[Deck] 12 Post

[mykatdied]

I’m struggling to pilot the UG build as it is. UGW seems too greedy (at least for a noob like me). The UGW build also seems more vulnerable to wasteland? Is no one worried about wasteland or am I missing some angle here? With trickbind I can at least make sure a cloudpost (or another land) survives the first wasteland, with no needles, no trickbinds you’re left with just 3 crops (that can be countered…). Apparently the build relies heavily on SnT, but still…

A typical game 2 play against me is wasteland cloudpost -> surgical extraction, leaving me with the SnT plan, which is supposed to be plan B? so making sure my cloudpost stays on the field is crucial (especially game 2). In this respect I was thinking of running 1-2 needls in SB alongside 4x MB trickbinds, but it may be going overboard?

Needles are usually a staple in the main deck and I would never drop them, especially in a wasteland meta. In fact I would consider running teferi's response

[Fatal]

While this is being discussed, has anyone ever tried BUG or BG 12post? You get discard against combo and toxic deluge (+ Engineered plague SB) against aggro/midrange. It may be time to start brewing. :-)

BG Post already exist and works very well - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28391-Primer-Nic-Feat-8Post

[Rock Lee]

^ We'll have to see what the new mana symbols mean exactly. If it really does mean mana that must be colorless, then it won't be a problem for us. It does feel strange that they would add this mechanic on the new Kozilek but not the new Ulamog.

Compared to the old Kozilek, this new card's drawing power will vary in usefulness. With the old Kozilek, I sometimes already have a good number of cards in hand but then want the constant amount of four cards to dig further. Otherwise, with Kozilek being such a late-game card anyway, the new one should draw you at least four quite often.

It's that last ability on the card that makes me the most intrigued. Finally, there could be a good Eldrazi to Show and Tell in against most combo decks, giving you some defense after he enters play. I suppose our deck would mostly have one mana cost cards to pitch, but that still has a lot of use for stopping cantrips and Dark Rituals. It's also a good way to protect himself from Swords to Plowshares. All of these counters being uncounterable themselves of course.

Here's hoping this card is for real!

In all likelihood New mana symbol means "cast with wastes mana" ala snow mana. Which would make this unplayable sadly. discarding lands to counter LED's sounds amazing.

[Morden]

I’m struggling to pilot the UG build as it is. UGW seems too greedy (at least for a noob like me). The UGW build also seems more vulnerable to wasteland? Is no one worried about wasteland or am I missing some angle here? With trickbind I can at least make sure a cloudpost (or another land) survives the first wasteland, with no needles, no trickbinds you’re left with just 3 crops (that can be countered…). Apparently the build relies heavily on SnT, but still…

A typical game 2 play against me is wasteland cloudpost -> surgical extraction, leaving me with the SnT plan, which is supposed to be plan B? so making sure my cloudpost stays on the field is crucial (especially game 2). In this respect I was thinking of running 1-2 needls in SB alongside 4x MB trickbinds, but it may be going overboard?

I understand your fears, but IMHO:
1) pithing needle is a must in this deck, specially now that BUG is more present in the meta. Trickbind is not the best card against wasteland; it's great against some bad matchups like elves, storm, and everything has a horrible triggered ability. A turn1 needle is never countered, the only problem is that you reveal your deck early (not a big deal really). Once needle is on the ground, only abrupt decay is the real menace, g1 there are not so many artifact destroyers.... I think rishadan port is sometimes worst than wasteland! That card really hurts me...trickbind on port is useless. At the moment I'm running 3 needle main and 2 trickbind main, nothing on side. Usually some of their slots are replaced by sideboard cards.
2) crop rotation is another card against wasteland. NORMALLY an opponent shouldn't counter a crop against wasteland. Unless you are in mana screw, there is no reason to loose 2 cards to destroy a land....it happened a lot to me, opponents tried to destroy cloudpost at any cost and then they had no protection against S&T or other menaces. So keep your crop in hand until a wasteland hits you or EOT before you really need a particular land; or just for the shuffle effect.
3) wasteland->surgical is typical for BUG deck; against those type of deck you have a lot of answer for this situation: trickbind and surgical on wasteland in response, rest in peace, relic of progenitus (wait its surgical, tap in response, use the "exile all" ability if the opponents answers again). of course, sometimes it happens that surgical hits you deeply.....
4) S&T in my opinion is plan A. It's so easy to have titan on the floor on turn 4 with it and ramp easily throught emrakul. Of course if surgical erases all your cloudpost on game 2 S&T is less effective, but it can be good if you show a wurmcoil for example.

[Fatal]

Did Teferi's Response http://magiccards.info/in/en/78.html was taken as solution to all your fears (wastelands, ports) or even Vindicate :-)

[Morden]

Did Teferi's Response http://magiccards.info/in/en/78.html was taken as solution to all your fears (wastelands, ports) or even Vindicate :-)

Teferi is a GREAT card, but honestly it's hard for me to replace trickbind/needle with it. Trickbind is also very usefull against storm/elves/stoneforge (other than again wasteland of course). Needle is faster and, again, usefull against other things. That 2 cards drawing sounds very very attractive, but I don't know.....teferi's destroying effect is good, but useless against wasteland

[TheBoozeCube]

So I have a larger legacy tourney coming up this weekend. I'm going to try an amalgamation of my list with terminus and ehhhh's list with GSZenith. What do people think of this....
3 X primeval Titan
1 X veteran explorer
1 X Kosilek
1 X Nulamog
1 X Emrakul
4 X crop rotation
4 X sensei's top
3 X pithing needle
2 X candelabra
3 X expedition map
4 X Terminus
2 X Ugin
3 X Green Sun's Zenith
1 X dryad arbor
1 X bojuka bog
1 X Eye of Ugin
1 X tabernacle
1 X karakas
1 X thespians stage
1 X cavern of souls
1 X glacial chasm
4 X cloudpost
4 X glimmerpost
2 X vesuva
4 X windswept Heath
3 X forest
1 X plains
2 X Savannah

SB
1 X scavenging ooze
1 X Melira
1 X Gaddock Teag
1 X rec sage
2 X Canonist
2 X krosan grip
4 X leyline of sanctity
1 X surgical extraction
2 X mindbreak trap

SB is very open. Don't know if I love the traps as they are only for storm. Also not sure if Melira is worth it. It's one MU and Melira seems a little slow. I feel like I am missing low cc creature removal, but in play testing it hasn't been too much of an issue. Again, looking for any input, especially from booze or ehhhh, as you guys have a lot of history with this type of deck. Thanks.


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I actually like Melira in your build, especially on the play. Infect can technically win on T2, but they usually wait to sculpt. And it's pretty unlikely that they'll bring in Dismember before they see her.

I'm actually not a fan of the Canonists. They're live to more removal, and you can't tutor for them with GSZ. I think you'd be better off with either Sphere, Mindbreak, or Trinisphere for your Storm hate.


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[Mockingbird]

No idea if this is for real or not.

http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/kozilekthegreatdistortion.jpg

It's apparently confirmed as real.

The issue is though we don't know what <> means. That will affect the playability because Legacy is the format that this new Kozilek is the most playable because every deck that doesn't main four Chalice of the Void plays a ton of 1 mana spells, including 12-Post, so there's fodder and targets.

[TheBoozeCube]

It's apparently confirmed as real.

The issue is though we don't know what <> means. That will affect the playability because Legacy is the format that this new Kozilek is the most playable because every deck that doesn't main four Chalice of the Void plays a ton of 1 mana spells, including 12-Post, so there's fodder and targets.

I'm 90% certain that <> means "colorless only" (which is obviously much better for us). Here's why:

1) If they're introducing a new type of mana that can only be paid for with a new type of land, a small set is the least likely place to do it.

2) Maro has mentioned multiple times on his podcast that he wished there was a mana symbol for colorless mana they could use instead of numbers.

3) Wastes are basically just Barry's Land, which they've wanted to make for years.

4) It opens a HUGE area of design space. Essentially, it allows them to treat colorless as a new quasi-color while being 100% backwards compatible. It's like adding a sixth color without breaking the color wheel. Having a colorless-only symbol means that they can cost things in a way that makes people treat colorless-producing sources in the exact same way as they would treat a colored source instead of just throwing it in. You can't just auto-splash for it; you have to specifically construct a manabase to cast these. This will let them design colorless cards that they otherwise couldn't design. Example:

Kozilek's Removal Spell
1<><>
Instant
Exile target colored permanent.

This would previously be impossible as a traditional colorless card, as they can't give Red access to such efficient enchantment removal. But it's perfectly fine if colorless functionally plays like a second color, so that you can't just run Mountains.

Seriously, the design space this opens can't be overstated. It's something that could easily become deciduous, like hybrid mana.


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[MechTactical]

Thanks for all the tips!

I was reluctant to include pithing needle because I’m new to the format and would not know what to name with it. Trickbind is used reactively, which means I can hold it until I see what I’m up against. But I guess If I always name wasteland (pre-emptively) it could work? Trickbind had a target in every match up and counts towards FoW, which I’m running SB. Morden might I ask for your list? How many SnT are you running? I was running 4, but I am considering going down to 3...

BoozeMan I hope you’re 110 % right about this…

EDIT: if you are right, i just might dump some cash into this release...

[deadlock]

The new Kozilek looks amazing, because he is another card which can be put in of Show and Tell and has an immediate effect. He promotes to playing the full 4 SnT, which makes the deck stronger in general (increased chance for Titan+SnT).
I think Rock Lee's UG shell is the strongest version of the deck. Ugw seems to greedy in regard to its mana base. More importantly it is also a misconception to add specialized anti creature cards to a deck, which is supposed to be strong against fair decks in the first place. UG is supposed to handle fair matchups without a third color and struggle against nonfair decks g1. The meta argument is valid, but I think that we can fine tune the UG build for a general meta. The deck looks well build except ~6 slots we have to toy with.

@Mech: Stifle/Trickbind + Crop should be enough to handle "normal" Wasteland scenarios. Both are stronger than Needle in general, but Needle shines against a) Plainswalker b) Wasteland recursion. I consider a build with 3 Stifle / Trickbind, 3 Crop and 1 Needle + 2 Trinket Mages to fetch it. Having like 7 anti Wasteland cards looks like a good number.

[MechTactical]

The new Kozilek looks amazing, because he is another card which can be put in of Show and Tell and has an immediate effect. He promotes to playing the full 4 SnT, which makes the deck stronger in general (increased chance for Titan+SnT).
I think Rock Lee's UG shell is the strongest version of the deck. Ugw seems to greedy in regard to its mana base. More importantly it is also a misconception to add specialized anti creature cards to a deck, which is supposed to be strong against fair decks in the first place. UG is supposed to handle fair matchups without a third color and struggle against nonfair decks g1. The meta argument is valid, but I think that we can fine tune the UG build for a general meta. The deck looks well build except ~6 slots we have to toy with.

@Mech: Stifle/Trickbind + Crop should be enough to handle "normal" Wasteland scenarios. Both are stronger than Needle in general, but Needle shines against a) Plainswalker b) Wasteland recursion. I consider a build with 3 Stifle / Trickbind, 3 Crop and 1 Needle + 2 Trinket Mages to fetch it. Having like 7 anti Wasteland cards looks like a good number.

Excellent input, i agree completely.
Are you running stifles in place of trickbind? In which case you sometimes opt to stifle a fetch (on the play) instead of saving it for a wasteland?

[deadlock]

Are you running stifles in place of trickbind? In which case you sometimes opt to stifle a fetch (on the play) instead of saving it for a wasteland?
Yes. I was on the fence in the Omnitell meta, as resolving Trickbind was a matter of winning or losing as Rock Lee correctly put it, but since then I gravitate towards Stifle. Protecting our mana from turn 1 on is huge and I actually enjoy to let Stifle get FoW'd quite a bit. Another consideration is your general mana curve. Currently I am testing Remand in the flexible slot, so another cmc2 would be too much. It all depends. Same with your scenario. Just today I stifled a Fetch, which got FoW'd. I was holding a Crop Rotation against their Waste in this case. I think you have to just play more games and you will see for yourself. Besides specific scenarios it is important to understand that this deck moves towards a winning position 'automatically' as long as you develop your manabase in general, as a lot of topdecks become lethal with sufficient amounts of mana. E.g. winning of an Expedition Map against a lethal board.

[drude1]

What do people think about quarantine field? Too mana intensive? The big problem I see, even for G/w, is the double white. That card could have been so good.

For non-blue players, what about bind in the SB? It doesn't hit storm trigger, but does hit wasteland, etc. worth testing at all?

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[maCHOOga]

I’m struggling to pilot the UG build as it is. UGW seems too greedy (at least for a noob like me). The UGW build also seems more vulnerable to wasteland? Is no one worried about wasteland or am I missing some angle here? With trickbind I can at least make sure a cloudpost (or another land) survives the first wasteland, with no needles, no trickbinds you’re left with just 3 crops (that can be countered…). Apparently the build relies heavily on SnT, but still…

A typical game 2 play against me is wasteland cloudpost -> surgical extraction, leaving me with the SnT plan, which is supposed to be plan B? so making sure my cloudpost stays on the field is crucial (especially game 2). In this respect I was thinking of running 1-2 needls in SB alongside 4x MB trickbinds, but it may be going overboard?

Another good training card is Tsabo's Web. That card was designed to hose over Rishidian port, Maze, Thespian stage. (Also wastelands if your opponent taps them for mana.) I've played Teffer's response against D&T when it was a larger than normal portion of my metagame and I got people good!

[Ehhh]

So I have a larger legacy tourney coming up this weekend. I'm going to try an amalgamation of my list with terminus and ehhhh's list with GSZenith. What do people think of this....
3 X primeval Titan
1 X veteran explorer
1 X Kosilek
1 X Nulamog
1 X Emrakul
4 X crop rotation
4 X sensei's top
3 X pithing needle
2 X candelabra
3 X expedition map
4 X Terminus
2 X Ugin
3 X Green Sun's Zenith
1 X dryad arbor
1 X bojuka bog
1 X Eye of Ugin
1 X tabernacle
1 X karakas
1 X thespians stage
1 X cavern of souls
1 X glacial chasm
4 X cloudpost
4 X glimmerpost
2 X vesuva
4 X windswept Heath
3 X forest
1 X plains
2 X Savannah

SB
1 X scavenging ooze
1 X Melira
1 X Gaddock Teag
1 X rec sage
2 X Canonist
2 X krosan grip
4 X leyline of sanctity
1 X surgical extraction
2 X mindbreak trap

SB is very open. Don't know if I love the traps as they are only for storm. Also not sure if Melira is worth it. It's one MU and Melira seems a little slow. I feel like I am missing low cc creature removal, but in play testing it hasn't been too much of an issue. Again, looking for any input, especially from booze or ehhhh, as you guys have a lot of history with this type of deck. Thanks.


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I feel like Terminus is cool and cheap removal - I just haven't tested it enough in this build since you are counter productive w/ it if you play Dryad Arbor of GSZ for 1 (Vet) and the mana seems kind of weird ... Terminus just feels a little too situation for this build since you don't have Brainstorm / Jace. as for the SB I like Tax effects vs Storm I see the Cannonist which is good I might try that too :D [Melira was bad when i tested it] Chasm > Dawnstrider is how I beat infect most of the time

[Morden]

Thanks for all the tips!

I was reluctant to include pithing needle because I’m new to the format and would not know what to name with it. Trickbind is used reactively, which means I can hold it until I see what I’m up against. But I guess If I always name wasteland (pre-emptively) it could work? Trickbind had a target in every match up and counts towards FoW, which I’m running SB. Morden might I ask for your list? How many SnT are you running? I was running 4, but I am considering going down to 3...

BoozeMan I hope you’re 110 % right about this…

EDIT: if you are right, i just might dump some cash into this release...

S&T 4 mainboard, with 1 kozilek, 1 emrakul, 4 titans, 2 emperion as creatures. S&T is the easiest way to win, I really feel the difference with it (I used to play the GW version). Sometimes on g2 I remove 1 S&T, it depends on the opponent: now the omnitell is gone the meta has less fear of S&T, but this card is heavily used by reanimator, sneack&show, so generally a player has some response to it. Against white decks I remove for sure 1 S&T, containement priest is very annoying.
3 S&T is good also. It depends, if you wanna use Fow, how many creatures you have in your deck, how is your meta...

[Morden]

On the new Kozilek: nice, but I'm not 100% sure that it deserves a slot. I prefer the drawing ability of the old one and of course annihilator is top. About the "counterbalance" ability.....yeah, nice, good maybe with sensei into play, but I don't like the discarding effect. And I don't think we can have kozilek 2 on early game to control the match, unless we are very lucky and we S&T it soon. Is it worth to counter 0/1 cmc after 5th round?

[TheBoozeCube]

On the new Kozilek: nice, but I'm not 100% sure that it deserves a slot. I prefer the drawing ability of the old one and of course annihilator is top. About the "counterbalance" ability.....yeah, nice, good maybe with sensei into play, but I don't like the discarding effect. And I don't think we can have kozilek 2 on early game to control the match, unless we are very lucky and we S&T it soon. Is it worth to counter 0/1 cmc after 5th round?

If any build can use him, it's UG with S&T. And countering 0/1 stuff in the later game isn't useless.

0 CMC:
Ancestral Visions

1 CMC:
Stifle
StP
Top (for Mentor chains)
EE on 1
Any cantrip (good when they're in topdeck mode)
Crop Rotation (in Lands/Depths)

I don't know if he's worth a slot, but he probably at least merits testing if you have access to S&T.

Sadly, he's not good enough in mono-G. If we have the 10 mana to hardcast him against combo before they go off, Newlamog is usually just better. And old Koz's draw trigger is better in every other matchup, especially with Karakas.


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[mykatdied]

If any build can use him, it's UG with S&T. And countering 0/1 stuff in the later game isn't useless.

0 CMC:
Ancestral Visions

1 CMC:
Stifle
StP
Top (for Mentor chains)
EE on 1
Any cantrip (good when they're in topdeck mode)
Crop Rotation (in Lands/Depths)

I don't know if he's worth a slot, but he probably at least merits testing if you have access to S&T.

Sadly, he's not good enough in mono-G. If we have the 10 mana to hardcast him against combo before they go off, Newlamog is usually just better. And old Koz's draw trigger is better in every other matchup, especially with Karakas.


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Funny enough I actually like the new Kozilek for GW or mono G more than I like it for UG. UG already has access to things like Flusterstorm and Force for the combo match up whereas Mono G can ramp quicker and hard cast this. New Kozilek actually gives G based Turbo decks the ability to combat combo more reactively than just relying on tax and 3sphere effects.

[Morden]

^
I totally agree

[Rock Lee]

Top 8'd the charity event run by Matt Neiwola Link Here (https://www.facebook.com/events/610871149053431/614371342036745/).

I threw away both game 2 and Game 3 against splinter twin that I 2-0'd easily in the swiss. Such a terrible letdown by my sloppy play. The deck felt extremely strong.

// Lands
1 [10E] Island (3)
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
3 [A] Tropical Island
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [M15] Forest (3)
1 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Savannah
1 [ZEN] Plains (6)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
3 [SOM] Trinket Mage
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [AVR] Terminus

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [C13] Bane of Progress
SB: 3 [R] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [TSP] Trickbind


My Swiss matchups were Splinter Twin (2-0 Win), Cloudpost Staxx (2-0 Win), Elves (2-1 Win), Miracles (1-1 Unintentional draw [would've won with 1 more turn and would've called judge on slow play in a bigger event]), Infect (1-1 Intentional draw after game 2 I offered the draw for 2nd place seeding and they accepted)

[k_omega]

Funny enough I actually like the new Kozilek for GW or mono G more than I like it for UG. UG already has access to things like Flusterstorm and Force for the combo match up whereas Mono G can ramp quicker and hard cast this. New Kozilek actually gives G based Turbo decks the ability to combat combo more reactively than just relying on tax and 3sphere effects.

I agree that it does more for G/w than for UG but still don't think it's good enough. I need the combo answer to be active on or before turn 3 to reliably address storm, and for new Kozilek this requires a sequence of T1 Cloudpost, T2 Cloudpost-Candelabra, T3 Locus-Kozilek. This assumes that Candelabra and any necessary Crop Rotations are not discarded or countered. Note also that Expedition Map is too slow in this sequence. And on top of this, Kozilek's draws need to produce cards of the right CMCs in the right quantity which is not guaranteed. Gitaxian Probe allows them to see what you can counter and discard spells still work. I suppose discarding lands to counter Petals and LED could be sufficient, though this requires the opponent to not know about Kozilek via discard/probes.

In contrast, sphere effects don't require much luck or setup to be active by turn 3 (and can often be cast sooner), are guaranteed to work, and cannot be overwhelmed by a flurry of spells. Indeed, Leyline+Sphere has made the previously tough storm matchup feel easy postboard.

There's something to be said for a combo answer that protects itself against Chain of Vapor (usually), can't be Abrupt Decayed, and threatens to win on its own. It seems too hard to consistently ramp into in time, however, and even then isn't guaranteed to do enough of what you need. Also I'm wary of cutting another reshuffle effect - I like my Eldrazi to recycle themselves rather than wait to be Deathrited away.

[mykatdied]

I agree that it does more for G/w than for UG but still don't think it's good enough. I need the combo answer to be active on or before turn 3 to reliably address storm, and for new Kozilek this requires a sequence of T1 Cloudpost, T2 Cloudpost-Candelabra, T3 Locus-Kozilek. This assumes that Candelabra and any necessary Crop Rotations are not discarded or countered. Note also that Expedition Map is too slow in this sequence. And on top of this, Kozilek's draws need to produce cards of the right CMCs in the right quantity which is not guaranteed. Gitaxian Probe allows them to see what you can counter and discard spells still work. I suppose discarding lands to counter Petals and LED could be sufficient, though this requires the opponent to not know about Kozilek via discard/probes.

In contrast, sphere effects don't require much luck or setup to be active by turn 3 (and can often be cast sooner), are guaranteed to work, and cannot be overwhelmed by a flurry of spells. Indeed, Leyline+Sphere has made the previously tough storm matchup feel easy postboard.

There's something to be said for a combo answer that protects itself against Chain of Vapor (usually), can't be Abrupt Decayed, and threatens to win on its own. It seems too hard to consistently ramp into in time, however, and even then isn't guaranteed to do enough of what you need. Also I'm wary of cutting another reshuffle effect - I like my Eldrazi to recycle themselves rather than wait to be Deathrited away.

Kozilek vs storm in GW post. Personally I run
Land/0 Drops = 27 - Naturally they won't all be available due to land to cast kozilek.
1 Drops = 16
2 Drops = 4

I definitely hear you. My point was that new Kozilek was better for mono G because as of now we have sphere effects and possibly Leyline to combat them and with our mana ramp it is easier for us to hard cast over the UG version, basically it gives us something to do in between casting Kozilek and killing them whereas UG has flusterstorm and force to combat them already so running old kozilek is probably just better for the fact that they can clear the board of land, making it harder for storm to combo while force and flusterstorm hold the fort before Kozilek comes down.

[Rock Lee]

Regarding New Kozilek. It will obviously be an auto-in. I have always wanted a fattie that was colorless but able to be showed in against combo and castable against tempo. Essentially requires an on-cast ability and a strong anti-combo static ability. Even if the unknown mana symbols end up requiring wastes to tap, I will just run one and fix my way into casting.

U/G offers excellent 0,1, 3's to discard as well, all the cmcs you care about hitting against all combo.

[Pdingo]

Hei Guys

Yesterday was the unofficial Swiss Legacy Championship. 72 Player!!! Very cool for Switzerland:) (7 Rounds)
I played of Course 12 Post Mono Green because we have less Combo Decks like Storm there. A lot Midrange and Delver Decks;)
So i started with a bye because the Last time i top 8 in the qualifier with Storm.;)

Played the Same List like last time, with just a little Change in the SB. I take out the MB Traps for 2 Dismember.

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Crop Rotation
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Expedition Map
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Vesuva
1 Karakas
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Pithing Needle
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 All Is Dust
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Maze of Ith
6 Forest
4 Ancient Stirrings
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
2 Exploration

SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Obstinate Baloth
SB: 1 Oblivion Stone
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Dismember

Round 1: Bye

Round 2: U/G Infect 2:0

G1:He going of T3 for the Kill i had 2 lands on the field sac both for crop into chasm then i drawed into the Posts and i won :)
G2: Basically the Same but it takes a little bit more time. He played very bad and forget to pay tabernacle;) that's why i love this card.
Then i ramp me into Kozilek and a bunch of cards and i won after that.

Round 3:Shardless Agent 2:1
G1: he really won G1 with 2 Tarmogoyfs and a nice Hymn with flow backup.
G2: All is Dust wins. Played around he's Lili with basiloth
G3: Basiloth is the Damn Card against this Deck. I played around everything then at 1 Point i had just a basiloth on the field but drawer into eye with 8 mana open into Kozilek;)

Round 4: Burg Delver 0:2
G1: I missplayed sadly with Map into Dephts but he had a too fast clock to win.. Should take Cloudpost and make 10 mana for a Ugin next Turn..Really really bad:(
G2: I had a Forest in hand with 2 Stirrings and top so i kp it. I just finding a other Post the whole Game and in the late Game just a Forest. So he beaten me really bad..
Don't be too greedy in this Match up!!!

Round 5: Foodchain Griffin 2:0
G1: First i was thinking he's on Shardless BUG..But he just played some Creatures and a griffin and well i won with Emrakul haha
G2: Basically the same

So at this Point my Standings was now 4:1 and i have just to win 1 More match for top 8 (7 Rounds)
But now the Struggle get started. I was the only 12 Post Player there and i played against the only UR Delver Player there with Price of Progress 4off+ Wasteland... Good Choice for him of course.
He played not that well but yeah i think Counter+a Fast Clock and Wasteland are a harder Match up for us. More than any Other Delver Deck i think.

Round 6: UR Delver 1:2..

G1: He does nothing for two Turn and i ramp me higher and next turn i could play ulamog but then he surprised me with a Wasteland and played delver then he good me in 3 Turns lol
G2: It was really Close too playground he's Price but a fast emrakul wins there. Candelabras are very important in a Match up like this;)
G3: Really Close but at some Point i had 4 Non Basic+Eye in Play and exploration out and Ulamog and Chasm in hand.. He had 1 Wasteland out 1 Volcanic and 1 island with a delver. So i misplayed here i think.
I played vesuva and should get some mana in pool for Chasm then play ulamog. I know he had a Daze in hand. I can just make 8 mana... So i forget to play chasm and played ulamog he just rsp to him with a price..so i lost...
The play with chasm would here be correct, after that i can exile him delver and the red land...Then he can Waste me or top deck a source for price so it was a little bit random.. Don't know if i can win here.. After rethinking i would probably win it..:) Lesson for life.

Round 7: Tin Fins... I think it's a better Match up than UR Delver 2:0
G1: Well G1 is hard to win but if we had a crop and forest or a needle we win. Here i played to fast. I played t1 exploration into land into needle and naming waste witch is wrong. Normally here it isn't important for naming waste. I should wait a turn. So then he discard himself a griselbrand and i don't find any Crop rotation or the 1off bog haha
G2: Mull to 6 with a 2 cloudpost and a needle. So i kp it and played a land. He goes off T1 haha

So i lost again because of some little but important mistakes.
4-1 to 4-3 is really bad but happens:P We can not always win;)
I will test the list more and better for the Nebraska War 3.0.
Ask me for question thanks:)

Greets dingo

[k_omega]

Kozilek vs storm in GW post. Personally I run
Land/0 Drops = 27 - Naturally they won't all be available due to land to cast kozilek.
1 Drops = 16
2 Drops = 4


I did some calculations and with this CMC distribution a T3 cast Kozilek gives you the following expected quantities of cards in hand for each CMC:
0: 3.05
1: 1.91
2: 0.51

So it's safe to say that LEDs will not resolve, and you can often (but not always) counter two one-drops. Infernal Tutors will probably still resolve. These numbers assume the natural 2x-Cloudpost+locus+Candelabra sequence I mentioned earlier, but if Crop Rotations and/or fetches are involved they all change by less than 0.2. Coincidentally, these 0- and 1-drop numbers are the same as in Rock Lee's most recent U/G list (assuming no Surgicals postboard - I'm actually curious whether these come in against storm or not). Rock has 7 3-drops which gives an expected 0.89 of them in hand post-Kozilek. Since Kozilek always draws you to seven cards these numbers are independent of play/draw or mulligans.

The picture worsens if Show and Tell is the plan. With M mulligans and D draw steps (i.e., 2 on the play and 3 on the draw since S&T is possible on turn 3 at the earliest) you have 7-M+D cards of which 3 must be lands, one S&T, and one Kozilek. So you have 2-M+D cards in hand after S&T if you do absolutely nothing on the first two turns and are not hit with discard. Under those conditions and assuming no mulligans, you have 4 or 5 cards in hand on the play and draw respectively. The expected numbers in this case are:

cc | Play | Draw
0: 1.75, 2.18 (Three lands are already used)
1: 1.16, 1.45 (Candelabra isn't required so there are more 1-drops to discard)
3: 0.44, 0.55 (one S&T is already used to put Kozilek in play so only 6 3-drops are available, assuming Trinket Mages stay in)

Of course brainstorm allows you to improve the situation somewhat; mulligans, discard, and casting spells on turns 0-2 all worsen it.

