Suit up!

[slikwilly]

So I threw this deck together because it's cards I enjoy playing and took it to local legacy tonight. I then proceeded to go 3-0 with it w/o dropping a game, so I figure I'll share the list here.


Lands (21)
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Den
4 Arid Mesa
4 Plateau
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Blinkmoth Nexus

Creatures (18)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Puresteel Paladin
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Etched Champion

Spells (13)
3 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts (8)
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard (15)
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Kor Firewalker
2 Sulfuric Vortex


Puresteel Paladin has been my favorite card since he was spoiled, so I've always wanted to put him to use. I figured Boros Charm was a good way to try since the indestructible mode can protect the paladin (and your gear) and isn't dead in your hand like Apostle's Blessing was (which is a card I've tried in the past to use to protect the pieces).

Anyway, the list looks... less than ideal to me yet it got there. 18 creatures seems too low for Vials, I'm not sure if those are the right swords (F&F seems like a contender), it lacks disruption against combo besides easily dealt with Canonists, etc, etc.

But the flip side is you've got card advantage (F&I triggers, PP triggers), mana advantage (metalcraft on PP, Vial), you've got reach with all the burn (which mostly doubles as removal) and mom makes for lots of dead removal in other players hands. (Bloodbraid flipping dead removal is pretty nice.)

So I squared off against Jund, ANT, and Merfolk tonight. Leyline + Mom is stupid good against Jund, Leyline + Canonist is stupid good against ANT, and Batterskull + Jitte are stupid good against Merfolk.

Needless to say, there's room for improvement. I'd like another land, but I'm not sure I really need it. The Firewalkers in the board can probably go in most metas, they're more a concession to burn locally. I don't think the Vortexes really belong. I'd like some way to shore up the combo matchup in that slot, but being in RW there's not much to be done. Maybe a Humility for the S&T matchups. There's also some Belcher locally which I could use some help against. Leyline and Canonist help, but neither can deal with Warrens (since Canonist is too slow).

Anyway, I'd appreciate some feedback, preferably of the constructive variety.

[(nameless one)]

Sunforger can provide a toolbox, especially postboard when you need hate spells

[Esper3k]

Oh hell yeah, Puresteel Paladin - I love that guy! I have a couple foil Japanese ones lying around just waiting to be used as well!

So a couple questions / considerations I have for you that I ran into while brewing awhile back:

1) Are you finding you have enough equipment to actually abuse with Puresteel Paladin? I fiddled around some with the cheap Living Weapon guys to get more equipment + bodies to throw on.

2) Have you considered Lightning Greaves or Swiftfoot Boots to protect the Paladin?

3) Argentum Armor was another nasty equipment to cheat in with SFM and then free equip with the Paladin.

Oblivion Ring is great against the Show & Tell matchups. Against Belcher, Batterskull is just great against ETW if you can get it down fast enough.

Have you also maybe considered Thalia given that we're cheating most of our equipment into play anyways?

[slikwilly]

RE: Sunforger
I can see how that could be useful, though I think 4 is a good number of equips. It's also pretty costly. Are there any silver bullets that justify it? I can imagine tutoring up something like a Silence to slow down combo, but that only buys a turn (and takes a while to get online in the first place).



Oh hell yeah, Puresteel Paladin - I love that guy! I have a couple foil Japanese ones lying around just waiting to be used as well!

So a couple questions / considerations I have for you that I ran into while brewing awhile back:

1) Are you finding you have enough equipment to actually abuse with Puresteel Paladin? I fiddled around some with the cheap Living Weapon guys to get more equipment + bodies to throw on.

2) Have you considered Lightning Greaves or Swiftfoot Boots to protect the Paladin?

3) Argentum Armor was another nasty equipment to cheat in with SFM and then free equip with the Paladin.

Oblivion Ring is great against the Show & Tell matchups. Against Belcher, Batterskull is just great against ETW if you can get it down fast enough.

Have you also maybe considered Thalia given that we're cheating most of our equipment into play anyways?

Back when Puresteel was in standard I tried the cheap living weapon approach. Didn't really like it. Sure, the triggers are nice, but you have to have so many less than stellar cards in the deck that you don't really want to be drawing. Flayer Husk into Flayer Husk just doesn't get you much. So rather than play to the card drawing aspect of Paladin, I think it better to exploit the mana advantage of getting free equips while relying on the superior power of legacy equipment to make up for running less and then consider the cards a nice bonus. Looked at that way, you don't really need a lot of equipment, but you do have to make sure the ones you run pack a punch. I picked the swords because they not only have useful protections, but also can provide card advantage. (Based on protections alone I still am a huge fan of Body and Mind for being pro-Jace and pro-Goyf, but the mill trigger is a huge liability. Then again, my meta has way more Goyf decks than graveyard decks, so a swap may be in order.)

I haven't considered the greaves or boots. So far mom has been enough to protect the paladin. The only ones I lost yesterday were ones I willingly traded in blocks.

Not a fan of the armor. It's too expensive. If you don't have SFM or PP (or realistically, both) it's pretty bad. 21 lands has little hope of casting or equiping w/o help.

Thalia has been suggested, but it's also pretty awful for the bolts and plows. Might be worth a shot in order to diversify the hate (Canonist will probably stay), but what to remove? Probably the chain lightning and ... ? The way my games were playing out it was pretty much T1 vial, attrition out their creatures w/ my spells while ticking up the vial, then start dropping bombs via the vial. (EOT SFM, followed by EOT PP + SFM activation = awesome) With that in mind I don't want to cut spells, but it may be necessary to improve bad matchups. The question is will it improve them enough to make it viable w/o damaging other matchups too badly?

