Gatecrash Spoilers

[mrjumbo03]

I have no idea if these are legit but these are up over at MTGS now.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137177&d=1353145146

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137178&d=1353145146

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137174&d=1353145146

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137175&d=1353145146

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137176&d=1353145146

[socialite]

Look pretty legit.

[Megadeus]

Will there be an omniscience enter the infinite deck? I may have to play it in standard...

[death]

Enter the Infinite.




First things that come to mind..

1 Omniscience

2 Dream Halls

3 High Tide + Candelabra of Tawnos/Turnabout

[Shawon]

Is that Jace Beleren's face in Enter the Infinite?

Anyway, I think Conflux just got obsoleted in Dream Halls. I don't see how in any situation where you would have Dream Halls on the battlefield would you rather have Conflux than Enter the Infinite, except if you only have a random card that isn't blue that you can't pitch to cast Enter which seems like a corner case scenario in a deck that has mostly blue cards...

Yay, another conservatively designed planeswalker while we get another OP blue card. Why are they too scared to push any planeswalker that has red in it?

[Jenni]

Wow.. another absurd blue card... at least this one isn't a permanent though, and playing it in Show and Tell-omniscience isn't too much worse, since they typically just win once they cast omniscience anyway.

I rather like the new planeswalker, for 3 it's pretty reasonable, considering a G/R deck will likely have a lot of creatures with decent P/T he's a semi-reliable way to draw cards, or a mediocre removal spell. Not great, but I think he could potentially find a home in some gruul beatdown deck in block.

The dragon I'm not too impressed with. Gimicky, but could have some use with keyrunes and chromatic lanterns floating around, but if you're hitting with a 6/5 flyer that cost 6 you should be winning shortly anyway. Might be nice in some sort of artifact ramp deck? ... but probably not. Maybe sideboard for sneak attack decks (if those still exist) against affinity, since it basically steals their entire board.

The two Legends seem reasonably powerful for their costs, and on-flavour with their guild.

[jjjoness']

The legends are kind of cool for EDH since RW and RG are somewhat underplayed. Enter the Infinite is designed incredibly bad. What happened to cards that require thinking... Planeswalker is cool. Too bad you can't tug the card away with the +1 ability.

[Hanni]

I'm excited to see what Gatecrash has to offer, and I'm also curious what exactly the Gate lands are going to be used for.

[Bobmans]

Enter the infinite..... 1-off in SB of Omnitell as a wincon. but you can already win with something else. next to petals of insight anyways.

In high tide... draw deck, drop everything you got and throw an even bigger Stroke at your opponent.. But is it really necessary?

All cards look so broken...

Hellkite Tyrant in something like GBR nic fit or Reanimator VS MUD or Affinity...

How about hellkite tyrant in Vintage in Oath of Druids

The more i think of it the more weirdness i come up with...

[Aggro_zombies]

Hellkite Tyrant seems undercosted for what it does. I mean, a 6/5 flying for six is beefy enough, but with that trigger as well...

Enter the Infinite does not seem good in High Tide. You get to (over) twelve mana, draw your deck...and then what? You can cast a single draw-one cantrip; any further and you'll lose because your library is empty. So I guess you cast all your High Tides and an untap spell, then Time Spiral to keep going? Seems not worth the potential of hitting an otherwise-dead twelve-mana sorcery while going off.

It does seem interesting in Dream Halls, though, and significantly better than the Conflux kill. That had a lot of moving parts and room for interaction, but this is just one spell that gets all your permission and all your combo pieces. Now the question is, will this make Dream Halls good again?

I guess the card is a fine Burning Wish target for Omniscience.

Domri Rade is very interesting. Not only is he competitively costed, but he works with the beatdown plan red/green likes very well: +1 for card advantage, -2 removal, -7 all your creatures become ridiculous. There aren't really any RG decks in this format with that many guys anymore, but he'll be pretty good in a Standard Gruul Stompy/Heezy Street deck.

EDIT: I kind of want to build an Aurelia EDH deck now. She seems like one of the first legitimately good generals for a straight aggro EDH build.

[menace13]

Borbor looks amazing for EDH. It doubles as a Seismic Assualt(even better at 3 damage) with Loam. Tyrant will see a good amount of EDH play as well.

And, wow, nice design(not really), draw your deck for 12 mana(like Omni and Dreams needed more)......

[clavio]

Playing Aurelia in limited seems fucking amazing.

As far as Enter the Infinite, it looks fucking awesome but I don't think it's practical. A lot of times with high tide I'm basically able to draw my deck off of a fat blue sun's zenith anyways. Any combos I've thought of so far are worse than just playing ad nauseum and winning.

[Barook]

I like the new Planeswalker - seems good with cheap fat like Goyf and library manipulation like Sylvan Library. Not amazing, but decent.

[dunk]

Enter the Infinite: I remember when people had to establish combos to literally draw their whole deck... now it's just 1 card, and a few months after the printing of Omniscience even? Just wtf

Hellkite Tyrant: Pretty awkward for a mythic, especially since it feels out of place in this block. Would have been bomb last season, now it's only meh. Probably strong in casual as well, but too expensive for eternal formats. Even modern Affinity kills you 2-3 turns before this comes down.

Aurelia: Awesome! Finally a constructed playable Relentless Assault. Again, nothing for eternal formats, but pretty bomby in block and standard. Will also randomly win a lot of limited games...

Boborygmos: Meh. EDH card I guess? May be a limited bomb as well, but way worse than Aurelia.

Domri: Dude looks weird, but I like the balancing. Not good enough for legacy, probably not even for modern, but may be awesome in standard. Obv limited bomb as well.

[Fizzeler]

Yeah so Enter The Infinite, at least it isn't a permanent and its cost is very restrictive, still Omniscience is legal in Standard, Modern, Legacy, and Vintage

I like the new R/G Planeswalker it seems strong enough that decks can play it on turn 2 and could have a slot to give card advantage to decks that won't normally receive card advantage like Zoo

[Zombie]

Playing dumb autowin bombs is Good Magic and means you're Good at Magic, didn't you know?

[wcm8]

The sooner Show and Tell gets banned via the printing of obnoxious bombs, the sooner this format will improve. So yes, please, bring on the Emrakuls, Griselbrands, Omnisciences, and Enter the Infinites.

[Vacrix]

Hellkite Tyrant might find a place in somewhere like Dragon Stompy. Stealing Equipment seems pretty good.

[kingsey]

The dragon might be decent against mud in vintage oath.

[Lord Seth]

Enter the Infinite seems overrated to me. The big issue I see with it and Omniscience is that you need Omniscience for it to be worth anything. The other "big stuff" to play with Omniscience, Emrakul and Griselbrand, can be dropped into play with Show and Tell if you can't Show and Tell in an Omniscience, but Enter the Infinite is just stuck in your hand if you have a Show and Tell but no Omniscience.

I'm not a Show and Tell player so maybe I'm just looking at it wrong, but I don't really see it as being that great in the deck.

Speaking as a High Tide player, I don't think it'll do much there either. Even ignoring the fact that a Blue Sun's Zenith for 9 is likely to get you the cards you need anyway (and provides greater flexibility if you don't have 12 mana free), the card seems bad for two major reasons:
1) It's useless before you go off. Granted, Blue Sun's Zenith and Meditate often aren't that great beforehand either, but they at least sometimes have a use beforehand. This card? Not so much.
2) It's a Sorcery. Blue Sun's Zenith can be easily tutored for with Merchant Scroll or Cunning Wish. This one you have to just hope to draw.

It might be okay in Dream Halls though.

[Greenpoe]

Isn't Dream Halls still just worse than Hive Mind? Both are two-card combos which rely on an enchantment + sorcery spell to win. Dream Halls is seems easily hated out, can help your opponent, will have more MD dead draws and even with this new card, and doesn't get to play 8 counterspells that cost zero like Hive Mind can. Dream Halls doesn't die to Stifle, but I guess that's all it has going for it.

[Aggro_zombies]

Isn't Dream Halls still just worse than Hive Mind? Both are two-card combos which rely on an enchantment + sorcery spell to win. Dream Halls is seems easily hated out, can help your opponent, will have more MD dead draws and even with this new card, and doesn't get to play 8 counterspells that cost zero like Hive Mind can. Dream Halls doesn't die to Stifle, but I guess that's all it has going for it.
They're both worse than Omniscience by a mile, so it's a moot point. People who like Dream Halls will run Enter the Infinite instead of Conflux.

[Mark Sun]

I have every desire to troll people at Locals with a Life from the Loam / Natural Order deck featuring Borborygmos...

[Fry]

I have every desire to troll people at Locals with a Life from the Loam / Natural Order deck featuring Borborygmos...

I knew I liked you for some reason! Hope things are going well for you Mark. Your decks always are looking better than just fine to me at least ;)

[slave]

Enter the Infinite looks very interesting - could be a great reason to dust off my Dream Halls deck and try this in it.
The biggest problem with the old False Cure, Beacon of Immortality win-con, was that should either get countered, we scoop due to having only one of either in our hand. Enter the Infinite negates this problem...and works VERY well with Laboratory Maniac as an alternative win-con.:wink:

Enter the Infinite also has to be the closest to a Bruce Lee movie title in MTG.
Please educate me if I'm wrong....

[Darkenslight]

Okay so...

Enter the Infinite is a Wincon in Dream Halls, and a potential Wish-win in High Tide decks.

Hellkite Tyrant is clearly comedy gold in EDH, and is also comical against Affinity.

Aurelia is probably the new best RW Commander. Relentless Assault each turn? YES PLEASE!

Borboygmos Enraged should probably be meatier than he is. Those abilities, though, are fun. Doe sit interect with Commander damage, though?

Domri Rade is probably going to be the chase Mythic of the set. He's ridonkulous in Kessig Wolf Run decks. Doublestrike, trample, haste AND hexproof? Like your creatures weren't going to hit your opponent anyway.

[clavio]

Okay so...

Enter the Infinite is a Wincon in Dream Halls, and a potential Wish-win in High Tide decks.



Sweet burning wish in High Tide -_-

[Barook]

I like Aurelia. She and Borborygmos are really well-designed and have fun abilities, unlike Enter the Infinite which design is not only stupid, but downright insulting.

Considering there's a combat phase after the first combat phase, it's harder to abuse her ability with Karakas, but let's say you have the following setup:

Swing with Aurelia, deal combat damage, Momentary Blink/Cloudshift her ass, then swing again. Considering she should treated as a new card, she should swing for the first time this turn again, giving you overall 3 combat phases, right?

[Philipp2293]

I wonder if I should play Enter the Infinite in my 1000 card + highlander deck :laugh: . The dragon and the multicolour cards definitely go in.

On a more serious note, too bad that the PW is not GW, as he would be pure gold in maverick with relevant abilites both against aggro and control. Maybe I go back to splashing red.

[Bobmans]

The sooner Show and Tell gets banned via the printing of obnoxious bombs, the sooner this format will improve.

Somehow people always flame at S&T, but S&T isn't dominating the meta. It's even moved out of the DTB section. I don't think that Enter the Infinite will change anything.
Maybe they are gonna print even more broken stuff like when Urza's Legacy was printed with Memory Jar. That time WotC wanted to undo that printing. You could bring that card back to the store and receive a new Urza's Legacy booster.

[Jenni]

Somehow people always flame at S&T, but S&T isn't dominating the meta. It's even moved out of the DTB section. I don't think that Enter the Infinite will change anything.
Maybe they are gonna print even more broken stuff like when Urza's Legacy was printed with Memory Jar. That time WotC wanted to undo that printing. You could bring that card back to the store and receive a new Urza's Legacy booster.

I don't think people realize that show and tell can be replaced for the most part.

Eureka is a bit harder to cast, but entirely reasonable for a combo deck, and it can put any permanent into play. Hypergenesis in a control shell or off a cascade does essentially the same thing but again slightly slower and harder to cast.
Gamekeeper, pattern of rebirth, Animal Magnetism, polymorph, etc. can all cheat an emrakul into play fairly easily.
Plus, of course, reanimator is a deck that works on a similar principle of cheat a giant thing into play that wins the game.

These cards are all worse than show and tell, which is why the deck is show and tell, not hypergenesis or Eureka, but banning show and tell doesn't kill the strategy, it just makes it harder to play.

[Kagehisa]

I don't think people realize that show and tell can be replaced for the most part.

Eureka is a bit harder to cast, but entirely reasonable for a combo deck, and it can put any permanent into play. Hypergenesis in a control shell or off a cascade does essentially the same thing but again slightly slower and harder to cast.
Gamekeeper, pattern of rebirth, Animal Magnetism, polymorph, etc. can all cheat an emrakul into play fairly easily.
Plus, of course, reanimator is a deck that works on a similar principle of cheat a giant thing into play that wins the game.

These cards are all worse than show and tell, which is why the deck is show and tell, not hypergenesis or Eureka, but banning show and tell doesn't kill the strategy, it just makes it harder to play.

Don't forget the option of hard casting in some decks. Grim Monolith turn 2 for a turn 3 Hive Mind for example. Show and Tell is sometimes just acceleration not always a way to cheat a card that is "uncastable". I mean there're other accelerators that can take Show and Tell spot ( marginally ).

@Enter the Infinite : I thought it was a joke lol I googled... and oh well... I want to play Dream Halls so bad >_<

Omniscience, Dream Halls, Show and Tell, Enter the Infinite, Brainstorm, Force of Will, etc.

[Kich867]

I don't think people realize that show and tell can be replaced for the most part.

Eureka is a bit harder to cast, but entirely reasonable for a combo deck, and it can put any permanent into play. Hypergenesis in a control shell or off a cascade does essentially the same thing but again slightly slower and harder to cast.
Gamekeeper, pattern of rebirth, Animal Magnetism, polymorph, etc. can all cheat an emrakul into play fairly easily.
Plus, of course, reanimator is a deck that works on a similar principle of cheat a giant thing into play that wins the game.

These cards are all worse than show and tell, which is why the deck is show and tell, not hypergenesis or Eureka, but banning show and tell doesn't kill the strategy, it just makes it harder to play.

But that's all that is really necessary--make it harder to play, change the colors. Green isn't red, that's a huge deal, they then look towards tri-color which makes their mana base less consistent. Even an extra turn, is sometimes all that is needed against SNT to win.

Also, many of those other cards are heinously bad, but for the good ones, they're generally slower and not blue, which is key.

[Jenni]

But that's all that is really necessary--make it harder to play, change the colors. Green isn't red, that's a huge deal, they then look towards tri-color which makes their mana base less consistent. Even an extra turn, is sometimes all that is needed against SNT to win.

Also, many of those other cards are heinously bad, but for the good ones, they're generally slower and not blue, which is key.

Is making it green really going to be that big an issue? Blue with green for eureka and a splash of red for wish and grapeshot isn't that bad - brainstorm and ponder find you your lands just as easily as they find combo pieces, fetches smooth out your mana and they run a lot of fetches already, and they run lotus petals already that they can crack for R or G.
Is it worse? absolutely. Does it kill the deck? not really.

My point was just that banning show and tell won't remove these absurd cards like omniscience and emrakul from legacy. We are, unfortunately, stuck with them for the foreseeable future.

[Kich867]

Its a big deal. Going from two to three colors, your win con is no longer in your main color, you need double green, its slower, these things all add up together to make the strategy a lot more susceptible to hate / mana denial / aggressive decks.

Its still a strategy for sure but it will be a lot more fair.

[Shawon]

I wonder if Enter the Infinite is part of a cycle. I imagine the white counterpart would be something like this:

Enter the Heavens :8::w::w::w::w:
Sorcery
You gain 100 life. At the beginning of your next upkeep, if you have 100 or more life, you win the game.

On a side note, I'm hoping the new Gideon will be very Legacy playable. One of the banners for Gatecrash features Gideon Jura, hence my speculation.

[Barook]

On a side note, I'm hoping the new Gideon will be very Legacy playable. One of the banners for Gatecrash features Gideon Jura, hence my speculation.
IIRC, Gideon was confirmed for Gatecrash.

Considering he's with Boros, I expect him to be :w:/:r:.

[wcm8]

Is making it green really going to be that big an issue? Blue with green for eureka and a splash of red for wish and grapeshot isn't that bad - brainstorm and ponder find you your lands just as easily as they find combo pieces, fetches smooth out your mana and they run a lot of fetches already, and they run lotus petals already that they can crack for R or G.
Is it worse? absolutely. Does it kill the deck? not really.

My point was just that banning show and tell won't remove these absurd cards like omniscience and emrakul from legacy. We are, unfortunately, stuck with them for the foreseeable future.

Right, but then we won't have a card that essentially says '2U Sorcery: Add 15 or 4BBBB or 7UUU to your mana pool.' Eureka is about on power level with Natural Order, which means, not as big of a problem.

