Blue and Taxes

[bruizar]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss a blue variation of the Death & Taxes archetype. The current list is just my first draft and is up for improvement. The reason to play this deck is because I believe that this deck can control the game better than death and taxes due to Jace, Brainstorm Snapcaster, Clique and Curfew. In fact, I believe that most of the blue creatures outclass the those from Death and Taxes. I hope some of the guys from the Death and Taxes thread can chime in and help build this deck to become on par or better than death and taxes.

Blue & Taxes


//Maindeck
//3CC Creatures - 6

2 Flickerwisp
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Mangara of Corondor


//2CC Creatures - 12

2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Gilded Drake
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Spellstutter Sprite


//Utility - 9

4 Aether Vial
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull


//Instants - 17

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Curfew
1 Saving Grasp
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell


//Land - 20

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
2 Karakas
1 Riptide Laboratory


//Sideboard and other maindeck options

//Graveyard Hate

Relic of Progenitus
Rest in Peace


//Removal

Disenchant
Path to Exile
Detention Sphere
Oblivion Ring


//hatebears
Aven Mindcensor
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Jotun Grunt
Meddling Mage


//creatures
Trinket Mage + Toolbox

Squadron Hawk
Geist of Saint Traft
Stonecloaker


//counters
Flusterstorm
Spell Snare
Spell Pierce
Counterspell
Judge’s Familiar


Other
Umezawa's Jitte
Sword of Feast and Famine
Stifle
Curfew #4



SCD

Spellstutter Sprite - Vial with Spellstutter Sprite is very nice. We have 6 Faeries in the deck, so it will usually counter spells of 1 or 2 CC. Has some overlap with Snapcaster Mage, but you can't solely rely on Snapcaster Mage. It works great with Aether Vial and can be reused with Flickerwisp, Curfew (bounce the threat, counter it on the way down), Saving Grasp (Potentially get 2 extra counters from SSS), Jace the Mindsculptor and Riptide Laboratory (Wizard).

Gilded Drake is especially good with Saving Grasp, but it's also very useful with Curfew, Flickerwisp and Jace, the Mindsculptor. Helps the show and tell match-up too, which should be a favorable matchup with 3 Curfews and 2 Gilded Drake's maindeck.

Snapcaster Mage is very strong with Curfew. Imagine playing the following sequence: Swords to Plowshares, Snapcaster Mage Flashback Swords to Plowshares, Curfew bounce Snapcaster Mage and a threat, Snapcaster Mage Flashback curfew bounce Snapcaster Mage and a threat. You've removed 4 threats and you still have an open Snapcaster Mage, ready to cast a brainstorm or another Swords to Plowshares or a counter. Flickerwisp also interacts favorably.

Vendilion Clique is also very strong with Curfew. Being able to bounce a threat and Vendilion Clique, and then Cliqueing the threat away is very strong. It's easy to clique lock with Riptide, Karakas and Jace, but the occasional recycle through Saving Grasp and Curfew definitely help. Flickerwisp also interacts favorably, acting as a clone of clique without being Legendary, which shores up the decks clock and adds to disruption.

Stoneforge Mystic. I opted to play only 2 Stoneforge Mystics because I can bounce or blink Stoneforge Mystic anyway and I don't want to clutter my hand with a bunch of SFM's. Jitte is the go-to target anyway. I might replace Batterskull with a sword but I'm not sure yet.

Mangara of Corondor. Interacts favoriably with bounce, blink and mostly Karakas and Riptide Laboratory.

I haven't covered all the other cards yet but right now, I believe selecting the proper creature base and the selection of counterspells is the most important thing. The hardest part is ensuring we have enough creatures for Aether Vial while keeping plenty of room for Jace and instants. I included a list of spells that are worth considering but are currently not in the maindeck. Right now there are a couple cards too much that need to be shaved from the list to bring it back to 60, and I would like your opinion on this.

[lebarion]

I like the idea - actually its the first "implementation" of D+T with blue that keeps my attention for some time.
But I think your list runs too few creature. I believe there must be at least 20 for vial to be effective.
I'd suggest Venser, too, even though he's a bit too expensive with his 4 CMC.

[Barook]

Interesting deck idea - I like it.

The Geist interaction with Karakas and Vial in play seems cute. Should be worth testing, especially if you throw some Swords of X and Y in there.

Why only 2 SFM? You still need to find one first. 4 BS with only 4 fetchlands won't help you that much. I think 3 is a better number.

The Venser suggestion sounds reasonable as well.

[tsabo_tavoc]

20 Lands and only 11 from them producing colour are NOT enough. D&T should not rely on Vial to function.
Also, I don't think the deck can support Jace, nor is Spellstutter Sprite good enough here.

The Drake and Curfew tricks are nice, but only deal with Aggro. However, D&T in mono-white is quite good against Aggro.
The counter suite helps against Combo, but you can no longer opt for Thalia.

[kiblast]

20 Lands and only 11 from them producing colour are NOT enough. D&T should not rely on Vial to function.
Also, I don't think the deck can support Jace, nor is Spellstutter Sprite good enough here.



