Bant Biovisonary Combo

[MaximumC]

Biovisionary
1UG
Creature - Human Wizard (R)
At the beginning of each end step, if you control four or more creatures named Biovisionary, you win the game.
2/3

Look at that spicy meatball. Just look at it. Taste it. Think of how good it will taste when you throw it at your opponent and win the game. Feels good, huh? The purpose of this thread is to find a recipe that can serve up this dish to order, in the hopes of making a new deck that attacks the format from an unexpected direction.

Here are some other herbs and spices that might go into this biovisionary brew:

1. Mirrorweave

The other half of the combo; the noodles to the meatball. If you have Biovisionary and three creatures in play (no mean feat in Legacy, true) then casting Mirrorweave wins you the game during your end step. There are other ways to serve Biovisionary (Infinite Reflection, etc) but none that are this cost-effective.

2. Supply // Demand

The marinara sauce. This card works so well with Biovisionary and Mirrorweave I can't even begin to wrap my fork around it. It does everything you might need; makes tokens if you need more creatures in play, and tutors for either piece of the combo if you don't. It also tutors for answers if you need em, like Supreme Verdict! Holds everything together.

3. Green Sun's Zenith -and- Merchant Scroll

Powerful tutors which each can get one half of the combo, as well as utility bears or blue answers, like Echoing Truth. Zenith in particular seems really attractive, since it lets you run only a singleton Biovisionary and get him when you need him. Ramps with Dryad Arbor. All around good time.

From there, I feel like you could fill out the dish in a variety of different ways. You probably want a GSZ toolbox, a countermagic suite, and a white removal suite. Maybe you build it more like Maverick, maybe like Bant aggro, or maybe like Miracle Control. However, since the name of the game is getting several small creatures in play and then winning, I feel like there are some powerful cards that leverage this goal that don't see play elsewhere:

Retribution of the Meek - Goodbye, Tarmagoyfs, Emrakul, Grislebrand, and Progenitus!
Master of the Wild Hunt - Potentially powerful top end to deal with all those Jund critters running around while ramping your creatures into a Biovisionary in.
Imperious Perfect / Rhys the Redeemed / Jade Mage - More tokens! Perfect makes a steady stream of 2/2s, but she doesn't come down fast enough to stop Lackey...
Wall of Kelp - YOUR PASTA NEEDS KELP. A good source of the japanese "Savory" taste.
Saproling Cluster - Make some 1/1s at end of turn? Nah, probably not.
Patagia Viper - Triggers your Biovisonary all on its lonesome, gives you a plethora of chump blockers. Sort of a replacement Lingering Souls if you don't want to go into W and B. I sure don't want black pasta.
Sundering Growth - A value disenchant if you're running token generators.
Beast Within - Removal when you need it, a creature when you need it.

Discuss! I wanna make this work.

[Darkenslight]

Biovisionary
1UG
Creature - Human Wizard (R)
At the beginning of each end step, if you control four or more creatures named Biovisionary, you win the game.
2/3

Look at that spicy meatball. Just look at it. Taste it. Think of how good it will taste when you throw it at your opponent and win the game. Feels good, huh? The purpose of this thread is to find a recipe that can serve up this dish to order, in the hopes of making a new deck that attacks the format from an unexpected direction.

Here are some other herbs and spices that might go into this biovisionary brew:

1. Mirrorweave

The other half of the combo; the noodles to the meatball. If you have Biovisionary and three creatures in play (no mean feat in Legacy, true) then casting Mirrorweave wins you the game during your end step. There are other ways to serve Biovisionary (Infinite Reflection, etc) but none that are this cost-effective.

2. Supply // Demand

The marinara sauce. This card works so well with Biovisionary and Mirrorweave I can't even begin to wrap my fork around it. It does everything you might need; makes tokens if you need more creatures in play, and tutors for either piece of the combo if you don't. It also tutors for answers if you need em, like Supreme Verdict! Holds everything together.

3. Green Sun's Zenith -and- Merchant Scroll

Powerful tutors which each can get one half of the combo, as well as utility bears or blue answers, like Echoing Truth. Zenith in particular seems really attractive, since it lets you run only a singleton Biovisionary and get him when you need him. Ramps with Dryad Arbor. All around good time.

The question is, does Mirrorweave work, or do SBAs clear the creatures before the "intervening-if" clause?

[Greenpoe]

Mirrorweave looks like you could have some hilarious situations when you're facing Goblins/Maverick/Nic Fit/any deck with creatures (even Miracles, if you leave mana open!). Vs. any creature deck, you can just morph everything into a 1/1 or whatever else, kind of like Humility turned into an instant.

[MaximumC]

The question is, does Mirrorweave work, or do SBAs clear the creatures before the "intervening-if" clause?

Yeah, I think it does. Mirrorweave's effect wears off at end of turn. Biovisionary checks at the beginning of the end step. Sort of how the bonus from Giant Growth doesn't "wear off" before the lightning bolt damage does, allowing you to save creatures from lethal damage with it. I think.


Mirrorweave looks like you could have some hilarious situations when you're facing Goblins/Maverick/Nic Fit/any deck with creatures (even Miracles, if you leave mana open!). Vs. any creature deck, you can just morph everything into a 1/1 or whatever else, kind of like Humility turned into an instant.

But then you blew your win condition :(

I suppose you could up the number of Mirroweaves, and run Delvers and alot of token creatures. You'd have the alt-win of "everything becomes 3/2 flying gg"

[bruizar]

I would try intuition and lingering souls over merchant scroll/green sun's zenith. You could also try squadron hawk but i think they are too slow.

[metamet]

So if your opponent has four or more creatures as well, is it a draw? Or how do those triggers stack depending on whose turn it is?

And mana dorks + an alt win in terms of undercosted aggressive creatures (Delver, such as was mentioned) seem necessary. Birds, Hierarch, etc.