Griselbrand in Reanimator is fair. Emrakul in Cloudpost or Elves or whatever is fair. Omniscience hard-cast via High Tide is fair. What isn't really fair is a deck that only needs to play 1 or 2 colors, and can reliably cantrip/tutor for its 2U win condition (which it often cast on the 2nd or 3rd turn, with counterspell backup.)

I mean really, they can just stop beating around the bush and print some dumb card like 'Holy Grail - 20 - Artifact - When ~this~ ETB, you win the game'. And yet even if that's the case, people will still probably defend the legality of Show and Tell by saying stuff like 'yeah, well, the trigger can be Stifled', or 'you can just play 8+ discard spells'. I think its existence puts an unhealthy constraint on the viability and construction of a ton of deck archetypes.

There is a point when people should just accept the fact that this card has the same design flaw as something like Tinker. Maybe at the time it was ~almost~ okay, but everything that has been printed in the years since has made it better suited for a Vintage environment.'

And yeah, Enter the Infinite isn't really a prime example of a card fit for abuse, but it led me onto this tangent.

[Aggro_zombies]

Is making it green really going to be that big an issue? Blue with green for eureka and a splash of red for wish and grapeshot isn't that bad - brainstorm and ponder find you your lands just as easily as they find combo pieces, fetches smooth out your mana and they run a lot of fetches already, and they run lotus petals already that they can crack for R or G.
Is it worse? absolutely. Does it kill the deck? not really.

My point was just that banning show and tell won't remove these absurd cards like omniscience and emrakul from legacy. We are, unfortunately, stuck with them for the foreseeable future.
Banning Survival didn't get rid of Vengevine. Instead, people discovered that the card was not very good without a broken tutor to enable it. Despite the initial outcry about Wizards banning the wrong card, Vengevine hasn't seen play outside of a couple of unpopular, niche, Dredge-esque decks since then. So much for your stupidly overpowered modern creature, eh?

Hypergenesis may be a card, but unless you're Caleb Durward, it's probably not a card you should be playing. Eureka is like Hypergenesis but with the notable drawbacks of costing a bunch of mana and not having tons of effective "tutors" via the cascade mechanic. Natural Order is probably not good enough for the modern Legacy format. People might go back to playing Dream Halls or Hive Mind and just try to hardcast those cards, but those strategies are significantly more beatable and also less powerful than SnT. Sneak Attack minus the SnT component does not seem very good to me.

Banning SnT effectively bans Emrakul, Grisellybear, Omniscience, and a handful of other cards that will then cost too much effort to cheat into play. People will still try to make them work, but on nowhere near the scale they do now.

[Shawon]

IIRC, Gideon was confirmed for Gatecrash.

Considering he's with Boros, I expect him to be :w:/:r:.

He's Boros? Nice. Hopefully his card text will start out with this:


"Gideon ~ cannot be countered"

An uncounterable planeswalker would be pretty damn nice, but I don't think it will happen. None of the planeswalkers printed so far have guild watermarks so I don't think Gideon 2.0 printed in any color combination would have them either, thus they probably wouldn't be a part in any guild cycle.

EDIT: I checked the MTGS thread on the spoilers, and so far the consensus is that Gideon has an affiliation with the Boros and is not necessarily Boros himself, so he may be just a :w: planeswalker.

[Jenni]

Banning Survival didn't get rid of Vengevine. Instead, people discovered that the card was not very good without a broken tutor to enable it. Despite the initial outcry about Wizards banning the wrong card, Vengevine hasn't seen play outside of a couple of unpopular, niche, Dredge-esque decks since then. So much for your stupidly overpowered modern creature, eh?


I don't think that's quite the same. Show and tell is not a tutor, it's a way to cheat things into, the problem with survival and vengevine was that it is a tutor, vengevine is pretty bad for the most part, it was playable because of it's combo with survival.
Show and tell, is an enabler for powerful things, but without show and tell those things are still absurdly powerful, and it's just a matter of finding a new way to enable them.
Show and tell is by far the best way to make them work, but I don't think the deck concept really dies if you build it around Hypergenesis, or even really Eureka - it gets worse, yes, but with a deck built around the cards it's still reasonable to make it work.
As long as things like Emrakul, Omniscience, or even just Darksteel Colossus exist, people will try to make them work, it's just part of having big showy things in the game. There will pretty much always be a deck that tries to cheat them into play, and even if that deck isn't great, people will play it. Even show and tell isn't that great, it's a good deck, but it's not broken.

Honestly, banning show and tell would be perfectly fine with me, I don't think it needs to be banned, it's just not that bad, but banning it as a preventative measure or something could be reasonable.
I am also not saying emrakul and griselbrand and omniscience should be banned. The power level is ridiculous, but none of these are so good that they destroy every other deck and dominate the metagame.
Show and tell is a good deck, but it's not broken, at least not yet.

[Aggro_zombies]

I don't think that's quite the same. Show and tell is not a tutor, it's a way to cheat things into, the problem with survival and vengevine was that it is a tutor, vengevine is pretty bad for the most part, it was playable because of it's combo with survival.
Show and tell, is an enabler for powerful things, but without show and tell those things are still absurdly powerful, and it's just a matter of finding a new way to enable them.
Show and tell is by far the best way to make them work, but I don't think the deck concept really dies if you build it around Hypergenesis, or even really Eureka - it gets worse, yes, but with a deck built around the cards it's still reasonable to make it work.
As long as things like Emrakul, Omniscience, or even just Darksteel Colossus exist, people will try to make them work, it's just part of having big showy things in the game. There will pretty much always be a deck that tries to cheat them into play, and even if that deck isn't great, people will play it. Even show and tell isn't that great, it's a good deck, but it's not broken.

Honestly, banning show and tell would be perfectly fine with me, I don't think it needs to be banned, it's just not that bad, but banning it as a preventative measure or something could be reasonable.
I am also not saying emrakul and griselbrand and omniscience should be banned. The power level is ridiculous, but none of these are so good that they destroy every other deck and dominate the metagame.
Show and tell is a good deck, but it's not broken, at least not yet.
The reason people use SnT is because it's the best implementation. You can still make Vvine work with Entomb, Buried Alive, Fauna Shaman, etc., but the extra effort you have to go to makes it not worth it. Similarly, you could use Hypergenesis to drop Emrakul and company into play, but that strategy is significantly worse than just SnTing them in. Eureka is also worse for the reasons Kich867 outlined. It's still theoretically possible to cheat these cards into play, yes, but the question is: is it worth the effort? I suspect not:

Grisellybear will probably stay in Reanimator. He might see play in Hypergenesis; I don't know how often you'd really need to go off more than once with that deck, but I guess a 7/7 lifelink is still fine even if you never use his draw ability.

Emrakul won't see play outside of Hypergenesis. Sneak Attack might make a comeback, but without SnT to let you keep your fat it seems not so hot to me. Worldspine Wurm, I guess?

Omniscience won't really be a thing. Dream Halls and Hive Mind are sort of the same thing in terms of enabling a "weird non-storm combo deck", but you can actually cast them. Some people may try to Eureka Omniscience into play, but costing double of a color that's not the one for your cantrips seems like a bummer, and four mana means you lose speed and with it the ability to dodge counters. At that point, you might as well just stick with Dream Halls because it's going to take an equivalent amount of effort but keeps you in mono-blue.

Big stupid bombs are not inherently problematic - take out their enablers and up-front costs spike. Like you, I suspect it's only a matter of time until SnT gets banned because it's a card - like Survival - whose power level was masked by the crappiness of what you could do with it. As power and splash creep continue - especially for creatures - SnT is going to become incrementally more obnoxious.

[Malchar]

Considering there's a combat phase after the first combat phase, it's harder to abuse her ability with Karakas, but let's say you have the following setup:

Swing with Aurelia, deal combat damage, Momentary Blink/Cloudshift her ass, then swing again. Considering she should treated as a new card, she should swing for the first time this turn again, giving you overall 3 combat phases, right?

Yea this should work. You can blink Aurelia during the first end of combat step and then when you go to your second combat step, it will be just like the first one again. Aurelia will trigger, untap your creatures, and give you a third combat. Each blink effect that you use will effectively give you an extra attack with all your creatures.

Also note that extra combat phases have a great interaction with exalted because it will trigger multiple times and essentially stack with the previous bonus.

[swoop]

Yea this should work. You can blink Aurelia during the first end of combat step and then when you go to your second combat step, it will be just like the first one again. Aurelia will trigger, untap your creatures, and give you a third combat. Each blink effect that you use will effectively give you an extra attack with all your creatures.

Also note that extra combat phases have a great interaction with exalted because it will trigger multiple times and essentially stack with the previous bonus.

I do not think it will work.

[alderon666]

I do not think it will work.

Infinite combo with Galepowder Mage. LULZ

It will work because after coming back into play the card a new instance of itself, there it's the first it attacks that turn.

[SpikeyMikey]

Aggro: My problem with cards like Vengevine or Emrakul is not that the cards are too broken. My problem is that those enablers that you advocate banning are fun cards to have in the format. Survival as a toolbox card allowed for a lot of latitude in deck construction and really encouraged experimentation with different utility creatures. GSZ does that to an extent, but the green requirement makes it a little less flexible. Without creatures like Iona/Emrakul/Griselbrand, Show and Tell isn't a problem either. I remember a casual buddy of mine had a deck that would use Show and Tell to pop out Serra Avatars and Phantom Nishobas. There's nothing wrong with those kind of interactions. Had Wizards made Emrakul properly (i.e. given it the Phage ability), it wouldn't have been an issue. But those sorts of cards without drawbacks don't encourage intelligent play. Instead of back-and-forth games where the winner is the one who best leveraged their cards into board advantage, it's "I have a threat. Do you have the correct answer already in hand?" If the answer is yes, the game goes on. If the answer is no, the game ends right there. That's not about who's doing the best job of managing their resources, that's about who drew better.

[TorpidNinja]

Infinite combo with Galepowder Mage. LULZ

It will work because after coming back into play the card a new instance of itself, there it's the first it attacks that turn.

Whenever Galepowder Mage attacks, exile another target creature. Return that card to the battlefield under its owner's control at the beginning of the next end step.

So, no.

[Koby]

Dead Eye Navigator + Aurelia = alot of damage.

[Aggro_zombies]

Aggro: My problem with cards like Vengevine or Emrakul is not that the cards are too broken. My problem is that those enablers that you advocate banning are fun cards to have in the format. Survival as a toolbox card allowed for a lot of latitude in deck construction and really encouraged experimentation with different utility creatures. GSZ does that to an extent, but the green requirement makes it a little less flexible. Without creatures like Iona/Emrakul/Griselbrand, Show and Tell isn't a problem either. I remember a casual buddy of mine had a deck that would use Show and Tell to pop out Serra Avatars and Phantom Nishobas. There's nothing wrong with those kind of interactions. Had Wizards made Emrakul properly (i.e. given it the Phage ability), it wouldn't have been an issue. But those sorts of cards without drawbacks don't encourage intelligent play. Instead of back-and-forth games where the winner is the one who best leveraged their cards into board advantage, it's "I have a threat. Do you have the correct answer already in hand?" If the answer is yes, the game goes on. If the answer is no, the game ends right there. That's not about who's doing the best job of managing their resources, that's about who drew better.
I'll grant that Survival was a fun card, but it's also inherently broken. Any tutor engine is going to be broken. The fact that it was okay when the creatures you could find with it were bad doesn't excuse the fact that a cheap-on-both-ends, reusable tutor is seriously powerful and probably a mistake in terms of what should be printed. Now that creatures are actually good, Survival has the ability to live up to its potential.

SnT is kind of obnoxious. I don't think there are many players who ever lose to SnT and think, "Man, that was an awesome game. My opponent put a huge guy into play and I couldn't neutralize it so the game devolved into me trying to figure out how I could deal with this huge thing that hit play on turn two." This feeling has only been exacerbated by the auto-win-ness of the big things they've been making lately.

That said, I'm not going to complain too much that creatures are more powerful. I mean, people used to play shit cards like Order of the Ebon Hand in their Necropotence decks. One of the most broken draw engines of all time and the best way they could come up with to win with it was a bunch of 2/1s for two.

[Bright Light Bringer]

Yeah, let's ban fun cards that enable deck variety and non-broken cool strategies until all we have left is Delver and Miracles trying to gnaw each other, while everyone else stands still watching with their hands tied, as if that wasn't happening already. This "Show and Tell MIGHT become broken in the future, so let's ban it now" is the most absurd thing I have read in this forum, it's an approach to desperation in order to get something banned by trying to justify your irrational hate towards in. The reason to ban a card is very simple: it's affecting the board, as in RIGHT NOW, to such an extent that the entire meta revolves around it. Take down show and tell and you kill sneak attack, omnitell, dream halls, hive mind and you cut the legs off of hypergenesis and reanimator, as if these weren't having a hard time already. You may also want to notice that none of these decks have been putting consistent results lately and it really bothers me that someone even has the nerve to call out a ban on a completely NOT broken card while seeing RUG Delver, UW whatever and maverick (this one to a lesser extent now, but it still holding MUCH more value than your so called "broken" decks) swarming the fields like the plague itself. Seriously, it's so amazing that they should make a card out of this, perhaps Enter Dementia.

[Barook]

It would certainly help if Wizards printed more stuff that punishes people for cheating stuff into play. Imagine a red Thalia that nukes players whenever something is cheated into play for its CC. Emrakul sounds less hot when you eat 15 to the face, especially after Tomb activations and/or facing bolts.

Same goes with the severe lack of library manipulation hate. Where are the cards that slap your shit for using Jace/SDT every turn?

[Octopusman]

It would certainly help if Wizards printed more stuff that punishes people for cheating stuff into play. Imagine a red Thalia that nukes players whenever something is cheated into play for its CC. Emrakul sounds less hot when you eat 15 to the face, especially after Tomb activations and/or facing bolts.

Same goes with the severe lack of library manipulation hate. Where are the cards that slap your shit for using Jace/SDT every turn?

Burning-Tree Shaman

Though I would like to see more cards like the ones you've mentioned.

[death]

That said, I'm not going to complain too much that creatures are more powerful. I mean, people used to play shit cards like Order of the Ebon Hand in their Necropotence decks. One of the most broken draw engines of all time and the best way they could come up with to win with it was a bunch of 2/1s for two.

Well to be fair (back then), those were the decent stuff you can jam in the deck, and Drain Life, before there was Corrupt and Yawgmoth's Will still wasn't a card. Heck pros even tried breaking Mirror Universe with Necropotence, when Mirror was unrestricted.

[Richard Cheese]

It would certainly help if Wizards printed more stuff that punishes people for cheating stuff into play. Imagine a red Thalia that nukes players whenever something is cheated into play for its CC. Emrakul sounds less hot when you eat 15 to the face, especially after Tomb activations and/or facing bolts.

Same goes with the severe lack of library manipulation hate. Where are the cards that slap your shit for using Jace/SDT every turn?

There is not nearly enough slapping of shit in this game.

[SpikeyMikey]

I'll grant that Survival was a fun card, but it's also inherently broken. Any tutor engine is going to be broken. The fact that it was okay when the creatures you could find with it were bad doesn't excuse the fact that a cheap-on-both-ends, reusable tutor is seriously powerful and probably a mistake in terms of what should be printed. Now that creatures are actually good, Survival has the ability to live up to its potential.

SnT is kind of obnoxious. I don't think there are many players who ever lose to SnT and think, "Man, that was an awesome game. My opponent put a huge guy into play and I couldn't neutralize it so the game devolved into me trying to figure out how I could deal with this huge thing that hit play on turn two." This feeling has only been exacerbated by the auto-win-ness of the big things they've been making lately.

That said, I'm not going to complain too much that creatures are more powerful. I mean, people used to play shit cards like Order of the Ebon Hand in their Necropotence decks. One of the most broken draw engines of all time and the best way they could come up with to win with it was a bunch of 2/1s for two.

It's all situational. I don't think you can call a card inherently broken. In the right context, the most broken card you can name could be strictly disadvantageous. For some cards, that context gets a little more ridiculous than others. It's hard to make Ancestral Recall actively bad, but you could do it, assuming you have a format with no acceleration, no cheap countermagic and a ton of effects along the lines of Black Vice/Underworld Dreams/Storm Seeker. In that format, something like Lotleth Troll would be far more "broken" than Ancestral. Or if there were a card that cost 3UU with a flashback of 1U that said "Draw 3 cards", Quiet Speculation would be more broken than Ancestral.

So the question isn't really one of inherent brokenness, it's the dual question of "how easy would this card be to break?" and "what does it add to the format when it's not broken?" For something like Ancestral Recall or Necropotence, the answer to "how easy" is "very damn easy". Even when the best thing you could do with Necropotence is make pump knights, it was still pretty damn good.

