[Deck] 12 Post

[Lord Seth]

Glacial Chasm only prevents damage, not life loss - just saying.Actually, I knew it only prevented damage. What I didn't know, and am embarrassed for not knowing, is that Tendrils of Agony is loss of life rather than damage. Guess it's just one of those things that was never relevant to me up until this point in my games against Storm.

[Davek]

Took down a 55-men event with this monstruosity

[MD]
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Trinket Mage
2 Oracle of Mul-Daya
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Pithing Needle
4 Repeal
3 Show and Tell

[SB]
3 Swan Song
1 Chalice of the Void
2 All is Dust
2 Moment's Peace
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm

Beated Goblins, draw with Reanimator, then beated Dark Depths combo, Esper Stoneblade, lost to ANT and beated Jund. With a record of 4-1-1 went into top 8 as 7th seat, beating ANT and another Dark Depths combo to finally split 1st and 2nd prizes with another ANT.

Too many ANTs lately in my area! Giving the fact the TES is absolutely un-represented here, i'm more and more tempted to give Extract a try!

[TimHarding]

Nice win! Those are awful matchups to pull in a row.

How was all is dust?

This was what I was getting at a few post back with trinket,2/2 package being good at spell based decks. If I expect any non-zero amount of storm/belcher whatever, I want 1 Mage 1 chalice. If I expect a lot, more chalices.

[Davek]

I've honestly never drawn them, so basing on this tournament i can't really say. I brought them in against goblins, blade (which i'm pretty sure was a deathblade and not a stoneblade) and jund. From what i saw in my little testing it's just a strictly better answer than Karn and it helps you winning games where ppl are eager to crowd the battlefield with non-land permanents (with the exception of MUD, of course).
I've often felt Karn is an overcosted vindicate, because you can't protect him very well, and if you can protect him then you're already winning, aren't you?

[into_play]

I recently picked up 12 post, as everyone has told me that "it's my type" of legacy deck. Despite winning games, I seem to have trouble closing out matches. I have a couple general questions about the deck.

Welcome to the 12Post club! The deck can be a great fit for certain types of players, specifically those who want to play high-impact cards, have very different games full of decision-making, and are not afraid to play an unorthodox strategy. The deck feels much different than any other Legacy deck at the moment, and it felt like the perfect deck for me since I started playing it over a year and a half ago. I saw your post and while I agree with much of Zotmaster's good analysis, I would like to offer some of my own insights to your questions.


Q1.). Against an aggro deck, when is the best time to play glacial chasm? This is one thing I can't figure out because with crop rotation, it seems like I go retrieving it way to late. Most of the time I can't afford to be setback a land or two.

Glacial Chasm is a complicated card and requires a lot of foresight to play correctly. Against Burn and UR Delver, I never play Chasm preemptively and always wait to Crop Rotation for it in response to a Price of Progress. Otherwise, the opponent will just wait until you have to ditch the Chasm and then dump their PoP and other burn on you.

Against any aggro deck killing you through attacking creatures, you need to evaluate how fast the opponent is going to be hurting you. Say, if they are going to start swinging with a 7/2 Ornithopter the next turn, then you should really just get it into play and not worry about dropping to a specific minimum life total. If possible against these very fast strategies, get it on the battlefield at 13 life or above, so you can have three turns to try and work something out (usually a Show and Tell in these situations). Having Glimmerposts in hand can give you some leeway around the magic numbers for Chasm (13 life, 7 life) and a Vesuva can effectively give you another turn to live with a new Chasm.


Q2.). After game 1, do you side out 1 of the unneeded utility lands? (Such as Karakas, chasm, Bojuka bog)

I side out my utility lands much less than most other players here probably do. I never side out Karakas; not only is the possibility of going infinite with Emrakul crucial in many games, it is one of your 14-16 mana sources that come into play untapped, which is important for your early game maneuvering.

I keep Glacial Chasm in whenever the opponent will be winning through damage, even if they have a relatively slow damage clock. Many times you will get a Primeval Titan into play and the best land to fetch is the Chasm, to effectively fog the opponent the next turn. I only side it out against storm variants, Omniscience, and sometimes Sneak & Show (it is bad against an Emrakul annihilator trigger).

I will keep Bojuka Bog in even if I can get a little bit of value out of it (Deathrite Shamans, Goyfs, Snapcasters, etc.)


Q3.) Assuming you show and tell PrimeTime early, what's the best pair of lands to get?

The answer is completely dependent on the situation, as others have stated. In your great matchups when you're under no real threats, just two Cloudposts or a Cloudpost and the Eye are fine to fetch and finish the game with. Against the dreaded ANT and TES, probably just get Glimmerposts every time. The Primeval Titan triggers are one of the big late game decisions that make the deck very difficult, but also very versatile and rewarding.


Q4.) Assuming you hardcast PrimeTime, I assume that when you want to search for Eye of Ugin with the EoTB effect.

Again, there is never a default choice for all situations. While playing this deck, instead of thinking, "This is what my deck is supposed to do, I should ramp up and aim for hardcasting Emrakul," you should play every opposing deck differently, based on your hand in each particular game. This may sound trivial, but I think that many players get too caught up in trying to play their deck according to what they think the Plan A route is (not just 12Post). But every game pans out differently, and improvising each game is probably a more sound strategy. You'll find that with this deck, you can often play yourself out of tight situations if you treat each situation differently.

I hope you will continue to keep playing the Post. I believe this deck's ability to finish is its strongest point; a hardcasted Emrakul is probably the most resounding, inescapable win condition in the format, if you can assemble the right pieces. And the deck is simply the most fun in the format. :smile:

[into_play]

I have a couple of sideboard questions for the other experienced pilots here. For my combo hate, I would rather not fill 80% of the board with counterspells (Force, Swan Song, Flusterstorm, Mindbreak Trap). Instead, I think I am going to keep half of it to fight combo and the other half for difficult but winnable matchups and just hope I don't run into too many combo decks. For a 7-8 card combo hate bunch, is there any merit to running some sphere effects? Against the storm builds, for example, I have found that the opponent will usually Duress/Cabal Therapy away your counters in hand. Ideally you want a Top in play with a counter on top of the deck, but that's not always easy to do. Sometimes I feel like dropping a Sphere of Resistance proactively is more problematic for them, fits our theme of playing to the battlefield, and also is better against hate like Silence and Xantid Swarm. Kurt Spiess's Lands build went heavy on sphere effects and it seemed to work fine for him. Granted, he had faster early mana and the mana denial of lands, but I think it is still worth a thought. I have turned away from Chalice of the Void for being anti-synergistic with the deck, and Trinisphere at 3 mana might be too slow. Does anyone have experience or thoughts on Sphere of Resistance? Lord Seth gave a good run-down of the most potential combo decks one might face. The most problematic matchups are clearly the decks that win without creatures, namely ANT, TES, High Tide and Omniscience. Seems like Sphere would be good against those, with some Swan Songs to supplement?

Another area of my sideboard I'm looking to shore up is 2-3 slots to hate both Elves and Death and Taxes. I used to run Cursed Totem, which is great against Elves, but only has minimal effect on what D&T is trying to do. There is also Oblivion Stone, but that is probably too slow against both decks. A while back, I remember people on here discussing Gut Shot against both of those builds. Against Elves, it can hit Wirewood Symbiote and Heritage Druid, both important parts to their combo. Against D&T, it kills a slew of creatures (Revoker, Thalia, Mindcensor, Flickerwisp, Mangara), so long as there is no Mother of Runes in play. If anyone has advice on Gut Shot, I would like to know because I am seriously considering it. Or any other cards, because I am really looking to have some more answers to these two decks, especially Death and Taxes.

By the way, I caved in and finally bought the 12Post build on MODO a few weeks ago (under the same name as here). Started playing the mono green build, then felt handicapped without the blue. Now I am trying to solve the U/G sideboard. So if you play online, you might see me playing this on there.

[Razorwynd]

By the way, I caved in and finally bought the 12Post build on MODO a few weeks ago (under the same name as here). Started playing the mono green build, then felt handicapped without the blue. Now I am trying to solve the U/G sideboard. So if you play online, you might see me playing this on there.

I just took the plunge as well. I am having a lot of fun (success) with the following semi-budget non-optimal list:

4 Crop Rotation
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
2 Vesuva
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Primeval Titan
4 Repeal
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Brainstorm
4 Cloudpost
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Tropical Island
2 Pithing Needle
2 Island
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Forest
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3 Expedition Map
1 Karakas
4 Glimmerpost
2 Moment's Peace

Sideboard
2 Krosan Grip
1 Trinket Mage
3 Spell Pierce
1 Pithing Needle
2 Envelop
2 Elephant Grass
4 Swan Song

Thus far I have been more than impressed with the GSZ although I have not actually faced too many decks where I need to be able to SnT on turn 3 (i.e., not a lot of combo or tempo games thus far), just a ton of miracles and esper deathblade.

I am looking forward to being able to contribute my thoughts to these forums...

[slayjay]

Won a small tournament yesterday in Darmstadt, Germany.

Play this deck for the first time and liked it a lot!
My list is far away from being perfect, but worked very well for me. Oracles and Trinkets were MVPs, give you so much action against late-game and mid-game decks.

Actually, I own only one Candelabra...but he was a nice have when I drawed him and not missed when not.


Team N!´s "D Generation X"

// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [BD] Island (3)
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [OD] Forest (4)


// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (aka Tripe H)
4 [M11] Primeval Titan (aka the Klique)
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth (aka Shawn Michaels)
2 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya


// Spells
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [OD] Moment's Peace


// Sideboard
SB: 3 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [MR] Oblivion Stone
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives


Luckily, I did the best what the deck can do - dodge storm decks...damn, 10 sideboard slots wasted for this tournament...I like the idea of Sphere of Resistance very much and will try this.


round 1: RW Painter
I was a little bid sad...painter is MY deck, I played it since 5 years, and never played a mirror match...this would have been my chance...he Blood Mooned every game, but Forest / Vesuva let me hardcast Titans and go beatdown, and game 3 Oblivion Stone trade 7 to 2. Nice to know how to play against painter. He tried to Blast my Posts several times (Painter naming blue), but I was able to repeal the Painter in response. Nice.

1-0, 2:1

round 2: UR Delver
Two very straight games, he could not do much about the fatties. Game 2 his next draw would have been price of progress, just to late...Before that, he had Blood Moon (again)...but I had enough lands to hardcast Emrakul with all the Mountains...

2-0, 4:1

round 3: BUG Delver
Game 1 he had first turn delver, second turn flip, beat me down to five. I didn´t get over three lands the first turns, unable to do a lot, baited some dazes. He get Goyf, I try to play Show and Tell, it resolves, Primeval Titan into 2 Glimmerposts, back to life. Repeal his flipped Delver, next turn attack with Titan, fetching Chasm. He attacked in Chams, read that card and scooped. Game 2 was turn 5 Show and Tell into Emrakul, not much action from him.

3-0, 6:1

round 4: 4 Color Loam

Seems a good matchup for me. Life, Wasteland and Knight of the Reliquiary seems to be a lot of work, but rest of the deck is fair. Game one he first turn goes Confidant via Mox Diamond, doesn´t get his sceond land for a while, wastes me some Posts, Titan hardcast get me there. Game 2 I Needled his Knights, he fetches Karakas und Maze before this. Mazed Titan every turn, I fetched ALL lands from my deck, he needled Eye of Ugin, I hardcast Kozilek, he bounced it with Karakas every turn...long grindy game, Bojuka Bog made Knights small, 2 Titans and a Trinket attacked for the win.

4-0, 8:1

Overall, liked this list a lot and would not change much.

[Davek]

I have a couple of sideboard questions for the other experienced pilots here. For my combo hate, I would rather not fill 80% of the board with counterspells (Force, Swan Song, Flusterstorm, Mindbreak Trap). Instead, I think I am going to keep half of it to fight combo and the other half for difficult but winnable matchups and just hope I don't run into too many combo decks. For a 7-8 card combo hate bunch, is there any merit to running some sphere effects? Against the storm builds, for example, I have found that the opponent will usually Duress/Cabal Therapy away your counters in hand. Ideally you want a Top in play with a counter on top of the deck, but that's not always easy to do. Sometimes I feel like dropping a Sphere of Resistance proactively is more problematic for them, fits our theme of playing to the battlefield, and also is better against hate like Silence and Xantid Swarm. Kurt Spiess's Lands build went heavy on sphere effects and it seemed to work fine for him. Granted, he had faster early mana and the mana denial of lands, but I think it is still worth a thought. I have turned away from Chalice of the Void for being anti-synergistic with the deck, and Trinisphere at 3 mana might be too slow. Does anyone have experience or thoughts on Sphere of Resistance? Lord Seth gave a good run-down of the most potential combo decks one might face. The most problematic matchups are clearly the decks that win without creatures, namely ANT, TES, High Tide and Omniscience. Seems like Sphere would be good against those, with some Swan Songs to supplement?

I've tested Sphere of Resistance quite recently and dropped the idea for a number of reasons. I know it may sound appealing, but truth is that's a card a bit too unrelyable for us to fight any combo deck. Even if we exclude the possibility that if you are on the draw you risk not to have even the occasion to play it, our main problem with that delaying hate is that we're terribly slow at killing and i guarantee you, a single sphere wont save you long from a couple of thresholded Cabal Rituals or a Gaea's Cradle. The main difference with lands.deck is that they run a quicker combo too (Thespian's Stage + Dark Depths), so they hopefully need to slow combo decks 2-3 turns more in order to assemble it and strike. Our plan is a totally different one, for we have to cumulate a consistent number of lands before playing our menaces and that's why i fear the Sphere plan doesn't really suit us.
Chalice, on the other hand, is a totally different beast. It will stop the chosen cmc cards at any step of the game, meaning that if set at 0 or at 2 (i never had the heart to set it at 1 honestly) it will nerf those spells forever, totally uncaring the monstrous amounts of mana one may have.
Also, run Force of Wills, for they are too good not to. I usually side them in against Death and Taxes too, for they can save you from Armageddon/Cataclysm while not giving your opponent an additional, evasive beater (see Swan Song)

[venice]

Won a small tournament yesterday in Darmstadt, Germany.

Play this deck for the first time and liked it a lot!
My list is far away from being perfect, but worked very well for me. Oracles and Trinkets were MVPs, give you so much action against late-game and mid-game decks.

Actually, I own only one Candelabra...but he was a nice have when I drawed him and not missed when not.


Team N!´s "D Generation X"

// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [BD] Island (3)
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [OD] Forest (4)


// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (aka Tripe H)
4 [M11] Primeval Titan (aka the Klique)
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth (aka Shawn Michaels)
2 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya


// Spells
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [OD] Moment's Peace


// Sideboard
SB: 3 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [MR] Oblivion Stone
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives


Luckily, I did the best what the deck can do - dodge storm decks...damn, 10 sideboard slots wasted for this tournament...I like the idea of Sphere of Resistance very much and will try this.


round 1: RW Painter
I was a little bid sad...painter is MY deck, I played it since 5 years, and never played a mirror match...this would have been my chance...he Blood Mooned every game, but Forest / Vesuva let me hardcast Titans and go beatdown, and game 3 Oblivion Stone trade 7 to 2. Nice to know how to play against painter. He tried to Blast my Posts several times (Painter naming blue), but I was able to repeal the Painter in response. Nice.

1-0, 2:1

round 2: UR Delver
Two very straight games, he could not do much about the fatties. Game 2 his next draw would have been price of progress, just to late...Before that, he had Blood Moon (again)...but I had enough lands to hardcast Emrakul with all the Mountains...

2-0, 4:1

round 3: BUG Delver
Game 1 he had first turn delver, second turn flip, beat me down to five. I didn´t get over three lands the first turns, unable to do a lot, baited some dazes. He get Goyf, I try to play Show and Tell, it resolves, Primeval Titan into 2 Glimmerposts, back to life. Repeal his flipped Delver, next turn attack with Titan, fetching Chasm. He attacked in Chams, read that card and scooped. Game 2 was turn 5 Show and Tell into Emrakul, not much action from him.

3-0, 6:1

round 4: 4 Color Loam

Seems a good matchup for me. Life, Wasteland and Knight of the Reliquiary seems to be a lot of work, but rest of the deck is fair. Game one he first turn goes Confidant via Mox Diamond, doesn´t get his sceond land for a while, wastes me some Posts, Titan hardcast get me there. Game 2 I Needled his Knights, he fetches Karakas und Maze before this. Mazed Titan every turn, I fetched ALL lands from my deck, he needled Eye of Ugin, I hardcast Kozilek, he bounced it with Karakas every turn...long grindy game, Bojuka Bog made Knights small, 2 Titans and a Trinket attacked for the win.

4-0, 8:1

Overall, liked this list a lot and would not change much.

Congrats Jens! :smile: Was nice to see you doing so well with the deck yesterday! Now I am even more looking forward to play it soon! Maybe we should plan on some testing sessions!

[Togores]

I have a couple of sideboard questions for the other experienced pilots here. For my combo hate, I would rather not fill 80% of the board with counterspells (Force, Swan Song, Flusterstorm, Mindbreak Trap). Instead, I think I am going to keep half of it to fight combo and the other half for difficult but winnable matchups and just hope I don't run into too many combo decks. For a 7-8 card combo hate bunch, is there any merit to running some sphere effects? Against the storm builds, for example, I have found that the opponent will usually Duress/Cabal Therapy away your counters in hand. Ideally you want a Top in play with a counter on top of the deck, but that's not always easy to do. Sometimes I feel like dropping a Sphere of Resistance proactively is more problematic for them, fits our theme of playing to the battlefield, and also is better against hate like Silence and Xantid Swarm. Kurt Spiess's Lands build went heavy on sphere effects and it seemed to work fine for him. Granted, he had faster early mana and the mana denial of lands, but I think it is still worth a thought. I have turned away from Chalice of the Void for being anti-synergistic with the deck, and Trinisphere at 3 mana might be too slow. Does anyone have experience or thoughts on Sphere of Resistance? Lord Seth gave a good run-down of the most potential combo decks one might face. The most problematic matchups are clearly the decks that win without creatures, namely ANT, TES, High Tide and Omniscience. Seems like Sphere would be good against those, with some Swan Songs to supplement?

Another area of my sideboard I'm looking to shore up is 2-3 slots to hate both Elves and Death and Taxes. I used to run Cursed Totem, which is great against Elves, but only has minimal effect on what D&T is trying to do. There is also Oblivion Stone, but that is probably too slow against both decks. A while back, I remember people on here discussing Gut Shot against both of those builds. Against Elves, it can hit Wirewood Symbiote and Heritage Druid, both important parts to their combo. Against D&T, it kills a slew of creatures (Revoker, Thalia, Mindcensor, Flickerwisp, Mangara), so long as there is no Mother of Runes in play. If anyone has advice on Gut Shot, I would like to know because I am seriously considering it. Or any other cards, because I am really looking to have some more answers to these two decks, especially Death and Taxes.

By the way, I caved in and finally bought the 12Post build on MODO a few weeks ago (under the same name as here). Started playing the mono green build, then felt handicapped without the blue. Now I am trying to solve the U/G sideboard. So if you play online, you might see me playing this on there.



Yes, spheres on the draw are just to slow. And gut shot is also not so good, I tested it (also to kill xantid swarm) and it was really weak, if you wanna play gut shot play explosives over it. Kills all elves, all mana artifacts, all goblin tokens, xantid swarm, the guy you wannta not havint to pay for thalia. and so. I think the best vs storm are this card (also being good vs others)
Swansong
revoker
mindbreak
fow
fluster
explosives
gleen elendra (tested this a lot in the UG build and if I land it I win 99%)

[slayjay]

Congrats Jens! :smile: Was nice to see you doing so well with the deck yesterday! Now I am even more looking forward to play it soon! Maybe we should plan on some testing sessions!

Thanks, christopher! We should keep that in mind. But my usual testing is in torunaments like yesterday :D

[gmantle31]

Hello Eldrazi lovers!

I will start my first post in this thead with the following disclaimer:
I am not an experienced 12 post player, by far, so I apologize if my proposition seems too bad in the eyes of other experienced players here. Also, English is not my primary langage, so please forgive me for that!

I have been playing the UG version of the deck for just a few weeks now, and I was wondering whether a RG version would work. I like the RUG version of Rock Lee a lot for the removal spells it provides, but the mana base is kind of shaky. So I started to think about dropping all the blue spells. Of course, this might make us more vulnerable to Combo decks because the sideboard would have fewer options to offer.

Here is my current RG "punishing post" list (I provide some comments below the list):

Lands (26)
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

Creatures (6)
1 Emrakul
1 Kozilek
4 Primeval Titans

Other Spells (28)
3 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Punishing Fire
3 Moment's Peace
4 Crop Rotation
2 Sneak Attack
3 Exploration Map
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pithing Needle
2 Candelabra of Tawnos

Sideboard (15)
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroclasm
2 Choke
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
4 Mindbreak Trap

I was not satisfied with the Repeals in the UG version, because they are just temporary answers to opponent's creatures. Punishing Fire and Bonfire of the Damned are really good control cards and they deal permanently with opposing creatures. They can also provide some reach when needed (with a Candelabra it is not uncommon to be able to kill opponent with a 15+ damage Bonfire). Also, I don't find Brainstorm so great in this deck. And the last blue spell, Show & Tell, can be replaced by Sneak Attack (I find it insane to be able to fetch 4 lands in a single turn when sneaking' in a Titan).

The sideboard still needs a lot of work to be able to compete with Combo decks. The 2 Pyroclasm and the 2 Choke could be replaced by 4 Phyrexian Revoker for example. Krosan Grip is very important because we don't have ways to get rid of artifacts or enchantments main deck (the Repeals are gone).

So far, I have been testing versus Death & Taxes and RUG delver. I think our matchup improves vs. these 2 decks compared to the UG version of 12 post. I haven't tested versus combo decks yet.

What do you guys think about it? Do you see any key cards I missed either in Green or Red? How could we build a better sideboard especially to fight against Combo?

[edk]

I like the idea. But with do you really need 3 Moment's Peace in the deck ? You already have 7 blasts to handle opponents creatures.

Also I would prefer to play GSZ over Sneak Attack (adding 1/2 Oracle of Mul Daya in the list).

Don't you miss Ulamog ?

[Togores]

@slayjay you joust bought a foil crop rotation at mkm from me.
Enjoy it and crop your posts (:
Hahahaha

[slayjay]

@slayjay you joust bought a foil crop rotation at mkm from me.
Enjoy it and crop your posts (:
Hahahaha


Hahaha nice one :-)
Thanks, I had to pimp this deck after yesterday´s victory.

[203995014]

I have been playing the UG version of the deck for just a few weeks now, and I was wondering whether a RG version would work. I like the RUG version of Rock Lee a lot for the removal spells it provides, but the mana base is kind of shaky. So I started to think about dropping all the blue spells. Of course, this might make us more vulnerable to Combo decks because the sideboard would have fewer options to offer.

The real reason why blue is played is because of Brainstorm Show and tell and Repeal. Being able to play counters is just icing on the cake. They are far too powerful to not have.

I was not satisfied with the Repeals in the UG version, because they are just temporary answers to opponent's creatures. Punishing Fire and Bonfire of the Damned are really good control cards and they deal permanently with opposing creatures. They can also provide some reach when needed (with a Candelabra it is not uncommon to be able to kill opponent with a 15+ damage Bonfire). Also, I don't find Brainstorm so great in this deck. And the last blue spell, Show & Tell, can be replaced by Sneak Attack (I find it insane to be able to fetch 4 lands in a single turn when sneaking' in a Titan).

If you're not satisfied with Repeal that means you're playing the deck wrong. If you don't find Brainstorm good in the deck you're doing something REALLY wrong. Drawing a card and gaining 1-2 turns should be sufficient time gained to ramp into an eldrazi. I don't know how you could not like brainstorm, it's one of the best cards in the deck. Punishing Fire and Bonfire of the Damned are good no doubt in that, however I honestly can't agree with your idea on those cards. Sneak Attack would be okay but there are multiple situations where Show and Tell would be straight up better. For example, against moon decks Sneak Attack is great but when you sneak in a Primeval Titan with Blood Moon out it really doesn't do anything. Being 5 mana to put something into play also matters against aggro decks such as Elves or Goblins where Show and Tell would be better. There are also cases where you really need the Primeval Titan to stay with cards like Glacial Chasm and such. I could go on for a long time but I hope you get the idea.

