Should Black Vise be Unbanned?

[jtos84]

We were discussing banned cards in legacy, so I went through the list, and I saw that Black Vise is banned. I did not think it was banned, and I thought it was legal, but just not good enough to see play. I started thinking of why it could be banned, and I came up with no reasonable answers in today's metagame. I could see how it may have been banned for the lack of quick answers in the past, but at least 50 percent of the decks in the meta run force of will, and we have spell pierce, daze, engineered explosives to name a few commonly played answers.

This card could not be better than show and tell or grislebrand. The only decks that hold on to enough cards for it to matter are the decks that run the answers. There is discard, counters, and now even abrupt decay. Noone was able to come up witha solid answer as to how black vise would become broken in legacy. The only decks that would see improvement would probably be monored burn, or affinity. Neither of those decks are close to dominent, and they would probably just become somewhat better if at all. Burn is dealt with in so many ways that black vise would probably just make the game more interesting, and the deck more fun to play. If anything I think black vise would make the format more fun to play, may even encourage more people to play it, and would more than likely never be dominent.

If anyone has reasonable feedback I would be interested in hearing it. Please don't reply with something like black vise is just too good, but try to give solid answers that we can discuss. I think if something is not dominent or broken then it should not be banned.

[Esper3k]

Yeah Black Vise is one of those cards that I think probably is safe to unban. I mean c'mon Land Tax, Entomb, and Metalworker all made it off the list before it!

The most busted thing I guess I could think of doing with Black Vise is T1, Ritual, Black Vise x 3 on the play? Insane nut hand that doesn't even kill you on T1?

[ilazul]

It pretty much shuts down control decks if played 1st turn.

We tried a black vise deck a couple months ago just to see, it was pretty much a mana denial + bounce & draw (simlar to RUG's starting turns honestly, except vise instead of mongoose or delver) and it was pretty one sided.

It's not as powerful as people are saying though. It pretty much gets 6-8 damage against a deck without a turn 1 critter, and for 1 colorless.

If you can lock them out by bouncing/wasting lands and just flood hands, it can eat a control deck (while still preying on decks that RUG delver pretty much preys on).

Honestly, I'd like to see it get a trial month. But I understand its ban.

[jtos84]

That type of damage happens over a few turns. There is more of a possibility of the player being able to play enough cards to barely take any damage. Qasali Pridemage is another answer. Legacy is the type of format that should promote something like this. The game you describe relies on black vise being in the opening hand. That is not something that is anywhere near a consistent strategy. Thanks for the good example. We need every worse case scenerio to be presented.

[ilazul]

and honestly, even as a control player, I'd love to see it get a trial month or two.

It might bring some decent balance to all the blue decks running around (which i sure as hell play).

And that worst case scenario I brought up happens as much as RUG land screwing someone, since it ended up using a stifle + wasteland strategy.

Honestly, it ended up being as good as aether vial in my opinion. If you get it opening hand, you should be good. Otherwise, it's too little, too late.

Getting multiples in the opening hand is a free game against some decks though. It's still not impossible to play around.

[Mr. Safety]

Just some rambling thoughts...

Black Vise loses a lot of steam after the first few turns of the game. Decks like Rock/Junk (already doing well) would be able to weather the mana-denial and then push through an Abrupt Decay and carry on as usual...just on turn 4 instead of jumping out the gate turn 1. Vise works by keeping opponents from playing cards. Most decks in legacy can play at least part of their deck on only one land, so no guarantee that mana-denial will always be a safe bet.
The difference I think is Jace...if you can get a turn 1 Vise, disrupt and Waste opponent's out, and then land Jace you're going to have a really strong game. Blue is the natural color addition for Stifle, Force, and Spell Pierce. This means combo will be contained, for the most part. It's the aggro decks that would really force Black Vise into being 'fair.' Slighh/Burn, Zoo, and RUG can all operate on 2 lands for the whole game, and can ride a single threat that lands (Delver, Nacatl or basic Mountains and a bunch of Bolts.)

I think it would be good...but not too good. I'd be interested to see what it could do. I don't see a lot of Stifles being slung lately. If Stifle were more prominant, it would make Vise better. *shrug* Just speculation, and maybe Vise would make Stifle better.

[jtos84]

The amount of blue being in the metagame was another consideration. There has been so much blue in the metagame for so long. I don't even see black vise being the answer for this, but it could promote new strategies. I think black vise could show up in top 8's. That is also a huge maybe. Before I wrote this I just considered black vise a bad card that used to see play. I think it could be fun though. I do think burn could use something like this.

[Koby]

Yes it should.
That way Control will be forced to play Ivory Towers.

/sarcasm was lost in translation/

[jtos84]

Yes it should.
That way Control will be forced to play Ivory Towers.

There are so many answers already being played I don't think any deck will be forced to play anything. I doubt they would even change a deck slot for a card like black vise when they can answer it in so many other ways. Take helm combo for example. They can just enligtened tutor for engineered explosives.

[Asthereal]

I'm sure its safe to unban.
But seriously, who would really LIKE to play against Black Vise?
We are all fed up with burn decks as it is. Let's not make it worse.

[jtos84]

I don't how anyone can be fed up with burn. The burn player has to feel twice as bad. Who likes to play against pox? I doubt you would see many players using black vise in a tournament. Not enough to ever really feel any impact, or go home saying curse that black vise.

[Shawon]

Black Vise will have to wait its turn. Earthcraft and Mind Twist are in the front of the line.