Seems like we only need Blue and Green here, with white being a convenient third. What does White itself offer?

And Cackling Counterpart might be a good "counter" do a removal spell targeting Biovisionary/another way of getting more.

[Aggro_zombies]

So if your opponent has four or more creatures as well, is it a draw? Or how do those triggers stack depending on whose turn it is?
AP-NAP: Active Player, then Non-Active Player. Your opponent will win first if you Mirrorweave on your turn.

[MaximumC]

So if your opponent has four or more creatures as well, is it a draw? Or how do those triggers stack depending on whose turn it is?

Yeah, like Aggo_Z says, you just cast Mirrorweave on the opponent's turn if you each have lots of creatures.




What does White itself offer?


Delicious Supply // Demand. Not sure if this is enough to justify the splash, but it sure seems like it to me. I mean, it helps you find all three sides of the (essentially) three card combo.

[ahg113]

Quick spit-balling, cause I love niche silliness (prolly why I don't win as much as I'd like) Unfortunately, I can't put in a Wall of Kelp, nothing good ever came of Homelands that I'm willing to admit, aside from Merchant Scroll.

Some cards I wanted to add but didn't find room for - Crucible of Worlds (I love Waste-lock), Ensnaring Bridge/Meekstone (or some anti-dude tech non-Humility), something like Evolution Charm/Genesis/Sylvan Hierophant (with sac outlet), 1 plains.

So got the combo win of visionary and mirrorweave, maybe turn 3 if not disrupted. A lil Ramp with Noble, alt-win con with Delver and JtMS, obv blue tech Brainstorm/Ponder, tutor- GSZ, Merchant Scroll, Crop Rotation, removal-StP. If desired, play 3 Supply//Demand instead of the StP.

Since I will never play this deck, price was of no concern, hence the playset of Jace's and Legendary Legend Lands, that I threw in just because it's free to type.


1 Biovisionary
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Crop Rotation
3 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Mirrorweave
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Merchant Scroll
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rain
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Forest
1 Island
60

Cheers,
winning with this deserves an award

[ahg113]

Slippery Bogle might have better synergy with the deck rather than Delver, making all creatures GSZ targets, and they have some self-protection. Bogle also has the AWESOME keyword. Misdirection could be another card to deflect removal in place of Daze.


And for a sideboard I'm thinking that the combo is cute, but will be prepared for in the other games. I propose a transformational SB, putting in 2 Show and Tell, 2 Progenitus, 4 Natural Order and the appropriate hate or other counter cards.

[baghdadbob]

This might be the appropriate deck for a cunning wish board with mirror weave in it. I would rely as little on the combo as possible.

[TraxDaMax]

Mask of the Mimic and Snapcaster Mage might be useful.

[Megadeus]

You could put it into a Nic Fit shell since it costs so much mana. And you arenplaying gSz in Nic Fit anyway.

[MaximumC]

Mask of the Mimic and Snapcaster Mage might be useful.

I don't see what Mask gives you. It requires you to sac the creature to get it's copy.


You could put it into a Nic Fit shell since it costs so much mana. And you arenplaying gSz in Nic Fit anyway.

I feel like this deck wants its mana dorks to stick around, so that they can become Biovisionaries for the win.

Perhaps the acceleration suite starts like this:

2 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman

Then your aggro suite is basically Delver:

4 Delver of Secrets

Which works out because, if you have three or four creatures, mirrorweaving them all into flipped Delvers is probably a win on its own.

And then a GSZ toolbox:

1 Scavenging Ooze (Or Goyf; big beater)
1 Quasli Pridemage (Answer for artifacts)
1 Sylvan Safekeeper (Protection from targeted removal)
1 Biovisionary (win condition)
1 Fight Bear (defeat Bobs and Shamen)

Which works out to 15 creatures. Say that you leave a few in the board form your toolbox, taking you to 13 creatures in the deck at a time. Don't want any more, cuz you want to flip Delver. So then we stick in some spells:

(12 Utility)
2 Lingering Souls
3 Supply // Demand
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Brainstorm
1 Mirrorweave

(12 Control)
2 Divert
2 Daze
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares

So then you have a GUw with a tiny black splash for Lingering Souls and Shaman. The gameplan is to ramp and dump creatures on turns 1-3, counter the wrath or terminus on turn 3 or 4, and then either beat or look for chances to combo out.

[ahg113]

While I love the enthusiasm, I'm not sure the Mirrorweave trick is going to work for combat damage typically. At the moment you make your attackers 3/2 fliers, any creatures the opponent has will also become 3/2 fliers. It seems that is gonna be a wash unless you have superior numbers of untapped to tapped creatures.
If you're looking for a creature to alpha strike with including the Mirrorweave trick, it has to be a creature that has protection from it's color, that isn't blue or white. So basically... it has to be a green, pro-green creature. And those don't exist naturally in Magic.

Not a fan of adding black, because I'm racist. Not really. It's a distraction, DRS is great, but is not on point with what is trying to be accomplished. Why have a conditional ramp, when you can just play Noble and have a sure thing? If you want to get techy. Put in 2 BoP, and use them to swing with Noble Exalted boost triggers. Slippery Bogle I feel is a better choice than Delver because it protects itself from spot removal, pitches and is tutorable. So you only have to worry about protecting Biovisionary, which at that point you should be ready to win. And if all else fails, JtMS is your 2nd wincon. With BoP beats (feels like an oxymoron) being a 3rd way to win.

But yeah, it was your brainchild, so you can decide on which way to parent it. Home school? Private school? Public School? No school?

[bruizar]

Windbrisk Heights is a good card for this type of deck. I think you also want mortarpod in this deck. Mirrorweaving a germ seems bad ass. I'd try Mirror Entity as a one-off. Lastly, a token generator in the form of Elspeth 1.0, 2.0, Sorin or Garruk Relentless could help. Garruk Relentless also has the 'survival of the fittest' mechanic when flipped, which can search for Biovisionary.

