There are some who call me...Tim.

[KazinMtg]

This concept was an old favorite casual deck of mine, and it beats up on other casual decks pretty badly. After enough beatdowns, I decided to spice it up a bit and throw in some force of wills and a nice mana base, and see if it could compete against anything that remotely matters. Before I test it, do you guys have any ideas to improve this classic?


4 Prodigal Sorcerer
4 Zuran Spellcaster
4 Rootwater Hunter
4 Aphetto Alchemist
4 Curiosity
4 Keen Sense
4 Instill Energy
4 Cerulean Wisps
4 Force of Will
4 Noble Hierarch

4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Ancient Tomb
5 Island
3 Forest

[nevilshute]

I'd probably try and find room for:

-Some more counter magic. Maybe Spell Pierce or even Counterspell

-2-4 Pemmin's Aura

I'd cut some of your pingers as 12 seem excessive. I'd go with 6-8. Running the Pemmin's Aura also means you could probably cut some or all of the Aphetto Alchemists.

Other than that it looks like fun. I played a (very casual) version of this deck a few years ago. I was running it mono blue and had a big issue with any non-creature permanents that got through my counter magic. Not sure adding green really solves that.

Anyway, looks like fun :)

[KazinMtg]

Thanks for the reply! Pemmin's Aura is a great call. I can see that getting out of hand.

The reason I went green mainly was to add 4 more curiosity to the deck, which is the entire engine it runs on. Also instil energy is surprisingly good in here when you throw it on a tim with 2-3 curiosities already on it.

I agree with our issue with permanents. What about Beast within? It's easy to cast in this deck, and a few tims can get rid of a 3/3 creature pretty simply. Might be a perfect fit.

[Justin]

Sigil of Sleep

[KazinMtg]

Sigil of Sleep

Ooooo that's actually a fantastic idea! Picking up 4 of these asap.

[GoboLord]

Chrome Moxen, maybe?
I can also imagine that Basilisk Collar would be a nice SB option to take care of creature-based decks.

[trevaftw]

Horseshoe Crab
Hermetic Study

And if you splash red

quicksilver dagger
fire whip

[MaximumC]

I think this type of deck is good in a meta filled with creatures, but you need to run the best creatures at what they do. Recently, there were some RUG decks in Standard that did this well. Strangely, in Legacy, I think blue is perhaps one of the weakest colors for this effect.

Generally, I think a deck with lots of pingers can be successful, but it needs to do two things. First, the pingers must emerge early enough that they can trump early x/1s. Second, the deck must leverage deathtouch and/or curiosity effects to allow the pingers to stay relevant into the late game, when they otherwise would be outclassed. With that in mind, let's examine your options:

1. 3cc Pingers That Are Terrible (Do not run these)

Prodigal Sorcerer
Zuran Spellcaster
Rootwater Hunter
Thornwind Faeries
Apprentice Sorcerer
Capricious Sorcerer
Prodigal Pyromancer
Samite Archer
Mage Il-Vec (hahahahahahahaha.... so bad)
Suq'Ata Firewalker

Yes, these are nostalgic, but they're all very bad. They come down on turn 3 and do nothing. They are going to come down too late to matter, or if they do matter, they will die before they do anything. Don't touch these. the only possible exception is Firewalker, who at least has pro red, but even then he's pretty terrible.

2. 1cc Pingers

EDIT -- Grim Lavamancer
Kris Mage (probably not good unless you've got a madness angle)
Granger Guildmage
Shadow Guildmage

Provided your colors can support them, I believe these guys form the backbone of a successful ping deck. An early Lavamancer or Guildmage preys hard on Deathrite Shaman, Goblins, and some hatebear builds. Incidentally, Deathrite Shaman doesn't count as a pinger because he can't hit creatures and he doesn't even do damage to players, which means he doesn't interact with Curiosity or with deathtouch.

3. 2cc Pingers That Are Slightly Less Terrible

Combajj Witches (fun times if you wanna use High Priest of Penance in your ping deck)
Fireslinger
Razorfin Hunter

These guys have pluses and minuses. The biggest plus is that they are the cheapest pingers other than the guildmages. The minuses are... they come down too late. Witches has a wonderful 1/3 butt (butts?), but she precludes you from running other x/1s yourself, and she requires a strong black commitment that the rest of the deck you are making probably can't support. Fireslinger and Razorfin are very good if you need a 2-drop that pings to ensure you're landing one early.

3. Hasty Pingers That are Pretty Decent

Cunning Sparkmage
Vulshock Sorcerer
Izzet Staticaster

These are probably the only pure-damage 3cc pingers I would even consider running seriously. That's because they each function as removal even in a worse-case senario. Sparkmage is the easiest to cast of the lot, and his lack of power hardly matters in a deck designed to ping. Vulschock and Izzet require heavy color commitment. Izzet is probably better, netting you both Flash and an echoing effect, but note that it does not hit players so cannot use curiosity effects. I feel like Izzet is fine if you have a heavy deathtouch theme, but I don't know if you'd want to run them after maxing out on Sparkmages.

