anti-BUG control cards/techs?

[twndomn]

As RUG delver is on the decline and BUG control is on the rise, SB hate against BUG becomes the popular discussion recently. Please don't discuss deck vs BUG control. If you want to discuss match-up for each established deck, we already have corresponding threads for those. This is to discuss cards people have not thought of, innovative tech against BUG control.

to put in context, here's a list of BUG control
BUG by Brian Braun-Duin
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Counterspell
1 Darkblast
2 Life from the Loam
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou

Some cards come into my mind:
1. Leyline of Sanctity
This card is more feasible if your deck has White; ie Maverick/Miracle/Death and Taxes. However, if you open the SB game with this baby, BUG's typical opening with Inquisition or Thoughtseize is simply negated. Then even if BUG resolves Liliana, the important part of her abilities are blocked, and of course, immune from Abrupt Decay.

2. Divert and Misdirection
Early game, you get to bounce Inquisition or Thoughtseize back to them. Mid to late game, how about redirecting Abrupt Decay onto their own Goyf or Liliana? However, The key then would become how would you bait BUG into AD? This route seems to be more suited for Delver decks.

3. Darksteel Brute
The artifact is immune from Abrupt Decay and it can block Goyf all day. The card is not a creature be default, hence Liliana cannot make you sacrificing it, as a result, you can even ask the Brute to attack Liliana while BUG only has Shaman to defend for her. Hence, this card would force BUG control to be on the defensive, unless BUG player wants to race life total, putting Liliana at risk. This is probably the universal solution, no color required.

4. Rest in Peace
self-explanatory, immediate removal of graveyard to shut down DS and Goyf, vulnerable to AD but that's not a justifiable reason to not consider this card.

5. Mirran Crusader
As people have mentioned, sometimes the best idea is to just overwhelm BUG control with permanents, hence you need multiple copies of this. As long as you don't lose this to planeswalker, you can ride this to victory.

more idea, guys?

[lochlan]

Please don't discuss deck vs BUG control. If you want to discuss match-up for each established deck, we already have corresponding threads for those.

What you're asking for doesn't make sense. It's meaningless to discuss good sideboard cards/tech outside the context of a particular deck. Besides that the card in question has to be castable in a given deck, it's also preferable for it to somehow fit into an existing slot/plan.

You actually demonstrate this yourself, for example, when you say the following:

[Leyline of Sanctity] is more feasible if your deck has White; ie Maverick/Miracle/Death and Taxes.

I would suggest actively engaging in a discussion about, as you put it, "deck vs BUG control," rather than trying to discourage those kinds of posts.

[kiblast]

If you can afford to play it, cast Blood Moon when they don't have mana open to float for BG-> Decay. Moon just rapes them if it lands. The thing is that it falls under Pierce and Decay so it's pretty difficult to stick.

[[sic]]

Choke, Blood Moon, Back to Basics.

[twndomn]

;691763']Choke, Blood Moon, Back to Basics.

To think that a CMC 3 enchantment would deter BUG control is overly simplistic. Most of time, BUG control would have at least 1 Deathrite Shaman in play. Hence, he just need to open the game with at least 1 Basic land, he should have no problem playing Abrupt Decay to get rid of whatever CMC 3 enchantment you have. That is not to mention you have to get pass counter. I doubt a deck running Blood Moon would have much counters to begin with.

[damionblackgear]

To think that a CMC 3 enchantment would deter BUG control is overly simplistic. Most of time, BUG control would have at least 1 Deathrite Shaman in play. Hence, he just need to open the game with at least 1 Basic land, he should have no problem playing Abrupt Decay to get rid of whatever CMC 3 enchantment you have. That is not to mention you have to get pass counter. I doubt a deck running Blood Moon would have much counters to begin with.

Denver challenge accepted.

[Barook]

How effective would Elspeth be?

She can assassinate Planeswalkers, is immune to AD and, if you run it, is an evasive 2-turn clock with Mirran Crusader.

[Amon Amarth]

These BUG decks look pretty vulnerable to those burn spells.

[Kap'n Cook]

The answer to every "How do I beat deck X?" question is play Imperial Painter.

[(nameless one)]

The answer to every "How do I beat deck X?" question is play Imperial Painter.

Times like this I still hope that one day, Imperial Recruiter or a functional version will see a reprint. Until then, we're all stuck playing blue decks.

[Barook]

Times like this I still hope that one day, Imperial Recruiter or a functional version will see a reprint. Until then, we're all stuck playing blue decks.

