[Deck] 12 Post

[sublime love]

I have cut crops, in lists I used a wile back
I would not go below 3, but I did not see any huge draw back. I see 3 working when u are on soo many blue lands, it will be harder to get green.
PS. Needle is soo good

[TimHarding]

I have cut crops, in lists I used a wile back
I would not go below 3, but I did not see any huge draw back. I see 3 working when u are on soo many blue lands, it will be harder to get green.
PS. Needle is soo good

Thanks! I will try the three. I'm just weary of having less wasteland "counters" which seems to come up very often in the lines I pick. Are you still able to answer wastes regularly?

[sublime love]

@tim
I warp my list, based on what I expect the meta to be. At the event where i cut one crop, I knew the meta (from going there before, danvers, toys n things) there was lots of rug delver, sneak, omni, dredge, blade decks, miracles, bug, in that meta
I used the slot for my 4th needle
played vrs dredge, storm, rug, hivemind, miracles, id. In top 4, hivemind round 1 lost (drew bad/punt)
I did not miss it. most of those matches I would cut one crop (if I was on 4) for a sb card. hivemind is the only deck I would sb all my needles out. but I was sbing in fluster 4, 2fow, I don't Remember the rest of my board, I just knew they were the first in
Hope this helps

[That nice guy]

Hello everyone,

I've been doing some serious testing with friends and here are my observations. I run a U/G list with ponder that's 3 cards different from "Known to Work". The 3 cards I'm replacing for testing cards are either 1 Island, Map, Ponder, Bog.

Kozilek, Butcher of Truth could be better, still good though.



Those of you playing 3 crops, in a non-rug version, how is it going?


3 Crops has been pretty great in the ponder list. You can sculpt early and get it if you need it/when you're ready to put a post in play after sculpting with a basic island. Casting Prime Time is hard.

This line of thought has made me wonder about B-Bog though. I lost to reanimator at my last 2 tournaments and it made me super sad because I know I'm supposed to win that match. Bog is huge when you need it but in the majority of my matches I hate to open with it. I still think it's worth a go.

I also think 3 islands are too much. I just run a fetch over the third.



Are the devastation tides a response to a Merfolk heavy meta? How often do you use them? I am undecided right now..


I tested the hell out of Devastation Tide as a 1-of. You can't use needles as a crutch when you run this. My conclusion was that it made me go, "meh" most of the time and 1 in 5 times it was amazing. Also, there were a lot of games when it could have been a Venser, Shaper Savant in the main (oddly enough).

I'm looking forward to testing Cavern of Souls next.


I KNOW THIS IS BAD, but in the interests of brainstorming, what do you guys think of a single Garruk Relentless or Garruk Wildspeaker, or even a Phyrexian Metamorph. I haven't' tested any of the following.


Garruk Wildspeaker is like a bad candle that can protect you/fog your opponent. Another bad choice would be a Garruk Relentless. He only costs one green, and he can really slow the agro.

Kiora, the Crashing Wave was so close to being good. I'd rather run Explore since it will die soon anyway, and 2 for less than a fog seems bad.

Either Plainswalker seems bad :( but Wildspeaker seems like a ton of fun.

Phyrexian Metamorph seems neat. You can copy your own stuff like candle/needle, you can stall their agro, and if you're lucky you can get your very own batterskull/Tarm! And it's CMC is conveniently out of AD range. Still bad, I know.

[203995014]

Yes. The RUG list is tight, but +3 Ponder, -4 Bonfire, -4 Bolt, -3 Volc seems to be the best play here..

You're probably right. I was mostly staying away from UG since when I was new to legacy I tried using this deck and of course I failed miserably and thought it was a bad deck. Now I know I made a lot of stupid misplays back then but sort of "held a grudge" against it.



I KNOW THIS IS BAD, but in the interests of brainstorming, what do you guys think of a single Garruk Relentless or Garruk Wildspeaker, or even a Phyrexian Metamorph. I haven't' tested any of the following.


Garruk Wildspeaker is like a bad candle that can protect you/fog your opponent. Another bad choice would be a Garruk Relentless. He only costs one green, and he can really slow the agro.

Kiora, the Crashing Wave was so close to being good. I'd rather run Explore since it will die soon anyway, and 2 for less than a fog seems bad.

Either Plainswalker seems bad :( but Wildspeaker seems like a ton of fun.

Phyrexian Metamorph seems neat. You can copy your own stuff like candle/needle, you can stall their agro, and if you're lucky you can get your very own batterskull/Tarm! And it's CMC is conveniently out of AD range. Still bad, I know.

Interesting cards, but Garruk might as well be Thragtusk (it does work, it's been tested) and Kiora might as well be Oracle of Mul Daya (much superior for 4 mana).

Now Phyrexian Metamorph is interesting, but I'm not sure where it would fit or why you would use it in the first place. I'm also pretty sure that when it copies something it copies the converted mana cost of the card also.

[Darkenslight]

You're probably right. I was mostly staying away from UG since when I was new to legacy I tried using this deck and of course I failed miserably and thought it was a bad deck. Now I know I made a lot of stupid misplays back then but sort of "held a grudge" against it.



Interesting cards, but Garruk might as well be Thragtusk (it does work, it's been tested) and Kiora might as well be Oracle of Mul Daya (much superior for 4 mana).

Now Phyrexian Metamorph is interesting, but I'm not sure where it would fit or why you would use it in the first place. I'm also pretty sure that when it copies something it copies the converted mana cost of the card also.

Having seen Kiora, I think it's actually better against SnT decks, and worse against Swarm strategies, though it does a good impression of locking down a Griselbrand. What's really interesting is that it can also hate on artifacts and enchantments, as well as planeswalkers and lands that deal damage.

[TimHarding]

Interesting cards, but Garruk might as well be Thragtusk (it does work, it's been tested) and Kiora might as well be Oracle of Mul Daya (much superior for 4 mana).

Now Phyrexian Metamorph is interesting, but I'm not sure where it would fit or why you would use it in the first place. I'm also pretty sure that when it copies something it copies the converted mana cost of the card also.

I was thinking exactly this with each of those cards. Metamorph's still intriguing - but the new legend rule really ruins it... I'd be surprised if it didnt make it in before.

The new planeswalker is pretty interesting though I wont write it off until i try it

[Rock Lee]

Kiora seems strictly worse than all the previous options. Only use i could see for her is an alternate win if you go fow main, dropping candelabras entirely.

[Mockingbird]

Having seen Kiora, I think it's actually better against SnT decks, and worse against Swarm strategies, though it does a good impression of locking down a Griselbrand. What's really interesting is that it can also hate on artifacts and enchantments, as well as planeswalkers and lands that deal damage.

Kiora, the Crashing Wave is a card that I don't expect to make much of a difference in Locus decks because she doesn't really protect herself that well against swarms. After a plus, she is still vulnerable to True-Name Nemesis and Lightning Bolt, her minus is... okay. I don't know if I'd rather go for Explore or Urban Evolution for a comparison, but she will either double explore or soak an attack/burn card and be a single Explore. That's worth testing... but I think I'd rather use the mana to Show and Tell Primeval Titan into play. I'm skeptical of her use in 12-Post, but I'm open to be wrong.

She seems more like a sideboard card that UGx could use (specifically BUG; I don't think RUG goes that high on a curve).

As a side note, while I'm skeptical of her use in Turbo Eldrazi, I'm going to find room for Kiora in my Progenitus Superfriends deck, because the antics that will ensue from her in an environment where she is one of twenty threats that survives Obliterate.

[Rock Lee]

Kiora, the Crashing Wave


As a side note, while I'm skeptical of her use in Turbo Eldrazi, I'm going to find room for Kiora in my Progenitus Superfriends deck, because the antics that will ensue from her in an environment where she is one of twenty threats that survives Obliterate.

Completely agree with this appraisal as to Kiora's role. Nail in the coffin is 2 loyalty. If it started with 4/5 and the ult was 8-9, then much more likely.

Only planeswalkers with 2 loyalty are Tibalt and NIssa and we both know how those two are regarded.

[Megadeus]

Kiora seems strictly worse than all the previous options. Only use i could see for her is an alternate win if you go fow main, dropping candelabras entirely.

My thought as well. Being 2UG seems just worse than having Oracle of Mul Daya being a single G

[TimHarding]

Going into a small tourney expecting several Merfolk and the usual TNN/Delver hoards I put in 3 Llawan and it was pretty sick lol

[Rock Lee]

Going into a small tourney expecting several Merfolk and the usual TNN/Delver hoards I put in 3 Llawan and it was pretty sick lol

Where was this!? I've been fiending for some action recently. HOlidays ruining all the mtg fun.

[TimHarding]

Where was this!? I've been fiending for some action recently. HOlidays ruining all the mtg fun.

West Hartford..

I know this is obvious to anyone familiar to legacy but llawan was good and wasn't as narrow as you'd imagine. It hits about, 40-50% of the deck types in tier 1. Realistically, it's still not required, but I'm going to keep it in mind if the format narrows. One fun play included repealing llawan to re-bounce a Merfolk army that was built by vials.

Also, I've been having a great time playing 1-2 cursed totems. I'm experiencing (and watching on scg) a lot of elves and sneak and show. Between those and needles I feel I have a solid amount of permanent based answers, while still siding in no less than 12 counters. Omni and storm seem to be on a big decline, since they're terrible, but if they return, the totems would go back to Glen elendra and chalice as that same-flavor permanent hate.

[203995014]

West Hartford..

I know this is obvious to anyone familiar to legacy but llawan was good and wasn't as narrow as you'd imagine. It hits about, 40-50% of the deck types in tier 1. Realistically, it's still not required, but I'm going to keep it in mind if the format narrows. One fun play included repealing llawan to re-bounce a Merfolk army that was built by vials.

Also, I've been having a great time playing 1-2 cursed totems. I'm experiencing (and watching on scg) a lot of elves and sneak and show. Between those and needles I feel I have a solid amount of permanent based answers, while still siding in no less than 12 counters. Omni and storm seem to be on a big decline, since they're terrible, but if they return, the totems would go back to Glen elendra and chalice as that same-flavor permanent hate.

Why is Llawan better than Devastation Tide? Any deck that I can think of that Llawan would be good against either simply doesn't care or can work around it. Is there something I am missing?

[That nice guy]

Why is Llawan better than Devastation Tide? Any deck that I can think of that Llawan would be good against either simply doesn't care or can work around it. Is there something I am missing?

I've been testing the hell out of Devastation Tide. Tim runs needles, so at some point he will have the needles on the board staring at wastes and not want to bounce everything. Honestly, I'd rather maindeck Elephant Grass.

[TimHarding]

I've been testing the hell out of Devastation Tide. Tim runs needles, so at some point he will have the needles on the board staring at wastes and not want to bounce everything. Honestly, I'd rather maindeck Elephant Grass.

Devastation tide is definitely less narrow, and probably better overall lol, but after testing it a lot I really felt the symmetrical effects (you're right about needles). It's a very clunky card. Overall I don't think post really needs a sweeper right now. But now with ponder joining the fun (I might do 2, but right now at 1) you can run some bomby hate and see it a lot more often. So noticing that my weaknesses have been elves and Merfolk (and TNN aggressive draws), the totems/llawan was my go to and it was good. If goblins were relevant I'd play elephant grass - love that card! This is just some silly messing with slots 13-15 of the sideboard, but I want to side in something "devastating" to supplement the counter suite lol

P.S. Needles have been MVP for weeks now! Every tier 1 deck gets slammed by it.

[civet five]

Devastation tide is definitely less narrow, and probably better overall lol, but after testing it a lot I really felt the symmetrical effects (you're right about needles). It's a very clunky card. Overall I don't think post really needs a sweeper right now. But now with ponder joining the fun (I might do 2, but right now at 1) you can run some bomby hate and see it a lot more often. So noticing that my weaknesses have been elves and Merfolk (and TNN aggressive draws), the totems/llawan was my go to and it was good. If goblins were relevant I'd play elephant grass - love that card! This is just some silly messing with slots 13-15 of the sideboard, but I want to side in something "devastating" to supplement the counter suite lol

P.S. Needles have been MVP for weeks now! Every tier 1 deck gets slammed by it.

Every time I take out Turbo Eldrazi, I run into nothing but Gobbos, Merfolk and DnT, so I've been keeping a Tabernacle in the 75, Needles in the main and toying with O-Stone and All Is Dust. I still like Devastation Tide and Temporal Mastery, but they aren't good in the combo matchups and the deadweight isn't worth it.

[sun tzu]

i was reading through the thread, and i found a post (that i should have quoted, sorry) saying rock was testing a build that splashed white. what white cards are there that would work especially well for this archetype other than the obvious swords to plowshares?

[203995014]

i was reading through the thread, and i found a post (that i should have quoted, sorry) saying rock was testing a build that splashed white. what white cards are there that would work especially well for this archetype other than the obvious swords to plowshares?

12-post isn't very good vs. combo. so Ethersworn Canonist would be amazing vs. those decks. The early game relies mainly on artifacts so the drawback shouldn't hit you that much.

[Rock Lee]

i was reading through the thread, and i found a post (that i should have quoted, sorry) saying rock was testing a build that splashed white. what white cards are there that would work especially well for this archetype other than the obvious swords to plowshares?

Early white dabblings were Knight of the Reliquary, then a build with stp and terminus, then just white combo hate.

Found that just maindecking fow was better.

[That nice guy]

I've been messing with 2 explore over 2 ponder. Not bad, not bad at all. ... but not as good as ponder.

I have been tempted to run the black splash just to throw in Pernicious Deed. Anyone out there try that?

[NEELEY]

12 post this weekend in indy. trying the trinket mage. share your thoughts

main deck

26 land

4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
4 vesuva
4 misty rainforest
4 tropical island
1 island
1 forest
1 bojuka bog
1 eye of ugin
1 karakas
1 glacial chasm

9 creatures

4 primeval titan
2 trinket mage
1 emrakul
1 ulamgo
1 kozilek

25 spells

4 show and tell
4 brainstorm
3 repeal
4 crop rotation
3 pithing needle
3 expedition map
3 sensei's divining top
1 candelabra of tawnos

sideboard

3 chalice of the void
4 swan song
2 oblivion stone
2 venser, shaper savant
2 cursed totem
1 flusterstorm
1 tabernacle

[sublime love]

@needly
Always 4 tops

[NEELEY]

@needly
Always 4 tops

I think 3 tops is fine with 2 trinket mage. i have done well only running three tops without trinket mage.

[203995014]

I keep reading that decks like RUG delver and Jund are amazing matchups for this deck but I just can't seem to beat them twice out of three. Could we have an updated primer or some insight on how to beat decks like this?

Also, what is the best way to go about a very meta-unspecific 12-post deck?

[That nice guy]

I keep reading that decks like RUG delver and Jund are amazing matchups for this deck but I just can't seem to beat them twice out of three. Could we have an updated primer or some insight on how to beat decks like this?

Also, what is the best way to go about a very meta-unspecific 12-post deck?

You're doing it wrong. You using the Ponder list? With me they only snuck out 1in5 while I'm rockin ponder. Playing against Stifle is weird, makes me not regret losing O-Stone. I will admit that against Jund's optimal line of play (T1-thoughtseize, T-2 Hymn, T3-Lilly, T4-waste, T5-waste) sometimes you just lose. I think maindecking 2 Needle is the right call with 4 ponder.

Rock Lee is always changing the deck so IDK how long that would last, but I think the ponder list is here to stay so some editing would be appreciated. I think in his "Space Reserved" it would be nice if he just did a long stream of sample hands. There are a lot of times when I look at a hand and don't know ho much faith I should have in the deck; I'll trow things back and then get a bunch of ify/situational cards like bog and then just wonder if I shouldn't have mulled. Ponder has really smoothed this out for me as well as the times when I feel like, "I just need one thing...".

[203995014]

You're doing it wrong. You using the Ponder list? With me they only snuck out 1in5 while I'm rockin ponder. Playing against Stifle is weird, makes me not regret losing O-Stone. I will admit that against Jund's optimal line of play (T1-thoughtseize, T-2 Hymn, T3-Lilly, T4-waste, T5-waste) sometimes you just lose. I think maindecking 2 Needle is the right call with 4 ponder.

Rock Lee is always changing the deck so IDK how long that would last, but I think the ponder list is here to stay so some editing would be appreciated. I think in his "Space Reserved" it would be nice if he just did a long stream of sample hands. There are a lot of times when I look at a hand and don't know ho much faith I should have in the deck; I'll trow things back and then get a bunch of ify/situational cards like bog and then just wonder if I shouldn't have mulled. Ponder has really smoothed this out for me as well as the times when I feel like, "I just need one thing...".

This is the list I am trying:

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-post-02-01-14-1/

I don't see how everyone else is doing it.

[TimHarding]

12 post this weekend in indy. trying the trinket mage. share your thoughts


Good luck! Over all I agree strongly with your lists.

MD: For the sake of higher % keepable hands I'd recommend +1 Top +1 Island, -1 Mage -1 Vesuva. There's few hands I'll mull that feature islands and tops. Otherwise I'm on something similar and I have good results. Needles are good.

SB: +2 Flusterstorm, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Chalice. With Mage you're effectively playing more chalices. And scg metas always have a lot of SnT combo and rug, flusterstorm is great IMO. My tabernacle might as well be a coaster these days lol..


This is the list I am trying:

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-post-02-01-14-1/

I don't see how everyone else is doing it.

IMO RUG is a good matchup and Jund is iffy/bad due to the extreme variance in the Jund matchup. They both hinge upon carefully exposing yourself to wasteland, and avoiding the "free win" lines of play that each deck features.

RUG: The waste/stifle/daze dance is something everyone in legacy should have some familiarity with. I want my hand to feature immediate access to a basic land (even better if you don't need to expose to stifle). A T1 artifact I feel is strong, to immediately start drawing out counters. I'll play around daze with tops, but I'll put candles and maps into the fray and hope they counter it. Then I'm looking to fire off show and tells (even bluffed), draw out more counters. And eventually build lands to cast Titan, or eldrazi. Strong plays include repealing delver, and crop in response to waste. You want to see these cards. Always representing these as options, and sculpting into these will push the card advantage into your favor over the first few turns. I've found it worst to sit back, being proactive and using your low cost answers is the strongest. Sometimes I play a cavern of souls when blue is as popular as it is now. Depending on their style I might put in flusterstorm to force things through. Maybe reveal a SB chalice to freak them out..

JUND: They have some lines that are straight scary. But brainstorm and Top help this out a lot! Games 2-3 I won't keep a hand without one of them. Again, another wasteland deck, so I want a basic first, to facilitate top/storm to play around all of their sorcery speed interaction. The goal is to not be parked with a Titan and eldrazi in your hand and getting hymned. Ideally I want to island>manipulate>land>artifact>land>show and tell Titan. Obviously that's never guaranteed, so optimizing to play off of the top of the library is what you need to be prepared for. Fetching. Top is essential. Also, needle is pretty great in this matchup naming waste. Also if you needle liliana, you can show and tell eldrazi without risk. Also, I've found that needling DRS or repealing DRS before it's active is HUGE. Couple that with a basic and some manipulation and you should be in good shape. Sometimes I put in flusterstorm, but I'm not sold on it. But overall, being on the draw and getting hit with their god draw will beat you, and the rest of legacy deals with this variance. Map, ulamog, chasm, candelabra are weaker cards you'll want to see less of in this MU, IMO. Luckily, this deck is on a decline as far as I can see.

I'd love to hear how others deal with Jund! And yeah, primers sound great

[203995014]

Good luck! Over all I agree strongly with your lists.

MD: For the sake of higher % keepable hands I'd recommend +1 Top +1 Island, -1 Mage -1 Vesuva. There's few hands I'll mull that feature islands and tops. Otherwise I'm on something similar and I have good results. Needles are good.

SB: +2 Flusterstorm, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Chalice. With Mage you're effectively playing more chalices. And scg metas always have a lot of SnT combo and rug, flusterstorm is great IMO. My tabernacle might as well be a coaster these days lol..



IMO RUG is a good matchup and Jund is iffy/bad due to the extreme variance in the Jund matchup. They both hinge upon carefully exposing yourself to wasteland, and avoiding the "free win" lines of play that each deck features.

RUG: The waste/stifle/daze dance is something everyone in legacy should have some familiarity with. I want my hand to feature immediate access to a basic land (even better if you don't need to expose to stifle). A T1 artifact I feel is strong, to immediately start drawing out counters. I'll play around daze with tops, but I'll put candles and maps into the fray and hope they counter it. Then I'm looking to fire off show and tells (even bluffed), draw out more counters. And eventually build lands to cast Titan, or eldrazi. Strong plays include repealing delver, and crop in response to waste. You want to see these cards. Always representing these as options, and sculpting into these will push the card advantage into your favor over the first few turns. I've found it worst to sit back, being proactive and using your low cost answers is the strongest. Sometimes I play a cavern of souls when blue is as popular as it is now. Depending on their style I might put in flusterstorm to force things through. Maybe reveal a SB chalice to freak them out..

JUND: They have some lines that are straight scary. But brainstorm and Top help this out a lot! Games 2-3 I won't keep a hand without one of them. Again, another wasteland deck, so I want a basic first, to facilitate top/storm to play around all of their sorcery speed interaction. The goal is to not be parked with a Titan and eldrazi in your hand and getting hymned. Ideally I want to island>manipulate>land>artifact>land>show and tell Titan. Obviously that's never guaranteed, so optimizing to play off of the top of the library is what you need to be prepared for. Fetching. Top is essential. Also, needle is pretty great in this matchup naming waste. Also if you needle liliana, you can show and tell eldrazi without risk. Also, I've found that needling DRS or repealing DRS before it's active is HUGE. Couple that with a basic and some manipulation and you should be in good shape. Sometimes I put in flusterstorm, but I'm not sold on it. But overall, being on the draw and getting hit with their god draw will beat you, and the rest of legacy deals with this variance. Map, ulamog, chasm, candelabra are weaker cards you'll want to see less of in this MU, IMO. Luckily, this deck is on a decline as far as I can see.

I'd love to hear how others deal with Jund! And yeah, primers sound great

For your RUG analysis, is that the general idea vs. all delver decks? Is the Jund matchup any similar to the Shardless BUG matchup?

Thanks for the advice, I've been doing much better.

[TimHarding]

For your RUG analysis, is that the general idea vs. all delver decks? Is the Jund matchup any similar to the Shardless BUG matchup?

Thanks for the advice, I've been doing much better.

The delver decks are similar. The non-rug lists are less focused on your mana so they should be easier. Against Patriot, things like needle and o-stone are relevant because of slower equipment and sfm. UR delver i side in counters to be able to counter price of progress and force things through(like a crop for chasm). Repeal is king against all of them, severe tempo advantage AND card advantage for low mana really messes up their strategy.

While shardless has some nutty draws that will leave them up 7 cards on you, it's again a little less focused than the Jund. Overall they have a lot of weak cards against post, so avoiding devastating hymns and slowing down their draws by controlling DRS is strong. Top is important if games get into the jace zone. Overall I think it's a very positive matchup.

[203995014]

The delver decks are similar. The non-rug lists are less focused on your mana so they should be easier. Against Patriot, things like needle and o-stone are relevant because of slower equipment and sfm. UR delver i side in counters to be able to counter price of progress and force things through(like a crop for chasm). Repeal is king against all of them, severe tempo advantage AND card advantage for low mana really messes up their strategy.

While shardless has some nutty draws that will leave them up 7 cards on you, it's again a little less focused than the Jund. Overall they have a lot of weak cards against post, so avoiding devastating hymns and slowing down their draws by controlling DRS is strong. Top is important if games get into the jace zone. Overall I think it's a very positive matchup.

