[Deck] 12 Post

[mykatdied]

what's up with cards like Skyshroud Blessing or maybe Spiritual Asylum for GW?
Are there any other shroud / hexproof lands cards out there?

Seems very interesting. Both seem relatively viable. Personally I have enjoyed running sacred ground to shut off wasteland, then you get needles to shut off ports. I think asylum is probably better out of the 2 since blessing is a 1 time effect that essentially the same effect as sacred ground when it comes to shutting off wasteland. But I think asylum is a better possibility since it also protects your creatures and can shut off wasteland and port until you're ready to stomp your opponent's face in. My only issue is that at 4 mana a lot of the time you are running off a post or 2 and can probably just cast a titan. At that point you usually just win anyway. Definitely solid ideas though. It's nice to shut off wasteland when you go get an eye of ugin since that can slow you down immensely. Again, I still think it is slow and sacred ground comes down turn 2 and essentially nullifies wasteland. Port can be played around using candels.

[TheBoozeCube]

Yes, the trade-off is fundamentally late-game relevance for early-game impact and it's the latter that I want more of. The late-game impact of "1G, Draw a card" has been minimal most of the time - I would rather have had Moment's Peaces in many of the same situations. You raise some valid concerns, but I want to see how they play out in actual games. It's definitely possible for Exploration to turn out worse, and maybe my perspective is just skewed by playing against a lot of combo recently.

This.

Exploration is one of the absolute best cards to see in your opening hand and usually the absolute worst card you can topdeck after T3. Explore is a much better topdeck, since at worst it just cycles to replace itself, but the difference in explosiveness between G and 1G is very significant, as well as being a persistent effect. Personally, I prefer the explosiveness of Exploration because I think it gives monogreen a much-needed boost in racing combo.


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[Morden]

Seems very interesting. Both seem relatively viable. Personally I have enjoyed running sacred ground to shut off wasteland, then you get needles to shut off ports. I think asylum is probably better out of the 2 since blessing is a 1 time effect that essentially the same effect as sacred ground when it comes to shutting off wasteland. But I think asylum is a better possibility since it also protects your creatures and can shut off wasteland and port until you're ready to stomp your opponent's face in. My only issue is that at 4 mana a lot of the time you are running off a post or 2 and can probably just cast a titan. At that point you usually just win anyway. Definitely solid ideas though. It's nice to shut off wasteland when you go get an eye of ugin since that can slow you down immensely. Again, I still think it is slow and sacred ground comes down turn 2 and essentially nullifies wasteland. Port can be played around using candels.

in general, I prefer sacred ground too. Asylum could be nice, in response to wasteland makes the opponent waste a land and we draw a card. But i don't want to keep open mana in case of wasteland.....mostly on early game. That's why I have one sacred ground in sideboard: against deck with a lot of wasteland and a lot of target for needle, sacred is like a 5th needle. 2cc, fast and very efficent. The only disadvantage is that it can be destroy by decay,Skyshroud Blessing can't. but it's ok, he has to find a decay, "waste" it on sacred (candelabra, needle, sylvan lybrary are happy), find a wasteland......
I find Asylum horrible? 4cc? with TWO white? to protect our lands? Toooooo slow......ok, it protects our creatures....do we really need this? I don't think so.

anyway, good news and hope for all of us. I played this deck, monoG version (splash with a little of white) in a local tournament....I found a Omnitell :D :D :D
g1, on the draw:
-oppo: island.
-me: verdant catacomb, pass. his brainstorm eot.
-oppo: city, S&T. I had on titan in hand...he put emrakul!!!! looool, titan for karakas and gg. "I never thought you were a 12post!!!"

g2, on the draw. Side in: 2 trinisphere, 1 sphere of resistance, 1 gaddock, 1 choke, 1 carpet of flowers, 1 reclamation sage, 1 krosan grip. Let's make a difficult game for omni......
-oppo: island, ponder.
-me: I kept with trini in hand. Forest, carpet of flowers.
-oppo: island, preordain, ponder.
-me: cloudpost, sensei, countered.
-oppo: island, S&T. He put omni, I put trini, it's blocked.
-me: cloudpost, tap the first cloud, 2 mana, tap forest, 3, use carpet, 6, titan. Force of will? wait, trini :P gg.

Of course, I had luck, but also opponent had show on turn 3 on both games!!! Sideboarding 8 cards is heavy for omni.....and they are all cards great also with other matchups (spheres for burn and storm, gaddok for miracles/mud, carpet for every blue, choke for merfolks, sage and grip for bloodmoon, entangling bridge, sensei, mud.....)

[mykatdied]

What does your sideboard look like overall? I like the way it sounds. I've been considering adding thalia and canonist to my board since they both nerf omnitell a lot.

[Morden]

What does your sideboard look like overall? I like the way it sounds. I've been considering adding thalia and canonist to my board since they both nerf omnitell a lot.

i had them, but since I want to optimize as much as possible my sideboard, I prefer 2 trinispheres, used also against burn. Creatures against burn are not so usefull.....My complete sideboard is:
2 trini
1 sphere
1 choke
1 carpet
1 gaddock
1 reclamation
1 krosan
1 pithing needle
1 sacred ground
2 rest in peace: soooo usefull against a lot of deck. Obviously graveyard deck but also tarmo, deathrite shaman, loam.....
1 engineered explosives: monastery miracle, grixis, storm with empty the warrens, delvers....
1 obstinate baloth: against shardless bug or pox is incredible. Turn 3 liliana? thanks, 4 life. I'd remove it, but I don't find anything better against something that target me. The baloth is the sobstitute for leyline of sanctity against black (trini is against red).....if you find something better, please tell me!! (no true beliver or something like this, they die so easily.....also cc>2 is useless, oppo has already hit me twice at lest)
1 dark depths: this is an experiment. I don't know, I had a tournament last sunday and it was usefull only against grixis.....I don't like stage+depths combo in general, to slow and to fragile. Maybe I will remove it for an elephant grass, on that tournament I died badly against an army of tarmo or delver -_- (I won against grixis, miracle, goblins, omnitell and lost against shardless, 4cdelver, jund).

[mykatdied]

i had them, but since I want to optimize as much as possible my sideboard, I prefer 2 trinispheres, used also against burn. Creatures against burn are not so usefull.....My complete sideboard is:
2 trini
1 sphere
1 choke
1 carpet
1 gaddock
1 reclamation
1 krosan
1 pithing needle
1 sacred ground
2 rest in peace
1 engineered explosives
1 obstinate baloth
1 dark depths

A few 1 of creatures, I'm assuming your main includes GSZ? I like the sideboard overall. Personally I tested with e tutor and CoP red, o-ring and a few other tutor targets to handle burn, omni, etc. I considered running elephant grass as well because of mentor miracles and delver decks. But I ultimately dropped it all since I never really wanted to have the e tutor package.

[Morden]

yeah, only 1 gsz, it's a fifth titan or ramp for oracle. No dryad sadly, I have no room for it.
You gave me a great suggestion with Etutor!! Main, now. I had scroll rack before, together with 2sensei, 1mirri's guile,1 sylvan library, as "cards that help me to get the right card at the right moment". But scroll is great only before 3rd turn, when you have a lot of cards to switch....with Etutor I have a LOT of things to search!! CANDELABRA, WURMCOIL, OBLIVION STONE, map, sensei, NEEDLE, sylvan library, mirri's guile.....and more than half of sideboard! I will test absolutely.
I had Cop red in sideboard, but burn decks are very few in my local meta (4 decks on 60 more or less), but also in general you don't see a lot of them. So I prefer remove it, also if is gg with burn (if you find it before die).

[maCHOOga]

I had Cop red in sideboard, but burn decks are very few in my local meta (4 decks on 60 more or less), but also in general you don't see a lot of them. So I prefer remove it, also if is gg with burn (if you find it before die).

Ironically Legacy burn is slowed down by COP: Red, while modern burn isn't. I guess there are times when having burn better than skullcrack and atarka's command is helpful! I've also been threating to try Sanctimony against Burn in modern, which also may have applications here as well. Works well if opponent bloodmoons you too lol. :-)

Another enlightened tutor target is platinum emperion. It takes burn 3 spells to kill it and storm can't win when it's on the table.

[k_omega]

i had them, but since I want to optimize as much as possible my sideboard, I prefer 2 trinispheres, used also against burn. Creatures against burn are not so usefull.....My complete sideboard is:
2 trini
1 sphere
1 choke
1 carpet
1 gaddock
1 reclamation
1 krosan
1 pithing needle
1 sacred ground
2 rest in peace
1 engineered explosives
1 obstinate baloth
1 dark depths

How many white sources + fetches do you use? When I had a similar sideboard I had Karakas + 1 Savannah + 3 fetches which seemed a little less than enough to have W on T2 when I want it. I actually cut the white splash in my current build to avoid this problem and make room for a second maindeck Cavern of Souls.

[Morden]

How many white sources + fetches do you use? When I had a similar sideboard I had Karakas + 1 Savannah + 3 fetches which seemed a little less than enough to have W on T2 when I want it. I actually cut the white splash in my current build to avoid this problem and make room for a second maindeck Cavern of Souls.

1 karakas + 2 savannah + 3 forest + 4 fetches, this are my GW sources (no dryad). Based on my games, I had no problem to get white source early (against blue deck there is also carpet of flowers that can be considered as white source).

[Mockingbird]

So we got our first Battle for Zendikar spoiler today, and it's a new Eldrazi.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/arcana/duel-decks-zendikar-vs-eldrazi-packaging-2015-07-29

Oblivion Sower :6:
When you cast Oblivion Sower, target opponent exiles the top four cards of his or her library, then you may put any number of land cards that player owns from exile onto the battlefield under your control.
5/8

First, hooray for the return of cast triggers. Second, Oblivion Sower steals ALL target opponent's exiled lands, which may mean that the running theme for Eldrazi may have shifted from field obliteration through annihilator to library obliteration.

[mykatdied]

So we got our first Battle for Zendikar spoiler today, and it's a new Eldrazi.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/arcana/duel-decks-zendikar-vs-eldrazi-packaging-2015-07-29

Oblivion Sower :6:
When you cast Oblivion Sower, target opponent exiles the top four cards of his or her library, then you may put any number of land cards that player owns from exile onto the battlefield under your control.
5/8

First, hooray for the return of cast triggers. Second, Oblivion Sower steals ALL target opponent's exiled lands, which may mean that the running theme for Eldrazi may have shifted from field obliteration through annihilator to library obliteration.

I'll be interested to see the legendary eldrazi cast triggers and if they keep annihilator or if they continue with something like this. I would love to see a legendary eldrazi with trample.

[Morden]

So we got our first Battle for Zendikar spoiler today, and it's a new Eldrazi.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/arcana/duel-decks-zendikar-vs-eldrazi-packaging-2015-07-29

Oblivion Sower :6:
When you cast Oblivion Sower, target opponent exiles the top four cards of his or her library, then you may put any number of land cards that player owns from exile onto the battlefield under your control.
5/8

First, hooray for the return of cast triggers. Second, Oblivion Sower steals ALL target opponent's exiled lands, which may mean that the running theme for Eldrazi may have shifted from field obliteration through annihilator to library obliteration.

nice, but I don't think is usefull in 12post. It could be interesting to have on our control lands (fetches) that opponent put into exile thanks to dig, deathrite and similiar.....but I hope for better Eldrazi.
A "colorless Iona", for example :D.

:7: Players can't cast colored spells.
7/7

this will be very nice and themed with the eldrazis' flavour

[TheBoozeCube]

So we got our first Battle for Zendikar spoiler today, and it's a new Eldrazi.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/arcana/duel-decks-zendikar-vs-eldrazi-packaging-2015-07-29

Oblivion Sower :6:
When you cast Oblivion Sower, target opponent exiles the top four cards of his or her library, then you may put any number of land cards that player owns from exile onto the battlefield under your control.
5/8

First, hooray for the return of cast triggers. Second, Oblivion Sower steals ALL target opponent's exiled lands, which may mean that the running theme for Eldrazi may have shifted from field obliteration through annihilator to library obliteration.

I don't see this guy making the cut (unless 12 Post becomes prevalent enough online to make him SB mirror tech, lol). I'm sad that annihilator is gone, but hopefully the new versions of Kozilek, Ulamog, and Emrakul will be playable. As a mythic, this guy seems underwhelming.

Oddly enough, what I'd really like to see out of BFZ isn't even more Eldrazi. It's more ETB lands to fill our toolbox.


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[TimHarding]

I don't see this guy making the cut (unless 12 Post becomes prevalent enough online to make him SB mirror tech, lol). I'm sad that annihilator is gone, but hopefully the new versions of Kozilek, Ulamog, and Emrakul will be playable. As a mythic, this guy seems underwhelming.

Oddly enough, what I'd really like to see out of BFZ isn't even more Eldrazi. It's more ETB lands to fill our toolbox.


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My exact thoughts haha. It's really hard to imagine anything more over the top than Emrakul, but I said that about other creatures before...

I want more ETB's or better: a non-basic fetch land. This could be a great fall for Turbo Eldrazi!

[Darkenslight]

So we got our first Battle for Zendikar spoiler today, and it's a new Eldrazi.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/arcana/duel-decks-zendikar-vs-eldrazi-packaging-2015-07-29

Oblivion Sower :6:
When you cast Oblivion Sower, target opponent exiles the top four cards of his or her library, then you may put any number of land cards that player owns from exile onto the battlefield under your control.
5/8

First, hooray for the return of cast triggers. Second, Oblivion Sower steals ALL target opponent's exiled lands, which may mean that the running theme for Eldrazi may have shifted from field obliteration through annihilator to library obliteration.

Don't forget - this is also relevant against Delve cards like Tasigur, the Golden Fang, with which lands are usually the Delve fodder.

[Morden]

I thought the same, but in the opponent's graveyard there will be only fetches (or wasteland), it's not so useful to get some fetches that can't get forests.

[mykatdied]

Hitting a couple wastelands with it could be neat against some of the greedy mana bases. Could be enough to cripple them if we don't have needle up. Then again getting to six mana without needle on wasteland can be tough.

[Morden]

Then again getting to six mana without needle on wasteland can be tough.

^this

[TheBoozeCube]

I've been doing a bit of testing with Animist's Awakening in monogreen. It's still too early to really tell whether the card actually deserves a slot over Exploration (or something else), but it's been pretty solid so far. One key thing that I've noticed is just how critical spell mastery is.

Between Crop Rotation and Ancient Stirrings, spell mastery isn't awful to turn on (although the instant/sorcery count is too low to be truly reliable). And when it's on, Animist's Awakening is incredibly powerful. Most importantly, it's effectively a free spell when you hit a Post or two, and can sometimes even straight-up net you mana immediately. I will definitely continue testing with this card.

[MechTactical]

let's just hope that the 12 post / turbo eldrazi gets new playable cards with BFZ! Although i bet my candelabra that We're all going to be disappointed. Wizards seems intent on pumping out crap cards in recent releases... i have a full box of cards from recent sets that i'm thinking of just giving out to the needy mtg players...
anyway I stopped all my purchases until we see what’s in this (hopefully) not crappy set.

[Rock Lee]

Have been messing with a revamp on an old build. The card spread is still pretty wildly variant. I want to fit at least one, if not two candelabras into this build. Also a mid range eldrazi is probably merited with the candelabra addition.

// Lands
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
2 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [A] Island (1)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [CHK] Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 [TSP] Vesuva

// Creatures
3 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
3 [M10] Hive Mind
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [MMA] Summoner's Pact
3 [US] Show and Tell
2 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [TSP] Trickbind
2 [SC] Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [UL] Crop Rotation
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [MMA] Engineered Explosives

[Rock Lee]

Went undefeated in 5 rounds with this week's legacy local. Super mvp was Trickbind. Matchups of reanimator, aggro loam, and elves /w shaman of the pack which have been ugly until trickbind were handled today with "relative" ease. Best trickbinds were a chalice @ 1 trigger and a cumulative upkeep trigger.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [OD] Island (4)
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [RLM] Vesuva
1 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [US] Show and Tell
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
3 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [TSP] Wipe Away
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 2 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm

[TimHarding]

Went undefeated in 5 rounds with this week's legacy local. Super mvp was Trickbind. Matchups of reanimator, aggro loam, and elves /w shaman of the pack which have been ugly until trickbind were handled today with "relative" ease. Best trickbinds were a chalice @ 1 trigger and a cumulative upkeep trigger.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [OD] Island (4)
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [RLM] Vesuva
1 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [US] Show and Tell
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
3 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [TSP] Wipe Away
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 2 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm

Sweet list, I've been loving Stifle quite a bit too. The effect is great beyond wasteland (similar to needle). Note worthy is the SB trinisphere, I side that in vs almost everything and it totally wins games out of nowhere!

RIP repeal </3

[maCHOOga]

Went undefeated in 5 rounds with this week's legacy local. Super mvp was Trickbind. Matchups of reanimator, aggro loam, and elves /w shaman of the pack which have been ugly until trickbind were handled today with "relative" ease. Best trickbinds were a chalice @ 1 trigger and a cumulative upkeep trigger.


Does this mean no more miracles for Rock Lee? I'm just itching to sleeve up my favorite legacy deck again (being this one!).
I mean miracles is the largest part of the metagame. I just always seem to run into Storm or Omnitell these days. Those matchups are still abysmal right?

Repeal has just been upgraded to wipe away. :smile:

[Rock Lee]

Does this mean no more miracles for Rock Lee? I'm just itching to sleeve up my favorite legacy deck again (being this one!).
I mean miracles is the largest part of the metagame. I just always seem to run into Storm or Omnitell these days. Those matchups are still abysmal right?

Repeal has just been upgraded to wipe away. :smile:

Trickbind and Wipe Away are both direct reactions to storm and omni. Both cards give you a fighting chance and then some.

Floating a Trickbind with top game 1 is almost always game over for storm. Wipe away on a land vs Infernal Tutor almost always screws their plan hard, which compliments the crop rotation for Bojuka Bog plan.

Trickbind on Emrakul extra turn when you've put in an eldrazi is often game over for Omni. Putting in a Primeval Titan is even better of course. Worst case, Omni will always give you a free land via Show & Tell for the 3rd mana on Wipe away, so then mana fixing is the only concern.


Miracles is a great deck, but key approaches (dealing with miracle trigger) and cards in the format (Krosan Grip) completely destroy it, thus leading to its newer iterations of Monastary mentor.deck.

[Kirika]

Went undefeated in 5 rounds with this week's legacy local. Super mvp was Trickbind. Matchups of reanimator, aggro loam, and elves /w shaman of the pack which have been ugly until trickbind were handled today with "relative" ease. Best trickbinds were a chalice @ 1 trigger and a cumulative upkeep trigger.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [OD] Island (4)
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [RLM] Vesuva
1 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [US] Show and Tell
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
3 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [TSP] Wipe Away
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 2 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm

List looks awesome except versus Delver or Burn. How is the Delver match up without Repeal and Moment's Peace?



Does this mean no more miracles for Rock Lee? I'm just itching to sleeve up my favorite legacy deck again (being this one!).
I mean miracles is the largest part of the metagame. I just always seem to run into Storm or Omnitell these days. Those matchups are still abysmal right?

Repeal has just been upgraded to wipe away. :smile:

I always found the most abysmal match up was Burn. You could float flusterstorm with Top to beat Storm and like Rock Lee said Trickbind can beat Omni.

[Ponders]

Sweet list, I've been loving Stifle quite a bit too. The effect is great beyond wasteland (similar to needle). Note worthy is the SB trinisphere, I side that in vs almost everything and it totally wins games out of nowhere!

RIP repeal </3

I'm still pretty stuck on this list. Amethyst seems to be the flex slot. I don't mind running it mainboard, storm and omni being big problems. Somewhat useful against control. I've tried map, daze, exploration, needle in its place. It would probably benefit from 1 more Tropical/fetch/forest, but its close. Usually I mulligan to colored mana with land protection, or fetchland to buy a couple turns if need.

Candelabra 3x
Sensei 3x
Thorn of Amethyst 4x

Emrakul
Koz
Ulamog
Primeval Titan 4x

Brainstorm 4x
Force 4x
Stifle 4x
Crop 3x

4 Cloud
4 Glimmer
4 Vesuva
Bog
Karakas
Tabernacle
Glacial
Eye of Ugin
2 Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta

1x Ugin the Spirit Dragon


Sideboard
4x Surgical
4x Misdirection

7 - undecided

[Morden]

I'm still pretty stuck on this list. Amethyst seems to be the flex slot. I don't mind running it mainboard, storm and omni being big problems. Somewhat useful against control. I've tried map, daze, exploration, needle in its place. It would probably benefit from 1 more Tropical/fetch/forest, but its close. Usually I mulligan to colored mana with land protection, or fetchland to buy a couple turns if need.

Candelabra 3x
Sensei 3x
Thorn of Amethyst 4x

Emrakul
Koz
Ulamog
Primeval Titan 4x

Brainstorm 4x
Force 4x
Stifle 4x
Crop 3x

4 Cloud
4 Glimmer
4 Vesuva
Bog
Karakas
Tabernacle
Glacial
Eye of Ugin
2 Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta

1x Ugin the Spirit Dragon


Sideboard
4x Surgical
4x Misdirection

7 - undecided

why thorn and not sphere of resistance? the difference is minimal to you, but you'll have better matchup vs goblin, elves, D&T, merfolks and so on.

[maCHOOga]

I always found the most abysmal match up was Burn. You could float flusterstorm with Top to beat Storm and like Rock Lee said Trickbind can beat Omni.

Agreed. I've beat it a few times, usually at 1-5 life. Other times, I've taken 24 from price into price. LoL.

[Rock Lee]

Agreed. I've beat it a few times, usually at 1-5 life. Other times, I've taken 24 from price into price. LoL.

Plat emperion and blue elemental blasts are there primarily for burn. I haven't had problems with burn with this build. Whenever I drop BeB and a relevant robot from the main/side I have issues, but with emperion I have an undefeated record vs burn. (hubris)

Chasm is always huge, and being able to Show & tell -> Titan -> Chasm is already a primary plan of yours.

[Ponders]

why thorn and not sphere of resistance? the difference is minimal to you, but you'll have better matchup vs goblin, elves, D&T, merfolks and so on.

Honestly I hadn't thought of it. That's an excellent suggestion, and I'll try it out. An omni wrecker either way.

[Ponders]

I don't see this guy making the cut (unless 12 Post becomes prevalent enough online to make him SB mirror tech, lol). I'm sad that annihilator is gone, but hopefully the new versions of Kozilek, Ulamog, and Emrakul will be playable. As a mythic, this guy seems underwhelming.

Oddly enough, what I'd really like to see out of BFZ isn't even more Eldrazi. It's more ETB lands to fill our toolbox.


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Seems like I get wrecked by Jace using the boozepost.

[Morden]

Agreed. I've beat it a few times, usually at 1-5 life. Other times, I've taken 24 from price into price. LoL.

oh, sad story :( . I NEVER win on g1 against burn, with my monogreen build. On turn 3 I'm already at 10-12 life points.....My only chance is wurmcoil engine, that can enter on turn 3-4, but if he plays sulfuric vortex is useless.
Crop into chasm saves me only for a couple of turns....with titans I cannot attack, with sulfuric glimmerpost is useless, I continue to lose life points and when I sac chasm, he hits me with EVERYTHING he has on hand.
:( :( :(
g2 is a little different with spheres and circle of protection, but I'd like some better chances on g1 :(

[Rock Lee]

oh, sad story :( . I NEVER win on g1 against burn, with my monogreen build. On turn 3 I'm already at 10-12 life points.....My only chance is wurmcoil engine, that can enter on turn 3-4, but if he plays sulfuric vortex is useless.
Crop into chasm saves me only for a couple of turns....with titans I cannot attack, with sulfuric glimmerpost is useless, I continue to lose life points and when I sac chasm, he hits me with EVERYTHING he has on hand.
:( :( :(
g2 is a little different with spheres and circle of protection, but I'd like some better chances on g1 :(

Strongly suggest krosan grip, seal of primordium, or nature's claim against them. your best lifegain cards.