[Esper3k]

Yeah, it's a tough nut to crack. How good has Boros Charm been for you?

[slikwilly]

Yeah, it's a tough nut to crack. How good has Boros Charm been for you?

Only drawn it twice. First time I lost it to a T2 Hymn. Second time my opponent was at 10 and I had mom + Canonist. Swing with them, Chain Lighting, Boros Charm, game.

I do think I'm going to swap out the Chains for Lightning Helix and possibly 1-2 artifact lands for Mox Opal. Doing so opens up the ability to go artifact land, Vial, Opal on T1 and keep mana up for plowshares/lightning bolt.

[Esper3k]

I was thinking about this some more and was thinking about Goblin Welder in the deck. Gets back your equipment or cycles it in and out to draw more cards?

Seems good in a red deck with lots of artifacts.

[KazinMtg]

If your plan is to play more creatures to make the vials more worth it, how about either thalia, or serra avenger? Both are white, and work well with your deck. Thalia would obviously get even better after cutting some spells, and avenger works great with vial, and since she flies your swords become more worth it. I also am a big fan of feast and famine. I would go fire/ice and f/f.

[Esper3k]

Heh this is slowly turning in to Death & Taxes + Puresteel Paladin (which I was thinking might not be that bad)?

[Barook]

Heh this is slowly turning in to Death & Taxes + Puresteel Paladin (which I was thinking might not be that bad)?
Death & Taxes is a solid base to build on. Nothing wrong with that.

About the deck: Currently still retarded price tag aside, what about Imperial Recruiter? Sounds like an ideal fit, since he can fetch any creature of the deck and goes nicely with Vial. You can play it on T3 and vial in a 2 mana creature immediately. Increasing the amout of Puresteel Paladins/SFMs sounds great.

I would also try to include one Karakas for good measure.

Edit: Recruiter + Vial also allows lots of toolbox stuff in the MD/Sb, e.g. Thalia, Grand Abolisher or True Believer (which compliments your Leylines nicely).

[slikwilly]

About the deck: Currently still retarded price tag aside, what about Imperial Recruiter? Sounds like an ideal fit, since he can fetch any creature of the deck and goes nicely with Vial. You can play it on T3 and vial in a 2 mana creature immediately. Increasing the amout of Puresteel Paladins/SFMs sounds great.

Took the words right from my mouth. I was really hoping the judge promo would improve the $ situation with that card, but even the promo is insanely expensive. Still, having virtual copies of all my dudes seems good. And he can carry a sword.

[Barook]

Took the words right from my mouth. I was really hoping the judge promo would improve the $ situation with that card, but even the promo is insanely expensive. Still, having virtual copies of all my dudes seems good. And he can carry a sword.
The Recruiters aren't really out yet except for the "chosen ones" who get their shit early on. The price should still drop lower.

That said, more Puresteel Paladin available sounds always good. How's the interaction with SFM/Batterskull? For grindier games with lots of mana, it's an uncounterable draw engine while you're most likely still able to equip and use Batterskull thanks to Paladin.

About Sunforger: I'm a fan of the card/combo with Paladin, but I'm not sure if it's really worth it. IF you have Paladin with Metalcraft + Sunforger in play, you can fetch Boros Charm and swing with a 6/2 double striker. Add something like SoFI and it's a lethal swing right out of the box. Although that's in the "danger of cool things" zone.

How easy/hard is it to establish Metalcraft?

[slikwilly]

I have been able to play a few more rounds. I made the following changes from the list in the first post:
MD: -1 Chain Lightning, +1 Ajani Vengeant
SB: -1 Kor Firewalker, -2 Sulfuric Vortex, +3 Mindbreak Trap

I have played these matches:
2-1 vs Maverick. Maze of Ith is a problem, but I got there through 2 maindeck Pridemages, so that was cool :)
2-0 vs Death & Taxes. Not much to say. Their dudes are small, our removal is plentiful.
2-0 vs UR Delver. This was close, but eventually I had more removal than he had countermagic and enough lifegain w/ Jitte/Batterskull/SoLS/Firewalker to survive the fast damage. Jitte is unsurprisingly awesome here.
2-0 vs RDW/Burn. Game 1 is close, but game 2 w/ Firewalker & Leyline is practically unlosable. You do have to watch out for PoP though. That can be a bit uncomfortable since we only run 2 basics and like all stoneblade decks, we're mana hungry.
2-0 vs Goblins. Double striking Jitte activations give us enough removal that I was able to win through 3 Ringleaders, none of which whiffed and one hit on all 4.

The Ajani was good both times I got it, even when I think I misplayed it once (removing a flipped Delver instead of locking it down which exposed the Ajani to an easy counterattack and death).

I will probably play this deck with a few possible changes I am considering:
MD:
-1 SoLS, +1 SoFF
-1 Plateau, +1 Savannah

SB:
-3 something or other
+2 Ancient Grudge (opposing vials and jittes, plus there's a couple affinity players in my meta)
+1 Ray of Revelation (Sulfuric Vortex!)

For the most part though, I am taking an 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' approach with the deck. I have gone 8-0 with it, only dropping a single game in the process. If your meta is light on combo, then this seems like a pretty good deck to sleeve up. It's fun to play too which IMHO is important (c'mon, who doesn't enjoy animating a blinkmoth and sliding a batterskull onto it for free).