4. Combo Pingers

Gelectrode
Cinder Pyromancer
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
EDIT -- Guttersnipe

Gelectrode and Pyromancer get along great in a "machine-gun" style deck that works off of cheap instants to keep getting the untap effect. Lava Dart is probably the prime example. Niv-Mizzet, of course, wins the game with a curiosity effect. Guttersnipe, while he can't ping on his own, is basically a better version of Cinder Pyromancer in a deck that is planning to win by casting alot of cheap spells.

5. Other Interesting Dudes

Fallen Ferromancer - Expensive, but his infect is superior to regular ping.
Jaya Ballard - Nice effect against Merfolk or Delver if you can stick her.
Vithian Stinger - At least he comes back once for a 1R ping out of the yard. Still probably too slow.


6. Support Cards

Nightshade Peddler
Basilisk Collar
Gorgon Flail
Quietus Spike

Curiosity
Ophidan Eye
Keen Sense
EDIT -- Snake Umbra

There's actually very little choice here. You have the cards that give you deathtouch and you have the cards that give you curiosity effects. Which you run and in what proportions depend on what your ping deck is trying to do. Combo decks want lots of curiosity and a splash of deathtouch. R/G builds probably want more deathtouch, and Spike for a quick kill once the board is clear.

CONCLUSIONS

I think you can go in three general directions with a ping deck. You can go U/R, RUG, or G/R.

U/R - You're probably going for more of the counterburn / combo style. You can't use the guildmages, so some early removal like Bolt and Lava Dart cover your bases on turn 1. Probably want to max out your 2-drop pingers in color, and then use four to eight combo creatures to ensure a win later. Four to eight curiosity is probably a good idea, some countermagic, and maybe a set of Collars. A singleton Niv Mizzet helps finish in style.

RUG - I think this is a balanced deck that ends up looking and playing alot like recent Standard builds, but with more curiosity, better countermagic, and perhaps a Niv Mizzet kill. I wouldn't run the other combo pingers here, though.

G/R - This becomes all about deathtouch and dominating aggro decks. You get Guildmage, and if you splash black, you get EIGHT guildmages. With 4-8 one drop pingers, and then 4 - 8 Peddlers / Collar / Spike, you are set to really wreck aggro decks. The two-drop and hasty three-drop pingers might also have a home, allowing you to fight removal with just plain more dudes.

[TraxDaMax]

Grim Lavamancer and Goblin Sharpshooter, with Basilisk Collar both are neato. I actually top 8'ed with a deck like that once.

[theillest]

I think this type of deck is good in a meta filled with creatures, but you need to run the best creatures at what they do. Recently, there were some RUG decks in Standard that did this well. Strangely, in Legacy, I think blue is perhaps one of the weakest colors for this effect.

Generally, I think a deck with lots of pingers can be successful, but it needs to do two things. First, the pingers must emerge early enough that they can trump early x/1s. Second, the deck must leverage deathtouch and/or curiosity effects to allow the pingers to stay relevant into the late game, when they otherwise would be outclassed. With that in mind, let's examine your options:

1. 3cc Pingers That Are Terrible (Do not run these)

Prodigal Sorcerer
Zuran Spellcaster
Rootwater Hunter
Thornwind Faeries
Apprentice Sorcerer
Capricious Sorcerer
Prodigal Pyromancer
Samite Archer
Mage Il-Vec (hahahahahahahaha.... so bad)
Suq'Ata Firewalker

Yes, these are nostalgic, but they're all very bad. They come down on turn 3 and do nothing. They are going to come down too late to matter, or if they do matter, they will die before they do anything. Don't touch these. the only possible exception is Firewalker, who at least has pro red, but even then he's pretty terrible.

2. 1cc Pingers

Kris Mage (probably not good unless you've got a madness angle)
Granger Guildmage
Shadow Guildmage

Provided your colors can support them, I believe these guys form the backbone of a successful ping deck. An early Guildmage preys hard on Deathrite Shaman, Goblins, and some hatebear builds. Incidentally, Deathrite Shaman doesn't count as a pinger because he can't hit creatures and he doesn't even do damage to players, which means he doesn't interact with Curiosity or with deathtouch.

3. 2cc Pingers That Are Slightly Less Terrible

Combajj Witches (fun times if you wanna use High Priest of Penance in your ping deck)
Fireslinger
Razorfin Hunter

These guys have pluses and minuses. The biggest plus is that they are the cheapest pingers other than the guildmages. The minuses are... they come down too late. Witches has a wonderful 1/3 butt (butts?), but she precludes you from running other x/1s yourself, and she requires a strong black commitment that the rest of the deck you are making probably can't support. Fireslinger and Razorfin are very good if you need a 2-drop that pings to ensure you're landing one early.

3. Hasty Pingers That are Pretty Decent

Cunning Sparkmage
Vulshock Sorcerer
Izzet Staticaster

These are probably the only pure-damage 3cc pingers I would even consider running seriously. That's because they each function as removal even in a worse-case senario. Sparkmage is the easiest to cast of the lot, and his lack of power hardly matters in a deck designed to ping. Vulschock and Izzet require heavy color commitment. Izzet is probably better, netting you both Flash and an echoing effect, but note that it does not hit players so cannot use curiosity effects. I feel like Izzet is fine if you have a heavy deathtouch theme, but I don't know if you'd want to run them after maxing out on Sparkmages.