But I would argue that when you talk about a card like Survival of the Fittest, the answer to "how easy" is actually "not very". It's not just that you need a creature that's powerful enough to make it worth building a deck around Survival. It also has to be cheap enough to be viable in the only formats that Survival is legal in. Vengevine fit the bill because 4 of them cost GGGGG. 16 power of hasted beats for 5 mana is ridiculous no matter how you look at it. And I never believed that VV necessitated the ban of SotF. I feel like people just refused to understand how they needed to adapt to beat it. Same goes for Mental Misstep. But that's neither here nor there. The point is that outside of a few interactions with creatures that add nothing to the game (seriously, what positive change does Iona bring to the strategy of the game?), Survival was good for Legacy. Sensei's Divining Top is good for Legacy. Miracles, on the other hand, are not. Emrakul is not. These cards don't encourage players to play smarter. They don't involve strategic choices or decision trees. I play something big and dumb and you either have the answer or you lose.

[Barook]

Burning-Tree Shaman

Though I would like to see more cards like the ones you've mentioned.
As much as I like BTS, his pinging ability is too expensive for its effect. That doesn't qualify as shit slapping - it's more of caressing them with a turd.

2cc and 2 damage per (more specific) trigger would probably be needed now, considering the power creep.

[JDK]

Sweet burning wish in High Tide -_-

Izzet Tide just got real.

[Aggro_zombies]

It's all situational. I don't think you can call a card inherently broken. In the right context, the most broken card you can name could be strictly disadvantageous. For some cards, that context gets a little more ridiculous than others. It's hard to make Ancestral Recall actively bad, but you could do it, assuming you have a format with no acceleration, no cheap countermagic and a ton of effects along the lines of Black Vice/Underworld Dreams/Storm Seeker. In that format, something like Lotleth Troll would be far more "broken" than Ancestral. Or if there were a card that cost 3UU with a flashback of 1U that said "Draw 3 cards", Quiet Speculation would be more broken than Ancestral.
This sounds remarkably like the sort of hair-splitting that goes into "strictly better" arguments. Yes, if you have two cards in your library, Ancestral Recall is not that broken. Yes, if Wizards prints some cards that work with other cards then Ancestral is not as good in those situations wherein you can get your combo together. However, under reasonable scenarios, I think most people would agree that Ancestral is inherently broken.


But I would argue that when you talk about a card like Survival of the Fittest, the answer to "how easy" is actually "not very". It's not just that you need a creature that's powerful enough to make it worth building a deck around Survival. It also has to be cheap enough to be viable in the only formats that Survival is legal in. Vengevine fit the bill because 4 of them cost GGGGG. 16 power of hasted beats for 5 mana is ridiculous no matter how you look at it. And I never believed that VV necessitated the ban of SotF. I feel like people just refused to understand how they needed to adapt to beat it. Same goes for Mental Misstep. But that's neither here nor there. The point is that outside of a few interactions with creatures that add nothing to the game (seriously, what positive change does Iona bring to the strategy of the game?), Survival was good for Legacy. Sensei's Divining Top is good for Legacy. Miracles, on the other hand, are not. Emrakul is not. These cards don't encourage players to play smarter. They don't involve strategic choices or decision trees. I play something big and dumb and you either have the answer or you lose.
Survival is a tutor (reduces variance) that is reusable (severely reduces variance) for very little mana (low barrier to use). Survival is inherently broken. If the only creatures you can get with it are shitty, it's still inherently broken because it does something that is bad for the game: it reduces variance in a game with a significant luck component. Yes, competitive players love to death cards like Survival precisely because they make the game more chess-like - where the better player almost always wins - but Magic was not designed to be chess-like.

I mean, I know you think Magic is shit now because Wizards is catering to the unwashed hordes instead of making a game to be played at the rarefied tables of true gentlemen, but variance can be good for a game's replay value. Puzzles become less fun to solve when you know exactly how to do so.

[Koby]

I mean, I know you think Magic is shit now because Wizards is catering to the unwashed hordes instead of making a game to be played at the rarefied tables of true gentlemen, but variance can be good for a game's replay value. Puzzles become less fun to solve when you know exactly how to do so.

BTW, that is precisely what Vintage can become - given more rewarding tools for its card pool. I'm thinking some sort of marquee enchantment in Red that doesn't directly go into Workshop or Goblin/Burn in Legacy.

I dare them. I dare them!

[Aggro_zombies]

BTW, that is precisely what Vintage can become - given more rewarding tools for its card pool. I'm thinking some sort of marquee enchantment in Red that doesn't directly go into Workshop or Goblin/Burn in Legacy.

I dare them. I dare them!
A Gentleman's Game of Strategy
U
Instant
Look at your library. You may put those cards back in any order.
Draw a card.
"And now, may the best intellect win." - Spikey McSpikerson, Pro Player

[Fizzeler]

A Gentleman's Game of Strategy
U
Instant
Look at your library. You may put those cards back in any order.
Draw a card.
"And now, may the best intellect win." - Spikey McSpikerson, Pro Player

I am petitioning this to be in the next unset

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

I mean, I know you think Magic is shit now because Wizards is catering to the unwashed hordes instead of making a game to be played at the rarefied tables of true gentlemen, but variance can be good for a game's replay value. Puzzles become less fun to solve when you know exactly how to do so.

Variance helps replay value, but it doesn't play well with a lot of Wizard's new thoughts on what competitive Magic should be. Threats have been made so powerful that a slow start, having the wrong answers, or being mana-screwed can totally bone you. As "fundamental turns" drop lower due to power creep, that's less time for random draws to help you out, for variance to swing the other way. The game's outcome becomes far less in your control.

In Standard, you don't really play a lot of the "goodstuff" decks; you just hope your ludicrous value critters (that don't really take a lot of skill to get value out of, have few drawbacks) like Thragtusk, Resto-Angel, Messenger, and the like are either better than the opponent's or enough to outlast them. Your "answers" are topdecked miracles. Is "Lol, just won the game because of SICK BONFIRE HEART OF THE CARDS YEAHHHHHHHHH!" a good kind of variance? I don't think so. You feel less like the pilot of a deck, and more like the...I dunno...custodian?

In Modern you face threats almost as aggressive and varied as Legacy ones, but without the tools that the average Legacy deck has. That's not good variance, and one of the main reasons the format is becoming Goodstuff versus Unfair Combo with a few niche meta decks. You just can't expect to be able to do well against a varied field without the kind of card selection or tutoring that most Legacy decks have to grab silver bullets or matchup relevant cards.

And replay value is pretty overrated when the first few playthroughs aren't very interesting. "Battlecruiser magic" may sell packs (I'd be more likely to attribute it to better marketing, production values, and "relevance" to other popular media), but god damn is it awful to play. Just look at how bad the last few Standard seasons have been.

TL;DFR version: More variance with an increased power level of threats is bad because it makes for way too much variance. If power creep wasn't happening so fast, less tutors/selection might be okay, but yeah...power creep be running train on us all.

[slave]

There is not nearly enough slapping of shit in this game.


As much as I like BTS, (but) That doesn't qualify as shit slapping - it's more of caressing them with a turd.

Oh man.... images.
I'm think I'm gonna go draw Noel on a mirror.

[Lejay]

A Gentleman's Game of Strategy
U
Instant
Look at your library. You may put those cards back in any order.
Draw a card.
"And now, may the best intellect win." - Spikey McSpikerson, Pro Player

Suddenly Doomsday seems really weak.

[Offler]

Enter the Infinite.




First things that come to mind..

1 Omniscience

2 Dream Halls

3 High Tide + Candelabra of Tawnos/Turnabout


12 mana, while 4 are blue? $$$Mind over Matter$$$ Braingeyser finally replaced :D

Edit: This card is surely not for standard, but I see great potential in EDH decks. Hoping for draw is not a problem when you play also Personal tutor, or any massive draw which such decks usually allow.

[FieryBalrog]

Yeah, let's ban fun cards

Show and Tell is a terrible boring card.

Especially since Wizard comes out with at least one hideously stupid timmy bomb in every set now.

I don't miss Polar Kraken, but I do miss Plague Wind or Verdant Force; you know, expensive bomby spells that were actually fun and cool and not :rolleyes:

If I could erase the following cards from existence, I would:
Emrakul
Griselbrand
all the Praetors except Urabrask
Omniscience
and now Enter the Infinite

[FieryBalrog]

Variance helps replay value, but it doesn't play well with a lot of Wizard's new thoughts on what competitive Magic should be. Threats have been made so powerful that a slow start, having the wrong answers, or being mana-screwed can totally bone you. As "fundamental turns" drop lower due to power creep, that's less time for random draws to help you out, for variance to swing the other way. The game's outcome becomes far less in your control.
...

You feel less like the pilot of a deck, and more like the...I dunno...custodian?

Perfect analogy. Your deck just vomits forth onto the table and you watch the results and cry or laugh appropriately. Obviously this is an extreme but things are devolving in this direction. This is what Timmies are supposed to want according to MaRo's psychographic, and it's why Timmies get a bad rep. Maybe most players are Timmies who actually want this and the game will devolve to their taste.

And you're right, a single bomb threat is so ludicrous now in its impact that you either have an immediate answer or counter-bomb, or you're screwed.

It's especially sad to see this in EDH. You see a perfectly normal and fun game going down, then someone lobs a Consecrated Sphinx into the building. No one can kill it in one turn around? Oh look- the game is over. I just drew a clone effect (or six) and enough counterspells to obliterate any attempts to stop me. For casting a single six mana spell in a format where that's early mid-game. At least they banned Prime Time.

The decks that suffer are the ones that are full of little moving parts and interactions, and synergy. Like Loam decks, one of my favorite engine cards. Or in Legacy, Storm decks getting upended by brainless S&T combo, whose synergy consists of "CARD A, meet CARD B!" Modern is a perfect example of this, with all GOODSTUFF.dec vs SUPER_LINEAR.dec.

[Bright Light Bringer]

Show and Tell is a terrible boring card.

Especially since Wizard comes out with at least one hideously stupid timmy bomb in every set now.

I don't miss Polar Kraken, but I do miss Plague Wind or Verdant Force; you know, expensive bomby spells that were actually fun and cool and not :rolleyes:

If I could erase the following cards from existence, I would:
Emrakul
Griselbrand
all the Praetors except Urabrask
Omniscience
and now Enter the Infinite

You just don't like the card and that's it. It doesn't need to be banned because you happen to hate fatties that, despite everyone saying they are overpowered, get their enablers easily hated out, leaving their controllers open to truly fair cards, such as delver (/irony_off). Boring is a subjective concept, for example, I hate decks such as maverick and the other best-cards-of-their-colors-put-together decks, while some people like it. But just because I don't like it, doesn't mean KOTR or GSZ should be banned, for this is what I previously called "irrational hate". Nonetheless, the facts speak for themselves and they show that none of the fatty/show and tell decks are performing that well anymore, thus there is absolutely no reason to ban the core of a deck that underperforms based on biased hate only.


Perfect analogy. Your deck just vomits forth onto the table and you watch the results and cry or laugh appropriately. Obviously this is an extreme but things are devolving in this direction. This is what Timmies are supposed to want according to MaRo's psychographic, and it's why Timmies get a bad rep. Maybe most players are Timmies who actually want this and the game will devolve to their taste.

And you're right, a single bomb threat is so ludicrous now in its impact that you either have an immediate answer or counter-bomb, or you're screwed.

It's especially sad to see this in EDH. You see a perfectly normal and fun game going down, then someone lobs a Consecrated Sphinx into the building. No one can kill it in one turn around? Oh look- the game is over. I just drew a clone effect (or six) and enough counterspells to obliterate any attempts to stop me. For casting a single six mana spell in a format where that's early mid-game. At least they banned Prime Time.

The decks that suffer are the ones that are full of little moving parts and interactions, and synergy. Like Loam decks, one of my favorite engine cards. Or in Legacy, Storm decks getting upended by brainless S&T combo, whose synergy consists of "CARD A, meet CARD B!" Modern is a perfect example of this, with all GOODSTUFF.dec vs SUPER_LINEAR.dec.

There is always a bad match for a deck and, sorry, but picking storm as an example of "complicated" decks is totally out of place. They are so non-interactive that even dredge looks like the very incarnation of board interactivity itself when compared to them. Their linearity and "vomiting" features are just hidden by the fact you need to cast many spells with similar effects without much thought put into it because it's just that much obvious, so using it to try to bash show and tell just doesn't fit. Storm is the prime example of linearity alongside Burn and Dredge, it's no wonder many players compare playing against storm to watching someone masturbate in your face.

[Darkenslight]

There is always a bad match for a deck and, sorry, but picking storm as an example of "complicated" decks is totally out of place. They are so non-interactive that even dredge looks like the very incarnation of board interactivity itself when compared to them. It's linearity and "vomiting" features are just hidden by the fact you need to cast many spells with similar effects without much thought put into it because it's just that much obvious, so using it to try to bash show and tell just doesn't fit. Storm is the prime example of linearity alongside Burn and Dredge, it's no wonder many players compare playing against storm as watching someone masturbate in your face.

There's a fundamental difference between casting lots of cards (as in High Tide decks), and casting ONE card (as in S'N'T or Oath in Vintage). Storm decks might be linear (cast X spells, then kill opponent). They cast one game-winning spell each, but each spell has a different mode of attack - S'n'T lists want Emrakul/Griselbrand, whereas Storm wants Empty the Warrens or Tendrils of Agony. It is the decision trees in Storm that are more complex.

[Bright Light Bringer]

There's a fundamental difference between casting lots of cards (as in High Tide decks), and casting ONE card (as in S'N'T or Oath in Vintage). Storm decks might be linear (cast X spells, then kill opponent). They cast one game-winning spell each, but each spell has a different mode of attack - S'n'T lists want Emrakul/Griselbrand, whereas Storm wants Empty the Warrens or Tendrils of Agony. It is the decision trees in Storm that are more complex.

Since when does "picking up underground cards instead of mainstream ones/being hipsterish" applies for complexity? There is absolutely no decision whatsoever in storm, it's just a straight line that if you don't cut it at it's very beginning, you lose, which is pretty much just like SnT decks.

[Viridia]

Since when does "picking up underground cards instead of mainstream ones/being hipsterish" applies for complexity? There is absolutely no decision whatsoever in storm, it's just a straight line that if you don't cut it at it's very beginning, you lose, which is pretty much just like SnT decks.

Wait, how is there no decision in stormcombo? Assembling a 2-card combo with possibly counter backup is alot less decision taking then getting a hand of 3-6 cards together that you need to combo off >.>

[Zombie]

Perfect analogy. Your deck just vomits forth onto the table and you watch the results and cry or laugh appropriately. Obviously this is an extreme but things are devolving in this direction. This is what Timmies are supposed to want according to MaRo's psychographic, and it's why Timmies get a bad rep. Maybe most players are Timmies who actually want this and the game will devolve to their taste.

And you're right, a single bomb threat is so ludicrous now in its impact that you either have an immediate answer or counter-bomb, or you're screwed.

It's especially sad to see this in EDH. You see a perfectly normal and fun game going down, then someone lobs a Consecrated Sphinx into the building. No one can kill it in one turn around? Oh look- the game is over. I just drew a clone effect (or six) and enough counterspells to obliterate any attempts to stop me. For casting a single six mana spell in a format where that's early mid-game. At least they banned Prime Time.

The decks that suffer are the ones that are full of little moving parts and interactions, and synergy. Like Loam decks, one of my favorite engine cards. Or in Legacy, Storm decks getting upended by brainless S&T combo, whose synergy consists of "CARD A, meet CARD B!" Modern is a perfect example of this, with all GOODSTUFF.dec vs SUPER_LINEAR.dec.

It's not just EDH. In German Highlander, too, I set out to build a new deck and the cards just whisper "Goodstuff. Build Goodstuff" at me all day long. In those slower formats Planeswalkers are kind of an issue, too. Things like Karn and Bolas are control-decks-in-a-card. They stabilize the game for you, they maintain control for you, and then win the game for you. For no mana investment once resolved to boot. In a single card. I remember a time when control finishers finished the game instead of playing it all and you needed to assemble combos and synergies to crank out repeatable effects. Nowadays, why bother? Why play the hulk-ramp-combo thing when the impact of a planeswalker or an Avenger of Zendikar in a standard ramp shell is so overwhelming anyway, you can just free the combo cog slots for removal and such. It's just irritating. At least in Pauper the cards still say "Hey, look at me, I'm awesome! IF you have a plan, that is..."

[Technics]

Wait, how is there no decision in stormcombo? Assembling a 2-card combo with possibly counter backup is alot less decision taking then getting a hand of 3-6 cards together that you need to combo off >.>

Obvious troll is obvious. Don't feed the troll.

[slave]

Is this thread actually about spoilers?

All I see is complaints about old cards for the last two pages.

