[SCD] Domri Rade

[bruizar]

So, it's been a while since this card was spoiled now, and I've had time to think about it. At first, I didn't like the card but I've come back from this conclusion.
The +1 ability is good in Jund or Goblins. In Jund, you can stack your deck with Sylvan Library (Running multiple libraries is okay, because you can just shuffle them away or stack them on the bottom 3). Bloodbraid Elf can cascade into Domri Rade, fight a defender such as Stoneforge Mystic and attack Jace immediately. Needless to say, the Emblem is really good, but 7 loyalty is a lot to ask. Liliana ultimates at 6 and her +1 disrupts the opponent. The +1 on Domri Rade provides you with extra creatures, thus pressure, so the game will probably be over before you can pull off the ultimate of Domri Rade. I think Sylvan Library, Domri Rade, Dark Confidant and Bloodbraid Elf make a really nice core. Tarmogoyf + fight should be able to take out most creatures in legacy that aren't cheated into play. The +1 combines with Fetch to act as a Fateseal on yourself if you don't have a Sylvan Library, since you can shuffle away the top card if it is not a creature. The -2 requires a board position but at least it is targeted removal where liliana provides an edict effect, leaving the choice to your opponent. Perhaps a split could work in Jund, so that you can have a board with 2 planeswalkers at the same time. Liliana is much better against the entire field though, as she can disrupt control and combo with her +1 as well as act as creature removal in aggro matchups. Still, I think there is a place for Domri Rade in legacy.

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAG_GTC/DomriRade.jpghttp://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAGLEG/sylvan_library.jpghttp://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAGRAV/dark_confidant.jpghttp://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAGALARA_REBORN/BloodbraidElf.jpg

For Goblins, Domri Rade might be able to draw a bunch of cards blind and defend itself with a bunch of Goblin tokens due to the decks high density of creatures. I'm not a goblins expert, so reducing the amount of goblins with Domri Rade might actually have a detrimental effect both to Goblin Ringleader and Domri Rade itself. Perhaps more experienced Goblin player can chime in with their opinion.


http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAG_GTC/DomriRade.jpghttp://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAGCONFLUX/knight_of_the_reliquary.jpghttp://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAGTIM/arena.jpghttp://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAGLEG/sylvan_library.jpghttp://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAGALARA_REBORN/BloodbraidElf.jpg

In a RGW version, you can play Knight of the Reliquary and Arena and consistently remove Deathrite Shaman with your fights so that Knight of the Reliquary is restored to its former glory. Cascade into Knight of the Reliquary is obviously a very big play. The ruling of Arena is such that you can use it on tapped creatures too. This means you can activate Knight of the Reliquary, float mana, grab arena and fight in the same turn.

"10/4/2004 Either or both creatures can be tapped prior to using the ability and it still works"


What do you guys think?

[Vacrix]

What do you guys think?
Ach! Hans, Run!



No seriously.. its not playable. It hardly protects itself without a creature, costs 3 for something that doesn't change the game state that drastically until you get an ultimate which is still dependent on the board state instead of a straight up win.

Considering all the other cards you mentioned, think of it as a bad version of Sylvan Library that costs an additional red for some basically irrelevant abilities.

[dsck]

Where do you get the time to use Arena? 3 mana + Arena itself is same amount of mana as Jace the Mind Sculptor.

[bruizar]

Where do you get the time to use Arena? 3 mana + Arena itself is same amount of mana as Jace the Mind Sculptor.

Turn 1
Land, deathrite shaman

Turn 2
Land, knight of the reliquary

Turn 3
Land, float 3 mana, activate knight, get arena, activate arena with 1 mana from deathrite shaman left

[bruizar]

Ach! Hans, Run!



No seriously.. its not playable. It hardly protects itself without a creature, costs 3 for something that doesn't change the game state that drastically until you get an ultimate which is still dependent on the board state instead of a straight up win.

Considering all the other cards you mentioned, think of it as a bad version of Sylvan Library that costs an additional red for some basically irrelevant abilities.

Is this really a fair comparison? Domri rade can remove creatures. You arent going to run him in a creature light deck, so fight shouldnt be hard to pull off. A sylvan library/dark confidant that can also remove creatures and doesnt cost extra life for card advantage sounds like a good deal to me. Especially after using up your discard and both players are in topdeck mode.

