[Deck] UR Nivmagus Tempo

[plimplam]

¡ Hi !

First of all, I'm Spanish, so sorry for my english. Lately here, in Europe, is starting to be played a " rogue " deck. It is a tempo deck that tries to abuse Nivmagus elemental and winning with him or with another usefull creatures.

This is one of some lists:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9615&iddeck=70204

In this another link you con see the res of lists playing nivmagus:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=0&nhigh=0&dlow=0&mlow=0&ylow=0&dhigh=0&mhigh=0&yhigh=0&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=&main=nivmagus+elemental&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on

And here is the decklist that I am testing:

Creatures: 11

4 Nivmagus elemental
4 Delver of secrets
2 Guttersnipe
1 Grim lavamancer

Instants: 25

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Flusterstorm
4 gut shot
4 Lightning bolt

Sorceries: 4

3 Gitaxian probe
1 Ponder

Enchantments: 3

3 Clout of the dominus

Lands: 17

4 Island
1 Mountain
2 Volcanic island
4 Scalding tarn
3 Misty rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

2 Cursed totem
1 Pithing needle
2 Reb
3 Spell pierce
3 Blood moon
2 Rough//Thumble
2 Relic of progenitus

Nivmagus elemental:
Is the creature around which the pack is constructed, to resolve one against canadian threshold accompanied with a pair of spells exiled makes their mongooses and tarmogoyfs stay quiet. Against combo puts a very high clock along with flusterstorm, calculating very well wich copies could nivmagus eats. Against control is against what worse can go this creature, for it I choose 5 cards in the main and a few anothers on the side, the apostle's blessing, that also makes antibloquers function, and the clout of the Dominous, simply clever choice. Although nivmagus use to generate card disadvantage, and to counteract this effect I have decided on..

Guttersnipe:
At first I discarded them by their cost, but in testing I really really likes him. By late-mid game is a creature that causes us "card advantage" and becomes a real mass. With a brainstorm on hand and the amount of low cost spells the deck plays, he can take 8 + damage for the oponent in a single turn. As the text says, "cast", the effect resolves although we eat spells out with nivmagus. Hard party.

Delver of secrets:

Every deck has his absurd card, here is ours.

Apostle's blessing:

Protection and evasion in a card by one mana, give me two, thanks.

Gigadrowse:

Someone said tempo? Copys looks well for nivmagus too.

Brainstorm:

For everything else, master card.

Daze:

so, tempo.

Flusterstorm:

Makes our nivmagus a beast, both as a defense and as much as making Nivmagus growing.

Gut shot:

Delvers, mothers, hierarchs, confidants, lackeys, dryads etc. ..

Lightning bolt:

Against combo is better to exile it with nivmagus on the opponent EOT, unless the next attack do lethal damage.

Gitaxian probe:

A wonderful card for this deck, to know how to play your counterspells, to know if is there a clear path for nivmagus, whether or not removal, whether or not to attack the other's mana base ..

Clout of the Dominous:

Inflates the bug and makes him a mongoose, not bad.

Mana:

A typical tempo mana base, but the deck is Blue with splash to red, so It can support basics. I would play the 4 wastelands but .. I am not sure.


Side:

Magus of the moon/Blood moon: I love against canadian, bugs, omnitell ..

Sulfur elemental:

Maverick, lingering souls and such ..

Grim lavamancer:

Support sulfur and go well against tribal ..

Several counterspells.

Relic of Progenitus: Reanimator, Dredge, tarmogoyfs, mongooses, not wearing black hurts me to play Nihil Spellbomb..

[plimplam]

Videos against UWR miracles:

Game 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXNnsrgAlTc

Game 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEeO8YCVGwA

Game 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iQo3mGbne4

[baghdadbob]

That's a pretty sexy list. I wish there was more than 11 kill con's though. :rolleyes:

[Raggedjoe]

Could Kiln Fiend or Dragonaut work here for more killers?

[plimplam]

Thanks a lot. I don't think there's any other better option than that three creatures, and I don't like the fourth copy of guttersnipe becouse of his CMC.
Also I'm thinking about a change in the maindeck and some othors in the sideboard.

MD:
-1 Gitaxian probe + 1 Ponder. That's because of adding the 8th shuffle effect and the "5th" brainstorm.

