Oops, All Spells! (Formerly The Rogue Hermit)

[slylie]

Unless you're running the living wish package (absolutely necessary in my opinion) and want to reuse your mana next turn for spy, there's almost no reason to imprint chrome mox with summoner's pact. Though I didn't see the match, I heard he had either a dark ritual or cabal therapy he could have pitched to mox as well. Hearing this, I feel the pilot either made mistakes or just picked up the deck after seeing the article on scg without actually testing. Though I don't think it's necessary, DRS would probably be the way to go if you feel you needed that 1 extra creature to pitch to mox as you stated.

As I've stated before, grabbing cavern is a really nice luxury but grabbing the swamp from the sb is usually more relevant if you've already got informer/spy in your hand or a second wish. Chancellor of the annex is a must in the sb (at least 3). It's good against almost every hate except crypt, macabre, and leyline of the void.

I think most good players will just counter the living wish.

[nudon]

1) Having the maximum number of the Informer main allows you to use LED as a 4th mana to go off. That has come up a lot more than wishing for the combo man and being short one mana, with a chrome mox in play.

2) I definitely agree on the split being 3/2 for improving chrome mox.

After some more thought, I agree 3/2 split is probably correct because there's still a decent good chance (7/11) your win-con will be balustrade spy in case you decided to board out a bridge and got a narcomoeba stuck in hand.


I think most good players will just counter the living wish.

I agree on this and there's not much we can do about it unless you're running pact of negation (chancellor of the annex helps me post-board). However, it's still better than getting a rogue countered (2 mana for wish instead of 4 for rogue).

[Ziveeman]

By the way, Reuben Bresler mentioned that 3 Rogue Hermit/Oops All Spells/Undercity Informer-Balustrade Spy decks made the Top 32 of SCG Edison. Pretty good showing in my opinion. There were 7 in the room apparently.

[Darklingske]

Stephens article is up at Eternal central: http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=3544

Nice article Stephen! And looking forward to the legacy part!!

[The Informer]

One other note about the deck from my experience playing it at Edison. I played the Fiend Hunter/Angel of Glory's rise kill, and after the tournament, stand by the decision to run it over Azami/Lab Maniac. Were I to play in another tournament tomorrow, I would play the same kill again. It is slightly more vulnerable, but if you play smartly, it will it not make any difference, and it saves space. More importantly, the odds of having a combo piece in hand go way down, and the odds of having two in hand go way down. With regards to non-permanent based disruption, it will to matter, since you can strip their hand. With regards to permanent based disruption, there is a slight difference. If I were to play again, I would probably put a Lab Maniac in the sideboard for that reason. But I would leave the kill in the main deck the same.

[Bahamuth]

So I wrote a program that can goldfish this deck. I first tried my own list:

Running:
4 Chrome mox
4 Petal
4 LED
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Pact
4 ESG
4 SSG
2 Chancellor

4 Manamorphose
1 Cantor

4 Spy
3 Informer
4 Living Wish
1 DR
1 Bridge
4 Moeba
2 Therapy
1 Angel
1 Fiend Hunter

These rates are for turn 1 wins:

Winrate for 7 cards: 39.1%
Winrate for 6 cards: 19.7%
Winrate for 5 cards: 5.59%
Winrate for 4 cards: 0.69%

Total Winrate including mulligans: 53.9%

These percentages have been found goldfishing a total of 10000 times for every amount of cards in hand.

I also tried the SCG list with 4 Annex mainboard. It had

Winrate for 7 cards: 34.5%
Winrate for 6 cards: 18.6%
Winrate for 5 cards: 5.59%
Winrate for 4 cards: 0.73%

Total Winrate including mulligans: 49.9%

These numbers could potentially be used to compare lists that have otherwise the same properties. For instance, comparing the above 2 lists makes no sense, since it has the difference of 4 Chancellor.

If anyone has any lists that are unique enough that they want ran, you can post them here and I'll try.

[nudon]

So I wrote a program that can goldfish this deck. I first tried my own list:

Running:
4 Chrome mox
4 Petal
4 LED
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Pact
4 ESG
4 SSG
2 Chancellor

4 Manamorphose
1 Cantor

4 Spy
3 Informer
4 Living Wish
1 DR
1 Bridge
4 Moeba
2 Therapy
1 Angel
1 Fiend Hunter

These rates are for turn 1 wins:

Winrate for 7 cards: 39.1%
Winrate for 6 cards: 19.7%
Winrate for 5 cards: 5.59%
Winrate for 4 cards: 0.69%

Total Winrate including mulligans: 53.9%

These percentages have been found goldfishing a total of 10000 times for every amount of cards in hand.

I also tried the SCG list with 4 Annex mainboard. It had

Winrate for 7 cards: 34.5%
Winrate for 6 cards: 18.6%
Winrate for 5 cards: 5.59%
Winrate for 4 cards: 0.73%

Total Winrate including mulligans: 49.9%

These numbers could potentially be used to compare lists that have otherwise the same properties. For instance, comparing the above 2 lists makes no sense, since it has the difference of 4 Chancellor.

If anyone has any lists that are unique enough that they want ran, you can post them here and I'll try.

Thanks for writing the program! The core of our deck is largely the same so I'm kind of curious how manamorphose affects the win %. The difference between your main deck and mine is: -4 manamorphose, -1 narc, -1 fiend hunter, +2 chancellor of the tangle, +1 therapy, +1 bridge, +1 azami, +1 angel. Not sure how robust your program is but there's also a swamp in my sb to turn on dark/cabal ritual in case I have only green/red/blue (narc on mox) sources.

[Darkenslight]

Thanks for writing the program! The core of our deck is largely the same so I'm kind of curious how manamorphose affects the win %. The difference between your main deck and mine is: -4 manamorphose, -1 narc, -1 fiend hunter, +2 chancellor of the tangle, +1 therapy, +1 bridge, +1 azami, +1 angel. Not sure how robust your program is but there's also a swamp in my sb to turn on dark/cabal ritual in case I have only green/red/blue (narc on mox) sources.

...I'm trying to figure out how the Angel/Hunter kill works, but I can't see it. Could someone please enlighten me?

[Climax]

...I'm trying to figure out how the Angel/Hunter kill works, but I can't see it. Could someone please enlighten me?

Angel returns Hunter, Wild Cantor, Informer.--> Hunter exiles Angel. Wild Cantor is sacced for Mana, so you can sacrifice Hunter for Informer and target your opponent. Angel returns. Rinse&Repeat

[Bahamuth]

Thanks for writing the program! The core of our deck is largely the same so I'm kind of curious how manamorphose affects the win %. The difference between your main deck and mine is: -4 manamorphose, -1 narc, -1 fiend hunter, +2 chancellor of the tangle, +1 therapy, +1 bridge, +1 azami, +1 angel. Not sure how robust your program is but there's also a swamp in my sb to turn on dark/cabal ritual in case I have only green/red/blue (narc on mox) sources.

I can fit the Wish to Swamp in I think. I'll try your list soon.

By the way, I don't think it's very obvious if 3 Moeba 2 Bridge is better than 4 Moeba 1 Bridge. The upside if 3-2 is that you have more black cards, but the downside is that if you draw Moeba+Bridge, you can't win whereas if you draw Moeba Bridge in the 4-1 config, you can.

[emidln]

I can fit the Wish to Swamp in I think. I'll try your list soon.

By the way, I don't think it's very obvious if 3 Moeba 2 Bridge is better than 4 Moeba 1 Bridge. The upside if 3-2 is that you have more black cards, but the downside is that if you draw Moeba+Bridge, you can't win whereas if you draw Moeba Bridge in the 4-1 config, you can.

Am I missing the part where you just therapy one of the 2 remaining narcos getting 1 token back to hit your bridge, sac the other narco to name something else ending up with 3 tokens, which you can DR with? I guess this would lose to drawing Moeba/Bridge/Therapy, but in that case, you just need to be luckier (and/or draw LED too).

[Bahamuth]

Am I missing the part where you just therapy one of the 2 remaining narcos getting 1 token back to hit your bridge, sac the other narco to name something else ending up with 3 tokens, which you can DR with? I guess this would lose to drawing Moeba/Bridge/Therapy, but in that case, you just need to be luckier (and/or draw LED too).

I think that's what I'm missing rather than you. That makes 3-2 strictly better I belive.

[MaximumC]

So I wrote a program that can goldfish this deck. I first tried my own list:

Running:
4 Chrome mox
4 Petal
4 LED
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Pact
4 ESG
4 SSG
2 Chancellor

4 Manamorphose
1 Cantor

4 Spy
3 Informer
4 Living Wish
1 DR
1 Bridge
4 Moeba
2 Therapy
1 Angel
1 Fiend Hunter

These rates are for turn 1 wins:

Winrate for 7 cards: 39.1%
Winrate for 6 cards: 19.7%
Winrate for 5 cards: 5.59%
Winrate for 4 cards: 0.69%

Total Winrate including mulligans: 53.9%

These percentages have been found goldfishing a total of 10000 times for every amount of cards in hand.

I also tried the SCG list with 4 Annex mainboard. It had

Winrate for 7 cards: 34.5%
Winrate for 6 cards: 18.6%
Winrate for 5 cards: 5.59%
Winrate for 4 cards: 0.73%

Total Winrate including mulligans: 49.9%

These numbers could potentially be used to compare lists that have otherwise the same properties. For instance, comparing the above 2 lists makes no sense, since it has the difference of 4 Chancellor.

If anyone has any lists that are unique enough that they want ran, you can post them here and I'll try.

What are your parameters for a win? Did you just compile all possible combinations of 7 or less cards that result in an immediate win and then check to see if they occur in the randomly drawn cards?

Did you calculate the chance for winning on the play or on the draw? Did you check for waiting a turn or two? Did you check for having disruption online?

I would be interested in the results of all of these.

[nudon]

I think that's what I'm missing rather than you. That makes 3-2 strictly better I belive.

Bridge plays better with LED too. Having 2 narcomoebas stuck in hand is awful. I think 3-2 is better but not strictly. It's a little easier to shave parts of the combo (i.e. cut 1 bridge/narc and 1-2 therapies) when boarding with the 4-1 split. That said, I don't think cutting 1 bridge/narc and 1-2 therapies with a 3-2 split will matter in most cases. Spy or living wish to find spy can bail us out if we have a narc/bridge stuck in hand by giving us that additional creature to sac.

[Bahamuth]

What are your parameters for a win?

To resolve a Spy/Informer and not have too many combo cards in hand.


Did you just compile all possible combinations of 7 or less cards that result in an immediate win and then check to see if they occur in the randomly drawn cards?

I mentioned I let the program goldfish 10000 hands.


Did you calculate the chance for winning on the play or on the draw?

Amount of cards in hand is what I vary.


Did you check for waiting a turn or two?
This is just the same as trying with +1 card, except that Chancellor doesn't work.


Did you check for having disruption online?

No, because there's no point.

[MaximumC]

To resolve a Spy/Informer and not have too many combo cards in hand. I mentioned I let the program goldfish 10000 hands.

So... right, but how did you do this? The guts of the program, not the high level. I ask because, assuming you are looking for specific cards, your results are accurate only if you correctly identified all possible turn 1 wins beforehand.

For example, perhaps your program says:

1. True or False: At least one Spy / Informer; and

2. True or False:
(2a. Chrome Mox and a Black card other than first Spy / Informer; or
(2b. Spirit Guide and a Wild Cantor; or
(2c. Spirit Guide and a Summoner's Pact; or
(2d. Wild Cantor and a Summoner's Pact; or
(2c. Lotus Petal
; and

3. True or False (various ways to generate additional 3, too numerous to list here).

See, if this is what you did, then your program is only accurate if you correctly identified every possible way to win.

[catmint]

These rates are for turn 1 wins:

Winrate for 7 cards: 39.1%
Winrate for 6 cards: 19.7%
Winrate for 5 cards: 5.59%
Winrate for 4 cards: 0.69%

Total Winrate including mulligans: 53.9%




Am I missing something or is somewhere in your numbers a mistake. They add up to 65%...?
Also I think it is safe to say that is is more likely to draw your missing piece on 6 for a win compared to the 5% you get for mulligan to 5 right?.


If it is not too much effort you could try a bunch of different stuff?
I would be interested in a version running all 8 combo pieces maindeck using 3 infernal tutor or 2-3 charbelcher as additional winconditions.
Charbelcher is a bit tougher to program I guess since you often cast it and still draw a couple of turns for mana to actually kill.
The % change of small tunes like a little bit more initial mana (chancellor) or reducing chrome mox or LED to 3 or running 4 narco and 1 bridge vs. the 3/2 configuration would be interesting or using more wild cantor instead of manamorphose as manafixing (loose a card but costs only 1).

Is there a way how others could use your program so more stuff is tried out?

[Bahamuth]

So... right, but how did you do this? The guts of the program, not the high level. I ask because, assuming you are looking for specific cards, your results are accurate only if you correctly identified all possible turn 1 wins beforehand.

For example, perhaps your program says:

1. True or False: At least one Spy / Informer; and

2. True or False:
(2a. Chrome Mox and a Black card other than first Spy / Informer; or
(2b. Spirit Guide and a Wild Cantor; or
(2c. Spirit Guide and a Summoner's Pact; or
(2d. Wild Cantor and a Summoner's Pact; or
(2c. Lotus Petal
; and

3. True or False (various ways to generate additional 3, too numerous to list here).

See, if this is what you did, then your program is only accurate if you correctly identified every possible way to win.

My program does this:

Look at the opening hand.
Cast all cards that are castable.
For every card that I cast, look at the hand without that card again and cast it.

My program works. I checked it for about 100 hands and I agreed with all of it's results.


Am I missing something or is somewhere in your numbers a mistake. They add up to 65%...?

You can't add those probabilities. Lets call chance to win with 7 cards p7, chance to win with 6 p6 etc.

Then the probability to win a game is p7 + (1-p7)*p6 + (1-p7)*(1-p6)*p5+....


Also I think it is safe to say that is is more likely to draw your missing piece on 6 for a win compared to the 5% you get for mulligan to 5 right?.

Not sure if I understand. Do you mean that if you have a hand of 6 cards and are missing a win-con, it's better to keep the hand and hope to draw a win-con? If that's what you mean, no you can't conclude that because at turn 2 you're more likely to lose to your opponent.


If it is not too much effort you could try a bunch of different stuff?
I would be interested in a version running all 8 combo pieces maindeck using 3 infernal tutor or 2-3 charbelcher as additional winconditions.

I ran lists with Belcher and listed both flat out winning the game and dropping Belcher and passing. I didn't save the numbers because I discarded the list very quickly. The winrates were pretty poor, and even though the deck gets to drop Belcher quite often, you're not as likely to win as with regular RG Belcher since your deck has many dead cards and you could have to cast Pact to drop Belcher.

I can try some more lists that have different amounts of manafix, but it kind of takes a long time. Changing the program isn't that trivial, and the program has to run approximately a full night to find the winrate for 7 cards.

[Dessyreqt]

Are you comfortable with publishing the source to your program? Perhaps some of us other coders could find optimizations or, at the very least, run it for different lists concurrently. This way we might be able to find a more optimal list faster.

[Bahamuth]

Sure:

http://codepad.org/7TqBzikm

Written in Python with the Numpy library. It's probably also very ugly. Hope you can make any sense of it.

[alderon666]

That takes a whole night to run? Ten thousand hands?
It shouldn't be so slow... maybe if you remove the print inside the loop, but still...

[Vacrix]

You're a strictly worse SI/Belcher deck that loses to Grafdigger's Cage, Tormod's Crypt and co.
This... and it runs a Pact SI/Belcher mana base, with a business suite more like Belcher, so it automatically is just a super fragile glass house thats not going to really beat anything that Belcher/SI/TES/ANT wouldn't because the maindeck doesn't support a real sideboard of any kind. I'm sincerely surprised that people are still crazed about a bad version of Belcher. One day people will catch on that you can play this card with lands.. well maybe.

[Ziveeman]

This... and it runs a Pact SI/Belcher mana base, with a business suite more like Belcher, so it automatically is just a super fragile glass house thats not going to really beat anything that Belcher/SI/TES/ANT wouldn't because the maindeck doesn't support a real sideboard of any kind. I'm sincerely surprised that people are still crazed about a bad version of Belcher. One day people will catch on that you can play this card with lands.. well maybe.

As I mentioned before, Reuben Bresler mentioned on his podcast that 3 of the 7 decks that were played at Edison placed in the Top 32. That's not poor by any means.

[MaximumC]

As I mentioned before, Reuben Bresler mentioned on his podcast that 3 of the 7 decks that were played at Edison placed in the Top 32. That's not poor by any means.

It's the speed and the potential for counter-hate that makes this deck scary. In addition to Chancelor, which saw play in Legacy already, Steve Menedian (and contributors) are working out some amazing answers that Belcher can't run. For example:

Pact of Negation = If you want to win turn 1, this is just a stupid, stupid card.

Leyline of Anticipation = If you need to go off during the opponent's upkeep. This is when you're stuck on the draw and expect some insurmountable hate coming down turn 1, like Grafdigger's Cage. More necessary in Vintage versus shops, perhaps, but useful in Legacy.

Leyline of Lifeforce = Now all they can do is Force of Will your mana producers. Probably buys you a few turns to assemble the win until they can find enchantment removal.

Grand Abolisher = Used with Angel kills, this renders creature removal virtually useless at disrupting the combo.

Force of Will = Depending on your blue count, you might be able to support this. 4 Narcos + 4 Leylines + 4 Pacts + 4 FoW seems entirely doable if your deck can function that way.

[walker]

This... and it runs a Pact SI/Belcher mana base, with a business suite more like Belcher, so it automatically is just a super fragile glass house thats not going to really beat anything that Belcher/SI/TES/ANT wouldn't because the maindeck doesn't support a real sideboard of any kind. I'm sincerely surprised that people are still crazed about a bad version of Belcher. One day people will catch on that you can play this card with lands.. well maybe.

I wouldn't write this deck off as a bad version of belcher and call it a day. Unlike belcher this deck kills whenever it gets its combo off (I'm primarily a belcher player so I know the burn of blowing my load on goblins and then losing). Still, comparing this deck to belcher is fair, but comparing it to much more complicated combo decks like SI/TES/ANT is a huge stretch because of the difference in difficulty piloting those decks.

I agree that this deck and indeed this strategy is in the stages of infancy regardless of how complete people think their list is. There is a lot of unexplored potential waiting to be brewed. A couple weeks ago I threw together a list with veteran explorers but I didn't come up with anything that looked decent enough to test. I haven't had much time for magic lately so it started and ended there, but if I were to come up with something new I would be tempted to try something with 0 cost dudes. If you come up with anything that looks promising I would love to see it, or at least continue the conversation of innovating this strategy.

[Darklingske]

So, I decided to take this deck to a GPT yesterday. Overall not bad, but definitly good neither. I went 3-3
R1 against esperblade. (0-1)
Unfortunatly against a teammate who knew what I was playing. G1 T1 kill through Spell Pierce. G2 I mull to 5. T1 Living Wish meets FoW, T2 Chrome mox hits a spell Pierce, T3 Dark Rit eats a FoW. And then I'm out of gas and he has a Geist equiped with SoFF wich spells imminent doom. G3 I mull to 4 and he plays T1 Needle on Informer (wich is of course in my hand). I can't find any other killcon's and die through Batterskull hits.
R2 against Belcher (1-1)
G1 mull to 6. T1 he opens with Probe, Probe, SSG, Rite of Flame, Manamorph, manamorph... and fizzle. In my turn, I kill him. G2 is a T1 kill for him. G3 is T1 for me.
R3 against RUG (1-2)
Again a teammate on the other side. G1 he mulls to 4 and has a ridiculous hand. I Mull to 6 and need just a manasource to kill him. Of course I never see one and Delver beats me to pulp. G2 I can play an Informer, but not activate it. It dies, and long afterwards, so do I.
R4 against BUGcontrol (2-2)
T1 Informer, no activation. On his T2 he decays it. I can't find another wincon in the following 10 turns and double Baleful strix kills me. G2 T1 Belcher, but no activation. After 6 turns, I finally find a LED and win. G3 is a T1 Belcher with activation.
R5 against Junk (2-3)
G1 is a T1 kill with cabal therapy protection. G2 he plays Thoughtseize on T1 taking my wincon. I don't find one in time and die to goyfbeatings. G3 I mull to 4 and can't find a wincon in time. My hand was: Leyline of Sanctity, Petal, Ritual, Pact.
R6 against TES (3-3)
At last a game where I won the die-roll!! And I know what he's on and the importance on starting first. G1 is T1 kill for me. G2 he starts with Gemstone mine. In my upkeep he silences me. T2 he plays volcanic, ponder, ponder, petal. In my upkeep nothing happens and I kill him.

So overall pretty happy with it, but I'm not to fond of the LED's and Wishes. It only occured once (and then the wish got countered) that I had the possibility to use both Wish & LED. For the remaining time, I often had a LED in play, but no possibility to use it. Also, the green Chancellor was underwhelming. I could only use it once and more often then not I would draw him and not be able to do anything with it.
I think that the first thing that I'm gonna do now is swapping the Chancellors with Street Wraiths to see how it goes. Or maybe swapping them for manamorphoses. Manafixing and carddraw is always sweet of course.
Anyway, this deck is a lot of fun to play, but it still needs work.

[catmint]

So, I decided to take this deck to a GPT yesterday.
This allone deservers an award for beeing brave! :smile:



...
I Mull to 6 and need just a manasource to kill him. Of course I never see one and Delver beats me to pulp.
...

you need a manasource to try to kill him right? Any disruption would still loose so you might not have been that close.



...
G3 I mull to 4 and can't find a wincon in time. My hand was: Leyline of Sanctity, Petal, Ritual, Pact.
...

Lucky hand against junk on 4 cards. I count seven outs since you need extra mana for living wish + him not having a GY hate piece or some random hatebear.




...
At last a game where I won the die-roll!! And I know what he's on and the importance on starting first. G1 is T1 kill for me. G2 he starts with Gemstone mine. In my upkeep he silences me. T2 he plays volcanic, ponder, ponder, petal. In my upkeep nothing happens and I kill him.
...

What a bad play by TES opponent. He should just silence you in response to Mill-Library trigger and win. Chant effects should make TES favourite in this matchup.


Overall the results look representative to what you can expect from the deck. Loose to yourself - loose to any piece of disruption - get your fair share of turn 1 wins.

One: questions: the goldfishing results show that mulligan to 5 needs some draws and drawing is overall bad. In retrospect shouldn't you have stayed on 6 a couple of times?

[Darklingske]

This allone deservers an award for beeing brave! :smile:

Thank you, it felt awesome too

you need a manasource to try to kill him right? Any disruption would still loose so you might not have been that close.

I had a cabal Therapy in hand and could have protected the combo. But then again, I lost that one, so musing over "What ifs" don't help changing that.

Lucky hand against junk on 4 cards. I count seven outs since you need extra mana for living wish + him not having a GY hate piece or some random hatebear.

Yes indeed, true. I did board into Belcher and removed 3 Wish for those.

One: questions: the goldfishing results show that mulligan to 5 needs some draws and drawing is overall bad. In retrospect shouldn't you have stayed on 6 a couple of times?
Maybe, but I prefer to mull any hands that can't generate B. More testing will have to show the right way to enlightenment.

[Blackout-Comix]

I posted this over on Salvation, but I wanted your thoughts on it too.

I did some fairly extensive play testing over the weekend and after a lot of tweaking, this is my current list:


Creatures
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Undercity Informer
4 Street Wraith
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Narcomoeba
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
1 Wild Cantor
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls

Sorceries/Instants
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Worldly Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
3 Manamorphose
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
1 Bridge from Below

Artifacts:
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
1 Grim Monolith

Side Board
1 Fiend Hunter
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Nature's Claim
4 Pact of Negation


The big difference between this list and previous ones is the inclusion of Worldly Tutor and the removal of Living Wish and LED. After lots of testing, I am loving the consistency he gives. With Worldly Tutor you now have 12 of the necessary cards to combo off instead of the normal 8 (Spies/Informers), which drastically improves your chances of drawing the necessary combo starter in your starting hand. Generating green mana is very easy with this deck and Worldly Tutor can fetch either the Spy or Informer if you fail to draw them at the cost of only 1 green mana. He can also fetch Wild Cantor in the case you fail to draw any ability to generate black mana. The cantrips of Street Wraith and Manamorphose work really well with him and together they guarantee your draws work out well. They also serve as a source of black mana since Wraith can be imprinted on mox and Manamorphose generates it naturally. Due to the fairly high number of dead cards, most of which make up the end combo win condition, roughly 12, blindly drawing is kind of risky and the tutor makes sure it works out. It's also the reason I only have 7 cantrips. Any more and they are a bit too detrimental. Drawing any dead combo cards are not too terrible, since Therapy can rip them out of your hand if you draw them, but it's still preferable to not have to risk wasting cards drawing dead cards.

Dead Cards to draw: (Labratory Maniac, Azami, Narcomoeba, Dread Return, Angel of Glory's Rise, Chancellor of the Tangle, Bridge?)

Bridge is questionable since it can also serve as an imprinting target for black mana.

I have found that I can combo off on my first turn the majority of the time, and even when I can't I can usually go off next turn after my first draw.

My Sideboard makes up answers to most hate strategies. The Pacts counter most counter magics. The Nature's Claims take out any grave hate artifacts or enchantments such as Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt, etc. Chain of Vapor takes out problematic creatures. Chancellors help prevent discard spells early and anything else really. I'm also including a Fiend Hunter. If your opponent doesn't have protection from mill strategies, such as Emerakul, then swapping him out with Maniac and Azami frees up a spot in your deck for counter hate and decreases the chances of drawing a dead card. Maniac and Azami are still better to start out with in game 1 since the contents of your opponent's deck are irrelevant and you basically play solitaire with yourself until you win.

If you have any other questions about why I included something, please let me know.

What do you guys think?

[Darklingske]

The big difference between this list and previous ones is the inclusion of Worldly Tutor and the removal of Living Wish and LED. After lots of testing, I am loving the consistency he gives. With Worldly Tutor you now have 12 of the necessary cards to combo off instead of the normal 8 (Spies/Informers), which drastically improves your chances of drawing the necessary combo starter in your starting hand.

Nice idea! I will test it out. But do try to play the deck in a tournament. Opponents (and friends) play differently in a real MU. I notice this every testsession with my friends.

My Sideboard makes up answers to most hate strategies. I'm also including a Fiend Hunter. If your opponent doesn't have protection from mill strategies, such as Emerakul, then swapping him out with Maniac and Azami frees up a spot in your deck for counter hate and decreases the chances of drawing a dead card.

Haven't thought of that idea! Nice one!!

[slylie]

Found this list looking through the Legacy Dailies, went 3-1 with a new win condition.

Cynthesis (3-1)
Legacy Daily #5019862 on 02/17/2013


Main Deck
60 cards

4 Balustrade Spy
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Lord of Extinction
4 Narcomoeba
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 The Mimeoplasm
4 Tinder Wall
1 Triskelion
4 Undercity Informer
1 Wild Cantor
28 creatures

4 Cabal Ritual
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
1 Dread Return
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lotus Petal
4 Manamorphose
4 Rite of Flame
4 Summoner's Pact
32 other spells

Sideboard
2 Barren Moor
1 Giant Solifuge
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pact of Negation
15 sideboard cards

[Koby]

I love how these lists just lose to a Silence. Oops, all-in. :)

[Lejay]

I wouldn't say that. I faced him round one of this event. G1 Turn 1 kill on the play. G2 Turn 1 kill on the draw and he counters my silence with pact of negation.

[phazonmutant]

Found this list looking through the Legacy Dailies, went 3-1 with a new win condition.
...
1 The Mimeoplasm
...

Page 4:

Here's my list. It wins on turn 1 pretty consistently.
http://deckstats.net/deck-1858360-9c22d336571fb2e3328ef3a7126abc64.html
...
Mimeoplasm kill dodges swords, bolt, stifle, etc.

also on page 6, more discussion:

Thanks, welcome to the Source! Mimeoplasm kill is totally fine (he's actually my edh general) in my opinion. However, one of the benefits of running maniac is you can side out angel and azami since your opponent will be taking out all his removal spells anyways and you have cabal therapy flashback just in case.

And...well, why don't you let google be your friend.

[Koby]

I wouldn't say that. I faced him round one of this event. G1 Turn 1 kill on the play. G2 Turn 1 kill on the draw and he counters my silence with pact of negation.

Possible? Sure. Realistic? Less so. That's a ridiculous hand to get regardless: Petal, SSG, DR, enabler, Pact. That's really low odds.

[Darkenslight]

I love how these lists just lose to a Silence. Oops, all-in. :)

you have to HAVE the silence and a way to cast it turn 0 on the draw, and you HAVE to have the Silence+Tundra...which does considerable 'damage' to openers for most decks. Frankly, I'd be more worried about Chalice of the Void and its Leyline brethren.

[slylie]

Page 4:


also on page 6, more discussion:


And...well, why don't you let google be your friend.

So what's your point? I'm simply showing a list that made money in a MTGO tourney recently, the list is much different from the one you linked to, it simply uses a similar kill condition.

The original kill condition gets around stp or AD fine anyways, unless they have and can cast three copies. I like that it also gets around any shroud effects like White leyline, solitary confinement, forcefield ect. It's just a win button.

[Koby]

you have to HAVE the silence and a way to cast it turn 0 on the draw, and you HAVE to have the Silence+Tundra...which does considerable 'damage' to openers for most decks. Frankly, I'd be more worried about Chalice of the Void and its Leyline brethren.

I mean, I play TES from time to time, so that's not unheard of with such a deck.

So in summary:
Must be on the play.
Must have a way to stop Force of Will (Pact or Therapy).
Must have a hand to be able to generate 4 mana and have the Spy/Informer.

Like I said, this is realistic. /sarcasm

[Kap'n Cook]

Found this list looking through the Legacy Dailies, went 3-1 with a new win condition.
...
1 The Mimeoplasm
...


The Mimeoplasm as a win-con is not new. It has been in Breakfast for a while now. Angel gets around Leyline of Sanctity and one removal spell.

[slylie]

The Mimeoplasm as a win-con is not new. It has been in Breakfast for a while now. Angel gets around Leyline of Sanctity and one removal spell.

Oh sorry, I forgot to check the breakfast decklists that haven't won a tournament in 7 years.

[JDK]

Oh sorry, I forgot to check the breakfast decklists that haven't won a tournament in 7 years.
There have already been some Informer lists involving Mimeoplasm. No need to get saucy.

[lost_ronin_soul]

i been trying aether vial so i can keep one mana hands and win a couple turns down the road, mimeoplasm beats leyline by adding dragon breath

[plimplam]

Latest list I'm playing.

4 Undercity informer
4 balustrade spy

4 gitaxian probe
4 street waith

4 simian spirit guide
4 elvish spirit guide
4 summoner's pact
4 dark ritual
3 cabal ritual
1 wild cantor

4 Lotus petal
4 Chrome mox

2 cabal therapy
4 pact of negation

4 narcomoeba
2 Bridge from below
1 dread return
3 Combo


Side:

4 charbelcher
4 leds
4 spoils of the vault
3 Rite of flame

About Pact of Negation, it's MVP, and it's cool still when you transform your deck to charbelcher, I delete all of manamorphosis copies, the wort card of the deck. 13 cards for black are enough. With 2 bridges we can do -1 moeba + 1 cabal ritual/wild cantor/manamorphosis.