[Aggro_zombies]

Is this thread actually about spoilers?

All I see is complaints about old cards for the last two pages.
Nothing quite like spoiler season to draw out the disgruntled old guard.

[Koby]

Nothing quite like spoiler season to draw out the disgruntled old guard.

Oh Spoiler Season, that wonderful time of year where brains turn to mush. 'Tis the season!

[Lord Seth]

Show and Tell is a terrible boring card.

Especially since Wizard comes out with at least one hideously stupid timmy bomb in every set now.

I don't miss Polar Kraken, but I do miss Plague Wind or Verdant Force; you know, expensive bomby spells that were actually fun and cool and not :rolleyes:

If I could erase the following cards from existence, I would:
Emrakul
Griselbrand
all the Praetors except Urabrask
Omniscience
and now Enter the InfiniteWhy would you erase them when by your own admittance, it's only Show and Tell that makes them problematic?

[csy]

we're casting magical spells. If you're the hurp durp mage that wants to summon on some centaurs and humans go for it. Im gonna go infinite and win as fast as possible.. Get off muh plane bruh.

[slave]

Domri Rade actually looks pretty good for casual - and I'm assuming it's gonna be standard fare too.
I may have to get a couple for my casual Beast deck, to go with Aether CHarge, Wirewood Savage & Rampaging Baloths etc.
It's got removal, card draw and a permanent creature pump. I think this little guy could make some creature-heavy decks fun again - but in Legacy?

Assuming a R/G deck is packing removal/bolts and loads of creatures, it may be fast enough at 3-CMC.
Do any of you think it's good enough to see play in Legacy?

[Aggro_zombies]

R/G/x Aggro hasn't been particularly playable in ages. Part of the issue is that aggro as a strategy isn't really rewarded right now, and the other part of the problem is that Domri seems like he does his best work in midrange aggro and there really isn't anything like that at the moment. Maverick wouldn't splash red for this guy when it has Elspeth, Ajani, and various Garruks at its disposal, and Zoo sees almost no play.

[Finn]

I can't wait for better cards to get spoiled so that you guys have something to actually talk about.

[TsumiBand]

R/G/x Aggro hasn't been particularly playable in ages. Part of the issue is that aggro as a strategy isn't really rewarded right now, and the other part of the problem is that Domri seems like he does his best work in midrange aggro and there really isn't anything like that at the moment. Maverick wouldn't splash red for this guy when it has Elspeth, Ajani, and various Garruks at its disposal, and Zoo sees almost no play.

Yeah, this is basically exactly right as I see it. I think Domri enables a deck that doesn't exist, some mythical midrange R/G deck that wants to draw fat that works with his first two abilities in such a way that you actually generate some CA just by drawing/having big dudes in your pile. Maybe that Standard Werewolf deck really likes him. There's not a deck for him in Legacy though, I don't think.

[Hanni]

Just because a G/R/x deck doesn't exist right now, doesn't mean it can't come into fruition. The reach of red is good against control, and the increased removal density is good against aggro. The format may not be favorable to that approach right now, but the format shifts all the time. Both Naya and Jund have lots of strong cards available to them already, and we have yet to see what Gruul brings in this set. The next Knight of the Reliquary maybe? I guess we will have to wait and see. As a deckbuilder, I love spoiler seasons :)

[FieryBalrog]

Just because a G/R/x deck doesn't exist right now, doesn't mean it can't come into fruition. The reach of red is good against control, and the increased removal density is good against aggro. The format may not be favorable to that approach right now, but the format shifts all the time. Both Naya and Jund have lots of strong cards available to them already, and we have yet to see what Gruul brings in this set. The next Knight of the Reliquary maybe? I guess we will have to wait and see. As a deckbuilder, I love spoiler seasons :)

Even if a G/R/x deck existed it wouldn't want Domri. His abilities just suck. His +1 is <40% even in the creature heaviest R/G deck you can imagine. His -2 is pretty mediocre. A lot of the time you'll lose your dude too, and sometimes you won't be able to kill their guy at all, whether it's a shrouded Mongoose, a giant KOTR, or a Griselbrand. Compare to Liliana OTV, who seems way better in Legacy yet sees fringe play at best.


You just don't like the card and that's it. It doesn't need to be banned because you happen to hate fatties that, despite everyone saying they are overpowered, get their enablers easily hated out, leaving their controllers open to truly fair cards, such as delver (/irony_off). Boring is a subjective concept, for example, I hate decks such as maverick and the other best-cards-of-their-colors-put-together decks, while some people like it. But just because I don't like it, doesn't mean KOTR or GSZ should be banned, for this is what I previously called "irrational hate". Nonetheless, the facts speak for themselves and they show that none of the fatty/show and tell decks are performing that well anymore, thus there is absolutely no reason to ban the core of a deck that underperforms based on biased hate only.

Maverick isn't even close to that. Mav doesn't even run SFM most of the time, the poster-boy white goodstuff card in Legacy. The best white cards in Legacy right now are SFM, Terminus and STP (obviously). Mav ran only one of those. It ran 0/1s and 1/1s for 1, and frikkin' Scryb Ranger. It's pretty much the anti-thesis of a goodstuff deck.

[Hanni]

Even if a G/R/x deck existed it wouldn't want Domri. His abilities just suck. His +1 is <40% even in the creature heaviest R/G deck you can imagine. His -2 is pretty mediocre. A lot of the time you'll lose your dude too, and sometimes you won't be able to kill their guy at all, whether it's a shrouded Mongoose, a giant KOTR, or a Griselbrand. Compare to Liliana OTV, who seems way better in Legacy yet sees fringe play at best.

Sure, without any library manipulation. Toss in some Libraries or possibly even Top's, and that % goes up drastically.

In a G/R midrange deck, the fight ability deals with lots of creatures. Sure, you can list some specific creatures it doesn't work against, but there are other removal options to both Naya and Jund that can deal with the more specific ones.

Liliana's functions are completely different to even try and draw a comparison to.

For the most part, it's a Planeswalker on cost for Legacy, that can gives G/R/x a card advantage engine that can also play a removal role against utility creatures. At 3 loyalty to start, a +1 ramp, and an ultimate at 7, I do not know how likely it will activate... but if the ultimate does resolve, it's probably gg.

I'm not saying Domri is absurd or anything, but I do believe it is Legacy playable.

[Aggro_zombies]

Just because a G/R/x deck doesn't exist right now, doesn't mean it can't come into fruition. The reach of red is good against control, and the increased removal density is good against aggro. The format may not be favorable to that approach right now, but the format shifts all the time. Both Naya and Jund have lots of strong cards available to them already, and we have yet to see what Gruul brings in this set. The next Knight of the Reliquary maybe? I guess we will have to wait and see. As a deckbuilder, I love spoiler seasons :)
Zoo is a deck that exists. Nobody plays Zoo because Maverick has largely superseded it.

That said, Domri is not that hot in this format compared to, say, Sylvan Library (better than his +1). The fight mechanic is not that hot either; your deck is either going to be little fast guys who won't kill shit or big slow guys who crush through anyway, and if you're in red you have Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Forked Bolt as on-color removal. The ultimate is irrelevant because it doesn't matter in-game probably 80-90% of the time.

The reach of red is also not good against Counterbalance, which is really good in control. Plus, with Terminus and an uncounterable Wrath at its disposal, the top control deck in the format right now is in a pretty good position to crush through R/G/x aggro.

[Hanni]

Zoo is a deck that exists. Nobody plays Zoo because Maverick has largely superseded it.


The reach of red is also not good against Counterbalance, which is really good in control. Plus, with Terminus and an uncounterable Wrath at its disposal, the top control deck in the format right now is in a pretty good position to crush through R/G/x aggro.


The format may not be favorable to that approach right now, but the format shifts all the time.

My quote pretty much sums up my response, but I'll elaborate a little more. Just because Zoo is not being played right now doesn't mean it's never going to be strong again. Of course, fast Zoo doesn't want Domri, but a big Zoo list might.

Counterbalance disappeared for years, and although I was still developing it during that time, I constantly heard people telling me that Counterbalance was no longer good in Legacy. It's finally reemerged and now people are back to saying "is really good in control," but that doesn't mean that it won't fall by the wayside again as the format eventually shifts to deal with Miracle Control.

Regardless, I still think Domri is Legacy playable. It's not spectacular, but a package of like 2 Sylvan 1 Domri sounds solid to me.

[Mr. Safety]

I remember posts/threads about a R/G/w Aggro-Loam deck a while back. Played Terravores, Crushers, and Knights as their beef. Domri seems good in a build like that...because using the 'fight' ability with a massive dude will make it a nice source of repeatable removal. Having StP's, Loam + cyclers + Wasteland, and a mix of Domri/Sylvan Library seems good to me. Twelve threats seems like enough to make it worth getting the 'scry 1', the fight ability becomes relevant, and the ultimate becomes a combo-win with any of the Big 12. That actually seems like a decent name for a deck like that...

Just a thought. Domri seems good with big dudes.

[slave]

Dryad Arbor likes Domri too.

[Barook]

I don't expect much from Gruul, actually. They were pretty bland the last time and I don't think they get much this time either, since RTR reinforced pretty clearly what color combinations the design team likes or dislikes. It isn't really suprising that Azorius and Golgari got the top goodies while Rakdos sucked yet again.

Dimir is probably going to be janky since Wizards cuts down on tutors, Gruul is probably meh as well, Boros might get 1-2 goodies, Simic might fare well while Orzhov gets the top stuff.

Gruul doesn't exactly have interesting design space to offer aside from mindless beatdown. R/G most interesting share was non-basic hate, but Wizard has completely abandoned that.

R/G needs better cards to become more attractive as a color combination. Aside from Kird Ape, its best cards cost 4 mana - Bloodbraid Elf and Huntmaster of the Fells. It would need something like KotR to become more playable.

That said, I just noticed that Domri kinda synergizes with Garruk Relentless - curves well and Deathtouch Wolves are ideal for fighting.

Edit: Domri's fighting ability works with Sarkhan Vol as well - steal a creature and let it and another creature of your opponent fight. Too bad Sarkhan sucks - just throwing ideas in.

[ZeinVoncy]

I can't wait for better cards to get spoiled so that you guys have something to actually talk about.

IMO, that planeswalker is pretty damn good. I feel that Zoo is slightly on the side, but with the variety offered nowadays along with this, Big Zoo could make a return. This guy is a "counter" or GG. Naya/Jund could make a scene, but then, I've seen even more bizarre things occur in the world of Magic.

[Hanni]

I remember posts/threads about a R/G/w Aggro-Loam deck a while back. Played Terravores, Crushers, and Knights as their beef. Domri seems good in a build like that...because using the 'fight' ability with a massive dude will make it a nice source of repeatable removal. Having StP's, Loam + cyclers + Wasteland, and a mix of Domri/Sylvan Library seems good to me. Twelve threats seems like enough to make it worth getting the 'scry 1', the fight ability becomes relevant, and the ultimate becomes a combo-win with any of the Big 12. That actually seems like a decent name for a deck like that...

Just a thought. Domri seems good with big dudes.

Aggro Loam doesn't need Domri. It already has tons of varied removal and a card advantage engine with Loam (and Confidant, in most lists). Aggro Loam also does not have nearly enough of a creature density to make it work.


Dryad Arbor likes Domri too.

Nice catch, I didn't even think of that.


I don't expect much from Gruul, actually. They were pretty bland the last time and I don't think they get much this time either, since RTR reinforced pretty clearly what color combinations the design team likes or dislikes. It isn't really suprising that Azorius and Golgari got the top goodies while Rakdos sucked yet again.

Dimir is probably going to be janky since Wizards cuts down on tutors, Gruul is probably meh as well, Boros might get 1-2 goodies, Simic might fare well while Orzhov gets the top stuff.

Gruul doesn't exactly have interesting design space to offer aside from mindless beatdown. R/G most interesting share was non-basic hate, but Wizard has completely abandoned that.

R/G needs better cards to become more attractive as a color combination. Aside from Kird Ape, its best cards cost 4 mana - Bloodbraid Elf and Huntmaster of the Fells. It would need something like KotR to become more playable.

That said, I just noticed that Domri kinda synergizes with Garruk Relentless - curves well and Deathtouch Wolves are ideal for fighting.

Edit: Domri's fighting ability works with Sarkhan Vol as well - steal a creature and let it and another creature of your opponent fight. Too bad Sarkhan sucks - just throwing ideas in.

Well, I'm hopeful that we will see a few good cards for Gruul. They made some very strong guild cards in RtR, and I don't see why they wouldn't toss a bone or two to Gruul. I know Rakdos got the shaft, but Wizards has printed some strong red/green cards in the past, albeit before the power creep. If there ever was a set for them to print a solid 1RG creature in, this would be the one. I also love the idea of them carrying some of the uncounterability clauses over to Gruul... a burn spell like "R: Deal 2 damage to target creature or player. This spell cannot be countered by spells or abilities" would be awesome, although I'm sure it would see more play in blue decks than nonblue decks unfortunately.

[slave]

....Rakdos got the shaft.

Are they afraid of making R/B a good option competitively - is it too powerful a colour combination?
And would we be talking only about standard that WoTC are wary of screwing up with overpowered R/B cards?
Seriously...
I love R/B casual decks, but for competitive - they have no flexibility, no back-up plan against so many strategies, and can't do jack about enchantments.
You'd think that would be enough of a handicap.
I hope they give something more to Rakdos, but I'm not holding my breath.

[AndyTron]

Domri might see play as a one or two of in those Deathrite Jund lists that are starting to pop up. As Hanni mentioned he seems pretty alright with Top/Library.

[Hanni]

Domri might see play as a one or two of in those Deathrite Jund lists that are starting to pop up. As Hanni mentioned he seems pretty alright with Top/Library.

And a large enough creature count.

[AndyTron]

And a large enough creature count.

Sure. That goes without saying.

[Barook]

Are they afraid of making R/B a good option competitively - is it too powerful a colour combination?
And would we be talking only about standard that WoTC are wary of screwing up with overpowered R/B cards?
They just can't into B/R card design.

What's the last memorable B/R card that isn't Terminate or a rip-off of another card like Dreadbore or Slaughter Games?

Exactly. Maybe Jagged Poppet if you feel generous.

[Apollo]

Rakdos got the shaft pretty good and to add insult to injury they were given far and away the worst charm of the bunch too. Don't forget the Blightning inspired Rakdos's Return too. Really I wish they would've just printed something in the vein of Havoc Festival for a reasonable casting cost, instead its just another bloated card that can't be played in constructed. I guess the keyrune turned out to be good, but that was probably by accident.

[Lord Seth]

What's the last memorable B/R card that isn't Terminate or a rip-off of another card like Dreadbore or Slaughter Games?Probably Olivia Voldaren.

[Aggro_zombies]

Domri might see play as a one or two of in those Deathrite Jund lists that are starting to pop up. As Hanni mentioned he seems pretty alright with Top/Library.
But if I already have Top/Library in my deck, do I really need Domri? And do I really need Domri over, say, Green Sun's Zenith? In order to have enough creatures to make sure Domri can hit on a regular basis, I need to be economical with my spell slots; I also don't want too many Tops or Libraries because they don't really do anything in multiples. That suggests a 2/2 Domri/Top or Library split, possibly adding the additional Top or Library since those cards are good without Domri, while Domri is not very good without library manipulation or board presence. If we assume a 12/25/23 split between spells, creatures, and lands, respectively, that leaves me with 7-8 slots for burn, discard, StP or Path, GSZ, equipment, or whatever else...that feels way too tight. I'd rather run 2 Library, 4 GSZ, and a lower creature count so I can fit more good spells in.

Domri also does not seem particularly good against control without library manipulation in play. Sure, if you have the manipulation he helps you gas up, but Elspeth doesn't need library manipulation at all to give you pressure on an otherwise empty board. Without the manipulation, the more his +1 whiffs, the farther behind you get. His -2 doesn't really do anything either, except arguably against Stoneblade, but in that matchup their Spirit tokens and Vindicates can pick off Domri fairly quickly and Domri himself is a poor solution to Batterskull. I guess he's okay against tempo, but hyper aggro R/G/x decks aren't too bad against tempo to begin with so I don't really count that as a point in his favor. The guy is also The Goggles versus combo of pretty much any stripe, though his -2 is arguably better than nothing against Dredge because you can set up trades or losing fights to nail their Bridges.

This guy is basically unplayable in this format. Should be good for Standard, though.

[slave]

.....This guy is basically unplayable in this format. Should be good for Standard, though.

And this is the point I guess.
Standard will slurp up this guy, and at 3-CMC it could be quite effective.

But for all the reason's above, I agree with you about Legacy play - apart from one thing.
I don't think it's unplayable, just simply very focussed, and unplayable outside a certain build.
I'm confidant it's at best a fringe card, similar to Tezz (agent of Bolas) or Liliana of the Veil - where they fit a very specific decks' need.