[Skriger]

Top 8'd the charity event run by Matt Neiwola Link Here (https://www.facebook.com/events/610871149053431/614371342036745/).

I threw away both game 2 and Game 3 against splinter twin that I 2-0'd easily in the swiss. Such a terrible letdown by my sloppy play. The deck felt extremely strong.

// Lands
1 [10E] Island (3)
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
3 [A] Tropical Island
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [M15] Forest (3)
1 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Savannah
1 [ZEN] Plains (6)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
3 [SOM] Trinket Mage
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [AVR] Terminus

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [C13] Bane of Progress
SB: 3 [R] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [TSP] Trickbind



First off, Kudos to you for expanding on this deck. I have always felt it had great potential. Your builds always change much pretty dramatically, like this one. It almost feels like you expand and cover what meta your going into. Any way to elaborate on your builds and how you come to terms with specific cards? 4 Surgical extractions and 4 terminus is definitely not an interesting route.

Also I have been running Relic of Progenitus since I saw you had a build for it and man it's been working nicely. Meta around my parts is full of Goyfs and Aggro Loam is picking up since omnitell was shut down a bit.

[Rock Lee]

First off, Kudos to you for expanding on this deck. I have always felt it had great potential. Your builds always change much pretty dramatically, like this one. It almost feels like you expand and cover what meta your going into. Any way to elaborate on your builds and how you come to terms with specific cards? 4 Surgical extractions and 4 terminus is definitely not an interesting route.

Also I have been running Relic of Progenitus since I saw you had a build for it and man it's been working nicely. Meta around my parts is full of Goyfs and Aggro Loam is picking up since omnitell was shut down a bit.

I never thought I would say it, but I miss the Dig through Time meta, where the only combo deck was Omni. We could dedicate 7 maindeck cards to omni specifically and over 3/4 of our sb. Now there is Storm, Infect, Sneaky Show, along with limping Omni and others. We can no longer afford to be greedy with our hate.

Blanket sweepers and turn 1 plays are integral, Hence Terminus and Surgical opening up sideboard and maindeck options.

[MechTactical]

I don’t know if I should waste space on this forum by posting this, but fuck it – live and learn. I played horribly this Sunday. Made two HUGE (and obvious) mistakes that cost me 2 matches, not to mention other mistakes (confused plays). Despite of this the deck felt like it (in the right hands) could defeat all the match-ups I got. This deck is great, but does require experience… hopefully next time I can manage to not make obvious mistakes that cost me top 8 this time.

Example: I tapped out in my main to activate eye (don’t know why I did that…) letting the lands player to make a marit lage token in my end step, killing me with 2 repeals in my hand – funny right? I would have won game 2 easily, but you know – slow play… lands Jesus that’s one slow deck, simply boring (couldn't even finish game 2 and i was playing reasonably fast, if not fast). Don't know why anyone would play it...

[Darkenslight]

I don’t know if I should waste space on this forum by posting this, but fuck it – live and learn. I played horribly this Sunday. Made two HUGE (and obvious) mistakes that cost me 2 matches, not to mention other mistakes (confused plays). Despite of this the deck felt like it (in the right hands) could defeat all the match-ups I got. This deck is great, but does require experience… hopefully next time I can manage to not make obvious mistakes that cost me top 8 this time.

Example: I tapped out in my main to activate eye (don’t know why I did that…) letting the lands player to make a marit lage token in my end step, killing me with 2 repeals in my hand – funny right? I would have won game 2 easily, but you know – slow play… lands Jesus that’s one slow deck, simply boring (couldn't even finish game 2 and i was playing reasonably fast, if not fast). Don't know why anyone would play it...

Lands, in the hands of an experienced player, should be able to kill you fast once it's locked you down.

Also, whilst it's good to know that you learned from your play error, if you suspect slow play, call a judge.

[MechTactical]

Lands, in the hands of an experienced player, should be able to kill you fast once it's locked you down.

Also, whilst it's good to know that you learned from your play error, if you suspect slow play, call a judge.

I’m not experienced enough to determine slow play, but it probably was in this case. Although I wouldn’t have called a judge in any case, because this tournament isn’t all that serious, people are playing with proxies and the environment isn’t all that competitive (at least from my perspective), as a beginer I prefer this kind of environment anyway...
Funny thing about that match up was that I really missed a second needle. While I managed to play my lonely needle both games on wasteland, the lands player then just proceeded to “waste” me with ghost quarter. Despite of the recurring land destruction I managed to come over the top (or better to say would have) eventually. Next time I just have to win game 1, then he will slow play himself to death. In any case this meta seems ripe for MB relic, although I don’t know what to cut…

[mykatdied]

I’m not experienced enough to determine slow play, but it probably was in this case. Although I wouldn’t have called a judge in any case, because this tournament isn’t all that serious, people are playing with proxies and the environment isn’t all that competitive (at least from my perspective), as a beginer I prefer this kind of environment anyway...
Funny thing about that match up was that I really missed a second needle. While I managed to play my lonely needle both games on wasteland, the lands player then just proceeded to “waste” me with ghost quarter. Despite of the recurring land destruction I managed to come over the top (or better to say would have) eventually. Next time I just have to win game 1, then he will slow play himself to death. In any case this meta seems ripe for MB relic, although I don’t know what to cut…

If you are not sure if slow play is occurring you can call a judge and ask them to watch if able to decide if slow play is actually a factor. You can also ask your opponent politely to speed up play

[Rock Lee]

Went 3-1 this weekly magic with this bant list:

// Lands
1 [10E] Island (3)
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
3 [A] Tropical Island
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [M15] Forest (3)
2 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Savannah
1 [ZEN] Plains (6)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
3 [SOM] Trinket Mage
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [AVR] Terminus
1 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [R] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 [MMA] Knight of the Reliquary
SB: 2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

Matchups were American Delver, 4C Delver (loss), Death and Taxes, Goblins.

Loss was to some insane hands on 4C Delver's part. x2 waste, x2 fow, x2 daze, x2 pyromancer in x2 games. Didn't sight Stp in game 2, but I feel that it was necessary to win this match.

[somethingdotdotdot]

@Rock, how are you boarding vs the combo matchups with that sideboard? It seems like you're just giving up the storm matchup in favor of having a better matchup vs infect, elves, and sneak. Is a counter package just not good enough for the sideboard with the lowered maindeck blue count?

[Rock Lee]

@Rock, how are you boarding vs the combo matchups with that sideboard? It seems like you're just giving up the storm matchup in favor of having a better matchup vs infect, elves, and sneak. Is a counter package just not good enough for the sideboard with the lowered maindeck blue count?

Not giving up so much as changing it. Going with Surgicals, Revokers, STP (for the bee or lifegain) over the traditional options.

ALl that being said, I'm strongly considering Trickbind for this open. My losses post-bant acceptance have all been avoidable with trickbind, which I have held back on, and trickbind further protects a greedier manabase.

Unsure on Trickbind or Repeal, and I think Trickbind is the safer bet with terminus/stp covering what repeal was mostly aimed at. Additionally, Trickbind would cover the storm matchup as well.

[Deathrite_Shaman]

Not giving up so much as changing it. Going with Surgicals, Revokers, STP (for the bee or lifegain) over the traditional options.

ALl that being said, I'm strongly considering Trickbind for this open. My losses post-bant acceptance have all been avoidable with trickbind, which I have held back on, and trickbind further protects a greedier manabase.

Unsure on Trickbind or Repeal, and I think Trickbind is the safer bet with terminus/stp covering what repeal was mostly aimed at. Additionally, Trickbind would cover the storm matchup as well.


Trickbind vs Stifle? How bad has the extra mana been in the early game? I imagine being able to go T2 cloudpost and protect it comes up fairly often.

Additionally, Trinket Mage. Since you're now going "all-in" on the Trinket Mage plan, is a 1-of EE and/or Pithing Needle not worth the spots in the 75? They're both really good in certain spots and having 4 virtual copiies of them seems really good.

[Darkenslight]

Trickbind vs Stifle? How bad has the extra mana been in the early game? I imagine being able to go T2 cloudpost and protect it comes up fairly often.

Additionally, Trinket Mage. Since you're now going "all-in" on the Trinket Mage plan, is a 1-of EE and/or Pithing Needle not worth the spots in the 75? They're both really good in certain spots and having 4 virtual copiies of them seems really good.

Trickbind can't be countered, except by blind CB on 2 and spells that see no play in Legacy. Yes, 1v2 mana is sometimes relevant, but having the capacity to just blank Tendrils or Empty. In addition, it also blanks Miracle triggers, planeswalker activations, Top and DRS.

[maCHOOga]

For all those going to the legacy open tomorrow good luck! 😀

[Voiceofthedead]

Hi,

Long time reader here. I played UG 12 Post in our LGS yesterday evening (just a small 16ppl event unfortunately). Ended up 3-1 after 4 rounds of swiss.

Here is the list I played and a small report on how everything worked out:

Lands (26):

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Forest
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Vesuva
1 Glacial Chasm

Creatures (7):

4 Primeval Titan
1 Trinket Mage
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells (27):

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Crop Rotation
3 Show and Tell
3 Expedition Map
3 Trickbind
2 Pithing Needle
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Repeal
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sideboard (15):

1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Trinisphere
3 Krosan Grip
3 Flusterstorm
2 Blue Elemental Blast


Round 1 (against Punishing Blue) 0-2

G1:

He wins the roll and opens with Land, Mox Diamond, Dark Confidant. Not too great for me as it will be unanswered for a couple of turns and draw him a lot of cards. I get to resolve a Divining Top and start digging and ramping with an Expedition Map. He lands a Chalice@1 which hurts me REALLY bad as my hand consists of a lot of 1drops, but i can probably handle it with my Repeal and get things going. Unfortunately he also drops a Gaddock Teeg which blanks my Repeal and i am stuck on Lands, uncastable spells and a Top. On top of that (hahaha.. bad joke inc), my Top only reveals me more Lands and Brainstorms, Needles, and so on. Even fetching twice does not help and I am beaten to death by Gaddock and the Confidant.
G2:
I have to Mull to 5 and keep an okay hand which has 3 Lands, a Brainstorm and a Show and Tell. He opens up again with T1 Confidant into Wasteland, Wasteland, Wasteland + DRS + Lili. He denies me my third mana for Show and Tell and as my draws were Emrakul, Eye of Ugin, Ulamog and a Pithing Needle (which gets Abrupt Decay'ed within an eyeblink), I am forced to tap out after he resolves Life from the Loam and Slaughter Games for my Titans </3.
Summary:
As I am not too experienced with the deck, I am unsure if I am making the correct plays all the time. Thats why I am writing up the reports for some nice discussions about the key cards in the MUs etc. I guess in this case I just had some bad luck / draws and ended up losing. I don't think that this matchup should be unwinnable, although it felt like it :P


Round 2 (against Reanimator) 2-0

G1:
My opponent reanimates Griseldaddy in his 3rd turn and draws 7 cards. I draw a Pithing Needle and at least stop him from drawing cards like a sir. 2 Back to Back Glimmerposts + a Primeval Titan off a Cavern keep me alive while I am slowly but surely getting to huge amounts of mana while removing his GY (containing Iona and another Griseldaddy) with Bojuka Bog off my Titan. Shortly after that, Griseldaddy finds a nice friend in a Tidespout Tyrant, but he does not have any castable spells left to bounce my board. I am going all in and attack with my Titan to get Glacial Chasm. Indeed this buys me another turn as he does not find a castable spell and I am able to resolve Ulamog for both Griselbrand and the Tyrant and close out the game. This pretty much made up for all the bad luck I had in Round 1 I guess :D

G2:
I got Karakas, Relic and a Flusterstorm in hand and feel quite confortable. My Relic gets FoW'ed thoug and as I found a Surgical Extraction I am not too unhappy with this. Afterwards my opponent seems to have no action going. Fine for me as I hit my landdrops (no Cloudposts, though). Finally he finds an Entomb for Sire of Insanity and wants to Exhume. I Crop Rotate as a response which gets FoW'ed. My Flusterstorm is enough to stop FoW and the Exhume and i get Bojuka Bog to remove Sire (my opp seemed light on discard/entomb effects). I then resolve Primeval Titan (off a Karakas, Cavern, Bojuka Bog, Glimmerpost, Tropical Island, Island O.o.. weirdest 6 mana for Titan ever..) I get up to critical amounts of mana and close out the game.
Summary:
I think I got really really lucky in G1. After boarding we should be able to win against Reanimator.


Round 3 (against Storm) 2-1

G1:
Long story short, I end up Brainstorming twice, spinning my Top and Fetching twice but there is nothing which would stop him going off... He does and we move on to sideboarding.
G2:
We play the Draw-Go game. He is cantripping and I am spinning my Top (floating a Trickbind) and hitting landdrops. He then decides to combo off, discards my Flusterstorm but gets blown out by activating Top and Trickbind his Storm trigger. I assume he was quite new on storm/did not know about Trickbind being in my deck as he was rather surprised. He did not have enough mana to flashback Tendrils in the same turn and Primeval Titan (getting Bojuka Bog) seals the deal.
G3:
I get an opening 7 with Surgical Extraction, Trickbind, Flusterstorm and a Trinisphere.. Turn 4, I land the 3Sphere because i kept up mana all the time for my disruption spells. I even had U available after the 3Sphere just in case he could handle it and go off. But he did not and SnT -> Titan -> ramp wins me this Match. Again all i saw was a bunch of Ponders and Brainstorms.
Summary:
As long as he does not storm too fast, we should be able to compete here. Our disruption package seems well suited against storm. Especially with Trickbind... I really love this card :D


Round 4 (against Jund) 2-0

G1:
I win the roll and he starts with a DRS into Confidant which gets hit by Repeal. His Bloodbraid hits my Titan right before the turn I would be able to cast it. Thankfully, good guy Divining Top shows me another one and I get to resolve it, ramp up and .. thats pretty much it. He is not able to recover and I throw big dudes at him.
G2:
Again T1 DRS but this time he resolves Hymn to Tourach T2. Hits perfect (Cloudpost + Titan) and casts Surgical Extracion targeting my Cloudpost. I am pretty sure that this is a HUGE misplay as I think he should have removed the Titans. His 2 Wastelands get answered by Trickbind and Crop Rotation respectively and I resolve Show and Tell for another Titan which ramps me up to Ugin... Ugin > fair matchups as he sweeps his whole board (except for the lands). He never recovers and concedes the match.
Summary:
Titan is HUGE against fair decks I think. Maybe I am wrong but I remember some guys stating that you should board them out after G1. Why? If you land it, the game is pretty much over..




I am hoping for advice/ discussions! =)

Sorry for possible mistakes in my grammar/english as I am not a native speaker (I'm from Germany). Best of luck to all the guys playing 12Post today!


Greets
Marcel

[Morden]

nice list, probably I would play the same if I didn't use white...
one note: you cannot use repeal on chalice@1, its cmc is 0, so repeal would have cmc 1 :tongue:

[Voiceofthedead]

You're true ofc with the Repeal... Well it was blanked anyway so I didnt get to make that misplay :D

I am unsure if I will add White soon or FoW in the SB. I was also thinking about some Disfigures, as an unanswered Confidant or DRS can do some work against us..

[Zotmaster]

nice list, probably I would play the same if I didn't use white...
one note: you cannot use repeal on chalice@1, its cmc is 0, so repeal would have cmc 1 :tongue:

He had Trickbind in his list: one of that card's many, many uses. In a pinch, he still could have used Repeal until Gaddock Teeg came down.

[deadlock]

Thx for the report Voiceofthedead! I like your list. mine is very close. Some comments to your report.



Round 1 (against Punishing Blue) 0-2

G1:

He wins the roll and opens with Land, Mox Diamond, Dark Confidant. Not too great for me as it will be unanswered for a couple of turns and draw him a lot of cards. I get to resolve a Divining Top and start digging and ramping with an Expedition Map. He lands a Chalice@1 which hurts me REALLY bad as my hand consists of a lot of 1drops, but i can probably handle it with my Repeal and get things going. Unfortunately he also drops a Gaddock Teeg which blanks my Repeal and i am stuck on Lands, uncastable spells and a Top. On top of that (hahaha.. bad joke inc), my Top only reveals me more Lands and Brainstorms, Needles, and so on. Even fetching twice does not help and I am beaten to death by Gaddock and the Confidant.

Gaddock shuts down both Repeal and EE, but otherwise an maindeck EE could have helped. What do you think about it and additionally a second Trinket Mage? I like the second TM over cards like the second Needle and the second Candelabra, because they are a bit situational. What's maybe even more important, is the additional virtual copy of SDT, which is pivotal to have.



G2:
I have to Mull to 5 and keep an okay hand which has 3 Lands, a Brainstorm and a Show and Tell. He opens up again with T1 Confidant into Wasteland, Wasteland, Wasteland + DRS + Lili. He denies me my third mana for Show and Tell and as my draws were Emrakul, Eye of Ugin, Ulamog and a Pithing Needle (which gets Abrupt Decay'ed within an eyeblink), I am forced to tap out after he resolves Life from the Loam and Slaughter Games for my Titans </3.

Very unlucky. Your list is at the top end of Wasteland protection, so pretty unlucky as said.


Concerning the SB Trinisphere. Would you consider Sphere of Resistance instead? I like it, because it is cheaper and we dont need Trini against Omnitell anymore. What I like about the Spheres in general, is that they are colorless and can be cast of Locus lands.

[Ponders]

I mentioned this before, but it still seems to me that Post lacks a strong T1, T2 opening.
Consider
T1 wasteland-vial, T2 Thalia
T1 Mox-Scrubland-GSZ->Shaman. T2 Knight Reliq.
T1 Shaman T2 Lilly
T1 Bloodmoon
T2 Exhume
T2 counterbalance

In most cases I think we hope multiple posts make up for this in turns 3-4 while dodging wastelands and other nonsense. The Tim Harding deck featuring woodland lot may have tried to get a stronger opening.

Most of our t1/t2 are crouched in the defensive position with a needle or trickbind in hand. Is there another way out of this? Something more forward and aggressive that plays to a titan or something worse on T1, T2? L

[Zotmaster]

I mentioned this before, but it still seems to me that Post lacks a strong T1, T2 opening.
Consider
T1 wasteland-vial, T2 Thalia
T1 Mox-Scrubland-GSZ->Shaman. T2 Knight Reliq.
T1 Shaman T2 Lilly
T1 Bloodmoon
T2 Exhume
T2 counterbalance

In most cases I think we hope multiple posts make up for this in turns 3-4 while dodging wastelands and other nonsense. The Tim Harding deck featuring woodland lot may have tried to get a stronger opening.

Most of our t1/t2 are crouched in the defensive position with a needle or trickbind in hand. Is there another way out of this? Something more forward and aggressive that plays to a titan or something worse on T1, T2? L

Honestly, the way to have more aggressive Turn 1 or Turn 2 plays is simply to play a different deck. This deck trades those early turns for inevitability: if you take enough turns, you will win. The question is how many turns that is. There really is no better answer: Tim's list that you mentioned is about as aggressive as it gets without running Exploration or Mox Diamond.

The other thing you have to remember is that you have to make adjustments. If where you play features a lot of really fast decks like you mentioned, your list needs to reflect that. You need to adjust based on the play or draw: leading Cloudpost on the draw against an unknown opponent is almost always a terrible idea. That first list, for example, is a D&T deck. Okay, what do you need to do? Fetch a basic or two if you don't have Crop Rotation backup and go for Show and Tell. You know it will resolve, so get your dude in play (likely Primeval Titan). Even if your Titan eats Swords to Plowshares, you have a huge advantage that has just blasted through D&T's disruption. Is Maverick a thing in your area? Pithing Needle can help. Trickbind can buy you time. Engineered Explosives wipes their board. Turn 1 Blood Moon is annoying, but that means you're almost certainly playing some kind of Stompy variant. You can get rid of that card for as little as one mana, although in fairness that's harder to do if you're on the draw. Reanimator is what it is: there is more than enough Turn 0, Turn 1, and Turn 2 graveyard hate that's been printed: run some of it. Got Elves players? Pithing Needle can stop Wirewood Symbiote or Quirion Ranger. Phyrexian Revoker can stop Heritage Druid and Birchlore Rangers. Cursed Totem bricks all of their guys until they get Reclamation Sage. Grafdigger's Cage stops Green Sun's Zenith and Natural Order, and it also works against Dredge and Reanimator. Finally, Trickbind stops Craterhoof Behemoth from killing you, as does Crop Rotation into Glacial Chasm. Counterbalance is annoying, but if you can resolve a Turn 1 Sensei's Divining Top or Expedition Map, or otherwise get these cards down before your opponent plays a Top of their own, it is very difficult for you to lose out of that spot.

Legacy is one of the most diverse formats out there. You can't cover everything, so you have to cover what you expect to play against. Your own personal play style matters, too. And sometimes your opponent nut draws or you just draw blanks and you lose. I lost a game against Miracles after taking 45 points of damage from a single Vendilion Clique. Sometimes it happens.

-----

In other news, I've been tinkering a little bit with Rock Lee's white splash. The last list he posted has 62 cards and I'm allergic to anything over 60 cards that isn't EDH, so I pared it down to 60. Trinket Mage felt a little clunky to me: like, I felt I could do better in that slot since I wasn't running Engineered Explosives, Grafdigger's Cage or Chalice of the Void. I put in my favorite pet card, Trickbind instead and it felt good, as it almost always does. The white splash has a greedier mana base than we're used to and I feel like Trickbind needs to be in there to help protect it, in addition to the 1001 other uses it has. Trinket Mage may still be "right", but I think it needs a more diverse selection of artifacts in that case. Terminus and StP feel really good, though, and they're fantastic against Young Pyromancer and Monastery Mentor garbage: I ran 3 in the board instead of 2, and those two white cards won me several games.

[Ponders]

Honestly, the way to have more aggressive Turn 1 or Turn 2 plays is simply to play a different deck. This deck trades those early turns for inevitability: if you take enough turns, you will win. The question is how many turns that is. There really is no better answer: Tim's list that you mentioned is about as aggressive as it gets without running Exploration or Mox Diamond.

The other thing you have to remember is that you have to make adjustments. If where you play features a lot of really fast decks like you mentioned, your list needs to reflect that. You need to adjust based on the play or draw: leading Cloudpost on the draw against an unknown opponent is almost always a terrible idea. That first list, for example, is a D&T deck. Okay, what do you need to do? Fetch a basic or two if you don't have Crop Rotation backup and go for Show and Tell. You know it will resolve, so get your dude in play (likely Primeval Titan). Even if your Titan eats Swords to Plowshares, you have a huge advantage that has just blasted through D&T's disruption. Is Maverick a thing in your area? Pithing Needle can help. Trickbind can buy you time. Engineered Explosives wipes their board. Turn 1 Blood Moon is annoying, but that means you're almost certainly playing some kind of Stompy variant. You can get rid of that card for as little as one mana, although in fairness that's harder to do if you're on the draw. Reanimator is what it is: there is more than enough Turn 0, Turn 1, and Turn 2 graveyard hate that's been printed: run some of it. Got Elves players? Pithing Needle can stop Wirewood Symbiote or Quirion Ranger. Phyrexian Revoker can stop Heritage Druid and Birchlore Rangers. Cursed Totem bricks all of their guys until they get Reclamation Sage. Grafdigger's Cage stops Green Sun's Zenith and Natural Order, and it also works against Dredge and Reanimator. Finally, Trickbind stops Craterhoof Behemoth from killing you, as does Crop Rotation into Glacial Chasm. Counterbalance is annoying, but if you can resolve a Turn 1 Sensei's Divining Top or Expedition Map, or otherwise get these cards down before your opponent plays a Top of their own, it is very difficult for you to lose out of that spot.

Legacy is one of the most diverse formats out there. You can't cover everything, so you have to cover what you expect to play against. Your own personal play style matters, too. And sometimes your opponent nut draws or you just draw blanks and you lose. I lost a game against Miracles after taking 45 points of damage from a single Vendilion Clique. Sometimes it happens.

-----

In other news, I've been tinkering a little bit with Rock Lee's white splash. The last list he posted has 62 cards and I'm allergic to anything over 60 cards that isn't EDH, so I pared it down to 60. Trinket Mage felt a little clunky to me: like, I felt I could do better in that slot since I wasn't running Engineered Explosives, Grafdigger's Cage or Chalice of the Void. I put in my favorite pet card, Trickbind instead and it felt good, as it almost always does. The white splash has a greedier mana base than we're used to and I feel like Trickbind needs to be in there to help protect it, in addition to the 1001 other uses it has. Trinket Mage may still be "right", but I think it needs a more diverse selection of artifacts in that case. Terminus and StP feel really good, though, and they're fantastic against Young Pyromancer and Monastery Mentor garbage: I ran 3 in the board instead of 2, and those two white cards won me several games.

I've been experimenting with lotus petal, and very rarely its been a dead card (exception, late game). Its wasteland resistant, any color you need and ramp for zero mana. Its a low priority counterspell target. Just playing around with it atm, took out the candels which is never my first choice because it seems to me that candels win games. That said, win or win more, im not sure. I added a 4th snt, and 2 ancient tombs just because I'm already skewing blue and aiming to improve the early game.

While I get your point about meta-gaming, I just don't see the results born out statistically for top 8's.

[Rock Lee]

This week I sold out on mono green and went with a modified list of the MTG daily winner Eli12 (http://www.mtgtop8.com/search?player=eli12).

// Lands
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
3 [M15] Forest (3)
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
1 [CS] Dark Depths
2 [R] Savannah
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [WL] Veteran Explorer
2 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya
2 [BNG] Courser of Kruphix
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [M14] Scavenging Ooze

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 [M10] Pithing Needle
1 [ROE] All Is Dust
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [M15] Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [R] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 [LG] Sylvan Library
SB: 1 [C14] Containment Priest

My matchups were Reliquary Retreat, Mono Blue control, Storm. All three matches went to game 3 with me closely losing game 1, and white and/or K Grip dominating games 2/3.

I was quite surprised at how effective Surgical and Crop Rotation were at holding off storm to avoid turn 1-2 kills, and then relying on the bears to hold down the fort.

Sylvan Library was insane in all of my wins, and showed up far more often than its 1-of merited. Likely deserving another slot, possibly in the main.

[MGB]

Rock, how did the new Bant list work out for you in the Open?

Can we get a rundown of the matchups and results, and an explanation of how well some of the experimental cards worked out for you? I'm particularly curious about Knight of the Reliquary and if it was worth running or not.

[winglerw28]

This week I sold out on mono green and went with a modified list of the MTG daily winner Eli12 (http://www.mtgtop8.com/search?player=eli12).

// Lands
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
3 [M15] Forest (3)
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
1 [CS] Dark Depths
2 [R] Savannah
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [WL] Veteran Explorer
2 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya
2 [BNG] Courser of Kruphix
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [M14] Scavenging Ooze

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 [M10] Pithing Needle
1 [ROE] All Is Dust
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [M15] Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [R] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 [LG] Sylvan Library
SB: 1 [C14] Containment Priest

My matchups were Reliquary Retreat, Mono Blue control, Storm. All three matches went to game 3 with me closely losing game 1, and white and/or K Grip dominating games 2/3.

I was quite surprised at how effective Surgical and Crop Rotation were at holding off storm to avoid turn 1-2 kills, and then relying on the bears to hold down the fort.

Sylvan Library was insane in all of my wins, and showed up far more often than its 1-of merited. Likely deserving another slot, possibly in the main.

No Candelabra? :eyebrow:

[maCHOOga]

Sylvan Library was insane in all of my wins, and showed up far more often than its 1-of merited. Likely deserving another slot, possibly in the main.

When I was on the Aggro Loam kick, Sylvan Library, was one of the best cards in the deck. It is also likely to draw a force..1G discard two cards is fine. :-) It also don't get shut off by nullrod.

Whenever I get to play legacy again, I'm planning to head back to WG as well. All I know is UG will trump WG in the mirror match. Been there, got dominated.

[Skriger]

Sylvan Library is an interesting card. I do feel it can be powerful once out. But isn't this the reason to run Kozi? Karakas him back and recast for card advantage? You also then have the ability to dig for him than to wait for Sylvan Library to pop into hand or get pushed up from Tops.

What about running Enlightened Tutor over Trinket Mage in the Bant list? Wouldn't this open up the door a little for things more for Sideboard cards? I recall Rock Lee running Platinum Empirion, this would be a nice way to fetch it up and then SnT it out.