[ahg113]

Windbrisk Heights is a good card for this type of deck. I think you also want mortarpod in this deck. Mirrorweaving a germ seems bad ass. I'd try Mirror Entity as a one-off. Lastly, a token generator in the form of Elspeth 1.0, 2.0, Sorin or Garruk Relentless could help. Garruk Relentless also has the 'survival of the fittest' mechanic when flipped, which can search for Biovisionary.

From my proposed deck, it was greatly missing a token generator. All the plains walkers you suggested make sense, on some level or another. I think I'd rank them Elspeth 1.0, Garruk, Elspeth 2.0, Sorin.

I'd cut one Jace, and another card somewhere to include two additional planeswalkers. I'm thinking Elspeth 1.0 seems like a better wincon, although not as synergistic as Garruk with his survival ability or Elspeth 2.0 putting 3 tokens into play asap.

For windbrisk heights, I'm not as big a fan though. The condition is to be attacking with three+ creatures. Attacking isn't something this deck will likely excel at. Plus, what particular spell is going to benefit from being cast/put in play, during the attack step?

Any other suggestions for a full decklist?

[TraxDaMax]

I don't see what Mask gives you. It requires you to sac the creature to get it's copy.



No,

It requires you to sac "a" creature. Not the creature you want to copy.
In other words, having the 2/3 on the field with a mana dork means end of turn Mask of the Mimic, and Snapcaster Mage into Mask of the Mimic sacrificing Snappie leaving you with 3 copies of the creature at the end of their turn. In your turn play just have to find a copy with another mask/GSZ or whatever and win. Playing green means you'll likely play 2 Dryad Arbor to ramp and abuse fetchlands. So finding dorks to sac shouldn't be a problem.

The real problem is effectively protecting a 2/3 for 3 mana. Mirrorweave on it only to have it Abrupt Decay'ed seems like a river crying.

[MaximumC]

But yeah, it was your brainchild, so you can decide on which way to parent it. Home school? Private school? Public School? No school?

School of Hard Knocks.



While I love the enthusiasm, I'm not sure the Mirrorweave trick is going to work for combat damage typically. At the moment you make your attackers 3/2 fliers, any creatures the opponent has will also become 3/2 fliers. It seems that is gonna be a wash unless you have superior numbers of untapped to tapped creatures.


It's situational, for sure. If you have more creatures, they get in for 3 a pop. More if there is a Goyf on the field. If you have equal number of creatures, or roughly so, now Mirrorweave after blockers becomes a virtual wrath of god, since each 3/2 will kill each other. A good option if your mana dorks are being eaten by KotR or something.



If you're looking for a creature to alpha strike with including the Mirrorweave trick, it has to be a creature that has protection from it's color, that isn't blue or white.


Why can't it be blue or white...? Not fetchable? Stillmoon Cavalier and Voice of Truth work, as does a number of crappy Red creatures. I like the delver bomb concept better though.



Slippery Bogle I feel is a better choice than Delver because it protects itself from spot removal, pitches and is tutorable.

Why so much Bogle love? Just because it's shroudy?


I think you also want mortarpod in this deck. Mirrorweaving a germ seems bad ass.

That is amazing. You are amazing. BRUIZARS ALL SEEING EYE WINS AGAIN.

Man, maybe you work this into a Stoneforge shell then, huh? Mirrorweave a germ if you need to do a board wipe.

[bruizar]

I still need to think about a good deck list. Sorin is nice if you are playing with Supply / Demand, because you can tutor him up. The question is, would you rather spend the tutor on Sorin or on a combo piece.

TraxDaMax is right about Mask of the Mimic. You can even sideboard 1 Emrakul and 1 Griselbrand if you're on the Mask of the Mimic plan versus SnT :-)

I'm also pretty certain that you want Dryad Arbor with fetchland. Hell, you could run 2 Dryad Arbors and EOT fetch them all and combo on your turn.


That is amazing. You are amazing. BRUIZARS ALL SEEING EYE WINS AGAIN.

Man, maybe you work this into a Stoneforge shell then, huh? Mirrorweave a germ if you need to do a board wipe.

Hah, thanks :-). I was thinking the same. SFM with living weapon gives you 2 creatures. All you need to do then is fetch a dryad arbor and resolve a Biovisionary, or something similar. If that fails, you can still run SFM to victory. When you have Batterskull out and you Mirrorweave the germ, you are left with a 4/4 against an empty board.

You probably want access to Zealous Persecution in the sideboard, so I am leaning towards a black splash. This not only enables Lingering Souls and Deathrite Shaman, but also gives you access to Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy. Persecution is multicolored so it can be tutored up.

[MaximumC]

TraxDaMax is right about Mask of the Mimic. You can even sideboard 1 Emrakul and 1 Griselbrand if you're on the Mask of the Mimic plan versus SnT :-)


I am completely on board with the plan of playing CuteStuff.dec, but the problem is that Biovisionary really sucks on his own. A list running Mask of the Mimic suggests that we are using 4x Biovisionary. In that case, I think you lose the GSZ toolbox. Maybe something like this:

Creatures (12)
2x Quasali Pridemage
3x Noble Heirarch
2x Birds of Paradise
1x Tarmagoyf (mostly here as a Mimic target)
4x Biovisionary
4x Stoneforge Mystic

Equipment (3)
1x Batterskull
1x Motorpod
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

Spells (8)
3x Mask of the Mimic (+ relevant sideboard tech)
2x Awakening Zone
2x Mirrorweave

Walkers (3)
1x Sorin, Lord of Innies
2x Jace, TMS

Tutor (4)
2x Supply // Demand
2x Merchant Scroll

Permission (11)
7x (Force of Will / Divert / Pierce / Counterspell)
4x Swords to Plowshares

Mana Sources (20) Including a few Dryad Arbors.

