What is Miracle's poor matchup?

[KobeBryan]

The deck that usually beats this deck are merfolk and goblins, but since Miracles is now running peacekeeper, it makes merfolk a good matchup.

Some decks now maindeck RIP and Helm so that nullifies goblins. So what matchup is there that beats this deck?

I always thought its rock paper scissors type in magic, with aggro beating control, control beating combo, and combo beating aggro. BUt now with Miracles, it can beat both aggro AND combo.

[Aggro_zombies]

Somewhat tangential to your main question, but the rock-paper-scissors model is dated and untrue - and wasn't really ever true. You'd have a pretty poor control deck on your hands, for example, that can't be tuned to beat aggro.

EDIT: Mono-blue Merfolk can beat Peacekeeper with Gut Shot, Dismember, or a Vapor Snag followed by an alpha strike. Black-splash Merfolk can beat Peacekeeper with Deathmark or Virtue's Ruin. White-splash Merfolk has Swords and/or Path.

[lolosoon]

the rock-paper-scissors model is dated and untrue - and wasn't really ever true.

QFT. Legacy is more like this (http://thefuntimesguide.com/images/blogs/rockpaperscissors.jpg) :
http://thefuntimesguide.com/images/blogs/rockpaperscissors.jpg

And, back to the main topic : I do think BUG, in its controlish version has a good Miracle Matchup. That question was also recently answered by a few people here (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/1386_quick_question_which_decks_are.html) if you want additional advice on this matter.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Isn't RIP + Helm/Energy field it's own thing?

[HammafistRoob]

Turbo Eldrazi absolutely smashes any build of miracles. It's seriously like un-loseable.

[Wilkin]

Some Miracle builds also play the Leyline, RIP and Energy Field Combo.

If it does, it's got a good chance against Goblins. If not.....not so much. Counterbalance, FOW and Counterspell only really work on Aether Vial.


lol, yeah Turbo Eldrazi should have an easy go at Miracles. Slow clock and no wastelands. And Terminus isn't that bad if you have Eye of Ugin out.

I think A BUG type deck with Snapcasters, Goyf and Abrupt Decay etc. would do well. Especially with Decay since it can deal with Counterbalance and with Detention Sphere.

[Fry]

MUD does well against it as well. Counter balance hardly counters things, and Chalice of the Void hurts them quite a bit. The trick comes with knowing when to use Forgemaster, what to sac with it, and what to get with it. A lot of people don't get the timing and/or target and/or sacrificing right which is why there are many who don't play Forgemaster builds. Mud is good against Combo, especially Miracles and High Tide.

[Anusien]

As with any "What are the bad matchups for X deck thread", this has now degenerated to, "My pet deck beats X, but only if you're as good as I am, so if you can't beat X, you must suck."

[Piceli89]

MUD does well against it as well. Counter balance hardly counters things, and Chalice of the Void hurts them quite a bit. The trick comes with knowing when to use Forgemaster, what to sac with it, and what to get with it. A lot of people don't get the timing and/or target and/or sacrificing right which is why there are many who don't play Forgemaster builds. Mud is good against Combo, especially Miracles and High Tide.

It doesn't take a lot for the Miracle player to topdeck a Terminus (even without library manipulation because of Cotv set on 1) to clear a whole board. If Top has already hit the ground, this is even easier.
MUD's strongest aspect, which is mana denial with resistors, can be circumvented quite comfortably both by running at least 7 basics with double Plains-which Miracle usually already does-, as well as packing EE plus Disenchant between pre and post-board. There are also no real solutions to Entreat the Angels, except for fringe stuff like Powder Keg/Ratchet Bomb.
It just requires a bit of comprehension on when to set up the sweep; greater consistency and better topdeck will do the rest in a long game perspective.

[GGoober]

Miracle is a control deck, and like all control decks, loses to decks that can:
1) Grind out the long games
2) Win within a narrow timeframe by limiting the control player's ability to interact.

