Let's speculate! How low do you think goyfs will drop

[KobeBryan]

I was looking over magiccards.info for the last couple of days since news broke out regarding modern masters.

Seems like goyfs have already dropped $5 over the last couple of days.

[kingsey]

I think non-english ones wont drop as much as english. Non foil english somewhere around 50.

[Jenni]

I would guess original-print goes down to maybe 70$ Average NM retail. New print will probably be around 50$ Average NM Retail. The Non-english ones will probably hold their price, since a lot of people like to "pimp" their decks with non-english cards.

[DrHealex]

Up $10

[Smmenen]

The problem with the OP is that it asks the wrong question. The question isn't how low will Goyfs drop with the first Modern Masters set, but where will it settle after multiple reprints in the next few years.

We can expect many Modern Masters sets, just as there have been online. Expect Goyf to be reprinted many times.

[joemauer]

One dollar! One dollar!

[John Cox]

What he say?

One dollar! One dollar!
2 dollars!!

[Lord Seth]

Considering we still have no idea exactly how "limited" Modern Masters is, this question seems unanswerable at the moment.

[Tormod]

I would guess original-print goes down to maybe 70$ Average NM retail. New print will probably be around 50$ Average NM Retail. The Non-english ones will probably hold their price, since a lot of people like to "pimp" their decks with non-english cards.

Agreed.

[obituary 95]

50 dollars

[UnsungHero]

http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y512/Unsungheromtg/goyfpls.jpg

20 bucks bob

[Lemnear]

Considering we still have no idea exactly how "limited" Modern Masters is, this question seems unanswerable at the moment.

Wasn't the talk among dealers that the set has a printrun a la Coldsnap?

[Barook]

Wasn't the talk among dealers that the set has a printrun a la Coldsnap?

Which means?

[DragoFireheart]

Future Sight Tarmogoyfs will go for 50-60 each.

http://htmlgiant.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/tarmogoyf.jpg



Modern Masters Tarmogoys will go for 100-120 each.

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Tarmogoyf-Modern-Masters-Spoiler.jpg

[death]

Future Sight Tarmogoyfs will go for 50-60 each.

http://htmlgiant.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/tarmogoyf.jpg



Modern Masters Tarmogoys will go for 100-120 each.

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Tarmogoyf-Modern-Masters-Spoiler.jpg

You really love that card don't you, I see you made it your avatar and even pegged it at a much redonkulous price.

[sdematt]

Disagree. Reprint is reprint is reprint.

Plus, it doesn't come in Russian /autofail.

-Matt

[dunk]

( I'm not really used to the US market, so just translate my prices to $$$ )

35 € is the lowest I can imagine. I think singles will go for ca. 40 € while playsets will sell for 180-200 €. New Goyfs will be a bit more expensive than old ones ( 1-3 € margin ), shortly after the release of the set at least.
Foil Goyfs from Future Sight won't lose any value at all, and the new ones will be cheaper than the original due to high supply, boring frame and crappy picture. I don't really know what a foil goyf is at right now - probably 200 or something - but I can't imagine the Master's Edition ones selling for more than 150, especially with the "1 foil per pack" rule making foil mythics slightly more easy to find.

[KobeBryan]

So you guys expect old goyfs to drop to 70 bucks.

but the thing is, on magiccards.info, goyfs are at 80 right now...so its even lower on ebay.

I think old goyfs may even drop below 50 at this point.

[DragoFireheart]

You really love that card don't you, I see you made it your avatar and even pegged it at a much redonkulous price.

- I do love the card.

And we'll see in the summer next year who is right. Alternate art does affect prices of cards so it isn't that much of a stretch.

[Megadeus]

Another thing is that Goyf is continuing to see less play with the rise of scavenging ooze. At least on a Legacy level.

[DragoFireheart]

Another thing is that Goyf is continuing to see less play with the rise of scavenging ooze. At least on a Legacy level.

- Modern is probably the driving force behind it's value atm.

[Megadeus]

Thats kind of what I assumed. Hopefully they let scavenging ooze be a modern card!

[Dark Ritual]

- I do love the card.

And we'll see in the summer next year who is right. Alternate art does affect prices of cards so it isn't that much of a stretch.

Okay so the alternate art FTV maze of ith is worth more than the dark version? Oh wait, they're the same price with the dark version edging out the FTV version because the dark version is tourney legal due to it not warping like crazy.

The new art for goyf isn't a spectacular piece of art by any stretch of the imagination. It's mediocre at best in my eyes, the only cool part about it is that deer in the picture.

The old goyfs will be worth more, foreign goyfs will retain a lot of value due to the pimp factor depending on language. I see the new goyf going for under 50 bucks a pop and the old one for about 60-70. It all depends on the total print run of the set though and how many goyfs are introduced into the market.

[lavafrogg]

Shouldn't we be talking about how good this is for Legacy? There has to be a post about that somewhere....(goes looking)

[UnsungHero]

Okay so the alternate art FTV maze of ith is worth more than the dark version? Oh wait, they're the same price with the dark version edging out the FTV version because the dark version is tourney legal due to it not warping like crazy.

The new art for goyf isn't a spectacular piece of art by any stretch of the imagination. It's mediocre at best in my eyes, the only cool part about it is that deer in the picture.

The old goyfs will be worth more, foreign goyfs will retain a lot of value due to the pimp factor depending on language. I see the new goyf going for under 50 bucks a pop and the old one for about 60-70. It all depends on the total print run of the set though and how many goyfs are introduced into the market.

I agree with this. Mox Diamond (FTV/Stronghold) are the same price as well. Also original Ravnica shocklands are worth more then the RtR ones. Orginal cards most of the time are always worth more then their new counterparts. Its not really even about artwork. Old cards always seem to be worth a little more.
I feel that these staples that are being printed is good for legacy. However, due to these staples being more "common" we could see other staples that were not printed hiking up. Everything is really up in the air right now, Will legacy die? Will Modern be a flop? Should I collect staples for x or y format, or get the ones for both? Should I pick up ban-list cards for modern for fear that they may become unbanned and see a price hike? Questions like this just suck for people who want to get into and enjoy eternal formats.

[JACO]

After Modern Masters 1 is released I think you can expect Future Sight copies of Tarmogoyf to be averaging less than $50 each on eBay, and the Modern Masters one will be less than $35. The value on MTGO of both version will be totally destroyed.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Very little change. Modern demand has spiked hard due to the PTQ season, prices of Magic cards tend to be very sticky, and Modern Masters is a limited print run. Unless Wizards really goes all out with Modern Masters and loads the rare/uncommon slots full of value, or makes the Mythic list absolutely insane, all of the set's value will be concentrated in a few Mythics, leading it to be a $7 lottery ticket to get a Goyf/Clique/Confidant, and hardly lowering the prices.

Also, that assumes this is sold widely at MSRP. But with a limited print run distributed only to certain stores based on affiliation, it wouldn't be unlikely to see packs of this go for more than MSRP. It may be like an FTV in that Wizards wants this product to be a "thank you" to brick and mortar stores, to give them a little extra profit.

[KobeBryan]

Very little change. Modern demand has spiked hard due to the PTQ season, prices of Magic cards tend to be very sticky, and Modern Masters is a limited print run. Unless Wizards really goes all out with Modern Masters and loads the rare/uncommon slots full of value, or makes the Mythic list absolutely insane, all of the set's value will be concentrated in a few Mythics, leading it to be a $7 lottery ticket to get a Goyf/Clique/Confidant, and hardly lowering the prices.

Also, that assumes this is sold widely at MSRP. But with a limited print run distributed only to certain stores based on affiliation, it wouldn't be unlikely to see packs of this go for more than MSRP. It may be like an FTV in that Wizards wants this product to be a "thank you" to brick and mortar stores, to give them a little extra profit.

I don't think the print run will be THAT limited where it is a 'thank you' to stores. Wizards did mention that it is possible to draft this set. Its not easy to draft a set if stores don't sell at MSRP.

[SpikeyMikey]

24 packs in a box. Mythics every 8 packs. 3 Mythics per box, average. 5 boxes per Tarmogoyf, average. That's not going to add much to the supply. I think prices will initially drop to around $50, SCG price and creep back up to $70 within a year. $10-$20 less for eBay.

[jtos84]

I think tarmogoyf is a 160 to 200 dollar card. In my eyes the only thing that would lower the price is its reprinting (which I don't think should happen). I asked some people what they thought it was worth at eighty dollars, and they said probably 60 to 80. I told them what I thought, and they disagreed. Now its at 100. I think the value of this card is that it is the most efficient two drop you could hope for. It is playable in vintage, extremely valuable in legacy, and I am sure it very good in modern. I don't play modern so I am unsure there. I think its value in vintage and legacy alone make worth 120.

[MirrorMask]

And.. you wrong. It doesn't see that much play to be so expensive. Furthermore, no card, ever, is worth more than the dualands. Of course actual price doesn't always reflects this but goyf is NOTHING more than a silly creature with good mana cost. Even a 0/1 can and will block it. It has zero abilities (other than getting big) and right now it doesn't help than much when we have delver, ooze, stoneforge and a ton of other more efficient critters. For me, what goyf is really worth is only 20-30$. The 100$ that is sold right now has to do ONLY with limited supply that cannot satisfy the players of 2 formats.
As for the price range after the reprint I believe 30-50$ (at least for the new one) depending on the amount printed.

[Esper3k]

Furthermore, no card, ever, is worth more than the dualands.

Moat, Tabernacle, Candelabra, Power 9 would like to have a word with you...

That being said, I think Future Sight nonfoil Tarmogoyfs will drop slightly with the increased number of Tarmogoyfs on the market with the Modern Masters one being maybe $10-15 less than the FS ones.

[bruizar]

Moat, Tabernacle, Candelabra, Power 9 would like to have a word with you...

That being said, I think Future Sight nonfoil Tarmogoyfs will drop slightly with the increased number of Tarmogoyfs on the market with the Modern Masters one being maybe $10-15 less than the FS ones.

Except for alpha Black Lotus, there is not much that outvalues alpha Underground Sea.

[Lord Seth]

I think tarmogoyf is a 160 to 200 dollar card.How?

Something's worth is, and always has been, primarily the result of supply and demand. How do you somehow come to the weird conclusion that Tarmogoyf is worth more than it is? Something is worth how much people will pay for it, and people are not paying that much for Tarmogoyfs.


In my eyes the only thing that would lower the price is its reprinting (which I don't think should happen).Er...why?


I asked some people what they thought it was worth at eighty dollars, and they said probably 60 to 80. I told them what I thought, and they disagreed. Now its at 100.So...what? When it was at eighty dollars, they correctly said it was worth around 60 to 80. Now it's increased and is at 100. How does that prove them wrong? Black Lotus being worth $1,000+ now doesn't mean it wasn't worth $300 in the past, and likewise it doesn't mean at that point it was somehow worth $1,000.


I think the value of this card is that it is the most efficient two drop you could hope for. It is playable in vintage, extremely valuable in legacy, and I am sure it very good in modern. I don't play modern so I am unsure there. I think its value in vintage and legacy alone make worth 120.Well then you're wrong, because objectively speaking the card is not worth that much. Even the most overpriced sellers I know of are selling it for less than that.

Something isn't worth $120 just because you think it should be (especially when the reasons you provide don't make sense). It'd be worth $120 if the supply/demand is enough to make it that high. It isn't, so it isn't worth that much, and it certainly isn't worth $160+.

[ramanujan]

I don't think the price will change significantly. Yes, I know that I am in the minority here. I think that MM will drive up demand for the card through interest in the format. People have been clamoring for years for reprints and finally, they are getting them. I am not convinced that people wanting reprints were making the right request. I think most of them were asking "Please give me a way to buy the cards I want cheaply". They made a pretty silly assumption that reprints would satisfy that need so they asked for reprints. Wizards has done several things to ensure that the value of the card remains relatively intact.

1. The price for booster packs is substantially increased (without any real justification in my mind), making it far easier to justify a really high price for the most sought after cards from the set. The fact that there are fewer boosters per box is not of any consequence.

2. The rarity of the card was moved to mythic, resulting in a much smaller probability of openning the card than if it were just a rare.

3. The print run has been stated, time and time again, to be small. People who want these sought after singles have been relatively ignorant of this fact, often saying that it can be drafted or that there will be a GP. Beta has been drafted and a single GP is a small impact compared to an entire print run, even a small one.

4. Modern is being pushed really heavily by Wizards. All of this support will increase demand. Wizards has played thier hand, and it reads "Play Modern". They have a vested interest in designing great cards for this format with every product. The modern format will get better with time as the designers get better and better at designing cards with it in mind.

