Feelings about show and tell being banned

[Lejay]

From what I hear it seems that almost anyone except show an tell players would be happy to see show and tell being banned. Reasons why it should or should not be banned and why I think it will be in June are another discussion. Here I just wanted to make a poll to see how that hypothetical ban would be received by the legacy community.

[Koby]

Really? Again?

[Lejay]

It's not meant to be a discussion about the banning.

[DLifshitz]

From what I hear it seems that almost anyone except show an tell players would be happy to see show and tell being banned. Reasons why it should or should not be banned and why I think it will be in June are another discussion. Here I just wanted to make a poll to see how that hypothetical ban would be received by the legacy community.

Oh wow, it's this thread again.

Show and Tell hasn't been close to being a problem for some time now.

[Mr Miagi]

Just lock this shit up..

[Lejay]

I don't even mind if thread is locked. The poll is the only thing I'm interested in.

[alphastryk]

SnT is absolutely not a problem. It's not overpowered or oppressive in any way. Can we stop having this discussion again? (I have never played SnT as a maindeck plan since mystical tutor was banned). I have lost maybe 2 matches out of 30 or so to SnT in that timeframe. It is very beatable.

Also, bannings are tied to set releases now, so the next change possible would be when Dragon's Maze releases, which is in May, not June.

[phazonmutant]

S&T is brainless, but also not oppressive. It's a sweet board card for certain decks too. I'm going to be holding on to my set and really have no fear of bannings.

Banning S&T because it's an easymode 2-card combo is akin to banning Goblin Charbelcher because it's a brainless one-card combo. Both seem suspect.

[Damoxx]

I love S&T. It lets me belcher someone with out ever playing a spell.

[lochlan]

Ban Doomsday!!

[Koby]

The power of S&T waxes and wanes are people are playing more or less ridiculous uncastable cards.

While Jund is popular, Show & Tell waxes.
While RUG and UW are popular, Show & Tell wanes.

This is the natural part of the Legacy cycling of decks.

[KobeBryan]

From what I hear it seems that almost anyone except show an tell players would be happy to see show and tell being banned. Reasons why it should or should not be banned and why I think it will be in June are another discussion. Here I just wanted to make a poll to see how that hypothetical ban would be received by the legacy community.

Did you lose to show and tell yesterday on cockatrice?

[.dk]

Show and Tell is fine. Sure, it's an easier combo deck to play, but it isn't oppressive. There are many was to fight through it, both with targets to put in play to answer their permanents, as well as things like Clique in response. While I personally don't really like the easier 2 card combo decks, I don't see why that should be a reason to get rid of them if other people do.

[menace13]

I'd rather they ban LEDS, Lejay

[bfeingersh]

But I picked up these pretty Japanese ones and I was hoping to at least get 2+ years of use out of them :(

[Richard Cheese]

Yeah it's really not too bad. When Sneak/Show started getting popular it seemed like it was just an unstoppable monster, but it clearly isn't. It's a good deck at certain times, but it has some issues and some bad matchups, like any good Legacy deck.

Not really sure why they would ban it now when it's fairly clear it isn't having a huge impact on the format.

[socialite]

Massive trolling directed at Lejay, sorry bud. :(

Haters are going to hate.

Show and Tell is probably fine despite being completely cheesy. Please direct me to reasonable and conclusive evidence that a ban is warranted.

[Lejay]

Give me two months.^^

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I wouldn't complain if SNT were banned.

Fun to play with. Miserable to play against.

[Shawon]

While I hate Show & Tell so much, I have to agree with others and say like Counterbalance, it's power waxes and wanes with the flow of the metagame.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't want to WotC to deliberately print a more expensive functional reprint of Yawgmoth's Bargain just so we can finally have a reason to ban Show and Tell. (I'm aware Griselbrand exists.)

[rxavage]

So S&T takes advantage of the Jund infested meta and all the BUG decks siding Fow, places, and now we get threads like this again. If your pet deck can't beat Show and Tell, figure out how to or play something that does if it's that big of a problem.

[cuthbertthecat]

I think the only reason show and tell would be banned is if wizards decided to start banning cards based on some abstractly defined power level vs difficulty to pilot ratio. In that case, charbelcher, fireblast, emrakul, griselbrand, possibly lion's eye, and several others would have to go as well. The bannings being decided in that fashion would be interesting though, it would make fewer easy wins occur.