Would you consider Pithing Needle a necessity? What cards would you take out for it if you were to try and find space for it in a deck without it?

[TimHarding]

Would you consider Pithing Needle a necessity? What cards would you take out for it if you were to try and find space for it in a deck without it?

I don't think it's a requirement at all. The main reason I include it is to increase the relevant hate against sneak/show and elves in the 75. Conveniently, needle is 'never dead', and has applications in almost every MU, serving as a 1 mana vindicate. It's nice to be able to throw in a reasonable SB card into the MD. Lastly, it can name wasteland and protect chasm, but that is far from why I play it. If the main combo decks I expect weren't weak to needle, I probably wouldn't play it. But right now, it catches so much especially with all of the equipment in tier 1.

Looking at your list mine is basically identical; +2 Needle, -1 Ponder -1 Candelabra.

[203995014]

What does the community think about trying Wurmcoil Engine as a card vs. aggro? Very difficult to deal with and is entirely colorless. If they try to kill it it craps out babies. Can gain a lot of life for you.

[Mockingbird]

What does the community think about trying Wurmcoil Engine as a card vs. aggro? Very difficult to deal with and is entirely colorless. If they try to kill it it craps out babies. Can gain a lot of life for you.
The problem can be summed up with: What to take out for it?

In my MUD-Post, I love the 3-1 split I have of them and it only has to compete with Duplicant, Steel Hellkite, and Blightsteel Colossus for high curve finisher slots, which is only tech anyway.

In Simic-Post, It has to compete with Primeval Titan and the Legendary Eldrazi, all which advance your board an encroach on theirs. It's a tighter squeeze. I'll try it when someone points to where I could make the room.

[civet five]

The problem can be summed up with: What to take out for it?

In my MUD-Post, I love the 3-1 split I have of them and it only has to compete with Duplicant, Steel Hellkite, and Blightsteel Colossus for high curve finisher slots, which is only tech anyway.

In Simic-Post, It has to compete with Primeval Titan and the Legendary Eldrazi, all which advance your board an encroach on theirs. It's a tighter squeeze. I'll try it when someone points to where I could make the room.

I think it competes with the same spots that could go to OStone, Karn, All Is Dust and other sweepers, if you even run them. I've tried Wurmcoil Engine as a "better batterskull" to help with my Goblin problem, but its just too slow and can't be tutored for. MUD can drop their Giant Robot on turn 2 or 3, and we just can't do that.

I think its really to lose focus - this deck has inevitability like no other deck does. The objective should be staying alive so you can reach it, so craft your plan around what you think you need to do to stay alive.

[203995014]

What about back in the days when Thragtusk was considered a good card? If someone were to run Thragtusk in the sideboard, could that be replaced with Wurmcoil Engine or is there something special about Thragtusk?

[Mockingbird]

What about back in the days when Thragtusk was considered a good card? If someone were to run Thragtusk in the sideboard, could that be replaced with Wurmcoil Engine or is there something special about Thragtusk?

I never ran Thragtusk, but if I had to guess, you still get the token and 5 life if Thragtusk takes a Swords to Plowshares before you untap while Wurmcoil Engine gives and leaves nothing, but it's probably a preference or meta thing because Wurmcoil Engine is more dangerous the longer it lives.

[sun tzu]

has anyone tried time spiral, snap, or treachery?

also, has anyone found a build that can compete with the consistency of a general UG build that does not feature primeval titan?

i feel like there HAS to be another strategy that can compete with primeval titan. love the guy to death, but the manacost hurts without a candelabra in play, and i've been running four of them.

[203995014]

has anyone tried time spiral, snap, or treachery?

also, has anyone found a build that can compete with the consistency of a general UG build that does not feature primeval titan?

i feel like there HAS to be another strategy that can compete with primeval titan. love the guy to death, but the manacost hurts without a candelabra in play, and i've been running four of them.

Time Spiral is counterproductive to the plan of this deck, Treachery is bad, and Snap has been shown to be useful, but only as Repeal 5-8. Untapping Lands is useful, but the fact that it doesn't cantrip is a real setback.

Primeval Titan is the reason why this deck exists. Without it, this deck would be pretty bad. He MUST be a 4 of, and if you are having trouble getting Primeval Titan into play without a Candelabra of Tawnos, you're doing something really wrong.

[TimHarding]

Time Spiral is counterproductive to the plan of this deck, Treachery is bad, and Snap has been shown to be useful, but only as Repeal 5-8. Untapping Lands is useful, but the fact that it doesn't cantrip is a real setback.

Primeval Titan is the reason why this deck exists. Without it, this deck would be pretty bad. He MUST be a 4 of, and if you are having trouble getting Primeval Titan into play without a Candelabra of Tawnos, you're doing something really wrong.

This is all spot on. Any 6+ mana spell should be Titan. If you find yourself more often having a lot of colorless, and 1 green mana, you can consider playing (or even splitting) GSZ. I know another post player who has good success with it.

I am more often than not casting it off of 5+ lands if it's hard cast. Rarely, almost never, do I get it off T3 with candle. It's usually island>gp>trop>cp>trop as the most common type of progession that allows tops, repeals, maps and shows to be sent in before Titan. I think of the hardcast Titan to be the 'inevitability' of the deck. Other lines with eye, eldrazis and CPs are also boss, and they an even higher level inevitability.

You have show and tell, Titan, eye, eldrazi. Something has to give, and one will - usually in about that order..

[edk]

I like your list! Nice showings. Are the devastation tides a response to a Merfolk heavy meta? How often do you use them? I am undecided right now..
Sorry I missed your answer. Yes Devastation Tide was my solution to Merfolk and Slivers (list playing 40 slivers), associated to Elephant Grass. They were good against Slivers, but insufficient againt Merfolk. But I have read you succesfully tested Llawan, I will test it next time.

[PetesMcskeets]

Gonna be playing in orlando, pretty set on this list atm.

// Lands
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Cavern of Souls

// Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Primeval Titan

// Spells
4 Show and Tell
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
4 Repeal
2 Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 4 Swan Song

Notes:
Want to fit a 3rd needle again. Probably gonna cut an island.
Didn't like oracle, tried it but it was never what I wanted to do, atleast in my meta.
Didn't like the ponders.
Tried the rug lists, bolt was amazing, bonfire ok, sneak attack really good, thinking about trying a rug list with just bolts lol.

[203995014]

How important are Candelabras and Expedition Maps? I've been debating cutting 1 of each for 2 Pithing Needles (I have 3 maps and 3 candelabras).

It just seems like it would improve A LOT of matchups but Candelabras and Maps seem fairly important.

Edit: That's actually how I felt about the RUG list, Bonfires were just too mana intensive.

[Zotmaster]

How important are Candelabras and Expedition Maps? I've been debating cutting 1 of each for 2 Pithing Needles (I have 3 maps and 3 candelabras).

It just seems like it would improve A LOT of matchups but Candelabras and Maps seem fairly important.

Edit: That's actually how I felt about the RUG list, Bonfires were just too mana intensive.

I have a love/hate relationship with Map. It's good, but often not fantastic, and sometimes it just doesn't do what I need it to do at all. My current build doesn't run them at all, although without access to cards like Tropical and Candel, I've gone in a different direction: one less conducive to Map.

If I had 12 Candels, I would run all 12 and hope my opponent was too stupid to notice. I'm exaggerating, but only slightly. If you're using Trinket Mage to tutor for your artifacts, you could probably also cut a Candel, but if you aren't, I'd cut Maps first.

[kingtk3]

Quick report for small event.

The deck:

1 island
4 tropical island
3 tundra
4 misty rainforest
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
3 vesuva
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
1 eye of ugin

MONSTERS 3
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
1 kozilek, butcher of truth
1 ulamog, the infinite gyre

CHEATERS 3
3 show and tell

LAND SEARCHERS 10
4 primeval titan
3 expedition map
3 crop rotation

FILTERING 8
4 sensei's divining top
4 brainstorm

REMOVALS 10
4 swords to plowshares
4 repeal
2 karn liberated

SIDE
4 force of will
3 swan song
2 flusterstorm
1 glacial chasm
2 oblivion stone
3 pithing needle


R1 vs UW stoneblade 2-1
G1 he play T3 TNN, T4 karakas+ vendilion and I'm not fast enough
G2 long game that I win thanks to oblivion stone and eye of ugin (gone long because he still had karakas+vendilion)
G3 I hardcast emrakul on turn 6 and my opponent kindly concedes me the match (it was the fourth additional turn)

R2 vs patriot 2-0
G1 he ponders, plays stoneforge (which a sword) and TNN but in the meanwhile I assemble much mana and map for eye with crop rotation backup
G2 he's very unlucky since he ponders 3 times shuffling two of them. He doesn't put much pressure and I have all the time to cast a naturally draw emrakul

R3 vs omnihall ID

semifinal vs reanimator 2-1
G1 I begin with land->top, he show and tell griselbrand and I don't even have to use crop rotation because I have karakas in the first 3 cards. I have bojuka bog too :-)
G2 he begins with land, double petal, entomb->inkwell leviathan, exhume and I can't do anything (I had fow bojuka in hand but no blu card to pitch).
G3 I open with cloudpost and my opponent plays land, double petal, entomb->inkwell leviathan, exhume (I felt dejavu...). However I have top, double glimmerpost, crop rotation and titan in hand: I manage to stay alive at 1 life for three turns gaining life via glimmerpost and vesuva till I could safely fetch eye and go for emrakul. This match demonstrates how much this deck is strong.

Final split with Omnihall (it was late too)

Changes I would surely do in the main deck:
-2 karn, +2 oblivion stone

I'm also pondering about dropping white not because it was disappointing but rather to verify if UG is just stronger: however I don't own any candelabra, nor I plan to buy any for ~190€, and I hate to play with proxies.

Do you have any advices? Expecially some sideboard tips (for what to side out) against reanimator would be appreciated.

[Maagler]

What did you side for your matches? Do you feel light in the side vs combo?

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[kingtk3]

What did you side for your matches? Do you feel light in the side vs combo?

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I sided as following:

VS UW stoneblade -1 karn, -1 crop rotation, -1 bojuka bog, +2 oblivion stone, +1 glacial chasm

VS Patriot -2 karn, -1 bojuka bog, +2 oblivion stone, +1 glacial chasm

VS reanimator -2 karn, -4 repeal, -1 show and tell, -1 expedition map, -1 top, +4 fow, +3 swan song, +2 flusterstorm

The problem I had with reanimator is that Sword to plowshares are quite good against them while repeal is not, so in G2/3 I'm quite light on blue cards to pitch to fow (it happened in G2).
Against another combo I would almost surely side out the swords instead, so I'd have 4 more blue cards.

I'm still in the process of learning the deck, please tell me if some of my arguments are wrong.

[Maagler]

I'm thinking chasm might come in against reanimator too. Although I probably think this because I'm running a UG list with needles which relies heavily on chasms to win some matches. But It looks like you don't need chasm because you have hard removal maindeck already.

Have you tested terminus?

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[Maagler]

Double post

[kingtk3]

I'm thinking chasm might come in shaping reanimator too. Although im running a ug list with needles that rely heavily on chasms to win a lot of matches. It looks like you don't need them though because you have hard removal maindeck already.

Have you tested terminus?

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I would have liked to side in chasm adn oblivion stones too, but simply I didn't know what to side out.
Crop rotation have to stay since it can fetch bojuka in response to a reanimation spell.
Expedition maps fetch karakas and bojuka itself.
The creatures are needed to fight opposing show and tell.
Swords are removal for anything leviathan apart.
Brainstorm are needed for the blue count.

The only card I can think to side is one copy of top, because it's slow against combo and one single copy is all that you need.

I'm going to test terminus next: I can now say that this deck doesn't need karn because we already have inevatability against slow decks and Karn is not good against fast decks.
I think I'll play oblivion stone main deck and a couple of terminus in the side because oblivion is a catch all solution that kills planeswalker too. Obviously this will make sideboarding against reanimator tougher because I will have another 2 cards I would like to side in (and two less I'm keen to side out): guess I need to balance the 75 for the side strategies -_-

[Rock Lee]

I'm also pondering about dropping white not because it was disappointing but rather to verify if UG is just stronger: however I don't own any candelabra, nor I plan to buy any for ~190€, and I hate to play with proxies.

Do you have any advices? Expecially some sideboard tips (for what to side out) against reanimator would be appreciated.

If you require winnings in order to purchase more expensive cards, and require a sub-optimal but still competitive list in order to secure monetary value in the form of prizes to this end, I can safely suggest this list.

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [LRW] Island (1)
3 [R] Tropical Island
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [R] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [M12] Ponder
3 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
3 [4E] Lightning Bolt

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [ME] Force of Will
SB: 1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant

While I normally don't suggest sub-optimal lists, but for a deck of this expense, I suppose I should consider them. There are some contentious points here and meta considerations as well. If your meta is heavy storm, drop x3 bolt, x1 show, and maindeck x4 Fow. If your meta is heavy reanimator, MD bojuka bog. If omnihalls is giving you a run for your money and pervades, swap the bolts for vensersx3. If Sneaky Show is dominating your meta, Pithing needles can fit in there, if Patriot and Jund is, then Sneak Attacks can.

Obviously the mana would get tweaked slightly in each of these changes, and sideboarding will be slightly different with this beast than the normal deck. If you require a brief VERY VAGUE primer on how to sb with this version, let me know.

[sublime love]

@Kingtk
Reanimator is a good match up for post. But that deck can be a boss and still just jam out a big man (inkwell) and it's too big and fast to stop it.
Played a 24 man event Sunday with this, going 4-0
Split top 4 only cuz my opp in top was a friend (on reanimator)

// Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Forest
4 Glimmerpost
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Vesuva

// Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Primeval Titan
2 Trinket Mage
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

// Instants
4 Crop Rotation
3 Repeal

// Sorceries
3 Show and Tell

// Artifacts
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Meekstone
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Swan Song
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Vrs a deck like reanimator SBing- for me
In:
1 relic
1 cage
1 meek
4 fluster
Out:
2 explosives
3 show and tell
1 repeal
1 oracle

I keep 2 repeals as out to needle and so I can go "infante" if need. The top draw trick is also ok. If I wanted the extra needle I would take one trinket out.

My meta is light on combo decks. Most of the combo decks I see are sneak, dredge, tin fins, omni, reanimator. we usually have a hi of 4 combo in the room(give or take)
So as you see most of the combo decks I could play vrs can be hosed out with grave hate, fluster/swan and needle.
my event went
R1 dredge
R2 affinity
R3 wu blade
R4 tezzerator bu

[That nice guy]

I bit of advice, repeal can still hit the enchantments lifting creatures, so I might keep it in on the play.

In an attempt to be better against combo I play-tested about 10 games vs it tonight. I found that it was still abysmal despite my 13 card SB.

SB - For reference: UG build
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 4 Swan Song
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Drop of Honey
SB: 1 Tabernacle

I wanted to put the fourth crop rotation in there as well against reanimator/dredge/to get chasm and other goodies, but it seems that combo is still too harsh when my opponent knows how to play against me.

Suggestions? I'm thinking about dropping a Trap for the Vensor?

Engineered Explosives seems amazing BTW: Always giving value or buying you time, but doesn't solve the real problems.

[kingtk3]

If you require winnings in order to purchase more expensive cards, and require a sub-optimal but still competitive list in order to secure monetary value in the form of prizes to this end, I can safely suggest this list.

decklist

While I normally don't suggest sub-optimal lists, but for a deck of this expense, I suppose I should consider them. There are some contentious points here and meta considerations as well. If your meta is heavy storm, drop x3 bolt, x1 show, and maindeck x4 Fow. If your meta is heavy reanimator, MD bojuka bog. If omnihalls is giving you a run for your money and pervades, swap the bolts for vensersx3. If Sneaky Show is dominating your meta, Pithing needles can fit in there, if Patriot and Jund is, then Sneak Attacks can.

Obviously the mana would get tweaked slightly in each of these changes, and sideboarding will be slightly different with this beast than the normal deck. If you require a brief VERY VAGUE primer on how to sb with this version, let me know.

First of all thanks to everyone for the feedbacks.

The problem I have with candelabra is that it costs too much for being a card played in only two decks (this and Time spiral): it's not like dual, fow or fetches. I hope to win one in some serious event, otherwise I cannot easily see myself buying one :frown:

The first iteration of turbo eldrazi I played was your UGr variant found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24848-Deck-Turbo-Eldrazi&p=770703&viewfull=1#post770703)

The list above is very similar to the one I linked, basically the changes are:

-1 lightning bolt +1 bonfire fo the damned
-1 volcanic island +1 show and tell
-3 expedition map, -1 bojuka bog +4 ponder

if I had to guess the reasons beyond these changes I'd say that

4 lightning bolt are too much and mid-late gmae bonfire is much stronger, even if normally casted
without candelabras the fourth show and tell is a way to speed up the deck, which also helps to put titan in play without double green in play
without candelabras actually the lands you play are "weaker", so you need to compensate with the spells, thus ponder is preferred over map because it can get you both lands and spells (and helps to set up bonfire)

Am I right?

After playing the deck a linked I considered that swords to plowshares is strictly better than lightning bolt (in this deck), while bonfire of the damned and karn (and now oblivion stone) are more or less on the same power level, the former being a win condition itself, the latter providing a catchall answer to non-land permanents.

If there isn't something I'm missing, why the red splash is better of the white one? Is it for the possibility of playing sneak attack in the side?

Also I could surely use a sideboard guide, even if vague: I could tailor it around the final list I'll be playing :wink:

Thanks again!

[Hopo]

In an attempt to be better against combo I play-tested about 10 games vs it tonight. I found that it was still abysmal despite my 13 card SB.

SB - For reference: UG build
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 4 Swan Song
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Drop of Honey
SB: 1 Tabernacle


The above (storm) combo hate is useless as soon as Xantid Swarm resolves. Swarm is really good against the classic 10+ counters side plan so it's all about if your opponent knows the deck or not. They might expect permanent hate and board in Decays instead of Swarm. You want to play Chalice beside counters. You need something you can drop on turn 1. Sphere of Resistance is the next best thing. Chasm is needed against Empty the Warrens.

[That nice guy]

The above (storm) combo hate is useless as soon as Xantid Swarm resolves. Swarm is really good against the classic 10+ counters side plan so it's all about if your opponent knows the deck or not. They might expect permanent hate and board in Decays instead of Swarm. You want to play Chalice beside counters. You need something you can drop on turn 1. Sphere of Resistance is the next best thing. Chasm is needed against Empty the Warrens.

I keep in repeals and then hope to force it, but I think you're right. Swarm is really good. I sided into tabernacle in case of the Empty plan but that's just walking into a suckerpunch.

[Maagler]

First of all thanks to everyone for the feedbacks.

The problem I have with candelabra is that it costs too much for being a card played in only two decks (this and Time spiral): it's not like dual, fow or fetches. I hope to win one in some serious event, otherwise I cannot easily see myself buying one :frown:

The first iteration of turbo eldrazi I played was your UGr variant found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24848-Deck-Turbo-Eldrazi&p=770703&viewfull=1#post770703)

The list above is very similar to the one I linked, basically the changes are:

-1 lightning bolt +1 bonfire fo the damned
-1 volcanic island +1 show and tell
-3 expedition map, -1 bojuka bog +4 ponder

if I had to guess the reasons beyond these changes I'd say that

4 lightning bolt are too much and mid-late gmae bonfire is much stronger, even if normally casted
without candelabras the fourth show and tell is a way to speed up the deck, which also helps to put titan in play without double green in play
without candelabras actually the lands you play are "weaker", so you need to compensate with the spells, thus ponder is preferred over map because it can get you both lands and spells (and helps to set up bonfire)

Am I right?

After playing the deck a linked I considered that swords to plowshares is strictly better than lightning bolt (in this deck), while bonfire of the damned and karn (and now oblivion stone) are more or less on the same power level, the former being a win condition itself, the latter providing a catchall answer to non-land permanents.

If there isn't something I'm missing, why the red splash is better of the white one? Is it for the possibility of playing sneak attack in the side?

Also I could surely use a sideboard guide, even if vague: I could tailor it around the final list I'll be playing :wink:

Thanks again!

I think if you just compare swords straight up to lightning bolt, you will find swords is in fact better. But other than swords white does not have much to offer.

Red offers explosiveness as well as removal, with sneak attack and through the breach. If you are only interested in the removal side of the color splash, swords seems like a good option.

On the other hand, you could use something like vapor snag or snap as an on color removal spell. They buy you time and keeps you in UG.

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[S_Jake]

Rock, what is your current UG list?

[Maagler]

Has anyone tested Druidic Satchel?

Seems like it could do almost anything for the deck; gains life, makes blockers and ramps. And it gets much better with top as well.

Maybe with abrupt decay its not that great though...

thoughts?

[sublime love]

@that nice guy
It should be clear that post is weak to combo. MD had zero counters. so no way to interact other then needle and gaining some life.
I would never play post with combo decks being the highest % of decks I am trying to beat. Post shines in "fair" deck metas.
play miracles or rug delver.
making this deck have a match up that something like rug delver feels good at, seems like a losing battle. To make that happen, you need to sacrifice all the good match ups.
Can't best em' change decks

[Rock Lee]

Rock, what is your current UG list?

// Lands
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [M12] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [NPH] Gut Shot
SB: 1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

What with no major events in the last MONTH, I haven't been able to report on findings. So I haven't been discussing my changes and debated alterations.

[That nice guy]

// Lands
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [M12] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [NPH] Gut Shot
SB: 1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

What with no major events in the last MONTH, I haven't been able to report on findings. So I haven't been discussing my changes and debated alterations.

I do like ponder more than I like map. But cutting a top for a crop rotation? What's your theory?

Also, I'd never play the deck without Glacial Chasm in the main.

Why Gut Shot? Why not Elephant Grass?

[Rock Lee]

I do like ponder more than I like map. But cutting a top for a crop rotation? What's your theory?

Also, I'd never play the deck without Glacial Chasm in the main.

Why Gut Shot? Why not Elephant Grass?

Map/Ponder/Top/Crop share a symbiotic relationship in their overlap. Despite me loving top, an increased ponder count and reduced map count necessitates a max'd crop rotate count.

I have been winning events with Chasm sb'd for months now, and long before that as well. The only matchups where you NEED it game 1 are elves and burn, helpful in outlier decks like MUD and infect and dredge.

Gut Shot is experimental at the moment, but I like where it is at. non-lord aggro, Aven Mindcensor, and elves all cut out in one fell swoop.

Elephant grass is for entirely different matchups, with the only real overlap being goblins, where gut shot is sub par anyhow.

[That nice guy]

Map/Ponder/Top/Crop share a symbiotic relationship in their overlap. Despite me loving top, an increased ponder count and reduced map count necessitates a max'd crop rotate count.

I have been winning events with Chasm sb'd for months now, and long before that as well. The only matchups where you NEED it game 1 are elves and burn, helpful in outlier decks like MUD and infect and dredge.

Gut Shot is experimental at the moment, but I like where it is at. non-lord aggro, Aven Mindcensor, and elves all cut out in one fell swoop.

Elephant grass is for entirely different matchups, with the only real overlap being goblins, where gut shot is sub par anyhow.

I see, very interesting, seems streamlined. Brilliant.

I think maybe I'm foreseeing / fearing too much merfolk and random matchups like goblins and burn. The fringe does come up at a large tournament(and always seems to knock me out). I guess that's what gutshot is for.
Elves is nothing to scoff at though, it's everywhere and a very serious threat to be giving up game 1.

