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HammafistRoob
12-05-2012, 12:52 AM
I'd like to start this thread out by saying that this deck isn't teir 1, it's closer to teir 2. I'm posting it here to get some discussion going about a newish archetype and to see if anybody has tried/ is willing to try this approach(as I do not own any magical crackboard at the moment). And yes I realize that this looks close to UR delver burn but in actuality it plays out a lot differently.

Delver Fiend is a primarily blue deck that splashes red for Kiln Fiend along with some burn spells. This archetype clearly wants to close games out early(turn3 or 4). This serves a multitude of purposes, mainly to outrace opposing bombs namely Pernicious Deed or Jace, the Mind Sculptor. But it also has an added bonus of making Daze and Spell Pierce practically unfair because your opponent will be unable to play around them in the face of your pressure. Now onto the list to give you a better idea of what I'm rambling about.

Delver Fiend
Maindeck=60
-Manabase-16

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain

-Creatures-8
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Kiln Fiend

-Blue Spells-24
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

-Burn Spells-12
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Dart
4 Forked Bolt

*Sideboard*
3 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
3 Price of Progress
2 Chain Lightning
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt

As you can see, the deck has a whopping 36 instants and sorceries to ensure you that everyones favorite human will sprout antennae relatively early on a consistent basis.


The primary function of your burn spells is to clear the way for your ultimate ground attack. Most legacy decks don't run many guys faster than Kiln Fiend that live through a bolt. So it's insanely common to kill them on turn 3 or 4 after burning out a few blockers. But these red instants also serve the purpose of added reach to help speed up your clock when pointed at your opponent. This deck can do some seriously unfair things during the declare blockers step as well, mainly due to burn.

_Explanations_
Manabase- Eight fetchlands(plus ponder) supply you with ample shuffle effects for your Brainstorms. The basics are obviously to help play around Wastelands. 4 Volcanics are mandatory when running 4 Lava Darts and only 1 Mountain(awful in most opening grips)

Delver of Secrets- Does he still need explaining at this point? I Think not, but here goes. He's the best one drop ever for a deck that wants to win the game in the redzone early. He has won me more games than any other card that costs U.

Kiln Fiend- The decks namesake. He makes for an explosive, comboesque finish in everygame he goes unanswered for a single turn. He's also a reliable way to flat out race combo decks since we have the tools to slow them down easily. 32(excluding FoW)cards in the deck pump him for either one or zero mana.

Countersuit- I'm pretty sure 8 is the right number here as you want about two in each game. Daze is extremely potent in a deck that can operate off of 1-2 lands and can also end the game before the opponent has 3 lands in play. Force of Will is the best counter available in the format so its inclusion should be obvious.

Cantrip suite- 16 cantrip effects help to ensure a great deal of consistency, allowing you to filter your draws much better than any major archetype. Brainstorm is arguably the best card in the format, it definitely feels like Ancestral Recall when combined with a shuffle effect. So its inclusion is fairly justified with that reason alone... best two card combo ever. Ponder is a close runner up, and its almost always better than Brainstorm on turn one in this deck. Also, the fact that it essentially digs 4 cards deep when needed makes it awfully powerful when digging for answers. Gitaxian Probe is insane when combined with Kiln Fiend, but even without him the information the card grants can be enough to swing a few games in your favor. Preordain is sort of a flex slot, the deck still performs decently without it. I just prefer to have the maximum number of deck manipulation possible, and ordain is the best option available.

Red Reach- Burn serves a powerful roll in any UR deck, this one is no exception. Lightning Bolt clearly outclasses any other damage spell. Forked bolt is a really good way to burn out a few X/1's and deliver the Kiln blow. Lava Dart is absolutely absurd in this deck. Pumping up your beatstick to a 7/2 for a measly one red mana while taking out any pipsqueaks your opponent may have. I'm not sure if four is the right number here but testing hasn't made me regret it yet.

