Revising my old B/G vintage deck to legacy

[Trickykid]

Hello there

I'm an old returning mtg player, who used to play type 1 (I think it was called back in the days), who's now looking to start playing legacy. Therefore I'm fiddling with my old Necropotence suicide B/G deck, and trying to make it fit the legacy format for local tournament play.

It's actually more of a complete overhaul rather than just a revision, as I of course lose all my rather overpowered glory in Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Will, Mind Twist and so on.
Anyhow, I'm going for a pretty straight forward deck that relies on fast land and hand disruption, followed by relatively cheap but solid creatures to seal the deal. My means of controlling the board lies in generous use of Pernicious Deeds and a host of more or less targeted disruption.

For starters (remember, I'm just returning to the game after a good 10 years or so of exile), regarding newer cards, I've added 4 Abrupt Decay and 4 Vampire Nighthawks, as they seem to fit the theme rather well. Other than that, I know I should add Thoughtseize instead of Duress and of course the mighty Tarmogoyf, but sadly they're way, way too pricey for me at the moment, so that's pretty much out of the question as of now. I was wondering if Thragtusk would fit in because of it's sheer versatility, but I reckon that it's a bit too mana heavy to justify.
I'd really appreciate any ideas on how to improve the deck. I haven't got a clue about my local metagame (which is also why I haven't added any sideboard yet), so it's more a question of general rather than targeted improvement.

Any thoughts and ideas would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

EDIT: This is my current build. It'll most likely change as I get even more input from you guys.

Mana base (20)
4x Bayou
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Forest
4x Swamp
4x Wasteland

Disruption: (22)
3x Maelstrom Pulse or Pernicious Deed
3x Go for the Throat
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Abrupt Decay

Creatures: (14)
4x Hypnotic Specter or Vampire Nighthawk
4x Tombstalker
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Nantuko Shade

Other: (3)
4x Grisly Salvage

[bruizar]

Your deck is very old school. The way I would build a deck is to look at your metagame and decide what strategy is most effective against the top decks of your metagame. Then sculpt your sideboard so that it addresses the weaker matchups. That said, if you still want to pursue this deck there are some cards that I think should be replaced.

Duress + Sinkhole versus Inquisition of Kozilek + Sinkhole. You are running 8 land destruction spells. Inquisition hits creatures, duress doesn't. The drawback of IoK is reduced due to your strip effects.

Vampire Nighthawk. Very slow clock and dies to bolt. Would rather have Baleful Strix but they both don't fit the aggressiveness of a suicide deck.


My advice is to take a look at UB Death shadow. That deck is most comparable to the suicide strategy.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24682-u-b-deaths-shadow/page4

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25321_UB-Nivmagus-Primer.html

[fogxanic]

This deck needs atleast 2 Liliana of the Veil and Diabolic Edicts over Chainers Edict. Or cut basic forests and play more fetches and you can play Geth's Verdicts.

[Trickykid]

Your deck is very old school. The way I would build a deck is to look at your metagame and decide what strategy is most effective against the top decks of your metagame. Then sculpt your sideboard so that it addresses the weaker matchups. That said, if you still want to pursue this deck there are some cards that I think should be replaced.

Duress + Sinkhole versus Inquisition of Kozilek + Sinkhole. You are running 8 land destruction spells. Inquisition hits creatures, duress doesn't. The drawback of IoK is reduced due to your strip effects.

Vampire Nighthawk. Very slow clock and dies to bolt. Would rather have Baleful Strix but they both don't fit the aggressiveness of a suicide deck.


My advice is to take a look at UB Death shadow. That deck is most comparable to the suicide strategy.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24682-u-b-deaths-shadow/page4

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25321_UB-Nivmagus-Primer.html

Thank you for replying!
You're absolutely right, it is very old school, and I hear you about deciding strategy according to metagame, however I feel I need to start somewhere with the cards I already have.

About Duress/Inquisition, I feel like I have plenty creature board removal which should counter the downside of Duress a bit. As I said though, I have no idea about the current day metagame, so perhaps the drawback of the 3 mana tops removal from Inquisition could be justified.

Regarding the Vampire Nighthawk, I think you're absolutely right. I used to run Masticores, but I don't see them as viable without my beloved Necropotence, so they were just a quick fix, which should probably be revised. I don't see myself splashing blue at this point for Baleful Strix, but I'll most definately take a look at the B/U deck you proposed.

Thanks again. It's much appreciated.

[Trickykid]

This deck needs atleast 2 Liliana of the Veil and Diabolic Edicts over Chainers Edict. Or cut basic forests and play more fetches and you can play Geth's Verdicts.

I haven't really delved into the whole Planeswalker thing yet, and I barely know how they work. I need to catch up on that asap. About the Geth's Verdict, they look really solid, and I could proably get a few fetches instead of the forests, as you suggest.

Thanks for the advice.

[bruizar]

Duress is only played in combo decks to remove force of will or other counters and in sideboards against combo decks. Nearly all other decks play either Inquisition of Kozilek, Thoughtseize or Cabal Therapy, or a combination of these. The reason for this is because there are certain problem cards like Delver of Secrets, which will come down very quickly and end the game if not dealt with.