[mykatdied]

Sylvan Library is an interesting card. I do feel it can be powerful once out. But isn't this the reason to run Kozi? Karakas him back and recast for card advantage? You also then have the ability to dig for him than to wait for Sylvan Library to pop into hand or get pushed up from Tops.

What about running Enlightened Tutor over Trinket Mage in the Bant list? Wouldn't this open up the door a little for things more for Sideboard cards? I recall Rock Lee running Platinum Empirion, this would be a nice way to fetch it up and then SnT it out.

We'll the advantage to running library is that it drops turn 2 possibly, then begins smoothing out your top decks. Kozilek and karakas shenanigans doesn't begin until turn 4 or so unless you're running candelabra of tawnos. In which case it can begin as early as turn 3 when you cast Kozilek. On that note if you cast Kozilek turn 3 you are likely winning or going to win shortly thereafter.

[TheBoozeCube]

If you missed it, we just had a possible leak of the Mystic Gate expedition from OGW. If it's real, it basically confirms that <> is the new symbol for colorless mana. This means that we should have no difficulty casting any spell with <> in its cost. Personally, I'm getting very excited to see what new tools this set brings us.


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[Rock Lee]

If you missed it, we just had a possible leak of the Mystic Gate expedition from OGW. If it's real, it basically confirms that <> is the new symbol for colorless mana. This means that we should have no difficulty casting any spell with <> in its cost. Personally, I'm getting very excited to see what new tools this set brings us.


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Which is incredibly good news. I hate that the new Kozilek might make me play show and tell again though. Just when I was finally at terms with playing GW.

[Pdingo]

Hei guys

Last Weekend was the Nebraska War 3.0 in italy and i played Mono G 12 Post;)

List:

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Crop Rotation
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Expedition Map
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Vesuva
1 Karakas
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Pithing Needle
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 All Is Dust
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Maze of Ith
6 Forest
4 Ancient Stirrings
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
2 Exploration

SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Dismember
SB: 3 Obstinate Baloth

I played the same list as always:)
Just the SB is a little bit different. I prefer the Baloth over 3 Mindbreak Traps because i heard there a lot Miracle and BUG Delver:)
Now i can just lose to Storm...
Sadly i played 2 Times against Storm and i lost always 1:2 and really really close.

Match ups:

RG Lands 1:1 ( We had along Game 2 and in the End i lost it because i just drawing big Treaths and no Korsan Grip for a long time and he get's me with Port and 20/20 Token without Stage haha, here i missplayed a candelabra into a chalice because i tried to get her on the board..Maybe he forget to trigger the chalice haha, guys don't do that even if your opponent plays bad;)

ANT 1:2 (Hardest Match Up.. he played really slow and bad.. I mean i know every of his turn because i'm also a Storm player,
he going off into a PiF and he know that i had a crop in hand lol, but still hard to win, if i don't find a Sphere)

2:1 Junk

2:0 BUG Delver

2:1 BUG Delver (I think Baloth is not needed)

2:0 Infect

(Now i'm 4:1:1 and hoping for a good Match up like Miracles but no the badest Match up is here again haha)

1:2 Storm (Very nice Match and always really close, I could play the Marit Large at end of his turn but he going off into my own Sphere with Ad Nauseam..He really find's everything he needed and going off next turn into Pif..Sadly i can't play my map because i need 1 mana more to find a bojuka bog :(

Sadly im out now..

But hoping for price's and finally i get miracles

2:1

and the last game was too late at 22:15 evening and well i was so tired now..

0:2 Deathblade( First time i lose to this Match up. I misscounted my mana to play a eye into candelabra into ulamog into win for 1..
Should play a other way, Game 2 i had no chance because of Bad Topdecks..Game 3 we just played it for fun and i easy won that..)

so 5:3:1
It's a okay result and learned a lot again. Storm is hard to beat. Like i said to my friend, i just lose to storm.
Next time i don't lose to storm. I prefer now 3 Traps over baloth.

Meta was like Storm(Storm mirror in the Finals :),Miracle and BUG)

Thanks

Dingo

[k_omega]

2:0 Infect
Dingo

How did you accomplish that? I've found Infect difficult enough to put 1 Melira in the sideboard for GSZ.

[TheBoozeCube]

How did you accomplish that? I've found Infect difficult enough to put 1 Melira in the sideboard for GSZ.

Ancient Stirrings Mono-G generally has a better matchup vs Infect than GSZ Mono-G because of Maze of Ith.


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[Pdingo]

i played alot against infect and i know exactly how we can win
yea that's true mono g 12 Post has the best match up. maze is nice but sometimes they play easy around it and can win.
key here is naming Wasteland first. try to play chasm and you will probably win it.
g2 is more tricky but i board in dismember.. dismember is so good. Krosan Grip is bonkers against ink moth

[maCHOOga]

FYI,

World magic cup coverage just explained the new Kozilek and Wastes. They are indeed real!

Basically the <> can only be paid with colorless mana: cloudpost, glimmerpost, etc. Numeric numbers can be paid with any colorless or colored source.

I guess I now need a foil Kozilek! Hopefully they will repost the preview later today on Wizards site.

[Skriger]

New Kozi is a big deal. This gives non blue post decks a little bit more control during matchups, I love this. Evens the playing field a little. Now lets hope for other goodies from the new set.

[Spanese]

I'm looking to build into this deck, does anyone have any suggestions as to where to start? Maybe a complete most recent deck list?

[TheBoozeCube]

I'm looking to build into this deck, does anyone have any suggestions as to where to start? Maybe a complete most recent deck list?

First thing is to figure out what flavor of Post you like. The most common ones at the moment are:

UG
Pros: Plays Show & Tell, Brainstorm. Has countermagic vs combo.
Cons: Weakest vs Wasteland/Blood Moon bc most vulnerable to color screw, weaker to discard

Mono-G (Ancient Stirrings)
Pros: Fastest and consistent ramping, strong on-board defense with Maze and board wipes, most resilient to Wasteland/discard
Cons: Weak to combo. Doesn't play PrimeTime. Requires 3-4 Candelabras.

Mono-G (Green Sun's Zenith)
Pros: Toolbox deck. Very adaptable to a particular meta. Least expensive to build.
Cons: Less raw power. Reliance on smaller creatures make it more vulnerable to removal. Weakest in topdeck mode.

GW
Pros: Similar to above, but bigger toolbox (Enlightened Tutor plus GSZ). Strong sideboard options (RIP, Sacred Ground). Can play Terminus.
Cons: Same as GSZ version, but more vulnerable manabase.


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[Pdingo]

I think Mono G is better against Combo(With Combo i mean just storm based Decks or fast Decks like belcher)
Yes with blue you can play counter but just counter can't win against a good storm player.
In Mono G you can play more permanent based hate and also cards like Mindbreak trap or Surgical. You are a lot faster, maybe you can get them with a Dephts Combo.

Prime time is not needed and SnT is just very greedy sometimes. Right now i don't like to play UG. maybe in the Futur;)
GW is just a bad variant of the Deck and the only reason to play is StP. Because best Removal.

[drude1]

I think Mono G is better against Combo(With Combo i mean just storm based Decks or fast Decks like belcher)

GW is just a bad variant of the Deck and the only reason to play is StP. Because best Removal.

Of course you know what they say about opinions and all....

As a G/ W post player, I would completely disagree with the statement above. I don't play G/U so can't really comment on it's MUs. But it would make sense that they would have a superior MU to combo than mono green since they can play all the cards that green can and play counter magic.
I would say that G/W is better than mono green because it can play better hate, such as Canonist, leyline, Gaddock, RiP, etc.
in my opinion it also has a better aggro MU (which is why I switched from G to G/W) because it has fantastic creature removal in terminus and StP. The one upside to the mono green list is maybe that it is more resilient to wasteland, blood moon. Having said that, I won an 8 man online last night burning through Miracles with blood moon out in two games (is there ever a more satisfying win?), a mono green post player, and painter, with a blood moon out both games. I am still running 4 basics and 4 fetches, so getting green is not hard to do.


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[mykatdied]

Of course you know what they say about opinions and all....

As a G/ W post player, I would completely disagree with the statement above. I don't play G/U so can't really comment on it's MUs. But it would make sense that they would have a superior MU to combo than mono green since they can play all the cards that green can and play counter magic.
I would say that G/W is better than mono green because it can play better hate, such as Canonist, leyline, Gaddock, RiP, etc.
in my opinion it also has a better aggro MU (which is why I switched from G to G/W) because it has fantastic creature removal in terminus and StP. The one upside to the mono green list is maybe that it is more resilient to wasteland, blood moon. Having said that, I won an 8 man online last night burning through Miracles with blood moon out in two games (is there ever a more satisfying win?), a mono green post player, and painter, with a blood moon out both games. I am still running 4 basics and 4 fetches, so getting green is not hard to do.


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I play green with the white splash and I will second this. We generally run like mono green but we have some of the best hate options. Plus access to an e-tutor board if we wish. Which can be key vs burn, dredge, etc.

[TheBoozeCube]

I've been on Mono-G [edit: C/g] for 4 years now, and it is definitely the weakest build vs combo. That's why a whopping 12 of 15 sideboard cards in my deck are dedicated to fighting combo. Storm isn't unwinnable, but it's not a matchup I want to see.

The flip side is that Mono-G is much stronger in matchups that traditionally give other builds headaches, like BUG. Discard just doesn't do as much because we're fast, redundant, and can recover very quickly in topdeck mode.

All of the various builds have strengths and weaknesses. It's just a matter of finding what suits you and mastering it.


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[TheBoozeCube]

Random Thought:
Now that "C" appears to be the official abbreviation for the new colorless symbol, maybe we should use "C/g Post" to distinguish Ancient Stirrings Mono-G from GSZ Mono-G? I've always seen the build as more colorless splashing green than true monogreen anyway.


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[Pdingo]

i don't get why GW should be better because of the ,,toolbox'' for combo hate.
I mean a cannonist is probably the same like a sphere against storm. Cannonist gets beaten by decay or chain of vapor and cost white. Same for RIP against reanimate.
Like i said StP is nice but we don't need it because we have a good creature match up already.

I played a lot U/G and you don't play a lot based permanent hate in it and just some counters don't win against storm.
Of course Top into fluster is nice but same for Top into mindbreak trap;)

[Maagler]

I have been testing with and older list that I am pretty happy with in the current metagame.


4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Crop Rotation
2 Show and Tell
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Vesuva
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Brainstorm
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Karakas
3 Repeal
1 Trinket Mage
3 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Expedition Map
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Moment's Peace
2 Flusterstorm

2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Krosan Grip
2 Swan Song
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Force of Will


I have been very happy in testing with the list.

Lands, Sneak and Show, and Miracles seems like unlose-able match ups. I have also been happy with Moment's Peace and flusters in the main, since they do work in different matches but have overlap in many as well. I do want to fit another repeal in the deck, but I cant find the space right now.

All the cards in the side seem to have their place in each match, and in the case of sneak and show all 15 come in.

Some matches that I have played recently:


Lands:
Pithing needle on stage in the first game usually means game over for the lands player. Also bogging their graveyard when they have loam or try to waste-lock you. If you draw multiple needles in the fist game naming something other than stage (port or waste) may be correct depending on the board texture. Fetching basic lands early will help against wasteland.

after side you have to be wary of chalice of the void and K-grip. I like to bring in my own K-grips and keep in the explosives to deal with chalice. Letting them 2-1 themselves with repeal or Karakas is good times.

side: -1 Cavern of souls, -1 Glacial chasm, -2 Moment's Peace, +2 Force of Will +2 Krosan Grip


Miracles

This match is one of the main reasons that 12post is so good right now being up to 25% of many metagames. The new tech that they have recently is Monastery Menor. Chasm and Moment's Peace help for being killed quickly. Prioritize getting Cavern of Souls to cast your lovely green giant, and hold off fetching with your maps as long as possible so you have the ability to get your Eye of Ugin. Beware of Clique that can strip a card out of your hand if you are not careful to play around it; keeping the threat hidden under top and drawing it to play it during the main phase rather during the draw step will win you some games.

After side you have to be aware that many UW players run Blood Moon. I bring in swan songs to and K-grip to combat this. Also previously it would be common that I would side out glacial chams against UW, but this is no longer the plan due to fear of the Mentor.

Siding: -3 Pithing Needle -3 Crop Rotation +2 Swan song +2 K-Grip +2 Flusterstorm


Sneak and Show

This match is an interesting one for us. Getting down a Pithing Needle on Sneak Attack, and having a Karakas will likely mean that they can not win game 1, so this is usually what my endgame is. If you do get the needle down you can usually just let them show and tell and drop your own Titian to search for the Karakas. the other option is putting in needle off of show and tell to name what they put into play (grissle or sneak attack). The only issue with this deck now is some decks are running OMNI, which allows them to circumvent your gameplan. If they are running omni the gameplan is to cry and move on to the next game.

After side the match gets even better for the 12post player. In this version 15 cards come in. If they are on the omni version keep a hand with a etb trigger and Kgrip. otherwise land a needle or Revoker on sneak attack and attack it like game 1.

-1 Crop Rotation -2 Moments Peace, -2 Show and Tell, -1 Kozilek, -1 Glacial Chasm, -1 Bojuka Bog -1 Repeal, -1 Prime Time, -2 Glimmer Post, -1 Trinket Mage, -1 Engineered explosives, -1 Candle


Elves

If you are on the play try to repeal their fist turn play. Hold back Crop Rotation to get Chasm. if you are hiding under chasm make sure you have a plan for deathrite. Moment's peace shines in this match. The best was to win is to chain titans as fast as possible, while trying to disrupt what they are doing with repeals and explosives.

side: -3 Needle, -1 bog -1 trinket -1 caven of souls, +3 force +3 revoker


Death and Taxes

This match is base around how well you can play around their hate, and how fast you can get Titian online. Prioritize holding off crop Rotation for wastelands. naming Vial with needle may be just as effective at slowing them down as it would be naming wasteland. Repealing vial or an early mother of runes is not bad either. show and tell will win you the game if you can get it off. make sure you are not searching of eye right away as it can get waste-landed.

out of the side they may bring in Cataclyms.

side: -1 candle, -1 map, -1 bog, -1 Trinket mage, -1 caven of souls, -1 engineered explosives +2 Kgrip, +3 Revoker +1 flusterstorm


RUG Tempo

they want to try to wasteland and stifle you out of the game. Combat the mana denial by searching for basics early,l getting down needle on wasteland, or cropping in response to a wasteland. Repealing delver after flip feels dirty and should always be gone for if not just for the fun of it. Moment's peace will keep you in the late game and gives you two extra turns to get your shit together. Getting cavern down on giant helps a lot. after you get a giant search up glimmer posts until they cant combat the life swing anymore. Stifle will also allow them to stop your titian trigger so be wary if you are deciding between that and something else to save you from losing. EE helps a lot against flipped delvers as well. If you can get to turn 4 without any major messups you will probably win the game.

side: -1 map, -1 top +2 flusterstorm

same as game 1, they might bring in artifact hate, so be careful dropping early artifacts that you need to stick around.

Tendrils

You will probably lose game 1 unless you can hide a flusterstorm or a well timed croproation for bog under top.

side: -2 moment's peace, -3 pithing needle, -1 Candelabra, -2 show and tell, -2 repeal, +2 swam song, +2 fluster storm +4 force of will +1 blue elemental blast +3 phyrexian revoker.

Name lion's eye with revoker. put a top on the board and float counters. Make them go all in on something an punish them for it with hidden counters. after side the match is not too bad, you will likely be killing them with revoker.




that's all I got for now, I will add more later.

[drude1]

The most obvious difference between canonist and 3sphere is that canonist has legs. So does gaddock teeg. So, both of these can swing for damage every turn while not allowing them to combo off. That way it's harder for them to ad nauseum when they finally do deal with canonist. It also doesn't slow you down at all, where 3sphere sometimes can. G/W also can (and should) play leyline, which is quite good against storm and also pretty strong against burn and discard decks. And I must say, I don't think the matchup against super aggro strategies such as RUG delver or elves is very good without good removal. flipping terminus off a top when elves is alpha striking you feels pretty good.
Again, everyone can have their opinions. Just be careful when you throw out some blanket comment like "G/W is just bad".

[Lemnear]

http://i.imgur.com/bY4xQVG.jpg

Let me deop this here for you guys/gals.


tap: add <> to your mana pool

2<>, tap: draw a card. Use this ability only if you have no cards in hand.

Seems like a perfect fit for this deck or MUD to draw cards.

[TheBoozeCube]

http://i.imgur.com/bY4xQVG.jpg

Let me deop this here for you guys/gals.



Seems like a perfect fit for this deck or MUD to draw cards.

This is definitely intriguing and warrants testing, although I don't think it will be good enough. As a tutor target, the state where you really want this is when you're in topdeck mode but don't have the mana yet to activate Eye of Ugin (which is otherwise usually the ideal target in topdeck mode). So basically, you want this card in a situation where you're pretty far behind, but I don't know if this is enough to catch you up.


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[Spanese]

First thing is to figure out what flavor of Post you like. The most common ones at the moment are:

UG
Pros: Plays Show & Tell, Brainstorm. Has countermagic vs combo.
Cons: Weakest vs Wasteland/Blood Moon bc most vulnerable to color screw, weaker to discard

Mono-G (Ancient Stirrings)
Pros: Fastest and consistent ramping, strong on-board defense with Maze and board wipes, most resilient to Wasteland/discard
Cons: Weak to combo. Doesn't play PrimeTime. Requires 3-4 Candelabras.

Mono-G (Green Sun's Zenith)
Pros: Toolbox deck. Very adaptable to a particular meta. Least expensive to build.
Cons: Less raw power. Reliance on smaller creatures make it more vulnerable to removal. Weakest in topdeck mode.

GW
Pros: Similar to above, but bigger toolbox (Enlightened Tutor plus GSZ). Strong sideboard options (RIP, Sacred Ground). Can play Terminus.
Cons: Same as GSZ version, but more vulnerable manabase.


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Hmm, I really am not sure, I mean I currently enjoy playing U-tron and enjoying it, where are the decklist for each?

[TheBoozeCube]

The most obvious difference between canonist and 3sphere is that canonist has legs. So does gaddock teeg. So, both of these can swing for damage every turn while not allowing them to combo off. That way it's harder for them to ad nauseum when they finally do deal with canonist. It also doesn't slow you down at all, where 3sphere sometimes can. G/W also can (and should) play leyline, which is quite good against storm and also pretty strong against burn and discard decks. And I must say, I don't think the matchup against super aggro strategies such as RUG delver or elves is very good without good removal. flipping terminus off a top when elves is alpha striking you feels pretty good.
Again, everyone can have their opinions. Just be careful when you throw out some blanket comment like "G/W is just bad".

(I think you clicked the wrong post to quote. I was defending G/W.)

Another difference is the number of sideboard slots they require. C/g usually needs to dedicate a substantial number of slots to 3Sphere and/or Sphere of Resistance (I use 5x slots between them). The advantage of GW's toolbox approach is that it only needs 1x copy of Canonist, Teeg, RIP, etc, because it can access them easily with its tutors. This frees up a lot of space and, therefore, a lot of flexibility.


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[Corazu]

This is definitely intriguing and warrants testing, although I don't think it will be good enough. As a tutor target, the state where you really want this is when you're in topdeck mode but don't have the mana yet to activate Eye of Ugin (which is otherwise usually the ideal target in topdeck mode). So basically, you want this card in a situation where you're pretty far behind, but I don't know if this is enough to catch you up.


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Seems pretty lackluster to me, in my opinion. Mirrorpool seems like more of an option than this, and I'm not even sure if I want that.

[Bobmans]

Hello, i am not in particular a Eldrazi player, but for some time i have been walking around with the idea of a RG version supporting Punishing Fire. I am not sure how far anyway has explored this option, so please if this following list is total crap then don't shoot it down right away. With some interesting cards being spoiled in the Oath expansion i took a shot a RG list that also supports the instant Pyroclasm variant Kozilek's Return and the beefy creature World Breaker. So maybe this could lead somewhere and i was hoping for your help and experience. List:


4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Taiga
1 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Maze of ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm / Cavern of Souls
1 Sea Gate Ruins / Fire-lit Thicket: Fire-lit Ticket could potentially fix mana for multiple PFires or casting a Primeval Titan.

4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Crop Rotation / Sylvan Scrying: Here i am wordering if i want to sacrifice lands, but i guess that fetching a silver bullet at instant speed is more important.
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Crucible of Worlds: I was looking at Life from the Loam at first, but realized that with Emrakul this would not work.
1 Candelabra of Tawnos

1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Mina and Denn, Wildborn: Exploration, 4/4 body, can protect lands and has the ability to give the big dudes Trample.

3 Punishing Fire
2 Kozilek's Return
1 Red Sun's Zenith: Might be to cute, but early it can shoot down creatures and lategame it can act as a finisher with all the mana this deck can generate.

3 Primeval Titan
2 World Breaker
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Karn Liberated

[Spanese]

(I think you clicked the wrong post to quote. I was defending G/W.)

Another difference is the number of sideboard slots they require. C/g usually needs to dedicate a substantial number of slots to 3Sphere and/or Sphere of Resistance (I use 5x slots between them). The advantage of GW's toolbox approach is that it only needs 1x copy of Canonist, Teeg, RIP, etc, because it can access them easily with its tutors. This frees up a lot of space and, therefore, a lot of flexibility.


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Anyway you can link me the decks?

[Maagler]

Hello, i am not in particular a Eldrazi player, but for some time i have been walking around with the idea of a RG version supporting Punishing Fire. I am not sure how far anyway has explored this option, so please if this following list is total crap then don't shoot it down right away. With some interesting cards being spoiled in the Oath expansion i took a shot a RG list that also supports the instant Pyroclasm variant Kozilek's Return and the beefy creature World Breaker. So maybe this could lead somewhere and i was hoping for your help and experience. List:


4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Taiga
1 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Maze of ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm / Cavern of Souls
1 Sea Gate Ruins / Fire-lit Thicket: Fire-lit Ticket could potentially fix mana for multiple PFires or casting a Primeval Titan.

4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Crop Rotation / Sylvan Scrying: Here i am wordering if i want to sacrifice lands, but i guess that fetching a silver bullet at instant speed is more important.
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Crucible of Worlds: I was looking at Life from the Loam at first, but realized that with Emrakul this would not work.
1 Candelabra of Tawnos

1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Mina and Denn, Wildborn: Exploration, 4/4 body, can protect lands and has the ability to give the big dudes Trample.

3 Punishing Fire
2 Kozilek's Return
1 Red Sun's Zenith: Might be to cute, but early it can shoot down creatures and lategame it can act as a finisher with all the mana this deck can generate.

3 Primeval Titan
2 World Breaker
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Karn Liberated

You are going to want the Crop Rotation over the Sylvan Scrying. Also you may want to consider Bonfire of the Damned.

[TheBoozeCube]

Anyway you can link me the decks?

This is my current list:

Main Deck (61)

Creatures (4)
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells (28)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Exploration
3 Pithing Needle
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
2 All Is Dust
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Lands (29)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Maze of Ith
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
8 Forest

Sideboard (15)
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Trinisphere
3 Krosan Grip
4 Mindbreak Trap




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[Spanese]

This is my current list:

Main Deck (61)

Creatures (4)
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells (28)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Exploration
3 Pithing Needle
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
2 All Is Dust
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Lands (29)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Maze of Ith
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
8 Forest

Sideboard (15)
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Trinisphere
3 Krosan Grip
4 Mindbreak Trap




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Thanks!

Is that a GW deck? Where can I find the list of every single one?

UG

Mono-G (Ancient Stirrings)

Mono-G (Green Sun's Zenith)

GW

Also, what deck is this?


https://youtu.be/yRqZSfIihgE

[ESG]

Also, what deck is this?


https://youtu.be/yRqZSfIihgE

That's the UG version. Kind of an old video.

[TheBoozeCube]

Thanks!

Is that a GW deck? Where can I find the list of every single one?

This is Mono-G (Ancient Stirrings). Or "C/g", as I've recently decided to start calling it (colorless splashing green).


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[Spanese]

That's the UG version. Kind of an old video.

Is there a UG version deck list?

Also, how do you use Glacial Chasm?

[TheBoozeCube]

Also, how do you use Glacial Chasm?

Crop Rotation into Chasm is basically your last line of defense. It's especially good vs Infect, since life is a secondary concern.

There's also a neat trick you can do with Thespian's Stage. If you copy Chasm in response to the upkeep trigger, you get a fresh Chasm without sacrificing another land (as with Vesuva).


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[Spanese]

Crop Rotation into Chasm is basically your last line of defense. It's especially good vs Infect, since life is a secondary concern.

There's also a neat trick you can do with Thespian's Stage. If you copy Chasm in response to the upkeep trigger, you get a fresh Chasm without sacrificing another land (as with Vesuva).


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Thanks!

[drude1]

(I think you clicked the wrong post to quote. I was defending G/W.)

Another difference is the number of sideboard slots they require. C/g usually needs to dedicate a substantial number of slots to 3Sphere and/or Sphere of Resistance (I use 5x slots between them). The advantage of GW's toolbox approach is that it only needs 1x copy of Canonist, Teeg, RIP, etc, because it can access them easily with its tutors. This frees up a lot of space and, therefore, a lot of flexibility.


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Yeah, what the crap!? I totally was quoting the "G/W sucks" dude. sorry.

Also, here is the G/W list I am currently playing:


// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [A] Savannah
3 [UG] Forest
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [UG] Plains

// Creatures
3 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [CMD] Veteran Explorer

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [AVR] Terminus
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [M15] Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 [M14] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [PS] Orim's Chant

Many people do play an enlightened tutor SB with g/w, which I would do if I was not playing GSZ in the main.

[maCHOOga]

Yeah, what the crap!? I totally was quoting the "G/W sucks" dude. sorry.

Also, here is the G/W list I am currently playing:


// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [A] Savannah
3 [UG] Forest
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [UG] Plains

// Creatures
3 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [CMD] Veteran Explorer

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [AVR] Terminus
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [M15] Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 [M14] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [PS] Orim's Chant

Many people do play an enlightened tutor SB with g/w, which I would do if I was not playing GSZ in the main.

I like your list....any reason why you cut Oracle of Mul Daya? Because it just dies to anything?

[drude1]

I like your list....any reason why you cut Oracle of Mul Daya? Because it just dies to anything?

Yeah, I've never been a fan of that card. I don't like making opponent's crappy spot removal good and I don't like showing my opponent the top of my library all the time. The new G/R 4/4 guy coming out might be okay, although it costs red.


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[Seraphix]

Yeah, I've never been a fan of that card. I don't like making opponent's crappy spot removal good and I don't like showing my opponent the top of my library all the time. The new G/R 4/4 guy coming out might be okay, although it costs red.


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Doesn't Dryad Arbor also make your opponent's crappy spot removal good?

Would you consider Courser of Kruphix at all?

[TheBoozeCube]

Question: Do you bring in K-Grip for RUG Delver? I've been bringing in Surgical for Wasteland/FoW and Trinisphere lately, but I got blown out last night by Pithing Needle on Expedition Map. I haven't had much time to play lately, but is Needle a thing in Delver now?


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[Pdingo]

Yes i do. I board in 2 Krosan grip. Normally you can side out some cards like 1 top or some other slow card.
Surgical is not needed, Needle is enough should be enough.
For what do you play FoW. I mean you don't want waste cards and RUG Delver have always more counters..
Specially when you play UG, constants is very important here.
I think Trinisphere is too slow.

Greets

[TheBoozeCube]

Yes i do. I board in 2 Krosan grip. Normally you can side out some cards like 1 top or some other slow card.
Surgical is not needed, Needle is enough should be enough.
For what do you play FoW. I mean you don't want waste cards and RUG Delver have always more counters..
Specially when you play UG, constants is very important here.
I think Trinisphere is too slow.

Greets

I think you misunderstood me. I don't bring in FoW (or play UG). FoW is my secondary target to hit with Surgical. I usually don't care about Daze or Spell Pierce after turn 2 or 3, and FoW is their only real answer to a board wipe.


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[maCHOOga]

So last night we had a secret Santa legacy deck swap. We were each assigned a person to build the deck they would most likely hate to play. There was one copy of RockLees latest Bant post deck. It obviously didn't go well for that individual, as I think it's the hardest version of the deck to play. I watched him get destroyed by lands, lol!

We still couldn't figure out why there were 4x surgical extractions in the sideboard. I'm going to guess that's just a metagame thing? I personally would never play more than two copies of it.

Of course, someone gave me the most unoriginal deck ever, good old rug delver. Even with rug delver, still couldn't out race burn lol!

[Zotmaster]

Question: Do you bring in K-Grip for RUG Delver? I've been bringing in Surgical for Wasteland/FoW and Trinisphere lately, but I got blown out last night by Pithing Needle on Expedition Map. I haven't had much time to play lately, but is Needle a thing in Delver now?