Hey, it's my 100th post!

[nedleeds]

Sunforger is Ancestral Recall in this deck if you have PSP out. Check out it's interaction with manamorphose.

[slikwilly]

Sunforger is Ancestral Recall in this deck if you have PSP out. Check out it's interaction with manamorphose.

Heh. That's a nifty trick, but I'll probably hold off until A) my meta catches up to me, or B) I figure I need a way to tutor up the grudges/ray that I'm thinking of adding to the board. -1 SoLS +1 Sunforger does seem doable though. The sword has definitely been good for me, but at the moment it is probably the worst card in the deck.

[Viridia]

I've been thinking about building something like this on MTGO, using Sunforger as a 2-off and a sort of toolbox. Currently i'm so far:

19 Lands
4 Ancient Den
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Great Furnace
2 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Plateau

19 Creatures
2 Etched Champion
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Puresteel Paladin
4 Stoneforge Mystic



20 Other spells
1 Armageddon
1 Batterskull
3 Boros Charm
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Mox Opal
1 Silence
2 Sunforger
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte


Which leaves 2 slots. I'd like 1 or 2 more cards that are amazing to get with Sunforger, but i'm not sure what.

Sideboard i'm thinking things like Boil, Cataclysm etc. + ofcourse the regular combo hate etc.

[slikwilly]

I've been thinking about building something like this on MTGO, using Sunforger as a 2-off and a sort of toolbox. Currently i'm so far:

19 Lands
4 Ancient Den
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Great Furnace
2 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Plateau

19 Creatures
2 Etched Champion
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Puresteel Paladin
4 Stoneforge Mystic



20 Other spells
1 Armageddon
1 Batterskull
3 Boros Charm
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Mox Opal
1 Silence
2 Sunforger
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte


Which leaves 2 slots. I'd like 1 or 2 more cards that are amazing to get with Sunforger, but i'm not sure what.

Sideboard i'm thinking things like Boil, Cataclysm etc. + ofcourse the regular combo hate etc.

I think you have too many equips, and I'm not sure you really ever want > 1 of any (besides Jitte which gets legend ruled off the board entirely too often). Silence seems useful against some combo. If you're really after the Sunforger toolbox I'd say throw in a Disenchant. Can't Cataclysm or Armageddon with Sunforger.

I do like the idea of more basics and no fetches. Depending on if I add the savannah to support the flashback spells I may go that way too. W/o cards to peak at the top, shuffles don't really do much for us and the pings can add up.

[Esper3k]

Man, this deck looks so fun! Time to start gathering some pieces together...

Sunforger tech seems pretty interesting with PSP tech out!

Has anyone really tested the Jund matchup yet? Lightning Bolt + AD sounds like it would make us sad pandas.

[slikwilly]

Man, this deck looks so fun! Time to start gathering some pieces together...

Sunforger tech seems pretty interesting with PSP tech out!

Has anyone really tested the Jund matchup yet? Lightning Bolt + AD sounds like it would make us sad pandas.

Unfortunately about the only time I get to play is my local weekly legacy tournament, so playtesting really doesn't happen. I did play a round against Jund last week. Mom is awesome in that matchup because she negates a lot removal. Use bolts on Shamans and Lily, and Plows for Goyf. Hold Boros Charm to also deal w/ removal. Canonist slows them up and shuts off Cascade. If they land a Lily, sac anything but mom. The games were close, but it's a winnable matchup (according to my two game sample size :wink:).

I've been going over the list of cards that Sunforger can be used with. I have to say, about halfway through the 600+ card list, I am underwhelmed. It has a powerful ability only if you can do something broken with it, and broken doesn't seem to exist in the form of a red or white instant CMC 4 or less. (My query on gatherer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?output=spoiler&method=visual&action=advanced&color=+%40(%7c%5bR%5d%7c%5bW%5d)&type=+%5b"Instant"%5d&cmc=+<%3d%5b4%5d) is slightly off though: it's getting X spells which sucks and not getting hybrid spells that can be a color besides W or R.)

Oh, one change that I'll definitely be making: -1 Chain Lightning, +1 Galvanic Blast.

[Esper3k]

Unfortunately about the only time I get to play is my local weekly legacy tournament, so playtesting really doesn't happen. I did play a round against Jund last week. Mom is awesome in that matchup because she negates a lot removal. Use bolts on Shamans and Lily, and Plows for Goyf. Hold Boros Charm to also deal w/ removal. Canonist slows them up and shuts off Cascade. If they land a Lily, sac anything but mom. The games were close, but it's a winnable matchup (according to my two game sample size :wink:).

I've been going over the list of cards that Sunforger can be used with. I have to say, about halfway through the 600+ card list, I am underwhelmed. It has a powerful ability only if you can do something broken with it, and broken doesn't seem to exist in the form of a red or white instant CMC 4 or less. (My query on gatherer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?output=spoiler&method=visual&action=advanced&color=+%40(%7c%5bR%5d%7c%5bW%5d)&type=+%5b"Instant"%5d&cmc=+<%3d%5b4%5d) is slightly off though: it's getting X spells which sucks and not getting hybrid spells that can be a color besides W or R.)

Oh, one change that I'll definitely be making: -1 Chain Lightning, +1 Galvanic Blast.