[mini1337s]

It's not that it's too good/oppresive, it's more that... how do I put this... it's more that Show and Tell
http://jamesboard.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/feelsbadman.jpg


It certainly keeps the meta a little more diverse, and I'd be sad to see it go. I've dealt with my fair share of Show and Tell on the receiving end (Maverick, etc), but you adapt a bit, and forget about the games where they just had the nuts.

Feels bad man, but do not ban

[baghdadbob]

Ban Filthy Cur before it breaks the format!

[Megadeus]

When I first broke into legacy last may I wanted that card banned so hard. I was terrified of it and combo in general. But after actually having played a few times against it, it is definitely a good deck but it is far from UN beatable. Sure I think it is a dumb card and it doesn't take as much skill to play but I like having a very divers e format

[Lemnear]

I'd rather they ban LEDS, Lejay

Not cool

http://imageshack.us/a/img268/3976/115nn.jpg

[dontbiteitholmes]

From what I hear it seems that almost anyone except show an tell players would be happy to see show and tell being banned. Reasons why it should or should not be banned and why I think it will be in June are another discussion. Here I just wanted to make a poll to see how that hypothetical ban would be received by the legacy community.

From what I hear, everyone on this board is tired of people crying about Show and Tell.

[Smmenen]

Show and Tell wouldn't be a problem if people played more Flusterstorm in this format. I play with 3 maindeck, partly for Show and Tell. It ruins their day.

[Lejay]

From what I hear, everyone on this board is tired of people crying about Show and Tell.
Who is crying about show and tell ?

[Koby]

Who is crying about show and tell ?

Apparently 32% of the votes register would be happy to see it gone, putting them in the clear minority.

[Dark Ritual]

I'd love to see that card banned. It limits innovation in the format because most decks can't ever beat a resolved show and tell, and some deck archetypes simply can't exist with the card around. Not to mention the card is incredibly easy to play, and I hate it when my opponent resolves show and tell into the nuts because they had show 2U available as well as a high CMC card to deploy. Card is actually black lotus x3 most of the time, and almost everyone agrees that black lotus is busted in half.

@Smmenen: Flusterstorm is too narrow to be good in the maindeck of the grand majority of legacy decks. Spell pierce is far superior to the card in legacy as it can at least counter jace while flusterstorm looks at jace and says "Come at me bro." Same with sensei's top and counterbalance.

Also, one day WotC will print the most busted permanent ever and show and tell will get the axe. It's only a matter of time unless WotC is careful about printing a broken card to pair with show and tell to get it banned in legacy and possibly restricted in vintage. Card has limitless potential to be busted. It's the reason I traded my playset off a while ago, I didn't want to lose out on 200 dollars when show and tells banning drove it down to 5 dollars a pop or something quite low in comparison.

[rxavage]

Just for fun. Why don't we ban the card that is actually a closer to Black Lotus, Lion's Eye Diamond, albeit conditional it is a more apt comparison.

[Tormod]

What are Sneak Shows bad match ups?

I used to think it was Esper stoneblade, then they started playing 4 leyline of sanctity in the board.

[Koby]

Any deck that doesn't put pressure on Sneak Show will lose to inevitability. RUG and BUG Tempo can beat this Sneak Attack versions by dropping a fast Delver/Goyf and riding soft counters to victory. Thalia + KotR also beat this deck on a regular basis.

[Jacemindbreak]

Any deck that doesn't put pressure on Sneak Show will lose to inevitability. RUG and BUG Tempo can beat this Sneak Attack versions by dropping a fast Delver/Goyf and riding soft counters to victory. Thalia + KotR also beat this deck on a regular basis.

Well...what deck doesn't lose if you don't put any pressure on the opponent.

[socialite]

Just for fun. Why don't we ban the card that is actually a closer to Black Lotus, Lion's Eye Diamond, albeit conditional it is a more apt comparison.

Sure 'nough, he's a trollin stone.

[TraxDaMax]

What are Sneak Shows bad match ups?

I used to think it was Esper stoneblade, then they started playing 4 leyline of sanctity in the board.

