Scion of the Ur-Dragon

[bluevor]

I have heard from several people and even seen postings from level 2 judges saying that Scion can copy 2 dragons in a turn, leaving you the ability to do something like moltensteel pump+skittles

however the 2006 errata reads:
9/25/2006 Removing the other Dragon card from your graveyard has no effect on Scion of the Ur-Dragon.
9/25/2006 When Scion of the Ur-Dragon becomes a copy of another Dragon, it loses its copy ability for the rest of the turn.


So which is it? Can Scion copy 2 dragons in a turn or no?

[Koby]

I have heard from several people and even seen postings from level 2 judges saying that Scion can copy 2 dragons in a turn, leaving you the ability to do something like moltensteel pump+skittles

however the 2006 errata reads:
9/25/2006 Removing the other Dragon card from your graveyard has no effect on Scion of the Ur-Dragon.
9/25/2006 When Scion of the Ur-Dragon becomes a copy of another Dragon, it loses its copy ability for the rest of the turn.


So which is it? Can Scion copy 2 dragons in a turn or no?

You would need to activate Scion of Ur-Dragon's ability twice right away. The interaction I think you're referring to involves Moltensteel and Skythrx.

Here's how you pull it off:
Activate Scion paying :2:. (Call this A.)
In response, activate Scion paying :2:. (Call this B.)
Let activation B resolve, and copy Moltensteel Dragon.
In response to A, activate Moltensteel Dragon-Scion paying its phyrexian mana cost pump as many times as you wish.
Let all the Moltensteel Dragon-Scion activations resolve.
Let activation A resolve, searching for Skythrx and becoming a copy.

Attack with a X+4/4 Skythrx, where X is the amount of times you activated Moltensteel Dragon-Scion's pump ability.

[bluevor]

Would that not be in conflict with the current errata?

[Koby]

Would that not be in conflict with the current errata?

Once an ability is on the Stack, it doesn't matter what happened to the card that created that ability. Scion of Ur-Dragon loses it's copy ability after that ability resolves. However, if you stack multiple copy effects on the Stack, then it will copy a new dragon each time.

[bluevor]

Once an ability is on the Stack, it doesn't matter what happened to the card that created that ability. Scion of Ur-Dragon loses it's copy ability after that ability resolves. However, if you stack multiple copy effects on the Stack, then it will copy a new dragon each time.

So basically you are saying the errata doesnt matter as long as you do this in a stack... Also moltensteel + dragon tyrant would work too right? Pump with 5 pherixan mana (B) and then after B resolves Dragon tyrant (A) attacks for 22 doublestrike/general damage

Correct?

[Koby]

So basically you are saying the errata doesnt matter as long as you do this in a stack... Also moltensteel + dragon tyrant would work too right? Pump with 5 pherixan mana (B) and then after B resolves Dragon tyrant (A) attacks for 22 doublestrike/general damage

Correct?

Correct. All the "copy" effects have to be put on the stack right away, then resolve them in order to gain Instant-speed effects from each dragon.

[Beatusnox]

So basically you are saying the errata doesnt matter as long as you do this in a stack... Also moltensteel + dragon tyrant would work too right? Pump with 5 pherixan mana (B) and then after B resolves Dragon tyrant (A) attacks for 22 doublestrike/general damage

Correct?

I believe the reason it works is even though Scion Loses the 'pump' ability it does not lose the +x/+x that the pump ability grants the permanent much like how volrath's shapeshifter and cephalid inkshrouder allow you make the shapeshifter a random fatty with the inkshrouder's ability and the it is still unblockable and shrouded.

[cdr]

however the 2006 errata reads:

Just FYI, that is not errata - stuff like that on Gatherer is basically rules hints. It's not official card text or official rules, though it should generally be accurate.

[bluevor]

Just FYI, that is not errata - stuff like that on Gatherer is basically rules hints. It's not official card text or official rules, though it should generally be accurate.

Where are the official errata's or rulings on cards? You are agreeing to what we are talking about on these mechanics and current legality cdr?

Also does the worldgoer dragon still work with animate dead or no?

