[Deck] 12 Post

[Leshrac82]

I may give it a shot if/when I start streaming again. There are some concepts in there that I don't like - I hate the Depths/Stage combo - but overall it's definitely interesting. My schedule is always messed up but if I end up playing it, I'll definitely give you some feedback!

I look forward to it! :smile:

The Depths/Stage combo is imo stronger in my deck because i play Mox Diamond. If i don't want the Depths i can often discard it to a Mox, and if i want to combo i can often do that a turn faster when i have a Mox in play. Overall i often discard utility lands i don't want in the matchup to Mox Diamond. When i don't need the mana right away i usually don't play out my Mox until i have a better idea what i'm up against.


I tested your list extensively the same day you posted it. I thought I bopped back with my results.

I really missed brainstorm - In the Mono green version, you can just power through bricks stuck in your hand, but in this deck, if you are short on mana (many non-mana producing lands) with bricks, you lose. If you flood on mana (rare but happens, you don't have maps to dig you out of bad situations with eye. If your hand needs certain counterplay elements (Warping Wail, crop, EE) your ability to dig for them is often mana exhaustive without being profitable (no candelabra to recoup spent mana) All these problems brainstorm helps with tremendously.

The deck felt like Maverick - Maverick already has some huge issues of being KotR based, and I feel the same is true for this deck.

The deck could lose to other midrange/tempo - This is THE reason you go mono green. To have a near-bye to tempo/midrange builds. Your redundancy fights hymn/counters with light pressure, the entire theme of tempo. This deck though could have its legs cut out, with its greedy manabase and clunky cmc's of bricks.

All in all, I enjoyed testing the deck, but my person pet peeve of 12post builds is simply sacrificing matchups. Legacy has an unusually healthy meta at the moment, so perhaps this niche type of deck could belong in a less tempo focused deck (meta heavy in aggro or combo), but would have to change if the meta was extra combo heavy. Thus my prediction is that if Eldrazi Aggro becomes even stronger than it already is, this deck could merit more testing.

Thx for the feedback!

There are certainly situations where the deck just loses because without Brainstorm there isn't that much card selection, but that doesn't happen very often - i still have Top and i have a lot of tutors. I can't search up most of my counterplay elements, but there are usually enough useful cards to have some of them in hand postboard.

My midrange matchups feel ok to me. I don't have a great Delver matchup, but all the changes i made should help there and it feels like 50/50 now against BUG and Grixis Delver. I don't think other 12post builds are big favourites against these decks either? The deck isn't redundant in the sense of lots of 4-ofs, but all the creatures are capable of winning any game against midrange decks. Shardless BUG is certainly not a bye, but i think i'm at least slightly favored against them.


I recently proxied your list for playtesting purposes. My brother has most of these cards, so I might try to slam this together sometime soon.


How good are the explosives? The only time I've seen maindeck explosives is in Intuition Lands, which can recur them with Academy Ruins. (Would Academy Ruins be worth tossing in a trop? I'm guessing no, but being able to recur Crucible and Explosives might be really nice)



I only played one match so far, but the Horizon Canopy saved my bacon. The extra Titania elemental from sacrificing it let me survive the turn I needed to drop Emrakul. Although I can see the Sea Gate Ruins being a lot better when it gets grindier.

This list feels like an absolute powerhouse.

Is there much it can do against Imperial Painter? That's big in my meta. And you've said that it's favorable against storm, is there much to do besides grab glimmerposts and waste somethng?

The explosives have different applications:
1. They are good removal against aggressive starts from aggro/midrange decks. It's often a 2 for 1 or better and can buy a lot of time.
2. They are a maindeck answer to basically every problematic permanent. It's not that hard to get them out for 3 to kill a Liliana or a Blood Moon.

I had the explosives in the board for a long time, eventually i realized i boarded them in against most decks and would often want them in game 1.

I thought about about Academy Ruins, but i don't think the list can support another color.

The Horizon Canopy can in theory be a carddraw engine on its own with Crucible and Oracle out (and Gitrog and Titania add even more value). But in my games that either didn't come up, or when i had that boardstate it didn't matter any more, because the game was pretty much over anyway. I often had situations where i had a Canopy in play, both players didn't really have a board, i had no cards in hand and just wished that was a Sea Gate so i could draw additional cards for some turns. Drawing just one card with Canopy could help, but often i still didn't have that much mana and wasn't really sure if i wanted to sacrifice the land. And i also had situations where i wished the canopy were a forest to sacrifice to a Knight.

Painter is a strange matchup. On the one hand, they can shut down our deck pretty good, on the other hand, their combo doesn't work as long as Emrakul is in the deck (they usually have just 1-2 sideboard cards to deal with that). So far i only lost to this deck when they had Jaya Ballard and a lot of Red Blasts. Blood Moon just slows us down, they aren't really a deck that can capitalize on that.
Storm is very hard in Game 1, but gets a lot better postboard. Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog can stop the Past in Flames kill, Warping Wail can counter their critical spells (usually Infernal Tutor when they are hellbent, sometimes Dark Petition or if they play it Burning Wish, and Past in Flames if you don't have the crop). Some hateful permanents also buy time, they have answers to Leyline and Gaddock Teeg, but they have to find them. You can also kill them really fast with the Depths combo, going for a Crop Rotation into the combo at their endstep is a good way to keep up mana to interact if needed and still kill them the next turn. Most of my postboard games against Storm actually end when they go off with Ad Nauseam because they have to and don't find what they need.


Yes, it can lose to Midrange/tempo, however, it's still usually favourable. Personally I'm willing to turn a couple near-byes into still somewhat advantageous matches in order to make a lot of my bad matches better. (According to Leshrac82, that is. I don't know enough about traditional 12-post to know what its bad matches are...)

To make that clear, i don't know that much about traditional 12-post either. Most of my knowledge about it is from this thread and from talking to other 12post players i faced. That leads me to believe almost all combo decks are usually a bad matchup especially for non-blue lists, and going by my results that's certainly not true for this deck.


Maybe I'm playing the deck differently then you, but I was often going for knight. The deck is definitely fun to play, just less competitive than I like to build them. Weirdly, only a 66% win rate I consider unacceptable since it won't get you a Top 8 in a 100+ person event.

I'm often going for Knight too, if it lives it will probably win the game, but the deck can certainly win without it - the earlier versions of this deck didn't have a Knight and were not that much worse.

When i build the deck at first, it wasn't supposed to be that competitive. I was just trying to brew something fun to play that has a winrate close enough to 50%, but my results were just much better than i ever expected. The 66% winrate is what i can do with the deck right now, in a meta where Storm is the most played deck and Miracles doesn't even make the Top 10 (it's actually tied with Belcher for 11th place). And i don't think i'm that good - i certainly got better, especially with this deck, but i still make a lot of mistakes.

[TheBoozeCube]

In my C/g build, I've been running 2x All Is Dust and 2x Ugin main, 1x O-Stone, 2x Ratchet Bomb board. I'm thinking about swapping a Dust and either Bomb or O-Stone to improve my game 1 vs Eldrazi.

All Is Dust is much better than O-Stone in almost every other matchup. Aside from being cheaper (and the deck has more ways to hit 7 on T3 than 8), it leaves your Needles intact. Wiping the board with O-Stone leaves you open to Wasteland if you don't have time to put a fate counter on Needle. While there is something to be said for sticking an O-Stone early and threatening the wipe at instant speed, I prefer the one-sidedness of Dust. Miracles also needs a hard counter for Dust; while that's already our best matchup, it's a large enough chunk of the meta that I dislike giving up percentage against them. That said, it is just demoralizing to see Dust in your hand against Eldrazi; at least Ugin can kill Revokers and Mimics.

Moving a Bomb main also has merit. The primary problem with Eldrazi is Chalice. They can't interact with Pithing Needle any other way, and Maze of Ith is just amazing against them if you can turn off Wasteland. Bomb also is also infinitely better vs Storm than either Dust or O-Stone because you can drop it early and force (or at least threaten) awkward LED activations. It's also equally good at fighting Blood Moon as O-Stone, since you can pop for 3 as early as T5, whereas you need 7 actual land drops for Dust. On the other hand, Bomb is much worse than either of them against decks like Shardless that play threats at multiple costs. It's also more susceptible to Revoker than O-Stone, since you don't have the option to play and pop immediately (at least, not if you want to hit anything besides Chalice or tokens).

Thoughts? Which do people think is optimal to run main in the current meta?


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[MGB]

Who here is going to take 12Post to Eternal Extravaganza 4??

[MechTactical]

In my C/g build, I've been running 2x All Is Dust and 2x Ugin main, 1x O-Stone, 2x Ratchet Bomb board. I'm thinking about swapping a Dust and either Bomb or O-Stone to improve my game 1 vs Eldrazi.

All Is Dust is much better than O-Stone in almost every other matchup. Aside from being cheaper (and the deck has more ways to hit 7 on T3 than 8), it leaves your Needles intact. Wiping the board with O-Stone leaves you open to Wasteland if you don't have time to put a fate counter on Needle. While there is something to be said for sticking an O-Stone early and threatening the wipe at instant speed, I prefer the one-sidedness of Dust. Miracles also needs a hard counter for Dust; while that's already our best matchup, it's a large enough chunk of the meta that I dislike giving up percentage against them. That said, it is just demoralizing to see Dust in your hand against Eldrazi; at least Ugin can kill Revokers and Mimics.

Moving a Bomb main also has merit. The primary problem with Eldrazi is Chalice. They can't interact with Pithing Needle any other way, and Maze of Ith is just amazing against them if you can turn off Wasteland. Bomb also is also infinitely better vs Storm than either Dust or O-Stone because you can drop it early and force (or at least threaten) awkward LED activations. It's also equally good at fighting Blood Moon as O-Stone, since you can pop for 3 as early as T5, whereas you need 7 actual land drops for Dust. On the other hand, Bomb is much worse than either of them against decks like Shardless that play threats at multiple costs. It's also more susceptible to Revoker than O-Stone, since you don't have the option to play and pop immediately (at least, not if you want to hit anything besides Chalice or tokens).

Thoughts? Which do people think is optimal to run main in the current meta?


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i'm playing 3 bombs MB and find them helpful. With tombs they can come down t1. Paired with 3x MP in the board i feel favorite against the eldrazis lately. Not having to board in Kgrip is just great against chalice and besides eldrazi doesnt have a great game against SnT - plat / titan, which can consitently come down before knot in the build im running... However the bomb is lacking in some matchups like the mentioned shardless.
Agreed on task mage in painter - probably the worst card to see on the board

[MechTactical]

Okay so guess to which deck i lost 2 just now? yes you're right - Miracles !!
Guess which card the dude was playing in his SB? something for eldrazis... it was f*** Ruination. :eek: Didn't even know that existed. i guess the eldrazis are making much more problems for us compared to the card pool they brought us...
that card is just sick. okay if you expect it WW can help and you bring in flusters nevertheless Ruination is no laughing matter. has anyone encountered it lately?

[I'll Cast Ugin]

I've run into another miracles player running that card as well recently. I was tinkering around with an odd build at the time and had 10 basic forests in the list, and oddly drew most of them so it didn't ever get cast. My assessment was about the same as yours. We're catching a bit of hate meant for the eldrazi decks.

[Saab93]

Went 3-1 this week using Ehhh's Gw list with some slight differences.

R1: Win vs Aggro Loam 2-1.
R2: Win vs Grixis Control 2-1.
R3: Lose vs Affinity 0-2.
R4: Win vs Miracles 2-0.

List for reference:
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
4 vesuva
4 misty rainforest
3 forest
2 savannah
1 glacial chasm
1 tabernacle
1 cavern of souls
1 eye of ugin
1 karakas
1 khalni garden
1 bojuka bog
1 Thespian's stage

1 veteran explorer
3 thought-knot seer
4 primeval titan
1 kozilek, butcher of truth
1 ulamog, the ceaseless hunger
1 emrakul, the aeons torn

4 sensei's diving top
2 expedition map
1 candelabra of tawnos
1 sylvan library
4 crop rotation
3 warping wail
3 green sun's zenith
2 ugin, the spirit dragon

Board:
1 gaddock teeg
1 ethersworn canonist
1 chalice of the void
1 thorn of amethyst
1 sphere of resistance
1 trinisphere
2 rest in peace
1 sundering titan
1 cursed totem
1 elephant grass
1 choke
1 reclamation sage
2 krosan grip





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[mykatdied]

I had to put down 12 post for a couple weeks because the 3 miracles decks in my local meta started running that card. The unfortunate part was that my sacred ground curves perfectly with their lines of either tear or council's judgement into ruination. From the ashes was another they ran against me. That one didn't hurt as bad since I was on 4 basics and could rebuild a bit

[maCHOOga]

Yeah... I think it's a spalsh damage of the eldrazi menace. Remember you can warping wail them back! :-) Likewise, you know what Ruination/FtA is also good against? LANDS!

[TheBoozeCube]

@MechTactical What is MP?


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[Sisyphos]

@MechTactical What is MP?

Moment's Peace is the only thing I can come up with that makes sense.

[MechTactical]

@MechTactical What is MP?


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Moment's peace

[Corazu]

Curious to your Aluren and eldrazi losses. Details?

World Breaker is in the 4th Grip slot as an uncounterable grip with feet. Being devoid and reach is a bonus.

Aluren I lost game 1 because I just didn't have anything to fight him with, his deck looked somewhat like Shardless BUG until he dropped Aluren and then I died.

Game 2 I could have fizzled him with Engineered Explosives but I cracked it the wrong time. I had a discussion with him after to find the right line on where to fizzle him and I think I have a better grasp of it now, it really just comes down to I had no idea how to pilot that matchup. It still feels like a not great matchup, especially game 1 unless I happen to stumble into EE in time

My first Eldrazi loss came down to a close game 3 where I had an Ensnaring Bridge holding off a bunch of 2 power creatures (and higher). So much so that he used Warping Wail for a 1/1 to beat me with. I was stuck with an uncastable Primeval Titan in hand since I had 4 lands. I cracked an Expedition Map to grab the 2nd Green Mana and I drew a Primeval Titan so I had 2 in hand, I was at 14, he hit for for 7. I had 5 lands on the field, all the colors to cast a Titan, so I needed to draw an Untapped land. I drew a Cloudpost, and died.

The 2nd match where I lost I got rolled over game 1, then game 2 got an early Glacial Chasm down. With Top active, had an Ensnaring Bridge sitting on top - but I didn't even consider his Thoughtknot Seer + Eldrazi Displacer, which on my draw step after me going into the tank about whether to keep Chasm (at 12 life would have gone to 8) he promptly activated Displacer to blink TKS, taking my Bridge. I had let Chasm go because I knew I would land Bridge and that would buy me more than enough time and the extra 4 life could be needed later. The chasm wasn't the misplay, the not floating Bridge 3rd was the misplay.

I don't remember enough of the other details, but Bridge is very good in this matchup, and one I got unlucky, and the other I brutally misplayed.

[k_omega]

Yeah... I think it's a spalsh damage of the eldrazi menace. Remember you can warping wail them back! :-) Likewise, you know what Ruination/FtA is also good against? LANDS!

Ruination is one of the reasons I keep Sacred Ground in the sideboard, and why I put Warping Wail back in after a brief period without any. The card demands respect.

[MechTactical]

Aluren I lost game 1 because I just didn't have anything to fight him with, his deck looked somewhat like Shardless BUG until he dropped Aluren and then I died.

Game 2 I could have fizzled him with Engineered Explosives but I cracked it the wrong time. I had a discussion with him after to find the right line on where to fizzle him and I think I have a better grasp of it now, it really just comes down to I had no idea how to pilot that matchup. It still feels like a not great matchup, especially game 1 unless I happen to stumble into EE in time

My first Eldrazi loss came down to a close game 3 where I had an Ensnaring Bridge holding off a bunch of 2 power creatures (and higher). So much so that he used Warping Wail for a 1/1 to beat me with. I was stuck with an uncastable Primeval Titan in hand since I had 4 lands. I cracked an Expedition Map to grab the 2nd Green Mana and I drew a Primeval Titan so I had 2 in hand, I was at 14, he hit for for 7. I had 5 lands on the field, all the colors to cast a Titan, so I needed to draw an Untapped land. I drew a Cloudpost, and died.

The 2nd match where I lost I got rolled over game 1, then game 2 got an early Glacial Chasm down. With Top active, had an Ensnaring Bridge sitting on top - but I didn't even consider his Thoughtknot Seer + Eldrazi Displacer, which on my draw step after me going into the tank about whether to keep Chasm (at 12 life would have gone to 8) he promptly activated Displacer to blink TKS, taking my Bridge. I had let Chasm go because I knew I would land Bridge and that would buy me more than enough time and the extra 4 life could be needed later. The chasm wasn't the misplay, the not floating Bridge 3rd was the misplay.

I don't remember enough of the other details, but Bridge is very good in this matchup, and one I got unlucky, and the other I brutally misplayed.

interesting. I wouldn't say it wasn't a brutal misplay. it's not that easy to see that interaction if you didn't encounter it b4.
I'm having quite a blast playing against d eldrazis since i feel i'm favorite with the current list. I'm more worried about all the "eldrazi land hate" going around these days.

[Rock Lee]

interesting. I wouldn't say it wasn't a brutal misplay. it's not that easy to see that interaction if you didn't encounter it b4.
I'm having quite a blast playing against d eldrazis since i feel i'm favorite with the current list. I'm more worried about all the "eldrazi land hate" going around these days.

I am very surprised that noone here has seen Ruination/Crumble to Dust here before. The local Miracle players in my meta have been playing ruination for over 3+ years. I had just assumed it was known information. Granted, the people concerned about this are mostly all running non-blue variants, and flusterstorm/swan song is almost always your trump vs them.

Perhaps this is just due to my teammate being hellbent on providing the most nightmarish meta decks possible for me, and always includes some backbreaking hate in their sideboard for me to deal with.

[Zotmaster]

I am very surprised that noone here has seen Ruination/Crumble to Dust here before. The local Miracle players in my meta have been playing ruination for over 3+ years. I had just assumed it was known information. Granted, the people concerned about this are mostly all running non-blue variants, and flusterstorm/swan song is almost always your trump vs them.

Perhaps this is just due to my teammate being hellbent on providing the most nightmarish meta decks possible for me, and always includes some backbreaking hate in their sideboard for me to deal with.

From the Ashes is also a thing.

[Rock Lee]

Got 5th at Bunch of Duals 57 person event locally with this list:

// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ON] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [R] Forest (3)

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
2 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [US] Show and Tell
2 [10E] Pithing Needle
3 [OGW] Warping Wall
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [ZEN] Expedition Map
1 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
1 [CMD] Oblivion Stone

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [JGC] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [OGW] World Breaker
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 1 [LG] Sylvan Library


Swiss was vs Pox (2-0), Grixis (2-1), Dnt (2-0), Shardless Bug (1-2), Shardless Bug (2-0), Eldrazi Aggro (2-0)

Top 8 Loss vs Miracles. Horrible horrible puntsx2 on my part. Most shameful loss vs Miracles to date. Didn't get Chasm + Eye of Ugin off a Titan Game 1. and Game 2 after eot Grip'ing Blood Moon, didn't Exile red source with World Breaker to stop their 2nd blood moon, which they then dropped.

The deck and build did great, my play was sloppy. Still, got a Trop for my troubles.

[Sidneyious]

Curious, y'all run a karakas but no white spell? How often do you actually use it just for bounce?
Wouldn't you want to make use of that white source for some white spell?

I realize it's mostly irrelevant but I just hate the idea of using a land for just half its effect.

[Zotmaster]

Curious, y'all run a karakas but no white spell? How often do you actually use it just for bounce?
Wouldn't you want to make use of that white source for some white spell?

I realize it's mostly irrelevant but I just hate the idea of using a land for just half its effect.

It's a huge effect though. It allows you to board Emrakul Airlines, where you take all of the turns for the rest of the game. A very classic play is Titan > Cloudpost and Eye, next Titan activation gets Cloudpost and Karakas, tutor up Emrakul and the game is over.

And it does have random utility against random stuff that pisses you off. Lands can't win with Karakas out. It can bounce Griselbrand, other Emrakuls, or even Thalia.

[Cyborg]

Top 16 at Legacy Classic! We in it boys.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=104212
Only thing I would probably change would be to take out the platinum imperion for something not sure what but I never actually ended up using it throughout the weekend for anything other than laughs after I had already won.

Oh right I lost to miracles game 1 venser karakas land lock into nahiri blow up my candelabra into emrakul game 2 he played a moat and I drew into nothing useful while he beat me over the top with clique
annnd mono U omnishow game 1 I land a titan into eye cloudpost with enough mana to fish out emrakul on his endstep and he dreamhalls cunning wish into firemind insight intuition omniscience emrakul plus jace bouncing his own emrakul for enough turns to win
game 2 thought-knot seer into a hand full of duplicates pass and he snt's into omniscience enter the infinite dreamhalls shenanigans on turn 5 shake hands and play a few more for fun.

[maCHOOga]

Just a quick report from EE4...I started out the day with GW 12post 0-1-1 but rallied back to 6-2-1, (although technically 5-2-2). Here are my quick notes:

Round 1 Sneak and Show, Loss 0-1-0:

Game 1 involved a show and tell where I put in a primetime to a grislebrand. Primetime won that race. :-)
Game 2 ended in a sneak attack from grislebrand into draw 14 into petal, emrakul.
Game 3 ended quickly with a turn two show and tell. My options of cards to put into play were... Primeval Titan, Emrakul or Reclaimation Sage. I chose Emrakul, he chose Omniscience into cast Grislbrand into draw 7 into Emrakul. I'm not sure what the right play was in that scenario. I'm going to say potentially Rec Sage, but if he put in Emrakul, I would have looked like a big dummy.

Round 2 RB Goblins, Draw? 0-1-1: Gummed up the first game so much that I pulled out a victory while chewing up ~40 minutes on the clock. The second game lasted less than 5. Glacial chasm and lifegain yielded the draw. I needed a few more turns to turn the corner.
Round 3, Grixis Painter Win 1-1-1. Leyline of Sanctity prevented me from dying for multiple turns. Card is fantastic! I also warping wailed a painter servant back to shadowmoor where it belongs.
Round 4, Death and Taxes, Win 2-1-1.
Round 5, Miracles, Win 3-1-1.
Round 6, Food Chain, Loss 3-2-1.

Won Game 1 only because I thoughtknot seered away the tidespout tyrannt.
Lost Games 2 and 3. Game 3 resulted in a mulligan to 5. I resolved a turn 2 Choke, but failed to draw additional lands for multiple turns. Eventually my

Round 7, Death and Taxes, Win 4-2-1.
Round 8, Naya Good Stuff, Win 5-2-1.
Round 9, Imperial Taxes. Intentational Draw for credit.

