[Deck] U/G Enchantress

[benthetenor]

I don't think SoR is the answer for Florian though since he isn't on CoF anyway. If you are going to play a card that has limited other synergy with your deck, there are better cards to play than SoR, right?

Which is fine for him. The deck I'm discussing, the one that this thread is about, plays both Cloud of Faeries and Seal of Removal. His deck only shares 35 out of 75 cards with the deck that this thread is about. So if he's having issues with beating Sneak and Show, well, I'm not sure what else to tell him in this thread other than to play this deck. As it stands, this deck has a good matchup with Sneak and Show, because it plays Seal of Removal.

[cdnza]

It just seems like it doesn't really benefit anyone to exclude candle/sanctum decks from the thread. The enchantress playerbase is already small enough that fragmenting it further doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, especially given that a lot of the discussion in this thread in 2018 has been about candle builds (which Fjaulnir and TJG have played to 5-0 modo finishes etc).

I'm in the discord and I'm subscribed to this, the solitaire thread, the witch house thread, and the opalwave thread - so it doesn't affect me all that much if people decide that we need yet another thread. It just seems like a bit of a waste.

[ParisFlorian]

I don't think SoR is the answer for Florian though since he isn't on CoF anyway. If you are going to play a card that has limited other synergy with your deck, there are better cards to play than SoR, right?

I agree... Against Show and tell decks, I feel happier if I can cast a Choke (or even In the Eye of Chaos) on T2.
The odds to get both 1 blue seal and 1 green seal in the early game are very low (about 15-20%, considering you play 4 blue and 2 green seals). I expect a SB card to have a strong effect on its own, and in my case it doesnt.
Plus I don't play faeries, so...

[ParisFlorian]

Which is fine for him. The deck I'm discussing, the one that this thread is about, plays both Cloud of Faeries and Seal of Removal. His deck only shares 35 out of 75 cards with the deck that this thread is about. So if he's having issues with beating Sneak and Show, well, I'm not sure what else to tell him in this thread other than to play this deck. As it stands, this deck has a good matchup with Sneak and Show, because it plays Seal of Removal.

No problem to create a new thread... but in the end I think we all read the same threads... (Witch House and co)
And I would be alone with my Candelabra-No GSZ-UGWB Enchantress deck :)

[benthetenor]

I do not read or post in any other Enchantress threads because this is the only version of Enchantress that I think is viable in terms of being able to take down a large tournament (a GP or an Open). This is based on the strength of the lists presented in the OP, along with the pedigree (Andrew Cuneo is no joke) and the fact that it had in the past found success in the hands of players other than the guy who created it. The fact that your deck doesn't function in any way like the deck that this thread is based on can only lead to confusion; case in point, your question "how do you beat Sneak and Show", or your issues with Diabolic Edict + Snapcaster Mage, just become confusing when you're asking in a thread about a deck that is not even half the same as yours. Which is fine, you're free to ask the question, but you have to understand that you're going to get answers and strategies that revolve around the deck that people who come here looking for UG Enchantress are actually discussing, not the one that you've been evolving off to the side. Which might still be useful information to you, but you can't expect people to cater their responses to exactly your pet deck when it looks and acts nothing like this deck. If we are all playing and talking about the same deck, then the answer to that question makes perfect sense and can actually do some good. I have answers to those questions that involve playing with the cards in this deck. You may take that however you'd like.

I think the player base for Enchantress is just going to be fragmented since apparently no one can agree on what a competitive Enchantress deck looks like. The point of this thread is to discuss this deck, which is very distinctly different from both traditional G/W Enchantress and different from a build that plays with Candelabra of Tawnos. It's different in the cards it plays, the way it wins the game, even the basic philosophy of deck construction. It is different in the fact that it has put up results in large tournament fields in the hands of several people, which is why it's in the "Established Decks" section. This is not me trying to say one is actually better or worse (I think one is, but then you think yours is better, too, otherwise you wouldn't be playing it), but come on man. You're not playing Green Sun's Zenith, Cloud of Faeries, Eternal Witness, Seal of Removal, and you've turned the actual payoff card of this deck, Words of Wind, into a secondary or tertiary win condition. Those are all cards that make this deck distinct, and all of them were carefully chosen to perform a specific role, to make the deck work a certain way. You're just playing a different deck. It does no one any good for me to continuously point out the issues that I have with your deck (consistency, susceptibility to Wasteland, playing a dedicated win condition, playing a bunch of cards that do nothing...) which I think are solved in the deck that this thread is about, which is the whole point of why I think this deck is competitive where many other versions of Enchantress have struggled in the big tournaments. And you might not want to build a deck that is designed to win big tournaments, or might want to win "your way". That's totally fine, but this thread exists to promote and discuss a deck that is brutally efficient and has the ability to do very well in the format.

The fact that there has been significant discussion here on the Enchantress deck that plays with Candelabra of Tawnos suggests that a thread dedicated to that deck would do just fine. I don't own this thread, and it definitely doesn't matter to me. If everyone here wants to talk about a Candelabra deck instead, I will just stop reading and discussing, and I'll keep developing this deck on my own. But if that's the case, what is even the point of having threads that delineate between different strategies?

[Turboninja]

Good to have you Ben, I was kind of lost in all those Candelabra lists. I don't mind different lists here and there, but I rather see lists that are true to UG Enchantress in the UG Enchantress thread :wink:

I am working on a list to bring to SCG Baltimore. I will post shortly what I have, which by the way is pretty close to Andersen's list.

I feel like the deck has legs in this meta where storm is somehow evaporated and where big threats are black (Elephant Grass). Decks are a tad slower from the DRS ban.

[Beerpirat]

Good to have you Ben, I was kind of lost in all those Candelabra lists.
Thx. Its good to hear that somebodyelse have the same feelings like me.
I am still reading here but dont have a lot of time to write here but n1 to have you both.
At the moment i need some new ideas for my anderson list.

[Turboninja]

Thx. Its good to hear that somebodyelse have the same feelings like me.
I am still reading here but dont have a lot of time to write here but n1 to have you both.
At the moment i need some new ideas for my anderson list.

The deck at its core cannot change all that much. Among other things, I reduced the number of Carpet of Flowers I played MD for a Mirri's Guile and another land. I found that lately there were too many matchups where the card was dead. It's debatable from one meta to another.

For the SB, I tried a few things. I tried to play white as my third colour for Teeg and Renegade Rallier. I tried red for Blood Moon and Words of War. I tried black for Doomwake Giant and Parallax Nexus. Each had its advantages. Teeg makes for a great card against Storm. Rallier is great against Chalice decks to get back that Seal of Primordium and the like. Blood Moon gets you random wins and Words of War helps creature matchups such as Infect and control matchups. Doomwake Giant is awesome against any non white deck, as a premium creature, and against D&T as a sweeper. Parallax Nexus, although coming online on turn two, has won me quite a few games against Storm and burn.

Right now, I am on the sole Black splash, for Doomwake Giant and Duress. Duress is an odd one, but I found it to be very potent against combo (evidently) but also burn. With Eternal Witness, we can easily keep a combo opponent from assembling his cards.

Overall, I feel like this deck needs to play to its strengths. That is, it must always be able to develop its board using Fast Mana and Enchantress Effects. If this strategy goes well, you will most probably win. That is why you need redundancy in Fast Mana and Enchantress Effects, and why Green Sun Zenith is so important (being both acceleration and an enchantress). We lose when we cannot establish our board fast enough or if our control pieces require us to slow down too much.

Having said that, my current build tries to respect the following criteria:

1. Make sure there is a reasonable chance to draw at least two enchantresses within the first 3 turns. (with 12 enchantresses, >64% chance)
2. Make sure that cards that do not advance your plan (mana, enchantresses and controlling enchantments) do not slow you down (i.e. use free to cast cards when possible, such as Tormod's Crypt, Mindbreak Trap, Faerie Macabre, Surgical Extraction, etc.)
3. Make sure the controlling cards are appropriately dosed for the expected meta (Elephant Grass, Seal of Removal, Seal of Primordium)

Full list:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
7 Forest
2 Island

Creatures:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Cloud of Faeries
2 Eternal Witness

Spells:
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Seal of Removal
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Words of Wind
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Mindbreak Trap

SB:
2 Seal of Primordium
2 Compost
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Doomwake Giant
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Duress
1 Flusterstorm

Any thoughts on my list?

[dredge90]

I agree with Ben. Words of wind and Cloud of Faeries are what make this deck what it is. The Candle deck is completely different and you can tell that there have often been 2 different conversations for each deck.

[WarpWorld]

I agree with Ben. Words of wind and Cloud of Faeries are what make this deck what it is. The Candle deck is completely different and you can tell that there have often been 2 different conversations for each deck.I think it is more budget vs. non budget when it comes to cof and candle. I don't think that it makes them different architypes just a more gassed version of the other. They do lead to some different card choices when building your deck as candle is more potent.

[kombatkiwi]

I think it is more budget vs. non budget when it comes to cof and candle. I don't think that it makes them different architypes just a more gassed version of the other. They do lead to some different card choices when building your deck as candle is more potent.

I agree: Words of Wind is still a core card in the Candelabra version, I don't know which lists you are looking at @dredge90 but you seem to be suggesting that there are lists playing Candles but not WoW
Candelabra is just a way stronger card than CoF for what the deck is doing

[ParisFlorian]

I think it is more budget vs. non budget when it comes to cof and candle. I don't think that it makes them different architypes just a more gassed version of the other. They do lead to some different card choices when building your deck as candle is more potent.

I agree with that.

OK Ben, my 4c deck you gently qualify as a pet deck differs from yours, but I really think we share a common philosophy and (in general) common issues.
Plus, I think it is good to weight the pros and cons of different builds, especially when any some players do have experienced both builds.

I also play Pox. There are many ways to play Pox : classical Pox with Sinkhole / Nether Void / Tabernacle / Chains (the one I play), aggro Pox with Bloodgasts, Budget Pox etc etc. Sometimes the builds share less than 35 cards, and yet we discuss about all these Pox decks, their strengths, weaknesses, in a single, very active, Pox thread.

That's just my own opinion, but in the end if people are confused with a mixed thread, I would be happy to create a new one... or just stop sharing.

[benthetenor]

To be very clear, this is not a budget issue. When I say that our philosophies are different, I am not meaning to be vague. Here are some of the specific differences between your deck and ours:

1) Mana Base. In UG Enchantress, there is almost never a need to play a non-basic land into Wasteland. It is rare, on the order of once in 7-10 games, that I even have a non-basic on the board and most of the time that is the Dryad Arbor. In your build, you play only 5 Forest and you have to rely on inferior cards like Abundant Growth and Sylvan Library to fix colors. That is not a benefit, it is a liability. Additionally, you play a large number of Serra's Sanctum. That card does a great job of helping you win when you are already winning, and it actively hurts you when you are behind. It produces 0 mana on an empty board and it is a mulligan if it is the only land in your opening hand. I don't choose not to play it because I can't afford it. I choose not to play it because I think it is bad.

2) Win Condition. In UG Enchantress, there are no cards that have the sole purpose of winning the game, like Emrakul. This is intentional. If you draw Emrakul when you are losing, you will keep losing, and even harder. If you draw Eternal Witness when you are losing, you stand an excellent chance of being able to get back into the game. The deck is designed that way, intentionally, to eliminate dead draws at every point, which greatly decreases mulligans and greatly increases the potency of top-decks.

3) Consistency. UG Enchantress plays 12, sometimes 13 Enchantress effects where your deck plays 9. This is intentional. It greatly increases the odds of hitting a second Enchantress by turn 3, it ensures that your engine (which is having 2+ Enchantress effects in play) is more robust in the face of disruption, and it increases the consistency with which you go off. It decreases mulligans, and makes the negative effect of the mulligans you have to take much less pronounced. The more consistent mana base also decreases mulligans, as the range of hands you can keep is greatly increased when you're not playing with Serra's Sanctum. It gets Words of Wind in play and then bounces the entire board nearly 100% of the time by turn 5, even through disruption. It has no backup plan, because it is consistent enough to not require one.