[Aggro_zombies]

But for all the reason's above, I agree with you about Legacy play - apart from one thing.
I don't think it's unplayable, just simply very focussed, and unplayable outside a certain build.
I'm confidant it's at best a fringe card, similar to Tezz (agent of Bolas) or Liliana of the Veil - where they fit a very specific decks' need.
Then I guess my questions are what kind of deck doesn't want GSZ but does want a three-mana card with two conditional abilities and a win-more ultimate, and whether such a deck will be any good or just a worse version of existing G/R/x aggro decks.

[Barook]

I wouldn't count out Domri so fast - we still don't know what Gruul is going to deliver and the card itself is brand-new. There might be interactions we haven't considered yet.

Sylvan Library/SDT sound like fine and dandy choices. But I think it might find a home in a Jund build with Volrath's Stronghold since they synergize extremely well with each other - Stronghold can provide 100% uptime on Domri while Domri gurantees you fresh draws (by clearing the Stronghold clog) and can kill off your utility creatures for Stronghold recycling.

[DragoFireheart]

That dragon might find some love in Vintage MUD decks.

[nedleeds]

Zoo is a deck that exists. Nobody plays Zoo because Maverick has largely superseded it.


Delver of Secrets was the nail in Zoo's coffin.

[Lemnear]

That dragon might find some love in Vintage MUD decks.

It's only application is VERSUS Workshop decks if you are running Oath. However, Griselbrand or Emrakul still do much better in this matchup so I would be irritated to see this Dragon in any deck

[ESG]

Delver of Secrets was the nail in Zoo's coffin.

Also, Terminus.

[Lemnear]

Also, Terminus.

And Batterskull.

In short: Zoo evolvied into Big Zoo into Maverick or parallel into RUG which also runs cheap creatures + burn but combines it with omnipotence of FoW+Brainstorm+Daze

[Barook]

The Simic mechanic is called Evolve.

Simic Fluxmage :2::u:
Creature - Merfolk Wizard
Evolve (Whenever a creature enters the battlefield under your control, if that creature has greater power or toughness than this creature, put a +1/+1 counter on this creature.)
:1::u:, T: Move a +1/+1 counter from Simic Fluxmage onto target creature.
1/2

[SirTylerGalt]

The Simic mechanic is called Evolve.

Simic Fluxmage :2::u:
Creature - Merfolk Wizard
Evolve (Whenever a creature enters the battlefield under your control, if that creature has greater power or toughness than this creature, put a +1/+1 counter on this creature.)
:1::u:, T: Move a +1/+1 counter from Simic Fluxmage onto target creature.
1/2

I wonder if you can respond to the "whenever a creature enters the battlefield under your control" trigger by moving a counter from Simic Fluxmage to the creature that just entered the battlefield, thus satisfying the condition "if that creature has greater power or toughness than this creature".

[Amon Amarth]

I wonder if you can respond to the "whenever a creature enters the battlefield under your control" trigger by moving a counter from Simic Fluxmage to the creature that just entered the battlefield, thus satisfying the condition "if that creature has greater power or toughness than this creature". I think so. It should check on resolution of the ability if it has greater P/T.

[SpikeyMikey]

I think so. It should check on resolution of the ability if it has greater P/T.

Absolutely not. It's a conditional triggered ability. The triggered ability is modified by an "if" clause. 603.4 of the comp rules states:

"A triggered ability may read "When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect]." When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise, it does nothing.

It goes on, but the long and short of it is it checks when the item would trigger and when it would resolve. At both times, the state that would trigger the ability must be true. Obviously, you did not play with enough Oath of Druids back in the day :P

[Oiolosse]

So, does it take into consideration Lord pumps first? Merfolk could use less lords and Evolve looks pretty cool.

EDIT: I guess not less lords, just ffs, no more.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yes, any state based effect like lords will be taken into account. I also don't see why you can't respond to a creature entering the battlefield by pumping it. The ability triggers on a creature entering the battlefield, it shouldn't check the p/t until resolution.

Also nice blue card Wizards. What does pumping creatures permanently have to do with blue? Oh, right, the "whatever the fuck I want" mechanic, everyone's favorite. It's okay, they share the ability with black, although if it were a black card you would of course have to pay 5 life, exile two cards from your hand and then give your opponent one of your kidneys every time you wanted to activate it, because, balance.

[troopatroop]

Yes, any state based effect like lords will be taken into account. I also don't see why you can't respond to a creature entering the battlefield by pumping it. The ability triggers on a creature entering the battlefield, it shouldn't check the p/t until resolution.

Also nice blue card Wizards. What does pumping creatures permanently have to do with blue? Oh, right, the "whatever the fuck I want" mechanic, everyone's favorite. It's okay, they share the ability with black, although if it were a black card you would of course have to pay 5 life, exile two cards from your hand and then give your opponent one of your kidneys every time you wanted to activate it, because, balance.

This forum needs a like button.

[Hardcore]

I hope every merfolk player buys a full set.

[Barook]

It's okay, they share the ability with black, although if it were a black card you would of course have to pay 5 life, exile two cards from your hand and then give your opponent one of your kidneys every time you wanted to activate it, because, balance.
Sad, but true. And considering B/x Zombie's performance in standard, i doubt we're going to get new, Legacy-playable black creatures anytime soon.

I still have hope that Orzhov could have some decent cards. Just like Wizards fails to design Rakdos cards that don't suck ass, they're also pretty good at designing good B/G (as AD and DRS have shown) and B/W cards.

[TsumiBand]

I don't see Merfolk giving a shit about this card. It's like an overcosted Quirion Dryad that never counts spells. If you're playing enough Lords and/or fat creatures to trigger this guy's ability, isn't it just superfluous?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Oh, no, it's a shitty constructed card, but it'll probably be a beast in limited, where every time I see it I will want to tear it to pieces for not being in green where it would make any kind of sense.


This forum needs a like button.

Upvote/downvote imo. What're we just posting like we're savages from the year 2005 or something for.

[Aggro_zombies]

Oh, no, it's a shitty constructed card, but it'll probably be a beast in limited, where every time I see it I will want to tear it to pieces for not being in green where it would make any kind of sense.
Blue has counter moving, such as Leech Bonder. It can also affect the size of creatures, via -X/-0 effects or +1/-1 or -1/+1 effects on its own creatures. This mechanic is a nice intersection of blue and green's size manipulation, and the counter moving thing is a blue part of the pie.


Upvote/downvote imo. What're we just posting like we're savages from the year 2005 or something for.
I thought we had one of these at one point? I seem to remember it being gotten rid of for reasons that now escape me.

[Tammit67]

Yes, any state based effect like lords will be taken into account. I also don't see why you can't respond to a creature entering the battlefield by pumping it. The ability triggers on a creature entering the battlefield, it shouldn't check the p/t until resolution.


It (as read from above) has an intervening if clause, so the creature will both have to have a greater power or toughness as it comes into play and during resolution

[Oiolosse]

I too think the ability is a nice balance. I don't think that that merfolk is playable but since it's merfolk I would like to see playable merfolks printed that AREN'T Lords.

I want there to be a Black/White relevant instant printed.

I want a badass U/G planeswalker. I'm sure that when they finally print one it will be solid.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Blue has counter moving, such as Leech Bonder. It can also affect the size of creatures, via -X/-0 effects or +1/-1 or -1/+1 effects on its own creatures. This mechanic is a nice intersection of blue and green's size manipulation, and the counter moving thing is a blue part of the pie.

+1/-1 and -1/+1 creatures are creatures of the same size changing shape. -X/-0 barely makes sense in blue but is largely a temporary enfeeblement. Have there been blue cards that provide permanent pump? Probably. There's also blue direct burn. Blue gets lots of stupid shit that doesn't make any sense.

[SpikeyMikey]

Yes, any state based effect like lords will be taken into account.

You actually mean continuous effects, but yes, continuous pump effects will be taken into account. But since it's a merfolk, if you play another merfolk with this out, it's not really going to matter as both are getting the same buff. And the P/T modifying effect from the fish lords is applied as soon as a merfolk hits the battlefield; there's never a point at which it's on the battlefield and doesn't get the pump. So the size of both will scale evenly.

[Aggro_zombies]

+1/-1 and -1/+1 creatures are creatures of the same size changing shape. -X/-0 barely makes sense in blue but is largely a temporary enfeeblement. Have there been blue cards that provide permanent pump? Probably. There's also blue direct burn. Blue gets lots of stupid shit that doesn't make any sense.
I think the flavor behind -X/-0 is not that the creature is any weaker, but that you're using a mental attack to confuse or exhaust it, thus sapping its ability to fight (though not its resistance to damage, hence the toughness stays the same). Blue is also the color of polymorphing - both the original effect of turning one creature into another and changing a creature's shape more generally (Turn to Frog). I imagine this is a stretch from that which is allowed because the Simic are the green/blue guild.

I was always under the impression that guild identity mattered more than individual color identity in Ravnica. I mean, since when can white clone shit (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253529)?

[Barook]

I was always under the impression that guild identity mattered more than individual color identity in Ravnica.
Exactly. Otherwise, black wouldn't have gotten Deathrite Shaman.

Black had fast mana (Rituals) in the past and some color-filtering dorks, but never a reuseable mana dork who taps for any kind of mana.

[TsumiBand]

I was always under the impression that guild identity mattered more than individual color identity in Ravnica. I mean, since when can white clone shit (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253529)?

Yeah this is exactly why Blue gets a growable creature. Has nothing to do with Blue getting to do "whatever it wants". It's clearly less a 'Blue' ability and more a 'Simic' ability. In its block, it will most likely be useless without larger Green creatures in hand, which will probably just already be big enough to obviate the mechanic. Then again, Unleash looked like shit on paper and I've found it to be surprisingly playable, so maybe I'm wrong on this. In fact if it's aggressively costed it will probably be much more playable than Unleash in constructed. This one example though, is hardly worth getting upset over.

[Darkenslight]

Yeah this is exactly why Blue gets a growable creature. Has nothing to do with Blue getting to do "whatever it wants". It's clearly less a 'Blue' ability and more a 'Simic' ability. In its block, it will most likely be useless without larger Green creatures in hand, which will probably just already be big enough to obviate the mechanic. Then again, Unleash looked like shit on paper and I've found it to be surprisingly playable, so maybe I'm wrong on this. In fact if it's aggressively costed it will probably be much more playable than Unleash in constructed. This one example though, is hardly worth getting upset over.

I actually think this won't be relevant in Gatecrash but rather for Dragon's Maze, as the interaction between Evolve and Unleash is really rather amusing. In case you didn't notice, it turns off the Unleash creature's ability to block at will.

[TsumiBand]

I actually think this won't be relevant in Gatecrash but rather for Dragon's Maze, as the interaction between Evolve and Unleash is really rather amusing. In case you didn't notice, it turns off the Unleash creature's ability to block at will.

I have literally never found myself wanting to block with any Unleash creatures (who blocks in a Sligh deck?), so I'm not certain that this is really that fantastic? But yeah, I bet that will happen in a draft somewhere.

[ESG]

This mechanic is a nice intersection of blue and green's size manipulation, and the counter moving thing is a blue part of the pie.

Didn't this ability start out as green with the Spike creatures in Tempest block?

[Aggro_zombies]

Didn't this ability start out as green with the Spike creatures in Tempest block?
Size-changing in blue has a long history: stuff like Anthroplasm, Coral Reef, Essence Flare, Homarid, and Unstable Mutation. My guess is that blue and green are allowed to overlap in moving counters around.

[(nameless one)]

Yup. Evolve is the new Simic ability:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138065&d=1356325358

[KobeBryan]

Yup. Evolve is the new Simic ability:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138065&d=1356325358

dredge with this badboy

[Aggro_zombies]

So...if I Increasing Savagery her, do I draw five cards? I assume she triggers for each counter.

[TsumiBand]

So...if I Increasing Savagery her, do I draw five cards? I assume she triggers for each counter.

That's how I read it, although that would mean you're playing a 1/1 for 4 and a terribad sorcery.

I guess it would be sort of funny to draw cards off ofBounty of the Hunt. Something something Doubling Season something something.

[SpikeyMikey]

Interesting for Standard, but no place for it in Legacy, not at that CMC. Cold-Eyed Selkie seems miles better and it's been a fringe card forever. I definitely like it, however.

[Gheizen64]

Would've been probably fringe playable at UG.

[Angelfire]

Would've been probably fringe playable at UG.

Card would be nuts at 2 mana. Cards like Goyf And Rhox Warmonk would be cantrips while growing her into a decent beater.

[rufus]

Interesting for Standard, but no place for it in Legacy, not at that CMC. Cold-Eyed Selkie seems miles better and it's been a fringe card forever. I definitely like it, however.

Yeah. Maybe in a Momir Vig, Simic Visionary EDH deck too..

[Aggro_zombies]

Card would be nuts at 2 mana. Cards like Goyf And Rhox Warmonk would be cantrips while growing her into a decent beater.
The card would be nuts at two mana in Standard. In Legacy, you'd need to cast 3-4 creatures to make it actually worth attacking with her, and in the interim she's just a really, really bad Sylvan Library. Maybe in Maverick, but that deck runs a lot of 1/1 and 2/1 creatures, so it would be very hard to make her larger.

[Gheizen64]

Card would be nuts at 2 mana. Cards like Goyf And Rhox Warmonk would be cantrips while growing her into a decent beater.

At UG, if you play another creature after it, it's comparable to Coiling Oracle. If this get removed before you cast any other creature, it sucks. Arbor, Mom, SFM, Delver, the new hybrid 1/1 mana dork and Hierarch doesn't count as creature for its ability. If you get to cast 3-4 creatures after it, and it never get removed, well i think you're winning here. Remember also that after it get the first +1+1 counter, basically only Goyf and KotR trigger it. Thalia doesn't, Pridemage doesn't, Gaddock doesn't etc...

Too much work for what? A 2/2 that draw you a card for UG? Seems fringe playable to me. Baleful stryx would probably be the better card, having evasion, drawing the card instantly, and trading with fat eldrazis/Kotr/Goyfs.

[(nameless one)]

If she costed 3 or less, would she be good in Aluren.dec?

Flash her via Aluren, then flash in Cavern Harpy and while Evolve trigger is on the stack, return the harpy back to your hand. Do that enough to draw most of your library and Evolve triggers will resolve that many times.

It is also pitchable to Force of Will.

[Nihil Credo]

If she costed 3 or less, would she be good in Aluren.dec?

Flash her via Aluren, then flash in Cavern Harpy and while Evolve trigger is on the stack, return the harpy back to your hand. Do that enough to draw most of your library and Evolve triggers will resolve that many times.

It is also pitchable to Force of Will.The trigger has an intervening-if clause. It will fizzle if the condition is no longer true on resolution.

Random casual combos with Fathom Mage: Sage of Fables, Spike Rogue, Cytoplast Rootkin. Also Lllanowar Reborn to guarantee a cantrip.

[Oiolosse]

Neat card but they fucked up the mana cost. 2UG is straight retarded. EDH fun maybe.

[Barook]

Random casual combos with Fathom Mage: Sage of Fables, Spike Rogue, Cytoplast Rootkin. Also Lllanowar Reborn to guarantee a cantrip.

In Standard, they're probably going with some kind of Bant build that spams Gavony Township.

Ridiculous card advantage with multiple copies in play.

[Barook]

Gruul mechanic is out:

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q16/jimmy2do/card_zps333b53dc.png

I guess Bloodrush might be based on the P/T of the creature discarded this way.

It also looks like Gruul is going to have a "land matters" sub-theme.

[Aggro_zombies]

Boring mechanic for a boring guild.

In before people start complaining about Gruul getting shafted a la Rakdos.

[Megadeus]

YEah somewhat boring of a mechanic. Im tired of all these put a +1 +1 counter mechanics like simic/rakdos. So boring. Give me something fresh! Detain was sweet. I think they nerfed the cards though. They were worried about tempo being too powerful I think

[Aggro_zombies]

YEah somewhat boring of a mechanic. Im tired of all these put a +1 +1 counter mechanics like simic/rakdos. So boring. Give me something fresh! Detain was sweet. I think they nerfed the cards though. They were worried about tempo being too powerful I think
Nuts detain decks are a huge beating in Limited - more so than Rakdos, even. It can very frustrating to play against.

What's interesting about Bloodrush is that it seems similar to some of the early Scavenge iterations, where the bonus was until EoT. Those, if I remember correctly, were too weak in playtesting. What gives here? I guess Gruul is a more aggro guild, but still...pitching creature cards for temporary bonuses doesn't seem that great, especially if it's only on attacking creatures. I guess the "right" way to do it would be to cast a bunch of little early guys and then swing in hard, discarding your top-end guys, but that seems like a strategy that leaves you open more often than not.