Ehhh's base list with the following SB.
2 Choke
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuga Bog
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Rest in Peace
1 Reclaimation Sage
1 Krosan Grip

Cut CoP: Red because i decided to just Dodge burn. It worked!

[MechTactical]

Top 16 at Legacy Classic! We in it boys.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=104212
Only thing I would probably change would be to take out the platinum imperion for something not sure what but I never actually ended up using it throughout the weekend for anything other than laughs after I had already won.

Oh right I lost to miracles game 1 venser karakas land lock into nahiri blow up my candelabra into emrakul game 2 he played a moat and I drew into nothing useful while he beat me over the top with clique
annnd mono U omnishow game 1 I land a titan into eye cloudpost with enough mana to fish out emrakul on his endstep and he dreamhalls cunning wish into firemind insight intuition omniscience emrakul plus jace bouncing his own emrakul for enough turns to win
game 2 thought-knot seer into a hand full of duplicates pass and he snt's into omniscience enter the infinite dreamhalls shenanigans on turn 5 shake hands and play a few more for fun.

Congrats on the finish!
Interesting list, somewhat similar to what I'm running. Aren't you missing at least one more target for SnT in the list? i've moved up to 2x plat MB and now i have 6 valid targets + emrakul...

[Cyborg]

Honestly I replaced the mb platinum imperions for ancient stirrings they let me dig for gas super hard. Random thought I had tho while thinking about what I would like as another snt target why not tidespout tyrant? We have a butt ton of mana and sensei's chain would be super easy to just run away with the field at that point. and we can hard cast it.

[MechTactical]

Honestly I replaced the mb platinum imperions for ancient stirrings they let me dig for gas super hard. Random thought I had tho while thinking about what I would like as another snt target why not tidespout tyrant? We have a butt ton of mana and sensei's chain would be super easy to just run away with the field at that point. and we can hard cast it.

I was wondering about other SnT targets as well. Maybe tyrant could be a viable SnT target, though i have second thoughts about hard casting it since i'm often mana screwed anyway. I'm happy to get the 1x U for SnT :laugh: I can't imagine consistently hitting 3xU without some-sort of additional fixing... furthermore plat serves as a MB plan against the likes of burn, storm, eldrazis, goblins, UR delver, merfolk, elves, ... basically anything that can hit you for lethal fast, except infect of course... i don't see tyrant replacing plat in these match-ups?

[TheBoozeCube]

Curious, y'all run a karakas but no white spell? How often do you actually use it just for bounce?
Wouldn't you want to make use of that white source for some white spell?

I realize it's mostly irrelevant but I just hate the idea of using a land for just half its effect.

I'd prefer if Karakas tapped for colorless, but it doesn't matter. The effect is incredibly powerful. It's an easily tutorable answer to major threats out of multiple decks. And you haven't lived until you've drawn 16 cards in one turn off Kozilek or exiled an opponent's entire board with Ulamog. Or going to turns and then taking four of them with Emrakul (I had to make extra land drops to take out double Bridge).


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[Zotmaster]

Possible new spoiler of the latest incarnation of everyone's favorite spaghetti monster:

http://i.imgur.com/XvXnFaO.jpg

It's on Mythic Spoiler so it might actually be real. I'll end up brewing with it, but man, as a deck that actually produces the mana to cast, this is a huge letdown.

[cwcomposer]

The new Emrakul is confirmed in WotC's official YouTube video.

What do we think?

[Zotmaster]

The new Emrakul is confirmed in WotC's official YouTube video.

What do we think?

At first glance it looks awful. The one little perk to it is that its abilities are such that decks that cheat it into play almost certainly wouldn't use it, which means that Post is probably the deck that would get the most out of it. It's all going to come down to how fast we can cast it and how much damage we can do on the turn we steal.

Like I said, I'll end up brewing with it, but I'm hoping it's much better than I think it is.

[cwcomposer]

I'm trying to think of "After that turn, that player takes an extra turn" as that the "extra" turn is an inserted one where you can mess up your opponent's plan. Your opponent isn't getting an "extra" turn, YOU are. They're getting their normal turn but only after you controlled all their stuff and screwed up their game plan for a turn.

Immediately ask to see their sideboard and hope they just concede. Suicide attack their biggest creature into Emrakul. Cast any sorcery-speed removal on something of theirs, not yours. Have fun with any other spells they might hold. Skip their land drop.

Plus, it can't be that hard for us to get two card types in our 'yard (land and artifact), which means that with Eye of Ugin new Emrakul costs only 9 mana. Doesn't seem so bad to me.

The big question: is it better than what we're already doing?

[Rock Lee]

Possible new spoiler of the latest incarnation of everyone's favorite spaghetti monster:

http://i.imgur.com/XvXnFaO.jpg

It's on Mythic Spoiler so it might actually be real. I'll end up brewing with it, but man, as a deck that actually produces the mana to cast, this is a huge letdown.

I will definitely be running this card. Mindslaver is back and with a vengeance.

This card should never cost more than 8, Making a deck where your Top end is Emrakul 15 and your mid range is Emrakul 7-9.

Could promote All is Dust in a non-eldrazi aggro meta, although EmrakulSlaver/Mindrakul ruins every single deck in the meta atm. I cannot contain my enthusiasm as someone who has debated running the card mindslaver always and played Control Slaver for 4+ years prior to playing Legacy.

[Rock Lee]

Two possible extra-turn preventing cards to speculate on:

Stranglehold
The better of these two. I have been testing red already recently, and this plays into a kozilek's return concept well, but does scarce little against aggro. More details pending. a 6$ card atm, I can see it going to a 8-9$ post Eldritch Moon


Ugin's Nexus
"On color," but obviously has the enormous flaw of Stopping 15 emrakul's most important ability. I only mention it because the card is a 20 cent card, and will go up in value, if anything for decks against us, even if only to a 40 cent card. There is an outlier deck design concept in here with ichor/mycosynth wellsprings and hangerback walkers with sacrifice outlets. But this has always been a theoretical deck concept, and would need heavy tuning.

With either of these cards in play, you take infinite mindslavers with Mindrakul.

[maCHOOga]

At first when I saw it and watched the video I was like...what a mish-mash of abilities. You bet I'm going to try a one of! Here's my initial thoughts:


Typically we have an assortment of instants, lands and artifacts in the yard, not to mention what interation our opponent does. On average the CMC is probably around 10, less eye of Ugin sets us at 8. Basically the hypothetical cost would be that of Nulamog.
Seems kind of OP with tabernacle, since you can elect not to pay for any creatures.
It can be countered, it has protection from instants when on the battlefield.
The ultimate dream is to play ANT for ANT and stormthemselves off.
Everytime I've ever resolved a mindslaver, I've won. This is a tutorable mindslaver.
You can attack their biggest threat into Emrakul. If you opponent has a Jitte, fun things will happen.
Painted stone can mill themselves out and lose on their free turn. Likewise, JTMS and Liliana ultimates will cause your opponent to lose immediately.



Regardless, this card will be the future of bad beats stories to come!

[Ralf]

At first when I saw it and watched the video I was like...what a mish-mash of abilities. You bet I'm going to try a one of! Here's my initial thoughts:


Typically we have an assortment of instants, lands and artifacts in the yard, not to mention what interation our opponent does. On average the CMC is probably around 10, less eye of Ugin sets us at 8. Basically the hypothetical cost would be that of Nulamog.
Seems kind of OP with tabernacle, since you can elect not to pay for any creatures.
It can be countered, it has protection from instants when on the battlefield.
The ultimate dream is to play ANT for ANT and stormthemselves off.
Everytime I've ever resolved a mindslaver, I've won. This is a tutorable mindslaver.
You can attack their biggest threat into Emrakul. If you opponent has a Jitte, fun things will happen.
Painted stone can mill themselves out and lose on their free turn. Likewise, JTMS and Liliana ultimates will cause your opponent to lose immediately.



Regardless, this card will be the future of bad beats stories to come!

It can also be reanimated...

[Darkenslight]

At first when I saw it and watched the video I was like...what a mish-mash of abilities. You bet I'm going to try a one of! Here's my initial thoughts:


Typically we have an assortment of instants, lands and artifacts in the yard, not to mention what interation our opponent does. On average the CMC is probably around 10, less eye of Ugin sets us at 8. Basically the hypothetical cost would be that of Nulamog.
Seems kind of OP with tabernacle, since you can elect not to pay for any creatures.
It can be countered, it has protection from instants when on the battlefield.
The ultimate dream is to play ANT for ANT and stormthemselves off.
Everytime I've ever resolved a mindslaver, I've won. This is a tutorable mindslaver.
You can attack their biggest threat into Emrakul. If you opponent has a Jitte, fun things will happen.
Painted stone can mill themselves out and lose on their free turn. Likewise, JTMS and Liliana ultimates will cause your opponent to lose immediately.



Regardless, this card will be the future of bad beats stories to come!

IT also has Protections from Farming and Wipe Away.

I'm pretty certain it warrants testing, but I'm thinking it's not that good, when compared to NUlamog and NuZilek..

[Rock Lee]

It can also be reanimated...

Still legendary and has no attack trigger. Not better than a griselbrand.

[Rock Lee]

I can definitely see Conduit of Ruin finally get a place/role in either mono green or U/g lists with a mini-emrakul now available.

[caw_86]

Won a 51 player scg Super IQ this Sunday

1-0 lossett miracles
2-0 reanimator
2-1 aluren
3-1 DnT
4-1 merfolk
5-1 lands
Top 8
6-1 burn
7-1 aluren
8-1 shardless bug



// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Island
1 [IA] forest
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Khalni Garden
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [AVR] cavern of souls

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Ceaseless hunger
2 [OGW] Worldbreaker
1 [5DN] trinket mage



// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [OGW] Warping Wail
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [GP] Repeal
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [AQ] Candelabra of tawnos
2 [US] Show and Tell
1 [SoK] Pithing Needle
2 [ODY] moment's peace



// Sideboard
SB: 1 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 1 [5DN] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [M13] Thragtusk
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan grip
SB: 1 [FS] Venser, shaper savant

will edit later, im at work

[Rock Lee]

Won a 51 player scg Super IQ this Sunday

1-0 lossett miracles
2-0 reanimator
2-1 aluren
3-1 DnT
4-1 merfolk
5-1 lands
Top 8
6-1 burn
7-1 aluren
8-1 shardless bug



// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Island
1 [IA] forest
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Khalni Garden
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [AVR] cavern of souls

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Ceaseless hunger
2 [OGW] Worldbreaker
1 [5DN] trinket mage



// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [OGW] Warping Wail
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [GP] Repeal
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [AQ] Candelabra of tawnos
2 [US] Show and Tell
1 [SoK] Pithing Needle
2 [ODY] moment's peace



// Sideboard
SB: 1 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 1 [5DN] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [M13] Thragtusk
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan grip
SB: 1 [FS] Venser, shaper savant

will edit later, im at work

Congrats! I like that crazy sideboard. How relevant was Force over more grips? If you weren't siding in Beb, you are at very low blue count.

[Cyborg]

How often did you end up bringing in the Venser me and a friend were contemplating him as he can also be used as repeatable wasteland protection.

[caw_86]

How often did you end up bringing in the Venser me and a friend were contemplating him as he can also be used as repeatable wasteland protection.

I hadn't really played the deck in a while I had played with one world breaker and knew I wanted another, they are amazing. And I warping wail is all around great, plugs the holes with a lot of weak match ups

SB kind of a hodge podge. Would cut venser for second grip. The venser really isn't needed with Worldbreaker and ulamog exiling pesky permanents now

The forces usually come in with the BEB, burn, sneak and show, storm, aluren, painter, belcher. Other times I never have an issue with the blue count, swan song, and flusterstorm usually also come in with the forces

[Mockingbird]

At first glance it looks awful. The one little perk to it is that its abilities are such that decks that cheat it into play almost certainly wouldn't use it, which means that Post is probably the deck that would get the most out of it. It's all going to come down to how fast we can cast it and how much damage we can do on the turn we steal.

Like I said, I'll end up brewing with it, but I'm hoping it's much better than I think it is.

The issue with Emrakul 2 is that it's been safety tested so players can't go infinite with it in Commander, and consequently… we can't either with Karakas. Mindslave is a beast, and with a 13/13 body to run their creatures (if we get it through Force of Will), it's something we can use to screw with a lot of matches. However, unlike Time Walking someone (Maybe Time Stomp is more appropriate term for Emrakul), slaving someone has the issue of we need to rely on our opponent to maximize the effect, and that sometimes comes with varying mileage.

I plan on testing it as well though, although I'm probably going to just stick it in my Legends MUD. I'm not sure when this would be more useful than Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger or Kozilek, the Great Distortion because this Emrakul was clearly designed down from its first incarnation rather than up (Ulamog) or laterally (Kozilek). And note, please don't take this comparison to mean that the Promised End is by any means •bad•. In legacy, it likely comes out the cheapest of any Legendary Eldrazi and while Milage may vary may be a thing with the cast trigger, we still get to punish our opponent by playing the game for them.

[Leshrac82]

My first thoughts about Emrakul 2 are similar: It's probably not ideal for existing 12-Post decks. (There is no way that card would get a slot in my current build.)

But it could be useful in specific situations, mostly against combo decks. Problem is: You have to be able to reliably tutor it up, and when you get Eye of Ugin running it's probably too late most of the time, we want to cast it on curve if at all. There are situations where i need to cast Ulamog before Emrakul can finish the game, but i can't really imagine a situation where i want to cast new Emrakul before old Emrakul when i have the mana to do either.

The best use i can currently see would be a build similar to Legend MUD with a relatively large numer of big Eldrazi and some Conduit of Ruin (seems to be the best option) to search up whichever one we need. If a deck like that is good remains to be seen, and if new Emrakul is good enough in that deck is also unclear. But that's where i would start my testing.

[Sidneyious]

It's a huge effect though. It allows you to board Emrakul Airlines, where you take all of the turns for the rest of the game. A very classic play is Titan > Cloudpost and Eye, next Titan activation gets Cloudpost and Karakas, tutor up Emrakul and the game is over.

And it does have random utility against random stuff that pisses you off. Lands can't win with Karakas out. It can bounce Griselbrand, other Emrakuls, or even Thalia.
All good reasonings but I feel most the time it sits there as a generic.
I find the new amikool to be very weak. I'd rather play original slaver lock and sooner.

[mykatdied]

All good reasonings but I feel most the time it sits there as a generic.

This deck uses plenty of generic mana which usually won't result in an issue. There are occasions where we will have an awkward opening hand as a result, but the amount of utility we get out of it is more than enough use. In this deck it's better to think of karakas as a utility land rather than a mana source. The fact it does tap for mana is most irrelevant as the effect is something we want to have in the deck regardless.

[Cyborg]

new emrakul seems awful except as sideboard hate against combo.... In our current form

[Leshrac82]

Well, talking about a way to reliably tutor up Eldrazi ...

https://i.imgur.com/7U0F059.jpg

This could just be what a toolbox deck with many different big Eldrazi needs?

[203995014]

Well, talking about a way to reliably tutor up Eldrazi ...

https://i.imgur.com/7U0F059.jpg

This could just be what a toolbox deck with many different big Eldrazi needs?

Aside from All is Dust there is nothing we would want to fetch with this card that Living Wish doesn't already get.

[Cyborg]

numbers is right why not living wish? we already make green and the only time we would really be using this would be after a swords hits an ulamog or someone helm combos us at which point we just lose on turn pass anyways would be cool to have an all is dust as well but if we're doing that we have to actually be running all is dust

[hymnyou]

nice work caw_86! Great to see deck do well in paper. Very few paper pilots out there.
New emrakul seems really bad, and situational which is not what post wants. I dont understand how this slots better than all the other options that keep post either alive in emergency situations, or immediately finishing the game. This card just reads I want to cast big spell and play with my food.
Coax is pointless deck already runs eye which is far superior for the deck imo.

[mykatdied]

New Emrakul is perfectly fine in eternal formats.
Cons:
In standard he doesn't really do much vs aggro decks as they still get the next turn and play almost 0 removal spells, plus are low to the ground.

He doesn't flat out give us an extra turn. Let's face it, that part is broken and likely shouldn't have existed in the first place given his other stats.

He "might" cost upwards of 13 mana.

Pros:
He can cost as little as 5 mana, likely 9 at maximum though.

In legacy and other eternal formats where there are creatures and creature removal he can give us a ton of power to really swing a match in our favor. We can make Storm basically kill itself, we can cantrip and completely wreck our opponent's top decks, we can cast creatures and possibly remove them, make our opponent waste pump spells, etc. In rare situations we make our opponent wasteland themselves, tick Vial up too high, run creatures into Emrakul to kill them etc.

It is still a 13/13 with flying, trample, pro instant spells for likely 9/10 mana. It is potentially a fine gap between nulamog and old emrakul.

[Rock Lee]

Went undefeated in local weekly event with a modified caw list:

// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ON] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [TSP] Vesuva
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [R] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [FD] Trinket Mage
2 [OGW] World Breaker

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [US] Show and Tell
3 [OGW] Warping Wall
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
1 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
2 [OD] Moment's Peace
2 [MM2] Repeal

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [JGC] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 [MMA] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [LG] Sylvan Library


Oh how I have missed Repeal so very much. I cast repeal 7 times in 6 of my 9 games and it was glorious every time.

Matchups were Burn, Dredge, Grixis, Sneaky Omni.

I enjoyed the build. Didn't miss Force. World Breaker was surprisingly hugely important. Sylvan Library continues to be extremely poorly timed. Every time I have drawn it I wished it was a Gitaxian Probe and not a card that makes me tap out for maybe something next turn, and yet it still remains a card that digs me into sideboard cards and fights null rod's oppression post side.


Also I did some brief testing with Emrakul, the Promised End, and the card is monsterously strong. I have never lost a game I cast it in, and the build I have been messing with has me casting it for 6-7.

[mykatdied]

Glad to hear testing with Emrakul, the Promised End has been good. I would think something possibly with Traverse the Ulvenwald could be viable, since the requirement for "delirium" almost goes from one to the other for value? Traverse may just be too cute though? I have spent all day defending the new Emrakul so it is good to hear some decent testing since earlier today when it was spoiled. I will likely test after SCG Worcester.

[Hopo]

Also I did some brief testing with Emrakul, the Promised End, and the card is monsterously strong. I have never lost a game I cast it in, and the build I have been messing with has me casting it for 6-7.

This reminds me of the Times when you told you'll play 4 x Deathrite Shaman until it's banning.

New Emrakul is lacking in inevitability so it's safe to predict it won't replace the old one.

[Postman]

Can someone write a few lines about World Breaker? I can't see why to pay 7 mana to solve one problem. Usually I only need Krosan Grip game 2.

Gesendet von meinem LG-H961N mit Tapatalk

[Rock Lee]

This reminds me of the Times when you told you'll play 4 x Deathrite Shaman until it's banning.

New Emrakul is lacking in inevitability so it's safe to predict it won't replace the old one.

Well, DRS has always kept a place in Mono Green lists. All the Mono Green lists oscillate between 0-2 so the card does deserve merit. Amusingly, I was running DRS in the list I was testing as it nearly guarantees that you have creature type in the graveyard.

Regarding Emrakul, the Promised End, I don't feel a need to defend the card. I will jam this card harder than strawberry in my deck exclusively for its effect, which I have outwardly stated I wanted since mid 2010. I will caution though, that like most components of this deck, a poor understanding of the meta and other decks will make this deck and therefore this card progressively weaker. Knowing how to Mindslaver someone is an art and not everyone is up to the task.


Can someone write a few lines about World Breaker? I can't see why to pay 7 mana to solve one problem. Usually I only need Krosan Grip game 2.

Gesendet von meinem LG-H961N mit Tapatalk

Worldbreaker is there as a meat-shield. In Hearthstone he would have Taunt. I would say 40-50% of the time I play him I exile a land. 30-40% an artifact (null rod, chalice, shardless agent, Revoker, Vial, Equipment, Pithing needle, top that flips) and 10-20% an enchantment (vortex, eidalon, blood moon, sneak attack, sylvan library).

The kicker is against non-blue, he is an enormous pain to deal with. stopping the aggression of nearly every creature in the format. You can also be more aggressive with your mana ramp since you know you will be unmolested. Krosan Grip however, is a huge brick vs most non-blue decks with aggro components. (Eldrazi Aggro and Burn being the biggest culprits here).

Against blue decks, it still does minor damage, sometimes its only role and the same duty as Krosan Grip. But unlike Krosan Grip, after doing its duty, it either gets countered (loss of advantage for them) and then has recursion, or it sticks around versus decks not meant to beat a wall.

In my version of Caw's list, I run 4 Krosan Grip sb, and 2 World Breaker main, which seems to speak directly to your point of contention regarding Krosan Grip's validity. Grip is there for sideboard cards, but World Breaker hits every deck somehow even pre-sideboard. A rare opportunity where a card could merit a maindeck or sideboard spot.

[caw_86]

Went undefeated in local weekly event with a modified caw list:

// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ON] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [TSP] Vesuva
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [R] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [FD] Trinket Mage
2 [OGW] World Breaker

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [US] Show and Tell
3 [OGW] Warping Wall
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
1 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
2 [OD] Moment's Peace
2 [MM2] Repeal

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [JGC] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 [MMA] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [LG] Sylvan Library


Oh how I have missed Repeal so very much. I cast repeal 7 times in 6 of my 9 games and it was glorious every time.

Matchups were Burn, Dredge, Grixis, Sneaky Omni.

I enjoyed the build. Didn't miss Force. World Breaker was surprisingly hugely important. Sylvan Library continues to be extremely poorly timed. Every time I have drawn it I wished it was a Gitaxian Probe and not a card that makes me tap out for maybe something next turn, and yet it still remains a card that digs me into sideboard cards and fights null rod's oppression post side.


Also I did some brief testing with Emrakul, the Promised End, and the card is monsterously strong. I have never lost a game I cast it in, and the build I have been messing with has me casting it for 6-7.


Repealing candelabra is my favorite

3 times at my event people just attacked right into Worldbreaker with angels, blazing archon, and clique. Having deck answers to just about everything is nice, frees up some sideboard slots and is a road block to just about everything in the format

[Rock Lee]

Repealing candelabra is my favorite

3 times at my event people just attacked right into Worldbreaker with angels, blazing archon, and clique. Having deck answers to just about everything is nice, frees up some sideboard slots and is a road block to just about everything in the format

I did no candelabra Repealing sadly. It also is one of my favorite plays. My repeals were Topx4, Narcomoeba, zombie token, Eidalon, but the options for bouncing candelabra were there, just not the optimal play at the time, to no discredit of candelabra, I was simply at absurd mana already.

Against burn I had board state of 2x Primeval Titans, Ulamog, 2x World Breaker, behind a Glacial chasm, to exile all of his lands before attacking. World Breaker being clutch here.

