[Deck] 12 Post

[maCHOOga]

Very well. Here's what I played at EE6 (went 5-3

Sideboard:
3 Leyline of Sanctity, Trinisphere
2 Krosan Grip, Rest in Peace, Pithing Needle
1 Dawnstrider, Dragonlord Dromoka, Engineered Explosives



So what do you bring in Dragonlord Dromoka in against? I noticed it takes the gaddock Teeg spot

At all, I'll post my current GW build next time when I sit down at Mtgo.

[k_omega]

So what do you bring in Dragonlord Dromoka in against? I noticed it takes the Gaddock Teeg spot.

It's there for Delver and, to a lesser extent, Burn. Against Delver it is a bomb that blocks fliers and gains life that they essentially can't kill (being out of Delver/Clique + Bolt range), that can be resolved without first finding a Cavern, and that also protects subsequent bombs and Crop Rotations. Also it can be fetched with GSZ. Against Burn, it's there to get in play just before you are forced to sacrifice a Glacial Chasm. Ordinarily the opponent could Price you in your upkeep afterward and you die, but Dromoka gives you one unmolested turn to attack with a lethal team, or at least gain 5 life and get some Titan triggers.

Unfortunately I have yet to actually draw or successfully GSZ for Dromoka in any game where I brought it in, so the above explanation is all theoretical. I cut Gaddock Teeg because I found it far too vulnerable to removal, it shuts down my own GSZs, Ugins, and Engineered Explosives, it can't come down before turn 3 through GSZ or requires you to find G and W on turn 2 which is tough, it doesn't stop the opponent from cantripping for answers, and it does nothing in the Delver matchup which I wanted to improve.

[Roweboater]

I'm currently on GW. Looking for some good video footage of gameplay of this version. I've watched everything that has been provided by SCG. Does anyone know of any other good resources?

[maCHOOga]

Here is my current list with GW I've been tinkering with. Sorry for the bizzare order, blame MTGO.

1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Expedition Map
3 Forest
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
3 Crop Rotation
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Windswept Heath
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
3 Savannah
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Karakas
2 Primeval Titan
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Primeval Titan
1 Veteran Explorer
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Renegade Rallier
3 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Khalni Garden
1 Candelabra of Tawnos

1 Krosan Grip
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Walking Ballista
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blessed Alliance

[Postman]

Tried the traditional UG version, actually Rock Lee's list with two changes, against 4c Loam. IMO a difficult MU, and I got crushed 0-2. Changes made to the list: -1 Tropical Island, - 1 Ulamog, +1 Verdant Catacombs, +1 Kozilek. The match has been captured on cam, and I post the link below. It's only for your entertainment, and it was me who lost, not the deck! ;-)

https://youtu.be/baBlYpXj3dk


Gesendet von meinem ONEPLUS A3003 mit Tapatalk

[Rock Lee]

Tried the traditional UG version, actually Rock Lee's list with two changes, against 4c Loam. IMO a difficult MU, and I got crushed 0-2. Changes made to the list: -1 Tropical Island, - 1 Ulamog, +1 Verdant Catacombs, +1 Kozilek. The match has been captured on cam, and I post the link below. It's only for your entertainment, and it was me who lost, not the deck! ;-)

https://youtu.be/baBlYpXj3dk


Gesendet von meinem ONEPLUS A3003 mit Tapatalk

Watched your match. good example of how facing knight is one of the most challenging aspects of the deck. Also why I moved upto 3 show and tell. The matchup simply blows apart with its casting.

[Postman]

Watched your match. good example of how facing knight is one of the most challenging aspects of the deck. Also why I moved upto 3 show and tell. The matchup simply blows apart with its casting.
Thanks for your feedback! I always play 4 Show and Tell in my BUG build, despite the fact that sometimes it "only" acts as an Explore or "forces" SDT through Chalice @1😁 How do you fight against Elves?

[Postman]

I will give this God a try! Has flying, indestructable. Activated ability is "draw a card, you may return a land you control to your hand". Sounds pretty good to me! https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170404/848f7f53cc887443e50ae6f195351a36.jpg

[MechTactical]

Rock welcome back man!

I’ve been too busy with work and other stuff to play in live events in recent months, but I have been brewing late at nights :laugh: Tested several angles and some cards that I haven’t seen in use lately. I’ll keep it short and exclude the really cute stuff I messed with, though much of the below is still very much adorable :wink:

Tried to make a dreadnought post work, utilizing phyrexian dreadnought, trinket mage, stifle and trickbind. Fun to play, but I didn’t have much success with it.
Tried a mimic build, utilizing progenitor mimic + terastodon. While the combo is really badass, if you can get it online, the build itself doesn’t work that well. I guess you need natural order for this combo.
Currently, I’m testing a shardless build, using shardless agent, coiling oracle and glint-nest Crane. Still figuring out how many artifacts to run for crane. Currently, I’m at 15 mainboard and it seems to be okay. One gets so much value out of casting shardless -> crane -> fetching an artifact or shardless -> oracle -> extra land drop or card.
I tried to splash B for decay and deluge, but I don’t like it, I find it too inconsistent and confusing, I guess my mind is operating strictly on UG basis :confused:. Also tried to play ancestral visions but didn’t like it. Maybe the best thing that will come out of this is glint-nest crane. I have a feeling that the deck could really benefit by including this card, at least the artifact-heavy versions. Though it’s a pity it’s a 1/3 flyer instead of a 2/2 or something – doesn’t kill a flipped Delver.

Cards:
Fact or fiction – I really like this one as a 1-2 of. Finds everything you need. It is a bit expensive, but it gets the job done. Has anyone been using it lately? The fact that it's not color demanding and a 4cmc that digs deep, got me out of being locked out of games on several occasions, for example, chalice locking me out of brainstorm/top or a super annoying Sanctum Prelate or two (ugh i hate this card) naming ridiculous numbers. But they never ever name 4. :laugh: It could also be complemented by some graveyard recursion that’s available to us, but I don’t like going down that path in general.
Cyclonic Rift – I’m still undecided on this one. Doesn’t draw you a card and you can’t bounce your stuff but on the other hand, it beats chalice, and you can cascade into it or use it in an omni build. I originally started to play it in my omni build, since repeal doesn’t work with omni. When you can overload this puppy, you’re usually on your way to victory.
Cards I noticed but haven’t tested yet:
Bind – did anyone test with this card in the past? Seems like it has a little bit of repeal / trickbind combined into a green card :eyebrow:
Pulse of Murasa – could be useful for certain builds, much like grapple, though you don’t have to dredge yourself. Gain 6 life could also be a nice bonus.

@Postman I don’t think indestructible matters all that much in legacy and the fact that you need 7 cards in hand to be able to block or attack gives me pause. His ability looks better since you can draw a card and save a land with a single activation, though the activation is a bit expensive.

[Postman]

I really like the B - splash, playing 3 Toxic Deluge. This card is just amazing, cleaning the battlefield by paying 3 Mana plus 2-3 life is a cool deal to me. It helps against Elves (sometimes, depending on who starts the game), D&T, all kinds of Delver, Pyromancer etc... But even killed a fatty against Reanimator 😎

I don't want to use the God as a creature, just to draw an extra card EOT in midgame or to avoid a Wasteland activation

[Skriger]

I will give this God a try! Has flying, indestructable. Activated ability is "draw a card, you may return a land you control to your hand". Sounds pretty good to me! https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170404/848f7f53cc887443e50ae6f195351a36.jpg

I don't think it really feeds into card advantage as you would think. Also, the land return i guess could be a decent answer to a wasteland but past that not helpful to put yourself back a land. Having enough cards in hand for it to attack is also a big problem. You shouldn't be holding onto too many cards just to get this thing to attack. Swords kills it. Terminus tucks it away. Just not seeing its usefulness. I rather run Crucible of Worlds and / or Explore for the same abilities.

[jofer]

Champion of Rhonas in AKH definitely looks interesting... It could work in some of the mono green or colorless/green builds where S&T isn't an option.

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/championofrhonas.jpg

[ESG]

Champion of Rhonas in AKH definitely looks interesting... It could work in some of the mono green or colorless/green builds where S&T isn't an option.

Isn't this basically just Elvish Piper unless you have a way of giving it haste?

[jofer]

Isn't this basically just Elvish Piper unless you have a way of giving it haste?

Ah, yeah. You're absolutely right. I missed that completely.

[Zotmaster]

Unrelated to current spoilers. I was digging through some of my old decklists from when I streamed at least occasionally and found a bunch of brews. A few seemed so shitty that I was too scared to even try running them, but I've been really low on inspiration with the deck so I thought I'd dump them here to see if anybody could take the ideas, run with them, and make them not bad. Bad names are just a bonus. Formatting is from Cockatrice and I'm too lazy to sort it. I don't know if or when I'll start streaming again, but like I said, right now I'm out of ideas.

Tax Post

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Crop Rotation
5 Forest
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Elephant Grass
1 Wastes
4 Expedition Map
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Lodestone Golem
SB: 3 Thought-Knot Seer
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Spatial Contortion
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker

-----

Lifegain Post

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Retreat to Kazandu
2 Alhammarret's Archive
3 Oracle of Mul Daya
3 Courser of Kruphix
8 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Staff of Domination
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Spatial Contortion
SB: 1 Wastes
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Thought-Knot Seer

-----

Crucible Post

4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Wastes
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Expedition Map
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Crop Rotation
4 Elephant Grass
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
7 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Wasteland
2 Karn Liberated
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Spatial Contortion
SB: 2 Thought-Knot Seer

-----

16-Post

4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
5 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
4 Oracle of Mul Daya
3 Maze of Ith
1 Wasteland
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Crop Rotation
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Avenger of Zendikar
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Thought-Knot Seer
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 2 Dismember
SB: 1 World Breaker
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

-----

And probably the stupidest idea I've come up with, that would need a ton of work if it could work at all...

12-Post Superfriends

4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
6 Forest
4 Eureka
4 Oath of Nissa
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated
2 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
3 Expedition Map
3 Crop Rotation
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Misty Rainforest
SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Moment's Peace
SB: 2 Cursed Totem
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance

[mykatdied]

And probably the stupidest idea I've come up with, that would need a ton of work if it could work at all...

12-Post Superfriends

4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
6 Forest
4 Eureka
4 Oath of Nissa
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated
2 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
3 Expedition Map
3 Crop Rotation
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Misty Rainforest
SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Moment's Peace
SB: 2 Cursed Totem
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance

http://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2016/04/32966/
This is what I tried and tested for a bit. It was semi-viable but certainly needed some updating which I have done. This is where I am currently. Post board the combo match up is super easy, pre-board you have a decent fair match up.
12 post walking rug (62)

// Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
2 Forest
4 Glimmerpost
1 Island
1 Karakas
2 Maze of Ith
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Tropical Island
4 Vesuva
1 Volcanic Island

// Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
3 Crop Rotation
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Kozilek's Return
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
2 Oath of Jace
4 Oath of Nissa
2 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3 Teferi's Response

[Zotmaster]

http://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2016/04/32966/
This is what I tried and tested for a bit. It was semi-viable but certainly needed some updating which I have done. This is where I am currently. Post board the combo match up is super easy, pre-board you have a decent fair match up.

I'm glad I'm not the only one to try something ridiculous. I'm curious as to your choice of Walkers, though. I chose mine based on the fact that they all answer permanents and they all can win the game by themselves. I still want to find a way to make Eureka work, but perhaps dipping into another color - or blue, at the very least - like you did might make something like this possible.

Or maybe it's just ridiculous and we're ridiculous too. Who knows?

[Postman]

Not sure, but there may be a UG Eldrazi Post Deck in the Top 8 @Worcester, at least the commentators just told the viewers. Who is the pilot?🤷🏻*♂️ Good luck, Mr X! 👍

[Zotmaster]

Not sure, but there may be a UG Eldrazi Post Deck in the Top 8 @Worcester, at least the commentators just told the viewers. Who is the pilot?🤷🏻*♂️ Good luck, Mr X! 👍

into_play is there I believe, so it's probably him!

[Postman]

into_play is there I believe, so it's probably him!
Let's hope it's him and we'll see him on cam... @finals [emoji16]

[Drixx]

Nice :)

[hymnyou]

into_play is there I believe, so it's probably him!

pretty sure Tony Murata is pilot

[Zotmaster]

Tony is in as the 4-seed!

EDIT: If you subscribe to scgtour on Twitch, they're having a vote on what I assume will be the feature match. Tony is winning right now, but that shouldn't stop you. Vote B if you're subbed!

https://www.twitch.tv/scgtour

[203995014]

Unfortunately Tony Murata lost 0-2 vs Big Red, possibly the worst matchup for 12-post in the entire format. Such a shame.

[Drixx]

Congrats to Tony for reaching nice standing position of this deck after long time was hoping that worst matchup will miss him but not .. pity

[Razorking]

Congrats Tony. I watch you playing and your deck is sweet. I played mono green post to 36th and lost horrendously to re animator on stream when I was 5-0. LOL. It was my first tourney and i was super happy with my decklist, but right now i am trying to find space for plat emperion. Price of Progress is super good right now. U/R delver and burn are going to be very popular soon since 4 color control and 3/4 color delvers are doing so well. I was super satisfied with Conduit of Ruin but my maindeck warping wails kinda felt sucky. I am gonna replace them with 1 emperion and 1 walking ballista and give that a shot.

[MechTactical]

Congrats!

this one could be playable? :really:
http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/vizierofthemenagerie.html

Vizier of the Menagerie
3G
Creature - Naga Cleric
You may look at the top card of your library. (You may do this at any time.)

You may cast the top card of your library if it's a creature card.

You may spend mana as though it were mana of any type to cast creature spells.

[Rock Lee]

Great showing Tony Murata. Watched your matches through the day while I was there. Solid play. Met quite a few of your opponents throughout the day who wanted to vent to me after losing to you. :D

[maCHOOga]

Congrats to Razorking for a day 2 & into_play for the top8. Unfortunately, both camera matches from this weekend looked abysmal for 12post. :-(

@ Razorking, they flashed your sideboard on coverage, but I was intrigued what was contained in your maindeck. I saw the Conduit, but wondered what other spice was inside. Can you share your list?

@ Into_Play. Any reason why you opted for two tabernacles over a different 15th card?

[StateFarmEmployee]

I played a similar list to Rock Lee's at the open and went 2-4. Got to meet @Razorking after I got killed by storm which was cool and got some insight into the very unique build that seemed to perform well. Congrats to both @Razorking and @into_play for your performances!

[caw_86]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_w08Rh46uHS.png

[Artemis]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_w08Rh46uHS.png

Having X in the cost means that in our deck can be casted at very high loyalty, it also fix draws and should never die in hand.

I like it a lot.

[maCHOOga]

I just saw this and was like crap...maybe I need to move back to UG post!

- Pitches to FoW. check
- The only potential challenge is generating UG early.
- Moves cards to the bottom when what is topped sucks.
- With top, lets you play it as explore every turn.
- Ultimate can act as a candelabra affect, until your lands get swords.
- Gets hosed by Gaddock Teeg.

[Skriger]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_w08Rh46uHS.png

I feel this definitely merits some testing! I really like the idea of the scry mixed with SDT feels like great card selection.

[maCHOOga]

Also, if nissa gets to 6 loyalty; you can 0 her to put a primeval titan directly into play. Since its not a cast; meaning it can't be Forced.

[Rock Lee]

I tested Tony Murata's top8 list card for card yesterday at weekly magic and found it pretty underwhelming. weaknesses to non-repeal non-show draws against midrange and less interactiveness against combo (including burn) being the biggest weaknesses. I went 1-2 (one of my weeklies forces 3 rounds) against Infect (win), Food chain (close loss), Burn (loss). Infect and Burn pilots were definitely able to play better with more experience, and the matchups felt extremely shaky.

Made a list I've been testing using the Murata list as a shell and have found it much more appealing:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [ALA] Island (2)
1 [TSP] Forest (4)

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

// Spells
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [10E] Pithing Needle
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [UGF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 [MM2] Repeal
2 [EMN] Unsubstantiate

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [EMA] Force of Will
SB: 2 [C13] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [JGC] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [THS] Swan Song

Flex slot is 4th surgical and 2 swan songs, which could be non-blue answers, but I feel weird going so low on blue especially if I'm siding out shows.

[MechTactical]

Well, s*** I pre-ordered Nissa. Also got an Oath of Nissa playset if the deck starts to go that way. :rolleyes:
Any deck ideas with Nissa?
Unsubstantiate - hm interesting, nice inclusion. Too bad it doesn't bounce chalice or moon like cyclonic which comes in handy very often in my limited testing.

[Skriger]

List I am working with so far that feels strong trying to exploit the new Nissa. So far goldfishing on tappedout and it feels pretty good! 18 blue sources helps pay for FoW if needed. Good interaction when Nissa is on the battlefield. When you have a top up and running, it's very powerful. Felt like the typical clunkiness is gone. Being able to Spin Top then Scry away feels wonderful. In a FoW build, 3 seems to work well as potential fodder for FoW.

http://i.imgur.com/PFAGv0D.png

[MrFrowny_]

So I've seen lists of UG 12post that run Trinket Mage to get your 1-mana artifacts: top, relic, candel, etc. but I'm just curious of what you all think of Trinket Mage in the UG versions of the deck. Pros-Cons etc. I'm currently building the deck so I want some professional input.

[maCHOOga]

So I've seen lists of UG 12post that run Trinket Mage to get your 1-mana artifacts: top, relic, candel, etc. but I'm just curious of what you all think of Trinket Mage in the UG versions of the deck. Pros-Cons etc. I'm currently building the deck so I want some professional input.

I definitely thing it is viable, especially if you only own 1 candelabra of tawnos. I recall squeezing one in my UG lists a while back. I like it because it can tutor for the "4th" eldrazi titan, walking ballista. That card has impressed me helping with both the Elves and Infect matchups.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~
In other news, I had a game against the 4-color Control get where Dragonlord Dromoka shined out of the Sideboard in GW post. Unfortunately, I couldn't attack with in because of a baleful strix, but it effectively bought me multiple turns.

[into_play]

Thank you all for your kind words and support! My last match against Mono Red Sneak Attack that you all saw put a damper on an otherwise incredible tournament. My day one was a roller coaster of success and failure. I got off to a great start, winning my first three rounds, then dropped the next two and looked like I would miss day two. Then I was able to string together the four straight wins to go 7-2 and play the second day. Day two I went undefeated in the Swiss rounds to 12-2, then I.D.'ed with Andrew Jessup in the last round to secure the top 8 spot. Over the course of the event, I only played two combo matchups - BR Reanimator that I managed to beat in the very first round, and then the Mono Red Sneak that I lost to in top 8. Played against several BUG and 4 Color Delver over the 14 rounds. I don't think I've ever been Hymn'ed more in a single tournament.

As for my list, I have never strayed too far from the basic build that I have always felt comfortable with. I had been tuning the list for the last couple of months and I felt extremely confident going into the tournament with the final 75. Nothing really spicy, but everything you need to win is there. The only kind of bad card were the two sideboard Trickbinds. As a Wasteland answer, they didn't seem to be great against the BUG/4 Color Delvers that would see them in my hand. However, they were intended to be a strong answer to several combo decks that I did not end up seeing, as well as a good counter to Thought-Knot Seer triggers in Eldrazi Stompy. Not sure if I would swap them for more blue cards, or something else entirely.

Congrats Tony. I watch you playing and your deck is sweet. I played mono green post to 36th and lost horrendously to re animator on stream when I was 5-0. LOL. It was my first tourney and i was super happy with my decklist, but right now i am trying to find space for plat emperion. Price of Progress is super good right now. U/R delver and burn are going to be very popular soon since 4 color control and 3/4 color delvers are doing so well. I was super satisfied with Conduit of Ruin but my maindeck warping wails kinda felt sucky. I am gonna replace them with 1 emperion and 1 walking ballista and give that a shot.
Thank you and congrats on your finish as well! I heard that there was another 12Post around the top tables but I never got a chance to watch you play or speak to you. Be wary of Platinum Emperion, as he is pretty fragile. The Burn decks might bring in Smash to Smithereens, and many of the Delver builds with red have a couple of Ancient Grudge, preventing him from being the end-all shield that you want him to be. I think Crop into Chasm is the best thing mono-green has for Price. But I'm glad that you're enjoying the power of post; that is an incredible finish for your first go with the deck!

Great showing Tony Murata. Watched your matches through the day while I was there. Solid play. Met quite a few of your opponents throughout the day who wanted to vent to me after losing to you. :D
Thank you! I saw a couple of your games early in the day and wanted to speak to you, but there were usually some fairly large crowds around and time was short before the next round. Saw you win the atrocious MUD matchup in your first round! Your opponent held off on using his Wasteland for way too long.

I give you all the credit for first constructing the battle-tested "stock" list. My versions have always been based on the list I first saw you play at Worcester of all places years ago. I loved it and never looked back!



@ Into_Play. Any reason why you opted for two tabernacles over a different 15th card?
When piecing together my sideboard, I wanted broad, versatile cards that could be generally impactful for typical situation. One such card that has always given me a ton of mileage has been Tabernacle, against basically any deck that plays multiple creatures. I've always had one in the sideboard and always brought it in against all Delver builds, Death and Taxes, and so many more opponents. The only problem is, I would usually not want to spend a Crop or Map to go get one. With two, I wanted to increase the chances that I would simply draw into one naturally, and the presence of two clearly made this happen. I was able to play one much more frequently than before, and at the cost of just my land drop for the turn. Taking your land drop is really the only weakness of the card for our deck IMO. Being a land, we can protect it with Needle and Crop it away when we don't need it. Without a Needle, it becomes a Wasteland magnet and prevents a more important Cloudpost from being destroyed. And tying up their mana and slowing them down is a huge boon from a card that is only a land. It did a lot more work than another card such as Moment's Peace, and I think I made the right call by including them in duplicate.

I'll provide more details in a tournament report a little later. 12Post still feels as good as any deck in the current metagame, and as long as Miracles is prevalent, we have a good incentive to keep playing the deck. I won't stop!

[MechTactical]

@into_play
Congrats once more on your incredible finish. I like your optimism regarding our deck and its future; I find it very encouraging.
About the monoR match-up, all I can say is that I thought it was unwinnable until my last tournament when it was the first match I faced. I know the guy across the table is playing monoR and we both expected the same outcome as before, but then I 2-0 him after several fortunate plays (repealing his Titan, swaned his sneak attack, and so forth). After that match, I felt like I won the tournament. Absolutely no shame in dropping this match-up. It's probably the worst match-up possible, and in my modest opinion, I think one needs to get lucky to win.

[MechTactical]

Do you guys think that this has any potential?

Grasping Dunes
Land - Desert
T: Add ◊ to your mana pool.

1, T, Sacrifice Grasping Dunes: Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery.

Grasping Dunes seems decent against Pyromancer, revoker, etc. even DRS, magus, etc. could be dealt with in builds with land recursion? :eyebrow:

[Skriger]

Do you guys think that this has any potential?

Grasping Dunes
Land - Desert
T: Add ◊ to your mana pool.

1, T, Sacrifice Grasping Dunes: Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery.

Grasping Dunes seems decent against Pyromancer, revoker, etc. even DRS, magus, etc. could be dealt with in builds with land recursion? :eyebrow:

Feels like I would use it in a Loam deck before a cloudpost deck. Losing a land in these builds hurts your endgame, Crop Rotation into say a Glacial Chasm always feels dirty. Maybe if you had a Crucible of Worlds up. Even then, Grove + Punishing Fire does a much better job. Only thing I can see this useful against is Mother of Runes but that isn't a threat for this type of deck. I would want more of an answer for True Name Nemesis, Monastery Mentor, or something in that range. Also it only goes off at sorcery speed. No way to react to a pyromancer until they already have a bunch of tokens running.

[Razorking]

Congrats to Razorking for a day 2 & into_play for the top8. Unfortunately, both camera matches from this weekend looked abysmal for 12post. :-(

@ Razorking, they flashed your sideboard on coverage, but I was intrigued what was contained in your maindeck. I saw the Conduit, but wondered what other spice was inside. Can you share your list?

@ Into_Play. Any reason why you opted for two tabernacles over a different 15th card?


Hey, so I am currently on my phone so I will upload my list after dinner. It was an amazing tourney and I was so impressed with conduit. I have one conduit in Japanese and 2 in English so when I went to play the Japanese one, my opponent shot his hand up and yelled "Kudge can I get oracle for whatever the FCK this is?!" Lol.

So, the point of conduit is to connect the dots between little mana and huge mana. He is also a great threat and has inspired me to add a platnium emperion into my side for burn. To beat burn my game plan is to get behind a chasm and conduit into an emperion. No extra mana needed once he tutors for the emperion. Emperion can crash right on down. CONDUIT also I AMAZING for the times I have 11 mana and an eye of ugin. It is nice to have a target for my tutor I can play immediately and slide the perfect win con to the top of my deck. Old Emmy, emperion, new Emmy, newlomog, KtGD. Ext.

So, before yo see my list and lose your crap then, prime time has been cut. And I play mono green. Spending 4 turns at the minimum to hard cast a Titan was too hard. Titan's two green is clunky and I lack show and tell to get him in and working. Instead of that my beautiful conduit is colorless and still is a fine size threat. I really like conduit's ability to cut right to the wincon so you don'5 have to eye of ugin for it.

Just some neat stuff:
A top allows you to play whatever you tutor up that turn!

Since the tourney have have cut all fetches in favor of all basics so I can survive Ghost quarter from lands well. I also cut a mainfexk wail for my emperion.

Conduit can be played of an eye and two posts

CONDUIT allows for two clouposts and a candle to get you to an emperion with no additional lands

He is so much easier to cast when your opponent is wastelanding you

Multiples is amazing and he is able to be snuck out before a blood moon lands

THE TUTOR IS A CAST TRIGGER NOT ETB

MONO green is great against show and tell decks. (In general)

Thanks and good luck. I think even the U/G version should run at least 1 conduit .

[Razorking]

Had an amazing dinner of caviar and oysters and then black sea bass.

Ok, deck list

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Pithing Needle
4 Vesuva
2 Wooded Foothills
5 Forest
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
3 Sensei's Diving Top
1 Warping Wail
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Conduit of Ruin
1 Platinum Emperion

2 Moment's Peace
1 Song of the Dryads
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
3 Warping Wail

My current thoughts revolve around walking ballista and warping wail. I wanna fit both of them into the main deck in a above 1 number but i lack space. Maybe Koz hits the bench for now? maybe i cut a forest? hmm idk. i would like advice from any of you guys available

thank you very much and btw i came in 36th at Worcester.

[MechTactical]

Dude, I think you may be right about the conduit. I've been testing with it in an UG build since your post, and it's very handy, even as a 1 of since you can tutor for it. I remember thinking about conduit but quickly dismissing the card, I guess too fast.

[Roweboater]

I was playing with Conduit of Ruin as a budget option when I first began 12-Post. I felt it a little underwhelming for 6 mana compared to Titan. I've found that once Titan hits you usually win within the next two turns. Whereas Conduit doesn't get you to where you need to be. Sure, it'll lower the cost of your big dudes and Tutor one up for you, but what good is that if you don't have the mana to cast it? That being said, I feel that it may shine as a 1-of in some builds. Sometimes you just can't seem to find that Titan. In those cases you can use one of our mana ways to grab Eye and tutor for Conduit and cast it. It might not get you where you need to go but it's a body that can give you that extra turn or two you need to find the mana to finish out the game.

[MasterHerC]

@into_play
@Razorking

first of all congratulations for your placings, i always appreciate seeing 12post in the top rankings.

@Razorking:
i already tried out walking ballista for about ~3 months, using it in u/g, w/g and mono-green post, and i find it a bit underwhelming as most of the time it nails away some delvers, mothers and more but if you already are in a bad spot you just don't have the time to pump out some additional +1/+1 counters.
i ended up dropping ballista and didn't regret it by now.
it's not as game-ending as it seems in theory (still i will keep my foil copy).

but i guess i will try out a single conduit, just for testing reasons, still have to check it out (currently running u/g as i feel most confident with it).

just curious, why do you prefer new kozilek over butcher?
and how is new emrakul working for you?
--

@into_play:
i am following your tournament results for years now and it's kinda heartwarming to see that your u/g list only had some few, minimal changes during that time with still being successful.
may i ask you to put up a small sideboard-guide for that FoW-packed sideboard? i really like having forces in the sb as you can bring them in against so many decks and they rarely are bad.

[Razorking]

Mox is my go to in Dand T and he is also great for all the grungy games. In my build, koz will grab me 5 or 6 cards consistently whilst being unable to be swords to plowshared due to my density of 1 drops. CONDUIT is amazing and should be in ever list as a 1 of. In mono green, ancient stirrings can grab it which is super sweet.

I love new Emmy, he is my go to finisher for combo but I now see that against storm and tinfins I will grab emperion. Emmys mindslaver trigger is amazing against miracles and DnT too. I love the ability to board wipe my opponent with a tabernacle and choose to not pay for any triggers on their upkeep.

[TheBoozeCube]

Hey y'all, been a while since I posted. Cascading Cataracts + EE has gotten me thinking about an Intuition/Trinket Mage build, so I'm thinking about dipping my toes into UG for the first time. I don't really have a prototype list hammered out yet, but I do have a couple of thoughts I was hoping to bounce around.

1) I've never noticed Academy Ruins in any lists, but being able to recur EE seems really strong. Especially now, with the ability to set it to 5 pretty easily. And even just being able to recur a Map seems great. Has anyone used Ruins in Post? If so, what were your impressions?

2) With Cataracts, an Urborg, and maybe a B/x dual or two, how viable is a slight Black splash? Aside from access to Abrupt Decay, it gives us Volrath's Stronghold as an option to recur PrimeTime, Trinket Mage, and new-generation Eldrazi. Coming from C/g, I've never really built a heavily colored manabase for Post. How greedy can you reasonably get, given that we have an indestructible super-filter?

Thoughts?