Oh yeah good call on Galvanic Blast - we get Metalcraft so often it really shouldn't be a problem for us.

Did you check out Nedleeds' example with Manamorphose + Sunforger? Seems pretty nuts although we need to find somewhere to fit 4x Manamorphose.

Against Jund, Pfires also just seems really problematic. However, we're lucky to be running a deck that can actually use RIP!

[Esper3k]

So I've been just briefly browsing the R/W instants to see what's potentially abusable with Sunforger and brainstormed up some ideas to throw out there to try out with the Sunforger / Manamorphose bustedness:

1) Storm cards: Unfortunately, the only cards that fit the bill are Scattershot, which sucks. However, that doesn't mean we couldn't use it with some other way...

2) Guttersnipe / Kilnfiend: This takes the deck down a different direction than the way it's been going but yeesh, Guttersnipe + Sunforger/Manamorphose = 10 damage (4 Manamorphose plus the last card you're casting). Likewise Kiln Fiend gets ridiculously large... and we are already playing a Sunforgable Instant that can give it double strike...

3) Pyromancer's Ascension: Automatically active with Sunforger + Manamorphose.

Just some ideas I was thinking about!

[Esper3k]

Some Sunforger Instants I saw that could be ok (most as just a 1-of):

Abeyance
Ancient Grudge
Angel's Grace
Aura Blast
Boil
Boros Charm
Celestial Purge
Order//Chaos
Chaos Warp
Disenchant
Enlightened Tutor
Fatal Frenzy (even more hilarious with the Kiln Fiend!)
Final Fortune (combo with Angel's Grace?)
Flame Burst
Gilded Light
Honor the Fallen
Kindle
Lapse of Certainty
Master Warcraft
Path to Exile
Price of Progress
Pulse of the Fields
Punishing Fire (We'd have to rework to play Grove with this)
Purify the Grave
Pyroblast
Ray of Distortion
Ray of Revelation
Red Elemental Blast
Refraction Trap
Return to Dust
Seething Song (potential for mana ramping of some type?)
Shunt (Fuck you, Abrupt Decay!)
Swords to Plowshares
Urza's Rage (maybe as a finisher with Seething Song ramping?)
Wild Ricochet (super fuck you, Abrupt Decay!)

[slikwilly]

I think there's a couple ways the deck can/could go, but I think a couple have already been explored.

1) mid-range Boros Stoneblade. This is more or less my approach. Control the early board w/ Bolts and Plows, then in the mid- to late-game get there on equipment backed beats protected by mom.

2) Storm combo. (I think you mean Grapeshot, as Scattershot only targets a creature.) Could be interesting, but I don't think it's worth it. We don't have the library manipulation to support combo, nor a particularly good draw engine to get going. Manamorphose is fun w/ Sunforger for sure but you're looking at Puresteel + Sunforger + 2 other artifacts + manamorphose + Grapeshot. Too many cards. Especially if they're do nothings w/o the rest of the combo.

3) Guttersnipe I like a little better, but mostly as incremental value for our bolts + plows. If he cost 1R I'd definitely find a home for him. At 2R I'm less convinced.

4) Pyromancer. Okay, we get it activated w/ Manamorphose. Now what? The deck doesn't have the critical mass of spells to really make it worth it.

These are of course just my opinions. Until they're tested they don't mean a whole lot.

Is there a good way to recycle Angel's Grace + Final Fortune into infinite turns? (That doesn't require Doomsday + Soldevi Digger...) If so that could be fun, but if not then not enough value.

[Barook]

As tempting as it is, I wouldn't try to get fancy with Sunforger.

I would just include Manamorphose for draw + filtering and then burn/beat them to death with chained Boros Charms. Seems more effective and has less dead cards since you still need a high artifact count.

[Esper3k]

As tempting as it is, I wouldn't try to get fancy with Sunforger.

I would just include Manamorphose for draw + filtering and then burn/beat them to death with chained Boros Charms. Seems more effective and has less dead cards since you still need a high artifact count.

So far in the version I'm testing, that's what I'm doing as well. Just putting in the 4x Manamorphose for nuts card draw once Sunforger is online.

[James]

This deck seems preety funny and well positioned in the current meta.

One of the things I should be worry about (as all the artifact based decks) is Pernicious Deed (I think Boros Charm is crucial here and is one of the main reasons for playing it).

Given that Aether Vial is key in this deck, maybe Phyrexian Revoker is an option, it would help against opposing Lilianas, Deathrites, Reliquarys and its an artifact.

I would definetly play with Thalia. She is so powerful against combo, Canadian and BUG...I would increase the number of creatures if needed.

In addition, I should include 2 copies of Cavern of Souls maindeck, Mother of Runes, Puresteel Paladin , Mirran Crusader and Canonist are enough humans to justify them.

One thing I'm missing in a deck with equipments is Geist of Saint Traif, is really color RED more powerful than BLUE? I know Lightning Bolt is quite important as early removal but Brainstorm + Vendilion + additional counterspells seems interesting. I assume that this deck is not viable as UWR.

[slikwilly]

Well, I finally took some loses. They were inevitable, but winning a bunch was nice while it lasted.

This is the list I ran this week:

Land
4 Ancient Den
4 Arid Mesa
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Great Furnace
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Plateau
1 Savannah

Instants
1 Galvanic Blast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Boros Charm

Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Puresteel Paladin
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Etched Champion
2 Mirran Crusader

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Planeswalkers
1 Ajani Vengeant

Sideboard:
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Mindbreak Trap


Matchups this week were RUG (1-2), Belcher (2-1), Dredge (2-0), UR Delver (0-2), UG Enchantress (0-2).