4) No Do-Nothing cards. I've tried to be polite about this part, but I think I need to be more direct as to why I don't play the same cards that you do. Candelabra of Tawnos is not too expensive for me to own, it is trash. It is a terrible top-deck, it only adds to the power of the deck when you are already winning (with either a Serra's Sanctum and a board full of enchantments, or with a few lands with a lot of Wild Growth effects) and it's not even an enchantment to draw you cards when you are still setting up. Abundance is trash. Estrid's Invocation is trash. Sterling Grove, Ixilan's Binding (and other Oblivion Ring effects), Emrakul, Solitary Confinement, Karmic Justice, all trash. In place of cards that do nothing a large percentage of the time, UG Enchantress plays Seal of Removal that slows down the opponent, progresses the combo by bouncing Cloud of Faeries, or functions as a draw engine with Eternal Witness when you have tons of mana but are short on enchantments. It plays Green Sun's Zenith, which functions as an Enchantress, a Wild Growth, an Eternal Witness, or a sideboard bullet, depending on what you need at that exact moment. It sometimes plays Carpet of Flowers, which either adds a good amount of mana, or at the very least is a 1 mana enchantment so it draws 2-4 cards for very little tempo investment. It plays Cloud of Faeries, which is an accelerant, a flying blocker, a draw spell, or a win condition, depending on what you need in the moment. Every card in this deck either progresses you towards winning the game or stalls the opponent long enough for you to win the game. No wasted space, no inefficient movement.


You can play whatever you want to play. Make no mistake, I am not playing the cards you are playing because they are worse in this deck than the cards I am playing. This deck costing very little to build is a positive thing, but if there were more expensive cards that were better at doing the job, I would be playing those. I have a stack of expensive Enchantress cards sitting right next to me that are not in the deck because they were tried and found to be worse than the cards that are in it. These are all differences in philosophy, but in the end they all kind of say the same thing: I play good cards that are selected to increase consistency at every point, and any card that is inconsistent in any way does not make the cut. That is a massive, massive difference in deckbuilding philosophy, and I am surprised that you wouldn't recognized it, or would misclassify it as some sort of "budget" issue.

You are free to disagree with me, 100%, on the things I value in building Enchantress. But these philosophies are all reasons that UG Enchantress is different from every other Enchantress deck that exists, and they are reasons why this deck has it's own, separate thread. It is so that we don't have to spend endless time telling you why this deck doesn't want to play Serra's Sanctum. Please, respect that.

[benthetenor]

I agree: Words of Wind is still a core card in the Candelabra version, I don't know which lists you are looking at @dredge90 but you seem to be suggesting that there are lists playing Candles but not WoW
Candelabra is just a way stronger card than CoF for what the deck is doing

If you can win the game without ever resolving Words of Wind, you are playing a different deck than UG Enchantress. That is the difference, and that is why there are often two different conversations going on.

[cdnza]

This attitude is baffling to me but I have no interest in arguing with anyone. Florian (and others) if you are interested in talking about decks I highly encourage you to join the Enchantress discord. Feel free to PM me for an invite link if you can't find one otherwise.

[dredge90]

This attitude is baffling to me but I have no interest in arguing with anyone. Florian (and others) if you are interested in talking about decks I highly encourage you to join the Enchantress discord. Feel free to PM me for an invite link if you can't find one otherwise.

The easiest comparison here would be for someone to go into the rug delver and start talking about their grixis delver list. Ben has said everything that needs to be said. These are 2 completely different decks.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Man what a toxic community

[benthetenor]

Man what a toxic community

I know man, I know. It's so rude of them to not keep their commentary germane to the topic at hand.



The deck at its core cannot change all that much. Among other things, I reduced the number of Carpet of Flowers I played MD for a Mirri's Guile and another land. I found that lately there were too many matchups where the card was dead. It's debatable from one meta to another.

For the SB, I tried a few things. I tried to play white as my third colour for Teeg and Renegade Rallier. I tried red for Blood Moon and Words of War. I tried black for Doomwake Giant and Parallax Nexus. Each had its advantages. Teeg makes for a great card against Storm. Rallier is great against Chalice decks to get back that Seal of Primordium and the like. Blood Moon gets you random wins and Words of War helps creature matchups such as Infect and control matchups. Doomwake Giant is awesome against any non white deck, as a premium creature, and against D&T as a sweeper. Parallax Nexus, although coming online on turn two, has won me quite a few games against Storm and burn.

Right now, I am on the sole Black splash, for Doomwake Giant and Duress. Duress is an odd one, but I found it to be very potent against combo (evidently) but also burn. With Eternal Witness, we can easily keep a combo opponent from assembling his cards.

Overall, I feel like this deck needs to play to its strengths. That is, it must always be able to develop its board using Fast Mana and Enchantress Effects. If this strategy goes well, you will most probably win. That is why you need redundancy in Fast Mana and Enchantress Effects, and why Green Sun Zenith is so important (being both acceleration and an enchantress). We lose when we cannot establish our board fast enough or if our control pieces require us to slow down too much.

Having said that, my current build tries to respect the following criteria:

1. Make sure there is a reasonable chance to draw at least two enchantresses within the first 3 turns. (with 12 enchantresses, >64% chance)
2. Make sure that cards that do not advance your plan (mana, enchantresses and controlling enchantments) do not slow you down (i.e. use free to cast cards when possible, such as Tormod's Crypt, Mindbreak Trap, Faerie Macabre, Surgical Extraction, etc.)
3. Make sure the controlling cards are appropriately dosed for the expected meta (Elephant Grass, Seal of Removal, Seal of Primordium)

Full list:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
7 Forest
2 Island

Creatures:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Cloud of Faeries
2 Eternal Witness

Spells:
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Seal of Removal
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Words of Wind
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Mindbreak Trap

SB:
2 Seal of Primordium
2 Compost
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Doomwake Giant
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Duress
1 Flusterstorm

Any thoughts on my list?

I like the list, Turboninja. I think what I've found in my time playing the deck is that, from the original list, there is a set of 2-4 cards that are the "flex" slots that can come out in almost every matchup, and then there are the 8 anti-creature cards (Elephant Grass and Seal of Removal) that can sometimes come out in some number. In the original list, those were the 2 Carpet of Flowers, 1 Mindbreak Trap (or Living Wish if you're Chranderson) and 1 Seal of Primordium. Not that you always would get rid of all of those cards, but the rest of the deck doesn't really move. But realizing that really helped me crystalize my sideboarding strategy, to the point where I had to avoid putting more than those 2-4 (usually 3 is the magic number) cards in. So against decks like Eldrazi or Death and Taxes, which are creature-based with lots of artifacts, I'd just side in the three Disenchant effects for the 2 Carpet and 1 Mindbreak Trap, and I'm golden. Which means adding any cards to deal with those matchups is pretty bad, since I'd be removing strong cards to make room.

It's not hard-and-fast, of course, and some matchups Seals are worse and Elephant Grass is better, or vice versa, but it helped me form a sideboard that right now looks something like this:

1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Compost
2 Deep Analysis
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Chill
2 Invasive Surgery
2 Mindbreak Trap

This lets me board out a lot of what's terrible without sacrificing too much to make the deck function worse. Sometimes Seal of Removal is just better than a random hate card, even if it's not great, because it can keep the combo going and keep drawing cards, for instance. But it lets me get more resilient in the face of Discard or counterspells or Abrupt Decay decks (Deep Analysis, Compost, Garruk), lets me play some combo hate (Invasive Surgery, Mindbreak Trap and Tormod's Crypt all come in against storm, and some come in against some other decks), and still gives me one or two cards against Delver, since I don't need much more than that. It keeps moving a little bit, and I'd love to have some other cards that target Death and Taxes more directly, as I said before, but I think it's pretty balanced and doesn't have any huge holes.

Now, your deck, you cut the Carpets for two cards that you probably wouldn't ever board out, so it's probably a little different for you. For me, I like being pre-boarded in that slot a little bit, even if it's not directly with Carpet of Flowers, just so that it gives me a little more depth in my sideboard. But I like a lot of what you're doing in yours, just my thoughts on what I'd play to face the metagame as of today.

[kombatkiwi]

I know man, I know. It's so rude of them to not keep their commentary germane to the topic at hand.

Lol, so you see a thread on a message board and rather than use it to promote actual discussion you want to turn it into a cargo cult where only thing allowed is regurgitation of a a list played by 1 dude 6 years ago.

@cdnza PM me the discord

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Congrats to y'all's recent success with the Anderson list tho

[ParisFlorian]

This attitude is baffling to me but I have no interest in arguing with anyone. Florian (and others) if you are interested in talking about decks I highly encourage you to join the Enchantress discord. Feel free to PM me for an invite link if you can't find one otherwise.

I would be happy to join your group. Could you please MP me the link ?
I feel there is very little room for discussion here...

Ben, I leave you with your sacred holy list :)
You are so wrong on many statements in your last posts, but I don't see the point answering anymore.

[Turboninja]

@Ben, I'd like if you could sell me on some of your SB choices.


1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Compost
2 Deep Analysis
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Chill
2 Invasive Surgery
2 Mindbreak Trap

This lets me board out a lot of what's terrible without sacrificing too much to make the deck function worse. Sometimes Seal of Removal is just better than a random hate card, even if it's not great, because it can keep the combo going and keep drawing cards, for instance. But it lets me get more resilient in the face of Discard or counterspells or Abrupt Decay decks (Deep Analysis, Compost, Garruk), lets me play some combo hate (Invasive Surgery, Mindbreak Trap and Tormod's Crypt all come in against storm, and some come in against some other decks), and still gives me one or two cards against Delver, since I don't need much more than that. It keeps moving a little bit, and I'd love to have some other cards that target Death and Taxes more directly, as I said before, but I think it's pretty balanced and doesn't have any huge holes.

1. Is only 1 Tormod's Crypt ever useful? I've been alternating between 2 and 3 myself.
2. I've seen the posts on Deep Analysis, and probably should try them myself. However, I don't see when it's better than compost against discard for instance. Or why I would pay 3 life against Delver.
3. Garruk?? Isn't there a better payoff card? Why not original Wildspeaker? It can sometimes help in the combo and whatnot. I understand that blue is off limits due to blasts and all.

Other than that, I have to say Invasive Surgery sounds really nice, as we often have delirium. Against Show and Tell, Reanimate, Exhume, Infernal Tutor, etc. I wonder if it's worth losing the instant counters on Flusterstorm.

[benthetenor]

Yeah man, no problem.

1.) For one Tormod's Crypt, it's been better than 0 and probably not as good as 2, so it's kind of a space issue. What I've found is that in most of the graveyard matchups (Dredge, Reanimator, Storm to a lesser degree), Elephant Grass is so good that it doesn't take much else. And again, going by my 2-4 card theory, I don't need much. So combining 1 Tormod's Crypt with 2 Invasive Surgery and 1 Compost gets me to the 4 cards that I need. Probably if I had the room a second Crypt (or maybe a Surgical Extraction) would be better in the matchup than the Compost since they're so fast, but if it's between having a semi-redundant card for Reanimator or being able to play, for instance, a Chill for the Moon Stompy lists, I'd rather hedge a little bit in that direction. But I have played more than one piece of graveyard hate in the past, and it's been good then, too. If you've got the space, it's definitely better than the Compost most of the time, but then I'd probably also consider a Lignify before the second Crypt if I were looking for help against Reanimator specifically. Which is not to say that Crypt isn't just better than Lignify, I just like having a diverse set of answers so they're live more often.

2.) For me, Compost is a great secondary card against discard, but whenever I've leaned on it primarily to help against discard, it's been the first target for discard or it's come down too late to actually counteract their discard spells. Deep Analysis is my anti-discard card of choice because it functions even better if it gets discarded (most likely off of a Hymn to Tourach, since no one would ever target it with a Thoughtseize or something like that), and if it doesn't, it draws you four card to completely negate whatever they try to do. Other benefits include it being a great card against a counterspell-heavy deck like Miracles or Stoneblade (and being very resilient to counterspells), where Compost usually doesn't do much there. It does have the downside of costing life, which is a liability against the Delver decks with black, but against them I'm not boarding in very much, anyway. Like, against Death's Shadow (which is a great matchup, but which is a black Delver deck), I usually only want to take out 2 cards (Mindbreak Trap and most of the time Seal of Primordium, unless I have the soul read and know they've got Pithing Needle), which works well to bring in a Compost and a Carpet of Flowers and not spend much else sideboard space worrying about it. It would be nice to be able to have a card that does what Deep Analysis does without costing life, but then it would probably just be strictly better than Compost. But I like Deep Analysis against any deck that is trying to grind you out, especially any deck that is less aggressive like Grixis Control or Miracles, with Compost coming in a large percentage of the time if I have even more cards to cut.