Seriously though, Black Vise is probably safe to unban, but it's still on the list probably because it's very annoying in general and I think the DCI is doing the Legacy community a favor by NOT giving players more reasons to give up on Legacy. Considering that people are still letting RUG win SCGs despite bitching and bitching and bitching about Brainstorm, I think this weekend's SCG finals of RUG vs RUG is enough visual agony for anyone with common sense to realize that unbanning Black Vise isn't what the format needs right now.

[jtos84]

I don't know why anyone cares about brainstorm or rug. Black is underplayed (discard to be specific), so if the metagame were beig played in normal proportions then brainstorm isn't the beast you think it is. I don't think top or brainstorm are worth any complaints. Its more about people not playing good answers to powerful strategies that are currently seeing play. Two rugs in the top 8 is nothing to be concerned with. I think a month ago they were wondering where rug even went because it dissappeared from top 8's. I don't think theres any way mind twist should ever be unbanned in legacy. I think that would be the cause of a lot of people quitting. I was looking at earthcraft earlier, and I'm not sure what the possible abuses would be with that card. I know there are a lot of ramping strategies in the metagame. You shoulld start a thread on Earthcraft. If I were to pick another card I would ask why balance is banned, but not in this thread.

[menace13]

Black Vise will have to wait its turn. Earthcraft and Mind Twist are in the front of the line.

Seriously though, Black Vise is probably safe to unban, but it's still on the list probably because it's very annoying in general and I think the DCI is doing the Legacy community a favor by NOT giving players more reasons to give up on Legacy. Considering that people are still letting RUG win SCGs despite bitching and bitching and bitching about Brainstorm, I think this weekend's SCG finals of RUG vs RUG is enough visual agony for anyone with common sense to realize that unbanning Black Vise isn't what the format needs right now.

No way, what needs to be done is unbanning better blue spells, like Mystical Tutor. And If that proves to be bad then unban Misstep. And If that isn't enough, unban Survival.

There format fixed.

You're welcome.

Also, Jtos, think Koby meant that it probably wouldn't change things too much if at all.

[jtos84]

No way, what needs to be done is unbanning better blue spells, like Mystical Tutor. And If that proves to be bad then unban Misstep. And If that isn't enough, unban Survival.

There format fixed.

You're welcome.

Also, Jtos, think Koby meant that it probably wouldn't change things too much if at all.

I think mystical tutor would be the reason show and tell would get banned. I don't personally think show and tell is worthy of the ban hammer though. Mystical tutor would probably break the format, and I know mistept would. Yea I don't think black vise would change things much at all. I don't think cards should be in a line up for being unbanned. There are reasons aside from power level why they get banned. Black Vice is a far cry from mindtwist.

[Shawon]

No way, what needs to be done is unbanning better blue spells, like Mystical Tutor. And If that proves to be bad then unban Misstep. And If that isn't enough, unban Survival.

There format fixed.

You're welcome.

[/sarcasm]

You're welcome.

[Hanni]

The reason why Black Vise is strong, is because it's a 1 drop that does continuous damage without relying on the red zone, and without the vulnerability to Swords to Plowshares. Against most decks, it's going to lose value after the early game. But compare this to say, Steppe Lynx or Goblin Guide. Both of those creatures tend to be pretty shitty after the first few turns, but are pretty amazing at being extremely aggressive during the early game. Black Vise is in a similar boat, doing great damage for the cost investment when dropped early, but becoming worse as the game progresses.

Against decks that empty their hand fairly quickly, or in other words proactive strategies, Vise is fairly weak. Against decks that tend to hold onto cards, or in other words reactive strategies, Vise is a fairly strong. Most blue decks tend to keep a fairly sizable grip for at least the first 3-4 turns of the game. Inserted into an aggressive deck, Black Vise has the potential to be crazy stupid powerful against a blue dominated metagame. Against linear decks that spam stuff onto the table, it's going to range from fair to awful. The Legacy metagame has pretty consistently been dominated by blue strategies since pretty much ever, so I definitely see Black Vise having the potential to seriously shake up the format. Is it going to be harmful enough to the format to warrant staying on the banned list? Probably not. I could see this coming off the banned list, but I also see it causing a big format shift when/if it does.

For example, inserting Black Vise into a Sligh deck, such as the R/U/w Blue Sligh list in my signature, would be a huge upgrade. It's going to do damage to opponent's as though it had haste, and it's most likely pushing through damage more consistently than say a Dryad Militant or Kird Ape or Phantasmal Bear or whatever. Except, instead of petering off against blue decks by virtue of being out-sized or hit with Terminus or something, it's going to continue to do damage. Even against non-blue decks, I don't see it being much worse in the midgame than a topdecked Steppe Lynx or whatever (since both are pretty bad).

The difference here is that the format has tons of 1cc spot removal options for creatures, but few to no 1cc spot removal options for artifacts (although we did just get Abrupt Decay, so the impact of Black Vise may be lessened). The damage being direct vs done through the red zone also means that it cannot get chumped by early walls like Tarmogoyf.

Blue Sligh already has Delver, Lynx, and Guide as huge damage producers (for their cost to damage ratio), and Black Vise would up that count to a very consistent 16. I could definitely see Blue Sligh pushing into Tier 1 status with Black Vise, and I could also see Burn decks getting a huge boost from the card as well. Whether or not Black Vise would make a splash into mana denial strategies or some niche strategies that try to use bounce spells or otherwise keep an opponent's hand full... I'm not sure.

tl;dr Good card, seems safe to unban, but would definitely shake up the format.

EDIT: Oh, and to the people saying silly things like being able to drop a Qasali or EE to deal with it... if it's already done 4-6 damage to you before you blow it up, it's already done its job. Spending 3 mana to blow up a 1cc artifact is a pretty bad trade from a tempo perspective.