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It is sometimes. I actually had a RUG player board in - and I'm not kidding - Blood Moon one time, which I totally didn't expect. I had freely used Crop Rotation on my only basic Forest before that came down, and yeah...it ended badly for me. In all seriousness, I usually board in at least a grip or two every match. Minus anti-Show and Tell tech, most of the stuff decks have to use against us are either artifacts or enchantments, and if nothing else it's also a great way to keep from being surprised: like totally not expecting RUG to bring in Blood Moon.

[Postman]

Short question concerning UG builds: anyone playing 5 fetchlands? What color is No 5? Thx

[Zotmaster]

Short question concerning UG builds: anyone playing 5 fetchlands? What color is No 5? Thx

Just split them up. I've had Pithing Needle blow me out on naming Misty Rainforest before, so although it rarely matters, I just split them up among all the blue fetches. So if you're running basic Forests, run 4 Mistys and then just decide which blue fetchland has the coolest art, and run one of those. If you're not running basic Forests, just split your fetches among all the blue fetches.

[Postman]

Just split them up. I've had Pithing Needle blow me out on naming Misty Rainforest before, so although it rarely matters, I just split them up among all the blue fetches. So if you're running basic Forests, run 4 Mistys and then just decide which blue fetchland has the coolest art, and run one of those. If you're not running basic Forests, just split your fetches among all the blue fetches.
I run 1 Island and 1 Forest, and right now 4 Misty Rainforest (no split for a certain reason). Often I decide to go with 5 fetchlands, and usually I would add a fifth blue one. But there were several games in the last weeks I needed the forest as quick as possible, that's why I am unsure wether blue or green is more important :-/

[drude1]

Doesn't Dryad Arbor also make your opponent's crappy spot removal good?

Would you consider Courser of Kruphix at all?

Yes to the dryad arbor question. And I am not in love with that card either and am seriously considering taking it out. However, it is quite good in certain MUs and is fun to sac to Liliana when your opponent think's they've got you.

Problem with Courser is that it doesn't actually advance your lands at all. So no, wouldn't ever play courser. Give me Courser's ass on Oracle and you could make an argument. Like I said, the new G/R guy is very playable I think. I would also consider titania, protector of Argoth. She does have a small ass but she does net you a land and her other effect is pretty powerful as well. Probably a SB slot at best though.

As for k-grip against RUG, since I am playing GSZ, I usually just bring in the one reclamation sage. they way it's not a totally dead card if they don't have one of their artifact hate cards out. I can also obviously go searching for it as well. K-grip usually comes in for me just against stoneforge decks, Miracles, MUD and blood moon decks.

ps, one last thing. I am kinda missing Ancient Stirrings in my deck. People really go after the Expedition Maps in sideboarded games (with needles, abrupt decays, etc) and I've had some difficulty finding my posts. I might cut one needle (since I can more easily find them with stirrings anyway ) and maybe one other card (a crop rotation maybe?) to fit in 2 stirrings back into my list.

[rlesko]

Question: Do you bring in K-Grip for RUG Delver? I've been bringing in Surgical for Wasteland/FoW and Trinisphere lately, but I got blown out last night by Pithing Needle on Expedition Map. I haven't had much time to play lately, but is Needle a thing in Delver now?


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I play RUG I always bring in my pithing needle against 12 post. Most RUG lists have at least 1 in their 75. I also bring in REB, Surgical, and maybe Ancient Grudge (to kill YOUR pithing needles :tongue: ).

[mykatdied]

Personally just because Oracle of Mul Daya keeps their removal alive, doesn't mean I do not want it. Oracle is still a card they must answer as it ramps us as well as supplies us with card advantage and the ability to dig deeper through top decked lands. Because of this our opponent's have to keep removal in their deck that is otherwise bad removal against us (lightning bolt), which in turn limits the amount of cards they can trim and makes side boarding more difficult for them. In my experience at least. As a sidenote I am excited for the new RG guy. He seems like he is worth a splash into red.

[Rock Lee]

Went with a revamp'd version of G/w Post this week. Got 2nd, only loss to U/R when I couldn't draw a land, top, crop, map, or lifegain in 9-11 cards, two games in a row. Much tragic.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [U] Savannah
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
3 [ME] Forest (2)
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [BNG] Courser of Kruphix
1 [WL] Veteran Explorer
2 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya
1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [M11] Primeval Titan

// Spells
2 [BFZ] Retreat to Kazandu
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 [RTR] Pithing Needle
2 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
1 [LG] Sylvan Library

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [MMA] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [M15] Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [IA] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 [NPH] Melira, Sylvok Outcast

Deck felt extremely smooth. fetching into dryad arbor with Retreat to Kazandu out eot, then hitting with a 5/5 is quite bonkers, allowing for even more usages of Crop rotation.

To answer maCHOOga's question, x4 Surgical are there to give you turn 0-2 plays against combo before the bears come down and do the heavy lifting.

[Skriger]

Went 3-1 this weekly magic with this bant list:


I've worked on a list similar to your Bant list. I really like the idea of Terminus with brainstorm and top for removal. I've been running it online as well as paper and getting pretty good results. I think I might be switching out Pithing Needle for Phyrexian Revoker. Paper version has 4 show and tell, online has Tabernacle.
Here is my build:


//Land (25)
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Cloudpost
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Island
1x Karakas
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
1x Savannah
4x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
2x Windswept Heath

//Creature (11)
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Platinum Emperion
4x Primeval Titan
3x Trinket Mage
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

//Artifact (11)
2x Candelabra of Tawnos
3x Expedition Map
2x Pithing Needle
4x Sensei's Divining Top

//Instant (6)
3x Brainstorm
3x Crop Rotation

//Sorcery (7)
3x Show and Tell
4x Terminus

//Sideboard (15)
3x Krosan Grip
1x Show and Tell
4x Surgical Extraction
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Trickbind


This thing holds it's ground really well. I do miss Vesuva and Maze of Ith though, might try to build it to accommodate the 2 again. I've been trying to play with the idea of using Enlightened Tutor in the deck but then would require more white mana source which feels too thinned out to run show and tell version. Perhaps in a GW version? I will be going to a tournament this weekend running the list above. Hopefully it should pan out well. Lots of Delver players around here.

[Baum]

I plan on running GW Post at a local tournament on Sunday. The list is inspired by John Kassari's GP list and the one Rock Lee is running right now. Besides the fact that I'm new to the deck and still make a lot of misplays, I'm really struggling with my sideboarding. Most of the time it's rather obvious what to bring in, but oftentimes I've got no clue what to board out.

It would be great if you guys could provide me with a "priority" list of which cards you would cut first, then second and so on.

The matchups I'm really unsure about are Delver (BUG/RUG), Shardless, Jund and 4c Loam/Punishing Abzan (whatever you want to call it)

The List:

4 Primeval Titan
2 Oracle of Mul Daya
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Crop Rotation
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Moment's Peace
1 All Is Dust

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
2 Savannah
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dawnstrider
1 Reclamation Sage

Thanks in advance ;)

[Rock Lee]

It would be great if you guys could provide me with a "priority" list of which cards you would cut first, then second and so on.

My advice to sideboarding has and always will be the same.

Having a stock in/out list is a one-way trip to failure. Local player Ross Merriam and SCG point #4 atm also agrees. Going into matchups assuming you will side out X for Y is always bad. What is a better approach is:

1) have broad ideas of what is good/bad,
2) observe what is in their deck to counter, and
3) know/anticipate what will come in against you.

This is a good approach to both sideboarding, but also mulliganing, and play.

Example with Death and Taxes.

1) Their approach is mana taxing, mine is mana building. They will try to lock/grind me out, while I am trying to go over their denial and ramp into fatties.

2) Their best cards are rishadan port, wasteland. mediocre cards are Phyrexian revoker and Thalia. Tricks involve them Flickerwisping my lands/blockers/buildup for an alpha strike swing in, protection to targetted removal with Mother of Runes, Waiting on 3 mana with Aven Mindcensor for searches, Vialing in Revoker/Thalia when you have Map/Candelabra/Top or only 1 mana for crop/brainstorm/repeal. Their most important card is Aether vial, allowing them to mana tax or threaten you (equip/stp/aven mindcensor tricks) with their lands.

3) Sideboard cards to be aware of are Aven Mindcensor, Cataclysm/Armageddon, Spirit of the Labyrinth. They cannot sideboard Null Rod.

Thus you can conclude that -Bog, -Chasm, -Repeals, -(1-2) tops, -(1-2) maps, -(1 candelabra), -(1-2 fatties) for Artifact destruction, ways of dealing with a X/(1-2) toughness creature, and possible combat tricks.

My current list is very strong against DnT main, but I still side in x2 Kgrip, x1 Reclamation Sage, x2 Thalia, Guardian of Sumptin, and took out x1 bog, x1 chasm, x1 top, x1 map, x1 Cavern of Souls in my last matchup (this recent week in the finals), but this would change depending on their build. (example. they ran x4 dust bowls. If they ran chalice, red splash, green splash, more aggro, more control, I would alter this significantly)

[maCHOOga]

Deck felt extremely smooth. fetching into dryad arbor with Retreat to Kazandu out eot, then hitting with a 5/5 is quite bonkers, allowing for even more usages of Crop rotation.

To answer maCHOOga's question, x4 Surgical are there to give you turn 0-2 plays against combo before the bears come down and do the heavy lifting.

Thanks for the feedback. There is also a high probability I'm on the GW train for this weekends event!

So what should be the gameplan against lands? Obviously there's a desire to surgical Life or Dark Depths. The lack of repeals means its Crop Rotation for Chasm/Karakas or bust right? I almost feel like one has to mulligan to pithing needle or crop rotation.

Lastly, why are you opting not to play Stage + Dark Depths? Do you think it makes the deck too inconsistent?

[Rock Lee]

Thanks for the feedback. There is also a high probability I'm on the GW train for this weekends event!

So what should be the gameplan against lands? Obviously there's a desire to surgical Life or Dark Depths. The lack of repeals means its Crop Rotation for Chasm/Karakas or bust right? I almost feel like one has to mulligan to pithing needle or crop rotation.

Lastly, why are you opting not to play Stage + Dark Depths? Do you think it makes the deck too inconsistent?

Against lands, if I do not have needle/crop, relic is big, but my favorite way to beat them is to gain 3-4 life, then just cast ugin and exile the token. This build can gain loads of life, making the matchup just as much a joke.

In testing I found Stage/Depths to always be a turn 5 kill, and very vulnerable to things the deck already is vulnerable to (wasteland completely stops it), or could have previously ignored (stp/bounce/lifegain). I found that Retreat to Kazandu allowed for a kill 2-3 turns after playing it if you went all in on the plan, which is good enough while still being productive under pressure.

[k_omega]

Thanks for the feedback. There is also a high probability I'm on the GW train for this weekends event!

So what should be the gameplan against lands? Obviously there's a desire to surgical Life or Dark Depths. The lack of repeals means its Crop Rotation for Chasm/Karakas or bust right? I almost feel like one has to mulligan to pithing needle or crop rotation.

With Surgical or Rest in Peace I think the matchup is pretty easy, provided that you can make lots of mana as well. Needle therefore plays a key role and I don't keep hands without it unless they have 2 basics and something relevant to do with them (e.g. map for Karakas). What to name with needle depends a great deal on what they have in play/graveyard and what your hand allows you to do. Crop Rotation alone is not good enough, I think, since they can easily deal with whatever land you get and just present Marit Lage again before you are likely to steamroll them. You really want permanent answers first before getting fancy with your lands. Once you can stop them from messing with your mana, though, crushing them becomes easy.

Since they basically can't remove Primeval Titan, getting one in play almost always leads to a win but it can require some creative maneuvering to do so. I once rotated into Vesuva copying a port with which to EOT tap their port so that they couldn't port my Cloudpost and I could GSZ for titan, for instance.

If you're playing in the P9 tournament, good luck. I'll be out of town but hopefully a Post player will still do well.

On an unrelated note, I 4-0'ed a local event with a low-GSZ build I've been trying out:
-------------------------
4 Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Vesuva
3 Forest, Misty Rainforest
2 Cavern of Souls,
1 Savannah, Bojuka Bog, Eye of Ugin, Karakas, Glacial Chasm, Khalni Garden, Thespian's Stage, Dark Depths
-------------------------
4 Primeval Titan
2 Oracle of Mul Daya, Ugin
1 Emrakul, Kozilek, Ulamog the Ceaseless Hunger
-------------------------
4 Crop Rotation, Top
3 Expedition Map, Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Explore, Candelabra, GSZ, All is Dust, Moment's Peace

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Krosan Grip
2 Sacred Ground, Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere
1 Pithing Needle, Hangarback Walker

Round 1 vs. stripped-down budget U/G Post (2-0): Candelabra enables some grossly powerful plays that steamroll my opponent.

Round 2 vs. Burn (2-1): I lost game 1 to a Swiftspear-powered bolt draw without doing anything beyond activating Top. In game 2, Trinisphere locks out Price of Progress long enough to assemble Stage-Depths, helped by Explore. Explore shows up again in game 3 and allows me to hold up Crop Rotation -> Chasm while assembling Marit Lage again. I boarded in only 3 Leylines, never saw them, and never missed them either. Explore seemed much more relevant.

Round 3 vs. Dredge (2-1): I keep 6 with one land on the strength of a Map and Crop Rotation, hoping to find a green source (I knew my opponent was playing dredge and prioritized quick access to Bojuka Bog). I don't find a green source, wait too long to play Chasm, and lose. Game 2 sees Relic slow down the graveyard action long enough for Trinisphere to arrive and lock out spells from my opponent. Primeval Titan then seals the game. In game 3 my opponent fails to dredge into a second dredger and resorts to 1/1 beatdown. Ulamog laughs all the way to the match slip.

I boarded out all my Pithing Needles but I'm not sure that is best. My opponent powered through Bojuka Bog in game 1 with Faithless Looting, and I decided Putrid Imp/Coliseum weren't reason enough to keep needles. Those cards were a bit of a problem in game 2 but not too much to handle.

Round 4 vs. Reanimator (2-1): I hoped to test the effectiveness of Relic in this matchup but never saw it. I name Griselbrand with a T2 Needle and my opponent just cantrips. I resolve Primeval Titan via Cavern of Souls to search up Karakas and the the Stage to go with a naturally drawn Depths causing a concession. In game 2 I have Crop Rotation in hand and decide to hold it up at all times with mana for Daze. I think this ended up costing me the game, as I don't develop a significant board and he was able to reanimate two creatures with Force of Will for the Crop Rotation. In retrospect it might well have been better to lead with Cloudposts and take the risk of an early reanimation. In the deciding game, I deploy a top, needle on Griselbrand, and Candelabra which enables a T4 cast Kozilek. Kozilek draws a Crop Rotation which is enough to stop an attempt at reanimating Ashen Rider. Kozilek then annihilates my opponent's hopes, dreams, and lands.

I'm curious how you other G/w players approach the Reanimator matchup. It feels a bit shaky but I don't see what more there is to do. I used to play Rest in Peace but found it too hard to get white mana early and replaced it with maindeck relics. What are thoughts on sphere effects here?

Impressive cards: Trinisphere, Explore, Candelabra, Stage/Depths
I imagine it doesn't surprise anyone else here, but although I knew Candelabra would be strong I was surprised at how much activating it felt like being strapped to a rocket, particularly in game 3 against Reanimator. Wow!

Lackluster card: Leyline of Sanctity
I returned to having this card in the sideboard because of Storm (against which it has performed admirably), and assumed it would be good against Burn as well. Ironically, all but one game that I've won against Burn I won without Leyline and I think now that that is no coincidence. The matchup really tests the quality of Post's draws and Leyline compels you to keep hands that are otherwise poor since you can't realistically cast it in time, and unlike Storm the Burn deck will damage you while you hide behind Leyline. Fortunately we do have the tools to beat Burn unassisted and I think the focus should be on that. I plan to bring in the full four spheres before the first Leyline next time.

[mykatdied]

I'm curious how you other G/w players approach the Reanimator matchup. It feels a bit shaky but I don't see what more there is to do. I used to play Rest in Peace but found it too hard to get white mana early and replaced it with maindeck relics. What are thoughts on sphere effects here?

Personally I have 2 Rest in Peace, 1 Natural Order, 1 Bojuka Bog, 1 Maze of Ith, and an Oblivion Stone that I bring in. The 6 I trim for those are the 4 Explore, 1 Primeval Titan and 1 tabernacle. I make these changes because the early ramp with explore doesn't do enough, bringing in extra natural order helps me get titans easier and the tabernacle exchanges with maze to help against non legend creatures attacking aside from inkwell leviathan. The 1 card I don't want to see in this match up is tidespout tyrant especially if they have a hand full of lotus petals and cantrips. You're likely never beating that card without the ability to prevent it coming into play, or swords to plowshares/terminus to get rid of it.

[Morden]

http://i68.tinypic.com/jziud4.jpg

THIS!
SOOOOOO great. Perfect also with S&T.

[Zotmaster]

I was going to bring him up as well. Even as a vanilla 5/5, the potential for card advantage is definitely there, and Cavern of Souls helps cover him. He seems at least worthy of a try. I also wonder if that would make Alhammarret's Archive playable.

[MGB]

Went with a revamp'd version of G/w Post this week. Got 2nd, only loss to U/R when I couldn't draw a land, top, crop, map, or lifegain in 9-11 cards, two games in a row. Much tragic.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [U] Savannah
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
3 [ME] Forest (2)
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [BNG] Courser of Kruphix
1 [WL] Veteran Explorer
2 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya
1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [M11] Primeval Titan

// Spells
2 [BFZ] Retreat to Kazandu
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 [RTR] Pithing Needle
2 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
1 [LG] Sylvan Library

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [MMA] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [M15] Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [IA] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 [NPH] Melira, Sylvok Outcast

Deck felt extremely smooth. fetching into dryad arbor with Retreat to Kazandu out eot, then hitting with a 5/5 is quite bonkers, allowing for even more usages of Crop rotation.

To answer maCHOOga's question, x4 Surgical are there to give you turn 0-2 plays against combo before the bears come down and do the heavy lifting.

So have you been generally disappointed with Knight of the Reliquary in your GWx builds? Is he out of the list until further notice?

[Ponders]

http://i68.tinypic.com/jziud4.jpg

THIS!
SOOOOOO great. Perfect also with S&T.


Its definitely interesting in the sense that its a colorless creature with options. IDK if its mana curve is viable, 6 is still expensive in this format.

[mykatdied]

I think I personally would prefer conduit of Ruin in most circumstances. But this seems like a fine early game engine. Worthy of testing

[Pdingo]

i don't like endbringer.. i mean 6 mana without any impact on the board and dies against stp.
you have to wait a turn... and i mean what would you cut???
i mean in UG Titan is alot better. same for Gw. And mono G playd just better cards.

[MechTactical]

i don't like endbringer.. i mean 6 mana without any impact on the board and dies against stp.
you have to wait a turn... and i mean what would you cut???
i mean in UG Titan is alot better. same for Gw. And mono G playd just better cards.

Yep, agreed:
Doesn't have ETB.
Does have summoning sickness.

[Morden]

At the moment my big cows are
Emrakul
Kozilek
4 titans
2 emperion

I was thinking to cut an emperion for endbringer. I think it's a little better in the infect matchup, and this deck is becoming more popular in my meta. Emperion stops invigorate ok, but I died lot of time under vines-berserk-become immense, or simply by 2-3 infecting creatures attacking for a couple of round. If endbringer comes into the field, infect has no way to remove it (by the way on g2 they have krosan grip to destroy emperion) and I can kill all its creatures with the first ability.

[Rock Lee]

So have you been generally disappointed with Knight of the Reliquary in your GWx builds? Is he out of the list until further notice?

I still have knight on my radar, just experimenting with other options.

[Ponders]

I wondered if anyone had an estimate as to what % of players were playing post-themed decks at larger events?

[Pdingo]

Hello Guys

Today i played a little Legacy Tournament in Lucerne Switzerland with 16 People and Top 4:)
List as always:

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Crop Rotation
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Expedition Map
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Vesuva
1 Karakas
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Pithing Needle
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 All Is Dust
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Maze of Ith
6 Forest
4 Ancient Stirrings
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
2 Exploration

SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Dismember
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap

Match ups:

2:1 RUG Delver
2:1 Zoo
0:2 BUG Controll
2:0 Death and Taxes

Then Semi:
2:0 BUG Controll (Same)
Final:
2:1 Zoo (Same)

So i won a Wb Bayou;)

Greets Dingo

[Ponders]

Something else I've been thinking about is the ubiquitous presence of wasteland, and whether or not the post deck should be squeezing it in somehow. With the ability to tutor for lands with titan, map and crop it seems like it should be a valuable tool. We also tend to run more lands than just about every other deck, and might be better able to withstand a waste-war over the mid term. Disrupting the tempo of the average (predictable small format opening sequences) might be a strategy worth exploring. With this is mind, I've been sampling this list over the last couple days.

Candel x4 (because candels win games)
Map x3
Top x3

Em
Koz
Ula
Titan x4

Exploration x4
Crop x4

Cloud x4
Glimmer x4
Vesuva x4

Forest x5
Eye
bog
chasm
tabernacle
karakas
maze x2
Wasteland x4

ancient stirrings x4
Animists awakening x3

[mykatdied]

Something else I've been thinking about is the ubiquitous presence of wasteland, and whether or not the post deck should be squeezing it in somehow. With the ability to tutor for lands with titan, map and crop it seems like it should be a valuable tool. We also tend to run more lands than just about every other deck, and might be better able to withstand a waste-war over the mid term. Disrupting the tempo of the average (predictable small format opening sequences) might be a strategy worth exploring. With this is mind, I've been sampling this list over the last couple days.

Candel x4 (because candels win games)
Map x3
Top x3

Em
Koz
Ula
Titan x4

Exploration x4
Crop x4

Cloud x4
Glimmer x4
Vesuva x4

Forest x5
Eye
bog
chasm
tabernacle
karakas
maze x2
Wasteland x4

ancient stirrings x4
Animists awakening x3

So you are running 5 lands that produce 0 mana and 4 lands you want to sacrifice to destroy an opponent's land. In a deck that wants as much mana as possible I'm not sure exactly how great that plan could be. Possible I'm not giving it enough credit but seems like you want access to the top of your deck to ensure you take full advantage of exploration in a build like this. Even something like horn of greed so you can power through the deck to ensure while your sacrificing lands so you can get wasteland and sacrifice it that you are still able to ramp up in the end and have an end game. Neat idea, just seems greedy to want to wasteland an opponent and leave your opponent with the ability to return the favor without something like pithing needle to help protect you.

I think running 1 or 2 waste as a crop rotation target vs infect might be better so we can proactive kill an inkmoth nexus or something along those lines may be better suited for what you want to achieve

[maCHOOga]

I still have knight on my radar, just experimenting with other options.

Playing a modified version of Rock's GW build to another mediocre X-3 finish yet again. Turns out if I would have won the final round I would have finished 17th for nothing anyway. Here is what I tried out.

*~* Maindeck *~*
+ 1 Thespian Stage, Dark Depths and Tabernacle
-1 Glacial Chasm, Ugin the Spirit Dragon, Sylvan Library
*~* Sideboard *~*
-1 Surgical Extraction, Melira
+1 Glacial Chasm, Dawnstrider

- I really wanted to play the sylvan library but I just couldn't figure out how to squeeze it in.
- Opted for dawnstrider over melira as it has more broader applications.

Card's I wasn't impressed by:
- Veteran Explorer
Card's I was impressed by:
- Tabernacle, Thespian Stage, Sideboard hatebears

Losses on the day:
Miracles - I voltron'ed up a dryad arbor into a 4/4 amongst a monastery mentor and swung with it tandem to marit liege (swingin into a clique). I was at 18, my opponent had to hit land, cmc 1 spells x4 to kill me, he did.
BUG delver - Mulligans and Hymn's both games. I proceed to draw all the high drops.
Infect - I resolve a gsz for dawnstrider. I proceeded to die in the 1 turn that it was summoning sick. My opponent did have a submerge, so even if it was Melira, I would have still died.

I also had multiple games where I played veteran explorer and drew 2/3 or 3/3 of the basic forests. That card felt very underwhelming without a way to sacrifice it for value. For the most part it felts like a green tormented soul.

I'm going to stay on GW for a little while. It felt awesome to 2-0 TES, where I would have normally died. Really looking forward to trying the following cards: Knight of the Reliquary, Deathrite & Enlightened Tutor.

[Rock Lee]

Playing a modified version of Rock's GW build to another mediocre X-3 finish yet again. Turns out if I would have won the final round I would have finished 17th for nothing anyway. Here is what I tried out.

*~* Maindeck *~*
+ 1 Thespian Stage, Dark Depths and Tabernacle
-1 Glacial Chasm, Ugin the Spirit Dragon, Sylvan Library
*~* Sideboard *~*
-1 Surgical Extraction, Melira
+1 Glacial Chasm, Dawnstrider

- I really wanted to play the sylvan library but I just couldn't figure out how to squeeze it in.
- Opted for dawnstrider over melira as it has more broader applications.

Card's I wasn't impressed by:
- Veteran Explorer
Card's I was impressed by:
- Tabernacle, Thespian Stage, Sideboard hatebears

Losses on the day:
Miracles - I voltron'ed up a dryad arbor into a 4/4 amongst a monastery mentor and swung with it tandem to marit liege (swingin into a clique). I was at 18, my opponent had to hit land, cmc 1 spells x4 to kill me, he did.
BUG delver - Mulligans and Hymn's both games. I proceed to draw all the high drops.
Infect - I resolve a gsz for dawnstrider. I proceeded to die in the 1 turn that it was summoning sick. My opponent did have a submerge, so even if it was Melira, I would have still died.

I also had multiple games where I played veteran explorer and drew 2/3 or 3/3 of the basic forests. That card felt very underwhelming without a way to sacrifice it for value. For the most part it felts like a green tormented soul.

I'm going to stay on GW for a little while. It felt awesome to 2-0 TES, where I would have normally died. Really looking forward to trying the following cards: Knight of the Reliquary, Deathrite & Enlightened Tutor.

The Melira is a bad solution to a rough problem. I think something more direct like stp, Dismember, or Gut Shot are better bets. Even spellskite is a better plan than melira, just none of these are gsz'able. Moment's Peace comes to mind as a decent option.

Veteran Explorer is there specifically do deal with Bug/pyromancer based strategies, while not caring about removal. The card could fit multiple places.

Sylvan Library is good game one, but core game 2/3. I am actively looking for ways to fit a 2nd and possibly 3rd one in. In the face of null rod, and most decks taking out removal for it, or even better, having to side in removal for a 1-2 of, this card shines hard.

[Ponders]

So you are running 5 lands that produce 0 mana and 4 lands you want to sacrifice to destroy an opponent's land. In a deck that wants as much mana as possible I'm not sure exactly how great that plan could be. Possible I'm not giving it enough credit but seems like you want access to the top of your deck to ensure you take full advantage of exploration in a build like this. Even something like horn of greed so you can power through the deck to ensure while your sacrificing lands so you can get wasteland and sacrifice it that you are still able to ramp up in the end and have an end game. Neat idea, just seems greedy to want to wasteland an opponent and leave your opponent with the ability to return the favor without something like pithing needle to help protect you.

I think running 1 or 2 waste as a crop rotation target vs infect might be better so we can proactive kill an inkmoth nexus or something along those lines may be better suited for what you want to achieve

In the limited testing ive done so far, I was surprised at the number of times I successfully wasted a t1 land in a delver deck that left the
opponent stranded for the next 4 turns or
so. Maybe this is rare, or maybe a consequence of playing against a deck that only runs 18 lands. It could depend on the hand drwn. I certainly see your point, and didnt consider inkmoth but rishadan port, cradle worked out well. The next thought was using animist to make up the difference in t3 or 4, with the extra candel, crop, and the full 12 posts.

[mykatdied]

In the limited testing ive done so far, I was surprised at the number of times I successfully wasted a t1 land in a delver deck that left the
opponent stranded for the next 4 turns or
so. Maybe this is rare, or maybe a consequence of playing against a deck that only runs 18 lands. It could depend on the hand drwn. I certainly see your point, and didnt consider inkmoth but rishadan port, cradle worked out well. The next thought was using animist to make up the difference in t3 or 4, with the extra candel, crop, and the full 12 posts.

It is still certainly interesting. I could consider a 1 or 2 of between the main and sideboard similar to what infect does in the crop rotation builds. Keep me updated on the testing

[TheBoozeCube]

In the limited testing ive done so far, I was surprised at the number of times I successfully wasted a t1 land in a delver deck that left the
opponent stranded for the next 4 turns or
so. Maybe this is rare, or maybe a consequence of playing against a deck that only runs 18 lands. It could depend on the hand drwn. I certainly see your point, and didnt consider inkmoth but rishadan port, cradle worked out well. The next thought was using animist to make up the difference in t3 or 4, with the extra candel, crop, and the full 12 posts.

I used to play 2x Wasteland a few years ago. Yes, you could occasionally steal games. On the whole, however, I found that the tempo you lost in most games just wasn't worth the precious slots and land drops. And that was in a build running 4x Exploration and 1-2x Crucible.