Won more games with Elves against sneaky show then I lost. Humulity and O-Ring off their own Show and tell is hilarious. Or just comboing out before they do why they durdle for something to actually put into play.

Edit: Out of 6 games, I lost twice. One due mulligan twice, other time them getting a turn 1, and two.

[socialite]

Six games. Well we can close this thread we've obviously reached statistical significance.

[TraxDaMax]

Six games. Well we can close this thread we've obviously reached statistical significance.

So funny.

Anyways, never had a problem with the deck playing Elves. How many times do you face a deck in a tournement? Well I did 6 times back when it was heavily played and lost twice, with only once them having nutty hands in two games. Point is, you don't even need a disruptive deck to beat SnT.

[Megadeus]

I'd love to see that card banned. It limits innovation in the format because most decks can't ever beat a resolved show and tell, and some deck archetypes simply can't exist with the card around. Not to mention the card is incredibly easy to play, and I hate it when my opponent resolves show and tell into the nuts because they had show 2U available as well as a high CMC card to deploy. Card is actually black lotus x3 most of the time, and almost everyone agrees that black lotus is busted in half.

@Smmenen: Flusterstorm is too narrow to be good in the maindeck of the grand majority of legacy decks. Spell pierce is far superior to the card in legacy as it can at least counter jace while flusterstorm looks at jace and says "Come at me bro." Same with sensei's top and counterbalance.

Also, one day WotC will print the most busted permanent ever and show and tell will get the axe. It's only a matter of time unless WotC is careful about printing a broken card to pair with show and tell to get it banned in legacy and possibly restricted in vintage. Card has limitless potential to be busted. It's the reason I traded my playset off a while ago, I didn't want to lose out on 200 dollars when show and tells banning drove it down to 5 dollars a pop or something quite low in comparison.

Thry already printed a card that makes all of your spells frew. That isnt enough?

[Tammit67]

Any deck that doesn't put pressure on Sneak Show will lose to inevitability. RUG and BUG Tempo can beat this Sneak Attack versions by dropping a fast Delver/Goyf and riding soft counters to victory. Thalia + KotR also beat this deck on a regular basis.

BUG tempo is nice because of the discard, but I've found RUG to not have the disruption package to adequately face them. Pierce/daze never seem do much against show when I'm the one casting the daze. It pretty much comes down to do I have force and can they beat it if I do. And often preboard it is yes. Postboard REB is nice, but I really dislike playing as RUG preboard in the amtchup

[walker]

Why isn't anyone talking about banning Brainstorm? Can we have that conversation again too? Please? /endtroll

[Megadeus]

Brainstorm is so broken. We should just ban every one drop. They are just too good for only one mana.

[Shawon]

Brainstorm is so broken. We should just ban every one drop. They are just too good for only one mana.

Now that you mention it, fucking Healing Salve. There's just something about that card that makes my blood boil...

[Koby]

Now that you mention it, fucking Healing Salve. There's just something about that card that makes my blood boil...

I agree. In the format's best deck (Nourishing Lich), it better than Ancestral Recall. Clearly b0rken!

[nedleeds]

Show and Tell decks wouldn't work without 4 x Brainstorm ... I'm just saying ...

[Lejay]

Apparently 32% of the votes register would be happy to see it gone, putting them in the clear minority.
Being happy about show and tell being banned doesn't mean you where crying about the card. You can have a very good match-up against show and tell decks and yet still hate the way the games play out because it's so uninteresting.

[menace13]

If they're going to ban SnT, then they might as well just implement Ari Lax's Legacy ban list.


LetMeKnowIfIAmDoingThisRight:

Personally I think Storm has more of a negative impact on what can be played in Legacy.

Most decks can't beat storm, and some archetypes simply can't exist with the deck around. I hate when my opponent resolves a bunch of mana and tutors into the nuts because their deck is all mana and tutors. Deck is actually like playing with 4x Black Lotus and Demonic Tutor most of the time, and almost everyone agrees that those are busted in half.


Also, Brainstorm

[lavafrogg]

There is no "show and tell" hate card that can be side boarded in against it to better your matchup. General cards work like thoughtseize, wasteland, Thalia, but they are all super situational. One round you can play a Show and Tell player that shows in a griselbrand you bring in an O ring, they draw 7 and blow you out. Sometimes you have the O-ring and they land the sneak and sneak in an Emrakul...and blow you out.

