[Deck] 12 Post

[Rock Lee]

This is the list I just won my weekly 5$ entry event for a Lion's Eye Diamond for. The list felt extremely solid. Didn't drop a single game, all 2-0's. Testing has shown the list to be disgustingly strong as well.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
3 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
2 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Island

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [US] Show and Tell
3 [GP] Repeal
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 1 [RTR] Cyclonic Rift

[HammafistRoob]

Yay Trinket Mage! I love that guy. When's the last time you tried a list without S&T? An earlier post got me thinking about cutting all of them, and it seems like a high variance slot in an otherwise well-oiled machine. Thoughts?

[Rock Lee]

Yay Trinket Mage! I love that guy. When's the last time you tried a list without S&T? An earlier post got me thinking about cutting all of them, and it seems like a high variance slot in an otherwise well-oiled machine. Thoughts?

years. The meta has shifted heavily since then. It isn't worth completely discrediting, especially since I ALWAYS show in a titan and bonfire shores up matchups where you would need show and tell immediately.

I will test, however don't mistake decks with low card counts as them being non-vital.

[That nice guy]

This deck changes like crazy. How'd GSZ work out?

No Taiga to go with the island?

So thragtusk or Oeacle? I loved Oracle!

[Rock Lee]

This deck changes like crazy. How'd GSZ work out?

No Taiga to go with the island?

So thragtusk or Oeacle? I loved Oracle!

Because the curve can reach so much higher, this deck has nearly infinite wiggle room, unlike the vast majority of decks. One of the reasons I enjoy it. My deckbuilding interests are never tapped.

Thragtusk and oracle are great, but in a meta built on beating creatures, even highly efficient ones aren't optimal unless I can soak/counter/dissolve the removal they have, often with my own creatures.

GSZ is in the same boat.

[Lemnear]

Haha, this thread is outright confusing.

Cards like Candelabra, GSZ, S&T, DRS, Repeal, Thragtusk and others are first praised as the lord himself and enter the list as a 4-off and get completely cut in the next list Jeremiah tinkers and posts.

It's really funny to see all the madness within the limitless potential of the core of the deck and how some peeps bandwagon in this thread ;)

[HammafistRoob]

It's called trying to solve the problems the deck has in a given metagame. Peeps bandwagon constantly in Magic, it's part of the competitive scene. Note how everyone that plays any deck plays the same tried and tested list, give or take 3-5 slots in the entire 75.

[TimHarding]

It's called trying to solve the problems the deck has in a given metagame. Peeps bandwagon constantly in Magic, it's part of the competitive scene. Note how everyone that plays any deck plays the same tried and tested list, give or take 3-5 slots in the entire 75.

Exactly. As mentioned before the selections with this archetype are highly variable compared to agonizing over how many probes to play or snare vs pierce in RUG. DRS to bonfire actually is a 'tweak' in this deck. They're both different angles to solve the problem in the meta, which has swiftly jumped from UWR delver (which prompted DRS), to moons and pyromancer, which calls on bonfire. I still have my grasses and needles on deck for when the seasons change.

Also Swan Song will def get slots in my board.

[Rock Lee]

Also Swan Song will def get slots in my board.

Thank you for reminding me about the pre-empt Swag Song note. That card is incredible, and will definitely see a heavy inclusion in the sideboard. Dispel + Envelop with splashes against most problem matches? yes. Yes please.

Combo was already on the decline in presence, but now it is just getting ground down hard.

[That nice guy]

Thank you for reminding me about the pre-empt Swag Song note. That card is incredible, and will definitely see a heavy inclusion in the sideboard. Dispel + Envelop with splashes against most problem matches? yes. Yes please.

You're going to cut force or Mindbreak Trap for it. I think cutting 2 force would and 1 trap would be good.

Again, no Taiga to keep the basic island company?

[Rock Lee]

Since red is new to my archetype's testing, I am open to sideboard slots in red, something I haven't considered often.

Not looking for strong red permanents more good instant/sorceries with heavy advantage for minimal cost.

Might run Wild ricochet until Swan Song comes out. That card is bonkers.

[Rock Lee]

You're going to cut force or Mindbreak Trap for it. I think cutting 2 force would and 1 trap would be good.

Again, no Taiga to keep the basic island company?

I would run a basic forest before a taiga.

I will probably cut force altogether. The card just requires too much blue for this deck to adjust reasonably, and swan song hits all the important players.

[HammafistRoob]

Good ol' Pyroclasm is a WoG in a lot of matches. Like Elves, Goblins, Deathblade and D&T. Also really good against BUG killing all but goyf.

[Julian23]

Tossing around some ideas, I came across Through the Breach while we're in red already. End of turn Titan? Don't know if that's potent enough though since it's 5 mana. At least it avoids the drawback of S&T. I don't however see the need for it as a sideboard option though. Just some random thought while eating dinner.

[Rock Lee]

Good ol' Pyroclasm is a WoG in a lot of matches. Like Elves, Goblins, Deathblade and D&T. Also really good against BUG killing all but goyf.

I should probably have been more specific. With the current config, anything running X/1's or DRS crumple easily. This last 2-of slot is mostly for random combo, grindy combo *heavy discard combo* and possibly decks where I relied more on Show & Tell to win through desperation, ie Burn, Reanimator, most forms of combo. Also living the dream on hymn with wild ricochet, would make my magical career.

[Rock Lee]

Tossing around some ideas, I came across Through the Breach while we're in red already. End of turn Titan? Don't know if that's potent enough though since it's 5 mana. At least it avoids the drawback of S&T. I don't however see the need for it as a sideboard option though. Just some random thought while eating dinner.

That is brilliant.

[Darkenslight]

Potentially, there's also the recently-spoiled Sorcery, Anger of the Gods:

:1::r::r:
~ deals 3 damage to each creature. If any creature dealt damage this way would die this turn, exile it instead.

[HammafistRoob]

Ah gotcha, Breach seems really good once you get it off, fetching four lands instantly is most definitely GG, but I'm skeptical about for reasons stated earlier about S&T.

[Rock Lee]

Ah gotcha, Breach seems really good once you get it off, fetching four lands instantly is most definitely GG, but I'm skeptical about for reasons stated earlier about S&T.

S&T is there to beat heavy land-disruption or a fast clock. There against things like Knight, loam, blood moon, but also against fast clocks like affinity, elves, ichorid, MUD. In all those matchups, S&T is your best card.

The reason Through the Breech is amazing, is you can use it as a counterspell with glen elendra for super utility, as another crop rotate for bog with a titan in hand, or just annihilate them, which is something you can't rely on with Show & Tell. The applications are different, but still incredible and while overlapping, distinctly varied.

[TimHarding]

I definitely like the idea of TTB, but I don't think it should replace any S&T. Scraping up three mana, often after a chasm is the only way out of a lot of situations for this deck when its back stepping, IMO. Maybe a 3/2 split, 4th show in board. And while it's def game breaking, a lot of those situations seem like 'win-more' rather than get there at all. Plus firing off a 3 mana "deal with this" on early turns really helps this deck curve to Titan. The tricks are fun but it accelerates Titan only 1 mana.. Might as well run sneak attack?

Can't believe I'm balking at a bomb comboey card haha, usually down for any rocket fuel we can use lol


Could also tutor up boseju! (Sp)

[HoneyT]

I don't post in this thread too often but I noticed there seems to be some interest in the color red. I've been working on a red version for some time now. This is my current configuration:

// Deck: Breach Post (60)

// Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Taiga
4 Vesuva
4 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

// Spells
3 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
4 Explore
3 Punishing Fire
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Through the Breach

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Cursed Totem
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst

This version has quite a lot of power to it. Explores are pretty necessary in this version. Without access to Brainstorm, we need another source of card advantage. This one happens to allow for turn 3 Through the Breaches and Titans. As with any version of 12post, we're a dog to combo game 1, hence the sideboard being dedicated to shoring up those matchups.

[That nice guy]

Now that Bonfire is in there is chasm even needed?

[TimHarding]

I don't post in this thread too often but I noticed there seems to be some interest in the color red. I've been working on a red version for some time now. This is my current configuration:

// Deck: Breach Post (60)

// Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Taiga
4 Vesuva
4 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

// Spells
3 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
4 Explore
3 Punishing Fire
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Through the Breach

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Cursed Totem
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst

This version has quite a lot of power to it. Explores are pretty necessary in this version. Without access to Brainstorm, we need another source of card advantage. This one happens to allow for turn 3 Through the Breaches and Titans. As with any version of 12post, we're a dog to combo game 1, hence the sideboard being dedicated to shoring up those matchups.

This list seems boss. I like all this red coming out of the woodwork, but I can't imagine playing without fluster - even more than playing without the other blue. How's are games 2-3 against combo? Storm and omni in particular. And hows punishing fire? It's a repeat effect but do games develop where you need to be leaning on it? How easy has TtB been to reach?

[J-Funk]

I don't post in this thread too often but I noticed there seems to be some interest in the color red. I've been working on a red version for some time now. This is my current configuration:

// Deck: Breach Post (60)

// Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Taiga
4 Vesuva
4 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

// Spells
3 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
4 Explore
3 Punishing Fire
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Through the Breach

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Cursed Totem
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst

This version has quite a lot of power to it. Explores are pretty necessary in this version. Without access to Brainstorm, we need another source of card advantage. This one happens to allow for turn 3 Through the Breaches and Titans. As with any version of 12post, we're a dog to combo game 1, hence the sideboard being dedicated to shoring up those matchups.

Oooooh, this list is SAUCY! I love this all-in approach. I definitely need to test this.

I actually think that a deck without blue can still have game against Combo. Thorn of Amethyst is SUPER powerful against any sort of combo deck, and don't forget we can still run Chalice of the Void for huge value. There are many colorless ways of shutting down combo decks.


Something I've been really thinking about lately is trying to play through control decks. I feel like there are plenty of lands out there that can allow us to power through control at huge value, and if we are going to run Explore, Map, AND Crop rotation, I think there's a place for them in there.

I've been testing a single copy of Cavern of Souls to great success in order to consistently resolve my Primeval Titans, and if we're seriously looking at TtB, I think there's room for Boseiju, Who Shelters All somewhere in the 60. Maybe it belongs in the sideboard, I don't know. All I know is, protecting a TtB seems really important. That card can win a game immediately.

[TimHarding]

Oooooh, this list is SAUCY! I love this all-in approach. I definitely need to test this.

I actually think that a deck without blue can still have game against Combo. Thorn of Amethyst is SUPER powerful against any sort of combo deck, and don't forget we can still run Chalice of the Void for huge value. There are many colorless ways of shutting down combo decks.


Something I've been really thinking about lately is trying to play through control decks. I feel like there are plenty of lands out there that can allow us to power through control at huge value, and if we are going to run Explore, Map, AND Crop rotation, I think there's a place for them in there.

I've been testing a single copy of Cavern of Souls to great success in order to consistently resolve my Primeval Titans, and if we're seriously looking at TtB, I think there's room for Boseiju, Who Shelters All somewhere in the 60. Maybe it belongs in the sideboard, I don't know. All I know is, protecting a TtB seems really important. That card can win a game immediately.

AMEN. Thank you. Cavern was a weekly debate between Rock Lee and I at our weekly legacy for some time. While it might be superfluous against Tundra decks, I loved it against tempo. In a four map build, you'll stick at least 1 crop or map while playing through the tempo. This is great because they will have pressure and save FOW for the titan, and boom, CAVERN. I would even pick this as my line at the first sign of a deck with multiple counters. It's even fine in my DRS build with four different creature types. As long as you aren't cutting colored sources for it, it's not a huge liability. However, in blood moon season I'll run another basic over it..

[J-Funk]

I just had another idea. Has anybody tried playing Xantid Swarm? This is going back to the U/G build, but Xantid Swarm could help force a S&T through on turn 3. Just a thought.

[TimHarding]

I just had another idea. Has anybody tried playing Xantid Swarm? This is going back to the U/G build, but Xantid Swarm could help force a S&T through on turn 3. Just a thought.

I did try this. But when you think about it, in this context its a cavern of souls/mayyybe bosejiu that can be countered or bolted. Doesn't add mana nor can be searched for. While 1 was alright in a test build I had with GSZ and NO, I think the stronger plan is to amass advantage to beat the counters, and leave the S&T wins for the matchups that you need raw speed (knight, elves, etc as described before). If S&T draws out their permission spells, it has done its job in matchups with heavy permission, IMO..

[J-Funk]

I did try this. But when you think about it, in this context its a cavern of souls/mayyybe bosejiu that can be countered or bolted. Doesn't add mana nor can be searched for. While 1 was alright in a test build I had with GSZ and NO, I think the stronger plan is to amass advantage to beat the counters, and leave the S&T wins for the matchups that you need raw speed (knight, elves, etc as described before). If S&T draws out their permission spells, it has done its job in matchups with heavy permission, IMO..

Yeah, that totally makes sense. I was just curious if anyone had given it a shot.

[Rock Lee]

Initial testing with TTB had me siding it in every game. Currently running a 1/1 split for MD vs SB, but the card might merit a full time MD slot. To be determined. Current testing list:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
3 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Island

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
3 [US] Show and Tell
1 [CHK] Through the Breach

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 1 [CHK] Through the Breach

Going down Vesuvas means keepable hands are significantly higher, and thus a higher land count of 27 is not required. The use of TTB as an instant Titan or keeping a persisted glen elendra are enormous.

[Darkenslight]

I'm assuming that the Volcs are there to cast both S'n'T and TtB from the same source?

[HoneyT]

This list seems boss. I like all this red coming out of the woodwork, but I can't imagine playing without fluster - even more than playing without the other blue. How's are games 2-3 against combo? Storm and omni in particular. And hows punishing fire? It's a repeat effect but do games develop where you need to be leaning on it? How easy has TtB been to reach?

Games 2 and 3 are fine. If there is more combo in your meta, you can run more hate. Trinishpere is fine too. The important part is to vary the hate. The combo decks can normally play through one type of hate, but when they have to fight through Mindbreak Traps, Thorns, and REBs it becomes much more difficult for them, buying enough time to fire off a TtB or Titan.

Punishing Fire is a house. It allows you to take back control from the Team America/Jund type decks when they have the DRS/Hymn/Wasteland/Liliana draws. It's also just an incredible engine in the metagame right now. The reach it provides is not insignificant either. Sometimes you Breach an Emrakul or miracle a large Bonfire and need to finish off the last few points of damage.

[TimHarding]

Fiddled with the Green Red, and RUG Versions. They're good! Re-tested the 2012 build, also still good lol ..

Lot's of testing to do. The non-core constant for me has been Glen Elendra.

With all this Thragtusk and TtB, I'm curious to see how you all are getting to sit on all these 5 mana cards so consistently. My avg CMC is constantly a few points lower than a lot of lists, and I couldn't imagine ticking it up .. explore is even a little rich for my blood..

This weekend I'm running some MD/SB split of 4 DRS and 4 Bonfire. #YOLO

[Davek]

Games 2 and 3 are fine. If there is more combo in your meta, you can run more hate. Trinishpere is fine too. The important part is to vary the hate. The combo decks can normally play through one type of hate, but when they have to fight through Mindbreak Traps, Thorns, and REBs it becomes much more difficult for them, buying enough time to fire off a TtB or Titan.

Punishing Fire is a house. It allows you to take back control from the Team America/Jund type decks when they have the DRS/Hymn/Wasteland/Liliana draws. It's also just an incredible engine in the metagame right now. The reach it provides is not insignificant either. Sometimes you Breach an Emrakul or miracle a large Bonfire and need to finish off the last few points of damage.

Why do you prefere running Thorns over Sphere of Resistance? we are running so few creatures that i think the malus is not so relevant for us. Sphere can ruin the day of decks like Elves and slow down considerably other creature-based decks like Maverick, DnT and Merfolks (if they do not open with Vial, of course)

[ac3eb]

With all this Thragtusk and TtB, I'm curious to see how you all are getting to sit on all these 5 mana cards so consistently. My avg CMC is constantly a few points lower than a lot of lists, and I couldn't imagine ticking it up .. explore is even a little rich for my blood..


This. It seems like the curve just keeps going higher. I'm still on the pithing needle + repeal plan since wasteland is prevalent in my meta (and most metas?) and an early waste hurts like heck. The issue I see with the R/G version is that you have problems dealing with anything that has toughness greater than 2. The hardest part for the deck, from my experience, is transitioning from the 2-3 mana "phase" to the 5-6 mana phase. Bonfire doesn't solve an early goyf for example, which can easily get 2-3 hits by itself without a way to deal with him (previously done with repeal). Granted, the deck does look awesome.

[Rock Lee]

Fiddled with the Green Red, and RUG Versions. They're good! Re-tested the 2012 build, also still good lol ..

Lot's of testing to do. The non-core constant for me has been Glen Elendra.

With all this Thragtusk and TtB, I'm curious to see how you all are getting to sit on all these 5 mana cards so consistently. My avg CMC is constantly a few points lower than a lot of lists, and I couldn't imagine ticking it up .. explore is even a little rich for my blood..

This weekend I'm running some MD/SB split of 4 DRS and 4 Bonfire. #YOLO

Are you going to Poughkeepsie? or Elmira Tim? for testing.

[Hopo]

The deck doesn't likely need any new finishers and I usually try to stay away from the spoiler hype, but this thing being unounterable, having haste and being an easily castable mana sink might be good at some point.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=145702&d=1379044853

[Lemnear]

The deck doesn't likely need any new finishers and I usually try to stay away from the spoiler hype, but this thing being unounterable, having haste and being an easily castable mana sink might be good at some point.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=145702&d=1379044853

Great Sable Stag Syndrome

[Hopo]

Great Sable Stag Syndrome

Stag is lacking 2/3 things that made me think this could be useful. And the one thing in common is uncounterability. Not the smartest comparison, I think.

[Lemnear]

Stag is lacking 2/3 things that made me think this could be useful. And the one thing in common is uncounterability. Not the smartest comparison, I think.

Uncounterable, protection from blue, green, dies to every common removal in Legacy (more than Stag because it lacks protection from black)... I think they ARE comparable

The only thing that sets this creature apart from Stag is Haste.

At the point of cmc where this creature becomes relevant it has so compete with Titan and GSZ imo

[Julian23]

Last time I checked, Abrupt Decay was still a thing.

[Hopo]

Uncounterable, protection from blue, green, dies to every common removal in Legacy (more than Stag because it lacks protection from black)... I think they ARE comparable

The only thing that sets this creature apart from Stag is Haste.

Unlike Stag, this has a relevant body in this deck. Which means it doesn't die to any red removal, which are common in legacy. Protection is irrelevant, hence I didn't list it to begin with. Of course, they are both green creatures so there's that.



At the point of cmc where this creature becomes relevant it has so compete with Titan and GSZ imo

Titan not so much I think, but Zenith is a valid point. If it had any sort of (relevant) evasion, it would basically be an uncounterable X-spell with defensive capabilities attached. Now that people seem to be toying around with Bonfire, it's not that far fetched to look deeper into this "killing by inflicting damage" route.

Like I said, the deck hardly needs anymore finishers but outside standard, this is one of the few decks that could get anything out of this. Probably not in any of it's current iterations, but no need to discard the idea just because Wotc printed a bad creature sometime earlier.

[Lemnear]

Last time I checked, Swords to Plowshares and Gaddock Teeg were still a thing.

fixed

[Davek]

I think that Hydra is a stinker. If it had flash instead of haste it could maybe worth a test for some useful combat tricks, but as it is... When your BUG opponents will see this card they'll say " fine, i finally have a target for this abrupt decay that was rotting in my hand"... and that's all.

[Hopo]

fixed

I agree that creatures die to removal. Teeg I don't get.

[Julian23]

I agree that creatures die to removal. Teeg I don't get.

It's not creatures dying to removal. It's expensive creatures dying to removal without doing anything; no EtB triggers, no use in the graveyard, just big and dumb. Tarmogoyf is a noteworthy exception as you will most of the time at least be trading similar amounts of mana. Trading your entire mid-/lategame turn against a 1 or 2 mana spell out of your opponent is a very bad trade tempowise and provides a huge advantage to your opponent. Note how Titan is different in the way that you at least get big use out of his EtB trigger. On top of that, the Hydra doesn't even have Trample...I just don't see this card going anywhere.

[Lemnear]

Ok, Teeg only prevents non-creature x-spells.

[Hopo]

It's not creatures dying to removal. It's expensive creatures dying to removal without doing anything; no EtB triggers, no use in the graveyard, just big and dumb. Tarmogoyf is a noteworthy exception as you will most of the time at least be trading similar amounts of mana. Trading your entire mid-/lategame turn against a 1 or 2 mana spell out of your opponent is a very bad trade tempowise and provides a huge advantage to your opponent. Note how Titan is different in the way that you at least get big use out of his EtB trigger. On top of that, the Hydra doesn't even have Trample...I just don't see this card going anywhere.

Hydra has the problem of not having evasion. Haste is better than nothing but it sure is no etb-trigger.

All I'm saying is that at some point or in some specific meta this could be an option. The biggest problem I see is that it doesn't add to the inevitability and only smacks face. Since people are talking about x-spells here and the spoiler season is on, this sort of was a mandatory discussion to be had.

[HoneyT]

Why do you prefere running Thorns over Sphere of Resistance? we are running so few creatures that i think the malus is not so relevant for us. Sphere can ruin the day of decks like Elves and slow down considerably other creature-based decks like Maverick, DnT and Merfolks (if they do not open with Vial, of course)

Because we're not a prison deck. I wouldn't board in Spheres for those matchups (except Elves). Punishing Fires and Bonfires handle those decks and with the mana denial package in Mav, DnT, and Fish, I want to be able to TtB or resolve Titan ASAP.

Also, the X-green dude is garbage. Like total garbage. There is no point on the mana curve where you would want to cast that guy over any other spell in the deck.

[Rock Lee]

Also, the X-green dude is garbage. Like total garbage. There is no point on the mana curve where you would want to cast that guy over any other spell in the deck.

Eh. I wouldn't be so quick to judge. I think the greatest weakness of the R/G version of the deck is a general weakness to counterspells. You don't have high advantage spells to pressure/force counters. One way of addressing this is running uncounterable spells. I ran abrupt decay specifically for this purpose for awhile.