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[TheBoozeCube]

I've also been looking at Halls of Mist as a sideboard option in Cg Post. My thought is that it's a tutorable tempo-based answer in between Maze and Tablernacle. It seems like it might be decent against decks that usually kill in medium swings over multiple turns (Delver, Eldrazi, D&T) by cutting their clock in half while you stabilize. I also like that it doesn't target like Maze (Leovold) and can't be hit with a topdecked Port or Wasteland before combat. Unfortunately, this is one of those random Ice Age rares that just has never been released on MTGO, which makes testing it considerably more difficult. Has anyone tried using this in paper? What are y'all's thoughts on this, either generally or in the current metagame?


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[mykatdied]

I've also been looking at Halls of Mist as a sideboard option in Cg Post. My thought is that it's a tutorable tempo-based answer in between Maze and Tablernacle. It seems like it might be decent against decks that usually kill in medium swings over multiple turns (Delver, Eldrazi, D&T) by cutting their clock in half while you stabilize. I also like that it doesn't target like Maze (Leovold) and can't be hit with a topdecked Port or Wasteland before combat. Unfortunately, this is one of those random Ice Age rares that just has never been released on MTGO, which makes testing it considerably more difficult. Has anyone tried using this in paper? What are y'all's thoughts on this, either generally or in the current metagame?


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With heavy colored builds you are naturally much more susceptible to Wasteland and Ghost Quarter, but you do get more tools for the aggressive delver match ups that can give us problems.

I went ahead and picked up a copy in paper after we interacted on twitter about it. I am going to try Halls of Mist and I will hit you up to discuss. Not being available on mtgo is unfortunate.

[TheBoozeCube]

With heavy colored builds you are naturally much more susceptible to Wasteland and Ghost Quarter, but you do get more tools for the aggressive delver match ups that can give us problems.

I went ahead and picked up a copy in paper after we interacted on twitter about it. I am going to try Halls of Mist and I will hit you up to discuss. Not being available on mtgo is unfortunate.

Awesome. Looking forward to your results. I don't get to play much paper Legacy (or Magic) nowadays, so my data points are very limited.


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[hymnyou]

Back on post train. Picked CG post back up for EW trial and got 3rd, deck felt really good overall. Ran with 3 conduits, They were sweet, two seems like a good number so far. Had two wurmcoils in board and they put in work when they came in, gonna look closer at this card for this build. Lost to Aggro Loam, should not have kept my hand in last game. Candel seems like such a target I question the dream of candel and maze- maze seems slightly underwhelming. Moments Peace generally takes out the same threats, cr or stirrings offer quick finds for maze but a moments peace in main will prob replace.

Looks like top is getting more controversy than I've seen in a long time...I am going to start looking at how the variations of this deck would look without top just in case.

From Helene Bergeot's twitter:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9esa-uVwAE3-Dd.jpg

[MechTactical]

Hey y'all, been a while since I posted. Cascading Cataracts + EE has gotten me thinking about an Intuition/Trinket Mage build, so I'm thinking about dipping my toes into UG for the first time. I don't really have a prototype list hammered out yet, but I do have a couple of thoughts I was hoping to bounce around.

1) I've never noticed Academy Ruins in any lists, but being able to recur EE seems really strong. Especially now, with the ability to set it to 5 pretty easily. And even just being able to recur a Map seems great. Has anyone used Ruins in Post? If so, what were your impressions?

2) With Cataracts, an Urborg, and maybe a B/x dual or two, how viable is a slight Black splash? Aside from access to Abrupt Decay, it gives us Volrath's Stronghold as an option to recur PrimeTime, Trinket Mage, and new-generation Eldrazi. Coming from C/g, I've never really built a heavily colored manabase for Post. How greedy can you reasonably get, given that we have an indestructible super-filter?

Thoughts?


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We had a similar effect to Cascading Cataracts b4. Though, it wasn't indestructible + any mana combination: Crystal Quarry.

1) I tried ruins but found it waay 2 slow for my taste.

2) Tried volrath in a B splash build and it was similarly slow and weak 2 GY hate as ruins. While the B splash mana base seems playable, i find it too risky/greedy 2 justify the B splash, because a well tweaked UG list can handle any situations that a BUG can.

I guess Nissa is available on xMage and i'll start testing. Do you plan on taking a creature heavy approach to her?

EDIT: I'm really liking Nissa. Testing in a standard UG / trinket build with Sylvan Caryatid and FoW in the board.

[TheBoozeCube]

We had a similar effect to Cascading Cataracts b4. Though, it wasn't indestructible + any mana combination: Crystal Quarry.

The any combination is what makes all the difference. It can make WUBRG for EE, but it also makes GG for PrimeTime and UUU for Omniscience. Hell, you could even make BBBB and cast Griselbrand if you wanted. The ability to bulk filter colorless into more intense 1-2 color requirements excites me just as much, if not more.

Being Wasteland-proof isn't bad either.


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[vanquish]

We had a similar effect to Cascading Cataracts b4. Though, it wasn't indestructible + any mana combination: Crystal Quarry.

1) I tried ruins but found it waay 2 slow for my taste.

2) Tried volrath in a B splash build and it was similarly slow and weak 2 GY hate as ruins. While the B splash mana base seems playable, i find it too risky/greedy 2 justify the B splash, because a well tweaked UG list can handle any situations that a BUG can.

I guess Nissa is available on xMage and i'll start testing. Do you plan on taking a creature heavy approach to her?

EDIT: I'm really liking Nissa. Testing in a standard UG / trinket build with Sylvan Caryatid and FoW in the board.

I tested Nissa on Xmage yesterday with a GU Eldrazi list (below) as I tried to splash Blue green in a colorless eldrazi build but fitting the mana base to accommodate Nissa in the colorless list is challenging. Thus I came with this list, (not 100% if this was the full list but here some idea of what it was)

Creatures (23)
4 Thought-knot-seer
3 World Breaker
4 Dimensional Infiltrator
4 Eldrazi Skyspawner
4 noble hierarch
4 reality smasher

Instant & Sorceries (8)
4 dismember
4 Life from the loam

Planeswalkers (4)
4 Nissa, Steward of Elements

Lands (25)
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Grove
2 yavimaya coast
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Caven of souls
1 island
1 forest
1 wastes

SB
4 Chalice of the void
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Engineered Explosives
2 All is Dust
4 Flex slots (not defined)


All I can say about Nissa, is the same feeling I have with wasteland, great when you have advantage, horrible when lagging behind. The problem I had with this build was that I was not able to get the most out of the XUG converted mana cost as well as abrupt decay normally took care of her. So In order for Nissa to survice 1 turn you need to make her X as large as possible and have the means to protect her.

The +2 Ability is very cool, I think Sensei Divining Top would be able to make Nissa very profitable.
The +0 ability works nice with Scry, although when top decking I always wished I had some Sensei Divining Top available.
-6 never tried it, not enough mana.

[MechTactical]

I think running some mana dorks may be the best way to go? I was pleasantly surprised by Sylvan Caryatid survivability/ramping/mana fixing/Nissa protecting. :laugh:

Unfortunately, Nissa is decayable, revoker, needle, and gaddock give you more headache. But the upside of having a midrange ramp/card filter + finisher in one card is hugely important and gives the deck more versatility, which in my opinion countermands her downsides.

Nissa paired with a top is amazing, and her +0 really shines once you get them online (unfortunately the +0 can't be used to good effect without top/brainstorm). +2 can be a bit slow, but you can get counters on her fast, and she filters out bad draws quite well while setting the clock. I was unable to use her +2 for setting up her +0 ability often. Her - 6 won me several games last night, and I'm excited to have another flexible win con at hand.
I liked how I could board out my SnT against Reanimator and monoR and still have plenty of blue cards for FoW post-board. Against burn, her +0 pushed the game in my favor, and I was able to ramp the guy out of the match faster than he could burn me. She was very helpful against loam and midrange as well. I think I like her "explore" ability most of all, though, I would like to run more creatures up to 3-4 CMC to make better use of her +0. Nevertheless, putting a land from the top of your library onto the battlefield is an excellent ability to have. Despite the fact that Nissa is weak against many things, I think she stalls the game well and gives the opponent something to tackle with, while you sit around dropping lands, which is supposedly Plan A for us. :laugh: Even if Nissa gets wasted/disabled early she takes some of the pressure off you, for example, a guy had to name Nissa with his needle to prevent a -6 in two turns, and my top remained intact, finding another answer soon afterward. Or the opponent has to attack her instead of you, while you still dropped that extra land or cleared the top of your library on your turn (which can translate to something like: "gain X life + explore or scry 2"). I agree with Mr. vanquish that Nissa isn't as game changing as a resolved SnT->primetime, or Ugin is, even if you can -6 her, but you can still play those cards in a Nissa build... Despite my optimism about Nissa; we still need to do more testing before we can make the final verdict about her.

@Booze
I'm not sure Cascading Cataracts is what one wants to run in UG post but will give it a try nevertheless.

[Razorking]

Tangle Wire. i am running 1 as a flex spot. The card is sick as you always take less damage from it and it slows opponets. Pithing needles can tap for it and so can tops and other artifacts. I wanna find spaace for a second. What are your guy's thoughts on the card? it sees great against true name decks and daze decks.

[hymnyou]

Tangle Wire. i am running 1 as a flex spot. The card is sick as you always take less damage from it and it slows opponets. Pithing needles can tap for it and so can tops and other artifacts. I wanna find spaace for a second. What are your guy's thoughts on the card? it sees great against true name decks and daze decks.

Good call. Tabernacle plays well with this too. This would be particularly good against most tempo and also aggro. Dnt, Elves, Eldrazi stompy, and infect come to mind. Anything that's playable that stalls or offers protection while we build is worth testing at least. I could see this working out really well in certain metas.

@theboozecube have you tested this in the past?

[TheBoozeCube]

Good call. Tabernacle plays well with this too. This would be particularly good against most tempo and also aggro. Dnt, Elves, Eldrazi stompy, and infect come to mind. Anything that's playable that stalls or offers protection while we build is worth testing at least. I could see this working out really well in certain metas.

@theboozecube have you tested this in the past?

I never thought of it, actually. It seems decent against decks that typically need a fast clock but low permanent count on the board (non-Pyromancer Delver springs to mind). The problem with this card, I think, is that it doesn't do much later once they make enough land drops; they can tap lands for TW and ride any on-board threats. But it's colorless and cheap, so its probably worth trying.

Where I think it might actually be best is against Combo. Stopping them from sculpting their hand effectively is good, although I'm skeptical that it's better than Sphere or 3Ball on this point. But if it's flexible enough to slow down both combo and aggressive decks with the same slot, that might make it worth it too.


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[TheBoozeCube]

Looks like top is getting more controversy than I've seen in a long time...I am going to start looking at how the variations of this deck would look without top just in case.

I cut Tops from my Cg build well over a year ago to make room for a full playset of Warping Wail. I haven't really missed it; Crop, Map, and Stirrings already provide us with incredible card selection.

One nice thing about cutting Top is that you can run more basic forests over fetchlands, which makes Krosan Grip much more reliable vs Blood Moon.


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[hymnyou]

I never thought of it, actually. It seems decent against decks that typically need a fast clock but low permanent count on the board (non-Pyromancer Delver springs to mind). The problem with this card, I think, is that it doesn't do much later once they make enough land drops; they can tap lands for TW and ride any on-board threats. But it's colorless and cheap, so its probably worth trying.

Where I think it might actually be best is against Combo. Stopping them from sculpting their hand effectively is good, although I'm skeptical that it's better than Sphere or 3Ball on this point. But if it's flexible enough to slow down both combo and aggressive decks with the same slot, that might make it worth it too
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.

Good points, on the play the card is much stronger against combo, I suppose 3ball suffers same fate. Will be interesting to weigh out the pros and cons.



I cut Tops from my Cg build well over a year ago to make room for a full playset of Warping Wail. I haven't really missed it; Crop, Map, and Stirrings already provide us with incredible card selection.

One nice thing about cutting Top is that you can run more basic forests over fetchlands, which makes Krosan Grip much more reliable vs Blood Moon.


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I tried this once but I don't think I had enough faith in the topdecks and chickened out. I'll give it another run, you make good points. Thanks for your input.

[Razorking]

Hey, I testing tangle wire a bit. In my matchup against aluren, it slowed him enough for me to ulamog his lands and get needles down on cavern harpy. It also helped me against fish. He had to tap his vials down to it due to low land count and few creatures. I assume it kicks DnT in the theeth early. I really want to play this against delver as it can get down for only two mana meaning you can turn 2 it. I really like the card as I can get it off ancient stirrings and with candelabras I can almost entirely ignore it. Lol. I want a second copy in the main and am thinking about trimming either a map/top/ or crop for it idk. Need HALP PLZ. Tangle can also shut down wasteland in the early turns if your opponet plays it waiting for a post. This card is sweet and I really like the From the Vaults art. Having a card that slows storm and reanimator is also really cool. The fact that it can slow Agro and combo (MY WORST MATCHUPS) makes me giddy with excitement. I need to find a place for a second.

Also, can someone explain how tabernacle and tangle wire will interact?? Will my opponent get to pay for tab then tap for tangle? Or do I get to choose what goes first? I think the tab triggers are technically theirs so they can do order???

Here is current list.

User Submitted Deck
Format: Legacy
Apr 19, 2017
Online
Paper
My Price
Creatures (8)
3 Conduit of Ruin 6 1.89
1 Platinum Emperion 8 19.99
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion 8cc 3.95
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger 10 15.93
1 Emrakul, the Promised End 13 8.76
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn 15 39.29
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon 8 69.98
Spells (8)
4 Ancient Stirrings g 23.08
4 Crop Rotation g 5.64
Artifacts (15)
4 Candelabra of Tawnos 1 1,799.96
4 Expedition Map 1 8.24
3 Pithing Needle 1 8.55
3 Sensei's Divining Top 1 53.01
1 Tangle Wire 3 4.98
Lands (27)
1 Bojuka Bog 1.24
4 Cloudpost 3.56
1 Dark Depths 24.00
1 Eye of Ugin 8.48
7 Forest 0.00
1 Glacial Chasm 0.75
4 Glimmerpost 0.68
1 Karakas 41.84
1 Maze of Ith 9.00
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale 1,296.00
1 Thespian's Stage 2.61
4 Vesuva

[hymnyou]

Also, can someone explain how tabernacle and tangle wire will interact?? Will my opponent get to pay for tab then tap for tangle? Or do I get to choose what goes first? I think the tab triggers are technically theirs so they can do order???



Regarding opponent's turn, Tabernacle gives the trigger to their creatures, so that goes on stack first, then your Wire triggers would go on top and resolve first. Obviously you stack triggers on your turn.

Looking at your list I'd cut down to 3 CR's personally. Thanks for sharing your results.

[prdgchild]

Hey, I testing tangle wire a bit. In my matchup against aluren, it slowed him enough for me to ulamog his lands and get needles down on cavern harpy. It also helped me against fish. He had to tap his vials down to it due to low land count and few creatures. I assume it kicks DnT in the theeth early. I really want to play this against delver as it can get down for only two mana meaning you can turn 2 it. I really like the card as I can get it off ancient stirrings and with candelabras I can almost entirely ignore it. Lol. I want a second copy in the main and am thinking about trimming either a map/top/ or crop for it idk. Need HALP PLZ. Tangle can also shut down wasteland in the early turns if your opponet plays it waiting for a post. This card is sweet and I really like the From the Vaults art. Having a card that slows storm and reanimator is also really cool. The fact that it can slow Agro and combo (MY WORST MATCHUPS) makes me giddy with excitement. I need to find a place for a second.

Also, can someone explain how tabernacle and tangle wire will interact?? Will my opponent get to pay for tab then tap for tangle? Or do I get to choose what goes first? I think the tab triggers are technically theirs so they can do order???

Here is current list.

User Submitted Deck
Format: Legacy
Apr 19, 2017
Online
Paper
My Price
Creatures (8)
3 Conduit of Ruin 6 1.89
1 Platinum Emperion 8 19.99
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion 8cc 3.95
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger 10 15.93
1 Emrakul, the Promised End 13 8.76
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn 15 39.29
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon 8 69.98
Spells (8)
4 Ancient Stirrings g 23.08
4 Crop Rotation g 5.64
Artifacts (15)
4 Candelabra of Tawnos 1 1,799.96
4 Expedition Map 1 8.24
3 Pithing Needle 1 8.55
3 Sensei's Divining Top 1 53.01
1 Tangle Wire 3 4.98
Lands (27)
1 Bojuka Bog 1.24
4 Cloudpost 3.56
1 Dark Depths 24.00
1 Eye of Ugin 8.48
7 Forest 0.00
1 Glacial Chasm 0.75
4 Glimmerpost 0.68
1 Karakas 41.84
1 Maze of Ith 9.00
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale 1,296.00
1 Thespian's Stage 2.61
4 Vesuva


,,how is this better than trinisphere? why play this over tsphere? not seeing it

[MechTactical]

I just pulled off a +0 into Titan, and it felt great (DnT guy was like :eek:) ! Still, I wonder if Nissa is competitive...

Regarding Tangle Wire I can't see any benefits playing it over trini+ensnaring bridge either, though I never went down that path myself...

[HomicidalRambo]

I just pulled off a +0 into Titan, and it felt great (DnT guy was like :eek:) ! Still, I wonder if Nissa is competitive...

Regarding Tangle Wire I can't see any benefits playing it over trini+ensnaring bridge either, though I never went down that path myself...

What deck list you running. A card that highly interested me and played post for years with good success. I'm building one with forces MB. More controlling post which is more my style. The dual mana my only concern. Considered nobles for ramp and colored mana.

[MechTactical]

What deck list you running. A card that highly interested me and played post for years with good success. I'm building one with forces MB. More controlling post which is more my style. The dual mana my only concern. Considered nobles for ramp and colored mana.

Nothing to post yet, I'm using a more or less stock UG list. I've added another blue fetch to try and hit UG more consistently.
Another angle is with FoW mainboard like you mentioned, but on this list, I want to have at least 17-18 blue cards MB, so mana dorks don't fit well in there. Fooled around with stuff like Krosan Wayfarer, Cloud of Faeries, glint-nest, venser, coiling oracle, etc. some creature that I could put into play via Nissa and get something out of it other than a mana dork. Though, I don't think it's worth warping the deck just because of the +0 creature ability.

I've started to work on a Nissa BUG list with Baleful Strix, but I don't know if that has any potential. I dropped all the utility lands and land tutors for FoW, ponder, Nissa, Baleful Strix, and toxic deluge + decay (currently in the board). I played a couple of games, and I can say I had no issues with finding my posts. The mana base seems very stable after dropping chasm, cavern and bojuka. Ponder, brainstorm, top and Nissa find everything you need.

[HomicidalRambo]

Nothing to post yet, I'm using a more or less stock UG list. I've added another blue fetch to try and hit UG more consistently.
Another angle is with FoW mainboard like you mentioned, but on this list, I want to have at least 17-18 blue cards MB, so mana dorks don't fit well in there. Fooled around with stuff like Krosan Wayfarer, Cloud of Faeries, glint-nest, venser, coiling oracle, etc. some creature that I could put into play via Nissa and get something out of it other than a mana dork. Though, I don't think it's worth warping the deck just because of the +0 creature ability.

I've started to work on a Nissa BUG list with Baleful Strix, but I don't know if that has any potential. I dropped all the utility lands and land tutors for FoW, ponder, Nissa, Baleful Strix, and toxic deluge + decay (currently in the board). I played a couple of games, and I can say I had no issues with finding my posts. The mana base seems very stable after dropping chasm, cavern and bojuka. Ponder, brainstorm, top and Nissa find everything you need.


Got ya. TKS have been decent with her. Maybe the only other creature I add in around 2 of. Helps against combo decks, which are our worst match ups. New version I'm building seems way better. One of posts main strengths is mana base so trying to build a control post deck with her. Your dead on tho I see BUG decks using her...time will tell. If I get anything working consistently I'll let everyone know, testing this weekend.

[TheBoozeCube]

This is where I'm at for my UG build. My main goal is to have it as an option when I expect a meta with high levels of combo (a few LGSs) where my usual Cg build would struggle. Having never played UG before, I'd appreciate some veteran criticism.

Creatures:7
4 Primeval Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells:29
4 Brainstorm
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pithing Needle
2 Repeal
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Swan Song
2 Show and Tell
1 All Is Dust
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Lands:24
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Forest
4 Glimmerpost
1 Island
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Tropical Island

Sideboard:15
1 Sundering Titan
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Flusterstorm
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Forcefield
3 Krosan Grip
3 Force of Will
1 Dark Depths
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Thespian's Stage



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[203995014]

How does UG 12-post win vs aggro loam? That's a matchup I always have trouble with. The angles of attack are too numerous, with chalice blanking wasteland protection, wasteland recursion out the wazoo, and liliana to top it off.

[TheBoozeCube]

How does UG 12-post win vs aggro loam? That's a matchup I always have trouble with. The angles of attack are too numerous, with chalice blanking wasteland protection, wasteland recursion out the wazoo, and liliana to top it off.

In Cg, I play a few Ratchet Bombs in the board. They're great at taking out Chalice. In UG, you also have EE on 0 at the same effective cost.


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[MechTactical]

@Booze
I'm not a veteran, but I have been playing UG post for the past two years now. I'll throw in my two cents, and you can decide if you want to spend them:

I never liked all is dust because you're just one mana short of Ugin and they are both equally hard to resolve. I would never move my glacial to the board, maybe if I ran a full FoW playset MB. 2 swan songs require at least three repeals, in my opinion, you don't want to get bird suckered (happened to me on several occasions). I feel that swan is more suitable as an SB card, but I may be wrong. I wouldn't add two 8+ CMC cards to the board, especially since you are low on SnT. I would prefer two EE over Ratchet. If you are in a combo heavy meta, I think you better run trickbind MB. It's such a great card against all sorts of combo decks. Nowadays I always run up to 3-4 8 + / threats in my lists, since they can often clog your hand. Most of the time you win through primetime -> ulamog -> emrakul, you don't need much more than Ulamog, especially if you're running 2x ugin. It seems you have a lot of one-drops and have little protection against chalice; I would consider adding something since you can get hosed by chalice very badly. Trickbind, for example, can get you around chalice (sometimes a single crop rotation is enough for you to win). I don't like to play without Vesuva, preferably I run 2, but neve 0. I guess you'd want to run two islands instead of 2 forests since your go to answer against Magus/moon is usually repeal/SnT or cyclonic if you run it. I'm treating the basic forest exclusively as insurance for being able to cast Kgrip post board. It's the only reason I was reluctant to cut it as Rock did in a couple of his lists. I ran into post board situations where Kgrip was usless. If you don't have a basic forest, you can't destroy blood moon. Furthermore, you have so many blue one-drops that I think you'd want to have blue available to you on T1 as much as possible. If you're in a combo infested meta, I don't think tabernacle should be MB?

@203995014
Aggro Loam is a nasty matchup. Depends on the build, but I guess you want to resolve a SnT as fast as possible. EE is also very useful, yes. Basic lands are great to have in multiples; I never regretted running 2x islands + 1x forest in these matchups. Again, trickbind is a decent MB card to have against loam. I also like crop-bog here. Try to keep fast hands with lots of colored sources. Fetch lands are neat against loam, I often crop rotated for a fetch land against a live knight, so I could resolve a SnT without getting mana screwed.

[TheBoozeCube]

@MechTactical

Thanks, all great points. I didn't even notice that I forgot Vesuvas.

1) How many S&T are optimal in UG?

2) Is Repeal UG's primary defense vs creatures? The combo-heavy LGSs where I'd play this over Cg still have some creature decks.

3) I like having a split of All Is Dust and Ugin to get around cards like Meddling Mage, Surgical, Needle, Sanctum Prelate, etc.. Plus, Dust answers a handful of key cards that Ugin doesn't (Griselbrand, Progenitus, Omniscience (if they can't kill immediately)).

4) I definitely want hard countermagic main. I don't think I have enough blue to run Forces main. If not Swan Song, what would you recommend?

5) Is Trickbind a maindeck card? If so, how many?


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[hymnyou]

1) How many S&T are optimal in UG?

3 to 4 but depends on meta mostly, depends on how fast the format is moving typically. S&T's main power is ramping primetime out or as a great bait spell for countermagic, counter my s&t then hardcast primetime does happen. Helps speed you up in faster paced matches, like getting primetime down fast against DNT or Emporium against Burn for example. Pitches to force late game when you can already hardcast everything. It's a necessary evil

2) Is Repeal UG's primary defense vs creatures? The combo-heavy LGSs where I'd play this over Cg still have some creature decks.

I like 1-2 Cyclonic Rift a lot in UG. Great for emergency situations (you mentioned griselbrand) or stalling opponent, deals with moons/chalice/etc nicely, but more importantly if overloaded just blows opponent to the bermuda triangle. It's also one of the most insane feelings ever to sit there and watch your elves opponent go completely nuts and swing and you just mop their entire board on overload. Noticed you had one candel- trinket mage(2nd Candel) is amazing toolbox kit in one, and puts up a great chump block. Even one good block can save you considering the deck runs you so low till the engine is built. EE is good. I have been liking Moments Peace as a defensive card, safe to targeted discard, recurs, sometimes double value. I love forcefield, I own many and would live inside a actual forcefield if I could- but in general but the card is too easily dealt with due to needle/revoker and decay. Tabernacle is sweet.

3) I like having a split of All Is Dust and Ugin to get around cards like Meddling Mage, Surgical, Needle, Sanctum Prelate, etc.. Plus, Dust answers a handful of key cards that Ugin doesn't (Griselbrand, Progenitus, Omniscience (if they can't kill immediately)).

I've mainly felt All is Dust is a turn too late the times I have played it, just feels really slow in UG. Repeal takes care of a lot of these hate cards, surgical usually handled with countermagic. Kgrip handles Needle also.

4) I definitely want hard countermagic main. I don't think I have enough blue to run Forces main. If not Swan Song, what would you recommend?

I have really liked Negate, you may want to try it out. Swan Song is good, but in the main it can provide added pressure on your clock w/non-combo decks, especially those packing wasteland.

5) Is Trickbind a maindeck card? If so, how many?

This one I think is up to the pilot, I think its more meta dependent. 2-3 seems like a good place to be. Last time I was in Minneapolis playing Legacy (Xmas) there was a lot of Storm/TES, so you may want to run main, but typically I think it's a SB card.

[sunlith42]

I am fairly new to playing 12 post. I am struggling to understand the usefulness of repeal. It feels like an unsummon that cantrips, which I have found is often not enough. It only buys me 3-4 damage.

[Neko448]

Ugh, they banned Top.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/april-24-2017-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2017-04-24


So dumb. The ban was clearly Terminus. The end of an era, I suppose.

[Postman]

Ugh, they banned Top.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/april-24-2017-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2017-04-24


So dumb. The ban was clearly Terminus. The end of an era, I suppose.

Yeah, it's a nightmare. Terminus would have been the right call to weaken Miracles, but taking SDT away weakens many non-blue decks...

Anyways, let's got! Nissa and Scroll Rack, here we go again!

[Loxmatii]

the end of era... yeah

totally new ways to build 12 post, in my point of view

eh =(

[maCHOOga]

4/24/2017. The day miracles died...and 12post too.

[Cyborg]

Sylvan Library, Mirri's Guile moving on nothing changed.

[TheBoozeCube]

Losing Top isn't the end of the world. I cut Top from my Cg list over a year ago. We still have plenty of excellent card-selection options.

The biggest blow is just losing a Miracles-heavy metagame. And I'm concerned about a rise in combo as a result.


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[hymnyou]

Losing Top isn't the end of the world. I cut Top from my Cg list over a year ago. We still have plenty of excellent card-selection options.

The biggest blow is just losing a Miracles-heavy metagame. And I'm concerned about a rise in combo as a result.


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Agreed. I'm also concerned about blood moon decks though. CG should be ok depending on meta change, but UG took a heavy hit either way.

[treesgobark]

So anyway, let's get down to business. Where do we go from here? Is Mono-Green the path we'll take? Maybe implement Dark Depths, maybe try to be a faster deck like modern tron? Or maybe go in a more MUD kind of direction. I'm not a veteran of this deck so I'd just like to hear people's thoughts on what direction we go. Or if someone has something they'd like others to test, throw it out there.

[Cyborg]

This is my mono green list adjusted for top ban. Thinking a combo/aggro heavy meta game with an increase in wasteland nonsense.

Main
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Cloudpost
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Eye of Ugin
6x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Karakas
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Vesuva
3x Misty Rainforest

2x Candelabra of Tawnos
3x Expedition Map
3x Pithing Needle

4x Crop Rotation
4x Green Sun's Zenith

1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
4x Primeval Titan
3x Sakura-Tribe Elder
3x Walking Ballista

1x Sylvan Library
1x Mirri's Guile

1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

side
1x All Is Dust
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Krosan Grip
3x Mindbreak Trap
3x Moment's Peace
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Walking Ballista

[TheBoozeCube]

So anyway, let's get down to business. Where do we go from here? Is Mono-Green the path we'll take? Maybe implement Dark Depths, maybe try to be a faster deck like modern tron? Or maybe go in a more MUD kind of direction. I'm not a veteran of this deck so I'd just like to hear people's thoughts on what direction we go. Or if someone has something they'd like others to test, throw it out there.

I recommended Colorless Green. The only thing it really loses is Miracles for free wins. I cut my Tops a long time ago and haven't missed them. Here's my current list:

Creatures:4
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells:28
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
1 Spatial Contortion
4 Warping Wail
2 All Is Dust
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Lands:28
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
7 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
2 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Vesuva
1 Wastes

Sideboard:15
1 Silent Arbiter
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spatial Contortion
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Krosan Grip
1 Trinisphere
1 Dark Depths



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[HomicidalRambo]

Whelp had great success with nissa this weekend was going to shed some light. That took a huge hit. I can try to make it work without top but most likely a waste of time. It was the key card to u/g. Also, our best match up Will be way down. It was a fun run, but I just don't see it working anymore. Gc is ok but for u/g for repeal tricks to draw 2 and then look at 3 etc deck is done. Discard can wreck u now and no more hiding counter magic. Sad day...the colorless eldrazi with anti combo most likely the way to go now. If someone finds a way to make u/g purr without it lemme know. Otherwise, best of luck guys.