[Morden]

Mainboard? I don't think they deserve a place......sideboard ok. Probably I must accept that g1 against burn is always a loss.....not a big deal, g2 with CoP and white tutor it's hard for him :cool:

[k_omega]

oh, sad story :( . I NEVER win on g1 against burn, with my monogreen build. On turn 3 I'm already at 10-12 life points.....My only chance is wurmcoil engine, that can enter on turn 3-4, but if he plays sulfuric vortex is useless.
Crop into chasm saves me only for a couple of turns....with titans I cannot attack, with sulfuric glimmerpost is useless, I continue to lose life points and when I sac chasm, he hits me with EVERYTHING he has on hand.
:( :( :(
g2 is a little different with spheres and circle of protection, but I'd like some better chances on g1 :(

I've won several game ones with mono-green against Burn by going for a quick Ugin, immediately exiling their board, and using him to control their permanents while (usually) working toward the ultimate to slam multiple titans, all of which can be done with Chasm in play. Ugin also answers later Sulfuric Vortices, and if they want to kill him after you wipe the board it takes at least two spells. Granted, the hands to enable this strategy don't always materialize and you sometimes have to tap out for Ugin and hope not to get Priced on the spot.

I've also won by using Karakas+Ulamog to blow up all their lands before letting the Chasm go.

[mykatdied]

I've won several game ones with mono-green against Burn by going for a quick Ugin, immediately exiling their board, and using him to control their permanents while (usually) working toward the ultimate to slam multiple titans, all of which can be done with Chasm in play. Ugin also answers later Sulfuric Vortices, and if they want to kill him after you wipe the board it takes at least two spells. Granted, the hands to enable this strategy don't always materialize and you sometimes have to tap out for Ugin and hope not to get Priced on the spot.

I've also won by using Karakas+Ulamog to blow up all their lands before letting the Chasm go.

I have had 1 or 2 similar experiences against burn. I would honestly say that ugin is a great thing to drop. Especially when you can follow up with a titan. My only real preboard wins involved titan, swing with titan, natural order out titan for another. Then casting Emrakul and going infinite. But this all involved one price.

[Morden]

I know guys that if we reach 8 mana is easier, but in my experience I die before reach them XD. I have no natural order or show&tell, so I'm always toooo slow for burn.
t1: mountain, swiftspear (19)
t2: mountain, bolt bolt attack (10)
t3: vortex, eidolon, everything kills me XD
I searched a lot, there is no card (only wurmcoil) that is good on g1 vs burn and that fits with the idea of the deck.
I tried Energy Storm, thinking also to delvers, but against a lot of matchup is completely useless.

[Darkenslight]

I know guys that if we reach 8 mana is easier, but in my experience I die before reach them XD. I have no natural order or show&tell, so I'm always toooo slow for burn.
t1: mountain, swiftspear (19)
t2: mountain, bolt bolt attack (10)
t3: vortex, eidolon, everything kills me XD
I searched a lot, there is no card (only wurmcoil) that is good on g1 vs burn and that fits with the idea of the deck.
I tried Energy Storm, thinking also to delvers, but against a lot of matchup is completely useless.

Elephant Grass?

[Morden]

Elephant Grass?
yep, I have one in sideboard, but burn can beat me easily also without creatures, with 4 price of progress.

[Rock Lee]

yep, I have one in sideboard, but burn can beat me easily also without creatures, with 4 price of progress.

my best answers against burn is blue (show and tell, beb, counters along with fixing ala brainstorm). This is one of the many reasons mono green is weaker compared to U/G.

[Morden]

my best answers against burn is blue (show and tell, beb, counters along with fixing ala brainstorm). This is one of the many reasons mono green is weaker compared to U/G.

I think the same. Monogreen can ramp, ok, but you'll never be faster than a S&T on third turn. The problem with S&T now is that the meta (at least, my local meta) is full of omnitell, so playing that card is not the best idea.....

[drude1]

I think the same. Monogreen can ramp, ok, but you'll never be faster than a S&T on third turn. The problem with S&T now is that the meta (at least, my local meta) is full of omnitell, so playing that card is not the best idea.....

Actually, I feel like the mono green version has some distinct advantages over blue-green against burn. First, let me preface this by saying I play Eureka main. So, I am one turn slower than show and tell at getting fattys out but my fatties can be multiple and can include Ugin. Secondly I can cast mine with all basics, (I run 5 forest and 4 fetches) so PoP is less of a problem. I really think the only advantage of the U/G build is FoW against combo game one. Granted, brainstorm is a card and does obviously help with card selection. For that reason I also choose to run 4 x top and the fetches for extra shuffle effect.
I'm certainly not saying that U/G is bad, but each version has its advantages. I feel that mono green is much less vulnerable to wastelands, especially recurrent wasteland strategies like aggro-loam. It also has the potential to ramp faster and is less likely to have dead cards due to color-screw. I am doing very well with my mono-green list online. Although I am still having problems with tempo strategies such as delver.


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[Morden]

yeah, in general I feel that without S&T/eureka/natural order some games are impossible, basically before third turn I put no menace on board. I will think how to speed up my deck......

[Ponders]

Actually, I feel like the mono green version has some distinct advantages over blue-green against burn. First, let me preface this by saying I play Eureka main. So, I am one turn slower than show and tell at getting fattys out but my fatties can be multiple and can include Ugin. Secondly I can cast mine with all basics, (I run 5 forest and 4 fetches) so PoP is less of a problem. I really think the only advantage of the U/G build is FoW against combo game one. Granted, brainstorm is a card and does obviously help with card selection. For that reason I also choose to run 4 x top and the fetches for extra shuffle effect.
I'm certainly not saying that U/G is bad, but each version has its advantages. I feel that mono green is much less vulnerable to wastelands, especially recurrent wasteland strategies like aggro-loam. It also has the potential to ramp faster and is less likely to have dead cards due to color-screw. I am doing very well with my mono-green list online. Although I am still having problems with tempo strategies such as delver.


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I don't find FOW to be that valuable against combo at all. With them, the post deck is still just counter-lite and combo decks counter over you, or take it out of your hand if you're playing against storm. I still believe the card has a place maindeck though I'm not sure its the best fit. I've been using it as an early play against the first threat, and very rarely do I find myself using it to jam a titan. (Repeal maybe?) Still, you can't stop every chalice on 1 or blood moon. BEB is probably a good fit in the sideboard, and something I should be playing, that leaves 3 cards undecided and my first thought is pithing needle because recursive decks suck.

[mykatdied]

Actually, I feel like the mono green version has some distinct advantages over blue-green against burn. First, let me preface this by saying I play Eureka main. So, I am one turn slower than show and tell at getting fattys out but my fatties can be multiple and can include Ugin. Secondly I can cast mine with all basics, (I run 5 forest and 4 fetches) so PoP is less of a problem. I really think the only advantage of the U/G build is FoW against combo game one. Granted, brainstorm is a card and does obviously help with card selection. For that reason I also choose to run 4 x top and the fetches for extra shuffle effect.
I'm certainly not saying that U/G is bad, but each version has its advantages. I feel that mono green is much less vulnerable to wastelands, especially recurrent wasteland strategies like aggro-loam. It also has the potential to ramp faster and is less likely to have dead cards due to color-screw. I am doing very well with my mono-green list online. Although I am still having problems with tempo strategies such as delver.


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Forest, cloudpost, glimmer post = eureka fast as show and tell. So technically you don't have to be slower than show and tell. If you are running explore you can also just cast a titan turn 3 with 2 cloudpost. In all fairness titan doesn't get hit with spell pierce or flusterstorm and can be cast off cavern to avoid counter magic. So you can be much more effective that way rather than using show and tell. I had a lot of wins off the back of plays such as that. Even against burn hitting a price.

[Rock Lee]

My recent list. doing quite well with it.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [OD] Island (4)
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [RLM] Vesuva
1 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [US] Show and Tell
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
3 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [GP] Repeal
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 2 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [NPH] Dismember
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere

[Morden]

My recent list. doing quite well with it.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [OD] Island (4)
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [RLM] Vesuva
1 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [US] Show and Tell
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
3 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [GP] Repeal
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 2 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [NPH] Dismember
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere

really like it. The only thing that I'd change is the relic of progenitus: why do you prefer it and not Bojuka bog? Only one, crop in case of emergency, and copy with vesuva.

[Morden]

yeah, in general I feel that without S&T/eureka/natural order some games are impossible, basically before third turn I put no menace on board. I will think how to speed up my deck......

Hunting grounds !!!! oh guys, I really wanna test this.....

[mykatdied]

really like it. The only thing that I'd change is the relic of progenitus: why do you prefer it and not Bojuka bog? Only one, crop in case of emergency, and copy with vesuva.

He has a bog. Relic is probably to combat the increasing number of lands deck, dig through time, anglers in grixis, etc. It also cantrips in dead match ups.

[mykatdied]

Hunting grounds !!!! oh guys, I really wanna test this.....

Threshold is a draw back from what I can see. Although interested to see if that is a good reason to play a couple extra fetchlands and maps to get it online.

[Postman]

He has a bog. Relic is probably to combat the increasing number of lands deck, dig through time, anglers in grixis, etc. It also cantrips in dead match ups.
This, plus it offers "draw a card", just like SDT. So you can hide your Trickbind against Storm, draw when it's needed without putting SDT on top of library... And of course great against DRS and Goyf etc

[Rock Lee]

really like it. The only thing that I'd change is the relic of progenitus: why do you prefer it and not Bojuka bog? Only one, crop in case of emergency, and copy with vesuva.

Relic is there entirely for Dig through Time and Deathrite shaman. Sadly bojuka bog doesn't work well for either of these purposes. Relic however is excellent in this regard. The only reason I still am carrying bojuka bog is to give me the threat against storm and reanimator for them to not go all-in on turn 1-2 before I can get trickbind online.

I have been alternating between 2 and 3 relic of progenitus in my build. 2 is the lowest I would go in a dig through time saturated meta.

::EDIT:: Hah Postman and Kat replied while I was taking my time replying. Approve.

[Morden]

Threshold is a draw back from what I can see. Although interested to see if that is a good reason to play a couple extra fetchlands and maps to get it online.

my post disappeared....... I tried, hunting sucks. I tried a classical approach. Removed 1 gsz, 1 oracle, 1 explore for 3 exploration. Not bad. We know, exploration on first turns is huge. If it appears late nevermind.... (also oracle and explore are not so great on late play; gsz is, but I have only titans to tutor, and with 4 of them I always see one of them). I still lose sometimes by lack of green mana..... 3 forests, 2 savannahs and 4 fetches are not enough?? :( I will probably add 1 forest and remove ...... I don't know :(

[drude1]

Hunting grounds is interesting. I think you would need to build your deck around that card more, but you could make it work. You obviously would want to up your creature count and up your count of cards that go into the yard. This makes exploration worse but maps, fetches, explores, crop rotations, etc certainly help with threshold.
Could maybe play as a 1-2 of with enlightened tutors in a SB for certain MUs.


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[Morden]

you're right. The point is exactly this: we have to build a deck around hunting grounds. I don't know, maybe it will work, but it's not what I searched for my deck: speed.

[Hencules]

Cool new colored Eldrazi creatures are coming:

http://www.magicspoiler.com/zendikar-vs-eldrazi/

When is Primeval titan reprinted for colorless mana?

[MechTactical]

Cool new colored Eldrazi creatures are coming:

http://www.magicspoiler.com/zendikar-vs-eldrazi/

When is Primeval titan reprinted for colorless mana?

cool new eldrazi creatures, where? i can't see any yet... let's just keep hoping...

[Hencules]

cool new eldrazi creatures, where? i can't see any yet... let's just keep hoping...

Forerunner of slaughter has no function for us, but it is a new eldrazi.

[Zotmaster]

I take a few months' break from Magic and come back to find Rock Lee playing Trickbind? I'm so happy I could cry :)

It hasn't been mentioned in at least several months, so any thoughts on possibly running Arcane Laboratory to fight against things like Omni?

[mykatdied]

I take a few months' break from Magic and come back to find Rock Lee playing Trickbind? I'm so happy I could cry :)

It hasn't been mentioned in at least several months, so any thoughts on possibly running Arcane Laboratory to fight against things like Omni?

There was brief conversation about laboratory and rule of law. The only issue with them for me is follow up. We need to have a follow up because omnitell can win by casting 1 card a turn within 2 turns.

[MtgVector]

My recent list. doing quite well with it.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [OD] Island (4)
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [RLM] Vesuva
1 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [US] Show and Tell
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
3 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [GP] Repeal
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 2 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [NPH] Dismember
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere

I had to refine your list for my meta (less burn, more Omni, more Storm), ended up -2 Trinisphere, -1 Beb, -3 Flusterstorm, +4 Sphere of Resistance, +1 Tabernacle, +1 Krosan Grip. I added the Tabernacle to slow down certain creature decks.

I'm very tempted to add a basic forest to the sideboard for Blood Moon. Also, I like your list with Wipe Away/Explosives than Repeal/Dismember.

[Ponders]

I've been thinking about strong openings. The type of card that makes people groan. Chalice on 1. Wasteland. Counterbalance. Post doesn't have a strong opening card that works to the tempo of the deck, near as I can tell. After pithing needle on wasteland, then what?

[Rock Lee]

I had to refine your list for my meta (less burn, more Omni, more Storm), ended up -2 Trinisphere, -1 Beb, -3 Flusterstorm, +4 Sphere of Resistance, +1 Tabernacle, +1 Krosan Grip. I added the Tabernacle to slow down certain creature decks.

I'm very tempted to add a basic forest to the sideboard for Blood Moon. Also, I like your list with Wipe Away/Explosives than Repeal/Dismember.

I don't understand at all how more storm more omni means you cut fluster, trinisphere and beb, all cards that come in against them all.

[MtgVector]

I don't understand at all how more storm more omni means you cut fluster, trinisphere and beb, all cards that come in against them all.

As background, I had been piloting a MUD version for the last few months, therefore I'm bringing some of its technology (spheres) to the UG version.

fluster is great vs omni, but I couldn't reliably use it vs storm, i.e. I was finding myself having to counter duresses with it than actually disrupting the combo. In omni, what spheres do, they just buy me time; trinishphere is better at this than spheres, but at 2-of I couldn't reliably find them. With spheres, I have the advantage that I can drop them earlier in the game, disrupting their cantrips/combo.

As a bonus, spheres come in vs. elves, a match up which I felt it was held by mostly chasm, but not strongly due to their multiple DRS.

I didn't really understand how to use beb, omni doesn't run red spells worth countering, unless they wish for a firemind's foresight as their only answer, but the thing is we don't put too much pressure on them, so they have multiple spells to cast in hand, and so that's just not a reliable answer vs them.

[Darkenslight]

As background, I had been piloting a MUD version for the last few months, therefore I'm bringing some of its technology (spheres) to the UG version.

fluster is great vs omni, but I couldn't reliably use it vs storm, i.e. I was finding myself having to counter duresses with it than actually disrupting the combo. In omni, what spheres do, they just buy me time; trinishphere is better at this than spheres, but at 2-of I couldn't reliably find them. With spheres, I have the advantage that I can drop them earlier in the game, disrupting their cantrips/combo.

As a bonus, spheres come in vs. elves, a match up which I felt it was held by mostly chasm, but not strongly due to their multiple DRS.

I didn't really understand how to use beb, omni doesn't run red spells worth countering, unless they wish for a firemind's foresight as their only answer, but the thing is we don't put too much pressure on them, so they have multiple spells to cast in hand, and so that's just not a reliable answer vs them.

That's where the Arcane LAboratory comes in.

[Rock Lee]

As background, I had been piloting a MUD version for the last few months, therefore I'm bringing some of its technology (spheres) to the UG version.

fluster is great vs omni, but I couldn't reliably use it vs storm, i.e. I was finding myself having to counter duresses with it than actually disrupting the combo. In omni, what spheres do, they just buy me time; trinishphere is better at this than spheres, but at 2-of I couldn't reliably find them. With spheres, I have the advantage that I can drop them earlier in the game, disrupting their cantrips/combo.

As a bonus, spheres come in vs. elves, a match up which I felt it was held by mostly chasm, but not strongly due to their multiple DRS.

I didn't really understand how to use beb, omni doesn't run red spells worth countering, unless they wish for a firemind's foresight as their only answer, but the thing is we don't put too much pressure on them, so they have multiple spells to cast in hand, and so that's just not a reliable answer vs them.

Omni sideboards pyromancers in most builds. Its their answer to excessive combo hate.

There are two methods to beat discard, one is hide your silver bullet with top/brainstorm, the other is to have too many cards to discard and they need to wait/plan. Crop/Fluster/Trickbind are your instant answers, 3sphere/relic/show & tell are your sorcery ones. that's 17 cards they need gone, 10 of which immediately stop their combo. Wipe away has been added to make this 12 as well.

imo sphere vs elves is weak. I have found trickbind into Ugin to be the vastly superior plan vs them, with trickbind protecting/prolonging cumulative upkeep.

[Morden]

I didn't think about it too much, but Chalice of the void on board (with 1 counter) is worst than a wasteland on early game. No exploration, no sensei, no stirrings, no crop, no tutor, no candelabra, no needle, I can do NOTHING. Just drop a land per turn, and of course die with no hopes.
In the past I had the temptation to remove 2 explore and make a playset of exploration (instead of 3), but since a lot of deck are using chalice (aggro loam, mud, some decks as side) I keep them. And also a 1x of sylvan library, absolutely.

[into_play]

I've been thinking of including either some Trinispheres or some Arcane Laboratories to drop in against Omni-Tell players' Show and Tells, but I'm undecided about which would be better. Does anyone have any thoughts about which of the two are better? Some pros and cons of each that I've thought of:

Trinisphere
Pros
Can potentially be cast on turn 2 if you so desired (Cloudpost turn 1, Glimmerpost turn 2)
Can severely hinder an opponent that is mana-screwed
Cons
If an opponent has six mana, they can still get two spells in

Arcane Laboratory
Pros
Adds to your blue card count for use with Force of Will
If you are playing counters, their non-Emrakul cards will definitely be countered by a counter you have in hand
Cons
Omni-Tell player can get a spell in on your turn (Cunning Wish or Dig Through Time), giving them twice as many spells as a Trinisphere out when they have less than six mana

Overall, I'm thinking that Trinisphere is probably the more powerful card with possibly more applications, but if anyone has any thoughts on this I would like to hear them.

In other news, I have been playing the BoozeCube list and the funky mono-brown Japanese list (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16587&iddeck=124169 for reference) at some small local weeklies and have been enjoying them a bunch. I think the lists emphasize our strengths in the fair matchups and make us even better off against anything non-combo. I also love Maze of Ith in these decks, as decks like Infect seem so much more simple than the traditional UG builds. I haven't seen much discussion at all about the Japanese lists on here, but I wish I could contact one of the pilots and ask them about some of the strange inclusions (Diamond Valley, WTF?).

As with every build that doesn't include blue, I feel like excluding blue leaves us handicapped. Show and Tell is the one thing that can threaten at least somewhat fast, and countermagic gives us a fighting chance against some of the holes in our strategy. I would never stray from UG when going to a serious tournament, as I feel that UG gives us the most complete deck for any situation. But the nonblue lists are fun and at times dominating.

[Drixx]

I've been thinking of including either some Trinispheres or some Arcane Laboratories to drop in against Omni-Tell players' Show and Tells, but I'm undecided about which would be better. Does anyone have any thoughts about which of the two are better? Some pros and cons of each that I've thought of:

Trinisphere
Pros
Can potentially be cast on turn 2 if you so desired (Cloudpost turn 1, Glimmerpost turn 2)
Can severely hinder an opponent that is mana-screwed
Cons
If an opponent has six mana, they can still get two spells in

Arcane Laboratory
Pros
Adds to your blue card count for use with Force of Will
If you are playing counters, their non-Emrakul cards will definitely be countered by a counter you have in hand
Cons
Omni-Tell player can get a spell in on your turn (Cunning Wish or Dig Through Time), giving them twice as many spells as a Trinisphere out when they have less than six mana

Overall, I'm thinking that Trinisphere is probably the more powerful card with possibly more applications, but if anyone has any thoughts on this I would like to hear them.

In other news, I have been playing the BoozeCube list and the funky mono-brown Japanese list (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16587&iddeck=124169 for reference) at some small local weeklies and have been enjoying them a bunch. I think the lists emphasize our strengths in the fair matchups and make us even better off against anything non-combo. I also love Maze of Ith in these decks, as decks like Infect seem so much more simple than the traditional UG builds. I haven't seen much discussion at all about the Japanese lists on here, but I wish I could contact one of the pilots and ask them about some of the strange inclusions (Diamond Valley, WTF?).

As with every build that doesn't include blue, I feel like excluding blue leaves us handicapped. Show and Tell is the one thing that can threaten at least somewhat fast, and countermagic gives us a fighting chance against some of the holes in our strategy. I would never stray from UG when going to a serious tournament, as I feel that UG gives us the most complete deck for any situation. But the nonblue lists are fun and at times dominating.

Hi i just prefer trinisphere too against mentor decks because of chaining sensei's and after they usually plays more pyroblasts and anyway what disenchant or removal they have it costs 3mana and is simply fine to move game to late turns also against omni when they probe you and they see trinisphere and krosan grip with some triger cards they usually can do nothing.

[maCHOOga]

Did anyone else spot the top 16 cloudpost deck from eternal weekend featuring 4 terminus, meddling mage & 1 tundra?

[MechTactical]

Did anyone else spot the top 16 cloudpost deck from eternal weekend featuring 4 terminus, meddling mage & 1 tundra?

Oh man... yes exactly this! why not emperion? the ugin plan screws our SnT plan – badly (I feel bad every time I see those 2 together…) ! why run ugin when we can just power SnT with emperion?? SnT titan is (if resolved) one of our strongest plays right? I think I’m leaning towards something similar at this point….

[TimHarding]

Did anyone else spot the top 16 cloudpost deck from eternal weekend featuring 4 terminus, meddling mage & 1 tundra?

Good for that player! Repeal hasn't been cutting it with SFM being MIA. Terminus is a powerful answer.

We need permanent based combo hate, and Meddling Mage is an excellent answer.

White splash to simply solve two current struggles in the current meta game! And it looks like it paid off!

[Zotmaster]

I've been thinking of including either some Trinispheres or some Arcane Laboratories to drop in against Omni-Tell players' Show and Tells, but I'm undecided about which would be better. Does anyone have any thoughts about which of the two are better? Some pros and cons of each that I've thought of:

For what it's worth, I prefer Trinisphere, although I've run it considerably more frequently than Arcane Laboratory when I've done my own builds. In a pinch, 3sphere can come in against any deck that has a really tight mana base: pretty much any deck except MUD, Miracles, and us. The thing I like most about it, though, is that over time it hurts us less and less. We just want to take "enough" turns to take over the game, and as we get to that point, I just don't care about 3 mana for an Expedition Map or Crop Rotation. In a sense it already sort of functions as an Arcane Laboratory in that with few exceptions, most players packing countermagic are probably only going to be able to cast one spell anyway, and if a Delver player somehow gets to six lands...are you really that upset?

[Rock Lee]

Did anyone else spot the top 16 cloudpost deck from eternal weekend featuring 4 terminus, meddling mage & 1 tundra?

I followed this player around and watched some of their games. Terminus is obviously a beast. I like the commitment to a tiny color splash. Saw them play against loads of grixis, which their build hoses. Also they had a Savannah as 2nd white source.

I have tested the deck both card for card and with adjustments I would make, and I still greatly prefer my version. This is what I ran day 2 of Eternal Weekend in the 40 Duel for Duals event. Missed top 8 on some incredibly unlucky draws (38 cards seen and zero titans/ 4 waste 3 stifle rug hands in first 7 turns Two times...)

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [OD] Island (4)
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ALA] Forest (1)
1 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [US] Show and Tell
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [MMA] Relic of Progenitus
3 [MMA] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 2 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [WWK] Nature's Claim

I have been loving nature's claim more and more with trickbind. Now I can repeal and nature's claim chalices. I also side in nature's claim against anything pressuring my life total that could possibly run null rod (Rug/BuG/Grixis) for the recuperative kill, or also life gain on my artifacts.

[deadlock]

White gives the deck strong options. I miss Ethersworn Canonist in the board. Would be funny to run him in the main, but he turns on enemy creature removal and can bad in non-combo matchups.
I also would tweak the maindeck. Repeal seems lackluster compared to Wipe Away or even Oblivion Stone.
No Expedition Map and the heavy Show and Tell commitment have to be discussed as well.

[Morden]

I followed this player around and watched some of their games. Terminus is obviously a beast. I like the commitment to a tiny color splash. Saw them play against loads of grixis, which their build hoses. Also they had a Savannah as 2nd white source.

I have tested the deck both card for card and with adjustments I would make, and I still greatly prefer my version. This is what I ran day 2 of Eternal Weekend in the 40 Duel for Duals event. Missed top 8 on some incredibly unlucky draws (38 cards seen and zero titans/ 4 waste 3 stifle rug hands in first 7 turns Two times...)