Sideboard
Griselbrand, Emrakul, another Mask for Show'n'Tell
Some other stuff.

I really want to find a place for Lingering Souls if we got black. Oh man, there are so many cute interactions here it's making my head spin. And I bet the deck is TERRIBAD.

[metamet]

1x Tarmagoyf (mostly here as a Mimic target)
...
3x Mask of the Mimic (+ relevant sideboard tech)


Mask of the Mimic requires the searched for card to already be on the field.

[MaximumC]

Mask of the Mimic requires the searched for card to already be on the field.

Well yea. That's why Goyf is the initial one-of, since so many decks run that. Enemy drops a Goyf? Get one of your own. As Bruizar suggested, when the enemy drops a legendary monster off of Show and Tell, get your own and blow em up.

[ahg113]

Why can't it be blue or white...? Not fetchable? Stillmoon Cavalier and Voice of Truth work, as does a number of crappy Red creatures. I like the delver bomb concept better though. Can't be blue or white because then it's not a legal target for Mirrorweave.


Why so much Bogle love? Just because it's shroudy? It's shroudy, and it's cheap, so it's easy to quickly put them into play. Winning as quick and easily as possible instead of a drawn out slug fest.

[MaximumC]

Can't be blue or white because then it's not a legal target for Mirrorweave.


I dont... what? Am I missing something here?

rer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153973

Card Name: Mirrorweave
Mana Cost: 2 U/W U/W
Converted Mana Cost:4

Types: Instant

Card Text:

Each other creature becomes a copy of target nonlegendary creature until end of turn.

Flavor Text:
"Those who are different are untrustworthy, unpredictable. Put your safety in the hands of your own kind."
—Bowen, Barrenton guardcaptain

Where is there a restriction on the colors that Mirrorweave can target...?

EDIT: Oooooooooooooh if the creature you're copying has protection, it can't be targeted by Mirrorweave due to the protection. GOT IT.

[ahg113]

Furthering the alpha strike Mirrorweave....

Black offers -
Minion of Leshrac

Red offers -
Beasts of Bogardan
Skirk Fire Marshal
Subterranean Spirit
Vulshok Refugee

[bruizar]

This is the core from my first instinct. I'm lacking permission such as Spell Pierce though:

4x Brainstorm (Brainstorm loves fetch, fetch loves Deathrite Shaman. Good trio)
3x Lingering Souls (Gives you an army for Mirrorweave and is generally awesome. Liliana is everywhere and this card likes forced discard)
4x Stoneforge Mystic (Gets equipment (living weapon and Jitte, both take out creatures with Mirrorweave).)
4x Deathrite Shaman (too much value interacting with the opponent. fetchable by Supply // Demand)
1x Biovisionary (perhaps more, not sure, so little space. fetchable by Supply // Demand)
3x Mirrorweave (Mostly used as mass removal, and sometimes 'oops I win'. fetchable by Supply // Demand)
2x Supply // Demand (A versatile tutor and a crappy 'entreat the angels')
1x Mortarpod (shoots dark confidant and grim lavamancer, gives you a germ that is cheap to cast for Mirrorweave)
1x Batterskull (Also gives you a germ, and a path to victory, but only if you can cheat it through SFM)
1x Umezawa's Jitte (Sometimes, you need to win the attrition war. Mirrorweaving a token and then using jitte counters to wipe the board is useful.)

2x Abrupt Decay (can't be countered, fetchable by Supply // Demand)
1x Maelstrom Pulse (can be countered, but hits bigger stuff, fetchable by Supply // Demand. Mirrorweave + Maelstorm Pulse is also a board wipe, even though its 7 mana.)
3x Thougthseize (because we don't run counters atm)
2x Inquisition of Kozilek (this one is free but we already have abrupt decay to take care of <3 CC. Thoughtseize more important. Could be replaced with cabal therapy perhaps?)
2x Jace the Mindsculptor (Comeon. its jace..)
1x Garruk Relentless (I like the combination of tokens, removal and its survival ability.)
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad (Lifelinkers are good, and it can be tutored up.)
2x Spell Pierce Mostly against SnT, Sneak Attack, counters and Jace.
1x Spell Snare Hits Stoneforge Mystic, Tarmogoyf, Snapcaster Mage, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor and Dark Confidant.
39
+Fetch-heavy dualland base with Dryad Arbor


EDIT:

A cute interaction is when someone has a bunch of creatures and Dark Confidant. You can turn everything into a Dark Confidant and let your opponent draw himself to death, or make your own lingering souls tokens draw you a bunch of cards (and potentially killing you :-).)

SIDEBOARD OPTIONS:
Geist of Saint Traft
Dryad Militant
Abrupt Decay
Zealous Persecution
Trygon Predator (Flies, effect every turn) / Qasali Pridemage (Exalted trigger and leaves mana open for Pierce) / Harmonic Sliver (with Jace)

[MaximumC]

A cute interaction is when someone has a bunch of creatures and Dark Confidant. You can turn everything into a Dark Confidant and let your opponent draw himself to death, or make your own lingering souls tokens draw you a bunch of cards (and potentially killing you :-).)

This will be the cutest deck in the world. I'm talking japanime-eyes on a kitten cute here.

EDIT: Wait, wait, wait. Does this even work? Confidant triggers at the beginning of controllers' upkeep, ya? You can't cast spells that turn until after the Confidant triggers already go on the stack. Isn't that right? On the flipside, Mirrorweave lasts only until end of turn... I'm a little rusty on whether that means you can ruin it out during the end step to make the effect last through the next turn until the beginning of the next end step... but I dont think so...

[bruizar]

This will be the cutest deck in the world. I'm talking japanime-eyes on a kitten cute here.

You can also at least try to fizzle a glimpse turn by turning elves into non-elves for a turn so they can't generate absurd amounts of mana. I bet it will take some time before all the major interactions with Mirrorweave are explored.