[Dyvith]

This deck is inherently powerful, however it is also fragile and easy to hate out. Surgical ruins your day, as does force, and any deck playing more than a combined total of six of these cards will be an unenjoyable matchup, especially games two and three when your opponents know to mulligan into hate on the draw. When you are on the draw, you are inherently disadvantaged because one blue mana represents multiple ways to interact with you, and one hand disruption spell is often brutal, and one of any mana means that they can cast a free spell (surgical, force, daze) and still pay for Chancellor.

People know about this deck right now because it's so powerful, but I know that on MTGO, I've begin boarding all four surgicals because the desk is so popular on the online meta. In a real tournament, it will probably take a few months before people forget about this, and then someone will win with it. It's like Dredge - people forget to bring hate, and then get punished.

Also, one of the inherent weaknesses of this deck is that it's very hard to really sideboard when you play no lands at all. Though I've mainly played against this deck, I'm really surprised that the version with Land Grant hasn't taken off, as with 4 Land Grants, 1 Land, 4 Probes, and 4 Street Wraith, I imagine it's not difficult to remove the land on the first turn. Or perhaps, you can board in the package so that your additional hate isn't dead.

[Esper3k]

What do you guys think of the list Bryant Cook posted on his article using Worldly Tutor to fetch up Spy/Informer and then drawing it with Probe/Street Wraith?

[Blackout-Comix]

What do you guys think of the list Bryant Cook posted on his article using Worldly Tutor to fetch up Spy/Informer and then drawing it with Probe/Street Wraith?

While I fully support the addtion of Worldly Tutor, I cannot see the Street Wraiths and Probes being a good addition. Drawing is less than ideal in this deck and without Worldly Tutor ensuring what you draw, it's an unncessary risk. Additionally, he points to the play of playing Worldly Tutor and then using the Street Wraith/Probe to draw the tutored card and still go off. The odds of your opening hand having the ability to generate 5 mana (4 for the Spy/Informer and 1 for the Tutor), Probe or Wraith, and the Tutor in hand are incredibly small, especially when he removes spots for mana acceleration with all the cantrips and protection. Worldly Tutor is reliable if you wait a turn until after the draw, but if you do that then why have the cantrips. The cantrips spots would be better as mana accel to ensure the combo can go off more frequently or at least as protection slots.

I personally include 4 Worldly Tutors. With 4, the odds of drawing at least one of the necessary pieces to combo off (Spies/Informers/Tutors) is ~80%. Without Tutors the odds are ~66% and with only 2 the odds are ~75%.

0 Tutors = auto mulligan 1 out of 3 hands
2 Tutors = auto mulligan 1 out of 4 hands
4 Tutors = auto mulligan 1 out of 5 hands

The consistency gained from the Tutor and the decrease in card disadvantage due to agressive mulligans validates his inclusion and personally I feel it justifies a full 4.

I have tried including the Probes/Wraiths, but the vast majority of the time I was using them to dig for mana accel and just wishing that they were mana accel instead.

I also disagree with including Manamorphose. While it is a good mana fixer, this deck has plenty of ways to generate black mana without it. Whenever most methods failed, I would just Tutor for a Wild Cantor or use the Summoner's Pact to get one. I have never felt the need for Manamorhpose and not including it freed up spots for additional mana accel.

I've been going back and forth including Pact of Negation main board, but it's a definitely in my side.

I also noticed his list had no Bridge from Below. If you draw a Narcomoeba and a combo piece with his list, and don't have the Spy to combo off with, then you lose. The odds of having drawing both a Narcomoeba and a combo piece are ~16%. That's quite a bit since with his list he also auto mulligans once every four hands anyway due to not drawing Spy/Informer/Tutor. In his defense he did say you have to aggressively mulligan, but I ask why? We should be reducing mulligan chances as much as possible and his list raises this more than anything.

His sideboard is also terrible. Including Charbelcher without LED in his side is not good. His list will already have a difficult time generating the four/five mana he needs to go off and he thinks you can include the Charbelcher with no additional mana accel and be fine? Personally I hate the Charbelcher transformation, but if you do include it then you need the LEDs.

Edit: This was based off this list: http://jupitergames.info/articles/2013/52925/the-cutting-room-floor-maniacal-tendencies

I don't think I had the right article either.

[plimplam]

Where is it? Thanks ^^

[phazonmutant]

What do you guys think of the list Bryant Cook posted on his article using Worldly Tutor to fetch up Spy/Informer and then drawing it with Probe/Street Wraith?

nudon and I tried some lists a few pages back and thought it was garbage. Inconsistent in getting the "combo" of tutor + draw and they make evaluating hands extremely difficult / impossible.

[plimplam]

I tried Worldly tutor too, but I don't like it at all. In my opinion is better than living wish+led, but not that good as the 8 "hermit" and 4 probe 4 street waiths version.

[nudon]

nudon and I tried some lists a few pages back and thought it was garbage. Inconsistent in getting the "combo" of tutor + draw and they make evaluating hands extremely difficult / impossible.

Yeah, phazonmuant and I have tried a lot of these suggestions on earlier pages of the forum so feel free to dig through them so you can save time.

On worldly tutor vs. living wish:

Living wish + balustrade spy = 6 mana
Worldly tutor + balustrade spy/informer = 5 mana + cycler

On average, 1 card generates just above 1 mana (dark ritual nets 2 and in rare cases cabal ritual nets 3) so the 6th mana is actually easier to accomplish than getting a cycler. Also, there are more mana generators in the deck than cyclers. In addition to making mulligan decisions tougher, cyclers can unfortunately grab an undesired combo piece from the deck due to the high density of dead draws too.

[dropsaway]

Hello everybody

I have a question, if I replace Azami, Lady of Scrolls by Alchemist's Apprentice would have a problem?


Original pieces combo:

http://i.imgur.com/rR0DB3O.jpg http://i.imgur.com/oQebzK5.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/GxvDlhK.jpg


Altered pieces combo:

http://i.imgur.com/rR0DB3O.jpg http://i.imgur.com/oQebzK5.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/G0C1Iie.jpg

[Esper3k]

Well, Azami lets you still win immediately if you get Stifled once.

Also, the bigger concern is if someone kills your Lab Maniac in response to the draw ability - again Azami lets you win in response, but the Apprentice does not.

[dropsaway]

Well, Azami lets you still win immediately if you get Stifled once.

Also, the bigger concern is if someone kills your Lab Maniac in response to the draw ability - again Azami lets you win in response, but the Apprentice does not.

The way is continue in the search by azami :tongue:

[Darklingske]

This threat is pretty dead for the moment. Is nobody working anymore on this deck? I'm planning on taking the deck out again to a tournament this weekend. Maybe with an update, maybe not.

[Blackout-Comix]

This thread is pretty dead for the moment. Is nobody working anymore on this deck? I'm planning on taking the deck out again to a tournament this weekend. Maybe with an update, maybe not.

There's quite a bit being said about it over on Salvation. If you're looking for people working on it, that's the place to currently check.

[Mr. Safety]

Ran into this deck in my most recent local tournament on March 2nd. The guy came in 3rd place (I came in 2nd.) I was playing Junk/Rock and he couldn't overcome my discard, not with such a high critical mass of cards needed to combo out.

It's important to note that this deck has a *very hard* time winning against a Leyline of the Void. What are folks playing in the sideboard do deal with it? I would imagine that the best option would be Chain of Vapor or something similarly cheap, causing you do only need an additional mana on the combo turn.

[jancz]

Ran into this deck in my most recent local tournament on March 2nd. The guy came in 3rd place (I came in 2nd.) I was playing Junk/Rock and he couldn't overcome my discard, not with such a high critical mass of cards needed to combo out.

It's important to note that this deck has a *very hard* time winning against a Leyline of the Void. What are folks playing in the sideboard do deal with it? I would imagine that the best option would be Chain of Vapor or something similarly cheap, causing you do only need an additional mana on the combo turn.
Chain of Vapors or Natures Claim. Probably both. I have heard running Leyline of Sanctity vs Heavy discard decks is good choice (Like it would have been against yours).

I still don't know whether running a transformation sideboard or a reactionary sideboard is the better decision. I'd say the belcher transform fairs pretty poorly against some with discard but can take the graveyard hate by surprise.

[gkraigher]

Hello everybody

I have a question, if I replace Azami, Lady of Scrolls by Alchemist's Apprentice would have a problem?


Original pieces combo:

http://i.imgur.com/rR0DB3O.jpg http://i.imgur.com/oQebzK5.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/GxvDlhK.jpg


Altered pieces combo:

http://i.imgur.com/rR0DB3O.jpg http://i.imgur.com/oQebzK5.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/G0C1Iie.jpg

Azami gets around a singular Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Stifle, Abrupt Decay, etc. etc because you get a second chance to tap and draw a card because both lab maniac and azami are wizards.

[Darklingske]

There's quite a bit being said about it over on Salvation. If you're looking for people working on it, that's the place to currently check.

Okay, thanks! didn't check that forum, but will do now :smile:

[nudon]

Finally got around to experimenting with a few ideas today:
1. Grim monolith is actually pretty good at being cabal ritual 5-8. I wouldn't run 4 though...
2. Fiend hunter in the sb is pretty important to reduce the number of combo pieces (more on this below)
3. Pact of negation in the sb may be viable even in living wish builds (i.e. -4 living wish, -4 LED, +1 balustrade spy, +4 pact of negation, +3 chancellor of the annex)
4. City of traitors can be decent in the wish board for opening hands of chrome mox and/or chancellor of the tangle.

To improve this deck, I think it's a good idea to compare it against belcher and see how it falls short. Here are the major problems in my opinion in order of importance.
1. The number of dead combo pieces need to be trimmed. At a minimum, there are 9 dead cards: 4 narc, 1 cabal therapy, 1 dread return, 3 kill-cons. I had 3 cabal therapies in my previous build and 3-2 narc/bridge split. I now think this is incorrect.
2. The mana base. Belcher relies predominantly on red mana sources and takes better advantage of LED than we do (burning wish/belcher activation). Black mana is very difficult to generate sometimes in this deck. I've seen some people on salvation tinkering with rite of flame and I think they're wasting their time.
3. Gy hate. Self explanatory but not much we can do about it. Just need to fix 1 and 2 above.

[TheSobe33]

So I took this to a local tournament the other night:

4 Balustrade Spy
4 Undercity Informer
4 Street Wraith
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Wild Cantor
3 Narcomoeba
1 Azami
1 Lab Maniac
1 Angel/Glory's Rise

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
2 Bridge from Below

SB
1 Narcomoeba
4 Pact of Negation
1 Autumn's Veil
3 Leyline of Lifeforce
2 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Nature's Claim
2 Leyline of Sanctity

I know this is basically the Prosak list, but with the 3/2 Narco Bridge split and some changes in side. I've played with the LED/Living Wish package, but with mixed results. Basically I wanted to try it out in its 'original' form to see if I could do any better. I went 4-0, winning the tourney, but this comes with a pretty serious asterisk. Only one deck I played against would be what I consider a real challenge to the deck, especially in G1 (after that, any deck can hate this deck out): UW Rest in Peace/Helm. So I’m taking this result with a grain of salt.
I’m pretty new to combo decks and I wanted to build this deck to test the waters with combo. It’s cheap to build, having no duals or fetches, and it’s quirky and fast, which appeal to me. That being said, please be patient with me and any match mistakes that I may have committed.
Anyway, I didn’t take notes during the tourney, but I do remember a few things that happened.
Round 1: Affinity
G1: I go off turn 1, no problem
G2: I don’t side anything in, completely missing the fact that it’s very likely he has cage, and that would really mess up my day. I guess I was arrogant and figured the speed of the deck would be enough to overcome. Yeah, well he puts out first turn cage. Since I didn’t side anything in, I just cast Summoner’s Pact and passed. No sense in dragging it out after a dumb mistake.
G3: I side in Nature’s claims. Doesn’t matter as I go off again first turn with no response from him. Later he shows me an Annul he had in hand to counter a petal or LED, but no mana to cast. Lucky.
Round 2: UW RIP Helm
G1: Win the dice roll, go off turn 1
G2: I know what’s he’s on, so I side in Pacts. Doesn’t matter though, he plays RIP. I had kept a decent, but not great hand and I was unable to go off, probably til the 3rd turn or so. As soon as I saw the RIP, I just cast summoner’s pact and pass. I don’t know the deck too well, but I know the chances of him finding a helm with protection is much better than me finding an answer to the RIP at all, much less with protection.
G3: I go off turn 1 again, with Pact protection. This turned out to be unnecessary, as he had no Force in hand. Personally, I would’ve mulled til I had one in hand, but that’s me.
I have no illusions about this matchup. I firmly believe that 9 times out of 10, that decks beats me, with or without hate. It’s just so hard to overcome Forces and the like. But that’s the risk you run.
Round 3: Burn
G1: Go off 2nd turn, I think.
G2: I keep a slower hand, thinking my speed should be able to overcome him. Burn is fast, but not that fast, and I don’t care about my life total. He gets me down to 10, but I pull it out. He tried some burn on my narcomoebas, which might have worked, since I had a bridge and a narc in my hand when I went off. But having a spy in play made the difference.
Round 4: Zoo
G1: Go off 2nd turn again.
G2: Go off 1st turn. He had played a mountain, which he left untapped. I was worried about some type of burn shenanigans, which turned out to be unfounded. He had sided in 2 Tormod’s Crypts and 2 Relic of Progenitus, which he never saw. Again, lucky.

This tournament was more or less for fun (we buy in every other week for packs), but it did give me some valuable experience with the deck. I had tried the LED/Wish package in previous tourneys there, but only going 2-2. I hate to put much weight behind this result, as I don’t think everyone was playing to full potential, but it was a nice shot in the arm to the deck, which I have a lot more confidence in.

A few notes about my sideboard. Pacts are a must. They’re really the best protection we can ask for. The leylines of lifeforce I think are useful, but only as support. I may end up dropping them eventually. I’ve tried the Chancellor of the Annexes, but I can’t say I love them. I think having 4 leyline of sanctity would just be better. They’re both for protection against discard, and both are dead draws after the opening hand. I feel that sanctity covers more bases, but I could be wrong. Nature’s Claim is great, I’d like to go to 4, possibly with some Chain of Vapors also. I haven’t used Autumn’s Veil yet, it seems good, at least on paper. I like having the fourth narc in side against decks with burn or removal of any kind. It increases the chances of getting 3 or more flipped when we go off, without having to resort to Cabal Therapy to clean our hand up when it would better be used against the opponent. Also, I’m liking the Street Wraith/Gitaxian Probe build for the simple fact that they make the decision of what to side out that much easier, without messing with the flow of the deck. This was always difficult for me when running LED/Wish, but I definitely see the argument for not running them, as they do make mulligan decisions more difficult.
Overall, I hope this helps a little. Like I said, I made some mistakes and there is definitely a learning curve to a ’new’ combo player like myself. I had a lot of fun playing the deck and I see a lot of potential here. Thanks to everyone for reading and being patient with a bad player.

Also: I’d like to make a suggestion for the deck name: Captain Trips. I’m a fan of Stephen King, and the deck just kinda reminded me of the superflu from The Stand because it kills so fast and does nothing if you’re immune (kinda like when you mulligan into oblivion, or the opponent has protection). Just my two cents.

[nudon]

So I took this to a local tournament the other night:

4 Balustrade Spy
4 Undercity Informer
4 Street Wraith
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Wild Cantor
3 Narcomoeba
1 Azami
1 Lab Maniac
1 Angel/Glory's Rise

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
2 Bridge from Below

SB
1 Narcomoeba
4 Pact of Negation
1 Autumn's Veil
3 Leyline of Lifeforce
2 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Nature's Claim
2 Leyline of Sanctity

I know this is basically the Prosak list, but with the 3/2 Narco Bridge split and some changes in side. I've played with the LED/Living Wish package, but with mixed results. Basically I wanted to try it out in its 'original' form to see if I could do any better. I went 4-0, winning the tourney, but this comes with a pretty serious asterisk. Only one deck I played against would be what I consider a real challenge to the deck, especially in G1 (after that, any deck can hate this deck out): UW Rest in Peace/Helm. So I’m taking this result with a grain of salt.
I’m pretty new to combo decks and I wanted to build this deck to test the waters with combo. It’s cheap to build, having no duals or fetches, and it’s quirky and fast, which appeal to me. That being said, please be patient with me and any match mistakes that I may have committed.
Anyway, I didn’t take notes during the tourney, but I do remember a few things that happened.
Round 1: Affinity
G1: I go off turn 1, no problem
G2: I don’t side anything in, completely missing the fact that it’s very likely he has cage, and that would really mess up my day. I guess I was arrogant and figured the speed of the deck would be enough to overcome. Yeah, well he puts out first turn cage. Since I didn’t side anything in, I just cast Summoner’s Pact and passed. No sense in dragging it out after a dumb mistake.
G3: I side in Nature’s claims. Doesn’t matter as I go off again first turn with no response from him. Later he shows me an Annul he had in hand to counter a petal or LED, but no mana to cast. Lucky.
Round 2: UW RIP Helm
G1: Win the dice roll, go off turn 1
G2: I know what’s he’s on, so I side in Pacts. Doesn’t matter though, he plays RIP. I had kept a decent, but not great hand and I was unable to go off, probably til the 3rd turn or so. As soon as I saw the RIP, I just cast summoner’s pact and pass. I don’t know the deck too well, but I know the chances of him finding a helm with protection is much better than me finding an answer to the RIP at all, much less with protection.
G3: I go off turn 1 again, with Pact protection. This turned out to be unnecessary, as he had no Force in hand. Personally, I would’ve mulled til I had one in hand, but that’s me.
I have no illusions about this matchup. I firmly believe that 9 times out of 10, that decks beats me, with or without hate. It’s just so hard to overcome Forces and the like. But that’s the risk you run.
Round 3: Burn
G1: Go off 2nd turn, I think.
G2: I keep a slower hand, thinking my speed should be able to overcome him. Burn is fast, but not that fast, and I don’t care about my life total. He gets me down to 10, but I pull it out. He tried some burn on my narcomoebas, which might have worked, since I had a bridge and a narc in my hand when I went off. But having a spy in play made the difference.
Round 4: Zoo
G1: Go off 2nd turn again.
G2: Go off 1st turn. He had played a mountain, which he left untapped. I was worried about some type of burn shenanigans, which turned out to be unfounded. He had sided in 2 Tormod’s Crypts and 2 Relic of Progenitus, which he never saw. Again, lucky.

This tournament was more or less for fun (we buy in every other week for packs), but it did give me some valuable experience with the deck. I had tried the LED/Wish package in previous tourneys there, but only going 2-2. I hate to put much weight behind this result, as I don’t think everyone was playing to full potential, but it was a nice shot in the arm to the deck, which I have a lot more confidence in.

A few notes about my sideboard. Pacts are a must. They’re really the best protection we can ask for. The leylines of lifeforce I think are useful, but only as support. I may end up dropping them eventually. I’ve tried the Chancellor of the Annexes, but I can’t say I love them. I think having 4 leyline of sanctity would just be better. They’re both for protection against discard, and both are dead draws after the opening hand. I feel that sanctity covers more bases, but I could be wrong. Nature’s Claim is great, I’d like to go to 4, possibly with some Chain of Vapors also. I haven’t used Autumn’s Veil yet, it seems good, at least on paper. I like having the fourth narc in side against decks with burn or removal of any kind. It increases the chances of getting 3 or more flipped when we go off, without having to resort to Cabal Therapy to clean our hand up when it would better be used against the opponent. Also, I’m liking the Street Wraith/Gitaxian Probe build for the simple fact that they make the decision of what to side out that much easier, without messing with the flow of the deck. This was always difficult for me when running LED/Wish, but I definitely see the argument for not running them, as they do make mulligan decisions more difficult.
Overall, I hope this helps a little. Like I said, I made some mistakes and there is definitely a learning curve to a ’new’ combo player like myself. I had a lot of fun playing the deck and I see a lot of potential here. Thanks to everyone for reading and being patient with a bad player.

Also: I’d like to make a suggestion for the deck name: Captain Trips. I’m a fan of Stephen King, and the deck just kinda reminded me of the superflu from The Stand because it kills so fast and does nothing if you’re immune (kinda like when you mulligan into oblivion, or the opponent has protection). Just my two cents.

4 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Living Wish

4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Grim Monolith

1 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Laboratory Maniac

Sideboard
1 Balustrade Spy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Swamp
1 Ebon Stronghold
1 City of Traitors
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Fiend Hunter
4 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Goblin Charbelcher

That's the most evolved wish version that I've played with. Have you tried Ebon Stronghold and City of Traitors in your wishboard for the living wish/LED build? They really add a lot. They turn living wish into wild cantors 6-9 while serving as ramp with chrome mox. Saving mana from tangle in what would otherwise be a mullligan hand is very important too. I'm still skeptical about Prosak's list because of the high probability of mulligans. Leyline of lifeforce hasn't been that impressive in my testing because good players will just counter your mana instead. I like chancellor of the annex because of its ability to stop t1 deathrite shaman, cage, spellbomb etc. Rather than having reactionary cards like autumn's veil and nature's claim, I'd rather just side out 4 wishes for 1 spy and 3 charbelchers to sidestep the gy hate if it's really unbeatable. Probe and wraith make mulligan decisions much harder so I don't think they're a good idea. You didn't face any deck with discard so I think the sample size is not consistent with the meta-game right now. Let me know if you have continued success after more testing.

Edit: Peat bog combines the benefits of city of traitors and ebon stronghold to save 1 sb slot.

[P-E]

Nudon i'm planning to play your list do you have a side table ?
i'm wondering when you board in belcher etc

[nudon]

Nudon i'm planning to play your list do you have a side table ?
i'm wondering when you board in belcher etc

Fiend hunter comes in for azami and laboratory maniac against decks without emrakul or progenitus in order to reduce the number of dead cards. Charbelchers will usually come in game 3 if they had leyline of the void or faerie macabre game 2 since there's not much we can do about those cards. I would remove the living wishes for them. I haven't really figured out the sideboard plan yet aside from the wish targets but chancellor of the annex will usually come in for chancellor of the tangle. Against counter magic, it might be correct to bring in belchers too. Hope this helps!

[Smmenen]

Been back to testing this this week, and I should have some more suggestions for folks next week. Nudon, keep up the great work. I hope my list will give you some food for thought...

I'm really happy with my list (which I'll publish for free on EC), but I'm sure, oddly enough, I enjoy playing the archetype.

[nudon]

Been back to testing this this week, and I should have some more suggestions for folks next week. Nudon, keep up the great work. I hope my list will give you some food for thought...

I'm really happy with my list (which I'll publish for free on EC), but I'm sure, oddly enough, I enjoy playing the archetype.

Thanks, I look forward to checking out your list once you test and write about it.

[kohai]

Joined The Source just to comment and discuss this deck. Cuz it's awesome.

Why not, in the tradition of weird deck names, call this "Snow Combo"? ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtILxBszyf8

Heading to a Legacy event next week, will post results. It's more fun than UR Delver or Tide lately.

[Smmenen]

My list: http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=3745

[nudon]

My list: http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=3745

I agree with a lot of what Stephen has to say in his article. He summarizes all of the key aspects/issues to take into account when trying to make this deck work. Thanks!

[Bahamuth]

I ran that list through my program to try 5000 hands. It has a turn 1 winrate of about 29%. I don't know how relevant you find this. The deck is clearly geared toward wins on later turns too.

[Smmenen]

That seems really low. There may be something missing in your algorithm.

[Koby]

That seems really low. There may be something missing in your algorithm.

I read your primer Steven, and I'm a bit skeptical about your frequency of Turn 1 kill hands. They struck me as "too good to be true". I'm going to build your version and run my own tests, as validation. Good job on the primer, the ideas behind which cards to include/exclude are well reasoned and meaningful.

[nudon]

That seems really low. There may be something missing in your algorithm.

After reading your article and some testing, here's are some explanations of things I would do differently from your list:

Business
4 Undercity Informer - 4th informer in the main due to being able to use LED to activate ability (more on this below)
3 Balustrade Spy - still prefer 4th spy in the sb due to emergency body to sac to therapy/dread return
4 Living Wish
4 Narcomoeba - no bridge to reduce # of dead cards (finding room for playset of LED); should be fine with some main deck protection built in
1 Dread Return
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Cabal Therapy - shaved to reduce # of dead cards
3 Chancellor of the Annex - biggest problem regarding pact of negation is it does nothing against discard while on the draw; the only things this doesn't hit game 1 are FoW and daze (can be easily played through); it also allows you to run 4 LEDs

Mana Sources
3 Chancellor of the Tangle - shaved to bring in 4th LED
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
1 Deathrite Shaman - can be searched with summoner's pact and imprinted onto chrome mox; effectively gives you +5 black cards to pitch to mox; not too bad in hand as well
4 Lion's Eye Diamond - so good I want 4

Sideboard
1 Swamp
1 Peat Bog - better ebon stronghold
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors - probably not obvious to everyone but excellent with double living wish hands
1 Karakas
1 Balustrade Spy
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Pact of Negation - I like your idea of pact of negation with wishes when not running LED; board in against blue (-2 LED, -1 azami, -1 lab maniac, +1 fiend hunter)
4 Goblin Charbelcher

Overall, I really like your idea of still running pact of negations by reducing the number of LEDs while keeping living wish. Previously, I wouldn't run wish without LED to go with it. Like Koby said, good job explaining your card choices.

[Smmenen]

A couple of things worth mentioning not discussed in the article, which I'll double post, that may shed light on my approach:

* At the last minute I cut a 2nd Wild Cantor for the 1 LED maindeck. As I said in the article, Wild Cantor is shockingly important to this deck. Wild Cantor does so many important things, not just alleviate the one bottleneck, but also "store" Chancelor mana for later wins, sacrifice to Therapy, and more.

The LED was a last second inclusion. I actually prefer 0 LED maindeck. I prefer the way in which this list is able to win on turn 2 or turn 3.

* I play this deck kinda grindy compared to the speed versions. That reinforces what I just said. I like Living Wish's ability to win on turn two solidly. You have Chrome Mox in play, and Wished for a land, for a solid turn 2 victory.

This version of the deck, far more so than all of the other versions I tested, can recover better from a counterspell. You can actually grind out victories over turns because of your density of Hermits and because of Living Wish. LED and C of the Annex are much more "all in" tactics. That's why I don't prefer them.

[Bahamuth]

There is nothing missing in my algorithm that is important enough to severely alter that percentage. I can watch the program play out hands and I agree with it every time.

On the draw(so just with 8 instead of 7 cards) it's 44%

[nudon]

A couple of things worth mentioning not discussed in the article, which I'll double post, that may shed light on my approach:

* At the last minute I cut a 2nd Wild Cantor for the 1 LED maindeck. As I said in the article, Wild Cantor is shockingly important to this deck. Wild Cantor does so many important things, not just alleviate the one bottleneck, but also "store" Chancelor mana for later wins, sacrifice to Therapy, and more.

The LED was a last second inclusion. I actually prefer 0 LED maindeck. I prefer the way in which this list is able to win on turn 2 or turn 3.

* I play this deck kinda grindy compared to the speed versions. That reinforces what I just said. I like Living Wish's ability to win on turn two solidly. You have Chrome Mox in play, and Wished for a land, for a solid turn 2 victory.

This version of the deck, far more so than all of the other versions I tested, can recover better from a counterspell. You can actually grind out victories over turns because of your density of Hermits and because of Living Wish. LED and C of the Annex are much more "all in" tactics. That's why I don't prefer them.

With your starting premise in mind, here are some suggestions I think you might find helpful:

I like every card in your main deck except the single LED (or second cantor), I would definitely look at deathrite shaman for that last spot. Similar to wild cantor in your opening hand, it stores chancellor mana (exiling opponent fetches next turn) and is good with chrome mox (doesn't "waste" mana). However, it can be searched with summoner's pact and generate black mana off of chrome mox in a pinch. This effectively gives you 5 more black cards to pitch to chrome mox and has come up quite often in my testing.

For your sb, I think replacing karakas with a swamp is very strong. Being able to make your play wasteland-proof can probably save several games that would otherwise be lost. Moreover, karakas only acts as a hate card and doesn't add to the actual game plan. Besides, if your opponent plays show and tell, you can reveal your rogue and win on the spot. Also, I like peat bog over ebon stronghold as a personal preference since you can use it for 2 black mana a second time if your rogue gets countered. Looking at the options available, I would remove city of brass or fiend hunter to make room for the 4th LED supplementing the belcher package. How relevant has city of brass been in your testing? I can't see too many scenarios where I would wish for it instead of one of the other utility lands. Lastly, I forgot mention this before but I think the Thrun spot is a very nice idea I didn't think of. It gives main deck outs to leyline of the void/RiP/DRS.


There is nothing missing in my algorithm that is important enough to severely alter that percentage. I can watch the program play out hands and I agree with it every time.

On the draw(so just with 8 instead of 7 cards) it's 44%

Did you include wishing for a swamp to turn on dark and cabal ritual?

[Bahamuth]

Did you include wishing for a swamp to turn on dark and cabal ritual?

No, I'll try to fix this. It's not going to make a significant difference though.

[nudon]

No, I'll try to fix this. It's not going to make a significant difference though.

Thanks for working on this even though I agree it probably won't make a big difference. The other relevant line of play I think you might have missed in addition to using living wish as an expensive wild cantor for the t1 kill includes the following hand:

1 undercity informer, 1 black mana (petal, mox, or cantor + green/red source), 1 green source, 1 any other source, 1 living wish, and other junk

1. Use green + other source to wish for city of traitors
2. Use black mana + city of traitors to play undercity informer
3. Activate undercity informer's ability with city of traitors on next turn and win the game

This is technically not a turn 1 kill and can be considered a very greedy play but doesn't need your 1st draw step to help you win.

Edit:
If you know your opponent doesn't have removal, you can similarly use chrome mox as one of your 3 mana (5 mana for living wish instead of informer in opener) and have it reused next turn to activate informer's ability.

[goblinsplayer]

So, my question is what makes this deck different/better than the rest of the combo decks in legacy?

[Bahamuth]

Yeah, my program is not considering anything that happens past turn one. It would make things much more complicated.

[Koby]

So, my question is what makes this deck different/better than the rest of the combo decks in legacy?

This is the $40,000 question. It's definitely different; but is it better than existing options?

[MaximumC]

This is the $40,000 question. It's definitely different; but is it better than existing options?

I tend to think so. This deck should beat "fair" decks handily, just like Belcher. Unlike Belcher, however, this deck is not necessarily all-in; all you need to do is eventually resolve a four mana spell and you win. Plus, it can run protection like Pact of Negation, which is absolutely huge. It gains a vulnerability to grave hate, true, but then you can sideboard into traditional Belcher.

So, bottom line, this is a Belcher-style kill that accepts additional vulnerability to hate in exchange for being more resilient, both through disruption in the main and the ability to unpredictably sideboard into different kinds of threats.

[Koby]

I tend to think so. This deck should beat "fair" decks handily, just like Belcher. Unlike Belcher, however, this deck is not necessarily all-in; all you need to do is eventually resolve a four mana spell and you win. Plus, it can run protection like Pact of Negation, which is absolutely huge. It gains a vulnerability to grave hate, true, but then you can sideboard into traditional Belcher.

So, bottom line, this is a Belcher-style kill that accepts additional vulnerability to hate in exchange for being more resilient, both through disruption in the main and the ability to unpredictably sideboard into different kinds of threats.