3.) Garruk looks awful, but he's been incredible for me in the past. I stumbled upon him while trying to figure out the Jund matchup back in the day, because he does exactly what I want: clogging up the board to stop from being attacked, being difficult to remove while taking over the game, and dodging Abrupt Decay and whatever enchantment hate they might have. With our acceleration there's really not much of a difference between costing 4 and 5, and I like the fact that this Garruk increases loyalty up to 5 when making beasts rather than going to 2 and being in Lightning Bolt range. It's one of my cards against Miracles where the Elephant Grasses aren't great and it gives some threat diversity like Jace would in the original lists, which makes us more difficult to play against. Kind of like anything else in the deck, it let's me cast a card that is immediately threatening to take over the game so that the opponent needs to answer it or lose to it, while in the mean time I can continue to develop my plan A of making enchantresses and drawing cards. I don't think Blue is necessarily off limits, and I do like Jace as an option (probably in place of Deep Analysis, but then Jace can be countered and discarded), but the other thing that Garruk can do that Jace can't is make infinite beasts when you're going off. So it can function like Emrakul would, giving you the opportunity to win in turns rather than take the draw, but it also is a much better card than Emrakul. I don't bring him in against Daze decks, clearly, but pretty much anything that's trying to grind where I have the space, like Miracles and Grixis. And if time is getting tight, he can come in then for game 3 for that reason.


And for me the delirium on Invasive Surgery is a bonus when it happens; so far it's been rarer than you'd think since we almost never have instants or sorceries in the graveyard and Tormod's Crypt is our only artifact. Mostly I'd be happy with just Envelop, though Invasive Surgery is a strict upgrade. It's great against all of the combo decks because everything from Reanimator to Storm to Sneak and Show to Elves pretty much has to resolve a sorcery to win, and it can also stop discard spells (and Reverent Silence, in the nightmare scenario) so it's pretty much never a dead card. The only thing that sucks is having to leave up an Island, which is always bad, but it's probably necessary against the combo decks. And being a hard counter, even though Flusterstorm almost always functions as one, is a pretty important thing against Elves in particular.

I do think Duress would be better, just because it's more flexible and a bit more of a sure-thing, but Invasive Surgery does most of what I need without having to splash any colors, so there's some value to that, too.

[Turboninja]

Thanks for your insight, I'll have to practice some of those to see how they fare.

[Darklingske]

Just spitballin' here, but would it be possible to integrate Nexus of Fate as a 2 of in our deck? Question remains of course what to replace and why we would do this, since it would be win more... Guess I already answered my own question :tongue:

[benthetenor]

That's not a terrible idea, though it's definitely not needed and pretty win-more. I think if you really wanted to start taking all of the turns, something simpler like Time Warp would probably be more efficient, and would function better with Eternal Witness loops. But yeah, at the point where you are bouncing their board every turn, you're basically casting Time Walk every turn anyway since at that point they never do anything meaningful for the rest of the game. I will say, the idea of casting Time Warp 600 times then passing the turn gets me excited from a crushing-their-will-to-live standpoint, but completely unnecessary.

[Turboninja]

Gaining some turns can also help in some matchups, to establish the board. However, If you can play some enchantments AND cast Time Warp, that is probably the definition of win more.

I played my list yesterday, with the following sideboard:

2 Compost
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Duress
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Carpet of Flowers

I went 1-2-1, which is the worst I've had lately.

RD 1, UB Shadow. 2-0
Easy wins, both with Elephant Grass as the key player. Watch out for Ratchet bombs, so side in some Seals of Primordium. Otherwise, apart from some discard pressure, COmpost is obviously good here.

RD 2, Death and Taxes 1-2
I lose game one even though I had a great start. Thalia and Port slow me down just enough so that Sanctum Prelate Makes it too hard to win. I win game two off a great start, including bouncing Thalia on turn two and three. The guy had no chance here. I lose game three off their nut draw. Turn 1 mother, turn 2 Thalia, turn 3 Mirran Crusader, turn 4 Ethersworn and port activation, turn five sanctum prelate and concede. Really nothing I could do with my hand. I had sided in the artifact hate and the dread of night. Feels insufficient.

RD 3, Burn 1-2
I win game one, getting an incredible Mindbreak Trap on Chain Lightning after a Riftbolt and a Guide on turn 2. Great stuff! I win with a stable 9 lives at the end. I lose game 2 because of a quick hand and an Eidolon I cannot answer. Game three is very tight. My duresses give me some time, along with Eternal Witness being great too. I still cannot assemble combo quick enough and die from burn spells. I probably could have played this game better and won, but it feels very hard as always.

RD 4, Lands 1-1
I win game one off a mull to 5, and the game is never really in his grasp. I los game two and keep a risky hand that relies on keeping my GSZed Dryad to actually play stuff. This part works fine, but my opp plays turn one Tireless Tracker with Tomb and Mox. He goes on and wins in 4 turns from there. When I play my seal of removal, I decide not to activate immediately and he Krosan Grips it. So much for that, I probably would have won that one. Time is called as I start the third game. I had sided in the Faerie Macabres and Seals of Primordium.

Overall, I did not like not having Doomwake Giant against D&T. Feels very hard against their good, but somewhat frequent hands. Either I put them back in or increase the Dread of Night count, or Massacre??
Faerie Macabre feels okay, it's probably the best I can have against Reanimator turn one, and doubles as a threat I can actually cast. I'll try it some more.

Maybe 1 compost should become Lignify to bring in against Leovold decks, D&T and Fatties.dec

Keep the comments coming, I'd really like to make this work for Baltimore. I'm torn between this and Canadian Thresh which I've also been playing for some time now. Canadian Thresh doesn't feel right for the meta though.

[benthetenor]

My main thought on Dread of Night is that you probably want to be playing 2+ or 0. When I was watching the PT coverage LSV said something that really struck me, which is that Dread of Night is one of the best sideboard cards in the format because just resolving one against Death and Taxes is one of the highest win-percentage shifting plays in all of Legacy (second maybe only to Surgical Extraction against Reanimator). That's the reason why they played 3 in their sideboards, to greatly increase the odds of seeing 1 in a situation that it matters when their cantrips are being pressured. Three is probably a lot for us given how many cards we draw over the course of the game (though I wouldn't fault you for it), but I think you want at least 2 because just landing one turns Seal of Removal back on. I think given the state of the metagame, since this feels pretty close to a 50/50 matchup (I think we are a small favorite, but not a comfortable one), I'd find space for a second Dread of Night. I do agree though, with our deck set up the way that it is, I think that Doomwake Giant is too ambitious in that matchup. I've also moved away from Engineered Plague. Normally that would be a viable card against D&T, but for us naming "Human" wrecks us just as hard as them, and I think there are better cards for Elves or Goblins if that's a thing you're worried about. Massacre would similarly wreck them and us equally in a lot of situations. I think Dread of Night is where you want to be in that matchup, and again, I'd try to play two or three.

I also think that I'd prefer Surgical Extraction to Faerie Macabre since most of the Reanimator in the world these days doesn't play counterspells. In a lot of situations I think they'd be pretty much identical, but Surgical Extraction is a much better card against a lot of other things like Life from the Loam or Storm (most of the time). My preference is to do a split there, probably 1 Tormod's Crypt and 1 Surgical Extraction, but I'm also not against loading up on the best card for Reanimator (which is SE) given the texture of the format. We're way more likely to see Reanimator than Dredge, for example, and Surgical Extraction is still a worthwhile card against most graveyard decks. The life loss is pretty irrelevant against any of the decks we'd be bringing it in against, and pretty much no matter what we play, we've got the infinite rebuys with Eternal Witness. I've also done good work with Wheel of Sun and Moon which sort of functions like a Rest in Peace that doesn't affect us at all, but I like playing that card against slower graveyard based decks, or in situations where I want some splash hate on Snapcaster Mages and Life from the Loam. I think we're pretty set on those matchups now, but it is an option. I also don't hate Ground Seal as a slow anti-Reanimator/Snapcaster Mage/Life from the Loam card (while simultaneously protecting US from Surgical Extraction), but that does shut off Eternal Witness for us which is why I tend to avoid it. It was also better as a value card with Deathrite Shaman in the format, and there are better and faster cards against exactly Reanimator, so I don't think there's any real reason to go that direction.

I think Burn is such a tough matchup because even if you board in 2 Chill and 2 other cards it's probably still 60/40 in their favor. That is one matchup where traditional Enchantress is much stronger since they play 2-3 Solitary Confinement (and most play 4 Leyline of Sanctity out of the sideboard), but for me I just choose to more or less dodge. There are cards we can play, it's just such a small part of the metagame that I'd rather have a random Chill + Kitchen Finks + 3-4 Disenchants to just sometimes cheese them out on the rare times that I play against them, and otherwise not even devote any mental energy to the matchup. Sometimes you randomly just beat them, but most often you lose. I wouldn't even be playing the Chill if it didn't also hit Moon Stompy decks and Goblins, and the first copy of a card is the highest-impact copy, so that makes it worth it to me. It might even be a wasted slot, but I'm personally a big fan of super high-impact cards coming out of the sideboard so that when you do draw them it's devastating. I do think the Duresses are a nice bit of incidental hate, though I would probably add at least a Kitchen Finks just so you've got a reliable turn 3 play that absorbs a lot of their tempo and will lock them out of the game once you establish the lock. And, again, Kitchen Finks is a fine card against a lot of other Lightning Bolt and/or Abrupt Decay strategies anyway, so that's why it's never far from my 75.

For the rest, I'm also just a big fan of splitting cards 1 and 1, rather than playing 2's. That probably didn't come across very well in the last sideboard that I posted, I just generally like to have multiple ways to solve the same issues since it lets me get more mileage out of my sideboard, while also making me harder to play against and increasing the probability that my hate will line up in any given situation. So yeah, I'd probably prefer Lignify + Compost vs. 2 Compost, or Faerie Macabre + Surgical Extraction vs. 2 Faerie Macabre, things like that. The only time I'll go super hard for one specific card is when it is 1) an effect that I really, really need in a matchup and 2) when there are no good analogs in the format. Dread of Night is a great example, or Mindbreak Trap and Invasive Surgery in the sideboard that I'd posted. Those are just the best cards I can be playing (though I would prefer Duress over Invasive Surgery, as I'd said before, if I were playing black), and they're things that I need to see, and in multiples, to increase my chances of winning enough to be worth the slots.

[benthetenor]

I got to test a little bit against Reanimator, and against Miracles, both with a sort of "open sideboard", where I found that for Miracles I really don't need much since it's as extremely good of a matchup as I remember. For Reanimator, the Envelop/Invasive Surgery was pretty effective, but I also found myself needing the Lignify a bit more since a typical play-pattern was to have them combo off, answer their first guy, then eventually drop an extra Seal of Removal (or Eternal Witness/Green Sun's Zenith for one) and drop some graveyard hate to seal the game. It's not perfectly effective since they are so fast, but I was finding trying to stop them from comboing off the first time was pretty miserable since they have so much discard. Though a weakness of that deck as compared to the UB version is the relative inconsistency, so over the course of 3 games they tend to have one great hand and two average ones. Tormod's Crypt is pretty effective on the play. That all changes some of my thinking in that matchup, making me prefer Tormod's Crypt over Surgical Extraction (though a split may still be correct) and finding the Envelop slot to be useful but not quite light's out, since most likely it just stops their first discard spell. Which is sometimes enough if it's pointed at them, but usually it doesn't do all that much. All that put in perspective, here's where I'm at right now:

2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Lignify
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Chill
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Deep Analysis

Also, congratulations to Andrew Cuneo on winning the GP, with his typical wry sense of self-effacement.

[Turboninja]

I'm still working on the numbers for some of our harder matchups.

Graveyard Hate : I settled for the 2 Tormod's Crypt as my graveyard hoser of choice. Against Reanimator, I can land it before they make me discard and against Lands I can get quite a few cards and easily get it back with Witness.

D&T : I don't know what to do, as I really appreciate having many disenchant effects, but I cannot side in too many cards. If I increase the Dread of Night count, maybe I'm hedging to much for that single matchup? I also want to add a lignify back in the 75 to deal with Sanctum Prelate.

ANT : I feel like having 4-5 cards that prevent their combo is light to really hope to win games 2 and 3. TES is easier to beat though, as they rely on ETW much more.

Burn: Feels hard, just like ANT. I may add a Kitchen Finks back to the 75 to help. I don't like Chill at all.

I changed my extra land in the MD so that my four flex spots are now 1 Carpet of Flowers, 1 Mirri's Guile, 1 Seal of Primordium and 1 Mindbreak Trap.

Here's what my SB looks like today:

2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Duress
1 Flusterstorm
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Dread of Night
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Compost
1 Lignify
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Kitchen Finks

[benthetenor]

I'm trying to avoid the whole "You should just play my 75" because I think there's a lot of merit to what you're doing and thinking. I will say that one way that I've been able to get enough space and versatility out of my sideboard while still being able to play like a bunch of Chill or a specific hate card in numbers (like you would be with your Dread of Night) is to play 2 Carpet of Flowers, 1 Seal of Primordium and 1 Mindbreak Trap in the main deck. That way I've got an easy swap out for whatever I need and I don't have to even have a Carpet of Flowers in the sideboard if I don't want it.