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [OD] Island (4)
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ALA] Forest (1)
1 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [US] Show and Tell
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [MMA] Relic of Progenitus
3 [MMA] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 2 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [WWK] Nature's Claim

I have been loving nature's claim more and more with trickbind. Now I can repeal and nature's claim chalices. I also side in nature's claim against anything pressuring my life total that could possibly run null rod (Rug/BuG/Grixis) for the recuperative kill, or also life gain on my artifacts.

I'm running a similiar list, trying to splash into blue and not white. Main difference is the presence of exploration, I love this card. A few question:
1) Did you consider to put a Reclamation sage instead a Krosan grip? Same effect, but A LOT better with Omnitell.
2) Why not Repeal? Tricks with that card and sensei/tabernacle are great, and is a nice defensive card and drawing card.
3) Should Trickbind replace needles against wasteland? Is not more effective to cast a needle, than stay with open mana fearing a waste?
4) 3 Engineered....3? what do you fear so much to put them mainboard?
5) Wouldn't be better to put an oblivion stone instead a Ugin? 1 and 1. Against mud ugin is useless, and oblivion is much faster.

[into_play]

For what it's worth, I prefer Trinisphere, although I've run it considerably more frequently than Arcane Laboratory when I've done my own builds. In a pinch, 3sphere can come in against any deck that has a really tight mana base: pretty much any deck except MUD, Miracles, and us. The thing I like most about it, though, is that over time it hurts us less and less. We just want to take "enough" turns to take over the game, and as we get to that point, I just don't care about 3 mana for an Expedition Map or Crop Rotation. In a sense it already sort of functions as an Arcane Laboratory in that with few exceptions, most players packing countermagic are probably only going to be able to cast one spell anyway, and if a Delver player somehow gets to six lands...are you really that upset?

Thank you for the input Zot! I think you convinced me to stick to the sphere. In the games where we would cast it, we will probably have dropped the one-mana artifacts in our hand by then. I actually think it could give Miracles some headaches at certain moments of the game, although I probably wouldn't bother to bring it in against them. And Laboratory could really hinder our explosive end-of-game plays (think drawing with Kozilek into Trinkets or even a Titan).



No Expedition Map and the heavy Show and Tell commitment have to be discussed as well.

For as long as I have been playing builds with blue, I have always ran four Show and Tell and have never wanted to cut even one of them. A three mana spell in a deck that otherwise hardcasts 6+ mana creatures is so unique in function and power for our deck. Against all the current Decks to Beat besides Omni-Tell, there is almost no drawback to attempt to cast one, and whatever monstrosity you put in will almost certainly be better than anything your opponent has. This player's list has three Platinum Emperions, so a heavy eight big creatures to dump into play must have worked even better with his four Show and Tells. Seriously people, play the fuck out of Show and Tell; you will regret not doing so if it ever gets banned.

Doing so well without Expedition Map is impressive, though he had less bullet lands than most (no Glacial Chasm, no Tabernacle, Bojuka Bog in the sideboard). I know a lot of people consider Map to be the jankiest card of the deck, but for me it always seemed fundamental to the deck's ramping ability and the instant speed shuffle effect is always nice. Brainstorm and Top are a lot of draw/search though, so finding the right lands must not have been much of a concern to him. All the Terminus probably gave him alternatives than needing to ramp quickly.

Here's his list, since I haven't seen it posted in here yet:

Creature (8)
3 Platinum Emperion
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sorcery (8)
4 Show and Tell
4 Terminus

Instant (11)
3 Repeal
3 Crop Rotation
4 Brainstorm
1 Swan Song

Artifact (8)
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle

Land (25)
3 Tropical Island
2 Vésuva
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Tundra
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Savannah
1 Karakas

Sideboard (15)
2 Swan Song
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Sacred Ground
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Meddling Mage
3 Flusterstorm
2 Venser, Shaper Savant

[into_play]

I'm running a similiar list, trying to splash into blue and not white. Main difference is the presence of exploration, I love this card. A few question:
1) Did you consider to put a Reclamation sage instead a Krosan grip? Same effect, but A LOT better with Omnitell.
2) Why not Repeal? Tricks with that card and sensei/tabernacle are great, and is a nice defensive card and drawing card.
3) Should Trickbind replace needles against wasteland? Is not more effective to cast a needle, than stay with open mana fearing a waste?
4) 3 Engineered....3? what do you fear so much to put them mainboard?
5) Wouldn't be better to put an oblivion stone instead a Ugin? 1 and 1. Against mud ugin is useless, and oblivion is much faster.

Not going to put words into Rock's mouth, but to answer a few of your questions based on my experience:

1) Reclamation Sage has the problem of any triggered ability coming from a permanent dropped into play from their Show and Tell: in response, the Omni-Tell player can Cunning Wish for a Trickbind and counter the ability. Same reason why Ashen Rider is not the greatest defense against Omni-Tell. Krosan Grip is impossible for them to stop, but you need a triggered ability off your permanent put into play to break up their priority.

3) Trickbind has a lot more uses than just countering Wasteland activations. As Rock mentioned, it can counter the Chalice of the Void trigger countering one of your one mana spells. It can counter the Storm trigger from a lethal Tendrils of Agony. And if you have enough mana already against Omni-Tell, you could drop a Primeval Titan off of their Show and Tell, Trickbind their Emrakul's extra turn trigger, and then cast your own Emrakul the following turn. This requires a lot to go right, but the split second making Trickbind uncounterable can really make this possible.

5) Although Ugin can take more turns to get on into play than the Oblivion Stone and subsequent board wipe, Ugin impacts the game more as it doubles as a win condition. Not to mention, relying on Oblivion Stones makes you even weaker to Null Rod.

[Morden]

thank you for your answer man. I understood all your points, and I partially agree, but:

1) You are right, but without trini or laboratory you have to stay open mana against omni to cast krosan, and hope that he has not omni+emrakul already in had. Hard conditions....with trini I can accept no sage (thought I don't like, I prefer to have both), but without

3) Indeed, great card, and I'm thinking to add it to my list. But no needles? really? wasteland, jace, liliana, karn, aether vial, rishadian port, thespian stage, deathrite shaman, sensei (against miracle it's not so crazy to name it...that's why I prefer to have 3 sensei and 1 mirri and 1 sylvan library in my deck), fetchlands (yes, name scalding tarn against omni can make game really hard for him) :D, only for 1 cmc card. Ok, trickbind is uncounterable and it's not destroyed by decay, but you need 2 mana and you can make it only once.

5) Yes, I think it depends a lot of your meta....in my situations, I have often the necessity to wipe out as soon as possible, that's why I prefer oblivion. Null road is used only in sideboard, we have krosan, it's not a big problem. The big problem is if we find a deck based on artifact (painter, mud, chalice also), oblivion can really make the difference, since mainboard we don't have so much against them.

[deadlock]

White gives the deck strong options. I miss Ethersworn Canonist in the board. Would be funny to run him in the main, but he turns on enemy creature removal and can bad in non-combo matchups.
I also would tweak the maindeck. Repeal seems lackluster compared to Wipe Away or even Oblivion Stone.
No Expedition Map and the heavy Show and Tell commitment have to be discussed as well.

Edit: I meant Oblivion Ring, a card which is enabled due to the white splash.

The Platinum Emperion plan would be much more appealing if it would affect the Omni Tell matchup, but we can't have it all ;)
When analyzing cards for the Omni Tell matchup it comes down to a couple of different cases, depending on what card they drop via S&T and the rest of their hand. The strongest approach is to stop the S&T, because every 'post S&T hate card' does fall short in one or more cases. We have stuff like Meddling Mage and Flusterstorm in that category. Post S&T we have either Oblivion Ring + Canonist or Wipe Away + Venser which cover all cases together (note that we can combine Oblivion Ring with Venser or whatever as well). Also note that Grip does the same as Wipe Away in this matchup.

[Postman]

A few thoughts off topic, sorry... Does anyone else play Thespian's Stage plus Dark Depths? I play both cards from time to time in the UG build and most of the time it's great!
A) It's an additional win con (esp. against BUG decks)
B) Stage almost fits in the traditional build
C) there are usually 5-6 cards to get us the missing part (Crop Rotation and Maps) in addition to normal filtering cards in form of Brainstorm and SDT
D) both parts can be fetched via Titan
E) a single part of the combo "protects" our other lands most of the time, since opponents usually safe their Wasteland
F) same is often true for protecting the Titan: opponents tend to safe a copy of StP for Marit Lage
G) If ML gets sworded, we get 20 life, which means 2-3 extra turns against fair decks

[Zotmaster]

A few thoughts off topic, sorry... Does anyone else play Thespian's Stage plus Dark Depths? I play both cards from time to time in the UG build and most of the time it's great!
A) It's an additional win con (esp. against BUG decks)
B) Stage almost fits in the traditional build
C) there are usually 5-6 cards to get us the missing part (Crop Rotation and Maps) in addition to normal filtering cards in form of Brainstorm and SDT
D) both parts can be fetched via Titan
E) a single part of the combo "protects" our other lands most of the time, since opponents usually safe their Wasteland
F) same is often true for protecting the Titan: opponents tend to safe a copy of StP for Marit Lage
G) If ML gets sworded, we get 20 life, which means 2-3 extra turns against fair decks

Personally, I strongly dislike the combo in U/G lists, strongly dislike the combo in Mono-G BoozeCube-style lists, and use the combo in Mono-G John Kassari-style lists. This combo works in Kassari's lists in part because he utilizes Into the North to fetch both basic snow lands as well as Dark Depths itself. This is a luxury you won't have in U/G lists or a BoozeCube list. For the other lists, for every win you snag out of nowhere, there are at least as many, if not more, games where the combo is clunky and awkward, ends up in my hand, or otherwise puts me in a situation where I wish the cards were pretty much anything else. Also, you'd probably almost never want to fetch out the pieces with Primeval Titan: Thespian's Stage will enter the battlefield tapped. This wouldn't matter if not for the fact that if you're tutoring for "I want to win now", you'd probably rather just get Cloudpost and Eye of Ugin, then Cloudpost and Karakas, and take all of the turns with Emrakul. This leaves your opponent with no avenue to do anything.

If Dark Depths ends up in your hand, you're usually in bad shape. If either piece ends up getting hit with Wasteland or is discarded, you're in bad shape. You need at least four lands - Depths, Stage, and two lands that produce mana, barring playing against another Cloudpost deck - to even attempt to activate your combo. If Marit Lage ends up eating a Swords to Plowshares or a sacrifice effect, you're down to two lands. In contrast, you can cast Primeval Titan on four lands, putting you in a far superior position. The reason this combo works well in Lands shells is because you can vomit out multiple lands per turn (Exploration and Manabond), reduce the land requirements for activating the combo as well as give the lands themselves something to do before you combo off (Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth), and easily get binned pieces back as often as necessary (Life from the Loam). Loam plays very poorly with Eldrazi, and if you start adding in other cards to enable the combo, now you're just playing CrappyLandsShell.dec.

[TimHarding]

Personally, I strongly dislike the combo in U/G lists, strongly dislike the combo in Mono-G BoozeCube-style lists, and use the combo in Mono-G John Kassari-style lists. This combo works in Kassari's lists in part because he utilizes Into the North to fetch both basic snow lands as well as Dark Depths itself. This is a luxury you won't have in U/G lists or a BoozeCube list. For the other lists, for every win you snag out of nowhere, there are at least as many, if not more, games where the combo is clunky and awkward, ends up in my hand, or otherwise puts me in a situation where I wish the cards were pretty much anything else. Also, you'd probably almost never want to fetch out the pieces with Primeval Titan: Thespian's Stage will enter the battlefield tapped. This wouldn't matter if not for the fact that if you're tutoring for "I want to win now", you'd probably rather just get Cloudpost and Eye of Ugin, then Cloudpost and Karakas, and take all of the turns with Emrakul. This leaves your opponent with no avenue to do anything.

If Dark Depths ends up in your hand, you're usually in bad shape. If either piece ends up getting hit with Wasteland or is discarded, you're in bad shape. You need at least four lands - Depths, Stage, and two lands that produce mana, barring playing against another Cloudpost deck - to even attempt to activate your combo. If Marit Lage ends up eating a Swords to Plowshares or a sacrifice effect, you're down to two lands. In contrast, you can cast Primeval Titan on four lands, putting you in a far superior position. The reason this combo works well in Lands shells is because you can vomit out multiple lands per turn (Exploration and Manabond), reduce the land requirements for activating the combo as well as give the lands themselves something to do before you combo off (Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth), and easily get binned pieces back as often as necessary (Life from the Loam). Loam plays very poorly with Eldrazi, and if you start adding in other cards to enable the combo, now you're just playing CrappyLandsShell.dec.


Truth. That should be the post # we link to every time this question gets asked in the future.

[Postman]

Personally, I strongly dislike the combo in U/G lists, strongly dislike the combo in Mono-G BoozeCube-style lists, and use the combo in Mono-G John Kassari-style lists. This combo works in Kassari's lists in part because he utilizes Into the North to fetch both basic snow lands as well as Dark Depths itself. This is a luxury you won't have in U/G lists or a BoozeCube list. For the other lists, for every win you snag out of nowhere, there are at least as many, if not more, games where the combo is clunky and awkward, ends up in my hand, or otherwise puts me in a situation where I wish the cards were pretty much anything else. Also, you'd probably almost never want to fetch out the pieces with Primeval Titan: Thespian's Stage will enter the battlefield tapped. This wouldn't matter if not for the fact that if you're tutoring for "I want to win now", you'd probably rather just get Cloudpost and Eye of Ugin, then Cloudpost and Karakas, and take all of the turns with Emrakul. This leaves your opponent with no avenue to do anything.

If Dark Depths ends up in your hand, you're usually in bad shape. If either piece ends up getting hit with Wasteland or is discarded, you're in bad shape. You need at least four lands - Depths, Stage, and two lands that produce mana, barring playing against another Cloudpost deck - to even attempt to activate your combo. If Marit Lage ends up eating a Swords to Plowshares or a sacrifice effect, you're down to two lands. In contrast, you can cast Primeval Titan on four lands, putting you in a far superior position. The reason this combo works well in Lands shells is because you can vomit out multiple lands per turn (Exploration and Manabond), reduce the land requirements for activating the combo as well as give the lands themselves something to do before you combo off (Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth), and easily get binned pieces back as often as necessary (Life from the Loam). Loam plays very poorly with Eldrazi, and if you start adding in other cards to enable the combo, now you're just playing CrappyLandsShell.dec.
Thanks a lot for those great thoughts! :-) This will help me a lot while building the deck I need for my meta.

[Morden]

Me too I wanna thank you zotmaster, I will read every day your post in the future to avoid the temptation to use depths :laugh:

[Morden]

ok guys, I need some opinions from the ones who play the blue versione. For the moment, I left the GW build, I made tons of game with the blue one and I loved it.
so, the deck


4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Pithing Needle
4 Primeval Titan
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Mirri's Guile
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Expedition Map
1 Sylvan Library
3 Exploration
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Brainstorm
4 Tropical Island
2 Forest
1 Island
2 Show and Tell
3 Repeal
1 Trinket Mage
1 Oblivion Stone
3 Crop Rotation
2 Vesuva

sideboard

2 Krosan Grip
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Trinisphere
1 Pithing Needle
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Elephant Grass
2 Spell Pierce
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sphere of Resistance


As you can see, the build is pretty standard. The most "strange" things are:
1) Exploration: "best defense is attack". I don't think this deck can have the luxury to control the game....no counter, no removal, no discard cards, we have only defense against other: crop, needle, repeal. Exploration really makes a lot of pressure to the opponent with the right card. Show and tell is plan B, and not so good in a meta full of omnitell....
2)tabernacle: mainboard. If exploration speeds us, tabernacle slow down a lot of deck. Useless? Crop it.

Sideboard is a work in progress.....
1) why pierce? first because at the moment I don't have fluster XD. In general I don't think they are so bad (please don't compare pierce/fluster with magus/candelabra.... -_- :P ). Having the possibility to counter planeswalker, artifact and enchantment is a very little plus.
2) surgical is also sooo great against wasteland. No needle? ok, waste my cloudpost, but it will be the last waste you'll use! also great obviously against combo, graveyard and so on

sorry emergency now, I will write more tomorrow!

[Kirika]

@MaCHOOga
The top 16 cloudpost deck from eternal weekend seems pretty good.

Prioritizing Show and Tell seems pretty good except when you play Omni. I ran 3 myself.

Show and Tell into Platinum Emperion is usually good game unless they are running white for Swords to Plowshares or Black for Liliana most decks do not run artifact removal or board sweepers main deck. Well there is miracles but that is a good match up. This also seems pretty good against burn until they board in their Smash to Smitherings.

White Splash for Terminus and Meddling Mage seems great if there are few Blood Moons being played since you have no basics to fetch.

I remember playing Sacred Ground in Keeper against Suicide black with their sinkholes and wastelands. It was good back then. Needle seems more general purpose since Liliana of the Veil is really bad news and it can stop Jace. Are people actually playing other land destruction besides Wasteland? maybe Ghost Quarter from lands and Cataclysm out of Death and Taxes? Pox is very fringe.

Dunno about no Map though. It helps find you lands you need and as an additional shuffle effect with Top lets you see more cards.

Will have to try the white splash and report back.

@Rock Lee
Your list seems interesting. I like Explosives a lot. How is it having no Pithing Needle? Trickbind has wasteland covered but planeswalkers ilke Liliana and Jace can be problems. Relic seems good with all the Dig Through Times being played.

@Intoplay
Trinisphere seems better then Arcane Lab since it is good versus other decks other then Storm and Omni. It is also castable on turn 2 via Cloudpost into Glimmer Post which matters because storm or omni can just kill you.

Your probably right about 4 show and tell being really good with more fatties to bring in like Emperion. It can back fire if your playing OmniTell though.

@Postman
Don't think Dark Depth's + Stage is worth running in a Green Blue build. Dark Depths do not make mana and are a dead draw unless you have Stage and you already have you mana stretched thin between posts and green/blue lands. Your are not playing Wasteland/Rishadan Port or Chalice on 1 like Lands or Aggro Loam, white players can just Swords your Marit Lage Tokens. Hardcasting Emrakul is a better plan.

@Morden
Dunno about Mirri's Guile. How has it been for you? Top lets you draw a card if you really need it. Sylvan is awesome cause you can draw extra cards at cost of life. Unless there are lots of Pithing Needle or Null Rods, Top just seems better than Mirri's Guile. Neither are a combo with Ugin.

Exploration does not seem worth it. You quickly run out of lands to play without a draw engine like life from the loam engine to get you more lands to play.

Would run Ugin over Oblivion Stone. Null Rod gets Oblivion Stone and it blows up all your stuff including Needle and Candelabra. Ugin you get to keep your stuff.

[Zotmaster]

ok guys, I need some opinions from the ones who play the blue versione. For the moment, I left the GW build, I made tons of game with the blue one and I loved it.
so, the deck

Your concept is more or less fine, but you might want to tweak it slightly in one direction or another.

I have a very love/hate relationship with Exploration. It's fantastic in the first turn or two, and royally sucks pretty much anytime after that. One thing you might want to at least consider trying is running Crucible of Worlds alongside it. This lets you go ham with fetchlands and creates a lock with Glacial Chasm, which means your Exploration actually does something even late game. Titania, Protector of Argoth also plays nicely with that lot and can be another wincon. I would probably either go all-in on this, or completely cut it. If you cut it, you now have room for Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, who does all sorts of good things and is also a wincon by himself.

I don't like only two copies of Top here. Especially considering that you have a spot for Mirri's Guile, you might as well make that a third Top. True, Mirri's Guile can't be hit with Stifle or Pithing Needle, but it does essentially the same thing...except it does not let you float a surprise counter or Crop Rotation until most needed. I feel like in your current list, I'd probably be getting Top with Trinket Mage pretty much all the time. You can make more or less the same argument with Sylvan Library. If you had more (or deeper) dig - something like Ancient Stirrings - it might work, but as it is...I feel you're lacking there.

Speaking of Trinket Mage, I feel like he's under-utilized here. Not only would I feel compelled to grab Top extremely frequently, but you also have a couple cards that are prime targets for him that are nowhere in your 75. Chalice of the Void is a consideration, of course, but more to the point, I can't imagine any 12-Post list running Trinket Mage that doesn't have an Engineered Explosives it can get. From Monastery Mentor tokens, to planeswalkers, Qasali Pridemage, and everything in between, Explosives handles it. That list can produce four colors natively, and with a little help from an opponent, you can get red as well.

Spell Pierce is a so-so substitute until you can get Flusterstorm. You can also try Mindbreak Trap.

Lastly, unless you have a specific vision in mind, I'd probably consolidate your Spheres and run three of one or three of the other instead of a 2/1 mix.

[Morden]

Thank you for your opinions guys!! Replying by step:

1)Mirri: yes, true, sensei is better. In a meta without miracle I'd choose sensei with no doubts. But against it naming sensei with needle gives you a lot of tranquilllity. Mostly against mentor miracle, to avoid tons of monks in the battlefield. I know, no extra card and no trick with repeal.....basically the situation is this one:
PRO: open mana on upkeep/eot to look at your library, good vs needle/revoker, still scry, keep looking at your library against mentor
CONS: no extra card, no look at your library whenever you want, no tutor with trinket mage, green mana to cast, dies under decay/oblivion stone
I will buy another sensei and try it instead of mirri. My sideboard is weak against miracle if we don't consider needle, do you have any suggestion for this?

2) Sylvan library: if about mirri I can share your idea, I consider sylvan a strong must. Against a turn 1 chalice, this is a safety net. And, mostly, it gives us the possibility to draw extra card: if we are high with hit points (thanks to glimmerpost), this makes a big difference.

3) Exploration: in the past I didn't like it. It's true, after 3rd turn is useless, in GW build is a dead card after this turn. But whoa, if you have it on the first turns, it really makes a difference, against EVERY deck. Maybe the only matchup where exploration is critical is BUG/jund....exploration empties easly our hand, and so thoughtseize/tourach hit strong the remaining cards in hand. If we draw exploration on lage game, we can remove it from our hand with brain/fetch/maps. Crucible is a very interesting option, saving us also against wasteland, but it's hard to find a slot for it (and 1x is basically useless, since we cannot tutor it).
edit: the fact that after 3rd turn it is useless is not so true. Let's suppose that we start the game with a vesuva in hand and no cloudpost. We don't need to cast vesuva (unless other specific reason) early: but when we reach cloudpost, putting it into the battlefield together with vesuva is a nice surprise effect, that give also us a fast ramp. This happens also with "utility" lands: bojuka bog and chasm (sometimes tabernacle, if we are scared by wasteland, but in general I prefer a wasted tabernacle that cloudpost, it depends however.....) in general are useless in first turns: casting them after along with our base lands allows us to continue ramping and answering opponent's menace.

4) Explosives: I dislike this card. Against tokens, Tabernacle is much better. I tried explosives....if you remove 3/4 tokens against grixis or mentor, they easily put them in the battlefield again. With those decks you must hit pyromancers or mentors, not token. At least, with Tabernacle we slow them. Having more than 2 counters on explosives is VERY hard, we cannot rely on this to remove cmc 3 cards. Planeswalker? needle is the solution, no way. Wiping out battlefield? oblivion stone: grixis has delvers (0 cmc), shaman (1cmc), pyromancers (2cmc); bug has shaman (1cmc), tarmo (2cmc), liliana (3cmc); omnitell has....nothing XD; miracle has sensei (useless), mentor (3cmc), tokens(0cmc). Explosives are very very strong only against aggro loam, to remove chalices and mox. I can think to add 1 of them maybe, thanks to trinket mage, but no more.

5) Counters/spheres: mindbreak trap is good only against storm. But since that deck usually uses duress before comboing, I prefer to have something in the battlefield to slow/stop it. That's why I put 1 sphere of resistance....gaining 1 turn (2 cmc vs 3 for trini) can really makes the difference with storm. And in general with fast deck I think. Of course I cannot put 3 spheres of resistance 'cause I need trini with omnitell....

[drude1]

@Morden: a giant advantage of top over Mirri or library is that you can float a card on top of your library until you need it, LIKE MINDBREAK TRAP! Trap is your best card against storm for this reason. You can also play a copy of Flooded Grove if you want so trap is more multidimensional. Point is, trap is particularly good in combo with top.