[lavafrogg]

I disagree with its unbanning. It is not a fun card to play against and would be the easiest win con a prison deck has ever played, any combination of prison effects and black vises early in the game would be dumb. Let alone all of the stifle/wasteland decks that would slide 4 into the mix to get some early/consistent damage in.

The card would kill control decks and speed the format up to beyond what wizards deems acceptable.

[jtos84]

I disagree with its unbanning. It is not a fun card to play against and would be the easiest win con a prison deck has ever played, any combination of prison effects and black vises early in the game would be dumb. Let alone all of the stifle/wasteland decks that would slide 4 into the mix to get some early/consistent damage in.

The card would kill control decks and speed the format up to beyond what wizards deems acceptable.

Prison decks arn't dominent, and I doubt they would become dominent with black vise. There are just to many answeres available.

[(nameless one)]

Prison decks arn't dominent, and I doubt they would become dominent with black vise. There are just to many answeres available.

Prison decks aren't dominant because they do not have a reliable win condition.

As for blue decks, the real "blue culprit" deck aren't the control decks. It's U/x tempo decks. Black Vise does nothing against those decks.

You are better of getting Earthcraft unbanned. Hell, I might even go for Frantic Search.

[jtos84]

After playing various games I think that this card is so bad that it does not matter if it is left unbanned.

[menace13]

You're welcome.

And that is how you would thank the man that would fix your format? Pfft, fine, die to delvers and stifles for another 18 months, peasants.

[Vacrix]

Black Vise won't completely wreck the format but it will be more relevant than some of the other safer cards that are unban-worthy. Its obviously best against the control decks that like to sit on lots of cards in hand but I wonder if that would be it would balance the format more given the power and presence of Brainstorm. Still, I think that the Tempo decks (RUG mostly) are strongest right now and they can sit comfortably out or barely in Vise range anyway. So really all it would probably do would be a force against the slower control decks which I think are good to have in the format. A purely Tempo dominated metagame is lame and control deck diversity makes the format more fun.

[jtos84]

I don't know if it would even do anything noteworthy against control. What could this card really be paired with. It could not really be used with discard because that works against the strategy. It didnt do anything worthwhile in burn. My only guess from what I have seen here would be in some type of stax deck.

[Jenni]

I would absolutely love to have it unbanned, I have so many ideas for prison decks that could use it as a better win condition than that damned owl...
That said, not many people seem to share my love for prison decks, and since vise is probably the best possible prison deck win-con, I can understand why it remains banned.

[jtos84]

It's been a while since I've seen this card in play, but all I remember is that it was no fun for anybody.

[jtos84]

It's been a while since I've seen this card in play, but all I remember is that it was no fun for anybody.

I made a deck using lock components. This deck is definitly fun for the pilot. I'll post the list, so you guys can give feedback on whether this is broken or not. I beat show and tell as the first match played. I apologize for the partil list above. My hand brushed against some keys and it was posted accidentally.

Artifacts
4 - black vice
4 - tanglewire
3 - winter orb

Blue Spells
3 - stand still
4 - spell peirce
4 - brainstorm
4 - stasis

White Spells
3 - enlightened tutor
4 - oblivion ring
3 - armaggedon

Lands
4 - mishra's factory
4 - wasteland
4 - flooded strand
2 - academy ruins
4 - tundra
4 - island
2 - plains

Sideboard
4 - leyline of sancity
2 - engineered explosives
3 - tormod's crypt
3 - surgical extraction
3 - angel of despair

[jtos84]

[QUOTE='Nilla Pac;684478]You seem to be reinforcing my opinion.[/QUOTE

Theres no way that could become dominent. Daze, spell pierce, and all the other names wreck it.

[Valtrix]

I'd like it unbanned, if only because then I might see Remand played...

[DrJones]

The only reason Black Vise is banned is because it has no bound. If you play, let's say, Upheaval and put 15 cards in your opponent's hand, black vise will do 11 damage on his/her next turn. I've automatically won games using just Black Vise and Prosperity.

[Shawon]

The only reason Black Vise is banned is because it has no bound. If you play, let's say, Upheaval and put 15 cards in your opponent's hand, black vise will do 11 damage on his/her next turn. I've automatically won games using just Black Vise and Prosperity.

This is what's keeping Upheaval from seeing Tier 1 play. Listen to this man.

[alderon666]

High variance card. Awesome on turn 1, blank from turn 4 and on.
Could be a decent side against "critical-amount-of-cards" combo decks like storm or High Tide. But even then, storm can just play it's lands + artifacts and High Tide only cares if it's life total is going below 1.

[Shawon]

I don't know why anyone cares about brainstorm or rug. Black is underplayed (discard to be specific), so if the metagame were beig played in normal proportions then brainstorm isn't the beast you think it is. I don't think top or brainstorm are worth any complaints. Its more about people not playing good answers to powerful strategies that are currently seeing play. Two rugs in the top 8 is nothing to be concerned with. I think a month ago they were wondering where rug even went because it dissappeared from top 8's. I don't think theres any way mind twist should ever be unbanned in legacy. I think that would be the cause of a lot of people quitting. I was looking at earthcraft earlier, and I'm not sure what the possible abuses would be with that card. I know there are a lot of ramping strategies in the metagame. You shoulld start a thread on Earthcraft. If I were to pick another card I would ask why balance is banned, but not in this thread.

Regardless of your viewpoint on Brainstorm, no one is bringing up Brainstorm on the chopping block arbitrarily. Brainstorm is an universally accepted 'good card' that some view has reached a level to where it is considered 'too good.' It has nothing to do with black being underplayed. Black isn't underplayed, it's underwhelming. If anything, Cabal Therapy is being underplayed because it's actually the best discard spell Black has to offer other than Mind Twist yet people continue to forego intuition in favor of safe discard.