How does Mirrorweave + Fertilid work? Board wipe or bunch of 2/2's?


This will be the cutest deck in the world. I'm talking japanime-eyes on a kitten cute here.

EDIT: Wait, wait, wait. Does this even work? Confidant triggers at the beginning of controllers' upkeep, ya? You can't cast spells that turn until after the Confidant triggers already go on the stack. Isn't that right? On the flipside, Mirrorweave lasts only until end of turn... I'm a little rusty on whether that means you can ruin it out during the end step to make the effect last through the next turn until the beginning of the next end step... but I dont think so...

Ah, I think you are right unfortunately :/

[MaximumC]

How does Mirrorweave + Fertilid work? Board wipe or bunch of 2/2's?


I don't think counters get copied. So yea, that would work. That's sort of similar to the Humility / Crusade deck I made once upon a time. It was full of white token producers, 4x Humility and 4x Godhead of Awe, and 8x Crusade effects. Because of how layers worked, the enemy gets 1/1s but you get 1/1s boosted by the crusade. Ah, good times.

That wasn't what this thread was about though, was it? I think you hit the nail on the head with Germ tokens earlier; the other 0/0s that exist in Magic are not Legacy playable, as far as I know.

[bruizar]

I don't think counters get copied. So yea, that would work. That's sort of similar to the Humility / Crusade deck I made once upon a time. It was full of white token producers, 4x Humility and 4x Godhead of Awe, and 8x Crusade effects. Because of how layers worked, the enemy gets 1/1s but you get 1/1s boosted by the crusade. Ah, good times.

That wasn't what this thread was about though, was it? I think you hit the nail on the head with Germ tokens earlier; the other 0/0s that exist in Magic are not Legacy playable, as far as I know.

I was pondering over Fertilid because it is a Green Sun's Zenith target and it ramps and destroys everything with Mirrorweave if we are correct on the ruling. The list I posted above doesn't support Green Sun's Zenith at the moment though. Green Sun's Zenith is actually very powerful right now because Ancestral Visions is a thing and Riftsweeper takes care of suspended cards. I also read that some storm decks are now trying out Lotus Bloom, but until suspended cards become ubiquitous, I wouldn't run Riftsweeper. That said, Green Sun's Zenith is a lot more cost efficient compared to Supply // Demand but it also does a lot less.

In my build, I am running only 1 Biovisionary. Your list runs 4 Biovisionaries. I'm really curious what the right number is.

[MaximumC]

I was pondering over Fertilid because it is a Green Sun's Zenith target and it ramps and destroys everything with Mirrorweave if we are correct on the ruling. The list I posted above doesn't support Green Sun's Zenith at the moment though. Green Sun's Zenith is actually very powerful right now because Ancestral Visions is a thing and Riftsweeper takes care of suspended cards. I also read that some storm decks are now trying out Lotus Bloom, but until suspended cards become ubiquitous, I wouldn't run Riftsweeper. That said, Green Sun's Zenith is a lot more cost efficient compared to Supply // Demand but it also does a lot less.

In my build, I am running only 1 Biovisionary. Your list runs 4 Biovisionaries. I'm really curious what the right number is.

I think it totally depends on whether you go with Mask of the Mimic or with GSZ. With mask, you want to have more Biovisionaries to find. Probably want clone effects, too. With GSZ, you only want one Biovisionary that you fetch if the stars happen to allign.

I think GSZ is the way to go, but I could be wrong.

[Tempus]

A cute interaction is when someone has a bunch of creatures and Dark Confidant. You can turn everything into a Dark Confidant and let your opponent draw himself to death, or make your own lingering souls tokens draw you a bunch of cards (and potentially killing you :-).)

You cast it in the end step => it lasts till the next endstep => lots of Confidant triggers


You can also at least try to fizzle a glimpse turn by turning elves into non-elves for a turn so they can't generate absurd amounts of mana. I bet it will take some time before all the major interactions with Mirrorweave are explored.

How does Mirrorweave + Fertilid work? Board wipe or bunch of 2/2's?

It's a board wipe as the creatures don't enter the battlefield and therefore don't gain +1/+1 counters.


Also do you really want to make the deck 4c?

What about something like this:


4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradies
2 Biovisionary
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Spell Pierce
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
3 Mirrorweave
2 Supply//Demand

1 Batterskull
1 Mortarpod
1 Swords of Body and Mind / Swords of Light and Shadow

2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand / Windswept Heath
2 Island
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Dryad Arbor


Body and Mind gives Tokens, Sword of Light and Shadow would be nice for Recursion.

Lots of mana dorks as mirror weave fodder and possible T3 Zenith for Biovisionary.
2 Biosvisionary cause one might get sent to the Fields.

SB:
Natural Order, Progenitus seems to be a nice option...

[bruizar]

@Tempus: That list looks a lot more streamlined, but if you are running bop, maybe noble hierarch can still be deathrite shaman? The utility is really great and besides SFM, you don't run many threats. At GP Denver I've seen Deathrite Shamans take down games on its own.

[MaximumC]

You cast it in the end step => it lasts till the next endstep => lots of Confidant triggers

It's a board wipe as the creatures don't enter the battlefield and therefore don't gain +1/+1 counters.


Also do you really want to make the deck 4c?

What about something like this:


4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradies
2 Biovisionary
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Spell Pierce
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
3 Mirrorweave
2 Supply//Demand

1 Batterskull
1 Mortarpod
1 Swords of Body and Mind / Swords of Light and Shadow

2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand / Windswept Heath
2 Island
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Dryad Arbor


Body and Mind gives Tokens, Sword of Light and Shadow would be nice for Recursion.

Lots of mana dorks as mirror weave fodder and possible T3 Zenith for Biovisionary.
2 Biosvisionary cause one might get sent to the Fields.