[caw_86]

I did no candelabra Repealing sadly. It also is one of my favorite plays. My repeals were Topx4, Narcomoeba, zombie token, Eidalon, but the options for bouncing candelabra were there, just not the optimal play at the time, to no discredit of candelabra, I was simply at absurd mana already.

Against burn I had board state of 2x Primeval Titans, Ulamog, 2x World Breaker, behind a Glacial chasm, to exile all of his lands before attacking. World Breaker being clutch here.

He looks so tame compared to the big eldrazi, but he literally does everything the deck needs. I don't think I'll ever run a list without him from now on

[TheBoozeCube]

New Emrakul seems very underwhelming to me. Her cast trigger is interesting, but super high variance since it depends entirely on what your opponent has at the time. It will frequently be a Probe that lets you look at sideboards but draws your opponent a card. Outside of messing with Storm, I don't see a real place for it in any existing build of the deck. It's so situational.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Neko448]

New Emrakul seems very underwhelming to me. Her cast trigger is interesting, but super high variance since it depends entirely on what your opponent has at the time. It will frequently be a Probe that lets you look at sideboards but draws your opponent a card. Outside of messing with Storm, I don't see a real place for it in any existing build of the deck. It's so situational.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Can't wait to cast this underneath you in the mirror and fail to find with some crop rotations~


I've been play testing and pretending a mb Platinum Emperion is the Promised End in order to better facilitate understanding the power and it just feels really immense. This is an incredible ability that is difficult to judge adequately. We are a deck that is often focused on "just one more turn, one more turn" and this plays into that quite well. Sure, they get to take an extra turn after being slaver'd, but it's often a turn that they would be wouldn't be killing us on anyways, and definitely won't be killing us on now (except when I had it against a hellbent DnT player where it was a bit underwhelming, but I just fetched Ulamog instead). I feel like at some point in the game we evolve into a toolbox deck and this is an awesome tool in our box which I'm excited to really try out. Also, this Emrakul is easy to cast up and down our curve. If you have an All is Dust, your list will often play every single cardtype in magic sans enchantments (which you also might have in Library, Elephant Grass)


While it's easy to dismiss this card because it is not something we've really seen before nor is it the overwhelming power house we were all having wet dreams about, this is an undeniably strong new card that absolutely warrants playtesting. The most common argument I see against it is that it is 'too specific to the current game state.' Luckily, we play in the format with some of the most powerful cards in magic's history. If this card is bad, you're likely winning.

[MechTactical]

Are you guys preordering or what? i remember buying kozilek for 10 (now around 3) and ulamog for 20!! (now around 10)... is the new emmy worth preordering at around 15? furthermore do you see the deck running more than 1?

Edit: do you wait for the full spoiler and then preorder all the cards you want from the set? Or do you just preorder 1 by 1? sorry for the off topic...

[MechTactical]

hehe i just lost with the latest world breaker list to a guy playing some sort of loam with emrakul + Nahiri, the Harbinger. Getting counter-emrakuled is always a laugh - totally unexpected. and i was wondering why the dude wasted my karakas instead of post :laugh:

[Postman]

Well, DRS has always kept a place in Mono Green lists. All the Mono Green lists oscillate between 0-2 so the card does deserve merit. Amusingly, I was running DRS in the list I was testing as it nearly guarantees that you have creature type in the graveyard.

Regarding Emrakul, the Promised End, I don't feel a need to defend the card. I will jam this card harder than strawberry in my deck exclusively for its effect, which I have outwardly stated I wanted since mid 2010. I will caution though, that like most components of this deck, a poor understanding of the meta and other decks will make this deck and therefore this card progressively weaker. Knowing how to Mindslaver someone is an art and not everyone is up to the task.



Worldbreaker is there as a meat-shield. In Hearthstone he would have Taunt. I would say 40-50% of the time I play him I exile a land. 30-40% an artifact (null rod, chalice, shardless agent, Revoker, Vial, Equipment, Pithing needle, top that flips) and 10-20% an enchantment (vortex, eidalon, blood moon, sneak attack, sylvan library).

The kicker is against non-blue, he is an enormous pain to deal with. stopping the aggression of nearly every creature in the format. You can also be more aggressive with your mana ramp since you know you will be unmolested. Krosan Grip however, is a huge brick vs most non-blue decks with aggro components. (Eldrazi Aggro and Burn being the biggest culprits here).

Against blue decks, it still does minor damage, sometimes its only role and the same duty as Krosan Grip. But unlike Krosan Grip, after doing its duty, it either gets countered (loss of advantage for them) and then has recursion, or it sticks around versus decks not meant to beat a wall.

In my version of Caw's list, I run 4 Krosan Grip sb, and 2 World Breaker main, which seems to speak directly to your point of contention regarding Krosan Grip's validity. Grip is there for sideboard cards, but World Breaker hits every deck somehow even pre-sideboard. A rare opportunity where a card could merit a maindeck or sideboard spot.
Thx for the detailed explanation, will give him a try this week 👍

[MGB]

Well, DRS has always kept a place in Mono Green lists. All the Mono Green lists oscillate between 0-2 so the card does deserve merit. Amusingly, I was running DRS in the list I was testing as it nearly guarantees that you have creature type in the graveyard.

Regarding Emrakul, the Promised End, I don't feel a need to defend the card. I will jam this card harder than strawberry in my deck exclusively for its effect, which I have outwardly stated I wanted since mid 2010. I will caution though, that like most components of this deck, a poor understanding of the meta and other decks will make this deck and therefore this card progressively weaker. Knowing how to Mindslaver someone is an art and not everyone is up to the task.


So basically the fact that this is a Mindslaver that is tutorable by Eye of Ugin is the major reason to run this despite the fact that your lists have never played Mindslaver in the past?

Also, I was hoping to see how your new list did @ EE4 but I guess you didn't make it out. Are you planning on testing your new list at SCG Worcester?

[Brendelton]

Question: What about using Living wish in the mono G build to tutor up another threat?

[mykatdied]

Green Sun's Zenith is likely just better to tutor up threats. Plus it shuffles back in to potentially do it again if necessary. Living wish telegraphing your next move is a downside, but could be ok.

[Mockingbird]

Green Sun's Zenith is likely just better to tutor up threats. Plus it shuffles back in to potentially do it again if necessary. Living wish telegraphing your next move is a downside, but could be ok.

Living Wish telegraphs less and less the further the game goes on. The issue I have with living wish is we spend a lot of side room boarding for combo matches. I'm not sure how much we can give to a Wishboard.

[MechTactical]

Went undefeated in local weekly event with a modified caw list:

// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ON] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [TSP] Vesuva
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [R] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [FD] Trinket Mage
2 [OGW] World Breaker

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [US] Show and Tell
3 [OGW] Warping Wall
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
1 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
2 [OD] Moment's Peace
2 [MM2] Repeal

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [JGC] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 [MMA] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [LG] Sylvan Library


Oh how I have missed Repeal so very much. I cast repeal 7 times in 6 of my 9 games and it was glorious every time.

Matchups were Burn, Dredge, Grixis, Sneaky Omni.

I enjoyed the build. Didn't miss Force. World Breaker was surprisingly hugely important. Sylvan Library continues to be extremely poorly timed. Every time I have drawn it I wished it was a Gitaxian Probe and not a card that makes me tap out for maybe something next turn, and yet it still remains a card that digs me into sideboard cards and fights null rod's oppression post side.


Also I did some brief testing with Emrakul, the Promised End, and the card is monsterously strong. I have never lost a game I cast it in, and the build I have been messing with has me casting it for 6-7.

SO what's the plan for magus?? i see only ulamog in there?
What's the plan in general? do we run dismember in the board? what's the best card against the m***** f*****?
my bombs often get REB-ed with painter in play, b4 i can activate for 3...

such a shame that WB can't handle creatures :rolleyes:

[Rock Lee]

SO what's the plan for magus?? i see only ulamog in there?
What's the plan in general? do we run dismember in the board? what's the best card against the m***** f*****?
my bombs often get REB-ed with painter in play, b4 i can activate for 3...

such a shame that WB can't handle creatures :rolleyes:

Recently I've been experimenting with magus answers. Steel Hellkite, Oblivion Stone, Pyrite Spellbomb have been the most successful. Also the build runs Repeal.

Mostly though, Worldbreaker has been the answer I needed if I can stall enough.

[TheBoozeCube]

FYI: Matt Tabak just announced that the rules will be changing with EMN. You will no longer be able to look at an opponent's sideboard when you control their turn with Emrakul.
https://m.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/4pplrm/rules_update_controlling_another_player_and/?utm_source=mweb_redirect&compact=true


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[mykatdied]

FYI: Matt Tabak just announced that the rules will be changing with EMN. You will no longer be able to look at an opponent's sideboard when you control their turn with Emrakul.
https://m.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/4pplrm/rules_update_controlling_another_player_and/?utm_source=mweb_redirect&compact=true


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have to assume this applies to mindslaver as well?

[TheBoozeCube]

I have to assume this applies to mindslaver as well?

Of course. Emrakul 2.0 is just the most relevant to this archetype.


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[mykatdied]

Of course. Emrakul 2.0 is just the most relevant to this archetype.


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Yeah I just read the ruling and essentially using an opponent's Wishes won't be an option... terrible. Can't disagree with this ruling more at this point given that updated info. Wishes should at least give you access, but what can we do? I am definitely excited for new Emrakul. I have a couple builds I am working on for value.

[TheBoozeCube]

Yeah I just read the ruling and essentially using an opponent's Wishes won't be an option... terrible. Can't disagree with this ruling more at this point given that updated info. Wishes should at least give you access, but what can we do? I am definitely excited for new Emrakul. I have a couple builds I am working on for value.

I agree completely. It makes sense in most cases, but it's absurd that you can't see it when casting a wish. And that is absolutely relevant in Legacy, where Burning, Living, and Cunning Wish all see play.


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[cwcomposer]

Board:
1 gaddock teeg
1 ethersworn canonist
1 chalice of the void
1 thorn of amethyst
1 sphere of resistance
1 trinisphere
2 rest in peace
1 sundering titan
1 cursed totem
1 elephant grass
1 choke
1 reclamation sage
2 krosan grip


How do you feel about the sideboard as listed?

[Ponders]

I am no stranger to the idea of casting a scapeshift for value. I have seen I done in modern many times when valakut can't get there. I.e. through a blood moon. But it's not ideal to cast shift unless you're winning on the spot. The idea of having mana up when you shift away 4 Forest and a tabernacle for 5 posts is lost on me. If I was to run shift I feel like I would want amulet of vigor. That is still probably a bit loose? I'm not opposed to testing it as resolving it probably means you win next turn. Against fair decks that is likely good enough. You could even exchange your theoretical forests for 3 cloudpost and 2 Glimmerpost and 10 life. That isn't a terrible trade I suppose in the fair match up to likely win the next turn or two. I am interested to hear about your testing. Just doesn't seem ideal.


This line of thinking still doesn't make sense to me. As it stands now, people running Primeval Titan will cast for 6 and bring 2 lands into play, tapped.

[mykatdied]

This line of thinking still doesn't make sense to me. As it stands now, people running Primeval Titan will cast for 6 and bring 2 lands into play, tapped.

That was long ago... which part confused you?

[slave]

================ SPOILER ALERT =======================

Whats everyones opinion of this new card?

Coax from the Blind Eternities
Sorcery, 2U
"You may choose an Eldrazi card you own from outside the game or in exile, reveal that card, and put it into your hand"

Considering it's effectively a blue wish, and it's able to immediately get back something that's been exiled by Swords to Plowshares etc., it might have some merit. For Legacy I'm not so sure, but this is definitely good for casual.
What I DO LIKE about this card, is that you can use it to fetch up not just creatures, but other choices like All is Dust & Not of this world from the side.

[Hencules]

================ SPOILER ALERT =======================

Whats everyones opinion of this new card?

Coax from the Blind Eternities
Sorcery, 2U
"You may choose an Eldrazi card you own from outside the game or in exile, reveal that card, and put it into your hand"

Considering it's effectively a blue wish, and it's able to immediately get back something that's been exiled by Swords to Plowshares etc., it might have some merit. For Legacy I'm not so sure, but this is definitely good for casual.
What I DO LIKE about this card, is that you can use it to fetch up not just creatures, but other choices like All is Dust & Not of this world from the side.

I think it had been discussed before and it seems hard to see play for two reasons. First of all living wish does very similar work for less mana which also gets utility lands or posts, secondly the deck would not like to trim sideboard cards it actually needs to solve bad matchups. That said test it all the same off course :)

[Hencules]

I've read quite a bit of the forum and I'm not sure if anyone tried it before. But it seems like an nice synergy to have some main winter orbs and candelabras.

Drop an orb, enjoy the stall and make land drops and then use a candelabra to untap and dominate?

Disclaimer: this is completely untested stuff. I could test a bit with proxies but I have no intention of buying candelabras..

[Rock Lee]

I've read quite a bit of the forum and I'm not sure if anyone tried it before. But it seems like an nice synergy to have some main winter orbs and candelabras.

Drop an orb, enjoy the stall and make land drops and then use a candelabra to untap and dominate?

Disclaimer: this is completely untested stuff. I could test a bit with proxies but I have no intention of buying candelabras..

I will admit, the few times I have had winter's orbs dropped against me, my opponents suffered tremendously while candelabra did heavy lifting. would require pithing needles for drs of course, and a way to not die to pyromancer/mentors.

[mykatdied]

I will admit, the few times I have had winter's orbs dropped against me, my opponents suffered tremendously while candelabra did heavy lifting. would require pithing needles for drs of course, and a way to not die to pyromancer/mentors.

As for pyro and mentor we have tabernacle for that! ;)

[Hencules]

I will admit, the few times I have had winter's orbs dropped against me, my opponents suffered tremendously while candelabra did heavy lifting. would require pithing needles for drs of course, and a way to not die to pyromancer/mentors.

Go heavy on mono green, play 4 Vesuva to guarantee the posts and defend yourself with elephant grass? They're already fine without orb, but together your fine to make the drops you need.

[Ponders]

That was long ago... which part confused you?

The idea that it should be "winning on the spot". In some sense this card seems better than titan if the idea is to survive just one more turn.

[mykatdied]

The idea that it should be "winning on the spot". In some sense this card seems better than titan if the idea is to survive just one more turn.

The point of scapeshift is to win on the spot with valakut usually. With primeval titan you have an actual win condition in play, you're not just switching out a few mana sources as you would be with scapeshift.

[Ponders]

The point of scapeshift is to win on the spot with valakut usually. With primeval titan you have an actual win condition in play, you're not just switching out a few mana sources as you would be with scapeshift.


The point of scapeshift is to win on the spot with valukut in that deck. It may be possible and even likely that card and perhaps others have more than one potential utility. I still like the card actually in a monogreen list anyway. Granted, maybe something that better deals with moon/chalice would be better.

For those people running trinket mage, room for tree of tales? No need?

[mykatdied]

The point of scapeshift is to win on the spot with valukut IN THAT DECK. It may be possible and even likely that card and perhaps others have more than one potential utility.

As I recall I was one of the only people that didn't flat out dismiss scapeshift for 12 post. I suggested a possible use for it, but I still don't really think it is necessary. Why after 6 months(?) is this coming back up? I'm very lost. If you want to run scapeshift because you love that card, no one is going to stop you.

Cheers.

[cwcomposer]

Hey, everyone!

I wanted to see if anyone had thoughts / suggestions / critiques of my current list (particularly of its sideboard) before I head into my first big legacy event (SCG Worcester). I still have time to pick up a few cards if I need them.

I'm playing a mono-green (splash white) version with Green Sun's Zenith. I know different people have different preferences for the general Post build, but advice that changes the makeup of the deck isn't helpful for me at this time. What I'm looking for is advice on how to tweak THIS version of Post. Once again, sideboard advice would be greatly appreciated; mine is kind of a mess right now.

Once specific question about fetchlands: I've seen some cases where people use as many different fetchlands as possible as a way to avoid weird cases of Pithing Needle blind naming (for example) Windswept Heath. Is this something I should really care about?

4 Primeval Titan
1 Oracle of Mul Daya

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pithing Needle
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
4 Warping Wail
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Candelabra of Tawnos


4 Cloudpost

4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva

1 Thespian's Stage

4 Forest
2 Savannah
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

SIDEBOARD:

2 Krosan Grip
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Rest In Peace
1 Trinisphere
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Rule of Law
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Moment's Peace
1 Elephant Grass
1 Dismember

Thanks in advance!

[mykatdied]

Hey, everyone!

I wanted to see if anyone had thoughts / suggestions / critiques of my current list (particularly of its sideboard) before I head into my first big legacy event (SCG Worcester). I still have time to pick up a few cards if I need them.

I'm playing a mono-green (splash white) version with Green Sun's Zenith. I know different people have different preferences for the general Post build, but advice that changes the makeup of the deck isn't helpful for me at this time. What I'm looking for is advice on how to tweak THIS version of Post. Once again, sideboard advice would be greatly appreciated; mine is kind of a mess right now.

Once specific question about fetchlands: I've seen some cases where people use as many different fetchlands as possible as a way to avoid weird cases of Pithing Needle blind naming (for example) Windswept Heath. Is this something I should really care about?

4 Primeval Titan
1 Oracle of Mul Daya

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pithing Needle
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
4 Warping Wail
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Candelabra of Tawnos


4 Cloudpost

4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva

1 Thespian's Stage

4 Forest
2 Savannah
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

SIDEBOARD:

2 Krosan Grip
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Rest In Peace
1 Trinisphere
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Rule of Law
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Moment's Peace
1 Elephant Grass
1 Dismember

Thanks in advance!

I don't ever split fetchlands. Usually needle is going to name candel, map, Ugin. If they really try to shut down a fetchland, good for them. You can crop it away anyway so it isn't really a loss.

Personally I like having 3 or 4 sphere of resistance in the board since combo can be a nightmare for post. Not sure if warping wail has been enough, but it doesn't seem likely. Otherwise as far as your list goes, it seems fine. I don't personally like GSZ, but it works for some so I can't really argue against it.

[cwcomposer]

I don't ever split fetchlands. Usually needle is going to name candel, map, Ugin. If they really try to shut down a fetchland, good for them. You can crop it away anyway so it isn't really a loss.

Personally I like having 3 or 4 sphere of resistance in the board since combo can be a nightmare for post. Not sure if warping wail has been enough, but it doesn't seem likely. Otherwise as far as your list goes, it seems fine. I don't personally like GSZ, but it works for some so I can't really argue against it.

Excellent advice, thank you very much! What would you cut from my current sideboard to fit Sphere of Resistance?

[mykatdied]

Excellent advice, thank you very much! What would you cut from my current sideboard to fit Sphere of Resistance?

I mean, you have some combo hate in there already. I might remove the Teeg, Elephant Grass and Rule of Law for 3. Mostly Teeg and Rule because they require W which can be difficult to get at times. Sphere also drops as early as teeg and a turn earlier than Rule. The singleton Grass may not be correct, but I am just not sure you need it. My experience with G post is if you have a full day of fair magic, you likely win so maybe the Grass isn't necessary?

[Nouille]

Hi,
Here are some little advices, maybe not so acurate as I play this deck only from time to time :
-I cut the x3 expedition maps as I always find them soooo slow, and replaced them by x3 ancient stirrings. It can still find lands with much consistancy, + can tutor wincon creatures or key artefacts. I definitely love stirrings, and you should give a try.
- For the lands, I run the full playset of vesuva and only 2 fetches. Your life is key in a lot of matchups (i won so many games at 1-2 pv...), and the shuffle for sensei is not so worth with crop rotation/stirrings/titan.
- I currently have my 2 flex spot filled with 2 ratchet bombs, and i really love them so far. They can buy you some precious turns.
- It's a personnal preference, but I run x3 exploration (often desided games 2/3 vs non-combo decks)
- The sideboard seems ok to me ! You should maybe consider adding a Platinum empirion and/or a wurmcoil engine and maybe more combo hate (3sphere/sphere of resistance), but this is maybe a bad advice since I've never tried the white splash. It's a personnal preference, but i do like x2 choke in sb (one could argue that we are already ok vs blue heavy/control decks but anyway...).

[Leshrac82]

I would not remove the Teeg. It's debatable if it's better combo hate than a Sphere, but it turns the GSZ into additional combo hate cards as a way to get Teeg.

Elephant Grass i don't like right now. On the one hand you want that card against Eldrazi, on the other hand when they play Chalice it is useless. I prefer Ensnaring Bridge in that spot, that's also often great against Show&Tell or Reanimator decks. In my deck i prefer removal in the form of Engineered Explosives to cards like Moment's Peace, but it's not as flexible for you as it is for me, so maybe Moment's Peace is better here.

Playing white combo hate could also have a mana problem. Teeg you can get with GSZ, but Rule of Law, Ethersworn Canonist and Rest in Peace all need one of just 6 white mana sources. I'm at least sceptical if that works reliably enough. If you have a white hate card in your starting 7, there is a ~50% chance you don't have the white mana to go with it.

My combo approach is still different than just some Sphere's: I like Leyline of Sanctity for the board. It's great against some combo decks (especially Storm) and it's also nice against Burn and discard-heavy decks like Shardless BUG. What i like most about it against combo: You don't have to tap out for it. When i was playing other permanents as combo hate it often went: I tap out to play a hate card, endstep Abrupt Decay, his turn he goes off and all my interaction in hand is useless. Or i don't tap out and my hate cards rot in my hand. You have 4 Crop Rotation and 4 Warping Wail to interact with your combo opponent, very often you don't really want to tap out.

Also something to consider: Combo decks have to be prepared for Eldrazi. They will have a lot of answers to Sphere's in the board. They probably won't have that many answers to Leyline (Storm usually plays 4 Abrupt Decay but just 2 Echoing Truth or other bounce spells against Leyline).

[Ponders]

Elder Deep-Fiend looks interesting, if not pricey at 8.

[Loxmatii]

Does anyone here is going to Strasbourg Bazar this weekend?

i will play monoG post. Cant solve only one problem:
2 stones in main or 2 all is dust. Dont know the number of eldrazi decks at Legacy

[mykatdied]

Does anyone here is going to Strasbourg Bazar this weekend?

i will play monoG post. Cant solve only one problem:
2 stones in main or 2 all is dust. Dont know the number of eldrazi decks at Legacy

Given gp Prague I would likely go with ostone since it seemed like eldrazi was relatively popular. I don't know for sure though I play in the US.

[Pdingo]

If you want to bash eldrazi maybe ostone is very good but keep in mind that t1 needle is very important against wasteland and ostone takes it with it also..

[cwcomposer]

I might remove the Teeg, Elephant Grass and Rule of Law for 3. [...] The singleton Grass may not be correct, but I am just not sure you need it.