Speaking of which, I don't think Mind Twist would be too dangerous in a vacuum, because like I said, discard is pretty underwhelming in general. It would be pretty brutal against non-blue control, but against combo, it's too slow to be much better than Hymn to Tourach. Ramp decks could take advantage of Mind Twist, but it's not going to make them suck much less, same with brainless mono-black decks that intend on trying to Ritual into Mind Twist. I can see Turbo Eldrazi using Mind Twist, but only as a sideboard option against blue decks, so that could be one dangerous application considering blue decks (and combo) are what's keeping TurboDrazi decks from being Tier 1. Another potentially dangerous application would be Mind Twist in blue decks. *shudder* I'm not endorsing Mind Twist to be unbanned right now, though. All I'm saying that we ought to consider Earthcraft and Mind Twist first before unbanning Black Vise.

I have posted in the Enchantress thread about Earthcraft. It's pretty good in Enchantress, and would definitely make the deck Tier 1, but Enchantress would still be beatable. I don't think Earthcraft would make Elves less beatable.

[Shawn]

[Theres no way that could become dominent. Daze, spell pierce, and all the other names wreck it.

Not if the you're on the draw.

[joemauer]

The only reason Black Vise is banned is because it has no bound. If you play, let's say, Upheaval and put 15 cards in your opponent's hand, black vise will do 11 damage on his/her next turn. I've automatically won games using just Black Vise and Prosperity.

So are you for or against unbanning Black Vise?

Sounds like playing cards like Prosperity and Upheaval would be fun. I miss those cards. I could also dust off my Stasi(or is it Stasises?).

This sounds like the best argument for unbanning the Vise.

[(nameless one)]

Maybe Mikokoro, Center of the Sea will see play if Black Vise gets unbanned.

[dunk]

I like menance idea. But then, I like degeneracy and playing with broken stuff. Sadly I started too late and missed some of it - but man BGW Survival was the best deck I've ever played! And it didn't even needed brainstorm or blue at all ;)

Concerning a possible Vise unban: I was against it before UW control was a real deck again, so my opinion doesn't change. That card would just destroy UW. And without UW, goblins would go as well. Doesn't sound that healthy if you ask me.
Also, before pondering over a staxx build I'd just throw it into rug and threat it as a mongoose that can't block but is thresholded from the beginning. A goose that doesn't die to terminus...

[Richard Cheese]

i'd like it unbanned, if only because then i might see arcane denial played...

ftfy

[Shawon]

Also, before pondering over a staxx build I'd just throw it into rug and threat it as a mongoose that can't block but is thresholded from the beginning. A goose that doesn't die to terminus...

Exactly. Why do people want this or feel we need this in the format? If people could come up with the idea that a 3/2 flier would be good in RUG Tempo, then why wouldn't they consider Black Vise?

[dontbiteitholmes]

Said it before and I'll say it again. If Black Vice is unbanned I'm playing Stasis whether it's viable or not, so careful what you wish for.

[Koby]

Said it before and I'll say it again. If Black Vice is unbanned I'm playing Stasis whether it's viable or not, so careful what you wish for.

Stasis? I'd play Prosperity before I'd touch Stasis. Cards in hand? Oh 12? Take 8.

[Gheizen64]

Prison decks aren't dominant because they do not have a reliable win condition.

As for blue decks, the real "blue culprit" deck aren't the control decks. It's U/x tempo decks. Black Vise does nothing against those decks.

You are better of getting Earthcraft unbanned. Hell, I might even go for Frantic Search.

Really? Prison isn't playable for the simple fact that reusable black lotus for artifact isn't legal in this format. Legacy has nowhere enough power level to make prison work, not to say it wouldn't even be as good as it is in vintage as your lock pieces don't block mana sources (moxen).

[Morte]

Stasis? I'd play Prosperity before I'd touch Stasis. Cards in hand? Oh 12? Take 8.

I tried Black Vise + Prosperity many years ago (1997?) I can't forget the last time I played the deck.

My turn, a lot of mana from a Mana Drain, Prosperity for 10, pass with 3 Black Vises in play.

Opponent's upkeep. "You just let me draw 3 Disenchants"


Lesson: never make your opponent draw extra cards, unless you're killing him now. I'd like to see your Prosperity against a Legacy combo deck...

Touch Stasis before :smile:

[Koby]

Good thing the rules have changed since 1997 -- Black Vise will trigger regardless :D

[Octopusman]

I love stasis as well and would prefer to not run black for sleeper agent which was my win con last time I played.

The biggest problem with stasis, imo, is that root maze doesn't stop creatures and kismet/frozen aether cost too much. Orb of dreams is too symmetrical.

I am for an unban.

[jtos84]

Good thing the rules have changed since 1997 -- Black Vise will trigger regardless :D

It looks like so far some people are most of afraid of rug delver using black vise. That actually sounds like a bad Idea, and I really don't think it would improve delver. The deck can't really afford to cut creatures, and any other card it uses can't really be cut for it. On top of that black vise is only going to matter somewhat in a deck with lock pieces. If there is nothing stopping your opponent from playing cards then they will obviously just play them in an attempt to win the game.

For the argument about it being too good on the play I would just say that is a reason force of will is good. I really doubt I would waste a force of will on a black vise though. Black vise is normally the lesser evil in the decks that run it. It might be a kill condition, but it takes quite a lot of uninterupted lock pieces to win with black vice.

Someone else mentioned making everyone draw tons of cards. That would probably be the best way to make your opponent win the game. They will just combo off or overwhelm you. I know this discussion cannot be taken as the complete truth unless the playtesting is done to back it up. I am going to see if if I can get some players to play tier decks aainst the best black vise lock build I can think of today, and I will post what happens.