So for your sideboard you've already got a fair number of cards that you'd want for the Daze matchups (Compost for Grixis and Death's Shadow, Kitchen Finks for Grixis, RUG and UR Delver) and not much to take out (pretty much just the Mindbreak Trap), so I'd not even use a sideboard slot on Carpet of Flowers. I do like having access to two in that matchup which is why I'd move it main over Mirri's Guile, but then I never really liked Guile in this deck. If it's working for you I'd keep it, I just feel that it dilutes your ability to run more impactful cards.

I like Tormod's Crypt against Reanimator, and I think your reasoning is sound. One thought I'd had that I might try is a Scavening Ooze. Not because it's better against Reanimator or any deck in particular (it's just different), but because it gives me a decent card against decks that are trying to grind me out (fights Snapcaster Mage, Kolaghan's Command, Delve spells to a lesser extent) while also giving us an out against someone who might try to get us with Surgical Extraction. I see a lot of people who don't have much in their sideboards for us, but pretty much everyone is running 2-3 Surgical Extraction, so I see it coming in a lot against us. I think it's terrible and a waste of a card, but it can also make things annoying and it seems like everyone is making that choice, so having a card I can board in if they go for that plan game 2 that I can find with GSZ seems strong. It is weak to a lot of removal so I'm not saying it's definitely right, just something I want to test. It's an objectively stronger card in our deck than Ground Seal or Wheel of Sun and Moon, that's for sure.

For Burn, I'd just ignore it. I think the one Kitchen Finks is worth playing against every Lighting Bolt deck so you don't have to keep in Mindbreak Trap, and a high-impact card in the burn matchup, I just wouldn't expect to face it more than once in a 15 round tournament so it's probably fine to just dodge. I only have the Chills in the deck because they're randomly good against the other mono-red decks in the format, but I'm not even convinced that they're worth the slots. But I do need something to swap for Carpet of Flowers in the Burn matchup, so that felt better than loading up on Seal of Primordium (which are still fine, just not aces).

For Death and Taxes and ANT I think you have some options. Against Death and Taxes, I completely understand not wanting to take too much out. That's been a battle for me, too. I think you probably have three easy cuts (Carpet, Mirri's Guile, Mindbreak Trap) and then after that you have to start boarding out cards that are still functional-to-good in the matchup. I think Seal of Removal is weaker than Elephant Grass because of Aether Vial, but then if your mana is going to be taxed Elephant Grass can be expensive. But with Dread of Night, I think that you can probably get away with boarding in fewer Disenchants (maybe 2 Dread of Night, 1 Seal of Primordium, with another one if you really want it more than the fourth Seal of Removal), just because there's not a whole lot that they can Vial in that is scary with a Dread of Night on the table. I can understand a desire for Lignify against Sanctum Prelate, but I think that would be over-boarding. For one, if they ever get to activate a Mother of Runes they can just kill your Lignify at no cost. Also, if they put Sanctum Prelate on 1 (most likely) you can win eventually with Words of Wind, and if they put it on 3 you can bounce it with Seal of Removal, so it's very annoying but not quite a hard lock against us. I do still think you want the full 4 Disenchants after sideboard against Chalice decks or Counterbalance, but you can do a lot of work with 2 Seal of Primordium that you keep recycling against Death and Taxes. It's an interesting matchup with a lot of play, I just wouldn't stress out too much if I were you. Dread of Night is going to almost single-handedly win that one.

One other note, I'd also consider going back to the 1 Krosan Grip over a Seal of Primordium. I've had a few occasions where someone has named Seal of Primordium with Pithing Needle/Sorcerous Spyglass/Phyrexian Revoker which stranded some of the cards in my hand. It's functionally the same card in most situations, and it gains a little bit against Counterspells. I'm a big fan of Seal of Primordium, I just think I'll switch back for those reasons.

ANT I think is always going to be poor, and the reason why I'm excited about this deck now is that I haven't seen much of ANT in the big tournaments. It's around, and honestly I think it's still a fine choice, but it is way less popular than it used to be. I think since you're in black I would consider the Leovold + a million Mindbreak Trap plan if you're worried about that deck in particular. Nothing will be a hard lock, but that both helps you against the heavy discard that they will have (some having 4 Duress and 4 Thoughtseize) and messes with their ability to sculpt with Brainstorm and Ponder, while also giving you a high probability to draw into Mindbreak Trap once they've put a lethal Tendrils of Agony on the stack. They can kill Leovold before casting Tendrils of Agony, but they have to have Abrupt Decay or Fatal push in their deck at the time which seems pretty loose against a Mindbreak Trap strategy. Even then you're drawing a card, and if they don't beat you on that turn you can Eternal Witness the Leovold back. Really the only downside to Leovold is that it completely changes the numbers in the sideboard since it's an effective card against almost every deck in the format. You could even run him main-deck and it would be a dead card a very small percentage of the time. But I think you're about as likely to see ANT as Burn, so you should also keep that in mind when picking what matchups to focus on.

I think we're getting close which is exciting since I've got a tournament coming up in October myself. I'm hopeful that things will go well for you in Baltimore. If watching one of the Hatfield brothers on camera at the GP taught me anything it's that Elephant Grass actually is a super strong choice for the metagame right now. It has to be, otherwise I'm not sure how he'd have made day 2 with some of the choices he made.

[Turboninja]

Thank you for your comments. They are very useful in working out the final numbers before Baltimore.

Edit: I understand that presently, combo decks are less prevalent than they were, mostly due to discard spells being so rampant these days. With that in mind, I believe it is necessary to hedge increasingly against discard if we are to survive in this meta.

Ways to beat discard include the following, in no particular order:

- Make your topdecks better (cards that are better on their own / enchantresses)
- Having cards that get better in discard matchups (Compost, Eternal Witness, Deep Analysis, etc.)
- Having cards that prevent discard (Leyline of Sanctity)

Here are my thoughts on theses different strategies:

In the past, I have tried Leyline of Sanctity, which also doubled as a great way to stop burn and Storm. However, I feel like it would be a poor card to side in against Aggro decks with discard. Also, the variance is very high and I do not presently play white, which would mean adding another non basic.

Having 12 enchantresses has worked in the previous meta, but it may be time to bring a 13th one back, like Eidolon of Blossoms. Or add another win con, like Garruk.

Compost and Deep Analysis are both great, and maybe are the way to go.

Eternal Witness should absolutely not be cut in this meta.

That said, I might try to add an Eidolon somewhere in the 75, and maybe change the Lignify for a Deep Analysis.

Any additional thoughts on beating fair discard decks (both Grixis Control and Death's Shadow run ~5-7 in their 75)?

[Turboninja]

I know the card has already been mentioned on this thread, but nonetheless, I'd like to bring the discussion back.

What do you think of Mana Maze as a card to beat Burn and Storm (and bonus points against elves!)? Against Storm, it feels pretty strong, mostly now gitaxian probe is gone. They only have cantrips and artifacts that aren't black, which probably can gain you enough time to get there. Against burn, it's probably not strong enough, but it can sure slow them done if they have a hand full of sorceries or creatures. Against elves! it's a blowout and requires them to get their reclamation sage or bust.

Is this better than discard or counterspells? It has the advantage of being an enchantment which is pretty useful.

Another thought: how would Metamorphic Alteration be? It's a great card to have against Sneak and Show and reanimator, either to copy their threat or to make their threat a 1/1 flying or a 0/1 shroud. It fills the roll of Lignify while also having plenty of marginal advantages, such as making your dryad into another enchantress if you need more draws.

I do not think either of these is worth going in the 75, but maybe I'm missing something to make it tip over.

Edit:
I played some rounds yesterday, here is a quick recap. RD 1 Loss against Elves! Archon of Valor's Reach was hard to beat! RD 2 Loss against Burn. Kitchen Finks was really great here however and almost gave me the win. RD 3 Win against Faerie Ninjastill. Nothing hard here, Elephant Grass and Carpet of Flowers were great. RD 4 Win against D&T. I did not see a single Prelate and I saw plenty of artifact removal!

I'm probably overthinking it these days! Anyway, after some thought, I'm not so sure of the black splash. Duress and Dread of Night do not seem worth a splash. When I had Doomwake, I think it mattered more. To replace it, I've been thinking of trying white again, and adding 2-3 Solitary Confinements. I think our deck can play through the confinement as easily as regular Enchantress, and that card is nuts and can really take away games (such as burn and ANT, but also any non green/white deck). I'll still have to think of something to beat D&T.

Edit number 2:

Myabe Swan Song is the counterspell we need. It does a great impression of Invasive Surgery, while also helping against Sneak Attack and others. The 2/2 will rarely be important in the matchups we bring it in.

What about Lunar Force to replace the Mindbreak Trap in the MD? I serves the same purpose of making sure to close out games, while still being somewhat relevant mid combo.

Here's the baseline for the SB I'm thinking about.

2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Swan Song
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Deep Analysis
1 Eidolong of Blossoms
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Kitchen Finks

[benthetenor]

I think beating fair discard decks is one of the more important things we can do with our SB slots. In theory a deck that draws a million cards should be well positioned against Thoughtseize, though in practice it's pretty easy to get picked apart and lose, so it's worth addressing. In my sideboard I've got 1 Deep Analysis for discard specifically, though I also have some other cards that are helpful for stopping them from grinding. The Garruk is a great card which, as I said before, is really tough for most slow fair decks to deal with in any sort of effective way, and provides an alternate angle of attack which is pretty underrated. It's been really strong and I like the ability to make infinite beasts to close out games if needed, though I rarely go to the trouble unless I've played badly and am in turns. I also have been liking Scavenging Ooze/Relic of Progenitus as anti Snapcaster Mage/Kolaghan's Command/Life from the Loam/Surgical Extraction cards. One is more effective and easier to find (Scavenging Ooze), and one is less fragile and doesn't require leaving mana up (Relic of Progenitus), but both provide the insurance I was looking for against Surgical Extraction while still being good value cards against grindy decks and functioning as a card against Reanimator, though clearly just worse than most of the other options. Also, one card that is pretty clearly broken-in-half in the current metagame (and is specifically great against non-Miracles grindy decks) is Back to Basics. If I were you I would find space for two in your 75. Every time I've played with it it has been nuts.

I do think that Dread of Night may be overkill at this point, but like I said before, I wouldn't fault you for running it. Death and Taxes has pulled back a bit since the first tournaments post-Deathrite Shaman, but it's still a tricky matchup with a lot of play that you will almost certainly face at some point during a 15 round tournament. A lot of doing well in tournament Magic is about picking the matchups you want to crush and then getting lucky enough to not just play against Burn and Storm for 4 rounds before you drop. Sometimes you're going to nail the metagame and crush the tournament, but more often it's about having a reliable plan against every deck you will reasonably face and just choosing to lose to a small number of less-played decks. That's why I'm more worried about Sneak and Show or Reanimator than Storm or Elves, or Death's Shadow instead of Burn, even though those matchups are way better, I'd rather just lose to Storm and Burn and make Reanimator 55/45 if given the choice since I'm way more likely to face that matchup. I'd rather play Dread of Night than Chill generally speaking, even though I think Death and Taxes is closer to even and Burn is pretty bad, but I'd be surprised to see Burn whereas I'd be surprised to not see Death and Taxes. There are other considerations (like not wanting to splash a third color...), but that's my philosophy with building sideboards, and I think it's doubly important with this deck since there are a lot of matchups that you couldn't flip even with 12 cards. I just embrace that, rather than pulling my hair out trying to fix a 20/80 matchup like Storm.

I don't mind Eidolon of Blossoms, particularly since it turns Green Sun's Zenith into a draw spell, but it will always be the most fragile of our Enchantress effects. My gut tells me if you want it, it's probably main, but then it's definitely going to be better in sideboard games where the opponent should be trimming some of their Fatal Pushes and Lightning Bolts, so maybe out of the sideboard makes the most sense. For my money, I'd rather play Garruk and Deep Analysis (probably even a second Deep Analysis before Eidolon), but I think Eidolon of Blossoms is a legitimate card if you like it. Or if you are considering white, play 1-2 Replenish. It is a huge bomb against grindy decks completely negating their entire gameplan. Replenish also happens to be nuts with Eidolon in play, so there's that. I would almost splash white for Replenish alone, though I think Deep Analysis is more reliable, even if it's not hilarious like Replenish.