I am pretty convinced that MM will get a largely positive reception. The vast majority of the cohort that plays this game (late teens to late twenties men) don't manage thier money all that well. They don't think about how many dollars it costs to buy the packs to open tarmogoyf. I do not mean to steriotype, it is more that the averages seem this way. In my many years playing this game, I see new faces each year throwing away thousands of dollars (usually student loan money) on standard staples that give about the same investment return as calendars.

Enough of my yapping. I think that the price will not move more than 10% (assuming a three month delay), and I will not give a direction.

[Esper3k]

Except for alpha Black Lotus, there is not much that outvalues alpha Underground Sea.

Sure, but there are plenty of other cards that are more expensive than the majority of the other duals much less the UNL/REV ones.

For example, all of your UNL Moxen, Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, Lotus are going to singificantly outvalue all of your UNL dual lands.

[bruizar]

How?

Something's worth is, and always has been, primarily the result of supply and demand. How do you somehow come to the weird conclusion that Tarmogoyf is worth more than it is? Something is worth how much people will pay for it, and people are not paying that much for Tarmogoyfs.


Yes but no. As a speculator, I can tell you that market values aren't always in sync with the actual supply/demand. Market values catch up slower than supply/demand, and supply/demand catch up slower than spoilers/hidden gems. If you're faster than the market, you can make some very good trades/buys.



It's also extremely silly to state that something is worth its current price. Magic exists for around 18 years. Removing the time factor is just plain silly when its a big reason why many of the old cards are as expensive as they are. Venture capitalists take the time factor into consideration through discounted cash flow. The same principle can and should be applied to magic speculation, otherwise you will simply make sucky deal after sucky deal.

[KobeBryan]

I think tarmogoyf is a 160 to 200 dollar card. In my eyes the only thing that would lower the price is its reprinting (which I don't think should happen). I asked some people what they thought it was worth at eighty dollars, and they said probably 60 to 80. I told them what I thought, and they disagreed. Now its at 100. I think the value of this card is that it is the most efficient two drop you could hope for. It is playable in vintage, extremely valuable in legacy, and I am sure it very good in modern. I don't play modern so I am unsure there. I think its value in vintage and legacy alone make worth 120.

How is tarmogoyf a 200 dollar card?

Supply and demand dictates the market value of this card and the market right now has him sitting about about 80 dollars.

Where did you come up with the conclusion that it is 200 dollars?

Also, modern masters is going to reprint the card.

A reprint is a reprint is a reprint. Price will drop.

[bruizar]

How is tarmogoyf a 200 dollar card?

Supply and demand dictates the market value of this card and the market right now has him sitting about about 80 dollars.

Where did you come up with the conclusion that it is 200 dollars?

Also, modern masters is going to reprint the card.

A reprint is a reprint is a reprint. Price will drop.

If supply increases by 200% but demand is increased by 1000%, the price will not drop, reprint or not.

[bruizar]

One aspect of investing in Magic has been speculation on the effects of reprints. Increasing the supply of a card should lower the price. For some cards, there is an argument to be made that reprints can be neutral or even positive for certain cards as a reprint allows the card to be rotated into new formats and makes players aware of the power of cards: Mana Leak from Stronghold, a neglected counterspell, got a big boost when it was reprinted and became legal in Standard. However, this argument is more about tournament legality than reprints per se. Because the coëfficient for ln[Reprints] is insignificant in Table 4, the evidence that reprints lower prices is weak for cards not legal in Block, Standard, or Modern. However, the number of reprints is correlated with but not equal to the print run size. Hence, there is a good chance that using the number of reprints rather than absolute print run sizes is subject to measurement error.

Table 4:

=======================================
Reprints, Tournament Legality, and Price
=======================================
1% increase in reprints = -8% price
Card is Block legal = -38% price
Card is Standard legal = +42% price
Card is Modern legal = +11% price
1% increase in reprints for Block legal cards = -14% price
1% increase in reprints for Standard legal cards = +16% price
1% increase in reprints for Modern legal cards = 5% price
1% increase in reprints for a 1% newer card = +2% price
1% increase in reprints for a 1 rank in draft pick = -3% price
=======================================


To disentangle the tournament legality question from the issue of reprints, several interaction effects were included in the model. What this means is that the number of reprints for a card are evaluated conditional on the card being legal in a tournament format. The term ln[Reprints]*Standard captures the effects of reprints if the card is legal in Standard tournaments. The estimate above tells us that an additional reprint for an average Standard card lowers the price of the card by about 18%.

The multiplication of the logged number of reprints and power level tells us that reprints are especially detrimental to high-powered cards. Specifically, each reprint lowers the value of a card exponentially: an average first-pack first-pick Cube card like Sol Ring would lose about 36% of its value if it were to be reprinted; a reprint for a 10th pick Cube card like Regrowth, will lower the price only by about 13%. For cards that do not even making onto the power ranking list, this additional effect on price disappears..

[Esper3k]

If supply increases by 200% but demand is increased by 1000%, the price will not drop, reprint or not.

This is true, but we don't have any indication of anything that would significantly increase demand for Tarmogoyfs. Modern has already been announced as a GP/PT format, etc so Tarmogoyf's spike in demand has already hit (which can be seen by it's relatively stable value these days).

[bruizar]

I don't think Modern has already peaked in value. THe format is still trying to figure out what it is, so the meta is very much fluctuating. We all know that blue is going to dominate eventually.

[xfxf]

One aspect of investing in Magic has been speculation on the effects of reprints. Increasing the supply of a card should lower the price. For some cards, there is an argument to be made that reprints can be neutral or even positive for certain cards as a reprint allows the card to be rotated into new formats and makes players aware of the power of cards: Mana Leak from Stronghold, a neglected counterspell, got a big boost when it was reprinted and became legal in Standard. However, this argument is more about tournament legality than reprints per se. Because the coëfficient for ln[Reprints] is insignificant in Table 4, the evidence that reprints lower prices is weak for cards not legal in Block, Standard, or Modern. However, the number of reprints is correlated with but not equal to the print run size. Hence, there is a good chance that using the number of reprints rather than absolute print run sizes is subject to measurement error.

Table 4:

=======================================
Reprints, Tournament Legality, and Price
=======================================
1% increase in reprints = -8% price
Card is Block legal = -38% price
Card is Standard legal = +42% price
Card is Modern legal = +11% price
1% increase in reprints for Block legal cards = -14% price
1% increase in reprints for Standard legal cards = +16% price
1% increase in reprints for Modern legal cards = 5% price
1% increase in reprints for a 1% newer card = +2% price
1% increase in reprints for a 1 rank in draft pick = -3% price
=======================================


To disentangle the tournament legality question from the issue of reprints, several interaction effects were included in the model. What this means is that the number of reprints for a card are evaluated conditional on the card being legal in a tournament format. The term ln[Reprints]*Standard captures the effects of reprints if the card is legal in Standard tournaments. The estimate above tells us that an additional reprint for an average Standard card lowers the price of the card by about 18%.

The multiplication of the logged number of reprints and power level tells us that reprints are especially detrimental to high-powered cards. Specifically, each reprint lowers the value of a card exponentially: an average first-pack first-pick Cube card like Sol Ring would lose about 36% of its value if it were to be reprinted; a reprint for a 10th pick Cube card like Regrowth, will lower the price only by about 13%. For cards that do not even making onto the power ranking list, this additional effect on price disappears..

Does this seem a little surreal to me because I'm kinda high or is it because this is an actual attempt at economic modelling of the second hand market? :eyebrow:

Edit: I was just going to post asking whether the price change/no-change we will see once the MM is released could be used to prove/unprove the necessity of the reserved list policy, but after reading the above post I feel silly.

[Lord Seth]

Yes but no. As a speculator, I can tell you that market values aren't always in sync with the actual supply/demand. Market values catch up slower than supply/demand, and supply/demand catch up slower than spoilers/hidden gems. If you're faster than the market, you can make some very good trades/buys.



It's also extremely silly to state that something is worth its current price. Magic exists for around 18 years. Removing the time factor is just plain silly when its a big reason why many of the old cards are as expensive as they are. Venture capitalists take the time factor into consideration through discounted cash flow. The same principle can and should be applied to magic speculation, otherwise you will simply make sucky deal after sucky deal.I feel like you're trying to argue with me, but I can't actually see anywhere you're not in agreement with me.

[Koby]

Does this seem a little surreal to me because I'm kinda high or is it because this is an actual attempt at economic modelling of the second hand market? :eyebrow:

Edit: I was just going to post asking whether the price change/no-change we will see once the MM is released could be used to prove/unprove the necessity of the reserved list policy, but after reading the above post I feel silly.

@ bruizar, what is the source of your quote? I really want to pick it apart, but I doubt its your own material.

[menace13]

I don't think Modern has already peaked in value. THe format is still trying to figure out what it is, so the meta is very much fluctuating. We all know that blue is going to dominate eventually.
Not quite true. The blue decks have a hard time dealing with Bloodbraid into Blghtning, not to say there won't be in the future, but there won't be anytime soon.

[bruizar]

@ bruizar, what is the source of your quote? I really want to pick it apart, but I doubt its your own material.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BzQiDu0Idu40TlhrYUcwRHNOOFE/edit

even though its not perfect, it's (afaik) the first article of its kind and it gives a glimpse into a very important part of the game as far as the magic ecosystem is concerned.

Following the article, Caverns of Souls, Abrupt Decay, Geist of Saint Traft, Deahrite Shaman will be very sticky in terms of price, whereas Bonfire of the Damned will probably collapse after rotation.


Not quite true. The blue decks have a hard time dealing with Bloodbraid into Blghtning, not to say there won't be in the future, but there won't be anytime soon.

Blue control is not really viable right now, but we all know that is what this format will turn into given enough time. I think Jund will be replaced by Junk, and there will be less combo decks, but 1 or 2 dominant ones (eggs+something else).

Vendilion Clique is very underplayed right now. That card should be all over the place.

[dunk]

I don't think Modern has already peaked in value. THe format is still trying to figure out what it is, so the meta is very much fluctuating. We all know that blue is going to dominate eventually.

Not quite true. While I wouldn't call the format solved, it knows what it is - it's based around good stuff ( Jund, Gifts, Pod, UW ), aggroish combo ( Infect, Affinity, Martyr ) and real combo ( Storm, Eggs ). I guess you can count Tron a pillar as well. But zoo style aggro decks and control both have kind of died. Which just make sense, as they actually have problems with any other deck... the closest to playable control deck is TWin, which is probably more of a combo deck though.

If you ask me we already see a "blue" dominance. Without Brainstorm and Force it will never reach legacy level though. But as for the other cards... Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Mana Leak and Cryptic Command are all kind of format warping ( UW is just underplayed ) and Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand are definately. Even weak card selection is still card selection, and if I was a combo player I would be happy to play in a format with weak selection but without Force if my deck can still go of turn 3 on regular base ( Infect and Storm have so many turn 3 kills, it's not fun anymore ).
I wouldn't call V. Clique underplayed though. Of course it's a strong card but it has a few weaknesses as well in the current format, for example suffering to the huge number of Lingering Souls that people play. It's kind of slow against Infect, Affinity and Tron.
If more people will switch to UW it will see more play. Still, far from underplayed.


Oh and no way junk will replace Jund anytime soon - all I can say is LIGHTNING BOLT.

[bruizar]

Not quite true. While I wouldn't call the format solved, it knows what it is - it's based around good stuff ( Jund, Gifts, Pod, UW ), aggroish combo ( Infect, Affinity, Martyr ) and real combo ( Storm, Eggs ). I guess you can count Tron a pillar as well. But zoo style aggro decks and control both have kind of died. Which just make sense, as they actually have problems with any other deck... the closest to playable control deck is TWin, which is probably more of a combo deck though.

I sort of agree with this, but some of those archetypes will disappear.



If you ask me we already see a "blue" dominance. Without Brainstorm and Force it will never reach legacy level though. But as for the other cards... Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Mana Leak and Cryptic Command are all kind of format warping ( UW is just underplayed ) and Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand are definately. Even weak card selection is still card selection, and if I was a combo player I would be happy to play in a format with weak selection but without Force if my deck can still go of turn 3 on regular base ( Infect and Storm have so many turn 3 kills, it's not fun anymore ).
I wouldn't call V. Clique underplayed though. Of course it's a strong card but it has a few weaknesses as well in the current format, for example suffering to the huge number of Lingering Souls that people play. It's kind of slow against Infect, Affinity and Tron.
If more people will switch to UW it will see more play. Still, far from underplayed.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptrtr12/topmoderndecks

There is not a single Academy Ruins and only 2 Engineered Explosives. Only 4 pithing needles in total to prevent it. That is just wrong in a format that has no proper land destruction. The format is wide open. imo the current UW builds just suck compared to what it can be.



Oh and no way junk will replace Jund anytime soon - all I can say is LIGHTNING BOLT.
Knight of the Reliquary with utility lands and no proper way to get rid of utility lands is, imo, better than Lightning Bolt.