Still probably better than Unleash, though, in the sense that your plan B of just casting big guys is better than casting your little aggro dorks on the leash.

The land subtheme is interesting, though. I wonder if there will be any good ramp coming out of this color combination.

[Megadeus]

Nuts detain decks are a huge beating in Limited - more so than Rakdos, even. It can very frustrating to play against.

What's interesting about Bloodrush is that it seems similar to some of the early Scavenge iterations, where the bonus was until EoT. Those, if I remember correctly, were too weak in playtesting. What gives here? I guess Gruul is a more aggro guild, but still...pitching creature cards for temporary bonuses doesn't seem that great, especially if it's only on attacking creatures. I guess the "right" way to do it would be to cast a bunch of little early guys and then swing in hard, discarding your top-end guys, but that seems like a strategy that leaves you open more often than not.

Still probably better than Unleash, though, in the sense that your plan B of just casting big guys is better than casting your little aggro dorks on the leash.

The land subtheme is interesting, though. I wonder if there will be any good ramp coming out of this color combination.
Sounds like you are essentially playing all in infect. Think this may find a place in infect decks in modern/Legacy? An Uncounterable version.

[Deviruchi]

Name: Rubblehulk
Cost: 4RG
Type: Creature - Elemental
Pow/Tgh: */*
Rules Text: Rubblehulk's power and toughness are each equal to the number of lands you control.
Bloodrush - {1}{R}{G}, Discard Rubblehulk: Target attacking creature gets +X/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of lands you control.


Bloodrushing a rare card and not getting trample?

[Barook]

Bloodrushing a rare card and not getting trample?
We still don't know for sure how exactly the Bloodrush mechanic works, whether the mana cost and pump is variable. There might be chance that it could grant abilities like Deathtouch as well.

[sco0ter]

It is also interesting to note, that Evolve is a keyword ability, while Bloodrush is a ability word. You can also see it in the italic font style.

All other mechanics in the RtR guilds are also keyword abilities or keyword actions.

[Barook]

It is also interesting to note, that Evolve is a keyword ability, while Bloodrush is a ability word. You can also see it in the italic font style.

All other mechanics in the RtR guilds are also keyword abilities or keyword actions.
How is that important? :eyebrow:

I'm also totally expecting this card:

Gruul Bear :1::g:
Creature - something
Bloodrush :g:: +2/+2
2/2

[sco0ter]

How is that important? :eyebrow:

It doesn't feel like a true guild mechanic to me, because every card will have another effect. This one involves the number of lands, but other Bloodrush cards won't.

[DrJones]

So, is this keyword the same as the channel keyword with a different name? Will also be uncounterable?

[dunk]

I like bloodrush. At the end of the day it's another variant of cycling but instead of drawing a card you get to pump a creature. Seems pretty good, if you screw you can use your fatties as tricks and if you draw bears later in the game they can be used as tricks as well. Anything that decreases variance is very welcome.

[TsumiBand]

I hope it does work like Channel-but-not; just turning your guys into combat tricks is real bad, especially if it's worse than Giant Growth most of the time. I rocked the shit out of some Gruul beats back in the day. Guys and burn man, best deck in the world.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Bloodrush-able RG burn effect, as long as it isn't complete ass. Bloodrush RG to Lightning Bolt would be playable (in Standard). If the variety of effects is reasonable, it might not be as bad as this one card makes it look. Also this guy being a large/large makes me wonder if they're pushing the imaginary RG midrange deck that the RG walker Domri would try to enable.

[crow_mw]

Damn, Gruul guild mechanics that has no synergy with Green Sun's Zenith. That sucks, but maybe at least we can have a 4-5 CC GSZ 'finisher', that has a decent bloodrush ability in case you draw him. People seem to think Gruul will suck, but last Gruul expansion brought us Zilla Stompy, one of the best decks ever, so I am still hoping. I am really looking forward to an up-to-date Burning Tree Shaman.

[Aggro_zombies]

I hope it does work like Channel-but-not; just turning your guys into combat tricks is real bad, especially if it's worse than Giant Growth most of the time. I rocked the shit out of some Gruul beats back in the day. Guys and burn man, best deck in the world.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Bloodrush-able RG burn effect, as long as it isn't complete ass. Bloodrush RG to Lightning Bolt would be playable (in Standard). If the variety of effects is reasonable, it might not be as bad as this one card makes it look. Also this guy being a large/large makes me wonder if they're pushing the imaginary RG midrange deck that the RG walker Domri would try to enable.
According to MaRo, Bloodrush is turning your guys into combat tricks (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/38784841879/can-you-tell-us-what-bloodrush-actually-does-since).

[Megadeus]

According to MaRo, Bloodrush is turning your guys into combat tricks (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/38784841879/can-you-tell-us-what-bloodrush-actually-does-since).

Well that blows ass. Will probably be decent in limited, but hooray for unplayable RG in Standard!

[Rizso]

Combat trix that are versetile are fine cards even in constructed look at gw charm from rtr.

[Barook]

According to MaRo, Bloodrush is turning your guys into combat tricks (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/38784841879/can-you-tell-us-what-bloodrush-actually-does-since).
That was to be expected.

I'm not expecting much, but maybe there is some decent P/T card that slipped their testing. As for Domri - I'm still waiting to see him perform in a Jund shell with both Sylvan Library and Volrath's Stronghold for maximum shenanigans.

[Megadeus]

That was to be expected.

I'm not expecting much, but maybe there is some decent P/T card that slipped their testing. As for Domri - I'm still waiting to see him perform in a Jund shell with both Sylvan Library and Volrath's Stronghold for maximum shenanigans.

The only deck I can think of would be like Jund Nic Fit.

[TsumiBand]

According to MaRo, Bloodrush is turning your guys into combat tricks (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/38784841879/can-you-tell-us-what-bloodrush-actually-does-since).

Ugh, whatever.

[from Cairo]

On the right card the Bloodrush mechanic could be solid. Something like a Gruul Skyshroud Elite with a 1-hybrid Bloodrush or something along those lines, seems like it might have potential. An acceptable 1 drop with the ability to be ~Giant Growth? Idk Zoo isn't seeing much play, but the next two sets could provide some interesting options.

[Aggro_zombies]

My assumption is Bloodrush is strong in Limited.

Orzhov and Dimir are defensive guilds, for the most part. Dimir usually wants to mill people out (although IIRC there was a UB aggro flying deck that was not bad), and Orzhov is a slow bleed kind of control deck. Simic are probably positioned to be the midgame guild like Selesnya currently is. Boros is probably blitzy aggro (like Rakdos), so that leaves Gruul as the slightly slower aggro option. You probably don't have to Bloodrush too many unblocked guys to kill the opponent, and blocking against a solid Gruul deck will likely be difficult and/or painful as long as they have cards in hand and mana open. The red Bloodrush cards will probably be pretty standard stuff in Boros (especially if there are cheap ones), which will make it more awkward to stabilize against that guild.

But we'll see. We still don't know what the other three guild mechanics are, nor do we know what Bloodrush cards there are.

[SpikeyMikey]

Battalion is an interesting ability. There are very few decks that want to be attacking with 3 or more creatures, but the ones that stand out would be Boros or Zoo. Let's see if they have a 1 or 2 drop with battalion, a la Rakdos Cackler. Anything more expensive than 2 mana will be unplayable in Legacy. For Standard, makes you wonder about WBR though. Lingering Souls plus battalion effects? Seems like a winner.

[Aggro_zombies]

Battalion is an interesting ability. There are very few decks that want to be attacking with 3 or more creatures, but the ones that stand out would be Boros or Zoo. Let's see if they have a 1 or 2 drop with battalion, a la Rakdos Cackler. Anything more expensive than 2 mana will be unplayable in Legacy. For Standard, makes you wonder about WBR though. Lingering Souls plus battalion effects? Seems like a winner.
The new Angel plus Huntmaster seem like a pretty sick pair of four-drops for a Zoo deck. You get Call, Selesnya Charm, Dryad Militant, and whatever good little guys come out of Boros and Gruul.

[Barook]

Considering Aurelia's ability, I kinda expected something attack-centric as ability. With the Boros preview today and the preview cards seemingly sharing a color with the card from the day before, we're going to get Orzhov tomorrow (shared color :w:) and Dimir on friday (shared color :b:).

How does the ability interact with cards like Geist of Saint Traft or Hero of Bladehold?

Maybe there's a cool goblin with Battalion?

[Gheizen64]

Yeah i see only a 1 or 2-drop goblin with battalion as relevant in legacy. Unless the ability can be something different than helix, of course.

[Rizso]

Considering Aurelia's ability, I kinda expected something attack-centric as ability. With the Boros preview today and the preview cards seemingly sharing a color with the card from the day before, we're going to get Orzhov tomorrow (shared color :w:) and Dimir on friday (shared color :b:).

How does the ability interact with cards like Geist of Saint Traft or Hero of Bladehold?

Maybe there's a cool goblin with Battalion?

Sadly neither traft or hero will trigger the battalion effect as the tokens arent assigned attackers.

The Battalion effect can pretty much have any crazy stuff happendnig as it can be balanced with how many creatures that actually have to attack to trigger it.

Does the mana cost on the goblin even matter if its really good and doesnt cost 6cc+?

[trivial_matters]

Battalion seems like it could go well together with normal tokens though.

EDIT: Too bad Firemane Avenger doesn't have haste. A one- or two-drop Battalion dude with haste would be quite strong. Helix on that one would probably be too good.

EDIT2: I like Battalion more than Bloodrush already. Bloodrush looks like it's going to be useless.

[Barook]

The Battalion effect can pretty much have any crazy stuff happendnig as it can be balanced with how many creatures that actually have to attack to trigger it.
I'm pretty sure it's always going to be this creature + 2 other ones.

The design space certainly is more interesting than Bloodrush. But I wouldn't get up my hopes to high.

Battalion screams "overextending" and "win-more". Unless you run stuff like Lingering Souls or Elspeth, I doubt you'll fulfill the condition very often. But maybe there's a good, efficient 1- or 2-drop since the ability has massive synergy with itself if you have multiple battalion dudes.

[TsumiBand]

Battalion looks way, way better than both of the other spoiled abilities.

EDIT - though sadly this probably means no Lightning Helix reprint :/ meh oh well

[SpikeyMikey]

I'm pretty sure it's always going to be this creature + 2 other ones.

The design space certainly is more interesting than Bloodrush. But I wouldn't get up my hopes to high.

Battalion screams "overextending" and "win-more". Unless you run stuff like Lingering Souls or Elspeth, I doubt you'll fulfill the condition very often. But maybe there's a good, efficient 1- or 2-drop since the ability has massive synergy with itself if you have multiple battalion dudes.

To be fair, that's what I thought about battle cry. And that was true in Legacy, but in Modern and Standard, it is/was a playable mechanic.

[Barook]

EDIT - though sadly this probably means no Lightning Helix reprint :/ meh oh well
They're probably throwing the Lightning Helix fans a bone, hence the preview.

I'm actually quite happy there's no reprint. That means there's design space open to create a new :r::w: spell. Even Dreadbore wouldn't have been too shabby if it hadn't been in a shitty color combination and completely overshadowed by Abrupt Decay. And the current burn is rather shitty in Standard right now - maybe because Boros provides some sweet, new burn spell.

@SpikeyMikey:
I was talking about Legacy. Battalion might be very well standard-playable, especially the white cards. I'm still betting that Orzhov is going to be a powerhouse card-wise (not necessarily guild-mechanic-wise).

[Aggro_zombies]

EDIT2: I like Battalion more than Bloodrush already. Bloodrush looks like it's going to be useless.
This may be mostly true in Constructed (who really knows, at this point), but in Limited, I suspect it will be the other way around. Combat tricks are way more flexible than "You need three creatures that can profitably attack."

Now, Boros could have a big token subtheme. That would help Battalion a lot.

[Humphrey]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8wk8nKXRaE

[TsumiBand]

They're probably throwing the Lightning Helix fans a bone, hence the preview.

I'm actually quite happy there's no reprint. That means there's design space open to create a new :r::w: spell. Even Dreadbore wouldn't have been too shabby if it hadn't been in a shitty color combination and completely overshadowed by Abrupt Decay. And the current burn is rather shitty in Standard right now - maybe because Boros provides some sweet, new burn spell.

@SpikeyMikey:
I was talking about Legacy. Battalion might be very well standard-playable, especially the white cards. I'm still betting that Orzhov is going to be a powerhouse card-wise (not necessarily guild-mechanic-wise).

I'm holding out for a decent :r::g: equivalent to the Helix template; Bolt something + an in-color effect that doesn't suck. Unfortunately I think they hit the ball out of the park with Helix, it's just a really solid aggro-control burn spell that sets the bar pretty high for any Rx equivalent. Too bad Bloodrush is apparently just for combat tricks, an uncounterable RG burn spell would have been acceptable. vOv You're totally right about the weird burn in Standard though, hopefully one of the red guilds represents something in the upcoming expansions.

Another upshot of Battalion is that, as long as the playable cards are reasonably on-par with the Helix effect, I don't think that it can be totally considered over-extending in the traditional sense. Ever since I started playing Magic it seemed like in any format with a 4cmc Wrath effect, 3 creatures in play on one side of the board was instantly an indicator that you were overextending and just prepping yourself to get blown out. Sure, there's things like Terminus and Verdict floating around, but as long as the Battalion effects are so good at mimicking spells I'd be willing to leverage the effect one gains from controlling and attacking with 3 creatures against the potential for being blown out. If just attacking with my creatures allows me to kill x/3s before blockers and do whatever-the-hell else, I'm generating CA just by turning dudes sideways. Instead of blowing 2 burn spells on an x/6, I just hit it once with the Avenger's Helix and again with a Searing Spear, so that's turning what should have been a 2-for-1 into an even trade. And there's always just burning suckers on their fase FTW, which is probably my favorite way to win. Guys guys guys burn burn burn.

[Barook]

I'm holding out for a decent :r::g: equivalent to the Helix template; Bolt something + an in-color effect that doesn't suck. Unfortunately I think they hit the ball out of the park with Helix, it's just a really solid aggro-control burn spell that sets the bar pretty high for any Rx equivalent. Too bad Bloodrush is apparently just for combat tricks, an uncounterable RG burn spell would have been acceptable. vOv You're totally right about the weird burn in Standard though, hopefully one of the red guilds represents something in the upcoming expansions.
But what can we realistically expect? The uncounterable cycle won't be continued in Gatecrash for whatever reason.

With the "land matters" theme of Gruul, I could see Bolt + ramp effect happening at :1::r::g:. That would be unplayable for Legacy, though.

Bolt + Giant Growth at :r::g: would be sexy, but I doubt Wizards would print a rather unconditional 6 damage spell at two mana.

[Aggro_zombies]

Bolt + Giant Growth at :r::g: would be sexy, but I doubt Wizards would print a rather unconditional 6 damage spell at two mana.
Considering how good Consume Strength was in Limited, at one more mana, and one less point of boosting and killing...

Gruul Charm might be decent if one of the modes is "Destroy target nonbasic land," but that seems really powerful.

[TsumiBand]

But what can we realistically expect? The uncounterable cycle won't be continued in Gatecrash for whatever reason.

With the "land matters" theme of Gruul, I could see Bolt + ramp effect happening at :1::r::g:. That would be unplayable for Legacy, though.

Bolt + Giant Growth at :r::g: would be sexy, but I doubt Wizards would print a rather unconditional 6 damage spell at two mana.

Yeah I dunno. Being able to Bolt + put a Forest into play seems good, but would be tantamount to a Time Walk against a lot of aggressive decks. It's hard to imagine something that isn't either terrible or ruins drafting - invoking a Consume Strength parallel is apt in this regard, since Bolt + Growth would just be the nut in a ton of situations.

The handful of hints from Gruul is that it's all about the big beaters; Domri and 6-drop guy are hinting at a ramp-and-bash approach, which is really too bad because the previous mechanic (Bloodthirst) was all about drawing blood early and often and benefitting from it. Somewhere a Scab-Clan Mauler is crying into a pillow.

[Barook]

Gruul Charm might be decent if one of the modes is "Destroy target nonbasic land," but that seems really powerful.
A simple Stone Rain costs 4 mana in Standard currently. It would cost at least :3::r::g: if that was the case.

Hard to tell what the Gruul Charm is about, though - can they recycle options from the RtR charms? Because destroy target artifact seems like a natural fit. I can imagine that the green side could have a ramp effect, though.


Yeah I dunno. Being able to Bolt + put a Forest into play seems good, but would be tantamount to a Time Walk against a lot of aggressive decks.
Standard is already a non-stop, 24/7 ramp orgy (with very few exceptions) - it's disgusting to watch. I wouldn't put it past Wizards to print some burn ramp, especially with the current burn situation in Standard.