The sideboard still needs a lot of work to be able to compete with Combo decks. The 2 Pyroclasm and the 2 Choke could be replaced by 4 Phyrexian Revoker for example. Krosan Grip is very important because we don't have ways to get rid of artifacts or enchantments main deck (the Repeals are gone).

So far, I have been testing versus Death & Taxes and RUG delver. I think our matchup improves vs. these 2 decks compared to the UG version of 12 post. I haven't tested versus combo decks yet.

Those decks are cake walks. You're going to win whichever version you use anyway. I feel like adding red is just rolling over the good matchups more and aren't actually doing much to improve bad matchups, something Blue does and so much more. It may be good on a budget but if you really want a fully optimized list, I would strongly suggest using blue and getting better with it. You can't just pick up 12-post and be good at it

What do you guys think about it? Do you see any key cards I missed either in Green or Red? How could we build a better sideboard especially to fight against Combo?

Replies in red.

[gmantle31]

@edk

Thank you for your comments.
I take your argument about Moment's Peace, it could be replaced by something else. At one point, I was considering playing Ancient Stirrings instead.
Why would you prefer GSZ over Sneak Attack? Fetching 4 lands in the same turn with a Titan is just so huge...
I have never tried Oracle of Mul Daya since I never played the mono green version of the deck. I will test it!
I could replace one Moment's Peace with Ulamog, which would be a solution to permanents other than creatures (something I cannot handle since Repeal is out of the deck).

[Michael Keller]

How do you figure a highly-saturated tempo strategy like RUG is a cakewalk? Taxing counters and the ability to stunt the deck's primary focus of advancing the board state with cards like Wasteland and Stifle can throw opening draws out of whack and force the Post player to invest their resources to find answers as opposed to just winning.

I wouldn't say it's a "cake walk"; that seems egregious and superficial at best to dishonor a potentially strong pilot with such a powerful archetype. It's really not hard to throw this deck off its resources early and repurpose lines of play while taking shots of five to eight damage a turn - discounting burn.

I get there are virtual "Time Walks" in the deck, but still. This isn't a ramp deck, and that can sometimes not work to the pilot's advantage against an archetype tailored to thoroughly strip you of your resources.

[Megadeus]

@edk

Thank you for your comments.
I take your argument about Moment's Peace, it could be replaced by something else. At one point, I was considering playing Ancient Stirrings instead.
Why would you prefer GSZ over Sneak Attack? Fetching 4 lands in the same turn with a Titan is just so huge...
I have never tried Oracle of Mul Daya since I never played the mono green version of the deck. I will test it!
I could replace one Moment's Peace with Ulamog, which would be a solution to permanents other than creatures (something I cannot handle since Repeal is out of the deck).

At what point would you play Show and Tell and Sneak Attack, and not just be better off playing Sneak and Show?

[TimHarding]

How do you figure a highly-saturated tempo strategy like RUG is a cakewalk? Taxing counters and the ability to stunt the deck's primary focus of advancing the board state with cards like Wasteland and Stifle can throw opening draws out of whack and force the Post player to invest their resources to find answers as opposed to just winning.

I wouldn't say it's a "cake walk"; that seems egregious and superficial at best to dishonor a potentially strong pilot with such a powerful archetype. It's really not hard to throw this deck off its resources early and repurpose lines of play while taking shots of five to eight damage a turn - discounting burn.

I get there are virtual "Time Walks" in the deck, but still. This isn't a ramp deck, and that can sometimes not work to the pilot's advantage against an archetype tailored to thoroughly strip you of your resources.

IMO behind stoneforge, RuG is the easiest matchup. You've just got to know what they're trying to do. Bog and repeal are very cheap ways to ruin their offense. Those running EE have it even worse. And think, what card MD is actually bad in the MU, to me only needle comes to mind. Everything else either promotes mana production, wins games, or is an easy answer - what's not to like? Rug also hates SDT. It requires testing but I have a very easy time, even against full time delver players.

[Zotmaster]

IMO behind stoneforge, RuG is the easiest matchup. You've just got to know what they're trying to do. Bog and repeal are very cheap ways to ruin their offense. Those running EE have it even worse. And think, what card MD is actually bad in the MU, to me only needle comes to mind. Everything else either promotes mana production, wins games, or is an easy answer - what's not to like? Rug also hates SDT. It requires testing but I have a very easy time, even against full time delver players.

Pithing Needle still shuts off Wasteland, which is one-half of their resource denial strategy. I like fetches the least against RUG since Stifle compels me to play much more carefully.

[TimHarding]

Pithing Needle still shuts off Wasteland, which is one-half of their resource denial strategy. I like fetches the least against RUG since Stifle compels me to play much more carefully.

Yeah, but they only hit 4 cards in their whole deck, which is pretty weak. I side them out for flusterstorm or something usually. I prefer to steer the game into baiting them into crop response on waste: either you win(at the added cost of their land drop) or they spend a counter, which further exposes them to SnT and other bombs.

[Hopo]

How do you figure a highly-saturated tempo strategy like RUG is a cakewalk? Taxing counters and the ability to stunt the deck's primary focus of advancing the board state with cards like Wasteland and Stifle can throw opening draws out of whack and force the Post player to invest their resources to find answers as opposed to just winning.

I wouldn't say it's a "cake walk"; that seems egregious and superficial at best to dishonor a potentially strong pilot with such a powerful archetype. It's really not hard to throw this deck off its resources early and repurpose lines of play while taking shots of five to eight damage a turn - discounting burn.

I get there are virtual "Time Walks" in the deck, but still. This isn't a ramp deck, and that can sometimes not work to the pilot's advantage against an archetype tailored to thoroughly strip you of your resources.

It's not a cakewalk like miracles, but when you grab the deck you will start to notice that you have some very powerful cards against delver decks: Show and Tell into anything as well as Repeal and the Needles to let you build the board. Lifegain and Chasm are no blanks either. Also, if you ever get to 2-for-1 your opponent with a sweeper, it's hard for them to recover. I consider myself the favorite against delver decks that don't play Price of Progress.

[TimHarding]

Usually struggles with rug delver are a sign of piloting post like a combo deck, not control.

[winglerw28]

Usually struggles with rug delver are a sign of piloting post like a combo deck, not control.

I feel as though this is somewhat true. I feel as though the RUG matchup is closer than indicated here though. A good RUG pilot can definitely pull through, but the match-up feels pretty close to 55/45 in Post's favor for me. A huge thing in the RUG matchup is simply knowing when to mulligan correctly so you aren't punished by their wastelands or hyper-aggressive starts. Show and Tell is very strong against them, and just playing Glimmerposts can be enough a lot of the time.

[Mockingbird]

So a Snow-Post deck made Top 16 at Star City Games Vegas Open: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69125

[Lord Seth]

So a Snow-Post deck made Top 16 at Star City Games Vegas Open: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69125Hey, it's the same guy who got that Top 8 with the Mono-Green Cloudpost deck a few months ago.

[Barbed Blightning]

So a Snow-Post deck made Top 16 at Star City Games Vegas Open: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69125
why Into the North over Nature's Lore?

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

[Postman]

Into the North fetches Dark Depths

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9300 mit Tapatalk

[Darkenslight]

why Into the North over Nature's Lore?

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

This:


Into the North fetches Dark Depths

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9300 mit Tapatalk

I watched the feature match against the Burn list, and the amusing PoP play into Crop for Chasm. That was sort-of-good play by Kassani.

[fdiv_bug]

why Into the North over Nature's Lore?

I found myself thinking, "Why Into the North over Sylvan Scrying," more than Nature's Lore.

Obviously Into the North puts it straight onto the battlefield, and since Dark Depths doesn't generate mana anyway it coming in tapped doesn't really matter, so ItN is clearly great for Dark Depths, but wouldn't the ability to grab something other than either DD or a Snow-Covered Forest be more worthwhile? I could easily see using it to grab Eye of Ugin so you can tutor up your win condition; the Thespian's Stage if you've managed to naturally draw the Depths; the Tabernacle in creature-heavy, post-board games... it just seems like it would be more versatile overall, but I've never played the deck so I may not know what I'm talking about. :smile:

[Togores]

U already have map, crop and titan. Why u need more? This ramps. Thats better.

[fdiv_bug]

This ramps. Thats better.

Yeah, that is a fair point.

[Lord Seth]

I think they did a deck tech of some sort on him, but not sure where it is; anyone happen to know where in the stream it happened, if it did?

[NicFit]

Hey folks, long time follower here.

I took down a 26 people local tournament on saturday with basically Lee´s list -1 Candelabra +1 Vesuva.
Matchups were:
Grixis Tempo 1-1-1
Miracles 2-0
Affinity 2-0
SneakShow 2-0 (lived the dream of putting a Kozilek into his show and tell with him at 4 permanents ! )
DarkMaverick 2-1

I lost every die roll but it felt pretty good to be on the draw all day^^ except against maverick.
I barely got to use the Maps. Think I used them only one or two times over 12 Games and was wondering if there could be any sort of replacement or if they are just too fundamental ?!

Greetings

[Hencules]

I think they did a deck tech of some sort on him, but not sure where it is; anyone happen to know where in the stream it happened, if it did?

Here it is.

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_cloudpost_with_john_.html

Interesting to see he changed so little (almost nothing, right?) from his last showing. It just doesn't feel like lelyline of sanctity should be the straw you want to grasp against combo decks, they'll just get rid of it.

On another note, has anyone been toying with black? The black splash provides discard and pernicious deed: answers to the fair decks and the unfair decks. I'm looking into that.

[Darkenslight]

Here it is.

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_cloudpost_with_john_.html

Interesting to see he changed so little (almost nothing, right?) from his last showing. It just doesn't feel like lelyline of sanctity should be the straw you want to grasp against combo decks, they'll just get rid of it.

On another note, has anyone been toying with black? The black splash provides discard and pernicious deed: answers to the fair decks and the unfair decks. I'm looking into that.

There's actually a lot of heat for combo decks in his SB; between Thorn, Leyline, Teeg and RiP, most combo decks can beat one of those, maybe two. But Thorn and Leyline or Teeg and RiP? Most of the combo decks can't actually beat that, outside of Elves! which suffers from the sweeper problem.

[lordofthepit]

I know that Oblivion Stone and All is Dust have been in previous versions of this deck. Any thoughts on the "new" O-Stone?

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/59/977/635393370888116670.png

Seems slower than the alternatives, but the effect is quite powerful.

[Elfkid]

I know that Oblivion Stone and All is Dust have been in previous versions of this deck. Any thoughts on the "new" O-Stone?

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/59/977/635393370888116670.png

Seems slower than the alternatives, but the effect is quite powerful.


I dont like too much, this stone eats the ulamog and the emrakul,(And u cant search with eye the kul again :( ) and u cant do the trick (Attack with emrakul, anniquitalor trigger on the stack and crack the stone to destroy all)

I prefer the O-stone :)

[Hopo]

I know that Oblivion Stone and All is Dust have been in previous versions of this deck. Any thoughts on the "new" O-Stone?

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/59/977/635393370888116670.png

Seems slower than the alternatives, but the effect is quite powerful.

If you play Oblivion Stone, you should at least think about switching to this. The one and only reason being Abrupt Decay.

[Elfkid]

Yep, but u cant protect you pithing, titans etc... Its not bad, but its diferent ^^

[Hopo]

Yep, but u cant protect you pithing, titans etc... Its not bad, but its diferent ^^

Generally that is not what you expect from your sweeper. It's not why you should choose Oblivion Stone in the first place.

[Hencules]

If you play Oblivion Stone, you should at least think about switching to this. The one and only reason being Abrupt Decay.

Not get Decayed is awesome. Furthermore I rarely sweep once I already have an Eldrazi on the board. They are basically sweepers themselves.

[endqwerty]

Generally that is not what you expect from your sweeper. It's not why you should choose Oblivion Stone in the first place.

Why do we chose o-stone? I don't have any because of the reason that I want my pithing needles to remain safe. I'm probably missing obvious reasons, so if someone wouldn't mind explaining. Thanks.

[Togores]

I wrote an article abou the puishing post list a friend and me play here in spain (starting with rocks list). Its spanish but google translate might help :D


http://winandin.es/blog/punishing-post-por-rodrigo-togores/

[TimHarding]

I wrote an article abou the puishing post list a friend and me play here in spain (starting with rocks list). Its spanish but google translate might help :D


http://winandin.es/blog/punishing-post-por-rodrigo-togores/

That's a great primer!

[fdiv_bug]

I wrote an article abou the puishing post list a friend and me play here in spain (starting with rocks list). Its spanish but google translate might help :D


http://winandin.es/blog/punishing-post-por-rodrigo-togores/

Thank you for writing and sharing this! I just put the Punishing Fire variant together last night, and I'm really enjoying it, so having some additional insight into how to best play the deck will be very valuable to me.

The Spanish -> English translated version (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://winandin.es/blog/punishing-post-por-rodrigo-togores/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://winandin.es/blog/punishing-post-por-rodrigo-togores/%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DhmG%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26channel%3Dfflb%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D641) is perfectly readable, plus you get gems like the Spanish, "Esto se resume a maná infinito, tocinos infinitos, destrucción infinita y turnos infinitos," being translated to, "This is summarized infinite mana, infinite bacon, endless destruction and infinite turns." I'll play any deck that promises infinite bacon, especially if the deck also gives me infinite turns in which to eat it! :laugh:

[Bobmans]

Viewed from a financial perspective, would there be a substitute for Candelabra of Tawnos?

[fdiv_bug]

Viewed from a financial perspective, would there be a substitute for Candelabra of Tawnos?

Unfortunately I don't think there is, though I picked up a Magus of the Candelabra for well under a dollar, and I do get great joy out of sarcastically shouting, "IT DOES THE SAME THING," when people mock me for it, but I really only use it during testing as a Candelabra proxy. The list that I've been working from (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14004&iddeck=103030) only uses one, not that it makes it much better. :-\

For an event where I cared about having the right cards and couldn't borrow at least one Candelabra, I'm thinking I might substitute Exploration in its place, but I would also be open to other suggestions.

[HammafistRoob]

Does that question really need to pop up every other page? Basically all the alternatives aren't playable so you play without candles. It's still viable but you lose access to alternate lines and also a little explosiveness.

[Togores]

Thank you for writing and sharing this! I just put the Punishing Fire variant together last night, and I'm really enjoying it, so having some additional insight into how to best play the deck will be very valuable to me.

The Spanish -> English translated version (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://winandin.es/blog/punishing-post-por-rodrigo-togores/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://winandin.es/blog/punishing-post-por-rodrigo-togores/%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DhmG%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26channel%3Dfflb%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D641) is perfectly readable, plus you get gems like the Spanish, "Esto se resume a maná infinito, tocinos infinitos, destrucción infinita y turnos infinitos," being translated to, "This is summarized infinite mana, infinite bacon, endless destruction and infinite turns." I'll play any deck that promises infinite bacon, especially if the deck also gives me infinite turns in which to eat it! :laugh:

Bacon in spanish is tocinos that more or less means big pigs also I was meaning huge monsters :D

[Hencules]

Viewed from a financial perspective, would there be a substitute for Candelabra of Tawnos?

Kassari's mono g version doesn't play Candelabra. There is a tabernacle in that list, though.

[Mockingbird]

Kassari's mono g version doesn't play Candelabra. There is a tabernacle in that list, though.

And with Death and Taxes (and beat down decks in general) in flux in popularity, I've been considering testing whether or not Tabernacle should go back into the sideboard for UG Post lists as well. Right now I'm playing around with Snow-Post again though.


By the way, the most Budget friendly Cloudpost deck that I am aware of is probably MUD-Post, which can be found in the MUD thread. I haven't done the math for building a Snow-Post yet, but an entire competitive MUD-Post deck should probably cost between $800-$1000, which is significantly cheaper than a fully equipped UG Turbo Eldrazi/12-Post or Punishing RUG-Post. While Candelabra of Tawnos can be skimped on, don't.

[TimHarding]

Glad to see that everyone is enjoying summer! Nothing huge to report but I've been performing well at weekly, IQs with this:

[MD]
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Bajouka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
2 Candelabra of Townos
2 Pithing Needle
4 Repeal
2 Moment's Peace
3 Show and Tell

[SB]
4 Swan Song
1 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Krosan Grip
1 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm

I haven't had to change much. Over performers lately have been Basic Lands, Force of Will, Kozilek, Candelabra, and Moment's Peace.

The snow covers aim to force the opponent to respect dark depths, even though I won't play it or into the north lol. I've had a few people say they didn't shuffle away StP or Karakas after seeing the snow basic.

Also, status:
http://s1274.photobucket.com/user/Tim_Harding/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsb9ebaf90.jpg.html

[venice]

Hey Guys!

I played my 1st tournament with this deck last week. 29 people showed up, thus we had 5 rounds to play. I finished 6th with a 3-1-1 record earning me 1 Flusterstorm + 1 DRS. :smile:

I played against the following MUs:

Round 1: Some Esper Rogue Deck feat. Spellstutters, DRS, Cliques, Mindcensor (how annoying is THIS card, please?!), Daze, Thoughtseize etc. but no FoW. I won 2:1 beating like 6 Mindcensor in 3 games. Man, that card is a real beating agaist us.

Round 2: TES, I manage to win both games. First game I start with Glimmerpost, my opponent goes for the Tendrils kill on turn 2 but misses that I am at 21 life (he storms for 10 only). So I fall down to one and S&T into Titan into Lifegain+Bojuka Bog seals the deal. G2 he goes for 16 Goblins on turn2 I have the S&T => Titan again and he can´t handle that. Pretty lucky. :wink:

Round 3: Omnishow UB (Black for Thoughtseize only) I loose in 3 Games. Honestly I feel, that this is a really tough MU for us. I only managed to win G2 because I had Krosan Grip in response to his Enter the Infinite. He show and telled Omniscience, me Primeval Titan. Since he couldn´t do anything more on his turn without Omni in play; i was able to get infinite Emrakuls thanks to Primeval Titan on my turn. G3 he has more Countermagic than I do so 1-2.

Round 4: Nic Fit! THAT was fun!! :cool: 2-0

Round 5: Jund 1-1-1 G1 was really long and grindy with me stabilizing at low life thanks to Chasm. G2 I loose to quick beatings backed up by several discard and Wastelands. Sadly I lack one turn to finish him in G3 because I only manage to get Emrakul into play on my last extra turn...

In conclusion, I have to say the deck is so much fun to play, since you have access to so many broken plays. My list was the same that Jeremiah Top8ed Somerset with.

I also did lots of testing against Team America in the last couple of days and have to admit, I am loosing pretty hard to that deck. I don´t know if or what I am doing wrong but the combination of Hymn, Wasteland, Daze/Pierce/FoW + quick beats is a really tough combination to get through.
What are your experiences regarding that MU?

My current list:

[Maindeck]

4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
2 Island
2 Forest
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Eye of Ugin

1 Emrakul
1 Kozilek
1 Ulamog
4 Primeval Titan

3 Show and Tell
4 Brainstorm
4 Repeal

3 Crop Rotation
3 Moment´s Peace

2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Expedititon Map
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei´s Divining Top

[SB]

4 Swan Song
3 Flusterstorm
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Obstinate Baloth / FoW

Also, Tim: nice deck!! :smile:

I´ll try to post a pic of mine as well next days! :wink:

[venice]

There you go! :smile:

http://s1276.photobucket.com/user/venice2503/media/IMG_2769_zps53d92b28.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

[sauce]

I also did lots of testing against Team America in the last couple of days ad have to admit, I am loosing pretty hard to that deck. I don´t know if or what I am doing wrong but the combination of Hymn, Wasteland, Daze/Pierce/FoW + quick beats is a really tough combination to get through.
What are your experiences regarding that MU?



It is the worst matchup out of fair decks. The combination of Goyf, Wasteland, Daze and Hymn is very difficult to beat. I think your best shot is a quick S&T into Primeval w/ a Dryad Arbor or Khalni Garden fetch.
EDIT: If opponent does not put pressure on, you obviously can win by bobbing and weaving w/ Brainstorm, SDT, Crop rotation, etc.

[venice]

It is the worst matchup out of fair decks. The combination of Goyf, Wasteland, Daze and Hymn is very difficult to beat. I think your best shot is a quick S&T into Primeval w/ a Dryad Arbor or Khalni Garden fetch.
EDIT: If opponent does not put pressure on, you obviously can win by bobbing and weaving w/ Brainstorm, SDT, Crop rotation, etc.

Yes, this is exactly my impression as well.

I just did some testing with Togores Punishing Post list and so far it feels definitely stronger against BUG as the straight UG list.

[Togores]

Yeah, that the plan to beat them. punishing fire is really good and with him you only have to care about tarmos. Thats the reason I wuld love to include 2 explosives. But there is no card I wanna cut >.<

[sauce]

well, the moment's peace are pseudo explosives and are decent vs bug. I say decent, not great because DRS does often eat the 2nd half or Hymn eats the 1st half.

[TimHarding]

well, the moment's peace are pseudo explosives and are decent vs bug. I say decent, not great because DRS does often eat the 2nd half or Hymn eats the 1st half.

This is true. Also, decks that play hymn and wasteland are going to get free wins here and there. But if you Really test this matchup (and recognize that it doesn't play like any other daze deck) you can get comfortable with it. If it's well represented in your meta, instead of bringing on a whole additional color for PFire (though it's effective), you can put in a few on color cards which are great against bug, mainly GSZ, explosives, and Oracle of Mul-Daya(someone earlier in the thread dropped SnT for these). SnT has a very narrow window against BUG, and Candle is Narrow because it turns on decay. As such I side out up to all of them for EE and Some copies of flusterstorm. Flusterstorm might seem counter intuitive, but I've realized that stopping that t2 hymn or forcing a crop through in this MU decides the game. A lot of my friends play bug and this has even working without warping my deck. I'd consider mulling to SDT in this MU, it is that important.

[venice]

Yeah, that the plan to beat them. punishing fire is really good and with him you only have to care about tarmos. Thats the reason I wuld love to include 2 explosives. But there is no card I wanna cut >.<

Starting with your list I did -1 Crop Rotation, -1 Expedition Map, +2 Moment´s Peace. I prefer Moment´s Peace over EE since it stops any variety of creatures.

Btw, I think I bought 4 foil Obstinate Baloth from you. :wink:

[Togores]

I like explosives more cause it gets rid of more cards like empty, counterbalance and so.


And yes, really possibe you did, I sold 4 last week, cause I upgraded mine of my modern decks to foil japanese :3


thanks

[Mamemoo]

What do you guys think about Eureka as the SnT replacement in the mono green version?

Mana cost: 2GG
Types: Sorcery
Card Text: Starting with you, each player may put a permanent card from his or her hand onto the battlefield. Repeat this process until no one puts a card onto the battlefield.

[sauce]

more expensive, more color restrictive and has no upside. if you put in a titan, there is rarely going to be a way you lose from that spot (barring decks that run emrakul/griselbrand/etc and you shouldnt be casting s&t vs them unless you got the soul read). eureka also has the downside of letting your opponents put in planeswalkers for free.

[sauce]

what do you guys sideboard in/out vs miracles? mainly curious if many of you keep S&T in as a "must counter" spell or sb it out.
do you board out all crop rotations or keep 1 in?
i noticed that games where you have no cloudpost (or way to get cloudpost) are usually losses.

[Mockingbird]

what do you guys sideboard in/out vs miracles? mainly curious if many of you keep S&T in as a "must counter" spell or sb it out.
do you board out all crop rotations or keep 1 in?
i noticed that games where you have no cloudpost (or way to get cloudpost) are usually losses.

Lately, Karn Liberated. Glen Elendra Archmage as well. And keep SnT in as a magnet+surprise Titan.