[cdr]

Where are the official errata's or rulings on cards? You are agreeing to what we are talking about on these mechanics and current legality cdr?

Also does the worldgoer dragon still work with animate dead or no?

"Errata" is reflected in the official Oracle text of cards, the source of which is Gatherer(.wizards.com). There are not any "errata" or "rulings" outside of Oracle text. The answer to any game question can be derived from the Oracle text and the comprehensive rules.

If a thread is up on here for a day or more chances are that the posted answers are correct. Substantially incorrect posts get deleted, partially incorrect posts will be corrected. I check this forum at least a couple times a day.

And yes, Worldgorger combos still "work".

[bluevor]

"Errata" is reflected in the official Oracle text of cards, the source of which is Gatherer(.wizards.com). There are not any "errata" or "rulings" outside of Oracle text. The answer to any game question can be derived from the Oracle text and the comprehensive rules.

If a thread is up on here for a day or more chances are that the posted answers are correct. Substantially incorrect posts get deleted, partially incorrect posts will be corrected. I check this forum at least a couple times a day.

And yes, Worldgorger combos still "work".

Thanks

but what does this mean?

Rulings

10/4/2004 It is possible for the Dragon to leave the battlefield before its "enters the battlefield" trigger resolves. If this happens, then the "leaves the battlefield" trigger will have nothing to return and the "enters the battlefield" trigger's effects will be irreversible.
8/1/2005 If an Aura is exiled this way, you can place it on any legal permanent when it returns. It doesn't have to go back to the same place. It can't be placed on a permanent that is entering the battlefield at the same time.

The infinite mana combo from worldgorger is unaffected by the ruling?

[cdr]

Thanks

but what does this mean?

Rulings

10/4/2004 It is possible for the Dragon to leave the battlefield before its "enters the battlefield" trigger resolves. If this happens, then the "leaves the battlefield" trigger will have nothing to return and the "enters the battlefield" trigger's effects will be irreversible.
8/1/2005 If an Aura is exiled this way, you can place it on any legal permanent when it returns. It doesn't have to go back to the same place. It can't be placed on a permanent that is entering the battlefield at the same time.

The infinite mana combo from worldgorger is unaffected by the ruling?

I wish Gatherer wouldn't use the term "ruling" since it can confuse people. Those are, again, pretty much rules hints - tips about various interactions with the card. If you don't understand the rules, you may not understand those two tips.

Both of those tips are completely irrelevant to the functioning of the "infinite mana combo".

[bluevor]

I played some EDH yesterday and the players I was with couldnt understand why the moltensteel +1+0 pumps would count after it stops being molten steel and starts being skittles

I couldn't clearly explain it... can you offer a clear explanation that I can relay next time we play?

[Koby]

I played some EDH yesterday and the players I was with couldnt understand why the moltensteel +1+0 pumps would count after it stops being molten steel and starts being skittles

I couldn't clearly explain it... can you offer a clear explanation that I can relay next time we play?

There's no clear way to explain it without delving deep into the Layer system, which governs how cards are copied and which copy-able traits are retained.

Short answer: temporary effects like +X/+0 pumping are maintained even when the card being affected is now something different.

Long answer: Copy effects are applied first (i.e., become Moltensteel Dragon), then any Power/Toughness changing effect that doesn’t set the P/T specifically.

Longer answer: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=judge/article/20091105a

[cdr]

Koby's answer is good. To attempt another short/simple summary, a) effects are always around until their duration expires b) if you want to know what a creature looks like, you apply all effects that currently apply to it in a certain order - copy effects are always applied before P/T changing effects.

[bluevor]

One last question, moltensteel says specifically "moltensteel dragon" gets +1+0 until end of turn for each red/2 life you spend

The +1 effects stick to skittles even though the card says that "moltensteel" gets the pump?

Thanks for your help!

[Viridia]

What is basically means if that is written on a card, is that the creature gets the +1/+0, regardless of how it's called at a later point in the turn.

You could replace it with "This creature gets: ...."

[cdr]

When a card uses its own name, it means "this". It only refers to that card and not other cards with the same name, and it doesn't matter if the card's name changes. The name is used in text because it reads better.