[Deck] 12 Post

[TheCorgiKing]

Well, I'll put in some suggestions, but take them with a grain of salt because I think you're more experienced with the deck than I am. I'm Internet you have, after all, even if I'm not the one you want.

...MD itself has less library manipulation and card drawing than it's possible to run, even cutting the mighty SDT down to 2 and Expedition Maps to 2 or 1. Repeal numbers are low too, which matches the low SDT count since you won't have the Spin/Draw/Repeal play very much. That's such a sweet play that I hate to lose it...



Thanks for the suggestions! I ended up making a few edits to the list and it's running a little smoother now, I'll hopefully get to put it to the test this week

-1 Expedition Map
-1 Show and Tell
-1 Relic of Progenitus
-1 Seat of the Synod
-1 World Breaker to SB

+2 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 Repeal
+1 Forest (don't currently have a 3rd Tropical Island)
+1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion from SB

I don't have a Tabernacle, it's on the short list of cards I'd like to acquire, but unfortunately that short list is still a couple thousand dollars

I've found most people aren't interested in trading their Tabernacles if Power isn't involved and I sold the pieces of power I had a few years ago when I graduated college and needed to relocate for work... it was a good idea at the time

[Lormador]

Yeah, I think the Tabernacle problem is that most players who have one also already have everything else in Legacy, such that even a playset of NM Revised Underground Seas offered in trade wouldn't tempt them at all. I despaired of ever acquiring one myself, but after making a spreadsheet of all the Modern chaff and scruffy castoff chunks of unplayed decks in my collection, I found that the value added up really quickly and I did manage to trade a binder of stuff (including the binder itself, lol) to a shop for a Tabernacle. A store would be thrilled to make a deal like that, but no player would dream of touching it.

Careful you don't get choked on green mana. I run one basic Forest for 3 basics total, and I think about cutting it all the time due to the mana problems it occasionally causes, which may be worse than the Wasteland problems that it solves. Folks so rarely aim their land hate at my colored sources anyway, and they often get punished for it when they do because I very often sandbag a colored source. Even when I'd love to play out that colored source, playing colorless Cloudposts, Vesuvas, and Glimmerposts is so important that I rarely have a land drop to spend on a luxurious second colored source. Running colorless mana is really taxing, even moreso than running a 3 color deck because there is no overlap. I might even run 4 Tropical Island and 1 Breeding Pool in the deck, as I think the Pool might actually not be that bad here.

The question to my mind is whether we still want old Emrakul once the new one comes out. If it's true that games are universally, or near-universally, won when she is cast... a much cheaper, reliable win condition would speed our deck up considerably and be pretty big game, I think.

[Rock Lee]

The list I'm running is mostly a product of my lack of funds and local (almost non-existent) Legacy meta so I have a few cards in smaller numbers or missing entirely that may throw some people off, but rather than just cookiecut from Rock Lee or Zotmaster or any of the rest of you, I wanted to make the deck more my own and would really appreciate some constructive criticism/or your thoughts:

Lands:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Seat of the Synod
2 Forest
2 Island

Creatures:
1 Emrakaul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Trinket Mage
1 World Breaker
4 Primeval Titan

Artifacts:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Expedition Maps (considering cutting to 1)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Mox Diamond
1 Candelabra of Tawnos (really wanted 2...)

Spells:
3 Show and Tell (considering cutting to 2)
2 Repeal
4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Krosan Grip
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Warping Wail
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 All is Dust

So the first things people may notice are:

-No mainboard Warping Wail and only one in the SB: I just really don't like this card, I know that's like.. a cardinal sin again the structure of the deck for most of you, but it's a personal preference. I've never lost a game and thought "Man, if only I could've resolved that Warping Wail"

-I only run 2 Tropical Islands and a whopping 4 basics (as well as Seat of the Synod): Land hate is a real thing where I'm at, Wasteland and Ghost Quarter are rampant, I like to not have my colors screwed up when I want to cast since I have so many color-dependent spells. Seat of the Synod is a recent inclusion as tutorable U source if I'm desperate. Veteran Explorer is also a thing in my area, so the basics are nice

-Only 1 Candelabra. I really wanted this to be 2, but with the spike, it's out of my range for what I can afford...

-2 Spatial Contortion in the sideboard: This is kind of a pet card but it acts as either EoT removal, spot removal against Burn/Delvers or to make something too fat to go under my bridge if the deck decides to durdle

A few notes:

-Vesuva is occasionally a 1-of with a Thespian's Stage

-I have been considering dropping 1x Show and Tell and 1x Expedition Map to mainboard 2 Warping Wail, I don't like WW, but it's always possible I just haven't played enough games with it. Besides, 3 Show and Tell is excessive

-I would like to mainboard good ol' Shoalzaliek, there's just so much value in replenishing your hand, but at the moment, I think World Breaker is a stud and it's hard to make the switch

-I have a lot of trouble against Lands and Miracles, I know those are supposed to be easier match ups, but these usually end up as 1-2 at the end of the night

Thanks again everyone, looking forward to what the new set brings to the deck

Warping Wail is a meta call card. Mostly for dealing with Grixis, Elves, and sneaky show. If you never see those three archetypes, then no reason to feel bad for cutting warping wail.

Best cards to beat Lands are needle and show and tell, as you well know. But also timing on when to bog them is clutch. If you run repeal as well, the matchup should be verging on a bye.

Nothing wrong with 4 basics. I've run upto 5 in the past in U/G builds. I would suggest running a 4th crop rotation, since with so many basics, mana fixing can get odd.

Especially with Trinket mage, 1 candelabra is plenty. You could also run Artificer's Intuition if you really want it more often and drop the trinket mages for more artifacts in general. Artificer's Intuition also facilitates Emrakul 2.

For lands and Miracles here's my play advice:

Lands - Just focus on getting basics and timing an appropriate bog to sweep their leg. Even if they save their loam with a thicket, you have near-infinite time against them if you play save with mana. Remember vesuva'd basics aren't waste-able. You can undo rishadan port's with candelabra, and they have near-no answer to repeal on their 20/20.

Miracles - This matchup is not as simple as many people (myself included in the past) imply. The huge focus is on landing an expedition map or Top before counterbalance hits, then get a titan and cavern it into play. Cavern is everything in this matchup unless you are simply drawing a ton of mana and have eldrazis. Also key to remember is that there are two different versions of Miracles Legendary Miracles, which runs low Mentors main/sb with venser/clique and low snapcasters, which can deal with cavern via venser, but is a slower build. And the Mentor build, which has 4 mentors in the 75, many main, relies on snapcasters, and is the more dangerous build of the two.

[Rock Lee]

A question I have now is, does the new graveyard mechanic and emergence open any space to yet consider using a different or maybe parallel colorless ramp strategy? Something like Zot was trying with oblivion sower, or maybe spawn driven? Is there room for thoughtknot?

Good luck out there.

What is the new graveyard mechanic?

[Ponders]

What is the new graveyard mechanic?

I conflated emrakuls graveyard cast reduction with emergence inadvertently.

[Rock Lee]

I conflated emrakuls graveyard cast reduction with emergence inadvertently.

ah. well to answer the question. I think courser will go up in price, even if only slightly. I think Grapple with the Past is a huge card now, for both U/g and mono green. Grapple + Trinket Mage is essentially an on-sligh grind deck.

I tested probe out for added sorceries, and it was tragically weak. I'm still seeking out other sorceries that aren't show and tell, but are low enough mana to merit running. Stirrings was always "ok" at this, but it still falters in getting titan/show combo.

[Lormador]

I tested Probe too, in fact I believe that deck of yours was my starting point Rock. I don't think they were too terrible given that the blue count was raised high enough to support Force of Will out of the sideboard. I did cut them eventually, and I cut those Forces for more powerful counterspells that cost mana, partly because my meta doesn't need me to run such general cards. I can predict it accurately enough to use more focused cards, there just aren't that many players in Beijing. Those that are here often are on 1-2 decks all the time.

I think running really any sorceries that cost colored mana comes at a pretty high cost, that being the necessity to play out a second colored source if I want to keep Crop Rotation mana open at all times (or if I want to just use Crop Rotation so as to cast an Eldrazi on my next turn). Generally my plan with this deck is to use one Tropical Island for my reactive stuff, using the colorless mana to Top or crack Maps until I have enough juice to start laying the I Win cards.

I'm sure Rock and friends have like 80 different ways to win that can involve all sorts of land configurations, but for my simple and noobish stylings this basic plan works pretty well.

[MechTactical]

ah. well to answer the question. I think courser will go up in price, even if only slightly. I think Grapple with the Past is a huge card now, for both U/g and mono green. Grapple + Trinket Mage is essentially an on-sligh grind deck.

I tested probe out for added sorceries, and it was tragically weak. I'm still seeking out other sorceries that aren't show and tell, but are low enough mana to merit running. Stirrings was always "ok" at this, but it still falters in getting titan/show combo.

i'm testing with ponder.



The question to my mind is whether we still want old Emrakul once the new one comes out. If it's true that games are universally, or near-universally, won when she is cast... a much cheaper, reliable win condition would speed our deck up considerably and be pretty big game, I think.

Mindrakul cannot replace emrakul (uncounterable time walk with anihilator 6)... and i've run into situations where she wasn't too helpful. When you cannot influence the opponent's overwhelming board state and you lose in their next turn. happened to me against goblins for example.

[Leshrac82]

I tested New Emrakul in my build too, just in exchange for Ugin, without any other canges to make it cheaper.

I'm far less enthusiastic: I didn't lose a game where i cast New Emrakul either, but that's not the way to look at it. While testing it, i cast it just ~5 times, i cast Ulamog and Old Emrakul a lot more often - and just one time i cast it, i actually needed this effect to win, all the other times it didn't matter which Eldrazi i would cast. And these usually win the game too (in this timeframe i lost just once after casting Ulamog, and in that situation it was still the better play than new Emrakul).
I never searched up New Emrakul as my first option, that was always one of the other two, sometimes it didn't really matter, but sometimes a different Eldrazi was clearly the better option. There are a lot of situations where New Emrakul just wouldn't do enough.

The card is powerful because it attacks on a different angle than the other payoffs and could win in situations where nothing else can, but situations where it doesn't win while another Eldrazi does are more common. So i'm pretty sure the question won't be if New Emrakul can replace Ulamog or Old Emrakul, both cards are more important. The question will be if you should run it alongside these two, and maybe replace Ugin or Kozilek or whatever else you are running as additional payoffs.

[Ecstatic_Conch]

I haven't tried Song of the Dryads yet but I have to admit it sounds pretty good to have decent removal in U/G. Has anybody given any thought to the new Imprisoned in the Moon card from Eldritch moon as a replacement for it since it is blue to pitch to force of will? I suppose there are a few enchantment and artifacts it doesn't help us deal with but we do have krosan grip out of the sideboard, counterspells, and repeal for that.

With the new emrakul has anybody tried playing Lignify as a creature removal spell? It costs one less than Song of the Dryads and Imprisoned in the Moon, which could be quite relevant. Being able to cast it on turn 3 with mana up to pay for daze would be huge against delver or infect decks. RUG delver, infect and moggcatcher are the toughest matchups for me in my meta, so having a removal spell they can't interact with easily would do wonders. Repeal only goes so far since they can just recast their threat. Since Lignify is tribal that would also reduce the cost of the new emrakul by 2 if it gets countered or destroyed. However, on the flipside it makes tarmogoyf bigger (likely by 2 power). I have been using relic of progenitus against goyf though and it's been pretty effective.

[MechTactical]

I started to tackle with a monoG "lands" build (maybe GW for knight and SB options or splash another color?? - don’t know yet): tracker + exploration + loam + grapple + mindrakul. Loam powers up mindrakul very quickly. Grapple makes loam feasible because we can consistently fetch our creatures from the graveyard without including complicated mechanics. World breaker is also very nice as he can just fetch himself out of the graveyard. And of course tracker is a huge HUGE card advantage engine. Combined with exploration + loam he's online very fast!
Any thoughts?

[mykatdied]

I started to tackle with a monoG "lands" build (maybe GW for knight and SB options or splash another color?? - don’t know yet): tracker + exploration + loam + grapple + mindrakul. Loam powers up mindrakul very quickly. Grapple makes loam feasible because we can consistently fetch our creatures from the graveyard without including complicated mechanics. World breaker is also very nice as he can just fetch himself out of the graveyard. And of course tracker is a huge HUGE card advantage engine and with exploration + loam he's online fast!
Any thoughts?

I think this deck struggles worse against combo than any other variant, but it likely fine in the fair match up. Would it make sense to also run splendid reclamation and perhaps courser of Kruphix to get even more value out of land drops and help you decide on whether or not to dredge a loam pending your top deck? Maybe the ladder point is less relevant since you're likely running top

[Leshrac82]

I started to tackle with a monoG "lands" build (maybe GW for knight and SB options or splash another color?? - don’t know yet): tracker + exploration + loam + grapple + mindrakul. Loam powers up mindrakul very quickly. Grapple makes loam feasible because we can consistently fetch our creatures from the graveyard without including complicated mechanics. World breaker is also very nice as he can just fetch himself out of the graveyard. And of course tracker is a huge HUGE card advantage engine. Combined with exploration + loam he's online very fast!
Any thoughts?

That looks in some ways similar to my build, with even more focus on the graveyard. What i learned while building my deck:
1. You need a way to beat combo. Warping Wail and Crop Rotation can stop them for a while, but not always long enough for your engine to really start running, especially when you can't really tap out during your turn. That's why i play Dark Depths and use that as my main win condition against combo. That should work for you too, it needs early acceleration to be really good, Exploration should do the job. Especially if you include Knight, i would always play Depths, but probably even without it. (In some way i compare Dark Depths in the Gx lists to Show&Tell in the UG lists, both have the similar purpose to be a faster win condition when you really need one.)
2. You also need a way to stabilize fast enough against Delver or similar decks, the engine alone isn't fast enough usually. With Loam and without any splash i think Moment's Peace might be the best choice for you.

Other thoughts on splashs:
Red could probably work as a splash with Loam. Punishing Fire is an option, and Kozileks Return too. That should stop most aggressive decks.

[Ricardio]

Other thoughts on splashs:
Red could probably work as a splash with Loam. Punishing Fire is an option, and Kozileks Return too. That should stop most aggressive decks.

I think koz return is too slow and the pfire engine convolutes the waters of our deck too much. I think speed is key. I have been looking into GR Post with 3 sneak mb and 3-4 pyroblast sb and it feels very strong. Amulet of vigor is something I would like to give a shot here soon but in the meantime, with all the chalice decks on mtgo (where I play this deck) I want a mb answer other than ulamog so I may go towards adding a World breaker or find room for rec sage mb.

[Leshrac82]

I think koz return is too slow and the pfire engine convolutes the waters of our deck too much. I think speed is key. I have been looking into GR Post with 3 sneak mb and 3-4 pyroblast sb and it feels very strong. Amulet of vigor is something I would like to give a shot here soon but in the meantime, with all the chalice decks on mtgo (where I play this deck) I want a mb answer other than ulamog so I may go towards adding a World breaker or find room for rec sage mb.

I never tried PFire, and wasn't happy with a red splash for Kozileks Return in my deck, so maybe you are right. But it might work better in a Loam engine.

Rec Sage maindeck (if you play GSZ) could become necessary if more Miracles decks play Blood Moon or Back to Basics in the maindeck, i don't think i want it just against Chalice. World Breaker is imo too slow as an answer - from my limited testing with that card it seemed like i always had the mana to go for Ulamog when i had the mana for World Breaker. It might be good in a deck with Grapple and/or Loam, just because it can return itself from the graveyard, but i don't think it's really good enough otherwise.
With my deck i'm very happy with Engineered Explosives in the maindeck, but i'm playing 3 colors and have Mox Diamonds. Still, for me that card is the best answer to many different problems, and if it wasn't bad against some common sideboard hate (Needle, Null Rod) i would probably play even more in the board.

[MechTactical]

@ mykatdied Good point. That’s why I was thinking of dedicating the entire board to the combo match-ups or just splash blue for counter magic? Actually this is the first time I’m considering cutting top completely and rely solely on the tracker / loam engine to get the cards I need. Kruphix may not be a bad idea since it can be fetched with grapple and does give a nice bonus. I’ve tried Splendid but I think it isn’t worth the slot here because loam and grapple fetch lands from the GY. Maybe it would be nice to run reclamation sage main and free up additional space in the board for combo hate or just go crazy with world breaker?

@ Leshrac82 I know, I saw the potential of tracker when you beat the living sh** out of me on xmage :laugh: Agreed on MP since it works well with loam and is probably needed against the eldrazizs. I thought about depths combo maybe it should be in there?

I wanted to build around loam for some time now. Maybe grapple makes it possible for us to actually run it?

Here’s a very VERY rough draft:

4 Windswept Heath
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Wasteland
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Maze of Ith
7 Forest
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Vesuva
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
4 Glimmerpost

3 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
4 Crop Rotation
4 Life from the Loam
4 Grapple with the Past
4 Tireless Tracker
3 Primeval Titan
1 World Breaker
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Surgical Extraction
4 Warping Wail
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Krosan Grip

P.s. I just wasted a delver (with good draws).

[maCHOOga]

I've been contemplating brewing a GB version of the deck. Honestly grisly salvage + grapple + splendid reclaimation/loam.
Next I'll want to play Das Gitrog Monster! Maybe I'm just trapped in magical Christmasland.

Honestly though, black gives you access to thoughtseize / duress / therapy; which is another angle to attack combo decks, sans reanimator.

[Leshrac82]

I've been contemplating brewing a GB version of the deck. Honestly grisly salvage + grapple + splendid reclaimation/loam.
Next I'll want to play Das Gitrog Monster! Maybe I'm just trapped in magical Christmasland.

Honestly though, black gives you access to thoughtseize / duress / therapy; which is another angle to attack combo decks, sans reanimator.

Hey, Gitrog Monster isn't that bad - it's the reason my deck exists! :wink:
But honestly, it's probably the worst card in the deck - it's amazing when i play it and has won some games, but maybe a different card would do more in the many games where i just didn't use it. I'm trying a version without it, to see if i miss it at any point, even if it hurts to cut the card from the deck that was the reason to build it in the first place.

The discard is tricky. My black splash is too light to play it, but even with a bigger splash that could be problematic. You want to be able to play these cards consistently on turn 1, and that might be difficult to do.


@ Leshrac82 I know, I saw the potential of tracker when you beat the living sh** out of me on xmage :laugh: Agreed on MP since it works well with loam and is probably needed against the eldrazizs. I thought about depths combo maybe it should be in there?

Tracker has a lot of potential, and imo it could work in many different 12post builds (and it already works in other decks - Maverick, NicFit and Lands all play it, and they usually dont even have that much mana to crack clues).
I don't really know why other mono-green 12post builds don't want the depths combo any more. UG doesn't need it, Show&Tell does the same job. In RG you could maybe play SneakAttack, but everything else doesn't have an "i win"-button against decks that just usually beat us before we can ramp into Eldrazi.

After seeing your list i'm sure you want Depths, you even play Mox Diamonds too - that can speed up the combo, and is otherwise a good way to get rid of Depths when you don't want it. With the right draw you could kill on Turn 3, and you will have draws that can kill on Turn 4 relatively often. That's just great against decks that can't interact with that. Just use it carefully against decks that can answer it.

[TLK]

Leshrac82, I tried the list you sent me at my local weekly Legacy tournament last week, and didn't do so hot. I think it was a mixture of bad matchups and it being my first time piloting the deck.

Round 1 - Lost 0-2 to Esper Deathblade. True-Name + equipment proved to be an issue, as was Jace. He must've Brainstormed like 15 times in game 1.

Round 2 - Lost 0-2 to Enchantress. We don't have many ways to interact with them - or at least that's how it seemed. He basically drew his entire deck game 1 and found the Helm/RiP combo kill the turn before I was going to land Ugin to wipe his board.

Round 3 - Lost 0-2 to D&T. Like you said in our PMs back and forth, this can be a tough matchup when they draw the nuts, which he did. Twice.

Gitrog Monster seems bad when we're struggling to keep lands in play against decks like D&T. Veteran Explorer also didn't seem to do much.

[Leshrac82]

Leshrac82, I tried the list you sent me at my local weekly Legacy tournament last week, and didn't do so hot. I think it was a mixture of bad matchups and it being my first time piloting the deck.

Round 1 - Lost 0-2 to Esper Deathblade. True-Name + equipment proved to be an issue, as was Jace. He must've Brainstormed like 15 times in game 1.

Round 2 - Lost 0-2 to Enchantress. We don't have many ways to interact with them - or at least that's how it seemed. He basically drew his entire deck game 1 and found the Helm/RiP combo kill the turn before I was going to land Ugin to wipe his board.

Round 3 - Lost 0-2 to D&T. Like you said in our PMs back and forth, this can be a tough matchup when they draw the nuts, which he did. Twice.

Gitrog Monster seems bad when we're struggling to keep lands in play against decks like D&T. Veteran Explorer also didn't seem to do much.

Sad to hear that.

Esper Blade should be an ok matchup (i'm 4-2 against them, so not that much data). It's hard to defend against TNN (Glacial Chasm or Ugin are the only things that really work preboard), but usually they shouldn't be that fast.
Enchantress i played just twice (1-1), it seemed to be a very bad matchup and i got lucky to win it once, but i can't say much about it.
D&T i gave you my advice via PM. It's not as good as i thought at first, when i was 12-0 after 12 matches, but it should still be a good matchup overall (23-7 for me on xmage now, and 4 of those losses with a very bad sideboard strategy).

Gitrog Monster is not good against D&T for many reasons, just Karakas alone makes it bad. It only really shines in very grindy games, that's why i think about cutting it (another Tracker should work much more often and has a similar role).
For Veteran Explorer that were not the right matchups. Both D&T and Esper Blade have StP to get rid of it, that makes it not very effective. Against Enchantress it's completely useless. It's great against Eldrazi, it's good against Delver and generally against any deck that attacks on the ground and doesn't play white.

[Ponders]

Song of the Dryads is ok, but against Abrupt Decay its going to let you down time and again. I advise find something else, the card is just too pervasive. Beast Within also costs 3, works at instant speed and has the same chance of getting countered. Good against moon/magus/chalice. If against control switch out for krosan grip.

[Ponders]

ah. well to answer the question. I think courser will go up in price, even if only slightly. I think Grapple with the Past is a huge card now, for both U/g and mono green. Grapple + Trinket Mage is essentially an on-sligh grind deck.

I tested probe out for added sorceries, and it was tragically weak. I'm still seeking out other sorceries that aren't show and tell, but are low enough mana to merit running. Stirrings was always "ok" at this, but it still falters in getting titan/show combo.

Sorcery speed removal? Also, I thought someone had mentioned a cmc 4 artifact with some kind of removal but looked back and couldn't find it. Not the disc.

[mykatdied]

@Ponders - With regards to previous discussion, if you were going to try running Scapeshift then it is likely sweet alongside Splendid Reclamation. Especially if you have the mana to cast both in the same turn. You could potentially get a long of land out of your deck to increase your chances of top decking action. Not too mention you are basically guaranteed the mana to tutor with eye of ugin and get emrakul the following turn.

[Ponders]

@Ponders - With regards to previous discussion, if you were going to try running Scapeshift then it is likely sweet alongside Splendid Reclamation. Especially if you have the mana to cast both in the same turn. You could potentially get a long of land out of your deck to increase your chances of top decking action. Not too mention you are basically guaranteed the mana to tutor with eye of ugin and get emrakul the following turn.


I still like the idea but getting blown up by T2 hymn, t3 wasteland, t4 hymn again. Here's an abrupt decay for that needle/o-stone/candle/map. Thinking on it, though I've rarely shifted for anything other than 3-4 posts. Usually game over next turn.

[TheCorgiKing]

Just thought I'd give everyone an update, I played in my local monthly and got 5/19 which was satisfactory as I haven't been able to test the deck as much as I'd like

First match was 2-0 vs Slivers. T3 Show and Tell Primeval Titan and T4 Emrakul with Karakas for game. Similar situation for game 2, he tried to hide under a Bridge but I got the boardwipe with Ugin and generated around 30 mana off the Candelabra to bounce Ulamog and recast

Game 2: 2-0 vs Eldrazi Stompy. Very similar to the first match, SnT has remained a consistent rockstar even after going down to 2 mainboard

Game 3: 0-2 vs Infect. Deck durdled first game, game 2 he became immense and dropped Berserk to hit me for like 16 infect after Wastelanding my Glacial Chasm

Game 4: 2-0 vs Thopter Sword. I got Emrakul, Shoalzaliek and Ulamog out both games with Karakas and Candelabra, he insisted on playing through the Emrakul lock both games.

Game 5: 1-2 vs Burn. It's burn, I'm about 30-60 against it, Eidolon hurts.

I'm definitely going to be adding Moment's Peace to the 75; do you guys prefer it MB or is it pretty much exclusively SB?

I've also got a Gr list that's almost finished up, in early testing it's just okay, but it could be fun to mess around with. I'm not sold on Punishing Fire/Grove, but I like the interaction, I am leaning away from the combo in the board though

[MechTactical]

@ Leshrac82 Well this is not an actual list. I just want to test the engine (4x loam/exploration, tracker, grapple), everything else I just threw in there without too much thought at this point. I’m certain the list requires another color...
@ maCHOOga I’m having reservations regarding discard as it doesn’t run well with loam? Maybe as a SB option, but then again you could just splash blue for counters? The suggested grisly salvage looks like it could be very good in a loam build (didn’t know that card existed!).
@ Ponders I think it was perilous vault. Agreed on Song, except if you want to capitalize on song – vesuva combo.
@ TheCorgiKing burn is always a though match-up. Without SnT – Plat i always found g1 to be a losing battle (if you can get plat down g1 you win since they don't have answer for it pre-board), besides plat a well timed chasm is your only hope g1. You need to be sure they don't have the kill when you let go of the chalice. A good way to do it is to exile their lands with ulamog (or breaker if you run him).
MP does wonders against many decks (including infect). Running it MB is a meta call I guess…

[quantumactivist]

Are ppl still on ensnaring bridge md?
I'm on traditional u/g and feel like i get run over by beaters alot. there's a ton of shardless and eldrazi and lands in my meta. what's the best configuration/cards to consider for this meta?
Thanks!

[TheBoozeCube]

I've been playing around with some of my sideboard plans, which still haven't totally settled since Warping Wail claimed a full 4x maindeck slots in Cg Post. I've been finding myself boarding out Chasm in many matchups that I didn't before, mostly because I needed to free a slot and had no other good cuts. It feels awkward to lose my panic button in matchups like Shardless and Delver, but I just need the space. Aside from the obvious ones like Burn and Elves, where do y'all think Chasm is a card that *needs* to be main?


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[Leshrac82]

Song of the Dryads is ok, but against Abrupt Decay its going to let you down time and again. I advise find something else, the card is just too pervasive. Beast Within also costs 3, works at instant speed and has the same chance of getting countered. Good against moon/magus/chalice. If against control switch out for krosan grip.

I didn't get to test Song as much as i wanted (it's actually bugged on xmage, if you use it against Blood Moon every non-basic land is now a Mountain that doesn't tap for mana anymore, at least that happened to me). But my conclusion wasn't much better:
It's catch-all spot removal, but that's not really what i want. I think this deck, no matter how you build it, doesn't really want spot removal. We play more lands than other decks, our cards can't really just always trade 1-for-1 with our opponents. That's why i prefer Engineered Explosives to any other option, in a 2-color list that can work against Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon too.


I've been playing around with some of my sideboard plans, which still haven't totally settled since Warping Wail claimed a full 4x maindeck slots in Cg Post. I've been finding myself boarding out Chasm in many matchups that I didn't before, mostly because I needed to free a slot and had no other good cuts. It feels awkward to lose my panic button in matchups like Shardless and Delver, but I just need the space. Aside from the obvious ones like Burn and Elves, where do y'all think Chasm is a card that *needs* to be main?

It's also important against Infect imo, and of course can be situationally good in many matchups. I thought about cutting it from my mainboard too for the same reasons, so far i don't think i want to.


@ Leshrac82 Well this is not an actual list. I just want to test the engine (4x loam/exploration, tracker, grapple), everything else I just threw in there without too much thought at this point. I’m certain the list requires another color...
@ TheCorgiKing burn is always a though match-up.

Of course that's not the final list, but it's a start. And Depths seems like a very clear fit into that list unless you change a lot.
For the splash, i think white (for Knight and maybe sideboard cards) or red (for punishing fire and kozileks return) or even black (for a number of different things that might work or not) are the options, blue is the only splash you definitely don't want in that shell. Maybe test all the different splashs, and maybe even two splashs at the same time can work (at one point i was splashing all 3 colors, until i cut red because it didn't add enough, and black sideboard cards could do a similar job - that's why i'm playing cards like Toxic Deluge and Engineered Plague in my sideboard, at one point that was 2x Kozileks Return).

About Burn: That's one of the matchups where Dark Depths really shines. I'm 15-4 against Burn with my deck, and i always board out all the Eldrazi and Eye of Ugin, go allin on Depths or beatdown with smaller creatures, and it works great. Even preboard it's not really bad.

Something else i just wanted to post, because it came up yesterday, my opponent clearly didn't see it (because he cliqued me and didn't take anything) and i didn't even realize it until that moment: New Emrakul + Tabernacle = Plague Wind. :laugh:
So that's definitely a way for New Emrakul to win you the game even if you're very far behind on board, and not helping there is usually the biggest weakness it has.

[Fatal]

Remember that Tabernacle says destroy so it can't destroy legendary Token from Dark Depths.

[djxstream]

Just witnessed the power of @Leshrac82 's Gbw build on xmage. I was interested in that build before...now i'm sold. It rocked my RG Lands deck, seemed to always have the exact answer needed at the exact time...which is what a toolbox deck should be. Tracker was amazing, and I play tracker in my board too and have seen it's power, but it did more work in Leshrac82s build than I've ever been able to pull off...without attacking.

[Leshrac82]

Just witnessed the power of @Leshrac82 's Gbw build on xmage. I was interested in that build before...now i'm sold. It rocked my RG Lands deck, seemed to always have the exact answer needed at the exact time...which is what a toolbox deck should be. Tracker was amazing, and I play tracker in my board too and have seen it's power, but it did more work in Leshrac82s build than I've ever been able to pull off...without attacking.

Yeah, the small creatures in my deck can do a lot of work, attacking is just a bonus. Tracker is amazing, right now i'm playing 3 - more than ever before, but it seems to work. Knight is also more a tutor, it can attack, but i usually don't attack with Knight unless i have to or i really don't need to keep it up.

But as i said, Lands is a very good matchup - now i'm 29-2 against it. If you know what you're doing you won't lose often against Lands - they need basically the nuts to have a chance, and even then we might win. You had good starting hands in both games (Exploration and Loam both games i think), definitely the hands i could lose against, still i had enough answers every time.