How have the forces main been? Seems like combo is already prepared to overwhelm them, so where have they shined?

[Rock Lee]

I see, very interesting, seems streamlined. Brilliant.

I think maybe I'm foreseeing / fearing too much merfolk and random matchups like goblins and burn. The fringe does come up at a large tournament(and always seems to knock me out). I guess that's what gutshot is for.
Elves is nothing to scoff at though, it's everywhere and a very serious threat to be giving up game 1.

How have the forces main been? Seems like combo is already prepared to overwhelm them, so where have they shined?

Still haven't had a major event with the forces yet, but the testing has pointed them towards being very strong. Their major role is punching through the fow-shield that can keep delver-decks still irritating and having a chance of just barely eeking out match losses. Previously there were un-beatable hands, but this configuration minimizes those circumstances.

Against combo, simply having fow main isn't sufficient against 75% of the combo decks out there, but still gives you game.

Again vs elves, I dislike having to likely go down to 1 permanent vs them and still having to win vs deathrite untaps.dec, which they can transform into easily.

I found with 4 ponder and 4 show, also merfolk losing to any fattie not just titan, that the problems vs aggro have been minimal, and assembling s&t/titan is easy.

[Mockingbird]

Still haven't had a major event with the forces yet, but the testing has pointed them towards being very strong. Their major role is punching through the fow-shield that can keep delver-decks still irritating and having a chance of just barely eeking out match losses. Previously there were un-beatable hands, but this configuration minimizes those circumstances.

Against combo, simply having fow main isn't sufficient against 75% of the combo decks out there, but still gives you game.

Again vs elves, I dislike having to likely go down to 1 permanent vs them and still having to win vs deathrite untaps.dec, which they can transform into easily.

I found with 4 ponder and 4 show, also merfolk losing to any fattie not just titan, that the problems vs aggro have been minimal, and assembling s&t/titan is easy.

So I've been testing your list card for card online and this is what I've noticed so far:

Force of Will is a beast. It gives us turn one outs as well as a way for our Show and Tells to not to be as dead against other Show and Show variant decks. Feeding Show and Tell to a Force of Will to kill their Show and Tell kills two birds with one stone. And the best part about Force of Will in this deck, so far, is that when I didn't have a spare Blue card to pitch, I realized that I could hard cast it before other decks would have the mana to do so.

Swan Song is self explanatory good, but emphasize... I really like it. It shores up other matches where siding in Flusterstorm is a questionable but still reasonable choice to the point where I don't have to anymore.

I don't miss Expedition Map; I wish I'd thought to suggest replacing it with Ponder back when we first disagreed over Map, but Map has been effectively replaced. Now that we're picking up cantrips, it does make me curious about whether or not we can find room for or test out Preordain.

[203995014]

Could we use something like Devastation Tide instead of Gut Shot? Gut Shot just seems really narrow...

Or maybe if you're in a meta that requires Gut Shot you might as well just use the red splash?

[Mockingbird]

Could we use something like Devastation Tide instead of Gut Shot? Gut Shot just seems really narrow...

Or maybe if you're in a meta that requires Gut Shot you might as well just use the red splash?

When I see creatures with 1 toughness, I'm glad to see or want to see Gut Shot because killing is a better solution than bouncing, but I'm not dedicated to that idea enough to say add red mana to solve them and more with Lightning Bolt because I like the idea of mana free removal.

I don't know if I'm going to say Gut Shot has to stick because something better can easily come along, but thus far it's worth my side board space.

[Rock Lee]

Could we use something like Devastation Tide instead of Gut Shot? Gut Shot just seems really narrow...

Or maybe if you're in a meta that requires Gut Shot you might as well just use the red splash?

An important question when building sideboards is "why?" Too-often people want to add cards simply because they want to improve a matchup that doesn't need improving, or because they like one card in particular. In this deck that flaw is fatal, since the cardpool is enormous both in function and due to massive mana availability.

I welcome you to tell me how Devastation Tide is a good card in the current meta. I would challenge you that against decks where you would side it in over Gut Shot, it is sorely too slow, and against decks where gut shot is dead, you have solid game against with this build.

[203995014]

An important question when building sideboards is "why?" Too-often people want to add cards simply because they want to improve a matchup that doesn't need improving, or because they like one card in particular. In this deck that flaw is fatal, since the cardpool is enormous both in function and due to massive mana availability.

I welcome you to tell me how Devastation Tide is a good card in the current meta. I would challenge you that against decks where you would side it in over Gut Shot, it is sorely too slow, and against decks where gut shot is dead, you have solid game against with this build.

The real question that should be asked here is "When is gut shot good?"

If Gut Shot dealt 2 damage it would be MUCH better as it would have a much larger kill range. However, because it only deals 1 damage, there aren't as many creatures we can kill the deck we board it in vs. it ends up being dead quite often.

The Bad Matchups for this deck are:
Fast Combo
Jund
MUD
Loam-based decks
Merfolk Goblin Elves, Fast Aggro in general


Vs. Jund you can only kill Dark Confidant so usually it is dead, but if it can kill a Dark Confidant it's good. However you wouldn't board in a card JUST to deal with Dark Confidant.
You can't really expect to target anything vs. Fast Combo except MAYBE Xantid Swarm if you're boarding it in at all or Children of Koilos if the opponent is a Tin Fins deck and is stupid.
Obviously the creatures in MUD are too big to Gut Shot
You can kill Dark Confidant vs. Loam Based decks but that's about it.
VS. Merfolk you can only kill cursecatcher, vs. Goblins you can kill Goblin Lackey so that's decent, vs. Elves you have A LOT of targets including Heritage Druid, Quirion Ranger, Wirewood Symbiote, Elvish Visionary, etc.. You MIGHT board it in to kill Goblin Lackey and you would DEFINITELY board it in vs. elves.

Vs. the decks we are bad against, we can only kill Dark Confidant, Xantid Swarn, Goblin Lackey, and A LOT of elves. It seems the only matchup that you would really board it in vs. is Elves to help the matchup tremendously but vs. other decks it just isn't very useful.

Of course there are a lot of other creatures we could kill such as delver of secrets or phyrexian revoker but those are in decks that don't need improvement in matchups. Unless Gut Shot is in the sideboard specifically to improve the Elves matchup I'm failing to see the big idea in it.

[Maagler]

An important question when building sideboards is "why?" Too-often people want to add cards simply because they want to improve a matchup that doesn't need improving, or because they like one card in particular. In this deck that flaw is fatal, since the cardpool is enormous both in function and due to massive mana availability.

I welcome you to tell me how Devastation Tide is a good card in the current meta. I would challenge you that against decks where you would side it in over Gut Shot, it is sorely too slow, and against decks where gut shot is dead, you have solid game against with this build.

So are you having trouble with delver decks? Is that why you are including gut shots?

I think they are a good addition if you have a ton of delver in the meta. They avoid daze and if the rug player does counter it, that's just one less counter for show and tell.

The only problem I see with gutshot is that it doesnt kill much other than the unflipped delver.

Although it's nice vs elves, I haven't had much of a problem in that match anyways. Elves doesn't run wasteland so glacial chasm is boss in this match.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I547 using Tapatalk

[kingtk3]

Just returned from a 62 man event with a disappointing finish, playing the RUG no candelabra list.

R1 vs junk depths, 0-2: loam-waste lock both games. In G2 I manage to play ulamog but the single card he had was smallpox.

R2 vs Affinity, 2-1: G1 he races me, G2 I bounce and bolt some stuff and play a fast emrakul, G3 glacial chasm saves me while I assemble mana and finish him with bonfire

R3 vs Canadian RUG, 2-1: he wins G1 with stifle on titan cib and then turning him (with turn // burn) and bolting him. G2 I beat him with titan then finish him with bonfire; G3 I clean his board of 2 delvers with bonfire, then assemble ugin + emmy

R4 vs Reanimator, 0-2: G1 he's on the play and exhumes jin on turn 3, I brainstorm->fetch->brainstorm but don't find karakas. In G2 I open a seven with both fow and swan song, he discards my titan then try to reanimate him: I counter his first attemp but on his second he has fow for my fow. I made a mistake in crop rotating into cloudpost instead glacial chasm tough.

The list felt good and I surely need more testing against the more troublesome matchups.

Btw, I would like to read your comments on how to side and play against loam.

The list:

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [LRW] Island
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [R] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [US] Show and Tell
3 [M12] Ponder
3 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
3 [4E] Lightning Bolt

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 1 bojuka bog
SB: 1 glacial chasm
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [ME] Force of Will
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 2 pithing needle

[203995014]

Just returned from a 62 man event with a disappointing finish, playing the RUG no candelabra list.

R1 vs junk depths, 0-2: loam-waste lock both games. In G2 I manage to play ulamog but the single card he had was smallpox.

R2 vs Affinity, 2-1: G1 he races me, G2 I bounce and bolt some stuff and play a fast emrakul, G3 glacial chasm saves me while I assemble mana and finish him with bonfire

R3 vs Canadian RUG, 2-1: he wins G1 with stifle on titan cib and then turning him (with turn // burn) and bolting him. G2 I beat him with titan then finish him with bonfire; G3 I clean his board of 2 delvers with bonfire, then assemble ugin + emmy

R4 vs Reanimator, 0-2: G1 he's on the play and exhumes jin on turn 3, I brainstorm->fetch->brainstorm but don't find karakas. In G2 I open a seven with both fow and swan song, he discards my titan then try to reanimate him: I counter his first attemp but on his second he has fow for my fow. I made a mistake in crop rotating into cloudpost instead glacial chasm tough.

The list felt good and I surely need more testing against the more troublesome matchups.

Btw, I would like to read your comments on how to side and play against loam.

The list:

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [LRW] Island
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [R] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [US] Show and Tell
3 [M12] Ponder
3 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
3 [4E] Lightning Bolt

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 1 bojuka bog
SB: 1 glacial chasm
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [ME] Force of Will
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 2 pithing needle


Pithing Needle slows them down immensely. Your goal in this matchup should be to Show and Tell a fatty into play.

[TimHarding]

Today I won the Lost Harbor Jace, the Mind Sculptor legacy tourney in Westfield, MA. 5 rounds double elim. I ran this:

[MD]
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Bajouka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
2 Candelabra of Townos
2 Pithing Needle
4 Repeal
4 Show and Tell

[SB]
4 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swan Song
2 Cursed Totem
1 Glacial Chasm

Overall, I'm pleased with the list. It has also tested well in general. Oracle, ponder, crop rotation, cavern of souls, and flusterstorm were very strong performers. Chasm was better in the side in this meta (thanks, Rock Lee). I might go +1 Ponder, -1 Map going forward but I'm not sure; I like attacking tempo with early permanents.

I'm also considering adding 1 GSZ. I think it'll play well with ponder.

@Gut Shot: I prefer my SB cards to have broad application, and I don't think gut shot cuts it for me. I'm comfortable right now relying on force of will and repeal to deal with early threats. Also 2 toughness is huge in legacy. I'd suggest playing pongify/rapid hybridization first. Most creatures shouldn't bother your plan, if it's THAT bad, then they can have a 3/3.

[Rock Lee]

Since going to 4 ponder and including Fow I haven't had problems with Jund at all. Gut Shot is not there for that matchup.

It is there 90% for Elves and Death and Taxes, 10% for random aggro (affinity/goblins) or other combo with X/1's.

I feel so confident with the rest of that matchups with the current list that the sideboard can afford 3 open slots, and no other card stops two major early-game contestors with odd openers, that being Elves & D&T, like gut shot does.

[Rock Lee]

Just returned from a 62 man event with a disappointing finish, playing the RUG no candelabra list.

R1 vs junk depths, 0-2: loam-waste lock both games. In G2 I manage to play ulamog but the single card he had was smallpox.

R2 vs Affinity, 2-1: G1 he races me, G2 I bounce and bolt some stuff and play a fast emrakul, G3 glacial chasm saves me while I assemble mana and finish him with bonfire

R3 vs Canadian RUG, 2-1: he wins G1 with stifle on titan cib and then turning him (with turn // burn) and bolting him. G2 I beat him with titan then finish him with bonfire; G3 I clean his board of 2 delvers with bonfire, then assemble ugin + emmy

R4 vs Reanimator, 0-2: G1 he's on the play and exhumes jin on turn 3, I brainstorm->fetch->brainstorm but don't find karakas. In G2 I open a seven with both fow and swan song, he discards my titan then try to reanimate him: I counter his first attemp but on his second he has fow for my fow. I made a mistake in crop rotating into cloudpost instead glacial chasm tough.

The list felt good and I surely need more testing against the more troublesome matchups.

Btw, I would like to read your comments on how to side and play against loam.

The list:

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [LRW] Island
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [R] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [US] Show and Tell
3 [M12] Ponder
3 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
3 [4E] Lightning Bolt

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 1 bojuka bog
SB: 1 glacial chasm
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [ME] Force of Will
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 2 pithing needle


Triple Island of my build goes a long way vs Junk Depths, and you essentially transform into a basic-island combo deck, that is always looking for an opportunity to blow them out with an instant bojuka bog.

Vs Reanimator you ALWAYS side out primeval titan specially for this circumstance. Eldrazi are "safe" creatures in that they can't be reanimated, and you have plenty to side in vs them anyway.

[Davek]

Today I won the Lost Harbor Jace, the Mind Sculptor legacy tourney in Westfield, MA. 5 rounds double elim. I ran this:

[MD]
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Bajouka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
2 Candelabra of Townos
2 Pithing Needle
4 Repeal
4 Show and Tell

[SB]
4 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swan Song
2 Cursed Totem
1 Glacial Chasm

Overall, I'm pleased with the list. It has also tested well in general. Oracle, ponder, crop rotation, cavern of souls, and flusterstorm were very strong performers. Chasm was better in the side in this meta (thanks, Rock Lee). I might go +1 Ponder, -1 Map going forward but I'm not sure; I like attacking tempo with early permanents.

I'm also considering adding 1 GSZ. I think it'll play well with ponder.

Congrats on your finish! I'll probably be attending a tournament in my area next sunday and i really appreciate your list, i may give it a spin. What is your meta by the way?

[edk]

Since going to 4 ponder and including Fow I haven't had problems with Jund at all. Gut Shot is not there for that matchup.

It is there 90% for Elves and Death and Taxes, 10% for random aggro (affinity/goblins) or other combo with X/1's.

I feel so confident with the rest of that matchups with the current list that the sideboard can afford 3 open slots, and no other card stops two major early-game contestors with odd openers, that being Elves & D&T, like gut shot does.
Isn't Piracy Charm more polyvalent in this role ? It kills the same creatures than Gut shot does, has a discard effet not so useless versus combo and it is a blue card (for Fow).

[kingtk3]

Pithing Needle slows them down immensely. Your goal in this matchup should be to Show and Tell a fatty into play.

I had one needle on liliana and then needed to cast the second on trespian stage because I finished my repeals, so wasteland got me. Anyway at some point he played engineered explosive @1 and blew me away.


Triple Island of my build goes a long way vs Junk Depths, and you essentially transform into a basic-island combo deck, that is always looking for an opportunity to blow them out with an instant bojuka bog.

Vs Reanimator you ALWAYS side out primeval titan specially for this circumstance. Eldrazi are "safe" creatures in that they can't be reanimated, and you have plenty to side in vs them anyway.

Surely three basic lands gives you an edge, but that's a luxury I don't think the 3 color version can afford (Altough I will try -1 tropical +1 forest at this point).
But wasteland is not the real problem: liliana and, most of all, loam are. Do you think a sigle bojuka is enough to address grave problematic cards? Do you side in some counter in this matchup? I'm almost contemplating about adding some life from the loam in the side myself...

About Reanimator: wow, the thought of sideing out titans didn't cross my mind but I can see now that's a correct choice. I guess practice and knowledge of the deck is tech.

Since you're sideing out titans, do you side out S&T as well?

A note on the UGr version: I really like it since it has many control elements and bonfire helps both in stalling than in closing the match. The next tournament, however, I will try the UG version with candelabra because I want to understand the difference between the two.

Thank you all for your help!!!

[Rock Lee]

Isn't Piracy Charm more polyvalent in this role ? It kills the same creatures than Gut shot does, has a discard effet not so useless versus combo and it is a blue card (for Fow).

I debated Piracy Charm, but you can't ponder/brainstorm turn 1 to dig for a t1 removal for mom/llanowar.

[Rock Lee]

I had one needle on liliana and then needed to cast the second on trespian stage because I finished my repeals, so wasteland got me. Anyway at some point he played engineered explosive @1 and blew me away.



Surely three basic lands gives you an edge, but that's a luxury I don't think the 3 color version can afford (Altough I will try -1 tropical +1 forest at this point).
But wasteland is not the real problem: liliana and, most of all, loam are. Do you think a sigle bojuka is enough to address grave problematic cards? Do you side in some counter in this matchup? I'm almost contemplating about adding some life from the loam in the side myself...

About Reanimator: wow, the thought of sideing out titans didn't cross my mind but I can see now that's a correct choice. I guess practice and knowledge of the deck is tech.

Since you're sideing out titans, do you side out S&T as well?

A note on the UGr version: I really like it since it has many control elements and bonfire helps both in stalling than in closing the match. The next tournament, however, I will try the UG version with candelabra because I want to understand the difference between the two.

Thank you all for your help!!!
Definitely side out S&T vs anything that can easily put in a griselbrand/Emrakul, especially if they can also run blood moon, which disables your ability to karakas back their legend.

[Davek]

I had one needle on liliana and then needed to cast the second on trespian stage because I finished my repeals, so wasteland got me. Anyway at some point he played engineered explosive @1 and blew me away.



Surely three basic lands gives you an edge, but that's a luxury I don't think the 3 color version can afford (Altough I will try -1 tropical +1 forest at this point).
But wasteland is not the real problem: liliana and, most of all, loam are. Do you think a sigle bojuka is enough to address grave problematic cards? Do you side in some counter in this matchup? I'm almost contemplating about adding some life from the loam in the side myself...

A note on the UGr version: I really like it since it has many control elements and bonfire helps both in stalling than in closing the match. The next tournament, however, I will try the UG version with candelabra because I want to understand the difference between the two.

Thank you all for your help!!!

Did you go for some serious money investment? :)
I didn't test the UGr build for a long time, but i think you'll find the plain UG one generally better. Of course you have to keep an eye on opponents creatures, because you cannot simply rely on miracling a bonfire or shooting a bolt to them, but you gain a lot in mana stability. The UGr mana base is a total mess, a single wasteland can really put you out of the game; basically, every land your opponent may target could ruin your plan.
Your jund matchup is going to worse, anyway. This and his blue cousin (BUG delver) are the only fair decks i fear, due to the high discard amount paired with an high pressure. Merfolk is tough too, but most of the merfolk players have gone greedy and added a full set of TNN, slowing down their aggro plan. That's why i suggest bringing some good ol' sweepers with you if you think your meta could be filled with these contenders.

[kingtk3]

Did you go for some serious money investment? :)
I didn't test the UGr build for a long time, but i think you'll find the plain UG one generally better. Of course you have to keep an eye on opponents creatures, because you cannot simply rely on miracling a bonfire or shooting a bolt to them, but you gain a lot in mana stability. The UGr mana base is a total mess, a single wasteland can really put you out of the game; basically, every land your opponent may target could ruin your plan.
Your jund matchup is going to worse, anyway. This and his blue cousin (BUG delver) are the only fair decks i fear, due to the high discard amount paired with an high pressure. Merfolk is tough too, but most of the merfolk players have gone greedy and added a full set of TNN, slowing down their aggro plan. That's why i suggest bringing some good ol' sweepers with you if you think your meta could be filled with these contenders.

No, I bent myself at playing with two proxies... shame on me ^_^
I think I'll really miss bonfire which has performed very well for me, but I want to try all the versions to find the one that fits me better.

I don't think that a single wasteland is so much of a problem though: usually the first target is a locus so the colored lands are safe, a kind of. Even if they see my hand (ie with discard) and destroy a colored land I can usually find a replacement with all the cantrips in the deck.

What really destroys this deck is, obviously, a wasteland lock: with the UG version at least you can afford to play 3-4 basic lands to ensure casting S&T, but it is a tough scenario anyway. I think that more grave hate is needed if you're playing ponder instead of expedition map (that can search infallibly for bojuka bog).

In any case I'll find room for at least 2 oblivion stone in the 75's for the UG version.

[TimHarding]

Congrats on your finish! I'll probably be attending a tournament in my area next sunday and i really appreciate your list, i may give it a spin. What is your meta by the way?

Thanks! Good luck. The meta in New England is heavily net decked and more or less mimics the most recent SCG top finishes. Elves is huge. Sneak, DnT, loam decks, bug delver, rug delver, patriot delver, all stone blade. It's pretty open.


Since going to 4 ponder and including Fow I haven't had problems with Jund at all. Gut Shot is not there for that matchup.

It is there 90% for Elves and Death and Taxes, 10% for random aggro (affinity/goblins) or other combo with X/1's.

I feel so confident with the rest of that matchups with the current list that the sideboard can afford 3 open slots, and no other card stops two major early-game contestors with odd openers, that being Elves & D&T, like gut shot does.

I also agree that the only huge holes right now are elves and DnT (omni would be too but it's falling out of style), and I chose to go with the cursed totem to hit them hard. It's sick against elves, and with needles DnT is even more contained that I don't feel pressured. I usually force of will vial, aven, and revoker - and needle/totem take care of the rest. What's sweet is to side in totem at all stoneforge as a bonus haha. Plus, it hits griselbrand.

[Rock Lee]

Thanks! Good luck. The meta in New England is heavily net decked and more or less mimics the most recent SCG top finishes. Elves is huge. Sneak, DnT, loam decks, bug delver, rug delver, patriot delver, all stone blade. It's pretty open.



I also agree that the only huge holes right now are elves and DnT (omni would be too but it's falling out of style), and I chose to go with the cursed totem to hit them hard. It's sick against elves, and with needles DnT is even more contained that I don't feel pressured. I usually force of will vial, aven, and revoker - and needle/totem take care of the rest. What's sweet is to side in totem at all stoneforge as a bonus haha. Plus, it hits griselbrand.

I Lost too many games vs Elves with Cursed totem in my hand after my turn 1 as they combo off, or in play while they elf aggro my dead or abuse wirewood bouncing viridian shaman. So now I'm happy with a good ol' kill spell.

[TimHarding]

I Lost too many games vs Elves with Cursed totem in my hand after my turn 1 as they combo off, or in play while they elf aggro my dead or abuse wirewood bouncing viridian shaman. So now I'm happy with a good ol' kill spell.

Ive had success using FOW and needle early to keep those shenanigans in check long enough to move on. Do you still side in all the counters? However, I hate that damn deck so much I'll test the gut shots! I wish there was a land with a 1 dmg enter the battlefield trigger lol

[chris80rowland]

// Lands
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [M12] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [NPH] Gut Shot
SB: 1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

What with no major events in the last MONTH, I haven't been able to report on findings. So I haven't been discussing my changes and debated alterations.
Why did you move away from needles/map t mage/ and all of those cards? And add cards like ponder?

[somethingdotdotdot]

I've been tinkering with turbo eldrazi a bit because the metagame seems pretty favorable to it. I went back and continued working on a bant list because I really liked how the list played a bit like miracles but with more inevitability. This is what I'm at right now, curious if anyone has any suggestions to change it.