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[Neko448]

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [OD] Island (4)
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ALA] Forest (1)
1 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [US] Show and Tell
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [MMA] Relic of Progenitus
3 [MMA] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 2 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [WWK] Nature's Claim


So, long time thread reader, even longer post player, first time poster. I had a great experience last night and want to gush about it. I've been playing a stock U/G turbo eldrazi list for a while that hasn't changed much over the last nine months except for some stupid/innovative sideboard choices that don't usually do enough for me. I love 12post more than any other magic deck, so I just kept jamming away but I really needed a breath of fresh air. Since I play in the same area as BoozeCube and we talk about our decks a lot, I was tempted to try Mono G or G/W but after some hours on Cockatrice, I just didn't like the deck's style and even worse combo matchups. But then I see this list. I wasn't totally sold at first, having watching Rock fall in love with trickbind was adorable at first but kinda weird, but I decided to just bite the bullet and try it, albeit -1 SDT +1 Vesuva. It was great!! Trickbind is such an awesome and useful card. I crushed an event yesterday even though I got two bad matchups out of three rounds and punted hard against Miracles.

Round 1: Oops all spells.
I love pithing needle a lot, and cutting it for me was very hard, but I felt the burn in this matchup (kind of). I mull to 6 this game and keep Relic, Relic, Trop, Trop, Cloudpost, Cloudpost. Not like, great, but fine. My opponent, who is on the play, immediately passes without playing a land, so I put him on dredge, blecher or oops. I Trop>Relic and pass. He goes off on his turn and reveals he is on the Angel Build. No biggy, but I wish I would have had a needle there, but even so I could have named the wrong thing. Not a good start with a new deck. I grab the Extractions and stuff and bring them in, but I watch my opponent SB 15 cards, so I take out the extractions and bring in K Grips, and Nature's Claims, expecting the transformation SB. I get rewarded when he therapies me on T3 for Force and Rituals into Belcher. He casts LED and in resp I Krosan Grip the Belcher. He gets another belcher, but I have chasm at this point, so he just activates it to set up his library and tells me he puts all the LEDS/Rituals on top (Even though I'm pretty sure he did not have to). Two turns later, I drop Chasm, Trickbind his Belcher and slam Emrakul. Game 3 he SBs 15 cards again and doesn't kill me turn 1. I Trop go, and he therapies me, for Flusterstorm, I reveal a Crop Rotation, he then goes for the combo kill and has to read Bojuka Bog.

Round 2: Esper Mentor
Not only is this a bad matchup for me, but this player is much better than me and we both know it. G1 is an absolute slog, but I lock up behind a glacial chasm. He starts Jacing me, puts a ton of tokens in play, and steals my Candle with a Dack, but I just take my time to get out of triple Bolt range via trickbinding my Chasm on lethal turns and drop it the turn I have Emrakul. He has Bolt, Bolt, Punishing Fire but I have Karakas. G2 is just me stomping him. He meddling mage's Wurmcoil (A card I've played in previous matches against him) Get the candle out turn 2 with Trinket Mage and just go Titan(fow), Titan(fow), Titan(sticks), Ugin, Emrakul. This Matchup is normally trash for me, but I felt way more confident in my deck's ability to pull out of it.

Round 3 is Miracles, crush him game 1, but punt game 2 by first letting him jace my ugin to the bottom when I have an active top then drawing before paying for chasm. Luckily there was a game 3, where he never stood a chance.

I thought being Vesuva light would be bad, but having many more colored sources was super helpful. I didn't play against any Wasteland decks, but I bet I could have stood a much better chance. I really like this build, and will probably keep working with it.
But Rock, what are the Wipe Aways good for? ANT? Omnitell? Nailing Chalice is great but this card isn't great against Blood Moon/Choke/BtB. Kgrip and Trickbind have been great, and losing FoW doesn't seem so bad with the inclusion of Surgical. I was thinking -1 Wipe +1 Flusterstorm, just because the card is such a trump.

[Morden]

@Morden: a giant advantage of top over Mirri or library is that you can float a card on top of your library until you need it, LIKE MINDBREAK TRAP! Trap is your best card against storm for this reason. You can also play a copy of Flooded Grove if you want so trap is more multidimensional. Point is, trap is particularly good in combo with top.


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indeed, this is true. I'm still working on my sideboard, I added sphere of resistance because I think it can be usefull also with other decks than storm (tokens-based decks for example), while mindbreak trap is used only against it.

[MechTactical]

i can't decide which build to copy... i like the latest rock list, but i recently acquired FoW and want to run them... i like the white splash, basically i like every build more or less :) and i have the cards to build it (only one candelabra though...). At this point i just can't decide or don't have the knowlage to attempt my own tweak as i'm a noob. Can anyone paste a good / proven UG build with FoWs or just point me to whatever page it’s posted on? I'm looking for something "straight forward", something to start with...

[Morden]

i can't decide which build to copy... i like the latest rock list, but i recently acquired FoW and want to run them... i like the white splash, basically i like every build more or less :) and i have the cards to build it (only one candelabra though...). At this point i just can't decide or don't have the knowlage to attempt my own tweak as i'm a noob. Can anyone paste a good / proven UG build with FoWs or just point me to whatever page it’s posted on? I'm looking for something "straight forward", something to start with...

I love Fow, but in this deck I don't thinke there is space for them.....mainboard....what would you remove for them? Adding FOW means also add more blue cards, in order to have something to pitch. Sideboard, I prefer cards that have a particular function, since I know my opponent's deck and I can choose more focused cards (for example, against discarding deck FOW is awful, since it helps your opponent to reduce your hand, bettere 1 mana counter like flusterstorm; against combo that uses graveyard, better relic or surgical extraction, and so on.....). I know that Fow are in general good vs everything, but look at this deck:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16078&iddeck=120011
Basically the idea is, in some matchups, to switch to a more controlling deck. This could be ok, fow, mindbreak, swan in main and you have some good answers. But as you can see, this deck is completely NAKED against omnitell, and we cannot allow this. So you have to put something like trinisphere/krosan, reducing slots for blue cards and consequently fow's strenght.

[TimHarding]

I love Fow, but in this deck I don't thinke there is space for them.....mainboard....what would you remove for them? Adding FOW means also add more blue cards, in order to have something to pitch. Sideboard, I prefer cards that have a particular function, since I know my opponent's deck and I can choose more focused cards (for example, against discarding deck FOW is awful, since it helps your opponent to reduce your hand, bettere 1 mana counter like flusterstorm; against combo that uses graveyard, better relic or surgical extraction, and so on.....). I know that Fow are in general good vs everything, but look at this deck:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16078&iddeck=120011
Basically the idea is, in some matchups, to switch to a more controlling deck. This could be ok, fow, mindbreak, swan in main and you have some good answers. But as you can see, this deck is completely NAKED against omnitell, and we cannot allow this. So you have to put something like trinisphere/krosan, reducing slots for blue cards and consequently fow's strenght.

You definitely need to bend over backward to include FOW, but I think it is important to have. Below is my list. FOW is card disadvantage, but trinkets and improved card selection can recover that loss. A lot of our 'bad' MUs like MUD, Big Red, Elves really hate FOW. Also, remember that SnT is bad in only one (common) matchup: Omni. So being able to use FOW offensively on SnT plan, like Sneak used to, increases the potency immensely. My list has been very good against Omni, K-Grip is very key. Might even need a wasteland to hedge against bosejiu, but probably not worth the slot.


4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Vesuva
2 Island
1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Bajouka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm

2 Trinket Mage
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation
2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will

4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Expedition Map
1 Candelabra of Townos
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

2 Ponder
3 Show and Tell

SB
1 Glen-Elendra Archmage
4 Flusterstorm
4 Krosan Grip
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Trinisphere
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

For a heavy wasteland and Omni meta. If I wasn't in a wasteland heavy meta, it'd be +1 Candle +1 Vesuva, -1 Island -1 Needle.

[Zotmaster]

Um...yeah. So this...this is a card.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNnvJ4CWsAAcEir.png:large

Originally off the Wizards Twitter (https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/637803775286226948).

Even without the shuffle clause, that cast trigger is exciting.

[Barook]

It's one mana cheaper than the original and double exile is great.

But I wonder how the library eating compares to Annihilator 4.

[Neko448]

I'm not too worried about it lacking annihilator. Usually if you're slamming eldrazi, you're pretty close to just emrakuling. The double exile pushes this into reasonable and one less mana is very nice in my opinion.

[Zotmaster]

It's one mana cheaper than the original and double exile is great.

But I wonder how the library eating compares to Annihilator 4.

Almost strictly worse. There aren't very many Legacy decks that can meaningfully recover from Annihilator anything, and two attacks are almost always enough. Even if your opponent doesn't just drop dead at that point, they likely have no permanents, and then they will drop dead on the next attack or otherwise won't ever be able to keep permanents on the board. Ulamog's newest trick is still a large chunk of any library, but depending on the player's hand, they may still have the ability to search for answers.

The double exile is what will make or break the card as it's not only an exile effect, but it's one from a colorless source, meaning that in a pinch it would even take care of an Emrakul.

[mykatdied]

At the very least he doesn't fuel an opponent's yard to allow them to cast dig through time and find an answer easily. Flat out exiling is fine. Especially considering all the fetchlands and cantrips that will quickly thin out an opponent's library.

[TheBoozeCube]

Double exiling for only 10 is HUGE. I've lost many games vs Storm where I had a T3 Ulamog and blew up a land, but they were still able to recover and combo off the next turn. Taking out two lands, however, makes the odds much better.

The milling part doesn't really excite me like annihilator does. But with all the cantripping and drawing people do, it might still be a two-attack win.


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[Morden]

whoooah!! ok, we all agree that it's an interesting card.....but will you add to your maindeck? Of course kozilek and emrakul cannot be removed. It's hard to find a slot for it.....

[emberwilde]

276

I'm actually more interested in getting a playmat with this Eldrazi Humanoid Form statues
(Left) Ulamog as an executioner
(Center) Emrakul as an Angel
(Right) Kozilek as butcher

[Togores]

This week i have played post again. And I have played ulamog and emrakul. This is just a great upgrade. Usualy you want the destructive part. He usualy dies after. But you win a lot of time blowing up 2 things. Anihilator is just a plus.

[mykatdied]

I still run an ulamog and I would probably replace it with this.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Wouldn't repacing the original Ulamog with the new one ruin your infinite turns trick?

[Zotmaster]

Wouldn't repacing the original Ulamog with the new one ruin your infinite turns trick?

Not unless you're cheating, since Ulamog doesn't normally grant extra turns ;)

[Barook]

276

I'm actually more interested in getting a playmat with this Eldrazi Humanoid Form statues
(Left) Ulamog as an executioner
(Center) Emrakul as an Angel
(Right) Kozilek as butcher
Angel Emrakul was actually Iona, Shield of Emeria.

Makes me wonder about the other two titans.

[civet five]

Angel Emrakul was actually Iona, Shield of Emeria.

Makes me wonder about the other two titans.

If I remember the lore correctly, the merfolks had gods Emeria, Cosi and Ula based on the faded memories of the Eldrazi. Its possible that its Iona, but could also be someone we havent met yet

[Darkenslight]

If I remember the lore correctly, the merfolks had gods Emeria, Cosi and Ula based on the faded memories of the Eldrazi. Its possible that its Iona, but could also be someone we havent met yet

Iona = Emrakul
Lorthos = Ulamog
Kalitas = Kozilek

That's how they seem to map onto the Titanic Statues.

Edit: alternatively, it could be the humanoid forms of Nahiri, Ugin and Sorin.

[fullmetal779]

So ive been playing solidarity for some time now but i started to stray toward 12 post and now im looking at lists and i have to ask Why the blue and what list in mono green is the most competitive

[Hopo]

So ive been playing solidarity for some time now but i started to stray toward 12 post and now im looking at lists and i have to ask Why the blue and what list in mono green is the most competitive

If you are new, it's only fair to request you to read the primer first and then ask questions if something comes up. You'll learn a lot.

[chris80rowland]

Oh man... yes exactly this! why not emperion? the ugin plan screws our SnT plan – badly (I feel bad every time I see those 2 together…) ! why run ugin when we can just power SnT with emperion?? SnT titan is (if resolved) one of our strongest plays right? I think I’m leaning towards something similar at this point….

Hey sorry I'm a little late ive been busy. This was my deck from eternal weekend, the deck worked wonders, and if you guys have any questions about the list or w/e just let me know...

[MechTactical]

You definitely need to bend over backward to include FOW, but I think it is important to have. Below is my list. FOW is card disadvantage, but trinkets and improved card selection can recover that loss. A lot of our 'bad' MUs like MUD, Big Red, Elves really hate FOW. Also, remember that SnT is bad in only one (common) matchup: Omni. So being able to use FOW offensively on SnT plan, like Sneak used to, increases the potency immensely. My list has been very good against Omni, K-Grip is very key. Might even need a wasteland to hedge against bosejiu, but probably not worth the slot.


4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Vesuva
2 Island
1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Bajouka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm

2 Trinket Mage
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation
2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will

4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Expedition Map
1 Candelabra of Townos
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

2 Ponder
3 Show and Tell

SB
1 Glen-Elendra Archmage
4 Flusterstorm
4 Krosan Grip
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Trinisphere
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

For a heavy wasteland and Omni meta. If I wasn't in a wasteland heavy meta, it'd be +1 Candle +1 Vesuva, -1 Island -1 Needle.

Tim/Modern thanks dudes for the intel.
I like the double trinket plan (i like any plan with 1 candelabra:). anyways why not run a copy or 2 of DDT to recover from FOW card disadvantage? they fill our graveyard nicely right? furthermore why are you not running repeal? you could always do the dirty ol' repeal + SDT trick to get some cards right, why ponder?

[Morden]

Hey sorry I'm a little late ive been busy. This was my deck from eternal weekend, the deck worked wonders, and if you guys have any questions about the list or w/e just let me know...

It would be awesome if you shared a little report with us! How was your final result? What decks did you defeat, and what decks defeated you?

[TimHarding]

Tim/Modern thanks dudes for the intel.
I like the double trinket plan (i like any plan with 1 candelabra:). anyways why not run a copy or 2 of DDT to recover from FOW card disadvantage? they fill our graveyard nicely right? furthermore why are you not running repeal? you could always do the dirty ol' repeal + SDT trick to get some cards right, why ponder?

Repeal's stock has fallen with the decline of Tarmogoyf, swiftspear, and SFM. It remains the best answer to delver, but now that the most common delver deck has wider (pyromancer and its tokens), and bigger CMC (angler, tasigur) threats, it isn't something to lean on. Further, it's lackluster in the true tough MUs elves, omni, MUD. If the meta returns to RUG and Stoneblade, they'll come back. But trinket blocker and into EE is some great defense. As is Tabernacle. I do miss the top shenanigans, but my list is a little more front loaded.

I choose Ponder because of the shuffle effect. Many losses in post can be blamed on anemic card selection, and the shuffle is huge. Also, with the my blue requirement, they serve as blue map replacements: shuffle effects which help hit early land drops. The late game search functionality is covered by trinkets for the single map. I do like DTT, but the double blue was restrictive, and it only ever got pitched to FOW. The single one I used to play became a trinket Mage.


Also, I will probably run the new Ulamog. 10 CMC is a huge improvement from 11, as far as post drop sequence is concerned. The trigger is absolutely fantastic(and it's basically annihilator2 haste). I am less worried about annihilator, because the annihilator 4 eldrazi's never ended the game upon resolution anyway. They too took 2-3 turns to close the game,If they ever closed the game, which for me was rare. It'll work similarly to Kozilek: cheap eldrazi when I can't afford emrakul, get amazing trigger, force opponent to answer, proceed to emrakul. I wonder how crazy the others will get, but I can't imagine Emrakul, the Aeons Torn being replaced in our current game plan.

[Darkenslight]

Repeal's stock has fallen with the decline of Tarmogoyf, swiftspear, and SFM. It remains the best answer to delver, but now that the most common delver deck has wider (pyromancer and its tokens), and bigger CMC (angler, tasigur) threats, it isn't something to lean on. Further, it's lackluster in the true tough MUs elves, omni, MUD. If the meta returns to RUG and Stoneblade, they'll come back. But trinket blocker and into EE is some great defense. As is Tabernacle. I do miss the top shenanigans, but my list is a little more front loaded.

I choose Ponder because of the shuffle effect. Many losses in post can be blamed on anemic card selection, and the shuffle is huge. Also, with the my blue requirement, they serve as blue map replacements: shuffle effects which help hit early land drops. The late game search functionality is covered by trinkets for the single map. I do like DTT, but the double blue was restrictive, and it only ever got pitched to FOW. The single one I used to play became a trinket Mage.


Also, I will probably run the new Ulamog. 10 CMC is a huge improvement from 11, as far as post drop sequence is concerned. The trigger is absolutely fantastic(and it's basically annihilator2 haste). I am less worried about annihilator, because the annihilator 4 eldrazi's never ended the game upon resolution anyway. They too took 2-3 turns to close the game,If they ever closed the game, which for me was rare. It'll work similarly to Kozilek: cheap eldrazi when I can't afford emrakul, get amazing trigger, force opponent to answer, proceed to emrakul. I wonder how crazy the others will get, but I can't imagine Emrakul, the Aeons Torn being replaced in our current game plan.

Only Ulamog on Zendikar right now - Emmy and Kozi left for New Phyrexia (because ofc they would).

But yeah, this Ula is arguably better, in terms of finishing the game, than his original version.

[Neko448]

Hey sorry I'm a little late ive been busy. This was my deck from eternal weekend, the deck worked wonders, and if you guys have any questions about the list or w/e just let me know...

Grats on the finish! I've got a couple of questions.
1. What brought you to play 3 MB Emperions? That seems so totally crazy to me, but they must have done work to get you that far.
2. How was the MB Swan Song? Did it feel better than a Flusterstorm?
3. You have Bojuka Bog in the sideboard. Did you play against reanimator at all? Did you miss it? Bog is such a trump game 1 in some bad matchups, I can't imagine taking it out of the main.
4. How often did slamming Show and Tell not work? Is it just bad against Omni? Card is pretty sick
5. How long have you been playing this white splash? Care to comment on some of your white sideboard choices? I'm most interested about the Sacred Ground.
6. Repeal is looking worse and worse in this format. What are your opinions on its continued inclusion.
7. Bouncing Venser with Karakas is sick, but 2UU is hard in U/G and I imagine very difficult with the white splash. How did you do casting this sweet wizard?

That's all I can think of. Again, congratulations!

[MechTactical]

Repeal's stock has fallen with the decline of Tarmogoyf, swiftspear, and SFM. It remains the best answer to delver, but now that the most common delver deck has wider (pyromancer and its tokens), and bigger CMC (angler, tasigur) threats, it isn't something to lean on. Further, it's lackluster in the true tough MUs elves, omni, MUD. If the meta returns to RUG and Stoneblade, they'll come back. But trinket blocker and into EE is some great defense. As is Tabernacle. I do miss the top shenanigans, but my list is a little more front loaded.

I choose Ponder because of the shuffle effect. Many losses in post can be blamed on anemic card selection, and the shuffle is huge. Also, with the my blue requirement, they serve as blue map replacements: shuffle effects which help hit early land drops. The late game search functionality is covered by trinkets for the single map. I do like DTT, but the double blue was restrictive, and it only ever got pitched to FOW. The single one I used to play became a trinket Mage.


Also, I will probably run the new Ulamog. 10 CMC is a huge improvement from 11, as far as post drop sequence is concerned. The trigger is absolutely fantastic(and it's basically annihilator2 haste). I am less worried about annihilator, because the annihilator 4 eldrazi's never ended the game upon resolution anyway. They too took 2-3 turns to close the game,If they ever closed the game, which for me was rare. It'll work similarly to Kozilek: cheap eldrazi when I can't afford emrakul, get amazing trigger, force opponent to answer, proceed to emrakul. I wonder how crazy the others will get, but I can't imagine Emrakul, the Aeons Torn being replaced in our current game plan.

Tim thanks man.

Let’s ask some more questions…

I’m lacking flusterstorms/tabernacle what can I use to replace them?
What exactly is the purpose of the single glen in the side?
Why no relic?
Do you see yourself running emperion?
How is your burn match up? Any tips?
What are the chances of dropping the last map, do you often need it?

I’m digging your list and have acquired EE and Spell price which I was missing, but am not willing to get fluster / tabernacle as my girlfriend will surely kill me in my sleep…. Any suggestion how to keep my head and find a suitable replacement cards for these slots?

I agree with you about the new ulamog. At first glance he didn’t seem to be all that good, but you are right the cost/cast trigger are much much better. I’m feeling sorry for the ulamog in my binder :smile:

[emberwilde]

She stepped back to see it better. Engraved behind and around the relief was another figure.

"Kozilek?" she said. "What—"

But it wasn't the Eldrazi titan—at least not exactly. In its overall outline, the figure could have been Kozilek, but the features were those of a male kor wearing a strange geometric crown that mimicked the bizarre obsidian plates that hovered over the titan's alien form. The kor's arms were spread wide, above the stone Nahiri's, and each hand gripped the hilt of a sword whose broad blade extended back along his forearm to the elbow, suggesting the Eldrazi's bifurcated limbs.

Above the male figure's head, an arcing banner proclaimed the subject of the artwork: "Nahiri the Prophet, Voice of Talib."

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/uncharted-realms/stirring-slumber-2015-05-13


Iona = Emrakul
Lorthos = Ulamog
Kalitas = Kozilek

That's how they seem to map onto the Titanic Statues.

Edit: alternatively, it could be the humanoid forms of Nahiri, Ugin and Sorin.

[TimHarding]

Tim thanks man.

Let’s ask some more questions…

I’m lacking flusterstorms/tabernacle what can I use to replace them?
What exactly is the purpose of the single glen in the side?
Why no relic?
Do you see yourself running emperion?
How is your burn match up? Any tips?
What are the chances of dropping the last map, do you often need it?

I’m digging your list and have acquired EE and Spell price which I was missing, but am not willing to get fluster / tabernacle as my girlfriend will surely kill me in my sleep…. Any suggestion how to keep my head and find a suitable replacement cards for these slots?

I agree with you about the new ulamog. At first glance he didn’t seem to be all that good, but you are right the cost/cast trigger are much much better. I’m feeling sorry for the ulamog in my binder :smile:

The tabernacle is less important than the flusterstorms. It can be another EE, Oblivion Stone, or Elephant Grass. Flusterstorms are very good, but swan song is a decent replacement - especially if blood moon is around in your meta. I generally make my side plans consist of early counters (flusterstorm, Pierce, FOW) to buy time for landing a hateful permanent (Glen, Trinisphere, Or Trinket into EE, Chalice, Needle, Cage - which are effectively 3ofs.) Glen Elendra is absolutely brutal against Combo, and decent off of show and tell, plus she's a clock. I prefer her over Venser, mostly because i can't seem to get double blue with the lines I like to take. Highly recommended. Venser is also fine. The key is to not rely only on a few counters.

I don't see myself running emperion, I think counterspells and a Titan-centric approach cover his effect well. Though it is strong.

I actually feel that 1 map is criminally low. Barely justified by 2 trinkets making it searchable, and ponders. It was the area most harmed by FOW blue count. The colorless mana fixing is very good. But most of all its game ending search for cavern or eye is too good to pass up. I want to get 2 in with 2 trinkets.

Relic is definitely good in the Meta, but I like to 'push' Titan, and very often I get bog to do the job of fighting delve.

The burn MU is well covered in this thread, and generally a very positive matchup for UG, but there are some easy mistakes most people make. What I do is only care about PoP, and go about my business. Ideally assembling SnT Titan. The thing is, if they can reach back over you, you must get chasm. Chasm is key. If you can't get Titan early, limp along on GP life and HOLD crop for chasm. This plan becomes much easier with the high counterspells count I have, and flusterstorm is a great weapon here, where Swan song is not. The key is to never leave yourself exposed to Price, ever. Then you can break the game open with uncontrollable life gain, or Eldrazi. I also bring in Kgrip for Eidolon and Vortex, which aren't game over, but must be respected. If you plan on seeing it, bring BEBs!

[MechTactical]

The tabernacle is less important than the flusterstorms. It can be another EE, Oblivion Stone, or Elephant Grass. Flusterstorms are very good, but swan song is a decent replacement - especially if blood moon is around in your meta. I generally make my side plans consist of early counters (flusterstorm, Pierce, FOW) to buy time for landing a hateful permanent (Glen, Trinisphere, Or Trinket into EE, Chalice, Needle, Cage - which are effectively 3ofs.) Glen Elendra is absolutely brutal against Combo, and decent off of show and tell, plus she's a clock. I prefer her over Venser, mostly because i can't seem to get double blue with the lines I like to take. Highly recommended. Venser is also fine. The key is to not rely only on a few counters.