If you want to screw Delver on mana, Tabernacle is already quite effective.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MechTactical]

In the limited testing ive done so far, I was surprised at the number of times I successfully wasted a t1 land in a delver deck that left the
opponent stranded for the next 4 turns or
so. Maybe this is rare, or maybe a consequence of playing against a deck that only runs 18 lands. It could depend on the hand drwn. I certainly see your point, and didnt consider inkmoth but rishadan port, cradle worked out well. The next thought was using animist to make up the difference in t3 or 4, with the extra candel, crop, and the full 12 posts.

And if you want to waste lands use stifle or trickbind like the rest of us :wink:

[mykatdied]

My issue with thinking wasteland is often going to give you games like that is because I play death and taxes and it rarely forces a loss. Not to mention if we are running needle for wasteland then there is the opportunity that they counter the crop rotate or stifle the wasteland and then just waste us back with nothing we can do about it aside from sitting back down 2 land.

[phazonmutant]

I tried Rock Lee's GW list from a page ago at the CK 1k. I've never played 12post before so I definitely could have won some games I lost, but the deck is fun! Some choices in that build really don't make sense to me though.

Kazandu Refuge? Like...I have read the card, but why is gaining life better than Show and Tell or Explore, etc? I never drew it and always cut it. It was also embarrassing against Infect, where Moment's Peace would have been sweet (but still not enough).
The hatebears seem like a solid plan, but no Brainstorm seems crazy. I often had fat monsters clogging my hand. How sketchy is the Bant manabase?
Pithing Needle was the best card in the deck given what I faced. There were Wastelands, Inkmoth Nexii, Thespian's Stages, and all had ways to kill Needle so duplicates were good.
Glacial Chasm seems bad without a way to dump more lands in play - like Explore.
I often found myself just wishing for a way to go broken. Getting at least 4 lands in play over 4 turns to play Primeval Titan or Ugin is not broken considering you're not interacting before that. I really wanted Show and Tell or Candel.
Oracle died without getting value all 4 times I had it in play. Exploration isn't Green Sun-able, but it seems much better.


I was building in a hurry and couldn't find my 4th Top, so I just jammed a second Sylvan in its place. Except for the game where I drew the second Sylvan library with no green source (and then died turn 3; also see: Brainstorm), it was phenomenal to have two. It got blown up once and I was able to drop a second. With the amount of lifegain this deck has, Sylvan is seriously good, I would play two again for sure. If you're in a position to wrath with Ugin, you've probably already won the game; who cares about killing Library?

[Ponders]

And if you want to waste lands use stifle or trickbind like the rest of us :wink:

I think I suggested stifle before anyone else, you can go back and check it. Unfortunately, the new shardless meta hasn't been favorable to the UG build, and I've taken another look at mono green. The use of wasteland is more of an issue of trying to build around, rather than attempt to play around the most powerful cards in a warped format. I just don't know if sequencing can make up for it in this deck. MUD would seem to be the model here, but has mostly fallen out of late.

[Ponders]

.

[maCHOOga]

Kazandu Refuge? Like...I have read the card, but why is gaining life better than Show and Tell or Explore, etc? I never drew it and always cut it. It was also embarrassing against Infect, where Moment's Peace would have been sweet (but still not enough).
The hatebears seem like a solid plan, but no Brainstorm seems crazy. I often had fat monsters clogging my hand. How sketchy is the Bant manabase?
Pithing Needle was the best card in the deck given what I faced. There were Wastelands, Inkmoth Nexii, Thespian's Stages, and all had ways to kill Needle so duplicates were good.
Glacial Chasm seems bad without a way to dump more lands in play - like Explore.
I often found myself just wishing for a way to go broken. Getting at least 4 lands in play over 4 turns to play Primeval Titan or Ugin is not broken considering you're not interacting before that. I really wanted Show and Tell or Candel.
Oracle died without getting value all 4 times I had it in play. Exploration isn't Green Sun-able, but it seems much better.
[/LIST]

I was building in a hurry and couldn't find my 4th Top, so I just jammed a second Sylvan in its place. Except for the game where I drew the second Sylvan library with no green source (and then died turn 3; also see: Brainstorm), it was phenomenal to have two. It got blown up once and I was able to drop a second. With the amount of lifegain this deck has, Sylvan is seriously good, I would play two again for sure. If you're in a position to wrath with Ugin, you've probably already won the game; who cares about killing Library?

I played a 98% similar deck this weekend as well.

Kazandu Refuge there's some matches where is seems crazy but a lot where it's cuttable/underwhelming. I've already cut them!
The bant manabase is do-able, but it's one of the hardest to play, because it's basically 4 colors, <> is a color these days right?
Pithing need is usually awesome, there are certain decks where is does nothing through.
Glacial chasm is basically the "oh $&|%" card, you never really want to draw it. (Which makes a brainstorm build shine). It's there to fetch off of crop rotation or primeval titan. It purpose is to prevent you from taking 16+ from a price of progress or getting roflstomped by elves. Also remember they can activate deathrites with it in play.
You want to make sure before you play oracle that you have your deck either A.) stacked with top or B.) have a land drop. After it resolves, the first thing you want to do is play that land so your opponent doesn't have a chance to respond.


I do miss show and tells, I was contemplating trying either Eureka or Nature Order. Each has it's upsides and downsides.

[Drixx]

Best wishes you guys some candels under tree and no mulligans to new year !!

[Morden]

Hi everyone guys....recently I played against a lot of BUG decks....maybe it's me, maybe I forgot how to play, but it seems to me that this deck is unbeatable g1. It has a response for EACH card I have. Wasteland? ok, needle->decay. ok, trickbind->discarded with duress/hymn. Show and tell? Pierced/forced. And if S&T resolves, liliana sacs the big cow. If it starts with duress/hymn game is basically lost, without a draw engine it's hard to recover.
But also g2....in my sideboard I don't have a card that is an autowin against BUG. I want to avoid leyline of sanctity or obstinate baloth. The first one could be useful also against other decks, but I don't want to mulligan just to see it....the second one is useful only against bug; I'd like a sideboard that is the most optimized possible. Ugin is too slow, oblivion stone also and can be decayed.....I don't really find a card that is gold against this matchup. Any advice?
I really like this deck, I don't wanna leave it :(

[mykatdied]

Hi everyone guys....recently I played against a lot of BUG decks....maybe it's me, maybe I forgot how to play, but it seems to me that this deck is unbeatable g1. It has a response for EACH card I have. Wasteland? ok, needle->decay. ok, trickbind->discarded with duress/hymn. Show and tell? Pierced/forced. And if S&T resolves, liliana sacs the big cow. If it starts with duress/hymn game is basically lost, without a draw engine it's hard to recover.
But also g2....in my sideboard I don't have a card that is an autowin against BUG. I want to avoid leyline of sanctity or obstinate baloth. The first one could be useful also against other decks, but I don't want to mulligan just to see it....the second one is useful only against bug; I'd like a sideboard that is the most optimized possible. Ugin is too slow, oblivion stone also and can be decayed.....I don't really find a card that is gold against this matchup. Any advice?
I really like this deck, I don't wanna leave it :(

Sometimes they get really good draws and have the answers sometimes they don't. Overall even dropping a primeval titan off show and tell should get you most of the way there. Ugin is really good against them though. If you resolve it they generally run maybe 1 pulse and the rest of their removal doesn't answer any of our large creatures, then again I run the gw version and generally do ok vs them

[Morden]

Sometimes they get really good draws and have the answers sometimes they don't. Overall even dropping a primeval titan off show and tell should get you most of the way there. Ugin is really good against them though. If you resolve it they generally run maybe 1 pulse and the rest of their removal doesn't answer any of our large creatures, then again I run the gw version and generally do ok vs them

yes, I think gw build is better in this case. Ugin is great against them, like S&T, I only found hard to play them, having so weak responses to counter, discard and wasteland (some of them play surgical g2, so also crop rotation on cloudpost in response is dangeorous). Brainstorm and sensei help a lot, hiding good card in the library, but it was not enough. Maybe I had only bad luck ^^.

[mykatdied]

yes, I think gw build is better in this case. Ugin is great against them, like S&T, I only found hard to play them, having so weak responses to counter, discard and wasteland (some of them play surgical g2, so also crop rotation on cloudpost in response is dangeorous). Brainstorm and sensei help a lot, hiding good card in the library, but it was not enough. Maybe I had only bad luck ^^.

They are the force deck that is the tightest on blue cards so them having force early and often is unlikely when they are trying to hymn you, etc. Granted a mix of a wasteland or 2, plus hymn, plus force and a real threat is a rough start to beat. It's also not extremely common for them to continue to keep up the pace

[TheBoozeCube]

Hi everyone guys....recently I played against a lot of BUG decks....maybe it's me, maybe I forgot how to play, but it seems to me that this deck is unbeatable g1. It has a response for EACH card I have. Wasteland? ok, needle->decay. ok, trickbind->discarded with duress/hymn. Show and tell? Pierced/forced. And if S&T resolves, liliana sacs the big cow. If it starts with duress/hymn game is basically lost, without a draw engine it's hard to recover.
But also g2....in my sideboard I don't have a card that is an autowin against BUG. I want to avoid leyline of sanctity or obstinate baloth. The first one could be useful also against other decks, but I don't want to mulligan just to see it....the second one is useful only against bug; I'd like a sideboard that is the most optimized possible. Ugin is too slow, oblivion stone also and can be decayed.....I don't really find a card that is gold against this matchup. Any advice?
I really like this deck, I don't wanna leave it :(

A C/g build has very strong game against BUG. You have a lot more redundancy built in, so discard is much less effective. You force them to make tough choices between using Wasteland on Posts or on Mazes. Topdecking Ancient Stirrings digs deep enough to put you back in the game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MechTactical]

Hi everyone guys....recently I played against a lot of BUG decks....maybe it's me, maybe I forgot how to play, but it seems to me that this deck is unbeatable g1. It has a response for EACH card I have. Wasteland? ok, needle->decay. ok, trickbind->discarded with duress/hymn. Show and tell? Pierced/forced. And if S&T resolves, liliana sacs the big cow. If it starts with duress/hymn game is basically lost, without a draw engine it's hard to recover.
But also g2....in my sideboard I don't have a card that is an autowin against BUG. I want to avoid leyline of sanctity or obstinate baloth. The first one could be useful also against other decks, but I don't want to mulligan just to see it....the second one is useful only against bug; I'd like a sideboard that is the most optimized possible. Ugin is too slow, oblivion stone also and can be decayed.....I don't really find a card that is gold against this matchup. Any advice?
I really like this deck, I don't wanna leave it :(

I feel your pain brother. I’ve been losing to “Liliana” decks as well. Between thoughtseize, Hymn, Liliana and the occasional 2x waste into vindicate there’s just not enough breathing room to make decisive plays… So I’m trying a build with MB Spell Pierce in place of repeal. I’ve had limited success with it though.

I’ve been playing with EE for removal (with trinket) and I find that it is often not enough to destroy either their 1 cmc, 2 cmc or 0 cmc. Casting and activating the thing off trinket is rare, for example, you need 7 mana to cast and activate for x=2 (4 x<> + UU + G), in this case I could have cast all is dust for 7. Which brings me to trinket, it does some work, but it is clunky and I’m often in a position where I can’t cast the artifact that I’ve fetched anyway, giving my opponent information and the opportunity to discard it from my hand. I guess with the right timing, but sometimes the opponent is just too fast…

I’m really not sure, if EE saved me enough times to include it. What are your feelings regarding EE and what removal are you preferring these days for UG?
How are you beating “Liliana” decks?
What cards are you planning to run with the new kozilek?
I guess that Moment’s peace isn’t a bad choice, since we can get value after we discard it?
Is anyone playing on xmage? If you are, I’ll happily except a mirror challenge :smile:

@Booze
I’d like to run you’re list at some point, but I’m sure as hell not going to buy another three candelabras, so I’ll just try it online for fun.

[Hencules]

My current take on the blue green list has worked out quite well so far. The high threat density of show and tell and dark depths allows me to finish quick games. Brainstorm, Top and zenith help smooth out mediocre hands. Been pretty OK so far.

4 Glimmerpost
4 Windswept Heath
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Vesuva
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Tropical Island
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Thespian’s Stage
4 Cloudpost
1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor

3 Green Sun’s Zenith
3 Show and Tell
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
3 Pithing Needle

4 Primeval Titan
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
2 Platinum Emperion
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

[Morden]

I feel your pain brother. I’ve been losing to “Liliana” decks as well. Between thoughtseize, Hymn, Liliana and the occasional 2x waste into vindicate there’s just not enough breathing room to make decisive plays… So I’m trying a build with MB Spell Pierce in place of repeal. I’ve had limited success with it though.

I’ve been playing with EE for removal (with trinket) and I find that it is often not enough to destroy either their 1 cmc, 2 cmc or 0 cmc. Casting and activating the thing off trinket is rare, for example, you need 7 mana to cast and activate for x=2 (4 x<> + UU + G), in this case I could have cast all is dust for 7. Which brings me to trinket, it does some work, but it is clunky and I’m often in a position where I can’t cast the artifact that I’ve fetched anyway, giving my opponent information and the opportunity to discard it from my hand. I guess with the right timing, but sometimes the opponent is just too fast…

I’m really not sure, if EE saved me enough times to include it. What are your feelings regarding EE and what removal are you preferring these days for UG?
How are you beating “Liliana” decks?
What cards are you planning to run with the new kozilek?
I guess that Moment’s peace isn’t a bad choice, since we can get value after we discard it?
Is anyone playing on xmage? If you are, I’ll happily except a mirror challenge :smile:

@Booze
I’d like to run you’re list at some point, but I’m sure as hell not going to buy another three candelabras, so I’ll just try it online for fun.

I have moment's peace in my sideboard now, but I use it against infect or other decks that don't hit graveyard. Moment's peace against DTS loses a lot of its power....

[Zotmaster]

If anyone's interested, I will be streaming matches in the Cockatrice tournament I'm in. Set sail for fail! I don't usually stream so we'll see how this goes.

http://www.twitch.tv/zotmaster

EDIT: Round 1, 1-1 Draw versus Infect. If I had had one more turn I could have both decked and killed him with Nulamog. Unfortunately, we ran out of extra turns. A shame.

Round 2, Forfeit win over Death & Taxes after opponent DC'd. The road to 6-0-1 is real!

Round 3, 2-1 over Storm. Opponent accidentally played 2 lands and we both missed it, but it didn't matter as I had enough answers.

Round 4, 2-1 over Miracles. Derped hard Game 2, had a win and threw it away. Game 3, he bottomed an Ugin with Clique...drawing me another Ugin, who went all the way.

Round 5, 0-2 loss to Lands. Combo ate my face when he had Wasteland backup. One of the unfortunate parts of mono-green.

Round 6, 2-0 over iPainter. Absolutely no pressure from him whatsoever. Hard cast Ugin Game 1 under 3 moon effects, and Game 2 he also had no pressure, enabling me to take care of his Blood Moon at my leisure.

Round 7, Free win! I got paired down, and my opponent either thought, or knew, he wouldn't top 8 and gave me a freebie. Not gonna complain. Now we'll see if I crack the Top 8. I'll post my decklist when it's over.

Snuck right in at #8, bitches! Woot!

Round 8, 2-1 over Aggro Loam with Wishes and stuff. Interesting deck, but ultimately was just slow enough for me to beat him.

Round 9, Top 4, 0-2 loss to Omni. Punted pretty badly Game 2 in that I could have paid for a Spell Pierce, but he said he had another in hand so I would have still lost regardless. Still, I regret missing the play. Top 4 not bad though! I'll post a list later.

Here's the list:

ARTIFACT:
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top

CREATURE:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

INSTANT:
4 Crop Rotation

LAND:
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
6 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
2 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Vesuva
1 Windswept Heath

PLANESWALKER:
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

SORCERY:
4 Ancient Stirrings

SIDEBOARD:
2 Dismember
3 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Surgical Extraction

I diversified the fetches just for those corner case Pithing Needle problems. Really, any three green fetches is fine if you only have, say, Misty.

I sideboard pretty organically, but I sort of remember how I boarded. In every single matchup, I brought in at least one Grip since most board-ins are artifacts or enchantments, and also to save me from the unexpected. Since most of the stuff in the sideboard was colored, I usually cut at least an Ancient Stirrings or two, often a Map or two, and the occasional Titan. Bog came out when graveyards didn't matter, Cavern came out when counterspells didn't matter, Tabernacle and Maze came out when creatures didn't matter. I kept Tabernacle in against Storm because in the first game he cast Empty the Warrens.

Against Infect I brought in Spheres, Grips and Dismembers.
Against DnT I brought in Grips and Dismembers.
Against Storm I brought in Spheres, one Grip, Surgicals and Mindbreaks.
Against Miracles I brought in Grips. I usually board out Crop Rotations against Miracles.
Against Lands it was Grips and Surgicals, and I just got owned anyway.
Against iPainter I brought in Grips and Dismembers.
Against Aggro Loam Whatever I brought in Grips and Dismembers.
Against Omni I brought in Spheres, Grips and Mindbreaks.

[Morden]

good game with painter!!

[Zotmaster]

good game with painter!!

Thanks! Unless they can kill you with bug bites early, they just don't pressure enough...especially since I was able to needle Jaya both games.

[Morden]

I think our decks will change a lot thanks to the new set....

http://i68.tinypic.com/2e0obcp.jpg

new sideboard card

[Zotmaster]

I think our decks will change a lot thanks to the new set....

new sideboard card

I'm honestly not sold on the card. Anything is possible and it might be worth trying, but at least my initial reaction is that Dismember is much, much better. Never underestimate the difference between holding up one mana and holding up two, especially when one has to be colorless. For the most part, I like to hold up a green source at all times to make my opponent at least respect the possibility of a Crop Rotation or an activation of Sensei's Divining Top. Especially early on, holding up two mana can actually be somewhat prohibitive...or if you are holding up two, it is probably to activate Expedition Map. More importantly, Dismember pretty much guarantees any creature we'd ever care about, ever, stays dead and out of our lives forever with perhaps the singular exception of Mirran Crusader. The 4 life (let's face it, you might use Bojuka Bog as a black source once or twice in your time) spent to cast Dismember is usually not important because whatever you're killing will probably save you more life in the long run.

I think +3/-3 at 1C is asking a little too much.

[mykatdied]

I think our decks will change a lot thanks to the new set....

http://i68.tinypic.com/2e0obcp.jpg

new sideboard card

My fiance plays mud post, her and I are very excited for this card. It gives an early answer to a delver, a mentor or a young pyromancer all of which can go the distance in short order. At least with the new card the aggressive tempo decks aren't forcing us to pay 4 Life which can in the end really matter if we are low on life or in the beginning a daze/force doesn't essentially 2 for 1 us. I'm referring to not only are we losing our spell but taking an entire turn off their clock. It seems perfectly fine to me. I would run it if I felt like I needed the early answer for aggro, or wanted to make a Kozilek hit for 15 instead of 12.

[Zotmaster]

Did some more streaming today, playing the decklist I linked above. Went 5-1 in my six matches, beating 4C Delver, Burn, Death and Taxes, Esper Mentor, and Lands(!). My single loss...was to U/G 12-Post, in what was easily one of the craziest, most entertaining matches I've ever played. The Lands matchup was won mostly on double Pithing Needle Game 1 and what I think were some pretty questionable keeps by him. Regardless, I'm not going to complain. The list I posted honestly feels very solid. The sideboard can probably be tweaked slightly based on meta, and it still has bad Game 1 matchups against things like Omni and Storm, but it is solid against some of the fair decks that U/G doesn't handle quite as well. I won't mercilessly whore my stream on here, especially since I don't know exactly how often I'm going to stream.

But if you ever want to watch, and maybe learn a bit - or laugh at misplays - check me out at http://www.twitch.tv/zotmaster . Hope to see you there and hope to continue developing and having fun with the deck!

[Morden]

All these new cards deserve a lot of testing.....also this:

http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/kozileksreturn.jpg

makes me want to test splash with red, with bonfire of the damned, like rock's old list.

[Fatal]

Kozilek Return is probably much better then new Dismember, first and therefore new "Dismember is only "-3/-3" which mean id doesn't kill goyfs most the time, (even without creature most tempo decks can easy make goyf 3/4 - sorcery, instant, land) for sure it's best actually answer against delver without paying life dismember hurts a lot specially vs Grixs or RUG which have bolts as reach factor.

I would took analysis with Kozilek Return as probably worth splash card, but after few lists I still concident that B/G splash is still best removal (not hate vs combo !) configuration. Deeds and Decay cover all important threads from current meta, which G/R can't answer preboard (enchantments and artifacts, for example MD blood Moon or Back to Basics, which happens in Merfolks (surprise ==') can be very nasty, similar to fast tempo equipment. Abrupt Decay answers Delver best since it's uncounterable, same to each other painful cards like mention upper. Black also gives best answer to Monastery Mentor - Dread of Night, but with Pernicious Deed MD it's probably not worth, PD cover those pesky tokens with Mentor as whole.

Eventually problem is with Combo - like always to B/G decks, I splash a little white for Gaddock to hardcast (and under 4 GSZ), but even with 6 discards it's still not best MU which I can face. I added additional Sphere or Resistance and 2 Memoricede (mostly for Sneak but still useful vs Storm). I found that most important is not to die before turn 3, if you miss early discard it's mostly game since Storm player will just discard yours or keep hand with bounce/removal for your turn 3 Gaddock which ended brainstorm -> kill.

Anyway G/R doesn't give more answers vs fast combo, Pyroblast helps to stops assamble combo, but doesn't stop combo itself which mean you will be just dead turn 2-3. I think G/b gives more angles to consider like discard + hatebears, instead of Hatebears and Pyroblasts..

[Morden]

yes, basically my idea at the moment is to use kozilek's return if you splash with red, and keep spatial contortion for classic UG build.
Some notes about kozilek's return:
-it's very hard to kill a mentor with it hardcasting it, since our opponent needs only a spell to make the mentor a 3/3. With spatial he needs 2 spells.....
-goyf: a build with a goyf has also DTS 95% of the time, so using kozilek's return from the graveyard could be problematic.

I thought a lot about BG build, but here is my fear: colorless mana is .....a color. Having 4 cloudpost/4 glimmer/2 vesuva takes a lot of slots and reduces the consistency with colored spells. Abrupt decay and pernicious deed need both one green and one black mana. what's your classical list and how do you manage this lack of consistency?

[Zotmaster]

I thought a lot about BG build, but here is my fear: colorless mana is .....a color. Having 4 cloudpost/4 glimmer/2 vesuva takes a lot of slots and reduces the consistency with colored spells. Abrupt decay and pernicious deed need both one green and one black mana. what's your classical list and how do you manage this lack of consistency?

Having black anywhere in your list at all probably absolutely necessitates Deathrite Shaman. I can't speak for Fatal, but a few people have tried splashing black here in the past:

beez: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24848-Deck-Turbo-Eldrazi/page159&p=868267#post868267
winglerw28: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24848-Deck-Turbo-Eldrazi&p=865823#post865823
Another modification of the above from wingler: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24848-Deck-Turbo-Eldrazi&p=866048#post866048

As far as Kozilek's Return goes, it might actually be good enough to make the cut, at least as a sideboard card. An interesting thought is that it's possible it doesn't actually have to go into a RUG list: Rock Lee experimented with an R/G "Nic Fit" style list in the past, and perhaps there could be some redundancy there. My guess is if it is playable, the red splash probably has to be pretty light: otherwise it probably would make more sense to just run Volcanic Fallout to guarantee it resolves. Another thought is that perhaps it could be run alongside Sulfur Elemental, in which case it probably would be a lot more possible to wipe out Monastery Mentor and his little army of dorks: even taking an extra point from the Mentor every turn is preferable to having an ever-growing army of idiots who also get bigger.

[Rock Lee]

Another Tuesday, another undefeated weekly magic with G/w Post. List is as follows:

// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
3 [ME] Forest (2)
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
2 [U] Savannah

// Creatures
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 [BNG] Courser of Kruphix
2 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya

// Spells
2 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [RTR] Pithing Needle
2 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
2 [LG] Sylvan Library
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 [BFZ] Retreat to Kazandu

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [MMA] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [IA] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 [M15] Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 [DK] Maze of Ith

I could see running x2 moment's peace over the Retreat to Kazandu's. If you want to squeeze in Knight of the Reliquary, drop one courser, and x2 retreat/moment's peace.

[Morden]

As far as Kozilek's Return goes, it might actually be good enough to make the cut, at least as a sideboard card. An interesting thought is that it's possible it doesn't actually have to go into a RUG list: Rock Lee experimented with an R/G "Nic Fit" style list in the past, and perhaps there could be some redundancy there. My guess is if it is playable, the red splash probably has to be pretty light: otherwise it probably would make more sense to just run Volcanic Fallout to guarantee it resolves. Another thought is that perhaps it could be run alongside Sulfur Elemental, in which case it probably would be a lot more possible to wipe out Monastery Mentor and his little army of dorks: even taking an extra point from the Mentor every turn is preferable to having an ever-growing army of idiots who also get bigger.

of course, red brings a lot of nice cards into the list..... sulfur against miracle of course, volcanic fallout is also nice...we'll see....I'm also waiting january ban list: if for some reason they ban SDT (I don't know why they shoud do this, but this card is always there when people talk about ban :laugh:) I will surely remove the white terminus splash to go into red.

[Brendelton]

Question, Rock Lee, how do you like Courser? I am thinking of including 1 of him in the mono green build for SCG Cincinnati. Also I have been playing with Void Winnower ("you can't even") and as far as I can tell when he hits the table it tends to make most people cry and scoop. I have not lost a game yet when resolving a Void Winnower and I lose a ton of games. :tongue:

[fluuu]

Your posts are all 3-4 words long, hoping for expansive or helpful insight from people who put in more work than your shallow comment. If you elaborate I'll be glad to inform you of this decks combo matchups.

Otherwise, troll elsewhere, this thread has plenty already.

Ok, How do u beat combo decks like ANT when ur first game it's almost a bye vs them and they can combo u in first-2nd turn in nexts games?

I'll be happy if u respond to me.

[Zotmaster]

Ok, How do u beat combo decks like ANT when ur first game it's almost a bye vs them and they can combo u in first-2nd turn in nexts games?

I'll be happy if u respond to me.

I know you didn't ask me directly but I can help answer that question. Part of it depends on what color or colors you are running. The basic way you battle Storm is the same: do your best to float answers with Sensei's Divining Top and reveal them when the time is right. Most combo decks that can kill you early utilize the graveyard in some way: the obvious answer here is Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog. Most of the time, yes, it's go to Game 2, but unknown opponents will more often than not spend at least a turn or two sculpting their hand before trying to go off in order to minimize the chance of failure.

You should have various answers in your sideboard. Flusterstorm should be in your list if you run blue. Sphere effects - Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, and Thorn of Amethyst can be there in any configuration. Relic of Progenitus is a helpful, if not flawless, solution. Surgical Extraction can go a long way if you knock out Ritual effects; alternatively, if you hold it until Past in Flames is cast, you can knock out a Tutor effect with it. Mindbreak Trap stops them cold. Even Krosan Grip has a sneaky use to it: if an opponent tries to cast more than one Lion's Eye Diamond, you can destroy the first in response to the second, which essentially is a Mana Leak. Trickbind stops the Storm copies if you run it.

The key in all of this is to mulligan aggressively until you have at least an answer or two in your hand. An early Top works wonders to help you dig for your answers: as stated before, float them on top of your library until needed, as Storm doesn't really have a way to interact with that. Yes, sometimes you get killed on Turn 1: that's kind of a "nut draw", and pretty much every deck in Legacy wins if they nut draw: that's why we call it that.

[Fatal]

yes, basically my idea at the moment is to use kozilek's return if you splash with red, and keep spatial contortion for classic UG build.
Some notes about kozilek's return:
-it's very hard to kill a mentor with it hardcasting it, since our opponent needs only a spell to make the mentor a 3/3. With spatial he needs 2 spells.....
-goyf: a build with a goyf has also DTS 95% of the time, so using kozilek's return from the graveyard could be problematic.

I thought a lot about BG build, but here is my fear: colorless mana is .....a color. Having 4 cloudpost/4 glimmer/2 vesuva takes a lot of slots and reduces the consistency with colored spells. Abrupt decay and pernicious deed need both one green and one black mana. what's your classical list and how do you manage this lack of consistency?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28391-Primer-Nic-Feat-8Post - stable mana using also Vet as basics fetcher.

[Rock Lee]

Question, Rock Lee, how do you like Courser? I am thinking of including 1 of him in the mono green build for SCG Cincinnati. Also I have been playing with Void Winnower ("you can't even") and as far as I can tell when he hits the table it tends to make most people cry and scoop. I have not lost a game yet when resolving a Void Winnower and I lose a ton of games. :tongue:

what evens have you been finding you are stopping? almost every single removal spell is odd cmc, and the blocking component seems unused.