I personally think the R/G version is significantly weaker than the R/U/G version, but Punishing fire does shore up most of the weaknesses of the hydra.

Regarding hydra being useful in a R/U/G version, I strongly doubt that would happen unless merfolk/sea stompy completely breaks away, and even then Skylasher seems better.

[HoneyT]

Eh. I wouldn't be so quick to judge. I think the greatest weakness of the R/G version of the deck is a general weakness to counterspells. You don't have high advantage spells to pressure/force counters. One way of addressing this is running uncounterable spells. I ran abrupt decay specifically for this purpose for awhile.

I personally think the R/G version is significantly weaker than the R/U/G version, but Punishing fire does shore up most of the weaknesses of the hydra.

Regarding hydra being useful in a R/U/G version, I strongly doubt that would happen unless merfolk/sea stompy completely breaks away, and even then Skylasher seems better.

I would rather play a tutorable Cavern of Souls or Boseiju as opposed to filling my deck with a card that doesn't do anything. It will resolve. That's it. It will get blocked or killed. If I wanted an uncounterable X spell I would play Banefire.

[Rock Lee]

I would rather play a tutorable Cavern of Souls or Boseiju as opposed to filling my deck with a card that doesn't do anything. It will resolve. That's it. It will get blocked or killed. If I wanted an uncounterable X spell I would play Banefire.

Except the R/G version has issues with goyf and batterskull. While not a good answer, this is that + maga. It also promotes running sweepers. Don't get me wrong. I'm not running it. It is only "ok" in what I consider a sub-par list. But to completely dismiss it is somewhat daft.

[ph88]

hey everyone. suuuuper long time lurker, but first time poster. i finally decided to make an account to contribute to this awesome thread you guys have going on. i'm really grateful to the regular contributors for developing such a killer deck.

i was rocking the regular UG post with trinket mages for a while, but finally decided to try-out the more creature-heavy DRS/thragtusk build a couple nights ago at a local tournament. this was my first time playing brainstorms or DRS in the deck. i loved the brainstorms, but absolutely hated the DRS. with that said, i really like the new looks of the RUG-post decks with bonfire and TtB.

so that i can actually contribute something of substance in my first post, i wrote a tournament report. as i said, my list was a pretty standard DRS/brainstorm build with 1x candelabra main, 1x gsz, 1x thragtusk and no glen elendra or oracle of mul daya. feedback or questions would be much appreciated.

-----------------------

round 1 -- elves! -- 1 - 1 - 1

game 1 -- i mull to 6 and he keeps his opening 7. he leads with a llanowar and i lead with brainstorm into fetch to do some quality hand sculpting. i'm able to keep making my land drops while he starts vomiting out elves. i pop an oblivion ring to clear out the field, but he's soon back in action. he gets out an ezuri, which forces me to rotate for a glacial chasm to buy some more time. he green sun's for a terastodon and kills the chasm and 2x cloudposts. i die to ezuri.

game 2 -- i side in a tabernacle among other things. again, he starts puking out elves very, very quickly. two brainstorms and a fetch find me a show and tell along with a primeval titan, so i show in the titan. he shows a priest of titania. the titan gets my chasm to buy me a few turns, but he green sun's zeniths for a terastodon, which gets the chasm. i drop a tabernacle, which slows him down a little bit, and primeval swings into terastodon to get two more posts. i finally have the right lands to assemble the infinite-turn emrakul/karakas combo while he has lethal on board. fortunately, he never gets another turn. time gets called right after i kill him.

round 2 -- affinity -- 2 - 1 - 0

game 1 -- he opens with a powerful, but not particularly fast hand. the turn before he would have swung for a lot, i land a chasm with a pretty big life buffer. i hardcast a primeval, which finds me eye of ugin. the turn chasm would kill me i don't pay the life so chasm gets binned, freeing up primeval to attack. primeval finds two posts which gives me just enough mana to assemble the infinite turns emmy/karakas combo.

game 2 -- he gets a fast plating out and quickly beats me down to 11. i find a chasm and drop it, but i have to blow a vesuva making another chasm so i don't die to cumulative upkeep. then i have to vesuva the vesuva that was copying chasm a couple turns later. the game went on for quite a while, but i was never really in it, since i was wasting all my resources on simply staying alive.

game 3 -- he gets another really fast start (3 memnite opener) and by turn 2 he is down to one card in hand. on turn 3 he comes in for lethal, but i cast rebuild during his attack phase. he recovers surprisingly well from the rebuild thanks to those 3 memnites, however. no matter -- by this point i've seen enough cards with top/brainstorm/fetches to dig-up my tabernacle, which wrecks him on his upkeep. soon i show in a primeval and after one attack step, i've assembled enough mana to hardcast emmy.

round 3 -- 4 color (!) maverick -- 0 - 2 - 0

game 1 -- he opens with a slow hand, however he has a scryb ranger, gaddock teeg and knight within the first 4 or 5 turns. teeg turns off the repeal and green sun zenith in my hand, which really hurts. the knight/scryb ranger combo wastes two of my posts in one turn. my opponent has also had a flipped garruk relentless for a few turns at this point and is popping out wolf tokens. although i manage to show in a primeval titan, he dies to a deathtouch wolf the first time he attacks. (no point in keeping him up for blocks as my opponent has a mom pro-greening his KOTR every turn). i have a decent manabase rebuilt after two primeval triggers, but it's not quite enough to get a fatty down in time and i die.

game 2 -- he goes for a first turn green sun's for zero getting dryad arbor. i brainstorm my first turn, then repeal his arbor after i untap. feels good. he starts using knight to waste me while beating down with a qasali pridgemage wearing a sword of feast and famine. a tabernacle significantly slows him down, but the knight is still doing work and the pridgemage is still beating down. i find an ensnaring bridge, but he has exactly enough mana to kill the bridge with the pridgemage, pay knight's upkeep from tabernacle, move the sword to the knight, and get in for exactly lethal. if i'd have had only one more point of life, i could have dropped a primeval who could have netted me a ton of life off of glimmerposts. from there, i could have easily turned the game around, but i wasn't meant to be.

matches: 1 - 1 - 1
games: 3 - 4 - 1

props:
tabernacle -- unimpressive against elves, but devastating in my other two rounds. i can't imagine cutting 1x from my sideboard, and might even move it to the main for my local meta (lots of creature-heavy fair decks).

glacial chasm -- often times ends up just prolonging my inevitable death, but sometimes it's the MVP.

brainstorm -- there's a reason it's referred to as the best card in legacy.

slops:
DRS -- holy crap he was terrible. a birds of paradise would have been better 9 times out of 10.

[somethingdotdotdot]

So I'm not sure why you guys all just dismissed a white splash so quickly. I personally feel that terminus/stp is definitely stronger than repeal/bonfire. Bonfire is nice in that it can do a one-sided sweep against both creatures and walkers, but its another card that needs you to ramp a fair bit before getting any real value out of it. You'll usually need at least 2R to sweep deathrites/delvers, which is rather difficult when trying to play around daze/pierce/wastelands versus the tempo decks. Terminus only costs W to miracle and will deal with goyf and knight. It single-handedly can win the game versus a maverick opponent for the low low cost of W. White also brings swords to plowshares, which solves a lot of the problems that the red splash faces: goyf, bskull, and kotr. I haven't had that much trouble with planeswalkers with this deck since it ends the game in a combo fashion that negates a lot of the card advantage that the walkers give your opponents.

White also gives you a lot more sideboarding options versus various combo decks. You can just load up on hatebears with 4-6 counters so that you become a midrange deck with a clock. Most combo decks will have fits playing through a combination of meddling mage/ethersworn canonist/thalia/revoker. This is my current list that I've been tweaking. Unsure about the land composition and whether or not chasm is still necessary with all of the removal. Also considering -1 tundra, +1 savannah

Creatures (7)
4x Primeval Titan
1x Emrakul
1x Kozilek
1x Ulamog

Spells (25)
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
3x Expedition Map
4x Crop Rotation
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Terminus
3x Show and Tell

Mana Lands (24)
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
4x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
2x Savannah
1x Island
4x Flooded Strand
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Karakas

"Spell" Lands (5)
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Glacial Chasm
2x Vesuva


Preliminary sb looks like this so far:
2x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flusterstorm
2x Krosan Grip
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

[ph88]

29 lands and only 6 potential cloudposts (cloudpost + vesuva) seems like a poor ratio. it feels like this deck is going to have a hard time generating the huge amounts of mana we want in the late game. do you really need all those colored sources instead of more posts??

[somethingdotdotdot]

It hasn't been a huge problem so far. When i was testing with more vesuva's, the manabase was super shaky and I was often color screwed by a wasteland+stifle. As is, the deck is a lot more capable of grinding out the game versus the aggro decks so you have the breathing room to just drop land, go. It feels a little more like a miracles deck that has the titans/posts there for inevitability.

[TimHarding]

hey everyone. suuuuper long time lurker, but first time poster. i finally decided to make an account to contribute to this awesome thread you guys have going on. i'm really grateful to the regular contributors for developing such a killer deck.

i was rocking the regular UG post with trinket mages for a while, but finally decided to try-out the more creature-heavy DRS/thragtusk build a couple nights ago at a local tournament. this was my first time playing brainstorms or DRS in the deck. i loved the brainstorms, but absolutely hated the DRS. with that said, i really like the new looks of the RUG-post decks with bonfire and TtB.

Welcome! Thanks for the tourney report.

In defense of DRS, he wasn't brought into my list to fight any of the matchups you had faced with him (bonfire would toast those decks tho lol). He was mostly a response to tempo, with a nice plus side to fighting random yard decks too. I still find him to be very decent. Though you cannot be enticed to keep hands which RELY on him as a bird of paradise - sounds counter intuitive, but you should rely on your basics and colored sources, and he will assist and draw attention. That being said, he is still on the fence each time I sleeve up and very dependent on the meta. But in a tempo and combo heavy format, I'm still into DRS. But, as seen in this thread, many options are available and are extremely different angles at shoring up whatever holes in the meta are there.

The rUG lists seem pretty strong, but high variance. 3 Bonfires seems like too much for me.. But man some of the bonfire lines are SICK, which is a lot to say in a deck that loops tutorable emerakuls..

[TimHarding]

White also gives you a lot more sideboarding options versus various combo decks. You can just load up on hatebears with 4-6 counters so that you become a midrange deck with a clock. Most combo decks will have fits playing through a combination of meddling mage/ethersworn canonist/thalia/revoker. This is my current list that I've been tweaking. Unsure about the land composition and whether or not chasm is still necessary with all of the removal. Also considering -1 tundra, +1 savannah

This. I've always felt that this deck was missing solid permanent based hate. As HoneyT said a few posts before that hydra silliness, varying the hate is key (true across legacy). Venser is a key step in that direction, being a nice reaction/trump to combo that isn't just a counterspell, but hate bears represent a completely different hurdle for combo to overcome. I put meddling mages, and a few white duals in a few times because its such a boss against omni - but never ended up committing (mana is tough). I really like the direction of the side board in this context.

Actually I like the whole list. Though all these miracles are risky because we have to wonder how many cards we can add before the average starting hand is a virtual mull to six.. there are already too many, and our manipulation already carries a very heavy load.

I still give the edge to repeal over StP. Bonus manipulation, very very many relevant permanents to bounce, cute tricks, and replacing itself are all worth the 1 or 2 mana extra.

[somethingdotdotdot]

To be honest, I've never been a huge fan of repeal. Its a nice tempo play to bounce a permanent, but it just doesn't do enough versus goyf or kotr. I can't think of too many non creature permanents that are commonly played that require bouncing to go off. Ensnaring bridge and humility are the only two that come to mind and they're relatively rare sb cards. Also, without candelabra, the only cute trick I can see with repeal is to bounce sensei top with its draw ability on the stack.

As for cards to open with, I haven't really been too impressed with kozilek lately so he might get the axe. Ulamog needs to stay to deal with random permanents. That leaves 6 creatures, 3 terminus, and 3 lands (chasm, bog, and eye) as cards you don't want to see in your starting 7. Terminus isn't too bad since you can always brainstorm it into a wrath; the titans arent too bad because there's always show and tell; eye and bog are necessary evils. The chasm might get the axe just because I'm running so much removal as well as the fact that drs just kinna laughs at it.

[Rock Lee]

Got 3rd at Poughkeepsie yesterday with a list very similar to my current running list, which is as follows:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
3 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
3 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [ZEN] Island (8)
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [US] Show and Tell

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 1 [US] Show and Tell


Only differences were -1 Glacial Chasm, +1 Show and Tell on the main, and 2x Through the Breach (which I never sided in despite playing against a large array of decks)

This list only has so much merit, as come Tharos this deck will become SwanSong orgy and flipped on its head design-wise.

[Havoc]

Got 3rd at Poughkeepsie yesterday with a list very similar to my current running list, which is as follows:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
3 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
3 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [ZEN] Island (8)
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [US] Show and Tell

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 1 [US] Show and Tell


Only differences were -1 Glacial Chasm, +1 Show and Tell on the main, and 2x Through the Breach (which I never sided in despite playing against a large array of decks)

This list only has so much merit, as come Tharos this deck will become SwanSong orgy and flipped on its head design-wise.

Can i ask other than swan song what things are you considering from theros.

[caggii]

Got second yesterday at a 20 something person event lost in the finals to mud he just had the nuts t1 bloodmoon game 1 followed by beaters and game 2 win on turn 4. Bonfire was an mvp wrathing boards and ending games in multiple matchs. I never had a chance to cast through the breach as I only ever saw it when I was already hardcasting eldrazi would have been able to steal the game 2 in the finals if I had gotten a 5th turn in the finals as I had emrakul and that in my hand but it wasnt meant to be. The oracle was also really good especially vs shardless letting me ramp out of a clump of lands and get enough of a presence to steal I win I wouldnt have gotten with out it.
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
3 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
2 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Island

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [zen] oracle of mul daya

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
2 [chk] through the breach

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 3 red elemental blast
SB: 1 tabernacle at pendrell vale

[TimHarding]

Call me a hipster but I'm going back to straight UG. Like January's list, with Swan Song and Glen Elendra. Meat and potatoes.

[ph88]

@somethingdotdotdot and @TimHarding:

thanks for the responses, guys! if i can find terminuses i'm gonna try swapping out the DRS's for that bant colored tech and see where it gets me at a local tournament tomorrow.

i don't have volc islands, but i'd love to try out that RUG list. congrats to all you guys that have been placing well with it.

[Rock Lee]

Call me a hipster but I'm going back to straight UG. Like January's list, with Swan Song and Glen Elendra. Meat and potatoes.

I'm guessing your W/U/G testing didn't go well? I heard you stomped someone at Torrington at least with it. thoughts? I've always considered W weak, but I'm intrigued at your opinion having played it.

[HammafistRoob]

What's your opinion on Carpet of Flowers? Seems ridiculous in the blue infested meta.

[Rock Lee]

What's your opinion on Carpet of Flowers? Seems ridiculous in the blue infested meta.

Sure, but doesn't solve your problem matchups.

[That nice guy]

Only differences were -1 Glacial Chasm, +1 Show and Tell on the main, and 2x Through the Breach (which I never sided in despite playing against a large array of decks)

This list only has so much merit, as come Tharos this deck will become SwanSong orgy and flipped on its head design-wise.

What did you think about not having Chasm?

Why don't you think you need Show anymore? Against certain matches I like having the MUST counter.

How different is it really going to be?

[Rock Lee]

What did you think about not having Chasm?

Why don't you think you need Show anymore? Against certain matches I like having the MUST counter.

How different is it really going to be?

There is a big difference between 1 show and tell and 0. I am not an advocate of zero-shows at all. I am however testing zero chasm. Bonfire has shored up most of the reasons I need the chasm at all, and as a response to lower show count, I need to show in a titan to get chasm less to stablize. Still being tested though.

[Blastoderm]

Sorry for kind of "intruding" on everyone's discussion. But I've been testing a mono green cloudpost deck very similar to the one from Modern before bannings. I play it for budget reasons as I do not have tropicals, candelabra or show and tell. I was hoping to get some feedback. I've played it three times at my LGS weekly legacy and have gone 4-0, 3-1 and 2-2. I usually easily win against miracles, maverick, and delver. I'm pretty bad vs combo but I seem to have a good matchup against Omnitell (trinisphere and grip destroy this deck). Here's my list:

4 cloudpost
4 vesuva
4 glimmerpost
1 eye of ugin
1 glacial chasm
11 forest
1 dryad arbor

4 overgrown battlement
4 wall of roots
1 emrakul
1 ulamog
4 primeval titan

4 green sun's zenith
3 sylvan scrying
4 crop rotation
4 expedition map
3 sensei's divining top
2 oblivion stone

SB:

3 Krosan Grip
4 Trinisphere
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 bojuka bog


The walls have been a love hate relationship. In legacy I feel they're underpowered but they've been helping out so much by giving green mana, accelerating me when people wasteland my cloudposts early game, and blocking early goyfs, mongeese, lackeys, etc.

Some cards I'm considering are wurmcoil engine, karn liberated, all is dust and maybe finding room for the full playset of oblivion stone. I always see 4 sensei's top in most lists. Is it important to stick with 4? I'd appreciate any help!

Thanks!

[Rock Lee]

Blastoderm, I know there are several people who try to make this deck work on a budget, but this thread is devoted to the optimal list irrespective of cost. I have played a mono-green version in the past, specifically during mental-misstep days, where I needed an excessive amount of cmc 1's to allow crop rotation to resolve through Mental Misstep. If such a meta does return, I would reconsider mono-green, but blue offers far too much against problematic matchups. Additionally, mono-green is greatly assisted by candelabras. When I ran mono-green I ran 4 candelabra automatically.

Some people to Private Message if you prefer mono-green versions, are Anusien or that forum troll Borat. They both play mono green, unsuccessfully I'll mention, but they play it.

[Blastoderm]

Blastoderm, I know there are several people who try to make this deck work on a budget, but this thread is devoted to the optimal list irrespective of cost. I have played a mono-green version in the past, specifically during mental-misstep days, where I needed an excessive amount of cmc 1's to allow crop rotation to resolve through Mental Misstep. If such a meta does return, I would reconsider mono-green, but blue offers far too much against problematic matchups. Additionally, mono-green is greatly assisted by candelabras. When I ran mono-green I ran 4 candelabra automatically.

Some people to Private Message if you prefer mono-green versions, are Anusien or that forum troll Borat. They both play mono green, unsuccessfully I'll mention, but they play it.

Thank you! I'll try to get a thread going in the budget forum.

[somethingdotdotdot]

After some more testing with the bant shell, I'm currently at this list. Wondering if you guys had any feedback. It's been doing pretty well versus anything using delver, but obviously will still lose to t1 delver -> t2 flip, stifle, force, pierce, waste hands if you dont see more than 2 removal spells. I'm a bit concerned about the combo matchup, but the current board has been favorable versus omni decks.

Creatures (6)
4x Primeval Titan
2x Emrakul

Spells (27)
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
3x Expedition Map
4x Crop Rotation
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Terminus
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Show and Tell

Mana Lands (24)
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
2x Savannah
1x Island
4x Flooded Strand
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Karakas
1x Academy Ruins

"Spell" Lands (4)
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Eye of Ugin
2x Vesuva

SB (15):
2x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Meddling Mage
2x Venser, Shaper Savant
4x Flusterstorm
4x Force of Will

Testing out a singleton academy ruins for the previous glacial chasm slot. It seems to be useful considering it can be tutored for and allows me to get the ee lock or map each turn to get post up and running easily.

[Rock Lee]

Got 3rd at my weekly event, losing to my teammate who only plays decks that beat me exclusively. Even then, I had the match just did some bad statistical breakdowns.

Matchups:
Dragon Stompy
Jund
Stoneforge Bant
Sneak and Snow

List:
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
2 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [ZEN] Island (8)
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
2 [US] Show and Tell
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast

[TimHarding]

Sorry for kind of "intruding" on everyone's discussion. But I've been testing a mono green cloudpost deck very similar to the one from Modern before bannings. I play it for budget reasons as I do not have tropicals, candelabra or show and tell. I was hoping to get some feedback. I've played it three times at my LGS weekly legacy and have gone 4-0, 3-1 and 2-2. I usually easily win against miracles, maverick, and delver. I'm pretty bad vs combo but I seem to have a good matchup against Omnitell (trinisphere and grip destroy this deck). Here's my list:

4 cloudpost
4 vesuva
4 glimmerpost
1 eye of ugin
1 glacial chasm
11 forest
1 dryad arbor

4 overgrown battlement
4 wall of roots
1 emrakul
1 ulamog
4 primeval titan

4 green sun's zenith
3 sylvan scrying
4 crop rotation
4 expedition map
3 sensei's divining top
2 oblivion stone

SB:

3 Krosan Grip
4 Trinisphere
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 bojuka bog


The walls have been a love hate relationship. In legacy I feel they're underpowered but they've been helping out so much by giving green mana, accelerating me when people wasteland my cloudposts early game, and blocking early goyfs, mongeese, lackeys, etc.

Some cards I'm considering are wurmcoil engine, karn liberated, all is dust and maybe finding room for the full playset of oblivion stone. I always see 4 sensei's top in most lists. Is it important to stick with 4? I'd appreciate any help!

Thanks!

Hey man, glad to see you jamming post. While the consensus on this thread has been to add blue for problem matchups and some power, I have a few suggestions.

I'd drop the walls for explores and oracle of mul daya. The walls are good in the modern format, but you need more advantage fuel. Explore and mul daya do this very well. DRS is a consideration here too, for reasons I've said earlier, but still I'd go for oracle and explore.

Keep 4 tops. Forever. 4 o stone is something I can get behind too.

Mindbreak trap in the board over crypt (in most metas)

And while I think wurmcoil is sick I prefer to keep the Cmc down.

If you're not into going blue I'd consider the GR list like 5 pages ago on this thread with punishing fire, Bon fire and TtB. Could really get the deck to the next level. In my experience mono G really really needs candles to be aggressive enough. (Could try magus of tabernacle?) Most of us play this deck more control.

Otherwise list looks solid hope it helps

[TimHarding]

I'm guessing your W/U/G testing didn't go well? I heard you stomped someone at Torrington at least with it. thoughts? I've always considered W weak, but I'm intrigued at your opinion having played it.