This deck has a fair matchup against pretty much every archetype. There are no autowin or autolose matches as far as I can tell. The sideboard is sort of throw together with the DTBs in mind. The extra burn comes in against decks packing insane amounts of removal or decks with horrid clocks that you can simply race with burn to the dome. The extra counters come in to prevent Chalice of the Void or Counterbalance hitting the table. Trinisphere isn't as bad, if your opponent doesn't land a quick clock you can simply race with Delver and reach spells.

This deck is a blast to play, but I feel like my testing is a little off simply because of how rogue the overall strategy is. Often times people will do their usual play of trying to kill my Kiln Fiend in response to an attack, which obviously just makes my counterspells into pump spells as well, and they die. I've also even Dazed my own spells just to make my attack lethal although it's a very risky play unless you know what your opponent is, or could be, holding in hand. But these situations do arise and it's very important to take full advantage of these plays against decks that lack the ability to remove your tank.

All comments welcome, just don't be a fucking dickhole please. Thanks in advance.

catmint
12-05-2012, 02:43 AM
Interesting idea - don't think it deserves it's own thread though. To include kieln fiend in U/R Delver might be an idea worth looking at. PLayers from the U/R Delver thread can surely judge better than me.

HammafistRoob
12-14-2012, 01:54 AM
Honestly this deck is miles better than delver burn. Id rather punch my mother than ever play goblin guide. I also feel this deck is marginally better than that nivmagus deck thats been floating around. Too much card disadvantage in those critters for my taste. I've double fist tested this deck against the majority of the field and it definitely feels like something worth working on a bit. It just needs some more innovation and testing to help fill the cracks up a bit.

Nobody has an hour of time to throw this list together online and give it a few runs? Maybe even pop back into my cute little thread here and give some suggestions? Man wtf has happened to this forum? Nobody even attempts to play something new unless a new amazing card comes out... Now I know why legacy has been dominated by the same handful of decks the last two years. I bet if I started this thread off by saying I top4ed a 100 player event then people would be hoping on the bandwagon and trying to eat my babies(idk if magic players are familiar with this slang) for sideboard advice. Fuck netdeckers.

This list is only a first draft and it already has some serious game against Miracles, AnT, SnT, Goblins and Maverick. Admittedly RuG has proven quite problematic but it's not horrible, especially if they play right into PoP for 6 or 8 post sideboard.

kiblast
12-14-2012, 04:23 AM
I used to play a BR Fiend deck a while back, before Delver was printed. I was playing discard (which in your version translates to counterspells) and Dark Confidants. Afterwards, I shifted to blue because I wanted to play Wee Dragonauts . Playing Delver now that it exists just makes more sense.
I'd like to know if you tested/tried / considered Distortion Strike in place of Forked Bolt as Forked will not be able to grant that your attacks pass through most of the times (I'd rather play Fire/Ice instead ) while Distortion Strike on a Fiend is basically +3+0 for u , and then +3+0 for no mana investment, and unblockability for 2 turns. Seems cool.

CabalTherapy
12-14-2012, 04:49 AM
Nobody has an hour of time to throw this list together online and give it a few runs? Maybe even pop back into my cute little thread here and give some suggestions? Man wtf has happened to this forum? Nobody even attempts to play something new unless a new amazing card comes out... Now I know why legacy has been dominated by the same handful of decks the last two years. I bet if I started this thread off by saying I top4ed a 100 player event then people would be hoping on the bandwagon and trying to eat my babies(idk if magic players are familiar with this slang) for sideboard advice. Fuck netdeckers.


Rage

I also think that this deck do not deserve an own topic due to its similarities with DelverBurn. If you would switch the Fiend over to the Guide it would be a UR DelverBurn list. Nevertheless, the fiend is a good idea and has the potential to swing for mighty dmg.