I guess Imperial Recruiter is already too expensive to have a realistic chance of being reprinted.

If they did a "functional" reprint, it would probably white nowadays.

[Shawon]

If you're looking for cards in general that would be efficient against BUG or Deathrite Shaman, I have found Relic of Progenitus to be a solid candidate. Casting it on turn 1 and using its 1st ability every turn pretty much shuts down all 4 DRS for the rest of the game if your BUG opponent doesn't Decay it. Relic also has the added bonus of being good against Snapcaster Mage. I think it's nifty that a Relic can act as an effective counterspell (or Counterbalance) against a Snapcaster flashbacking an uncounterable spell like Abrupt Decay. Relic would seem obscenely annoying against the BUG list you posted.

As for decks? Burn would be an obvious choice.

[Mr. Safety]

I've had 4x Leyline of Sanctity sideboarded in my junk/rock list for ages, always for matchups like Burn, Aggro-Loam, and Storm. It also happens to be good against Deathrite Shaman and planeswalkers that target.

Regardless, I would love to open up discussion like this:

1) Deck of choice: (ie Maverick)
2) How to deal with BUG control.

Following that format would get a shit-ton of discussion going, I think.

[nicoleptik]

How effective would Elspeth be?

She can assassinate Planeswalkers, is immune to AD and, if you run it, is an evasive 2-turn clock with Mirran Crusader.

I just made top8 of a 50 people tournament on saturday, running 2 Mirran crusaders in my Maverick maindeck as i was planning a lot of BUG. Did 12 damages to one of my BUG opponent with mirran + noble + elspeth, it felt good:cool:

[catmint]

Deathrite Shaman does not target a player!

Relic of Progenitus is better than RIP imo - especially when played early. Problem with RIP is that BUG can just trade with it and then the GY can build up again. If Bug wants to trade for Relic you can crack it in response and then you are up a card. Also with 1 mana up you can always threaten to cribble the goyf, shamans or snapcasters. HOWEVER, I would only recommend relic in decks which are grindy in nature aka Goblins, UW,... Linear decks (Merfolk, Elves, combo, burn variants,...) should not use anti-gy techs but just focus on implementing their gameplan.

Non-basic enchantments used to be very bad for old BUG control. Now we are playing basics, shaman & decay (among the all-stars: "counter & discard"). I would for this to win you a ton of games.

4cmc Planeswalkers are a solid choice and SD.top are solid choices for every deck going long.

Also BUG control is now a much more midrangy deck running a ton of creatures. Therefore running less deed and relying more on spot removal. -> shroud, protection from black, tokens are a good idea.

Having less 1cmc removal than a typical blue aggro-control deck BUG is also very vulnerable to Mother of Runes & Thalia.

In general is Burn and Dredge still a bad matchup, but got a lot better with shaman.



Regardless, I would love to open up discussion like this:

1) Deck of choice: (ie Maverick)
2) How to deal with BUG control.


Think this should go to the individual threads of the deck. Here it is more about concepts.
Concerning Maverick: It is well positioned with Mother, Thalia, Ooze, 4cmc walkers and mirran cruasaders.

[SirTylerGalt]

Price of Progress is also pretty good against decks that play greedy manabases (tons of dual lands, mishra's factory, creeping tar pit, wasteland...).

[bruizar]

THe abyss is pretty good against bug. Deathmark destroys goyf and shaman for 1 cc, while also being good against stone forge mystic. Smallpox is pretty good too against any deck that wants to drop a turn 1 mana creature. Effects that leave a permanent into play are good ( stone forge fetching jitte, thragtusk, etc).

Terminus is good, wog effects are good too.
Edit: a very undervalued card is lantern of insight. This card is so good at preventing problem cards such as pulse, goyf or entreat the angels while also giving you perfect information for cabal therapy. Paired with Duskmantle or something else that mills, you can fateseal someone quickly.

[Mark Sun]

Suspend Ancestral Vision.

[Antonius]

Gideon Jurra seems insane against BUG.

[Mr. Safety]

Deathrite Shaman does not target a player!

DOH! Dumbass of the day award goes to.......me.


Think this should go to the individual threads of the deck. Here it is more about concepts.
Concerning Maverick: It is well positioned with Mother, Thalia, Ooze, 4cmc walkers and mirran cruasaders.

I didn't clue in to what my suggestion actually meant...of course it fits in the individual deck threads.

[twndomn]

Gideon Jurra <- bad idea, you can kill creatures, but Liliana would still get to you.