Well UW Tempo used to run 17 lands ( including 3 Wastelands 1 Karakas ) and it worked smoothly with 2 Aether Vial and 4 Weathered Wayfarer (the guy wins games by himself if unanswered vs. a lot of decks), which I would play at least as a 2 of in here as he fetches your singleton Riptide Lab and Karakas, Wasteland and Port to keep putting pressure on your opponents manabase... Also remember the interaction between Jotun recycling Wastelands and Wayfarer fetching Wastelands!

Moreover, why would you want 4 Snapcasters in here instead of something that actually produces a clock like Serra Avenger or Jotun Grunt? How do you win games considering that hitting 4 mana to cast JTMS is going to be extremely difficult and your only wincon is a Batterskull (which is easily outsized by the first Goyf or Kotr or Tombstalker) ?

Saving Grasp is some hot tech, but isn't Mother of Runes plain better? I get all the tricks between Drakes, SSS, Snapcasters and Saving Grasp/Curfew, but apart from the cuteness how are you going to establish a decent board position just by bouncing and replaying a bunch of 1/1 critters?

Edit: Did you think about the interaction between Flickerwisp and O-Ring, considering that you can have an overpowered version which is Detention Sphere?

[morgan_coke]

I'd pull the ports, two of the Jaces, and the Flickerwisps, and add in 2 more fetches, 2 mutavaults, and 2 more color producing lands (plains and island?), a sword, and a stoneforge mystic.

I'd also look for ways to include either weathered wayfarer or kitchen finks.

[nedleeds]

I tried this last spring. Vial on 3. Geist. Karakas is truly living the dream.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-DO-NOT-TRY-TO-SELL-IN-HERE-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=630568&viewfull=1#post630568

[bruizar]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the responses so far. Some interesting perspectives.

Jace
I agree that 4 mana for a Jace might be a little bit much for this deck. Perhaps we can cut it down to 1 Jace, so we at least have access to him although not in multiples. His -1 is extra strong in this deck. Perhaps we should cut jace completely but man, playing blue and not playing Jace sounds blasphemous to me.

Brainstorm & Fetch
I also agree that 4 fetch is too little with 4 brainstorm. We can free up a slot there, since brainstorm is at its best later in the game and we don't need to see it early.

2 Stoneforge Mystics
The reason for the low amount of SFM's is because they don't do much after resolving an Umezawa's Jitte. I think Batterskull is only worth it if you are running 3 or 4 SFM's, but with 2 SFM's I might be inclined to just run 2 Umezawa's Jitte, not SFM and no Batterskull. I haven't made up my mind yet about this.

Weathered Wayfarer
I don't have much experience with this card. I know you can activate it in response to fetch or in response to wasteland but I have little actual playtime with the card. It seems that it is not an autoinclude in regular D&T.



Moreover, why would you want 4 Snapcasters in here instead of something that actually produces a clock like Serra Avenger or Jotun Grunt? How do you win games considering that hitting 4 mana to cast JTMS is going to be extremely difficult and your only wincon is a Batterskull (which is easily outsized by the first Goyf or Kotr or Tombstalker) ?

Saving Grasp is some hot tech, but isn't Mother of Runes plain better? I get all the tricks between Drakes, SSS, Snapcasters and Saving Grasp/Curfew, but apart from the cuteness how are you going to establish a decent board position just by bouncing and replaying a bunch of 1/1 critters?

Snapcasters control the board better than any of the other creatures. Serra Avenger is a 3/3 with evasion. It dies to bolt, decay and plowshares and has no comes into play effect. Jotun Grunt doesn't play very nice against the entire field. It's great against some decks, and I would definitely consider it as a sideboard card, but I'm not sure why this is better than Batterskull or Geist of Saint Traft. Geist of Saint Traft is the card that I originally had as the beater, but I cut it from the main because it doesn't add utility. However, because the clock is so quick and because I have enough ways to control the board, I think adding Geists to the main is a good idea. There are plenty of ways to save the Geist during an attack, and it gives me a 4/4 flyer on offense every turn. Mother of Runes is good, but it serves an entirely different purpose. Mother of Runes doesn't give me new comes into play triggers and it doesn't give me tempo by forcing my opponent to recast his threats, tying up his mana for board development. Also, being able to bounce SSS and recast it provides more tempo because you can delay his development even more. I'm not sure if SSS is good enough though, I need to test it before I make that conclusion but I like the fact that its a Counterspell that doesn't require itself to sacrifice.



The Drake and Curfew tricks are nice, but only deal with Aggro. However, D&T in mono-white is quite good against Aggro.
The counter suite helps against Combo, but you can no longer opt for Thalia.
Curfew also bounces Spellstutter Sprite or Snapcaster Mage for counters and brainstorm in the combo matchups game 1. Also, most of the combo decks are SnT variants, which Gilded Drake and Curfew are super good against. I originally planned to make Thalia a sideboard card and perhaps ethersworn canonist too.



I tried this last spring. Vial on 3. Geist. Karakas is truly living the dream.