SirTylerGalt
12-14-2012, 05:20 AM
Honestly this deck is miles better than delver burn. Id rather punch my mother than ever play goblin guide. I also feel this deck is marginally better than that nivmagus deck thats been floating around. Too much card disadvantage in those critters for my taste. I've double fist tested this deck against the majority of the field and it definitely feels like something worth working on a bit. It just needs some more innovation and testing to help fill the cracks up a bit.

Nobody has an hour of time to throw this list together online and give it a few runs? Maybe even pop back into my cute little thread here and give some suggestions? Man wtf has happened to this forum? Nobody even attempts to play something new unless a new amazing card comes out... Now I know why legacy has been dominated by the same handful of decks the last two years. I bet if I started this thread off by saying I top4ed a 100 player event then people would be hoping on the bandwagon and trying to eat my babies(idk if magic players are familiar with this slang) for sideboard advice. Fuck netdeckers.

This list is only a first draft and it already has some serious game against Miracles, AnT, SnT, Goblins and Maverick. Admittedly RuG has proven quite problematic but it's not horrible, especially if they play right into PoP for 6 or 8 post sideboard.

I would play play Nivmagus Elemental + Flusterstorm before Kiln Fiend.

There was a discussion of this kind of deck in the U/R Gro thread. I think this is where the discussion could be moved, instead of moving it to the U/R Delver thread:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5412-U-R-g-Gro

Shadow Rift and Distortion Strike were discussed, as a means to push lethal through blockers.


There was also an U/R/g deck with Kiln Fiend + Berserk that had some success in France a year ago:

http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=3936

Kiln Fiend + 2 cantrips + Berserk = 20/3 trample

slave
12-14-2012, 05:27 AM
I like the idea.
I have a Fiend deck I like casually, but I rock a few different card choices.
Besides some of your choices;
I run Magma Jet in there, aswell as Assault Strobe & Mutagenic Growth
Mutagenic is an odd one I know, but I like it - I'd play this instead of Gitaxian Probe.

Distortion Strike is a good call, and I'd wanna run additional options to that, to ensure Fiend will still connect if you don't draw one.
Besides packing a fair amount of burn to clear the path, have you considered bounce like Seal of Removal, Snapback, Vapor Snag etc.??
I like them for clearing a path or for protecting my creatures from removal, flash etc.

Hanni
12-14-2012, 06:43 PM
There was a discussion of this kind of deck in the U/R Gro thread. I think this is where the discussion could be moved, instead of moving it to the U/R Delver thread:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...5412-U-R-g-Gro


In all fairness to Roob, I necro'd one of my threads from early 2007, no one really posted in it, and I also got yelled at by Koby (but no real surprise there).

Some suggestions for you though, Roob:

You run 8 creatures, neither of them have any built in protection and both of them have an ass of 2 (so they die to nearly every single removal spell in the format), and you're running 4 Daze and 4 Force of Will as your only protection. I would recommend a third threat, at the very least.

Here is a post I made about Nivmagus in my Blue Sligh thread:


You know, I thought about Nivmagus alot when it was first spoiled, but I wasn't really sure. If it was a 2/1 it would have been a no brainer. At 1/2, it's going to suck unless an instant or sorcery gets exiled. The problem with exiling instants/sorceries is that we don't really want to exile them. Exiling a Daze against a Lightning Bolt sounds awesome, but I'd much rather resolve my Brainstorms and burn.

The other thing I was thinking about Nivmagus, was that it would play very nicely with more cantrips, since it can turn every cantrip into a permanent +2/+2 when the deck doesn't need to dig for anything. However, more cantrips in this deck would be bad.

On one hand, Nivmagus looks extremely good against blue decks with countermagic (since we can exile our instants/sorceries in response to their countermagic). Most of the format is playing countermagic.

On the other hand, it seems bad against aggro decks. Comparatively with Dryad, it doesn't beat as hard unless we waste a spell, and it doesn't disrupt graveyards.

Against the format:

It could be insane against RUG Tempo, since that deck uses alot of cheap countermagic and burn spells. They would normally be countering alot of our burn spells, but they would no longer be doing that for fear of growing Nivmagus. At 3/4, it outsizes post-Thresh Mongooses, and at 5/6, it outsizes Goyfs. At 3/4, they cannot profitably remove it with burn. Sounds good to me.