SB:
Natural Order, Progenitus seems to be a nice option...

Totally Light and Shadow. You will always have mana dorks to recur, and that's better than making tokens. The other abilities of Body and Mind are too crappy.

GSZ gets only mana dorks or Biovisionary in this build. Would it be too much of a stretch to include a few toolbox creatures too?

Also, I think Divert needs main deck consideration given the proliferation of Decays.

[Tempus]

@Tempus: That list looks a lot more streamlined, but if you are running bop, maybe noble hierarch can still be deathrite shaman? The utility is really great and besides SFM, you don't run many threats. At GP Denver I've seen Deathrite Shamans take down games on its own.

Deathrite is pretty amazing, that's true. But then you want to have a Underground Sea or a Bayou in your deck (Scrubland wouldn't do much). I'd cut a Tundra, Plains, Forest or Arbor for that, not sure what would be best.
Also I'd probably go to 4 BoP and 3 Deathrite Shaman (cause I need my opponent to fetch or hit a fetch myself to actually produce mana). This should still reliably provide a second turn Deathrite Shaman. The problem is, that we can't kill an opposing Shaman, which makes ours worse.

And what I'd like to do with the deck would be something like:
T1 Land, Manadork (BoP/Arbor)
T2 Land, Manadork + something else (some creature or the land to be a fetch for arbor)
T3 Land, GSZ -> Biovisionary (with Spell Pierce protection)
T4 Mirrorweave

EDIT:


GSZ gets only mana dorks or Biovisionary in this build. Would it be too much of a stretch to include a few toolbox creatures too?

Could sure be nice, but what kind and why?
Problem cards as I see them are:

Abrupt Decay
Humility
Swords to Plowshares
Lightning Bolt
Terminus
Supreme Verdict

Decay and Verdict can't really be handled by creatures (ok, maybe Saffi Eriksdotter to a lesser extend), neither can Humility.
The other three can be handled with counters, which I have 8 in my list. You don't care for too much, so you can use your counters to force through your combo.


Also, I think Divert needs main deck consideration given the proliferation of Decays.

That's why I included a Misdirection. Some Diverts might still have some merit, also for Hymn to Tourach.

[catmint]

I don't think you can go for an "aggro-control combofinish deck" since all this biovisionaries and mirrorweaves are pretty clunky. Lets compare to Natural Order RUG (back when NO was a card. It had less clunk, a solid "not combo" gameplan and very little requirements besides resolving a 4 mana spell.

Not sure but it might be better to focus more on the combo and maybe have some transformational sideboarding for matchups where the combo does not make sense (vs. Terminus control or fast combo decks).

As for going into white: Supply // Demand might not be worth it. Supply is a very weak token generator (expensive and crappy tokens). The tutor demand likely won't be used for biovisionary too often (GSZ) and since games will go long with cantrips you should find Mirrorweave when you are setup to win. 3cmc sorcery tutoring value cards playing a midrangy deck is a slow tech that is usually bad imo. If white then mother of runes would be a card hugh?

If a third color I would go black. Next to discard also offers stuff like bitterblossom, unearth. Confidant is tempting but since you want to run mirrorweave and 6-8 "fow" probably not the best idea.

The Mask tech looks very tempting but you are down a card and if it is countered ... ouch. Phantasmal Image is cheap clone and deals with Teeg or just on the defense copying attackers. It is sorcery speed but maybe aether vial would be a thing. At instant speed plaxmanta counters a removal and is another random body for cloning.

[bruizar]

I think Mirrorweave should be played as a value card instead of pure combo. The fact that it is an instant really sets it apart from other cards.

This thing functions as:
A) A wrath of God
B) An overrun
C) Oops I win with Biovisionary
D) Random utility from upkeep triggers (provided the end-step cast works)

Natural Order doesn't provide the same amount of utility for a card that also wins the game. I think you are correct about Supply // Demand though, but I will test it first before coming to any conclusions because I really want that card to be awesome. Can't believe I missed Bitterblossom though. Especially if we're running Mortarpod. But is it better than Lingering Souls with all these Abrupt Decays?

[Aggro_zombies]

Bitterblossom is not better than Lingering Souls, period. The game needs to last for five turns after you resolve Bitterblossom to generate more tokens than a single LS, and in the interim you've lost a quarter of your starting life total. That's not really acceptable unless you're really desperate to stay in three colors.

BUG may be an appropriate shell for this, though. You get access to DRS, Decay, Bob, and discard to clear the way for your combo. Discard seems especially important at clearing out opposing Decays prior to Mirrorweaving.

[Tempus]

BUG may be an appropriate shell for this, though. You get access to DRS, Decay, Bob, and discard to clear the way for your combo. Discard seems especially important at clearing out opposing Decays prior to Mirrorweaving.

Some permant removal might be nice, card advantage is always nice and discard brings nice a nice addition to the deck.


4 Birds of Paradise
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Biovisionary
3 Dark Confidant
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Spell Pierce
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
2 Mirror Weave
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

2 Ponder / Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Dryad Arbor


More fetchies to support DRS reliably (no Wastelands as in most other decks that run him). A little discard to snag opposing Decays, some Decays to kill a faster clock and enough digging to find the combo pieces. Overall more protection and a secondary plan for the deck.

[MaximumC]

Some permant removal might be nice, card advantage is always nice and discard brings nice a nice addition to the deck.


4 Birds of Paradise
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Biovisionary
3 Dark Confidant
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Spell Pierce
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
2 Mirror Weave
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

2 Ponder / Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Dryad Arbor


More fetchies to support DRS reliably (no Wastelands as in most other decks that run him). A little discard to snag opposing Decays, some Decays to kill a faster clock and enough digging to find the combo pieces. Overall more protection and a secondary plan for the deck.

Mirrorweave has no synergy with anything here except the combo. Seems like a waste. I really like the Stoneforge package better.