Legacy seems too efficient to be beaten out by a card like black vise. This card or deck is by no means efficient. You will never consisitently play it on turn one, and then actully see it hit the board.

Oh, and one more thing. I would not place cards to be considered for unbanning in any order. They are not the same card, and they will all interact differently with current metagames, or potential future ones.

[Koby]

The card is fine in regards to the power level of Legacy.
However, from a "fun" aspect, Black Vise creates scenarios in which people perceive as negative. For this reason alone its kept on the ban list. Mind Twist might very well be on here too.

[jtos84]

The card is fine in regards to the power level of Legacy.
However, from a "fun" aspect, Black Vise creates scenarios in which people perceive as negative. For this reason alone its kept on the ban list. Mind Twist might very well be on here too.

That is probably the best argument we have had so far. I think I have heard that in the past also. I'm not being sarcastic here, but can you possibly give the potential negative scenerios so they can be evaluated? I would write them down myself, but I am not sure that I have the worst case scenario deck built yet. Academy ruins would probably be in the deck.

As far as the other cards being discussed in this thread its probably fine, but that is not why I made it. If I had some expertise as to why they should be unbanned I would start an individual thread for each one, so that the replies are not all mixed up and hard to find.

I am writing about, and testing with black vise because I used to play lock decks with it a really long time ago. Im guessing at least fifteen to seventeen years ago.

[Jenni]

Said it before and I'll say it again. If Black Vice is unbanned I'm playing Stasis whether it's viable or not, so careful what you wish for.

I already play stasis, I would just be playing a better stasis deck with vise back.

[Hanni]

I don't understand most of the posts in this thread. First of all, Prison decks should be running Iron Maiden or Viseling over Black Vise so that they can drop Chalice@1, and Black Vise doesn't suddenly make cards like Upheaval or Prosperity playable.

Black Vise is powerful because it costs 1 mana. Sligh and Burn are the homes for it, not some bad deck that lets its opponents draw cards.

[jtos84]

I don't understand most of the posts in this thread. First of all, Prison decks should be running Iron Maiden or Viseling over Black Vise so that they can drop Chalice@1, and Black Vise doesn't suddenly make cards like Upheaval or Prosperity playable.

Black Vise is powerful because it costs 1 mana. Sligh and Burn are the homes for it, not some bad deck that lets its opponents draw cards.

We played black vise in burn, and it seemed like the worst card that could be used. I think there are very few burn decks that can be considered competitive beyond the point of random wins. I've been using the list I posted minus the armaggedons and plus swords to plowshares, and its decently competitve. Noone has played against it with delver yet, but the deck certainly is not overwhelming. I doubt it will be in the same deck that uses chalice of the void just because it would make very little sense.

[Michael Keller]

Super-simplified short answer: No.

[jtos84]

Super-simplified short answer: No.

Do you have any supporting comments?

[tsabo_tavoc]

Do you have any supporting comments?

Because manaless Dredge exploits a 7-card hand:laugh:

Black Vise would see play if unbanned. It is a very powerful card against a good number of decks, but its high variance makes it not worth building around. The unban is relatively safe, but as many have mentioned, there are safer unbans in the form of Earthcraft and Mind Twist.

[Gheizen64]

We played black vise in burn, and it seemed like the worst card that could be used. I think there are very few burn decks that can be considered competitive beyond the point of random wins. I've been using the list I posted minus the armaggedons and plus swords to plowshares, and its decently competitve. Noone has played against it with delver yet, but the deck certainly is not overwhelming. I doubt it will be in the same deck that uses chalice of the void just because it would make very little sense.

Yeah vise sucks in burn. Affinity is a better home and even then...

[Freggle]

Black Vice is a fair card. Just like Mental Misstep was. The problem is it's colorless, lets face it, just like Mental Misstep was.

The issue isn't whether the card is unfair. I personally think it is balanced as an ability. The issue is should every single deck have access to the ability?

Black Vice can have a very high damage output in the early game, and is relatively tough to deal with if resolved on the play turn 1. It started getting attention from Wizards around the same time that they started to phase out random discard. It was a part of Wizards conscious effort to make Magic more of a game of skill and less of a game of luck.

So the question really is do you want to play in a format where somewhere just under 40% of the games can start with land-> Vice go?

I feel that would be format warping, and reduce the design space of both deck brewers, and card development (Wizards.) It is likely better on the list.

Alternatively, if they were to reprint the same wording with perhaps a :rg: casting cost I think it would be just fine.

[jtos84]

I think I am starting to agree with it staying banned. All the games I have won required no skill. It will randomly win games, and if anything is printed to help it out I do think it would dominate. On its own it does win about 40 percent of matches none of which require thinking. It probably would warp the format in an unreasonable way because random lock decks would show up and win through sheer numbers more than likely. If there were ever a metagame where a control deck that used this card were good, but not dominent existed that would probably be the time to unban it. The card is fun to play with until you realize your just repetitivly doing the same thing over and over without really using your head.

[clavio]

I played Winter Orb prison for years, even when it was terrible. I don't think that Black Vise is the right win condition for lockdown decks. A turn 20 Iron Maiden seems similar to a turn 20 black vise. Lodestone Golem is a lot better.

But yeah, in other decks black vise would be great. I think the fact that it basically whiffs in some match ups mitigates the fact that it can be unfair in others. I'd love to see it in Legacy.

[Erdvermampfa]

Any card that might lessen Blue's dominance in this format should be automatically unbanned.

[alderon666]

I don't think Black Vise will be any more annoying than Counterbalance. The deal is that it's a threat, a threat that can be dealt by answer cards (Pridemage) or simply plying your cards (maybe in a less than optimal way, "Bolt your face, you are at 17").

