How many turns do you think ahead for?

[jrw1985]

How many turns ahead do you think for during a game? Do you play to maximize the turn you're in, or do you play to set up your following turn(s)? And, of course, what kind of deck are you playing as such?

I play Goblins, so I'm generally trying to create favorable combat states for the turn I'm in. But I'm also trying to build up my horde and have a plan of action the following turn, whether that be Wasting or spot removal or playing a utility card. I'm generally always trying to set-up my next turn in my current turn.

I usually don't find myself thinking 2 turns ahead unless I'm in a rough spot against control or have an open board against combo and only have a few turns to win. In both those scenarios my options or limited for what I can do to win the game, so I try to set-up that long-game line of play.

Generally speaking though, I'm usually just thinking one turn ahead as I'm generally too reactionary (trying to "win" each turn) to predict what the board state will be even 2 turns from now.

[TsumiBand]

How many turns ahead do you think for during a game? Do you play to maximize the turn you're in, or do you play to set up your following turn(s)? And, of course, what kind of deck are you playing as such?

I play Goblins, so I'm generally trying to create favorable combat states for the turn I'm in. But I'm also trying to build up my horde and have a plan of action the following turn, whether that be Wasting or spot removal or playing a utility card. I'm generally always trying to set-up my next turn in my current turn.

I usually don't find myself thinking 2 turns ahead unless I'm in a rough spot against control or have an open board against combo and only have a few turns to win. In both those scenarios my options or limited for what I can do to win the game, so I try to set-up that long-game line of play.

Generally speaking though, I'm usually just thinking one turn ahead as I'm generally too reactionary (trying to "win" each turn) to predict what the board state will be even 2 turns from now.

I've always had trouble with planning ahead. I guess I've managed to reroute the whole process through "playing around" something I expect to see; like in the Goblins MU, if I expect to see a shitty card like I dunno, Tividar's Crusade, or just whatever I anticipate would blow me out, I try never to play into that unless I'm really, really sure I'm going to race. A deck like Tide combo though, you pretty much have to start mentally counting cards and preparing the top of your deck and your hand for what you're going to be doing in 1 - 3 turns (assuming turn 1 here).

I think people that talk like they are planning some arbitrary number of game states in advance are kind of shitting themselves, or the people around them, because there's always going to be enough random that this sort of thing is silly. Like, who can speculate the outcome of sideboarding g2-3, and then magically triple-nut drawing your tech. You cannot plan for that or against that; like in the Tividar bad example from earlier, you maybe anticipate playing around that card 1.5 times. One Tiv is almost certain, two Tiv's one could pretty logically plan to see, but three or four is both unlikely and totally savage. Except when it isn't unlikely, then it's just savage. So like, to that extent, I think planning ahead is kind of bullshit. The only game state that matters is the one right now. Just don't kick yourself in the mangina and walk into something stupid, unless you couldn't have predicted it was there, like I dunno a Wing Shards or some dumb tech that you shouldn't ever actually see, but totally do see sometimes.

[Megadeus]

Playing Stoneblade I usually at least plan a turn ahead, and if I feel comfortable that my hand will not change anytime soon (like from BS, Jace, or maybe a discard spell from my opponent) I may do 2 turns in advance. But that is a long time in terms of Legacy. A lot of things can change. One thing I do think of is how longmy spell pierces will remain relevant, and if it is worth hold it or not.

[Shimi]

I'm usually playing 2 turns ahead, but sometimes when you play combo or control I played 4 turns ahead, which is very risk since the game can usually chance alot, but those times were the biggest blowouts.

[Jenni]

I always try to have a "If nothing goes wrong, and I don't draw anything good, this is what I'll be doing" line of play in my head, it helps me make mull decisions, but I don't have a strict plan or map of the game in my head.
I try to predict what my opponent has each turn, and try to predict what they will do, but there are so many unknowns (like what they will draw, what I will draw, weather or not they see the same plays I do, weather they even know how to play their deck, weather I know what deck they're even playing etc. etc.) that it's usually hard to keep a clear idea of what's happening in the next couple turns.