I don't necessarily agree that it's more resilient than Belcher -- for starters, the graveyard is now exposed when going for the kill, opening up the possibility of losing to Surgical Extraction, Extirpate, Leyline, Tormod's Crypt, and Faerie Macabre. 4 out of the 5 options here can be played in ANY deck.

[MaximumC]

I don't necessarily agree that it's more resilient than Belcher -- for starters, the graveyard is now exposed when going for the kill, opening up the possibility of losing to Surgical Extraction, Extirpate, Leyline, Tormod's Crypt, and Faerie Macabre. 4 out of the 5 options here can be played in ANY deck.

I don't think that's true, because you have the option of sideboarding into belcher or Empty the Warrens. My point was that, yes, you are open to a new kind of hate, but you are also more adaptable to beat that hate. It's really hard for traditional Belcher to overcome a reasonable amount of countermagic (Force of Will, Flusterstorm, Mindbreak, etc) even with a board.

Hermit, in theory, always has options.

EDIT: The proof is, of course, in the pudding. The deck has to start winning to be considered a real thing. I remember how Tin Fins went under the radar for an absurd amount of time before filnally getting out there, and this deck has alot in common with that one; an ability to come back after an attempt to win is thwarted, yard and storm hate vulnerability, etc.

[nudon]

After testing with the deck again and using recommendations from Stephen and Final Fortune, I believe I have made significant progress that makes the deck much more consistent as well as giving it main deck solutions to FoW and graveyard hate. This progression was made possible by finally dropping LED entirely and working living wish overtime. This is illustrated by using the entire sideboard as a wish board. I firmly believe that the deck cannot really afford to board in cards because each card significantly dilutes the combo and makes it very inconsistent. While not having any sideboard options may ultimately be incorrect, I wanted to illustrate a full wish board repertoire for the purposes of this post. Once I get feedback on what people think is unnecessary, then those spots can be dedicated to a few sideboard options.

Here is my current main deck with explanations of new cards detailed below:

3 Undercity Informer
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Living Wish
3 Narcomoeba
2 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon Breath
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
1 Deathrite Shaman

There are two new additions to the main deck: sutured ghoul kill and unmask. Final Fortune pointed out that an additional cabal therapy can mitigate having to go through the attack step because you can name StP with the 3rd cabal therapy. This also gives us 1 additional black card to pitch to chrome mox. Unmask replacing pact of negation is HUGE. I didn't like how pact of negation was too reactive and thus did nothing against discard and combo. Unmask not only makes use of extra rogues, bridges, therapies, and pacts (fetching DRS) but pitches to chrome mox for black mana too. In my testing, it's been nothing short of amazing.

Sideboard with explanations:
1 Swamp - black mana and plays around wasteland
2 Peat Bog - ramps black mana; 2 because of wasteland
1 Forest - for double living wish hands and plays around wasteland
1 Hickory Woodlot - for double living wish hands and ramp
1 Cavern of Souls - uncounterable rogue
1 City of Traitors - immediate double mana to play second living wish or informer
1 Undercity Informer - rogues 8-11
1 Desecration Demon - for playing around gy hate with black mana; fastest clock among anti-gy hate options
1 Thrun, the Last Troll - for playing around gy hate with green mana; best against control among anti-gy hate options
1 Lodestone Golem - for playing around gy hate with wrong mana; storm hate among anti-gy hate options
1 Phyrexian Obliterator - for playing around gy hate with perfect mana; probably rare to pull off
1 Gilded Drake - show and tell hate; probably rare to pull off
1 Karakas - show and tell hate; generates mana
1 Bojuka Bog - gy hate; generates mana

Sorry for the long post but hopefully it will help trigger some good ideas/conversation as a result. Thanks for reading.

[phazonmutant]

With so much protection, the Sutured Ghoul kill definitely can be reasonable. In your testing, have the longer grindy games been harder to win with Ghoul compared to the Angel kill?

I'm surprised Unmask has been consistent for you. I know it's a card that was tested before, but at least in my experience was never consistent. The deck tends to mulligan a lot, so I would think Pact of Negation would be live more often. How often would you say your build of the deck mulligans compared to previous builds?

What prompted adding Deathrite? I know PSI uses it as Chrome Mox fodder but I never really found it necessary when I was testing this deck.

The Wish board makes sense. The transformative boards have never really worked better than just hoping they didn't have it.

Glad to see you're still working on the deck! That list looks so much more polished than where we started - it's been a great experience watching this deck develop!

[nudon]

With so much protection, the Sutured Ghoul kill definitely can be reasonable. In your testing, have the longer grindy games been harder to win with Ghoul compared to the Angel kill?

I'm surprised Unmask has been consistent for you. I know it's a card that was tested before, but at least in my experience was never consistent. The deck tends to mulligan a lot, so I would think Pact of Negation would be live more often. How often would you say your build of the deck mulligans compared to previous builds?

What prompted adding Deathrite? I know PSI uses it as Chrome Mox fodder but I never really found it necessary when I was testing this deck.

The Wish board makes sense. The transformative boards have never really worked better than just hoping they didn't have it.

Glad to see you're still working on the deck! That list looks so much more polished than where we started - it's been a great experience watching this deck develop!

The ghoul kill isn't really a problem when running 3 cabal therapies. In long games, your opponent's outs are maze of ith (usually a singleton in KoTR decks) or two different removal spells. Even then, this can be addressed by adding fiend hunter and angel of glory's rise to the sb. The reason why unmask didn't work before was because chancellor of the tangle wasn't being used yet. Also, having that single DRS turns all your summoner's pact black so you can lead with unmask on the combo turn. I really don't like pact of negation in this build since I think it's too slow. It causes you to lose to t1 DRS. The deck mulligans a lot less because the wish board really helps clean up our hand while unmask is a virtual time walk. More importantly, the mulligans to 4-5 are much better than before. There's a realistic chance of recovering.

The single DRS adds so much to the deck in my testing. Having 5 more black sources helps chrome mox while also being able to pitch to unmask as stated above. Moreover, it stores chancellor mana if drawn in opening hand. It'll most likely draw removal in this case but once again, that slows your opponent down a full turn. If it doesn't draw removal, you will probably win the game.

Thanks, I started working on the deck again when I saw Stephen try living wish without LED. His idea of using living wish to bypass gy hate was good too. It's been a rewarding experience so far to see this deck grow. :)

[Final Fortune]

The ghoul kill isn't really a problem when running 3 cabal therapies. In long games, your opponent's outs are maze of ith (usually a singleton in KoTR decks) or two different removal spells. Even then, this can be addressed by adding fiend hunter and angel of glory's rise to the sb. The reason why unmask didn't work before was because chancellor of the tangle wasn't being used yet. Also, having that single DRS turns all your summoner's pact black so you can lead with unmask on the combo turn. I really don't like pact of negation in this build since I think it's too slow. It causes you to lose to t1 DRS. The deck mulligans a lot less because the wish board really helps clean up our hand while unmask is a virtual time walk. More importantly, the mulligans to 4-5 are much better than before. There's a realistic chance of recovering.

The single DRS adds so much to the deck in my testing. Having 5 more black sources helps chrome mox while also being able to pitch to unmask as stated above. Moreover, it stores chancellor mana if drawn in opening hand. It'll most likely draw removal in this case but once again, that slows your opponent down a full turn. If it doesn't draw removal, you will probably win the game.

Thanks, I started working on the deck again when I saw Stephen try living wish without LED. His idea of using living wish to bypass gy hate was good too. It's been a rewarding experience so far to see this deck grow. :)

I posted my thoughts on Unmask, Pact of Negation, Lion's Eye Diamond and how you should build your SB in Stephen's thread and I'm going to read thru' this thread to get a better idea of what has and hasn't been tried.

[Smmenen]

So, my question is what makes this deck different/better than the rest of the combo decks in legacy?

That may be the simplest of all of the questions to answer, and is answered in my article:

For just 4 mana, you can win the game on turn one with a Rogue Hermit. That is better in at least one critical sense: that is much cheaper than anything else. Belcher costs 7 mana total to do what Rogue Hermit can do for just 4.

4>7 in Magic.

The trade-off, of course, is that whereas Belcher just has to deal with countermagic, this deck also has to answer graveyard hate. So the 4 mana versus 7 total mana is not the end of the story.

The question is whether the efficiency can be taken advantage of.


This progression was made possible by finally dropping LED entirely and working living wish overtime.

Yes, I think that's probably my most important contribution at this point and with my article. You had already done so much of the legwork for me -- I just had to make some hard choices. Once I concluded that a Wish version was the only viable route, I spent the vast majority of my time trying to cut the Gordian Knot of Pact/LED, and ultimately arrived at the logical but counter-intuitive conclusion of going non-LED. I admit losing some sleep trying to think that one through. I really like the way my list allows for grind-out games.

I'm also glad my idea of Thrun or a sb beater creature to trump GY hate has inspired you in that way as well. I was trying to find a Phyrexian Negator type creature, and concluded that Thrun or Goyf were probably among the top options.

[Final Fortune]

I ran that list through my program to try 5000 hands. It has a turn 1 winrate of about 29%. I don't know how relevant you find this. The deck is clearly geared toward wins on later turns too.

Can you gold fish this?

MD

4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Undercity Informant
4 Narcomoeba
1 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon's Breath
4 Cabal Therapy

SB

1 Balustrade Spy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Brass
1 City of Traitors
1 Peat Pog

Once you have a % for Balustrade Spy in the SB and T1 wins (defined by killing your opponent) can you compare it to a % for Undercity Informant in the SB and T1 wins (defined by killing your opponent or resolving Undercity Informant and by kiling your opponent on the following turn)? I think finding the impact of resolving Undercity Informant, go vs making Swords to Plowshares a W Counterspell is very important for understanding whether or not the opponent should keep in Sword to Plowshares in order to create a mana bottle neck.

As far as deck building observations go, I don't think +1 black card in the MD is worth the inability to SB out a Bridge from Below whenever you SB in Angel of Glory's Rise and Fiend Hunter, because when you can get yourself into position with f.e. 4 Chancellor of the Annex and 4 Lion's Eye Diamond on the play vs combo you'll need to cut 3 Cabal Therapy, and 1 Bridge from Below or lose a mana source other wise.

[hpl324]

hello everyone I test this build for a week and I would like to know what you think

1 angel of glory's rise
1 azami , lady of scroll
1 laboratory maniac
1 bridge from below
1 wild cantor
1 dread return
3 street wraith
3 cabal therapy
4 lotus petal
4 chrome mox
4 summoner's pact
4 dark ritual
4 narcomoeba
4 cabal ritual
4 gitaxian probe
4 elvish spirit guide
4 manamorphose
4 shimian spirit guide
4 balustrade spy
4 undercity informerr

sb
4 chancellor of the tangle (vs aggro deck for more mana acceleration)
4 leylin of sanctity (vs discard)
4 nature's claim (vs grave hate)
3 pact of negation

i love street wrait for draw or on chrome mox for black mana and 1 more cabal therapie is not bat my heavy controle meta

[nudon]

Can you gold fish this?

MD

4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Undercity Informant
4 Narcomoeba
1 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon's Breath
4 Cabal Therapy

SB

1 Balustrade Spy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Brass
1 City of Traitors
1 Peat Pog

Once you have a % for Balustrade Spy in the SB and T1 wins (defined by killing your opponent) can you compare it to a % for Undercity Informant in the SB and T1 wins (defined by killing your opponent or resolving Undercity Informant and by kiling your opponent on the following turn)? I think finding the impact of resolving Undercity Informant, go vs making Swords to Plowshares a W Counterspell is very important for understanding whether or not the opponent should keep in Sword to Plowshares in order to create a mana bottle neck.

As far as deck building observations go, I don't think +1 black card in the MD is worth the inability to SB out a Bridge from Below whenever you SB in Angel of Glory's Rise and Fiend Hunter, because when you can get yourself into position with f.e. 4 Chancellor of the Annex and 4 Lion's Eye Diamond on the play vs combo you'll need to cut 3 Cabal Therapy, and 1 Bridge from Below or lose a mana source other wise.

With more testing, I've noticed that sutured ghoul hinders the wish->creature kill plan. Opponents will keep their StP in to kill your ghoul or narc (doesn't trigger bridge) if they see you only milled 3 instead 4. I have come to the conclusion that lab maniac is necessary (with fiend hunter in sb). One of things to keep in mind is that azami and angel can be pitched to chrome mox if you don't need summoner's pact. You can cabal therapy away their removal later (aside from brainstorm). If going for a speed build, I'd just run 4 narcs, no bridge, 2 cabal therapy, spy in sb (more targets for therapy), and 2 tinder wall (stores chancellor mana) along with LED and sb list below.

1 Swamp
1 Peat Bog
1 Hickory Woodlot - more testing reveals that getting this with double wish hands comes up often
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
1 Balustrade Spy - having extra creature to sac is more important than leaving a naked informer
1 Desecration Demon/Thrun - phyrexian obliterator off LED if you want to go for broke
1 Fiend Hunter - reduce dead pieces for leylines
3 Leyline of Sanctity - probably the strongest sb card option available
4 Pact of Negation - gives fighting chance against blue

[Final Fortune]

With more testing, I've noticed that sutured ghoul hinders the wish->creature kill plan. Opponents will keep their StP in to kill your ghoul or narc (doesn't trigger bridge) if they see you only milled 3 instead 4. I have come to the conclusion that lab maniac is necessary (with fiend hunter in sb). One of things to keep in mind is that azami and angel can be pitched to chrome mox if you don't need summoner's pact. You can cabal therapy away their removal later (aside from brainstorm). If going for a speed build, I'd just run 4 narcs, no bridge, 2 cabal therapy, spy in sb (more targets for therapy), and 2 tinder wall (stores chancellor mana) along with LED and sb list below.

1 Swamp
1 Peat Bog
1 Hickory Woodlot - more testing reveals that getting this with double wish hands comes up often
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
1 Balustrade Spy - having extra creature to sac is more important than leaving a naked informer
1 Desecration Demon/Thrun - phyrexian obliterator off LED if you want to go for broke
1 Fiend Hunter - reduce dead pieces for leylines
3 Leyline of Sanctity - probably the strongest sb card option available
4 Pact of Negation - gives fighting chance against blue

I don't think the alternate creature kill plan is viable post-board regardless of whether or not you do or you don't play Sutured Ghoul, because your opponents should probably keep their removal in their deck post-board in order to force you to activate your Undercity Informant immediately.

Multiple Wild Cantor are probably better than any Tinder Walls

[nudon]

I don't think the alternate creature kill plan is viable post-board regardless of whether or not you do or you don't play Sutured Ghoul, because your opponents should probably keep their removal in their deck post-board in order to force you to activate your Undercity Informant immediately.

Multiple Wild Cantor are probably better than any Tinder Walls

With 11 rogues in the deck, it is absolutely crucial to make every hand as playable as possible when we draw at least 1 rogue. With this in mind, I'm starting to believe we should just accept the fact that 4 wild cantors is a requirement. From a playstyle perspective, I think we should err on the side of caution when leaving a naked informer. For this reason and sacrificing to cabal therapy, I think balustrade spy in the sb is correct. We can always switch post-board to speed up the deck. The following list is what I've been messing with and it's been the least volatile as far as mulligans are concerned. Referencing my previous post regarding sb, I think hickory woodlot now belongs in the group of must-have utility lands.

4 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Living Wish
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Laboratory Maniac
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Wild Cantor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Edit: with this new thinking in mind, I'm going to re-test manamorphose in LED's spot.

Edit #2: I remember why I hate manamorphose so much

[Smmenen]

Multiple Wild Cantor are probably better than any Tinder Walls

That's where I was. Right before I published this article I had 2 Wild Cantor, and I loved them. I cut one at the very last minute because I couldn't rationally justify or explain my position on it, except that it stores Chancellor mana and is great to flashback Therapy.

[Anusien]

Do we know yet, is the deck appreciably faster than Belcher?

[nudon]

Do we know yet, is the deck appreciably faster than Belcher?

In my opinion, it's faster than belcher (even without LED) but also far more inconsistent. The two major problems with the deck is the number of dead cards and mana fixing. I think post #335 is my best iteration for attempting the main deck. Since then, I've put spy back in the sb, went to 4-1 narc/bridge split, and reverted back to lab maniac kill. The reason why I like unmask over pact of negation is because it lets you be proactive even when you don't have a good hand. You can discard their best card and buy yourself some time. The sideboard (post #342) is in much better shape fortunately. The only thing I would change about it right now is switching to 4-3 leyline/pact ratio.

[Final Fortune]

With 11 rogues in the deck, it is absolutely crucial to make every hand as playable as possible when we draw at least 1 rogue. With this in mind, I'm starting to believe we should just accept the fact that 4 wild cantors is a requirement. From a playstyle perspective, I think we should err on the side of caution when leaving a naked informer. For this reason and sacrificing to cabal therapy, I think balustrade spy in the sb is correct. We can always switch post-board to speed up the deck. The following list is what I've been messing with and it's been the least volatile as far as mulligans are concerned. Referencing my previous post regarding sb, I think hickory woodlot now belongs in the group of must-have utility lands.

4 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Living Wish
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Laboratory Maniac
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Wild Cantor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Edit: with this new thinking in mind, I'm going to re-test manamorphose in LED's spot.

Edit #2: I remember why I hate manamorphose so much

I have issues cutting Bridge from Below just as much as I have issues playing 2 Bridge from Below, you're essentially committing yourself to play 4 Narcomoeba MD and 1 Balustrade Spy SB when having the option to play 4 Naromoeba and 1 Bridge from Below MD and 1 Undercity Informant SB is going to come up at some point.

I don't understand why you treat Cabal Therapy like a dead combo piece, Chrome Mox, Imprint Cabal Ritual, Cabal Therapy is one of my favorite lines vs Island, go and Summoner's Pact -> Wild Cantor to Flashback Cabal Therapy is a very real play. Obviously my personal experience is biased towards Sutured Ghoul, but if Sutured Ghoul lets you play a 3rd Cabal Therapy instead of a 3rd combo piece for more MD disruption and that 3rd Cabal Therapy imprints for black that's clearly better compared to a combo piece that imprints for Blue. My play test partner at least doesn't SB out Swords to Plowshares because it disrupts Undercity Informer, go.

I may try playing without Bridge from Below for awhile to see how bad it is, if we can offset 2xNarcomoeba draws with SB Balustrade Spy and 1xNarcomoeba Draws with SB Balustrade Spy and still flashback for Swords to Plowshares I may grow a pair of balls and just play 4 Narcomoeba, 1 Dread Return and the Sutured Ghoul Package as 7 dead cards because driving that number down is more important than anything else I can think of.

[nudon]

I have issues cutting Bridge from Below just as much as I have issues playing 2 Bridge from Below, you're essentially committing yourself to play 4 Narcomoeba MD and 1 Balustrade Spy SB when having the option to play 4 Naromoeba and 1 Bridge from Below MD and 1 Undercity Informant SB is going to come up at some point.

I don't understand why you treat Cabal Therapy like a dead combo piece, Chrome Mox, Imprint Cabal Ritual, Cabal Therapy is one of my favorite lines vs Island, go and Summoner's Pact -> Wild Cantor to Flashback Cabal Therapy is a very real play. Obviously my personal experience is biased towards Sutured Ghoul, but if Sutured Ghoul lets you play a 3rd Cabal Therapy instead of a 3rd combo piece for more MD disruption and that 3rd Cabal Therapy imprints for black that's clearly better compared to a combo piece that imprints for Blue. My play test partner at least doesn't SB out Swords to Plowshares because it disrupts Undercity Informer, go.

I may try playing without Bridge from Below for awhile to see how bad it is, if we can offset 2xNarcomoeba draws with SB Balustrade Spy and 1xNarcomoeba Draws with SB Balustrade Spy and still flashback for Swords to Plowshares I may grow a pair of balls and just play 4 Narcomoeba, 1 Dread Return and the Sutured Ghoul Package as 7 dead cards because driving that number down is more important than anything else I can think of.

The scenarios that I can think of where you would want to swap informer post-board are ones where I don't really want to see bridge too. If you're concerned, there's always leaving bridge in the sb too. It's not that I don't like cabal therapy. My favorite deck is Elves and I run 4 in the sb. However, I'm trying to shave any card wherever possible just like you. For that reason, I'm still going back and forth on sutured ghoul too. Have you tried ghoul + only 2 therapy or is that too risky?

There are times where drawing 2 narcs is about the worst thing ever. However, having an extra bridge only helps in the event you draw 1. I agree every shaved dead card adds so much to the deck. On another note, what do you think of geothermal crevice as a replacement for peat bog? It still gives you black mana and ramps you two but gives you the option to cast wild cantor next turn and hope it doesn't die to removal so you can win the following turn.

Edit: Instead of replacing peat bog, I can play both by just using up another sb slot. It also helps turn on tinder wall (which I'm finding is more consistent than LED with playset of cantor) on the combo turn.

[Final Fortune]

The scenarios that I can think of where you would want to swap informer post-board are ones where I don't really want to see bridge too. If you're concerned, there's always leaving bridge in the sb too. It's not that I don't like cabal therapy. My favorite deck is Elves and I run 4 in the sb. However, I'm trying to shave any card wherever possible just like you. For that reason, I'm still going back and forth on sutured ghoul too. Have you tried ghoul + only 2 therapy or is that too risky?

There are times where drawing 2 narcs is about the worst thing ever. However, having an extra bridge only helps in the event you draw 1. I agree every shaved dead card adds so much to the deck. On another note, what do you think of geothermal crevice as a replacement for peat bog? It still gives you black mana and ramps you two but gives you the option to cast wild cantor next turn and hope it doesn't die to removal so you can win the following turn.

Edit: Instead of replacing peat bog, I can play both by just using up another sb slot. It also helps turn on tinder wall (which I'm finding is more consistent than LED with playset of cantor) on the combo turn.

I don't think casting 1 Wild Cantor is as important as casting Cabal Therapy and Under city Informer simultaneously off of Peat Bog because if you resolved Living Wish then Surgical Extraction is their only out left.

I SB Undercity Informer vs any deck I SB Lion's Eye Diamond against so the risk of drawing 2xNarcomoeba increases. That said the need for Cabal Therapy decreases post-board with the alternate kill con. Maybe we're over compensating for all of the drawing 2xNarcomoeba, drawing combo pieces and imprinting Therapy on Chrome Mox scenarios with Bridge from Below and 3xCabal Therapy but at least Cabal Therapy isn't a dead draw. There is no down side to playing 3 IMO.

I am not on board with 3+ Wild Cantor, storing mana just adds utility to STP. If I want to store mana then Grim Monolith is the most logical choice. I also don't think storing mana is as much of a concern with LED and even if the mana dissipates it still soft counters Daze on Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal.

I'm not certain what best replaces Bridge, i will find something, but I don't feel the need to cut Cabal Therapy at all because you're basically letting them Force of Will your business instead of your acceleration at little risk and pact for Cantor, Flashback Therapy is kind of a big deal.

3 Narcomoeba 2 Bridge Configurations are garbage, I SB out Bridge and 3 Therapy for 4 Leyline vs jund religiously.

[nudon]

Just the beginning but this new build is so much better than before. It's still rough but goldfishing has been very good so far!

4 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Living Wish
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon Breath
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Mox Opal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
4 Grim Monolith

//Sideboard
1 Swamp
1 Peat Bog
1 Hickory Woodlot
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Balustrade Spy
1 Desecration Demon
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Fiend Hunter
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Pact of Negation

[Final Fortune]

Just the beginning but this new build is so much better than before. It's still rough but goldfishing has been very good so far!

4 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Living Wish
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon Breath
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Mox Opal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
4 Grim Monolith

//Sideboard
1 Swamp
1 Peat Bog
1 Hickory Woodlot
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Balustrade Spy
1 Desecration Demon
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Fiend Hunter
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Pact of Negation

Damn, Living Wish for Vault of Whispers in order to activate Metalcraft is a sweet, sweet idea for Vintage lists but I have no idea how it can work in Legacy, the problem with Mox Opal and Grim Monolith compared to Chancellor of the Tangle and Cabal Ritual is that Mox Opal is more conditional than Chancellor of the Tangle at the outset and Grim Monolith doesn't imprint for black mana. Actually facing an opponent with Daze is going to be a serious problem I think.

[nudon]

Damn, Living Wish for Vault of Whispers in order to activate Metalcraft is a sweet, sweet idea for Vintage lists but I have no idea how it can work in Legacy, the problem with Mox Opal and Grim Monolith compared to Chancellor of the Tangle and Cabal Ritual is that Mox Opal is more conditional than Chancellor of the Tangle at the outset and Grim Monolith doesn't imprint for black mana. Actually facing an opponent with Daze is going to be a serious problem I think.

Thanks, I had the idea to try mox opal before but dismissed it too early because I thought turning on metalcraft would be a problem. It's actually been far more consistent than I anticipated. I like this build much more than ones with chancellor of the tangle because our topdeck is now way better. Before, drawing a chancellor would be deflating. Instead, I think we can actually grind out games now. With this list, we also have the option of cutting cabal ritual altogether for utility cards like bridge, the 4th cabal therapy, and any other form of disruption again. Grim monolith is definitely worse than cabal ritual but that's part of the price we pay because I think mox opal >> chancellor of the tangle. The insane thing about mox opal is that we have 4 more sources of reusable mana now. Better yet, it can produce any color. If you haven't tried out the list, I urge you to do so. Note that there is some risk of not hitting lethal with sutured ghoul now but I think it should still be fine.

Remember that essentially any hand with a rogue or living wish is a keep because of the nature of having only 11 win-cons. This makes our mulligans WAY better than before.

[Darklingske]

The insane thing about mox opal is that we have 4 more sources of reusable mana now. Better yet, it can produce any color.

I'm not gonna dismiss the idea, but I can't aggree completely with your statement. Since Opal is legendary, having a second one drawn or in your opener is not a good thing. In this case I don't think it is a better topdeck then Chancelor since you can still imprint Chancelor on a Mox. But then again, haven't done any testing with it, so I could be completely wrong...

[nudon]

I'm not gonna dismiss the idea, but I can't aggree completely with your statement. Since Opal is legendary, having a second one drawn or in your opener is not a good thing. In this case I don't think it is a better topdeck then Chancelor since you can still imprint Chancelor on a Mox. But then again, haven't done any testing with it, so I could be completely wrong...

If you've played the deck at all, you'll know that imprinting something onto chrome mox is rarely an issue with the amount of dead cards in the deck.

[Countertoplol]

If you've played the deck at all, you'll know that imprinting something onto chrome mox is rarely an issue with the amount of dead cards in the deck.

He's talking about multiple mox opals.

[nudon]

He's talking about multiple mox opals.

Yes, I know he's referring to multiple mox opals. I am saying past turn 1, mox opals will almost always be better than chancellor of the tangle.

[MGB]

So basically speaking, the relevance of this deck in Legacy comes down to a single question:

Is the mana cost advantage - 4 mana for a Hermit vs. 4 mana *plus* 3 more mana at some later point in the game for Charbelcher activation - worth the increased exposure to graveyard hate that playing the Hermits creates?

Less cost to activate vs. more vulnerability to graveyard hate *in addition* to same level of vulnerability to anti-storm (Thalia, Thorn, Canonist, Teeg, Chalice, etc) hate.

[Final Fortune]

So basically speaking, the relevance of this deck in Legacy comes down to a single question:

Is the mana cost advantage - 4 mana for a Hermit vs. 4 mana *plus* 3 more mana at some later point in the game for Charbelcher activation - worth the increased exposure to graveyard hate that playing the Hermits creates?

Less cost to activate vs. more vulnerability to graveyard hate *in addition* to same level of vulnerability to anti-storm (Thalia, Thorn, Canonist, Teeg, Chalice, etc) hate.

Not really, because the Hermits win on the turn they are cast compared to Empty the Warrens the deck can have both MD and SB disruption in either the form of Cabal Therapy and/or Pact of Negation since it's possible to Chrome Mox, imprint Cabal Ritual and cast Cabal Therapy, go or play Undercity Informant, cast Pact of Negation and win immediately or cast Living Wish, bait counter spells because of Cavern of Souls or play another land or creature if they don't counter spell, go and cast Undercity Informant for only 3 mana and activate with Lion's Eye Diamond compared to Goblin Charbelcher and force a Spell Pierce on the card that reaches your 2nd mana sources compared to your 3rd mana source because of the 3cc of Undercity Informant. By being able to win a turn and win immediately Hermit can take its time, and by take its time I mean 1 more turn, and not let an active Stoneforge Mystic obsolete 7 out of 11 of your win conditions or force you to spin the wheel on a draw 7.

Most of the people who have compared Hermit.dec to Belcher or SI are frankly morons who haven't gold fished or play tested the deck in order to understand where the crucial differences in what mana sources and business cards the opponent has to counter and the efficiency of Pact of Negation post-board on the play. The critical weakness of Belcher is being caught in a linear play sequence vs Island, go where they are forced to play their acceleration into Daze, Spell Pierce and Force of Will or lose the efficacy of Empty the Warrens compared to being able to Cabal Therapy their opponent or bait with a Living Wish. Game 2 or 3 on the draw, Belcher has less mana efficient disruption than Hermit.dec because it has to cast Xantid Swarm and/or Autumn's Veil.

The critical difference comes down to Surgical Extraction basically being a better, free counter spell vs our deck and Tormod's Crypt being a 0 mana prison card, but Pact of Negation and Cabal Therapy help offset Surgical Extraction and Tormod's Crypt is only played in RUG as far as relevant decks go. Leyline of the Void obviously wrecks us, but nobody plays Leyline of the Void, and Deathrite Shaman, Relic of Progentius and Rest in Peace are generally too slow.

So basically, the deck is more efficient and more resilient vs counter spells than Belcher game 1, has more disruption game 2 and that is off set by how much the opponent's hate impacts your Hermit plan. The other observation Steve has made is that Lion's Eye Diamond is a much more modular card for us than it is for Belcher, we can SB it out more aggressively on the draw than Belcher can.

I also think there are possibly "choke" points where the opponent's hate doesn't matter, for instance if you play Chancellor of Annex in the SB you can try to win on turn 1 on the play with Lion's Eye Diamond in the deck and nullify their Force of Will or Surgical Extraction. I'm starting to like Chancellor of the Annex more than Leyline of Sanctity because Tormod's Crypt doesn't really exist outside of RUG in anything relevant and it sets back the clock on Deathrite Shaman a turn, and Deathrite Shaman is much more real consideration than Tormod's Crypt.

I'm not saying Hermit is strictly better than Belcher vs a real metagame, but it's strictly better than Belcher in gold fishing and game 1 vs Island decks and that has to be weighted by how much worse it is post-board vs hate. If decks like Stoneblade and RUG get a little "smarter" and split their hate between Surgical Extraction and Tormod's Crypt it'll be trouble for sure, but as long as SB hate is polarized to Surgical Extraction then Pact of Negation is pretty ridiculous.

[nudon]

Final Fortune, nice detailed explanation for people who are barely catching on. I think I have found the last card to glue our entire deck up together. Acceleration AND protection wrapped into one: Aether Vial. Forget 4 mana when you need only 1. It turns on mox opal too. Best part about it, we can lead with 4 md cabal therapy. The sb isn't done but has all of the wishboard lands already I think.

4 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Living Wish
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon Breath
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Grim Monolith
4 Æther Vial
4 Dark Ritual
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor

//Sideboard
1 Swamp
1 Peat Bog
1 Hickory Woodlot
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 City of Traitors
1 Balustrade Spy
1 Desecration Demon
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Fiend Hunter
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Edit: Informer should probably be in the sb to take advantage of vial. That means I'll probably have to cut grim monolith to make room for bridge as well.

