[IDEA] Red Control - Undying Flames

[Aquinas1]

4 Dread Statuary
8 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Barbarian Ring
4 Forgotten Cave
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

4 Ghost-Lit Raider
4 Ridge Rannet
4 Chartooth Cougar

4 Undying Flames
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Koth of the Hammer
4 Seething Song
4 Slice and Dice
4 Grim Monolith

SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Ingot Chewer
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Blood Moon

This is only an early rogue burn deck list idea which I thought I'd share after semi-successful testing. Essentially the deck controls the board early with mostly un-counterable effects and brings out the win-con (Koth of the Hammer or Undying Flames) between turn 2 - 4. Koth is a great card for speeding up the deck but he also protects himself until going into land ping control mode. I have chosen the likes of Ridge Rannet, Chartooth Cougar, and Ghost-Lit Raider because of their relatively high mana costs for Undying Flames (very few creatures have toughness above 4) and they serve a purpose before and (more importantly) after Undying Flames has been cast. At a pinch can be hard cast but not advisable. The cycling theme also allows me to find key cards faster than Burn and as efficiently as many creature based decks. To my surprise Slice and Dice has proven an MVP on many occasions, wiping boards turn 3 -4 and often protecting Koth so I can control the board. To boot it has a CMC 6 which is fantastic with Undying Flames!

I am testing this list rather than the traditional burn list because of my hate for playing roulette with my top-deck. Also, Undying Flames has proven very strong against control decks due to needing to be countered each turn, and naturally creature based decks. However combo is an unfavourable MU.

This deck will likely never grace the decks to beat forum but it is a fun concept and budget friendly which has a fair bit of fight to it as well.

[tianyuan2k4]

If it's red and it's control. I would suggest the inclusion of Ensnaring Bridge. Red cards have many way to do direct damage thus you can hide behind the bridge and burn till you win.

[Aquinas1]

If it's red and it's control. I would suggest the inclusion of Ensnaring Bridge. Red cards have many way to do direct damage thus you can hide behind the bridge and burn till you win.

Thanks for the suggestion however Ensnaring Bridge doesn't really work well with cycling cards + Undying Flames not allowing me to cast some cards turn 5 onwards.

I am considering Simian Spirit Guide to speed me up a turn and works as a free lightning bolt after turn 5. I think this deck could do with other higher CMC cards that have abilities which can be used cheaply to control the board early on, with cards like Jiwari the Earth Aflame and Ridge Rannet , although being useful, not really pulling their weight as much as I'd like. Especially Jiwari.

[theillest]

The budget / casual forum may be a better home for this concept.
The list lacks synergy, a controling mechanism and pressure. Your kill conditions are far too slow. Also, Cantrips > cycling.


Also, Undying Flames has proven very strong against control decks due to needing to be countered each turn, and naturally creature based decks. What have you played against?

[Aquinas1]

The budget / casual forum may be a better home for this concept.
The list lacks synergy, a controling mechanism and pressure. Your kill conditions are far too slow. Also, Cantrips > cycling.

What have you played against?

LOL talk about a write-off.

Maybe that's where it belongs and I am under no illusions that it is a world beater as stated in my first post. Nonetheless, it is a new concept for legacy has proven relatively successful in testing against legacy staples and is an idea that I would like input on so I can develop it further. Perhaps the 'New and Development Decks' forum is not a bad place for it me-thinks? :wink: There are less suitable decks for the current meta often suggested that receive considerable attention.

Tested against Maverick, Canadian Thresh, Elves, Merfolk and found them to be favourable MUs. Mixed success against Goblins and Miracles and I must admit I was totally destroyed by combo/renanimator variants :laugh: :laugh::laugh: The SB is readily adaptable to deal with control games 2 and 3, also making Merfolk almost a walkover. In a heavily littered meta of control and tribal beats this deck fares relatively well. Also cantrips are counterable, cycling is not. Furthermore, this deck is not about winning quickly but instead plays very similarly to the Gate, which for a time was fairly successful, by controlling the board until you come across a win-con. Even Undying Flames often works as at the very least a lightning bolt each turn to control the board if need be until they run out of threats. It has the advantage of having a high treat density and being for the most part un-counterable.

The cards in the list certainly are not world beaters in and of themselves but it certainly does not lack synergy. Don't be fooled by the high CMCs on the list, Pyrokinesis can be cast before hitting Undying Flames turn 5 practically for free (and often earlier), Chartooth Cougar and Ridge Rannet are cycled early to dig into Koth of the Hammer or Unyding Flames (8 win-cons with uncounterable draw). That doesn't include opportunist volleys with Dread Statuary after clearing the board with Slice and Dice and Pyrokinesis etc as the game goes on. The aforementioned win-cons are also great to run into with Undying Flames and serve a purpose afterwards. Koth of the Hammer has ample protection with burn and it's +1 ability. The high CMCs can all be used at a cheaper cost for relevant effects but also allow for high damage because of Undying Flames. Also with Chartooth Cougar and cycling I practically never miss my land drop (majority basics are helpful against wastelands).

BTW when I say controlling in the sense that the board is kept clear (hence why Pox and Miracles are called control decks). Strange assessment claiming the list contains not enough controlling cards? I feel perhaps it is already a little to heavy game 1 with board wipers...

Ultimately, the concept is effective (enough) in the current meta over 3 games (give it a test if you aren't convinced) and very affordable. It plays a different style to traditional burn but has the ability to play a longer game which burn sucks at once its bolts etc are all countered or it is overrun by creatures. Like I said, think of Pox or the Gate for a similar play style.

Any recommendations in regards to card choices?

[Aquinas1]

+4 Grim Monolith
+4 Ancient Tomb

-4 Jiwari, the Earth Aflame
-4 Mountains.

For those interested turn 2 Koth of the Hammer or turn 3 Undying Flames with Seething Song generally leads to a quick win.

[Hanni]

Timesifter. Even without manipulation, it's probably gg after it resolves. Toss in Scroll Rack, and now you have a nice card quality engine that turns Timesifter into a literal gg. I suggested Scroll Rack instead of Sensei's Divining Top because of the higher cc, and it dodges Chalice of the Void set to 1.

Speaking of Chalice, I'd find a way to fit some into your 75. It may not play nice with Undying Flames, but it's still very powerful nonetheless.

Grim Monolith seems pretty bad without a way to cheat the untap cost. I'd recommend Simian Spirit Guide instead.

Also, Dread Sanctuary is horrible. Just because you are playing big cc spells for Undying Flames, doesn't mean you should play horribly inefficient cards for no reason. Mishra's Factory is much better as a manland, although I don't see why you would need to run manlands at all.

Your low count of Mountains also makes Koth's ultimate much less spectacular. If you plan to run a low Mountain count, I'd recommend running Blood Moon's main.

I also don't get the point of the Forgotten Cave's. Your deck has no synergy with the cycling ability, and having nonbasic lands come into play tapped is awful. These should either be City of Traitors, or more Mountains.

Finally, I'm not digging the Barbarian Ring's either. I mean, yea it gives you more burn density, but 4 Ancient Tomb and 3 Barbarian Ring is going to cause you alot of pain.

Another interesting route to take the "Red Control" route into is more artifact based, with a bunch of artifact mana sources, Wildfire/Devastation/Destructive Force/Disaster Radius/etc. That approach is obviously much different than what you are going for, but it's another interesting way to build a "Red Control" deck. Voltaic Key, Grim Monolith, Thran Dynamo, Mox Diamond, Darksteel Citadel, and Mox Opal is where I would start in terms of artifact mana sources.