The abyss <- it's a good card, but CMC is a bit high, difficult to resolve. The game might not matter by then. This is assuming this card did not just meet discard and you draw into it.

Price of Progress <- this card doesn't mean anything if it is non-lethal. BUG can always try to counter it, even if PoP is lethal, BUG can still gain life off Deathrite Shaman. This is too fragile.

The problem with Relic is that it deals with DS/Goyf aspect of the game, but it does not deal with Liliana. Still that card is worthy of consideration.

Sure, if you want to defeat BUG control, you can always play Goblin/Merfolk/Maverick. Unless BUG control has Pernicious Deed in the SB, it's impossible to fight aggro decks with just target removal. Hence, I don't think above mention decks need to concern too much about BUG.

[Antonius]

Gideon Jurra <- bad idea, you can kill creatures, but Liliana would still get to you.

Liliana is pretty useless against Gideon.

[twndomn]

Liliana is pretty useless against Gideon.

I don't see why BUG would allow Gideon to resolve at first place. Even if you resolve Gideon, Liliana's ultimate would make you sacrifice enough permanents so that you would regret playing Gideon.

[Shawon]

I don't see why BUG would allow Gideon to resolve at first place. Even if you resolve Gideon, Liliana's ultimate would make you sacrifice enough permanents so that you would regret playing Gideon.

No one ever uses Liliana's ultimate in Legacy.

[Amon Amarth]

Gideon Jurra <- bad idea, you can kill creatures, but Liliana would still get to you.

The abyss <- it's a good card, but CMC is a bit high, difficult to resolve. The game might not matter by then. This is assuming this card did not just meet discard and you draw into it.

Price of Progress <- this card doesn't mean anything if it is non-lethal. BUG can always try to counter it, even if PoP is lethal, BUG can still gain life off Deathrite Shaman. This is too fragile.

The problem with Relic is that it deals with DS/Goyf aspect of the game, but it does not deal with Liliana. Still that card is worthy of consideration.

Sure, if you want to defeat BUG control, you can always play Goblin/Merfolk/Maverick. Unless BUG control has Pernicious Deed in the SB, it's impossible to fight aggro decks with just target removal. Hence, I don't think above mention decks need to concern too much about BUG.

The only deck that uses PoP is Burn and it will almost always be lethal when they cast it. Deathrite Shaman will never live to untap against a deck with approx. 1 million removal spells.

Relic seem decent against BUG but I've never tested that card against them.

I'm not sure why anyone would want The Abyss against BUG. It's actively terrible against the Shardless Agent versions and pretty poor elsewhere.

[wcm8]

UR Delver Burn seems good. You get the benefits of a Waste-proof mana base, Price of Progress, Brainstorm (as a 'counter' to targeted discard), the possibility of tech cards like Divert and a fast clock. Because most of BUG's removal is 2cmc, your Goblin Guides and Delver can get in for a few swings before getting killed. I would play this over Mono Red every day of the week.

[Antonius]

I don't see why BUG would allow Gideon to resolve at first place. Even if you resolve Gideon, Liliana's ultimate would make you sacrifice enough permanents so that you would regret playing Gideon.

You go +0 and crush liliana with six damage.

[Shawon]

Relic seem decent against BUG but I've never tested that card against them.


Relic is effing good against BUG, especially DRS. If they use DRS to exile anything of yours, you can effectively counter whatever ability they tap it with by targeting yourself with Relic and removing whatever you want. Sure, Decay can hit it, but drawing a card from that happening isn't a bad deal.

[Oiolosse]

Relic is effing good against BUG, especially DRS. If they use DRS to exile anything of yours, you can effectively counter whatever ability they tap it with by targeting yourself with Relic and removing whatever you want. Sure, Decay can hit it, but drawing a card from that happening isn't a bad deal.

Haha, I like that. But, I think it is telling of how powerful DRS is. Cause are we talking about Anti-BUG or anti Shaman. I do concede that relic is very versatile outside of that function.

[Shawon]

Also, Ground Seal.

[Barook]

Wouldn't be Grim Lavamancer be pretty good as well? Kills DRS (they normally shouldn't be able to remove enough cards fast enough to completely empty your yard), provides reach and is also able to threaten Planeswalkers.

[T-101]

No one ever uses Liliana's ultimate in Legacy.

Except BUG control. It happens quite often actually... well unless they scoop first.

[Megadeus]

I fire Lili Ultumates off pretty often in legacy when I played Nic fit

[twndomn]

Joe talks about his experiment in SB against BUG:
http://blog.mtgdeals.com/oarsman/miracles-vs-abrupt-decay/