[jtos84]

I thought we were supposed to speculate and not use financial analysis? I just took a class on supply and demand, and yes you are correct with what you said about what people are willing to pay. I think people would easily pay more though. The people selling tarmogoyfs for the most part do not have a degree in finance, so they try to lowball each other whenever possible. If the selling environment were more controlled tarmogoyf would probably keep going up because this card is always in the top eight of tournaments. There are cards that have had much less of an impact and have been worth a lot more.

There is a lot more than supply and demand that goes into pricing magic cards because of the amount of dealers selling the same product. If they are going to reprint it though it is going to drop like a rock. Bet me it won't. I havn't heard of modern masters I'll have to look into it.

[ramanujan]

I thought we were supposed to speculate and not use financial analysis? I just took a class on supply and demand, and yes you are correct with what you said about what people are willing to pay. I think people would easily pay more though. The people selling tarmogoyfs for the most part do not have a degree in finance, so they try to lowball each other whenever possible. If the selling environment were more controlled tarmogoyf would probably keep going up because this card is always in the top eight of tournaments. There are cards that have had much less of an impact and have been worth a lot more.

There is a lot more than supply and demand that goes into pricing magic cards because of the amount of dealers selling the same product. If they are going to reprint it though it is going to drop like a rock. Bet me it won't. I havn't heard of modern masters I'll have to look into it.

They are going to reprint Tarmogoyf.

I will bet you that the price will not "drop like a rock".
The proposed bet.
Using Starcitygames as the measure of price, I assert that the following statement will be true.
1.The price for a customer to buy a near mint copy of Tarmogoyf (from Modern Masters or Future Sight) will not be less than 49.99 on this day next year(November 21st, 2013).

I am willing to accept a wager amount you find appropriate, which may or may not include Magic Cards but is not above 100.00 US at the time that this post is written.

Are you game?

[KobeBryan]

I thought we were supposed to speculate and not use financial analysis? I just took a class on supply and demand, and yes you are correct with what you said about what people are willing to pay. I think people would easily pay more though. The people selling tarmogoyfs for the most part do not have a degree in finance, so they try to lowball each other whenever possible. If the selling environment were more controlled tarmogoyf would probably keep going up because this card is always in the top eight of tournaments. There are cards that have had much less of an impact and have been worth a lot more.

There is a lot more than supply and demand that goes into pricing magic cards because of the amount of dealers selling the same product. If they are going to reprint it though it is going to drop like a rock. Bet me it won't. I havn't heard of modern masters I'll have to look into it.

They already said they are reprinting tarmogoyf.

If this is a draftable set, and all indication leads one to believe this, the price will drop. its not like a FTV series where there is a limited supply. This is draftable.

I believe new goyfs will be around 30-40.

[bruizar]

The thing that worries me is this:


We don't want to turn cards from scarce to abundant in the blink of an eye, but we do want to alter the availability by a matter of degrees, all with the goal of growing the reach of the Modern format

I can't say it enough: our print run is very small, especially compared to what we're making for our current headliner sets like Return to Ravnica. We're playing in a very delicate space, and we know that, but the promise of the Modern format was that we would address card availability issues, and we are focused on figuring out the best way to do that.

src: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/218

How can you increase availability (i.e.: price) without reducing the price? There are plenty of Tarmogoyfs to support the format. The only thing causing the availability problem is its current price which can only go down by reprinting them in excessive amounts (otherwise you aren't going to impact the price enough, unless you solve the problem by banning/obsoleting them through powercreep or splash hate). Fears of another Chronicles set are very real.

It really depends on the print run, but here's the catch: if the set is successful they will increase the print run... this means they will continue to add cards until the system breaks, which means eventually, goyfs become birds of paradise with only the original foil retaining its value just like alpha/beta birds of paradise retain its value.


"If the set works and accomplishes what we want—more Modern players—we'll contemplate making another set like it some time down the road."

My advise is to pick up foil goyfs if you're in the market for goyfs, because its a safer bet than non-foils. I'd also focus on the more recent playable cards since those are less likely to already get a reprint.

[jtos84]

They are going to reprint Tarmogoyf.

I will bet you that the price will not "drop like a rock".
The proposed bet.
Using Starcitygames as the measure of price, I assert that the following statement will be true.
1.The price for a customer to buy a near mint copy of Tarmogoyf (from Modern Masters or Future Sight) will not be less than 49.99 on this day next year(November 21st, 2013).

I am willing to accept a wager amount you find appropriate, which may or may not include Magic Cards but is not above 100.00 US at the time that this post is written.

Are you game?

I shouldn't have used the word bet because I do not gamble. Dropping to fifty bucks is pretty much like dropping like a rock. Now that I know its going to be reprinted I will just wait and buy some reprinted goyfs although the picture isn't as cool. Don't get me wrong the new picture is cool, but I like the old one more.

[KobeBryan]

I shouldn't have used the word bet because I do not gamble. Dropping to fifty bucks is pretty much like dropping like a rock. Now that I know its going to be reprinted I will just wait and buy some reprinted goyfs although the picture isn't as cool. Don't get me wrong the new picture is cool, but I like the old one more.

so 80 dollars to 50 dollars is a rock, what do you consider 80 to about 10-15?

Armageddon?

[jtos84]

Not quite an armageddon, but maybe two rocks.

[GoblinSettler]

Not quite an armageddon, but maybe two rocks.

Stone Rain?

[MirrorMask]

Moat, Tabernacle, Candelabra, Power 9 would like to have a word with you...

That being said, I think Future Sight nonfoil Tarmogoyfs will drop slightly with the increased number of Tarmogoyfs on the market with the Modern Masters one being maybe $10-15 less than the FS ones.

Its a Legacy forum so I was talking about Legacy ONLY. Furthermore, I was talking more about actual worth in game rather than money worth. Read more carefully please.

[Pippin]

They already said they are reprinting tarmogoyf.

If this is a draftable set, and all indication leads one to believe this, the price will drop. its not like a FTV series where there is a limited supply. This is draftable.

I believe new goyfs will be around 30-40.

Except that in FTV example one just simply pays $45 (or a bit more) and gets his copy of a needed card for certainty .

With Modern Masters you need to pay $168 (or a bit more) and are not likely to open a Goyf due to the mythic rarity. Though, there is a chance that you'll open one if you open 6 boxes... (168*6 = $1008)

[FieryBalrog]

The thing that worries me is this:



src: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/218

How can you increase availability (i.e.: price) without reducing the price? There are plenty of Tarmogoyfs to support the format. The only thing causing the availability problem is its current price which can only go down by reprinting them in excessive amounts (otherwise you aren't going to impact the price enough, unless you solve the problem by banning/obsoleting them through powercreep or splash hate). Fears of another Chronicles set are very real.

It really depends on the print run, but here's the catch: if the set is successful they will increase the print run... this means they will continue to add cards until the system breaks, which means eventually, goyfs become birds of paradise with only the original foil retaining its value just like alpha/beta birds of paradise retain its value.



My advise is to pick up foil goyfs if you're in the market for goyfs, because its a safer bet than non-foils. I'd also focus on the more recent playable cards since those are less likely to already get a reprint.

And yet, even regular Birds of Paradise is still four dollars. After a billion reprints and given that it's barely played in constructed formats anymore.

[phonics]

Would looking at the reprinting of shock lands provide some insight towards this? I mean some of the shock lands were printed in smaller sets and they are basically ubiquitous with the format, for example hallowed fountain on tcg has the dissension one at ~25$ and the rtr one at 14$, I think they were ~30$ before rtr came out so they it doesnt look like they have dropped a lot (yet). Sure they arent as expensive as goyf, but I think there are some similarities between them.

[xfxf]

I've gone over the article bruizar linked and one important point I took away from that is we don't know the print runs and the actual figures for card availabilities. This in turn creates and environment where the prices aren't really parallel with their rarities and availabilities. This was something I've been thinking for a while, I think what drives the price of these very "rare" cards, the reserved list cards and other staples (like S&T) are the perception of players about their rarity and overall value. The article was very comprehensive in defining what contributes to the actual prices of cards but I think the price from the perspective of players (or collectors) have more variables associated with it and this perspective is one of the main factors which define the price of cards since we don't have actual data to base the prices on.

Let me get to the point. SCG is still keeping the price for Tarmogoyfs at $100 and I think this is quite important for the future price of Tarmogoyf. If they dropped the price one bit after the Modern Masters announcement people would take this as a sign that the card will tank in value so everybody would start selling out in panic before the lose any more value. Keeping the price at its current level is giving most collectors confidence and thus affecting our perception of the card's value. No matter what the actual print run is, if you can't easily find a Tarmogoyf to trade in your local store and SCG price keeps saying 100 bucks the card will stay at that.

There has to be a noticeable increase in Tarmogoyf's supply after MM's release to change this perception of value. If people can confidently start saying "yeah I can probably trade for it in my local store this weekend, no worries" then, even though we don't know the exact increase in supply, people will stop paying $100 for the old one and price will drop. However, Wizards keep saying it will be a limited print run (whatever that means for a draft intended set) and if coming across a MM Tarmogoyf in a binder becomes as rare as a Future Sight Tarmogoyf then people won't let it go for lower than $100.

Again, SCG's pricing policy is a very important factor in the market. I wonder if they would use this by lowering the price for Tarmogoyf (also the buylist price), dropping the confidence in people and letting them flood the market with it, clearing the market from the lowered buylist price and then creeping it back up to $100 in a few months.

[Lord Seth]

Would looking at the reprinting of shock lands provide some insight towards this? I mean some of the shock lands were printed in smaller sets and they are basically ubiquitous with the format, for example hallowed fountain on tcg has the dissension one at ~25$ and the rtr one at 14$, I think they were ~30$ before rtr came out so they it doesnt look like they have dropped a lot (yet). Sure they arent as expensive as goyf, but I think there are some similarities between them.A big issue is that the shocklands were reprinted in a Standard-legal set and are really big in Standard right now. It's true their price dropped due to the increased quantity, but there's also more demand for them now. Modern Masters isn't going to make Tarmogoyf a must-have card for Standard. Then again, Modern Masters isn't going to have as large a print run as a Standard set, so I guess it kind of evens out.

[FieryBalrog]

Would looking at the reprinting of shock lands provide some insight towards this?

No, because the shocklands were reprinted in a huge print run and are also played in Standard, which basically makes the situation completely different.

I would look at FTV printings and Judge printings as more accurate predictors, given how small the print run for this is supposed to be, and the non-legality in Standard. Both of which are analogues for, say, the reprinting of Sensei's Divining Top in FTV:E.

What that suggests to me is that the price is not going to budge that much.

[bruizar]

No, because the shocklands were reprinted in a huge print run and are also played in Standard, which basically makes the situation completely different.

I would look at FTV printings and Judge printings as more accurate predictors, given how small the print run for this is supposed to be, and the non-legality in Standard. Both of which are analogues for, say, the reprinting of Sensei's Divining Top in FTV:E.

What that suggests to me is that the price is not going to budge that much.

except, FtV isn't a draftable set. WotC needs to releasse print run information, thats it.

[KobeBryan]

No, because the shocklands were reprinted in a huge print run and are also played in Standard, which basically makes the situation completely different.

I would look at FTV printings and Judge printings as more accurate predictors, given how small the print run for this is supposed to be, and the non-legality in Standard. Both of which are analogues for, say, the reprinting of Sensei's Divining Top in FTV:E.

What that suggests to me is that the price is not going to budge that much.

you cannot compare a FTV and judge gifts to a set thats draftable.

[Lord Seth]

The issue is that this all once again comes back to the same point: How limited is this? Yes, it's a limited run, no doubt about that. But "limited" from my understanding just means limited, as in they'll print a certain amount and that's it. But that "certain amount" could be any size.

The only specifics we've really gotten so far is from the official announcement in which it was stated that the amount of the cards printed will be less than the number currently in circulation. That is, Tarmogoyf isn't going to double in supply. And...that's pretty much it.

[KobeBryan]

Originally Posted by Forsythe
#2: Commander's Arsenal Distribution

Like From the Vault, Commander's Arsenal was intentionally produced in small quantities so as to be a collectible. Unfortunately, those quantities were likely too small. It's cool to excite your customers, but not cool to frustrate them.

We took this reaction into account when finalizing the print size for Modern Masters; we have no interest in a repeat performance.



looks like the print run will be higher than expected. i guess the price of goyfs will drop to maybe 40-50 bucks

[DrHealex]

Do you really think they will drop that low if there are like 2-3 goyfs a case and that the purpose of MM is to increase demand for modern cards?

[Bobmans]

I think that Tarmogoyf from Future Sight will even slightly increase in value due to its unique layout and the fact it's from an older set, makes it more interesting for people looking for 'style points'.