I'm going to keep Gaddock Teeg because, as Leshrac82 mentioned, it works great with Green Sun's Zenith. So does Ethersworn Canonist.

It seems that Rule of Law and Elephant Grass keep coming up as less potent sideboard cards, so I'll cut them to free up some spots.


I run the full playset of vesuva and only 2 fetches. [...] You should maybe consider adding a Platinum empirion and/or a wurmcoil engine and maybe more combo hate (3sphere/sphere of resistance), but this is maybe a bad advice since I've never tried the white splash.

I just worry about having Vesuva as a useless land early game (or worse... as the only land in my opening seven) if I go up to three copies. Do you run into problems not having an attractive target to copy?

I could see myself going down to three fetchlands because I have plenty of other shuffle effects to work with Top, but I also worry that the white splash needs the fetches.

Against whom do you bring in Platinum Emperion and / or Wurmcoil Engine?


I prefer Ensnaring Bridge in that spot, that's also often great against Show&Tell or Reanimator decks. [...] Playing white combo hate could also have a mana problem. [...] I like Leyline of Sanctity for the board. It's great against some combo decks (especially Storm) and it's also nice against Burn and discard-heavy decks like Shardless BUG.

Doesn't Ensnaring Bridge keep our creatures from attacking as well?

As for mana issues with for the white splash, I think 2 Savannah, 1 Karakas, and 4 Fetchlands should be good, right? That's seven ways to get white, not counting Maps, Crop Rotation, or Green Sun's Zenith-ing in a white creature.

Okay, Leyline of Sanctity. You have to run the full playset, right? And just mulligan until you have it in your opening hand? What do you cut for it? Other combo hate?

[chrisdiedforyou]

I'm going to keep Gaddock Teeg because, as Leshrac82 mentioned, it works great with Green Sun's Zenith. So does Ethersworn Canonist.

As for mana issues with for the white splash, I think 2 Savannah, 1 Karakas, and 4 Fetchlands should be good, right? That's seven ways to get white, not counting Maps, Crop Rotation, or Green Sun's Zenith-ing in a white creature.

Green Sun's Zenith can only fetch a green creature.

[cwcomposer]

Green Sun's Zenith can only fetch a green creature.

Gaddock Teeg is green/white. ;)

Edited to add: Ahh, yes, but Ethersworn Canonist isn't. Good point.

[Mockingbird]

I will admit, the few times I have had winter's orbs dropped against me, my opponents suffered tremendously while candelabra did heavy lifting. would require pithing needles for drs of course, and a way to not die to pyromancer/mentors.
I would like to point out that even without Candelabra, the Cloudpost can just overwhelm the opponent because the land we keep untapping taps for 3-7 mana. Actually... it might make a great side card in Legends-Post because in addition to the Locus base, it uses a lot of hefty mana rocks.

[maCHOOga]

Hey, everyone!

I wanted to see if anyone had thoughts / suggestions / critiques of my current list (particularly of its sideboard) before I head into my first big legacy event (SCG Worcester). I still have time to pick up a few cards if I need them.

I'm playing a mono-green (splash white) version with Green Sun's Zenith. I know different people have different preferences for the general Post build, but advice that changes the makeup of the deck isn't helpful for me at this time. What I'm looking for is advice on how to tweak THIS version of Post. Once again, sideboard advice would be greatly appreciated; mine is kind of a mess right now.

Once specific question about fetchlands: I've seen some cases where people use as many different fetchlands as possible as a way to avoid weird cases of Pithing Needle blind naming (for example) Windswept Heath. Is this something I should really care about?

...DECK...

SIDEBOARD:

2 Krosan Grip
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Rest In Peace
1 Trinisphere
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Rule of Law
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Moment's Peace
1 Elephant Grass
1 Dismember

Thanks in advance!

Regarding the fetchlands, I had this conversation with some of my friends before GP Columbus. I was contemplating one of each Green fetch as well. There is a very corner case where someone may try to surgical your fetchland. But, that is such a rare occurrence that it's barely relevant.

My current maindeck build is very close to yours. I think the most critical card is cavern of souls maindeck. Since GW lacks brainstorm, you should try to squeeze more than one copy in. I'm at 30 lands, with the 30th land being dark depths. Still not sold on depths, but I'll flush that out shortly.

Regarding the SB, what is the lone dismember for? What's worth paying 4 life to kill?
Also, Leyline of Sanctity is so helpful against a lot of bad matchups. It's won me multiple games thus far. Burn and ANT have to deal with it to kill you (usually).
I like more sphere effects over Rule of Law / Cannonist. They can be brought in against more than just combo decks.
Teeg and RecSage are allstars, don't cut them at all costs!

[Mockingbird]

Regarding the fetchlands, I had this conversation with some of my friends before GP Columbus. I was contemplating one of each Green fetch as well. There is a very corner case where someone may try to surgical your fetchland. But, that is such a rare occurrence that it's barely relevant.

My current maindeck build is very close to yours. I think the most critical card is cavern of souls maindeck. Since GW lacks brainstorm, you should try to squeeze more than one copy in. I'm at 30 lands, with the 30th land being dark depths. Still not sold on depths, but I'll flush that out shortly.

Regarding the SB, what is the lone dismember for? What's worth paying 4 life to kill?
Also, Leyline of Sanctity is so helpful against a lot of bad matchups. It's won me multiple games thus far. Burn and ANT have to deal with it to kill you (usually).
I like more sphere effects over Rule of Law / Cannonist. They can be brought in against more than just combo decks.
Teeg and RecSage are allstars, don't cut them at all costs!

If an opponent thinks they can throw you off by Needling fetchlands, they will. Often, they will look for players that don't know that Pithing Needle is NOT a triggered ability. And yes, it can hurt because sometimes a slip will leave you hurting for mana. But diverse or not diverse fetches generally don't matter because most people will go for the fetch they see if they get the chance, and not for the fetch that may or may not come up later. If it's about later, then they're better off calling artifacts.

[Leshrac82]

Doesn't Ensnaring Bridge keep our creatures from attacking as well?

As for mana issues with for the white splash, I think 2 Savannah, 1 Karakas, and 4 Fetchlands should be good, right? That's seven ways to get white, not counting Maps, Crop Rotation, or Green Sun's Zenith-ing in a white creature.

Okay, Leyline of Sanctity. You have to run the full playset, right? And just mulligan until you have it in your opening hand? What do you cut for it? Other combo hate?

Bridge usually stops our creatures as well, that's right. But we have Ulamog that can eventually exile the Bridge when we don't need it any more, and we have other ways to get rid of it in the board. I have run 2x Bridge in my Sideboard for a while now. It can win games on its own, and even though there were one or two situations where it took a while to finish the game because i didn't have a way to remove it ready, i always won these games.

I didn't count the Karakas for white mana, my mistake. It might work, but you should probably test it a few times.

I run 3 Leylines. And i never mulligan until i have it, there are other keepable hands in every matchup where it's good - i can't think of any matchup where it's Leyline or bust. I would probably cut other combo hate cards, i don't play that many - but my deck is very different and can win against combo much faster.

[Postman]

Does anyone here is going to Strasbourg Bazar this weekend?

i will play monoG post. Cant solve only one problem:
2 stones in main or 2 all is dust. Dont know the number of eldrazi decks at Legacy
Yes, I'm going to BOM, playing UG ;-) Almost never played the mono G version, but would tend to go with O-Stone, expecting many Eldrazi decks

[maCHOOga]

If an opponent thinks they can throw you off by Needling fetchlands, they will. Often, they will look for players that don't know that Pithing Needle is NOT a triggered ability. And yes, it can hurt because sometimes a slip will leave you hurting for mana. But diverse or not diverse fetches generally don't matter because most people will go for the fetch they see if they get the chance, and not for the fetch that may or may not come up later. If it's about later, then they're better off calling artifacts.

I've done it game 1 against storm playing UG 12post. I knew they were on storm ahead of time, so I named polluted delta.

[Rock Lee]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/grapple-with-the-past/

This card is quite interesting. FINALLY an eot recovery card.

I think the card can make mono-green good again.

[mykatdied]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/grapple-with-the-past/

This card is quite interesting. FINALLY an eot recovery card.

I think the card can make mono-green good again.

Mono green isn't bad... first thing. Other than that I have no problem with this statement.

I agree. This card seems good, even milling an original eldrazi legend with it you can still get it or a land before the shuffle trigger happens. Good to see a mill effect that can actually be put to use.

[cwcomposer]

I think the most critical card is cavern of souls maindeck. [...] Regarding the SB, what is the lone dismember for? [...] I like more sphere effects over Rule of Law / Cannonist.

Maybe I'll try to add a second Cavern of Souls.

As for Dismember, it is just filling a slot with the idea that it's good against Eldrazi (kill their Thought-Knot Seer and draw a card) or Reanimator (minimize the damage and lifegain from a Griselbrand attack). But I could cut it without feeling too bad.

I'll cut the two Rule of Law and one Ethersworn Cannonist in favor of...:


I run 3 Leylines.

Maybe I'll try three of these instead. And if I can free up any other sideboard slots, I can still add a Sphere of Resistance or two.

Thus, my sideboard could look like this:

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Rest In Peace
1 Trinisphere
1 Sphere of Resistance
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Moment's Peace
3 Leyline of Sanctity

What do we think? Is this better?

[snorlaxcom]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/grapple-with-the-past/

This card is quite interesting. FINALLY an eot recovery card.

I think the card can make mono-green good again.

Nice, it also bins the next 3 cards for a fresh look with Top at instant speed.

[Mockingbird]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/grapple-with-the-past/

This card is quite interesting. FINALLY an eot recovery card.

I think the card can make mono-green good again.

Points worth making:

This is clearly meant to synergize with Emrakul, the Promised End (I wonder why?/sarcasm)

This provides a reset for a bad Sensei's Divining Top.

At worst if they're nothing in the grave, this is a green version of Glimpse the Future (cheaper but more restrictive).

We have a response to Surgical Extraction!

Eldrazi with Grave triggers (which will always at least include Emrakul 1.0) : I'm not sure how I feel about hitting those. Cloudpost has always had varying degrees of reliance on graveyards, which consequently mean varying liking or disliking those triggers (unless it's vs. Grindstone). At least we get to get a card before a tripped trigger puts our graveyard back.

Related, the word target does not appear in the card text. This is important. Like when an opponent does get a chance to crack a fetch after passing priority to the let Needle resolve, after Grapple with the Past is allowed to resolve, your opponent can no longer spring a Surgical Extraction on you because mill and recovery all happen at once. This also means if they spring a Tormod's Crypt effect on you, you can pull a card from the mill 3 effect if one fits the conditions.

[Pdingo]

@rocklee
Mono G is better then UG..your opinion is not always the right..

[Drixx]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/eternal-scourge/ new interesting never ending blocker for us what do you think? also will be huge for eldrazis aggro ... ble

[Lemnear]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/eternal-scourge/ new interesting never ending blocker for us what do you think? also will be huge for eldrazis aggro ... ble

Except it can't stand other creatures

[Rock Lee]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/eternal-scourge/ new interesting never ending blocker for us what do you think? also will be huge for eldrazis aggro ... ble

The card is interesting. Mostly because it doesn't require Mishollow Griffen to play Food Chain anymore.

But the card I am more excited with today's spoilers is Distended Mindbender (http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/distended-mindbender/)

[Zotmaster]

The card is interesting. Mostly because it doesn't require Mishollow Griffen to play Food Chain anymore.

But the card I am more excited with today's spoilers is Distended Mindbender (http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/distended-mindbender/)

I wish it was a little larger, but it definitely has potential. I'm starting to come around on the new Emrakul, as well. I'm wondering if trying a balls-to-the-wall ramp strategy could work with some of the new guys.

[Leshrac82]

Grapple seems interesting for every mostly green build. I might try it in my build with Knight & Gitrog, just not sure what i could cut - the list has been pretty stable for a while (just one change to the last list i posted) and seems perfectly fine.

That said, a strategy with a toolbox of big Eldrazi becomes more and more interesting, although it's unclear which of the new tools will make the cut. I will definitely try something like that once the cards work on xmage. Even though i'm still convinced my current build is better overall. :wink:

[Ponders]

I wish it was a little larger, but it definitely has potential. I'm starting to come around on the new Emrakul, as well. I'm wondering if trying a balls-to-the-wall ramp strategy could work with some of the new guys.


How has Oblivion Sower been treating you?

[Ponders]

Nice, it also bins the next 3 cards for a fresh look with Top at instant speed.

I like the fact that its not a 1 cmc. Gets around Chalice and may work just about as well as ancient stirrings. New Thalia looks good for D&T.

[Zotmaster]

How has Oblivion Sower been treating you?

I actually haven't touched my colorless list since Columbus. I have been brewing a bit, including one of the dumbest brews I've ever come up with...at some point I'll actually nut up and test it because I'm pretty sure it's just insanely stupid. Then again, maybe I'll wait until the new stuff comes out. I've actually mostly been trolling with a different deck: one that runs Didgeridoo. No, I'm not kidding.

Sower was terrific during its run though. It did everything I wanted it to do and more. It doesn't die in combat, it pairs well with Relic, and getting to Wasteland your opponent back is extra fun if you have a snarky comment to go with it.

[Ponders]

I actually haven't touched my colorless list since Columbus. I have been brewing a bit, including one of the dumbest brews I've ever come up with...at some point I'll actually nut up and test it because I'm pretty sure it's just insanely stupid. Then again, maybe I'll wait until the new stuff comes out. I've actually mostly been trolling with a different deck: one that runs Didgeridoo. No, I'm not kidding.

Sower was terrific during its run though. It did everything I wanted it to do and more. It doesn't die in combat, it pairs well with Relic, and getting to Wasteland your opponent back is extra fun if you have a snarky comment to go with it.

I really liked the idea you had but of course always we have to wonder if getting it into play is fast enough. Working with some of these new cards like thoughtknot has done pretty well for zerg rush eldrazzi.

[TheBoozeCube]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/grapple-with-the-past/

This card is quite interesting. FINALLY an eot recovery card.

I think the card can make mono-green good again.

It's interesting, for sure. But for 1G, what does this really do that Sylvan Scrying doesn't do better? I don't know of any build that runs a sufficiently high creature density to reliably find one in the top 3, and Sylvan Scrying gives you 100% precision tutoring for land at the same cost.


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[chrisdiedforyou]

It's interesting, for sure. But for 1G, what does this really do that Sylvan Scrying doesn't do better? I don't know of any build that runs a sufficiently high creature density to reliably find one in the top 3, and Sylvan Scrying gives you 100% precision tutoring for land at the same cost.


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I'd argue the Instant speed vs Sorcery speed makes the card better. I'm not sold on this being an upgrade to any of the current list out there but do think it would help in a wasteland heavy meta. Think it's worth testing.

[Kozilek]

I actually haven't touched my colorless list since Columbus. I have been brewing a bit, including one of the dumbest brews I've ever come up with...at some point I'll actually nut up and test it because I'm pretty sure it's just insanely stupid. Then again, maybe I'll wait until the new stuff comes out. I've actually mostly been trolling with a different deck: one that runs Didgeridoo. No, I'm not kidding.

Sower was terrific during its run though. It did everything I wanted it to do and more. It doesn't die in combat, it pairs well with Relic, and getting to Wasteland your opponent back is extra fun if you have a snarky comment to go with it.

You're playing a deck with didgeridoo? I... I think I need to see this list. It sounds like the kind of thing that if it's capable of winning anything I would happily play just to see people's faces when they lose to didgeridoo.

[cwcomposer]

[...]but do think it would help in a wasteland heavy meta.

Isn't Crucible of Worlds better against heavy Wasteland? Or Life from the Loam?

Edited to add: I guess Life from the Loam trades dredge for Grapple With the Past's instant speed and creature recovery bonus. And Crucible can just get Abrupt Decayed.

[Rock Lee]

It's interesting, for sure. But for 1G, what does this really do that Sylvan Scrying doesn't do better? I don't know of any build that runs a sufficiently high creature density to reliably find one in the top 3, and Sylvan Scrying gives you 100% precision tutoring for land at the same cost.


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Was testing a mono green build with all is dust and courser of kruphix. Between grapple gleening 3 for top, binning these high type cards, and acting as recovery/filter, I have been casting emrakul2 for 4 mana with only a fetch, map, and grapple, no locus necessary. Pretty insane

[Rock Lee]

In other news, I have been considering Dawnstrider in the sb of U/g, possibly in conjunction with Ensnaring bridge main. Currently I am running Moment's peace, and while the combat trick is nice, you often pass with mana up, and don't use all/most of that mana eot, which frontloads all your hate onto the pivotal turn, where you can't always cast all your spells. Specifically, a Moment's Peace, Moment's Peace Flashback, Crop rotation, possibly warping wail is an enormous GGGC4 mana, with which you probably could win the game outright.

Ensnaring bridge and moment's peace seem to fight each other somewhat. Ensnaring bridge + Dawnstrider seems much stronger, pitching your bricks, and possibly shuffling key cards back or neutralizing Deathrites.

Looking for thoughts. I'll be testing extensively this week in anticipation of Worcester.

[cwcomposer]

I'll be testing extensively this week in anticipation of Worcester.

We should try to meet up! Anyone else coming next weekend?

[MechTactical]

In other news, I have been considering Dawnstrider in the sb of U/g, possibly in conjunction with Ensnaring bridge main. Currently I am running Moment's peace, and while the combat trick is nice, you often pass with mana up, and don't use all/most of that mana eot, which frontloads all your hate onto the pivotal turn, where you can't always cast all your spells. Specifically, a Moment's Peace, Moment's Peace Flashback, Crop rotation, possibly warping wail is an enormous GGGC4 mana, with which you probably could win the game outright.

Ensnaring bridge and moment's peace seem to fight each other somewhat. Ensnaring bridge + Dawnstrider seems much stronger, pitching your bricks, and possibly shuffling key cards back or neutralizing Deathrites.

Looking for thoughts. I'll be testing extensively this week in anticipation of Worcester.

Can u give us a sneak preview on this new emrakul2.0 build? Are u planning on running more than one emrakul2?? Need to know how many 2 buy:smile:

[mykatdied]

In other news, I have been considering Dawnstrider in the sb of U/g, possibly in conjunction with Ensnaring bridge main. Currently I am running Moment's peace, and while the combat trick is nice, you often pass with mana up, and don't use all/most of that mana eot, which frontloads all your hate onto the pivotal turn, where you can't always cast all your spells. Specifically, a Moment's Peace, Moment's Peace Flashback, Crop rotation, possibly warping wail is an enormous GGGC4 mana, with which you probably could win the game outright.

Ensnaring bridge and moment's peace seem to fight each other somewhat. Ensnaring bridge + Dawnstrider seems much stronger, pitching your bricks, and possibly shuffling key cards back or neutralizing Deathrites.

Looking for thoughts. I'll be testing extensively this week in anticipation of Worcester.

Depends on what match ups you want these cards for. If you want Dawnstrider and bridge for eldrazi then Dawnstrider gives them a warping wail target, so it's likely garbage there. Bridge is obviously good enough since you can likely halt the assume long enough to actually get online with something relevant. Moments peace usually being a card that casts above a chalice likely for 1 is good. If they don't have chalice at 1 and you have enough instants to cast then holding up mana isn't particularly terrible. It can mostly shut down nuts draws where your opponent just goes mimic into thoughtknot, into smasher. You can cast peace in response to thought-knot to stop the mimic coming for 4 and then flashback causing them to waste a huge attack with smasher and mimic. At the very least it may cause them to try and play more conservative and give you a few turns to outplay them, which you can likely do given your experience and skill level in comparison to most people who would still be running eldrazi aggro.

I'm very interested to hear about some of your testing with new emrakul. Especially costing 4 mana.

[TheBoozeCube]

http://magicjudge.tumblr.com/post/146895951258/magic-judge-program-preview-card-nephalia-academy

Now THIS is a card we can use: a land that allows us to discard to the top of our library. It's a great foil to Hymn, Liliana, Therapy, etc. The best part is that you choose for each individual card, so if a T2 Hymn hits a Post and something you don't need, you can bin one and put the Post on top.


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[Rock Lee]

Can u give us a sneak preview on this new emrakul2.0 build? Are u planning on running more than one emrakul2?? Need to know how many 2 buy:smile:

Tragically any suggestion I gave atm would be the pre-alpha version of the future deck. Right now all of my efforts are focused on SCG Worcester, and then the Wyrmwood open (Both big Mass events), which are both pre-Emratwo.

After SCG though, I will start giving serious playtest time in.

[Rock Lee]

http://magicjudge.tumblr.com/post/146895951258/magic-judge-program-preview-card-nephalia-academy

Now THIS is a card we can use: a land that allows us to discard to the top of our library. It's a great foil to Hymn, Liliana, Therapy, etc. The best part is that you choose for each individual card, so if a T2 Hymn hits a Post and something you don't need, you can bin one and put the Post on top.


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It is an interesting card for sure. I am not sure if I will be running it. Seems more akin to the non-blue variants, where hand disruption can be brutal. This definitely improves the storm/reanimator matchup even further, since you no longer have to worry about only floating 1 silver bullet ontop of library, and you can still retrieve it with top.

[TheBoozeCube]

It is an interesting card for sure. I am not sure if I will be running it. Seems more akin to the non-blue variants, where hand disruption can be brutal. This definitely improves the storm/reanimator matchup even further, since you no longer have to worry about only floating 1 silver bullet ontop of library, and you can still retrieve it with top.

Hadn't thought about that. I was mostly thinking it might be useful to Crop for in response to an early Hymn, particularly with hands of 3-5 cards that need to protect their lands in hand to maintain sequencing.


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[cwcomposer]

Nephalia Academy seems like it could be a great one-of utility land in the sideboard against discard decks. I think I'll definitely test it out in my mono-green list.

[Corazu]

Hadn't thought about that. I was mostly thinking it might be useful to Crop for in response to an early Hymn, particularly with hands of 3-5 cards that need to protect their lands in hand to maintain sequencing.


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Even in the UG build I could see this being useful. My friend on Shardless BUG has luck to insane levels when he hymns me. Saving a post from the yard would be pretty useful. It also means I could leave Emrakul in my hand in some situations while brainstorming 2 on top and not having to worry about the shuffle losing all my cards.

[Ricardio]

Nephalia Academy seems like it could be a great one-of utility land in the sideboard against discard decks. I think I'll definitely test it out in my mono-green list.

I have been playing mono green 11post on mtgo and its been quite entertaining. What is your current list?

[Leshrac82]

I will probably at least test Nephalia Academy, utility lands are always interesting for my Knight&Gitrog build. I'm not completely sold, right now i'm playing Volrath's Stronghold and Sea Gate Wreckage, and if i weren't that greedy i would probably only play one of them. If i play Academy, it has probably to replace one of these lands, and it's unclear if it's better. Or i could try to put lands in the sideboard again, but all the sideboard slots are valuable.