[Gheizen64]

Gruul Charm - RG
Instant
Not as awesome (this card can't be casted by islands or pitched to force of will)
Choose one - search your library for a basic land, reveal it, and add it to your hand, or, destroy target non-creature artifact, or, deal 1 damage to each creature and player

Definitely has not as awesome.

While bolt ramp is for sure not an option, i could easily see:

Burning Search RG
Sorcery
Search your library for a basic land, reveal it, and add it to your hand. Burning Growth deal 2 damage to all opponents.

I'd love to see

Burning Growth RG
Instant
Target creature get +3+3, deal 3 to target player.

[TsumiBand]

Standard is already a non-stop, 24/7 ramp orgy (with very few exceptions) - it's disgusting to watch. I wouldn't put it past Wizards to print some burn ramp, especially with the current burn situation in Standard.

Compare it to like, Exploding Borders though. That's a :2::r::g: Sorcery that finds a land and deals Domain damage to a player. If I'm just talking about like 2-mana burn spells, there's just no fucking way. Maybe a sorcery Bolt + Rampant Growth for :r::g:. I might even play such a card. It'd be an interesting foil to Deathrite Shaman; burn your stupid guy, get a land, have 4 mana on turn 3 (more if my own DRS lives). And would still never see real play b/c Sorcery speed. Meh.

[Barook]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138121&d=1356584499

Extort seems rather interesting IF it's on cheap guys.

[Fizzeler]

Well it is flavorful and is much better than Haunt

I am curious if there will be Orzhov specific cards that check when you Extort a spell

[Barook]

Well it is flavorful and is much better than Haunt

I am curious if there will be Orzhov specific cards that check when you Extort a spell
I doubt that.

What's possible, however, are life gain/loss triggers. Same thing, just more flexible with a lot of cards.

[TsumiBand]

Gives all your spells Kicker :wb:? Eh. Maybe there will be an Ajani's Pridemate type card to get value out of it, but otherwise that seems way worse than Haunt. Seize the Soul was usually just a giant blowout in Limited, this seems lackluster by comparison.

How does this 'play nice' with Haunt, anyway? So far I've thematically understood the rest of the mechanics as they relate back to original Ravnica keywords, but Extort AFAICT doesn't explicitly work with Haunt (except that things that Haunt are spells for a while). Seems real meh.

[Aggro_zombies]

Gives all your spells Kicker :wb:? Eh. Maybe there will be an Ajani's Pridemate type card to get value out of it, but otherwise that seems way worse than Haunt. Seize the Soul was usually just a giant blowout in Limited, this seems lackluster by comparison.

How does this 'play nice' with Haunt, anyway? So far I've thematically understood the rest of the mechanics as they relate back to original Ravnica keywords, but Extort AFAICT doesn't explicitly work with Haunt (except that things that Haunt are spells for a while). Seems real meh.
Unleash doesn't really synergize with Hellbent.

Detain doesn't really synergize with Forecast.

Overload and Replicate actively compete for mana in the late game.

It's not that the mechanics work together, it's that the individual cards do. The guilds were meant to feel cohesive.

[Vacrix]

God I'm so disappointed in these keywords. The keywords in the last Ravnica set were SO FUCKING AWESOME compared to these. Dredge? Yeah.. created an entire archetype. Even the meh keywords like Radiance, Convoke, Forecast, Graft, Haunt, and Convoke were at least fun to draft with. Then, of course, we got Hellbent and Replicate which see minor amount of play in Legacy.. and, of course, Dredge.

Outside of keywords though, if you just glance through Ravnica block.. you'll notice that there are a RETARDED number of cards that have been tried or currently played in Legacy decks. So far.. the new Ravnica block looks like complete shit. I was really hoping for a 'RETURN to Ravnica' but instead RND 'Shit All Over Ravnica'.

[Aggro_zombies]

God I'm so disappointed in these keywords. The keywords in the last Ravnica set were SO FUCKING AWESOME compared to these. Dredge? Yeah.. created an entire archetype. Even the meh keywords like Radiance, Convoke, Forecast, Graft, Haunt, and Convoke were at least fun to draft with. Then, of course, we got Hellbent and Replicate which see minor amount of play in Legacy.. and, of course, Dredge.

Outside of keywords though, if you just glance through Ravnica block.. you'll notice that there are a RETARDED number of cards that have been tried or currently played in Legacy decks. So far.. the new Ravnica block looks like complete shit. I was really hoping for a 'RETURN to Ravnica' but instead RND 'Shit All Over Ravnica'.
...? Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman have more or less made black/green a real color combination in the format for the first time in years.

Also, Dredge is broken. Using that as the standard to judge the new mechanics seems a bit unfair.

Have you drafted RtR at all? It's quite an interesting format.

[Octopusman]

+10 for thrulls. White thrulls!

Mechanic is terribad.
Surprised they limit it to once. Would be more interesting if you could spend as much W/B as you want.

I'm trying not to make snap judgements. I'm sure we'll be drooling over some playables soon enough.

[Amon Amarth]

I really like Extort if only because it's flavorful and seems fun in EDH which none of the other mechanics do.

[Vacrix]

...? Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman have more or less made black/green a real color combination in the format for the first time in years.

Also, Dredge is broken. Using that as the standard to judge the new mechanics seems a bit unfair.

Have you drafted RtR at all? It's quite an interesting format.Haven't drafted it yet but I can see why the mechanics would be cool for draft. OG Ravnica drafts were fucking awesome though.

Yes Deathrite and Abrupt Decay are fantastic. If you recall, I said a while back that Deathrite was going to wreck shit even though everyone else was saying it had 3 mediocre abilities. Other cards that seem playable from RtR.. Desecration Demon, Detention Sphere, Dryad Militant, Judge's Familiar, Lotleth Troll, Nivmagus Elemental, Rest in Peace, Supreme Verdict.. not bad.

Actually quite a lot of playables. More than OG Ravnica in fact (Dark Confidant and Life from the Loam being the most relevant). I'm more disappointed that Legacy is just getting new staples instead of new keywords. Affinity and Dredge to my knowledge have been the most successful mechanics. I wish they would focus more on making awesome mechanics that can bring some new archetypes to Legacy. And since they are interested in popularizing modern.. perhaps they will take this focus. I think cards like Dryad Militant, Judge's Familiar, Lotleth Troll, Nivmagus Elemental were all steps in the right direction.. namely the one drops. These cards each have the potential to produce some very interesting new archetypes.

[catmint]

I'm more disappointed that Legacy is just getting new staples instead of new keywords. Affinity and Dredge to my knowledge have been the most successful mechanics.
One could say Miracles ist the most successful mechanic. I am not to judge though if this was the creation of a new archetype or just the reviving/improving of an existing one.

[Barook]

One could say Miracles ist the most successful mechanic. I am not to judge though if this was the creation of a new archetype or just the reviving/improving of an existing one.
I don't think it's an archetype by its own. It's rather a variant of Counter-Top with a cheap sweeper and a win-con out of its ass. SDT is its main enabler. If Top ever was to be banned, Miracles would die out because BS and Jace alone couldn't carry its shenanigans so successfully.

[rufus]

...
Extort seems rather interesting IF it's on cheap guys.

I guess it could matter for reach and may be a house in limited, but direct damage at 1 mana for 1 damage is marginal in legacy.

[lyracian]

I guess it could matter for reach and may be a house in limited, but direct damage at 1 mana for 1 damage is marginal in legacy.
It is a drain life effect since you gain one life as well.
I would agree that if all you get for one mana is a 1/1 Extort Critter is not going to do much in Legacy; if it comes on a decent creature it could be a good mana sink when top decking and another card for offsetting life loss from Bob.

[Barook]

It is a drain life effect since you gain one life as well.
I would agree that if all you get for one mana is a 1/1 Extort Critter is not going to do much in Legacy; if it comes on a decent creature it could be a good mana sink when top decking and another card for offsetting life loss from Bob.
I think to really make an impact, it would need to be a decent creature that also gets you further benefits when it extorts. As mentioned above, something like Pridemate, or discard, or whatever else benefit you could get out of those colors.

E.g. something like "If an opponent has lost life and you gained life this turn, do stuff". Would also work wonders with lifelink, which is also a shared ability between those colors.

[Greenpoe]

It is a drain life effect since you gain one life as well.
I would agree that if all you get for one mana is a 1/1 Extort Critter is not going to do much in Legacy; if it comes on a decent creature it could be a good mana sink when top decking and another card for offsetting life loss from Bob.

A 1-mana extort card could see fringe play if you've got ways of abusing it by casting lots of spells for low or no cost (such as when you have 2 Tops out). It would see play in some Gravecrawler deck.

[Darkenslight]

A 1-mana extort card could see fringe play if you've got ways of abusing it by casting lots of spells for low or no cost (such as when you have 2 Tops out). It would see play in some Gravecrawler deck.

Four words. Gitaxian Probe. Surgical Extraction.

Hell, you could play a ton of Phyrexian-mana cards with a one-drop Extort guy. It gives both White and Black a fair bit of reach and burn. Hell, even Affinity would be somewhat interested on a one-drop Extort guy in either color, and if it were both...then Junk would probably see a considerable power-boost.

[Barook]

Four words. Gitaxian Probe. Surgical Extraction.

Hell, you could play a ton of Phyrexian-mana cards with a one-drop Extort guy. It gives both White and Black a fair bit of reach and burn. Hell, even Affinity would be somewhat interested on a one-drop Extort guy in either color, and if it were both...then Junk would probably see a considerable power-boost.
:w:/:b: 1/1 hybrid guy with Extort? I could dig that. It would black give also quite a bit of reach when combined with DRS (who can also provide mana for Extort shenanigans).

[rufus]

Four words. Gitaxian Probe. Surgical Extraction.
....

In Legacy, most of the time, 1 mana is worth more than 2 life difference. (That's what makes the phyrexian mana cards so exciting.) I expect the ability to be marginal, at best.

[Megadeus]

If there is a cheap guy I could see it in Zombies. Sam black did play blood artist for awhile. Obviously artist is better, but on a 1 drop that can be aggresive with extort may be borderline playable. Blood artist was just bad because it being a 0/1 made it essentially an easy to remove enchantment

[TsumiBand]

Yeah I keep going back and forth on Extort. Even if Orzhov wants to be the grindy late-game taxman color combination, they still have to actually have the mana to pay that shitty :wb: kicker. I mean, like, it's kinda cool that you can Duress or Path to Exile something and control 2-3 Extort guys and gain some life off of it, but this reminds me of 'old bad life gain', like... like pre-Exalted Angel lifegain. One of the first lessons I had in Magic as an ubernoob was that lifegain had to be super reliable to work, and even then it was bad because it was virtually never actively winning the game for you - much to the chagrin of every noob ever that rocked Life Burst in random GW aggro. It wasn't until Exalted Angel showed up that people started to look at lifelink effects as a favorable means towards a control-oriented victory. Really what successful life gain strategies existed before decks that could play Exalted Angel, Life.dec notwithstanding (since that was essentially a 3-card combo that didn't always win you the game).

I mean, why tax yourself, I guess. Even if it is turn 42 and you're dropping awesome.... 4/4s for 6, apparently.... why spent that extra :wb: to get a little life. The only way it can be cool is if there are other cards that trigger if you gain life or someone else loses it. Otherwise it just makes you grind for no reason and makes it harder to curve out.

[Hanni]

Yeah I keep going back and forth on Extort. Even if Orzhov wants to be the grindy late-game taxman color combination, they still have to actually have the mana to pay that shitty kicker. I mean, like, it's kinda cool that you can Duress or Path to Exile something and control 2-3 Extort guys and gain some life off of it, but this reminds me of 'old bad life gain', like... like pre-Exalted Angel lifegain. One of the first lessons I had in Magic as an ubernoob was that lifegain had to be super reliable to work, and even then it was bad because it was virtually never actively winning the game for you - much to the chagrin of every noob ever that rocked Life Burst in random GW aggro. It wasn't until Exalted Angel showed up that people started to look at lifelink effects as a favorable means towards a control-oriented victory. Really what successful life gain strategies existed before decks that could play Exalted Angel, Life.dec notwithstanding (since that was essentially a 3-card combo that didn't always win you the game).

I mean, why tax yourself, I guess. Even if it is turn 42 and you're dropping awesome.... 4/4s for 6, apparently.... why spent that extra to get a little life. The only way it can be cool is if there are other cards that trigger if you gain life or someone else loses it. Otherwise it just makes you grind for no reason and makes it harder to curve out.

I think you missed the part where you also cause life loss to the opponent. 1 mana for 1 damage may seem inefficient, but as long as it's not the only thing making the card(s) playable, then I don't see the problem. Being able to pay 1 mana for 1 damage and 1 point of lifegain every time you cast a spell might be unimpressive at the beginning of the game, but it would supplement a midgame strategy beautifully. This is an Orzhov ability, and it seems pretty good with your traditional Deadguy spells, especially in the midrange token versions with Lingering Souls, Bitterblossom, Elspeth/Sorin, etc.

Obviously, if they print crappy Extort guys, the mechanic is a bust. But that goes without saying, no?

[TsumiBand]

I think you missed the part where you also cause life loss to the opponent. 1 mana for 1 damage may seem inefficient, but as long as it's not the only thing making the card(s) playable, then I don't see the problem. Being able to pay 1 mana for 1 damage and 1 point of lifegain every time you cast a spell might be unimpressive at the beginning of the game, but it would supplement a midgame strategy beautifully. This is an Orzhov ability, and it seems pretty good with your traditional Deadguy spells, especially in the midrange token versions with Lingering Souls, Bitterblossom, Elspeth/Sorin, etc.

Obviously, if they print crappy Extort guys, the mechanic is a bust. But that goes without saying, no?

I didn't forget, I just think it's mainly irrelevant. vOv

It will be really cool if it is on some tough-as-nails creatures that are removal resistant, and then you just maintain board position with discard effects and trade life points incidentally to ensure your board position is relevant. Else, eh.

[Nihil Credo]

Unless it can hit the rare kind of expendable-yet-playable creature (either 187 guys or card drawers), Extort's best chances probably come from being put on some useful noncreature permanents. The kind of deck that would want to actually spend mana on extortion is likely to also be the kind of deck that wipes the board with regularity.

[TsumiBand]

Unless it can hit the rare kind of expendable-yet-playable creature (either 187 guys or card drawers), Extort's best chances probably come from being put on some useful noncreature permanents. The kind of deck that would want to actually spend mana on extortion is likely to also be the kind of deck that wipes the board with regularity.

This is true too, and it's something I'd briefly considered bringing up. Exalted is really good at doing this.

[rufus]

Unless it can hit the rare kind of expendable-yet-playable creature (either 187 guys or card drawers), Extort's best chances probably come from being put on some useful noncreature permanents. The kind of deck that would want to actually spend mana on extortion is likely to also be the kind of deck that wipes the board with regularity.

It could help in archetypes that are looking for a little more reach. A 2/1 for W with extort is unlikely to see print, but would have some potential.

[Aggro_zombies]

Cipher is...interesting. It is certainly a very Dimir mechanic: turn your creatures into agents executing your plan. I'm just kind of disappointed it still involves creatures; every mechanic in this set save Extort involves needing creatures in some way. That said, if this is Dimir's mechanic, I'm worried they're going to be the Izzet of this set: largely overshadowed by all the other guilds and only draftable alone under certain conditions (the "All Frostburn Weird Aggro" deck becomes the "Turbo Mill" deck). I'm especially worried about it in a set with both Boros and Gruul acting as two very heavy-hitting combat guilds. Gruul feels like it may be the hard counter to Dimir's shenanigans unless Dimir has a healthy dose of Orzhov or Simic as backup.

[TsumiBand]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/special/gtc_card_preview/wm_l6qt6jxefc_01.png

Not a terrible mechanic. About on par with enchanting something, except you might actually never end up losing card advantage b/c the effect happens at least once (when you cast it). The wording is weird-ish, but the effect will be fun to play with.

I still kind of like Battalion better. :B

[Megadeus]

Oh man. Im already brewing a bad invisible stalker deck...

[Greenpoe]

Whispering Madness is Windfall for an extra mana, pretty cool. It's safe to say that Wizards is interested in reprinting banned cards in fairer versions (Temporal Mastery, Reforge the Soul, Ancestral Visions, etc). Could see play in TES instead of Diminishing Returns since 2UB is easier than 2UU, though. As for the keyword, cipher=free casting of spells, which tends to be pretty powerful.

[Aggro_zombies]

Whispering Madness is Windfall for an extra mana, pretty cool. Could see play in TES instead of Diminishing Returns since 2UB is easier than 2UU, though. As for the keyword, cipher=free casting of spells, which tends to be pretty powerful.
Well, the power is held in check by needing to connect with a creature. Invisible Stalker aside, it's probably much less dangerous than, say, Phyrexian mana.