The no Cloudpost makes winning more difficult thing is because generally control decks have a difficult time dealing with decks that produce massive mana to cast massive anti-control creatures (which all the Eldrazi are in one form or another). If we can't produce that mana, then our overwhelming edge as a control deck with massive mana means that we have to win through a slog-fest, which while possible, is more difficult.

[Davek]

what do you guys sideboard in/out vs miracles? mainly curious if many of you keep S&T in as a "must counter" spell or sb it out.
do you board out all crop rotations or keep 1 in?
i noticed that games where you have no cloudpost (or way to get cloudpost) are usually losses.

I usually keep S&T in, unless i've seen something weird in g1, like a maindeck Rest in Peace that could mean Helm of obedience combo. I usually cut Bojuka Bog (i'm never going to use a crop rotation to instant-fetch for it to contrast a Snapcaster Mage), Moment's Peace and try to shave some cc1 mana cards, like the mentioned Crop rotation, just in case they have the annoying Counterbalance lock early in the game. I bring in Fows and sometimes big sweepers like All is Dust. Please note that i run a singleton Cavern of Souls, which usually let you win the game even if you do not see any Cloudpost but "fair" lands only.

[sauce]

I usually keep S&T in, unless i've seen something weird in g1, like a maindeck Rest in Peace that could mean Helm of obedience combo. I usually cut Bojuka Bog (i'm never going to use a crop rotation to instant-fetch for it to contrast a Snapcaster Mage), Moment's Peace and try to shave some cc1 mana cards, like the mentioned Crop rotation, just in case they have the annoying Counterbalance lock early in the game. I bring in Fows and sometimes big sweepers like All is Dust. Please note that i run a singleton Cavern of Souls, which usually let you win the game even if you do not see any Cloudpost but "fair" lands only.

I have been cutting all the Crop rotations to hedge for not only CB lock but also not to get blown out by FoW. Obviously you can keep some hands that are devoid of action (only lands) and have a Crop rotation so you may not mind getting "blown out" by FoW if they have nothing going but it's a dangerous proposition.

I also run Cavern, but you have to either draw it, have top in play and find it or draw Expedition map and have it resolve. Otherwise, maybe keeping 1-2 Crop rotations may not be completely wrong in sideboarded games?

The games I lose to miracles (post-board) are of this variety only:


I keep a 3 lander w/ Brainstorm or Top which finds me no more lands while they beat me down w/ Clique and FoW (and/or) CBTOP everything
I keep a no Cloudpost hand and do not draw a Cloudpost while they beat me down w/ CBTOP lock and Venser/Clique/FoW
I get killed by an early entreat (2-3 angels) while I sideboarded out my Glacial Chasm & Moment's Peace.


I've talked to a buddy who keeps Glacial chasm and Bog vs them as well as Crop rotation because he does not like sideboarding out lands. I take out Bog and Glacial chasm 100% of the time vs Miracles.
I've tried keeping in Moment's peace but it's bad and does not do enough as they can often times counter it w/ CB or Venser.

The biggest problem in that matchup is Venser (w/ Karakas) followed by Clique. Venser is by far the biggest offender and the scariest card. If they got Venser + Karakas going, you are not going to win unless they make a mistake.

[Davek]

I honestly never board out all crops neither Glacial Chasm, because their main way to win is as you said casting an early Entreat, and i like having some instant outs (i also run Engineered Explosives that can come in handy in these cases). Glacial Chasm is way harder to deal for them than Moment's Peace, because they usually have no ways/very few ways to get rid of it, so it gets the nod for me. Also, you can never know if they are on the Blood Moon/Back to Basics post-board plan, so crops stay here to tutor your basic lands and Vesuva to copy them.
They will probably throw in Pithing Needles too, but you can be sure they will never call Top with them unless totally desperate, so if you are short in choosing what to cut i would consider removing a map, because you usually have plenty of time to find the lands you need and is a cc1 card that falls prey to Counterbalance lock.

[venice]

I side the following vs Miracles:

-1 Bojuka Bog
-4 Moment´s Peace (yes, I play 4 MB right now :wink:)
-3 Crop Rotation

+4 Swan Song
+4 FoW

Alongside 2 Venser maindeck, having 8 hardcounters for early Entreats postboard has been serving me well so far. I like keeping the Glacial Chasm as well for the reasons Davek mentioned.

[TimHarding]

Miracles is no bye. Especially if you run into someone who can actually pilot control in legacy. By design, my sideboard hate is equally viable against Miracles as it is against combo:

4 Swan Song
1 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Krosan Grip
1 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm

Against Teir 1 Miracles (Entreat/Terminus/Flash Creatures):
-4 Crop Rotation, -2 Moment's Peace, -2 Candelabra
+2 Engineered Explosives, +2 Krosan Grip, +4 Force of Will

Teir 2 Gimmick Miracles (Helm, RIP, Enlightened Tutor, Blood Moon, Humility):
-4 Crop Rotation, -2 Moment's Peace, -2 Candelabra, 1 Glacial Chasm, -3 Show and Tell, -1 Bog
+2 Engineered Explosives, +2 Krosan Grip, +4 Force of Will, +4 Swan Song, +1 Pithing Needle

You can usually sniff out which angle they are pushing since game 1 lasts at least a few turns. I don't like siding out mana against long game control, and they usually cannot answer chasm, so lands stay. I like to cut 1 Cmcs, obviously crop. You don't really need candle speed, and 1 CMC is a liability. If they are really looking for Jace I might put a Needle in. SnT to get a Map into play has happened more than once, ha.
Against the Teir 2, SnT is a liability, and avoiding their 'combo' kill and sideboard hate gives swan song the nod. Needle for helm. Their plan is a little more front loaded so bog can be cut.

On this plan, miracles feels well contained by a mixture of these two ends of the spectrum.

[203995014]

I have a question regarding the use of Force of Will in the sideboard. Whenever I played it I found that I didn't have blue cards to exile to Force of Will as early as I should have against decks like Combo and such (TES is pretty popular in my meta). Should I be keeping Show and Tell in the mainboard to maximize the number of blue cards in the deck or should I even be using them at all? For reference this is my sideboard, total number of blue cards that could theoretically be pitched to Force of Will is 16 and I am considering replacing Flusterstorm with them.

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flusterstorm
4 Swan Song
2 Krosan grip
1 Show and Tell

[TimHarding]

I have a question regarding the use of Force of Will in the sideboard. Whenever I played it I found that I didn't have blue cards to exile to Force of Will as early as I should have against decks like Combo and such (TES is pretty popular in my meta). Should I be keeping Show and Tell in the mainboard to maximize the number of blue cards in the deck or should I even be using them at all? For reference this is my sideboard, total number of blue cards that could theoretically be pitched to Force of Will is 16 and I am considering replacing Flusterstorm with them.

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flusterstorm
4 Swan Song
2 Krosan grip
1 Show and Tell

I don't mind SnT too much against TES, but in cases where you want SnT out and FOW in (sneak, reanimator), 16 is too low (my personal MD min is 19). As such, I have 3 more blue cards that round it out: Flusterstorm, BEB, and Venser. MbT can also fill that early interaction need, and casting it for 4 isn't even bad, doesn't need blue count..

[Barook]

Any suggestions for a MonoG list that is especially tuned against Miracles? Since I'm aiming to use it against Miracle players in the Modo 2-man queue, I could pretty much disregard other match-ups.

Note that I want to keep it Monogreen for budget reasons, at least for now.

[TimHarding]

Any suggestions for a MonoG list that is especially tuned against Miracles? Since I'm aiming to use it against Miracle players in the Modo 2-man queue, I could pretty much disregard other match-ups.

Note that I want to keep it Monogreen for budget reasons, at least for now.

You're already a huge favorite in the MU. If you wanted to get crazy go multiple cavern of souls, full set of grip in SB. Maybe o-stone, and maybe some low cost way to deal with early angels. But moments peace and chasm should be enough. I think you've already achieved your goal with the deck choice. But caution, mono green is pretty soft to a real legacy format.

[nodahero]

I took the following to a weekly Legacy event and went 3-1. My only loss was due to personal stupidity.

7 Creatures
4 Prime Time
1 Emrakul
1 Kozilek
1 Ulamog

13 Instants
3 Repeal
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
2 Moment's Peace

5 Sorcerys
3 Show and Tell
2 Green Sun Zenith

10 Artifacts
4 Top
4 Needle
2 Maps

25 Land
4 UG Fetch
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Arbor
8 Post
2 Vesua
1 Chasm
1 Eye
1 Karkas
1 Bog
Plus 4 others I can't recall

Overall I like how the deck performed, however I constantly felt like I was struggling to find threats hence why I included the GSZ. Even with them though I wasn't overly satisfied. I am contemplating truning Punishing Post as a way to increase the threat density of the deck. Any thoughts?

[sauce]

How are you playing this deck? There should be no reason you are having trouble finding a threat between brainstorms, tops, crop rotations, eye of ugin, maps, etc.
What hands are you keeping?

[Barook]

You're already a huge favorite in the MU. If you wanted to get crazy go multiple cavern of souls, full set of grip in SB. Maybe o-stone, and maybe some low cost way to deal with early angels. But moments peace and chasm should be enough. I think you've already achieved your goal with the deck choice. But caution, mono green is pretty soft to a real legacy format.
This is a first, rough draw:

3 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Vesuva
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Windswept Heath
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Dark Depths
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Dryad Arbor

1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Expedition Map
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Oblivion Stone
4 Crop Rotation
3 Moment's Peace
2 Into the North
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 All Is Dust
3 Pithing Needle

Any input how to tune this list better to maximize the Miracles match-up?

- How good is Needle in this match-up? It can block SDT (which would also disable our SDT) and Jace. Should they be Krosan Grips instead? Mind you, this is an Anti-Miracle-only build.

- All is Dust and Oblivion Ring are quite pricey ticket-wise. How good is each one in the Miracle match-up?

- How many Moment's Peace should I run in the mainboard against Miracles? I guess Glacial Chasm should be kept as well to deal with early Angels.

- Is Oracle worth it in this match-up or should I remove it for something else?

Edit: I guess Boseiju, Who Shelters All isn't too shabby in the Miracles match-up, either.

[venice]

This is a first, rough draw:

3 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Vesuva
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Windswept Heath
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Dark Depths
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Dryad Arbor

1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Expedition Map
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Oblivion Stone
4 Crop Rotation
3 Moment's Peace
2 Into the North
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 All Is Dust
3 Pithing Needle

Any input how to tune this list better to maximize the Miracles match-up?

- How good is Needle in this match-up? It can block SDT (which would also disable our SDT) and Jace. Should they be Krosan Grips instead? Mind you, this is an Anti-Miracle-only build.

- All is Dust and Oblivion Ring are quite pricey ticket-wise. How good is each one in the Miracle match-up?

- How many Moment's Peace should I run in the mainboard against Miracles? I guess Glacial Chasm should be kept as well to deal with early Angels.

- Is Oracle worth it in this match-up or should I remove it for something else?

Edit: I guess Boseiju, Who Shelters All isn't too shabby in the Miracles match-up, either.


If you really want to build this to beat Miracles only, I would switch SDT for Sylvan Library so you can make full use of Pithing Needle. Furthermore, you can cut All is Dust and O-Stone, Into the North (you don´t need ramp against Miracles) and Moment´s Peace. I would suggest:

-4 SDT
-2 Into the North
-3 Moment´s Peace
-1 All is Dust
-1 O-Stone

+4 Sylvan Library
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Gaddock Teeg
+3 Krosan Grip
+1 Cavern of Souls

Switch one or more Forest for Savannah(s) to support hardcasting Gaddock Teeg.

Edit: Depths/ Stage also isn´t very good against Miracles, so maybe you wanna go even further and do -2 Stage+Depths +2 Gaddock Teeg. :tongue::cool:

[Barook]

Adding Teeg seems like a good call since it eats up their StPs for Primetime. Shutting down your own GSZ is bearable.

How many Cavern of Souls should be run, though? From my experience with D&T, I'm not exactly a huge fan of it in non-tribal decks, simply because you can get manascrewed more easily. Adding Teeg just makes the issue worse.

I don't know about completely cutting the SDT. It's colorless, can sort cards on demand and can be shuffled away in multiples while Sylvan Library in multiples is bad. What about a 2/2 split and something else instead (e.g. a 4th Grip)? Or maybe a 3/2 split?

As for the DD combo, you're most likely right. Although I would prefer to add a third Teeg/1 Boseiju. Too many copies doesn't seem too great without Brainstorm.

Glacial Chasm as tutor target and 1 Oracle of Mul Daya are fine since you don't complain about them?

[venice]

Adding Teeg seems like a good call since it eats up their StPs for Primetime. Shutting down your own GSZ is bearable.

How many Cavern of Souls should be run, though? From my experience with D&T, I'm not exactly a huge fan of it in non-tribal decks, simply because you can get manascrewed more easily. Adding Teeg just makes the issue worse.

I don't know about completely cutting the SDT. It's colorless, can sort cards on demand and can be shuffled away in multiples while Sylvan Library in multiples is bad. What about a 2/2 split and something else instead (e.g. a 4th Grip)? Or maybe a 3/2 split?

As for the DD combo, you're most likely right. Although I would prefer to add a third Teeg/1 Boseiju. Too many copies doesn't seem too great without Brainstorm.

Glacial Chasm as tutor target and 1 Oracle of Mul Daya are fine since you don't complain about them?

I wouldn´t run more than 2 Cavern. You have plenty of ways to find 1 if necessary. Of course SDT is better in this deck than Sylvan, but for the matter to beat Miracles only, you really want to be able to put Needle on Top without any regrets. Library is a great card against Miracles and drawing multiples isn´t a bad thing, since it either means you can bait counters with them or if you get to resolve one, you get to draw a bunch of additional cards, in which case one or two (very unlikely) additional copies in your hand don´t really matter.

Glacial Chasm and Oracle are fine. Chasm gives you an out to early Entreats if needed. And Oracle is another source of card advantage which is always a good thing vs Miracles.

[Barook]

That's the list I put together now and see how it goes:

1 Oracle of Mul Daya
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Expedition Map
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Crop Rotation
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Vesuva
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Windswept Heath
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Pithing Needle
4 Primeval Titan
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Savannah
3 Sylvan Library
3 Krosan Grip
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Glacial Chasm

4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Krosan Grip
4 Moment's Peace
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Ratchet Bomb


Any tips on how to play the Miracle match-up?

[nodahero]

That's the list I put together now and see how it goes:

...

Any tips on how to play the Miracle match-up?

Crop rotation a huge liability in the matchup. Personally I board them out. Also about a page back this disscussion was had. You can check there.

[Barook]

Played my first Miracle match today. Won 2-0 despite playing really abyssal with no experience of the deck.

Some observations I've made:

- 3 Gaddock Teegs is too many. 2 or maybe even one is enough.
- Crop Rotation is way too dead for my taste against Countertop. At the very least, I would reduce the numbers.
- 2 Caverns seems like a good idea.
- Glacial Chasm stays. Saved my ass in G1 when he went for 3 early Angels.

[Meekrab]

Played my first Miracle match today. Won 2-0 despite playing really abyssal with no experience of the deck.

Some observations I've made:

- 3 Gaddock Teegs is too many. 2 or maybe even one is enough.
- Crop Rotation is way too dead for my taste against Countertop. At the very least, I would reduce the numbers.
- 2 Caverns seems like a good idea.
- Glacial Chasm stays. Saved my ass in G1 when he went for 3 early Angels.
Why are you hating on Crop Rotation and not also on Expedition Map?

I get that Expedition Map isn't card disadvantage but it costs tempo where Rotation wins tempo.

Teeg is not there to fight Miracles, so you should try playing other matchups with him.

[Davek]

To beat Miracles, i would cut Moment's Peace for sure, Kozilek probably. Miracles is not such an aggro deck you need to have the full fog set, honestly i wouldn't play none against them. And Kozilek is never going to connect and it deals no real harm once cast. If a miracle player has a Karakas in hand you'll be pretty disappointed to have it instead of something else (yes, drawing cards is fun, but once under a Counterbalance lock most of them are going to be dead cards).
Also, i don't understand why you should cut your SDT. Do you think not playing it on your own just to try to name the opponent one with needle is such a big thing? As most 12-post players here can confirm, it's our best card-filter and i almost never sideboard it out. It's much more flexible than Sylvan Lybrary, it allows you to keep your best threats on the top of your deck almost ignoring vendilion clique's disruption effect, laughing of Jace +2 and if drawn in multiples it still has its usefulness.
Together with SDT, i would also increase Oracle of Mul-daya count, because it's totally bonkers with such artifact and it may attract StP while saving your future titans. Heck, it even upgrades your Brainstorms into Ancestral Recalls and 2 land drops!

[Dzra]

Played my first Miracle match today. Won 2-0 despite playing really abyssal with no experience of the deck.

You do realize that this matchup is absurdly lopsided and beating Miracles is rarely more complex than playing lands and then resolving any one of your Eldrazi or even a single Primeval Titan.

[endqwerty]

Got a question that isn't the most relevant in large tournaments. I'm running the UG build, mostly standard but has EE's as my choice of removal. Added it in by cutting 2 Maps. They seemed to hurt me more often than not (maybe this is where I'm going wrong, who knows). At my local meta there are lots of burn decks floating around. How do we normally deal with burn? I've tooled my deck to perform well against other decks across the board using Engineered Explosives, but of course its terrible against burn. Repeal is mediocre. Top doesn't interact, lands are nice but price. Crop rotation for glacial chasm is nice, but then I'm 100% on the show//tell or dead plan because I won't have extra time to play more lands. Any insight would be welcome. I'll post up my list later as I'll be going to a bigger tournament this Sunday and want as much insight as possible.

(on a side note: i beat miracles solidly by mulling into any hand with any action. Doesn't matter how late it is. Top counts. Also, EE on 0 turn 1 is amazing against the cheater build. They only have venser to remove it and Clique to pressure after that)

[Mockingbird]

Got a question that isn't the most relevant in large tournaments. I'm running the UG build, mostly standard but has EE's as my choice of removal. Added it in by cutting 2 Maps. They seemed to hurt me more often than not (maybe this is where I'm going wrong, who knows). At my local meta there are lots of burn decks floating around. How do we normally deal with burn? I've tooled my deck to perform well against other decks across the board using Engineered Explosives, but of course its terrible against burn. Repeal is mediocre. Top doesn't interact, lands are nice but price. Crop rotation for glacial chasm is nice, but then I'm 100% on the show//tell or dead plan because I won't have extra time to play more lands. Any insight would be welcome. I'll post up my list later as I'll be going to a bigger tournament this Sunday and want as much insight as possible.

Glimmerpost is your best friend against burn, and side in counters if you have them, namely for Price of Progress.

[Davek]

Got a question that isn't the most relevant in large tournaments. I'm running the UG build, mostly standard but has EE's as my choice of removal. Added it in by cutting 2 Maps. They seemed to hurt me more often than not (maybe this is where I'm going wrong, who knows). At my local meta there are lots of burn decks floating around. How do we normally deal with burn? I've tooled my deck to perform well against other decks across the board using Engineered Explosives, but of course its terrible against burn. Repeal is mediocre. Top doesn't interact, lands are nice but price. Crop rotation for glacial chasm is nice, but then I'm 100% on the show//tell or dead plan because I won't have extra time to play more lands. Any insight would be welcome. I'll post up my list later as I'll be going to a bigger tournament this Sunday and want as much insight as possible.

(on a side note: i beat miracles solidly by mulling into any hand with any action. Doesn't matter how late it is. Top counts. Also, EE on 0 turn 1 is amazing against the cheater build. They only have venser to remove it and Clique to pressure after that)

I've almost never lost a match to burn decks, although i have to admit i've never played against the most recent builds that run Vexing Shusher in sb. That thing scaries me a lot! For reference, this is the list a run a month ago, splitting 1st and 2nd pizes in a 55 men tournament

[MD]
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Trinket Mage
2 Oracle of Mul-Daya
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Pithing Needle
4 Repeal
3 Show and Tell

[SB]
3 Swan Song
1 Chalice of the Void
2 All is Dust
2 Moment's Peace
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm

I've recently cut Oracle from main list to make room for the 2 Moment's peace in sb, giving me 2 extra slots i'm still not sure how to employ. Anyway, as you can see i'm running E.E maindeck too, paired with a Trinket mage. If your build and sideboard is similar to mine, there shouldn't be great problems in beating burn.
Game 1 is obviously the toughest, because you have few ways to protect yourself. Keeping a green mana open and a Crop Rotation in hand to save you from Price of Progress is mandatory, but it's not the case to be afraid to develop your locus mana base in play. If you think about it, playing a glimmerpost with even a lonely other post in play means that you're gaining 2 additional lifes while Price would deal to you 2 more damage - unless they play more Prices against you, you have lost nothing!
I would be cautious about dropping too many tropical islands instead, unless i see i'm bottlenecked and need those additional manas to cast a titan for example. You should always fetch basic lands, of course
Post-sideboard, things get much easier. You bring in all the counterspells you can (i wouldn't side in all my Swan Songs honestly), while taking out irrelevant things such Pithing Needles, bojuka bogs, 1 x Repeal, explosives, 1 x Titan, 1 x SDT, Candelabra... DON'T side out Ulamog neither all your Repeals, you need them in case of sulfuric vortex/ensnaring bridge sticking in play (Repeals also raise the blue cards amount for Force of Will). If you feel your opponent is on the Shusher plan don't side them out at all.
Counterspells are great, but Chalice of the void is THE card, set it at 2 counters to make them weep. The only real card you have to fear is Price of Progress, so that's it. It also protects itself from Smash to Smithereens, a card that they will almost surely bring in to deal with your artifacts. Having Trinket Mage and an absurd library manipulation should allow you to find one of them. Hope this helps

[PollePotDK]

Could someone clarify for me what a cheater build is in regard to Miracles?

Also, does anyone have some good advice/strategy against BUG shell decks - always come short in that matchup. I'm running traditional UG build.

/PollePotDK

[Davek]

Could someone clarify for me what a cheater build is in regard to Miracles?

Also, does anyone have some good advice/strategy against BUG shell decks - always come short in that matchup. I'm running traditional UG build.

/PollePotDK

A "cheater" Miracles build is a list which maindecks blue hate like Pyroblast or REB.

Regarding BUG matchups, it's one of the toughest "fair-game deck" you may face together with its savage brother Jund (which is even worse in my opionion). There are a lot of BUG versions, so strategies of course change a lot while facing BUG delver or Shardless BUG or Walkers BUG. The versions relying on Hymn to Tourach are harder to beat than the ones who opt for Thoughtseize, because their brutal discard effect at the very beginning of the game may be really backbreaking. If your meta is filled with these contenders i would suggest you to run Oracle of Mul-daya maindeck, since it's amazing at filtering cards while accelerating mana. Paired with SDT and Brainstorm is simply incredible and BUG may have troubles dealing with it easily (Abrupt Decay proof). Other good cards are Moment's Peace, which maintains its usefullness even if discarded and big sweeper spells that if resolved totally nuke the board with the exception of our precious lands.

[endqwerty]

@Davek

Your opinions have been immensely helpful in my testing. I feel like I have a much better grasp of what I was doing wrong now. Before I was basically 100% on the get show//tell Primetime +glimmerposts or die. Of course, this loses to sulferic vortex and price easily. I will definitely strongly consider adding in one Chalice into the board.

My list right now is:

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Bajukabog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas

1 Emrakul
1 Ulamog
1 Kozelik
4 Primeval Titan
4 Show and Tell
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pithing Needle
2 Expedition Map
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Repeal
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation

Sideboard:
4 Flusterstorm
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Karn Liberated
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 ? idk what this was maybe the swan song. Probably could be the chalice here

I can see cutting one Show and Tell for a trinket mage easily. This opens up the opportunity to take out a Pithing needle and bring back in the Candelabra that I've taken out since its so inconsistent. Are there any suggestions to tune up the deck some possibly? For example, are there any spots where I'm clearly weak to a top tier matchup? I've had trouble with delver decks (RUG mainly) but I felt that it was likely to be the way I played the games than any issue with the deck itself. I'm often put into the situation (against almost every deck that applies any sort of pressure, which is basically any decks that play creatures) where I have to Crop Rotation for Glacial Chasm, but then don't have enough lands to cast anything so I'm suck hoping to Show and Tell in a Primeval Titan. I feel like the clock provided by a flipped delver is often just too much. Especially if the FoW a repeal or follow it up with a Tarmogoyf.