Creatures (9)
4x Primeval Titan
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Atorn
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Ulamog the Infinite Gyre
2x Snapcaster Mage

Spells (26)
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Terminus
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Brainstorm
4x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Ponder
4x Show and Tell
3x Crop Rotation

Lands (26)
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Tundra
2x Tropical Island
2x Savannah
1x Island
4x Glimmerpost
4x Cloudpost
2x Karakas
1x Eye of Ugin

The snapcaster mage has been pretty good in this version. He can either buy back swords to give you more control; buy back brainstorm to give you manipulation; or buy back show and tell to give you gas. Terminus has also been situationally amazing. I also cut pretty much all of the situational lands to consistently get colored mana to start using swords and brainstorm.

I'm also curious what the main plan vs sneak show is for you guys. I know you board in the 8-12 counters+ venser and needle. Needle naming sneak is probably the best target on a blind name as this deck has a lot of outs to show. Another problem is that a resolved moon is pretty much impossible to win against unless I already have a pretty good board presence. What have you guys been doing to better this matchup?

[Mockingbird]

I've been tinkering with turbo eldrazi a bit because the metagame seems pretty favorable to it. I went back and continued working on a bant list because I really liked how the list played a bit like miracles but with more inevitability. This is what I'm at right now, curious if anyone has any suggestions to change it.

Creatures (9)
4x Primeval Titan
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Atorn
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Ulamog the Infinite Gyre
2x Snapcaster Mage

Spells (26)
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Terminus
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Brainstorm
4x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Ponder
4x Show and Tell
3x Crop Rotation

Lands (26)
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Tundra
2x Tropical Island
2x Savannah
1x Island
4x Glimmerpost
4x Cloudpost
2x Karakas
1x Eye of Ugin

The snapcaster mage has been pretty good in this version. He can either buy back swords to give you more control; buy back brainstorm to give you manipulation; or buy back show and tell to give you gas. Terminus has also been situationally amazing. I also cut pretty much all of the situational lands to consistently get colored mana to start using swords and brainstorm.

I'm also curious what the main plan vs sneak show is for you guys. I know you board in the 8-12 counters+ venser and needle. Needle naming sneak is probably the best target on a blind name as this deck has a lot of outs to show. Another problem is that a resolved moon is pretty much impossible to win against unless I already have a pretty good board presence. What have you guys been doing to better this matchup?

Quick thing: take out the second Karakas. We only need one and it's more of the bonus than a necessity. Plus even under the new legend rule, multiples are a pain. Also, when you say "Terminus has also been situationally amazing" (emphasis: mine), I grow suspicious of just how good it is. But even though I'm weary of splashing white for Bant-Post, I'm interested as to how it works compared to Simic-Post.

I'm curious how Snapcaster Mage tests. Keep us posted because the normal go to little-utility-guy-that-can is Trinket Mage.

My current plan for Sneak n Show:
G1: Force of Will the Show and Tell or Sneak Attack, preferably exiling my Show and Tell to pay for the alt. cost because like hell I'm going to accelerate their plan for them. Then pray my follow-up is better than their follow up. It's not guaranteed, but God tends to answer my prayers to survive game 1 more often through Force of Will than me requesting God to mana flood my opponent.
G2&3: Bring in Swan Song and Flusterstorm... but really Swan Song. Then keep praying God favors my counter magic.

And about Blood Moon: There are two ways to get around a Blood Moon in my experience.

1. Make sure you get a basic Island onto the field. Then when you have enough mana and a counter (Force of Will or Swan Song), Repeal the Blood Moon, then counter it when they recast it. The drawback is that it's a contrivance to pull this off, but the positive is it's possible (I've done it) and doesn't require eating sideboard space.
2. Make sure you get a basic Forest onto the field, then Nature's Claim it. The drawback is that your siding a card that we don't need that often and putting a Forest into the deck, which while not bad, is not necessary (at the moment) because we need :u: more, but the positive is that it gets the job done without investing extra resources (1 card instead of 2) aside from winning the counter war that may or may not ensue. And as a side note, when substituting Blood Moon with Choke, I really want to give 2 a shot.

[somethingdotdotdot]

The second karakas is just a flex land slot that I'm playing around with. I was thinking that the extra karakas might be good vs sneak/show, but it hasnt done too much work. I think i might replace it with a plains to get at least a second basic for the deck.

Vs sneak/show: its usually a combination of sneak and blood moon that really get me. I usually can turn off sneak with a needle, but I usually dont have a follow up for the blood moon. I feel like counters often aren't enough to get there since the deck doesn't really represent a clock until t7-8 w/o show.

Edit: By situationally good, I mean that terminus is about as good as it is in miracles. Its sometimes a 1 for 1 off the top, or its sometimes a one mana wrath for 2-3 creatures. Other times, its stuck in hand for a while. That's just the nature of miracle spells in general. However, I should mention that 4WW isn't difficult to reach with this deck and I have flashed back terminus a couple of times in longer games.

[Rock Lee]

I've been tinkering with turbo eldrazi a bit because the metagame seems pretty favorable to it. I went back and continued working on a bant list because I really liked how the list played a bit like miracles but with more inevitability. This is what I'm at right now, curious if anyone has any suggestions to change it.

Creatures (9)
4x Primeval Titan
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Atorn
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Ulamog the Infinite Gyre
2x Snapcaster Mage

Spells (26)
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Terminus
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Brainstorm
4x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Ponder
4x Show and Tell
3x Crop Rotation

Lands (26)
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Tundra
2x Tropical Island
2x Savannah
1x Island
4x Glimmerpost
4x Cloudpost
2x Karakas
1x Eye of Ugin

The snapcaster mage has been pretty good in this version. He can either buy back swords to give you more control; buy back brainstorm to give you manipulation; or buy back show and tell to give you gas. Terminus has also been situationally amazing. I also cut pretty much all of the situational lands to consistently get colored mana to start using swords and brainstorm.

I'm also curious what the main plan vs sneak show is for you guys. I know you board in the 8-12 counters+ venser and needle. Needle naming sneak is probably the best target on a blind name as this deck has a lot of outs to show. Another problem is that a resolved moon is pretty much impossible to win against unless I already have a pretty good board presence. What have you guys been doing to better this matchup?

I MD fow, and I run 3 island. Simple enough. The matchup greatly improved. If you run needle, even moreso.

[Ralf]

I've been tinkering with turbo eldrazi a bit because the metagame seems pretty favorable to it. I went back and continued working on a bant list because I really liked how the list played a bit like miracles but with more inevitability. This is what I'm at right now, curious if anyone has any suggestions to change it.

Creatures (9)
4x Primeval Titan
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Atorn
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Ulamog the Infinite Gyre
2x Snapcaster Mage

Spells (26)
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Terminus
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Brainstorm
4x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Ponder
4x Show and Tell
3x Crop Rotation

Lands (26)
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Tundra
2x Tropical Island
2x Savannah
1x Island
4x Glimmerpost
4x Cloudpost
2x Karakas
1x Eye of Ugin

The snapcaster mage has been pretty good in this version. He can either buy back swords to give you more control; buy back brainstorm to give you manipulation; or buy back show and tell to give you gas. Terminus has also been situationally amazing. I also cut pretty much all of the situational lands to consistently get colored mana to start using swords and brainstorm.

I'm also curious what the main plan vs sneak show is for you guys. I know you board in the 8-12 counters+ venser and needle. Needle naming sneak is probably the best target on a blind name as this deck has a lot of outs to show. Another problem is that a resolved moon is pretty much impossible to win against unless I already have a pretty good board presence. What have you guys been doing to better this matchup?

I would cut STP, if I were you.
It forces you to fetch early for a colored land and obviously for a dual which is clearly a no-go.
I would rather use "Repeal" instead which is also nice with snapcaster (cute shenanigans).
IMO drawing 1 card is > to removing a threat from the game. The tempo gain is nearly identical and you dig better.
No to mention that Repeal could be HUGE against moon blood.deck or choke.

Also casting Repeal (by turn 3 or before) is easier with at least 3 basics MD as is casting Show & Tell.

But I know that the mana investment to play repeal over STP could sometimes cost some games. The other way round, having access to a bounce effect instead of a STP will win you games.

Finally, replace one of your karakas with a cavern of souls.
This card is huge, really. I cannot count how many times I have won against tempo thanks to it.

[TimHarding]

I think bant is sort of a trap. Enticing cards like swords and terminus are only slightly and situationally more effective than their blue counterparts - repeal, ostone etc. The price is unnecessary early exposure to wasteland, color assembly problems, and overall complete durdling with little threat of pressure. I think the sneak/show and tell combo problem is that you are guaranteed giving them a pile of turns to sculpt. Moon only further highlights the manabase problem.

[somethingdotdotdot]

The reason I play swords over repeal is because the deck's playstyle is fundamentally slower. I took out most of the tutoring and accelerating package, leaving only primeval titan. Because of this, the deck combos out a lot more slowly and so permanently removing the creature has been quite important. Terminus is also quicker than oblivion stone which has been relevant a good number of times.

I also don't think the manabase is as bad as you guys make it out to be. I replaced the second karakas with a plains and its let me cast show and tell around wasteland pretty successfully. Green has basically become a small splash to find the eye of ugin or accelerate with titan when i've already established control. Green is usually the 3rd or 4th mana source I want. Wasting usually isnt very relevant. Overall, this deck has more on color and less citp sources to open with than traditional simic post.

MD forces also seem better for the simic version because you REALLY need to force that show through at times. In this deck, the show is more of a...oh hey heres a titan after i wiped your field card. Flashing it back with snapcaster has also been a frequent line of play. This line has been really good vs GBx decks as their primary route to titan removal tends to be liliana's -2.

As for the combo problem, I might try a different attack route--loading up on hatebears with a couple of fow/flusterstorms rather than swan song.

[Ralf]

The reason I play swords over repeal is because the deck's playstyle is fundamentally slower. I took out most of the tutoring and accelerating package, leaving only primeval titan. Because of this, the deck combos out a lot more slowly and so permanently removing the creature has been quite important. Terminus is also quicker than oblivion stone which has been relevant a good number of times.

I also don't think the manabase is as bad as you guys make it out to be. I replaced the second karakas with a plains and its let me cast show and tell around wasteland pretty successfully. Green has basically become a small splash to find the eye of ugin or accelerate with titan when i've already established control. Green is usually the 3rd or 4th mana source I want. Wasting usually isnt very relevant. Overall, this deck has more on color and less citp sources to open with than traditional simic post.

MD forces also seem better for the simic version because you REALLY need to force that show through at times. In this deck, the show is more of a...oh hey heres a titan after i wiped your field card. Flashing it back with snapcaster has also been a frequent line of play. This line has been really good vs GBx decks as their primary route to titan removal tends to be liliana's -2.

As for the combo problem, I might try a different attack route--loading up on hatebears with a couple of fow/flusterstorms rather than swan song.

Didn't say to cut "white". Just to replace STP.
Terminus is great and therefore, why not playing it in Post Eldrazi along SDT and ponders !
I'm not very fond of your manabase but you are the one who suggests it so if it works, then it works !

[Rock Lee]

Just won the Newington, CT SCG Super IQ 1k (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27178-Newington-CT-01-19-2014-SCG-SUPER-IQ-Legacy)with this list:

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [US] Show and Tell
3 [M12] Ponder
2 [10E] Pithing Needle
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [RLM] Glacial Chasm
SB: 1 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 1 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge

I will supply a brief report soon, but figured I would throw out a list for chewing sake.
Matchups were BUG delver, UWR delver, Bant, ID, ID, Top 8 Storm, Top 4 Elves, Finals URW delver (same player from swiss)

[TimHarding]

just won the newington, ct scg super iq 1k (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27178-newington-ct-01-19-2014-scg-super-iq-legacy)with this list:

I will supply a brief report soon, but figured i would throw out a list for chewing sake.
Matchups were bug delver, uwr delver, bant, id, id, top 8 storm, top 4 elves, finals urw delver (same player from swiss)

represent!

[Davek]

Well done! Could you please tell us what did you sideboarded in/out for every matchup you faced?

[Rock Lee]

Well done! Could you please tell us what did you sideboarded in/out for every matchup you faced?

As I've said in the past, I don't have a clear in/out list. But here is my general siding.

Bug: No side. Just keep MD
UWR: Out- Bog. In- Glacial Chasm.
Bant: On the play -> Out- Showx2, In- Cursed Totem, Ensnaring Bridge. On the draw -> Out - Repealx2, In- Cursed Totem, Ensnaring Bridge.
Storm: Out -> Show & tellx4, Ulamog, Needlex2, Glimmerpostx1, Karakas, Primeval Titanx4 . In -> Force of Willx4, Swan Songx4, Flusterx3, Mindbreak Trapx1, Glacial Chasm
Elves: Out on the draw (didn't have a game on the play post side) -> Repealx4, Kozilek, Ulamog, Pithing Needlex2, Glimmerpostx1. In -> Force of Willx4, Flusterstormx3, Glacial Chasm, Cursed Totem.

Again I do NOT have specific lists, For example I took out Shows vs Bant mostly because he runs humility, which is terrible, and bad, but I still have to deal with.

[Postman]

Played a small tournament yesterday, 20 People. Went 3-1-1, place 4 at the end.

My current list :

25 Lands:
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
3 Island
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
2 Vesuva

8 Creatures:
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinte Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeone Torn

27 Spells:
4 Brainstorm
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Crop Rotation
1 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ponder
4 Repeal
3 Sensei’s Diving Top
4 Show and Tell


Sideboard:

4 Force of Will
4 Swan Song
4 Flusterstorm
2 Cursed Totem
1 Glacial Chasmn

Round 1 : Dredge (Mana), 2-0

Round 2 : D'n'T (with blue splash, WTF?!), 2-0

Round 3 : Nicfit, 1-1-1

Round 4 : Mono Red Burn, 2-0

Round 5 : Esperblade, 0-2

Round 3 was some Kind of bad luck, Mulligan down to 5 in second game, opponent hits me two times with hymn while I'm stuck at two lands, hitting Show and Tell & Titan, second one got one Eldrazi and something else...

Round 5 was the final table, and I thought : Esper, could be nice. But opponent got great hands, I had to mulligan. In both games he beat me down with early stoneforges plus Equipments (jitte, batterskull, sword of fire & ice).

Would be great to hear some ideas from Rock Lee or TimHarding on how they side against Esper?

I sided in Chasmn and Totems...

PS: Congrats @Rock Lee, again!^^

[Rock Lee]

Played a small tournament yesterday, 20 People. Went 3-1-1, place 4 at the end.

My current list :

25 Lands:
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
3 Island
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
2 Vesuva

8 Creatures:
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinte Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeone Torn

27 Spells:
4 Brainstorm
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Crop Rotation
1 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ponder
4 Repeal
3 Sensei’s Diving Top
4 Show and Tell


Sideboard:

4 Force of Will
4 Swan Song
4 Flusterstorm
2 Cursed Totem
1 Glacial Chasmn

Round 1 : Dredge (Mana), 2-0

Round 2 : D'n'T (with blue splash, WTF?!), 2-0

Round 3 : Nicfit, 1-1-1

Round 4 : Mono Red Burn, 2-0

Round 5 : Esperblade, 0-2

Round 3 was some Kind of bad luck, Mulligan down to 5 in second game, opponent hits me two times with hymn while I'm stuck at two lands, hitting Show and Tell & Titan, second one got one Eldrazi and something else...

Round 5 was the final table, and I thought : Esper, could be nice. But opponent got great hands, I had to mulligan. In both games he beat me down with early stoneforges plus Equipments (jitte, batterskull, sword of fire & ice).

Would be great to hear some ideas from Rock Lee or TimHarding on how they side against Esper?

I sided in Chasmn and Totems...

PS: Congrats @Rock Lee, again!^^

I rarely have issues with esper. It is worth mentioning that gsz and oracle are very dead vs them, so a more streamlined list helps against them. You race to Show-> Titan vs them, since they should be vindicating and wasting your hand away, but with heavy-enough cantrip/fixing, they can't discard you enough.

I also wouldn't bring in cursed totem vs them. It only hits stoneforge, which batterskull-withstanding, only cuts them off from 1-2 mana. And you WANT them to be abusing batterskull, since repeal undoes 4 mana and 2 turns for them.

Sounds more like you lost to mulligans and them having optimal hands than anything in particular. Although vs a good pilot of any archetype, you do need to play optimally with this deck.

[Postman]

I rarely have issues with esper. It is worth mentioning that gsz and oracle are very dead vs them, so a more streamlined list helps against them. You race to Show-> Titan vs them, since they should be vindicating and wasting your hand away, but with heavy-enough cantrip/fixing, they can't discard you enough.

I also wouldn't bring in cursed totem vs them. It only hits stoneforge, which batterskull-withstanding, only cuts them off from 1-2 mana. And you WANT them to be abusing batterskull, since repeal undoes 4 mana and 2 turns for them.

Sounds more like you lost to mulligans and them having optimal hands than anything in particular. Although vs a good pilot of any archetype, you do need to play optimally with this deck.

Thanks for fast reply!

You are absolutly right about the Oracle, no question. Zenith is meant to be my 5. Titan, allowing me to "cast" him with only one G, what is sometimes really nice.

Boarding Totem wasn't that great, right.

I will take a closer look at the Esper list of my opponent. He played not a single Wasteland, but at least two Snapcaster Mages. One of those won him game 1 :-( I was at 12 life, counting the max. damage my opponent could deal : 10 points. So I Play Cloudpost instead of Glimmerpost in order to play Glimmerpost next turn enabling hard cast of Emrakul. EoT he flashes in Snapcaster, and beats me for 12. No Crop Rotation in hand...

I guess I will do some testing with Trade Routes again as a SB card. If there are no lands in hand, it could be interesting to bounce Glimmerpost, Vesuva or bog in late game, and perhaps even chasmn (losing another land...ouch!)

[Maagler]

Just won the Newington, CT SCG Super IQ 1k (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27178-Newington-CT-01-19-2014-SCG-SUPER-IQ-Legacy)with this list:

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [US] Show and Tell
3 [M12] Ponder
2 [10E] Pithing Needle
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [RLM] Glacial Chasm
SB: 1 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 1 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge

I will supply a brief report soon, but figured I would throw out a list for chewing sake.
Matchups were BUG delver, UWR delver, Bant, ID, ID, Top 8 Storm, Top 4 Elves, Finals URW delver (same player from swiss)

Do you miss sweepers ever with this list?

[203995014]

Do you miss sweepers ever with this list?

Repeal takes care of everything. If you are in an Aggro-Infested meta then you shouldn't be playing sweepers since they are too fast, but rather cards like Elephant Grass or use the red splash.

[Rock Lee]

Do you miss sweepers ever with this list?

The only time I would include sweepers back into the list would be if one was printed that hit combo in some form.

I played O Stone when omni was the only pony in town. Tabernacle when only Storm. And bonfire when I mostly feared Elves.

Since the combo meta is too varied at the moment, a sweeper does not help.

If Merfolk becomes dominant then I will add sweepers again, as they were the only permanent based deck that required them.

[Maagler]

The only time I would include sweepers back into the list would be if one was printed that hit combo in some form.

I played O Stone when omni was the only pony in town. Tabernacle when only Storm. And bonfire when I mostly feared Elves.

Since the combo meta is too varied at the moment, a sweeper does not help.

If Merfolk becomes dominant then I will add sweepers again, as they were the only permanent based deck that required them.

Interesting. What are the merits of ostone against omni? I usually side them out against omni under the assumption that if their enchantment hits the board I've pretty much lost.

But on the other hand I cant seem to win this match regardless, so I might be playing it wrong.

[203995014]

Interesting. What are the merits of ostone against omni? I usually side them out against omni under the assumption that if their enchantment hits the board I've pretty much lost.

But on the other hand I cant seem to win this match regardless, so I might be playing it wrong.

Oblivion Stone vs. Omni-Tell is a desperate attempt made where you crack it after omniscience is put into play to destroy it. It also acts as a way to slow the game down so you force them to try and find a second copy of Show and Tell and Omniscience.

I have a question of my own: How is this deck going to deal with the newly spoiled Spirit of Labyrinth? Is it a problem at all? (Seems like it would be a problem with the 4 ponders and brainstorms, also the fact that repeal can't cantrip half of the time)

[Rock Lee]

Oblivion Stone vs. Omni-Tell is a desperate attempt made where you crack it after omniscience is put into play to destroy it. It also acts as a way to slow the game down so you force them to try and find a second copy of Show and Tell and Omniscience.

I have a question of my own: How is this deck going to deal with the newly spoiled Spirit of Labyrinth? Is it a problem at all? (Seems like it would be a problem with the 4 ponders and brainstorms, also the fact that repeal can't cantrip half of the time)

I foresee DnT becoming top-tier with Spirit's printing. I think Gutshot/dismember will be my likely alteration in the sideboard. If the deck gets out of control, I will change to the RUG version.

[psrex]

If you're ever worried enough about Death and Taxes to go back to the RUG version you might consider running Fire // Ice instead of Bonfire, as it still keeps your blue count up for FoW.

[Rock Lee]

If you're ever worried enough about Death and Taxes to go back to the RUG version you might consider running Fire // Ice instead of Bonfire, as it still keeps your blue count up for FoW.

Fire is definitely beast against both elves and DnT, while still having game vs SFM. If I do go red I will likely substitute Fire/Ice over Bolt.

Hopefully won't come to that though. The U/G version is serving me magnificently.

I will wait to see if DnT drops Mirran Crusader, which would make Fire//Ice an incredible 2-for-1 always.

[TimHarding]

Would be great to hear some ideas from Rock Lee or TimHarding on how they side against Esper?

I sided in Chasmn and Totems...


I rarely have issues with esper. It is worth mentioning that gsz and oracle are very dead vs them, so a more streamlined list helps against them. You race to Show-> Titan vs them, since they should be vindicating and wasting your hand away, but with heavy-enough cantrip/fixing, they can't discard you enough.

I also wouldn't bring in cursed totem vs them. It only hits stoneforge, which batterskull-withstanding, only cuts them off from 1-2 mana. And you WANT them to be abusing batterskull, since repeal undoes 4 mana and 2 turns for them.

Sounds more like you lost to mulligans and them having optimal hands than anything in particular. Although vs a good pilot of any archetype, you do need to play optimally with this deck.

First congrats to both on the great showings! Nice work. We seem to have some level of agreement on how to attack the format right now, and I'm sure you're enjoying it! I like both your lists a lot.

Regarding Esperblade: I agree with Rock Lee's comments. To me it also sounds like some bad beats, with the draws and pressure. If they go aggro (which is probably their best bet) tripping up can easily become a game loss. The snapcaster is definitely something to be weary of, I randomly lost to an EOT Notion Theif once, because I didn't know it was a 3/1 haha such JANK. You want to punish them for not respecting SnT when they do this. This matchup doesn't require any significant boarding. However, if I notice that their list is bent far in one direction, I might adjust to play style. For example, if I sense/see spell pierce in multiples, or lack of wasteland. I will often side out some or all crop rotations (not extreme because I play maps) for some counters of my own - Force or Fluster.

Patriot: I'll probably take out bog, Oracle, some Crop for some Counters. Often I'm on the island plan for this one.
StoneBlade: I'll keep the Oracle and explain in a minute. But if they are counter heavy I'll consider crop out for counters.
Deathblade: On the play I'll actually put in the totems. Probably shaving an eldrazi and candle. It's pretty great, though not entirely necessary.

These are among our best matchups, so these are all micro adjustments, if I sense a card not carrying its weight.
I want EVERY game to see at least 1 repeal, it is almost always the difference maker.