I don't see myself running emperion, I think counterspells and a Titan-centric approach cover his effect well. Though it is strong.

I actually feel that 1 map is criminally low. Barely justified by 2 trinkets making it searchable, and ponders. It was the area most harmed by FOW blue count. The colorless mana fixing is very good. But most of all its game ending search for cavern or eye is too good to pass up. I want to get 2 in with 2 trinkets.

Relic is definitely good in the Meta, but I like to 'push' Titan, and very often I get bog to do the job of fighting delve.

The burn MU is well covered in this thread, and generally a very positive matchup for UG, but there are some easy mistakes most people make. What I do is only care about PoP, and go about my business. Ideally assembling SnT Titan. The thing is, if they can reach back over you, you must get chasm. Chasm is key. If you can't get Titan early, limp along on GP life and HOLD crop for chasm. This plan becomes much easier with the high counterspells count I have, and flusterstorm is a great weapon here, where Swan song is not. The key is to never leave yourself exposed to Price, ever. Then you can break the game open with uncontrollable life gain, or Eldrazi. I also bring in Kgrip for Eidolon and Vortex, which aren't game over, but must be respected. If you plan on seeing it, bring BEBs!

Okay great! eventually i will probably get fluster, but i have to wait for the dust to settle. i recently bought the entire deck with many sideboard / tweaking options, which set me back quite a bit and not everyone can understand spending that much on cards (you know how it is…). I was thinking of swan song, which i already have in the sideboard. I was asking about the burn matchup as i got burned badly yesterday. I'm guessing that my inexperience did contribute to this and that I will get to handle this match up in the future. Oh and yes Venser “sucks” here. I just can’t cast him most of the time, it’s frustrating. I’ll switch to glen as advised…

Thanks for the insights!

[Zotmaster]

Tim's insight is great as usual, but I feel he did not emphasize one particular point enough regarding the Burn matchup, so I'm going to do it:


If you can't get Titan early, limp along on GP life and HOLD crop for chasm.

Short of having spells to kill you twice over - in which case you just ask RNGesus why he hast forsaken you - Burn can't do much about green source + Crop Rotation. In this way, you can control both how much damage you take, and perhaps more importantly, when you take said damage. In a GPTrial last year, I baited out a Fireblast by allowing a Price of Progress to bring me down to 4 life. My opponent sacrificed his only two mountains to go for the finisher, and I won the game shortly after with a Titan. As long as Glacial Chasm doesn't end up in your hand, green source + Crop Rotation can buy you enough turns to eventually do what you need to do.

[MtgVector]

Elves has become such unwinnable match up now that they play Shaman of the Pack.

I used to be that we could drop Chasm, sit back and assemble the Eldrazi. Now, they "go off" and keep playing and replaying SotP. My only answer so far is Sphere of Resistance / Trinisphere. Anyone has tested other cards?

[Togores]

Lately I have been playing tabernacle md and chasm sb.
Its usualy better to choke their mana and againat mentor and pyromancer.
Just also is good vs elves^^

[Ponders]

Candelabra 3x
Sensei 3x


Emrakul
Koz
Ulamog
Primeval Titan 4x
Tidespout Tyrant ** /(new Ula)


Brainstorm 4x
Force 4x
Stifle 4x
Crop 3x

Show and Tell 3x **

4 Cloud
4 Glimmer
4 Vesuva
Bog
Karakas
Tabernacle
Glacial
Eye of Ugin
2 Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta

1x Ugin the Spirit Dragon


Sideboard
4x Surgical
4x Misdirection - Vs Shardless, Pox. Ancestral target.
4x BEB
3x Sphere of Resistance ?

Sideboard probably switches out for snt and tyrant unless its against red.

Just trying it out.
Show and tell for speed.
Tidespout Tyrant because the card is horrid and I run a lot of instants. At 8 mana its almost cast-able.

[Morden]

Grats on the finish! I've got a couple of questions.
1. What brought you to play 3 MB Emperions? That seems so totally crazy to me, but they must have done work to get you that far.
2. How was the MB Swan Song? Did it feel better than a Flusterstorm?
3. You have Bojuka Bog in the sideboard. Did you play against reanimator at all? Did you miss it? Bog is such a trump game 1 in some bad matchups, I can't imagine taking it out of the main.
4. How often did slamming Show and Tell not work? Is it just bad against Omni? Card is pretty sick
5. How long have you been playing this white splash? Care to comment on some of your white sideboard choices? I'm most interested about the Sacred Ground.
6. Repeal is looking worse and worse in this format. What are your opinions on its continued inclusion.
7. Bouncing Venser with Karakas is sick, but 2UU is hard in U/G and I imagine very difficult with the white splash. How did you do casting this sweet wizard?

That's all I can think of. Again, congratulations!
Great questions! I have the same doubts, and I want to add some comments to your questions:
1)You already have terminus against creatures-based decks, do you really need THREE emperion? Let's see the most played decks: miracle, omnitell, grixis. Against the first is useless (terminus and swords to plowshares), against omnitell also, and versus grixis you have 4 terminus. Don't you think is better change at least 2 emperion for some classical creatures like wurmcoil, kozilek, or omnitell hate? Wurmcoil is generelly usefull, can be hardcasted easily and it's much better then emperion against liliana.
2) I really like the sinergy between swan song and terminus (and also emperion in fact). But mainbord, didn't you miss the opportunity to counter planeswalker or artifact? I think swan song is a good replacement for flusterstorm, but not for spell pierce.
3)Tabernacle and chasm are not necessary in this configuration, but bojuka can really save you against some ultrafast deck, and if your opponent's graveyard is filling quickly, can prevent a DTT. I'd remove a cavern for 1 bojuka.
4)I think you won a lot of game with S&T, isn't it? Nothing to say, great card against everything but omnitell. Personally I prefer an "honest" hardcasting :D, but I know the strenght of S&T. Against omnitell also ramping is quite difficult, 'cause it wins easily before we can drop some big ones.
5)I love sacred ground: in some matchups our cloudposts must not see the graveyard, an Extirpate can really hurt. Also for this reason, why not Rest in Peace? or BEB? What's in general your favorite cards to name for meddling mage?
6)I like repeal for its trick with sensei, and sometimes can slow down your opponent. But I think 3 is a waste for this meta....if you really like it, I'd go for 2 repeal and 1 Cyclonic Rift, that's another win condition.
7)I think Venser is put here only against Omnitell and I agree, it's a great card against it. I prefer trinisphere, if you put it on the battlefield thanks to oppo's S&T, there is NOTHING he can do. With "comes in to play" effects the opponent can wish to trickbind....

[Neko448]

5)I love sacred ground: in some matchups our cloudposts must not see the graveyard, an Extirpate can really hurt. Also for this reason, why not Rest in Peace? or BEB? What's in general your favorite cards to name for meddling mage?


Sacred Ground will unfortunately not save you from extirpate and its ilk, since Sacred Ground uses a triggered ability instead of a replacement effect, so the land will spend a priority swap in the graveyard. (e.g. Surgical Extraction on Emrakul)

[Morden]

Sacred Ground will unfortunately not save you from extirpate and its ilk, since Sacred Ground uses a triggered ability instead of a replacement effect, so the land will spend a priority swap in the graveyard. (e.g. Surgical Extraction on Emrakul)

loool, this is true!! So I still don't understand why TWO sacred XD.

[TheBoozeCube]

Elves has become such unwinnable match up now that they play Shaman of the Pack.

I used to be that we could drop Chasm, sit back and assemble the Eldrazi. Now, they "go off" and keep playing and replaying SotP. My only answer so far is Sphere of Resistance / Trinisphere. Anyone has tested other cards?

All Is Dust, Ugin, and Oblivion Stone are all great against Elves. It's usually very difficult for them to recover from a well-timed board wipe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[deadlock]

General observations

White splash is not what the deck needs. A well tuned UG list should be able to beat fair matchups g1 and unfair g2/3 if not g1. Also it is just too greedy to play three colors + a lot of colorless (a key factor in the deck). We also have plenty of options for combo matchups in UG.
In testing I realized that the deck has shifts between two aspects and balancing both is the key to create a strong list.
The first is the blue-general-utility aspect of the deck represented by cards like FoW, Stifle / Trickbind, Spell Pierce, Repeal and so on. These spells are very flexible, but not as powerful as more specialized cards. We are also limited in the amount of colored spells we can support by the manabase as said.
The second aspect is the specialized land (and artifact) utility cards we can run like Tabernacle, Bojuka Bog, Needle etc. The problem is that they are dead in some matchups, make draws less consistent and require special tutor cards like Expedition Map (and maybe Trinket Mage). Cuteness and slowness also characterizes these builds.
Currently I tend towards the first approach, which was demonstrated by the Ugw list to a certain extend. We beat Miracles handily, so lets concentrate on Omni, D&T and Delver variants (while keeping Loam and other combo decks in mind).


Individual card discussion

FoW fits in the deck very well, because we need spells with wide applications in the main deck. Tim's list runs too few blue cards for my taste. A healthy 20 blue cards seem like a fine number (needs number crunching as backup).
Trinket Mage package is the epitome of cuteness and slowness. Currently I would be even more radical and say, that the same is true for Expedition Map + utility lands. Which leads to the approach of stripping away 'all' 'conditional' cards and concentrate on the main game plan, supported by wide-array answers and then add single purpose cards back in if need be.
As we cannot support UU for Dig, I think we have to run 2 better 3 Relics in the main deck. Dig is just too strong, to not account for it and Relic is an extremely flexible card.
This one may sound strange, but I am not convinced by running Candelabra, because it requires to have both the right lands in play and something to do with these lands. It allows us to go nuts, but in my view the critical point is to reach this game state in the first place. I might play it in the future, because it also allows us to wash colorless into colored mana before we go nuts. I gladly get proven otherwise, but wanted to touch it and not treat it as a holy cow.
Kozilek and Emperion compete for the same slot imo. I like Emperion more currently, because he is game ending in quite a bit of matchups and also stabilizes the game more than Kozilek, which is stronger in the face of counters (if hardcasted!).
Ugin is a strange card. It is extremly strong against fair decks, but cannot be cheated in by S&T or searched for, which makes him far worse imo. I considered a build with Intuition -> Loam, Ugin, Haven, but this is again pretty slow. I am not sure if he is really needed in the main deck. Same is true for Tidespout Tyrant. He is strong in certain matchups, but incredible weak in others.
I am not sure about Repeal. I still run it as a 3of, because I cant think of a better card in its slot (which is also blue!). Metashift is a valid argument against it. It also cannot destroy Chalice on 1 unlike EE. It might get cut down to max out my other blue cards. Have to test more.

EDIT: I can see a Trinket Mage package instead of Repeal. While slow TM gives us a much stronger mid / late game. The trinkets are also good in a wider array of matchups than the utility lands. As said it is the twist between the two aspects.

[Rock Lee]

Currrent list I have gotten 1st, 1st, 2nd in my last 3 weekly legacy events with:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [OD] Island (4)
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ALA] Forest (1)
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [TSP] Vesuva

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
3 [SOM] Platinum Emperion

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [US] Show and Tell
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [TSP] Wipe Away

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

When I start to stabilize on a list, I like it quite a bit. This is one of those.

[Neko448]

Currrent list I have gotten 1st, 1st, 2nd in my last 3 weekly legacy events with:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [OD] Island (4)
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ALA] Forest (1)
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [TSP] Vesuva

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
3 [SOM] Platinum Emperion

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [US] Show and Tell
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [TSP] Wipe Away

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

When I start to stabilize on a list, I like it quite a bit. This is one of those.

1.) What made you move Wipe Away to the mainboard? The second Cavern?
2.) How do you feel about your Omni-Tell game 1?
3.) Is Platinum Emperion really that good? Can our opponents just never remove this card?

Thank you. Please continue being cool.

[Zotmaster]

Currrent list I have gotten 1st, 1st, 2nd in my last 3 weekly legacy events with:

Not to pepper you with questions, but now that you have Engineered Explosives in the board, what particular matchup do you have in mind for it? Especially now that the list has no Trinket Mage, I was wondering where in particular it fits.

[Morden]

lol, does someone fear omnitell? :D
I like the list, but did you try some games with fast creatures-based decks (elves, grixis, goblin...)? Does the plan "crop->chasm->wait emperion" work? I have some fears without ugin (correct by the way, it doens't fit well with S&T), oblivion stone, tabernacle and no counters to defend crop or S&T.

[Ponders]

Has anyone tried doubling down on ramp strategy? Running something like Carpet of Flowers + Exploration/Explore? Is Manabond at all viable?

[Rock Lee]

1.) What made you move Wipe Away to the mainboard? The second Cavern?
2.) How do you feel about your Omni-Tell game 1?
3.) Is Platinum Emperion really that good? Can our opponents just never remove this card?

Thank you. Please continue being cool.

Game one against omni is still a nightmare. Really only wipe away or x2 Trickbind will save you.
Platinum Emperion is quickly becoming my favorite go-to. I was on the fence with it until I realized you can't alternate cast Invigorate with it in play. Now it is still decent versus infect. Not remotely what I would call "good," but perhaps "good enough."


Not to pepper you with questions, but now that you have Engineered Explosives in the board, what particular matchup do you have in mind for it? Especially now that the list has no Trinket Mage, I was wondering where in particular it fits.

I bring in EE versus fair matchups. all of 'em. Delvers, Deathrites, Pyromancer/Mentor, Counterbalance, chalice decks, storm. Essentially Wipe away is my pre-board against Omni, where EE would be in that slot.

Still would like some Relic of Progenitus in here somewhere, but no room at the moment.

[k_omega]

Has anyone tried doubling down on ramp strategy? Running something like Carpet of Flowers + Exploration/Explore? Is Manabond at all viable?

I tested Exploration in mono-green and it was a disaster. For it to have a real effect you need: 1) two lands to play, and 2) a way to make the second land relevant on that turn. Beyond the opening turns condition 1 is difficult to meet, and during the opening turns satisfying condition 1 makes condition 2 harder because having extra lands means you have fewer spells, i.e. things to do with the extra land. If the second land doesn't open up any new plays this turn, wouldn't you rather just play it the following turn and have the Exploration be something else? On the balance I would rather have had something else.

Granted, sometimes you get to dump a bunch of lands early and Exploration does mitigate the drawback of Glacial Chasm, but usually that situation results in hoping to topdeck something to use the mana on. Then you draw more Explorations...

I can't speak to Carpet of Flowers - I have one in my sideboard but haven't had it come up yet. Manabond seems out of place since we don't usually get land-heavy hands, and we want to keep the nonlands unless they are all uncastable Eldrazi. Those hands should just be mulliganed.

Explore has been satisfying but not impressive. I've been wavering between 2 Explore and 1 Explore + 1 Moment's Peace in my build. It's not too hard to set up turns where your first two lands provide 1G and then drop a Cloudpost a turn early. In comparison to Exploration, Explore draws a card (huge, and makes it a non-terrible late topdeck), is invulnerable to Chalice on 1, but is a one-shot effect. However, in practice Exploration is usually a 1- or maybe 2-shot effect anyway so how much are you really giving up?

I've never tried more than 2 Explore. If I wanted to ramp hard, I would start by trying 4 Explore and at least 2 Oracle of Mul Daya. Oracle provides the Exploration effect but doesn't require lands to be in hand, and works really well with top.

[Ponders]

I tested Exploration in mono-green and it was a disaster. For it to have a real effect you need: 1) two lands to play, and 2) a way to make the second land relevant on that turn. Beyond the opening turns condition 1 is difficult to meet, and during the opening turns satisfying condition 1 makes condition 2 harder because having extra lands means you have fewer spells, i.e. things to do with the extra land. If the second land doesn't open up any new plays this turn, wouldn't you rather just play it the following turn and have the Exploration be something else? On the balance I would rather have had something else.

Granted, sometimes you get to dump a bunch of lands early and Exploration does mitigate the drawback of Glacial Chasm, but usually that situation results in hoping to topdeck something to use the mana on. Then you draw more Explorations...

I can't speak to Carpet of Flowers - I have one in my sideboard but haven't had it come up yet. Manabond seems out of place since we don't usually get land-heavy hands, and we want to keep the nonlands unless they are all uncastable Eldrazi. Those hands should just be mulliganed.

Explore has been satisfying but not impressive. I've been wavering between 2 Explore and 1 Explore + 1 Moment's Peace in my build. It's not too hard to set up turns where your first two lands provide 1G and then drop a Cloudpost a turn early. In comparison to Exploration, Explore draws a card (huge, and makes it a non-terrible late topdeck), is invulnerable to Chalice on 1, but is a one-shot effect. However, in practice Exploration is usually a 1- or maybe 2-shot effect anyway so how much are you really giving up?

I've never tried more than 2 Explore. If I wanted to ramp hard, I would start by trying 4 Explore and at least 2 Oracle of Mul Daya. Oracle provides the Exploration effect but doesn't require lands to be in hand, and works really well with top.


I've been lookign at the lands shell and whether it would be possible to run 34 lands, with extra protection like mazes. Granted, there's a lot of stuff there that simply doesn't fit the plan. But, the list I'm looking at runs 4 exploration, 4 crop and 2 manabond.

Something like,

4 Sensei
3 Candel
4 Crop
3 Manabond
3 (Oracle of Muldaya)

4 titans
em
koz
ula

4 cloud
4 glimmer
4 vesuva

3 maze
chasm
tabernacle
bog

4 show and tell (Plan B)

eye ugin
karakas
misty rainforest 4
forest 4
island 3

I really like the idea, and it probably handles the fair decks well enough. Unfortunately its going to have the same problem with degenerate combos as most every other post deck.

[mykatdied]

I've been playing around with a similar idea in my gw build. This is what I have so far.
// Deck: 12 post (60)

// Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Savannah
2 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Vesuva
4 Windswept Heath

// Creatures
3 Courser of Kruphix
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
3 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

// Spells
2 Alhammarret's Archive
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Dragonlord Dromoka
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Rule of Law
SB: 2 Sacred Ground
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Basically idea is to take advantage of having early creatures to help nullify aggressive decks and with courser and oracle gain access to your top deck running the full 4 tops and archive allows us to gain more life and take advantage of top and our extra land drops to go full on ramp while digging into threats. It is quite possible that needle should still be in here. I've yet to test this build but I will be soon enough.

[fullmetal779]

so i went to a local legacy tourney that is starting to become weekly and i tried out the 3of trickbind and it just wins some games like i had some one using doomsday worldgourger dragon with oona to mill me out and there was the jeskai miracles deck and 2 storm decks ( that i played against) trickbind game one just blew the OP out of the water hitting the oona to stop her ability and making him lose the mana the world gourger had got him though i am not a pro with this deck and am still getting the land choices down a bit more im really liking the blue for trick bind and repeal

[into_play]

I made the top 8 out of 20 players at the conclusion tournament of our Arizona Legacy series. Beat BUG Delver, lost to Elves, beat Merfolk, beat Omnitell, beat Miracles, then lost to Merfolk in the top 8. Was playing this list:

4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

3 Crop Rotation
2 Krosan Grip

4 Brainstorm
2 Repeal
4 Show and Tell

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Glacial Chasm

Sideboard
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Trinisphere
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

The two maindeck Krosan Grip were there because the tournament was invite-only and I knew everyone attending, expecting 3-4 Omnitell players. I was hoping that the two maindeck copies would allow me to potentially steal a game one against an Omni opponent. Even though I didn't win the first game against my one Omnitell opponent, the configuration postboard actually made me feel very confident about the matchup as a whole. An expected high turnout of Miracles players further made the maindeck Grips reassuring.

Let me say that if you are looking for a 12Post build to defeat Omnitell, this list would be a really good place to start. The split-second removal to Omniscience (Krosan Grip or Wipe Away) are BYFAR the most and only important answer; excessive countermagiac or a specific hate card to put into play off of their Show and Tell might not be necessary at all against Omnitell. If you put in a permanent like Trinisphere or Arcane Laboratory, it will be pretty much useless if you don't have the answer for their enchantment. Of course, you need a permanent with a triggered ability in order to break up the opponent's priority. Trinisphere stops them until their next untap phase, so it succeeds in that regard, but I would never have felt safe with a Trinisphere in hand but no Grip.

So the answer to Omnitell requires two things - Grip/Wipe Away and a triggered ability permanent, preferably Primeval Titan since you can start winning with him. Beating Omnitell finally seems very possible to me.

Now I am in a dilemma with my future sideboard choices. In an unexpected metagame, I would remove the two mainboard Grips and replace them with another Candelabra and another Repeal to make my normal gameplan more reliable. But fitting them into my sideboard seems tough, since I'm not sure that I would want to go to any tournament right now with less than four somewhere in the 75. I do like Trinisphere for being at least relevant to drop in off of Show and Tell, as well as being proactive hate against Storm builds (I like a mixture of some number of counters plus pr-emptive hate against Storm). The Force of Will also give the deck a universal answer to so many different combo decks and makes me feel like I'm playing a top-notch deck more so than without it. Maybe the Pithing Needle and Mindbreak Trap could be replaced with Grips?

Also, I know I am late to the party with this, but the one Engineered Explosives felt awesome whenever I brought it in and saw it. I would definitely not be opposed to trying to squeeze in another one. I'm thinking about cutting the Ugin in the maindeck for another Explosives, since a cheap sweeper would have probably been better at many times during the day, and Ugin just feels somewhat out of place in the deck.

[Ehhh]

What's up guys. My name is John Kassari and I'm testing and brewing for the Legacy GP coming up. Usually I will do all the testing and work myself but I'm curious if I share my list and thought process will this speed up the process. I plan to do twitch streaming again in the near future but today I'm going to run a new list and explain some changes after the tournament today.. I'm using my phone so sorry about not using the clean version of this list..

4 Prime Time
1 Emrakul
1 Ulamog
1 Thragtusk
1 Oracle of mul data

4 Top
4 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Moments Peace
4 Crop Rotation
4 Green Suns Zenith
1 All is Dust
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Natural Selection
2 (Animist?) The new origins X Ramp Spell

2 Dryad Arbor
1 thespian stage
1 dark depths
1 bog
1 karakas
1 cavern of souls
1 Eye of ugin
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmer post
4 Vesuva
3 Any Green Fetch
3 Snow Covered Forest

Side board
1 Tabernacle
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Savannah
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 RIP
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 DawnStrider
1 Melira
1 Terrastadon


I'll do a quick review of what our bad or not goodmatchups are ..

elves is not easy without board wipes and tabernacle is mild sauce vs them. Fog is important to always keep up if you have moments peace in hand.

Omni tell is the worst.. you can't really beat it if they draw well basically they have to screw up. Terrastodon is like the oring card but versitile when they show in omniscience. They can't combo through thorn or sphere so they have to bounce those also. Sometimes they durdle and you can emrakul bounce with krakas to win but yeahh it is easily the worst matchup.

My Sb is still being tested but it is pretty much thoughtout.. a lot of the matches I lose I try to find out cards I could've played to make the matchup better.. Thragtusk was boarded in vs most delver matches and same with sphere of resis because they put you far ahead in most matchups taxing spells vs low mana decks and decks that try to cheat spells allow the game to be favorable if you have cloudpost. Green sun is amazing because the idea of the deck is to Cast Prime Time and is almost a lock win it finds eye of Ugin or puts your lifetotal out of reach.

A lot of the reason I built and currently play white instead of blue is the meta wasn't great for blue .. it allows cards like red elemental blast become live and merfolk islandwalk is relevant. In the storm matches they would duress and therapy me out of the hate cards and in that matchup you couldn't beat them. Forcing them to answer different hate cards is how I enjoy playing vs combo. Crop into Bog and Rip. Teeg Leyline Tax artifacts. The major factor of not playing trops was I would get my green source wastelanded and never be able to play the game since most of the spells I enjoy casting cost green.. prime time .. Gsz.. Crop Rotation ; see crop rotation is amazing with basic forest up you can play your posts and crop them if they are wastelanded. This build I'm comfortable piloting vs most decks.

I've read some comments about my list being inferior to the blue but I don't believe you have enough blue to make Force great and consistent, brainstorm needs more than 4 fetches to be awesome. Repeal is ok vs depths if they don't expect it and if you're playing candleabra for extra ramp. Green sun I'd like to say was my tech to this archetype .. it is very useful to the deck to allow turn 4 kill for Dark depths and allow your deck to be able to win a low resource game. All of the counterspells mean nothing without colored land and this deck doesn't have a ton where you can play colored spells and hold up counters. I can go on and on about the consistency factor and how important basic land is especially vs wasteland.