I took game one against RUG after he dropped me down to 4. I landed a Batterskull and then was able to put a SoFF on it. He scooped when I was at 26. The loses were at the hands of Nimble Mongeese. All the removal I have is targeted and I couldn't find and/or land a Champion, Crusader, or SoFF to deal with them. It didn't help that I walked right into a Daze of my Ajani in one of the loses.

Belcher I lost G1 before talking a turn (have I mentioned how much I hate combo?). G2 I opened with a Leyline in play and a Mindbreak Trap in hand for the attempted Warrens. G3 I again had Leyline and he had no Warrens to fall back on. He was able to use Belcher to keep my board clear until I drew a Grudge to remove the Belcher so I could play some dudes. That wasn't cool because it meant living in fear of Warrens since I couldn't play out a Canonist.

Against Dredge it came down to poor dredges and an active Jitte in G1 and a well timed Surgical on his Bridges in G2.

Against UR Delver in G1 he had a fast open w/ T1 Guide, T2 Guide + Chain Lighting, and more fast damage T3. I tried to plow the T1 Guide but he had the FoW. It was one of those insane aggressive hands that that deck has. G2 was slightly better. I managed to stabilize and land a Stoneforge w/ an active Mom to get a Batterskull, but he ripped Sulfuric Vortex off the top. Ugh! Took a few turns and then I died. Had I lived another turn, my next card was Ray of Revelation. Sometimes you get the sick rips and sometimes the other guy does.

The Enchantress games were just for fun. Not surprisingly, we fold hard. No way to interact with the Enchantress or really do much of anything to slow them down. We're not fast enough to race them.

I'm not sure the loses warrant any drastic changes. I would have liked the Sunforger to go get my RoR though, that's for sure. I never really was all that happy w/ the SoFF or the SoLS before that, so maybe Sunforger can go in that slot. A cheap way to deal w/ Mongeese would be nice. Maybe Engineered Explosives, but it would take out Mom which is very bad for us. Perhaps Bonfire, though w/o a way to put it back on top I really don't want it. It's also currently more $$$ than I'm willing to put into that card.

[goblinsplayer]

I think Thalia is a good addition to the deck, however, i also think this deck runs too many noncreature spells to support it. Wouldn't it be good as a sideboard card to just board in against combo?

[slikwilly]

I think Thalia is a good addition to the deck, however, i also think this deck runs too many noncreature spells to support it. Wouldn't it be good as a sideboard card to just board in against combo?

The blasts, surgicals, and leylines all have some combo application (depending on the type). Not sure what I'd cut from the board for her. Maybe the jitte? I haven't found myself bringing it in much, that that's only one slot.

[Esper3k]

Given that most of the noncreature spells we'd actually be casting are cmc 1, I don't think Thalia hurts that much. She does make Sunforger worse as well though.

[ironclad8690]

Well, I finally took some loses. They were inevitable, but winning a bunch was nice while it lasted.

This is the list I ran this week:

Land
4 Ancient Den
4 Arid Mesa
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Great Furnace
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Plateau
1 Savannah

Instants
1 Galvanic Blast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Boros Charm

Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Puresteel Paladin
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Etched Champion
2 Mirran Crusader

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Planeswalkers
1 Ajani Vengeant

Sideboard:
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Mindbreak Trap


Matchups this week were RUG (1-2), Belcher (2-1), Dredge (2-0), UR Delver (0-2), UG Enchantress (0-2).

I took game one against RUG after he dropped me down to 4. I landed a Batterskull and then was able to put a SoFF on it. He scooped when I was at 26. The loses were at the hands of Nimble Mongeese. All the removal I have is targeted and I couldn't find and/or land a Champion, Crusader, or SoFF to deal with them. It didn't help that I walked right into a Daze of my Ajani in one of the loses.

Belcher I lost G1 before talking a turn (have I mentioned how much I hate combo?). G2 I opened with a Leyline in play and a Mindbreak Trap in hand for the attempted Warrens. G3 I again had Leyline and he had no Warrens to fall back on. He was able to use Belcher to keep my board clear until I drew a Grudge to remove the Belcher so I could play some dudes. That wasn't cool because it meant living in fear of Warrens since I couldn't play out a Canonist.

Against Dredge it came down to poor dredges and an active Jitte in G1 and a well timed Surgical on his Bridges in G2.

Against UR Delver in G1 he had a fast open w/ T1 Guide, T2 Guide + Chain Lighting, and more fast damage T3. I tried to plow the T1 Guide but he had the FoW. It was one of those insane aggressive hands that that deck has. G2 was slightly better. I managed to stabilize and land a Stoneforge w/ an active Mom to get a Batterskull, but he ripped Sulfuric Vortex off the top. Ugh! Took a few turns and then I died. Had I lived another turn, my next card was Ray of Revelation. Sometimes you get the sick rips and sometimes the other guy does.

The Enchantress games were just for fun. Not surprisingly, we fold hard. No way to interact with the Enchantress or really do much of anything to slow them down. We're not fast enough to race them.