Now for Oracle. Ive had one in my 75 for months straight, and I love it. I want a 5th "titan effect", but I don't feel like playing more Vesuva and Candelabra to support GSZ (as my testing suggests), so there is oracle. Mainly there to be king against abrupt decay/hymn decks. It is an intermediate ramp spell, that actually adds another rogue win to the deck - the other being the mono colorless land>map>land>candle>land>eldrazi threat. If you untap with Oracle and a manipulation against a non-combo deck, you have basically won the game. Doubly if you have a shuffle effect. Of course if you are facing lightning bolt you should have pondered or topped before casting to get the two lands with priority held. I have even had positive testing with it against combo decks, abusing supreme library filtering to keep the counterspell lock going against Omni and other decks that take a long time to win over.

Now for sideboarding against blade variants. I actually leave it in, and my reason is sort of shotty, but seems to work. If they saw it game 1, they might now hesitate to side out as much creature removal as before. I'm into the idea of swords to plowshares games 2 and 3 lol. If they didn't see it, they probably sided out more removal, and are likely to get blown out by it. I've surveyed people after games who noted the tension it created. I only really side it out against elves and patriot delver/blade which has 8 1 mana removal, daze and pressure.

So if you get your reps in with it, early library stacking and correct timing really adds another dimension to the deck.


Repeal takes care of everything. If you are in an Aggro-Infested meta then you shouldn't be playing sweepers since they are too fast, but rather cards like Elephant Grass or use the red splash.


The only time I would include sweepers back into the list would be if one was printed that hit combo in some form.

I played O Stone when omni was the only pony in town. Tabernacle when only Storm. And bonfire when I mostly feared Elves.

Since the combo meta is too varied at the moment, a sweeper does not help.

If Merfolk becomes dominant then I will add sweepers again, as they were the only permanent based deck that required them.

Together I think these make the perfect assessment of sweeper's position for us right now. I think focusing on repeal, needle and winning are the right things to be spending mana on right now.


If you're ever worried enough about Death and Taxes to go back to the RUG version you might consider running Fire // Ice instead of Bonfire, as it still keeps your blue count up for FoW.

AMEN. This card had me closer to splashing red than any other. This card is my pick for most underplayed in legacy.

The DnT addition is obnoxious, and I agree it will further propel their deck into tier 1. I do feel the island build can absorb this, with the aid of Gut Shot, if it comes to it.


Anyone going to be at Baltimore SCG? My list will be close to what I posted before, postman's and rock lee's.

[Davek]

Still having troubles against one the dumbest deck ever made, jund. Yesterday i tested a bit on cockatrice and it was atrocious. T1 thoughtseize, T2 Hymn, T3 bob + wasteland, T4 goyf + wasteland, T5 goyf + Thoughtseize... Ok, this may have been a nutty hand, but it's not so impossible for jund to do things like this quite often. Ponder can help a bit but it won't save you from early pressure (expecially if they keep wasting away your colored lands). Any suggestion?

[Ralf]

Still having troubles against one the dumbest deck ever made, jund. Yesterday i tested a bit on cockatrice and it was atrocious. T1 thoughtseize, T2 Hymn, T3 bob + wasteland, T4 goyf + wasteland, T5 goyf + Thoughtseize... Ok, this may have been a nutty hand, but it's not so impossible for jund to do things like this quite often. Ponder can help a bit but it won't save you from early pressure (expecially if they keep wasting away your colored lands). Any suggestion?

If Jund/discard is heavy in your meta, I could suggest you to try "divert"x4 instead of Fluster/Swan (1/2 split).
Basically, against Jund you ABSOLUTELY need a top (at least some library manipulation) within the few first turns and hope to jamm'in a huge threat by turn 3 with SnT and pray hard that he does not have Lili in hands...

[Rock Lee]

Still having troubles against one the dumbest deck ever made, jund. Yesterday i tested a bit on cockatrice and it was atrocious. T1 thoughtseize, T2 Hymn, T3 bob + wasteland, T4 goyf + wasteland, T5 goyf + Thoughtseize... Ok, this may have been a nutty hand, but it's not so impossible for jund to do things like this quite often. Ponder can help a bit but it won't save you from early pressure (expecially if they keep wasting away your colored lands). Any suggestion?


If Jund/discard is heavy in your meta, I could suggest you to try "divert"x4 instead of Fluster/Swan (1/2 split).
Basically, against Jund you ABSOLUTELY need a top (at least some library manipulation) within the few first turns and hope to jamm'in a huge threat by turn 3 with SnT and pray hard that he does not have Lili in hands...

If you truly fear Jund, then SB x3 Submerge. However I have found that adding consistency and keeping hands that have multiple avenues of of victory or no paths is a better plan.

I have been tinkering with Dismember over the Gut Shot slot, which would allow flex'ing into other matchups like Jund.

[203995014]

How would a RUG list look if you were to use one now?

Also how has Dismember been? Is the -5/-5 killing a creature worth losing 4 life in a deck that falls dead to aggro?

I also really like the idea of replacing Bonfire of the Damned with Fire // Ice! Much less mana intensive, it is blue, and has much more utility!

[Rock Lee]

This is the version I would play RUG with. I have tinkered with it myself, and found it not lacking at all. Very strong, just not as resilient against Loam lock or Knight.

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [LRW] Island (1)
3 [R] Tropical Island
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [R] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [M12] Ponder
3 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
2 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [AP] Fire/Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

[kingtk3]

Generic question: is vesuva required for this deck?

I notice that most lists run 2, 3 at best: do you think it can be dropped for the sake of playing three colors and having a more stable mana base?

I'm on my cell now, I'll post my RUG list later.

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

[Mockingbird]

Generic question: is vesuva required for this deck?

I notice that most lists run 2, 3 at best: do you think it can be dropped for the sake of playing three colors and having a more stable mana base?

Kind of. We're only allowed 4 Cloudposts per deck, and Vesuva lets us get around that rule as well as getting around the idea that our opponents only have up to 4 Wastelands to kill our four Cloudposts (sans the exceptions that I am aware of). Vesuva has tipped out of favor though for the reason you mention: we need colors and more stable mana to rather than more than lands that just explode with colorless mana. However, this tipping point has thus far only meant fewer Vesuvas, not no Vesuvas. Vesuva can copy and has copied more than Cloudpost. The deck is flexible enough that it can copy colored sources as well as Utility lands (namely Bojuka Bog and to effective reset Glacial Chasm), so I don't think that cutting it altogether is justified... yet.

Feel free to test just 8 Post and let us know whether or not you like not just the results but also how it plays.

[Darkenslight]

An interesting card from the Release Notes:

Courser of Kruphix :1::g::g:
Enchantment Creature - Centaur (R)
Play with the top card of your library revealed.
You may play the top card of your library if it's a land card.
Whenever a land ETB under your control, gain 1 life.
2/4

This is the most likely deck, aside from Lands, to play this card in Legacy. What do you guys think?

[Davek]

I'm debated. At first sight it looks great compared to oracle, a better body, better ability and a lesser cc. A more specific one, though, thet could make it quite hard to cast, expecially on turn 3 if not supported by a candelabra. Plus, usually oracle is employed in facing abrupt_decay.decks because it can't be targeted to their catch-all removal, while this thing falls dead. I think it will deserve some test though.

[Monkey_Island]

Unlike Oracle of Mul Daya, it doesn't allow you to play an additional land... That + the double G + Abrupt Decay makes it worthless in my opinion.

[kingtk3]

The only Pro I see is that it doesn't die to lightning bolt, but the downsides are more relevant I think

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

[That nice guy]

Generic question: is vesuva required for this deck?

I notice that most lists run 2, 3 at best: do you think it can be dropped for the sake of playing three colors and having a more stable mana base?

I'm on my cell now, I'll post my RUG list later.

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.


2 Vesuva is Key. It also let you do play like Croprotate in response to stuff like waste to copy a key land like glacial / Bog. Also, Under bloodmoon you can copy a basic!



An interesting card from the Release Notes:

Courser of Kruphix :1::g::g:
Enchantment Creature - Centaur (R)
Play with the top card of your library revealed.
You may play the top card of your library if it's a land card.
Whenever a land ETB under your control, gain 1 life.
2/4

This is the most likely deck, aside from Lands, to play this card in Legacy. What do you guys think?

One of the benifits of the deck is artificial card advantage since you don't care about swords, which this guy will eat. It's in decay range, and it DOESN'T say "extra land per turn", and it dies to enchantment removal. This guy sucks.

[Davek]

You're right guys, i misread it. So no, oracle is superior.

[kingtk3]

This is the RUG version I'm testing right now:

MAIN
Search and Manipulation 14
3 sensei's divining top
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
1 expedition map
3 crop rotation

Removals 10
4 repeal
3 fire // ice
3 bonfire of the damned

Ramp 8
1 candelabra of tawnos
3 show and tell
4 primeval titan

Monsters 3
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
1 ulamog, the infinite gyre
1 kozilek, butcher of truth

Lands 25
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
1 vesuva
3 tropical island
3 volcanic island
2 island
1 forest
1 karakas
1 eye of ugin
4 misty rainforest
1 scalding tarn

SIDE
4 force of will
3 swan song
2 flusterstorm
2 venser, shaper savant
1 glacial chasm
2 pithing needle
1 bojuka bog


The list is very similar to the one posted above by Rock Lee, and the spells are basically the same I played in my last tournament with the following changes:

-1 sensei's divining top, +1 expedition map because tops in multiple aren't good, especially if you don't have a shuffle effect, and sometimes you need a specific land
-1 show and tell, +1 candelabra: they are both ramp spells in this deck each with its merits and downsides (I won't dissert over them, I'm sure you all know, but I can explain further if needed), but I found S&T to sit in my hand without a creature to cheat a little bit too much. Moreover it must be taken in account that it benefits the opponent too and that is unplayable against some decks (Reanimator, Sneak&Show). Candelabra, while not being so powerful, couples better with eldrazis, enables some nice tricks with cib tapped lands, provides you with double G even with a single forest in play (very relevant in a 3 color build) and lets you cast bonfire for crazy damage. And, most importantly, I've just acquired my first candelabra for a set of wasteland (I had one spare) and some cash, so I HAVE to try it ^_^
-3 lightning bolt, +3 fire/ice: I want to try those for the points raised in the posts above; I'm doubtful of its utility on the draw though. Being a blue card certanly holds its merits, but I think ot would be sided out in the match when you bring in force of will.



I worked a bit on the mana base for making it more resilient: -1 tropical island (I played 4 initially), +1 forest and -1 vesuva, +1 island.

What I like: having access to 3 basic lands helps against loam decks (I'm contemplating to switch an island for a mountain, but I don't want to have too few blue sources).
What I don't like: loosing the second vesuva and bojuka bog main deck :(

Some words on the red splash: I have sleeved up the UG version and played a few games, surely too few to gain a deep knowledge of that version, but I always felt in danger with only 4 repeals as "removals". Red gives me the removals I need to slow the game enough to reach inevitability, in addition to bonfire that becomes itself a win condition in late game. Maybe this version fits more my stile, but I feel more like trying to improve the manabase (which is its greatest flaw) than switching to the UG version.

I'll try this at a tournament asap, which will not occur too early due to work.

Any criticism is welcomed, especially on the side: I would like to have more grave hate, for example.

[That nice guy]

Just won the Newington, CT SCG Super IQ 1k (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27178-Newington-CT-01-19-2014-SCG-SUPER-IQ-Legacy)with this list:

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [US] Show and Tell
3 [M12] Ponder
2 [10E] Pithing Needle
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [RLM] Glacial Chasm
SB: 1 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 1 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge

I will supply a brief report soon, but figured I would throw out a list for chewing sake.
Matchups were BUG delver, UWR delver, Bant, ID, ID, Top 8 Storm, Top 4 Elves, Finals URW delver (same player from swiss)

@ Rock Lee or whoever is actually good at this.
1. How necessary are the maps? I run this list minus 2 Map, + 1 Ponder +1Glasial Chasm. What do you think? I find that ponder will find what you need.
2. Also, what would you think about going from 1 to dropping 2 top for two Force of Will?
2.5 And if I do #2 adding a drop of 2 Honey to the side?

[Rock Lee]

@ Rock Lee or whoever is actually good at this.
1. How necessary are the maps? I run this list minus 2 Map, + 1 Ponder +1Glasial Chasm. What do you think? I find that ponder will find what you need.
2. Also, what would you think about going from 1 to dropping 2 top for two Force of Will?
2.5 And if I do #2 adding a drop of 2 Honey to the side?

I ran three events sans-maps, and greatly regretted it. At the largest of the events, my two losses in the swiss were related to poor land availability. One to Affinity where I was digging for chasm and had to crop for it, when map-playing it and then crop'ing it away eot could have won me the game. The other game was a complete lack of colored mana against Enchantress, where map would have won me the game multiple ways, either via producing colored mana or by getting me Ugin. I then put map back in the main and won the two next events.

I tried several builds with fow main, and ultimately needle main solved the same purpose and more. The deck deals with permanents already when streamlined with maps/x12 cantrip/filter, Thus you only need help against combo or lock (waste/chalice). Pithing Needle hits the best combo decks and waste lock, with the only difficulty being chalice + waste (Aggro Loam/MUD) or chalice + combo (virtually nonexistant).

Drop of Honey is becoming more and more interesting to me again. Especially if DnT goes bonkers with Brimaz and Spirit printing, with merfolk always needing to be considered, and Drop of Honey killing True-Name, all of these are viable pluses for the card yet again.

[Postman]

I ran three events sans-maps, and greatly regretted it. At the largest of the events, my two losses in the swiss were related to poor land availability. One to Affinity where I was digging for chasm and had to crop for it, when map-playing it and then crop'ing it away eot could have won me the game. The other game was a complete lack of colored mana against Enchantress, where map would have won me the game multiple ways, either via producing colored mana or by getting me Ugin. I then put map back in the main and won the two next events.

I tried several builds with fow main, and ultimately needle main solved the same purpose and more. The deck deals with permanents already when streamlined with maps/x12 cantrip/filter, Thus you only need help against combo or lock (waste/chalice). Pithing Needle hits the best combo decks and waste lock, with the only difficulty being chalice + waste (Aggro Loam/MUD) or chalice + combo (virtually nonexistant).

Drop of Honey is becoming more and more interesting to me again. Especially if DnT goes bonkers with Brimaz and Spirit printing, with merfolk always needing to be considered, and Drop of Honey killing True-Name, all of these are viable pluses for the card yet again.

Wantend to ask a question anyway: Atm I'm brainstorming about my "oracle-slot", having a few ideas:

1: wurmcoil engine
2: thragtusk
3: karn
4: drop of honey (ok, this isn't my idea, but i like it:-) )

Would be great to hear some ideas or even results from testing?

[Rock Lee]

Wantend to ask a question anyway: Atm I'm brainstorming about my "oracle-slot", having a few ideas:

1: wurmcoil engine
2: thragtusk
3: karn
4: drop of honey (ok, this isn't my idea, but i like it:-) )

Would be great to hear some ideas or even results from testing?

All those have been discussed in the past in this thread, but wurmcoil is too expensive, thragtusk was ok, and in a theory-of-fire oriented meta it is good, Karn again is too expensive, although offers far more utility than wurmcoil, but dies to truename 100%, and drop was just discussed.

Keep in mind, I think gut shot is better than all those.

[Postman]

All those have been discussed in the past in this thread, but wurmcoil is too expensive, thragtusk was ok, and in a theory-of-fire oriented meta it is good, Karn again is too expensive, although offers far more utility than wurmcoil, but dies to truename 100%, and drop was just discussed.

Keep in mind, I think gut shot is better than all those.

Thanks for fast reply:smile:

Have read about most of these cards in this thread, but a few days/weeks ago. Always nice to get up-to-date opinions:wink:

Gut shot...hmmm...great against elves, sure. But doesn't handle DRS nor SFM the way i like it. Perhaps a split of gut shot and dismember?

Ordered some divert last night because double hymn lead to a 1:2 loss against shardless bug (and the draw against nicfit last week in mind). Brainstorm had to be cast before in order to hide snt/titan from thoughtseize...

Even considering to test Rock lee's rug list, since Fire/Ice seems to be so awesome @elves, dnt, while also handling my friends DRS, sfm, Delver (even flipped ones). Perhaps i will try it with a basic mountain and two scalding tarn

[Rock Lee]

Please be reminded that I currently do NOT think the RUG list is superior, for many reasons, which I have previously stated. If DnT goes nuts, this might change.

[Zotmaster]

Finally plunked down the cash for Force of Will...I feel dirty. Thanks to the generosity of others, I'll be able to borrow duals so I'm going to pick up Rock's latest RUG build and abandon my awful mono-green creation. Anyway, it's been a while since I've commented here, but I had some ideas I wanted to bounce off everyone; Rock in particular.

Rock, is there any chance you could update the primer? The deck has evolved quite a bit over time and the OP just looks...lacking. The RUG build in particular doesn't run any Glacial Chasm, Elephant Grass or Pithing Needle, and most of the traditional sweepers and even Chalice of the Void have also fallen by the wayside in both the RUG build and your most recent winner. The aforementioned Force of Will is also a thing now, too. The matchups section also doesn't cover a lot of decks, and while some (or perhaps most) have been discussed in various places on this thread, it would be nice to have things organized a little better. You've also mentioned at a few points that if anyone was interested in things like sideboarding tips that people should speak up. Maybe I'm the only one, but I know I would. Practicing, of course, makes a lot of this stuff better, but at least from my end I get to practice once a week at the most, and at the risk of stating the obvious, nobody knows the deck better than you do. I realize all of this is more work on your part, but if I knew more I would be willing to help wherever I could.

Lastly, one of the guys I play with had an interesting suggestion for an addition to the deck that I don't remember ever coming up (then again my short term memory is awful): Zealous Conscripts. The applications of the card are interesting to me, especially considering that it can steal not only creatures, but planeswalkers. I may try to test it when I have the time but I was wondering if anyone else thought it was at least worth considering some number of them in the 75.

[Rock Lee]

Finally plunked down the cash for Force of Will...I feel dirty. Thanks to the generosity of others, I'll be able to borrow duals so I'm going to pick up Rock's latest RUG build and abandon my awful mono-green creation. Anyway, it's been a while since I've commented here, but I had some ideas I wanted to bounce off everyone; Rock in particular.

Rock, is there any chance you could update the primer? The deck has evolved quite a bit over time and the OP just looks...lacking. The RUG build in particular doesn't run any Glacial Chasm, Elephant Grass or Pithing Needle, and most of the traditional sweepers and even Chalice of the Void have also fallen by the wayside in both the RUG build and your most recent winner. The aforementioned Force of Will is also a thing now, too. The matchups section also doesn't cover a lot of decks, and while some (or perhaps most) have been discussed in various places on this thread, it would be nice to have things organized a little better. You've also mentioned at a few points that if anyone was interested in things like sideboarding tips that people should speak up. Maybe I'm the only one, but I know I would. Practicing, of course, makes a lot of this stuff better, but at least from my end I get to practice once a week at the most, and at the risk of stating the obvious, nobody knows the deck better than you do. I realize all of this is more work on your part, but if I knew more I would be willing to help wherever I could.

Lastly, one of the guys I play with had an interesting suggestion for an addition to the deck that I don't remember ever coming up (then again my short term memory is awful): Zealous Conscripts. The applications of the card are interesting to me, especially considering that it can steal not only creatures, but planeswalkers. I may try to test it when I have the time but I was wondering if anyone else thought it was at least worth considering some number of them in the 75.

I will try to get to updating the OP. I am sickeningly busy at the moment, barely having time for biweekly events and my weekly local event. The OP is quite outdated though, and I will give it a sprucing up in the next few weeks.

I considered Zealous Conscripts when I was running RUG and trying to SB vs both Jund and SneakyShow. The card is a hefty mana cost, but does its job magnificently. Stealing lilly to -2 them, or stealing a dude to clobber a lilly, or stealing a Griselbrand/sneak-attack are all huge plays.

Ultimately only merited minor consideration in testing though, due to inhibitive mana costs. I think if you're looking for cost-effective red creatures that have the ability to alpha strike a board, Sulfur Elemental is a stronger choice.

[Mockingbird]

So I've been playing been testing Stroke of Genius as a one of to basically serve as Kozilek, Butcher of Truth/Eye of Ugin #2 without conflicting Legend rules because sometimes (like most ramp decks in my experience) sometimes I just ramp into topdecking, and while I'm not completely sold on it yet, I can report some pros and cons from my testing.

Pros:
+Instant Speed (<-!)
+The base :2::u: is not difficult on the mana base.
+I average 4-6 cards when it resolves, but I have gotten 15 before
+I'm looking for 1 or more of 8 cards when I cast this (4 Titans, 3 Eldrazi, Eye).
+It's a mana cheaper to Tidings with Stroke than Koziliek with Eye out.
+I can feed it to Force of Will

Cons:
-While :2::u: isn't difficult, :X: makes this card dead early game (unless I have to feed it to Force).
-Spirit of the Labyrinth has me worried about testing draw more power (at least preboard).
-I have run into a Misdirection.
-If you're looking for something specific to stay alive, unless it is Force of Will, the mana sink aspect of this card often means you find it but can't cast it.
-If I don't need to find a threat, this card is redundant.

I dunno. I'll let others decide. For the moment, I moved a fourth Show and Tell to the side to make room.



Wantend to ask a question anyway: Atm I'm brainstorming about my "oracle-slot", having a few ideas:

1: wurmcoil engine
2: thragtusk
3: karn
4: drop of honey (ok, this isn't my idea, but i like it:-) )

Would be great to hear some ideas or even results from testing?All those have been discussed in the past in this thread, but wurmcoil is too expensive, thragtusk was ok, and in a theory-of-fire oriented meta it is good, Karn again is too expensive, although offers far more utility than wurmcoil, but dies to truename 100%, and drop was just discussed.

Keep in mind, I think gut shot is better than all those.
I want to mention Karn specifically because I've played him in Cloudpost before and still play him in Modern Tron, and I don't believe Gut Shot > Karn Liberated is a fair assessment. This also ties back to Stroke of Genius.

The problem with Karn Liberated is not that he's too expensive... well, sort of. Karn can solve True-Name Nemesis by restarting the game or even trying because an unchecked Karn is always a lethal Karn. Even if he Legacy Weapons a problem and then acts as Gideon Jura's plus to a True-Name Nemesis (or whatever the hot killing machine is at the moment), that is worth :7: mana (:5: for Legacy Weapon + :2: for Moment's Peace). That would be a great play in Modern... but that's the thing, this isn't Modern.

(I'm not just talking to you Rock Lee now) The problem with Karn is that unlike the aggressive RG Tron dig tactics on 7 mana, Cloudpost decks have to play a more flexible game because Cloudpost enters the battlefield tapped and needs to play around Wasteland, which sucks no matter how good at we are at doing it. To adapt, anything that is not Win Now cards (which is why I'm shaky on Stroke of Genius) risks our victory. And by Win Now, I don't mean "Live Longer" cards, which is what most suggestions that have made the way to this board... mine included... fall under. There are Live Longer cards worth playing and worth mentioning, but sorting the ones to play vs. not play I can say from experience is that it's always easier to check with yourself first. You'd be surprised how often you can answer your own question.

As for my personal assessment of Karn Liberated, if Karn can stick long enough before it gets thrown out of the 75, then please let us know. But my word of warning from when I played it is don't expect it to work like it does in Modern (unless they ban Wasteland, then run 4).