[hymnyou]

What are peoples thoughts on Soothsaying for UG? Personally I think UG may want to go stirrings route going more colorless to replace top.
CG seems like it will be fine, theboozecube was running lists without. I was running 3 tops, may replace with Guile but still working it out. Library is sketchy with the amount of incoming leovolds.

[Razorking]

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Pithing Needle
4 Vesuva
7 Forest
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
2 Trinisphere
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Conduit of Ruin
2 tangle wire

4 Leyline of the void
2 Moment’s peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Warping Wail



Here is my current list post top ban. I am running tangle and 3 ball for combo deckhand h8. I think i will be fine cuz i can coast against the 3/4 color control and tangle wire is great against delver decks. I refuse to drop green for more lock pieces and MUD esque things. Crop rotation is great and ancient stirrings allows for the perfect response to any situation. Multiple tangles is also fantastic.

I want to change a Krosaan grip to a more efficient piece of chalice on 1/ blood moon removal. I am scared of non blue prison decks and would like suggestions for non one drop artifact/enchantment removal. HALP PLZ

I also probably want some amount of cursed totem for elves h8. HALP

[Rock Lee]

I want to change a Krosaan grip to a more efficient piece of chalice on 1/ blood moon removal. I am scared of non blue prison decks and would like suggestions for non one drop artifact/enchantment removal. HALP PLZ

I also probably want some amount of cursed totem for elves h8. HALP

Nature's claim is your 1 drop artifact/enchantment removal. EE if need be. seal of primordium also works here sometimes.

elves hate in Cg is best in cursed totem + ugin's, but really warping wail is your best bet to buy time.

[TheBoozeCube]

Nature's claim is your 1 drop artifact/enchantment removal. EE if need be. seal of primordium also works here sometimes.

elves hate in Cg is best in cursed totem + ugin's, but really warping wail is your best bet to buy time.

Agree 100% on Warping Wail. In fact, I had cut my Tops to make room for the full playset. It's consistently overperformed for me.

It does pretty much everything you could want: spot removal for 75% of the most commonly played creatures in the format, countering key spells vs combo (like Natural Order, for example), countering discard, surprise chump blocker, answer to Lili -2, quasi-Surgical for Bridge from Below. It's a veritable Swiss Army Knife.


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[Leshrac82]

My first thoughts on the new situation: Obviously the ban hits us hard, not because we lose Top (Boozecube is not the only one who cut it, in my last versions i replaced it with Sylvan Library in my Midrange version too, because that worked better in that specific build), but because we lose Miracles. And it's very possible the new meta will be more hostile to us than just the old meta without Miracles would have been, most decks winning from this ban are probably not very great matchups.

So, there is a real chance this deck is dead. But that's not sure, depending on how the meta eventually turns out we might be able to adjust - but probably things will need to change, just replacing Top and moving on won't cut it, and what exactly needs to change we will see.

(I played a few games on xmage today after i didn't do that for a long time, just to get a better feeling for the metagame again, my usual testing doesn't work without any information about the metagame.)

One question everybody should ask: What cards that might see play in 12post are better now?
I think Dark Depths should probably be included in every list now. I played that already, but overall Miracles was one of the few matchups where i really didn't want it at all, now it's much better.
The same goes for Knight of the Reliquary - i don't think anybody else tried it, but it got better now, because Miracles is probably its worst matchup. In general, a creature heavy strategy could work much better.

I think my midrange build got better compared to some other more extreme ramp builds (but it still got worse overall, Miracles was still a 70%+ matchup for me). I don't have a list ready, i'm trying something with Chalice maindeck now, because that's possible with my build and i expect more fast combo and Delver decks, with Chalice maindeck i'm pretty sure this beats most of these. It's worse against Stompy decks however, but i don't thik Eldrazi will be a big part of the new meta (and Blood Moon isn't the biggest problem with 4 Mox Diamond). Anyway, i think that general idea (Mox Diamonds for early acceleration and some cheaper creatures like Knight of the Reliquary and Tireless Tracker) is something to explore if other builds don't work any more.

[Rock Lee]

My first real list since the Top news is something my teammate Jeff Carpenter has been tinkering with for days as a means of destroying me at local events. The deck is completely untouched by the top changes and fights the decks being held back by top's miracle dominance magnificently. Here's his, and now my, list that I did great with locally:

// Lands
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [JGC] Karakas
1 [KLD] Inventors' Fair
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
1 [V12] Maze of Ith
2 [MR] Blinkmoth Well
4 [EXP] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 [AER] Walking Ballista
1 [EMN] Emrakul, the Promised End
4 [UD] Metalworker
3 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
1 [KLD] Metalwork Colossus
1 [OGW] Endbringer

// Spells
4 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
4 [U] Winter Orb
3 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
SB: 1 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 [OGW] Warping Wail
SB: 4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 [NPH] Dismember
SB: 3 [MMA] Faerie Macabre

[TheBoozeCube]

My first real list since the Top news is something my teammate Jeff Carpenter has been tinkering with for days as a means of destroying me at local events. The deck is completely untouched by the top changes and fights the decks being held back by top's miracle dominance magnificently. Here's his, and now my, list that I did great with locally:

// Lands
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [JGC] Karakas
1 [KLD] Inventors' Fair
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
1 [V12] Maze of Ith
2 [MR] Blinkmoth Well
4 [EXP] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 [AER] Walking Ballista
1 [EMN] Emrakul, the Promised End
4 [UD] Metalworker
3 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
1 [KLD] Metalwork Colossus
1 [OGW] Endbringer

// Spells
4 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
4 [U] Winter Orb
3 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
SB: 1 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 [OGW] Warping Wail
SB: 4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 [NPH] Dismember
SB: 3 [MMA] Faerie Macabre

Intriguing list. What is the Blinkmoth Well for? Just Winter Orb or is it offensive too?


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[TheBoozeCube]

One question everybody should ask: What cards that might see play in 12post are better now?


1) Ratchet Bomb. There's a decent chance RUG Delver comes back, so a cheap way to take out 1-2 drops gets better. It also excels at killing Chalices and isn't terrible at Blood Moon, both of which I expect to see more of.

2) Spatial Contortion. It kills Magus of the Moon, which may see a resurgence. I run a 1-of Wastes for exactly this purpose. And it kills most Elves, even with a lord in play.

3) Warping Wail. If you're not playing UG, this gives you countermagic against most of the combo decks that will take advantage of Miracles's absence.

4) Dark Depths. I agree that this got much better without Miracles. I'll have to see what the meta becomes before moving mine main, but the option for the super-fast clock is definitely relevant if we have to fight more combo.


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[MechTactical]

Sad day indeed. I guess I'm too late to bitch about the ban? Nah: those pigs just wrecked the most interesting deck in the format - UG post! god damn assholes. Top was one of the most intriguing and iconic cards in the format. It represented the power level that should exist in Legacy. Miracles & slow play cannot be an excuse for this travesty.

...moving on...

Do we have to play "prison MUD post" now? Is there no hope for UG?

[Rock Lee]

Sad day indeed. I guess I'm too late to bitch about the ban? Nah: those pigs just wrecked the most interesting deck in the format - UG post! god damn assholes. Top was one of the most intriguing and iconic cards in the format. It represented the power level that should exist in Legacy. Miracles & slow play cannot be an excuse for this travesty.

...moving on...

Do we have to play "prison MUD post" now? Is there no hope for UG?

I'm experimenting with some really interesting variants of RuG post and GR post and UG post. fear not, once the post-miracles meta appears, a build will appear. But since this deck has ALWAYS been a counter-meta deck (zoo then stoneblade then miracles), we need for a meta to actually appear before cementing "the build" for 12post. The deck is certainly not gone though, I simply had that prison build pre-made and it took zero hits from the top banning.

[Zotmaster]

I'm experimenting with some really interesting variants of RuG post and GR post and UG post. fear not, once the post-miracles meta appears, a build will appear. But since this deck has ALWAYS been a counter-meta deck (zoo then stoneblade then miracles), we need for a meta to actually appear before cementing "the build" for 12post. The deck is certainly not gone though, I simply had that prison build pre-made and it took zero hits from the top banning.

Your list definitely gave me some new ideas. I'm also considering jumping into white, as I think the combination of removal and prison effects might go a long way.

[Ceralyst]

Hey all, I just built UG cloudpost about 2 weeks ago, and really enjoyed playing it. So, I'm not quite giving up on it yet following the banning of top. I am currently expecting up ticks in combo, particularly storm, elves, and belcher, plus various delver variants due to the top ban. So, I came up with a list that may be able to Combat these types of decks, and to Possibly keep the UG deck alive. Perhaps some of you master deck builders can take this idea and run with it in a direction to make it more viable. I only goldfished this deck, and have not had any viable testing. Please let me know what u think, or if you have any ideas that may help.

U/G Counterpost
4 Primeval titan
1 Ulamog, The Ceasless Hunger
1 Emrakul, The Aeons torn
3 Torrential Gearhulk
---------------------------------9 Creatures
2 Show and Tell
4 Brainstorm
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Crop Rotation
2 Pithing Needle
2 Warping Wail
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Expedition Map
2 Moment’s Peace
------------------------------27 Spells

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
--------------------------------24 Lands

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Trickbind
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
1 Moment’s Peace

The idea was to have main deck countermagic early to fight fast combo decks, or delver strategies that may pose to fast of a clock for us to beat. I would also use moments peace and chain of vapors to hopefully live long enough to get a finisher out to win the game. The torrential gearhulk is really meant to be flashed in to recast any of ur instants already in the graveyard, this includes all of ur counterspells. In the end, the basic strategy is the same, get out a big eldrazi and win, but u can now also win if your opponent doesn't have an answer for your gearhulk. It can also go toe to toe with most average tarmogoyf power/toughness. The sideboard is constructed to further help against aggro strats, as well as reanimator, or dredge decks.

[HomicidalRambo]

Sad day indeed. I guess I'm too late to bitch about the ban? Nah: those pigs just wrecked the most interesting deck in the format - UG post! god damn assholes. Top was one of the most intriguing and iconic cards in the format. It represented the power level that should exist in Legacy. Miracles & slow play cannot be an excuse for this travesty.

...moving on...

Do we have to play "prison MUD post" now? Is there no hope for UG?

Working on u/g control. Force/spell pierce MB with 2 Jace as well. 4 ponders for tops and 6-7 fetches. Flusters SB. Still crops/repeal MB for moon hate and tabby MB for aggro. New kozilek is extremely good since draw u a ton of counter magic with this build he sucked otherwise I thought in normal post. With combo about to go up in meta it's been good so far in combo decks I tested too early to tell. Only non prison route I see u/g having a chance. Show titan ramp and go. I see a ton of sneak n show hate...I see it being the top deck now. And elves about to go nuts with no miracles. If i get a deck playing well I can post...sadly as I said u/g maybe dead just a few variants out like I made. Colorless prison aka MUD post blaaaa is prob where deck heading

[ratninja]

Just got my candelabras 10 days ago, time to crush Miracles! I played a colorless 12-post variant mashed with Phillesh's Eldrazi Ramp list and my want to play Sundering Titan. Went 4-0, in order:
2-1 vs Enchantress
2-0 vs Lands (maindecking Ghost Quarter, Ports and Wastelands)
2-0 vs Cg 12-post
2-0 vs Bant Stoneforge

[TheBoozeCube]

Sad day indeed. I guess I'm too late to bitch about the ban? Nah: those pigs just wrecked the most interesting deck in the format - UG post! god damn assholes. Top was one of the most intriguing and iconic cards in the format. It represented the power level that should exist in Legacy. Miracles & slow play cannot be an excuse for this travesty.

...moving on...

Do we have to play "prison MUD post" now? Is there no hope for UG?

I just picked up my Show & Tells last week to try UG, so this makes me sad.

Personally, I thing Cg is the way to go now (although I've been on it forever, so I'm biased). The playstyle has a lot of overlap with UG, insofar as it's a highly interactive control build with ample card selection. It's just more about board control instead of stack control.

I do think it's well poised, depending on where the meta goes. The large removal suite gives Cg a ton of game against all the creature decks that wanted Terminus gone. MUD is definitely better vs combo, but even Cg's Storm matchup isn't that horrible — unfavorable, yes, but still quite winnable (especially if you can take game 1).

But the biggest point in favor of moving to Cg from UG, IMO, is that you get a similar caliber of card selection. Ancient Stirrings is absurdly powerful in Cg. I've won plenty of games off mulls to 4-5 where I all I really had was a green source and multiple Ancient Stirrings. And depending on where the meta goes, Ancient Stirrings gives you consistent access to a lot of colorless sideboard tech to shore up the combo matchups.



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[prdgchild]

I just picked up my Show & Tells last week to try UG, so this makes me sad.

Personally, I thing Cg is the way to go now (although I've been on it forever, so I'm biased). The playstyle has a lot of overlap with UG, insofar as it's a highly interactive control build with ample card selection. It's just more about board control instead of stack control.

I do think it's well poised, depending on where the meta goes. The large removal suite gives Cg a ton of game against all the creature decks that wanted Terminus gone. MUD is definitely better vs combo, but even Cg's Storm matchup isn't that horrible — unfavorable, yes, but still quite winnable (especially if you can take game 1).

But the biggest point in favor of moving to Cg from UG, IMO, is that you get a similar caliber of card selection. Ancient Stirrings is absurdly powerful in Cg. I've won plenty of games off mulls to 4-5 where I all I really had was a green source and multiple Ancient Stirrings. And depending on where the meta goes, Ancient Stirrings gives you consistent access to a lot of colorless sideboard tech to shore up the combo matchups.



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literally this. ancient stirrings pushes this deck to an absurdly consistent build.

[Rock Lee]

Recently have been having the most success with this fluctuant build:

// Lands
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
5 [8E] Forest (2)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [B] Savannah

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [OGW] Kozilek, the Great Distortion

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 [ROE] Ancient Stirrings
4 [OGW] Warping Wail
4 [KLD] Woodweaver's Puzzleknot
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [OD] Moment's Peace

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [M15] Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [C14] Containment Priest
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 [EMA] Nature's Claim

Cards that are iffy: Koz 2.0, Containment Priest/Teeg /w GSZ.
Still unsure about the minor white splash. More testing will be required.

Cards that are optimal inclusions: Inspiring Statuary, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Aetherworks Marvel, Ensnaring Bridge > Moment's Peace.

Overall this is my favorite build post-top banning. By far my most successful in testing. Only real worry would be if Omnishow takes off again, it will require a bit of a revamp.

[Postman]

Recently have been having the most success with this fluctuant build:

// Lands
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
5 [8E] Forest (2)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [B] Savannah

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [OGW] Kozilek, the Great Distortion

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 [ROE] Ancient Stirrings
4 [OGW] Warping Wail
4 [KLD] Woodweaver's Puzzleknot
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [OD] Moment's Peace

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [M15] Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [C14] Containment Priest
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 [EMA] Nature's Claim

Cards that are iffy: Koz 2.0, Containment Priest/Teeg /w GSZ.
Still unsure about the minor white splash. More testing will be required.

Cards that are optimal inclusions: Inspiring Statuary, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Aetherworks Marvel, Ensnaring Bridge > Moment's Peace.

Overall this is my favorite build post-top banning. By far my most successful in testing. Only real worry would be if Omnishow takes off again, it will require a bit of a revamp.


Interesting. But what about the 4 Woodweaver's Puzzleknot? If Glimmerpost's lifegain isn't good enough, could Heroes' Reunion be an alternative? Or good old Obstinate Baloth, providing only 4 life, but also big beef and a nice card to troll Lilly's -2^^

[Rock Lee]

Interesting. But what about the 4 Woodweaver's Puzzleknot? If Glimmerpost's lifegain isn't good enough, could Heroes' Reunion be an alternative? Or good old Obstinate Baloth, providing only 4 life, but also big beef and a nice card to troll Lilly's -2^^

puzzleknot is mostly for messing around with energy mechanics. Atm the mono green build has 3 variations. Straight ramp, energy /w puzzleknots&marvel/Dynavolt, and statuary /w tracker. They're weirdly all viable, and oddly top and miracles' removal makes all these possible.

[maCHOOga]

When I pulled up MTGO last night to a "!" message on my deck containing banned cards, I shed a tear. Planning to try a GW build on Community Legacy League tonight of with Tops replaced with a 3x Sylvan Library and a Courser of Kruphix. I played one prelim game last night against, high tide; when I proceeded to F6 walk away and get a sandwich.

[Cyborg]

Thinking mindbreak traps are going to become a staple for our sideboard in this meta. Maybe something else but I think right out the gates everyone is going to be bringing weird combo decks.

[Rock Lee]

This is my preliminary post-top U/G list. I like this list the most against a completely unknown meta. Mono green will likely edge it out once the meta is known and especially if the meta is more midrange and less combo:

// Lands
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [8E] Forest (2)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [UNH] Island
1 [V12] Glacial Chasm
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [EXP] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [GPX] Primeval Titan

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [EMA] Sylvan Library
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [CN2] Show and Tell
3 [MD1] Relic of Progenitus
3 [M10] Ponder
4 [OGW] Warping Wail

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [EMA] Nature's Claim
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [AER] Walking Ballista
SB: 1 [SOI] Tireless Tracker

Major theme is Ponder/Sylvan library to fix draw issues top fixed, relic/map to smooth colored needs, needle because it is incredible, and warping wail hits the unleashed combo decks with miracle's departure (infect/elves/storm/omnisneaky). Notable combo decks that WW misses are Big Red, Belcher, Food chain, Aluren, Enchantress. Hence the focus on multi spell hate and enchantment/artifact destruction in the sb. I may go higher on the nature's claim coverage as it has been doing some major lifting in testing.

[Razorking]

Tuscan Clay


A.K.A. Green Mud post

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
4 Glimmerpost
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
7 Forest
4 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tangle Wire
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Crop Rotation
3 Trinisphere
3 Expedition Map
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Conduit of Ruin
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Thought-Knot Seer

1 Song of the Dryads
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
3 Warping Wail
2 Surgical Extraction


YUP

69 cards main!

i probably want to cut it down but so much of it is tutor targets for crop/eye/conduit/stirrings. I could not bring my self to abandon crop rotation and stirrings. Their utility remains astounding for fighting all the combo i have seen recently. There is tons by the way and i see a lot of sneak/show/omni decks. Thoughtknot is amazing and being able to get him turn 2 with temple, tomb, candle, post and eye. I can play pretty agro with the TKS into conduit into Ulamog/emperion as my turn 2/3/4 respectively. IT IS SO AMAZING.

The tangles and trinispheres have been amazing too! turn twoing them feels soooooooooo sweet. Amazing maindeck to just show a storm player or a delver player. Tangle wire RIPS delver into little pieces.

i don't know if i want to cut down cards, i should but i want to do a ton more testing to see what deserves the cut.

The idea of running Show and Tell in this meta seems REALLLLLLLLLLYYYYY BAAAAAAAADDDDDD. The idea of main deck combo hate with an endgames that goes over control decks and being in a spot where my hate is really good against aggro too! Trinispher is best against burn where as i find tangle wire amazing against the Temur/ 4 color / true name delver lists.






So, i forsee a few options:

1 MUDDY 12 post with lockpieces, rocks and keys for acceleration and TKS next to trnisphere and challice but a 12 post end game with ulamog and friends

2 Green Post Green sun zenith with titan oracle and arbor targets and crop rotation stirrings package.

3 A hybrid between both (what i am playing and proposing as best)

4 12 post and TELL U/G post with forces and/or other counters main such as fluster storm



Final Notes:
Not sold at all on woodweaver's puzzle knot/ energy strats.

I think i need crazy combo hate in my side

I think green sun zenith post decks should main Teeg as a option in game 1

I think crop rotation for bog or krakas is super important

Krosan grip for omni show sneak style decks is super important

increased numbers of chalice and other lock pieces in the meta probably mean you need to tote around 4 k-grip

I would not be surprised in my side becomes 4 Grip and 11 combo hate cards

Winter orb main is interesting, between playing it when it is good for you and having candle it can be very good for delver/greedy combo mana bases. It may not be correct idk i have not tested.


I NEED TO TEST SO MUCH MORE. i am waiting for mtg top 8 top 8 to spit numbers for new meta


GOOD LUCK EVERYONE- ADAPT AND EVOLVE

[Razorking]

Rock lee, those main deck relic might be perfect for this meta. I might try testing them.

[k_omega]

I'm getting some promising results from a U/G build using new Nissa and her Oath in conjunction with Courser of Kruphix, Oracle of Mul Daya, Brainstorm, and Sylvan Library to manipulate the top of the deck. The deck has real potential but my testing time is limited so far and there's room for improvement.

Observations so far:
1) I definitely don't miss Top very much. Courser/Oracle are helpful as possible hits off a blind Nissa flip, they protect her, and they help you not make blind flips.
2) Brainstorm/Library + Nissa + Courser/Oracle is absurd.
3) Many more opening hands are keepable than I'm used to. Oath pulls a lot of weight here.
4) Playing Nissa encourages playing some number of Moment's Peace.
5) Ugin is awkward with Nissa.
6) A huge Nissa allowing for her -6 on two consecutive turns can be realistic. I beat Storm that way.
7) Dark Depths has not performed.
8) Blind-flipping with Nissa on 1 is pretty bad, even in a build with ~30 lands.

[Hopo]

In post-top era Mindbreak Trap is a trap, at least against storm. It's dishonest to think storm players would go off blind and you can't float your hoser on top of your deck anymore. Maybe it works against aluren, food chain and such. You have Grip for those, though.

Walking ballista seems like a good fit.

[TheBoozeCube]

In post-top era Mindbreak Trap is a trap, at least against storm. It's dishonest to think storm players would go off blind and you can't float your hoser on top of your deck anymore. Maybe it works against aluren, food chain and such. You have Grip for those, though.

Walking ballista seems like a good fit.

Not necessarily. I used to play Mindbreaks when we had a very Storm-heavy local meta a while ago. And that was before Warping Wail gave nonblue builds access to countermagic.

They only have so much discard. And they often have to go off blind because you're threatening to untap with enough mana for an Eldrazi. Mix Traps up with some permanent-based hate, and it's still a strong option if ANT becomes the deck to beat again.


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[Ceralyst]

Scroll Rack seems like it would be decent SDT substitute. Allows you to put the dead cards back on top and draw new ones, which can be then shuffled away via fetches, crop rotations etc., so you can find new top deck cards. It also lets you hide any cards from your opponent by just putting them on the top and drawing others. Could be better than Sylvan Library? Again sorry no testing, just spit balling while at work.

[Skriger]

Here is the build I've been goldfishing and do like it a lot. I would have to agree Nissa paired with her Oath and Oracle/courser is a very powerful tool. Oath allows to get nissa onine very easily as well as card selection. I also really like Walking Ballista in this build for board control but it doesn't play well with Nissa unless you run ponders. Problem I feel is that Abrupt Decay will chew this deck up badly. Courser feels beefier because of his defense but then is in decay range. Sideboard is odd. The deck fairs horrible against Omni decks, Blood moon isn't much of an issue with Oath running. Sylvan Library is interesting, might bring down to 2. Expedition Maps helps for shuffling primarily during my tests. Almost would want to run Ponder instead or Ancient Stirrings. Also thought about putting TKS instead of Maps to give Nissa better coverage.


Lands
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Cloudpost
1x Eye of Ugin
2x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Glimmerpost
1x Thespian's Stage
4x Tropical Island
1x Vesuva
Spells
4x Brainstorm
2x Candelabra of Tawnos
1x Courser of Kruphix
3x Crop Rotation
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Emrakul, the Promised End
3x Expedition Map -- Flexible slot. Thought-Knot Seer; Ponder; Ancient Stirrings seems to fit here.
3x Nissa, Steward of Elements
3x Oath of Nissa
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
2x Pithing Needle
3x Primeval Titan
3x Sylvan Library
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3x Walking Ballista

Sideboard
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Krosan Grip
3x Show and Tell
3x Surgical Extraction
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2x Trinisphere

[Leshrac82]

Problem I feel is that Abrupt Decay will chew this deck up badly.

I'm pretty sure Abrupt Decay will go down in numbers. From the few new lists i have seen so far (5-0 lists on MTGO), most combo decks that used to run a playset in the board like Storm have completely cut them. And even in most fair BGx decks i don't see a full playset any more. It's not going completely away, but it just got much worse without Counterbalance in the format.

Especially seeing that combo decks move away from that option makes me think hateful permanents could be the best option to attack combo decks right now. My idea for a GSZ based build is to play Gaddock Teeg maindeck as a bullet to instawin game 1 against Storm and similar decks. I'm already doing that, and compared between a deck with Teeg maindeck and no other useful cards against Storm in the maindeck (no Crop Rotation, no Warping Wail, no discard) and a deck without Teeg and ~6 useful cards against Storm, the deck with Teeg has probably ~40% winrate game 1 while the other one has probably ~25% winrate game 1. (But keep in mind, i'm playing a lot of early acceleration, so 3 mana for a GSZ->Teeg on turn 2 is very often possible.)


About Sylvan Library: I tested more with it before the top ban. I liked it better than Top for my build anyway, because i am lower to the ground and can more often use it to draw extracards. But i would probably not play more than 2: Unlike Top, multiple Libraries are an issue - the first Library is great, but any other one in hand is usually a dead card. Rather play other card advantage options like Courser or Tracker (both get better with less Abrupt Decays in the format). And Nissa is certainly an option too, i still want to test her in my build since i'm splashing blue anyway.

About Scroll Rack: Tried that too, just because i wanted to understand why nobody would consider it. Sometimes it's great and better than any other option. However, there are too many situations where you really need to dig for action, and it doesn't help because you don't have enough cards in hand (very common problem later in the game against BGx decks with discard). I don't think Scroll Rack is playable for us.


Some other GSZ-bullets i'm trying:
- Spike Weaver: I like him a lot more than Dawn Strider as an option to have a permanent that fogs. In the short time i tested Dawnstrider, it hasn't won me any game. Spike Weaver on the other hand was more than once the one card that made the difference, getting 3 extra turns to set up is often huge. In the current Metagame Eldrazi is mostly gone (it's great against them), but Spike Weaver is great against Elves too - you will often get the time to set it up, they can't kill it and it gives you the time to combo yourself. And it's situationally useful against every fair deck, in my opinion a valid maindeck option.
- Atraxa: The color requirements are problematic, i'll admit that - even in my deck with Mox Diamonds she can get stuck in hand. But even before the ban i wanted to play her, and she was horrible against Miracles. Usually you GSZ for her anyway. Atraxa is insane against Delver, still very useful against non-white fair decks and a relevant finisher against most combo decks. Also, her "flavor text" Proliferate is a nice combo with Spike Weaver, and it's useful with Walking Ballista too (and if i tried Nissa, that would be another card to use the Proliferate).
- Vizier of the Menagerie: Not much data yet, but i think in a very creature heavy build he can be useful. Helps with the casting costs in my build (since i'm now 4-color with Atraxa) and also against Blood Moon. (I had one testmatch against BigRed with it in the deck, and it won both games against an early Blood Moon without any pressure because i could cast all my creatures, even though i never removed the Blood Moon.)

Also: In a GW build with Walking Ballista and creatures like Knight of the Reliquary and Tireless Tracker, there is another relevant option to search for creatures with Recruiter of the Guard. That can also fetch some hate bears. Could be an option to play 1-2 of them - i'm not convinced yet, but it doesn't seem horrible at least.

Not sure if i can fit all of this into the same build (i'm trying right now, but i might need to cut some stuff for interaction).

[TheBoozeCube]

- Atraxa: The color requirements are problematic, i'll admit that - even in my deck with Mox Diamonds she can get stuck in hand. But even before the ban i wanted to play her, and she was horrible against Miracles. Usually you GSZ for her anyway. Atraxa is insane against Delver, still very useful against non-white fair decks and a relevant finisher against most combo decks. Also, her "flavor text" Proliferate is a nice combo with Spike Weaver, and it's useful with Walking Ballista too (and if i tried Nissa, that would be another card to use the Proliferate).

Are you playing Cascading Cataracts?



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[Leshrac82]

Are you playing Cascading Cataracts?



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Not yet, but that could be a good idea to try. My colored mana, not counting my creatures (1 Arbor, 1 Deathrite, 1 Sylvan Caryatid) is currently:
3 Mox Diamond
5 Fetchlands
2 Forest
1 Tropical
1 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland

Maybe i should try the Cataracts, never really thought about that.

[Zotmaster]

About Scroll Rack: Tried that too, just because i wanted to understand why nobody would consider it. Sometimes it's great and better than any other option. However, there are too many situations where you really need to dig for action, and it doesn't help because you don't have enough cards in hand (very common problem later in the game against BGx decks with discard). I don't think Scroll Rack is playable for us.

I don't think Scroll Rack is ever going to work unless card drawing - Endbringer, Coercive Portal, Staff of Nin, or whatever - is run along side it.

I sort of worry that we're looking to make this too complex. It's totally sweet that everything is on the table with big mana, but I think moving toward a more streamlined plan - even if it's something cancerous like Stax - is the way to go. I loved Rock's Stax list and I'm also dabbling with white.

Then again, maybe Cascading Cataracts makes me look like an idiot and anything is possible. Who knows?

[Razorking]

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
4 Glimmerpost
1 Ancient Tomb
3 Eldrazi Temple
6 Forest
4 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tangle Wire
3 Ancient Stirrings
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Crop Rotation
3 Trinisphere
2 Expedition Map
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Conduit of Ruin
1 Platinum Emperion
3 Thought-Knot Seer

2 Cursed Totem
1 All is Dust
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
2 Warping Wail

I cut down to 60. Advice please?

[Roweboater]

Here is the build I've been goldfishing and do like it a lot. I would have to agree Nissa paired with her Oath and Oracle/courser is a very powerful tool. Oath allows to get nissa onine very easily as well as card selection. I also really like Walking Ballista in this build for board control but it doesn't play well with Nissa unless you run ponders. Problem I feel is that Abrupt Decay will chew this deck up badly. Courser feels beefier because of his defense but then is in decay range. Sideboard is odd. The deck fairs horrible against Omni decks, Blood moon isn't much of an issue with Oath running. Sylvan Library is interesting, might bring down to 2. Expedition Maps helps for shuffling primarily during my tests. Almost would want to run Ponder instead or Ancient Stirrings. Also thought about putting TKS instead of Maps to give Nissa better coverage.