Although the white cards are very powerful, and the sideboard gains a new angle with that color, it didn't work out in what I tested (second time considering terminus). My real issue is the opening seven, adding miracles (bonfire is also an offender, though the lesser) gives a virtual guaranteed card you'd rather not have in your opening 7, which I think is risky deck design. I feel like I have no business ballooning my >3 cmc cost to 11+, in the legacy format. This isn't a hypergenesis deck. Yes I know you can miracle it, but I want my sculpting to end in a titan, not a wrath. Especially floating a terminus when I should be progressing my game plan.

A lot of these swingy maindeck hatebombs seem lazy to me. Repeal and chasm solve 80% of the problems we are trying to nuke with miracles and the like, and they go beyond that. Let's not forget we are one of the privilaged decks that gets to land tutor, for chasm and tabernacle for amazing defense. Bonfire (while I am currently not playing it), at least serves as an alt win condition, and is at least semi-relevant from the hand. Rock Lee's 4 of seems crazy to me, but then again each match I saw on tuesday he was abusing it, so ... it'll be on deck when I feel my o-stones aren't cutting it (getting decayed too much), but that hasn't been the case.

Swan song is going to REALLY help our worst matchups, and give us back some free slots for aggro defense, which in my eyes promotes playing a more redundant/resource resilient UG deck.

[Hopo]

A lot of these swingy maindeck hatebombs seem lazy to me. Repeal and chasm solve 80% of the problems we are trying to nuke with miracles and the like, and they go beyond that.

This is just how I feel, but add Oblivion Stone in there as well as a solution. I also didn't get anything special out of Deathrite Shaman. This deck shouldn't care about Lightning bolts or Disfigures.
I'd love to test with Bonfire, though, but as long as I need to play MD Needles, there's no room for miracles and Brainstorms.

[Davek]

I totally agree with what Tim said, I've tested Bonfire lately and didn't find it so appealing.... yes, it's fun when you bonfire your opponent for 35 or so dmg, but i find it a quite fragile defensive option and another card that can be hit badly by Stifle and will lie in your hand forever if you don't have a BS to put it back on top. So i've went back to a plain U/G build, and with the rising of decks like Maverick, goblins and expecially Sneak/Show i've come back to main Pithing Needles... and i have to say i love them! This is my current list, which i find well-balanced. It takes a bit of the most recent builds added into the hystorical shell of this deck:

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin

4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Thragtusk
1 Trinket Mage

1 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Show and Tell
1 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Crop Rotation
3 Brainstorm
3 Repeal

SB

1 Thragtusk
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Glen Elendra Archmage

I've lately had the occasion to test on cockatrice only, so i may be wrong, but i have to say that it feels a good list for me. Having 2 different basics to tutor really shores up your blood moon matchups, and drawing your single Zenith means you can use it to get the creature you need most in that particular game state. Also, maindecked Pithing Needles can ruin the day of your Sneak and show opponents, because you're basicly shutting down all their ways to win, (with a needle sticked in play calling sneak attack, their last winning condition is a well timed through the breach or a hightly risky show and tell)
Let me know what you think =)

[Darkenslight]

Davek - I think you change the Needles for the upcoming Swan Song, as that has just as much effect on the SaS wincons: it hard-counters both the Show and the Sneak parts of the deck. I think it warrants some testing, though Needles definitely need to be somewhere in the 75.

[J-Funk]

God, I can't wait to maindeck Swan Song. It's going to be awesome.


Davek - I think you change the Needles for the upcoming Swan Song, as that has just as much effect on the SaS wincons: it hard-counters both the Show and the Sneak parts of the deck. I think it warrants some testing, though Needles definitely need to be somewhere in the 75.

[Davek]

Honestly i'm not sure i want to main-deck Swan Song. Don't get me wrong, i think it's awesome (i've already purchased a full set of it) but i'd rather be playing maindeck Spell pierces. Sure, it will be awesome while we're facing Sneak and Show decks, but what about tempo-decks? Do you really want to counter one of their non-creature spells and giving them an additional and evasive beater? Most of the times I think not. Plus it absolutely does nothing against decks that are on the rise atm, like maverick and goblins. It will be a great sb addition (maybe lowering fow and glen elendra counts) but i'm not sold of maindecking it.

[Monkey_Island]

Hi all!

I am currently running a list close to Davek's one. The differences are -1 Oracle of Mul Daya, -1 Trinket Mage, -1 Green Sun's Zenith -3 Brainstorm +2 Expedition Map +2 Oblivion Stone +1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale +1 Thragtusk.
I tried 2 Oracle of Mul Daya (in the Thragtusk slots) which were quite good but so far I prefer the Thragtusk.


Also I see a lot of lists without The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale... Don't you guys never miss it? I think it's a meta-call but in mine it has been a boss against D&T, Elves especially in addition to the maindecks Pithing Needle to lock cards like Vial, Symbiote etc...

I will take this list to a local tournament next week in order to test it in real conditions because I am intending to go to the next BOM in Paris!

[TimHarding]

Hi all!

I am currently running a list close to Davek's one. The differences are -1 Oracle of Mul Daya, -1 Trinket Mage, -1 Green Sun's Zenith -3 Brainstorm +2 Expedition Map +2 Oblivion Stone +1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale +1 Thragtusk.
I tried 2 Oracle of Mul Daya (in the Thragtusk slots) which were quite good but so far I prefer the Thragtusk.


Also I see a lot of lists without The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale... Don't you guys never miss it? I think it's a meta-call but in mine it has been a boss against D&T, Elves especially in addition to the maindecks Pithing Needle to lock cards like Vial, Symbiote etc...

I will take this list to a local tournament next week in order to test it in real conditions because I am intending to go to the next BOM in Paris!

Good Luck!

Yeah I have been missing the tabernacle, and I do agree that it is better when paired with needles. Right now I'm moving toward playing them both with seeing more non blue decks around.. Glen elendra has been in my tusk spot and it basically is just a tusk that can counter stuff, it's boss

[TimHarding]

Honestly i'm not sure i want to main-deck Swan Song. Don't get me wrong, i think it's awesome (i've already purchased a full set of it) but i'd rather be playing maindeck Spell pierces. Sure, it will be awesome while we're facing Sneak and Show decks, but what about tempo-decks? Do you really want to counter one of their non-creature spells and giving them an additional and evasive beater? Most of the times I think not. Plus it absolutely does nothing against decks that are on the rise atm, like maverick and goblins. It will be a great sb addition (maybe lowering fow and glen elendra counts) but i'm not sold of maindecking it.

Yeah agreed. I just did a direct swap with fow. They'll be sided in the exact same situations. Funny to think that 1 of fow might provide the right mixture. Caution to make sure everyone has appropriate island density to rely on up to 8 counters that cost a blue mana. This jeopardizes my beloved basic forest.

[TimHarding]

Rock Lee and I started to debate the vesuva count. For those of you going to as low as 2, what has your experience been? There's a lot that seems to factor into this...

[bizdoin]

Rock Lee and I started to debate the vesuva count. For those of you going to as low as 2, what has your experience been? There's a lot that seems to factor into this...

2 is perfect

[Davek]

Why are you going as low as 2? And what are you cutting them for?

[bizdoin]

4 vesuva is not strictly necessary

[203995014]

Hello Turbo Eldrazi players, I am a new 12-post player and am really enjoying this deck. However, there are some problems I am having with this deck that I am hoping to address soon, so if this forum could kindly lend a hand, that would be very much appreciated. This is my current decklist BTW. (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-post-legacy-2/)

1: How do 12-post player play around Chalice of the Void at 1? Repeal doesn't work against it and most of the cards in the deck are CMC1. Do they just live with it or do people put cards in the deck to do something about it?

2: When is the correct time to play Crop Rotation? I've run into so many counterspell traps and it's caused me to get set back and sometimes lose so many times.

3: Does this deck just auto-concede to MUD decks or is there something 12-post players can do about it?

[zathe922]

Hello Turbo Eldrazi players, I am a new 12-post player and am really enjoying this deck. However, there are some problems I am having with this deck that I am hoping to address soon, so if this forum could kindly lend a hand, that would be very much appreciated. This is my current decklist BTW. (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-post-legacy-2/)

1: How do 12-post player play around Chalice of the Void at 1? Repeal doesn't work against it and most of the cards in the deck are CMC1. Do they just live with it or do people put cards in the deck to do something about it?

2: When is the correct time to play Crop Rotation? I've run into so many counterspell traps and it's caused me to get set back and sometimes lose so many times.

3: Does this deck just auto-concede to MUD decks or is there something 12-post players can do about it?

1. If chalice decks are big in your meta, oblivion stone is usually a very effective card.

2. Kind of depends on what deck you are facing, but against decks with lots of counters you should be playing it defensively or when it doesn't matter if you lose a land.

3. No, but its one of the difficult matchups, as i mentioned, oblivion stone wrecks these decks unless they manage to get a quick kill.

[203995014]

1. If chalice decks are big in your meta, oblivion stone is usually a very effective card.

2. Kind of depends on what deck you are facing, but against decks with lots of counters you should be playing it defensively or when it doesn't matter if you lose a land.

3. No, but its one of the difficult matchups, as i mentioned, oblivion stone wrecks these decks unless they manage to get a quick kill.

So how should I mainboard and sideboard in an unknown meta or in a place like Cockatrice? Would I put cards in the sideboard or mainboard to deal with Chalice in an unknown meta?

[Rock Lee]

Hello Turbo Eldrazi players, I am a new 12-post player and am really enjoying this deck. However, there are some problems I am having with this deck that I am hoping to address soon, so if this forum could kindly lend a hand, that would be very much appreciated. This is my current decklist BTW. (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-post-legacy-2/)

1: How do 12-post player play around Chalice of the Void at 1? Repeal doesn't work against it and most of the cards in the deck are CMC1. Do they just live with it or do people put cards in the deck to do something about it?

2: When is the correct time to play Crop Rotation? I've run into so many counterspell traps and it's caused me to get set back and sometimes lose so many times.

3: Does this deck just auto-concede to MUD decks or is there something 12-post players can do about it?

1. Show and Tell is your best play against Chalice @ 1 decks, which lose to anything put in. ALso, playing your map/top before chalice is huge. All together though, Chalice beats you. There aren't supposed to be good cards for it. My teammate who only builds decks that beat me, includes chalice in nearly every deck. He even ran goblins with chalice for 1 main against me.

2. The entire finesse of the deck is not playing Crop rotation into counters. The "best" time is in response to a wasteland, but often the card can be used aggressively to facilitate quick conversions of stable mana into eldrazi. Sometimes you want to draw out their counters with other threats that aren't threatening (I frequently cast show and tell against rug with no threats in hand simply to burn counters, and I ALWAYS ask if my tops resolve while trying to look pathetic while I have another one in hand).

3. Mud is a terrible matchup, and outside of Show and tell, your main plan is side in force of will, which are being shaved for more important counters. Of all the bad matchups, MUD is by far the worst. Thankfully, it is a terrible meta call at the moment.

Despite all this, if you wish to warp your other matchups and have a chance against MUD, include 3-4 seal of primordium in your sideboard and you're set.

[TimHarding]

Ran this tonight at my weekly legacy tourney. I fell to heavy hymn to tourach, and the mirror against Rock Lee. Beat UWR delver, and Drew Levin's new PW Control Nic Fit [which is sick]. Mediocre night but this has been testing very well and has X-0'd a different weekly legacy a few times now. I don't feel like there are any giant holes [except MUD, as said before, lol]

I've been pushing the more 'conservative approach'. Meaning no 3 color, and narrow(ish) 1-ofs. I think with swan song around, finally giving us reliable game against ancient tomb combo decks (which it really does help), it allows us to un-warp the deck. I said a handful of posts ago that I was hitting up 2012 lists, and I really feel like they're well positioned these days. Straight pile of UG consistency. This has been very well rounded for me.

List:

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bajouka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm

4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
3 Show and Tell
3 Repeal
3 Oblivion Stone
3 Pithing Needle

SB:
4 Flusterstorm
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Swansong
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Show and Tell
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Land Base: Besides being a sigh of relief from all of the underground seas and single basics I had messed with, I feel like it is very well balanced. 2 island to fully support swansong and flusterstorm. 3 basics total. 26 land which is made possible by a full 4 maps, and added repeal draw. 3 Vesuva has felt pretty good - I'm happy with how often I have islands early instead of often awkwardly copying their fetch. I still think 2 is too low, given that its one of the most powerful effects in the deck and a lot of the graveyard plan in our deck hinges around copying bog reliably.

No Kozilek: I realized that for 10 mana, an expedition map = eldrazi [map>activate>eye>activate], and more often than a draw four (while sometimes clutch), I want this path. Turned a card I hate seeing in my hand into a card that will make me keep a 1 spell hand. Switch has been great. Plus Map is very well positioned now.

Needle: I think needle is in a prime position right now, across all legacy. I've actually been using it to time walk them more than naming wasteland - though that luxury is getting a very warm welcome home. The card hits soo much.

Sideboard: Still very focused on combo, show and tell variants specifically. 8 early counters always buys enough time to set up a glen elendra, or trap under top. 13 counters is a LOT. Fits very well. The tabernacle has been great too. Its the first sideboard I have actually been comfortable with across the board.

----

Overall, the meat and potatoes approach has been strong, and I don't see any gaping hole that has become an emergency.

I saw Rock Lee back on trinket mage tn, and I agree that that is also a good meta call right now. It might be sufficient to have him chump block instead of O-stone. Plus the card advantage was missed as I got hymned repeatedly today. I may take that list -3 O-Stone, +1 Mage +1 Candelabra +1 Repeal, or -2 Needle, +1 Mage +1 Candelabra and see how that fares. If we end up back in all colors of tempo season, I will pick the DRS back up - it was great for me in that environment, but for now, needle and repeal are the better speed bumps.


Do you guys feel the same about this take against the meta? How has everyone's swan song experience been?

[Davek]

Hi Tim,

i'm still substantially playing the same list i posted in the previous page, just as you did i have lowered vesuva count to 3 while adding a singleton breeding pool instead of your basic island, because there's nothing i hated more than having a titan in hand, a lot of colorless mana in play and just 2 basic island looking at me helplessy. I'm not sold on it, but i have to say that i tutor it every time i feel i don't immediately need its mana, so i can put it tapped into play saving 2 lifes.
I've added Tabernacle to the sb too (Young Pyromancer decks doesn't seem to appreciate it) together with a couple of Swan Songs, while shaving Glen Elendra and Fow, so my new sb looks like this:

4 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Swan Song
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Tabernacle
1 Thragtusk

I really cannot totally cut Fows, i think many combo decks are too fast not to have a quick 0 mana answer, that's why i prefer keeping them and limiting Swan Song to 2/3 copies. Song has been great at the moment (not so spectacular against omnitell since it doesn't counter Defense Grid), but i'm worried about our lack of colored mana to relyably cast, lets say on turn 2, both swan song and flusterstorm.
Also, while i like Glen Elendra once in play, i often found it a bit narrow. It's really slow, and i can't remember a time where i cast it while still having 2 more blue untapped lands ready to activate it twice. It's still the best thing to show against omnitell, i know...

[TimHarding]

Hi Tim,

i'm still substantially playing the same list i posted in the previous page, just as you did i have lowered vesuva count to 3 while adding a singleton breeding pool instead of your basic island, because there's nothing i hated more than having a titan in hand, a lot of colorless mana in play and just 2 basic island looking at me helplessy. I'm not sold on it, but i have to say that i tutor it every time i feel i don't immediately need its mana, so i can put it tapped into play saving 2 lifes.
I've added Tabernacle to the sb too (Young Pyromancer decks doesn't seem to appreciate it) together with a couple of Swan Songs, while shaving Glen Elendra and Fow, so my new sb looks like this:

4 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Swan Song
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Tabernacle
1 Thragtusk

I really cannot totally cut Fows, i think many combo decks are too fast not to have a quick 0 mana answer, that's why i prefer keeping them and limiting Swan Song to 2/3 copies. Song has been great at the moment (not so spectacular against omnitell since it doesn't counter Defense Grid), but i'm worried about our lack of colored mana to relyably cast, lets say on turn 2, both swan song and flusterstorm.
Also, while i like Glen Elendra once in play, i often found it a bit narrow. It's really slow, and i can't remember a time where i cast it while still having 2 more blue untapped lands ready to activate it twice. It's still the best thing to show against omnitell, i know...

You make a very good point with FOW. Especially with the double blue- I've been lucky to avoid that bottle neck. I'm going to but a few in and mix it around. The flusterstorms are the only thing completely safe.

I actually have glen elendra in there because I feel that she is versitile. As a counter yeah she's narrow but she blocks like a thragtusk. Relying on her as the first line of defense doesn't work, but each time I resolve her the game feels won.

I feel you pain and can see how breeding pool would help. I'm very protective of the basic forest I run and when I felt I needed help with Titan I went for cavern - which will be right back in if blue picks back up..

[Rock Lee]

Here's the list I've been testing for a few weeks now:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
3 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
3 [ZEN] Island (8)
1 [LG] Karakas

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [US] Show and Tell
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [M10] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage

Very "oldschool" in this list. there WERE times I missed fow, so unsure about ditching it. The likely sub would be mindbreak trap though, rather than swan song or glen elendra. Still unsure. Also testing the 1 needle versus another land versus a 3rd candelabra. This build is significantly more combo-ey than previous builds, but in testing it is savagely consistent.

[Davek]

I was pondering lately about heavy discard matchups (BUG and Jund expecially) and i was looking for a card that could shore these ones a bit. I've always felt these game aren't really terrible but a bit randomic: if they hit the nuts with Hymn, then the game will be a real nightmare, if not it will be just fine.
Lurking here and there i found this Urza's Destiny uncommon card: Compost. Do you think it could deserve a try?

[TimHarding]

Here's the list I've been testing for a few weeks now:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
3 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
3 [ZEN] Island (8)
1 [LG] Karakas

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [US] Show and Tell
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [M10] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage

Very "oldschool" in this list. there WERE times I missed fow, so unsure about ditching it. The likely sub would be mindbreak trap though, rather than swan song or glen elendra. Still unsure. Also testing the 1 needle versus another land versus a 3rd candelabra. This build is significantly more combo-ey than previous builds, but in testing it is savagely consistent.

I like this list a lot. I know candles and kozileks play well together, but have you used that fast kozilek often?

Were mages and repeal always enough defense? I seem to always devote more slots for ostone and the like over your lists..

Force over trap seems logical because so many times trap is hard cast anyway. And it floats. We'll have to have Jeff break down probabilities on tues haha.

[TimHarding]

I was pondering lately about heavy discard matchups (BUG and Jund expecially) and i was looking for a card that could shore these ones a bit. I've always felt these game aren't really terrible but a bit randomic: if they hit the nuts with Hymn, then the game will be a real nightmare, if not it will be just fine.
Lurking here and there i found this Urza's Destiny uncommon card: Compost. Do you think it could deserve a try?

I've been struggling with this problem too. A lot of the time I shrug it off saying all decks lose to double hymn- but that's a lame excuse. I'm also looking into solutions and I bet compost would work if the meta is saturated with black, plus there's an awful lot of deathritre and others out there too.

The best regular way to fight it in my experience is to make sure you stick a top early, and defensively hold brainstorm because most hymn decks don't pressure hard. But overall hymn is a card we are weak to.

[Rock Lee]

I like this list a lot. I know candles and kozileks play well together, but have you used that fast kozilek often?

Were mages and repeal always enough defense? I seem to always devote more slots for ostone and the like over your lists..

Force over trap seems logical because so many times trap is hard cast anyway. And it floats. We'll have to have Jeff break down probabilities on tues haha.

Just at that small event last week I hardcast Kozilek 4 times for the win. Once in two turns, with him getting countered in response to the trigger, shuffling, then drawing himself. After he got STP'd the 2nd time, my opponent said "How am I supposed to deal with you? I finally stopped Kozilek and you still have 7 cards in hand?" The beauty of Kozilek. There was a time when I ran TWO Kozilek in the deck, but this was pre-liliana printing and stifle-naught was a thing, so I relied on his 12/12 body after being stifled. I still might test a 3rd candelabra, since Kozilek pounding is very often GG.

[Rock Lee]

I was pondering lately about heavy discard matchups (BUG and Jund expecially) and i was looking for a card that could shore these ones a bit. I've always felt these game aren't really terrible but a bit randomic: if they hit the nuts with Hymn, then the game will be a real nightmare, if not it will be just fine.
Lurking here and there i found this Urza's Destiny uncommon card: Compost. Do you think it could deserve a try?

No on compost. If it drew a card when being abrupt decay'd I would say "still no, but good idea," but yeah, too risky and too iffy. You would need to run the bonfire version for this, and even then you'd only be drawing 1-2 cards from it the entire game.

The better plan, is to know what is the threat/goal of your deck, how hymn can mess with it, and move forward from there. Since the deck's plan is mana fixing, play to those strengths. A turn 1 map vs their turn 2 hymn is a very good play, moreso because they have to decide to NOT abrupt decay it. Additionally, running higher land count can fix your hymn woes. Really though, the cards hymn is there as a -1 parity card for you, but since the vast majority of your deck stays on parity, you should be fine if you play defensively and attentive to your mana.

[TimHarding]

For me it's usually less of the mana screw issue, but more of a take-my-last-two-business-spells issue. Playing off the top with a few lands on board doesn't usually go well. So the top on board is huge because any Titan in hand isn't going to be there long. I'll mull basically any hand that doesn't feature at least 1 library manipulation, and with that 1 I'm looking for a second ASAP to then begin. Their plan is slow, and that one Goyf can be repealed along the way if you're engine is working..

[Mkr]

I've been testing with Post again with a buddy and interestingly, we've also gone back to the 2012 UG lists. I'm even thinking of using Devastation Tide again to support the Repeals.

Hymn hurts a lot, but the real back breaker is the Liliana that comes after it. :tongue:

[TimHarding]

Just at that small event last week I hardcast Kozilek 4 times for the win. Once in two turns, with him getting countered in response to the trigger, shuffling, then drawing himself. After he got STP'd the 2nd time, my opponent said "How am I supposed to deal with you? I finally stopped Kozilek and you still have 7 cards in hand?" The beauty of Kozilek. There was a time when I ran TWO Kozilek in the deck, but this was pre-liliana printing and stifle-naught was a thing, so I relied on his 12/12 body after being stifled. I still might test a 3rd candelabra, since Kozilek pounding is very often GG.