I'm not sure the loses warrant any drastic changes. I would have liked the Sunforger to go get my RoR though, that's for sure. I never really was all that happy w/ the SoFF or the SoLS before that, so maybe Sunforger can go in that slot. A cheap way to deal w/ Mongeese would be nice. Maybe Engineered Explosives, but it would take out Mom which is very bad for us. Perhaps Bonfire, though w/o a way to put it back on top I really don't want it. It's also currently more $$$ than I'm willing to put into that card.

Enlightened tutor could be used alongside Ethersworn Cannonist/Serenity to stop enchantress; in fact E. Tutor board seems like it could improve a host of this deck's poor matchups.

I have used E. Tutor in maverick with limited success, but it gives you a better chance against some matchups which might otherwise be next to unwinnable (i have fought enchantress with enough aggro/midrange decks to know that you pretty much have no chance once sterling grove + solitary confinement hit the field)

[slikwilly]

Given that most of the noncreature spells we'd actually be casting are cmc 1, I don't think Thalia hurts that much. She does make Sunforger worse as well though.

Agreed, it's more a matter of making room. I like the maindeck as is (though tonight I'm going to try -1 SoFF, +1 Sunforger). Making room for Thalia in the board seems easier said than done though.

[Esper3k]

Agreed, it's more a matter of making room. I like the maindeck as is (though tonight I'm going to try -1 SoFF, +1 Sunforger). Making room for Thalia in the board seems easier said than done though.

While Ethersworn Canonist in the main helps with Metalcraft, I think Thalia in the main is considerably stronger in general especially when you slap equipment on her.

Has anyone tried the deck to see how hard it is to get Metalcraft without Canonist?

I personally would cut the Crusaders and play more Etched Champions to help compensate (as well as I like Champion more in general anyways).

[ScatmanX]

I've been testing this deck too, and must say, it is AWESOME. Thanks for creating it.

My build is little more burn oriented, with 4 Galvanic Blast, 4 Bolt, and 3 Boros Charm. StP went down to 2 to make room for all that, but I'm not missing it at all. Goys are handled with Crusader, Mom, and are usually on G.Blast range.

To help Metalcraft I've been running 1 Mox Opal that has been great (tested 2, and the 2nd one sucked), as well as 1 Sensei's Divining Top, which has been fine.

In testing I asked myself if Thalia would be better than Cannonist whenever I drew it, and it would not. Stopping Broodbraid Elf Cascade and Snapcaster has been awesome, as well as many other things. Also, Thalia would almost always have hurt too much.

Want to get the cards to play with it someday for real =]

[slikwilly]

While Ethersworn Canonist in the main helps with Metalcraft, I think Thalia in the main is considerably stronger in general especially when you slap equipment on her.

Has anyone tried the deck to see how hard it is to get Metalcraft without Canonist?

I personally would cut the Crusaders and play more Etched Champions to help compensate (as well as I like Champion more in general anyways).

I haven't. Canonist being an artifact is really just a happy coincidence. I wanted some sort of hatebear and Thalia hurts the deck too much. Canonist does too though. It sucks when you can burn someone out but you have to give them an untap because you can only play one on your turn.

Double strike w/ Jitte or a sword is too good. This deck is lacking in card advantage but a double striking Jitte will go a long way to equalize that in a fair match.

I do like the idea of an e-tutor board, though Serenity is hella-bad for us what w/ 8 artifact lands and Vials...

[Esper3k]

Yeah I'm like 2 Boros Charms away from finishing getting cards together.

I love Mirran / Phyrexian Crusader but my problem with Mirran is that against Jund, Pfires and Lightning Bolt just wreck him.

[slikwilly]

Yeah I'm like 2 Boros Charms away from finishing getting cards together.

I love Mirran / Phyrexian Crusader but my problem with Mirran is that against Jund, Pfires and Lightning Bolt just wreck him.

Ran into Punishing Jund (0-2) tonight. It did not end well. Between Bob, P-Fire, and BBE I was overwhelmed by his card advantage. I just didn't have the removal to answer all the threats. I hadn't run into a P-Fire build before. I figured that card would be murder. He actually didn't get much use out of it, but good Hymns, and an unanswered Bob are bad for any deck.

I also played BUG (2-1), Affinity (2-0), and Merfolk (0-2). Merfolk should be fine. Don't recall much of G1. G2 I never got a red source while having Ancient Grudge, 2x Lightning Bolt, Ajani Vengeant in hand with Ancient Den, Savannah, Plains, Blinkmoth on the board. Of course, he also had a T2 Chill, so it may not have mattered. Only saw one STP as well. He got a Jitte on board that I was able to keep off counters until I legend ruled it, but by then he had 2x Master + Lord + 2x Mutavault. Umm...

Not much to say about BUG or Affinity.

The list was the same as my previous one except MD -1 SoFF, +1 Sunforger SB -1 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 SoFF. I never wanted to tutor up the Sunforger. It kinda sucks w/o a Puresteel, and every time I thought it about, it just seemed lackluster, even with lots of useful targets for it to tutor. It's just so much mana if you don't have Puresteel. 3 to equip + 2 to activate. It's tough to muster that much. I'll probably give it another go next week though. I hate to cut it w/o ever even hitting it.

As for the burn heavier build: that seems legit. I may try to squeeze in another Blast, but cutting StP I'm not a fan of. That card is too good. How did you make room for the Opal? I've thought about cutting an artifact land for one. What have you found to the best use for the faster mana? T2 Champ? T2 SFM w/ Daze protection?