Lands
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Cloudpost
1x Eye of Ugin
2x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Glimmerpost
1x Thespian's Stage
4x Tropical Island
1x Vesuva
Spells
4x Brainstorm
2x Candelabra of Tawnos
1x Courser of Kruphix
3x Crop Rotation
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Emrakul, the Promised End
3x Expedition Map -- Flexible slot. Thought-Knot Seer; Ponder; Ancient Stirrings seems to fit here.
3x Nissa, Steward of Elements
3x Oath of Nissa
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
2x Pithing Needle
3x Primeval Titan
3x Sylvan Library
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3x Walking Ballista

Sideboard
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Krosan Grip
3x Show and Tell
3x Surgical Extraction
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2x Trinisphere

I think Sylvan Carytid might be a good option here for defending Nissa?

[Skriger]

I think Sylvan Carytid might be a good option here for defending Nissa?

True but I couldn't figure a good spot. Perhaps dump the maps, replace 2 with Ponder, remove 1 Walking Ballista, remove 1 forest. That clears up for 3, but still feel i need 4. Ideas?

[k_omega]

True but I couldn't figure a good spot. Perhaps dump the maps, replace 2 with Ponder, remove 1 Walking Ballista, remove 1 forest. That clears up for 3, but still feel i need 4. Ideas?

In my build I cut the Primeval Titans since Nissa provides ramp and is easier to cast. I have been thinking about adding a GSZ package to find Courser/Oracle more reliably and get T1 Dryad Arbors to get double green for Courser. Caryatid could work in that structure, and you don't have to fill slots with mana dorks that clutter your late game.

[Postman]

My current list:

4 Cloudposts
4 Glimmerposte
1 Vesuva
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty rainforest
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Cavern of Souls

4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Walking Ballista

1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Show and Tell
4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation
4 Warping Wail
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Pithing Needle
2 Engineerd Explosives
3 Toxic Deluge
3 Expedition Map

Sideboard:

4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
2 Moment's Peace

Played a trial today, 114 players, 7 rounds.

Round 1: Miracles.

It's some kind of running gag, lost 0-2. Yes. Don't ask, take it.

Round 2: Aggro Loam

Won 2-0. Opponent didn' find Chalice, Needle on Knight, Bojuka for LftL. Got wasted once or twice, Titan doing it's job...Game 2 he needled my Eye of Ugin. 2 Titans in play, opponent has Dark Depths with 8 counters on it. I attack, go for the Vesuva, copying DD, paying the 30 Mana instantly, opponent conceeds...^^

Round 3: TNN Bant

Won 2-0. No real pressure, despite TNN with Jitte. Ramped fast, quick wins.

Round 4: Grixis Delver (or 4c)

Won 2-1. Very, very close games, including some strange plays like making a Scion with Warping Wail twice, copying Opponent's Wasteland to destroy his Badlands (Worked great, has been screewed for several turns)

Round 5: Elves

Won 2-1. Again very, very close games. He wins game 1, I manage to take games 2-3. Chasm and Deluge are great

Round 6: Grixis Delver (or 4c)

Won 2-1. Yeah, you know...very, very close games. Game 1: Needle on Wasteland. Game 2: Needle on Wasteland. Never saw a copy. Game 3? Sure, Needle on Wasteland. And yes, he played them Abrupt Decay on Needle, Wasteland...). But topdeck Titan, followed by Ulamog soon...

Round 7: Storm

Won 2-1. Yeah, really. Game 1 was a quick loss. Bringing 11 cards for games 2-3...Safe play, turn 4 or 5 SnT into Emrakul. Same game 3, playing Warping Wail on Ponder, plus 2 FoW and 1 Flusterstorm when opponents looks at my hand. SnT into Emrakul...GG. Had to take a mulligan, but it has been a great 6, developing even better.

Final standings: 7th place, winning a Bye for the main event plus a Snapcaster Mage.

Overall I'm super happy. Yes, lost to Miracles. Miracles without SDT (he played Portent). Can't help it, it's my Nemesis. But also won against several difficult MUs (Elves, Aggro Loam and Storm). So I will have to play the deck in the main event again, no choice...^^

Will make some minor changes, probably cutting Ugin and Ballista. In 7 rounds, I played Ballista 2 times, Ugin only once or even not a single time, not sure.

[maCHOOga]

My friend just posted the MKM results from the first large legacy tournament in the post-Miracle world, 440 players. They even gave the metagame breakdown, I took the data data and converted it to percentages. Looks like elves/storm was only 15% of the brave new world.

8.6% Grixis Delver
7.5% Sneak and Show
7.5% Death and Taxes
6.8% Stoneblade
6.6% Elves
5.9% Storm
5.7% Reanimator
5.0% Shardless BUG
3.6% Food Chain
3.6% Infect
3.4% Aggro Loam
3.4% Burn
3.2% Bug Delver
2.3% Dredge
2.0% Lands
24.8% Other archetypes

[Postman]

My friend just posted the MKM results from the first large legacy tournament in the post-Miracle world, 440 players. They even gave the metagame breakdown, I took the data data and converted it to percentages. Looks like elves/storm was only 15% of the brave new world.

8.6% Grixis Delver
7.5% Sneak and Show
7.5% Death and Taxes
6.8% Stoneblade
6.6% Elves
5.9% Storm
5.7% Reanimator
5.0% Shardless BUG
3.6% Food Chain
3.6% Infect
3.4% Aggro Loam
3.4% Burn
3.2% Bug Delver
2.3% Dredge
2.0% Lands
24.8% Other archetypes

Yes, I can confirm this meta, since I played the tournament. Didn't as good as the day before, but 12 Post is still alive. 10 rounds, 1 bye, so 9 matches. Played against:

- Canadian (W)
- Death & Taxes (L)
- Elves (W)
- Burn (L)
- Shardless BUG (W)
- Cloudpost Eldrazi (colorless) (W)
- TNN BUG (L)
- Big Red (L)
- Grixis Delver (L)

D&T loss was due to a bad mistake I made, TNN BUG was a coinflip - decision I hab to make G3, decided "wrong". Only Burn and Big Red seemed to be unwinable. Had a 1-off - fun-off in the SB I loved: Elesh Norn! Played 4 SnT + 1 Quicksilver Amulet, and Elesh took G2 against Elves^^

[TheBoozeCube]

Walking Ballista seems excellent in a Trinket Mage package, but I don't understand the reason to include it otherwise. It seems rather inefficient from a pure mana sense. Is there something I'm not seeing here?


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[Postman]

Walking Ballista seems excellent in a Trinket Mage package, but I don't understand the reason to include it otherwise. It seems rather inefficient from a pure mana sense. Is there something I'm not seeing here?


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Agree. Tried it without TM and was disappointed. Never fetched it with Eye of Ugin, only used it twice. Almost bad in starting 7, late game it feels like win-more.

[Zotmaster]

Rock's Winter Orb list intrigued the hell out of me and I knew I wanted to brew something similarly evil. However, I don't have Rishadan Port yet and there are still other Legacy staples I need to pick up first, so I wanted to try a different orb...Static Orb. I threw together a list and so far it's been great. I've lost to nut draws and that's about it.

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Wasteland
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Blinkmoth Well
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Endbringer
4 Metalworker
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Expedition Map
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Static Orb
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Crucible of Worlds

SIDEBOARD:

3 Faerie Macabre
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Dismember
3 Warping Wail
2 Karn Liberated
2 Ratchet Bomb

It needs some tuning but I feel like there is a lot of potential: if you draw well, you mostly just blow people away. I should have known beforehand, but Walking Ballista definitely belongs in here: about the only problem the deck has is mid-late dead draws, and Ballista at least gives you something constructive to do with your mana. As much as I love the card, Wurmcoil is probably the casualty here. Karn is largely a meta call: my play group loves Null Rod and Pithing Needle and I like having options in general. I'm also tinkering with a mono-white list, but I think I'm going to work on this for at least a little while. The fact that it's fun to play is just gravy.

[Mockingbird]

I don't think Scroll Rack is ever going to work unless card drawing - Endbringer, Coercive Portal, Staff of Nin, or whatever - is run along side it.

I sort of worry that we're looking to make this too complex. It's totally sweet that everything is on the table with big mana, but I think moving toward a more streamlined plan - even if it's something cancerous like Stax - is the way to go. I loved Rock's Stax list and I'm also dabbling with white.

Then again, maybe Cascading Cataracts makes me look like an idiot and anything is possible. Who knows?

There's also Soothsaying. It would neither be as good as Sensei's Divining Top nor a four of, but it's a mana sink that digs a lot deeper than Sensei's ever did.

[Skriger]

Walking Ballista seems excellent in a Trinket Mage package, but I don't understand the reason to include it otherwise. It seems rather inefficient from a pure mana sense. Is there something I'm not seeing here?


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I treat him as a removal spell more than a creature. Having him sit in hand and not needed isn't really that bad. He could also be used as counterspell fodder if it ends up being a dead spell in hand. Even in that situation, most of those types of decks would have a hard dealing with it once it is on the field. I will agree though that Trinket Mage makes it a more viable card option.

My question to the group is what is the fascination with Cascading Cataracts?

What is the main purpose behind running this card? What actual uses do you need to filter for colored mana that badly that your deck couldn't handle in the first place?

[Leshrac82]

I treat him as a removal spell more than a creature. Having him sit in hand and not needed isn't really that bad. He could also be used as counterspell fodder if it ends up being a dead spell in hand. Even in that situation, most of those types of decks would have a hard dealing with it once it is on the field. I will agree though that Trinket Mage makes it a more viable card option.

My question to the group is what is the fascination with Cascading Cataracts?

What is the main purpose behind running this card? What actual uses do you need to filter for colored mana that badly that your deck couldn't handle in the first place?

Initially i was sceptical about Walking Ballista in a list without Trinket Mage, but it worked great for me so far - and i also like to treat it as a removal spell. Playing a 1/1 Ballista to trade with a Delver is not the ceiling on that card, but i'm always willing to do that. Sometimes Ballista is just 1-for-1 removal, very often it's 2-for-1 or better, sometimes it completely takes over the board (happens most often against DnT, Elves or Infect), and sometimes it's just a big finisher. In my list, i like to play it with Volrath's Stronghold - don't know how good that is right now, but it was great inevitability against Miracles, and if control decks without Deathrite Shaman are a relevant part of the meta again, that would be a nice option to have.

Cascading Cataracts is most likely not good. Thought about it a little bit now, but it's just very rare for me to have lots of mana but not enough colored sources. It could work better in a list without many colored sources and many color requirements, but that would have to be rather extreme (something like Mono-G splashing Atraxa), and even then i'm not sure it's good enough.

[HomicidalRambo]

I know ppl have tried omniscience in the past. What are their thoughts. Basically like the hybrid sneak Omni build but cloudpost show with Omni. Only need 7 mana with eye for casting the big boys. Running a lot of counters MB and doesn't fold to karakas it loves the card unlike sneak and show. Ponder instead of SDT. Have had some decent success thus far with it. Curious if worth pursuing. Tried 1-2 eureka as well with it and quite an interesting card. Any advice appreciated.

[TheBoozeCube]

My question to the group is what is the fascination with Cascading Cataracts?

What is the main purpose behind running this card? What actual uses do you need to filter for colored mana that badly that your deck couldn't handle in the first place?

1) The most obvious use, IMO, is Engineered Explosives. It makes it easy to set it all the way up to 5, which hits a lot more things than it did before in a 2-color deck — i.e., Liliana, Jace, Sneak Attack, Back to Basics, Mentor, TNN, etc..

2) It gives you the ability to make GG (or whatever) off a single land drop. This frees your other land drops for Loci and utility lands. And since land drops are one of the archetype's single most important resources, being able to condense them is worth exploring.

This is actually pretty exciting for a build like Cg, which doesn't want to spend land drops on non-Locus lands if it doesn't have to. The inefficiency of needing two Forests (unless you have a Candle out) was one of the reasons I originally cut Primeval Titans from my lists. I don't know if Cataracts is enough to make it worth running, but I like the idea of getting all my color needs from a single land drop.

3) It opens up some crazy sideboard space and brew space. With that kind of efficient filtering and the Post engine, we can conceivably cast any card in Magic.


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[TLK]

In what matchups does Moment's Peace typically shine?

My meta is mostly consistent of Esper Stoneblade, UR Delver, D&T, Jund, RDW.

[Rock Lee]

In what matchups does Moment's Peace typically shine?

My meta is mostly consistent of Esper Stoneblade, UR Delver, D&T, Jund, RDW.

moment's peace is for elves/infect/eldrazi aggro. everything else it is very interchangable

[Neko448]

1) The most obvious use, IMO, is Engineered Explosives. It makes it easy to set it all the way up to 5, which hits a lot more things than it did before in a 2-color deck — i.e., Liliana, Jace, Sneak Attack, Back to Basics, Mentor, TNN, etc..

2) It gives you the ability to make GG (or whatever) off a single land drop. This frees your other land drops for Loci and utility lands. And since land drops are one of the archetype's single most important resources, being able to condense them is worth exploring.

This is actually pretty exciting for a build like Cg, which doesn't want to spend land drops on non-Locus lands if it doesn't have to. The inefficiency of needing two Forests (unless you have a Candle out) was one of the reasons I originally cut Primeval Titans from my lists. I don't know if Cataracts is enough to make it worth running, but I like the idea of getting all my color needs from a single land drop.

3) It opens up some crazy sideboard space and brew space. With that kind of efficient filtering and the Post engine, we can conceivably cast any card in Magic.


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My problem with cataracts is that it doesn't do anything until you have ~6 mana, and you actually lose a mana in the process

[TheBoozeCube]

My problem with cataracts is that it doesn't do anything until you have ~6 mana, and you actually lose a mana in the process

I don't see a problem having 6+ colorless mana to filter in this deck. That's just two Cloudposts and a Candle. You can access this on turn 3.


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[TLK]

I got wrecked with Postman's 75 last night at my LGS (swapping the 2 Moment's Peace for 2 Blue Elemental Blast since there is a lot of red in my meta).

Round 1 vs Burn:

Win game one due to infinite Glimmerposts. Lose game 2 fairly quickly to a typical Burn hand. Lose game 3 while at 10 life. Price of Progress is good. I think I punted by not leaving up my green source to Crop Rotate for Glacial Chasm, but I didn't think he could kill me from that spot. Oh well.

0-1, 1-2

Round 2 vs D&T:

Easy. Show and Tell -> Emrakul gets there both games. Prime Time was big here too.

1-1, 2-0

Round 3 vs EsperBlade:

My deck literally does nothing for 2 games. I cast 4 Brainstorms in both games and drew nothing. Very weird match.

1-2, 0-2

Not sure if it was bad luck, bad matchups or bad piloting (maybe a combination of all three), but I didn't feel the explosiveness that others seem to experience from playing this deck.

[Skriger]

1) The most obvious use, IMO, is Engineered Explosives. It makes it easy to set it all the way up to 5, which hits a lot more things than it did before in a 2-color deck — i.e., Liliana, Jace, Sneak Attack, Back to Basics, Mentor, TNN, etc..

So Cascade cost for 5 just to blow up things at 5? I don't feel it's a decent use of your mana and card options. Oblivion stone cost a slight amount more and destroys more; Perilous Vault kills Marit Lage as well as more items; and subjectively All is Dust can do similar job with same amount of mana invested. Engineered Explosives is used more as a token killer than larger items.


2) It gives you the ability to make GG (or whatever) off a single land drop. This frees your other land drops for Loci and utility lands. And since land drops are one of the archetype's single most important resources, being able to condense them is worth exploring.

This is actually pretty exciting for a build like Cg, which doesn't want to spend land drops on non-Locus lands if it doesn't have to. The inefficiency of needing two Forests (unless you have a Candle out) was one of the reasons I originally cut Primeval Titans from my lists. I don't know if Cataracts is enough to make it worth running, but I like the idea of getting all my color needs from a single land drop.

3) It opens up some crazy sideboard space and brew space. With that kind of efficient filtering and the Post engine, we can conceivably cast any card in Magic.


I can see the attractiveness of being able to produce 5 of any color from Locus lands. To reinforce your perspective, opening hand this feels pretty bad to have in hand, much like having a Glacial Chasm. Being able to produce colored mana early game has always been very essential no matter the variant you are running. I could see myself saying "man I wish this was a XX land instead" more than being excited about Cataract showing up, just like Glacial Chasm. It's a filter land so technically you are not getting all your color needs from a single land since you need other lands to feed into it's ability. I would be much more happier with a Mana Confluence, Reflecting Pool, or Vivid Land in this slot or even a 2nd Cavern of Souls if it's to help cast creatures.


I don't see a problem having 6+ colorless mana to filter in this deck. That's just two Cloudposts and a Candle. You can access this on turn 3.

It's not the point you can pay to do such a thing, it's the reason we are questioning. Other than engineered explosives, all other spells this deck runs are at most only 2 colors with an attached colorless amount. Honestly running . Needing so much mana filtering in my opinion feels overly complicated when there is simpler and effective strategies that can be used.
Unless proven otherwise, I just can't see it making it's way into a 12-post list.

[Postman]

I got wrecked with Postman's 75 last night at my LGS (swapping the 2 Moment's Peace for 2 Blue Elemental Blast since there is a lot of red in my meta).

Round 1 vs Burn:

Win game one due to infinite Glimmerposts. Lose game 2 fairly quickly to a typical Burn hand. Lose game 3 while at 10 life. Price of Progress is good. I think I punted by not leaving up my green source to Crop Rotate for Glacial Chasm, but I didn't think he could kill me from that spot. Oh well.

0-1, 1-2

Round 2 vs D&T:

Easy. Show and Tell -> Emrakul gets there both games. Prime Time was big here too.

1-1, 2-0

Round 3 vs EsperBlade:

My deck literally does nothing for 2 games. I cast 4 Brainstorms in both games and drew nothing. Very weird match.

1-2, 0-2

Not sure if it was bad luck, bad matchups or bad piloting (maybe a combination of all three), but I didn't feel the explosiveness that others seem to experience from playing this deck.
Sorry you got wrecked :-/ But only 3 matches, and imo only 1 unexpected result. To me, burn is a really hard MU, and a loss is something like normal. D&T is usually a good MU, but they can have the nuts while you're flooded or something like that... But okay, so far 1:1 is the "normal" result after these 2 MUs. Esper Blade used to be a good MU, since the games usually take quite some time and the lategame belongs to 12 Post. But if the deck trolls you, like you wrote, it just happens. If you play like 10 matches against Esper Blade, you should have won like 6-7 of them 😉

[Rock Lee]

Been testing a combo-oriented build, with virtually zero protection and clearly focused on hard combo:

// Lands
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [8E] Forest (2)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
2 [UNH] Island
1 [V12] Glacial Chasm
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [EXP] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 [GPX] Primeval Titan
3 [AER] Walking Ballista

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [CN2] Show and Tell
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [M10] Ponder
3 [M13] Omniscience
3 [DDI] Preordain

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [EMA] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 [EMA] Force of Will


Candelabra could be added for extra blue filter. Titan and crop could be cut for candles and fow's possibly.

[Mockingbird]

I've started testing this deck again as well. It's been doing alright, but I've got a lot more testing to do. Notable matches so far are RG Combo-lands and a fair share of four color control.

//Lands: 26
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin

//Creatures: 10
2 Trinket Mage
4 Primeval Titan
1 Walking Ballista
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

//Artifacts: 8
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle

//Enchantments: 2
1 Soothsaying
1 Sylvan Library

//Instants: 9
4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation
2 Stifle

//Planeswalkers: 2
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

//Sorceries: 3
3 Show and Tell

//Sideboard: 15
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Force of Will
2 Krosan Grip
2 Warping Wail


Things that my testing has shown me:

When I actually draw into my Soothsaying, I'll tell you how it plays. Theoretically, early game it's a mana sink for a less effective Sensei's Divining Top, and late game it's essentially a Vampiric Tutor that doesn't shuffle when it's done. Is it worth the space? Once again, to be determined.

Stifle was initially Trickbind, but since I was essentially sniping fetchlands most of the time, I decided to risk the one drop one for the time being. If Griselbrand or Split Second become more relevant, I'll switch back.

With Deathrite Shaman being praised as the best creature in the format right now, Pithing Needle is good. Good beyond halting Wasteland.

One thing I may try since I encountered a lot of low curves is siding Chalice of the Void (then again, that's also from the fact I'm coming back from playing MUD-Post and Legends of Colorless/Big Eldrazi for the past year), and Trinket Mage helps them out.

More testing to come, but I will say that I feel the demise of the Classic control of "12-Post" has been greatly exaggerated.

[Cyborg]

Candelabra could be added for extra blue filter. Titan and crop could be cut for candles and fow's possibly.

Why not just go full omnishow at that point? That deck is pretty good.
Have you thought about running ancient stirrings here instead of the preordains? Possibly new nissa.
Also imo some number of trinket mages are great if you're running ballistas.

[nimkee]

I've started testing this deck again as well. It's been doing alright, but I've got a lot more testing to do. Notable matches so far are RG Combo-lands and a fair share of four color control.

//Lands: 26
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin

//Creatures: 10
2 Trinket Mage
4 Primeval Titan
1 Walking Ballista
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

//Artifacts: 8
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle

//Enchantments: 2
1 Soothsaying
1 Sylvan Library

//Instants: 9
4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation
2 Stifle

//Planeswalkers: 2
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

//Sorceries: 3
3 Show and Tell

//Sideboard: 15
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Force of Will
2 Krosan Grip
2 Warping Wail


Things that my testing has shown me:

When I actually draw into my Soothsaying, I'll tell you how it plays. Theoretically, early game it's a mana sink for a less effective Sensei's Divining Top, and late game it's essentially a Vampiric Tutor that doesn't shuffle when it's done. Is it worth the space? Once again, to be determined.

Stifle was initially Trickbind, but since I was essentially sniping fetchlands most of the time, I decided to risk the one drop one for the time being. If Griselbrand or Split Second become more relevant, I'll switch back.

With Deathrite Shaman being praised as the best creature in the format right now, Pithing Needle is good. Good beyond halting Wasteland.

One thing I may try since I encountered a lot of low curves is siding Chalice of the Void (then again, that's also from the fact I'm coming back from playing MUD-Post and Legends of Colorless/Big Eldrazi for the past year), and Trinket Mage helps them out.

More testing to come, but I will say that I feel the demise of the Classic control of "12-Post" has been greatly exaggerated.
Eureka might be cute with your package as well. How were the lands matchups? Any reports?

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[Mockingbird]

Eureka might be cute with your package as well. How were the lands matchups? Any reports?

Lands is Pithing Needle or bust.

Well, it's not just that, but the moment that my opponent sees a Locus land, they're on the Wasteland lock plan, and they're good at it between Life from the Loam, Manabond, and Crucible of Worlds. Maze of Ith is also worth protecting because ii keeps us from dying to the Marit Lage token. One game I was also blindsided by Ghost Quarter, and I would have lost if I hadn't Crop Rotation'ed into a Bojuka Bog.

[Zotmaster]

I don't see a problem having 6+ colorless mana to filter in this deck. That's just two Cloudposts and a Candle. You can access this on turn 3.


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As soon as I (sigh) start getting MTGO cards I'm planning on testing it, although right now I'm still testing my Static Orb build, and then I have another set of ideas I want to try.. The fact that Cascading Cataracts has indestructible is even more incentive.

[Mockingbird]

As soon as I (sigh) start getting MTGO cards I'm planning on testing it, although right now I'm still testing my Static Orb build, and then I have another set of ideas I want to try.. The fact that Cascading Cataracts has indestructible is even more incentive.

I am curious what you're planning to play with it because that level of filtering + Cloudpost mana, you could play just about any card in the game. Deus of Calamity, Magmatic Force (or any of the others in the cycle), Griselbrand or finisher that Show and Tell/Reanimator normally plays seems like places to start.

[Zotmaster]

I am curious what you're planning to play with it because that level of filtering + Cloudpost mana, you could play just about any card in the game. Deus of Calamity, Magmatic Force (or any of the others in the cycle), Griselbrand or finisher that Show and Tell/Reanimator normally plays seems like places to start.

We'll just have to see now, won't we? ;)

[Rock Lee]

Why not just go full omnishow at that point? That deck is pretty good.
Have you thought about running ancient stirrings here instead of the preordains? Possibly new nissa.
Also imo some number of trinket mages are great if you're running ballistas.

Omni's real weakness is it falters to simple hate and counters. (why its sideboards near its end of dominance ran pyromancers and boseiju). Omni and Sneaky/Omni has terrible game against DnT. This hybrid of 12post - Omni allows for escaping the weaknesses DnT Preyed on (need for Show and tell, not-created-based-wincons, and excess spells). The myr is mostly to experiment with show and tell mirrors and reactive show and tell type cards.

::EDIT:: by "myr" I mean shimmer myr, what I'm testing in the mono blue version.

// Lands
1 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
6 [UNH] Island
4 [EXP] Misty Rainforest
1 [EXP] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 [AER] Walking Ballista

// Spells
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [CN2] Show and Tell
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [M10] Ponder
3 [M13] Omniscience
4 [EMA] Force of Will
3 [OGW] Warping Wail
3 [DDI] Preordain
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [MD1] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [MBS] Shimmer Myr

[SwedishFish]

Hello!

Long-time lurker, first-time poster here. Been playing TheBoozeCube's list for some time now, and decided to give the red splash a go. Credit should also be given to user "Itisunfair" who sent me his G/R list.
Went 3-1 at the local tournament. Here's the list and all:

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
3 Taiga
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Maze of Ith
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Eye of Ugion
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm

4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Pithing Needle
3 Kozilek's Return
2 Warping Wail

1 All is Dust
2 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Worldbreaker
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sideboard:
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Trinisphere

Overall good feeling about this list. Matchups were BUG-control (1-2), Goblins (2-1), Standstill (2-0), and Sneak&Show (2-1). I'm thinking of replacing Warping Wail and Worldbreaker. Any suggestions?

[Skriger]

I've been deck testing this build below with a group and tossed it around in a small FNM last week. I tested it against Elves, Landstill, Goblins, Jeskai Delver, BU Reanimator, MUD and a few others that aren't coming to mind.

First off, this deck feels fine without Sensei's Divining Top. There is plenty of card selection going on to keep it running fairly smoothly. Ponder works really well with the deck but I really wish they were Brainstorm 5 & 6 to dump useless cards. Oath of Nissa is much better than I anticipated, very good card selection, makes having cloudpost paying for her cost much more stronger. Still haven't gotten Nissa, Steward of Elements running enough to conclude if she fits well. If I can resolve her, she gets ran over very quickly to be of any use. I was running 3 at first but it felt too much so I reduced to 2. I was thinking Caryatid would help keep aggro decks from going too wide but majority of time, they would get blown out from a prowess creature. This build feels like it needs a more ramp side to it. I think it would need to either go heavy Green Sun's Zenith build or go heavy blue control and put repeals and Force of Will. Warping Wail always felt like a dead card in my hand or didn't disrupt the enemy enough. I've been thinking more and more about making Leovold work in the deck. There is a huge influx of combo players and he just wrecks their day.

Side note; Our meta here didn't have many miracle players. Heavy Death and Taxes and Delver Variants. We had a 59 player tournament last weekend. Post SDT ban, we had much more combo decks creep out from the shadows (23 out of 59). Here is a link to the Meta chart (I ran a Eva Green / Rock variant I call "Rock Copter"): Fire & Dice GP Vegas Trial Top 8 (https://www.meta-chart.com/share/legacy-top8-5617) | Fire & Dice GP Vegas META (https://www.meta-chart.com/share/legacy-gpt-5617)

As you can see, a not friendly meta for a Cloudpost player.



//Lands (24)
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Cloudpost
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Thespian's Stage
4x Tropical Island

//Creature (12)
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Emrakul, the Promised End
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
3x Primeval Titan
4x Sylvan Caryatid
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

//Artifact (6)
2x Candelabra of Tawnos
2x Expedition Map
2x Pithing Needle

//Enchantment (3)
3x Oath of Nissa

//Instant (11)
4x Brainstorm
3x Crop Rotation
4x Warping Wail

//Sorcery (2)
2x Ponder

//Planeswalker (2)
2x Nissa, Steward of Elements

//Sideboard (15)
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Krosan Grip
3x Show and Tell
3x Surgical Extraction
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2x Trinisphere

[Neko448]

Omni's real weakness is it falters to simple hate and counters. (why its sideboards near its end of dominance ran pyromancers and boseiju). Omni and Sneaky/Omni has terrible game against DnT. This hybrid of 12post - Omni allows for escaping the weaknesses DnT Preyed on (need for Show and tell, not-created-based-wincons, and excess spells). The myr is mostly to experiment with show and tell mirrors and reactive show and tell type cards.

::EDIT:: by "myr" I mean shimmer myr, what I'm testing in the mono blue version.

// Lands
1 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
6 [UNH] Island
4 [EXP] Misty Rainforest
1 [EXP] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 [AER] Walking Ballista

// Spells
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [CN2] Show and Tell
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [M10] Ponder
3 [M13] Omniscience
4 [EMA] Force of Will
3 [OGW] Warping Wail
3 [DDI] Preordain
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [MD1] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [MBS] Shimmer Myr



I just cannot figure out this deck. What do you even cast with omniscience? Walking Ballista and omniscience seems like such a nonbo

[MechTactical]

Since the top ban, I've been lost and frankly, I still don't know in which direction to build. I've tackled an Omni build myself with intuition (Neko I can't figure out rock's Omni build either - ballista just doesn't seem to fit :confused:). I tried a more control-ish UG build with Jace, ponder, FoW and even snapcaster. Fooled around with builds running: natural order, oath of nissa, Eureka, etc. all sorts of stuff, but mostly I've been playing this weird thing below (UGW), well just a light W splash. The build is mostly based on Leshrac82 deck only with brainstorm and SnT. I just can't bring myself to drop them. Probably I should, but I guess I need time...