[Hof]

For Goblins, Domri Rade might be able to draw a bunch of cards blind and defend itself with a bunch of Goblin tokens due to the decks high density of creatures. I'm not a goblins expert, so reducing the amount of goblins with Domri Rade might actually have a detrimental effect both to Goblin Ringleader and Domri Rade itself. Perhaps more experienced Goblin player can chime in with their opinion.
The middle ability made me think of Mogg Maniac.

But at three mana and not being a Goblin, it is probably much worse than Descendants' Path which doesn't see any play in Goblins.

[Barook]

As for Jund, Domri Rade also combines rather nicely with Volrath's Stronghold.

[Finn]

I think Domri Rade has excellent potential. I recall quite a few people on this site bashing it, essentially because it is not Jace. They are wrong.

An awful lot if people got Shaman wrong too. You can't always compare like that.

[catmint]

Not sure about jund due to creature count. The more creatures the better obviously...

I can imagine it beeing playable. Maverick has troubles with miracles. Their plan to fight miracles so far involves Teeg (+mother) or 4cmc walkers (which are antisynergistic with teeg). Now it is hard for miracles to get rid of Domri, so the ultimate at a gamestate where it matters is not unreasonable. Once ultimated maverick is favourite imo. Also in the mirror he looks incredibly strong since he can't be removed easily, the -2 is very good (remember they also play ulvenwald tracker) and the ultimate looks like an autowin. The +1 is worth ~0,45 cards so in grindy matchups against decks where he is likely to stick around I can see him beeing a potent addition to Maverick. Also "punishing" maverick has red which is a strong sideboard color against miracles as well.

Of course I am not an expert in this archetype so experts opinions are welcome. :smile:

[bruizar]

Domri rade actually goes well in conjunctuon with miracles because the +1 doesnt mess with miracle triggers.

[rufus]

I don't think Domri Rade is going to be playable. How often will you prefer to have Domdi Rade over, say, Umezawa's Jitte or a Sword of Fire and Ice?

[DragoFireheart]

Domri will likely find a home in Modern Jund.

[kiblast]

I don't think Domri Rade is going to be playable. How often will you prefer to have Domdi Rade over, say, Umezawa's Jitte or a Sword of Fire and Ice?

Every time they wipe your board with a Damnation, Pernicious Deed, Terminus or Verdict ?
I like this Planeswalker. It's an example of cool desing bringing something (card advantage engine) that normally it's not something you would expect from RG combination ( except Library, BBE, Fauna Shaman + Squee and very few other playable cards).

I'm not that experienced with Goblins, but I played the deck enough times to ensure that you don't want to dilute Goblins with anything that's not 3x Thalia MD or MD Relic of Progenitus. But I could see it being played by some midrange creature heavy RGW list which also plays Sensei's Divining Top and/or Library. His second ability can break stalls and his ultimate simply resolves stalls.

Very nice call on Volrath's Stronghold, although I think Jund has better spells to play ( Abrupt Decay, Tourach, Thoughtseize) which are non creature and therefore diluting Domri's power. Again, some kind of Big Zoo list could abuse him.

Edit: Ah well yeah, he will probably be played in Modern. Not that I care about it, was just worth noticing.

[bruizar]

Domri rade does 3 unique things that matter:

1) 3 CC
2) creature removal
3) assymmetric card advantage


Liliana only provides CA when you are hellbent.
Tezzeret AoB provides CA and beaters but not creature removal
Jace provides CA and temporary creature removal but is 4 CC and UU.
Domri provides creature removal and CA at the low cost of 3

Like Tezzeret AoB, Domri's power level is high but it requires committing to creatures instead of Tezzeret.

[TsumiBand]

Every time I look at this guy I have a different opinion of what its actual impact will be. I'm inclined to think that this guy achieves Max Value status by running some kind of mid-range RG beater deck; his second ability lets you capitalize on having fat on the battlefield by using it as removal in addition to swinging for combat damage. It's a play on a beatdown deck's redundancy - "guys and burn" works because everything is a Lightning Bolt, it just matters how often that Lightning Bolt is able to hit.

Where it starts failing though is that in order to really get mileage from that +1 ability, you'll need to be manipulating the top of your deck. SDT and Sylvan Library are cool, but after that the bottom kind of drops out. Magma Jet maybe works in conjunction with these effects, but the minute you put those tools into RG Beats you're just adding 12 un-redundant cards to a deck that tries to get there b/c so many things function towards the same end. He'll get played, but only for a little while until people start saying, "Hey for one mana more I could just play Harmonize, and I don't play that card anyway, so..."