Wasteland can slow them down but some hands do not give a fuck about wasteland. Every deck has certain cards that it does not want to see played against it. Show and tell cannot be stopped by a single card and the many decks it spawns even require different hate cards to fight...hive mind, omniscience, sneak attack, emrakul, reanimator, dream halls...the only commonality is getting to 3 mana and winning the game with counter magic back up.

Graveyard decks have the most ridiculous forms of hate imaginable. Storm not only has to fight through discard and counters but super effective hate bears/artifacts/lock pieces. Green midrange decks suck it to a perish, while goblins/weenies hate sweepers/pyroclasms in general. Print efficient hate cards for show and tell and I will not hate it, for now...fuck that stupid card.

[menace13]

There is no "show and tell" hate card that can be side boarded in against it to better your matchup. General cards work like thoughtseize, wasteland, Thalia, but they are all super situational. One round you can play a Show and Tell player that shows in a griselbrand you bring in an O ring, they draw 7 and blow you out. Sometimes you have the O-ring and they land the sneak and sneak in an Emrakul...and blow you out.

Wasteland can slow them down but some hands do not give a fuck about wasteland. Every deck has certain cards that it does not want to see played against it. Show and tell cannot be stopped by a single card and the many decks it spawns even require different hate cards to fight...hive mind, omniscience, sneak attack, emrakul, reanimator, dream halls...the only commonality is getting to 3 mana and winning the game with counter magic back up.

Graveyard decks have the most ridiculous forms of hate imaginable. Storm not only has to fight through discard and counters but super effective hate bears/artifacts/lock pieces. Green midrange decks suck it to a perish, while goblins/weenies hate sweepers/pyroclasms in general. Print efficient hate cards for show and tell and I will not hate it, for now...fuck that stupid card.

It is true that there is not a single one card that can beat Show And Tell decks. There are a lot of cards that beat it half of the time. Karakas, Humility, Venser, O-Rings, AoDespair. Commonly played cards interact with it as well. The deck isn't winning enough, so clearly some cards beat it. Seems obvious.

The Show and Tell personal hate is making people say any old stupid shit to justify them feeling bad about the card.

How the fuk is Thoughtseize super situational against Show and Tell?...... Because, They don't need cards in hand?(trollollface)

And, somehow Thoughtseize, to you, is not situational against other decks, only Show And Tell? Righhhttt. Seems logical, brah.

Discard is big game against Show decks.

Hint: Wasteland works the way you described it against, wait.. for.. it... .. every deck with non basic lands.

Storm players saying the deck is not fun, uninteresting to play against :really:

For the record, I love the damned card, and every deck it goes into. I guess I can understand people hating certain cards. I hate creatures under 8 mana, and Red cards. Discuss.

[xfxf]

As much as the hate against S&T is narrow (kind of a hit and miss thing) their attack vectors are also a hit and miss against a wide range of narrow hate cards. When they go for Omniscience route they don't know whether they'll be hit with Angel of Despair or when they go Sneak Attack they don't know they won't be hit by Humility. The variance goes both ways, I think that's what keeps S&T decks in check.

The longer S&T stays in the format the harder it will be for them to ban the card and the harder the backlash will be when/if they do. I think if they are going to eventually do it they should do it at the next cycle because more and more people are getting into S&T decks, lots and lots of different decks are being built around the card or just standing on its shoulders as a sideboard backup plan so it will be quite a shitstorm if they do it when more people are on board.

[Purgatory]

I'd be sad. I just love aiming my 50 cent Spell Pierces at people's $60+ sorceries.

[Jayman]

Please let's not turn legacy into a turn guys sideways format. I left standard for that very reason. It's just board control vs aggro decks so boring. The great thing about legacy is knowing people can do broken stuff but usually things like show and tell are very all in so it's not a problem. In all honesty I think adrupt decay is more oppressive then show since show you can you actually interact with. Speaking of which show and tell matchups are more interactive and interesting I rather play against show then let's something like goblins any day. Just to let you guys know I'm not a combo player.

[Nihil Credo]

It's not meant to be a discussion about the banning.

"How would you feel if this card were to be banned?" isn't a discussion about the banning? Oh please.