You have Chainer's Edicts (These should indeed be liliana or a mix of go for the throat / dismember/ ghastly demise / any other appropriate spot removal spell in black.

Edict effects are generally not that good. They serve a purposeagainst reanimator (thiough that deck died with deathrite shaman) but you can't rely solely on edicts. Fetching Dryad Arbor in response to an edict / liliana activation is a real thing, and turn 1 deathrite shaman / noble hierarch and even just a flash Snapcaser Mage is going to blank your edict effects even more as you won't be hitting Tombstalkers or Knight of the Reliquary with it very often.

[bruizar]

I would also look at Loam Pox for inspiration. That deck isn't particularly good or bad, but you run many of the same cards and the attrition war is similar to what you are trying to accomplish.


http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_loam_pox_with_ali_ai.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23759-All-A-Loam-Playing-Pox-In-Indianapolis.html

[Trickykid]

Duress is only played in combo decks to remove force of will or other counters and in sideboards against combo decks. Nearly all other decks play either Inquisition of Kozilek, Thoughtseize or Cabal Therapy, or a combination of these. The reason for this is because there are certain problem cards like Delver of Secrets, which will come down very quickly and end the game if not dealt with.

You have Chainer's Edicts (These should indeed be liliana or a mix of go for the throat / dismember/ ghastly demise / any other appropriate spot removal spell in black.

Edict effects are generally not that good. They serve a purposeagainst reanimator (thiough that deck died with deathrite shaman) but you can't rely solely on edicts. Fetching Dryad Arbor in response to an edict / liliana activation is a real thing, and turn 1 deathrite shaman / noble hierarch and even just a flash Snapcaser Mage is going to blank your edict effects even more as you won't be hitting Tombstalkers or Knight of the Reliquary with it very often.

Point taken about Duress.
I should probably be able to trade me to a couple of Lilianas, so that's a feasibly option too with a few spot removers. I have so much to learn about all these new cards and decks.

Thanks again, buddy.

[Trickykid]

I would also look at Loam Pox for inspiration. That deck isn't particularly good or bad, but you run many of the same cards and the attrition war is similar to what you are trying to accomplish.


http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_loam_pox_with_ali_ai.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23759-All-A-Loam-Playing-Pox-In-Indianapolis.html

That looks like a pretty interesting deck.
Also, the more I see Thoughtseize, the more I want it in my deck. Shame about it's absurd price at the moment.

[Greenpoe]

Dark Ritual, Hypnotic Specter, Sinkhole, Abrupt Decay, Hymn to Tourach, Pernicious Deed? You've got Eva green! You'll just need a playset of Confidants and a couple Lilianas. (check out the Eva Green thread, there's a few different ways to build the deck, anyway)

[Trickykid]

Dark Ritual, Hypnotic Specter, Sinkhole, Abrupt Decay, Hymn to Tourach, Pernicious Deed? You've got Eva green! You'll just need a playset of Confidants and a couple Lilianas. (check out the Eva Green thread, there's a few different ways to build the deck, anyway)

Holy crap! I have never heard of that deck before now, but it sure does look a whole lot like the oldschool B/G suicide deck. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll take a closer look at that asap.

[civet five]

Not to keep piling it on, but it is important to note that Phyrexian Negator has not stood the test of the time and is not playable. You probably remember the days of Sabre Bargain, Replenish, Sligh, Rec-Sur, Rising Waters, 2 consecutive Mono Brown Worlds etc, and so much has changed since then. Even Legacy, with all of its card quality, is mostly about creatures, and removal is all over the place - Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares are tier 1 cards now. In virtually ever game you play, Negator will either:

1) eat a Lightning Bolt
2) get chumped by tokens and/or weenies
3) be staring down a Tarmogoyf that you're unwilling to attack into
4) staring down a fattie like Emrakul and crapping its Yawgmoth-given pants

The best advice, as noted earlier in the thread, is to read up heavily on the Eva Green and Pox threads. Then, read up on the other threads, especially the Deck to Beat threads, and understand how those decks play and why they are considered good. Proxy up everything. Let go of things you want so badly to make work, like Pandemonium-SapBurst, Gro-a-Tog, U/G Madness, Wake, Affinity (though Affinity is the closest thing to playable in its Standard form). I personally still durdle a lot with old school style decks, like this throwback to Tradewind-Survival: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9776&iddeck=71377, and the current form of Secret Force/Tooth and Nail: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9674&iddeck=70629

In fact, check out this entire site for an understand of what decklists are placing: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/formato.php?format=Legacy&lang=EN

[Trickykid]

Not to keep piling it on, but it is important to note that Phyrexian Negator has not stood the test of the time and is not playable. You probably remember the days of Sabre Bargain, Replenish, Sligh, Rec-Sur, Rising Waters, 2 consecutive Mono Brown Worlds etc, and so much has changed since then. Even Legacy, with all of its card quality, is mostly about creatures, and removal is all over the place - Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares are tier 1 cards now. In virtually ever game you play, Negator will either:

1) eat a Lightning Bolt
2) get chumped by tokens and/or weenies
3) be staring down a Tarmogoyf that you're unwilling to attack into
4) staring down a fattie like Emrakul and crapping its Yawgmoth-given pants