This is the most recent list i'm testing right now:

2 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Veteran Explorer
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

2 Mox Diamond
3 Crop Rotation
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Warping Wail
2 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard:
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Warping Wail
1 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Crop Rotation
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Plague
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction

Some things might change.
1. New Emrakul or Ugin (or even something else) isn't decided yet. I tried that with the assumption i would change it back quickly, but more and more i think New Emrakul might stay.
2. Have to see if i miss the Gitrog Monster at any point. For now that slot is the third Tracker, and from the very limited testing it seems better.
3. Also cut some utility lands (Volraths Stronghold, Sea Gate Wreckage) for another fetchland, overall down a land, and got down from 3 to 2 Mox Diamonds. Another Tracker and another Oracle for these. Mostly because i seemed to struggle more than i wanted against Shardless (almost down to 50/50), so i cut some bad topdecks for more creatures - and then decided i didn't really need the utility lands for grindy matchups any more, the additional fetch is better for consistency. Have to see how this works out. (Note: After these changes i lost a lot to Delver, that was fine before. But might just be variance, don't see how these changes alone could have made that matchup bad.)
4. Ghost Quarter over Wasteland. That's very experimental, but i think it might actually work in this deck. Against decks i might waste early it's usually no difference, because they play no basics (mostly Delver, when they are stuck on 1 land - otherwise there is no point in just wasting a random land, ramping is much more important than mana denial). If i ever set this up with Crucible and some Oracles, a real lock takes a little longer with Ghost Quarter, but it can actually take out all our opponents lands. If i just want to take out an utility land, i usually don't care about the extra land my opponent gets, so it's slightly worse than Wasteland, but maybe doesn't matter. And most importantly: Ghost Quarter is a way to fix my own mana. Sometimes green mana can be an issue. Sometimes i actually want to take out my own land to help a Knight or Titania. I think if there is any deck in legacy where Ghost Quarter is better than Wasteland, it's probably this one. But i'm not that sure of myself to say i won't change it back - just so far it felt good, never seemed to be worse than Wasteland and actually won a game.

Right now i'm trying to find out if my recent changes made the grindy matchups like Shardless or Aggro Loam better (both decks i think i should be able to beat, but i'm down to 15-14 against Shardless, was much better, and i'm just 5-8 against Aggro Loam), if Delver is still a decent matchup (overall now BUG Delver 10-11, Grixis Delver 11-10, UR-Delver 6-8, RUG Delver 1-3 - but after my last changes i lost actually 9 matches in a row against different Delver decks, that doesn't feel good), what to do against Infect (5-7) and if i need to do someting more against Sneak&Show (9-7 overall, but after they added Omniscience it seems it got harder). Everything else with enough data is fine. (Well, High Tide is not fine. I can never beat that deck, but it doesn't see enough play to really matter anyway.)

[MechTactical]

I'm just fooling around with this shell for kicks. It probably doesn't have any competitive potential. I'd like to sample master Rock's brew from his UG brewery...? What are the rest of you UG players tinkering with nowadays, any breakthroughs with the new card pool?

[Rock Lee]

I'm just fooling around with this shell for kicks. It probably doesn't have any competitive potential. I'd like to sample master Rock's brew from his UG brewery...? What are the rest of you UG players tinkering with nowadays, any breakthroughs with the new card pool?

my current list:

// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [R] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [ST] Island (1)
4 [A] Tropical Island
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
2 [EMN] Emrakul, the Promised End
2 [JU] Krosan Wayfarer

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [OGW] Warping Wall
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [10E] Pithing Needle
3 [FNM] Brainstorm
2 [US] Show and Tell

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [FNM] Dismember
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap

The 1 moment's peace could become 1 rec sage, song of the dryads, a 4th grip, or a nature's claim. And Mindbreak trap is mostly a work in progress atm. I like going with a "tap out and still have answers" build without having the blue count for force of will.

[mykatdied]

my current list:

// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [R] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [ST] Island (1)
4 [A] Tropical Island
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
2 [EMN] Emrakul, the Promised End
2 [JU] Krosan Wayfarer

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [OGW] Warping Wall
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [10E] Pithing Needle
3 [FNM] Brainstorm
2 [US] Show and Tell

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [FNM] Dismember
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap

The 1 moment's peace could become 1 rec sage, song of the dryads, a 4th grip, or a nature's claim. And Mindbreak trap is mostly a work in progress atm. I like going with a "tap out and still have answers" build without having the blue count for force of will.

I find the krosan wayfarer interesting. I'm assuming it is for the ability to get an extra land into play and have a creature for emrakul. The fact that it plays similar to Sakura tribe elder in that it can chump a turn then do it's thing is relevant. Have you considered potentially trying some number of elephant grass to get an enchantment into the yard as well as well blunt the assault? That was an idea I had to try and decrease the cost of new emrakul while still being a relevant card for us.

[Drixx]

i'm not fan new printed cards i mean for us here are just bad cards what we can use it for fun from first impression i was praying for some broken card but nothing just trash maybe nic fit and d&d can find something but why make changes i'm satisfied with my current list against actual meta so i just switch a deck sometime ..

for side i'm using two titania, protector of argoth for eldrazi,canterbalance,bug,jund,d&d this card i'm wondering great potential especialy with enters the battlef. trigger fetch or crop rotate in response nice to have fast win con to another turn and ramp ..

[Rock Lee]

I find the krosan wayfarer interesting. I'm assuming it is for the ability to get an extra land into play and have a creature for emrakul. The fact that it plays similar to Sakura tribe elder in that it can chump a turn then do it's thing is relevant. Have you considered potentially trying some number of elephant grass to get an enchantment into the yard as well as well blunt the assault? That was an idea I had to try and decrease the cost of new emrakul while still being a relevant card for us.

I'm currently testing Grapple with the Past in conjunction with Krosay Wayfarer for some interesting interplay.

[mykatdied]

I'm currently testing Grapple with the Past in conjunction with Krosay Wayfarer for some interesting interplay.

Seems good. I have designed a list with Grapple as well. I am finally on expedition maps to get an artifact into the yard, grapple to recover posts and creatures. I originally had elephant grass main as a way to on demand get an enchantment, but instead I am going to try courser of cruphix since it can slow down and help against aggro, should it die after a chump block it will count as an enchantment and creature towards Emrakul. My build is also on 2 new emmy and 1 old one. I also have the new legends over the old ones to reduce the chance of milling into a shuffle effect. Here is my updated Gw list except it may end up mono green dropping white from the board so I can run more basics.

Deck: 12 post Gw (61)

Lands 28
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Forest
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
2 Savannah
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Vesuva
4 Windswept Heath

Creatures 12
3 Courser of Kruphix
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

Spells 22
1 All Is Dust
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
4 Grapple with the Past
3 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sideboard
1 All Is Dust
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Krosan Grip
1 Maze of Ith
2 Rest in Peace
2 Sacred Ground
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Surgical Extraction

[Rock Lee]

Seems good. I have designed a list with Grapple as well. I am finally on expedition maps to get an artifact into the yard, grapple to recover posts and creatures. I originally had elephant grass main as a way to on demand get an enchantment, but instead I am going to try courser of cruphix since it can slow down and help against aggro, should it die after a chump block it will count as an enchantment and creature towards Emrakul. My build is also on 2 new emmy and 1 old one. I also have the new legends over the old ones to reduce the chance of milling into a shuffle effect. Here is my updated Gw list except it may end up mono green dropping white from the board so I can run more basics.

Deck: 12 post Gw (61)

Lands 28
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Forest
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
2 Savannah
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Vesuva
4 Windswept Heath

Creatures 12
3 Courser of Kruphix
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

Spells 22
1 All Is Dust
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
4 Grapple with the Past
3 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sideboard
1 All Is Dust
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Krosan Grip
1 Maze of Ith
2 Rest in Peace
2 Sacred Ground
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Surgical Extraction

I like the list, it is very close to mine. Really just dropping the blue brainstorm/show for grapple/courser, which makes complete sense. Minimize dead draws with courser, and be able to play everything, means brainstorm is less required. Grapple makes me wonder about the merits of eternal witness, but perhaps that is too cheeky.

The sideboard seems a bit hodge podge, but I understand the G/w splash for this purpose. I simply loath the idea of dying to turn 1-2 plays before sphere is online.

[mykatdied]

I like the list, it is very close to mine. Really just dropping the blue brainstorm/show for grapple/courser, which makes complete sense. Minimize dead draws with courser, and be able to play everything, means brainstorm is less required. Grapple makes me wonder about the merits of eternal witness, but perhaps that is too cheeky.

The sideboard seems a bit hodge podge, but I understand the G/w splash for this purpose. I simply loath the idea of dying to turn 1-2 plays before sphere is online.

Eternal Witness would be awesome but definitely pretty cheeky. Perhaps even just too cute.

I really think I'm dropping the white. It will likely be in favor for additional surgical extraction or some Grafdigger's cage

[TheCorgiKing]

I know that it's been mentioned as a brewing card in the past and it's a card I've rotated in and out of the deck myself a few times, but Oath of Nissa seems a bit more relevant now with the New Emrakul. Running multiples ensures that they hit the yard and they're effectively a Ancient Stirrings that doesn't dig as deep but grabs things of color (unfortunately this doesn't include artifacts).

[MechTactical]

I thought you GW guys would try riftstone portal with grapple? I guess you don’t need the mana fixing since it’s a very light splash.
Anyhow I went through flashback cards and didn’t find anything exciting except MP :really: Have to go through retrace cards as well I guess? What else can we run with grapple that would be okay 2 dump into the yard or even be beneficial there like riftstone?

I played with wayfarer last night and he seems very solid. I’ll definitely keep him in for a while.

EDIT: Leshrac82 and myself had a slave-fest late last night. We each got to ulamog the other with extreme prejudice :laugh:

[TheBoozeCube]

I thought you GW guys would try riftstone portal with grapple? I guess you don’t need the mana fixing since it’s a very light splash.
Anyhow I went through flashback cards and didn’t find anything exciting except MP :really: Have to go through retrace cards as well I guess? What else can we run with grapple that would be okay 2 dump into the yard or even be beneficial there like riftstone?

I played with wayfarer last night and he seems very solid. I’ll definitely keep him in for a while.

EDIT: Leshrac82 and myself had a slave-fest late last night. We each got to ulamog the other with extreme prejudice :laugh:

I tried Riftstone Portal in Cg a while back. It's literally the best thing you can Crop Rotation away. But I often didn't find it reliable because Deathrite Shaman is a card.


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[MechTactical]

DRS is a card I agree. However, now we have wail and grapple can still fetch it if targeted by DRS (don't know if that's worth it though).

[Rock Lee]

My mono green list is shaping up well. Still unsure on the sb. And I think moment's peace being sb'd is purely a meta call. Moment's Peace's synergy with Grapple with the Past is a bit hard to pass up maindeck, but I think the deck has enough tricks atm to not need to hinge as heavily on the card as I used to.

Still need to test the burn matchup to determine if nature's claim is required. Also Eldrazi aggro swings heavily on chalice or not. I may need to include rec sages.

// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
5 [R] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
2 [EMN] Emrakul, the Promised End
3 [JU] Krosan Wayfarer

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [OGW] Warping Wall
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [10E] Pithing Needle
3 [EMN] Grapple with the Past

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [FNM] Dismember
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap

[TheBoozeCube]

My mono green list is shaping up well. Still unsure on the sb. And I think moment's peace being sb'd is purely a meta call. Moment's Peace's synergy with Grapple with the Past is a bit hard to pass up maindeck, but I think the deck has enough tricks atm to not need to hinge as heavily on the card as I used to.

Still need to test the burn matchup to determine if nature's claim is required. Also Eldrazi aggro swings heavily on chalice or not. I may need to include rec sages.

// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
5 [R] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
2 [EMN] Emrakul, the Promised End
3 [JU] Krosan Wayfarer

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [OGW] Warping Wall
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [10E] Pithing Needle
3 [EMN] Grapple with the Past

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [FNM] Dismember
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap


If you're not playing Ancient Stirrings, what about Sylvan Scrying over Expedition Map? It does pretty much the same thing but gets around Chalice.


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[Rock Lee]

If you're not playing Ancient Stirrings, what about Sylvan Scrying over Expedition Map? It does pretty much the same thing but gets around Chalice.


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I really do loathe sorcery speed, but I think if I were to do either, I would run ancient stirrings. Adds to the sorcery emrakul reduction, and is the necessary low mana to not get in the way of instant responses.

[Ponders]

I didn't get to test Song as much as i wanted (it's actually bugged on xmage, if you use it against Blood Moon every non-basic land is now a Mountain that doesn't tap for mana anymore, at least that happened to me). But my conclusion wasn't much better:
It's catch-all spot removal, but that's not really what i want. I think this deck, no matter how you build it, doesn't really want spot removal. We play more lands than other decks, our cards can't really just always trade 1-for-1 with our opponents. That's why i prefer Engineered Explosives to any other option, in a 2-color list that can work against Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon too.

The answer to that comes to knowing why/how did repeal fell out of fashion? I'm still for it, thus the instant speed spot removal. I haven't tried EE in any context. Abrupt Decay is the 6th most top played card in the format, so there you go. Wasteland is the top land and is in 50% of all legacy decks. I once advocated for running it, to be more in grain with the format. I haven't given up this idea, but instead I'm finding room for ghost quarter to keep pithing needle relevant.
Krosan Wayfarer seems workable, maybe with Dark depths combo.

[Lormador]

I personally think it's just that, fashion. Repeal is an awesome card in this deck and I'm not considering a cut for it. It's slightly worse now that Delver can't be cleared for just U, but U1 isn't so hard for this deck to get either. I play almost everything at instant speed, except for turn 1 moves, win cons, the occasional 1 CMC artifact, Trinket Mage, and casting/cracking EEs.

I suppose the big Delve zombie fish is annoying as a Repeal target, but OTOH after that thing gets repealed... it might as well be exiled.

I also have some doubt as to whether it's really worth running less-than-optimal cards just to make Mindrakul cheaper. This deck regularly hits those mana numbers even with no discount at all.

I've been trying E.E. in the main as a Trinket Mage target, and it's a little disappointing so far. Most of the problems it solves could also be solved by just cleanly ramping into an Eldrazi, so the subset of games where it's necessary as a speed bump for my opponent is a pretty small one. It's almost never dead, on the other hand, so asking it to win the game for me is probably unrealistic given how live it is.

[MechTactical]

I personally think it's just that, fashion. Repeal is an awesome card in this deck and I'm not considering a cut for it. It's slightly worse now that Delver can't be cleared for just U, but U1 isn't so hard for this deck to get either. I play almost everything at instant speed, except for turn 1 moves, win cons, the occasional 1 CMC artifact, Trinket Mage, and casting/cracking EEs.

I suppose the big Delve zombie fish is annoying as a Repeal target, but OTOH after that thing gets repealed... it might as well be exiled.

I also have some doubt as to whether it's really worth running less-than-optimal cards just to make Mindrakul cheaper. This deck regularly hits those mana numbers even with no discount at all.

I've been trying E.E. in the main as a Trinket Mage target, and it's a little disappointing so far. Most of the problems it solves could also be solved by just cleanly ramping into an Eldrazi, so the subset of games where it's necessary as a speed bump for my opponent is a pretty small one. It's almost never dead, on the other hand, so asking it to win the game for me is probably unrealistic given how live it is.

i've been running EE for some time. Currently i'm considering it almost exclusively as efficient MB chalice hate paired with trinket - nothing more. Mr. Leshrarc has moxes and it makes more sense i guess. for yo average UG build i don't think its worth running. ive even lost games because i was fooling around with EE instead of going for a simpler line o'play...

[Ponders]

In your opinion:

Is it better to pair cards that stall out the game (moment's peace, chasm, maze) with acceleration (exploration, wayfarer, map), or is it better to double down on one or the other? What generally works better, stalling or accelerating?

[MechTactical]

In your opinion:

Is it better to pair cards that stall out the game (moment's peace, chasm, maze) with acceleration (exploration, wayfarer, map), or is it better to double down on one or the other?

That's probably a meta call. In general my 2 cents say go for consistency and don't panic about bad match-ups / hate - be prepared 4 it but don't panic and don't dismember yo build 4 it - except if your meta requires it. There will always be hate 4 us in legacy and it remains to be seen if we'll ever make it 2 T1... Try do what we do best = play long enough to inevitably win and have fun :wink:

[cwcomposer]

Has anyone tested 1-2 Exploration in mono-green Post?

And what about 1 Deathrite Shaman (in a Green Sun's Zenith list)?

[Lormador]

In your opinion:

Is it better to pair cards that stall out the game (moment's peace, chasm, maze) with acceleration (exploration, wayfarer, map), or is it better to double down on one or the other? What generally works better, stalling or accelerating?

I think the middle path works the best, running the most efficient cards of each class, from which we should be able to get a balanced deck that does what it's supposed to do. Of course it's always going to be a metagame call, and some of us have varying degrees of unpredictability to deal with. The size and expected composition of a tournament count for a lot with this particular deck in my opinion. I would be pretty nervous about taking it to a large event or a distant, unfamiliar tournament.

In the city where I live, knowing most of the local Legacy folks, their decks and habits, I'm very happy just taking the most humdrum, no-frills build of UG Cloudpost that I can come up with. 40% of the room will be Miracles and DnT, 40% will be Grixis Delver or BUG Delver (small chance of UR Delver if that player is feeling cheeky), slight chance of Nic Fit, and I'll definitely need to get through Food Chain along the way. There is one Sneaky Show player and one dude who switches between Lands and ANT. The guy who pushes Eldrazi rarely comes out these days. In a closed meta like this I think Cloudpost can really shine.

There's a real advantage of surprise a lot of the time out here, too. Folks don't know what I'm doing and they keep trying to get "control" of the game. I can just play some lands, put a Show on the stack, shrug when it gets countered, play a few more lands, crack a map for a Cavern, put a Titan on the stack, shrug when his trigger resolves, and it's all she wrote. I can tell by the look on the other player's face that they'd been preparing for the wrong battle.

So for me I think... 3 Needles and 3 Crop Rotations... 3 Maps... definitely 4 Brainstorm and 4 Top... 1 Candelabra and 2 Trinket Mage to find them... 4 Repeal (mostly used on Top actually) are all I need to get there, though I am considering going up to 4 Maps and cutting one of my 3 Warping Wails.

Sometimes I wonder if it would be fun to play mono green, and use Boseiju to power out GSZ in the same way I use Maps and Caverns to power out Titans now.

One idea I really liked from a few posts back was Tireless Tracker, but I'm not sure what he's supposed to be coming in for. Is it for free wins when the opponent boards out removal? Like Baneslayer Angel used to appear in creatureless Miracles lists?

EDIT: Ah ha! My reading skills serve me well!

DRS as a GSZ target is discussed around pages 20-40 of the thread, there are lists that try him in the SB, 1-of GSZ target, and 3-4 of MD. He's the hotness in the thread for awhile before he gets cast aside fairly suddenly. Apparently there were some problems with him turning on enemy removal, and difficulties with Crop Rotating away one's colored lands just prior to his unfortunate demise. Abrupt Decay was cited as an objection to him. He may be a totally legit choice that merits more testing, I never saw much more than a few Rock Lee lists adopt him at the time.

Exploration is brought up again and again throughout this thread. Rock Lee used to point people to the Developing thread where the card has been considered since the Dawn of the Age apparently. I can't recall ever seeing it in a successful list.

[Leshrac82]

EE probably works better for me than for other lists because of my Mox Diamonds and the Deathrite, that makes it much easier to cast it for 3 and so it's a reliable maindeck answer to Blood Moon, among other things.


Sometimes I wonder if it would be fun to play mono green, and use Boseiju to power out GSZ in the same way I use Maps and Caverns to power out Titans now.

One idea I really liked from a few posts back was Tireless Tracker, but I'm not sure what he's supposed to be coming in for. Is it for free wins when the opponent boards out removal? Like Baneslayer Angel used to appear in creatureless Miracles lists?

EDIT: Ah ha! My reading skills serve me well!

DRS as a GSZ target is discussed around pages 20-40 of the thread, there are lists that try him in the SB, 1-of GSZ target, and 3-4 of MD. He's the hotness in the thread for awhile before he gets cast aside fairly suddenly. Apparently there were some problems with him turning on enemy removal, and difficulties with Crop Rotating away one's colored lands just prior to his unfortunate demise. Abrupt Decay was cited as an objection to him. He may be a totally legit choice that merits more testing, I never saw much more than a few Rock Lee lists adopt him at the time.

Exploration is brought up again and again throughout this thread. Rock Lee used to point people to the Developing thread where the card has been considered since the Dawn of the Age apparently. I can't recall ever seeing it in a successful list.

Boseiju: Thought about that in my build, i obviously can't play Cavern with my large number of different creature types, so Boseiju with GSZ could do that job. But as i don't play Expedition Maps, and Crop Rotation is rather risky against counterspells, i don't think i can have that often enough when i want it. Could work in a different build, but if you just want the GSZ for Titans, you are probably better off with Cavern.

Tireless Tracker works amazing in my deck (in almost every matchup, sometimes it's just a draw engine, sometimes it's a fast win condition), how you could include it in a more normal shell i don't know, but that card is just really strong.

DRS is good in my deck, again. It's not just acceleration and color fixing, it's also maindeck graveyard hate against combo decks relying on the graveyard - if i untap with Deathrite against Reanimator or Dredge, i usually just win. Similar against Storm, it usualy prevents the PiF kill, so they have to go for Ad Nauseam. All those decks have no maindecks answers to it. Against other decks that use the graveyard it can be at least annoying.
It dies to Abrupt Decay, that makes it worse against a lot of decks, but again, my deck has a lot of targets to Abrupt Decay, if they spend it on the Deathrite, something else might live. That might be a problem for decks without any other targets though.
There are some matchups where i board it out, and i wouldn't play more than 1 copy (with a number of GSZ to find it).

The problem with Exploration is that you probably won't use it later in the game. Could work with Courser, but Oracle does the job in just one card. Could also work with Tireless Tracker, but i decided to go for other options.


Overall these are a lot of ideas that work together in my build - and i can only repeat myself: The list is really not bad! You need some time to get used to it, and just taking it to your next event untested is probably a bad idea, but there are enough ways to test it online for free. Even if the list turns out to be not ideal for certain metas, there are ways to adjust that list.

In a way my deck is the build around for Tireless Tracker (even though the Gitrog Monster was the reason for the deck, Tracker always was much more important), just like other people are trying a build around for New Emrakul - but i think Tireless Tracker has much more potential than New Emrakul. That card is strong enough to build a deck around it, and i think it's stronger in a Cloudpost shell than in any other shell (and they still play it in other shells and are happy with it). I don't know if my deck is already the perfect shell, but i think it's a good start. Or you could start with a more normal shell and just add 2+ Trackers for additional copies of other cards, and just see how that works out.

[Lormador]

Tracker looks awesome, I'm just trying to figure out in which matchups I ought to be using him.

Is he possibly a trump card against Delver decks that have boarded out their Lightning Bolts? I can imagine, if I were playing Delver, it would seem like a pretty good idea to board out those bolts and bring in either more robust countermagic, hand disruption, or both.

Re: EE, one of the problems with using this in a normal build is the gymnastics you have to do to get 3 counters on it. The normal UG deck can do this using Karakas or Bojuka Bog, but that's the sort of thing that needs to be set up well in advance. That much setup can usually cast a deadly creature, so I'm still on the fence about EE.

[Zotmaster]

If you're not playing Ancient Stirrings, what about Sylvan Scrying over Expedition Map? It does pretty much the same thing but gets around Chalice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I really do loathe sorcery speed, but I think if I were to do either, I would run ancient stirrings. Adds to the sorcery emrakul reduction, and is the necessary low mana to not get in the way of instant responses.

Sorcery-speed loathing aside, I think Mulch or Gather the Pack could also prove to be interesting. Pack digs deeper and stops you from accidentally dumping either Emrakul, but Mulch can also help you hit land drops, albeit with the caveat that your opponent knows what's coming. Both dodge Chalice of the Void on one as well.

[TheBoozeCube]

In your opinion:

Is it better to pair cards that stall out the game (moment's peace, chasm, maze) with acceleration (exploration, wayfarer, map), or is it better to double down on one or the other? What generally works better, stalling or accelerating?

I think you need a healthy mix of both. This is also one of the reasons I run a full playset of Candles; they do double duty as acceleration with Posts and stalling with Maze. Same with land tutors.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TheBoozeCube]

Has anyone tested 1-2 Exploration in mono-green Post?

And what about 1 Deathrite Shaman (in a Green Sun's Zenith list)?

I ran 3x Exploration in Colorless Green Post for years. It's an extremely high-variance card: incredible on turns 1-2, the worst card in your deck after that.

[Zotmaster]

I ran 3x Exploration in Colorless Green Post for years. It's an extremely high-variance card: incredible on turns 1-2, the worst card in your deck after that.

I agree with this and I had the same objection to the card, but I can't help but wonder if it could somehow work in conjunction with Oracle of Mul Daya, Courser of Kruphix and Crucible of Worlds.

[mykatdied]

I have tried exploration in my GW build with Oracle of Mul Daya and courser of Kruphix and past turn 2 it's usually very underwhelming. If you can go no disruption into turn 2 primeval titan it is sweet otherwise it's not much better than running explore which I tend to stick to since late game it is at least a cantrip to get a little deeper into your deck.

[TTX]

Tracker looks awesome, I'm just trying to figure out in which matchups I ought to be using him.

He is fantastics against Shardless and Miracles. I really enjoy him with Veteran Explorer, Oracle of Mul Daya, Gitrog Monster and Primeval Titan. Not to mention Crop Rotation, Knight of the Reliquary, and even Crucible of Worlds.

[HomicidalRambo]

Whelp played in the Columbus SCG Legacy Classic. Finished 9th 5-2 overall...just missed top 8 was kind of a bummer. Posted week or so ago changes I made from the general core.

My deck list:

Lands (27)
4 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Polluted Delta
3 x Tropical island
1 x Island
1 x Forest
1 x Cavern of Souls
1 x Glacial Chasm
1 x Tabernacle
1 x Bojuka Bog
1 x Karakas
1 x Eye of Ugin
4 x Cloudpost
4 x Glimmerpost
2 x Vesuva

Creatures (7)
1 x Emrakul
1 x New Emrakul
1 x Nulamog
4 x PrimeTime

Spells
4 x SDT
4 x Repeal
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Crop Rotation
4 x Show n Tell
2 x Ugin
2 x EE
2 x Candelabra of Tawnos

SB:
4 x Surgical Extraction
2 x FoW
2 x Flusterstorm
2 x Swag Song (May go to 4 Flusters)
2 x Krosen Grip
2 x Pithing Needle
1 x Nephalia Academy

Dice rolls...not good today rolled 1 of the 7 games i won for me just below average.

Matches:
Lands 1-1...won 2-0 and lost 0-2 (1st time there) yep there was a lost to a bye match. no pithing MB was a good test. Didn't need it. SB I brought them in. But with 4 repeals and bog MB...you can slow them enough to do what you need. Brought needle in from SB game 2. Lands loss game I was on draw to play and no lands...mulli then get only 1 to start and didn't see another that game. Next game...no lands, mulli and get my only 2 vesuva to start as my lands. Pretty awful...I'll do the odds for that with 27 MB not likely. Why i upped from 25 when played before I refuse to loose to non land drops in land deck. Won't increase from 27, odds to happen again very low. Die to a 20/20 when have 2 repeals and 2 crops sitting in your hand is just ridiculous. Other game was a joke as always is. Repeal again is uber good.

U/R delver 1-0...won 2-0. Crop rotate instant to cavern crushed Price of prog. Repeal and EE to stabilize EE. The more burn heavy delvers imo are harder than grins type so was happy. Game 2 i dropped to 1 life and scratched back. Only happened from 2 shuffles in a row to top. upping to 6 fetches played huge here.

Storm 1-0...won 2-0. Bog MB with crop rotation crushed him game 1. glimmers getting life to 26+ to make 13 minimum storm triggers and game went long enough. Game 2 the nehalia came in. FoW 1st discard. Had SnT and Emrakul in hand. Next turn...another d/c and crop rotated for Neph academy. It won me the game. Was glad got to test it out. Still needs more. But saved me loosing the combo to finish game. Surgical extraction played big.

Dredge 1-0...won 2-0. Again crop rotation is a life savior here. Get bog. He had a very good turn 1 and I was on draw. Crop rotated for bog. So got rid of like 1/3 his deck and multi dredges. Had 3 creatures out. Next turn SDT found a crop and got tabernacle. GG. Next game SB comes in. 4 surgical extractions are huge.

Omnishow 1-1...yep drew storm and omnishow x 2 for 3 of my 7 games. Lovely. Lost 1-2 and won 2-1. The 1-2 I would of won if my swag song was a fluster. Flustered one SnT but swag got Forced on 2nd. It was sad. Considered running 4 Flusters and prob only change I will make in the deck. The new Emrakual played well here. Almost hard casted him, which against that deck would usually be quite good. laid him down on a SnT (he cast...SB out games 2 and 3). No omni...he dropped emrakul. I had 2 crops in hand. Had them all day upping to 4 with 6 fetches. Made deck so consistent. Got to know how to play around them with counters. Led him with a brainstorm while on stack. He was tapped out. He forced thinking fluster since saw it already. No counter on crop got karakas and new emry prot instants. GG 2 turns later. Still not sold on him though. Another card up in the air, will need to see the groups thoughts in next few month on him.

Overall, a very good day. Been playing 7-8 months and learned a few more tricks with the deck. New updates from old made deck flow so much better and handled ago much better. SB all combo and graveyard hate. Still never play tested against miracles in tourney in 7-8 months. Used the SDT repeal move to draw 2 cards and look at top 3 afterwards 3 times in the tourney. If you don't know what I'm talking about please look it up. Repeals imo is one of the best cards in the deck and crop 2nd. Repeals is great D, card advantage, ridiculous card advantage with SDT, and with 2 candles make turn 3-4 ugins very possible.

Any advice please hit me up. I need more practice with omnishow...today def helped. 3 grips maybe in the future as well and 4 flusters would of made 6-1 even with bad draws on land match and instant top 8...

Best

[Hencules]

EE probably works better for me than for other lists because of my Mox Diamonds and the Deathrite, that makes it much easier to cast it for 3 and so it's a reliable maindeck answer to Blood Moon, among other things.



Boseiju: Thought about that in my build, i obviously can't play Cavern with my large number of different creature types, so Boseiju with GSZ could do that job. But as i don't play Expedition Maps, and Crop Rotation is rather risky against counterspells, i don't think i can have that often enough when i want it. Could work in a different build, but if you just want the GSZ for Titans, you are probably better off with Cavern.

Tireless Tracker works amazing in my deck (in almost every matchup, sometimes it's just a draw engine, sometimes it's a fast win condition), how you could include it in a more normal shell i don't know, but that card is just really strong.

DRS is good in my deck, again. It's not just acceleration and color fixing, it's also maindeck graveyard hate against combo decks relying on the graveyard - if i untap with Deathrite against Reanimator or Dredge, i usually just win. Similar against Storm, it usualy prevents the PiF kill, so they have to go for Ad Nauseam. All those decks have no maindecks answers to it. Against other decks that use the graveyard it can be at least annoying.
It dies to Abrupt Decay, that makes it worse against a lot of decks, but again, my deck has a lot of targets to Abrupt Decay, if they spend it on the Deathrite, something else might live. That might be a problem for decks without any other targets though.
There are some matchups where i board it out, and i wouldn't play more than 1 copy (with a number of GSZ to find it).

The problem with Exploration is that you probably won't use it later in the game. Could work with Courser, but Oracle does the job in just one card. Could also work with Tireless Tracker, but i decided to go for other options.


Overall these are a lot of ideas that work together in my build - and i can only repeat myself: The list is really not bad! You need some time to get used to it, and just taking it to your next event untested is probably a bad idea, but there are enough ways to test it online for free. Even if the list turns out to be not ideal for certain metas, there are ways to adjust that list.