(It would also be really good against the mirror, since we could make it a 5/6 on turn 2)

Could be decent against Miracles. Their countermagic is alot slower, so they probably won't be countering too many of our spells early, and they run a boatload of removal to negate the gains also.

On the other hand, Nivmagus does seem nice if he comes down early and is still alive under a Counterbalance, since our dead spells in hand turn into damage on the board. Interesting countermeasure to Counterbalance, at the very least.

It will be insanely good against SNT, since a permanent +2/+2 will do more damage than an one-shot 3 damage spell after only two swings. Could possibly speed up the goldfish, making turn 3 goldfishes more consistent. Seems good to me.

Possibly good against SFM decks too, since they also run countermagic.

Again, it seems bad against aggro decks, though.

Ultimately, I'm still not really sure. Nivmagus looks like the type of creature that would benefit from a deck being built around it, using free spells like Gitaxian Probe and Gut Shot, and some more cantrips in general. At the point where I am playing free spells that kinda suck otherwise, and extra cantrips, I might as well run Kiln Fiend for value. Turn 1 Magus, turn 2 Kiln Fiend, turn 3 -> cast 5 spells would grows Kiln Fiend to 16/17, exiling all 5 spells would grow Nivmagus to 11/12, swing for 27. Overkill though, and we can already goldfish turn 3. Also highly susceptible to exile removal, although that deck would likely be running Force/Daze/Pierce/Flusterstorm/etc. Totally different deck, which I have a thread for here: U/R/x Miracle-Gro

There is also the option of Grim Lavamancer instead, which can be a card advantage machine against decks like Maverick and Goblins that have tons of X/1's and X/2's, which can be very important for clearing the way for Kiln Fiend to swing through, but Lavamancer is not very aggressive as a clock and this deck looks like it wants to be fairly aggressive.

Here is one of the lists I was toying around with...

U/R/b Grixis Gro

Lands (18)
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Mountain

Creatures (11)
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nivmagus Elemental
4 Kiln Fiend

Spells (31)
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Daze
3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Snuff Out
3 Fireblast

There are tons of great sideboard choices available to this color combination.

There are also some interesting cards available to this archetype.

I did a search for some potentially good keyword cards, and also for some free cards. Of those, I thought these had the most potential:
(please note that some of them still suck, but I figured I'd list them anyways)


Ancient Grudge
Artful Dodge
Cabal Therapy
Chatter of the Squirrel
Coffin Purge
Defy Gravity
Demonic Dread
Distortion Strike
Emerge Unscathed
Faithless Looting
Flame Jab
Flash of Defiance
Gigadrowse
Grapeshot
Ground Rift
Haze of Rage
Increasing Vengeance
Lava Dart
Purify the Grave
Raven's Crime
Ray of Revelation
Reckless Charge
Saving Grasp
Shattering Spree
Surging Dementia
Surging Flame
Violent Outburst
Abolish
Blessed Breath
Deadly Allure
Berserk
Fling
Sylvan Might
Think Twice
Volcanic Spray
Cave-In
Contagion
Disrupting Shoal
Flameshot
Foil
Thwart
Invigorate
Land Grant
Mindbreak Trap
Misdirection
Pulverize
Pyrokinesis
Ravenous Trap
Reverent Mantra
Reverent Silence
Ricochet Trap
Rouse
Sickening Shoal
Snapback
Spinning Darkness
Thunderclap
Tidal Bore
Unmask
Gut Shot
Apostle's Blessing
Dismember
Mutagenic Growth
Noxious Revival
Surgical Extraction
Thunderous Wrath
Shadow Rift
Grim Lavamancer
Forked Bolt
Preordain
Manamorphose
Price of Progress
Blistercoil Weird
Wee Dragonauts
Gelectrode
Storm Entity
Reforge the Soul
Temporal Mastery
Rift Bolt
Vanishment
Revenge of the Hunted
Banishing Stroke
Submerge
Rite of Flame
Epic Experiment
Patrician's Scorn
Sivvi's Ruse

My apologies for goin all crazy up in your thread Roob. It's the Adderall. Blame it on my ADD, baby.