I do try to have a rough timeline of what my deck should be doing. For landstill, as an example: T1 force, T2 Standstill, T3 Factory, T4 Animate+attack[repeat, Rishadan Port and wasteland-ing as available], Is the general plan, but at some point my opponent will break the standstill, and I'll need to change the plan based on what they did and what I can do to prevent it, and I just need to be prepared for that to happen.

[jrw1985]

I'm usually playing 2 turns ahead, but sometimes when you play combo or control I played 4 turns ahead, which is very risk since the game can usually chance alot, but those times were the biggest blowouts.

Could you elaborate on your 4-turns-ahead gameplay? What kind of deck are you playing? Are you thinking 4-turns-ahead on any given turn, or do you choose a 4-turn line of play that start T1?

I must know just because there seems to be too many variables to really think you can know what the game will look like in 4 turns (unless you're really just playing a MU where you don't care what your opponent is doing). But even with 2 options a turn, 4 turns provides a crazy mess of a decision tree. Or are you playing where you decide 4 turns from now I'm dropping a bomb, and that's what you play toward?

[Oiolosse]

I think about and act on what must be answered or considered NOW. That takes precedent over "turns ahead" since not acting accordingly will result in a loss or shift in position. If there is no immediate threat then I think as many turns ahead as quickly as I can.

I think an important tip is to never, ever...ever, allow your mind to idle. You should be thinking on your opponents turn as diligently as you do on your own. Maybe the exception is when the state of the game demands just one decision, even then you should still be reading your opponents face.

[Megadeus]

Could you elaborate on your 4-turns-ahead gameplay? What kind of deck are you playing? Are you thinking 4-turns-ahead on any given turn, or do you choose a 4-turn line of play that start T1?

I must know just because there seems to be too many variables to really think you can know what the game will look like in 4 turns (unless you're really just playing a MU where you don't care what your opponent is doing). But even with 2 options a turn, 4 turns provides a crazy mess of a decision tree. Or are you playing where you decide 4 turns from now I'm dropping a bomb, and that's what you play toward?

Games 2 and 3 with Nic Fit that was what I would do some times. Plan out how to use my mana on the early turns and what My green suns needed to be doing in turns 3-4.

For Example: Against Burn, I would know that I need a hand with a green sun or something, So I would T1 Therapy, T2 Explorer Sacrifice, then on T5 assuming I am hitting my mana, GSZ for Huntmaster or Kitchen Finks, depending on my current build. Sometimes even Scavenging ooze.

[menace13]

/me quick head slap

Don't think... Feel...

[KobeBryan]

when you don't know what your opponent is holding, its hard to play moves, unless your deck is not very interactive like dredge.

[Oiolosse]

when you don't know what your opponent is holding, its hard to play moves, unless your deck is not very interactive like dredge.

If it's the first game and you literally have no idea what they are playing then yes. But the moment they play a land the probability space reduces. Not by much of course but with each successive play the 'light cone' becomes narrower so to speak.

[JamieW89]

As for the strategic part: I basicly map out the rough course of the game, and consider what things are actually going to be key in deciding the game (and matchup in general). I have a rough idea of what I plan to be doing for most of the match, but that obviously doesn't mean I literally tinker all possible outcomes of the game in the following 5 turns with the many variables involved, there are none who do (I would assume :p).

Tactically, I usually only plan the current and next turn. What can they have/draw, looking at the lines they've taken? Which of those can I afford to play around. Do my chances improve if I wait going off compared to gambling it now? etc.

[emidln]

Playing combo, I've typically already processed anything in my hand, on the board currently, and what my opponent could reasonably have. The part that I have to consider is, based on the aforementioned data, what card or cards win me the game (in what order). You can really plan any more than that if you play a cantrip-heavy combo deck. It's just about knowing where you are and where you want to go.