The best advice, as noted earlier in the thread, is to read up heavily on the Eva Green and Pox threads. Then, read up on the other threads, especially the Deck to Beat threads, and understand how those decks play and why they are considered good. Proxy up everything. Let go of things you want so badly to make work, like Pandemonium-SapBurst, Gro-a-Tog, U/G Madness, Wake, Affinity (though Affinity is the closest thing to playable in its Standard form). I personally still durdle a lot with old school style decks, like this throwback to Tradewind-Survival: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9776&iddeck=71377, and the current form of Secret Force/Tooth and Nail: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9674&iddeck=70629

In fact, check out this entire site for an understand of what decklists are placing: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/formato.php?format=Legacy&lang=EN

Thanks for that valuable input. I have indeed ditched the Negators, most likely in favour of a Tombstalker/Grisly Salvage combo + my old friend; Nantuko Shade.
I'll post my revised build later on.

I'll take a look at the site you recommended. This game has changed so much since I played back then, it's a brave new world for me.
Thanks again!

[Trickykid]

OK, this is what I've come up with so far:

Mana base (21)
4x Bayou
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Forest
6x Swamp
4x Wasteland
1x Mox Diamond

Disruption: (24)
3x Pernicious Deed
4x Go for the Throat
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
2x Abrupt Decay

Creatures: (11)
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Tombstalker
4x Nantuko Shade

Other: (4)
4x Dark Ritual
3x Grisly Salvage


To-do list:

Somehow make room for 1 more Grisly Salvage in order to make the Tombstalker more viable, and preferably 1-2 more Abrupt Decay. But how? About the Tombstalker/Grisly Salvage synergy, I'm worried that it won't work too well in practice, because of all the Deathrite Shamans out there. Also, in general I don't like to be too dependant on my graveyard in order to unless one of my main creature threats, so I'll need to test it a bit. If it doesn't work well, I'll at least free up 3 cards from the Salvages. The Tombstalkers are also pretty much making me not able to play Dark Confidants, who'd seem to be the perfect fit in thia deck.

I've seriously pondered Death's Shadow, but without Thoughtseize and more fetches, I don't think I can justify it. Speaking of fetches, that's on my to-get list at the moment, so I'll add a few of them, once I get the opportunity.

Other than that, I know I'm severely limiting myself in comparison to most Eva Green-like decks, by playing Shades instead of Tarmogoyfs. They're way too expensive for me at the moment though, so that's pretty much out of the question.

Liliana is another thing I should probably add, but again, I have zero experience with planewalkers, so I'll need to play against some before I make the final judgement there.

[tianyuan2k4]

To-do list:

Somehow make room for 1 more Grisly Salvage in order to make the Tombstalker more viable, and preferably 1-2 more Abrupt Decay. But how?

Perhaps add more fetchlands? And Deathrite Shaman? My Eva green runs a core like this:
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flat
2 Swamp

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Grisly Salvage
4 Abrupt Decay

20 Extra creatures / removals / discards

I was skeptic about Deathrite Shaman at first. Then in testing I realized Deathrite Shaman could use opposing fetchlands, wasted/sinkholed land as mana source for consistent 2nd turn craziness. It's a serious threat to graveyard based deck. Thus it draws removal so your stalkers and goyfs could do their jobs. Give it a shot.

Putrid Leech could be a goyf substitute, it works well with Death's Shadow. If you need more suicide spells to enable Death's Shadow, Snuff Out or Dismember are cheapest efficient removals in Legacy.



Liliana is another thing I should probably add, but again, I have zero experience with planewalkers, so I'll need to play against some before I make the final judgement there.

Liliana changes the direction of your deck. If you like Eva Green / Suicide aggressive style, Liliana is just too slow and definitely not for a "pretty straight forward deck that relies on fast land and hand disruption, followed by relatively cheap but solid creatures to seal the deal" deck.

[Trickykid]

Perhaps add more fetchlands? And Deathrite Shaman? My Eva green runs a core like this:
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flat
2 Swamp

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Grisly Salvage
4 Abrupt Decay

20 Extra creatures / removals / discards

I was skeptic about Deathrite Shaman at first. Then in testing I realized Deathrite Shaman could use opposing fetchlands, wasted/sinkholed land as mana source for consistent 2nd turn craziness. It's a serious threat to graveyard based deck. Thus it draws removal so your stalkers and goyfs could do their jobs. Give it a shot.

Putrid Leech could be a goyf substitute, it works well with Death's Shadow. If you need more suicide spells to enable Death's Shadow, Snuff Out or Dismember are cheapest efficient removals in Legacy.




Liliana changes the direction of your deck. If you like Eva Green / Suicide aggressive style, Liliana is just too slow and definitely not for a "pretty straight forward deck that relies on fast land and hand disruption, followed by relatively cheap but solid creatures to seal the deal" deck.

About the fetches, I actually believe I wrote them on my to-do list in my prior post. I'll add a few asap.

I have thought a lot about adding Deathrites too, but I feel, at least in theory, that it's too slow for my liking. I absolutely recognize it's utility and stable tab-dmg though, so if I can get my hands on a playset, I'll most definately give them a shot. Aren't they somehow countering the idea of the Tombstalker somewhat, and vice versa?