I started with Blue Splash and I played Todd Anderson on Camera for an Scg Invi .. I loved the deck and tested it a ton before that event and to where it is now I'm pretty convinced it is the correct build. Show and tell vs other big monsters is dead and it is really unnecessary vs the matches you bring it in against. The card is great when you have low resources like.. mulliganed and or were wastlelanded a couple of times. But I feel you can go to the dark depths route and win more consistently. You have ways to fetch the combo out too.(A lot of rambling but I'm sure you 12 post players can appreciate this Info and apply it to your game)

Maybe next month I'll stream this list and explain my lines to help and teach everyone watching.

I'll post to tonight how I did.
-John Kassari

[Neko448]

1 Natural Selection

Side board

1 Glacial Chasm


I'm not proud to admit it, but I had to look up Natural Selection. What are your thoughts/feelings on the inclusion of this card?

Also, I've always felt that Glacial Chasm steals many more G1s than G2s and 3s. Is the second Dryad Arbor really worth this card being inaccessible with our tutors game 1?

Glad you hear from you John, can't wait to see how you do!

[mykatdied]

What's up guys. My name is John Kassari and I'm testing and brewing for the Legacy GP coming up. Usually I will do all the testing and work myself but I'm curious if I share my list and thought process will this speed up the process. I plan to do twitch streaming again in the near future but today I'm going to run a new list and explain some changes after the tournament today.. I'm using my phone so sorry about not using the clean version of this list..

4 Prime Time
1 Emrakul
1 Ulamog
1 Thragtusk
1 Oracle of mul data

4 Top
4 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Moments Peace
4 Crop Rotation
4 Green Suns Zenith
1 All is Dust
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Natural Selection
2 (Animist?) The new origins X Ramp Spell

2 Dryad Arbor
1 thespian stage
1 dark depths
1 bog
1 karakas
1 cavern of souls
1 Eye of ugin
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmer post
4 Vesuva
3 Any Green Fetch
3 Snow Covered Forest

Side board
1 Tabernacle
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Savannah
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 RIP
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 DawnStrider
1 Melira
1 Terrastadon


I'll do a quick review of what our bad or not goodmatchups are ..

elves is not easy without board wipes and tabernacle is mild sauce vs them. Fog is important to always keep up if you have moments peace in hand.

Omni tell is the worst.. you can't really beat it if they draw well basically they have to screw up. Terrastodon is like the oring card but versitile when they show in omniscience. They can't combo through thorn or sphere so they have to bounce those also. Sometimes they durdle and you can emrakul bounce with krakas to win but yeahh it is easily the worst matchup.

My Sb is still being tested but it is pretty much thoughtout.. a lot of the matches I lose I try to find out cards I could've played to make the matchup better.. Thragtusk was boarded in vs most delver matches and same with sphere of resis because they put you far ahead in most matchups taxing spells vs low mana decks and decks that try to cheat spells allow the game to be favorable if you have cloudpost. Green sun is amazing because the idea of the deck is to Cast Prime Time and is almost a lock win it finds eye of Ugin or puts your lifetotal out of reach.

A lot of the reason I built and currently play white instead of blue is the meta wasn't great for blue .. it allows cards like red elemental blast become live and merfolk islandwalk is relevant. In the storm matches they would duress and therapy me out of the hate cards and in that matchup you couldn't beat them. Forcing them to answer different hate cards is how I enjoy playing vs combo. Crop into Bog and Rip. Teeg Leyline Tax artifacts. The major factor of not playing trops was I would get my green source wastelanded and never be able to play the game since most of the spells I enjoy casting cost green.. prime time .. Gsz.. Crop Rotation ; see crop rotation is amazing with basic forest up you can play your posts and crop them if they are wastelanded. This build I'm comfortable piloting vs most decks.

I've read some comments about my list being inferior to the blue but I don't believe you have enough blue to make Force great and consistent, brainstorm needs more than 4 fetches to be awesome. Repeal is ok vs depths if they don't expect it and if you're playing candleabra for extra ramp. Green sun I'd like to say was my tech to this archetype .. it is very useful to the deck to allow turn 4 kill for Dark depths and allow your deck to be able to win a low resource game. All of the counterspells mean nothing without colored land and this deck doesn't have a ton where you can play colored spells and hold up counters. I can go on and on about the consistency factor and how important basic land is especially vs wasteland.

I started with Blue Splash and I played Todd Anderson on Camera for an Scg Invi .. I loved the deck and tested it a ton before that event and to where it is now I'm pretty convinced it is the correct build. Show and tell vs other big monsters is dead and it is really unnecessary vs the matches you bring it in against. The card is great when you have low resources like.. mulliganed and or were wastlelanded a couple of times. But I feel you can go to the dark depths route and win more consistently. You have ways to fetch the combo out too.(A lot of rambling but I'm sure you 12 post players can appreciate this Info and apply it to your game)

Maybe next month I'll stream this list and explain my lines to help and teach everyone watching.

I'll post to tonight how I did.
-John Kassari

Wow it's actually great to see you post. The only reason I picked mono green post up again was because of your top finishes with your into the north build, hence the snow-covered forests in my list. I went quite different than you, being more on the ramp mana plan but that was the reason I went back to mono green post with the white splash after a while of not playing the deck. Why no into the north this time since you're still running dark depths combo?

[k_omega]

Maybe next month I'll stream this list and explain my lines to help and teach everyone watching.

I'll post to tonight how I did.
-John Kassari

I'd watch that stream. Watching you thrash Manaless Dredge on camera is the reason I picked up 12 post, and Legacy as a whole for that matter.

No Ugin? Natural Selection over Ancient Stirrings? Leyline of Sanctity over additional spheres? No Krosan Grip? I'd like to know your thoughts on those choices as they're quite different from what has worked well for me.

[Morden]

My friends, we have THE card:

http://mtg-news.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/aaee6238c0bd19bbb24e1b284b5ec972.png

When you cast Guide to Destruction, you may search your library for a colorless creature card with converted mana cost 7 or higher. If you do, shuffle your library, then put that card on top.

The first creature spell you cast each turn costs 2 less.

not sure for the UG build, but for the monogreen.....so, it's an eldrazi. if you have eye of ugin in play, it cost FOUR colorless mana. ok. you CAST it, and you tutor kozilek. Meanwhile, you have ONLY a 5/5 into play. Next turn, kozilek cost SIX (10-2 eye -2 guide). I can cry :cry:

[Vicar in a tutu]

http://i.imgur.com/6LpZMZ2.png

Conduit of Ruin {6}
Creature - Eldrazi
When you cast Conduit of Ruin, you may search your library for a colorless creature card with converted mana cost 7 or higher. If you do, shuffle your library, then put that card on top.
The first creature spell you cast each turn costs {2} less.
5/5

It doesn't put the creature into your hand... Why, WoTC? WHY?

[Ponders]

http://i.imgur.com/6LpZMZ2.png

Conduit of Ruin {6}
Creature - Eldrazi
When you cast Conduit of Ruin, you may search your library for a colorless creature card with converted mana cost 7 or higher. If you do, shuffle your library, then put that card on top.
The first creature spell you cast each turn costs {2} less.
5/5

It doesn't put the creature into your hand... Why, WoTC? WHY?



This is a deck desperate for some new tricks.

[Morden]

It doesn't put the creature into your hand... Why, WoTC? WHY?

for this!!!!!
https://mtgowikiprice.com/cards/en/avr/173.jpg

:cool:

[mykatdied]

Loving the spoilers so far. Even the desolation twin is pretty sick.

[atopebenidorm]

I hope a mishra workshop land for eldrazi or something like eldrazi temple...or more eye of ugin effect

[TheBoozeCube]

My friends, we have THE card:

http://mtg-news.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/aaee6238c0bd19bbb24e1b284b5ec972.png

When you cast Guide to Destruction, you may search your library for a colorless creature card with converted mana cost 7 or higher. If you do, shuffle your library, then put that card on top.

The first creature spell you cast each turn costs 2 less.

not sure for the UG build, but for the monogreen.....so, it's an eldrazi. if you have eye of ugin in play, it cost FOUR colorless mana. ok. you CAST it, and you tutor kozilek. Meanwhile, you have ONLY a 5/5 into play. Next turn, kozilek cost SIX (10-2 eye -2 guide). I can cry :cry:

I'm not impressed by this card for monogreen. Sure, you get a few magical Christmasland scenarios when the Eye is out early (although having the Eye out early is usually not optimal). But he seems too cute. I just can't justify a slot in an already-tight list when the Eye tutors for the big guys much more efficiently (that is, repeatedly, at instant speed, and can be easily tutored for itself).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TheBoozeCube]

I hope a mishra workshop land for eldrazi or something like eldrazi temple...or more eye of ugin effect

We have more than enough ramp. I want new ETB toolbox lands. We got Bojuka Bog last time. I'm hoping for a red land that deals 1 or black land that gives -1/-1. Basically, a land that we can use to kill a Pyromancer with Crop Rotation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Morden]

ok, I got excited by this card yesterday, but I think it can still deserve a try. Like animist.....but I think this one is better.
-sometimes eye is in your hand, or is the only colorless card revelaled with stirrings, etc etc. There are some cases where you have in the battlefield on early turns and of course it's useless in this case. With this eldrazi it could be a not wasted drop.
-it is colorless: titan needs 2 green mana; not hard to have, but normally you have to wait turn 4 to drop it. With this you can try the colorless way (cloudpost -> cloudpost/vesuva -> glimmerpost) and have a 5/5 on turn 3.
-it fits well with ancient stirrings: a lot of time I wasted titans for stirrings.....have a mid-power colorless eldrazi it's something (not critical of course) that this deck doens't have.

I know, all of this are "extreme" conditions, and maybe this card will be not a "must have". But I think that it's a wonderfull second choice, and if you have some free slots, you could give it a try.

[Neko448]

-sometimes eye is in your hand, or is the only colorless card revelaled with stirrings, etc etc. There are some cases where you have in the battlefield on early turns and of course it's useless in this case. With this eldrazi it could be a not wasted drop.
-it is colorless: titan needs 2 green mana; not hard to have, but normally you have to wait turn 4 to drop it. With this you can try the colorless way (cloudpost -> cloudpost/vesuva -> glimmerpost) and have a 5/5 on turn 3.
-it fits well with ancient stirrings: a lot of time I wasted titans for stirrings.....have a mid-power colorless eldrazi it's something (not critical of course) that this deck doens't have.


I can't see myself ever being glad I drew or cast this card. It's basically a blank 5/5, especially if you have an active Eye of Ugin. A random 5/5 does not ever seem better than resolving a titan, regardless of creature type, since a 5/5 will rarely keep us alive very long. Unlike Eye, this card cannot find garbage creatures we might like to play like Phyrexian Revoker, Silent Arbiter or some yet unspoiled incredible UG devoiddrazi. The waiting a turn thing is really bad in a deck whose core strategy is making it to the next turn. We already have a mid-power colorless Eldrazi from Scars of Mirrodin: Wurmcoil Engine.

In an unrelated note, they spoiled a very bad Temple of the False God. We'll probably get toolbox ETB lands in the next set or even the next block, based on how they treated the constellation cards.

[MechTactical]

I can't see myself ever being glad I drew or cast this card. It's basically a blank 5/5, especially if you have an active Eye of Ugin. A random 5/5 does not ever seem better than resolving a titan, regardless of creature type, since a 5/5 will rarely keep us alive very long. Unlike Eye, this card cannot find garbage creatures we might like to play like Phyrexian Revoker, Silent Arbiter or some yet unspoiled incredible UG devoiddrazi. The waiting a turn thing is really bad in a deck whose core strategy is making it to the next turn. We already have a mid-power colorless Eldrazi from Scars of Mirrodin: Wurmcoil Engine.

In an unrelated note, they spoiled a very bad Temple of the False God. We'll probably get toolbox ETB lands in the next set or even the next block, based on how they treated the constellation cards.

well since i'm fully committed to the deck I wish you are right... the next block will do just fine :wink:

[Mockingbird]

http://i.imgur.com/6LpZMZ2.png

Conduit of Ruin {6}
Creature - Eldrazi
When you cast Conduit of Ruin, you may search your library for a colorless creature card with converted mana cost 7 or higher. If you do, shuffle your library, then put that card on top.
The first creature spell you cast each turn costs {2} less.
5/5

It doesn't put the creature into your hand... Why, WoTC? WHY?

It was probably a testing issue.

What I do notice that I think might have passed over a few heads is ALL first creature spells cost :2: less, not just colorless ones. Casting a Primeval Titan for :2::g::g: could be something of interest. But I think the space issue is something still of concern. We'll see what testing brings.

Right now though, it's still the third most interesting card to our deck that's been spoiled so far. Second is Desolation Twin, but that's only because a 10/10 token on a cast trigger is interesting in both applying pressure and establishing presence, but considering that one to two 10/10's that don't do much else won't help that much. So far Ulamog 2.0 is the best thing spoiled for Legacy play.

[Ehhh]

I'm not proud to admit it, but I had to look up Natural Selection. What are your thoughts/feelings on the inclusion of this card?

Also, I've always felt that Glacial Chasm steals many more G1s than G2s and 3s. Is the second Dryad Arbor really worth this card being inaccessible with our tutors game 1?

Glad you hear from you John, can't wait to see how you do!

Hey neko .. natural selection is a nice show and tell esque card to sneak an early prime time.. my theory is that if prime time resolves in this deck it is pretty much Gg vs non combo decks. Dryad Arbor is the only turn 1 ramp and I have always enjoyed ramping on turn 1 it smooths the draws and allows t4 kills with dark depths combo. Chasm I feel is matchup specific to counter a price of progress or an all in attack vs goblins merfolk or elves. Playing chasm comes with a cost I'm not trying to buy I'm every match just some.

So the list was fine over the weekend but I want Ugin in the deck because it is so hard to defeat and I can't wait until the new Ulamog is out because I was stuck on 10 with 11 cc ulamog in my hand hating life.. added reclamation sage to Sb and beat Omni tell with t4 Dark depths g1. Then 3 thorn effects into hardcast Emrakul.

[Ehhh]

Wow it's actually great to see you post. The only reason I picked mono green post up again was because of your top finishes with your into the north build, hence the snow-covered forests in my list. I went quite different than you, being more on the ramp mana plan but that was the reason I went back to mono green post with the white splash after a while of not playing the deck. Why no into the north this time since you're still running dark depths combo?

Hey mykat I noticed into the North was the card I Sb out the most and Animist is a higher impact ramp spell just trying it out.

[Ehhh]

I'd watch that stream. Watching you thrash Manaless Dredge on camera is the reason I picked up 12 post, and Legacy as a whole for that matter.

No Ugin? Natural Selection over Ancient Stirrings? Leyline of Sanctity over additional spheres? No Krosan Grip? I'd like to know your thoughts on those choices as they're quite different from what has worked well for me.

Ugin I added over 1 Animist. Natural Selection is like a Show and tell very strong in the right spot.. low resources gamble fun. Spheres are great vs tendrals or belcher but they can win on turn 1 or 2 leyline let's you beat them or force them to have the bounce for it. Otherwise u play
them with fingers crossed. I dislike mindbreaktrap and flusterstorm because they can therapy or duress these cards out and combo off.. if you add teeg. Leyline and thorns or sphere they cannot combo through all.. my focus is on bad / horrible matchups so again I added reclamation sage because it forces omnitell to have the stifle effect. Is krosan grip better ? I haven't tried against omnitell but Ya all the green creatures are amazing with green sun zenith.

[fullmetal779]

Has any one tried running Animist's Awakening?
im thinking with 1 Bosejiu it could be viable crop rotate after floating a crapton of mana and boom Animist's Awakening into like 10 lands with it you have a sorcery in the yard seems fair to me

[Ponders]

Wouldn't Sphere of Resistance + Chain of vapor in hand do pretty well against omni?

[Hopo]

Wouldn't Sphere of Resistance + Chain of vapor in hand do pretty well against omni?

Sure, or any other two hate pieces you happen to have in hand as long as one is a permanent and another is instant removal.

[maCHOOga]

Hey sorry I'm a little late ive been busy. This was my deck from eternal weekend, the deck worked wonders, and if you guys have any questions about the list or w/e just let me know...

So I took Chris' Eweekend deck, sleeved it up and played my weekly with some minor mods.
-2 Platinum Emperion
+1 Kozilek & Ugin

Went 2-1. Lost to lands. Game 1 died the turn before Emperion got online. Game 2, hid behind sacred ground. Game 3, keep a greedy 7 and got punished.

I played against 3 different wasteland decks and after every matched I asked them all if sacred ground did anything. Two out of three people showed me wastelands in hand.

Wow....terminus is a heck of a magic card and it feels good to be casting Prime Time again! :-)

[Morden]

So I took Chris' Eweekend deck, sleeved it up and played my weekly with some minor mods.
-2 Platinum Emperion
+1 Kozilek & Ugin

Went 2-1. Lost to lands. Game 1 died the turn before Emperion got online. Game 2, hid behind sacred ground. Game 3, keep a greedy 7 and got punished.

I played against 3 different wasteland decks and after every matched I asked them all if sacred ground did anything. Two out of three people showed me wastelands in hand.

Wow....terminus is a heck of a magic card and it feels good to be casting Prime Time again! :-)

I'm gonna test it me too! I had the same feeling: keep only 1 emperion and add something more versatile. Sacred ground is great, but I don't know if it's better than a classic needle....beside the fact that it's not stopped by a chalice of the void, what's its advantage?

[Neko448]

Hey neko .. natural selection is a nice show and tell esque card to sneak an early prime time..

Ohhh, do you mean Natural Order? Natural Selection is "G Instant Look at the top three cards of your library and put them back in any order, you may shuffle your library."

I've never really liked the Stage/Depths combo in UG, but mono G is a very different deck. The combo doesn't have the stark inevitability of committing to activating Eye. I'd rather be playing something which allows me to take more turns that I otherwise would not be able to take, since I feel as if the higher the amount of turns in a game, the higher my win percentage will go with this deck.

As per Dryad Arbors, I totally forgot about the interaction between them and GSZ :P Thought they were for Liliana -2 which is not as prevalent as it used to be.

Floating a Flusterstorm/Mindbreak Trap with an SDT makes a lot of non-Xantid Swarm combo decks cold, which I feel is where those cards really shine.

Playing Rec Sage should be for it being a GSZ target. A good Omni Player will always have the Cunning Wish or the tools to get it. Split Second answers are so incredible against Omnitell and I think they are our most powerful tool in the matchup.

Ugin is probably better than Animist.


Wouldn't Sphere of Resistance + Chain of vapor in hand do pretty well against omni?

Not to sound like a broken record, but the split second cards are just so much better, imo. Putting in a primetime and bouncing their Omni in resp to the trigger feels so good and gives the tempo boost you really need to push through the rest of the game. While sphere is good, it can be played around and chain of vapor can be countered (not to mention that they can sac a land to bounce our sphere of resistance or w/e)

[maCHOOga]

I'm gonna test it me too! I had the same feeling: keep only 1 emperion and add something more versatile. Sacred ground is great, but I don't know if it's better than a classic needle....beside the fact that it's not stopped by a chalice of the void, what's its advantage?

In addition to stopping wasteland, Sacred Ground also stops Annihilator & Cataclysm, which is occasionally relevant. :-)

[Morden]

In addition to stopping wasteland, Sacred Ground also stops Annihilator & Cataclysm, which is occasionally relevant. :-)

you are right! I never thought to Cataclysm because in my meta D&T is basically absent.....

I'm gonna test the deck without repeal, adding some spell pierce/flusterstorm: I think it's better to have mainboard some answers to combo/counter, we can (maybe.....) win a g1 against omnitell....

[Ehhh]

[QUOTE=Neko448;903194]Ohhh, do you mean Natural Order? Natural Selection is "G Instant Look at the top three cards of your library and put them back in any order, you may shuffle your library."

yes Natural Order my phone has autocorrect didnt notice it lol but i'll try k. grip in that omni matchup :D

[Ehhh]

In addition to stopping wasteland, Sacred Ground also stops Annihilator & Cataclysm, which is occasionally relevant. :-)

I might be the first person to Top8 a Legacy event with Sacred Ground in my sideboard and I can honestly say the card isn't great - Usually the decks will answer with Abrupt Decay - The reason i put it in was because Mono Black Pox was a deck that was floating around .. that matchup is actually unwinnable without Sacred Ground.. In the mono green 12 post list you can hold up crop rotation to "save" your land against Wastelands. Anyway I feel like there is so many ways to get land with the deck anyway via (Top, Map, Crop, Oracle) 4 wastelands can stall you but they need to have pressure to defeat you - sometimes you have land heavy hands and it doesn't matter .. so pithing needle should be enough to stall the game from wastelands - Sacred Ground is just more cute than good.

[Ponders]

I might be the first person to Top8 a Legacy event with Sacred Ground in my sideboard and I can honestly say the card isn't great - Usually the decks will answer with Abrupt Decay - The reason i put it in was because Mono Black Pox was a deck that was floating around .. that matchup is actually unwinnable without Sacred Ground.. In the mono green 12 post list you can hold up crop rotation to "save" your land against Wastelands. Anyway I feel like there is so many ways to get land with the deck anyway via (Top, Map, Crop, Oracle) 4 wastelands can stall you but they need to have pressure to defeat you - sometimes you have land heavy hands and it doesn't matter .. so pithing needle should be enough to stall the game from wastelands - Sacred Ground is just more cute than good.


I like misdirection for that match. Format skews blue for a reason. I'm also finding myself in agreement on the split second cards. While stifle is a great t1 play if you happen to have 2 or a crop in hand, trickbind is just a level better. I'm also finding pithing needle to be a really versatile card and powerful answer to the post problem provided you can get it passed a chalice or counter.

[k_omega]

Ugin I added over 1 Animist. Natural Selection is like a Show and tell very strong in the right spot.. low resources gamble fun. Spheres are great vs tendrals or belcher but they can win on turn 1 or 2 leyline let's you beat them or force them to have the bounce for it. Otherwise u play
them with fingers crossed. I dislike mindbreaktrap and flusterstorm because they can therapy or duress these cards out and combo off.. if you add teeg. Leyline and thorns or sphere they cannot combo through all.. my focus is on bad / horrible matchups so again I added reclamation sage because it forces omnitell to have the stifle effect. Is krosan grip better ? I haven't tried against omnitell but Ya all the green creatures are amazing with green sun zenith.

Assuming that you're referring to Natural Order then I see what you mean.

My problem with Leylines was that Storm could find bounce before I could actually kill them, at which point the Leyline became insufficient to win. Sphere/Thorn + Leyline worked well but the number of sideboard slots needed to have a reliable chance of seeing that combination became prohibitive. Perhaps with the prevalence of cantrip-fueled decks it makes sense to maindeck some spheres to gain a greater density of hate cards and free up sb space.

I have a 3/1 SB split between Krosan Grip and Rec Sage. If I didn't use GSZ it would be 4 Grips. Mostly this is because grip more reliably kills Blood Moon and Back to Basics and reliablity is key since I probably only see one Grip/Sage per game. My plan against Omni is to hold an ETB permanent to gain priority at some point and use that window to take out Omniscience. Krosan Grip + ETB permanent also allows you to beat Wish into Trickbind which Rec Sage cannot do.

[Ehhh]

Assuming that you're referring to Natural Order then I see what you mean.

My problem with Leylines was that Storm could find bounce before I could actually kill them, at which point the Leyline became insufficient to win. Sphere/Thorn + Leyline worked well but the number of sideboard slots needed to have a reliable chance of seeing that combination became prohibitive. Perhaps with the prevalence of cantrip-fueled decks it makes sense to maindeck some spheres to gain a greater density of hate cards and free up sb space.

I have a 3/1 SB split between Krosan Grip and Rec Sage. If I didn't use GSZ it would be 4 Grips. Mostly this is because grip more reliably kills Blood Moon and Back to Basics and reliablity is key since I probably only see one Grip/Sage per game. My plan against Omni is to hold an ETB permanent to gain priority at some point and use that window to take out Omniscience. Krosan Grip + ETB permanent also allows you to beat Wish into Trickbind which Rec Sage cannot do.