Comparing it 3-Sphere/CotV/land destruction which basically lock you out of the game, this looks like a much milder card. And the variance really destroys the card on aggro decks.

[jtos84]

For anyone looking to see this card unbanned I can tell you know is going to consider without playtesting results. I don't exactly have the time or playtesting partners available to do it, and I am sure it is going to take more than on mind to come up with possible builds that run black vise. I am not interested enough to take this on by mysef, and I don't think this anything that could be accomplished in two weeks. The legacy metagame is in a vey decent state right now. If the concern is the amount of brainstorms and blues lengthy format dominence then I think there are other ways to remedy this and satisfy the larger amount of players. Legacy seems to lack good decks that run different creatures. Its always one deck, or various decks running the same creatures. I think that if semi broken creatures are printed (just a phrase) that do not quite mesh with blue strategies then the other colors can be balanced out.

That in itself is not that difficult to accomplish, but it would require people to create a few new cards that have been playtested in advance. This could possibly help block, standard, and modern also. There is so much efficient removal in legacy that you may as well just increase the amount of awesome, or useful creatures in the format.

[Smmenen]

I guess the question is:

Are folks comfortable with:

T1: Black Vise
T2: Black Vise, Black Vise

as a possible sequence?

Or, even just:

T1: Black Vise,
T2: Black Vise, Bolt You

I think Black Vise might make Burn too strong...

Black Vise is like a 1 colorless mana Lightning Bolt that does 5 damage or more to a player's head...

Is that a fair card?

[Wanderlust]

I think Black Vise might make Burn too strong...

Black Vise is like a 1 colorless mana Lightning Bolt that does 5 damage or more to a player's head...

Is that a fair card?

Black Vise is only a 1 mana 5 damage card if everything goes exactly right. Black Vise can also be the most godawful top deck Burn has ever seen. In many (perhaps the majority) of matchups, if you aren't landing Black Vise on turn 1 or 2 on the play and turn 1 on the draw, it is just about as useful as Great Wall. Playing it in Burn increases the deck's theoretical power but diminishes its consistency. It's kind of like an inverse version of Thunderous Wrath: they each do 5 damage for one mana. Thunderous Wrath is the best possible topdeck but is terrible in your opening hand, Black Vise is a terrible topdeck but is awesome in your opening hand. Both are highly conditional.

[jtos84]

The burn example is a good argument. I have thought about that, but didn't think about it actually mattering. I had been to concerned with testing in control builds. I know for one that I am never happy losing to pure luck. Anything that wins randomly is not going to win a lot of support from people who take the tournament seen seriously. When I made this thread I was unaware of the full potential this card had to mess up the tournament seen. It is a very fun casual card, but I think there would be a better time to unban this one.

If there were such a variety of decks in the metagame that were of nearly equal consistency, and there was a build this card could go in that was of nearly the same consistency then it would probably be alright. It is good to figure these issues out, so that everyone knows about why certain cards are banned, and what conditions would be neccessary for them to be unbanned.
When I think about the reason this card was in decks and not the card that just stuck out in your mind was because we were playing with balance. There were decks that used balance, stasis, winter orb, and icy manipulator among other things to completley lock the opponent out of the game.

I don't think there is a power level issue with this card, but I think there also needs to be more legacy cards printed before it is going to be acceptable in the metagame. I do not see this happening anytime soon. Once again, people will have to show testing results to get anything changed. Maybe I'm wrong, and they will just unban it, but on the other hand I am not one the people who plays the decks it would matter for. I am definitley for the unabanning of balance. This will probably never happen, but it is my favorite card I think, and it is very fun. It is probably as unfair as it is fun though.

[godofallu]

It's a garbage card that promotes poor play.

You take damage from it before you even get to start your first turn, and then you have an incentive to play your spells quickly instead of saving them for the right moment/time.

People saying that FOW stops it are fools. Any 1 drop that you have to consistently pray to 2-1 yourself on is overpowered.

[jtos84]

It's a garbage card that promotes poor play.

You take damage from it before you even get to start your first turn, and then you have an incentive to play your spells quickly instead of saving them for the right moment/time.

People saying that FOW stops it are fools. Any 1 drop that you have to consistently pray to 2-1 yourself on is overpowered.

I don't think you could pay me to force of will the first one. I don't think it was designed to promote poor play. The decks that originally used it were very fun for the pilot. It was just the opposite for the opponent though. I think whenever balance was phased out the card lost its use.

[Amon Amarth]

I guess the question is:

Are folks comfortable with:

T1: Black Vise
T2: Black Vise, Black Vise

as a possible sequence?

Or, even just:

T1: Black Vise,
T2: Black Vise, Bolt You

I think Black Vise might make Burn too strong...

Black Vise is like a 1 colorless mana Lightning Bolt that does 5 damage or more to a player's head...

Is that a fair card?

Drawing multiples of a card isn't exactly a scenario I would want to take into account regarding its unbanning. Game states like that already come up in Legacy i.e. 3x hate card against Dredge, Rit, Rit, AdN, etc. Everyone is already aware of how good it is in multiples on turn 1/2. What about turn 5 or 6? It's a blank. A terrible topdeck. This isn't even taking into account how bad it is against some decks. The card is too high variance for a deck like Burn.

[Gheizen64]

I guess the question is:

Are folks comfortable with:

T1: Black Vise
T2: Black Vise, Black Vise

as a possible sequence?

Or, even just:

T1: Black Vise,
T2: Black Vise, Bolt You

I think Black Vise might make Burn too strong...