Also, I'm really relieved to hear your oppinion on Liliana. They seem to feature in a great deal of Eva's though, but at the moment I'd really prefer not to add them.

I think I'll pass on the Death's Shadow for now. It seems wasted against control, and I'd hate to rely on a creature, that's unusable against a host of decks. The Leeches seem like a good idea though, so I'll try them out if I end up going for the Death's Shadow after all.


Just a few questions:
1. How do you find the Tombstalker/Grisly Salvage synergy in the deck? Is it fast enough for the purpose, or do you often have too small a graveyard to make the Tombstalker playable?
2. About the Nantuko Shades. They used to be great back in the days, but apparently they're barely used anymore. To me they seem like a decent poor man's Tarmogoyf though. Am I completely wrong here?

Thanks again, folks.

[Asthereal]

Death's Shadow is very good against control. Against everything that can burn you, they become bad. You have a big Shadow, attack with it, and the counterattack, supported by a couple of Bolts, kills you. Control has trouble capitalizing on the fact that you voluntarily go low on life, so against control they really shine.
Oh and I forget Storm combo, that just goes 'You were on eight, right? Ritual, ritual, tutor, Tendrils.'

The deck you are trying to build is indeed some sort of Eva Green deck, but you seem to prefer the old build.
I'll post the old 'standard' list first, because I think it's probably best to start there, and then make some notes.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tombstalker /16

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out /20

3 Open slots /3

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3-4 Bayou
5-6 Swamp
4 Wasteland /21

Open slots were usually filled with Seal of Primordium or Umezawa's Jitte. Later they played Maelstrom Pulse there. I used to play 2x Duress and 1x Sylvan Library, because I thought that improved the mana curve, and the Library helps when you run out of gas.

The creatures:
You play Negators. They are bad. Please swap them for something better. Best choice by far is Tarmogoyf. Other options are the following (some already mentioned by you, me or others).
Hard hitters: Putrid Leech, Skinshifter, Nantuko Shade, Nyxathid.
Slow but utility creatures: Gatekeeper of Malakir, Vampire Nighthawk, Deathrite Shaman (which you don't like), Scavenging Ooze.

Spells:
Sinkholes are not that good in the current meta, but if you like them, feel free to keep them in the list.
Abrupt Decay is obviously very good, they deserve a spot in the list, so you should keep at least three of them.
Some here suggest Grisly Salvage. Don't play that card. It's slow, and it doesn't find you other spells.
Duress should obviously be Inquisition of Kozilek these days. That card is much more versatile.
Pernicious Deed is a control card. You want the deck to be fast and agressive, so you shouldn't play it. If you want it anyway, I suggest you switch decks and focus more on a 'Rock' style deck.

Maybe you could try something like this:
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Nantuko Shade
2 Skinshifter (in order to find out which of these two you like more)
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tombstalker /16

4 Dark Ritual
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sinkhole
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Snuff Out /23

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
4 Swamp
4 Wasteland /21

And then a sideboard perhaps a bit like so:
2 Duress
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Choke
1 Sylvan Library /15

[Trickykid]

Death's Shadow is very good against control. Against everything that can burn you, they become bad. You have a big Shadow, attack with it, and the counterattack, supported by a couple of Bolts, kills you. Control has trouble capitalizing on the fact that you voluntarily go low on life, so against control they really shine.
Oh and I forget Storm combo, that just goes 'You were on eight, right? Ritual, ritual, tutor, Tendrils.'

The deck you are trying to build is indeed some sort of Eva Green deck, but you seem to prefer the old build.
I'll post the old 'standard' list first, because I think it's probably best to start there, and then make some notes.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tombstalker /16

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out /20

3 Open slots /3

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3-4 Bayou
5-6 Swamp
4 Wasteland /21

Open slots were usually filled with Seal of Primordium or Umezawa's Jitte. Later they played Maelstrom Pulse there. I used to play 2x Duress and 1x Sylvan Library, because I thought that improved the mana curve, and the Library helps when you run out of gas.

The creatures:
You play Negators. They are bad. Please swap them for something better. Best choice by far is Tarmogoyf. Other options are the following (some already mentioned by you, me or others).
Hard hitters: Putrid Leech, Skinshifter, Nantuko Shade, Nyxathid.
Slow but utility creatures: Gatekeeper of Malakir, Vampire Nighthawk, Deathrite Shaman (which you don't like), Scavenging Ooze.

Spells:
Sinkholes are not that good in the current meta, but if you like them, feel free to keep them in the list.
Abrupt Decay is obviously very good, they deserve a spot in the list, so you should keep at least three of them.
Some here suggest Grisly Salvage. Don't play that card. It's slow, and it doesn't find you other spells.
Duress should obviously be Inquisition of Kozilek these days. That card is much more versatile.
Pernicious Deed is a control card. You want the deck to be fast and agressive, so you shouldn't play it. If you want it anyway, I suggest you switch decks and focus more on a 'Rock' style deck.