4. Combo Pingers

Gelectrode
Cinder Pyromancer
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind

Gelectrode and Pyromancer get along great in a "machine-gun" style deck that works off of cheap instants to keep getting the untap effect. Lava Dart is probably the prime example. Niv-Mizzet, of course, wins the game with a curiosity effect.

5. Other Interesting Dudes

Fallen Ferromancer - Expensive, but his infect is superior to regular ping.
Jaya Ballard - Nice effect against Merfolk or Delver if you can stick her.
Vithian Stinger - At least he comes back once for a 1R ping out of the yard. Still probably too slow.

6. Support Cards

Nightshade Peddler
Basilisk Collar
Gorgon Flail
Quietus Spike

Curiosity
Ophidan Eye
Keen Sense

There's actually very little choice here. You have the cards that give you deathtouch and you have the cards that give you curiosity effects. Which you run and in what proportions depend on what your ping deck is trying to do. Combo decks want lots of curiosity and a splash of deathtouch. R/G builds probably want more deathtouch, and Spike for a quick kill once the board is clear.

CONCLUSIONS

I think you can go in three general directions with a ping deck. You can go U/R, RUG, or G/R.

U/R - You're probably going for more of the counterburn / combo style. You can't use the guildmages, so some early removal like Bolt and Lava Dart cover your bases on turn 1. Probably want to max out your 2-drop pingers in color, and then use four to eight combo creatures to ensure a win later. Four to eight curiosity is probably a good idea, some countermagic, and maybe a set of Collars. A singleton Niv Mizzet helps finish in style.

RUG - I think this is a balanced deck that ends up looking and playing alot like recent Standard builds, but with more curiosity, better countermagic, and perhaps a Niv Mizzet kill. I wouldn't run the other combo pingers here, though.

G/R - This becomes all about deathtouch and dominating aggro decks. You get Guildmage, and if you splash black, you get EIGHT guildmages. With 4-8 one drop pingers, and then 4 - 8 Peddlers / Collar / Spike, you are set to really wreck aggro decks. The two-drop and hasty three-drop pingers might also have a home, allowing you to fight removal with just plain more dudes.
Great post, tagged.

[TsumiBand]

No Turnabout? :(

[MaximumC]

Grim Lavamancer and Goblin Sharpshooter, with Basilisk Collar both are neato. I actually top 8'ed with a deck like that once.

Sharpshooter suffers from the same problem the other expensive pingers suffer from (summoning sickness), and while he is awesome with deathtouch, I feel like he doesn't really go into the "ping" deck as well as he does into a Goblin deck. If he had haste, he would absolutely be a one-of in R/G, since he would be a board wipe on legs.

Lavamancer should have made my list, but I was limited my scope to 1 damage pingers only. Once we open the door to others, we start talking about stuff like Arc Slogger and Lightning Crafter. Anyway, Lavamancer is weaker in a meta full of Deathrite Shaman, but he's still a very solid 1-drop pinger.


No Turnabout? :(

Why? If you have resolved two or three pingers and not lost yet, great, you get to cast Turnabout to turn 2UU into 2-3 damage. That's not exactly rock star status.

[KazinMtg]

I think this type of deck is good in a meta filled with creatures, but you need to run the best creatures at what they do. Recently, there were some RUG decks in Standard that did this well. Strangely, in Legacy, I think blue is perhaps one of the weakest colors for this effect.

Generally, I think a deck with lots of pingers can be successful, but it needs to do two things. First, the pingers must emerge early enough that they can trump early x/1s. Second, the deck must leverage deathtouch and/or curiosity effects to allow the pingers to stay relevant into the late game, when they otherwise would be outclassed. With that in mind, let's examine your options:

1. 3cc Pingers That Are Terrible (Do not run these)

Prodigal Sorcerer
Zuran Spellcaster
Rootwater Hunter
Thornwind Faeries
Apprentice Sorcerer
Capricious Sorcerer
Prodigal Pyromancer
Samite Archer
Mage Il-Vec (hahahahahahahaha.... so bad)
Suq'Ata Firewalker

Yes, these are nostalgic, but they're all very bad. They come down on turn 3 and do nothing. They are going to come down too late to matter, or if they do matter, they will die before they do anything. Don't touch these. the only possible exception is Firewalker, who at least has pro red, but even then he's pretty terrible.

2. 1cc Pingers

Kris Mage (probably not good unless you've got a madness angle)
Granger Guildmage
Shadow Guildmage

Provided your colors can support them, I believe these guys form the backbone of a successful ping deck. An early Guildmage preys hard on Deathrite Shaman, Goblins, and some hatebear builds. Incidentally, Deathrite Shaman doesn't count as a pinger because he can't hit creatures and he doesn't even do damage to players, which means he doesn't interact with Curiosity or with deathtouch.

3. 2cc Pingers That Are Slightly Less Terrible

Combajj Witches (fun times if you wanna use High Priest of Penance in your ping deck)
Fireslinger
Razorfin Hunter

These guys have pluses and minuses. The biggest plus is that they are the cheapest pingers other than the guildmages. The minuses are... they come down too late. Witches has a wonderful 1/3 butt (butts?), but she precludes you from running other x/1s yourself, and she requires a strong black commitment that the rest of the deck you are making probably can't support. Fireslinger and Razorfin are very good if you need a 2-drop that pings to ensure you're landing one early.