Black Vise is like a 1 colorless mana Lightning Bolt that does 5 damage or more to a player's head...

Is that a fair card?

Are you drunk? No because you could make a similar argument for Thunderous Wrath (optimal conditions-> 5 damage for R), and both are trash cards for the same reason, consistency.
Goblin guide is a better comparison (amazing average of 6-8 damage T1 on the play), and Goblin guide while still a bad topdeck is nowhere as bad as Vise as it can swing into an empty board, and deal also more damage on average.

Your first sequence of cards is hilarious too. One mulligan and 1 spell on t1 and your amazing play did 3 damage on T3. No mulligan, just a force on 3rd Vise and u got 4 damage in 3 turns. Playing any spell on T1 mean that those vise are essentially lava spikes as you do 9 damage with them.

Look the DTB. Blade control run 2-4 pierce and 3-4 FoW plus 4-5 1-mana discards, not to say a lot of them play MD EE. Omniscience doesn't really care about burn and run FoW for good measure. RUG tempo play FoW, tons of 1-drops and Spell pierce too. Goblin and Maverick can empty their hand out of Vise range super quickly. Dredge i am not even going there, unless you're playing manaless. Reanimator, Merfolk both don't care about Vise as they run discard and/or free countermagic and several 1-drops.
The only deck against which Vise COULD BE a good card in the DTB is blade control because it doesn't run black for proactive disruption, but even then, the deck play the full FoW department and usually 3-4 pierces too, with 4 SDT as a possible 1-drop too. Not to say Vise is EXTREMELY easy to play around, as you basically won't have to factor for it every single game you're on the play (vise on the draw = 3 dam in the perfect situation) and is extremely easy to hate out (EE is an already good sideboard card that is extremely good against Vise too).

[lordofthepit]

I don't believe that Black Vise would be a good card in Legacy today, so yes, unban it. I certainly wouldn't play it in any existing deck, nor do I think it's powerful or consistent enough to warrant building a strategy around it (prison doesn't count).

[zendo]

Any card that might lessen Blue's dominance in this format should be automatically unbanned.

Has anything ever been printed that blue was not able to incorporate for its own ends?

[jtos84]

Has anything ever been printed that blue was not able to incorporate for its own ends?

I think about this every now and then. I wonder why blue always lacks a decent creature pool, but is always full of game manipulating cards. Granted it is fun to use the cards; however it leaves the color using other colors for reliable creatures. When I think of this I come to the complicated issue of the equality of colors. If every color were of equal power or use then what would be the purpose of colors aside from the possibility of creating some type of advantaqe over another. Otherwise there would be no colors, and a more simplistic approach to deck design. It would seem almost ludicrous to use one color and blue creatures.

With that information you will look directly to the blue spells that see so much play. Obviously there are counterspells, but then you have brainstorm and ponder. You can view them as unfair because they can search deck for the needed card, but is this what is really making blue so succesful? If you think about it these two blue spells will nearly guarentee that the deck does not experience a mana shortage. Although the argument of I don't search for lands with these cards will come up, but I'm not going to buy that.

If the possibility even exisits to ensure the deck has mana then it already has an advantage. Noone is going to counter brainstorm or ponder. Take the mana excel, ramp, or whatever it is called from other decks. It is normally a creature or an artifact. Every color has a way to eliminate the extra mana source if it is not a spell searching for it. Green, black, white, red, can not stop brainstorm from fetching land normally. So this makes me think the so called broken card is just getting by over time through slight advantages like this. Although it can search for the right card to win games this is not much different than tutoring for a card, or just playing more removal or combo pieces. The other slight advantage is countermagic. You might call it huge, but I really do not think countermagic is what makes blue so dominent.

I presented this argument to some players who usually play with blue and they did not agree. You can take another scenerio into consideration. What if there were no brainstorm? Would blue still enjoy the same success? If so why, and if not why? Is there a way to print cards in other colors that bring tournament results among colors to some type of equality?

[hi-val]

Black Vise would give Stasis decks a cheap and efficient way to win. I don't know that we want to promote any of this Stasis business.

[nedleeds]

I guess the question is:

Are folks comfortable with:

T1: Black Vise
T2: Black Vise, Black Vise

as a possible sequence?

Or, even just:

T1: Black Vise,
T2: Black Vise, Bolt You

I think Black Vise might make Burn too strong...

Black Vise is like a 1 colorless mana Lightning Bolt that does 5 damage or more to a player's head...

Is that a fair card?


No more or less fair than just bolt, bolt, bolt. Vise was banned all the way back when you drew on the play. Being on the play against a deck with black vise turn 1 might not be much better in the early game then having them just Lava Spike you.

G/w player: Forest / Noble Hierarch. Go. (5 cards)

Wal-Mart Burn Vise Player: Mountain -> Vise.

G/w player: 19. Draw (6 cards). Land (cast some man or GSZ). 4 cards pass.

The worst case scenario you outline for a control deck doing nothing but playing lands is certainly grim. But that's what the vise was "designed" to do from the old days.

Really it does 2 things

1) Give prison strategies (Winter Orb / Stasis / Land Destruction) a viable win condition
2) Might be good in burn vs. true control match ups

There are far more miserable, unbalanced things to be on the receiving end of in legacy for a fair deck

Turn 2 Show and Tell
Turn 2/3 Game Ending Storm Spell
On the draw being Belched

[zendo]

You can take another scenerio into consideration. What if there were no brainstorm? Would blue still enjoy the same success? ?

This made me stop and think. Personally, I have no problem with blue's dominance, as I am a fan of the color. My initial gut instinct is to agree with you. Without Brainstorm, I would probably not play the color....or at least ...some... decks. I'm going to be giving this some though the rest of the day.