Btw, i'm trying Dawnstrider in my Sideboard too. Did this already once before, didn't do what i wanted then, but i wasn't playing Bridge at the time. Don't know if it's good yet, but in theory it seems decent against Eldrazi, Infect, Elves and Merfolk - basically any aggressive deck without a lot of removal. When i tried it first i needed help against Delver, and although it might be playable there, it dies to removal too much to make a huge impact. But lately my results against Delver have been good anyway.

I still think my build is really good, just dismissing it as "fun, but not competitive" is almost certainly wrong, my winrate remains slightly under 70%. It's just very different from other 12post decks, and like any toolbox deck it needs practice to find the best lines in every situation.

[TTX]

I will probably at least test Nephalia Academy, utility lands are always interesting for my Knight&Gitrog build. I'm not completely sold, right now i'm playing Volrath's Stronghold and Sea Gate Wreckage, and if i weren't that greedy i would probably only play one of them. If i play Academy, it has probably to replace one of these lands, and it's unclear if it's better. Or i could try to put lands in the sideboard again, but all the sideboard slots are valuable.

Btw, i'm trying Dawnstrider in my Sideboard too. Did this already once before, didn't do what i wanted then, but i wasn't playing Bridge at the time. Don't know if it's good yet, but in theory it seems decent against Eldrazi, Infect, Elves and Merfolk - basically any aggressive deck without a lot of removal. When i tried it first i needed help against Delver, and although it might be playable there, it dies to removal too much to make a huge impact. But lately my results against Delver have been good anyway.

I still think my build is really good, just dismissing it as "fun, but not competitive" is almost certainly wrong, my winrate remains slightly under 70%. It's just very different from other 12post decks, and like any toolbox deck it needs practice to find the best lines in every situation.


Someone else bite already!

This deck, previously posted by Leshrac is fantastic if you're tired of the 1-dimensional Eldrazi Post. It's a hybrid of Maverick, Nic Fit, Lands, 12 Post, and crushes most importantly, most of the metagame. I can testify in addition too Leshrac, the deck is very good, very hard to play, but seemingly always has an answer. It's a real blast to play, reminds you why you
play magic!

Perhaps swap Gaddock Teeg out for Neph Academy in the board? Gaddock is sometimes too slow against the matchups where it matters, and while Neph doesn't protect against TKS, it does make Liliana a little less effective and it would help a lot against Hymn. I think Neph Academy might go better with 4 SDT.




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[Leshrac82]

Thx for the support finally in the thread, we already had great discussions via PM! :smile:


Perhaps swap Gaddock Teeg out for Neph Academy in the board? Gaddock is sometimes too slow against the matchups where it matters, and while Neph doesn't protect against TKS, it does make Liliana a little less effective and it would help a lot against Hymn. I think Neph Academy might go better with 4 SDT.

Gaddock Teeg is indeed sometimes too slow. In addition, out of all my sideboard cards Teeg comes in the least, basically only against Storm and Belcher (also Miracles, but it's not that relevant there, and High Tide, but that's unwinnable either way). Against Belcher it usually shuts them out once it's down, but i can't keep a hand based on Teeg, they go off on Turn 1 too often, i need to have a way to beat that (and i often do, my results against Belcher are very good). Storm rareley goes off before Teeg comes down, but they will board in Abrupt Decays to beat hate cards, and they can usually kill it when they go off. And i don't even play any other real hate cards AD can hit, there are no Spheres in my sideboard. It goes a bit against my own advice a few pages back to cut it, but maybe even with GSZ to find it, it's just not good enough. And Academy would help a bit against Storm too. (And it's not that i really need help against Storm - i'm playing less combo hate in my board than other 12post decks, but so far i'm 21-10 in matches against Storm. The ability to kill them very fast with Marit Lage helps a lot, they often just don't get the time to deal with all my answers before they are forced to go off.)

[Mr. Froggy]

Haven't been on here (or playing MTG in ages for the matter), so I decided it was time I played a bit on MTGO. Dusted off my trusty G/r Post deck and wrecked SHIT. Forgot how much fun that was.

[Ricardio]

Haven't been on here (or playing MTG in ages for the matter), so I decided it was time I played a bit on MTGO. Dusted off my trusty G/r Post deck and wrecked SHIT. Forgot how much fun that was.

A list would tantalize my eyes, sir.

[Rock Lee]

I still think my build is really good, just dismissing it as "fun, but not competitive" is almost certainly wrong, my winrate remains slightly under 70%. It's just very different from other 12post decks, and like any toolbox deck it needs practice to find the best lines in every situation.

I'm not knocking your build or ideas. I love the gitrog version, and it is extremely fun. But keep in mind, a 70% win rate will only prize/top 8 at an event with 5 rounds or less, where you can average X-1-1. At an event like a SCG open, that is 15 round, you need a win rate of 80% bare minimum to go X-2 and guarantee top 8. This extremely high standard of win rates is why I continue to tune the deck constantly. Small fractions of win rates matter enormously. Granted, at a 15 round event, a 70% win rate WILL get you top 124, which attendance-based could prize you at 10-4-1. At a lower-attendance SCG/GP where you need to top 64 to prize, you need a win rate of 77%.

When using the win-rate algorithm was prevalent on social media via planeswalker point reverse lookups, my fellow mtg peers were boasting their winrates of 60-70%. My legacy winrate at the time (~1 year from this posting) was 89.6%, by far the highest I saw posted. Granted this is from many many builds of 12post and therefore cannot be attributed to a particular build. But the point still remains, to achieve success at larger events, where variance because more evenly distributed, you need an extremely high winrate.

When I test deck ideas with teammates, we consider the 65-75% win rate the "lurking" stage of deck design. The deck needs "something" to propel it forward to the highest levels of competitive play. That factor could be many things: More knowledge/nuanced play of the deck, better meta predictions, sideboard work, mainboard adjustments, or ultimately, to wait for future cards to be printed. At any given time, our team has 15-17 decks in this category, most waiting on future printings of cards, but some with the other factors sprinkled in.

[Mr. Froggy]

A list would tantalize my eyes, sir.

Was something close to this:

Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Forest
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Taiga
3 Vesuva
3 Wooded Foothills

Creatures
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Mina and Denn, Wildborn
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Thought-Knot Seer

Spells
3 Ancient Stirrings
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Crop Rotation
3 Kozilek's Return
3 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Trinisphere
3 Expedition Map

[maCHOOga]

Was something close to this:

Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Forest
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Taiga
3 Vesuva
3 Wooded Foothills

Creatures
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Mina and Denn, Wildborn
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Thought-Knot Seer

Spells
3 Ancient Stirrings
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Crop Rotation
3 Kozilek's Return
3 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Trinisphere
3 Expedition Map

Needs more Bonfire (of the Damned)! We've been talking about brewing a G/r hybrid for ages. More importantly, what kind of sideboard cards do you run? White/Blue seem to give access to some awesome SB cards, being hate cards (white) and counterspells (blue).

[Ricardio]

no through the breachs or sneak attacks?!?

[caw_86]

https://i.imgur.com/48Nw3vR.png

[Leshrac82]

When using the win-rate algorithm was prevalent on social media via planeswalker point reverse lookups, my fellow mtg peers were boasting their winrates of 60-70%. My legacy winrate at the time (~1 year from this posting) was 89.6%, by far the highest I saw posted. Granted this is from many many builds of 12post and therefore cannot be attributed to a particular build. But the point still remains, to achieve success at larger events, where variance because more evenly distributed, you need an extremely high winrate.

Grats to that winrate - assuming you have a large enough samplesize to rule out variance, that's very impressive and shows your skill as a player.

The thing is: I assume other people tried your 12post builds, because you had a lot of success with them. If your winrate was just the result of good deck design, they would have won almost as much and the deck would be banned by now. But it isn't, it's still a Tier 2 deck at best, so it probably didn't work out for them.

Now i'm offering a new deck idea, and there is no reason to assume i'm anywhere near your skill level as a player. And my winrate with the deck is great for an average player, you said it yourself: Other players were happy with 60-70% winrate, i'm at the upper end of that. And still almost nobody else seemed interested in the deck at all. That's what i don't understand.

[Lormador]

I've picked up the last Tropical Island and trio of Show and Tells needed for the deck and thrown my lot in with you guys, starting off with one of Rock Lee's UG builds: one with 3 Shows 0 Candelabra 2 Spirit Dragons and 4 MD Trickbinds. I played against him a couple of times years ago (on the losing end, as I recall) and was always impressed by his dedication to this deck and ability to tune it.

Apparently this deck is not like others I've played, where a few minutes (or hours) of research can turn up a tuned list, with identifiable flex slots. The lists one finds are so different from one another, and what is one to make of Rock Lee's frequent posting of different decks that each conquer his weekly with extreme prejudice? It's on the edge of context collapse, though more likely it's simply wildly unrealistic to expect to understand someone's serious work on the deck in the course of an evening.

I made the effort to read the 50 most recent pages of the thread though, and I do have a few questions that I'd appreciate a more experienced 12Poster answering.


What happened to Warping Wail in UG? This card was the hotness at one point.
Ancient Stirrings mostly vanished from UG lists; I'm curious as to why.
4 Trickbind seems like a lot alongside 3 MD Needle. Aside from protection against Wasteland, what is it mainly for?


I realize that there are a load of weird situations where I'll be able to Trickbind for value, and even in my first testing match against Omnitell it was a life saver, part of the key triumvirate with Krosan Grip and Primeval Titan that together made it impossible for my opponent to go off with the SnT-->Omniscience-->Emrakul plan that he happened to be on.

EDIT: As I'm fresh with the uninformed prejudices of the masses, I have an idea why this deck isn't more attractive. First, it doesn't have a lot of high level finishes, so it seems pretty fringe. Then, 4 Tropical Island is a lot, the only other 4 Trop deck is Infect which just won a GP. Further, besides the Trops, one still needs at least 3 Show and Tell, a fairly expensive card, and the other decks playing Show don't need anything like 4 Trops. A lot of lists run Candelabra of Tawnos, and what else are we going to play with using this $300-$400 card, High Tide? Please. Then there's the Tabernacle, and while some people are apparently willing to pay for it to play Lands where it's a beautiful centerpiece of the deck, here it's often relegated to the sideboard if it's played at all.

It's a major expense and commitment to a deck that has some polarized matchups, combo obviously can go wrong and Delver is not easy.

[Mr. Froggy]

no through the breachs or sneak attacks?!?

Nope! Don't need 'em!

[Rock Lee]

What happened to Warping Wail in UG? This card was the hotness at one point.
Ancient Stirrings mostly vanished from UG lists; I'm curious as to why.
4 Trickbind seems like a lot alongside 3 MD Needle. Aside from protection against Wasteland, what is it mainly for?


I still play Warping Wail x3-x4 in UG. the card is bonkers.

Ancient stirrings being sorcery speed and not getting Primeval Titan are two major detractors. The UG version mostly plays in the EOT step, and stirrings fights that. For builds with lower-candelabra count, or which are tuned specifically for artifact removal (EE + needle) ancient stirrings isn't bad at all.

Trickbind was mostly a pre-warping wail printing maindeck answer to random combo and storm. Warping Wail has overwhelmingly taken the card's spot.

[Lormador]

The UG version mostly plays in the EOT step, and stirrings fights that.

This is very helpful, and also illuminates the main purpose of Gitaxian Probe, does it not? Perfect information leads to safer Show and Tells, as well as knowing when I can just go for it with a risky-looking Crop Rotation into Primeval Titan with no backup.

[cwcomposer]

I have been playing mono green 11post on mtgo and its been quite entertaining. What is your current list?

This is what I'll bring this weekend to SCG Worcester:

Maindeck:

4 Primeval Titan
1 Oracle of Mul Daya

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger


2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pithing Needle
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
4 Warping Wail
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Candelabra of Tawnos


4 Cloudpost

4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva

1 Thespian's Stage

4 Forest
2 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboard:

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Rest In Peace
1 Trinisphere
1 Sphere of Resistance
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Moment's Peace
3 Leyline of Sanctity

[Ricardio]

This is what I'll bring this weekend to SCG Worcester:

Maindeck:

4 Primeval Titan
1 Oracle of Mul Daya

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger


2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pithing Needle
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
4 Warping Wail
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Candelabra of Tawnos


4 Cloudpost

4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva

1 Thespian's Stage

4 Forest
2 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboard:

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Rest In Peace
1 Trinisphere
1 Sphere of Resistance
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Moment's Peace
3 Leyline of Sanctity

Oracle seemed underwhelming for me. I will retry it.
3 gsz for 6 (8) targets seems like a lot but the single green makes sense. I will look into GSZ
Warping wail must be a card I don't understand bc it was always dead for me.
only 1 candle? I enjoy the second quite a bit.
No depth with the stage?
I have never been a fan of dryad arbor, not as a land anyway.
I want to play cavern but 41 tix is more than I am willing to spend on a land in one deck.
Only 2 vesuva/1 maze? 3 vesuva has been good but maybe 1 maze is correct.
My sb looks like it was made by a yugioh player in the dark.

You have more experience than I do so I will defer to your judgement.

I was hoping there was a sneak attack RG version.

[mykatdied]

I was hoping there was a sneak attack RG version.

You could be the first!

[Mockingbird]

So... we have another *thing* to discuss.

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/725750-mtg-japan-stunning-growth#c1

Stunning Growth
:3::g:
Sorcery
Return all land cards from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped.

It seems like sideboard material against those decks that just *love* to blow up lands. It also retrieves lands Crop Rotated away as well as any other random reason we have lands in the grave. Unlike Crucible, it's all of them at once, and unlike most other retrieval options, it's to the battlefield... tapped, but we're used to that.

Perhaps this is just better fit for Lands.dec, but it seems test worthy.

[mykatdied]

So... we have another *thing* to discuss.

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/725750-mtg-japan-stunning-growth#c1

Stunning Growth
:3::g:
Sorcery
Return all land cards from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped.

It seems like sideboard material against those decks that just *love* to blow up lands. It also retrieves lands Crop Rotated away as well as any other random reason we have lands in the grave. Unlike Crucible, it's all of them at once, and unlike most other retrieval options, it's to the battlefield... tapped, but we're used to that.

Perhaps this is just better fit for Lands.dec, but it seems test worthy.

Honestly seems great against loam decks, mostly for mono green since you need to still be able to grab enough basics to be sure to cast this. But using that new instant spell that mills and return a creature or land, plus this could work towards a new build of the deck that could potentially maximize the long game and efficiency of the deck against a deck like lands.

[TheBoozeCube]

So... we have another *thing* to discuss.

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/725750-mtg-japan-stunning-growth#c1

Stunning Growth
:3::g:
Sorcery
Return all land cards from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped.

It seems like sideboard material against those decks that just *love* to blow up lands. It also retrieves lands Crop Rotated away as well as any other random reason we have lands in the grave. Unlike Crucible, it's all of them at once, and unlike most other retrieval options, it's to the battlefield... tapped, but we're used to that.

Perhaps this is just better fit for Lands.dec, but it seems test worthy.

Definitely test worthy. At the very least, it seems like a reasonable sideboard option in a Wasteland-heavy meta.


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[k_omega]

Oracle seemed underwhelming for me. I will retry it.
3 gsz for 6 (8) targets seems like a lot but the single green makes sense. I will look into GSZ
Warping wail must be a card I don't understand bc it was always dead for me.
only 1 candle? I enjoy the second quite a bit.
No depth with the stage?
I have never been a fan of dryad arbor, not as a land anyway.
I want to play cavern but 41 tix is more than I am willing to spend on a land in one deck.


Not my decklist, but:

* Oracle+Top fights grindy decks that attack your hand and have trouble removing the Oracle, e.g. varieties of BUG.
* Whether 3 GSZ is a lot depends on how often you want to fetch Dryad Arbor with it. The downside of treating it as titans 5-7 is that you will have games with additional "Primeval Titans" sitting uncastable in your hand.
* If Warping Wail seems dead to you then I suspect you haven't played against the right matchups enough. :)
* I played with 0 Candelabras for several months and still did well. I play 1 now with Ancient Stirrings to find it, and in your case I think 0, 1, or 2 are all defensible. Don't concern yourself too much with the number.
* Stage/Depths is unreliable - too many decks can answer a single Marit Lage and we can't realistically recur the combo. You can play it if you want and it will win you some games, but it's certainly not necessary. You will also lose games to having a random Dark Depths and nothing to do with it.
* Play Khalni Garden instead of Dryad Arbor. No, it can't be fetched or GSZ'ed for, but it doesn't transform random bolts and swords into stone rains and it can be reused with Vesuva after the token blocks. It helps to have a searchable land for edict protection so I would pick one of the two. Also, people will bring in Containment Priest/Grafdigger's Cage when they see your GSZ but neither of those stop the Garden token.
* Your budget is up to you, but you should decide how OK you are with titans getting countered. If you had to decide between acquiring a second Candelabra and the first Cavern I would strongly recommend the Cavern.

[TheBoozeCube]

* Your budget is up to you, but you should decide how OK you are with titans getting countered. If you had to decide between acquiring a second Candelabra and the first Cavern I would strongly recommend the Cavern.

I would disagree. Not just because Candelabra is insanely powerful (which it is — I run the full 4x), but also because it's at risk of a buyout. If you want Candelabras, get them now before they inevitably spike for no good reason.


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[MechTactical]

Welcome on board Lormador! Nice to see ppl spending hard earned cash on this deck... I've spend a ton of money on this deck and I'm still having fun and I'm still spending money :laugh:

I've been playing caw's list with Rock's SB. The list feels very balanced and strong. The issues I'm trying to solve ATM are magus and knight of the reliquary. I've added 2x o-stones to the board. Usually they work fine against magus but not against knight, since they often get decayed.
I mean the match-up is not unwinnable it's just that loam can lock you out of the game pretty easily. I lost a game where i surgical extracted his wastelands on T1 (and thought i won the game), only to be overrun by knights in the next few turns. SnT would help greatly in these tight spots, but the list runs only 2 :frown: Though I have excepted the greater wisdom of more experienced players on this issue i still think we should run at least 3? :really:
Anyhow I would love to have a universal removal in the board that could reliably take out these two calamities and more of course. I've tried perilous vault but the extra mana cost means it can be too slow, especially if you are being wasted to oblivion and it's hard to cast anything above 2-3 cmc... dismember I've tried and i really don't like the 4 life cost, too painful for my taste... Pyrite Spellbomb seems too narrow and Steel Hellkite seems too expensive. What else can we run to keep the battlefield clean and tidy considering the current meta where ugin sucks?

[thelastbeast]

I would disagree. Not just because Candelabra is insanely powerful (which it is — I run the full 4x)...

This is as good a time to ask as any - do you have a recent list handy? I've mostly been playing UG lately, but I've also really enjoyed what I've come to call BoozePost when I've played it in the past and I'll probably sleeve it up again soon. I'd been using the same mainboard that you posted months back with a few sideboard tweaks based on my locals, and I'm curious as to whether you'd had any successful changes since then.

[cwcomposer]

You have more experience than I do so I will defer to your judgement.

First off, I only have limited experience with this deck. I got into Legacy about two months ago, so I'm still learning, still tweaking. One thing I like about Titan Post is that there is no unified decklist and I can adjust the deck as I play, test things out, draw my own conclusions, make my own revisions, and feel like I have a small sense of ownership over my list.


Oracle seemed underwhelming for me. I will retry it.

For me, Oracle is a great way to ramp mana, provide a blocker in a desperate pinch, and with Top lets you just plow through your deck.


3 gsz for 6 (8) targets seems like a lot but the single green makes sense. I will look into GSZ

I know a few people on here don't care for Green Sun's Zenith and maybe one day I'll cut it. But it was one of those cards that got me excited the first time I read it on the Modern banlist. It's great for getting Dryad Arbor turn one, Gaddock Teeg without the white source, and works as Primeval Titan 5-7 (costing one additional mana but only one green source).


Warping wail must be a card I don't understand bc it was always dead for me.

This card is generally an all-star. It counters a lot of "gotcha!" cards in the format, including some deck's win-cons. It kills pesky creatures like Deathrite Shaman. It provides an instant-speed blocker or a creature to sacrifice to Lilliana. And in the worst-case scenario, it gives you an extra mana on your next turn.


only 1 candle? I enjoy the second quite a bit.

I tried to buy a second one but my bank account started to yell at me.


No depth with the stage?

A number of people recommended against Dark Depths. I keep one Stage because it's a good way to copy a utility land (Glacial Chasm! Maze of Ith!). Sure, it's a little slow, but it works out. And because it's so often paired with Dark Depths, sometimes your opponent will play around the combo without knowing you don't actually have it! It's also great in the match against Lands; last week, my Lands opponent started to combo off with his own Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage, and I responded by copying his Depths for my own Marit Lage! He scooped.


I have never been a fan of dryad arbor, not as a land anyway.

I, too, have mixed feelings on this card. Another semi-popular option as an alternative is Khalni Garden.


Only 2 vesuva/1 maze? 3 vesuva has been good but maybe 1 maze is correct.

I've occasionally seen a list with two Maze of Ith. In some metagames that's probably correct. Some have also suggested to me that I add a third Vesuva, but I just worry it'll increase the odds of having a dead one in my opening hand. It's a great card... but not if it's your only land for turn one!

[cwcomposer]

I would disagree. Not just because Candelabra is insanely powerful (which it is — I run the full 4x), but also because it's at risk of a buyout. If you want Candelabras, get them now before they inevitably spike for no good reason.

This idea has weighed heavily on me following the recent ugliness.

[Drixx]

The issues I'm trying to solve ATM are magus and knight of the reliquary. I've added 2x o-stones to the board. Usually they work fine against magus but not against knight, since they often get decayed.
I mean the match-up is not unwinnable it's just that loam can lock you out of the game pretty easily. I lost a game where i surgical extracted his wastelands on T1 (and thought i won the game), only to be overrun by knights in the next few turns.


EE for 3 or for 0 chalice clean the way for crop rotation best card agains non-blue midrange aggro decks keep ramp and don't let them chance to you slow down with your mana i play fourth crop in side for sure and then you can try Nevinyrral´s Disk( why to be afraid because of he entrers the battlefield tapped anyway against fast decks you don't have 8,9 mana to smash table with o stone or with perilous vault in third or fourth turn without locuses but with ND you spend only 5 m. then you can try submerge,sower of temtation(just knight of reliquary question) . cau

[maCHOOga]

So... we have another *thing* to discuss.

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/725750-mtg-japan-stunning-growth#c1

Stunning Growth
:3::g:
Sorcery
Return all land cards from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped.

It seems like sideboard material against those decks that just *love* to blow up lands. It also retrieves lands Crop Rotated away as well as any other random reason we have lands in the grave. Unlike Crucible, it's all of them at once, and unlike most other retrieval options, it's to the battlefield... tapped, but we're used to that.