P.S. @Postman
Wurmcoil Engine loses to Swords to Plowshares... hard.
Thragtusk works, but it doesn't assist in reaching Eldrazi like Primeval Titan, Oracle of Mul Daya, or even Trinket Mage. But there is a charm to having a win con that doesn't just point to Emrakul.
Karn Liberated- The tl;dr of what I just said about--Good luck sticking it long enough for significant impact because this ain't Modern son. Also, P.S. I stopped playing it before True-Name came out, but from what I've gathered, Karn can annoy it more than solve it.
Drop of Honey - The more creatures they play, the better this card is. But that also means the more trouble you're in

[kingtk3]

@Mockingbird: Stroke of Genius seems nice in this deck. Sometimes this decks feels, at least to me, threat light and having a couple of big spells (with the X in the mana cost)is a good way to use the mana that this deck can produce. The important thing is the X in the casting cost because it gives you flexibility. it's true that you want your stroke to be as big as possible, but even drawing 2 or 3 cards in a pinch is a big help: for example it "resets" your top when you don't have a shuffle effect.

For these reasons I like bonfire: in early game it can kill opponent's weenies (even if cast from hand it's not difficoult to cast it for one or two), in mid game it clears bigger threats and speeds the clock of titan if you are racing, and in late game is a win condition: 21 mana equals in killing the opponent.

I think that stroke of genius is more or less the same: in early game it can be pitched to fow, in mid game it draws you some cards which can help you to reset top, in late game it draws you into a winning condition.

[203995014]

How do 12-post players play around the heavy discard and land destruction in decks such as Jund, Pox, and Deadguy Ale? I just can't seem to win a single game vs. them and overall just seems like a horrible matchup.

[That nice guy]

How do 12-post players play around the heavy discard and land destruction in decks such as Jund, Pox, and Deadguy Ale? I just can't seem to win a single game vs. them and overall just seems like a horrible matchup.

Play off the top like a champ. / Hope they don't have God Hand. / Use B-storm smart!



I tried several builds with fow main, and ultimately needle main solved the same purpose and more. The deck deals with permanents already when streamlined with maps/x12 cantrip/filter, Thus you only need help against combo or lock (waste/chalice). Pithing Needle hits the best combo decks and waste lock, with the only difficulty being chalice + waste (Aggro Loam/MUD) or chalice + combo (virtually nonexistant).


I just like the idea of having the force back-up your back-up-plan of digging and then playing show and tell. Against certain decks I use this plan as a huge crutch, admittantley (D&T, Tempo, ect.).


Wantend to ask a question anyway: Atm I'm brainstorming about my "oracle-slot", having a few ideas:

1: wurmcoil engine
2: thragtusk
3: karn
4: drop of honey (ok, this isn't my idea, but i like it:-) )

Would be great to hear some ideas or even results from testing?

I tested the Sh*t out of Drop of Honey. In order for it to work/buy you the tempo you need, it must be cast on turn 2-3 after a deathrite usually. This forces them into an awkward position. That said, I threw one into my deck just to see how I felt about it, and every time I saw it past turns 2-3 I hated it, or was already getting hurt too bad to win, or was already winning. Needle is just better, more needles, all day long, so so good, doesn't matter when you get it.

[TimHarding]

How do 12-post players play around the heavy discard and land destruction in decks such as Jund, Pox, and Deadguy Ale? I just can't seem to win a single game vs. them and overall just seems like a horrible matchup.

Islands, Sensei's Top and very tight brainstorming are the best way. Against discard, I wont keep a hand that doesn't have access to 2/3 of these things. Needle is also VERY strong against them. I will needle DRS first, then liliana, then wasteland depending on the situation. An open 7 with SnT+Titan is actually pretty poor. Ponders, Sensei's Top and Brainstorm let you play off of the top of your deck reliably and keep hitting land drops. I don't think the RUG version has much of a chance against these black decks. Against hymn decks I'll put in counters over more dead cards and it has worked very well for me. And of course, crop rotation respond to wasteland is great! Oracle is also HUGE, if you run one. Against pox, I will show and tell Oracle, or even a land, often.

Basically, have a basic, get a top going, get another basic and do what you need to do to get the 3 mana win. The worst line is having Snt Titan/whatever assembled in hand and walking straight into a hymn.

[Monkey_Island]

Just made top 4 to GPT with a classical UG list:


4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm

1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, The Infinite Gyre
1 Kozilek, Butcher Of Truth
4 Primeval Titan

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Show And Tell
4 Crop Rotation
4 Repeal
2 Pithing Needle
2 Expedition Map
2 Candelabra Of Tawnos

4 Force Of Will
4 Swan Song
3 Flusterstorm
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Bojuka Bog


I went 3-0 then split in the swiss round, just lose game 2 against elves where he did combo of in the 2nd turn for the 2nd time! Worst part is I could have win if I were more careful.
My matchups were:
1- Some kind of 4C midrange deck with StP, Bolt, Smallpoxn Phyrexian Obliterator and Deathrite Shaman. In game 2 he Hymn-ed me 3 times but my opener was double Top, Crop + 4 lands and it was enough.
2- Elves. I go first, he goes off on his second turn with Glimpse, I crop into Glacial Chasm at 19 PV and he did not manage to have enough sorceries and instants in his GY in order to shoot me with Deathrite. Game 2 goes as descrived above. Game 3, I go for Show And Tell -> Emrakul with double counter backup. He attempted to go off on his 3rd turn but Swan Song stopped him and I had FoW + Brainstorm in hand just in case ;).
3- UW Miracles -> Win.
4- Esper Deathblade-> Draw into top 4. We did play for fun and I won 2-1. In game 3 he managed to put an Humility on the board which was quite frightening because he had Batterskull but I managed to cast Ulamog.

Semis against the Elves deck. I scoop to him because I won't go to Paris and he won the event (earning him 2 byes) against the Esper deck. So I won against the 2 finalists!

The maindeck felt very powerful. The ponders add a lot of resiliency.

Good luck to everybody taking this deck to the GP!

[That nice guy]

Needle is also VERY strong against them. I will needle DRS first, then liliana, then wasteland depending on the situation.

I've never considered not naming Waste first. Could you please explain?

[DragoFireheart]

Can this deck be done without Candelabra Of Tawnos?

[kingtk3]

Can this deck be done without Candelabra Of Tawnos?

The RUG version can be played without, although I'm testing a single candelabra (may add a second) because it can one shot opponent with bonfire and helps getting double green for titan.

The problem of three color versions is that it may be difficult to have the needed colored mana.

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

[That nice guy]

Can this deck be done without Candelabra Of Tawnos?

LOL

Please read the thread for the 20 other times this has been asked.

If you're a troll, hats off.

[sauce]

Can this deck be done without Candelabra Of Tawnos?

Yes. check mtgpulse.com for decklists. Most recent ones do not have Candles.

EDIT: Also, I went 23-2-1 in the last 6 weeks w/ this deck w/ 0 candles.

[TimHarding]

LOL

Please read the thread for the 20 other times this has been asked.

If you're a troll, hats off.

Good response, lol. But seriously, I guess it technically it isn't required, but it is certainly optimal. Again, leaving out candle is absolutely less optimal. Besides the obvious benefits, without it you're effectively putting 100% of the work load on SnT/Titan. The colorless explosive hands are a line that a refuse to skimp on - why cut off an entire win path?

[203995014]

Can this deck be done without Candelabra Of Tawnos?

TECHNICALLY it can, but it is not a good idea. You need to be able to cast Primeval Titan off of one tropical island and this allows you to play through mana denial a little better.

RUG list on the other hand if you're in a meta infested with fair decks then you don't have to run Candelabra (you probably can't anyway!)

[That nice guy]

@ Tim:
Hey! Answer my question!

@ not running candle:
Rock Lee used to run some terrible (and I mean terrible!) builds and he did ok, which just goes to show the sheer power of the build. Just be good at magic.

[TimHarding]

I've never considered not naming Waste first. Could you please explain?

In general, when you lead with basics wasteland should not bother you too much. I even like to bait them into crop response. Wastes become an issue if they're together with pressure. Jund is so strong in that with DRS, they can afford to waste+disrupt, waste+threat, disrupt+threat on turns 2-3. If you delay this plan by holding off DRS by needle or repeal, you've stopped broken double plays for the next two turns or more. Now you won't be hymned AND wasted till at least turn 3, liliana/ waste till turn 4, etc.. You can see how much more breathing room you now have. Most scary plays by Jund are with 3 mana on turn 2, 4 mana turn 3. The other line that is left is Thoughtsieze then hymn, which you should be ready to top and brainstorm around.

[That nice guy]

In general, when you lead with basics wasteland should not bother you too much. I even like to bait them into crop response. Wastes become an issue if they're together with pressure. Jund is so strong in that with DRS, they can afford to waste+disrupt, waste+threat, disrupt+threat on turns 2-3. If you delay this plan by holding off DRS by needle or repeal, you've stopped broken double plays for the next two turns or more. Now you won't be hymned AND wasted till at least turn 3, liliana/ waste till turn 4, etc.. You can see how much more breathing room you now have. Most scary plays by Jund are with 3 mana on turn 2, 4 mana turn 3. The other line that is left is Thoughtsieze then hymn, which you should be ready to top and brainstorm around.

Thank you!

Discard is annoying but waste is really what the deck loses to. So I guess I just think that you're delaying the inevitable vs. Jund by not naming waste first. Also, I only run two needle, so maybe that's why I'm thinking, "well what if I only get one?". With 2 needle I just let ponder find it.

[Rock Lee]

Yes. check mtgpulse.com for decklists. Most recent ones do not have Candles.

EDIT: Also, I went 23-2-1 in the last 6 weeks w/ this deck w/ 0 candles.

Except all the most 10 recent 12post lists on mtgpulse include candelabras...

Trolling?

[TimHarding]

Thank you!

Discard is annoying but waste is really what the deck loses to. So I guess I just think that you're delaying the inevitable vs. Jund by not naming waste first. Also, I only run two needle, so maybe that's why I'm thinking, "well what if I only get one?". With 2 needle I just let ponder find it.

I see your point. I personally fear discard much more than wasteland. Islands really are the key. It's rare for me to play a Cloudpost which I will rely on for basic spells. I wouldn't plan on seeing two needles, but the order I listed is the priority list, most often. I also run two, currently. Overall I still struggle with Jund, and I hope others will chime in on their ideas.

[Davek]

Yes. check mtgpulse.com

I didn't even know that site exsisted... wow, i'm cited with 2 builds in the first 12-post page! :-)

[Rock Lee]

I didn't even know that site exsisted... wow, i'm cited with 2 builds in the first 12-post page! :-)

It is basically the new/current morphling.de with more searchability.

Also with Spirit/Brimalz printing and the foreseen DnT explosion to be had, I am re investigating the Rug Build.

[TimHarding]

It is basically the new/current morphling.de with more searchability.

Also with Spirit/Brimalz printing and the foreseen DnT explosion to be had, I am re investigating the Rug Build.

Why red over black? Deluge, Golgari Charm, Thoughtsieze, Dread of Night seem more reliable against DnT/Elves in a color that has better combo hate. Plus there's already a black land in the deck.

[Rock Lee]

Why red over black? Deluge, Golgari Charm, Thoughtsieze, Dread of Night seem more reliable against DnT/Elves in a color that has better combo hate. Plus there's already a black land in the deck.

The only two red cards I included are Bonfire and Fire//Ice. Bonfire has obvious various utility, and fire/ice can still pitch to force and cycle. Black cards rarely give advantage on their own sadly. Although if a few were unearthed I would certainly consider them. Abrupt decay is the best convincing argument.

[sauce]

Except all the most 10 recent 12post lists on mtgpulse include candelabras...

Trolling?


2nd on the list
http://mtgpulse.com/event/15121#213347

[Rock Lee]

2nd on the list
http://mtgpulse.com/event/15121#213347

Eh. Sure, but 20-30 man events, and his previous list, that he performed better with, ran candelabra. Trying to present candel-less builds as viable standards when they are by far the minority is a bit deceiving to say the least.

[Namaenashi]

Hey guys,
Long time reader, first time poster.
First, thanks to all of you, especially to Rock Lee, for all the good job you've done with this deck.

Last week, a UGw post ramp list won a 23 player event in France. I know that's a really small event!
That was the list played:

LAnd (24)
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
3 Flooded strand
1 Misty rainforest
4 Tropical island
1 Tundra
3 Island
1 Karakas
1 Eye of ugin
Monsters 7
1 Emy
1 Kozy
1 Ula
4 primeval titan
Other Spell (29)
4 Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop rotation
4 Repeal
4 Force of Will
4 Show and Tell
3 couterbalance
1 Ponder
1 Candelabra
Side
4 Flusterstorm
2 Swan song
1 Venser
3 Terminus
1 Devastation tide
1 Tabernacle
1 Bojuka bog
1 Glacial chasm
1 Plaine

I'm wondering what you guys think of the inclusion of counterbalance in the deck? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that the card was already discussed in the topic.
I know it costs UU, which is not negligible.
In his report, the player wrote that he sided them out almost everytime, but he only played once against combo (Sneak show).
If you think that this could be an idea worth working on, what about replacing the maps by sylvan scrying, in order for the deck to have 2CMC spells?

Edit: I'm not discussing about the pros of splashing white, just asking about the pros and cons of playing counterbalance in the UG "classic" list.

Thank you for your comments and sorry if I made many grammar errors!:smile:

[Darkenslight]

Hrm...with the rise of TNN decks, is it viable in a Bant TE build to run Path to Exile as your spot-removal, and Terminus for your mass removal needs?

[kingtk3]

Hrm...with the rise of TNN decks, is it viable in a Bant TE build to run Path to Exile as your spot-removal, and Terminus for your mass removal needs?

Why path to exile over swords to plowshares?

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

[203995014]

Hey guys,
Long time reader, first time poster.
First, thanks to all of you, especially to Rock Lee, for all the good job you've done with this deck.

Last week, a UGw post ramp list won a 23 player event in France. I know that's a really small event!
That was the list played:

LAnd (24)
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
3 Flooded strand
1 Misty rainforest
4 Tropical island
1 Tundra
3 Island
1 Karakas
1 Eye of ugin
Monsters 7
1 Emy
1 Kozy
1 Ula
4 primeval titan
Other Spell (29)
4 Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop rotation
4 Repeal
4 Force of Will
4 Show and Tell
3 couterbalance
1 Ponder
1 Candelabra
Side
4 Flusterstorm
2 Swan song
1 Venser
3 Terminus
1 Devastation tide
1 Tabernacle
1 Bojuka bog
1 Glacial chasm
1 Plaine

I'm wondering what you guys think of the inclusion of counterbalance in the deck? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that the card was already discussed in the topic.
I know it costs UU, which is not negligible.
In his report, the player wrote that he sided them out almost everytime, but he only played once against combo (Sneak show).
If you think that this could be an idea worth working on, what about replacing the maps by sylvan scrying, in order for the deck to have 2CMC spells?

Edit: I'm not discussing about the pros of splashing white, just asking about the pros and cons of playing counterbalance in the UG "classic" list.

Thank you for your comments and sorry if I made many grammar errors!:smile:

If you want to use counterbalance, then you should play miracles. Otherwise, in the same matches you would keep counterbalance that might as well be an Ethersworn Canonist. Testing has found however that most of the time it was just better to mainboard Force of Will.

The problem with Sylvan Scrying is that it costs green mana. Colored mana is scarce. Expedition Map is just better.

[Darkenslight]

Why path to exile over swords to plowshares?

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

Because, of most of the top-tier midrange decks, there are only about 2 that play more than one basic land - the Stoneblade decks can't afford to play basics. Hence, you play PtE, which reads 'exile target creature not named True-Name Nemesis.'

[TimHarding]

Because, of most of the top-tier midrange decks, there are only about 2 that play more than one basic land - the Stoneblade decks can't afford to play basics. Hence, you play PtE, which reads 'exile target creature not named True-Name Nemesis.'

Between this, candle question, and the mtgpulse I can't tell if all these dudes are trolling this thread..I can't handle it. Katy Perry (new song is excellent, btw) is more relevant than path in an eldrazi deck.

[kingtk3]

Between this, candle question, and the mtgpulse I can't tell if all these dudes are trolling this thread..I can't handle it. Katy Perry (new song is excellent, btw) is more relevant than path in an eldrazi deck.

+1

This deck really doesn't care if opponent is gaining life because with two attacks of emmy he will be dead with 0 permanents. Stp is strictly better here.

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

[Darkenslight]

Between this, candle question, and the mtgpulse I can't tell if all these dudes are trolling this thread..I can't handle it. Katy Perry (new song is excellent, btw) is more relevant than path in an eldrazi deck.

My argument is that, in a meta with few basic lands, Path is better than StP in most cases because of the fact that, in those matchups, you aren't giving your opponent a buffer against PrimeTime beats. And that would only be in a GUw list (which, i might add, is not the main list and is an offshoot).

For the main list, it would be laughable.

[203995014]

My argument is that, in a meta with few basic lands, Path is better than StP in most cases because of the fact that, in those matchups, you aren't giving your opponent a buffer against PrimeTime beats. And that would only be in a GUw list (which, i might add, is not the main list and is an offshoot).

For the main list, it would be laughable.

I don't think you fully understand this deck. Primeval Titan isn't a win condition and rarely ever will be. You're playing Primeval Titan for the lands you get from it. I barely even remember that it deals 6 damage anymore. Path to Exile gives your opponent an advantage that is much worse than the life gain.

[HammafistRoob]

Primeval Titan isn't a win condition? LOL

[Mockingbird]

Primeval Titan isn't a win condition? LOL

Primeval Titan can win, but he is not for that. Primeval Titan fetches lands, those lands generate enough mana to find and/or cast Eldrazi. He's a condition that makes winning easier, but to be more accurate: Primeval Titan is not a finisher.

[kingtk3]

I agree: while Prime can attack for lethal, most of the time it just reads

"4GG (or 2U): search your library for 2 land cards and put them into the battlefield tapped. Gain 6 life. Your opponent discard a card from his hand and taps a Plain he controls".

Which is often all you need to win the game in the following turns.

[That nice guy]

IDK black seems great with Abrupt decay main, and Side Duress and deluge/ dread of night for maverick/D&T

Anyway,

I was on the fence about Vensor until a buddy of mine used it in a way I thought was awesome. He cast Vens in response to Infernal Tutor, on a land, and therefore shut of the tutor. I cheered.

Anyway, I was wondering if others can share amazing lines with him and also was wondering what other matches he's good in. I liked him in the Abrupt decay meta, and I used him to win against a bloodmoon twice. Anything else you guys can think of. I sided him in instead of bog in a lot of matches as my "meh, this is better than bog card"

Prempt: I've never had him and Karakas win me a game. I thought it would have come up by now, but then again, I only side one and only ever sided two.

On another note, I've only ever used the repeal-Top trick 3 times, thought that vintage awesomeness would have come up more too.


So yea, Vensor, anyone have anything awesome to share to explain?

[HammafistRoob]

Primeval Titan can win, but he is not for that. Primeval Titan fetches lands, those lands generate enough mana to find and/or cast Eldrazi. He's a condition that makes winning easier, but to be more accurate: Primeval Titan is not a finisher.

I can agree with him not being a finisher, but he definitely wins games, hence win condition. Obviously he hardly ever deals lethal damage but he gets you to your fundamental turn almost instantly. Also, there's no need to explain to me how the deck works.

[Rock Lee]

After loads of testing with Spirit of the Labrynth in various decks, and two fisted testing against the deck, I concluded that this deck is STILL the best deck, but requires some revamping.

This is the list I'm testing.

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [ON] Chain of Vapor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RLM] Glacial Chasm
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal

Ponder had to get dropped in lieu of less dead-to-spirit cards. Higher tutors to compensate, more lands since less ponders, and more removal that still can generate mana and draws with candelabra and top.

[That nice guy]

@ Rock Lee
How has Shoal been? I find your lack of 2/3-drops disturbing.

Why have you given up on Vensor?

And has chain of vapor really been good enough in testing?

[203995014]

@ Rock Lee
How has Shoal been? I find your lack of 2/3-drops disturbing.

Why have you given up on Vensor?

And has chain of vapor really been good enough in testing?

I haven't used it but Disrupting Shoal is hardcast easier than Force of Will.

Venser might as well just be another counter.

[TimHarding]

Going to 3 Needle has been enough for me, with the force of wills. From DnT players I talk to, few say they're going to be running the spirit. A 1-of in the SB type of significance.

I'm also curious about the shoal Rock Lee, I heard you talking about it thurs. My bet is that it's basically mental misstep- yeah?

[Rock Lee]

Going to 3 Needle has been enough for me, with the force of wills. From DnT players I talk to, few say they're going to be running the spirit. A 1-of in the SB type of significance.

I'm also curious about the shoal Rock Lee, I heard you talking about it thurs. My bet is that it's basically mental misstep- yeah?

Essentially yes, Mental Misstep. My previous logic of Gut Shot being used for DnT, Elves, and potentially delver gets upturned with chain of vapor, which comes in against two of those, and then just straight counters can come in against elves, most of which are free to allow board advancement.

[Mystic Snake]

After loads of testing with Spirit of the Labrynth in various decks, and two fisted testing against the deck, I concluded that this deck is STILL the best deck, but requires some revamping.

This is the list I'm testing.

[card


Hey,

do you imply that the red is not necessary to fight the environment with D&T quite reprented?

[Rock Lee]

Hey,

do you imply that the red is not necessary to fight the environment with D&T quite reprented?

Indeed, infact red proved to be rather poor. They are equipped to beat red at the moment, what with UWR delver everywhere and Punishing Jund. Bonfire is a chore to cast, and has to blow them out, when it cannot always. Chain allows you to draw/accelerate and THEN bounce something, all for the cost of 1, which is incredible.


@ Rock Lee
How has Shoal been? I find your lack of 2/3-drops disturbing.

Why have you given up on Vensor?

And has chain of vapor really been good enough in testing?

That 2 slot is where the majority of my testing has been funneled. Disrupting Shoal is ok, I have still been testing Gut Shot intermittantly, although less so now, but oddly my favored current testing card in that slot is Commandeer.

[Razorwynd]

My bet is that it's basically mental misstep- yeah? How is it mental misstep?! Doesn't it still cost 2 cards?

[TimHarding]

How is it mental misstep?! Doesn't it still cost 2 cards?

More looking at the turn 0 interaction, most commonly hitting a 1 drop in the build. But that was obviously too good for legacy on its own, so it costs two cards for us

Chain of Vapor is pretty decent, but narrowly awesome. Early stall against elves - but bad late. Strong against DnT - if they don't have vial going. I'm interested in the lines ppl have found.

If you want a funny, sure fire way to hose DnT (and DnT alone, sadly) run Eladamri's Vineyard. I tested it, and wowee. I was close to playing it when RUG was king. So I guess that's my safety valve for now for that deck, but right now I only seem to lose to double revoker, the rest isn't SO bad.

[Monkey_Island]

Why running Chain of Vapor against Snap? It also allows you to accelerate. Are the 2 untapped lands required too late against elves? Personaly in this matchup I don't like bounce spells anyway, I prefer the Glacial Chasm + counterspells plan. What about you guys?

[Maagler]

What about carpet of flowers? Against rug mostly.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I547 using Tapatalk

[TimHarding]

What about carpet of flowers? Against rug mostly.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I547 using Tapatalk

Against rug yes Carpet is better. But right now that MU is so cake with the UG build, I hope to play it every round. Every MD card against them is gravy.

[TimHarding]

Why running Chain of Vapor against Snap? It also allows you to accelerate. Are the 2 untapped lands required too late against elves? Personaly in this matchup I don't like bounce spells anyway, I prefer the Glacial Chasm + counterspells plan. What about you guys?

I agree with you, but I still lose to elves often. I'd like to hear player'a board plans for this.

My side has been:

4 Force of Will
4 Swan Song
4 Flusterstorm
2 Cursed Totem/2 Gut Shot/1 Venser 1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Glacial Chasm

And I put in all 15, countering every non creature spell. Needling DRS or bounce creatures. And getting chasm.