The new goyf is, in my opinion, freaking ugly. Anyway, it might go two ways for the MM print. The stock is high and people still prefer the old goyf making the MM drop and become much cheaper than the old one. Or people will want it ASAP after release IOT have a set for when the price gets higher, making the demand grow and thus the price increases rapidly. Nobody trades them, but everybody wants them... To be or not to be...

I wonder what the price of Foil Japanase Future Sight goyfs will do. Currently on MCM theres a playset for 8000 Euros....

[JDK]

In the meantime Goyf has already increased in value (~50€ to 60€).

[KobeBryan]

I think that Tarmogoyf from Future Sight will even slightly increase in value due to its unique layout and the fact it's from an older set, makes it more interesting for people looking for 'style points'.

The new goyf is, in my opinion, freaking ugly. Anyway, it might go two ways for the MM print. The stock is high and people still prefer the old goyf making the MM drop and become much cheaper than the old one. Or people will want it ASAP after release IOT have a set for when the price gets higher, making the demand grow and thus the price increases rapidly. Nobody trades them, but everybody wants them... To be or not to be...

I wonder what the price of Foil Japanase Future Sight goyfs will do. Currently on MCM theres a playset for 8000 Euros....


even the shocklands dropped in value (the old one). Its really impossible to believe that it will increase in price, unless you own a playset and are trying to convince your cards will not be dropping.

The simplest supply and demand theory have this card dropping


In the meantime Goyf has already increased in value (~50€ to 60€).

Modern GP. Modern, and extended always increase in value around this time. Its the legacy cards that drop around this time. But legacy picks up in the summer.

[xfxf]

The simplest supply and demand theory have this card dropping


Did you really ever take any courses on macroeconomics or is this what you heard what should be in supply and demand theory? To me it looks like you're just re-stating what you've read online.

In either case, the Magic cards singles market could have more complex dynamics than "simplest supply and demand theory". Have you ever considered, what if the increase in supply is also causing an increase in demand due to other factors (think about a reprint in Power 9, you know more people would show an interest in Vintage because then acquiring a set of P9 could become a reality)? If the demand increases more than the supply then the price will increase based on the simplest supply and demand theory. Also in Magic cards there are other factors like collectability, a reprint in Wrath of God doesn't affect the price of Beta Wrath of God and such..

Coming to reality from theory, the prices of Tarmogoys actually increased in MKM from around 50 Euros to 60 Euros NM. In fact I bought my playset for 52 Euros each about 10 months ago, so the prices did indeed increase.

After making a Google search for bruizar's quote I came across this article. It can help to go beyond the simplest theories:
Flogging the Data: Determinants of Card Prices, Part 1 (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/1380-flogging-the-data-determinants-of-card-prices-part-1.html)

Flogging the Data: Determinants of Card Prices, Part 2 (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/1381-flogging-the-data-determinants-of-card-prices-part-2.html)

[KobeBryan]

Did you really ever take any courses on macroeconomics or is this what you heard what should be in supply and demand theory? To me it looks like you're just re-stating what you've read online.

In either case, the Magic cards singles market could have more complex dynamics than "simplest supply and demand theory". Have you ever considered, what if the increase in supply is also causing an increase in demand due to other factors (think about a reprint in Power 9, you know more people would show an interest in Vintage because then acquiring a set of P9 could become a reality)? If the demand increases more than the supply then the price will increase based on the simplest supply and demand theory. Also in Magic cards there are other factors like collectability, a reprint in Wrath of God doesn't affect the price of Beta Wrath of God and such..

Coming to reality from theory, the prices of Tarmogoys actually increased in MKM from around 50 Euros to 60 Euros NM. In fact I bought my playset for 52 Euros each about 10 months ago, so the prices did indeed increase.

After making a Google search for bruizar's quote I came across this article. It can help to go beyond the simplest theories:
Flogging the Data: Determinants of Card Prices, Part 1 (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/1380-flogging-the-data-determinants-of-card-prices-part-1.html)

Flogging the Data: Determinants of Card Prices, Part 2 (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/1381-flogging-the-data-determinants-of-card-prices-part-2.html)

What demand are you talking about? Where is this speculated demand that you are driving at?

From what I know, without any speculated demand, the supply is only increased, and not just by a little, but a lot (not a FTV type set)...what does this tell you.

I can't believe you actually spent time reading those articles. Anyone who's taken a class knows that an increased supply of the card will always drive the prices lower. Look at RTR shock lands. they all dropped in price. the demand increased too with people playing standard.

[Koby]

even the shocklands dropped in value (the old one). Its really impossible to believe that it will increase in price, unless you own a playset and are trying to convince your cards will not be dropping.

The simplest supply and demand theory have this card dropping


There's a fundamental difference between Return to Ravnica reprints, and Modern Masters.
1) RTR is Standard legal, has an enormous print run, and is played across 3 formats (Limited, Standard, Modern)
2) RTR is redeemable from MTGO collections -- this adds to increase supply to meet demand
3) the reprints supersede low print run sets (Dissension mainly)

Compared to MM:
1) Only legal in one format (Modern), and is not intended for Limited play
2) Packs will be 75% more expensive
3) No redemption will be available

This ultimately means that any extra copies must be opened from boosters, and as others have pointed out, some players will be hesitant to trade them so they can use it themselves.

Simple S/D only works at the macro level. MTG markets are not large enough to boil it down to that simple economics. Instead, new supply drives new demand as well; and each in turn causes a more dramatic price shift as either parameter becomes saturated.

Examples:
Saturated supply - (RTR Duals), everyone has enough to support their play needs, and prices are kept low.
Saturated demand - (Tarmogoyf), these are unplayable without a set, and the best Modern and Legacy decks feature 4 a piece. News of a reprint causes anticipation of new supply to meet demand, causing further demand for Goyfs. Johnny Comelately now has a chance of putting together Spirit Jund and starts to acquire the other pieces of the deck except Tarmogoyf, for which he cannot afford but hopes to pick up when Modern Masters is released. Long term prospects put the card as being cheaper, but only after initial demand is met with the slow roll-out of supply. Estimated shake-out time 6 months after release.

[marax]

Tarmogoyf demand has gone way up because of Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay making a big splash in Legacy, too.
What would be the price of a chase Mythic like Tarmogoyf in an Inprint Set if boosters were to cost 7$ instead of 4$?
Prices here in Europe for chase mythics typically range from 10 to 15 Euros lower end up to 30 or even 40 Euros form some cards if the mythic was either versy powerful or there were very few other chase cards. Multiply this with a price factor of 1.75 for the increased booster price and then keep in mind that Modern Masters will not be a typical in print (printing as much product as can be sold) edition. Instead only a certain amount of limited product stock will be avaiable and I think it very clear that Tarmogoyf will not drop below a certain price ******** like 30 to 40 Euros. I think the chasing of Modern Masters Goyfs will depress other reprints like filter lands and other cards that might be 5 to 10 Euros now. Tarmogoyf itself will move only slightly. However, there is still 2014 and Modern Masters 2 oder Legacy Masters or whatever. It would be a wasted opportunity for WotC to fix prices completely now by overprinting with the very first Masters. They will try to milk their customer base a couple more times :cool: for Masters Sets.

[xfxf]

I can't believe you actually spent time reading those articles. Anyone who's taken a class knows that an increased supply of the card will always drive the prices lower.

First of all I believe you are still in high school. It's nothing bad, just gives me a frame of reference for discussion. Anyone who has taken "a" class will think that what you learned in 101 class will "always" apply. In real life, dynamics are usually more complex as I said.

The demand I'm driving my argument from is based on observation, can't provide any hard proof really so you are free to dismiss that. However hard fact shows that the price of Tarmogoyf increased in Europe even after the announcement of Modern Masters so that's one thing. I would never do a 1 to 1 trade of my Future Sight Tarmogoyfs with that new fugly Tarmogoyf so that's another thing to consider (hint: collectability over actual use, which the supply demand curve doesn't really have an affect on in this instance).

Honestly I can't see it's price going lower than 10% in the short-term and I think it will remain stable in the long-term.

Edit: I'm not trying to be an elitist and defend the value of my Tarmogoyfs. I do believe that this is the case, and on the other hand hopefully if this turns out to be true then we will all have some grounds to cry over the reserve list. This could show that it's possible to satisfy both the players and the collectors while reprinting high value cards (Duals!).

[KobeBryan]

First of all I believe you are still in high school. It's nothing bad, just gives me a frame of reference for discussion. Anyone who has taken "a" class will think that what you learned in 101 class will "always" apply. In real life, dynamics are usually more complex as I said.

The demand I'm driving my argument from is based on observation, can't provide any hard proof really so you are free to dismiss that. However hard fact shows that the price of Tarmogoyf increased in Europe even after the announcement of Modern Masters so that's one thing. I would never do a 1 to 1 trade of my Future Sight Tarmogoyfs with that new fugly Tarmogoyf so that's another thing to consider (hint: collectability over actual use, which the supply demand curve doesn't really have an affect on in this instance).

Honestly I can't see it's price going lower than 10% in the short-term and I think it will remain stable in the long-term.

Edit: I'm not trying to be an elitist and defend the value of my Tarmogoyfs. I do believe that this is the case, and on the other hand hopefully if this turns out to be true then we will all have some grounds to cry over the reserve list. This could show that it's possible to satisfy both the players and the collectors while reprinting high value cards (Duals!).

As stated by wizards of the coast, the purpose of modern was to allow every player to have access to cards that are difficult to get, either by a limited print run or by a price barrier. WOTC also mentioned that they want an eternal format where they are not restricted from printing cards .

In the long term, its inevitable that the goyf will drop in value.

[Admiral_Arzar]

As stated by wizards of the coast, the purpose of modern was to allow every player to have access to cards that are difficult to get, either by a limited print run or by a price barrier. WOTC also mentioned that they want an eternal format where they are not restricted from printing cards .

In the long term, its inevitable that the goyf will drop in value.

I believe in the "long" term there will be more people playing modern/legacy than there are now. In that case, it depends upon whether they print enough 'goyfs to satisfy that increasing playerbase (unlikely). So no, it is definitely not "inevitable" that 'goyfs will drop in value, at least not on a permanent basis (there could be a TEMPORARY drop after MM release, but prices will continue to increase as more players enter the formats).

[DragoFireheart]

I believe in the "long" term there will be more people playing modern/legacy than there are now. In that case, it depends upon whether they print enough 'goyfs to satisfy that increasing playerbase (unlikely). So no, it is definitely not "inevitable" that 'goyfs will drop in value, at least not on a permanent basis (there could be a TEMPORARY drop after MM release, but prices will continue to increase as more players enter the formats).

Then WotC doesn't understand the purpose of Modern.

[DrHealex]

While the MM mythics and "maybe" rares may remain largely unchanged, all those expensive commons and uncommons can finally get under control. At which point, Wizards has done its job.

Wizards job is not to just start printing $100 cards for everyone, especially when there are MANY decks that even don't play it.

[DragoFireheart]

While the MM mythics and "maybe" rares may remain largely unchanged, all those expensive commons and uncommons can finally get under control. At which point, Wizards has done its job.

Wizards job is not to just start printing $100 cards for everyone, especially when there are MANY decks that even don't play it.

AKA: I don't grasp that someone should play something else because they don't want to dump $400 on four cards.

Just because you are ok with dumping thousands on cards does not mean people want to dump hundreds on cards to play a deck they want in Modern. Jund is one of the best decks and make up at least half of the meta. It's also one of the most expensive. I couldn't give a shit if it bothers people if the price of Tarmogoyf drops. WotC claims to want Modern to be a accessible format: if that means reprinting Tarmogoyf until he drops to $3.00, then I am ok with that. And it is WotC job to print $100 if they want to promote a eternal format that claims to be accessible.

$300-$400 for four cards is not accessible. EVERY deck should be accessible and the only thing that should prevent someone from doing well is their skill level and not the depth of their pockets.

We'll wait and see if MM has a positive impact.

[bruizar]

AKA: I don't grasp that someone should play something else because they don't want to dump $400 on four cards.

Just because you are ok with dumping thousands on cards does not mean people want to dump hundreds on cards to play a deck they want in Modern. Jund is one of the best decks and make up at least half of the meta. It's also one of the most expensive. I couldn't give a shit if it bothers people if the price of Tarmogoyf drops. WotC claims to want Modern to be a accessible format: if that means reprinting Tarmogoyf until he drops to $3.00, then I am ok with that. And it is WotC job to print $100 if they want to promote a eternal format that claims to be accessible.

$300-$400 for four cards is not accessible. EVERY deck should be accessible and the only thing that should prevent someone from doing well is their skill level and not the depth of their pockets.

We'll wait and see if MM has a positive impact.

If every deck is accessible to every player, then everyone will play the best deck. Nice meta!

[JDK]

If every deck is accessible to every player, then everyone will play the best deck. Nice meta!
Is there a "best deck"? In a competitive environment, most players are playing the DTBs anyway. ;)

[Phoenix Ignition]

If every deck is accessible to every player, then everyone will play the best deck. Nice meta!