[Aggro_zombies]

Some permant removal might be nice, card advantage is always nice and discard brings nice a nice addition to the deck.


4 Birds of Paradise
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Biovisionary
3 Dark Confidant
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Spell Pierce
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
2 Mirror Weave
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

2 Ponder / Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Dryad Arbor


More fetchies to support DRS reliably (no Wastelands as in most other decks that run him). A little discard to snag opposing Decays, some Decays to kill a faster clock and enough digging to find the combo pieces. Overall more protection and a secondary plan for the deck.
I don't see the point of Misdirection AND discard. I mean, there is probably a corner-case scenario where you use discard to check if they have Decay, then pass and they draw Decay, then you try to Mirrorweave on their turn and they get you. However, I think against Decay decks, and particularly BUG, you want more than a single Misdirection, and Divert may just be better. I would not main any Misdirections, though - your Bob curve is not very good as-is with 4 Force, 2 Mirrorweave, and potentially 2 JTMS on top of the random MisD. I would run MisDs and/or Diverts in the sideboard since Force is not that good against BUG.

My starting point would probably be something like:

4 DRS
3 Birds
4 Dark Confidant
4 Goyf
2 Biovisionary

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
2 GSZ

3 Inquisition
2 Thoughtseize
3 Force
3 Spell Pierce

2 Mirrorweave

20 land

...that seems like a decent-ish starting point to me, though you could possible go down to 18 land and run 2 Decay main. The biggest issue is getting enough creatures, which makes me wonder whether going to all this work is worth in when you can get a Progenitus for four mana and one creature and that plan hasn't been good in forever.

[bruizar]

With SFM and Lingering Souls you should have no problem hitting 4 creatures. I'm not sure if you can afford not running white. Hell, even a singleton Spectral Procession would help. Progenitus hasn't been good because he often get raced or edicted away.

[Aggro_zombies]

With SFM and Lingering Souls you should have no problem hitting 4 creatures. I'm not sure if you can afford not running white. Hell, even a singleton Spectral Procession would help. Progenitus hasn't been good because he often get raced or edicted away.
Yeah, but there are fewer preconditions to "going off" with Progenitus, and Abrupt Decay is a thing now. People can race this deck, too, especially with Delver because blocking with your Spirit tokens drives down the number of creatures you have. I guess you can run SFM for germ token equipments, but Esper Stoneforge is a deck - one that just won a GP, no less - and I'm not sure what advantages the Biovisionary combo brings to the table over running regular, garden-variety Stoneblade. It seems like it takes a bunch of spots in your deck and I can't figure out what weaknesses it addresses since it's slow and mana- and permanent-intensive while being vulnerable to removal and discard.

[MaximumC]

Yeah, but there are fewer preconditions to "going off" with Progenitus, and Abrupt Decay is a thing now. People can race this deck, too, especially with Delver because blocking with your Spirit tokens drives down the number of creatures you have. I guess you can run SFM for germ token equipments, but Esper Stoneforge is a deck - one that just won a GP, no less - and I'm not sure what advantages the Biovisionary combo brings to the table over running regular, garden-variety Stoneblade. It seems like it takes a bunch of spots in your deck and I can't figure out what weaknesses it addresses since it's slow and mana- and permanent-intensive while being vulnerable to removal and discard.

My thought process was that, assuming you run the GSZ package, Biovisionary doesn't really require much space in the deck at all. Mirrorweave combos hard enough with germ tokens and other cards to make it potentially a good playable on its own in a Stoneforge shell.

That is, maybe you can take the advantages of one deck and spice them up with a win condition people are not expecting. And make mad style points, too.

[Darkenslight]

Would it not be better to have a pure U/G list, at least to start? Here's how I'd build it:

Lands

5 Forest
5 Island
4 Tropical Island
2 Breeding Pool
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

Creatures

4 Biovisionary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Phyrexian Metamorph

Spells

4 Cackling Counterpart
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Swiftfoot Boots
3 Misdirection
1 Rite of Replication

As a mediocre starting point.

[xfxf]

Maybe adding Green Sun's Zenith to fetch up visionaries and Cavern of Souls to make sure hard cast creatures land?


Would it not be better to have a pure U/G list, at least to start? Here's how I'd build it:

Lands

5 Forest
5 Island
4 Tropical Island
2 Breeding Pool
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

Creatures

4 Biovisionary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Phyrexian Metamorph

Spells

4 Cackling Counterpart
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Swiftfoot Boots
3 Misdirection
1 Rite of Replication

As a mediocre starting point.

[MaximumC]

Been tinkering a bit and I think I've determined that Mask of the Mimic, while awesome in its own way, really doesn't help with Biovisionary much. I found situations where I would fetch a second Bio, which felt good, but I was still two more Biovisionaries away from winning. You don't want to have to slowly accumulate more Bios over many turns, because the opponent will just dig for disruption; or kill you outright. I want to use Masks in a deck at some point, but this is not that deck. If the ever print a creature that needs TWO copies in play to be awesome, then Masks might have a chance to shine.

(This list has 75 cards; tailor SB to suit matchup)

Mana Dorks (6)
4x Deathrite Shaman (Too good not to run 4. One-mana planeswalker what)
2x Birds of Paradise

Combo (5)
2x Biovisionary
3x Mirroweave (I want to draw this relatively often, since it combos with most everything else, but not in my opening hand. 3 seems good.)

Other Creatures (8)
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Phyrexian Metamorph (Best clone in a four-color deck, imho; might be that Illusion clone instead)

Equipment (3)
1x Batterskull
1x Mortorpod
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

Walkers (3)
1x Sorin, Lord of Innies
2x Jace, TMS

Tutor // Dig (7)
3x Supply // Demand
4x Brainstorm
(Can't support GSZ in this shell. Supply/Demand pitches to Force and does everything you want it to.)