[zulander]

It's a draw engine, and not a particularly good one. The tertiary abilities aren't good enough to warrant its enclusion in the decks that would want it. Sylvan Library 3 and 4 are better than Domri 1 and 2.

[Greenpoe]

Countryside Crusher + Domri Rade = good synergy. Filter lands off the top so you'll have a better chance to flip a creature.

EDIT: Wait, nevermind, you'd just draw the creature.

[Barook]

I don't think Domri Rade is going to be playable. How often will you prefer to have Domdi Rade over, say, Umezawa's Jitte or a Sword of Fire and Ice?
E.g. when your opponent has an active Liliana in play or after mass removal, as kiblast already said.


Liliana only provides CA when you are hellbent.
Liliana already provides CA with her edict effect. Getting CA via hellbent is just an added bonus that makes her so powerful. I like the comparison with Tezzeret as a narrow Planeswalker, though.


Sylvan Library 3 and 4 are better than Domri 1 and 2.
Except Library 2,3 and 4 are pretty much dead draws once Library 1 hits the table, while Domri provides a pretty good engine along with it.

I would still wait for further Gruul cards before completely rating the card. Maybe there are some bombs that make Domri really good, although I doubt that.

[bruizar]

Liliana already provides CA with her edict effect. Getting CA via hellbent is just an added bonus that makes her so powerful. I like the comparison with Tezzeret as a narrow Planeswalker, though.

Oh right, that's true. Overlooked that as I focused on the +1 only.


Except Library 2,3 and 4 are pretty much dead draws once Library 1 hits the table, while Domri provides a pretty good engine along with it.

This is exactly why I think it's great alongside Liliana. If you have 3 Lili 2 Domri you can have a nice board state with 2 walkers instead of sitting in your hand with a liliana that you cant cast and dont really want to discard.

[lordofthepit]

You're going to need to very reliably get use out of the +1 ability to make this playable. I see that as very unlikely for the foreseeable future since there's no GRx shell that can afford to run 20-30 creatures in the current meta.

The fight ability is useful, but if you're in red, removal isn't generally an issue. Unlike other planeswalkers, this is not very good against control unless you can maintain a continuous stream of creatures. Good luck to everyone breaking this, would be neat.

[trivial_matters]

As already mentioned, you need Top or Library in order to use the +1 ability reliably. But do you want to play Top in a probably aggressive RGx deck? It's a bit of a mana sink if your goal is to rush out creatures.

Library is better in that regard and already sees play in decks like Jund (also Zoo before everyone stopped playing it).

[lyracian]

He is one mana cheaper but I struggle to see why I would want him rather than Garruk Relentless?
Conditional card draw vs generating tokens and his ultimate, while giving a better bonus, is a lot slower to activate.
That only leaves his fight ability which requires you to have another creature. Unlike Garruk it can be used again but seems very slow.

[Vacrix]

Is this really a fair comparison? Domri Rade can remove creatures. You arent going to run him in a creature light deck, so fight shouldnt be hard to pull off. A sylvan library/dark confidant that can also remove creatures and doesnt cost extra life for card advantage sounds like a good deal to me. Especially after using up your discard and both players are in topdeck mode.

Its not that its a bad card. Its all about the opportunity cost. What do you give up to play this guy? Dark Confidant can remove creatures as well. So can Sylvan Library and Sensei's Divining Top. How? They provide library manipulation and/or CA so that you can find the cards you need to deal with creatures. Its 3 mana.. it doesn't have nearly as much board presence as you want it to have, and frankly its -2 is terrible because it makes creatures fight. You'd have to optimize the deck in such a way that you are not just trading with your opponents creatures or else you are just trading one for one on card advantage. The problem here is that if your creatures are bigger, then you outsize the opponents creatures, so you're already ahead. If your creatures are smaller or even, then you are at best trading one for one, or unable to actually turn his -2 into removal. Compare his -2 to Liliana's -2.. Lili will almost surely kill a creature. But Lili is actually relevant against combo decks like SnT and Reanimator. Domri is completely useless in that matchup. He only has a good application IMO against Lord based aggro where you can pick off Lords with the -2. Even then, you're going to want to be able to beat decks like Goblins and Merfolk or else why are you in RG playing heavy creatures to interact with Domri Rade?