[Hencules]

Alex Khanin is destroying Miracles G1 on camera right now at SCG Dallas. It can be assumed he will move to 6-1 in this round.

[Postman]

Nice G1! Let's see how he performs after SB... Good luck! ☺

[sauce]

I got 9th on breakers by .18 :(
Also - my list:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=70887


Another 21 pointer (Shane Remelt) made it in 8th with tie breakers at 63.9~ while mine were 63.72~.

I beat:
Miracles - twice (rd1 and on camera rd7)
Shardless Bug - once (rd2)
Jund - once (rd3) (in very close 3 games, I top decked well to win the two games I did)
Aluren - once (rd4) (in two not very close games)
ANT - once (rd5), he scooped g3 to me because I had revoker (naming LED) and oracle beating him down but we went to time and he had no more win cons in the deck and no cards in hand (Thanks for being a good guy!)
Sneak and Show - once (rd9)

Lost:
UWR delver - once (rd6)
G1. Mulligan, 2x FoW for both my titans. Delver flip + Batterskull, Jitte, SFM.
G2 I mulligan he had 2 flipped delvers, wasteland and countered 2 SDTs, never in it.
Good matchup - bad luck.

BUG Delver - once (rd8) in the fake feature match, 3 games.
I had a ton of outs with 5 lands in play one being Cavern and 2 titans in hand, didn't draw 6th land, lost. He was the guy that beat Joe Lossett in t8.

[Sereon]

I got 9th on breakers by .18 :(
Also - my list:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=70887


Another 21 pointer (Shane Remelt) made it in 8th with tie breakers at 63.9~ while mine were 63.72~.

I beat:
Miracles - twice (rd1 and on camera rd7)
Shardless Bug - once (rd2)
Jund - once (rd3) (in very close 3 games, I top decked well to win the two games I did)
Aluren - once (rd4) (in two not very close games)
ANT - once (rd5), he scooped g3 to me because I had revoker (naming LED) and oracle beating him down but we went to time and he had no more win cons in the deck and no cards in hand (Thanks for being a good guy!)
Sneak and Show - once (rd9)

Lost:
UWR delver - once (rd6)
G1. Mulligan, 2x FoW for both my titans. Delver flip + Batterskull, Jitte, SFM.
G2 I mulligan he had 2 flipped delvers, wasteland and countered 2 SDTs, never in it.
Good matchup - bad luck.

BUG Delver - once (rd8) in the fake feature match, 3 games.
I had a ton of outs with 5 lands in play one being Cavern and 2 titans in hand, didn't draw 6th land, lost. He was the guy that beat Joe Lossett in t8.


Sad to hear about missing top 8 like that. It was however a joy to see you play, and a very beautiful deck! Congratulations to a great performance nonetheless!

[venice]

I got 9th on breakers by .18 :(
Also - my list:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=70887


Another 21 pointer (Shane Remelt) made it in 8th with tie breakers at 63.9~ while mine were 63.72~.

I beat:
Miracles - twice (rd1 and on camera rd7)
Shardless Bug - once (rd2)
Jund - once (rd3) (in very close 3 games, I top decked well to win the two games I did)
Aluren - once (rd4) (in two not very close games)
ANT - once (rd5), he scooped g3 to me because I had revoker (naming LED) and oracle beating him down but we went to time and he had no more win cons in the deck and no cards in hand (Thanks for being a good guy!)
Sneak and Show - once (rd9)

Lost:
UWR delver - once (rd6)
G1. Mulligan, 2x FoW for both my titans. Delver flip + Batterskull, Jitte, SFM.
G2 I mulligan he had 2 flipped delvers, wasteland and countered 2 SDTs, never in it.
Good matchup - bad luck.

BUG Delver - once (rd8) in the fake feature match, 3 games.
I had a ton of outs with 5 lands in play one being Cavern and 2 titans in hand, didn't draw 6th land, lost. He was the guy that beat Joe Lossett in t8.

Congrats! Looking forward to watch the coverage tonight when I have time. :smile:

[nodahero]

where can we find video coverage from SCG from yesterday or just prior tournamenets in general?

[TimHarding]

Excellent list and excellent showing!

[sauce]

where can we find video coverage from SCG from yesterday or just prior tournamenets in general?

http://www.mtgcoverage.com/

[sauce]

Excellent list and excellent showing!

Thanks Tim :)

[Ralf]

Could you give us some details on your SB choices ?
- BEB ?
- No chalice (with trinket mage) ?
- Relic of progenitus ?
- 1-of Phyrexian revoker ?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I don't know about completely cutting the SDT. It's colorless, can sort cards on demand and can be shuffled away in multiples while Sylvan Library in multiples is bad. What about a 2/2 split and something else instead (e.g. a 4th Grip)? Or maybe a 3/2 split?
Is Scroll Rack useful?

[sauce]

Could you give us some details on your SB choices ?
- BEB ?
- No chalice (with trinket mage) ?
- Relic of progenitus ?
- 1-of Phyrexian revoker ?

BEB is for Burn mainly. Playing at SCG and local meta, there is a decent amount of Burn players. It is also a good card vs Sneak attack, Imperial painter, Belcher and Past in Flames decks (not great but better than other cards that come out)

No chalice because I want to play my 1 drops and setting on 2 is ambitious vs the decks you want it against. Also drawing a 1 of or trinketing for it vs decks that you need it as soon as possible is not very likely.

Relic is another card I chose to play for this tournament because I expected a lot of BUG delver and RUG delver. I cut 4th Swan song for it. It does a good job slowing down Goyf and DRS as well as backdoor outs vs ANT and Dredge.

Revoker is also a card that is decent vs BUG delver naming DRS or Liliana. Great vs LED decks and other things like Painter, Sneak attack and MUD. He can be tutored via Eye of Ugin :)

[Fatal]

Hello,
About two year ago I was working Nic Fit and 12post hybrid, I even won GPT Amsterdam in Warsaw with it.Now after decay priniting I wrote Primer, Its very well handling current meta. Keeping good MU with RUG and BUG with much better MU vs Miracles was main aim link
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28391-Primer-Nic-Feat-8Post

Have a nice reading it's still under construction so any advice/errors please send to me.

[sauce]

Hello,
About two year ago I was working Nic Fit and 12post hybrid, I even won GPT Amsterdam in Warsaw with it.Now after decay priniting I wrote Primer, Its very well handling current meta. Keeping good MU with RUG and BUG with much better MU vs Miracles was main aim link
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28391-Primer-Nic-Feat-8Post

Have a nice reading it's still under construction so any advice/errors please send to me.

Cool deck, but on paper, it seems to have less available lines w/o Expedition maps and Crop rotations. Lack of Vesuva, Cavern and Glacial chasm is a concern.
It may be better vs BUG but I can't imagine it being consistently better vs the field.

[Fatal]

It has much different line of play:

Clodpost defend only by repeals and FoWs which can't generate card advantage, that's why it just race - I'm not a big fan of Rotation (vs any blue decks). Maps are not bad - but as 12Post need to find as soon as possible combo to race, deck which I describe can defense on long range, it runs 7 removals, 3 of them are uncounterable (Counterbalance isn't a problem - which sometimes can be problematic with so many 1-drops in Cloudpost - Rotations, Maps, brainstorms, needles etc) and 4 of them are mass removal which also wipe problematic pernaments (like humility, bridge etc).

[sauce]

It has much different line of play:

Clodpost defend only by repeals and FoWs which can't generate card advantage, that's why it just race - I'm not a big fan of Rotation (vs any blue decks). Maps are not bad - but as 12Post need to find as soon as possible combo to race, deck which I describe can defense on long range, it runs 7 removals, 3 of them are uncounterable (Counterbalance isn't a problem - which sometimes can be problematic with so many 1-drops in Cloudpost - Rotations, Maps, brainstorms, needles etc) and 4 of them are mass removal which also wipe problematic pernaments (like humility, bridge etc).

The way the game plays out is highly matchup dependent using UG version as opposed to your (GB version) deck which is basically hoping to just play dudes and removal until enough mana is assembled via SDT to try and find your loci and veteran explorer for basics. I like that it's very resilient to creatures but it seems much weaker to combo as it relies on discard spells and cannot ever stop infernal tutor w/o memoricide?
Also, w/o brainstorms and more shuffle effects like map & crop, you have a hard time making dead cards in your hand go back to the top of your library until you want to draw them. It just feels more like a rock deck than a 12-post deck. You are missing out on the instant speed blowouts from Crop Rotation -> Bojuka bog, Glacial chasm, Karakas, Cavern of souls, etc.
Also, Veteran explorer is not always going to be great, in fact vs miracles it's suicidal to let it die.

[endqwerty]

//edit: got conscripted to judge instead so not playing anymore :(

So, as mentioned before, I went to a tournament. Going to one again this weekend so looking for more advice. Here's how my tournament ended up.

My List (is there a way to make this minimizable)?:

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Bajuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas

1 Emrakul
1 Ulamog
1 Kozelik
4 Primeval Titan
1 Trinket Mage

1 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pithing Needle
2 Expedition Map
2 Engineered Explosives

3 Show and Tell
4 Repeal
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation

Sideboard:
4 Flusterstorm
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Karn Liberated
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Chalice of the Void


7 round event. Went 2-3 drop.

Round 1: Miracles/CounterTop 1 - 0
easy win. Keep literally any hand with mana sources. E.E. for 0 as early as possible is helpful in ensuring that turn 4 miracle Entreat the Angels doesn't just get there.

Round 2: Dredge 1 - 1
I feel like I punted, but not sure. Game 1, died to some good dredges. Not much to do. Glacial Chasm stalled for a bit, but I couldn't find any way to stabilize. Game 2, I mulled to 6 and kept Brainstorm, Sensei's Divining Top, Tropical Island, Cloudpost, Show and Tell, and Repeal. Not the worst, but clearly not the best. After the fact, I feel like I might have wanted to just keep mulling as I have to find Bajuka Bog to stabilize anyways. If I don't, my 6 card keep gets me killed unless I find Primeval Titan. With Top and Brainstorm I felt like it was a semi-reasonable keep, but thinking back I'm not 100% sure anymore. Thus I'm checking with you guys.

Round 3: Miracles/CounterTop 2 - 1
Easy win again. This guy was slightly newer to legacy and I completely blew him out as he chose to save Force of Wills for my win conditions. My win condition happened to be Emrakul + Karakas.

Round 4: Infect 2 - 2
Dead turn 2. No question. Just dead. He did it twice. Second game I brought in every Counter spell, Venser, and Chalice. Even if I found a Flusterstorm on turn 2, he had the FoW in hand.

Round 5: Delver of some sort 2 - 3
I died to turn 1 delver twice. Nothing special. Daze, FoW both games. Nothing of relevance here except I was knocked out of top 16 and thus prizing so I dropped.

So I want to cut the third Pithing Needle main and bring in Oracle of Mul Daya again.
Then fix the sideboard. The 4 Leyline of Sanctitys' seem ok, but often bad. I found that I need some hard counters sometimes, in the form of Swan Song. Especially against elves.

2 Karn Liberated
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flusterstorm
2 Swan Song
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 All is Dust
2 ? Leyline still or maybe Moment's Peace. Not sure. Leyline helps if I ever do go against Storm. (I have access to 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, for the tribal matchups)

[maCHOOga]

So I picked up the snow-post deck this week. I copied with the most current build and was pleased to go 3-0 at a weekly event.

I luckily beat ANT in three games and demolished RUG delver and aggro loam.

The past weekend we had a trial for a larger event that's upcoming. Guess what I lost to...miracles! Game 1 was a savage beating. Game two he cast humility and eldrazi I was able to scavenge was emrakul, yay 15 mana time warps. I then got grinded to death by a 1/1 vendillion clique and snap caster Mage. Every board sweeper, he had a counter for.

Game three I was bloodmooned, unfortunately I drew 0 green sources the entirety of a game. Ultimately I had my library jaced away. I drew a ostone, which got counterspelled.

Is there warrant for running 1 or 2 Krosan grips? Or even Karn?

Also, in general how is 12 posts matchup against lands? There tends to be an abundance of lands players in my metagame.

[TimHarding]

//edit: got conscripted to judge instead so not playing anymore :(

So, as mentioned before, I went to a tournament. Going to one again this weekend so looking for more advice. Here's how my tournament ended up.

My List (is there a way to make this minimizable)?:

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Bajuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas

1 Emrakul
1 Ulamog
1 Kozelik
4 Primeval Titan
1 Trinket Mage

1 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pithing Needle
2 Expedition Map
2 Engineered Explosives

3 Show and Tell
4 Repeal
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation

Sideboard:
4 Flusterstorm
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Karn Liberated
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Chalice of the Void


7 round event. Went 2-3 drop.

Round 1: Miracles/CounterTop 1 - 0
easy win. Keep literally any hand with mana sources. E.E. for 0 as early as possible is helpful in ensuring that turn 4 miracle Entreat the Angels doesn't just get there.

Round 2: Dredge 1 - 1
I feel like I punted, but not sure. Game 1, died to some good dredges. Not much to do. Glacial Chasm stalled for a bit, but I couldn't find any way to stabilize. Game 2, I mulled to 6 and kept Brainstorm, Sensei's Divining Top, Tropical Island, Cloudpost, Show and Tell, and Repeal. Not the worst, but clearly not the best. After the fact, I feel like I might have wanted to just keep mulling as I have to find Bajuka Bog to stabilize anyways. If I don't, my 6 card keep gets me killed unless I find Primeval Titan. With Top and Brainstorm I felt like it was a semi-reasonable keep, but thinking back I'm not 100% sure anymore. Thus I'm checking with you guys.

Round 3: Miracles/CounterTop 2 - 1
Easy win again. This guy was slightly newer to legacy and I completely blew him out as he chose to save Force of Wills for my win conditions. My win condition happened to be Emrakul + Karakas.

Round 4: Infect 2 - 2
Dead turn 2. No question. Just dead. He did it twice. Second game I brought in every Counter spell, Venser, and Chalice. Even if I found a Flusterstorm on turn 2, he had the FoW in hand.

Round 5: Delver of some sort 2 - 3
I died to turn 1 delver twice. Nothing special. Daze, FoW both games. Nothing of relevance here except I was knocked out of top 16 and thus prizing so I dropped.

So I want to cut the third Pithing Needle main and bring in Oracle of Mul Daya again.
Then fix the sideboard. The 4 Leyline of Sanctitys' seem ok, but often bad. I found that I need some hard counters sometimes, in the form of Swan Song. Especially against elves.

2 Karn Liberated
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flusterstorm
2 Swan Song
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 All is Dust
2 ? Leyline still or maybe Moment's Peace. Not sure. Leyline helps if I ever do go against Storm. (I have access to 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, for the tribal matchups)

The losses seem to point to poor mulligans and maybe not putting enough emphasis on 'stopping them'. Really the first 4 turns of most games shouldn't be looking to explode. That is a rare line. Against dredge, you need bog. So mulling to crop or bog is a good line to take. G1 is tough in the dark, but any keepable hand features at least some number of crop, top, storm, and map. So, finding it in a few turns should be possible. G2-3, mulling to crop or permission+map are the only keepable hands. Only after you've nuked a yard or two should you begin looking for titans and whatever. Usually a great MU.

Against infect, same story. Crop for chasm and repeal are amazing weapons here. Games 2 and 3 you know what's coming. They don't have enough counters to stop all your repeals, crops, maps, and counters. Needle on inkmoth is big. Also moments peace is big game against this deck and the meta in general, so I strongly recommend adding it.

Although all of legacy loses to delver god hands, delver remains the best post matchup in my opinion. Keep basics, 4 land hands with tops, and repeals. Sacrificial SnT, repeal delver, crop respond to waste are all massively crippling plays. Landing 1 of them almost always results in a win.

I don't think the sideboard slots you spend on Karn/revoker/crucible/leyline do not really allow you to transform the deck effectively to fight the field. Post needs to often fundamentally change the game plan to win matchups, not shave-and-tweak like delver boards, which is how it looks to me. FOW is a matter of opinion, but it would've definitely helped your matchups. Otherwise the MD looks very solid but low blue counts are risky and adding another map could help that.

Best of luck!

[TimHarding]

Where is Rock Lee?

My guess is he will emerge in some feature match with a RW post deck or farther beyond haha

[Darkenslight]

Where is Rock Lee?

My guess is he will emerge in some feature match with a RW post deck or farther beyond haha

RW's too slow. :smile:

We'll probably be playing 'Post & Nail' with Emrakul and Xenagos, God of Revels next month. :tongue:

[maCHOOga]

RW's too slow. :smile:

We'll probably be playing 'Post & Nail' with Emrakul and Xenagos, God of Revels next month. :tongue:

Don't joke about that, guess what I died to in modern once out of mono green genesis waves sideboard. Those exact three cards lol

[Davek]

So I picked up the snow-post deck this week. I copied with the most current build and was pleased to go 3-0 at a weekly event.

I luckily beat ANT in three games and demolished RUG delver and aggro loam.

The past weekend we had a trial for a larger event that's upcoming. Guess what I lost to...miracles! Game 1 was a savage beating. Game two he cast humility and eldrazi I was able to scavenge was emrakul, yay 15 mana time warps. I then got grinded to death by a 1/1 vendillion clique and snap caster Mage. Every board sweeper, he had a counter for.

Game three I was bloodmooned, unfortunately I drew 0 green sources the entirety of a game. Ultimately I had my library jaced away. I drew a ostone, which got counterspelled.

Is there warrant for running 1 or 2 Krosan grips? Or even Karn?

Also, in general how is 12 posts matchup against lands? There tends to be an abundance of lands players in my metagame.

Heh, getting blown out by a Blood Moon is something that may occur, but luckily most of Miracles players have quitted that sb card.
K. Grip is absolutely playable even if it doesn't fit my playstyle. I mean, it is a card that i'm never happy to draw unless in very corner cases like the Blood moon scenario you were describing. Yes, it may be good against a pretty large number of cards, but my opinion is that you can simply ignore 99% of them and proceed with your gameplan.
I've tested Karn and it is honestly very unrelyable. Yes, sometimes it is a house, but usually it is against an almost empty board (and in that case you should already be winning anyway). When the battlefield is crowded, it is an awfully overcosted vindicate that will prevent 3-4 damage to you at most. I would suggest All is Dust over this guy, because it will serve you better most of the times (also consider that with Eye of Ugin in play All is Dust will cost you 5 manas)

About the Lands matchup, i found that all goes around their recurring wasteland plan. If they can recover them and play them in multiples due to Explore/Manabond then you may be in trouble, but if they can't do this in the first 3 turns then you can be pretty sure you'll easily win the game. Show and Tell for Titan is huge here, for they absolutely have no ways to kill it and Maze of Ith wont stop you from getting your precious lands. Bojuka bog is awesome too, try to save your vesuvas to copy it.

[sauce]

I always play as if they have Blood moon post board and keep hands that can find basics via fetch, sdt, map. If you dont, you are risking to get mooned right on out.

[J-Funk]

After a year away from Eldrazi madness, I'm returning to this deck. Very excited to dig back in.

I'm currently testing Teferi's Response in the sideboard to fight wasteland decks, vindicates, ports, what have you. Has anybody tried this card before? It seems VERY good.

[Kirika]

Just started trying GU 10 post about a month ago since my usual deck Reanimator is not well positioned right now between all the Delver decks and Deathrite shaman and I like bashing with big creatures.

Having problems with the following match ups.

Burn seems hard to win even with boarding in Forces and Blue blasts. Price of Progress just owns you. If you don't have counter or Crop Rotation for Chasm in response you will likely lose the game from a resolved Price of Progress. Only running 2 Basics. Eidelon also is a huge beating since you take damage from Map, Top, Crop that you need to develop your mana.

Infect is also a huge beating and is likely to see an uptick since it top 8ed a SCG lately. Maybe 4th Repeal would help but it doesn't even work on Inkmoth Nexus and they may have the Vines. More Moment's Peace board?

BUG Delver is a huge pain with Discard, Counters and Wasteland. You want to wait to play around Daze but you then get hit by discard. Liliana is pretty annoying making you discard and turns off show and tell unless you Show and Tell a Titan and get Garden. Garden helps with the plant to sack to Liliana if you do resolve a show and tell into Titan but slows your get an Eldrazi plan.
Against Delver decks do you play around Daze with your Top/Map/Needle or do you just jam it? BUG delver hits you with discard so you are put in a use it or lose it but running your stuff out into Daze just seems bad.

Also have a few questions for those playing the deck awhile please.

So Kozilek vs Ulamog or both?

Kozilek draws you 4 which is really good if your getting hit by discard. Kozilek also costs 1 less mana which has come up a few times. Ulamog destroys a permanent which gets rid of Ensnaring Bridge and other annoying things that stop you from winning. If your boarding Ensnaring Bridge Ulamog seems like the better choice.

Hard to find room to fit both though.

So what anti aggro cards should I be running sideboard?

All is Dust costs 7 which is not always possible to cast in time before you lose. Tried 2 board and wasn't to impressed that week.

Elephant Grass ties up my own mana so interferes with casting my own spells to develop my board. Tried 2 board and didn't like them.

Engineered Explosives has been good answer to Empty the Warrens or multiple Delvers and is good on 1 or two if I have the colored mana to use it but can be not very good against varied costs or things that cost more then 2. Not sure if I want a second one board. I run 1 main deck with Trinket to fetch it.

Moment's Peace stalls for 2 turns if it doesn't get countered, hit by discard or deathrite shamaned. I play against too much BUG Delver since my brother plays it. It does not stop burn and requires mana on 2 seperate turns but does not cast as much as Elephant Grass ultimately does but requiring colored mana can still hinder development. Been running 2 between main and board.

Ensnaring Bridge often got destroyed by Abrupt Decay/other removal or you can't empty your hand fast enoughif your holding Eldrazi or Primeval Titan or get wastelanded off colored sources. Deathrite Shaman also gets around Bridge which is a problem since you can be at pretty low life by the time you get your bridge down and your hand size down. Tried 2 in the board.

Propganda doesn't stop the one big fatty from beating you. Didn't actually try this.

Blue blast vs Flusterstorm or a mix of both?
Blue Blast is better against burn but Flusterstorm is better vs Dredge, Combo, and Storm.

@Sauce
Congrats on your finish.

@maChooga
Needle on Top is the best way to fight Miracles hurting their card selection and turning off the ability to float miracles on top. Fetch for Forest early so can cast prime time off forest + vesuva on Forest if they have a blood moon.

Krosan Grip is pretty good since it gets rid of Bloodmoon, Counterbalance, Eidelon, Null Rod, Vortex, among other things.

Karn I think depends if there is alot of Miracles. It didn't seem that good to me in other match ups

Lands really depends if you can get Pithing Needle on Wasteland before they start recuring Wasteland with Loam. Crop Rotating or Maping for Bog to remove their Life from the Loam and using Vesuva to copy it vs further Loams is great but be aware of cycle lands they may have to get their loam back in response. You have Repeal and Karakas to deal with their Marit Lage token if they Thespian Stage/Dark Depths Combo. Chalice in the board to set on 2 to lock out Life from the Loam and Punishing Fire is pretty nice too.

@Davek


@J-Funk
I remember running Teferi's Response years ago in the sideboard of Keeper for Vintage as an anti wasteland measure. Back then there wasn't any Spell Pierce or Daze so Teferi's Response was great.

[sauce]

After a year away from Eldrazi madness, I'm returning to this deck. Very excited to dig back in.

I'm currently testing Teferi's Response in the sideboard to fight wasteland decks, vindicates, ports, what have you. Has anybody tried this card before? It seems VERY good.