That's sick haha. But I've been on the fence about wether or not high candle count and kozilek improves the consistency of the approach, or "win more". Yeah they're more comboey but know what I mean?

3 candles and more eldrazi calls that 4th vesuva from the bench

[Rock Lee]

That's sick haha. But I've been on the fence about wether or not high candle count and kozilek improves the consistency of the approach, or "win more". Yeah they're more comboey but know what I mean?

3 candles and more eldrazi calls that 4th vesuva from the bench

I feel like the 3rd candelabra is less risky than a 4th vesuva. Simply because opening hands are easier with 3 vesuva. Unless you are replacing the 3rd candelabra with an additional land, that being the vesuva itself, which is a viable option.

[mwbagels]

I feel like the 3rd candelabra is less risky than a 4th vesuva. Simply because opening hands are easier with 3 vesuva. Unless you are replacing the 3rd candelabra with an additional land, that being the vesuva itself, which is a viable option.

How well positioned is your list currently? I will be going to SCG Milwaukee next week and am really thinking about playing 12 post.

[Hopo]

I went 3-1-1 in a small local tournament today earning some shop credit.

Matchups:
Round 1: BUG landstill 2-0
Round 2: 4c Opposition brew 1-1-1
Round 3: TES 1-2
Round 4: Shardless BUG 2-0
Round 5: TES 2-1

I used to play a seemingly random Steel Hellkite earlier but the 4th Exploration Map replaced it in order to get the big mana flowing as soon as possible. Glimmerposts and needles were doing most of the work today. Sideboard makes the TES matchup feel not terrible at all.

I wouldn't change a thing since this is working like charm in my meta. I have some idea on how to tweak the sideboard, though.

Deck: Turbo Eldrazi (http://deckstats.net/decks/146/4251-turbo-eldrazi/en) http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif

//Main
4 Cloudpost (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Cloudpost)
4 Vesuva (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Vesuva)
4 Glimmerpost (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Glimmerpost)
4 Tropical Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tropical+Island)
2 Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Island)
1 Eye of Ugin (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Eye+of+Ugin)
1 Karakas (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Karakas)
1 Bojuka Bog (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Bojuka+Bog)
1 Glacial Chasm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Glacial+Chasm)
4 Misty Rainforest (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Misty+Rainforest)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Emrakul%2C+the+Aeons+Torn)
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Kozilek%2C+Butcher+of+Truth)
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ulamog%2C+the+Infinite+Gyre)
4 Primeval Titan (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Primeval+Titan)
2 Trinket Mage (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Trinket+Mage)
4 Show and Tell (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Show+and+Tell)
3 Pithing Needle (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Pithing+Needle)
4 Crop Rotation (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Crop+Rotation)
3 Sensei's Divining Top (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Sensei%27s+Divining+Top)
2 Candelabra of Tawnos (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Candelabra+of+Tawnos)
4 Expedition Map (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Expedition+Map)
4 Repeal (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Repeal)
2 Oblivion Stone (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Oblivion+Stone)

//Sideboard
4 Flusterstorm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Flusterstorm)
4 Mindbreak Trap (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mindbreak+Trap)
2 Oblivion Stone (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Oblivion+Stone)
2 Blue Elemental Blast (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Blue+Elemental+Blast)
1 Grafdigger's Cage (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Grafdigger%27s+Cage)
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=The+Tabernacle+at+Pendrell+Vale)
1 Venser, Shaper Savant (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Venser%2C+Shaper+Savant)

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display deck statistics (http://deckstats.net/decks/146/4251-turbo-eldrazi)

[203995014]

In an unknown meta, would it be better to sideboard Force of Will or Swan Song? I really don't want to get trampled by Blood Moon but I hate Chalice of the Void also.

In addition, is the version of this deck Rock Lee posted a while ago with Deathrites and Thragtusks seen as better or is the original classic list on the first post still considered the best?

This is my current list BTW and is also the list that I am talking about that is 10 pages away, take out Elephant Grass for Venser (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-post-legacy-2/)

[Rock Lee]

As an answer to my current list. This is what I'm testing at the moment.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
3 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
2 [ZEN] Island (8)
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [US] Show and Tell
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 2 [VI] Elephant Grass
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

[TimHarding]

I went 3-1-1 in a small local tournament today earning some shop credit.

Matchups:
Round 1: BUG landstill 2-0
Round 2: 4c Opposition brew 1-1-1
Round 3: TES 1-2
Round 4: Shardless BUG 2-0
Round 5: TES 2-1

I used to play a seemingly random Steel Hellkite earlier but the 4th Exploration Map replaced it in order to get the big mana flowing as soon as possible. Glimmerposts and needles were doing most of the work today. Sideboard makes the TES matchup feel not terrible at all.

I wouldn't change a thing since this is working like charm in my meta. I have some idea on how to tweak the sideboard, though.

Deck: Turbo Eldrazi (http://deckstats.net/decks/146/4251-turbo-eldrazi/en) http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif

//Main
4 Cloudpost (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Cloudpost)
4 Vesuva (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Vesuva)
4 Glimmerpost (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Glimmerpost)
4 Tropical Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tropical+Island)
2 Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Island)
1 Eye of Ugin (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Eye+of+Ugin)
1 Karakas (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Karakas)
1 Bojuka Bog (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Bojuka+Bog)
1 Glacial Chasm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Glacial+Chasm)
4 Misty Rainforest (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Misty+Rainforest)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Emrakul%2C+the+Aeons+Torn)
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Kozilek%2C+Butcher+of+Truth)
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ulamog%2C+the+Infinite+Gyre)
4 Primeval Titan (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Primeval+Titan)
2 Trinket Mage (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Trinket+Mage)
4 Show and Tell (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Show+and+Tell)
3 Pithing Needle (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Pithing+Needle)
4 Crop Rotation (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Crop+Rotation)
3 Sensei's Divining Top (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Sensei%27s+Divining+Top)
2 Candelabra of Tawnos (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Candelabra+of+Tawnos)
4 Expedition Map (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Expedition+Map)
4 Repeal (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Repeal)
2 Oblivion Stone (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Oblivion+Stone)

//Sideboard
4 Flusterstorm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Flusterstorm)
4 Mindbreak Trap (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mindbreak+Trap)
2 Oblivion Stone (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Oblivion+Stone)
2 Blue Elemental Blast (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Blue+Elemental+Blast)
1 Grafdigger's Cage (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Grafdigger%27s+Cage)
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=The+Tabernacle+at+Pendrell+Vale)
1 Venser, Shaper Savant (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Venser%2C+Shaper+Savant)

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display deck statistics (http://deckstats.net/decks/146/4251-turbo-eldrazi)

Sweet list! How has your experience been without brainstorm? I couldn't imagine my game plan working without manipulation

[TimHarding]

In an unknown meta, would it be better to sideboard Force of Will or Swan Song? I really don't want to get trampled by Blood Moon but I hate Chalice of the Void also.

In addition, is the version of this deck Rock Lee posted a while ago with Deathrites and Thragtusks seen as better or is the original classic list on the first post still considered the best?

This is my current list BTW and is also the list that I am talking about that is 10 pages away, take out Elephant Grass for Venser (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-post-legacy-2/)

Right now I think we want a few of both, especially in an open meta. They're very similar, but the hard counter effect is so powerful right now with all of our problem matchups hinging on one key spell. The ratio between the four types of counters is something I'm always adjusting, but some FOW do seem to be needed.

While they're wildly different lists at first glance, they are for slightly different metas. DRS and tusk mostly shore up heavy tempo metas. With such a huge potential card pool a slight tweak can change a lot of cards. But overall the core of the UG deck is huge and very inertial - everything else is just a spin on top of that..

[Lemnear]

I went 3-1-1 in a small local tournament today earning some shop credit.

Matchups:
Round 1: BUG landstill 2-0
Round 2: 4c Opposition brew 1-1-1
Round 3: TES 1-2
Round 4: Shardless BUG 2-0
Round 5: TES 2-1

I used to play a seemingly random Steel Hellkite earlier but the 4th Exploration Map replaced it in order to get the big mana flowing as soon as possible. Glimmerposts and needles were doing most of the work today. Sideboard makes the TES matchup feel not terrible at all.

I wouldn't change a thing since this is working like charm in my meta. I have some idea on how to tweak the sideboard, though.

Deck: Turbo Eldrazi (http://deckstats.net/decks/146/4251-turbo-eldrazi/en) http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif

//Main
4 Cloudpost (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Cloudpost)
4 Vesuva (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Vesuva)
4 Glimmerpost (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Glimmerpost)
4 Tropical Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tropical+Island)
2 Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Island)
1 Eye of Ugin (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Eye+of+Ugin)
1 Karakas (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Karakas)
1 Bojuka Bog (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Bojuka+Bog)
1 Glacial Chasm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Glacial+Chasm)
4 Misty Rainforest (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Misty+Rainforest)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Emrakul%2C+the+Aeons+Torn)
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Kozilek%2C+Butcher+of+Truth)
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ulamog%2C+the+Infinite+Gyre)
4 Primeval Titan (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Primeval+Titan)
2 Trinket Mage (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Trinket+Mage)
4 Show and Tell (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Show+and+Tell)
3 Pithing Needle (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Pithing+Needle)
4 Crop Rotation (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Crop+Rotation)
3 Sensei's Divining Top (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Sensei%27s+Divining+Top)
2 Candelabra of Tawnos (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Candelabra+of+Tawnos)
4 Expedition Map (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Expedition+Map)
4 Repeal (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Repeal)
2 Oblivion Stone (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Oblivion+Stone)

//Sideboard
4 Flusterstorm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Flusterstorm)
4 Mindbreak Trap (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mindbreak+Trap)
2 Oblivion Stone (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Oblivion+Stone)
2 Blue Elemental Blast (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Blue+Elemental+Blast)
1 Grafdigger's Cage (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Grafdigger%27s+Cage)
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=The+Tabernacle+at+Pendrell+Vale)
1 Venser, Shaper Savant (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Venser%2C+Shaper+Savant)

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display deck statistics (http://deckstats.net/decks/146/4251-turbo-eldrazi)

I have no clue how this list should ever steal a single game against TES ... No Thorn, No Chalice, just MBT which is a joke for TES.

[Hopo]

Sweet list! How has your experience been without brainstorm? I couldn't imagine my game plan working without manipulation

Thanks!
I have had the merfolk-syndrome with Brainstorm: I'd rather have more business than dilute the deck with a card that's suppose to find the said business. I never did well in tournaments or when testing with Brainstorm. To me Pithing Needle is way more important and in my deck they are pretty much fighting for the same space. It feels a bit same as Deathrite Shaman: everybody claimed how good it is but in practice it never did anything good for me. Could be a metagame thing, though, because everything usually is.

[Hopo]

I have no clue how this list should ever steal a single game against TES ... No Thorn, No Chalice, just MBT which is a joke for TES.
What do you mean by "just MBT"? The relevant cards would be
4 MBT
4 Flusterstorm
2 BEB
1 Venser
1 Tabernacle
4 Crop rotation -> Bojuka Bog/Chasm/Tabernacle
and for those once in a lifetime moments: 4 Repeal (bounce a mox in response to hellbent tutor).

Top helps you float counters on top of your library but you are soft to Silence.

Nonetheless, fast non-graveyard-combo is probably the worst matchup. You should pretty much always lose game 1 unless some of the following happens:
1) a surprise Bojuka Bog to mess with mana maths, IGG or Past in Flames
2) you get to Show and Tell a Titan into massive lifegain
3) you get to Rotate a Glacial Chasm to stop goblin tokens/Belcher
4) you get to Oblivion Stone them back to stone age for some reason

Of course it helps if people are unfamiliar with the deck and especially sideboarding.
I don't know what kind of hand my last round opponent kept in game 1 as I had time to hardcast two Titans. He should have clearly mulliganed.

If I decide that the storm matchups needs more attention, I would try some additional hate permanents in sideboard as Silence is bad news.

[Lemnear]

What do you mean by "just MBT"? The relevant cards would be
4 MBT
4 Flusterstorm
2 BEB
1 Venser
1 Tabernacle
4 Crop rotation -> Bojuka Bog/Chasm/Tabernacle
and for those once in a lifetime moments: 4 Repeal (bounce a mox in response to hellbent tutor).

Top helps you float counters on top of your library but you are soft to Silence.

Nonetheless, fast non-graveyard-combo is probably the worst matchup. You should pretty much always lose game 1 unless some of the following happens:
1) a surprise Bojuka Bog to mess with mana maths, IGG or Past in Flames
2) you get to Show and Tell a Titan into massive lifegain
3) you get to Rotate a Glacial Chasm to stop goblin tokens/Belcher
4) you get to Oblivion Stone them back to stone age for some reason

Of course it helps if people are unfamiliar with the deck and especially sideboarding.
I don't know what kind of hand my last round opponent kept in game 1 as I had time to hardcast two Titans. He should have clearly mulliganed.

If I decide that the storm matchups needs more attention, I would try some additional hate permanents in sideboard as Silence is bad news.

It's because all those reactive spells fall victim to Silence and Xantid Swarm. Crop Rotation does nothing against Tendrils but only against EtW or Grapshot. OmniTell can ignore your Titan and it's tutored lands.

I think the fact, that your TES opponents plain beat themselves (as it seems), overshadows the urge to adjust the 75 more towards the combo-matchup. MBT is a horrible choice to adress combo: it is easily avoidable for storm and totally dead against S&T and even stuff like Doomsday Maniac

[Hopo]

Like has been said, fast combo is the worst but not impossible. You still can and will win every now and then. Rock Lee has some sb configurations that are addressing the omni-tell meta. In my area the deck just doesn't exist. I'm happy with the level of protection I have now but I admit it would feel even better with Brainstorms.

[Blastoderm]

Like has been said, fast combo is the worst but not impossible. You still can and will win every now and then. Rock Lee has some sb configurations that are addressing the omni-tell meta. In my area the deck just doesn't exist. I'm happy with the level of protection I have now but I admit it would feel even better with Brainstorms.

I had grips/trinisphere in my sb when my meta had like 3 omni tell decks lol

[TimHarding]

It's because all those reactive spells fall victim to Silence and Xantid Swarm. Crop Rotation does nothing against Tendrils but only against EtW or Grapshot. OmniTell can ignore your Titan and it's tutored lands.

I think the fact, that your TES opponents plain beat themselves (as it seems), overshadows the urge to adjust the 75 more towards the combo-matchup. MBT is a horrible choice to adress combo: it is easily avoidable for storm and totally dead against S&T and even stuff like Doomsday Maniac

I do agree that the list is light on TES defense. And if he's facing 2 of them in a 5 round I'd definitely up the hate. But the deck isn't a total dog to it. I actually pilot TES often and the density of relevant cards post has is way above most other legacy decks, even maindeck. Crop/repeal arent king but they're more of a threat than stone forge mystics and slots other decks have. Plus, the game two and three basically eliminates the warrens path with chasm and tabernacle.

I went into a small event expecting MUD and TES with this board:

4 Fluster
4 Force of Will
1 Show and Tell
1 Tabernacle
3 Swan Song
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Cursed Totem(relevant across the meta)

Now, as the TES pilot (and I've been there), fighting through a pile of counters (Hopos even had 10 or so) is definitely not a cake walk, on top of the many relevant maindeck cards. Plus, post can suddenly be at turn three 30 life then turn 4 manymany life (which should be on the post players mind). So now fitting in this window wanting a xantid attack step - without it getting repealed & no reliable warrens path or past in flames is really an uphill battle.

But the real take away here is that in addition to up to 12 counters- our lands, creatures, tutors, AND removal is relevant in the match and really adds up. The post pilot must play to the approach of TES. When I pilot TES I find playing the rug waste/daze game is at least a 1D defense and easier to win over a tuned post board. And yes, any deck is going to lose to G3 TES silence and kill you before you get a land drop - but it won't be a warrens kill lol

How do you improve the matchup?

[Lemnear]

Come on ... It's not that this decks cards are interchangeable in that matchup. It begins with the colorless lands and ramping to Titan vs. Blue Duals and counterspells and ends with too many scenarios straight from winterwonderland like having a miraculous Crop Rotation against Plan-B-Engines or Repeal against Swarm (which TES still can replay through your suggested Flusterstorms and Swan Sings).

You can see all of it coming for miles, if you have to deal with turn 3-4 lifegain or a slow-rolling counter-strategy, TES can easily adjust to those and it's not uncommon, that Ad Nauseam into PIF enables Tendrils to leech 60+ lifepoints (my current tournament Record is a stormcount of 54).

Relying on counterspells without a clock is a loosing strategy against storm. I'd rather consider interrupting the gameplan with Thorn of Amethyst (no color restrictions) or discard (no pressure to have a certain count of blue cards).

[Davek]

Come on ... It's not that this decks cards are interchangeable in that matchup. It begins with the colorless lands and ramping to Titan vs. Blue Duals and counterspells and ends with too many scenarios straight from winterwonderland like having a miraculous Crop Rotation against Plan-B-Engines or Repeal against Swarm (which TES still can replay through your suggested Flusterstorms and Swan Sings).

You can see all of it coming for miles, if you have to deal with turn 3-4 lifegain or a slow-rolling counter-strategy, TES can easily adjust to those and it's not uncommon, that Ad Nauseam into PIF enables Tendrils to leech 60+ lifepoints (my current tournament Record is a stormcount of 54).

Relying on counterspells without a clock is a loosing strategy against storm. I'd rather consider interrupting the gameplan with Thorn of Amethyst (no color restrictions) or discard (no pressure to have a certain count of blue cards).

Lemnear, i feel you're right... and wrong, at the same time.
You're totally right when you say Post latest sideboards are poor against a decent TES pilot, that they're soft to a xantid swarm and that you can easily win from there. It's true, even if Post-player can repeal it for 1 turn, you'll probably end replaying it again. But we are speaking of TES, which is a rather rare animal (just as Post is) and has different tools from the most popular storm deck, ANT (which is a lot easier to play) and its recent versions. A couple of days ago, while playing against a classical ANT, i kept this no-land hand:
2 Mindbreak Trap, 1 Crop Rotation, 1 Fow, 1 Top, 1 Brainstorm, 1 Flusterstorm

I snap-kept it. "I don't mind if ther's no clock nor a single land, a classical ANT will have a hard time fighting through this" i thought. To make a long story short, it ended as i expected, and the ANT player lost the game. As a post-player, having a clock against combo is not important at all, it's important not to lose the game. But as i said you have a point with TES.


Speaking about combo sideboarding, i'm not so happy with Glen Elendra Archmage, i'm thinking about cutting her and a MBtrap while adding a pair of Arcane Laboratories (that come in handy against Omnitell too). What do you guys think about them? Are they too slow?

[Hopo]

Sure, you are likely not going to ramp into Titan without Show and Tell but sometimes all it takes is an arrogant or ignorant storm player keeping a mediocre or graveyard-dependent hand to get punished by an instant Bog.

I would say that Trinisphere in this deck is more effective against Omnitell than storm as you have no way to play it before turn three. I would go for Chalice or Sphere of Resistance. I see no big reasons to play Thorn over Sphere as the latter also deals with another problem deck, Elves and you hardly play creatures yourself.

[TimHarding]

Come on ... It's not that this decks cards are interchangeable in that matchup. It begins with the colorless lands and ramping to Titan vs. Blue Duals and counterspells and ends with too many scenarios straight from winterwonderland like having a miraculous Crop Rotation against Plan-B-Engines or Repeal against Swarm (which TES still can replay through your suggested Flusterstorms and Swan Sings).

You can see all of it coming for miles, if you have to deal with turn 3-4 lifegain or a slow-rolling counter-strategy, TES can easily adjust to those and it's not uncommon, that Ad Nauseam into PIF enables Tendrils to leech 60+ lifepoints (my current tournament Record is a stormcount of 54).

Relying on counterspells without a clock is a loosing strategy against storm. I'd rather consider interrupting the gameplan with Thorn of Amethyt (no color restrictions) or discard (no pressure to have a certain count of blue cards).

I know you're also often on the TES thread and I can appreciate the bias. I'm saying that yes any game 1 win is a true steal for post but games 2 and 3 bring it much closer to even, with TES possibly still ahead. It's not anywhere near as troublesome as MUD. Overall I've had a pretty good experience against storm.

As far as arcane and the like said below, they're all nice but still a little slow IMO, I haven't been sold on any permanent based hate although I want some.

[Lemnear]

I know you're also often on the TES thread and I can appreciate the bias. I'm saying that yes any game 1 win is a true steal for post but games 2 and 3 bring it much closer to even, with TES possibly still ahead. It's not anywhere near as troublesome as MUD. Overall I've had a pretty good experience against storm.

As far as arcane and the like said below, they're all nice but still a little slow IMO, I haven't been sold on any permanent based hate although I want some.

It's not being biased, but experienced from playing the matchup from the other side of the table and it's sometimes sad to see a lack of resistance from various decks. That's why I dip here and there into some threads, trying to give some input of how to tackle storm.

I was locally and by this thread a bit disappointed to see a lack of actual threatening cards for storm like the mentioned Thorn of Amethyst or the evergreen Chalice of the Void which have other applications too. The overload on counterspells hurts the development of 12-post without match, being a complete counterintuitive gameplan (quick ramp vs. Slow-Roll control; colorless lands vs. Blue Duals) which is also easy to dismantle with Silence or Swarm which storm can unmolested dig for, unlike doing so under Sphere, Thorn or Chalice.

I had no other intention than improving this deck...

[J-Funk]

It's not being biased, but experienced from playing the matchup from the other side of the table and it's sometimes sad to see a lack of resistance from various decks. That's why I dip here and there into some threads, trying to give some input of how to tackle storm.

I was locally and by this thread a bit disappointed to see a lack of actual threatening cards for storm like the mentioned Thorn of Amethyst or the evergreen Chalice of the Void which have other applications too. The overload on counterspells hurts the development of 12-post without match, being a complete counterintuitive gameplan (quick ramp vs. Slow-Roll control; colorless lands vs. Blue Duals) which is also easy to dismantle with Silence or Swarm which storm can unmolested dig for, unlike doing so under Sphere, Thorn or Chalice.