Perhaps this is just better fit for Lands.dec, but it seems test worthy.

This seems like an awesome card to me at least trying it out in the SB. It's also a 'potential' way to recover from sweepers: Boom/Bust, Armageddon, From the Ashes and Cataclysm. It also makes me wonder if there's a G/B build where we can dump lands into the graveyard and then bring them all back with this card.


I would disagree. Not just because Candelabra is insanely powerful (which it is — I run the full 4x), but also because it's at risk of a buyout. If you want Candelabras, get them now before they inevitably spike for no good reason.


Don't give the Magic Illuminati any ideas. There's been buyouts of multiple reserve list cards this week...

[cwcomposer]

Don't give the Magic Illuminati any ideas. There's been buyouts of multiple reserve list cards this week...

Foil Crop Rotation (for those who care about shiny things) apparently just spiked...

I wonder if a Candelabra buyout is on the horizon. I really hope it's too underplayed to be a good target as I'd love to get a second one. At the same time, if these buyouts keep happening, the format's just gonna die off anyway.

[maCHOOga]

Foil Crop Rotation (for those who care about shiny things) apparently just spiked...

I wonder if a Candelabra buyout is on the horizon. I really hope it's too underplayed to be a good target as I'd love to get a second one. At the same time, if these buyouts keep happening, the format's just gonna die off anyway.

Oh I know... do you know what's more annoying than have 0 foil crop rotations, having 3 and playing 4! #foilworldproblems

[Mockingbird]

Foil Crop Rotation (for those who care about shiny things) apparently just spiked...

I wonder if a Candelabra buyout is on the horizon. I really hope it's too underplayed to be a good target as I'd love to get a second one. At the same time, if these buyouts keep happening, the format's just gonna die off anyway.

Allegedly Martin Shkreli (the man caught frauding the stock market and more infamously openly inflating drug prices with the justification being profit) went to reddit this weekend and made inquiries about getting involved with Magic: the Gathering secondary market.

Edit: it's real http://kotaku.com/infamous-price-gouger-martin-shkreli-wants-to-collect-r-1783278015

[TheBoozeCube]

Foil Crop Rotation (for those who care about shiny things) apparently just spiked...

I wonder if a Candelabra buyout is on the horizon. I really hope it's too underplayed to be a good target as I'd love to get a second one. At the same time, if these buyouts keep happening, the format's just gonna die off anyway.

It's not heavily played, but there's just so few copies on TCGPlayer that someone could probably do it for a few thousand dollars. The only card that is really analogous is Workshop – the other money card from AQ. It doesn't see much more play, since Vintage doesn't see much play, and that's $1000+ now. My point is that if you want Candles to play with before they become even more inaccessible, time is running out before the scumbags ruin it.


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[TheBoozeCube]

This is as good a time to ask as any - do you have a recent list handy? I've mostly been playing UG lately, but I've also really enjoyed what I've come to call BoozePost when I've played it in the past and I'll probably sleeve it up again soon. I'd been using the same mainboard that you posted months back with a few sideboard tweaks based on my locals, and I'm curious as to whether you'd had any successful changes since then.

My list is pretty much the same, although I've been testing a number of minor tweaks online. I have yet to decide on anything stable. Basically, I'm toying with various configurations of:

+1 Dark Depths main (back to 61). Still very much on the fence about whether I like it or not.

1x MD All Is Dust <–> SB O-Stone. Theory is to improve Eldrazi matchup, although it's worse vs almost everything else besides Blood Moon Stompy decks. Still undecided.

2x Silent Arbiter SB. Been very pleased with it so far.

2x Ratchet Bomb SB. Still undecided. Great when it's great.



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[cwcomposer]

[...]if you want Candles to play with before they become even more inaccessible, time is running out before the scumbags ruin it.

*puts fingers in ears* "la la la la la la la!" :tongue:

[Lormador]

MechTactical welcomed me to the thread on the last page. Thank you for that. It's rare and special to be welcomed on to a thread. Trust me, I've spent a lot of time on the Miracles thread, and folks aren't exactly welcomed when they join that one.

Candelabra will inevitably be targeted by the buyout artists, and it probably won't be very long in coming now that they're running low on other reserved list staples to buy out. The one meager defense that the longtime player has against this nonsense is already owning a good amount of Reserved list stuff, which naturally defends against other spikes as the needed cards can be traded into instead of bought. My wife never gets mad when I turn cardboard into other cardboard, only when I turn cash into cardboard.

A related topic might be the use of the Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale in Post decks. I noticed it years ago and always somewhat doubted how good it was here, where no other element of the deck provides synergy with its tax effect. Yet now that it appears I have an excuse to get one, I wonder if any wiser heads might enlighten me. When is it good? How was it in the Maverick meta, the first Miracles meta, the TC meta, the DDT meta, and now the Eldrazi meta? I do rather look forward to casting Emrakul, the Gig is Up and having my opponent choose not to pay the tax this time around.

Green Replenish for lands makes me happy too. Wizards, stop giving the deck new things! I haven't even sorted out the old things yet!

[cwcomposer]

A related topic might be the use of the Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale in Post decks. I noticed it years ago and always somewhat doubted how good it was here, where no other element of the deck provides synergy with its tax effect. Yet now that it appears I have an excuse to get one, I wonder if any wiser heads might enlighten me. When is it good? How was it in the Maverick meta, the first Miracles meta, the TC meta, the DDT meta, and now the Eldrazi meta? I do rather look forward to casting Emrakul, the Gig is Up and having my opponent choose not to pay the tax this time around.

In my (admittedly limited) experience thus far, Tabernacle is great against decks with Young Pyromancer or any other token generators, as they create more tokens than they can pay to keep, and against Eldrazi, as it mitigates the "discount" they get off Eye of Ugin. "Sure, go ahead and throw out a a turn one Eye of Ugin and two Eldrazi Mimics. You won't get to keep them next turn."

[Leshrac82]

A related topic might be the use of the Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale in Post decks. I noticed it years ago and always somewhat doubted how good it was here, where no other element of the deck provides synergy with its tax effect. Yet now that it appears I have an excuse to get one, I wonder if any wiser heads might enlighten me. When is it good?

Tabernacle is good against Pyromancer, it's also generally solid against decks relying on creatures without many mana sources. Even if a Delver deck doesn't play Pyromancer, there are many situations where Tabernacle is really good. It can be solid in specific situations against pretty much every midrange deck - sometimes they are flooded, than it's pretty useless, but if their mana is tight it can be strong. It can be a blowout against Dredge (although Bojuka Bog does that job even better).
And then there's Empty the Warrens. Sometimes Storm will use that against us, although that's rare. Belcher will always use that card though, in this matchup Tabernacle is the most important card in the deck by far, and Belcher might actually be a relevant deck right now. Going by my results and how the games played out, having access to Tabernacle turns this from ~20% into ~80% winrate.

[TTX]

Is Amulet of Vigor a reasonable sideboard option to combat the new Thalia?


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[mykatdied]

Is Amulet of Vigor a reasonable sideboard option to combat the new Thalia?


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I imagine that candelabra is really good for combating thalia as well as port. Amulet would be an interesting addition given the new card Stunning Growth.

[TheBoozeCube]

A related topic might be the use of the Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale in Post decks. I noticed it years ago and always somewhat doubted how good it was here, where no other element of the deck provides synergy with its tax effect. Yet now that it appears I have an excuse to get one, I wonder if any wiser heads might enlighten me. When is it good? How was it in the Maverick meta, the first Miracles meta, the TC meta, the DDT meta, and now the Eldrazi meta? I do rather look forward to casting Emrakul, the Gig is Up and having my opponent choose not to pay the tax this time around.

It's also good vs Monastery Mentor. It's kind of annoying, as I used to be able to board it out vs Miracles.

It's also respectable vs Shardless and non-Pyro Delver (especially classic Temur) if you land it early. I probably wouldn't tutor for it, but if you draw it naturally, it can really mess them up, as they tend to be land light, and force them to spend a Wasteland to get rid of it.

It's solid vs any deck that plays Aether Vial for the same reason, except that it's often worth tutoring because you're more likely to actually kill stuff with it.

It's great at slowing down Elves. Worst case scenario, it negates their Cradle.


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[TheBoozeCube]

I imagine that candelabra is really good for combating thalia as well as port. Amulet would be an interesting addition given the new card Stunning Growth.

Why bother? Our lands that matter already come in tapped.

Edit: Nevermind, I didn't see you were talking about the new land Replenish. That could be interesting. Thalia seems like a nuisance, but not remotely worth a sideboard slot.

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[Rock Lee]

This seems like an awesome card to me at least trying it out in the SB. It's also a 'potential' way to recover from sweepers: Boom/Bust, Armageddon, From the Ashes and Cataclysm. It also makes me wonder if there's a G/B build where we can dump lands into the graveyard and then bring them all back with this card.



Don't give the Magic Illuminati any ideas. There's been buyouts of multiple reserve list cards this week...

I can't believe you didn't mention the Best 0 cmc artifact of all time, not Black Lotus, Zuran's Orb!

[mykatdied]

I can't believe you didn't mention the Best 0 cmc artifact of all time, not Black Lotus, Zuran's Orb!

That would be sweet tech vs burn with zuran orb. Gain like 6-10 life in response to price, then bring them all back with stunning growth.

[TheBoozeCube]

Are people still testing with Forcefield? I've been wanting one for a while, so I just pulled the trigger on one in light of all the buyout madness. Curious how it's been working out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lormador]

Well, Zorb is tutorable with Trinket Mage, whom I'm coming to appreciate with my 1 Candelabra.

You guys were totally right about Warping Wail, it may have been my #1 MVP in testing last night. Along with the usual unflipped Delver and Thalia kills, I got a Monastery Swiftspear with prowess trigger on the stack, and got 2 turns of chump blocking a Sword-equipped Mirran Crusader, giving me enough time to comfortably take the game. I even got rid of a troublesome Fiend Hunter who had rudely exiled my Emrakul, which resulted in the uncomfortable demise of said Mirran Crusader.

I'd like to take a moment for special thanks to Wizards for making the Modern format, which made the scraps of not-good-enough-for-Legacy cards collecting dust in my collection valuable enough to buylist for a Tabernacle. What a pretty card, I've always coveted it. I'm tempted to MD it, and not just to show it off, but because there are very few GY decks in my meta and it mostly seems to be an ETB tapped black mana producer.

You guys have a nice community going on here in this thread, no one has belittled me or asked me to refer to something discussed 30 pages back. I did read a lot of this thread, but it's pretty Homeric.

On a more serious note re: Zorb, we aren't serious about this card, right? Wouldn't we rather have Flusterstorms and/or Hydroblasts from the board?

[thelastbeast]

My list is pretty much the same, although I've been testing a number of minor tweaks online. I have yet to decide on anything stable. Basically, I'm toying with various configurations of:

+1 Dark Depths main (back to 61). Still very much on the fence about whether I like it or not.

1x MD All Is Dust <–> SB O-Stone. Theory is to improve Eldrazi matchup, although it's worse vs almost everything else besides Blood Moon Stompy decks. Still undecided.

2x Silent Arbiter SB. Been very pleased with it so far.

2x Ratchet Bomb SB. Still undecided. Great when it's great.


Appreciate it! I'd swapped All is Dust and O-Stone back and forth a bit myself and settled on having at least one maindeck O-Stone for Eldrazi last time I played, though I haven't seen as much of that around locally lately as I did a few months back. I tried Dark Depths once and never really felt I needed it personally, though I did enjoy how opponents would play around it whenever I dropped a Stage regardless of whether Depths was in my list or not...

[cwcomposer]

Someone bought out at least the four Candelabras from abugames last night. The price has spiked on TCG. All I needed was one more day to pick one up tomorrow at SCG Worcester.

[mykatdied]

Well, Zorb is tutorable with Trinket Mage, whom I'm coming to appreciate with my 1 Candelabra.

You guys were totally right about Warping Wail, it may have been my #1 MVP in testing last night. Along with the usual unflipped Delver and Thalia kills, I got a Monastery Swiftspear with prowess trigger on the stack, and got 2 turns of chump blocking a Sword-equipped Mirran Crusader, giving me enough time to comfortably take the game. I even got rid of a troublesome Fiend Hunter who had rudely exiled my Emrakul, which resulted in the uncomfortable demise of said Mirran Crusader.

I'd like to take a moment for special thanks to Wizards for making the Modern format, which made the scraps of not-good-enough-for-Legacy cards collecting dust in my collection valuable enough to buylist for a Tabernacle. What a pretty card, I've always coveted it. I'm tempted to MD it, and not just to show it off, but because there are very few GY decks in my meta and it mostly seems to be an ETB tapped black mana producer.

You guys have a nice community going on here in this thread, no one has belittled me or asked me to refer to something discussed 30 pages back. I did read a lot of this thread, but it's pretty Homeric.

On a more serious note re: Zorb, we aren't serious about this card, right? Wouldn't we rather have Flusterstorms and/or Hydroblasts from the board?

Please reference page x for that answer ;)

In all seriousness with that new land replenish zuran orb might not be a terrible idea to consider against burn. Not sure we want to put all of our eggs in that basket since the match up can still be tough. It's likely better to just hope to dodge or race them relying on draws and skill level to outplay and outlast the onslaught. I personally love sphere and ulamog for that match up.

[maCHOOga]

Looks like the magic illuminati are at work. Candelabra buyouts must have started yesterday. MTGstocks showed that they are up +$50 today.

@RockLee. Do'h completely for Zuran Orb. C-c-c-c-c-Combo!

Lastly, good luck to all attending SCG Worchester!

[cwcomposer]

Looks like the magic illuminati are at work. Candelabra buyouts must have started yesterday. MTGstocks showed that they are up +$50 today.

One guy I contacted on Facebook said all three that he had listed got bought by someone last night around 1:00 am.


Lastly, good luck to all attending SCG Worchester!

Thank you! :)

[Lormador]

Someone bought out at least the four Candelabras from abugames last night. The price has spiked on TCG. All I needed was one more day to pick one up tomorrow at SCG Worcester.

It really is almost as if they read this thread and began the buyout just after we discussed it. I beat it by a day, and I'm sorry to hear that you missed it by a day.

The market is doing really stupid things this week, both painful increases on highly sought-after cards and ridiculous spikes on Polar Kraken and Island of Wak-Wak.

[Rock Lee]

Made Day 2 Worcester with 21 points. Two loses were to Maverick and Merfolk, both of which were my fault with miss-sequenced lands/spells. Deck feels incredibly strong.

[Drixx]

Made Day 2 Worcester with 21 points. Two loses were to Maverick and Merfolk, both of which were my fault with miss-sequenced lands/spells. Deck feels incredibly strong.



hope more people made day two with this amazing deck anyway that's great and see you on coverage ;)

[cwcomposer]

Re: Candelabra prices. Venders yesterday at SCG Worcester had a total of seven for sale. Prices: $300, $350 (signed), $400 (signed), and from SCG's heavily-played case: $200, $225, $225, $225.

Not sure the small spike we saw this week in price is going to hold. If anyone would take advantage of it, it would be the vendors selling LEDs for $200+, etc.

[quantumactivist]

Good luck to all at SCG!

Just joined thesource to join the discussion here.

Finally picked up my 1st Candle yesterday, so finally got a complete U/G list. 1st complete legacy deck!

Are ppl still on Bridges/explosives md?

stoked to see some people in day 2!

[cwcomposer]

A couple thoughts / questions following yesterday at Worcester.

(1) Pithing Needle was amazing in every match it was relevant. I never didn't have a good target for it, was always happy those rare times I drew a second one, and was always--always--sad those times I didn't draw any at all. Should I just go to the full playset instead of running only three?

(2) Magus of the Moon destroyed me. I have Krosan Grip and Reclamation Sage to deal with Blood Moon, but I lost one match I think I could've won because my only answer to it was to "combo" eight separate lands with one of my 2 Ugins. Do I just resolve myself to losing to this card, or is there a way I should've prepared but didn't?

[mykatdied]

A couple thoughts / questions following yesterday at Worcester.

(1) Pithing Needle was amazing in every match it was relevant. I never didn't have a good target for it, was always happy those rare times I drew a second one, and was always--always--sad those times I didn't draw any at all. Should I just go to the full playset instead of running only three?

(2) Magus of the Moon destroyed me. I have Krosan Grip and Reclamation Sage to deal with Blood Moon, but I lost one match I think I could've won because my only answer to it was to "combo" eight separate lands with one of my 2 Ugins. Do I just resolve myself to losing to this card, or is there a way I should've prepared but didn't?

Which list are you on?

Green can drop basics and cast a primeval titan anyway.

UG can have access to repeal.

If you have red randomly then kozilek's return is fine.

[cwcomposer]

Green can drop basics and cast a primeval titan anyway.

I did twice. Both got Swords-ed. :(

[Rock Lee]

A couple thoughts / questions following yesterday at Worcester.

(1) Pithing Needle was amazing in every match it was relevant. I never didn't have a good target for it, was always happy those rare times I drew a second one, and was always--always--sad those times I didn't draw any at all. Should I just go to the full playset instead of running only three?

(2) Magus of the Moon destroyed me. I have Krosan Grip and Reclamation Sage to deal with Blood Moon, but I lost one match I think I could've won because my only answer to it was to "combo" eight separate lands with one of my 2 Ugins. Do I just resolve myself to losing to this card, or is there a way I should've prepared but didn't?

2 dismember and 2 song of the dryads. I faced imperial dnt twice, didn't drop a game.

[k_omega]

Are people still testing with Forcefield? I've been wanting one for a while, so I just pulled the trigger on one in light of all the buyout madness. Curious how it's been working out.


I used to play 1 Forcefield but cut it for a second Moment's Peace. My observations:
1) Situationally good against Infect - you need to land it with mana up on turn 2 or maybe 3, at a low poison total, and then hope they don't go wide. This proved too hard to do which was disgusting since I got one specifically to shore up this matchup.
2) Against Eldrazi it was OK, but you still need to deploy it with mana up and not have died first, and if you're at a low life total then the 1 unprevented damage per creature adds up too quickly.
3) The recurring theme is that Forcefield is great when the opponent: a) attacks with a single large creature and b) cannot go wide and c) doesn't pressure your life total before attacking. The natural conclusion is Lands, against which the card is hysterically good. I wouldn't say we particularly need the help though.

Moment's peace is still good against infect, better against attackers en masse (especially on the mana-efficiency axis), and still relevant though unexciting against Lands. I've moved Forcefield to an EDH deck where it will stay.

[MGB]

2 dismember and 2 song of the dryads. I faced imperial dnt twice, didn't drop a game.

How'd you do Day 2? Matchups?

[Rock Lee]

How'd you do Day 2? Matchups?

I went 10-5, with only one of those matchups being unwinnable with my cards in hand and options available. 10-5 got 4 people top 32, and 8 people not top 32. I was one of the not crowd, based on breakers of course.

Matchups were reanimator (loss [unwinnable]), lands (loss [punt]), sneaky show (loss [punt]), dnt (win), eldrazi aggro (win), bant tempo (win)

my list was as follows:
Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
3 [R] Tropical Island
3 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
2 [R] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion

// Spells
3 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [OGW] Warping Wall
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [10E] Pithing Needle
2 [OD] Moment's Peace
2 [C14] Song of the Dryads
1 [UGF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [JGC] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [C14] Reclamation Sage
SB: 2 [FNM] Dismember


Song was very cheeky, and a few of my losses were due to being over-excited about using it instead of going for stable known-plays. If I were to modify the list, I would go +1 needle to 4, -platinum emperion (never went for it once). And once Emrakul2 comes out, swap the ugin for Emrakul2.

Song of the Dryads:

Song was amazing, mostly as a pre-side for game 2 hate. But song'ing Magus of the Moon vs imperial painter in 2 different matches was hugely important. I also song'd multiple creatures vs Eldrazi Aggro to stop the pain.
In the neutral-side of things, I Song-Vesuva'd multiple things that were fun but didn't win me the game: Jace vs Miracles when I was already winning, Omniscience vs Omni to hardcast emrakul I had enough mana to cast, and magus of the moon as a chump blocker vs dnt when I already had a plan to win and didn't need the blockers.
Tragically, my Song enthusiasm got me most of my losses for the event. I greedily went for a Song-copy marit leige when I had moment's peace and they grip'd and killed me. I tapped out multiple occasions when simply holding up crop/moment's peace/warping wail was the right call. I aggressively ensured I had green mana when playing more important lands was the right play (karakas, proper land sequencing, chasm, etc)

I like Song, and its vesuva interaction is bonkers. Rather than cutting the card, I think I will simply curb my enthusiasm over it moving forward.

[MechTactical]

I went 10-5, with only one of those matchups being unwinnable with my cards in hand and options available. 10-5 got 4 people top 32, and 8 people not top 32. I was one of the not crowd, based on breakers of course.

Matchups were reanimator (loss [unwinnable]), lands (loss [punt]), sneaky show (loss [punt]), dnt (win), eldrazi aggro (win), bant tempo (win)

my list was as follows:
Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
3 [R] Tropical Island
3 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
2 [R] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion

// Spells
3 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [OGW] Warping Wall
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [10E] Pithing Needle
2 [OD] Moment's Peace
2 [C14] Song of the Dryads
1 [UGF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [JGC] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [C14] Reclamation Sage
SB: 2 [FNM] Dismember


Song was very cheeky, and a few of my losses were due to being over-excited about using it instead of going for stable known-plays. If I were to modify the list, I would go +1 needle to 4, -platinum emperion (never went for it once). And once Emrakul2 comes out, swap the ugin for Emrakul2.

Song of the Dryads:

Song was amazing, mostly as a pre-side for game 2 hate. But song'ing Magus of the Moon vs imperial painter in 2 different matches was hugely important. I also song'd multiple creatures vs Eldrazi Aggro to stop the pain.
In the neutral-side of things, I Song-Vesuva'd multiple things that were fun but didn't win me the game: Jace vs Miracles when I was already winning, Omniscience vs Omni to hardcast emrakul I had enough mana to cast, and magus of the moon as a chump blocker vs dnt when I already had a plan to win and didn't need the blockers.
Tragically, my Song enthusiasm got me most of my losses for the event. I greedily went for a Song-copy marit leige when I had moment's peace and they grip'd and killed me. I tapped out multiple occasions when simply holding up crop/moment's peace/warping wail was the right call. I aggressively ensured I had green mana when playing more important lands was the right play (karakas, proper land sequencing, chasm, etc)

I like Song, and its vesuva interaction is bonkers. Rather than cutting the card, I think I will simply curb my enthusiasm over it moving forward.

Congrats on the finish!

Going down on brainstorm and 0,00 SnT (with Plat)? was it worth it? :really:
As you know i am an SnT patriot. To me it seems like a waste of U not playing them...