Question, Rock Lee, how do you like Courser? I am thinking of including 1 of him in the mono green build for SCG Cincinnati. Also I have been playing with Void Winnower ("you can't even") and as far as I can tell when he hits the table it tends to make most people cry and scoop. I have not lost a game yet when resolving a Void Winnower and I lose a ton of games. :tongue:

I like Courser as a 1-2-of. The card is often a must counter for grindy decks, and edges you through the 3-4 life that you often just barely lose by before stabilizing. Obviously with top the card becomes degenerate, but simply avoiding "dead" draws is also clutch.


I have been testing Yeva, Nature's herald a good bit if you're looking for G/w sass.

[Brendelton]

Void Winnower shuts down Terminus, Tendrils, Empty the Warrens, Painters Servant, abrupt decay, Ancestral visions, Jace, Thalia, Stoneforge, Natural Order, Sneak Attack, Tarmogoyf, All reanimation spells except Reanimate, Primeval Titan in the mirror. If they are using STP you probably are winning anyway. I do see your point though. Thank you for your response it was greatly appreciated.

[Zotmaster]

Color me intrigued.

http://i.imgur.com/s9nL4ZS.png

[TheBoozeCube]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/oathofnissa2.jpg

This seems like it might be interesting for builds that can't play either Ancient Stirrings or Brainstorm. The second ability is pretty irrelevant, but the ETB is almost a Ponder.

[MGB]

Rock, what are your thoughts on how good the new Kozilek is?

[Rock Lee]

Rock, what are your thoughts on how good the new Kozilek is?

I think new kozilek is huge for U/G, and could have a build centric to just itself with heavy colorless focus. I think it is bad in mono green without candelabras, ok in mono green with heavy candelabras, but best in a blue shell with show and tell, tops, and cmc 3 spells to pitch.

Kozilek is what was needed for me to pick up U/G again. Tragically G/w is treating me extremely well, winning multiple weeklies in a row now.

[Morden]

Color me intrigued.

http://i.imgur.com/s9nL4ZS.png

This card could be interesting, but at the moment I don't find any slot for it

[Zotmaster]

This card could be interesting, but at the moment I don't find any slot for it

It likely isn't good enough, at least not in any conventional list. One of my thoughts is that at some point it might be possible to make a mono-blue list, which would offer the luxuries of better protection and card selection. My thought on that card in particular is that it's the most efficient asymmetrical card draw on a permanent ever printed since Book of Rass, which is a 6-drop that costs you two life per card. It's efficient because it doesn't require colored mana to draw cards, which is a huge bonus. At a glance, it also seems to be one of those cards where you may have the luxury of using it to speed-bump some creature and you probably aren't really that upset if an opponent uses some sort of removal spell on it. Perhaps it's not even as good as even Mystic Remora, but it's interesting enough that I wouldn't immediately reject the card out of hand: at the very least, I think it warrants some thought.

[Darkenslight]

By the way, how much can you change the Mono-Black variant that's currently being played in the SCG Modern Open?

SCG's down, but the list seems really interesting for fusing with one of the versions here.

[Zotmaster]

By the way, how much can you change the Mono-Black variant that's currently being played in the SCG Modern Open?

SCG's down, but the list seems really interesting for fusing with one of the versions here.

Do you have a link to a list?

EDIT: Never mind. Found it: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/monoblack_eldrazi_with_jacob_b.html

I'll take a look and I'll comment later.

EDIT 2: Here are my initial thoughts, without brewing or anything, and in no particular order:

- The deck is interesting and, if my friends who play Modern are to be believed, growing in popularity.

- Some replacements seem easy enough. Cloudpost is mostly just a better Eldrazi Temple. Candelabra of Tawnos is mostly a better Mind Stone. You could replace Ghost Quarter with Wasteland. I'm sure Glimmerpost can fit in there somewhere.

- Removal package is interesting, if not amazing. Slaughter Pact is a bit of a scary proposition in Legacy. Dismember is obviously fine. Go for the Throat would probably be replaced by something.

- I don't think the creatures really cut it in Legacy. I get the obvious plan here: exile a bunch of stuff to turn on the Processor abilities. Wasteland Strangler seems particularly bad: it has to make it onto the battlefield for its ability to actually work, its ability isn't really strong enough to kill things you'd really want to kill, and its body isn't really big enough to do much, either. Blight Herder isn't terrible, and Oblivion Sower is all right, but they're just sort of...dudes. I mean, they hit stuff, but without more access to hand and/or board disruption, I'm not sure they represent a good enough clock to actually pressure most Legacy decks.

- Getting early grave hate down notwithstanding, without access to counterspells or Crop Rotation, I'm pretty sure this deck just drops its pants and bends over to most forms of combo. You'd probably have to make discard a huge point of emphasis in this build; especially with the much, much greater access to card selection that Legacy boasts. The two best diggers in Modern are complete crap in Legacy.

EDIT 3: Caught his on-camera game on the re-broadcast on the SCG stream. I'm still not fully convinced the deck will translate well to Legacy, but I might try brewing something on Cockatrice at some point.

[Rock Lee]

EDIT 3: Caught his on-camera game on the re-broadcast on the SCG stream. I'm still not fully convinced the deck will translate well to Legacy, but I might try brewing something on Cockatrice at some point.

I saw the rebroadcast as well. Deck seems hilariously good in Modern (the format where they ban control out of existance 99% of the time), and combo is incredibly weak so all that is left is hyper aggressive aggro and graveyard abuse. Thus this deck running 10 anti aggro cards main, 6 more in the sideboard.

I don't see this deck translating to Legacy as well, since Legacy has an extremely healthy and varied distribution of decks and archetypes (possible exception of grixis delver), but I might start playing this in Modern over Lantern Control, seeing as I own all the expensive cards already.

[Postman]

Played a bigger tournament yesterday, about 170 players and 8 rounds of legacy. Used a more or less traditionally UG build and finished 6 - 2, making 9th place and getting a Snapcaster Mage (friend of mine went 6 - 2 as well, but had the better opp-score and made 8th place^^).

1 Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Primeval Titan
2 Phyrexian Revoker

1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Brainstorm
4 Repeal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
3 Crop Rotation
4 Show and Tell
1 Eureka

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimerpost
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Vesuva

Sideboard:

4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Flusterstorm
2 Swan Song
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
1 Glacial Chasm

MUs:

Round 1: Sneak Attack, 2:0

Round 2: Delver (BUG?), 2:0

Round 3: Delver (Canadian), 2:0

Round 4: Death and Taxes, 1:2

Round 5: Aggro Loam, 2:0

Round 6: Delver (BUG), 0:2

Round 7: Death and Taxes, 2:1

Round 8: R/G Lands, 2:1 (EPIC Match, winning in 3rd extra turn)

Have been lucky to dodge all the Storm MUs (15 players), didn't see a single opponent playing Miracles (23 players) as well.

List felt really smoothy. Maybe I should have taken more mulligans against D&T (close 2nd game, 1 mana away from Ugin due to Port and missing 2nd green source for Titan), Round 6 was close to be unwinable (Game 1 opponent had triple Wasteland plus 2 Goyfs...).

Managed to get into the prizes the last two minor events as well, so I will work on the UG build.

Eureka is my personal flex-slot, and I'm still not happy with this choice (didn't resolve a single time, got discarded once or twice). Tried Wurmcoil Engine, but it's too clunky and has no ETB effect :-/ I guess I will return to 3 Eldrazi as soon as Kozilek 2.0 is out (maybe even Endbringer...?, in the meanwhile I might try Karn, or a 2nd Ugin. Suggestions are welcome!

[Morden]

Eureka is my personal flex-slot, and I'm still not happy with this choice (didn't resolve a single time, got discarded once or twice). Tried Wurmcoil Engine, but it's too clunky and has no ETB effect :-/ I guess I will return to 3 Eldrazi as soon as Kozilek 2.0 is out (maybe even Endbringer...?, in the meanwhile I might try Karn, or a 2nd Ugin. Suggestions are welcome!

Don't you like Platinum Emperion? It helps A LOT against burn and storm, two of the worst matchup G1.
I will try Endbringer me too, maybe 1 in sideboard to change Emperion when it's less efficient.

[Morden]

this is very funny with titan, and maybe can substitute candelabra in a low budget GW build. (it's colorless, so great with ancient stirring)

http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/eldrazidisplacer.jpg

[Postman]

Don't you like Platinum Emperion? It helps A LOT against burn and storm, two of the worst matchup G1.
I will try Endbringer me too, maybe 1 in sideboard to change Emperion when it's less efficient.
I played it about one year ago and it didn't convince me completely. Usually I try to establish some kind of "lock" like sphere or want a counter in hand / floating before I cast S&T. Titan and Emrakul usually win the game very quickly and both are lethal for burn as well. Maybe it's okay for sideboard, will give it a try again ;-)

[Chaam]

Hey guys, I've never player 12-post before but I am thinking of picking up the deck. I was thinking of trying a mono blue version that plays like mono u tron in modern. I deck that just tempos people out/delays turn after turn before winning with an eldrazi. I have trops and can play the standard UG version.

What do you guys think of this list? Please let me know if I this has been tried and failed or if I am completely off base here. Thanks.

Instant (20)
4x Brainstorm
4x Condescend
4x Repeal
4x Into the Roil
4x Force of Will

Artifact (12)
4x Pithing Needle
4x Expedition Map
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Creature (3)
1x Emmy
1x New Ulamog
1x New Kozilek

Lands (25)
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
2x Vesuva
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
5x Island
1x Karakas
1x Eye of Ugin

Sideboard (15)
4x Flusterstorm
4x Relic of Progenitus
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Propaganda
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Dismember

[Rock Lee]

this is very funny with titan, and maybe can substitute candelabra in a low budget GW build. (it's colorless, so great with ancient stirring)

http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/eldrazidisplacer.jpg

to hell with titan, this resets delvers. and under eye of ugin casts for 1. Not to also mention it fog's one creature forever per 3 mana and kills tokens (monk/elementals)

I remember looking at momentary blink effects back when I was testing Ghostly flicker and Ruin Ghost, but this takes the cake by far.

[Ancestral]

to hell with titan, this resets delvers. and under eye of ugin casts for 1. Not to also mention it fog's one creature forever per 3 mana and kills tokens (monk/elementals)

I remember looking at momentary blink effects back when I was testing Ghostly flicker and Ruin Ghost, but this takes the cake by far.

so new kozilek seems very good in UG build, this seems great in GW build...i´m also a bti confused wich one i should pick up for practice!

I like the show and tell as a safe second plan and its a very huge bullet that people have to dodge, plus brainstorm...well its brainstorm cmon !! but GW build has some awesome spots too ... i guess i need to test both versions a lot :/

Any comments on what you guys gonna play for upcoming months? and why?

[Morden]

to hell with titan, this resets delvers. and under eye of ugin casts for 1. Not to also mention it fog's one creature forever per 3 mana and kills tokens (monk/elementals)

I remember looking at momentary blink effects back when I was testing Ghostly flicker and Ruin Ghost, but this takes the cake by far.

well, it does a lot of things indeed, I think it will be maindeck'd in every Wx build.

[Morden]

Hey guys, I've never player 12-post before but I am thinking of picking up the deck. I was thinking of trying a mono blue version that plays like mono u tron in modern. I deck that just tempos people out/delays turn after turn before winning with an eldrazi. I have trops and can play the standard UG version.

What do you guys think of this list? Please let me know if I this has been tried and failed or if I am completely off base here. Thanks.

Instant (20)
4x Brainstorm
4x Condescend
4x Repeal
4x Into the Roil
4x Force of Will

Artifact (12)
4x Pithing Needle
4x Expedition Map
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Creature (3)
1x Emmy
1x New Ulamog
1x New Kozilek

Lands (25)
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
2x Vesuva
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
5x Island
1x Karakas
1x Eye of Ugin

Sideboard (15)
4x Flusterstorm
4x Relic of Progenitus
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Propaganda
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Dismember

monoU could be interesting with new kozi, but I suggest this:
1) add some card advantage cards, like ponder. Since you are gonna discard with kozi, you need to have a draw engine.
2) add show and tell, maybe not 4, it depends how many big cows you want in your list
3) be careful to your mana curve: you should have some cmc1 cards, some cmc2 and a few cmc3, to optimize your kozi.

[Morden]

so new kozilek seems very good in UG build, this seems great in GW build...i´m also a bti confused wich one i should pick up for practice!

I like the show and tell as a safe second plan and its a very huge bullet that people have to dodge, plus brainstorm...well its brainstorm cmon !! but GW build has some awesome spots too ... i guess i need to test both versions a lot :/

Any comments on what you guys gonna play for upcoming months? and why?

I will wait the full spoiler and the ban list.....at the moment I'm undecided between:
-uwg with 2 terminus, some repeal, maybe some spatial contortion, maybe the new displacer
-urg with 2/3 kozilek's return (maybe 1 bonfire), like modern tron style. No spatial contortion of course, still some repeal because it does a lot of trick.
If SDT will be banned of course I'll go throught the URG way with no bonfire.
If SDT will not be banned.....probably I will try the red way the same XD.

[Zotmaster]

to hell with titan, this resets delvers. and under eye of ugin casts for 1. Not to also mention it fog's one creature forever per 3 mana and kills tokens (monk/elementals)

I remember looking at momentary blink effects back when I was testing Ghostly flicker and Ruin Ghost, but this takes the cake by far.

Literally the only thing you can say bad about that little dude is that he dies to Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay. I liked Prophet of Distortion, but Displacer screams "abuse me"!

[TheBoozeCube]

Hey guys, I've never player 12-post before but I am thinking of picking up the deck. I was thinking of trying a mono blue version that plays like mono u tron in modern. I deck that just tempos people out/delays turn after turn before winning with an eldrazi. I have trops and can play the standard UG version.

What do you guys think of this list? Please let me know if I this has been tried and failed or if I am completely off base here. Thanks.

Instant (20)
4x Brainstorm
4x Condescend
4x Repeal
4x Into the Roil
4x Force of Will

Artifact (12)
4x Pithing Needle
4x Expedition Map
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Creature (3)
1x Emmy
1x New Ulamog
1x New Kozilek

Lands (25)
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
2x Vesuva
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
5x Island
1x Karakas
1x Eye of Ugin

Sideboard (15)
4x Flusterstorm
4x Relic of Progenitus
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Propaganda
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Dismember

1) If you're not playing green for Crop Rotation, I think you need a second level of defense vs Wasteland besides Pithing Needle. Perhaps Trickbind or Stifle.

2) Trinket Mage seems good for you.

3) Counterbalance might actually be interesting, at least in the board. You're already running a lot of the same library manipulation that Miracles does.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Zotmaster]

Hey guys, I've never player 12-post before but I am thinking of picking up the deck. I was thinking of trying a mono blue version that plays like mono u tron in modern. I deck that just tempos people out/delays turn after turn before winning with an eldrazi. I have trops and can play the standard UG version.

What do you guys think of this list? Please let me know if I this has been tried and failed or if I am completely off base here. Thanks.

I'm interested. I have all of this in paper except for JTMS. BoozeCube's suggestions are good. I'm wondering if the dig on Condescend makes it worthwhile as an X-counterspell over something like Spell Burst or even Power Sink. Of course, that slot could also be filled by Spell Pierce or ye generic Counterspell. Maybe the dig really is worth it, as well as the draw from Into the Roil: otherwise I think I'd rather have Wipe Away. No Candelabra of Tawnos also worries me, although Rock Lee has made lists that didn't run them.

I've wanted to try a mono-blue list for a long time but was unsure as to what direction I wanted to take with it. If you end up having some success with something like this, let us know. I might try brewing something in mono-blue in the near future.

[Fatal]

New Eldrazi Displacer is a hell good vs R/G Lands, their actually MD/SB can't beat it (unless 2 punishings..).

[MechTactical]

Played a bigger tournament yesterday, about 170 players and 8 rounds of legacy. Used a more or less traditionally UG build and finished 6 - 2, making 9th place and getting a Snapcaster Mage (friend of mine went 6 - 2 as well, but had the better opp-score and made 8th place^^).

1 Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Primeval Titan
2 Phyrexian Revoker

1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Brainstorm
4 Repeal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
3 Crop Rotation
4 Show and Tell
1 Eureka

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimerpost
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Vesuva

Sideboard:

4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Flusterstorm
2 Swan Song
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
1 Glacial Chasm

MUs:

Round 1: Sneak Attack, 2:0

Round 2: Delver (BUG?), 2:0

Round 3: Delver (Canadian), 2:0

Round 4: Death and Taxes, 1:2

Round 5: Aggro Loam, 2:0

Round 6: Delver (BUG), 0:2

Round 7: Death and Taxes, 2:1

Round 8: R/G Lands, 2:1 (EPIC Match, winning in 3rd extra turn)

Have been lucky to dodge all the Storm MUs (15 players), didn't see a single opponent playing Miracles (23 players) as well.

List felt really smoothy. Maybe I should have taken more mulligans against D&T (close 2nd game, 1 mana away from Ugin due to Port and missing 2nd green source for Titan), Round 6 was close to be unwinable (Game 1 opponent had triple Wasteland plus 2 Goyfs...).

Managed to get into the prizes the last two minor events as well, so I will work on the UG build.

Eureka is my personal flex-slot, and I'm still not happy with this choice (didn't resolve a single time, got discarded once or twice). Tried Wurmcoil Engine, but it's too clunky and has no ETB effect :-/ I guess I will return to 3 Eldrazi as soon as Kozilek 2.0 is out (maybe even Endbringer...?, in the meanwhile I might try Karn, or a 2nd Ugin. Suggestions are welcome!

Congrats postman on the finish.

I’m still true to the UG myself. I’ve tried your build online and I’m not sure if glacial should be in the side board. I’ve just lost to elves (with 2 crop rotations in hand), where I would probably have won if glacial was there… Looking at you’re match-ups it was the correct choice, but I’m really not sure if glacial in the side is the way to run the UG. I’m also not sure if running 4 SnT is the correct number in this build, since you are running ugin?

[Hopo]

1) add some card advantage cards, like ponder. Since you are gonna discard with kozi, you need to have a draw engine.
2) add show and tell, maybe not 4, it depends how many big cows you want in your list

Cantrips are not card advantage. You end up with as many cards as you started with them. This should be very basic level knowledge.

Show and Tell with three fatties only is very questionable. Trinket mage is likely the better 3-drop and opens up the possibility of powerful singletons like Candelabra and EE. It also helps in shaving a Needle or two. My take would be to add the remaining Kozileks and play full Show and Tells. Kozilek in your hand is a wasted Kozilek. On the other hand, heavy blue post needs the new Kozilek the least of the bunch because of other tools. Kozilek probably shines more in non-U builds which lack stack interaction. There is some controversy here as S&T is absolutely the fastest way to land Koz. Maybe UG is the way to go with him?

[Morden]

Cantrips are not card advantage. You end up with as many cards as you started with them. This should be very basic level knowledge.

Show and Tell with three fatties only is very questionable. Trinket mage is likely the better 3-drop and opens up the possibility of powerful singletons like Candelabra and EE. It also helps in shaving a Needle or two. My take would be to add the remaining Kozileks and play full Show and Tells. Kozilek in your hand is a wasted Kozilek. On the other hand, heavy blue post needs the new Kozilek the least of the bunch because of other tools. Kozilek probably shines more in non-U builds which lack stack interaction. There is some controversy here as S&T is absolutely the fastest way to land Koz. Maybe UG is the way to go with him?

I know that a cantrip is not really "card advantage", but without cards like Treasure Cruise and Dig through time the only way to not go down with cards in hand are cantrip. And if you are playing a tactic based on discarding cards, I think keeping a full hand is the main objective in this kind of deck.

S&T is, as always, a debated card: maybe you can run also 0 of them, if you wanna play with few creatures. You can insert trinket mage as cmc3 pitch and to quickly find a candelabra, and insert a lot of bounce card to make fast mana bouncing candelabra but mostly protect it against Abrupt Decay. In general I always prefer a backup plan, so I think S&T should be insert in some way in any deck with blue.

[Postman]

Congrats postman on the finish.

I’m still true to the UG myself. I’ve tried your build online and I’m not sure if glacial should be in the side board. I’ve just lost to elves (with 2 crop rotations in hand), where I would probably have won if glacial was there… Looking at you’re match-ups it was the correct choice, but I’m really not sure if glacial in the side is the way to run the UG. I’m also not sure if running 4 SnT is the correct number in this build, since you are running ugin?


Thanks!

Chasm Main/Side is some kind of meta call, I guess. For me it's often a dead card and the MUs I really need it are Elves (as you mentioned), burn, Storm (only game 2 if they go the ETW way^^), sometimes Reanimator.

4 S&T worked fine for me, and I even added a 5th one in Eureka. It's such a powerful card! Saved me a game against Delver thanks to showing Emrakul^^ (Of course it's the last way you want to go!) Right now I have 4 premium targets to show in (Titans), 2 maybe targets (Eldrazi) plus deploying an additional Cloudpost can be like a Timewalk. And "wasting" one into a Force of Will is fine for me, if I can drop Ugin the next turn.

[MechTactical]

Yep good point postman, i moved back to the full set of SnT, gonna run well with kozilek anyways right?

Oh man i just bought a play set of flusters along with pimp glimmers and cloudpost and some other stuff and i still have to buy the new cards from the upcoming set. The fun never stops with this deck hahaha :wink:

Anyone brewed up a sample list with the new kozilek? What are we discarding ? trinkets or what? are we running 1, 2 or 3 copies of him?

Let me know so i can start shopping !

[Postman]

Yep good point postman, i moved back to the full set of SnT, gonna run well with kozilek anyways right?

Oh man i just bought a play set of flusters along with pimp glimmers and cloudpost and some other stuff and i still have to buy the new cards from the upcoming set. The fun never stops with this deck hahaha :wink:

Anyone brewed up a sample list with the new kozilek? What are we discarding ? trinkets or what? are we running 1, 2 or 3 copies of him?

Let me know so i can start shopping !

Yeah, new Kozilek should be tried in the UG build. Haven't really started to think about a new build, but I guess I won't change the whole deck at once. First some testing, and if he is he as good as people want him to be, there will be some sort of fine tuning. 1 copy should be enough, can't remember that I ever played more than one copy of an Eldrazi. After boarding I often have 3 copies of krosan grip in the deck, plus the S&T. Normally this should be enough cmc 3 spells, but let's wait for other players ;-)

[TheBoozeCube]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYEJ00GWYAE5x8X.png

This has some real potential.

Mode 1 hits a lot of relevant creatures. Off the top of my head:
Stoneforge
Unflipped Delver
Deathrite
Bob
Phyrexian Revoker
Metalworker
Painter's Servant
Most goblins
Mangara
Inkmoth*
Blighted Agent*
Glistener Elf*

* - Also, note that since it's colorless, Apostle's Blessing can't save it.


Mode 2 is colorless countermagic for non-blue builds.

Mode 3 makes a surprise blocker vs a Goyf, an EOT attacker vs open Liliana, or a small mana boost to set up the next turn.

I'm very excited to test with this card.

[winglerw28]

I am attending a tournament at the end of this month, so Oath will be legal. Right now I am testing the following list since the meta will very surely include a large amount of Miracles, therefore I need to prepare specifically for the other expected decks (Lands, Death and Taxes, and Storm):



Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Primeval Titan

Other Spells
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sylvan Library
3 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Show and Tell
4 Brainstorm
4 Repeal

Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Windswept Heath
2 Vesuva
3 Tropical Island
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 World Breaker
SB: 2 Moment's Peace
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 2 Thought-Knot Seer
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Krosan Grip



Essentially I'm not going all-in on the new Kozilek, instead using him to refresh the hand occasionally and to shore up game one combo MU's a little bit. Out of the board I'm trying the psuedo-Clique effect that is more castable in Thought-Knot Seer (not dying to Decay or Bolt while still blocking well is relevant!) and an Acidic Slime that exiles and has upside in World Breaker.

[Morden]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYEJ00GWYAE5x8X.png
Mode 3 makes a surprise blocker vs a Goyf, an EOT attacker vs open Liliana, or a small mana boost to set up the next turn.


and also put a creature vs liliana's -2 trigger, saving our titan/eldrazi.
so many beatiful cards in this set!!

[winglerw28]

and also put a creature vs liliana's -2 trigger, saving our titan/eldrazi.
so many beatiful cards in this set!!

Yeah, this set is being very​ kind to 12-Post and Modern Tron.

[Captain Hammer]

Yeah, this set is being very​ kind to 12-Post and Modern Tron.

I have always been interested in modifying this deck to accomidate Chalice of the Void and maybe Trinisphere

A resolved Chalice at 1 or Trinisphere is autowin against a big chunk of the format.

The new guys this set is introducing give us alternative cards to play in place of the 1cc spells the deck currently plays.

Living Wish can replace Expedition Map and its a much more versatile card to boot.

Swapping in Eldarazi Displacer in place of Candelabra of Tawnos.

There's just something beautiful about the idea of locking out my opponent with a Chalice at 1 or a Trinisphere then beating them down with Eldarazi.

[Rock Lee]

Between Warping Wail (finally a Green friendly counterspell that ALSO kills xantid swarm) and spatial contortion (good removal for every non-relic of Progenitus-able creature in the format (perhaps gurmag angler excluding, which is fine), and BOTH of these spells having serious game against infect, one of the last matchups that have been skirting a heavy green focus hate build, I might be completely on the Mono Green /w splash (almost certainly white) train.

Ancient stirrings can now get creatures (devoids), and removal (warping wail and contortion), not to mention you have ways to net advantage out of extra land drops or lifegain via courser + oracle. I might try out the hellbent library of alexandria and light splash just for brainstorm and show and tell. Going bant, but without the terminus or blue removal or trickbinds. Play more midrange, now that we finally have excellent midrange cards.

I see the deck running x4 cavern of souls for sure though, for those prospectors out there.

[TheBoozeCube]

This is what I'm thinking for OGW:

Main Deck (61)

Creatures (4)
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells (28)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Warping Wail
3 Pithing Needle
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
2 All Is Dust
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Lands (29)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Maze of Ith
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
8 Forest

Sideboard (15)
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Trinisphere
3 Krosan Grip
4 Mindbreak Trap

Basically, I'm replacing Exploration with Warping Wail. My reasoning is as follows:

(1) Exploration is a respectable card in game 1, but it typically gets boarded out in all non-combo matchups. It's an absolutely incredible card in the first two turns of the game, but the worst possible topdeck after that. The counter mode on Warping Wail also helps shore up the combo matchup, but in a way that gives us more control than just trying to outrace them like Exploration. So general game 1 utility is probably the same to much better.

(2) Warping Wail gives us a maindeck early-game answer to Phyrexian Revoker, which is often a real problem card because it shuts off our acceleration while providing a clock. This should greatly improve the D&T matchup, as that was the only card besides Wasteland/Port that usually mattered.

(3) The biggest downside to replacing Exploration I see is that it's much worse against Blood Moon decks, like Dragon Stompy or Painter. One of the keys to the matchup, especially pre-board without Grip, has always been to try to land a T1 Exploration so that you can get extra land drops for All Is Dust or Ugin. To make matters worse, Blood Moon actually cuts us off from Warping Wail for Revoker. That said, the matchup was pretty terrible anyway.

[Zotmaster]

Basically, I'm replacing Exploration with Warping Wail. My reasoning is as follows:

(1) Exploration is a respectable card in game 1, but it typically gets boarded out in all non-combo matchups. It's an absolutely incredible card in the first two turns of the game, but the worst possible topdeck after that. The counter mode on Warping Wail also helps shore up the combo matchup, but in a way that gives us more control than just trying to outrace them like Exploration. So general game 1 utility is probably the same to much better.

(2) Warping Wail gives us a maindeck early-game answer to Phyrexian Revoker, which is often a real problem card because it shuts off our acceleration while providing a clock. This should greatly improve the D&T matchup, as that was the only card besides Wasteland/Port that usually mattered.

(3) The biggest downside to replacing Exploration I see is that it's much worse against Blood Moon decks, like Dragon Stompy or Painter. One of the keys to the matchup, especially pre-board without Grip, has always been to try to land a T1 Exploration so that you can get extra land drops for All Is Dust or Ugin. To make matters worse, Blood Moon actually cuts us off from Warping Wail for Revoker. That said, the matchup was pretty terrible anyway.

My list is still pretty similar to yours, but I did away with Exploration a while ago: mostly because, as you said, it's a miserable topdeck. I think Warping Wail is my favorite new card so far, and while I'm sure you already realized this, you didn't even mention that Ancient Stirrings also can help you find it. It can also be another surprise answer to Game 1 Storm since it can stop Infernal Tutor and Dark Petition. Also, Wail will kill Painter's Servant, which in turn provides protection against graveyard hate or Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

I think the new Kozilek may also have a place. Just by adding in Wail, we have options at CMC 2 (although to be fair, it does mean you already had to put Kozilek on the battlefield). Krosan Grip and Dismember also allow countering some scary things like Magus of the Moon, Liliana of the Veil, and Council's Judgment. I think the potential flexibility outweighs the loss of Annihilator 4 and another reshuffle effect.