I had no other intention than improving this deck...

Lemnear, thanks for your input man. I've been running Chalice in my sideboard over the overload of Color-based instant speed countermagic, and it's been a godsend. I think certain countermagic still makes sense (Mindbreak and Fluster imho), but that's where it ends for me. I've been planning on implement sphere as another possibility and every day I get close and closer to throwing it in there.

[203995014]

Can Mystic Remora be considered as sideboard tech vs. Hymn to Tourach and whatnot? The Cumulative Upkeep cost is paid fairly easily similar to Elephant Grass and it does draw quite a bit of cards for you.

[Lemnear]

Can Mystic Remora be considered as sideboard tech vs. Hymn to Tourach and whatnot? The Cumulative Upkeep cost is paid fairly easily similar to Elephant Grass and it does draw quite a bit of cards for you.

Mystic Remora + Repeal is an age-old Vintage interaction, but without a very fast and relyable way to race the com. upkeep (Beta Moxen!) it's hard to not restrict you more than your opponent in a format evolving around creatures which Remora ignores.



@J-Funk
It took me months to convince peeps in the Elves thread that Mindbreak Trap is a one-trick-pony against storm, because it can easily be outplayed with Silence, Swarm, Duress, Therapy and even with Infernal -> Ad Nauseam if you have enough permamen-based manasources in play.

[Megadeus]

I have no clue how this list should ever steal a single game against TES ... No Thorn, No Chalice, just MBT which is a joke for TES.

I lost to burn at an Open... But he was running MB Pyrostatic Pillar (Seriously wtf?) and then I mulled to 5 with hot garbage in G2 and died on T3. Sometimes you just dont get there with TES

[Jay_Gatz]

I lost to burn at an Open... But he was running MB Pyrostatic Pillar (Seriously wtf?) and then I mulled to 5 with hot garbage in G2 and died on T3. Sometimes you just dont get there with TES
I probably would have called a judge to check his deck list over main deck pillars

[TimHarding]

It's not being biased, but experienced from playing the matchup from the other side of the table and it's sometimes sad to see a lack of resistance from various decks. That's why I dip here and there into some threads, trying to give some input of how to tackle storm.

I was locally and by this thread a bit disappointed to see a lack of actual threatening cards for storm like the mentioned Thorn of Amethyst or the evergreen Chalice of the Void which have other applications too. The overload on counterspells hurts the development of 12-post without match, being a complete counterintuitive gameplan (quick ramp vs. Slow-Roll control; colorless lands vs. Blue Duals) which is also easy to dismantle with Silence or Swarm which storm can unmolested dig for, unlike doing so under Sphere, Thorn or Chalice.

I had no other intention than improving this deck...

Understood, and it's appreciated - all of your points led me to cut MbT. And while the chalice/and everyone's sphere idea that's appetizing might be where to go, the board I listed is good against an open combo field and relevant against devastating dreams, moon and other chalice decks - TES isn't quite popular enough to pull many slots away from the snt combos and such..

[Davek]

A question for all of you who use to sb Chalice against stormy decks... at what cc do you set it? 0? I feel that we are so slow that ANT or TES can prepare themselves to go off even without relying on their artifact mana... 1? We would shut all our manipulations, so it's totally wrong for me... 2? It would be fine, but slow as hell...

[Lemnear]

A question for all of you who use to sb Chalice against stormy decks... at what cc do you set it? 0? I feel that we are so slow that ANT or TES can prepare themselves to go off even without relying on their artifact mana... 1? We would shut all our manipulations, so it's totally wrong for me... 2? It would be fine, but slow as hell...

Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox and LED (Infernal Tutor!!) are essential for Ad Nauseam. Against the route of Past in Flames you have a lot more time

[davelin]

A question for all of you who use to sb Chalice against stormy decks... at what cc do you set it? 0? I feel that we are so slow that ANT or TES can prepare themselves to go off even without relying on their artifact mana... 1? We would shut all our manipulations, so it's totally wrong for me... 2? It would be fine, but slow as hell...

Setting it on 0 counteracts their explosiveness (Petal, LED, etc) while 1 counteracts cantrips and ritual effects. Against TES I would set it at 0 and against ANT I would set it at 1 but either deck can technically fight through both.

[Rock Lee]

Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox and LED (Infernal Tutor!!) are essential for Ad Nauseam. Against the route of Past in Flames you have a lot more time

I approve of dissenting opinions from other deck foundations on the source, but I would caution against hasty matchup appraisals without testing. All forms of storm are positive matchups. TES does have silence and Swarm, but this makes them more vulnerable to repeal and grindiness due to gemstone mine.

I would strongly suggest testing this matchup before suggesting different/more sideboard cards. Coming in here and blindly fear mongering doesn't help. This matchup has been tested extensively for many years.

[Lemnear]

I approve of dissenting opinions from other deck foundations on the source, but I would caution against hasty matchup appraisals without testing. All forms of storm are positive matchups. TES does have silence and Swarm, but this makes them more vulnerable to repeal and grindiness due to gemstone mine.

I would strongly suggest testing this matchup before suggesting different/more sideboard cards. Coming in here and blindly fear mongering doesn't help. This matchup has been tested extensively for many years.

Jerry, I just hopped in because I saw a shift towards the overload on counterspells and destroyed our local 12-post player several times now, with him claiming to read this thread, building his SB in regards to that. I was just curious...

I can't share the impression that storm is a positive matchup with the Sideboards (and mainboards) i had to face and read here the last few pages tbh.

I'm not drawing conclusions off thin air, but off actual live games.

[PollePotDK]

Hi all

A question about the sideboard. I have seen a lot playing with Venser in SB, but I myself cant seem to get the right value out of it. Against which match ups does he really shine? May be a stupid ass question, but against Combo he's too slow and against Aggro and Control I dont think I want to see him. Is it to remove problematic permanents or...? There we have Ulamog.

Thanks in advance

[TimHarding]

Hi all

A question about the sideboard. I have seen a lot playing with Venser in SB, but I myself cant seem to get the right value out of it. Against which match ups does he really shine? May be a stupid ass question, but against Combo he's too slow and against Aggro and Control I dont think I want to see him. Is it to remove problematic permanents or...? There we have Ulamog.

Thanks in advance

I've also never been very successful on the venser plan for all the reasons you've mentioned. Right now the combination of Swan Song and Glen Elendra provide the same coverage, and more, for less blue requirement. For me, venser has little to add when comparing to a SB pool of FOW, Fluster, Swan Song and Glen Elendra. Glen Elendra is amazing in the omni and sneak matchups, with needle adding more sneak support. Also at the moment any other MD creature spot goes to Trinket Mage which is better positioned now for MD.

[Hopo]

Venser is for Show and Tell combo, but as it's a counterspell, you will bring it in against other combos as well.
It's not the best answer to either S&T or to storm, but it sort of works against both so I dig it more than the fairie wizard at the moment. Casting sorcery speed Glen Elendra Archmage with U or UU up is painful.

[Rock Lee]

Hi all

A question about the sideboard. I have seen a lot playing with Venser in SB, but I myself cant seem to get the right value out of it. Against which match ups does he really shine? May be a stupid ass question, but against Combo he's too slow and against Aggro and Control I dont think I want to see him. Is it to remove problematic permanents or...? There we have Ulamog.

Thanks in advance

It is interesting that you mention venser, because I have been testing venserx2 MD in my recent build. Venser is there specifically against omni, where they let you put him in for free. His other role against combo is to let you exhaust all your cheap counters early, and then use venser + karakas to lock out the game.

This is the un-tuned version I've been testing recently:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
3 [ZEN] Island (8)
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
2 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
1 [UL] Snap
2 [US] Show and Tell
4 [GP] Repeal
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 1 [MMA] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

[J-Funk]

It is interesting that you mention venser, because I have been testing venserx2 MD in my recent build. Venser is there specifically against omni, where they let you put him in for free. His other role against combo is to let you exhaust all your cheap counters early, and then use venser + karakas to lock out the game.

This is the un-tuned version I've been testing recently:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
3 [ZEN] Island (8)
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
2 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
1 [UL] Snap
2 [US] Show and Tell
4 [GP] Repeal
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 1 [MMA] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

I was testing Venser in my main-deck for a little while. It's totally a meta-call, if you deal with a lot of S&T decks he's awesome. Plus, that Venser/Karakas lock is wonderful. I eventually moved away from him and am now actually maining 2xSwan Song instead. I've been pretty excited by how well I can protect my S&T now. I know people have mixed feelings about SS in the maindeck, but I'm enjoying it.

Now for some more controversial opinions:
~Glacial Chasm is a Sidebard Card. I'm glad to see you trying that out. It comes in against a lot of decks, but those decks are already pretty positive matchups in Game 1 (save Elves and MUD). So often it's such a frustrating dead-draw that I had to move it to the board. I've been much happier with that.

~Chalice is our BEST SB card against combo, as well as many other bad matchup decks. I see no reason not to 4x it. I'm also testing 3x Sphere of Resistance right now in the board, and that will probably be coming to Seattle with me for SCG. I like what sphere does against combo, and we're always winning on mana so the two sided nature is usually not an issue.

Right now my deck looks like this:

~Land (26)
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
4x Vesuva
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Tropical Island
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Bojuka Bog

~Creatures (7)
4x Primeval Titan
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1x Kozilek, butcher of truth

~Spells (27)
4x Crop Rotation
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
3x Repeal
3x Show and Tell
3x Expedition Map
2x Candelabra of Tawnos
2x Pithing Needle
2x Swan Song

~Sideboard (15)
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Flusterstorm
3x Sphere of Resistance
2x Oblivion Stone
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Glacial Chasm


This is 99% the build I'm going to bring to Seattle. My only consideration at the moment is to cut the two Pithing Needles for a fourth Show and Tell and a fourth Repeal. I love having needle in against Wasteland and especially Liliana OTV who is often pretty brutal. That said, a SDT can combat Lili pretty well and streamlining the S&T and Repeal tempo portions of the deck seems appealing. Especially with MD SS to protect all those S&Ts.

Anybody else planning on hitting up Seattle? I'll do my best to represent.

[TimHarding]

1 [UL] Snap


Oh SNAP.




~Chalice is our BEST SB card against combo, as well as many other bad matchup decks. I see no reason not to 4x it. I'm also testing 3x Sphere of Resistance right now in the board, and that will probably be coming to Seattle with me for SCG. I like what sphere does against combo, and we're always winning on mana so the two sided nature is usually not an issue.

/~/

~Sideboard (15)
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Flusterstorm
3x Sphere of Resistance
2x Oblivion Stone
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Glacial Chasm


This is 99% the build I'm going to bring to Seattle. My only consideration at the moment is to cut the two Pithing Needles for a fourth Show and Tell and a fourth Repeal. I love having needle in against Wasteland and especially Liliana OTV who is often pretty brutal. That said, a SDT can combat Lili pretty well and streamlining the S&T and Repeal tempo portions of the deck seems appealing. Especially with MD SS to protect all those S&Ts.

Anybody else planning on hitting up Seattle? I'll do my best to represent.

Nice man good luck. I agree with the Venser meta call comments. I don't really pay too much mind to the Top Gear Karakas/Venser situation, I mean I know it can happen but that's nothing I will rely on for sure.

I'm interesting in your SB take though, you've got a ton of permanent based hate - which I envy. Can you explain what decks you've tuned this to play against? No T1 counters is a little risky at least in my meta and I'm curious what lines you are playing into for the bad combo matchups.

I like the Glacial in the board idea, but I bet ill face the same conundrum that we already have in the MD lol. But for me as long as that stupid elves deck is alive - I'll pack chasm.

[J-Funk]

Nice man good luck. I agree with the Venser meta call comments. I don't really pay too much mind to the Top Gear Karakas/Venser situation, I mean I know it can happen but that's nothing I will rely on for sure.

I'm interesting in your SB take though, you've got a ton of permanent based hate - which I envy. Can you explain what decks you've tuned this to play against? No T1 counters is a little risky at least in my meta and I'm curious what lines you are playing into for the bad combo matchups.

I like the Glacial in the board idea, but I bet ill face the same conundrum that we already have in the MD lol. But for me as long as that stupid elves deck is alive - I'll pack chasm.

Thanks, I'm really interested to see how this SB works out. What I have done is I've removed my turn 0 protection in favor of more consistent hate. More often than not, I would find myself sitting with a hand of countermagic against combo and watch as they systematically removed all the spells from my hand with Duress and Therapy until they have enough space to go off safely.

I also found that I almost never lose against storm when I lead Chalice on :0:. Follow up with chalice on :2: and you've got a hell of a lock.

I spent a lot of time playing High Tide this summer, and saw first-hand how brutal Thorn of Amethyst is to play through on the combo end. I like sphere better here because it gives it even more relevance against other decks (Elves is a good example) and doesn't hamstring us too much.

The final piece of the puzzle is the lack of turn 0 protection. That is, losing on the draw because I have no mana sources for Fluster/Swan song. I know lots of ANT players, it's a really popular deck here in Portland. In talking to them, Turn 1 is a dream scenario. It happens sometimes, but often not very safely. If they can ramp into the Ad Nauseam on turn one, they usually have no mana left floating and need to hit some really lucky cards on the flip.

Considering that I'm running Swan Song in the main-deck now, I figure I have better lines of play against Storm game 1, giving me a better chance to steal that game and have at least one more game on the play. This is all a lot of conjecture, but this thought process has freed up a lot of more sideboard slots for cards like Cage and Oblivion Stone.

Part of my inspiration was going back to Tony Murata's deck that won SCG San Diego last January. Look at his sideboard:

3 Chalice of the Void
2 Cursed Totem
2 Elephant Grass
4 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Venser, Shaper Savant


That's a lot of permanent based hate, and I'm sure that the staying power of permanents helped him get there. Spells are fragile, and tend to be easier to play around. Obviously the meta has changed, so some of the card choices change. Elephant grass isn't quite as relevant anymore, and I don't think Tabernacle does enough work here. Cursed totem is still a great card, but I like Graff better with how much reanimator is running around right now.

Those were my general thoughts. This is definitely a big experiment here, but I feel good about these choices. We'll see what happens, I suppose.

[Lemnear]

Bravo! These SB's look a lot better now :)

[Davek]

J-Funk, your sb looks much better against ANT/TES players, but to me it seems really soft to another deck which almost always top8s in SCG lately.. Omnitell. How do you side against it? I think that if you do well with the deck you may end facing at least one of them. That's the dilemma for me... more permanent hate to face stormy decks, or more counterspells to stand a chance against that brainless mono-u deck?
You can call me mad or noob, but i'm testing in sb one of the narrowest card ever printed... Extract! Why? Because i think it may be really good against both kinds of deck! ANT typically has 1 winning condition main deck (1 tendrils)... what about exiling it turn 1? Feel free to storm for infinite then! TES is another story, but what exiling Ad Nauseam? They'll probably have to go through the graveyard route, and we are much more prepared to face this. And Omnitell? Why not exiling their lonely Emrakul? They'll have to go trough the clash with Enter the Infinite as their last card in deck, but we play eldrazis, and if we are high on life (and it should be so, since they abosolutely do nothing except cantripping before going off), we should have about 20+ chances to reveal Kozilek or Emrakul and stop the combo, leaving them plain dead.

Let me know what you think

[Ralf]

J-Funk, your sb looks much better against ANT/TES players, but to me it seems really soft to another deck which almost always top8s in SCG lately.. Omnitell. How do you side against it? I think that if you do well with the deck you may end facing at least one of them. That's the dilemma for me... more permanent hate to face stormy decks, or more counterspells to stand a chance against that brainless mono-u deck?
You can call me mad or noob, but i'm testing in sb one of the narrowest card ever printed... Extract! Why? Because i think it may be really good against both kinds of deck! ANT typically has 1 winning condition main deck (1 tendrils)... what about exiling it turn 1? Feel free to storm for infinite then! TES is another story, but what exiling Ad Nauseam? They'll probably have to go through the graveyard route, and we are much more prepared to face this. And Omnitell? Why not exiling their lonely Emrakul? They'll have to go trough the clash with Enter the Infinite as their last card in deck, but we play eldrazis, and if we are high on life (and it should be so, since they abosolutely do nothing except cantripping before going off), we should have about 20+ chances to reveal Kozilek or Emrakul and stop the combo, leaving them plain dead.

Let me know what you think

If I may. His SB is not that "weak" to omnitell.
Chalice at 1 breaks cantrip. Chalice at 3 will put them on the dream hall plan.
Sphere delays cantrip & combo.
Flusterstorm also helps in this MU (and O-stone to a lesser extend and you have to keep a lot of mana)

About the "extract" thing. The idea is cute. But you will have to make at least room for 3 of it in the SB to challenge the odds of having it in your opening hands...
Is it what we need ?

[Davek]

If I may. His SB is not that "weak" to omnitell.
Chalice at 1 breaks cantrip. Chalice at 3 will put them on the dream hall plan.
Sphere delays cantrip & combo.
Flusterstorm also helps in this MU (and O-stone to a lesser extend and you have to keep a lot of mana)

About the "extract" thing. The idea is cute. But you will have to make at least room for 3 of it in the SB to challenge the odds of having it in your opening hands...
Is it what we need ?

I think you're really too optimistic, i think you're around 30/70 in favor of the omnitell player with that side. Chalice at 1 also kills all your manipulation. Suddenly, all your Tops, Crops, Swan Songs, Brainstorms, Maps, Candelabras and even Flusterstorms (even if just a bit) are crippled, making your deck able to just land-go, while our opponent still has strong tutors like Intuition and Cunning Wish. I think this is not the way.
About Chalice at 3, you can realistically hope to reach 6 mana not before turn 4, so even if it doesn't get countered your opponent will have about 4 lands in play. From there, playing 1-2 more mana sources to go through Dream Halls doesn't seem impossible.
Sphere and O-stone inmho do nothing here. Even if you drop sphere in resp to show and tell and lock the combo you've just delayed it by 1 turn. This is a working startegy for decks that apply a lot of early pressure, but we are not that kind of. He'll probably have 3 or so lands in play, so he'll pay :1: for Enter the Infinite, :1: for Cunning Wish, :1: for a random bounce spell and win from there. O-stone is even worse, you need your opponent to be brain-pudded to lose from that. Lets say you show it while he plays Omniscience, he retains priority and casts Enter the infinite, while in resp you sac the stone. He now has the entire deck in his hands, so he will probably go something like triple Petal/double petal + land -> Show and Tell again with a new Omniscience and win. That's why i think that sb is weak

[Ralf]

I think you're really too optimistic, i think you're around 30/70 in favor of the omnitell player with that side. Chalice at 1 also kills all your manipulation. Suddenly, all your Tops, Crops, Swan Songs, Brainstorms, Maps, Candelabras and even Flusterstorms (even if just a bit) are crippled, making your deck able to just land-go, while our opponent still has strong tutors like Intuition and Cunning Wish. I think this is not the way.
About Chalice at 3, you can realistically hope to reach 6 mana not before turn 4, so even if it doesn't get countered your opponent will have about 4 lands in play. From there, playing 1-2 more mana sources to go through Dream Halls doesn't seem impossible.
Sphere and O-stone inmho do nothing here. Even if you drop sphere in resp to show and tell and lock the combo you've just delayed it by 1 turn. This is a working startegy for decks that apply a lot of early pressure, but we are not that kind of. He'll probably have 3 or so lands in play, so he'll pay :1: for Enter the Infinite, :1: for Cunning Wish, :1: for a random bounce spell and win from there. O-stone is even worse, you need your opponent to be brain-pudded to lose from that. Lets say you show it while he plays Omniscience, he retains priority and casts Enter the infinite, while in resp you sac the stone. He now has the entire deck in his hands, so he will probably go something like triple Petal/double petal + land -> Show and Tell again with a new Omniscience and win. That's why i think that sb is weak

You are the one playing Chalice. You should play around your own hand/ and made the appropriate changes with your SB.
12 cantrips - 19/20 lands in Omni. An unanswered chalice at 1 will put him back and no he won't likely have 4 lands on turn 4... (maybe 2 + 1 sol land)

Thereafter, you resolve chalice @ 3. You have likely won. No bounce MD and they have to reach 5 mana for dream hall.
It is just a speed test here. the first to combo wins. But we have to reach at least 13 mana + ugin (and more if sphere) for Emrakul.

Lotus petal in Omni ? Did you ever play it/ against it ?

The MU is bad and will remain bad except if you devote half of your SB into it.
Forget about omni and hope you can dodge it.

I like this SB. Improve Storm MU and elves, does what it can against omni.

Now we could try to work on sideboard tables.

[TimHarding]

You are the one playing Chalice. You should play around your own hand/ and made the appropriate changes with your SB.
12 cantrips - 19/20 lands in Omni. An unanswered chalice at 1 will put him back and no he won't likely have 4 lands on turn 4... (maybe 2 + 1 sol land)

Thereafter, you resolve chalice @ 3. You have likely won. No bounce MD and they have to reach 5 mana for dream hall.
It is just a speed test here. the first to combo wins. But we have to reach at least 13 mana + ugin (and more if sphere) for Emrakul.

Lotus petal in Omni ? Did you ever play it/ against it ?

The MU is bad and will remain bad except if you devote half of your SB into it.
Forget about omni and hope you can dodge it.

I like this SB. Improve Storm MU and elves, does what it can against omni.

Now we could try to work on sideboard tables.

Omni/sneak definitely deserves half of the side board IMO. The choices made to combat these two should also be relevant against storm and others. Rock Lees last sideboard post is probably the best example of this. Early powerful counters - fluster, force, and swan song - which bring him to the later game kill card - glen elendra, venser Karakas, to lock out omni, glacial or elves and aggro, and trinket to chalice for storm. This amounts to a massive amount of defense adaptable for each match up. Plus this board still can fight chalice, moon, and loam. Could even use a cage with the same logic as the chalice tutor.

Going into an scg planning to dodge the easiest, cheapest, most borrowable combo deck is a terrible plan.