Yes Natural Order ..
12 Post has problems vs Combo Decks so playing Multiple Hate cards even if it is up to 12 slots is OK i'm not struggling vs other decks and I want to have a chance against my worst matchup is essentially what i'm trying to do with my SB. For Example : would I want to increase my overall % of winning against my worst matchup ? Yes, ofcourse so I'll do what is reasonable that gives me a chance. The other question to be asked is if there is enough versatile cards to sideboard in and I think there is. I want to be prepared for all matchups and understand what every sideboard slot is used for and for what matchup(s) and why is it necessary. My sideboard is against all my bad matchups ... I usually only sideboard 1-2 cards vs decks I should beat [Reclamation Sage is that versatile card slot as K Grip would be]

[Ehhh]

I like misdirection for that match. Format skews blue for a reason. I'm also finding myself in agreement on the split second cards. While stifle is a great t1 play if you happen to have 2 or a crop in hand, trickbind is just a level better. I'm also finding pithing needle to be a really versatile card and powerful answer to the post problem provided you can get it passed a chalice or counter.

Ya i'm fighting a different battle as G splash white the blue gives you some cool options but when I played Blue i found I was more land vulnerable because I had to play more land protection since wasteland on my tropical Island meant I wasn't casting colored spells. I just play basic forest and I'm not in danger of much in the format. Trickbind is nice but costs 1 extra which can be relevant! But back to Sacred Ground - it is really a meta call if you want extra protection - assuming you're playing 4x Pithing Needle and want a 5th (depends on meta).

[Postman]

When are you going to do the twitch stream?

Gesendet von meinem SM-G900F mit Tapatalk

[Ehhh]

When are you going to do the twitch stream?

Gesendet von meinem SM-G900F mit Tapatalk

I gotta get internet connection settled @ my home .. maybe in a month? or less hopefully

[maCHOOga]

I might be the first person to Top8 a Legacy event with Sacred Ground in my sideboard and I can honestly say the card isn't great - Usually the decks will answer with Abrupt Decay - The reason i put it in was because Mono Black Pox was a deck that was floating around .. that matchup is actually unwinnable without Sacred Ground.. In the mono green 12 post list you can hold up crop rotation to "save" your land against Wastelands. Anyway I feel like there is so many ways to get land with the deck anyway via (Top, Map, Crop, Oracle) 4 wastelands can stall you but they need to have pressure to defeat you - sometimes you have land heavy hands and it doesn't matter .. so pithing needle should be enough to stall the game from wastelands - Sacred Ground is just more cute than good.

Every time I cast it this week, while it was on the stack, I said, "does my do nothing card resolve? " I'm not a fan of it either.

[Neko448]

http://i.imgur.com/PjaMhLX.jpg


Woah. Is this good? Does it do enough late game? This absolutely needs testing. How do you get magiccards.info to show all the relevant even numbered cards in legacy? haha

[Zotmaster]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Void-Winnower-Battle-for-Zendikar-Spoiler.png


Woah. Is this good? Does it do enough late game? This absolutely needs testing. How do you get magiccards.info to show all the relevant even numbered cards in legacy? haha

I don't know. At a glance I don't think it will be that strong, as odd-CMC is much deadlier. Even does shut out Abrupt Decay, Tarmogoyf, Young Pyromancer, Tendrils of Agony, Dig Through Time and Daze. Still, I'd much rather shut out every 1 CMC cantrip, Force of Will and Deathrite Shaman. The other key is that pretty much all of those will come down first, and relevant removal (Maelstrom Pulse, Swords to Plowshares, Innocent Blood), are all still live against it.

EDIT: Imgur link since I know the card you're talking about but it's not showing up:

http://i.imgur.com/PjaMhLX.jpg

[Cire]

Sideboard vs Miracles? Shuts off CB, Terminus, and Supreme Verdict.

[MechTactical]

I don't know. At a glance I don't think it will be that strong, as odd-CMC is much deadlier. Even does shut out Abrupt Decay, Tarmogoyf, Young Pyromancer, Tendrils of Agony, Dig Through Time and Daze. Still, I'd much rather shut out every 1 CMC cantrip, Force of Will and Deathrite Shaman. The other key is that pretty much all of those will come down first, and relevant removal (Maelstrom Pulse, Swords to Plowshares, Innocent Blood), are all still live against it.

EDIT: Imgur link since I know the card you're talking about but it's not showing up:

http://i.imgur.com/PjaMhLX.jpg

It's probably getin a baby brother an odd one?

[Ehhh]

It's probably getin a baby brother an odd one?

At first I thought it was bonkers because my friend posted something about this card being 'Odd' - Odd shuts off alot of the cards vs Omnitell (Show and Tell) and Brainstorm / Ponder effects but maybe this is better actually because they can't use Cunning Wish which is the most important card in the deck it might be playable.

[L10]

Nope. Cunning Wish has a CMC of 3. Chalice at 3 shuts off OmniTell completely unless they have Boseju. I want an odd version with an CMC of 8. That'd be insane.

[Ehhh]

Nope. Cunning Wish has a CMC of 3. Chalice at 3 shuts off OmniTell completely unless they have Boseju. I want an odd version. That'd be insane.

ahhh i thought cunning costed 2 only haha ok so yes we want an Odd to bring in vs Omnitell :D

[Lemnear]

http://i.imgur.com/PjaMhLX.jpg

Void "Win Now" er ... clever ... really clever

[Ehhh]

wow just to think if they print an odd we can just Eye of Ugin activate for it when they show n tell :D !

[maCHOOga]

I don't think that no-Evens eldrazi isn't good enough for this deck.

Doubtful they will print one that shuts off odd spells, as it would be very difficult to kill. If they did, Tooth and Nail would become the most broken magic card ever. 9 mana, you win.

Also did you see the "Hedron Network" card? (I think it's called Leyline of the Hedrons or something) It's a colorless oblivion ring for all our creatures...that any deck could play. Lets hope that never catches on.

[Darkenslight]

I don't think that no-Evens eldrazi isn't good enough for this deck.

Doubtful they will print one that shuts off odd spells, as it would be very difficult to kill. If they did, Tooth and Nail would become the most broken magic card ever. 9 mana, you win.

Also did you see the "Hedron Network" card? (I think it's called Leyline of the Hedrons or something) It's a colorless oblivion ring for all our creatures...that any deck could play. Lets hope that never catches on.

It's also five mana.

[Zotmaster]

It's also five mana.

Four mana if Mythic Spoiler is to be believed.

[H]

Four mana if Mythic Spoiler is to be believed.

http://i.imgur.com/h6eDd43.png

4 CMC, 5 Power exiled.

[Mockingbird]

I don't know. At a glance I don't think it will be that strong, as odd-CMC is much deadlier. Even does shut out Abrupt Decay, Tarmogoyf, Young Pyromancer, Tendrils of Agony, Dig Through Time and Daze. Still, I'd much rather shut out every 1 CMC cantrip, Force of Will and Deathrite Shaman. The other key is that pretty much all of those will come down first, and relevant removal (Maelstrom Pulse, Swords to Plowshares, Innocent Blood), are all still live against it.

EDIT: Imgur link since I know the card you're talking about but it's not showing up:

http://i.imgur.com/PjaMhLX.jpg

I think this may be the weirdest hate card in Magic the Gathering. It has hope, but all the cards you listed will have done their damage before this card ever gets online unless it's a slow crawl game against control. Those cards still need to be handled likely by forcing an early Chalice of the Void through.

It'd be a great sideboard against Omnitell that goes Into the Infinite -> Release the Ants, but they'd just awkwardly stumble into Emrakul. Actually, I'm pretty sure all Combo decks would be stalled or defeated by it. It could definitely replace Kozilek as the keep in Eldrazi against combo (I know few do it, but Tidings digs for hate) because it's a big body that doesn't need to dig for answers when it kills a bunch of theirs instead. It'd do bad things to opponents, but Control has answers in the odds. So that leaves this in the same spot as many of the BfZ cards: test it but unlikely.

I think a relevant card spoiled was Herald of Kozilek (http://mythicspoiler.com/bfz/cards/heraldofkozilek.html). It not only reduces Eldrazi spells, but Ugin, Karn and artifact cards as well. 0 mana Needles, Tops, and Maps... If only it wasn't izzet. Same final sentence as my comments on Void Winnower.

[mykatdied]

I think this may be the weirdest hate card in Magic the Gathering. It has hope, but all the cards you listed will have done their damage before this card ever gets online unless it's a slow crawl game against control. Those cards still need to be handled likely by forcing an early Chalice of the Void through.

It'd be a great sideboard against Omnitell that goes Into the Infinite -> Release the Ants, but they'd just awkwardly stumble into Emrakul. Actually, I'm pretty sure all Combo decks would be stalled or defeated by it. It could definitely replace Kozilek as the keep in Eldrazi against combo (I know few do it, but Tidings digs for hate) because it's a big body that doesn't need to dig for answers when it kills a bunch of theirs instead. It'd do bad things to opponents, but Control has answers in the odds. So that leaves this in the same spot as many of the BfZ cards: test it but unlikely.

I think a relevant card spoiled was Herald of Kozilek (http://mythicspoiler.com/bfz/cards/heraldofkozilek.html). It not only reduces Eldrazi spells, but Ugin, Karn and artifact cards as well. 0 mana Needles, Tops, and Maps... If only it wasn't izzet. Same final sentence as my comments on Void Winnower.

Herald, 2 tops and alhammarret's archive. Unlimited dig into your answers!

[Rock Lee]

I'm surprised people haven't mentioned that you can't dig through time with Winnower in play. I'm not necessarily saying it is good, but it is interesting.

[Postman]

"From Beyond" has just been spoilered... A must have for our deck! It's an enchantment, 3G casting cost, with devoid. At the beginning of the upkeep you get a mana Token, and you can sacrifice the enchantment, paying 1G and search the bib for an Eldrazi card and put it into your hand. For me, it's close to excellent...

[Vicar in a tutu]

"From Beyond" has just been spoilered... A must have for our deck! It's an enchantment, 3G casting cost, with devoid. At the beginning of the upkeep you get a mana Token, and you can sacrifice the enchantment, paying 1G and search the bib for an Eldrazi card and put it into your hand. For me, it's close to excellent...
Is it really that good? Can you elaborate which difficult match-ups it shores up or what you would remove from the deck to make room for it? (Honest questions, this is not snark.)

[Postman]

I'm on the UG build with 2 Ugins. Guess I will cut 1 Ugin and add 1 From Beyond. Not for a specific MU, but for my personal game plan. Fits good into my mana curve, and the tokens can jump block or provide mana. Already thought about "Awaking Zone" in the past, but you don't want to draw that one in mid or late game. Here shines "From Beyond": it's more expensive, but it's like a second" Eye of Ugin".

[Rock Lee]

Herald of Kozilek is still my favorite card in the set. Might tinker with it, futuresight, and Force of will for infinite combo of a different variety. Thus far enjoying Trickbind, Show & Tell, brainstorm, Wipeaway/Repeal main, and Herald of Kozilek would facilitate mana fixing tremendously.

Ulamog's nullifier is also quite interesting. A mystic snake for 12post.

[Ponders]

Is it really that good? Can you elaborate which difficult match-ups it shores up or what you would remove from the deck to make room for it? (Honest questions, this is not snark.)

None of these cards seem valuable at all for legacy. What are you going to do with a 9 cmc creature in a format where the match trajectory is decided by turn 2 or 3? At best you can SNT it in or be christmas fortunate enough to have it in your hand against omni. Maybe you're running reanimator and can get it into your graveyard on t1. From Beyond and Awakening zone are equally worthless, by the time you can cast them on turn 3 or 4 the game is essentially over and you'd have been better off running some mashup of manaweft slivers. Otherwise, these are cards for a standard slow match and wizards has no love for eternal colorless where we get a bunch of awesome cards with no chance of ever using them. The power level simply isn't there. Show us a 3/4 void winnower with cmc 3-4 or forget about it. How about an All is Dust with cmc 5, or with flashback or uncounterable for 7. Otherwise, you're running SNT to keep up (when you should be running Omni) and you're playing a fringe deck (purely for aesthetics) that doesn't place often enough to be statistically relevant.

Focus on getting over chalice on 1, getting everything countered by tempo, or getting stomped out by combo. Post needs a strong ramp and play on t1 or 2 to put down any kind of meta competitive lock. The format is trending hard against decks that go much longer than t3 or 4. D&T and Miracles both not showing well.

[TheBoozeCube]

None of these cards seem valuable at all for legacy. What are you going to do with a 9 cmc creature in a format where the match trajectory is decided by turn 2 or 3? At best you can SNT it in or be christmas fortunate enough to have it in your hand against omni. Maybe you're running reanimator and can get it into your graveyard on t1. From Beyond and Awakening zone are equally worthless, by the time you can cast them on turn 3 or 4 the game is essentially over and you'd have been better off running some mashup of manaweft slivers. Otherwise, these are cards for a standard slow match and wizards has no love for eternal colorless where we get a bunch of awesome cards with no chance of ever using them. The power level simply isn't there. Show us a 3/4 void winnower with cmc 3-4 or forget about it. How about an All is Dust with cmc 5, or with flashback or uncounterable for 7. Otherwise, you're running SNT to keep up (when you should be running Omni) and you're playing a fringe deck (purely for aesthetics) that doesn't place often enough to be statistically relevant.

Focus on getting over chalice on 1, getting everything countered by tempo, or getting stomped out by combo. Post needs a strong ramp and play on t1 or 2 to put down any kind of meta competitive lock. The format is trending hard against decks that go much longer than t3 or 4. D&T and Miracles both not showing well.

I think Void Winnower is interesting enough to warrant testing, although I have the feeling that it's still not good enough. I see it as a potential SB card vs OmniTell, where it shuts off a couple of important cards:

Dig Through Time
Release the Ants
Eladamri's Call
Impulse

The interesting thing about these particular cards is that it prevents us from dying on the spot to a single Cunning Wish, without them also having more. Without Eladamri's Call, they have to either have Emrakul in hand or rely on non-DTT cantrips to find it. And without a second Wish for Wipe Away, they can't Release the Ants either. So this might be a reasonable card to put in off an opposing Show & Tell.

However, is it better than Trinisphere or Sphere of Resistance here? Probably not. The main advantage that I think it has is that it doesn't just sit there and delay OmniTell; it also presents a 2-turn clock. That said, its mana cost makes it significantly less versatile in other matchups where Sphere or Trinisphere do important work, such as Elves and Storm.

[Ponders]

wow just to think if they print an odd we can just Eye of Ugin activate for it when they show n tell :D !

Yah, and to think you only need 7 mana with eye in play on turn 3.

[MechTactical]

None of these cards seem valuable at all for legacy. What are you going to do with a 9 cmc creature in a format where the match trajectory is decided by turn 2 or 3? At best you can SNT it in or be christmas fortunate enough to have it in your hand against omni. Maybe you're running reanimator and can get it into your graveyard on t1. From Beyond and Awakening zone are equally worthless, by the time you can cast them on turn 3 or 4 the game is essentially over and you'd have been better off running some mashup of manaweft slivers. Otherwise, these are cards for a standard slow match and wizards has no love for eternal colorless where we get a bunch of awesome cards with no chance of ever using them. The power level simply isn't there. Show us a 3/4 void winnower with cmc 3-4 or forget about it. How about an All is Dust with cmc 5, or with flashback or uncounterable for 7. Otherwise, you're running SNT to keep up (when you should be running Omni) and you're playing a fringe deck (purely for aesthetics) that doesn't place often enough to be statistically relevant.

Focus on getting over chalice on 1, getting everything countered by tempo, or getting stomped out by combo. Post needs a strong ramp and play on t1 or 2 to put down any kind of meta competitive lock. The format is trending hard against decks that go much longer than t3 or 4. D&T and Miracles both not showing well.

Yes exactly this. I like it. It’s not fair … like life itself right? why complain -> work with what you have… gimme solutions!

[Ponders]

There's no such thing as a good late game card in a format where there is no late game. Repeat that 3 times to yourself.

[Ponders]

http://i.imgur.com/h6eDd43.png

4 CMC, 5 Power exiled.

I look at that card and I think wizards is determined to make legacy a 3 deck format.

[into_play]

I look at that card and I think wizards is determined to make legacy a 3 deck format.

I don't understand why you think this card will be effective. They don't get a chance to cast this when we hardcast Emrakul. Once PrimeTime hits the battlefield, it's already done its job. The only thing I could see it possibly messing up would be put in by our Show and Tell when we drop in an Eldrazi, something that most people don't like to do. But even if they were to play this card, we could always Repeal/Wipe Away/Grip it at their EOT and then go to town on them our following turn.

I can't see this card being played over something like Ensnaring Bridge, which is more annoying for us and generally better against a lot of other decks.

[Ponders]

I don't understand why you think this card will be effective. They don't get a chance to cast this when we hardcast Emrakul. Once PrimeTime hits the battlefield, it's already done its job. The only thing I could see it possibly messing up would be put in by our Show and Tell when we drop in an Eldrazi, something that most people don't like to do. But even if they were to play this card, we could always Repeal/Wipe Away/Grip it at their EOT and then go to town on them our following turn.

I can't see this card being played over something like Ensnaring Bridge, which is more annoying for us and generally better against a lot of other decks.

ok, ill give you that.

[Zotmaster]

I'm surprised people haven't mentioned that you can't dig through time with Winnower in play. I'm not necessarily saying it is good, but it is interesting.

Come on, man! I totally did! :)

[Ponders]

Yes Natural Order ..
12 Post has problems vs Combo Decks so playing Multiple Hate cards even if it is up to 12 slots is OK i'm not struggling vs other decks and I want to have a chance against my worst matchup is essentially what i'm trying to do with my SB. For Example : would I want to increase my overall % of winning against my worst matchup ? Yes, ofcourse so I'll do what is reasonable that gives me a chance. The other question to be asked is if there is enough versatile cards to sideboard in and I think there is. I want to be prepared for all matchups and understand what every sideboard slot is used for and for what matchup(s) and why is it necessary. My sideboard is against all my bad matchups ... I usually only sideboard 1-2 cards vs decks I should beat [Reclamation Sage is that versatile card slot as K Grip would be]

I like the list, and the mono green route. I'm just not sure if I like it because its trying something new with animist, and that it seems to roll with a lot of options sphere, natural order, dark depths, krosan grip. It's like the swiss army knife of post decks. My only concern then is that running that many 1-2 of's dilutes any strategy you can have. Of course, doubling down on stifles and other land protection hasn't profited either.

[TheBoozeCube]

Just took 1st at a local Win-a-Trop today. I'm tired and on my phone, but I'll hopefully get around to a tournament report soon. (The last two rounds of Top 8 might be viewable on The Meadery's Twitch archives or YouTube channel. I don't know.)

In the meantime, here's my list:

Main Deck (61)

Creatures (4)
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells (28)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Exploration
3 Pithing Needle
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
2 All Is Dust
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Lands (29)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Maze of Ith
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
8 Forest

Sideboard (15)
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Trinisphere
3 Krosan Grip
4 Mindbreak Trap


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Morden]

congrats, also for the shirt :D.

I like the list, nothing to say. Only 4 traps in sideboard are strange to me.....you have 4 spheres against storm, why do you need also FOUR traps? I can understand 1 or 2....
Did you find any omnitell or burn?
To see you playing made me want to play the monogreen version again XD. I will wait the ban list and decide....

[TheBoozeCube]

congrats, also for the shirt :D.

I like the list, nothing to say. Only 4 traps in sideboard are strange to me.....you have 4 spheres against storm, why do you need also FOUR traps? I can understand 1 or 2....
Did you find any omnitell or burn?
To see you playing made me want to play the monogreen version again XD. I will wait the ban list and decide....

Thanks!

As far as 4x Traps goes, I'm sufficiently confident in my maindeck at handling any of the fair decks in the format that I don't really need to bring much in from the board. However, this also means that I have a LOT of dead cards in most combo matchups. Without a huge slew of sideboard hate, my Storm and Omni matchups are truly atrocious. With them, Storm goes to about 50% postboard, although Omni is still pretty wretched -- maybe 35%. Trap is also useful in a few other matchups though too, like Elves (although I don't bring in the full 4x there).

I didn't play against Omni or Burn. I did, however, play against High Tide (Reset) for my win-and-in. I lost game 1 with an Ulamog trigger still on the stack. But I won game 2 on the back of a turn 2 Trinisphere, followed by two Spheres. In game 3, my opponent attempted to go off at the end of the turn I cast Emrakul, before my extra turn. I attempted to Trap his High Tide, which he Forced. I let Force resolve, then hit his Meditate with the second Trap for the win.

If anyone else wants to watch, I found the link to the past broadcast (mislabeled as FNM for some reason):
http://www.twitch.tv/themeadery/v/15732954
My semifinals match against BUG Delver starts at around 54:00.

[Rock Lee]

Top 8'd the Legacy Premium IQ at the Worcester SCG Open with this list:

// Lands
2 [10E] Island (3)
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [M15] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
2 [SOM] Platinum Emperion

// Spells
4 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [TSP] Wipe Away
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [NPH] Dismember

Lost in both the swiss and the top 8 to the same deck, an esper monestary mentor amalgam deck that honestly got insanely sequencing lucky against me. Tragically the rest of the Top 8 was super soft to me and I easily would've final'd ifnot swept it per some extremely outlier lucky plays in 3 games both in the swiss and top 8 vs Esper control.

Testing some other builds for the local Lotus event next week, but this build has merit.

[Morden]

I don't understand why you guys prefer trickbind and wipe away over needle and krosan grip.
Needle is so great against a lot of thing, is inferior to trickbind only against decks that use abrupt decay. It costs only 1, is a permanent, great against rishadan port. I can understand trickbind in a build with 2/3 needle as secondary choice or with FOW, to have blue cards to pitch.
Wipe away is in our deck only for omnitell basically: why not use krosan? 1 green is easier to have than UU; destroy omniscense is better than bounce it;against miracle is a great card (wipe is useless); in general, against mud, chalice,equipment, there are a lot of things to target. Why wipe?

[Postman]

Top 8'd the Legacy Premium IQ at the Worcester SCG Open with this list:

// Lands
2 [10E] Island (3)
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [M15] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
2 [SOM] Platinum Emperion

// Spells
4 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [TSP] Wipe Away
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [NPH] Dismember

Lost in both the swiss and the top 8 to the same deck, an esper monestary mentor amalgam deck that honestly got insanely sequencing lucky against me. Tragically the rest of the Top 8 was super soft to me and I easily would've final'd ifnot swept it per some extremely outlier lucky plays in 3 games both in the swiss and top 8 vs Esper control.

Testing some other builds for the local Lotus event next week, but this build has merit.

Congrats!
Can you remember and share your MUs, please? How did Platinum Emperion perform? I tried it 2 weeks ago, but it didn't really help me (got sworded or bounced via Jace / sacced to Lilly). Mentor can quickly ruin your game plan, even the Miracles-MU :-/

[MGB]

Top 8'd the Legacy Premium IQ at the Worcester SCG Open with this list:

// Lands
2 [10E] Island (3)
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [M15] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
2 [SOM] Platinum Emperion

// Spells
4 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [TSP] Wipe Away
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [NPH] Dismember

Lost in both the swiss and the top 8 to the same deck, an esper monestary mentor amalgam deck that honestly got insanely sequencing lucky against me. Tragically the rest of the Top 8 was super soft to me and I easily would've final'd ifnot swept it per some extremely outlier lucky plays in 3 games both in the swiss and top 8 vs Esper control.

Testing some other builds for the local Lotus event next week, but this build has merit.

Are we going to get a round-by-round recap on this event in the Tournament Reports section?

This list looks intriguing. Congrats.

[Rock Lee]

Are we going to get a round-by-round recap on this event in the Tournament Reports section?

This list looks intriguing. Congrats.


Congrats!
Can you remember and share your MUs, please? How did Platinum Emperion perform? I tried it 2 weeks ago, but it didn't really help me (got sworded or bounced via Jace / sacced to Lilly). Mentor can quickly ruin your game plan, even the Miracles-MU :-/

Vaguely recalling before work (not going over my match notes yet) I played against a ton of tempo. x2 Rug, x3 Grixis Control, x1 Bug, x1 Esper control (loss), x1 ID with Omni.

Platinum Emperion was amazing all day. Against bug I trickbind's a -2 on lilly to cause them to scoop, saving it. Against Esper Control it was gain 8 life for 8 mana, which was enough to take that game. I like the card, but it feels very clunky. I have been testing ugin, spirit dragon in its stead.

Trickbind really was the clutch card of the event though. Constantly was against tempo digging so hard for wasteland or lilly only to get split second'd. Trickbind is the only card in magic I can hold onto while on the cusp of winning or losing and feel like I am in control. Of my 6 win's against tempo, I dropped 2 games, both of which were due to not seeing trickbinds while they had 3+ wastes.

[Morden]

Vaguely recalling before work (not going over my match notes yet) I played against a ton of tempo. x2 Rug, x3 Grixis Control, x1 Bug, x1 Esper control (loss), x1 ID with Omni.

