Is Dredge still viable in legacy?

[NecroYawgmoth]

http://i.imagebanana.com/img/lyb0qtl7/Hate.JPG

No seriously...


I am asking myself how viable Dredge / Manaless Dredge or whatever variants are, and how viable they will be in the future.

Dredge-Hate is in at least 50% of the maindecks nowadays. [I am talking about high and experienced metas, not just small random events]

For example:
-Maverick plays ~2 Oozes.
-UW Decks play RiP main.
-BUG Decks play Deathrite Shaman main [and I am sure more decks will follow this trend]. DR-Shaman is a VERY strong card.

Postboard it doesn't get better because we have to fight with even more hatecards.

More examples:
-U-Decks run Grafdiggers cuz they woke up and understood that Cage & counterprotection is almost everytime GG.
-Fast decks like combo also run Cage because they only need to delay us 1-2 turns.
-Even Goblins start to play RiP in their board, because the card is SO strong.

We don't live in 2011 anymore. People "learned" how to play against dredge. They know that they can nuke our Bridges and have a lot more understanding in the archetype. WotC also printed lots of evil cards against us.

It's also not like that Dredge players are fighting "soft" hate like Crypt, Leylines and Surgicals anymore. The hate is so hard nowadays that Dredge seems a very specific metadeck more than ever before. All the experienced Dredge players I know, including myself [except for 1 person] stopped playing the deck, because it seems impossible to win with it these days.

Is it even worth to play Dredge anymore, or does it get pushed out of legacy?

discuss

[feline]

This might help:
October-6th-2012 - 1st place - Nicolás Cabello - III Open Legacy Mtg Cantabria - Players: 146 - http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9284&iddeck=67757
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Darkblast
2 Careful Study
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
[SB]
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Angel of Despair
1 Darkblast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ichorid
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Terastodon

October-7th-2012 - 9th place - Gerry Thompson - StarCityGames.com Legacy Open - Cincinnati Ohio USA - Players: 205 - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=49891

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
2 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
[Sideboard]
2 Pithing Needle
1 Angel of Despair
3 Nether Shadow
3 Firestorm
4 Nature's Claim
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Undiscovered Paradise

October-14th-2012 - 9th place - Warren Connell - StarCityGames.com Legacy Open - Providence Rhode Island USA - Players: 175 - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50053

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
[Sideboard]
3 Angel of Despair
1 Ichorid
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Firestorm
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return

October-28th-2012 - 9th place - Joseph Mauer - StarCityGames.com Legacy Open - New Orleans Louisanna USA - players: 91 - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50394

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
1 Darkblast
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
[Sideboard]
3 Ashen Ghoul
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise

November-17th-2012 - 5th place - Marcos Sánchez - LCL 2012 Noviembre - Players: 109 - http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9604&iddeck=70133
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Dread Return
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
[SB]
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Ashen Ghoul
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Breakthrough
3 Firestorm
4 Nature's Claim

November-17th-2012 - 11th place - Adrià Romero - LCL 2012 Noviembre - Players: 109 - http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9604&iddeck=70133
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Dread Return
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
[SB]
2 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Nether Shadow
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
3 Noxious Revival

December-2nd-2012 - 4th place - Dan Walton - StarCityGames.com Legacy Open - Baltimore Maryland USA - players: 287 - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51275

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
1 Darkblast
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
[Sideboard]
2 Pithing Needle
3 Nether Shadow
1 Terastodon
2 Firestorm
3 Nature's Claim
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Dread Return

December-2nd-2012 - 13th place - Damon Whitby - StarCityGames.com Legacy Open - Baltimore Maryland USA - players: 287 - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51291

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
1 Darkblast
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
1 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
[Sideboard]
1 Ashen Ghoul
1 Terastodon
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Firestorm
2 Memory's Journey
4 Nature's Claim
1 Dread Return
1 Undiscovered Paradise

Even with the hate out there for it, the deck is still performing, all these are since the start of RTR Legacy.

[Nickm]

As a long time Dredge player I concur with your conclusion that Dredge is in perhaps the worst meta position ever. My love for the deck blinded me from this for some time and my results suffered because of it. I can see the deck coming back some day as perhaps a meta/gamble deck, when everyone stops running sideboard hate. For the time being however I would consider it effectively dead.