Land (27)

1x Bojuka Bog
4x Cloudpost
1x Dark Depths
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Eye of Ugin
2x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Savannah
1x Thespian's Stage
3x Tropical Island
1x Vesuva

Artifact (3)

3x Mox Diamond

Creature (12)

1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
4x Primeval Titan
1x Sylvan Caryatid
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Titania, Protector of Argoth
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

Instant (8)

4x Brainstorm
4x Crop Rotation

Sorcery (7)

4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Show and Tell

Enchantment (3)

2x Mirri's Guile
1x Sylvan Library

Sideboard (15)

2x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Flusterstorm
3x Krosan Grip
2x Moment's Peace
4x Surgical Extraction

Maybeboard (15)

1x Candelabra of Tawnos
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Dragonlord Dromoka
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Maze of Ith
1x Natural Order
1x Novablast Wurm
1x Progenitor Mimic + Terastodon
1x Rest in Peace
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

The xmage meta seems to have shifted to combo as well. Been playing against all sorts of combo decks. This build can get blown out by combo, but I've had the same issue with the more control-ish build as well (with FoW main!). Gaddock main, like Leshrac82 said, is probably a must in any GSZ build nowadays. The list needs much tweaking, especially the land base, though I didn't have any serious mana issues thus far. I've included a large maybeboard, including cards I tested or plan to test. Some of it is very cheeky (like Novablast wurm :eek:). I'm probably missing some key white card, which I could/should include. I'm very very pleased with canonist; she's the main reason for the W splash. She wins games in the face of the emerging combo infected meta. Again, using the wisdom of Leshrac82 I've included dark depths and have been pleased to have it. Its ability to finish a game on the spot is hugely important. Mirri's Guile has been useful. Mostly I get the best card and then GSZ or fetch for a fresh top deck next turn. Titania and Tracker have enormous potential and have won me several games. When I get them online, I usually don't have to go for the Eldrazi package.

With miracles gone GSZ seems like a reasonable card to play. Though, I don't know if it's correct to pair it with SnT. However, the ability to attack from so many different angles feels great overall.

[Leshrac82]

First off, this deck feels fine without Sensei's Divining Top. There is plenty of card selection going on to keep it running fairly smoothly. Ponder works really well with the deck but I really wish they were Brainstorm 5 & 6 to dump useless cards. Oath of Nissa is much better than I anticipated, very good card selection, makes having cloudpost paying for her cost much more stronger. Still haven't gotten Nissa, Steward of Elements running enough to conclude if she fits well. If I can resolve her, she gets ran over very quickly to be of any use. I was running 3 at first but it felt too much so I reduced to 2. I was thinking Caryatid would help keep aggro decks from going too wide but majority of time, they would get blown out from a prowess creature. This build feels like it needs a more ramp side to it. I think it would need to either go heavy Green Sun's Zenith build or go heavy blue control and put repeals and Force of Will. Warping Wail always felt like a dead card in my hand or didn't disrupt the enemy enough. I've been thinking more and more about making Leovold work in the deck. There is a huge influx of combo players and he just wrecks their day.

I'm trying to make Nissa work in my build, i'm also not sure if it's worth it yet - overall: Nissa can be great in grindy matchups, she is ok against combo (certainly not great, but they don't kill her and she can dig for more combo hate) and probably not very good against aggro decks, because they just kill her. Caryatid might help, i tried that too (also because it's great manafixing in a 4-color deck), but i'm not sure how good it defends her. My creature heavy approach is probably better to protect Nissa and doesn't really need Caryatid for that - and playing 4 Caryatids just seems wrong, it's not a great topdeck late in the game.
I agree with Warping Wail - i cut that some time ago, tried it again in the new meta, but it just doesn't do enough.
Leovold is playable in my current build, with Atraxa i'm playing the colors anyway. But it's not the nobrainer you would think it is in that situation - Leovold is better if you are already ahead in some way (on board against fair decks, and against combo decks if they need to draw something against your other hatecards in play or in hand). Leovold is not that great if you want to catch up against an aggressive deck or as the only hate card against combo decks. Right now i'm playing him, but i'm still undecided if i want him.



Since the top ban, I've been lost and frankly, I still don't know in which direction to build. I've tackled an Omni build myself with intuition (Neko I can't figure out rock's Omni build either - ballista just doesn't seem to fit :confused:). I tried a more control-ish UG build with Jace, ponder, FoW and even snapcaster. Fooled around with builds running: natural order, oath of nissa, Eureka, etc. all sorts of stuff, but mostly I've been playing this weird thing below (UGW), well just a light W splash. The build is mostly based on Leshrac82 deck only with brainstorm and SnT. I just can't bring myself to drop them. Probably I should, but I guess I need time...

Land (27)

1x Bojuka Bog
4x Cloudpost
1x Dark Depths
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Eye of Ugin
2x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Savannah
1x Thespian's Stage
3x Tropical Island
1x Vesuva

Artifact (3)

3x Mox Diamond

Creature (12)

1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
4x Primeval Titan
1x Sylvan Caryatid
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Titania, Protector of Argoth
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

Instant (8)

4x Brainstorm
4x Crop Rotation

Sorcery (7)

4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Show and Tell

Enchantment (3)

2x Mirri's Guile
1x Sylvan Library

Sideboard (15)

2x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Flusterstorm
3x Krosan Grip
2x Moment's Peace
4x Surgical Extraction

Maybeboard (15)

1x Candelabra of Tawnos
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Dragonlord Dromoka
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Maze of Ith
1x Natural Order
1x Novablast Wurm
1x Progenitor Mimic + Terastodon
1x Rest in Peace
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

The xmage meta seems to have shifted to combo as well. Been playing against all sorts of combo decks. This build can get blown out by combo, but I've had the same issue with the more control-ish build as well (with FoW main!). Gaddock main, like Leshrac82 said, is probably a must in any GSZ build nowadays. The list needs much tweaking, especially the land base, though I didn't have any serious mana issues thus far. I've included a large maybeboard, including cards I tested or plan to test. Some of it is very cheeky (like Novablast wurm :eek:). I'm probably missing some key white card, which I could/should include. I'm very very pleased with canonist; she's the main reason for the W splash. She wins games in the face of the emerging combo infected meta. Again, using the wisdom of Leshrac82 I've included dark depths and have been pleased to have it. Its ability to finish a game on the spot is hugely important. Mirri's Guile has been useful. Mostly I get the best card and then GSZ or fetch for a fresh top deck next turn. Titania and Tracker have enormous potential and have won me several games. When I get them online, I usually don't have to go for the Eldrazi package.

With miracles gone GSZ seems like a reasonable card to play. Though, I don't know if it's correct to pair it with SnT. However, the ability to attack from so many different angles feels great overall.

Interesting list. Let's go through it from top to bottom:
The lands seem ok, but i would like to play more than just 4 fetchlands - i'm at 6 fetchlands currently, and i cut Glacial Chasm and Vesuva, otherwise the manabase is pretty similar, just other fetchable lands.
Creatures: If you aren't splashin black at all, i don't think Deathrite is really worth it. In my current list i'm trying it without any Deathrites - the problem with Deathrite right now: 1. BR-Reanimator is too fast, it's almost never good enough against them because they go off on turn 1 all the time. 2. Every fair deck is playing 4 Deathrites, that makes our own Deathrite a very unreliable mana producer.
I replaced my Oracle with Courser, in my testing the better blocker and the lifegain and the lower manacost was just the better package over the ramp aspect - Oracle was better while i was still playing Crucible, but that's gone from the deck for good.

I never played 4 Primeval Titans in my deck - i suppose with Show and Tell you kinda have to, but i never played that either. Don't know how good that works, but it could be a good way to attack some fair (mostly BUG) decks that were always problematic for me.

What i'm missing in your deck:
1. Knight of the Reliquary. You should at least try one, it wins me so many games and makes the Dark Depths wins much easier.
2. The black splash: The biggest gain with the black splash is Toxic Deluge for me, having access to a cheap boardwipe wins many games against creature decks.

Also, Atraxa and Spike Weaver are great GSZ targets.

Going through all the cards in your maybeboard:
Candelabra: We attack on enough different angles, there is no reason to play a card that just speeds up the ramp plan.
Courser: Right now my replacement for Oracle.
Dragonlord Dromoka: Thought about that a bit, never actually played it: When i can GSZ for 6, i go for Primeval Titan pretty much always. I don't think i want a different 6 drop. Play Atraxa instead.
Scooze: Pretty much maybeboard for me too. Right now maindeck, sometimes just in the board, sometimes not at all. Scooze alone isn't enough against graveyard decks, but it can be a good follow up after a Crop Rotation to lock them out, and it can keep fair graveyard decks (with Knight of the Reliquary or Goyf for example) under control.
Witness: Also maybeboard. I played it for a while and was happy with it, i cut it because Deathrite Shaman is everywhere. Might still come back anyway.
Knight of the Reliquary: Maindeck card, one of the most important cards in the deck, never without it. (I tried a variation of my build without Knight for a few games, it was considerably worse.)
Maze of Ith: It's fine, but i also cut it - there were just too many lands that didn't produce mana in the deck, i almost never searched for it, so it is gone.
Natural Order: Never tried it, don't think i want it.
Novablast Wurm: I had to look that one up. The most simple counterargument: It costs 7 mana, and when you can GSZ for it, Primetime will be better pretty much every time.
Progenitor Mimic, Terastodon: Same problem, Primetime costs the same or less and is almost always the better GSZ target.
Rest in Peace: Nombo with Titania, probably not fast enough against Reanimator anyway.
Scryb Ranger: Doesn't do enough imo, there are better options against Delver.
Swords to Plowshares: Playable. Played that in some builds, but not right now. It has never been that impressive in this deck.
Sylvan Safekeeper: Nice combo with Titania - but that's it, we don't really want to sacrifice our lands otherwise. I thought about it too, but i don't think it's good enough.
Tabernacle: Might be necessary in your build, i prefer splashing black for Toxic Deluge as a more reliable answer.


I tried different ideas for my build on xmage, wasn't happy with most of them:
1. A build with 4x Chalice maindeck, no 1-drops. I thought that would be good in the new combo infested metagame - but it wasn't: Chalice is the only commonly played lockpiece every combo deck has to be prepared for, so it didn't improve the combo matchups that much, if at all, because i also had to replace my 1 mana combo hate with more expansive cards. And against most fair decks Chalice is pretty bad right now. There is a reason Eldrazi doesn't see much play any more.
2. A very extreme build with pretty much just creatures and lands. Wasn't very good unfortunately, i needed cheap spells to back up the creatures.

Next i wanted to try Nissa, and that idea has evolved into a more blue heavy build with actually 4x Brainstorm. The current list is not really finished, it needs more testing, some of it on xmage, some of it by myself. But this is what i'm currently trying:

61 cards:

Lands (26):

1x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Cloudpost
1x Dark Depths
1x Eye of Ugin
2x Forest
4x Glimmerpost
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Savannah
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswept Heath


Creatures (15):

1x Dryad Arbor
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Tireless Tracker
2x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Spike Weaver
1x Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1x Titania, Protector of Argoth
1x Primeval Titan
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells (20):

3x Mox Diamond
4x Brainstorm
2x Crop Rotation
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Sylvan Library
2x Nissa, Steward of Elements
1x Golgari Charm
2x Toxic Deluge


Sideboard (15):

2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Reclamation Sage
3x Flusterstorm
3x Thoughtseize
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Golgari Charm
1x Krosan Grip
1x Ensnaring Bridge


Apart from testing on xmage, i tried some preboard games by myself against combo decks. The results i had with that:
Against Storm (ANT): 27-23 with a slightly different list without Crop Rotation, so pretty much with just Teeg. 20 games won just by getting Teeg into play, usually on turn 2 or 3. The other 7 games: 1 win because of Leovold, 1 win because of Scooze, 2 wins because of Dark Depths, 3 wins because Storm stumbled so much other stuff was fast enough. I'm pretty sure with Crop Rotation it should be even better. And of course it gets much better postboard, so Storm is a good matchup.
Against Sneak&Show without Omniscience: 19-31 (same lists as i had against Storm, so no Crop Rotation and also notably no Golgari Charm. also no Titania). Teeg and Leovold both got a few wins, Knight/Primetime/Emrakul also got some wins. Overall it wasn't that bad, certainly manageable postboard with lots of hate.
Against Sneak&Show with Omniscience: 8-42 (same list again). The expected terrible result. Pretty much all my wins were because the other deck failed to find the combo. I think my current list is slightly better here. Gets better postboard, but this is clearly a very bad matchup.
Against BR-Reanimator: same list as before: 7-43. That was so bad i added the Crop Rotations and Bojuka Bog. next list: 20-30. Much better results, Crop Rotation did a lot of work. Notable: While Scavenging Ooze didn't do much in the list without Crop Rotation, it was a very solid card to close out the game in the second list - it's not fast enough alone, but it's a good follow up to Crop Rotation. The matchup gets much better postboard, i think the current list is favored against them.
Against Elves: 30-20. I played 2x Walking Ballista in these games, and the Ballistas were really lackluster. They were slightly relevant in maybe 4 or 5 games, but there wasn't a single game i'm sure i won just because of Ballista - that's why i cut them now. On the other hand, Spike Weaver was really strong, especially in combination with Atraxa. Once you have Spike Weaver and Atraxa on the battlefield, as long as your aren't low enough to be burned out with Deathrite Shaman, Elves can't win the game any more. And that still works postboard, they have no answer to these cards. I'm pretty sure this matchup is favorable, things should get slightly better postboard.
Against Mono-Red Sneakattack: (still with the Ballistas and without Titania and G-Charm) 17-13. Teeg has won many games, Dark Depths has also won a few games, Tracker was great. The matchup should get slightly better postboard, so it might be actually favorable. Mox Diamond is a very important tool in this matchup. If they get their combo working, we usually lose - but this deck can often win through a Blood Moon and a Chalice, and many of their hands just have 1 or 2 lockpieces and then you kill them (or lock them out with Teeg) before they draw into combo pieces. Also notable: Atraxa is a nice answer to Chalice (and Atraxa is a good way to race something like Wurmcoil or Inferno Titan).

I need to test some more matchups and also play this build on xmage.

(These numbers look like an incredible number of games, but if you test that like myself, it usually doesn't take much time - for example it took me just 2,5 hours to test the 50 games against Storm. Only the games against Elves took longer because they can get grindy, and i don't plan to test like that against grindy decks.)

[nimkee]

Recent list out of Japan, taking some of the Big Eldrazi pieces and slotting them into C/g minus the g:

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD07284W/

The top 8 was fairly combo heavy too.

Thoughts on this list?

2 Ancient Tomb
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
2 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Vesuva
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
3 Endbringer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Warping Wail
2 All Is Dust
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
4 Grim Monolith
4 Pithing Needle
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sideboard
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Lodestone Golem
2 Spatial Contortion
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Boompile
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Sphere of Resistance

[203995014]

Will UG post as we knew it before the ban ever be good again, or are we relegated to playing more aggressive or combotastic playstyles going forward?

[k_omega]

U/G Nissa builds have handled somewhat awkwardly in testing and, having no paper Nissas anyway, I took the following C/g list to FNM yesterday. It is basically TheBoozeCube's list but with Explores "replacing" 3 Candelabras and some minor substitutions due to card availability:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 New Emrakul, Old Emrakul, New Ulamog, Old Kozilek

4 Ancient Stirrings, Expedition Map, Crop Rotation, Warping Wail
3 Pithing Needle, Explore
2 All is Dust, Ugin
1 Candelabra, Moment's Peace

4 Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Vesuva
7 Forest
1 Eye, Karakas, Cavern of Souls, Glacial Chasm, Thespian's Stage, Tabernacle, Maze of Ith, Sea Gate Wreckage, Bojuka Bog

Sideboard:
3 Trinisphere, Krosan Grip
2 Sphere of Resistance, Surgical Extraction
1 Moment's Peace, Dark Depths, Engineered Explosives, Silent Arbiter, Thought-Knot Seer
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I won convincingly against Shardless, Lands, and Burn and lost in three games to Omni-Sneak (I keep losing that matchup 1-2). At no point did I miss Top and the deck feels powerful. Going forward I would replace Sea Gate Wreckage with a basic Forest and find room for a third Surgical in the sideboard.

Anyone who jumps ship on 12 Post and wants to sell/trade off Candelabras - let me know.

[Rock Lee]

I just cannot figure out this deck. What do you even cast with omniscience? Walking Ballista and omniscience seems like such a nonbo

Can you believe that I tested over 10 builds with omni and Walking Ballista thinking it was an instant kill? even brought it to events and people let me do it. (small events). Go figure. I'm pretty out of the game since my LGS closed up.

Here's what I was testing non-omni related though, and it is being quite resilient:

// Lands
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [8E] Forest (2)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [UNH] Island
1 [V12] Glacial Chasm
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [EXP] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [GPX] Primeval Titan

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [CN2] Show and Tell
3 [MD1] Relic of Progenitus
3 [OGW] Warping Wail
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [UGF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [EMA] Nature's Claim
SB: 3 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 3 [JGC] Flusterstorm

[Zotmaster]

I finally bought into MTGO so it's as good a time as any to stream again. Come watch a manchild stumble his way through a terrible client as he plays brews both great and terrible! Going live at about 1:45pm EST (about ten minutes from now).

http://www.twitch.tv/zotmaster

Come witness an appropriate amount of shenanigans and failure!

[prdgchild]

U/G Nissa builds have handled somewhat awkwardly in testing and, having no paper Nissas anyway, I took the following C/g list to FNM yesterday. It is basically TheBoozeCube's list but with Explores "replacing" 3 Candelabras and some minor substitutions due to card availability:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 New Emrakul, Old Emrakul, New Ulamog, Old Kozilek

4 Ancient Stirrings, Expedition Map, Crop Rotation, Warping Wail
3 Pithing Needle, Explore
2 All is Dust, Ugin
1 Candelabra, Moment's Peace

4 Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Vesuva
7 Forest
1 Eye, Karakas, Cavern of Souls, Glacial Chasm, Thespian's Stage, Tabernacle, Maze of Ith, Sea Gate Wreckage, Bojuka Bog

Sideboard:
3 Trinisphere, Krosan Grip
2 Sphere of Resistance, Surgical Extraction
1 Moment's Peace, Dark Depths, Engineered Explosives, Silent Arbiter, Thought-Knot Seer
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I won convincingly against Shardless, Lands, and Burn and lost in three games to Omni-Sneak (I keep losing that matchup 1-2). At no point did I miss Top and the deck feels powerful. Going forward I would replace Sea Gate Wreckage with a basic Forest and find room for a third Surgical in the sideboard.

Anyone who jumps ship on 12 Post and wants to sell/trade off Candelabras - let me know.

is the deck really better without gsz and oracle,/titans?

[k_omega]

is the deck really better without gsz and oracle,/titans?

I haven't played it enough to definitively say that it is better, but it seems at least playable. I suspect that a GSZ build like you describe is less feasible in the new environment.

Not having Top makes Oracle a lot worse and makes it more difficult to assemble double green for Primeval Titan. I think that the latter fact forces some serious modifications to the deck, especially considering that the consistency of non-blue builds is already being hurt across the board (this is why I played a lot of 4-ofs and 3-ofs). Keeping a 4GG card exacerbates that problem.

My criticism of GSZ is that since there is very little room for toolbox creatures in the maindeck (and few good options anyway), you usually can GSZ for Dryad Arbor, Oracle, or Primeval Titan. Playing Dryad Arbor means you sometimes draw it, at which point you immediately discover how bad it is in that situation (I just mentioned how getting GG is hard - when one of your Forests can get Swords-ed it's even harder). You don't get T1 GSZ for 0 often enough either and it is usually correct to hold the GSZ in order to fetch a Titan later, so now the stupid Dryad Arbor floats around in your deck to muck up your draw step. Note that this problem becomes even worse with no Tops. I've already explained why I think Oracle no longer fits the deck, so now the only real option is GSZ for Titan. But that means that you're effectively playing 6+ copies of Titan, which means you have more early-game dead cards. That is not what I want to deal with in a meta where combo is resurgent. In contrast, cards like Explore, Stirrings, Warping Wail can be cast at any stage of the game. And then you still have to deal with cases where you draw a Titan and need GG.

Without Titan it takes more time to beat Lands though, since you have to fight for ~10 mana instead of 6.

[Skriger]

Recent list out of Japan, taking some of the Big Eldrazi pieces and slotting them into C/g minus the g:


That is essentially a MUD list without metalworker. A bit of a different tactic.



Will UG post as we knew it before the ban ever be good again, or are we relegated to playing more aggressive or combotastic playstyles going forward?

Well that's what we are all working on is a build that is without the Tops. The core the deck still hasn't changed much and using alternatives to get our card selection seems to be working. Top wasn't a major factor to the deck, it was just a nice addition to the deck. The problem is really the changed meta, it has appeared to gone combo heavy as expected since there is no major control deck to keep them down.

Rock Lee, How has Warping Wail been working? I need more convincing on it. Relic of Progenitus without Trinket Mage makes me think it will not show up at the right time. Trinket Mage seems like it would work well in that specific build. The build looks like you replaced Tops with Probes. Any specific reason behind it?

**EDIT**
I've been thinking about the meta change which is heavy combo and elves at the moment (at least my area) I keep coming to the conclusion that Stifle/Trickbind should be a necessity in the main. Lets go over the specific targets that will help for this deck. Of course there is many more decks but I am trying to cover the current meta only.

Fetch lands in general a great target. choke their manabase and they will crumble.

ANT/TES - Stifle those storm triggers! Let them have their 2 goblins or 2 health from Tendrills.
Elves - Stifle out Craterhoof. This will should be a decent advantage to allow you to regulate back out. You can also hit Nettle Sentinel, that will turn off their mana acceleration.
Food Chain - Food Chain. Some decks are now running Walking Ballista as an alt wincon. Overall hit their wincon.
Reanimator - Not as strong but if they open with a fetch, you can keep them out of mana for quite some time. Griselbrand card draw. Easily side out for your Grave hate.
Delver Variants - Decent amount of targets. Shardless Cascade trigger if they are running it. Young Pyromancer, Trickbind really does well against him. Liliana sacrifice. Wasteland or fetches. If Deathrite is running Fetches aren't a great target.

[TheBoozeCube]

I finally got to play paper Legacy tonight for the first time in months. Went 3-0 with Cg, drew into a Top 4 split. My matchups were:

Round 1: D&T w/ B splash (2-0)
Round 2: Lands (2-0)
Round 3: 4c Delver (2-1)

Spatial Contortion was pretty great tonight. I couldn't decide what to cut to bring one into the main, so I just went with a 61/14 configuration. I was expecting to see red D&T and Blood Moon Stompy, and I wanted Spatial as an answer to Magus, so I swapped a basic Forest for a Wastes. Here's the list I played:

61 main / 14 sideboard

Creatures:4
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells:28
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
1 Spatial Contortion
4 Warping Wail
2 All Is Dust
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Lands:29
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
7 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Vesuva
1 Wastes

Sideboard:14
1 Silent Arbiter
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Spatial Contortion
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Krosan Grip
1 Trinisphere
1 Dark Depths

Like I said, Spatial was great. Being able to take down Sanctum Prelates and flipped Delvers was definitely worth the slot. If I wasn't worried about the increased combo presence, I'd probably swap the one in the board for the 4th Warping Wail. I'm considering cutting Silent Arbiter for a 3rd Spatial, although that does give up points against Eldrazi. Or I might cut it for another Ratchet Bomb.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MechTactical]

Here's the "Jace" list I've been tackling.

Land (25)

1x Bojuka Bog
4x Cloudpost
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
3x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
1x Vesuva

Instant (17)

4x Brainstorm
4x Crop Rotation
2x Cyclonic Rift
3x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
2x Stifle

Creature (10)

1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Primeval Titan
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2x Vendilion Clique

Sorcery (6)

4x Ponder
2x Show and Tell

Artifact (1)

1x Candelabra of Tawnos

Planeswalker (1)

1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)

1x Engineered Explosives
3x Flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
3x Krosan Grip
2x Moment's Peace
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Trickbind

Is anyone trying to build in a similar direction? Any suggestions?

[TheBoozeCube]

is the deck really better without gsz and oracle,/titans?

Cg is a totally different style of deck than the true monogreen builds you're thinking of. It's much more reactive and controlling. And the green is really just a light splash. Adding a bunch more green dilutes the power of Ancient Stirrings, which is arguably the best card in the deck and is what gives Cg much of its consistency.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[203995014]

I've been thinking about the meta change which is heavy combo and elves at the moment (at least my area) I keep coming to the conclusion that Stifle/Trickbind should be a necessity in the main. Lets go over the specific targets that will help for this deck. Of course there is many more decks but I am trying to cover the current meta only.

Fetch lands in general a great target. choke their manabase and they will crumble.

ANT/TES - Stifle those storm triggers! Let them have their 2 goblins or 2 health from Tendrills.
Elves - Stifle out Craterhoof. This will should be a decent advantage to allow you to regulate back out. You can also hit Nettle Sentinel, that will turn off their mana acceleration.
Food Chain - Food Chain. Some decks are now running Walking Ballista as an alt wincon. Overall hit their wincon.
Reanimator - Not as strong but if they open with a fetch, you can keep them out of mana for quite some time. Griselbrand card draw. Easily side out for your Grave hate.
Delver Variants - Decent amount of targets. Shardless Cascade trigger if they are running it. Young Pyromancer, Trickbind really does well against him. Liliana sacrifice. Wasteland or fetches. If Deathrite is running Fetches aren't a great target.

I can't help but think that most of the reasoning for the use of Stifle in these matchups doesn't hold much water:

ANT/TES: What kind of storm player isn't going to rip up your hand with discard before going off? This is actually an example of a matchup that is much weaker without Sensei Top because you no longer have a way to protect yourself through discard spells. Brainstorm doesn't do nearly as much justice. Stifle doesn't even work some, it is much more likely for a storm player to be able to combo through the countered storm trigger with past in flames or something.

Elves: If a craterhoof is coming in the elves player likely has enough of a board presence to kill you anyway. This is one of those matchups where getting up a Glacial Chasm is important, and no amount of craterhoof triggers matter in regards to that.

Food Chain: Trickbind or Stifle don't even work when it comes to stopping the combo. If the Food Chain player is any good at all they will activate the ballista ability all at once, so Trickbind stopping abilities doesn't even work. Even if they screw that up somehow, they can kill during your next turn. Even if you have the removal spell for the ballista before that even happens (likely artifact/enchantment removal), then what are you doing not using it on the Food Chain?

Reanimator: Trickbind is actually alright since denying 7 cards is huge and most people won't actually activate it multiple times in a row. You should be expected to have a karakas so trickbinding and tapping karakas is actually a legitimate strategy. It doesn't have as many applications as say straight up countering the spell would though.

Delver: The best argument for running stifle effects in post-sensei top ban world, but I don't think this is a matchup that really desperately needs improving. I wouldn't use any slots for this situational card anymore.

Finally, in regards to the whole stifling manabase, this is a deck that aims to get to lategame, and when other decks operate on a much lower land count, denying one land doesn't really do much justice in the long term. I really think that in the new world stifle should just be reserved for decks that can effectively make use of this most-common scenario of using it on fetchlands, that being delver since they can beat the opponents down while they're temporarily down on resources to respond.

[Zotmaster]

I can't help but think that most of the reasoning for the use of Stifle in these matchups doesn't hold much water:

I agree with some, but not all, of this. Stifle effects are definitely worse for us in the Post-Top world, and some of those uses are, as you said, impractical. You can actually stop Food Chain or Sneak Attack with Trickbind, but only if your opponent does something really stupid (like, not activate Sneak more than once or get to an upkeep step with Food Chain on the board).

The better argument against Stifle effects is that they are much, much, much stronger on the play than they are on the draw. Delver players keeping a one-land hand with a load of cantrips is not an unheard of occurrence, and stopping a fetchland goes a long way to stopping them from improving their hand and slowing you down: they need to control the tempo of the game. On the draw, this is obviously far less practical, for the same reason that leading Cloudpost on the draw is much more dangerous.

It's more likely that the card would be better suited in a much heavier - if not entirely - blue build, where having answers to more things becomes more practical.

[Neko448]

Can you believe that I tested over 10 builds with omni and Walking Ballista thinking it was an instant kill? even brought it to events and people let me do it. (small events). Go figure. I'm pretty out of the game since my LGS closed up.

Here's what I was testing non-omni related though, and it is being quite resilient:

// Lands
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [8E] Forest (2)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [UNH] Island
1 [V12] Glacial Chasm
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [EXP] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [GPX] Primeval Titan

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [CN2] Show and Tell
3 [MD1] Relic of Progenitus
3 [OGW] Warping Wail
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [UGF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [EMA] Nature's Claim
SB: 3 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 3 [JGC] Flusterstorm



Aaah, this looks much better. Sorry to burst your bubble there!

Personally, I've really struggled to pick up this deck again since Top got banned. It seemed so critical in the U/G lists. Have you felt your post-top post lists match up to the pre-top ones at all?

[Skriger]

I can't help but think that most of the reasoning for the use of Stifle in these matchups doesn't hold much water:

I am pointing out how it should be thought about as a mainboard card instead of a sideboard to help even out the current meta. I understand Siftle/Trickbind against certain decks isn't great. I am trying to reinforce that if you do get matched up, what's going to be the best pieces to hit to ensure your win.

The whole point of that post was to show the "what if" scenarios, game 1, if you had stifle/trickbind in your main 60 and you didnt know what deck you were going against. Post sideboard you can adjust and remove them as needed.

No matter what Combo decks are a bad matchup if it's a competent player. Stifle/Trickbind just add more ammo into your deck to combat them and get you to your next turn. Like you stated, we are late game winners.


ANT/TES: What kind of storm player isn't going to rip up your hand with discard before going off? This is actually an example of a matchup that is much weaker without Sensei Top because you no longer have a way to protect yourself through discard spells. Brainstorm doesn't do nearly as much justice. Stifle doesn't even work some, it is much more likely for a storm player to be able to combo through the countered storm trigger with past in flames or something.