[Leshrac82]

Song of the Dryads:

Song was amazing, mostly as a pre-side for game 2 hate. But song'ing Magus of the Moon vs imperial painter in 2 different matches was hugely important. I also song'd multiple creatures vs Eldrazi Aggro to stop the pain.
In the neutral-side of things, I Song-Vesuva'd multiple things that were fun but didn't win me the game: Jace vs Miracles when I was already winning, Omniscience vs Omni to hardcast emrakul I had enough mana to cast, and magus of the moon as a chump blocker vs dnt when I already had a plan to win and didn't need the blockers.
Tragically, my Song enthusiasm got me most of my losses for the event. I greedily went for a Song-copy marit leige when I had moment's peace and they grip'd and killed me. I tapped out multiple occasions when simply holding up crop/moment's peace/warping wail was the right call. I aggressively ensured I had green mana when playing more important lands was the right play (karakas, proper land sequencing, chasm, etc)

I like Song, and its vesuva interaction is bonkers. Rather than cutting the card, I think I will simply curb my enthusiasm over it moving forward.

I had never seen Song of the Dryads before. And even after you posted the card, i didn't realize it worked that way with Vesuva. That's kinda crazy, i guess i have to try it.

[Rock Lee]

Congrats on the finish!

Going down on brainstorm and 0,00 SnT (with Plat)? was it worth it? :really:
As you know i am an SnT patriot. To me it seems like a waste of U not playing them...

I'm not anti Show and Tell. I can say I didn't miss Show and tell at all that day EXCEPT against my lands matchup, which would have been a complete joke had I been running it. Against tempo though, where show and tell normally bullies them over, easy access to cavern with x8 tutors for it was plenty.

Of course, I played no burn decks, where again show and tell is key.

[mykatdied]

Just so I'm clear. You can song of the dryad a Marit Lage, jace, omniscience or whatever. Since it's a land Vesuva can copy. Since Vesuva doesn't have the enchantment on it, it becomes whatever you hit with song of the dryad? Is that what I'm gathering?

[203995014]

Just so I'm clear. You can song of the dryad a Marit Lage, jace, omniscience or whatever. Since it's a land Vesuva can copy. Since Vesuva doesn't have the enchantment on it, it becomes whatever you hit with song of the dryad? Is that what I'm gathering?

That is indeed the case.

[cwcomposer]

Just so I'm clear. You can song of the dryad a Marit Lage, jace, omniscience or whatever. Since it's a land Vesuva can copy. Since Vesuva doesn't have the enchantment on it, it becomes whatever you hit with song of the dryad? Is that what I'm gathering?

Oh, damnnnnnnnn...

So your Vesuva becomes "I get a copy of whatever I had enchanted with Song of the Dryads"...? I.e: You don't have a JtMS anymore but I do...?

[Skriger]

my list was as follows:
Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
3 [R] Tropical Island
3 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
2 [R] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion

// Spells
3 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [OGW] Warping Wall
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [10E] Pithing Needle
2 [OD] Moment's Peace
2 [C14] Song of the Dryads
1 [UGF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [JGC] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [C14] Reclamation Sage
SB: 2 [FNM] Dismember



You're essentially running a mono green list just splashing for Brainstorm. Wouldn't it just make it consistent to take out the blue all together and replace brainstorm with Ancient Stirrings at this point? I guess you still rely on flusterstorm in the SB just feels odd to have blue since you've thinned down to only 3 cards needing blue in your MB. What about even tossing in 2 Sylvan Library or something like that.

Second, Song of the Dryads seems to fit this deck really well. I have been still keeping Dark depths in mine so it got me thinking with Thespian's Stage it can be a really fun ability to morph it back if they try destroying it outside of being a land.

[MechTactical]

I'm not anti Show and Tell. I can say I didn't miss Show and tell at all that day EXCEPT against my lands matchup, which would have been a complete joke had I been running it. Against tempo though, where show and tell normally bullies them over, easy access to cavern with x8 tutors for it was plenty.

Of course, I played no burn decks, where again show and tell is key.

the match-ups u lost that day (except lands) were all SnT out... nevertheless i still see our "plan B" as: SnT - fetch - win. or do we want it to be: song - "cheeky play" - win?

[maCHOOga]

Oh, damnnnnnnnn...

So your Vesuva becomes "I get a copy of whatever I had enchanted with Song of the Dryads"...? I.e: You don't have a JtMS anymore but I do...?

Let me make sure I understand this Song's of the Dryads correctly.
1.) Vevusa enters as a copy of the enchanted land. If it copies a planeswalker, it enters the battlefield with the starting loyalty. Right?
2.) In a similar scenario, if I were to Thespian Stage a Song's planewalker. Does it start at the loyalty the planeswalker is currently stuck at or is it 0? This scenario is either super cool or super nombo.

@RockLee I could easily see where you could get color blinded to copy a marit liege with a Vesuva. #magicachievement

[Skriger]

Let me make sure I understand this Song's of the Dryads correctly.
1.) Vevusa enters as a copy of the enchanted land. If it copies a planeswalker, it enters the battlefield with the starting loyalty. Right?
2.) In a similar scenario, if I were to Thespian Stage a Song's planewalker. Does it start at the loyalty the planeswalker is currently stuck at or is it 0? This scenario is either super cool or super nombo.

@RockLee I could easily see where you could get color blinded to copy a marit liege with a Vesuva. #magicachievement

WotC judge chat says nope for Thespian's Stage, it would would copy with 0 counters and die. The loyalty counters starting amount only happens when it enters the battlefield. This is why you can cheat around dark depths. Vesuva will work.

[Rock Lee]

the match-ups u lost that day (except lands) were all SnT out... nevertheless i still see our "plan B" as: SnT - fetch - win. or do we want it to be: song - "cheeky play" - win?

I'm considering splashing white just for containment priest if I don't run show and tell. The card does heavy lifting against non omni/storm combo that grip doesn't hit.

[Pdingo]

@ nice run!
First song of the dryad combo seems nice:)
But yeah you have to find a target for it..
Like you said sometimes it's better to play standard plays like copying a land with vesuva but yes its allowes to copy some nice tricks if i understand it right.

I just dont understand why you not play mono g if you cut BS and SnT..i mean that's why you want to play blue if you can play those cards..
If you cut BS and SnT you should play mono G..
And 3 BS is just really sad ..i mean play 4 or 0..
It's not casual..it's legacy..

[Rock Lee]

@ nice run!
First song of the dryad combo seems nice:)
But yeah you have to find a target for it..
Like you said sometimes it's better to play standard plays like copying a land with vesuva but yes its allowes to copy some nice tricks if i understand it right.

I just dont understand why you not play mono g if you cut BS and SnT..i mean that's why you want to play blue if you can play those cards..
If you cut BS and SnT you should play mono G..
And 3 BS is just really sad ..i mean play 4 or 0..
It's not casual..it's legacy..

I understand your passion, and maybe my observation is due to speaking with native English speakers too often, but you assume much. I have had great success with the deck where the only blue card in it is brainstorm, no flusterstorms and I have only run 3 brainstorms many times to top tournament finishes.

You are running a combo deck reliant on your current mana, which will vary from 2-20. That variance means bricks in your hand, that hinder your plan, are lethal. Brainstorm fixes this. All the suggested cards (sylvan library, ancient stirrings and others) are almost always not at instant-speed, which is the fundamental trait of the blue list. I know of these cards. I have tested them exclusively. Mentioning them multiple times doesn't make that testing less valid. Without reasons to re-test them, I see no reason why they are now good. The deck plays best when reactionary, almost exclusively EOT.

My interest in Mono Green was increased with Warping Wail's printing, allowing for more EOT plays, and now Grapple with the Past has me very intrigued, giving you a brainstorm-similar play with serious outplay potential (counter one drs activation, anti-surgical, return chasm after sacrificing it) at a low cost. My critique of Mono Green wasn't the colors, it was the steps/phases it played in.

[Pdingo]

@rocklee
Sorry but 10-5 isn't a nice run and this just shows me how bad your choices are..

3 BS is wrong in legacy..I don't care about your testing.

And please don't judge people just because they try to write english correctly..maybe they are trying to learn it..

[mykatdied]

@rocklee
Sorry but 10-5 isn't a nice run and this just shows me how bad your choices are..

3 BS is wrong in legacy..I don't care about your testing.

And please don't judge people just because they try to write english correctly..maybe they are trying to learn it..

I'm confused about your disagreement with Rock. You said nice run, then because you two disagreed on a point of his decklist, you then say "no it isn't a nice run"

On the point of brainstorm. It can be a great tool to clean up bad draws, it can also lead to being locked into your next 2 draws. I highly doubt it is 100% incorrect to run 3 at times. I would doubt that running 1 or 2 is ever correct though.

Personally I'm an advocate for mono green or green with a light white splash. I run two Savannah to enable two copies of rest in peace and two copies of sacred ground. That is all I have for the white splash for because those two cards give me what I need in the matches they are meant for. I don't think there are better green options even though one may suggest that having access to four cards post board isn't worth it, I may as well not splash white.

On the other side. I am not sure why the "Native English" comment was posted but it was likely unnecessary Rock. Keep in mind that people from other countries often know 3 or 4 languages relatively well to the point of holding up medium conversation, if you felt like some thing was lost it's likely more appropriate to ask for clarification and teach them so they do in fact learn.

[Lormador]

Mono green has pros and cons that I am not going to be able to speak about intelligently.

I guess having some extra lines available from Song plus Vesuva can't be bad, but it can't ever really be good, right? This deck wins with a superior endgame of hardcast Eldrazi. The other player loses because he brought a knife to a gun fight. According to Rock's own testimony, the deck had all the usual winning lines available in the subset of games where the Vesuva value copy was possible. I surmise that the green O Ring might not be worth it.

Throughout the thread, Rock has emphasized the value of testing and data over theory and conjecture, and in principle I must agree. However, as a newcomer, I have a lot of experimentation yet to do, and brute force experimentation is not humanly possible given the card pool. Experiment is always conducted to investigate hypotheses, which are formed on theoretical grounds, so I think the best thing for newcomers like me is to develop a sound understanding of what this deck really does. With that done, experimentation can be done more efficiently, which is good considering how time consuming it is. So please correct me where I'm wrong.

Posts, Karakas, and Eye are the base game winning combination, requiring no cards in hand or nonland permanents, immune to counters. There are sub combos along the way that can win for less mana, but this is the flagship one. It's so hard to disrupt that it doesn't feel like other combos. It plows through control decks, mostly, due to this. They are poorly equipped either to race or to disrupt it. So where other combo runs discard or defensive counters, Turbo does not for the win requires no protection except against Wasteland. Similarly where other combo fears Reanimator pairings since that deck is both faster and more disruptive than other combo, every combo deck is Reanimator to us (at least G1).

What puts control into the deck is the relationship to aggro, which in Legacy today means tempo, Eldrazi, and Jund. Where other combo can beat those creatures on speed alone, we bring tools to interact with their clock like Repeal, Chasm, Wail, etc, as well as some stuff to reduce this problem, like those cheaper non-Emrakul win cons alluded to above, and Show and Win.

Accordingly, I'll be looking for a MD that just functionally does what I want, stopping Wasteland and getting Cavern into Titan on turn 4 often. It's the sideboard that will receive the most attention. I'm looking for cards to make the combo matchups winnable, fight the few cards that are haymakers like Moon and Price, and resist troublemaker cards like T1 Chalice on 1 and Hymn to Tourach. Once I have a pool of candidates I'll start testing. Suggestions are welcome, I'll share data from the results.

[Rock Lee]

On the other side. I am not sure why the "Native English" comment was posted but it was likely unnecessary Rock. Keep in mind that people from other countries often know 3 or 4 languages relatively well to the point of holding up medium conversation, if you felt like some thing was lost it's likely more appropriate to ask for clarification and teach them so they do in fact learn.


@rocklee
Sorry but 10-5 isn't a nice run and this just shows me how bad your choices are..

3 BS is wrong in legacy..I don't care about your testing.

And please don't judge people just because they try to write english correctly..maybe they are trying to learn it..


I understand your passion, and maybe my observation is due to speaking with native English speakers too often, but you assume much. I have had great success with the deck where the only blue card in it is brainstorm, no flusterstorms and I have only run 3 brainstorms many times to top tournament finishes.


Per these statements, my mentioning of English as 1st and/or proficient language was only an assumption because the mindset of "I have no testing, nor do I care to do some, but I have a strong unwavering opinion" was conveyed in the phrase:
"And 3 BS is just really sad ..i mean play 4 or 0.. It's not casual..it's legacy.."

I gave the benefit of the doubt, that the speaker was learning English and assumed I had lost the meaning in translation. Had such a statement come from a person I know to be fluent in English, my response would be more akin to "Clearly you have no interest in playing a competitive deck. Feel free to play whatever you want, and I will be content knowing your victories could always have been more frequent."

[Lormador]

Of all the slots in the deck, I doubt the fourth Brainstorm is the weakest. If we use Rock's builds as a metric, more of those play 4 than 3. If we applied statistical weights according to event size and placing, I doubt the data would be conclusively on the side of 3 BS. The deck has run Ponder in the past, so 5 might even be the right number. I'd run Ponder in a second if I weren't constrained into making a lot of colorless land drops.

I'm going to test the white Leyline against the Hymn decks and Storm. My idea against Storm is that they need Chain to bounce it, but can't strip my Swan or Fluster beforehand. Their backup goblin plan sinks to a Tabernacle. The games I tet this configuration should be won, right?

[mykatdied]

Of all the slots in the deck, I doubt the fourth Brainstorm is the weakest. If we use Rock's builds as a metric, more of those play 4 than 3. If we applied statistical weights according to event size and placing, I doubt the data would be conclusively on the side of 3 BS. The deck has run Ponder in the past, so 5 might even be the right number. I'd run Ponder in a second if I weren't constrained into making a lot of colorless land drops.

I'm going to test the white Leyline against the Hymn decks and Storm. My idea against Storm is that they need Chain to bounce it, but can't strip my Swan or Fluster beforehand. Their backup goblin plan sinks to a Tabernacle. The games I tet this configuration should be won, right?

Let me begin with, I run Gw. I ran leyline as a concession to how bad the storm match up can be. Between discard decks and no countermagic to help stop the combo I felt that I needed something. The issue with running leyline of Sanctity against storm is that, you HAVE to have it in your opening hand or it's way too slow. This means you need to mulligan to it. If you mulligan to it you either give up explosive hands that are more likely to win, or you are unlikely to have the necessary countermagic to stop the chain of vapor before they bounce leyline. If you give them 4 turns to dig before you can fine these things it is not difficult for them to be able to ad naseum to find the bounce spell and then kill you, or be able to build enough mana to use multiple infernal tutors to not only find chain of vapor but also the kill. I found that my best bet was usually a combination of tax effects, plus graveyard dumping. Grafdigger's Cage can go a long way in that match as well.

[Lormador]

I've run white Leylines in a couple of decks before, most successfully in Omnitell, so I'm used to using them. It really helps when you have Brainstorm to keep useless copies away from your grip, as well as countermagic to protect them.

I'm not the type of player to engage in idle speculation, and fortunately Leyline numbers are easy to crunch since they happen so early in the game. With the assumption that we definitely win games where we have a Leyline, blue mana, and a counter to defend the Leyline, we get these from the hypergeometric distribution (thank you deck-u-lator (http://deckulator.appspot.com/)):

Chance of Leyline in hand: 39.9% on 7 cards, 35.1% on 6 cards, 30.1% on 5 cards, 24.7% on 4 cards.

Chance of Leyline + blue source + counterspell with 10 blue sources and 4 counters: total 23.1% mulling from 7 to 3
Same with 6 counterspells: 29.9%

Including Brainstorm and SDT as virtual counterspells: 41.1% when 4 are boarded in, 55.2% when 6 are boarded in

...so getting the Leyline is not the problem, the problem is getting the counterspell after the Leyline makes the numbers icky. I simplified things, for example not calculating the probability that the library manipulation actually finds a counterspell, not looking for a second blue source to cast it on Turn 2 if it's found, not accounting for the card drawn G3 presumably on the draw, etc.

There's also the consideration that my Storm opponent is probably not going to be looking out for a Leyline from a UG Cloudpost deck, since these are much more widely known for playing the 12 counters plan, the GY hate plan, or the resistor plan. I agree that the resistors would probably be better against Storm specifically, but since we can't power them out T1 like the other decks playing them, they need to survive a Storm deck untapping with an Underground Sea in play.

If we accept the premise that a Storm player surprised by a white Leyline G2 loses that game (that is, ignoring the probability that I fail to find one in all that mulling or that he wins regardless), though, along with some of the above simplifying assumptions, and assume I lose 100% of G1s, then boarding Leylines + 6 counters would give Cloudpost a barely positive Storm matchup. About a 55.2% positive Storm matchup, though obviously with all the assumptions that number is not precise.

[Pdingo]

@ some storm hate
A friend of mine tried to hate storm with 3-4 leyline and 3-4 mindbreaktraps..As a storm player if he had it it's hard to handle.
The only problem here is do we really want to waste 6-8 slots just for storm? Of course leyline is fine against Discard like hymn, but the problem here is if we don't have the card in the first 7 then it's just getting bader if we mulligan just for leyline.
If some have a Stormbased Meta then you should use 8-10 slots maybe..but in a big open meta you should just ignore storm

@ Julian123
Yes i see your point! I'm really sorry for that!

Greets dingo

[Leshrac82]

1. Songs of the Dryad:
I tried that card for a few games in my Knight&Gitrog build. Don't know if i'm keeping it yet, but it's a solid card. This is a catch-all answer against any problematic permanent, and that's the reason to play it. The interaction with Vesuva is nice and can sometimes be relevant, but it's just a little bonus, nothing more. Without the Vesuva interaction it's basically a green O-Ring, and that card sees fringe play. With the bonus it might be good enough - or not, but i won't dismiss it without testing it.

2. Leyline:
I'm playing 3 copies in my board, for a while now. I can't mulligan to it with just 3 copies, but it's not the only way to beat Storm. Warping Wail and Crop Rotation are both very good cards against them.
The biggest problem i see with many 12post decks is that you can't close the game against Storm fast enough, especially not without tapping out on your turn. That's why i like Dark Depths so much against them, i just don't tap out at all and kill them in their end step if they don't go for it. Dark Depths is usually not faster than Storm (although it can happen, and is my best way to win Game 1), but if you have just 1-2 pieces of interaction they have to play around, they might not be able to go off before you do. Crop Rotation doubles as an answer and a win condition that way.
The Leylines just win games against Storm. More than once i had an opponent concede to a Leyline when he didn't expect it. And even if they do, they usually have just 2 answers for it, it's not that easy to find them and might just give me enough time to kill them.

I don't play any Spheres, because they expect them. Every Storm deck will board in Abrupt Decay.

And the Leylines are good in other matchups too - especially against Burn, sometimes against discard.

[maCHOOga]

Well it looks like the candelabra boat has just set sail. I hope you got on board. According to MTGO stocks, the Candelabra buyout occurred last night and they are now $675 each? That is just bananas!

[cwcomposer]

Well it looks like the candelabra boat has just set sail. I hope you got on board. According to MTGO stocks, the Candelabra buyout occurred last night and they are now $675 each? That is just bananas!

I bought an MP one yesterday for $300. TCG still has 12 copies listed, and while the prices are a little higher, they haven't really skyrocketed. And "market price" is still listed at $384.

I think that until copies actually sell at $675 each, I don't believe this buyout stuff anymore.

EDITED TO ADD: TCG mid, which is not only viewable through TCG collection tracker, lists $675, which I think is where MTGStocks may get a lot of their information.

[TheBoozeCube]

I just had a crazy idea: Doubling Cube. While Candelabra has a lot of secondary utility — mitigating Port, untapping Maze, etc. — Doubling Cube can do a respectable impression of Candle's primary function as an accelerant. Perhaps it could be a better budget alternative for folks who don't have their Candles yet.


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[Rock Lee]

I just had a crazy idea: Doubling Cube. While Candelabra has a lot of secondary utility — mitigating Port, untapping Maze, etc. — Doubling Cube can do a respectable impression of Candle's primary function as an accelerant. Perhaps it could be a better budget alternative for folks who don't have their Candles yet.


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The card is neat, but I remember math from when playing slaver in vintage 10 years back, that you only start net'ing positive at 8 mana thresholds, meaning you need 8+ mana to even make the card worth running.

I'm more a fan of Doubling Season, since if you copy planeswalkers with Songs->Vesuva they have double loyalty on them and you get 2 tokens instead of 1.

[Lormador]

It does look like a Candelabra buyout is in progress. Maybe it's different from earlier buyouts because I still see plenty of Candelabra for sale at the old prices. I'd like to pick up another one, but as my Magical dealings this month have already included a Tropical Island, one Candelabra, and a Tabernacle, my resources are a bit depleted. I think one is enough for me anyway, I'm running Trinket Mage.


@ some storm hate
A friend of mine tried to hate storm with 3-4 leyline and 3-4 mindbreaktraps..As a storm player if he had it it's hard to handle.
The only problem here is do we really want to waste 6-8 slots just for storm?

The question of whether it's worth the slots is of course primary. As my meta is unusual and isolated (I play in Beijing, and plan to head out to Chiba for the GP this year), I can work publicly on this forum without much worry that the local Chinese players will stumble across this forum, notice my plans, and get an edge on me.

OK, so first we need to identify what cards come out against each of the DTB, and I'm going to throw in a few decks that I know I will need to play against (since my meta is closed and well known to me).

Grixis Tempo: -Crop Rot -SnT(blasts) -Bojuka Bog
Miracles: -Crop Rot -SnT(blasts) -Bog -Chasm -Wail
Lands: -Chasm -Wail -Ugin
ANT: -Chasm -Trinket -Needle -E.E. -Repeal -Ugin
Eldrazi Stompy: -Wail -Repeal -Ugin
Infect: -SnT -Crop Rot
Shardless BUG -Chasm -Wail
BUG Delver Stifle: -Crop Rot -Trinket -Chasm
BUG Delver Hymn: -Crop Rot -Chasm
DnT: -Chasm
Sneaky Show: -Chasm -E.E. -Trinket
Food Chain: -Wail -Bog -Repeal

Once we know what should come out from a typical deck against all of these, we'll know how many live cards we want to bring in for the matchups, and we'll see whether it's feasible to meet the Storm menace with 10 cards. So, if you can think of any other cards typically run that should come out against each MU, or there's a card you take out for them that I missed, please let me know.

And yes, I do need a rock solid plan against Food Chain, one of the best players in the area has dedicated his life to that deck. He's ferocious with it.

[TheBoozeCube]

The card is neat, but I remember math from when playing slaver in vintage 10 years back, that you only start net'ing positive at 8 mana thresholds, meaning you need 8+ mana to even make the card worth running.