Crop rotation

[maCHOOga]

This past weekend there was a Duel for Duals where I showed up with Snow-Post. Total there were 75 people that showed up for the event... here's what I've learned...

My build was a realitively stock list with the glacial chasm main, one of both wurmcoil engine & obstinate baloth in SB.

Rounds 1 and 2 were against RUG delver and miracles respectively. They were realitively painless. Record: 2-0

Round 3 was against the Mirror match?!? My opponent was on the UG 10-Post vs. my snow-post. Despite us both having "nearly infinite" colorless mana, we determined the UG Post build trumps the Snow-post build. Game 1, I was put into the position where I had to Marit Leige or die to Eldrazi. Unfortunately, I knew that I was playing directly into a Repeal. Game 2, we both had two Eldrazi's in play. My opponent was able to survive Annihilator 10, whereas I was not. Ultimately, I had a pair of sacred grounds in play to hedge against the annihilator. The first one was krosan gripped and the 2nd was repeal. I was the one with no permanents left lol. This was one of the most fun and ridiculous games of magic I've ever had. Record: 2-1

Round's 4 and 5 were against BUG delver and Shardless BUG. Between grafdiggers cages and null rods, I wasn't able to do too much. I did drop a obstinate baloth into play on turn 2 against shardless. It did 12 damage and then got outclassed by a 5/6 tarmogoyf. I don't think it's worth a sideboard slot. Record: 2-3

Round 6 was against Lands. Game 1 I got turbo dark depths. Game 2, I grinded out a win in the second game. Unfortunately, we didn't have enough time for a 3rd game. Record 2-3-1

Round 7 was against Shardless BUG. This time their hate cards didn't show up and I took infinite turns. :-) Record 3-3-1

Even though I didn't top 8, I had a blast. It turns out that my Round 3 UG 10-Post player did top 8 however.

[Mockingbird]

I'm currently testing Teferi's Response in the sideboard to fight wasteland decks, vindicates, ports, what have you. Has anybody tried this card before? It seems VERY good.

II've thought about but against most decks, it's up to four cards to deal with four cards (their Wastelands). That's not worth the space because there's so much more to deal with than Land destruction, but if your meta has more of those effects you mentioned, then let me know how your testing goes.

[Davek]

[QUOTE=Kirika;829129]
@Davek

QUOTE]

I suppose there should be a message for me here...?

[Leo]

I'm a fans of this fantastic deck. May I ask why the MD Revokers has been abandoned in your latest building?
Besides, I got my own 12-post deck days ago, but I find it is really a trouble fighting against BUG delver. Are there some recipes in this match-up?
Thanks for your consideration!

[sauce]

I'm a fans of this fantastic deck. May I ask why the MD Revokers has been abandoned in your latest building?
Besides, I got my own 12-post deck days ago, but I find it is really a trouble fighting against BUG delver. Are there some recipes in this match-up?
Thanks for your consideration!

In my experience, this deck has two tough matchups from commonly played decks:

BUG Delver
Elves!


Omnitell and MUD are also very bad but thankfully are not commonly played.

I personally would much rather face Burn, ANT & Belcher than BUG delver and Elves.

I think the games that are hardest to win vs BUG delver are the ones where they attack your hand via Thoughseize/Hymn/V.Clique.
If they have any pressure at all to back up the hand disruption, it's almost impossible to win.

Your best bet is to play around LD in the matchup via basics, smart fetching, crop rotations and try to resolve S&T into a Titan.
You will RARELY get to hard cast a Primetime in the BUG Delver matchup due to hand disruption, wastelands and the delver/goyf clock (as well as FoW/daze/Liliana).

I sideboard in: 1 Relic, 1 Revoker (for DRS/liliana/chumping), 1 Moment's peace. I take out 2 Expedition Map and 1 Candelabra (I only run 1) because they are not great at keeping you alive early and also 2 of them grow Goyf by sacrifice. Also they have decays fwiw.

[TimHarding]

The BUG MU is discussed thoroughly in this thread, so read a little further back for more info.

This matchup is rough if you play into their game plan. It is still very winnable, and I feel favored. Most of what sauce said I agree with except for the assembling SnT+Titan plan. My BUG wins are actually most often with a hardcast Titan, and seldom with SnT. The reason is that their deck is built to prevent decks from assembling multi card combos (sneak+guy, SFM+business) through black disruption and instead forces oppents cards to be good on their own, where BUGs individual card power is very high. SnT does nothing on its own, so leaning on it is playing into their strategy. Same goes for candle. I side most of them out.

Instead, playing small ball and interacting with their creatures enough to live and hit land drops is the best plan IMO. The worst possible line is hitting 4 lands, having a map out, and SnT Titan in hand, only to be blown out by hymn. Ideally, you have access to a basic, and Multiple Tops, Brainstorms and Repeals - Cards that boost your chances of drawing cards with higher individual power. I won't keep a hand without a top or brainstorm. You'll find your Titan soon enough. I side in extra needle, flusterstorm, and EE, to increase interaction.

Good plays are Repeal Delver, Crop respond to waste, Needle Liliana, moments peace. Map is just fine if you don't tap out and expose it to abrupt decay. Bad plays usually involve having your hand has your #1 resource, which is easy to fall into.

Cards to consider adding if you want more weapons are Oracle, then Oracle 2, GSZ, Trinket Mage, Khalni Garden.

[sauce]

Tim, I agree w/ S&T being "bad" because of what you said.

The games I recall winning vs BUG delver are usually off either A) quick S&T that resolves B) Opponent that keeps incorrectly and/or sequences plays incorrectly C) Opponent has a creature heavy draw w/o land/hand disruption.
It's not possible to beat the BUG delver's nut draw w/ our nut draw. You need to draw better than average to beat their average draws. I don't consider myself favored and I play 1 Khalni garden, 1 Oracle, 1 Trinket mage and 1 EE main as well as 1 Moment's peace.

You obviously "can" resolve a hardcast titan but in my experience it occurs when they don't disrupt your lands/hand or they have no pressure to go with all the disruption.
If you don't have cavern you can also go for the S&T bait into hardcast next turn.

[Davek]

Have you guys tried All is dust? I found it working fine against both decks. Elves player usually have to clog the board with tons of elves in order to find the highest number of Quirion Rangers and Wirewood Symbiotes to untap D.rite Shaman multiple times while you're hiding behind Glacial Chasm, so it usually wipes them out, while it can save you from a compromised situation against BUG taking care of Liliana, Delver and Tarmo in a single shot. It works expecially well when your opponent has ticked up Liliana for some turn because chances that he has 2 blue cards for Fow are thinner.
Avoiding any artifact hate is a big plus in my opinion, but of course you have to reach a critical mass of mana to cast it, which is not always easy.

[Lemnear]

Have you guys tried All is dust? I found it working fine against both decks. Elves player usually have to clog the board with tons of elves in order to find the highest number of Quirion Rangers and Wirewood Symbiotes to untap D.rite Shaman multiple times while you're hiding behind Glacial Chasm, so it usually wipes them out, while it can save you from a compromised situation against BUG taking care of Liliana, Delver and Tarmo in a single shot. It works expecially well when your opponent has ticked up Liliana for some turn because chances that he has 2 blue cards for Fow are thinner.
Avoiding any artifact hate is a big plus in my opinion, but of course you have to reach a critical mass of mana to cast it, which is not always easy.

Except that DRS will be bounced back to their owners hand with Symbiote in response to your All Is Dust. You can make a fine trade here but it's not guaranteed to save you between your opponent being able to refill his hand and board with Glimpse and having saved DRS and the like to rebuild fast.

[Davek]

Except that DRS will be bounced back to their owners hand with Symbiote in response to your All Is Dust. You can make a fine trade here but it's not guaranteed to save you between your opponent being able to refill his hand and board with Glimpse and having saved DRS and the like to rebuild fast.

DRS has no haste and is not very good on it's own without all the untappers and Birchlore Rangers, so you usually have gained 1-2 turns more to live and take the game over. If this deck has reached a sufficient amount of mana in order to cast All is Dust it is very possible that you have the opportunity to hard-cast a Titan the very next turn, gaining enough lifes to keep that Glacial chasm alive one more turn, allowing you to go infinite. It's not a matchup i'm happy to face anyway, no doubts.

[TimHarding]

Tim, I agree w/ S&T being "bad" because of what you said.

The games I recall winning vs BUG delver are usually off either A) quick S&T that resolves B) Opponent that keeps incorrectly and/or sequences plays incorrectly C) Opponent has a creature heavy draw w/o land/hand disruption.
It's not possible to beat the BUG delver's nut draw w/ our nut draw. You need to draw better than average to beat their average draws. I don't consider myself favored and I play 1 Khalni garden, 1 Oracle, 1 Trinket mage and 1 EE main as well as 1 Moment's peace.

You obviously "can" resolve a hardcast titan but in my experience it occurs when they don't disrupt your lands/hand or they have no pressure to go with all the disruption.
If you don't have cavern you can also go for the S&T bait into hardcast next turn.

Of course this deck will lose to the grail hands of pressure+disruption+LD. Our lists are built to handle pressure and fight through LD. But I think what needs to be communicated is that fighting sorcery speed disruption requires instant speed interaction (top, storm, crop, repeal), as opposed to fighting through blue permission with sorcery speed threats (sacrificial SnT, artifacts, treats), like against RUG delver. While well practiced pilots will have an easy time against rug, keeping the same approach against bug will bring trouble quick, it's a totally different animal.

Regarding Elves, if you're already progressing after chasm lands, 7 mana should be a next turn combo win over all is dust in my opinion. Moments peace in multiples has really helped this MU so much. I play EE as my favorite sweeper and I think it's better than all is dust against both elves and bug.

[Rock Lee]

Work been taxing me hard lately but lately it loosened up. Still no time for weekend events sadly, but with weekly magic being possible I am back to testing and theorycrafting.

Have been looking again at bonfire and testing Kurkesh. Results are intriguing.

[203995014]

Work been taxing me hard lately but lately it loosened up. Still no time for weekend events sadly, but with weekly magic being possible I am back to testing and theorycrafting.

Have been looking again at bonfire and testing Kurkesh. Results are intriguing.

What purpose does Kurkesh ever serve in this deck? Is there something huge I'm missing about it?

[kingtk3]

What purpose does Kurkesh ever serve in this deck? Is there something huge I'm missing about it?

I guess it's a draw engine with Top, double tutor with Map and double untap with candelabra (but this is the icing on the cake, maybe in this version they are not even included).

What annoys me is the double red in the casting cost and the activations require R: if it was less color intensive it could be very useful.

[Leo]

Tim, I agree w/ S&T being "bad" because of what you said.

The games I recall winning vs BUG delver are usually off either A) quick S&T that resolves B) Opponent that keeps incorrectly and/or sequences plays incorrectly C) Opponent has a creature heavy draw w/o land/hand disruption.
It's not possible to beat the BUG delver's nut draw w/ our nut draw. You need to draw better than average to beat their average draws. I don't consider myself favored and I play 1 Khalni garden, 1 Oracle, 1 Trinket mage and 1 EE main as well as 1 Moment's peace.

You obviously "can" resolve a hardcast titan but in my experience it occurs when they don't disrupt your lands/hand or they have no pressure to go with all the disruption.
If you don't have cavern you can also go for the S&T bait into hardcast next turn.

Really thanks for all of the instructions!
And I fully aggree with you. BUG delver are attacking in 4 directions, clock, countermagic, lands destruction and discard. I could beat BUG when they have massive creatures or some narrow means, but seldomly win when they are attacking all around, especially ate a 2-turn hymn. That's what I'm struggling.
I'll test Oracle and EE (already using the Garden when I asking for help), hope they could help.

[TimHarding]

Flusterstorm might seem like an odd thing to side in against BUG but I'll put one or two in over candles or SnT to allow me to snag a hymn, or push through a crop rotation or something. It's nothing crazy but it's tool to fight their disruption rather than dance around it.

[Postman]

Work been taxing me hard lately but lately it loosened up. Still no time for weekend events sadly, but with weekly magic being possible I am back to testing and theorycrafting.

Have been looking again at bonfire and testing Kurkesh. Results are intriguing.
Great to see you back ☺ I'm really curious about your return to R, perhaps you can tell the red cards (is there something else besides BotD and Kurk?) and the involved artifacts, please? Right now I'm tinkering with Firespout, but only as SB option...

[TheBoozeCube]

Haven't posted in a long time, but I took 6th at a 33-person weekly Legacy event at my LGS with this list:

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3 All Is Dust
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
3 Exploration
3 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
8 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Vesuva

SIDEBOARD
3 Krosan Grip
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Primeval Titan
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Surgical Extraction

Round 1 - Jund NicFit
This wasn't very close. I steamrolled my opponent 2-0 in less than 15 minutes.

Round 2 - RUG Delver
I lost this one, which was fairly unusual, even off mulligans to 4 and 5. Game 1 lasted about 40 minutes, with me hiding behind a Chasm and Tabernacle. I used multiple Vesuvas to copy Thespian's Stage, which let me hang on at 2 life by repeatedly resetting Chasm. Unfortunately, I kept on topdecking lands, but no tutors or threats. My opponent eventually found double Stifle for my Vesuva/Stage + Candelabra, leaving me unable to copy Chasm in response to upkeep, and could Bolt me for lethal. Given the time left, I mulled away a reasonable but slower hand in game 2 and got punished for it. I kept 2x Ancient Stirrings, Forest, Needle, Candelabra, drew Cloudpost, Glimmerpost and All Is Dust, but couldn't find a second Post in time to wipe his board.

Round 3 - Miracles
Unsurprisingly, this was a very quick 2-0.

Round 4 - Lands
I almost snap conceded when I saw pairings. Aside from it being the worst possible matchup, my opponent is a very skilled player. Fortunately, I decided to play it out. I scooped game 1 fairly quickly to a Wasteland/Loam lock so that I'd actually have time for post-SB games:
+2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Primeval Titan, +3 Krosan Grip
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Glacial Chasm, -3 Maze of Ith, -3 All Is Dust
[Note: My maindeck is 61 cards and sideboard is 14, which is why it's +7 and -8. Essentially, I preboard Tabernacle in game 1 for the free wins. It's worked very well so far.]
In game 2, I was able to Surgical his Loam very early. My opponent had Dark Depths and Wasteland on board. I played Cloudpost to bait his Wasteland, then responded with Crop Rotation into Thespian's Stage to make my own Marit Lage to kill him on my next turn.
In game 3, I had a slow start after a mulligan but had a T1 Needle naming Wasteland. My opponent didn't have a loam but dropped Revoker naming Expedition Map and proceeded to beat down while I dropped a few Posts. He found Loam and cast Intuition to get Depths, Stage, and Karakas. I gave him Karakas, then Surgicaled his Loam. A topdecked Krosan Grip let me kill Revoker and find Eye of Ugin, which let me find and cast Kozilek, which in turn drew a Candelabra, which in turn let me find and cast Ulamog.
In 3 years of playing the deck, this was my second time ever beating Lands. Both times were against skilled pilots who've top 8ed multiple SCGs with the deck, so I'm quite pleased.

[caw_86]

Haven't posted in a long time, but I took 6th at a 33-person weekly Legacy event at my LGS with this list:

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3 All Is Dust
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
3 Exploration
3 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
8 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Vesuva

SIDEBOARD
3 Krosan Grip
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Primeval Titan
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Surgical Extraction

Round 1 - Jund NicFit
This wasn't very close. I steamrolled my opponent 2-0 in less than 15 minutes.

Round 2 - RUG Delver
I lost this one, which was fairly unusual, even off mulligans to 4 and 5. Game 1 lasted about 40 minutes, with me hiding behind a Chasm and Tabernacle. I used multiple Vesuvas to copy Thespian's Stage, which let me hang on at 2 life by repeatedly resetting Chasm. Unfortunately, I kept on topdecking lands, but no tutors or threats. My opponent eventually found double Stifle for my Vesuva/Stage + Candelabra, leaving me unable to copy Chasm in response to upkeep, and could Bolt me for lethal. Given the time left, I mulled away a reasonable but slower hand in game 2 and got punished for it. I kept 2x Ancient Stirrings, Forest, Needle, Candelabra, drew Cloudpost, Glimmerpost and All Is Dust, but couldn't find a second Post in time to wipe his board.

Round 3 - Miracles
Unsurprisingly, this was a very quick 2-0.

Round 4 - Lands
I almost snap conceded when I saw pairings. Aside from it being the worst possible matchup, my opponent is a very skilled player. Fortunately, I decided to play it out. I scooped game 1 fairly quickly to a Wasteland/Loam lock so that I'd actually have time for post-SB games:
+2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Primeval Titan, +3 Krosan Grip
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Glacial Chasm, -3 Maze of Ith, -3 All Is Dust
[Note: My maindeck is 61 cards and sideboard is 14, which is why it's +7 and -8. Essentially, I preboard Tabernacle in game 1 for the free wins. It's worked very well so far.]
In game 2, I was able to Surgical his Loam very early. My opponent had Dark Depths and Wasteland on board. I played Cloudpost to bait his Wasteland, then responded with Crop Rotation into Thespian's Stage to make my own Marit Lage to kill him on my next turn.
In game 3, I had a slow start after a mulligan but had a T1 Needle naming Wasteland. My opponent didn't have a loam but dropped Revoker naming Expedition Map and proceeded to beat down while I dropped a few Posts. He found Loam and cast Intuition to get Depths, Stage, and Karakas. I gave him Karakas, then Surgicaled his Loam. A topdecked Krosan Grip let me kill Revoker and find Eye of Ugin, which let me find and cast Kozilek, which in turn drew a Candelabra, which in turn let me find and cast Ulamog.
In 3 years of playing the deck, this was my second time ever beating Lands. Both times were against skilled pilots who've top 8ed multiple SCGs with the deck, so I'm quite pleased.

why no dark depths of your own

why no titans main deck

i would have probably surgicaled dark depths in that game against lands, they don't have a very effective way to kill you out side of marit lage

[TheBoozeCube]

why no dark depths of your own

why no titans main deck

i would have probably surgicaled dark depths in that game against lands, they don't have a very effective way to kill you out side of marit lage

1) I've looked into Depths, but it just doesn't do enough work for me to justify it. It requires a 2-card combo, puts me down 2-lands, and 90% of the time, I'd rather spend two tutors to find Cloudposts or Eye. I just use Stage as a 13th Post that can occasionally double as a Maze of Ith or reset Glacial Chasm.

2) Titan's a great card, but it's not a great fit for my version of the deck. I'm not running blue, so I can't use S&T to cheat it out. And I'm just splashing green, so producing GG is frequently awkward unless I have a Candelabra out. Instead, I have a higher density of cheap tutors to let me find Posts directly in the first few turns. Ancient Stirrings is particularly important; as my deck is about 80% colorless, Ancient Stirrings is better than Brainstorm for my purposes because it lets me see 5 cards instead of 3 for the same cost. Titan is a colored permanent, so I can't grab it with Ancient Stirrings in the mid- or late game, significantly decreasing the utility of some of my most powerful cards. I've actually been seriously considering cutting Titan from the SB for an Oblivion Stone.

3) I conceded game 1 to Wasteland lock. I had to win games 2 and 3. Even if I removed his only serious win condition in Depths, an active Loam engine would have enabled him to easily stall me until time ran out, costing me the match.

[Mockingbird]

2) Titan's a great card, but it's not a great fit for my version of the deck. I'm not running blue, so I can't use S&T to cheat it out. And I'm just splashing green, so producing GG is frequently awkward unless I have a Candelabra out. Instead, I have a higher density of cheap tutors to let me find Posts directly in the first few turns. Ancient Stirrings is particularly important; as my deck is about 80% colorless, Ancient Stirrings is better than Brainstorm for my purposes because it lets me see 5 cards instead of 3 for the same cost. Titan is a colored permanent, so I can't grab it with Ancient Stirrings in the mid- or late game, significantly decreasing the utility of some of my most powerful cards. I've actually been seriously considering cutting Titan from the SB for an Oblivion Stone.

Snow-Post gets around the problem by running Green Sun's Zenith instead of Ancient Stirrings because resolving Primeval Titan in a deck like this is a difficult card for an opponent to catch up to even if they respond to the Trigger with Swords to Plowshares. I've played your deck before and know your deck is closer to Modern Tron or even MUD-Post, so I know why you opt out of it, but at the same time, generally Titan clinches many more games because he finds what you need when you need it.

That being said, while I can understand why you don't play Primeval Titan, Karn Liberated (at least in the side) is a significant threat that opponents have to solve or be stripped from the game. I've played it in MUD-Post, 12-Post, and Modern Tron, and Karn is powerhouse.

Also, if you want to talk about alternate threats than Primeval Titan or even supplements to the Eldrazi, you should look into what MUD-Post decks play.

Sundering Titan wrecks color intense decks (especially if you want to combo it with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to give yourself Strip Mine and let all your lands tap for mana).
Steel Hellkite is a 5/5 flying Powder Keg.
Wurmcoil Engine is one of the best generic beaters because of huge life swings on a big body (although Thragtusk is useful in that spot as well).
Lodestone Golem is a rare Taxes with legs (although since you're not playing MUD-Post, you may just want to just stick to Sphere of Resistance since the symmetry is harder to tilt).

[TheBoozeCube]

Snow-Post gets around the problem by running Green Sun's Zenith instead of Ancient Stirrings because resolving Primeval Titan in a deck like this is a difficult card for an opponent to catch up to even if they respond to the Trigger with Swords to Plowshares. I've played your deck before and know your deck is closer to Modern Tron or even MUD-Post, so I know why you opt out of it, but at the same time, generally Titan clinches many more games because he finds what you need when you need it.

That being said, while I can understand why you don't play Primeval Titan, Karn Liberated (at least in the side) is a significant threat that opponents have to solve or be stripped from the game. I've played it in MUD-Post, 12-Post, and Modern Tron, and Karn is powerhouse.

Also, if you want to talk about alternate threats than Primeval Titan or even supplements to the Eldrazi, you should look into what MUD-Post decks play.

Sundering Titan wrecks color intense decks (especially if you want to combo it with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to give yourself Strip Mine and let all your lands tap for mana).
Steel Hellkite is a 5/5 flying Powder Keg.
Wurmcoil Engine is one of the best generic beaters because of huge life swings on a big body (although Thragtusk is useful in that spot as well).
Lodestone Golem is a rare Taxes with legs (although since you're not playing MUD-Post, you may just want to just stick to Sphere of Resistance since the symmetry is harder to tilt).


My build definitely has a lower threat density than a lot of lists. Most of the time, this doesn't hinder me too much because I have more ways to find my Eldrazi (more tutors to find Eye of Ugin and Ancient Stirrings to dig deep). But the Primeval Titan in my SB is definitely in a flex slot, and I've been looking at new options.

The main thing I've been considering for that spot lately is Oblivion Stone. A few people at my LGS have taken to playing Dragon Stompy. While K-Grip kills Blood Moon, it doesn't hit Magus of the Moon. I also often need K-Grip to kill Chalice of the Void, as setting it to 1 blanks most of my deck. Usually, the only way I can win this matchup has been to survive long enough to make seven land drops so that I can cast All Is Dust. Exploration is a big help here if I open with it, but it's usually a brick after T2. O-Stone is cheap enough that I can play and activate it before dying to beats and it blows up Chalices too. I figure it's also reasonable against Sneak and Show (which is one of the main reasons I added Titan in the first place), Elves, Goblins, and random decks.

Lodestone Golem is actually a very intriguing idea. Storm has always been my worst matchup besides Lands. It's gotten much, much better since I've gone to my current configuration with 4x Sphere of Resistance. But I'm always looking to improve my odds, since I'm usually going to need to win in 3. And it seems excellent against Elves too.

I've often considered Karn Liberated but never actually tested him. My reasoning for excluding him is that I don't really need much spot removal because All Is Dust wrecks just about everything for the same mana (or less, because the Eye serves as a virtual mana source). What matchups/situations have you found Karn to be particularly useful?

[Kirika]

In my experience, this deck has two tough matchups from commonly played decks:

BUG Delver
Elves!