EDIT: Ad Nauseam is an instant, not a sorcery. Sorry about that.

[TheBoozeCube]

I think the new Kozilek may also have a place. Just by adding in Wail, we have options at CMC 2 (although to be fair, it does mean you already had to put Kozilek on the battlefield). Krosan Grip and Dismember also allow countering some scary things like Magus of the Moon, Liliana of the Veil, and Council's Judgment. I think the potential flexibility outweighs the loss of Annihilator 4 and another reshuffle effect.

Testing may prove me wrong, but I'm just not a huge fan of new Koz unless you can play S&T, and even more so after cutting Explorations. Even with a nut draw, he's not coming down before T3 now (and likely T4), and T3 still requires triple Cloudposts and Candle with no disruption. So I don't consider him reliable to fight either Storm or Blood Moon. At 10 mana, Newlamog is just as good on T3 by taking out their mana, and old Koz still draws you answers like Crop, Trap, Grip, while being far more likely to just end the game if you untap.

Against Blood Moon specifically, new Koz is significantly worse because you can't ever cast him once Blood Moon is resolved. And if you cast an Eldrazi under Blood Moon, you probably won anyway.


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[Morden]

What do you think guys about repeal and trickbind now?
I HAVE to test the new kozilek's return, and I'm making some cut. I want to play 2 kozilek's return.

I have 5 floating slots, used at the moment by 2 repeal,1 trickbind, 2 terminus. Of course kozi's return will replace terminus. I was thinking to remove the trickbind (I already have 3 needles) and add one bonfire of the damned. But I don't know what to do with 2 repeal.... I'd like to try new colorless cards, but spatial contortion probably is useless having 3 swiping card. Warping wail is very charming, but the first effect is so and so if you already play 3 mass removal. Counter a sorcery is good, but I cannot handle a counter war only with 2 warping wail, and with storm I already have 2 emperion. Last effect is not so relevant I think.
I'd try with one repeal and one warping, but does it have any sense to play a singleton of these cards?
Maybe 3 slots for the red cards are too much, bacause kozilek's return has in fact a double impact on the game (on the play and from the graveyard)?
2 warping/2 kozi's return/1 repeal? sounds good.
or 2 repeal/2 kozi's return/1 warping?
Any suggestions?

[Zotmaster]

What do you think guys about repeal and trickbind now?
I HAVE to test the new kozilek's return, and I'm making some cut. I want to play 2 kozilek's return.

I have 5 floating slots, used at the moment by 2 repeal,1 trickbind, 2 terminus. Of course kozi's return will replace terminus. I was thinking to remove the trickbind (I already have 3 needles) and add one bonfire of the damned. But I don't know what to do with 2 repeal.... I'd like to try new colorless cards, but spatial contortion probably is useless having 3 swiping card. Warping wail is very charming, but the first effect is so and so if you already play 3 mass removal. Counter a sorcery is good, but I cannot handle a counter war only with 2 warping wail, and with storm I already have 2 emperion. Last effect is not so relevant I think.
I'd try with one repeal and one warping, but does it have any sense to play a singleton of these cards?
Maybe 3 slots for the red cards are too much, bacause kozilek's return has in fact a double impact on the game (on the play and from the graveyard)?
2 warping/2 kozi's return/1 repeal? sounds good.
or 2 repeal/2 kozi's return/1 warping?
Any suggestions?

Trickbind is the easiest cut of that list. Either you go all-in on the protection, or you should devote your resources to a more comprehensive plan elsewhere. I would make the same argument of Repeal: either make it a key component of your strategy or do something else. Two bounce spells probably doesn't make much of a difference since you can't really count on it being there when you need it. Bonfire of the Damned is probably fine.

I wouldn't sell Warping Wail short. I'm pretty sure the card is bonkers, as every mode is relevant. The exile gets rid of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Deathrite Shaman, Delver of Secrets, pretty much any Elf not named Nettle Sentinel, Xantid Swarm, and probably some others. The counter mode gets rid of tutors, Natural Order, Show and Tell, Maelstrom Pulse, Terminus, reanimation spells, and some others. And lastly, the third mode gives you an extra ramp, a surprise blocker, or a surprise creature to sacrifice to Liliana of the Veil or an attacking Emrakul, the Aeons Torn against a Sneak & Skill player. All on one card.

It's two mana. Ancient Stirrings can find it. Testing may eventually prove it wrong, but I'm not the only one who is pretty sure the card is nuts.

[MGB]

The new Kozilek is insanely good.

[TheBoozeCube]

Testing may eventually prove it wrong, but I'm not the only one who is pretty sure the card is nuts.

I am so excited to play with this card I can barely contain myself.


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[Morden]

Trickbind is the easiest cut of that list. Either you go all-in on the protection, or you should devote your resources to a more comprehensive plan elsewhere. I would make the same argument of Repeal: either make it a key component of your strategy or do something else. Two bounce spells probably doesn't make much of a difference since you can't really count on it being there when you need it. Bonfire of the Damned is probably fine.

I wouldn't sell Warping Wail short. I'm pretty sure the card is bonkers, as every mode is relevant. The exile gets rid of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Deathrite Shaman, Delver of Secrets, pretty much any Elf not named Nettle Sentinel, Xantid Swarm, and probably some others. The counter mode gets rid of tutors, Natural Order, Show and Tell, Maelstrom Pulse, Terminus, reanimation spells, and some others. And lastly, the third mode gives you an extra ramp, a surprise blocker, or a surprise creature to sacrifice to Liliana of the Veil or an attacking Emrakul, the Aeons Torn against a Sneak & Skill player. All on one card.

It's two mana. Ancient Stirrings can find it. Testing may eventually prove it wrong, but I'm not the only one who is pretty sure the card is nuts.

you are right, if you want to do something, do it well. I will go with 3 repeal or 3 warp (plus kozi's return).

[Hencules]

With the inclusion of wail and ancient Stirrings I have started playing spell shrivel. It's colorless, it costs only one blue and it's basically hard counter. So far I'm really pleased by playing it.

[TheBoozeCube]

I'm wondering whether it might be worth playing a 1x Wastes to produce colorless for Warping Wail to kill things like Revoker through a Blood Moon? Otherwise, would you board out Wail vs T1 Blood Moon decks?


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[Hopo]

I'm wondering whether it might be worth playing a 1x Wastes to produce colorless for Warping Wail to kill things like Revoker through a Blood Moon? Otherwise, would you board out Wail vs T1 Blood Moon decks?


I see little reason to keep it in. It is pretty much useless against those decks and your Revoker example relies on finding the single Wastes, which you absolutely shouldn't count on. Revoker likely names Expedition map, maybe Top.

[Zotmaster]

I'm wondering whether it might be worth playing a 1x Wastes to produce colorless for Warping Wail to kill things like Revoker through a Blood Moon? Otherwise, would you board out Wail vs T1 Blood Moon decks?


I see little reason to keep it in. It is pretty much useless against those decks and your Revoker example relies on finding the single Wastes, which you absolutely shouldn't count on. Revoker likely names Expedition map, maybe Top.

I think I'm mostly with Hopo here. It might be a meta call, but in a general sense the scenario you're describing is relatively unlikely, since Stompy-esque decks usually aren't all that popular. Even then, as far as T1 Blood Moon decks are concerned, you're probably much more concerned with the Moon itself or other large creatures than you are the 2/1 that is bug biting you. Especially in both of our builds, getting rid of the Moon enables Maze of Ith and Candelabra of Tawnos to combine to handle the rest. I don't think diluting the deck by running a single Wastes makes a whole lot of sense: we're both going to be boarding in Krosan Grip anyway, and I also run Dismember.

So basically, I think you'd board out Warping Wail against most Stompy decks and count on some combination of Grips, Dismembers, and naturally getting to 7-8 mana anyway to access your board sweepers to handle the rest.

[TheBoozeCube]

I think I'm mostly with Hopo here. It might be a meta call, but in a general sense the scenario you're describing is relatively unlikely, since Stompy-esque decks usually aren't all that popular. Even then, as far as T1 Blood Moon decks are concerned, you're probably much more concerned with the Moon itself or other large creatures than you are the 2/1 that is bug biting you. Especially in both of our builds, getting rid of the Moon enables Maze of Ith and Candelabra of Tawnos to combine to handle the rest. I don't think diluting the deck by running a single Wastes makes a whole lot of sense: we're both going to be boarding in Krosan Grip anyway, and I also run Dismember.

So basically, I think you'd board out Warping Wail against most Stompy decks and count on some combination of Grips, Dismembers, and naturally getting to 7-8 mana anyway to access your board sweepers to handle the rest.

I think you're both probably right. Revoker isn't as much of an issue if Moon is out, since Candles don't do much without nonbasics anyway. I think I just need to accept that Exploration --> Warping Wail will just make this particular matchup worse to make many other matchups better.

It is annoying, as there always seems to be at least 1-2 Stompy players at my LGS, but I haven't seen it or Painter much online lately. Now that I think about it, does anyone know why Painter's dropped off online? I was running into it constantly last year. Not that I mind it being diminished, of course…


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[PirateKing]

It can also be another surprise answer to Game 1 Storm since it can stop Infernal Tutor, Dark Petition or Ad Nauseam.

All the new cards have stirred my interest in this deck, and reading through I wanted to point out that Ad Nauseam is an instant, so don't expect to counter it.

[Zotmaster]

All the new cards have stirred my interest in this deck, and reading through I wanted to point out that Ad Nauseam is an instant, so don't expect to counter it.

Good catch, thank you. Sorry about that.

[Darkenslight]

Good catch, thank you. Sorry about that.

IT does, however, counter Past in Flames, which cuts off a potential win that way.

[maCHOOga]

IT does, however, counter Past in Flames, which cuts off a potential win that way.

More importantly it counters infernal tutor! Ad Neaseum is a 1of in ANT. 95% of the time if you just counter their infernal tutor, you will win. Just float Wail on top of your deck and get them! Of course, it won't save you if they turn 1 you.

[TheBoozeCube]

More importantly it counters infernal tutor! Ad Neaseum is a 1of in ANT. 95% of the time if you just counter their infernal tutor, you will win. Just float Wail on top of your deck and get them! Of course, it won't save you if they turn 1 you.

It also counters Cabal Therapy/Duress/Thoughtseize, so you can protect Crop Rotation or Mindbreak Trap.


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[maCHOOga]

Between Warping Wail (finally a Green friendly counterspell that ALSO kills xantid swarm) and spatial contortion (good removal for every non-relic of Progenitus-able creature in the format (perhaps gurmag angler excluding, which is fine), and BOTH of these spells having serious game against infect, one of the last matchups that have been skirting a heavy green focus hate build, I might be completely on the Mono Green /w splash (almost certainly white) train.


Rock, assuming I'm sticking with the UG "stock" build, do you think warping wail is worth testing maindeck over the pair of flusterstorms? It's a heck of a lot more versatile, but flusterstorm is so good!

[cin]

Hi Guys,

I am thinking of trying out this build of UG Post.
Can you give me your insights and Suggestions?

Some Questions:
-Stifles should be Trickbind?
-How many Candelabra of Tawnos?
-is Force of will good on this deck?
-Is the ratio of Crop Rotation and Expedition Map 4:3 or 3:4 or 3:3?
-Some builds uses Trinket Mage? is it Really that good?

Current Deck List:

[LANDS - 25]
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm

[CREATURES - 6]
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Primeval Titan

[INSTANTS - 15]
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation

[SORCERIES - 2]
2 Show and Tell

[ARTIFACTS - 12]
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
2 Candelabra of Tawnos

[SIDE BOARD]
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip
2 Elephant Grass
1 Crop Rotation
1 Show and Tell
1 Maze of Ith
2 Flusterstorm


Thank you very much!

[Zotmaster]

Some Questions:
-Stifles should be Trickbind?

There's no definitive answer, but I think so. The fact that Trickbind can't be conventionally countered and also defeats Chalice of the Void on one is really useful. It also has corner case usages like stopping a Sneak & Skill player from activating Sneak Attack or Griselbrand again if they ever pass priority to you.


-How many Candelabra of Tawnos?

One at the minimum if you can tutor for it. More realistically, I think two is better. In my mono-green list, I run three, and TheBoozeCube runs four, I think: our lists are pretty similar.


-is Force of will good on this deck?

It certainly can be. Only having 14 blue spells in your list kind of worries me but you might be able to pull it off. I wouldn't just have two Flusterstorm in the board: you probably want three or four because the Storm matchup is awful, and in the worst case, you can still counter spells through Chalice of the Void on one or Counterbalance in a pinch.


-Is the ratio of Crop Rotation and Expedition Map 4:3 or 3:4 or 3:3?

This is harder to answer. As far as Expedition Map goes, it's easier to justify three if you can tutor for it. One of the many nice things about running four is you can often easily get away with shaving one in favor of a sideboard card in Games 2 and 3. For Crop Rotation, the right number is a little harder. When I was running multiple colors, running 4 felt really bad because they would often stick in my hand: I felt the consequences for having one countered were more dire because of the importance of the colored sources. In my mono-green list, I run 6 Forests, 3 fetch lands, and my only green cards of consequence are 4 Crop Rotation and 4 Ancient Stirrings pre-board. I do have Primeval Titan, but I can always Map or Crop for a Cavern of Souls if I really want to. Because of that, I can use Crop with almost reckless abandon because as long as I have one colored source, I can cast the green spells I need.


-Some builds uses Trinket Mage? is it Really that good?

Trinket Mage allows a more comprehensive hate package and also can gain you some virtual life by either getting in the way of a creature or eating a removal spell. It allows you to cater your sideboard to whatever you need most: Chalice of the Void, Grafdigger's Cage, Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, and Engineered Explosives are all on the table. You're probably also already running Candelabra of Tawnos, Expedition Map, Sensei's Divining Top, and Pithing Needle anyway, and Mage gets all of them, too.

[deadlock]

-Stifles should be Trickbind?
Depends on your general mana curve and the total number of both. Also consider the new Kozilek's counter ability. Currently I try a 2/2 split. Trickbind is more versatile, but also a bit clunky and I am already having 4 cmc 2 cards with Warping Wail in my deck. The 2 Stifles complement my 3 Crop Rotations as a 1 mana 'answer' to Wasteland. So normally I would run 2-4 Trickbinds and 0-2 Stifles.


-How many Candelabra of Tawnos?
If we assume Ug(w) Post then I would say 0-2. CoT is an accelerant, which can do broken things, but it is less powerful than Show and Tell in my opinion. Going up to 4 SnT was one of the major evolutionary steps of the deck. You have to adjust your creature base accordingly, by upping your threats a bit. 2 more creatures is fine. I am testing whether I want 2 new Kozis or 1 Kozi and 1 Platinum Emperion currently. Non-blue builds rely more on CoT obviously. CoT has the benefit that it can 'wash' colorless mana to colored (and now the opposite if u wish ;). Finally I would say run 0-2 in any blue based build.


-is Force of will good on this deck?
I agree with Zotmaster here. Our blue count is a bit to low, especially if you consider post board scenarios. Also consider that FoW is actually very strong in this deck if we make it work, because we dont have / want specialized answers, but general ones. Counters, Stifle effects, Warping Wail like cards. As we have a more powerful win than e.g. Miracles or the deck has a combo aspect and is only partially a control deck (depending on the build). Another important point why FoW is great, is that we can interact without having blue mana available. It is a funny contradiction. One the side we dont cant push up the colored cards to much, because of the manabase constrains, on the other hand if we manage to get critical mass, we are somewhat relieved from this constraint with a card like FoW. Testing CR'less builds is one way to try 'mono' blue FoW build.


-Is the ratio of Crop Rotation and Expedition Map 4:3 or 3:4 or 3:3?
I'd say the default number of CR in Ug(w) is 3. I could see that this number gets lowered in the future for Ug builds, as we can always up the Stifle / Trickbind count, which makes FoW more potent, but we lose the instant graveyard hate option. Very interesting possibilities for future builds arise here.


-Some builds uses Trinket Mage? is it Really that good?
I agree with Zotmaster. It has to be evaluated with the sideboard / trinkets you bring in, in mind. Like every tutor it adds virtual copies of the cards it can find. E.g. the deck relies heavily on Senseis Top and simply having access to more copies of it, is already good. However the general powerlevel of the card, compared with the Legacy standards is a tiny bit too low (just compare it to the ultra powerful Show and Tell, we also run and which has the same manacost). Finally I woulds say, some builds 'require' it, but I am happy if I can drop him in a build.

PS: My reasoning is always based on my inclination towards heavy blue builds / making the deck as blue as possible, while keeping in the strain of that many colorless lands in mind. So I play Ug, Ugw and 'mono' U post.

[TheBoozeCube]

Some Questions:
-Stifles should be Trickbind?
-How many Candelabra of Tawnos?
-is Force of will good on this deck?
-Is the ratio of Crop Rotation and Expedition Map 4:3 or 3:4 or 3:3?
-Some builds uses Trinket Mage? is it Really that good?

Personally, I think that more Candelabras are always better. In addition to being an insanely powerful accelerant, they provide a hedge against Wasteland; even a single Candelabra allows you to do so much more with fewer Posts in play. And they're even better in multiples.

I would suggest 4:4. The deck's land toolbox is one of the things that makes it so powerful, especially with Crop Rotation. Being able to take out a graveyard or find Karakas at instant speed gets you a lot of blowouts.


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[TheBoozeCube]

I pulled a Kozilek at the midnight prerelease. I managed to cast it in literally every single game after round 1. Went 2-2.

Initial impression: I was vey underwhelmed by Kozilek. Granted, it's limited, but menace is not even close to a replacement for annihilator, and his draw trigger felt meh at best compared to original. Even in Limited, I had several cards in hand when I cast him, so he drew perhaps one more card than original Koz. He also got bounced twice, and since he had already just refilled my hand, the second casting trigger was weak. He will definitely not be a ticket to valuetown with Karakas. He's probably not worth playing except with S&T, and only to the extent his countermagic vs meta fits the variety of CMCs in your build.


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[Pdingo]

theboozecube

Are you serious? Limited and legacy isn't the same thing... Of course s annihilator 4 better in limited lol
New Kozilek is alot better. I mean how much do you bounce kozilek in 100 games with karakas??
Maybe 3- 4 times..
Snt inti kozilek is just bad..He can't draw cards if you put him on the field like this..

[oracL3]

Hi guys,i'm pretty new with this deck and recently i picked up the C/g build of this deck for some practice. About the sideboarding there is some where a comprensive guide to how sideboard? I was reading last and initial pages of this forum But i didn't find Very much. Thank u in advance for any help :-)

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[Hopo]

Snt inti kozilek is just bad..He can't draw cards if you put him on the field like this..

IMO that's a very wrong angle to look from. You want to play Kozilek because of the countering ability, not card draw. Also, in order for the ability to actually do anything you need to put Koz down asap, which basically means Show and Tell. I don't know how others have thought of this, but to me the only neo-Kozilek build that makes sense starts with 4 Show and tell + 4 Kozilek. Without Show and Tell, the countering hardly matters as Kozilek lands way too late. This is the one deck that doesn't need anymore help with the late game. Quite the opposite: I'm not sure is turn 3 fast enough. At least the UG builds have tools to start disrupting starting from turn one.

Maybe a green 4-Candle build could also squeeze it out before it's too late but I have my reservations.

[TheBoozeCube]

theboozecube

Are you serious? Limited and legacy isn't the same thing... Of course s annihilator 4 better in limited lol
New Kozilek is alot better. I mean how much do you bounce kozilek in 100 games with karakas??
Maybe 3- 4 times..
Snt inti kozilek is just bad..He can't draw cards if you put him on the field like this..

I'll agree that Limited and Legacy are very different formats. To be fair, I wrote that post at 5 am after I got home from the prerelease. Even so, I still don't think new Koz holds a candle to old Koz.

As far as annihilator goes, I think it's hard to overestimate how good it is and how much losing it hurts this card. Annihilator is arguably the most powerful and unfair creature keyword mechanic that has ever been printed. It doesn't even have to connect to win you the game; just a single declaration of attack is usually enough to tip the scales overwhelmingly in your favor. Your opponent is going to lose a large chunk of its board and, therefore, their chances of coming back. Annihilator is basically raw card advantage every time you attack. Menace is just mediocre evasion. If your opponent isn't at 12 or less, they will often be able to just take the hit and kill you on the swing back.

The interaction with Karakas doesn't come up all the time, but it comes up enough for me to matter. And when it does, sometimes it matters a lot because it's when I tend to be mana flooded and need to find a way to stabilize or win the game immediately, like digging for a board wipe or Emrakul. More frequently, however, I'm just using Karakas to protect Kozilek from StP or Lili. The extra card advantage makes up for the tempo loss from missing the next attack step (and annihilator trigger).

S&T into Koz seems to be the best thing going for him. You don't draw, but you do get him down quickly enough that you probably still have enough cards left to activate his countermagic to fight combo. Even in my build with 4x Candelabras, I'm not confident that I can ramp fast enough to reliably hardcast him by turn 3, when a deck like Storm often goes off. Obviously, he's fine to cast as the game goes on — and unless it's a combo matchup, I'm sure UG will favor S&T into PrimeTime — but I don't see a compelling reason to play him over old Koz's annihilator unless you can use him to fight combo. And I just don't see that as realistic in non-S&T builds.


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[mykatdied]

I'll agree that Limited and Legacy are very different formats. To be fair, I wrote that post at 5 am after I got home from the prerelease. Even so, I still don't think new Koz holds a candle to old Koz.

As far as annihilator goes, I think it's hard to overestimate how good it is and how much losing it hurts this card. Annihilator is arguably the most powerful and unfair creature keyword mechanic that has ever been printed. It doesn't even have to connect to win you the game; just a single declaration of attack is usually enough to tip the scales overwhelmingly in your favor. Your opponent is going to lose a large chunk of its board and, therefore, their chances of coming back. Annihilator is basically raw card advantage every time you attack. Menace is just mediocre evasion. If your opponent isn't at 12 or less, they will often be able to just take the hit and kill you on the swing back.

The interaction with Karakas doesn't come up all the time, but it comes up enough for me to matter. And when it does, sometimes it matters a lot because it's when I tend to be mana flooded and need to find a way to stabilize or win the game immediately, like digging for a board wipe or Emrakul. More frequently, however, I'm just using Karakas to protect Kozilek from StP or Lili. The extra card advantage makes up for the tempo loss from missing the next attack step (and annihilator trigger).

S&T into Koz seems to be the best thing going for him. You don't draw, but you do get him down quickly enough that you probably still have enough cards left to activate his countermagic to fight combo. Even in my build with 4x Candelabras, I'm not confident that I can ramp fast enough to reliably hardcast him by turn 3, when a deck like Storm often goes off. Obviously, he's fine to cast as the game goes on — and unless it's a combo matchup, I'm sure UG will favor S&T into PrimeTime — but I don't see a compelling reason to play him over old Koz's annihilator unless you can use him to fight combo. And I just don't see that as realistic in non-S&T builds.


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I second this sentiment for pretty much every reason described here. The only comment I could add is that in mono green we are definitely more likely to hard cast him early. My build is based more off mana ramp and I have had games where I was able to cast Kozilek turn 3 on the play against storm. Having this guy would have obviously been much better than old Kozilek as I'm less likely to die passing the turn having the new one on the field with his ability ready to go. Adding sphere of resistance and other hate cards can certainly make it more likely to cast this guy in time and be able to actually stop combo in its tracks. Of course that is only If I haven't been forced to discard him to a cabal therapy, etc.

[TheBoozeCube]

I second this sentiment for pretty much every reason described here. The only comment I could add is that in mono green we are definitely more likely to hard cast him early. My build is based more off mana ramp and I have had games where I was able to cast Kozilek turn 3 on the play against storm. Having this guy would have obviously been much better than old Kozilek as I'm less likely to die passing the turn having the new one on the field with his ability ready to go. Adding sphere of resistance and other hate cards can certainly make it more likely to cast this guy in time and be able to actually stop combo in its tracks. Of course that is only If I haven't been forced to discard him to a cabal therapy, etc.

Yep. It's not that mono-G can't cast Koz on T3, it's that we can't do it consistently. It basically requires a nut draw, not something we can rely on. (And that's not even factoring in the tempo used up to tutor with Eye if he's not in your opener.)

I'm actually even less confident with him going forward, as I'll be testing replacing all of my Explorations with Warping Wail.


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[mykatdied]

Yep. It's not that mono-G can't cast Koz on T3, it's that we can't do it consistently. It basically requires a nut draw, not something we can rely on. (And that's not even factoring in the tempo used up to tutor with Eye if he's not in your opener.)

I'm actually even less confident with him going forward, as I'll be testing replacing all of my Explorations with Warping Wail.


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Definitely not the most likely scenario for sure, I agree. Warping wail seems interesting. I'll likely have to test a few

[Zotmaster]

I tweaked my list a little bit, cutting my Titans for another Nulamog, another Kozilek, and a pair of Karn Liberated. It actually felt pretty good since all of my threats are now colorless and each threat can win the game by itself; that and Karn covers things Ugin can't, at a lower mana cost than Nulamog. That having been said, Karn may still not be right, but I think the big takeaway for me is that it seems very possible that the correct number of Nulamogs is "more than one".

[mykatdied]

I don't think I can get behind fully cutting titans, but I can see why you might want to do it. I would like the idea of cutting spells and going more in on threats to make your top decks more threatening for your opponent once you hit 10 mana or so. It also can alleviate the strain on having to find your threats when you have the mana. I have considered this approach before but ultimately nixed it since I am comfortable with my list as is.

[Zotmaster]

I don't think I can get behind fully cutting titans, but I can see why you might want to do it. I would like the idea of cutting spells and going more in on threats to make your top decks more threatening for your opponent once you hit 10 mana or so. It also can alleviate the strain on having to find your threats when you have the mana. I have considered this approach before but ultimately nixed it since I am comfortable with my list as is.

The biggest reason for cutting it is because, like BoozeCube, I am currently playing mono-green. Though Titan is still playable, by cutting it I can guarantee every single threat in my deck is both fetchable with Ancient Stirrings and will also win by itself if my opponent can't get rid of it, and each of those threats is at least as hard, if not harder, to get rid of than Titan. It also frees up a slot that would otherwise be filled by Cavern of Souls: it can't protect planeswalkers and the big Eldrazi still get their cast triggers. In UG, I've tried cutting Titan before in many of my brews, and most of the time I've regretted it. I may end up putting Cavern back in post-OGW as I think running a slightly faster deck with some of the smaller Eldrazi might be doable.

[Davek]

Hi all! After many months absent from the scene of magic tournaments, i've dusted off my beloved deck, but i'd like to have your suggestion about some card choices. This is the list i'm playing at the moment and that i'm pretty happy with:

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Cavern of Souls

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Primeval Titan
2 Oracle of Mul-Daya
2 Trinket Mage

3 Sensei Divining Top
2 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation
3 Repeal
3 Warping Wail
2 Show and Tell


SB
3 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Chalice of the Void
3----- empty slots

I have to say that testing against decent players i found to have a good matchup overall against Grixis Delver and BUG Delver. This is my reasoning behind my deck choices:

Why no Candelabra? There's no other way to say, i found it... situational. In my opinion, there's absolutely no need to generate a huge amount of mana so early in the game, for i have all the tools to take down the game at my pace. If you can't find multiple posts or if they get wastelanded, then it's absolutely a mulligan card you'd wish not to see. Don't get me wrong, I may consider bringing it back as a single copy to be found through mage, but if i could find more room would probably take back in the third copy of map or Show and Tell.

Why no Ugin? I played with him 20 or so games and never found him useful. NEVER. He's a beast once in play, no doubts, but against tempo decks it will spend most of its time clogging your hand as an additional overexpensive card you're not able to play. Against combo it simply does nothing, so for me he's out.

Why old Ulamog? At the moment i don't own Nulamog and i didn't test him well, but i love the reshuffling effect the old one provides if discarded or countered. I can remember many games when i could take the luxury to discard him to liliana only to get it back a couple of turn later and nuke that planeswalker together with half of my opponent board with a single attack. As well said by BoozeCube, annihilator is no joke and the Infinite Gyre is much more threatening than the new one if put into play via Show and Tell.

Why Trinket Mage? Are you serious guys? Do you think it's underwhelming? I can't remember a single game where i wasn't happy to draw him. It's a tutor and chumpblocks like a champ. In addition it's a small creature your bug opponents need to take care before using their Liliana's -2 activation to get rid of your Titan. He also tutors for Engineered Explosives, which are simply fantastic to get rid of chalice of the void set to 1 or to eat a couple of tarmogoyfs in a single row.

Why 3 Sensei Tops only? I think it's the card that gets hated the most after sb, so while a pillar of this deck i don't like too see it in multiples. As said before, i can tutor for it with a mage just in case.