3. Hasty Pingers That are Pretty Decent

Cunning Sparkmage
Vulshock Sorcerer
Izzet Staticaster

These are probably the only pure-damage 3cc pingers I would even consider running seriously. That's because they each function as removal even in a worse-case senario. Sparkmage is the easiest to cast of the lot, and his lack of power hardly matters in a deck designed to ping. Vulschock and Izzet require heavy color commitment. Izzet is probably better, netting you both Flash and an echoing effect, but note that it does not hit players so cannot use curiosity effects. I feel like Izzet is fine if you have a heavy deathtouch theme, but I don't know if you'd want to run them after maxing out on Sparkmages.

4. Combo Pingers

Gelectrode
Cinder Pyromancer
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind

Gelectrode and Pyromancer get along great in a "machine-gun" style deck that works off of cheap instants to keep getting the untap effect. Lava Dart is probably the prime example. Niv-Mizzet, of course, wins the game with a curiosity effect.

5. Other Interesting Dudes

Fallen Ferromancer - Expensive, but his infect is superior to regular ping.
Jaya Ballard - Nice effect against Merfolk or Delver if you can stick her.
Vithian Stinger - At least he comes back once for a 1R ping out of the yard. Still probably too slow.

6. Support Cards

Nightshade Peddler
Basilisk Collar
Gorgon Flail
Quietus Spike

Curiosity
Ophidan Eye
Keen Sense

There's actually very little choice here. You have the cards that give you deathtouch and you have the cards that give you curiosity effects. Which you run and in what proportions depend on what your ping deck is trying to do. Combo decks want lots of curiosity and a splash of deathtouch. R/G builds probably want more deathtouch, and Spike for a quick kill once the board is clear.

CONCLUSIONS

I think you can go in three general directions with a ping deck. You can go U/R, RUG, or G/R.

U/R - You're probably going for more of the counterburn / combo style. You can't use the guildmages, so some early removal like Bolt and Lava Dart cover your bases on turn 1. Probably want to max out your 2-drop pingers in color, and then use four to eight combo creatures to ensure a win later. Four to eight curiosity is probably a good idea, some countermagic, and maybe a set of Collars. A singleton Niv Mizzet helps finish in style.

RUG - I think this is a balanced deck that ends up looking and playing alot like recent Standard builds, but with more curiosity, better countermagic, and perhaps a Niv Mizzet kill. I wouldn't run the other combo pingers here, though.

G/R - This becomes all about deathtouch and dominating aggro decks. You get Guildmage, and if you splash black, you get EIGHT guildmages. With 4-8 one drop pingers, and then 4 - 8 Peddlers / Collar / Spike, you are set to really wreck aggro decks. The two-drop and hasty three-drop pingers might also have a home, allowing you to fight removal with just plain more dudes.


Wow! Thanks for the epic reply! I'm going to have to completely retool this deck it seems. I think I'm leaning towards either the RUG build (since I'm in love with my 8 curiosity effects) or the Jund version with all the 1 drop pingers. I'm going to work this weekend on a list for both and I'd love you input on what you think. Out of curiosity (lol get it?) do you have any lists lying around of a good pinger deck I can compare mine to? It sounds like you've more than dabbled in this concept.

[MaximumC]

Wow! Thanks for the epic reply! I'm going to have to completely retool this deck it seems. I think I'm leaning towards either the RUG build (since I'm in love with my 8 curiosity effects) or the Jund version with all the 1 drop pingers. I'm going to work this weekend on a list for both and I'd love you input on what you think. Out of curiosity (lol get it?) do you have any lists lying around of a good pinger deck I can compare mine to? It sounds like you've more than dabbled in this concept.

Sort of. I have a bunch of casual decks along these lines, so I've looked into it. I have not tried to build a competitive legacy deck using them, so I just tossed out my analysis of the pingers I know about to help someone along.

Here's a recent article about the standard build using pingers+deathtouch.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/1124

If I was gonna design a legacy deck to be psuedo-competitive, I might start testing here, then see what works and what doesn't.


Pingers (12)
4 Granger Guildmage
(Cheap and good source of early ping)
3 Grim Lavamancer
(Cheap, but may run out of steam fast)
2 Fireslinger
(Just fills out your early curve)
3 Izzet Staticaster
(Best of the 3 pingers and splashes against ETW to boot)

Ping Support (14)
3 Chandra’s Spitfire
(Gets stupid huge fast with pingers. Help end the game.)
4 Basalisk Collar
(Transform your pingers into death engines)
2 Nightshade Peddler
(ditto)
4 Curiosity
(Used over Keen Sense primarily to support Force)
1 Niv Mizzet, the Firemind
(random combo win outta nowhere?)