[That nice guy]

I agree with you, but I still lose to elves often. I'd like to hear player'a board plans for this.

My side has been:

4 Force of Will
4 Swan Song
4 Flusterstorm
2 Cursed Totem/2 Gut Shot/1 Venser 1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Glacial Chasm

And I put in all 15, countering every non creature spell. Needling DRS or bounce creatures. And getting chasm.

Maybe, knowing that Elves is huge in the format right now, you should just main-deck chasm. Works for me, and I usually win 2 out of three against them.

[Rock Lee]

I agree with you, but I still lose to elves often. I'd like to hear player'a board plans for this.

My side has been:

4 Force of Will
4 Swan Song
4 Flusterstorm
2 Cursed Totem/2 Gut Shot/1 Venser 1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Glacial Chasm

And I put in all 15, countering every non creature spell. Needling DRS or bounce creatures. And getting chasm.

This is why I have been testing commandeer. to steal a NO or GSZ 6+ for a titan. Would gladly pay 3 cards for a titan on their turn into chasm.

[That nice guy]

This is why I have been testing commandeer. to steal a NO or GSZ 6+ for a titan. Would gladly pay 3 cards for a titan on their turn into chasm.

Too bad Crucible of Worlds isn't in the meta more, you could gift yourself access to lands while stopping waste recursion.

Anything else you'd think to take? Plainswalkers? Helm of Obedience? Entreat the angels?

[Rock Lee]

Too bad Crucible of Worlds isn't in the meta more, you could gift yourself access to lands while stopping waste recursion.

Anything else you'd think to take? Plainswalkers? Helm of Obedience? Entreat the angels?

Well technically you can steal a loam... But I haven't found issue with waste recursion decks with 6 fetches, 2 islands, and the Chain of vapors as added don't-lose-to-Dark Depths protection. Also Chain of vapor provides a bad-crop rotate response if you have a top in play, draw a card, copy-sacrifice. And most wateland decks have nonland permanents.

[Monkey_Island]

I agree with you, but I still lose to elves often. I'd like to hear player'a board plans for this.

My side has been:

4 Force of Will
4 Swan Song
4 Flusterstorm
2 Cursed Totem/2 Gut Shot/1 Venser 1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Glacial Chasm

And I put in all 15, countering every non creature spell. Needling DRS or bounce creatures. And getting chasm.

I do quite the same except I am already maindecking Chasm. I go: -4 Repeal, -2 Expedition Map, -2 Candelabra, -3 Ponder or (-1 Ponder, -2 Pithing Needle) if I see/suspect a Viridian Shaman, +4 FOW, +4 Swan Song, +3 Flusterstorm. If I have Crop in hand and they go the Natural Order (or GSZ for lethal) route, I let it resolves and crop for Chasm in response to the attack. Generally, my life is quite high at this moment. Also I have won several times on the back of a Show And Telled Eldrazi with counter backup (without counter I will never go for it because they can just Natural Order for lethal even with an Eldrazi on your board). The Glimpse route is more painful because they will find Viridian and/or Deathrite to annihilate your Needle and/or Chasm. Sometimes it is even too late to win via S&T -> Titan because the loss off Chasm is too important. Maybe in that case, saving Snap, Chain Of Vapor or Repeal for your own Titan can give the amount of mana and PVs to reverse the situation...

[203995014]

Is there ever a time where it is correct to Show and Tell an eldrazi vs. a deck that isn't pox or loam? I have had times when I was playing and somewhere along the way I happened to have Show and Tell and some eldrazi in my hand.

[That nice guy]

Is there ever a time where it is correct to Show and Tell an eldrazi vs. a deck that isn't pox or loam? I have had times when I was playing and somewhere along the way I happened to have Show and Tell and some eldrazi in my hand.

Just think about what colors you opponent is playing, and therefore, what removal. Against Merfolk and RUG decks send in the Eldrazi. But be weary of any deck that can use Lily, Jace, Karakas, ect to ruin your day.

[Rock Lee]

Just think about what colors you opponent is playing, and therefore, what removal. Against Merfolk and RUG decks send in the Eldrazi. But be weary of any deck that can use Lily, Jace, Karakas, ect to ruin your day.

Or more appropriately, have their removal needled if possible. I have won games this way, but in NO way is it every my plan A, B, C, or D. It is significantly further down the alphabet. more P/O/N

[apple713]

Yes. check mtgpulse.com for decklists. Most recent ones do not have Candles.

EDIT: Also, I went 23-2-1 in the last 6 weeks w/ this deck w/ 0 candles.

have you stopped playing miracles?

[Rock Lee]

Or more appropriately, have their removal needled if possible. I have won games this way, but in NO way is it every my plan A, B, C, or D. It is significantly further down the alphabet. more P/O/N

I did show & tell a Glen Elendra Archmage today however. Assuming the Show would get countered. Could've lost that game. But ner.

[Zotmaster]

Is there ever a time where it is correct to Show and Tell an eldrazi vs. a deck that isn't pox or loam? I have had times when I was playing and somewhere along the way I happened to have Show and Tell and some eldrazi in my hand.

I just did against Death & Taxes yesterday and it won me the game.

Speaking of which, first time playing the RUG list and played some weird decks. 2-0 versus BUG something or other (had Lilly, Jace and Loam, but I'm really not sure what his end game was), 0-2 versus High Tide, 0-2 versus Oops all Spells (I outsmarted myself and punted the second game), 2-1 versus Death & Taxes, 1-2 versus Tin Fins.

The situation I am referring to, the D&T player had a Mother of Runes, a Phyrexian Revoker on Sensei's Divining Top, an Aether Vial, and an Aven Mindcensor. He only had a single card in hand, so I went for Show and Tell. Because of the Mindcensor, I decided to Show in Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre instead of Primeval Titan. Whatever he had in his hand, it couldn't deal with Ulamog, and I won a couple turns later.

[TimHarding]

I did show & tell a Glen Elendra Archmage today however. Assuming the Show would get countered. Could've lost that game. But ner.

Yeah ill rifle off a SnT anytime against anything blue. Unless they have high pressure on you the penalty is low if you put in something crap. I've been showing in cloudposts from time to time when I'm on the ramp>map>eye path.

[sauce]

have you stopped playing miracles?

yes, that's what this implies ^^ :)

[Rock Lee]

Version I've been tinkering with:

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [RLM] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
3 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [CS] Commandeer
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap

Unsure about MBT versus Flusterstorm in the side. Trying to find a logical resolution of Commandeer/Glen Elendra with the other free/cheap counters of Swansong/Fluster. Still considering Disrupting Shoal, at which point I would go back to Flusterstorms over commandeer/MBT.

[203995014]

I usually prefer Flusterstorm because it's good as a general purpose counter vs. decks with a plan similar to Pox. Mindbreak Trap on the other hand it's only really relevant vs. Storm or combo decks that cast multiple spells in a turn and it will counter an uncounterable spell if you're lucky.

Then again maybe I'm just boarding wrong.

Why Chain of Vapor over Snap?

[Mockingbird]

Why Chain of Vapor over Snap?

:u: versus :1::u:
Target non-land vs. target creature

And... we can win out if the opponent decides to start a sac land war.

It's a utility issue.

[Rock Lee]

:u: versus :1::u:
Target non-land vs. target creature

And... we can win out if the opponent decides to start a sac land war.

It's a utility issue.

You combo with candelabra, or top, and can bounce lilly/Vial. All things Snap doesn't do.

[Davek]

Hey guys, with all this hype about Depths.deck i've found that recurring wastelands are getting more and more common, so i'm happy to keep needles maindeck. I'm also convinced that the newest hatebear, SoL, will soon receive the attention it really merits. I mean, it cripples the 90% of the tier deck in the meta, why should it be considered a sb card? For this reason i've dropped the Ponder plan (and i'm glad i did, it doesn't really fit my playstyle). Taking ideas here and there and adding my own distorted cerebral waves, i've come to this:

// Lands
2 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Cavern of Souls

// Creatures
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Trinket Mage

// Spells
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Crop Rotation
4 Brainstorm
4 Repeal
4 Show and Tell
3 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle

The sb is the thing i'm less sure about, but whatever...

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 4 Swan Song
SB: 3 Extract
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 All is Dust
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant

Extract: i was tired to play defensively against ANT (TES is not represented in my area and i feel that overall is a worse deck) so having a "turn1 i win button" is amazing, it's really a 1-card combo vs them. Ops, i've just exiled your only winning condition from your deck! Comes in handy against omnitell too, removing their lonely Emrakul.

Engineered Explosives: again, with Lands on the rise it's easier to face Chalice of the void too, and this is a nice thing i can tutor with Trinket Mages to solve the problem long enough to drop my artifacts, play my bs and set the board to beat them soundly. It's pretty handy against Delver deck, in particular UWR, where you can blow flying insects and overgrown germs setting it at 0.

Swan Song/Flusterstorm: counterspells for combo matchups mainly. I think i side them in pretty rarely compared to the most of you, i use them only if i really see something that can combo me out, or is impacting like Blood Moon/Price of Progress.

All is Dust/Submerge: Team America/BUG Delver/Elves are on the rise too, so packing sweepers isn't a bad thing. All is Dust is MUCH better than Oblivion Stone in my opinion, Abrupt Decay is a thing in all these matchups and i prefere something that doesn't blow my precious artifacts together with all the rest. All is dust really owns Deathblade and Esperblade too.

Venser, Shaper Savant: he's here for Omnitell, Sneak&Show, Reanimator, UW Miracle. Nothing special, but he helped me many times, so i trust him.

Please let me know what you think!

[Seirei]

Hi guys,

so why exactly are cards like Horn of Greed, Retraced Image or Summer Bloom ruled out in this deck?

I've searched the thread and saw that these cards were at least mentioned, but nobody gave any reason why they could be worse than other cards we have in here.

Could anyone enlighten me on this?

[moseby]

I have been playing 12 post for the last couple of years but with the resurgence of waste/loam. I have been trying out rectum-tell again for the next little bit.
I do not like trying to fight recurring wastes

[203995014]

Hi guys,

so why exactly are cards like Horn of Greed, Retraced Image or Summer Bloom ruled out in this deck?

I've searched the thread and saw that these cards were at least mentioned, but nobody gave any reason why they could be worse than other cards we have in here.

Could anyone enlighten me on this?

Short answer is this is a control deck, not a ramp deck.

[Zotmaster]

Hi guys,

so why exactly are cards like Horn of Greed, Retraced Image or Summer Bloom ruled out in this deck?

I've searched the thread and saw that these cards were at least mentioned, but nobody gave any reason why they could be worse than other cards we have in here.

Could anyone enlighten me on this?

As stated, the short answer is that this is a control deck and not a ramp deck. Longer answer to follow.

Retraced Image, in particular, is absolutely awful. Looking at the lists that people commonly run, there's not a whole lot you could even put in, and even less that you'd actually want to. I guess you could use it to double up on Primeval Titan, but that screams "win more" from the rooftops. If one is on the battlefield, odds are pretty good the opponent can't deal with it as it is, otherwise it probably would immediately eat a removal spell. It also means you would have to hold another Titan in hand...for reasons. Basically, it would involve me wasting a slot in my hand - a slot that I could put back on top of my library with Brainstorm and shuffle out or otherwise move away with Ponder, Sensei's Divining Top, fetchlands, or whatever, in favor of grabbing a card that can help me with my current situation. Probably the only real way the card would be used would be to get another land onto the battlefield...but it has to be a land you already have out. Exploration does way more to accomplish this role, and it does it better. Speaking of which, I'll get back to Exploration momentarily.

Speaking of ramp decks and Exploration, before I had access to Force of Will and duals, I tweaked the deck to make it monogreen and I made it a ramp deck. I ran cards like Exploration, Horn of Greed, and the hilarious budget rare Clear the Land: a card which even most Magic veterans have to actually stop and look at to determine what it does. When the deck really hummed, I could hard-cast Emrakul, the Aeons Torn turn 4, turn 3 with a little luck, and turn 2 a single time with an accidental assist from my opponent (which was absolutely hilarious). Most of the time, though, the deck just flat-out fell on its face. If my opponent had any disruption, I was in trouble. If my opponent could combo out quicker, I was in trouble.

The big problem with all of these cards is actually pretty simple: the cards do absolutely nothing by themselves. Dropping Horn of Greed, for example, won't even pay out for you the first turn you could play it, assuming you get it out. If your opponent takes his turn, drops a land (netting a card), and then destroys it, you've actively helped your opponent and cost him little to nothing. If you don't pull a land off the top rope, it's still doing you nothing. Exploration suffers the same problem. While combining it with Horn makes it stronger late, it still, again, does nothing by itself. Compare this to the RUG or U/G lists. How many cards are "do nothing"? Really, probably the only one is Show and Tell, and even that's a bad example since there will nearly always be something you can use it on, and quite often, a resolved Show basically wins you the game outright.

[Seirei]

Okay, thanks for the indepht review.

I already thought these cards may be too situational, but you raise some good points.

[203995014]

Why are we mainboarding Bojuka Bog instead of Glacial Chasm? Isn't Glacial Chasm going to be much more relevant? It also gives us an out vs. fast aggro G1 which we don't really have G1 and works vs. Dredge also.

[Mockingbird]

Version I've been tinkering with:

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [RLM] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
3 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [CS] Commandeer
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap

Unsure about MBT versus Flusterstorm in the side. Trying to find a logical resolution of Commandeer/Glen Elendra with the other free/cheap counters of Swansong/Fluster. Still considering Disrupting Shoal, at which point I would go back to Flusterstorms over commandeer/MBT.

With only 1 Chain of Vapor to be Repeal 5, I think you may want to try to use the slot to try Stroke of Genius (or maybe -1 Top), but you can go back to my thoughts (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24848-Deck-Turbo-Eldrazi&p=786058&viewfull=1#post786058) from my testing it on the previous pages. While my opinion hasn't changed that much, I'm still running the one, which is saying something in favor of it.

[sauce]

is jund considered a bad matchup? i figured it was close to a bye, but it seems like turn1 drs, turn2 liliana is pretty annoying for the deck. especially if they get a hymn/waste as well.

[203995014]

is jund considered a bad matchup? i figured it was close to a bye, but it seems like turn1 drs, turn2 liliana is pretty annoying for the deck. especially if they get a hymn/waste as well.

Jund matchup isn't the best one to play against. This deck just has a very hard time winning when Jund curves out and the deck also runs Wasteland and discard combined.

[sauce]

what's everyone take on kozilek, is he really necessary, i've piloted the deck for last 8 weeks and am 31-4-1 w/o it and 29-2-1 w/ 0 candelabras. just curious if the kozilek is actually needed and if itis, for what reason.
there were maybe 2-3 instances in all of my 36 matches that i was flooded w/o a SDT and no crop rotation for eye of ugin to win where it would be an extra bomb to draw that would win the game, but i am more often find myself fighting to survive long enough to play or S&T (matchup dependant) a titan or hard cast ulamog (and/or emrakul).

most games vs aggro are either titan -> win or hide behind glacial chasm long enough to titan and then win.
most games vs control are just play my lands -> win
most games vs combo are crop rotation into bojuka bog or karakas g1 and then g2/g3 bring in 13 counterspells and pray.

[Zotmaster]

what's everyone take on kozilek, is he really necessary, i've piloted the deck for last 8 weeks and am 31-4-1 w/o it and 29-2-1 w/ 0 candelabras. just curious if the kozilek is actually needed and if itis, for what reason.
there were maybe 2-3 instances in all of my 36 matches that i was flooded w/o a SDT and no crop rotation for eye of ugin to win where it would be an extra bomb to draw that would win the game, but i am more often find myself fighting to survive long enough to play or S&T (matchup dependant) a titan or hard cast ulamog (and/or emrakul).

most games vs aggro are either titan -> win or hide behind glacial chasm long enough to titan and then win.
most games vs control are just play my lands -> win
most games vs combo are crop rotation into bojuka bog or karakas g1 and then g2/g3 bring in 13 counterspells and pray.

I'm gonna quote myself here, from earlier:


The applications of Ulamog and Emrakul are pretty self-explanatory, but the most pressing question is usually "Why Kozilek?" It's a lot of different, if situational, factors.

There are a great many games where my hand is (or is nearly) empty by the time I cast an Eldrazi. Kozilek fills your hand regardless of his fate (unless he runs into a Stifle). Getting four more cards is no joke, as it digs even deeper than Sensei's Divining Top. Especially in my (cheapo) version, which isn't running blue, I need to see as many cards as possible to have a chance.

When you look at it from a cost perspective, Kozilek is actually pretty mana efficient. Even without Annihilator or draw four, Kozilek is a 12/12 for 10, or often even 8 mana. He is easier to cast than Ulamog while also being larger than Ulamog. Kozilek and Ulamog are also prime targets to eat a Swords to Plowshares: that extra two life sometimes makes a difference. And speaking of easier to cast, if you play long enough there will be a game where you're holding an Ulamog in hand with either 8 or 10 mana on the board, cursing the gods of randomness that you don't have that extra single mana to cast him. An Eldrazi on the battlefield is a game-changer. An Eldrazi in your hand is a piece of cardboard that you hopefully put in a sleeve.

Finally, Eldrazi are still vulnerable to hate. I've seen my Emrakul eat a Slaughter Games and Surgical Extraction before. While neither situation is terribly common, you're going to be unhappy when multiple copies of the same Eldrazi get ripped out of your deck because you didn't run, say, Kozilek.

If you're like me, you'll be skeptical about the value of Kozilek when you first run the deck. But run him. He'll pay out in the end.

I've never regretted running a Kozilek. Now I'm running the RUG list, and I even cast one into a Standstill the other day. That's still card advantage for me, even if Kozilek ends up getting countered. Actually, that game in particular, I ended up casting Kozilek three times: my opponent had Liliana of the Veil and Jace, the Mind Sculptor out. I had Karakas, though, and the never ending stream of card advantage eventually won me the day.

[sauce]

I'm gonna quote myself here, from earlier:



I've never regretted running a Kozilek. Now I'm running the RUG list, and I even cast one into a Standstill the other day. That's still card advantage for me, even if Kozilek ends up getting countered. Actually, that game in particular, I ended up casting Kozilek three times: my opponent had Liliana of the Veil and Jace, the Mind Sculptor out. I had Karakas, though, and the never ending stream of card advantage eventually won me the day.

i understand the obvious merits of the card, but i fail to understand the specific matchups where you need him.

[Mockingbird]

i understand the obvious merits of the card, but i fail to understand the specific matchups where you need him.
All of them.

It's not match-ups you need Kozilek, it's situations. Primary one being topdecking or stuck on 8-10 mana, which yes, it happens, and it's frustrating. And the reason I still play Kozilek even though I'm playing Stroke of Genius is because 1. Draw power that dodges counter magic 2. it's a respectable body 3. His grave trigger is my most likely chance to recycle Cloudposts that have fallen to Wasteland.

[sauce]

All of them.

It's not match-ups you need Kozilek, it's situations. Primary one being topdecking or stuck on 8-10 mana, which yes, it happens, and it's frustrating. And the reason I still play Kozilek even though I'm playing Stroke of Genius is because 1. Draw power that dodges counter magic 2. it's a respectable body 3. His grave trigger is my most likely chance to recycle Cloudposts that have fallen to Wasteland.

can you pm/post your list and metagame?

[Mockingbird]

can you pm/post your list and metagame?

Currently:

//Lands: 24
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
2 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog

//Creatures: 7
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

//Artifacts: 10
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top

//Instants: 13
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Repeal
1 Stroke of Genius

//Sorceries: 6
3 Ponder
3 Show and Tell

//Sideboard: 15
4 Force of Will
4 Swan Song
3 Flusterstorm
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pithing Needle
1 Glacial Chasm

It's a mess, but it has a decent win record (i'm 70%, which is not likely as good as Rock Lee) between this and my MUD-Post deck. I play mostly online for budget and player base reasons, but the metagame there right now is mostly BUG and Elves!. It's annoying because I put Pithing Needle back in the main not primarily to call Wasteland, and it's almost all B(x)(y) Control decks. I can handle most of them unless they decide to get cute early with hand destruction or in the case of elves, do an "Oops, I just won" move. While I see other decks as well, the only thing I note is the lack of combo decks lately. I'm sure they're there, but I just dodge them a lot.

[ac3eb]

So I'm looking to pick this deck back up after giving it a rest for a couple of months. It's just too much fun. However, the new flavor of the month in my local meta is DnT and that just feels like a pretty unfavorable matchup (correct me if I'm wrong). Is the best option to fight DnT still Chain of Vapor in the main? There's got to be something better out there, though U and G don't exactly give you the best tools to fight hatebears. I'm thinking O-stone is still a decent option though revoker does spoil the fun. All is dust is probably too expensive if they have any decent start. I might just choose to ignore it and see how it goes with the 3 ponders maindeck as I'm somewhat of a "purist" when it comes to lists, but I def don't feel confident in the matchup.

[kingtk3]

So I'm looking to pick this deck back up after giving it a rest for a couple of months. It's just too much fun. However, the new flavor of the month in my local meta is DnT and that just feels like a pretty unfavorable matchup (correct me if I'm wrong). Is the best option to fight DnT still Chain of Vapor in the main? There's got to be something better out there, though U and G don't exactly give you the best tools to fight hatebears. I'm thinking O-stone is still a decent option though revoker does spoil the fun. All is dust is probably too expensive if they have any decent start. I might just choose to ignore it and see how it goes with the 3 ponders maindeck as I'm somewhat of a "purist" when it comes to lists, but I def don't feel confident in the matchup.

I think that basics and repeal/pithing needle on vial or bolt/bonfire their board is the way to approach the matchup.

[sauce]

I think that basics and repeal/pithing needle on vial or bolt/bonfire their board is the way to approach the matchup.

also just executing your game plan works well. crop rotating in response to port or wasteland and pithing needle on wasteland/vial/port in that order. if they can't abuse vial, they cant afford to port as much.
it's definitely a tough matchup but it's easier than jund since they give you a lot more time and don't interact w/ your hand

[That nice guy]

My musings on the current meta/post-builds:

Is The new spirit a problem? Yes. But does it warrant cutting my sweet, sweet ponders? IDK. I run 4 ponder in my very focused list, BTW, it's amazing. And since almost every win I've ever had against D&T has come from a show-> Prime, I think that it won't matter much.

I've been considering cutting 2 Ponder for 2 Trinket Mage since the meta has seemed to slow a bit, and then cut another Ponder for a Engineered Explosives in the main. This would also tempt me into putting one chalice in the side. BUT, Aven Mindsensor has something to say about me trying this. IDK, but I will test it and let you guys know if you're interested. Also, I miss a single Mox Diamond in the main.

The only other thing I've been considering testing is running a Eureka or two with a Chasm in the main, considering that there are a lot of times when my only path to victory seems to be getting a Prime Time ASAP (Merfolk, D&T, RUG w/ 1st turn delver). What do you guys think. I think it's bad, but worth a shot. I just wish I could run 6 Show & Tell!

[Rock Lee]

This version I brought to my local weekly meta as prep for SCG NJ this weekend. Split the finals with another 12post list, but lost when we played the game out. As anyone who reads this thread and plays this deck knows, metagaming the maindeck to beat the non-mirror means that losing the mirror is an easy task. This was the list I used:

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [RLM] Glacial Chasm
1 [R] Forest (1)

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya

// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
1 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker


I will likely test with 0 ponders, 2 candelabra, 1 trinket mage, as Oracle has been quite deliciously overkill as intended, with Ponder not being fully necessary.