In a way my deck is the build around for Tireless Tracker (even though the Gitrog Monster was the reason for the deck, Tracker always was much more important), just like other people are trying a build around for New Emrakul - but i think Tireless Tracker has much more potential than New Emrakul. That card is strong enough to build a deck around it, and i think it's stronger in a Cloudpost shell than in any other shell (and they still play it in other shells and are happy with it). I don't know if my deck is already the perfect shell, but i think it's a good start. Or you could start with a more normal shell and just add 2+ Trackers for additional copies of other cards, and just see how that works out.

I've been rocking your list on xmage and it's awesome! Really like it. It's a lot of fun and very versatile. Without Pithing needles I do have trouble beating death and taxes, what's your experience with the matchup?

[Lormador]

Regarding Tireless Tracker, I want to play this card very much but I'm just not sure what role it should have. Jarvis Yu, in his Lands episode of Legacy's Allure, explains that this card is primarily intended primarily for Rest In Peace decks that are likely to board out (or reduce) removal, such as the Counterbalance decks that challenge Lands.

As we needn't fear any RIP deck and welcome Miracles matchups, I wonder whether the card is necessary.

I think my next test will be to switch out Warping Wail (as much as I love it) for DRS. Deathrite was incorporated quickly, did well, and was suddenly dropped on a basis that is not clear to me personally. Maybe it is, in fact, good enough. Or maybe I'll simply confirm that Rock was right in the first place.

The curse of my life is never being able to leave well enough alone with a list, I have to experiment (even with known failures) in order to come to the vanilla one on my own.

[mykatdied]

Regarding Tireless Tracker, I want to play this card very much but I'm just not sure what role it should have. Jarvis Yu, in his Lands episode of Legacy's Allure, explains that this card is primarily intended primarily for Rest In Peace decks that are likely to board out (or reduce) removal, such as the Counterbalance decks that challenge Lands.

As we needn't fear any RIP deck and welcome Miracles matchups, I wonder whether the card is necessary.

I think my next test will be to switch out Warping Wail (as much as I love it) for DRS. Deathrite was quickly, did well, and was suddenly dropped on a basis that is not clear to me personally. Maybe it is, in fact, good enough. Or maybe I'll simply confirm that Rock was right in the first place.

The curse of my life is never being able to leave well enough alone with a list, I have to experiment (even with known failures) in order to come to the vanilla one on my own.

In 12 post I don't believe trackers role to be beating rest in peace. However trackers role in 12 post is to provide an early threst that can benefit from what we want to do, play lands, a lot if them. Between cards like crop rotation, primeval titan, map to find more land we should be able to grind out most any match with it. Even against miracles tracker is likely fine as a way to have additional threats early that they need to answer rather than only relying on only our titans.

[maCHOOga]

Whelp played in the Columbus SCG Legacy Classic. Finished 9th 5-2 overall...just missed top 8 was kind of a bummer. Posted week or so ago changes I made from the general core.



I saw your list on SCG. Well done, sorry for the salty 9th on breakers.
FYI SCG listed you playing only 3 cloudposts, which I'm glad was a mistake on their part.

Did you have any sweet victories with Mindrakul? Did you ever had any situations where you chose to search for it over Nulamog?

Nephalia Academy seems like an awesome addition if your planning to go with a spell based anti-combo suite.

[Leshrac82]

I've been rocking your list on xmage and it's awesome! Really like it. It's a lot of fun and very versatile. Without Pithing needles I do have trouble beating death and taxes, what's your experience with the matchup?

Nice, it took some time but more and more people come around to my list! :smile:

In my personal experience D&T is still a very good matchup - you can lose, and if you do, it often doesn't look close at all, but i'm beating it more often than not (my record now is 25-8). That said, pretty much everybody else who tested my list has problems with D&T.

The key to win this is usually to make a lot of landdrops, so their mana denial is less effective. Sticking an Oracle is the best way to do that (i would play any cheaper creature as bait just to try to stick an Oracle), a Tracker can help too, and if you resolve a Titan it will probably be enough. I like to keep very landheavy hands against D&T, i'd rather have 6 lands than 2 lands. That can go wrong if they just have a very aggressive hand, but we do have some removal (EE is great, Warping Wail has a lot of targets, postboard we have even more options).

Somewhere in this thread i read that D&T was a matchup where your Eldrazi don't matter and just the Titan wins the game. That's not true - the Titan wins the game, but just by giving you enough mana to finally resolve your Eldrazi. I played 4 matches where i boarded out my Eldrazi to test that, and i lost all 4 of them. The Eldrazi are not great in your hand, because it takes so long to cast them, but in this matchup you actually need them to win the game. The board gets usually very cluttered on their side, and they have a lot of ways to defend against your midrange creatures or Marit Lage (very useless here, don't try it unless you absolutely have to, and always board out the Depths), while you can't defend yourself forever against their evasion creatures.


Regarding Tireless Tracker and Lands: I played a lot against Lands lately (and won every match), they always board in Tireless Tracker against me. I actually lost one game to lands just because of their Tracker, it's a very scary card to face. And in the Lands thread they are at least discussing the option to board it in every single time, and some are going up to 4 copies in the board. From the other side of things, whenever i faced a Tracker, against Lands, NicFit or even in the mirror, if you can't kill it, it just forces you to end the game as fast as possible, otherwise you won't come back.

Just try that card online or wherever you playtest before you make a plan where you want it (and for that purpose, i would really put it in the maindeck, even if you don't plan to do that in your final list). Knowing what a card does and actually seeing it in action are two different things. In my opinion it is good in every single matchup, sometimes as a card drawing engine and big blocker (against fair decks mostly), sometimes as a fast beater (3 hits are often enough, that can be relevant when you want a fast clock for example against combo). And if it dies right away, it's still not that bad, because you will usually have 1-2 clues left over. (Just as you don't mind that much if a Titan dies right away - 1-2 clues are not the same as 2 lands, but Tracker is much easier to cast.) Don't think "if they kill it, it's bad", it's rather "if they don't kill it, they probably lose, and if they kill it, it's still a 2 for 1".


About trying new cards: I finally decided to give Grapple with the Past a try in my deck, and so far i like it. One major issue with the deck is the consistency, some draws just don't work at all, and Grapple should help with that a lot. Not sure what i want to cut for it, but i probably want 2-3 copies in the deck.

Also decided to try out Moment's Peace in the board (for Engineered Plague, that let me down a few times in a row), that did some work too and might stay.

My list is always changing, just the core remains the same. So if anybody trying my list has an idea to improve something, i'm open to suggestions.

[HomicidalRambo]

I saw your list on SCG. Well done, sorry for the salty 9th on breakers.
FYI SCG listed you playing only 3 cloudposts, which I'm glad was a mistake on their part.

Did you have any sweet victories with Mindrakul? Did you ever had any situations where you chose to search for it over Nulamog?

Nephalia Academy seems like an awesome addition if your planning to go with a spell based anti-combo suite.


Nephalia Academy played well. SB storm is very heavy d/c and how I usually loose to them. It saved me in game 2 on storm by not letting him dump my show n tell. He casted duress turn 2, and I crop rotated for it. Game chging play. I would of had no hand after the 6 times he kept d/c just to prevent 6 turns of emrakul being showed in. Which still happened. Screwed his mana enough to prevent enough storm triggers to kill me. Def most likely will stay. Wasn't sold with swag. Nice if get a moon deck for counters...but fluster seems better. May go to 4 flusters or 3 flusters and 3 FoW for my 6 counters.

Mindrakul was neat and def good. Maindeck worthy...I need to test it more. The protection from instants is better than expected. Beat show deck 2 games in a row. He casted show and I laid it down. He couldn't bounce it. It is there only defense to bridges etc. Old emrakul prot colors I get it, but I replaced him for new kozilek. Unlike, kozilek he is a flying trample 13/13 with prot from instants. Gries' worst nightmare. He couldn't attack and I could trample over. It was very nice. If I laid new kozilek would of lost to him. So he benefited me nicely there. For sweet play. Got him over ula during other Omni show match-up and he countered him but his cast trigger resolved. His turn casted show n tell to use his own force and exile Omni. Was sweet. He had for lands a CoT, ancient tomb, and island. If cast ulamog I would of exiled the blue and other land. If he drew a blue his show was cmon out with his 2 colorless producing land and Omni on the table. He didn't have a great card to play with Omni. So that was neat I felt, but not game changing. Needs more testing though. I still like it over the new kozilkek. If use for him, I think better. Nulamog gets the nod imo right now. Plat emp is gone for me way to easy to bounce or destroy since artifact...So for now he takes spot 3 in my deck list for big guns. Hope that helps.

[Hencules]

Nice, it took some time but more and more people come around to my list! :smile:

.

I'm enjoying it so thanks :). In my limited testing it seems that getting Knight to stick has more impact than getting a tracker to stick. In what type of situations do you prefer one over the other?

[Skriger]

I've been playing around with some of my sideboard plans, which still haven't totally settled since Warping Wail claimed a full 4x maindeck slots in Cg Post. I've been finding myself boarding out Chasm in many matchups that I didn't before, mostly because I needed to free a slot and had no other good cuts. It feels awkward to lose my panic button in matchups like Shardless and Delver, but I just need the space. Aside from the obvious ones like Burn and Elves, where do y'all think Chasm is a card that *needs* to be main?


Chasm has been kind of the stick in the spokes card when I play it. It seems to only really work well against Elves and burn. When used against delver, i end up dying anyways. I ended up putting it into my SB because of this and I run Dark Depths/ Thespian's Stage instead. Has a bit better pairing against burn and elves and also can be dirty against delver since they typically are only running 1-2 vapor snag. You could also go to the Bant version again and remove it completely and run 4 terminus MB that will keep things under control except against burn. But then you just run 4 Leylines in SB and Platinum Emperion.

[Leshrac82]

I'm enjoying it so thanks :). In my limited testing it seems that getting Knight to stick has more impact than getting a tracker to stick. In what type of situations do you prefer one over the other?

Knight is better if it sticks in most situations, but does nothing if it doesn't stick, while Tracker should still bring some clues along (usually play it before your landdrop). So when i don't expect it to stick and just want to get a little bit ahead, i like Tracker more. And in some situations you just don't have the lands to find a win with Knight, you need to get ahead on cards instead.

Some examples:
1. Against D&T. Lets say you have 5 lands, 2 of them forests and no cloudposts, they have 2 ports. If you turn your Forests into Cloudposts, they will just port them down, you win nothing. If you play a Tracker instead, the clues you get can ensure you are hitting your landdrop every turn, and eventually you will have too much to port it all down. (And if they StP it, Tracker is better too if you had a landdrop left after you played it.)
2. Against Blood Moon. Knight is pretty much useless, Tracker allows you to make landdrops and/or find answers to Blood Moon (well, RecSage could answer the Blood Moon right away, so lets say you're up against Magus instead).
3. Against Miracles, they have some cards in hand, not used any removal so far. There is no way any creature you play will stick. Just get a Tracker and make a landdrop, a fetchland would be nice to get 2 clues out of it.

Generally, the more removal you expect and the more time you have, the better Tracker gets compared to Knight. Still, 3/4 times i get Knight over Tracker. The reason i still play only 2 Knights, and in some lists up to 3 Trackers, is that sometimes Knight is a little hard to cast on curve. I usually don't keep hands without green mana, but i have to keep a lot of hands without the mana to hardcast Knight. I found i want exactly one backup Knight, in case the first one dies. I rarely lose the second one too, and if i do there are usually better options than to go for a third Knight, so going with just 2 to minimize the situations with an uncastable Knight in hand seems ideal.

[MechTactical]

Whelp played in the Columbus SCG Legacy Classic. Finished 9th 5-2 overall...just missed top 8 was kind of a bummer. Posted week or so ago changes I made from the general core.

My deck list:

Lands (27)
4 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Polluted Delta
3 x Tropical island
1 x Island
1 x Forest
1 x Cavern of Souls
1 x Glacial Chasm
1 x Tabernacle
1 x Bojuka Bog
1 x Karakas
1 x Eye of Ugin
4 x Cloudpost
4 x Glimmerpost
2 x Vesuva

Creatures (7)
1 x Emrakul
1 x New Emrakul
1 x Nulamog
4 x PrimeTime

Spells
4 x SDT
4 x Repeal
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Crop Rotation
4 x Show n Tell
2 x Ugin
2 x EE
2 x Candelabra of Tawnos

SB:
4 x Surgical Extraction
2 x FoW
2 x Flusterstorm
2 x Swag Song (May go to 4 Flusters)
2 x Krosen Grip
2 x Pithing Needle
1 x Nephalia Academy

Best

Thanks for inspiring me to play repeal again. The list is all business i like it. probably no point asking why you don't like trinket :laugh: Though, i feel i would be more comfortable with another SnT target over ugin.

[HomicidalRambo]

Thanks for inspiring me to play repeal again. The list is all business i like it. probably no point asking why you don't like trinket :laugh: Though, i feel i would be more comfortable with another SnT target over ugin.

Ugin with candle/repeal build has been huge for me. He is fairly easy to cast and crushes so many decks...grixis, shardless, delver, miracles, elves, to name a few just scoop once he is out and goes off (All heavy in meta currently). I do agree the extra show n tell target would increase my 'plan B' chances, but I only show n tell the eldrazi to decks that I know die in 1-2 turns with them and have no way to beat it. My 4 shows are there only for the 4 titans. 1 game had eldrazi show n tell in hand and put eldrazi on top fetched a few times to find the titan. Decks that can deal with big guy out don't help us and their cast trigger is what we want. Tried 3 SnT and felt like I was always searching for it and why I play 4. This is why I don't mind running ugin...I'm always trying to show a titan. I care about the titan land drops to gain control of the game and take it from there.

Trinket mage I haven't tested enough. Chump blocker is nice, but 4 repeals and 2 EE keep the little dudes away early if needed. Also, crop rotate for tabernacle crushes aggro decks early. So never missed a chump blocker. The tutor ability is nice, but its too slow imo. Legacy is just way to fast. I never felt like trinket mage had the power to keep up. Outside of a needle, its hard to play him turn 3/4 and then cast what you want. Sure it gets a candle, but then u get to wait till next turn to use it. At least how I always felt with it...and a lot times that turn never happened. I prefer to sit back and EoT everything or respond to plays they make and set up the titan show or titan cast...I may of played him too early so this could be my fault and don't deny this. I've tried many variations. You have to play what fits you. In general, this is not an aggro deck...we all know this. My point is I feel playing him too quickly gimped me, and not playing him was a dead card in my hand. Ugin can be a dead card...but with 27 lands and 2 candles 1-2 turns is all it takes and dead card is a finishing card. Deck I play forces me to sit back and play more controlling, which is how it's supposed to be played. I find it amazing how one deck can have so many different variations. Why such a fun deck to play. As I re-try other builds, maybe I'll play them more correctly. I don't deny build could be better with trinket mage...I could never get him to work though.

[Lormador]

Trinket is definitely flexibility over power as his 3 mana cost is a gulp.

I do find him subtly useful when it comes to sideboard construction though. Take any given tricky deck to play against and put an artifact into the board for that matchup.... now you needn't board out the Trinkets against that deck. I appreciate him being a Stifle target that tempts the opponent before that killer Titan trigger goes on the stack, but that's a bit daft since I occasionally actually need that Mage trigger to resolve in order to stay alive.

[Zotmaster]

Any advice please hit me up. I need more practice with omnishow...today def helped. 3 grips maybe in the future as well and 4 flusters would of made 6-1 even with bad draws on land match and instant top 8...

Best

Grats on your finish!

One little trick with OmniShow is utilizing triggers to your advantage. If you put in anything with an ETB trigger - Primeval Titan, Venser, Shaper Savant or Thought-Knot Seer to name a few - you end up with priority since you have a trigger. What this means is that you can immediately Krosan Grip your opponent's Omniscience before he or she has a chance to cast anything. The same thing applies with Sneak and Skill: if you have a trigger, you can answer their Sneak Attack before it can be activated.

[MechTactical]

Grats on your finish!

One little trick with OmniShow is utilizing triggers to your advantage. If you put in anything with an ETB trigger - Primeval Titan, Venser, Shaper Savant or Thought-Knot Seer to name a few - you end up with priority since you have a trigger. What this means is that you can immediately Krosan Grip your opponent's Omniscience before he or she has a chance to cast anything. The same thing applies with Sneak and Skill: if you have a trigger, you can answer their Sneak Attack before it can be activated.

I don't like to be the noob, but what kind of trigger did u have in mind for sneak attack? Obviously it would have to be a triggered ability not activated, since the priority never passes to me in the first place? Am i not seeing an elephant hiding in a strawberry bush?

[HomicidalRambo]

Grats on your finish!

One little trick with OmniShow is utilizing triggers to your advantage. If you put in anything with an ETB trigger - Primeval Titan, Venser, Shaper Savant or Thought-Knot Seer to name a few - you end up with priority since you have a trigger. What this means is that you can immediately Krosan Grip your opponent's Omniscience before he or she has a chance to cast anything. The same thing applies with Sneak and Skill: if you have a trigger, you can answer their Sneak Attack before it can be activated.

Great tip. Was unaware of that would of been a 2nd out in the game. I assumed they always had priority, but if I'm only when enter then that makes sense passes to me. So should be solid on match up now. Won't make same misplay twice. Makes Krosen grips that much better against it. More I play and tweak the deck better I get. Appreciate the tip.

[Zotmaster]

I don't like to be the noob, but what kind of trigger did u have in mind for sneak attack? Obviously it would have to be a triggered ability not activated, since the priority never passes to me in the first place? Am i not seeing an elephant hiding in a strawberry bush?

It's for any Show and Tell deck. If you put in something with an ETB trigger - like Venser, Primeval Titan, or Thought-Knot Seer - you end up with priority when your trigger goes on the stack. You can then do something like Krosan Grip a Sneak Attack or Omniscience before your opponent has a chance to active Sneak or cast any spells.

[MechTactical]

It's for any Show and Tell deck. If you put in something with an ETB trigger - like Venser, Primeval Titan, or Thought-Knot Seer - you end up with priority when your trigger goes on the stack. You can then do something like Krosan Grip a Sneak Attack or Omniscience before your opponent has a chance to active Sneak or cast any spells.

Okay, i have to appologize again 4 the noobish question, but are you reffering to the opponent putting in a sneak attack off of his own SnT in an attempt to activate it that turn?

[into_play]

It's for any Show and Tell deck. If you put in something with an ETB trigger - like Venser, Primeval Titan, or Thought-Knot Seer - you end up with priority when your trigger goes on the stack. You can then do something like Krosan Grip a Sneak Attack or Omniscience before your opponent has a chance to active Sneak or cast any spells.

I might be wrong about this, but I think this is incorrect. If your opponent is the active player (it is their turn), then they will have priority and can respond at instant speed to any triggers. So if they cast Show and Tell and put in a Sneak Attack while you put in something with a triggered ability, they can still activate the Sneak Attack before your triggers resolve and before you can cast Grip. But if they make the mistake of passing priority, then you can punish them and Grip their Sneak Attack in response to your triggers :cool:


Whelp played in the Columbus SCG Legacy Classic. Finished 9th 5-2 overall...just missed top 8 was kind of a bummer. Posted week or so ago changes I made from the general core.

My deck list:

Lands (27)
4 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Polluted Delta
3 x Tropical island
1 x Island
1 x Forest
1 x Cavern of Souls
1 x Glacial Chasm
1 x Tabernacle
1 x Bojuka Bog
1 x Karakas
1 x Eye of Ugin
4 x Cloudpost
4 x Glimmerpost
2 x Vesuva

Creatures (7)
1 x Emrakul
1 x New Emrakul
1 x Nulamog
4 x PrimeTime

Spells
4 x SDT
4 x Repeal
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Crop Rotation
4 x Show n Tell
2 x Ugin
2 x EE
2 x Candelabra of Tawnos

SB:
4 x Surgical Extraction
2 x FoW
2 x Flusterstorm
2 x Swag Song (May go to 4 Flusters)
2 x Krosen Grip
2 x Pithing Needle
1 x Nephalia Academy



Congrats on the finish! I like the focused structure of your list; lots of four-ofs plus duplicates of the variable non-creature, non-land inclusions (Ugin, EE, Candles). Like someone before me said, your deck seems all about business.

One thing that I overlooked when I first read your list was the absence of any Expedition Maps. Did you ever miss them at all? I have a love/hate relationship with Map. It always feels clunky and frequently appears to be the weakest card in the deck. But other times, it can guarantee powerful plays without the sacrifice risk of Crop Rotation: either grabbing Cavern and forcing Titan through, or getting Eye to close out the game. You didn't need them to be successful, so maybe I will venture a build without them.

Also, I support your decision to swap Swan Songs with more Flusterstorms, as I've always thought Fluster was the better of the one-mana counters. Song hits a wider variety of threats, but Fluster has a more unique effect and is more effective at its role as a counter. It's difficulty to be countered makes it special, plus it is a trump card against Storm win conditions.

[Skriger]

First off, decent list!
Second, 6 fetches with 5 targets. Really need that much shuffling? Does it seem to help you more than take away from a useable land slot?


Whelp played in the Columbus SCG Legacy Classic. Finished 9th 5-2 overall...just missed top 8 was kind of a bummer. Posted week or so ago changes I made from the general core.

My deck list:

Lands (27)
4 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Polluted Delta
3 x Tropical island
1 x Island
1 x Forest
1 x Cavern of Souls
1 x Glacial Chasm
1 x Tabernacle
1 x Bojuka Bog
1 x Karakas
1 x Eye of Ugin
4 x Cloudpost
4 x Glimmerpost
2 x Vesuva

ETC......

[Skriger]

I might be wrong about this, but I think this is incorrect. If your opponent is the active player (it is their turn), then they will have priority and can respond at instant speed to any triggers. So if they cast Show and Tell and put in a Sneak Attack while you put in something with a triggered ability, they can still activate the Sneak Attack before your triggers resolve and before you can cast Grip. But if they make the mistake of passing priority, then you can punish them and Grip their Sneak Attack in response to your triggers :cool:

I think you guys are forgetting the reason why you use Krosan Grip. It has Split Second so Sneak Attack activation and Omniscience ability doesn't work as long as Krosan Grip is in the stack. This is the other reason I like using Trickbind against Sneak Attack, locks out that activation ability for that turn. All of this would be correct if you were using something like Stifle or Disenchant. The priority would be passed to them and they can respond.

[Lormador]

I think you guys are forgetting the reason why you use Krosan Grip. It has Split Second so Sneak Attack activation and Omniscience ability doesn't work as long as Krosan Grip is in the stack. This is the other reason I like using Trickbind against Sneak Attack, locks out that activation ability for that turn. All of this would be correct if you were using something like Stifle or Disenchant. The priority would be passed to them and they can respond.

Actually I think the original poster was correct in this case. We're talking specifically about the line Show and Tell --> Sneak Attack, activate (against K-grip).

In this situation the caster of Show and Tell is indeed the active player and is free to put abilities and spells on to the stack. It's similar to Dredge flipping Narcomeba and Cabal Therapy off of a Careful Study, and despite my having Swords to Plowshares in hand there's no chance to get rid of the Narco before it gets sacrificed to the Therapy if my opponent does the priority thing correctly.

The one trick I picked up from reading this mammoth thread was putting in a Glimmerpost (or Titan, or even Bojuka Bog) off of the SnT. This puts a trigger on the stack right off, and if I say "Glimmerpost Trigger" and opponent responds "OK" I get to answer "Krosan Grip on your Sneak Attack." This won't get the best players, but it might help in the Swiss.

It's absolutely effective against Omniscience + Emrakul/Enter the Infinite, giving us a chance to cast K-grip without the opponent getting priority with an empty stack during a main phase.

[Rock Lee]

Went undefeated at my weekly legacy event with a variant of the 9th place Classic list from last week using this list:

// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [R] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
2 [ST] Island (1)
4 [A] Tropical Island
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [EMN] Nephalia Academy

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [EMN] Emrakul, the Promised End
1 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [DDN] Repeal
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [MMA] Faerie Macabre


I miss having 4 show and tell, and the return to it feels extremely strong. I maindecked the neph academy since I loath rng hymns and the top-synergy is paramount. Neph academy means counters are worth holding onto again instead of hiding and then only having one answer or getting blown out by random split second cards. All in all, the deck felt extremely solid with this build. Much harder to play since needle and map are huge crutches and with good reason, but can be played around with optimal play, which this build requires.

[Zotmaster]

I might be wrong about this, but I think this is incorrect. If your opponent is the active player (it is their turn), then they will have priority and can respond at instant speed to any triggers. So if they cast Show and Tell and put in a Sneak Attack while you put in something with a triggered ability, they can still activate the Sneak Attack before your triggers resolve and before you can cast Grip. But if they make the mistake of passing priority, then you can punish them and Grip their Sneak Attack in response to your triggers :cool:

Negative, my friend. You do get priority. The nonactive player gets priority whenever they have a spell or ability on the stack - including these ETB triggers I'm talking about - when the active player attempts to change the step, or when the opponent passes priority. This is why triggers are so vitally important against Show and Tell decks: especially against Omni, where otherwise they could just Cunning Wish for something like Trickbind. This way you don't have to worry about your opponent making a mistake: you can just pre-emptively take care of the problematic card.

[into_play]

Negative, my friend. You do get priority. The nonactive player gets priority whenever they have a spell or ability on the stack - including these ETB triggers I'm talking about - when the active player attempts to change the step, or when the opponent passes priority. This is why triggers are so vitally important against Show and Tell decks: especially against Omni, where otherwise they could just Cunning Wish for something like Trickbind. This way you don't have to worry about your opponent making a mistake: you can just pre-emptively take care of the problematic card.

Well, I never knew that your own triggers would give you priority. For some reason I thought that the player whose turn it is always got priority. I feel dumb for the noobish understanding, but am much happier that the rules work out in our favor. Thanks for the clarification!

[somethingdotdotdot]

Negative, my friend. You do get priority. The nonactive player gets priority whenever they have a spell or ability on the stack - including these ETB triggers I'm talking about - when the active player attempts to change the step, or when the opponent passes priority. This is why triggers are so vitally important against Show and Tell decks: especially against Omni, where otherwise they could just Cunning Wish for something like Trickbind. This way you don't have to worry about your opponent making a mistake: you can just pre-emptively take care of the problematic card.

I believe the active player gets priority before you even if you put a trigger on the stack.

116.2a Triggered abilities can trigger at any time, including while a spell is being cast, an ability is being activated, or a spell or ability is resolving. (See rule 603, “Handling Triggered Abilities.”) However, nothing actually happens at the time an ability triggers. Each time a player would receive priority, each ability that has triggered but hasn’t yet been put on the stack is put on the stack. See rule 116.5.

This basically says that triggered abilities do not affect who receives priority. Rather, triggered abilities go onto the stack based on APNAP the next a player would receive priority.

Since the active player just finished casting the show and tell, he would receive priority based on:
116.3b The active player receives priority after a spell or ability (other than a mana ability) resolves.

Basically, this means that if the active player casts show and tell, puts in a sneak attack and you put in a glimmerpost (or other etb permanent), they get priority. In the process of getting priority, your glimmerpost trigger goes onto the stack. If they let you resolve the glimmerpost trigger, they implicitly pass priority and you have a chance to get them; otherwise, they can put a sneak trigger on the stack then pass priority.

[k_omega]

I believe the active player gets priority before you even if you put a trigger on the stack.
...
Basically, this means that if the active player casts show and tell, puts in a sneak attack and you put in a glimmerpost (or other etb permanent), they get priority. In the process of getting priority, your glimmerpost trigger goes onto the stack. If they let you resolve the glimmerpost trigger, they implicitly pass priority and you have a chance to get them; otherwise, they can put a sneak trigger on the stack then pass priority.

This is what a both an OmniTell player and a judge explained to me in a match against that deck.

[Mr Miagi]

I'm always surprised how bad legacy players are sometimes at understanding the rules, especially trigers and priorities, If an oponent casts show and tell and you put glimmerpost on the battlefield and they put a permanent they retain the piority and it's their choice if they will pass the priority and let you resolve your trigger or they will continue casting spells, activating abilities at instant speed ofcourse (sorcery spead would mean they would need to pass the priority) untill they finally pass the priority. So they could drop sneak attack off show and tell, you drop glimmerpost, your trigger goes on stack but you don't get priority and they Will have to eaither let your triger resolve by passing the priority (thereby endagering potnetially getting gripped) or they could chose to add (not resolve!) to the stack variety of instants/activated abilites (or trigered abilities inbetwen if they manage it somehow). Resolving these spells, activated/triggered abilites would then requiere passing priorities between each party. Once both parties pass priority without additional action inbetween the spell/ability will resolve.

:wink:

[TheCorgiKing]

Hello again everyone

I wanted to share my super test-stage GR list along with some of my notes that I've been playing around with. This has mostly been just a thought project between my buddy and I to force a bunch of mechanics into 12post and abuse new Emrakul... it needs a lot of tweaking but we're getting together tomorrow to play around with it

As a disclaimer, neither of us are super great at brewing competitively

Lands (26):
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Taiga
2 Grove of the Burnwillows (if these both come out, Glacial Chasm/4th Foothills or 2 Maze of Ith)
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Forest
1 Mountain

Creatures (11):
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Mina and Denn, Wildborn
4 Primeval Titan
3 Thought-Knot Seer (might drop all 3)

Spells (19):
4 Crop Rotation
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Ancient Stirring (4 if Oath is dropped)
2 Oath of Nissa
3 Stranglehold (these become 3 Ugin's Nexus if Oath is dropped)
2 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Punishing Fire (drop w/Grove for 2 GSZ)

Artifacts (5):
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Expedition Map

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Notes:

So as it stands right now, the deck is 63 cards.

I really want to run TKS, but wanting to do something and having it actually be a good decision aren't always the same thing, that immediately gets the deck to 60

The biggest change that I think can be made right off the bat is dropping the Grove of the Burnwillows/Punishing Fire combo. I honestly don't know how powerful this combo is in Legacy; I haven't seen it much myself but I know it exists and since the colors are GR, I wanted to try it out. If those 6 cards come out, I would add a 4th Fetch and Chasm along with 2 GSZ leaving space for 2 more cards in the deck

The second major-ish switcheroo could be dropping 2 Oath of Nissa and turning them into 2 Ancient Stirrings, then dropping Stranglehold for Ugin's Nexus.
A few things with this: I like Oath of Nissa as an easy dump into making Emmy smaller (currently running 6 card types + Eye of Ugin), it also fetches up creatures, lands and Ugin
However: It doesn't grab the vital combo piece needed to make Emrakul more fun, Stranglehold. Ancient Stirrings on the other hand, can grab Ugin's Nexus which effectively does the same thing, but is now semi-tutorable thanks to being colorless.

Bonfire of the Damned isn't a totally necessary card, but at times it could potentially just be game with Candelabra in play

I realize I'm trying to do a lot with the deck, so I would appreciate your guys' input on trimming some fat. Maybe this won't be Top 8ing any major tournaments, but in my opinion it has potential to be a lot of fun, and I know GR is something this group has been kicking around for a few months.

[Rock Lee]

I'm always surprised how bad legacy players are sometimes at understanding the rules, especially trigers and priorities, If an oponent casts show and tell and you put glimmerpost on the battlefield and they put a permanent they retain the piority and it's their choice if they will pass the priority and let you resolve your trigger or they will continue casting spells, activating abilities at instant speed ofcourse (sorcery spead would mean they would need to pass the priority) untill they finally pass the priority. So they could drop sneak attack off show and tell, you drop glimmerpost, your trigger goes on stack but you don't get priority and they Will have to eaither let your triger resolve by passing the priority (thereby endagering potnetially getting gripped) or they could chose to add (not resolve!) to the stack variety of instants/activated abilites (or trigered abilities inbetwen if they manage it somehow). Resolving these spells, activated/triggered abilites would then requiere passing priorities between each party. Once both parties pass priority without additional action inbetween the spell/ability will resolve.