Even with the hate out there for it, the deck is still performing, all these are since the start of RTR Legacy.
This is true, but I think it's very safe to say that the explosion of Deathrite Shaman decks is bad for the deck and diminished it's results.

[Erdvermampfa]

No, it's not and to be honest, it has actually never been.

[Que]

and to be honest, it has actually never been.

Dredge seems to still be misunderstood ;_;

And to answer the question. It probably is a bad time, however, if people are going to be relying on md Shaman as their primary grave hate and cutting some back in the sb, doesn't sound too horrible. Shaman only activates once per turn and has to tap. I would be more scared of Ooze with green mana up and Maverick is losing its popularity (or so it looks). To shore up this shift in the meta one can look to start maindecking cards like Firestorm which can effectively answer the shaman and other pesky creatures while still keeping up with the game plan not to mention its an uncounterable discard outlet. Street Wraith will probably see some play as well. What I'm saying is that there should be more than enough fuel in your gy where the shaman wont be able to keep up. Also its nice that it actually can't eat Bridges unlike Ooze.

[SpikeyMikey]

I think that the existence of Rest in Peace and Deathrite Shaman has made people complacent about Dredge. I think Dredge is actually in a fine spot right now and even went so far as to suggest it as a deck to play in Denver to someone the other night. Too many people have assumed that DRS and RIP have killed all the GY decks and have started cutting GY hate themselves. So you're well positioned against those people. Miracles is pretty rough (instant speed Terminus? RIP main? ouch!) but the BUG decks? I mean yeah, they have 4 DRS. So in 40% of the G1's, you *don't* autowin. You can still win, it's just more grindy. Which is what you generally did against decks that brought in tons of hate anyway, tried to grind them out.

[Zombie]

In some way, I like the increase in maindeckable graveyard hate. I like it a lot. I played all kinds of random combo decks for years, until I realized the comboing off itself isn't that fun (some decks excepted, of course). The fun part is the fight to be able to. And most of all, that part is interesting for the opponent as well. If two decks don't interact, or the interactions are retarded (SnT, some hate pieces), there isn't much of a game. For there to be a game, there needs to be a common space that is being contested, and the maindeckable GY interactions are finally starting to add the graveyard to the list.

[Wilkin]

I would say out the GY based decks, Dredge is still viable. With faithless looting and LED starts, you can still win turn 1 to turn 3...

Rest in Peace main is devastating but honestly, Scavenging Ooze and Deathrite, while awesome might be too slow some games. Also, a lot of players are skimping on sideboard hate because of those cards main and the fact that there are less GY dependant decks out there.

Dredge, IMHO is still viable. In a 41 legacy event at the GP toronto, Dredge won out since most people didn't pack that much hate for it. However, other decks like Reanimator, I really wouldn't play that right now because while Deathrite can be annoying against a Dredge player, it's GG vs Reanimator. The only way I would think of trying Reanimator is if I played a version with some sort of mana acceleration to try and play a fattie turn 1.

[cyberjar]

People "learned" how to play against dredge.

No

[catmint]

I think dredge becomes more like storm in the sense of it is much harder to play it as a popular deck because there is so much "hate" out there, but as mentioned since dredge declines people consider it less in their deck design and competent & experienced pilots can win on any given day.

Dredge won't be a deck like Canadian, Stoneblade, Burn or Show&Tell which you can just pick up and feelyou have a fighting chance. And I think it is good this way. Before ooze, deathrite & RIP sb space was much smaller and a wider player base could win with dredge, but now it is more like a real commitment to the deck like you see it with storm players, who don't care about maindeck: Thalias, counterbalances, counterspells and discard.

I still hate to face a competent dredge player much more than a competent storm player :tongue: but it is necessary to keep as many different viable decks around. The less things you have to consider in deck design the more boring it is (like it was with MM).

[KobeBryan]

There was a time when you needed 4-5 cards in board against GY

Now, you probably can get away with using 3.

I wouldn't completely neglect using gy hate though.

[Michael Keller]

No, it's not and to be honest, it has actually never been.

This was amusing.

[Final Fortune]

I think that the existence of Rest in Peace and Deathrite Shaman has made people complacent about Dredge. I think Dredge is actually in a fine spot right now and even went so far as to suggest it as a deck to play in Denver to someone the other night. Too many people have assumed that DRS and RIP have killed all the GY decks and have started cutting GY hate themselves. So you're well positioned against those people. Miracles is pretty rough (instant speed Terminus? RIP main? ouch!) but the BUG decks? I mean yeah, they have 4 DRS. So in 40% of the G1's, you *don't* autowin. You can still win, it's just more grindy. Which is what you generally did against decks that brought in tons of hate anyway, tried to grind them out.