For other white cards, I think Solitary Confinement has more application than Leyline of Sanctity, which I've also played in the past and found to be just okay. It does really destroy Burn which feels really good when you play against them, I just don't think it's worth 4 slots because, as you said, you probably don't want it against the fair discard decks, and while it isn't terrible against Storm, it's not lights out. I also liked it more when Liliana of the Veil was the Liliana of choice, since in those days it was a great card against Jund since it was immune to Abrupt Decay. With the new Abrupt Decay coming out, I'm a little more hesitant to make "costs >3" a huge selling point until some of the hype dies down and we know exactly how much people really want to play that card. I haven't ever used Solitary Confinement in this deck, just because this deck is way more of a combo deck with prison elements, rather than a prison deck with a combo finish. It's a subtle distinction, I've just never seriously considered Solitary Confinement for that reason but I think it could be worth playing since it has text against most of the decks in the format. If you end up playing white, Gaddock Teeg is too good not to play.

I'm not sure I like a lot of these other ideas. I'd seen Lunar Force, but my first impression was that just countering the first spell is way, way worse than being able to tag anything after the second spell. They have different weaknesses, I just see my Storm opponent playing a spare Lotus Petal, getting it countered (and getting the storm count), and then going off as usual. I don't think Mana Maze does much in the traditional combo matchups, either. It's great against Elves and Burn (though maybe only as good as Chill), and it's good against Omnishow (while probably being a blank against more traditional Sneak and Show), but against Storm it's been pretty soft in the past. In practice, it's not hard for them to weave in Lotus Petals and Ponders between their Dark Rituals, so while it makes them have to think more, it's not actually much of a stopper. In the Eye of Chaos has usually just been much better if you're thinking about beating Storm, and it's also strong against control decks and other blue-based combo decks. I do like that Mana Maze costs less, but in this deck costing 2 or costing 3 doesn't really make a difference in how quickly you can deploy it. And there's always the fact that Mana Maze can make for awkwardness on our side when going off, though probably a lot like any of the other anti-combo permanents like Sphere of Resistance or Arcane Laboratory, you'd just bounce or kill it when you're ready to go off and then replay it at the end of your turn. But that's a terrible plan against Burn.

I think Swan Song is also a legitimate card, though in my sideboard building I try to avoid cards that require mana being kept up on the opponent's turn wherever possible. So I'm down to just one Envelop effect, and even that's only there because it counts as a Reanimator card and a Storm card and a Miracles card (in a pinch). If you like Swan Song more than Invasive Surgery, then that's cool, though I prefer the narrowness since I don't want to board it in against the whole format and being more restrictive/powerful out of the sideboard keeps me from developing poor habits and overboarding. Which is probably a terrible excuse, but it seems to work for me. I'd still only play one if I were you, and get the rest of your edge from more targeted cards. As bad as some matchups may feel, I think the biggest discipline of this deck is restricting yourself to 3-4 cards in the sideboard for most matchups, since otherwise you're taking out functional cards or even good cards for good cards and just wasting space. I'd rather have Elephant Grass over Swan Song against Reanimator, for instance, or Seal of Primordium against Sneak and Show since it has more utility elsewhere.

I had not seen Metamorphic Alteration before; that card does look like Lignify with upside, as you say. There is the fact that Lignify is green, so it's theoretically easier to cast, and you also don't have to have another creature in play when you cast it, but I think on the balance that's a pretty good upgrade. It's such a marginal slot that it probably doesn't matter much, but it's probably good enough to make the cut.

One last thought, if you're worried about Elves: one of the best cards against them is Cursed Totem. It was a better card when everyone was playing Deathrite Shaman, but it completely hoses Elves and the only thing it does against us is stop us from cycling Cloud of Faeries. I've personally found Mindbreak Trap + Invasive Surgery to be enough SB cards for that matchup, but it is an option if you're worried about it.

[Turboninja]

Spoiler:

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/939/200/283/636724677556511461.png

This card looks perfect for our deck, joining Reclamation Sage and Infinite Life in a single card. I believe it could come MD simply due to its versatility. It also convinces me to play white.

As for your comments, I agree with most of what you say concerning the fringe cards I proposed. I will give Confinement a shot in Baltimore and report back.

[benthetenor]

Geez, that is a good card for us. Though for a second I thought he said "Put two +1/+1 counters on any creature you control" which would have been absolutely insane. But as is, it condenses one spot for us, at the cost of splashing white (if not already). It will eat a Lightning Bolt out of Burn (so it's worth like 2+ burn spells) and it probably won't stick around to block, but it can also 2-for-1 burn if they have Eidolon or Pyrostatic Pillar in play. My current plan is to bring in a good number of Disenchants in that matchup anyway, since Eidolon is real bad for us and they sometimes have other targets, so it's not like the functionality isn't there in that matchup, but it's nice to be on one card. Really, I see this as being just generally bad for Burn, since most decks that would have played a Reclamation Sage now have incidental hate for burn. I think that against that matchup specifically, Kitchen Finks is still slightly better since it is a better blocker, but probably not better than just gaining a sideboard slot for free. Sweet card.

[kombatkiwi]

One last thought, if you're worried about Elves: one of the best cards against them is Cursed Totem. It was a better card when everyone was playing Deathrite Shaman, but it completely hoses Elves and the only thing it does against us is stop us from cycling Cloud of Faeries. I've personally found Mindbreak Trap + Invasive Surgery to be enough SB cards for that matchup, but it is an option if you're worried about it.

Cursed Totem only blocks activated abilities of creatures on the battlefield

[benthetenor]

That's very interesting, you are totally right. I would have thought "activated abilities" was universal, though I guess when it was printed virtually every creature activated ability only existed when the creature was in play. Even better!

Though it should be noted, Cursed Totem will shut off Dryad Arbor if you're running that. I forgot to mention that, though again, it's not really a deal breaker, more of a thing to keep in mind so you don't forget during a tournament and get DQ'ed for cheating.

[benthetenor]

dredge90's Lotus Petal got me thinking, so I ran a league with a bunch of those in place of lands, sort of to get a feel for it vs. where I would have had Chrome Mox in some of my older builds. The short answer is that while the lesser card disadvantage is good, it's probably still just worse than Chrome Mox since going turn 1 Enchantress doesn't do a whole lot when you've only got 2 mana at most on turn 2. I did really miss how the deck runs when some number of your lands are Moxes which can often make a huge difference when you're going off on thin margins (and which the Lotus Petal did even better than Chrome Mox), so that may still be worth looking at. For this experiment, I decided that the consistency that you get with Dryad Arbor is probably just better than playing with Lotus Petal, but I am interested in Chrome Mox again for sure. Went 4-1, lost to Storm (duh), so it didn't destroy the deck, it just made things feel a lot less smooth.

I also ultimately think that running Mox vs Dryad Arbor is largely going to be up to preference, since both have times and places where they are superior but neither is just clearly better all the time. I know when Cuneo was developing the deck he had both cards in place at various times (though the most I'd ever seen him run is 1 Chrome Mox, which always felt kind of random to me). When you draw the Dryad Arbor it feels terrible, whereas when you draw the Mox it's usually great, but then Dryad Arbor has an outsized effect, since running just 1 gives you 4 more accelerants in the deck. The Dryad Arbor feels more stable, whereas the Chrome Mox gets you on the board faster (turn 1 Argothian Enchantress is super awesome) and helps keep things turning when you're going off, but then when you're going off you're usually winning anyway. It's a tough call, just depends on what you like I think.

[Turboninja]

I played the deck at SCG Baltimore to a 4-4 finish. 4-3 on the Classic.


The deck ran great and I will write a proper report when I have time. I had great matchups and should have gotten a better score. However, Dryad Arbor was hellbent on making me lose and was in my opening seven 12 times over the week-end. I lost to Bryant Cook, Michael Keller and Jody Keith. At least I had a blast!

[Michael Keller]

I played the deck at SCG Baltimore to a 4-4 finish. 4-3 on the Classic.


The deck ran great and I will write a proper report when I have time. I had great matchups and should have gotten a better score. However, Dryad Arbor was hellbent on making me lose and was in my opening seven 12 times over the week-end. I lost to Bryant Cook, Michael Keller and Jody Keith. At least I had a blast!

But you also sold me on Enchantress for EW in the process. If D/T, Death’s Shadow and Grixis are the major players right now - Enchantress should own those MUs, depending on the build. I Day 2ed w/Grixis and faced Enchantress twice. I won both times, but felt lucky in the process because I knew how hard the MU is.

[benthetenor]

I played the deck at SCG Baltimore to a 4-4 finish. 4-3 on the Classic.


The deck ran great and I will write a proper report when I have time. I had great matchups and should have gotten a better score. However, Dryad Arbor was hellbent on making me lose and was in my opening seven 12 times over the week-end. I lost to Bryant Cook, Michael Keller and Jody Keith. At least I had a blast!

I figured that was likely the case since only one Enchantress list made it to Day 2, though I was hopeful it was you! But oh well, I'd be interested to hear how you felt about your matchups and deck performance during the weekend, along with what tweaks you ended up settling on. My tournament is next weekend, and I'm probably about 99% settled, though I'm still weighing a light black splash (mostly Leovold, could be other stuff) or just sticking with UG, and narrowing down the final 1-2 SB slots. Traditionally, my meta seems to be heavy on Dredge, and also it seems like I can't play a large tournament without running into Burn and Elves, though I haven't seen Elves almost at all since the format changed and I'm probably just ignoring Burn as my general strategy. I think almost no matter what my choices, I'll have a strong game against Miracles, Grixis Control and Death's Shadow, which should be the top 3 played decks, and I like my choices/chances against some of the other slightly-less played ones like Death and Taxes and Eldrazi.

I did some testing this week against 4c Loam which was tricky. The deck is very mutable depending on how the opponent wants to play the game, though it looks very difficult for most players to pilot well. But the disenchants + card advantage cards in the sideboard performed well in those games.

[Turboninja]

Jody Keith liked playing against our deck at Baltimore and decided to stream my decklist on Friday (with some minor tweaks to my list : -1 Seal of Primordium MD, +1 Ground Seal MD, -1 Rec Sage SB, +1 Ground Seal SB).
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/315820002

He explains the deck pretty well at the beginning. It's his first attempt to playing the deck and goes 2-3.

I'm pretty happy that people are interested in the deck. It feels well positioned.

Thanks Jody!


But you also sold me on Enchantress for EW in the process. If D/T, Death’s Shadow and Grixis are the major players right now - Enchantress should own those MUs, depending on the build. I Day 2ed w/Grixis and faced Enchantress twice. I won both times, but felt lucky in the process because I knew how hard the MU is.

Glad you had fun. Thanks for the games and the tips!

[benthetenor]

Jody Keith liked playing against our deck at Baltimore and decided to stream my decklist on Friday (with some minor tweaks to my list : -1 Seal of Primordium MD, +1 Ground Seal MD, -1 Rec Sage SB, +1 Ground Seal SB).
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/315820002

He explains the deck pretty well at the beginning. It's his first attempt to playing the deck and goes 2-3.

I'm pretty happy that people are interested in the deck. It feels well positioned.

Thanks Jody!

That's sweet! Definitely some rough plays (there were about a dozen different times when I was screaming at the computer for him to cycle his Cloud of Faeries, but he played a lot better in the later games), but it's fun to watch people scooping. Rough sideboarding, too, but seeing as how he literally just picked up the deck and started streaming, that's pretty forgivable. 2 Ground Seal between main deck and sideboard is a lot, I guess he's terrified of Surgical Extraction? I don't think I've ever actually lost a game to that card, but I can see how it could be scary if you've never played the deck before. But he seems like a super chill guy, glad to see some exposure!

[Turboninja]

Ok, I finally have some time to report in detail. Concerning Ground Seal, I actually told Jody I would add in a couple in the 75 to hedge against Surgicals, after my 15 rounds at Baltimore. You'll understand after the report.

My list on both days:

4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
7 Forest
2 Island

Creatures:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Cloud of Faeries
2 Eternal Witness

Spells:
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Seal of Removal
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Words of Wind
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Living Wish

SB:
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Carpet of Flowers
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Karakas
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Swan Song
1 Eidolon of Blossoms

Rd 1, against Abe on Grixis Control. 0-2 [0-1].
I'm on the play and lose to Hymn to tourachs, md edict and force of will all making sure I never keep an enchantress alive. Game two, I also lose, but my notes are blank and I do not remember what happened. It's okay, on the round 2.