Maybe you could try something like this:
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Nantuko Shade
2 Skinshifter (in order to find out which of these two you like more)
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tombstalker /16

4 Dark Ritual
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sinkhole
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Snuff Out /23

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
4 Swamp
4 Wasteland /21

And then a sideboard perhaps a bit like so:
2 Duress
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Choke
1 Sylvan Library /15

I really appreciate your thorough reply, but you seem to have missed a couple of my points and corrections along the way in the topic. I'll make sure to post the revised build in the top post from now on.

About the Death's Shadows. I see what you're saying, but aren't they sitting around in your hand for ages, while a control/combo deck doesn't do much dmg to you? It's mainly a problem for my deck of course, as I don't play Thoughseizes, and only four fetches at the moment, so I don't have that many self harming spells.

At the moment, I can't really get my hands on either Tarmogoyfs (or Thoughtseizes for that matter), that's why I was looking for another creature base (don't worry, I ditched the Negators pretty early on) - hence the Tombstalker/Grisly Salvage synergy. It seems you think that Grisly Salvage's only in there to fetch creatures, but the main reason for me to want them in the deck, if for crowing the GY quickly.
Regarding the creatures, I actually had a question about Nantuko Shades, whom I see you proposed using, in my post prior to this one. I take it you'll vouch for them then?

I've browsed a lot of different Eva Greens, and a lot of them does seem to include Pernicious Deed - at least in the SB, so I'm not quite sure why you would get rid of them completely? I was actually just now thinking of perhaps swapping them for Maelstrom Pulse instead, as I didn't know that PD doesn't affect Planeswalkers. I mainly included the PDs in order to fend off tokens, and MP should do that nearly as effecively.

All in all, there seem to be two different schools of Eva Green, as far as I've understood over the last few days. The extremely agreessive one, and the slightly less agressive one with a bit more focus on control. With Deeds and Tombstalker/Grisly Salvage, I suppose my deck would end up in the rather slow end of the spectrum.

[tianyuan2k4]

I have thought a lot about adding Deathrites too, but I feel, at least in theory, that it's too slow for my liking. I absolutely recognize it's utility and stable tab-dmg though, so if I can get my hands on a playset, I'll most definately give them a shot. Aren't they somehow countering the idea of the Tombstalker somewhat, and vice versa?
Your Deathrite could use lands in opp's yard to add mana or do damage. So cards in your yard could fuel Tombstalker.



1. How do you find the Tombstalker/Grisly Salvage synergy in the deck? Is it fast enough for the purpose, or do you often have too small a graveyard to make the Tombstalker playable?Since I added Deathrite and Grisly Salvage to the deck, I rarely have problem with casting double Tombstalkers: This deck doesn't have problem to cast the first Tombstalker, Grisly Salvage now enable you to find and cast the second one.



2. About the Nantuko Shades. They used to be great back in the days, but apparently they're barely used anymore. To me they seem like a decent poor man's Tarmogoyf though. Am I completely wrong here?Yup, shady is not good in multiples and has no evasions and protection. Running a couple is fine.



Some here suggest Grisly Salvage. Don't play that card. It's slow, and it doesn't find you other spells.That's my initial thought too. After testing by adding two in my deck, I add more from 2 to 3 to 4. The key reasons for running this card:
1) B/G lacks good beaters. Goyf, Tombstalker are great but the rest are not on par with those two. Instead of running more sub optimal ones, Grisly Salvage digs for the best beaters.
2) Tombstalker / Deathrite Shaman / Goyf + Grisly Salvage = Lotta Synergy
3) It looks for lands: it smooths your mana base when needed and act as psudo-sinkhole if you digged a wasteland.


At the moment, I can't really get my hands on either Tarmogoyfs (or Thoughtseizes for that matter)Me too. Hopefully I could get them in Modern Masters (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/218).

[Asthereal]

The original Eva Green was a suicide black deck with a splash of green for Tarmogoyf (and some additional sideboard options). The fact that Dark Ritual is chosen tells me we're on the agressive here. If one were to play controllish, Dark Ritual would just be card disadvantage.

I indeed missed the fact that you had no chance to obtain Tarmogoyf or Thoughtseize yet. I wouldn't play a deck like this without either of them. But that's my opinion. If you have nothing else just yet, it sure is a good way to get into Legacy. Good thing is that the alternatives for Goyfs and Seizes are cheap. Inquisitions, Shades, Skinshifters and Leeches all cost around 1$ per card, so they won't bite your wallet too much.

I cannot say that I fully vouche for Nantuko Shade. They were played in the past, as a four-of actually. They can win Goyf wars and finish the game in only very few turns. But... they die to almost every removal, which makes them a lot weaker than Goyf. Same counts for the Skinshifters. The Leeches are more stable. If you play enough discard, a couple of Nyxathids can be playable, but they also aren't that stable.

Death's Shadow is a card you should only play if you tune the whole deck around it. 10+ fetch, Snuff Outs, Sylvan Libraries, Thoughtseizes, Putrid Leeches. I would strongly advise against Shadow. I was only saying what I said because I felt you were maybe misunderstanding the strength of the card. Shadow can be good, especially against control, but it fails against almost everything else.

[Trickykid]

Your Deathrite could use lands in opp's yard to add mana or do damage. So cards in your yard could fuel Tombstalker.


Ah, of course.