So for a hypothetical e-tutor board, what would go in? 3-4 e-tutor, engineered explosives, maybe a CoP:Red? Aura of Silence? Tormods Crypt, Ghostly Prison, Blind Obedience, Rest in Piece, Pithing Needle/Revoker, O-Ring.

Cursed Scroll might be okay in here too. With card draw so scarce, it could be a potential source of virtual card advantage, though it takes a lot of mana and lots of stuff won't die to it.

[Esper3k]

I wouldn't go with the full on 4 eTutors, but tend to like about 2 so you can have more space in the sideboard for actual enchantments/artifacts.

Relic, RIP, Aura of Silence, CoP / Worship / Warmth / Aegis of Honor for burn, Sulfuric Vortex, Rule of Law, Nevermore, O-Ring, are all viable enchantments and artifacts we could get.

In the burn heavier builds, have you thought about using PtE instead of StP?

[ScatmanX]

As for the burn heavier build: that seems legit. I may try to squeeze in another Blast, but cutting StP I'm not a fan of. That card is too good. How did you make room for the Opal? I've thought about cutting an artifact land for one. What have you found to the best use for the faster mana? T2 Champ? T2 SFM w/ Daze protection?
I'm playing all 8 artifact lands. When I go home I'll post the list. Opal is great whenever it shows up.

I thought of a suggestion while pondering about the E.Tutor board.
Wouldn't this deck be a great candidate to run the Meekstone / Blind Obedience 'combo'?
The idea came from a decklist on Carsten's last article (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25717_Eternal-Europe-ndash-Diamonds-In-The-Rough.html).
Meekstone seems like a perfect fit for the deck, while we can certainly profit from using Blind Obedience, giving us reach and tapped blockers. What do you guys think?
Anybody cares to try a decklist?

[Malchar]

I've actually been messing around with a sunforger combo deck for some time. There was another thread on this forum a few years ago around the time when puresteel was first printed. I was never able to get something good enough to try testing, but the suggestion of pyromancer ascension got me thinking that it just might work. Also, since you can find the ascension with an enlightened tutor off the sunforger, its inclusion is basically free.

The key is to alternate between seething song to generate mana and manamorphose to get white mana to keep powering the sunforger. Then you just finish them with urza's rage since you can pay the kicker when you cast it off the sunforger. With pyromancer ascension, you'll easily have enough mana, and you get the free kicked copy of urza's rage to make it 20 damage.

There's also another method which uses astral steel to attack for the win. I haven't done all the math yet, but it might even work without pyromancer ascension, which means you could kill them with merely puresteel + sunforger + metalcraft and some starting mana. Here are some of the potential cards:
4x manamorphose
4x seething song
hearth charm (unblockable)
order//chaos
astral steel
strange inversion
boros charm
overblaze
fatal frenzy
fling

There's also eladamri's call + storm entity.

You also have the option of starting off with an abeyance to make sure that the combo is safe.

[Barook]

I've actually been messing around with a sunforger combo deck for some time. There was another thread on this forum a few years ago around the time when puresteel was first printed. I was never able to get something good enough to try testing, but the suggestion of pyromancer ascension got me thinking that it just might work. Also, since you can find the ascension with an enlightened tutor off the sunforger, its inclusion is basically free.

The key is to alternate between seething song to generate mana and manamorphose to get white mana to keep powering the sunforger. Then you just finish them with urza's rage since you can pay the kicker when you cast it off the sunforger. With pyromancer ascension, you'll easily have enough mana, and you get the free kicked copy of urza's rage to make it 20 damage.

There's also another method which uses astral steel to attack for the win. I haven't done all the math yet, but it might even work without pyromancer ascension, which means you could kill them with merely puresteel + sunforger + metalcraft and some starting mana. Here are some of the potential cards:
4x manamorphose
4x seething song
hearth charm (unblockable)
order//chaos
astral steel
strange inversion
boros charm
overblaze
fatal frenzy
fling

There's also eladamri's call + storm entity.

You also have the option of starting off with an abeyance to make sure that the combo is safe.
Ramping up with Songs + Manamorphoses + Abeyance into Astral Steel + Fatal Frenzy + Fling could work, but costs too many slots.

Main problem with Fatal Frenzy is that it Sunforger is unattached while it's on the stack and you can't reequip due to sorcery speed.

[slikwilly]

I'm playing all 8 artifact lands. When I go home I'll post the list. Opal is great whenever it shows up.

I thought of a suggestion while pondering about the E.Tutor board.
Wouldn't this deck be a great candidate to run the Meekstone / Blind Obedience 'combo'?
The idea came from a decklist on Carsten's last article (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25717_Eternal-Europe-ndash-Diamonds-In-The-Rough.html).
Meekstone seems like a perfect fit for the deck, while we can certainly profit from using Blind Obedience, giving us reach and tapped blockers. What do you guys think?
Anybody cares to try a decklist?

I thought about Meekstone too, but it will shut off your sword carrier since it will end up w/ power 3+. Not an issue if it's on a Blinkmoth or the same creature as batterskull though. It might still be okay though, but probably need to do some rework. Up the blinkmoth count to 4, and probably have to lose the Mirrans among other things in order to make room. It being a combo I'm not sure you can get away w/ 1 Meekstone, 1 Blind Obedience, 2-3 E-tutor either since your odds of getting both are pretty bad. So that means opening a bunch of slots so you could have something like 2 Meekstone, 2-3 Blind Obedience, 3 e-tutor. How to do that w/o changing the character of the deck is beyond me. You'd probably want to go mono-white, maybe a small splash for other hatebears (Teeg comes to mind immediately). I think then we really do end up going down the D&T road, just w/ Meekstone/Blind Obedience instead of the Mangara lock.