Countermagic (11)
3 Spell Snare
(You really can’t deal with an early Goyf)
3 Spell Pierce
(More insurance against faster decks)
2 Surgical Extraction
(this is so boss against so many faster decks)
3 Force of Will
(More early game insurance)

Land (23)
4 City of Brass
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Tiaga
1 Savanna
(allows you to trigger Granger’s first ability by surprise with a fetchland)
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest

Board (15):
3 Grafdigger’s Cage
(dredge, reanimator, onion, etc)
2 Surgical Extraction
(so nice you have it twice)
4 Flusterstorm
(combo)
3 Ancient Grudge
(stoneforge, affinity, etc)
3 Negate
(super-secret tech against Wrath effects)

[Poron]

2-3x Swiftfoot Boots

strongly adviced 1 Tim + 2 Curiosity effect (Keen Sense, Instill Energy, ecc.) + Boots = 60-70% win

I'd play 12 Tims

4 Curiosity
4 Keen Sense
4 Instill Energy
4 Cerulean Wisps

[Poron]

and why no Gelectrode

[MaximumC]

2-3x Swiftfoot Boots

strongly adviced 1 Tim + 2 Curiosity effect (Keen Sense, Instill Energy, ecc.) + Boots = 60-70% win

I'd play 12 Tims

4 Curiosity
4 Keen Sense
4 Instill Energy
4 Cerulean Wisps

Drawing three cards a turn won't help if those three cards are garbage. Whether you want 4 or 8 Curiosity effects is a conversation you could have. You do NOT want Instill Energy or Cerulean Wisps, come on. These guys typically deal one damage for one mana, and occasionally draw you an additional card if you happen to have assembled a Tim+Curiosity combo. Not worth it.

Wisps has some utility in combo builds with Gelectrode. You tap Gel to ping, then you cast Wisps targeting Gel, Gel's ability resolves and he pings again, Wisps resolves and Gel pings a third time. Still, all you've done is turn Wisps into a blue Shock, doesn't help how Wisps does nothing on its own, and it doesn't interact at all with Cinder Pyromancer, so I've always preferred Lava Dart and similar cheap red burn effects.

Here's a potential U/R/g combo build along those lines:


Critters (17)
4 Niv-Magus Elemental
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Gelectrode
2 Niv Mizzet, the Firemind

Why this makeup? Well, this lets you play a few different angles. A one-drop Niv-Magus gets all kinds of awkward for your opponent, and will probably eat removal. If it doesn't, you can do silly things like turn Chrome Mox, Gitaxian Probe, Grapeshot, eat the three Grapeshots, swing with a 7/7.

Your other early game plan is to resolve a Grim Lavamancer and hit him with curiosity, which lets you start drawin cards and taking names on turn 2 or 3.

Mid game, you use Lavamancer and Gelectrode to control the board, and Snapcaster + Curiosity as card advantage.

Late game, you try to win using machine-gunning Gelectrodes or Niv-Magus kill.

Incidentally, Guttersnipe might just be plain better that Cinder Pyromancer in all relevant ways. It doesn't tap to ping, but it accomplishes the same thing and even triggers curiosity. I think the creatures I chose above are better than Guttersnipe, but I could be wrong there.

Draw Engine (4)
4 Curiosity

You could splash green for Keen Sense if you want more of this effect, but I think four is a fine number. You don't want to draw a ton of these guys rather than business.

Spells (18)
4 Lava Dart
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Force of Will
2 Grapeshot

You need lots of spells in this kind of deck, and even 18 might not be enough. Grapeshot and Flusterstorm are silly with Niv-Magus and fine without em.

Accell (3)
3 Chrome Mox

Since the deck really desperately wants to get to 3 mana in a hurry, and wants to play a low land count, I think you want three Chromes.

Lands (18)

Sideboard (15)
4 Shattering Spree
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Force of Will
2 Negate
3 Firespout


and why no Gelectrode

Because he goes in a different kind of deck, i.e., the one in this post. He doesn't live in a RUG list that isn't focused on tons of instants because he has no synergy with that kind of deck.

[KazinMtg]

So I threw together a couple lists this past weekend, what do you think?




RUG Tim

Tim's (14)
4 Granger Guildmage
4 Fireslinger
4 razorfin Hunter
2 Izzet Staticaster

Tim Support (14)
4 curiosity
4 Keen Sense
2 instill energy
3 Basilisk Collar

Goodstuff (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Birds of Paradise

Land (21)
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
2 Taiga
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain




Jund Tim

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Granger Guildmage
4 Shadow Guildmage
4 Fireslinger
2 Cunning Sparkmage
4 Nightshade Peddler
4 Keen Sense
2 Instill Energy
2 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Basilisk Collar

2 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Taiga
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 verdant catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills

[MaximumC]

So I threw together a couple lists this past weekend, what do you think?




RUG Tim

Tim's (14)
4 Granger Guildmage
4 Fireslinger
4 razorfin Hunter
2 Izzet Staticaster

Tim Support (14)
4 curiosity
4 Keen Sense
2 instill energy
3 Basilisk Collar

Goodstuff (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Birds of Paradise

Land (21)
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
2 Taiga
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain




Jund Tim

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Granger Guildmage
4 Shadow Guildmage
4 Fireslinger
2 Cunning Sparkmage
4 Nightshade Peddler
4 Keen Sense
2 Instill Energy
2 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Basilisk Collar

2 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Taiga
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 verdant catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills



If I had to comment, I'd have concerns with how these decks only route to winning or controlling is pinging for 1 with dudes. That gives you potentially a solid early game, and superior removal and card advantage if all goes well, but then you are a sucker for your opponent's late game bombs. You need to commit heavily to the board to win, so you're dead to stuff like Wrath of God. Even Thrun, the Last Troll would give you fits. Beyond that, these lists don't appreciate the need to address specific threats from Legacy, like re-animator, show and tell, charbeclcher, ANT, Stax, etc, etc. They are focused entirely on winning the aggro match up.