Omnitell and MUD are also very bad but thankfully are not commonly played.

I personally would much rather face Burn, ANT & Belcher than BUG delver and Elves.

I think the games that are hardest to win vs BUG delver are the ones where they attack your hand via Thoughseize/Hymn/V.Clique.
If they have any pressure at all to back up the hand disruption, it's almost impossible to win.

Your best bet is to play around LD in the matchup via basics, smart fetching, crop rotations and try to resolve S&T into a Titan.
You will RARELY get to hard cast a Primetime in the BUG Delver matchup due to hand disruption, wastelands and the delver/goyf clock (as well as FoW/daze/Liliana).

I sideboard in: 1 Relic, 1 Revoker (for DRS/liliana/chumping), 1 Moment's peace. I take out 2 Expedition Map and 1 Candelabra (I only run 1) because they are not great at keeping you alive early and also 2 of them grow Goyf by sacrifice. Also they have decays fwiw.

Bug Delver I'm finding is the worst match up. You want to not play into Daze/Spell Pierce but then you get hit by Hymm to Torach. Needle is a bit overworked since you want to name Wasteland but they also have Liliana and possibly Jace with Abrupt decays.

Elves I think you board in Force of Will and Flusterstorm for Glimpse and Natural Order. Haven't played the match up yet since I just started with this deck a few weeks ago.

[Mockingbird]

I've often considered Karn Liberated but never actually tested him. My reasoning for excluding him is that I don't really need much spot removal because All Is Dust wrecks just about everything for the same mana (or less, because the Eye serves as a virtual mana source). What matchups/situations have you found Karn to be particularly useful?

Mostly control and big stompy decks: MUD, Mirror, decks where pecking at their hand because they let you live too long gives them never ending grief (Miracles comes to mind). He's not as good against decks that consistently win T3 or sooner (burn, Show and Tell, and storm come to mind) unless they stall out and you get a chance to start draining their resources, but that's not always something to bank on.

[Zotmaster]

Work been taxing me hard lately but lately it loosened up. Still no time for weekend events sadly, but with weekly magic being possible I am back to testing and theorycrafting.

Have been looking again at bonfire and testing Kurkesh. Results are intriguing.

I'm curious if you've ever tried Rings of Brighthearth. I've never tested any build even like what you appear to be trying so I'm just throwing the card out there, but if copying artifact abilities is appealing to you, even at an extra mana, Rings can do all that and more...even allowing corner cases like a double Karakas or Eye of Ugin activation or something.


I've often considered Karn Liberated but never actually tested him. My reasoning for excluding him is that I don't really need much spot removal because All Is Dust wrecks just about everything for the same mana (or less, because the Eye serves as a virtual mana source). What matchups/situations have you found Karn to be particularly useful?


Mostly control and big stomy decks: MUD, Mirror, decks where pecking at their hand because they let you live too long gives them never ending grief (Miracles comes to mind). He's not as good against decks that consistently win T3 or sooner (burn, Show and Tell, and storm come to mind) unless they stall out and you get a chance to start draining their resources, but that's not always something to bank on.

Adding to what Mockingbird said, I find Karn comes in almost all the time. In fact, I've sort of formed a "best friend team" - to steal a term from Elves - of Karn and Ensnaring Bridge. Basically, when one comes in, I almost always bring in the other. Karn is one of the only playable planeswalkers that, bar none, absolutely wins the game if left unchecked. Unlike, say, Jace the Mind Sculptor, Karn's ultimate can be online on his third turn on the board. Our gameplan can be simply put as "take enough turns to cast the things that win the game", so Karn is just one more "thing to cast that wins the game". Your mileage may vary, but I find it to be quite effective.

[Davek]

I've been testing a mini transformational sideboard to improve the BGx matchups, adding Thespian's Stage and Dark Depth to the mix to have another angle of attack and to force opponents to be careful about how to use their wastelands. In my few tests it looks promising.

[Postman]

I lost against Burn and Maverick a few days ago, running the standard Rock-Lee-List (UG build). Only little changes in the SB. Both MU seem to be difficult? Burn uses Price of Progress during my Upkeep when Chasm leaves battlefield, Maverick destroys Pithing Needle with Pridemage and abuses Knight of the R. to fetch Wastelands / Karakas :-/ Any ideas for SB - improvement?

[maCHOOga]

Has anyone ever tried to play the UG Post build versus affinity? My friend and I had some playtest matches before a tournament where we paired in the final round. Overall between sideboarded matches I think it was affinity 4 UG post 1.

It's essentially 12 must interact with threats while you try to assemble show and tell anything. glacial chasm shuts off the aggro plan, but tezzerator just trumps clasm.

One sideboarded game, I had pithing needle on cranial playing, Krosan grip for a ravager and then took 18 from a tez ultimate lol!

[TimHarding]

My SB at the moment is:

4x Force of Will
3x Swan Song
1x Pithing Needle
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Flusterstorm
1x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Krosan Grip

@ Burn: I have a very high win % against burn and the way I defend is by only getting chasm in response to PoP. I find a crop, and hold it and a green up, for the entire game. I'll mull to it sometimes. Meanwhile I guiltlessly pile up GPs to stay afloat until landing a Titan. You typically shouldn't have to chasm so early that it's hard to recover. If SnT is there, great. I board in 4x Force of Will, 2 Fluster, 1 BEB and sometimes Grip if I see Vortex.

@ Maverick: This is a tougher MU but luckily it's rare/a bad deck. I play 3 needle in the 75 and that's a great card. Otherwise fetch out all basics and try and assemble SnT Titan. They usually don't have much pressure. So sitting with uncracked fetches until hardcast Titan isn't a terrible plan. But as you found, needle is no crutch in the MU. Moments peace is great, but your best cards are basic lands and SnT. I bring in 4x Force, 2 Grip, 1 Needle.

@ Affinity: Affinity is a very easy MU, but you're right Tezz Affinity is much different. First, turn 3 SnT almost always out races them. Otherwise, for the aggro plan (all hyper aggro really) I just hold green and crop up for the whole game to avoid big turns, get chasm and move on. For Tezz I always name him with needle, even before I see him. Otherwise ill board in force just for him - he's a very tough card for us to beat. All other cards don't really matter they're pretty weak. Moments peace is again great here too. I like to bring in 4x Force, 2x Grip, 2x EE, and 1 Needle.

These MUs are all very winnable, even before board choices. They just have more specific paths with the MD cards.

For me I like to play 3 total Needle and always board Force of Will. They may not be pinpoint tech against the format, but they really go a long way to beat Janky Teir 2 decks that have one random set of cards that can give you trouble out of nowhere.

What I am having trouble with is Food Chain - anyone else?

[PilotChick]

So I finally read all 108 pages and I'm ready to post my first post in the post thread! (Say that 3 times fast)
Hey everyone. Been playing magic for about a year but only legacy for a few months. I can't get enough of this deck; it really is a blast to play and this thread has been immensely helpful. Rock lee you are a celebrity to me.
If anyone is curious, "is this deck playable without candelabra" was asked about 8 times.
I've been screen shotting and trying everyone's list as I go along. So far I've been playing with a pretty stock UG list. Looking forward to your next build rock!

[Mockingbird]

What I am having trouble with is Food Chain - anyone else?

Phyrexian Revoker the Food Chain. It's also one of the few decks where you'll get the chance to Mindbreak Trap Emrakul because Misthollow Griffin has to be cast so many times.

I haven't run into it much, but I've played around with it after Rock Lee lost T2 against it's godhand of T2 Emrakul at a major event. In all honesty it's pretty close to us being a control deck that sometimes explodes a lot sooner than anyone was expecting. So right now I treat it like a mirror match: choke their mana (instead of Cloudpost, Food Chain), then grind better than they grind back.

P.S. The most annoying aspect of Food Chain is Force of Will has the perfect blue card to exile, which makes it more utility than control unlike every other deck that plays Force that I can recall.

[sauce]

G1 vs Food chain is almost always a loss. You can win G1 w/ quick Titan into hardcast Emrakul though (obv.)
SB games is where Phyrexian revoker, FoW/Swan song and K-Grip shine. Only spell that matters is the namesake enchantment.
I have had success vs it personally while repealing their Noble hierarchs and Deathrites aggressively so they don't have mana advantage and dudes in play in case they drop Food chain.
Also, once they are threatening to go off by having a dude in play and access to 3 mana, you need to have your answers (counterspell, k-grip or repeal on dude to buy a turn.)

[kingtk3]

As a food chain player I would like to point out that there are some different version of the deck: the most prominent, which is also the oldest, is the one aiming to combo off as fast as possible, thus playing cards like fierce empath and Æthersnipe which are "bad" cards if food chain isn't in play.

The other version is the value build, which opts to play some number of cascades to assemble a critical mass of creatures and value (ancestral vision, manipulate fate) that can win you the game even without food chain.

The former is better at comboing, but food chain combo is slow for legacy and its B plan (aka creatures) is significanly worse. The latter, while having less probabilities to combo because it has to draw naturally both food chain and a fatty, is instad packed with good creatures (shardless, bloodbraid, DRS, vendilion) and it's more like a value deck that can win on the spot if it hits the combo (and even having only griffins and food chain in play it's almost a win).

If you face the first build you can win as you can manage food chain, but if you face the value build you can be trampled by the pure mass of creatures even without them casting food chain.

[Maagler]

Has anyone tried Summoning Trap in this deck? Seems like a flashed in Eldrazi or primetime would be pretty good.

Could be considered primetime 5-8?

[Postman]

Never tried the Trap. I think a) it's difficult to find a slot for it, and b) there a only 6 creatures in the deck, so it could often fizzle

[Maagler]

Never tried the Trap. I think a) it's difficult to find a slot for it, and b) there a only 6 creatures in the deck, so it could often fizzle

For arguments sake top and brainstorm help it out a bit.

[Postman]

Top, Brainstorms, Titans are great cards themselves, but a single Trap needs other cards to be good ;-)

[Postman]

BTW : take a look at See the Unwritten from Khans of Tarkir, looks at 8 cards

[Maagler]

BTW : take a look at See the Unwritten from Khans of Tarkir, looks at 8 cards

Yeah that's what made me think of Summoning Trap. The Khans one is a sorcery, I think the instant speed beats out the extra card. I might try it next week at the local.

[Maagler]

So I have been tinkering with tangle wire in the deck for a little while, and I like it but I am interested in making it a little smoother.

Some of the key plays deck:

-bouncing tangle wire back to hand with a chain of vapor or repeal
-Stacking multiple tangle wire to lock out the game
- Making as many land-drops while your opponent is locked out
- landing a hay-maker after tangle wire is no long necessary
- being less effected by your tanglewire because of candle
- being able to bounce your own candle 7 different ways


Tangle wire can time walk many opponents (think delver or mid range) for multiple turns while you make your land drops. if they are doing things (like waste landing you) they are not feeding the wire making their play net-neutral rather than gains for them. After you have taken enough turns to have sufficient land-drops you start dropping bombs like karn and titain. #winning?

1 Karakas
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
3 Island
4 Tropical island
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Eye of Ugin

4 Primeval Titain
1 Emmy
1 Kozilek

2 Karn Liberated
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle
2 Candelabra of Tawnos

4 Chain of vapor
3 Repeal
4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation


Sideboard:

4 Force of will
3 Fluster Storm
3 Swan Song
3 Ensnaring bridge
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Karn Liberated


Thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.

Edit: lists are cool.

[PilotChick]

So I have been tinkering with tangle wire in the deck for a little while, and I like it but I am interested in making it a little smoother.

Some of the key plays deck:

-bouncing tangle wire back to hand with a chain of vapor or repeal
-Stacking multiple tangle wire to lock out the game
- Making as many land-drops while your opponent is locked out
- landing a hay-maker after tangle wire is no long necessary
- being less effected by your tanglewire because of candle
- being able to bounce your own candle 7 different ways


Tangle wire can time walk many opponents (think delver or mid range) for multiple turns while you make your land drops. if they are doing things (like waste landing you) they are not feeding the wire making their play net-neutral rather than gains for them. After you have taken enough turns to have sufficient land-drops you start dropping bombs like karn and titain. #winning?

1 Karakas
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
3 Island
4 Tropical island
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Eye of Ugin

4 Primeval Titain
1 Emmy
1 Kozilek

2 Karn Liberated
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle
2 Candelabra of Tawnos

4 Chain of vapor
3 Repeal
4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation


Sideboard:

4 Force of will
3 Fluster Storm
3 Swan Song
3 Ensnaring bridge
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Karn Liberated


Thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.

Edit: lists are cool.

No bojuka mb or sb? Meta call or do you have another strategy?

[Maagler]

No bojuka mb or sb? Meta call or do you have another strategy?

Bog should be in there somewhere, probably in the place of a vesuva. I originally didn't add it because I was interested in emphasizing the tangle wire. the decks where tangle wire is good bog isn't and vice versa.

[sauce]

I finally bought Show and tells and Misty rainforests on MTGO and decided to take them for a spin.

I have recorded 7 videos yesterday of me playing UG post vs random/unknown opponents. Out of them the first 2 were recorded incorrectly and did not get uploaded because of that. They were vs TES and vs the Mirror. (I won both.)

The reasons I am recording:

To practice and have fun with the deck
To teach and share with others
To learn from your feedback
I do not have time to stream or play dailies because it is currently difficult for me to carve out a 3-4 hour block of time due to other life obligations (kid/wife/job)

I will be uploading more into that playlist and posting about it on this thread when they are ready.

The playlist -- http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLLitlJSHrqxtuvgMejKQ65OWRL5my7utn

NEW Videos (from 2014-09-04)

vs Burn -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbTi0de_-VI

vs UW/r Thopter Blade -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrxlAnELI00

vs RUG Delver (budgety version?) -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erz8rjRTyqc

vs Miracles -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0hJQcMliFY

vs BUG Walkers -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1SugxOCJ6U

vs BUG Delver -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd6pqMGEncw


OLD Videos (from v3 client)

There are some older videos from the v3 client in there. They do not have Show and tells so YMMV. :)

[PilotChick]

I finally bought Show and tells and Misty rainforests on MTGO and decided to take them for a spin.

I have recorded 7 videos yesterday of me playing UG post vs random/unknown opponents. Out of them the first 2 were recorded incorrectly and did not get uploaded because of that. They were vs TES and vs the Mirror. (I won both.)

The reasons I am recording:

To practice and have fun with the deck
To teach and share with others
To learn from your feedback
I do not have time to stream or play dailies because it is currently difficult for me to carve out a 3-4 hour block of time due to other life obligations (kid/wife/job)

I will be uploading more into that playlist and posting about it on this thread when they are ready.

The playlist -- http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLLitlJSHrqxtuvgMejKQ65OWRL5my7utn

NEW Videos (from 2014-09-04)

vs Burn -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbTi0de_-VI

vs UW/r Thopter Blade -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrxlAnELI00

vs RUG Delver (budgety version?) -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erz8rjRTyqc

vs Miracles -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0hJQcMliFY

vs BUG Walkers -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1SugxOCJ6U

vs BUG Delver -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd6pqMGEncw


OLD Videos (from v3 client)

There are some older videos from the v3 client in there. They do not have Show and tells so YMMV. :)

Love watching these videos! Thanks for uploading. It's how I learned half of how to play this deck.

I went 2 - 1 - 0 last night at a local shop. Was up against janky death and taxes (2-0) dark maverick (0-2) (first game we played he kept a hand with 2 wastelands and topdecked a third) and last was 'murica delver (2-1)
I won 5 dollars. Which was my entry fee.
This is significant however, because it's the first time I've won anything, ever, playing magic.
Oh, my list is pretty stock UG.
Goona remake it today I think...

Just another observation, reading the other primers for other decks, one of the ways we do so well I think is that so many other decks seem to fundamentally misunderstand how we play.
Like, a lot of the matchup analysis have us pegged banking on SnT'ing eldrazis into play... :rolleyes: oh well. Their misunderstanding is our advantage I guess

[fdiv_bug]

I have recorded 7 videos yesterday of me playing UG post vs random/unknown opponents.

Haven't had a chance to watch these yet, but they look really great, and I wanted to thank you for sharing!

[sauce]

Forgot to mention, this is the list (with a slightly modified sideboard):
http://mtgpulse.com/event/17461#247319

It's the same 60 maindeck from my 9th place finish at SCG DFW Aug 2014.

[Lemnear]

I have recorded 7 videos yesterday of me playing UG post vs random/unknown opponents. Out of them the first 2 were recorded incorrectly and did not get uploaded because of that. They were vs TES and vs the Mirror. (I won both.)

I have always a hard time understanding how to ever beat storm with 12-Post. Could you please share what you remember from that match?

[sauce]

I have always a hard time understanding how to ever beat storm with 12-Post. Could you please share what you remember from that match?

It's fairly straight forward, 15 cards come in.

Preboard:

http://www.berzerk.org/12post/12post-maindeck.png

Postboard config vs TES/ANT/Belcher/Doom

http://www.berzerk.org/12post/12post-postboard-vs-storm.png

The premise is to try and stick a SDT and float either Flusterstorm, Swan song or FoW on top of your deck instead of in hand so they cannot duress you and then kill you.
They usually have to/will go all in eventually and one counterspell is usually a 5 for 1 if not 7 for 1.
You can win at your leisure with Trinket beats or Revoker. Revoker names LED.

I only lost once to any storm deck ever with 12 post. It was Belcher in 3 games where g3 he was on the play and turn 1 killed me.

[sauce]

Just posted a video vs "Goblins" (in quotes because it's not a typical Goblins build)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uvXYldzXL4

[P-E]

It's fairly straight forward, 15 cards come in.

Preboard:

http://www.berzerk.org/12post/12post-maindeck.png

Postboard config vs TES/ANT/Belcher/Doom

http://www.berzerk.org/12post/12post-postboard-vs-storm.png

The premise is to try and stick a SDT and float either Flusterstorm, Swan song or FoW on top of your deck instead of in hand so they cannot duress you and then kill you.
They usually have to/will go all in eventually and one counterspell is usually a 5 for 1 if not 7 for 1.
You can win at your leisure with Trinket beats or Revoker. Revoker names LED.

I only lost once to any storm deck ever with 12 post. It was Belcher in 3 games where g3 he was on the play and turn 1 killed me.

From what i know TES/ANT/Belcher run Xantid swarm so floating a counter seems useless to me. Maybe i'm missing a point but Xantid and slow clock for you i can't see how post can win against Storm.

[sauce]

From what i know TES/ANT/Belcher run Xantid swarm so floating a counter seems useless to me. Maybe i'm missing a point but Xantid and slow clock for you i can't see how post can win against Storm.

Xantid swarm is a problem for sure, you have to counter it/repeal it/EE it or hope they dont draw it.
You can also try to get relic in play and not let them go down the PiF plan if they have Xantid swarm.
If they make goblins you can EE/moment's peace/Glacial chasm.
If they do not have swarm though, the game is much easier. I have repealed Xantid swarm 2x and then Vensered it and opponent decided to go for it while I had FoW on top and SDT in play.

[sauce]

More videos:


vs Enchantress - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb5NpyzoF1o
vs Hypergenesis - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzqG-9RtflE

[sauce]

what just happened with Kevin Hart, he forgot that Moment's Peace has flashback? ugh

[Postman]

Same question here, too. Looked like a win, and suddenly Mr. Hunt quits? :-/

[Darkenslight]

There was also the SnT misplay with Blood Moon out.

[endqwerty]

Whooo!!! Sauce, you sir, are a godsend. No, not the artifact... maybe... I don't judge, well I do actually, but anyways :)

Thanks, I've always wanted to see some 12 post videos with actual though involved in the commentating.

[J-Funk]

That camera match was so brutal to watch. Maybe it was the pressure of being on camera.

Multiple misuses of top (or lack of use), but the biggest one was trying to keep his opp from recasting blood moon. He had a needle in hand, just run it out naming Quirion Ranger. Force him to draw the land.

[Davek]

From what i know TES/ANT/Belcher run Xantid swarm so floating a counter seems useless to me. Maybe i'm missing a point but Xantid and slow clock for you i can't see how post can win against Storm.

Hi there my cockatrice fellow :)

i've started using Extract in my sideboard as a pretty efficient way to kill all those decks in a row. Turn 1, blue source -> Extract -> if ANT, remove Tendrils/if TES, remove Ad Nauseam/if Doomsday, remove Ideas Unbound/ if Omnitell, remove Emrakul -> mostly gg against them all.

[P-E]

Hey davek

How many extract in the board? What is B plan if tendrils is in hand? :)
I like the card but unless you play 2-3 in side it will arrive too late no?
But as storm is the worst MU maybe you have enough space for that

[Davek]

B-plan is extracting Ad Nauseam, permanently removing their best draw engine. In this way you'll force them to go to the Pif route, so your Crop Rotation become your best counterspells. C-plan (if both Ad Nauseam and Tendrils are in their hand) is removing Pif, of course. I know it's a high risk card, but it's fun to see the face of your opponent when you play it.

[203995014]

That camera match was so brutal to watch. Maybe it was the pressure of being on camera.

Multiple misuses of top (or lack of use), but the biggest one was trying to keep his opp from recasting blood moon. He had a needle in hand, just run it out naming Quirion Ranger. Force him to draw the land.

I just went back to the stream, watched the beginning of the match.

"Turn 1 glimmerpost on the play, Pithing Needles naming Wasteland"

...I'm just done. I just shut off the stream after that. I can't stand to watch some dude terribly misinformed about this deck try and play it.

Later I turned it back on hoping it was just a single misplay and hopefully he wasn't as bad as I thought he would be and he is just conceding with MOMENT'S PEACE IN THE GRAVEYARD.

[endqwerty]

What would you rather do turn one? I see that you don't like that play and can sort of understand why, but I often do it myself if I feel that as long as I'm protected from wasteland I'll be able to go off. What would you do instead? or if going back is too hard (it is or I would list the cards for you) maybe what would you prefer?

[Postman]

I agree with endqwerty! It's the normal way you play game 1 against unknown deck. Absolutly no reason to laugh at Mr Hunt.

[TimHarding]

I agree with endqwerty! It's the normal way you play game 1 against unknown deck. Absolutly no reason to laugh at Mr Hunt.

You guys are dead wrong, and this isn't exclusive to post. If you're playing an unknown opponent you want to have the tools to react what to what they are doing. The only way to be proactive to unknown threats is to give yourself options. That T1 play is the "belcher" way to play post and you will only be as successful as your luck is when doing that. The play was terrible. Goldfishing.

The 'normal' way to play to play an unknown opponent is to fetch a basic (if you really think wining is only contingent on wasteland), and have options to REACT: crop in case of blowout from graveyard, legends, or high damage, repeal for threats and top/storm to dig and protect from black. If the hand can't provide you with these options against the unknown - don't keep it.

Even if you are so stuck on playing needle on wasteland. At least play it after you know the card is in their deck, which can be known turn 2, after you've played a basic.

[Lemnear]

Hi there my cockatrice fellow :)

i've started using Extract in my sideboard as a pretty efficient way to kill all those decks in a row. Turn 1, blue source -> Extract -> if ANT, remove Tendrils/if TES, remove Ad Nauseam/if Doomsday, remove Ideas Unbound/ if Omnitell, remove Emrakul -> mostly gg against them all.

Tbh, none of these plays except removing the ToA from ANT, is really backbreaking. You overrate the importance of the engine cards here.


It's fairly straight forward, 15 cards come in.

Preboard:

http://www.berzerk.org/12post/12post-maindeck.png

Postboard config vs TES/ANT/Belcher/Doom

http://www.berzerk.org/12post/12post-postboard-vs-storm.png

The premise is to try and stick a SDT and float either Flusterstorm, Swan song or FoW on top of your deck instead of in hand so they cannot duress you and then kill you.
They usually have to/will go all in eventually and one counterspell is usually a 5 for 1 if not 7 for 1.
You can win at your leisure with Trinket beats or Revoker. Revoker names LED.

I only lost once to any storm deck ever with 12 post. It was Belcher in 3 games where g3 he was on the play and turn 1 killed me.