If a deck fits the particular strategy of winning the long game or putting a lot of pressure in a narrow timeframe, then it will beat the control deck. It's the reason why decks like Goblin, Dredge (without dedicated hate) and Turbodrazi will always have favorable matchups against control due to inevitability. Miracle or control in general will need specific answers for these matchups.

For 2, a lot of decks fit into that archetype and in general involves trying to reduce the interaction of the control player's ability to control the game. Examples include Chalice, Trinisphere, Cabal Therapy, Xantid Swarm, City of Solitude, Cavern, Vial, Hatebears, Split-second etc EOT turnabout control player's islands D: etc

This is not to say that a control deck can't beat its bad matchups, but to beat Miracle or control in general, I think the above two matches up with decks that we consistently see beating control decks.

[CorpT]

As with any "What are the bad matchups for X deck thread", this has now degenerated to, "My pet deck beats X, but only if you're as good as I am, so if you can't beat X, you must suck."

To be fair, it did take almost 4 replies to get there. Which is probably a new record in slowness.

[wcm8]

BUG decks don't have too much trouble with Miracle since they play Discard, Abrupt Decay (for Counterbalance), Counterspells, often play Jace of their own, Vendilion Clique, and have access to Krosan Grip for SDT.

UWx is a great archetype, but it's not unbeatable. Regarding the two decks you mentioned having trouble: A fast Goblin draw should be able to overwhelm them, and splashing Green for Grip, Black for Discard, or White for Thalia/Disenchant are also reasonable approaches. Counterbalance is useless against Cavern of Souls and a resolved Aether Vial.

Merfolk though... Well Merfolk I think is an outdated deck. It seems to me to be a deck built to beat a metagame that no longer exists. I suppose if Merfolk plays Standstill it will have an advantage in this matchup, and Mutavault is pretty good since it can be left un-activated if the there's a threat of Terminus. Merfolk could also consider splashing another color to help cover its weaknesses.

[Fry]

It doesn't take a lot for the Miracle player to topdeck a Terminus (even without library manipulation because of Cotv set on 1) to clear a whole board. If Top has already hit the ground, this is even easier.
MUD's strongest aspect, which is mana denial with resistors, can be circumvented quite comfortably both by running at least 7 basics with double Plains-which Miracle usually already does-, as well as packing EE plus Disenchant between pre and post-board. There are also no real solutions to Entreat the Angels, except for fringe stuff like Powder Keg/Ratchet Bomb.
It just requires a bit of comprehension on when to set up the sweep; greater consistency and better topdeck will do the rest in a long game perspective.

Some lists run Sundering Titan, which doesn't care about basics. Staff of Nin is really good, lightning greaves doesn't care top decking a dude is fine. Chalice on one stops setting up miracles, except for SDT, which has other ways of dealing with it such as Spine of Ish Sah. There are other decks that do well against Miracles, I just mentioned one of the decks that I happen to have an play from time to time because I know the match up a bit better than say, deck X.

[Tammit67]

Merfolk though... Well Merfolk I think is an outdated deck. It seems to me to be a deck built to beat a metagame that no longer exists. I suppose if Merfolk plays Standstill it will have an advantage in this matchup, and Mutavault is pretty good since it can be left un-activated if the there's a threat of Terminus. Merfolk could also consider splashing another color to help cover its weaknesses.

If baltimore is any indication, a meta for merfolk to thrive might be on the rise

[Fossil4182]

The deck that usually beats this deck are merfolk and goblins, but since Miracles is now running peacekeeper, it makes merfolk a good matchup.

Some decks now maindeck RIP and Helm so that nullifies goblins. So what matchup is there that beats this deck?

I always thought its rock paper scissors type in magic, with aggro beating control, control beating combo, and combo beating aggro. BUt now with Miracles, it can beat both aggro AND combo.