Edit 2: Forget desecration demon/thrun when we can vial in phyrexian revoker and harmonic sliver from the wishboard!!!

Edit 3: Vial also alleviates the problem of having multiple narcs stuck in hand.

[Final Fortune]

Final Fortune, nice detailed explanation for people who are barely catching on. I think I have found the last card to glue our entire deck up together. Acceleration AND protection wrapped into one: Aether Vial. Forget 4 mana when you need only 1. It turns on mox opal too. Best part about it, we can lead with 4 md cabal therapy. The sb isn't done but has all of the wishboard lands already I think.

4 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Living Wish
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon Breath
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Grim Monolith
4 Æther Vial
4 Dark Ritual
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor

//Sideboard
1 Swamp
1 Peat Bog
1 Hickory Woodlot
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 City of Traitors
1 Balustrade Spy
1 Desecration Demon
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Fiend Hunter
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Edit: Informer should probably be in the sb to take advantage of vial. That means I'll probably have to cut grim monolith to make room for bridge as well.

Edit 2: Forget desecration demon/thrun when we can vial in phyrexian revoker and harmonic sliver from the wishboard!!!

Edit 3: Vial also alleviates the problem of having multiple narcs stuck in hand.

I think you're trolling with Aether Vial :really:

Is Mox Opal and Grim Monolith a better acceleration package than Chancellor of the Tangle and Cabal Ritual, because gold fishing aside I think you'd be unable to SB out Lion's Eye Diamond for Pact of Negation and that's kind of a big deal? Have you tried the "main list" by removing Simian Spirit Guide and Cabal Ritual for Mox Opal and Grim Monolith? They're essentially the two worst mana sources for being 1B and generating R and you need about 20 artifacts in order to guarantee Metalcraft I think.

I don't think it works the moment you have to go to game 2 or opponent's just start countering your 3rd artifact, but it's definitely a novelty.

I still have no idea what you should replace Bridge with, I've flipped between a 2nd Wild Cantor and a Grim Monolith.

[nudon]

I think you're trolling with Aether Vial :really:

Is Mox Opal and Grim Monolith a better acceleration package than Chancellor of the Tangle and Cabal Ritual, because gold fishing aside I think you'd be unable to SB out Lion's Eye Diamond for Pact of Negation and that's kind of a big deal? Have you tried the "main list" by removing Simian Spirit Guide and Cabal Ritual for Mox Opal and Grim Monolith? They're essentially the two worst mana sources for being 1B and generating R and you need about 20 artifacts in order to guarantee Metalcraft I think.

I don't think it works the moment you have to go to game 2 or opponent's just start countering your 3rd artifact, but it's definitely a novelty.

I still have no idea what you should replace Bridge with, I've flipped between a 2nd Wild Cantor and a Grim Monolith.

Sorry was searching up artifacts that could potentially fit in and thought vial could give control major problems with t1 spirit guide -> vial. However, it's probably too slow. In my testing, opal has been better over the course of the game than chancellor. I absolutely hate seeing chancellor as a topdeck. Cabal ritual is better than monolith but not by much since it doesn't work well with living wish (awkward hands like ESG, SSG, cabal ritual) while ramping you if played off of a chrome mox. Also, grim monolith is insane with city of traitors... SSG is too good to remove at this point for me since it gives me 1 unconditional mana. LED, petal, c. mox, mox opal, and grim monolith gives me 20 artifacts. Living wish -> vault of whispers or darksteel citadel provides 4 more copies as well.

If they're countering your 0 mana artifacts, then having mox opal has already helped. As far as sb-ing is concerned, I am playing around with taking out any number of the 4 therapies and bridge right now. I think that gives space for up to 3 cards. For the non-artifact build, I'd go with a 2nd wild cantor or playset of therapy if you don't already have them.

[Darklingske]

If you've played the deck at all...

Oh, don't worry, I've played the deck a lot. And not only in goldfishing, but in actual tournaments. And that gives a real feeling to how the deck performs. And that is why I'm sceptic about the Opals.


I think I have found the last card to glue our entire deck up together. Acceleration AND protection wrapped into one: Aether Vial. Forget 4 mana when you need only 1.
You're joking, right?

[nudon]

Oh, don't worry, I've played the deck a lot. And not only in goldfishing, but in actual tournaments. And that gives a real feeling to how the deck performs. And that is why I'm sceptic about the Opals.


You're joking, right?

Jokes aside, you should be able to relate how bad it feels to draw a chancellor then. While I certainly understand the skepticism regarding opals, I'll reiterate what I said before about opal + monolith >> tangle + cabal ritual. Most of the time, cabal ritual just gets imprinted onto chrome mox and this seems like a very lackluster play to me. While the artifact count is borderline right now (20; 24 including wish), the ability to generate initial black mana off of mox opal to play cabal therapy is too good in my opinion. It's too bad most of the other artifact options are trash (i.e. chromatic star, baubles, welding jar, black talismans, etc).

[Darklingske]

Jokes aside, you should be able to relate how bad it feels to draw a chancellor then. While I certainly understand the skepticism regarding opals, I'll reiterate what I said before about opal + monolith >> tangle + cabal ritual. Most of the time, cabal ritual just gets imprinted onto chrome mox and this seems like a very lackluster play to me. While the artifact count is borderline right now (20; 24 including wish), the ability to generate initial black mana off of mox opal to play cabal therapy is too good in my opinion. It's too bad most of the other artifact options are trash (i.e. chromatic star, baubles, welding jar, black talismans, etc).

I agree for most part with what you say. And yes, tangle is awful if it is drawn after the opener. But I'm concerned about the possible devastation an EE on 0 can cause if you go with a build that relies a lot on 0-mana artifacts.
On a different note: has anyone tried lotus bloom? But then again, using this would mean that we slow down by 3 turns. So that would be a no-go. It's just a bad idea.

[Final Fortune]

I agree for most part with what you say. And yes, tangle is awful if it is drawn after the opener. But I'm concerned about the possible devastation an EE on 0 can cause if you go with a build that relies a lot on 0-mana artifacts.
On a different note: has anyone tried lotus bloom? But then again, using this would mean that we slow down by 3 turns. So that would be a no-go. It's just a bad idea.

EE is a minor issue, the major issue is whether or not playing Mox Opal prevents you from SBing out Lion's Eye Diamond because the asbsence of 4x artifacts makes Mox Opal inconsistent. Even if Mox Opal and Grim Monolith are better than Chancellor of the Tangle and Cabal Ritual game 1, and I don't think that's necessarily true, they essentially invalidate the Pact of Negation plan post-board. I have really mixed feelings about whether or not Mox Opal is worth that trade off.

Edit: And I think Chancellor of the Tangle is better than Simian Spirit Guide, G > R in this deck regardless of the top decking issues.

[Tokugawa]

Just imagine about you are playing a Belcher deck, not this Maniac combo deck.

Your deck have petals, chrome moxes, and you always put LED maindeck.

Belcher itself is also an artifact.

You often want one card to produce mana twice, one for belcher, one for active the belcher the next turn.

And why you dont't play Mox Opal?

"It is inconsistant."

[Darklingske]

Just imagine about you are playing a Belcher deck.
This deck resembles Belcher, that is in the way that it also wants to win as fast as possible, but it has big differences as opposed to Belcher. For starters, belcher plays only wincons and mana-acceleration MD. This deck has protection MD added, making it a bit more resilient then Belcher.
Secondly, Belcher has 2 ways to win (EtW & Belcher) and this deck has only 1 way to win (if you don't count hardcasting a critter and beating your stupefied opponent with it to death).


Your deck have petals, chrome moxes, and you always put LED maindeck.
We've discussed why LED is not always MD a few posts back.


Belcher itself is also an artifact.
You often want one card to produce mana twice, one for belcher, one for active the belcher the next turn.
And why you dont't play Mox Opal?
And again, Belcher is not played MD in this deck (for the moment). But we are still developping the deck and trying out different strategies, so maybe this can still change. And Opal is discussed also a few posts back and that list is now being tested.
If you have tried a list, feel free to post and comment on your findings!

[Tokugawa]

This deck resembles Belcher, that is in the way that it also wants to win as fast as possible, but it has big differences as opposed to Belcher. For starters, belcher plays only wincons and mana-acceleration MD. This deck has protection MD added, making it a bit more resilient then Belcher.
Secondly, Belcher has 2 ways to win (EtW & Belcher) and this deck has only 1 way to win (if you don't count hardcasting a critter and beating your stupefied opponent with it to death).


We've discussed why LED is not always MD a few posts back.


And again, Belcher is not played MD in this deck (for the moment). But we are still developping the deck and trying out different strategies, so maybe this can still change. And Opal is discussed also a few posts back and that list is now being tested.
If you have tried a list, feel free to post and comment on your findings!

Sorry, my poor English caused some confusion...I never mean playing this deck(call it Allspells or some other name) is similar to playing a belcher.


My opinion in that reply is: Mox Opal is inconsistent, Both in belcher and Allspells.

[Final Fortune]

Sorry, my poor English caused some confusion...I never mean playing this deck(call it Allspells or some other name) is similar to playing a belcher.


My opinion in that reply is: Mox Opal is inconsistent, Both in belcher and Allspells.

It's not inconsistent MD, between Grim Monolith and Living Wish -> Vault of Whispers it's a reliable mana source, the problem is, as I stated before, that SBing out Lion's Eye Diamond for Pact of Negation is no longer possible because Mox Opal subsequently loses consistency with only 12 non Mox Opal artifacts remaining.

However, I'm at a loss for why Mox Opal hasn't been tried before in a deck like Belcher in order to replace lesser mana acceleration such as Seething Song and/or Chancellor of the Tangle with Grim Monolith and Mox Opal, perhaps it has to do with a decreasing marginal utility as you mulligan? That said, I think Mox Opal and Grim Monolith are a red herring, once you start to actually mulligan aggressively and play post-board games the seemingly superior mana acceleration falls apart spectacularly.

Another issue I'd like to bring up is the wish board, because frankly we are destroying our SB by playing 4 Lands and an alternate win condition when we could be playing 1 Balustrade Spy, 1 Swamp and anywhere between 3 and 5 more useful cards. Because altho' SBing in the Angel of Glory's Rise and Fiend Hunter kill condition allows us to reduce Cabal Therapy to 1x in the MD, cutting Cabal Therapy to 1x in the MD isn't necessarily best and if the opponent does try to target our kill condition with random, bullshit hate like Peacekeeper we could possibly SB in Goblin Charbelcher anyway.

I also think the "need" for Swamp may just be from us totally misplaying lands into Wasteland, because there's no reason to play City of Brass the turn you wish for it unless you're going to win the turn you wish for it. If you have to wait for Chrome Mox to untap, then you can just hold onto City of Brass and those mythical times the opponent has a Wasteland for your City of Brass and doesn't have a Lightning Bolt for your Undercity Informer while you wait for your land to untap are kind of bullshit.

[nudon]

It's not inconsistent MD, between Grim Monolith and Living Wish -> Vault of Whispers it's a reliable mana source, the problem is, as I stated before, that SBing out Lion's Eye Diamond for Pact of Negation is no longer possible because Mox Opal subsequently loses consistency with only 12 non Mox Opal artifacts remaining.

However, I'm at a loss for why Mox Opal hasn't been tried before in a deck like Belcher in order to replace lesser mana acceleration such as Seething Song and/or Chancellor of the Tangle with Grim Monolith and Mox Opal, perhaps it has to do with a decreasing marginal utility as you mulligan? That said, I think Mox Opal and Grim Monolith are a red herring, once you start to actually mulligan aggressively and play post-board games the seemingly superior mana acceleration falls apart spectacularly.

Another issue I'd like to bring up is the wish board, because frankly we are destroying our SB by playing 4 Lands and an alternate win condition when we could be playing 1 Balustrade Spy, 1 Swamp and anywhere between 3 and 5 more useful cards. Because altho' SBing in the Angel of Glory's Rise and Fiend Hunter kill condition allows us to reduce Cabal Therapy to 1x in the MD, cutting Cabal Therapy to 1x in the MD isn't necessarily best and if the opponent does try to target our kill condition with random, bullshit hate like Peacekeeper we could possibly SB in Goblin Charbelcher anyway.

I also think the "need" for Swamp may just be from us totally misplaying lands into Wasteland, because there's no reason to play City of Brass the turn you wish for it unless you're going to win the turn you wish for it. If you have to wait for Chrome Mox to untap, then you can just hold onto City of Brass and those mythical times the opponent has a Wasteland for your City of Brass and doesn't have a Lightning Bolt for your Undercity Informer while you wait for your land to untap are kind of bullshit.

After more extensive testing, I want to shed some [negative] light on mox opal. While the magic number of 16 blue cards works for pitching to FoW, mox opal isn't as consistent for 2 reasons: metalcraft requires 3 artifacts instead of 2 and grim monolith needs an initial investment of 2 mana. While there is definitely possibility for some explosive hands, it also hurts having grim monolith stuck in hand and not being able to turn on metalcraft. This problem is compounded with living wish hands in which we can't use summoner's pact to play grim monolith since we don't have 6 mana yet. Moreover, the double opal hand is absolutely atrocious (probably why belcher doesn't play it) as indicated in previous posts. This effort was not completely wasted though as I realized I really hate LED sometimes and I think it's worth exploring replacing LED entirely with grim monolith. The argument for this is that LED is dead unless we have a way to get up to 3 mana first. Grim monolith is 1 mana faster, stores chancellor mana, and ramps us if played off a chrome mox. Finally, pact of negation is live again.

I totally agree about destroying our sb and now think there's no reason to play more than these 5 lands: peat bog, hickory woodlot, cavern of souls, city of traitors, and city of brass (good catch about keeping it in hand). I know I haven't explained why I think hickory woodlot is a must yet but here's why. There are very many games where you'll have a hand with 2 living wish, ESG, SSG, lotus petal, and some other junk. The play would be to use the ESG + SSG and wish for woodlot, setting up a next turn wish -> rogue. I think we should just eshew the alternate win-con in the sb entirely because we still need to keep cabal therapy in to name StP. It might be better to have something like abrupt decay (pitches to chrome mox pretty nicely too).

Edit: Here's my latest list if anyone's curious.
4 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Living Wish
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon Breath
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Grim Monolith - 4 monoliths vs 3 c. ritual because it provides a lot of utility (store chancellor mana, ramp with mox, better with heavy spirit guide hand + living wish)
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
3 Pact of Negation - 3 instead of 4 because double PoN in hand is not what I want to see

Sideboard
1 City of Brass
1 Peat Bog
1 Hickory Woodlot
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
1 Balustrade Spy
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Pact of Negation
2 Dismember - specifically to deal with DRS/hate bears
2 Nature's Claim - RiP, LotV, crypt, relic, spellbomb

The only hate this deck can't beat is faerie macabre but the sb can be tweaked according to the known meta.

[Final Fortune]

After more extensive testing, I want to shed some [negative] light on mox opal. While the magic number of 16 blue cards works for pitching to FoW, mox opal isn't as consistent for 2 reasons: metalcraft requires 3 artifacts instead of 2 and grim monolith needs an initial investment of 2 mana. While there is definitely possibility for some explosive hands, it also hurts having grim monolith stuck in hand and not being able to turn on metalcraft. This problem is compounded with living wish hands in which we can't use summoner's pact to play grim monolith since we don't have 6 mana yet. Moreover, the double opal hand is absolutely atrocious (probably why belcher doesn't play it) as indicated in previous posts. This effort was not completely wasted though as I realized I really hate LED sometimes and I think it's worth exploring replacing LED entirely with grim monolith. The argument for this is that LED is dead unless we have a way to get up to 3 mana first. Grim monolith is 1 mana faster, stores chancellor mana, and ramps us if played off a chrome mox. Finally, pact of negation is live again.

I totally agree about destroying our sb and now think there's no reason to play more than these 5 lands: peat bog, hickory woodlot, cavern of souls, city of traitors, and city of brass (good catch about keeping it in hand). I know I haven't explained why I think hickory woodlot is a must yet but here's why. There are very many games where you'll have a hand with 2 living wish, ESG, SSG, lotus petal, and some other junk. The play would be to use the ESG + SSG and wish for woodlot, setting up a next turn wish -> rogue. I think we should just eshew the alternate win-con in the sb entirely because we still need to keep cabal therapy in to name StP. It might be better to have something like abrupt decay (pitches to chrome mox pretty nicely too).

Edit: Here's my latest list if anyone's curious.
4 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Living Wish
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon Breath
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Grim Monolith - 4 monoliths vs 3 c. ritual because it provides a lot of utility (store chancellor mana, ramp with mox, better with heavy spirit guide hand + living wish)
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
3 Pact of Negation - 3 instead of 4 because double PoN in hand is not what I want to see

Sideboard
1 City of Brass
1 Peat Bog
1 Hickory Woodlot
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
1 Balustrade Spy
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Pact of Negation
2 Dismember - specifically to deal with DRS/hate bears
2 Nature's Claim - RiP, LotV, crypt, relic, spellbomb

The only hate this deck can't beat is faerie macabre but the sb can be tweaked according to the known meta.

I agree, I've found the only real use of Angel of Glory's Rise and Fiend Hunder is to create MD space for SB cards post-board by being able to SB down to 1 Cabal Therapy, it's useful in the vs Jund and Junk match ups where you'd rather play 4 Leyline of Sanctity without losing speed. I've also experiemented with playing Chancellor of the Annex instead of Leyline of Sanctity just because Deathrite Shaman is a more realistic threat than Tormod's Crypt and you can use it out of the SB and on the play vs aggro-control and control in order to keep Lion's Eye Diamond in the MD.

I like Grim Monolith quite a bit, but I'm not certain I like it enough to play 4. It's a card I'd be very curious to replace Lion's Eye Diamond with just to see if that form of acceleration was any more or less consistent or utilitarian.

[VeniVidiVici]

Gemstone Mine is almost strictly superior to City of Brass as a Wish target here, no? Geothermal Crevice might be better than Woodlot/Bog too.

[Darklingske]

Gemstone Mine is almost strictly superior to City of Brass as a Wish target here, no? Geothermal Crevice might be better than Woodlot/Bog too.

I can agree on Gemstone mine, but not on Crevice. The whole purpose of playing woodlot/Bog is exactly as stated a few posts above with hands that have double Wish. Because these lands give you 2 mana a time (and this twice) makes them better then a land that gives you 1 mana and must be sacrificed to gain 2 mana.

[gozmit97]

has mind grind (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366418) been considered and if yes why don't we use it? also i have been trying some of your lists from time to time (goldfishing on cockatrice) some times altering them. here is my current list

4 chrome mox
4 lotus petal
3 balustrade spy
4 chancellor of the tangle
4 of each spirit guide
4 narcomoeba
4 undercity informer
1 sutured ghoul
3 tinder wall
2 wild cantor
1 dragon breath
3 cabal ritual
4 dark ritual
3 pact o' negation
4 pact o' summoning
3 cabal theray
1 dread return
4 living wish

sideboard:
1 balustrade spy
4 leyline o' sanctity
1 fiend hunter
1 angel o' glory's rise
2 nature's claim
1 pact o' negation
1 peat bog
1 hicory woodlot
1 city of traitors
1 city of brass
1 cavern o' souls

last but not least what does city of traitors do for us?

[nudon]

Mind grind only affects opponents. City of traitors is for hands with 1 black, 1 green, 1 other initial mana source, and undercity informer. Living wish allows us to grab city of traitors and play undercity informer the same turn. You can then reuse city of traitors next turn to activate informer's ability. It also can be used to play grim monolith the same turn living wish was cast (useful for double living wish hands).

[Stooorm]

Hi guys,

I come from Italy and I love this deck because it is a BomB infact you can close game very quickly:

Actually this is my list:

Main Deck:60

4 Street Wraith
1 Wild Cantor
4 Undercity Informer
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Narcomoeba
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Balustrade Spy
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
1 Dread Return
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Pact of Negation
1 Worldly Tutor
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Bridge from Below
2 Manamorphose

Sideboard:15

SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Pact of Negation
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Dread Return
SB: 1 Laboratory Maniac
SB: 3 Chancellor of the Annex


Metagame of Italy is full of UW rest in peace, Bug, Canadian, Maverik and Death and Texas!

Hard Life for Combo :)

What do u think of my list?

[Modus Pwnens]

After more extensive testing, I want to shed some [negative] light on mox opal. While the magic number of 16 blue cards works for pitching to FoW, mox opal isn't as consistent for 2 reasons: metalcraft requires 3 artifacts instead of 2 and grim monolith needs an initial investment of 2 mana. While there is definitely possibility for some explosive hands, it also hurts having grim monolith stuck in hand and not being able to turn on metalcraft. This problem is compounded with living wish hands in which we can't use summoner's pact to play grim monolith since we don't have 6 mana yet. Moreover, the double opal hand is absolutely atrocious (probably why belcher doesn't play it) as indicated in previous posts. This effort was not completely wasted though as I realized I really hate LED sometimes and I think it's worth exploring replacing LED entirely with grim monolith. The argument for this is that LED is dead unless we have a way to get up to 3 mana first. Grim monolith is 1 mana faster, stores chancellor mana, and ramps us if played off a chrome mox. Finally, pact of negation is live again.

I totally agree about destroying our sb and now think there's no reason to play more than these 5 lands: peat bog, hickory woodlot, cavern of souls, city of traitors, and city of brass (good catch about keeping it in hand). I know I haven't explained why I think hickory woodlot is a must yet but here's why. There are very many games where you'll have a hand with 2 living wish, ESG, SSG, lotus petal, and some other junk. The play would be to use the ESG + SSG and wish for woodlot, setting up a next turn wish -> rogue. I think we should just eshew the alternate win-con in the sb entirely because we still need to keep cabal therapy in to name StP. It might be better to have something like abrupt decay (pitches to chrome mox pretty nicely too).

Edit: Here's my latest list if anyone's curious.
4 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Living Wish
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon Breath
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Grim Monolith - 4 monoliths vs 3 c. ritual because it provides a lot of utility (store chancellor mana, ramp with mox, better with heavy spirit guide hand + living wish)
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
3 Pact of Negation - 3 instead of 4 because double PoN in hand is not what I want to see

Sideboard
1 City of Brass
1 Peat Bog
1 Hickory Woodlot
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
1 Balustrade Spy
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Pact of Negation
2 Dismember - specifically to deal with DRS/hate bears
2 Nature's Claim - RiP, LotV, crypt, relic, spellbomb

The only hate this deck can't beat is faerie macabre but the sb can be tweaked according to the known meta.

I've been goldfishing with your list, and the only real change I made was changing Balustrade Spy for Undercity informer in the sb (more likely to combo out turn 2 that way).

Out of 151 goldfishs, i was able to combo on turn 1 exactly 103 times. I have no idea if Belcher or SI can pull out a higher turn 1 kill chance than this list, but those 66% sounds good enough to me. I mulled very Agressively to achieve that result (had lots of 4-5 cards hands that were able to T1-T2 kill)

Also, I've been thinking about running a Wasteland/GhostQuarter in the SB, to have an out to T1 Maze of Ith. I don't know if the 3rd Therapy is really required too, since you won't have enough creatures to cast those AND Dread return Sutured Ghoul.

Btw, I hope you guys can understand my "English".

[nudon]

I've been goldfishing with your list, and the only real change I made was changing Balustrade Spy for Undercity informer in the sb (more likely to combo out turn 2 that way).

Out of 151 goldfishs, i was able to combo on turn 1 exactly 103 times. I have no idea if Belcher or SI can pull out a higher turn 1 kill chance than this list, but those 66% sounds good enough to me. I mulled very Agressively to achieve that result (had lots of 4-5 cards hands that were able to T1-T2 kill)

Also, I've been thinking about running a Wasteland/GhostQuarter in the SB, to have an out to T1 Maze of Ith. I don't know if the 3rd Therapy is really required too, since you won't have enough creatures to cast those AND Dread return Sutured Ghoul.

Btw, I hope you guys can understand my "English".

Hi Modus! I'm glad you tested and like my list. I thought about having wasteland in the sb as well but ultimately decided not to because maze of ith is usually only played as a singleton in knight of the reliquary decks (43 lands too but rare to see those). Also, the likelihood your opponent plays maze on the first few turns is low. That said, I think it's fine if others included it.

The 3rd therapy is a direct result of me running balustrade spy in the sb and not including bridge from below. Sometimes, I'll run into the situation where I'll have a therapy and a combo piece in hand. While the second therapy can discard the combo piece, I felt it was nice to be able to name FoW/StP with the 3rd therapy. Playing therapy off a chrome mox came up quite often too. However, if you want more speed by swapping spy and informer in the sb, I agree the 3rd therapy isn't necessary.

No worries, I understood your English just fine. :)

[Modus Pwnens]

Hi Modus! I'm glad you tested and like my list. I thought about having wasteland in the sb as well but ultimately decided not to because maze of ith is usually only played as a singleton in knight of the reliquary decks (43 lands too but rare to see those). Also, the likelihood your opponent plays maze on the first few turns is low. That said, I think it's fine if others included it.

The 3rd therapy is a direct result of me running balustrade spy in the sb and not including bridge from below. Sometimes, I'll run into the situation where I'll have a therapy and a combo piece in hand. While the second therapy can discard the combo piece, I felt it was nice to be able to name FoW/StP with the 3rd therapy. Playing therapy off a chrome mox came up quite often too. However, if you want more speed by swapping spy and informer in the sb, I agree the 3rd therapy isn't necessary.

No worries, I understood your English just fine. :)
Yea, maybe i shouldn't bother with Wasteland.
So, which one do you think is a better replacement for the 3rd Therapy: Deathrite shaman or the 4th Cabal Rit? Or something else entirely?

[nudon]

Yea, maybe i shouldn't bother with Wasteland.
So, which one do you think is a better replacement for the 3rd Therapy: Deathrite shaman or the 4th Cabal Rit? Or something else entirely?

If you're cutting the 3rd therapy, I would definitely go with the 4th cabal ritual. Deathrite shaman is only good if you're running unmask too. However, the card disadvantage of unmask really hurts with all of the dead cards in the deck. A second wild cantor for increased mana fixing and serve as a creature to sacrifice (for double narc hands) is a possibility too. Those would be my candidates if I cut the 3rd therapy. Hope this helps.

[Final Fortune]

I don't think Balustrade Spy vs Undercity Informant in the SB makes much of a difference in Legacy vs aggro-control because you're not going to be "slow rolling" Living Wish -> Undericty Informant -> Activate over three turns like you are in Vintage and expecting to win thru' a Lightning Bolt, but Balustrade Spy makes the deck more consistent in terms of having the bodies to sacrifice to Cabal Therapy without playing Bridge from Below. You can always trade places with Balustrade Spy and Undercity Informant post-board when you SB in Angel of Glory's Rise and Fiend Hunter anyway.

I've gone down to a package of 4 Narcomoeba, 1 Dread Return, 1 Sutured Ghoul, 1 Dragon's Breath and 2 Cabal Therapy in the MD as well because Cabal Therapy is not a reliable disruption spell and good opponent's will Force of Will the Dark Ritual instead of risk the Cabal Therapy regardless of how many copies you're playing in your deck (and they can't know for certain anyway)

One of the other things I've noticed is that when you're SBing out the Sutured Ghoul package and SBing in the Angel of Glory's Rise package is that Xantid Swarm is an option for disruption, and vs Esper Blade or decks that primarily rely on Surgical Extraction for their graveyard hate you can just roll over them. It's hands down the most efficient disruption card you can play after Pact of Negation, I've thought a lot about whether or not we should play the Angel of Glory's Rise kill condition in the MD just to be able to play Xantid Swarm and Lion's Eye Diamond MD with Pact of Negation in the SB but you only have like two MD slots for Xantid Swarm with the 3 card kill condition and the 2nd Cabal Therapy has more utility than the extra kill condition piece when drawn so meh.

Regardless, my SBing plan vs anything blue is pretty much + Angel of Glory's Rise, Fiend Hunter and 4x Xantid Swarm, which justifies the use of Angel of Glory's Rise and Fiend Hunter in the SB to me now because for awhile I was just never bothering to SB in the alternate kill because Ghoul got the job done all the same.

I have like 3 open spots in the MD right now and I have no idea what to use them on, Wild Cantors, Tinder Walls and Grim Monoliths seem like the best bet but I think something like 2 Unmask, 1 Deathrite Shaman could be interesting because it increases the black count for Chrome Mox and puts the density of your disruption to like 4 Pact of Negation, 2 Unmask and 2 Cabal Therapy pre-board. I'm really skeptical about the utility of Deathrite Shaman tho' becaust casting it is pretty much bull shit unless you're recurring a Cabal Therapy and I can't really find these hands where imprinting for Black off of a Summoner's Pact does anything that a Wild Cantor wouldn't. Singleton Unmask seems pretty good tho' for filler.

[nudon]

Extending beyond tempo decks like RUG, I think balustrade spy in the sb doesn't make much of a difference in general as far as speed in concerned. I personally like having the extra creature to sacrifice too. Glad to see you've finally taken the leap of faith and dropped bridge as well. :) Maybe I should go ahead and drop the 3rd therapy...

With 4 xantid swarms, fiend hunter kill, and 5 utility lands in the sb, I see only 4 spots left for leyline of sanctity and permanent-based gy hate. This seems kind of thin.

I would definitely go with grim monolith since it's extremely important not to waste chancellor mana on turn 1. The real value of DRS in this deck is finding it with summoner's pact to pitch to unmask. Unless you're running multiple unmask, I agree DRS isn't worth it. A singleton unmask is probably not a bad idea. With the high number of dead cards in the deck and chrome mox, losing further card advantage with multiple unmask hurts a lot.

[Final Fortune]

Extending beyond tempo decks like RUG, I think balustrade spy in the sb doesn't make much of a difference in general as far as speed in concerned. I personally like having the extra creature to sacrifice too. Glad to see you've finally taken the leap of faith and dropped bridge as well. :) Maybe I should go ahead and drop the 3rd therapy...

With 4 xantid swarms, fiend hunter kill, and 5 utility lands in the sb, I see only 4 spots left for leyline of sanctity and permanent-based gy hate. This seems kind of thin.

I would definitely go with grim monolith since it's extremely important not to waste chancellor mana on turn 1. The real value of DRS in this deck is finding it with summoner's pact to pitch to unmask. Unless you're running multiple unmask, I agree DRS isn't worth it. A singleton unmask is probably not a bad idea. With the high number of dead cards in the deck and chrome mox, losing further card advantage with multiple unmask hurts a lot.

My SB is usually,

1 Balustrade Spy or Undercity Informer
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Gemstone Mine
1 City of Traitors
1 Peat Bog
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Fiend Hunter
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Which I think is optimal until people bring Leyline of the Void to tournaments, most decks are using Surgical Extraction for Snapcaster or Relic of Progenitus vs Tarmogoyf in SBs with Tormod's Crypt only showing up consistently in RUG so I think hedging against counter magic and Surgical Extraction with Pact of Negation and Xantid Swarm, protecting against discard, Storm and Tormod's Crypt with Leyline of Sanctity and relying on speed vs everything else is the most logical way to build your SB.

As much as I like Lion's Eye Diamond, and I like Lion's Eye Diamond a lot, I think the deck's main selling point is its ability to use cost efficient disruption when compared to Belcher so I'm going with Pact of Negation in the MD.