The fact that he creates card advantage is awesome, but he's slow. What kind of deck would play him and also play heavy creatures? RG Beatdown? Well, how does that compare to Zoo's niche in the metagame? How does it compare to Goblins? You can't just look at the card in a vacuum. The build you play and niche in the metagame are just as important. What will this deck do that others don't already? This question is ESPECIALLY important if you want to build around Domri Rade. I don't see a reason to. Goblins gets mad card advantage if it wants it. Zoo is a powerhouse that will just burn your creature on the spot if you try to -2 to kill something. If you're playing a midrange sort of build, it doesn't make too much sense to get creature heavy.. and BUG already plays midrange much better with Deathrite Shaman. Say you go into RGb for Shaman and some other guys, perhaps even Dark Confidant.. and even some discard so you have some semblance of disruption.. Perhaps that could work. Still.. I don't see Domri Rade giving you greater board presence than Sylvan Library would. Library is harder to remove, can potentially draw you an extra card or two in clutch situations, interacts with fetchlands to create card quality, something Domri Rade cannot.

Further, the -7 is purely win more. If Domri Rade actually does what its supposed to do with its +1 for long enough, then you should be getting enough card advantage with creatures to steam roll an opponent before -7 is even relevant. If the +1 doesn't do what its supposed to do, then do you have enough creatures for the -7 to even be relevant by the time its online? If its even still alive because you didn't have to use the -2?

I'd say it would be playable if the first ability were +2, and the second -1. Otherwise, its not Legacy material IMO.

[bruizar]

Liliana and Domri Rade are not as comparable as you think. In the case of Liliana, if I +1 hands to 0, I still get to top deck and cast a card which means the +1 actually does nothing. Lingering Souls counters Liliana pretty hard (or any planeswalker for that matter).The +1 does not always guarantee card advantage. A top decked Jace or Entreat the Angels also beat Liliana's +1 and -2 pretty well. That doesn't mean the +1 is bad, it just means that, like Domri Rade, the +1 doesn't always provide C/A or disruption.

Domri Rade draws a creature every turn provided you run enough Sylvan Library/SDT's/Mirri's Guile effects and enough creatures to support him. That's better in a lot of situations (not all situations, particularly against combo lili is better). Being able to draw into Bloodbraid Elves and Tarmogoyfs is good because you establish a board presence more quickly. You should not forget that Sylvan Library costs 4 life, and Dark Confidant also costs a lot of life unless you are setting up your library. Domri Rade never costs any life. Also, even if you one-for-one with Domri Rade, his +1 should draw you into a replacement threat so you should come out ahead. I wouldn't advocate running 4 Domri Rades, but I can see 2 of them making there way into a list with tops and confidants. I can see a 'fight club' type of deck in legacy. An aggro control deck that beats every other aggro matchup.

[FieryBalrog]

Liliana and Domri Rade are not as comparable as you think. In the case of Liliana, if I +1 hands to 0, I still get to top deck and cast a card which means the +1 actually does nothing. Lingering Souls counters Liliana pretty hard (or any planeswalker for that matter).The +1 does not always guarantee card advantage. A top decked Jace or Entreat the Angels also beat Liliana's +1 and -2 pretty well. That doesn't mean the +1 is bad, it just means that, like Domri Rade, the +1 doesn't always provide C/A or disruption.

Domri Rade draws a creature every turn provided you run enough Sylvan Library/SDT's/Mirri's Guile effects and enough creatures to support him. That's better in a lot of situations (not all situations, particularly against combo lili is better). Being able to draw into Bloodbraid Elves and Tarmogoyfs is good because you establish a board presence more quickly. You should not forget that Sylvan Library costs 4 life, and Dark Confidant also costs a lot of life unless you are setting up your library. Domri Rade never costs any life. Also, even if you one-for-one with Domri Rade, his +1 should draw you into a replacement threat so you should come out ahead. I wouldn't advocate running 4 Domri Rades, but I can see 2 of them making there way into a list with tops and confidants. I can see a 'fight club' type of deck in legacy. An aggro control deck that beats every other aggro matchup.

The kind of mid-range Jund-ish deck you would theoretically want to run Domri Rade in, only runs about 12-15 creatures (at most).

That's probably the biggest issue. Maybe some Naya Zoo variant could run it. Maybe not.