SB:

3Blood moon
1 Pithing needle
2 Cursed totem
2 Rough//thumble
2 Pyroblast
3 Spell pierce
2 Relic of progenitus


Kiln fiend and wee dragonauts doesn't pass the cut, sometimes you go all in with nivmagus, but that's because his hability is permanent, nit like kiln nir dragonauts. At least, that's my point of view. ^^

[Esper3k]

Could Kiln Fiend or Dragonaut work here for more killers?

As powerful as Kiln Fiend is, Dragonauts might be better because of they can better use Clout - turning them into a 3/5 Shrouded flier is pretty good!

[Greenpoe]

But Dragonauts is a 3-drop, so it competes with Guttersnipe - depends on what you want. Guttersnipe is direct damage so you don't need to worry about blockers and is a 2/2 instead of a 1/3 flier. Dragonauts does pitch to Force, though. Both seem good.

[Esper3k]

But Dragonauts is a 3-drop, so it competes with Guttersnipe - depends on what you want. Guttersnipe is direct damage so you don't need to worry about blockers and is a 2/2 instead of a 1/3 flier. Dragonauts does pitch to Force, though. Both seem good.

Yeah, the 3 drop slot hurts. I didn't see Plimplam running FoW in his list?

[plimplam]

Guttersnipe vs Wee Dragonauts

It' s not card disadvantge.
It couldn't be (X)x1 if they remove the creature.
It wins without enter in the attack phase.
You can answer to removal by making damage.

I don't play FOW's because of what I said about nivmagus. He on itself is card disadvantage ( unless we use flusterstorm/gigadrowse ), so, no more card disadvantage, please. After board you can easely play 13 counterspells. If someone won me in turn one, I extend my hand and congratules him for having perfect hand. I prefer not to run Force here.

[Vacrix]

Boros Charm seems like it could be good. 4 damage worth of reach, Doublestrike to kill opposing Delvers or potentially deal 10 damage turn 2 with your Nivmagus. With Apostle's bless you could even deal the Doublestrike damage unblocked. And then, of course you can safe your team from EE or Deed.



Also, Guttersnipe seems good, but it seems a bit expensive. Snapcaster might be better considering you could recycle Flusterstorms and Gigadrowse and such to pump up the Nivmagus.

[plimplam]

Problem about boros charm is the white mana. One reason of playing this deck is because of it manavase.
And about snapcaster.. If guttersnipe had bever been printed, sure I've posted this list with 3 snapcaster.

[Vacrix]

Indeed. I guess having a solid mana base is better, but if you're already good against Tempo decks with a curve thats mostly 1cc, then how important is it to have a stable mana base? If Loam were a bigger part of the current format then I'd agree with you but with so much Deathrite Shaman, Loam has lost a lot of power. Also, Guttersnipe only considers spells that you cast so you can't get extra 2 damage out of each storm copy. For 3 mana, its far outside the curve, is particularly vulnerable to removal, and isn't usually going to attack. So then, would you say its most useful against decks like Goblins, Elves, Merfolk, etc. And in that case, would it be better as sideboard material?


Also, it seems a single Maze of Ith could give you problems. Maverick can tutor it up with Knight of the Reliquary. I like that Clout of Dominus and Wasteland shore up this problem.

But how does the deck fair against decks like BUG control (the slower control version) and Nic Fit? Flusterstorm/Daze isn't quite as good against them and they have options like Innocent Blood and Deed to wreck your team.


Actually what do you think about Blistercoil Weird? Its another creature to abuse with Clout of Dominus, making it a 3/3 haste shroud, and you can play tricks with your instants and sorceries to make him stronger. Its a more aggressive creature than Guttersnipe and has the ability to untap during combat races.


EDIT:
I look forward to goldfishing this list on Cockatrice. It looks like a lot of fun and has an interesting niche in the Tempo archetype. Maindeck Probes mean you play with more information than the opponent, Gut shots are great against Lackey/Delver/Mom/Thalia/Hierarch, Nivmagus outsizes quite a lot, especially considering you can remove Instants/Sorceries in counterwars, maindeck Flusterstorms are awesome vs. Storm combo (namely Belcher), and Apostle's Blessings/Gigadrowse mean that a giant Nivmagus is going to connect.