:wink:

No need for a paragraph. Just reference 601.2h "Once the steps described in 601.2a–g are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spell’s controller had priority before casting it, he or she gets priority."

Further explained, in 116.3c "If a player has priority when he or she casts a spell, activates an ability, or takes a special action, that player receives priority afterward."

Mr Miagi, I think you are missing the point, which is that if you cast a spell or activate an ability and you are not the active player, you have priority before your opponent (the active player). It is this opportunity which people were trying to use triggers to maintain priority for Krosan grip with a glimmerpost/titan after a show and tell'd omniscience. This sadly does not work, except to prevent sorcery affects, which was already mentioned multiple times. Running in here insulting people and then being oblivious of the argument only exhibits your ignorance.

[Zotmaster]

I apologize for the bad information. I asked two different judges in my LGS, both of whom told me that you could Grip first. I then posted about it. After seeing replies here, I then went to magicjudges.org, who have confirmed it does not, in fact, work the way I thought. Again, sorry about that.

[maCHOOga]

As of right now, I have 1 board slot in my lastest development build of Gw.

Someone suggested I try 1 splendid reclaimation to hedge again Wastelands. I'm really on the fence about it. I could contemplate trying it, but I'm not even sure if it's worth it even with 4 fetches/crop rotations. Has anyone tried using this new card yet?

[Rock Lee]

As of right now, I have 1 board slot in my lastest development build of Gw.

Someone suggested I try 1 splendid reclaimation to hedge again Wastelands. I'm really on the fence about it. I could contemplate trying it, but I'm not even sure if it's worth it even with 4 fetches/crop rotations. Has anyone tried using this new card yet?

I'd have to see the build to give an informed decision.

I like Splendid Reclamation for non-blue variants though, but with some form of above outside of "land destruction counter" ala zuran orb/claws of gix/harrow type affects

[MechTactical]

I apologize for the bad information. I asked two different judges in my LGS, both of whom told me that you could Grip first. I then posted about it. After seeing replies here, I then went to magicjudges.org, who have confirmed it does not, in fact, work the way I thought. Again, sorry about that.

I want to thank you. At least now we know what the f*** is going on :laugh:

[mykatdied]

Last night my fiance ran the gw post list just with a few edits. Still missing new emrakul, but we added grapple with the past over explore and it was an amazing addition. Also added 2 Splendid Reclamation to the board. She used it against esper deathblade and it was amazing for her between wastelands firing off, liliana ticking up she was able to get a ton of value from it. She was 6-0 in games until infect, which is a tough match up anyway and he had close to perfect draws and disruption. Grapple and splendid reclamation are definitely amazing, we can't wait to test new emrakul though!

[maCHOOga]

Last night my fiance ran the gw post list just with a few edits. Still missing new emrakul, but we added grapple with the past over explore and it was an amazing addition. Also added 2 Splendid Reclamation to the board. She used it against esper deathblade and it was amazing for her between wastelands firing off, liliana ticking up she was able to get a ton of value from it. She was 6-0 in games until infect, which is a tough match up anyway and he had close to perfect draws and disruption. Grapple and splendid reclamation are definitely amazing, we can't wait to test new emrakul though!

I was contemplating with Grapples this week. How many were you playing? I think I could easily support two. My two flex slots currently have 1 Courser of Kruphix* and 1 Candelbra.
*I'm still not 100% sure how easily I can support "GG" with the manabase.

Running two could make for an easy swap in/out my two sideboard rest in peace.

[HomicidalRambo]

I might be wrong about this, but I think this is incorrect. If your opponent is the active player (it is their turn), then they will have priority and can respond at instant speed to any triggers. So if they cast Show and Tell and put in a Sneak Attack while you put in something with a triggered ability, they can still activate the Sneak Attack before your triggers resolve and before you can cast Grip. But if they make the mistake of passing priority, then you can punish them and Grip their Sneak Attack in response to your triggers :cool:




One thing that I overlooked when I first read your list was the absence of any Expedition Maps. Did you ever miss them at all? I have a love/hate relationship with Map. It always feels clunky and frequently appears to be the weakest card in the deck. But other times, it can guarantee powerful plays without the sacrifice risk of Crop Rotation: either grabbing Cavern and forcing Titan through, or getting Eye to close out the game. You didn't need them to be successful, so maybe I will venture a build without them.


Never missed the maps. Haven't tested them for over 3-4 months now, it was my 1st card I dropped from the core list. They are so darn slow and clunky imo for U/G build play style. Mono green or colorless they are a must imo since a more aggro style deck. If running 25-26 lands, I would use them most likely and this is usually with trinket type builds. And abrupt decay is a thing...Outside of candle and EE. Nothing in my deck list to decay which I loved. Map was always a target in tourneys before and really never got much benefit from it anyway. Now for decks with MB decay its 4 dead cards in their deck for them...and most won't SB out since think so many targets for it. Usually candles out SB too for me, so 4 cards for 2 EE that I play and blow instant with priority. So 4 dead cards...

The needles are good...but main reason in was for wastelands. With 27-28 lands MB and 4 crop rotations...I actually hope they play it. Crop in response best play, but laying another land next turn while they slowed themselves a turn I'm always fine with. With that said, you need to protect your posts much more as Rock stated a bit, you have to play the deck little different. EoT or during their turn, I felt I almost always had a play. Cropped for tabby, nephelia, CoS, bog like 3 times, and once for chasm or be dead. Map for 3 total, and then land to go to our hand and still need to play it, just too slow I feel for legacy. Also, your opponent sees it. They know another post or CoS or whatever could be cmon. Good legacy players know deck your playing almost as well as you...Why I love crop rotation...if they don't know my hand, element of surprise and easier to set them into a play they shouldn't of made. Getting lands was never an issue minus my one game where I couldn't buy a land to start in my hand...and when did drew the 2 vesuva (i cut down from 3 to avoid this lol). That is just bad variance, and can't get around that. Just make better with more consistency...Grapple with the past seems decent as replacement. Increase consistency...get lands back from wastelands or just get fetch back to keep spinning top. Curious anyones thoughts on it that has played it. I haven't tested it at all.

Needles I put in SB, card is a house for so many decks to slow them the few turns we need. It was SB due to the fact if I played it, it never was for wasteland as 1st target (Opposite of them MB from other builds)...just inkmoths, thespian stage, walkers, etc. Vials were always a nice needle name...but the gold star card for me "repeal" just crushes decks with it. Ports without vials just aren't that great, and you can get above their land count and take over with ease usually. So needle didn't hurt there either. Wasteland decks with graveyard recursion...have the needles, but I bring in surg extractions as well and just eliminate it. Considered removing them completely from SB with deck like Rock just didn't recently. 4 flusters and maybe 3 grips for omni and miracles seems quite good...

[HomicidalRambo]

error...

[HomicidalRambo]

Sorry to make 2 pages on this from my omni question since needed help with deck. With omni show...he plays SnT. He lays omni and I lay glimmer, bog or titan. He has priority since active player and no EBT but I have EBT. He can only play instants before my trigger or respond to my trigger on the stack. So he can play something from sneak attack since he has priority if free red mana. If not my trigger would be on stack next so priority passes to me. I then can leave it on the stack and cast grip on a target of my choice. Is this correct?

[HomicidalRambo]

First off, decent list!
Second, 6 fetches with 5 targets. Really need that much shuffling? Does it seem to help you more than take away from a useable land slot?

I was trying to make deck more consistent and with taking the maps out increasing my shuffling effects. May go to 5...then add in 4th trop or take the neph from SB and play MB. Maybe 1 too many...Once in all the games had a delta and no target...so down to 5 where it needs to be. My issues before were not getting the colored mana...its more important than colorless for deck. Gonna try it with 5, won't go any lower than that.

[Lormador]

I personally don't see how it's possible to get on without Maps, I find them essential for tutoring up exactly Cavern of Souls for Prime Time. It's got other uses, sure, but this is the one I can't live without.

Isn't this common sequence appealing?
T1: colored source, cast whatever 1 mana thing
T2: Cloudpost, pass with Crop Rotation up against Wasteland or Top mana or whatever
T3: Cloudpost, Map + crack it for Cavern of Souls
T4: uncounterable Titan
T5: Profit

It seems like every Tom, Dick, and Harry is trying to race me with something while holding up Force/Daze for my Titan... I'd often lose to this line if not for Cavern.

[TheBoozeCube]

Also, sneaking a T1 Map under Counterbalance is almost GG vs Miracles. Outside of crazy Mentor nut draws, pretty the only times I've ever lost to Miracles is from flooding out. T1 Map means guaranteed Eye of Ugin, which means a win 95% of the time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mykatdied]

I was contemplating with Grapples this week. How many were you playing? I think I could easily support two. My two flex slots currently have 1 Courser of Kruphix* and 1 Candelbra.
*I'm still not 100% sure how easily I can support "GG" with the manabase.

Running two could make for an easy swap in/out my two sideboard rest in peace.

Grapple was a 4 of in this list and honestly she loved it every time she cast it. She actually attacked into lands with Marit Lage which blocked killing emrakul. Wiped most of the board and used grapple in response to shuffle trigger to return emrakul and recast resulting in a concession. So far grapple has more than produced. The fact that it can also fizzle a surgical extraction on cloudpost or fizzle a deathrite activation can be relevant. There will be more testing this Saturday in the legacy side event at gp montreal. I will update on how it goes.

[Neko448]

I personally don't see how it's possible to get on without Maps, I find them essential for tutoring up exactly Cavern of Souls for Prime Time. It's got other uses, sure, but this is the one I can't live without.

Isn't this common sequence appealing?
T1: colored source, cast whatever 1 mana thing
T2: Cloudpost, pass with Crop Rotation up against Wasteland or Top mana or whatever
T3: Cloudpost, Map + crack it for Cavern of Souls
T4: uncounterable Titan
T5: Profit

It seems like every Tom, Dick, and Harry is trying to race me with something while holding up Force/Daze for my Titan... I'd often lose to this line if not for Cavern.


What about the part where they waste you on turn 3? Can't we just Crop for Cavern? Expedition map is good, but it's a crutch

[Skriger]

I'm going to have to agree about keeping Map. Without a decent Land tutor, relying on only 4 Crops to carry your hand is not a good choice in my book. This deck relies too much on the utilitarian purposes of its' lands and removing the ability to pull such lands really hurts the deck more than anything. Especially in the U/G build. Mono G can run other pieces to digs up lands but not really the case with U/G builds which rely on brainstorm/fetch/Top routine to keep things in order.

A while back when we were playing with the Terminus idea in a Bant build (which still I enjoy). I was contemplating using Enlightened Tutor over Trinket Mage. This allowed me to top deck Platinum Emperion or leylines if I didn't get them in the draw and if I did not have Eye of Ugin to tutor. Throwing 2-4 Enlightened Tutors into a build feels interesting to me, gives you shuffling to re-organize on top of fetches works well with brainstorm and top, allows you to pull a lot of other pieces like Needle or a map to speed things along. Only issue is top decking and not to hand, unless you have a top on the board.

Here is the list i'm thinking of:

- LAND (25)
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Cloudpost
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Forest
4x Glimmerpost
1x Island
1x Karakas
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
1x Savannah
3x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
2x Vesuva
2x Windswept Heath

- Artifact (10)
1x Candelabra of Tawnos
3x Expedition Map
2x Pithing Needle
4x Sensei's Divining Top

- Creature (7)
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Primeval Titan
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1x World Breaker

- Instant (12)
4x Brainstorm
4x Crop Rotation
2x Warping Wail
2x Enlightened Tutor

- Sorcery (6)
3x Show and Tell
3x Terminus


- Sideboard (15)
1x Bojuka Bog
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Show and Tell
3x Flusterstorm
1x Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Surgical Extraction
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

[Leshrac82]

I have some thoughts on different sideboard options for my build:

1. I played 3 Leyline of Sanctity for a while now. They are great against Storm, probably the best Sideboard card for this matchup alone. Otherwise they are good against Burn and some fringe combo decks, but against the discard decks where i originally wanted them as additional defense i stopped boarding them in, because they are really bad topdecks. And against other more common combo decks they don't do anything. So i'm looking for alternatives that are decent against Storm and have some other applications.

Mindbreak Trap seems to have the same problem, good against Storm, but not that many other applications. I'd rather keep the Leylines.
Sphere of Resistance seems to have the most applications, against every combo deck and probably also against Delver. But i'm sceptical if it's good enough, i don't like tapping out even on Turn 2 against most combo decks. Still, it's probably a decent option.
Thoughtseize. I always dismissed that option with my very light black splash, but with some juggling around i could get to up to 10 untapped black mana sources. This is probably good against every combo deck, tapping out on Turn 1 is also fine. The only issue is the mana. I could play it with just 9 black untapped sources, but i think that's not enough. To get to 10 sources i have to cut the Veteran Explorer and replace one Forest with a 2nd Bayou (and i also have to play 3 Mox Diamonds, but i wasn't happy with just 2 anyway, to cut the third one was a mistake) - that could be fine, Explorer gets boarded out a lot, but it is a cost.

For now i'm trying out the Thoughtseize, so far the mana wasn't an issue, and i haven't really missed the Explorer either.

2. Against Delver, i'm playing with the idea try to go for mana denial a little more. Elephant Grass is ok, i tested that before, it has just the weakness that it's really bad against Chalice, and so pretty useless against Eldrazi. I'm playing white, so is Ghostly Prison a viable option? I'm trying this now, but i'm sceptical. Has anybody with a white splash ever tested that card?
Also, going with the mana denial, Choke is another option against Delver that's probably good against Miracles too.
I'm pretty sure if i wasn't playing on xmage, but on Magic Online instead, i would put at least 1 Choke in the board. On xmage the meta is different, and i don't think there are many other decks where i want Choke, but i still want to test it and see how good it really is against those decks. (Limited testing so far: Whenever i put it into play, it won me the game almost immediately.)

[Hencules]

I have some thoughts on different sideboard options for my build:

1. I played 3 Leyline of Sanctity for a while now. They are great against Storm, probably the best Sideboard card for this matchup alone. Otherwise they are good against Burn and some fringe combo decks, but against the discard decks where i originally wanted them as additional defense i stopped boarding them in, because they are really bad topdecks. And against other more common combo decks they don't do anything. So i'm looking for alternatives that are decent against Storm and have some other applications.

Mindbreak Trap seems to have the same problem, good against Storm, but not that many other applications. I'd rather keep the Leylines.
Sphere of Resistance seems to have the most applications, against every combo deck and probably also against Delver. But i'm sceptical if it's good enough, i don't like tapping out even on Turn 2 against most combo decks. Still, it's probably a decent option.
Thoughtseize. I always dismissed that option with my very light black splash, but with some juggling around i could get to up to 10 untapped black mana sources. This is probably good against every combo deck, tapping out on Turn 1 is also fine. The only issue is the mana. I could play it with just 9 black untapped sources, but i think that's not enough. To get to 10 sources i have to cut the Veteran Explorer and replace one Forest with a 2nd Bayou (and i also have to play 3 Mox Diamonds, but i wasn't happy with just 2 anyway, to cut the third one was a mistake) - that could be fine, Explorer gets boarded out a lot, but it is a cost.

For now i'm trying out the Thoughtseize, so far the mana wasn't an issue, and i haven't really missed the Explorer either.

2. Against Delver, i'm playing with the idea try to go for mana denial a little more. Elephant Grass is ok, i tested that before, it has just the weakness that it's really bad against Chalice, and so pretty useless against Eldrazi. I'm playing white, so is Ghostly Prison a viable option? I'm trying this now, but i'm sceptical. Has anybody with a white splash ever tested that card?
Also, going with the mana denial, Choke is another option against Delver that's probably good against Miracles too.
I'm pretty sure if i wasn't playing on xmage, but on Magic Online instead, i would put at least 1 Choke in the board. On xmage the meta is different, and i don't think there are many other decks where i want Choke, but i still want to test it and see how good it really is against those decks. (Limited testing so far: Whenever i put it into play, it won me the game almost immediately.)

I think you shouldn't play ghostly prison, which is probably too little too late. For just a single mana more you have moat which does way more. The problem with hosing cards that drop after turn one/two is that it's most likely to be removed by thought knot seer. To me at least, eldrazi is a real beating...

About leyline, I just love it. It is a terrible top deck, but I feel it hoses several decks so much is worth it. Combined with surgical extraction, crop Rotation and bojuka Bog you really can fight quite a few Combo decks. I have included a third mox to, I kind of sort of acts like your brainstorm. It fixes hands by exchanging the lands you need late game for early game mana.

On another note, I learned that against decks that could possibly board in an ensnaring bridge you should never take out Ulamog... Got surprise wrecked in game 3 against burn...

[TheBoozeCube]

Sphere of Resistance seems to have the most applications, against every combo deck and probably also against Delver. But i'm sceptical if it's good enough, i don't like tapping out even on Turn 2 against most combo decks. Still, it's probably a decent option.


I've been playing 4x Spheres for a while. It's a must-answer for so many combo decks. Tapping out T2 is usually fine because Sphere should prevent them from going off the next turn anyway. It's also especially good to drop off of S&T vs Omni. It's also very good at slowing down Elves and Burn to give you a chance to stabilize. It's not terrible vs Infect either, as it can prevent them from going too crazy with pump spells, although it rarely buys you more than an extra turn or two.

It's not actually that great vs most Delver (3Sphere is much better there). It's decent vs more Pyro-centric builds, but just a speed bump.

In Cg at least, it's indispensable to fight combo, as our only other tools are Wail and Crop. It seems like it'd be strong in Gw too, especially if you can curve with Enlightened Tutor for it on T1.

[Leshrac82]

I think you shouldn't play ghostly prison, which is probably too little too late. For just a single mana more you have moat which does way more. The problem with hosing cards that drop after turn one/two is that it's most likely to be removed by thought knot seer. To me at least, eldrazi is a real beating...

About leyline, I just love it. It is a terrible top deck, but I feel it hoses several decks so much is worth it. Combined with surgical extraction, crop Rotation and bojuka Bog you really can fight quite a few Combo decks. I have included a third mox to, I kind of sort of acts like your brainstorm. It fixes hands by exchanging the lands you need late game for early game mana.

On another note, I learned that against decks that could possibly board in an ensnaring bridge you should never take out Ulamog... Got surprise wrecked in game 3 against burn...

Yes, i can see the problem with Ghostly Prison. It did some work yesterday, but other options are probably better.

I think Eldrazi is generally a solid matchup. Some draws are hard to beat, but most of the time i can stabilize at some point. Ensnaring Bridge is the best sideboard card for that matchup - the risk with Thought-Knot remains, but otherwise most lists don't have a very efficient answer. This is usually the best matchup for Veteran Explorer, so cutting it might be a problem here. In the last few days i encountered a lot more Eldrazi lists splashing white for Displacer. That card is a problem, usually i can stop their offense with a Knight or Tracker to block, that doesn't work against that - it also shuts down the option to win with Marit Lage and makes Titania a lot worse, you basically have to go for your own Eldrazi to beat this.

I am happy with Leyline in the matchups where it comes in, but there are a lot of combo decks where it's just useless, that's why i'm thinking about something that's good in more matchups. It does nothing against Show&Tell, Reanimator, Infect, Elves and many more combo decks. Elves is a very good matchup imo, for Reanimator we have enough tools too, but against Show&Tell and Infect i wouldn't mind some more sideboard cards.
Right now i wouldn't recommend anything else over Leyline, but i still want to see how good the other options are, in the matchups where Leyline does nothing and in the matchups where Leyline is good.

The 3rd Mox seems to be necessary - i played it for the most time, and cutting it was clearly a mistake.

Against Burn i board in RecSage and Krosan Grip, that can deal with a Bridge and otherwise there are some other targets (Eidolon, Sulfuric Vortex). I'm not sure if Ulamog would be the best option here, you probably don't get the time to go for that.


I've been playing 4x Spheres for a while. It's a must-answer for so many combo decks. Tapping out T2 is usually fine because Sphere should prevent them from going off the next turn anyway. It's also especially good to drop off of S&T vs Omni. It's also very good at slowing down Elves and Burn to give you a chance to stabilize. It's not terrible vs Infect either, as it can prevent them from going too crazy with pump spells, although it rarely buys you more than an extra turn or two.

It's not actually that great vs most Delver (3Sphere is much better there). It's decent vs more Pyro-centric builds, but just a speed bump.

In Cg at least, it's indispensable to fight combo, as our only other tools are Wail and Crop. It seems like it'd be strong in Gw too, especially if you can curve with Enlightened Tutor for it on T1.

Well, i don't play Enlightened Tutor, so i don't have that option.
The biggest problem i have with Sphere is that they probably expect something like that. With Leyline, i got an immediate concession out of Storm a few times, because they didn't board in their answers. But every combo deck has answers to Sphere because they need answers to Chalice, and from my experience they always board it in.

If Thoughtseize doesn't do enough or the mana issues are too big, i will probably give Sphere a try.

[Rock Lee]

Sorry to make 2 pages on this from my omni question since needed help with deck. With omni show...he plays SnT. He lays omni and I lay glimmer, bog or titan. He has priority since active player and no EBT but I have EBT. He can only play instants before my trigger or respond to my trigger on the stack. So he can play something from sneak attack since he has priority if free red mana. If not my trigger would be on stack next so priority passes to me. I then can leave it on the stack and cast grip on a target of my choice. Is this correct?

Yes. Also if he activates sneak attack, you then get priority again before your trigger resolves. Not since the times of dig through time do omni players respond to their own instants in omni anymore, so at best they get one instant off.

[cwcomposer]

If funds were not a consideration (they are... I'm just daydreaming a little), how many Candelabras would mono-green run?

[Pdingo]

@cwcomposer
Well the perfect Number is 3;)
Candelabra is a lot more powerfull in Monogreen but you don't want 4 in the build. I heard some people like 4 but i think it's too much. 3 is not too much and not to less..
If you draw them mutliple in some situation they can be pretty bad.
But yeah you can test them of course.

[Lormador]

(considering T1: colored source, cast whatever 1 mana thing
T2: Cloudpost, pass with Crop Rotation up against Wasteland or Top mana or whatever
T3: Cloudpost, Map + crack it for Cavern of Souls
T4: uncounterable Titan
T5: Profit)

What about the part where they waste you on turn 3? Can't we just Crop for Cavern? Expedition map is good, but it's a crutch

Against Wasteland I'd leave open the colored source at all times, assuming I have Crop Rotation, and plan to drop the Titan on T5 instead of T4. We all know this is a combo-control deck, it's important to play around and through the opponent's moves and possibilities. Forgive me for saying so, but I think you're denigrating a strong card and key player in the deck for a very long time as a "crutch" without even responding to the reasoning behind playing this card, which is the following.

1. A whole lot of Legacy plays Force of Will, even more than Wasteland.
2. Ramp decks tend to lose to counterspells when the thing they're ramping into can get countered.
3. While Cloudpost is an incredibly compact and efficient ramp strategy, the best in the game, that's still one way to characterize it.
4. Reliably making Primeval Titan uncounterable is excellent because resolving this key spell tends to win the game.
5. Expedition Map is the most efficient way to make Prime Time uncounterable (because it doesn't cost a land drop).

For me, this line of uncounterable Prime Times is very attractive, but Expedition Map offers huge gobs of flexibility even on top of this. It's the 2nd most efficient way to play Glacial Chasm (after Prime Time search trigger). It finds Karakas. It can get Cloudposts if that's what I really need, or Vesuvas to copy ETB trigger on Bog, or my Tabernacle. If I have mana for days but I'm hurting for a win con, it's a gamewinning topdeck.

I needed a 5 item chart and a paragraph to explain the awesome things Expedition Map does. I think that if this card didn't exist and were spoiled today, we would all go completely gaga and waste 5 pages of the thread posting memes about how perfect it was. I also think calling cards "crutches" is, in general, disingenuous. The questions are always what effect(s) a card brings to the deck, whether the deck needs that number of the effect(s), and whether it does the effect(s) efficiently enough. Obviously Post wants land tutors, so (1) is satisfied. Many people play with 7-8 of these, including those with the best past results, so (2) is satisfied. You might take issue with the efficiency of the Map, that is (3), but if we're only down to this aspect of a card I don't think it's possible to reach the judgment that the card is a crutch.

[Rock Lee]

Said a ton of pro expedition map things.

I agree with all the benefits you listed, but you forgot the two glaring weaknesses. You buckle even harder to chalice @ 1, and null rod further destroys you. Null rod is run by Grixis, Bug, and Eldrazi Aggro. And Chalice @ 1 also played by Eldrazi aggro amongst other decks.

Since playing the 0-map build recently, I've found myself against null rod and barely flinching, due to show and tell x4 making unwinnable games easy.

[ParkerLewis]

Hi,

I would very much like to playtest this. Could someone point me to a current stock / consensual list for this deck ?

Thanks

[Hencules]

Hi,

I would very much like to playtest this. Could someone point me to a current stock / consensual list for this deck ?

Thanks

That's a tough question :). Basically there's a bunch of "stock lists", all of which are highly configurable (which is one of the large attractions to this deck). The deck has several common configurations. The most consistent one is U/G which features blue for Brainstorm, Show and Tell, some utility and great sideboarding. Mono G often plays Green Sun's Zenith + some bullets for diversity and there's the "CG version" (Colorless Green) which is heavily invested in Candelabra's and colorless spells to ramp. Currently I'm playing the list of Leshrac82, a more Toolbox/twelve post hybrid with a lot of versatility.

Basically all versions have merrit. Look for lists here in this forum or on mtgtop8.com.

Welcome :)

[HomicidalRambo]

I agree with all the benefits you listed, but you forgot the two glaring weaknesses. You buckle even harder to chalice @ 1, and null rod further destroys you. Null rod is run by Grixis, Bug, and Eldrazi Aggro. And Chalice @ 1 also played by Eldrazi aggro amongst other decks.

Since playing the 0-map build recently, I've found myself against null rod and barely flinching, due to show and tell x4 making unwinnable games easy.

Chalice and abrupt decay are real and played in a lot of decks...main reason I took them out. Null rod is bad and I hope they SB them in for more dead cards in their deck...I agree with the 5 turns listed by the previous person. That would be a great hand and work great. But for those land drops to be in hand and nothing to hinder your cards for 3 turns...I found it to not be very high statistically. Also, I don't like not having cards to hinder the other person, why I play 4 repeals, 2 EE, and crops even for instant speed lands while abilities on the stack. I never said maps are bad...I'm just saying I felt they are weaker currently in our meta. Also, I really like EE MB. Chalice has almost doubled in price from a year ago...they are heavily played. Why I wanted less '1' in my deck and a way to deal with them. Only card that can be targeted by it is candle for me and only 2 in the deck. SDT doesn't mind it at all. Very low chance to blow it up, and if I am it's because I don't have multiple posts out and not a huge help.

Maps are great...if you run them you are running a more ramp version of the deck and nothing wrong with that. It plays different and has been used for awhile. My build as rock sees is a more combo control build that is totally built around Show n tells. Maps are great, just a different strategy with the deck. I just feel with the current meta they can be targeted easily. Not right or wrong saying you must or must not play them. All depends on how you want to play the deck...

[cwcomposer]

I agree with the 5 turns listed by the previous person. That would be a great hand and work great. But for those land drops to be in hand and nothing to hinder your cards for 3 turns... I found it to not be very high statistically.

I've goldfished my mono-green list a ton and I've noticed that the deck has the widest margin of difference between goldfishing and playing against an actual opponent. Nothing ever plays out in reality the way it does sitting by yourself at the kitchen table.

[Lormador]

Well, going to 4 Show and Tell certainly makes for an interesting deck idea that goes right over Chalice, and I certainly would like to have a stronger matchup against the "other" Eldrazi deck. It's also a pretty heavy handed way to play through counterspells, forcing them to hold a pair of Forces and accompanying blue cards to hit both the SnT and the following Titan. Perhaps it will mix well with my other idea, running 3-4 DRS in the MD. Soon I'll be able to test out all these lovely ideas.

@cwcomposer, I agree that goldfishing this deck isn't all that helpful in the sense that real games never work out quite as planned. I just like to keep the deck's main routes to victory in mind. They way my deck is built right now, protecting my Titan with Cavern of Souls is really, really important. BUG, Grixis, and 4-color builds are all popular in my meta, and they are always trying to beat me down with various things while holding up Force of Will for my key spell.

[mykatdied]

Well, going to 4 Show and Tell certainly makes for an interesting deck idea that goes right over Chalice, and I certainly would like to have a stronger matchup against the "other" Eldrazi deck. It's also a pretty heavy handed way to play through counterspells, forcing them to hold a pair of Forces and accompanying blue cards to hit both the SnT and the following Titan. Perhaps it will mix well with my other idea, running 3-4 DRS in the MD. Soon I'll be able to test out all these lovely.

What you meant was other "eldrazi". With quotes around eldrazi. It's ok, common misconception. But in my mind those aren't eldrazi. Real eldrazi cost 10+ mana.

[cin]

Hi,

I got 1st place on a 12-Man Legacy on our local store last July 30 2016 (Saturday)

Deck Name: MUD Post
(Colorless 12-Post / Mud-Based 12 post)

Decklist:
[26 Lands]
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dust Bowl
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Maze of Ith

[14 Creatures]
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine

[15 Artifacts]
4 Grim Monolith
4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map
3 Candelabra of Tawnos

[3 Sorcery]
3 Warping Wail

[2 Planeswalker]
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon


[15 Sideboard]
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 All is Dust

Report:
1st Round: MUD POST (2-0) *Mirror
Game 1:
- Won via damage by my wurmcoils and TKS
- Dust Bowl really did a great job on this matchup since ive been destroying each of his lands everytime I have extra land to play.
- He did a misplay after he casts the Newrakul 2.0 (Emraul, the Promised End) with the help of his Voltaic Key and Grim Monolith activating the Temporal Aprerture and controlled my turn. He didnt dustbowled my own karakas during the mindslave ability.

Game 2:
- Chalice for 1 on my first turn.
- Maze of Ith untapping his big clocks (Wurmcoil Engine)
- Thespian's Stage copying Maze of Ith to double my defence.
- Casted Ugin and activated his ulti throughout the game that caused me to draw Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger etc. I casted Emrkaul, the Aeons Torn (on my hand throughout the earlier turns) first before Ulamog. My opponent scoops.

BOARDING:
OUT: 3 Candelabra of Tawnos, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
IN: 4 Chalice of the Void

---------------------------------------

2nd Round: ELVES (2-1)
Game 1:
- He won via Turn 3 Combo

Game 2:
- Locked him out with 2 Lodestone Golems on turn 4 i think.
- turn 5 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (Opponent scoops)

Game 3:
- Pithing Needle naming Wirewood Symbiote
- Chalice for 1 on my first turn (Eventually destroyed by Reclamation Sage)
- casted Trinisphere on my 5th turn I think
- locked him using The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Trinisphere.
- won via Beatdown by my Thought-Knot Seer

BOARDING:
OUT: 3 Candelabra of Tawnos, 1 Cavern of Souls, 1 Karakas, 1 Pithing Needle,
1 Maze of Ith, 3 Wurmcoil Engine, 1 Emrakul, the Promised End,

IN: 4 Chalice of the Void, 4 Trinisphere, 3 All is Dust

---------------------------------------

3rd*Round: ANT (2-1)
Game 1:
- Casted Lodestone Golem on turn 2
- 2nd Lodestone Golem ready to cast on turn 3, he probed me then scooped.