Why Maze of Ith? A great card against reanimator, Tarmogoyf and Gurmag Angler, i'm happy to have a way to protect myself from a single threat, without having to tutor for Glacial Chasm.

I need to tune a fine sb against the meta, as you see i've 3 slots left. What would you suggest? I was considering Tabernacle, but it's very situational, Mind Harness, which is VERY nice against Tarmogoyfs, Knights of the Reliquary and Deathrite Shamans, Submerge, or maybe some additional hate against combo decks.

[Drixx]

Hi all! After many months absent from the scene of magic tournaments, i've dusted off my beloved deck, but i'd like to have your suggestion about some card choices. This is the list i'm playing at the moment and that i'm pretty happy with:

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Cavern of Souls

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Primeval Titan
2 Oracle of Mul-Daya
2 Trinket Mage

3 Sensei Divining Top
2 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation
3 Repeal
3 Warping Wail
2 Show and Tell


SB
3 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Chalice of the Void
3----- empty slots

I have to say that testing against decent players i found to have a good matchup overall against Grixis Delver and BUG Delver. This is my reasoning behind my deck choices:

Why no Candelabra? There's no other way to say, i found it... situational. In my opinion, there's absolutely no need to generate a huge amount of mana so early in the game, for i have all the tools to take down the game at my pace. If you can't find multiple posts or if they get wastelanded, then it's absolutely a mulligan card you'd wish not to see. Don't get me wrong, I may consider bringing it back as a single copy to be found through mage, but if i could find more room would probably take back in the third copy of map or Show and Tell.

Why no Ugin? I played with him 20 or so games and never found him useful. NEVER. He's a beast once in play, no doubts, but against tempo decks it will spend most of its time clogging your hand as an additional overexpensive card you're not able to play. Against combo it simply does nothing, so for me he's out.

Why old Ulamog? At the moment i don't own Nulamog and i didn't test him well, but i love the reshuffling effect the old one provides if discarded or countered. I can remember many games when i could take the luxury to discard him to liliana only to get it back a couple of turn later and nuke that planeswalker together with half of my opponent board with a single attack. As well said by BoozeCube, annihilator is no joke and the Infinite Gyre is much more threatening than the new one if put into play via Show and Tell.

Why Trinket Mage? Are you serious guys? Do you think it's underwhelming? I can't remember a single game where i wasn't happy to draw him. It's a tutor and chumpblocks like a champ. In addition it's a small creature your bug opponents need to take care before using their Liliana's -2 activation to get rid of your Titan. He also tutors for Engineered Explosives, which are simply fantastic to get rid of chalice of the void set to 1 or to eat a couple of tarmogoyfs in a single row.

Why 3 Sensei Tops only? I think it's the card that gets hated the most after sb, so while a pillar of this deck i don't like too see it in multiples. As said before, i can tutor for it with a mage just in case.

Why Maze of Ith? A great card against reanimator, Tarmogoyf and Gurmag Angler, i'm happy to have a way to protect myself from a single threat, without having to tutor for Glacial Chasm.

I need to tune a fine sb against the meta, as you see i've 3 slots left. What would you suggest? I was considering Tabernacle, but it's very situational, Mind Harness, which is VERY nice against Tarmogoyfs, Knights of the Reliquary and Deathrite Shamans, Submerge, or maybe some additional hate against combo decks.



Hi Davek, i mostly agree with your opinions especialy with old Eldrazis but about candelabra this card i just side out when i'm on play against decays decks but anyway i never side it out is great to stabilize your colored mana mostly unconsidered to counter it in first or second round for opponent because you still don't have cloudposts so you can quickly ramp after and in many times also in extra turns find candelabra was just only card to win and is good if you have not much removals for enchantment called back to basics that's very bad.. and about Ugin i have him in side just for non-daze decks except merfolks like shardles agent and jund these dekcs are here in my meta in many so ugin is best for them shardless and jund can still do lot of things with titan from show and tell and they have ussualy better card advantage but Ugin what can i say ;) for sb maybe couple of relics could fix your fear from grave groving monsters.. Cau

[Zotmaster]

Why no Candelabra? There's no other way to say, i found it... situational. In my opinion, there's absolutely no need to generate a huge amount of mana so early in the game, for i have all the tools to take down the game at my pace. If you can't find multiple posts or if they get wastelanded, then it's absolutely a mulligan card you'd wish not to see. Don't get me wrong, I may consider bringing it back as a single copy to be found through mage, but if i could find more room would probably take back in the third copy of map or Show and Tell.

I believe this is a mistake for a number of reasons, but I'll get back to it.


Why no Ugin? I played with him 20 or so games and never found him useful. NEVER. He's a beast once in play, no doubts, but against tempo decks it will spend most of its time clogging your hand as an additional overexpensive card you're not able to play. Against combo it simply does nothing, so for me he's out.

As a singleton he's usually not great. I think you're greatly underestimating his value, though. A resolved Ugin basically wins the game by himself. Much like how against most stripes of Delver you win if you resolve Show and Tell, against basically every non-combo deck in the format - I count Lands as a combo deck - you win if Ugin resolves.


Why old Ulamog? At the moment i don't own Nulamog and i didn't test him well, but i love the reshuffling effect the old one provides if discarded or countered. I can remember many games when i could take the luxury to discard him to liliana only to get it back a couple of turn later and nuke that planeswalker together with half of my opponent board with a single attack. As well said by BoozeCube, annihilator is no joke and the Infinite Gyre is much more threatening than the new one if put into play via Show and Tell.

You need to try Nulamog. I'm fairly certain that he is the second best Eldrazi titan printed to date, and there actually is a potential argument - to be clear, I am not saying I necessarily agree with it, only that an argument can be made - for him being better than Emrakul. Even ignoring the fact that he's cheaper than the original Ulamog - 1 mana means a lot when it's rotting in your hand - exiling two is infinitely better than destroying one. While losing annihilator is admittedly a shame, as it is Nulamog is still basically a two-turn clock even if he's blocked. Even if 40 cards doesn't completely deck your opponent, that probably means they have seven or fewer cards to work with: which basically means they've already lost. In the mean time, you get a discount and a MUCH deadlier cast trigger while still killing your opponent as fast, if not faster, than the old one. If you are worried about the extra shuffle effect, there's always Kozilek, and his cast trigger is obviously fantastic too.


Why Trinket Mage? Are you serious guys? Do you think it's underwhelming? I can't remember a single game where i wasn't happy to draw him. It's a tutor and chumpblocks like a champ. In addition it's a small creature your bug opponents need to take care before using their Liliana's -2 activation to get rid of your Titan. He also tutors for Engineered Explosives, which are simply fantastic to get rid of chalice of the void set to 1 or to eat a couple of tarmogoyfs in a single row.

I like Trinket Mage. It makes your decision to not run at least one Candel even more perplexing. This deck without Candel is like having a Lamborghini but not knowing how to drive stick. Need ramp? Mage gets it.


Why 3 Sensei Tops only? I think it's the card that gets hated the most after sb, so while a pillar of this deck i don't like too see it in multiples. As said before, i can tutor for it with a mage just in case.

The only really relevant hate for the card that you'd see is Pithing Needle, and if someone Needles your Top, it just means your Eyes, Maps and Candels still work. That having been said, 3 is perfectly fine with a Trinket Mage package.


Why Maze of Ith? A great card against reanimator, Tarmogoyf and Gurmag Angler, i'm happy to have a way to protect myself from a single threat, without having to tutor for Glacial Chasm.

I think this is a mistake, especially without Candels. One Maze by itself is a minor inconvenience for the opponent. Either go heavy on a Maze plan or just run something like Tabernacle instead. If reanimator is your concern, why Crop into Maze when you can just Crop into Bog? BoozeCube and I both run multiple Mazes to go along with Candels, which means we can basically hold back entire armies if need be. With a few minor exceptions, you'd probably never want to use Expedition Map to get your Maze, and if one is all you have, you probably would have been better served trying to ramp into Titan to get you out of trouble.


I need to tune a fine sb against the meta, as you see i've 3 slots left. What would you suggest? I was considering Tabernacle, but it's very situational, Mind Harness, which is VERY nice against Tarmogoyfs, Knights of the Reliquary and Deathrite Shamans, Submerge, or maybe some additional hate against combo decks.

Relic of Progenitus seems to make the most sense. It fights Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Deathrite Shaman, graveyard strategies in general, and most importantly, the Trinket Mages you are already running can go get it.

[mykatdied]

The biggest reason for cutting it is because, like BoozeCube, I am currently playing mono-green. Though Titan is still playable, by cutting it I can guarantee every single threat in my deck is both fetchable with Ancient Stirrings and will also win by itself if my opponent can't get rid of it, and each of those threats is at least as hard, if not harder, to get rid of than Titan. It also frees up a slot that would otherwise be filled by Cavern of Souls: it can't protect planeswalkers and the big Eldrazi still get their cast triggers. In UG, I've tried cutting Titan before in many of my brews, and most of the time I've regretted it. I may end up putting Cavern back in post-OGW as I think running a slightly faster deck with some of the smaller Eldrazi might be doable.

Interesting. I am not against the idea, the idea just seems very different than what I usually hope for. I personally love having Titan to cast early in the game. The new Eldrazi could really fill that slot though. Maybe even Oblivion Sower since it can basically ramp us similar to titan minus the post lands and eye. It can certainly get us from 6 mana to a possible 10 mana with a cast.

[TheBoozeCube]

You need to try Nulamog. I'm fairly certain that he is the second best Eldrazi titan printed to date, and there actually is a potential argument - to be clear, I am not saying I necessarily agree with it, only that an argument can be made - for him being better than Emrakul. Even ignoring the fact that he's cheaper than the original Ulamog - 1 mana means a lot when it's rotting in your hand - exiling two is infinitely better than destroying one. While losing annihilator is admittedly a shame, as it is Nulamog is still basically a two-turn clock even if he's blocked. Even if 40 cards doesn't completely deck your opponent, that probably means they have seven or fewer cards to work with: which basically means they've already lost. In the mean time, you get a discount and a MUCH deadlier cast trigger while still killing your opponent as fast, if not faster, than the old one. If you are worried about the extra shuffle effect, there's always Kozilek, and his cast trigger is obviously fantastic too.


Agreed. Losing annihilator on new Kozilek was a dealbreaker for me because his new cast trigger is worse and his counter ability isn't worth it because I'm not playing S&T.

Losing annihilator on Newlamog, by contrast, is disappointing but not a big deal because his new cast trigger is SO much more powerful. Previously, I tutored for Ulamog only when I needed to take out a specific problem that needed to be dealt with; otherwise, I'd go for Kozilek and card advantage. Now, I find myself tutoring for Newlamog and Kozilek about equally.

Essentially, the impact of Newlamog's casting trigger is equivalent to one annihilator trigger. While you only hit 2 permanents instead of 5 (counting the original cast trigger), the ability to choose which means that you are guaranteed to hit the right ones. Moreover, you get that extra permanent immediately instead of having to wait until your next attack step.


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[Mockingbird]

Agreed. Losing annihilator on new Kozilek was a dealbreaker for me because his new cast trigger is worse and his counter ability isn't worth it because I'm not playing S&T.

Losing annihilator on Newlamog, by contrast, is disappointing but not a big deal because his new cast trigger is SO much more powerful. Previously, I tutored for Ulamog only when I needed to take out a specific problem that needed to be dealt with; otherwise, I'd go for Kozilek and card advantage. Now, I find myself tutoring for Newlamog and Kozilek about equally...

I've been playing around with the Great Distortion, and I disagree with this assessment.

Menace + Disrupting Shoal are a much better combined ability than I've imagined in my testing because it means they're on a fast and evasive and you have back-up (and if they're blocking, it's a war of attrition instead of chumping). And the cast trigger has been great for me in your style build because I often find myself trying to get out of topdecking... which is why instead of taking one of the two Kozileks out, I squeezed in a Great Distortion in addition to them.

Then there's the biggest selling point for Kozilek 2.o: In Legacy, he often counters Swords to Plowshares. And gets to hit his fair share of 2 costs as well.

I suspect if Legacy mid-range falls out of favor, KtGD has the chance to actually fill the roll as a cheaper alternative to Emrakul. The idea is being thrown around in Modern because the format is expected to pick up speed without Splinter Twin, and the argument runs similar in Legacy. Emrakul is an evasive giant that costs 15 mana and is essentially unblockable, crippling everyone that survives while protecting herself. Kozilek is similar. The only difference is counter magic is viable in the Legacy format. How much of a difference does that make? I dunno, I'll have to get back to you on that. More testing required.

[TheBoozeCube]

which is why instead of taking one of the two Kozileks out, I squeezed in a Great Distortion in addition to them.

What did you cut to make room for him?


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[Rock Lee]

I've been playing around with the Great Distortion, and I disagree with this assessment.

Menace + Disrupting Shoal are a much better combined ability than I've imagined in my testing because it means they're on a fast and evasive and you have back-up (and if they're blocking, it's a war of attrition instead of chumping). And the cast trigger has been great for me in your style build because I often find myself trying to get out of topdecking... which is why instead of taking one of the two Kozileks out, I squeezed in a Great Distortion in addition to them.

Then there's the biggest selling point for Kozilek 2.o: In Legacy, he often counters Swords to Plowshares. And gets to hit his fair share of 2 costs as well.

I suspect if Legacy mid-range falls out of favor, KtGD has the chance to actually fill the roll as a cheaper alternative to Emrakul. The idea is being thrown around in Modern because the format is expected to pick up speed without Splinter Twin, and the argument runs similar in Legacy. Emrakul is an evasive giant that costs 15 mana and is essentially unblockable, crippling everyone that survives while protecting herself. Kozilek is similar. The only difference is counter magic is viable in the Legacy format. How much of a difference does that make? I dunno, I'll have to get back to you on that. More testing required.

This is a bit of a random aside. But seriously, the summer bloom / splinter twin banning is why I don't play Modern. In Legacy, the value of your cards could ebb and wane, but for the most part, go up. In Modern, your entire deck could drop catastrophically on the whim of bad statistics. No deck builder wants to play in that format.

[Ricardio]

This is a bit of a random aside. But seriously, the summer bloom / splinter twin banning is why I don't play Modern. In Legacy, the value of your cards could ebb and wane, but for the most part, go up. In Modern, your entire deck could drop catastrophically on the whim of bad statistics. No deck builder wants to play in that format.

The banning of splinter twin sets a precedent not previously in place in any other format: Nothing is Sacred. Bloom was a menace to some degree and splinter twin diluted the format but was not a necessary ban in most opinions. The format is wotc's pet experiment to some degree whereas legacy is the child they just don't care about. Ideally, this eternal set supposedly coming in the fall will reignite passion for legacy but if that is the case, I know the prices will sky rocket like those of modern currently leading into the pro tour and modern pptq season. Get everything you will or may need now and brace yourselves. Additionally, I forsee modern becoming more of a joke with all these eldrazi. Ride the wave down or hop off onto the beach and watch the catastrophe with a beer in hand.

[Davek]

Ok, i’ve read your comments, here are my considerations:

Candelabra: in the version I’ve developed, it’s not a very important card. I’m pretty sure that in mono-green versions it pulls his weight, but in my U-G one I rarely tutored for it. That said, I may include it again, but what would you cut? Don’t say Explosives, for they are amazing in almost every game (and yes, I keep in a single copy against storm in case of EtW plan and also against sneak&show to occasionally get rid of Needles, Defense Grid or Blood Moon).

Ugin: when I have reached the amount of mana in order to play it, I can usually close the game. The main problem of this deck is being pressured on the very first turns of the game so I’m not sold on the idea of filling my deck with so many mana-hungry cards. It doesn’t help against the decks that could cause problems in early turns like Burn or Infect and it exposes itself easily to taxing counterspells of tempo decks, for you may be forced to play it as soon as you reach the exact or so amount of mana because you’re facing a little army that’s dangerously lowering your life total. Against BUG Shardless or other black based decks, it’s a card hightly in risk of being discarded before you have the occasion to cast it, since it will probably stay in your hand for a considerable number of turns. You can’t even SnT him… nah. Tested as a 2-of, not going back. My Ugins are Engineered Explosives.

Nulamog: I’ll test him instead of the old one and will let you know. The only thing that didn’t sound right to me is the idea that with 2 attacks your opponent is dead, because it’s not. If they can handle Nulamog in some way, 6-7 remaining cards in their deck means that he still has plenty of time to kill you.

Maze of Ith: I took it out and brought it in from the deck countless times, but lately I’ve decided it has to stay. If you look at my version of the deck, between Repeals, Warping Wails and Explosives I can usually take care of many early threats, so the fact that maze can handle just one is perfectly fine. It’s a pesky land the opponent may be tempted to destroy with wasteland, saving other mana-producing lands and it’s pretty good against infect too. Regarding the reanimator example, i usually do not tutor for it, but it’s an additional card that prevents them to go nuts with Griselbrand or stops things like Ashen Rider/Sire of Insanity.

SB choices: Relic of Progenitus is a nice suggestion, thank you! But then what? Tabernacle is another card I continuously take in and out from sb, as sometimes is amazing and sometimes horrid. I can remember one of the last games against grixis where I put my Tabernacle while he already had 3 lands in play. 3 turns later he had 5 lands into play, a pyromancer and 4 tokens and was happily smashing my face while I couldn’t find anything to stop the bleeding. So, while a good card, we sometimes are so slow that the malus it provides isn’t enough.

[Zotmaster]

SB choices: Relic of Progenitus is a nice suggestion, thank you! But then what? Tabernacle is another card I continuously take in and out from sb, as sometimes is amazing and sometimes horrid. I can remember one of the last games against grixis where I put my Tabernacle while he already had 3 lands in play. 3 turns later he had 5 lands into play, a pyromancer and 4 tokens and was happily smashing my face while I couldn’t find anything to stop the bleeding. So, while a good card, we sometimes are so slow that the malus it provides isn’t enough.

We'll probably agree to disagree on the rest, so I'll just address this.

My actual thought on just suggesting Relics was based on what you said: I would have envisioned you running 3 in the board, which was perhaps the wrong assumption. The rest of the slots are basically meta calls, but I'll give you some ideas.

Grafdigger's Cage does a good job of slowing down Reanimator and Dredge. It forces a sideboard answer or an alternate plan of attack from Storm. It slows down Elves until they naturally draw Reclamation Sage or just manage to nut draw through it. It slows down Maverick until they naturally draw Qasali Pridemage, which increases the chances of your Pithing Needle sticking if you manage to play one. Mage finds it.

Chalice of the Void is very strong against Storm if they can't find a bounce spell or Abrupt Decay. Depending on what you board out or what CMC you name, it has some level of use against almost everything. Mage finds it as well.

Orbs of Warding is a pretty cool answer to Storm and Grixis as well as having a bit of play against Burn, as it makes you immune to 1-power idiots, discard, burn spells, and Tendrils of Agony. Though it's 5 mana and Mage can't get it, pairing it with other cards you bring in can make it much more likely you live long enough to cast it.

[Mockingbird]

What did you cut to make room for him?I run only 3 Crop Rotations because Miracles is still prevalent.


This is a bit of a random aside. But seriously, the summer bloom / splinter twin banning is why I don't play Modern. In Legacy, the value of your cards could ebb and wane, but for the most part, go up. In Modern, your entire deck could drop catastrophically on the whim of bad statistics. No deck builder wants to play in that format.

Considering my favorite decks in Modern are G(r) Tron and the new Bx Eldrazi decks, the ban is actually quite helpful to me... this time :eyebrow:. Anyway, A Legacy thread isn't the place to get too in depth with Modern politics. We can take up the discussion either in the Source's Modern ban thread or in PMing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But here's something that grabbed my attention today, and I spent the better part of the day playtesting it. There's a new branch off of MUD-Post that I've affectionally named Legends of Colorless. The basic idea is to artifact ramp through the Sol Lands and 12-Post to get a Turn 3 or 4 Karn Liberated/Ugin, the Spirit Dragon/Kozilek, the Great Distortion/Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger/Wurmcoil Engine. And yes, I've done it with all of them (except Wurmcoil Engine, but that's because it's not in my initial list).

Here's a tournament List (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=10804&d=261801&f=LE)

Here's the list I'm playing (I pulled it from the MUD thread)


//Lands: 24
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Karakas
4 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin

//Creatures: 5
3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Kozilek, the Great Distortion

//Artifacts: 24
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo
1 Hedron Archive
4 Coercive Portal
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

//Planeswalkers: 7
4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated

//Sideboard
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
1 Duplicant


I'll probably go -1 Ugin, +1 Karn because multiple Ugins are less useful than multiple Karns (something I should have remembered learning back when Ugin was fresh released). And there's always room to more artifact-y with Sundering Titan and Wurmcoil Engine, although five Eldrazi triggers (or more depending on Karakas) seems more enticing to me than MUD finishers at the moment. I may also try to find room somewhere in the 75 for an Emrakul since I get into range... semi-regularly (although not regularly enough, which is why I haven't done it yet).

[Morden]

Hi guys, some help.
I want to discuss Sphere of resistance in sideboard. In particular how this card works against burn, elves, storm, infect.
As we all know, it's very good on the play, but on the draw is annoying: opponent has already played 2 turn with no resistance, and I consider this a lot (that's why I don't like trinisphere). And sometimes (rarely indeed) sphere hits also us: in general we have a lot of CMC1 spells, instant or not, we lose the speed of that part of the deck.
So I thought this: let's try the opposite way, not slow them but accelerate us a little. Elvish Spirit Guide it's nice: it's a turn 2 S&T, turn 1 pyroclasm, turn 2 kozilek's return, turn 3/4 titan. And against infect it's a nice suprise when he plays daze.
Does anyone try this?

[TheBoozeCube]

Hi guys, some help.
I want to discuss Sphere of resistance in sideboard. In particular how this card works against burn, elves, storm, infect.
As we all know, it's very good on the play, but on the draw is annoying: opponent has already played 2 turn with no resistance, and I consider this a lot (that's why I don't like trinisphere). And sometimes (rarely indeed) sphere hits also us: in general we have a lot of CMC1 spells, instant or not, we lose the speed of that part of the deck.
So I thought this: let's try the opposite way, not slow them but accelerate us a little. Elvish Spirit Guide it's nice: it's a turn 2 S&T, turn 1 pyroclasm, turn 2 kozilek's return, turn 3/4 titan. And against infect it's a nice suprise when he plays daze.
Does anyone try this?

Seems questionable. ESG is only good on the first couple turns, then it's basically just a dead card. Sphere isn't terrible on the draw, especially against Storm. And Elves isn't going to Glimpse on T2, so you've got time to drop it.

Besides, we just got a powerful new weapon against Elves and Infect (along with most decks). Warping Wail's first mode hits almost every creature in either deck, and its second mode counters Natural Order, Glimpse, and GSZ. It's colorless, so Apostle's Blessing doesn't effect it. And if you do it in response to Infect's first pump spell, you have the possibility of a 2-for-1.


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[Morden]

Seems questionable. ESG is only good on the first couple turns, then it's basically just a dead card. Sphere isn't terrible on the draw, especially against Storm. And Elves isn't going to Glimpse on T2, so you've got time to drop it.

Besides, we just got a powerful new weapon against Elves and Infect (along with most decks). Warping Wail's first mode hits almost every creature in either deck, and its second mode counters Natural Order, Glimpse, and GSZ. It's colorless, so Apostle's Blessing doesn't effect it. And if you do it in response to Infect's first pump spell, you have the possibility of a 2-for-1.


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probably you are right, in fact I already have a lot of responses against those decks, I can rely less on spheres. My only concern with ESG is that it's useless if you don't have something else in hand....
hands like glimmer, sensei, fecth, needle, titan, ESG, eldrazi would be much much better if there were a sphere in place of the ESG.

[Rock Lee]

Hi guys, some help.
I want to discuss Sphere of resistance in sideboard. In particular how this card works against burn, elves, storm, infect.
As we all know, it's very good on the play, but on the draw is annoying: opponent has already played 2 turn with no resistance, and I consider this a lot (that's why I don't like trinisphere). And sometimes (rarely indeed) sphere hits also us: in general we have a lot of CMC1 spells, instant or not, we lose the speed of that part of the deck.
So I thought this: let's try the opposite way, not slow them but accelerate us a little. Elvish Spirit Guide it's nice: it's a turn 2 S&T, turn 1 pyroclasm, turn 2 kozilek's return, turn 3/4 titan. And against infect it's a nice suprise when he plays daze.
Does anyone try this?

I have been testing ESG actually, and enjoying it. still banging down a list with OGW though.

[Zotmaster]

I have been testing ESG actually, and enjoying it. still banging down a list with OGW though.

No regrets on Warping Wail so far. Still trying to fit Kozilek, the Great Distortion in mono-G, although I'm less certain it works there. I'm really liking two Nulamogs as well the more I run two.

[Lord Seth]

This is a bit of a random aside. But seriously, the summer bloom / splinter twin banning is why I don't play Modern.The Summer Bloom banning was not particularly unreasonable, and it was seen coming by most players. Even if one could claim that, objectively speaking, the deck was okay, there was a whole lot of dislike against it, and even a lot of players of the deck said it was a problem. When the guy who wins an SCG Open with it decides to give a speech about why the deck needs a banning, that's an indication that there could be something wrong with it. At any rate, it's a ban that people saw coming and there was a fair amount of support for.

Twin, on the other hand, committed the terrible, awful, inexcusable offense of being... a good deck. Not an overpowered deck. Not a deck that won too fast. Just a good deck. That's what caused the uproar; it's rather inconsistent with their previous bannings, it's blatantly just to shake things up, and there wasn't much sentiment it was coming. And even if Twin was seen as overpowered, the proper ban would have been Deceiver Exarch, not Splinter Twin (this makes the deck more vulnerable to creature removal without neutering it too much). Not only did they ban a deck that needed no ban, they banned the wrong card from it! Even worse, Twin was a deck that encouraged interaction in the format (the best way to beat it is to have disruption!), so with it gone, the floodgates are open for the format to be populated by a bunch of decks that just want to ignore their opponent. Fun, fun, fun. It's fine for a format to have such decks, probably even a good thing, but a lot of people complained about Modern having too many of them, and Splinter Twin's banning is only going to exacerbate the issue.

Though this did have the effect of getting me interested in Legacy again and wanting to play some more with my 12-Post deck (as I greatly fear for my GR Tron deck getting banned now). I wonder if I should sell my Tron deck so I can finally pick up those Candelabras.


In Legacy, the value of your cards could ebb and wane, but for the most part, go up. In Modern, your entire deck could drop catastrophically on the whim of bad statistics. No deck builder wants to play in that format.Now this is actually where I disagree. I don't think it's a good thing that the value of your cards "for the most part go up" in Legacy. That's the thing that's making the format incapable of growth. Price decreases in Legacy would be a good thing for the forma

The problem with bannings is not sudden price decreases (which is the effect reprints have, which would be good). It's that your deck is no longer playable and is worth a lot less. I don't care if my Legacy's deck value drops in half if I can continue to play the thing.

All that said, in terms of value loss, the banning actually left the value of a Splinter Twin deck mostly intact. Things like the shocklands and fetchlands are still highly valuable. The only "exclusive" card to the deck that was worth much was Splinter Twin and even that still has some value to it. The bigger issue isn't the monetary loss (which really isn't that big, as noted the expensive stuff in the deck can go into other decks and thus loses little value), but the loss of time putting together the deck and gaining experience with it as well as the increased worry that a deck that depends more on cards exclusive to it (e.g. GR Tron as noted above) could eat a ban just because.

[bruizar]

@Lord Seth & Rock Lee
I wouldn't worry too much about modern value, take a hypothetical RG tron ban. The ramp creatures are played in Bx Eldrazi and legacy Turbo Eldrazi. Ugin is played in MUD. Ancient Stirrings is played in Lantern control. Oblivion Stone is an EDH staple that won't be going down any time soon either. Grove of the Burnwillows is the best RG land available in modern and its even better in legacy. Karn Liberated will probably go down, but EDH will keep it high.

There are now 2 good ramp mana bases in modern, so ramp is here to stay (Eye of Ugin + Urborg + Eldrazi temple and UrzaTron)

I was wondering if we could combine several of the thought leaders of legacy (nicfit/mud/turboeldrazi) and modern ramp decks (Bx Eldrazi/Eldrazi Processors/RG Tron) on a Facebook group (or some other place) to share insights across archetypes.

[Zotmaster]

Small sample size so far, but early returns on Warping Wail are extremely promising. In four games of streaming tonight, I've already cast it for each mode. So far I've exiled a Vendilion Clique and a Delver of Secrets, countered a Life from the Loam, and put down an idiot to block a Tarmogoyf and one to ramp into a Karn Liberated.

Only two casts of Kozilek, the Great Distortion so far. First time, he drew three cards and got countered. Second time, he drew five and countered a Swords to Plowshares, prompting a concession. Not enough information to really say either way yet.