As for the other 3 MD cards, I go back and forth on liking Grim Monolith and disliking Grim Monolith because of the 2cc, colorless mana and being unable to imprint it. I think I'm going to go with 4 Wild Cantor MD for awhile just to see how it will effect turn 2 wins and add to the utility of Cabal Ritual and to a lesser extent Cabal Therapy

[nudon]

Have you tried hickory woodlot? I actually wish for it pretty often in my testing. While I'll agree that the most commonly boarded in gy hate are surgical extraction, tormod's crypt, and relic of progenitus right now, none of your sb cards stop relic. Also, I think it's very risky not to have an answer for DRS and to a lesser extent scavenging ooze. Having speed helps but xantid swarm requires a full turn setup and an additional green mana. This goes against your boarding ideology of trying to get there with speed. Aside from LofV, faerie macabre is unbeatable too if people started using those again.

I like LED too but not so much in this build (useless with balustrade spy in opener) and definitely agree that pact of negation should be MD material (though I only run 3). I've rarely found imprinting something on chrome mox to be a problem in my testing. I ran 4 wild cantor for awhile just to see what kind of improvement it had on mana fixing. The difference was noticeable but so was the drawback of card disadvantage. I'd often be short of mana as a result.

[Final Fortune]

Have you tried hickory woodlot? I actually wish for it pretty often in my testing. While I'll agree that the most commonly boarded in gy hate are surgical extraction, tormod's crypt, and relic of progenitus right now, none of your sb cards stop relic. Also, I think it's very risky not to have an answer for DRS and to a lesser extent scavenging ooze. Having speed helps but xantid swarm requires a full turn setup and an additional green mana. This goes against your boarding ideology of trying to get there with speed. Aside from LofV, faerie macabre is unbeatable too if people started using those again.

I like LED too but not so much in this build (useless with balustrade spy in opener) and definitely agree that pact of negation should be MD material (though I only run 3). I've rarely found imprinting something on chrome mox to be a problem in my testing. I ran 4 wild cantor for awhile just to see what kind of improvement it had on mana fixing. The difference was noticeable but so was the drawback of card disadvantage. I'd often be short of mana as a result.

Adding SB cards to address Rest in Peace, Deathrite Shaman and Relic of Progenitus isn't critical compared to addressing counter magic, discard, Surgical Extraction and Tormod's Crypt because counter magic and discard are more abundant than hate and Surgical Extraction and Tormod's Crypt either leave no window to win before they resolve or require you to be on the play. Rest in Peace, Deathrite Shaman and Relic of Progenitus do nothing vs a turn 1 hand on the draw or a turn 2 hand on the play, which makes speed, not answers, the best strategy. I'd sooner have a Lion's Eye Diamond in hand than I would a Nature's Claim or Deathmark vs Relic of Progenitus or Deathrite Shaman.

The only decks that play Relic of Progenitus are decks that don't play Tarmogoyf or Snapcaster Mage as far as I can tell, which is like Goblins, and there's pretty much no way for Goblins to beat you in a 3 game match even if they draw Relic of Progenitus. Deathrite Shaman doesn't scare me as much as Thoughtseize does because at least when the opponent goes Deathrite Shaman, go I have an 8 card hand in order to win the game on my turn.

Vs BUG style decks I think we just lose, you can't really deal with every angle of attack between Force of Will, Thoughtseize and Deathrite Shaman with any boarding plan. I think you either go for sheer speed with Lion's Eye Diamond or you try to pin them with Chancellor of the Annex for a turn and pretty much leave them to a Force or no Force proposition even when you are on the draw.

So, you try to play the control game with Pact of Negation and Xantid Swarm vs decks that use Surgical Extraction, play Leyline of Sanctity vs the decks that use discard and anything that shows up with T2 graveyard disruption just race. If we get into an ugly match up that's like FoW, discard and DRS we really don't have any dominant boarding strategy except maybe 4 Chancellor of the Annex and 4 Lion's Eye Diamond and being fast as hell. That may end up being a better way to go than Leyline of Sanctity, because even tho' you have no answer to potential Tormod's Crypts it seems like the least played hate card next to Leyline of the Void, it's never playing in 4x except for maybe in Affinity and you can still win coin flips against it thru' out the course of a match.

My philosophy is basically deal with the shit that impacts me turn 0 or turn 1 and everything that doesn't do anything until turn 2 you just hope to race with the deck's pretty absurd speed. I definitely think BUG is our worst match up for obvious reasons.

I really don't know what to do with those 3 slots, right now I'm looking at Gitaxian Probe for more pseudo protection or a Xantid Swarm/LED MD and cutting down to a single Cabal Therapy.

[nudon]

I agree that addressing counter magic, discard, and t0/t1 hate (surgical, crypt, spellbomb) should be prioritized above the other gy hate cards. If you're going to try to win through non-blue decks with speed, I think chancellor of the annex would be better than leyline of sanctity in the sb and might deserve more consideration than pact of negation for md protection. It still stops t1 discard, spellbomb, and surgical (on the play). However, it gives up beating surgical on the draw and crypt at the expense of fighting through t1 DRS. Because DRS is more prevalent than either surgical or crypt, I believe this is worth it. Furthermore, the MD pact of negations already handle the surgical case. If you're going play LED, I think it has to be main deck and accompanied by chancellor as you indicated.

Against FoW decks, how you tried playing pact of negation in conjunction with chancellor of the annex? If so, do you think the xantid swarm strategy does it better? I'm going to try to craft a new sb gameplan in the next few days and see what your take is on it.

I don't think probe or cutting down to 1 therapy is a good idea. Because of the high density of dead cards in this deck (including non-opener tangles and rogues), probe has a significant chance of drawing into trash. Cutting down to 1 therapy is downright dangerous in my opinion. A hand with therapy and any non-narc combo piece is now unplayable.

[Final Fortune]

I agree that addressing counter magic, discard, and t0/t1 hate (surgical, crypt, spellbomb) should be prioritized above the other gy hate cards. If you're going to try to win through non-blue decks with speed, I think chancellor of the annex would be better than leyline of sanctity in the sb and might deserve more consideration than pact of negation for md protection. It still stops t1 discard, spellbomb, and surgical (on the play). However, it gives up beating surgical on the draw and crypt at the expense of fighting through t1 DRS. Because DRS is more prevalent than either surgical or crypt, I believe this is worth it. Furthermore, the MD pact of negations already handle the surgical case. If you're going play LED, I think it has to be main deck and accompanied by chancellor as you indicated.

Against FoW decks, how you tried playing pact of negation in conjunction with chancellor of the annex? If so, do you think the xantid swarm strategy does it better? I'm going to try to craft a new sb gameplan in the next few days and see what your take is on it.

I don't think probe or cutting down to 1 therapy is a good idea. Because of the high density of dead cards in this deck (including non-opener tangles and rogues), probe has a significant chance of drawing into trash. Cutting down to 1 therapy is downright dangerous in my opinion. A hand with therapy and any non-narc combo piece is now unplayable.

I agree on 2xCabal Therapy, I had issues drawing multiple pieces with the MD Angel of Glory's rise combo and the number of black cards for Chrome Mox has become so low that I'm leaning towards Unmask(s) again.

I disagree with Chancellor of the Annex in the MD, it's awful on the draw vs aggro-control and doesn't protect turn 2 wins. Chancellor of the Annex in the SB is reasonable and I think I prefer it to Leyline of Sanctity because it's an answer to Thoughtseize and Deathrite Shaman on the draw and on the play it's an answer to everything. My only hesitation is that Chancellor of the Annex has less utility than Xantid Swarm on the draw vs aggro-control and it doesn't protect turn 2 wins, which become more common after SBing out Lion's Eye Diamond so they aren't directly comparable. Running 4 Chancellor of the Annex and 4 Lion's Eye Diamond on the play is about the most unfair thing you can do in Magic tho', it punishes their mulligans into disruption and hate so incredibly hard.

I'm not worried about Deathrite Shaman, a lot of the time I wonder whether or not the best counter vs Deathrite Shaman is Lion's Eye Diamond and whether or not the deck should just "flip" vs Thoughtseize and dedicate all of its SB vs Force of Will and Surgical Extraction.

I'm really tempted to try something off base like Pact of Negation and Lion's Eye Diamond MD even if they have virtually no synergy together when using Living Wish for the SB space to try out Swarms and Chancellors and Pacts and LEDs in the same deck. It sounds kind of counter intuitive, but considering how much every card has sucked in those 3 open slots I have I think I'm willing to roll the dice on LED and Pact both being in the main.

[nudon]

Using your suggestion of speed to bypass slower graveyard hate, here are my changes. In the main deck, I swapped pact of negations out for chancellor of the annex (dropping down to 2 cabal therapies to complete the play-set). Though worse against blue decks, it is better against everything else and makes it very difficult for you to lose to swamp.dec because it beats t1 thoughtseize/DRS. I also swapped grim monolith for LED and have a 4-3 cabal ritual/LED split. The reason why I didn't want 4 LEDs is because it is far worse than any other mana source in absence of living wish.

Here is my updated sb with a few brief explanations:
1 Swamp - no need to generate non-black mana
1 Peat Bog
1 Hickory Woodlot
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
1 Balustrade Spy
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Pact of Negation
1 Desecration Demon - hedge against leyline of the void, t1 DRS/crypt/spellbomb on the draw

Boarding plan for game 2:
Blue decks: -3 LED, -1 chancellor of the annex, +4 pact of the negation
Black decks (on the draw): -3 LED, +3 leyline of sanctity
Combo decks with targeted kill (on the draw): -3 LED, -1 chancellor of the annex, +4 leyline of sanctity
Combo decks with targeted kill (on the play): -3 chancellor of the annex, +3 leyline of sanctity
Miscellaneous: none

While on the draw against blue and black decks, this leaves us with 7 free disruption spells post-board. However, we can simply outrace any hate coming out of swamp.dec for game 3 by reverting back to the main deck configuration. The main benefit of playing chancellor is that it improves our BUG matchup. Though they have access to spell pierce, DRS, and thoughtseize, they won't be able to play all of them due to mana. Chancellor negates all of those cards t1 and leaves FoW and surgical extraction (post-board) as their only outs. I would follow the "blue deck" boarding guide against BUG decks simply because counters scare me more than discard. They are most likely going to board into more counters anyways. Desecration demon is by far the weakest card in the sb but I think it's necessary to punish players for mulligans into hate. In those instances, I think a living wish into demon may actually get there. The 4th leyline of sanctity may not be necessary as well but I think it hoses storm enough to warrant the inclusion.

Overall, I believe this boarding strategy improves our BUG and discard matchup. Furthermore, though chancellor doesn't protect turn 2 wins, slowing your opponent by a full turn may be enough against cards like DRS, RiP, relic, and general discard. I also like it better than xantid swarm because it doesn't require mana and your opponent may leave in their StP anyways.

[bone123]

I still don't get in which situation you would want to wish for Woodlot. Could you explain it a bit more?

I want to share some experience:
I've been playing with Stephens list last Saturday and it has been my worst Legacy experience so far.

Everything felt so bad and wrong, hands were aweful, topdeck was equally worthless.

A short summary of what has happened:
Match 1 BUG:
Game 1: Turn 1 Combo into FoW, couldn't find cards for a second try, got everything but mana
Game 2: Mulled to 4 and loss

Match 2 Enchantress:
Two easy turn one wins

Match 3 white Miracle:
Game 1: He wins the roll, mulled to 5, I'm am unable to combo turn 1 and he puts down a Rest in Peace turn two
Game 2: Mulled to 4, he tutors a Rest in Peace

Match 4 Maverick:
Game 1: He wins the roll and plays a Dryad turn 1
Game 2: Turn 3 Belcher win
Game 3: He plays a Revoker naming Belcher and one round before I've got enough mana to wish me a rogue he plays a Dryad

Match 5 U-Control:
Game 1: Mulled to 4, Combo into FoW, can't recover against Counterbalance and Jace
Game 2: Turn 1 Combo win, he had no FoW
Game 3: Lost a turn one City of Traitors to a Wasteland, turn 6 or 7 Belcher try with Pact ready but it fails to the stupid amount of counters on his hand

Had only two games without Mulligan...

[nudon]

Stephen's list isn't optimized so I would play either my list or Final Fortune's. Even then, both of us haven't worked out all the kinks in the deck yet either. Hickory woodlot is in the sb for double living wish hands with black mana (i.e. lotus petal or chrome mox). You can use tangle/ESG/SSG/chrome mox mana during your first turn to wish for woodlot. This allows you to t2 wish for balustrade spy off the woodlot mana, setting up a t3 kill. Furthermore, in a mana starved hand with double wish and 1 rogue. You can t1 wish for woodlot + t2 wish for peat bog to set up t3 kill.

[nudon]

Success for this deck in a larger tournament setting: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=4795&d=227708

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Undercity Informer
4 Street Wraith
4 Narcomoeba
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls

4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Pact of Negation
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
1 Worldly Tutor

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
1 Grim Monolith

SIDEBOARD
4 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Seething Song
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Rite of Flame

I would definitely run the full play-set of EtW and switch to the sutured ghoul kill in the 8 win-con build. That said, hard to nit-pick a top4 finish. Congrats to Tonio!

[Final Fortune]

So I'm becoming a big, big fan of MD Chancellor of the Annex in turn 1 combo decks after facing UBx aggro-control decks, because if you win the coin flip then you can counter the opponent's Force of Will and play with Lion's Eye Diamond or if you lose the coin flip you can restrict them to Force of Will as their only out and delay Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek/Duress until turn 2 and Deathrite Shaman until turn 2. It has a lot of advantges, namely it's disruption vs Force of Will decks, Thoughtseize decks and Force of Will and Thoughtseize decks that doesn't require you to cast it, pay for it, remove another card from your hand for it and you can use it with the Sutured Ghoul kill condition.

I've been using it MD in Belcher, SI and now Hermit and I think it has been the most consistent form of disruption/protection that I've played so far, and while it's obviously frustrating to play Chancellor of the Annex on the draw, see an Island and then cast your combo into a Force of Will compared to discarding your opponent pre-emptively or countering your opponent reactively, it's the only card that can protect you from Thoughtseize, which is often just as devastating, and helps reduce the odds of the opponent being able to Force of Will you on the draw because they can't Brainstorm or Ponder into one. Also vs aggro-control, it frees up the SB for a full 4 Pact of Negation, Xantid Swarm package in order to grind out opponents on the draw and on the play we can either go for it with Chancellor of the Annex and Lion's Eye Diamond or Chancellor of the Annex and Pact of Negation.

I've been using Chancellor of the Annex in Belcher, SI and Hermit MD for about a week and I think the card is the real deal for any combo deck that wants to go off turn 1 or bust.

[Tokugawa]

Reprint of U & G pacts made this deck more budget-attractive.:cool:

[yugular]

It seems that there are two different versions of this deck. One with Living Wish sb and one that is posted two posts up. Is there a way to play the deck without LED? LED is 130tix online and I can't currently afford it but I have about 98% of all the cards that I have seen in other lists. What do I need to take into account when building the deck if I drop LED completely from the 75?

[phazonmutant]

It seems that there are two different versions of this deck. One with Living Wish sb and one that is posted two posts up. Is there a way to play the deck without LED? LED is 130tix online and I can't currently afford it but I have about 98% of all the cards that I have seen in other lists. What do I need to take into account when building the deck if I drop LED completely from the 75?

a) This is the forum for budget decks: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?56-Cavius-Casual-and-Budget-Forum
b) I believe Menendian posted a list that cut LEDs at some point. His article here was an earlier version of that: http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=3745

[nudon]

First and foremost, I haven't worked on the deck since my last thread post. Driving home from work yesterday, I was thinking if only there was a way to get rid of all the dead cards in the deck (4x narc, cabal therapy, dread return, win-con package). Any engine would have to work from the grave yard after dumping the library with one of the rogues. As I pondered, I realized that there have been some important printings since cephalid breakfast went away. It hit me there was already a card in legacy that could serve as the primary engine: Past in Flames. However, generating 5+ mana in addition to the initial 4 is unpractical. There needed to be a way to shrink the initial investment. Playing around with Memory's Journey, I realized 3x LED could be shuffled back into the library to provide the extra boost. Going one step further, I threw in Deep Analysis to complete the combo.

1. Mill deck with rogue. (4 mana)
2. Sacrifice balustrade spy to cabal therapy to name FoW, thalia, gsz->gaddock teeg, canonist, etc. (4 mana)
3. Target 3 LEDs with memory's journey. (5 mana)
4. Draw LED next turn and crack for blue mana
5. Flashback deep analysis to draw 2 LEDs (7 mana, 1 blue floating)
6. Crack LEDs for red and black mana (1 blue, 3 red, and 3 black floating)
7. Flashback PiF (2 black floating)
8. Flashback dark and cabal rituals for large storm count
9. Flashback tendrils ftw

Here is the decklist I've come up with on short notice:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
2 Grim Monolith
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
4 Manamorphose
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Memory's Journey
1 Deep Analysis
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Undercity Informer
4 Balustrade Spy

Though unlikely, it's possible to go off all in 1 turn as well if you can generate 7 mana (including blue). This will most likely require using LED in conjunction of undercity informer. The package requires 5 cards (cabal therapy -> tendrils). This reduces 4+ dead cards and makes goblin charbelcher main deck much more viable. My list is definitely sub-optimal as the protection package hasn't been incorporated yet and summoner's pact is sometimes awkward. However, I think this avenue has some potential and is worth exploring.

[DireLemming]

Cool development. It's starting to remind me of Doomsday Tendrils lists. On that note it almost certainly needs Gitaxian Probe; with Probe in hand the combo cost goes down to a very manageable 5 in a single turn (even if you need LED to pay for Informer, you can do the whole sequence in response to Probe).

[nudon]

Thanks for pointing out the probe trick. I've actually moved towards probe already in my testing since chancellor of the tangle is so inconsistent and I want to abuse mox opal. That said, I think you'll still have to cycle probe/wraith most of the time in order to dig for what you need. Here's my updated list:

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith
4 Dark Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Memory's Journey
1 Deep Analysis
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy

Edit: Just wanted to point out that you can win in 2 turns with 4 mana if mox opal/chrome mox are in play (generating green) and summoner's pact wasn't used.

[Bahamuth]

I was just going to post that this deck really wants to have Opals.

You might consider replacing the Tendrils with a Burning Wish. Wish-> EtW is a viable option, and you can still do Journey ->3 LED in deck, Probe, LED, Analysis, 2 LEDS -> 7 mana, use 4 for PiF and 1 to cast all your rituals. You have the required red always available. It also allows you to board into an Empty the Warrens plan postboard a little easier, which I think is a consideration to make this deck must more potent.

[kingtk3]

Sorry for the noob question but I've never played this deck or belcher: what is the purpose of wild cantor?

[DireLemming]

Sorry for the noob question but I've never played this deck or belcher: what is the purpose of wild cantor?
It allows you to transform Spirit Guide (and Chancellor) mana to B which tends to be the bottleneck.

[phazonmutant]

Cool development. It's starting to remind me of Doomsday Tendrils lists. On that note it almost certainly needs Gitaxian Probe; with Probe in hand the combo cost goes down to a very manageable 5 in a single turn (even if you need LED to pay for Informer, you can do the whole sequence in response to Probe).

Agreed! This is very interesting. I was going to suggest the Probes and Wraiths too, but looks like everyone got to the same place.

Is Summoner's Pact right for this deck if you're planning on passing the turn?

[JPoJohnson]

I've seen lists with Bridge from Below in them. Has there been discussion in this thread regarding that option?

[nudon]

I was just going to post that this deck really wants to have Opals.

You might consider replacing the Tendrils with a Burning Wish. Wish-> EtW is a viable option, and you can still do Journey ->3 LED in deck, Probe, LED, Analysis, 2 LEDS -> 7 mana, use 4 for PiF and 1 to cast all your rituals. You have the required red always available. It also allows you to board into an Empty the Warrens plan postboard a little easier, which I think is a consideration to make this deck must more potent.

EtW doesn't work because you've already milled your whole deck and can't afford to draw next turn. Moreover, it doesn't work with summoner's pact.


Agreed! This is very interesting. I was going to suggest the Probes and Wraiths too, but looks like everyone got to the same place.

Is Summoner's Pact right for this deck if you're planning on passing the turn?

Thanks! I know pact is sometimes very awkward but I believe it's necessary since we need the initial mana and mana-fixing. On the bright side, it works very well with belcher and if you're planning on going off all in one turn (better now with the addition of probe and wraith).


I've seen lists with Bridge from Below in them. Has there been discussion in this thread regarding that option?

Bridge from below was cut a long time ago in the dread return version because the number of dead cards is backbreaking.

Also, I've figured out how to beat leyline of sanctity with the following sideboard transformation: -1 PiF, -1 tendrils, -1 belcher/other, +1 memory's journey, +1 deep analysis, +1 laboratory maniac.

After step 5 (flashing back deep analysis #1), crack LEDs for blue and green mana (4 blue, 3 green floating). Use the green to flashback memory's journey #2 targeting street wraith and laboratory manic (4 blue, 2 green floating). Flashback deep analysis #2 (2 blue, 2 green floating) to draw wraith and maniac. Play maniac and keep wraith in hand. Respond to any relevant thing (removal, discard, etc.) your opponent does or the summoner's pact trigger by cycling wraith.

[Bahamuth]

EtW doesn't work because you've already milled your whole deck and can't afford to draw next turn. Moreover, it doesn't work with summoner's pact.

I am of course talking about the cases where you naturally draw the Burning Wish. I'm arguing that replacing the Tendrils with the Burning Wish is just better.

[nudon]

I am of course talking about the cases where you naturally draw the Burning Wish. I'm arguing that replacing the Tendrils with the Burning Wish is just better.

Sorry, I misinterpreted what you meant. That's actually a great idea! :) Cards to potentially add to the sideboard: tendrils, EtW, pyroclasm, hull breach, shattering spree, chainer's edit.

[DireLemming]

I wouldn't go overboard for a one-of you can't search for.
Death Wish might actually be better here as it allows you to grab Lab Man and is less cumbersome with regards to post-PiF mana. Natural storming ability becomes a bit worse, but that wasn't all that good to begin with (aside from the one-of wish there is also about 0.3 probability of bricking on the draw spell) and from my experience with SI, overall mana is rarely the problem.

[Bahamuth]

I can't come up with any scenario where the red mana requirement from Burning Wish is ever a problem, apart from the one case where you use no LEDs at all, which is extremely unlikely. My argument isn't only that it is marginally better to naturally draw, but also that it makes for an easier transformational sideboard. I would only run ToA and EtW as targets.

[Final Fortune]

The new deck is rather interesting, but is it any better than the original deck we came up with? Tendrils of Agony, Past in Flames, Memory's Journey and Deep Analysis are all dead cards when compared to Narcomoeba, so you have three less dead cards considering Dread Return, Sutured Ghoul and Dragon's Breath, but it appears as tho' getting initial mana sources and imprinting black mana on Chrome Mox is a lot harder and cards like Street Wraith and Gitaxian Probe add a lot of extra "cogs" to the deck.

Would you consider this strictly better or is it a "work in progress" kind of thing?

[nudon]

The new deck is rather interesting, but is it any better than the original deck we came up with? Tendrils of Agony, Past in Flames, Memory's Journey and Deep Analysis are all dead cards when compared to Narcomoeba, so you have three less dead cards considering Dread Return, Sutured Ghoul and Dragon's Breath, but it appears as tho' getting initial mana sources and imprinting black mana on Chrome Mox is a lot harder and cards like Street Wraith and Gitaxian Probe add a lot of extra "cogs" to the deck.

Would you consider this strictly better or is it a "work in progress" kind of thing?

It's definitely a work in progress but I felt as though this avenue should be explored since it's a new discovery. It's also not strictly better due to needing another turn to finish off your opponent. ToA should definitely be replaced with burning wish (finding ToA and EtW only as stated above) and therefore does not count as a dead card. There are only 3 dead cards in the deck (journey, PiF, and DA) compared to at least 7 (4 narc + suture kill) in the previous version we worked on. Though a small issue, the cabal therapy in the suture kill has to self-target 3 cards as opposed to 2 (PiF is self-discarded through LED). Unless you're going with the angel kill, not having to go through the attack step is a huge deal. Due to this, you might even count the 2nd cabal therapy as a dead card since you'd have to name their removal. I've tested a lot in the past day and finally came to this list.

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Grim Monolith
4 Dark Ritual
4 Tinder Wall
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Wild Cantor
4 Manamorphose
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Memory's Journey
1 Deep Analysis
1 Past in Flames
1 Burning Wish
4 Living Wish
4 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy

1 Balustrade Spy
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Hickory Woodlot
1 Geothermal Crevice
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Desecration Demon
1 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Chancellor of the Annex

The most glaring omissions are summoner's pact and goblin charbelcher. While very explosive, they are often terrible when you're forced to mulligan and in the face of disruption. It was tough to finally cut pact but I think it had to be done. Tinder wall helps bridge the gap between our initial mana and rogue. The red mana actually helps turn on manamorphose a lot of the time. Manamorphose is a lot better in this iteration than in the past because you can still store the mana in living wish and grim monolith if you fizzle. One thing to keep in mind with chrome mox is that you only need 4 mana instead of 5 if green is imprinted it. You can flashback memory's journey on your upkeep. LED gets a huge boost from this configuration as well. It's more explosive with undercity informer and isn't a dead card with balustrade spy. Living wish also gets better due to the reduced number of dead cards since we have more mana earlier. The cyclers were far too inconsistent and clunky to include. They reminded me of why we removed them in the first place. Drawing into extra rogues, wishes, and combo pieces felt terrible. It also made mulligan decisions harder. I went with chancellor of the annex instead of PoN for the same reasons why I cut summoner's pact.

Edit: Replacing burning wish with death wish for lab man is a great idea.

[alphastryk]

nudon, I really like the look of that list, but I do have to ask - that's a ton of dudes in the board. Do you really think it's worth playing all those dudes (Thrun, Lodestone Golem, Obliterator AND Desecration Demon), or was that to test out different men?

[nudon]

nudon, I really like the look of that list, but I do have to ask - that's a ton of dudes in the board. Do you really think it's worth playing all those dudes (Thrun, Lodestone Golem, Obliterator AND Desecration Demon), or was that to test out different men?

Thanks alphastryk! Including those creatures was just a matter of laying out the possible options. It's highly likely you only need 2 of the 4. Of the 4 options, I think I'll probably end up with obliterator and golem since they both hit the hardest. Golem should theoretically buy you some time against combo while providing a clock. It also can be cast off any colored mana. Obliterator was the strongest cmc4 creature I could think of.

[Final Fortune]

IDK, the deck looks like an excercise in mulliganing and goldfishing considering it loses to Surgical Extraction and it can't SB out Lion's Eye Diamond for Pact of Negation i.e. the only disruption that works in this deck is really either discard or Xantid Swarm?

If you need an ace up your sleave for Living Wish, I think Magus of the Moon will straight up steal games for you.

[nudon]

IDK, the deck looks like an excercise in mulliganing and goldfishing considering it loses to Surgical Extraction and it can't SB out Lion's Eye Diamond for Pact of Negation i.e. the only disruption that works in this deck is really either discard or Xantid Swarm?

If you need an ace up your sleave for Living Wish, I think Magus of the Moon will straight up steal games for you.

Surgical extraction and leyline of the void are definitely a concern. Living wish offers some help but it's likely not enough. I don't trust discard other than the singleton cabal therapy (pitching balustrade spy of course). Xantid swarm is interesting but I think 4x chancellor of the annex might be stronger. It'll be similar to the configuration we ran before with LEDs. Magus of the moon is a sick tech against the current meta. Thanks for the suggestion. Here are some minor changes I've made:

Main Deck
-1 burning wish
-1 grim monolith
+1 cunning wish
+1 gitaxian probe

Sideboard
-1 gemstone mine
-1 tendrils
-1 etw
-1 demon
-1 thrun
+1 city of brass
+1 noxious revival
+1 laboratory maniac
+1 magus of the moon
+1 chancellor of the annex

I don't think burning and death wish are consistent enough to run as win-cons. However, I was able to make the deck completely ignore leyline of sanctity. After generating 7 mana off LEDs, use all but the blue (leftover from DA flashback) and black for PiF. Flashback all the dark rituals with the single black to go up to 10 total mana. Spend 3 to cast cunning wish for noxious revival. Revival then puts LED on top of the library for 2 life. For another 2 life, probe draws LED for triple green mana. Use 1 green mana to flashback revival, targeting LED. Flashback manamorphose to make blue mana and draw LED. Crack LED again and flashback living wish for lab man. Flashback manamorphose #2 to win. If they StP/bolt/decay lab man in response, flashback manamorphose #3.

[nudon]

MD: -1 cunning wish, -1 probe, +1 noxious revival, +1 grim monolith
SB: -1 noxious revival, +1 karakas

Slight oversight by me. There's no need to wish for revival. The good thing about this is revival isn't a dead card since it lets you recover faster from discard/counters.

[Bahamuth]

There is no way it's worth it to increase the amount of dead cards you play to be able to beat Leyline of Sanctity. And why don't you try to build the deck such that it can transform into a Belcher variant post-board? If you actually have to fight through graveyard hate in every post-board game, then why would the deck be better than Belcher?

[phazonmutant]

MD: -1 cunning wish, -1 probe, +1 noxious revival, +1 grim monolith
SB: -1 noxious revival, +1 karakas

Slight oversight by me. There's no need to wish for revival. The good thing about this is revival isn't a dead card since it lets you recover faster from discard/counters.

Good thing you figured out that Revival would be better in the main, because the previous line doesn't work. With Past in Flames you can only flash back cards that are in the graveyard at the time you cast PiF.

I haven't had time to test this, but I find it hard to believe that not playing cantrips can be correct. How realistic is winning if you're forced to pass the turn unless you somehow have 4 (Spy) + 2 (Manamorphose) + 1 (Memory's Journey) = 7 mana.

[nudon]

There is no way it's worth it to increase the amount of dead cards you play to be able to beat Leyline of Sanctity. And why don't you try to build the deck such that it can transform into a Belcher variant post-board? If you actually have to fight through graveyard hate in every post-board game, then why would the deck be better than Belcher?

I don't agree with your assessment of noxious revival being a dead card. It takes the same slot as burning/death wish and allows you to recover from discard. You get the benefit of beating leyline of sanctity for free. I have tested belcher in the main deck and haven't had success worth posting yet. As for the sb transformation, I think it's more important to get the md correct first. This deck has the potential of being better than belcher because EtW doesn't always get there. You only have to pass the turn once with memory's journey. With EtW, you pass the turn twice and sometimes even three times.


Good thing you figured out that Revival would be better in the main, because the previous line doesn't work. With Past in Flames you can only flash back cards that are in the graveyard at the time you cast PiF.

I haven't had time to test this, but I find it hard to believe that not playing cantrips can be correct. How realistic is winning if you're forced to pass the turn unless you somehow have 4 (Spy) + 2 (Manamorphose) + 1 (Memory's Journey) = 7 mana.

Thanks for the clarification on PiF. Actually, 7 mana in general will win you the game as long as you have blue (off petal/manamorphose/LED). You can flashback DA right away and proceed to combo out. This line of play comes up more often than one would expect. Probe/wraith might be correct but is very clunky with chancellor of the tangle. I will re-explore this path alongside the tinder wall package instead of mox opal (terribly inconsistent). Summoner's pact is probably the most controversial card right now but way better if you're trying win all in 1 turn.