[Sloshthedark]

it's impossible to think many turns ahead in this game reasonably, as a Storm player I think 1-2 turns ahead, I think Lands is deck where you think most far ahead because you set-up for a long game, have control of the game, everything takes too long and not every action advances your gameplan effectively

[SaberTooth]

maybe i'm a bad player, but playing storm i just can thing about the current turn and maybe the next one :P

[catmint]

I think you have to differ between thinking through every possible path like a chess player or thinking ahead in the sense of knowing what the matchup is about and what could happen.

The situatios are very rare where you can plan exactly ahead like "we trade this, then that, ... then i do this and I have a favourable situation" for a couple of turns. It happens when you played a discard spell/gitaxian probe first or if you close to winning/dying and the variables are limited, but there is always the draw bringing in randomness.

If you know the matchup & what it is about you automatically make your decisions to get out the optimal result given your options and the opponents information without "going through every possible path like a chess player"

Of course you have to think ahead in the sense of "not playing creatures when you plan to wipe the board" or planning the discard and not dying before you tendrils, but this is again more a gameplan thing and not detailed scenarios.

[Justin]

I normally think about ten turns ahead. Unfortunately for me, the fundamental turn in legacy is turn three, so I pretty much lose all my games.

[jarvisyu]

Depends on the format.

In certain matchups (see Bant Control mirror in standard), you just need to figure out what's going to happen on turn 20+ or so.

In legacy, the decisions are all encapsulated into a few turns for the most part.

In my personal experience, it's more about visualizing how the game is going to end.

[Humphrey]

around 20 turns

[Infinitium]

Eh. Seeing as the opponents hand and draws are for the most part hidden information planning out more than your general strategy in the matchup is an excercise in futility imo. Usually I try to make an estimate of what is in my opponents hand, his possible draws and then try to play around that and the current boardstate one turn at a time.

[Vacrix]

You can plan ahead but usually thats more of planning around possible disruption/permission than actually achieving a desired position/board state/etc. Such as playing around a hypothetical Daze/Spell Pierce, playing an SFM before your opponent has a chance to Thoughtseize, playing out creatures you want to eat spot removal before you can safely drop the creature you want, dropping your Karakas early when you know the opponent plays Wasteland that way you can safely play the 2nd one and the dual you have in hand...

So really it depends on if you're referring to a 'plan' as a strategy or as a tactic. I think, in general, your game plan is your deck strategy and you generally plan your deck around achieving a soft/hard lock like in Lands/Enchantress, a clock like in aggro, a combo turn where you win, or a synergy that will give you a superior board state. I'd say tactics are short range plans. You usually have to decipher the opponent based on the matchup and potential deck list variations and then plan around what you know about the opponent's archetype. But usually you don't just plan one tactic at a time. You have to, for example, play around Daze but make sure you have mana to cantrip because there is a creature on board and you want a removal spell. Then sometimes your tactics clash and you have two different routes to go based on the mana. Then, all of a sudden the plans you were just making change completely because you cantrip into something really good or something really bad. Like Ponder into 3 lands? There goes that plan, shuffle library, draw a card. Oh wow an extra spot removal when I wanted a creature.

Even within the turn there's a constant process of planning and replanning. This isn't chess. In chess, you can plan ahead because only one piece moves during a turn. In magic, each turn has so many moving parts that you can have a general game plan and general plans for how to interact with your opponent.. but sometimes the opponents strategy trumps your strategy and all of a sudden you can't really play your strategy anymore. Take Dredge as an example. Most decks don't just have maindeck resources sitting around that are really good against Dredge. Usually you have to board in hate, and then all of a sudden your plan is to hate the graveyard centric strategy while Dredge's game plan is now to outmaneuver your hate plan. So then you have to execute your own strategy in time before Dredge can start shitting Zombies on your face.

Also.. there are decks like Belcher and Burn. Where thinking turns ahead is.. "hmm should I swing with ALL of my goblin tokens now? Or swing with HALF just to prolong my opponents imminent demise to reiterate the fact that I don't really want to play magic?" or... "FUCK! Should I play this Lightning Bolt right now? or this Chain Lightning? or this Lava Spike? God damn it WHY IS MY LIFE SO HARD!? I should have brought Belcher..."