Including fringe or splash versions of the deck in the calculus of what "beats" Miracles is counter productive. If you assume that Miracle builds are running Rest in Peace plus Helm of Obedience beat Goblins (and Peacekeeper to beat Merfolk), then in you have already answered your question to an extent. The decks that beat Miracles are Goblins and Merfolk. The discussion then becomes how do Goblins and Merfolk respond to the changes Miracles has made in each of those match-ups. Aggro_zombies has already answered this question in the first response to this thread.

Discussing Miracles in a broader sense (ones that aren't tuned to beat specific match-ups) I would say one or some combination of these are representative of typical UW Miracles build:

SCG Baltimore Top 8: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51271
SCG Seattle Top 8: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50928
SCG Seattle Top 16: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50920
SCG Dallas Top 8: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50674
SCG Dallas Top 8: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50683
SCG Dallas Top 16: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50713

Those are the only six UW Miracle decks to top 16 in the past three SCG Opens. As an aside, only one of the six had added Rest in Peace & Helm of Obedience which to me would suggest its an anomaly rather than a growing trend.

I would also start by reading this: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/24983-Eternal-Europe-Surviving-In-The-Age-Of-Miracles.html

While the article doesn't suggest it, one could just play lands and crush UW Miracles...

[Hanni]

It doesn't take a lot for the Miracle player to topdeck a Terminus (even without library manipulation because of Cotv set on 1) to clear a whole board. If Top has already hit the ground, this is even easier.
MUD's strongest aspect, which is mana denial with resistors, can be circumvented quite comfortably both by running at least 7 basics with double Plains-which Miracle usually already does-, as well as packing EE plus Disenchant between pre and post-board. There are also no real solutions to Entreat the Angels, except for fringe stuff like Powder Keg/Ratchet Bomb.
It just requires a bit of comprehension on when to set up the sweep; greater consistency and better topdeck will do the rest in a long game perspective.

It completely depends on the MUD build. Not all MUD builds are the same. The MUD lists that go all in on creatures with no ETB effects and no means of card advantage (and its even worse when those lists have tons of card disadvantage), then yea, a topdecked Terminus can be brutal. The thing about U/W Miracles though, is that it's slow as balls. Similar to how Turbodrazi works, MUD has all the time in the world to drop insane bombs like Sundering Titan. MUD largely ignores Counterbalance, whereas Chalice is pretty good in this matchup (and Trinisphere too, to a lesser extent). Cavern of Souls makes things even easier for MUD.

tl;dr there are different variations of MUD, and only some of them have a tough time with Miracles.

[ESG]

Hanni's avatar is also good against Miracles. Caleb Durward's UB Tezzeret deck casts its Jace a turn or two earlier, or it drops Tezz or Karn and brings the pain.

[ajr]

Bant is actually a pretty tricky matchup for Miracles - it has access to the Teeg/Safekeeper combo, which is difficult to untangle, and it can land Jace faster than you can, all backed by countermagic.

[dontbiteitholmes]

As with any "What are the bad matchups for X deck thread", this has now degenerated to, "My pet deck beats X, but only if you're as good as I am, so if you can't beat X, you must suck."

I thought that was called Vintage.

[FieryBalrog]

Goblins is a pretty tough matchup. The Field/RIP/Helm combo versions do a lot better obviously, but Goblins can still win a bunch of the time with a quick draw.

[HammafistRoob]

As with any "What are the bad matchups for X deck thread", this has now degenerated to, "My pet deck beats X, but only if you're as good as I am, so if you can't beat X, you must suck."

How do you figure? I'm pretty sure some good points have been presented on how to beat miracles. Which was the whole point of the thread. You sir just lost three goodstuff points.

[Ellomdian]

I'm confused, I was pretty sure any deck with access (even Tangentially) to Abrupt Decay had game against miracles?

[Hanni]

Abrupt Decay alone doesn't make Miracles a good matchup. If the rest of the shell of the deck loses to Miracles, AD isn't going to save you.

[yutang]

BUG Control
Dredge
Show and Tell decks

[menace13]

The best card against the deck is Teeg. Shutting down all of their win conditions, and all the Mass Wipes.

[Zombie]

I'd go for Needle on Divining Top before Teeg.