[nedleeds]

Yes it should.
That way Control will be forced to play Ivory Towers.

/sarcasm was lost in translation/

Hey Ivory Tower is restricted ... oh that's right it came off years ago ... about the same time Vise should have. While we're at it lets unban mind twist and really get shit moving.

[nedleeds]

This made me stop and think. Personally, I have no problem with blue's dominance, as I am a fan of the color. My initial gut instinct is to agree with you. Without Brainstorm, I would probably not play the color....or at least ...some... decks. I'm going to be giving this some though the rest of the day.

Clearly Brainstorm is more powerful then many banned list cards, but remains as a 'format defining card' (whatever the F that means).

[rnightingale]

Yes, Black Vise is safe to be unbanned but either Earthcraft or Mind Twist might go off the list first.

[death]

I would rather see WGD come off first before Earthcraft because it's a more fun 2-card combo that is easier to disrupt game 1. Keep Black Vise banned because it's a stupid card, nothing is particularly magicky about it.

[Gheizen64]

I would rather see WGD come off first before Earthcraft because it's a more fun 2-card combo that is easier to disrupt game 1. Keep Black Vise banned because it's a stupid card, nothing is particularly magicky about it.

Because Thalia or Trinisphere are "magicky" instead.

[nedleeds]

Keep Black Vise banned because it's a stupid card, nothing is particularly magicky about it.

Not sure what magicky means. But getting Vised was a huge part of magicky magic for a very long time (90s). You could even aruge that Vise was a pillar in type one deck construction circa 1994-5. The speed of the game has increased so much since then I'm not sure how effective it would be by itself. In 1994 it was effective by itself because of a lack of free spells, and the game (all formats) being a few turns slower in general. When coupled with sinkholes, stone rains, ankhs and nether voids it was a fine win condition. On its own I see it being about as effective as Lava Spike, but a much worse top deck, slightly better Lava Spike on the play in your opener.

Others (not you) have used terms like 'fun' in this thread which is really an absurd argument in a format like legacy. You are weighing the 'fun-ness' of Tangle Wire / Prison. Is that less fun then having Emrakul / Omniscience dropped on you turn 2? Fun isn't a ban or unban criteria. Being on the draw vs. a naturally flipped delver and having every spell you put on the stack countered and every fetchland you activate stifled by some mouth breathing RUG player isn't fun either.

[Redwall]

Black Vice, Mind Twist, and Earthcraft are beyond safe to unban. They wouldn't even be legacy staples. But it'll probably never happen. Look at how long it took for a clearly unplayable card like land tax to come off the list.

[Richard Cheese]

Yes because I have one in every printed language?

[jtos84]

There is no problem with what anyone has posted, but I just wanted to bring up a few points, so that we may stay focused. The original intention of this particular topic is to discuss black vise. It is also best to be prepared with either play testing results or some metagame logic. I said earlier that the discussion will bear more fruit if everyone refrains from persuasive statements like it is not fun, it is stupid, it is unfair, its not magicky, or anything of the like. I will also add that if some people would like to discuss reasons for the possible unbanning of other cards they will have better results starting a thread. If you would like I can start if for you just let me know.The discussion I have seen on the other cards is just back and forth with no evidence to back anything up. I would rather other cards be discussed in another thread.

I think we should be analyzing black vise in terms of the metagame, and what it can do to do it whether it is positive or negative. I have been thinking about this, so I will share some of my thoughts. There is monthly metagame analysis on this website. There is an abnormal amount of decks at the top of the list that represent few archetypes. This happens in magic fairly often I know, but I am concerned about the absence of other archetpyes. There are a number of miracles archetypes, and even control decks that go long. On their own their representation in the format makes little difference aside from the fact they are keeping other archetypes out. I think there is a certain card similiar to a card on the banned list that is responsible for this. It is also a card partly responsible for past succuss with black vise.

Terminus is a card that has the same effect as balance. Before anyone gets upset that it does not kill a land and does not make anyone discard I would like to add that makes it even better. The player can eliminate all the opponents creatures without discarding any of the own cards, and to add to it silimiar decks use batterskull. You may ask why this matters. It is because decks called weenie decks, or other decks like zoo, or anything similiar are not nearly as competitive as they used to be. Terminus obviosuly leads to much less diversification in the format. This causes players who would have played other decks to more than likely play nothing at all.

In my opinion black vise is the card that will tip the balance and allow these decks to see play again without banning any other cards. Arguments such as black vise will randomly win games should bear no real meaning. That already happens to every deck from the top teir down because you can not perfectly adjust decks to every deck. If black vise is in the format every deck is not going to win because they randomly play a black vise. If anything it will make every deck seeing less play to see the amount of play they should. On top of that it would probably be a s/b card. People may argue goblins and merfolk respresent the aggro strategies, but that is only because they are the extremes of the strategy. There are in fact many archetypes that are suppresed because of terminus and batterskull.

Jace the mind sculptor does not see a lot of resistance because of terminus, and the opponenets jace is its worse enemy. Decks that recieve so many huge advantages should not be given much sympathy when it comes to an easy to deal with card like black vise especially when it could balance things out.

Please back up any replies with sound logic or testing results. Anything for or against should just be disregarded because there is no supporting evidence and it just clutters the forum. It is obvious that people will be very for or against, but nearly every card is loved or hated by players. I would just ask that we keep it civil and use supporting evidence.

[jtos84]

I just wanted to add something about the rock, paper, scissors anologies I hear so much about. If magic were really like that game then who would play it? Matches are not decided by this archetype being better than another. If they are and it is a complete auto win then something should obviosuly be done. I hear pro players reference this game, but I don't think it has much use when analyzing magic the gathering.