[Rock Lee]

Omni/sneak definitely deserves half of the side board IMO. The choices made to combat these two should also be relevant against storm and others. Rock Lees last sideboard post is probably the best example of this. Early powerful counters - fluster, force, and swan song - which bring him to the later game kill card - glen elendra, venser Karakas, to lock out omni, glacial or elves and aggro, and trinket to chalice for storm. This amounts to a massive amount of defense adaptable for each match up. Plus this board still can fight chalice, moon, and loam. Could even use a cage with the same logic as the chalice tutor.

Going into an scg planning to dodge the easiest, cheapest, most borrowable combo deck is a terrible plan.

Couldn't agree more. Keep in mind that the shift in sideboard that jfunk and others are doing now, and then being lauded for is by an individual anecdotal case. Tim and I have each tested against both ANT and TES for over a year with various builds and concepts, and we both agree that the aforementioned counterspell overload simply beats them. Perhaps if Lemnear did some actual testing rather than give nebulous iterations of beating one local Turbo Eldrazi player, someone piloting the most difficult competitive deck in any format to play, then I would give his thoughts more credit than mere hearsay.

For my own testing, I've been all over the place recently. MD'ing fow, md'ing swan song, going back to bonfire. We will see what I decide for come tomorrow at Feinstein's event, which I am almost certainly going to.

[Griselpuff]

Lemnear is very good as is rock. Good players beat bad players. What's so surprising about that? The two of you should play over mws or cockatrice to figure out who is right :)

[Lemnear]

Perhaps if Lemnear did some actual testing rather than give nebulous iterations of beating one local Turbo Eldrazi player, someone piloting the most difficult competitive deck in any format to play, then I would give his thoughts more credit than mere hearsay.

You may Check the TES thread or my reports before questioning my credibility. Ever thought the other way round, that your beaten ANT and TES players may play not on top level? I expected more

[Rock Lee]

You may Check the TES thread or my reports before questioning my credibility. Ever thought the other way round, that your beaten ANT and TES players may play not on top level? I expected more

I think you are confused. I do not attest any wins or losses to the deck's sideboard strategy's validity. I attribute my own extensive two-fisted testing with both ANT and TES against the deck.

I approach deck building in a scientific method approach, not an anecdotal one. When you put actual testing behind the deck with skill in both decks being established, then we can discuss the failings of other approaches equally.

[Lemnear]

I think you are confused. I do not attest any wins or losses to the deck's sideboard strategy's validity. I attribute my own extensive two-fisted testing with both ANT and TES against the deck.

I approach deck building in a scientific method approach, not an anecdotal one. When you put actual testing behind the deck with skill in both decks being established, then we can discuss the failings of other approaches equally.

I don't know how far the scientific method reaches if you try to make a point about how good Swan Song and Flusterstorm are against Xantid Swarm and conclude that the single angle of counterspells is enough to tame a deck which's SB is tailormade to beat a counter-overload

[HammafistRoob]

Except the chance of you actually drawing the bees are quite low. You basically must have bees or a massive amount of protection on top of actual combo pieces.

[Tammit67]

Except the chance of you actually drawing the bees are quite low. You basically must have bees or a massive amount of protection on top of actual combo pieces.

Seeing a 3 of in the top 10 or so cards with 4 ponder/brainstorm/probe doesn't seem that low to me.

Even if you bring the post board games to 50%, you have to win both games postboard since you probably didnt get there game 1. So the match win percentage is something like 70-30 in storms favor assuming you win some small amount of the time preboard and half the time post

[HammafistRoob]

Seeing a 3 of in the top 10 or so cards with 4 ponder/brainstorm/probe doesn't seem that low to me.

Even if you bring the post board games to 50%, you have to win both games postboard since you probably didnt get there game 1. So the match win percentage is something like 70-30 in storms favor assuming you win some small amount of the time preboard and half the time post

It's roughly 37 percent to see a 3 of in the top 10 cards. I really think the matchup is around 65-35 postboard.

[Lemnear]

It's roughly 37 percent to see a 3 of in the top 10 cards. I really think the matchup is around 65-35 postboard.

I asume it's 65-35 for TES in that case. It's not that there are Silences or Wish->Therapy somewhere in that calculation aside the possible issue of being able to cast the overload of counters with that manabase. Dunno how relyable you get something like double U going to turn several counter in your hand on.

Overall I'm pretty surprised about the negative vibe which followed my sincere advice. Claiming TES a good matchup with nearly being a goldfish game 1 and having a narrow SB's plan which storm is used to battle since the existance of Meerfolk and S&T, is confusing. Keep dismissing Chalice and Resistors; I'm looking forward facing more players in the future who think Flusterstorm/Swan Song/Mindbreak Trap/Spell Pierce make them combo-proved...

[TimHarding]

I asume it's 65-35 for TES in that case. It's not that there are Silences or Wish->Therapy somewhere in that calculation aside the possible issue of being able to cast the overload of counters with that manabase. Dunno how relyable you get something like double U going to turn several counter in your hand on.

Overall I'm pretty surprised about the negative vibe which followed my sincere advice. Claiming TES a good matchup with nearly being a goldfish game 1 and having a narrow SB's plan which storm is used to battle since the existance of Meerfolk and S&T, is confusing. Keep dismissing Chalice and Resistors; I'm looking forward facing more players in the future who think Flusterstorm/Swan Song/Mindbreak Trap/Spell Pierce make them combo-proved...

I'm actually into this vibe - little over zealous at times but this is a good argument. Funny thing is that TES and POST are the two decks I'm usually playing. I'm going to do a test session tmrw after my local weekly legacy and try to do a legit report so we can pick this apart.

However, when on my counter heavy plan my attitude in general entering game 2+3 is to counter aggressively - as there are many counters, cantrips even, until I can get a counter under a top protected from discard or stick a glen elendra/one of the fewer permanent based hates. I don't pile on chalices and thorns because they narrow the board too much for me. You're very right about chalice and if I expect some TES,ill use one and go stall,stall, Mage> chalice - and it's worked out well for me. But if TES draws the bugs, it's difficult to win for sure.

[civet five]

I'm actually into this vibe - little over zealous at times but this is a good argument. Funny thing is that TES and POST are the two decks I'm usually playing. I'm going to do a test session tmrw after my local weekly legacy and try to do a legit report so we can pick this apart.

However, when on my counter heavy plan my attitude in general entering game 2+3 is to counter aggressively - as there are many counters, cantrips even, until I can get a counter under a top protected from discard or stick a glen elendra/one of the fewer permanent based hates. I don't pile on chalices and thorns because they narrow the board too much for me. You're very right about chalice and if I expect some TES,ill use one and go stall,stall, Mage> chalice - and it's worked out well for me. But if TES draws the bugs, it's difficult to win for sure.

Has anyone ever tried testing Counterbalance in the board as one of the counters? It seems that we have the spells in the right CC range that once we get a top-lock in, we can maintain some semblance of control. Not sure exactly what that exact configuration would look like, but it seems worth durdling and trying. Also, I think that its underappreciated that you can float Force of Will with a top, reveal it to CB to counter an opposing FoW, then Brainstorm/top into it if you still need it in a war.

I was tooling around again with a TurboMulch version of Post and the idea came to mind that CounterTop could work as part of it. Since I cannot make that deck work at all, this seems the next best place to throw the idea out.

[(nameless one)]

TurboMulch?

Care to share?

[Rock Lee]

Has anyone ever tried testing Counterbalance in the board as one of the counters? It seems that we have the spells in the right CC range that once we get a top-lock in, we can maintain some semblance of control. Not sure exactly what that exact configuration would look like, but it seems worth durdling and trying. Also, I think that its underappreciated that you can float Force of Will with a top, reveal it to CB to counter an opposing FoW, then Brainstorm/top into it if you still need it in a war.

I was tooling around again with a TurboMulch version of Post and the idea came to mind that CounterTop could work as part of it. Since I cannot make that deck work at all, this seems the next best place to throw the idea out.

I tested CB in the sb, but UU on turn two is very rare with a strong hand.

[Rock Lee]

Overall I'm pretty surprised about the negative vibe which followed my sincere advice. Claiming TES a good matchup with nearly being a goldfish game 1 and having a narrow SB's plan which storm is used to battle since the existance of Meerfolk and S&T, is confusing. Keep dismissing Chalice and Resistors; I'm looking forward facing more players in the future who think Flusterstorm/Swan Song/Mindbreak Trap/Spell Pierce make them combo-proved...

I have no negative vibe against suggestions or criticism. I have a negative vibe against nonscientific, non statistical hearsay of anecdotal origins. I happen to have tested over 25 two fisted matches with both ANT and TES vs my matchup, without a preference to playing either side, simply to know if I needed to change sideboard choices/plan, and ANT/TES were simply curb-stomped. Of all the variants of combo that exist, storm based combo is by far (over 35% higher than the next best competitive combo deck) my best win percentage.

[thefreakaccident]

If I can beat delver with TES, I can beat this deck with it too. Just saying. Yes you have a good 'clock' with the power of your manabase and SnT, but you have no time to set anything up, the moment you 'combo' you are likely going to die, as you cannot ever give him a chance to go off unimpeded. This is the nature of combo in the new age of cantrips and the consistency it allows.

That matchup will not get better, simply because this deck requires too many cards to actually win the game (lands). By needing to run more lands, plus land tutors/enablers, show and tells, the critters, etc. etc. you actually just don't have the slots necessary to fight that archtype anymore at a sufficient level. This is why 'control' as we've known it has also fallen to the wayside.

This is why you need to focus on trying to remain the combo player in that matchup, which means more bombs, not counters. Lock pieces on the board are always going to serve you better than countermagic, you have the mana, laying it at one cripples their cantrip base, and if they don't already have their combo/disruption they have to get lucky as hell. Even if they have the disruption, you've at least forced them to interact with the board which can buy you time to get your combo online. If you wipe them off lands with a lockpiece still intact, well...

[Rock Lee]

If I can beat delver with TES, I can beat this deck with it too. Just saying. Yes you have a good 'clock' with the power of your manabase and SnT, but you have no time to set anything up, the moment you 'combo' you are likely going to die, as you cannot ever give him a chance to go off unimpeded. This is the nature of combo in the new age of cantrips and the consistency it allows.

That matchup will not get better, simply because this deck requires too many cards to actually win the game (lands). By needing to run more lands, plus land tutors/enablers, show and tells, the critters, etc. etc. you actually just don't have the slots necessary to fight that archtype anymore at a sufficient level. This is why 'control' as we've known it has also fallen to the wayside.

This is why you need to focus on trying to remain the combo player in that matchup, which means more bombs, not counters. Lock pieces on the board are always going to serve you better than countermagic, you have the mana, laying it at one cripples their cantrip base, and if they don't already have their combo/disruption they have to get lucky as hell. Even if they have the disruption, you've at least forced them to interact with the board which can buy you time to get your combo online. If you wipe them off lands with a lockpiece still intact, well...

For your assistance, I have highlighted all the locations where you can add values and playtesting to make your statement have any relevance to this conversation. Thank you, let me know when you have returned with such information, and in what quantities. Until then I will shelve your statement under "wild theory from naysayers."

[Lemnear]

If I can beat delver with TES, I can beat this deck with it too. Just saying. Yes you have a good 'clock' with the power of your manabase and SnT, but you have no time to set anything up, the moment you 'combo' you are likely going to die, as you cannot ever give him a chance to go off unimpeded. This is the nature of combo in the new age of cantrips and the consistency it allows.

That matchup will not get better, simply because this deck requires too many cards to actually win the game (lands). By needing to run more lands, plus land tutors/enablers, show and tells, the critters, etc. etc. you actually just don't have the slots necessary to fight that archtype anymore at a sufficient level. This is why 'control' as we've known it has also fallen to the wayside.

This is why you need to focus on trying to remain the combo player in that matchup, which means more bombs, not counters. Lock pieces on the board are always going to serve you better than countermagic, you have the mana, laying it at one cripples their cantrip base, and if they don't already have their combo/disruption they have to get lucky as hell. Even if they have the disruption, you've at least forced them to interact with the board which can buy you time to get your combo online. If you wipe them off lands with a lockpiece still intact, well...

The point is: You can't race decks like Belcher or TES with this one. You are doomed to be the control-player here, no matter what.


I have no negative vibe against suggestions or criticism. I have a negative vibe against nonscientific, non statistical hearsay of anecdotal origins. I happen to have tested over 25 two fisted matches with both ANT and TES vs my matchup, without a preference to playing either side, simply to know if I needed to change sideboard choices/plan, and ANT/TES were simply curb-stomped. Of all the variants of combo that exist, storm based combo is by far (over 35% higher than the next best competitive combo deck) my best win percentage.

I had to laugh after reading the first sentence, because all scientific and statistical calculation blow your claim out of the water. I have no clue how badly played those matchups were from the combo-side to give the impression that the matchup in particular and combo in general are/remain curb-stomps within all the massive bi-weekly (gut-feeling) changes of the 75 you suggest.

At this point, I have to question your "scientific" method to determine the matchup against combo, with a deck running the SB plan of Meerfolk and S&T (sans Leyline) which is well-explored how to Dismember. It's hilarious that you mark my teammates and my tournament experiences as "anecdotes and hearsay" while ignoring statistical facts, claim the complete opposite and call that "scientific", even if you completely ignore the differences between the storm decks and put those into a single Box.

If we could discuss our obvious VERY different experiences in that regards on a serious level this might have been helpful for both threads on the board, but I can't see a base if you discredit anything "I" bring to the table as "baseless speculation" of a random biased noob out of the web (you don't even care to adress any of my arguments up to this point) and "You" claim the intellectual and statistical surpremacy with "25 two-fisted games" you played from both sides of the table which are worthless to any calculations, unless you or the other players you faced are true masters of TES (a whole different beast of required skill than ANT).

At this point I could also create a hyperbole like you did with your first sentence. May try ... "So you and your playtest buddies fail to pilot one of the most difficult combo decks in the format? A CLEAR scientific evidence that the deck on the other side of the table is GENERALLY "curb-stomping" the matchup!"

[thefreakaccident]

Rocklee, you clearly misread that first statement, as it meant exactly what you ended up typing it out to be. I did mean at all, if I could take a single game out of a thousand against delver with TES, then I could beat this deck. Just saying.

If you are both combo decks, the faster, more consistent combo will likely win the first game correct? Do you have a way to outright win the game turn 1/2?


I'll get around to showing you the awesomeness that is trinisphere/chalice + manadenial, preempting your opponent (conceding if they go first and combo turn 1 however).

@Leamner-> thanks for saying it in much fewer words :P

As far as my strange terminology goes, I didn't really mean that you should kill the opponent first. I consider laying down disruptive permanents 'comboing', its a bad habit. My reasoning is that you can 'race' with permanent based disruption that makes it more difficult for the opponent to play spells, but you cannot 'race' with countermagic, if that makes any sense.

This mentality comes from being a maniacal bastard that prefers making opponents concede under locks than actually winning. It's so much more satisfying.

[Lemnear]

My reasoning is that you can 'race' with permanent based disruption that makes it more difficult for the opponent to play spells, but you cannot 'race' with countermagic, if that makes any sense.

It does. Strange way to put it, but the essence is correct. Sitting behind counterspells without pressure, just to see those dismembered by Duress, C.Therapy, Silence and Xantid Swarm isn't a game-winning strategy, nor is a turn 3 S&T a real gamebreaker against decks which easily make you loose 30+ life

[Davek]

Even if i'm a convinced Post-player, i think storm players are right. Anyway, i went to a 70-man tournament yesterday and ended 5th, winning a savannah. The list is the same of a couple of pages ago, while this is the sb:

4 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Swan Song
1 Thragtusk
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Repeal
1 Show and Tell

Ended 1st in swiss with 5-0-2 (i'm not sure if this is the way to write it, won 5 games and made 2 ID), beating UWR miracles, Canadian, Grixis Delver (the list that ended 1st about a month ago in a SCG tournament), UR Delver and Sneak&Show. Lost in top 8 to a some kind of next-level canadian with mishra's factories, standstill, cliques and lavamancer. The deck decided it had worked enough, giving me a single land on the opening hand both games (even after mulligans). All sb cards have been sided in, the MVP have been S&T and repeal. A merit note goes to venser/karakas duo that did high leverage in Sneak&show matchup while bouncing constantly the lands of my opponent and slowly eroding his life total.
I'm still convinced that some permanent-based hate against storm decks is required, but i don't want to play chalice, i think it's not effective enough against ANT while set on 0 not being coupled by fast aggro (and ANT is much more popular here than TES) I was thinking about Sphere of Resistance, but any suggestion is really appreciated.
...one last thing about Elves matchup. How could you say it's a bad matchup? I think i've never lost a single game against them by simply crop rotating into Glacial Chasm while they do not have any answer to it even post-sb.

[thefreakaccident]

Challice at one is so much better than chalice at zero, it is not even funny. 0 hits 8 mana sources (granted LED is a huge deal), while 1 shuts them off of all of their cantrips/probes/discard, not to mention rituals.

If you've only been playing chalice at 0, I can see why you think it's bad.

[Lemnear]

Challice at one is so much better than chalice at zero, it is not even funny. 0 hits 8 mana sources (granted LED is a huge deal), while 1 shuts them off of all of their cantrips/probes/discard, not to mention rituals.

If you've only been playing chalice at 0, I can see why you think it's bad.

Tbh, a turn 2 Chalice @ 1 can be too slow, especially in game 3. Chalice @ 0 at least locks out the fast Ad Nauseams (TES only. ANT doesn't care much about Chalice @ 0).

[Darkenslight]

Challice at one is so much better than chalice at zero, it is not even funny. 0 hits 8 mana sources (granted LED is a huge deal), while 1 shuts them off of all of their cantrips/probes/discard, not to mention rituals.

If you've only been playing chalice at 0, I can see why you think it's bad.

Am I wrong, then, in thinking that Chalices set at 0 and 2 make it very difficult to go off for Storm (non-Belcher), but Chalices at 0 and 1 make it damn-near impossible?

[thefreakaccident]

Oh I agree, you need chalice at one turn one. Banking on turn two chalice @ 1 is some crazy shit.

[Davek]

So Chalice seems, the solution... no love for Sphere/Thorn? About Chalice set to 1, i'm really a bit concerned about how many spells i'm playing it does cripple too, that's why i was thinking about something different.

[Lemnear]

So Chalice seems, the solution... no love for Sphere/Thorn? About Chalice set to 1, i'm really a bit concerned about how many spells i'm playing it does cripple too, that's why i was thinking about something different.

Thorn is good but has the same drawback as Chalice @ 1: 2 mana could be too slow.

Thorn was a solution to Storm in Elves too before facing the issue of being too slow against combo. Elves chopped the resistors in favor of more discard ... dunno if that solution is manageable/desired here. Chalice is also amazing vs. Elves, Delver and Burn ... just saying.

[Mjuz]

12 post plays nearly 20 cards CC 1. I think chalice 1 isnt the best choice. maybe u can slow the storm player, but u will be slowed more (if u havent the perfect hand), and he will find wish into abrupt decay = gg

[Lemnear]

12 post plays nearly 20 cards CC 1. I think chalice 1 isnt the best choice. maybe u can slow the storm player, but u will be slowed more (if u havent the perfect hand), and he will find wish into abrupt decay = gg

Decay isn't a sorcery

[Rock Lee]

I love how Lenmear is partaking in this smear campaign against my TES skills and ANT skills, when the two best pilots to each of those archtypes are in New England, and I have been playing against them for years. You clearly have been playing against novice Eldrazi players, but forget that I have been playing against Bryant Cook for years. I welcome extensive playtesting with any pilot you have for me since you consider my ability to pilot either ANT or TES, decks I consider easily 3 or 4 times easier to pilot than Turbo Eldrazi, as insufficient.

[HammafistRoob]

He's just trolling. Suggesting cards that come down turn 2, which could be good, but not on their own. I would suggest a mix between Thorn, Force, and Flusterstorm.

How has Swan Song been for you?

[Tammit67]

It's roughly 37 percent to see a 3 of in the top 10 cards. I really think the matchup is around 65-35 postboard.

Hypergeometric probability of at least one swarm of the 3 is 1-((3 choose 0)*(57 choose 10)/(60 choose 10)) = 42.7%. This is without cantripping and only using the draw step.

Let's put the matchup at 65% in your favor postboard and say 20-80 preboard (is that too harsh?). Thus you win if and only if


G1 L, G2-3 W
.8 *.65*.65
33.8%


G1 W, G2 W
.2 *.65
13%


G1 W, G2 L, G3 W
.2 *.35*.65
4.55%


= 51.35% match win percentage against TES (or whatever storm matchup you proposed those figures). I however submit the postboard matchup isn't that far in your favor.

If we instead drop your postboard matchup to 55-45 in your favor, we get:



G1 L, G2-3 W
.8 *.55*.55
24.2%


G1 W, G2 W
.2 *.55
11%


G1 W, G2 L, G3 W
.2 *.45*.55
4.95%


= 40.15% win percentage assuming 80-20 in TES favor preboard and 55-45 in Eldrazi's postboard.

Do you really think your sideboard tech, which honestly is little different between what other decks in the format hope to do against storm, swings the matchup from say 20-80 preboard to 65-35 post? How is storm successful if sideboards like yours would change the matchup a full 45%?

[Lemnear]

He's just trolling. Suggesting cards that come down turn 2, which could be good, but not on their own. I would suggest a mix between Thorn, Force, and Flusterstorm.

How has Swan Song been for you?

Interresting ... Chalice @ 0 (against the acceleration; especially post AN) is a turn 2 play for you and not good on their own if played @ 1 against Elves, Burn and ANT?

I can get behind your suggested SB as Thorn (doesn't count as tirn-2-play for you?) also blocks OmniTell, but my main concern was the blue-count to support FoW and the dilemma that the Locus lands interact poorly with (several) counterspells while needing double green for Titan as well. I felt, colorless ways to block TES would more fitting aside from Swarm/Silence laughing about Flusterstorm, Swan Song and MBT.

[TimHarding]

Do you really think your sideboard tech, which honestly is little different between what other decks in the format hope to do against storm, swings the matchup from say 20-80 preboard to 65-35 post? How is storm successful if sideboards like yours would change the matchup a full 45%?

When siding up to 14 cards, changing ~ 42% of the non land cards in the deck to hate, yes I believe a matchup can see a full 45% swing. However, I don't really buy any of this statistics stuff the assumptions are too large - especially for a showdown between two corner decks of the format. That being said, TES is obviously a rough matchup, which warrants such a heavy sideboard plan.