Ramping up with Songs + Manamorphoses + Abeyance into Astral Steel + Fatal Frenzy + Fling could work, but costs too many slots.

Yeah, that's a ton of slots. I don't think comboing out w/ Sunforger is worth the trouble. I'm just trying it to see if can get some value out of its utility. The ability to tutor up a Boros charm, StP, Bolt, Ancient Grudge, Ray of Revolation all seem potentially useful. More than that is the proverbial danger of cool things.


I'm playing all 8 artifact lands. When I go home I'll post the list. Opal is great whenever it shows up.

How's that list coming? I a little eager to see another take on the concept :)

[ScatmanX]

How's that list coming? I a little eager to see another take on the concept :)
Sry for the delay.
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Den
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Arid Mesa
4 Plateau
1 Plains
1 Mox Opal

4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Puresteel Palladin
3 Ethersworn Cannoist
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Etched Champion

4 Galvanic Blast
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Boros Charm
3 Sword to Plowshers

4 Aether Vial
1 Sensei's Divining Top (maybe should be the Jitte)
1 Batterskull
1 Sunforger
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Regarding Meekstone/Blind Obedience, I tried to incorporate it on the deck, but wasn't successful on the Wr list, so decided to cut R, going MonoW, heading more towards DnT, like you suggested, but the core is still Suit Up. Here's what I came up with:

WHITE SUIT
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ancient Den
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
9 Plains
1 Mox Opal

4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Puresteel Palladin
3 Ethersworn Cannoist
2 Thalia
1 Phyrexian Revoker (or 3 Thalia. This is here because of E.Tutor)
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Etched Champion

4 Sword to Plowshers

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

2 Blind Obedience
2 Meekstone
1 Enlightened Tutor

SB:
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Path to Exile
3 Rest in Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 CoP: Red
1 Engineered Explosives
1 O.Ring
1 Honor of the Pure

Haven't tested this yet, but on paper it looks solid. What do you think?
Edit: ok, preliminary testing have shown that White Suit sucked a lot.... =(

[slikwilly]

I like the idea of the SDT, but Jitte is too good to cut for it. I'd get rid of Sunforger myself. In fact, I may try this. I also like having the basic mountain. Next time I get a chance to run the deck (probably not until next week) I may go -1 Sunforger, -1 Paladin :cry:, +1 Mox Opal, +1 SDT.

Mono-white list looks pretty good, but I'd want at least 2, preferably 3, e-tutor. Maybe -1 Mirran, -1 Canonist, +2 e-tutor.

Someone in the Rock thread recently mentioned a mono-white agro list doing well by him, and there was one on a recent SCG where a D&T list did well. Might be a good time to dig into mono-white a bit more.

[CRich3]

I have been looking for a playable puresteel paladin deck for months. I think I will try to throw this together and try to play some games. Just need to pick up a few cards.

[berksowl]

Regarding Meekstone/Blind Obedience, I tried to incorporate it on the deck, but wasn't successful on the Wr list, so decided to cut R, going MonoW, heading more towards DnT, like you suggested, but the core is still Suit Up. Here's what I came up with:

WHITE SUIT
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ancient Den
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
9 Plains
1 Mox Opal

4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Puresteel Palladin
3 Ethersworn Cannoist
2 Thalia
1 Phyrexian Revoker (or 3 Thalia. This is here because of E.Tutor)
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Etched Champion

4 Sword to Plowshers

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

2 Blind Obedience
2 Meekstone
1 Enlightened Tutor

SB:
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Path to Exile
3 Rest in Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 CoP: Red
1 Engineered Explosives
1 O.Ring
1 Honor of the Pure

Haven't tested this yet, but on paper it looks solid. What do you think?
Edit: ok, preliminary testing have shown that White Suit sucked a lot.... =(

Mono-white is the direction I'd tend to go, not only because I don't own most of those red cards. I was also thinking about a Meekstone, semi-control element in an otherwise aggro deck. Something like this:


4 Goldmeadow Harrier
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
2 Meekstone
4 Path to Exile
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
15 Plains
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Disenchant
3 Judge's Familiar
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Rest in Peace
2 Swords to Plowshares

It seems like vigilance is our best friend here.

Blind Obedience seems like it could be a good card to incorporate, though I don't feel sure that it's good enough.

[slikwilly]

Glad to see some posts in this thread again! I'm off the deck until SCG Milwaukee. I got my ass handed to my by a metric ton of combo of all sorts at SCG Indy and decided I want some counter-magic when MKE rolls around, so I'm playing a few weeks rocking a blue deck until then.

RE: the mono-white builds: the idea seems fine though I'd suggest only running 3 Puresteel (you really want it in your opening hand IMHO) and probably only 3 equips though w/ ~24 maybe a 4th is okay. I will forever lament Batterskull being the only worthy living weapon (Mortarpod being next best to me). I'd also suggest Ethersworn Canonist over the Goldmeadow Harrier. Tappers just don't cut it but Canonist is good against a lot of combo and conveniently also stops Cascade. With RIP, O-Ring, and Meekstone I think an e-tutor plan is also a good idea. Maybe -1 equip, -1 PP, +2 e-tutor with a third in the board? That also lets you diversify your board because you can probably trim numbers on the enchantments there.