I agree, the main difference is game 1 isn't an automatic win for Dredge in a BUG metagame, but other than not being able to face roll thru' game 1s the deck is still pretty viable, especially if players think they can cut SB hate and lean on MD hate for 3 games - Firsestorm pretty much crushes the fuck out of Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze. RIP is definitely a problem, but Miracles only plays a couple of copies of RIP if they play the RIP/Helm combo at all.

I think the real deck that got fucked out of existance is Reanimator, Deathrite Shaman just shat all over that deck.

[theBloody]

No, it's not and to be honest, it has actually never been.

Buddy please...

[joemauer]

@NecroYawgmoth:

I know on the other side of the Atlantic it has always been tougher to play dredge with dredge being more popular and players packing more hate there. Over here it seems like a fine time to play dredge.

Sure RiP maindeck sucks, but it seemed to have replace our other nightmare matchups: Reanimator and Maverick. Playing a deck with virtually 5-6 maindeck ways to get us(GSZ+Ooze) versus 2-3 maindecked in most RiP decks seems to be in our favor. I would rather play against any other combo deck over Reanimator with the exception of Belcher, and it appears other combo decks are more popular than Reanimator due to Deathright Shaman.

Like others have pointed out, Dredge appears to be on the decline and people come to tourneys with less preparation for it.

While the new hate is more varied, they are still either slow or narrow. The scariest hate to have to face is still Leyline of the Void and Ooze.

Also, players are stupid. Players will still keep awful hands that have one piece of hate because dredge is a bad deck that just folds to hate.

[Sloshthedark]

sure it is when unexpected+decent player, also SB hate dropped a little bit and the deck is underplayed

[lordofthepit]

Does Deathrite Shaman really count as hate any more so than Lightning Bolt or dozens of other cards? It seems only effective turn one on the play if your opponent is on a really slow dredge hand.

[Vandalize]

Dredge will always be viable, in any given metagame. The deck doesn't interact with Magic as the other decks do. People are just in a Deathrite Shaman hype, and playing that card in every deck. Pretty much like it was with Stoneforge Mystic. I've almost seen people sharing lists with Deathrite Shaman in Solidarity threads. Just a Hype.

Dredge (LED versions) will ONLY care about Deathrite Shaman when it comes down turn 1 on the play. Otherwise, you just shit on their face, and play draw spells to get a minimum board position that lets you win (I'd say 5+ zombies in turn 1~2). BUG's Hymn to Tourach and permission is laughable. The only card I'd be afraid of is Pernicious Deed, as it can blow up your tokens good.

About Rest in Peace, it's indeed a strong card. But it does have a little problem that's called 2CMC. It's just too slow for LED Dredge variants (even on the play). I remember plenty of games when Merfolk was THE deck to beat. I could just combo out while they didn't have spare mana to activate Relic of Progenitus (which is a 2CMC hate as well).

Moreover, people with experience in the archtype can get away with slow lists (like Hollywood). That dude plays Manaless Dredge and rapes people without condoms.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Moreover, people with experience in the archtype can get away with slow lists (like Hollywood). That dude plays Manaless Dredge and rapes people without condoms.

While this is true, I can't see this happening with Manaless in the future when everybody is jumping on the Deathrite-train.

[Phoenix Ignition]

NecroYawgmoth: Dredge, you're not aimin' to kill nobody with all that graveyard hate in this meta.

Dredge: No, Ma, not that. That ain't it. It's just, well, as long as I'm a linear deck anyways... maybe I can do somethin'... maybe I can find a way to beat someone, just scrounge around and maybe find out what it is that's wrong and see if they ain't somethin' that can be done about it. Thought out my losing sideboard all clear, Ma. I can't. Linear decks can't do enough to put up with this.

NecroYawgmoth: How am I gonna know about ya, Dredge? Why they could remove ya completely from magic and I'd never know. They could make ya an obsolete deck.

Dredge: Well, maybe it's like they says. A linear deck ain't got a place in a format of its own, just little piece of a big subsection of the format, the one subsection that belongs to a lot of linear decks, then...

NY: Then what, Dredge?

