[Deck] Jund

[Kihashi]

At the GP, I ran 3x Golgari Charm and 1x Edict in the board. That seemed to be enough for true name, but I also did not see it much even against decks that I thought would be running it.

I also foudn the RUG Delver matchup to be incredibly annoying, moreso because people were telling me I should havea good matchup vs it. I think that is one matchup that I will be playtesting much more in the future.

[razvan]

RUG delver WAS a good match-up early on. I am not sure what has changed, but it did.

I think it's also more that they play Stifles, which they didn't when I first played. If you, for a fact, know they do not have Stifle, it becomes a lot easier.

Their super-openers can still be incredibly tough to deal with, if they curve out perfectly and you can't deal with their threats, while they Wasteland you and Daze/Snare your stuff, but without Stifle, being able to hit your land drops can very quickly get you out of their hands.

Also, winning the die roll seems to be the key. Game 1, opening on Deathrite Shaman is virtually unbeatable, because they need to answer it or just about lose. The deck is very good at dealing 20 damage, and every damage after is a whole new game.

So, win the die roll, hope they don't have Stifle, resolve a Deathrite Shaman and side in Golgari Charms :)

[Kl'rt]

I also found the RUG Delver matchup to be incredibly annoying, moreso because people were telling me I should have a good matchup vs it. I think that is one matchup that I will be playtesting much more in the future.


I feel exactly the same way. Tested against Canadian Thresh the other day and lost around five games in a row. I had a couple free mulligans too. The C Thresh deck did run Stifles.

[ironclad8690]

I feel exactly the same way. Tested against Canadian Thresh the other day and lost around five games in a row. I had a couple free mulligans too. The C Thresh deck did run Stifles.

Did you feel as though you were on the defensive the entire time? I have found that when playing an aggressive punishing fire deck such as jund or punishing maverick there will be a point at which you "stabilize" and they are unable to eek through those last points of damage.

I also have 2 choke in my sideboard, though I am on maverick and not jund, not sure if choke is commonplace in jund decks. Choke will give you free wins vs tempo pretty often.

[Flopnuts72]

I have had choke in the sb and It can help, I think the main plan at beating rug/ tempo is to play around stifle and daze. Also fetch basics when you can I'll use my fetch on the play and get a basic to set up plays down the road even is I have nothing to play. Make sure to save decay for goyf, lili for goose, and fire for delver. Best case scenario but I play 4 of each.

On another note what are people doing against elves? I am testing 4 grafdiggers cage to see if it helps then ill cut down if needed. I have dulge in the sb as well and have been testing golgari charm md and am liking it!!! A lot!! With all the TNN running around its funny when they are shocked I play it md. Also it's a boss on mom late game where bolt you need it t1!

[anakyn]

I'd say the Canadian matchup should be slightly favorable for us, something like 55-45%.
While it's not true it's a "great" matchup like someone keeps saying, it's still good enough for Jund to have the edge.

The main issue is experience and knowing what/how to board IMHO.

I found myself boarding out discard most of the time: someone keeps Tourach in when he's on the play, but Divert can just completely wreck us so I prefer not to run this risk. Also they play Brainstorm, so discard tends to be less effective anyway.
There was a time when I boarded out Confidants instead of Hymns, but I changed my mind because an early Bob is a threat they must answer somehow, otherwise our card advantage becomes too strong with all the answers we pack.
Also bring in more removal if you got it, REB/Pyro of course, and any form or graveyard hate.
If you have space and you play them in the sideboard, a single Chains of Mephistopheles can seal the deal if you land it when Canadian is in topdeck mode, but maybe it's just too cute.

The experience factor:
- always try to play around Stifle: fetch on your turn if they're tapped out, fetch on their upkeep otherwise, keep REB/Pyro to counter the Stifle
- don't run into Wasteland if you can: fetch for basics in the first turns
- you can't possibly play around Daze all the time, because if they start strong you have to do something or just die. But I'd try to bait Daze on your creatures, so maybe the coast will be clear for your removal. In other words, I think removal > creatures in this matchup
- play defensive: NEVER try to race them, try to stabilize in the mid game instead
- try to save Decays for Goyfs; use burn on Delver if you can choose which removal to play
- keep in mind that their best threat vs Jund is not Goyf nor Delver, it's Mangoose: you'll lose way more games to Mangoose than to Delver/Goyf, mainly because you have lots of cards to deal with Goyf/Delver, but realistically only Liliana/Goyf (and Deathrite to some extent) to deal with Mangoose. Also: your best answer (Decay) isn't available for Mangoose, and both Liliana and Goyf are vulnerable (to Pierce / Stifle / Submerge), and that's why I play 4 Bloodbraids in game 2&3: in addition to the card advantage they provide, they also trade with Mangoose
- sticking a Liliana in the mid/late game should be game over, so protect her with any means possible: for example, if you have REB/Pyro and Liliana in your hand, I'd wait to have a red mana open when trying to resolve Liliana, that way you can react to a Pierce / Daze / Stifle.

The point is: they HAVE to slow you down because Jund has plenty of removal for their threats and has a far more powerful mid/late game. And they WILL slow you down.
Just try not to be slowed too much, and bait their counters on your less valuable resources.

If they have the perfect hand they will win anyways, but that's the same for almost any deck facing Canadian.

[LEH]

I'm a big fan of Surgical Extraction effects against Canadian. Extracting any one of their threats turns the MU into a one-sided battle. Not to mention, if you manage to extract their Tropical Islands, well... they don't like that one bit. Surgical is a must answer card for them, so they need to counter it or they lose and countering it puts them heavily on the back foot against us as it means that their disruption is being used to defend them rather than disrupt us - the fact that it is essentially free to cast for us means that it plays around Daze and, well it's just fun to see their face when you cast it.

[Kihashi]

Anakyn: Thanks for the advice! I will be sure to keep that in mind the next time I am testing the delver matchup. No one seems to play it at my shop though, so I will have to test against it outside of tourneys.


I'm a big fan of Surgical Extraction effects against Canadian. Extracting any one of their threats turns the MU into a one-sided battle. Not to mention, if you manage to extract their Tropical Islands, well... they don't like that one bit. Surgical is a must answer card for them, so they need to counter it or they lose and countering it puts them heavily on the back foot against us as it means that their disruption is being used to defend them rather than disrupt us - the fact that it is essentially free to cast for us means that it plays around Daze and, well it's just fun to see their face when you cast it.

Why not run Extirpate instead then? I know there are a few matchups where Surgical is better, but it always bothered me that every list I looked at used surgical extraction without really explaining why they chose it over Extirpate. The choice doesn't seem that obvious to me. Am I missing something? Obviously, playing for free is pretty good, but I found split second to be pretty valuable vs. decks like reanimator and delver.

[Tormod]

Some folks are telling me Jund is poorly positioned right now, I just thought I would bring this question up to the thread for some good discussion. Because to me it seems that Jund has all the tool to fight the meta.

I haven't been playing Jund so I'm asking THE SOURCE

[LEH]

Anakyn: ... Why not run Extirpate instead then? I know there are a few matchups where Surgical is better, but it always bothered me that every list I looked at used surgical extraction without really explaining why they chose it over Extirpate. The choice doesn't seem that obvious to me. Am I missing something? Obviously, playing for free is pretty good, but I found split second to be pretty valuable vs. decks like reanimator and delver.

Extirpate is a perfectly fine choice too. I just find that the ability to cast Extraction for free fits better with me as I tend to tap out a lot, it also bates out counterspells sometimes which can be useful. Although, sometimes it gets countered when you depend on it sticking, which can be annoying so it's very much a personal preference slot really. I was just mentioning that it was a useful card vs Can Thresh.


Some folks are telling me Jund is poorly positioned right now, I just thought I would bring this question up to the thread for some good discussion. Because to me it seems that Jund has all the tool to fight the meta.

I haven't been playing Jund so I'm asking THE SOURCE

I don't know about other metas but it's fine for mine. I've heard the same, I guess it depends on how much combo your meta is seeing. Show and Tell and combo heavy metas will automatically be a terribad environment for Jund, but, I do my best to acknowledge this in my main and SB by securing up these MUs as much as possible. I run 4x Thoughtseize and 4x Inqusition of Kozilek main as I like the information they give and IoK is just much easier to cast than Hymn to Tourach when I tend to need my disruption. I also run 2x Pyroblast, 2x Red Elemental Blast and 4x Duress in my SB so I do as well as Jund can do vs combo. Obviously, if my meta was predominantly combo I'd pick up another deck but Jund has a lot of answers for nearly every deck I tend to face and I'm familiar with the deck so I tend to play well with it.

[Flopnuts72]

I do think Jund is well positioned in the meta still! This is the list I have been running.

Counts : 60 main / 12 sideboard

Creatures:15
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells:22
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm* testing
3 Hymn to Tourach/inquisition/duress
4 Punishing Fire
1 Sylvan Library
4 Liliana of the Veil

Lands:23
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:15
4 Grafdigger's Cage*testing
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Golgari Charm
4 Slaughter Games*testing/pyroblast/phyrexian revoker/needle/more discard
3 toxic dulge

The charms have been good md for me so far. I have adjusted to the TNN craze. I'm still trying to turn the tide on the elves match, but haven't faced them since I have made these changes. In the decks to beat I think we have some decent matchups.
Rug, slightly in our favor
Patriot, can be difficult pre board dulge and grudge do work sb and give u the advantage
Shardless bug, well we kill that deck
Sneak show, is not good for us
Mono blue s&t, this is probably in there favor but I have beat this deck more often than sneak show the charms are good and so is discard
Elves, again I'm trying to turn it in our favor but they are vary resilient. Some how we need to apply pressure and still disrupt them.
Miracles, Is in our favor just do your best at playing fast cuz this game can go to time. Slaughter games kills them name entreat and just laugh after!
D&T, this match can be rough,but I think with the golgari charms in response to there ports it can be favorable. Or at least even.
Then there are other decks we kill like rock, goblins,maverick.
I do think we have some decent matchups and this deck is a good choice in the meta.

[razvan]

There are a few things I would like to say to your decklist.

Golgari Charm maindeck is interesting, but keep in mind, it hurts our Dark Confidants. HOWEVER, the other 2 modes (and the -1/-1 if necessary) are excellent. It's not the worst card to play. Lack of Lightning Bolt is probably bad.

Lots of discard makes it good vs. combo. You can always stack it up, and with enough of it, combo becomes a fine match-up. Having Charms to take care of Leylines is good too.

The sideboard, however, is a mess.

I do not know how great Cages would be, especially not four of them. It doesn't help against RUG Delver, and it still allows Dredge to dredge. It does help against Elves (pretty hilariously so). But 4 might be too many.

Same for Toxic Deluge. I often use 1 Damnation or 1 Deluge in the SB, but we are a creature deck. Mass removal is what they do to us.

Finally, Slaughter Games is bad. It is very very slow (turn 3 at the earliest), and quite often won't do anything. Most combo decks run more than one avenue to victory (even Omniscience can hard-cast Dream Halls).

[Flopnuts72]

First off I read this tread so I won't go down the bolt argument. ; ) I know you love the card and for good reason it's solid! I also understand slaughter games is slow it might not be good enough, and if I was going to a GP tomorrow I probably wouldn't brining it. It probably be would be more like this.

Sideboard:15
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
4 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Golgari Charm
2 Toxic dulge

When I am testing sb cards I like to start with the full set to see how effective it is. Then I cut down or completely if I don't like it. In the case of grafdiggers cage and dredge let them dredge all day! (I have a friend that is a good dredge player that play against at least every other week for the past 3years)That means they are not getting any removal for the cage. Then they need to "play magic" and draw cards. unless it's in there hand then you can just discard it. I think cage is nice a give you time to sat up against them! Also cage can stop past in flames which is nice! In the case of slaughter games the card is slow, and might not make the cut. But it has done a good job in my testing so far. In any combo match your going to need to curve out on your hate spells and have some luck in order to win. T1 Thoughtseize/duress/inquisition, t2 hym/goyf/bob/golgari charm, t3 liliana, t4 slaughter/bloodbraid can put them away. In the mono blue show and tell game it takes them longer to assemble there combo and it gives you time to cast slaughter games. Use discard and charms early then Name omniscience or enter the infinite with slaughter games and watch them struggle. Slaughter has won me the mirror match as well name punishing fire goyf ect... It kills miricles where you will have time to cast it! It probably isn't good enough against sneak show and storm unless it gets help from your other cards. Toxic dulge does hit your guys but you can play around that a bit with goyf being toughness being higher than others and not overextending. Plus our deck has good card quality to come back from a wipe! Plus wipe with a liliana on board and that can be gg. I like the toxic dulge because I hate hex proof ie. Geist/mongoose plus I have used it on a spaghetti monster in a real game and moped up after with scavenging ooze.

[r3dd09]

My buddy (Cory Teran) is currently in the finals for the scg open. Go watch him on stream.

[Tormod]

My buddy (Cory Teran) is currently in the finals for the scg open. Go watch him on stream.

I'm learning a lot watching him play. He plays Jund like a control deck, its awesome.

[lyracian]

I'm learning a lot watching him play. He plays Jund like a control deck, its awesome.
Yes; shame he had to mull to five in the third round. He bashed up the RUG decks really well.

[r3dd09]

The interesting thing is he has very little experience playing legacy. Ill ask if he can pop in here to answer some questions on his unique style of playing.

[Tormod]

Yes; shame he had to mull to five in the third round. He bashed up the RUG decks really well.

There was the small misplay with golgari charm game 2, that he certainly would have won if he cast on his own turn while his opponent was tapped out. But still an amazing performance.

one thing that confused me, was up until top 8, on cam he would fetch basics as his first land, but his last games 3 he fetched duals first. why the change?

[BVB09]

Has anyone checked the 5th place decklist?
It features a Sylvan Basilisk, was that a typing error? I imagine it should be a Sylvan Library, but Basilisk kills TNN, so who knows
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=61492

[lyracian]

Has anyone checked the 5th place decklist?
It features a Sylvan Basilisk, was that a typing error? I imagine it should be a Sylvan Library, but Basilisk kills TNN, so who knows
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=61492
Danyul said here that is is not a typeo - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27102-Would-you-like-to-see-True-Name-Nemesis-gone/page28
Apparantly it was chosen as being able to attack past TNN while being immune to Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay. It certainly has a unique ability but I would have thought Tombstalker would have fulfilled the same role and would generally be cheaper to cast...

EDIT: As per next post aparantly it was a Libary; will be funny to see anyone actually plays the Basilik in a list now...

[danyul]

It's a Sylvan Library. I apologize for the confusion. Carry on!

[Kihashi]

I am assuming we can find the archived broadcast on the twitch channel? Does anyone know if they export footage to youtube? Twitch only keeps archives for a couple days now.

[ironclad8690]

I am assuming we can find the archived broadcast on the twitch channel? Does anyone know if they export footage to youtube? Twitch only keeps archives for a couple days now.

Here is the link:

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/487666410 skip to around 13:56 or so to see the jund vs rug match, and a little further for the patriot jund match

[Myelectronicdays]

Yes; shame he had to mull to five in the third round. He bashed up the RUG decks really well.

would love to get his input on the forum. I do love his style of play with the deck.

[Field_Marshal]

Hello. Can someone please answer me (before I end up in a hospital from a stroke, or heart attack due to my constant enraging) what the heck can someone do against sneak and show decks? I am literally ready to pound the wall with my laptop after being 0-X against it at cockatrice... What is the solution? 15 cards in the sideboard? tweaking the MB? What?

[Tormod]

Hello. Can someone please answer me (before I end up in a hospital from a stroke, or heart attack due to my constant enraging) what the heck can someone do against sneak and show decks? I am literally ready to pound the wall with my laptop after being 0-X against it at cockatrice... What is the solution? 15 cards in the sideboard? tweaking the MB? What?

What are you running in your SB?

REBs + Pithing Needles are good. If you have a real problem Ensnaring Bridge maybe your answer. I don't play a lot of Jund but those have been my answers.

[Papu]

Hello guys... im new in Jund world :P

But i need know, how is the Jund in a field full of combos??

My meta have:

RUG / BURG / UWR
Esper
S&T
Storm
High Tide <- 1
Omnihall <- 3 or more
Reanimate <- 2

Thanks!

[o_boogie]

@papu

Generally speaking, Jund doesn't have a very good combo matchup so you may struggle in your meta.

What is your sideboard? Since your matchup against fair decks is already pretty good, you could load up your sideboard with combo hate such as more discard, surgical extraction, chains of mephistopheles, thorn of amethyst, karakas + crop rotation, ensnaring bridge, ashen rider, etc.

Good luck.

[Papu]

@papu

Generally speaking, Jund doesn't have a very good combo matchup so you may struggle in your meta.

What is your sideboard? Since your matchup against fair decks is already pretty good, you could load up your sideboard with combo hate such as more discard, surgical extraction, chains of mephistopheles, thorn of amethyst, karakas + crop rotation, ensnaring bridge, ashen rider, etc.

Good luck.

@boogie

My sideboard is
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyroblast
1 REB
2 Duress
1 Life from the Loam
1 Massacre

I have not tested it, but I believe it will be effective. My main will 8 discard cards + liliana, sometimes my opponent is left with no cards in hand.
But I need more tips on how to win the Show and Tell and Omnihalls.

Thank you!

[o_boogie]

@papu

The Omnihalls matchup is tough from my experience since they run Islands shutting off Wasteland and smart players will Brainstorm in response to your discard spells hiding the good stuff. I have also played against some builds where they side in Leyline of Sanctity which shuts off all your discard except for Liliana's +1. The key here is to just get them on an early clock since they are a bit slower than other combo and try and get them hellbent with discard. If you could remove one of their discarded combo pieces with Surgical that is real nice. Dream Halls affects both players, so you can use its ability to deploy threats without tapping your mana; this allows you to hold up REB/Pyroblast mana.

Your sideboard looks pretty solid. My only observation is you appear a bit light on cards that removes problematic enchantments (e.g., Leyline of Sanctity, Sneak Attack, Omniscience, etc.) I would consider adding any number of Krosan Grip or Golgari Charm or Maelstrom Pulse to help. You may also want to consider changing your Surgicals into Extirpates since this effect is one of the best weapons Jund has against combo and getting a Surgical countered kinda sucks.

The strategy against Sneak and Show is pretty similar to the one against Omnihalls. Wasteland can help here to keep them off red mana or Sol lands. Getting your opponent hellbent is key since if they Show and Tell in a threat you can just Diabolic Edict it or deploy Liliana and make them sacrifice it. Some builds of Sneak and Show run Pyroclasm which kills every creature in your deck except Goyf. You may want to consider Golgari Charm since it can blow up Sneak Attack or regenerate your creatures after a Pyroclasm.

[Final Fortune]

With the omni-presence of TNN and SB Golgari Charms does anyone else think we should be removing a set of Dark Confidents and adding a set of Sylvan Libraries instead? I really dislike having to SB out my card advanage engine when I SB in my spot removal, and even tho' we lose a bear we gain the possibility of playing Tombstalker(s) instead. I'm really reaching the point where I just want to cut Bloodbraid Elf and Dark Confident entirely for being shitty sources of card advantage attached to bears and only use Liliana of the Veil and Sylvan Library as my card advantage engines with either Xenagos and/or Tombstalkers delivering the kill.

Something like evergreen/r makes a lot of sense to me right now;

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sylvan Library
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain

where Tombstalker seems amazing for being able to lower the curve, reduce the number of mana sources in the deck and increase the amount of reach. I'm preferring Chain Lightning to Punishing Fire at the moment because SB Golgari Charms have taken over the mass removal roll vs Elves, Goblins, Affinity and Death&Taxes while Chain Lightning removes Deathrite Shaman and Delver of Secrets faster in order to mana screw the opponent or keep your life total high(er) for Sylvan Library to Ancestral Recall and then turn into a Sensei's Divining Top with a comfortable life total that can be supplemented with Deathrite Shaman activations.

I find myself being able to switch between beat down and control pretty effectively as needed.

[LEH]

With the omni-presence of TNN and SB Golgari Charms does anyone else think we should be removing a set of Dark Confidents and adding a set of Sylvan Libraries instead? I really dislike having to SB out my card advanage engine when I SB in my spot removal, and even tho' we lose a bear we gain the possibility of playing Tombstalker(s) instead. I'm really reaching the point where I just want to cut Bloodbraid Elf and Dark Confident entirely for being shitty sources of card advantage attached to bears and only use Liliana of the Veil and Sylvan Library as my card advantage engines with either Xenagos and/or Tombstalkers delivering the kill.

Something like evergreen/r makes a lot of sense to me right now;

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sylvan Library
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain

where Tombstalker seems amazing for being able to lower the curve, reduce the number of mana sources in the deck and increase the amount of reach. I'm preferring Chain Lightning to Punishing Fire at the moment because SB Golgari Charms have taken over the mass removal roll vs Elves, Goblins, Affinity and Death&Taxes while Chain Lightning removes Deathrite Shaman and Delver of Secrets faster in order to mana screw the opponent or keep your life total high(er) for Sylvan Library to Ancestral Recall and then turn into a Sensei's Divining Top with a comfortable life total that can be supplemented with Deathrite Shaman activations.

I find myself being able to switch between beat down and control pretty effectively as needed.

It's an interesting idea, however, one of the main ways to attack Jund is through graveyard hate. With that in mind, removing Bob and BBE (our best card advantage cards and non-graveyard dependent creatures) to add in another graveyard dependent creature seems like a bad idea. However, it is an idea that requires testing as I'm just theory crafting.

[sdematt]

It's an interesting idea, however, one of the main ways to attack Jund is through graveyard hate. With that in mind, removing Bob and BBE (our best card advantage cards and non-graveyard dependent creatures) to add in another graveyard dependent creature seems like a bad idea. However, it is an idea that requires testing as I'm just theory crafting.

4 Sylvan is too many Sylvan, in my experience. 3 is just fine, though.

-Matt

[Flopnuts72]

4 Sylvan is too many Sylvan, in my experience. 3 is just fine, though. -Matt
Matt I thought you don't post in this thread ;p when I found out about the source I started lurking on the junk thread because I love the deck, but have since changed to jund for tournaments. Your posts have always been informative and you seem to do a good job adapting to the meta. I have read that you have jund built to play against your friends. If you could post a list or what your sideboard looks like with some insight I think us jund players would greatly appreciate it!

[Final Fortune]

4 Sylvan is too many Sylvan, in my experience. 3 is just fine, though.

-Matt

I think it's the same as Tops, even tho' 4 seems like too many once you've played one it mitigates the chances of drawing another - plus people like to blow them up so you should always build a 2nd Death Star just in case.

As far as the graveyard hate comment goes, the problem I have with that is that Bloodbraid Elf and Dark Confident really aren't winning any games in the combat step on their own anyway - where Tombstalker lets you drop the curve to ~2 and just run away with the game out of Abrupt Decay and Lightning Bolt range.

[razvan]

Even 3 seems too much. I often find 2 too much, but for a deck like Junk, 2 is probably good since they have less actual card advantage (but probably better card quality). I don't want to cascade into one anyway.

4 is way too overkill. The card is good, but it's not *that* good in a lot of match-ups.

[aluisiocsantos]

The problem with Sylvan Library is that it doesnt add anything to the game if they show up in multiples. Sure, 4 of them increase the chance of having them in play, but otherwise you might miss having an extra removal for an actual problem than a card sticking in your hand.

2 copies is an optimal quantity for it - the odds of getting a second copy is quite low, and keeps a good chance of it at least showing by once - which is all you need. An alternative is Mirri's Guile

[Holly]

Even 3 seems too much. I often find 2 too much, but for a deck like Junk, 2 is probably good since they have less actual card advantage (but probably better card quality). I don't want to cascade into one anyway.

4 is way too overkill. The card is good, but it's not *that* good in a lot of match-ups.


Well good thing is, he won't cascade into it with his list.
And the card is good in MOST matchups.. 1 is played because further are worthless yeah.. but like mentioned ton of times and to simply quote him:

I think it's the same as Tops, even tho' 4 seems like too many once you've played one it mitigates the chances of drawing another - plus people like to blow them up so you should always build a 2nd Death Star just in case.

I don't know if 4 is the correct number, I don't think it is for the reason that while 1 mitigates the chance of drawing a second you can open your 7 with multiples and you don't allways got the time to play the Library turn 2.
While it's true that it's a card heavily hit my Decay one could also make a comment that Decay sees a <little> less play at the moment. For testings I'd settle for 3 and go up/down if nessecary.


The problem with Sylvan Library is that it doesnt add anything to the game if they show up in multiples. Sure, 4 of them increase the chance of having them in play, but otherwise you might miss having an extra removal for an actual problem than a card sticking in your hand.

2 copies is an optimal quantity for it - the odds of getting a second copy is quite low, and keeps a good chance of it at least showing by once - which is all you need. An alternative is Mirri's Guile

Again good thing is Library draws you into your removal.. I mean in his lists he plays 12 (not even counting Liliana) removal spells ! I don't think he's short on that.. I get that "removal" was just an example and could be switched for everything else.. but again Library works for drawing whatever you need.

I also don't get your alternative of Mirri's Guile.. doesn't work in multiples/together with Library well (apart from fetchland interaction) so why would I want to play the much card which is much less powerful?

In my opionion 2 isn't the number of a card you want "each" game (apart from fastcombo), which gets destroyed and is your only way of card advantage (apart from Liliana which might be a second source) even if its useless in multiplies. Could be wrong though since Jitte is/was played most of the times as 2 of aswell.. but I don't think that comparision can hold its ground since one is useless without a second part (creatures to equip) while the other is not.

[aluisiocsantos]

Drawing a second Library is bad enough, I wouldn't like drawing 4 of them!

[Flopnuts72]

Has anyone tested running a single scrubland/savannah as a 24land. To use some white sb cards like gaddok teeg or ethersworn?? Maybe something like this?
Lands:24
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm

I ran a single plateau in my burn deck for a bit so I could have wear and tear in the sb for leyline of sanctity. Just an idea I had that might improve some of our bad match ups. Any thoughts?

[Final Fortune]

Even 3 seems too much. I often find 2 too much, but for a deck like Junk, 2 is probably good since they have less actual card advantage (but probably better card quality). I don't want to cascade into one anyway.

4 is way too overkill. The card is good, but it's not *that* good in a lot of match-ups.

People need to test it, Sylvan Library is much more difficult to answer than Dark Confident and quickly runs away with the game if you get to Ancestral Recall and then keep a mana free Sensei's Divining Top in play, even a hand with 2 Sylvan Library will draw a Force of Will, Spell Pierce or Daze where Dark Confident would only draw a Daze or Force of Will if the opponent didn't have removal in hand. Post-board I've had opponents, mostly BUG, SB in Golgari Charm because they couldn't afford to let Sylvan Library resolve (and probably were under the impression that I also played with Dark Confidents)

Drawing additional Sylvan Libraries after the first is mitiagted by its own ability, it really is essentially a green Sensei's Divining Top and a better source of card advantage than either Bloodbraid Elf or Dark Confident as long as you have something to make up for the loss of bodies, and Tombstalker fills that role perfectly.

I'd encourage you to at least try it, it's significantly more aggressive than Punishing Jund lists and you get to play with less lands and more threats overall because you're not curving out at 4 anymore.

I think you guys are suffing from the old 3x Null Rod argument in Vintage Fish, but the second Null Rod does nothing after the first because you've already won the game so you should always play 4. That's how I feel about Sylvan Library, it's broken as fuck.

[sdematt]

Matt I thought you don't post in this thread ;p when I found out about the source I started lurking on the junk thread because I love the deck, but have since changed to jund for tournaments. Your posts have always been informative and you seem to do a good job adapting to the meta. I have read that you have jund built to play against your friends. If you could post a list or what your sideboard looks like with some insight I think us jund players would greatly appreciate it!

I lurk in *all the threads, I just don't necessarily post, which means that my time between posts is heavily delayed.

The black mana count is a bit low and red is over represented in the manabase, but it's hard to fix since you need it for Punishing Fires.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Chainer's Edict
3 Punishing Fires
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to tourach

2 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Black producing Land

Hymn is just plain bad in some matchups, so I might turn them into Inquisitions to a) Lower the curve a tad, b) Be able to grab what you want, for sure. As for a sideboard:

1 Sylvan Library
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Golgari charm
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Duress
+3 Open

Jund is in good colours and has a good setup to really abuse Liliana, since Fires can take out the rest of their team. Jund also means you can run Ancient Grudge, which is excellent against the Equipment decks, and Pyroblast counters the TNN, Jaces, etc.

Against Aggro decks, you have 10 removal maindeck with Charm in the board. Against Elves, 12 pieces with Cages should be just fine. Against Merfolk, you're the Tarmogoyf deck with shit tons of removal, 13 + Charms after board. Your deck is 15 + Liliana against them, so you'll be just fine.
Against BUG Shardless, Punishing Fires is king at controlling the little dudes and after board, Blast and Library help to keep up with Visions. The deck does shit the bed sometimes when you don't assemble the Fires combo, but you hope that with 4 Confidant, 2 Library (3 after board), and Bloodbraids, you should be able to assemble it.

Just my take and what I'd be playing if I were playing Jund. Just my opinion, but it tests well enough and it's nothing drastically different.

-Matt

[Kihashi]

Hymn is just plain bad in some matchups, so I might turn them into Inquisitions to a) Lower the curve a tad, b) Be able to grab what you want, for sure.

-Matt

It is also one of your sources of card advantage. Of course, it introduces more luck into your matchups, but we have to take CA where we can get it, I think. Let us know how it works without Hymn. What matchups were you thinking about removing hymn for?

[sdematt]

I agree that Hymn is one of Jund's sources of card advantage, but you really have to make a metagame call and see what's going on. I mean, it's also different because I've decided to make space for only 2 copies. I think if you're running 3 or 4 copies, that's quite fine and maybe you should stick with it. However, if you're facing a ton of True Name Nemesis.deck, that element of randomness in your card advantage could lead to your demise. Let's think of this scenario:

You're on the draw, and it's your Turn 2. You Hymn to Tourach. you knock out good stuff, but they hit land drop into True Name Nemesis.


This is a scenario where you a) Hope you have Liliana in hand; b) Wish you had pinpoint discard to hit TNN.

You get the pure 2-for-1 with your Hymn, but their TNN is getting a really great X-for-1 when you have a ton of trouble removing it. I opted for an extra Sylvan Library slot, as well as the Chainer's Edict, to help combat this deck. In general, Jund is going to be the control deck in many scenarios. You're a Punishing Fires-Liliana control deck. As the game wears on, those lovely pieces of discard are just going to get worse and worse. Might as well have one extra edge against in Chainer's Edict (and it flashes back), and better card selection in Sylvan. Moving Hymn to IoK means you can actually grab TNN if need be, as opposed to hitting two random cards, of which none or all may matter.

I think it's a preference thing and a meta call.

-Matt

[aluisiocsantos]

I really like Chainer's Edict MD. Might try it out. Playing a tourney this weekend at last!

[razvan]

Chainer's Edict flashback is a bit too expensive. I like the card but still. Is the off-chance that much better than having it instant speed?

[sdematt]

When I've played Jund, I had no problem getting up to 7 mana in the late game. You're running Deathrite and you're assembling an increasingly powerful Punishing Fires engine the more and more land drops you make.

-Matt

[anakyn]

IMHO, just the fact Hymn can also hit lands, while no other discard can, thus giving us some free wins here and there, is enough to stick with it. The card advantage is ice on the cake.

Sure: I find myself too siding them out pretty often, mainly vs aggro and some midrange like Shardless, but they have so much potential in any game 1, they are so strong vs combo / control and so synergic with our general strategy, that I would never leave them at home.

[Rizso]

Tbh I kinda want to have some huntmaster of fells in the 75. Easy to flipp back when playing with Punishing fire groove. Its one of the best midrange creatures ever printed.

[Flopnuts72]

Thanks Matt for posting your list and some thoughts! I played almost that exact list at GP Minneapolis. -1 sylvan +1 hym, an the sideboard was different.
With the omni-presence of TNN and SB Golgari Charms does anyone else think we should be removing a set of Dark Confidents and adding a set of Sylvan Libraries instead? I really dislike having to SB out my card advanage engine when I SB in my spot removal, and even tho' we lose a bear we gain the possibility of playing Tombstalker(s) instead. I'm really reaching the point where I just want to cut Bloodbraid Elf and Dark Confident entirely for being shitty sources of card advantage attached to bears and only use Liliana of the Veil and Sylvan Library as my card advantage engines with either Xenagos and/or Tombstalkers delivering the kill. I have been doing some testing on cockatrise with 4 sylvan and 3tombstalker. Tombstalker defiantly can close some games quick! One thing that bloodbraid is a boss at is swinging in on planeswalkers with haste! If they drop jace and bounce your Tombstalker that can be problematic. Bloodbraid is nice because of haste and kills TMS with an empty board! Sylvan is also good with bloodbraid to maximize your cascades. I love sylvan but I think 4 is to much. I also have always liked Tombstalker and the reach it gives, plus it dodges decay. Idk if the sylvan stalker route is the most optimal list but it's fun to play!

[aluisiocsantos]

Played yesterday with a list like this:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Chainer's Edict
3 Punishing Fires
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to tourach

The extra sac effect is pretty nice, even though, even like that I couldn't win the matches in which they had TNN. Such an annoying card.
Won vs Reanimator exactly due to that - And won against an Enchantress deck also because of sacrificing creeps - Since their creatures can't be targetted.
I lost to a Esper Blade with TNN and... Merfolk. But in this case it was due to lack of Punishing Fires. Not a single one drawn during the entirety of 3 games.

That said, with a BUG Delver having Tombstalker in the latest SCG.. I was thinking about building a version of the deck with 4 Chainer's Edict? More untargetable removals, but also a better solution for combo AND those goddamn fishes.

Do you guys like better the pinpointing function of Punishing Fire, or try a version with less lands, no P.Fire, but with 4 Diabolic/Chainer Edict+Lilliana and more cards in the deck (due to the pfire engine removal) such as extra Bolts/Decays/Pulse?

EDIT: Something like, or maybe incorporate something from this deck http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62390

Creatures - 15
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells - 25
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Chainer's Edict/Small Pox for added disruption
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse/Life from the Loam if Small Pox is used
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

Lands - 20
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
3 Pyroblast
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam/Maelstrom Pulse
1 Scavenging Ooze

[jake556]

one thing that confused me, was up until top 8, on cam he would fetch basics as his first land, but his last games 3 he fetched duals first. why the change?


This is due to having access to deck lists in the Top 8 and not fearing Wasteland no?

[o_boogie]

I would strongly advise against playing with anything less than 23 lands since the deck has little card selection besides a singleton Sylvan Library. Running twenty lands (including the 4 Wasteland) and Smallpox seems like a recipe for manascewing yourself.

If you are concerned with Tombstalker I would add a Maelstrom Pulse main and add a second to the sideboard. I never feel bad drawing Pulse since it answers a lot of problems.

The reason to play this deck is to keep the fair decks in check. If you start running an edict package instead of Punishing Fire you may improve your Sneak and Show and Reanimator matchup marginally, but your fair deck matchups worst. At the same time your Elves and Storm matchups are not improved.

[sdematt]

I would strongly advise against playing with anything less than 23 lands since the deck has little card selection besides a singleton Sylvan Library. Running twenty lands (including the 4 Wasteland) and Smallpox seems like a recipe for manascewing yourself.

If you are concerned with Tombstalker I would add a Maelstrom Pulse main and add a second to the sideboard. I never feel bad drawing Pulse since it answers a lot of problems.

The reason to play this deck is to keep the fair decks in check. If you start running an edict package instead of Punishing Fire you may improve your Sneak and Show and Reanimator matchup marginally, but your fair deck matchups worst. At the same time your Elves and Storm matchups are not improved.

I agree.

Fires is the reason to play a red midrange deck in Legacy. Without it, you just play Junk. Fires is a better answer to the small dudes and it leverages your Lilianas and Edicts a lot harder. Tell us how you lost the True Name matchups: did you not have a sac effect? Did you not have Thoughtseize? What else "went wrong"? No open mana to Pyroblast on Turn 3? It could also just be variance.

If you're still worried, run 1 more edict in the board.

-Matt

[Kihashi]

The thing I have been thinking about lately is sideboarding. What do you tend to take out of the main deck? I often find myself siding out thoughtseize in long, grindy mathups (Shardless) and leaving in Hymns, but reading a page or so back about siding out hymns got me to thinking, When do you side out your discard and which ones do you side out?

I'll be at the SCG Open in Columbus this weekend playing Jund (I'll have a Source playmat as well to help you pick me out). If you see me, feel free to hit me up. I'm more than happy to talk to other Jund players.

[o_boogie]

Against fair decks I find myself taking out discard spells first. Jund tends to have long grindy games against fair decks. The longer the game goes on the less valuable discard becomes. I would rather have spells that affect the board rather than my opponent's hand (e.g., removal or permanents).

Although it is very matchup dependent, I typically take out Thoughtseize on the play and Hymn to Tourach on the draw. My reasoning is I prefer Hymn when I am ahead or even on board advantage and that typically is not the case on the draw. By turn two when on you the draw you may be staring down a Delver and Goyf/Stoneforge; I would have rather Thoughtseized away the latter threat turn 1.

Indeed there are other situations where you take out discard because it assists your opponent in winning the game. For example, Hymn may put a Dredge enabler or Life from the Loam in the bin.

[sdematt]

The thing I have been thinking about lately is sideboarding. What do you tend to take out of the main deck? I often find myself siding out thoughtseize in long, grindy mathups (Shardless) and leaving in Hymns, but reading a page or so back about siding out hymns got me to thinking, When do you side out your discard and which ones do you side out?

I'll be at the SCG Open in Columbus this weekend playing Jund (I'll have a Source playmat as well to help you pick me out). If you see me, feel free to hit me up. I'm more than happy to talk to other Jund players.

I'll be honest, most of the time, the discard comes out for me, especially if you plan to go long. Considering you're a Punishing Fires Control deck, you're going long against most of the format. You're playing the control game against: Elves, Delver decks, Merfolk, Midrange, etc. Only decks you're not? combo.

Because of this, discard becomes worse and worse as the game runs long. Information from hand disruption is great, but the thing you don't want to do in the late game? Draw dead. Usually, I'll board out the 6 pieces of discard and then trim, depending on how many slots I need to bring in.

-Matt

[sawatarix]

How do we combat combodecks aka Ant and Sneakshow?

I thought about an underground sea or two to include flusterstorms and swan songs in our sideboard.
Otherwise i don't see a realistic way to beat them.




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[anakyn]

How do we combat combodecks aka Ant and Sneakshow?

I thought about an underground sea or two to include flusterstorms and swan songs in our sideboard.
Otherwise i don't see a realistic way to beat them.


Lately I tested the Jund vs ANT matchup, both on Jund and ANT side, and I wouldn't say it's that bad for Jund honestly.
Maybe it's just my configuration, but I found it to be almost even.

The TES matchup is much worse, because they can combo very early without giving us the opportunity to butcher their hand; ANT on the other side has often to wait until 3rd/4th turn before going off, meaning we have a couple of turns to discard their threats away, then land Liliana and keep ruining their hand.
If they are smart they will land their artifact mana early, so they might win just topdecking an Infernal tutor, but if you have a Shaman on the board you can ruin their plan even if they manage to start their combo.

You have many weapons to fight ANT, this shouldn't be an horrible matchup.
Even TES shouldn't be too bad if you have a couple of Golgari charms and/or Deed/Plagues/Explosives to side in, since they usually go for the Goblins plan.


I have no particular advices for the S&T matchup 'cause I didn't test it much.
They too aren't usually very fast, so I guess your discard and Pyroblasts can help a lot.


All in all, I don't think the blue splash is worth to fight combo.

[Lemnear]

You have many weapons to fight ANT, this shouldn't be an horrible matchup.
Even TES shouldn't be too bad if you have a couple of Golgari charms and/or Deed/Plagues/Explosives to side in, since they usually go for the Goblins plan.

You noticed that TES switched to a full set of Cabal Therapy in the MB to fight Hymn via trading discard 4 discard and Dismember cards like Golgari Charm/Deed/Plague via flashback of the Therapy for the cost of a goblin (and likely 11+ remaining)?

[sawatarix]

Yeah,lemnear my protege you are right,
I'm also playing TES and the Jud Mu is really favourable even if they have charm.
Well then we take the ad nauseam into pif into grapeshot route.

I just miss countermagic or permanent hate to fight combodecks,maybe a combination of Thoughtseize,Pyroblast,Phyrexian Revoker (Led,Sneak attack)
And flusterstorms/swansongs.

Not sure if the worse manabase is worth it.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Lemnear]

Yeah,lemnear my protege you are right,
I'm also playing TES and the Jud Mu is really favourable even if they have charm.
Well then we take the ad nauseam into pif into grapeshot route.

I just miss countermagic or permanent hate to fight combodecks,maybe a combination of Thoughtseize,Pyroblast,Phyrexian Revoker (Led,Sneak attack)
And flusterstorms/swansongs.

Not sure if the worse manabase is worth it.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

Lol Kai XD

I'd board additional Discard and Pyroblasts if I would play Jund and accept the weakness to turn 1 kills. Revoker at least has some nice tools in disabling Grindstone and SFM though

[anakyn]

You noticed that TES switched to a full set of Cabal Therapy in the MB to fight Hymn via trading discard 4 discard and Dismember cards like Golgari Charm/Deed/Plague via flashback of the Therapy for the cost of a goblin (and likely 11+ remaining)?


Of course, I played and tested that TES version too, in fact I wrote it's far worse matchup than ANT: the Warren + Therapy plan hurts a lot.

But you have neither control nor answers to Jund topdecks, so a lucky topdecked Charm / Deed / Plague will kill your tokens. It rarely happens, but it happens.

[Lemnear]

Of course, I played and tested that TES version too, in fact I wrote it's far worse matchup than ANT: the Warren + Therapy plan hurts a lot.

But you have neither control nor answers to Jund topdecks, so a lucky topdecked Charm / Deed / Plague will kill your tokens. It rarely happens, but it happens.

Silence is your only out against topdecked hate, so I agree overall. The question remains, how many Solutions to storm or the goblins-trait of some storm-iterations you are willing to include in your 75 to have it available in case of need

[anakyn]

Silence is your only out against topdecked hate, so I agree overall. The question remains, how many Solutions to storm or the goblins-trait of some storm-iterations you are willing to include in your 75 to have it available in case of need


Right now in my Jund list I only have 3 solutions to a Goblin swarm: 2 Charms + 1 Explosives. I might add a third Charm, but that's all.
About a month ago I played a different solution (Plagues) but the number was the same.

I have almost no control (a lone Library) on my topdecks too so drawing them just at the right time is the only out to a resolved Warrens.

The only realistic solution to beat TES is discard, and usually Jund hasn't many windows to do that, unlike the ANT matchup where we should live for a couple of turns longer than against TES.
I also play Extirpate in my board, but that weapon too seems stronger vs ANT than vs TES because the latter has more tools to find his win conditions.


Having said that, I don't think adding blue to the mana base is the best idea for Jund to fight combo decks.
I guess if we choose Jund we should just accept not to be in the best position to fight combo.
If I wanted to improve my Storm matchup, probably I would add a couple of Mindbreak traps.

[sawatarix]

Hm,it makes all sense but then you would probably go 5:4:0 or so in a grand prix,coz you will face sneakshow or ant for sure.
Just saying: "You play combo?Well,0:2 gg" is not good enough to reach day 2 in a grand prix or to finish in the
Prizes.

Another card to beat ant would be pyrostatic pillar.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Lemnear]

Hm,it makes all sense but then you would probably go 5:4:0 or so in a grand prix,coz you will face sneakshow or ant for sure.
Just saying: "You play combo?Well,0:2 gg" is not good enough to reach day 2 in a grand prix or to finish in the
Prizes.

Another card to beat ant would be pyrostatic pillar.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

Discard + Pyroblast should work well against SneakShow

[sawatarix]

Well i'm gonna play Jund tonight in the weekly touranemt in berlin, see how it goes (i'm normally used to play canadian ******** or german ********)
Looking forward to fight against combo decks to analyze how to combat them exactely


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[MD.Ghost]

As a non blue player i have some experience which weapons you need against combo.

Discard are an auto include in Jund, so most of the time you don't need additional spells in your sideboard (or you will be crushed by Leyline one day)

Some good working Spells:

Red Elemental Blast (Against all the blue Stuff, very good against Show&Tell Variants, High Tide and some splash damage to counter some Cantrips against storms, for example if the brainstorm in response to discard)

Surgical Extraction (for free and mainly good against some Graveyard-Combos, also works against other combo decks if you get theire stuff discarded or they answer with brainstorm and hide some spells "let them shuffle!" :wink:)

Grafdigger's Cage (Jund has no Green Zenith, so you can use this tool as additional Graveyard Hate, also works very against the elvish crowd and can block the Past in Flames route for Storm Combo)

So you gain some mixed slots which works well with your maindeck discard. You can play some additional stuff like Golgari Charm (vs TNN, D&T, elves, Sneak Attack, Empty the Warrens Token, RiP), Engineered Explosives (flexible Hate and good enough vs idle LEDs or the Token Swarm), Pithing Needle (against Miracles Sensei's or Sneak Attack, Grindstone) etc.

I don't think that Jund shoud use narrow Stuff like Mindbreak Trap etc. Without blue and the Power of Counterspells you don't have some "auto win" hands against combo matchup and it's allways hard to get them. On the other side every blue Player can tell you some stories when they lost against stacked counters from the opponent (Show&Tell, Reanimate, High Tide) or Disruption Spells like Discard (ANT/TES). In my opionion knowledge and a good and flexible Sideboard are the best Weapons fair decks can bring.

[sdematt]

I mean, as a non-blue deck not using hatebears, you're already at that disadvantage. You're playing P. Fires because it does better against fair decks. If you wanted to do better against Combo, play Junk and run Thalia, Teeg, Canonist, and discard.

So, if you wanted a solid sideboard against the metagame, and assuming you won't hit combo every matchup, I would run:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Chainer's Edict
3 Punishing Fires
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to tourach/Inquisition/Cabal Therapy/whatever

24 Lands

3 Pyroblast
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
2 Pithing Needle/Revoker

The Needles/Revoker could also be Plagues, Hymns, or really, whatever you thought was the boogeyman. No deck is beating the nuts draw from a combo deck, Force of Will or not.

Against SnT, I'd be running:

-3 Punishing Fires
-3 Abrupt Decay
-3 Bloodbraid Elf

+3 Pyroblast
+2 Needle/Revoker
+2 Duress
+2 Golgari Charm

Against ANT/TES:

-3 Punishing Fires
-3 Abrupt Decay
-3 BBE

+2 Duress
+2 Grafdigger's Cage
+2 Revoker
+1 Spellbomb
+2 Golgari Charm (in case of Empty)

TES is obviously much worse for us, though.

[razvan]

The deck is fine vs. combo. The deck is fine vs. anything except burn, that’s the point.

Sometimes those combo decks go crazy and there is nothing you can do. You will lose to combo, and sometimes you will lose 0-2 to combo. Again, like many have said, you have to accept the random variance in the game to beat you.

However, we have more tools than most decks. I mean, my list runs 3 Hymns and 3 Thoughtseizes, and I have seen people run more. We also run 3-4 Liliana, and our sideboard is 2-3 REBs, more discard, Surgical Extractions and other graveyard hate, Chains of Mephistopheles for some, as well as random other crap that people think of putting. Not to mention Golgari Charm, which are amazing on 2/3 modes vs. combo.

We can run up to 1/3rd of our deck as relevant hate against Combo. The rest is just beaters, not hate-bears, which is a problem, but it’s not an insurmountable problem. They need to deal with our Dark Confidants or we will bury them. We can wasteland them as well, and just use random effects to slow them down until a BBE flips a Tarmogoyf and we win next turn.

I myself have thought about adding white for Stoneforge Mystic… I absolutely LOVE that card… or blue, for Flusterstorm and Swan Song, both amazing cards incidentally.

The problem with both plans, less with white than with blue, is the fact that we make our match-ups worse against Delvers, and as I mentioned, it’s already frightening for some reason. The deck is at a delicate balance right now. Not to mention that neither plan is a solution to TNN.

[nedleeds]

I mean, as a non-blue deck not using hatebears, you're already at that disadvantage. You're playing P. Fires because it does better against fair decks. If you wanted to do better against Combo, play Junk and run Thalia, Teeg, Canonist, and discard.


Agree with Matt here. Null Rod is another nice cross cutting card for Jund. Nobody is bringing in artifact removal against Jund and it cuts off 10-12 mana sources vs. storm, it wrecks equipment (especially since Jund has many tools to deal with a 0 CMC germ), it's good vs. Miracles which is a rather pedestrian deck without top, maybe even vs. death and taxes, should you hit Affinity it's a free win with Null Rod.

[sawatarix]

I attended the local tournament tonight and went 2:2:0 which is not awesome at all but had a lot of fun with my friends here.

One thing to notice about the combomu:
I did not put the underground sea in the maindeck for swansong or flusterstorm.
Instead i ran a lot of pyroblasts,extra copies of thoughtseize and surgical extraction.
I got paired against my good friend Lemnear who played TES tonight.The next section will maybe give a little insight why underground sea and countermagic would be good.
Let's dive in:

I won the die roll
G1 i kept:
Thoughtseize Tarmogoyf Tarmogoyf Badlands Verdant Catacombs liliana of the Veil Lightning Bolt

I seize him and see: LED Dark Ritual Brainstorm Burning Wish Underground Sea Chrome Mox Gemstone Mine.
I take the LED and pass.
He plays Usea and passes back.
I draw Liliana ,lay down Goyf and pass. He brainstorms at eot and drops the mine next to his Usea.After another Brainstorm he passes.
I draw another Goyf and attack for 4 and land the second goyf to increase the clock.
Lemnear untaps,plays Lotus Petal Rite of Flame Dark Ritual Infernal Tutor (Rof) Rof Rof burning Wish past in Flames into all Rites and finally Tutor for Wish. For Tendrils.

G2 Sideboarding: took out all punishing fires,decay and bolts and 2 Elves for 2 extractions,2 duress 4 Pyroblasts.

I keep this one:
Thoughtseize Dark Confidant verdant Catacomb Grove of the Burnwillows Hymn to tourach Hymn to tourach Bloodbraid Elf.
I start with seize an look at:
Burning Wish infernal Tutor Dark Ritual Ponder LED usea Gemstone Mine.
I pick the Led.
He layd Usea,ponders and passes.
I drop Bob.
He makes 132 Goblins,strips my entire hand with theraphys and shoot me dead with 39 Grapeshots.

Are underground seas and Flusterstorms still not needed?




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[nedleeds]

Your mana sucked and you couldn't cast Hymn. Maybe you should have kept DRSs in and taken Bloodbraid out.

[anakyn]

Are underground seas and Flusterstorms still not needed?


Yep, I think so.
You lost against one of Jund's worst matchups, I guess it's life when playing a deck focused on beating fair decks.

Keeping all Shamans in would probably have been better than splashing for blue.
I really don't understand why you benched the Shamans and kept the Elves.

[sawatarix]

I kept all shamans in,just cut 2 bloodbraid elves.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[anakyn]

I kept all shamans in,just cut 2 bloodbraid elves.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -


Sorry, I misread.


EDIT

Even if you wanted to beat TES so hard, I still don't understand why you should choose the U.Sea + Flusterstorm route instead of just using a couple of Mindbreak Traps, which serve the same purpose but don't require an akward blue splash.

[Lemnear]

I keep this one:
Thoughtseize Dark Confidant verdant Catacomb Grove of the Burnwillows Hymn to tourach Hymn to tourach Bloodbraid Elf.
I start with seize an look at:
Burning Wish infernal Tutor Dark Ritual Ponder Chrome Mox usea Gemstone Mine.
I pick the Dark Ritual
He layd Usea,ponders and passes.
I drop Bob.
He makes 132 Goblins,strips my entire hand with theraphys and shoot me dead with 39 Grapeshots.


Fixed :)

Edit: Still not my record for Goblins though :/


Your mana sucked and you couldn't cast Hymn. Maybe you should have kept DRSs in and taken Bloodbraid out.

Out of curiosity: Does that mean you would have mulled the hand? I doubt it.

[LEH]

There is absolutely no reason to put in Underground Seas and counterspells. Firstly, it opens us up to Wasteland so much more than our manabase does currently, it essentially forces us to drop Punishing Grove package (weakening us up to our current strong MUs) and forces us to drop Bloodbraid Elf to stop terrible Cascades. Furthermore, the main counters we'd need to combat Combo are heavily blue focused Force of Will and Daze, dropping cards we need in order to play situational counter magic when we already play the best discard spells in the game is pointless and will only weaken the decks strengths. Jund is king of fair decks but is weak against Combo, that's just the nature of the game. On the whole, Jund beats: Aggro, Control and other Midrange decks the only branch it loses to is Combo, that's actually one of the most impressive win cycles in Legacy. No deck is favorable against all archetypes.

[Avez]

The deck is fine vs. combo. The deck is fine vs. anything except burn, that’s the point.

I need some advice against Burn. I'm attending a local 30-40 people GPT Paris tournament next sunday and I've scouted that there are 2-3 Burn-players in the tournament. Otherwise the meta seems to filled with fair decks, 2 manaless dredges and only few combo decks. What is the best sideboard card against Burn? Zuran Orb? Or should I just ignore the Burn-decks and hope I don't pair against them...

My decklist (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/punishing-jund-17-11-13-1/)

[anakyn]

I need some advice against Burn.


Honestly, it's the same advice I'd give to anyone asking for help in a combo-infested meta: play another deck.

And if you really wanna play Jund, maybe Ooze is the best answer to Burn. Just remember to play it when they are tapped out, or if you have other 2 green mana open ;)

[sawatarix]

Kitchen finks comes to mind, not tested yet.




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[aluisiocsantos]

Kitchen Finks is widely used in Modern jund due to burn decks. Worth trying if the UR decks keep popping up. We insta-lose to Price of progress.

[razvan]

Burn is a problem. I wouldn't bother with it, however. You need all your sideboard cards to beat real match-ups, and you still cannot fit everything in. Bringing something specific against burn is a bad idea.

[sdematt]

Man, I played this deck last night for reals against Death and Taxes, and man, this manabase with Grove can sometimes be atrocious for casting BB spells. Especially when under no DRS, WAsteland, and Port conditions :P

-Matt

[Vicar in a tutu]

Man, I played this deck last night for reals against Death and Taxes, and man, this manabase with Grove can sometimes be atrocious for casting BB spells. Especially when under no DRS, WAsteland, and Port conditions :P

-Matt
That is the main reason I don't use Punishing Fire. That and the fact that I already hate losing to Rest in Peace. You would think that Abrupt Decay (and Golgari Charm in the side) is enough to fight RIP, but I keep running into it. If I can't deal with it, I simply lose. But back to the main point, nothing is worse than having Liliana dead in your hand because you have too many lands in the deck that doesn't tap for black.

[sawatarix]

I included a singleton Urborg,Tomb of Yagamoth in the maindeck to make a rainbowland of Grove and Wastelands.
It has been good so far .


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[nedleeds]

Out of curiosity: Does that mean you would have mulled the hand? I doubt it.

No. Not with a thoughtseize. The math on drawing a black source on the back swing is enough to give it a go.

[Gaius Darkfire]

I went 4-1 with Punishing Jund today in a local event. Lost round 1 to dredge, then beat Lands, Imperial Painter, UR Delver, and Enchantress. This got my to 2nd place and in top 8, then lost in the quarterfinals to Affinity. There were two highlights for me. First was when the Painter player had Blood Moon in play and played Painter, I went EOT REB on the Blood Moon, then Decay on Painter, and went to win (I had never considered boarding those in for the matchup but it was fantastic). The other was game 1 against enchantress, I won the die roll and went fetch-> Deathrite, turn 2 Hymn, turn 3 Hymn Hymn (leaving 1 card in hand and 1 land), turn 4 Goyf Goyf. It wasn't fair and felt damn good.

[pjetr0]

Hi guys, Im playing Jund nearly 1 year and I must say I love this deck. But I have a serious issue with combo decks, namely TES. From my experience, this deck is quite unbeatable. They have brainstorms, that is fine, but they have also silence and orims chant what makes discard completely useless. These spells give them plenty of time to set up all they need. Do you have some advice or strategy how to fight them? I missed top 8 yesterday because of this (43 players, 4-2), one month before I lost in quarterfinals against this deck. I do not want to switch deck because of this matchup, but on the other hand, loosing against storm decks really sucks. Beside this, it is very common that at least 1 storm deck fit the top 8 every time in my meta. My deck list:

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire

4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Golgari Charm
2 Duress
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Choke

The deck performs pretty well, 2 basic swamps are excellent against meta full of UWR. Against fair decks, the deck is usually super good. Against unfair decks, everything depends on the type of combo you are fighting against (from my experience TES is the worst, too many goblins during 1st or 2nd turn).

Pjetr0

[Lemnear]

Hi guys, Im playing Jund nearly 1 year and I must say I love this deck. But I have a serious issue with combo decks, namely TES. From my experience, this deck is quite unbeatable. They have brainstorms, that is fine, but they have also silence and orims chant what makes discard completely useless. These spells give them plenty of time to set up all they need. Do you have some advice or strategy how to fight them? I missed top 8 yesterday because of this (43 players, 4-2), one month before I lost in quarterfinals against this deck. I do not want to switch deck because of this matchup, but on the other hand, loosing against storm decks really sucks. Beside this, it is very common that at least 1 storm deck fit the top 8 every time in my meta. My deck list:

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire

4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Golgari Charm
2 Duress
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Choke

The deck performs pretty well, 2 basic swamps are excellent against meta full of UWR. Against fair decks, the deck is usually super good. Against unfair decks, everything depends on the type of combo you are fighting against (from my experience TES is the worst, too many goblins during 1st or 2nd turn).

Pjetr0

You can only try Mindbreak Trap to aid Hymn and Thoughtseize. The matchup is indeed that bad and like discussed a few posts above, there is not much else you can do

[sawatarix]

The rise of Jund in 2013 was also one reason for me to storm around,together with my fellow lemnear


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[aluisiocsantos]

So, now that Spirit of the Labyrinth (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151341&d=1390194288) is a thing.. and Jund is facing some hard times.. anybody thought about going the Ajundi route?
With the new guy, not only we troll our worst enemies - EVERYTHING using blue color for at least screwing up 8 cards, and greatly making it easier versus the combo matchup - Elves, Storm (if we have enough time), SnT/Omni, the list goes on.

Using SotL instead of Sylvan Library? Thoughts?

4 Color Jund - Ajundi?

Creatures - 18
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth

Spells - 18
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach

Lands - 24
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

Sideboard
3 Pyroblast
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam/Maelstrom Pulse

Any more ideas for usable white color hate (i included 1 Zealous Persecution on the sideboard)? Ideas? Bullying?

[sdematt]

So, now that Spirit of the Labyrinth (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151341&d=1390194288) is a thing.. and Jund is facing some hard times.. anybody thought about going the Ajundi route?
With the new guy, not only we troll our worst enemies - EVERYTHING using blue color for at least screwing up 8 cards, and greatly making it easier versus the combo matchup - Elves, Storm (if we have enough time), SnT/Omni, the list goes on.

Using SotL instead of Sylvan Library? Thoughts?

4 Color Jund - Ajundi?

Creatures - 18
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth

Spells - 18
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach

Lands - 24
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

Sideboard
3 Pyroblast
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam/Maelstrom Pulse

Any more ideas for usable white color hate (i included 1 Zealous Persecution on the sideboard)? Ideas? Bullying?

I couldn't think of a way to make the manabase worse, but you did. *Slow Clap

If you want to play white hatebears, I would suggest to switch to DnT. But since you're a man now, you're playing Jund instead. You don't need no silly hate bears.

Sylvan is still a fucking amazing card, even with that little derdle possibly seeing play in a deck or two. If it's in their maindeck, meaning you're playing against Death and Taxes, cool. Punishing Fires is even more real. If someone sides it in to stop your 2 Sylvans, then they're bad and you should likely beat them anyway unless you have a stroke OR are sleeping through the match.

I agree the manabase is SUPER fucky. Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth seems like an excellent addition that I'll be trying out.

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire

4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library


This list, by and large, has almost perfect mana ratios with the Urborgs. You're 5% low on black mana by sight, but the program doesn't account for Urborg granting everything being a swamp, so it should even out. You're so heavy in black it's not even funny, so we might as well make the manabase the least awful we possibly can. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there will be times double Urborg will suck, but recall the new Legend rule and we have Deathrite, etc.

-Matt

[aluisiocsantos]

I like your idea for fixing our mana wreck, but remembering jund in modern plays with white, and has great results, we just got notice of a White card that happens to annoy a lot of blue decks, by turning Brainstorm into a put 2 cards on the top of the library card. I think it's worth a chance. No? We improve the match up versus blue decks (and at least half of them uses the new boy in town, TNN) and have yet another weapon vs combo - which Jund sucks versus.

[Amazing Larry]

I like your idea for fixing our mana wreck, but remembering jund in modern plays with white, and has great results, we just got notice of a White card that happens to annoy a lot of blue decks, by turning Brainstorm into a put 2 cards on the top of the library card. I think it's worth a chance. No? We improve the match up versus blue decks (and at least half of them uses the new boy in town, TNN) and have yet another weapon vs combo - which Jund sucks versus.

I think that running Spirit as a 3 of is a worth a shot. The mana really just needs to be black based. What the Spirit can do for Jund is give us time against combo decks, and for the fair blue decks it's one more threat that they need to deal with, if they're killing her, they're letting Bob, Shaman, or Goyf live. I would try a manabase like this:

3 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Scrublands
4 Grove
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland

This allows us to fetch each of our duals no real need for Savannah as we would only really be running three White cards maindeck. This is the same manabase I run currently just replacing a basic Forest and Swamp with the two Scrublands. The only problem with this is that it will make us more susceptible to Blood Moon decks, but it might just increase our game vs combo. This is definitely worth testing out. Also the possibility of running Zealous Persecution and Lingering Souls somewhere in the 75 could be a nice perk.

[Lemnear]

Congratz on your attempt to push the deck ... back into the deck development section

[sdematt]

I like your idea for fixing our mana wreck, but remembering jund in modern plays with white, and has great results, we just got notice of a White card that happens to annoy a lot of blue decks, by turning Brainstorm into a put 2 cards on the top of the library card. I think it's worth a chance. No? We improve the match up versus blue decks (and at least half of them uses the new boy in town, TNN) and have yet another weapon vs combo - which Jund sucks versus.

Modern doesn't have Wasteland.

-Matt

[Esper3k]

Modern doesn't have Wasteland.

-Matt

^^^ This.

Stifle is kind of a thing in Legacy too.

[aluisiocsantos]

LOL

let's just stick to dying horribly without trying.

[sdematt]

LOL

let's just stick to dying horribly without trying.

Well, I'm not saying that. Please do test it and tell us what you think, but I'm predicting that it may not be the droids your looking for, at least across the entire metagame or a broad metagame, at say, an SCG. I'm not telling you the idea is crap, I'm saying with the Legacy format as it is, it may not be as useful as we think.

I mean, we could all be wrong and you could be right, so please, do test. I wasn't trying to come off as dismissive of your ideas.

-Matt

[Amazing Larry]

Well, I'm not saying that. Please do test it and tell us what you think, but I'm predicting that it may not be the droids your looking for, at least across the entire metagame or a broad metagame, at say, an SCG. I'm not telling you the idea is crap, I'm saying with the Legacy format as it is, it may not be as useful as we think.

I mean, we could all be wrong and you could be right, so please, do test. I wasn't trying to come off as dismissive of your ideas.

-Matt

I don't think you came off as dismissive of his idea. I think that it is rather exciting to finally get another legacy viable creature and I think the first reaction for many is to try and cram it into our pet decks. It also does seem to fill weak spot that Jund has which is combo, acting as a pseudo-Chains on legs with 3 power. In my experience with this deck, Chains has been one of my favorite tools to combat unfair strategies and to be able to maindeck a similar card is tempting. Though, the idea of splashing white in legacy Jund may ultimately prove to be stretching things too thin, it's worth a shot. I can definitely see why people would have their doubts.

[o_boogie]

From my experience the worst combo matchup is Sneak and Show. Spirit may shut off cantrips and Griselbrand, but the fourth color exposes the mana base to Blood Moon (commonly boarded in for this matchup). Furthermore, Sneak also boards in Pyroclasm which would easily kill Spirit. Thus, Spirit does not really improve the matchup but makes any matchup against decks running Wasteland and Blood Moon worse.

Spirit may help a lot against other combo match ups like High Tide, ANT, and Omnishow, but there are other cards that have a similar effect and do not weaken the mana base, like Chains and Thorn.

[sawatarix]

Why do you hamstring your manabase (which is already bad) by splashing a 4th colour for that spirit if you have access to chains of mephistoles which does almost the same?
Unlike RUG or other blue Deck we can't manipulate our topdecks (we only have 1-2 libraries) and fix our manabase.
There will be awkward moments where you will have srubland and badlands on board and a hand full of goyfs,libraries and bloodbraid elves in hand.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Lemnear]

Punishing Maverick has already troubles getting double black for a turn 2 Hymn or doing so without locking you out from other plays later on. If you need a whooping 4 colors to have a shot at beating certain combo decks, something is fishy. I doubt it's manageable to play Punishing Fire anlongside Hymn and white Hatebears. Moreover, Spirit of the Labyrinth is pretty much the worst hatebear to disrupt combo. If you want to push your combo matchup, run Mindbreak Trap alongside Thoughtseize and Hymn in JUND or switch to Junk

[sdematt]

Junk would love to have more players, but you have to play a little tighter to get those wins. Can't rely on Punishing Fires to carry you with that deck :cool:

Has anyone been playing the Chains in the side recently? Maybe I'm not playing against enough Combo to miss it, but I own two copies, so any thoughts here?

-Matt

[pjetr0]

Junk would love to have more players, but you have to play a little tighter to get those wins. Can't rely on Punishing Fires to carry you with that deck :cool:

Has anyone been playing the Chains in the side recently? Maybe I'm not playing against enough Combo to miss it, but I own two copies, so any thoughts here?

-Matt

The power of chains depends on the type of combo deck. It is excellent against show and tell and high tide, maybe 50:50 against elves (as long as it eliminates glimpse effect). The impact on TES and ANT combo is very low. They use brainstorm, ponder, preordain only during 1st-3rd turn to set up combo, usually. Then they win with or without ad nauseam. Chains card has no effect on ad nauseam. Therefor it is slow in this case, probably you should be able to cast spells with higher impact on play.

Pjetr0

[anakyn]

Junk would love to have more players, but you have to play a little tighter to get those wins. Can't rely on Punishing Fires to carry you with that deck :cool:

Has anyone been playing the Chains in the side recently? Maybe I'm not playing against enough Combo to miss it, but I own two copies, so any thoughts here?

-Matt


I always kept one or two Chains in my Jund sideboard since I sleeved the deck. Right now I have just once because I wanted to try Explosives, so I replaced the 2nd Chain with it.
They are extremely good and they can be used also in non-combo matchups like BUG and Enchantress.

Even if now that deck seems dead, it's funny to play Chains vs High Tide, because usually landing one of them forces a concession from the opponent.

Sometimes I even side a single Chain vs tempo decks to negate their cantrips when both decks are in topdeck mode, but that's debatable.

[Mkr]

If you want to have a good combo matchup... don't play Jund. :smile:

Right now I have a combination of Duress, Pyroblast and Revokers on the board to help fight off combo. Sometimes I get cute and add Slaughter Games or Chains. But really, the best you can do is to get in early discard and just hope they don't have the nuts. :laugh:

[sawatarix]

Revoker seems nice,yesterday i also thought about putting it in my RUG sideboard for the next GPT Paris to fight Sneak Attack and LED Decks.

Slaughter Games looks cute.
My friend won a GPT Paris last week with Jund Nic Fit (which is kind of Junds big brother) and played Slaughter Games in the Sideboard.
Well he defeated Sneakshow in the semifinals by using it.
Just try it,seems good !



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[o_boogie]

Planning on playing Jund at the SCG Open this weekend. While playing a stock main deck, here is the sideboard I am considering:

4 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Grafdigger's Cage

Some other cards I am also considering are Ensnaring Bridge (for Reanimator, Sneak and Show, and Dark Depths); Duress (more discard for combo); Pithing Needle (good catchall); and Chains of Mephistopheles (for combo and decks with a lot of cantrips or card drawing).

If anyone has feedback or suggestions I would appreciate it.

[sdematt]

Post the stock maindeck.

-Matt

[o_boogie]

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

3 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

1 Life from the Loam

1 Sylvan Library

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

[Arsenal]

Revoker seems nice,yesterday i also thought about putting it in my RUG sideboard for the next GPT Paris to fight Sneak Attack and LED Decks.

Slaughter Games looks cute.
My friend won a GPT Paris last week with Jund Nic Fit (which is kind of Junds big brother) and played Slaughter Games in the Sideboard.
Well he defeated Sneakshow in the semifinals by using it.
Just try it,seems good !



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

Nic Fit though is able to vomit out an obscene amount of mana relatively early, making a 4cc Sorcery fairly easy to cast while it still matters. Jund typically would be able to cast it by turn 3 which may be too late versus Sneak & Show. Idk, seems okay-ish for regular Jund, but you're right, seems really good in Jund Nic Fit.

____________________________________

o_boogie

I'd go -1 LftL, +1 Maelstrom Pulse for the maindeck. I understand the allure of Wasteland + LftL, especially with 18-20 non-basic land Delver decks at an all time high, but I believe the ability to Maelstrom Pulse away Equipment, JACE (big one) and anything else is far better for game 1 than a specific Waste-lock strategy is.

Also, I'd go -1 Krosan Grip, +1 Ancient Grudge in your board. Enchantments aren't really a big thing in Legacy right now (Miracles only), and I think Ancient Grudge's cheaper cost + Flashback opportunity is better than Krosan Grip's 3cc uncounterability. I know people view 1 Ancient Grudge as 2 Ancient Grudges, but considering that 1 of those may be countered and SFM-TNN decks can have 3 Equipments postboard (Jitte, Batterskull, SoFaF) versus us, I'd want 2 Ancient Grudge and see how many times I actually get to use the full "4" from them.

[AlbyLegacy]

MTG Legacy: Goblins VS Punishing Jund

GAME1

http://youtu.be/tfkDdjbuTkg

GAME2,3

http://youtu.be/TaDwYfsy0pk

[razvan]

I tried fitting white for Stoneforge Mystic many times. SFM is still probably one of the best cards in the game, and that would fix so many issues! Jeebus, would that fix so many issues.

It hasn't worked sadly :( You are even more screwed against Delver. The rest of the match-ups, the rather questionable manabase isn't really an issue, especially if you remove Punishing Fire. That route could be possible.

Spirit is exciting, but not for this deck. We don't really have too many issues with control, and combo, well, still doesn't help address the biggest issues, but it could help. It's not wrong per se to try it, but Delver match-ups will be an even bigger clusterfuck.

I do like the Urborg idea. It's actually pretty sweet.

[anakyn]

You are even more screwed against Delver.
[...]
Delver match-ups will be an even bigger clusterfuck.


Honestly, I don't find Delver matchups to be so hard.
From my experience, Canadian is the worst of them because it can prey on our fragile manabase (Stifle hurts) but still slightly favorable; other Delver decks like Patriot and Team America usually don't play Stifle, and IMHO this makes them easier since we can play our mana with less pressure and develop our plan until we reach mid-game, where we are stronger than them.

Of course both Patriot and Team America are still problematic, especially because of cards like RIP, Batterskull and Tombstalker, but we have a lot of answer to them, while sometimes a single Stifle on a fetchland can ruin our entire gameplan.

[Kihashi]

I forgot to post my results from SCG Columbus XD

I ended up going 4-4 with the following:


2 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Dark Confidant
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
2 Sylvan Library
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Bloodbraid Elf

Sideboard:

2 Duress
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Umezawa's Jitte




I will post a more in depth list of what I played a little later when I find my notes.

I *did* get a lot of compliments on my The Source playmat while I was there, including from Jeff Hoogland *swoon*.

[halcyonanon]

As my first post, I'd like to get some opinions on the decklist I plan on taking to this weekend's SCG Open in Nashville.

Lands - 24
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Marsh Flats
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Forest

Creatures - 15
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Instants - 7
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire

Sorcery - 10
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Planeswalker - 4
4 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard - 15
2 Golgari Charm
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge

The maindeck is pretty much the same as the one Cory Teran finished 2nd in SCG Las Vegas with the only difference being I'm running 3 bloodstained mires and 1 marsh flats instead of a 2-2 split. This is due to availability only.

The sideboard is similar with a few alterations.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

PS - Re: links to cards - since this is my first post, I'm not aware of how to do such a thing.

[o_boogie]

List seems reasonable. One problem with going all-in on 2CC removal spells (PFire and Abrupt Decay) is you subject yourself to having a rough time against a Mother of Runes or Goblin Lackey (when you are are on the draw). If you do not feel like including Lightning Bolt I would at a minimum consider cutting a land to add either: Grim Lavamancer or Sylvan Library or Life from the Loam. Some other things to consider by not running Bolt is the Delver matchups becomes slightly worse and your clock is a bit slower (which is relevant, if for example, your opponent wins through casting Ad Nauseam).

Regarding the sideboard, I would absolutely cut the Engineered Explosives. It is pretty bad to cascade into EE with Bloodbraid when you needed it to be at anything higher than 0. There are myriad options you could run in place of EE that would work well depending on the meta: Chains of Mephistopheles, Maelstrom Pulse, Krosan Grip, Diabolic Edict, Ensnaring Bridge, Life from the Loam, Toxic Deluge, Massacre, Pyroblast, Jitte, Nihil Spellbomb, etc.

[halcyonanon]

List seems reasonable. One problem with going all-in on 2CC removal spells (PFire and Abrupt Decay) is you subject yourself to having a rough time against a Mother of Runes or Goblin Lackey (when you are are on the draw). If you do not feel like including Lightning Bolt I would at a minimum consider cutting a land to add either: Grim Lavamancer or Sylvan Library or Life from the Loam. Some other things to consider by not running Bolt is the Delver matchups becomes slightly worse and your clock is a bit slower (which is relevant, if for example, your opponent wins through casting Ad Nauseam).

Regarding the sideboard, I would absolutely cut the Engineered Explosives. It is pretty bad to cascade into EE with Bloodbraid when you needed it to be at anything higher than 0. There are myriad options you could run in place of EE that would work well depending on the meta: Chains of Mephistopheles, Maelstrom Pulse, Krosan Grip, Diabolic Edict, Ensnaring Bridge, Life from the Loam, Toxic Deluge, Massacre, Pyroblast, Jitte, Nihil Spellbomb, etc.

Alright, after taking this into consideration and hearing the opinion of another local that has fooled around with the deck, I have taken out 1 Badlands and 1 Abrupt Decay from my maindeck and replaced them with 2 Lightning Bolts.

The sideboard saw me remove the 2 Engineered Explosives and replace them with the 1 Abrupt Decay from the main and 1 Diabolic Edict.

Fishing with the deck, albeit not indicative of interactions, seemed to work a little better with one fewer land.

[aluisiocsantos]

I'd definately try fitting at least one Sylvan Library.

[halcyonanon]

I'd definately try fitting at least one Sylvan Library.


I put the Badlands back in and took out 1 swamp to tinker with the manabase and fix red mana for added bolts. Regarding Sylvan Library, I decided to cut 1 IoK and put in 1 library in its place. That way I keep a heavy discard package with topdeck manipulation.

I'm still not sold on the sideboard though. I don't have much knowledge of the meta to expect in Nashville, but for whatever reason, I'm not convinced on the Scavenging Ooze.

[Flopnuts72]

I put the Badlands back in and took out 1 swamp to tinker with the manabase and fix red mana for added bolts. Regarding Sylvan Library, I decided to cut 1 IoK and put in 1 library in its place. That way I keep a heavy discard package with topdeck manipulation. I'm still not sold on the sideboard though. I don't have much knowledge of the meta to expect in Nashville, but for whatever reason, I'm not convinced on the Scavenging Ooze. Ooze is good in the mirror for getting punishing fires and shrinking goyfs need be. It's good against rug delver not to mention all of these loam dark depths decks running around! He can help gain life in burn match a bit and the obviously against the grave decks and snapcaster Mage. I've seen a rise in grave decks loam/dredge/reanimate I would not leave home without one! Good luck!

[aluisiocsantos]

Played a 10 man today with the current list:

3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Diabolic Edict

1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Badlands
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
1 Mountain
1 Maelstrom Pulse

SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer

i've been meaning to play a list without Punishing Fire but with Edicts, such is my hate for TNN, lol

I did terribly but half of my losses was due to bad matchup.

Round 1 was vs a Shardless Bug with True Name Nemesises, won the first game and lost the other games. First game saw me with 3 Bobs, and I always had a response to - with that many removals nothing really stays on the table. I don't remember g2 very well except it was fucking long, around 25 minutes long - Oh and I remember his active Scavenging Ooze owned me. When g3 started I started getting a little nervous, afraid of ending up not finishing in time and did many many missplays, such as mistakenly opting to not make a 1 Counter Liliana to discard, because of having good cards in hand (1 thoughtseize and Maelstrom) but then next turn he plays TNN, and I start seriously losing. Another mistake was like, seeing him with Creeping Tar Pit, and I dont using my wasteland. Oh well -

Liliana, Decay, Bolts and Diabolic Edicts really helped through the matches, even if I died in the end, due to playing badly.

Round 2 was Deadguy Ale, and I won 2 of 3 games. I dont remember much on how the games were, but I remember I killed him in the last game with 3 Bolts straight to the head, and that Golgari Charm did all the dirty work for me dealing with tokens.

Round 3 was TES. won the first game - He adnauseums and cant complete the math, being left with 5 hp. In my turn i Bolt him and used Shaman's instant removals for the kill. G2 I use many discards, but since he started off, he hides all the important cards when I Thoughtseize him and later on gets able to combo. G3 I keep a slower hand - no turn 1 discards, but with a Hymn to Tourach and Liliana to boot. He turns1 combo into Empty the Warrens and I hope for a top draw into Golgari Charm or Pulse but end up dying.

Round 4 was High Tide. I manage to discard one card from him, but get my second discard Flusterstormed. He combos upon reaching 4 lands.
G2 has me discarding and using Liliana on him. In fact, enough to use her ultimate and divide his lands into 2, which gave me time to play a Tarmogoyf and beat him down to 6 hp before he comboes again. I leave 2 manas open in the hopes of getting two bolts in the middle of his Time Spiral madness, andend up with a REB in hand, but it also gets flusterstormed - Brainfrost!

So as a closing comment, I ended up 1-3, but I think I like this approach with the Edicts (I nickname this build Diabolic Jund ha!) and caring less to pinpointing with Punishing Fire. It did pretty well in the fair matches, having in mind the amount of teenage mutant ninja merfolk being played - AND I think it could improve results vs Reanimator/Sneak Show as a sideeffect. Oh, and did I mention it also kills Batterskull tokens?
I still have to test it more throughly though. For example, right now I think FOUR Edicts might be too much, so maybe I'd switch the fourth DE for a fourth A.Decay. My brother suggests maybe using 2 main deck and 2 sideboard.. Also considering having one Grim Lavamancer maindeck!

Also, I just ordered Chains of Mephistopheles on ebay, let's see how this goes.

[Griselpuff]

Hey all,

Check out my new Spirit Jund list:

www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27568-Spirit-Jund&p=791826

I think the white splash has been fantastic for me, and it's been doing so well for me in testing that I was going to put Team America aside and play it in Somerset. Unfortunately, the weather won't cooperate.

[Quantum]

Just got going on legacy again (former Death and Taxes player) with a big buy-in of all the staples I've seen with in the Jund deck. The card advantage is degenerate with Punishing Fire, the 1-of Library has been ridiculous in bailing out mulls, and in grindy games, Loam/Wasteland is a house. When the deck works even remotely right, it just feels dirty.

I will say that I've definitely missed a basic mountain more times than I've wanted basic the forest; Punishing Fire is a demanding mistress. Maybe a singleton Taiga is the way to go? Adding Ooze to the SB seems smart, too.

Look forward reading back and contributing going forward!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[razvan]

So Jund stopped being a DTB, and is now just a Deck :).
That is unfortunate, but expected.
It's still one of the best decks to deal with the format, I think, if we can figure out a way to be a bit better vs. RUG.

[aluisiocsantos]

Played a 11 people today with the current deck:

3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Grim Lavamancer

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Badlands
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
1 Mountain

SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Domri Rade

Tried using a few techs - I noticed some UWr use Blood Moon and they don't even run Deathrite Shaman, so why the hell not me, since I don't run Punishing Fire? (and therefore no Groves) But I wasnt able to test it to see how it goes.
Added Domri as a 5th Liliana, but I hadn't had the chance to see how it fared either.

Round 1 vs GB/w
I start off playing Hymn to Tourach which nabs away a Dark Confidant (yes!) but also gets him a Loxodon Smiter :( who ends up swinging for 12 in all! Later on he plays Lingering Souls and flashback and finishes me off.
I board in:
+1 Blood Moon
+2 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+2 Golgari Charm
-3 Hymn to Tourach (due to the hate to Smiters lol)
-3 Thoughtseize
Game 2, I keep a hand with 2 Abrupt Decays, Tarmo I think and 2 BBE. I noticed he hadn't run any wastelands, and decided keeping it. I ADecay i think a Reliquary, and he resolves a Surgical Extraction on it - He sees Blood Moon and makes a comment about how I'm running something annoying. Tarmo gets StP'd, but I manage to deal with his other creatures with Liliana + Edict. i play my first BBE, and it gives me another Tarmo, and he plays double Lingering Souls - and i top draw a Charm, and keep rocking. Next turn I play the other BBE and its game! He sides in again, and I sideout Blood Moon and add the third Edict.
I can't remember G3 very well, but from what my annotations tell me it wasn't very painful to me. He StPs a Confidant and I apparently play several creatures. Win!

Round 2 vs UW Miracles
I don't quite remember how the matches went, but it generally worked like this: I think I'm about to win and when I go for the kill he Sensei Top draws into Entreat the Angels, and beat me on the way back. This is how I sideboarded:
-2 Diabolic Edict
-1 Grim Lavamancer
-1 Wasteland i think
-1 Tarmogoyf i think again.
+2 Pyroblast
+2 Ancient Grudge
+2 Golgari Charm (for the Counterbalance)

After my first loss, I get another Counterbalance deck, but a mono blue this time
Round 3 - MonoU Countertop, there wasnt a lot of play in this game per se. He starts the game, plays top turn 1, counterbalance turn 2, and i never get any Abrupt Decays.
G2, I sideboard similarly to the previous match, but also side in +2 Duress. Except that this time I sideout all the wastelands instead of the other stuff.
I keep a very good hand, as I fetch into Bayou and Badlands, he plays Back to Basics, and while i wait till I have enough lands to play my Abrupt Decay and double copies of Golgari Charms, he plays an extra Back to Basics and 2 Counterbalances paired to Top. gg.

Round 4 - UWr Delver
Game 1, I play a turn two liliana and keep his lands at bay with two wastelands, paired with several discards (Running one extra HtT this tournament) and I had little trouble controlling whatever he placed in table.
We didn't play game two since we were both 1-2 he just gave up and went home lol. I'd probably try boarding in Blood Moon and Domri Rade this time though!

So I ended up 2-2!

So taking in consideration this and last week, maybe I should consider running either 1 copy of Pithing Needle (specially with UW Miracles despite dropping from DTB in The Source, being 3 decks at top 8 at the GP - should be seeing more of those again) for Sensei Tops.. And should help on the Storm match up - AND help vs Stone Forge perhaps. Or maybe Null Rod. Thinking, thinking.

I wasn't able to try out Blood Moon, but I see actual potential in it, probably testing out again next weekend. I'm probably doing away with the 3rd Edict though - Maybe I overreacted versus TNN but still I don't think Punishing Fire is a must in the current meta, if we can use Golgari charm and deal with a bunch of dudes at once - like in Elves.

keep on junding!

[Quantum]

Curious about your Domri SB slot. With the main deck creature count being relatively low compared to the std. decks he's usually seen in, what's your goal with him?

I like the flexibility in removal suite, RIP vulnerability, and mana base improvement the removal of the PFire package grants, but am curious how much the card advantage loss felt.

Thanks for the report!

[aluisiocsantos]

Curious about your Domri SB slot. With the main deck creature count being relatively low compared to the std. decks he's usually seen in, what's your goal with him?

I like the flexibility in removal suite, RIP vulnerability, and mana base improvement the removal of the PFire package grants, but am curious how much the card advantage loss felt.

Thanks for the report!

The idea for it was something like an extra Liliana slot, though I must admit it's the most viable only with Tarmogoyfs in play, though if you really need to, you could trade a Dark Confidant for a Stoneforge Mystic, or a flying Delver you aren't able to deal with. Also I figure the first ability should work really well in tandem with Sylvan Library. That said, maybe I should just look for something else to add in its place lol.

While my copy of Chains of Mephistopheles doesn't arrive, I've been meaning to try out a few things. I mentioned last time about Pithing Needle for combo and then I remember it doesn't do shit for mana abilities lol, so I guessss Null Rod it is! It won't stop Batterskull of getting in, but will evade Good-Game Nemesis being equipped...Lotus Petals to be sacrificed, Sensei Tops to be tapped and all sorts of shenanigans. It's tough sideboarding for everything.

Also been thinking of running just one Edict MD and one SB, and getting a fourth Abrupt Decay, specially if the GP gives Miracles a new breath of appearances - And it's extra good vs a fair match which is BUG for us.

[lemariont]

Null Rod is a good hate choise, but doesnt affect planeswalkers or Thespians, pithing needle is more versatile.

[lemariont]

Any idea on how to beat Lands or Thespians decks? ???

[ironclad8690]

You have to use your wastelands very surgically, meaning using it at the right time to barely eek through enough damage. Usually it will target a maze of ith. Sideboarded Surgical Extractions or Extirpates are very good. Hit loam early to shut off their card advantage engine, or p fire or maze of ith. You can aggro them out in some cases, and if you save your deathrite activations you can catch them off guard sometimes.

All of that being said, I still feel as though the matchup is not a good one. Jund depths is one of the worst things you can possibly see across from you.

[lemariont]

You have to use your wastelands very surgically, meaning using it at the right time to barely eek through enough damage. Usually it will target a maze of ith. Sideboarded Surgical Extractions or Extirpates are very good. Hit loam early to shut off their card advantage engine, or p fire or maze of ith. You can aggro them out in some cases, and if you save your deathrite activations you can catch them off guard sometimes.

All of that being said, I still feel as though the matchup is not a good one. Jund depths is one of the worst things you can possibly see across from you.

Im thinking on improve the pairing with the inclusion of a scavenging ooze for one of the four tarmos, and maybe a diabolic edict MD. Thanks for the reply :tongue::tongue::tongue:

[aluisiocsantos]

With Dark Depths and TNN I think it's really healthy to have at least one Diabolic Edict in the whole deck, MD or SB.

[sdematt]

Question for you guys: Since TNN isn't fun for us BGx decks, have you guys considered playing cheaty Jund? As you can see, Miracles has moved, in some cases, to running 1-2 Blast in the main, whether that be for the Miracles mirror/TNN/Jace/Sneak/whatever.

Considering the fact that Bolt doesn't kill TNN (although does provide reach), would you consider Blast as a replacement? Sure, you have hand disruption for TNN, but that doesn't account for the fact that Jund isn't putting up a ton of amazing finishes (BG(non-blue)). Blast still handles Jace, counters TNN, etc. Bolt doesn't necessarily kill Jace (but does handle a Liliana), Bolt kills Deathrite, both kill Delver, but Blast does counter Counterbalance or a Force of Will. I think the flexibility may outweigh the lack of reach. Bolt can be dead against Sneak, but Blast hits Show and Tell.

Plus, if you're still running Fires, you still have that constant direct damage output and handling of smaller creatures.

Maybe something like:

3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Grim Lavamancer


3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Punishing Fires
1 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

1 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
2 golgari Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Pyroblast
+3 Whatevers /sample board mileage may vary obviously

This "preboarding" would allow Jund to clear up some slots in the board for the other non-TNN decks, perhaps.

I know the idea seems VERY slanted in a particular direction, but it seems like Blast MIGHT be less of a liability than Bolt sometimes.

-Matt

[somethingdotdotdot]

I've been toying around with this list and the md has been doing fairly well versus the tnn decks. It plays slower than most of the normal jund lists because it can come back from behind w/ toxic deluge md'd. Deluge is definitely a double-edged sword in a deck like this--but the surprise factor has been amazing. You do need to bait out counterspells from blue decks to get it to stick a lot of times and it can definitely kill you versus delver decks, but it makes tnn and other fair matchups a lot better. Deluge->liliana is pretty disgusting in any matchup where they want to win w/ fair creatures. You can also cascade into it and not kill your own bbe since bbe is still on the stack when deluge resolves.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Liliana of the Veil

3 Bayou
2 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Rakdos Charm
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker

I personally don't like hymn in the deck because BB by t2 is really difficult a lot of games. Its a high power, high variance card with the deck's manabase. SDT over library to reduce life costs for bob to account for the higher life payments w/ deluge in the deck. The 2x bolts are probably the weakest cards in the deck at the moment, but I'm not sure red/pyro are necessarily correct because the deck has no way to get rid of them once they find their way into your hand. I would prefer something 1cc though--the deck already has a lot of 2 drops.

[biglongjohns]

Question for you guys: Since TNN isn't fun for us BGx decks, have you guys considered playing cheaty Jund? As you can see, Miracles has moved, in some cases, to running 1-2 Blast in the main, whether that be for the Miracles mirror/TNN/Jace/Sneak/whatever.

I think this would be awful. The Miracles decks playing maindeck blasts is lame imo but at least they have Brainstorm to get rid of them against non blue decks. With Jund you'll be sitting with those in hand for a while. Also, BBE cascading into blast against a non-blue deck or when you have nothing to target seems terrible. It would really take away from the consistency of this deck.

[sdematt]

I think this would be awful. The Miracles decks playing maindeck blasts is lame imo but at least they have Brainstorm to get rid of them against non blue decks. With Jund you'll be sitting with those in hand for a while. Also, BBE cascading into blast against a non-blue deck or when you have nothing to target seems terrible. It would really take away from the consistency of this deck.

I think you definitely need a certain metagame for this to even be a consideration, for sure. There WILL be times that the card is a do-nothing instead of a mediocre do something. I'm just brainstorming here. Miracles only plays 1-2 in the main, and it will always be the feel bads to have it against a deck where you don't need it, but them's the breaks. You're trying to outweigh those situations where the card will be awful with situations where the card will be spectacular. Ex. Against TNN, Against Show and Tell, and against Miracles. BBE'ing into Blast is a little terrible, but it is just about as bad as when you cascade into a Thoughtseize into a known hand of nothing/empty hand. It happens.

Again, I'm really just musing to see IF it's something to get Jund back on the wagon, or if it is still strictly correct in all situations to never have Blasts maindeck.

-Matt

[nedleeds]

It's just a gamble. You take it to a SCG where it's 70% blue and hope to get some good matches. Nothing wrong with that. Only thing I might say is Miracles can get away with main REBs since ... well they play Brainstorm and Jace.

[WeatherseedMage]

I took 23rd at SCG Atlanta with this list

lands
1 taiga
1 swamp
2 badlands
3 bloodstained mire
3 wooded foothills
4 verdant catacombs
2 overgrown tombs
4 wasteland
4 grove of the burnwillows

creatures
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
4 deathrite shaman
3 bloodbraid elf

spells
1 sylvan library
3 punishing fire
3 thoughtseize
3 hymn to tourach
3 abrupt decay
4 liliana of the veil
1 inquisition of kozilek
2 lightning bolt
1 diabolic edict

sideboard
2 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
1 hymn to tourach
2 duress
1 chains of Mephistopheles
1 rakdos charm
1 ancient grudge
2 grafdigger's cage
1 golgari charm
1 umezawa's jitte
2 toxic deluge

My first time piloting Jund at a larger event. Really only like the third time I've taken it to a competitive event, so I am super excited about my finish.

I faced:

1 - BUG Delver: 2-1
2 - Merfolk: 2-0
3 - Esper Deathblade 2-1
4 - Shardless BUG 1-0 (This was the guy who took 8th, I was stupid and late for a game loss and he crushed me G2)
5 - UWR Miracles 2-1
6 - UWR Miracles 1-1-1 (Both of us were one draw away from winning the game. Neither could get there)
7 -Elves 0-2 (Fast combo G1, terrible decision G2. You lose and you learn though)
8 - BUG Delver 2-1 (lots of landscrew here. He won G2 via Hymn hitting 2 lands. I killed his lands and he didn't draw many G1 and G3)
9 - UWR Miracles 2-0

For me, it was Grindfest 2014. The Merfolk and the Elves matches were my shortest, and I made a conscious effort to slow my play down and not make many bad mistakes. They were 25-30 minute matches, and I would say that most of the others were 40+ when we went to G3. It didn't help that I faced 3 Miracles decks that day for my grind situation either.

Going forward, I think that I am unhappy with 4 Grove of the Burnwillows and I really wish that Jund had a worthwhile manland that produced BG. As it is, I think that I will try out a 3 Grove/1 Raging Ravine mix and see how that works. Has anyone else ever done that?

If I had Bayous available, obviously those would be better. I made jokes about it constantly throughout the day. Rakdos Charm was a spot filler really, a hedge against graveyard decks and a bad Storm answer (hit them for X = Goblins). Is there a better hate card to put there that can be used in a couple matchups?

I didn't face any Depths decks, but having the Diabolic Edict in the main really made me feel better about that prospect. I meant to find room in the sideboard for a second one, but I forgot about it and just went with what I had. The Edict came up in G1 against the Esper Deathblade player and I almost was able to win through his first TNN, but he landed another one before the game was over and was able to get G1. My sideboard really came out for that matchup though, so that was good. I am thinking about dropping the Punishing Fires package actually, though when it was good, it was amazing. I boarded out of it a lot, and then didn't love my left over land base. What do most people switch over to if they're not using a Punishing Fires build? I do love the way it sets the deck/pilot up in G1 to be against a fair deck though.

re: REB/Pyroblast mainboard: I am not a fan of because they don't hit two colors. Since it's so dialed in on U, it just seems like it really ought to live in the sideboard. On the other hand, having a few key counterspells and a host of discard spells would make our combo match up pretty strong along with giving some more breathing room G1 against miracles. However, with a heavy discard suite, I don't think that Miracles is unfavorable, it's just long and grindy.

[ironclad8690]

I took 23rd at SCG Atlanta with this list

lands
1 taiga
1 swamp
2 badlands
3 bloodstained mire
3 wooded foothills
4 verdant catacombs
2 overgrown tombs
4 wasteland
4 grove of the burnwillows

creatures
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
4 deathrite shaman
3 bloodbraid elf

spells
1 sylvan library
3 punishing fire
3 thoughtseize
3 hymn to tourach
3 abrupt decay
4 liliana of the veil
1 inquisition of kozilek
2 lighting bolt
1 diabolic edict

sideboard
2 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
1 hymn to tourach
2 duress
1 chains of Mephistopheles
1 rakdos charm
1 ancient grudge
2 grafdigger's cage
1 golgari charm
1 umezawa's jitte
2 toxic deluge

My first time piloting Jund at a larger event. Really only like the third time I've taken it to a competitive event, so I am super excited about my finish.

I faced:

1 - BUG Delver: 2-1
2 - Merfolk: 2-0
3 - Esper Deathblade 2-1
4 - Shardless BUG 1-0 (This was the guy who took 8th, I was stupid and late for a game loss and he crushed me G2)
5 - UWR Miracles 2-1
6 - UWR Miracles 1-1-1 (Both of us were one draw away from winning the game. Neither could get there)
7 -Elves 0-2 (Fast combo G1, terrible decision G2. You lose and you learn though)
8 - BUG Delver 2-1 (lots of landscrew here. He won G2 via Hymn hitting 2 lands. I killed his lands and he didn't draw many G1 and G3)
9 - UWR Miracles 2-0

For me, it was Grindfest 2014. The Merfolk and the Elves matches were my shortest, and I made a conscious effort to slow my play down and not make many bad mistakes. They were 25-30 minute matches, and I would say that most of the others were 40+ when we went to G3. It didn't help that I faced 3 Miracles decks that day for my grind situation either.

Going forward, I think that I am unhappy with 4 Grove of the Burnwillows and I really wish that Jund had a worthwhile manland that produced BG. As it is, I think that I will try out a 3 Grove/1 Raging Ravine mix and see how that works. Has anyone else ever done that?

If I had Bayous available, obviously those would be better. I made jokes about it constantly throughout the day. Rakdos Charm was a spot filler really, a hedge against graveyard decks and a bad Storm answer (hit them for X = Goblins). Is there a better hate card to put there that can be used in a couple matchups?

I didn't face any Depths decks, but having the Diabolic Edict in the main really made me feel better about that prospect. I meant to find room in the sideboard for a second one, but I forgot about it and just went with what I had. The Edict came up in G1 against the Esper Deathblade player and I almost was able to win through his first TNN, but he landed another one before the game was over and was able to get G1. My sideboard really came out for that matchup though, so that was good. I am thinking about dropping the Punishing Fires package actually, though when it was good, it was amazing. I boarded out of it a lot, and then didn't love my left over land base. What do most people switch over to if they're not using a Punishing Fires build? I do love the way it sets the deck/pilot up in G1 to be against a fair deck though.

re: REB/Pyroblast mainboard: I am not a fan of because they don't hit two colors. Since it's so dialed in on U, it just seems like it really ought to live in the sideboard. On the other hand, having a few key counterspells and a host of discard spells would make our combo match up pretty strong along with giving some more breathing room G1 against miracles. However, with a heavy discard suite, I don't think that Miracles is unfavorable, it's just long and grindy.

Nice job on the finish!

I love seeing people using shocks and doing well.

You can look at the Grand Prix Denver lists for examples of "Non-Punishing" jund decklists; such as those piloted by Reid Duke/Pat Cox/and Josh Ravitz.

I think that diabolic edicts are a great addition as well.

[razvan]

Nice job. I didn't run Punishing Fires for a while, instead running 3 Strangleroot Geist. The card was fun and it was a pain for most things to deal with. 4 Grove is too much, I think 3 is where you want to be at.

As for Matt's suggestion, I run 3 Pyroblasts SB, but I wouldn't bother with them MD. You give up way too much against non-blue, mirrors, and even other Blade decks to have them.

Lightning Bolt is still one of the best cards in the deck. I am never sorry to see it, so even if doing the switch, I wouldn't take Bolt out.

But TNN is an issue, and I think your suggestion of Edicts, or even Toxic Deluge, is better.

As for Jund Depths, yes, not having on-demand wastelands will be a problem, but we still have Deathrite Shamans for their long game. It's not a pleasant match-up at all.

[WeatherseedMage]

The reason I cut Lightning Bolt down to 2x was because of the punishing fires package and TNN combined. I figured that a) Bolt is weak to TNN and b) Fires deals with fair decks as well or better than Bolt does vs fair decks and cutting it down to 2x gave me 2 more spots for discard, which I used to fit in 3 hymns and 3 abrupt decays (went from 2/2 to 3/3, was very happy with those numbers as the day went on).

I am switching to 3 Grove/1 Ravine for now. I am excited about trying it though.

Yeah, I believe that I got the Edict idea from someone earlier in the thread. Toxic Deluge is awesome vs TNN, Elves, Sneak and Show if you get a turn, and Stoneforge, but it has 0 game against Depths unless you don't take any damage and would also like to lose.

Is Ancient Grudge too good as a Batterskull/Jitte killer to remove?

[ironclad8690]

Played in a 4 round local tourny last night, and did quite poorly.

1st round: Death and Taxes

Game 1 I completely slaughter him as is expected in this matchup.

Games 2 and 3 I hymn wilt leaf into play and he topdecks a stream of creatures, none of which can I kill and he just stomps me.

0-1

Round 2: Lands

Game 1 he gets a marit lage pretty early on and there is nothing I can do.

Game 2 I make a mistake by abrupt decaying a mox diamond rather than playing a tarmogoyf, and he has just enough time to intuition for 3 Maze of Iths and slows me down to a halt. I also mistakenly sided out punishing fire instead of Hymn to Tourach, and it ended up hurting (this guy was at 2 for much of the second half of the game and had a chalice on 1 stopping my bolts). I had some rather underwhelming bloodbraid cascades as well, like into a surgical extraction when only an exploration was in his yard. He eventually gets marit lage again and kills me.

0-2

Round 3: Merfolk

Game 1 I am overwhelmed by lords, can't assemble punishing lock in time.

Game 2 and 3 play out more like usually, punishing fire mows everything down and my guys beat face.

1-2

Round 4: Manaless Dredge :(

Game 1 I get a DRS on turn 2 (damn you chancellor of the annex!) and I keep eating stuff, but his dredges are pretty live and he gets flayer into Grave troll FTW

Game 2 I get an early deathrite and he gets unlucky on his dredges, I play an engineered plague on Horror to stop ichorids, there is nothing he can really do for this game.

Game 3 I exile 3 bridges from below, come very close to winning, but then he gets a perfect dredge to give him 3 creatures to sac to dread return flayer, uses the zombies and the flayer to reanimate another flayer for lethal damage.

1-3

I am confident that this deck has what it takes, I just made a couple of mistakes and had some bad luck.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Played in a 4 round local tourny last night, and did quite poorly.

1st round: Death and Taxes

Game 1 I completely slaughter him as is expected in this matchup.

Games 2 and 3 I hymn wilt leaf into play and he topdecks a stream of creatures, none of which can I kill and he just stomps me.

0-1



I generally board out all discard against Death and Taxes (and most aggro decks, honestly). My board plan would be something like this:

-4 Thoughtseize
-3 Hymn

+3 Golgari Charm
+ However many Ancient Grudge, Maelstrom Pulse, Edicts, Grips etc. you run

Don't give your opponent outs (Wilt-Leaf) to what should be stomps.

[ironclad8690]

I generally board out all discard against Death and Taxes (and most aggro decks, honestly). My board plan would be something like this:

-4 Thoughtseize
-3 Hymn

+3 Golgari Charm
+ However many Ancient Grudge, Maelstrom Pulse, Edicts, Grips etc. you run

Don't give your opponent outs (Wilt-Leaf) to what should be stomps.

Nice! Thanks for the tips. Do you use lili very conservatively to avoid them dropping a wilt leaf?

[Nuke is Good]

I was going to use this deck set in SCG Somerset then the cancellation happened.

3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Swamp
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Wasteland
1 Sylvan Library
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Life from the Loam

2 Pithing Needle
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Extirpate
2 Pyroblast
1 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Umezawa's Jitte


I just need some feedback on the deck. On unknown meta's I prefer to have loam mainboarded since I'm more likely to run into decks that I can wasteland lock than decks that I can use jitte on. The two main points of that were suggested to me by a good friend were:

1. Remove the Leylines and add in 2 Chains of Mephistopheles and probably another Pyroblast or REB
2. Move Loam to sideboard to add another wasteland/Remove one Grove for a wasteland





Nice! Thanks for the tips. Do you use lili very conservatively to avoid them dropping a wilt leaf?

I'm conservative with Lili on G1 after I realize they dropped a wilt leaf/obstinate baloth or the like the on G2 board in the removal so I can be more aggressive.

[Neffy]

I am going all in on Jund atm, and will be playing a 24 man tournament soon.
My list is generally
3 BBE
4 Tarmo
4 DRS
4 Bob
2 Bolt
3 P.Fire
4 Decay
1 Pulse
4 Liliana
3 Hymn
4 Thoughtseize
3 Waste
2 Bayou
3 Badlands
4 Grove
4 Verdant
4 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Sylvan Library

I am considering going down 1 Grove, to fit in more action. Maybe a second pulse against stupid angel tokens.

My board is:
3 Swan song
1 Underground sea
2 Pyroblast
1 Duress
2 Choke
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Grafdigger
1 Golgari Charm
1 Eng. Explosives

The swan songs have been very nice and the swan is easily killed with p.fire. The chokes are for RUG, BUG, Esper and Miracle match ups which happens often. I like to use them and Chains to benefit from not using cantrips and islands.
Regarding D&T match ups, I also board out all hymns and TS, but I will be keeping Liliana as additional removal and Goyf boost. :)

There is a discussing, again, in the Team America threat, if sinkhole is worth running. Do you guys think there is sense in running 4 of in this deck? Going LD is the plan? Hymn and Lily discard also helps this plan. Thoughts?

[Gunz24]

I recently top 4'd a StarCity Super IQ with Jund. My list is here:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=64760

Feel free to ask any questions and also provide any feedback. I'm always open to suggestions.

-Zach

[Nuke is Good]

I recently top 4'd a StarCity Super IQ with Jund. My list is here:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=64760

Feel free to ask any questions and also provide any feedback. I'm always open to suggestions.

-Zach

Gives me hope that Jund is still a good deck. I always like asking how people use their sideboard.

Can you explain some of your SB choices?
Is grafdigger's cage/tormod's enough for Dredge/Reanimator?
You miss life from the loam and pithing needle? I notice those are missing.

[Kl'rt]

Gives me hope that Jund is still a good deck.


I truly believe Jund is very much still a good deck now. Look at the current DTBs: TNN decks, aggro-control decks, Miracle and Sneak Show. In my experience, Jund has good game vs tempo decks; it's all about surviving the early game, stabilizing, and then overwhelming with card advantage. Jund is black based and so has ways to deal with TNN (Liliana main, various SB options). Should be slightly favoured vs Miracle too, which is just exploding in popularity since GP Paris. Check out the most recent SCG top 16.

It's always been that Jund struggles against combo, and that's why Neffy's list intrigues me so much. I've always had a difficult time fighting Sneak Show, so the sideboard UG Sea and Swan Songs seem genius to me.

Neffy, from what I understand, Team America uses either Sinkholes or Winter Orb to fight control decks because they can struggle against them. Good Miracle players seem to think Team America is a very good matchup for them (e.g. Einherjer). Since Jund already fights Miracle pretty well, I'm not sure if Sinkholes are worth it.

[Mortox]

=
Is grafdigger's cage/tormod's enough for Dredge/Reanimator?

Don't forget 4x Deathrite Shaman.

There are some players who believe that if you run 4 maindeck DRS you need nothing else against graveyard-based strategies. I think a Grafdiggers and Tormods here is more than enough.

[o_boogie]

From my experience both Dredge and Reanimator are winnable with both Tormod's Crypt and Grafdigger's Cage, but Surgical Extraction makes those matchups much easier when you are on the draw. Most of the time Jund is going to lose game 1 to Dredge and Reanimator. That means you are going to be on the play game 2 and on the draw game 3. Those factors need to be considered when choosing your sideboard graveyard hate.

For Dredge, Surgical gives you a means to interact with their graveyard game 3 turn 1 without having any open mana. Although a turn 1 kill is highly unlikely, it is certainly possible that the dredger gets a Narcomaeba in play and sacrifices it to Cabal Therapy removing the Crypt or Cage from your hand. If you have Surgical you can do something before this happens, either just neutering them (e.g., removing Bridge from Below) or slowing them down (e.g., removing Ichorid or a dredge enabler).

For Reanimator, sticking a Cage or Crypt game 2 turn 1 (or a few turns later after slowing them down with discard) is real sweet since either they need to blow it up or just go off through Show and Tell. The latter could be quite difficult since Pyroblast can counter it. However, the downside is similar to Dredge; if you are on the draw you have no way to interact with your opponent. Unlike Dredge, a turn 1 (effective) kill with Reanimator is not out of the question.

I don't think there is a right answer for which graveyard hate you should have, but I find more often than not Surgical Extraction is generally necessary for the tougher matchups.

[razvan]

Zach, I have a few questions.

1) How did the 7 MD discard + 4 Liliana feel?
2) How did the MD Golgari Charm feel?
3) How did Rakdos Charm perform? It's not a bad idea, especially since it can kill artifacts, but the other 2 modes might be lacking.

Also, grats on your performance

[sdematt]

Also, the gent who did well at SCG with Jund - dat Chainer's Edict. I think I talked about it :P

Also, I think Golgari Charm really is a meta call. If you're running into lots of TNN/Elves, it will be a house. Recall that this deck has few ways to meaningfully interact with TNN. It might be prudent to have a true "answer" in the maindeck. A few of the junk players have tried it and really liked it.

-Matt

[Neffy]

Had a 6round tourny yesterday - I went 4-2 which was fair, IMO. I played well i think, few mistakes tho.

Round 1; mono blue counterspells.
G1 i had everything i played countered...
G2 and G3 i won with DRS and P.fire. I have so much removal for his wizards (clique, snap, delver) and plague and double choke helped here. Lily too.
1-0

R2; Omnishow
Worst matchup ever. He goes off with Show and tell and nuke my permanents with emrakul. I scoop. G2 i seize him but he swan songs, and goes off again.
1-1

R3; white stax
Stax is not a big problem as it is threat light, and tangle wire is okay as i just get to establish more lands. I land early DRS and shoots him with p.fires too. Decay helps alot here.
I sit with 2 5/6 goyfs, lily and DRS and he with 2 ensnaring bridge + a lot of stuff. Eventually I ultimate with Lily and he has to choose between all his artifacts vs. all his mana. Being on 10 or something, he chooses wisely to keep the bridges. I have him shot with DRS a few times until i run out of food for shooting - he is at 2. However without lands he cant play his spells, due to Trinisphere and he gets enough cards in hand for DRS to attack him 2 times.
2-1

R4; Jund mirror!
Very fun match. However due to similar decks and fast play we get to a point after i won g2, where neither of us knew who actually one the first game... Very funny, but weird! (and stupid). We get the conclusion that he won, since he started and he started again second game. Anyway, its 1-1 and third game is about who gets a DRS first or p.fire going. He lands DRS, I do too. He goes lily - sac and I lose from here.
2-2

R5; elves
G1 goes loong, with both of us sitting on 2 lands the entire game, no lands i GY and 3 and 2 DRS on board. He eventually gets black and begins shooting me. G2 i kill everything he has, and discards his natural orders. I also land a grafdigger which was nice.
G3 has only few minutes on clock. It goes fast and i land both chains of mephistofeles and creatures. I begin the p.fire engine and keeps him off creatures. at some point i decide to destroy my own Bob and two of his dryad arbors and maelstrom pulse on double visionary. We get to time, and i kill him in my 3.
3-2

R6; 4C bug?
He stifles me and burns my DRS and beats me with TNN. G2 I beat him with DRS and fast creatures. G3 p.fire takes down his creatures and lily and choke stops him completely.
4-2

Great games, and the loss to omnishow is understandable. Kinda sad about the mirror though. Most likely I will take the deck to a larger tournament this weekend.

Thanks for reading.

[helghast101]

My current build for jund I am working on, trying to finalize before I start buying

Critters: 15
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman

Removal: 10
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
4 Lightning Bolt

Discard: 8
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

Planeswalkers: 4
4 Liliana of the Veil

Land: 23
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Sideboard: 15
3 Pyroblast
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Engineer Plague
1 Life from the Loam

[ironclad8690]

Just went 3-1 in the legacy grinder. Beat tin fins, maverick and jund, lost to thopter sword miracles. Feeling good about scgla tomorrow!

[ironclad8690]

Edit: Better report and decklist.

5-4 @ SCG LA Legacy Open

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
3 Badlands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

Sideboard:

3 Duress - Anti Combo/Control.
3 Pyroblast - Counter/Removal for blue cards
3 Engineered Plague - Anti Merfolk, Elves, Humans, and Spirits (Lingering Souls). Also Thopters incidentally
2 Nihil Spellbomb - Anti Dredge, Loam, Reanimator, Jund, RUG Delver, High Tide, Maverick, The Rock.
1 Umezawa's Jitte - Anti Tempo, Anti D&T, Maverick, Jund, Merfolk, Goblins, Elves, Deathblade.
1 Life from the Loam - Anti Tempo, Anti Loam, Anti Midrange
1 Ancient Grudge - Anti Equipment, Anti MUD, Anti Affinity
1 Krosan Grip - Anti Control, Anti Midrange (Equipment Based), Anti Combo (Sneak and Show, Belcher, Omnishow, Etc)

Results:

Round 1: Pox (2-0)
Game 1: He mulligans to 5, I play Turn 1 Deathrite Turn 2 Hymn, it is impossible for him to recover.
Game 2: I get ahead on resources, am able to remove all of his mishra's factories, and exile his bloodghasts with my Deathrite. He slowly loses to an army of tarmogoyf deathrite and Bloodbraid Elf

Round 2: Jund (2-1)
Game 1: He beats me by winning the topdeck war
Game 2: I win with jitte on confidant
Game 3: I win the topdeck war when he draws only lands.

Round 3: Junk (2-1) (Andrew Herbelin 13th)
Game 1: I win with 3 bloodbraids
Game 2: He wins with 3 lingering souls
Game 3: I engineered plague spirits, and win with incremental advantages

Round 4: Rug Delver (2-1)
Game 1: He wins because I punt by maelstrom pulsing away my own tarmogoyf for 1 of his
Game 2: I win by grinding him out
Game 3: I win by grinding him out

Round 5: Sneak and Show (0-2) (Kelvin Young 3rd or 4th, can't remmber)
Game 1: I play a thgouthseize and a liliana, it isn't enough
Game 2: I duress, play liliana he topdecks perfectly and assembles the combo

Round 6: High Tide (1-2)
Game 1: Dark Confidant draws me enough resources to win
Game 2: I scoop when he starts to go off.
Game 3: I mull to 5 (3 land, duress, Confidant). I don't see anything besides lands after getting confidant countered, he naturals into his win.

Round 7: RUG Delver (2-0)
Game 1: I win by grinding
Game 2 I win by grinding

Round 8: Thopter Miracle (0-2)
Game 1: He blood moons early, keeps me off balance enough for him to overwhlem me with naturally drawn thopter sword combo. I should have let him concede when picking up, looking at, and shuffling his deck for an Arid Mesa under blood moon, but I called a judge and they said to just resume the game after putting plains back and putting arid mesa back. He basically got a free shuffle effect which he shouldn't have, which is extremely good when combined with Sensei Top.
Game 2: He blood moons and locks me out of the game, eventually plays batterskull which I can't beat when followuped with sword of feast and famine. Draws his 1 of misdirect when I attempt to Abrupt Decay his bloodmoon he misdirects to my engineered plague.

Round 9: Joe Lossett UWR Miracle (1-2)
Game 1: I win with a timely punishing fire when he was going to lethal me. Lili ultimate basically won this one
Game 2: He terminuses me early, i cannot recover.
Game 3: I make a land tapping mistake and can't pyroblast a snapcaster into brainstorm, which basically sets up his turns to be able to win. He Vensers my liliana making me discard it. I don't really see enough bloodbraids

All in all a good tournament, but I wish I had played a better sideboard. Need more hate for Combo and Miracles.

[KidCosmos]

Also just went 5-4 at SCG LA.


1: Death and Taxes 0-2 lose

Game 1 had to deal with him having: mom, thalia, revoker on my two deathrites, then Brimaz, port locking down my mana; game 2: I hymned him and hit Wilt-leaf… Well, shit. I almost could still win despite my lack of answers. Then he drew the second of the two wilt-leafs he sided in, so it didn't matter anyway.


2: Omni show 0-2 lose

Game 1 I had only one discard spell: not enough. My lili was about to get game 2 under control, but then he topdecked the show and tell.


3: Stoneblade 2-0 (2-1?)

Game 1 I made him discard his only nonland card. Game 2 was close. He had souls tokens with jitte, which was hurting me. Golgari charm helped, but he got another token next turn. Then I had p. fire and was able to recur it triggered by him gaining life with Jitte which he had to do because of how I attacked, and I was able to punishing fire and deathrite activate in response to his life gain to win I think.


4: BUG Delver 2-0 win

Game 1 I hymn him. He soon forces a Lily. And maybe forced something else, too. So I'm already up a few cards. I have the 2nd Lily for this true-name… Wait, I may be describing my other BUG delver round. Probably… Who remembers. Not this guy. And I probably went 2-1 not 2-0 in one of the two delver rounds, forget which.


5: Sneak n' show 2-1 win

Game 1 I look at my 7 and think… "I mean, I need to keep this I'm pretty sure, but I lose if it's combo" (no seize or hymn). I keep, he's on combo. But he can't find what he needs, and I think I did have a Lily in the hand at least. A goyf and another guy or two take him down. Game 2 he opens with leyline of sanctity (my hand has 2 seize and 2 duress, funnn). Then turn 1 Griselbrand off show. I put a suddenly meek-looking confidant into play off show. He draws a lot of cards with ol' grisly and I lose. Game 3 I have a Lili and a Confidant and like 3 Duresses. And a hymn. And surgical extractions on Show and Tell and Griselbrand. So I enjoyed that. Also at one point, I kept making him discard and he drew Emrakul like three times in a row (would then get shuffled back after discarding). Bizarre times.


6: Burn 0-2 lose

Not much I could do here. Even when price only deals 2 to me because I'd fetched basics, I'm still pretty dead. Also, searing blaze is not too bad against me turns out.


7: Miracles 2-0

Was in a good position g1 and held the mana up to decay a potential topdecked RiP since he had helm out; he topdecked it: I decay, won after that. Though his helm activation for 1 did grab him a 4/5 or 5/6 goyf off the top of my deck, to his surprise, too, because didn't actually know what helm did. I had a lily already up a few counters to make him sac it, I think, though. Game 2, golgari charm took care of RiP out of a RiP energy field lock. Otherwise, my cards just answered his cards and I got gradual card advantage through confidants and bloodbraids, even when balance countered a few things g2. Seizing his top g1 when his only other cards were lands and Swords to Plowshares didn't hurt me, either.


8: BUG Delver 2-0 win

I like getting this matchup… Also, yeah, I think I was describing this match when I talked about round 4. Can't remember much about the delver deck I faced round 4… Oh, I do remember in round 8, though, he had like 2 delvers, a tombstalker, and a goyf out after I deluged. But he was at low life, and I had a goyf, confidant, and bloodbraid. His stalker was tapped, and I was able to redblast delver, play bloodbraid (before blast, but irrelevant cascade I think? Dunno), and attack for the win.


9: MUD 1-2 lose

Pretty close in the end, and very good, tense games; Liliana was good to me game 1, as was Confidant. He had double chalice at 1, but it didn't matter much. Game 2, I dealt with his threats in hand and on board, but he ended up drawing a 2nd lodestone golem, and a wurmcoil engine with lightning greaves. Ouch. Game 3 was closer. A metalworker was good to him but cruel for me. A hymn took out a sundering titan and wurmcoil, but he still laid down another wurmcoil and forgemaster, which promptly became a blightsteel. A ratchet bomb from the turn before took out my deathrite aka blocker making me take 11 instead of 9 poision. Liliana on board and in hand, as well as a maelstrom pulse, but alas, couldn't beat his blightsteel+ other artifact creatures.


Mainboard was stock list with 4 groves, 3 wasteland. 4 Lili, 3 hymn, 3 p. fire, 3 bolt, 3 decay, 1 pulse, 1 library (love that card in this deck). And seizes and traditional creature and land base.

Sideboard was:

SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Golgari Charm


Golgari charm was pretty nice. Also topdecked a deluge at one point to kill a true-name and a deathrite, so that was fun; first time playing with that card. And Liliana was also, as usual, awesome.

I like playing against all those fair blue decks, but sometimes less fair decks will just fuck you up. Such is the cost of playing Jund, I guess. Discard's just not always enough. Sometimes you wish you had a force.

Will probably stick with Jund for a bit, but might change it up before I go to the next Open.

[ironclad8690]

Posted a better tournament report above.

[Gunz24]

Hey all sorry I haven't responded life got a bit busy recently. I've made some updates to my Top 4 list. I let a friend borrow my Punishing Jund list for the SCG Invitational this weekend. He's never played the deck in a competitive setting so I made this fairly comprehensive guide to help him with the match-ups I felt were the most relevant at the moment. If you guys like this and want me to do write ups on other match-ups please let me know.

The List:

Main(60):
Creatures (15):
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Eld

Planeswalkers (4):
4 Liliana of the Veil

Spells (18):
1 Sylvan Library
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm

Lands (23):
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard (15):
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
1Toxic Deluge
1 Massacre
1 Tormod's Crypt

Delver Decks:
UWR:
Out: 3 Hymn, 1 G Charm, 1 Pulse
In: 2 Grudge, 1 Massacre, 1 Deluge, 1 Jitte

Keys to the Match: Ancient Grudge is the best value in this match-up. Use your thoughtseizes to shape the early turns and protect your board state, if you can catch an equipment card or a True-Name before it resolves these are prime targets. Massacre is literally a massacre here. They will bring in RIP to handle your Goyfs and Punishing Fires, not back breaking but not great for us either. Be aware.

BUG:
Out: 3 Hymn
In: 1 Jitte, 1 Deluge, 1 G Charm

Keys to the Match: In this match up the two most important cards for both of these decks are Abrupt Decay and Deathrite. Value them appropriately. Hold onto your Decays for Lili's and Goyfs as long as possible, use burn on everything else. BUG will bring submerge in after the board, it wrecks your shit. If you can strip it from their hand do so. Disfigure is another very strong after board cards, expect anywhere from 2-3 copies. Three main versions of this deck have been roaming around lately with varying numbers and combinations of Tombstalker, Bob and True Name Nigga. The heavy tombstalker builds are the hardest for us to deal with. If you suspect or know that Tombstalker is relevant keep your deathrite burning cards in their graveyard every turn to prevent/stunt their ability to delve, even if it means eating lands for nothing. This is a tough match, play really tight.

RUG:
Out: 1 G Charm, 1 Pulse
In: 1 Jitte, 1 Deluge

Stifle. Stifle. Stifle. Play around stifle. Do your best to only fetch when your opponent is tapped out. Abrupt Decay is one of your best cards here. Lili can stop the goose cold as long as you keep everything else off the board, keeping a Goyf up to block stonewalls it also.

U/R:
Laugh all the way to the bank

General Delver Notes:

In games 2/3 delver players will 99% of the time side out Force of Will. In addition to this they will take out anywhere from 2-4 Dazes depending on if they are playing or drawing. Spell pierce is the most dangerous counter magic post board.

Miracles:
U/W (Flash or Helm/Entreat):
Out: 3 Punishing Fire, 2 Lightning Bolt, 1 Maelstrom Pulse, 1 Bloodbraid Elf
In: 3 Surgical Extraction, 1 Pyroblast, 1 Red Blast, 2 Duress

Keys to the Match Up:
Do not overextend. Sit on a hand full of creatures and force them to Terminus then Surgical that shit and reload the board. If you can Surgical Entreat DO IT. If you can resolve a Lili DO IT (resolve is the key word). These builds have a terrible time with resolved non-creature permanents making Lili and Library among your best cards. Rape their hand often, masturbate with their tears. Save your fetches to shuffle creatures back into your deck after a Terminus if you don't need the mana. Pyro/Red blast are sick answers to Jace. Be aware of Detention Sphere, Oblivion Ring, and Pithing Needle in games 2/3 as answers to your Lili's. Once I saw a Moat...

ONCE.

UWR:
Out: 3 Punishing Fire, 1 Maelstrom Pulse
In: 2 Ancient Grudge, 1 Red Blast, 1 Pyroblast

Keys to the Match-up:
Again, do not over extend. This version wins the good ol' fashioned way with creatures and the occasional thopter foundry shenanigans. Blood Moon is real so fetch basics as often as possible. Disrupt fast and often, protect your Lili. Prime Targets for Thoughtseize: Jace, Equipment, Blood Moon, Humility. Save your fetches to recover from Terminus when possible.

General Miracles notes:
As I said before there are at the moment like 2.5 different types of Miracles decks. The traditional style of Helm Combo or Entreat in pure U/W, the U/W Flash version that runs like 2-3 Snapcasters and 1-2 Vendillion Cliques in the main, and the UWR version which has access to stoneforge/thopter nonsense. The two U/W decks don't change how we sideboard but they do change how we play slightly. The flash version has an easier time dealing with Lili for the obvious reasons but it adds more value to the Golgari Charms because their shit just dies. UWR is more of a midrange deck than a control deck so you'll need to rely a little heavier on removal. I cannot stress enough do not over extend, save a fetch or two in the mid/late game to recover from Terminus and resolve/protect your Lilis. If you can do those things you can win.
 
White Fair Decks (Death and Taxes/ xBlade Decks):

Out: 3 Hymn, 1 Maelstrom Pulse, 1 G Charm
In: 2 Ancient Grudge, 1 Deluge, 1 Massacre, 1 Jitte

Look familiar?

Death and Taxes- Keys to the Match Up:
You are the control deck in this match up. Resources are obviously at a premium so be smart with yours. Kill Thalias and Mother of Runes as early and often as you can. Same goes for Vial. Try to only use your wastelands for their Ports, hit Karakas only if they start to do "I'll bounce my legendary creature for value" bullshit. That land doesn't really affect our shit too much just their ability to dodge our removal. Look out for vial activations on 2 in response to Liliana, they will flash in Revoker and name Lili while she's on the stack. Look out for vial activations on 3 in response to your fetches, Aven Midcensor is basically stifle. Some D/T build bring Wilt-Leaf Liege in for your Lilianas so just keep that in mind when deciding to +1 or not. They will bring in RIP to shrink Goyf and stop Fire lock.

xBlade - Keys to the Match-up:
We wreck these decks. Plain and simple. Be aware of Supreme Verdict, watch your over extension. Stoneblade post board may bring in Back to Basics which is more brutal than Blood Moon in most cases. Play around it by fetching basics and valuing your Abrupt Decays a little more. Deathblade cannot afford the basic lands in their mana base and therefore will not have Back to Basics.
 
Cccccccombo Breaker:
Beating combo without blue spells, #thestruggle:
In order to beat these decks you have to play tight as fuck. And then play tighter. Your aim is to make it to the long game where you benefit from top decking. In order to do this you have to disrupt early and often and take key combo cards with your targeted removal. You're constantly stunting their ability to go off by a card in order to buy yourself one more turn.

Sneak and Show:
Out: 3 Punishing Fire, 2 Bolt, 1 Pulse, 1 Bloodbraid,
In: 3 Surgical, 1 Pyroblast, 1 Red Blast, 2 Duress

Keys to the Match-up: Surgical extract their creatures (ie: Grissledick and Emrakunt). They only run 8, if they don't have them they can't win. In the absence of hand disruption play all of your permanents, hold nothing back. Annihilator 6 is a lot easier to live thru when you can sac everything but a goyf or 2 and swing back for lethal. Not to mention multiple Bobs allowing you to race their Brainstorms are fucking real. Post board it is essential to play around Blood Moon. In game 1 save Pulse and G Charm for Sneak Attacks. It's also perfectly acceptable to blow Decays on Lotus Petals in game 1 to slow them down, in game 2/3 however try to save them for uncounterable answers to Blood Moon.

Reanimator:
Out: 3 Punishing Fire, 1 Bolt, 1 G Charm, 2 Hymn to Tourach
In: 3 Surgical Extraction, 1 Cage, 1 Crypt, 2 Duress

Keys to the Match-up: ALWAYS keep your Deathrites active with GREEN mana. Eating their creatures in response to animation attempts is SO FUCKING CLUTCH. Play crypt early and make them play around it, this buys you time and allows you to establish active deathrites and hand disruption. Hymn comes out because we don't want to randomly help them by putting a fatty in the yard, Lili's are almost solely for edicts. The most valuable cards for hand disruption are cards that allow them to place creatures into the yard so careful study, entomb the occasional faithless looting. Do your best to force them to keep creatures in their hand where they are essentially useless to them. Exhume is also a key card to strip due to its ability to get around Deathrites with two targets in the yard.

ANT/Storm (aka The Story of How We Lose This Match):
Out: 3 Punishing Fire, 2 Bolt, 1 Pulse, 1 G Charm
In: 2 Duress, 1 Crypt, 1 Cage, 3 Surgical

Keys to the Match-up: Buy time by removing the cards they need to go off. Tutors and cantrips are the most valuable cards to take. I won’t lie, this is pretty much an auto-loss so just play your best.

Elves:
Out: 1Maelstrom Pulse, 1 Hymn, 1 Lili
In: 1 G Charm, 1 Deluge, 1 Grafdigger's Cage

Keys to the Match-up: Kill Wirewood symbiote, Kill Gaea's Cradle, Kill their Deathrites. Kill fucking everything. In games 2/3 be ready for a fast Natural Order into Progenitus, play your Lili's conservatively in order to untap and counter this strategy. It really comes down to wrecking their hand and killing their relevant shit. If they have an active Deathrite before you it can make life really difficult.

General deck notes:

-Whenever your hand allows it try to let the first land you fetch/play be your basic swamp. This allows you to have a safe black source at all times and be an anchor to your board state.

-In game 1 on the play against an unknown opponent when given the option to cast a Deathrite or a Thoughtseize on turn 1 it is almost always correct to Thoughtseize. The information gained is invaluable and allows you to quickly reevaluate your hand's game plan. Oh and taking their best card isn't bad either.

-I like to bait wastelands in early turns with a Grove of the Burnwillows. This usually allows me to have double black available the following turn which is more important to the overall game plan than a Grove or even the potential 1 life we gave our opponent for cast a green spell.

Fire away with questions/advice etc. Thanks for reading.

[Gunz24]

As a quick aside to my above post I'm catching a lot of shit about the language and the formatting on other sites I've shared this with. That's fine. I understand, truthfully. This was written very late at night for a friend and I hadn't intended to share it with anyone but once I realized that all of this information that I've spent months acquiring might help someone else before they play Jund at any number of the really high quality Legacy events this weekend I had to share it. I wasn't about to lose more sleep so you weren't offended or so that it looked pretty and I also knew that people going to Charlotte would need to be able to read it ASAP (Since it's starting as I write this). The information here is sound and will help you win games. Take it or leave it. I apologize ahead of time for any hurt feelings.

[chibi]

Before anything else, hello fellow Jund players! I was a long time lurker before building my Jund deck. And now that I've built it and currently having good games with it, hopefully I can share and learn more with the deck that we love. :D

@Gunz24: Excellent writeup! Don't worry about the language, it just shows how important some points are which is a lot helpful than just plain reading the whole thing without having an idea which parts are important. :D THank you for sharing this information with us.

[DOM]

Delver Decks:
UWR:
Out: 3 Hymn, 1 G Charm, 1 Pulse
In: 2 Grudge, 1 Massacre, 1 Deluge, 1 Jitte

Keys to the Match: Ancient Grudge is the best value in this match-up. Use your thoughtseizes to shape the early turns and protect your board state, if you can catch an equipment card or a True-Name before it resolves these are prime targets. Massacre is literally a massacre here. They will bring in RIP to handle your Goyfs and Punishing Fires, not back breaking but not great for us either. Be aware.

I would leave the Golgari Charm in the 60. After all, it was there to deal with TNN in the first place. What is more, Golgari Charm can kill Snapcaster Mages, Vendilion Cliques and destroy the Rest in Peace they will bring in, like you mentioned. Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast is also a legitimate choice to side in.
 

White Fair Decks (Death and Taxes/ xBlade Decks):

Out: 3 Hymn, 1 Maelstrom Pulse, 1 G Charm
In: 2 Ancient Grudge, 1 Deluge, 1 Massacre, 1 Jitte

Versus Death and Taxes Golgari Charm can wipe most of their creatures and deal with the Rest in Peace as well.

I would also keep the Maelstrom Pulse against both decks for its reach and would cut various numbers of Thoughtseizes.

Everything else except maybe the overestimation of ANT/TES seems fine more or less. It is not the best matchup but it can be managed quite well with the discard, grave hate and cards like Thorn of Amethyst and Chains of Mephistopheles.

[Gunz24]

Lots to address here so I'll just start at the top. TNN is not a problem for this deck. Never has been, never will be. That's because we have 4 main deck Lililianas. The reason Golgari Charm is in the main is to shore up the game 1 Elves match-up and to have a second main deck way to deal with Sneak Attack. This card comes out against Delver decks because we're bringing in better sweepers in the form of Deluge and/or Massacre.

As for Red/Pyro Blast there is no point during a Delver match where I want to be holding a 1 drop "Removal" spell that isn't Lightning Bolt. I'm not looking to counter any blue spells they play and none of the blue creatures they play can't be killed with Bolt or Punishing Fire. The additional benefits of having 3 free damage are for combat tricks in stalled out Tarmogoyf board states as well as a little reach to dome your opponent with.

As for Golgari Charm vs Death and Taxes, this is a discussion I've had a few times with a few people and the reason Golgari Charim comes out is because more often than not you're not going to get a blowout multi-kill with it like you will with Massacre or Toxic Deluge. When I say to kill the Moms and Thalia's I mean to prioritize your 1-1 removal for them above other targets. With the amount of removal we side into and the ability to Punishing Fire lock them Golgari Charm usually winds up being just short of enough to wipe their board unless I have it on turns 2/3. The idea is basically that we side into better sweepers. I wouldn't say you're wrong though if you opted to keep it in. RIP isn't the end of the world because of Abrupt Decay which in games 2/3 needs to be prioritized a little differently.

I disagree on every level with cutting any number of Thoughtseize. That is one of the best cards in this deck considering we have no counter magic. The information gained alone from Thoughtseize allows us to make smarter plays and really grind out that incremental advantage that we need to in order to win. I also disagree with keeping Maelstrom Pulse in for any of the match-ups in which I've suggested that you remove it. Pulse is a catch all answer for game 1. After the board we bring in better versions of pulse for the things we'd have kept pulse in for, namely Ancient Grudge. I have rarely ever cast a Maelstrom Pulse for more than a 1-1 and in all the situations I have it took out mine also. Maelstrom Pulse actually hurts your reach when you think about what you might hit and the answers we bring in/are already there.

[DOM]

I was suggesting adding Blasts while keeping Lightning Bolts, not instead of them. Negating Vendilion Cliques' or Snapcasters' ability in addition to destroying them, countering/destroying Jace, the Mind Sculptor, killing a Delver of Secrets and being able to counter a True-Name Nemesis seems quite good, in my opinion. On the other hand, it can create a bad cascade scenario.

I have seen lists with only three Thoughtseizes main board and have heard suggestions to cut them versus fair decks in order to bring more efficient stuff, i.e. Ancient Grudge, Umezawa's Jitte, etc. While I understand your reasoning, I think that you could go down to three after side if you have something to board in. In D&T matchup Golgari Charm will usually X for 1 your opponent (X being higher than 1) while Thoughtseize will not.

Regarding Pulse, having extra removal for Batterskull or Wilt-Leaf Liege can not be that bad. Especially since you will hardly end up in a position in which Pulse will backfire against UWR or D&T.

I have a few questions about your SCG IQ list:

1.) What is the reasoning behind playing 3 Bayous and 2 Badlands instead of vice versa? Usually you do not need to have more than two green mana sources while Badlands complements the Punishing Fire package.

2.) How good was the Rakdos Charm?

3.) In what matchups would you bring in the Chains of Mephistopheles?

[Final Fortune]

Don't forget 4x Deathrite Shaman.

There are some players who believe that if you run 4 maindeck DRS you need nothing else against graveyard-based strategies. I think a Grafdiggers and Tormods here is more than enough.

Maybe in aggro-control but not in Jund, every graveyard deck in the format, Reanimator, Hermit Druid and Dredge is designed to win around Deathrite Shaman's summoning sickness. It may give you a chance to win game one, but that doesn't mean it will give you a chance to win a match. I wouldn't feel confident vs any graveyard deck without 3 Surgical Extraction in the SB, maybe a couple Grafdigger's Cage if you're worried about Elves.

[aluisiocsantos]

3.) In what matchups would you bring in the Chains of Mephistopheles?

I dunno about him but I also run a copy and I always board out Sylvan Library and board in this.
I ALWAYS board it versus any deck with blue, and also versus elves. I did board it on recently versus Junk when I saw him playing Sylvan on G1, and luckily it paid off as he turn 2 Sylvan Library'd and I turn two played Chains. ha! (no I dont think it's the correct boarding in this case but it was fun seeing happening).

Vs Blue decks it's almost like negating at least 8 cards, realistically speaking 7. And is beast vs combo. It works best versus opponents who kept hands because of BS.

[Gunz24]

I dunno about him but I also run a copy and I always board out Sylvan Library and board in this.

I would do this as well if I owned my own copy. I was lucky enough to borrow one for my IQ top 4 but I don't actually own it.

[aluisiocsantos]

I was lucky enough to find an italian vendor on ebay and got it for 100 euros! I think the same guy is now selling it for 150E, still cheaper than anywhere else.

Italian copies sucks though whenever an unfamiliar player comes across the card haha.

[DOM]

I dunno about him but I also run a copy and I always board out Sylvan Library and board in this.
I ALWAYS board it versus any deck with blue, and also versus elves. I did board it on recently versus Junk when I saw him playing Sylvan on G1, and luckily it paid off as he turn 2 Sylvan Library'd and I turn two played Chains. ha! (no I dont think it's the correct boarding in this case but it was fun seeing happening).

Vs Blue decks it's almost like negating at least 8 cards, realistically speaking 7. And is beast vs combo. It works best versus opponents who kept hands because of BS.

Ha, I am doing pretty much the same except that I keep Sylvan Library in certain matchups where I may need library manipulation to dig for relevant cards. A singleton Life from the Loam which I currently run in my 60 synergies with the duo as well.

Had he played Knight of the Reliquary Mephisto would have helped to make her bigger in that situation :tongue: discarding Lingering Souls also slightly decreases the harm.

Would it be reasonable to switch Pernicious Deed with Toxic Deluge in the sideboard? Deed was there mainly to wreck Affinity and Tribal decks but Deluge seems to fill the same role with lesser mana expanses. However, Deed is rather good versus Miracles - not only you wipe the tokens but you clean their whole board too.

Regarding the ownership of Chains of Mephistopheles, I bought an English NM on last Christmas and am happy to see it has spiked in price :)

[aluisiocsantos]

I like Deed because not only it can kill Good Game Nemesis, it also destroys equipments. Sometimes for the same cost (TNN and Swords/Jittes/Batterskull's token). Also, Deluge might be a doubleedge blade when cascading into from BBE.

Also great lifesaver vs swarms, like if delver decks puts you in a pinch and you top deck it.

[Gunz24]

I don't like Deed because I feel it is too slow and lacks the mana efficiency of other options. In order for Deed to be relevant you need to cast it, untap with it still in play and then tap out again to use it. I'm not sure about anyone else but I'd much rather be doing other things with my mana for two straight turns.

As for Deluge cascading off of BBE, the BBE is unaffected by it. Cascade occurs at the casting of BBE and the Deluge will resolve before the BBE.

[aluisiocsantos]

Ops! I totally forgot about the priority things come up in play!

hm, maybe i should give it a second shot!

[ironclad8690]

Went 1-2 in a small local tournament last night.

R1: UWR Delver 0-2
G1: I keep a hand with 3 lands, Hymn, Lili, and 2 Bloodbraids. In retrospect, this was probably a terrible decision. He plays a turn 1 delver, and I never really get a removal spell. He just kind of flies over and kills me (by the time I get liliana he has backup creatures).
G2: This one was much closer, I get him to 1 life but he plays rest in peace and batterskull. My board of DRS, DRS, Tarmogoyf, and Bloodbraid are very sad. Batterskull pretty much wins it for him from there.

R2: U/R Delver 0-2
G1: Early delver and goblin guide beats combined with my own fetch damage puts me low enough for lightning bolt snap casted to win it for him.
G2: I establish punishing fire combo, but there are a couple of turns where he counters them. It comes down to me having to play a bob and a jitte to try and get back in the game, but he gets me down to 2, and i flip a tarmogoyf to bob kill myself.

R3: Junk 2-0
G1: He plays 3 lingering souls, I am able to make sure a couple of them are only cast 1 time thanks to DRS. I get punishing grove online and proceed to slowly whittle him away.
G2: This is a faster game, I play e plague on spirit, get punishing grove early, and play 3 DRS. I eat instants and sorceries to kill him.

[Neffy]

I have a weakness for trying to build SBs that makes me benefit i am not playing blue.
Typically this means I bring:
Chains of mephistopheles
helps against blue: brainstorm, ponder, jace, omniscience+enter the infinite, ancestral vision, etc.
helps against others: elvish visionary, glimpse of nature

Choke
against all blue (especially miracles, BUG and RUG)

Blood Moon (not tried yet)
we can live with it as we always have 2 basics and it screws so many decks: D&T, elves, BUG, RUG, Miracle?

Have you people any other ideas?
My board atm is:
2 Ancient grudge
1 Choke
2 Duress
1 Chains of meph.
2 Grafdigger
1 Underground sea (beware of own blood moon and choke - typically not SB in against the same decks)
3 swan song
2 pyroblast
1 golgari charm
1 toxic deluge
16 cards, i need to cut one.
Cards i would like: Pulse, surgical, e.plague.

Is there any idea in trying to make more beneficial SBs that also go along with cascade? Or will it make the board too inefficient?

[aluisiocsantos]

I like Maelstrom Pulse for killing multiples which is relevant vs Miracles, and is simply awesome cascading into - kills any threats, specially ones Abrupt Decay can't deal with such as Batterskull or Jace.

I like your perception of sideboard, since Jund's biggest problems are blue decks or combo decks (which with the exception of elves are mostly blue as well). I haven't touched Choke for a while, but it can be nasty when it connects. Maybe I'll trade a Scavenging Ooze for Choke next time!

my sideboard right now is sorta on the same line, perhaps, which means shaped to battle blue decks:
1x Umezawa's Jitte -> Vs attrict decks works the best.
1x Chains of Mephistopheles -> anything blue, always trade this for Sylvan Library
1x Scavenging Ooze -> Now that i write it down, I forgot why it's on the sideboard lol, I think it's because of my brother who plays Dredge. And RUG matches.
2x Ancient Grudge -> Equips, and now more relevantly, Painters
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Pernicious Deed -> swiper - I like it better than Deluge for dealing with equipment and being a valid target for Show and Tell.
2x Golgari Charm -> TNN
1x Red Elemental Blast -> Combos, Miracles
1x Pyroblast -> Combos, Miracles
2x Duress -> Combos
1x Grafdigger's Cage -> Elves, Reanimator, and Manaless Dredge (my brother plays it on the local meta)
1x Null Rod -> Miracles, Stoneblade decks.

[ironclad8690]

Played in a small local 4 round tournament last night.

Round 1: Reanimator (0-2)

Game 1: I am on the play and lead with Bayou > Deathrite Shaman. He can't really do anything so he just keeps playing land and pondering. I only have 1 more land in hand, so I can't play any of my two drops and keep DRS up. I am stuck on two lands until it is too late: he gets Elesh Norn and Griseldaddy in his yard and casts exhume. I exile the Griselbrand, but elesh norn comes back and kills my shaman. I can only play a Tarmogoyf, which even after Elesh is still a formidable 4/5. He buys himself enough time to reanimate a Griselbrand, followed by an Iona (he names red, being at 2 life). I cannot come back and he steamrolls me with undead fatties.

Game 2: I bring in my yard hate (2 Surgicals, 1 Nihil Spellbomb), as well as 3 Pyroblasts and 3 Duress. I take a look at my opening 7: 4 Lands, Lili, BBE, and Tarmogoyf - Not good enough. I go to 6: Badlands, DRS, Bob, Bob, Goyf, Liliana - if the land were a Bayou I would keep, but I toss it back. I eventually end up with this 5: 1 Fetch, 2 Goyf, 1 Duress, 1 Lili. I play my fetch, crack, and duress him: I see 2 Lands, 1 Pithing needle, Grisel, Show and Tell, Entomb, and Reanimate. I take reanimate hoping to buy myself some time. He plays land and passes back, and I am hoping for a land - nope, another lili. Things are looking grim now, I pass back and he entombs Iona EOT. He reanimates with a topdeck the following turn, and names black shutting me out of the game.

0-1

Round 2: Deadguy Ale w/Shocklands (2-0)

Game 1: I manage to eat 3 Lingering Souls in his yard, but still have to deal with the tokens. I eventually just swarm him with creatures and burn, he is left with Mirran Crusader and 1 token vs goyf goyf bob and he is at two.

Game 2: I bring in lingering souls hate (1 Spellbomb, 2 Surgical Extraction, 2 Golgari Charm, 1 Engineered Plague) and my artifact hate (2 Ancient Grudge). He leads off with a slow start, and I am able to burn all of his creatures and win with Bloodbraid elves. He tells me after the match he sided out lingering souls, and I tell his that was certainly incorrect. His reasoning was because he suspected I was siding in so many hate cards for it it became bad, but I still firmly believe it is one of the only ways he can actually win the matchup.

1-1

Round 3: Jund Mirror (2-1)

Game 1: Very grindy back and forth, I win the topdeck war eventually.

Game 2: I bring out Thoughtseize and a single hymn for 2 Golg Charms, 1 Spellbomb, and 2 Surgicals. He wins the topdeck war in this one, and I am just outclassed.

Game 3: I bring in my hymn (since on the play) and side out 1 golgari charm. My opening hand was sick: 1 Fetch, 3 Wastelands, 1 DRS, 1 Bob, 1 Punishing Fire. I lead with DRS, and waste pretty much all the lands he plays aside from his turn 1 basic forest. He almost gets back into it with a bloodbraid elf, but hits Life from the Loam when he really needed a removal. I am able to swarm past him and burn him out.

2-1

Round 4: Elves (2-1)

Game 1: He does what elves do, gets a giant crater on turn 3 or whatever and stomps my yard.

Game 2: Bring in Golg Charms, Engineered Plague, and Pithing Needle. Side out 2 Bloodbraid elves, 1 Lili, and Sylvan Library. He starts doing some shenanigans with visionary and symbiote, but I am able to draw Engineered Plague (pure skill).

Game 3: He almost has a turn 2 glimpse dream turn, but ends with 2 untapped elves and 1 mana in the pool. my bob reveals an engineered plague off the top (pure skill), and I windmill slam it. He stays int he game with an DRS and Nettle sentinel, but I abrupt decay his last two non land permanents the following turn and he scoops.

3-1

At this point I am stoked because 3-1 has a shot at store credit, but I learn that there were two 3-0-1 guys (Lands and 4 Color Cascade). Even without the credit, it was nice to have a good record. I wonder if a Grafdigger's Cage belongs in my sideboard:

2 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyroblast
3 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Golgari Charm

What do you guys think? My meta: Lands, Reanimator, Elves, Merfolk, Death and Taxes, Sneak and Show, Patriot Delver.

[aluisiocsantos]

Nice job on the good results!
If your meta has Reanimator and Elves, I see no reason for not running Grafdigger!

[ironclad8690]

Thanks!

What would you recommend cutting?

[WeatherseedMage]

If you wanted 2 Cages, I think that I would cut 1 Duress and 1 Engineered Plague.

Plague is good against Elves, but so is Cage, so that's basically a 1 for 1 swap. The duress won't do a ton vs Elves! whereas a 2nd Cage should probably be a lot better off. Basically, I would lean on the Charm and Cage to basically tag team do what Plague does, but against more decks and be more broadly applicable.

-1 Duress shouldn't be bad, because in a control match up, you'll have 2 Duresses, 3 REBs, some number of Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach and Liliana. So losing 1 Duress shouldn't mess up those matchups too much vs the value gained from Cage shutting down Elves!, Reanimator, Past in Flames Storm chains, and Dredge variants.

[ironclad8690]

If you wanted 2 Cages, I think that I would cut 1 Duress and 1 Engineered Plague.

Plague is good against Elves, but so is Cage, so that's basically a 1 for 1 swap. The duress won't do a ton vs Elves! whereas a 2nd Cage should probably be a lot better off. Basically, I would lean on the Charm and Cage to basically tag team do what Plague does, but against more decks and be more broadly applicable.

-1 Duress shouldn't be bad, because in a control match up, you'll have 2 Duresses, 3 REBs, some number of Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach and Liliana. So losing 1 Duress shouldn't mess up those matchups too much vs the value gained from Cage shutting down Elves!, Reanimator, Past in Flames Storm chains, and Dredge variants.

Sweet, thanks for the advice. I will update my board and let you guys know how this Sunday goes, I will be playing in a 40+ person tournament.

[ironclad8690]

Sweet, thanks for the advice. I will update my board and let you guys know how this Sunday goes, I will be playing in a 40+ person tournament.

So I didn't do too well in the tourney. 4-3 was my final record, and I get 22nd place for probably the 4th time in a row at knightware. There were 66 people, so that isn't too bad I guess. Anyway, here is the short report.

Round 1 I played against Doomsday and lost.

Round 2 I played against Reanimator and won (Grafdigger's proved it's worth)

Round 3 I played against Dark Maverick and won (by the skin of my teeth, he GSZd for a knight when he had sigarda mana, if he had gotten sigarda it would've been lights out for me).

Round 4 I played against BUG Delver and won.

Round 5 I played against Patriot Delver and lost

Round 6 I played against Sneak and Show and lost.

Round 7 I played against Death and Taxes and won.

I misplayed vs doomsday and took the wrong card with thoughtseize, but other than that I feel like I didn't really have a chance in that matchup as my draws were discard light.

Vs patriot I got creamed as is per usual. Everyone tells me I should be favored, but each time I play against this deck they always gets exactly what they need, be it True Name Nemesis, Rest in Peace, or multiple Swords to Plowshares. To be fair, my opponent said he drew rather well, and those results were not typical of that matchup.

Vs sneak, I did my best, game 2 I had thoughtseize (which revealed sneak, emrakul, grisel, lotus petal, 2 lands and ponder) with pyroblast backup. I took sneak, and he ponders. Two turns pass, he show and tells, I pyroblast, but he has the force and I die to Emrakul.

Don't think I will change anything about my deck, I just need to keep gaining experience and making better mulligan decisions; especially vs combo decks.

Playing in a small local tonight, will let you guys know how it goes.

[Gunz24]

Vs patriot I got creamed as is per usual.

I feel like I read this in your posts a lot. The match-up shouldn't be that bad. I would suggest finding a friend who can play the deck and running a bunch of practice games. Even if you have to make a proxy deck just try to hammer out your issues with the match-up before it becomes a mental block. Be super unbiased and critical of every aspect of the match-up and your play and see if you can find an area where maybe your game starts to fall apart. DO NOT change anything in your deck until you've done this. More often than not it's the player and not the cards OR it could reveal a massive gap in your sideboard plan. Hope that helps.

Zach

[ironclad8690]

I feel like I read this in your posts a lot. The match-up shouldn't be that bad. I would suggest finding a friend who can play the deck and running a bunch of practice games. Even if you have to make a proxy deck just try to hammer out your issues with the match-up before it becomes a mental block. Be super unbiased and critical of every aspect of the match-up and your play and see if you can find an area where maybe your game starts to fall apart. DO NOT change anything in your deck until you've done this. More often than not it's the player and not the cards OR it could reveal a massive gap in your sideboard plan. Hope that helps.

Zach

Thanks for the advice. I will try and practice this matchup specifically.

[Gunz24]

Don't be afraid to lose every single game for hours. I did this with Sneak and Show and now in competitive play I have not lost to that deck in nearly 6 months. Practice makes perfect but only if you learn while you lose.

Zach

[Admiral_Arzar]

I played this list at SCG: Dallas:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire

2 Sylvan Library
4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Duress
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pernicious Deed

I ended at 6-3 when I lost my last two after a 6-1 run through the first seven rounds. My rounds went like this:

Round 1: Miracles (Win 2-1 after a hilarious punt game 2)
Round 2: Esper Stoneblade (Win 2-0)
Round 3: UWR Delver/Patriot (Win 2-0)
Round 4: UWR Delver/Patriot (Loss 0-2, this guy went on to win the whole thing)
Round 5: Burn (Win 2-1)
Round 6: RUG Delver (Win 2-1)
Round 7: Dredge (Win 2-1)
Round 8: Spiral Tide (Loss 0-2, this was TheSource's own Colin Chilbert, he ended up in 3rd)
Round 9: U/R Pyromancer (Loss 1-2, close games 1 and 2 but I mulled to 4 looking for lands in game 3 and got Wastelanded out of the game)

The deck played very well all day, with the exception of my absurd mulligans in round 9 and rather bad draws in game one of round 4. I only missed Hymn to Tourach against Spiral Tide, but even with Hymn the matchup is bad. I believe I could have won round 4 if I had sideboarded correctly, but as I didn't see white game one (my opponent went T1 Delver, t2 Delver, t3 or 4 TNN so I assumed U/R or RUG for some reason and didn't board in Grudge, Pulse, or Deed). Thus I lost to a Delver with 3 different equipment on it game 2. I would recommend this list to anyone who plays in a meta dominated by fair decks as it is good against all of them (RUG Delver is probably the scariest matchup and that's no worse than 50/50 generally). I think the sideboard needs a little work though, I rarely boarded in all 3 Charms or both Grudges (Destructive Revelry might be worth testing).

[ironclad8690]

Nice report!

Last night I played in a small local tournrey for 2nd out of 9.

R1: Beat Reanimator

R2: Beat Lands

R3: Lose to Big Red

R4: Beat MUD

I almost had big red but in g3 he leads with sandstone needle, I play swamp duress and take sneak attack leaving him with several fatties and 2 blood moons. He goes t2 bloodmoon and I can't draw my forest to play anything in my hand besides a deathrite shaman some turns later, and there were no lands in the GY for the entire game. I could have gone turn 1 crack fetch for a forest, but I was playing to stop him from going off rather than playing around a turn 2 blood moon; and I figured duress was the better play.

[litenkatt]

what's the reason behind playing 24lands? I've been running 23 for some time without any issues at all. I actually still find myself getting flooded more often than not

[hibachi777]

what's the reason behind playing 24lands? I've been running 23 for some time without any issues at all. I actually still find myself getting flooded more often than not

The mana curve is a higher than a lot of other legacy decks. You've got a lot of stuff that costs 3 (Lili, a full cycle of Punishing Fire + Grove) and a key spell that costs 4. DRS is public enemy number one the moment he hits the table so you cant always rely on him to get you though the curve plus everyone has wasteland and you're gonna want to use your wasteland on your opponent. 24 land seems like a safe number to ensure you can reliably get to 4 mana even though disruption

[aluisiocsantos]

In other hand I don't think there is THAT much difference between 23 or 24, though I do believe you're counting the Punishing Grove engine for the extra lands. I've seen and tested lists with 3 Grove of Burnwillows and it works jsut fine. In fact right now I prefer running 3 groves and 4 wastelands instead of the opposite, even though my deck land count is still 24.

That said, Wastelands are not lands in my hand, but LD spells ;) So in fact you run 20 lands actually.

[Kihashi]

The new set has been spoiled. Does anyone see anything that we should consider playing or be concerned about playing against?

[bryanzoll]

The new set has been spoiled. Does anyone see anything that we should consider playing or be concerned about playing against?

For Death and Taxes they gain Aegis of the Gods and some people are talking about Tethmos High Priest being viable. In any case, have creature removal and we should be fine. Just note that they can Vial in Aegis of the Gods similar to the way they vial in SotL.

Didn't see anything else that can be added to Jund. However, I would expect Enchantress decks to start picking up a bit with some of the enchantment creatures that are being printed.

[ironclad8690]

The new set has been spoiled. Does anyone see anything that we should consider playing or be concerned about playing against?

I don't see anything that really scares me. With the high number of removal spells we play I am not worried about the you get hexproof guy, and the red guy is just another card that our worst matchup can play; but burn was already a lost cause IMO.

Nothing else really stands out, but with all the brewing that happens in legacy who knows. I have a funny feeling we might see something new, or at least an updated older deck.

[aluisiocsantos]

I wonder if is there any potential in this: maybe together with PFire:
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/56/317/635332869446230408.jpeg

[razvan]

It is too expensive. I like the effect a lot, but this would have been playable possibly at 2 mana. At 3 it is way too much.

[Water_Wizard]

It would also be nice if it could kill a flipped Delver and possibly had flash. If it was 2/4, maybe there would be a chance of it being playable in Legacy.

Life from the Loam is still the best way to get PFire into the gy.

[Neffy]

Is burning wish usable in this deck? Being able to fetch a hymn/duress, pulse or something else is nice and we often have the mana for immediately casting it. Cascading into BW also could be good as you can choose the outcome yourself, so to speak.maybe a one off?

[razvan]

No. This deck needs its mana too much. You lose when you have too little mana available. Adding Burning Wish is the opposite of what we need to do, I think.

[o_boogie]

What do you all think about 1-2 copies of Prophetic Flamespeaker in the maindeck (in place of the same number of Tarmogoyfs)? My meta is filled with Miracles and Swords to Plowshares decks and Tarmogoyf has been pretty underwhelming as such. The Flamespeaker is intriguing since it is another form of card advantage which can help against the control decks.

[razvan]

It dies to bolt and it is fairly expensive. That being said, the effect could be incredible. Turn 1 Shaman, Turn 2 that, Turn 3 removal and attack? Even if all you get is a land, it's still pretty damn nice. And if you get 2 cards you can play... hello!

Not great in a meta filled with Delver decks, but it's a powerful enough effect that it could definitely see play.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I top-8'd a local tournament for a Mox Emerald (33 players) with my maindeck from the previous page (no Hymns, 25 lands). I played this different sideboard though:

3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
2 Golgari Charm
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pernicious Deed

The Swiss went like this (6 rounds):

MUD (2-1)
RUG Delver (2-1)
Affinity (2-0)
RUG Delver (1-2)
BUG Delver (2-0)
BUG Delver (ID)

In top 8 I was paired against Miracles. I proceeded to lose game one to my own God-awful play (Don't forget that Punishing Fire triggers off of lifegain triggers that aren't named Grove of the Burnwillows lol), win game 2, and then get slowly grinded and hated out of game 3. I think incorrect sideboarding contributed to my game 3 loss as well. I got my entry fee back for my trouble, and re-learned some lessons about how to play against Counterbalance (Abrupt Decay is a crutch, the times you don't draw it require actual thought). The deck was good, I mulliganned for lands a surprising amount considering that I play 25, but drawing lots of lands helps a lot in tempo matchups. A mullligan and/or better play on my part might have won me the Swiss RUG loss, although double-Stifle hands are rough.

The sideboard changes were motivated by fear of Dredge (extra Cage) and the 'revelation' that Hymn is better than Duress against combo (but I still don't want it maindeck) so it sneaked back into the sideboard. I will likely replace the Revelry with a Krosan Grip (forgot that card existed, don't make sideboards in the early morning when you are half asleep gents) and I would like to sneak a Pithing Needle in there somewhere, although I'm not sure what card gets cut for that. I may not play this deck again for a while as I am going to work on learning how to play tempo decks, but I recommend my current maindeck to anyone who wants good game against tempo and control decks.

EDIT: That Nyx Weaver card is beyond awful, I would rather play Kitchen Finks or Sprouting Thrinax in a three slot (and we all know those cards aren't playable over anything in our current 75, this is far worse than they are).

[Nuke is Good]

I was helping my friend playtest his new deck BURG Tempo and I was thinking to myself: "How do I exactly win against this deck?". He is a lot better than me in the game so I lost pretty bad, most of the time he would daze/spell pierce me and beat me down with delver/elemental tokens from young pyromancer. The color lockout strategy I use against RUG Delver doesn't help in this case since he packs DRS in the deck. Should I be trying to stall the game with punishing fires and not trying to race?

[Neffy]

I was helping my friend playtest his new deck BURG Tempo and I was thinking to myself: "How do I exactly win against this deck?". He is a lot better than me in the game so I lost pretty bad, most of the time he would daze/spell pierce me and beat me down with delver/elemental tokens from young pyromancer. The color lockout strategy I use against RUG Delver doesn't help in this case since he packs DRS in the deck. Should I be trying to stall the game with punishing fires and not trying to race?

Always consider your role in the games you have.
You say it's tempo, so trying to battle with him on exactly that would not get you far. Play the control role instead, and answer his threats and secure a mana base stabil enough for playing a liliana or bloodbraid/goyf.

[anakyn]

Should I be trying to stall the game with punishing fires and not trying to race?

Yep, definitely: you don't want to race tempo decks with Jund.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I was helping my friend playtest his new deck BURG Tempo and I was thinking to myself: "How do I exactly win against this deck?". He is a lot better than me in the game so I lost pretty bad, most of the time he would daze/spell pierce me and beat me down with delver/elemental tokens from young pyromancer. The color lockout strategy I use against RUG Delver doesn't help in this case since he packs DRS in the deck. Should I be trying to stall the game with punishing fires and not trying to race?

You should crush this deck unless you get Stifle/Wasted out of the game (which does happen rather often I will admit). Play around Stifle, fetch basics whenever possible and play around Daze whenever possible. You have huge amounts of removal, leverage that to stay alive. Keeping hands with a lot of lands and removal spells is generally where it's at. Sweepers out of the board help with Pyromancer nonsense. Remember, YOU are the control in every Delver matchup. Your creatures (with the exception of Goyf) are a shitty clock so you will rarely be able to race them. Dismantle their board and you will eventually win through card advantage and superior lategame. If you can't make it to the lategame you are dead.

EDIT: While Wasting greedy decks like RUG and BURG may be a nearly irresistible temptation, doing it into untapped blue mana (or DRS) is just asking to get Stifled. Also, I have found that the extra land is often more important than any effect you get from Wasteland - there are lots of cards in our deck that feature colorless mana, and paying for Daze is a thing. Remember, you aren't trying to disrupt them out of the game early (that's their gameplan against you), you're just trying to kill/block their guys until you have enough lands and resources to take over the game.

[ironclad8690]

How do you guys board against lands?

[aluisiocsantos]

Got 8th on a 18 player tourney this weekend, ending on 3-2, not the best result but still fun times. Combo heavy meta, around 2 storms, 3 reanimators, 3 burns.

Round 1: Budget UB Reanimator, not a tough match even though i lose the first game to a second turn griselbrand still. Game 2 and 3 has me dominating the board with proper discards and Liliana. 1-0

Round 2: TES, I manage to discard LEDs in the first game but he still combos after 3 brainstorms. G2 sees me hunting for deed or pulse after he empty the warrens. 1-1

Round 3: TES again, but this player makes several mistakes such as playing led or petals without using them, which actually lets me use removals several times, complete the job with discards. i win with two games. 2-1

Round 4: RUG Delver. This was a fun one, he mulligans to 5, I open with Shaman, and turn two Thoughtseize + Wasteland. Game two, he has a strong start with flipped delver, and in his hand two submerges and FOW. I have no creatures in my hand but several removals + lands. I try P.firing his delvers, and he submerges it. The second time he leaves it to die, but plays a second delver AND a mongoose. Soon his delver flips and his mongoose gets 3/3, while i have a Pernicious Deed in my hand, however he has that FOW so I try making him waste his FOW by playing BBE. It cascades into Shaman, which gets the forced. In his turn he swings for 6 more and plays a third mongoose, now with no cards in hand. Next turn I just P.Deed and sec for 1, swiping his board and he scoops to BBE. 3-1

Round 5: Burn. Well, this one is though, before I know I'm already dead in G1. Game two has me Thoughseize him in a hand with 2 Chain Lightning and 3 Lava Spike. I take lava spike out and surgical extract it. He has one mana for most of the game, Im able to replicate his Chain Lightning and after a duress I find out he has two Flame Rifts, but im already at like 6 hp. Unfortunatelly he draws another land and it's game. 3-2.

Here's my deck right now:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Thoughtseize
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Lybrary

1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Pyroblast
1 REB
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Duress
1 Surgical Extraction

I was wondering if wouldn't it be worth getting some Thorn of Amethyst for a meta call, I think it could have saved my ass here haha. I just wish I had gotten matched up with more fair decks sigh! Still fun, got a FNM Cloudpost for my 8th lol!

[Neffy]

Good report Santos :)

I think i will try a singleton Deed in my board too. your board does not seem very combo-effecient. Maybe more pyroblast? I am running 3 Swansong and 1 sea in the board :)

Has anyone tried Urborg, tomb... as a land? I often find myself in need of double black, and im considering cutting one Grove for 1 Urborg.

With hymns and Lilys it is very important for us to get black going, and more than often I end up with opening hands of wasteland, forest, Grove, etc.. No black there..
Im getting one home atm and hope it will prove useful.

[Admiral_Arzar]

How do you guys board against lands?

Board yard hate that isn't Grafdigger's Cage, artifact/enchantment hate, Life From the Loam, and Pithing Needle if you run it. Winning the roll and grabbing Exploration/Manabond with Thoughtseize helps a lot. Hymn to Tourach is laughably bad. This matchup should be bad for us regardless.

[ironclad8690]

Board yard hate that isn't Grafdigger's Cage, artifact/enchantment hate, Life From the Loam, and Pithing Needle if you run it. Winning the roll and grabbing Exploration/Manabond with Thoughtseize helps a lot. Hymn to Tourach is laughably bad. This matchup should be bad for us regardless.

Thanks for the advice!

Just went 3-1 in a small local.

Beat Lands, Reanimator, and Miracles.

Lost to Death and Taxes (pilot is very skilled, game 1 I mulled to 5, and game 3 I mulled to six and bricked on lands for several turns).

This deck is the bomb.

[lambert101]

thought about brewing this list:
4 thoughtseize
4 Hymn
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Punishing Fire
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Deathrite
4 Bob
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid

1 forest
1 swamp
4 badlands
2 bayou
4 grove of the burnwillows
4 verdant catacombs
4 bloodstained mire
4 Wasteland

Board:
3 Red blast
2 ancient grudge
2 gologari charm
2 grafdigger's cage
2 choke
1 maelstrom pulse
1 Sylvan library
2 pithing needle

[DOM]

Main board:

-2 Lightning Bolt / 1 Lightning Bolt 1 Hymn to Tourach
-1 Badlands

+1 Liliana of the Veil
+1 Sylvan Library
+1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:

-2 Choke
+2 something else.

With four Wastelands and Punishing Fire package it would be quite reasonable to add a singleton Life from the Loam to main or side.

[aluisiocsantos]

thought about brewing this list:


Why so many Badlands instead of bayou? You already have enough red mana lands. If you need you just fetch one or two badlands tops. Id place more bayou than badlands, so, 3 bayou/2badlands I'd say (its what I run). Also, Sylvan Library maindeck is always sweet. What would you board it IN against? Like, it's super useful specially after you have both it and Bob online, to make bob deal less damage to you. Also organize your library for BBE. 4 Hymn to Tourach might be too much too! Agreed on less Lightning Bolt too, but I have never tested a list like that, with 7 burn cards.

Also please Liliana is such a good card I'd play 5 if I could.


Good report Santos :)

I think i will try a singleton Deed in my board too. your board does not seem very combo-effecient. Maybe more pyroblast? I am running 3 Swansong and 1 sea in the board :)

Has anyone tried Urborg, tomb... as a land? I often find myself in need of double black, and im considering cutting one Grove for 1 Urborg.

With hymns and Lilys it is very important for us to get black going, and more than often I end up with opening hands of wasteland, forest, Grove, etc.. No black there..
Im getting one home atm and hope it will prove useful.

True dat! Maybe more Duress? Also I want to try out Urborg as well. It might be dangerous in a BUG matchup though, but yeah. I just got a copy to try out that 4color loam deck, so I should give it a spin on Jund too!

[DOM]

While it is a somewhat decent idea to pack 3 Bayous and 2 Badlands instead of vice versa, I would prefer the other way around. First of all, one Forest on board is good, two green sources are more or less enough. While playing I usually try to establish a setting of a Swamp, Forest, Badlands, Grove of the Burnwillows and then proceed with getting more Badlands, i.e. because having a red mana source that is not Grove is vital if you want to keep recurring your Punishing Fires efficiently.

I usually fetch for Bayou when I already have two Badlands (both on board or a split between on board and in hand, et cetera), need an additional Green mana source (it happens from time to time), need a Green mana source but can not fetch a Forest either because I need to have access to double black for Liliana of the Veil or Hymn to Tourach on that or a following turn or because I am cracking a Bloodstained Mire. Face it, you need :b::b: or :r: more than :g::g: which makes Badlands a superior choice most of the time. Let's not forget that Grove of the Burnwillows produces green mana as well.

The only time when I aggressively try to have as much Green mana as possible is when I am boarding in a singleton Scavenging Ooze and can not rely on Punishing Fires, for example when playing versus Storm or Dredge.

However, despite I am leaning towards the 3 Badlands 2 Bayou split I do agree that having a playset of Badlands is one too many. As I suggested above, swap one Badlands with a fetchland.

[Dice_Box]

So I am many hundreds of dollars poorer and have this complete. (save for a 3rd Badlands, I get that next week) I had no intention of doing that, but I was dared to play my Modern Rock deck in Legacy, stomped face and went "Well Hay..."

But that is not without its issues. I have read over the last two days the last ten pages. I saw a while back everyone talking about 3 library main. I do expect this was mostly due to the meta at the time since everyone has dropped to one. My first question is how useful is a second library main?

My next question is what is the opinion of Life from the Loam in the 75? Since I am now one if 4 Jund decks local I will test, but I am still interested in others views. Since it seams to have gained some traction in the past but then been dropped, I was wondering why.

Lastly, thanks for the write up on 3 Badlands. You more or less confirmed my suspicions and I am glad I asked my mate for his.

Dice.

[aluisiocsantos]

I dunno, I've always had the impression completely different. You need green for Tarmo (4), DRS(4), BBE(3), Abrupt Decay(3), you need it for sideboard Ooze. You need red for Lightning Bolt (2 of in my case) and Punishing Fire (3 of) aaaand 3 for BBE. That's still 14 green mana vs 8. You already have 3+ Grove of Burnwillows which is not a fetchable card, so if you happen actually need red mana, you can fetch for a Badland, but you ALWAYS need black and green mana. I also run one singleton Taiga depending on how black you start out.

Also, people will try to block away your means to play Abrupt Decay, or have double manas. If you have Bayou, Badlands and Grove, they will wasteland either Bayou or Grove, which means you need more bayous so that they can be destroyed and you can step up again as soon as a new fetchland shows up. Dunno, just my two cents. Jund is more like a BG deck rather than a RB one.

Regarding Life from the Loam, I dunno, I took it out of my board because I was jsut never lucky enough to draw the singleton copy I had run back then, so I just gave up on it. I supposed it does have it charms in case you can wastelock an opponent. I just wouldnt count on that every match!

As for Sylvan Library, I used to run 2 copies of it, and now I switched to one, mostly because right now I run Chains of Mephistopheles on the side, so whenever I side Chains in, I side Library out. Library is always good, so the thing about multiple Libraries is not about drawing multiples, but making sure to draw one.

[lemariont]

The more red than green in the majority of jund decks is for the punishing fire. It requires a lot of red for take advantage on board with it.

[aluisiocsantos]

I guess that's correct, after taking a brief look at tcdecks. At tops they have equal amounts, but generally more Badlands. My bad.

[DOM]

In my opinion TC Decks website is amazing for the video database it provides while MTG top 8 and Starcitygames.com are better for viewing decklists as they have a strict filtering.

Life from the Loam has its ups and downs but is a decent choice for Punishing Jund.

+ You can apply Wasteland lock on your opponent.
+ You can recover form opposing Wastelands as well as make sure that you have access to all the colours you need.
+ You may dredge a few times to assemble the Grove + Punishing Fire engine.
+/- If you do not need it, you can always discard it to Liliana of the Veil.
- Loam does not interact with your opponent's board by itself which means that it can be a bad draw when you need removal.
- Waste-lock is not as good later on.
- Sometimes you will find yourself in a situation where you have no lands in your graveyard and top-deck or cascade into LftL.

What is more, Life from the Loam shines in some matchups but is insufficient in others, e.g. it is good versus Jund, BUG, Stoneblade variants, Pox, Lands, Loam, Death and Taxes, RUG, MUD, 12-Post, Maverick and Reanimator to a degree, etc., but is bad against Miracles, Elves, Dredge, Affinity, UR Delver and so on. Consequently, you might consider having it in your sideboard. However, you are more likely to draw it if you keep the card in main. Since Loam can randomly steal you a few games, it seems fairly reasonable to have it in the main and side-out when you do not need it, especially because it is a one-off and you may not even draw it in the matchups it is not particularly good.

[Dice_Box]

That's more or less what I was thinking. But I came to the idea that I would rather have two Library main and cut Loam to the side. Granted, I have mostly played this deck in modern so I don't consider myself at all skilled with it yet. I do want it main, but all I can cut to move it main is one library. I guess I will find my middle ground.

Thanks for the write up.

[WeatherseedMage]

So I'm back from SCG Knoxville with an Open Trial win (hooray $10 entry) and a very frustrating 4-4 finish.

Rd 1: Food Chain combo

g1 he gets everything assembled and gets there. I don't draw an abrupt decay for the food chain.
g2 I board in my 2x Golgari Charm to get the enchantment and my Chains. I wasteland him out of the game
g3 Very close, he has Emrakul in hand and food chain on the board, but hasn't gotten creatures. I use pretty significant discard to keep that from happening, thoughtseize him on a critical turn and take Emrakul, he doesn't get a creature and loses.

This matchup scares me because it's so hard to actually interact with despite having 3 Abrupt Decays and 2 Golgari Charms.
1-0

Rd 2: MUD

g1 I lose to Trinisphere + Golem + Golem + Titan + Key. I make a poor attack, forgetting that Key can untap artifact creatures and lose right there. To be fair, I was probably going to lose anyways and we traded away Golems for Goyfs. My plan would have been close to working as he was at a very low life total and I had another DRS to block the Titan, but that was when I remembered what Sphere does so I packed it in.
g2 I board in Jitte, 2x Ancient Grudge, and Toxic Deluge. T1 thoughtseize takes voltaic key and sees Tomb, Vesuva, Vesuva, Wurmcoil, Wurmcoil, and Titan. I can't win before he decides to just play Wurmcoil on 4 and get there. I didn't draw many creatures, so that was a problem.

This matchup seems pretty bad for us because everything they do is so huge and we/I only have the 2x Ancient Grudge in all reality. Wurmcoil is also just such big game against edict effects and direct damage removal.
1-1

Rd 3: Sneak and Show
g1: I get t3'ed so I lose. Kept a reasonable hand with shaman, lands, bob, goyf, removal spell.
g2: I mulligan to 6 and keep golgari charm, diabolic edict, punishing fire, shaman, lands. I try to play slow basically thinking that with literal nothing else but lands I can at least just answer his things and put him on a 9 turn clock. He turn 3s me again, I go for the EOT edict and he has the FOW. I draw nothing, so that's that.
1-2

Rd 4: Tin Fins
g1: he plays Tendo Ice Bridge and Lotus Petal and Entombs a Griselbrand so I know it's a reanimator variant but then he continues doing things and cantrips and reanimates Griselbrand via Goryo's Vengeance and proceeds to draw 21 cards with a Children of Korlis activation. I remark that if he can't win after that, he ought to rebuild his deck, he finds the Emrakul, trigger on the stack, second Goryo's and we're off to game 2!
g2: I cast Chains of Mephistophles and I think the Judge call to explain what the card does took like 5 minutes so he was out of the game, tried to get back in and lost his line and train of thought, discards the wrong thing and explains afterwards that he could have just won. Chains did it's job. As my friend said, "It's great that Wizards flavors discard and mill as losing your mind and that when you cast Chains, your opponents actually just lose their minds"
g3: I open with Leyline of the Void and eventually also draw a Grafdigger's Cage. It's a slow win, but it gets there.

What I have learned so far is that Griselbrand and Emrakul are very annoying and I am firmly in the "This was a mistake" camp.
2-2

Rd 5: Sneak and Show
g1: I get combo wombo'ed and die. Not a ton of discard in the hand to interact with, but a strong opener with Shamans, Creatures, Lands, Removal.
g2: I get Liliana up to 7 so I've got that going for me. BBE, Tarmogoyf, Bob, Shaman, everything is working great. He scoops before lethal.
g3: I show my inexperience and utter incompetence and don't fetch basics on the first turn and so when he turn 2 blood moons me, I'm pretty fucked. I had a Shaman, I go for the whole BBE, cascade into a Thoughtseize thing. Really wanted that Abrupt Decay, but on the bright side, I did get to see that he was about to win the next turn so I stopped the Sneak Attack. I have Pyroblast in hand, he has Griselbrand and Emrakul and 2 Show and Tells and a Pyroclasm. Here, it's lose to Sneak Attack or get 2 for 1'd by Pyroclasm and try to draw a forest before I lose to a second show and tell. I go for the draw a basic plan (it's not a good plan) obviously, he wipes the board and I have another BBE and Shaman left in hand. He goes for Show and Tell, I Pyroblast it, I rip Pyroblast, he goes for it, third turn I draw a Grove and he drew a Sneak Attack.

Even more convinced that Griselbrand and Emrakul are bullshit, I go to my next round.
2-3

Rd 6: Punishing Jund
g1: We realize it's a mirror and we're x-3. It wasn't Jund's day, so we have a good time. There is another Jund player near us playing against a Miracles matchup. We play it out, he beats me down.
g2: I get better cards than he does in a row and we get to enjoy fun games of fair magic where no one is allowed anything. I win through a sequence of events I have forgotten, but I think I got a grove engine going and left him with nothing.
g3: We duke it out for a while, he uses a Maelstrom Pulse on one Tarmogoyf, I topdeck another, he bricks with lots of lands.

I love fair decks.
3-3

Rd 7: Burn
g1: Fetch -> Basic Mountain. "Huh, that's weird" I think. My face almost melts but DRS doesn't get removed for a while and I get him after we're both at 6, a flame rift occurs and he passes.
g2: He realizes DRS is the worst and kills it. My face melts in hot lava. I do have a Bob that never dings me over the course of 4 turns.
g3: I almost get there via Raging Ravine, I get to do the sick, "Wasteland my own Taiga" play to make it so that I only take 4 from Price. He has other cards in hand which are also full of fire and brimstone. I die.

I don't know how to actually win this matchup besides draw a bunch of discard and make them topdeck for 7+ turns.
3-4

Rd 8: Goblins
g1: First, he asks if I am playing Miracles - if yes, he is done here and wants to go trade. I say no, but it is grindy, and he says okay, we'll play. He realizes I am on Jund, I stop everything he does, he scoops and on to g2.
g2: He tells me that his friend has the deck and they jam games together all the time, so the matchup is actually pretty boring for him. That's fine, I've yet to play against Goblins. I play things and he has a turn 1 Goblin Lackey, I answer with a DRS, he's as frustrated as you would expect. He pitches Pyrokinesis to Pyrokinesis which was a blast from the past if I've seen one. I play a Tarmogoyf, he tries to attack me later on with a second lackey and some other stuff, I have the lightning bolt and he's just like "yeah, I'm just done here. Concede, time to go trade."

Yay creatures that can be interacted with.
4-4

So really, I guess my question is, does anyone have any ideas on how to make the Sneak and Show match up better? I have a maindeck Diabolic Edict as a 1-of, but I dunno how to make the board so that we can actually compete with them outside of their bad plays or blind luck.

Also, for graveyard hate, right now I have Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage. I think they are both solid, but would 2x Surgical Extraction be better than 2x Leyline of the Void (I am comfortable losing the % points of not having it in the opener by only having it as a 2x).

[aluisiocsantos]

I'm currently having one Scavenging Ooze, one Grafdigger's Cage, and one Surgical Extraction for grave hate. I could use one more of it, but I really like the combo of Thoughtseize + Surgical, which is actually very useful for match ups such as Sneak Show. I Think reanimator and such are the best match up asfar as combo can be for us, like, we also have Deathrite Shaman maindeck, and Lilianas to sacrifice their guys.

But yeah, Sneak Show is really problematic. I've been wanting to try Thorn of Amethist for a while, I think it can make every combo match up better for us, from Dredge to Storm to SnT. I gotta test it out tho.

[ironclad8690]

So I'm back from SCG Knoxville with an Open Trial win (hooray $10 entry) and a very frustrating 4-4 finish.

Rd 1: Food Chain combo

g1 he gets everything assembled and gets there. I don't draw an abrupt decay for the food chain.
g2 I board in my 2x Golgari Charm to get the enchantment and my Chains. I wasteland him out of the game
g3 Very close, he has Emrakul in hand and food chain on the board, but hasn't gotten creatures. I use pretty significant discard to keep that from happening, thoughtseize him on a critical turn and take Emrakul, he doesn't get a creature and loses.

This matchup scares me because it's so hard to actually interact with despite having 3 Abrupt Decays and 2 Golgari Charms.
1-0

Rd 2: MUD

g1 I lose to Trinisphere + Golem + Golem + Titan + Key. I make a poor attack, forgetting that Key can untap artifact creatures and lose right there. To be fair, I was probably going to lose anyways and we traded away Golems for Goyfs. My plan would have been close to working as he was at a very low life total and I had another DRS to block the Titan, but that was when I remembered what Sphere does so I packed it in.
g2 I board in Jitte, 2x Ancient Grudge, and Toxic Deluge. T1 thoughtseize takes voltaic key and sees Tomb, Vesuva, Vesuva, Wurmcoil, Wurmcoil, and Titan. I can't win before he decides to just play Wurmcoil on 4 and get there. I didn't draw many creatures, so that was a problem.

This matchup seems pretty bad for us because everything they do is so huge and we/I only have the 2x Ancient Grudge in all reality. Wurmcoil is also just such big game against edict effects and direct damage removal.
1-1

Rd 3: Sneak and Show
g1: I get t3'ed so I lose. Kept a reasonable hand with shaman, lands, bob, goyf, removal spell.
g2: I mulligan to 6 and keep golgari charm, diabolic edict, punishing fire, shaman, lands. I try to play slow basically thinking that with literal nothing else but lands I can at least just answer his things and put him on a 9 turn clock. He turn 3s me again, I go for the EOT edict and he has the FOW. I draw nothing, so that's that.
1-2

Rd 4: Tin Fins
g1: he plays Tendo Ice Bridge and Lotus Petal and Entombs a Griselbrand so I know it's a reanimator variant but then he continues doing things and cantrips and reanimates Griselbrand via Goryo's Vengeance and proceeds to draw 21 cards with a Children of Korlis activation. I remark that if he can't win after that, he ought to rebuild his deck, he finds the Emrakul, trigger on the stack, second Goryo's and we're off to game 2!
g2: I cast Chains of Mephistophles and I think the Judge call to explain what the card does took like 5 minutes so he was out of the game, tried to get back in and lost his line and train of thought, discards the wrong thing and explains afterwards that he could have just won. Chains did it's job. As my friend said, "It's great that Wizards flavors discard and mill as losing your mind and that when you cast Chains, your opponents actually just lose their minds"
g3: I open with Leyline of the Void and eventually also draw a Grafdigger's Cage. It's a slow win, but it gets there.

What I have learned so far is that Griselbrand and Emrakul are very annoying and I am firmly in the "This was a mistake" camp.
2-2

Rd 5: Sneak and Show
g1: I get combo wombo'ed and die. Not a ton of discard in the hand to interact with, but a strong opener with Shamans, Creatures, Lands, Removal.
g2: I get Liliana up to 7 so I've got that going for me. BBE, Tarmogoyf, Bob, Shaman, everything is working great. He scoops before lethal.
g3: I show my inexperience and utter incompetence and don't fetch basics on the first turn and so when he turn 2 blood moons me, I'm pretty fucked. I had a Shaman, I go for the whole BBE, cascade into a Thoughtseize thing. Really wanted that Abrupt Decay, but on the bright side, I did get to see that he was about to win the next turn so I stopped the Sneak Attack. I have Pyroblast in hand, he has Griselbrand and Emrakul and 2 Show and Tells and a Pyroclasm. Here, it's lose to Sneak Attack or get 2 for 1'd by Pyroclasm and try to draw a forest before I lose to a second show and tell. I go for the draw a basic plan (it's not a good plan) obviously, he wipes the board and I have another BBE and Shaman left in hand. He goes for Show and Tell, I Pyroblast it, I rip Pyroblast, he goes for it, third turn I draw a Grove and he drew a Sneak Attack.

Even more convinced that Griselbrand and Emrakul are bullshit, I go to my next round.
2-3

Rd 6: Punishing Jund
g1: We realize it's a mirror and we're x-3. It wasn't Jund's day, so we have a good time. There is another Jund player near us playing against a Miracles matchup. We play it out, he beats me down.
g2: I get better cards than he does in a row and we get to enjoy fun games of fair magic where no one is allowed anything. I win through a sequence of events I have forgotten, but I think I got a grove engine going and left him with nothing.
g3: We duke it out for a while, he uses a Maelstrom Pulse on one Tarmogoyf, I topdeck another, he bricks with lots of lands.

I love fair decks.
3-3

Rd 7: Burn
g1: Fetch -> Basic Mountain. "Huh, that's weird" I think. My face almost melts but DRS doesn't get removed for a while and I get him after we're both at 6, a flame rift occurs and he passes.
g2: He realizes DRS is the worst and kills it. My face melts in hot lava. I do have a Bob that never dings me over the course of 4 turns.
g3: I almost get there via Raging Ravine, I get to do the sick, "Wasteland my own Taiga" play to make it so that I only take 4 from Price. He has other cards in hand which are also full of fire and brimstone. I die.

I don't know how to actually win this matchup besides draw a bunch of discard and make them topdeck for 7+ turns.
3-4

Rd 8: Goblins
g1: First, he asks if I am playing Miracles - if yes, he is done here and wants to go trade. I say no, but it is grindy, and he says okay, we'll play. He realizes I am on Jund, I stop everything he does, he scoops and on to g2.
g2: He tells me that his friend has the deck and they jam games together all the time, so the matchup is actually pretty boring for him. That's fine, I've yet to play against Goblins. I play things and he has a turn 1 Goblin Lackey, I answer with a DRS, he's as frustrated as you would expect. He pitches Pyrokinesis to Pyrokinesis which was a blast from the past if I've seen one. I play a Tarmogoyf, he tries to attack me later on with a second lackey and some other stuff, I have the lightning bolt and he's just like "yeah, I'm just done here. Concede, time to go trade."

Yay creatures that can be interacted with.
4-4

So really, I guess my question is, does anyone have any ideas on how to make the Sneak and Show match up better? I have a maindeck Diabolic Edict as a 1-of, but I dunno how to make the board so that we can actually compete with them outside of their bad plays or blind luck.

Also, for graveyard hate, right now I have Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage. I think they are both solid, but would 2x Surgical Extraction be better than 2x Leyline of the Void (I am comfortable losing the % points of not having it in the opener by only having it as a 2x).

I play pithing needle, 2 surgicals, 3 pyroblasts, 2 duress, and 2 Golgari Charm in my sideboard, all of which come in. I know Razvan played a big game hunter for a little while. Chains of Mephistopheles and Spirit of the Labyrinth can be good. Some people used to play ensnaring bridge, and I have even used choke successfully in this matchup, but I think Phyrexian revoker and Pithing needle are the way to go; paving the way for liliana to make them sac anything else.

Speaking of choke, I am adding two into my board because Miracles is becoming ever so popular lately (particularly the flash version which is super annoying).

Also vs MUD, I have found that match to be heavily draw/dice roll dependent. I think we might be slightly favored post board from ancient grudge and pithing needle (if you pack it). I usually name kudoltha with pithing needle unless there is some voltaic key nonsense going on.

[WeatherseedMage]

I play pithing needle, 2 surgicals, 3 pyroblasts, 2 duress, and 2 Golgari Charm in my sideboard, all of which come in. I know Razvan played a big game hunter for a little while. Chains of Mephistopheles and Spirit of the Labyrinth can be good. Some people used to play ensnaring bridge, and I have even used choke successfully in this matchup, but I think Phyrexian revoker and Pithing needle are the way to go; paving the way for liliana to make them sac anything else.

Speaking of choke, I am adding two into my board because Miracles is becoming ever so popular lately (particularly the flash version which is super annoying).

Also vs MUD, I have found that match to be heavily draw/dice roll dependent. I think we might be slightly favored post board from ancient grudge and pithing needle (if you pack it). I usually name kudoltha with pithing needle unless there is some voltaic key nonsense going on.

Right now, my board is

2x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Chains of Mephistophles
2x Golgari Charm
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Leyline of the Void
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Engineered Plague

I could see Toxic Deluge becoming a Phyrexian Revoker or Pithing Needle (I lean toward Revoker as he attacks and also can name LED) as well as turning the Leylines into Surgical Extractions. Does that hurt the Reanimator/Tin Fins/Dredge match ups significantly? I actually think that Leyline has a lot of play vs Storm archetypes as well (High Tide depends on it's spirals, ANT and TES depend on achieving Threshold for Cabal Ritual and their Past in Flames kill). Can Surgical Extraction have as much play, as long as you aim it at the right targets?

edit: About Choke vs Miracles - I find that to be a match up where you win more often than not against it as it is. You play somewhat conservatively, but Liliana gets there against them. I just don't think I would put in any more sideboard slots than the REBs/Pyroblasts against them. I leave my mainboard library in there too, and bring in Golgari Charms for the enchantments that they will play. You just have to play around a Terminus by not committing everything constantly and play around a Rest in Peace by not solely relying on Goyf. I board a few of them and the Fires out.

[Neffy]

Against MUD i sb in my grafdiggers as it shuts down kuldotha (if searching for creatures) and lets me needle something else.
If they get wurmcoil going, you pretty much lose right there...

I test a lot against miracles and I have found that the key cards are Liliana and P.fire combo.
If you stick a Lily they cant answer it unless with a flash dude (which can die to removal) or EE. P.fire practically makes jace as a win con irrelevant.

As for Sneak and show (and other combo) i use 3 Swan Song and a singleton boarded Underground Sea. It is such flexible card; takes any win con (SnT, Sneak attack, infernal tutor, blue suns' zenith, natural order, GSZ, glimpse of nature, miracles, breakthroughs, etc. etc.
Its just kinda annoying to have a land in the SB..

I am packing this atm:
2 Golgari Charm
2 P. Needle
3 Swan Song
1 U. Sea
3 Pyroblast
2 Duress
2 Grafdigger

I am considering trying out 2-3 Surgical extractions (love the card) and mainly as combo hate, and not so much as a GY hate. (i would still have the Cages). Problem is what to remove..

A bonus INFO for you guys: If you surgical extract, say, a Show and Tell and they play misdirection on it and targets a card in your yard, LET IT RESOLVE! You still choose how many cards to search your library for so you just "fail to find" by choosing 0 copies. (y)

[DOM]

I change some cards in my sideboard every now and then but here is what I currently have sleeved up:

2x Pyroblast
2x Duress
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Engineered Plague
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Scavening Ooze
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Rakdos Charm

I prefer Engineered Plague to Golgari Charm because unlike the latter it can really seal the deal against Elves and does a lot more versus other decks that rely on their creatures and can recover after a board wipe, i.e. Goblins, Death and Taxes, Maverick and against Merfolks because of the TNN.

I seldom use Umezawa's Jitte but it does so much against Burn that I simply can not cut it.

Everything is pretty much stagnant at the moment except a one flexible slot currently occupied with Rakdos Charm.

Regarding MUD matchup, so far it seemed pretty easy. Wastelands do a lot here, Life from the Loam is insane. Goyfs are usually 5/6 or even 6/7 (regular 4/5 + Lily and an artifact) which makes it possible to trade with Wurmcoil Engine's. Maelstrom Pulse takes care of almost anything and can wipe both Wurm tokens at once. Punishing Fire deals with Metalworker, making them brick on mana once again. Discard cards are pretty strong as well. In fact, each card in our deck is good against them. Post board you bring in all the artifact hate and additional discard spells you have and move towards a victory.

Versus Sneak and Show, bringing in more discard, Pyroblasts, Chains of Mephistopheles could be all you need unless they start with a Leyline of Sanctity. If you expect that card, bring in your Golgari Charms as well. I do not think that Diabolic Edict is very good here because if they get to put a Griselbrand, the chances that you will be able to resolve it are pretty slim.

[ironclad8690]

Got 3rd in a 12-man tourney last night.

Lost to Merfolk (TNN + Phantasmal Image in games 2 & 3), but then beat BUG Delver, Patriot Delver, and Mono Green 12-Post.

[o_boogie]

@Neffy

I am really digging the Swan Song tech. How do you find the matchup against Batterskull decks without Ancient Grudge/Krosan Grip/Maelstrom Pulse in the Board? Would it stretch the mana base too thin to put the Underground Sea main in place of a Swamp to free up a sideboard slot?

[aluisiocsantos]

I would never consider taking out a basic Swamp, because you're gonna miss this card in wasteland heavy matchups, however Jund plays several badlands/bayous. I'd try cutting one off the one you have the most of if you're willing to place Underground Sea. Also, I can see it as a misleading tech to try to fool an opponent early game. Maybe even a singleton UB fetchland for further misleading.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I haven't looked at this thread in a week or so, but I will try and address some various concerns from the last page or so.

On Sylvan Library, run two. Three is a little excessive due to the tightness of the decklist, but you want to draw it against the matchups where you really want it (it can single-handedly win the Miracles matchup as well as any midrange matchup).

For the Burn matchup, mulligan aggressively into discard, Deathrite Shaman, and especially Tarmogoyf. I beat burn at SCG: Dallas after being melted game one (kept a slow hand) using this strategy. It's surprisingly difficult for Burn to race a turn one Inquisition, turn 2 Goyf, turn 3 Goyf opening. Fetch basics and be ready to Waste your own nonbasics to not die to Price of Progress.

Against MUD, winning the roll helps a lot. I like to board out a bunch of one-drops on the draw to avoid getting blown out by a Chalice on turn one (Thoughtseize/Inquisition are ok on the play, on the draw I recommend boarding them out). This deck can beat a Wurmcoil Engine because you have so much more card advantage and consistency than they do - it's when Wurmcoil is followed by multiple other big things that you lose (last time I played this matchup I fought through a Wurmcoil Engine AND a Sundering Titan but ended up being ground to death by Smokestack due to a misplay. Still took the match). Never let them untap with Metalworker or you will die. Pernicious Deed out of the board (I run 2) helps enormously in this matchup. Obviously you want to board in any Grudges, Revelries, or Grips you might be running. Hymn to Tourach is devastating.

Swan Song seems bad. This deck does not need another color and it certainly doesn't need cards you never want to cascade into. On a related note, don't ever cut the basics, especially the Swamp. I run 4 basics and have never looked back as they are so strong in so many matchups.

[WeatherseedMage]

I haven't looked at this thread in a week or so, but I will try and address some various concerns from the last page or so.

On Sylvan Library, run two. Three is a little excessive due to the tightness of the decklist, but you want to draw it against the matchups where you really want it (it can single-handedly win the Miracles matchup as well as any midrange matchup).

For the Burn matchup, mulligan aggressively into discard, Deathrite Shaman, and especially Tarmogoyf. I beat burn at SCG: Dallas after being melted game one (kept a slow hand) using this strategy. It's surprisingly difficult for Burn to race a turn one Inquisition, turn 2 Goyf, turn 3 Goyf opening. Fetch basics and be ready to Waste your own nonbasics to not die to Price of Progress.

Against MUD, winning the roll helps a lot. I like to board out a bunch of one-drops on the draw to avoid getting blown out by a Chalice on turn one (Thoughtseize/Inquisition are ok on the play, on the draw I recommend boarding them out). This deck can beat a Wurmcoil Engine because you have so much more card advantage and consistency than they do - it's when Wurmcoil is followed by multiple other big things that you lose (last time I played this matchup I fought through a Wurmcoil Engine AND a Sundering Titan but ended up being ground to death by Smokestack due to a misplay. Still took the match). Never let them untap with Metalworker or you will die. Pernicious Deed out of the board (I run 2) helps enormously in this matchup. Obviously you want to board in any Grudges, Revelries, or Grips you might be running. Hymn to Tourach is devastating.

Swan Song seems bad. This deck does not need another color and it certainly doesn't need cards you never want to cascade into. On a related note, don't ever cut the basics, especially the Swamp. I run 4 basics and have never looked back as they are so strong in so many matchups.

What have you cut to make room for the 2x Sylvan Library and what is your land base like so that you can play 4 basics? The idea is pretty appealing, I imagine you are on 2x Swamp, 1x Forest, 1x Mountain?

Thanks for the tips on MUD. I don't have Deed in my board, though I like it, I just haven't found the room. Maybe it is better than Toxic Deluge. About Burn, I boarded out Thoughtseize against them which might have been a mistake as 2 is still less than 3. Is Reverly a good card to actually have in the board? I like all the things it does, but is it truly better than Ancient Grudge? To be fair, a lot of equipment decks do have DRS to stop the flashback as is. I also don't have a K Grip in my board, a nod to the mana efficiency of Ancient Grudge.

Personally, I'm pretty sold on the Diabolic Edict plan in the mainboard vs a Maelstrom Pulse. They answer different questions, and if I thought I could squeeze another 1 of into the main, I would consider it. I have an Inquisition of Kozilek that I have been plenty satisfied with, but might be better as a Maelstrom Pulse. The Edict is bad against Griselbrand, I will grant that, but so is Pulse. Pulse however, is cold to Emrakul whereas Edict is not. The other thing is that it's another answer to TNN, which I value highly because I don't want to lose to another non-interactive creature.

I will say that the Swan Song out of the board seems pretty spicy, but also pretty terrible. I am not a fan of it as it means boarding out BBE at the minimum. The other thing is that I can't imagine not just going whole hog with it and going deep with something like 1x Underground Sea, 4x Force of Will, 4x Swan Song, 4x Spell Pierce and then filler. If you're going to try to be better at countermagic than your combo opponents, go deep or go home IMO.

For Life From the Loam - does the package really increase the deck's Win% vs the decks that we have problems with? I think our average card quality is just so good that Loaming to get Wastelands is both slow and not as effective as drawing removal spells for on board threats. I also would imagine that it matches up pretty poorly vs DRS. I think that there is a Loam Depths Jund deck running around, so maybe that's what has been discussed, but in Punishing Jund it just seems slow and redundant - you would use a Wasteland lock against a fair deck that you already beat up via Fires, DRS, Goyf, BBE and nearly every other card in the maindeck.

re: Rakdos Charm - I have cut this card from my board as I felt that it was an inferior anything else all the time. Removing a graveyard should probably be a Nihil Spellbomb or a Tormod's Crypt - cantrips or being free is better. If you don't like either of those options, there is Leyline of the Void which does it better on T0, etc. I am currently testing Surgical Extraction and will figure out how much I like it when I can get in some solid games with it. If you're using it for the X damage = creatures vs storm, then I think you will be disappointed. They probably won't make a lethal amount of goblins to them because they will have less than 20 goblins (otherwise they would have just gone for Tendrils and got you), and then you will just wish that you had Maelstrom Pulse. And killing an artifact is done better by Ancient Grudge with flashback, K Grip with split second, Deed with a board wipe, Maelstrom Pulse with additional utility, or Revelery with damage (not something I had really thought about, admittedly). I think that the idea of a split card "remove target yard/blow up an artifact" is nice, but I think that I've found that the more specific answers have been better thusfar.

[Dice_Box]

This is my main right now. If I was to add more basics I would cut a Badlands and a Fetch. But it would be for another Swamp and Forest, not a Mountain.

Spells:
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Enchantments:
2 Sylvan Library

Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Walkers:
4 Liliana of the Veil

Land:
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland

Side:
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate
3 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Nihil Spellbomb

The reason for the Extirpate is the lands decks that are played locally. Surgical does not hit loam when you know they have a Cycling land in hand. I have sat there with the card and just never had a moment I could use it. Switched to the "Fuck you Loam" card and never looked back.

[aluisiocsantos]

You probably forgot to count the wastelands in :P

Also, I dunno how's your sideboard, but I think 4 thoughtseizes is really a must because of combo shenanigans. I like the rest of it though!

[Dice_Box]

I did too. Oops.

My side is a simple affair. I will edit the post.

[Admiral_Arzar]

What have you cut to make room for the 2x Sylvan Library and what is your land base like so that you can play 4 basics? The idea is pretty appealing, I imagine you are on 2x Swamp, 1x Forest, 1x Mountain?

Thanks for the tips on MUD. I don't have Deed in my board, though I like it, I just haven't found the room. Maybe it is better than Toxic Deluge. About Burn, I boarded out Thoughtseize against them which might have been a mistake as 2 is still less than 3. Is Reverly a good card to actually have in the board? I like all the things it does, but is it truly better than Ancient Grudge? To be fair, a lot of equipment decks do have DRS to stop the flashback as is. I also don't have a K Grip in my board, a nod to the mana efficiency of Ancient Grudge.



My current list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire

2 Sylvan Library
4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland

Sideboard

2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
2 Golgari Charm
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pernicious Deed

I run a ton of lands because I've noticed that most of my losses with this deck came from mana-screw, difficult combo matchups excepted. Hymn to Tourach is in the board because I really only want it against combo and perhaps Miracles. Inquisition is much better against the Delver decks that dominate my meta. The Revelry has been pretty solid although I have difficulty justifying it over another Krosan Grip or perhaps a Pithing Needle. I used to run more copies of Grudge but the card is narrow and you don't want to draw multiples usually. I highly recommend Pernicious Deed in the board for three reasons: it's a versatile sweeper against swarms (just don't bring it in against RUG, Stifle is a blowout), it kills TNN, and it sweeps away all the lock pieces ever from the many fringe prison decks you might run into (MUD, Enchantress, Chalice Aggro, Imperial Painter, even some Miracles variants will have lots of targets for this). In that way Deed serves as my insurance against randomness, being a one-sided blowout against many of these T2-3 decks while having utility against most of the decks to beat as well.

[aluisiocsantos]

I really like your approach to Hymn to Tourach, I just might try that out, since I board it out msot of the time vs fair decks.

Also, agreed on Pernicious Deed, it's just such a table turner, though I have to say it actually saved my life in a RUG match, though I had the knowledge they didn't have stifle in hand so..

[Admiral_Arzar]

I really like your approach to Hymn to Tourach, I just might try that out, since I board it out msot of the time vs fair decks.

Also, agreed on Pernicious Deed, it's just such a table turner, though I have to say it actually saved my life in a RUG match, though I had the knowledge they didn't have stifle in hand so..

Fetching nonbasics to cast early Hymns lost me too many games against Delver and Death 'N Taxes. I feel like the card just isn't necessary in these matchups, and Inquisition is less likely to get Dazed etc.

[litenkatt]

So in 2 weeks from now I'll be attending a rather large tournament. I'm very rarley playing in tournaments due to lack of tournaments in the first place, and also I'm living in a town where legacy isn't very popular. I'll be driving for 3 hours to another town where the tournament will be held.

Anyways. I'll be playing Jund with a white splash for Lingering Souls and some better SB options against Combo decks (thalia, ethersworn canonist mainly)

List looks like this atm

CREATURES (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
ENCHANTMENTS (2)
2 Sylvan Library
SORCERIES (10)
4 Lingering Souls
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
INSTANTS (8)
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
PLANESWALKERS (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
LANDS (24)
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Pithing Needle
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Plague
2 Duress
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben


I've play tested quite a bit, mostly against deathblade/reanimate/miracles and I've learned the following: Lingering Souls is quite the card. It buys you time, it kills planeswalkers, it kills your opponent, it defends liliana and it's extremley awkard for the opponent to counter/discard/kill (Like using a plow on it when we have so much better targets in our deck) it (free win against pox). So playing souls instead of BBE. BBE is a good card, but has some issues. 1) it has cmc4 2) cascading into discard is often very poor 3) dies easily to almost anything 4) TNN

3 Surgical 2 Cage in the SB is enough to beat GY based decks. Very happy with it
2 Needles. Love this card, good against miracles and a lot of combo decks.
Not sure about the Thalia/Canonist split

Playing 24 lands, 0 basics. This could cause problems ofc, but feels like 24 lands is a lot for a deck that curves out at 3. Think I'll be fine

[aluisiocsantos]

Its kind of the approach of modern jund pre-deathite ban. BBE iS the bomb vs planeswalkers though. LSouls will never put a 3/2 haste AND a liliana for 4 mana. Maybe you can shave some other spells.. Like no bolts for it, but i like it. Greedy manabase though with no basics


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Secretly.A.Bee]

This is my main right now. If I was to add more basics I would cut a Badlands and a Fetch. But it would be for another Swamp and Forest, not a Mountain.

Spells:
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Enchantments:
2 Sylvan Library

Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Walkers:
4 Liliana of the Veil

Land:
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland

Side:
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate
3 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Nihil Spellbomb

The reason for the Extirpate is the lands decks that are played locally. Surgical does not hit loam when you know they have a Cycling land in hand. I have sat there with the card and just never had a moment I could use it. Switched to the "Fuck you Loam" card and never looked back.

How does Extirpate solve this scenario? Maybe I missed a rules change or had it explained to me incorrectly, but Cycling doesn't use the stack, and I was under the impression that even against Split Second they can still cycle and replace the draw with Dredge. Do you have a ruling for that? I'd like it confirmed...

-ABC

[kubalonek]

702.26a. Cycling is an activated ability that functions only while the card with cycling is in a player's hand. "Cycling [cost]" means "[Cost], Discard this card: Draw a card."

702.58a. Split second is a static ability that functions only while the spell with split second is on the stack. "Split second" means "As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't cast other spells or activate abilities that aren't mana abilities."


I guess this will help :)

[Dice_Box]

Bingo. Thanks for that.

I find that if you play right, Extirpate is the better card. There are no small amount of situations where the card costing actual mana is a pain, but getting the last word in can really help. The one target you should not go for is Punishing Fire though unless it is in responce to its trigger. That's a fun trick I have caught out others on.

What do people think of the mirror match? I played it last night, felt like a waiting game until one of us got the edge or made a mistake. I mean, I have read the primer, but I would ask others options. It turns out there are 5 Jund decks in a pool of 30 players. So the 2/1 or 3/0 slot normally ends up a mirror match.

[aluisiocsantos]

Yeah, P.Fire functions differently since dude can tap Grove for Red mana and then P.Fire's thing is a triggered, not activated ability, correct?

Extirpate is a great card, probably the best thing vs reanimator/manaless dredge, but I think that costing a Phyrexian mana adds so much versatility on Surgical Extraction, such as the ability to, let's say, Thoughtseize Sneak Attack in the first turn and S.Extract it immediately. And you can still play it in response of a cycle land.

[Dice_Box]

It is a trigger yes and you can tap Grove in response to Split second triggering Fire, then pay the red and gain the fire. The funny bit being that since Split Second is in effect, they can not respond to the trigger with anything. The Trigger is free to resolve and you get fire back, Extirpate has no legal target and is counted and everyone moves on there merry way.

The issue I have found against Loam decks is that, once they have two cycle lands, they will pull them both back at the same time with Loam. This means that they never give you a chance to hit it "In Response" since they have a response of their own. It gets so bothersome that I just decided to go the simple route and remove that chance from them. Yes, I lose a good part of what makes Extraction good, and if I was to go to an event I would switch them over, but locally I feel that what I have got now is the best option.

[cab0747]

Hey everyone!

First, I apologize if this question has been asked and answered before (I used the search function with no real results.) Second, I am new-ish to Legacy: I have access to a few decks, but not a lot of time to play them. The lady-friend likes spending time together on weekends and it seems that is the only time Legacy fires in my area. I put together Jund because I had the Modern version, I had the Groves from building Tron, and I had the duals laying around from years ago. I sleeved it up to take to a friend house where people were just play-testing. It turns out I really liked the deck and I would consider playing it regularly (once I have the time, of course.)

Anyways, my question is this: Against an unknown opponent, do you ALWAYS go T1 discard over T1 DRS? I know there are many factors that can go into this (on the play or on the draw, the make-up of the rest of your hand, etc.) However, I am looking for a general rule here. T2 Liliana's are tempting, but if you go up against combo, T1 discard seems the safest bet.

Thanks in advance!

[aluisiocsantos]

Unless you know you are facing a combo opponent on G1 (like seeing him playing on a previous round), I'd always go turn one Deathrite, because well, you might even do Thoughtseize + Hymn to Tourach turn 2. They HATE hymn to tourach, and you can "pitch for fow" with Thoughseize ha.

And then if it isn't a combo you probably got the edge against Wasteland.