On a different note, it's nice to see Cipher works well with Dimir Infiltrator.

[Rizso]

Yea.... havent we seen this before... free spells...

[FieryBalrog]

After the ninth failed attempt at making a free spell mechanic last year, they make a free spell Windfall for 4 mana. Not just free spells- repeatable free spells yay! Brilliant work at R&D as usual.

It's also nearly as clunky as Haunt from a comprehension perspective, and has terrible artwork. Hitting on all cylinders.

[Vacrix]

Two words:

Dream Salvage.


New storm combo archetype acquired.



EDIT:
The cards were made for each other.. notice..

Whispering Madness, Dream Salvage.

WMDs

[Amon Amarth]

After the ninth failed attempt at making a free spell mechanic last year, they make a free spell Windfall for 4 mana. Not just free spells- repeatable free spells yay! Brilliant work at R&D as usual.

It's also nearly as clunky as Haunt from a comprehension perspective, and has terrible artwork. Hitting on all cylinders.

It's only free if you have a creature, unless I'm reading that wrong. A 4 mana Windfall that requires another color seems appropriately costed in formats without any ritual effects or broken artifacts.

You are right about the mechanic being clunky and shitty artwork. It's meh.

[Barook]

Is there any way creature decks can utilize the cipher on this card in a meaningful way, e.g. Lingering Souls tokens?

Otherwise, I'm interested to see how balanced Windfall is nowadays with an extra :b: added to its mana cost.

[bruizar]

Cipher is bonkers. Spot removal or draw/discard On l.souls, creeping tar pit or squadron hawks is very strong.

I bet theres gonna be a cipher card that turns your dude into dimir cutpurse / shadowmage infiltrator.

Also, extort is sweet imo

[Barook]

Cipher is bonkers. Spot removal or draw/discard On l.souls, creeping tar pit or squadron hawks is very strong.

I bet theres gonna be a cipher card that turns your dude into dimir cutpurse / shadowmage infiltrator.

Also, extort is sweet imo
Cipher certainly is the most interesting mechanic so far. But what can we expect?

Discard, draw, library manipulation (maybe even a tutor effect, but that would be overcosted as hell), removal (overcosted as well due to limited), bounce, Disentomb, life loss/drain effect, graveyard hate and random effect like this we can't really predict.

The graveyard hate might be playable if it has enough impact instead of removing just one card. E.g.


Dimir Graveyard Hate :b:
Instant
Exile target player's graveyard.
Cipher

would be sexy as hell and I could see it happening with their current anti-GY stance.

[TorpidNinja]

Just to be clear, it's reading as though some of these posts are missing the "then" in Cipher's effect. That means the spell must be cast normally with a creature in play to get the effect.

[Barook]

Just to be clear, it's reading as though some of these posts are missing the "then" in Cipher's effect. That means the spell must be cast normally with a creature in play to get the effect.


Cipher (Then you may exile this spell card encoded on a creature you control. Whenever that creature deals combat damage to a player, its controller may cast a copy of this card without paying its mana cost.)

It doesn't target and has a "may" clause. So i doubt that. Encoded still seems like a strange rule word.

[TorpidNinja]

It doesn't target and has a "may" clause. So i doubt that. Encoded still seems like a strange rule word.

I didn't mean the spell's effect; I meant the Cipher "encoding."

[Vacrix]

Its worth noting that the new Windfall probably isn't going to get played in decks like TES. Consider Burning Wish.. TES would rather go for Reforge the Soul or Diminishing Returns over Whispering Madness because LED only adds 3 mana of one color. Hitting 2UB after Burning Wish is actually pretty tough. In fact, hitting UB and not just drawing 4 cards is pretty tough.

Also.. a deck that has a hyper focus on Whispering Madness gives an opponent MUCH incentive to mulligan into their post-board hate. I think its probably going to be put to better use with Cipher than in any current storm combo builds.

[rufus]

After the ninth failed attempt at making a free spell mechanic last year, they make a free spell Windfall for 4 mana. Not just free spells- repeatable free spells yay! Brilliant work at R&D as usual.

It's also nearly as clunky as Haunt from a comprehension perspective, and has terrible artwork. Hitting on all cylinders.

I'm not sure it's that bad since you have to cast the spell, and then it's limited to one free copy per turn, and it can be stopped by creature removal or by blockers. The mechanic is interesting, though we'll have to see what other cypher cards they print. This one -by itself - doesn't really justify an army of Invisible Stalkers and Silhana Ledgewalkers.

It might be a card in Affinity. I'm not sure there are many other UB decks that want to vomit their hand onto the table and swing right away. Maybe in Stax?

[hi-val]

It's pretty unfortunate that Cipher includes "encoding" in its rules text. I'd like it a lot better if it were cleanly called "Encode" instead.

That aside, I like that they decided to make the UB mechanic into a combat mechanic. I like the idea of juicing up one little guy and sending him in for big effect - kind of like Tawnos's Wand and Pit Scorpion from 1995.

What are the other UB effects we're likely to see? Milling, making Zombie tokens, lifeloss, library manipulation, Demonic Tutoring, bounce, artifact interactions, untapping... Lots of interesting and interactive things that can happen.

[Shawon]

It might be a card in Affinity. I'm not sure there are many other UB decks that want to vomit their hand onto the table and swing right away. Maybe in Stax?

Affinity already has a 2UB card: Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas.

This card isn't playable in Legacy. You want to be able to use the Cipher ability to make it worthwhile to run WMD in the first place, and besides, if you're spending 4 mana or more on something, it better be something that actually affects the board or draws you enough cards to win in the same turn *cough* Ad Nauseum *cough*.

[Aggro_zombies]

It's pretty unfortunate that Cipher includes "encoding" in its rules text. I'd like it a lot better if it were cleanly called "Encode" instead.

That aside, I like that they decided to make the UB mechanic into a combat mechanic. I like the idea of juicing up one little guy and sending him in for big effect - kind of like Tawnos's Wand and Pit Scorpion from 1995.

What are the other UB effects we're likely to see? Milling, making Zombie tokens, lifeloss, library manipulation, Demonic Tutoring, bounce, artifact interactions, untapping... Lots of interesting and interactive things that can happen.
Artifact interactions and zombie tokens aren't really something Dimir did, so maybe not.

My guess would be: discard, library manipulation, mill, tutoring, graveyard hate, removal (bounce, -x/-x effects, something like that), possibly something with cloning.

EDIT: now that I think about it, this list is pretty short. Maybe there is some token generation.

[Fizzeler]

Could Whispering Madness be played in Griselbrand Storm?

[.dk]

Could Whispering Madness be played in Griselbrand Storm?

I suppose it is possible, although seems unlikely. Seems like you want to be able to cast it pre-combat to be able to encode on Griselbrand, and making 2UB pre-combat after you've already worked to get Griselbrand in play seems really hard. But, you're already drawing a billion at that point, so is it really worth it, or is it win more? And it doesn't seem like a great idea to give your opponent 14+ cards along with yourself either... Pretty sure they're going to have the FoW at that point, which means you'll have already needed to resolve Silence.

That said, maybe there is some wacky mill strategy with this encoded on Griselbrand to draw a bunch of cards, and have shuffle triggers for when you discard off of Whispering Madness (Emrakul?)

[TsumiBand]

It's pretty unfortunate that Cipher includes "encoding" in its rules text. I'd like it a lot better if it were cleanly called "Encode" instead.

Agree, the wording of the ability is just goofy.

I do have to say I like it though, it's essentially a much better creature enchantment than creature enchantments. I'm reminded of old old old Fish decks that played Curiosity in spite of the potential for card disadvantage. Having an ability that lets you do Neat Things on dealing combat damage is very UB as well. The more I think about this, it's actually very cool. Even if it is thematically similar to many other mechanics in the block. It's something of a corollary to Battalion - Battalion rewards you for attacking with the horde, Cipher rewards you for actually getting there.

I feel like maybe trying this spell in my terrible Sedris EDH deck. Terrible Play Of The Week - attacking with Hypersonic Dragon in play and casting Whispering Madness at instant speed, then encoding a creature that connects. SO MANY CARDS IN MY GRAVEYARD UGGGHHNNN.

[Kuma]

Those of you creaming yourselves over a four-mana Windfall for storm combo, have you forgotten Slithermuse and how little play that saw?

[TsumiBand]

Those of you creaming yourselves over a four-mana Windfall for storm combo, have you forgotten Slithermuse and how little play that saw?

I don't think the comparison of effects is fair. Consecutive Windfalls will net you a new hand every time. Consecutive Slithermuses won't do anything if you're not passing or playing spells. You can pitch a terrible draw to a second Windfall, you can't really do that with Slithermuse.

[hi-val]

Agree, the wording of the ability is just goofy.

I do have to say I like it though, it's essentially a much better creature enchantment than creature enchantments. I'm reminded of old old old Fish decks that played Curiosity in spite of the potential for card disadvantage. Having an ability that lets you do Neat Things on dealing combat damage is very UB as well. The more I think about this, it's actually very cool. Even if it is thematically similar to many other mechanics in the block. It's something of a corollary to Battalion - Battalion rewards you for attacking with the horde, Cipher rewards you for actually getting there.

Good point; I could even foresee something that was nearly a straight-up Curiosity - U, draw a card, Cipher. Probably would not be any better than Curiosity as it is, which isn't great these days.

U/B as a color combo is pretty shallow in what it can do. Maybe a Memory Plunder ability? "Reanimate guy from any graveyard" might be really good, too. U/B doesn't have many "fair" effects - it's got a lot of awful weak stuff and a lot of too-strong stuff.

[bruizar]

Good point; I could even foresee something that was nearly a straight-up Curiosity - U, draw a card, Cipher. Probably would not be any better than Curiosity as it is, which isn't great these days.

U/B as a color combo is pretty shallow in what it can do. Maybe a Memory Plunder ability? "Reanimate guy from any graveyard" might be really good, too. U/B doesn't have many "fair" effects - it's got a lot of awful weak stuff and a lot of too-strong stuff.

That curiosity would actually be really good. A cantrip that draws cards over turns unless you force your opponent to waste spot removal on a lingering souls or moorland haunt token. Turns your chaff into dark confidants for only U. Would love to cast it on baleful strix too.

Don't forget you can Encode a manland ((bl)inkmoth nexus/tar pit. Also, I think the Encodes stack if you target the same creature several times.

Not really rocket science, but I'm pretty sure there will be some milling cards too.
Glimpse the Unthinkable
Thought Scour
Nephalia Drownyard
Duskmantle, House of Shadow
Memory Sluice
Mind Funeral
Nemesis of Reason

[TsumiBand]

Good point; I could even foresee something that was nearly a straight-up Curiosity - U, draw a card, Cipher. Probably would not be any better than Curiosity as it is, which isn't great these days.

U/B as a color combo is pretty shallow in what it can do. Maybe a Memory Plunder ability? "Reanimate guy from any graveyard" might be really good, too. U/B doesn't have many "fair" effects - it's got a lot of awful weak stuff and a lot of too-strong stuff.

Yeah unfortunately you're right. It's kind of too bad because this color combo should be really back-stabby and subterfuge-y, and it generally just doesn't really do a very good job at being those things. The fact that whenever I try to think of a good :u::b: card I have to go way back in my brain to like... Invasion/Odyssey Block just to start to feel comfortable is probably pretty telling. I guess that's what happens when you make counters and discard bad. vOv

Although that's the great thing about Cipher, is that it's just recasting a spell on combat damage. So, if there were a Curiosity ala Cipher, it would just be "Draw a card", and then it could encode on something, so you'd at least get the one use out of it. In that regard it is so much better than a straight-up Aura.

[rufus]

Something like Obsessive Search with cipher instead of madness would be monstrous at :u: considering the synergies with cards like Insectile Abberation and Snapcaster Mage.

[Fizzeler]

Cipher exiles the card upon encoding correct?

How does that synergize with Snapcaster, besides Snappy being a body to Encode onto

[rufus]

Cipher exiles the card upon encoding correct?
Yes. From the card text:
"...Then you may exile this spell card encoded on a creature you control..."
Unless they tinker with the rules, you can flashback, and then encode:
"If the flashback cost was paid, exile this card instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave the stack."


How does that synergize with Snapcaster, besides Snappy being a body to Encode onto
Mostly, I think it would just be very good. EoT Snapcaster + Draw card -> Swing + Draw card.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Cipher is the first truly interesting guild mechanic that has been released. It may be a bit awkward, but it certainly seems to be a lot more inventive than all the other mechanics, which range from mediocre to downright phoned-in*. And it seems like it isn't a "provincial" mechanic; that it has some legs and could be printed in later sets on new cards.

Seems like a lot of cool things can be done with it. Unfortunately, I expect that Wizards development will not find an appropriate power level for the majority of the cards, or design will be uninspired, dooming the mechanic to the same dull fate as Replicate, Haunt, and Radiance.

* Guild mechanics were looking pretty awful in Gatecrash until Cipher. Battalion is rather uninteresting, Evolve is Yet Another +1/+1 Counter Mechanic™ (and a rather boring one at that; play bigger dudes, your smaller dudes get bigger and stuff happens....exciting and fresh!), Bloodrush looks like a subspace of Channel (which was a mechanic I did like, but a less expansive version is none too exciting), and Extort is far too reliant in being on "good" cards.

While Return to Ravnica's guild mechanics were kind of underwhelming, they look a whole lot better in retrospect after seeing the Gatecrash ones.

[Nihil Credo]

Whatever the implications of Cipher for eternal formats, I must commend R&D for waiting two years to print it so that Invisible Stalker had time to rotate out of Standard.


...


...wait. Shit.

[bruizar]

Cipher reminds me of riding the dilu horse

[Barook]

Something like Obsessive Search with cipher instead of madness would be monstrous at :u: considering the synergies with cards like Insectile Abberation and Snapcaster Mage.
I don't think it's too strong, but who knows. It's way better Curiosity (except for fringe cases like Lavamancer), but that's it. Maybe it's going to cost :1::u: or is a looting instead of a cantrip effect.

Actually, under that light, :b: - discard a card might be too strong as well, at least for Standard.

T1 - Dork
T2 - Cipher Discard, (removal spell), swing

That's pretty much the equivalent of a Hymn. Assuming you're a total lucksack and you could connect with a double encoded creature on T2, that's four cards for two of your own, with the potential to get another two cards per turn.

[Vacrix]

T1 - Dork
T2 - Cipher Discard, (removal spell), swing

That's pretty much the equivalent of a Hymn. Assuming you're a total lucksack and you could connect with a double encoded creature on T2, that's four cards for two of your own, with the potential to get another two cards per turn.http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/402395_297602243628367_1833678394_n.jpg






....Yeah.. somehow I doubt they would print something like that unless it cost BB for discard a card.

[FieryBalrog]

Cipher is the first truly interesting guild mechanic that has been released. It may be a bit awkward, but it certainly seems to be a lot more inventive than all the other mechanics, which range from mediocre to downright phoned-in*. And it seems like it isn't a "provincial" mechanic; that it has some legs and could be printed in later sets on new cards.

Seems like a lot of cool things can be done with it. Unfortunately, I expect that Wizards development will not find an appropriate power level for the majority of the cards, or design will be uninspired, dooming the mechanic to the same dull fate as Replicate, Haunt, and Radiance.

* Guild mechanics were looking pretty awful in Gatecrash until Cipher. Battalion is rather uninteresting, Evolve is Yet Another +1/+1 Counter Mechanic™ (and a rather boring one at that; play bigger dudes, your smaller dudes get bigger and stuff happens....exciting and fresh!), Bloodrush looks like a subspace of Channel (which was a mechanic I did like, but a less expansive version is none too exciting), and Extort is far too reliant in being on "good" cards.

While Return to Ravnica's guild mechanics were kind of underwhelming, they look a whole lot better in retrospect after seeing the Gatecrash ones.

Let's face it: the reason the other mechanics are phoned in is because they don't care about those color combinations. R&D largely treats color combos like RW and RG as joke colors. Battalion is a completely unsexy, narrow mechanic that exists because it's as completely one-dimensional as their conception of RW. Ditto Bloodrush. Who cares if they're good or not? The only color combos that matter are Ux, BG, GW.

Meanwhile cipher is an open ended flexible mechanic that is like auras on steroids. Don't have a creature? No problem! Have a creature? You still get the effect right away, and the aura! All upside, all the time. It's impossible to get 2 for 1'd, and depending on the effects, it'll instead be very easy to go 1 for 2 the turn you cast it, and 1 for X over the course of the game.

Transmute was a great mechanic last time too - with very high inherent power- whereas Radiance was trash and Bloodlust was again, incredibly narrow and not very strong.

[Anusien]

This just in: not all mechanics are designed for all players or levels of play.