Since I added Deathrite and Grisly Salvage to the deck, I rarely have problem with casting double Tombstalkers: This deck doesn't have problem to cast the first Tombstalker, Grisly Salvage now enable you to find and cast the second one.


Sounds good. I really like the idea of the synergy between the two, and can't wait to test it.



Yup, shady is not good in multiples and has no evasions and protection. Running a couple is fine.


I think I'll go with two for starters.

And thanks again for your input.

[Trickykid]

The original Eva Green was a suicide black deck with a splash of green for Tarmogoyf (and some additional sideboard options). The fact that Dark Ritual is chosen tells me we're on the agressive here. If one were to play controllish, Dark Ritual would just be card disadvantage.

I indeed missed the fact that you had no chance to obtain Tarmogoyf or Thoughtseize yet. I wouldn't play a deck like this without either of them. But that's my opinion. If you have nothing else just yet, it sure is a good way to get into Legacy. Good thing is that the alternatives for Goyfs and Seizes are cheap. Inquisitions, Shades, Skinshifters and Leeches all cost around 1$ per card, so they won't bite your wallet too much.

I cannot say that I fully vouche for Nantuko Shade. They were played in the past, as a four-of actually. They can win Goyf wars and finish the game in only very few turns. But... they die to almost every removal, which makes them a lot weaker than Goyf. Same counts for the Skinshifters. The Leeches are more stable. If you play enough discard, a couple of Nyxathids can be playable, but they also aren't that stable.

Death's Shadow is a card you should only play if you tune the whole deck around it. 10+ fetch, Snuff Outs, Sylvan Libraries, Thoughtseizes, Putrid Leeches. I would strongly advise against Shadow. I was only saying what I said because I felt you were maybe misunderstanding the strength of the card. Shadow can be good, especially against control, but it fails against almost everything else.

Over the last few days, I've done some theory crafting, thinking about that you said here.
Perhaps I am indeed going for a too controlish build, and perhaps I do need to let go of my Rituals all together, if I want the whole thing to make sense. Perhaps by going a bit slower, I won't miss the ridiculous beatdown of the Goyfs that much either, and can better afford to look for cheaper alternatives. About the cheaper options, I'm still a bit at a loss as to which exactly I should choose, so I'll probably have to test the various options along the way.

I've edited my initial post with the revised build, if you'd bother taking yet another look.

Thanks in any case!

[Asthereal]

Testing to find out what style you prefer is a very good idea. Mainly because that will help your card choices for the final list you decide on. Let me show you the most important cards in this case. I'll name two for each style.

If you love the quick agressive game, you will want to keep Dark Ritual and Sinkhole. What these cards do, is put you in the lead of board development. Dark Ritual allows you to disrupt and play threats quicker than your opponent. This will make it hard for your opponent to keep up, answer your threats, and putting a threat of his own on the board. Sinkhole also slows your opponent down, making it hard for him to recover from your onslaught, because it takes him three turns extra to find the fourth land for his Jace or Verdict, or whatever mana-intensive Snapcaster play he had in mind.
The other side of the medallion is when your opponent starts the game with land into Sensei's Divining Top, and you respond with land, Dark Ritual, Sinkhole that land, Inquisition his Swords to Plowshares. Bang, nice turn sir! If you now fail to drop a threat and disrupt the opponent further, he can easily recover by playing a land, Topping into more land and answers, and eventually dropping his own threat. So if you are on the offensive, you must tune your deck to stay on the offensive. You invest a card in accelleration and will therefor lose if the game comes down to who has the most cards. Your speed and disruption will make sure that the opponent cannot do much for several turns, but you must be sure to kill him in those several turns.
Hence, my reference to the old style Eva Green: Rituals, disruption, 16 bad ass creatures for the quick kill.

If you decide on the more controllish build, you will want to drop the Dark Rituals and Sinkholes, for reasons already mentioned. We are now switching to answering the opposing threats, and winning because we have more card advantage. We answer the cards that matter, preferably using one card to destroy several (Pernicious Deed, Planeswalkers). But the downside is that we must now always have an answer when the opponent has a threat. Otherwise we are likely to die from that threat. So we need to add cards like Sensei's Divining Top to make sure we draw what we need when we need it. Destroying one land has become irrelevant, since we aim on winning on turn 15 or so, when the opponent will already have drawn four replacement lands. In this strategy we can make better use of more removal for actual threats of the opponent (creatures, planeswalkers).
The more controllish deck will look similar to a Junk/The Rock-deck.

In a more controllish style deck, I would look for a build somewhat like this:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Vampire Nighthawk / Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Tombstalker /12

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Darkblast
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk Relentless /26

4 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold /22

[Trickykid]

Testing to find out what style you prefer is a very good idea. Mainly because that will help your card choices for the final list you decide on. Let me show you the most important cards in this case. I'll name two for each style.