[kingtk3]

What is the main reason for oracle? Also, why revokers instead of needles in the side?

[Rock Lee]

What is the main reason for oracle? Also, why revokers instead of needles in the side?

With the deck purely sideboarded against combo, I have found zero problem beating combo in 3. So Oracle allows an equally strong maindeck against midrange/aggro/tempo. Needle I still loathe, and was only needling sneak attack/griselbrand, and wishing I could needle Heritage druid/Lion's Eye Diamond/Lotus Petal in addition to Sneak Attack/Griselbrand/Aether Vial. Revoker hits these, while also providing colorless blockers versus Mother of Runes and Healing Salve'ing against highly aggressive decks.

[sauce]

needle is still great vs wasteland and liliana as well as a lot of other targets such as sneak attack/griseldaddy. i do like access to it but you can play around hate cards w/o needles but you lean a lot heavier on crop rotation then.

[Maagler]

For Reference this is the list Rock played against:

1 Kozilek, butcher of truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul the Aeons torn
4 Primeval Titain
2 Trinket Mage

4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Expedition Map
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Crop Rotation
3 Repeal
4 Brainstorm
4 Show and Tell

1 Glacial Chasm
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Vesuva
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest


Side:

4 Force of will
3 Fluster Storm
3 Swan Song
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Glen, Elendra Archmage
3 Gut Shot


Went 4:0 playing against Nic fit, Burn, Death and Taxes, and 12 Post, Dropping Games to 12 Post and Burn.

I brought Gut shot in against DNT but it didn't seem to make a difference to the game, I am probably going to switch them to something more relevant in the match, perhaps Phyrexian Revoker.

Chasm Main saved me verse burn, buying me time to drop 3 Primeval Titian and gain a bunch of life.

[sauce]

I don't understand why there is so much inconsistencies with this deck between the lists...
Some people run 0-3 Pithing Needle, some people run 2-4 Expedition maps.
Most people run 4 Repeal but some are running 3?
Some people run 3 Sensei's divining top, but most run 4.
Some people run 3 Crop rotation, others run 4.
There is also debate on number of Candelabras 0, 1 or 2.

EDIT: Also, most people are on 3 Show on Tells, but some are now on 4?

The other issue is the number of Vesuvas. Some people went down to 2, but it looks like they are running some amount of Ponders also and 25 lands.
I am running 27 lands w/ 3 Vesuva and 1 Cavern of souls. Trying 5th fetch over 3rd basic Island.

Then there are the other slots like Ponders, Trinket mage(s), Oblivion Stones, Engineered explosives, Bonfire of the damned.
Why is there no consensus on all of this?

[Rock Lee]

I don't understand why there is so much inconsistencies with this deck between the lists...
Some people run 0-3 Pithing Needle, some people run 2-4 Expedition maps.
Most people run 4 Repeal but some are running 3?
Some people run 3 Sensei's divining top, but most run 4.
Some people run 3 Crop rotation, others run 4.
There is also debate on number of Candelabras 0, 1 or 2.

EDIT: Also, most people are on 3 Show on Tells, but some are now on 4?

The other issue is the number of Vesuvas. Some people went down to 2, but it looks like they are running some amount of Ponders also and 25 lands.
I am running 27 lands w/ 3 Vesuva and 1 Cavern of souls. Trying 5th fetch over 3rd basic Island.

Then there are the other slots like Ponders, Trinket mage(s), Oblivion Stones, Engineered explosives, Bonfire of the damned.
Why is there no consensus on all of this?

Not sure if this is trolling due to illiteracy or just lethargy. The incredibly expansive mana pool available allows for wide deck variation. This is covered many times over this thread. Also Changes in the meta provoke great change in control decks, and this is a control deck at its heart.

[Razorwynd]

I don't understand why there is so much inconsistencies with this deck between the lists...
Some people run 0-3 Pithing Needle, some people run 2-4 Expedition maps.
Most people run 4 Repeal but some are running 3?
Some people run 3 Sensei's divining top, but most run 4.
Some people run 3 Crop rotation, others run 4.
There is also debate on number of Candelabras 0, 1 or 2.

EDIT: Also, most people are on 3 Show on Tells, but some are now on 4?

The other issue is the number of Vesuvas. Some people went down to 2, but it looks like they are running some amount of Ponders also and 25 lands.
I am running 27 lands w/ 3 Vesuva and 1 Cavern of souls. Trying 5th fetch over 3rd basic Island.

Then there are the other slots like Ponders, Trinket mage(s), Oblivion Stones, Engineered explosives, Bonfire of the damned.
Why is there no consensus on all of this?
If the answer was obvious then there would be no need for the very thread you posted your comment in

[sauce]

Not sure if this is trolling due to illiteracy or just lethargy. The incredibly expansive mana pool available allows for wide deck variation. This is covered many times over this thread. Also Changes in the meta provoke great change in control decks, and this is a control deck at its heart.

You think people come here to troll you?

May want to update the primer if that's the case. It is talking about the core of the deck being 4 Vesuva. You trolling us in the primer? :cool:

[Maagler]

I don't understand why there is so much inconsistencies with this deck between the lists...
Some people run 0-3 Pithing Needle, some people run 2-4 Expedition maps.
Most people run 4 Repeal but some are running 3?
Some people run 3 Sensei's divining top, but most run 4.
Some people run 3 Crop rotation, others run 4.
There is also debate on number of Candelabras 0, 1 or 2.

EDIT: Also, most people are on 3 Show on Tells, but some are now on 4?

The other issue is the number of Vesuvas. Some people went down to 2, but it looks like they are running some amount of Ponders also and 25 lands.
I am running 27 lands w/ 3 Vesuva and 1 Cavern of souls. Trying 5th fetch over 3rd basic Island.

Then there are the other slots like Ponders, Trinket mage(s), Oblivion Stones, Engineered explosives, Bonfire of the damned.
Why is there no consensus on all of this?

Why do some sneak and show decks run 4 islands rather than 3? Or some UW decks run rest in peace while others run back to basics?

Most decks have varying card numbers in the main. Changes in numbers of these cards have to do with a couple things, metagame, play style, and preference.

Have you played the deck? if so what is your meta? We can help you understand better if you more clearly articulate your questions. If you actually try the deck you will see the subtle differences when playing with different amounts of each of those cards.

I don't think you are trying to troll, but the answer to that question seems kinda obvious if you stop an think about it for a second. Maybe try to be more specific and it will look less like trolling.

[Darkenslight]

I don't understand why there is so much inconsistencies with this deck between the lists...
Some people run 0-3 Pithing Needle, some people run 2-4 Expedition maps.
Most people run 4 Repeal but some are running 3?
Some people run 3 Sensei's divining top, but most run 4.
Some people run 3 Crop rotation, others run 4.
There is also debate on number of Candelabras 0, 1 or 2.

EDIT: Also, most people are on 3 Show on Tells, but some are now on 4?

The other issue is the number of Vesuvas. Some people went down to 2, but it looks like they are running some amount of Ponders also and 25 lands.
I am running 27 lands w/ 3 Vesuva and 1 Cavern of souls. Trying 5th fetch over 3rd basic Island.

Then there are the other slots like Ponders, Trinket mage(s), Oblivion Stones, Engineered explosives, Bonfire of the damned.
Why is there no consensus on all of this?

Rock answered this better, but at its heart, this is the most flexible control deck in Legacy - the core of the deck takes up 23-24 slots (4 Crop, 12 Locus, X Forest, 3 Primeval Titan, Eye of Ugin, 3 Eldrazi). Everything else is esssentially a metagame slot, which gives this deck amazing flexibility, but also requires a high-metagame read.

[Pdingo]

Hei guys

So here is my List for the perfect meta..:

2 All is Dust (So why this removal, The Answer is easy, I think ist better than an EE or Oblvion Stone. Against RUG delver or UWR Delver just to good. They can't waste us because of needle, Destroys PWS too, 2 cc less because of eye)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Primeval Titan (Titan is the ''Best Creature'' in the Deck. So 4 should be right)
3 Pithing Needle (3 are normal because a lot wasteland decks are around, RUG Delver, Burg, UWR delver etc.)
3 Vesuva (2-3 are ok and i think sometimes i can go to 2 but i like 3)
4 Tropical Island
4 Show and Tell (Best Card in the Deck! Don't understand why People Play 3..just bad...)
4 Crop Rotation
3 Repeal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Expedition Map
4 Glimmerpost
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Cloudpost
1 Bojuka Bog (Can hurt ANT/Reanimate Players or Nimble Moongoose, should be main as a 1off)
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
4 Brainstorm
1 Island
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Polluted Delta (5th Fetch for Brainstorm)


SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 4 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Elephant Grass
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm (SB because i rarelly Need this main, But sb a very nice Card)

[203995014]

Hei guys

So here is my List for the perfect meta..:

2 All is Dust (So why this removal, The Answer is easy, I think ist better than an EE or Oblvion Stone. Against RUG delver or UWR Delver just to good. They can't waste us because of needle, Destroys PWS too, 2 cc less because of eye)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Primeval Titan (Titan is the ''Best Creature'' in the Deck. So 4 should be right)
3 Pithing Needle (3 are normal because a lot wasteland decks are around, RUG Delver, Burg, UWR delver etc.)
3 Vesuva (2-3 are ok and i think sometimes i can go to 2 but i like 3)
4 Tropical Island
4 Show and Tell (Best Card in the Deck! Don't understand why People Play 3..just bad...)
4 Crop Rotation
3 Repeal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Expedition Map
4 Glimmerpost
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Cloudpost
1 Bojuka Bog (Can hurt ANT/Reanimate Players or Nimble Moongoose, should be main as a 1off)
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
4 Brainstorm
1 Island
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Polluted Delta (5th Fetch for Brainstorm)


SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 4 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Elephant Grass
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm (SB because i rarelly Need this main, But sb a very nice Card)

Pithing Needle isn't there to deal with wasteland, it names Liliana, Deathrite Shaman, Mangara, etc. Wasteland is easy to play around. It's not a crutch, but rather a support card.

Some people don't like the 4th Show and Tell because it's a plan that's way down the line. It is a support card similar to Needle and should never be a crutch or a Plan A. However, in some matchups it becomes necessary which is why some people don't like only using 3.

[Rock Lee]

Just won a local 1k with this build:

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [RLM] Glacial Chasm
1 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [M10] Ponder
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [M10] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker

Matchups included stifle/naught, the mirror, Affinity, and OmniShow. Then Top 8 was Vampire Tribal Midrange (not lying, they almost got me with sanguine blood dropped on Show & tell into Exquisite Blood), The mirror again, then u/r pyromancer delver in finals.

Felt very solid. Mirror is, as always, horrid.

[ac3eb]

Hey guys,

Could anyone quickly run through the sideboard plan against combo decks? I'm having a bit of a hard time figuring out 12 cards to get rid of from the maindeck. Last time I played with this deck at a tournament I was still running elephant grass and oblivion stones in the board...Going to rock this deck Monday. Thanks in advance!

[203995014]

Hey guys,

Could anyone quickly run through the sideboard plan against combo decks? I'm having a bit of a hard time figuring out 12 cards to get rid of from the maindeck. Last time I played with this deck at a tournament I was still running elephant grass and oblivion stones in the board...Going to rock this deck Monday. Thanks in advance!

Side out Primeval Titan, Ulamog, Kozilek, Show and Tell, and Candelabra of Tawnos (or any useless card in the deck if there is one)

[Pdingo]

Playing Around Wasteland?? 1 Wasteland can hurt us really hard in a Match like RUG Delver or UWR delver? I think in a match up like this, we can't Play around this;)
I think pihting first naming is always wasteland..

Snt into Titan should be winn moest of the Time;)

[203995014]

Playing Around Wasteland?? 1 Wasteland can hurt us really hard in a Match like RUG Delver or UWR delver? I think in a match up like this, we can't Play around this;)
I think pihting first naming is always wasteland..

Snt into Titan should be winn moest of the Time;)

The reason why wasteland is hurting you is because you're playing INTO wasteland when you should be playing AROUND it. This is a deck that should never be played with a single linear plan unlike a deck like Sneak and Tell or Jund, rather you should have multiple plans for multiple possibilities in the matchup.

Below are a few ways to play around wasteland:

1: Don't keep hands that require you to be unmolested for several turns. This is even stated in the primer and that primer is really outdated.

2: Also stated in the primer, T1 Cloudpost on the play is very good. If the opponent decides to wasteland it T1 they can't advance, if they don't you can just carry on. If they decide to wasteland it later it's like getting a dual land wastelanded playing delver. 75% of the reason you put it there T1 is to get it wastelanded in the first place and it is a win if you don't anyway. This however is a terrible idea on the draw since they can wasteland it and keep casting relevant spells while you're sitting there helpless.

3: If you don't play a T1 cloudpost refrain from playing one after unless you can protect it or you're playing it with the goal of getting it wastelanded. Some people won't even naturally play Cloudpost the entire game and Show and Tell or cast Primeval Titan "the old fashioned way" because by doing so they can make wasteland less effective until they land the Primeval Titan.

4: This plan only really works on G1 and even so it rarely ever happens. Try and get the Tropical Island wastelanded. This means fetching it instead of basic lands or making the distinction between basic lands and dual lands on the field. However this should only be attempted in the early turns of the game because eventually you're going to reveal that you're a post-ramp deck. The entire game shouldn't be spent trying to do this.

There are multiple other ways you can play around wasteland but listing all of them would take a really long time. Using Pithing Needle as a crutch is how you fail with this deck. Naming Wasteland with Pithing Needle is perfectly acceptable vs. Delver or Stoneblade because those are the only legitimate targets for it but otherwise Liliana is actually really scary and naming Deathrite Shaman when the opponent plays it T1 messes up their line of play and gives you a pretty good area to breathe. If you know how to play around wasteland those matchups are actually quite good.

I only ever Show and Tell Primeval Titan as a counter-protection shell or if the situation needs Primeval Titan that turn. You shouldn't play it just because you can.

[Pdingo]

I think sometimes it's better to Play t1 needle and not a post, specially when you know what the openent Plays. Against Tempo Match it's just better;)

[Mockingbird]

I think sometimes it's better to Play t1 needle and not a post, specially when you know what the openent Plays. Against Tempo Match it's just better;)

That's game 2. Throwing needles with your eyes closed is fun and all, but you really can't hit your opponent where it hurts until you know where to throw it.

Case and point: Calling... well anything... turn 1 against OmniShow is just... just... well, bad. (I guess if you call the right fetch congratulations).

Sure, Wasteland is the biggest catch-all and is run by most decks, but to be honest, I question whether you've played the deck enough because most people realized six months to a year ago that there are more devastating effects an opponent can inflict on us than picking off Locus lands in an even trade. Also, Abrupt Decay has made Needle exponentially weaker.

[Pdingo]

yes your right but normally you wait a turn and moest of the time you see what they Play and hit second turn a needle..

[203995014]

yes your right but normally you wait a turn and moest of the time you see what they Play and hit second turn a needle..

...which is how you should be playing Pithing Needle in the first place. Creatures have summoning sickness and a single activation of Liliana or Jace isn't going to end the game. What cards are you playing against that work as soon as they enter that put you at a significant disadvantage?

[That nice guy]

Just won a local 1k with this build:

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [RLM] Glacial Chasm
1 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [M10] Ponder
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [M10] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker

Matchups included stifle/naught, the mirror, Affinity, and OmniShow. Then Top 8 was Vampire Tribal Midrange (not lying, they almost got me with sanguine blood dropped on Show & tell into Exquisite Blood), The mirror again, then u/r pyromancer delver in finals.

Felt very solid. Mirror is, as always, horrid.


1. How was Trinket?

1.5. If you're going to run trinket, what are your thoughts on an Engineered Explosive main (and perhaps a chalice in the side to put on 0(I Know it's bad)) or another needle in the side)?
I kinda miss the single Mox Diamond, not great but just sayin.

2. Wish you had an Oracle instead of the trinket?

3. Care to tell us how you sideboarded?

4. Why no Butcher in this meta?

[Postman]

This version I brought to my local weekly meta as prep for SCG NJ this weekend. Split the finals with another 12post list, but lost when we played the game out. As anyone who reads this thread and plays this deck knows, metagaming the maindeck to beat the non-mirror means that losing the mirror is an easy task. This was the list I used:

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [RLM] Glacial Chasm
1 [R] Forest (1)

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya

// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
1 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker


I will likely test with 0 ponders, 2 candelabra, 1 trinket mage, as Oracle has been quite deliciously overkill as intended, with Ponder not being fully necessary.

Played a tiny tournament yesterday, using almost Rock Lee's list from above with these changes:

Main:

- 1 Oralce of Mul Daya
- 2 Expedition Map
- 1 Ponder

+ 1 Show and Tell
+ 2 Candelabra of Tawnos
+ 1 Green Sun's Zenith

SB:

- 3 Phyrexian Revoker

+ 1 Venser
+ 2 Pithing Needle

Only went 2 - 2 :-/

Round 1 : MUD (Welder) 1:2

Chalice in addition with Ports and Wastelands slowed me down too much

Round 2 : Mono U Illusions 1:2

He was too fast and played B2B main! :cry:

Round 3 : D'n'T 2:0

No real problems, some nice top-draws, 2 quick wins

Round 4 : Goblins (Rb) 2:1

Again a real fast deck, but Chasmn main helped a lot! And game 3, turn 3: Show and Tell into Emmy:cool:

Losing to Mono U Illusions....ok. Fast aggro Deck with Counters, happens. But I would like to ask for some advice on how to fight MUD? Felt like gimmy more Needles, since one stopped Karn, but Metalworker ruined the remaining game (enabling Sundering Titan...).

[TimHarding]

...which is how you should be playing Pithing Needle in the first place. Creatures have summoning sickness and a single activation of Liliana or Jace isn't going to end the game. What cards are you playing against that work as soon as they enter that put you at a significant disadvantage?

Griselbrand, Wirewood Symbiote

[Davek]

I'm sorry guys, but i really can't understand why ponder seems so good to the most of you while i find it useless/horrible 90% of the times i have it in hand. It will never be preferred to another turn 1 card (with the exception of G1 pithing needle, of course). It forces you to sacrifice your fetchlands during your turn to pay for its cost, exposing your lands to easier wastelanding and limiting the effectiveness of your crop rotations, since you cannot always have a second coloured source in play to at least simulate a crop rotation. I found it helpful expecially in late game as a shuffling effect, a thing that can be done by a trinket mage too at that point, with the bonus of providing an extra body to chumpblock something/protect your dudes from edict effects.

Also, why on earth should you side out Show and tells against combo decks not relying on SnT engine? It pitches to FoW at the very least, and allows you to drop an early bomb that can save your ass against storm/elves. It's also a very tempting card, that will be discarded most of the times by your opponents, saving your cantrips and sometimes even your counterspells too. Having to win a game against ANT by dropping your posts + eye in order to find your lonely Emrakul and cast it looks so slow that you'll have to face half of their deck hate in order to survive. In addition, you have to keep an eye on the clock, with a lost g1 pursuing that plan is a big risk if you want to end a couple more games in time.

[Rock Lee]

1. How was Trinket?

1.5. If you're going to run trinket, what are your thoughts on an Engineered Explosive main (and perhaps a chalice in the side to put on 0(I Know it's bad)) or another needle in the side)?
I kinda miss the single Mox Diamond, not great but just sayin.

2. Wish you had an Oracle instead of the trinket?

3. Care to tell us how you sideboarded?

4. Why no Butcher in this meta?

1. I never saw the purpose in EE. Repeal And Show & Tell does the job plenty vs delver. Mox diamond was there for color fixing in rUG build, which isn't needed as much in UG.

2. Tried 1-4 oracle the last two weeks. Prefer Zero /w ponders.

3. Perhaps when more awake. My sideboarding is very organic, and always opponent's deck dependent.

4. Testing no butcher just to squeeze slots. No Standstills, No huge counter wars, and faster clocks all dissuade Kozilek.

[Zotmaster]

I'm sorry guys, but i really can't understand why ponder seems so good to the most of you while i find it useless/horrible 90% of the times i have it in hand. It will never be preferred to another turn 1 card (with the exception of G1 pithing needle, of course). It forces you to sacrifice your fetchlands during your turn to pay for its cost, exposing your lands to easier wastelanding and limiting the effectiveness of your crop rotations, since you cannot always have a second coloured source in play to at least simulate a crop rotation. I found it helpful expecially in late game as a shuffling effect, a thing that can be done by a trinket mage too at that point, with the bonus of providing an extra body to chumpblock something/protect your dudes from edict effects.

A lot of it is that shuffle effect. The gods of randomness hate me, and there have been several instances off the top of my head where I've floated two, or even three, Primeval Titan or Eldrazi on the top of my deck with Sensei's Divining Top. Ponder is another effect that can function as another Top while also making those cards, if necessary, go away. Decks like ours need to see as many cards as possible in order to be successful.


Also, why on earth should you side out Show and tells against combo decks not relying on SnT engine? It pitches to FoW at the very least, and allows you to drop an early bomb that can save your ass against storm/elves. It's also a very tempting card, that will be discarded most of the times by your opponents, saving your cantrips and sometimes even your counterspells too. Having to win a game against ANT by dropping your posts + eye in order to find your lonely Emrakul and cast it looks so slow that you'll have to face half of their deck hate in order to survive. In addition, you have to keep an eye on the clock, with a lost g1 pursuing that plan is a big risk if you want to end a couple more games in time.

At least from what I've seen, most combo decks kill you the turn they decide to go off, and the turn you Show and Tell anything in is a turn that costs you three mana and that's it. Your opponent still has his or her turn to progress, and a lot of times that will kill you. Also don't underestimate the value of the fact that your opponent now knows you have two fewer cards that can stop his or her plan. How many cards do you now have in your hand? Two? Well, that means you probably can only counter one spell safely. Three cards in hand? You can probably counter one, maybe two spells if you're lucky.

Let me describe a particular combo matchup to you. One of my friends plays Tin Fins, and sometimes we get matched up against each other when we play in local tournaments. Let me describe Game 1 to you:

Me (Turn 1): Land, maybe play Top, go.
Him (Turn 1): Win the game.

We had a game like this, and for fun, Game 2 I decided to bring my entire 15-card sideboard in against him (a fact that I made clear to him as I was doing it). Why? Because I can, because it's funny, and because all 15 cards I was running (for reference, I'm running Rock's RUG list here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24848-Deck-Turbo-Eldrazi&p=784770&viewfull=1#post784770) have game against Tin Fins.

I don't remember what pro Magic player said it - I think it was Frank Karsten - but he described the golden rule of playing control as this: "Don't do anything." Game 2, that's exactly what I did: I did absolutely nothing. If I cast anything, it was one-mana spells, and unless they were Sensei's Divining Top or Ponder, I did it at the end of his turn. Fast forward to around turn 9 or 10 or so. I have a full hand of cards, including 2 Flusterstorm, 2 Force of Will, and a Brainstorm, and I'm floating 2 Mindbreak Trap with Top. I've already countered two reanimation spells with Swan Song. And yet I still did nothing. Play land, go. End of your turn, peek at the library. Play land, go.

Eventually I got to 15 mana, cast Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and won.

The primer mentions it, but it bears being repeated and re-summarized until it's pounded into your head: as the number of turns in a Legacy game increases, so too does this deck's chance of winning. If the game goes past 10 or so turns, I don't care what my opponent is playing: I've won. Storm? Doesn't matter; I've won. Delver? Doesn't matter; I've won. Miracles? Doesn't matter; I've won.

Show and Tell counts as doing something. This deck wants to do nothing, because if the deck can get away with doing nothing for long enough, it wins.