Basically, you need a more diverse answer suite and more diversity in avenues to success that synergize with pingers.

That's why, when I was putting these guys together in the last few deck list ideas, I made sure that the pingers, while the core functionality of the deck, are not the entirety of the deck. The RUG list tries to finish with Spitfire or Niv, the UG list can combo out or attack with a huge Elemental.

I was playesting the casual R/G deck I have like this last night, and this was exactly my problem even against other casual decks; I was good to go if I got on top of opponents trying to win with dumb beaters, but could only seal the deal against decks with bombs using a quick spitfire or spike.

Here's the casual list I have:

Ping Core (12)
4 Granger Guildmage
4 Fire Slinger
4 Cunning Sparkmage

Ping Support (13)
4 Nightshade Peddler
3 Quietus Spike
3 Keen Sense
3 Snake Umbra (helps with the two-for-ones, and this is casual)

Finishers (6)
4 Chandra's Spitfire
2 Jaya Ballard

Removal (6)
2 Lava Dart
4 Lightning Bolt

Land (23)
4 Terramorphic Expanse (I said this was casual!)
4 Mountain Valley
8 Forest
7 Mountain

Even this casual list, missing all of the metagame answers you might want, demonstrates the principals I was talking about. It takes a long time to ping someone to death. Far better to clear the board and then resolve Spitfire, who almost always hits for lethal with a few pingers, go Incinerate-Inferno with Jaya, which also gets the job done, or use Spike to get them down into ping range.

If I had to power up this R/G list for an actual legacy event I'd start with:

Ping Core (10)
4 Granger Guildmage
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Cunning Sparkmage

Moon Disruption (6)
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Blood Moon

Ping Support (10)
3 Nightshade Peddler
3 Basalisk Collar
4 Keen Sense

Finishers (5)
4 Chandra's Spitfire
1 Jaya Ballard

Removal (6)
4 Lightning Bolt
8 Flex slots for board, including
(Red Elemental Bast, Ancient Grudge, Pyrostatic Pillar, etc)

Land (23)
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tiaga
2 Mountains
3 Forest
1 Savanna
1 Plateau

Basically this keeps a core of at least enough pingers to let you reliably have one or two in the early game, but includes the Moon package and 8 free slots for metagame hate to make sure you stay alive long enough for those cards to do their business.

[KazinMtg]

I love the spitfire tech, seems perfect! I'm going to test that out tonight.

[-Spooky-]

For reference, this is my casual list.

Creatures [21]
3 Cunning Sparkmage
2 Deep-Slumber Titan
4 Fireslinger
4 Gelectrode
4 Goblin Fireslinger
4 Razorfin Hunter

Spells [19]
3 Curiosity
4 Gorgon Flail
2 Izzet Charm
3 Pemmin's Aura
4 Ponder
3 Sigil of Sleep

Lands [20]
4 Evolving Wilds
7 Island
4 Izzet Guildgate
5 Mountain

If I were to try and make it legacy playable, maybe something like this...

Creatures [21]
2 Izzet Staticaster
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Deep-Slumber Titan
4 Fireslinger
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Fireslinger
4 Razorfin Hunter

Spells [19]
2 Curiosity
4 Basilisk Collar
4 Force of Will
3 Pemmin's Aura
4 Brainstorm
2 Sigil of Sleep

Lands [20]
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa
5 Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Mountain

[Koby]

This thread needs to...
re-http://magiccards.info/scans/en/wl/87.jpg

[MaximumC]

This thread needs to...
re-http://magiccards.info/scans/en/wl/87.jpg

Stop playing with bad cards!

Just because we're working on a janky deck doesn't mean we tune it to increase the jank potential!

Look, Vitalize, Instill Energy, Wisps... these cards untap your creatures. (Or make them blue.) When are they good? Are they good when you have no pingers in play? Hells no!

Are they good when you have a singleton pinger? Well, not really. It becomes a one-shot Lava Dart. If it's a Grim Lavamancer, it's a Shock that more rapidly depletes your yard.

Are they good when your pinger has a deathtouch or curisoity effect? It's a good effect then, but now we're talking a three-card combo that your opponent has not disrupted.

Are they good when you have four or five pingers? Sure, but arn't you winning anyway at that point?



1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Deep-Slumber Titan


See, now, this guy gets it. These are actually interesting duders. Anytime someone says "Deep-Slumber Titan," I autoassociate with "Cinder Giant" and that one green enchantment that makes everything become Fungasuars, Vigor, and Fire Whip, because it's hilarious to go infinite with Deep-Slumber Titan (tap whip to deal 1 damage to itself, put a +1/+1 on it, untap it, repeat).

[Koby]

I'm a bit skeptical to the approach of this deck --
Why would you play with overcosted 1/1s that tap to deal damage unless to combo with them and win very very quickly?

To me, the whole premise of the deck is flawed for competitive play. It likely belongs in the Casual subforum instead.


This concept was an old favorite casual deck ... and it beats up on other casual decks ... see if it could compete against anything...


Are there any interactions that are inherently powerful?
Are those effects guaranteed to win the game in short order (span of <2 turns)?
Are those effects consistent enough across a variety of matchups or between goldfish games?

A pinger deck is novel, but unlikely to be competitive. Gelectrode has the most promise of doing something big.