If you love the quick agressive game, you will want to keep Dark Ritual and Sinkhole. What these cards do, is put you in the lead of board development. Dark Ritual allows you to disrupt and play threats quicker than your opponent. This will make it hard for your opponent to keep up, answer your threats, and putting a threat of his own on the board. Sinkhole also slows your opponent down, making it hard for him to recover from your onslaught, because it takes him three turns extra to find the fourth land for his Jace or Verdict, or whatever mana-intensive Snapcaster play he had in mind.
The other side of the medallion is when your opponent starts the game with land into Sensei's Divining Top, and you respond with land, Dark Ritual, Sinkhole that land, Inquisition his Swords to Plowshares. Bang, nice turn sir! If you now fail to drop a threat and disrupt the opponent further, he can easily recover by playing a land, Topping into more land and answers, and eventually dropping his own threat. So if you are on the offensive, you must tune your deck to stay on the offensive. You invest a card in accelleration and will therefor lose if the game comes down to who has the most cards. Your speed and disruption will make sure that the opponent cannot do much for several turns, but you must be sure to kill him in those several turns.
Hence, my reference to the old style Eva Green: Rituals, disruption, 16 bad ass creatures for the quick kill.

If you decide on the more controllish build, you will want to drop the Dark Rituals and Sinkholes, for reasons already mentioned. We are now switching to answering the opposing threats, and winning because we have more card advantage. We answer the cards that matter, preferably using one card to destroy several (Pernicious Deed, Planeswalkers). But the downside is that we must now always have an answer when the opponent has a threat. Otherwise we are likely to die from that threat. So we need to add cards like Sensei's Divining Top to make sure we draw what we need when we need it. Destroying one land has become irrelevant, since we aim on winning on turn 15 or so, when the opponent will already have drawn four replacement lands. In this strategy we can make better use of more removal for actual threats of the opponent (creatures, planeswalkers).
The more controllish deck will look similar to a Junk/The Rock-deck.

In a more controllish style deck, I would look for a build somewhat like this:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Vampire Nighthawk / Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Tombstalker /12

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Darkblast
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk Relentless /26

4 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold /22

I hear you, and I appreciate your write-up on the different styles, but are things necessarily that black and white?
I mean, can't you somehow combine the two styles and still be somewhat succesful? I guess it's a moot question really, as it all depends on the meta-game and quality of the opponents, but looking at the various decks on http://www.thecouncil.es, it seems like there are a whole lot of varying builds under each sub-genre, each lending something and inevatably overlapping eachother and other deck styles.

Take http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5349&iddeck=38689 for example. This one has both got Deeds, Divining Top, and relatively few creatures which makes it look like a control'ish deck, and yet it also runs Sinkholes and Rituals. A lot of the decks listed here are contradictory like that, which leads me to believe that you can in fact mix the styles, and still be competetive (at least that's what I want to believe).

Anyhow, as you also recommended, I will take my deck to the test, and make sure to play a lot of different variations, and see if I can settle on something remotely useful sometime in the not so distant future - be it control, pure suicide or a combination of the two.

Oh, just one more thing. I don't know if you can answer it, or someone else can perhaps. I see so many various decktypes run Wasteland nowadays. Is it just because it's simply too good not to run, or has it got something to do with the current day metagame? Very strict and compressed mana bases, and perhaps a crapload of non-basic lands being the norm? Back when I used to play, it was only used by very certain archtypes, and had very specific assigniments, but I suppose that's just how the game has evolved.

[tianyuan2k4]

Oh, just one more thing. I don't know if you can answer it, or someone else can perhaps. I see so many various decktypes run Wasteland nowadays. Is it just because it's simply too good not to run, or has it got something to do with the current day metagame? You are right, current meta is infest with "a crapload of non-basic lands".

I suggest you to look at mtgtop8's Legacy decks (http://mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE). Most top 8 / competitive decks have plenty non basics for your wasteland to hit with.

[mini1337s]

I mean, can't you somehow combine the two styles and still be somewhat succesful? I guess it's a moot question really, as it all depends on the meta-game and quality of the opponents, but looking at the various decks on http://www.thecouncil.es, it seems like there are a whole lot of varying builds under each sub-genre, each lending something and inevatably overlapping eachother and other deck styles.

Take http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5349&iddeck=38689 for example. This one has both got Deeds, Divining Top, and relatively few creatures which makes it look like a control'ish deck, and yet it also runs Sinkholes and Rituals. A lot of the decks listed here are contradictory like that, which leads me to believe that you can in fact mix the styles, and still be competetive (at least that's what I want to believe).

Keep in mind that deck placed 1st in a group of 36 people over 2 years ago.

Basically, if you take elements of both, you will end up with a mediocre blend of each strategy. Sometimes it will all come together, but sometimes it won't. You are better off committing to a cohesive strategy, and deciding if you want to have a strong early or late game, as opposed to a lackluster blend of both.

[Trickykid]

Keep in mind that deck placed 1st in a group of 36 people over 2 years ago.

Basically, if you take elements of both, you will end up with a mediocre blend of each strategy. Sometimes it will all come together, but sometimes it won't. You are better off committing to a cohesive strategy, and deciding if you want to have a strong early or late game, as opposed to a lackluster blend of both.

Doh, I just took the second deck on the list, assuming it was rather new. My bad.
Point taken in any case.

[Asthereal]

Things are not necessarily that black and white, no, but it does help to keep in mind some cards have a certain purpose and a certain risk to them. Seinsei's Divining Top is very slow, so if you combine fast cards with slow cards, you are bound to run into situations where you play into a brilliant tempo boost, and then suddenly don't do anything relevant for two turns, allowing your opponent to recover.