Rd 2, against Dylan on Canadian Thresh. 2-1 [1-1].
I'm on the draw and easily pull through with the engine. His Goyfs aren't nearly fast enough to matter. On game 2, he lands an early Delver and has the Dazes and stifle to back it up and make it too quick for me. On game 3, I grind him out as I did in game 2. Elephant Grass is good in the matchup.

Rd 3, against James on Death's Shadow. 2-0 [2-1].
I'm on the draw and it's a slow game. He counters a couple enchantresses. I eventually Wish for Eidolon and win from there. I win game two without problem. Things just roll out properly.

Rd 4, against Sam on Miracles. 1-2 [2-2].
First and foremost, I should have won this round. It was meant to be won. I easily take game one on the play. On to game two (side in Nissa and Eidolon, side out carpet and wish), where I keep a slow hand. It's usually good against Miracles. I manage to get argothians on the board and draw half a dozen cards, but all lands. He eventually gets terminus. I get a presence, which he disenchants and drops a counterbalance. He blind flips three out of three, including against my seal of primordium. Jace gets there. I begin round 3 on the draw, mull to 5 because of dryad and a no-lander. I keep another slow hand looking at his turn three mentor. I cannot get there quick enough as he counters my first 2 enchantresses. I feel like the matchup is incredibly favored. Can'T win them all!

Rd 5, against Adonnis on Grixis Control. 2-1 [3.2].
I win game one on the play, with so many enchantresses that his grind finds its match. He also drew a couple Baleful Strixes which are completely helpless against us. Game 2, he gets the appropriate discard magic and edict effects to quickly run out Gurmag. He counters and surgicals the Grass and wins. Game 3, I win by again overloading him with card advantage. When the engine gets going, they have such a hard time catching up.

Rd 6, against Michael Keller on Grixis Control. 1-2 [3-3].
I'm on the draw, after a mull to 5. I get hymned early on, but cast a green sun's zenith which gets me my first enchantress. I win from there. Game 2, I mull to 5 again and get locked out by 2 timely surgicals on both enchantresses. Game three, on the play mull to 6, it's a race. I try to get my engine to stay put on the battelfield, while he digs for the surgicals to exile them. He does it again!
I had some bad luck there with my starting hands. I only mull if there's no green land or enchantress in hand.

Rd 7, against Alex on Eldrazi Post. 2-0 [4-3].
Feels like a walk in the park. Both games went very quickly. I had early enchantresses with fast cloud of faeries mana in both games and comboed off on turns 4 and 5 respectively. Having 2 md seal of primordium feels very good.

Rd 8, against Corey on UW Delverblade. 1-2 [4-4].
I start game 1 on the draw with a mull to 5. I go on to lose that game against TNN beats, but it actually is very close! Game 2, I win with Nissa as an additional hay maker. Game 3 I mull to 6. The game is very close. He drops and flips a turn 1 delver. I play a turn 1 elephant grass to allow me to put lands into play without pressure. I almost get there, but Force of Will and Disenchants ruin my day. Day 2 was for x-3, so I call it a day.

Legacy Classic:
Same decklist. I really liked how it played out, i felt like those games were robbed from the unlucky starting hands. I didn't track mulligans in the first 3 rounds, but I got a couple in there as well.

Rd 1, against Justin on UBg Shadow. 1-2 [0-1].
Game 1 feels like a bye. Good start to that day. However, in both games 2 and 3, he gets early discard into surgical, with delver beats. Damn! Decay on Grass put the nail in the coffin.

Rd 2, against Jody Keith on Lands. 0-2 [0-2].
Game 1 on the draw, I keep a hand that has limited mana sources. He gets his wasteland, ghost quarter and rishadan port plan going and I fail to play anything relevant until he gets the Lage into play. Game 2, I mull to 6 after seeing my wonderful dryad. I keep a hand that also has slow mana. He plays an early chalice off of mox diamond. I play a seal and destroy the mox. He then draws a couple Gambles and Crop Rotations while I try drawing a seal of removal to deal with his Tireless Tracker. He eventually runs me over with tracker, backed up with port again. Hard times! I actually have a lot of experience in the matchup and it feels good. However, make sure to have many mana sources in the matchup!

Rd 3, against Bryant Cook on TES. 0-2 [0-2].
Game 1 on the play, mull to 6. I play a turn 1 elephant grass to help me draw cards and play lands. However, he has a land heavy land and just plays land drops while I do nothing. He eventually tendrills for a million. Game 2, mull to 6. I get a Swan song and counter a burning wish. I eventually Witness the Song back to my hand. However, he has plenty of time to sculpt his hand and goes off even through my swan song. He shows me an echoing truth in hand, meaning confinement would not have been enough! I think that the best strategy here is to dodge matchup. We talked about it in the past, but I'm now confident it's our best bet. Even if we increase our odds to 55% on games 2 and 3, it's not worth it.

Rd 4, against Liam on Dredge. 2-0 [1-3].
Okay, here's an easy matchup. Elephant grass and seal of removal are great here. I win both games pretty easily.

Rd 5, against Lyle on Grixis Control. 2-0 [2-3].
Both games are pretty easy, where my opponent gets baleful strixes and no surgicals (2nd game). If they can't disrupt us early out of enchantresses, we overcome anything they get.

Rd 6, against Gabriel on UW Delverblade. 2-1 [3-3].
I win game one as it always should be against that type of deck. So much card draw makes it hard for them to even have a chance. I get dryad in game 2 in my hand and mull to 6. It's a tight race, but his delvers get there. Game 3, he gets double delver which is pretty hard. I eventually land a Words of Wind and bounce his permanents over 2 turns the old fashion way. I win this by a hair! He had surgicaled one of my enchantresses.

Rd 7, against YongJi on Grixis Control. 2-1 [4-3].
I lose game one from a mull to 6. The game plays out wierd and I am surprised to die so quickly from gurmag. Game two is won with words of wind bounce, without the whole combo. Game 3 is won using Nissa after he surgicaled my Enchantress.


Overall feel: the deck is very strong in the current meta. I had looked at my sideboarding strategy and noticed that Seal of primordium often came in, which is why I brought one more from the sideboard to the main deck. What I would do differently now: move the carpet to the sideboard. That card is only good against mana denial strategies (i.e. Delver). Against other blue decks, I rather have more impactful cards like Nissa and Eidolon.

#1 Wish is much better than Mindbreak Trap. The trap is rarely useful, even if sometimes we have a luck one. The wish allows the same inevitability as Trap does. We get the finks and gain infinite life. Usually it's enough!
#2 Eidolon is a must have in this meta. Either MD or SB with wish. With all the discard, we must have better topdecks. Eidolon is pretty good, drawing you a card when you GSZ it.
#3 Nissa is awesome. Like Garruk, she can be a win con when we go to time. However, unlike Garruk, she can go off the turn we combo, so long as we haven't attacked. We untap each land one by one and make them 5/5 haste creatures! She also helps in the combo, either by getting an enchantress back or untapping lands. She kills Jace easily. I brought her in against most blue matchups to also hedge against Surgical.
#4 Confinement was never cool. I thought I'd like it against Grixis, but even if they cannot remove it, I still cannot win if somehow they surgical my words of win or my green sun's zenith (to avoid decking). Apart from TES, I did not play any matchups where it was necessary. I will have to think about their pertinence some more.
#5 Swan song is good. These help our Elves!, Eldrazi Post, Sneak and Show matchups. I feel like the raw power on that card should not be underestimated.
#6 Dryad is mandatory to fetch against edict effects, or eot to attack Jace, or to ramp if you have lots of enchantresses. However, I hate that little dude in my opening 7.

Surgical is strong against us. I do not think Relic is the way to go. Ground Seal is okay, and doubles as a win con with words of winds, bouncing itself over and over. Maybe Rest in Peace would be stronger though?

How do you like Enchanted Island as a name for the deck? That's how I named it when I presented it to Jody and he advertised it as such! I don't like being assimilated to Enchantress, as the two decks are very different. Anyway, it doesn't matter much does it? :)

[benthetenor]

I think that I've come to the same conclusion about Seal of Primordium; Chalice decks are prevalent enough that it's now common to face Chalice for 1 in the first game, and while I usually don't have a huge problem beating that by just cycling 1-mana enchantments until I can find the Seal of Primordium, having a second one would make that situation a lot simpler and reduce the chances of decking while trying to answer it.

For Eidolon, if you like him I think he's a fine choice, though I'd rather have him main than the sideboard. Usually for me I find that just GSZ for Eternal Witness is a great plan for grinding through discard game 1, but I might be playing things slightly differently than you (holding more enchantments or something), making that a more functional plan. I don't really like the idea of turning on their otherwise dead Fatal Pushes and Lightning Bolts, particular when we're talking about an enchantress effect, but the fact that you draw a card when it comes into play negates that issue to a degree. That's just me. I used to play with a Verduran Enchantress to wish for before Eidolon existed, and it was always pretty poor for me, outside of letting me play around Surgical Extraction or turn Living Wish into an actual card that mattered. I think that Eidolon is an upgrade in that case, just a little slower. I've always been kind of meh on Living Wish, just because I don't like giving up the extra SB slot, but it's functional if you like it.

I can see why you'd want a Ground Seal, given that set of circumstances. I do think if you're on white and your plan is Ground Seal, you probably do just want to be playing Rest in Peace. I think Eternal Witness is worth more in most matchups than shutting him off as a proactive plan against Surgical Extraction (which is why I like Relic or Scavenging Ooze better, since it doesn't completely hose Eternal Witness) since otherwise you just scoop to two counterspells on Words of Wind, but Rest in Peace is a much stronger card than Ground Seal. If you were just UG then Ground Seal would be your strongest answer. There are ways to get your Eternal Witness back off of Ground Seal with Words of Wind or Seal of Primordium, but that seems pretty cutesy to me and could open up windows for Surgical Extraction to actually do something, which would negate the whole purpose of the card in the first place.

Side note for playing around Surgical Extraction: this is probably obvious, but Surgical Extraction doesn't get cards in play. If you can resolve any of the cards that matter, particularly early, you can greatly diminish the power of Surgical Extraction. Even having one Cloud of Faeries in play when they go to SE the rest of them can be enough to keep the combo intact. I also do find that just having a Plainswalker in the deck at that point makes it so that you're not just stone dead to SE, almost making me think that a second Garruk would be worth more than something like Relic of Progenitus.

For Dryad Arbor, you take the good with the bad, obviously. It's strong for all of the reasons you mentioned, and it's terrible in the opening hand. I will say that sometimes it's worth it to just play it out on turn 1 (if you have Argothian Enchantress in hand or something), or if you manage to draw other lands it's usually fine turn 3 or 4 if you have enough other mana going with Wild Growth effects. There are definitely times when it feels bad, but it's also functionally not worse most of the time than just playing a single tap land or something like that. Which is certainly not great in Legacy, but it hasn't been back-breaking. I think I mulligan more aggressively than you, though that's more art a lot of the times than science. I will always mulligan a hand with no Enchantresses (or lands, obviously), and I will usually mulligan a hand with no accelerants unless I know it's going to be a grindy matchup. I am also a lot more aggressive in my mulliganing on the draw vs on the play, since the tempo loss means we are pretty far behind to begin with, so a stronger opening hand is necessary. The scry 1 helps a lot, along with having so much card draw. I do feel like having an additional land could be beneficial sometimes, though it hasn't been so much of a problem as to make me want to do that.

Nissa is interesting, though I will say I usually just ignore opposing Jaces almost entirely. None of the modes (on Jace) are particularly threatening unless you're deck isn't functioning, and if that's the case then they can probably beat you with just about anything. I regularly out-draw Jace with this deck, so most of the time I will just use that window when they've tapped out to land another Enchantress and draw a few more cards. It doesn't work every time, clearly, but it hasn't been so much of an issue. I'd also rather not get my lands Terminus-ed away to the point where I sometimes side out Dryad Arbor against any deck with sweepers, though it's not a huge deal even then, most of the time.

Thanks for the report! I think there are a lot of games in there where you probably weren't in a good position to win even against good matchups, so that kind of sucks, but like you said, can't win them all. Even an 80/20 matchup means you should lose once every five matches, but the flipside is that it means sometimes you just luck out against Storm. I'm excited to incorporate this feedback into my tournament this weekend!