Dredge: Then it don't matter. I'll be all around in the dark - I'll be everywhere. Wherever you can look - wherever there's a metagame that has grown complacent, so unprepared to fight graveyards, I'll be there. Wherever decks are trying to grind out their small win percentages against other decks through sideboard slots, I'll be there. I'll be in the way decks stop playing at least 4 sideboard cards against graveyards, be in the way people forget about how to play against this deck, and when the metagame has thought I'm completely dead and gone - I'll be there, too.

[Lord Seth]

NecroYawgmoth: Dredge, you're not aimin' to kill nobody with all that graveyard hate in this meta.

Dredge: No, Ma, not that. That ain't it. It's just, well, as long as I'm a linear deck anyways... maybe I can do somethin'... maybe I can find a way to beat someone, just scrounge around and maybe find out what it is that's wrong and see if they ain't somethin' that can be done about it. Thought out my losing sideboard all clear, Ma. I can't. Linear decks can't do enough to put up with this.

NecroYawgmoth: How am I gonna know about ya, Dredge? Why they could remove ya completely from magic and I'd never know. They could make ya an obsolete deck.

Dredge: Well, maybe it's like they says. A linear deck ain't got a place in a format of its own, just little piece of a big subsection of the format, the one subsection that belongs to a lot of linear decks, then...

NY: Then what, Dredge?

Dredge: Then it don't matter. I'll be all around in the dark - I'll be everywhere. Wherever you can look - wherever there's a metagame that has grown complacent, so unprepared to fight graveyards, I'll be there. Wherever decks are trying to grind out their small win percentages against other decks through sideboard slots, I'll be there. I'll be in the way decks stop playing at least 4 sideboard cards against graveyards, be in the way people forget about how to play against this deck, and when the metagame has thought I'm completely dead and gone - I'll be there, too.Hahahahaha.

[Vacrix]

Dredge is running into the same problem that TES/ANT did with Maverick.. only TES and ANT are much better equipped to deal with Thalia and GSZ--> Teeg than Dredge is to deal with DRS or RIP.. mostly because storm plays cantrips. Before Thalia, the matchup was basically a bye. Now, they have a solid maindeck way to really slow you down and sometimes steal a win (not including the advent of GSZ --> Teeg).. which happens more often if they run into their sideboard hate post-Thalia. And yet, UBx storm has remained a strong archetype. Dredge was on the same level for a while.. but unlike ANT players, the people who tend to continue playing Dredge actually know how to play magic.. that or they're just masochists. People playing ANT just press the start button.. recieve bacon.

In the long run, I see Dredge remaining a great choice for particular metagame shifts, but it IS losing power. The cards that fuck with Dredges graveyard are getting maindecked now; its different than being a great Dredge player and using your sideboard to play around the hate. Now you have to deal with maindeck answers AND sideboard answers.

The thing is.. even if the opponent is light on actual board material for Dredge, it doesn't matter if he mulligans into Land + DRS. My friend plays BUG control and he does that every time to beat Dredge. Sometimes Chain of Vapor and Firestorm is not enough.

[Gocho]

LED Dredge plays cantrips too. Most lists play 14 cantrips, and they help to find hate.

[Vacrix]

Those cantrips don't have the same kind of function as they do in storm. In Dredge, they are a cog in the engine to produce multiple Dredges in a single turn as well as being set up pieces that get Dredgers into the yard; in TES/ANT, the cantrips help you set up and play around hate/permission/disruption. Brainstorm and Ponder are far better for this purpose. For example, Breakthrough, Careful Study, Faithless Looting... might find you a Chain of Vapor, Firestorm, Nature's Claim, Ray of Revelation, but then what? You need a graveyard too to go off and the cantrips produce card disadvantage. Its possible that the card disadvantage is irrelevant because the cards will all hit the yard... but against most Dredge hate, the cards that hit the yard become lost resources to the hate piece. This doesn't happen in storm. You sit on your resources until you get rid of the blockade, then you go off. Dredge doesn't always have that luxury if its going to use its card-disadvantage-cantrips to find answers to hate.

[Michael Keller]

Even with cards like Rest in Peace and Deathrite Shaman, Dredge will continue to be a viable choice. There are unfortunately too many incompetent pilots for the deck to make noise, and it will continue to be what keeps the deck's numbers down.

There are so many factors that go into making a deck work, and Dredge is no different. It's success is measured greatly upon it's failures...because people hate Dredge.