Your line of logic is flawed in that there is no "best deck." As soon as any deck takes over a majority of the metagame, it will immediately be responded to by players playing a deck that beats that one. No deck has a better than 50% matchup against every deck, that is the whole point of banning cards to keep things somewhat balanced.

[lordofthepit]

I do not mind Wizards printing cards I own, even if they become slightly devalued as a result, if their intention is to promote Legacy. However, if my cards are devalued to support Modern, then fuck that.

[bruizar]

Your line of logic is flawed in that there is no "best deck." As soon as any deck takes over a majority of the metagame, it will immediately be responded to by players playing a deck that beats that one. No deck has a better than 50% matchup against every deck, that is the whole point of banning cards to keep things somewhat balanced.

Vintage used to be diverse. Then, the only players who were left were the ones who already had all the cards. Workshop took over and its the best deck in that format.

I dont see why that cant happen to legacy.

[Barook]

However, if my cards are devalued to support Modern, then fuck that.
Considering those cards are popular in Modern as well and therefore got lots of their value from it, I think this logic is terribly flawed.

[lordofthepit]

Considering those cards are popular in Modern as well and therefore got lots of their value from it, I think this logic is terribly flawed.

They should just print a Jund preconstructed deck so everyone can get a copy at Target and play Modern until they get bored.

[Tormod]

They should just print a Jund preconstructed deck so everyone can get a copy at Target and play Modern until they get bored.

This made me laugh, hilarious!

[DragoFireheart]

If every deck is accessible to every player, then everyone will play the best deck. Nice meta!

AKA: I want to spend my way to victory and I don't want poor people competing with me.

You collectors already have a strangle hold on Legacy ala Reserved List. Fuck you if you want to extend that to Modern: stop trying to promote a elitist environment where only people who pay will win. If you want to blow your money and win based on how much you spend, go play slots at a casino and quit polluting my fun card games.


Vintage used to be diverse. Then, the only players who were left were the ones who already had all the cards. Workshop took over and its the best deck in that format.

I dont see why that cant happen to legacy.

And this is why WotC made Modern in the first place: because of "investors" like bruizar.

[Lt. Quattro]

Vintage used to be diverse. Then, the only players who were left were the ones who already had all the cards. Workshop took over and its the best deck in that format.

I dont see why that cant happen to legacy.


AKA: I want to spend my way to victory and I don't want poor people competing with me.

You collectors already have a strangle hold on Legacy ala Reserved List. Fuck you if you want to extend that to Modern: stop trying to promote a elitist environment where only people who pay will win. If you want to blow your money and win based on how much you spend, go play slots at a casino and quit polluting my fun card games.



And this is why WotC made Modern in the first place: because of "investors" like bruizar.

This is what I got from bruizar's post.

Vintage was diverse when players couldn't play whatever they wanted (best deck).
When the player base shrank, only the people with all the cards were left so they played the best deck.
This led to a stale format and turned boring.

Bruizar doesn't see a reason why this couldn't happen to legacy.

[bruizar]

This is what I got from bruizar's post.

Vintage was diverse when players couldn't play whatever they wanted (best deck).
When the player base shrank, only the people with all the cards were left so they played the best deck.
This led to a stale format and turned boring.

Bruizar doesn't see a reason why this couldn't happen to legacy.

That is exactly right. I don't know the solution because people can get frustrated and quit the format if they cant play their deck of choice, but giving everyone access to the best deck has exactly the same result, namely homogenization of the meta. I think the trick is to make several cards cheaper, but dont go overboard with reprints. To some extent, card inavailability is a good thing. Players will have a road to travel. Remember, the journey is always more important than the end result. A second argument to this is based on what i saw US proxy events do to the vintage scene. Short-term spike because every scrub could now play real decks. Long-term attrition of the player base because they had no vested interest in the format.

I think niche decks like imperial painter or dutch stax should remain unavailable to most players. They arent even dominant decks, but its a way for those that have 4 moats or 4 imperial recruiters to show off and feel unique. This is important because, why else do we have korean lovers, beta dual guys, foil collectors or people with altered art? Its important to understand the power of the e-peen and the value of bragging rights.

[menace13]

Vintage used to be diverse. Then, the only players who were left were the ones who already had all the cards. Workshop took over and its the best deck in that format.

I dont see why that cant happen to legacy.
Lodestone Golem changed Workshop to the best strategy, and not the only players who were left had Workshop orgies.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by bruizar http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=695358#post695358)
If every deck is accessible to every player, then everyone will play the best deck. Nice meta!
You don't really believe this, Do you?

Using Workshop decks in vintage as an example is misleading.

Lodestone has been the best deck since Mid 2010.
Lots of different other decks at that second place spot, but nothing has kept Lodestone off the top spot. There is nothing healthy when one deck shits on first place for 19 out of 24 months.

Delver RUG did nearly the same thing in the past 18 months in Legacy.

[bruizar]

If yo already have power 9 for your blue deck, its not that big of a hurdle to get a set of shops. The demographic of vintage players is largely made up if people with jobs. Also, the rest of the deck costs what..200 bucks? Probably less than that.

I will admit that lodestone made shops the strongest deck, but that does not invalidate my claims that the haves (powered players) stood around (not all ofcourse) while the have nots disappeared, homogenizing the meta.

[kiblast]

That is exactly right. I don't know the solution because people can get frustrated and quit the format if they cant play their deck of choice, but giving everyone access to the best deck has exactly the same result, namely homogenization of the meta. I think the trick is to make several cards cheaper, but dont go overboard with reprints. To some extent, card inavailability is a good thing. Players will have a road to travel. Remember, the journey is always more important than the end result. A second argument to this is based on what i saw US proxy events do to the vintage scene. Short-term spike because every scrub could now play real decks. Long-term attrition of the player base because they had no vested interest in the format.

I think niche decks like imperial painter or dutch stax should remain unavailable to most players. They arent even dominant decks, but its a way for those that have 4 moats or 4 imperial recruiters to show off and feel unique. This is important because, why else do we have korean lovers, beta dual guys, foil collectors or people with altered art? Its important to understand the power of the e-peen and the value of bragging rights.

bruizar is right. Imagine a format where everybody has access to everything. I would never play in such format as part (huge) part of this hobby for me is tracking down cool cards that are only available in that ''form'',printing etc... I would honestly ragequit if tomorrow Moat is a 10$ card, as I invested lot of time and money to track down my 2 en nm Moats for a decent price. I was 22 when I spent 320$ on them and I didn't even have a job back then...
I'd say it's ok to sensibly broaden avalability for certain cards, but not for all of the 20$+ cards, that would be ridicolous.

[DragoFireheart]

bruizar is right. Imagine a format where everybody has access to everything. I would never play in such format as part (huge) part of this hobby for me is tracking down cool cards that are only available in that ''form'',printing etc... I would honestly ragequit if tomorrow Moat is a 10$ card, as I invested lot of time and money to track down my 2 en nm Moats for a decent price. I was 22 when I spent 320$ on them and I didn't even have a job back then...
I'd say it's ok to sensibly broaden avalability for certain cards, but not for all of the 20$+ cards, that would be ridicolous.

AKA: I paid more money, therefore I should win and not because I outplayed the other player.

Again, people like you are why Legacy is "crippled" from the Reserved List. It's also why no one plays Vintage beyond local tournaments with proxies. It's also why WotC made Modern. I wish WotC made a new Moat and you rage quit. You and the rest of the investors would not be missed because you were never interested in encouraging a healthy game anyways. The new players who think ANT decks and Goblin decks are badass would easily replace you. You would be forgotten and we would all laugh at how stupid the Reserved List was.

Sadly, WotC is too chicken shit to piss of the poor investors who are honestly better off buying stocks if they care so much about money.

[bruizar]

AKA: I paid more money, therefore I should win and not because I outplayed the other player.

Again, people like you are why Legacy is "crippled" from the Reserved List. It's also why no one plays Vintage beyond local tournaments with proxies. It's also why WotC made Modern. I wish WotC made a new Moat and you rage quit. You and the rest of the investors would not be missed because you were never interested in encouraging a healthy game anyways. The new players who think ANT decks and Goblin decks are badass would easily replace you. You would be forgotten and we would all laugh at how stupid the Reserved List was.

Sadly, WotC is too chicken shit to piss of the poor investors who are honestly better off buying stocks if they care so much about money.

The legacy you want would turn into a communistic environment. I don't believe in that system. I believe in a capitalistic environment where obtaining things you want costs effort and those who put in the most effort win. Your sense of entitlement amazes me.

[DragoFireheart]

The legacy you want would turn into a communistic environment.

Trololololol.

Anyways, back on topic. If WotC is going to be printing MM in large quantities, Goyf will drop at least 10-15 dollars. If MM is a success and they do regular print runs to maintain a certain value of cards, I suspect WotC wouldn't mind seeing Goyf drop to the $50 range. Part of the problem of expensive cards is that SCG likes to buy up cards from smaller stores and then jack up the prices if the demand for them is there.

[bruizar]

Trololololol.

I hope you understand what Collectible means in the term Collectible Trading Card Game. If you don't like that part, I suggest you play poker. Oh wait, you'd be raised and reraised out of your chair by the people who have money.

EDIT:
I don't own any Tarmogoyfs. I don't want them unless I can obtain foil future sight ones. As long as I don't have foil goyfs, I refuse to play decks that run them. I still have plenty of other options so I really don't understand the issue. There are many decks I can play without Tarmogoyfs. I'd have no problem with them being 200$ for a non-foil. It's a vanilla creature, you don't need that to win. Also, for those that aren't playing with Goyfs, there's this $2.99 alternative called Rest in Peace. I heard it hoses Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker. And loam, and snapcaster, and dredge, and witness, and academy rector, and reanimator, and zombardment.....

[kiblast]

AKA: I paid more money, therefore I should win and not because I outplayed the other player.

Again, people like you are why Legacy is "crippled" from the Reserved List. It's also why no one plays Vintage beyond local tournaments with proxies. It's also why WotC made Modern. I wish WotC made a new Moat and you rage quit. You and the rest of the investors would not be missed because you were never interested in encouraging a healthy game anyways. The new players who think ANT decks and Goblin decks are badass would easily replace you. You would be forgotten and we would all laugh at how stupid the Reserved List was.

Sadly, WotC is too chicken shit to piss of the poor investors who are honestly better off buying stocks if they care so much about money.

First of all, I'm not an investor. I didn't corner the market buying 100 Moats at 140$ just to see them skyrocket after 48 hrs. I just bought 2 Moats for me. Which makes a huge difference. I didn't buy Moats because they seemed a worthwhile investment, I bought them because I wanted to play that card with that particular effect and because I needed them for Caw Cartel. This is at the base of the concept of collectible card game : to me it means that you have to spend a certain amount of money (or start a trade) based on scarcity and power level of the particular card you want to play. If you want to play a card game in which only skill level is important, play competitive hold'em. Obviously not cash game.
If you start reprinting everything in mass quantities, the game ceases to be collectible and becomes something else.
I never said that I want to win because I spend money. I'm perfectly fine if I build a perfectly tuned Caw Cartel Miracles list and the first kiddo drops 20dmg of burn to my face by turn 3. I'm cool with that as it's part of the game. However I won't accept that my collectible and therefore valuable cards become 10$ stuff. I'm ok if they want to start reprinting as long as they don't flood the market and original prints still detain their value. In fact I'd love to see a reprint for Moat as much as I liked the new Maze of Ith, Confdants, Recruiters etc. But the key point is that they don't have to flood the market.
Actually the communistic / capitalistic analogy that bruizar used works, even if instead of arguing and giving a possible answer, all you could find was ''trolololol''.

[DragoFireheart]

First of all, I'm not an investor. I didn't corner the market buying 100 Moats at 140$ just to see them skyrocket after 48 hrs. I just bought 2 Moats for me. Which makes a huge difference. I didn't buy Moats because they seemed a worthwhile investment, I bought them because I wanted to play that card with that particular effect and because I needed them for Caw Cartel. This is at the base of the concept of collectible card game : to me it means that you have to spend a certain amount of money (or start a trade) based on scarcity and power level of the particular card you want to play. If you want to play a card game in which only skill level is important, play competitive hold'em. Obviously not cash game.
If you start reprinting everything in mass quantities, the game ceases to be collectible and becomes something else.
I never said that I want to win because I spend money. I'm perfectly fine if I build a perfectly tuned Caw Cartel Miracles list and the first kiddo drops 20dmg of burn to my face by turn 3. I'm cool with that as it's part of the game. However I won't accept that my collectible and therefore valuable cards become 10$ stuff. I'm ok if they want to start reprinting as long as they don't flood the market and original prints still detain their value. In fact I'd love to see a reprint for Moat as much as I liked the new Maze of Ith, Confdants, Recruiters etc. But the key point is that they don't have to flood the market.
Actually the communistic / capitalistic analogy that bruizar used works, even if instead of arguing and giving a possible answer, all you could find was ''trolololol''.