[benthetenor]

I played in my tournament yesterday, ended up missing everything at 5-3. My list was:

7 Forest
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Cloud of Faeries
2 Eternal Witness

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Seal of Removal
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Seal of Primordium
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Words of Wind
1 Mindbreak Trap

SB:
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Lignify
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Envelop
2 Back to Basics
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

I beat (in no particular order) Goblins, Death and Taxes, Death's Shadow and Sneak and Show twice, and lost to Turbo Depths, UW Standstill and Grixis Delver. I'm sure I made a lot of mistakes in my wins, but I remember the losses much more clearly and there weren't too many mistakes there. My draw against the Standstill guy was about the best I could reasonably expect, with me casting an enchantress or plainswalker or Leovold every turn four turns in a row both games, but he had a counterspell or Council's Judgement (+ Snapcaster Mage) for each play. Against Grixis Delver I played around Daze on the first turn of game 3 and got punished with Thoughtseize taking my Carpet of Flowers. It seemed like a good call in the moment, but reflecting on it, it's maybe more likely he would have Thoughtseize in the sideboarded games than Daze. Maybe it was still right since he was on the play, but he got me there. Turbo Depths had to have three answers (Pithing Needle on 2 Seal of Removal, a discard spell taking Back to Basics and an Assassin's Trophy on Elephant Grass) plus the combo all by turn 4 to beat me in the third game. I'm not 100% sure if Back to Basics was right there, and Pithing Needle got me good, so maybe having more Disenchants (I had 2 still) would have been better, but he told me he had 4 Assassin's Trophy main and some Abrupt Decay in the sideboard, so that answered my question about how played that card would be this weekend. Back to Basics would have bought me the turn I needed to go off had I been able to land it, and if it were Seal of Primordium instead he would have just taken my Enchantress with the discard spell, so likely there was nothing I could have done differently.

I don't know if this is the right deck for a long tournament just because not playing Brainstorm + Ponder puts us at a huge disadvantage to variance over the course of 8-15 rounds. Or rather, it handicaps our ability to manage variance in a way that a lot of the other decks in Legacy don't have to deal with. I feel like in a lot of my wins I was drawing pretty well, and a lot of my game losses were either the opponent being able to sculpt well or me mulliganing more than the opponent. I think the deck mulligans well and can recover very well if we can stick an enchantress, but it's still not great to be down a card or two more than the opponent in every set of three games, and I don't think there's really a way around that given the constraints of Enchantress.

Back to Basics was the best card in the deck in a lot of matchups, and it wasn't particularly close. I won every game that it resolved. I was testing it main in place of one of the Seal of Primordium and the Carpet of Flowers, but I decided that I'd rather have the second Seal main to help against Chalice decks game 1, which I actually didn't see this tournament. They were in the room, I just didn't face them. I brought Back to Basics in against Goblins, Death and Taxes, Grixis Delver, Death's Shadow and Turbo Depths. Miracles is probably a better Back to Basics deck just because it can find it (or avoid it) more consistently, but it was really good here and I wouldn't play this deck without them, at least in the sideboard.

The splash for Leovold wasn't relevant in my matchups, but it was mostly for combo decks. It didn't show up against Sneak and Show and just got countered against Standstill. It would have been a lot better as Deep Analysis given what I faced, but there's no way I could have guessed that I'd go against Standstill. The theory was to act as a better Compost against the grindy decks that also happened to be a huge part of beating Storm, but I didn't face Storm so it under-performed. I ended up using about half of my sideboard cards since I didn't face any graveyard or Storm decks, but I don't know that it would be right to change things around just because of that. The 4 Disenchants between main and side worked overtime, and the Back to Basics and Garruks were great, though I consistently finished my rounds with 10-20 minutes to spare so I never had to make infinite beasts. Didn't see a single Surgical Extraction either, though I'd guess it did get boarded in against me for at least the Death's Shadow matchup. Seal of Removal and Elephant Grass were all-stars like I thought they would be in this metagame, but it just wasn't enough to beat out variance this time.

I don't know if I'll keep playing this deck since I pretty much only get to play in large tournaments and I don't think it's well-suited for that. I got mostly good matchups (in theory) but it wasn't enough. Which is more of a feel thing; obviously I could have won even one more game and done much better, but that would of course have changed every other game I played and I felt lucky to win a few of my other ones so on the balance I think that 5-3 is about what I'd expect. I lost to a deck that leans entirely on Dark Depths and to a Delver deck, both of which I should have crushed, so it probably all evens out. Unfortunately in tournament Magic the difference between 5-3 and 6-2 (or 6-1-1) is the difference between winning thousands of dollars and going home with nothing, so I think beating variance might be the single most important aspect of a good tournament deck. I think this is still viable for spiking a shorter tournament, like a 4-6 round LGS or something like it, but asking much more than that from it is ambitious.

[Turboninja]

Good job on your finish! I tend to agree with your analysis on variance, I have felt the same way about the deck. However, I think we just need to keep on bringing it to such tournaments to eventually run hot and take down one of them. The deck has the power to do this.

For the time being though, I have no big tournament coming and will probably also try out other decks.

Thanks for the insight over the past weeks and good luck to you!

I will keep on following any developments on the decks :)

[HouseOfCards]

Now that Estrid's Invocation is a thing, Has anyone tried fitting it into a words of wind enchantress shell? If so, please share your experiences with as much detail as possible.

[benthetenor]

Now that Estrid's Invocation is a thing, Has anyone tried fitting it into a words of wind enchantress shell? If so, please share your experiences with as much detail as possible.

I don't like it, though there are some guys who have tried it and apparently they think it's the best thing ever. For me, I don't think this deck needs a fifth or sixth copy of anything that's not an enchantress, and we're already playing 12 or more of those. They've managed to fit it in by shaving (or completely cutting) Green Sun's Zenith, which I think is a really poor decision, but I don't know what else you'd realistically cut. I wouldn't be comfortable without at least one Seal of Primordium in the deck at all times, as well as one Mindbreak Trap/Kitchen Finks/thing that ensures that you don't lose games after you've gone off, so that really just leaves like two slots that are reasonably flexible. I think a Carpet of Flowers or Back to Basics are better cards to have in the deck than that card, since by definition Estrid's Invocation doesn't do anything you're not already doing so it can't help you pull out of a bad situation. If the first Elephant Grass isn't helping, the second one (for three mana) is probably not going to help much either.

Now, in the deck that uses it, they've also included other cards that I think are pretty bad in this deck that work well with Estrid's Invocation. They've got enchantments that cantrip when the enter the battlefield (Abundant Growth, Ground Seal) so that, at worst, the Invocation will draw you a card every turn, and they're playing Solitary Confinement so that you can buy an extra turn sometimes. That's more of an engine that you build around, rather than a piece you try to put into an otherwise functioning deck. I think it's cute, but probably not better than just playing Green Sun's Zenith and Seal of Removal. Your enchantments already cantrip if things are going to plan, and if things are not going to plan, again, Estrid's Invocation or Abundant Growth aren't exactly going to help you out. I'd rather play Eternal Witness every day of the week, for example, since it's so much better at clogging up the board and rebuying something that the opponent has dealt with, making it a much higher-impact play, and being able to turn your Green Sun's Zeniths into Regrowths is extremely good.

[HouseOfCards]

I don't like it, though there are some guys who have tried it and apparently they think it's the best thing ever. For me, I don't think this deck needs a fifth or sixth copy of anything that's not an enchantress, and we're already playing 12 or more of those. They've managed to fit it in by shaving (or completely cutting) Green Sun's Zenith, which I think is a really poor decision, but I don't know what else you'd realistically cut. I wouldn't be comfortable without at least one Seal of Primordium in the deck at all times, as well as one Mindbreak Trap/Kitchen Finks/thing that ensures that you don't lose games after you've gone off, so that really just leaves like two slots that are reasonably flexible. I think a Carpet of Flowers or Back to Basics are better cards to have in the deck than that card, since by definition Estrid's Invocation doesn't do anything you're not already doing so it can't help you pull out of a bad situation. If the first Elephant Grass isn't helping, the second one (for three mana) is probably not going to help much either.

Now, in the deck that uses it, they've also included other cards that I think are pretty bad in this deck that work well with Estrid's Invocation. They've got enchantments that cantrip when the enter the battlefield (Abundant Growth, Ground Seal) so that, at worst, the Invocation will draw you a card every turn, and they're playing Solitary Confinement so that you can buy an extra turn sometimes. That's more of an engine that you build around, rather than a piece you try to put into an otherwise functioning deck. I think it's cute, but probably not better than just playing Green Sun's Zenith and Seal of Removal. Your enchantments already cantrip if things are going to plan, and if things are not going to plan, again, Estrid's Invocation or Abundant Growth aren't exactly going to help you out. I'd rather play Eternal Witness every day of the week, for example, since it's so much better at clogging up the board and rebuying something that the opponent has dealt with, making it a much higher-impact play, and being able to turn your Green Sun's Zeniths into Regrowths is extremely good.

Thank you for your insights mate. I'm pretty new to the idea of u/g enchantress but it's hard for me to decide between the engine version or the cloud of faeries version. I really like how the cloud of faeries version has an easier time vs daze. I also like how vs decks without daze, you could ramp up to 4 mana quickly on t2. I know I want to use words of wind. I like back to basics. I also like, dare I say it, Parallax Tide in this type of deck. Tide would also be great with invocation too lol. I think I need to sleeve up both decks and play 50-100 games with both against the meta to get a feeling for how they each play, what their weaknesses/strengths are and to see how much room there is for deviation. I regularly play g/w/x enchantress but when I saw estrid's invocation get printed I went out and bought a bunch of u/g og foil stuff because it looks like a blast to play. I'll probably chime in on the thread from time to time sharing my experiences/thoughts on the u/g variations.

[Turboninja]

Thank you for your insights mate. I'm pretty new to the idea of u/g enchantress but it's hard for me to decide between the engine version or the cloud of faeries version. I really like how the cloud of faeries version has an easier time vs daze. I also like how vs decks without daze, you could ramp up to 4 mana quickly on t2. I know I want to use words of wind. I like back to basics. I also like, dare I say it, Parallax Tide in this type of deck. Tide would also be great with invocation too lol. I think I need to sleeve up both decks and play 50-100 games with both against the meta to get a feeling for how they each play, what their weaknesses/strengths are and to see how much room there is for deviation. I regularly play g/w/x enchantress but when I saw estrid's invocation get printed I went out and bought a bunch of u/g og foil stuff because it looks like a blast to play. I'll probably chime in on the thread from time to time sharing my experiences/thoughts on the u/g variations.

It'll be great hearing from your testing!

[Broseph]

https://deck.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/89662/show/

Tamura Tetsu, 晴れる屋チームレガシー杯 - 2012-09-17


Mainboard (60)

Lands(20)

1《Flooded Strand》
6《Forest》
1《Horizon Canopy》
2《Island》
4《Misty Rainforest》
3《Plains》
1《Serra's Sanctum》
1《Tundra》
1《Windswept Heath》

Creatures(6)

3《Argothian Enchantress》
3《Cloud of Faeries》

Spells(34)

2《Enlightened Tutor》
4《Living Wish》
1《Back to Basics》
2《Elephant Grass》
4《Enchantress's Presence》
1《Ground Seal》
2《Mirri's Guile》
1《Oblivion Ring》
2《Seal of Removal》
2《Solitary Confinement》
2《Sterling Grove》
4《Utopia Sprawl》
4《Wild Growth》
2《Words of Wind》
1《Cloudstone Curio》


Sideboard (15)

1《Serra's Sanctum》
1《Argothian Enchantress》
1《Cloud of Faeries》
1《Emrakul, the Aeons Torn》
1《Gaddock Teeg》
1《Gilded Drake》
1《Phyrexian Revoker》
1《Replenish》
1《Back to Basics》
1《Carpet of Flowers》
1《City of Solitude》
1《Energy Flux》
1《Karmic Justice》
1《Stony Silence》
1《Wheel of Sun and Moon》

What do you think about it?

[Turboninja]

https://deck.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/89662/show/

Tamura Tetsu, 晴れる屋チームレガシー杯 - 2012-09-17


Mainboard (60)

Lands(20)

1《Flooded Strand》
6《Forest》
1《Horizon Canopy》
2《Island》
4《Misty Rainforest》
3《Plains》
1《Serra's Sanctum》
1《Tundra》
1《Windswept Heath》

Creatures(6)

3《Argothian Enchantress》
3《Cloud of Faeries》

Spells(34)

2《Enlightened Tutor》
4《Living Wish》
1《Back to Basics》
2《Elephant Grass》
4《Enchantress's Presence》
1《Ground Seal》
2《Mirri's Guile》
1《Oblivion Ring》
2《Seal of Removal》
2《Solitary Confinement》
2《Sterling Grove》
4《Utopia Sprawl》
4《Wild Growth》
2《Words of Wind》
1《Cloudstone Curio》


Sideboard (15)

1《Serra's Sanctum》
1《Argothian Enchantress》
1《Cloud of Faeries》
1《Emrakul, the Aeons Torn》
1《Gaddock Teeg》
1《Gilded Drake》
1《Phyrexian Revoker》
1《Replenish》
1《Back to Basics》
1《Carpet of Flowers》
1《City of Solitude》
1《Energy Flux》
1《Karmic Justice》
1《Stony Silence》
1《Wheel of Sun and Moon》

What do you think about it?