Which is why I love it.

[Beatusnox]

Even with cards like Rest in Peace and Deathrite Shaman, Dredge will continue to be a viable choice. There are unfortunately too many incompetent pilots for the deck to make noise, and it will continue to be what keeps the deck's numbers down.

There are so many factors that go into making a deck work, and Dredge is no different. It's success is measured greatly upon it's failures...because people hate Dredge.

Which is why I love it.

Definitely Agree with Hollywood here, was at a dual lands tournament recently and went 2-2 drop after punting two rounds due to no sleep(seriously 1 hour of sleep before a huge Legacy tournament probably a bad idea). If it wasn't for me punting I would have been at least 3-x or 4-x and been able to draw my way to top 8. Hate exists, it has always existed. Deathrite stops a slow hand, but if you can go off turn 1 or 2 with multiple dredgers he doesn't really do too much. RiP as a maindeck card while frustrating is not unbeatable, just annoying.

Sure the deck has lost some of its guaranteed game 1 wins, but so what, those who love playing the deck will continue, and those who hate the deck will continue to pray to either not be matched against it, or will continue to either downplay it/complain about it.

[Ellomdian]

The amount of self-righteous bile flying around is nauseating... Dredge is a linear combo deck, no different in concept than Tide, AnT, Doomsday, or SnT. It abuses a particular vector in an effort to create a significant enough advantage to win games.

Having said that, I feel like the impact of DRS on Dredge may be a mite overstated, and that continues to be the most prevalent form of interaction decks will have G1 against dredge. I feel like dedicated dredge hate is on it's way out for the time being, and that opens up an opportunity to play Dredge. I have said a few times that I feel that Denver will be a healthy environment for combo - people are cutting too much permission and disruption to do cute crap, and it's going to bite when the fundamental turn drops back down.

TL;DR - Play dredge in mature Meta's if you want to.

[Mr. Froggy]

Those cantrips don't have the same kind of function as they do in storm. In Dredge, they are a cog in the engine to produce multiple Dredges in a single turn as well as being set up pieces that get Dredgers into the yard; in TES/ANT, the cantrips help you set up and play around hate/permission/disruption. Brainstorm and Ponder are far better for this purpose. For example, Breakthrough, Careful Study, Faithless Looting... might find you a Chain of Vapor, Firestorm, Nature's Claim, Ray of Revelation, but then what? You need a graveyard too to go off and the cantrips produce card disadvantage. Its possible that the card disadvantage is irrelevant because the cards will all hit the yard... but against most Dredge hate, the cards that hit the yard become lost resources to the hate piece. This doesn't happen in storm. You sit on your resources until you get rid of the blockade, then you go off. Dredge doesn't always have that luxury if its going to use its card-disadvantage-cantrips to find answers to hate.

In games 2/3 you can use your cantrips to find the hate, and hold off on your dredging. Once the path is clear, then you go off or what-not.

[Vacrix]

But what if your cantrip is Breakthrough? What then? You won't be sitting on resources in your hand. Even if you only hit Careful Studies and Faithless Looting, you lose resources to the graveyard hate.. and these cantrips are card disadvantage so you'll naturally have fewer resources when trying to go off.

I'm not saying it can't be done. Rather, it can be done and good Dredge players know how to work it out. However its much more difficult to do than in decks like ANT or TES because their cantrips are way better.. and its become increasingly more difficult when Dredge players are running into maindeck hate AND sideboard hate.

[Bobmans]

I guess it still is, considering the statistics:


#) Deck / Highest finish / # of top 16's Oct-1st-2012-to-Dec-31st-2012
01) RUG 1st 2 times / 41 top 16s
02) Esperblade 1st 2 times / 20 top 16s
03) Miracle control 1st 1 time / 19 top 16s
04) BUG aggro 1st 1 time / 13 top 16s
05) BUG control 1st 2 times / 12 top 16s
06) Maverick Highest finish 2nd / 10 top 16s
07) ANT Highest finish 3rd / 9 top 16s
08) Dredge 1st 1 time / 8 top 16s
09) High Tide 1st 2 times / 7 top 16s
10) Omnitell Highest finish 3rd / 6 top 16s
11) UR delver 1st 1 times / 6 top 16s
12) Goblins Highest finish 4th / 6 top 16s
13) Reanimator Highest finish 5th / 6 top 16s
14) Merfolk Highest finish 3rd / 5 top 16s
15) UWstoneblade 1st 1 times / 5 top 16s
16) Belcher Highest finish 5th / 5 top 16s
17) Death and Taxes Highest finish 3rd / 4 top 16s
18) Enchantress Highest finish 6th / 4 top 16s
19) Jund Highest finish 11th / 4 top 16s
20) Sneak and Show 1st 1 time / 3 top 16s
21) Zombies Highest finish 2nd / 3 top 16s
22) Bant Highest finish 4th / 3 top 16s
23) Aggro Loam 1st 1 time / 2 top 16s
24) MUD Highest finish 2nd / 2 top 16s
25) 12 post Highest finish 2nd / 2 top 16s
26) Junk Highest finish 2nd / 2 top 16s
27) TES Highest finish 3rd / 2 top 16s
28) Elves Highest finish 5th / 2 top 16s
29) Stiflenaught Highest finish 5th / 2 top 16s
30) Deadguy Ale Highest finish 6th / 2 top 16s
31) Mono blue aggro Highest finish 6th / 2 top 16s
32) Zoo Highest finish 7th / 2 top 16s
33) Lands Highest finish 8th / 2 top 16s
34) Pox Highest finish 13th / 2 top 16s

[TraxDaMax]

While this is true, I can't see this happening with Manaless in the future when everybody is jumping on the Deathrite-train.

I think this isn't thought through correctly. Manaless has like 12 maindeck answers for DRS turn one.

[NecroYawgmoth]

4 Street Wraith, 4 Phantasmagorian and...? Contagion / Shoal won't help you much. You DDD a Dredger and won't regain priority before they can remove it. If you kill Shaman here you are left with 5 handcards.

[DragoFireheart]

You'd think all this graveyard hate would completely shut out Dredge, but it just keeps coming back.

[Michael Keller]

4 Street Wraith, 4 Phantasmagorian and...? Contagion / Shoal won't help you much. You DDD a Dredger and won't regain priority before they can remove it. If you kill Shaman here you are left with 5 handcards.

Here are the cards that combat a turn-one Shaman:

[4x] Phantasmagorian
[4x] Street Wraith
[3x] Contagion
[1x] Shoal

That's twelve cards and an 80.94% shot of opening the game with some sort of way to stop it before it goes active, with an 85.25% shot of drawing removal if you didn't have it in your opening seven. Your opponent runs four Shaman, with a 39.95% shot of opening the game with at least one. You have almost double the chance of being able to contend with it with your opening seven as opposed to your opponent actually opening the game with only one of theirs.

You would draw a card for your turn (giving you eight), putting you at six cards left after knocking one off by exiling another card with said removal. That's only two turns your opponent gets before having to find another out, which also in turns give you a chance to draw into more removal or a counter-effect like Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian. Shaman really is only good if an opponent opens with it and you don't have an answer.

As you can see, that's often not going to be the case. I beat Doug McKay - a Legacy specialist - in the Quarterfinals of a huge event in Elmira, NY after having to contend with two Shamans, a Surgical Extraction and a Thought Hemorrhage!

Shaman is the least of the deck's worries.

[NecroYawgmoth]

only two turns

...

Two turns in Legacy. I doubt I need to say more.


Legacy specialist - Thought Hemorrhage!



:eyebrow:

[Michael Keller]

Two turns in Legacy. I doubt I need to say more.

Any deck that is running Deathrite Shaman isn't beating you in two turns, unless you know something I don't.

And Doug is one of the finest Legacy rogue specialists in the world. Regardless, you can beat hate; it just takes practice.

[TraxDaMax]

Here are the cards that combat a turn-one Shaman:

[4x] Phantasmagorian
[4x] Street Wraith
[3x] Contagion
[1x] Shoal

That's twelve cards and an 80.94% shot of opening the game with some sort of way to stop it before it goes active, with an 85.25% shot of drawing removal if you didn't have it in your opening seven. Your opponent runs four Shaman, with a 39.95% shot of opening the game with at least one. You have almost double the chance of being able to contend with it with your opening seven as opposed to your opponent actually opening the game with only one of theirs.


I'd gladly timewalk myself here to get rid of their hope and faith in Deathrite Shaman. I mean, often decks that play shaman will have a turn two hymn normally. They can't play hymn against us. If not that, probably a tarmogoyf, which isn't scary at all to be frank.