Game 2:
- I dropped Leyline of the Void Starting Game.
- I Chalice for 0 and 1 on T1
- I Casted TKS on T4 (In response he Abrupt Decay my Chalice for 1)
- I have 2 Lodestone Golems in Play
- I Dropped Cotv again for 1 (On my end of turn he casted Hurkys Recall using his 4 mana)
- lost via comboing me out.

Game 3:
- Keeps a hand that has 5 lands and 1 Leyline of the Void and Trinisphere
- Dropped Leyline T1 and a land.
- Duressed my Trinisphere
- Eventually the following turns became grindy. That I managed to lock him again by a Trinishpere and beat him down to 4.
He Hurkyls Recalled my again then tried to combo me out having 4 life, he has Storm 6 I think and thinking if he'll play Empty the Warrens but he already saw. my hand which has a The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale at it, He chose Ad Nauseam instead. And died because of that. Since He need more storm to kill my 16 life total.

BOARDING:
OUT: 3 Candelabra of Tawnos, 4 Pithing Needle, 1 Karakas, 2 Wurmcoil Engine, 1 Cavern of Souls, 1 Maze of Ith

IN: 4 Chalice of the Void, 4 Trinisphere, 4 Leyline of the Void

---------------------------------------

4th Round: Eldrazi Aggro (2-1)
Game 1:
- Lost to him having 2 mimics and 1 Smasher, could not drop any earlier threats having my hand full of Needles and an Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Game 2:
- Won having T2 Wurmcoil Engine and another Wurmcoil Engines backup at hand

Game 3:
- Casted Emrakul with the use of Expedition Map searching Eye and Float so many mana with the help of Candelabra of Tawnos and searh Emrakul and casted Emrakul to let my opponent scoop.

BOARDING:
Did not board anything.

[Rock Lee]

Have been having some serious success with this list. Normally I wouldn't share before a weekend, but ended up not being able to schedule my weekly legacy big event. So have at it:

// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [R] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
2 [ST] Island (1)
4 [A] Tropical Island
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [EMN] Emrakul, the Promised End

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [DDN] Repeal
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 [M13] Omniscience

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [FNM] Dismember
SB: 1 [MMA] Faerie Macabre

[Neko448]

Got 5th place at a 58 person event with this hot pile of mana producing garbage:

4x Misty Rainforest
4x Tropical Island
1x Forest
1x Island
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Tabernacle at P. Vale
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Karakas
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Thespian Stage
2x Vesuva
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost

4x BACK TO BACK STANDARD CHAMPION PRIMMMMEVVVALLL TITAAAANNNNNN
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Emrakul, the Promised End
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1x Platinum Emperion

4x Brainstorm
4x Crop rotation
4x Show and Tell
2x Repeal
1x All is Dust

3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Expedition Map
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Candelabra of Twanos

2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

SB:
2x Surgical
2x Pithing Needle
4x Flusterstorm
3x Krosan Grip
2x Warping Wail
2x Blue Elemental Blast

Before you totally disregard what I'm saying, I just don't like running four tops. You know when you spin top and all three of your top cards are Top? I hate that. A lot.
Also, I'd totally be running two Candles, but the guy who said he was going to loan one to me just didn't bring it or sold it.
The All is Dust was a last minute inclusion that I never cast. Also Repeal has been garbage to me over 10 matches, I think I'm just going to not do it anymore.

Anyways, on to the meat of the story: My matches.

R1: Andrew Hiser on BIG RED
I know this guy. I actually call the deck Hiser's Deck. He knows what I'm playing. He's like "Hey, I'm really sorry I have to do this to you." I tried to be cordial, but I'm also trying not to cry. Not really how I wanted my day to start out :frown:
G1: I win the die roll and keep some hand that doesn't do anything. I play a trop, and he's like MANA MANA MANA BREACH GRISELBRAND DRAW FOURTEEN. Then he has enough guides and petals to stick a blood moon and chalice. We play draw go for like, three turns, then he emrakul's me
"Alex, I'm really wishing this didn't happen. I was hoping you were just on storm so we could play magic"
G2: On the play again, and I mulligan to five to keep Forest, Grip, Trop, Flusterstorm, Titan. For a second I'm thinking, "Hey, we might cast some spells here!" I play trop, holding up Flusterstorm. He just casually casts Magus of the Moon. Nice. Next turn I draw Blue Elemental Blast. Double nice. He casts Inferno Titan the next turn and proceeds to kill me.
"Hey, you can still win out. I realize that I brought five people here and they are all on big red, but they're worse pilots than me. You'll be fine. This deck takes a lot of skill" (I'm like, actually crying at this point and he's trying to console me. Our matches actually always go like this (once on storm I had three LEDs and an Infernal Tutor and I STILL couldn't get there!)) I snap off that it doesn't take a lot of skill to stick a T1 blood moon then proceed to scout the room. Everyone asks how I did and I just say "I played Hiser" and then they know.

So, I'm a bit salty, w/e, we'll just win out.

R2: Rick on B/R Reanimator
I know this guy from my group chat. He showed up late, but I guess they just let him play. Apparently when he preregistered the employee lied about the start time. Nice format~ He was playing this deck at our weekly, so I know what's up. (Actually, I didn't remember, but he just straight up told me when I asked)
G1: This game was really stupid. He like, duressed away my top and then unmasked my ugin, and I just kept playing cloudposts while he didn't like, reanimate dudes. I drew a Crop Rotation, but that got thoughtseized. Eventually he actually Griselbrands, then the next turn sticks Tidespout, but I guess he doesn't have any spells to cast? I'm staring down 12 damage and I'm dead on board. I'm hellbent and get one more draw step, so I tap a couple times on top of my deck and just flip the card over. It's Emrakul, the Aeons Torn! Sick life, thanks god~ He's got 6 permanents and 15 life, so we get there.
G2: He duresses/unmask/thoughtseizes me a billion times and kills me with duders. This matchup sucks, I hope I don't have to do this again.
G3: I keep a hand that's nothing but hate and a top. We've got flusterstorms floating like that splash of alcohol on a lush's last drink, it's awesome. I manage to surgically extract his duresses then he just walks into a bunch of hate over and over. Eventually he's got nothing left to reanimate. I play a PRIIIMMEEE TIMMEEE and just bowl him over.

R3: Dakota on U/B Reanimator
God dammit. I watched this guy draw the previous round so I know what he's on, and everyone always knows what I'm on, since I'm the local 12post catgirl. I lose the die roll here.
G1: His deck does the BS it's supposed to and I have no recourse since my Warping Wailings are in the sideboard, waiting for me.
G2: I keep a hand that's like, needle, map, map, primetime, glimmerpost, karakas, tropical, I think. Whatever, seems good. I'm starving and have submitted to death. I cast needle and he counters it. Strong line. He thoughtseizes me and takes my primetime. As he contemplates whether or not he can just make me die, I decide that even though playing Karakas is correct, I'm going to pretend I drew something sweet and play the Trop. I go to draw and it's actually just flusterstorm so my bluff kinda blows up on me, but whatever. I play the trop and pass. He casts an entomb and I counter it. Then he needles karakas. My next draw is Bojuka Bog, and I'm like, damn, I should probably get this in play? so I stick it. However, I'm not totally sure that I should bojuka myself or him. I decide to do it to myself, since titan is the only live reanimate target. Of course, if he has exhume, I just lost a ton of value. He draw goes, and I draw that sweet, sweet surgical. He studies carefully on his turn and goes to exhume the titan, which I ofc extract. He's got like, a force with no blue card and a bunch of lands. I draw a top after that and just pull ahead in the game of draw go, mostly because I drew a billion hate cards
G3: I don't even remember what really happened in this game, but I had all the right hate for his nonsense and he pithing needled map and karakas. I soared ahead with Needle, Posts and Ulamog, first blowing up the needle on karakas and his land, then coming back for the rest of his lands in the next turn. In response to the Ulamog mill trigger he entombed ashen rider, but I had Surgical for that. He had a lot of trouble following along the candle math, mostly because he kept interupting me. That's probably not worth mentioning but like, jeez, just let me explain opponent-sensei~

R4: Ryan Overturf on U/R Delver
This guy and I are pretty chill, so I spend the pregame shuffle-hustle making stupid jokes.
G1: He mulls to five, blind flips a delver, then blind flips another delver has wasteland > wasteland > wasteland to keep me off of All is Dust. Well, that sucked.
G2: I decide that my Plan A is just showing titan, since this is the first match where it's ACTUALLY an option. so I board in my flusterstorms to fight over Show and needles/surgical for the goldanged wasteland. My opener is like, show show lands top and needle. I play the turn one needle, play a bunch of lands, find the titan, stick it and run him over. I surgically extract his Force of Will at one point and turn to my boyfriend who also plays U/R Delver that THIS is what a real U/R Delver deck looks like, gesturing wildly at the lack of Prices.
G3: He mulls to six, keeps a slow one and I just run show and tells through countermagic until Prime Time makes his appearance. Later, I make some Spagetti and my opponent asks me to concede to him. I don't...

R5: Louis on ANT
This guy has no playmat, a handful of dice and a scrawled on pad. I don't recognize him, so I try to probe for info by asking if he plays much legacy. He's like "I don't really play much magic, but when I do, it's Legacy." I but him on like, burn or some old extended deck or something. He wins the Die roll.
G1: Show and Tell, Titan, Crop, fist full of lands. How could we go wrong?? He T1 duresses me, so I put him on storm. The way he manipulates cards kinda shows that he's really experienced and storm is everyone's favorite Pet Deck. He looks at my hand and scratches my head "ughh, I've never actually played against this deck." JACK POT. Hopefully he quit before Bojuka Bog was printed. STORM'S ON THE MENU BOYS. He reaches for my Show and Tell (YES) then he's like, "Crop" (NO). The next turn he goes for Past in Flames while I sullenly keep track of storm and stuff until I die.
G2: Well, at least we have 12 cards for this match up. I board out some titans and shit. He saw my tabernacle game 1, but I leave it in anyways in case of gobbos. My opener has got a top and 3 brainstorms #CantLose. I stick the top and he Duresses me. I choose his card for him. on my turn I Brainstorm and it's Surgical, Crop, Flusterstorm. So hot. I float the flusterstorm and carry the surgical. He Brainstorms then duress' me again, so I extract the Brainstorms and see he's got a really spicy hand featuring multiple rits, an led, PIF an tendrils. Looking through his deck I see he has no more tendrils in there, but he has the Empty the Warrens. He takes my BS. We play draw go for a bit (I draw warping wail and crop rotation) and eventually he just decides to go for it, tendrils me for like ten, then cracks some LEDs to go at it again. I wail the PIF. Then I bog him. He's getting all flustered now because my deck just makes no sense to him.
G3: I've got 2 flusterstorms and a warping wail in my opener. Stick some colored sources and play the waiting game. On T3 he ponders, then touches the cards together. Oh man was his hand good. I take his flusterstorm, and LED and Infernal tutor. Leaving him with a bunch of rits and a dark ritual. Then I surgically extract the BS right when I get priority (he didn't shuffle with the ponder either...). I'm floating a bunch of Flusterstorms now, and eventually I just cast titan after tons of Draw-Go and start swinging. I wail a Cabal Therapy and draw the fourth flusterstorm. He's really shaken up by the ponder thing and drops after he gets titan'd.

I'm glad I followed my R1 Opponent's Advice! Winning out is great~

R6: Jeremy on Miracles
We both know each other's decks from sitting next to each other, and he's not thrilled.
G1: I keep a hand with Ugin, Top and a bunch of Cloudposts. He takes the Ugin with a clique, and I draw Ulamog, which I promptly cast.
G: Keep a fat stack of Posts, ugin and emrakul. Draw a top for my T1 and stick it. he goes on the aggro plan, but doesn't take my ugin with clique. On the turn before I die, I cast it with flusterstorm back up but he doesn't even want to fight. Nor does he let me ultimate Ugin, instead just scooping it up. Alas~

Nice, we made it into the top 8! I play some dude I knew from High School

Quarters: Nikolai on RUG
G1: I keep a double show titan hand, and he wastes all my lands and counters all my spells
G2: I keep a double show titan hand, and he wastes all my lands and counters all my spells

I was extremely upset about the last game. He kept saying really mean things to me the whole time, deliberately to put me on tilt because he knew that I'm extremely sensitive, and after the game I actually just went outside and cried. Later, I played DDR and ate pizza with my prize money.

Thanks for reading~

[Rock Lee]

Got 5th place at a 58 person event with this hot pile of mana producing garbage:


Sounds like a nightmare event. Amazed you did so well against horrible matchups.

Shame about that Nikolai fellow. I only know one Nikolai and they're one of the nicest players ever, so go figure.

[Lormador]

@Rock Lee

Omniscience.... Omniscience!!!

That card is legit in this deck?

I beg you for some highlights.

@Neko

Thank you for the wonderful report.

[TheBoozeCube]

If funds were not a consideration (they are... I'm just daydreaming a little), how many Candelabras would mono-green run?

I run 4x. (Luckily, I got 3x of them when they were still $50.) It's not like I don't want to see multiples…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TheCorgiKing]

Hi,

I got 1st place on a 12-Man Legacy on our local store last July 30 2016 (Saturday)

Deck Name: MUD Post
(Colorless 12-Post / Mud-Based 12 post)

Decklist:
[26 Lands]
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dust Bowl
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Maze of Ith

[14 Creatures]
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine

[15 Artifacts]
4 Grim Monolith
4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map
3 Candelabra of Tawnos

[3 Sorcery]
3 Warping Wail

[2 Planeswalker]
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon


[15 Sideboard]
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 All is Dust



Congrats on the finish! This list looks super fun, but did you ever feel flooded with all the Sol Lands and Monolith?

I've not played a list without fetches or Tops, is that ever problematic, or do you just power through and cast WCE and the Titans?

[cin]

Congrats on the finish! This list looks super fun, but did you ever feel flooded with all the Sol Lands and Monolith?

I've not played a list without fetches or Tops, is that ever problematic, or do you just power through and cast WCE and the Titans?

Actually I've used the UG Post before and did a lot of changes and modications to the deck. And it turns out (just my opinion) that MUD-based Post is really aggressive and accurate. Given the fact that the Titans are all colorless. It ramps out immediately. And also with the help of Taxes (Lodestone), thoughtseize-like creature that cant be bolted, and decayed (Thought-Knot Seer). It really is a good synergy having colorless. Grim Monolith and Sol Lands interact really good and I dont feel that im flooded of mana because your game-style should be having alot of mana that will finish your opponents easily. I can cast UGIN on T2, Emrakul on T3 etc.

But it really depends on the meta. You should try it sometime and see for yourself if you really want the Mud-Based Build for the Post or not. :smile: Let me know when you tried it. :smile:

[mykatdied]

@cin - very interesting list. My fiance and I run a similar list that would replace the thought-thought-knots with codon of Ruin and has a couple deceiver of forms. It's a lot of fun. Have you considered just running eldrazi temple over city of traitors? That is the way we went since it it a sol land for eldrazi and sticks around through land drops and ramping. I would suggest trying it. Your list seems solid, but it may be an option for you.

@neko448 you mentioned a couple of very rude and condescending opponents. You also mentioned being the 12post catgirl. If I am safe to assume that you are female, my fiance deals with that a lot as well when on 12 post. People have explained simple mechanics and plays like cascade into ancestral, how stifling a fetchland works, etc. That is unfortunately how the magic community is. Feel free to sass them or if it ever goes towards making comments like "I can't believe I lost to a girl" feel free to report them to a judge if it is competitive REL. That bahavior is extremely unacceptable and needs to be adjusted to make sure the game is accessible and comfortable for all players.

[Neko448]

@neko448 you mentioned a couple of very rude and condescending opponents. You also mentioned being the 12post catgirl. If I am safe to assume that you are female, my fiance deals with that a lot as well when on 12 post. People have explained simple mechanics and plays like cascade into ancestral, how stifling a fetchland works, etc. That is unfortunately how the magic community is. Feel free to sass them or if it ever goes towards making comments like "I can't believe I lost to a girl" feel free to report them to a judge if it is competitive REL. That bahavior is extremely unacceptable and needs to be adjusted to make sure the game is accessible and comfortable for all players.

Yeah, it would be nice to for things to be different, but as much as we just want to blame the magic community, it's society who is at fault. Most people who are new to the community or legacy just assume that I have no idea what's going on and while it's kinda shitty, you can easily spin it into an advantage. However, I play a lot of legacy and pretty everyone in MN knows who I am and what I'm on. I feel like I'm a pretty good pilot and my opponents tend to agree. And I don't like just complaining to judges because someone was mean, I usually just try to beat them instead. The match with Nikolai was something pretty out of the ordinary and was mostly just a huge character flaw of that person. After I ran away from the top 8 table, the head judge PM'd me and ask if I was alright and I think he called out Nikolai, because he apolgized later to me. I'm just trying not to worry about it anf accept I likely could not have won those games anyways because my opponent's hands were just absurd, even if I did make a few misplays. I feel like I could have crushed the rest of the top 8 too, which would have been nice since it was a 1k


Edit: and trust me, I'm sassy enough, lol

[HomicidalRambo]

@Rock Lee

Omniscience.... Omniscience!!!

That card is legit in this deck?

I beg you for some highlights.

@Neko

Thank you for the wonderful report.

Hmmm omni fits the deck style I was playing nicely. Increase show effects nicely and free ugin. Chalice less of a problem. Never thought of trying it. Let me know your thoughts I'll be trying it over the next few weeks!

[Rock Lee]

@Rock Lee

Omniscience.... Omniscience!!!

That card is legit in this deck?

I beg you for some highlights.


I had a slot of 2 cards that I couldn't quite flex well with James Gasparme's list. The EE's I felt were only effectively strong against greedy hands of my opponent, and negating chalice. Against both those cards, show and tell is my optimal play, and against several of them showing in Titan is your only real option but Ugin was almost always the better card (exception being Eldrazi Aggro).

I pittered with multiple options, including oracle of mul daya, engineered explosives in multiple variants, pithing needle, even more normal bounce like echoing truth. Ultimately I was thinking of how sneaky-show bridges the gap between show and tell/sneaky's weaknesses and omniscience as a splash simply for on-cast triggers of emrakul. With 4-7 targets for omniscience in sneaky show, this deck runs 9 if you count ugin, which is ultimately why I like omni. Omniscience bridges the gap between show and tell and ugin that previously fought itself.

My testing has been extremly strong. Emrakul, the Promised End forces people to care about my graveyard. Omni forces people to care about enchantment destruction and terrible cards to fight the card omniscience itself. Unlike Sneaky Show though, Omni doesn't hinder our cast-plan at all.

EDIT: Some Omni learning though is I might suggest including some number of Unsubstantiates or Vensers in the sideboard, since when putting in Omniscience vs an opposing Omniscience, you lose that pivotal etb-trigger to grip their Omni. could be an outlier play, but I like Unsubstantiate already as a nice flex that also ignores cavern and emrakul's uncounterable caveat.

[mykatdied]

Yeah, it would be nice to for things to be different, but as much as we just want to blame the magic community, it's society who is at fault. Most people who are new to the community or legacy just assume that I have no idea what's going on and while it's kinda shitty, you can easily spin it into an advantage. However, I play a lot of legacy and pretty everyone in MN knows who I am and what I'm on. I feel like I'm a pretty good pilot and my opponents tend to agree. And I don't like just complaining to judges because someone was mean, I usually just try to beat them instead. The match with Nikolai was something pretty out of the ordinary and was mostly just a huge character flaw of that person. After I ran away from the top 8 table, the head judge PM'd me and ask if I was alright and I think he called out Nikolai, because he apolgized later to me. I'm just trying not to worry about it anf accept I likely could not have won those games anyways because my opponent's hands were just absurd, even if I did make a few misplays. I feel like I could have crushed the rest of the top 8 too, which would have been nice since it was a 1k


Edit: and trust me, I'm sassy enough, lol

You sound very similar to my fiance. She mostly brushes it off because people just suck. She actually wrote a very popular article on the subject of women in magic. "The View From Here". But it sounds like you are well known in your area for your deck so you are obviously accomplished. Would love to see some higher level finishes from you! Good luck and have fun!

[Ecstatic_Conch]

I thought I would stop in to share my latest list, which I 3-1'd two weeklies recently with. This week I went 1-2 because of a re-pair, I was going to play against miracles round 3 but was repaired against moggcatcher. My losses were mostly to infect otherwise.

4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Maze of Ith
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation
3 Show and Tell
3 Repeal
1 Trinket Mage
2 Moment's Peace
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 World Breaker
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

I cut a moment's peace for the new emrakul and that certainly did not help against infect. It's a card I have a love/hate relationship with, it's very bad when they have deathrite but sometimes it's just double time walk (Used it against a geist equipped with sword of fire and ice, nothing else would have gotten me out of that jam).

I also disagree with moving away from pithing needle. I hate to remind everyone but this decks biggest weakness is wasteland and even just one can be game, especially against delver decks. Instead I think you're relying too heavily on show and tell which I think is a mistake. I've always viewed it as a backup plan in a lot of matchups. If that's your plan A, then one force could wreck your day. Pithing needle is just rarely dead, if ever, and was instrumental in most of my wins, naming wasteland, inkmoth nexus, port, liliana, random swords etc. My only knock against it is that it costs one and gets countered by chalice.

Omniscience is a think a weak card to include because it has the potential to be a "dead card" a lot of the time when you don't have show and tell. Yes, you can cast it with triple blue which can be tough with ~6 blue sources, but by then you have enough mana to cast almost anything so its effect is redundant. Honestly I just think it's going to rot in your hand and you'll be wishing it's anything else as you die to a glistener elf or whatever. I'm willing to be wrong here, just let me know if you test it a lot and it does a lot more than I think it would.

The new emrakul I tested out this week and was able to take control of their turn, cast a cunning wish and counter it with pact of negation. Since they only have 4 lands in play they died in the upkeep of their "extra turn." I don't expect it to be ever that good again haha.

[cin]

@cin - very interesting list. My fiance and I run a similar list that would replace the thought-thought-knots with codon of Ruin and has a couple deceiver of forms. It's a lot of fun. Have you considered just running eldrazi temple over city of traitors? That is the way we went since it it a sol land for eldrazi and sticks around through land drops and ramping. I would suggest trying it. Your list seems solid, but it may be an option for you.


Hi mykatdied,

I tested it before using the Eldrazi Temple, but given the fact that the eldrazi spells that I have are only 7 on the deck. I couldn't maximize it and Candelabra doesn't support it either. City of traitors really has good synergy on Candelabra and Grim Monoliths. I increase my chance to have 2 Colorless Mana on T1 with these scenarios:
1. T1 Land Drop (Ancient Tomb / City of Traitors) Grim Monolith to Grim Monolith then cast a 4 CC Creature (Lodestone or TKS)
2. T1 Land Drop (Ancient Tomb / City of Traitors) Grim Monolith, T2 Land Drop (any land that comes into play untapped and produces 1 or 2 mana) then cast Wurmcoil Engine
3. T1 Land Drop (Ancient Tomb / City of Traitors) Grim Monolith, T2 Land Drop (Ancient Tomb / City of Traitors), Cast Candelabra of Tawnos, Floating 3 (use the 2 to untap both lands, then tap them again for mana: Floating 5 Mana) Tap Grim to Float a total of 8 Mana Then cast Ugin, the Spirit Dragon.
4. [Boarding], T1 Drop Sol land, Cast Grim, Cast Trinisphere
5. [Boarding], T1 Drop Sol land, Cast Cotv for 1.

I usually run 4 Candelabra of Tawnos when I use 8 Sol Lands, and it really is very abusive. But sometimes Candelabra seems to be a dead card on later games. That's why I now only use 3 Candels.

City of Traitors is better than Eldrazi Temple in this list because it increases your chance of having 2 mana to cast anything on your deck instead of relying to your 7 Eldrazi Spells plus 3 on SB, just my opinion.

You can abuse Candelabra of Tawnos in this list because of having a 7 total of Sol Lands, I tried using 8 Sol Lands but I re-consider since I want to have a toolbox of lands.

Tips: You can still use your City of Traitors after you put a land in response to the trigger of sacrificing it and abuse the Candelabra before sacrificing it. You can also abuse it using your dusbowl, Float 3 mana. landdrop dustbowl then tap dustbowl in response to your city of traitors then sac your City to destroy non-basic land of your opponent.

[TheBoozeCube]

Got 5th place at a 58 person event with this hot pile of mana producing garbage:

Rough luck getting paired against Hiser, but congrats on the finish! Where was this at?


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[Neko448]

Rough luck getting paired against Hiser, but congrats on the finish! Where was this at?


It was the Levelup Cup, so essentially just a 1k. I'm happy I made top 8 but I would really like to make it past the quarters one of these times...

Hiser was actually really nice about it, he always is, I'm just a bit whiny when it comes to blood moons and it's a pretty awful way to start the day. 6/7 matchups were horrendous, and I pulled through, so I think I should be proud of that

@rocklee: haven't dropped a match since throwing some omnis in there. this card is bonkers!!

[Rock Lee]

@rocklee: haven't dropped a match since throwing some omnis in there. this card is bonkers!!

I KNOWWW! It is fixing so many of the problems I had both with ugin, but also only being willing to show and tell Primeval Titans but wanting to run 4 show and tells. Including many situations where showing in a Primeval Titan didn't win the game: Versus most forms of combo every eldrazi does something, when on only 3 basic lands vs non-lands.deck denial/pressure, and when you simply need 2 things off of one Show and Tell (Ugin + Titan usually).

[TheBoozeCube]

It was the Levelup Cup, so essentially just a 1k. I'm happy I made top 8 but I would really like to make it past the quarters one of these times...

Hiser was actually really nice about it, he always is, I'm just a bit whiny when it comes to blood moons and it's a pretty awful way to start the day. 6/7 matchups were horrendous, and I pulled through, so I think I should be proud of that

@rocklee: haven't dropped a match since throwing some omnis in there. this card is bonkers!!

Yeah, he's a nice guy. Drew to let me lock Top 8 at the Super IQ, even though he could have crushed me and guaranteed being first seed (although he ended up there anyway).


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[MechTactical]

i've toyed with omni in more wacky SnT builds and was intrigued. Never really tried it in a classical list. Both ugin and omni power out Mindrakul AND more importantly both cover critical weaknesses of the deck and thus contribute to the overall efficiency (pairing with our SnT - Titan aKa planB). With a configuration like this i found it hard to lose against "fair" (whatever that means in legacy) decks.

[Lormador]

In a similar vein with Omniscience, which I'll at least try out, I'm wondering about Boseiju in a 4 SnT build. It could also cover Crop Rotations (and I guess Crop Rotating itself when it's mostly dead isn't so bad) and potentially Green Sun's Zenith.

[Neko448]

In a similar vein with Omniscience, which I'll at least try out, I'm wondering about Boseiju in a 4 SnT build. It could also cover Crop Rotations (and I guess Crop Rotating itself when it's mostly dead isn't so bad) and potentially Green Sun's Zenith.

It actually takes a bit of work to use boseju on a crop rotation

[TheBoozeCube]

It actually takes a bit of work to use boseju on a crop rotation

Sphere of Resistance!


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[Pdingo]

Guys if you want to play a clunky card like omniscience you should play omnitell..it's the better omnitell deck;)

[cwcomposer]

Anyone see Daniel Ljunggren's awesome new art for Crop Rotation from the new Duel Decks?

[Skriger]

So I've been trying to hunt a Tabernacle down for quite some time. But since the price hike its getting tough to find one sub $900. Anyone have one for trade/Sale? As of now I put Maze of Ith in it's place but not as powerful unless i can get a candelabra up and running.

Also any suggestions of some place I can hunt one down would be appreciated too.

[Zotmaster]

So I've been trying to hunt a Tabernacle down for quite some time. But since the price hike its getting tough to find one sub $900. Anyone have one for trade/Sale? As of now I put Maze of Ith in it's place but not as powerful unless i can get a candelabra up and running.

Also any suggestions of some place I can hunt one down would be appreciated too.

eBay has a few Italian ones under $800. If you're looking for English though, I don't think you're going to find one at that price...at least not from a vendor.

[THATONE]

The high end facebook group has tabernacles for under 900, easily. I see italians right now going for 700-800, and heavily played english ones for in the 800-900 range.

[Rock Lee]

went 3-1 with this omniscience build, with my only loss being to a legitimate mis-siding (I thought I had sided the cards I sided in out, and drew the mis-sided card when it would've won me the game):

// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [R] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
2 [ST] Island (1)
4 [A] Tropical Island
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [EMN] Emrakul, the Promised End

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [US] Show and Tell
3 [DDN] Repeal
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 [M13] Omniscience

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will

matchups were eldrazi aggro, eldrazi aggro, hypergenesis (punt due to siding krosan grip vs blue cards), and dredge.

[maCHOOga]

So I played my Gw 12 Post (aka Grapple Pile) at the Baltimore SCG classic this past Sunday. Started out well with a 2-0, somehow beating Zom-tamination in game 3.*
Then played against 3 flavors of delver, losing to all of them; each one being a bigger blowout than the previous.
Round 3 delver matchup against 4 Angler Grixis Delver. We have some really close games, but a turn 2 gurmag and perfectly timed wasteland closes me out of the game with 5 mana in play and 3 primetimes in hand. Ughh.
Round 5 delver matchup was a 4colored variant with stifle. Casting a thoughtknot seer I saw: stifle, diabolic edict, bolt and a ponder. I took stifle since I had a veteran explorer on board. Ughhh^2
Round 6 delver matchup was stock UR. Game 2 involved a blood moon into sulfuric vortex. Ughhh^3.

I rarely play against delver in the local metagame, but I'm 0-5 out of the last 5 larger event matches against delvers. Is this just an awful matchup for near mono-green post, am I not doing something right or just getting unlucky?

* I've never seen this before, it basically contaimination + gravecrawler / cryptbreaker. If you thought back to basics / bloodmoon was bad, you haven't experienced not playing magic until you experienced this!

[HomicidalRambo]

So I played my Gw 12 Post (aka Grapple Pile) at the Baltimore SCG classic this past Sunday. Started out well with a 2-0, somehow beating Zom-tamination in game 3.*
Then played against 3 flavors of delver, losing to all of them; each one being a bigger blowout than the previous.
Round 3 delver matchup against 4 Angler Grixis Delver. We have some really close games, but a turn 2 gurmag and perfectly timed wasteland closes me out of the game with 5 mana in play and 3 primetimes in hand. Ughh.
Round 5 delver matchup was a 4colored variant with stifle. Casting a thoughtknot seer I saw: stifle, diabolic edict, bolt and a ponder. I took stifle since I had a veteran explorer on board. Ughhh^2
Round 6 delver matchup was stock UR. Game 2 involved a blood moon into sulfuric vortex. Ughhh^3.

I rarely play against delver in the local metagame, but I'm 0-5 out of the last 5 larger event matches against delvers. Is this just an awful matchup for near mono-green post, am I not doing something right or just getting unlucky?

* I've never seen this before, it basically contaimination + gravecrawler / cryptbreaker. If you thought back to basics / bloodmoon was bad, you haven't experienced not playing magic until you experienced this!

It's tough on mono green imo. If white and terminus MB it helps a lot for aggro decks. Why majority play blue and why I stack all 4 SnT and refuse to go any lower. It's the best play around them. They lower are mana curve so much. Also, EE main board helps a lot to slow them down. Since 4 SnT and 2 EE MB I'm over 85% winning against delver. You stated 5 mana...that's a SnT that doesn't care about spell pieces or daze. Main reason I run blue plus better against combo.