Very true, If a storm player is knowledgeable of their deck, you will get torn apart by duress and cabal therapy. As I stated, If you had a Stifle/Trickbind in hand, the storm triggers are your best targets. This is one of the few situations in which Warping Wail will shine. You lock out cabal therapy and they then have to choose to go blind into their combo. ANT/TES is one of the worst matchups for 12-post. Post sideboard gives you a little bit more meat to handle them but still not that great.


Elves: If a craterhoof is coming in the elves player likely has enough of a board presence to kill you anyway. This is one of those matchups where getting up a Glacial Chasm is important, and no amount of craterhoof triggers matter in regards to that.
You are correct, Crop rotation into a Chasm is ideal. That's not the point. The concept is having stifle/trickbind in hand game one what is the best targets. having more than just one answer to deal with a situation give you better probabilities of winning, you can't argue that.


Food Chain: Trickbind or Stifle don't even work when it comes to stopping the combo. If the Food Chain player is any good at all they will activate the ballista ability all at once, so Trickbind stopping abilities doesn't even work. Even if they screw that up somehow, they can kill during your next turn. Even if you have the removal spell for the ballista before that even happens (likely artifact/enchantment removal), then what are you doing not using it on the Food Chain?

Your thinking out of context of game 1. Majority of 12post lists removal is Ulamog or a board wipe which handles both ballista and food chain. Trickbind is the only decent answer in this matchup. Being able to turn off Food chain one turn so you can try removing it on your turn is very crucial. Wouldn't you agree that you rather have more answers towards combo


Reanimator: Trickbind is actually alright since denying 7 cards is huge and most people won't actually activate it multiple times in a row. You should be expected to have a karakas so trickbinding and tapping karakas is actually a legitimate strategy. It doesn't have as many applications as say straight up countering the spell would though.
Trickbind really ruins Griselbrands day. Slows them down just a bit. Especially if they sneak attack him out. Case in point here again. Ideally you've kept a hand with a crop rotation for these situations. But only have essentially 4 cards to answer this deck is terrible. I peronsally don't keep a hand with either a bojuka bog or karakas unless the other 6 are wonderful.


Delver: The best argument for running stifle effects in post-sensei top ban world, but I don't think this is a matchup that really desperately needs improving. I wouldn't use any slots for this situational card anymore. Same concept here again. Unknown opponent, and a stifle/trickbind in hand, these are your best targets.


Finally, in regards to the whole stifling manabase, this is a deck that aims to get to lategame, and when other decks operate on a much lower land count, denying one land doesn't really do much justice in the long term. I really think that in the new world stifle should just be reserved for decks that can effectively make use of this most-common scenario of using it on fetchlands, that being delver since they can beat the opponents down while they're temporarily down on resources to respond.

Personally, I think Delver variants are the most strongest decks as of now. I agree, they are the best shell for these types of cards. Yet, I have used stifle on a fetch land against a goblin deck during their turn 1. locked them out of their mana to drop Aether vial. Then dropped a pithing needle to lock their vial down completely. Essentially a win until they get another land up. At this point I am not as worried about wasteland since they are now desperately in need of mana. Any deck running =<20 lands will not like getting stifled. Their probability of lands coming up is slim. I feel that reinforces your comment that 12 post is a late game deck. I feel it merits testing in our builds if you are using Blue. Most of you have dropped blue and gone G/W or mono Green and worked on the ramp combo side of the deck. I'm strictly speaking on the G/u builds that are sticking to the control method. Board-state control to delay for our late game win.

[snoop_x]

I've been running a very similar list to theBoozeCube's C/g list for over a year now. I never missed the Tops when I switched over from playing the u/g builds. And yes, I play 61 main deck cards with a full 15 in the side cause I'm bad at magic. I never got to play against a lot of miracles when it was running around. But all other matchups weren't that bad, except for blood moon decks. I hate blood moon, but only when I'm playing this deck.

61 main / 15 sideboard


1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn


4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Song of the Dryads
4 Crop Rotation
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Warping Wail
2 All Is Dust
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon


7 Forest
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage


Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Krosan Grip
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Silent Arbiter

[snoop_x]

I've been running a very similar list to theBoozeCube's C/g list for over a year now. I never missed the Tops when I switched over from playing the u/g builds. And yes, I play 61 main deck cards with a full 15 in the side cause I'm bad at magic. I never got to play against a lot of miracles when it was running around. But all other matchups weren't that bad, except for blood moon decks. I hate blood moon, but only when I'm playing this deck.

61 main / 15 sideboard


1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn


4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Song of the Dryads
4 Crop Rotation
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Warping Wail
2 All Is Dust
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon


7 Forest
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage


Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Krosan Grip
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Silent Arbiter

[TheBoozeCube]

I've been running a very similar list to theBoozeCube's C/g list for over a year now. I never missed the Tops when I switched over from playing the u/g builds. And yes, I play 61 main deck cards with a full 15 in the side cause I'm bad at magic. I never got to play against a lot of miracles when it was running around. But all other matchups weren't that bad, except for blood moon decks. I hate blood moon, but only when I'm playing this deck.

61 main / 15 sideboard


1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn


4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Song of the Dryads
4 Crop Rotation
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Warping Wail
2 All Is Dust
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon


7 Forest
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage


Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Krosan Grip
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Silent Arbiter

1. Why Great Distortion over Butcher of Truth?
2. How has Song of the Dryads been for you?


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[203995014]

I agree with some, but not all, of this. Stifle effects are definitely worse for us in the Post-Top world, and some of those uses are, as you said, impractical. You can actually stop Food Chain or Sneak Attack with Trickbind, but only if your opponent does something really stupid (like, not activate Sneak more than once or get to an upkeep step with Food Chain on the board).

The better argument against Stifle effects is that they are much, much, much stronger on the play than they are on the draw. Delver players keeping a one-land hand with a load of cantrips is not an unheard of occurrence, and stopping a fetchland goes a long way to stopping them from improving their hand and slowing you down: they need to control the tempo of the game. On the draw, this is obviously far less practical, for the same reason that leading Cloudpost on the draw is much more dangerous.

It's more likely that the card would be better suited in a much heavier - if not entirely - blue build, where having answers to more things becomes more practical.

I mostly agree with this, I think the disparity in power between going first and going second is too great for Stifle and I always considered trickbind to be the better of the two in this deck. I do want to point out that Trickbind doesn't actually work on Food Chain since Food Chain doesn't actually target, therefore not giving you the ability to respond to it.


I am pointing out how it should be thought about as a mainboard card instead of a sideboard to help even out the current meta. I understand Siftle/Trickbind against certain decks isn't great. I am trying to reinforce that if you do get matched up, what's going to be the best pieces to hit to ensure your win.

The whole point of that post was to show the "what if" scenarios, game 1, if you had stifle/trickbind in your main 60 and you didnt know what deck you were going against. Post sideboard you can adjust and remove them as needed.

No matter what Combo decks are a bad matchup if it's a competent player. Stifle/Trickbind just add more ammo into your deck to combat them and get you to your next turn. Like you stated, we are late game winners.

Very true, If a storm player is knowledgeable of their deck, you will get torn apart by duress and cabal therapy. As I stated, If you had a Stifle/Trickbind in hand, the storm triggers are your best targets. This is one of the few situations in which Warping Wail will shine. You lock out cabal therapy and they then have to choose to go blind into their combo. ANT/TES is one of the worst matchups for 12-post. Post sideboard gives you a little bit more meat to handle them but still not that great.


You are correct, Crop rotation into a Chasm is ideal. That's not the point. The concept is having stifle/trickbind in hand game one what is the best targets. having more than just one answer to deal with a situation give you better probabilities of winning, you can't argue that.



Your thinking out of context of game 1. Majority of 12post lists removal is Ulamog or a board wipe which handles both ballista and food chain. Trickbind is the only decent answer in this matchup. Being able to turn off Food chain one turn so you can try removing it on your turn is very crucial. Wouldn't you agree that you rather have more answers towards combo


Trickbind really ruins Griselbrands day. Slows them down just a bit. Especially if they sneak attack him out. Case in point here again. Ideally you've kept a hand with a crop rotation for these situations. But only have essentially 4 cards to answer this deck is terrible. I peronsally don't keep a hand with either a bojuka bog or karakas unless the other 6 are wonderful.

Same concept here again. Unknown opponent, and a stifle/trickbind in hand, these are your best targets.

Personally, I think Delver variants are the most strongest decks as of now. I agree, they are the best shell for these types of cards. Yet, I have used stifle on a fetch land against a goblin deck during their turn 1. locked them out of their mana to drop Aether vial. Then dropped a pithing needle to lock their vial down completely. Essentially a win until they get another land up. At this point I am not as worried about wasteland since they are now desperately in need of mana. Any deck running =<20 lands will not like getting stifled. Their probability of lands coming up is slim. I feel that reinforces your comment that 12 post is a late game deck. I feel it merits testing in our builds if you are using Blue. Most of you have dropped blue and gone G/W or mono Green and worked on the ramp combo side of the deck. I'm strictly speaking on the G/u builds that are sticking to the control method. Board-state control to delay for our late game win.

I didn't say Stifle effects were bad, in fact I ran 3 copies of Trickbind in my build before top ban. My main problem is that I think some of the reasons you cited specifically are bad examples: Some don't even work practically speaking, and some are so corner case that they would not do nearly as much justice. I also find it incredibly unsettling that you believe in Trickbind effects while you're somehow still skeptical of Warping Wail, which is also "situational" but much less so than Trickbind effects were, almost to the point where it's not even truly situational.

I am fairly sure storm players wouldn't go in blind anymore because there isn't an effective lock coming anytime soon like there used to be (that being Sensei Top floating). They have the ability to go on a little longer, and they will. I thought the matchup was actually interesting and slowly getting closer and closer to even before top ban, but now that top is banned I think the matchup is bad again.

Fetching a Chasm isn't even ideal, 99% of the time it is REQUIRED to win the game vs elves. The scenario you described is so niche that it's not even worth using as an argument.

What I said regarding stifle effects vs Food Chain aren't just applicable to post-board games, considering I even stated that the card isn't even good post-board. I'm saying Trickbind doesn't freaking work when it comes to interacting with the combo, and I described why that is the case.

Regarding Reanimator, if you're only using it to deny a single draw 7 and not combining it with Karakas, then trickbind/stifle essentially says "Target Player loses 7 life", since they have every right to activate it again if it's stifle, or to activate it during the following turn if it's trickbind. Not only do you not have the ability to punish them for paying 14 life, but they also draw more gas to reload with more reanimation spells and they still have a 7/7 flying lifelink on the field. You basically have to at the very least expedition map or crop rotation into a Karakas because of this, even without a trickbind effect. You also mentioned earlier that you aren't convinced about warping wail, which would definitely count as more mainboard interaction, and I would even argue much better interaction.

Finally, your last statement seems to be using a cherry-picked example where everything worked out perfectly, that scenario simply isn't realistic in the vast majority of games, and the scenario you described isn't even close to a win, you even said yourself it's until they draw another land, which is really likely considering how many turns this deck takes and having 3rd land and/or some other way to cheat mana isn't even rare. Because I almost never felt compelled to stifle a fetchland, I opted for 3 trickbinds back when I ran them mainboard. Nowadays however, the most popular decks people are playing right now is great for Warping Wail, so I will probably be using that as the "versatile card of choice" over Trickbind.

[snoop_x]

@theboozecube:

1. I find myself running low on cards most of the time, and when I fetch and use him, I usually refill my whole hand. And if you can land him against certain combo deck, they just scoop. Yes, I have dropped him against storm before and it was awesome. The menace does matter sometimes.

2. Song of the dryad has been a really good catch all. I use it on troubling permanents such as blood moon. I have copied opponents Jace before also. Pretty awesome to see your opponent wonder how songs work and abuse it with vesuva.

[MechTactical]

Guys you are forgetting that Stifle/Trickbind are generally worse in the post top era because there are no miracle triggers. Nevertheless, i play them in the more U oriented lists. They're just so fun to play... I'll probably go test my dreadnought build now :wink:

[Roweboater]

I strongly suggest running Song of the Dryads in green builds. I can't count the number of times it's saved my ass. Running 1-2 mainboard is what I've found to be the right number when you have Cantrips. It's generally a terrible idea to give an opponent extra mana but when you're in a pinch it's more beneficial for you than your opponent. We also get so far ahead on mana that it rarely makes a large impact. And some decks (burn) do not benefit much from a basic forest.

[prdgchild]

I strongly suggest running Song of the Dryads in green builds. I can't count the number of times it's saved my ass. Running 1-2 mainboard is what I've found to be the right number when you have Cantrips. It's generally a terrible idea to give an opponent extra mana but when you're in a pinch it's more beneficial for you than your opponent. We also get so far ahead on mana that it rarely makes a large impact. And some decks (burn) do not benefit much from a basic forest.

can you song an opponents permanent, say a planeswalker, then drop vesuva or stage and copy that target and now have that planeswalker? cant imagine this working this way but does it?

[Roweboater]

I personally haven't tried this yet. I do think it works like that though. Your Song enchants their permanent and when you play your Vesuva you can use it as a target. Once it is in play though it doesn't have its own Song enchanting it and therefore is just the permanent you targeted.

[Zotmaster]

can you song an opponents permanent, say a planeswalker, then drop vesuva or stage and copy that target and now have that planeswalker? cant imagine this working this way but does it?

It does, in fact, work that way. I've copied Liliana of the Veil with it and it was absolutely fantastic. Vesuva only cares about the fact that the card it's copying is a land, but the copyable values of a card do not include any auras or counters on it.

More reading here: http://mtg.gamepedia.com/Copying_objects

[TheBoozeCube]

It does, in fact, work that way. I've copied Liliana of the Veil with it and it was absolutely fantastic. Vesuva only cares about the fact that the card it's copying is a land, but the copyable values of a card do not include any auras or counters on it.

More reading here: http://mtg.gamepedia.com/Copying_objects

This seems just plain awesome. If Song was colorless, it'd be perfect. But this interaction seems cool enough that I will have to try it anyway.


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[TheBoozeCube]

Crazy thought:

Between the filtering from Cascading Cataracts and S&T, would it be reasonable to run Griselbrand in UG?


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[prdgchild]

Crazy thought:

Between the filtering from Cascading Cataracts and S&T, would it be reasonable to run Griselbrand in UG?


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with force of will main maybe. how many copies? cant tutor for him so idk m8

[Skriger]

Crazy thought:

Between the filtering from Cascading Cataracts and S&T, would it be reasonable to run Griselbrand in UG?


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Perhaps a Sultai brew that way you can utilize Leovold which sounds pretty strong. Then you don't have to rely on Cascading Cataracts to cast him outside of Show and Tell. Also opens up to run Toxic Deluge and Abrupt Decay and Deathrite if you feel fancy.

**EDIT** You could also just run either Kozilek if you are looking for card advantage and easier to cast w/o black.



I strongly suggest running Song of the Dryads in green builds. I can't count the number of times it's saved my ass. Running 1-2 mainboard is what I've found to be the right number when you have Cantrips. It's generally a terrible idea to give an opponent extra mana but when you're in a pinch it's more beneficial for you than your opponent. We also get so far ahead on mana that it rarely makes a large impact. And some decks (burn) do not benefit much from a basic forest.

I second this. Song of the Dryads if a very useful card for locking out planeswalkers. I've ran 2 in my Bant build to handle non creature targets that Terminus couldn't handle. Probably my favorite target is liliana. I've also used it to shut down vials, chalice, and batterskull. Batterskull is fun for the fact you can tap itself to equip. Just keep in mind though that Your copied vesuva is still a wasteland target. Pretty big bummer to lose your copied Liliana to a wasteland.

[snoop_x]

I know vesuva becomes the exact card that is enchanted with Song of the Dryads, but because the new copy of vesuva is not enchanted by song of the dryad, it won't gain the land sub-type? I believe that it just copies and doesn't retain the land portion, so it cannot be wastelanded

[203995014]

@Rock Lee any new builds that you have been testing at the moment? What are some of your post-ban UG lists looking like? How do we play against combo decks without Sensei Top?

[Skriger]

I know vesuva becomes the exact card that is enchanted with Song of the Dryads, but because the new copy of vesuva is not enchanted by song of the dryad, it won't gain the land sub-type? I believe that it just copies and doesn't retain the land portion, so it cannot be wastelanded

You're right. I just checked with judges corner to verify. It loses its land supertype since it completely copies the targeted card. I've been screwed then in the past. Noted!

[tescrin]

EDIT: He was correct so continue on!



It does, in fact, work that way. I've copied Liliana of the Veil with it and it was absolutely fantastic. Vesuva only cares about the fact that the card it's copying is a land, but the copyable values of a card do not include any auras or counters on it.

More reading here: http://mtg.gamepedia.com/Copying_objects
I don't think it works the way you think it does. You will copy a card akin to the following:

Liliana of the Veil 1BB
Forest Land
Devoid

This card has no abilities other than {t}: Add {G}. It's a colorless Forest. You copy the thing that it is, not the thing that it was. For instance, if you somehow lose a True-Name Nemesis but keep a Phantasmal Image that was a copy of TNN, if you then drop a second Phantasmal Image and copy the first one, it will be a True-Name Nemesis with 3 CMC, and not the text on the card.


Off topic, interestingly enough, I believe it will actually get a second instance of the sacrifice clause due to that being on the first Image a la:

True-Name Nemesis 1UU
Merfolk
[protection stuff]
[sacrifice if targeted clause]
[sacrifice if targeted clause a second time]


I'm happy to be wrong, but there's a couple other things that seemed goofy about this line of thinking if I was/am wrong:
* A thespian stage that successfully copied a Liliana of the Veil and gained it's types/text; would be a planeswalker with no loyalty counters, and thus would be "put into the graveyard" on resolution.
* A Vesuva would indeed enter the battlefield with 3 loyalty counters (again, if my belief about being a forest was wrong.) This is because vesuva would be a complete copy of Liliana when it enters, and thus would have a [3] in an the loyalty box.

Again, happy to be wrong on these things, but I was a L1 Judge for a year (or however long it lasts) so I don't think I'm that rusty

[RStien321]

I don't think it works the way you think it does. You will copy a card akin to the following:

Liliana of the Veil 1BB
Forest Land
Devoid

This card has no abilities other than {t}: Add {G}. It's a colorless Forest. You copy the thing that it is, not the thing that it was.


In this case, if you copy a Liliana of the Veil, enchanted with Song of the Dryads, with a Vesuva, Vesusva will become a copy of the Planeswalker Liliana of the Veil with 3 loyalty counters on it. Lets go over why (highlighting relevant sections):

Rule 706.2 - "....The "copiable values" are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by its face-down status, and by "as enters the battlefield" and "as... is turned face up" abilities that set power and toughness (and may also set additional characteristics). Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied"

Good rule of thumb - copiable values are those that are printed on the physical card itself. Copies ignore type changing effects like those from Song of the Dryad (exception is the TNN example you gave, that I will address below).


there's a couple other things that seemed goofy about this line of thinking if I was/am wrong:
* A thespian stage that successfully copied a Liliana of the Veil and gained it's types/text; would be a planeswalker with no loyalty counters, and thus would be "put into the graveyard" on resolution.
* A Vesuva would indeed enter the battlefield with 3 loyalty counters (again, if my belief about being a forest was wrong.) This is because vesuva would be a complete copy of Liliana when it enters, and thus would have a [3] in an the loyalty box.

You are correct with the analysis here. 306.5b - "A planeswalker is treated as if its text box included, "This permanent enters the battlefield with a number of loyalty counters on it equal to its printed loyalty number." This ability creates a replacement effect." Therefore, Vesusva enters the battlefield as a Planeswalker and leverages this replacement effect. A Thespian Stage would not leverage this replacement effect and would go to the graveyard as a SBA.


For instance, if you somehow lose a True-Name Nemesis but keep a Phantasmal Image that was a copy of TNN, if you then drop a second Phantasmal Image and copy the first one, it will be a True-Name Nemesis with 3 CMC, and not the text on the card.

Again correct, but this happens for a different reason than the Liliana interaction above. There is a section in that rules section quoted that is relevant: "as modified by other copy effects," So the copiable values of the Phantasmal Image that copied TNN would be those of TNN with the sacrifice clause. You correctly identify that the second Phantasmal Image copy would infact have two sacrifice clauses.

[tescrin]

Yeah, you're right. I had a total brainfart because of the "It's a land" bit. Obviously when you copy a creature with Moldervine Cloak attached you don't get the +3/+3. For some reason turning it into a land caused a ruckus in muh brain parts.

[Rock Lee]

Have been tinkering with a blend of my previous mono green builds and Snoop's C/g build resulting in this strong build. Still could use some tuning, but I am finding it very resilient:

// Lands
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
4 [TSP] Vesuva
7 [TSP] Forest (4)
2 [EMA] Maze of Ith
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [OGW] Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 [NPH] Spellskite

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 [ROE] Ancient Stirrings
4 [MM2] Expedition Map
4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [OGW] Warping Wail
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
2 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 [ORI] Orbs of Warding
SB: 2 [WWK] Nature's Claim

[caprino]

Have been tinkering with a blend of my previous mono green builds and Snoop's C/g build resulting in this strong build. Still could use some tuning, but I am finding it very resilient:

// Lands
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
4 [TSP] Vesuva
7 [TSP] Forest (4)
2 [EMA] Maze of Ith
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [OGW] Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 [NPH] Spellskite

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 [ROE] Ancient Stirrings
4 [MM2] Expedition Map
4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [OGW] Warping Wail
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
2 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 [ORI] Orbs of Warding
SB: 2 [WWK] Nature's Claim


Nice list.
Vs combo is hard realy?

Matchup Vs delver deck what do you think?

Thanks

[TheBoozeCube]

Have been tinkering with a blend of my previous mono green builds and Snoop's C/g build resulting in this strong build. Still could use some tuning, but I am finding it very resilient:

// Lands
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
4 [TSP] Vesuva
7 [TSP] Forest (4)
2 [EMA] Maze of Ith
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [OGW] Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 [NPH] Spellskite

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 [ROE] Ancient Stirrings
4 [MM2] Expedition Map
4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [OGW] Warping Wail
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
2 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 [ORI] Orbs of Warding
SB: 2 [WWK] Nature's Claim


I don't understand the maindeck Bridges. Once they're down, Ulamog and Ugin appear to be your only ways to win. Is there something I'm missing here?


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[Zotmaster]

I don't understand the maindeck Bridges. Once they're down, Ulamog and Ugin appear to be your only ways to win. Is there something I'm missing here?


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The point of the bridges is that it creates a much easier to manage board state. Since most of the time we don't really have to worry about attacking our opponent until we're ready to kill them, Bridge buys you the turns to set up. It's much easier to set up a road block that you can remove if and when you choose than it is to try to get around whatever your opponent is doing.

[nimkee]

The point of the bridges is that it creates a much easier to manage board state. Since most of the time we don't really have to worry about attacking our opponent until we're ready to kill them, Bridge buys you the turns to set up. It's much easier to set up a road block that you can remove if and when you choose than it is to try to get around whatever your opponent is doing.

If you ever stream post again let us know, it would be great to watch some people with experience playing the deck. Same goes for any other people too. I think I've watched every youtube video about twice now.

The bridges seem real strange to me too but if you've had success with it, it seems worth a try. Can't hate if it works, right?

I just put titan-post together not too long ago. I'm trying to get 15 or 20 matches in with the different color variant before trying a titanless build. I only have a single Candelabra at the moment, plus titans just feel so powerful. I played Big Eldrazi while picking up some other cards, but I'm excited to have access to crop rotation after getting waste-loam locked or even kotr--> repeated wastes. My meta is a strange little slice of hell for a cloudpost player. I've went 8-5 the last 3 weeks (1-2 my first tournament).

What have your guys' results been like? Have any of the different variants placed since the top ban? I've only seen some of the Big Eldrazi decks do alright.

[hymnyou]

I played bridges in my main in UG when eldrazi stompy first became popular and bridges were great, just fell short of top8 in a classic (pre-top ban). I prefer two ulamogs though when running bridge main, one real removal spell is sketch. Ugin and Land tutors with eye makes it pretty legit, but not so sure without top in UG. Stirrings with CG makes it appealing to me but brainstorm was nice to filter them when needed, 2 ulamog would be the route I'd take especially with the amount of targeted discard right now.

[TheBoozeCube]

I played bridges in my main in UG when eldrazi stompy first became popular and bridges were great, just fell short of top8 in a classic (pre-top ban). I prefer two ulamogs though when running bridge main, one real removal spell is sketch. Ugin and Land tutors with eye makes it pretty legit, but not so sure without top in UG. Stirrings with CG makes it appealing to me but brainstorm was nice to filter them when needed, 2 ulamog would be the route I'd take especially with the amount of targeted discard right now.

Yeah. I get Bridge in UG, since you have Repeal. I'd just be nervous about locking myself out of the game with so few ways around it main in Cg.


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[203995014]

Yeah. I get Bridge in UG, since you have Repeal. I'd just be nervous about locking myself out of the game with so few ways around it main in Cg.


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I don't think you're using your imagination enough. In most games where Ensnaring Bridge is putting the game in a standstill, the 12-post player will eventually assemble the infinite turns combo with Karakas and Emrakul. That should let you do just about anything. Say even if your ugins and ulamogs were in your graveyard, you can utilize candelabras to take multiple extra turns in a row, discard emrakul to max hand size, and get back the means to actually win through the bridge. It doesn't seem like there are too few ways to win through bridge at all.

[Zotmaster]

If you ever stream post again let us know, it would be great to watch some people with experience playing the deck. Same goes for any other people too. I think I've watched every youtube video about twice now.

I absolutely will. I'd love to stream more Post - and really, other games - but right now my work/adulting schedule doesn't allow me to do it with any degree of reliability, and I don't want to give people a schedule I already know I can't meet. Now that I bought into MTGO, I definitely will be streaming at some point.


Yeah. I get Bridge in UG, since you have Repeal. I'd just be nervous about locking myself out of the game with so few ways around it main in Cg.

I think if you give it some play you'll become more and more comfortable with it. The only time Post ever would win with chip damage is if Ugin goes all the way, and if that's happening, there's no reason to complain. Because of that, having few ways to remove it really isn't important: if you and your opponent are just playing Draw-Go, that favors you 100% of the time. At some point, you'll be on Ulamog mana if it comes to that, and then the rest of the game becomes relatively trivial. Bridge shores up a lot of matchups - with Infect being an unfortunate exception - and it's something I got comfortable playing around extremely quickly.

Another consideration is that Karn Liberated plays incredibly well with Bridge. Besides also being able to win a game by himself, he handles the stuff that Ugin can't, including your Bridge if it comes to that.

As is the case with all of our brews, I can't say for 100% certainty whether or not Bridge is "optimal", but what I can tell you is that I'm perfectly comfortable with playing it in my own deck and actually love seeing my opponents sideboard it in against me.

[nimkee]

I absolutely will. I'd love to stream more Post - and really, other games - but right now my

As is the case with all of our brews, I can't say for 100% certainty whether or not Bridge is "optimal", but what I can tell you is that I'm perfectly comfortable with playing it in my own deck and actually love seeing my opponents sideboard it in against me.

That's funny stuff. Someone did that to me but sat behind a Chandra which went ultimate too quick for me to interact with.
Other than walkers that makes perfect sense tho. How do you deal with walkers that have you on a clock / Jace / Chandra / Lilli? You're on C/g right?

[Bobmans]

Beast Within can deal with walker, offcourse Ugin, Karn, All is Dust can to.

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[Zotmaster]

That's funny stuff. Someone did that to me but sat behind a Chandra which went ultimate too quick for me to interact with.
Other than walkers that makes perfect sense tho. How do you deal with walkers that have you on a clock / Jace / Chandra / Lilli? You're on C/g right?

I mostly play C/g but I've brewed all sorts of silly crap in a variety of colors. I usually try to proactively stop dangerous walkers with a Needle effect if at all possible, although this is riskier with Liliana because of Abrupt Decay. Otherwise it's dig to Ugin/Dust/Karn/Ratchet/whatever or tutor for Ulamog to guarantee the walker goes away. Of the two, Jace is considerably less threatening because his ult takes longer and it requires your opponent to more or less be "all in" on that strategy, since they forego free Brainstorms every turn.

[nimkee]

I mostly play C/g but I've brewed all sorts of silly crap in a variety of colors. I usually try to proactively stop dangerous walkers with a Needle effect if at all possible, although this is riskier with Liliana because of Abrupt Decay. Otherwise it's dig to Ugin/Dust/Karn/Ratchet/whatever or tutor for Ulamog to guarantee the walker goes away. Of the two, Jace is considerably less threatening because his ult takes longer and it requires your opponent to more or less be "all in" on that strategy, since they forego free Brainstorms every turn.

I tried a few matches with mono-green (savannah splash for sideboard cards) titan post, and with C/g. While I never got to attack with a titan once (encountered every answer imaginable), the resolved lands did almost always win me the game.

I was very surprised with C/g. Shocked might be the better word. I was often able to skip over titans and just ramp into big fatties.

T1 forest into needle on wasteland.
T2 Cloudpost
T3 Cloudpost, warping wail into scion eot, crop rotate into a post / or just T3 a wurmcoil engine post board.
T4 Ugin or other options

It felt quite powerful, and it seemed like the titans were maps and stirrings on big 6/6 sticks. Have you missed not having access to white for sideboard cards?

One game with the titan build I got completely tempo'd out by grixis delver. Rug delver seems like it could be pretty brutal too.

I threw my one of Eureka in for giggles. Its ok in a Titan build, but landing it was hard. It sort of felt like counter bait in the same way candlesticks might. Has anyone else tried it?

[Prdgychild]

I tried a few matches with mono-green (savannah splash for sideboard cards) titan post, and with C/g. While I never got to attack with a titan once (encountered every answer imaginable), the resolved lands did almost always win me the game.

I was very surprised with C/g. Shocked might be the better word. I was often able to skip over titans and just ramp into big fatties.