Platinum Emperion was amazing all day. Against bug I trickbind's a -2 on lilly to cause them to scoop, saving it. Against Esper Control it was gain 8 life for 8 mana, which was enough to take that game. I like the card, but it feels very clunky. I have been testing ugin, spirit dragon in its stead.

Trickbind really was the clutch card of the event though. Constantly was against tempo digging so hard for wasteland or lilly only to get split second'd. Trickbind is the only card in magic I can hold onto while on the cusp of winning or losing and feel like I am in control. Of my 6 win's against tempo, I dropped 2 games, both of which were due to not seeing trickbinds while they had 3+ wastes.

In fact, I understand the "surprise" factor, and the synergy with surgical is great. I think I'm gonna try with 2 needle and 2 trick, there are some games where needle can win alone the match.
What are your ideas about wipe away/krosan grip? Why do you prefer the first? anyway, congrats!

[Darkenslight]

I don't understand why you guys prefer trickbind and wipe away over needle and krosan grip.
Needle is so great against a lot of thing, is inferior to trickbind only against decks that use abrupt decay. It costs only 1, is a permanent, great against rishadan port. I can understand trickbind in a build with 2/3 needle as secondary choice or with FOW, to have blue cards to pitch.
Wipe away is in our deck only for omnitell basically: why not use krosan? 1 green is easier to have than UU; destroy omniscense is better than bounce it;against miracle is a great card (wipe is useless); in general, against mud, chalice,equipment, there are a lot of things to target. Why wipe?

There's only two ways to counter Trickbind in Legacy: Blind flip on 2 from CB, and unmorph Voidmage Apprentice. Wipe away stops the Omni player from going off. They're both insane and underplayed, IMO, but they're not for every deck.

[mykatdied]

Top 8'd the Legacy Premium IQ at the Worcester SCG Open with this list:

Lost in both the swiss and the top 8 to the same deck, an esper monestary mentor amalgam deck that honestly got insanely sequencing lucky against me. Tragically the rest of the Top 8 was super soft to me and I easily would've final'd ifnot swept it per some extremely outlier lucky plays in 3 games both in the swiss and top 8 vs Esper control.

This couldn't be more accurate. Opp draws and cast mage on prime time. Rock draws a prime time. Opp draws and casts null rod. Rock draws and casts a relic of progen. GG. That was terrible timing in Rock's opp favor.

[Postman]

New spoiler: Sanctum of Ugin. It's a land. Taps for 1. When you cast a colorless spell for 7 or more, you may sacrifice the land and get an Eye of Ugin effect (tutor only).

[mykatdied]

New spoiler: Sanctum of Ugin. It's a land. Taps for 1. When you cast a colorless spell for 7 or more, you may sacrifice the land and get an Eye of Ugin effect (tutor only).

I like the idea of this for something like a metalworker list more than for a 12 post list. Mostly because it plays great with crucible to cycle through your threats 1 after another. Eventually 1 will kill them. In 12 post it is really just a 1 shot effect. However, the fact that is does at least tap for a mana gives you the versatility that a hand with 1 land and eye of ugin is usually a mulligan hand whereas this may not result in those kind of issues.

[TheBoozeCube]

New spoiler: Sanctum of Ugin. It's a land. Taps for 1. When you cast a colorless spell for 7 or more, you may sacrifice the land and get an Eye of Ugin effect (tutor only).

Pros:
Free tutor effect when you cast your first big colorless spell, including Ugin or All Is Dust.
Taps for mana.

Cons:
Only one use.
Requires you to already have a big spell in hand, so not great in topdeck mode.

While being able to chain All Is Dust into Kozilek seems appealing, I still don't think it's worth a slot. I can't see any realistic situations where I'd tutor for this over Eye.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Poron]

being Eye of Ugin Legendary, I would play 1 of each..

[Mockingbird]

Horribly Awry

:1::u:
Instant
Devoid
Counter Target Creature Spell with converted mana cost 4 or less. If that spell is countered this way, exile it instead of putting it in its owner's graveyard.

Seems... possibly sideboard-able. Biggest catch for me is that it's a counterspell (well, more like Essence Scatter) that can be pulled with Ancient Stirrings. On the other hand, we need a creature heavy meta for this to be really good.

[TheBoozeCube]

They've just spoiled a new cycle of ETB lands. The black one seems like it has potential: it puts a creature from your yard on top of your deck. It doesn't work well with the original Eldrazi, but it might be a useful trick to recur the new Ulamog. Or Primeval, Emperion, for those of you who play them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Morden]

There's only two ways to counter Trickbind in Legacy: Blind flip on 2 from CB, and unmorph Voidmage Apprentice. Wipe away stops the Omni player from going off. They're both insane and underplayed, IMO, but they're not for every deck.

I can partially agree with you about trickbind. But why wipe over krosan? Don't tell me that is "a repeal that works great again omnitell".....tricks with repeal and sensei/candelabra cannot be emulated by wipe, and it costs two blue mana.

[mykatdied]

They've just spoiled a new cycle of ETB lands. The black one seems like it has potential: it puts a creature from your yard on top of your deck. It doesn't work well with the original Eldrazi, but it might be a useful trick to recur the new Ulamog. Or Primeval, Emperion, for those of you who play them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am on the same page. The black one definitely gives the option to get back fallen brothers. I'm just not sure how great it is while it only puts the creature on top. Maybe not terrible since we run top and could have access that turn?

[Neko448]

I can partially agree with you about trickbind. But why wipe over krosan? Don't tell me that is "a repeal that works great again omnitell".....tricks with repeal and sensei/candelabra cannot be emulated by wipe, and it costs two blue mana.

Wipe Away has a lot more application. Often with this deck you just need one more turn, which is what cards like Wipe Away enable. One thing wipe away does that Krosan Grip does not is bounce a land in response to Infernal Tutor, which is a play that can realistically survive a Gitaxian Probe>Cabal Therapy from the opponent. Though, I do find the double blue offputting, since the deck is actually skewed (in my opinion) towards assembling double green.

[caw_86]

There's only two ways to counter Trickbind in Legacy: Blind flip on 2 from CB, and unmorph Voidmage Apprentice. Wipe away stops the Omni player from going off. They're both insane and underplayed, IMO, but they're not for every deck.

Except id doesnt always, usually the first thing the omni tell player does is play a second onniscience before you have prioity, really need a trigger to stop them

[TimHarding]

Except id doesnt always, usually the first thing the omni tell player does is play a second onniscience before you have prioity, really need a trigger to stop them

There are usually >15 ETB effects in the deck, so this plan is great IMO. I play both split second effects, in the board. They also splash hate very well against most of legacy too.

[Ponders]

I don't understand why you guys prefer trickbind and wipe away over needle and krosan grip.
Needle is so great against a lot of thing, is inferior to trickbind only against decks that use abrupt decay. It costs only 1, is a permanent, great against rishadan port. I can understand trickbind in a build with 2/3 needle as secondary choice or with FOW, to have blue cards to pitch.
Wipe away is in our deck only for omnitell basically: why not use krosan? 1 green is easier to have than UU; destroy omniscense is better than bounce it;against miracle is a great card (wipe is useless); in general, against mud, chalice,equipment, there are a lot of things to target. Why wipe?

I think anything that steers away from cmc 1 because of chalice, and has a cmc of no greater than 3 has to be preferred for this format hence the krosan/wipe.

[Zotmaster]

I don't understand why you guys prefer trickbind and wipe away over needle and krosan grip.
Needle is so great against a lot of thing, is inferior to trickbind only against decks that use abrupt decay. It costs only 1, is a permanent, great against rishadan port. I can understand trickbind in a build with 2/3 needle as secondary choice or with FOW, to have blue cards to pitch.
Wipe away is in our deck only for omnitell basically: why not use krosan? 1 green is easier to have than UU; destroy omniscense is better than bounce it;against miracle is a great card (wipe is useless); in general, against mud, chalice,equipment, there are a lot of things to target. Why wipe?

Pithing Needle is inferior to Trickbind in many ways; far beyond just Abrupt Decay. The most glaringly obvious one is that Trickbind is virtually impossible to counter. Like, holy shit, it is laughable that anyone would try to trivialize that fact. Sure, it's great to be able to Needle a Liliana of the Veil or a Deathrite Shaman...until it eats soft counters or Force of Will. Sometimes a single turn is enough, or against an unsuspecting planeswalker or Wasteland, the card could be gone anyway. Needle also turns on various other removal spells: Wear / Tear, Smash to Smithereens and Krosan Grip to name a few.

The other key with Trickbind is it always, always, always has something to hit. Storm? Sure, cast your spells. Grats on draining me for 2. You can stop Stoneforge Mystic from tutoring or you can stop the living weapon trigger of Batterskull. Playing against Sneak and Skill? Congratulations, you just cast Time Walk, guaranteed (though to be fair, a Sneak and Skill opponent can then learn to hold priority and activate Sneak more than once...but I've never seen this trick not work at least once). Miracles player about to put Top on top to counter something? Nope, sorry. Not happening. Craterhoof Behemoth coming to town? Yet another out aside from Crop Rotation, which means the odds of you actually having said out in your hand is that much greater. The absolute worst application of Trickbind is hitting a fetchland, in which case you still cast an uncounterable, instant-speed Stone Rain, which means congratulations, you are running Wasteland in 12-Post. True, Needle could hit a fetchland too, but any smart player will just fetch in response to you casting it. Otherwise, it can still be played around. Trickbind is an unknown asset in your hand until needed.

Why is Wipe Away in the deck? Because again, you are greatly de-valuing its versatility.

Here is a complete list of decks where Wipe Away has valid hits:

* All of them.

Bounce a land to make the Storm player who cast Infernal Tutor sad. Against Infect, bounce an Inkmoth Nexus: a card that dodges all sorts of countermeasures otherwise. Blightsteel Colossus doesn't kill you this turn. Even bouncing a stupid, flipped Delver of Secrets could be a massive tempo loss, enabling you to take the game. And if you're feeling super sneaky, you can even bounce one of your own permanents for some kind of advantage. Krosan Grip can't handle lands. Krosan Grip can't handle creatures that were cheated into play.

Wipe is useless? Hardly. Even against Miracles, you might be dealing with Monastery Mentor tokens, Angel tokens, Venser, or who knows what else. All of this buys you time. None of this is handled by Grip.

[MechTactical]

Thanks ZotMaster for some great insight. Now that we are all convinced that trickbind is the way to go and i happen to have 4 in my binder, can anyone suggest a FoW+ Trick build? is it feasible?

[Ponders]

Thanks ZotMaster for some great insight. Now that we are all convinced that trickbind is the way to go and i happen to have 4 in my binder, can anyone suggest a FoW+ Trick build? is it feasible?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24848-Deck-Turbo-Eldrazi&p=901994&viewfull=1#post901994

Check my latest attempt above. Replace stifle with trickbind. I'd recently taken out tyrant, ugin and 1 candel to replace with 3 needles (bad wasteland weekend, people practicing for gp). You could go with 2-3 wipeaways, or an extra snt, a third candel, a 4th trop. A cavern, keep the ugin. Ancient stirrings. These are all things id like to find room for.

I might try it rock's way and drop a vesuva or two.
+ 2 wipes
+1 ugin
+1 Tropical
- 1 vesuva

subtract the 5th fetch, the 3rd vesuva. Tabernacle another option, but i like the card too much.

no relic, no map, no platinum.

[deadlock]

I completely agree that 3 if not 4 Stifle effects are part of the core of this deck. I am not sure if not running the actual Stifle is stronger than Trickbind though. Trickbind has 2 major advantages over Stifle imo: Chalice, SDT (with CB in play). These are big ones, but in all other cases Stifle seems better. One major advantage of Stifle is obviously its usage on turn 1-2 (like Trop go or 2nd turn drop a Cloudpost with blue mana up). Stifling their first turn fetch or a later one (which can be done by TB too ofc) isnt the worst play in my opinion. While this isnt a tempo deck, just delaying the opponent can make the difference. Repeal, Wipe Away and also Remand fall in the same category. Concerning the latter one, I would love to use it, but it may be underpowered in Legacy due to the general low mana curve. My thinking is that it actually "counters" everything compared to Spell Pierce or Repeal. I get gladly convinced of the superiority of Trickbind, so dont get me wrong.

[Rock Lee]

Since there seems to be a grand non-comprehension about why trickbind is in the deck, and I don't foresee dropping it any time soon, the card is there for one reason and one reason only: The card allows you to play defensively or offensively regardless of if you are winning or losing.

It isn't mana denial, although rarely it can be used as such.
It isn't cute gimmicks, although rarely it can be used as such.
It isn't a cantrip, although rarely it can be used as such.
It IS an angel's grace for 1U that reads "You don't lose the game, and your opponent doesn't win," which is all this deck wants. I have never seen multiple trickbinds and thought they were completely dead.

Like all amounts of high level play in this deck, trickbind requires you to be planning out your next 3+ moves and determining what is the correct play to get safely to your 4th. Things I trickbind in this category:

Wasteland
Delver flips (especially if set up with brainstorm)
Fetchlands post-brainstorm
Wasteland
Miracle Triggers
Deathrite shaman when people are broadcasting their need for the 3rd mana or show the spell.
Glacial Chasm - Cumulative Upkeep
Glacial Chasm - Land Sacrifice
Karakas
Wasteland
Stoneforge Mystic
Equip:
Inkmoth Nexus / Mutavault / Creeping Tar Pit
Wasteland
Liliana -2 abiilty
Liliana -6 ability
Jace -12 ability
Wasteland
Craterhoof Behemoth
Chalice of the Void
Kuldotha Forgemaster
Spine of Ish Sah
Karn Liberated
Wasteland
Emrakul extra turn
Primeval Titan trigger
Candelabra of Tawnos
Expedition Map
Eye of Ugin
Wasteland
Griselbrand
Sire of Insanity
Helm of Obedience
Rishadan Port
Storm Trigger (Fluster/Tendrils/Warrens)
Wasteland
Knight of the Reliquary
Wasteland
Wasteland

[MechTactical]

Dudes,

since no one wants to post a suggestion for a trickbind / fow list I guess I have to do it. I took the FoW build from Mr. Tim (a few pages back) and jammed in those trickbinds and wipe aways. Don’t look at the sideboard I don’t know what it’s supposed to be. Let’s just discuss the possibility of playing FoW MB with trickbind, as I don’t want my $ to be wasted!! I mean come on why do you guys refuse to play FoW? Rock dude why no FoW???

Any thoughts?

Land (25)

• 1x Bojuka Bog
• 1x Cavern of Souls
• 4x Cloudpost
• 1x Eye of Ugin
• 1x Forest
• 1x Glacial Chasm
• 4x Glimmerpost
• 2x Island
• 1x Karakas
• 4x Misty Rainforest
• 4x Tropical Island
• 1x Vesuva

Instant (16)

• 4x Brainstorm
• 3x Crop Rotation
• 4x Force of Will
• 3x Trickbind
• 2x Wipe Away

Artifact (7)

• 1x Candelabra of Tawnos
• 1x Engineered Explosives
• 1x Expedition Map
• 4x Sensei's Divining Top

Creature (7)

• 1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
• 1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
• 4x Primeval Titan
• 1x Trinket Mage

Sorcery (5)

• 2x Ponder
• 3x Show and Tell

Sideboard (15)

• 1x Glen Elendra Archmage
• 3x Krosan Grip
• 1x Platinum Emperion
• 1x Pithing Needle
• 1x Relic of Progenitus
• 1x Surgical Extraction
• 3x Swan Song
• 1x Trickbind
• 2x Trinisphere
• 2x Spell Pierce

[Neko448]

If anyone else wants to watch, I found the link to the past broadcast (mislabeled as FNM for some reason):
http://www.twitch.tv/themeadery/v/15732954
My semifinals match against BUG Delver starts at around 54:00.

Oh! They are still posting these! Here (http://www.twitch.tv/themeadery/v/15281665) you can watch me stomp Miracles at 27:50 and get wrecked by Alluren at 2:08:00.


Dudes,
I mean come on why do you guys refuse to play FoW? Rock dude why no FoW???


I know personally I've played Force a lot, while the card is very good we don't exactly generate the card advantage necessary to turn it into a real threat. Having it isn't even a guarantee we can make it through a game against storm or omnitell, so it isn't super duper thrilling. There are metagames where it is an incredible snap in, but I'm not so sure right now. Making our mainboard really like in order to support a card that doesn't feel very dependable doesn't make me feel very good. In your list, maybe you want to go -1 ponder +1 DTT? I feel like Trickbind effectively does a lot of what we want out of Force of Will sans hitting a Blood Moon or Ruination on the stack. Though personally I have gone -1 Trickbind +1 Needle in the main, but that's because I seriously <3 Needle and keep losing to Alluren

[Ponders]

Oh! They are still posting these! Here (http://www.twitch.tv/themeadery/v/15281665) you can watch me stomp Miracles at 27:50 and get wrecked by Alluren at 2:08:00.



I know personally I've played Force a lot, while the card is very good we don't exactly generate the card advantage necessary to turn it into a real threat. Having it isn't even a guarantee we can make it through a game against storm or omnitell, so it isn't super duper thrilling. There are metagames where it is an incredible snap in, but I'm not so sure right now. Making our mainboard really like in order to support a card that doesn't feel very dependable doesn't make me feel very good. In your list, maybe you want to go -1 ponder +1 DTT? I feel like Trickbind effectively does a lot of what we want out of Force of Will sans hitting a Blood Moon or Ruination on the stack. Though personally I have gone -1 Trickbind +1 Needle in the main, but that's because I seriously <3 Needle and keep losing to Alluren


I could see taking the 4 force out. Try replacing with 1 snt, 1 wipeaway, and 2 tutors of some kind, either ancient stirrings or worldly tutor depending on whether you find yourself with a hand that has no creature, or no land.

[TheBoozeCube]

Maybe I'm just drunk, but is anybody else considering Scour from Existinece? I don't play Karn because paying 7 for spot removal seems inferior when you can wipe the board for the asme price. But at instant speed in monogreen? Maybe? I don't know. What is everyone else thinking?

[MechTactical]

I'm not drunk and i'm considering Phyrexian Dreadnought for a trinket / trickbind build.... any thoughts? it's probably too cute right?

[Poron]

well if trickbind is sitting in your hand for 5 turns and your opponent is in topdeck mode.. why not? it's 1 card on 75

It's an additional way to win in case of Blood Moon.. I would consider it if you're already playing Trickbind and Trinket Mage.

Probably Show and Tell is just better at that point

[MechTactical]

I know personally I've played Force a lot, while the card is very good we don't exactly generate the card advantage necessary to turn it into a real threat. Having it isn't even a guarantee we can make it through a game against storm or omnitell, so it isn't super duper thrilling. There are metagames where it is an incredible snap in, but I'm not so sure right now. Making our mainboard really like in order to support a card that doesn't feel very dependable doesn't make me feel very good. In your list, maybe you want to go -1 ponder +1 DTT? I feel like Trickbind effectively does a lot of what we want out of Force of Will sans hitting a Blood Moon or Ruination on the stack. Though personally I have gone -1 Trickbind +1 Needle in the main, but that's because I seriously <3 Needle and keep losing to Alluren

Okay Dudes, I’ll play along. So here’s my netdeck. I moved the FoW to the sideboard (I just have to include them – spent too much money to not run them in the 75, I guess I should have bought fluster, but it seemed too expensive in comparison) and basically took some ideas from Mr. Tim’s FoW list (namely trinket -> explosives plan) and copied Mr. Rock’s Trickbind build. The idea would be to change to the FoW build post-board if needed.

A few questions for u guyses:

Is this a valid sideboard plan?
Can you guys help me to pimp the sideboard - what do I need to run to compensate my weaknesses MB?
Should I run glen / venser?
Should I run more board wipes?
Any other questions I should be asking? Answer those as well :laugh:

Many thanks for your help.

Land (25)
• 1x Bojuka Bog
• 1x Cavern of Souls
• 4x Cloudpost
• 1x Eye of Ugin
• 1x Forest
• 1x Glacial Chasm
• 4x Glimmerpost
• 2x Island
• 1x Karakas
• 4x Misty Rainforest
• 4x Tropical Island
• 1x Vesuva

Artifact (10)
• 1x Candelabra of Tawnos
• 1x Engineered Explosives
• 2x Expedition Map
• 2x Relic of Progenitus
• 4x Sensei's Divining Top

Instant (13)
• 4x Brainstorm
• 3x Crop Rotation
• 4x Trickbind
• 2x Wipe Away

Sorcery (4)
• 4x Show and Tell

Creature (8)
• 1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
• 2x Platinum Emperion
• 4x Primeval Titan
• 1x Trinket Mage

Sideboard (15)
• 4x Force of Will
• 1x Glen Elendra Archmage
• 3x Krosan Grip
• 1x Surgical Extraction
• 3x Swan Song
• 2x Trinisphere
• 1x Venser, Shaper Savant

Maybeboard (8)
• Phyrexian Dreadnought
• Pithing Needle
• Spell Pierce

[Neko448]

A few questions for u

Yeah, sucks that you just got the Forces. I know the feeling as I just cut my Tabernacle. Flusterstorm has a ton of application in and outside this deck so they're a really good pick up.

I don't think Glen Elendra Archmage is very good, and Venser probably isn't either, but might still be worth playing if it interests you. No Blue Elemental blast? I like Swan Song less with no Repeals, but I guess it is better than straight losing.

Stepping away from that though, I can't ever beat a Monastery Mentor on turn 3. Engineered Explosives does work against him, but it never feels like enough. Is there other stuff I can be doing to deal with this guy? How do people feel about builds with MB Meddling Mages?

[mykatdied]

Yeah, sucks that you just got the Forces. I know the feeling as I just cut my Tabernacle. Flusterstorm has a ton of application in and outside this deck so they're a really good pick up.

I don't think Glen Elendra Archmage is very good, and Venser probably isn't either, but might still be worth playing if it interests you. No Blue Elemental blast? I like Swan Song less with no Repeals, but I guess it is better than straight losing.

Stepping away from that though, I can't ever beat a Monastery Mentor on turn 3. Engineered Explosives does work against him, but it never feels like enough. Is there other stuff I can be doing to deal with this guy? How do people feel about builds with MB Meddling Mages?

Mainboard meddling mage feels like it dilutes the deck too much. Your are probably better off with something like cyclonic rift or just using wipe away to essentially time walk them and buy another couple turns. Obviously Glacial Chasm can help, but there is always the issue that if you don't get something going after then it is all for not.

[maCHOOga]

Thanks ZotMaster for some great insight. Now that we are all convinced that trickbind is the way to go and i happen to have 4 in my binder, can anyone suggest a FoW+ Trick build? is it feasible?

When Combo was more prevalent, I was running 3x FoW maindeck. Against the fair decks, I would FoW their first threat and make them burn a FoW to keep their threat or Daze it setting them effectively back a turn. In the fair matchups, they would get immediately removed into three sideboard cards. The challenge becomes you need to play enough blue cards to support FoW. I usually shoot for 15 maindeck when including them. Right now my local metagame is largely fair decks, so I can justify not including them.

I'm actively working to tune the bant version from Eternal weekend to suite my liking. There's one thing I don't like about the bant build, the lack of shuffling cards. Right now, I basically have 5-6 fetches and 3 crop rotations because termini take up spots.

Has anyone tested Alhammeret's Archive in the archetype or is just a "win-more" card as I think it is?

[owerbart]

Is running KoTR an obsolete plan?

[Postman]

When Combo was more prevalent, I was running 3x FoW maindeck. Against the fair decks, I would FoW their first threat and make them burn a FoW to keep their threat or Daze it setting them effectively back a turn. In the fair matchups, they would get immediately removed into three sideboard cards. The challenge becomes you need to play enough blue cards to support FoW. I usually shoot for 15 maindeck when including them. Right now my local metagame is largely fair decks, so I can justify not including them.

I'm actively working to tune the bant version from Eternal weekend to suite my liking. There's one thing I don't like about the bant build, the lack of shuffling cards. Right now, I basically have 5-6 fetches and 3 crop rotations because termini take up spots.

Has anyone tested Alhammeret's Archive in the archetype or is just a "win-more" card as I think it is?
I tried it once. Con: close to Titan mana and no comes into play effect. But if it hits the board, your opponent is in great trouble^^ Brainstorm has to be countered, SDT as well and lifegain is insane. But it didn't feel like a card you need to win, because it didn't support my main goal: landing Prime Time asap. It's sweet, but felt like win-more. Most of the time, other "traditional" cards are better.

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