With mono green your best bet is moments peace and EE to slow them down outside of tabernacle. maps, crop rotation and hopefully you have 3 candles to try to over aggro. Not sure your build. Even with blue. I try to get a tabernacle out very fast. Most common delver decks run 18 lands 4 of which are wastelands. Slows them immensely and forces them to waste it when looking for one and ur posts usually survive. Only G/W I've had any good luck with ran terminus MB.

[TheCorgiKing]

So I've been trying to hunt a Tabernacle down for quite some time. But since the price hike its getting tough to find one sub $900. Anyone have one for trade/Sale? As of now I put Maze of Ith in it's place but not as powerful unless i can get a candelabra up and running.

Also any suggestions of some place I can hunt one down would be appreciated too.

Check the "High End Magic stuff for sale!" group on Facebook, I've seen 3 in the last week in the 700-1100 range, I just don't have the funds to pick one up myself

[Rock Lee]

I rarely play against delver in the local metagame, but I'm 0-5 out of the last 5 larger event matches against delvers. Is this just an awful matchup for near mono-green post, am I not doing something right or just getting unlucky?

* I've never seen this before, it basically contaimination + gravecrawler / cryptbreaker. If you thought back to basics / bloodmoon was bad, you haven't experienced not playing magic until you experienced this!

I am lucky to have many variations of delver/tempo locally. The Mono green versions have huge issues vs delver mostly on the back of no repeal/show and tell, but also mono green versions are more vulnerable to their draws (Grapple helps this immensely, but imo not enough. I started out mono green with Eldritch Moon's release, but have since turned back to U/G and am loving its resilience.)

I have played vs contamination + gravecrawler before. The card is mean. I suggest surgical.

[TheBoozeCube]

I rarely play against delver in the local metagame, but I'm 0-5 out of the last 5 larger event matches against delvers. Is this just an awful matchup for near mono-green post, am I not doing something right or just getting unlucky?

I've done well with Cg Post vs Delver (which is at least closer to you than UG). What I've found generally:

Grixis/4C: Warping Wail is one of the best cards here. Taking out Pyromancer is its primary objective, but stopping a critical Cabal Therapy is good too. Unless I'm going on a fast hand, Tabernacle is one of the first things I usually tutor for; Maze does a good job of keeping everything else under control if you can deal with Pyro. This is a matchup where I've been loving Silent Arbiter out of the board.

UR: This is, IMO, the worst Delver matchup because of Price. I think it plays out fairly similar to Grixis, but I put a higher premium on Glimmerposts to pad my life total. If I have enough of a buffer, I'll often hide behind Chasm preemptively while I set up an Eldrazi. With the card draw from Kozilek or extra turn from Emrakul, you can often get in an extra Glimmerpost drop that they can't Price in response to, then just Crop away the Chasm to attack.

BUG: Maze for Goyf/Delver and Warping Wail for Deathrite/Hymn. They have Abrupt Decay for Needle, so I bring in Surgical to hit their first Wasteland. As long as they don't have a nut draw to rip your hand apart by turn 2-3, I think this is the easiest of the Delver matchups.

RUG: This is one of the few matchups period that I board out Warping Wail. Resolving Pithing Needle on Wasteland is a priority. I play against this deck frequently, which is one of the reasons I just play more basics instead of fetches, although that's probably not an option if you're splashing white.

All: Board wipes are your best friend against any Delver variant. Between All Is Dust, Ugin, O Stone, Ratchet Bomb, and Tabernacle, we have a huge arsenal of tools at our disposal. I don't go with Moment's Peace because I'd usually rather take a bit more damage and deal with their threats permanently.




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[Pdingo]

Also me with my MonoGreen List have done very good against Delver Decks.
UR Delver with Price of Progress and Wasteland are the only Delver Deck that is hard to beat.

Otherwhise i have to say that UG is not that good against the most Delver Decks..Just playing repeal doesn't do much..
The Clunky Cards like SnT sent are also to slow sometimes or just get daze'd. Your Manabaze is even weaker cause you need more coloured mana.

Very important in the Delver Match up is always searching the right land;) I mean the last time i played against a BUG Delver List with stifle, i lost really close 1:2 in the first game he played 4 stifle and 4 wasteland and i could still win..The small missplay at the beginning (Crapping the Map instead of the Cloudpost, cause he's normally always on reanimator) was important.

[into_play]

So I played my Gw 12 Post (aka Grapple Pile) at the Baltimore SCG classic this past Sunday. Started out well with a 2-0, somehow beating Zom-tamination in game 3.*
Then played against 3 flavors of delver, losing to all of them; each one being a bigger blowout than the previous.
Round 3 delver matchup against 4 Angler Grixis Delver. We have some really close games, but a turn 2 gurmag and perfectly timed wasteland closes me out of the game with 5 mana in play and 3 primetimes in hand. Ughh.
Round 5 delver matchup was a 4colored variant with stifle. Casting a thoughtknot seer I saw: stifle, diabolic edict, bolt and a ponder. I took stifle since I had a veteran explorer on board. Ughhh^2
Round 6 delver matchup was stock UR. Game 2 involved a blood moon into sulfuric vortex. Ughhh^3.

I rarely play against delver in the local metagame, but I'm 0-5 out of the last 5 larger event matches against delvers. Is this just an awful matchup for near mono-green post, am I not doing something right or just getting unlucky?


I play U/G exclusively and Delver matchups are never easy, regardless of the flavor of Delver. I've been tuning a build that should do better against the Delver variants, even if it means cutting back on hate for other strategies like combo.

One card that I intend to board is Carpet of Flowers. I think it is the closest thing to an all-around Delver answer, since every Delver deck has a mana denial or damage rushing element. Carpet helps at least counteract the mana denial, and our deck has plenty of mana sinks to make use of the extra mana. As long as you have a sufficient number of game-winners like Ugin as well as enough Cavern of Souls to resolve your titans, I think you will be in a good enough spot to take advantage. I used Carpet before Ugin was around and it was still effective for me then. It looks like it would have helped you a lot in all of your situations listed above.

As Rambo said, Engineered Explosives helps a ton. Many opponents will overextend Delvers and Deathrites against you knowing that you're slow, so hitting multiple creatures off of one EE feels like a victory in itself. Against the Pyromancer builds, drop it for 0 and wait to reset their Elemental tokens. In the Delver matchups, the card never feels bad in multiples. I always mainboard two in any version of Post these days, and will board at least one extra for said anti-Delver build.

If you own The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, of course bring it in. I see many 12Post builds include this maindeck, probably for the same problem matchups. Since you are running mono-green, I imagine setting up your early plays are less risky than for U/G, which has to use dual lands more often. But in any build, I would utilize Carpet, Explosives and Tabernacle the most to try and combat Delver.

[Drixx]

just agree with into_play i'm already using 2 carpets from winter orb time, flusterstorm are great to help resolve your crop rotations or show&tell but it's not so usual, gut shoots what i'm still maybe only one who like it for pyro/delvers matchups and EE are just best against all ,trickbind also helps . Last two tournaments:
ur delver 1:2(mull,no lands)
ur delver 2:0
ur delver 1:2 (my missplay)
nic fit 2:0 (justice)
---------------
4c mentor 2:0
ant 2:1 (could be 2:0)
ur delver 2:1
tezzeret control 0:2 shame first game i was too
self-confidenced and i let him to kill me because i thought that ub tezzeret ultimate taking one life(instead two) for each artifact what he own and second turn mull to 6 and no colored lands i was incredibly unlucky under s. top full hand of shows, krosan g. trickbinds so that happend :(

i had some free time from cards and it looked like that :)

[mykatdied]

I think it comes down to. Sometimes delver does it's thing and is near impossible to beat.

[Leshrac82]

I think it comes down to. Sometimes delver does it's thing and is near impossible to beat.

Exactly this.

I think my build is in general set up well against Delver, probably better than many other green builds (and i really don't think blue builds are that much better against Delver, if at all). It's still about 50/50, just very swingy overall. In the beginning i didn't have a good plan for Delver and lost a lot, then after some changes i was winning almost every match against Delver, then i lost every match for some time, then i started winning again. I think my current list is favored against most Delver decks, but it will never be an easy matchup.

There isn't one strategy that works all the time. Tabernacle can do some work, but sometimes it's useless. Same goes for Maze of Ith. A fast win condition, like S&T for blue lists or Dark Depths for me, can win a lot of games, but sometimes they can stop it. Engineered Explosives main is great and usually buys me a lot of time, but it's not always enough either. Warping Wail can help a bit against most Delver decks.

I think my deck can answer everything Delver does, but i don't have all my different answers at the same time, and sometimes my answers just don't line up with their threats. Tabernacle is bad when they are flooded, Maze of Ith is bad when they are going wide, a Wasteland (or FoW for the Crop Rotation) at the wrong time can stop Dark Depths, Warping Wail does nothing against Goyf, sometimes they Stifle the Engineered Explosives, etc.

From my experience, Grixis Delver is the easiest Delver matchup. BUG Delver depends - lists without Stifle are maybe even easier to beat than Grixis, but most lists i played against had Stifle, and against these decks i don't think i'm favored. RUG Delver i didn't play much, but it's not that different from a BUG list with Stifle. UR Delver is probably the worst - sometimes you just can't win, and Blood Moon from the sideboard doesn't make it easier.

[Skriger]

Check the "High End Magic stuff for sale!" group on Facebook, I've seen 3 in the last week in the 700-1100 range, I just don't have the funds to pick one up myself
Ah forgot to check there. Thanks!


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[quantumactivist]

Omniscience is bonkers.

3-1'd a small weekly with 2x mb.

being able to drop 2 titans, titan + ugin, or snt->omni into casting eldrazi when no access to titan were insane.

I feel it hurt the consistency a little but it raises the ceiling of certain draws to compete with the faster decks.

Ran a MB Intuition which was great.

[Leshrac82]

I like my current Tracker/Knight list a lot, and it might finally be a version with a higher winrate than the earlier iterations, still too early to tell though. Stopped some experiments that didn't work out, kept some other changes, and it feels just very strong and a lot more consistant than before. The consistancy is still the biggest weakness (most of the games i lost came down to mulligans into bad hands), but Grapple helps with that. There have been some changes to the last list i posted, so i guess i'll just post an updated list:


Maindeck (61 cards):

2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

3 Mox Diamond
3 Crop Rotation
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Grapple with the Past
2 Warping Wail
2 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard:

1 Reclamation Sage
2 Warping Wail
1 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Crop Rotation
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Moment's Peace
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction

So, the changes:
1. As i said before, going under 3 Mox Diamonds was a huge mistake, won't do that again.
2. Tireless Tracker is just great in multiples. I can't find the room for another one, but i want to keep those 3. I'm happy without the Gitrog Monster, haven't missed it at all - i think Tracker is just the overall better choice.
3. No Veteran Explorer. It's strong against Eldrazi, but with a white splash they have an answer with Displacer, and i've seen that a lot. Otherwise it's ok against some decks, but you can't rely on it - and against combo decks it's just very useless.
4. No third big payoff: I replaced Ugin with New Emrakul a while ago, and i think that's the best candidate for that slot. But overall Mindrakul wasn't that impressive for me, it was almost never the strictly better choice compared with the other 2 Eldrazi. So i tried a list with one less clunky card. Haven't really missed it so far, a cheaper card instead is better for consistancy.
5. One less GSZ. That cut was hard to make - but i wanted 3 Grapple, and after cutting 2 creatures so far, i wanted to cut a spell instead, because Grapple gets worse with more spells - and i think with 3x Grapple i can live with one less GSZ.
6. Grapple with the Past: I'm a little late with that card, but it's just great. All the arguments for it with other green lists work for this deck too, this helps a lot with the consistancy. On top of that, Crucible and Knight of the Reliquary both get additional benefits with more lands in the graveyard. I think 3 is the right number - i don't want 4, this card is relying on the graveyard, and so many parts of our deck use the graveyard that it's very reasonable for our opponents to bring in graveyard hate. Against something like Rest in Piece this card is just dead, i don't want that. (Considering graveyard hate, i want my opponents to bring in the hate, because while that might hurt a little bit, it doesn't stop the primary game plan. I just don't want to get to a point where the graveyard hate becomes a real problem.)
7. Thoughtseize in the Sideboard over Leyline: Still testing that, that will take a while and many more matches against combo decks. But i think i like it, it's just more flexible and works against more decks. The mana hasn't been an issue so far, whenever i had a Thoughtseize to cast i also had the black mana (and the 2nd Bayou helps with some other sideboard cards too).

Overall the sideboard looks like a mess with Ensnaring Bridge, Moment's Peace and Toxic Deluge as very different answers to aggressive decks. They are all at their best in different matchups: Bridge is good against certain combo decks too, and can be a permanent solution against Eldrazi, Moment's Peace is the best defense against Infect (and that's probably my worst matchup among the top decks), Toxic Deluge is generally good against every creature based deck and i could see playing more copies at some point.
Golgari Charm is my splitcard as another conditional sweeper against some decks, and an answer to problematic enchantments like Blood Moon against other decks. Imo not good enough for more than one slot, but i'm happy with the one copy.

One thing the change to Thoughtseize makes much more realistic is the possibility to shave one of these for another card against aggro decks, i really don't like that with Leylines. I might do that at some point, have to see what needs the help more.

[Hencules]

I like my current Tracker/Knight list a lot, and it might finally be a version with a higher winrate than the earlier iterations, still too early to tell though. Stopped some experiments that didn't work out, kept some other changes, and it feels just very strong and a lot more consistant than before. The consistancy is still the biggest weakness (most of the games i lost came down to mulligans into bad hands), but Grapple helps with that. There have been some changes to the last list i posted, so i guess i'll just post an updated list:


[List]



As you know I'm a fan of the list, I've been playing it a lot. The learning curve is a bit steep, especially against some type of decks. How has grapple been treating you? My list is almost the same, but:
-1 bayou
-1 ghost quarter
-3 grapple
+1 mox (i love 4, it's my brainstorm: it fixes bad hands)
+ 1 zenith (i understand why you wouldnt wanna cut it, it's awesome)
+ 1 warping wail (swiss army knife, though 2 may be enough)
+ 1 wooded foothills (optimize that top)
+ 1 wasteland (i tried the ghost quarter idea, but decks that have basics which you could target, often have multiples of those. Wasteland is way more straight forward for me)

And I agree wholeheartedly that 2 eldrazi top-end spells is plenty. It's very rare I can't find one late game (Knight, titan and crop rotation all let you search for eye).

Currently, my biggest problem is eldrazi. Post-board I have some nice options (Bridge, among others), but T2 TKS is a beating. What's your strategy for Eldrazi?

I can confirm the delver matchup. A single piece of disruption will hardly stop them, but there's so many different angles on which you can attack the deck (their mana, their guys, going of the top) that the matchup becomes at least 50/50.

My current highlight with the deck is going against Sneak and Show (G3). I have an early bridge, game goes for a zillion turns where we have answers for each others moves. I kill his first blood moon with krosan grip, but the second one sticks. Turns out you can still attack with the (now mountain) dryad. I kick for a few turns and can finally drop my 15th land to hardcast Emrakul for the win.

The deck is just great and a blast to play.

[Leshrac82]

As you know I'm a fan of the list, I've been playing it a lot. The learning curve is a bit steep, especially against some type of decks. How has grapple been treating you? My list is almost the same, but:
-1 bayou
-1 ghost quarter
-3 grapple
+1 mox (i love 4, it's my brainstorm: it fixes bad hands)
+ 1 zenith (i understand why you wouldnt wanna cut it, it's awesome)
+ 1 warping wail (swiss army knife, though 2 may be enough)
+ 1 wooded foothills (optimize that top)
+ 1 wasteland (i tried the ghost quarter idea, but decks that have basics which you could target, often have multiples of those. Wasteland is way more straight forward for me)

And I agree wholeheartedly that 2 eldrazi top-end spells is plenty. It's very rare I can't find one late game (Knight, titan and crop rotation all let you search for eye).

Currently, my biggest problem is eldrazi. Post-board I have some nice options (Bridge, among others), but T2 TKS is a beating. What's your strategy for Eldrazi?

I can confirm the delver matchup. A single piece of disruption will hardly stop them, but there's so many different angles on which you can attack the deck (their mana, their guys, going of the top) that the matchup becomes at least 50/50.

My current highlight with the deck is going against Sneak and Show (G3). I have an early bridge, game goes for a zillion turns where we have answers for each others moves. I kill his first blood moon with krosan grip, but the second one sticks. Turns out you can still attack with the (now mountain) dryad. I kick for a few turns and can finally drop my 15th land to hardcast Emrakul for the win.

The deck is just great and a blast to play.

I like playing 4 Mox, just can't find the room for another one. Same with 4 GSZ. Going with 3 Warping Wail main is an option too, opens up another sideboard slot. I think without Grapple my deck would go in the same direction. I still don't know if Wasteland or Ghost Quarter is better - i like Ghost Quarter because i find myself in situations where i want to target my own land a lot, but Wasteland is the safer choice and the difference should be very small.

Grapple has overperformed for me.
What it does:
- early it usually ensures a landdrop (and not making your 3rd or 4th landdrop can cost you with this deck, but you have to keep many hands with just 2 mana producing lands)
- it's another way to get important lands back, after they got discarded for a Mox or just after a Wasteland
- later in the game it can get your threats back, especially with 1-ofs it's nice to have a way to do that (i played Volrath's Stronghold for a while mostly for this purpose, this is so much better)
- if you have a Crucible in play, milling lands can be even better than drawing them
- it can make your Knights bigger, getting a 5/5 Knight out on Turn 2 is really nice
- it can reset your Top if you don't want the top 3 cards

In general this just helps a lot with the consistancy. Against graveyard hate like Rest in Piece you have to board out some copies, but that's ok.

Eldrazi: I think it's a good matchup overall, but sometimes their hands are just a little too fast. When they go T1 Mimic, T2 TKS it's getting ugly. Your best shot is to get a big blocker in the way, Knight usually does the job, Tracker can get there too but might be not fast enough. I had one game where i went T1 Mox, Grapple, T2 5/5 Knight. That's hard to stop for Eldrazi and can even beat their nutdraws.
If they play white for Displacer things get even more ugly, a big blocker doesn't work any more - i haven't played that much against white lists, but i think it's harder to beat than the colorless version - but on the other hand probably even less consistant.
If you can stabilize against that first wave you have enough tools to win almost every time. Sometimes hiding behind a Glacial Chasm works too, especially if they don't have Wastelands. (With Crucible, Glacial Chasm, Glimmerpost and at least one other post you can hide behind that for a very long time, that works against many decks. Play Chasm -> Sac Glimmerpost -> Pay 2 Life upkeep -> Replay Glimmerpost, gain 2 Life -> Sac Chasm -> Repeat.)
Overall Eldrazi is a good matchup mostly because they don't always start that way. If they have a hand with some prison pieces but not that much pressure, i win almost every time. Every time they don't start with T1 Mimic or T2 TKS, things are looking very good for us. That inconsistancy is the biggest weakness for Eldrazi.

Veteran Explorer would help against Eldrazi, it's always an option - that helped me beat some nutdraws in the past. But i just think it's overall not useful enough.

[thelastbeast]

Omniscience is bonkers.

3-1'd a small weekly with 2x mb.

being able to drop 2 titans, titan + ugin, or snt->omni into casting eldrazi when no access to titan were insane.

I feel it hurt the consistency a little but it raises the ceiling of certain draws to compete with the faster decks.

Ran a MB Intuition which was great.

I also tried Omniscience in a weekly and liked it a whole lot more than I was expecting to. It led me to mulligan a bit more than I usually do, but it put in a lot of work and caught every opponent who saw it way off guard. Showing in Omniscience, playing Newlamog and then dropping Karakas is one of the most wonderful dirty feelings I've ever had with the deck.

[cwcomposer]

So I keep getting positively CRUSHED at my LGS by combo decks. Last night I lost to Storm, Elves, and mono-blue Show and Tell / Hive Mind.

Mono green just does not cut it against these decks.

I looked at some UG lists, and the 15 most expensive cards (that I don't own) come to about $1,200. Ugh. My shop allows "playtest cards" and runs the events as "casual" ones. I could proxy up UG Post, but I'm afraid I'll love that version more and I can't commit to buying the cards right now.

Does anyone have any thoughts or advice? Should I just get used to losing o combo with mono-green? Maybe try to speed up mono green (add a third Candelabra)? Or just go for it and proxy up UG for this shop only?

[Zotmaster]

So I keep getting positively CRUSHED at my LGS by combo decks. Last night I lost to Storm, Elves, and mono-blue Show and Tell / Hive Mind.

Mono green just does not cut it against these decks.

Sphere effects - with Sphere of Resistance being optimal - and Thought-Knot Seer are your main tools for fighting back against combo decks.

[Hencules]

Sphere effects - with Sphere of Resistance being optimal - and Thought-Knot Seer are your main tools for fighting back against combo decks.

A combination of Leyline of sanctity, Surgical extraction, crop rotation and warping wail help me through these bad matchups, but they still remain bad.

[Leshrac82]

I don't think most combo decks are that bad. Game 1 they are, but postboard it should get much better.

Warping Wail, Crop Rotation and Surgical alone can do a lot, Leyline or Sphere of Resistance can help too (and i'm trying out Thoughtseize). Depending on what you are facing, some other cards can be helpful too against some combo decks (Ensnaring Bridge for example against Sneak&Show and Reanimator, or Moment's Peace against Elves).

Most green 12post lists don't play Dark Depths, and i think that's a big mistake especially against combo. All that disruption only buys you time. If you don't kill them fast enough or have to tap out to set that up, the disruption won't be enough to actually win the game. You can probably get around that with cards like Thought-Knot for a combination of more disruption and a win-condition, but if you don't want to do that, Dark Depths is imo the best option.

My winrate against most combo decks is positive - the matchups aren't easy, but very winnable. I don't know how Hencules and others have been doing with my build against combo, but i really don't think it's that bad, especially against the most common combo decks.

My results on xmage against the most common combo decks: Storm 23-13, UB-Reanimator 17-8, Elves 18-6, Sneak&Show 11-8, Belcher 12-4, Manaless Dredge 15-1, BR-Reanimator 11-5, Omnitell 6-3, High Tide 2-7. Some of those wins might have been missplays from my opponents, but some of those losses were missplays on my part too.

[Rock Lee]

So I keep getting positively CRUSHED at my LGS by combo decks. Last night I lost to Storm, Elves, and mono-blue Show and Tell / Hive Mind.

Mono green just does not cut it against these decks.

I looked at some UG lists, and the 15 most expensive cards (that I don't own) come to about $1,200. Ugh. My shop allows "playtest cards" and runs the events as "casual" ones. I could proxy up UG Post, but I'm afraid I'll love that version more and I can't commit to buying the cards right now.

Does anyone have any thoughts or advice? Should I just get used to losing o combo with mono-green? Maybe try to speed up mono green (add a third Candelabra)? Or just go for it and proxy up UG for this shop only?

If you toss down your list, I can tell you how to make it either econo-good vs combo, or give suggestions for keeping it mono green but having game vs combo.

As someone who enjoys both versions, but abhors losing to combo, I feel I can give you a relatively unbiased opinion.

[MGB]

I don't think most combo decks are that bad. Game 1 they are, but postboard it should get much better.

Warping Wail, Crop Rotation and Surgical alone can do a lot, Leyline or Sphere of Resistance can help too (and i'm trying out Thoughtseize). Depending on what you are facing, some other cards can be helpful too against some combo decks (Ensnaring Bridge for example against Sneak&Show and Reanimator, or Moment's Peace against Elves).

Most green 12post lists don't play Dark Depths, and i think that's a big mistake especially against combo. All that disruption only buys you time. If you don't kill them fast enough or have to tap out to set that up, the disruption won't be enough to actually win the game. You can probably get around that with cards like Thought-Knot for a combination of more disruption and a win-condition, but if you don't want to do that, Dark Depths is imo the best option.

My winrate against most combo decks is positive - the matchups aren't easy, but very winnable. I don't know how Hencules and others have been doing with my build against combo, but i really don't think it's that bad, especially against the most common combo decks.

My results on xmage against the most common combo decks: Storm 23-13, UB-Reanimator 17-8, Elves 18-6, Sneak&Show 11-8, Belcher 12-4, Manaless Dredge 15-1, BR-Reanimator 11-5, Omnitell 6-3, High Tide 2-7. Some of those wins might have been missplays from my opponents, but some of those losses were missplays on my part too.

Wow, it sounds as if your deck has overwhelmingly positive matchups across the board.

Are there any decks that pose a bad matchup for your list at all?

[Leshrac82]

Wow, it sounds as if your deck has overwhelmingly positive matchups across the board.

Are there any decks that pose a bad matchup for your list at all?

Among the most common decks, i think Infect is probably my worst matchup (7-11 so far). Otherwise some fringe decks are problematic - High Tide, Oops All Spells, Enchantress. My results against Blood Moon decks have actually been ok (even 4-4 against Mono-Red SneakAttack), but i don't know how long that will last. The next bad thing are going by my results Delver decks, but overall that's still 50/50 and might be even better.

If i want to argue against my deck, one problem might be the usually good 12post matchups against fair decks. I'm 21-11 against Miracles, that's good but i think it could be better with a different list. I'm 19-15 against Shardless, that's very close. I'm 8-9 against Aggro Loam. Personally i'm 27-8 against D&T, but other testers seem to have more problems with that matchup. I think all of those matchups are still favorable, but they get harder and probably a little bit worse. And you have to play really tight, there are a lot of decisions and making the slightly wrong decision can cost you the game. I build the deck, i played hundreds of games with it, and i still lose to my own mistakes sometimes. So if you start testing with it, you will probably make even more mistakes, even if you know your way around normal 12post lists, and that can turn slightly positive matchups into slightly negative matchups.

[cwcomposer]

If you toss down your list, I can tell you how to make it either econo-good vs combo, or give suggestions for keeping it mono green but having game vs combo.

Here's what I'm currently running:

4 Primeval Titan
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pithing Needle
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
4 Warping Wail
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Candelabra of Tawnos


4 Cloudpost

4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Thespian's Stage

4 Forest
2 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

SIDEBOARD:

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Rest In Peace
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Nephalia Academy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Moment's Peace
3 Leyline of Sanctity -- these could become a second Sphere of Resistance and two Thought-Knot Seer

[TheBoozeCube]

So I keep getting positively CRUSHED at my LGS by combo decks. Last night I lost to Storm, Elves, and mono-blue Show and Tell / Hive Mind.

Mono green just does not cut it against these decks.

I looked at some UG lists, and the 15 most expensive cards (that I don't own) come to about $1,200. Ugh. My shop allows "playtest cards" and runs the events as "casual" ones. I could proxy up UG Post, but I'm afraid I'll love that version more and I can't commit to buying the cards right now.

Does anyone have any thoughts or advice? Should I just get used to losing o combo with mono-green? Maybe try to speed up mono green (add a third Candelabra)? Or just go for it and proxy up UG for this shop only?

1) Run 4x Warping Wail main, if you're not already. It's outstanding in all three of those matchups (and most matchups, frankly).

2) Sphere of Resistance and Trinisphere work wonders against Storm and Elves.

3) I'm always in favor of adding more Candles.

4) I haven't seen Hive Mind in forever. But if it's a a real problem at your LGS and you want to go totally next level (at the cost of wasting SB slots), there's always Eon Hub!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rock Lee]

Here's what I'm currently running:

4 Primeval Titan
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pithing Needle
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
4 Warping Wail
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Candelabra of Tawnos


4 Cloudpost

4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Thespian's Stage

4 Forest
2 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

SIDEBOARD:

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Rest In Peace
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Nephalia Academy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Moment's Peace
3 Leyline of Sanctity -- these could become a second Sphere of Resistance and two Thought-Knot Seer

Personally I dislike the leyline strategy for G/w. If you are going for hate cards, bears are your best bet, with crop rotate/surgical/faerie macabre holding them off from combo'ing.teeg does work here, but you really want a 2nd bullet, ala thalia/ethersworn canonist. You can also run silence in this slot, or orim's chant.

Elves just comes down to stopping their turn 3 sorcery, then casting ugin the next turn. your answer could be as simple as running ancient stirrings and more ugin's.

Obviously, both of these matchups benefit hugely from Emrakul, the promised End, especially hive mind.

If you want a U/G list, this is my quick and dirty econo version:

// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [R] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
2 [ST] Island (1)
4 [GTC] Breeding Pool

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [EMN] Emrakul, the Promised End

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 [EMN] Unsubstantiate
4 [OGW] Warping Wall
4 [ROE] Ancient Stirrings

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [FNM] Dismember
SB: 4 [THS] Swan Song

[203995014]

Yeah Candelabra of Tawnos is a very budget friendly card :p

I'm always confused as to how to use Surgical Extraction against storm. What exactly is my goal when casting this card vs. that archetype? Am I trying to extract their discard spells? Their rituals? Do I cast surgical before or after they combo?

[Lormador]

My experiment of trying out an old-school rejected card was a success as an experiment, with the result that DRS is definitely not where the deck wants to be. All I did was turn on my opponent's StP spells in the early turns, giving up virtual card advantage. I doubt he's fast enough against unfair decks to make up for it, either.

Re: Surgical vs. Storm, there are so many different things that can be done with this card that it's hard to give rules that will be universally valid. The Storm player often has an equal number of lines available. Whether they know about the Surgical is important too. It also depends a lot on whether it's ANT vs. TES.

I think my own personal rule of thumb would be to try and extract Dark Ritual against ANT if they start going off quickly, on the theory that they are probably counting on either multiple Dark Rituals or a big boost from Cabal Ritual. If the Extraction is likely to put them off threshold, I'm likely to fire it. Alternatively you can wait on the Surgical if a Past In Flames line looks like their out, but it's pretty dangerous to try and hold something in hand for the last possible moment. It might walk into a discard spell.

The line I would most want to execute due to its sheer beauty would be extracting LEDs (that had been discarded to fuel an Infernal Tutor) with Ad Nauseaum on the stack.

[Leshrac82]

Personally I dislike the leyline strategy for G/w. If you are going for hate cards, bears are your best bet, with crop rotate/surgical/faerie macabre holding them off from combo'ing.teeg does work here, but you really want a 2nd bullet, ala thalia/ethersworn canonist.

Interesting, because that's the opposite of my own experience. I had Gaddock Teeg in my Sideboard for a while, just to turn my GSZ into something useful against combo.

My experience with Teeg was simple:
1. I need a perfect hand to cast it on Turn 1 (and other builds never have that option). On turn 2 it might already be too late, on turn 3 with GSZ it's almost certainly too late.
2. Almost every combo deck, certainly Storm, will board in Abrupt Decay and often just be happy to have a target for that. That did sometimes cost me a game, when i tapped out for Teeg.

Overall it didn't win me many games, usually it came down when i had enough interaction anyway later in the game and wasn't really needed. I cut it from the board and didn't replace it with other combo hate, and that worked fine for me.

Leyline has the big advantage they can't hit it with Abrupt Decay, and you don't need to tap mana to have it (unless you draw it later in the game, then it's usually really bad), so you can keep up your interaction. When every combo deck boards in Abrupt Decay, but you don't have any relevant targets for that (i do have a lot of targets, but no combo hate, unless you count Deathrite and Knight of the Reliquary) that's usually an advantage.

That's the same reason i don't want to go with Spheres and rather try out Thoughtseize with my black splash.



Here's what I'm currently running:
(list)

If i compare that list to my own, you actually play strictly more combo hate than me - so i don't really think that's the big problem. The problem is probably mostly what i wrote earlier: You don't run Dark Depths, just like most other mono-green lists don't. So you don't have a good way to close out the game fast and without having a setup turn where you tap out during your turn - that just doesn't work very often against combo.

My personal rule against almost every combo deck: If you have any interaction, keep up mana for it at every time. Tapping out without winning the same turn will lose you the game most of the time, so just don't do it. Against most combo decks you can tap out Turn 1 on the play, and against Elves there are times where you can tap out, but that's it. With that rule it can be hard for your deck to find a way to win before they can win even against all your disruption.


Yeah Candelabra of Tawnos is a very budget friendly card :p

I'm always confused as to how to use Surgical Extraction against storm. What exactly is my goal when casting this card vs. that archetype? Am I trying to extract their discard spells? Their rituals? Do I cast surgical before or after they combo?

Be patient with Surgical. If they go off with Past in Flames, analyze what they have and what they need and poke a hole in it if you can. If they go off with Ad Nauseam, analyze what you could target and decide if it's better to go for it now or wait to see what they find (LED is pretty much the only thing i would extract in response to Ad Nauseam).
There are very few situations against Storm where i just use Surgical before they go off.


My experiment of trying out an old-school rejected card was a success as an experiment, with the result that DRS is definitely not where the deck wants to be. All I did was turn on my opponent's StP spells in the early turns, giving up virtual card advantage. I doubt he's fast enough against unfair decks to make up for it, either.

The StP argument is irrelevant for my deck, it's completely ok for me if they blow a StP on my Deathrite instead of my Knight or Tracker, so about the unfair decks: It wins games sometimes. Reanimator or Dredge have a real problem to beat a single active Deathrite, Storm has at least some problems with it. I like it more than Gaddock Teeg just as hate against those decks. But it can also be too late, the same arguments i gave against other hateful permanents apply here too - you want to have it on T1, or it's probably a mistake to tap out for it.

For me it is useful enough, if you want it in other lists is very questionable.

[cwcomposer]

Thanks, everyone! I think I'm gonna try the following sideboard:

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Rest In Peace
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Nephalia Academy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Moment's Peace
2 Thought-Knot Seer

I also ordered two copies of Silence, although I don't know what I would take out for them.

A Hive Mind question (as this card always killed me in Modern): Nature's Claim never solved the problem because they could cast a Pact in response and I still get the copy even though Hive Mind gets destroyed. If I Krosan Grip a Hive Mind, however, they can't respond at all, thus saving me from the upkeep loss... correct?

[TheCorgiKing]

Currently testing my R/G brew, don't really have many events in my area to actually get some real games in but my buddy has a few decks proxied up to help me with testing.

My sideboard is kinda all over the place and I'd like to somehow fit Oath of Nissa into the mainboard for Emrakul, but I'd appreciate feedback on the 75

What I have so far:

Lands (26)
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga (3 Taiga/1 Mountain?)
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Vesuva
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Mountain
1 Nephalia Academy (testing vs. 2nd Mountain)

Creatures (9)
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion (flex spot)
2 Minna and Denn, Wildborn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Promised End

Spells (25)
4 Crop Rotation
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Ugin's Nexus
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Kozilek's Return
3 Warping Wall (or 3 GSZ)
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Expedition Map
2 Bonfire of the Damned

Sideboard (15)
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Krosan Grip
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Splendid Reclamation
4x Surgical Extraction
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2x Pyroblast
1x World Breaker

[mykatdied]

Thanks, everyone! I think I'm gonna try the following sideboard:

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Rest In Peace
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Nephalia Academy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Moment's Peace
2 Thought-Knot Seer

I also ordered two copies of Silence, although I don't know what I would take out for them.

A Hive Mind question (as this card always killed me in Modern): Nature's Claim never solved the problem because they could cast a Pact in response and I still get the copy even though Hive Mind gets destroyed. If I Krosan Grip a Hive Mind, however, they can't respond at all, thus saving me from the upkeep loss... correct?

Incorrect. They have priority with hive mind in play. They can retain priority and cast multiple pacts causing triggers to be put on the stack and then you can destroy hive mind, but it won't do any good

[Rock Lee]

Thanks, everyone! I think I'm gonna try the following sideboard:

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Rest In Peace
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Nephalia Academy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Moment's Peace
2 Thought-Knot Seer

I also ordered two copies of Silence, although I don't know what I would take out for them.

A Hive Mind question (as this card always killed me in Modern): Nature's Claim never solved the problem because they could cast a Pact in response and I still get the copy even though Hive Mind gets destroyed. If I Krosan Grip a Hive Mind, however, they can't respond at all, thus saving me from the upkeep loss... correct?

As mykatdied said, think of hive mind the same way you would treat dealing with Omniscience, except their only goal is usually to cast their spells at all, nevermind the resolution of them.

Your best answer to hive mind in mono green is either warping wail on show and tell, or Grip in response to a triggered ability on the stack with show and tell (titan/glimmerpost) then hoping they don't maintain priority and fire off pacts. Titan can usually get enough mana to pay 1-2 pacts, especially with candelabra. Remember you have white, black, green and vesuva can get you blue in mono green and sometimes red if they have volcs.

[mykatdied]

That delicious feeling you get when your opponent doesn't realize you can pay for a pact, but they can't.

[cwcomposer]

Incorrect. They have priority with hive mind in play. They can retain priority and cast multiple pacts causing triggers to be put on the stack and then you can destroy hive mind, but it won't do any good


As mykatdied said, think of hive mind the same way you would treat dealing with Omniscience, except their only goal is usually to cast their spells at all, nevermind the resolution of them.

Your best answer to hive mind in mono green is either warping wail on show and tell, or Grip in response to a triggered ability on the stack with show and tell (titan/glimmerpost) then hoping they don't maintain priority and fire off pacts. Titan can usually get enough mana to pay 1-2 pacts, especially with candelabra. Remember you have white, black, green and vesuva can get you blue in mono green and sometimes red if they have volcs.

Ugh. I hate Hive Mind so much.

I was able to Warping Wail the Show and Tell, then Surgical Extraction the other three copies. But she made it to turn five, cast Hive Mind with two Pact of Negation AND a Summoner's Pact in hand. I had two Vesuvas in play as copies of her Islands, two Forests of my own, and a ton of colorless mana, but couldn't pay the UUUUGGx...


That delicious feeling you get when your opponent doesn't realize you can pay for a pact, but they can't.

Oh that must feel sweet. The closest I ever came to that was in Modern when an opponent played a Pact with the plan of paying for it the next turn, and then I Karn-ed away a key land and he couldn't pay. His response was, "Yeah, I was hoping you wouldn't notice that." :)

[Drixx]

won weekly tournament and still not much changes i'm getting to play ;)

Maverick 2:1
Storm 2:1
Mentor Miracles 2:0
Ur Delver 2:0

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Primeval Titan

4 Brainstrom
3 Crop Rotation
3 Flusterstorm
2 Repeal
1 Trickbind

3 Show and Tell

2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Island
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
2 Vesuva

SB:
1 Beb
1 Crop Rotation
2 Fow
2 Gut Shot
2 krosan Grip
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Trickbind
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Titania,Protector of Argoth
1 Ugin ,the Spirit Dragon

[Neko448]

SB:
1 Beb
1 Crop Rotation
2 Fow
2 Gut Shot
2 krosan Grip
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Trickbind
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Titania,Protector of Argoth
1 Ugin ,the Spirit Dragon

Nice job! What do you have the Gutshots for?

[Drixx]

Nice job! What do you have the Gutshots for?

mostly for xantid swarm its very important removal for 0 mana and still have open mana for other counters so for storm if you have lot of counters in hand with xantid swarm you can do nothing without it just force it and you just don't want to tap in second turn two mana for warping wail or repeal or EE sacrificing i tried to use some permanent hate like trini,chalice but they bring after lot of decays,grips like for miracles that's same i like more top manipulation or brainstorming to protect discard spells but against mono green build players they don't use xantid swarm in just because of warping wail i guess so its better for ug build and another bad creatures like infect,pyromancer/delver,elfs,death&taxes .. yeah gut shot can help i think with bad match up decks

[TheBoozeCube]

Yeah Candelabra of Tawnos is a very budget friendly card :p

I'm always confused as to how to use Surgical Extraction against storm. What exactly is my goal when casting this card vs. that archetype? Am I trying to extract their discard spells? Their rituals? Do I cast surgical before or after they combo?

There are a few more specific situations too:

1. Brainstorm followed by another cantrip. Take out whatever the most valuable card in their yard is. What this really accomplishes, however, is screwing up the draw they just set up with Brainstorm and gives them a random card instead.

2. T1 UB or UR fetchland (esp if you're on the draw). Storm runs a very low land count with a high percentage of fetches. Extracting one early can sometimes slow them down significantly. This one is particularly effective if followed up by Sphere or 3Ball, as it hinders the cantrips they'd rely on to make their land drops. (Note that you'd never, ever want to do this once they have 2 or more lands in play).


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[k_omega]

I know I'm arriving late to this train of comments, but here goes:


So I keep getting positively CRUSHED at my LGS by combo decks. Last night I lost to Storm, Elves, and mono-blue Show and Tell / Hive Mind.

Mono green just does not cut it against these decks.

Having played mono-G, I will say that you can build the deck in a way to make these matchups (first two at least, I have no experience with Hive Mind) acceptable. I maindeck 2 Moment's Peace and sideboard 4 Leyline, 2 Trinisphere, 2 Sphere of Resistance, 3 Surgical. So there are relevant things I can do, I just have to find the hate pieces (I play Ancient Stirrings over GSZ for this reason).


A combination of Leyline of sanctity, Surgical extraction, crop rotation and warping wail help me through these bad matchups, but they still remain bad.

This is my experience as well - I think after board the matchup becomes mediocre in that you can beat their reasonable hands with some reasonable draws but still have little game against their best.


Personally I dislike the leyline strategy for G/w. If you are going for hate cards, bears are your best bet, with crop rotate/surgical/faerie macabre holding them off from combo'ing.teeg does work here, but you really want a 2nd bullet, ala thalia/ethersworn canonist. You can also run silence in this slot, or orim's chant.


I used to dislike Leylines, but changed my mind after getting my bears discarded and decayed. I don't think Thalia et al. can be considered bullets if you can't tutor for them, and even if you could you're looking at dropping them on T3 or later which can easily be too slow. In fact, all our non-Leyline hate pieces come down on T2 or later so the opponent can just discard them beforehand. Leyline prevents that (making it easier to stick the critical second lock piece) while also coming down on T0, preventing the tendrils kill, and being immune to Abrupt Decay.


I'm always confused as to how to use Surgical Extraction against storm. What exactly is my goal when casting this card vs. that archetype? Am I trying to extract their discard spells? Their rituals? Do I cast surgical before or after they combo?

I bring in 3 Surgicals against Storm and have yet to be impressed by them. The best I've managed is to extract Infernal Tutor after they use one to get a second ritual, and I still lost those games (because I didn't find a win con/mulliganed to 4). Honestly, if I didn't have Surgical primarily for other matchups already I would use the sb slot for Thought-Knots and be happier.

[maCHOOga]

@ All the delver feedback. Thanks guys. I've had to take a break from legacy to focus on the SCG invitational "pauper" formats. I should be back to brewing towards the end of the month.

@ CW Composer your list is very similar to mine. I've beat both Elves & storm multiple times G1 with the list. Here are my differences, :


Here's what I'm currently running:

4 Primeval Titan *Ditto*
1 Oracle of Mul Daya *Ditto*
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn *Ditto*
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger *Ditto*
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon *I've gone down to 1 Ugin trying our Emrakool 2.0. You need to make sure that you don't have too top end things.*

3 Sensei's Divining Top *In UG I played 3, I feel like the Game win percentage is exponential with top, I'm always playing 4 in non blue variants.*
3 Pithing Needle *I don't play needle currently, but that makes me slightly weaker to wasteland*
4 Crop Rotation *Ditto*
3 Expedition Map *I've gone down to 2 maps, its slow but efficient.*
4 Warping Wail *I'm at 3 warping wails currently. This is your best card against combo in game 1.*
3 Green Sun's Zenith *Ditto*
2 Candelabra of Tawnos *Currently at 0 Candles. I want to add them back in.*

+4 Thought-Knot Seer. *Provided you don't die on turns 1-2 to combo deck XYZ, this card is bananas.*
+1 Veteran Exploder (Explorer). *Board it out against combo for more hate. Just a minor difference.*
+2 Grapple the Past. *I'm currently figuring out if this card is worth the spots.*

*I'm at 29 total lands maindeck.*
4 Cloudpost *Ditto*
4 Glimmerpost *Ditto*
2 Vesuva *Ditto*
1 Thespian's Stage *Ditto*
4 Forest *I'm running 3.*
2 Savannah *Ditto*
4 Windswept Heath *Ditto*
1 Dryad Arbor *I don't run this card. I don't the reason other than liliana protection.
1 Eye of Ugin *Obv!*
1 Bojuka Bog *I run this card SB, mainly because I can't get it to fit*
1 Maze of Ith *I want to run this somewhere in my 75; but can't find a happy place for it.*
1 Cavern of Souls *I run 2-3 cavern of souls. It's the best land in the deck, next to cloupost/eye.*
1 Glacial Chasm *ditto*
1 Karakas *ditto*
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale *ditto*
+2 Ancient Tombs *These offer accelerated draws and turn 1 warping wails in game 1. Plus you can play top through a daze and spin it on turn 1. Lifeloss is offset by glimmerpost easily. It's also a wasteland magnent from unknown opponents.*




SIDEBOARD:

1 Gaddock Teeg *Ditto*
1 Reclamation Sage *Ditto*
2 Krosan Grip *I've been at 1, I could see the justification for 2.*
2 Rest In Peace *Ditto*
1 Sphere of Resistance *I go from 2-3 spheres of resistance. It's great against all forms of combo.*
1 Nephalia Academy *I haven't test it, but it's my bojuka bog slot.
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Moment's Peace
3 Leyline of Sanctity

My differences aren't much...
-1 Nephalia Academy for Corecive Portal.
-1 Surgical & Krosan Grip for more Sphere of Resistance
-2 Moment's Peace. +2 Ensnaring Bridges, but I think they are flex slots.

Card's I miss:
COP: Red. When this card is GOOD, its insane. It's just so narrow!

[treesgobark]

Hey guys I'm new to The Source and 12 Post (just played my first legacy matches today at my LGS) and I was just looking for some advice on my list and definitely mulligans. I can't seem to get down when to mulligan. I'm running a mono green list w/o candles and tabernacle because of budgetary constraints but I think the rest is fairly standard. Here's my list:

25 Nonland, Noncreature Spells
4 Crop Rotation
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

9 Creature
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

26 Land
6 Forest
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Windswept Heath
2 Vesuva
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor

SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Warping Wail
SB: 2 Dismember
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Thought-Knot Seer
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

Are there special deck formatting tools like autocard or something? I don't wanna be doing this wrong :/
Thanks in advance,
treesgobark

[Zotmaster]

Hey guys I'm new to The Source and 12 Post (just played my first legacy matches today at my LGS) and I was just looking for some advice on my list and definitely mulligans. I can't seem to get down when to mulligan. I'm running a mono green list w/o candles and tabernacle because of budgetary constraints but I think the rest is fairly standard.

You already know my thoughts on where to go in terms of cards, but in terms of mulligans, your openers are often quite important. Leading Cloudpost blind on the play is generally fine, because even if it immediately eats a Wasteland, it cost your opponent his or her first turn as well. However, if the only other land you have is a Vesuva, this becomes much riskier. On the draw, leading Cloudpost is often a very bad idea, because your opponent can still Wasteland it while still having access to at least one mana. You want to have something to do on early turns: turn 1 Top makes me happy and can really help redeem a lot of questionable hands. If at all possible, leave a green source open to force your opponent to at least respect the possibility of a Crop Rotation: especially since a resolved Crop can get you out of a lot of bad situations. When in doubt, remember that the longer the game goes, the closer your win probability approaches 100%. If you take enough turns, you will win: the question is how many turns is "enough". The primer in this thread also has some useful advice regardless of what color(s) you're playing.


Are there special deck formatting tools like autocard or something? I don't wanna be doing this wrong :/

Use (cards) and (/cards) with brackets instead. Quote this post and you can see it if you're still confused: Sorrow's Path

[quantumactivist]

I'm on UG build and had some questions for the experts (still learning!)....

what's the consensus on needle/map maindeck. I've seen a few lists that run them, but also some that don't. I'm currently on 2x of each. What are the merits of cutting them? Is it to shore up the chalice/null rod matchups? Everytime I consider cutting them, some corner case comes up where they're useful. I'd love to put in more interaction in those slots.

also, I live in a Lands-infested area (Baltimore). What are some good strategies/sb cards against Lands?

Are Ensnaring Bridges still being used in sideboards?

I have a Dark Depths in the Tabernacle slot as I don't own one. I like having access to a quick kill but it may be too cute and a wasted slot. Is Maze of Ith an acceptable fill-in for Tabernacle?

I will continue gushing over the Omni's....They've been speeding up my clock by like a turn when I have them. even just putting in an omni->cast titan->post/eye allows you to tutor and cast the big bad the next turn. Is there any cards that could pair well with Omni? I've considered a MB Intuition.

sorry if this is a lot of questions, but this deck gets me stoked.


Thanks!!

[HomicidalRambo]

I'm on UG build and had some questions for the experts (still learning!)....

what's the consensus on needle/map maindeck. I've seen a few lists that run them, but also some that don't. I'm currently on 2x of each. What are the merits of cutting them? Is it to shore up the chalice/null rod matchups? Everytime I consider cutting them, some corner case comes up where they're useful. I'd love to put in more interaction in those slots.

also, I live in a Lands-infested area (Baltimore). What are some good strategies/sb cards against Lands?

Are Ensnaring Bridges still being used in sideboards?

I have a Dark Depths in the Tabernacle slot as I don't own one. I like having access to a quick kill but it may be too cute and a wasted slot. Is Maze of Ith an acceptable fill-in for Tabernacle?

I will continue gushing over the Omni's....They've been speeding up my clock by like a turn when I have them. even just putting in an omni->cast titan->post/eye allows you to tutor and cast the big bad the next turn. Is there any cards that could pair well with Omni? I've considered a MB Intuition.

sorry if this is a lot of questions, but this deck gets me stoked.


Thanks!!

Repeal is my all star card for land decks and many other. I'm very big on the card though for so many reasons, but rocks land decks. One blue and their 20/20 is gone and draw card. Also crop rotate for karakas works great too. Lands is a very easy match up. Make sure bog at the right time early game and vesuva copy when need to to keep their graveyard out. Only worry is wastelands and if they can keep reoccurring them. 4 surgical extraction from SB and I target the 1st one. Also does well for thes stage, dark depths, etc. Pithing needle is useful on thespian stage and wasteland maze and karakas. Name the one u need at right time. I run 2 SB.

Maze works. But with U/G not needed and can be a dead land and decrease consistentcy of deck. It's there in mono green and colorless decks since less options than U splash. Very good with candles.

Maps and needles more a choice on deck style wish to play. 4 crops a must and at least 27 lands if don't run maps. It's a more control build setup all around show n tell since the ramp isn't there and wasteland can target u easier. Why I ran EE and other cards in place. You have to deck test and see what fits your playstyle and meta better.

[Mr. Froggy]

Currently testing my R/G brew, don't really have many events in my area to actually get some real games in but my buddy has a few decks proxied up to help me with testing.

My sideboard is kinda all over the place and I'd like to somehow fit Oath of Nissa into the mainboard for Emrakul, but I'd appreciate feedback on the 75

What I have so far:

Lands (26)
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga (3 Taiga/1 Mountain?)
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Vesuva
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Mountain
1 Nephalia Academy (testing vs. 2nd Mountain)

Creatures (9)
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion (flex spot)
2 Minna and Denn, Wildborn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Promised End

Spells (25)
4 Crop Rotation
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Ugin's Nexus
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Kozilek's Return
3 Warping Wall (or 3 GSZ)
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Expedition Map
2 Bonfire of the Damned

Sideboard (15)
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Krosan Grip
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Splendid Reclamation
4x Surgical Extraction
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2x Pyroblast
1x World Breaker

This looks like my list, how's Bonfire?

[Ecstatic_Conch]

Anybody else excited for this card? Selvala's Stampede (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/conspiracy-take-the-crown/27635-selvalas-stampede).

CMC 4GG Card Text: Council's dilemma — Starting with you, each player votes for wild or free. Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a creature card for each wild vote. Put those creature cards onto the battlefield, then shuffle the rest into your library. You may put a permanent card from your hand onto the battlefield for each free vote.

Since all we play are eldrazi or prime times, this could read 6: put two primeval titans or one Eldrazi and one titan into play. Also it says permanent for the "free" vote so you could put an ugin into play potentially. It just seems all around great and an upgrade to Green Sun Zenith. I'm definitely going to try it out since it seems so strong. It does mean unfortunately we would have to stop playing Trinket Mage if we ran Stampede.

[mykatdied]

Anybody else excited for this card? Selvala's Stampede (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/conspiracy-take-the-crown/27635-selvalas-stampede).

CMC 4GG Card Text: Council's dilemma — Starting with you, each player votes for wild or free. Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a creature card for each wild vote. Put those creature cards onto the battlefield, then shuffle the rest into your library. You may put a permanent card from your hand onto the battlefield for each free vote.

Since all we play are eldrazi or prime times, this could read 6: put two primeval titans or one Eldrazi and one titan into play. Also it says permanent for the "free" vote so you could put an ugin into play potentially. It just seems all around great and an upgrade to Green Sun Zenith. I'm definitely going to try it out since it seems so strong. It does mean unfortunately we would have to stop playing Trinket Mage if we ran Stampede.

Should be a lot of fun.

[Seraphix]

Anybody else excited for this card? Selvala's Stampede (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/conspiracy-take-the-crown/27635-selvalas-stampede).

CMC 4GG Card Text: Council's dilemma — Starting with you, each player votes for wild or free. Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a creature card for each wild vote. Put those creature cards onto the battlefield, then shuffle the rest into your library. You may put a permanent card from your hand onto the battlefield for each free vote.

Since all we play are eldrazi or prime times, this could read 6: put two primeval titans or one Eldrazi and one titan into play. Also it says permanent for the "free" vote so you could put an ugin into play potentially. It just seems all around great and an upgrade to Green Sun Zenith. I'm definitely going to try it out since it seems so strong. It does mean unfortunately we would have to stop playing Trinket Mage if we ran Stampede.

Its not a strict upgrade to GSZ, which has many good qualities. You can cast GSZ early in the game to ramp with Dryad Arbor, and it also allows you to get Titan into play with only 1 Green mana available.

[Zotmaster]

Anybody else excited for this card? Selvala's Stampede (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/conspiracy-take-the-crown/27635-selvalas-stampede).

CMC 4GG Card Text: Council's dilemma — Starting with you, each player votes for wild or free. Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a creature card for each wild vote. Put those creature cards onto the battlefield, then shuffle the rest into your library. You may put a permanent card from your hand onto the battlefield for each free vote.

Since all we play are eldrazi or prime times, this could read 6: put two primeval titans or one Eldrazi and one titan into play. Also it says permanent for the "free" vote so you could put an ugin into play potentially. It just seems all around great and an upgrade to Green Sun Zenith. I'm definitely going to try it out since it seems so strong. It does mean unfortunately we would have to stop playing Trinket Mage if we ran Stampede.

Asymmetrical Eureka or Show and Tell? It's intriguing, and it's possible you could even run Boseiju, Who Shelters All and have it shelter something other than Show and Tell for once. My biggest takeaway from the card is that you can dump planeswalkers with it, possibly opening the door to running Oath of Nissa and other 'walkers. You miss Eldrazi cast triggers and Primeval Titan costs the same amount of mana, and since you're probably running Cavern of Souls anyway, in most cases you'd probably just opt to cast your Titan instead.

I think I might ask some of the players at my LGS what they envision voting for if they ever saw this card, as that kind of information may go a long way in determining what role, if any, the card might play.

[mykatdied]

Some of what can make this card effective is running multiple emrakul so you can ancient stirrings and reveal that you have it in hand tempting them to choose wild, only to flip another that they likely don't think you have. The fact that you don't get cast triggers off legends makes me less likely to want this over show and tell though.

Other mind games could be top to draw, then cast this. Makes an opponent concerned that you put something food into your hand so they may be more interested in letting you flip cards from your deck since you were willing to lose the top to get that card in hand.

Much of it I think comes down to mind games when resolving this. Choosing wild could lead an opponent to choose free thinking you are really digging and may not have anything in hand yet.

[Zotmaster]

Some of what can make this card effective is running multiple emrakul so you can ancient stirrings and reveal that you have it in hand tempting them to choose wild, only to flip another that they likely don't think you have. The fact that you don't get cast triggers off legends makes me less likely to want this over show and tell though.

Other mind games could be top to draw, then cast this. Makes an opponent concerned that you put something food into your hand so they may be more interested in letting you flip cards from your deck since you were willing to lose the top to get that card in hand.

Much of it I think comes down to mind games when resolving this. Choosing wild could lead an opponent to choose free thinking you are really digging and may not have anything in hand yet.

Mind games are always possible, but at least polling the people in my LGS, the general consensus is: "If it resolves, we're voting Free and hoping you can't kill us".

[TheCorgiKing]

This looks like my list, how's Bonfire?

The deck is still clunky as a whole, nowhere near as consistent as the UG or Gw versions I've played, but Miracle-ing Bonfire is a ton of fun. Hitting your opponent for 15 T4 isn't the most practical win-con, but it gets there.

I've also been saved by it when desperately needing boardwipe and my 1-of Ugin is nowhere to be found. The current iteration is below, I still don't know what I'm doing with the SB but it's been tightened up a bit. I'd be interested in seeing your list and hearing your thoughts on the build. I really like Ugin's Nexus (especially over Stranglehold) though it sometimes hurts more than helps because 5 mana is a lot for temporary do-nothing artifact when you're setting the combo up, but it does make your opponent think twice about casting Decay or Krosan Grip.

Lands (26)
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Vesuva
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Mountain
1 Nephalia Academy

Creatures (9)
2 Minna and Denn, Wildborn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Primeval Titan
2 Emrakul, the Promised End

Spells (25)
4 Crop Rotation
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Ugin's Nexus
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Kozilek's Return
3 Warping Wall
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Expedition Map
2 Bonfire of the Damned

Sideboard (15)
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Krosan Grip
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Splendid Reclamation
3x Surgical Extraction
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2x Pyroblast
1x World Breaker

[TheBoozeCube]

How have people's testing experiences with Nephalia Academy been? I keep playing against non-discard decks online, so I can't tell if it's worth slotting in paper for my local weekly tomorrow.

I'm especially interested in how it plays vs Storm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mr. Froggy]

The deck is still clunky as a whole, nowhere near as consistent as the UG or Gw versions I've played, but Miracle-ing Bonfire is a ton of fun. Hitting your opponent for 15 T4 isn't the most practical win-con, but it gets there.

I've also been saved by it when desperately needing boardwipe and my 1-of Ugin is nowhere to be found. The current iteration is below, I still don't know what I'm doing with the SB but it's been tightened up a bit. I'd be interested in seeing your list and hearing your thoughts on the build. I really like Ugin's Nexus (especially over Stranglehold) though it sometimes hurts more than helps because 5 mana is a lot for temporary do-nothing artifact when you're setting the combo up, but it does make your opponent think twice about casting Decay or Krosan Grip.

Lands (26)
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Vesuva
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Mountain
1 Nephalia Academy

Creatures (9)
2 Minna and Denn, Wildborn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Primeval Titan
2 Emrakul, the Promised End

Spells (25)
4 Crop Rotation
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Ugin's Nexus
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Kozilek's Return
3 Warping Wall
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Expedition Map
2 Bonfire of the Damned

Sideboard (15)
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Krosan Grip
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Splendid Reclamation
3x Surgical Extraction
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2x Pyroblast
1x World Breaker

Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Forest
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Taiga
3 Vesuva
4 Wooded Foothills

Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Mina and Denn, Wildborn
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Thought-Knot Seer

Spells
2 Ancient Stirrings
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Crop Rotation
3 Kozilek's Return
3 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Trinisphere
3 Expedition Map
2 Bonfire of the Damned

I changed it and started trying Bonfire on MTGO, haven't been super happy yet though...

[Mr. Froggy]

I went 2-2 with my list at my LGS,

R1: Burn 1-2
R2: S&T 2-1 (turn 2 Emrakul FTW)
R3: Manaless 2-0
R4: Tezzerator 0-2 (he stole game 2 with Leyline/Helm, because I was going to win that one)

[maCHOOga]

So this past weekend at SCG INV/NJ I played Emrakul, the Promised End....

I unlocked the ultimate victory against Ad Neaseum (in modern sadly). I cast Emrakul and took their turn to cast there Ad Neaseum. Whoops, your dead.

Mediocre runs all around. The good news is in legacy. I was finally able to beat delver twice, including the person that beat me with UR in Baltimore. I ended up 4-3 drop in the 9 round event.
Losses were to
#1. Death and Taxes. New Thalia game 3 defeated me... I needed to block, but my dudes decided to enter play tapped.
#2. Goblins. They had wasteland for my tab. I resolved primetime then got attacked back 1 life, then they lightning bolted me.
#3. Miracles. Sometimes you get nut drawn. Cast two thoughtknots in one turn, 1st into a force. 2nd revealed mentor, bloodmoon, flusterstorm and brainstorm. I took mentor, leaving him with bloodmoon. He untapped, deployed bloodmoon, brainstormed into Jace, TMS and a 2nd mentor. I died with all mountains in play; as it was a eldrazi heavy had without basics. :-/ Not sure what correct card was to take in this situation.

[ESG]

Cast two thoughtknots in one turn, 1st into a force. 2nd revealed mentor, bloodmoon, flusterstorm and brainstorm. I took mentor, leaving him with bloodmoon. He untapped, deployed bloodmoon, brainstormed into Jace, TMS and a 2nd mentor. I died with all mountains in play; as it was a eldrazi heavy had without basics. :-/ Not sure what correct card was to take in this situation.

Blood Moon.

[mykatdied]

Blood Moon.

As obvious as this is. I second this

[hymnyou]

I just lost a lot of confidence in this thread.

[Darkenslight]

So this past weekend at SCG INV/NJ I played Emrakul, the Promised End....

I unlocked the ultimate victory against Ad Neaseum (in modern sadly). I cast Emrakul and took their turn to cast there Ad Neaseum. Whoops, your dead.

Mediocre runs all around. The good news is in legacy. I was finally able to beat delver twice, including the person that beat me with UR in Baltimore. I ended up 4-3 drop in the 9 round event.
Losses were to
#1. Death and Taxes. New Thalia game 3 defeated me... I needed to block, but my dudes decided to enter play tapped.
#2. Goblins. They had wasteland for my tab. I resolved primetime then got attacked back 1 life, then they lightning bolted me.
#3. Miracles. Sometimes you get nut drawn. Cast two thoughtknots in one turn, 1st into a force. 2nd revealed mentor, bloodmoon, flusterstorm and brainstorm. I took mentor, leaving him with bloodmoon. He untapped, deployed bloodmoon, brainstormed into Jace, TMS and a 2nd mentor. I died with all mountains in play; as it was a eldrazi heavy had without basics. :-/ Not sure what correct card was to take in this situation.

Yeah, you heavily misplayed in not taking the immediate game-ender. Your Miracles opponent, at that point, would have played their Mentor and BS, leaving not enough mana up for Jace. IF your hand was a C-heavy as you're implying here, then making sure you're unlikely to see another C-source is the wrong call.

[Ehhh]

heyyy Long time no talk guys for those that don't remember me my name is John Kassari (look me up for older 12 Post lists) [Tried UG originally but now on Mono Green Post] and I just bought the 12 Post deck again on MTGO because i'll be grinding Legacy for next years Legacy GP's I usually stream on Twitch.tv/ehhhhhhh

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Crop Rotation
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Primeval Titan
3 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
2 Warping Wail

2 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Savannah
1 Vesuva
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Windswept Heath
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost

3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Rest in Peace
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Dawnstrider
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Thespian's Stage

[TheBoozeCube]

Blood Moon.

This. I didn't even need to know any of the other cards in hand. (Unless they're also holding Armageddon. Or you're holding Krosan Grip.)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TheBoozeCube]

Went 3-1 at Legacy last night. Beat Miracles, Landstill, Manaless Dredge. Lost to Shardless after mulls to 5 both games.

My "match" vs Dredge was on camera. It was pretty brutal, especially since I knew my opponent was on it. But here it is, if anyone's interested:
https://www.twitch.tv/meadhallgames/v/85525480
My match starts at around 2:20:00 (although they never changed the name from my friend who played Belcher in the prior round).


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[Rock Lee]

Yeah, you heavily misplayed in not taking the immediate game-ender. Your Miracles opponent, at that point, would have played their Mentor and BS, leaving not enough mana up for Jace. IF your hand was a C-heavy as you're implying here, then making sure you're unlikely to see another C-source is the wrong call.

To all the machooga naysayers. his board/hand hugely depends. I very often let opponents keep blood moon and let it affect them more than me, or advance my board state and then eot grip it.

You definitely can't tell just from the information provided.

[Hencules]

heyyy Long time no talk guys for those that don't remember me my name is John Kassari (look me up for older 12 Post lists) [Tried UG originally but now on Mono Green Post] and I just bought the 12 Post deck again on MTGO because i'll be grinding Legacy for next years Legacy GP's I usually stream on Twitch.tv/ehhhhhhh

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Crop Rotation
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Primeval Titan
3 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
2 Warping Wail

2 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Savannah
1 Vesuva
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Windswept Heath
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost

3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Rest in Peace
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Dawnstrider
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Thespian's Stage


Hi John, nice to see you're back at grinding 12-post again. Been following your streams and innovations quite some time. Just wondering, I see knight of the reliquary as a beater, but how did you like tireless tracker? I found it quickly take the game over with card advantage.

[Aberosh1819]

+1 to this. Jon's day one run at GP SEA was awesome to behold.

I like pulling Depths and moving Stage to the SB right now. How are you linking this current build against Eldrazi? I recall that you were toying with Moat in a recent build, but that it wasn't playing out to expectations.

[Ehhh]

Hi John, nice to see you're back at grinding 12-post again. Been following your streams and innovations quite some time. Just wondering, I see knight of the reliquary as a beater, but how did you like tireless tracker? I found it quickly take the game over with card advantage.

SO this build has a ton of G/W lands Including the GSZ Dryad Arbor into Knight t2... it plays out a little better because you have more threats overall and Knight is great vs Wasteland allowing you to ramp up quicker and has a great presence in the deck - GSZ Target ... i'm suprised I didn't run him earlier actually. Tireless tracker is also great but my build can play Two colors effectively since I have alot more sources of colored mana. [The guy ramps also] - The main reason I'm trying him out is because I wanted to test Swords in the main to defeat Delver Draws and it has been looking great

[Ehhh]

+1 to this. Jon's day one run at GP SEA was awesome to behold.

I like pulling Depths and moving Stage to the SB right now. How are you linking this current build against Eldrazi? I recall that you were toying with Moat in a recent build, but that it wasn't playing out to expectations.

Yeah I might try the Moat + Dark Depths again .. for now I'm trying the Swords + Knight

[maCHOOga]

Yeah I might try the Moat + Dark Depths again .. for now I'm trying the Swords + Knight

So I ran a similar build to what you posted the other day at an EE5 satelite today. Honestly, I think Dryad arbor is a trap. I had it STPed today, punishing fired, and aggressively FoW your GSZ for zero. I think it lifespan was literally one turn.

I will say it was really sweet when I activated a knight, retrieving a tabernacle against meathooks. He just payed for all the idiots and killed me anyways. My issue with knight today was even with 4x basics and 4x duals, it's really stressing on the mana to sac a color sourced to tutor up a land.

Also, since you're move of a "Maverick-Post" you might be able to support Thalia in SB if you want more combo hate.

I've also been tinkering with Grapple with the Past as well, as a maindeck 2 to 3 of. There is times where it's bananas, but I've already had the scenario where you grapple into a necessary land, accidently send Nulamog to the graveyard, when you need him later down the road. I guess that's just variance.

[Leshrac82]

My build has been using Knight for a while, but there is one important difference: I don't have just Dryad Arbor, i also play Mox Diamond (right now the full 4). That makes it much easier to cast it on turn 2, and still the casting cost is sometimes an issue with Knight - and the reason i'm running only two. I'm not sure how good a list without any Mox Diamonds can support it.

Also, i think Tireless Tracker works really good alongside the Knights - you could just replace one of the Knights with a Tracker to try it, and Tracker doesn't have the color problems.

[moseby]

My build has been using Knight for a while, but there is one important difference: I don't have just Dryad Arbor, i also play Mox Diamond (right now the full 4). That makes it much easier to cast it on turn 2, and still the casting cost is sometimes an issue with Knight - and the reason i'm running only two. I'm not sure how good a list without any Mox Diamonds can support it.

Also, i think Tireless Tracker works really good alongside the Knights - you could just replace one of the Knights with a Tracker to try it, and Tracker doesn't have the color problems.

Hey Leshrac,

Would you mind posting your list?
I would like to give it a look. Thanks

[Leshrac82]

Hey Leshrac,

Would you mind posting your list?
I would like to give it a look. Thanks

I posted it a few pages back, but here it is again, including minor recent changes:

Maindeck (61 cards):


2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Mox Diamond
3 Crop Rotation
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Grapple with the Past
2 Warping Wail
2 Crucible of Worlds


Sideboard:

1 Reclamation Sage
2 Warping Wail
1 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Crop Rotation
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction


There are probably other options to go with the list around the same core.
(For example i'm trying to figure out a good list without the black splash. I had that from the beginning for the Gitrog Monster, but since i cut it, it's almost entirely for sideboard cards. But while Thoughtseize is just one option for combo hate and could be replaced by different cards, Toxic Deluge does a lot of work.)

[TLK]

Anyone seen/tested the MUD/12 Post hybrid? Looks pretty interesting.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13389&d=278519&f=LE

[TTX]

TLK, I have played with a similar deck around six months ago, it suffers from not having Crop Rotation, and late game dead draws. However it can be very explosive, dropping huge threats early. I feel the deck benefits a lot from 1 Staff of Nin and 2 Coercive Portals.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mr. Froggy]

Haven't had this bad of a sequence with the deck in quite some time... Went 1-3 at my local...

R1: Junk (1-2)
Really close games, was a fun match
R2: Eldrazi Stompy (1-2)
Went better than expected, if you can survive the initial onslaught and you stabilize, it's 50/50; Minna and Denn was a house in the game gaining me 4 life per turn.
R3: Miracles (0-2)
Got completely washed by our best match up, I'm talking complete decimation, but heck it happens
R4: -BYE-

Thoughts:

Veteran Explorer is better than I thought, gives me something to GSZ for in the early game, while providing defence.

TKS is not what I thought it was, its too slow. While the ability is killer and a 4/4 for 4 is really good, he's not what I want in the deck.

Kozilek's Return is a beast of a card, complete blowouts sometimes. Its one of the cards that if its needed in the deck G1, its there for you and if its not, it will gladly get SB'ed out.

Chalice of the Void is a killer VS Gr 12Post.. Since I don't have Repeal, makes games a bit harder.


AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL

Don't play MTG on 3hrs of sleep... Some of my matches went downhill because of obvious misplays on my part... Never felt I couldn't win any of them though, which leads me to believe the deck is a contender.

Fun fact, apparently there were 8 Miracles decks at last weeks tournament, out of 24 people. Didn't even play one.

[maCHOOga]

Haven't had this bad of a sequence with the deck in quite some time... Went 1-3 at my local...

Thoughts:

Veteran Explorer is better than I thought, gives me something to GSZ for in the early game, while providing defense.



So my going joke is veteran explorer text really says:
-1/1 Unblockable, Defender, when this creature dies, skip your next two draw steps, take two extra turns.

[TLK]

Haven't had this bad of a sequence with the deck in quite some time... Went 1-3 at my local...

R1: Junk (1-2)
Really close games, was a fun match
R2: Eldrazi Stompy (1-2)
Went better than expected, if you can survive the initial onslaught and you stabilize, it's 50/50; Minna and Denn was a house in the game gaining me 4 life per turn.
R3: Miracles (0-2)
Got completely washed by our best match up, I'm talking complete decimation, but heck it happens
R4: -BYE-

Thoughts:

Veteran Explorer is better than I thought, gives me something to GSZ for in the early game, while providing defence.

TKS is not what I thought it was, its too slow. While the ability is killer and a 4/4 for 4 is really good, he's not what I want in the deck.

Kozilek's Return is a beast of a card, complete blowouts sometimes. Its one of the cards that if its needed in the deck G1, its there for you and if its not, it will gladly get SB'ed out.

Chalice of the Void is a killer VS Gr 12Post.. Since I don't have Repeal, makes games a bit harder.


AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL

Don't play MTG on 3hrs of sleep... Some of my matches went downhill because of obvious misplays on my part... Never felt I couldn't win any of them though, which leads me to believe the deck is a contender.

Fun fact, apparently there were 8 Miracles decks at last weeks tournament, out of 24 people. Didn't even play one.

What's your current/updated list?

[Mr. Froggy]

What's your current/updated list?

Here it is:


1 Bojuka Bog
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmperpost
1 Karakas
4 Snow-covered Forest
2 Taiga
3 Vesuva
4 Wooded Foothills

1 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Ancient Stirrings
4 Crop Rotation
3 Warping Wail
3 Kozilek's Return
3 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Veteran Explorer
1 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Mina and Denn, Wildborn
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

[Davek]

Well, despite any version you're running, does anybody have a good plan against U/R delver?

[Mr. Froggy]

Well, despite any version you're running, does anybody have a good plan against U/R delver?

I hold Kozilek's Return (Warping Wail before the flip) while using baiting out FoWs with my Candelabra, and gain a bunch of life once I get to stabilize at around 4-5 life.

[Zotmaster]

Well, despite any version you're running, does anybody have a good plan against U/R delver?

Always get Glacial Chasm off a Primeval Titan trigger so they can't just Price you to death. Maze and Fog effects can hold back idiots in the mean time.

[quantumactivist]

quick tourney report from a weekly. went 2-1 (split last round) but last match loss due to mis-sideboarding. deck felt great just lost some games due to variance.

after some testing, here's the list I've ended up on.

1 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Pithing Needle

4 Brainstorm
2 Trickbind
1 Cyclonic Rift
4 Crop Rotation
1 Warping Wail

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
4 Primeval Titan

1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Omniscience

4 Show and Tell
1 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam

SB:
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Hydroblast
1 Moment's Peace
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Swan Song
1 Sylvan Library
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Nephalia Academy



I've had maps in the intuition/lftl slot, but I was expecting a lot of chalice decks in the room (and there was). the list is a combination of rocklee's omni-builds with some extra interaction.

Rnd1: White Eldrazi/Hatebears

g1: he plays chalice on 1 with my hand of 3 1drops, snt, titan, 2 lands (vesuva). I copy his ancient tomb with vesuva and snt in primetime. he gets a new Thalia in play, but by this point I'm playing eldrazi.

g2: he mulls to 5, snt -> titan

at this point I look around the room and see like 5 chalice decks, dnt, etc... and am happy about cutting maps.

Rnd2: Lands

g1: early life from the loam allows me to pull out of wastelands. i snt ulamog but he puts in a karakas. game goes for a little while but I'm able to trickbind a crucial thespian's stage to draw a way to get karakas and eventually play a titan. he misplays at one point by sacing a green land for lftl, so I got a little lucky.

g2: he goes forest->exploration->thespian's stage -> mox diamond discarding depths ->lftl, which i respond to with a surgical extraction on the depths, leaving him with no win-cons. he scoops

rnd 3: miracles

we split but play it out. I DEF misboarded as I brought out all my show and tells for interaction. i added boseiju like 5 minutes before the rounds started, and shouldve left them in as I had answers to counters.

g1: I snt in omni with an eldrazi and primetime in hand but he has VENSER in his opener and I get hosed. we have some back and forth but he has timely answers to my threats and has an early mentor. mentor makes this matchup a little worse for us cause they actually have a clock.

g2: long game, ending with a hard-cast titan off a cavern, which gets the eye to cast the emmy. highlight is a trickbind on the miracle trigger of entreat.

g3: i mull to 5, he sticks an uncontested jace and mana-screws/fate-seals me into death.


I still really like the omnis and the intuition package. intuition was a must counter in the miracle/blue matchups, and is very good with omniscience. basically gives you another card that wins off omni. lftl was also great at reseting bad cards from sdt and helping against wastelands, and also getting back fetches for more shuffles. expedition map is probably better if you don't expect a lot of chalice but requires more testing.

the slot I'm not sold on is the warping wail. I've had repeal here which I also don't like. I'm tempted to swap in the spell pierce out of the board, which was very good (countered a jace and blood moon). if we had a good versatile removal spell in our colors I'd be all over it. maybe someone has some suggestions? Ive thought about the song of the dryads plan as a fun-of. I'm very intrigued by running fow..does anyone have experience with it?

Thanks to everyone here on the thread for the advice!

[cin]

Anyone seen/tested the MUD/12 Post hybrid? Looks pretty interesting.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13389&d=278519&f=LE

Hi TLK,

That's me and that's the deck I'm currently piloting =)

Ill post my report here later. =)

[Mr. Froggy]

I think I'd like to try Exploration in the deck, since we play a lot of lands it could maybe speed up the deck a bit.

[Leshrac82]

I think I'd like to try Exploration in the deck, since we play a lot of lands it could maybe speed up the deck a bit.

Afaik that was tried before, and to sum it up: In your opening hand it can be great and speed you up a lot, but it's a dead draw later on. Most 12post lists don't have a way to fill up your hand with lands reasonably fast. If you do try it, you will probably need some form of card advantage engine to get more out of it, like Tireless Tracker.

While i never really tried Exploration in my deck, at some point i did have multiple Oracles in the deck, and going off with Oracle and Tireless Tracker feels great. Overall i went in a different direction, but a deck like that works.



About the cardadvantage engine with Tireless Tracker, currently i'm exploring a different idea for my build trying to go straight GW: Enlightened Tutor.
I don't know if anybody with a white splash has tried that card before, but (just like the Mox Diamonds i'm playing) it has one big problem: It's carddisadvantage. But with 4 Tireless Trackers (and 4 GSZ) i think i might be able to afford that. The upside of Enlightened Tutor is the ability to put some very impactful bullets into the maindeck and even more bullets in low numbers into the sideboard.

Initial testing so far seems fine, so far i have mostly tested this against myself on different Tier 1-2 decks and the first results are promising.

Bullets i'm testing with it: Maindeck: Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Crucible of Worlds, Engineered Explosives, Expedition Map, Courser of Kruphix. (Candelabra and Needle could also work, maybe even Exploration - but the room is limited and i didn't like them so far.) Sideboard: Choke, Ghostly Prison, Ethersworn Canonist, Coercive Portal, Rest in Peace (maybe), Circle of Protection Red (maybe), Song of the Dryads (maybe). (Sphere of Resistance would also work, i started with that and completely destroyed Storm, but i actually needed more help against other decks. There might be even more viable options.)

[mykatdied]

I tried it with circle of protection red out of the board. It was ok, but there wasn't any burn in my meta when I was testing it. So I honestly couldn't tell you if it was worth it. The idea of running "5-8" needles, etc. is nice though

[Hencules]

Afaik that was tried before, and to sum it up: In your opening hand it can be great and speed you up a lot, but it's a dead draw later on. Most 12post lists don't have a way to fill up your hand with lands reasonably fast. If you do try it, you will probably need some form of card advantage engine to get more out of it, like Tireless Tracker.

While i never really tried Exploration in my deck, at some point i did have multiple Oracles in the deck, and going off with Oracle and Tireless Tracker feels great. Overall i went in a different direction, but a deck like that works.



About the cardadvantage engine with Tireless Tracker, currently i'm exploring a different idea for my build trying to go straight GW: Enlightened Tutor.
I don't know if anybody with a white splash has tried that card before, but (just like the Mox Diamonds i'm playing) it has one big problem: It's carddisadvantage. But with 4 Tireless Trackers (and 4 GSZ) i think i might be able to afford that. The upside of Enlightened Tutor is the ability to put some very impactful bullets into the maindeck and even more bullets in low numbers into the sideboard.

Initial testing so far seems fine, so far i have mostly tested this against myself on different Tier 1-2 decks and the first results are promising.

Bullets i'm testing with it: Maindeck: Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Crucible of Worlds, Engineered Explosives, Expedition Map, Courser of Kruphix. (Candelabra and Needle could also work, maybe even Exploration - but the room is limited and i didn't like them so far.) Sideboard: Choke, Ghostly Prison, Ethersworn Canonist, Coercive Portal, Rest in Peace (maybe), Circle of Protection Red (maybe), Song of the Dryads (maybe). (Sphere of Resistance would also work, i started with that and completely destroyed Storm, but i actually needed more help against other decks. There might be even more viable options.)

Would you mind sharing your list? I'd love to help some doing tests and I'm curious if it out performs the version with white.

[Seraphix]

About the cardadvantage engine with Tireless Tracker, currently i'm exploring a different idea for my build trying to go straight GW: Enlightened Tutor.
I don't know if anybody with a white splash has tried that card before, but (just like the Mox Diamonds i'm playing) it has one big problem: It's carddisadvantage. But with 4 Tireless Trackers (and 4 GSZ) i think i might be able to afford that. The upside of Enlightened Tutor is the ability to put some very impactful bullets into the maindeck and even more bullets in low numbers into the sideboard.

Initial testing so far seems fine, so far i have mostly tested this against myself on different Tier 1-2 decks and the first results are promising.

Bullets i'm testing with it: Maindeck: Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Crucible of Worlds, Engineered Explosives, Expedition Map, Courser of Kruphix. (Candelabra and Needle could also work, maybe even Exploration - but the room is limited and i didn't like them so far.) Sideboard: Choke, Ghostly Prison, Ethersworn Canonist, Coercive Portal, Rest in Peace (maybe), Circle of Protection Red (maybe), Song of the Dryads (maybe). (Sphere of Resistance would also work, i started with that and completely destroyed Storm, but i actually needed more help against other decks. There might be even more viable options.)

I've played E-Tutor in my Gw SB before (w/Canonist, RIP, Spheres) and while it looks good in theory I was unimpressed by it. It felt durdly, not to mention my list (and probably many Gw lists) aren't geared to very consistently have access to W on turn 1. I'd rather have "faster", more narrow combo hate like Surgical, Leyline, or Mindbreak Trap, or something like G. Teeg who fits naturally into the GSZ package already played. Never tried it maindeck or with fair matchups in mind, but I'd say your plan merits testing at least.

[Leshrac82]

Would you mind sharing your list? I'd love to help some doing tests and I'm curious if it out performs the version with white.

This is the current list:

Maindeck (61 cards):


2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Savannah
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost

1 Dryad Arbor
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Mox Diamond
3 Crop Rotation
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Warping Wail
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere
1 Expedition Map


Sideboard:


1 Reclamation Sage
2 Warping Wail
1 Krosan Grip
1 Gadock Teeg
1 Crop Rotation
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Choke
1 Song of the Dryads
1 Coercive Portal
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Circle of Protection: Red


This list is far less tested than my other list, and i'm still undecided on some cards.

Do i want Pithing Needle somewhere? Probably, just whenever i had it in play i had to play Engineered Explosives for 1 shortly after, so i cut it eventually.
Candelabra is probably not that great in my build in general, i tested it for a few games and didn't like it. Exploration was even worse. Still could be options.
Are 2 Top enough with the 2 Tutors to find it? I had to make room somewhere.
Is the lack of graveyard hate a problem? I cut my Surgicals from the board, tried Rest in Peace but didn't like it so far, so i cut all my additional graveyard hate and it still seems fine, but that probably needs more testing. Tormods Crypt or Relic of Progenitus would be other options that don't interfer with my graveyard.
Is CoP Red worth it? Don't know yet. Same with Song of the Dryads, with my other list i tested that a little bit and it was ok enough to keep it in mind, with Tutor it might be good enough (in that spot could be another Krosan Grip, or maybe a Seal of Primordium - something that can deal with Blood Moon).

Compared to my other list, i replaced Titania with a second Primetime (mostly because i was planning to play Rest in Peace, but overall it might be better) and cut the Ghost Quarter/Wasteland because that got a lot weaker without Titania. I replaced Oracle with Courser, overall i think Oracle is slightly better, but the option to tutor up Courser is relevant.

Coercive Portal i added after some testing against Shardless, that looked really bad until i went up to 4 Tracker, 4 GSZ and the Portal in the board. Might still be not that great.


The combination of Choke and Ghostly Prison, maybe even with Tabernacle, can be a lock against many blue-based creature decks, especially every Delver deck, but it's good against Miracles too. Storm is probably fine (i started with much more hate, but this seems to be enough). Eldrazi is a good matchup anyway, Bridge maindeck makes it even better.

[Mr. Froggy]

Alright, what is you guys' plan vs Aluren? I feel the matchup is nearly unwinnable. Miracles probably feels like this playing vs us... Now I know the feeling...

[Zotmaster]

Alright, what is you guys' plan vs Aluren? I feel the matchup is nearly unwinnable. Miracles probably feels like this playing vs us... Now I know the feeling...

It's pretty bad. I have a guy at my LGS who likes to troll with it. Generally, game 1 is absolutely awful unless you nut draw or know what you're playing and get down an early Needle for Cavern Harpy. After that, Grip can do a lot of work since they can't respond to it. The last thing to remember, that people seem to often forget, is that Aluren is symmetrical. This usually won't matter, but if you're running something like Ethersworn Canonist out of the board, you might have an opportunity to interrupt them.

[Ehhh]

Hey guys,

I'm going to record my 12 Post games and give my best commentary for players that are interested in improving their game.
My plan is to upload them on Youtube (link will be provided later when I have my channel setup) to archive my progress as well as entertainment value for streaming.. I plan to attend 2 Legacy GPs next year so I want to win them and understand every match to the best of my ability and adjust my list to the meta. This is the start of my build 09/04/2016.

find me at Twitch.tv/ehhhhhhh [Today's Past Broadcast will include Games and Commentary]

3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Moat
4 Primeval Titan
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Warping Wail
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
3 Crop Rotation
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Vesuva
4 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
1 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Karakas
1 Thespian's Stage
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Pithing Needle

1 Dawnstrider
2 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Rest in Peace

[cin]

[QUOTE=TTX;967655]TLK, I have played with a similar deck around six months ago, it suffers from not having Crop Rotation, and late game dead draws. However it can be very explosive, dropping huge threats early. I feel the deck benefits a lot from 1 Staff of Nin and 2 Coercive Portals.

Hi TTX,

I have played UG Post before and it has a lot of mana screw in colors, the MUD Based Post you've piloted before uses those draw acceleration. but My list is more accurate to cast biggies asap than the MUD based build you've tried.

I also tried the more aggro build, that uses City of Traitors and with Wurmcoils.

For me, just my opinion. I really prefer the MUD Based Post because of accuracy and mana stability the deck has compared to the colored Posts.

[djxstream]

This is the current list:

Maindeck (61 cards):


2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Savannah
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost

1 Dryad Arbor
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Mox Diamond
3 Crop Rotation
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Warping Wail
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere
1 Expedition Map


Sideboard:


1 Reclamation Sage
2 Warping Wail
1 Krosan Grip
1 Gadock Teeg
1 Crop Rotation
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Choke
1 Song of the Dryads
1 Coercive Portal
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Circle of Protection: Red




I think Riftstone Portal can find a home here...

10 ways to get a land in the graveyard, plus 4 lands that dont tap for mana + bog + fetchlands when they can no longer fetch

When i used portal in RG Lands, a mox/portal in the opener was nearly an auto keep. (sidenote, i've since cut it to make room for a ghost quarter, but when it was there, it was good)

[Ehhh]

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCE0WvJ7tTsUZmMrbGqmIjEg

here is my youtube account just for starters. I uploaded a few of my recent sessions with G/W 12 Post also Twitch.tv/ehhhhhhh is where I stream if you guys want to check me out follow!

Current Decklist -

3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Moat
4 Primeval Titan
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Warping Wail
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
3 Crop Rotation
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Vesuva
4 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
1 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Karakas
1 Thespian's Stage
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Pithing Needle

1 Dawnstrider
2 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Rest in Peace

[Razorking]

Alrighty Lads, I have never posted here but have read the entire thread back to back. I have been playing 12 post for a while, about a year. I have changed the version of the deck i had been playing over the time I had this deck. My first iteration was John Kassari's deck with his double dryad arbor Green Sun package. The first thing i am going to do is show off my current deck list and chomp into the cards: why i have included or excluded popular pics.
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Maindeck (60)

LANDS:::
Cloudpost x4
Tabernacle x1
Ancient tomb x2
Glimmerpost x4
Vesusva x4
Wooded Foothills x3
Forest x4
Nephalia Academy x1
Maze of Ith x1
Karakas x1
Bojuka Bog x1
Glacial Chasm x1
Cavern of Souls x1
Eye of ugin x1

CREATURES:::
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn x1
Ulamog, The Ceaseless Hunger x1
Kozilek, The Great Distortion x1
Emrakul, The Promised End x1
PRIME TIME x4

WALKERS:::
Ugin x2

Sorceries/Instants:::
Ancient Stirrings x4
Crop Rotation x4
Warping Wail x4

Artifact:::
Sensei's Diving Top x3
Expodition Map x2
Candelabra of Tawnos x4


Sideboard (15)
Surgical Extraction x1
Platinum Angel x1
Krosan Grip x2
Silent arbiter x1
Oblivion Stone x1
Splendid Reclamation x1
Pithing Needle x3
Elephant Grass x2
Leyline of Sanctity x3

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"Woah, where is the blue?????"
"Ancient Tomb?"
"4 Candles???"

Ya, ya. This is Mono green. I have reasons. First, show and tell is a weird card; SOT creates and ultimatum about showing against a fast deck or having nothing else to do in the face of disruption from decks like Delver.

Ancient Tomb is a monster. We only need 2, The Tomb digs us out of a hole caused by wastelands and other denial effects. Fast mana really quick allows for sticks of a Prime Time very effectively and they are a great target for Crop Rotations. When you are done with their use, Rotate again to trade them for Posts. The Tomb bridges a gap in disruptive match ups. A Titan resolved is often enough to win you the game all by its self.

Candle is stupidly powerful. This deck plays a bit like a Greener, Toolboxier, more efficient version of MUD. Turning a few posts into ridiculous mana or making 1 forest produce 2 mana for a Prime Time is just Gravy.

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Lets talk the important lands: Academy, Tomb, 3 Fetches, No dark depths/ Stage, including tabernacle and chasm maindeck.

Academy is the fight against discard. Personally this comes in mostly against storm as crop rotation can get this at instant speed and allow for the storm matchup to be much easier. This can combine with top to prevent a storm player from ever stripping your Warping wail/ crop rotations.

Tomb has been explained above :)

3 Fetches, optimal shuffles. Got three tops. Need it . Can use other green fetches.

Stage and depths, if i wanted this, i would be playing lands. That's not how i roll.

Tabernacle/chasm: We can tutor for bullets easy. Keep them main, it pays off. Also Chasm and tomb interact very well. I find myself prime timing early with help from a tomb to get a chasm and something else. The titan will win the game before our self clock runs out.

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Soceries and stuff

Warping Wail: Yes, this is actually the butter for the bread. Counters, tokens, exile effects, it really is that good. Trust me. x4 everyday m8.

Rotate and stirrings: Rotate for posts, stirrings for threats and candles

NO GSZ. It's just too slow. Dryad arbor is a dead card, greensun gets hit by Teeg. There are reason i have strayed from it. It's good, not for me or my meta.

NO Show and Tell. Not my cup of tea. Going for this put you behind in hard casting BIG MAMA herself. Emrakul seals games and throws the key away when you hard cast her.

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Artifacts:

Candle: Explained above

Map: gets cavern agaisnt blue, gets post when i need to be fast

No Amulet of Vigor: IT's good, way better than the community treats it. When comboed with candle it can provide for explosive starts so ridiculous it hurts. The card seems Win More, i am trying it out in my spare time. I haven't given up hope.

TOP: Need as many as possiable, you want one each game but hate multiples. 4 is too many, 1/2 might be correct, IDK.
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Sideboard is a work in progress and very meta dependent. Customize side for what you face. I would love to hear thoughts.

[Kozilek]

This list is far less tested than my other list, and i'm still undecided on some cards.


Seeing as you shaved black and you're running some more silver bullet artifacts with E-Tutors, have you given any thought to squeezing in a Trop and an Academy Ruins?

[Leshrac82]

I think Riftstone Portal can find a home here...

10 ways to get a land in the graveyard, plus 4 lands that dont tap for mana + bog + fetchlands when they can no longer fetch

When i used portal in RG Lands, a mox/portal in the opener was nearly an auto keep. (sidenote, i've since cut it to make room for a ghost quarter, but when it was there, it was good)

I tried it for a few games, but i don't really see it making the cut. I have to cut a colored source for it, and so far every time i had it, i would have prefered a Forest instead. If you get it with Mox Diamond it's nice, but that's just not often enough compared to the games where you want the colored mana and have a Riftstone Portal instead. Usually, when i can put a Riftstone Portal into the graveyard that means i already have access to green mana, so it get's less useful. Lands is playing more land that can't produce mana, can get it much more reliably into the graveyard and for Lands it can solve issues with Blood Moon much better - when i lose to Blood Moon it's usually not because i don't have green or white mana, it's because i can't ramp with Cloudposts.


Seeing as you shaved black and you're running some more silver bullet artifacts with E-Tutors, have you given any thought to squeezing in a Trop and an Academy Ruins?

Yes. I don't know if it's good enough, but that was one of the first ideas i had. Academy Ruins fits with Explosives, Expedition Map and (what i would definitely play with it) Tormod's Crypt as a Sideboard card, and can of course get a lot of other stuff back. I had that idea even before i came up with this list, i tried Trinket Mage before i went to Enlightened Tutor instead for the bigger and much better toolbox. And then i cut the Ruins because there were no blue cards left in the deck.

From the games i tested with Academy Ruins, about as often as the Ruins did something useful, it mattered that the mana was slightly worse. I really can't tell yet what's better - if i had other reasons to splash blue i would probably play with the Ruins, but there just aren't many reasonable sideboard cards. (Of course i could go heavy blue and put cards like Flusterstorm in the board, but that's not my plan with this deck. What i'm looking for would be interesting 1-ofs for the board. The only card i found so far is Chill.)

I'm even playing around with a 4-color version, but that one is probably just worse than any of the other options (might still give me some ideas though).