T1 forest into needle on wasteland.
T2 Cloudpost
T3 Cloudpost, warping wail into scion eot, crop rotate into a post / or just T3 a wurmcoil engine post board.
T4 Ugin or other options

It felt quite powerful, and it seemed like the titans were maps and stirrings on big 6/6 sticks. Have you missed not having access to white for sideboard cards?

One game with the titan build I got completely tempo'd out by grixis delver. Rug delver seems like it could be pretty brutal too.

I threw my one of Eureka in for giggles. Its ok in a Titan build, but landing it was hard. It sort of felt like counter bait in the same way candlesticks might. Has anyone else tried it?

Not eureka but NO with fetchlands and dryad arbors. with cards like that the deck is trying to be to many things at one time. the c/g build is already a whole lot of things lolz. it was fun but thats about as far as it went, fun

[StateFarmEmployee]

Anyone else have any interest in a custom shirt for 12 Post? There's a guy who makes designs for a lot of archetypes and he said if he got a few more people messaging him with interest that he might make up a design for it. He's Epic Upgrades on facebook where you can also see some of his other cool designs. Just thought it might be cool to get a shirt to represent the deck. If anyone is interested shoot him a message on facebook asking about a shirt for 12 Post.

[Zotmaster]

I threw my one of Eureka in for giggles. Its ok in a Titan build, but landing it was hard. It sort of felt like counter bait in the same way candlesticks might. Has anyone else tried it?

I have, although not in paper. Between Eureka, Selvala's Stampede, and now Cascading Cataracts, I've also been tinkering with seeing if I can cast things in other colors: Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker is one such card that interests me. The biggest problem I've had so far is trying to put together hands that don't suck: Ancient Stirrings only finds colorless cards, and the rest of the options available aren't exactly inspiring either. I think Rock Lee had a Eureka list somewhere, though.

[TheBoozeCube]

I don't think you're using your imagination enough. In most games where Ensnaring Bridge is putting the game in a standstill, the 12-post player will eventually assemble the infinite turns combo with Karakas and Emrakul. That should let you do just about anything. Say even if your ugins and ulamogs were in your graveyard, you can utilize candelabras to take multiple extra turns in a row, discard emrakul to max hand size, and get back the means to actually win through the bridge. It doesn't seem like there are too few ways to win through bridge at all.

LOL. When you put it that way, I suppose I have occasionally had hands where I could even attack with Emrakul through a Bridge. Drawing to well over 7 cards is one of the main reasons I play Butcher of Truth over Great Distortion. Kozilek + Karakas + Candles is a real thing.


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[TheBoozeCube]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170527/d978d6a7566635cae713e694a53d9bd0.jpg

A friend of mine (and excellent artist) created what is basically the ultimate 12 Post playmat. Check it out:
https://www.inkedgaming.com/collections/art/products/stained-glass-titans


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[Zotmaster]

A friend of mine (and excellent artist) created what is basically the ultimate 12 Post playmat. Check it out:
https://www.inkedgaming.com/collections/art/products/stained-glass-titans

Welp. Now I have a new playmat coming.

And yeah. Try Bridge. I think you might learn to like it :)

[nimkee]

12 post streaming:

https://www.twitch.tv/generalgamesaus

It was brutal. I don't really like that 12 post list but regardless, grixis delver brutalized him. Timely topdecks helped.

I have a screenshot of the list, but can't seem to upload the pic. This guy is running inifinite gyre (why??), both emrakul, and 2 ugin 2 primeval titan and 4 dryad arbor. 3 explore, 4 maps / crop rotations. 2 sylvan crying, a full 12 posts plus 10 forests. It is like a bastardized version of titan-post and C/g. It didn't do well.

[mykatdied]

12 post streaming:

https://www.twitch.tv/generalgamesaus

It was brutal. I don't really like that 12 post list but regardless, grixis delver brutalized him. Timely topdecks helped.

I have a screenshot of the list, but can't seem to upload the pic. This guy is running inifinite gyre (why??), both emrakul, and 2 ugin 2 primeval titan and 4 dryad arbor. 3 explore, 4 maps / crop rotations. 2 sylvan crying, a full 12 posts plus 10 forests. It is like a bastardized version of titan-post and C/g. It didn't do well.

4 Dryad arbor? Heavy into Natural order or just a poor deck design?

[mykatdied]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170527/d978d6a7566635cae713e694a53d9bd0.jpg

A friend of mine (and excellent artist) created what is basically the ultimate 12 Post playmat. Check it out:
https://www.inkedgaming.com/collections/art/products/stained-glass-titans


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Also that is the most beautiful thing ever. Should have a small space on it where you can place a polaroid picture of your opponent's face when you begin to cast Eldrazi Titans for the extra rub ins

[nimkee]

4 Dryad arbor? Heavy into Natural order or just a poor deck design?
Ill have to check when I get home but I dont remember seeing any NO.

I did some game 1 reps against reanimator with a C/g titan post hybrid. I did well game 1 but after he figured out what I was playing he slaughtered me with tidespout over and over again.

Tips on the matchup?

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[mykatdied]

Ill have to check when I get home but I dont remember seeing any NO.

I did some game 1 reps against reanimator with a C/g titan post hybrid. I did well game 1 but after he figured out what I was playing he slaughtered me with tidespout over and over again.

Tips on the matchup?

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4 dryad with no natural order seems way off, so hopefully.

Tidespout tyrant is a nightmare for pretty much every deck. It can't be hit by karakas and if it gets into play you're never ramping past a couple mana most likely. Your best bet to beat it is to never let it get into play.

[nimkee]

4 dryad with no natural order seems way off, so hopefully.

Tidespout tyrant is a nightmare for pretty much every deck. It can't be hit by karakas and if it gets into play you're never ramping past a couple mana most likely. Your best bet to beat it is to never let it get into play.
Is this one of the reasons people side swords?

What other sideboard schenanigans are helpful? I packed 3 macabre and a tormods today. He did have the nuts tho, force for crop rotation every time. When he didnt he baited me with griselbrand so I bogged but he drew 14 and kept what he needed.

Is macabre our best weapon?

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[TheBoozeCube]

Ill have to check when I get home but I dont remember seeing any NO.

I did some game 1 reps against reanimator with a C/g titan post hybrid. I did well game 1 but after he figured out what I was playing he slaughtered me with tidespout over and over again.

Tips on the matchup?

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Don't keep a hand without Crop Rotation, Warping Wail, or Surgical.

Seriously, Tyrant is the only card in the matchup that really matters.


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[nimkee]

Don't keep a hand without Crop Rotation, Warping Wail, or Surgical.

Seriously, Tyrant is the only card in the matchup that really matters.


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I can see the appeal if running 4 wails and 4 rotations.

My current hybrid list has 2 wails 3 rotations 3 stirrings and 2 maps. 1 more wail is in the board.

Is surgical over macabre used bc of wasteland (and loam)?

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[Zotmaster]

Is surgical over macabre used bc of wasteland (and loam)?

Somewhat. The key difference between the two is that Macabre is (virtually) uncounterable. This is part of why UB Reanimator is far more dangerous for us than BR Reanimator: I've never lost a game to a Turn 1 Sire of Insanity, and I've even beaten Turn 1 Sire and Griselbrand, because against the latter you can pretty much guarantee that your shit will resolve. However, a Turn 1 Tidespout with countermagic to back it up? You probably just lose on the spot if you aren't running Macabre and they're on the play. Surgical is much more powerful against decks that rely on an engine - Lands and Dredge being two examples - because you can strip out an entire part of that engine, and then combined with Bojuka Bog and Vesuva it's usually enough. It's also stronger against decks that can't immediately kill you with their graveyard: even if your Surgical gets countered against most fair decks, it means they have one less counterspell for your big threats. It also has play against BUG and RUG decks since they sometimes run a fun-of Life From the Loam.

[btm10]

It also has play against BUG and RUG decks since they sometimes run a fun-of Life From the Loam.

Still doesn't stop Zur's Weirding.

[Postman]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170527/d978d6a7566635cae713e694a53d9bd0.jpg

A friend of mine (and excellent artist) created what is basically the ultimate 12 Post playmat. Check it out:
https://www.inkedgaming.com/collections/art/products/stained-glass-titans


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks for sharing, order has been placed [emoji2]

[Zotmaster]

Still doesn't stop Zur's Weirding.

That was mean ;)

Hope you're doing well, my friend :)

[maCHOOga]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but not all hope is lost! Miracles is crawling back from the grave.

Miracles is currently the 4th seat in the MTGO metagame. Apparently without Top/Counterbalance; 4 ponder, brainstorm, portent and predicts allow the deck to still function.

I think it's time to start brewing again. :-)

[TheBoozeCube]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170601/cbe3c7285c7e9fced6e9bbb26b994959.jpg

This seems nuts. Maybe even nuts enough to be worth running Cascading Cataracts for?


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[Zotmaster]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170601/cbe3c7285c7e9fced6e9bbb26b994959.jpg

This seems nuts. Maybe even nuts enough to be worth running Cascading Cataracts for?

I'll grant that it's worth testing: the +1 is my favorite part of it. I've actually been trying to test the current incarnation of Bolas: +3 for permanent destruction is pretty awesome. So far I'm finding they're a little too awkward to play, even with enablers like Eureka and Selvala's Stampede. Plus I keep jumping from idea to idea like a hyperactive 6-year-old. We'll see.

[nimkee]

I'll grant that it's worth testing: the +1 is my favorite part of it. I've actually been trying to test the current incarnation of Bolas: +3 for permanent destruction is pretty awesome. So far I'm finding they're a little too awkward to play, even with enablers like Eureka and Selvala's Stampede. Plus I keep jumping from idea to idea like a hyperactive 6-year-old. We'll see.
Oath of Nissa comes to mind here.

Every time I had Eureka last night it got hit by a duress or a cabal. Thats not necessarily a bad thing I suppose. The problem is Im not casting it before turn 4...which might not be a bad if I keep the control deck mentality in mind. I really like the idea of dropping walkers or prime times off of Eureka.

I cant see running bolas without oath tbh. Is he really better than Ugin?

Has anyone continued testing the new nissa in the ug build with the evolving meta? I can only imagine how bad it would feel playing brainstorm against Leovold, as I rarely play decks with cantrips.

2 candle sales have fallen through in the past month. A 3rd one...is supposedly on its way. Finding these things is trickier than I expected where I live. Magus as a tutor target with gsz has been lackluster at best. Candling a Maze has to feel great. I will continue to just imagine it for now.

On a positive note, I almost always search up my one of vet exploder tho. He has been a 100% all star every game, and ramps me into bigger stuff quite nicely while making my land-drops with posts or other utility land. Explorer also plays nicely with Tabernacle.

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[nimkee]

I played a few matches with post today, one against another post player, UG post with Nissa's Oath, Mirri's Guile, Sylvan Library, Sorin Grim Nemesis, and LotV. He setup an Ugin flip to my face with Sorin, which was good to know as I hard a Eureka in hand.

His deck consistency was based on Mirri's, Sylvan, Crop rotation, brainstorm, and Oath. Fetches of course reset the top. I didn't see all of what he had, but early game it seems weaker to aggro than a C/g build, or the titan hybrid I'm playing. Maps to search up silver bullets, or Stirrings to dig 5 cards deep seem better tbh. Getting to maze / tabernacle / Karakas seems like it would be more problematic in the UG build above. While the Sorin or the Lilliana seem good, I don't know if its much more powerful than what we are already doing. At 6 mana a primetime provides a lot of flexibility. Lilliana sitting in hand unless an Oath is in play doesn't seem super great either.

If I see him again I'll ask for his decklist, see if he posts here at all.

[Skriger]

Oath of Nissa comes to mind here.
I cant see running bolas without oath tbh. Is he really better than Ugin?

Has anyone continued testing the new nissa in the ug build with the evolving meta? I can only imagine how bad it would feel playing brainstorm against Leovold, as I rarely play decks with cantrips.

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I think the new Nicol Bolas is a powerful card, but to try jamming into 12 post is odd. Seems to move away from the end goal of what the original idea of this deck is about. I agree that Ugin is more of a card you would need in this deck or even just running Karn Liberated is just as powerful. Both of those are much easier to cast as well without some crazy line up of lands and Oaths just to be able to cast.

I've been playing a blue heavy build with Nissa and have enjoyed her capabilities. The Scry effect is wonderful! She is tough to get running properly without Oath of Nissa though. I had a great game the other night against elves. I brainstormed got her and a glacial chasm. topped her with chasm below. Opponent was geared up to combo next turn so I was able to play nissa, used her 0 and plopped glacial chasm down to regulate the field. Turned the game by getting titan running quickly after and won the match. Her 0 ability definitely needs cantrips to support it feels like most of the time. I run 4 ponders and 4 brainstorms with 4 FoW and 1 Spell pierce for support.

[Roweboater]

I think the new Nicol Bolas is a powerful card, but to try jamming into 12 post is odd. Seems to move away from the end goal of what the original idea of this deck is about. I agree that Ugin is more of a card you would need in this deck or even just running Karn Liberated is just as powerful. Both of those are much easier to cast as well without some crazy line up of lands and Oaths just to be able to cast.

I've been playing a blue heavy build with Nissa and have enjoyed her capabilities. The Scry effect is wonderful! She is tough to get running properly without Oath of Nissa though. I had a great game the other night against elves. I brainstormed got her and a glacial chasm. topped her with chasm below. Opponent was geared up to combo next turn so I was able to play nissa, used her 0 and plopped glacial chasm down to regulate the field. Turned the game by getting titan running quickly after and won the match. Her 0 ability definitely needs cantrips to support it feels like most of the time. I run 4 ponders and 4 brainstorms with 4 FoW and 1 Spell pierce for support.


What creatures are you playing mainboard now? I remember suggesting Sylvan Carytid to you a while back. I have yet to try Nissa and am really looking at trying her soon. Been on an Infect grind for a little bit:p

[Skriger]

What creatures are you playing mainboard now? I remember suggesting Sylvan Carytid to you a while back. I have yet to try Nissa and am really looking at trying her soon. Been on an Infect grind for a little bit:p

I dumped that list. Seemed too slow and was getting knocked out too quickly. Couldnt handle any combo decks at all and they are flooding our meta right now.

Here is my new list:

1x Bojuka Bog
4x Brainstorm
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Cloudpost
4x Crop Rotation
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2x Expedition Map
1x Eye of Ugin
4x Force of Will
1x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Nissa, Steward of Elements
2x Oath of Nissa
2x Pithing Needle
3x Ponder
4x Primeval Titan
4x Show and Tell
2x Spell Pierce
4x Tropical Island
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2x Vesuva

//Sideboard
3x Flusterstorm
4x Krosan Grip
3x Surgical Extraction
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Thought-Knot Seer

[Roweboater]

I dumped that list. Seemed too slow and was getting knocked out too quickly. Couldnt handle any combo decks at all and they are flooding our meta right now.

Here is my new list:

1x Bojuka Bog
4x Brainstorm
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Cloudpost
4x Crop Rotation
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2x Expedition Map
1x Eye of Ugin
4x Force of Will
1x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Nissa, Steward of Elements
2x Oath of Nissa
2x Pithing Needle
3x Ponder
4x Primeval Titan
4x Show and Tell
2x Spell Pierce
4x Tropical Island
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2x Vesuva

//Sideboard
3x Flusterstorm
4x Krosan Grip
3x Surgical Extraction
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Thought-Knot Seer


How do you find this list performing? I may just use this and see how it feels.

[Skriger]

How do you find this list performing? I may just use this and see how it feels.

I've only tossed it at friends at the moment. Against eldrazi stompy, elves, B/U Reanimator, Shardless, Vial goblins, Landstill, U/R Delver. It's okay feels pretty solid control still not entirely sold on it yet. TKS are awesome against delver decks. I used to run them in the sb when our meta went delver heavy. It still feels clunky to me. More and more the mono green versions are sounding better again.

[nimkee]

I've only tossed it at friends at the moment. Against eldrazi stompy, elves, B/U Reanimator, Shardless, Vial goblins, Landstill, U/R Delver. It's okay feels pretty solid control still not entirely sold on it yet. TKS are awesome against delver decks. I used to run them in the sb when our meta went delver heavy. It still feels clunky to me. More and more the mono green versions are sounding better again.
How does the blue count feel for fow? How is pierce over fstorm?

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[MechTactical]

I played a few matches with post today, one against another post player, UG post with Nissa's Oath, Mirri's Guile, Sylvan Library, Sorin Grim Nemesis, and LotV. He setup an Ugin flip to my face with Sorin, which was good to know as I hard a Eureka in hand.

His deck consistency was based on Mirri's, Sylvan, Crop rotation, brainstorm, and Oath. Fetches of course reset the top. I didn't see all of what he had, but early game it seems weaker to aggro than a C/g build, or the titan hybrid I'm playing. Maps to search up silver bullets, or Stirrings to dig 5 cards deep seem better tbh. Getting to maze / tabernacle / Karakas seems like it would be more problematic in the UG build above. While the Sorin or the Lilliana seem good, I don't know if its much more powerful than what we are already doing. At 6 mana a primetime provides a lot of flexibility. Lilliana sitting in hand unless an Oath is in play doesn't seem super great either.

If I see him again I'll ask for his decklist, see if he posts here at all.

Hehe, that was my "jumping from idea to idea like a hyperactive six-year-old man-child" list. Frankly, I threw together that list after seeing the new Mr. Bolas and you asking about Nissa. The walkers are mostly based on the "Texas Walker" list someone posted some pages ago (I think it was before the top ban and can't find it anymore. Can't remeber how they named the idea, but it was walker something...). If I remember correctly, he even wrote a short article about it.

While I agree with Skriger (Ugin, Karn, original idea of the deck, ...) argument, I don't think Oath is inconsistent. Surprisingly it's been very consistent for me. With Brainstorm, guile, and Library you can avoid drawing the wrong walker/card most of the time.

I've played all sorts of builds since the top ban, mostly trying to replace the top with either, ponder, guile, library. To be frank, the most consistent success I've had was with Rock Lee's Cg list (slightly personalized). The only problem with that list is the three extra candles I don't own.

Here's the hyperactive six-year-old man-child list you were inquiring about:

Land (26)

1x Bojuka Bog
4x Cloudpost
1x Eye of Ugin
3x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Tropical Island
2x Vesuva

Artifact (1)

1x Candelabra of Tawnos

Planeswalker (10)

1x Chandra Ablaze
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Karn Liberated
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
2x Nissa, Steward of Elements
1x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Creature (6)

1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Primeval Titan
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

Enchantment (8)

2x Mirri's Guile
4x Oath of Nissa
2x Sylvan Library

Instant (8)

4x Brainstorm
4x Crop Rotation

Sorcery (2)

2x Show and Tell

Sideboard (15)

4x Flusterstorm
3x Krosan Grip
4x Surgical Extraction
2x Trickbind
2x Vexing Shusher

This list needs work, and I'm not sure about many of the card choices. Probably some walkers could get removed, and some added. Later on, I added needles, to protect my lands. On the other hand, I was able to cast my walkers consistently, and oath missed only once, this proved to me that the "Texas Walker" idea is theoretically feasible, which was the point of this little experiment. Even if Oath gets destroyed, you will most likely draw into another one. Maybe running Cataracts would be an option here (I will try it).

A mix of guile/library has been working for me quite well in this build, or the GSZ builds. With fetchlands, Gsz and other shuffle effects you can see a new top deck on each upkeep/draw step for free and get the best card. It can't replace top but dropping guile on T1 and then setting your draws for the rest of the game feels very strong. Once you're behind/low on the cards guile becomes less useful, since you need to wait for a whole turn to see another top deck and draw the potential answer naturally. It doesn't work well with SnT, because you often need that extra card draw (which top enabled) to assemble the combo.

I'm not sure I like Nissa after the top ban. I noticed I'm rarely using her +0 (which is the strongest ability in my opinion). Before the top was banned I was able to play a few games, and it was much, much easier to use her +0 to good effect. Scy 2 isn't really what we want I think. While we can easily achieve her ultimate, it's often too little too late to change the game state.

P.s. I've added Nahiri, the harbinger over 1x Nissa. Her ultimate seems like it could work perfectly in a walker post.

[nimkee]

Hey, nice to hear from you and good write up! Its great people are testing new things. I am still in the process of getting comfortable with a more "stock" list as I don't have a ton of experience with the archetype (nic fit 8 post, big elrazi, now green titan post with a white splash for sideboard cards). The funny thing is, even with over a dozen matches I am not using the white splash sideboard cards like RIP or Teeg...and am thinking of just dropping it for more forests, a conclusion which I am guessing some of the older members have already come to some time back. This archetype is probably the most fun since I've played Maverick.

re: walker post (straight brewer nonsense...read on at your discretion, just throwing out ideas)

I played the Doubling Moon Oath Walker Modern deck for a short bit, and I like the idea of Oath, though wonder which walkers (and shell?) are most useful. Ugin and Karn seem like no brainers in a more colorless build, but Ugin's -X wipes your own enchantments plus some of your own walkers. How about the other choices? Sorin seems like a great combat walker, plus card advantage engine. New Liliana might be better in this build than the older one. Chandra Flamecaller vs ablaze gives you a board wipe plus card advantage. I also wonder if a more Temur centered walker post would be feasible. Ral Zarek gives you an untap with candle or a cloudpost, or an eye if you have the mana open. This build would allow you to not have stranded cards while still utilizing oath. Jace Architect gives you CA or can slow a swarm of weenies.

Bare with me, but Surrak Dragonclaw eot, and untapping into a prime time would be hilarious. He has flash. Can't be countered (nor can any of your other creatures once he is out). Can't be bolted. Can't be fatal pushed. Can't be AD'd. Flash gets around Lilliana. You can GSZ him if you run that package. He is also protected by your own karakas. Also, I really like Eureka in a more walker heavy build. Siding in Bloodmoon and siding out higher end stuff while having access to Oath would be funny against some decks, possibly a thing.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on Nissa too, that makes a lot of sense. Good to know! The more I dink around, the more it seems like that C/g build is well placed. I like the prime-time / don't die to chalice version of post, and will keep brewing with that. Having a couple of real main deck also seems like a good idea in the UG build.

If you ever want to test on xmage shoot me a message - I am decent at piloting dragon stompy, tezzeret, maverick, and once upon a time grixis and UR delver if you want to cram some games and give some new lists a try.



Hehe, that was my "jumping from idea to idea like a hyperactive six-year-old man-child" list. Frankly, I threw together that list after seeing the new Mr. Bolas and you asking about Nissa. The walkers are mostly based on the "Texas Walker" list someone posted some pages ago (I think it was before the top ban and can't find it anymore. Can't remeber how they named the idea, but it was walker something...). If I remember correctly, he even wrote a short article about it.

While I agree with Skriger (Ugin, Karn, original idea of the deck, ...) argument, I don't think Oath is inconsistent. Surprisingly it's been very consistent for me. With Brainstorm, guile, and Library you can avoid drawing the wrong walker/card most of the time.

I've played all sorts of builds since the top ban, mostly trying to replace the top with either, ponder, guile, library. To be frank, the most consistent success I've had was with Rock Lee's Cg list (slightly personalized). The only problem with that list is the three extra candles I don't own.

Here's the hyperactive six-year-old man-child list you were inquiring about:

Land (26)

1x Bojuka Bog
4x Cloudpost
1x Eye of Ugin
3x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Tropical Island
2x Vesuva

Artifact (1)

1x Candelabra of Tawnos

Planeswalker (10)

1x Chandra Ablaze
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Karn Liberated
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
2x Nissa, Steward of Elements
1x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Creature (6)

1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Primeval Titan
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

Enchantment (8)

2x Mirri's Guile
4x Oath of Nissa
2x Sylvan Library

Instant (8)

4x Brainstorm
4x Crop Rotation

Sorcery (2)

2x Show and Tell

Sideboard (15)

4x Flusterstorm
3x Krosan Grip
4x Surgical Extraction
2x Trickbind
2x Vexing Shusher

This list needs work, and I'm not sure about many of the card choices. Probably some walkers could get removed, and some added. Later on, I added needles, to protect my lands. On the other hand, I was able to cast my walkers consistently, and oath missed only once, this proved to me that the "Texas Walker" idea is theoretically feasible, which was the point of this little experiment. Even if Oath gets destroyed, you will most likely draw into another one. Maybe running Cataracts would be an option here (I will try it).

A mix of guile/library has been working for me quite well in this build, or the GSZ builds. With fetchlands, Gsz and other shuffle effects you can see a new top deck on each upkeep/draw step for free and get the best card. It can't replace top but dropping guile on T1 and then setting your draws for the rest of the game feels very strong. Once you're behind/low on the cards guile becomes less useful, since you need to wait for a whole turn to see another top deck and draw the potential answer naturally. It doesn't work well with SnT, because you often need that extra card draw (which top enabled) to assemble the combo.

I'm not sure I like Nissa after the top ban. I noticed I'm rarely using her +0 (which is the strongest ability in my opinion). Before the top was banned I was able to play a few games, and it was much, much easier to use her +0 to good effect. Scy 2 isn't really what we want I think. While we can easily achieve her ultimate, it's often too little too late to change the game state.

[MechTactical]

Hey, nice to hear from you and good write up! Its great people are testing new things.

Hi man, thanks for the invite.

If you're splashing white, I highly recommend running at least two canonists in the board.

Most of the time I don't mind Ugin exiling my crap since I'm usually way ahead at that point and the wipe hurts the opponent more.
I'm running Chandra Flamecaller, that was a type-o (I don't know how to export decklists from xmage?). Surak may be better in a more creature heavy build? I've played with Eureka in other builds; I guess one would run it over SnT in a walker post, yes.

[Zotmaster]

All right, this time I mean it. I'll be playing/streaming today's Legacy challenge, which starts about 50 minutes from now. Come watch an appropriate amount of shenanigans and laugh at my misplays!

http://twitch.tv/zotmaster

[Postman]

12 Post is NOW on cam @SnapCasters2U (MTFFirst) (twitch)

[nimkee]

Edited --

Time stamp is 4:50 at this link: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149453626

He takes game 1 against eldrazi but gets absolutely obliterated post board. It looks like he is playing C/g titanless.


12 Post is NOW on cam @SnapCasters2U (MTFFirst) (twitch)
6 hrs ago...rough. I live in asia so dont get to see most stuff on twitch. I watched zotmasters first game and then passed out. What version of post was he playing? Any details on the matchup?

Sent from my SM-G935S using Tapatalk

[k_omega]

12 Post is NOW on cam @SnapCasters2U (MTFFirst) (twitch)


6 hrs ago...rough. I live in asia so dont get to see most stuff on twitch. I watched zotmasters first game and then passed out. What version of post was he playing? Any details on the matchup?


That was me, with the following C/g list, modified slightly from TheBoozeCube's:

4 Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Vesuva
7 Forest
2 Maze of Ith
1 Thespian's Stage, Karakas, Tabernacle, Bojuka Bog, Eye of Ugin, Glacial Chasm, Wastes

4 Crop Rotation, Ancient Stirrings, Expedition Map, Warping Wail
3 Candelabra, Pithing Needle
1 Spatial Contortion

1 New Emrakul, New Ulamog, Old Kozilek, Old Emrakul, TKS
2 Ugin, All is Dust

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
2 Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Spatial Contortion, Surgical, Ratchet Bomb
1 Dark Depths, Silent Arbiter

I got 9th at 5-2, with losses to Eldrazi and Esper True-Name and wins against BUG Leovold, Esper Stoneblade, Eldrazi, Storm, and Topless Miracles. That last one is still a good matchup.

Match reports, abbreviated since I wasn't taking post-game notes:
Round 1: BUG Leovold
Game 1: Multiple Hymns empty my hand and put All is Dust where it feeds a Tarmogoyf. Wasteland destroys the Maze which otherwise did very well against the Goyf, and I lose in two turns.

+1 Dark Depths, +2 Surgical, -1 Needle, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Warping Wail

Game 2: Hymns hit again, but I punk him out with Marit Lage.
Game 3: He fails to find Force of Will for Ugin, and Ulamog cleans up.

Round 2: Esper Stoneblade (Ben Friedman)
Game 1: We both durdle for a while, but I durdle to Emrakul.

-1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Pithing Needle, +3 Krosan Grip

Game 2: Multiple Thoughtseizes slow me down and I don't topdeck a bomb before Snapcaster + Collective Brutality steals my last 2 life. Meddling Mage appears and names Krosan Grips that are stuck in my hand.

-1 Krosan Grip, +1 Spatial Contortion

Game 3: A long grind. Maze of Ith holds off a Stoneforge that would have carried a Sword of Fire and Ice. Eventually resources are worn down after he Snap-Thoughtseizes away my Emrakul. I shuffle my graveyard in, topdeck a Crop Rotation for Eye, and get Emrakul again.

Round 3: Eldrazi
Game 1: I get run over, having not kept a hand that could have done anything against that deck before turn 5.

-2 All is Dust, -2 Ugin, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Spatial Contortion
+2 Ratchet Bomb, +3 Krosan Grip, +1 Silent Arbiter, +1 Dark Depths

Game 2: I mulligan to a 5 that contains Land, Maze, Candelabra. After some deft maneuvering involving copying Crystal Vein with Vesuva, Maze + Silent Arbiter staves off the horde long enough to land Ulamog and then Emrakul. Ratchet Bomb gets to clean up two Chalices, two Scions, and an Endless One on 7.

Game 3: I play tricks with Glacial Chasm and Thespian's Stage to wind up at 2 life with a Stage/Chasm and topdeck Expedition Map for Dark Depths.

Round 4: Storm
Game 1: I am on the draw and opt to play T1 Cloudpost, T2 Vesuva instead of T2 Glimmerpost which would have put me out of range of the T3 Tendrils kill.

-1 Spatial Contortion, -2 Maze of Ith, -1 Ulamog, -3 Pithing Needle, -2 All is Dust
+2 Ratchet Bomb, +2 Sphere of Resistance, +2 Trinisphere, +2 Surgical, +1 Dark Depths

Game 2: He keeps a no-land Probe hand but finds no lands with it. I set up Stage/Depths and he can't combo off on his last turn.