[-Spooky-]

I'm a bit skeptical to the approach of this deck --
Why would you play with overcosted 1/1s that tap to deal damage unless to combo with them and win very very quickly?

To me, the whole premise of the deck is flawed for competitive play. It likely belongs in the Casual subforum instead.



Are there any interactions that are inherently powerful?
Are those effects guaranteed to win the game in short order (span of <2 turns)?
Are those effects consistent enough across a variety of matchups or between goldfish games?

A pinger deck is novel, but unlikely to be competitive. Gelectrode has the most promise of doing something big.

stoneforge decks don't win on turn 2. This doesn't have to be a combo deck to be competitive. If anything I would consider this to be a control archetype.

[MaximumC]

I'm a bit skeptical to the approach of this deck --
Why would you play with overcosted 1/1s that tap to deal damage unless to combo with them and win very very quickly?

To me, the whole premise of the deck is flawed for competitive play. It likely belongs in the Casual subforum instead.


Maybe. I think someone started this thread because they wanted to play a fun deck, and the challenge presented is to make a deck based around pingers at least weakly competitive. I'm not convinced that's impossible.

I'll bite your questions:



Are there any interactions that are inherently powerful?


The whole deck concept is based around pingers and Deathtouch / Curiosity effects. These are very powerful interactions, but it basically means the deck operates on a bunch of two-card combos, and is asking to be two-for-oned. Some of that is mitigated by the fact that you can run so many redundant copies of the same effect. It's also nice that, for Deathtouch at least, you can use equipment or Peddler rather than enchantments.

The Deathtouch effect, once operational, should be backbreaking against non-hexproof aggro decks. If MOM drops before you can ping her, that's not even a big problem; you should be able to field two pingers and finish her off.

The Curiosity effect is nice because it allows you to restock very quickly while doing what you want to do anyway.



Are those effects guaranteed to win the game in short order (span of <2 turns)?


It depends on what you mean by "win." I think the goal here is to lock down the opponent by keeping the board clear of creatures and then grind them out with card advantage. Sort of like how Dragon / Werewolf Stompy "wins" turn 1 by resolving Trinishpere, then plays mop up the rest of the game.



Are those effects consistent enough across a variety of matchups or between goldfish games?


Currently, no, and that's the challenge. All these builds so far just roll over to non-aggro decks of all stripes. If there were enchantments that gave pingers a discard, silence, or countermagic effect, then I think this deck would have a very good vehicle to combat them. As it is, we have to make do with other cards, like countermagic.



A pinger deck is novel, but unlikely to be competitive. Gelectrode has the most promise of doing something big.
[/QUOTE]

Gelectrode can do impressive things. If he's got a Curiosity on him them casting Cerulean Wisps on him ends up doing 3 damage and drawing 4 cards for U. Of course, to get there you had to assemble a 3 card combo, and you risk getting 3-for-oned when you go for it. He's certainly one of the top dogs in a UR combo-type shell, but I'm not convinced that's the right way to go with a deck like this. Maybe it is.


stoneforge decks don't win on turn 2. This doesn't have to be a combo deck to be competitive. If anything I would consider this to be a control archetype.

You do the Budget Legacy series, right? You strike me as the kind of person who has 40 casual decks laying around, like myself. We should get together sometime.

[MaximumC]

Upon further consideration, here's another spicy meatball to chew on: Aphetto Alchemist + Illusionists Bracers, or "the Tap Dance."

Here's how this deck is supposed to operate. Turn 1, you hope your opponent does not play a combo deck; if so, you autolose. Assuming you get past that, you lay a Lavamancer t1 to keep the enemy's one-drop in check. Hopefully, you then kill the one drop on t2, and resolve a second pinger, Collar, or Alchemist. Turn 3, you want to be killing creatures if you must, or dropping curiosity and starting to dig if not. Then, t4 or 5 you drop Illusionist's Bracers, which, when paired with Alchemist, lets you untap artifacts and lands as many times as you like. With pingers, that's game over.

The cool thing about this combo with pingers is that both pieces help your pingers in the mean time. All of you people who were talking about Instill Energy and Vitalize? This is what you want to be looking at if you must have untap effects.

Pingers (11)
======
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Razorfin Hunter
4 Cunning Sparkmage
(The lineup here cannot feature Granger Guildmage or Izzet Staticaster, even though they're better, because neither of them can finish the game with an active combo. So it's a bunch of second-bests.)

Ping Support (8)
======
4 Basilisk Collar
4 Curiosity
(No surprises here)

Tappity-tappity (8)
======
4 Illusionist’s Bracers
4 Aphetto Alchemist
(C-c-c-c-c-combo! Wake Thrasher usually loves Alchemist too. Can't find room here, and he doesnt' fit what we're trying to do anyway)

Other (10)
======
4 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
(Some way to interact on the stack so that we have a prayer of keeping our duders alive long enough to win)

Mana (22)
======
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain
3 Seat of the Synod
3 Great Furnace
(Artifact lands = infinite mana with combo!)

[KazinMtg]

Upon further consideration, here's another spicy meatball to chew on: Aphetto Alchemist + Illusionists Bracers, or "the Tap Dance."