Other example in currently popular decks:
Blade Control is well equipped to handle a big Knight of the Reliquary. It can Swords to Plowshares the thing, Snapcaster-flashback Swords, Supreme Verdict, Jace bounce and counter it. Blade Control takes the defensive role and at some (later) stage uses Batterskull or Jace to wil the game.
Canadian Threshold would have serious issues dealing with a big Knight of the Reliquary. Canadian Thresh has the plan to land an early Delver of Secrets and in the mean time attack the mana base, preventing the Knight from landing. The idea of Canadian Thresh is that it reaches a certain lead in board presence that cannot be reversed anymore, sealing the deal within ten turns.

Both these decks play blue responsive cards, but Thresh plays Stifle, Wasteland and Daze, fast cards that disrupt quickly and work well early game, where Blade Control plays cards with more power, but that are slower (Jace, Stoneforge Mystic + equipment, Snapcaster Mage). It's dangerous to mix up the specific cards and put them into decks that don't utilize the strategy that they complement well. Blade Control is pretty slow, so playing around Daze would be easy for the opponent. Just invest another turn to make that extra landdrop. Against Canadian Thresh you may not have the time to make that extra landdrop because a Delver is kicking your but, and a Tarmogoyf might soon join the party, while your board is still empty.

So it's a matter of playing style. If you want to be the agressor, quick cards, fast disruption and hard hitting creatures are usually your way to go. If you prefer to sit back and respond to what your opponent is doing, and after eight turns or so land a hugh bomb, you should focus your list more on the The Rock lists out there.

Pernicious Deed is the easiest example. It's a defensive, controllish card. If you want to be the agressor, you will disrupt early, play a creature and attack with it. If your opponent then lands a creature too, you will want to destroy it quickly, so you can continue the attack. Deed will be a terrible card to draw now, since it will likely destroy both your and the opposing creature, leaving you with nothing. On top of that, Deed costs a lot of mana to use. Here you want Snuff Out instead. It kills the opposing creature for no mana at all, allowing you to land a second creature, or Sinkhole the land your opponent just played. That will get you ever further ahead in development, making it almost impossible for the opponent to recover.

[Trickykid]

Things are not necessarily that black and white, no, but it does help to keep in mind some cards have a certain purpose and a certain risk to them. Seinsei's Divining Top is very slow, so if you combine fast cards with slow cards, you are bound to run into situations where you play into a brilliant tempo boost, and then suddenly don't do anything relevant for two turns, allowing your opponent to recover.

Other example in currently popular decks:
Blade Control is well equipped to handle a big Knight of the Reliquary. It can Swords to Plowshares the thing, Snapcaster-flashback Swords, Supreme Verdict, Jace bounce and counter it. Blade Control takes the defensive role and at some (later) stage uses Batterskull or Jace to wil the game.
Canadian Threshold would have serious issues dealing with a big Knight of the Reliquary. Canadian Thresh has the plan to land an early Delver of Secrets and in the mean time attack the mana base, preventing the Knight from landing. The idea of Canadian Thresh is that it reaches a certain lead in board presence that cannot be reversed anymore, sealing the deal within ten turns.

Both these decks play blue responsive cards, but Thresh plays Stifle, Wasteland and Daze, fast cards that disrupt quickly and work well early game, where Blade Control plays cards with more power, but that are slower (Jace, Stoneforge Mystic + equipment, Snapcaster Mage). It's dangerous to mix up the specific cards and put them into decks that don't utilize the strategy that they complement well. Blade Control is pretty slow, so playing around Daze would be easy for the opponent. Just invest another turn to make that extra landdrop. Against Canadian Thresh you may not have the time to make that extra landdrop because a Delver is kicking your but, and a Tarmogoyf might soon join the party, while your board is still empty.

So it's a matter of playing style. If you want to be the agressor, quick cards, fast disruption and hard hitting creatures are usually your way to go. If you prefer to sit back and respond to what your opponent is doing, and after eight turns or so land a hugh bomb, you should focus your list more on the The Rock lists out there.

Pernicious Deed is the easiest example. It's a defensive, controllish card. If you want to be the agressor, you will disrupt early, play a creature and attack with it. If your opponent then lands a creature too, you will want to destroy it quickly, so you can continue the attack. Deed will be a terrible card to draw now, since it will likely destroy both your and the opposing creature, leaving you with nothing. On top of that, Deed costs a lot of mana to use. Here you want Snuff Out instead. It kills the opposing creature for no mana at all, allowing you to land a second creature, or Sinkhole the land your opponent just played. That will get you ever further ahead in development, making it almost impossible for the opponent to recover.

Valid points, I hear you.
I believe I'll go for a more The Rock'ish deck focusing more on control. As you may have noticed, I have a real hard time letting go of my Sinkholes, as they've done so much good for me in the past, but it looks like that's the way to go for now.
Once I get the remaining cards needed, I'll start play testing, and try to settle on a stable build.

I'll let you know how the deck is evolving and how it's doing.
Thanks again for taking time to give advice.