[nudon]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I've tried to incorporate all of your insights and have arrived at the list below:

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Tinder Wall
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
1 Memory's Journey
1 Deep Analysis
1 Past in Flames
1 Death Wish
3 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Undercity Informer
4 Balustrade Spy

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Land Grant
1 Taiga

This list is probably my most consistent iteration yet while still maintaining explosiveness. The decision tree with regards to cycling probe/wraith/manamorphose is the key to winning. There will be times where you want to cycle (digging for more mana to partially go off) and other times where you want to hold onto probe/wraith so you can kill all at once (i.e. summoner's pact in hand). Cycling is also generally advised with LED in hand since you'll be able to generate blue mana and kill all at once anyway. The decision of when to fire off with 4 mana and manamorphose in hand will depend on the game state. You will most likely want 1 green and 1 black mana off manamorphose but VERY IMPORTANT to know when to generate a blue (instead of a black/green), double black, or double green. Furthermore, 4 mana is often enough to partially go off as well with a [green] chrome mox in play.

Notable omissions:
Chancellor of the tangle - awkward with cycling effects
Cabal ritual - requires 2 mana investment and filtering later on; tinder wall is better
Grim monolith - worse than cabal ritual without chancellor
Living wish - destroys the sb and too mana intensive; might as well go for belcher
Empty the warrens - nonbo with summoner's pact
Pact of negation - nonbo with LED
Chancellor of the annex - awkward with cycling effects

The sideboard is actually a work in progress. The idea is that we're a heavy underdog against FoW decks. Therefore, the spoils of the vault acts as #5-8 copies of xantid swarm as well as #5-8 copies of belcher. The transformation involves 13 cards from the sb (everything but ToA and lab-man). You then would remove all 8 rogues, 4 dead combo pieces, and a wraith. Wraith isn't great since the life loss matters a lot with spoils of the vault. I'll re-iterate that the sb plan is conceptual and has a lot of room for improvement.

[DireLemming]

I'm testing something similar, but with Rite of Flame instead Wraith as I was having a dismal rate of winning without passing the turn. With Tinder Wall, Rite is amazing and counterintuitively helps a little bit with getting B with plays such as SSG->Rite->Manamorphose->DR. The only problem with this change is, I'm getting low on B imprintable cards. My next iteration is going to be about trying to incorporate Living Wish back which I feel give a lot of resilience in real-life matches and would make imprinting Hermits less problematic. I also want Revival back as it turns on Manamorphose after PiF.

[nudon]

I'm testing something similar, but with Rite of Flame instead Wraith as I was having a dismal rate of winning without passing the turn. With Tinder Wall, Rite is amazing and counterintuitively helps a little bit with getting B with plays such as SSG->Rite->Manamorphose->DR. The only problem with this change is, I'm getting low on B imprintable cards. My next iteration is going to be about trying to incorporate Living Wish back which I feel give a lot of resilience in real-life matches and would make imprinting Hermits less problematic. I also want Revival back as it turns on Manamorphose after PiF.

I actually added tinder wall for the exact reason you stated. I compared previous iterations of this deck to belcher and noticed that while both decks have 20 initial mana sources (unless you're running tangle), this deck only had 4 cmc1 mana spells compared to 8 from belcher. Moreover the initial mana and cmc1 mana in belcher is more flexible. However, I was a little hesitant to add rite of flame because there are only 4 SSG compared to 8 ESG and imprinting for red mana is far worse than green. Let me know how the testing goes. I will definitely test living wish again as well since it's so versatile. Using living wish as extra wild cantors or hate cards is amazing. It also turns LED active much earlier. However, I would trim the wish board down to save space. Re-evaluating my previous list, I think we only need the following living wish targets: balustrade spy, laboratory maniac, city of brass, hickory woodlot, geothermal crevice, and maybe 2-3 creature options. Wishing for cavern of souls and city of traitors probably happens once in a blue moon. This gives us 7 sb spots to work with. Cavern may be worth keeping but will require a cabal therapy to go along with it so you can discard FoW after a rogue resolves.

[JPoJohnson]

Came across an interesting tweak recently. Wondering what your guy's thoughts are:


I've been running Underworld Cerberus instead of Azami and Angel... and he's fantastic. Combo goes: dread return UC, sack to therapy, hard cast maniac (spirit guides + wild cantor), cycle street wraith, win.

A few benefits:
One less card in the combo (15 card combo = full sideboarding)
Therapy-ing your opponent is part of the combo (hooray!)
He's a castable mostly-unblockable beat-stick (alternate kill)
Maniac in the hand is no problem (since you'll be hard casting him)
Only Dread Return is bad in the opening hand...

Let me know what you think. Cheers!

[nudon]

Came across an interesting tweak recently. Wondering what your guy's thoughts are:

I agree it's better than the angel kill. However, the dread return package still has plenty of dead cards in the deck. Hard-casting the creature without summoner's pact isn't trivial either.

I've incorporated the living wish package again due to its versatility. Belcher, while explosive, is often a dead card when you have multiple rogues in hand. Thus, I feel it's better to reduce the number of mulligan hands as possible. Moreover, noxious revival is better than burning/death wish. I also reduced the tinder wall count to 3 because having 2 in hand is not desirable. The main difference in the sideboard is carpet of flowers. This card allows the deck to recover from counters much easier. Aside from those minor tweaks, I haven't really tinkered with the deck too much lately.

@DireLemming: You can try 1 deathrite shaman as a summoner's pact target to imprint onto chrome mox if you're light on black cards. It's also not a completely dead card if you draw it.

[Final Fortune]

I've never understood the Deathrite Shaman in order to imprint black mana on Chrome Mox via Summoner's Pact argument, in 99% of those cases Wild Cantor does the same thing without being a questionable draw.

[nudon]

I've never understood the Deathrite Shaman in order to imprint black mana on Chrome Mox via Summoner's Pact argument, in 99% of those cases Wild Cantor does the same thing without being a questionable draw.

In the previous iteration with dread return, we both came to the conclusion that DRS isn't needed in most cases. However, DireLemming is working on the PiF kill, which requires green mana. Thus, you won't always be able to turn your ESG/summoner's pact into black mana because you need the green. Secondly, imprinting DRS on chrome mox gains you 1 mana while using wild cantor only filters, netting you 0. Though I haven't tested it yet, I was offering him a suggestion since he's down to 11 black cards (7 rogues + dark ritual) in the deck after removing street wraith.

[DireLemming]

I mostly solved my imprint black problem by changing Probes to Wraith and adding Living Wish (making Rouges more consistently imprintable).

[nudon]

I'm not sure about taking probes out for wraiths since probes act as pseudo protection in real life matches. Has rite of flame justified removing 4 cycling effects? Also, I think deadshot minotaur deserves some testing as a 1-of in the deck. This turns all of your summoner's pact into cantrips to go off all in 1 turn and gives your red mana something to do.

[Ziveeman]

Oops All Spells made its first SCG Top 8 today. Congrats.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=59861

[MaximumC]

Dunno if this has been mentioned yet, but has anyone tried Recross the Paths out? In builds with alot of Wraiths or Probes, it seems like a pretty sick way to stack your deck and get it done. With two cantrips in hand, you can stack LED and a Rouge, for example.

[Jables237]

Dunno if this has been mentioned yet, but has anyone tried Recross the Paths out? In builds with alot of Wraiths or Probes, it seems like a pretty sick way to stack your deck and get it done. With two cantrips in hand, you can stack LED and a Rouge, for example.

Takes 3 mana to cast which is only 1 short of going off anyways. Then you still have to draw the cards you stack. Not worth it imho.

[jmd323232]

Oops All Spells made its first SCG Top 8 today. Congrats.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=59861

This deck seems to disagree with many of the choices in this thread. I wish the coverage was better of how this deck was played and what matchups it faced...

The deck gets destroyed in the finals by FoW. How was it not countered more often without any pact in main or sb?

As previously mentioned, the wraith/probe let you top deck solutions, but make the mulligan choices murky. Im wondering how much mull was done and success rates from matches.

One thing im unclear on is how going off in response to the probe gives some kind of an advantage.

I like the transformational sideboard, but also wonder how often and against what decks it was used. In the finals, it didnt appear it was used.

[fredteded]

I'm thinking of building Jeremy Barbeau's version of this deck, only with the Underworld Cerberus win instead. Since Underworld Cerberus frees up one slot what should I play as the last card? Right now I'm thinking the 4th summoner's pact or a random rite of flame, any ideas?

Creatures (28)

1 Underworld Cerberus
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Narcomoeba
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
1 Tinder Wall
4 Undercity Informer
1 Wild Cantor

Spells (31)

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Manamorphose
3 Summoner's Pact
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe

[Xanderin]

This is my first post here, so hopefully this is useful. I am building this deck and my LGS didn't have any Azami, Lady of Scrolls in stock. So I was looking for an alternative and found Alchemist's Apprentice. http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=240031 Alchemist's Apprentice seems like a strict upgrade to Azami since it does not require tapping. I would love to hear some input to this idea. I am new to Legacy, so maybe there is something that makes Azami better? Hopefully this idea helps someone!

Well, After reading more... I found the answer to my question on P16 of this thread. Azami lets you tap the other Wizard in response to Stifle.

[Namida]

"Requiring Tapping" isn't a drawback, and I'm not sure why you think it is. "Tap a Wizard" and "Sacrifice this" both are costs activated abilities that can be responded to.

Hapless Researcher is better than Alchemist's Apprentice because it costs one mana if you're planning on casting it. In a no-land deck, I think the extra mana you would put into casting the Apprentice is likely going to cost you a card, so there isn't much difference in losing a card from paying 1U and discarding a card as part of Hapless Researcher's ability.

Underworld Cerberus seems be a better alternative if you're trying to kill with Laboratory Maniac without playing Azami.

[Matt]

After some intensive play-testing, with the wish-less version, the Rogue Hermit's strengths and weaknesses are becoming very apparent.

Pros:
Speed - a self-contained combo for 4cc in legacy--almost inconceivable until you realize how vulnerable Rogue Hermit is to disruption.
High Game 1 Win % - If your opponent isn't holding FoW, and you didn't mull into oblivion, you win.

Cons:
Loses to FoW (needs to be addressed)
Loses to Graveyard Hate (solved, to some extent)

Firstly, in its current condition, I would not play this deck in a meta with any significant amount of blue cards--very similar to Belcher. Though, I feel like this problem is somewhat addressable (Pact of Negation and, to a lesser extent, Unmask.) Pact of Negation can be implemented easily enough with out running into any consistency issues. Unmask, on the other hand, requires some tinkering, but +4 Street Wraith, +4 Cabal Therapy, and possibly +1 Bridge from Below wouldn't be terribly difficult to implement and would be more than enough to supplement 2-3 Unmasks in the side. But because of our transformational sideboard, which I mention next, there isn't much room for protection spells (running 1-3 Goblin Charbelcher main could free some space). The obvious solution would be to run 3-4 Pact of Negation main (for starters, Underworld Cerberus replacing Angel of Glory's Rise and Azami, Lady of Scrolls provides a slot), freeing up room in the sideboard, along with 2-3 copies of Unmask in the side. Also, this deck is pretty weak to soft-counters, especially if your opponent is clever enough to target your initial mana sources or initial ritual effects. Regardless though, Carpet of Flowers wouldn't be correct. It's slow and counter-intuitive, as it takes an initial mana source to cast; even though Belcher decks only runs one land, it's more than enough to supplement Carpet of Flowers, Rogue Hermit, in comparison, desperately needs every initial mana source available to it in order to cast Dark Ritual, Tinder Wall, and possibly Rite of Flame.

Secondly, graveyard hate is simply a blowout (they can just mulligan into the 4x Tormod's Crypt that they sided in--and win!.. it's terrible). But thankfully, our second problem has already been addressed with a transformational sideboard! A transformational sideboard allows us to successfully dodge game 2 (and arguably game 3) graveyard hate. There's a few problems I see with this, though. Firstly, a transformational sideboard takes up 12+ slots, slots which could be dedicated to answering blue spells. Secondly, our transformed belcher deck is mediocre at best; the most fine-tuned blecher lists have a difficult time averaging 7-mana turn one to cast/activate belcher. In play testing, it generally took 3 turns to cast AND activate Goblin Charbelcher--quite slow. Thirdly, when transforming the deck game 2/3, if the opponent is clever enough to side in Mind Break Trap, Spell Pierce, ect. (which is a logical idea, as MBT and Spell Pierce answers Petal>Dark Rit.>Cabal Rit.>Spy/Informer), rather then graveyard hate, we're now playing a diluted version of belcher against blue cards... so terrible. And lastly, I figured I should mention, a transformational sideboard can often lead to awkward Game 3's. Game 1, your opponent is bestowed the great fortune of watching the Rogue Hermit blow up in their face (or vice versa, if they're packing FoW). Game 2, your opponent has now prepared graveyard hate to combat your efforts, but he is instead, once again, bestowed the great fortune of witnessing just how clever you really are as your new, innovative transformational sideboard blows up in their face (or vice versa, if they're packing FoW). Game 3, the cat's out of the bag. Your opponent has seen your tricks; there's no longer anywhere to hide. So what will your opponent do, side out graveyard hate? If so, will you transform back to Rogue Hermit; and if so, will he side his hate back in? Well if that's the case, mind as well just play belcher... See where I'm going with this? Game 3 tends to be sort of awkward, as both players take turns subtly spying on each other in an attempt to sideboard something relevant!

And if you're lucky enough to get paired against a blue deck with yard hate, it's a bad day for you my friend.

All-in-all, I think the best configuration as of now seems to be the wish-less list with a transformational sideboard. Though there's still improvements to be made, especially in terms of resiliency, which can be found in Pact of Negation and Unmask (specifically Pact of Negation main and Unmask in the side).

[herbig]

Can someone explain how you target Underworld Cerberus with Dread Return? I must be missing something right?

[whienot]

Can someone explain how you target Underworld Cerberus with Dread Return? I must be missing something right?

Underworld Cerberus's ability has no effect while it's in the graveyard.

[herbig]

Underworld Cerberus's ability has no effect while it's in the graveyard.

Oh yeah.

[nudon]

All-in-all, I think the best configuration as of now seems to be the wish-less list with a transformational sideboard.

Before making such a statement, I suggest you test either the living wish version Direlemming or I worked on. His version uses rite of flame instead of probes. Living wish represents 4 main deck outs to grave yard hate. Moreover, the living wish version only has 4 dead cards as opposed to 10.

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Tinder Wall
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
4 Manamorphose
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Memory's Journey
1 Deep Analysis
1 Past in Flames
1 Noxious Revival
4 Living Wish
4 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy

1 Balustrade Spy
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 City of Brass
1 Hickory Woodlot
1 Geothermal Crevice
1 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Carpet of Flowers

[Matt]

Before making such a statement, I suggest you test either the living wish version Direlemming or I worked on. His version uses rite of flame instead of probes. Living wish represents 4 main deck outs to grave yard hate. Moreover, the living wish version only has 4 dead cards as opposed to 10.[/cards]

Your win condition looks test worthy.

I did test the Living Wish version--I guess I could have mentioned this in my first post. In my testing, Living Wish did an amazing job of increasing consistency, and it comes with the added bonus of LED. But, Living Wish fell really short in terms of reliably combating graveyard hate in games 2/3. The transformational sideboard, on the other hand, proved to be a vast improvement versus yard hate. Also, Living Wish versions play 4x Lion's Eye Diamond, which is terrible when coupled with Pact of Negation--our best answer to FoW. Xantid Swarm is great if the blue decks in your meta aren't packing removal (Reanimator, Show and Know, Merfolk, ect..) but I'm not that fortunate; RUG Delver, Stone-Blade Variants, and UW Miracles are just a couple of the decks that plague my meta, and I'm not the only one. This is why I suggest Pact of Negation, in tandem with Unmask, to force your way through blue disruption.

All of these things, and the fact that a Wish-less variation recently performed well at an SCG event (for what little it's worth), led me to believe that the Wish-less list with a transformational sideboard is quite possibly the best current configuration. (Feel free to input your opinions on this--this is just my assessment of the deck after several weeks of testing.)

But I will say, if it was possible to implement the Pact of Negation and Unmask package (solves FoW), the transformational sideboard (solves yard hate), and the Living Wish package (solves consistency issues), without watering it down too much, this deck would be a force to be reckoned with. Whether that requires reducing Living Wish to 2-3 and cutting the wish-board down to just Balustrade Spy, adding Pact of Negation main, or possibly adding Goblin Charbelcher main, I really don't know, but I'd love to see what it looks like.

[nudon]

Your win condition looks test worthy.

I did test the Living Wish version--I guess I could have mentioned this in my first post. In my testing, Living Wish did an amazing job of increasing consistency, and it comes with the added bonus of LED. But, Living Wish fell really short in terms of reliably combating graveyard hate in games 2/3. The transformational sideboard, on the other hand, proved to be a vast improvement versus yard hate. Also, Living Wish versions play 4x Lion's Eye Diamond, which is terrible when coupled with Pact of Negation--our best answer to FoW. Xantid Swarm is great if the blue decks in your meta aren't packing removal (Reanimator, Show and Know, Merfolk, ect..) but I'm not that fortunate; RUG Delver, Stone-Blade Variants, and UW Miracles are just a couple of the decks that plague my meta, and I'm not the only one. This is why I suggest Pact of Negation, in tandem with Unmask, to force your way through blue disruption.

All of these things, and the fact that a Wish-less variation recently performed well at an SCG event (for what little it's worth), led me to believe that the Wish-less list with a transformational sideboard is quite possibly the best current configuration. (Feel free to input your opinions on this--this is just my assessment of the deck after several weeks of testing.)

But I will say, if it was possible to implement the Pact of Negation and Unmask package (solves FoW), the transformational sideboard (solves yard hate), and the Living Wish package (solves consistency issues), without watering it down too much, this deck would be a force to be reckoned with. Whether that requires reducing Living Wish to 2-3 and cutting the wish-board down to just Balustrade Spy, adding Pact of Negation main, or possibly adding Goblin Charbelcher main, I really don't know, but I'd love to see what it looks like.

Thanks, I think you'll agree that saving those 6 extra dead cards makes a big difference. You're welcome to refer to the last few pages of this thread for lines of play. The savings make the belcher transformation (if you plan to include it) easier since there are fewer cards to board out and LED is already in the main deck. Furthermore, one of my previous iterations actually had belcher in the main. I removed it because I think living wish adds much more versatility in real-game situations. While I'll agree that the man plan may not always get there, I think phyrexian obliterator is very difficult for non-white decks to deal with. Magus of the moon is a blowout against many legacy decks too. There are other bombs such as lodestone golem and karakas but cuts had to be made.

Pact of negation is the strongest argument against living wish. However, the power level of LED somewhat offsets this. Xantid swarm may not be the correct FoW counter depending on the meta but I just included it for now due to the synergy with living wish. This gives you 7 virtual copies of swarm. The correct number may be one or have a single cavern of souls take its place. With regards to unmask, there's no reason why the living wish build can't run it. If the lower black count (7 rogues + 4 wraiths + 4 rituals = 15) scares you, a single deathrite shaman can be added as a summoner's pact target to increase the black density. The problem with unmask is the card disadvantage. For this reason, I really recommend carpet of flowers (possibly in conjunction with unmask). It'll often represent a green, re-usable dark ritual. Having your mana countered won't feel as bad.

Not to take anything away from the wish-less version that got second at SCG but it had no answers for FoW. No pact of negation, chancellor of the annex, or unmask. This decision is clearly reflected by the deck's performance in the finals. Sometimes, you're able to dodge counters all day and sometimes all you face are blue decks. I actually agree with most of your assessment regarding the wish-less version and how it translates to the wish version. The two things I didn't necessarily agree with are your assessment of carpet of flowers and that the wish-less version is better.

[ESG]

Xantid Swarm is great if the blue decks in your meta aren't packing removal (Reanimator, Show and Know, Merfolk, ect..) but I'm not that fortunate; RUG Delver, Stone-Blade Variants, and UW Miracles are just a couple of the decks that plague my meta, and I'm not the only one.

I don't understand why anyone would run a glass-canon combo deck in such a meta. It's just asking for disappointment. If your goal is to prize, then play decks that prey on what other people are playing. Keep this one around for when the meta shifts against those decks and people start playing decks without Force of Will.

Here are some of the large hurdles this deck faces:

* It doesn't run enough initial mana sources.
This is a tough one to solve, and it's the challenge that any landless or largely landless deck faces. Summoner's Pact adds a lot of consistency in speed and color fixing, but it puts you all in and means you can't ever pass the turn. Land Grant is an option, but it opens you up to fizzling and it gives away your hand. What this decks wants more than anything is a Zombie Spirit Guide, but that probably will never exist. Are there any IMS options that haven't already been explored?

* It doesn't have enough ways to create an initial black mana, which is what you need in order to cast your rituals, which are the primary workhorses of mana generation.
The options here are to either play more black cards to turn on Chrome Mox more often, play Summoner's Pact, play more copies of Wild Cantor, play Land Grant to grab Bayou, or find some other way to generate B.

* It doesn't have enough protection to beat counterspells.
Unmask is not realistic because this deck doesn't play enough black cards. Also, Unmask competes with Chrome Mox. Pact of Negation is the best defense for an all-in version, but Pacts compete for space with other cards. Pacts also don't work with Lion's Eye Diamond. LED is an excellent mana generator, and Pact of Negation is an excellent counterspell. Pacts require an immediate kill, so they are not viable with any plan that would require passing the turn. If we need to beat counterspells, we either shouldn't play this deck or we should play Pact of Negation or we should find another way to protect the combo (for example, Chancellor of the Annex, Silence, Orim's Chant).

* It needs to run out a Ballustrade Spy or an Undercity Informer in order to win the game.
You can run a maximum of eight together. If you run cyclers, you keep hands based on odds. Then you either cycle into the jackpot or you bust. The more turns you pass waiting to hit, the higher the failure rate climbs. You need a way to increase the number of enablers in order to increase the consistency. Topdeck tutors, such as Wordly Tutor, might be possible with cyclers. Living Wish results in running seven instead of eight enablers, so you'll often be keeping Wish hands. The drawback of the Wish hands is that they cost more mana. The benefit of the Wish hands is that you can use LEDs. Another thing Wish hands have going for them is a desperation aggro plan. Phyrexian Obliterator is a great card, but quadruple black is difficult to come by. Wish hands will most often be keepable with LED, which gets you to BBB, so ideally the creature you fetch would not have more than BBB in its CMC. The beater plan, while likely unrealistic Game 1, is at least a way to win without needing Ballustrade Spy or an Undercity Informer, so it has that going for it. Questions to consider: Are there any other cyclers out there that could improve the odds of the cycling plan? Are there other ways to win the game that we could incorporate to not be reliant on Ballustrade Spy or Undercity Informer? If a man plan is a realistic plan B, which are the best targets?

What these hurdles have in common is a need to add pieces in order to improve consistency: mana sources, protection, enablers, backup plans. If there was a way to shrink the kill package, then more space could be allotted to initial mana sources or protection or tutors. I think it would be helpful to focus on this part first and to try to come up with a list of kill packages with an aim to use the fewest cards. Tightening this part also would reap benefits when boarding, as it makes transformational sideboards more feasible. We also should focus more on postboard plans.

My opinion is that this deck is not currently viable, but I don't think all the options have been explored yet, and I think there have been some interesting ideas expressed. I also think this thread needs to seriously weigh the pros and cons this deck has versus just running Charbelcher. Charbelcher has essentially fixed the IMS problem by way of Land Grant, Tinder Wall, and red rituals, and it has a kill package that requires fewer cards than this deck. Flexibility and protection are the two areas where it runs into severe limitations.

[nudon]

I don't understand why anyone would run a glass-canon combo deck in such a meta. It's just asking for disappointment. If your goal is to prize, then play decks that prey on what other people are playing. Keep this one around for when the meta shifts against those decks and people start playing decks without Force of Will.

Completely agree.


Here are some of the large hurdles this deck faces:

* It doesn't run enough initial mana sources.

The best alternative is chancellor of the tangle but it's a terrible top-deck and is a non-bo with cyclers. Mox opal is possible too but terribly inconsistent.


* It doesn't have enough ways to create an initial black mana, which is what you need in order to cast your rituals, which are the primary workhorses of mana generation.

This is one of the primary reasons why I think living wish is correct. Living wish acts as wild cantor 6-9.


* It doesn't have enough protection to beat counterspells.
This is why I don't play the deck.


* It needs to run out a Ballustrade Spy or an Undercity Informer in order to win the game.
Another reason why I think living wish is correct.


What these hurdles have in common is a need to add pieces in order to improve consistency: mana sources, protection, enablers, backup plans. If there was a way to shrink the kill package, then more space could be allotted to initial mana sources or protection or tutors. I think it would be helpful to focus on this part first and to try to come up with a list of kill packages with an aim to use the fewest cards. Tightening this part also would reap benefits when boarding, as it makes transformational sideboards more feasible. We also should focus more on postboard plans.

My opinion is that this deck is not currently viable, but I don't think all the options have been explored yet, and I think there have been some interesting ideas expressed. I also think this thread needs to seriously weigh the pros and cons this deck has versus just running Charbelcher. Charbelcher has essentially fixed the IMS problem by way of Land Grant, Tinder Wall, and red rituals, and it has a kill package that requires fewer cards than this deck. Flexibility and protection are the two areas where it runs into severe limitations.

See previous page for the kill package involving only 4 cards.

[BigMana]

Someone explain Underworld Cerberusfor me?

[Darkenslight]

Someone explain Underworld Cerberusfor me?

Hrm...yes - because it returns them to your hand, not the battlefield. So how does the kill work?

[whienot]

Seriously, try searching the thread.



I've been running Underworld Cerberus instead of Azami and Angel... and he's fantastic. Combo goes: dread return UC, sack to therapy, hard cast maniac (spirit guides + wild cantor), cycle street wraith, win.

[Darkenslight]

Seriously, try searching the thread.

Thanks! I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing a trick....which I was.

[Matt]

I don't understand why anyone would run a glass-canon combo deck in such a meta. It's just asking for disappointment.


Firstly, in its current condition, I would not play this deck in a meta with any significant amount of blue cards--very similar to Belcher.

I agree with you here.


If your goal is to prize, then play decks that prey on what other people are playing. Keep this one around for when the meta shifts against those decks and people start playing decks without Force of Will.

That's the problem, though; people will ALWAYS be playing decks with Force of Will. This deck will never make it out of the developmental stages if it always folds to Force of Will (e.g., the Spanish Inquisition).


* It doesn't run enough initial mana sources.
* It doesn't have enough ways to create an initial black mana.
* It needs to run out a Ballustrade Spy or an Undercity Informer in order to win.


This is one of the primary reasons why I think living wish is correct. Living wish acts as wild cantor 6-9.

I agree with nudon on this one. If you're worried about consistency issues, Living Wish is the way to go, as it's incredibly easy to cast in this deck (12-16 green initial mana sources). While I'm currently working with the Wish-less list, I would never rule out running Living Wish, or Goblin Charbelcher main for that matter. Both cards increase consistency and both cards tend to appeal to their own niche. Goblin Charbelcher as a win con. that's unaffected by graveyard hate and Living Wish as a win con. tutor and as a utility.


* It doesn't have enough protection to beat counterspells.
Unmask is not realistic because this deck doesn't play enough black cards. Also, Unmask competes with Chrome Mox. Pact of Negation is the best defense for an all-in version, but Pacts compete for space with other cards. Pacts also don't work with Lion's Eye Diamond. LED is an excellent mana generator, and Pact of Negation is an excellent counterspell. Pacts require an immediate kill, so they are not viable with any plan that would require passing the turn. If we need to beat counterspells, we either shouldn't play this deck or we should play Pact of Negation or we should find another way to protect the combo (for example, Chancellor of the Annex, Silence, Orim's Chant).


We need to be able to beat FoW--agreed. But, I believe Unmask is one of our best solutions, aside from Pact of Negation. I apologize if I sound overly critical, but your analysis here consists of you deeming Unmask unusable, deeming Pact of negation conditionally unusable, and then the solution you provide is to just not play this deck at all or to simply "find another way"... in a no land deck (and Chancellor of the Annex, Silence, Orim's Chant is not that way--sorry). Let me put your mind at ease when I say, the Rogue Hermit DOES contain enough black cards to supplement Unmask (or it at least has the potential to). 4x Dark Ritual, 4x Cabal Ritual, 4x Undercity Informer, 4x Balustrade Spy, 4x Street Wraith, 4x Cabal Therapy, with room for several more, especially if you're playing nudon's version (that means nearly half the deck is black, 1:2). Also, I recommend only playing 2-3 copies of Unmask, to decrease the probability of getting both Chrome Mox and Unmask in your opening 7 (simply because they're both -1 card disadvantage, not because of limited black cards). With 4x Chrome Mox and 2x Unmask, the probability of drawing just one of these cards in your opening hand is a measly 7%, making the likelihood of drawing two minuscule. Let's approach this logically with a hypothesis: If Unmask is added to the Rogue Hermit, then the Rogue Hermit will perform better against blue decks. The easiest way to statistically test this would be to play-test the Rogue Hermit, with and without Unmask, against various blue decks, while recording the win percentages for comparison. And from my own play-testing I can honestly say with certainty, Unmask allows the Rogue Hermit to perform better against blue decks, especially when used in conjunction with Pact of Negation. But, I encourage you not to take my word and to conduct your own testing. The more research the better.


What these hurdles have in common is a need to add pieces in order to improve consistency: mana sources, protection, enablers, backup plans. If there was a way to shrink the kill package, then more space could be allotted to initial mana sources or protection or tutors. I think it would be helpful to focus on this part first and to try to come up with a list of kill packages with an aim to use the fewest cards. Tightening this part also would reap benefits when boarding, as it makes transformational sideboards more feasible. We also should focus more on postboard plans.

I couldn't agree with you more. Like I said earlier, I really like nudon's 4-card win con.

[ESG]

To answer your hypothesis, Unmask will improve the Force of Will matchups only if you can go off immediately afterward.

One problem with Unmask is that this deck usually requires six to seven cards in hand to win, first to generate an initial mana or two and often a card to filter the mana to black, then a Ritual to make Spy or Informer castable -- assuming you have Spy or Informer at all and aren't just keeping a speculative hand and hoping to cycle into one of your enablers. Obviously, if you're on a speculative hand, you have to cycle away Street Wraith, which would ordinarily be your best black card to pitch to Unmask. The black cards are the most critical in the deck because they are your enablers and your rituals. If you pitch a black card to Unmask, you're going to be down two cards from your opening hand. So that would work only when you have excess Rituals or excess enablers or just a perfect mix of exactly what you need. What hands do you commonly see with this deck where that is anywhere realistic? I don't think I have ever seen a hand that contained that many surplus black cards and also was a hand that could go off.

I tested Unmask and found it unrealistic unless the black count was increased significantly. I welcome you to post real opening hands, mulligans, etc. I don't think I can be the only one who thinks this deck needs all the stars to align in order for it to succeed. I feel the best chance this deck has is shrinking the kill package. I like the brainstorming that Nudon has done, but I wonder if we can come up with anything more compact.

[Final Fortune]

With all due respect to Nudon, his attempt to improve the deck by reducing the number of dead cards game 1 has only made it worse games 2/3 because it can't SB out Lion's Eye Diamond and Living Wish effectively.

[yugular]

My opinion is that this deck is not currently viable.

Define viable? It is certainly a popular deck in the mtgo metagame and has placed 4-0 or 3-1 quite many times in the recent daily events. I agree it's not a deck that can win a big tournament, but it can win you some prices as long as you dodge the FoW matchups. Currently I don't even like testing legacy decks in the TP room in mtgo because every 4th or 5th match will be against this deck.