Collectible implies that you acquire a large quantity of something. Collectible does not imply valuable. Someone can collect something because of reasons other than monetary value, such as sentimental value or for construction of something (aka, tournament decks). You are changing the definition of collectible in this context to imply that your collection should have monetary value. If WotC truly cared about your definition in spirit, they would have never made Modern as a solution to their mistake in making the Reserved List. WotC is not maintaining the reserved list because they care about the monetary value of the cards: they only cared enough to make it so they wouldn't piss off people that they sell packs to because THEY decided that their collection should be valuable.

Again, collectible != valuable.

[bruizar]

Collectible implies that you acquire a large quantity of something. Collectible does not imply valuable. Someone can collect something because of reasons other than monetary value, such as sentimental value or for construction of something (aka, tournament decks). You are changing the definition of collectible in this context to imply that your collection should have monetary value. If WotC truly cared about your definition in spirit, they would have never made Modern as a solution to their mistake in making the Reserved List. WotC is not maintaining the reserved list because they care about the monetary value of the cards: they only cared enough to make it so they wouldn't piss off people that they sell packs to because THEY decided that their collection should be valuable.

Again, collectible != valuable.

Let's take art collecting as an example. An art collector collects of art. The thing with art is that the pieces are unique. There is only 1 Nightwatch and 1 Mona Lisa. It's therefore impossible to collect a large quantity of the same piece, but you can collect multiple pieces from the same artist. The scarcity and desirability of the artwork make the price. The same applies to Magic. Collectible does imply value. Even if the reasons are not monetary, the fact that you wish to collect many of the same card will have an impact on the value. It's a desirable card, at least for you. A good example is alpha Zombie Master. $199.99 out of stock, 0 on MagicCardMarket. Why? Because there's a dude hoarding them all because he collects them and he has a significant amount of the alpha Zombie Masters on the planet. Not because of tournament play viability, but because he likes Zombie Masters.

collectible = valuable

from dictionary.com:

col·lect·i·ble [kuh-lek-tuh-buh l] Show IPA
adjective
1.
capable of being collected.
noun
2.
an object suitable for a collection, originally a work of fine art or an antique, now including also any of a wide variety of items collected as a hobby, for display, or as an investment whose value may appreciate.


WotC is not maintaining the reserved list because they care about the monetary value of the cards
You do understand the whole reason behind the reserved list is because Chronicles devalued every reprinted card from AN/AQ/LG right? Cards like Hell's Caretaker crashed overnight from 30 to 5. Cards like Strip Mine, Mishra's Factory, Whirling Dervish, Ernham Djinn and Killerbees, and many more all got axed hard.

[DragoFireheart]

Collectible means rarity however, and in most cases rarity means values. Unfortunately in Magic's case this value is becoming a thorn.

Exactly. At this point, we ask ourselves this:

Is it more important that our cards retain monetary value at the expense of making it accessible?
Is it more important that our cards make the game accessible at the expense of lowering their monetary value?

The creation of Modern and the lack of attention given to Vintage/Legacy (compared to Modern) says to me that WotC prefers to answer the latter question

[Namida]

Exactly. At this point, we ask ourselves this:

Is it more important that our cards retain monetary value at the expense of making it accessible?
Is it more important that our cards make the game accessible at the expense of lowering their monetary value?

The creation of Modern and the lack of attention given to Vintage/Legacy (compared to Modern) says to me that WotC prefers to answer the latter question

And the article introducing Modern Masters implies that WotC understands that making the game accessible at the expense of lowering the monetary value of valuable cards almost killed the game years ago to the extent that the amount of product they're actually going to be printing is laughable in the context of lowering card prices.

[Sansian]

Allow me to settle this argument in one sentence. Magic: the Gathering is a TCG (Trading Card Game) not a CCG (Collectible Card Game.)

[Vicar in a tutu]

Allow me to settle this argument in one sentence. Magic: the Gathering is a TCG (Trading Card Game) not a CCG (Collectible Card Game.)
Well, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

[DragoFireheart]

Well, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

Yeah, he didn't make a very good argument. I'm pretty certain that regardless of the label, be it CCG or TCG, people are going to view magic the same way: a card game where you can trade and gather a collection.

[dunk]

I think it's a good time to bring this thread back to page 1.

Did anything change? Has Goyf even dropped by 1 dollar? At least on the European market it doesn't seem to have dropped at all. And the new Goyf is like 10-20% higher rated in value even.

[Mewens]

lmao, yeah, 'Goyf went up. I'm seeing $120 on retail sites (and eBay isn't much better).

I've heard that Magic had an explosion of popularity over the last five years; the numbers I've seen quoted (I don't have a primary source) suggest a four-fold increase over that period. That's a pretty hefty jump, and goes some distance toward explaining the across-the-board cost increases in the game.

I'm willing to bet that the new art in this set will actually cause other cards to get pulled up, too; particularly the Swords, Shackles and Ravager. Both versions will be sought after by admirers for aesthetic reasons; for many people, one version of Sword of Fire and Ice might as well be Bonesplitter for all they'll want it. If the upward price pressure on one version is strong enough, one imagines that the other could get pulled up with it, assuming that people aren't just throwing away one version of the card for being uggo.

[TsumiBand]

lmao, yeah, 'Goyf went up. I'm seeing $120 on retail sites (and eBay isn't much better).

I've heard that Magic had an explosion of popularity over the last five years; the numbers I've seen quoted (I don't have a primary source) suggest a four-fold increase over that period. That's a pretty hefty jump, and goes some distance toward explaining the across-the-board cost increases in the game.

I'm willing to bet that the new art in this set will actually cause other cards to get pulled up, too; particularly the Swords, Shackles and Ravager. Both versions will be sought after by admirers for aesthetic reasons; for many people, one version of Sword of Fire and Ice might as well be Bonesplitter for all they'll want it. If the upward price pressure on one version is strong enough, one imagines that the other could get pulled up with it, assuming that people aren't just throwing away one version of the card for being uggo.

I do not want to call it early. MM has been available for like what two weeks? One? I could Google it, but lazy.

Here's my knee-jerk reaction, and I'll call it what it is, because that is what it is. But, when it comes to the truly critical cards, the price doesn't ever have to drop, and those responsible for explaining the current price of a given card can now simply claim that because each version is unique, it is a unique collectable.

Again, because we are talking about the most playable cards, the Birds of Paradise example need not hold up, because a number of cards have supplanted it. Deathrite Shaman and Noble Hierarch would arguably be much stronger - even if not strictly better - so to that end, the number of cards in existence has a much lower effect on a truly desirable card's price.

I expect that, even though the cards are functionally identical in the game, but because they are literally different prints, the price need never drop on either of them. They have different art, from different periods, and have different kinds of demand. It's like saying that Coke and Coke Zero don't compete with each other because they appeal to different people. Some folks do not care whether their soda has sugar in it. Some people do. The taste is functionally identical for the purposes of this argument (though I notice a difference but maybe not everyone does - it fits the analogy if we act like it's the same, I guess).

[Michael Keller]

Don't look now, but go check the price of Transmute Artifact. (It may not be Tarmogoyf, but whatever - these threads are a dime a dozen at this point.)

[ActionJunkie]

Allow me to settle this argument in one sentence. Magic: the Gathering is a TCG (Trading Card Game) not a CCG (Collectible Card Game.)

In the 90s and in the last few years I've come back, I've never heard one person refer to MTG as a TCG. I've always heard CCG including old publications and current internet articles. And, yeah, there are obviously collectors so the TCG argument wouldn't hold water.

Goyf isn't going anywhere being a mythic and MM bringing new players. However, the $10-$20 cards have all almost dropped 50%. The $20 cards have lost ~$5-$10, and Clique is currently down $10-$15. Supply is high right now so expect most of those cards to trend back up as time passes.

[TsumiBand]

WotC is not maintaining the reserved list because they care about the monetary value of the cards: they only cared enough to make it so they wouldn't piss off people that they sell packs to because THEY decided that their collection should be valuable.

Unfortunately, I do not think that is the case across the board. On his Tumblr, MaRo mentions the value of cards is a direct factor in determining or maintaining their rarity.


lowbeyonder asked: If, purely theoretically, Thoughtseize were to be reprinted, would it be kept at rare? If so, why?

Hypothetically, it would be to keep from devaluing the card for the many people who value it.

Now, reprinting Thoughtseize vs. abolishing the Reserve List are two different kettles of fish. But if part of the motive can be expressed as a function of the card's actual value? Then there's a clear intent to maintain the price of cards that are (justifiably) rare.

I think I said as much earlier on this thread, but rarity in any set that sees a low print run in general is way less critical than in a major set. Sol Ring and Command Tower saw the exact same number of prints in the Commander product, but one is a common and one is an uncommon. In the context of that set, their rarity means nothing; there was one in every deck. Command Tower is also useless outside of EDH but carries something like a $5 price tag. When is the last time a so-called common went for $5 just two years (nearly to the day -- June 17 2011 was the release date) after it went out of print?

At any rate, the more I think about it the less I appreciate it; it is a strange proposition to sell or maintain a game where the best pieces have the highest price point. If I had to pay 25 cents for every pawn and 5 bucks for the king and queen, but 120-apiece for the rest of the back row, I'd be pretty sure that I wouldn't play chess. Why would I make an exception with Magic? (actually, I don't -- I buy cheap jank, but that's my own problem).

[Megadeus]

At any rate, the more I think about it the less I appreciate it; it is a strange proposition to sell or maintain a game where the best pieces have the highest price point. If I had to pay 25 cents for every pawn and 5 bucks for the king and queen, but 120-apiece for the rest of the back row, I'd be pretty sure that I wouldn't play chess. Why would I make an exception with Magic? (actually, I don't -- I buy cheap jank, but that's my own problem).

I feel like this is a bad comparison.... In chess you have set pieces. Everyone is equal in what pieces they get and it is dependent upon skill. There is no rock paper scissors like in magic.

[TsumiBand]

I feel like this is a bad comparison.... In chess you have set pieces. Everyone is equal in what pieces they get and it is dependent upon skill. There is no rock paper scissors like in magic.

To this extent I think that demand doesn't affect the price of Chess pieces, because one does not need the pieces so much as the game. It's like saying the top hat in Monopoly is 'worth less' than the race car, because reasons.

But really, we *do* have pieces that are closer to "set pieces" than others. It isn't as if one can just exchange Taigas and Wild Nacatls for Kazandu Refuges and Rogue Elephants; I think in a relative way this analogy holds up because each deck arguably has a hierarchy of cards, which is supported by a hierarchy of format staples - some of which have not been obviated for a decade or more, and probably cannot be due to the very nature of the Reprint Policy.

I mean I don't have to rattle off Eternal pillar cards, it's enough to know they exist and that they are about as fundamental to Legacy as your rooks, Queens, or dice are to other games. We can create strawman situations where they are bad, or belie their importance by pointing back at the 99% of Magic cards which are technically Legacy legal and saying "Didn't Turbofog just 5-0 a tournament, lol clearly you can just play anything you want and win if you aren't terrible" -- but those are distractions from the primary issue and virtually irrelevant in competitive situations.

[Tylert]

One thing i can't understand, is that collectors accept the fact that wizard can at any time print a card that is better than a legacy staple while doing exactly the same thing and make the staple price completely crash, or print a hate card that is so good that it can be played MD in many decks that it will make the hated staple price crash also...
However, they don't accept that their staples are reprinted causing the price to crash...

If you can accept one of these, why not the other?

[(nameless one)]

One thing i can't understand, is that collectors accept the fact that wizard can at any time print a card that is better than a legacy staple while doing exactly the same thing and make the staple price completely crash, or print a hate card that is so good that it can be played MD in many decks that it will make the hated staple price crash also...
However, they don't accept that their staples are reprinted causing the price to crash...

If you can accept one of these, why not the other?

Because a lot of them aren't really the brightest of the bunch.

They compensate with it by using terms like "investment" and other business terminology to try to make money off of a game. When they make money, it makes them sound smart.

[dunk]

Real collectors don't care about prices and reprints. Real collectors go for everything that gets printed or unique stuff like missprints, sealed boxes etc. They don't care about an investment, they care about collecting Magic cards...

I think what you mean is "speculators". And yeah, nothing worse than randomly sitting on 50 Thoughtseize that you wanted to unload during the next modern season and hearing that it *might* be in m14.

[Dzra]

I think there is a middle ground here. I have a pretty large MTG collection, but I'm also a player and would hate to see Legacy die the way Vintage did. I don't buy cards to speculate, but at the same time, I don't want the value of my collection to drop significantly overnight.