Can you tell me more about your experiences with Geist compared to Serra Avenger which you also ran? And about the 4th brainstorm instead of 3 brainstorms as well as the manabase. (Lack of wasteland and port). Also want to know how the 2 Jotun Grunts were and why you didnt play flickerwisp. I'm not sure how the rulings go but can't you blink the Geist to prevent the token from self destructing? I'm not sure if you can blink the token because afaik tokens don't return but I'm not sure. Also, how easy was it for you to cast the lone elspeth? That would give us some insight to both Jace and Venser's viability.

Regarding Stifle
If the plan is to stunt mana development and tie up resources, shouldn't we play stifles for their fetch lands? We have Snapcaster's too and we can use the stifle to counter the Geist token exile as well. Thoughts?



I like the idea - actually its the first "implementation" of D+T with blue that keeps my attention for some time.
But I think your list runs too few creature. I believe there must be at least 20 for vial to be effective.
I'd suggest Venser, too, even though he's a bit too expensive with his 4 CMC.

Thanks, good advice. I'm leaning towards Geist of Saint Traft for the extra's. Venser sure has some hot tricks. We need to see how reliably we can hit 4 mana or put a vial on 4 (vial on 4 with Karakas or Riptide Laboratory would be pretty sweet) at taxing your opponent's mana.

[nedleeds]

Well, the slope gets slippery. Running 4 x Brainstorm means alleviating the biggest issue with DNT which are:

- duplicate legends
- drawing too many vials
- top deck mode with no way to pull out of the mid game

If you commit to brainstorm and now how the card works you need 10'ish shuffle effects (~7 fetches, 4 SFM). So now you have a shakier mana base and can't run 7-10 colorless lands.

Geist I think is an aggro approach, with Geist and Karakas out and a vial on 3 you can attack bounce Geist from getting blocked and fireblast them with the angel. Grunts, Mindcensors and Images were likely a product of my local scene at the time. But it's worth noting with fetches and brainstorms you might be able to feed grunt yourself a little easier. If I were to try wasteland and fetches it'd be hard to resist playing Weathered Wayfarer. He's pretty retarded when he activates a couple of times. Maybe pack Dazes/Spell Pierces/Diverts for some on the play game vs. combo.

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
3 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Jötun Grunt
2 Flickerwisp
3 Karakas
4 Tundra
4 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 2 Silence
SB: 3 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 3 Daze
SB: 2 Divert

[Antonius]

I like where this deck is going, but I, like others here, think that you have way too many non-creature spells. Vial, swords and brainstorm are all too good to not run. Jitte is essential to playing small dude beatdown. But beyond that?

Thalia is another card that is, IMO, just way too good to not run and another reason to minimize your non-creature spells. Moreover, has anyone not noticed the interaction between Thalia and Spellstutter Sprite? That shit is hotter than a solar panel and IMO if you want to come up with a deck concept that's spicier than just Stock DNT with a couple of brainstorms and tundras jammed into it, I think that's the sort of interaction you should be trying to exploit. My first draft on that would go something like this:

4 Mutavault
2 Riptide Lab
2 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
2 Plains
1 Island

4 Vial
4 Swords
4 Brainstorm
2 Jitte

4 Mother
4 Sprite
3 Thalia
3 Serra Avenger
1 Jotun Gunt
2 Stoneforge
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Restoration Angel

I know, Thalia without mana denial seems weird but she's in there to get your sprites to mana parity against your opponent's noncreature spells while you build up to a board position of inevitability, and lock them out with recurring sprite, blinking mangara or both.

[bruizar]

I appreciate the feedback so far. I noticed the strong resemblance to Death & Taxes and Maverick in your lists. More specifically, the inclusion of Mother of Runes, Weathered Wayfarer, Serra Avenger and Jotun Grunt. Specifically for Jotun Grunt and Serra Avenger, I don't think they add enough to the deck.

Serra Avenger
Unlike Geist of Saint Traft, Serra Avenger dies to Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay. The clock is a lot slower too. I understand that it's a great card with equipment due to blocking and attacking at the same time, but it doesn't do anything except provide a clock which Geist of Saint Traft does better imo. Sure, when you are facing a Tarmogoyf you are not going to be happy with Geist, but this deck should be able to deal with creatures.

Jotun Grunt
I have a hard time justifying this card as a maindeck inclusion. I get that it's really nice to be able to pressure RUG's graveyard while staying out of Lightning Bolt and Mongoose range. I can also see how its nice to be able to play with Grunts and Rest in Peace postboard instead of relying entirely on your sideboard for graveyard hate. Brainstorm can put him back too. I am still undecided about Grunt.

Weathered Wayfarer
I would play this if my plan would be to rely heavily on taxing mana.

Mother of Runes
I am not sure if this card is needed at the moment. I realize the card is good, but I think there are higher impact cards available.


Instead of taxing through Thalia, Wasteland and Rishadan Port, I was thinking about taxing through Patron Wizard and Spellstutter Sprite. We could still play with Weathered Wayfarer and Thalia, but Patron Wizard serves as a virtual rishadan port for every wizard you draw. One of the alternative avenues with Patron Wizard could be along these lines:

3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Patron Wizard
3 Stoneforge Mystic <- clock
2 Geist of Saint Traft <- clock
2 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben