[Deck] Jund

[juzamjimjams]

Na not much combo in my local meta that consistantly plays, mostly value creatures (stone forge, moms,etc). At larger events where i expect storm i can always switch to shardless or delver.....i would imagine chains helps with high tide
For storm do you just play pithing needle +discard

The problem with pithing needle against storm is that there's no real targets to name, as LED's ability is mana ability.
It's still probably worth bringing in because sometimes you can get their fetch lands, and our removal suite is pretty close to dead in this match up.

Generally any amount of graveyard hate is good to bring in in this match up as it makes the past in flames kill significantly more difficult.
Chains is obviously also good against storm strategies, just be aware it doesn't turn off the ad naus kill.
And then obviously any additional discard comes in.

[sampi]

Yeah giving them black lotus over led isn't terrible for them . Has anyone tested rakdos charm? But if storm is very prevalent in your meta . Try mindbreak traps.

[AngryTroll]

Hello,
Can you guys tell me what kind of meta rhis dexk eants to be in? To give you an example of that im playing against here is my 9 man tourny that went off today.
3 infect (could easily be 4 but my friend was a no show)
1 d&t
1 junk deathblade
1 brew (like red blue flyers...looked like jank)
1 burn
1 manaless dredge
Shardless(me)

I also play against r/u delver.....woukd this deck be good in the meta?


Hows infect?
It seems like my meta blew up with it. Other than that my meta consists of the occasional storm and high tode decks. But ita rare

Sudden Shock is an incredible piece of removal. It's extremely potent against Infect; as noted, they can actually counter Abrupt Decay with Vines of Vastwood and Lightning Bolt with Vines and Invigorate. Remember that (except for Sudden Shock) you need to use your removal on your turn, not on their turn; you'd much rather have them burn a Vines on your turn to counter Abrupt Decay than on their turn where it is also worth 4 poison.

Sudden Shock looks perfect for your metagame. It's excellent against Infect and Death and Taxes, where it always kills Mother of Runes and increases your outs to Mirran Crusader. It will do work against Deathblade decks as well.

As noted, Jund is at its worst against combo decks, and your meta looks like it's full of fair decks. Manaless Dredge is straightforward to beat: dedicate serious sideboard slots to that matchup. It won't get you to 100% against the deck, but, given advance notice, I'd rather face Manaless Dredge than either Storm deck.




Has anyone tested rakdos charm?

I've run a singleton Rakdos Charm in my sideboard at times alongside a mix of Grafdigger's Cage and Nihil Spellbomb and alongside a Maelstrom Pulse and Ancient Grudge. It's obviously worse graveyard removal than the artifacts and worse artifact removal than Ancient Grudge, but the fact that it does both might save a single sideboard slot. Jund has a lot of dead cards to board out against Dredge and Reanimator, so a mediocre graveyard removal spell is worth bringing in. It's more questionable against Deathblade, where Maelstrom Pulse, Ancient Grudge, and Pyroblast are all great cards to bring in and there aren't tons of cards that need to come out.

[Claymore]

You can also burn removal against Infect at the end of their turn. Good time for trying to kill off their Inkmoths and then untapping into more removal attempts.

[Whit3boy316]

You can also burn removal against Infect at the end of their turn. Good time for trying to kill off their Inkmoths and then untapping into more removal attempts.

I may have to try out jund then...i love it in modern...now i just have to go get groves ughh

[AngryTroll]

I may have to try out jund then...i love it in modern...now i just have to go get groves ughh

If you have the Badlands, Bayous, and a Taiga, there are a variety of Grove-less builds of Jund you can play until you acquire the Grove of the Burnwillows. I started by playing un-Punishing lists and still haven't purchased Groves. Punishing Fire is an amazing removal engine, but you pay a real cost in the manabase to support the Groves.

[Whit3boy316]

If you have the Badlands, Bayous, and a Taiga, there are a variety of Grove-less builds of Jund you can play until you acquire the Grove of the Burnwillows. I started by playing un-Punishing lists and still haven't purchased Groves. Punishing Fire is an amazing removal engine, but you pay a real cost in the manabase to support the Groves.

Interesting i may have to look into those lists

[defector]

I personally hate Grove in Jund. I think if you get away from the groves you get a more streamlined discard deck that helps your combo mus. First though just build it and start playing it, its a fun deck to play that can go in several design directions. I wouldn't commit any money to anything until the b/r announcement, but if youve got the mana base minus groves go get some games in:))

[Ardenzin]

I personally hate Grove in Jund. I think if you get away from the groves you get a more streamlined discard deck that helps your combo mus. First though just build it and start playing it, its a fun deck to play that can go in several design directions. I wouldn't commit any money to anything until the b/r announcement, but if youve got the mana base minus groves go get some games in:))

Can't agree more . . . Jund without the Pfire combo works perfectly fine. In addition, I've been trying out 3 Sinkholes maindeck lately and I feel like it's just perfect in this current meta.

[Nuke is Good]

I personally hate Grove in Jund. I think if you get away from the groves you get a more streamlined discard deck that helps your combo mus. First though just build it and start playing it, its a fun deck to play that can go in several design directions. I wouldn't commit any money to anything until the b/r announcement, but if youve got the mana base minus groves go get some games in:))

I switched back and forth between Non-Punishing and Punishing Jund. When Omnitell was all over the damn place, I switched to a non punishing build that had a lot more discard and MD Chains. Now I went back to the stock Punishing List, as creature based strategies are back in the fold. The manabase in a non punishing build is a huge plus I will say, it even lets you run blood moon if you feel daring.

[sdematt]

Punishing can play a very strong control game. Don't discount the usefulness. It's true, Grove does nug your manabase a bit, so play a one-of Loam main to supplement with good mana development.

[Whit3boy316]

I personally hate Grove in Jund. I think if you get away from the groves you get a more streamlined discard deck that helps your combo mus. First though just build it and start playing it, its a fun deck to play that can go in several design directions. I wouldn't commit any money to anything until the b/r announcement, but if youve got the mana base minus groves go get some games in:))

Is there a reason ti wait for the b/r list? Hopefully goodbye top

[defector]

i'm hoping the goodbye top as well:) The only reason to wait is that lately when they ban something they unban something else, now none of those have had format impact since prbably Time Spiral, but who knows, if they unban mind twist or earthcraft those could have design ramifications for us. Also, if Top goes we may be on the worng deck and it may be time to migrate to Junk. I think no matter what the B/G core of Deathrite and AD will have a tier one list, but without miracles directing the metagame we may want to shift towards a deck with swords over lightning bolt, again all speculation on my part, we'll see come the 18th:)

[Whit3boy316]

i'm hoping the goodbye top as well:) The only reason to wait is that lately when they ban something they unban something else, now none of those have had format impact since prbably Time Spiral, but who knows, if they unban mind twist or earthcraft those could have design ramifications for us. Also, if Top goes we may be on the worng deck and it may be time to migrate to Junk. I think no matter what the B/G core of Deathrite and AD will have a tier one list, but without miracles directing the metagame we may want to shift towards a deck with swords over lightning bolt, again all speculation on my part, we'll see come the 18th:)

One question i thought of when you spoke about b/g decks is why someone would chose jund over shardless? I personally play shardless now and i love it but it doesnt seem to have enough removal for my d&t, infect meta :(...thats why im considering the move to jund

[sdematt]

One question i thought of when you spoke about b/g decks is why someone would chose jund over shardless? I personally play shardless now and i love it but it doesnt seem to have enough removal for my d&t, infect meta :(...thats why im considering the move to jund

Because of Punishing Fires so you can have a better long game and control game.

[HateKnuckle]

One question i thought of when you spoke about b/g decks is why someone would chose jund over shardless? I personally play shardless now and i love it but it doesnt seem to have enough removal for my d&t, infect meta :(...thats why im considering the move to jund

I built Shardless because of the shitty combo MU I have with Jund but I'm sitting here looking at SUPER removal light hands wondering how I win against the creature heavy meta. I guess it comes down to what you want to lose to. Do you want to lose to the rare combo deck or the popular creature deck? As Shardless you have a chance against creature decks and comb but as Jund you have a GREAT creature MU but one of the worst combo MUs.

[HateKnuckle]

How do we beat Storm? After losing to Caleb Scherer at Worcester I asked him how I'm supposed to beat him and he said that you have to hope for the Thoughtseize or Hymn but I had the damn Hymn T2 and he won right through it. He said that some guys in his area who play Jund are STILL trying to figure it out but they don't have anything yet.

Like how the fuck can there not be any way to actually combat Storm? We don't have a silver bullet. We just have MD cards that we try to increase the number of hoping that that's enough.

[aluisiocsantos]

How do we beat Storm? After losing to Caleb Scherer at Worcester I asked him how I'm supposed to beat him and he said that you have to hope for the Thoughtseize or Hymn but I had the damn Hymn T2 and he won right through it. He said that some guys in his area who play Jund are STILL trying to figure it out but they don't have anything yet.

Like how the fuck can there not be any way to actually combat Storm? We don't have a silver bullet. We just have MD cards that we try to increase the number of hoping that that's enough.

Null Rod, Chains of Mephisto, extra discard, or go the Zoo route and play some Mindbreak Trap if you think you're facing way too much storm.

[AngryTroll]

----------The Combo Matchup----------
I've been debating running Inquisition of Kozilek over Hymn to Tourach in the maindeck. Hymn is a more brutal card, but IoK increases your number of turn one plays (which are a bit sparse, while the two-drop slot is very crowded) and increases the potency of your second turn if you lead with a Deathrite Shaman. It's disappointing to cascade into IoK instead of Hymn, but I think the curve-smoothing might be worthwhile. It also lowers your curve a bit for Dark Confidant. I think IoK has a slight edge against combo when compared to Hymn.

In addition to 4 Thoughtseize, 3 Inquisition of Kozilek (or Hymn to Tourach), and 4 Liliana of the Veil, I run 2 Kolaghan's Command in the maindeck. My board plan is 3 Duress and 2 Slaughter Games against combo. Depending upon the flavor of combo you face most often, Pyroblast is often in my board as well to nail Brainstorms or Show and Tell.


----------New Cards----------
Might Collective Brutality* earn slots in Jund? The Disfigure and Duress modes are both relevant, and, as discussed immediately above this post, the deck could use some more disruption maindeck. In the lists I'm playing it seems like Collective Brutality competes most directly with Kolaghan's Command for versatility, but Command appears to be a much stronger card.

*New cards not loading at this time, so for reference:
Collective Brutatity 1B
Sorcery
Escalate-Discard a card.
Choose one or more:
Disfigure,
Duress for an instant or sorcery,
Tendrils of Agony with storm count 0.

[Claymore]

Lock permanents seemed to have the most effect when I played Jund. Discard followed up by Thorn, DRS, Chains, and Liliana to clean up. Likely could go the slow Chalice route too and hinge on getting the turn 1 interaction.

Imperial Taxes (I think) has had luck with Scab-Clan Berserker in the past. Obscenely slow outside of a risky DRS start, but we can usually slow storm down a turn or two...Thoughtseize, Thorn, Berserker seems good.

[Seraphix]

How do we beat Storm? After losing to Caleb Scherer at Worcester I asked him how I'm supposed to beat him and he said that you have to hope for the Thoughtseize or Hymn but I had the damn Hymn T2 and he won right through it. He said that some guys in his area who play Jund are STILL trying to figure it out but they don't have anything yet.

Like how the fuck can there not be any way to actually combat Storm? We don't have a silver bullet. We just have MD cards that we try to increase the number of hoping that that's enough.

Storm isn't a great matchup but is very winnable. You want to knock them off balance with early discard and then stick a Liliana, which wins given enough time. This is a matchup where I love having Duress in the SB to complement TS/Hymn. Surgical is also fantastic when coupled with discard. I've had Storm players scoop to Surgical on Infernal Tutor.

For permanent-based hate, Null Rod, Pyrostatic Pillar, Thorn of Amethyst, Phyrexian Revoker, Trinisphere, and Grafdigger's Cage (shuts off PiF) are all options.

[HateKnuckle]

Null Rod, Chains of Mephisto, extra discard, or go the Zoo route and play some Mindbreak Trap if you think you're facing way too much storm.

The problem isn't that I'm facing too much Storm but that I'm facing unbeatable Storm. I can't say that I'm interested in spending $400 on a SB card. I played discard and Storm won through it. Looks like I'm going Mindbreak Trap or bust.

[aluisiocsantos]

The problem isn't that I'm facing too much Storm but that I'm facing unbeatable Storm. I can't say that I'm interested in spending $400 on a SB card. I played discard and Storm won through it. Looks like I'm going Mindbreak Trap or bust.

That said you can probably board Chains in vs about every blue deck ever. It simply wrecks the shit out of them. Also vs other decks running Sylvan Library.

[Claymore]

Chains isn't the only hate piece. Thorn and Chalice will come down turn 2 to slow Storm down, follow up with Trinisphere or Liliana. Discard isn't enough, and most Storm will run discard spells of their own to take out Traps.

[defector]

Traps are very tough to play against Storm as they keep the probes in and get after you with discard of their own. I use 4 cage and a null rod and a chains, but I'm still behind in the mu. Its just not a good mu for us.

[sdematt]

Traps are very tough to play against Storm as they keep the probes in and get after you with discard of their own. I use 4 cage and a null rod and a chains, but I'm still behind in the mu. Its just not a good mu for us.

The matchup is pretty bad. I would concentrate on Delver, Miracles, and Eldrazi. Discard combined with Slaughter Games and Cage should get you there enough of the time. Chains is fine, but he doesnt pull his weight for cost of purchase. Id rather just Choke or Boil some fools.

[sdematt]

Just an FYI to say that Avalanche Riders is doing fucking WORK in testing against Miracles.

[Qweerios]

The old SB Sinkhole tech still works wonders against Miracle. Probably better than Riders and more relevant in various matchups.

[aluisiocsantos]

Just an FYI to say that Avalanche Riders is doing fucking WORK in testing against Miracles.

This does sound awesome, plus it's Haste, which is a very difficult thing for Miracles to answer. Specially that you can hit Jace, and Jace WON't want to knock it back to your hand.

[sdematt]

This does sound awesome, plus it's Haste, which is a very difficult thing for Miracles to answer. Specially that you can hit Jace, and Jace WON't want to knock it back to your hand.

Played more Miracles and it was good. 4 is a bit of a bitch, just like Bloodbraid, but nuking basics to destabilize them has been okay. Was a bit slow against Eldrazi, though.

[Sergi]

Have you tryied recently any list without the Punishing Fire package? My meta has a lot of Reanimator and Eldrazi and S&T decks, and the Pfire lists seems too slow and also 3/4 groves impacts in the manabase. Returning to list with Grim lavamancers, more red i.e rabblemaster and Blood moon in side could also help with the loss of Pfires against eldrazi lists.

Just to speed up the first turns, wouldn't be possible to include some number of dark rituals in order to cast turn 1 liliana or TS/deathrite + Hymn? I know that in lategame are terrible, but worst case we can eat our dark rituals with deathrites or grim lavamancers.

[aluisiocsantos]

Have you tryied recently any list without the Punishing Fire package? My meta has a lot of Reanimator and Eldrazi and S&T decks, and the Pfire lists seems too slow and also 3/4 groves impacts in the manabase. Returning to list with Grim lavamancers, more red i.e rabblemaster and Blood moon in side could also help with the loss of Pfires against eldrazi lists.

Just to speed up the first turns, wouldn't be possible to include some number of dark rituals in order to cast turn 1 liliana or TS/deathrite + Hymn? I know that in lategame are terrible, but worst case we can eat our dark rituals with deathrites or grim lavamancers.

Might as well as just play pox?

[Sergi]

Might as well as just play pox?

Because of the price of the actual pox... (chains, abyss, tabernacle...) also I prefer to go more aggro.

[aluisiocsantos]

True enough, but if you are ditching the PFire package for Grim Lavamancers, let's say you go from 7 cards to 3 or 4? The main problem with Lavamancers is that they are easy to deal with - in the grindy matches you'll need them the only way to stop you would be wastelands, but now it's both a well placed wasteland on a dual or a sword to plowshares on GL. You could try that though, and go overboard with 4 bolts and more indeck discards such as both Kozilek and TS and etc for the extra reach vs combo. When TNN was a thing I'd run a few Chainer's Edict. Good vs Sneak Show.

That said GL is far weaker than PF when it comes to fair matches.

[Sergi]

True enough, but if you are ditching the PFire package for Grim Lavamancers, let's say you go from 7 cards to 3 or 4? The main problem with Lavamancers is that they are easy to deal with - in the grindy matches you'll need them the only way to stop you would be wastelands, but now it's both a well placed wasteland on a dual or a sword to plowshares on GL. You could try that though, and go overboard with 4 bolts and more indeck discards such as both Kozilek and TS and etc for the extra reach vs combo. When TNN was a thing I'd run a few Chainer's Edict. Good vs Sneak Show.

That said GL is far weaker than PF when it comes to fair matches.

The plan is increase bolts to 4 MD (+1 increase) and 2 Grim Lavamcers. The other 3/4 slots (lands) will be replaced with corresponding duals giving more consitency to the deck as previoulsy discussed in this thread.

Grim Lavamancer is another permament that they need to deal with, so less hate againt your Goyfs or Deathrites. Removing punishing and increasing "Graveyard users", makes you stronger against opponent's surgical.
Grindy matches, you will fill your graveyard for using against them for doing 2 damange even with DS or GL. This also helps reducing the deck curve (-3 cards with CMC 2 & +3 CMC 1) and allows to include some threat with higher mana cost to compensate Dark Confidant draws.

I agree with the extra edict effect vs Sneak & Show decks.

[yaWgnorW]

The plan is increase bolts to 4 MD (+1 increase) and 2 Grim Lavamcers. The other 3/4 slots (lands) will be replaced with corresponding duals giving more consitency to the deck as previoulsy discussed in this thread.

Grim Lavamancer is another permament that they need to deal with, so less hate againt your Goyfs or Deathrites. Removing punishing and increasing "Graveyard users", makes you stronger against opponent's surgical.
Grindy matches, you will fill your graveyard for using against them for doing 2 damange even with DS or GL. This also helps reducing the deck curve (-3 cards with CMC 2 & +3 CMC 1) and allows to include some threat with higher mana cost to compensate Dark Confidant draws.

I agree with the extra edict effect vs Sneak & Show decks.

I personally never cared for Pfire. I'm often on the fence with BBE too, but I have never comfortably ran Pfire. Usually meta's are to diverse for me think it would be a wise choice. I also prefer the much more consistent mana base that comes from it. That being said, I run 4 Wastelands too, which I believe Pfire builds may not be able to adequately capitalize on.

[Whit3boy316]

Just made the jund (have played it in mdern for over a year) and i was able to walk miracles consistantly. If it could hymn qnd get lilly down it was pretty easy....however, i struggles against matches i thought jund would shine like dnt and infect. Is this normal? It makes me so sad....im playing pfore btw

[Seraphix]

Just made the jund (have played it in mdern for over a year) and i was able to walk miracles consistantly. If it could hymn qnd get lilly down it was pretty easy....however, i struggles against matches i thought jund would shine like dnt and infect. Is this normal? It makes me so sad....im playing pfore btw

D&T can be a surprisingly difficult matchup. We have a lot of removal against them, but the problem is that if your removal lines up incorrectly you will get into a lot of trouble quickly (Examples: you can't kill Mother on the draw, you have Fire when they have Avenger or Decay when they have Crusader).

Against Infect you have to play carefully since they can kill out of nowhere. Sometimes they'll just have it and kill you through removal. Try to use burn on their creatures on your turn to not get killed by pump spells in combat, play around Vines to the best of your ability. We're very favored in the long game here. Inkmoth can be their scariest threat since it can't be Decay'ed and outside of Wasteland we have to interact with it on their turn.

For your situation I'd suggest playing at least 3 Bolts main. Cheap removal is at a premium against these decks in general and especially on the draw. Golgari Charm is also a nice SB card against both decks, since it kills creatures and RIP (sometimes played in Infect too), and Library out of Infect.

[Whit3boy316]

D&T can be a surprisingly difficult matchup. We have a lot of removal against them, but the problem is that if your removal lines up incorrectly you will get into a lot of trouble quickly (Examples: you can't kill Mother on the draw, you have Fire when they have Avenger or Decay when they have Crusader).

Against Infect you have to play carefully since they can kill out of nowhere. Sometimes they'll just have it and kill you through removal. Try to use burn on their creatures on your turn to not get killed by pump spells in combat, play around Vines to the best of your ability. We're very favored in the long game here. Inkmoth can be their scariest threat since it can't be Decay'ed and outside of Wasteland we have to interact with it on their turn.

For your situation I'd suggest playing at least 3 Bolts main. Cheap removal is at a premium against these decks in general and especially on the draw. Golgari Charm is also a nice SB card against both decks, since it kills creatures and RIP (sometimes played in Infect too), and Library out of Infect.

Yes it seemed hard to remove the inkomoths. They were my main fear. It got to a point where i tried to wasteland one, my friend would animate it then vines it......i didnt it coming...dnt was rough. Id have pfire and abrupt but only have 3 lands, it was rough overall

[Seraphix]

Yes it seemed hard to remove the inkomoths. They were my main fear. It got to a point where i tried to wasteland one, my friend would animate it then vines it......i didnt it coming...dnt was rough. Id have pfire and abrupt but only have 3 lands, it was rough overall

Other SB choices effective vs Inkmoth: Pithing Needle, Life from the Loam, Tsabo's Web, Krosan Grip, Ancient Grudge. These are all applicable in other matchups as well.

[maharis]

Got to Jund 'em out last night at the local. 3-0 beating RUG Delver, D&T, and Food Chain. 6-0 in games where I cast Kolaghan's Command. Card is blowout personified.

4 DRS
4 Bob
4 Goyf
3 BBE
1 Lavamancer

4 Liliana OTV
3 Bolt
3 Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn
2 Sylvan Library
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Life from the Loam

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
2 Foothills
2 Mire
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Taiga

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Pyroblast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 EE
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember
1 Garruk Relentless

[Cire]

Bit of a Necro, but this is the only premade legacy deck that runs red and doesn't run artifacts (other than . . . UR delver I guess, but this is more mid-range than tempo) and I thought of this "combo" which may or may not be welcome in the deck:

http://media.wizards.com/2016/bVvMNuiu2i_KLD/en_eSMEunNZ2Ab.png

plus

Platinum Emperion

The thought is that the deck can make room for what is essentially a 3R 8/8 that also acts as protection . . . idk. I thought it was a neat interaction, that doesn't really make sense in any other deck. may not make sense in this deck, but just throwing it out there.

[maharis]

Kind of sad that this deck has seemingly fallen out of favor because it's such a blast. I went 3-0 again last night, basically the same list with some sideboard tweaks, beating Deadguy Ale, Elves, and Eldrazi. Up to 9-0 in games where I cast Kolaghan's Command.


Bit of a Necro, but this is the only premade legacy deck that runs red and doesn't run artifacts (other than . . . UR delver I guess, but this is more mid-range than tempo) and I thought of this "combo" which may or may not be welcome in the deck

I don't think this is the right home for it because Platinum Emperion + Bob is very tense, haha. Maybe a Jund-colored shell of some sort though.

[Sergi]

This card will be better in an enlightened tutor deck. Maybe imperial painter.

[Whit3boy316]

Kind of sad that this deck has seemingly fallen out of favor because it's such a blast. I went 3-0 again last night, basically the same list with some sideboard tweaks, beating Deadguy Ale, Elves, and Eldrazi. Up to 9-0 in games where I cast Kolaghan's Command.

Out of curiosity, why do you not play puniching fire? I play against infect and dnt all the time so its super value for me


I don't think this is the right home for it because Platinum Emperion + Bob is very tense, haha. Maybe a Jund-colored shell of some sort though.

[H]

Out of curiosity, why do you not play puniching fire? I play against infect and dnt all the time so its super value for me

Punishing Fire is a great card, no doubt. Not to speak for maharis, but Jund's issue is always consistency. Having to run Grove of the Burnwillows really makes your mana-base a liability. It certainly isn't wrong to run it, or not, it's just different.

I think one question most people that run Jund should be asking is if they should fit in some number of Grim Flayers. If you run Punishing Fires, I think the answer is definitely yes, since it helps with the consistency of finding both parts and in general.

[maharis]

I simply don't own groves. I do think the mana is better than it would be but I have no point of comparison. However, I've beaten jund players in the past by keeping them off B with wasteland. I also think in some matchups like the ones you mentioned being able to pass t1 on the draw with 1 mana open and nuke their opener while still doing something t2 is good. Hitting a Mom, infect creature, or Eldrazi mimic for example.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[maharis]

Also Kolaghan's Command is insane. Killing their guy and retrieving a BBE at their EOT feels so good. I think it goes a long way toward making up for the value of the PF engine while being a sick cascade and dealing with Chalice & equips


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AngryTroll]

(Maharis' list)

My "un-Punishing Jund" list is four cards off of that maindeck. I run -1 Grim Lavamancer, -1 Life from the Loam, -1 Phyrexian Arena, -1 Maelstrom Pulse, +1 Lightning Bolt, +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Thoughtseize, and +1 Hymn to Tourach. I treat the three Bloodbraid Elf slots as flex slots; I've experimented with BBE, 2 Garruk Relentless, Sylvan Library #3, 3 Grim Lavamancers, Huntmaster of the Fells, singleton Life from the Loams, Maelstrom Pulses, the works. I'm never really satisfied with those slots.

How has Phyrexian Arena been treating you?

I agree with how strong Kolaghan's Command is in the format. It is almost always a blowout for me.

I'm in the same boat with regards to Grove of the Burnwillow. Grove-less Jund does get a better manabase than the Punishing Fire version, but I'm not convinced that it's a better deck. However, without $200 to spend on Groves, I've been very happy with the "Un-Punishing" Jund lists.

[maharis]

My "un-Punishing Jund" list is four cards off of that maindeck. I run -1 Grim Lavamancer, -1 Life from the Loam, -1 Phyrexian Arena, -1 Maelstrom Pulse, +1 Lightning Bolt, +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Thoughtseize, and +1 Hymn to Tourach. I treat the three Bloodbraid Elf slots as flex slots; I've experimented with BBE, 2 Garruk Relentless, Sylvan Library #3, 3 Grim Lavamancers, Huntmaster of the Fells, singleton Life from the Loams, Maelstrom Pulses, the works. I'm never really satisfied with those slots.

How has Phyrexian Arena been treating you?

I agree with how strong Kolaghan's Command is in the format. It is almost always a blowout for me.

I'm in the same boat with regards to Grove of the Burnwillow. Grove-less Jund does get a better manabase than the Punishing Fire version, but I'm not convinced that it's a better deck. However, without $200 to spend on Groves, I've been very happy with the "Un-Punishing" Jund lists.

Ha, to be honest I had 4 bolt and 4 decay originally but cut one bolt for grim and one decay for pulse just to diversify a bit. The slots that I felt were different from the punishing versions were the 3 fires + extra land. With two taken up by grim and pulse I decided I wanted a 5th bob effect (arena) and a loam for potential waste blowouts. So that's how I ended up where I am.

I really like Arena, it's saved me a couple times when I needed to keep up. Drawing two cards a turn is very strong in this deck. It was a really awkward Bob flip in one of my matches though. It's just a pretty grindy meta here and I like the access to extra cards.

I feel like if I do acquire Groves I would just play Aggro Loam. Don't need as many and you can find them with Knight and Loam. I'm really liking this deck at the moment.

[Whit3boy316]

Ha, to be honest I had 4 bolt and 4 decay originally but cut one bolt for grim and one decay for pulse just to diversify a bit. The slots that I felt were different from the punishing versions were the 3 fires + extra land. With two taken up by grim and pulse I decided I wanted a 5th bob effect (arena) and a loam for potential waste blowouts. So that's how I ended up where I am.

I really like Arena, it's saved me a couple times when I needed to keep up. Drawing two cards a turn is very strong in this deck. It was a really awkward Bob flip in one of my matches though. It's just a pretty grindy meta here and I like the access to extra cards.

I feel like if I do acquire Groves I would just play Aggro Loam. Don't need as many and you can find them with Knight and Loam. I'm really liking this deck at the moment.

Ive thought about doing loam. But having to get chalices and diamonds sounds painful....plus, against all the infect i play, if i dont have chalice on t1 on 1 then it doesnt do me much good

[KærvekTheMerciless]

Currently testing this:

Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Master of Cruelties

Enchantments/Planeswalkers
3 Destructive Flow
2 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast

Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate
3 Abrupt Decay

Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize

Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
3 Mountain
3 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Badlands
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard (constantly shifting)

3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Mindsparker
2 City of Solitude
2 Golgari Charm
3 Pithing Needle

Not exactly the flavor of Jund you may be used to, and certainly non-standard, but just as much joy-gasming.

Matchup analyses available, when time permits.

-KTM:cool:

[jaruri]

Been thinking about playing a little jund. Can anyone give some feedback on the list I'm thinking of right now? Thanks!

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Grim Flayer / Tarmogoyf (Has Flayer shown any potential as a replacement so far? I'm cheap so I don't want to buy Goyfs :) )
3 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Scavenging Ooze (Or a 4th Flayer/Goyf)

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate

3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sinkhole
3 Thoughtseize

3 Badlands (or 2 and a Taiga?)
2 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

[Whit3boy316]

Question. How do we beat eldrazi? Mainly the 4+ toughness guys?
Ive thought of:
1) more hand hate. Not sire what except anothe hymn though
2) terminates
3) diabolic edicts

Thoughts?

[Zulabnar]

Question. How do we beat eldrazi? Mainly the 4+ toughness guys?
Ive thought of:
1) more hand hate. Not sire what except anothe hymn though
2) terminates
3) diabolic edicts

Thoughts?

For what you listed i think that terminate is awesome because with edict you should allow them to not sacrifice what you want in graveyard. On the other hand Diabolic is good against TNN deck-

Probably a turn 2 blood moon is more efficient than any other solution, keep them without mana to cast is a good way to be safe. On the other hand you have to play basic lands and got a good speed. And if he have a Wastes you suck.

Other solution is something like damnation....

[sdematt]

I tested a bunch against Eldrazi. 1 of Loam and wasteland was good, Dismember was good as well. Ensnaring Bridge out of the side. Liliana was also quite good.

Reasonably, Eldrazi has explosive starts, but can run out of gas. If you can run Thoughtseize into Wasteland backed by a Goyf, it can be an okay time. I was playing my 3 Avalanche Riders build at the time and while slow, it was gas.

So, run a Loam, Dismember main, and a Bridge and an Edict side. Blood Moon isnt bad either ;)

[Whit3boy316]

I tested a bunch against Eldrazi. 1 of Loam and wasteland was good, Dismember was good as well. Ensnaring Bridge out of the side. Liliana was also quite good.

Reasonably, Eldrazi has explosive starts, but can run out of gas. If you can run Thoughtseize into Wasteland backed by a Goyf, it can be an okay time. I was playing my 3 Avalanche Riders build at the time and while slow, it was gas.

So, run a Loam, Dismember main, and a Bridge and an Edict side. Blood Moon isnt bad either ;)

I like this..i dont play against eldrazi often so i think i will add a dismember and bridge to the board (already have the loam) if we go bridge do we just burn them out? I run pfires fyi

[Zulabnar]

I've updated my list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scooze
2 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Avalanche Riders
15

3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Punishing Fires
3 Painful Truths
1 Life from the Loam

2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
20

1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
22
-----Sideboard-----
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Boil
1 From the Ashes
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ensnaring Bridge/Command #2



@Sdematt: Are You still stick with this list? I really cannot figure out how painful trhuts can be better than confidant. Confidant is a 2 x 1 card that if let you draw a single card has done card advantage and also can bite the opponent.

second question: which negative matchup has improved the Avalanche riders? (i'm in love with them since Urza block...and not playing since it) compared to BBE or maybe a Chandra that i think will be a sure a staple for this deck (with chandra + ensaring bridge you win against Eldrazi)

Third: 59 cards list. ^_^

[juzamjimjams]

Agree with zulabnar here, I can't really fathom playing Jund without Bob.
Whilst DRS is pretty much why the deck works - Bob is certainly one of the major reasons you'd want to play Jund over something like shardless.

[KærvekTheMerciless]

Destructive Flow can be cast turn 2 off DRS, and single handedly shuts down all BUG variants, Eldrazi, 12post, MUD, and can even put a handle on Lands. I have even had success with it against Miracles (stops them from camping fetches) and DnT, whereupon they have no access to Wasteland, Karakas, or Port.

Also, it is just better than Blood Moon, as it DENIES them mana as opposed to changing the lands to mountains.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

[hovercraft]

Been thinking about playing a little jund. Can anyone give some feedback on the list I'm thinking of right now? Thanks!

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Grim Flayer / Tarmogoyf (Has Flayer shown any potential as a replacement so far? I'm cheap so I don't want to buy Goyfs :) )
3 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Scavenging Ooze (Or a 4th Flayer/Goyf)

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate

3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sinkhole
3 Thoughtseize

3 Badlands (or 2 and a Taiga?)
2 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

I sold my Goyfs and haven't really missed them. Kinda sucks in Goyf mirror matches, but I am playing 2 Scooze, 1 Grim flayer and a Grim Lavamancer instead right now, as well as a full 4 bolts. I also think 2 Badlands and a Taiga would be fine rather than 3 badlands. I don't play a basic mountain, you might be better off with 2 swamps instead, since you have 3 Hymn, 3 Lili and 3 sinkhole that need BB. I don't have any K Command yet but will definitely be adding some soon when I get them.

[Fergun]

I've managed to get my first 4-0 in a long time at a local tournament with this deck.
I've played a pretty standard Punishing Fire list, with 3 BBE, 2 Bolts, 2 KCommands (love this card), 1 Pulse, 3 Lilis.
I've gotten tired of losing to Burn, so I've put 4 Leylines of Sanctity in my sideboard, and obviously never sided them in.
I've won against Shardless (2-1), BG Pox (2-0), Eldrazi splashing white (2-0) and Death and Taxes (2-0).

The Leylines will probably go, but is there anything I could do to improve the burn/combo matchup? Eidolon of the Great Revel as a hatebear? Maybe splash white for some real hatebears? Play Soul Spike or Spinning Darkness? Or Refreshing Rain? :)

[tescrin]

EotGR is fine, but it's tough mana restrictions to meet and requires you to alter your playstyle a tiny bit since you sap your own health with TS and DC. Given that, you'll often be behind your opponent on HP while you have no good ways to gain life back. Further, you have the issue of GotBW giving them life too. This is all a recipe for disaster unless you radically change how the deck plays (in which, it probably won't be in this thread.)

IMO, if you go to do this, you go for Tasigur/BigFish, Goyf, EotGR, drop PFire, and find other ways to increase your clock and reduce your control aspect.

TL;DR - Combo will always be meh as EotGR doesn't fit this archtype in a recognisable form. You could potentially get away with a 1-off Teeg and some GSZs, but the likely first cuts are things like Hymn and Lily, which is your other combo hate.

[Vandalize]

If you want a cheesy sideboard card against Storm and Burn, you should try Feed the Clan (works better with a Goyf in the field). I've tested that in my Junk list (well, Siege Rhinos help with that too).

[tescrin]

If you want a cheesy sideboard card against Storm and Burn, you should try Feed the Clan (works better with a Goyf in the field). I've tested that in my Junk list (well, Siege Rhinos help with that too).

I think I goofed, I thought he was asking cramming a bunch into the main. In the side I think the EotGR work reasonably IME.

On your note, why did you use feed the clan over Children of Korlis? Catch them off guard?

[Vandalize]

I think I goofed, I thought he was asking cramming a bunch into the main. In the side I think the EotGR work reasonably IME.

On your note, why did you use feed the clan over Children of Korlis? Catch them off guard?

Yeah, Children of Korlis can just eat a Bolt and you're behind again. Still, Junk has a better matchup against Burn (Siege Rhino and Stoneforge Mystic). Jund is different, Price of Progress just murders this deck.

My list, for reference:

Lands [23]
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Creatures [14]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells [23]
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Painful Truths
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard [15]
2 Slaughter Games
2 Terminate
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Plague
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Life from the Loam

[Whit3boy316]

Yeah, Children of Korlis can just eat a Bolt and you're behind again. Still, Junk has a better matchup against Burn (Siege Rhino and Stoneforge Mystic). Jund is different, Price of Progress just murders this deck.

My list, for reference:

Lands [23]
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Creatures [14]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells [23]
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Painful Truths
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard [15]
2 Slaughter Games
2 Terminate
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Plague
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Life from the Loam

How do you like 23 lands, only 8 fetches and 2 basics?

I run 24 lands, 9 fetches and 3 basics...idk how i like it. I often feel like i have to much land. I would like to drop a basic for badlands #3 but just yesterday i played against price and was like "maybe i keep the basics?"

[dredge90]

What's the advantage of playing this deck over Shardless BUG? This deck seems pretty solid vs. Miracles but is of course not super powerful vs. the the combo decks. Also, is Chains good enough to bring in against storm combo decks like ANT? What's the game plan vs. Eldrazi?

[sdematt]

Punishing Fire.

[Whit3boy316]

What's the advantage of playing this deck over Shardless BUG? This deck seems pretty solid vs. Miracles but is of course not super powerful vs. the the combo decks. Also, is Chains good enough to bring in against storm combo decks like ANT? What's the game plan vs. Eldrazi?

Punishing fire....i use to play shardless, i loved it. Still miss it to this day, but 4 decays just isnt enough for the dnt and infect meta i have...also, shardless isnt that great againt combo either 4 fow doesnt really do anything other than slow them down

[dredge90]

Is Chains good enough vs. ANT?

What's the plan vs. eldrazi? Is anyone playing Go for the Throat and/or dismember?

[juzamjimjams]

Is Chains good enough vs. ANT?

I've found there's enough in the MD that you want to take out in that match up that it comes in, even if it doesn't turn off ad naus.
Making it more difficult for them to find their pieces by weakening their cantrips is still worth the slot.

Also it's really fun explaining the card every round.


What's the plan vs. eldrazi? Is anyone playing Go for the Throat and/or dismember?

I haven't had much trouble with eldrazi, I think it just takes a bit of discipline.
Cards like chalice don't hurt our deck a huge amount, and if you hold off on removing it until you really believe it'll forward your game plan you'll find your matches improving.
Goyf is very often a 5/6, if not a 6/7 in this match up, and LOTV is very good.
Kommand has also proved to have a lot of utility in this match up, even if only recurring a blocker for an extra turn until you can stabilize.

Just my two cents, I'm more than happy to hear other experiences against the deck.

[NegatorITA]

Have been away from the deck since quite some time, what's the deck main core nowadays?
my deck used to be:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Mirri's Guile
4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows



SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Null Rod
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental


but I feel like adjustment should be made, like, punishing fire may be still a solid choice but, 3 copies or 4? was a strong advocate of the 4 of, but now with all the eldrazi, I think some bolts/dismember/edict may be needed.
Thoughts on who has experience against the deck?
Also, Sanctum prelate made necessary to have some other CC spread into the removal selection, otherwise a call on CC=2 means trouble... guess I've to snatch back bolts and cut mirri's guile for library... :7

[Neffy]

Have been away from the deck since quite some time, what's the deck main core nowadays?
my deck used to be:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Mirri's Guile
4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows



SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Null Rod
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental


but I feel like adjustment should be made, like, punishing fire may be still a solid choice but, 3 copies or 4? was a strong advocate of the 4 of, but now with all the eldrazi, I think some bolts/dismember/edict may be needed.
Thoughts on who has experience against the deck?
Also, Sanctum prelate made necessary to have some other CC spread into the removal selection, otherwise a call on CC=2 means trouble... guess I've to snatch back bolts and cut mirri's guile for library... :7

Good point on Prelate. I've been away for Jund a while, and I am considering to 2 bolt, 3 p.fire, 3 decay, 1 pulse.
I dont like 4 grove, 4 waste, 1 forest and 7 spells that cost BB. I would go 3 grove, since you are not all-in on p.fire anyway and 4 waste. Add a 9th fetch fx.

I've put 2 diabolic edict in the board. But with Eldrazi maybe we could look to Terminate, Slaughter pact and dismember. Like in modern. Have had success with 1-2 terminate once.

EDIT: and i would never leave without a sylvan.
I also will try out the new Chandra - looks like she can be our Jace TMS

[dredge90]

It's so hard to lose against noncombo matchups if you stick a library turn 2. I've been playing one, but two may be correct and can always be pitched to liliana discard growing goyf.

[sdematt]

It's so hard to lose against noncombo matchups if you stick a library turn 2. I've been playing one, but two may be correct and can always be pitched to liliana discard growing goyf.

I've been playing 2 for years and it has been the correct call.

[dredge90]

I've been playing 2 for years and it has been the correct call.

I'm glad I'm on the right track there. I've seen list with D. Demon and only 1 BBE. I've also seen some list with up to 2 K Command and some list with 0. What's everyone's experiences with these cards? I think when most people think Jund they think BBE but BBE might just be more flashy than good but I'm not sure.

[sdematt]

I'm glad I'm on the right track there. I've seen list with D. Demon and only 1 BBE. I've also seen some list with up to 2 K Command and some list with 0. What's everyone's experiences with these cards? I think when most people think Jund they think BBE but BBE might just be more flashy than good but I'm not sure.

BBE is solid and great, and it's what we are used to. I think Kommand is quite good as a 1-2 of.

[juzamjimjams]

I'm glad I'm on the right track there. I've seen list with D. Demon and only 1 BBE. I've also seen some list with up to 2 K Command and some list with 0. What's everyone's experiences with these cards? I think when most people think Jund they think BBE but BBE might just be more flashy than good but I'm not sure.

Kommand just adds a degree of flexibility that the deck historically hasn't had access to. Modal discard, recursion, artifact hate and removal on one card really takes some pressure off your draws - and the card only get's better with the standard 3 BBE.

I can't say I've run D. Demon before, though surely there are more resilient four drops the deck can offer if we're looking to shave some BBE's (Garruk relentless for example).

[sdematt]

I shaved BBE and Confidant for Painful Truths and Avalanche Riders and I really liked the build. Obviously Riders was the stone nuts against Eldrazi, but might shave it down to 2. Ill post where Im at tomorrow, but it is definitely a control build.

[Elthryn]

Long time lurker/ first time poster

Does anyone have an opinion on weather it's correct to run 23 or 24 lands? I'm currently on 24, but curious if it's worth shaving one for a second sylvan library.

Current list:

4 deathrite
4 goyf
4 Bob
3 bbe

4 liliiana
3 abrupt decay
3 pfire
3 lightning bolt
1 kcommand
4 thoughtsieze
2 hymn
1 library

[Whit3boy316]

Long time lurker/ first time poster

Does anyone have an opinion on weather it's correct to run 23 or 24 lands? I'm currently on 24, but curious if it's worth shaving one for a second sylvan library.

Current list:

4 deathrite
4 goyf
4 Bob
3 bbe

4 liliiana
3 abrupt decay
3 pfire
3 lightning bolt
1 kcommand
4 thoughtsieze
2 hymn
1 library

I run 23 lands... my debate is have 1 of each basic or 2/1 swamp/forest.

I run 0 kcommand and 1 library. Id like to move to 1 kcommand and 2 library (the card is just so good) but i have no idea what to cut...i need 4 pfire with all the infect and dnt in my meta

[Elthryn]

I'm running a 2/1 swamp/forest currently only because that's what I used to run a couple years ago. Is there some benefit to running a mountain now? I haven't played an actual game with jund in over a year so I'm curious if something has changed.

[juzamjimjams]

I'm running a 2/1 swamp/forest currently only because that's what I used to run a couple years ago. Is there some benefit to running a mountain now? I haven't played an actual game with jund in over a year so I'm curious if something has changed.

I've been on Jund 4+ years, and not in any single game have I ever wanted a basic mountain.

[zebhillard]

Long time lurker/ first time poster
Does anyone have an opinion on weather it's correct to run 23 or 24 lands? I'm currently on 24, but curious if it's worth shaving one for a second sylvan library.

I'm playing Punishing Jund and currently run 23 land with 1 Library, but I'm also running the following creatures:
4 Goyf
4 Grim Flayer
4 DRS
2 BBE
2 Bob

With lands:
3 Badlands, 2 Bayou, 3 Bloodstained Mire, 1 Forest, 4 Grove, 1 Swamp, 1 Taiga, 4 Verdant, 3 Wasteland, 1 Wooded Foothills

[dredge90]

Did more testing last night vs. miracles, stoneblade, and ANT. It seems any match up against noncombo is right where we want to be. ANT puts us in the weird position of trying to disrupt them while putting pressure on them at the same time. I think post board 6 1 mana hand disruption spells is where you want to be. Null rod is also great because it hurts them pretty bad, especially since they have started using chrome mox more. Revoker might be good here too.

[from Cairo]

Does anyone have an opinion on weather it's correct to run 23 or 24 lands? I'm currently on 24, but curious if it's worth shaving one for a second sylvan library.


I've been a fan of 24. With PFire and the CA off Bob/Library I've felt it's better to draw land heavy and support multiple plays each turn. My 60 is pretty close to yours - I run the 2nd Library with the 4th Liliana in the SB usually.

[zebhillard]

We had our Legacy monthly last Saturday and I took the following through four rounds to 3-0-1 and then an immediate 2-1 loss to Enchantress in the Top 8.


2x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Grim Flayer
4x Tarmogoyf

3x Hymn to Tourach
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Painful Truths
3x Thoughtseize

3x Abrupt Decay
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Punishing Fire
1x Tarfire

1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3x Liliana of the Veil

1x Sylvan Library

3x Badlands
2x Bayou
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Forest
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Swamp
1x Taiga
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland
1x Wooded Foothills


The sideboard was a mostly incorrect mish-mosh of cards, with only 2x Golgari Charm, 2x Engineered Plague, 1x Liliana of the Last Hope and 1x Pithing Needle being notable.

Round 1: DnT
He mulls in both games, I proceed to destroy his hand and ride Goyf and Grim Flayer to victory. One notable point was when he Vial'd in Serra Avenger to block a small Grim Flayer (only sorcery in my graveyard). I Tarfire the angel and then Wasteland his Port, Flayer lives, tramples over for 3 and triggers to dig me to more good cards.

Round 2: RG Lands
I get lucky in both games. Game 1 I'm able to keep Wasteland up to threaten his Stages if he goes for the combo and beat down with creatures while keeping his hand low. Game 2 I spend most of it with a Pithing Needle on Stage (Wastelanding his attempt to turn Stage into Forest in response). He mills a lot of potential answers with Loam recursion and I eventually win with Goyf + Deathrite after a Liliana ultimate kills his Marit Lage.

Round 3: Jund
We spend a lot of time trading punts back and forth, beginning with him fetching an incorrect land and me playing X/1's into Punishing Fire, then him blocking Goyf's with Goyf's when I have Fires recursion. Game 2 he misstacks Library and takes an extra 4 from flipping Bloodbraid off Confidant, and I win via Chandra ultimate turning 1 drops into Lava Axe's.

Round 4: ID with Maverick
We ID and go into the Top 8 as 1 and 2 seed.

Top 8: Enchantress
Game 1 he stalls the game out and has Hexproof once my Chandra ultimates, then casts Emrakul and sweeps my board. Game 2 I have all the kill spells for his important enchantments and win on a horrible slow clock with a punt after casting E Plague on Human to stop potential enchantresses, when I should have called Druid so my Confidant didn't become unplayable and Flayer shrunk. Game 3 I drew no removal for RiP and he Helm'd me in the early turns.

Going forward I'm thinking about dropping Confidant entirely and upping the Painful Truth package to x3. Bob just seems excellent for eating a removal spell and not generating any advantage, while PTruth is almost always a 3-for-1 and lets you up your curve slightly.

[sdematt]

We had our Legacy monthly last Saturday and I took the following through four rounds to 3-0-1 and then an immediate 2-1 loss to Enchantress in the Top 8.


2x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Grim Flayer
4x Tarmogoyf

3x Hymn to Tourach
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Painful Truths
3x Thoughtseize

3x Abrupt Decay
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Punishing Fire
1x Tarfire

1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3x Liliana of the Veil

1x Sylvan Library

3x Badlands
2x Bayou
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Forest
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Swamp
1x Taiga
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland
1x Wooded Foothills


The sideboard was a mostly incorrect mish-mosh of cards, with only 2x Golgari Charm, 2x Engineered Plague, 1x Liliana of the Last Hope and 1x Pithing Needle being notable.

Round 1: DnT
He mulls in both games, I proceed to destroy his hand and ride Goyf and Grim Flayer to victory. One notable point was when he Vial'd in Serra Avenger to block a small Grim Flayer (only sorcery in my graveyard). I Tarfire the angel and then Wasteland his Port, Flayer lives, tramples over for 3 and triggers to dig me to more good cards.

Round 2: RG Lands
I get lucky in both games. Game 1 I'm able to keep Wasteland up to threaten his Stages if he goes for the combo and beat down with creatures while keeping his hand low. Game 2 I spend most of it with a Pithing Needle on Stage (Wastelanding his attempt to turn Stage into Forest in response). He mills a lot of potential answers with Loam recursion and I eventually win with Goyf + Deathrite after a Liliana ultimate kills his Marit Lage.

Round 3: Jund
We spend a lot of time trading punts back and forth, beginning with him fetching an incorrect land and me playing X/1's into Punishing Fire, then him blocking Goyf's with Goyf's when I have Fires recursion. Game 2 he misstacks Library and takes an extra 4 from flipping Bloodbraid off Confidant, and I win via Chandra ultimate turning 1 drops into Lava Axe's.

Round 4: ID with Maverick
We ID and go into the Top 8 as 1 and 2 seed.

Top 8: Enchantress
Game 1 he stalls the game out and has Hexproof once my Chandra ultimates, then casts Emrakul and sweeps my board. Game 2 I have all the kill spells for his important enchantments and win on a horrible slow clock with a punt after casting E Plague on Human to stop potential enchantresses, when I should have called Druid so my Confidant didn't become unplayable and Flayer shrunk. Game 3 I drew no removal for RiP and he Helm'd me in the early turns.

Going forward I'm thinking about dropping Confidant entirely and upping the Painful Truth package to x3. Bob just seems excellent for eating a removal spell and not generating any advantage, while PTruth is almost always a 3-for-1 and lets you up your curve slightly.

That's the same conclusion I came to with Truths and Confidant.

[Claymore]

Game 1 he stalls the game out and has Hexproof once my Chandra ultimates, then casts Emrakul and sweeps my board.

This is entirely unrelated, but I gotta say, having a hexproof opponent and boardstate that would force you to Lava Axe yourself due to Chandra's emblem would be pretty funny. Interestingly enough you can kill Emrakul with the emblem if you can cast some instants.

Seeing more and more that Grim Flayer is a solid card in Legacy - both here and other BGx decks. Have there been instances where Bob ate removal that allowed Flayer to come down? I don't think it's necessarily bad to keep Bob, between discard and a huge range of targets you can overload their removal and keep either Bob or Flayer out.

[dredge90]

It seems to me that Jund is at a Y in the road and people are picking different paths, which is what makes this deck great. Some people are going down this grim flayer painful truths path. Other people are staying to the old tried and true dark confidant path. I'm not sure if you can say one is strictly better than the other, but here are my thoughts on the whole bob vs. flayer. I think the whole 'bob eats a removal spell' argument is just the same for flayer. Sure bolt may not hit flayer later in the game but if you play either one turn 2 and untap you'll be happy. I also feel like playing flayer you should be playing something to get a little value off of him besides p. fire like life from the loam maybe?

Why are we getting away from BBE? This card has been excellent for me. I honestly feel like this is the reason to play a fair deck that isn't miracles or DNT.

[NeckBird]

It seems to me that Jund is at a Y in the road and people are picking different paths, which is what makes this deck great. Some people are going down this grim flayer painful truths path. Other people are staying to the old tried and true dark confidant path. I'm not sure if you can say one is strictly better than the other, but here are my thoughts on the whole bob vs. flayer. I think the whole 'bob eats a removal spell' argument is just the same for flayer. Sure bolt may not hit flayer later in the game but if you play either one turn 2 and untap you'll be happy. I also feel like playing flayer you should be playing something to get a little value off of him besides p. fire like life from the loam maybe?

Why are we getting away from BBE? This card has been excellent for me. I honestly feel like this is the reason to play a fair deck that isn't miracles or DNT.

Bloodbraid is still sweet, but Chandra, Torch of Defiance may be even better.

[juzamjimjams]

Bloodbraid is still sweet, but Chandra, Torch of Defiance may be even better.

Do you mind providing some insight as to what match ups Chandra really shines in?

I've found that BBE (in fair matchups), is great when ahead, at parity and can really bring you back in the game when behind.
I can't really see what Chandra does when behind, other than acting as a 4 mana removal spell - having said that I have not yet tested the card so I'd love to hear your reasoning.

[zebhillard]

This is entirely unrelated, but I gotta say, having a hexproof opponent and boardstate that would force you to Lava Axe yourself due to Chandra's emblem would be pretty funny. Interestingly enough you can kill Emrakul with the emblem if you can cast some instants.

Seeing more and more that Grim Flayer is a solid card in Legacy - both here and other BGx decks. Have there been instances where Bob ate removal that allowed Flayer to come down? I don't think it's necessarily bad to keep Bob, between discard and a huge range of targets you can overload their removal and keep either Bob or Flayer out.

Yeah, her emblem not having a 'may' clause could have boned me that game, but Emmy first attack left me with an empty battlefield anyway.

As for question two, I don't think so? Deathrite is still primo-must-be-removed-target-numero-one, so a lot of early kill spells go his way. I still think, at the time, 3 life for 3 cards is the better (more reliable) way to go if it comes to mid-game and topdecks.

[HardBrain]

Hi, i play jund in modern and i consider to invest in Legacy. For now i Have 15 tears exp in mtg and i played some Legacy. I had exp wir nic fit, each delver, ant, dredge and eldrazi. I want Ask you: it is food to invest to jund in Legacy or THIS is closer to fun deck? I dont want to spend over 1500$ just for local Games.

[zebhillard]

Hi, i play jund in modern and i consider to invest in Legacy. For now i Have 15 tears exp in mtg and i played some Legacy. I had exp wir nic fit, each delver, ant, dredge and eldrazi. I want Ask you: it is food to invest to jund in Legacy or THIS is closer to fun deck? I dont want to spend over 1500$ just for local Games.

You can always end up with a fighting chance, though I suggest shopping around. If you have all of Modetn Jund you should be able to finish out Legacy for under a grand (6 duals, Groves, Wastelands) unless you want Chains for the board.

[HardBrain]

You can always end up with a fighting chance, though I suggest shopping around. If you have all of Modetn Jund you should be able to finish out Legacy for under a grand (6 duals, Groves, Wastelands) unless you want Chains for the board.

But the main point of question is. THIS deck do anthing in meta ir it is only +1 on player list

[HardBrain]

But the main point of question is. THIS deck do anthing in meta ir it is only +1 on player list

The main problem is THIS forum dead time. I need wait for response so long and nithing ;-( Thats not a good signal

[artificertxj]

The main problem is THIS forum dead time. I need wait for response so long and nithing ;-( Thats not a good signal
There are lots of discussions about different match-ups in previous pages. The strength of the deck depends on the meta. The source is still the most active legacy forum.

[Anarky87]

I'm not quite sure what your original question was, but I understood it as, " Should I invest in Jund and will it be a good investment in terms of competitiveness?"

I believe the answer to both of those questions is a yes. Especially if you're already running the deck in Modern. I've been running the deck over the past year and have not failed to make T8 in any of the tournaments I've played in (all were 25+ people or more). I have game against most decks out there and rarely feel hopeless against anything because the deck has the tools.

I've been taking a break from the deck to play BUG Aluren for the time being, but I think Jund is a fine choice to break into legacy. Plus it kinda branches you towards other decks like Shardless if that's your cup of tea.

[tescrin]

The main problem is THIS forum dead time. I need wait for response so long and nithing ;-( Thats not a good signal

Not to be a dick, but it's also in part your grammar, and it's not a very interesting question.
Yes, jund will have less talk going for it, like Maverick and others. It'll get rehashed a little bit when interesting creatures get printed, or interesting discard; but honestly that's about it. It's a well defined deck that has a well defined purpose.

It's generally weak to Combo because it's all sorcery speed interaction and is insta-gibbed by Leyline of Sanctity if they run it. It's generally mediocre against Miracles, but not terrible. It eats Delver Decks and competes with the other BGx mid-range decks; who will each say theirs is the best.

Personally, I quite enjoyed my time playing Junk/DGA/Maverick/Aggro-Loam decks. Eventually it wore on me though and I wanted the consistency. You get really tired of losing to mulligans or topdecked lands.

[HardBrain]

Not to be a dick, but it's also in part your grammar, and it's not a very interesting question.
Yes, jund will have less talk going for it, like Maverick and others. It'll get rehashed a little bit when interesting creatures get printed, or interesting discard; but honestly that's about it. It's a well defined deck that has a well defined purpose.

It's generally weak to Combo because it's all sorcery speed interaction and is insta-gibbed by Leyline of Sanctity if they run it. It's generally mediocre against Miracles, but not terrible. It eats Delver Decks and competes with the other BGx mid-range decks; who will each say theirs is the best.

Personally, I quite enjoyed my time playing Junk/DGA/Maverick/Aggro-Loam decks. Eventually it wore on me though and I wanted the consistency. You get really tired of losing to mulligans or topdecked lands.
thanks for all posts.
firstly, sorry for my grammar. English is not my native lenguage so i try as best to write enough good to be understand.
Secondly, i already bought dual lands, wastelands, shamans, Htt so i have almost all.
and for the end of my post: anyone can give me any tip and trick about decklist because i saw only normal same list as few months ago no changes. One card is Chandra which in test was good. i consider to play BBE or PTruths in main.
The most problem is to set sideboard. its good to pick Black leyline over Surgical?

[sdematt]

Surgical is really flexible.

[dredge90]

Has anyone tried red eidolon in the board for storm hate? Card seems really good against them.

[Seraphix]

Has anyone tried red eidolon in the board for storm hate? Card seems really good against them.

I haven't tried Eidolon but it's worth a shot. The downside is that RR can be a bit awkward on the manabase. Pyrostatic Pillar, Thorn of Amethyst, and Trinisphere are analagous cards that are easier to cast. The 2/2 body is relevant though.

[NegatorITA]

tryed my own list at our local weekly league
Went 2-2

Lost vs Miracle,
g1 I probably misplayed a couple of plays looking back (I could kill its jace earlier I think responding to an activation with my fires), sad story short: Never saw a decay till like turn 20+, nor elves, and a lonely Goyf I think, I saw all the fires of the decks, he wons through angels.

G2 Don't recall the exact order, but at one point I get to see his hand with a surgical on something I think, I have wasteland and double badlands in play, short on green, see a ruination in his hand, so I cast needle naming its on-hand jace, waste its red, he is left with no fetch, no ponder, no bs, no red sources, no top, of course he draw a fetch for volcanic and ruination ashames me.

Win vs 4 Delver
THought it was team america at first, since I get hymned, my removal get its threat g1 (few) and goyf does a short work. Same on g2 which goes a little longer, but I see at least two decay one edict, liliana, reb, and all the removals I've got with mana support.

Win vs Shardless
G1 I get going with double fires, he sees only one or none decay, while I see reasonably good cards, punishing does short works of its deathrite while I see three of my ones... (which though die all togheter by a deluge... shame on me for not remembering they may run these maindeck)
Still, p.fires and Sylvan Library bring it at home.

G2 we exchanges blows but I resolve a Chains of Mephistopele, while he has vision suspended and had just cast Sylvan Library, he menages to find a golgari to swept my chains the turn before his ancestral resolves, pass me the turn and I draw bloodbrain, cast it, and he says: "I'm gonna swear if you flip chains", I reply, "well, seems... possible?" while I flip lands Chains... which ultimately win me the game.

Loss Vs Belcher
He usually plays ant, instead he has belcher, sadly he starts and win. gg
G2 I start and say: Needle on berlcher, he stormes me on goblins, I untap and drop golgari, almost gg, I had a couple of discard and thought, well, better throw them anyway, which infact were crucial because he could have diminishing returned the storm count up again.
g3 he starts again so, I'm all about the luck, which, he has, he storms goes for diminishing, storm again, and put 24 goblins on the board, sadly, I can't do much and I lose.

Not too bad though, miracle was kinda unliky, belcher is like a very unexistent deck, and I like the side.

here the decklist I had.

4 deathrite
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
3 bloodbraid

4 punishing
4 abrupt decay
2 lightning bolt
1 kolaghan's command


4 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek

3 liliana of the veil
1 sylvan library

1 life from the loam

4 groves
4 wasteland
4 verdant
3 bloodstained
1 wooded f.
1 swamp
1 forest
3 badlands
2 bayou

Side:
2 reb
2 pithing needle
2 graftdigger cage
2 surgical extraction
2 diabolic edict
2 chains of mephistofele
1 choke
2 golgari charm

oddly I never draw the kolaghan, and only once the loam,
I'm getting more and more convinced by my idea that in non blue deck singleton must have huge impact and in multiple matchup to be worthy of running, I've cut the loam and put back a 4th liliana.
Kolaghan could be either a mirri's guile or sensei's top or a maelstrom pulse, but it's still a nice card and the "seven discard spell"
Loam could also replace choke in the board, but I prefer the latter since eldrazi and lands are less popular here than all the blue decks.

[Asthereal]

oddly I never draw the kolaghan, and only once the loam,
I'm getting more and more convinced by my idea that in non blue deck singleton must have huge impact and in multiple matchup to be worthy of running, I've cut the loam and put back a 4th liliana.
Kolaghan could be either a mirri's guile or sensei's top or a maelstrom pulse, but it's still a nice card and the "seven discard spell"
Loam could also replace choke in the board, but I prefer the latter since eldrazi and lands are less popular here than all the blue decks.
Why cut the Kolaghan's Command if you never drew it?
You have no way of knowing whether it's any good or not.

If you do decide to cut the Command, there's more than just the cards you mention to replace it with:
- 24th land (makes going nuts with Punishing Fire easier)
- Terminate (good against any midrange deck)
- Lightning Bolt (flexible)
- Hymn/Inquisition/Duress (good against combo)
- Sylvan Library (good against Miracles/Shardless)
- Garruk Relentless/Arlinn Kord/Chandra, ToD/Bloodbraid Elf (good against blue)

About your choices:
Running Top makes Peedle on Top worse.
Mirri's Guile doesn't actually do anything when you cast it, AND it's card disadvantage.
Maelstrom Pulse can be good, but it's just as slow and just as one-of-ish as the Command.

All things considered, I'd advise keeping the Command for testing, but if you swap it, go for Sylvan Library.

[maharis]

I took a look at the top 8s from Chiba, Baltimore, both Eternal Weekends, and Eternal Extravaganza. 40 total decks, 16 archetypes. 12 Miracles, 6 D&T, 5 Delver (4-color or Grixis). No other deck had more than 3 appearances. In this kind of meta, I can't think of a good reason not to play Jund. It just seems like having access to Decay AND other efficient (read: red) removal is super good. I've played BUG control variants, and while I think they can go toe-to-toe with Miracles in grindy matchups, they can stumble against fast draws from decks like D&T and Delver.

I'm thinking I'll start here:

4 DRS
4 Bob
4 Goyf
3 BBE

4 Liliana OTV
4 Bolt
4 Decay
3 Hymn
3 Thoughtseize
2 K-Command
2 Library
1 Pulse

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant
4 Mire
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Taiga

I do own groves so not playing the PF package is by choice. I think K-command has more utility and I'm not worried about being short on removal against creature decks... I also think Miracles isn't quite as susceptible to PF since Mentor can go way around it and they know how to keep a 2 on top to fight it. And the consistency in the manabase is great.

The big question I'm actually grappling with is the discard package. I have thought about playing Oath of Nissa over Thoughtseize just for a touch of added consistency so as not to get buried by bad draws. (Also, multiples kill each other, putting an enchantment in the GY for Tarmogoyf)

I've also thought about Sinkhole over Hymn as it's probably as good against Miracles and Eldrazi. Also considered GSZ packages, Loam, Crucible, Phyrexian Arena, etc. But for right now I'll start here and see if anything's really missing against the top 5 matchups I expect: Miracles, D&T, Eldrazi, Delver, and big-creature combo like Reanimator and Show & Tell.

For the sideboard, I think Surgical Extraction is at a high right now with the turn 1 reanimator deck and Loam strategies. But I've also considered Faerie Macabre because it works through a Chancellor and at instant speed. I'm not sure if GY clearing is that important right now; would lean on those kinds of cards & Deathrite to pick apart Dredge if it pops up.

I also think I'll just jam some Thorns for anti-combo but I have to pick them up to test.

[Seraphix]

I took a look at the top 8s from Chiba, Baltimore, both Eternal Weekends, and Eternal Extravaganza. 40 total decks, 16 archetypes. 12 Miracles, 6 D&T, 5 Delver (4-color or Grixis). No other deck had more than 3 appearances. In this kind of meta, I can't think of a good reason not to play Jund. It just seems like having access to Decay AND other efficient (read: red) removal is super good. I've played BUG control variants, and while I think they can go toe-to-toe with Miracles in grindy matchups, they can stumble against fast draws from decks like D&T and Delver.

I'm thinking I'll start here:

4 DRS
4 Bob
4 Goyf
3 BBE

4 Liliana OTV
4 Bolt
4 Decay
3 Hymn
3 Thoughtseize
2 K-Command
2 Library
1 Pulse

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant
4 Mire
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Taiga

I do own groves so not playing the PF package is by choice. I think K-command has more utility and I'm not worried about being short on removal against creature decks... I also think Miracles isn't quite as susceptible to PF since Mentor can go way around it and they know how to keep a 2 on top to fight it. And the consistency in the manabase is great.

The big question I'm actually grappling with is the discard package. I have thought about playing Oath of Nissa over Thoughtseize just for a touch of added consistency so as not to get buried by bad draws. (Also, multiples kill each other, putting an enchantment in the GY for Tarmogoyf)

I've also thought about Sinkhole over Hymn as it's probably as good against Miracles and Eldrazi. Also considered GSZ packages, Loam, Crucible, Phyrexian Arena, etc. But for right now I'll start here and see if anything's really missing against the top 5 matchups I expect: Miracles, D&T, Eldrazi, Delver, and big-creature combo like Reanimator and Show & Tell.

For the sideboard, I think Surgical Extraction is at a high right now with the turn 1 reanimator deck and Loam strategies. But I've also considered Faerie Macabre because it works through a Chancellor and at instant speed. I'm not sure if GY clearing is that important right now; would lean on those kinds of cards & Deathrite to pick apart Dredge if it pops up.

I also think I'll just jam some Thorns for anti-combo but I have to pick them up to test.

Jund is perennially well positioned but usually suffers from a lack of dedicated pilots. Like you say, there are many favored matchups at the top of the meta right now. However, Lands, Eldrazi, Br Reanimator, and Show & Tell decks are out in force right now as well, so I think tuning the deck should focus on beating these matchups.

Dropping P-Fire is something I can get behind right now as it opens up the possibility of playing Blood Moon SB. With a mix of Bolt, Decay, and Kommand you're still well positioned against creature decks (and Prelate on 2 in particular). D-Edict could be worth considering out of the board as well to combat all the fatty decks.

Oath of Nissa is interesting and may have merit, but not a t the cost of cutting maindeck discard IMO, which you need a critical mass of to handle combo.

[NegatorITA]

Why cut the Kolaghan's Command if you never drew it?
You have no way of knowing whether it's any good or not.

If you do decide to cut the Command, there's more than just the cards you mention to replace it with:
- 24th land (makes going nuts with Punishing Fire easier)
- Terminate (good against any midrange deck)
- Lightning Bolt (flexible)
- Hymn/Inquisition/Duress (good against combo)
- Sylvan Library (good against Miracles/Shardless)
- Garruk Relentless/Arlinn Kord/Chandra, ToD/Bloodbraid Elf (good against blue)

About your choices:
Running Top makes Peedle on Top worse.
Mirri's Guile doesn't actually do anything when you cast it, AND it's card disadvantage.
Maelstrom Pulse can be good, but it's just as slow and just as one-of-ish as the Command.

All things considered, I'd advise keeping the Command for testing, but if you swap it, go for Sylvan Library.

I agree on all but mirri's guile, I used it for two years without regrets, stacking with Bob and not intercating with Chains are very nice things, it also a one drop, which can make the deck smooth against unknown decks from turn 2, I know I'm one of the few to have this Idea, but it was never bad.

[juzamjimjams]

Oath of Nissa is interesting and may have merit, but not a t the cost of cutting maindeck discard IMO, which you need a critical mass of to handle combo.

I couldn't agree more, Oath seems interesting but certainly does not fit the same slot as TS or Hymn.

[RobNC]

I saw a Jund list a few weeks ago, I believe highlighted on MTG Goldfish, that had a lot of basics and some card (enchantment?) where a high basics count benefit the player. I'm having a really hard time trying to dig it up because I can't remember what the name of the card was. Can anyone help me out finding it?

[H]

I saw a Jund list a few weeks ago, I believe highlighted on MTG Goldfish, that had a lot of basics and some card (enchantment?) where a high basics count benefit the player. I'm having a really hard time trying to dig it up because I can't remember what the name of the card was. Can anyone help me out finding it?

Not sure the exact list you saw, it was probably one with Destructive Flow.

[Claymore]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31087-Jund-Flow-or-like-I-would-call-it-NO-Flow

[RobNC]

Yes, I believe that card was it! Thank you!

[meite]

Tested one MB Collective Brutality today, it was a huge bomb against infect! Has anyone else tried it?

I have been playing modern Jund with Grim Flayers lately, maybe need to try them also in legacy, they could work nicely with PFires..

[zebhillard]

Tested one MB Collective Brutality today, it was a huge bomb against infect! Has anyone else tried it?

I have been playing modern Jund with Grim Flayers lately, maybe need to try them also in legacy, they could work nicely with PFires..

They do, some of us have moved on to Flayer builds without BBE and running Painful Truths instead.

[sdematt]

4 DRS
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Flayer
2 Grim Lavamancer
14

3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn To Tourach
3 Painful Truths
2 Sylvan Library
11

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil
13

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Urborg, ToY
1 Swamp
1 Forest
23

//

2 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Choke
1 Boil
1 From the Ashes
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
1 Pyroblast
1 Terminate

[artificertxj]

4 DRS
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Flayer
2 Grim Lavamancer
14

3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn To Tourach
3 Painful Truths
2 Sylvan Library
11

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil
13

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Urborg, ToY
1 Swamp
1 Forest
23

//

2 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Choke
1 Boil
1 From the Ashes
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
1 Pyroblast
1 Terminate

///
By the first view, I like this list more than the standard list. Can you talk briefly about different match ups?
If we want to take the beatdown path, should we keep 3 hymn, or change to sinkhole or inquisition?

[sdematt]

Yeah, my thought process from previous testing was that I was trying cutting DC and BBE for Avalanche Riders, Tombstalker, and Scavenging Ooze. But, it was good, but super clunky and Riders was quite slow. I'd definitely play the shit out of Riders at 1RR, just saying.

Having Loam maindeck is a nice plus since Wastelocking Eldrazi early is a real gameplan, and getting back Groves for setting up the long game against many other decks is great as well.

Grim Lavamancer is there because Flayer/Liliana are going to be dumping cards into the yard, so might as well use them. Lavamancer is game breaking against Tarmogoyf standoffs, Delvers, and opposing Shamans, and I love the guy.

Nice mix of removal; I'd love to max out Fires and Decay, but no room.

Sideboard is a mish-mash to handle the top tiers. Ideally we roll Delver over, but should we lose Game 1, bringing in Terminate, Pyroblast, Charm, and Deluge are pretty spicy. To help against Eldrazi, bring in the Terminate, From the Ashes, Toxic, and maybe Garruk. Probably not quite enough, but Wasteland is a card. Miracles we can bring in Needles, Rod, Choke, Boil, Garruk, and Games. Death and Taxes and Elves can be handled similarly with Terminate, Charm, Deluge.



As for Sinkholes, I would love to play it, but I'm not sure it's enough in the matchups we want it; I think Hymn is very solid as is. IoK is fine and I definitely used to run it, but I think we want our value where we can, and against decks like Miracles and Eldrazi and Storm, I'd rather have the two cards most of the time.

-Matt

[Whit3boy316]

Does anyone run dread of night for the entire matchup? I feel like the card is super narrow but a hour against don't which I struggle with in my meta...it's everywhere

[sdematt]

Or pyroclasm for some flexibility?

[dredge90]

Or pyroclasm for some flexibility?

I don't like pyroclasm because they are more than likely putting prelate on 2. Probably Kozilek Return, Toxic Deluge, and/or Volcanic fall out would be better.

I played a small 14 person GPT yesterday with 2 library main, 2 k-command main, 3 lotv, no flayer.

Wins
U/R Delver
Lands
Miracles

Loss
Grixis Delver (I'm not one for excuses but he did have the nuts game 1 and 3 with y.p plus 3 daze and then 3 wastelands)

Top 4
Loss to Infect. Does anybody have thoughts on the Infect matchup? I main phase wasteland inkmoth and he had vines for it and untapped into invigorate beserk (both games more or less).

[sdematt]

Sudden Shock.

[artificertxj]

I don't like pyroclasm because they are more than likely putting prelate on 2. Probably Kozilek Return, Toxic Deluge, and/or Volcanic fall out would be better.

I played a small 14 person GPT yesterday with 2 library main, 2 k-command main, 3 lotv, no flayer.

Wins
U/R Delver
Lands
Miracles

Loss
Grixis Delver (I'm not one for excuses but he did have the nuts game 1 and 3 with y.p plus 3 daze and then 3 wastelands)

Top 4
Loss to Infect. Does anybody have thoughts on the Infect matchup? I main phase wasteland inkmoth and he had vines for it and untapped into invigorate beserk (both games more or less).

One little thing, whenever you want to wasteland them or remove their creatures, do it in your turn. They have to use vines. Sudden shock and forked bolt are good cards against infect. Anyway, you can still lose to a crop rotation into an inkmoth.

[juzamjimjams]

It's mostly been said, but on your own turn is definitely the time to be disrupting them.
That said, it's not an easy match up as they can protect their infect creatures on VERY few resources.
It's probably obvious that abrupt decay is not fantastic in the match up, but if you do manage to kill their first infect creature, the infect deck is very soft to the wasteland lock.

Though sometimes they'll have daze and force backup and kill you on turn 2.

[Whit3boy316]

Or pyroclasm for some flexibility?

The reason I like dread of night is that if it lands it's a complete blowout. Most people know to over extend vs jund when side boards are done

[Whit3boy316]

Has anyone tried blood moon for eldrazi and sneak and show?

[dredge90]

One little thing, whenever you want to wasteland them or remove their creatures, do it in your turn. They have to use vines. Sudden shock and forked bolt are good cards against infect. Anyway, you can still lose to a crop rotation into an inkmoth.

Oh, yeah I'm well aware of interacting with infect either at the end of their turn or during our main phase. I just think it's going to be a bad match up unless we play super narrow cards like sudden shock.

[Seraphix]

Has anyone tried blood moon for eldrazi and sneak and show?

I don't know why you would want Blood Moon against Sneak & Show, a deck that almost always packs Blood Moon in its own sideboard.

I've played a Jund list with Blood Moon a bit recently, but only cast it once against Lands where it was pretty good. I think it's a well positioned card right now.

[Whit3boy316]

I don't know why you would want Blood Moon against Sneak & Show, a deck that almost always packs Blood Moon in its own sideboard.

I've played a Jund list with Blood Moon a bit recently, but only cast it once against Lands where it was pretty good. I think it's a well positioned card right now.

Ya I wasn't thinking. But eldrazi, lands, maybe even infect seem decent

[maharis]

I played a small tournament the other day:

4 DRS
4 Bob
4 Goyf
3 BBE

4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sylvan Library
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Life from the Loam

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Forest

2 Duress
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pyroblast
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Dismember
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague
1 Marsh Casualties

1-2 White Eldrazi, Leonin Arbiter is a beating
2-0 Grixis Painter, lots of artifact removal maindeck
2-1 Junk Stoneblade, hardcast Macabre got there in game 3


Does anyone run dread of night for the entire matchup? I feel like the card is super narrow but a hour against don't which I struggle with in my meta...it's everywhere

Yes. I like Dread because it also stops the Mentor plan out of Miracles and sometimes you randomly play against Lingering Souls.


Sudden Shock.

I would rather have Sudden Shock than Punishing Fire in this meta, to be honest. There just aren't enough matchups where PF/grove is effective. I think K-Command does a lot of what you what PF/Grove to do (2-for-1 Shardless + Stoneblade decks). I can't find room for it but in a world with Mom, DRS, SFM, Mentor and infect (even elves to an extent) Sudden Shock seems really good.


I don't know why you would want Blood Moon against Sneak & Show, a deck that almost always packs Blood Moon in its own sideboard.

I've played a Jund list with Blood Moon a bit recently, but only cast it once against Lands where it was pretty good. I think it's a well positioned card right now.

Ever since I saw that Destructive Flow deck I've been tinkering in my head with a deck that plays lots of basics, Traverse the Ulvenwald, and land-hate enchantments. Not sure such a deck is better than just junding them out the traditional way though.

[Ish]

I saw a Jund list a few weeks ago, I believe highlighted on MTG Goldfish, that had a lot of basics and some card (enchantment?) where a high basics count benefit the player. I'm having a really hard time trying to dig it up because I can't remember what the name of the card was. Can anyone help me out finding it?

Destructive Flow... It's cute but not very consistant. Also more of a Nic Fit deck... Not Jund


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[aluisiocsantos]

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21659&iddeck=166351

Not wanting to sound rude but, it seems Jund is good again?

There's a big legacy tournament by the end of the month, been wanting to play Aggro Loam currently, since it's my strongest suit, but I miss this overpowering titan that is Jund - playing huge menaces and exercizing some good old denial plan. Can Jund beat Shardless now?
Taking a look at the tcdecks link it somewhat sounds that the meta was favourable to that Jund since top 8 had even Merfolk and little combo decks. Is combo still Jund's only flawed matchup?

[HateKnuckle]

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21659&iddeck=166351

Is combo still Jund's only flawed matchup?

Well Burn isn't great either but yeah combo is rough shit. That's why I was really apprehensive about playing it at Louisville without 2x Chains of Mephistopheles in the MD. So I figured I'd go for the next best thing and play Shardless with Chains on a Stick aka Leovold.

Didn't pan out too well as I didn't see any combo other than 2xTurbo Depths but they're easily taken care of by Jund anyway.

[Claymore]

I played Jund in a challenge at the GP. It seems fine right now, considering all the matchups I faced that weekend. Beat by god openings 1-2 against Turbo Blood Moon Chandra, 2-0 Infect, effectively 2-1 slivers (went to time but had Liliana, Goyf, Fires against an empty board), 2-1 Shardless. The high amount of Surgicals in the meta seems to be a drawback against the Fires, but if you can hold onto them then you can reasonably grind out most any Delver deck. I imagine even Leovold wouldn't help against a board of Liliana and Punishing Fires with AD to remove Goyfs.

Most blistering combo like Storm has been pushed out, leaving a bunch of fair Delver decks, fragile combo (Reanimator, Turbo Depths), DnT, and Miracles - most of which Punishing Fires and Liliana can do work against.

[NegatorITA]

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

2 Sylvan Library

4 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Bayou
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

SB: 2 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 2 Pithing Needle



has anyone got the idea of trying a different approach?
A more lean, less land-filled more value on low CC cards which means:
Fatal push over Bolt - Because Bolt doesn't kill goyf and decay may catch something else.
Lavamancer over BBE - Because D&T is still a thing and BBE is often slow.
full set of tourach & double library: because CA is what makes jund viable in the first place, without fires, we want to smack their hand and refill ours asap
4 basics e 4 wastelands - because now we can run them.
Kolaghan: because it's awesome, maybe a split with pulse for catching planswealkers in a better way G1


Thoughts?

[timtohourach]

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

2 Sylvan Library

4 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Bayou
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

SB: 2 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 2 Pithing Needle



has anyone got the idea of trying a different approach?
A more lean, less land-filled more value on low CC cards which means:
Fatal push over Bolt - Because Bolt doesn't kill goyf and decay may catch something else.
Lavamancer over BBE - Because D&T is still a thing and BBE is often slow.
full set of tourach & double library: because CA is what makes jund viable in the first place, without fires, we want to smack their hand and refill ours asap
4 basics e 4 wastelands - because now we can run them.
Kolaghan: because it's awesome, maybe a split with pulse for catching planswealkers in a better way G1


Thoughts?

I agree and have been theory crafting a similar approach too. Losing the Pyroblast post board is the biggest worry I have but I found the groves to be more of a pain half the time and have been siding out the burn spells in most matches.
The gatekeepers are a meta call suggested by a friend of mine against all the leovold decks. Having 5 MD answers to a TNN feels good.
The new lili + stronghold is my attempt to replace k command.

4 DRS
4 Bob
4 Goyf
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir

4 Seize
4 Hymm
4 Decay
4 Push
1 M Pulse

3 LoTV
1 Lili, last hope
2 Library
1 Chains of Meph

4 V cats
2 Misty R
2 P Delta
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Volraths Stronghold

[jeffieog]

This is my decklist I ran on Sunday, March 26th (2 weeks ago) in a 17 person tourney that had 5 rounds and then a cut to top 8. I transitioned from Modern Jund after the dry spell when the deck was less well positioned after the DRS ban and have been playing Legacy Punishing Jund for over 2 years. I've stuck to the legacy rule of playing what you love and know. This my first time writing up a tournament report so please don't be too harsh on me, thank you!

Can provide list of decks in tournament on request. Cross posted this because I wanted to hear the source's thought on what to side board for specific matchups as that is the one thing I'm still shaky on.

My Decklist:
Land (23)
3x Badlands
2x Bayou
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Forest
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland
2x Wooded Foothills

Creature (14)
2x Bloodbraid Elf
4x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf

Instant (9)
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Fatal Push
1x Lightning Bolt
3x Punishing Fire

Sorcery (8)
3x Hymn to Tourach
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Thoughtseize

Planeswalker (5)
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4x Liliana of the Veil

Enchantment (1)
1x Sylvan Library


Sideboard (15)

1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Choke
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Duress
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Golgari Charm
1x Null Rod
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Umezawa's Jitte


Round 1: vs Lino (Goblins with no Ports)

Game 1: I win the dice roll and I notice he has a deck box labeled "GOBLINS". I almost get hit by the "no mixup" mixup and have mull to 5 due to me having 1 land or 0 land hands. My hand is 2xland/2xDRS/BBE and I keep knowing that the shaman is a house against Goblin Lackey. I proceed to draw mono deathrites and lands and I die.

Game 2: I side out 4 Lilianas of the Veil and a Wasteland in favor for Pernicious Deed, Toxic Deluge, Umezawa's Jitte, Golgari Charm, and Garruk Relentless. My opponent doesn't open with T1 lackey and I proceed to kill his early threats while landing an early goyf and bash until he dies.

Game 3: I keep a hand of bolt/deathrite/landx3/hymn/bbe and my opponent plays T1 lackey. I made the choice of killing lackey instead of relying on my opponent not having a T2 kill spell for DRS. There are several Goblin players in the Bay Area and one of them I know plays Pyrokinesis as a way to clear the way to hit on T2 with a Lackey so I'm super apprehensive of that. My opponent then plays T2 lackey and I stonewall his lackey with my DRS on my T2. Since my opponent didn't kill my DRS on his turn 3, I assumed he had no removal and chose to cast my BBE which very luckily cascaded into a tarmogoyf and I then attacked with BBE. From then on, I just kept on attacking with the BBE while leaving goyf on defense and DRS to gain life to win G3.

Match Win: 2-1
Overall Record: 1-0


Round 2: vs Brett (BUG Delver)

Game 1: I keep a good hand with a healthy mixture of lands, removal, threats, and discard against an unknown opponent. My opponent is on the play and I believe he mulligans twice. He ponders T1 while I T1 fetch swamp, thoughtseize and took away Leovold/TNN (I can't remember which blue 3 drop it was, I just remember to take on sight) leaving behind land/Brainstorm/DRS/and Wasteland. I now know to play around wasteland and my opponent plays a T2 DRS and I kill it on my T2. My opponent durdles for his T3 by brainstorming and I proceed to play a Bob on T3. My opponent stumbles for a bit on T4 by not being able to kill the confidant until T5. On my T5, I draw land to play BBE and drown him in a cascade of value.

Game 2: I side out 4 thoughtseizes, 1 hymn, 1 Lili, and 2 BBE for Choke, Chains of Mephistopheles, REB, Pyroblast, Deed, Deluge, Jitte, and Garruk. From what I remember, my opponent plays a T1 Delver, and dazes my T1 play. His delver doesn't flip for 4 turns and dazes my turn 2 play again and kills my turn 3 creature. He eventually plays another delver and a goyf and I get swarmed.

Game 3: We had 8 minutes to play game 3 and my brain just went on Jund autopilot mode (get 2 for 1's and topdeck well) and this game ended up being the definition of a midrange Jund fest. He has threat I kill it immediately. I hymn him, he hymns me. I eek out some card advantage through an unanswered Sylvan Library, a early Bob, and a Liliana. Looking back at this game, I realize I got very fortunate when my opponent drew 2 Jaces and each time I killed the both with a REB/Pyroblast. I rode on my card advantage and top decked to victory.

Match Win: 2-1
Overall Record: 2-0


Round 3: vs Carey (my friend, who paid for my entrance fee that I know is on GB Turbo Depths [the all in version]) (X-2 is the win & in)

Game 1: I know this is a terrible matchup and I keep a fairly reasonable hand on the play with land/thoughtseize/hymn/pfire/creatures. I T1 Thoughtseize and take Duress, leaving his hand with Elvish Spirit Guide/Bayou/Dark Depths/Thespian Stage/Blooming Marsh. He then plays T1 Library with a ESG and Bayou and I proceed to perfectly noscope360 his hand with hymn grabbing his depths and stage. Much salt was had lol. However, my friend rng'ed me back by looking at 3 cards via library, grabbing a dark depths. On my T3, I killed his library and on my friend's T3, he fetches and draws into Vampir Hexmage, killing me soon with a Marit Lage afterwards.

Game 2: I side out 2 Bloodbraid Elves, 1 Chandra, 1 Push, 1 Bolt, and for 2 Surgical Extractions, 1 Duress, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Diabolic Edict. I keep a hand after a mulligan of 1 Land/DRS/Duress/-rest doesn't matter. I chose to T1 duress instead of DRS thinking he could T2 me or T1 discard my duress and get me afterwards. Unfortunately I got stuck on one land after that and died swiftly to 3 Vampire Hexmages.

Match Loss: 0-2
Overall Record: 2-1


Round 4: vs Mike (DnT)

Round 1: I know that my opponent is on DnT and I chose to keep a hand after a mulligan of Bob/thoughtseize and hymn/3 Lands/1 pfire, knowing that this is a favorable matchup. My opponent is on the draw and I T1 thoughtseize a Mother of Runes out of his hand and T2 Hymn him, leaving him with Recruiter of the Guard/Rishadan Port/Thalia, Guardian of Thraben/Swords to Plowshares. He plays T2 Thalia and I play T3 Bob which he plows the turn afterwards. I didn't draw any other threat for the rest of the game and my opponent grabs a Sanctum Prelate with recruiter and names 2 shutting off most of my removal and I die to Thalia and friends.

Game 2: I side out 2 BBE, 4 Lili, and 1 Wasteland for 1 Deluge, Golgari Charm, Deed, Jitte, Null Rod, Needle, and Garruk Relentless. I get an uncontested bob with a jitte attached to it to connect along with my punishing fire engine going and the game was over from there.

Game 3: I mulliganed to 5 kept a hand of 2 lands/Thoughtseize/Grove+Pfire, which could be worse and I was not going to complain. At the start my opponent T1 vialed and I T1 thoughtseized him, seeing Wisp/Plains/Wasteland/Port/and Thalia and in the end I took the Thalia (but I'm not sure if that was correct). I draw a DRS and I get the punishing fire engine going so things are looking good. At some point he has a Serra Avenger + Batterskull&Germ in play, and I made the misplay of killing the Germ so I can use my dead thoughtseize for value and prevent him from gaining life. That was so bad on my part, because I forgot that Batterskull was an equipment, not just an enchantment that happens to create a 4/4 lifelink vigilance creature every time it enters the battlefield. My opponent just snap attaches the equipment and beats down with a build-your-own white Grislebrand with vigilance. I topdeck a goyf to "race" and for some reason my opponent misplayed by blocking the goyf so I could shoot down the angel with pfire to trade. However, I'm still in a bad situation as my opponent casts Counsel Judgement, exiling my DRS and I have to race a Batterskull without enough mana to pfire the germ twice a turn. I just feel bad from my misplay and scoop it up, feeling exceptionally bad when losing a very favored match like that. I got pity Quickly boba from my friend who beat me in R3 after my loss, so I guess that makes up for me choking my win&in to top 8 twice. :/

Match Loss: 1-2
Overall Record: 2-2 (I'm a Grizzly Bear!)


Round 5: vs Chris (Burn)

Game 1: When I saw my last chance for the win&in was against the burn player I felt like I was being punished to the max for my mistake. If you take a look at my mainboard, my only way of life gain was through DRS, which was probably going to get insta-bolted. My sideboard was no better with Jitte as 5th way to gain life in my deck. Historically, in Modern, Jund is not favored and is heavily unfavored in Legacy. This is due to the fact that most of the burn in modern comes in the form of creatures which can and will be killed. However In legacy, most burn are in the form of spells not permanents, making this matchup that much worse. Also, Price of Progress is a house. The most I've ever taken from a price is 10 damage. So.... onto game 1, DRS dies, I get rolled, end of story.

Game 2: I side out 4 thoughtseizes for a Duress, Deed, Jitte, and Golgari Charm (as an extra answer to Sulfuric Vortex). I keep on a 6 with a fetch+grove/goyf/jitte/BBE/hymn. The game proceeds normally as Lava Spikes/Rift Bolts get sent towards my face. I get stuck on 2 lands this whole game with no way of paying BB so my hymn was dead in my hand and chose to play a T2 jitte and then a T3 goyf as a 2/3 with lands and sorcery in the yard and my opponent kills it with Chain Lightning, wisely electing to not use his instants to try to kill the goyf. I get lucky and topdeck another goyf, attaching the jitte to it the turn afterwards. I attack immediately after the equip into an opposing Eidolon of the Revel and my opponent makes a misplay here. Before combat, my goyf was a 4/5 and he had a lightning bolt in hand. What my opponent ought to have done was to bolt the goyf after blockers were declared/before combat damage to make sure the goyf doesn't get larger with eidolon in the yard. Instead he blocks and realizes his mistake immediately afterwards and the feels were very bad man. I ended up gaining 12 life from the jitte to win game 2.

Game 3: The impossible happens, as my opponent keeps a 1 land hand with lava spike, eidolons, goblin guides, and price of progress. He ends up drawing his 2nd land on turn 4 or 5 and by that point it was too late. The game ended with me at 6 life, punishing firing him at 2 for exactsies. At this point I realize that I have a high chance of making top 8 as my friend who beat me Round 3, proceed to dream crush his opponent in R5, thus improving my breakers. Also, the opponent who won against me in R4 barely managed to miss top 8, rip DnT guy.

Match Win: 2-1
Overall Record: 3-2 (Woolly Mammoths status!)


The Top 8 ended up looking like:
(1st Seed) GB Turbo Depths vs GB Loam Pox (8th Seed)
(2nd Seed) Infect vs Jund (7th Seed)
12 Post vs Miracles (<-rip)
Grixis Delver vs ANT


Round 6 (Quarter Finals): vs Eric (Infect) acquaintances/local player

Game 1: My friend Eric keeps a hand of Become Immense/Daze/Brainstorm/Forest/Inkmoth/Heirarch/Glistener Elf. I keep a hand of Thoughtseize/Bolt/Decay/Bob/Grove+Land, so pretty much the nut hand vs Infect. He played T1 forest, Heirarch and I played land and T1 thoughtseized the Become Immense. He then played Inkmoth and passed while I passed doing nothing on my T2 as well. He proceeded to attack on T3 with inkmoth to hit me for 2 infect due to heirarch trigger and played a glistener elf 2nd main. At the end of his turn, I bolted the the inkmoth and on my T3 I killed the glistener elf with my decay. The game then spiraled downwards from there as he was stuck on 1 basic land forest and I eventually resolved a threat with the pfire engine rev'ing with full force.

Game 2: I sided out 4 Lilianas, 2 BBE, 1 Maelstrom Pulse, and Chandra (basically taking out my sorcery speed kill spells for more instants or board wipes) for Deed (hits Inkmoths as well), Toxic Deluge, REB, Pyroblasts, Diabolic Edict, Pithing Needle (to name almost exclusively on Inkmoth), Jitte, and Golgari Charm. I keep a hand of Thoughtseize/Wasteland+2Lands/Hymn/Library/removal, basically another nut hand against infect. On his T1, from what I remember, he doesn't play a T1 infect creature so on my T1, I seize his Blighted Agent, leaving him with a hand of Force, Swords, Inkmoth, Vines of the Vastwood, and 2 Swords to Plowshares. He then played inkmoth and passed and I wastelanded his inkmoth immediately before he had a chance to have extra mana to protect it with vines. I then played Library on T3 which forced him to pitch Force of Will. I then hymned him on T4, taking away his 2 Swords to Plowshares, played goyf on T5 and bashed till he was ded. He was noticeably afterwards salty and I couldn't blame him for feeling so.

Match Win: 2-0
Overall Record: 4-2 (Upgrade time, I'm an Alpine Grizzly now!)


Other R6 matchups:
Loam Pox won Turbo Depths (TL;DR - Loam Pox Player drew more Crop Rotations than Turbo Depths)
Grixis Delver won vs Storm (No more fast combo, I have a chance!)
12 Post won vs a hard match up against Miracles :Kappa:
(At this point we were offered to split the pot & play for the GP Vegas Byes, but the Grixis Delver Player decided to play for everything)


Round 7 (Semifinals): vs Francis (12 Post), we are acquaintances and my record against him is 3-0 between different decks. He runs Maverick, ParaPost, 12 Post, Esper Miracles, and Tezzerator. The last time I played against him was on stream last Thursday on ParaPost at the BAE Twitch Stream (aka the Bay Area Eternal playtesting group in CA) which often streams on Thursday nights.

Game 1: Francis durdles in the early game with Sensei's Diving Top and I just beat down early on with 2 Bobs+Goyf+DRS, casting hymn to disrupt my opponent, ticking up with a lili to discard, ticking down to kill a Primeval Titan (which found Eye of Ugin and a 3rd Cloudpost) over the course of the next few turns. After untapping with his Eye of Ugin, my opponent proceeded to search for a Newlamog (the Ceaseless Hunger one) at my end step. At this point, I was at 15 life with 2 bobs on the field, a goyf, an active DRS, and a Lili, and on his main phase, Francis hard casted his eldrazi titan choosing to exile a Lili and a goyf. By him exiling a goyf instead of a bob ended up costing him the game since he could have chump blocked a goyf all day, and exiling a bob gave me one less draw into a possible out. Instead of taking any damage from the Dark Confidants, I revealed 2 Grove of the Burnwillows like a "certified Jund player" and drew a Liliana of the Veil off the top for my normal draw step. That was a super blowout on two parts, as Dark Confidants luckily let me take 0 twice to stay at 15 life, and find a Liliana of the Veil to kill his Ulamog. Consequently, I played a DRS to be able make my life total above 15 and swung in with both bobs to bring Francis to 3 life. At that point, even If Francis had tutored up an Emrakul, it would not have been enough. I had Pfire engine going and an active DRS next turn so it was essentially game and we moved onto game 2. At this point we were informed that these games were not timed, due to the nature of the top 8 (Surprise, surprise, both Francis and I were not used to playing in top 8 scenarios so we didn't realize this until game 2 of the semifinals), so we spent extra time looking at our sideboards.

Game 2: I sided out 3 Pfire, 1 Bolt, 1 Push, 1 Chandra, and 1 Lili for Duress, Deed, Needle, Null Rod, Edict, 2 Surgical Extractions. Basically, my thought process was to cut out all the small removal spells in favor for cards that help stun/slow down 12 Post's strategy. However, I didn't side in most of the anti-blue cards since I didn't find his strategy revolved too heavily around brainstorm as he has eye of ugin, exploration map, and top for card filtration. However, my thought process could be wrong if he boards in Show and Tell, but I didn't see any in all of my games against him (Please let me know, since I don't know the 12 Post matchup). I don't remember game 2 very well, but from what I can remember and what I see from my notepad, I didn't draw thoughtseize or wasteland, nor did I deal much damage to my opponent. I distinctly remember getting by a PrimeTime and dying soon afterwards.

Game 3: I realize that Maelstrom Pulse wasn't doing enough at sorcery speed, nor could it hit a Exedition Map on T2, so I cut it out in favor of Choke. In this G3, I manage to land an early DRS, Null Rod, and BBE into Sylvan Library. In between all of this, I abrupt decay a Map while he was tapped down before I land the Null Rod, along with 2 wastelands to timewalk him twice (I don't think Francis got past 4 lands by the end of G3). To seal the deal, I casted choke to lock out his blue mana and just aggroed him out to take the win.

Match Win: 2-1
Overall Record: 5-2 (I'm a Cobble Brute now, almost there...)


In the other semifinals match, the GB Loam Pox beat the Grixis Delver player by wastelanding and ghost quartering out from what I could see. I think he got at least 1 perfect victory aka no permanents on his opponent's side of the field.


Round 8 (Finals): vs Stephan (GB Loam Pox) acquaintances/local and my record against him before this was around 1-2 or 2-2.

Game 1: Because my opponent was the 8th seed, I get to go first for the first time in forever. I keep a hand with thoughtseize/lands/hymn/bob/library, and I T1 seize seeing a hand of Gurmag Angler/Hymn/Thoughtseize/Mox Diamond/Crop Rotation/Delta/Swamp. I take his Angler, which was his only threat and he proceeded to T1, land, mox, hymn me, taking away my Library+Land?. I then resolved a Bob and some other threats and aggro him out before he could set up his crop rotation for a Maze of Ith. By the time maze was in play, I had an active DRS and he was at 3 and so he conceded G1.

Game 2: I sided out Push, Bolt, 2 BBE, and 3 Pfire for Needle, Null Rod, Edict, 2 extractions, deed, and duress. I keep a hand of 2 lands/wasteland/DRS/Chandra/Decay/library and I realize that a fast chandra will be my best path to victory as it doesn't die to decay and I have decay for any potential Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker. The game starts off with Stephan playing Uborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, pass, while I T1 fetch basic swamp, Thoughtseize his Vampire Hexmage, leaving his hand with Wasteland/Stage/Maze/Bayou/Gurmag. He T2 does nothing while I T2 DRS. Stephan follows with playing The Tabernacle of the Pendrell Vale on T3, forcing me to pay mana for DRS. I pay for DRS before I play Badlands to cast a Sylvan Library. He then wastelands my Badlands on T4 and casts Life from the Loam while my DRS is tapped. I pay 1 for DRS and proceed to see a Surgical+Badlands+Relevant card and I choose to take 8 off the library. I surgical his loams going down to 6 and play out badlands to bait him playing his wasteland. On Stephan's T5, he wastes my 2nd badlands and passes while I see 2 lands off the top of my library. Over the next few turns, I play wasteland/land, pass to ultimately get 4 lands + DRS and tapp out to play Chandra. Stephan finally sees his opening and creates a Marit Lage on his turn, in fear of my wasteland. I once again topdeck like a "certified Jund player" and find a Liliana of the Veil on my 3rd and final card seen by Library and slam it down and minus. After that, I plus both my planeswalkers and indefinitely leave my wasteland up just in case of some shenanigans (In my fear to tap out I forgot that my Groves could tap for B due to my opponent's Urborg but I didn't realize this until after my match when my semi-finals opponent pointed that out to me). 3 turns later, I untap with a chandra on 7 ready to ultimate and I happen to find a surgical off my library, thus sealing the deal when I get chandra's emblem and cast surgical exiling all his dark depths with the additional bonus of Lava Axing Stephan for 5. Stephan realizes he has no more win cons left in his deck and sees the writing on the wall and concedes, making me the winner of the GPT!

Match Win: 2-0
Overall Record: 6-2 (Glass Golem OP!)


Overall, I felt that my deck felt very well positioned in the meta full of Blue decks, midrange, and DnT and it personally felt great from a deck building standpoint that I had at least a card for every matchup I played against during this tournament/fully utilized my sideboard over the course of these 8 rounds. Also, there was another GP Vegac Legacy GPT at Vacaville that locals went to that apparently was full of reanimator and fast combo, so I'm glad I didn't play any fast combo in the top 8. The best part about winning the GPT was realizing that this will give me 2 byes in GP Vegas. Dang, I still can't believe I won myself lol. If you have any questions about Legacy Punishing Jund or have any constructive criticism on my sideboarding, feel free to ask me!

[juzamjimjams]

@jeffieog

Congrats on your finish man, always nice to see the deck do well. The only real question I have is in terms of the way Fatal Push felt.
Is there really anything that Fatal Push hits that the deck can't inherently deal with? I generally really like at least a pair of lightning bolts for reach purposes, so I'm wondering if the cut is really worth it.

[Seraphix]

@jeffieog

Congrats on your finish man, always nice to see the deck do well. The only real question I have is in terms of the way Fatal Push felt.
Is there really anything that Fatal Push hits that the deck can't inherently deal with? I generally really like at least a pair of lightning bolts for reach purposes, so I'm wondering if the cut is really worth it.

A typical Bolt/Fire/Decay removal suite has trouble killing high toughness, high cmc creatures without help from Liliana. Push expands your range a little to hit cards like Thought-Knot Seer and Siege Rhino (lol), but still misses Reality Smasher and Delve creatures.

[hovercraft]

Nice showing! In the right meta Jund can still take it down. I have a lot of problems with Sneak and Show locally, but Jund is great vs all the BUG decks popping up.

[juzamjimjams]

@Seraphix

That certainly explains the card choice - the inclusion is what I am unclear on. The pfire, decay, bolt removal suite doesn't hit TKS and siege rhino, sure. Though I am not sure that these cards necessitate the change, it's sort of the function of the deck to mow down the smaller creatures to keep the opponent from going wide, so that LOTV can do work on the TKS and rhinos of the world.

I suppose what I am more asking is if there is any genuine reason to eschew the reach of our red spells for cards of narrower application, especially considering 4cmc creatures are certainly not the 'weakness' of the deck.

[jeffieog]

@jeffieog

Congrats on your finish man, always nice to see the deck do well. The only real question I have is in terms of the way Fatal Push felt.
Is there really anything that Fatal Push hits that the deck can't inherently deal with? I generally really like at least a pair of lightning bolts for reach purposes, so I'm wondering if the cut is really worth it.

Pro Push:
kills Thoughtnot Seer and Endless One (or any X cost creature), doesn't get countered by Hydroblast, kills any non indestructible token (like a 4/4 angel), kills Inkmoth Nexus while ignoring pump spells, kills Scavenging Ooze and Tarmogoyf no questions asked, kills Knight of the Relinquary, and is less taxing on the manabase since it can be cast with basic swamp and Jund normally doesn't run basic mountain

Pro Bolt:
Kills Jace, the Mindsculptor if opponent +0's him, is burn for lethal, helps chumping, extra out against Mirran Crusader

Similarities:
both kill Mother of Runes t1, both kills Leovold, Emissary of Trest (although push needs extra effort), and kills most manlands in legacy

Both do not answer:
Reality Smasher, Gurmag Angler, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, True Name Nemesis, Marit Lage Token, Gristlebrand (or any other reanimated fatty)

For me, I always ran 2 bolts in my Jund deck pre-push and this pro/con list incentivized me to cut 1, if not my second (depending on my testing).

[juzamjimjams]

Pro Push:
kills Thoughtnot Seer and Endless One (or any X cost creature), doesn't get countered by Hydroblast, kills any non indestructible token (like a 4/4 angel), kills Inkmoth Nexus while ignoring pump spells, kills Scavenging Ooze and Tarmogoyf no questions asked, kills Knight of the Relinquary, and is less taxing on the manabase since it can be cast with basic swamp and Jund normally doesn't run basic mountain

Pro Bolt:
Kills Jace, the Mindsculptor if opponent +0's him, is burn for lethal, helps chumping, extra out against Mirran Crusader

Similarities:
both kill Mother of Runes t1, both kills Leovold, Emissary of Trest (although push needs extra effort), and kills most manlands in legacy

Both do not answer:
Reality Smasher, Gurmag Angler, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, True Name Nemesis, Marit Lage Token, Gristlebrand (or any other reanimated fatty)

For me, I always ran 2 bolts in my Jund deck pre-push and this pro/con list incentivized me to cut 1, if not my second (depending on my testing).

This seems well reasoned.
I find my local meta a little too heavy in combo to justify dropping the bolts, though this may not be a worthy argument considering these match ups are not really close regardless. Moving forward do you think you'll try more pushes, having tested them in a larger tournament?

[toffee]

Hi all,
I'm Fabio and I'm an italian magic player.
I'm new into this fantastic deck.
I played Miracle before the ban, and I want to buy all cards about Jund Modern & Legacy.
About Legacy, this is my list I test now, with the new "metagame":

LEGACY JUND

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push
1 Night's Whisper/Painful Truths/Sylvan Library

4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize

4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs

SIDEBOARD
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Pyroblast
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dread Of Night
1 Golgari Charm
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Choke
1 Painful Truths
1 Pithing Needle
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam

My sideboard is meta-dependent in my local tournaments...
What do u think about my main? I play the fullset of tourach because there are some sneak&show and bug/bant control in my local tournaments..

[Scott]

Grim Flayer in a Bob-less 5-0 MTGO list today (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-13)

// Planeswalker (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

// Creature (14)
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Grim Flayer
4 Tarmogoyf

// Sorcery (9)
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Life from the Loam
4 Thoughtseize

// Instant (10)
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt

// Land (23)
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Fatal Push
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Smash to Smithereens

[jeffieog]

Hi all,
I'm Fabio and I'm an italian magic player.
I'm new into this fantastic deck.
I played Miracle before the ban, and I want to buy all cards about Jund Modern & Legacy.
About Legacy, this is my list I test now, with the new "metagame":

LEGACY JUND

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push
1 Night's Whisper/Painful Truths/Sylvan Library

4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize

4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs

SIDEBOARD
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Pyroblast
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dread Of Night
1 Golgari Charm
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Choke
1 Painful Truths
1 Pithing Needle
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam

My sideboard is meta-dependent in my local tournaments...
What do u think about my main? I play the fullset of tourach because there are some sneak&show and bug/bant control in my local tournaments..

I like sylvan main because it grows the tarmogoyf if killed or just gets me incremental value. How do you like 2 basic swamps in the main? I personally don't like marsh casualties, how has it worked for you?

[toffee]

I like sylvan main because it grows the tarmogoyf if killed or just gets me incremental value. How do you like 2 basic swamps in the main? I personally don't like marsh casualties, how has it worked for you?

Hi mate,
Marsh Casualties was tested and I don't like it now.
About Sylvan Library, I don't want to play now, because the metagame is very fast, and I don't want to lose some amount of life points...
After my previous post, I decided to test another list, with some nice results:

1 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize

4 Liliana of the Veil

SIDEBOARD
2 Duress
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Engineered Plague
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Choke
1 Pithing Needle
1 Painful Truths
1 Life from the Loam

My meta was full of combo, delver and D&T decks....
I love kolaghan's command. my choice was about the secondo KCommand or the fourth abrupt decay.
what do u think about these cards? is 1 maindeck KCommand enough?
Thank you so much for your replies.

[hovercraft]

Mirri's Guile can be a decent replacement for Sylvan Library. No extra card draw, but can come down on turn 1 and smooth your draws +help reduce life loss to Dark Confidant.

I like 2 KCommand right now I think.

[toffee]

Mirri's Guile can be a decent replacement for Sylvan Library. No extra card draw, but can come down on turn 1 and smooth your draws +help reduce life loss to Dark Confidant.

I like 2 KCommand right now I think.

About the second KCommand, I don't know because I don't want to increase my manacurve, so I decided to put the 4th ADecay instead of its.

About Mirri's Guile....at this point Sylvan is better!! but in my opinion it isn't to play now..

[hovercraft]

About the second KCommand, I don't know because I don't want to increase my manacurve, so I decided to put the 4th ADecay instead of its.

About Mirri's Guile....at this point Sylvan is better!! but in my opinion it isn't to play now..

I actually still play 1 Guile and 1 Library. The card selection is usually worth it even if you don't want to pay any life to draw extra cards. Can always side it out if you really don't want it in some matchups.

On KCommand, I play 3 Liliana and 2 Kcommand at 3 mana spot right now, so still only 5 three drops. You could put a 2nd KCommand in the board maybe and bring it in for artifact heavy decks (DnT).

I don't think Painful Truths in the SB since its useless if you cascade into it. A 2nd surgical or something anti combo would probably be more useful.

[toffee]

hi friends, tonight I played Jund in my local tournment.
4-0 and I'm so happy with this decklist:

1 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Kolaghan's Command

4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize

4 Liliana of the Veil

SIDEBOARD
3 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Pithing Needle
1 Night's Whisper/Sylvan Library
(I played NW)
1 Life from the Loam

Team America 2-0
death&Taxes 2-1
Team America 2-1 (stifle deck)
Nic Fit 2-1

I have only one problem: I draw too many lands hahahaha
About my choices in the main, I like the kolaghan's command because this was never a dead card in hand.
In addition, the split 3-3 of LBolt and PFire is the best choice. I would to you about my choice.
In the end, I would have in hand BElf in every match, but I don't want to add the 4th, because there are too many wastelands and I believe it is 'only' a finisher in this deck. What do u think about my choices and my comments?

Sorry for my bad english, I'm an Italian Magic Player =)

[jraniga]

Jund was my first deck in Legacy, played it extensively but then changed decks when the meta became a bit hostile towards it. Moved onto miracles and now that deck is gone I'm looking at other options for Vegas. Sleeved up Jund again for the first time in a while at last nights local legacy. But I went for something a bit different. This was inspired by Reid Dukes videos a while back on Jund, I wanted to try out some other form of mana acceleration and I tried out chrome mox.

One of the big issues I have with the deck that there aren't many proactive plays on turn one, DRS being really the only one. You are often just being reactive in the early turns and at times you struggle to turn things around fast enough. The reasoning for mox is to try and get on board quicker and also get your haymakers/CA engine going faster (BBE, fires, Lili). There are certainly big downsides to running mox, you are down cards, it's a horrible top deck and flip to BBE and bad in multiples. I think you might be able to make it work with some tweaks and this is my first attempt at it.

I changed the deck around a bit, the list certainly isn't ideal, but the moxen proved to be very good in the 4 matches i played. I added Night's whisper instead of Library or Painful truths, I thought with the extra mana but card disadvantage with mox it's better to have a more reliable/immediate source of cards. Some of the thoughtseize should probably be IoK as there is a bit of life loss currently. Some numbers are shaved to make room for these additions, lots of further tweaking will be required.

Here is the list

Land (21);
4 Verdants
4 Mires
2 Bayou
3 badlands
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 grove


Creatures (15)
4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Bob
3 BBE

Instants/Sorceries(18)
2 Decay
4 Punishing Fire
4 thoughtseize
3 Hymn
2 Kolaghan's command
3 Night's whisper

Other (6)
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Chrome Mox

Sideboard
3 Duress
2 REB
2 Choke
1 Hymn
2 Engineered Plague
2 Grafdiggers cage
2 Surgical
1 Jitte


Matchups;
Storm 2-0
Eldrazi 2-0 (colourless)
U/R landstill 1-0 (I would have won game 2 with one more turn)
Jund 2-1

[hovercraft]

I am not a fan of Mox with BBE

[Whit3boy316]

No sylvan library? I can't tell you how many times that card has won me the match

[jraniga]

No sylvan library? I can't tell you how many times that card has won me the match

I was testing out night's whisper in it's spot, but a combination of the two is probably correct. I have always played 2 library in the more traditional jund list, wanted to try whisper as you can run more copies of it, and getting the card draw on the same turn can be valuable.The next list I test will have 2 library and one whisper.

Yes mox is not a great hit with BBE, but I think that's not much of a concern, compared to the card disadvantage of playing mox. There were 3 occasions over 4 rounds that I could cast BBE on turn 3 because of mox, once I hit mox with it, but getting the BBE down earlier and applying pressure was a lot more important.

[toffee]

Hi all, I played another local tournment and I made 3-1.

Death&Taxes 2-0
Elves 2-1
Team America 2-1
Ur Standstill 1-2

My list:
1 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize

4 Liliana of the Veil

SIDEBOARD
3 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Choke
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam

I'm very happy about the result with this list...in my opinion, bob is taken away immediately or after a turn, and I want to have all cards that make me 2x1. Kolaghan's Command is a nice card, and I want to see every match. In addition, the 61th card is the 3th Lightning Bolt. I don't like the idea of 2 Bolt hahahahaha.
Have you ever tested a similar list?

Ps: other test tonight with my friends... DT and Stoneblade.
kolaghan's command MVP. I tried the 4th BBelf but his mana cost is too much, with DTaxes....so, I believe that 3x is the right number.

[chalupa43087]

Hey everyone. I made a 30 minute deck teck with some timestamps in the description for those looking for specifics I mentioned as well as a written deck list in their. Feel free to comment with any thoughts. Hope everyone enjoys. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LN1F-yEhD6E

[lavafrogg]

Jund seems to be having a bit of a resurgence, any new tech or just the same old grindhouse?

[lavafrogg]

Another question.

Isn't lighting bolt better than Decay at this point? K.Command handles equipment better than decay(sans counters) and is also pretty much the reason I want to pick up the deck.... and bolt + fire or bolt + DRS is 5 to a creature or 5 to the dome.

[itaijan]

Chandra
Jund tends to play grindy games and she helps tremendously

Fatal push
Need to make a spot for atleast one i think

Mirrirs guile
Im going to start testing this bc chains of mephistopheles and i barley spend life for cards with sylvan library

Bloodbraid is getting worse
Im sure many will disagree bc its like the theme of the deck but im playing with only 1 now might go to 0

Still need decays bc delver has a lot of counter spells and having a removal you're not worried to b countered helps

[tescrin]

I do hope someday people find a successful brew of this deck with DRS + Goyf + Eidolon + Discard and maybe even some Grim Lavamen That would be a beautiful sight to me. Eidolon + discard would up the decks' game against Storm and similar, and Goyf would get bigger beats out of the deal.

[non-inflammable]

I ran this about 6 months ago and it was hilarious...

4 chains of mephistopheles
3 anvil of bogardan
4 deathrite shaman
3 punishing fire
1 kolaghan's command
3 abrupt decay
4 dark confidant
3 thoughtseize
1 inquisition of kozilek
3 hymn to tourach
2 mox diamond
1 cursed scroll
3 liliana of the veil
1 waste not
1 crucible of worlds
1 life from the loam

1 mountain
1 forest
2 swamp
3 verdant catacombs
2 bayou
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3 wasteland
2 badlands
3 bloodstained mire
3 grove of the burnwillows
1 raging ravine

SB was a mess
1 virtue's ruin
1 reclamation sage
1 toxic deluge
1 maelstrom pulse
1 diabolic edict
2 surgical extraction
1 boil
1 red elemental blast
3 leyline of sanctity
3 leyline of the void


EDIT: I would drop waste not and the mox diamonds for maybe ensnaring bridge, grim lavamancer and scavenging ooze.



I do hope someday people find a successful brew of this deck with DRS + Goyf + Eidolon + Discard and maybe even some Grim Lavamen That would be a beautiful sight to me. Eidolon + discard would up the decks' game against Storm and similar, and Goyf would get bigger beats out of the deal.


with the printing of geier reach sanitarium, the anvil of bogardan can be dropped to 1 or maybe dropped completely.
re-work the mana base to support double red for eidolon and go all-in with 4 Goyfs. the discard suite can be your choice...

[hovercraft]

Currently running 2 K-Command maindeck and in a fair leaning meta they are unreal. BBE--->Kcommand or even Kcommand to return a BBE from the yard to play again are pure Jund value trains.

[CptHaddock]

Currently running 2 K-Command maindeck and in a fair leaning meta they are unreal. BBE--->Kcommand or even Kcommand to return a BBE from the yard to play again are pure Jund value trains.

KCommand is absolute GAS in this deck. It's always fun timewalking when you make your opponent discard on their draw step and bring back BBE. I think with command in the format you have enough removal spells to not run the punishing grove combo and just quadlaser decay, lili and push with 1/2 commands. Now to figure out how to not get dumpstered on by lands or combo decks.

[tescrin]

KCommand is absolute GAS in this deck. It's always fun timewalking when you make your opponent discard on their draw step and bring back BBE. I think with command in the format you have enough removal spells to not run the punishing grove combo and just quadlaser decay, lili and push with 1/2 commands. Now to figure out how to not get dumpstered on by lands or combo decks.

That's sort of why I brought up EotGR. I've always wanted to jam him in Jund. The nastiness of "I have a lily online, you're taking 2 a turn, and you can hit yourself for 2 and sack your dude" seems great, but equally EotGR is typically good against combo and so is Lily. Having the curve out of 5-6 1CC discard, 3-4 EotGR, and 2-3 LotV is a pretty reasonable anti-combo game; stacked with the clock of Goyf your only real issue is figuring out how to get the mana to work; which probably involves the unfortunate cutting of PFire. Thus, to mitigate this, Grims can come in, acting as further Lilianas, to allow the soft-lock of EotGR + spell-less removal to be that much more obnoxious.

Note: If Cabal Therapy were ran, one can sac their EotGR without taking damage if it mattered, and the deck could go totally weird with both Probe + Therapy (though that's probably a bit deep.)

My issue with that direction back when I tried it was Miracles and how decks survived with a Miracles meta. Maybe it's totally dumb, but something along those lines seems like it'd have legs against the durdley cantrippy 1-2 threats at a time decks that we see. Bolts + Goyf + EotGR suggests the deck can close games quick. I don't have my Lili's anymore, but maybe I can get a couple in a bit; as it looks like they're slowly falling in price.

[hovercraft]

KCommand is absolute GAS in this deck. It's always fun timewalking when you make your opponent discard on their draw step and bring back BBE. I think with command in the format you have enough removal spells to not run the punishing grove combo and just quadlaser decay, lili and push with 1/2 commands. Now to figure out how to not get dumpstered on by lands or combo decks.

I like pfire still, I just cut Abrupt down to 2 main with 2 K commands. I haven't played with Push yet, but I've been running 1 diabolic edict for fatty based combo decks, like Depths, Sns, or reanimator.

[meite]

Took a 5th place in 36 player tournament with Jund. I won the swiss but lost in the first round of top 8.

Main Deck:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
1 Terminate

4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

2 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
3 Duress
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pithing Needle
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge

R1 - Sneak Attack (2-0)
G1 - T2 Hymn, T3 Hymn, T4 Seize + Hymn. Game went long but opponent did not stand a chance after that amount of discard.
OUT: 3 bolt, 3 pfire, 2 decay, Kommand, Terminate - IN: 3 Duress, 2 Bridge, Golgari Charm, Needle, Pulse, 2 Surgical
G2 - Early discard makes him into topdeck mode quickly. He blood moons but I have basics out and draw Golgari Charm. I almost punt by letting him keep Emrakul in hand with Seize. Then he later on topdecks a Sneak Attack, luckily I have lethal on board and he has only one red mana source.

R2 - BUG Leovold (2-0)
G1 - I attack his mana aggressively by wastelanding and firing his deathrite shaman. He resolves a TNN, but I answer with Lili. He cant keep up when I resolve Hymns and Tarmogoyfs.
OUT: 4 Thoughtseize - IN: 2 REB, Deluge, Golgari Charm
G2 - I manage to charge his mana again, but the game goes a bit longer. I counter his TNN or Jace with REB I think.

R3 - Grixis Delver (2-1)
These were 3 extremely tight games, I can't remember exact details of each game. He takes the second game with a bold Fire covenant, by killing a 5/6 Tarmogoyf and Bob. I think that Tarmogoyf is very important in this matchup, since it ends up being bigger than Gurmag Angler.
OUT: 4 Hymn, 2 Seize - IN: Pulse, Golgari Charm, Loam , 2 REB, Deluge

R4 - Miracles (1-0-1)
G1 - Opponent FoWs the first hymn and lets the second one resolve. Game goes very long anyways, but Bobs and Sylvan library takes me there anyways.
OUT: 3 bolt, Terminate - IN: 2 REB, Pulse, Needle
G2 - This is also very long game. I think he surgicals my pfires at some point. I destroy Jace with REB. Round time ends and he has Monastery Mentor and some monks on the table, but I manage to chump block and gain life with Deathrite enough so that we draw the second game!

Hooray, my first ever top8 in a bigger tournament is now reality!

R5 - ID
R6 - ID

TOP8 - Grixis Delver (1-2) (same player I faced on R3)
G1 - Long battle where we wasteland each other, until I eventually manage to cut him out of black mana. He scoops after he realizes that he cant get anything to stick on the table due to my pfire lock.
OUT: 4 Hymn, 2 Seize - IN: Pulse, Golgari Charm, Loam , 2 REB, Deluge
G2 - I have opponent on 4 life with Deathrite Shaman on the table and his empty board. He manages to find bolt + angler with a Ponder while I dont draw removal.
G3 - I have a decent starting hand with 2 Goyfs and Bob. I bait lightning bolt with one 1/2 Goyf in hope to get Bob to stick on the table. He takes the bait and bolts the Goyf, BUT after that he surgicals my Goyfs. This made me quite threat light, but the game goes long anyways. It all ends when I get unlucky with card drawing and draw 3-4 lands in a row.

The list felt very good, but I am not sure if it would need something more against the Grixis Delver, I felt somewhat uncomfortable when playing against it.

[non-inflammable]

your only real issue is figuring out how to get the mana to work.

is your intent to always be able to cast Eidolon on turn two?
give up the grove combo with P-fire and maybe drop hymn to tourach?

just throwing this out there:


1 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountains
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Badlands
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
? Grim Lavamancer

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Thoughtseize

4 Liliana of the Veil

[tescrin]

Yeah something like that would be pretty dreamy. I'd maybe cut an EotGR and a Lily to ease the mana and then put consistency engines in place (Oath of Nissa, Mirri's Guile, Sylvan Library, you get the idea.) I found Oath of Nissa pretty good at being an almost-preordain/ponder when I was toying with 4 color decks and Lilys. Fixing the mana for Lily as an incidental was alright, and pumping Goyf always felt good. The fact it often found a dude or a land (or lily) and pushed away what I didn't want was pretty good.

I've played in the past with Lavaman + DRS + Lily and its not too bad. Lavaman + Lily clears boards, DRS + Lavaman is a good clock, and DRS + Lily.. well... we all love that.

______
Other notes:
Another thing I was mentioning to a P-Mav player was I have enjoyed a Pyro next to PFire and a 1-2 Loam. The repeat casting next to Pyro would fill the board while I nip'd their dudes or lands. Felt pretty good when it'd happen. Can't say if it's great or not as I only played it a little bit and it had the same miracles issues at the time.

[non-inflammable]

I'd maybe cut an EotGR and a Lily to ease the mana and then put consistency engines in place (Oath of Nissa, Mirri's Guile, Sylvan Library, you get the idea.) I found Oath of Nissa pretty good at being an almost-preordain/ponder when I was toying with 4 color decks and Lilys. Fixing the mana for Lily as an incidental was alright,

Well, don't stop now! i'm just spitballin' here but i do like your idea of using Eidolon.

I'd have to say Mirri's Guile gets the nod just due to Dark Confidant triggers...

I got it to 60 with 23 land, maybe someone else can massage a list?


1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Mountains
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Badlands
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Grim Lavamancer

1 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Thoughtseize

3 Liliana of the Veil

[tescrin]

I think I'd go:
-1 Badlands, +1 Taiga
-1 Mountain, -1 Abrupt Decay, +2 Collective Brutality
-1 Library, +1 Guile (increases 1-drops and keepable hands I think? Not a touchy point for me)

That gives 5 targeted discard (which is not too bad) and I think the life-gain on Brutality can be helpful in a deck that drains itself a lot. Brutality has been showing itself good in other decks for it's versatility and I imagine it's decent here where every card that can be good against combo and fair decks at the same time is necessary.

The deck still has 11 CA cards before counting Grim Lavamancer/Library, which is not too shabby; 5 answers to equipment before counting discard. Might be alright

[toffee]

Hi mates, yesterday I made top4 in my local tournment with 42 players.
This is the list I've played:

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library

4 Liliana of the Veil

SIDEBOARD
3 Duress
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Choke
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage

T1: BUG CONTROL 2-1 (1-0)
GAME 1: Deathrite and Liliana in the first two rounds...a Tarmogoyf closed the match.
GAME 2: I had a Dark Confidant and a Tarmogoyf onto the battlefield...2 Hymn to Tourach were resolved before. At his topdeck: Fatal Push, Snapcaster Mage, Leovold and Tombstalker....
GAME 3: Land Seize, Land Tourach, Land Liliana won the game.

SIDEBOARD: +1 Choke +1 Garruk Relentless | -2 Lightning Bolt

T2: MONO BLACK 1-2 (1-1)
GAME 1: He began with land - dark ritual - seize - tourach......Lost the match LOL
GAME 2: Ultimate of Liliana and 2 Tarmogoyf.
GAME 3: He began with land - seize...after that, land sinkhole and then Liliana, the last hope + Waste not....Lost the match.

SIDEBOARD: +3 Duress +1 Surgical Extraction | -2 Bloodbraid Elf -2 Lightning Bolt

T3: GRIXIS CONTROL 2-1 (2-1)
GAME 1: With 2 tourach resolved, We were at topdeck with a Sylvan Library onto my battlefield...I lost 8 damages with Liliana, Goyf and Deathrite and then Elf with Punishing Fire.
GAME 2: The recursion of Snapcaster + Strix + KCommand destroyed me.
GAME 3: Land Deathrite. His turn land deathrite...my turn wasteland on his land + Decay on his Deathrite. This advantage has led me to victory.

SIDEBOARD: +1 Choke +1 Garruk Relentless | -2 Lightning Bolt

T4: ELDRAZI 2-1 (3-1)
GAME 1: He began with Chalice of the Void and Thoughknot Seer...His race was too fast for me.
GAME 2: Land Deathrite + 2 Liliana of the Veil and Tourach...G3
GAME 3: Liliana of the Veil was the MVP in this game because of his Seer which can make me to draw 2 Tarmogoyf.

SIDEBOARD: +1 Diabolic Edict +1 Toxic Deluge | -2 Lightning Bolt

T5: INFECT 2-0 (4-1)
GAME 1: Seize + Tourach G2.
GAME 2: Deathrite + Wasta/Duress/Bolt + Tourach/Confidant. GG

SIDEBOARD: +3 Duress +1 Diabolic Edict +1 Pyroblast +1 Golgari Charm | -4 Liliana of the Veil -2 Bloodbraid Elf

T6: JUND 1-1 (4-1-1) I.D.

TOP8
MONOBLACK 2-0
GAME 1: His mulligan to 5 was too lucky for me.
GAME 2: My seize + tourach + 2 duress saved me about his missiles in the hand.

SIDEBOARD: +3 Duress +1 Surgical Extraction | -2 Bloodbraid Elf -2 Lightning Bolt

TOP4
DEATHBLADE 1-2
GAME 1: Land Deathrite and the same in opponent's turn. Wasteland on his land + Decay on his Deathrite. My tourach resolved brought home the victory.
GAME 2: He drew all Stoneforge and Nemesi in his deck.
GAME 3: We were at topdeck but I had a Confidant and a Goyf onto the battlefield...He managed to draw Push + Swords to Plowshares + Nemesi + Nemesi + Jitte. I drew only lands after this turn.....

So, considerations:
- Bloodbraid Elf: it is a strong card, but with his cascade ..... only shits =) Maybe I can cut all for another KCommand + Garruk Relentless...but I'm not sure about this choice...What do u think about BElf?
- Lightning Bolt: I believe this is useless now, because ever side out in every matchups. But I don't know what could be its replacement.
- 23 lands: perfect number with this list.
- Sylvan Library: MVP in every matchups....this is the 1 one perfect slot in every Jund List.
- Choke: I've ever had in my hand when it was sideboard in, but I prefered to have another card instead of. I don't know, maybe replaced with Chains of Mephistopheles or the 4th Duress or the 3th BElf (against control and other decks where I need card advantage).
- Punishing Fire: a Strong card and in addition the best target with the opponent's Surgical Extraction. I played 3 but I drew some times. But Jund needs this card.

- So, what do u think about my list?

[chalupa43087]

Toffee if you haven't been happy with Bloodbraid elf I have been having a lot of success with Grim Flayer as my BBE replacement. It's significantly cheaper and is really good at digging for answers vs Combo. It's also really nice that it tramples over True Name Nemesis regardless if delirium is enabled but if it is it can attack through it for three damage and also survive. It also is a really good buddy with dark confidant at setting up what you will reveal to him. Try it out!

[toffee]

Toffee if you haven't been happy with Bloodbraid elf I have been having a lot of success with Grim Flayer as my BBE replacement. It's significantly cheaper and is really good at digging for answers vs Combo. It's also really nice that it tramples over True Name Nemesis regardless if delirium is enabled but if it is it can attack through it for three damage and also survive. It also is a really good buddy with dark confidant at setting up what you will reveal to him. Try it out!

Hi mate, I've tested it a lot but it was never in delirium and in lategame I prefer again BElf for his haste and his 'card advantage'.
Maybe I'll test GFlayer again, but I'm not sure about it.

[chalupa43087]

I admittedly have come to a bit of a different build of Jund in the past few month than what I have seen that fits more of what I think makes the deck strong in a post miracles world Ex: I don't play Hymn at all and play 2 Abrupt Decays now and instead play Collective Brutality and a few Inquisition of Kozikek. The Brutality is really good as a middle ground card that can deal with creatures when that is relevant and also has utility vs combo when decays would otherwise be a completely dead card. The ability to escalate can help me fuel delirium for GFlayer and also is a good outlet to pitch punishing fires which GFlayer also finds for you when you discard it. BBE is a powerful card but the coin flip aspect to it has always bothered m and I like that I know exactly what I am getting every time with Flayer and because it comes down a turn sooner is also better vs Combo decks and again can actually attack through a Leovold or a True Name Nemesis which BBE cannot do making its haste sometimes a meaningless text a lot of times.

[hovercraft]

I still love BBE in Jund, the value train is too fun and can take back a game where you are behind. I only have 1 Goyf, but I have been using Flayer in some of my Goyf-slots and he is a great alternative.

I also still run 2 Bolts over Fatal Pushes, as I do like Bolt as part of our "clock". I went 5-1 in a recent local Legacy League , beating : Maverick, 4c Control, Aluren, MUD-post, Imperial Painter. Losing to UB Reanimator. Bloodbraid was a key part of a lot of those wins.

[CptHaddock]

I still love BBE in Jund, the value train is too fun and can take back a game where you are behind. I only have 1 Goyf, but I have been using Flayer in some of my Goyf-slots and he is a great alternative.

I also still run 2 Bolts over Fatal Pushes, as I do like Bolt as part of our "clock". I went 5-1 in a recent local Legacy League , beating : Maverick, 4c Control, Aluren, MUD-post, Imperial Painter. Losing to UB Reanimator. Bloodbraid was a key part of a lot of those wins.

I don't think I would run anything less than 4 BBEs unless the meta is 100% combo in which I would probably never run this deck. It seems really weird to cut Goyf though, that is probably one of the few cards we can actually depend upon to do something. As strange as this sounds i've cut my bobs and replaced them with flayers, they were frequently the worst card in my deck. I was happier curving directly into either a turn 2 Lili or some combination of discard/removal/wastelands and sometimes goyf/flayer.

I'm not playing punishing fires in my version instead going for 4x Bolt, Decay and 2x Command. I'm playing 2x pushes in my board but I don't think they are needed at all...

[hovercraft]

I don't think I would run anything less than 4 BBEs unless the meta is 100% combo in which I would probably never run this deck. It seems really weird to cut Goyf though, that is probably one of the few cards we can actually depend upon to do something. As strange as this sounds i've cut my bobs and replaced them with flayers, they were frequently the worst card in my deck. I was happier curving directly into either a turn 2 Lili or some combination of discard/removal/wastelands and sometimes goyf/flayer.

I'm not playing punishing fires in my version instead going for 4x Bolt, Decay and 2x Command. I'm playing 2x pushes in my board but I don't think they are needed at all...

Cutting goyf was a budget decision as I sold mine last year. I managed to pull one in a MM17 draft so right now I run 1 Goyf, 1 Flayer 1 Scooze and 1 Jitte in my 2 cmc beater slots. Less consistent, but I haven't had much issue with it. Love Jitte. I'm still big on Confidant. T1 DRS into T2 Bob+Wasteland is one of my favorite tempo Jund plays when you can pull it off.

[toffee]

A question: is there a facebook chat where we can talk about Jund?

[aromaticity]

I don't think I would run anything less than 4 BBEs unless the meta is 100% combo in which I would probably never run this deck. It seems really weird to cut Goyf though, that is probably one of the few cards we can actually depend upon to do something. As strange as this sounds i've cut my bobs and replaced them with flayers, they were frequently the worst card in my deck. I was happier curving directly into either a turn 2 Lili or some combination of discard/removal/wastelands and sometimes goyf/flayer.

I'm not playing punishing fires in my version instead going for 4x Bolt, Decay and 2x Command. I'm playing 2x pushes in my board but I don't think they are needed at all...

Are you QBTurtle on MTGO?

[CptHaddock]

Are you QBTurtle on MTGO?

Lmao no, I wish could be that good. I've spoken and played him/her a bunch on MTGO though, they're the person who convinced me to cut fires and try Grim Flayer out. My sideboard is roughly the same, I don't run Chandra though.

2 Duress
2 Fatal Push
2 Collective Brutality
2 Engineered Plague
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Diabolic Edict

[aromaticity]

Lmao no, I wish could be that good. I've spoken and played him/her a bunch on MTGO though, they're the person who convinced me to cut fires and try Grim Flayer out. My sideboard is roughly the same, I don't run Chandra though.

2 Duress
2 Fatal Push
2 Collective Brutality
2 Engineered Plague
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Diabolic Edict

What were some of their reasons? I've never really been disappointed with Confidant so I was surprised by the switch there. I can go either way on cutting PFire but in general on here and MTGSalvation it seems that a lot of players prefer groveless.

[CptHaddock]

What were some of their reasons? I've never really been disappointed with Confidant so I was surprised by the switch there. I can go either way on cutting PFire but in general on here and MTGSalvation it seems that a lot of players prefer groveless.

They felt that confidant was too fragile with the amount of delver running around and they wanted something that was also relevant later in the game. I was pretty skeptical of the delirium but you can usually get to delirium in almost every game, it's not hard to fill your yard in most matchups with land, instant, sorcery and creature. This deck plays a crapton of removal already so I don't think that fires are necessary. I think the biggest loss of not having fires is that you can no longer pressure walkers constantly even when you are drawing poorly, and you gotta take into account that you no longer have the fire engine when playing against decks that spit out creatures like elves. The completely fetchable manabase is super nice though. :tongue:

I don't think that there is any wrong or right way to build this deck, just build it how you like to play. I don't remember who it was but someone in this thread said earlier that the core of the deck is Goyf, DRS and Decay without everything else being debatable, I think that summarizes this deck up really well.

[toffee]

Hi mates, yesterday I made TOP8/46 in MLL(Milan Legacy League) with Jund.
This is my decklist:

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library

4 Liliana of the Veil

SIDEBOARD
2 Duress
2 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Collective Brutality
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm

T1: PATRIOT 1-1 (0-0-1)
GAME 1: A very long game. Finally he was at 2 life points with True-Name Nemesis and a Umezawa's Jitte. Into my battlefield: Liliana at 2, Tarmogoyf 7/8, Deathrite Shaman. He had lost mathematically in short. Instead he managed to draw a Swords to Plowshares which he moved the balance needle in his favour: StP to Goyf, Combat on Lily with TNN and 2 counters to Deathrite Shaman. I've lost the match in this mode.
GAME 2: Land-Deathrite, Land-Liliana, Land-Elf + Goyf and then, Elf + PFire...GG.
GAME 3: Another very long game. I hadn't draw any KCommand or Lilly in order to destroy his Batterskull, and then the bell rang. 1-1

T2: NEW MIRACLE 2-0 (1-0-1)
GAME 1: Deathrite-Tourach-Tourach + Liliana. GG
GAME 2: The choice to split 2 Elf MD and 2 SB was very strong. The pressure it gave me was what I needed. 2 Elf + some discard spells and I brought home the match.

T3: DEATHBLADE 1-2 (1-1-1)
GAME 1: A grindy match. But 2 Goyf 7/8 resolved the match.
GAME 2: He drew all spells he needed. He managed to counter 2 Tourach and a Toxic Deluge with 2 Nemesis.
GAME 3: He made Shaman, Stoneforge, TNN, TNN, Jace. I drew only lands and I mulligan to 5.

T4: SNEAK&SHOW 2-1 (2-1-1)
GAME 1: he won easily despite of a Tourach.
GAME 2: Duress + SExtraction on Sneak. Another Seize on STell and Goyf made me the victory.
GAME 3: Duress-Counter, Tourach-Counter, Show&tell --> show: Griselbrand and Chains of Mephistopheles. In my turn Liliana of the Veil and I won the game.

T5: UB CONTROL 2-1 (3-1-1)
GAME 1: Another very long game. He played a strange deck with Crucible of Worlds-EE-Academy Ruins and Volrath's Stronghold. I conceded after 10 minutes -.-.
GAME 2: Seize + Tourach + Bob + Elf + Elf. G3.
GAME 3: A very very very long game. I managed to do the Ultimate of Liliana, but he drew Crucible. He drew all removal he nedeed, but in the second additional turn 2 Elf brought home the match (Punishing Fire and Goyf cascade ability).

T6: ESPER MIRACLE 2-1 (4-1-1)
GAME 1: I didn't draw any discard spell and, on the other hand, he drew all Predict he needed. I conceded after his 3th predict, even if he hadn't the finisher.
GAME 2: Shaman, Tourach, Elf + Elf. G3.
GAME 3: Seize + Duress + Tourach + Liliana / Chains. GG.

TOP8: GRIXIS CONTROL 0-2
GAME 1: I drew all Decays. A Gurmag Angler the finisher.
GAME 2: I had only dual + Grove in my hand. I played Seize and Goyf. He drew at 3th turn Blood Moon and I've lost the match.

So, I'm very happy about my second positive result with this decklist.
With Jund I made only 2 tournments...I can't wish for better.
With this top8, I finished 4th in the final League Ranking (Before Sensei's ban I played Miracles, and then Jund).

Now, I'll test Liliana the Last Hope. I think it makes do a lot of things now. What do u think about LtLH?

Maybe I'll change some cards in my sideboard. About MD, I think that it is very powerful.

[Seraphix]

I wouldn't want Liliana the Last Hope in my maindeck unless I was playing in a small and "known" meta. She's basically a dead card in too many Legacy matchups. I can see her being useful in the SB though, so I'm planning on picking up a copy.

Played Pun Jund for the first time in about 6 months at a few weeklies recently, crushed at some and got crushed at others. With Counter-Top gone from the format I've cut the 4th Decay for a Pulse/K-Command. I'm also determined to play 2 Libraries at this point.

[hovercraft]

People who have cut Confidant, have you tried any number of Tombstalkers/Anglers/Mandrills? Bob is what's keeping me from playing a delve creature or 2.

[tescrin]

The only thing I'd say is that if you add Delve, don't also add Lavaman a they will probably clash.

[CptHaddock]

People who have cut Confidant, have you tried any number of Tombstalkers/Anglers/Mandrills? Bob is what's keeping me from playing a delve creature or 2.

Not sure the deck really needs Anglers since Goyf is probably going to be the biggest creature on the field usually. Tombstalker/Mandrills sounds interesting, I have been in positions where i'm stonewalled by a TNN or tokens and need to get damage through. Delve plays kind of awkwardly with Flayer considering i'm not playing any CA spells main. Maybe in the sideboard? Will try at some point in the future, I kind of only play this deck when I get tired of getting color screwed from playing 4c Loam.

[aromaticity]

Alright so I got some reps in with the deck recently as a re-entry point back into the format. Playing the QBTurtle list except +1 Swamp -1 Foothills MB and +1 Deluge +1 Brutality, -1 Push -1 Chandra SB.

I played a marathon three match series against Merfolk and unsurprisingly I found the MU to feel great. Lost most of my games to just mad flooding, it happens. Oppo also lost due to a mull to four one game. BtB was typically the biggest impact card from them - I played around it whenever possible, and the only match where it got me was one where I only drew one fetchland.

Played a bit against Elves. I'm sure I played fairly poorly here due to inexperience. Much harder to play against than Modern Elves, where they effectively have only eight payoff cards which are easy to interact with. Using 4 Leyline as the GY hate and not playing any Cage was the real pain here. I had GSZ cast against me six times one game and I ended up losing to NO. Lack of PFire also hurts. Overall MU seems bad, but could easily be improved.

Played against Reanimator. Every game but one was a non-game: they killed me T1 on the play preboard, and every other game was won on the back of Leyline. They did hardcast a Chancellor, but I managed to get five mana for BBE to win the race. This MU really showcased why QBTurtle plays Leyline over other hate. Still, I think the versatility of Cage+Surgical might be worth more than Leyline. I guess it's mostly a meta call.

Played two matchess against Burn. Brutality really does a number there. Didn't drop a game. I did draw a Hymn every game and in general ran hot, though. It's easy to see how we lose, but since we already want to play Duress + Brutality in the board, we kind of get to have a solid board plan for free.

Aside from that I played against a variety of UWx midrange/control decks. Most of these matches felt pretty good. This is basically all I played against before updating my list, so I was playing Sylvan MB and a different removal suite. Not really a lot to comment on other than the fact that against Grixis/4c, QB has no direct answers to an Angler. Just Liliana or a 5/6 Goyf (which is hard to hit sometimes vs Delve). I imagine he doesn't board in Leyline against Grixis, seems terrible.


Overall thoughts... I'm kind of mixed on Flayer still. Sometimes it's really sweet, such as in the face of a TNN. However I definitely notice the lack of actual card advantage in the deck and needing to attack to give us card selection can be a downside. Delirium isn't hard to achieve but it's not rare that we don't have it, usually missing creature. When Flayer isn't a 4/4 I have no doubt that it's worse than Bob. I'm going to go back to a 2-1 split of Flayer and Sylvan for the time being. Might end up switch back to Confidants after a while. I think I also want to try +1 Pulse over probably a Decay.

I still feel like I can play both Punishing and non-Punishing Jund and be happy with it. I'll stick with the Fires-free version for now. 4 bolt, running multiple Kommand and the dual-heavy manabase have all felt great.

Regarding the sideboard, I'm fairly sure I will not be playing Leylines locally. I could run into anything and I'm fairly sure Reanimator or other decks that lose to Leyline wont be common enough to outweigh having the slightly more versatile 2-2 Cage/Surgical split. I've also been down on REB/Pyroblast, but don't have a lot of experience playing with the cards. Will continue to try out.


I could use some pointers on how people sideboard with Jund in Legacy. I don't have issues deciding in Modern, but I have tons more experience in that format and I think the boarding decisions are a little more clear-cut. When should I be trimming removal? When should I trim discard and should it be Hymn or TS first? What about Lili? So far when I've felt like I don't want eight discard spells I've been trying to decide if it's worth more to have a 2-for-1 or the more precise TS post board. For example against Merfolk, I found myself pretty torn there but felt I definitely didn't want all eight spells and four Lili and I had a ton to board in (Push, Deluge, 2 Brutality, 2 Pyroblast, E Plague). I think I ended up cutting 5 discard spells, a Lili and a flayer and leaving 3 TS in on the draw and 3 Hymn on the play.

[hovercraft]

Not sure the deck really needs Anglers since Goyf is probably going to be the biggest creature on the field usually. Tombstalker/Mandrills sounds interesting, I have been in positions where i'm stonewalled by a TNN or tokens and need to get damage through. Delve plays kind of awkwardly with Flayer considering i'm not playing any CA spells main. Maybe in the sideboard? Will try at some point in the future, I kind of only play this deck when I get tired of getting color screwed from playing 4c Loam.

Yeah Tombstalker and Hooting Mandrills (and Tasigur too) still have the same pros as Angler (can't be decayed or bolted) but slightly different value distribution, I think any Bob-less Jund decks could fit 1-2 Mandrills in pretty easy, maybe in a Flayer/BBE slot or 8th Hymn/Thoughtseize slot. Tombstalker are a bit harder to cast so not as consistent.

[toffee]

Hi mates, I want to try this list, because in my 2 tournments where I made top8/top4 I saw that Lightning Bolt is a poor card right now.

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library

4 Liliana of the Veil

SIDEBOARD
3 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Diabolic Edict
1 To the Slaughter
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm

I don't want to cut the combo PFire + GotBurnwillows..
I got started from the list of QBTURTLE15, which is making excellent results. In comparison though, I want to play Dark Confidant (there are a lot of Grixis in my meta) and PFire instead of Bolt.
What do u think about the list?

[Seraphix]

Hi mates, I want to try this list, because in my 2 tournments where I made top8/top4 I saw that Lightning Bolt is a poor card right now.

...



I'd never play zero CMC1 removal spells in the 75. Being able to kill their DRS, Delver, Mother of Runes, Glistener Elf, etc. turn 1 on the draw, and kill threats efficiently through Wasteland is very valuable. Sanctum Prelate on 2 also becomes a huge problem.

If I truly thought the CMC1 removal (Bolt, Push) wasn't worth playing I'd play Aggro Loam instead of Jund.

[tomatojim]

I came back to legacy a few months ago after a 2-year-break and decided to run Jund for our small local monthly-legacy.
I went 2:2, beat Infect twice, lost a close match to Mentor Miracles and 0:2 against an 8-Moon-Rabblemaster list with G1 and G2 first turn Blood Moon (could've won G1 if he hadn't had Chalice@2 for my 2 Goyfs as well).

So that's how my list looks like atm:

lands(23):
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Bloodstained Mire
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Badlands
2x Bayou
2x Swamp
1x Forest
4x Wasteland

creatures(15):
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
3x Bloodbraid Elf

spells(22):
4x Thoughtseize
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Liliana of the Veil
3x Punishing Fire
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Fatal Push
2x Lightning Bolt
1x Kolaghan's Command
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Sylvan Library


sideboard(15):
3x Duress
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Pyroblast
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Pithing Needle
1x Golgari Charm
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Scavenging Ooze

I think you want some cmc1 removals, especially for killing important 1drops on the draw, I'm just not that sure how many you actually want and which combination of Bolt/Push is the way to go. Maybe I want that 3rd Decay again...
I like Pulse as a catch-all answer MD, that also gets rid of high cmc creatures like Angler and Tombstalker and tokens.

[Wakkz]

This list seems spicy from Japan.

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD00312SOT/

Also this sideboard tech
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3531

And http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=23171
Thoughs?

[KærvekTheMerciless]

Anyone still testing Jund?

I, recently, have fully committed to the Chalice + Destructive Flow lock. It is such a house against most decks.

Also, I have been having great success with Prowling Serpopard and Harsh Mentor. Serpopard leaves blue players camping counterspells and wishing they were actually usable.

Harsh Mentor, on the other hand, is exactly that, HARSH. Over the course of 3 games vs. DnT, he did well over 20 damage in just triggers. Combined with the aforementioned lock condition, every time someone fetches a basic to get +1 mana in the face of Flow, they Bolt themselves. Teehee. Reanimator loved that, I dropped Mentor t1 with Chrome Mox, passed. He goes, ok.....ouch.....*cough* fetch, thoughtseize? LMFAO. Turn 2 he Reanimates Grizzy putting him at 6....he didn't survive much longer after that.

Serpopard can be seriously aggressive, however I realize the double green plays the same troublesome role as double black or double red. Sometimes the mana just isn't there. But I have noticed lately the deck is functioning alot smoother with the Moxes, and t1 Chalice is just such a blowout against this format.

Will post decklist if requested, but yes, I'm still running Persecutor. Lmfao, he just beats ass.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

[MrFrowny_]

Anyone still testing Jund?

I, recently, have fully committed to the Chalice + Destructive Flow lock. It is such a house against most decks.

Also, I have been having great success with Prowling Serpopard and Harsh Mentor. Serpopard leaves blue players camping counterspells and wishing they were actually usable.

Harsh Mentor, on the other hand, is exactly that, HARSH. Over the course of 3 games vs. DnT, he did well over 20 damage in just triggers. Combined with the aforementioned lock condition, every time someone fetches a basic to get +1 mana in the face of Flow, they Bolt themselves. Teehee. Reanimator loved that, I dropped Mentor t1 with Chrome Mox, passed. He goes, ok.....ouch.....*cough* fetch, thoughtseize? LMFAO. Turn 2 he Reanimates Grizzy putting him at 6....he didn't survive much longer after that.

Serpopard can be seriously aggressive, however I realize the double green plays the same troublesome role as double black or double red. Sometimes the mana just isn't there. But I have noticed lately the deck is functioning alot smoother with the Moxes, and t1 Chalice is just such a blowout against this format.

Will post decklist if requested, but yes, I'm still running Persecutor. Lmfao, he just beats ass.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

Interesting... can I see your list?

I played Jund for awhile but quit about a year ago but I'm thinking about getting back into it now that miracles is gone.

[KærvekTheMerciless]

Interesting... can I see your list?

I played Jund for awhile but quit about a year ago but I'm thinking about getting back into it now that miracles is gone.Pm'd you.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

[Claymore]

Also interested, as I picked up a set of foil Destructive Flows when I saw some interesting lists awhile back. Don't have the Chrome moxes, but I'm sure Mox Diamond would work about the same with Loam.

[RobNC]

This list seems spicy from Japan.

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD00312SOT/

Also this sideboard tech
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3531

And http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=23171
Thoughs?

I put Delirium in my sideboard for my Grixis control deck as anti Marit Lage tech. I thought it'd be good against Reanimator too, but the lifelink on Griselbrand makes them just gain back the 7 damage they took.

[KærvekTheMerciless]

Also interested, as I picked up a set of foil Destructive Flows when I saw some interesting lists awhile back. Don't have the Chrome moxes, but I'm sure Mox Diamond would work about the same with Loam.

Creatures(13)
2 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Tombstalker
3 Blazing Specter
3 Prowling Serpopard
3 Harsh Mentor

Enchantments(5)
3 Destructive Flow
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers(4)
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast

Artifact(7)
3 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void

Instants(8)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Terminate
2 Reroute

Sorceries(2)
2 Maelstrom Pulse

Lands (21)
3 Swamp
3 Mountain
2 Forest
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Badlands
1 Bayou

Sideboard (15)
2 Ashen Rider
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Seal of Doom
3 Golgari Charm

I double checked my board last night, I could not seem to remember moving Pyroblast for some reason.

[KærvekTheMerciless]

I put Delirium in my sideboard for my Grixis control deck as anti Marit Lage tech. I thought it'd be good against Reanimator too, but the lifelink on Griselbrand makes them just gain back the 7 damage they took.

As far as the list, the spice is basically a sprinkle of paprika in the form of Chandra, Tarfire is just a Shock. As far as those two....I'd run Backlash, it has Darigaaz on the picture and thematically fits better with the rest of the Invasion block cards I run. *chuckle*

[RobNC]

Not stuck on any of these numbers yet, but I was tossing around the idea of playing this at our weekly next week:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Grim Flayer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge

1 Sylvan Library
4 Destructive Flow

1 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills

Manabase isn't 100% set; I want to lean heavily on basics for obvious reasons but realize I need fetches to not get color screwed. One of each dual so any fetch can get any color if required. Considering Ghost Quarter instead of Wasteland to snipe whatever basics opponent may have (or help me fetch out my own in the face of Flow) but that could backfire.

Also: Grim Flayer or Dark Confidant? Running 4 BBE with Bob seems risky, but I'm not sure how reliably I would be able to turn on Delirium for Flayer.

[MrDude]

Hello all,
I first time poster in the site. I am going to SCG Dallas and I'm planing on taking Jund with me to play as the Legacy player for our team.

I wanted to talk about side boards in the new meta, what we should really have or not have. And also, Blood Sun something we could use vs. Lands?

[Jsang]

Hello all,
I first time poster in the site. I am going to SCG Dallas and I'm planing on taking Jund with me to play as the Legacy player for our team.

I wanted to talk about side boards in the new meta, what we should really have or not have. And also, Blood Sun something we could use vs. Lands?

Imho, jund needs combo hates, a mix of duress, surgical and pithing needle is good. Regarding lands hate, I prefer gaveyard hate vs lands and edict vs marit lage. And we have wasteland serving the primary defense.

[KærvekTheMerciless]

Combo hate. Lots of it. You can never have enough combo hate. Especially for BS like Show And Tell. It's our worst matchup, period.

And as far as Lands goes.....well, Destructive Flow can be a house against Lands, all you have to do is keep the Explorations off the table. Flow will pretty much handle the whole show.

Also, I'm running a slightly different list. Hopefully tonight's testing fares well.

Maindeck changes:
-2 Tombstalker, +2 Dark Confidant
-3 Blazing Specter, +3 Scab-Clan Berserker
-2 Maelstrom Pulse, +2 Hymn to Tourach
-1 Prowling Serpopard, +1 Harsh Mentor
-2 Reroute, +2 Kolaghan's Command
-1 Volrath's Stronghold, +1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
-1 Golgari Charm
-3 Seal of Doom
+2 Rakdos Charm
+2 Maelstrom Pulse

[zebhillard]

Very standard list, very small sample size. Lost in the Top 4 of a 4 Round event with a final record of 3-2-1.
10 Fetch, 2 Bayou, 2 Badland, 2 Swamp, 1 Mountain, 1 Forest, 4 Wasteland
4x DRS, BBE, Bob, Goyf, Hymn, TSeiz, LoTV
3x Bolt, Decay
2x K Command
1x Toxic Deluge, LtLH

SB:
3x Surgical
2x Golgari Charm, DEdict, CBrutality
1x Sylvan, Maelstrom Pulse, REB, Loam, EE, Choke

Lowest point of the day is pulling a deck box out of my backpack round one, shuffling, not bothering to verify the deck past the basic land I saw, and then presenting. When I drew 7 I realized I had pulled my modern deck from the previous event I was in. Judge call, game loss, on to game two. My opponent is on greedy three color delver and I proceed to Waste, DRS, Hymn, Bolt him out of game 'two'. Game 'three' with SB it becomes much easier and he fetches basic Island. I kill everything else, GCharm away Elemental tokens off a BBE Cascade, and then Choke him out.
SB+ Choke, GCharm x2, Maelstrom Pulse, REB, EE
SB- Trim discard, K Command

Round two is BUG Value with Leovold, Liliana, Jace, Strix, all the hits. I steamroll him game one, then he returns the favor game two and three with active Jace+Lili and Sylvan.
SB+ Choke, REB, EE, GCharm, DEdict, Loam
SB- trim BBE, cut 4x Hymn on the draw, 2x on the play, K Command

Round 3 another 3 or maybe 4 color control pile. The game is very similar to round one (without the Judge call) except in game 3 my opponent locks himself out with Blood Moon trying to cut me off Black spells. I BBE into Maelstrom Pulse to blow up multiple Strix and beat him for 3 a turn.
SB+ Choke, REB, Brutality, Loam
SB- Trim Lili, Hymn on the draw (trim on the play),

Round 4 is an ID into top 8, and top 8 is BUG Value from Round 2. The games go very opposite the way they did the first time. G1 I blow out multiple TNN with the MD Deluge and get Liliana ticking up with her ladyfriend BBE serving damage. Game 2 there is a lot of back and forth and we both have active Liliana of the Veil, but I resolve Sylvan, pay four, lead a Thoughtseize into a Choke and lock him down to just one tropical island for mana. He has active Jace,but Sylvan gets me to MPulse eventually and I take the game while he's drawing Hymns and I've sides all mine out.
SB--Same as round 2.

T4 is Zoo, Naya with Steppe Lynx, Goyf, Bolt, Chain Lightning, Hooting Mandrills, Narnam Renegade, Ghor Clan Rampager, Nacatl. Basically a Who's Who is cheap beats.
I get game one with an insane amount of removal for his creatures ending in active Liliana. Games two and three he absolutely crushed me with too many threats I didn't have answers to.
SB+DEdict, Pulse, EE
SB-Trimmed discard, KCommand, BBE

I'm still not 100% sold on BBE and half of the day wanted to go back to the Grim Flayer list I've run previously. Flipping it off Bob feels even more miserable than Chandra or some other long term value card despite the ability to cascade into better things. I'm likely going to end up putting more work on it though, because I have to eventually settle on something for Worcester in March.

[Jsang]

Very standard list, very small sample size. Lost in the Top 4 of a 4 Round event with a final record of 3-2-1.
10 Fetch, 2 Bayou, 2 Badland, 2 Swamp, 1 Mountain, 1 Forest, 4 Wasteland
4x DRS, BBE, Bob, Goyf, Hymn, TSeiz, LoTV
3x Bolt, Decay
2x K Command
1x Toxic Deluge, LtLH

SB:
3x Surgical
2x Golgari Charm, DEdict, CBrutality
1x Sylvan, Maelstrom Pulse, REB, Loam, EE, Choke

....

A nice read, thank you for the report.

Re Grim Flayer v BBE, much as not stellar as BBE looks, it is better than Grim Flayer imho. Grim is too weak as a legacy card. It does not gain you any card advantage which is important to build up a winning situation for a midrange deck.

Observed there is no Punishing fire suite in your deck. Had you had it, you may find the zoo matchup more manageable. And I think it is the very reason why Jund would out-grind pile and miracle.

[zebhillard]

A nice read, thank you for the report.

Re Grim Flayer v BBE, much as not stellar as BBE looks, it is better than Grim Flayer imho. Grim is too weak as a legacy card. It does not gain you any card advantage which is important to build up a winning situation for a midrange deck. Observed there is no Punishing fire suite in your deck. Had you had it, you may find the zoo matchup more manageable. And I think it is the very reason why Jund would out-grind pile and miracle.

Not a problem. I'm still settling in on what to play in Worcester, but it's looking like Good ole Jund will be the call.

I've played Grim Flayer before in a no-BBE, 2 Painful Truths, 2 Bob 2 Flayer list that operated with MD Sylvan, Punishing Fire, and a miser's Tarfire. Trample is an underrated ability in the world of TNN we currently live in, and the ability to set up Bobs for the following turn as to not take damage off the reveals is an upside.

But. Sometimes, it's just a 2/2 with selection, and other times it just dies to Fatal Push.

Punishing Fire wouldn't have really helped against the Zoo match, though I can see the point. All of the threats were X/3 at any point in time, and the biggest one would have taken two Fire hits to kill (Mandrills). I think that's just too slow to work as a plan for Zoo, but I've been proven wrong before. Long games can definitely be trumped by Grove/Fire, but the skewing you have to do with your lands to support Grove never sat well with me after round three or four.

[Jsang]

Not a problem. I'm still settling in on what to play in Worcester, but it's looking like Good ole Jund will be the call.

I've played Grim Flayer before in a no-BBE, 2 Painful Truths, 2 Bob 2 Flayer list that operated with MD Sylvan, Punishing Fire, and a miser's Tarfire. Trample is an underrated ability in the world of TNN we currently live in, and the ability to set up Bobs for the following turn as to not take damage off the reveals is an upside.

But. Sometimes, it's just a 2/2 with selection, and other times it just dies to Fatal Push.

Punishing Fire wouldn't have really helped against the Zoo match, though I can see the point. All of the threats were X/3 at any point in time, and the biggest one would have taken two Fire hits to kill (Mandrills). I think that's just too slow to work as a plan for Zoo, but I've been proven wrong before. Long games can definitely be trumped by Grove/Fire, but the skewing you have to do with your lands to support Grove never sat well with me after round three or four.

My experience with grim flayer was really bad. I find this underwhelming because 1. it is a 2cc 2/2 most of the time and provides selection only after it can deal combat damage to the opponent and 2. when you are behind, you may rather have a stronger blocker, which means the selection only work when you are ahead.

You spotted on that the inclusion of punishing package renders the mana base even more fragile. My reason to play jund, over other brainstorm midrange decks, apart from personal perference, is the ability to out-grind, out-value your opponents. I feel difficult to convince myself to play jund over decks like pile if the package being excluded.

My current list,

4 DRS
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 BBE

3 LotV
1 LoLH

2 Sylvan Library

3 Decay, Bolt, P.Fire
1 K. Command
1 Diabolic Edict
3 TS, Hymn

3 Wasteland
4 Grove
1 Swamp Forest
4 Badlands
2 Bayou
8 fetches

SB
1 Needle, Golgari Charm, Pulse, Edict, Chandra ToD, Choke, Toxic
3 Duress, Surgical
2 pyroblast

My meta filled with delver, DNT, combos and chalice decks.

[KærvekTheMerciless]

Finally got to play with the changes I made. Took bloody long enough.

Harsh Mentor is a god damned landmine. Seriously think he is completely underappreciated.

Scab-Clan Berserker is just silly as hell. Double R can be an owwie, but our deck specializes in plowing blockers flat. So renown has basically always been on. But the psuedo-Chalice his trigger provides is just plain bonkers. He renowned in 7 of the 14 games I played (the other 7 he didn't show), and within 2 turns they scoop em up.

Prowling Serpopard has some potential, but I feel it may not be in this deck. But uncounterable Bobs and Percys are just unforgivably nasty.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

[Mr. Safety]

Dabbling around with Jund instead of Junk lately, hoping to get some good feedback.

1) What's the plan against Sneak/Show? Needle/Duress/Surgical out of the board?
2) What's the plan for storm? This seems like a weak matchup if we don't curve Thoughtseize into Hymn.

Thanks in advance. Long-time Junk player, and I'm always looking for janky shit to add to BGx midrange decks. I really like PFire right now, and I'm trying a weird hybrid with 4x Hexmage/Crop Rotation + 1x Depths/Stage. It subs in for Tarmogoyf, 2x Wasteland, and shaves off slots on some of the other cards like Hymn and Bolt.

[Jsang]

Dabbling around with Jund instead of Junk lately, hoping to get some good feedback.

1) What's the plan against Sneak/Show? Needle/Duress/Surgical out of the board?
2) What's the plan for storm? This seems like a weak matchup if we don't curve Thoughtseize into Hymn.

Thanks in advance. Long-time Junk player, and I'm always looking for janky shit to add to BGx midrange decks. I really like PFire right now, and I'm trying a weird hybrid with 4x Hexmage/Crop Rotation + 1x Depths/Stage. It subs in for Tarmogoyf, 2x Wasteland, and shaves off slots on some of the other cards like Hymn and Bolt.

1) I would side-in 3 duress, 2 pyroblast, 1 Needle and 1 golgari charm (2 if having 2 otherwise 1 surgical) for 2 tarmo, 2 BBE, 3 punish, 1 decay

2) Depends on ANT or TES
ANT: duress, pyroblast and surgical for combination of tarmo, punish, decay
TES: duress, pyroblast, and golgari charm

Both SnS and Storm are bad matahups even 15 slots devoted to these matchups. This deck is good at grinding but bad in close out the game quick while disrupting your opponents.

Regarding the hybrid, I cannot comment since I have no experience, but I expect it won't do the job better than Turbo Depth but would undoubtedly weaken our (already) fragile mana base.

[Mr. Safety]

1) I would side-in 3 duress, 2 pyroblast, 1 Needle and 1 golgari charm (2 if having 2 otherwise 1 surgical) for 2 tarmo, 2 BBE, 3 punish, 1 decay

2) Depends on ANT or TES
ANT: duress, pyroblast and surgical for combination of tarmo, punish, decay
TES: duress, pyroblast, and golgari charm

Both SnS and Storm are bad matahups even 15 slots devoted to these matchups. This deck is good at grinding but bad in close out the game quick while disrupting your opponents.

Regarding the hybrid, I cannot comment since I have no experience, but I expect it won't do the job better than Turbo Depth but would undoubtedly weaken our (already) fragile mana base.

The only concession I make on the mana-base is to cut 2x Wasteland for 1x Depths/1x Stage. The mana would be essentially the same, albeit slightly different because I include 2 Urborgs so Grove of the Burnwillows isn't so lackluster.

[zebhillard]

Another month, another small event Top 4. 5 Rounds with some interesting matches.

This month I went to Punishing Jund using the following:
4x DRS, Goyf, Bob, Lili, TSeize
3x BBE, Bolt, PFire, Hymn
2x KCommand, ADecay
1x LtLH

4x BSMire, VCata, Grove, Wasteland
2xBadland, Bayou, Swamp
1xForest

SB:
4x Leyline of Void
2x CBrutality, EPlague,
1x Edict, Choke, Loam, Library, REB, Deluge, MPulse

Overall: 4-2-Split Top 4

Round 1: Turbo Depths (2-1)
Round 2: Turbo Mill (2-0)
Round 3: Stoneblade (2-0)
Round 4: Sneak and Show (2-1)
Round 5: Czech Pile (1-2)

Top 8: Czech Pile (2-1)
Redemption.

Top 4: Intentional Draw
The Top 4 was Manaless Dredge, Belcher, a deck with Force of Will, and me. My buddy was playing my Belcher 75 and we were paired in the Top 4, so we agreed to split and Force of Will guy was happy to split against Manaless. If the pairing went the other direction I'm sure we would have played it out and had Belcher vs Jund to split in the finals.

Sideboarding was fairly standard but I wish I had gone with 3 Surgical and +1 Library instead of 4 Layline, but there was a huge amount of Dredge for the monthly so I called into a more solid solution against it. The only time Punishing Fire came into play was against Stoneblade where it became "+1 Liliana, Opponent Discards a Card and Gains 1 Life."

[NegatorITA]

have you guys tryed out the list that made top4 in the mkm series in rome?
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=27011&iddeck=214034
I've, it's a punishing fire less list, and I liked it a lot:
When it curves out like TA: t1 deathrite t2 waste + hymn T3 whaterver clock, it's pretty powerful (and nope, it does it more consistently than the grove list)
when you double hymn them without mana issues feels good too!
I've only swapped one surgical in the board for a second cage and a pulse maindeck over the terminate (need more powerful spell in my opinion, in order to answer PW better)
Overall I've liked the list, not saying It's the best, but for sure it's not as awfull as I thought it would be.

[Raffaele191]

have you guys tryed out the list that made top4 in the mkm series in rome?
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=27011&iddeck=214034
I've, it's a punishing fire less list, and I liked it a lot:
When it curves out like TA: t1 deathrite t2 waste + hymn T3 whaterver clock, it's pretty powerful (and nope, it does it more consistently than the grove list)
when you double hymn them without mana issues feels good too!
I've only swapped one surgical in the board for a second cage and a pulse maindeck over the terminate (need more powerful spell in my opinion, in order to answer PW better)
Overall I've liked the list, not saying It's the best, but for sure it's not as awfull as I thought it would be.

Hey all! Thanks for the kind words, appreciate!
I will be piloting the deck in GP Birmingham and I was trying to figure out the best sideboard plan for what I expect the field will look like.
Do you guys have any IN/OUT sideboard plan I can look at so to compare it with mine?
Thanks in advance :)

[Cryoclasm]

I liked Raffaele's list a lot!
Do you guys can give me a hint, what to replace Chains of Mephistopheles with? I was thinking about Dampening Sphere or Choke since miracles and storm are a thing in my meta.
On the other hand, OminSneak also gives us a lot of trouble.

[zebhillard]

I liked Raffaele's list a lot!
Do you guys can give me a hint, what to replace Chains of Mephistopheles with? I was thinking about Dampening Sphere or Choke since miracles and storm are a thing in my meta.
On the other hand, OminSneak also gives us a lot of trouble.

Choke is never really a dead card in the SB. If you're having trouble with a large number of Show and Tell, maybe Ashen Riders. You'll never actually cast them, but they're there as a hope and dream.

[Raffaele191]

I liked Raffaele's list a lot!
Do you guys can give me a hint, what to replace Chains of Mephistopheles with? I was thinking about Dampening Sphere or Choke since miracles and storm are a thing in my meta.
On the other hand, OminSneak also gives us a lot of trouble.

TLDR: Sideboard choices, GP Birmingham report, sideboard plan. If you're going to face a lot of storm and miracles damping sphere is a good card versus the first (but they can handle it with Chain of vapor and similar cards), worse vs miracles. I'd go for Choke, maybe.

I had troubles in deciding what to play in SB for GP Birmingham, I feel the cards the deck needs may be:
1/2 Chains of Mephistopheles for almost every blue deck and elves
2/3 Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction (mandatory)
2 Diabolic Edict (at least) for all the Merit Lage decks and annoying creatures like TNN and huge eldrazis/hazoret/angler. I have considered 1 MD to improve DD matchups but Terminate feels better overall (mostly for Delver mu when tnn or angler are paired with delvers or elemental tokens)
1 Toxic Deluge
1/2 Pithing Needle, since we lack blue cantrips
1 Liliana, The Last Hope
1 Damping Sphere
1 Choke
1/2 Golgari Charm
1/2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Duress
2 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Life from the loam
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

I decided in the end to play the exact same maindeck list, after considering switching 1 kolaghan's command for 1 Liliana TLH, and go for these 15 in the sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pithing Needle
1 Liliana, The Last Hope
1 Damping Sphere

Here's my run.
Turn 1 UW Humility Control. (L) Joe Lossett's decklist, 4 Rest in Peace maindeck. I mulled a lot, ended up 1-2 for my opponent playing Rest in Peace into Humilty into Moat in g3.
Turn 2 Czech Pile. 1-2. (L) Mulled a lot.
Turn 3 BUG Food Chain. (W) 2-0, the deck finally started to play.
Turn 4 Reanimator. (L) Nut draws for my opponent, after discards he topdecked an Unmask taking away my diabolic edict, not much I could do.
Turn 5 Lands. (W) 2-1, he made few mistakes.
Turn 6 BUG Nic Fit. (W) 2-0, I felt I was always ahead.
Turn 7 BUG Control. (W) 2-1. Grindy games, good opponent. The second Chains of Mephistopheles locks him out of game 3 until I find more threats to deploy.
Turn 8 Reanimator. (L) 1-2. Game 3 on the Draw I had Surgical DRS HTT Liliana 2 lands, he reveals chancellor, duresses my surgical and goes off next turn. Never had a chance to cast Liliana after that.

Ended up with a mediocre 4-4, really felt the lack of blue cantrips to fix initial hands avoiding mulligans to 5 and to dig for answers in post-sideboard games.

This was the sideboard plan I made up for the event. I'd be happy if you could share your thoughts and considerations. :smile:
Sneak and show
- 3 bbe 3 decay 3 bolt 1 push 1 terminate 1 deluge 1 s library
+ 3 surgical 3 pyroblast 2 chains 2 edict 1 damp sphere 2 p needle

Storm
- 3 bbe 3 decay 1 push 1 terminate 1 s library
+ 3 surgical 3 pyroblast 2 chains 1 damp sphere

Dredge
- 4 liliana otv 4 tourach
+ 3 surgical 2 p needle 1 deluge 2 edict

Elves
- 3 bbe 3 lotv 1 s library
+ 2 chains 1 deluge 2 p needle 1 liliana tlh 1 damp sphere

Reanimator
- 2 k command 1 push 1 deluge 3 bbe
+ 3 surgical 2 edict 2 p needle

Depths
- 3 bbe 1 decay 1 push 1 terminate 1 k command
+ 3 surgical 2 edict 2 p needle

Infect
- 3 bbe 1 tourach 1 deluge
+ 3 pyroblast 1 p needle 1 damp sphere

Death and Taxes
- 3 tseize 1 tourach 1 liliana otv
+ 1 liliana tlh 2 edict 2 p needle

Grixis Delver
- 3 bbe 3 tseize 1 s library
+ 3 pyroblast 2 chains 1 deluge 1 p needle
(On the draw - 2 liliana otv + 2 edict)

Miracles
- 2 k command 1 push 1 terminate 1 s library
+ 2 chains 3 pyroblast

Lands
- 3 tseize 1 push 1 terminate 1 deluge 1 bolt
+ 2 edict 2 p needle 3 surgical

BUG Control/Czech Pile/Team America
Didn't have an actual plan. Boarded in 2/3 pyroblast and 2 chains almost always + deluge if I saw baleful strix and leovolds. boarded out Tseize on the draw, s library, 1/2 decay and 1 liliana otv at times. Boarded out hymn when I saw wastelands (since the plan is to avoid getting behind turn 1 and 2 fetching for swamp and forest basics).

Hope this was helpful food for thoughts. :cool:

[hovercraft]

Thanks for the detailed report! Always great to see people playing Jund.

My sideboard lately is similar (though I don't have any Chains :() something like this:
3 Surgical
1 Diabolic Edict (I have 1 main as well, no Push or Terminate)
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Liliana TLH (3 Veil, 1 TLH maindeck)
2 Pyroblast
2 Damping Sphere
2 Pithing Needle
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Golgari Charm
1 Scavenging Ooze


Death and Taxes
- 3 tseize 1 tourach 1 liliana otv
+ 1 liliana tlh 2 edict 2 p needle

I feel like Jund wants some Tseize vs DnT doesn't it? Can grab Batterskull etc. I guess the edicts are to get around Mother of Runes? Needles and Lili TLH make sense. I would bring in your 2nd Toxic here too here since DnT can flood the board with X/1s


Miracles
- 2 k command 1 push 1 terminate 1 s library
+ 2 chains 3 pyroblast

I wouldn't side out Sylvan Library in grindy matches like Miracles/Grixis/Czech. That's your only cantrip-like effect. Every turn you have it on the battlefield you are gaining incremental advantage, so the longer the game the more value it brings. I play 1 Sylvan and 1 Mirri's Guile in my list. A card like Oath of Nissa can act as a cantrip if you want more, but it can't grab instants/sorceries/etc. Can help with early land drops though.

I would also bring in your Liliana the last hope in any long grindy match like Miracles/Czech/etc as well. Can kill Snapcasters, Strix and if you can manage to make an emblem it is very hard to lose after that.

On Storm:
Often times in G2/G3 I find storm players bring in Empty the Warrens. Might be worth bringing in the 2nd Toxic Deluge if you think this is the case.

[Raffaele191]

Hey there! I really like the diabolic edict md, since it's an additional answer to otherwise almost-unkillable things pre side (merit lage token, nemesis, etc.) but being it the 1x doesn't get me to jump in enthusiasm. I'll try it out though.
Where did you get to sb sc. ooze in?



I wouldn't side out Sylvan Library in grindy matches like Miracles/Grixis/Czech. That's your only cantrip-like effect. Every turn you have it on the battlefield you are gaining incremental advantage, so the longer the game the more value it brings. I play 1 Sylvan and 1 Mirri's Guile in my list. A card like Oath of Nissa can act as a cantrip if you want more, but it can't grab instants/sorceries/etc. Can help with early land drops though.


The reason why it's Library being completely anti-sinergic with Chains. Do you think Library has an edge over that?



On Storm:
Often times in G2/G3 I find storm players bring in Empty the Warrens. Might be worth bringing in the 2nd Toxic Deluge if you think this is the case.

Completely agreed! Thanks for the advice ;)

[hovercraft]

Hey there! I really like the diabolic edict md, since it's an additional answer to otherwise almost-unkillable things pre side (merit lage token, nemesis, etc.) but being it the 1x doesn't get me to jump in enthusiasm. I'll try it out though.
Where did you get to sb sc. ooze in?



The reason why it's Library being completely anti-sinergic with Chains. Do you think Library has an edge over that?



Completely agreed! Thanks for the advice ;)

Right I forgot about Chains. Maybe since you play 2 Chains, consider Mirris Guile over Library? It's not card advantage but it does help you dig deeper. The trigger stacks better with Dark Confidant too since its on upkeep not draw phase.

How do you like the 1 toxic deluge main deck? I've toyed with that idea as well.

I just have Scooze as an extra creature in the SB against matches with lots of removal or graveyard decks. My main deck is still a bit different than yours, I run Groves and Punishing fire, and I sold my Goyfs a while back so I run Grim Flayer instead. Sometimes I need extra creatures since I lack big Goyfs.

[jeffieog]

Choke is never really a dead card in the SB. If you're having trouble with a large number of Show and Tell, maybe Ashen Riders. You'll never actually cast them, but they're there as a hope and dream.

If you want an answer to Show & Tell you can actually cast, try Confusion in the Ranks. It also has merits against Land strategies as you'd steal their Marit Lage when it etb's. Not too shabby for 2 terrible matchups imo.

[Greven777]

Following for a long time, first time posting.
I tested Grim Flayer for about a year, because i was disappointed of Bob for a long time (I just killed myself way to often). And with Jund it always feels like I am loosing because of the lack of candrips, so I can't find the right answers in time.
Now I am stuck with a list that tries to be as consistent as possible.

Main:

15 Creatures:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
2 Grim Flayer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Bloodbraid Elf

23 Spells:

1 Fatal Push
1 Mirri's Guile
4 Tarfire
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sylvan Library
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

22 Lands:

3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills


15 Sideboard:

2 Duress
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dismember
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

About my choices:

Creatures:
Bob - I got back to Bob, because he is just to good. And with only 2 BBE and the Grim Flayers + Library + Guile I don't get that much damage anymore.
Grim Flayer - I started with 4 but trimmed them down to 2. With the Tarfires I get to delirium quite fast and consistent. So most of the time he is a 4/4 trample that filters my library while fueling my graveyard. He is good against TNN and I don't mind swing him into a Strix just to clear the board for the goyfs, get in some damage and filter my next draw.
BBE - Trimmed them to 2, because of Bob and I recognised I board them out really often.

Spells:
1 Fatal Push - just the 5th cmc 1 removal against drs or delver
4 Tarfire - Makes Goyf bigger than Angler and Reality Smasher, gets Delirium activated and kills every creature Lightning Bolt kills except of Leovold
Guile + Library - My non-blue candrips
4 TS + 4 Hymn - Combo is our worst enemy and these cards are the only ones getting the job done main

Lands:
Got down to 22 because I don't get screwed as often since I don't play Groves anymore + Guile/Library/Flayer


I am looking forward to your thoughts about my list.
That's my newest configuration but I couldn't test it really often in the last two months. But I got second at a small tournament with about 24 players (I was really lucky with the almost non-combo-meta).

[Grizzlenasty]

Can't bear the silence anymore... is there any way to keep Jund alive post DRS?

I just can't convince myself, that Scavenging ooze will do the trick, like it did in modern.

A simple manadork like BoP, also seems kind of misplaced.

So what are your ideas? What would you do to the deck, to keep it somewhat playable?

[Tee]

Played Jund in a local Tourney just before DRS got banned. Classic list of 23 lands with 4DRS/gofy/Bob/BBE/Thoughseize/Hymn and 3Bolt/Decay/Pfire/LOTV and 1 sylvan library.


2-1 win with wins against Rug Delver, imperial painter and lost narrowly to BR reanimator.

DRS is really a hard void to fill and i am afraid Ooze might be a necessity mainboard with the resurgence of RUG Delver and reanimator.

I would probably test with a mixture of 3 arbor elves and 2 bromat Courer for a start with at 2 surgical extraction 1 ooze mainboard, cut 1 land, 1 BBE,1 Bolt, 1 thoughtseize 4 DRS then test with 4 Chrome Mox and mainboard Chains of Mephistopheles.

[Nopziiemoo]

@Tee i really like the idea of the Bomat Courier, i dont own any but i will try to get some and test this out.

My alternative currently is:

4 DR's out.
2 Grim Lavamancer (Could be Bomat Curier)
2 Scaviging Ooze

I have been at my local LGS for a while so i dont know how it will pan out. But im still deadset on running my 4 (maybe cut to 3) Bloodbraid elf's they have saved me to many times not to. I am also running the Punishing Fire combo aswell especially if RUG Delver comes back. Also the main Chains of Mephistopheles i like aswell.

I will come back when i've run some tests, but vacation time is comming up so in a few weeks.

[Fynd]

Just a few random thoughts. From the B&R announcements I was thinking a lot in the future of the meta. Deathrite was released in october 2012, Knight of the reliquary, on the other hand was released in 2009.

I mention Knight because I start checking the meta previous Deathrite release and you can check that the decks at these time were: Threshold, deathblades, Team america, Reanimator, etc... and the more close to Jund was Jund Loam.
Is not a big surprise that the top 4 previous october 2012 matches a lot with the more active threads in The Source forums.

As the 4c (or more) decks will be punished, there will be less graveyard hate maindeck and the mana denial seems one of the ways to go, maybe focusing the actual Jund to a more "loamish" version could be one option.

Jund version has a more stable manabase than the 4c loam, and has very good pairings vs. counter decks, and last, most of the Jund decks already use LftL in sideboards and we can use most of the cards.

[Seraphix]

@Tee i really like the idea of the Bomat Courier, i dont own any but i will try to get some and test this out.

My alternative currently is:

4 DR's out.
2 Grim Lavamancer (Could be Bomat Curier)
2 Scaviging Ooze

I have been at my local LGS for a while so i dont know how it will pan out. But im still deadset on running my 4 (maybe cut to 3) Bloodbraid elf's they have saved me to many times not to. I am also running the Punishing Fire combo aswell especially if RUG Delver comes back. Also the main Chains of Mephistopheles i like aswell.

I will come back when i've run some tests, but vacation time is comming up so in a few weeks.

Punishing Fire likely has to go from this deck. It puts a lot of strain on the manabase which is further exacerbated by the loss of DRS.

[Mr. Safety]

Punishing Fire likely has to go from this deck. It puts a lot of strain on the manabase which is further exacerbated by the loss of DRS.

Unless they trim down on Groves, include Crop Rotation, and synergize with Tireless Tracker for additional land drops/clues. Seems doable; difficult, but doable. Tracker is rising in the ranks of powerful creatures to build around in legacy. I know I'd be pretty happy getting a BBE > Tracker.

[Wakkz]

News from Japan.
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD9222K/

[GodzillaBig]

News from Japan.
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD9222K/

Personally, I don't like Mirri's Guile, though I understand why it's in the deck. I'm going to try this list but swap the Libraries in for draw power and swap a Grove for a Taiga. Overall I like the list and what it's trying to do.

GB

[Raffaele191]

News from Japan.
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD9222K/

“Thank you God for japanese people.”

[Tee]

First post ban FnM tourney.
Played with 22 lands, played 4 surgical extraction 3 ooze and 3 grim flayer. Took out BBE and DRS and a library.

2 win 1 draw against RUG delver, grixis control and DnT. Came back and outgrind a thalia equipped with a battleskull on 48 life! I played extraction cos anticipating the come back of reanimator.

Finally done up a list i am more satisifed with. Surgical + Ooze synergise with heavy discard plan and good against graveyard and RUG Delver. Grim flayer sygnergise with bob and gofy and is a pseudo library. Took out BBE and reduce land count to 22.

Going forward, will test some BBE with grim flayer and add 1 or 2 more lands. Not sure Mirri's guile is good enough.

[Raffaele191]

Played the tweaked japanese guy's decklist yesterday at my local fnm (28 players, quite a number). I expected metagame to be favorable, (turned out 5 death and taxes were in the tournament) so jumped in and that's the run.
Match 1 vs UW Dreadnought. W 2-1 (a cool list with Torpor Orbs with legs and Phyrexian Dreadnought).
Match 2 vs Burning Show. W 2-0 (lots of discard).
Match 3 vs Burning Show. L 0-2
Match 4 vs Aggro Loam. W 2-0 (Surgical Extraction everything)
Match 5 vs Lands ID
Top 8 vs Aggro Loam. W 2-1 (Surgical Extraction everything)
Top 4 vs Goblins. W 2-0 (I had nuts hand in game1 and nuts draws in game 2 while he mana screwed)

Pretty happy with the deck for how it played out, didn't think it could be even close to playable after drs got banned. But I managed to win even unfavourable matchups so, I'll keep giving it shots once in awhile!

[Tee]

Played this list over the week in 2 events
3 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Grim Flayer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Bloodbraid Elf

1 Fatal Push
2 Mirri's Guile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Groove of the burnwillows

2 Duress
2 Pyroblast
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Golgari Charm
1 lilana the last hope
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Backlash
1 Ancient Grudge

2-1 Jeskai Delver
Won by a hymning both daze out of opponents hand and burn a stoneforge. Gofy and Ooze did the job thereafter. Lose next game due to landflood despite landing a Mirri's Guile. Game 3 turn 2 Carpet of flowers and turn 3 Bloodbraid into liliana won the game.

2-1 Miracles
Classic thoughtseize into Hymn into Liliana was too much for miracles to bear. Game 2 was outgrinded despite me having a Mirri's guile and a Carpet of flowers. Ooze and Gofy was plowed and game was over when opponent landed a Teferi hero of domanira. Game 3 i opened with a thoughtseize and surgical extraced a brainstorm and proceeded next with hymn and surgical away a Swords to Plowshares. Opponent never recovered from there.

2-1 Death and Taxes
Bolted a turn 1 Mother of Runes and hymn away 2 of his creatures left him with no much plays in first 3 turns. Grim flayer and Gofy took away from there. Kept a dodgy hand with Ooze, gofy, K.command and a BBE with no removals and was beat down by thaila, wingmare and Blighting and my lands ported and wastelanded. Game 3 i managed to K.command a ather vial at 3 and toxic deulge opponents 4 creatures with lilana the last hope for the win.

2-0 Death and taxes
Both games i won simply as i kept a removal heavy hand. Ancient grudge came out in game 2.

0-2 Mana Dredge.
Overrunned by zombies despite surgical extracting a ichorid. This is the matchup where i need a tormord's Crypt.

2-1 Blue Stompy
Thoughtseize and hymn controlled his hand and Liliana killed hid serendit effret. Opponent chalice at one was limited as most of my hand was 2 cmc. Game 2 was met with a back to basics and a TNN carrying a sword of fire and ice. Game 3 I had answers for all his threats and managed to grind him down with Bob, Gofy, Ooze and Flayer. Pyroblast for his FoW, goglari charm for his Tnn, abrupt decay and ancient grudge for his equipments, wastelands for hid ancient tomb.

Overall, think Jund is still pretty much playable post ban but think Jund is becoming more of a customised and metadeck with mainboard gradually becoming more flexible. I feel Jund need a minimim of 10-12 1 drop as there are too many 2 drops in Jund. Possible builds are heavy discard and 4 lilana of the veil with 22 lands or a Bloodbraid elves list with 23-24 lands. I was very reluctant to drop Dark confidant with the Japanese list as he is the deck's main draw source and can still synergise with Mirri's guile. Grim Flayer was suprising efficient and i might play a single tarfire. As for sideboard choices, i am still delibrating between choke or Carpet of flowers or 1 each as each have their own virtue.

Keep Jund'em out!

[hovercraft]

Grim Lavamancer could be worth a slot or 2 as another 1 drop and extra clock.

[zulander]

Lord Windgrace is BUSTED. I think he's the savior the deck needed. I'm torn between a durdely version with loam/GSZ/pfire or a more traditional list. Honestly I don't think Liliana of the Veil adds anything anymore, the format is past her.

[Saboo]

Lord Windgrace is BUSTED. I think he's the savior the deck needed. I'm torn between a durdely version with loam/GSZ/pfire or a more traditional list. Honestly I don't think Liliana of the Veil adds anything anymore, the format is past her.

What about Bob? Flipping Windgrace is gonna hurt.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

If Jund goes big, does anyone think Sin Prodder could see play? Like a Jund Super-Friends or something?

[Mac9k5]

I've been having some successes with this list. Changing little things, like Chandra vs Bloodbraid Elf. but the deck actually feels okay. its sort of odd looking but plays alright. i am in the camp that the deck cant afford to run 3 wasteland any more, but you can play the 1 and not get color screwed. 2 was pushing it.

23 LANDS
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills

10 CREATURES
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf

19 INSTANTS and SORC.
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Fatal Push
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
4 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

8 OTHER SPELLS
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Mirri's Guile

SIDEBOARD
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Toxic Deluge

[ironclad8690]

I've been having some successes with this list. Changing little things, like Chandra vs Bloodbraid Elf. but the deck actually feels okay. its sort of odd looking but plays alright. i am in the camp that the deck cant afford to run 3 wasteland any more, but you can play the 1 and not get color screwed. 2 was pushing it.

23 LANDS
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills

10 CREATURES
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf

19 INSTANTS and SORC.
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Fatal Push
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
4 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

8 OTHER SPELLS
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Mirri's Guile

SIDEBOARD
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Toxic Deluge

Nice job on the various tournaments. Next week I am going to GP Portland to sell and buy some cards, after that I plan on playing a bunch of jund (also streaming leagues perhaps). Gotta keep the jund flame alive.

[joaquin]

Hey guys, I'm not a jund player (though I think the deck is sweet as hell), but the tournament I went to yesterday was taken down by a guy playing jund. I don't have much info on the deck but here is a picture of the mainboard. The guy was telling me he swears by bomat courier. The 4th courier is cut off by the picture but he is running 4 of them not 3.




https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0qHuQlU0AAzHy-.jpg

[Tee]

Interesting list. What are the 12 cards that was cut off from the photo? My guess is 4 bomat courier, 3 thought seize, 3 lighting bolts and 2 swamp.

[joaquin]

Interesting list. What are the 12 cards that was cut off from the photo? My guess is 4 bomat courier, 3 thought seize, 3 lighting bolts and 2 swamp.

Yes that is correct. There is only 1 bomat courier cut off of the picture on my computer, I didn't know it looked different on other peoples web browsers

[treach]

User EGGET went 5-0 (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2019-05-18) with the following decklist:

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Assassin's Trophy
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Liliana's Triumph
2 Punishing Fire
4 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

SB
1 Liliana's Triumph
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Choke
2 Damping Sphere
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge


Punishing Jund still semi-playable I guess?

[dsck]

This thread seems dead, is there a discord server people are using?

I have been brewing and really like Wren and Six in Jund.

[Scott]

Modern Horizons may have given Jund a boost with some new toys to play with. A 43-player tournament (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22383&f=LE) in Brazil over the weekend had 2 Jund decks in the top 8.

The 2nd place deck had 4 Wrenn and Six and 2 Nurturing Peatland main deck (along with 3 Mox Diamond), and 1 Plague Engineer in the side board.

The 3rd place deck 3 Wrenn and Six, 1 Nurturing Peatland, and 2 Seasoned Pyromancer main deck, and 2 Force of Vigor, 1 Plague Engineer, and 1 Weather the Storm in the side board.