Game 3: He Duresses me on T1 and takes a Map because my post-mulligan hand doesn't have much action. Fortunately I topdeck Sphere of Resistance, TKS, 2x Surgical, and Bojuka Bog which are enough.

Round 5: Eldrazi *** Camera Match ***
Available here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149453626
4:50:55 - Opening hand drawn 2x Cloudpost, 2x Forest, 2x Crop Rotation, Spatial Contortion?
4:52:50 - I have a choice between holding up Crop Rotation or going whole-hog on Cloudposts. I go with the former to avoid a blowout. Since my opponent fails to draw land for a while I end up natural-ramping anyway.
4:53:52 - This Needle is on Wasteland, since the plan is to Rotate for Eye and cast Emrakul and every nonbasic is necessary.

4:56:10 - Sideboarding, same as before:
-2 All is Dust, -2 Ugin, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Spatial Contortion
+2 Ratchet Bomb, +3 Krosan Grip, +1 Silent Arbiter, +1 Dark Depths

4:56:20 - The decklist sheet. Being a math graduate student, I earn money by teaching math classes - in this case, Calculus II. I printed my decklist on the back of an unused worksheet I assigned to my class because I have hundreds of those things and there's no sense in not reusing perfectly useful paper with one side still blank.

4:58:30 - I'm contemplating a one-Forest hand that has Map, Candelabra, Ratchet Bomb but no way to stop a large creature. I decide that the payoff of drawing a land is not good enough and mulligan.
4:59:15 - This hand has 3 Vesuva as the only lands, and still no way to deal with a large creature. I'm basically mulliganing to Maze of Ith here, besides which copying his lands with Vesuva is dicey as I don't want to copy Tombs or Cities or Temples.
5:00:04 - I scry away Crop Rotation because I expect Chalice and need to draw Cloudposts.
5:00:20 - The tank here is to decide between holding up Rotation as a response or to deploy the Map. Since I expect needing to get Glacial Chasm at some point, I play the map since Chasm shouldn't be played on one land and also should not be gotten with Crop Rotation if at all possible.
5:00:45 - "I think 12 Post has it, completely" while the Chalice is coming down. If I had been able to hear this at the time I would have laughed out loud.
5:01:35 - Now that a Wasteland and a Chalice have appeared, the original plan of Map -> Chasm is suicidal. In fact Map -> almost any nonbasic is bad since the land just gets blown up because no Pithing Needle will be in play. However, Map -> Thespian's Stage still puts me at +1 mana for a while since my opponent will not proactively Wasteland it (because I'll just make it into a Forest), and if I draw a desired nonbasic (e.g. Maze) then I can copy that land with Stage in response to a Wasteland. And if, somehow, he taps the Wasteland and I have Dark Depths then I just win on the spot. The +1 mana could become important in order to Grip + 1cc spell in the same turn, though the game did not develop that way, and I might not be able to afford the 2 mana for Map at any other time. Map -> Stage is absolutely the correct play here. The long tank here is me working through this logic.
5:03:26 - Unfortunately that plan gets smashed by the arrival of Reality Smasher. If I don't chump with an Eldrazi Scion, then a topdecked Grip on Chalice followed by Crop Rotation -> Maze no longer saves me, and that is the only line that buys a turn through an active Wasteland (if I don't chump, I go to 6 and the non-Smasher creatures total 6 power). The chump must happen at the expense of the Stage. You can see how at the time I already had forgotten about the Thorn...
5:04:00 - Yes I know (now), the Crop Rotation can't actually be cast here because of the Thorn. My opponent and I both missed this fact, though it would not have changed the direction of the game.
5:05:54 - See above. I did get a warning for these.

5:09:50 - This hand has Wastes+T1 Candelabra followed by T2 Maze, has Ratchet Bomb/Krosan Grip to answer Chalices, and Stirrings to find cards. Yes, it has no green sources, but I can lock two creatures out of combat to buy time to find lands, and I can still answer Chalice without green because of the Ratchet Bomb. So I decide to keep. I think it's slightly more correct to mulligan, but that is easy to say now that the course of the game is known. If his hand had been TKS + Smasher + Chalice and nothing else then this hand wins pretty much every time, and that's a hand he would definitely keep given how game 2 played out. I would not keep this hand against any deck other than Eldrazi.
5:10:48 - Stream stress is for wimps.
5:11:02 - See, Cloudpost off the top. Things are already coming together.
5:13:18 - Nuts. The game is effectively over at this point.
5:13:37 - Not Glacial Chasm. Therefore scoop.

Round 6: Esper True-Name
Game 1: I resolve an Ugin that sweeps away a Deathrite and a Stoneforge, then a TNN. A second TNN follows and picks up a Jitte and a Batterskull. I have a Tabernacle in play and incorrectly search for Ulamog to take out the equipment. I get hit down to 2 and then drained by Collective Brutality.

-1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Warping Wail, +2 Krosan Grip, +1 Spatial Contortion
I am expecting Meddling Mages, so I bring in another Spatial Contortion.

Game 2: I have to play Chasm tricks against 2x Deathrite in order to stay alive, but he has triple Force of Will for the relevant spells. Bad luck here, but a better plan for True-Name Nemesis is in order.

Round 7: Topless Miracles
Game 1: I ramp hard and dump some Eldrazi after he burns a Force of Will on a Warping Wail that would have countered Entreat the Angels.
-1 Pithing Needle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Warping Wail, +3 Krosan Grip

Game 2: I mulligan to 4 and despite having access to 40 mana through Posts and Candelabras do not topdeck a bomb before dying to angel tokens.
Game 3: He fetches a lot of basics so I play conservatively in anticipation of Back to Basics. I have a hand full of threats though, and a Map for a third Cloudpost allows the Eldrazi parade to crush him.

Observations
1) Dark Depths definitely belongs in the sideboard.
2) Warping Wail gets sided out a lot, though I faced less combo than I expected.
3) A third Maze of Ith and an additional Forest would nice if a reasonable cut can be made.
4) Candelabra is insane.
5) A lot of opening hands are borderline. This could be just a fluke, but an additional filtering effect could go a long way. I'm thinking 1 Oath of Nissa or 1 Sylvan Library.

Changes
-1 Warping Wail, +1 Maze of Ith

Thanks for reading. I'll answer any questions.

[TheBoozeCube]

That was me, with the following C/g list, modified slightly from TheBoozeCube's:

4 Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Vesuva
7 Forest
2 Maze of Ith
1 Thespian's Stage, Karakas, Tabernacle, Bojuka Bog, Eye of Ugin, Glacial Chasm, Wastes

4 Crop Rotation, Ancient Stirrings, Expedition Map, Warping Wail
3 Candelabra, Pithing Needle
1 Spatial Contortion

1 New Emrakul, New Ulamog, Old Kozilek, Old Emrakul, TKS
2 Ugin, All is Dust

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
2 Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Spatial Contortion, Surgical, Ratchet Bomb
1 Dark Depths, Silent Arbiter

I got 9th at 5-2, with losses to Eldrazi and Esper True-Name and wins against BUG Leovold, Esper Stoneblade, Eldrazi, Storm, and Topless Miracles. That last one is still a good matchup.

Match reports, abbreviated since I wasn't taking post-game notes:
Round 1: BUG Leovold
Game 1: Multiple Hymns empty my hand and put All is Dust where it feeds a Tarmogoyf. Wasteland destroys the Maze which otherwise did very well against the Goyf, and I lose in two turns.

+1 Dark Depths, +2 Surgical, -1 Needle, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Warping Wail

Game 2: Hymns hit again, but I punk him out with Marit Lage.
Game 3: He fails to find Force of Will for Ugin, and Ulamog cleans up.

Round 2: Esper Stoneblade (Ben Friedman)
Game 1: We both durdle for a while, but I durdle to Emrakul.

-1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Pithing Needle, +3 Krosan Grip

Game 2: Multiple Thoughtseizes slow me down and I don't topdeck a bomb before Snapcaster + Collective Brutality steals my last 2 life. Meddling Mage appears and names Krosan Grips that are stuck in my hand.

-1 Krosan Grip, +1 Spatial Contortion

Game 3: A long grind. Maze of Ith holds off a Stoneforge that would have carried a Sword of Fire and Ice. Eventually resources are worn down after he Snap-Thoughtseizes away my Emrakul. I shuffle my graveyard in, topdeck a Crop Rotation for Eye, and get Emrakul again.

Round 3: Eldrazi
Game 1: I get run over, having not kept a hand that could have done anything against that deck before turn 5.

-2 All is Dust, -2 Ugin, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Spatial Contortion
+2 Ratchet Bomb, +3 Krosan Grip, +1 Silent Arbiter, +1 Dark Depths

Game 2: I mulligan to a 5 that contains Land, Maze, Candelabra. After some deft maneuvering involving copying Crystal Vein with Vesuva, Maze + Silent Arbiter staves off the horde long enough to land Ulamog and then Emrakul. Ratchet Bomb gets to clean up two Chalices, two Scions, and an Endless One on 7.

Game 3: I play tricks with Glacial Chasm and Thespian's Stage to wind up at 2 life with a Stage/Chasm and topdeck Expedition Map for Dark Depths.

Round 4: Storm
Game 1: I am on the draw and opt to play T1 Cloudpost, T2 Vesuva instead of T2 Glimmerpost which would have put me out of range of the T3 Tendrils kill.

-1 Spatial Contortion, -2 Maze of Ith, -1 Ulamog, -3 Pithing Needle, -2 All is Dust
+2 Ratchet Bomb, +2 Sphere of Resistance, +2 Trinisphere, +2 Surgical, +1 Dark Depths

Game 2: He keeps a no-land Probe hand but finds no lands with it. I set up Stage/Depths and he can't combo off on his last turn.

Game 3: He Duresses me on T1 and takes a Map because my post-mulligan hand doesn't have much action. Fortunately I topdeck Sphere of Resistance, TKS, 2x Surgical, and Bojuka Bog which are enough.

Round 5: Eldrazi *** Camera Match ***
Available here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149453626
4:50:55 - Opening hand drawn 2x Cloudpost, 2x Forest, 2x Crop Rotation, Spatial Contortion?
4:52:50 - I have a choice between holding up Crop Rotation or going whole-hog on Cloudposts. I go with the former to avoid a blowout. Since my opponent fails to draw land for a while I end up natural-ramping anyway.
4:53:52 - This Needle is on Wasteland, since the plan is to Rotate for Eye and cast Emrakul and every nonbasic is necessary.

4:56:10 - Sideboarding, same as before:
-2 All is Dust, -2 Ugin, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Spatial Contortion
+2 Ratchet Bomb, +3 Krosan Grip, +1 Silent Arbiter, +1 Dark Depths

4:56:20 - The decklist sheet. Being a math graduate student, I earn money by teaching math classes - in this case, Calculus II. I printed my decklist on the back of an unused worksheet I assigned to my class because I have hundreds of those things and there's no sense in not reusing perfectly useful paper with one side still blank.

4:58:30 - I'm contemplating a one-Forest hand that has Map, Candelabra, Ratchet Bomb but no way to stop a large creature. I decide that the payoff of drawing a land is not good enough and mulligan.
4:59:15 - This hand has 3 Vesuva as the only lands, and still no way to deal with a large creature. I'm basically mulliganing to Maze of Ith here, besides which copying his lands with Vesuva is dicey as I don't want to copy Tombs or Cities or Temples.
5:00:04 - I scry away Crop Rotation because I expect Chalice and need to draw Cloudposts.
5:00:20 - The tank here is to decide between holding up Rotation as a response or to deploy the Map. Since I expect needing to get Glacial Chasm at some point, I play the map since Chasm shouldn't be played on one land and also should not be gotten with Crop Rotation if at all possible.
5:00:45 - "I think 12 Post has it, completely" while the Chalice is coming down. If I had been able to hear this at the time I would have laughed out loud.
5:01:35 - Now that a Wasteland and a Chalice have appeared, the original plan of Map -> Chasm is suicidal. In fact Map -> almost any nonbasic is bad since the land just gets blown up because no Pithing Needle will be in play. However, Map -> Thespian's Stage still puts me at +1 mana for a while since my opponent will not proactively Wasteland it (because I'll just make it into a Forest), and if I draw a desired nonbasic (e.g. Maze) then I can copy that land with Stage in response to a Wasteland. And if, somehow, he taps the Wasteland and I have Dark Depths then I just win on the spot. The +1 mana could become important in order to Grip + 1cc spell in the same turn, though the game did not develop that way, and I might not be able to afford the 2 mana for Map at any other time. Map -> Stage is absolutely the correct play here. The long tank here is me working through this logic.
5:03:26 - Unfortunately that plan gets smashed by the arrival of Reality Smasher. If I don't chump with an Eldrazi Scion, then a topdecked Grip on Chalice followed by Crop Rotation -> Maze no longer saves me, and that is the only line that buys a turn through an active Wasteland (if I don't chump, I go to 6 and the non-Smasher creatures total 6 power). The chump must happen at the expense of the Stage. You can see how at the time I already had forgotten about the Thorn...
5:04:00 - Yes I know (now), the Crop Rotation can't actually be cast here because of the Thorn. My opponent and I both missed this fact, though it would not have changed the direction of the game.
5:05:54 - See above. I did get a warning for these.

5:09:50 - This hand has Wastes+T1 Candelabra followed by T2 Maze, has Ratchet Bomb/Krosan Grip to answer Chalices, and Stirrings to find cards. Yes, it has no green sources, but I can lock two creatures out of combat to buy time to find lands, and I can still answer Chalice without green because of the Ratchet Bomb. So I decide to keep. I think it's slightly more correct to mulligan, but that is easy to say now that the course of the game is known. If his hand had been TKS + Smasher + Chalice and nothing else then this hand wins pretty much every time, and that's a hand he would definitely keep given how game 2 played out. I would not keep this hand against any deck other than Eldrazi.
5:10:48 - Stream stress is for wimps.
5:11:02 - See, Cloudpost off the top. Things are already coming together.
5:13:18 - Nuts. The game is effectively over at this point.
5:13:37 - Not Glacial Chasm. Therefore scoop.

Round 6: Esper True-Name
Game 1: I resolve an Ugin that sweeps away a Deathrite and a Stoneforge, then a TNN. A second TNN follows and picks up a Jitte and a Batterskull. I have a Tabernacle in play and incorrectly search for Ulamog to take out the equipment. I get hit down to 2 and then drained by Collective Brutality.

-1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Warping Wail, +2 Krosan Grip, +1 Spatial Contortion
I am expecting Meddling Mages, so I bring in another Spatial Contortion.

Game 2: I have to play Chasm tricks against 2x Deathrite in order to stay alive, but he has triple Force of Will for the relevant spells. Bad luck here, but a better plan for True-Name Nemesis is in order.

Round 7: Topless Miracles
Game 1: I ramp hard and dump some Eldrazi after he burns a Force of Will on a Warping Wail that would have countered Entreat the Angels.
-1 Pithing Needle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Warping Wail, +3 Krosan Grip

Game 2: I mulligan to 4 and despite having access to 40 mana through Posts and Candelabras do not topdeck a bomb before dying to angel tokens.
Game 3: He fetches a lot of basics so I play conservatively in anticipation of Back to Basics. I have a hand full of threats though, and a Map for a third Cloudpost allows the Eldrazi parade to crush him.

Observations
1) Dark Depths definitely belongs in the sideboard.
2) Warping Wail gets sided out a lot, though I faced less combo than I expected.
3) A third Maze of Ith and an additional Forest would nice if a reasonable cut can be made.
4) Candelabra is insane.
5) A lot of opening hands are borderline. This could be just a fluke, but an additional filtering effect could go a long way. I'm thinking 1 Oath of Nissa or 1 Sylvan Library.

Changes
-1 Warping Wail, +1 Maze of Ith

Thanks for reading. I'll answer any questions.

Congrats on the finish!

I definitely agree on the third Maze. I tried cutting one not long ago and really missed it. The third copy makes a big difference with both Ancient Stirrings and natural draw. Another Forest would be nice, but I think having the Wastes in that slot is more important in the current meta to fight W/R D&T. And I can't see another slot for it.

I'm surprised at how often you're boarding out Wail. I'd have kept it in vs both BUG and Esper to eat Deathrites and Stoneforges. But I've also been having difficulty deciding what to board out lately. Did you miss them at all?

I'm curious how TKS performed. How often did you see/cast it? Did you ever Eye for it? Did it make a noticeable difference?

As far as filtering, I think Sylvan is better. With all the Chalices running around, 1G might be the superior choice. Another possibility I've considered (but never tested) is Scroll Rack, which has the advantage of being colorless. Another option might be to move a second Spatial to the main or run a 1x Dismember. It won't smooth your draws, but it does give you more early removal that's castable by marginal hands to help give you more time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nimkee]

Thanks for the write-up! Seeing you crop rotate into tabernacle that first game was pretty sweet. Its too bad it didn't turn out well in the other games. Getting 9th is pretty sweet, congrats on the finish!

I played a few round tonight and found myself repeatedly mulliganing because of one landers. We had a short 3 rounds, and I went 1-2 overall using mono-green post (sorry for the formatting).

2 [ROE:174] Ancient Stirrings
1 [OGW:184b] Wastes
4 [MRD:280] Cloudpost
7 [UNH:140] Forest
1 [OGW:126] World Breaker
3 [MBS:81] Green Sun's Zenith
1 [VMA:208] Eureka
2 [ZEN:201] Expedition Map
1 [LEG:248] Karakas
2 [AVR:226] Cavern of Souls
1 [C14:285] Bojuka Bog
2 [FRF:1] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 [TSP:281] Vesuva
1 [DRK:114] Maze of Ith
1 [CSP:145] Dark Depths
2 [OGW:12] Warping Wail
2 [ALA:218] Relic of Progenitus
2 [ODY:251] Moment's Peace
1 [GTC:248] Thespian's Stage
1 [ROE:4] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [WWK:136] Eye of Ugin
4 [M12:188] Primeval Titan
2 [ZEN:172] Oracle of Mul Daya
1 [EMN:6] Emrakul, the Promised End
3 [RTR:231] Pithing Needle
2 [WTH:86] Veteran Explorer
4 [SOM:227] Glimmerpost
1 [BFZ:15] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [LEG:252] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 [ULG:98] Crop Rotation
SB: 1 [MLP:34] Endbringer
SB: 1 [MGDC:39] Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 [MM2:99] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [DRK:109] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [V12:7] Glacial Chasm
SB: 1 [MBP:33] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [OGW:12] Warping Wail
SB: 2 [SHM:66] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [C15:189] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [ODY:251] Moment's Peace
SB: 1 [PTC:46] Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 [ROE:1] All Is Dust

Round 1, Grixis Delver 0-2.

G1: I got destroyed by t1 delver, then t2 flipped the delver off a force, then git probes into therapy and then wastelands my cloudpost. T3 he fetches, plays another delver and shreds my hand and bolts me end of my turn. T4 he untaps into another land and a big fish after probing me again.

G2: I start with a glimmerpost on Pithing Needle. His t1 is delver. T2 I play a forest into an ancient stirrings that finds a maze of ith. He flips delver off of bolt, then git probes and therapies me again. I untap, play a maze, and a veteran explorer, and eat a bolt to the dome eot. T3 he untaps and plays a vortex which seals the deal. I durdle with maze of ith a bit but he plays more threats and has bolts to help him race. He also stifled my maze of ith twice.

Grixis delver feels like a horrible matchup. My list in particular doesn't seem especially great, how does the straight C/g matchup feel?

round 2: Br-reanimator, 2-0

These games dragged out but began with me having a crop-rotation, maze, or karakas in hand which kind of kept my opponent from really doing anything. I drew relic and surgical extraction game 2 and beat down with a vet explorer for awhile through a bloodmoon. I eventually drew big stuff and killed him.

round 3: goblins...1-2

This matchup felt very swingy. Game 1 I won the die roll and played a needle on wasteland with a glimmerpost. He had t1 goblin lackey. I don't remember what exactly happened but it snowballed quickly. I have more outs than he has lackeys but didn't see any. Game 2 I lead with forest into a stirrings and find a cloudpost. He leads...with a turn 1 lackey. T2 I play a cloudpost, which he wastes on his turn but I crop rotate it away into another post b/c my hand is very land light and I don't want to get wasted again. T3 I vesuva my post and then spatial contort his lackey on his turn. I think I untapped with ugin mana available and that was it.

G3...He leads with turn 1 lackey. That is 3 games in a row. I have needle for wasteland and he connects with lackey. Stuff happens fast and I never see any removal (post board, 3 warping wail, spatial contortion, maze of ith, even any of the 3 moments peace would have let me live, but just didn't get any of it.

I definitely missed not having the full three warping wails main. They are great cards.

My bastardized version seems to be missing something, though it does fantastic against midrange and control decks, and some of the combo decks...I just got wrecked tonight.

Any thoughts on this list and what I could switch-up? I will have a single candle at some point, though who knows when it will get here. I'll be playing titan post for the foreseeable future, though I might switch to the UG version at some point just to give it a try. Do you guys think the UG version is better than mono-green titan?

[Prdgychild]

That was me, with the following C/g list, modified slightly from TheBoozeCube's:

4 Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Vesuva
7 Forest
2 Maze of Ith
1 Thespian's Stage, Karakas, Tabernacle, Bojuka Bog, Eye of Ugin, Glacial Chasm, Wastes

4 Crop Rotation, Ancient Stirrings, Expedition Map, Warping Wail
3 Candelabra, Pithing Needle
1 Spatial Contortion

1 New Emrakul, New Ulamog, Old Kozilek, Old Emrakul, TKS
2 Ugin, All is Dust

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
2 Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Spatial Contortion, Surgical, Ratchet Bomb
1 Dark Depths, Silent Arbiter

I got 9th at 5-2, with losses to Eldrazi and Esper True-Name and wins against BUG Leovold, Esper Stoneblade, Eldrazi, Storm, and Topless Miracles. That last one is still a good matchup.


.

Can you say more about Round 3: Eldrazi with the chasm/stage shenanigains, how does that work? Also, why wastes over cataracts!?

[203995014]

Can you say more about Round 3: Eldrazi with the chasm/stage shenanigains, how does that work? Also, why wastes over cataracts!?

Wastes still taps for colorless mana through Blood Moon, which is important for being able to cast Spatial Contortion post-board.

[TheBoozeCube]

Grixis delver feels like a horrible matchup. My list in particular doesn't seem especially great, how does the straight C/g matchup feel?

It's pretty 50/50, I think. Having a full 4x maindeck board wipes, plus more cheap (non-Titan) tutors for Maze and Tabernacle goes a long way. The full set of Ancient Stirrings in particular makes finding any of those things much easier. Topdecking Ancient Stirrings also helps recover from heavy discard.

Warping Wail is a very strong card here, since it answers Pyromancer, Deathrite, and discard. Access to multiple Candelabras really makes a difference against Delver generally, both for untapping Mazes and to hedge against Wasteland. Unless I have Needle out, I always play very conservatively with my Crop Rotations and save them for protecting Maze/Cloudpost.


Any thoughts on this list and what I could switch-up? I will have a single candle at some point, though who knows when it will get here. I'll be playing titan post for the foreseeable future, though I might switch to the UG version at some point just to give it a try. Do you guys think the UG version is better than mono-green titan?

Between those two, I think UG is probably better right now. Mono-G Titan was hurt the most by the ban. It doesn't have the colorless density to really rely on Ancient Stirrings to smooth out its draws like Cg. UG gives you access to Brainstorm. It also relies on Candelabra much less, which is important if you have only one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[k_omega]

Congrats on the finish!

I definitely agree on the third Maze. I tried cutting one not long ago and really missed it. The third copy makes a big difference with both Ancient Stirrings and natural draw. Another Forest would be nice, but I think having the Wastes in that slot is more important in the current meta to fight W/R D&T. And I can't see another slot for it.

I'm surprised at how often you're boarding out Wail. I'd have kept it in vs both BUG and Esper to eat Deathrites and Stoneforges. But I've also been having difficulty deciding what to board out lately. Did you miss them at all?

I'm curious how TKS performed. How often did you see/cast it? Did you ever Eye for it? Did it make a noticeable difference?

As far as filtering, I think Sylvan is better. With all the Chalices running around, 1G might be the superior choice. Another possibility I've considered (but never tested) is Scroll Rack, which has the advantage of being colorless. Another option might be to move a second Spatial to the main or run a 1x Dismember. It won't smooth your draws, but it does give you more early removal that's castable by marginal hands to help give you more time.


I agree about the necessity of basic Wastes. Regarding Warping Wail, I only ever boarded out one copy if any. Usually I was in a situation where I wanted to bring in multiple copies of a high-impact card (Grip, Surgical) and needed to make a cut somewhere. While it's possible that I overvalued the sideboard cards and underestimated Deathrite or Stoneforge or Wail, I think the sideboard cards impact the match much more than a Warping Wail could:

1) BUG - I prefer to use Needle to fight Deathrites since if a Needle on Wasteland gets Decayed before you cast a bomb then it effectively did nothing, whereas if a Needle on Deathrite gets Decayed then you still saved 4 life or deprived them of some mana. So I like Surgical as an answer to Wasteland/Force/Hymn and 2x copies are needed. Dark Depths also warrants bringing in.

2) Esper - Maze already answers anything Stoneforge can really do except put equipment on True-Name, which Warping Wail cannot address but Krosan Grip can. I also feared Back to Basics so I doubled up on Grip. Also Spatial Contortion since Meddling Mage can shut me down. Warping Wail doesn't do anything about that either.

3) Miracles - Nothing that Warping Wail does is really necessary, but Krosan Grip for Back to Basics is (I think) absolutely required.

I only saw TKS against Storm where it was one of the key elements of winning the match (I took a Chain of Vapor that would have bounced the Sphere that was keeping him down, forcing him to Grim Tutor for one). Since C/g has no Leylines to protect the hand, a critical mass of disruption seems necessary so that you can play off the top of the deck and TKS helps that by being maindeckable. I put it in an open slot because I saw a lot of Omnitell at the previous tournament and wanted something useful to put in off of Show and Tell. It also buys good time against small-ish creature decks in general. I did not Eye for it in this event, but I have in the past in order to snipe Prices out of a Burn player's hand while I sat behind Glacial Chasm. I think it could be cut, though I would want to draw it more often before passing judgment.

I also would favor Sylvan Library, but the problem I'm concerned with is hands with one mana-producing land that are otherwise solid. An Oath might make those hands keepable while Sylvan does not. With Chalice being as prevalent as it is, though, I have to give the edge to Sylvan.


Can you say more about Round 3: Eldrazi with the chasm/stage shenanigans, how does that work? Also, why wastes over cataracts!?
Wastes taps for colorless under Blood Moon, so I can Spatial Contortion a Magus or Warping Wail a Painter or cast TKS. The Chasm/Stage shenanigans I alluded to were (as I remember):
1) At 6 life with a Stage in play as a Cloudpost I play Glacial Chasm and sacrifice a Maze.
2) On my next turn I pay 2 life for Chasm and play a Dark Depths off a topdecked Map. I need to copy Dark Depths on the end of my opponents' turn after next, so on the end of his next turn I copy Chasm with Stage since I am now at 4 life and can't pay the upkeep on my turn, but need a Chasm in play to survive combat.
3) I pay 2 life for the Stage/Chasm and sacrifice the original Chasm to its cumulative upkeep. The Stage is now an untapped Stage/Chasm. I play a second Pithing Needle on Wasteland as protection.
4) On the end of my opponent's turn I produce Marit Lage. Untap and attack for lethal.

Usually the trick is to copy Chasm with Stage on your upkeep in response to the Chasm's upkeep trigger, then don't pay for the original Chasm. That would have been incorrect here as it would have left the Stage/Chasm tapped and unable to copy Dark Depths.

[nimkee]

Any tips for titanless or C/g matchups vs UR and Grixis Delver? I did a small

I've played about a dozen matches over the last few days and have not won a single game. These matchups seem brutal. With grixis its always a turn 1 delver, or a git probe into a cabal therapy, followed by a turn 2 wasteland if I don't play a basic. People also seem to be back on stifle, which is wrecking me. I had a map stifled, and then a maze stifled, and then a snapcaster flashing back a stifle on another maze activation. It was B.R.U.T.A.L. Even when I get a needle up on wasteland it doesn't seem long before I get blown out. One game I needled t1, then removed a delver on my t2 with a wail, but then he plays another delver and a gurmag. I got bolted a couple times to the face for good measure that match.

I also, for whatever reason...am constantly mulliganing with this deck, in paper and online (I swear xmage hates this deck..). My build has 28 or 29 lands depending (minus chasm, dd, tabernacle, maze, and eye) there are still 23-24 lands but I constantly brick with either a single mana source or zero. That obviously doesn't help with these matchups...

Any advice navigating these two matchups would be great. I never seem to have problems with esper control, or czech pile...just the two above delver variants.

Thanks,

[diablo4488]

Any tips for titanless or C/g matchups vs UR and Grixis Delver? I did a small

I've played about a dozen matches over the last few days and have not won a single game. These matchups seem brutal. With grixis its always a turn 1 delver, or a git probe into a cabal therapy, followed by a turn 2 wasteland if I don't play a basic. People also seem to be back on stifle, which is wrecking me. I had a map stifled, and then a maze stifled, and then a snapcaster flashing back a stifle on another maze activation. It was B.R.U.T.A.L. Even when I get a needle up on wasteland it doesn't seem long before I get blown out. One game I needled t1, then removed a delver on my t2 with a wail, but then he plays another delver and a gurmag. I got bolted a couple times to the face for good measure that match.

I also, for whatever reason...am constantly mulliganing with this deck, in paper and online (I swear xmage hates this deck..). My build has 28 or 29 lands depending (minus chasm, dd, tabernacle, maze, and eye) there are still 23-24 lands but I constantly brick with either a single mana source or zero. That obviously doesn't help with these matchups...

Any advice navigating these two matchups would be great. I never seem to have problems with esper control, or czech pile...just the two above delver variants.

Thanks,

As you already mentioned, these are really hard matchups. Carpet of Flowers and Trickbind are nice here. Normaly i won over S&T or hardcast Titan over Cavern.