Hmmm, with Xantid + Pithing Needle in storm SBS these days, I wouldn't count on the SDT-trick as it is well-known. Also it sounds too optimistic to have the SDT+floated counter and/or Revoker set up in a timeframe that matters. If your opponent is as dumb to let you play for 5 turns unmolested and then decides to go all-in blindly against SDT in play, you can't help them anymore :)

[sauce]

Tbh, none of these plays except removing the ToA from ANT, is really backbreaking. You overrate the importance of the engine cards here.



Hmmm, with Xantid + Pithing Needle in storm SBS these days, I wouldn't count on the SDT-trick as it is well-known. Also it sounds too optimistic to have the SDT+floated counter and/or Revoker set up in a timeframe that matters. If your opponent is as dumb to let you play for 5 turns unmolested and then decides to go all-in blindly against SDT in play, you can't help them anymore :)


I do not disagree that it's not going to happen often but that's the goal you should be working towards every game and evaluating your opening hands based on that.
Obviously if I have any kind of interaction post board, I will be keeping the hand.
And of course, storm players don't always get the nut hands either of t1 Xantid swarm, t2 Kill you.

[sauce]

You guys are dead wrong, and this isn't exclusive to post. If you're playing an unknown opponent you want to have the tools to react what to what they are doing. The only way to be proactive to unknown threats is to give yourself options. That T1 play is the "belcher" way to play post and you will only be as successful as your luck is when doing that. The play was terrible. Goldfishing.

The 'normal' way to play to play an unknown opponent is to fetch a basic (if you really think wining is only contingent on wasteland), and have options to REACT: crop in case of blowout from graveyard, legends, or high damage, repeal for threats and top/storm to dig and protect from black. If the hand can't provide you with these options against the unknown - don't keep it.

Even if you are so stuck on playing needle on wasteland. At least play it after you know the card is in their deck, which can be known turn 2, after you've played a basic.

Agree w/ Tim. I never t1 Pithing needle wasteland vs unknown opponent. It is fully incorrect.

[Lemnear]

I do not disagree that it's not going to happen often but that's the goal you should be working towards every game and evaluating your opening hands based on that.
Obviously if I have any kind of interaction post board, I will be keeping the hand.
And of course, storm players don't always get the nut hands either of t1 Xantid swarm, t2 Kill you.

And in a lot of scenarios they don't even need the nut draw or the protection to outmaneuver slow hate and single angles of defense, which you should recognize.

[Davek]

Tbh, none of these plays except removing the ToA from ANT, is really backbreaking. You overrate the importance of the engine cards here.

In fact, it's mainly here to kill ANT, since the other 3 decks are pretty rare to say the minimum here. From what i know, Doomsday cannot win without Ideas Unbound, since all the combinations of cards they may want involve this card. TES is the less afflicted, but removing their best draw engine means they'll have to go to most risky way (Pif). Regarding Omnitell, consider that removing emrakul means that if they do not have the Lab Maniac version, which is the rarest to face, their only closure consist in clashing with you 20 or more times (it depends on how many glimmerposts you have dropped during the game), so it's pretty easy to reveal your own emrakul, win the clash and stop them definitely. I wouldn't totally rely on this card, of course, my sb is filled with classical counterspells, but it's better than you may think :)

[sauce]

And in a lot of scenarios they don't even need the nut draw or the protection to outmaneuver slow hate and single angles of defense, which you should recognize.

Okay, so if I mulligan into relic or 1 counterspell, it already buys me a ton of time because you cannot beat relic w/o Ad Nauseam since PiF is dead and you cannot beat 1 counterspell w/o Xantid swarm and/or duress.
If I have SDT/Brainstorm it makes duress not a thing. So you have to basically have Xantid swarm and me not have relic for you to go down the Ad nauseam route to win the game.
That also implies you understand that this is the route the game is going to develop in if both players get at least some part of what they need to play magic.
Obviously t1 kills and/or bad keeps for 12 post side will skew these results.
Xantid swarm is by far the most effective way to defeat 12 post post board.

[The Spanish Tunnel King]

Hey guys! Just started playing the deck and it seems pretty sweet/fun/REALLY GOOD :D. A few comments/questions!


Agree w/ Tim. I never t1 Pithing needle wasteland vs unknown opponent. It is fully incorrect.

Maybe you have a great hand full of non-basics and a needle. Is it a mull?


In fact, it's mainly here to kill ANT, since the other 3 decks are pretty rare to say the minimum here. From what i know, Doomsday cannot win without Ideas Unbound, since all the combinations of cards they may want involve this card. TES is the less afflicted, but removing their best draw engine means they'll have to go to most risky way (Pif). Regarding Omnitell, consider that removing emrakul means that if they do not have the Lab Maniac version, which is the rarest to face, their only closure consist in clashing with you 20 or more times (it depends on how many glimmerposts you have dropped during the game), so it's pretty easy to reveal your own emrakul, win the clash and stop them definitely. I wouldn't totally rely on this card, of course, my sb is filled with classical counterspells, but it's better than you may think :)

As an avid storm player, Doomsday is not shut down by removing Ideas unbound unless they dont really know what they are doing. The cheapest piles are double cantrip ones (eg top in play, brainstorm in hand) , for what its worth... TES I also dont think is hit very hard by it (can tutor chain/BW as primary wincon). But yes, I suspect its good vs ANT and the other ones dont see too much play (although I suspect TES is the best storm deck...). Be aware that ANT might bring in another copy of tendrils along with Bob as a grind plan. Its quite an old plan now, but might be played :). Storm is used to plowing through 2-3 counterspells on a go off, and the clock isnt so strong, so it can be quite a challenge to kill them in time. Also FWIW, I played around with both sides of the matchup (storm vs
Eldrazi) quite a lot recently, and the match certainly seems to be in storms favour. Like all matchups against storm though, is pretty skill dependent. The Eldrazi certainly have a lot of tricks up their sleeves (if plane devouring monsters do have sleeves XD).


Okay, so if I mulligan into relic or 1 counterspell, it already buys me a ton of time because you cannot beat relic w/o Ad Nauseam since PiF is dead and you cannot beat 1 counterspell w/o Xantid swarm and/or duress.
If I have SDT/Brainstorm it makes duress not a thing. So you have to basically have Xantid swarm and me not have relic for you to go down the Ad nauseam route to win the game.
That also implies you understand that this is the route the game is going to develop in if both players get at least some part of what they need to play magic.
Obviously t1 kills and/or bad keeps for 12 post side will skew these results.
Xantid swarm is by far the most effective way to defeat 12 post post board.

What you say is true, but they'll bring 11 or so cards vs counters G2-3 and still be trying actively to kill you from turns 2-3.

Anyway, like I say, loving playing the deck (crop rotation is a house :D), just thought id add some more input from the storm side!

The Spanish Tunnel King

[sauce]

Hey guys! Just started playing the deck and it seems pretty sweet/fun/REALLY GOOD :D. A few comments/questions!

Maybe you have a great hand full of non-basics and a needle. Is it a mull?


No, it's not a mull. Let's consider these hands:

Hand 1:

Lands: Cloudpost, Vesuva, Tropical Island
Spells: Needle, Primeval Titan, Crop rotation, Crop rotation

On the play my line vs unknown is probably Tropical Island, GO. I don't particularly want them to spend their 1st turn wastelanding Cloudpost because I have no S&T for my Titan so I naturally want to resolve him.
I won't play Pithing needle for certain since I have 2 Crop rotations and also have no reason to believe opponent is playing wasteland or even has one in his hand. So casting needle is just throwing away a card here.
This is the easiest/clearest scenario though.

On the draw you get information to know whether you should be needling or not. However, this hand has 2 crop rotations and you want them to waste their land drop and give your Crop rotation value. I am not going to run my Crop rotation into a counterspell and typically I only play it reactively or in dire circumstances vs decks that have counterspells.
If opponent opens up on Volcanic island -> Delver of secrets, I still think you play Tropical and say go. The reason is if you go Tropical Island -> Needle and it gets dazed and then they untap and wasteland you, you're f**ked.
The reason is your 2 crop rotations do nothing now and you have no way protect your Cloudpost. Vesuva can only copy Volcanic island now which still does not give you green next turn. Again this shows why you do not play t1 Needle even when it may seem like the correct play.

Hand 2:

Lands: Cloudpost, Island, Bojuka Bog, Karakas
Spells: Sensei's Divining Top, Show and tell, Pithing needle

On the play, it is straightforward, Island -> SDT, GO. There is no way you do anything else here. If for example the SDT in hand was Crop rotation or Trinket Mage or another currently uncastable thing, I would mulligan. If SDT was a Map, I would keep and play map, passing turn. This would be a much weaker hand though.

On the draw, based on what opponent did, I would decide. If opponent went T1 Delver or DRS, I would most likely play Island and Needle on either DRS or Wasteland (if Delver was played). If needle gets dazed, you're OK because you get to most likely untap, draw and play Karakas and SDT to play around another daze. If needle resolves, you're in good shape here.

Hand 3:

Lands: Misty Rainforest, Misty Rainforest, Cloudpost, Eye of Ugin
Spells: Brainstorm, Pithing needle, Show and Tell

On the play, easiest Misty GO of my life with the plan of not casting anything until I draw for my 2nd turn. Once I draw, I may crack Misty and based on what opponent played I would decide to Brainstorm first and then cast needle (if necessary) or just Brainstorm and go from there. The goal is to get Eye out of my hand though and shuffle it.

On the draw, definitely get a lot more information, but most likely won't need to play needle for a while here since you want to maximize your brainstorm and find something to S&T.

Hand 4:

Lands: Cloudpost, Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Eye of Ugin
Spells: Ulamog, Pithing needle, Candelabra of Tawnos

:-) I had to put this one in here.

On the play, easiest Glimmerpost -> Pithing needle on wasteland of my life.

On the draw, if not threatened by Wasteland (ie playing vs something like Elves or Burn) then most likely Cloudpost go. If threatened and you don't draw a Trop/Misty/Basic land, then you still slam Glimmerpost -> Needle on wasteland because the upside is great if it works and the downside is huge with this hand if it gets wastelanded at all.

This is very high risk/high reward hand though.

[PilotChick]

I seem to recall rock Lee saying t1 blind Pithing Needle on wasteland was the play every time...

[sauce]

I seem to recall rock Lee saying t1 blind Pithing Needle on wasteland was the play every time...

From the first page of this thread:


Keep hands entirely differently based off playing or drawing.
- One of your best cards on the play is Repeal, but it becomes one of the worst on the draw.
- Against a blind opponent Pithing needle is weak on the play, but strong on the draw. The opposite is true against a known opponent.
- SDT is amazing on the play, but weaker on the draw. Despite it being weaker on the draw, it is still one of your strongest turn 1 plays.
- Hate lands, such as Tabernacle, Bog, Karakas, are stronger on the draw after they commit. Obviously Glacial chasm is weaker on the draw due to needing two land drops.

[The Spanish Tunnel King]

Cheers for the insight Sauce :). And yes, those lines make a lot of sense. The only one that makes me shudder a little is the fetch one. I know stifles aren't so prevalent as they once were, but i'd like to at least crack for basic, pass (which would be for an island in this case, I guess). But honestly, I have nightmares about stifle... :D

The Spanish Tunnel King

[sauce]

Cheers for the insight Sauce :). And yes, those lines make a lot of sense. The only one that makes me shudder a little is the fetch one. I know stifles aren't so prevalent as they once were, but i'd like to at least crack for basic, pass (which would be for an island in this case, I guess). But honestly, I have nightmares about stifle... :D

The Spanish Tunnel King

Actually, stifle on fetchland is not as brutal vs this deck even though it is annoying. Stifle is going to blow you out much harder if they stifle the Primeval titan trigger.
In general, most of the time if opponent is running stifle, it's going to get you one way or another.
Also, keeping a fetch in play is good because that means you're porting them for 1 every turn they choose to hold up stifle and it also tells you they have one in hand if they consistently hold it up.
Would you rather your opponent played t1 delver or held up stifle? The answer is obvious here. That's why I would not fetch.

[Rock Lee]

I seem to recall rock Lee saying t1 blind Pithing Needle on wasteland was the play every time...

I have said T1 blind Pithing needle on wasteland on the blind, but only if your hand can't afford to get wasted and if you have no other plays. It certainly isn't a "strong" play. A far stronger play is to fetch a Tropical Island and say go, with a Crop & needle in hand. This lets you burn their wastelands and needle real threats like Vial/Lilly/DRS.

I will sometimes blind name waste early if I have bounce spells available as I can reset them.

As Tim Harding understands how to play the deck better than anyone I've seen in person, stream, or on scg camera as yet. He understands that the strength of the deck is its reactive bounce. This is why the deck can't be effectively goldfished. Not only does it not train vital reactive skills, but the pure-combo type mindset actively builds degenerative skills. Two Fisted testing, MWS/Cockatrice, and tournament testing are your best guides for this deck, that has the best plan of any deck, of not having a plan.

[TheBoozeCube]

Agree w/ Tim. I never t1 Pithing needle wasteland vs unknown opponent. It is fully incorrect.

I disagree. T1 Pithing Needle is a perfectly acceptable play when you have (A) the kind of proactive hand that will win quickly against most decks as long as they don't have Wasteland (example: Forest, Cloudpost, Vesuva, Vesuva, Eye of Ugin, Candelabra, Pithing Needle), (B) an otherwise solid hand but no Crop Rotation, or (C) a solid hand without colored sources (note: this probably doesn't apply as much to U/G builds). Under those circumstances, I have no problem playing the odds and blind-naming Wasteland in a meta where a sizable portion of the meta plays it. Stopping Wasteland is the primary reason to play Needle anyway; to me, everything else it hits is just gravy.

[endqwerty]

I think Rock Lee just summed up my biggest issue with playing this deck. Not having a plan. I'm just not used to it. These tips were helpful. I hope to play better in the near future. Thanks guys.

[203995014]

I disagree. T1 Pithing Needle is a perfectly acceptable play when you have (A) the kind of proactive hand that will win quickly against most decks as long as they don't have Wasteland (example: Forest, Cloudpost, Vesuva, Vesuva, Eye of Ugin, Candelabra, Pithing Needle), (B) an otherwise solid hand but no Crop Rotation, or (C) a solid hand without colored sources (note: this probably doesn't apply as much to U/G builds). Under those circumstances, I have no problem playing the odds and blind-naming Wasteland in a meta where a sizable portion of the meta plays it. Stopping Wasteland is the primary reason to play Needle anyway; to me, everything else it hits is just gravy.

Hand A: That hand is actually very bad, it requires the opponent to do literally nothing except pass lands to even have a remote chance at executing the plan.

Hand B: If it's an otherwise solid hand without crop rotation, you shouldn't need wasteland protection.

Hand C: If it didn't have colored mana it probably wasn't very good in the first place.

"Stopping Wasteland is the primary reason to play Needle anyway; to me, everything else it hits is just gravy."

That should actually be the other way around, Needles is a stall tactic and a control piece, hitting wasteland is just gravy.

[Rock Lee]

I think Rock Lee just summed up my biggest issue with playing this deck. Not having a plan. I'm just not used to it. These tips were helpful. I hope to play better in the near future. Thanks guys.

Another way to evaluate this mindset is to try to always maximize your options. Most decks operate with a basic knowledge of statistics, but this deck lives by statistics.

[sauce]

Btw, I finally got to do something insane w/ Candelabra for the first time ever in an actual tournament last Saturday.
Both Clint (caw_86) and I play in the same LGS and Clint has been playing 12Post for the last 6 months or so. We've been lucky to only play the mirror a handful of times but this time it was not to be.

G3, I was on the draw and Clint slammed a T4 Titan by having 2 Cloudposts, 2 Trops in play. He fetched up 2 more Cloudposts after thinking for a bit and shipped turn.

My board at this time was:
SDT, Vesuva (copying his Tropical island), Basic Island and a Cloudpost.

My hand was:
Repeal, Repeal, Primeval Titan, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Karakas, Swan Song

My 1 Cloudpost tapped for 5 though thanks to his 4 Cloudposts.
I brainstorm, hit Repeal, Cloudpost, Trinket Mage. Put back Brainstorm, Swan Song.
Play Cloudpost (6 total in play now).
Tap Vesuva for Blue (Trop) and Cloudpost (6), Cast Trinket Mage, have 4 Colorless floating. Go get Candelabra.
Cast Candelabra, 3 mana floating. Untap Cloudpost, Cloudpost, Vesuva (Trop). 0 Floating.

For reference, my hand is now: Repeal, Repeal, Repeal, Primeval, Karakas.

Tap Cloudpost, Cloudpost, Vesuva (Trop) for 12 Colorless + 1 Green. Repeal Candelabra, 11 colorless mana floating. Draw something (irrelevant).
Play Candelabra, 10 coloreless floating. Untap Cloudpost, Cloudpost, Vesuva (Trop), Island. 6 coloreless floating. Tap Island, Vesuva (Tropical) + 2 Cloudposts for 12 mana.
Total mana: 18 colorless, 1 blue and 1 green in pool.
Repeal (#2) Candelabra with 17 colorless, 1 green in pool. Draw something that does not matter.
Play Candelabra 16 colorless, 1 green. Tap for another 12 colorless up to 28 colorless (2 Cloudposts), 1 more blue (2 blue total now) and untap 2 Cloudposts, 1 Island and 1 Vesuva (Trop).
Mana now: 24 colorless, 1 green and 2 blue.
Tap the Vesuva (Trop), cast Primeval Titan. Total mana: 20 colorless, 2 blue.
Get Eye of Ugin, Cloudpost.
Repeal (#3) Candelabra, 19 colorless, 1 blue. (Draw something else that does not matter)
Replay Candelabra, 18 colorless, 1 blue.
Untap 3 Cloudposts, 1 Eye of Ugin, 14 colorless, 1 blue.

Clint (caw_86) scooped at this point.

I basically went from "can't possibly win" to "won the game" because of how stupid Candelabra is in this deck and especially in the mirror.
For those of you who ask "is Candelabra necessary in this deck?", this is the example you're looking for.
I've been playing this deck for 10 months every weekend and this situation has only come up once for me so far, but it would not be possible if I did not have the Candelabra and/or figured out the line.

[TheBoozeCube]

Hand A: That hand is actually very bad, it requires the opponent to do literally nothing except pass lands to even have a remote chance at executing the plan.
Drawing nothing else, that hand gives you a T4 Kozilek or Ulamog, or a T5 Emrakul. And you're going to draw cards before that. Most of the time, a hand like that should beat Delver, Stoneblade, Miracles, Jund, D&T, and other fair decks that don't kill you by T4. It's bad against combo, sure, but it's strong against a large chunk of the field.


Hand B: If it's an otherwise solid hand without crop rotation, you shouldn't need wasteland protection.
Unless I'm not playing against Wasteland in the first place, I can think of very few solid hands that wouldn't benefit from Wasteland protection. And most of those hands are off in Magical Christmasland. (I should note that I'm not playing U/G, so I don't play S&T.)


Hand C: If it didn't have colored mana it probably wasn't very good in the first place.
Like I noted, this probably doesn't apply often to U/G builds. I have a total of 11 colored cards in my maindeck. There are many, many possible hands without colored mana that I'd be perfectly happy to keep.


"Stopping Wasteland is the primary reason to play Needle anyway; to me, everything else it hits is just gravy."

That should actually be the other way around, Needles is a stall tactic and a control piece, hitting wasteland is just gravy.

I can think of only a handful of other often-played permanents that really matter enough that I would truly regret blind-naming Wasteland: Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, Jace, Lili, and Belcher. And of these, Sneak Attack is the only one I'm really afraid of. The odds of facing Belcher in any given match are pretty low. Griselbrand is powerful but easily neutralized. The decks that play Jace are already favorable matchups. And Lili is mostly scary only if Jund/BUG have nut draws (and generally favorable matchups otherwise).

[sauce]

I can think of only a handful of other often-played permanents that really matter enough that I would truly regret blind-naming Wasteland: Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, Jace, Lili, and Belcher. And of these, Sneak Attack is the only one I'm really afraid of. The odds of facing Belcher in any given match are pretty low. Griselbrand is powerful but easily neutralized. The decks that play Jace are already favorable matchups. And Lili is mostly scary only if Jund/BUG have nut draws (and generally favorable matchups otherwise).

I have needled DRS a lot more than wasteland personally w/ this deck.

[maCHOOga]

I basically went from "can't possibly win" to "won the game" because of how stupid Candelabra is in this deck and especially in the mirror.
For those of you who ask "is Candelabra necessary in this deck?", this is the example you're looking for.
I've been playing this deck for 10 months every weekend and this situation has only come up once for me so far, but it would not be possible if I did not have the Candelabra and/or figured out the line.

I agree with you, everytime I've resolved a candelbra, I've won. That's why I'm picking up the 2nd copy.

Also, was the mirror match te most ridiculous and obsurd magic game ever?!

[TheBoozeCube]

I basically went from "can't possibly win" to "won the game" because of how stupid Candelabra is in this deck and especially in the mirror.
For those of you who ask "is Candelabra necessary in this deck?", this is the example you're looking for.
I've been playing this deck for 10 months every weekend and this situation has only come up once for me so far, but it would not be possible if I did not have the Candelabra and/or figured out the line.

Yep. This is why I play the full 4x. :cool:

[caw_86]

I agree with you, everytime I've resolved a candelbra, I've won. That's why I'm picking up the 2nd copy.

Also, was the mirror match te most ridiculous and obsurd magic game ever?!

the mirror match IS the most awkward games of magic you'll probably ever play.

my game 1 against sauce, i was on the draw, he played titan on turn 4 passed with 5 posts in play, i had garden, cloud post, island, crop for post EOT, cast emrakul t4. this however was due to a rushed and/or lack there of math which could have been avoided. the first few turns are a normal game, it only gets complicated once a cloupost is in play. as you can see by both games we each played titan then died. my plan when i played titan was drop my eye next turn and win, but sadly never got another turn. i was not expecting the candle, i thought i had it wrapped when i passed to post, island, trop. i would definitely say playing your lands correctly is the most important part, thankfully mirror matches don't come up to often.

G2 i got blown out by a swan song on crop rotation on turn 2 and never recovered.

[sauce]

RockLee has warned everyone in here previously about how horrible the mirror match experience is. the only saving grace about it is it usually ends very quickly.
Most of the times you just have to not go too crazy, resolve Titan but think about what you're getting with the trigger not in terms of your own next turn, but opponent's best possible scenario on next turn in terms of mana production. Candelabra obviously should not be counted most of the time because it will pretty much always beat you.

Basically, if you are the first one to resolve Titan, you could almost always just get Eye and Karakas or something else that won't give your opponent any Cloudpost mana advantage. You have to also consider "can they crop rotate EOT" for the math, etc.
The reason is, once you Titan, you could attack next turn and get the 2 Cloudposts on your own turn to boost the mana and probably hardcast at least Ulamog if not Emrakul. IF you got a Candelabra in the mirror, it's pretty much GG.
I feel like if you don't have the Candelabra, you may as well just needle it because it's that OP.

Quick edit, I forgot to mention that I used to be one of the people who claimed you do not need Candelabra in this deck and have had a ridiculous win % w/o one. I still stand by the point that you can play w/o it, but you're not going to get the wins that it enables which may not be very often but it definitely comes up.

[Rock Lee]

Won my weekly event with this list:

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
2 [US] Show and Tell

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [ARC] Memnarch
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm

Matchups were: bye(sadly), Death and Taxes (2-0), 4 color Enchantress (2-0), and Food chain (2-0).

Highlights included Stealing Enchantress's Helm of Obedience and helm killing him. And Killing food chain with x2 revokers and x3 of their own strix/shardless. All enabled with Memnarch.

[endqwerty]

How were the 4 revokers and the 3 chain of vapors

[sauce]

New videos:


vs Monoblack - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AhxpJ8tYzM&feature=youtu.be
vs Painter - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeKIERynoDE&feature=youtu.be

[Maagler]

New videos:


vs Monoblack - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AhxpJ8tYzM&feature=youtu.be
vs Painter - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeKIERynoDE&feature=youtu.be



Your videos = better than Netflix

thanks!