However.. how are you doing against ANT/TES? They posit their combo turns with discard, meaning that a low permission density is going to be a problem.


I know you don't really have enough creatures to currently justify this, but what do you think of Unstable Mutation? Considering all the protection you run as well as means to attack unblocked, it could be as much as U for 6 damage (ie. +3, +2, +1 over the course of 3 turns). A flipped Delver on turn 2 with an Unstable mutation is swinging for 6, 5, 4, 3, and thats practically a clock on its own with your reach spells. And Nivmagus is even faster, ie. turn 1 Nivmagus, turn 2, Unstable Mutation, remove one spell, swing for 6 to swing the same as Delver, or remove 2 and swing for 8, 7, 6 for a turn 4 kill.

EDIT 2:
Also.. Gelectrode seems good against decks like Goblins/Elves/Merfolk, hell anything hyper aggressive. Its just as vulnerable as Guttersnipe only its going to be better against Goblins/Elves (namely Elves) than Merfolk. I'd imagine the Elves matchup is atrocious given your permission is near useless, they are faster than you.

Pithing Needle is particularly good against you and Daze/Flusterstorm aren't going to counter it too often. I guess if you drop Nivmagus early then Pithing Needle is less effective since you have so many 0cc.


EDIT 3:
Force of Will has no place in this deck, as plimplam was saying. The card disadvantage is pointless and Flusterstorm is going to be better against combo anyway. However, I still think that Snapcaster is going to be better here than Guttersnipe. Being able to recycle Flusterstorms gives you a much higher virtual permission density against combo decks, especially after you board in your Spell Pierces. Further, it recycles reach, or even a Probe/Gut shot that got used previously without being removed to contribute to Nivmagus, which gives you 1U for a 2/1 that pumps up your Nivmagus +2, or even recycles the Flusterstorms/Gigadrowse for a huge Nivmagus, or your protection spells like Apostles Blessing. Its also works better in the curve. Guttersnipe is just too expensive at 2R for such a hyper aggressive Tempo deck.

[baghdadbob]

Force of Will has no place in this deck.

It's hard to say but... I agree.

[Greenpoe]

Yeah, the 3 drop slot hurts. I didn't see Plimplam running FoW in his list?

Some of the other lists on the council ran Force, and some even ran Misdirection in the MD with Force in the SB. A lot of the lists on there ran Goblin Guide or Vexing Devil as well.

[Esper3k]

This deck looks like a blast to play!

While I always feel naked playing blue without FoW (especially in a deck with such a high blue spell count), Daze + Flusterstorms should be fine at giving us a shot against combo.

I do like the idea of SCM as well especially in combination with Storm spells. It just seems to play so naturally well with Flusterstorm and helps to offset the card disadvantage that Nivmagus causes.

[SirTylerGalt]

I've been a fan of Nivmagus Elemental from day one. Here is the current decklist I'm testing:


4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nivmagus Elemental
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

2 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
3 Spell Pierce

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
1 Searing Blaze
2 Chain Lightning

4 Island
3 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa

SB: 1 Misdirection
SB: 1 Price of Progress
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction


I got a lot of inspiration from syfilisx's version in the U/R Delver thread ( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22676-Deck-U-R-Delver&p=691122&viewfull=1#post691122 ). I think he is right in choosing not to focus on the Nivmagus combo. It's better to add Nivmagus to the U/R Delver shell, rather than play sub-optimal cards such as Gigadrowse and Apostle's Blessing.

While the Nivmagus / Flusterstorm combo is awesome, I find Flusterstorm to be too situational... I hate having a Flusterstorm in hand when my opponent plays a planeswalker... That's why I only play 3 copies, and play Spell Pierce instead.

Grim Lavamancer is boss against Deathrite Shaman. I used to play 4 Nivmagus and 4 Grim Lavamancer, but one of the biggest problems for this deck is Engineered Explosives on 1... Post Gatecrash, I'm interested in trying a white splash, for Boros Charm. Boros Charm is a great answer for Abrupt Decay, E.E., and Pernicious Deed... Maybe we could add Steppe Lynx and play a URw sligh version (like Hanni's).

[plimplam]

The first idea is beeing a tempo deck, in UR burn nivmagus is a bit worst because of the deck isn't made for Nivmagus (too few zero CMC spells for exiling), you don't run wastelands.
And the second idea is to have a solid mana base for winning the tempo mirrors and for adding blood moon to the sideboard, so I think that adding white is not so sweet like it sounds.
Against combo ( storm ) you don't run force, but you have 13 counters and a fast clock like nivmagus is.
Against BUG you have a perfect card in yours sideboards, blood moon, even if the opponent see wastelands un game 1 blood moon enters only against RUG, BUg and randoms decks with duals.
Elf ball is another matchup were you need sideboard, rough and cursed totem ( wirewood, quirion, etc ), and don't forget about 4 gut shots and 4 lightnings MD. Best line of play against elfball is delver + fire.

About Guttersnipe, I were on your point of view 'til I tested it. Is a creature for mide-late game, were players should had used their removal on delvers and nivmagus, there is when guttersnipe enters an take 4-8 final damages ( with lightning hard party ). That's why I run it.
The deck needs too much skill and testing, like tempo in general, is not like UR burn ( not saying that deck doesn't need skill, but not at level of tempo ).

[plimplam]

By the time I'm testing the last sideboard I posted against GW zenith, Esperblade, Miracles, S&T' decks and BUG, I'll say that I prefer this sideboard over the first posted. Someone has any idea concerning side ?

[Esper3k]

By the time I'm testing the last sideboard I posted against GW zenith, Esperblade, Miracles, S&T' decks and BUG, I'll say that I prefer this sideboard over the first posted. Someone has any idea concerning side ?

Do you find the Relics better than say Surgical Extraction? SE plays better with Guttersnipe, Nivmagus, and Flusterstorm...

Also, have you considered Submerges instead of things like Cursed Totem (which I assume is for things like Knight of the Reliquary)?

[plimplam]

As a competent dredge player, I know surgical extraction is the worst card anti grave, the best is nihil spellbomb ( Maybe rest in peace now ), but we don't play black, so relic of pregenitus is the best anti grave card here. Ok, surgical is free, is better with gutternsnipe but, you won't play surgical to take advantage of nivmagus or guttersnipe's hability, you use to hate graveyard.
Another reason people argue for running surgical is beacuse it enters against combo too. In my opinion surgical is just graveyard hate, and you shouldn't take it in against any others match up's.

[Vacrix]

Have you considered splashing for black in a more aggressive build for Death's Shadow? You could play cards like Dismember, you already play Gut Shot, Probe, and Blessing. It might be a nice fat guy that will connect quite often considering Blessing/Gigadrowse.

[plimplam]

I think the stronger point to run this deck is that it doesn't run a third splash. Running it makes you loose the tempo ( rug, bug ) mirror. On the other hand, talking about black is talking about discard, what takes out the best cards against us, abrupt decay and supreme veredict.

[potatodavid]

I have been running a list that runs 4 copies of Pact of the Titan and 1 copy of Pact of Negation. Good results so far. Anyone else try these out yet?

[plimplam]

I do not think that's tge way to follow ( pacts aren't usefull without nivmagus ). I've been testing and i make some changes:

-1 Guttersnipe +1 Lavamancer
-3 Gigadrowse -2 apostle's blessing +4 stifle +1 wasteland

Making the deck more tempo, even, stifle is fucking awesome against stoneforge, enginnered explosives and pernicious deed what really hurt us a lot. Thoughts about adding the full tempo package ??

[Hof]

It can work in an environment with a lot of combo and control, but the plan is kind of weak against aggro decks, I think. I have tried my common Ugr tempo deck with basically 4 mongoose replaced by Nivmagus (and 4 flusterstorm, of course). Early Nivmagus can win some games. The problem is that in the tough aggro matchups (say, Jund or Deadguy Ale) your topdeck mode becomes truly terrible. Imagine having an empty board and in topdeck mode, you are going to be drawing Nivmagus 1/2 when you want to be drawing Mongoose 3/3 and Goyf 4/5. That is why I think Nivmagus is not to be regarded a pure tempo creature but needs to be regarded a little more combo'ish. I hope that makes sense. I like Nivmagus a lot and will continue to experiment with it.