I'm more a fan of Doubling Season, since if you copy planeswalkers with Songs->Vesuva they have double loyalty on them and you get 2 tokens instead of 1.

Not counting the turn you play it, you only need 7 mana to begin netting mana, which is pretty easy for the deck to hit. So between Ugin and Emrakul, we have:

(7-3)x2 = 8
(8-3)x2 = 10
(9-3)x2 = 12
(10-3)x2 = 14
(11-3)x2 = 16

It's definitely no Candelabra, but it's only a 2 drop and 1/30th the price for people new to the deck.


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[MechTactical]

It does look like a Candelabra buyout is in progress. Maybe it's different from earlier buyouts because I still see plenty of Candelabra for sale at the old prices. I'd like to pick up another one, but as my Magical dealings this month have already included a Tropical Island, one Candelabra, and a Tabernacle, my resources are a bit depleted. I think one is enough for me anyway, I'm running Trinket Mage.



The question of whether it's worth the slots is of course primary. As my meta is unusual and isolated (I play in Beijing, and plan to head out to Chiba for the GP this year), I can work publicly on this forum without much worry that the local Chinese players will stumble across this forum, notice my plans, and get an edge on me.

OK, so first we need to identify what cards come out against each of the DTB, and I'm going to throw in a few decks that I know I will need to play against (since my meta is closed and well known to me).

Grixis Tempo: -Crop Rot -SnT(blasts) -Bojuka Bog
Miracles: -Crop Rot -SnT(blasts) -Bog -Chasm -Wail
Lands: -Chasm -Wail -Ugin
ANT: -Chasm -Trinket -Needle -E.E. -Repeal -Ugin
Eldrazi Stompy: -Wail -Repeal -Ugin
Infect: -SnT -Crop Rot
Shardless BUG -Chasm -Wail
BUG Delver Stifle: -Crop Rot -Trinket -Chasm
BUG Delver Hymn: -Crop Rot -Chasm
DnT: -Chasm
Sneaky Show: -Chasm -E.E. -Trinket
Food Chain: -Wail -Bog -Repeal

Once we know what should come out from a typical deck against all of these, we'll know how many live cards we want to bring in for the matchups, and we'll see whether it's feasible to meet the Storm menace with 10 cards. So, if you can think of any other cards typically run that should come out against each MU, or there's a card you take out for them that I missed, please let me know.

And yes, I do need a rock solid plan against Food Chain, one of the best players in the area has dedicated his life to that deck. He's ferocious with it.

I never board out SnT against the decks u mentioned... I board out SnT only if it can benefit my opponet in a way that i could lose (mirror, sneak, etc.) and even in these situations u can still win through it g1 with a bit of luck and good timing. In my opinion snt is one of our best cards. Its almost never dead, for example sometimes i play snt without a good target in hand to clear A counter for crop or another spell i need to resolve (they always counter it if they can and if they dont know what u're holding...). They can protect your hand against discard as they almost always take snt first (even if u dont have a target4it) leaving bs or sdt in your hand. Dont 4get the old snt-cloudpost (or a utility land) play, which is valid more often than i thought when i started playing. Sometimes snt-ing stuff that Doesnt work2well with it (like ulamog) can win u the game or stall long enough...

Ok enough of my snt propaganda :tongue:

[Lormador]

Actually I forgot to put that down coming out against Sneaky Show!

Against Grixis it may be right to keep it in, but here I think there's a subgame depending on whether they brought in blasts for me or not. Ideally I'd like to have Shows when they don't have any blasts, or not have Shows when they do have blasts.

With Miracles I like the idea of them having to bring in blasts while I have the luxury of not even needing the SnTs.

Against Infect I'm revising my ideas, they have only 1 Wasteland usually and the rest is taxing counters. Show and Tell should be resolvable. Chasm beats poison, doesn't it?

EDIT: The larger problem with the Leylines is probably the lack of cards getting pulled out in Shardless and Jund matchups. I just don't see much that is bad against them in my main deck, nor most main decks posted on the site. If that's the case, Leylines are a bust.

[cwcomposer]

Maindeck:

4 Primeval Titan
1 Oracle of Mul Daya

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger


2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pithing Needle
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
4 Warping Wail
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Candelabra of Tawnos


4 Cloudpost

4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva

1 Thespian's Stage

4 Forest
2 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboard:

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Rest In Peace
1 Trinisphere
1 Sphere of Resistance
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Moment's Peace
3 Leyline of Sanctity

What here would you cut for the (second) Candelabra that just arrived in my mailbox? ;)

I'm also considering trying out 2 Song of the Dryads and would love to hear people's thoughts on what to cut for them, as well.

EDITED TO ADD: My thought is to take out a Green Sun's Zenith for the second Candelabra. And if I add 2 Song of the Dryads, I remove the other two GSZ, and swap the Reclamation Sage in the sideboard with a third Krosan Grip.

[mykatdied]

What here would you cut for the (second) Candelabra that just arrived in my mailbox? ;)

I'm also considering trying out 2 Song of the Dryads and would love to hear people's thoughts on what to cut for them, as well.

I would either drop a top or the maze of ith. Personally I like having a Tabernacle mainboard and have the option to board into the maze in place of tabernacle.

[Mockingbird]

I would either drop a top or the maze of ith. Personally I like having a Tabernacle mainboard and have the option to board into the maze in place of tabernacle.

Candelabra plays great with Maze of Ith, I would advise keeping it for at least testing. You could do -1 Top or even -1 Needle. If Miracles is big in your area, you may want to do -1 Crop Rotation because Crop Rotation does not play well against Countermagic.

[TheBoozeCube]

I would either drop a top or the maze of ith. Personally I like having a Tabernacle mainboard and have the option to board into the maze in place of tabernacle.

I would cut Top. I've cut them all and hardly miss it. There's already so much card selection.


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[Lormador]

I think it's best to go to 3 Wails than cut Tops. Multiple copies are easy enough to shuffle back in, and few 1 drops are as good across every stage of the game. Also they are the first line of defense against discard. 3 Crop Rotation sounds fine too with how blue most metas are.

I think I'm going to stop referring to "the" meta. All are local.

[MechTactical]

So I've done a bit of testing with song. Like Rock said you can trap yourself very easily with cheeky plays, when you could just go for a proven line of play. One needs discipline playing this...:laugh:
I admit that the card is very good for fighting magus (probably the best MB solution we have??). I have to play it more to get a better feel for it. I'm wondering why we didn't run this b4? It was printed 2 years ago and the vesuva interaction was probably discovered earlier right?

I've cast the new mindrakul on xmage a couple of times now. Slaving your opponent is not as straight forward as one would think. i messed up slaving my opponent on all occasions (or at least it wasn't optimal). Despite my poor slaving i won every game i cast her. She prompted two forfeits g1. i think the opponents were trying to avoid giving up information prior to boarding... One obvious thing to note is that she can be countered and i didn't get the chance to attack with their creatures into her. Each time she resolved my opponent forfeited and each time i got to slave them she was countered. so i guess 13 / 13 flying, trample, protection from instants + mindslaver is just too much to handle? I usually cast her for 7. The key card being... guess what rock...? Show and tell was always the 4th card type (sorcery) in my graveyard.
Anyway Mindrakul is soooo much fun. Shuffling away all their good stuff, using their removal on their stuff, ... What can upset your opponent more? Hopefully no physical violence will ensue when I cast her on paper... :cool:

[maCHOOga]

What here would you cut for the (second) Candelabra that just arrived in my mailbox? ;)

I'm also considering trying out 2 Song of the Dryads and would love to hear people's thoughts on what to cut for them, as well.

EDITED TO ADD: My thought is to take out a Green Sun's Zenith for the second Candelabra. And if I add 2 Song of the Dryads, I remove the other two GSZ, and swap the Reclamation Sage in the sideboard with a third Krosan Grip.

I'm trying out 2x Song of the Dryads in my GW midrange build. I'm contemplating shaving down to 1 Ugin (yes I know how good it is), since Song and Ugin don't work too well together.

[Rock Lee]

I've cast the new mindrakul on xmage a couple of times now. Slaving your opponent is not as straight forward as one would think. i messed up slaving my opponent on all occasions (or at least it wasn't optimal). Despite my poor slaving i won every game i cast her. She prompted two forfeits g1. i think the opponents were trying to avoid giving up information prior to boarding... One obvious thing to note is that she can be countered and i didn't get the chance to attack with their creatures into her. Each time she resolved my opponent forfeited and each time i got to slave them she was countered. so i guess 13 / 13 flying, trample, protection from instants + mindslaver is just too much to handle? I usually cast her for 7. The key card being... guess what rock...? Show and tell was always the 4th card type (sorcery) in my graveyard.
Anyway Mindrakul is soooo much fun. Shuffling away all their good stuff, using their removal on their stuff, ... What can upset your opponent more? Hopefully no physical violence will ensue when I cast her on paper... :cool:

I've been testing what the best sorcery is for building up mindrakul. Probe, Show and Tell, and Ponder are the best options thus far.

In my testing I have also won every game I cast Mindrakul in. I might go to 2.

[TheBoozeCube]

I think it's best to go to 3 Wails than cut Tops. Multiple copies are easy enough to shuffle back in, and few 1 drops are as good across every stage of the game. Also they are the first line of defense against discard. 3 Crop Rotation sounds fine too with how blue most metas are.

I think I'm going to stop referring to "the" meta. All are local.

I disagree on playing anything less than 4x Wail unless you're running blue. Access to countermagic radically transforms our game 1 vs combo, which has always been a weak spot for the deck. And it easily and cheaply answers at least 75% of the creature threats that you are likely to see in almost any meta. Wail is one of the most versatile tools in our arsenal.


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[MGB]

Wow... I never thought I'd say this but Turbo Eldrazi with the new Emrakul is one of the first decks in Legacy to remind me of the classic "Control Slaver" archetype that was so much fun for a while in Vintage.

[MechTactical]

I've been testing what the best sorcery is for building up mindrakul. Probe, Show and Tell, and Ponder are the best options thus far.

In my testing I have also won every game I cast Mindrakul in. I might go to 2.

Dudzz i just killed one dude with his toxic deluge :eek:

P.s. he had 4 bridges i was contemplating ulamog - karakas and went 4 mindrakul instead... evil sh** he looked ripe 4 slaving

maybe even a FOW bulid??

[mykatdied]

Dudzz i just killed one dude with his toxic deluge :eek:

P.s. he had 4 bridges i was contemplating ulamog - karakas and went 4 mindrakul instead... evil sh** he looked ripe 4 slaving

maybe even a FOW bulid??

New emrakul vs decks with deluge. I love it.

[HomicidalRambo]

So been following this thread for a good year. Thought I would finally start jumping in. Please be nice to the new guy! Zot you may remember me from cockatrice same name there as screen name here. The oblivion sower eldrazi midrange build with posts I was the one online deck testing with great success on cockatrice but never took to tourny since think u/g better for bigger tournaments. Recently redid my deck. I have 2 candles MB and more old school run 4 repeals. Went 4-4 in Cbus Grand Prix...Good chance 5-3 but blew last game on purpose since no chance day 2 and wanted to jet after 11 hours. 6 combo decks and no miracles...sometimes you roll 20's and sometimes you don't. I'm not a great player but not awful and played legacy for years.

I too have not lost with mindrakaul when casted. People are not giving him enough credit. Looking to take place of kozilek. Not huge fan of him overall. Think it will help our deck greatly. Recently redid deck...dropped all my needles and exp maps. Trying something different. Maps are soooo slow. Bumped to 4 crops...yes can be countered but when land wasted I cast crop and they force it etc. Its almost always done since they know how bad things can get. Also, tells me if they have a counter. It's a huge gain still 2 cards to get my land...if know how to play them around counters soooo powerful. Upped to 28-29 lands and tabernacle MB. With higher lands and 4 crops wasteland isn't a big deal. Plus more lands to counter wastes and lead them. For Loam style decks 4 surgical in SB etc. Deck has hummed way better imo and have played post around a year now. Only 3-4 weeks with new change though. New anti discard land I'll prob run SB. Tabby is a great answer to 18 land delver decks and many other aggro decks and loved the chg to MB...even if wasted a turn or 2 later that should be game for our deck by slower them a few turns to build up. I SB it in over 75% of time so feel it was needed MB. Eye of ugin turn 1 mimics love the land as well as tapping double lands for 1 dude to save. I like MB with aggro decks flying high. Tabby on board with casting mindrakaul is very nice too. I run repeal over wails. Wails have been so lack luster for me. Mono green or G/w it's a def imo. Running blue I feel better answers and SB. 2 mana is too slow for storm at least way ppl draw against me lol. And creatures I get it but repeal does just as good and bounces many other things and draws me deeper in deck. Also plays ridiculous tricks with SDT and candles. That's my 2 cents. Appreciate the thread btw. Everyone on here has great ideas and comments. Has helped me immensely. Love the song of dryad roc. Played the damn card in EDH last 2 years and never thought of that combo! I see a few in next SB. By far funniest legacy deck I've ever played and if the driver understands the deck it's quite powerful.

[Lormador]

Trying to make a sideboard. This is my best effort so far

1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Elephant Grass
1 Moment's Peace
3 Swan Song
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Krosan Grip
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

Looks weird, I know, but the idea is to get 60 useful cards against all DTB, let the Storm matchup slide to some extent, and crucially buy that slot for Llawan because she is the stone cold nuts against Food Chain. My local Food Chain player actually is that good, but I doubt any amount of skill on his part will beat Cavern on Cephalid into the Empress.

[TheCorgiKing]

Hello Everyone, I've also been following this thread for awhile and thought it was finally time to comment. Traditionally I played Mono Black PrisonPox but a few months ago I decided to switch things up as we've now got 3 or 4 other Pox players in my area. It has been super helpful reading about what everyone's doing and their thoughts on certain cards. I have been building and playing around with 12post for about a year now and have read every page of this forum from the beginning (some pages more than once).

Originally when I first started out, I tested and played Mono G 12post with the full "post" package and then moved on to Gw with Thalia, Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist in the sideboard. I wasn't too thrilled with either, so I started putting together UG and I think it's probably tied for my favorite deck to pilot (though I am messing around with a Gr version that runs New Emrakul and Stranglehold).

The list I'm running is mostly a product of my lack of funds and local (almost non-existent) Legacy meta so I have a few cards in smaller numbers or missing entirely that may throw some people off, but rather than just cookiecut from Rock Lee or Zotmaster or any of the rest of you, I wanted to make the deck more my own and would really appreciate some constructive criticism/or your thoughts:

Lands:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Seat of the Synod
2 Forest
2 Island

Creatures:
1 Emrakaul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Trinket Mage
1 World Breaker
4 Primeval Titan

Artifacts:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Expedition Maps (considering cutting to 1)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Mox Diamond
1 Candelabra of Tawnos (really wanted 2...)

Spells:
3 Show and Tell (considering cutting to 2)
2 Repeal
4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Krosan Grip
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Warping Wail
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 All is Dust

So the first things people may notice are:

-No mainboard Warping Wail and only one in the SB: I just really don't like this card, I know that's like.. a cardinal sin again the structure of the deck for most of you, but it's a personal preference. I've never lost a game and thought "Man, if only I could've resolved that Warping Wail"

-I only run 2 Tropical Islands and a whopping 4 basics (as well as Seat of the Synod): Land hate is a real thing where I'm at, Wasteland and Ghost Quarter are rampant, I like to not have my colors screwed up when I want to cast since I have so many color-dependent spells. Seat of the Synod is a recent inclusion as tutorable U source if I'm desperate. Veteran Explorer is also a thing in my area, so the basics are nice

-Only 1 Candelabra. I really wanted this to be 2, but with the spike, it's out of my range for what I can afford...

-2 Spatial Contortion in the sideboard: This is kind of a pet card but it acts as either EoT removal, spot removal against Burn/Delvers or to make something too fat to go under my bridge if the deck decides to durdle

A few notes:

-Vesuva is occasionally a 1-of with a Thespian's Stage

-I have been considering dropping 1x Show and Tell and 1x Expedition Map to mainboard 2 Warping Wail, I don't like WW, but it's always possible I just haven't played enough games with it. Besides, 3 Show and Tell is excessive

-I would like to mainboard good ol' Shoalzaliek, there's just so much value in replenishing your hand, but at the moment, I think World Breaker is a stud and it's hard to make the switch

-I have a lot of trouble against Lands and Miracles, I know those are supposed to be easier match ups, but these usually end up as 1-2 at the end of the night

Thanks again everyone, looking forward to what the new set brings to the deck

[cwcomposer]

...rather than just cookiecut from Rock Lee or Zotmaster or any of the rest of you, I wanted to make the deck more my own...

The ability to do this is one of the most exciting things I've discovered about this deck.

[cwcomposer]

Only 1 Candelabra. I really wanted this to be 2, but with the spike, it's out of my range for what I can afford...
[...]
I have a lot of trouble against Lands and Miracles, I know those are supposed to be easier match ups, but these usually end up as 1-2 at the end of the night

I'm still not sold that the price spike is real. TCG mid is at $675, which is where MTGStocks gets their info. But TCG market price (the new gold standard, as far as I'm concerned, for rare cards such as this) is still at $389. Furthermore, there are a lot for sale in a few Facebook groups for mid $300s or lower.

As for beating Lands, it often comes down to Pithing Needle for me. If I can name Wasteland or Rishadan Port (whichever I fear most at the moment), I can usually start to get my game plan in motion.

Other all-stars in the matchup for me have been Bojuka Bog (in the maindeck) once the first Life from the Loam hits their 'yard, and Rest in Peace (from the sideboard).

Surgical Extraction has a lot of great targets. Extract their Life from the Loam and it's pretty much game over for their "engine." Hit their Dark Depths and it's game over for their only (scary) win condition. I've even used it to bait out Wasteland. You should've seen the look on my opponent's face when: [me: turn one] Cloudpost, [him: turn one] Wasteland my Cloudpost, [me: end of his turn one] Surgical Extraction his Wasteland.

Your Thespian's Stage is a great safety net against his Marit Lage combo; just copy his Dark Depths in response to him copying it.

Maze of Ith and Karakas will hold off Marit Lage forever. Vesuva can copy Maze of Ith or Karakas if yours keep getting Ported. The only games I've lost to Lands are the ones where they go straight for the Marit Lage combo as early as possible and I'm not yet set up to deal with it.

[Lormador]

Well, I'll put in some suggestions, but take them with a grain of salt because I think you're more experienced with the deck than I am. I'm Internet you have, after all, even if I'm not the one you want.

My first impression is that there is a lot of graveyard hate in that deck. Two different tutorable MD answers and 4 dedicated sideboard cards may be more than needed.

This segues into my second idea, which is that the MD itself has less library manipulation and card drawing than it's possible to run, even cutting the mighty SDT down to 2 and Expedition Maps to 2 or 1. Repeal numbers are low too, which matches the low SDT count since you won't have the Spin/Draw/Repeal play very much. That's such a sweet play that I hate to lose it. Miracles has to run Predict to get this effect.

I do not understand the reasoning behind Seat of the Synod because there are no UU spells in the deck, nor GU or any combination where the Seat could make the difference. And if Trinket Mage is getting me nothing better than a land drop, I wonder whether I've cut too deeply into the library manipulation numbers.

I also do not understand this win condition configuration. Ulamog, World Breaker, and Ugin all answer problematic permanents or eliminate enemy threats in such a way as to at least stabilize the board position. They all have this same similar effect, and they're all awful Showed in against combo (at best, this is not even possible with Ugin). The Great Distortion, on the other hand, does something different. Showing this guy against a combo deck could really wipe them out, since they're forced to immediately go for it in the face of his counter ability. Against a fair deck, the D7 isn't so bad, especially at his relatively aggressive cost. Only if I'm behind against a board, on my last few life points, is this not going to get there.

So to present some concrete ideas, I propose:
-1 Seat of the Synod
-1 World Breaker (keep in mind you now you might want more Krosan Grip in the board to make up for the capability)
-2 Ensnaring Bridge (move to the board, maybe combine with Elephant Grass)
-1 Relic of Progenitus (move to the board if you want that much GY hate)
-1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
+2 Sensei's Divining Top
+2 Repeal

In the SB:
-2 Faerie Macabre
+1 Relic of Progenitus (from the MD)
-1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion (who now lives in the MD)

...putting you up 2 slots in the sideboard.

As for the sideboard generally, now that I'm more at leisure I'm pleased to post my rough ideas. If any of this flies in the face of reality, please let me know.

Grixis Tempo: 4 slots, Crop Rotations and Boguja Bog
In: +1 Ensnaring Bridge, +2 Elephant Grass, +1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Miracles: 8 slots, -3 Crop Rotation, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Glacial Chasm, -3 Warping Wail
In: +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Krosan Grip, +1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, +3 Swan Song

Lands: 5 slots, -1 Glacial Chasm, -3 Warping Wail, -1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
In: +2 Surgical Extraction, +2 K-Grip, +1 Ensnaring Bridge

Storm: 7 slots, -1 Chasm -3 Needle -1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, -2 Trinket Mage
In: +2 Surgical Extraction, +2 Flusterstorm, +3 Swan Song

Infect: 3 slots: -3 Crop Rotation
In: +1 Moment's Peace, +2 Elephant Grass

Shardless: 4 slots: -3 Warping Wail -1 Glacial Chasm
In: +1 Ensnaring Bridge, +2 Elephant Grass, +1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

BUG Delver w/ Stifle: 6 slots: -3 Crop Rotation -2 Trinket Mage -1 Glacial Charm
In: +2 Elephant Grass +1 Ensnaring Bridge +1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale +2 Flusterstorm

BUG Delver w/ Hymn: 4 slots: -3 Crop Rotation -1 Glacial Chasm
In: +2 Elephant Grass +1 Ensnaring Bridge +1 Tabernacle

...others maybe I'll put in later.

[Ponders]

I've been testing, mostly game 1 in a monogreen build over the last 2-3 months. I think that, I can come out on the side of Sensei's top being a critical card. Without it, you're too often just waiting and a slave to top decks. Ancient stirrings is nice, but I think instant speed is better. This helps for matchups vs black when you're discarding half of your hand in the first 2-3 turns.

The next problem is troublesome permanents moon, chalice, chalice + moon etc. Song of the dryad would be the new hotness, but repeal always played this role previously and while many builds have moved away from it, I think that is probably not good. Whatever your color bent, cheaper faster solutions maindeck helps.

I've been playing without warping wail. With top going in, I'll look again at including it and see how these changes allow some modifications against combo.

A question I have now is, does the new graveyard mechanic and emergence open any space to yet consider using a different or maybe parallel colorless ramp strategy? Something like Zot was trying with oblivion sower, or maybe spawn driven? Is there room for thoughtknot?

Good luck out there.