And yes I agree that mtgo is a different than irl. But it's a thing to consider too.

[nudon]

With all due respect to Nudon, his attempt to improve the deck by reducing the number of dead cards game 1 has only made it worse games 2/3 because it can't SB out Lion's Eye Diamond and Living Wish effectively.

With regards to living wish, I don't think it should be boarded out in most instances since it provides the deck with so much versatility. It represents a balustrade spy, anti-graveyard hate bombs, and color fixing. Even without LED, I assumed we were on the same boat with living wish being essential to the deck. That said, you can still board out living wish if you so choose. Instead of winning with lab maniac, one can replace noxious revival with tendrils of agony.

LED, on the other hand, definitely cannot be boarded out due to being part of the kill. As a result, pact of negation, the deck's strongest sb option, becomes quite awkward. Even so, other storm decks (including belcher) have found several ways of combating FoW without counter-magic. Whether those methods are successful is another story. I think most blue players will counter the rogues and wishes because failing to do so allows cabal therapy (brought in game 2/3 with 7/11 chance of hitting) to potentially strip their FoW. This represents anywhere from 2 to 4 mana investment. Carpet of flowers allows us to recover more quickly while not diluting our combo. Moreover with the threat of cabal therapy, one can even choose to bring in pact of negation if they want to get cute. Carsten Kotter briefly talks about this option in his latest article (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27301_Bad-Plays-At-The-BOM-I.html). Though I personally would look at other alternatives first, I believe pact of negation is more viable than given credit for. On a side note, have you had any success with the dread return kill? In order for the deck to be more consistent, it has to find reliable ways of fighting through FoW. The best options discussed between us and others on this thread seem to be pact of negation, chancellor of the annex, xantid swarm, and cabal therapy.

[Final Fortune]

With regards to living wish, I don't think it should be boarded out in most instances since it provides the deck with so much versatility. It represents a balustrade spy, anti-graveyard hate bombs, and color fixing. Even without LED, I assumed we were on the same boat with living wish being essential to the deck. That said, you can still board out living wish if you so choose. Instead of winning with lab maniac, one can replace noxious revival with tendrils of agony.

LED, on the other hand, definitely cannot be boarded out due to being part of the kill. As a result, pact of negation, the deck's strongest sb option, becomes quite awkward. Even so, other storm decks (including belcher) have found several ways of combating FoW without counter-magic. Whether those methods are successful is another story. I think most blue players will counter the rogues and wishes because failing to do so allows cabal therapy (brought in game 2/3 with 7/11 chance of hitting) to potentially strip their FoW. This represents anywhere from 2 to 4 mana investment. Carpet of flowers allows us to recover more quickly while not diluting our combo. Moreover with the threat of cabal therapy, one can even choose to bring in pact of negation if they want to get cute. Carsten Kotter briefly talks about this option in his latest article (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27301_Bad-Plays-At-The-BOM-I.html). Though I personally would look at other alternatives first, I believe pact of negation is more viable than given credit for. On a side note, have you had any success with the dread return kill? In order for the deck to be more consistent, it has to find reliable ways of fighting through FoW. The best options discussed between us and others on this thread seem to be pact of negation, chancellor of the annex, xantid swarm, and cabal therapy.

Yes, I've been more or less successful with Dread Return, the "revelation" for me was that SBing out Lion's Eye Diamond AND Living Wish and playing 8 win conditions only caused me to have to mulligan ~25% of the time more often so I could play a full set of Pact of Negation and Xantid Swarm post-board vs all the blue decks that only ran Surgical Extraction effects. Basically you lose a card "virtually" in order to reduce the average cost of your win condition via mulliganing and load up on anti-counter goods.

Nobody plays Crypt anymore, which is why this deck is viable right now IMO.

[phazonmutant]

From what I understand, this deck has been posting results on MODO and it's also put up some T16 and even a T2 result. People recognize the deck and play it at locals. To me, that's enough to be in Established. All we need is a decent primer.

I'm cool with writing the primer, but I recognize that nudon has put way more work into this deck than I have. Nudon, if you'd like to have the honor I'd be more than willing to step down. Otherwise, I'm just going to write a decent primer over the next several days, get it vetted by y'all, then ask a mod to promote this thread to Established.

Any complaints / comments / feedback?

[Jables237]

Nobody plays Crypt anymore, which is why this deck is viable right now IMO.

But people do play Rest in Peace and Deathrite Shaman. Both of which also hose us.

[nudon]

From what I understand, this deck has been posting results on MODO and it's also put up some T16 and even a T2 result. People recognize the deck and play it at locals. To me, that's enough to be in Established. All we need is a decent primer.

I'm cool with writing the primer, but I recognize that nudon has put way more work into this deck than I have. Nudon, if you'd like to have the honor I'd be more than willing to step down. Otherwise, I'm just going to write a decent primer over the next several days, get it vetted by y'all, then ask a mod to promote this thread to Established.

Any complaints / comments / feedback?

Greg, you can go ahead and write the primer. I really appreciate the gesture though. :) Also, I would like to recognize those who have contributed feedback on this thread as well (FinalFortune, DireLemming, yourself, etc.). Some topics I think you would want to include are:

1. To living wish or not to living wish
2. Dread return vs. past in flames
3. IMS options
4. Color fixing - how to generate black mana
5. Protection options: pact of negation, xantid swarm, carpet of flowers, chancellor of the annex

Good luck!

[yugular]

Really looking forward to see the primer!

I played against this deck the other day in Modo and the guy pulled a win with The Mimeoplasm. Is that something that is already discussed in this thread? I am not sure how good option that is compared to the Lab Maniac kill, but its an interesting take nevertheless.

[ESG]

Really looking forward to see the primer!

I played against this deck the other day in Modo and the guy pulled a win with The Mimeoplasm. Is that something that is already discussed in this thread? I am not sure how good option that is compared to the Lab Maniac kill, but its an interesting take nevertheless.

Yes, it was discussed. It was determined to be generally inferior to the Lab Maniac kill. Essentially, winning without needing an attack step is better than having to win via attacking. (And if he's using Triskelion, that loses to Leyline of Sanctity.) Personally, I would much prefer the visceral feeling of stomping on someone with a giant monster, but if I were going to run this deck in a tournament, I would be playing the superior win condition.

[Final Fortune]

Superior is a loose term, I still think the Sutured Ghoul kill is the best because it requires the least amount of MD slots and kills immediately.

[phazonmutant]

Really looking forward to see the primer!

I played against this deck the other day in Modo and the guy pulled a win with The Mimeoplasm. Is that something that is already discussed in this thread? I am not sure how good option that is compared to the Lab Maniac kill, but its an interesting take nevertheless.

Thanks, it's coming along!

Wow, I didn't realize people still played strictly inferior kill conditions. I guess I'll mention why Mimeoplasm kills are bad. At least the Sutured Ghoul kill isn't strictly inferior...

[Silver2195]

Thanks, it's coming along!

Wow, I didn't realize people still played strictly inferior kill conditions. I guess I'll mention why Mimeoplasm kills are bad. At least the Sutured Ghoul kill isn't strictly inferior...

Not really strictly inferior. As this primer discusses, the Laboratory Maniac version is more vulnerable to removal: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3568408&pagenumber=153&perpage=40#post420554337

This version uses Triskelion in the first game, then swaps it for Giant Solifuge, the logic being that Leyline of Sanctity is almost never played in the main deck.

[nudon]

If playing the dread return kill, underworld cerberus only takes up two slots (itself + lab man) while still dodging removal and doesn't require the attack step. I would go with that.

[Fatal]

read cards please - it doesn't work - returning creatures to hand.

[eszanto]

read cards please - it doesn't work - returning creatures to hand.

Yes, it does exactly what you wrote- it returns all creature cards from your GY to your hand so you can play Lab Man with the help of Guides and Wild Cantor. It was explained a few pages back.

[TheMightyQuinn]

Cerberus frees up a slot, but Azami allows you to beat a removal spell.

[eszanto]

Cerberus frees up a slot, but Azami allows you to beat a removal spell.

You can beat removal spell in the Cerberus version by cycling one of your Street Wraiths in response to the removal. The only issue might be the loss of life. Another advantage of Cerberus version is that you don't need to get Lab Maniac to the graveyard if you draw it- Which is not the case in Angel version, you need all your combo pieces in yard when you go off. Considering this I agree with Nudon, that Cerberus is the best available DR target.

[ESG]

It's worth noting that if Cerberus is stuck in your hand, you'll need to first Therapy yourself to get it into the graveyard, then Dread Return -- so you'll have gone through four creatures at this point -- then sac it to another Therapy. Since it's pretty common to have one of the Narcomoebas in hand, this creates a sizable problem and cuts you off of winning through Undercity Informer. You can guard against this by running Bridge From Below, but then you lose the extra slot. I'm not saying it's worse, but there are tradeoffs.

[kinda]

How about a version where u choose to draw 2nd and play reanimate as win cons 9-12? You either entomb or discard it as your 8th card and reanimate next turn...and you only need 1 or 2 mana to do so. The rest can be used as daze/spell pierce protection etc. Also...if one of the reanimate spells gets countered u only need 1-3 more mana to try again instead of 4. And...you can still always just cast the creature if you need too. The deck already looks really weak to graveyard hate...y not shore up the matchup against counters? Also unmask/therapy can put any of the creatures in the yard. I know this is too many cards and I havent tested it but something like this:

Would need to cut 2:
3x unmask,
4x entomb
4x reanimate
2x animate dead
4x exhume
8x win con creature
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
3 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
4x manamorphose
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
2 cabal therapy

SB:
4x pact of negation
chancellor of the annex?
11x ??? Anti gy hate...null rod...abeyance

[phazonmutant]

How about a version where u choose to draw 2nd and play reanimate as win cons 9-12? You either entomb or discard it as your 8th card and reanimate next turn...and you only need 1 or 2 mana to do so. The rest can be used as daze/spell pierce protection etc. Also...if one of the reanimate spells gets countered u only need 1-3 more mana to try again instead of 4. And...you can still always just cast the creature if you need too. The deck already looks really weak to graveyard hate...y not shore up the matchup against counters? Also unmask/therapy can put any of the creatures in the yard. I know this is too many cards and I havent tested it but something like this:

<list>

1) Dude, The Source isn't your middle school broheim, just try grammaring just a little. I'm a native English speaker and I had trouble parsing your post. See: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7455-Site-Rules-for-MTS&p=174024&viewfull=1#post174024
2) Did you really just post a 62 card list?
3) We discussed that on the first couple of pages of this thread and discarded it because it was bad. But you would have learned that if you goldfished the idea at all.

In other news, I'm almost finished the primer, just need to boot up the ol' Windoze machine and start up my rusty copy of Photoshop CS5 to crank out some images. I'll post the rough draft of the primer another post so y'all can critique it. No need to be gentle! My feelings don't bruise easily.

Edit: 3 came across a little harsh. Sorry. What I meant to say was: I'm fairly certain that's bad based on testing a similar idea/build, but if you find promising results from testing, let us know.

[Final Fortune]

Actually the discard, go strategy seems kind of interesting, provided you're playing 2nd game two or three depending on the match up you could board in Reanimate/Exhumes.

I definitely give that creativity points/

[phazonmutant]

Rogue Hermit Primer

<Image>

1. Why
2. Card Choices & Strategy
3. History
4. How to Evaluate Opening Hands
5. Match Up Strategies
6. Articles & Results

Rogue Hermit is an extremely fast all-in graveyard combo deck that uses Balustrade Spy and Undercity Informer to mill its whole deck and then win.

Link to previous thread

1. Why play Rogue Hermit?

Because you're a sadomasochistic, fun-hating troglodyte who hates interacting with people? No, that couldn't possibly be it.

Because you enjoy the sweet thrill of winning before your opponent has taken a turn? Yes, that's it!

Rogue Hermit is the fastest deck in Legacy. It has the highest percentage of turn 1 goldfishes of any deck in the format.
But what about Belcher?
Hold your horses, we'll get to you in a minute.
Hey, SI is pretty fast too!
Come on, buddy.

7 of Belcher's 11 win conditions are Empty the Warrens. Now, there's nothing inherently wrong with piles of 1/1 Goblins...

<picture of Golgari Charm, Pyroclasm, Terminus, Batterskull>

Ahem, what was I saying? Ah, right, that Rogue Hermit either mostly or entirely blanks creature removal (depending on the build).

It also only requires assembling 4 mana to Belcher's 6-7 or SI's...counting...stoprushingme...


2. Card Choices & Strategy

First, the goal of the deck is create 4 mana, put a rogue into play, then accidentally your entire deck (technical term). To do this without lands, you need plenty of initial mana sources and rituals. Initial mana sources (IMS) get you going from nothing, but the rituals bump you to 4 mana.

Mana
The mana core of the deck is as follows:
// IMS
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
3-4 Summoner's Pact
0-4 Simian Spirit Guide
0-4 Chancellor of the Tangle

// Rituals
4 Dark Ritual

Lotus Petal is by far the best IMS because it produces black, often the deck's bottleneck. Chrome Mox can be the second black IMS if you imprint a black card. Elvish Spirit Guide produces the deck's second-most important color and importantly can be found with Summoner's Pact so it is always a 4-of. The others are the next most consistent. Chancellor of the Tangle is neat in that it allows one to make a G and also imprint it on Chrome Mox (a perfect complement to Living Wish!), but Simian Spirit Guide is more consistent at making mana. Summoner's Pact is unique in that it can both be a +1 if it finds an Elvish Spirit Guide, but also can find the very important 1-of creature(s)
1 Wild Cantor and rarely,
1 Deathrite Shaman, but Pact has the downside of being entirely all-in.

Cantor seems innocuous, but don't let that 1/1 body fool you. He's a powerhouse at turning Spirit Guides into black mana. Deathrite Shaman is tech from SI that allows a G/B imprint target for Chrome Mox, but is usually not worth it without Culling the Weak.

These mana elements are filled out with some additional (worse) mana producers.
Manamorphose – Deemed necessary by Prosak, garbage by Menendian. Often played as a 4-of to turn red and green mana into black.
Tinder Wall – Facilitates the board plan into Belcher, but awkward to cast in multiples.
Cabal Ritual – It's black (ideal for imprinting), but costs 2.
Grim Monolith – Very good at banking Chancellor or Simian Spirit Guide mana.
Rite of Flame – Some builds prefer this over Cabal Ritual (and/or Tinder Wall).
Lion's Eye Diamond – Only played with Living Wish, although it can serve as the 4th mana to activate Undercity Informer. Bad to draw by itself.

Other packages have been tried and discarded for good reason.
Land Grant (+ lands) – Trust me on this one.
Mox Opal – Terribly inconsistent, can't imprint on Chrome Mox, and pushes you to run Tall Men.
Culling the Weak – Culling is good when you can Land Grant up a Dryad Arbor or Pact up a Skyshroud Cutter. Rogue Hermit can not play lands.

Enablers
These are the cards that enable the combo kill or dig to those that do. By far the most important are the rogues:
Balustrade Spy
Undercity Informer

Every deck runs all 8 in the 75. Living Wish builds need one man in the sideboard – but which one? 4 Undercity Informer in the main allows LEDs to be live more often, but mana is usually tighter when casting Living Wish. The consensus seems to be 4 Informer main.

Many players round out the deck with some additional free cantrips.
Gitaxian Probe
Street Wraith

These have the advantage of making the deck smaller so you don't have to play subpar rituals, but at the cost of making mulliganing much more difficult. Street Wraith is also fantastic for imprinting on Chrome Mox and should always be played first over Probe. Most lists that have done well have included all 8 free cantrips.

Combo Pieces
Ah, the meat of the deck. Now that you've got all your lovely cards in the graveyard, what to do? The most obvious answer is a Dread Return package combined with a kill package.

1) Dread Return Package
The Dread Return package is common to all but one of the kills. I'll show it first, then explain how it works in a bit.
1 Dread Return
1-4 Cabal Therapy
3-4 Narcomoeba
0-2 Bridge from Below

1a) Angel Package
The stock kill package is not especially compact, but resilient both to 1 removal spell and to almost all permanent-based interaction.
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Laboratory Maniac

So how does this work? Mill your deck, put at least 3 Narcomoebas in play. Dread Return, targetting Angel of Glory's Rise, which triggers to reanimate Azami, Lab Man, and all the Undercity Informers and Wild Cantors in your deck. Now with Laboratory Maniac in play, you just need to draw a card. Both Azami and Lab Man can be tapped to draw a card, allowing you to play around at least one removal spell.

An often overlooked trick is to simply pass the turn if you won't die to Pact triggers on the next upkeep. That forces your opponent to make the first move or let you (uncounterably) draw for turn, which allows you to play around 2 (TWO) removal spells.

Therapy is necessary to be able to remove combo pieces from your hand. If you have extra dudes on the battlefield, it can also take any interaction they may have lurking- like Flusterstorm.

It's pretty awkward when you draw a Narcomoeba. Drawing 2 with the standard 4 Narc build? Alert the suicide watch. Yup, despite assembling your combo and milling your deck, it is impossible to cast Dread Return. Playing Bridge from Below allows you to Therapy yourself for drawn combo pieces without going down on men, and also Bridge can imprint for B on Chrome Mox.

1b) Sutured Ghoul Package
The next kill package uses only 2 cards instead of 3.
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon's Breath

The kill is the same up to Dread Return. You return the Ghoul, exile lots of creatures, attach Dragon's Breath, and attack with a very large hastey trampler. It's a two-card kill, what's the problem? Only
Swords to Plowshares, Disenchant, Stifle, Chain of Vapor, Seal of Removal, Echoing Truth, Ensnaring Bridge, Nature's Claim, Abrupt Decay, Wear // Tear
And many others.

But it's ok, you're always winning on turn 1, right? ...right?

1c) Cerberus Package
A new 2-card Dread Return kill has been proposed since the release of Theros:
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Underworld Cerberus
N.b. This requires Street Wraiths and 2+ Cabal Therapies in the main (and a Cantor)

In this kill, you Dread Return the doom dog and then sacrifice it to Cabal Therapy. When it dies, you return all your creature cards to your hand. Exile the Spirit Guides for mana, cast Wild Cantor and sac for U, cast Laboratory Maniac, then cycle Street Wraiths for the win.

The Cerberus kill has the advantage of having one fewer dead card than the Angel kill and is also not realistically vulnerable to removal. However, you must play at least 2 Cabal Therapies in order to discard the Cerberus from your hand if you happen to draw it.

2) Past in Flames Package
This next kill package is completely different and a little intricate. It eschews the Dread Return package entirely for:
1 Memory's Journey
1 Deep Analysis
1 Past in Flames
1 Noxious Revival
N.b. This requires Living Wish and LEDs in the main and Laboratory Maniac in the sideboard.

The basic scenario is (mana in parens):
1. Mill library with access to a G (floating, from an LED, or from a Chrome Mox and an untap step).
2. Memory's Journey 3 LEDs to your (empty) library. Draw a card. This can be for turn or with a Probe in hand, or even if you stack a Street Wraith and respond with Undercity Informer's ability.
3. Play and crack the drawn LED for blue (UUU).
4. Flashback Deep Analysis to draw 2 more LEDs (U)
5. Play and crack the LEDs for RRR and BBB (UBBBRRR)
6. Flashback Past in Flames (UB)
7. Flashback rituals (UBx9)
8. Flashback Noxious Revival on an LED
9. Flashback a Gitaxian Probe, draw LED
10. Crack LED for G (UBx9GGG)
11. Flashback Living Wish for Laboratory Maniac (UBx8GG)
12 Cast Laboratory Maniac (Bx6GG)
13. Flashback Gitaxian Probe, respond to removal with Manamorphose

Coming up with lethal sequences beyond the basic one given mana floating and which cards in hand can be surprisingly intricate. This configuration will take a bit of practice to see all the lines.

So what's the payoff for all this complexity? Only 4 dedicated kill cards main to draw as opposed to 8-11. That's a savings of approximately 1.792 (]here[/url) seppuku (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku)s per person per tournament. It also facilitates a transformational board (more below) since there's fewer dead cards to take out and LEDs are preboaded.

The disadvantage (besides not being able to execute the kill while strung out on a Tijuana bender) is that it requires a G and a draw (or 1UG or 5RG floating). Many Sourcers like nudon and I feel like this is acceptable.

3) Inferior Options
There are a few more kills that are actually strictly inferior to the ones presented. Usually, they revolve around the Dread Return package and The Mimeoplasm.
1 The Mimeoplasm
1 Lord of Extinction
1 Murderous Redcap
This is inferior because it loses to Leyline of Sanctity and very high life totals. Removal is irrelevant for whatever that's worth.

1 The Mimeoplasm
1 Lord of Extinction
1 Triskelion
See above. This one at least has the advantage of being able to gun down pesky creatures like True Believer before going to the dome. Again, for whatever that's worth.

There's a number of other builds, but ultimately they all share the same flaw – with a 3 card package, they either lose to Leyline of Sanctity or to removal or to the attack step.

I believe that there are only two correct choices – the Cerberus Package or the Past in Flames Package. Both are compact and dodge most commonly played forms of interaction. The Cerberus package always wins on the spot but requires at least 9 cards, whereas the Past in Flames package has a reasonable number of situations where it has to pass the turn, but only requires 4 cards. Ultimately, the choice for kill package is yours.

The Sideboard
Oh, the all-in combo sideboard. Often considered...just so irrelevant. Not in this deck! So your opponent just got murdered to death by some big nasty from the graveyard. He can't bring in all those lovely graveyard hate cards quickly enough! But you. You wily dog, you. You have the holy grail of all combo decks – the rare – the unmistakable –

TRANSFORMATIONAL SIDEBOARD
4 Goblin Charbelcher,
sometimes 4 Spoils of the Vault,
and MORE MANA, such as:
Lion's Eye Diamond
Tinder Wall
Grim Monolith
Land Grant
Bayou

Of course, what you have in the board depends on what you have in the main. Those are in (roughly) descending order of preference. Typically that takes up a good 7-11 slots. Now what?

Anti-hate!
Carpet of Flowers – you hate blue mages, right?
Xantid Swarm – what did I say about those blue mages?
What, you wanted answers to other colors? Fine.
Pact of Negation – good against both counterspells and Surgical Extraction. And please. Don't play Pact and LED together. They are not best buds.

Of course, if you're playing Living Wish in the main, a significant amount of sideboard space is spent on Wish targets. There's always going to be one of the rogues and a land. If you're playing the Past in Flames kill there will also be a kill condition. Some other notables:
Hickory Woodlot – sometimes you need GG
Geothermal Crevice – and sometimes you need BG
City of Brass – and sometimes you need to spend 1G to make B. Or other colors.
Phyrexian Obliterator – the biggest, baddest dude that costs 4 or less of 1 color.
Magus of the Moon – a little cheaper and can be a GG against certain decks.
Thrun, the Last Troll – He's hard to remove.
Tomb of Urami – What do you think this is, SI?


3. History

Once upon a time, Balustrade Spy and Undercity Informer were spoiled. I was intrigued. Surely these cards were busted, I thought to myself. After goldfishing a few (dozen) games, I saw it had promise, and made a thread. Turns out a few other people had seen the potential too. The first Rogue Hermit decklist on The Source:

// Mana
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Ritual

// Enablers
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Undercity Informer
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Street Wraith

// Tall Men
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
2 Ornithopter

// Combo Pieces
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Laboratory Maniac
3 Narcomoeba
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return

That list borrowed heavily from the hard work that the SI folks did developing the “Tall Men” build. It was also awful. Culling the Weak and Mox Opal were inconsistent garbage.

Independently, Ziveeman (aka Jason Abong), had come up with a list on his blog (http://mtgdeckblog.tumblr.com) slightly earlier.

Very quickly, Ziveeman, .dk, and I all came up the fix for the mana issues by cribbing from the next evolution of SI, Pact-SI. The essential package was:
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Wild Cantor
Summoner's Pact functions a +G ritual with the help of Elvish Spirit Guide and can also provide critical fixing from green to black.

Things were looking up, but then disaster struck. Adam Prosak wrote an article (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25582_Unveiling-Oops-All-Spells.html) about the deck, and henceforth it was branded with easily the dumbest name in the modern era of Legacy - “Oops! All spells”. Now let's take a minute to talk about names.

Names are important. Names mean things. Rogue Hermit means something – it evokes a powerful nostalgia of a bygone combo, Hermit Druid – and it mentions the lynchpins of the deck – the rogues (Balustrade Spy and Undercity Informer). “Oops!” is about as evocative as a child sounding a vuvuzela next to your eardrum. But it's ok, we're not mad.

In any case, Prosak featured what would come to be the stock build as played by non-Sourcers. Notably, Prosak and his descendants tended to play all 12 free cantrips, while Sourcers tended to gravitate towards Living Wish, LEDs and at most Manamorphose for cantrips. This entrenched the major dichotomy in the deck – cantrips vs. more business spells.

This is exemplified in the best-performing decklist to date:

Jeremy Barbeau
2nd place at SCG Milwaukee, 2013-10-13

// Mana
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Tinder Wall
1 Wild Cantor
3 Summoner's Pact
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Manamorphose

// Enablers
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Undercity Informer

// Combo Pieces
4 Narcomoeba
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Dread Return

// Sideboard
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Grim Monolith
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Tinder Wall
3 Spoils of the Vault

Similar lists have been a scourge upon the Magic Online metagame and placed in the top 16 of SCG Oakland.

Steven Menendian previously had ran with the Source lists and wrote a well-reasoned article (http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-rogue-hermit-legacy-edition/) incorporating Living Wish but importantly not LED or cantrips:
// Business
4 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Living Wish
3 Narcomoeba
2 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Angel of Glory’s Rise
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
4 Pact of Negation
2 Cabal Therapy

// Mana Sources
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Summoner’s Pact
1 Wild Cantor
1 Lion’s Eye Diamond

// Sideboard
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Ebon Stronghold
1 City of Traitors
1 City of Brass
1 Karakas
1 Undercity Informer
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Fiend Hunter
3 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Goblin Charbelcher

Nudon later rebuilt the kill package from the ground up with this innovative list (after some initial refinement):

// Mana
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Tinder Wall
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
4 Manamorphose

// Enablers
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Living Wish

// Combo Pieces
1 Memory's Journey
1 Deep Analysis
1 Past in Flames
1 Noxious Revival

// Sideboard
1 Balustrade Spy
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 City of Brass
1 Hickory Woodlot
1 Geothermal Crevice
1 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Carpet of Flowers

At the moment, it is unclear which is the best among the cantrip-heavy builds a la Prosak, the Living Wish version with the Azami kill a la Menendian, and the Past in Flames kill.


4. How to Evaluate Opening Hands

Count to 4. Next!

But seriously. Don't keep hands that don't have business. Don't do it! The deck is mostly mana, so it's better to mulligan to 5 than to spend 10 turns drawing the rogue. Don't be tricked by those cantrips. They are not business.

If you're playing the Dread Return package, do not ever keep hands with 2 Narcomoebas in them unless you're also playing 2 Dread Return and you can go off right then.

Besides that, just do a little basic math to figure out the probability of drawing the one or two cards you need.


5. Matchup Analysis

Coming...


6. Articles & Results

Results:
2013-04-07 - Hernandez, Tonio - TLA Tourneo 1 - 3rd - [url]http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=4795&d=227708
2013-10-13 - Barbeau, Jeremy - SCG Milwaukee - 2nd - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=59861
2013-12-08 - Chapman, Jefferey - SCG Oakland - 16th - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=61233

Articles:
2013-01-29 - Prosak, Adam - Unveiling "Oops, All Spells!" - http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25582_Unveiling-Oops-All-Spells.html
2013-03-28 - Menendian, Steven - Rogue Hermit: Legacy Edition - http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-rogue-hermit-legacy-edition/


PS:
<3 SI. Despite dogging on the deck, you guys do good work and we wouldn't have been able to get off the ground so quickly without you. Thanks.

[Darklingske]

Nice one, Phazonmutant! Excellent primer! And fun to read too. Just 1 remark: in your explication of the working of the deck you stated:

"It's pretty awkward when you draw a Narcomoeba. Drawing 2 with the standard 4 Narc build? Alert the suicide watch. Yup, despite assembling your combo and milling your deck, it is impossible to cast Dread Return."

Not true when you milled your deck with a Ballustrade Spy. In that case you have a Spy & 2 Moeba's floating around on the BF wich is sufficient to DR Angel. small nuance, but important!

[nudon]

Thanks for writing the primer as it looks pretty solid! I did notice a small typo in the following phrase: "then accidentally your entire deck (technical term)." I think you forgot the word "grind". Also to illustrate your point that cyclers don't count as a business spells, I would edit the headers in the deck list section to reflect this. Aside from that, I thought you did a great job. :)

[GoboLord]

I like the primer. Your very style of writing reflects the simple nature of the deck. Well done.

About that passage:

Rogue Hermit Primer
If you're playing the Dread Return package, do not ever keep hands with 2 Narcomoebas in them unless you're also playing 2 Dread Return and you can go off right then.


How would 2 Dread Return help you in such a situation?
When playing with only 1 Dread Return you can keep T1-kill hands with 2 Narcomoebae only if your Millspell goes by the name of "Balustrade Spy" AND if you have 2 more Narcomoebae in your deck. People tend to forget that Balustrade Spy remains in play and is therefore another body to throw into Dread Return.

[nudon]

I like the primer. Your very style of writing reflects the simple nature of the deck. Well done.

About that passage:


How would 2 Dread Return help you in such a situation?
When playing with only 1 Dread Return you can keep T1-kill hands with 2 Narcomoebae only if your Millspell goes by the name of "Balustrade Spy" AND if you have 2 more Narcomoebae in your deck. People tend to forget that Balustrade Spy remains in play and is therefore another body to throw into Dread Return.

I believe he meant 2 bridge from below instead of DR. With that said, I would personally always run 4 narc (as opposed to 3/2 split) in the DR version. Without spy, your opponent can kill the first narc with 2nd narc trigger on the stack.

Another nuance about the PiF kill is that you don't have to run living wish with it. One can replace noxious revival with ToA. Living wish was added due to its synergy with LED and overall versatility.

[urzatron21]

Can it be added to the primer that the living wish version of the deck will sometimes have greater flexibility in the hands it is able to keep due to the ability to get a dryad arbor/other free creature out of the board to be creature number 3 for dread return.

[GoblinSettler]

Thanks for writing the primer as it looks pretty solid! I did notice a small typo in the following phrase: "then accidentally your entire deck (technical term)." I think you forgot the word "grind". Also to illustrate your point that cyclers don't count as a business spells, I would edit the headers in the deck list section to reflect this. Aside from that, I thought you did a great job. :)

I believe the accidentally intentional. It is an internet thing.

[Chamale]

I've been playing this deck since January, and I have some thoughts on the relative strength of builds using The Mimeoplasm, Angel of Glory's Rise, or Underworld Cerberus as their win condition.

Each of those win conditions might be the best in a particular metagame. The Angel kill loses to an opponent who can cast 2 removal spells, a huge Triskelion can't win against a Leyline of Sanctity or Solitary Confinement. Online, where I play, many decks have 4 Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, and/or Abrupt Decay. No one plays Leyline of Sanctity in the main and few people play Enchantress at all. This means that the Angel kill is much more likely to run into an opponent who can disrupt it. In game 2, I only need to swap out one card (usually Triskelion) to get a new kill available (Giant Solifuge), and many opponents who are unfamiliar with the deck are going to sideboard in the almost-useless Leyline of Sanctity.