[sauce]

Your videos = better than Netflix

thanks!

Thank you. I got another another video vs Painter (rw) coming up as we speak.

[sauce]

vs Painter (Rw) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=633k1f8OI1s&feature=youtu.be

[Rock Lee]

How were the 4 revokers and the 3 chain of vapors

Amazing beyond words. There are no matchups where you need both, so the copy doesn't hurt you. Revoker simply transforms bad matchups into unlosable matchups. And CoV/Revoker cover pithing needle's needs.

[PilotChick]

Finally a new rock lee build! Can't wait to try it out :tongue:

[Rock Lee]

I changed it slightly for Tuesday's weekly event. dropped 1 repeal for 1 vesuva. and the sideboard went upto 3 bebs, down to 2 EE, no flusters. Liked it more by far. Got 2nd due to some unfortunate rng of my opponent nut drawing and the next game me drawing zero lands or mapsin 7 turns.

[TheBoozeCube]

With all the flavor in KTK pointing towards Ugin and a return of the Eldrazi, I know I can't be the only one excited about the possibilities of getting some powerful new toys for our favorite archetype -- especially new incarnations of the legendary Eldrazi to tutor up. More immediately, I also would not be surprised to see Ugin himself show up by the end of this block, likely as a large colorless planeswalker at a power level on par with Karn or Bolas. Obviously this is pure speculation, but if we do in fact get Ugin, what kind of abilities do y'all think would be most useful here?

[sauce]

With all the flavor in KTK pointing towards Ugin and a return of the Eldrazi, I know I can't be the only one excited about the possibilities of getting some powerful new toys for our favorite archetype -- especially new incarnations of the legendary Eldrazi to tutor up. More immediately, I also would not be surprised to see Ugin himself show up by the end of this block, likely as a large colorless planeswalker at a power level on par with Karn or Bolas. Obviously this is pure speculation, but if we do in fact get Ugin, what kind of abilities do y'all think would be most useful here?

+1: Fog for next turn
-X: Tutoring for a colorless card from your library into your hand.
-Y: Reveal any number of colorless cards from your hand, make 1 colorless mana for each card revealed
-Ultimate: Play colorless card from hand for free & Timewalk

That would make me so happy.

[lotushead666]

Looking to start playing this deck as I am sick of playing OmniTell, and since I already have FoWs and Show and Tells, figured this might be a good transition. Plus I hate losing to Miracles, and from what I gather this has a decent Miracles matchup. What would be a good list to start with? I saw Sauce's list a few pages back, and it seems like that person has been playing it for quite some time and has had moderate success. The questions I was having as I was going through the main were a) why the one Khalni Garden and b) what is the MD Explosives mainly for? As far as the SB, I can tell you expected quite a bit of burn, which is something I want to be prepared for since a lot of people play it online.

[Zotmaster]

Looking to start playing this deck as I am sick of playing OmniTell, and since I already have FoWs and Show and Tells, figured this might be a good transition. Plus I hate losing to Miracles, and from what I gather this has a decent Miracles matchup. What would be a good list to start with? I saw Sauce's list a few pages back, and it seems like that person has been playing it for quite some time and has had moderate success. The questions I was having as I was going through the main were a) why the one Khalni Garden and b) what is the MD Explosives mainly for? As far as the SB, I can tell you expected quite a bit of burn, which is something I want to be prepared for since a lot of people play it online.

Good lists to start with would generally be a Rock Lee or Tim Harding list. Before his most recent post, my list was what Rock was running. I'm too lazy to find his post, but here it is on TappedOut: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-post-09-03-14-1/

Khalni Garden is a toolbox land. Its main purpose is to bring out by surprise via Crop Rotation to either block something (thereby functioning as pseudo-lifegain) or to sacrifice to, say, Liliana of the Veil, which means the creature they wanted you to sacrifice can now be used to smash face. I've also used it against Sneak and Show as an additional permanent to sacrifice to Emrakul, the Aeons Torn's annihilator.

As far as I know, Tim Harding has been running Engineered Explosives pretty much forever, and I used to run his list. Explosives on zero wipes out goblin tokens, Germs and flipped Delvers...or convinces a Delver player to not flip his Delvers into it. On one, it wipes out stuff like unflipped Delvers, Nimble Mongoose, Aether Vial, Deathrite Shaman, and Goblin Guide. On two, you can get rid of annoying permanents like Counterbalance and Tarmogoyf. In a pinch, the deck can produce four colors (or all five if you're running Rock's RUG or Nic Fit variants) which enables you to get rid of Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Sneak Attack. Tim's list also ran Trinket Mage to go get it when needed. You can also overpay for Explosives to sneak it in under a Counterbalance: you could, say, use two colors of mana and throw five colorless mana into casting it. Unless they have CMC 7, Counterbalance can't counter it.

[caw_86]

Looking to start playing this deck as I am sick of playing OmniTell, and since I already have FoWs and Show and Tells, figured this might be a good transition. Plus I hate losing to Miracles, and from what I gather this has a decent Miracles matchup. What would be a good list to start with? I saw Sauce's list a few pages back, and it seems like that person has been playing it for quite some time and has had moderate success. The questions I was having as I was going through the main were a) why the one Khalni Garden and b) what is the MD Explosives mainly for? As far as the SB, I can tell you expected quite a bit of burn, which is something I want to be prepared for since a lot of people play it online.


the 2 vesuvas act as additional copies of any land you might need more then once when it comes to utility lands. which comes up almost every game. Zotmaster kinda went over this and EE, which can do everything and is tutorable with mage. dont think of the deck like a toolkit deck, this is deck has power tools, a table saw, a woodshed and 3 or 4 of those big red multi level tool boxes. the woodshed is where we take miracles for whoopins

the BEB are more relevant then just for burn.
sneak attack
through the breach
blood moon
magus of the moon
past in flames
price of progress
burning wish
rite of flame
sulfuric vortex

a lot of these cards can be back breaking if they resolve

[Rock Lee]

The list Zot posted is a good stock list. I think it is very similar to what Sauce runs in his youtube series. The moment's peace is the flex slot for meta variance, which could be EE. Read up though. All this is covered in previous pages.

[Togores]

Looking to start playing this deck as I am sick of playing OmniTell, and since I already have FoWs and Show and Tells, figured this might be a good transition. Plus I hate losing to Miracles, and from what I gather this has a decent Miracles matchup. What would be a good list to start with? I saw Sauce's list a few pages back, and it seems like that person has been playing it for quite some time and has had moderate success. The questions I was having as I was going through the main were a) why the one Khalni Garden and b) what is the MD Explosives mainly for? As far as the SB, I can tell you expected quite a bit of burn, which is something I want to be prepared for since a lot of people play it online.


I know its off topic but couldnt stand to say something :D

If u hate loosing vs miracles just slam 2-3 boseijus in your omni side and wreck them. Played them in sneak and was just to op.

Welcome to turbo eldrazi^^

[maCHOOga]

Plus I hate losing to Miracles, and from what I gather this has a decent Miracles matchup.

It's very difficult to loose to miracles with 12 post. It's happened to me once, but that's because I got blood mooned with the inferior mono green version.

Against miracles if they go turn 1 island, SDT. You literally can go turn one cloudpost and then laugh manically as they try to figure out how to beat you.

And don't worry, no one enjoys loosing to miracles.

[endqwerty]

I generally win even after a turn 3 blood moon

[lotushead666]

Played 2 daily events online today with the following list:

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin

4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

4 Crop Rotation
4 Repeal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle
3 Show and Tell
2 Moment's Peace

SB:
4 Force of Will
4 Swan Song
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
1 Blue Elemental Blast

I didn't end up doing so well, but a lot of that was inexperience playing with the deck in general, and against Wasteland decks. I lost some pretty close games, and the majority of games I won were blowouts. Like I lost a game to elves because I decided not to give him enough respect to Craterhoof me on turn 3 and tapped out with a Rotation in hand, then died the following turn. I also lost a game to Deathblade because I was running low on time and forgot to precombat an Ulamog that would kill his only flying blocker for my lethal Emrakul. Lost to lands as well, and while the matchup felt horrible, you do have 4 Repeal, 4 Rotation for Karakas, and a Venser so it's hard for them to 20/20 you.

As far as the decklist goes, I liked most of it, but there were a couple things I could see changing. 1) is the MD Bog really necessary? It's obviously nice to have access to it, but you don't want it in every matchup, and I feel like the deck is pretty tight on colored sources, I did find myself more than once with a Titan in hand but no second green source. 2) how good is Venser? It felt like it was fine most of the time, but it seems very slow and you already have 4 Repeal so it's kind of redundant. Obviously the lock with Karakas is nice though. 3) 2 MD Moment's Peace seems unnecessary, probably just a metagame call. Also, if anyone has time I would greatly appreciate a small SBing guide, for the most part I can figure out what to cut, but I'm not sure if I should be bringing in FoWs more aggressively/if I should even have them in my SB. Any help would be awesome as I'm still new to this archetype, but I will definitely jam a ton of games tomorrow and try to get used to it some more.

[endqwerty]

1 yes. It doesn't hurt much and is easily useful. Drs. Snap caster. Etc. 2. He's fine but I cut him in favor of the engineered explosives plan. I really like explosives and moments peace against creature decks. Sideboard guides are on page 1. Rock lee was amazing and added tons of notes. They're current too. I'm not sure about the FoW plan as I don't use them myself. I'm on the mix of fluster, swan song, and mind break trap plan.

[Rock Lee]

Added in 3 more matchups on the first page.

Ichorid, Food Chain, and Lands.

I had thought those were all up already but apparently not. If you can think of any matchups I don't have listed, please throw them my way.


Also listed a caveat concerning how often I change the deck, and if you are getting into the deck and prefer a static list, that this might not be the best deck for you.

[lotushead666]

I appreciate the new SBing guides, and I've gone over them a couple times so that will definitely help. As far as constantly changing the deck, it makes sense that you change to adapt to your metagame and possibly try out some new things, I just wanted to find a nice stock list so I can get used to playing the deck, and after a couple of days I'll likely move some things around. I did have one card in mind that would have been nice to have access to yesterday: one Tabernacle. Likely in the SB, but it seems like a nice one of to have when you have Crop Rotation.

[Rock Lee]

I appreciate the new SBing guides, and I've gone over them a couple times so that will definitely help. As far as constantly changing the deck, it makes sense that you change to adapt to your metagame and possibly try out some new things, I just wanted to find a nice stock list so I can get used to playing the deck, and after a couple of days I'll likely move some things around. I did have one card in mind that would have been nice to have access to yesterday: one Tabernacle. Likely in the SB, but it seems like a nice one of to have when you have Crop Rotation.

Tabernacle will rise in likelihood of sideboarding based on these meta factors:

Rise in popularity of Goblins, Empty the Warrens, Sword of the Meek/Thopter Foundry, Merfolk.
Increased power of Elephant Grass. Should Deathrite get banned, this would become highly likely as a maindeck or sideboard card. The conjunction of Elephant Grass and Tabernacle is backbreaking to streamlined decks.
Should Armageddon/Cataclysm make more appearances than currently, this is the best response that isn't a counterspell.
If an exploration-Crucible/control-lands shell become stronger.


At the moment though, it is on the list of cards for strong consideration, but not currently on the list.

[Mockingbird]

So I've been cruising the Khans of Tarkir spoilers, and although I'm not entirely sure what to make of it yet, the card Dig Through Time grabbed my attention.

Dig Through Time :6::u::u:
Instant

Delve

Look at the top seven cards of your library. Put two of them into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.

I like the idea of a card that digs for answers that 1) we can pay for, and 2) with Delve, can also be cheapened.

It's not going to replace Brainstorm or Top because I will admit, it's a dead early game card, but as a 1 of or even two of seems like it could be useful.

[Rock Lee]

So I've been cruising the Khans of Tarkir spoilers, and although I'm not entirely sure what to make of it yet, the card Dig Through Time grabbed my attention.

Dig Through Time :6::u::u:
Instant

Delve

Look at the top seven cards of your library. Put two of them into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.

I like the idea of a card that digs for answers that 1) we can pay for, and 2) with Delve, can also be cheapened.

It's not going to replace Brainstorm or Top because I will admit, it's a dead early game card, but as a 1 of or even two of seems like it could be useful.

I saw it, and asked myself when it would be better than ponder. Couldn't come up with any times.

[nodahero]

Times when it is better than ponder? Any time you have a ton of mana? Or times when you need two cards at once .

I could see the value of it as a singleton for games that have gone long and you somehow failed to find/keep around your Eye of Ugin. Also when you just need to throw threats at an opponent until one sticks. While not often I can think of tons of times where knowing I could dig for two threats at once has provided me a few wins.

[maCHOOga]

Tabernacle will rise in likelihood of sideboarding based on these meta factors:

Rise in popularity of Goblins, Empty the Warrens, Sword of the Meek/Thopter Foundry, Merfolk.
Increased power of Elephant Grass. Should Deathrite get banned, this would become highly likely as a maindeck or sideboard card. The conjunction of Elephant Grass and Tabernacle is backbreaking to streamlined decks.
Should Armageddon/Cataclysm make more appearances than currently, this is the best response that isn't a counterspell.
If an exploration-Crucible/control-lands shell become stronger.


At the moment though, it is on the list of cards for strong consideration, but not currently on the list.

My meta is currently light on Combo and heavy on "fair" decks. Tabernacle is an Allstar against goblins, Merfolk, affinity and death and taxes. I personally don't think I would ever leave home without it at this point.

[TheBoozeCube]

Tabernacle will rise in likelihood of sideboarding based on these meta factors:

Rise in popularity of Goblins, Empty the Warrens, Sword of the Meek/Thopter Foundry, Merfolk.
Increased power of Elephant Grass. Should Deathrite get banned, this would become highly likely as a maindeck or sideboard card. The conjunction of Elephant Grass and Tabernacle is backbreaking to streamlined decks.
Should Armageddon/Cataclysm make more appearances than currently, this is the best response that isn't a counterspell.
If an exploration-Crucible/control-lands shell become stronger.


At the moment though, it is on the list of cards for strong consideration, but not currently on the list.

I'd also add RUG Delver (although not any other flavor Delver) to this list. If you drop Tabernacle early, they play so few lands that they are usually unable to play spells (other than Daze/FoW) if they want to keep their threats on the table. And if you can neutralize the tempo from their threats (i.e., Glimmerposts, Glacial Chasm, removal), you have plenty of time to set up without interference.

[Rock Lee]

I'd also add RUG Delver (although not any other flavor Delver) to this list. If you drop Tabernacle early, they play so few lands that they are usually unable to play spells (other than Daze/FoW) if they want to keep their threats on the table. And if you can neutralize the tempo from their threats (i.e., Glimmerposts, Glacial Chasm, removal), you have plenty of time to set up without interference.

I listed this already. tempo and rug are the same. I used to run both tabernacle and Elephant grass when RUG was THE deck to beat.


Times when it is better than ponder? Any time you have a ton of mana? Or times when you need two cards at once .

I could see the value of it as a singleton for games that have gone long and you somehow failed to find/keep around your Eye of Ugin. Also when you just need to throw threats at an opponent until one sticks. While not often I can think of tons of times where knowing I could dig for two threats at once has provided me a few wins.

When Eye of Ugin gets hymn'd away your next plan is to discard an eldrazi, but that withstanding, decks that run hymn have issues with 6/6 giants. So you transition. Getting 2 cards won't help with that. Now this card as a hate card against bug is very interesting and could merit some investigation. I still say impulse is a better card.

[203995014]

I generally agree with Rock Lee on Dig Through Time. At that point where you're casting it, you should probably be casting Primeval Titan and Kozilek instead. If you really want that extra hand manipulation you probably should be using Ponder instead. You shouldn't ever need 2 cards at once.

A small nitpick on the primer, you warned people in bold letters that the core is set in stone but I'm pretty sure Vesuva is no longer considered a 4-of and that people generally only run 2 eldrazi now.

[Rock Lee]

I generally agree with Rock Lee on Dig Through Time. At that point where you're casting it, you should probably be casting Primeval Titan and Kozilek instead. If you really want that extra hand manipulation you probably should be using Ponder instead. You shouldn't ever need 2 cards at once.

A small nitpick on the primer, you warned people in bold letters that the core is set in stone but I'm pretty sure Vesuva is no longer considered a 4-of and that people generally only run 2 eldrazi now.

too true! I'll fix that.

[sauce]

RockLee, I took your decklist for a spin tonight, here is my feedback after like 6 matches:

I changed the sb a bit because I don't own Mindbreak traps on MTGO.
Here is a screenshot of the list though: http://i.imgur.com/wkRo5ps.jpg


vs BUG I really missed both Cavern of Souls and Khalni Garden
vs Shardless BUG I got punished for having Phyrexian Revoker instead of Pithing needle when I needled Liliana on 7 and he top decked JTMS bounced Revoker and ultimated me
There is not enough Storm and Food chain to warrant revokers over Pithing needle on MTGO
Needle is better G1 vs Miracles by a wide margin
I boarded Chain of vapor out a lot
I really wanted to cast Memnarch, have not yet
2nd Candelabra is nice


2014-09-11 NEW videos are here:


vs Burn (w/ my version) - http://youtu.be/8oP9yFUO92E (G1 only since opponent rage quit)
vs Dredge (w/ RockLee's version) - http://youtu.be/vgi6FDEpQm4
vs Goblins R/w (w/ RockLee's version) - http://youtu.be/9HCD3_FM53g
vs Shardless BUG (w/ RockLee's version) - http://youtu.be/87nL-_CnH8o
vs Esperblade (w/ RockLee's version) - http://youtu.be/RZEmknRZk38
vs BUG Delver (w/ RockLee's version) - http://youtu.be/SAsp-MkshfU
vs Belcher (w/ RockLee's version) - http://youtu.be/8B7rU2etBao


Overall I feel like you're much stronger vs combo with this list but somewhat weaker to creature removal since needle does not get bolted/plowed/jaced/lilianad/innocent blooded.
I also did not like Chain of vapor, I never wanted to cast it. I could see it being nice when they play their last card and plus Liliana as you triumphantly slam CoV on Liliana in response but beyond that I found the "best" use for it to cast on t1 DRS. Versus BUG it may just not be a great card, they either end up bouncing your Revoker or it basically is a healing salve+. I almost feel like 2 CoV and 1 Moment's peace is stronger in your version.
What do you like CoV vs, is it just another card vs Food chain for your meta?

[Mockingbird]

I saw it, and asked myself when it would be better than ponder. Couldn't come up with any times.

Off the top of my head in Ponder vs. Dig Through Time:


During the opponent's End Step (Ponder is a sorcery, Dig Through Time is an Instant).
Show and Tell and Primeval Titan are both in top 7.
Force of Will and a blue card are in top 7.
"I need more time against this Tarmogoyf," let's Delve and find the Moment's Peace and/or Crop Rotation.
If you're in a game that's going to last past turn 5.


And that last one is why I'm wary but still interested to see how it works. Decks, including us, try to clinch a game around turn 3 and 4, and this card doesn't go live until after that, which means its use falls into two rolls:

Recovery
Insurance


What I think is that this card is legacy worthy, but probably more so in another strategy. However, the effect is powerful enough that I just don't want to just not bring it up.

[Rock Lee]

Overall I feel like you're much stronger vs combo with this list but somewhat weaker to creature removal since needle does not get bolted/plowed/jaced/lilianad/innocent blooded.
I also did not like Chain of vapor, I never wanted to cast it. I could see it being nice when they play their last card and plus Liliana as you triumphantly slam CoV on Liliana in response but beyond that I found the "best" use for it to cast on t1 DRS. Versus BUG it may just not be a great card, they either end up bouncing your Revoker or it basically is a healing salve+. I almost feel like 2 CoV and 1 Moment's peace is stronger in your version.
What do you like CoV vs, is it just another card vs Food chain for your meta?

CoV is there for top tricks. Pseudo crop rotationing by bouncing my tapped top then sac'ing the wasteland'd land and bouncing something of theirs. Hitting a Turn 1 DRS is perfectly fine. I do that regularly, thus enabling repeals on the drs and avoiding hymn/lilly's on turn 2. CoV with Lilly is really just to prevent her from ult'ing. I can regularly handle her + ability, its her -6 that kills me, especially if there is a goyf on the table, which you have the choice of making them discard. CoV isn't there for Food Chain at all. My meta is heavy U/R delver, Burn, and Food chain, all decks that are nightmare matchups for Turbo Eldrazi. Cov can be used in resp to Price of Progress to sacrifice lands ala zuran orb style and take lessened damage to Price.

[TheBoozeCube]

I generally agree with Rock Lee on Dig Through Time. At that point where you're casting it, you should probably be casting Primeval Titan and Kozilek instead. If you really want that extra hand manipulation you probably should be using Ponder instead. You shouldn't ever need 2 cards at once.

A small nitpick on the primer, you warned people in bold letters that the core is set in stone but I'm pretty sure Vesuva is no longer considered a 4-of and that people generally only run 2 eldrazi now.

What is the reasoning for cutting down on Vesuvas? Aside from cloning Cloudposts, this seems like a necessary 4-of to copy ETB triggers on Glimmerposts and Bojuka Bogs. I can't count how many times Vesuva has saved my life by doing this.

Why aren't people running Ulamog anymore? I rarely tutor for him. But when I do, it's for something crucial, like blowing up a planeswalker about to ultimate, taking out a combo piece, or clearing away something like Humility or Ensnaring Bridge.

[Mockingbird]

What is the reasoning for cutting down on Vesuvas? Aside from cloning Cloudposts, this seems like a necessary 4-of to copy ETB triggers on Glimmerposts and Bojuka Bogs. I can't count how many times Vesuva has saved my life by doing this.Basics>Cloudpost post board... or more accurately, colored sources that come into play untapped and are Wasteland/Blood Moon proof are more important than pushing out the full 12-Post count. Mono-G doesn't have that some concern, but I will say I've learned just how few copy effects this deck actually needs because blue spells carry this deck a long way.


Why aren't people running Ulamog anymore? I rarely tutor for him. But when I do, it's for something crucial, like blowing up a planeswalker about to ultimate, taking out a combo piece, or clearing away something like Humility or Ensnaring Bridge.I still run all three, but basically, deck space is tightening up in the UG version, so tight that people are choosing only two slots for Eldrazi and not three. In the Ulamog vs. Kozilek debate, neither one is actually a clear winner. People just go back and forth based on what they feel they need for the meta, and even personal preference plays a role. As for Rock Lee specifically, he has three Chain of Vapors and four Repeals, Ulamog becomes redundant there.


Also Rock, what happened to Ensnaring Bridge+Karn Liberated?

[TheBoozeCube]

Basics>Cloudpost post board... or more accurately, colored sources that come into play untapped and are Wasteland/Blood Moon proof are more important than pushing out the full 12-Post count. Mono-G doesn't have that some concern, but I will say I've learned just how few copy effects this deck actually needs because blue spells carry this deck a long way.

That makes a lot more sense now. Resistance to Wasteland/Blood Moon is one of the main reasons I've quickly gone back to monogreen every time I try a blue splash.

[PilotChick]

Every time I try to modify this deck I literally have nothing I want to take out of it... So I just copy the latest list.
Man I'd die without this thread. I'll get there one day.
Went 1 - 2 - 0 last night. Won 2 0 vs merfolk, lost 0 2 vs shardless bug (my best friend, knows me and the deck inside and out) and then 0 2 vs mud post. Literally the most grindy match of my life. I have all my post lands out, all of them, and I couldn't find an eldrazi. My eye of ugin got wasteland.

[sauce]

vs Solidarity (out of all decks?!) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gbl4Uq2Agg&feature=youtu.be

[Rock Lee]

Testing a theoretical variant of the CoV list:

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
2 [US] Show and Tell

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [DS] Memnarch

The theory here is overload on board control and devote the sideboard to heavy stack control. A bit of a different tact from the previous concepts of combo versus control. But with current decks muddying the waters of those definitions, this provides a clearer picture of the intent of the maindeck/sideboard.