It doesn't seem good for the game if someone can make a 50$ trade one week and have their card drop 40$ in value the next week just because they were on the wrong end of a reprint. That said, I think that Modern Masters seems to be fine so far and I would love to see something similarly done with Legacy.

I don't think that there is much harm in reprinting staples, as long as you are careful. There are a few factors that go into the pricing of cards. The ones that everyone likes to focus on are current demand and print run. The factor that people pay less attention to is the potential growth of the player base. There is an argument for reprinting Goyfs, FoWs, and dual lands that ends with the price of these staples staying the same or even rising. When you make older formats more accessible by reprinting, you increase the player base, which increases demand, and thus price.

This doesn't mean that you can just flood the market, as that will cause a crash. It does mean that there is a way to reprint staples such that older players' cards retain value, while newer players have a chance to buy into the format. That is basically what you are seeing via Goyf. Right now, Goyf is likely still underprinted for its demand. Obviously there's a flooding point that you want to avoid, but there's also a sweet spot that encourages growth while retaining value.

[thulnanth]

I think there is a middle ground here. I have a pretty large MTG collection, but I'm also a player and would hate to see Legacy die the way Vintage did. I don't buy cards to speculate, but at the same time, I don't want the value of my collection to drop significantly overnight.

It doesn't seem good for the game if someone can make a 50$ trade one week and have their card drop 40$ in value the next week just because they were on the wrong end of a reprint. That said, I think that Modern Masters seems to be fine so far and I would love to see something similarly done with Legacy.

I don't think that there is much harm in reprinting staples, as long as you are careful. There are a few factors that go into the pricing of cards. The ones that everyone likes to focus on are current demand and print run. The factor that people pay less attention to is the potential growth of the player base. There is an argument for reprinting Goyfs, FoWs, and dual lands that ends with the price of these staples staying the same or even rising. When you make older formats more accessible by reprinting, you increase the player base, which increases demand, and thus price.

This doesn't mean that you can just flood the market, as that will cause a crash. It does mean that there is a way to reprint staples such that older players' cards retain value, while newer players have a chance to buy into the format. That is basically what you are seeing via Goyf. Right now, Goyf is likely still underprinted for its demand. Obviously there's a flooding point that you want to avoid, but there's also a sweet spot that encourages growth while retaining value.

Amen... where's the like button? :tongue:

Take it easy,
Jared

[Gheizen64]

Now with the new Legendary rules making Legendary Duals good enough for legacy (as 1-ofs obviously) if WotC want to support this format like they did with Modern Master, they can. Printing a set of Legendary Duals would be good enough to decrease demand on original duals by 30% or so (considering that most decks play 3 copies of a single dual at most), so a good 150-200$ dollars shaved from each multicolor deck. That'd go a long way and the increased overall demand would probably keep duals prices stable or only slightly dipping.

[SpikeyMikey]

Let's take art collecting as an example. An art collector collects of art. The thing with art is that the pieces are unique. There is only 1 Nightwatch and 1 Mona Lisa. It's therefore impossible to collect a large quantity of the same piece, but you can collect multiple pieces from the same artist. The scarcity and desirability of the artwork make the price. The same applies to Magic. Collectible does imply value. Even if the reasons are not monetary, the fact that you wish to collect many of the same card will have an impact on the value. It's a desirable card, at least for you. A good example is alpha Zombie Master. $199.99 out of stock, 0 on MagicCardMarket. Why? Because there's a dude hoarding them all because he collects them and he has a significant amount of the alpha Zombie Masters on the planet. Not because of tournament play viability, but because he likes Zombie Masters.

collectible = valuable

from dictionary.com:

col·lect·i·ble [kuh-lek-tuh-buh l] Show IPA
adjective
1.
capable of being collected.
noun
2.
an object suitable for a collection, originally a work of fine art or an antique, now including also any of a wide variety of items collected as a hobby, for display, or as an investment whose value may appreciate.


You do understand the whole reason behind the reserved list is because Chronicles devalued every reprinted card from AN/AQ/LG right? Cards like Hell's Caretaker crashed overnight from 30 to 5. Cards like Strip Mine, Mishra's Factory, Whirling Dervish, Ernham Djinn and Killerbees, and many more all got axed hard.

The initial point he made was that collectible is not the same as valuable. So you bold 1/4 of the definition and think that because that matches what you say, that the whole thing does. I can't tell if that's just being obtuse or trolling.

Whether or not collectible can mean valuable (and of course, it can), that is not inherently a requirement of a collectible. Nor was this game intended to ever reach this point. TCG/CCG discussion aside, card prices were never meant to be this high. That's why the RL was a mistake. Don't take my word for it, listen to Richard Garfield.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gtqv5vYANI&feature=related

$200 Underground Seas are not OK. Honestly, I've wandered back away from these boards again, for the most part. I mean, I used to love this format. Ate, breathed and slept Legacy. I was on these forums 2 dozen times a day. I'd read just about every new post as soon as it was posted. I'd be mentally tweaking decks while I was in the shower. Then I got out. Got back in a couple years ago, then decided it wasn't worth having that much in cardboard and sold out. Last fall, I had this silly idea that I should get back into Legacy. So I started buying cards again. Then other things came up and I just didn't have the money. But even if they hadn't, the deck I was working on building would not have been where I wanted to be by the time I got all the cards together for it. Metagames shift and where your sweet spot is today is not where it's going to be 6-8 months from now when you've finally bought the dozen duals and fetches for your deck. Could I play Legacy with a budget deck? Sure, I could. I wouldn't really enjoy it, it wouldn't be the optimal deck for me to play, but I could do it. But why would I do something I don't enjoy and won't win me any money at significant financial cost? I mean, it's stupid to spend thousands of dollars on cardboard but spending hundreds of dollars on cardboard and then hating it is even more stupid than that.

Maybe in a few years, I'll get that itch again, come back, realize it's too expensive and get out again after wasting a few months chasing cards. Maybe I'll see you all again here in a few years. Or maybe Legacy will finally die in the meantime. I don't really know and I don't really care.

[nedleeds]

Goyf still being ~$110 should be proof to the players crying for $5 staple modern cards that you are just delusional. Demand for all these staples far outstrips supply; maybe GP Vegas will dent that a bit - but once the casuals gut the supply and the EDH beards gut some more there will still be more demand as players graduate from standard.

Any of you who simultaneously tout your tenure and cry about prices can just go apply for food stamps. You should never have sold your stuff, and if you had to for personal financial reasons and couldn't afford to buy back in then tough shit. That's life. Obama Masters isn't coming for the masses anytime soon. There are enough staples to keep legacy around for years. Enjoy standard, or paying 75% of the value of a legacy deck for a shitty modern deck.

[Barook]

Goyf still being ~$110 should be proof to the players crying for $5 staple modern cards that you are just delusional. Demand for all these staples far outstrips supply; maybe GP Vegas will dent that a bit - but once the casuals gut the supply and the EDH beards gut some more there will still be more demand as players graduate from standard.
Since there are at least 4k players (--> 24000 packs), and with 53 rares around, there should be an average of 450 new Goyfs (and a few foil ones). I doubt that would increase the supply that much.

Edit: Nevermind, Goyf is Mythic, so the math is off.

[lordofthepit]

I think there is a middle ground here. I have a pretty large MTG collection, but I'm also a player and would hate to see Legacy die the way Vintage did. I don't buy cards to speculate, but at the same time, I don't want the value of my collection to drop significantly overnight.

It doesn't seem good for the game if someone can make a 50$ trade one week and have their card drop 40$ in value the next week just because they were on the wrong end of a reprint. That said, I think that Modern Masters seems to be fine so far and I would love to see something similarly done with Legacy.

I don't think that there is much harm in reprinting staples, as long as you are careful. There are a few factors that go into the pricing of cards. The ones that everyone likes to focus on are current demand and print run. The factor that people pay less attention to is the potential growth of the player base. There is an argument for reprinting Goyfs, FoWs, and dual lands that ends with the price of these staples staying the same or even rising. When you make older formats more accessible by reprinting, you increase the player base, which increases demand, and thus price.

This doesn't mean that you can just flood the market, as that will cause a crash. It does mean that there is a way to reprint staples such that older players' cards retain value, while newer players have a chance to buy into the format. That is basically what you are seeing via Goyf. Right now, Goyf is likely still underprinted for its demand. Obviously there's a flooding point that you want to avoid, but there's also a sweet spot that encourages growth while retaining value.

Great post, agreed 100%.

[TsumiBand]

Goyf still being ~$110 should be proof to the players crying for $5 staple modern cards that you are just delusional. Demand for all these staples far outstrips supply; maybe GP Vegas will dent that a bit - but once the casuals gut the supply and the EDH beards gut some more there will still be more demand as players graduate from standard.

Any of you who simultaneously tout your tenure and cry about prices can just go apply for food stamps. You should never have sold your stuff, and if you had to for personal financial reasons and couldn't afford to buy back in then tough shit. That's life. Obama Masters isn't coming for the masses anytime soon. There are enough staples to keep legacy around for years. Enjoy standard, or paying 75% of the value of a legacy deck for a shitty modern deck.

I don't know if this is a legit troll or not, but that's pretty fucked up.

For my part - I've never genuinely expected Goyfs to drop down to where they were when people were still saying "Werebear > this" in three-color Threshold decks, but paying $100 for a single Magic card has never seemed reasonable to me.

It is true that the Venn diagram of Eternal-legal staples is more strained in recent years than it has been in a long time - anyone who dismisses the effect of EDH on the price of anything remotely playable in Legacy is forgetting that inasmuch as people who are interested in Magic are concerned, people who play competitively are a huge minority. The grand majority of players are kitchen table and surprise surprise - they know about Google, which told them about dual lands and how much better than shocks they are. The number of players who genuinely value their Hallowed Fountains over Tundras they don't own are shitting themselves. Everyone knows which cards are the good ones, and I've never understood the people that claim otherwise. "I only need the one" doesn't reduce demand; it's +1 player who wants to acquire a Taiga.

As for roping in oblique references to food stamps or Obama - the hell's the matter with you? What in the name of Samuel L. Jackson does that honestly have to do with anything. If you genuinely think the value that people place on cards is necessarily tied in with government handouts - you HAVE to just be in troll mode. It shouldn't even be dignified with a response.

[Giants1990]

I don't know if this is a legit troll or not, but that's pretty fucked up.
For my part - I've never genuinely expected Goyfs to drop down to where they were when people were still saying "Werebear > this" in three-color Threshold decks, but paying $100 for a single Magic card has never seemed reasonable to me.It is true that the Venn diagram of Eternal-legal staples is more strained in recent years than it has been in a long time - anyone who dismisses the effect of EDH on the price of anything remotely playable in Legacy is forgetting that inasmuch as people who are interested in Magic are concerned, people who play competitively are a huge minority. The grand majority of players are kitchen table and surprise surprise - they know about Google, which told them about dual lands and how much better than shocks they are. The number of players who genuinely value their Hallowed Fountains over Tundras they don't own are shitting themselves. Everyone knows which cards are the good ones, and I've never understood the people that claim otherwise. "I only need the one" doesn't reduce demand; it's +1 player who wants to acquire a T
As for roping in oblique references to food stamps or Obama - the hell's the matter with you? What in the name of Samuel L. Jackson does that honestly have to do with anything. If you genuinely think the value that people place on cards is necessarily tied in with government handouts - you HAVE to just be in troll mode. It shouldn't even be dignified with a response..The fact is if you can't afford something, especially a hobby, because of your financial situation then you really have no right to complain about how much the hobby costs. I want a Ferrari, but I don't complain to the dealer that the price is too high for me to afford it. I don't tell them to lower the price of the car to $50k. I can't afford it, so I have to let it go. Tarmogoyf is too expensive for you? Get another job. Work for it. But don't complain because WotC isn't handing them out to everyone. In fact, go play Monopoly. All the pieces in the game are included right out of the box.

[TsumiBand]

.The fact is if you can't afford something, especially a hobby, because of your financial situation then you really have no right to complain about how much the hobby costs. I want a Ferrari, but I don't complain to the dealer that the price is too high for me to afford it. I don't tell them to lower the price of the car to $50k. I can't afford it, so I have to let it go. Tarmogoyf is too expensive for you? Get another job. Work for it. But don't complain because WotC isn't handing them out to everyone. In fact, go play Monopoly. All the pieces in the game are included right out of the box.

Swing and a miss, nicely done. I spent the bulk of my post agreeing with the notion that the current supply cannot meet the demand. Format staples were never a secret, but it isn't hard to find a Commander player who would rather be playing with real duals, all the mana-rock junk, and so on.