Disruption (21)
2x Divert (If opp has Abrupt Decay)
2x Envelop (if opp has Terminus / Wrath / etc)
2x Counterspell
4x Force of Will (if opp is combo)
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Engineered Plague (tribal aggro lists)
2x Retribution of the Meek (against goyfs and show/n/tell monsters)

Mana Sources (22)

4x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Flood Plains
2x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Swamp
2x Plains
1x Volrath's Stronghold

This deck plays out in two stages. First, it plays out like a Stoneforge control deck. You assemble a mana base on turns 1 and 2, removing or countering your opponent's turn 2 or 3 play, and then try to ride Stoneforge to the win. If this fails, you have an equipment-themed midgame where a bird carrying a sword might be able to seal the deal. If that fails, you try to combo out. Three Mirrorweaves and Supply//Demand should ensure you always have an avenue to the combo if you need to go for it, provided you can last that long.

You can try to deal with spot removal, but wrath effects will just devastate all of your strategies. Since Terminus is a thing, and the game might go late anyway, Spell Pierce isn't good choice for protection here; I'm suggesting Counterspell and Envelop.

The black splash is for Deathrite and, more importantly, for Volrath's Stronghold. This gives you sustain in the late game, after Wastelands have been blown on your somewhat-greedy mana base.

[bruizar]

I think the creature density is too low. 4 out of 14 creatures without them getting removed is asking a lot. I would really remove the birds and replace them for lingering souls. Lingering souls gives you enough bodies to equip.

[MaximumC]

I think the creature density is too low. 4 out of 14 creatures without them getting removed is asking a lot. I would really remove the birds and replace them for lingering souls. Lingering souls gives you enough bodies to equip.

It's 20 creatures, actually, counting Sorin and the Equipment.

EDIT: Okay, 19, but you have Stronghold and Sword for recursion. If I was going to add Lingering Souls, I would trim a Metamorph or two before going to birds, since they carry swords like a champ.

[ahg113]

What are the advantages to playing this deck over a regular U/W deck that has SFM and JtMS in it (the two most reliable wincons I see)?

While I like the concept of the deck, it seems to want to do too much, doing nothing exceptional and not attacking anything in particular.

In your testing:

what observations have you recorded?

what has been the critical turn to win the game?

[Darkenslight]

Quick question: is everyone playing four colors because of Lingering Souls, or is it because you want more options?

Because, quite frankly, you don't have the time that other 3-color decks do. Your fundamental turn is probably going to be turn 4, either way, either through SO MANY CLONES or Mirrorweave tokens. Note that the Mirrorweave version can win on the opponent's turn, which is the most interesting thing.

[ahg113]

Quick question: is everyone playing four colors because of Lingering Souls, or is it because you want more options?

Because, quite frankly, you don't have the time that other 3-color decks do. Your fundamental turn is probably going to be turn 4, either way, either through SO MANY CLONES or Mirrorweave tokens. Note that the Mirrorweave version can win on the opponent's turn, which is the most interesting thing.

I agree with Darkenslight. This is a cute deck. It will win game 1s because people blatantly won't know what's going on, and then it's too late. In game 2, I suggest a Natural Order for Progenitus type deck, and pick some other ports, so when people try to play against biovisionary, you have a different attack plan. Still creature based, still combo, but alternate win condition vs. combat damage. I dunno what this SFM 3/4 color stuff going on is. So fractured, so scattered.

That is unless there are some reasons to believe otherwise.

[djeyjey]

Anyone thought of the Wizards route?

With cards like:

Cursecatcher
Spellstutter Sprite
Snapcaster Mage > the last two giving some more interest to Mask of the Mimic and Cackling Counterpart
Vedalken Aethermage as a tutor
Patron Wizard
Riptide Laboratory

Just looking for a good wizards deck to alter with Biovisionary…

[bruizar]

I would really advise against putting a bunch of clones in your deck that do nothing against some decks. Clones and Biovisionary do nothing on their own. Legacy's power level is way too high for cards that have little to no impact. I don't think you could even get away with running biovisionary+clones in modern or standard. The card that makes it remotely possible to play 1 or 2 Biovisionaries is Mirrorweave. In fact, if Biovisionary was not blue I don't think it would have been playable at all. Right now, it can be fetched with GSZ and pitched to FoW when it is dead. Mirrorweave should replace mass-removal and the deck should focus on abusing Mirrorweave as a value card (copying dark confidants as a pseudo glimpse of nature, shrinking Emrakuls to 0/0 with a germ or 1/1's and then pinging him off with Mortarpod, turning your lingering souls tokens into thragtusks and receiving 3/3's when the opponent blocks or attacks, copying siege-gang commander EOT when opponent is tapped out and then shooting off all his relevant goblins, turning all your lingering souls tokens into mishra's factories eot so that you can ramp into a big turn (miracle entreat?), turning every creature into a mishra's factory and then using wasteland on their guys? (does this work?), turning everything into a hypnotic specter and twisting your opponent's hand with it, copying tombstalker and alphastriking with lingering souls tokens unless he sacks a tombstalker for a token, copying deathrite shaman and eating the yard/shooting snapcaster targets to disable DRS+Snapcaster / deal 8 damage with lingering souls tokens, and ofcourse, using biovisionary to win the game. There are many, many interactions possible with Mirrorweave.

The main interactions imo are:
Sweeper with Germ
Win Condition with Biovisionary
Glimpse with Dark Confidant
Win Condition with Dark Confidant

[MaximumC]

Glimpse with Dark Confidant
Win Condition with Dark Confidant

Did we decide that this works?

[Tempus]

Did we decide that this works?

Went back and read the card again => doesn't work. It says until end of turn and sady not until the begin of the next endstep :(

BTW What about grindy GBW version with a combo finish?


4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Biovisionary
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Mortarpod
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lingering Souls
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Mirrorweave
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Wasteland