HammafistRoob
12-15-2012, 02:21 AM
The problem with any pure pump spell is that they suck when you have no creatures in play. I've tried berserk and the doublestrike card before and i found them to be pretty horrendous. Although its worth noting that Fiend+Lava Dart+Berserk=gg for a mere two mana. If I were to run any type of pump spell it would be as a two of in the side. Most likely the doublestrike card since berserk would require a weaker manabase. I would definitely play magma jet if it wasn't two mana. But I'm really hesitant in even testing cards that cost two (I'm looking at you Fire/Ice) because I love being able to cast two or possibly three spells off two lands.

I haven't tried any bounce spells yet, but I think I would rather have snuff outs in that slot if I didn't feel that burn is efficient enough, which I do. But I will give snuff out a try, I can't belive I forgot about that little gem being a black player at heart.

About the 8 creatures, test the deck please... I think your missing the fact that there are 16 cantrips. Are there any competitive decks that run more than 8 removal spells? And on top of that I can dig through my deck like a madman if I need a creature. Grim Lavamancer is decent but I really disliked having situations arise where I had the Fiend out with only counters/lands/creatures in hand. I've built the deck trying to maximize on the number of instants and sorceries. This makes Delver and Fiend insanely consistent at getting their jobs done efficiently. If you do have any problems sticking a creature I'd recommend siding in the extra burn and counters. Against Stoneblade and certain builds of Miracles I've been siding out creatures for burn and counters and having great success. Blanking all their removal while laughing at their clock.

I wasn't raging, although I was speaking the truth in a vigorous manner no doubt. It's rather annoying that people say DelverBurn!!!! When I already addressed that in the OP, I run more cantrips, less lands, less creatures and a different burn package. People see Delver and Burn spells so they assume it plays the same as delverburn(ironic statement when taken out of context). I figured if I posted this in that thread people would simply dismiss it because they <3 their Lavamancers and GobGuides so I made my own thread. Team America has two threads, LED Dredge is also very similar to LEDless, but yet again two different threads.

Anyways thanks for the list of cards Hanni, I'm definitely gonna tinker around a bit with a few of those. Distortion Strike is especially interesting so Ill do some testing. Thanks for showing some respect as you know I respect you. And no problem I love me some pills as well, although I don't have ADD... I just love drugs. Rastafar-I bro. Speaking of that I'm going to roll up so maybe Ill be back with more after some green inspiration haha.

slave
12-16-2012, 10:57 AM
About the 8 creatures, test the deck please... I think your missing the fact that there are 16 cantrips.
And on top of that I can dig through my deck like a madman if I need a creature.
Grim Lavamancer is decent but I really disliked having situations arise where I had the Fiend out with only counters/lands/creatures in hand.
... I just love drugs.

I like your last line, so I had to quote that...

I gave the list a go, and I had consistency problems.
This deck relies on not having to mull down to a small hand to find a threat, I feel.
I realise blue cantrip can get around this like you said, but I don't wanna have to spend all that on finding a threat in the first place.

Considering how many spells you're running, have you considered Guttersnipe?
I tried running it as a two-of in the deck, and as long as it sticks, it's a genuine threat.
I realise it's a heavy mana-investment for a small body, but an opponent is gonna be reluctant to get into a counter war if they're low on health.
It's an alternate win-con if you can't attack your opponent with a Fiend/Delver.

What you said about being stuck with land in hand?
I'd also want that swapped for face-damage, I'm gonna give a 2-of Flame Jab a go.
Given you have 4 Lava Dart in there, I'm not sure how useful it may be, but I'll give it a go.