My beef is with the implicit notion that it's somehow motivated by the same things that inspire people to apply for government assistance. They are literally unrelated and if at any point a person finds themselves applying for that kind of assistance, maybe it is only then that one can truly understand. I can recall people saying "I don't care if the value of my collection plummets as long as more people are playing my format", but I don't recall anyone demanding fucking handouts. No no no, I take issue with the implication that it's somehow related to someone's expectations of how the government is supposed to be mandating their welfare. That's oblique and tangential and unrelated. Every time a law passes my grandma disagrees with, she blames it on Mexicans somehow. Ain't got nothing to do with nothing.

[nedleeds]

It's the notion of entitlement. I would also love to race F1 cars, and have a fleet of deep sea fishing vehicles -- I don't spend all day bitching about the barrier to entry.

The incessant whining over market prices for this game, on multiple threads/boards/fourms reeks of entitlement - that you are somehow entitled to play sanctioned magic and every format at some cost you deem 'fair'. Assuming the government will provide you with food for you and the children you've produced, or with healthcare despite your own poor choices is a stretch but it's the same concept. People complaining that they deserve something at a price they set.

There are tons of other options for your strategy game fix that are way way more affordable; the various living card games; a deck of cards ... MWS ... or a pile of basic lands with all the magic cards you could hope to own sharpied on for you and your poor friends amusement. Nobody is going to kick the door in and arrest you for printing color proxies either.

[TsumiBand]

It's the notion of entitlement. I would also love to race F1 cars, and have a fleet of deep sea fishing vehicles -- I don't spend all day bitching about the barrier to entry.

The incessant whining over market prices for this game, on multiple threads/boards/fourms reeks of entitlement - that you are somehow entitled to play sanctioned magic and every format at some cost you deem 'fair'. Assuming the government will provide you with food for you and the children you've produced, or with healthcare despite your own poor choices is a stretch but it's the same concept. People complaining that they deserve something at a price they set.

There are tons of other options for your strategy game fix that are way way more affordable; the various living card games; a deck of cards ... MWS ... or a pile of basic lands with all the magic cards you could hope to own sharpied on for you and your poor friends amusement. Nobody is going to kick the door in and arrest you for printing color proxies either.

Oh sure I mean, I don't fuss about not owning a System76 computer or a real Les Paul. Well okay I kind of piss and moan about not owning a Les Paul, but I'm not for serious expecting someone to pity me and pony up the cash for one.

The problem is, is it really fair to compare the game of Magic to traditional card games? We can sit back and make the Poker/Monopoly/Chess comparisons all day - I do it too, especially Chess. But maybe that's wrong. Maybe it is more like, say, golf? I'm not a golfer. But I know there are shitty clubs and then there are more betterer clubs, and while I don't think that equipment alone is the difference between a good golfer and a poor one, I'm sure it doesn't hurt. So yeah you can buy a pack of Hoyle cards and play hundreds of games, but it may not be as suitable an analogy despite its wide application.

At any rate, I don't think it does the discussion any good to tie it back to "Obama Masters Edition" or anything like that. It confuses the metaphor, at the very least.

[nedleeds]

or i could have just been trolling by dropping the O bomb ...

[Lord Seth]

It's the notion of entitlement. I would also love to race F1 cars, and have a fleet of deep sea fishing vehicles -- I don't spend all day bitching about the barrier to entry.
ITT: Wanting a company to make a product you are interested in buying from them is entitled.

[Koby]

ITT: Wanting a company to make a product you are interested in buying from them is entitled.

Hate to nitpick, but Goyf isn't sold by Wizards. Packs of Modern Masters are (well, their authorized retailers which is a proxy of WotC). Being irrationally upset that Goyf is a $100 card is pissing into the wind. That the card is such an efficient design that it is used in all three Eternal formats is the reason for high demand regardless of supply. If there's one thing that we can surmise is that Eternal is very popular and could easily grow larger than it currently exists today. As a result, it would require flooding the market with excess copies of Goyf in order to make significant strides in lowering its Market value.

WotC has stated numerous times it is not in the secondary market of its retail products. Thus, there is not much they can do to alleviate this without completely crashing that sector of the singles market. Alternatively, they could Power Creep the shit out of future cards to make Goyf not relevant. *cough*Scavenging Ooze*coughcough*

[apple713]

Hate to nitpick, but Goyf isn't sold by Wizards. Packs of Modern Masters are (well, their authorized retailers which is a proxy of WotC). Being irrationally upset that Goyf is a $100 card is pissing into the wind. That the card is such an efficient design that it is used in all three Eternal formats is the reason for high demand regardless of supply. If there's one thing that we can surmise is that Eternal is very popular and could easily grow larger than it currently exists today. As a result, it would require flooding the market with excess copies of Goyf in order to make significant strides in lowering its Market value.

WotC has stated numerous times it is not in the secondary market of its retail products. Thus, there is not much they can do to alleviate this without completely crashing that sector of the singles market. Alternatively, they could Power Creep the shit out of future cards to make Goyf not relevant. *cough*Scavenging Ooze*coughcough*

ive thought about the powercreep option before. The issue is that you end up with cards like jtms.... and RUIN standard. Now, if there was a way for them to make really powerful cards not legal in standard, and release them for legacy only that would be great. I guess thats what the commander series is for.

Even if wizards gave 4 copies of scaveging ooze to every person that played magic i dont think the price of goyf would drop, nor would people stop playing it as much. They'll stop playing it when they print something better than goyf but thats about it.

Scavageing ooze isnt the powercreep anyone is looking for. Green became one of the least popular colors when survival got banned imo. Its at the bottom with red. God i hate my taigas so much.

[Finn]

Don't hate on your Taigas. Nonblue duals are a bargain right now. Get them.

Also, I don't see how anyone can fault new players for wanting cheaper cards. The price for entry is so out of control right now that lots of players are certainly unable to participate. I mean honestly, how many high school and college kids can throw $1000 at a game as a downpayment? Try to imagine convincing your dad it is a good investment.

[from Cairo]

ive thought about the powercreep option before. The issue is that you end up with cards like jtms.... and RUIN standard. Now, if there was a way for them to make really powerful cards not legal in standard, and release them for legacy only that would be great. I guess thats what the commander series is for.

But Standard 'fixes' itself yearly, by rotation. And when cards are deemed too format warping Wizards has shown willingness to lower the axe.

Powercreep is clearly something that Wizards is utilizing in Standard legal sets, just looking at the Creatures that have been printed since Worldwake that see play in "Decks To Beat": Deathrite Shaman, Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, Emrakul the Aeon's Torn, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Geist of Saint Traft, Griselbrand - each of these have displaced previous alternatives or created archetypes that obsolete previous strategies. Additionally, cards that have changed Eternal formats greatly don't necessarily carry the same power level in Standard. The Expert level sets of the past few years have delivered some really interesting offerings to Legacy, I see no reason why Wizards would change this pattern.

[FieryBalrog]

Don't hate on your Taigas. Nonblue duals are a bargain right now. Get them.

Also, I don't see how anyone can fault new players for wanting cheaper cards. The price for entry is so out of control right now that lots of players are certainly unable to participate. I mean honestly, how many high school and college kids can throw $1000 at a game as a downpayment? Try to imagine convincing your dad it is a good investment.

Yup. I and many people on these boards can afford to spend $400 on Magic every month. The new players though, because they are largely the younger population of kids, teenagers and college kids, can't. That means you drive out the very new blood that will keep the game actually thriving. I often trade legacy staples for casual cards at the local university gaming club, partly because I don't care about paper legacy anymore and partly because it feels good to get some supply out there to players who will really appreciate having a Force of Will or a Jace TMS.

[Megadeus]

I mean sure you cant just up and drop 1000 bucks, but you dont have to start out playing BUG walkers. I traded and spent money a bit at a time. I started with Pox, then traded into Nic Fit (while buying Bayous which were my first duals), then traded into UB Tezzeret (Turning Duals into UB fetches), then traded into UW Stoneblade (turning UB fetches into strands and buying a tundra or two), then built TES (buying a couple of USeas), and now Im playing 4 color hoogland loam. I went from budget pox to what I am playing now. Sure I have spent a decent amount of money, but it was over a year. I got to play decks that could win money in my local tournaments, and at the same time, learn the format and uograde to better more consistent decks. I was just a standard player who could barely afford owning the top decks in the format, and now I get to play legacy and have a hell of a lot more fun. All it took was patience and a willingness to buy some expensive cards, knowing that they were good investments.

[danyul]

http://sales.starcitygames.com/search.php?substring=Tarmogoyf&t_all=All&start_date=2010-01-29&end_date=2012-04-22&order_1=finish&limit=25&action=Show%2BDecks&card_qty

Goyf @ 150 on SCG. WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?

[Koby]

http://sales.starcitygames.com/search.php?substring=Tarmogoyf&t_all=All&start_date=2010-01-29&end_date=2012-04-22&order_1=finish&limit=25&action=Show%2BDecks&card_qty

Goyf @ 150 on SCG. WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?

It means that SCG sells for too damn high.

[Barook]

It means that SCG sells for too damn high.
This. Although they do set prices more or less.

If the price of Goyf actually increases, then it's because the price was hold back due to the MM reprint. Due to mythic rarity, the demand isn't met and the price rises again.

[Asthereal]

Modern Masters:
a. has a pretty limited print run.
b. is more expensive per booster than other sets.

SCG have figured out that the release of Modern Masters won't influence prices much.
They can still just ask whatever price they deem fit. And then ask a little more.

Just buy on eBay. :wink:

[Mewens]

To be fair, Modern Masters lowered the price point for entry ... for EDH. By a good chunk, too; a lot of the MM EDH playables are 20% off their og counterparts.

Many of the Legacy bits seemed to have stabilized at their old prices (and the originals seem to have gone up to match, natch).

[UnsungHero]

http://sales.starcitygames.com/search.php?substring=Dark+Confidant&t_all=All&start_date=2010-01-29&end_date=2012-04-22&order_1=finish&limit=25&action=Show%2BDecks&card_qty[1]=1&auto=Y

Forget Goyfs, what the hell is going on with Dark Confidant?
Sold out at $80 on SCG

[Technics]

It's the notion of entitlement. I would also love to race F1 cars, and have a fleet of deep sea fishing vehicles -- I don't spend all day bitching about the barrier to entry.

Actually you must not follow F1. EVERYONE in F1 bitches about it costing too much, and the rules are changed every year to KEEP COST DOWN to make the barrier of entry less so teams other than Ferrari and McClaren can race/compete.

When Honda and Toyota can't afford to race in F1, thats saying something.


Keeping entry barrier is nessassary for any game/sport that requires new players. Otherwise the game/sport dies...

[mini1337s]

I am sad. I traded a NM Goyf for a NM Tundra and thought I made off like a bandit. Wizard's has printed more Goyfs than ever, and now I'm in the hole :S
Boy oh boy, these additional 450 Goyfs better make a difference!

[Dzra]

It's the notion of entitlement. I would also love to race F1 cars, and have a fleet of deep sea fishing vehicles -- I don't spend all day bitching about the barrier to entry.

As a player who loves Legacy, I love to play Legacy. If no one can afford to build a Legacy deck then I can't play Legacy. This might not be an issue for some of the bigger MTG communities that can sport decent sized tournaments full of skilled players, but for the rest of us, I'd rather the barrier to entry be even what it was 2 or 3 years ago. I would rather have my LGS's weekly Legacy events be 30-50+ players with tier 1 decks rather than the 8-12 we get (a third to half of which are on the janky side of things).

As a player who loves Legacy, I have a big ass Legacy collection, most of which is foiled. I'm not looking to see that take a massive tank in value, but then again, if I don't get to play some good Legacy then what am I collecting all this cardboard for? There are solutions out there. There's middle ground out there. Print Tarmogoyfs and Jaces with hideously ugly art or thick nasty foils (aka FTV), I don't care.

Lowering the barrier of entry doesn't have to mean you fist everyone who's already bought in. WotC is rightly afraid to make another Chronicles mistake, but that can be avoided with a little creative designing on their part and, of course, math.

[Zombie]

You also don't have to do the printing all at once. Just consistently reprint something, and it's value will start to trend downwards without completely destroying everything overnight.

Also, with Legacy stuff, real availability can be a problem. There's all of one Bayou for sale in the usual sources in my country, for example, and it's a 500 eur Beta one. Accessibility, yay.

Still, I don't give a **** if my collection's value drops. Boo hoo. If the inane prices drive people away from the format I enjoy playing the most, that's a net loss for me, far more so than some monetary number attached to cards I bought to play in the first place.

[Justin]

Well, Goyf was going for $130 on SCG when Modern Masters came out, and it's going for $150 right now. So it didn't drop, but instead went up. They probably should have printed more MM product. Maybe they'll bring Modern Masters back down the road with a bigger print run.

[HammafistRoob]

How hilarious would it be if Goyf got banned soon in Modern?

[Dan Turner]

How hilarious would it be if Goyf got banned soon in Modern?

i would laugh like hell, I would most likely laugh so hard I would simultaneously shit and piss myself.