Replacing GSZ with Living Wish has its advantages, but here it reduces the amount of enchantresses to only 11, which is too little.

I like the Horizon Canopy. You never want to have an enchantment on it, but in many games I am left with too many lands. We require 2-3 early on, but when we start drawing our deck, it would be nice to have a land that can replace itself. I'll try it out.

I do not like relying on white. 3 Plains is clearly too much.

The list is interesting, but I feel that overall it is too spread out and will lose to itself more often than a standard UG list.

[Turboninja]

Horizon Canopy is not very good for this deck, as it cannot be fetched and is yet another non-basic land.

Here's a new card in spoilers that could potentially be very good for us:

https://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/ravnica-allegiance/35914-lines-of-ash

Cindervines
RG
Enchantment
Whenever an opponent casts a non-creature spell, Cindervines deals 1 damage to that player.

1, sacrifice Lines of Ash: Destroy target artifact or enchantment. Cindervines deals 2 damage to that permanent's controller.

I love it. I will most certainly retry the RUG version of this deck with blood moons and this little darling. This is a Seal of Primordium (albeit harder to cast and more expensive to activate) that doubles as pressure against combo.

What do you think?

[Turboninja]

I'm trying something new here. Going bad to a UG version, with no splash. Trying out Mystic Remora with FoW and Surgical out of the SB to win combo matchups. Herald is something else I am trying. Against Burn it makes sure I can gain infinite life if I combo and not be dead to land bolt. I believe it can also help against D&T and other mana denial strategies.

Any thoughts?

Enchantment (25)
4x Elephant Grass
4x Enchantress's Presence
1x Mirri's Guile
1x Mystic Remora
1x Seal of Primordium
4x Seal of Removal
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Wild Growth
2x Words of Wind
Sorcery (4)
4x Green Sun's Zenith
Land (20)
1x Dryad Arbor
9x Forest
2x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Tropical Island
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswept Heath
Creature (11)
4x Argothian Enchantress
4x Cloud of Faeries
2x Eternal Witness
1x Herald of the Pantheon
Sideboard (15)
1x Carpet of Flowers
3x Force of Will
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
1x Lignify
2x Mystic Remora
1x Nissa, Vital Force
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Seal of Primordium
2x Surgical Extraction

[A_Goblin_Guide]

I saw someone suggested knight of autumn. In the green white version, do you think this could replace both kitchen rinks and rec sage in the sideboard? If so, is emrakul worthy of the open slot? Or are there better options in the wish sideboard?

[Turboninja]

Knight of Autumn is a great card, even maindeck. It does act as pseudo Finks and Reclamation Sage.

I would not play Emrakul in UG Enchantress, there is no need for a win con if your opponent has no permanents. It is a wasted slot.

[A_Goblin_Guide]

Knight of Autumn is a great card, even maindeck. It does act as pseudo Finks and Reclamation Sage.

I would not play Emrakul in UG Enchantress, there is no need for a win con if your opponent has no permanents. It is a wasted slot.

I got that impression after reading up on this deck, I just had a friend who is better than me at magic (yet obviously not familiar enough with this deck) suggest it. do you feel like a choke could take one of those slots? Or maybe a second Nissa?

[Turboninja]

Choke is not very good in our deck which relies on basic islands and Tropical Islands for our combo to work. Choke is good against those decks where our engine is already pretty good. Otherwise, Back to Basics is also very good, we can get basics and go under it.

Having 3 planeswalkers is probably too much. I would try to diversify, maybe add Doomwake Giant. It is extraordinary in the matchups where it's good (D&T, Elves, Grixis Delver). My latest build is much more wish-centric. I've been loving Brain Maggot and Doomwake Giant.

Land (20)
1x Bayou
8x Forest
2x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Snow-Covered Forest
1x Tropical Island
1x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
Sorcery (6)
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Living Wish
Enchantment (22)
4x Elephant Grass
4x Enchantress's Presence
1x Seal of Primordium
3x Seal of Removal
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Wild Growth
2x Words of Wind
Creature (12)
3x Argothian Enchantress
2x Brain Maggot
4x Cloud of Faeries
1x Doomwake Giant
1x Eidolon of Blossoms
1x Reclamation Sage
Sideboard (15)
1x Argothian Enchantress
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Brain Maggot
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Doomwake Giant
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Herald of the Pantheon
1x Karakas
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Seal of Primordium
1x Wasteland

[A_Goblin_Guide]

Choke is not very good in our deck which relies on basic islands and Tropical Islands for our combo to work. Choke is good against those decks where our engine is already pretty good. Otherwise, Back to Basics is also very good, we can get basics and go under it.

Having 3 planeswalkers is probably too much. I would try to diversify, maybe add Doomwake Giant. It is extraordinary in the matchups where it's good (D&T, Elves, Grixis Delver). My latest build is much more wish-centric. I've been loving Brain Maggot and Doomwake Giant.

Land (20)
1x Bayou
8x Forest
2x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Snow-Covered Forest
1x Tropical Island
1x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
Sorcery (6)
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Living Wish
Enchantment (22)
4x Elephant Grass
4x Enchantress's Presence
1x Seal of Primordium
3x Seal of Removal
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Wild Growth
2x Words of Wind
Creature (12)
3x Argothian Enchantress
2x Brain Maggot
4x Cloud of Faeries
1x Doomwake Giant
1x Eidolon of Blossoms
1x Reclamation Sage
Sideboard (15)
1x Argothian Enchantress
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Brain Maggot
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Doomwake Giant
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Herald of the Pantheon
1x Karakas
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Seal of Primordium
1x Wasteland

The same friend suggested choke lol. He didn't know if it was a good enough bomb in certain matchups, again he is not super familiar with this deck. Thank you for your help though! I'm very excited and traded for most of this deck at GP Niagara Falls. I saw that you guys are also thinking of naming the deck something new, and I thought of Wild Winds (words of wind, wild growth obvi). I have no authority here, so I understand if you don't want to because of that. I just thought it was cool!

[Turboninja]

I've seen the deck called UG Enchantress, as this thread suggests, and Eternal Winds. I myself call it Enchanted Island, name which Jody Keith adopted when he played the deck. Wild Winds is good too. The deck doesn't have enough pilots to warrant exclusivity on the name, name yours as you wish! :cool:

I do believe that having a Words card in Enchantress is the appropriate place to be in this meta which will be infested with Narsets soon enough. Don't forget that if you replace the first draw of a turn, you can keep replacing all your draws with Words of Wind (or any of the Words).

[WarpWorld]

I've seen the deck called UG Enchantress, as this thread suggests, and Eternal Winds. I myself call it Enchanted Island, name which Jody Keith adopted when he played the deck. Wild Winds is good too. The deck doesn't have enough pilots to warrant exclusivity on the name, name yours as you wish! :cool:

I do believe that having a Words card in Enchantress is the appropriate place to be in this meta which will be infested with Narsets soon enough. Don't forget that if you replace the first draw of a turn, you can keep replacing all your draws with Words of Wind (or any of the Words).As I enjoy playing with this from time to time and don't have a dog in the naming convention of the deck. I think the the first person with real success can have the honor. So happy hunting [emoji16]

[JanoschEausH]

Is Narset killing this deck?

[WarpWorld]

Is Narset killing this deck?No more than leo did. Land a words and float an activation in your upkeep and play as normal.

[Turboninja]

I've been playing a few ORings lately also to hedge against Narset and Karn, as well as all the Twelve Posts that are rampant online.

Narset is a card that we have to deal with, and seeing as we do not play many creatures that can actually attack, it means that we rarely have the means to dispose of her. Priority number one is to land a words of wind for sure. You may want to try words of war too.

[A_Goblin_Guide]

I've been playing a few ORings lately also to hedge against Narset and Karn, as well as all the Twelve Posts that are rampant online.

Narset is a card that we have to deal with, and seeing as we do not play many creatures that can actually attack, it means that we rarely have the means to dispose of her. Priority number one is to land a words of wind for sure. You may want to try words of war too.

Do you think the non-white splashes could just play imprisoned in the moon?

[Turboninja]

Both cards have different advantages. Imprisoned in the Moon is great since it can also take care of certain problematic lands as well as the creatures and Planeswalkers we want to cover with ORing. However, the fact that it cannot get Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere is a big loss. Online, Twelve post is rampant and we need all cards that can deal with chalice as possible.

I haven't played with Imprisoned in the Moon though, so maybe I could be convinced otherwise. I'll try it some day.

[A_Goblin_Guide]

Is Hall of Heliod's Generosity worth it as a wish target or maindeck even? Or is it too slow/too tough to fit?

[Turboninja]

Hall of Heliod's Generosity is hard to combine with the WoW engine. For the engine to be good, you need to have a very streamlined deck. In this era of W6, haing more basics is better and offers more consistent results.

[dredge90]

Hall of Heliod's Generosity is hard to combine with the WoW engine. For the engine to be good, you need to have a very streamlined deck. In this era of W6, haing more basics is better and offers more consistent results.

I agree. Also, colorless mana sources aren’t great for us and getting this plus black and white online is hard.

[dredge90]

I wonder if we’d be interested in some number of prismatic vista over some nonmisty fetches. The debate on it would obviously be grabbing splash g/x dual vs being able to grab basic island.

[Turboninja]

Depending on the build, it could make sense. Most of the time (<75%) we need a basic forest anyway.

I feel in the current meta, a simple UG version could have a better chance. Obviously Narset is horrible for us, but WoW is a great card to counter it. I believe that trying to ORing or Maggot it is too much work and weakens our main plan too much for it to be worth it. Also, W6 makes having duals a bad proposition.

[dredge90]

Took down a little 14 player tourney. Knight of autumn was a solid finisher and force of vigor x2 out of the board was super important. Played maindeck Gaddock Teeg which allowed me to beat big red twice. Will post list a little later.

[Turboninja]

Congrats!

Here's my latest list, with Estrid's Invocation and no GSZ.

Enchantment (32)
3x Abundant Growth
2x Detention Sphere
4x Elephant Grass
4x Enchantress's Presence
3x Estrid's Invocation
2x Ground Seal
4x Seal of Removal
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Wild Growth
2x Words of Wind

Land (19)
8x Forest
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Savannah
2x Tropical Island
1x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath

Creature (9)
4x Argothian Enchantress
4x Cloud of Faeries
1x Fae of Wishes

Sideboard (15)
1x Back to Basics
1x Citadel Siege
1x City of Solitude
3x Force of Will
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
1x In the Eye of Chaos
1x Nissa, Vital Force
2x Seal of Primordium
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Veil of Summer

Plays a bit different, but seems resilient for now. Any thoughts?

Sent from my BBF100-2 using Tapatalk

[dredge90]

I can’t figure out how to post pictures from my mobile so here’s the list-

Argothian Enchantress 4
Cloud of Faeries 4
Eternal Witness 2
Gaddock Teeg 1
Knight of Autumn 1
Green Sun’s Zenith 4
Enchantress’s Presence 4
Words of Wind 2
Carpet of Flowers 2
Seal of Removal 4
Elephant’s Grass 4
Utopia Sprawl 4
Wild Growth 4
Bayou 1
Tropical Island 2
Dryad Arbor 1
Lotus Petal 1
Forest 5
Island 2
Windswept Heath 1
Misty Rainforest 3
Verdant Catacombs 4

Side
Seal of Primordium 1
Force of Vigor 2
Leyline of Sanctity 3
Dread of Night 1
Doomwake Giant 2
Surgical Extraction 2
Nihil Spellbomb 1
Parallax Nexus 3

Should have had a Savannah and a 4th Misty obviously. New mulligan rule is very good for the gsz dryad arbor interaction. Missed having Emrakul for ease of finish because it’s hard for people to understand they’re dead and I have infinite life with 1/1s, 2/1s, and 2/2s. Gaddock Teeg is absolutely correct. Only used 5 of my sideboard cards all day. Force is a really good upgrade for us as an out to chalice and a quick Karn lock.

[Turboninja]

How have the carpet of flowers been? It's been a while since I have played them.

Sent from my BBF100-2 using Tapatalk

[dredge90]

Carpet was solid. RUG delver cringes because it invalidates their dazes and possible spell pierces although my opponent this weekend was on spell snare.