There's also the rare circumstance when it's worthwhile to cast one of the win condition creatures. I have won multiple games in the mirror by hardcasting a Triskelion. I once won against mono-red burn with a hardcast Lord of Extinction. I struggle to imagine a circumstance in which Laboratory Maniac or Azami would be worth casting, and Angel of Glory's Rise would hardly ever be possible to cast.

The new Cerberus kill is supposed to increase consistency by reducing the number of dedicated kill cards in the combo. Unfortunately it hurts the combo's consistency by requiring a Street Wraith and a Cabal Therapy to attain the same resilience against counterspells and removal as the Angel kill. Chrome Mox becomes slightly worse because it can't imprint Wild Cantor or Street Wraith now (however, there is an extra Cabal Therapy to imprint when circumstances allow). The Cabal Therapy sacrificing Cerberus does let you force the opponent to discard any number of a particular removal spell you may have seen in their hand. Street Wraith replacing fast mana weakens the deck because it's hard to assess an opening hand with a Street Wraith in it. Since it only replaces one card (probably a Tinder Wall), this is a very slight change.

In conclusion, the Cerberus kill is marginally less consistent and marginally more resilient than the Angel kill. Neither is better than The Mimeoplasm for the MTGO metagame, because The Mimeoplasm kills are able to ignore removal.

Here's the decklist I play on MTGO right now, feel free to critique it:

4 Balustrade Spy
4 Undercity Informer
3 Narcomoeba
2 Bridge from Below
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
1 The Mimeoplasm
1 Triskelion
1 Lord of Extinction
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Manamorphose
2 Tinder Wall
2 Grim Monolith
1 Wild Cantor
4 Pact of Negation

Sideboard:
1 Worldspine Wurm
1 Giant Solifuge
1 Narcomoeba
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Leyline of the Void

[Final Fortune]

I like the Cerebrus kill just fine, not being able to imprint the Street Wraith or Wild Cantor is of little consequence, but I still think the Sutured Ghoul kill is either the best or one of the best kills because it's immune to Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker. I suppose it's not a big deal tho' because it's essentially just turning a Pithing Needle into another copy of Grafdigger's Cage, so the Cerebrus kill "wins out" for me because it's the most efficient kill between the MD and SB in terms of overall card slots (Street Wraith is far from a dead card) and it lets you play 4 Xantid Swarms which is the biggest argument against the Sutured Ghoul kill IMO.

[Chamale]

I like the Cerebrus kill just fine, not being able to imprint the Street Wraith or Wild Cantor is of little consequence, but I still think the Sutured Ghoul kill is either the best or one of the best kills because it's immune to Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker. I suppose it's not a big deal tho' because it's essentially just turning a Pithing Needle into another copy of Grafdigger's Cage, so the Cerebrus kill "wins out" for me because it's the most efficient kill between the MD and SB in terms of overall card slots (Street Wraith is far from a dead card) and it lets you play 4 Xantid Swarms which is the biggest argument against the Sutured Ghoul kill IMO.

The Sutured Ghoul kill loses to any removal spell, and the Cerberus kill loses if my opponent has more removal than I can strip from his hand. I sometimes find myself unable to go off on turn 1 and winning later on, at which point my opponent could have Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt available. My version of The Mimeoplasm kill has a huge advantage against Pithing Needle; if my opponent wasted a turn to play Pithing Needle naming Triskelion, I simply win the game with my sided-in Giant Solifuge.

In my playtesting (done by a computer program that ran thousands of games automatically), I found that 2 Cabal Therapy is the optimal number to make sure I can discard win conditions from my hand. The Cerberus kill needs a 3rd Cabal Therapy to sacrifice the Cerberus, in addition to the Street Wraith. Street Wraith is not a dead card but in an opening hand, it has a 34% chance of being a mana source, a 19% chance of being a ritual, 8% chance of being mana fixing, 14% chance of being a grinder, 7% chance of being a Pact of Negation (in game 1), and 18% chance of being dead. The 1 Cabal Therapy above the optimal amount is dead to my reckoning*, and the Street Wraith is 47% dead if you see an opening hand that's one mana short of going off.

* This extra cabal therapy makes the deck more resilient against multiple removal, but it's still less resilient than The Mimeoplasm build.

I've found Xantid Swarm less useful than Pact of Negation against blue decks. It seems to me that a hand which could cast a Xantid Swarm and win the game next turn could also win immediately if that Xantid Swarm were a Pact of Negation. I've never liked 1-mana answers because this deck has so few permanent sources of mana that a 1-mana spell costs 2 cards to cast.

For those playing Xantid Swarm, have you found it more useful than Pact of Negation or do you run both?

In all my games with The Mimeoplasm I've never lost after flashing back Dread Return, and I've stolen some wins by hardcasting Triskelion or Lord of Extinction. For those playing a kill other than Mimeoplasm, has an opponent ever disrupted you after you cast the Dread Return?

[phazonmutant]

I believe he meant 2 bridge from below instead of DR. With that said, I would personally always run 4 narc (as opposed to 3/2 split) in the DR version. Without spy, your opponent can kill the first narc with 2nd narc trigger on the stack.

Another nuance about the PiF kill is that you don't have to run living wish with it. One can replace noxious revival with ToA. Living wish was added due to its synergy with LED and overall versatility.

You're right, I meant 2 Bridges. I'll note that consensus seems to be 4 Narcs before the first Bridge. I'm not sure I understand the example with Spy. In that example, isn't Bridge just superior?

I'll note the variety of kill cards with PiF.


I believe the accidentally intentional. It is an internet thing.

Correct. It might be a little obscure/dry in writing. I'll work on that

Chamale - Interesting perspective. I'll note the potential advantages of The Mimeoplasm kills.

Final Fortune - you're the only one on the thread that likes Sutured Ghoul. Do you have any tournament results or testing experiences to back up that perspective? If not, I think everyone has made pretty reasonable arguments against Ghoul.


There's some others that have PM'd me with grammar/spelling mistakes, thanks for that! I'm currently working on the images, but my Windows install is fritzing out. I can't tell you how frustrating having my video driver crash, causing photoshop to crash, losing all my work...several times...has been.

[Chamale]

You're right, I meant 2 Bridges. I'll note that consensus seems to be 4 Narcs before the first Bridge. I'm not sure I understand the example with Spy. In that example, isn't Bridge just superior?

I also prefer 3 Narcomoebas with 2 Bridges. Usually there's no difference, but there are a couple cases (especially using Undercity Informer) when that is superior to a 4-1:

- If I had a Narcomoeba and a Bridge from Below in my opening hand, I can target myself with a Cabal Therapy to discard the Bridge, then sacrifice the remaining Narcomoeba to bring myself up to 3 creatures.

- If one Bridge from Below is in my hand, I can cast both Cabal Therapies to remove counterspells from my opponent's hand.

- If my opponent has Swords to Plowshares, the 3-2 split can flashback Cabal Therapy and still have enough tokens to flashback Dread Return.

- I can exile Bridge from Below to Chrome Mox for a black mana, which is much more useful than blue mana.

Sometimes the 4-1 split is better (especially when using Undercity Informer):

- Mogg Fanatic kills a Narcomoeba and exiles both bridges

- If I have a Narcomoeba in hand and my opponent can sacrifice a creature, the 3-2 split doesn't have enough creatures

There don't seem to be many creatures with sacrifice abilities in online Legacy, so I choose the 3-2 split. If I started to see a lot of Mogg Fanatics I'd use the 4-1 split. Normally it only matters if I won with Undercity Informer, since Balustrade Spy is an extra creature and I don't have to worry about enough creatures for a Dread Return.

[Final Fortune]

I haven't used Hermit.dec in a large enough tournament to warrant results worthy of arguing for Sutured Ghoul on that basis, however I'm a believer in playing as few dead cards as possible and Sutured Ghoul allows you to play as few dead cards as possible while not being vulnerable to Pithing Needle. Ofcourse the kill condition is vulnerable to removal, however considering I play the Livinig Wish/Lion's Eye Diamond version of the deck and a full set of Cabal Therapy it's rarely an issue in my experience to be disrupted post-Hermit. The main reason I took up the Cerebrus kill was so that I could board out Lion's Eye Diamond and Living Wish for Pact of Negation, Xantid Swarm and the set of Wild Cantors/Manamorphose post-board.

I disagree with a lot of Chamale's comments, mainly because the value of Cabal Therapy as a card is directly proportional to your ability to cast it i.e. Living Wish -> Swamp etc. The extra kill condition, the extra Bridge add up as a lot of dead weight over time compared to the Street Wraith or the extra Cabal Therapy and things like having LED to discard your kill conditions or Living Wish -> Balustrade Spy to give you an extra body more often than not help off set all of those little worries like drawing double Narcomoeba or double kill condition etc. I used to be paranoid about that kind of stuff too, but it just happens a lot less than drawing 2 extra dead cards all the time and it's one of those things where your brain isn't rational because it remembers all the times you got the "I can't win draws" as opposed to "another shitty dead card draw that could still win" where one happens a lot less than the other and is difficult to determine the overall EV of either.

Ofcourse you play Pact of Negation before you play Xantid Swarm, play both because the deck can easily support at least 4 Pact of Negation, 4 Xantid Swarm and 2 Cabal Therapy post-board if you play the Chancellor of the Tangle version instead of the Tinder Wall version.

The problem with Mimoplasm kill is post-board vs Leyline of Sanctity, you want to be able to board in Xantid Swarm vs Leyline and you can't really do that when you're using the attack phase to kill. The Cerebrus kill lets you play Swarms too and the only real downside is Needle, which I can live with because frankly you need to be more concerned with Surgical Extraction.

[Mr. Froggy]

I just built the deck on MTGO, man the shuffler BLOWS...

I draw my one-ofs every single time.. and I can't get a Rogue in my opener.. -_-

EDIT: On another note, when I do get "normal" hands, the Turn 1-2 % is quite something..

[Chamale]

I haven't used Hermit.dec in a large enough tournament to warrant results worthy of arguing for Sutured Ghoul on that basis, however I'm a believer in playing as few dead cards as possible and Sutured Ghoul allows you to play as few dead cards as possible while not being vulnerable to Pithing Needle. Ofcourse the kill condition is vulnerable to removal, however considering I play the Livinig Wish/Lion's Eye Diamond version of the deck and a full set of Cabal Therapy it's rarely an issue in my experience to be disrupted post-Hermit. The main reason I took up the Cerebrus kill was so that I could board out Lion's Eye Diamond and Living Wish for Pact of Negation, Xantid Swarm and the set of Wild Cantors/Manamorphose post-board.

I disagree with a lot of Chamale's comments, mainly because the value of Cabal Therapy as a card is directly proportional to your ability to cast it i.e. Living Wish -> Swamp etc. The extra kill condition, the extra Bridge add up as a lot of dead weight over time compared to the Street Wraith or the extra Cabal Therapy and things like having LED to discard your kill conditions or Living Wish -> Balustrade Spy to give you an extra body more often than not help off set all of those little worries like drawing double Narcomoeba or double kill condition etc. I used to be paranoid about that kind of stuff too, but it just happens a lot less than drawing 2 extra dead cards all the time and it's one of those things where your brain isn't rational because it remembers all the times you got the "I can't win draws" as opposed to "another shitty dead card draw that could still win" where one happens a lot less than the other and is difficult to determine the overall EV of either.

Ofcourse you play Pact of Negation before you play Xantid Swarm, play both because the deck can easily support at least 4 Pact of Negation, 4 Xantid Swarm and 2 Cabal Therapy post-board if you play the Chancellor of the Tangle version instead of the Tinder Wall version.

The problem with Mimoplasm kill is post-board vs Leyline of Sanctity, you want to be able to board in Xantid Swarm vs Leyline and you can't really do that when you're using the attack phase to kill. The Cerebrus kill lets you play Swarms too and the only real downside is Needle, which I can live with because frankly you need to be more concerned with Surgical Extraction.

I'm aware that I can be biased and not properly comparing the results of different decks, which is why I playtest and record the results. Here's what I just got from 25 games on the play with my build and a Living Wish + LED build:


No Living Wish:
7 Turn 1 kills
8 Turn 2 kills
1 Turn 3 kill
3 Turn 4 kills
6 fizzles

Living Wish + LED:
4 Turn 1 kills
6 Turn 2 kills
6 Turn 3 kills
6 Turn 4 kills
3 fizzles

For both decks, I took a conservative mulligan approach, which will tend to increase the number of later wins and decrease the number of fizzles. These results are statistically significant and show that the Living Wish build is more consistent, but less able to achieve early kills. I suspect this is because Living Wish builds lose a Rogue from the maindeck and hardly ever get to 4GB on the first turn. I found a lot of Living Wish turn 2 kills involves getting something from the sideboard and then untapping, while all the turn 2 kills without Living Wish happened because I needed to draw one more card to go off and did. I never found myself casting Cabal Therapy from Wished-up land, the circumstances never arose to make that possible.

I think this deck's strength is the ability to win games very quickly, before the opponent can cast Thoughtseize, or to win on the draw before Deathrite Shaman becomes active. The non-Living Wish build is faster and better at getting under an opponent, although the Living Wish build is more likely to win eventually against a non-disruptive opponent. I think the fastest build is ideal for the MTGO metagame, but I can't be sure about any of your metagames. I think the Living Wish build is just a long way further along the spectrum of slow and steady, but if you're looking for that kind of deck you may as well play a consistent Storm variant or Dredge.

I may not have been using the best mulligan strategy with the Living Wish build, I'll try to dig up the computer program I used for playtesting and run it again.

[ESG]

OK, at this point I have to ask: Have any of you tested against real opponents playing real decks, or is this all computer programs, theory, and simulation? The last several posts give me déjà vu from the beginning of the thread, when everyone was comparing goldfish rates as if those were the gold standard.

Also, Mogg Fanatic? What kind of bizarre metagame is that?

[Final Fortune]

I think you're experience with Cabal Therapy is going to be "tilted" by whether or not you play Chancellor of the Tangle, things like reveal Chancellor for G, imprint Chancellor on Chrome Mox, Living Wish for Swamp, cast Cabal Therapy for Force of Will and go are pretty common.

[Chamale]

OK, at this point I have to ask: Have any of you tested against real opponents playing real decks, or is this all computer programs, theory, and simulation? The last several posts give me déjà vu from the beginning of the thread, when everyone was comparing goldfish rates as if those were the gold standard.

Also, Mogg Fanatic? What kind of bizarre metagame is that?

I've been playing various builds of the deck online since February. I've only been able to test the LED builds by goldfishing.

Mogg Fanatic is a card that can beat the 3/2 Narcomoeba split. In 10 months I've only ever seen it in one game, and it wasn't a problem because I happened to have a Balustrade Spy. In a bizarre metagame with lots of that guy running around, I'd recommend playing 4 Narcomoebas and 1 Bridge from Below.

[Mr. Froggy]

I've been playing various builds of the deck online since February. I've only been able to test the LED builds by goldfishing.

Mogg Fanatic is a card that can beat the 3/2 Narcomoeba split. In 10 months I've only ever seen it in one game, and it wasn't a problem because I happened to have a Balustrade Spy. In a bizarre metagame with lots of that guy running around, I'd recommend playing 4 Narcomoebas and 1 Bridge from Below.

I agree on the 1-of Bridge from Below, would make going ape-shit with Cabal Therapy so much easier.

Alright, I've been testing the deck out the past 2 days and I have to admit that I'm quite surprised by it, its really good (depending on the match-up) or really glass-cannony in others (same as Belcher) but the raw speed makes up for it. Its also extremely easy to pilot, which can draw people to the deck and extremely cheap to build. For the price of 1 LED, you can pretty much build the whole thing.

[Chamale]

I agree on the 1-of Bridge from Below, would make going ape-shit with Cabal Therapy so much easier.

Alright, I've been testing the deck out the past 2 days and I have to admit that I'm quite surprised by it, its really good (depending on the match-up) or really glass-cannony in others (same as Belcher) but the raw speed makes up for it. Its also extremely easy to pilot, which can draw people to the deck and extremely cheap to build. For the price of 1 LED, you can pretty much build the whole thing.

The question is whether it's better to play 4 Narcomoebas and 1 Bridge from Below, or 3 and 2. Cabal Therapy is quite important because you sometimes need to discard a combo piece, and sometimes need to force your opponent to discard certain cards. Just playing 4 Narcomoebas makes it a risk that you'll end up unable to clear a Force of Will and then flashback Dread Return, or lose because you have two combo pieces in an otherwise keepable hand.

[j1nakamura]

When you're playing with this deck usually the opponent wait to counter Dread Return or do they just counter the Spy/Informer? Because if they counter the Spy then Cabal Therapy doesn't seems that helpful at all.

[Technics]

When you're playing with this deck usually the opponent wait to counter Dread Return or do they just counter the Spy/Informer? Because if they counter the Spy then Cabal Therapy doesn't seems that helpful at all.

If they counter the Spy, that sucks, but you can just play another one. If they counter the Dread Return, you lose the game on the next draw step. Players have countered both, so it really depends.

[dropsaway]

Hi,

with the angel of glory's rise - target dread Return - if I have 4 Kessig Malcontents in my graveyard will cause 40 damage? 10 humans in maindeck (all spells).

[Chamale]

Hi,

with the angel of glory's rise - target dread Return - if I have 4 Kessig Malcontents in my graveyard will cause 40 damage? 10 humans in maindeck (all spells).

It will deal 40 damage, but that's not a kill worth using because it takes more card slots than either the Angel+Azami+Lab Maniac, or Cerberus+Lab Maniac, or Mimeoplasm+Lord of Extinction+Triskelion/Solifuge kill.

In other news, Craig Wescoe wrote an article describing his loss to an Oops, All Spells player. He notes three weaknesses in the Oops, All Spells build that are not present in the "breakfast burrito" build using The Mimeoplasm as a win condition.


My opponent cycled Street Wraith, played Lotus Petal, and passed the turn, indicating that he was at least one combo piece short of going off.

1. Street Wraith is a bad card because an opening hand with Street Wraith in it has less information about whether you should keep it. This opponent kept a subpar hand because the Street Wraith represented a tantalizing chance of giving him enough mana to win, and it probably drew him that Narcomoeba.


Phyrexian Revoker is going to come down next turn, naming Azami, Lady of the Scrolls, and the opponent is going to then have no way to win the game.

2. The Angel of Glory's Rise kill has this weakness, as does the Underworld Cerberus + Laboratory Maniac + Wild Cantor kill (to a Revoker naming Wild Cantor). Against the Mimeoplasm build, Wescoe might have confidently played a Phyrexian Revoker naming Triskelion only to die to Giant Solifuge.


He only has 4 Narcomoebas in his deck. If he draws one of them in his opening hand, then he will only be able to mill 3 of them when he goes off. And if this is the case, then we can Swords to Plowshares one of them while the other two are still waiting to enter the battlefield from their triggers. This will leave him with only two creatures, i.e. one short to flashback Dread Return. And since he has no cards left in his library, he loses on his next turn's draw step. Hence by keeping the Plains untapped to cast Swords to Plowshares drastically increases our chances of winning the game while casting Aether Vial does not really help us at all. In other matchups it does, but not in this one.

In case you're wondering, he only milled 3 Narcomoebas and the fourth was in his hand, so the Plow would have won me the game, but instead I lost because I cast Aether Vial.

3. The Breakfast Burrito build has 3 Narcomoebas and 2 Bridge from Below. It also loses if 1 Narcomoeba is in the hand and the opponent has a Swords to Plowshares, but can still win against Swords to Plowshares if 1 Bridge from Below is stranded in the hand. Cabal Therapy yourself, leaving 1 Narc and 1 Zombie, discard Bridge, and then Therapy the opponent to get 3 Zombie tokens. Neither build can win against 2 Swords to Plowshares, unfortunately, but that's a rare situation.

I still think the difference between Angel of Glory's Rise, Underworld Cerberus, and The Mimeoplasm is essentially a metagame call, but that most conceivable metagames are those in which The Mimeoplasm kill is best.

[Final Fortune]

Chamale I'm liking that build quite a bit, but is there a reason you play a Tinder Wall/Grim Monolith split over Chancellor of the Tangle?

I still think the Cerebrus kill is the best and that its weakness to Pithing Needle can just be shored up by SBing another kill condition, the fact that you don't have to Cabal Therapy yourself to discard Street Wraith or Lab Maniac makes life easier and regardless of how "bad" you think Street Wraith is in your hand it's a lot better than an otherwise dead piece of your kill condition because you don't have to Therapy yourself and as long as you aren't stupid about what hands you keep it actually does cycle into something potentially useful. About the only argument against it IMO is the SB space of having to bring in the alt kill.

The only thing I really debate with myself is rather just playing the 3 Narcomoeba, 2 Bridge from Below package with the Sutured Ghoul, Dragon's Breath kill is the most MD and SB efficient configuration because you're trading the random factor of Street Wraith for the +1 Cabal Therapy and you end up getting one more card you can imprint for black and one more card you can imprint for red/green as opposed to one more card you have to Therapy from your hand if you draw it, at least 3 more open SB spaces and regardless of what you may think that +1 Cabal Therapy matters a lot because if people start holding back Force of Will for your win condition instead of for your Dark Ritual then they are going to cause twice as much damage to you with it knowing the odds of you being able to Cabal Therapy off a Ritual are much less with only 2 as opposed to 3. You also need to think of some play implications, like if you cast a Dark Ritual and they don't counter it then you can safely Therapy naming Surgical Extraction and GG them instantly. I also think worrying about people holding back counter spells if you go off is just kind of dumb, that's a hell of a gamble for them that may easily backfire.

I really think something like,

4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
4 Manamorphose
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Undercity Informer
3 Narcomoeba
2 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon's Breath
4 Pact of Negation
3 Cabal Therapy

is plenty resilient considering you have all the sacking power that 2 Bridge and 3 Therapy can provide to Mind Twist and send in the Cookie Monster.

[Chamale]

Chamale I'm liking that build quite a bit, but is there a reason you play a Tinder Wall/Grim Monolith split over Chancellor of the Tangle?

I often win on turn 2 after waiting a turn to draw a card, and Chancellor of the Tangle is weak in that situation.


I still think the Cerebrus kill is the best and that its weakness to Pithing Needle can just be shored up by SBing another kill condition, the fact that you don't have to Cabal Therapy yourself to discard Street Wraith or Lab Maniac makes life easier and regardless of how "bad" you think Street Wraith is in your hand it's a lot better than an otherwise dead piece of your kill condition because you don't have to Therapy yourself and as long as you aren't stupid about what hands you keep it actually does cycle into something potentially useful. About the only argument against it IMO is the SB space of having to bring in the alt kill.

You raise a great point about the Cerberus kill not needing to discard certain win conditions. It does need to discard Cerberus or Dread Return, but not Laboratory Maniac or Street Wraith. The problem is that if I can't strip my opponent's hand, I'm left vulnerable to a Force of Will on Dread Return. A single removal spell does not beat the Laboratory Maniac, because I can pass priority and use Street Wraith in response to removal. However, it is still weak to multiple removal spells in this situation, much like the Azami kill. If I didn't need to discard anything, the Cerberus kill is similar to the Azami kill, and they're only two cards apart. It's got a slight consistency advantage over Azami or Mimeoplasm, and either deck can wait until the next draw step if it sees the opponent is able to cast removal spells.

Sutured Ghoul loses to all kinds of commonly played spells in Legacy, including StP, Path to Exile, Diabolic Edict, Tear, Golgari Charm, Abrupt Decay, and Nature's Claim. Played alongside a third Therapy, it can clear the opponent's cards and has the consistency advantage you mentioned against removal. It essentially has as many combo pieces as the others because of the third Therapy, but one piece is actually an advantage in the opening hand.

Post-sideboarding, the Sutured Ghoul kill has a serious weakness. If the opponent plays Leyline of Sanctity and drops a fetchland, it's no longer possible to safely go off. This weakness exists for every build except the Mimeoplasm/Solifuge kill, with Ghoul or Cerberus each losing to a single removal spell if the opponent has Hexproof. In an environment with no Leyline of Sanctity, my preferred build would rely on the Cerberus kill, maybe with Angel backup. The problem is a metagame question - even a small number of decks with Swords to Plowshares and Leyline of Sanctity are very dangerous to this build. The Mimeoplasm has a huge advantage against Leyline of Sanctity decks, because unfamiliar opponents will side in Leyline of Sanctity and it won't do much against Giant Solifuge. While the Cerberus kill is weak to decks that can become hex proof, the difference in quality between these decks is such a small one that I think it makes sense as a budget build.

In summary, builds using The Mimeoplasm are significantly better against any decks with Leyline of Sanctity in the sideboard. The Cerberus kill and Sutured Ghoul are fractionally better than the others in a metagame with absolutely no Leyline of Sanctity.

Here's a decklist to play if you're on a budget:


4 Balustrade Spy
4 Undercity Informer
3 Narcomoeba
2 Bridge from Below
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
1 Underworld Cerberus
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Street Wraith
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Tinder Wall
1 Wild Cantor
4 Pact of Negation

Sideboard:
1 Worldspine Wurm
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Leyline of the Void

Replacing Monoliths with Tinder Walls knocks $40 from the price, moving to the Cerberus kill saves another $10. I'm trying to think of a budget Leyline of Sanctity replacement, but it's an important sideboard card against Thoughtseize and Duress and I can't think of anything suitable to go there instead. If you can't afford the Leyline of Sanctities, use Chancellor of the Annex in discard matchups and hope to win quickly, fill the four sideboard slots with Chancellor of the Tangle.

[Final Fortune]

I disagree on Tinder Wall vs Chancellor of the Tangle, the problem with Tinder Wall is that he requires a green mana and he can't be cast in multiples, I've tried Tinder Wall in addition to Chancellor of the Tangle before because at 12 green produces, Chancellor of the Tangle, Elvish Spirit Guide and Summoner's Pact it becomes viable as an odd accelerant.

What card are you waiting to top deck for that isn't another mana source? And if you have to top deck for another mana source, why not play another mana source to begin with in your opening hand? I refuse to ever sacrifice Lotus Petal or imprint Chrome Mox for green mana unless I have to, where the only, conceivable reason would be plays like reveal Chancellor of the Tangle, play Chrome Mox, imprint Chancellor of the Tangle onto Chrome Mox, play Manamorphose. Do you not play Nature's Claim in your SB in order to swap out for Pact of Negation vs any aggro-deck playing Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace or Relic of Progenitus? Because the additional source of green mana is quite relevant vs players who aggressively mulligan into permanent based hate.

What deck plays Leyline of Sanctity and creature/enchantment removal in the same deck? The only decks that play Leyline of Sanctity are in and of themselves combo decks as far as I'm aware, unless it has become a thing in Death&Taxes?

There's a two card kill condition with Angel that involves milling the opponent to death, no one plays it MD because of Sneak Attack but maybe we could play it SB in order to dodge Abrupt Decay, Golgari Charm etc. while keeping the 3rd Cabal Therapy. Counting the 3rd Cabal Therapy as a combo piece is silly, you need to stop gold fishing and start playing real opponents where stuff like Chrome Mox, imprint Cabal Ritual, Cabal Therapy for Surgical Extraction go actually happens quite a lot.

[Mr. Froggy]

I run the Azami kill, but I was thinking of Underworld Cerberus, how is it a better kill? If I understand it correctly you need to cast Lab Maniac, then cycle Street Wraith.

Now what I want to ask, is being forced to cast Lab Maniac really any good? Isn't it just better to cast Dread Return and go from there?

[Chamale]

I disagree on Tinder Wall vs Chancellor of the Tangle, the problem with Tinder Wall is that he requires a green mana and he can't be cast in multiples

This is true, that's why I only play two and two Grim Monoliths.


What card are you waiting to top deck for that isn't another mana source? And if you have to top deck for another mana source, why not play another mana source to begin with in your opening hand? I refuse to ever sacrifice Lotus Petal or imprint Chrome Mox for green mana unless I have to, where the only, conceivable reason would be plays like reveal Chancellor of the Tangle, play Chrome Mox, imprint Chancellor of the Tangle onto Chrome Mox, play Manamorphose.

Against a slow, known deck that certainly won't interact with my combo, it's best to keep a hand with only 3 mana and a grinder rather than trying to mulligan down. When I play against real decks, many of my wins come on turn 3 or 4 because it took a while to draw into a winning hand from a few mulligans.


Do you not play Nature's Claim in your SB in order to swap out for Pact of Negation vs any aggro-deck playing Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace or Relic of Progenitus? Because the additional source of green mana is quite relevant vs players who aggressively mulligan into permanent based hate.

I play Chancellor of the Annex against permanent based hate. It's only one card. I've tried Nature's Claim, with or without Chancellor of the Tangle, and I find it slows me down because I have to wait for it to show up.


What deck plays Leyline of Sanctity and creature/enchantment removal in the same deck? The only decks that play Leyline of Sanctity are in and of themselves combo decks as far as I'm aware, unless it has become a thing in Death&Taxes?

I hadn't thought of that. Thanks! I checked the deck database on StarCityGames and found that only Show and Tell and Dredge decks seem to play the Leyline, and the Cerberus kill is fine against those decks. I think this means it's better than I thought, since it's more consistent, but I'm not certain it's better than The Mimeoplasm. The notable problem is that if I cast a Pact, I can't wait for the next draw step to win against removal, and this deck has 8 Pacts of some kind.


Counting the 3rd Cabal Therapy as a combo piece is silly, you need to stop gold fishing and start playing real opponents where stuff like Chrome Mox, imprint Cabal Ritual, Cabal Therapy for Surgical Extraction go actually happens quite a lot.

In my experience against real opponents with unknown decks, I notice that casting Cabal Therapy and passing the turn is less likely to win than simply going off immediately. By going off I might have been vulnerable to Force of Will, Surgical Extraction, Faerie Macabre, or a couple of less played cards. Waiting a turn to strip my opponent's Surgical Extraction makes me vulnerable to Tormod's Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb, Grafdigger's Cage, Thoughtseize, and cheap counterspells.


I run the Azami kill, but I was thinking of Underworld Cerberus, how is it a better kill? If I understand it correctly you need to cast Lab Maniac, then cycle Street Wraith.

The Cerberus kill is a smidgen more consistent, since it has Cerberus, Lab Maniac, Street Wraith instead of Angel, Lab Maniac, Azami - the Wraith is more useful in an opening hand. It's safe against removal spells because I can look at my opponent's hand with Cabal Therapy, and the opponent is not going to play Leyline of Sanctity unless it's a combo deck without removal spells anyway. If your opponent is able to cast a removal spell, wait for your next draw step or cycle Street Wraith in response to the removal.


Now what I want to ask, is being forced to cast Lab Maniac really any good? Isn't it just better to cast Dread Return and go from there?

It's better to use Underworld Cerberus first, to put the Laboratory Maniac and Street Wraith in your hand. If you already have Street Wraith in your hand, it's slightly better to cast Cabal Therapy twice and then Dread Return targetting the Laboratory Maniac.

I've been thinking about all the scenarios that can come up in a game, and I think the Underworld Cerberus kill is the best one. It loses the game if I cast a Pact, and then find out that my opponent has too many removal spells to take out with Cabal Therapy, but this is unlikely. It's got a 10% chance of drawing a Street Wraith instead of a dead combo piece in the opening hand, and this will make a difference. I'll update my primer soon to explain the changes and how to play the Cerberus build of the deck. My current preferred build is the budget build I posted above, but with 2 Grim Monoliths and 2 Tinder Wall.