One thing I don't agree with is this assumption that the post player's plan is to keep a hand with two blue cards, fold their arms and emerge turn six unscathed. There is definitely pressure and interaction. Without any pressure, yes TES will shred through any wall of counter spells, as designed.

Compare to RUG:

RUG has to keep a hand with disruption, and likely hold back threats to keep mana available to use them. Flipped Delvers, Threshed Mongeese, and 4/5 goyfs only really end up becoming game ending threats turns 3-6. In addtion, their tax based counters aren't like the hard-counters used by post.

Post similarly needs to keep a hand with disruption. But at that same window of turn 3-6, they are threatening to end the game on the spot (yes, I'm aware of the grapeshots for 50, but often not an option). S&T or posts into early titan. They arrive at this state in a similar way to RUG, just countering stuff to buy the time.

It feels similar to me.

So my board this weekend (I did beat TES in the weekly), which I feel is well rounded for a lot of what troubles post:

4 Force of Will
4 Fluster Storm
2 Swan Song
2 Glen Elendra
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Glacial Chasm

[2x MD Trinkets]

With these cards sided in here are some of my paths:

Against BUGs: Force of Will bugs, Repeal Bugs, Race Bugs (they're nasty, but can be slow and take a card)

Silence: Force, Fluster, Swan, Mayyybe Glen Elendra if we get there.

Discard: I often have a counter to use on therapys, Defensive brainstorm, hide spells under top with bought time from other counters

ANY business spell, Including cantrips: I'll counter it, if available. The density of disruption usually allows a turn 1 counter and a turn 2 counter, with hope that a draw and a brainstorm/top gets more or arrives at pressure.

Goblins: TES shouldn't choose the goblins path.

Rituals, Accelerants: Unless its an obvious, rare, blow out counter, I will disregard them and focus on business since post counters aren't tax based (that is VERY relevant). Maybe bog the Rites>Flames path.

Turn three play from purchased time: S&T Titan/maybe eldrazi > GP's or Trinket Chalice @ 0.

Turn four play (which usually has 5 mana) from purchased time: S&T stuff, Glen Elendra, or Trinket Chalice 1

Chalice: As early as I can. 0, 1, or 2.

...so this creates quite the dance between TES and POST. The often neglected angle of this matchup is that TES is also very low on time. Do I feel on my heels when playing TES? Yes. Do I feel doomed? No. In fact I don't think I feel any different than I do with any other deck against TES, I just want to stop some shit and get to turn 3 where my deck better start doing something.


My chalice experience is positive with the trinket > chalice, or the lucky draw. I'd maybe take that board -1 swan song for +1 chalice if there were more TES. But right now I feel that post is weaker to Omni, and strong against the more popular ANT.

Thorn to me is just a bit too slow. Its an easy discard target, lowers the blue count, and several slots are needed because it isn't tutorable or castable off a library manipulation like said chalice.

Also, the cage is good with a very similar plan as above except the trinket destination is cage. And counters are to protect crops. Anyone else been having trouble with reanimator?

[zahori]

I've been a huge fan of spaghetti monsters since I first came across this archetype. I've played it quite a bit in different incarnations, and am hoping to make our eldrazi overlords proud at the GP. I have streamed Legacy Daily events and made some videos on youtube, although when Legacy semi-died on MTGO it became difficult to keep the videos up. Legacy is on the upswing on Magic Online and I will be streaming as many evening EST events as I can over the next few weeks before the GP. I would gladly welcome your thoughts and input on both specific deck selection and gameplay, so come and watch (archives will be on youtube as well).

I will be playing tonight at 9:30PM EST, with something similar to this decklist:

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Island
4 Tropical Island
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm

4 Crop Rotation
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Expedition Map
2 Candelabra of Tawnos

2 Show and Tell
2 Trinket Mage
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Repeal

Sideboard:
1 The Tabernacle of Pendrel Vale
2 Spell Pierce
1 Swan Song
2 Elephant Grass
1 Last Word
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
4 Force of Will



Some odd choices of pet cards I want to try, plus I've been cheap and haven't picked up Flusterstorms on Modo. If I am convinced I need them I will get them though, no card is out of the question at this point.

Hope to catch some of you online!

zahori on MTGO

@modozahori
twitch.tv/modozahori

[Tammit67]

When siding up to 14 cards, changing ~ 42% of the non land cards in the deck to hate, yes I believe a matchup can see a full 45% swing. However, I don't really buy any of this statistics stuff the assumptions are too large - especially for a showdown between two corner decks of the format. That being said, TES is obviously a rough matchup, which warrants such a heavy sideboard plan.

One thing I don't agree with is this assumption that the post player's plan is to keep a hand with two blue cards, fold their arms and emerge turn six unscathed.

My only assumptions was those are the matchup percentages and that each game was independent of another. I am in no way saying there isn't room for both parties to outplay each other, just looking to show how badly nearly autolosing game 1 is for your overall win chances for the match.

You can't challenge assumptions I didn't make.

[Lemnear]

...tying either side, simply to know if I needed to change sideboard choices/plan, and ANT/TES were simply curb-stomped. Of all the variants of combo that exist, storm based combo is by far (over 35% higher than the next best competitive combo deck) my best win percentage.


...when the two best pilots to each of those archtypes are in New England, and I have been playing against them for years. You clearly have been playing against novice Eldrazi players, but forget that I have been playing against Bryant Cook for years.


People care about results dude. I do too.

But as for your question, it's an insanely good match-up for us. I've played Jeremiah a handful of times, he's beaten me once. Although, it was mostly due to my deck shitting the bed.

Quod erat demonstrandum

[Rock Lee]

Quod erat demonstrandum

I have 3 matches against Bryant Cook in the last three years. one win, two losses, with one loss being a Legacy Challenge in New Jersey, when I was not playing a serious version and "testing" for the next day, and one of those losses was before Flusterstorm was a card, nevermind with this setup. To QED this as proof is laughable at the best. Keep trying though troll maximus.

[Lemnear]

I have 3 matches against Bryant Cook in the last three years. one win, two losses, with one loss being a Legacy Challenge in New Jersey, when I was not playing a serious version and "testing" for the next day, and one of those losses was before Flusterstorm was a card, nevermind with this setup. To QED this as proof is laughable at the best. Keep trying though troll maximus.

Yeah, it's quite funny how you stumble about your own words and bring up a lame justification like that. It would be a start if you'd acknowledge that variance is a factor in that matchup and storm isn't an auto-win.

Nice, that you bring up Flusterstorm again, which I asked about a page or so ago in regards to why you think that Flusterstorm, Swan Song, Spell Pierce and Mindbreak Trap should affect Xantid Swarm in a way that completely flips the matchup over to a "curb-stomp" and is at least halfways possible. I'm still waiting for an answer that targets the topic rather than me

[Rock Lee]

Yeah, it's quite funny how you stumble about your own words and bring up a lame justification like that. It would be a start if you'd acknowledge that variance is a factor in that matchup and storm isn't an auto-win.

Nice, that you bring up Flusterstorm again, which I asked about a page or so ago in regards to why you think that Flusterstorm, Swan Song, Spell Pierce and Mindbreak Trap should affect Xantid Swarm in a way that completely flips the matchup over to a "curb-stomp" and is at least halfways possible. I'm still waiting for an answer that targets the topic rather than me

Spell Pierce hasn't been in the deck for years, and I caution Europeans who often run it as being weak against specific matchups. The current build doesn't run mindbreak. So again your information is highly flawed. We will pretend that you are using the current build's sideboard layout, and in that I state that you need a 2x Xantid swarm against x4 Repeal and x4 FoW before a Glen Elendra or venser lock hits the battlefield. If you are seriously implying that you have favorable odds of this, then we should stop this discussion now, because you are even more enamored with lack of statistics than I currently envision.

[Hopo]

If you address combo by ~15 sideboard cards, you sometimes get there. It's a lot better than giving up, because the deck is great against anything fair. In theory it might look harsh but empirical reality check shows that TES is winnable so no need to be too strict about it either way. I don't approve the idea of always claiming bad pilots when TES loses. By that logic everybody sucks big time all the time as people actually lose in this game of magic. It is only dodging the fact that when the sideboard plan works, TES has hard time winning without excessive protection. The same way as Turbo eldrazi likely can't win without seeing excessive amount of hate. All the protection spells in hand reduce the possibility of combo and eldrazi player shouldn't keep less than two hate cards. Of course, hands with protection + first turn kill exist. So do hands with free counters, swarm-removal and resistors.

What should be obvious to everybody now, is that bees are really good in this matchup. There are not may outs to that, especially if you happened to side out your Repeals, which you shouldn't at least if you play Force of Will. First turn swarm is really, really bad news BUT if you don't accomplish anything behind it during the first, say, two turns, it will get removed and you will be threatened by something big or more permanent hate.

[Lemnear]

I see the option to repeal the Bug, but don't see the issue to simply replay it unless you FoW it immediately after the bounce, which is all the Xantids job: baiting or negating counters.

4cc SB one-offs are a bit unrelyable as is having Karakas + 2 blue sources for Venser paired with FoW and/or Repeal (asuming TES doesn't find another Swarm, Silence, Duress, Therapy for the next turns), don't you think? These are exactly the rare cornercases which are a joke to present as statistical evidence.

Let's stop this here Jerry. It was not my intention to turn this thread into a battlefield.

[TimHarding]

I see the option to repeal the Bug, but don't see the issue to simply replay it unless you FoW it immediately after the bounce, which is all the Xantids job: baiting or negating counters.

4cc SB one-offs are a bit unrelyable as is having Karakas + 2 blue sources for Venser paired with FoW and/or Repeal (asuming TES doesn't find another Swarm, Silence, Duress, Therapy for the next turns), don't you think? These are exactly the rare cornercases which are a joke to present as statistical evidence.

Yeah I agree that those end games are nothing to rely on, without permission leading up to it but they are at least relevant. I feel better playing the interaction game and working towards a SnT, Glen, venser, Mage or permanent in hand over having a Goyf or something. Even as lame as the repeal bounce is, it is at least some borrowed time..which then the density hopefully allows the game to continu. I approach TES with a just-get-to-next turn attitude, because we also have a combo finish..

I want to talk about reanimator, you know a deck with more than 2% of the meta. I've found crops to be a little fragile without very good crop and counter spell hands, so in similar fashion to Chalice I added a cage as my trinket 'destination' but cannot decide if it should be a crypt for speed concerns..

[Kap'n Cook]

Seems like a cockatrice grudge match is in order.

[TimHarding]

Seems like a cockatrice grudge match is in order.

Second this! This should happen all across The Source. All matchups.

[Rock Lee]

Yeah I agree that those end games are nothing to rely on, without permission leading up to it but they are at least relevant. I feel better playing the interaction game and working towards a SnT, Glen, venser, Mage or permanent in hand over having a Goyf or something. Even as lame as the repeal bounce is, it is at least some borrowed time..which then the density hopefully allows the game to continu. I approach TES with a just-get-to-next turn attitude, because we also have a combo finish..

I want to talk about reanimator, you know a deck with more than 2% of the meta. I've found crops to be a little fragile without very good crop and counter spell hands, so in similar fashion to Chalice I added a cage as my trinket 'destination' but cannot decide if it should be a crypt for speed concerns..

Grafdigger's Cage has the added bonus of being useful against Elves, but is dead against storm. I personally think the card is dead, and were I to run a reanimator-hate card in the Trinket Mage slot, it would likely be AEther Spellbomb. As you know well Tim, but apparently out combo players don't, one of the reasons the deck has so many counters in the side, is that against the vast majority of combo decks, you can simply include counters, side out combo pieces, and play the control deck.

[Rock Lee]

Second this! This should happen all across The Source. All matchups.

I offered. They ignored it. Of course. Better to slander, and lay a last punch-and-leave approach than actually test. Who does that? Blasphemous.

[Lemnear]

I offered. They ignored it. Of course. Better to slander, and lay a last punch-and-leave approach than actually test. Who does that? Blasphemous.

Not checking this thread for a few hours due to work isn't "ignoring". I'd love to throw around a few Tendrils afterwork. Time zones could be annoying.

[Kap'n Cook]

@tim Harding.

Just made a thread for grudge matches in community board lol. It'd be pretty sweet to watch if you two (rock/lem) can actually organize something

[Lemnear]

@tim Harding.

Just made a thread for grudge matches in community board lol. It'd be pretty sweet to watch if you two (rock/lem) can actually organize something

Could be useful if Jerry calms down a bit. I dislike the aggressive tone over the last 3 pages

[Rock Lee]

Not checking this thread for a few hours due to work isn't "ignoring". I'd love to throw around a few Tendrils afterwork. Time zones could be annoying.

You're confused. I made a post 2 pages back saying I would gladly settle this with extensive playtesting online, but you continued along the same line of anecdotal parlance. I am not upset in the slightest. As with anyone in this thread, I simply shoo away people who won't substantiate their claims with testing.

[Lemnear]

You're confused. I made a post 2 pages back saying I would gladly settle this with extensive playtesting online, but you continued along the same line of anecdotal parlance. I am not upset in the slightest. As with anyone in this thread, I simply shoo away people who won't substantiate their claims with testing.

I don't know how extensive those tests can be considering my work schedule and Family obligations, but a few games should be possible at times.

I'd prefer this thread going back to discussing the deck and not a particular matchup anymore. This thread deserves better than the last pages. :)

[Rock Lee]

Bane of Progress has some interesting merit.

[TimHarding]

Bane of Progress has some interesting merit.

Better than spine?

[Rock Lee]

Better than spine?

Much better than spine, as you can bring it in against most forms of aggro and kill off of your own artifact overload. Sadly no way to abuse top draws with it without insane cards inclusions, but I would bring this in against anything running vial, stoneforge, or chalice.

[Rock Lee]

Restore is also interesting, but needs instant or cantrip.

[MtgVector]

I've been playing the list below on mtgo. So far, this are my results (in no specific order):

1x W vs Miracles
2x W vs Esperblade
2x W vs RDW
2x W vs Doomsday
2x W vs Jund
1x L vs Shardless Bug
1x L vs Goblins
1x W vs Elves
1x W vs Painter Stone
1x W vs Hide Tide

The only highlight this version offers in the 4x Swan Song, which in my opinion is very powerful in this deck and is one of the main reasons I've been able to maintain a high winning percentage.


Deck: Turbo Eldrazi

//Main
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Primeval Titan
4 Swan Song
4 Show and Tell
2 Pithing Needle
4 Crop Rotation
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
4 Repeal
4 Brainstorm

//Sideboard
4 Flusterstorm
2 All is Dust
3 Thragusk
1 Pitihng Needle
1 Oblivion Stone
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Venser, Shaper Savant

Display deck statistics

[J-Funk]

I've been playing the list below on mtgo. So far, this are my results (in no specific order):

1x W vs Miracles
2x W vs Esperblade
2x W vs RDW
2x W vs Doomsday
2x W vs Jund
1x L vs Shardless Bug
1x L vs Goblins
1x W vs Elves
1x W vs Painter Stone
1x W vs Hide Tide

The only highlight this version offers in the 4x Swan Song, which in my opinion is very powerful in this deck and is one of the main reasons I've been able to maintain a high winning percentage.


Vector, have you been testing in Dailys, or just single matches?

[MtgVector]

Vector, have you been testing in Dailys, or just single matches?

These are all from 2-man q's. I rarely have time to play DEs, if I do, I would play this. Normally I play decks I personally have success with, which is the case with the list I posted.

[Maagler]

Tempt with discovery
Sorcery Rare
Tempting offer — Search your library for a land card and put it onto the battlefield. Each opponent may search his or her library for a land card and put it onto the battlefield. For each opponent who searches a library this way, search your library for a land card and put it onto the battlefield. Then each player who searched a library this way shuffles it.

Could this be useful in the deck? If you are playing three opponents you can get up to four lands!

[203995014]

Tempt with discovery
Sorcery Rare
Tempting offer — Search your library for a land card and put it onto the battlefield. Each opponent may search his or her library for a land card and put it onto the battlefield. For each opponent who searches a library this way, search your library for a land card and put it onto the battlefield. Then each player who searched a library this way shuffles it.

Could this be useful in the deck? If you are playing three opponents you can get up to four lands!

Wouldn't Oracle of Mul Daya/Explore/Crop Rotation usually be better?

[Maagler]

Wouldn't Oracle of Mul Daya/Explore/Crop Rotation usually be better?

Not when you are playing against multiple people, or drunk like me...

[alphacat]

Tempt with discovery
Sorcery Rare
Tempting offer — Search your library for a land card and put it onto the battlefield. Each opponent may search his or her library for a land card and put it onto the battlefield. For each opponent who searches a library this way, search your library for a land card and put it onto the battlefield. Then each player who searched a library this way shuffles it.

Could this be useful in the deck? If you are playing three opponents you can get up to four lands!

Keep in mind that for most opponents, this can be used to find wasteland, so you'll net one land a lot of the times.

[Maagler]

There if is also a new card that destroys all nonbasic lands that could be bad for us.

[MtgVector]

There if is also a new card that destroys all nonbasic lands that could be bad for us.

Yeah, that's bad. Not sure if it would spawn new archetypes that abuse it or it will just add onto heavy red-based decks, but I don't consider it a game changing card as long as it's counterable.

[maeltne]

Trying to find some placing decklists (i.e. on mtgtop8 and thecouncil.es), but I can't seem to find any. Has this deck not placed yet, or are those sites not properly classifying it.

[Darkenslight]

Trying to find some placing decklists (i.e. on mtgtop8 and thecouncil.es), but I can't seem to find any. Has this deck not placed yet, or are those sites not properly classifying it.

It's Top8'ed multiple SCG Opens and has a following, but most places classify it as "12-Post", which may be where the confusion lies.

[civet five]

Trying to find some placing decklists (i.e. on mtgtop8 and thecouncil.es), but I can't seem to find any. Has this deck not placed yet, or are those sites not properly classifying it.

The Council calls it Post Ramp: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Post%20Ramp&format=Legacy

[Rock Lee]

Won my Byes for GPT DC this last weekend, but only on a technicality. :laugh: Lost to absurd draws against Jund in the finals, but he didn't want/need the byes

This is the version I ran:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
3 [ZEN] Island (8)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [US] Show and Tell
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [GP] Repeal

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void

In the swiss I played against:
"Oops all spells" -> Win. He turn 1 kills me. oops. Game 2, he pacts for esg, and I fluster his manamorphose so he scoops. Game 3, he knows I have swan song, but goes for an innocuous dark rit, I swan song it, and he scoops, knowing I have glen elendra, revealing multiple Rits and 2 spys that would've won through the swan song otherwise.
"Tezzeret Control" -> Win. (with a deck misreg Game 1 loss thanks to writing "Glen Elendra" rather than "Glen Elendra Archmage" due to being rushed writing my list
"Sneaky Show" -> Win. Game 1 He turn 2 Show & Tell'd Emrakul vs my Ulamog and lost his 3 permanents. Game 2 he went for an intuition-> Blood moon, that was swan song'd, and backed up with flusterstorm. Then incredible counterspell wall won it.
"Belcher" -> ID, since I want belcher in the Top 8, and even if we lose the next round I get in.
"Omni-Show" -> Win-ish. I win the match heartily. Game 1 he is cantripping into lands lands lands, not knowing I have venser ontop of my library with a SDT. But it isn't needed as I turn 4 Kozilek and he has a turn 5 kill one turn too late. Still unsure if the venser would've saved it. Game 2, I have the world's largest counterwar, allowing dream halls to stick (which I often do) and just riding out advantage against them. Instead of just beating him though, I am closely watching the match of Tim Harding, since I want him in the top 8. If Tim loses, I can attempt a dreamcrush, but if Tim wins, and gets in (with his superior tiebreakers) then I can be a nice guy and id, since he would get in anyway and I want to be in a separate tier from Tim, but would likely be in the same tier as omni. So when my opponent wants to concede due to me having 7 cards in hand, lethal on the board in many avenues, and him having 1 card in hand, I ask him to let me durdle while we see Tim's result. He allows it, and I don't attack to kill him for several turns, while developing my board, being a hamster in a wheel. Tim wins, so I offer a draw and he accepts.
Top 8
Quarterfinals: "Jund" -> Win. He admits to not having Liliana in the deck, the card that keeps me down the best, and it shows itself. I have double repeal for his goyf and I show and tell on turn 5 and titan simply takes it after some venser abuse. Game 2, he gets the nut draw. Thoughtseize into triple waste, double hymn (hitting 2x show and tell out of a 7 card hand that would've ended him next turn), followed by goyf, bob, bloodbraid, thoughseize. sass. Game 3, he mulls to 5, and I Show and Win.
Semfinals: "Affinity" -> Win. he plays 8 cards on turn 1. ugg. Then swings for 13 on turn 2. uggg. Then I land a show and tell titan before he can do that again, chasm'ing, and winning it before he rips a tezz. Game 2, he plays 5 cards on turn 1, one of which is chalice on 1. BALLS. I gave him this advice a few weeks back, saying it hurts me more than armageddon. Sadly, it is true, my hand is 4 cmc 1 spells, show and tell, and 3 lands. I draw a show and tell, but fear the hell out of his hand he's holding back, as a blood moon/magus/archon will just end me. I eventually am forced to go for the show and tell due to pressure, and he has cmc 1 mana in his hand, thank goodness. I have to show and tell in an expedition map, to win the game next turn, which I do.
Finals: "Jund" -> Loss. Game 1 he has triple waste in 5 turns with double goyf, bob, double hymn. brutal. Game 2, I keep on 2x repeal, 2x land, 2x show and tell, Fatty. He lays a drs, or I draw a brainstorm, map, land, or top and I win. None of those things happen for 8 turns. horrible.

[maeltne]

I'm curious why some of the 'go to' land searching cards don't seem to be played.

I.e. Sylvan Scrying, Sakura Tribe Elder, Solemn Simulacrum, Knight of the Reliquary.

Is Top + Brainstorm + saclands/shuffle effects already enough?

[HammafistRoob]

Crop Rotation and Expedition Map are just better here. I've seen mono green lists that use Sylvan though.

[TimHarding]

Instead of just beating him though, I am closely watching the match of Tim Harding, since I want him in the top 8. If Tim loses, I can attempt a dreamcrush, but if Tim wins, and gets in (with his superior tiebreakers) then I can be a nice guy and id, since he would get in anyway and I want to be in a separate tier from Tim, but would likely be in the same tier as omni.

Post player's gotta look out! Post v. Post GPT finals would've been legit.. except I never win the mirror..

Sweet win for Rock Lee. There was a lot of crazy stuff that afternoon, the 2 show and tell hymn rip incl, some pretty solid wins. I ripped my MD Forest one game when my only out was a green source, hilarious.

Yeah was able to get into the top 8 of the same GPT. Beat a few tough match ups which made me feel really great about my current list. However, I lost to Belcher both in the swiss and the first round of top 8. This is very frustrating because they were also my first two match losses to Belcher playing Post. My board was:

4 Force of Will
4 Fluster Storm
2 Swan Song
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Glacial Chasm

[2 Trinket Main, 1 Needle - Main]

Even though with this board I still feel favored to win against Belcher. Some note worthy steps with the board plan have definitely softened the defense against the YOLO deck:

No Mindbreak Traps: There used to be 3-4, the card is tailor made for Belcher. But since swan song and other meta movements, the traps simply don't cover enough ground to legitimately compete for several spots that force of wills occupy. However, they were missed.

No Tabernacle: The majority of the losses were to the warrens. This left me with only a chasm path - which doesn't always (and didn't always) get there. I still don't think its good enough for a slot, maybe if pyromancer and goblins pick up. It'd probably be my 17th sideboard slot, after a 3rd Glen Elendra.

Chasm Side: Wrong side of the Chasm game this week. Left it in the board & I wanted it almost every match, but if you know this deck then I am preaching to the choir.

I also like to try to attack with chasm out, a lot.



Finals: "Jund" -> Loss. Game 1 he has triple waste in 5 turns with double goyf, bob, double hymn. brutal. Game 2, I keep on 2x repeal, 2x land, 2x show and tell, Fatty. He lays a drs, or I draw a brainstorm, map, land, or top and I win. None of those things happen for 8 turns. horrible.

I've yet to grab a single game against that particular Jund player, and my matches played out strikingly similar. G1 relevant card slaughter and G2 my deck does nothing, probably too busy bandaging its ass after G1.

Which makes me want to do something about Jund.. but then we enter that conundrum of "how do I tune against a vanilla, flavorless, semi-auto pilot, aggro, occasional free-win deck" .. because you sort of don't.. but my subtle moves over the last few months because of it have been leaning on tops, maxing out on maps, two trinket mages, and 1 other 2/2 - usually oracle [which has been great], just to compete with advantage, block, and hope they abrupt decay something. What is everyone's Jund board plan, and plan in general?

Who is going to jam post at DC? We should meet up.

[Rock Lee]

I've yet to grab a single game against that particular Jund player, and my matches played out strikingly similar. G1 relevant card slaughter and G2 my deck does nothing, probably too busy bandaging its ass after G1.

Which makes me want to do something about Jund.. but then we enter that conundrum of "how do I tune against a vanilla, flavorless, semi-auto pilot, aggro, occasional free-win deck" .. because you sort of don't.. but my subtle moves over the last few months because of it have been leaning on tops, maxing out on maps, two trinket mages, and 1 other 2/2 - usually oracle [which has been great], just to compete with advantage, block, and hope they abrupt decay something. What is everyone's Jund board plan, and plan in general?

The best Jund card out there is Obstinate Baloth, which janky-as-it-is, I might consider. Having an even matchup against the deck is just too risky. Obstinate baloth would also come in against anything aggro'y, and could cause a basic forest to have some merit.

[Hopo]

I wonder if you are playing that much against non-Griselbrand-combo that you really don't want Pithing Needle maindecked. To me it's one of the better cards in the deck as outside, say Omnitell and storm combo, it always hits something relevant to slow the game down to a more convenient pace for you. Be it Deathrite Shaman or Wasteland, Liliana or Grim Lavamancer. That's a whole bunch of Jund cards, by the way.

[LLCoolDave]

I've had reasonable success with Pithing Needle and the threat of Oblivion Stone against Jund in the past, but the deck seems to have evolved beyond both of these. I still managed to lose to it at the GP by being hit with 7 Hymns in 3 games, but that's variance for you. The newer builds feel a lot more comboy than control to me, not yet sure what to think about that. I'll test your latest list this evening and see how I like it. Never been much of a fan of the Show and Tells before but they seem rather essential to the newer builds.

[Rock Lee]

As I mentioned several times in the past, decks you want pithing needle against run abrupt decay or don't care enough. Sneaky Show is a joke now with swan song, and omni/storm essentially has nothing to name. Pithing needle is a crutch no longer needed.

[Hopo]

As I mentioned several times in the past, decks you want pithing needle against run abrupt decay or don't care enough. Sneaky Show is a joke now with swan song, and omni/storm essentially has nothing to name. Pithing needle is a crutch no longer needed.

Apparently it is a somewhat meta sensitive card. I get too much value out of it to discard it. If someone Decay's my needle, it's one less decay for the Oblivion stones and candelabras, but Abrupt Decay in general is the least of my worries when playing this deck, even with needles in play. But I understand your reasoning and how it reflects your environment.

[Lemnear]

The only reason to keep Pithing Needle in would be a Recurring Wasteland Engine like Life from the Loam or such but DRS and RIP pushed them out of the metagame. I doubt random Wastelands and Planeswalker warrant playing needle

[Hopo]

The only reason to keep Pithing Needle in would be a Recurring Wasteland Engine like Life from the Loam or such but DRS and RIP pushed them out of the metagame. I doubt random Wastelands and Planeswalker warrant playing needle

I would also keep it in main when expecting to face mostly Wasteland decks. Which I do. I agree with the part regarding random wastelands.

[Darkenslight]

With regard to Tim's SB, I wonder about the Jund matchup - could you move the Chasm main and use that spot for the miser's Needle in an Jund/aggro-heavy meta, or are there better options for shutting off Wastes?

[Rock Lee]

I would also keep it in main when expecting to face mostly Wasteland decks. Which I do. I agree with the part regarding random wastelands.

This is why Tim and I play 3+ basics. Waste recursion decks lose to Show and Tell, so you just land basics/vesuvas until you get to 3, and windmill fattie.

[TimHarding]

With regard to Tim's SB, I wonder about the Jund matchup - could you move the Chasm main and use that spot for the miser's Needle in an Jund/aggro-heavy meta, or are there better options for shutting off Wastes?

I agree and I do like the needle against Jund and that's why right now I have a needle in one of the more flexible MD slots. I don't play it as a crutch for any matchups, but rather as 1 of hedge removal/answer over repeal 4. It's often a 1 colorless mana vindicate, that will improve most board states. With two trinkets, the "answer" density greatly increases for little cost. I'll often tutor up to stop whatever they're developing - planeswalkers, equipment, vials, recur wastes - just as another avenue to buy time. I've really liked it in this role and it's won me far more games than lost. And yes it's an easy side out game 2-3 against omni and storm. But it's a solid end target against sneak and belcher, that I welcome. But it's definitely not like I'm planning on it or any number of them to answer waste. As rock lee said waste decks are beyond needle the best avenue is basics and manipulation to find a show and tell. Oracle is also nice here, and I am running 1 and enjoy it.

[HammafistRoob]

Jeremiah, this is definitely a late after thought and I meant to ask you this on site after your match. It's also quite a controversial topic in general.

At the DHG GPT in your top 8 match, why didn't you try to sneak some 1cc spells through his Chalice on 1? I'm pretty sure there's a newer rule in place that states that each player is responsible for their own triggers, so it can't really hurt to try and sneak something in there every few turns or so. Overall, it most likely wouldn't have changed the outcome of the match, but it's something to think about.

[Rock Lee]

Jeremiah, this is definitely a late after thought and I meant to ask you this on site after your match. It's also quite a controversial topic in general.

At the DHG GPT in your top 8 match, why didn't you try to sneak some 1cc spells through his Chalice on 1? I'm pretty sure there's a newer rule in place that states that each player is responsible for their own triggers, so it can't really hurt to try and sneak something in there every few turns or so. Overall, it most likely wouldn't have changed the outcome of the match, but it's something to think about.

Should've. I am often blind to plays like this with the new rules, presuming my opponent is playing to their best.

[TimHarding]

Some fun development: I moved 4 force and 3-4 other counters (fluster mostly) into the main, and upped the SnT to 4 and played with additional cantrips. It played like a much more stable version of sneak and show. With the curve on 3/6 rather than 3/5. The huge difference is that post loves the late game, whereas sneak can't keep the heat on. I used a sneak and show board - and leyline is nice ..

No conclusions here, just some food for thought.

[civet five]

I had a really nasty experience against Goblins yesterday at my local monthly, and went 0-3 against them, 2-6 in games. I didn't have a Tabernacle in my 75 or any sweepers like OStone or All Is Dust, and basically had nightmare after nightmare. Stingscourger totally neutered my Show and Tells, and the two games I did won were 35-minute grindfests where I had to ramp to a double-cast Emrakul turn, then annihilator the board 6 at a time turn after turn.

I think I had some bad luck in my matchups yesterday, running into Goblins, Goblins, DNT, Goblins - basically 4 matches in a row against Wasteland, Port, Thalia, with a sideboard mostly built to beat combo and midrange. Ironically, I wished I had played a Miracles version of the deck, which would have made for some interesting games instead.

[TimHarding]

I had a really nasty experience against Goblins yesterday at my local monthly, and went 0-3 against them, 2-6 in games. I didn't have a Tabernacle in my 75 or any sweepers like OStone or All Is Dust, and basically had nightmare after nightmare. Stingscourger totally neutered my Show and Tells, and the two games I did won were 35-minute grindfests where I had to ramp to a double-cast Emrakul turn, then annihilator the board 6 at a time turn after turn.

I think I had some bad luck in my matchups yesterday, running into Goblins, Goblins, DNT, Goblins - basically 4 matches in a row against Wasteland, Port, Thalia, with a sideboard mostly built to beat combo and midrange. Ironically, I wished I had played a Miracles version of the deck, which would have made for some interesting games instead.

Did you have any FOW or Needle? My current configuration is also very vulnerable to Goblins; however, I do not feel that the deck is popular in legacy right now - which keeps me from devoting any slots to it. Force and needle are what I'd lean on because the go-to cards o-stone and Elephant Grass just don't cover enough of the format IMO. It's tough too because repeal just doesn't hurt Goblins like it hurts tempo - the only real presence of aggro in the format.

However, if your local meta is THAT intense - the miracle build just might do it lol, but I don't think an SCG or GPT level tourney would ever be attacking enough to get me running another color for a miracle sweeper. O - stone is where its at.

[civet five]

Did you have any FOW or Needle? My current configuration is also very vulnerable to Goblins; however, I do not feel that the deck is popular in legacy right now - which keeps me from devoting any slots to it. Force and needle are what I'd lean on because the go-to cards o-stone and Elephant Grass just don't cover enough of the format IMO. It's tough too because repeal just doesn't hurt Goblins like it hurts tempo - the only real presence of aggro in the format.

However, if your local meta is THAT intense - the miracle build just might do it lol, but I don't think an SCG or GPT level tourney would ever be attacking enough to get me running another color for a miracle sweeper. O - stone is where its at.

I had 1 Needle maindeck as a Trinket Mage target and 4 FoW in the sideboard. I boarded in the Forces but they never hurt them that much. I definitely did not expect to run into 3 Gobbos in 4 rounds, though the fact that I was in the losers bracket sorta speaks to how they were fairing. Just disappointing that I kept running into them.

When I was speaking of Miracles, I meant the old U/G build that ran 4 Devastation Tide and 4 Temporal Mastery. Ironically enough, there were many times yesterday that I was wishing I was drawing Devastation Tide and Mastery, as they would have bought tons more time than a triple-Vesuva'ed Glacial Chasm could.

The problem I really learned going against that many tribal decks was how well they build board presence. I sat under Chasm trying to stall, while they just kept Matron'ing for Ringeleaders and Krenko-jamming the board. Against Delver and Cascade decks, they usually don't have more than a few creatures out, and can't always represent lethal against a Chasm. Krenko just kept calling for reinforcements while I committed suicide to age counters.

[Mockingbird]

Challice at one is so much better than chalice at zero, it is not even funny. 0 hits 8 mana sources (granted LED is a huge deal), while 1 shuts them off of all of their cantrips/probes/discard, not to mention rituals.

If you've only been playing chalice at 0, I can see why you think it's bad.

Tbh, a turn 2 Chalice @ 1 can be too slow, especially in game 3. Chalice @ 0 at least locks out the fast Ad Nauseams (TES only. ANT doesn't care much about Chalice @ 0).

My rule of thumb is that Chalice for 0 makes sure that you live long enough set another Chalice to one or two. Personally, I try to aim for two because stopping Infernal Tutor and Burning Wish slows their deck to a crawl while letting me still be able to cast Flusterstorm and our other important 1 drops (but against storm, namely Flusterstorm). But I'm not afraid of 1 in that match-up. Just like I go for 0 because Chalice stops twelve accelerators in the deck, buying me time to get more responses.

[Monkey_Island]

Some fun development: I moved 4 force and 3-4 other counters (fluster mostly) into the main, and upped the SnT to 4 and played with additional cantrips. It played like a much more stable version of sneak and show. With the curve on 3/6 rather than 3/5. The huge difference is that post loves the late game, whereas sneak can't keep the heat on. I used a sneak and show board - and leyline is nice ..

No conclusions here, just some food for thought.

Interesting that you mentioned that because I was considering bringing Leylines in the side and then moving the fourth Show And Tell in the main.
As for up-ing (is that correct english???) the counters in the main, I am also considering this option beacause even against fair decks I sometimes board FOWs and Flusterstorms...
In the new configuration you're testing, did you remove the Maps and Repeals (+ Needle?) in place of the counters + additional cantrpis?

[Hopo]

There was a Turbo (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=60146) deck going 8-0 or 7-1 in the invitational. Seems super solid except for the lack of combo tools in sideboard. A full set of Pithing Needles seems a lot but can't complain, I play 3 copies.

[Ralf]

There was a Turbo (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=60146) deck going 8-0 or 7-1 in the invitational. Seems super solid except for the lack of combo tools in sideboard. A full set of Pithing Needles seems a lot but can't complain, I play 3 copies.

4 chalice + 4 fluster is not what I would call "lack of combo tools" in SB.
8 dedicated slots against combo is not "THAT" bad.

[Hopo]

4 chalice + 4 fluster is not what I would call "lack of combo tools" in SB.
8 dedicated slots against combo is not "THAT" bad.

Many people play something between 12-15 so it's quite thin compared to that. Combo is your ~only bad matchup so the sideboard should reflect that.

EDIT: formatting

[TimHarding]

Many people play something between 12-15 so it's quite thin compared to that. Combo is your ~only bad matchup so the sideboard should reflect that.

EDIT: formatting

Props to him for a good invitational showing. I can't decide if the list was a clever meta call, or shipped straight from top8s of many months ago. He actually had 10 slots with venser. Which is still a lot. I agree and also prefer more, but also there's not going to be too much crappy combo in an invitational field, mostly sneak (as we all saw) where those needles probably did some real work. Either way this deck is normally a perfect choice for invitational metas, IMO. Hope we can get some recap from him.

[NEELEY]

so i recently seen this forum is more active than mtgsalvation. i am the 12 post player that went 7-1 in legacy. my lost was to sneak attack and they resolves blood moon games 2 and 3. if anyone would like me to tell you my thoughts on the deck i will be glad to. currently i have used it in 5 different scg events. my results have been 8th, 20 something, 62, invitationl was 7-1 and scrubbed out of the legacy in indy.(just wasnt my day)

[TimHarding]

Interesting that you mentioned that because I was considering bringing Leylines in the side and then moving the fourth Show And Tell in the main.
As for up-ing (is that correct english???) the counters in the main, I am also considering this option beacause even against fair decks I sometimes board FOWs and Flusterstorms...
In the new configuration you're testing, did you remove the Maps and Repeals (+ Needle?) in place of the counters + additional cantrpis?

Yeah upping works! And yeah it was interesting to play it outside the control role. I found that with forces I was having much better game 1s without giving up ground to our naturally good matchups. Plus the occasional force through felt luxurious. I tried many swaps, even cutting crop rotations (adding basics to help that), and shaving down on candelabra, trinket and oracle/map. But man the leyline is pretty decent.. Since there are free slots

How'd it go for you?

[NEELEY]

i beleive my list is near perfect with the meta game and would only change my flusterstorms for swan song so i can stop blood moon. i really debated playing the deck with how much wasteland and blood moon has seen play. but this deck never fails me i am in contention almost every event for top 8 with a 5-0-1 start in cincy and like a 6-1 start in nashville . i keep losing big games. i knew the invitational was going to be filled with tempo and sneak attack and that was why i chose to play with elephant grass . the pithing needles are necessary and i would probably never not play a full playset . also not a fan of trinket mage and the fow package. i think the list i play is the best deck atm but i am always open for ppls suggestion.

[Davek]

so i recently seen this forum is more active than mtgsalvation. i am the 12 post player that went 7-1 in legacy. my lost was to sneak attack and they resolves blood moon games 2 and 3. if anyone would like me to tell you my thoughts on the deck i will be glad to. currently i have used it in 5 different scg events. my results have been 8th, 20 something, 62, invitationl was 7-1 and scrubbed out of the legacy in indy.(just wasnt my day)

Hi Dan,

congrats with your finish, really impressive! Maybe it's time for this deck to improve its popularity and stop just being a niche-deck since it should be crystal clear that it has real power (just kidding, lets hope not, i don't want to face dedicated sb-hate!)

About Blood Moon issue, i have added 1 basic forest to my list just to face that, reducing your pithing needles count (i usually play 3 of them, but since everybody here is talking about cutting them all, i've recently tried to low them to just 2 copies, but i'm not sold on leaving them home, they saved my butt too many times).
You should convert all your fetchlands into misty rainforest too. In this way if you fear a blood moon you could just fetch/tutor for your basic forest first, i would suggest it even if your hand is filled with blue cards too, because once you have access to green and a moon sticks, you have the opportunity to crop rotate a random mountain into your beloved basic island and keep playing your game quite normally.
I know it's considered a good matchup, but i found this quite handy against UWr control too

[Rock Lee]

i beleive my list is near perfect with the meta game and would only change my flusterstorms for swan song so i can stop blood moon. i really debated playing the deck with how much wasteland and blood moon has seen play. but this deck never fails me i am in contention almost every event for top 8 with a 5-0-1 start in cincy and like a 6-1 start in nashville . i keep losing big games. i knew the invitational was going to be filled with tempo and sneak attack and that was why i chose to play with elephant grass . the pithing needles are necessary and i would probably never not play a full playset . also not a fan of trinket mage and the fow package. i think the list i play is the best deck atm but i am always open for ppls suggestion.

What were your matchups?

[NEELEY]

1. painter
2. rug delver
3. shardless bug
4. sneak attack
5. sneak attack(loss)
6. uwr delver
7. shardless bug
8. uwr delver

i am not 100% on the order but i think it went something like this in my legacy matches. also played bryant cook in round 2 for the open and 2-0 him.(he is the builder of tes). game one led with post,... turn 2 cloudpost candelabra,... turn 3 tropical island into show and tell...for primeval titan and searched for 2 more cloudpost and cast emrakul for a million turns. it was a very good hand lol. game two challice on zero on my turn one was good enough. followed up with a turn one challice a few turns later. but he still empty the warrens on me but i naturally drew tabernacle.

[Lemnear]

1. painter
2. rug delver
3. shardless bug
4. sneak attack
5. sneak attack(loss)
6. uwr delver
7. shardless bug
8. uwr delver

i am not 100% on the order but i think it went something like this in my legacy matches. also played bryant cook in round 2 for the open and 2-0 him.(he is the builder of tes). game one led with post,... turn 2 cloudpost candelabra,... turn 3 tropical island into show and tell...for primeval titan and searched for 2 more cloudpost and cast emrakul for a million turns. it was a very good hand lol. game two challice on zero on my turn one was good enough. followed up with a turn one challice a few turns later. but he still empty the warrens on me but i naturally drew tabernacle.

Yes, Chalice is good vs TES ... had this a few pages back ^^

[NEELEY]

I know challice is good i was just letting ppl know i beat one of the top storm players with my list and used swan song instead of flusterstorm for the open. i did not get to cast against him though.

[TimHarding]

i beleive my list is near perfect with the meta game and would only change my flusterstorms for swan song so i can stop blood moon. i really debated playing the deck with how much wasteland and blood moon has seen play. but this deck never fails me i am in contention almost every event for top 8 with a 5-0-1 start in cincy and like a 6-1 start in nashville . i keep losing big games. i knew the invitational was going to be filled with tempo and sneak attack and that was why i chose to play with elephant grass . the pithing needles are necessary and i would probably never not play a full playset . also not a fan of trinket mage and the fow package. i think the list i play is the best deck atm but i am always open for ppls suggestion.

Great work! Great to see another needle fan. I agree that your board/list covers the meta well - with the exception of omni. Maybe I am missing something, but do you write this off as a matchup you hope to dodge? My meta, and local scg meta even has been flooded with it to the point it cannot be ignored, and beating that deck consistently requires a lot of warping. I had a list similar to yours for a while- but omni was near unwinable..

[Rock Lee]

1. painter
2. rug delver
3. shardless bug
4. sneak attack
5. sneak attack(loss)
6. uwr delver
7. shardless bug
8. uwr delver

ah ok. this explains quite a bit. thanks.

[NEELEY]

Great work! Great to see another needle fan. I agree that your board/list covers the meta well - with the exception of omni. Maybe I am missing something, but do you write this off as a matchup you hope to dodge? My meta, and local scg meta even has been flooded with it to the point it cannot be ignored, and beating that deck consistently requires a lot of warping. I had a list similar to yours for a while- but omni was near unwinable..

i do try to dodge this matchup. it is not in our favor but i am not going to try to make my sideboard to deal with a deck that is not as popular as it once was. legacy players understand that sneak attack is more consistant and will continue to be a force in legacy.