Here's how this deck is supposed to operate. Turn 1, you hope your opponent does not play a combo deck; if so, you autolose. Assuming you get past that, you lay a Lavamancer t1 to keep the enemy's one-drop in check. Hopefully, you then kill the one drop on t2, and resolve a second pinger, Collar, or Alchemist. Turn 3, you want to be killing creatures if you must, or dropping curiosity and starting to dig if not. Then, t4 or 5 you drop Illusionist's Bracers, which, when paired with Alchemist, lets you untap artifacts and lands as many times as you like. With pingers, that's game over.

The cool thing about this combo with pingers is that both pieces help your pingers in the mean time. All of you people who were talking about Instill Energy and Vitalize? This is what you want to be looking at if you must have untap effects.

Pingers (11)
======
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Razorfin Hunter
4 Cunning Sparkmage
(The lineup here cannot feature Granger Guildmage or Izzet Staticaster, even though they're better, because neither of them can finish the game with an active combo. So it's a bunch of second-bests.)

Ping Support (8)
======
4 Basilisk Collar
4 Curiosity
(No surprises here)

Tappity-tappity (8)
======
4 Illusionist’s Bracers
4 Aphetto Alchemist
(C-c-c-c-c-combo! Wake Thrasher usually loves Alchemist too. Can't find room here, and he doesnt' fit what we're trying to do anyway)

Other (10)
======
4 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
(Some way to interact on the stack so that we have a prayer of keeping our duders alive long enough to win)

Mana (22)
======
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain
3 Seat of the Synod
3 Great Furnace
(Artifact lands = infinite mana with combo!)

Absolutely brilliant! Now I feel like we're getting somewhere. Plus I get to port my alchemists from my original casual version which will make me happy. This iteration seems the best so far since it can just "go off". Guess I'll have to grab some illusionist bracers :smile:

The only card I'm not sure on would be the lavamancer. I understand how ideally he would help maintain board position early, but with basically no burn or cantrips (and only 7 fetch lands) it will be hard to keep the yard full early on to utilize him. Also he wouldn't be able to combo out for the win with the bracers and alchemist.

[MaximumC]

Absolutely brilliant! Now I feel like we're getting somewhere. Plus I get to port my alchemists from my original casual version which will make me happy. This iteration seems the best so far since it can just "go off". Guess I'll have to grab some illusionist bracers :smile:

The only card I'm not sure on would be the lavamancer. I understand how ideally he would help maintain board position early, but with basically no burn or cantrips (and only 7 fetch lands) it will be hard to keep the yard full early on to utilize him. Also he wouldn't be able to combo out for the win with the bracers and alchemist.

You're right, Lavamancer doesn't interact with the combo, but he's so absurdly important in the early game that I think he's worth a slot. You've got a point about needing fuel for him, however. Perhaps that suggests this deck wants to use black discard instead of blue counterspells to deal with the opponent's threats. That way, your yard gets fuel.

I wonder, actually, if this works better in a G/R/b shell. You can combo out with Seeker of Skybreak instead of Aphetto Alchemist. Maybe something like this?

Pingers (11)
======
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Vulshock Sorcerer
4 Cunning Sparkmage

The lineup for pingers that work in a Jund shell, and cooperate with the combo, is pretty limited. I think you still want Lavamancer because you need a 1 drop to control the board. Lots of the red / black / green pingers also damage you, and so don't work at all if you're at a lower life total than your opponent. So, I opted here for a full compliment of Sparkmages, and then a split between Vulsock and Sharpshooter. Vulshock is basically another Sparkmage, but the casting cost is harder. Sharpshooter has no haste, which is really bad, but it's easier to cast, potentially controls the board with deathtouch, and still wins with the combo.

Ping Support (6)
======
3 Basilisk Collar
3 Keen Sense

I reduced the number of these guys because you won't see them as early. You don't have many 1 and 2 drop pingers, so you'll be digging deeper before you realistically can resolve them.

Tappity-tappity (8)
======
4 Illusionist’s Bracers
4 Seeker of Skybreak

Other (11)
======
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Magus of the Moon

Accell (4)
======
4 Birds of Paradise

Deathrite doesn't go infinite with combo.

Mana (20)
======
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Tiaga
3 Forest
3 Mountain

[MaximumC]

This deck got a new toy: Zhur-Taa Druid. He combos with Illusionist's Bracers + Seeker of Skybreak/Aphetto Alchemist. He works very well with Curiosity / Keen Sense. Doesn't do anything with Deathtouch. He accelerates you from two to four mana, but that's not really a place that a Tim deck is eager to get to. I don't know that he makes this work where it didn't before, but he's certainly something new to think about. Another piece of the puzzle, if you will.

There's also a combo with Freed from Real / Pemmin's Aura + a way to make Druid tap for blue or filter green into blue at 1:1, but that seems more fragile and only for Modern.

[Oiolosse]

Charisma is hilarious.

[FTW]

Charisma is hilarious.

Charisma works, but Goblin Sharpshooter/Izzet Staticaster + Basilisk Collar/Nightshade Peddlar cleans up aggro decks pretty quickly. If you want to ping dudes, that's the way to go.

If you want to combo out on the opponent with Curiosity, Niv-Mizzet+Curiosity ends the game with 2 cards. It's less flimsy than using a 3-4 card combo. You could just use the rest of the deck to counter stuff, kill stuff and ramp to Niv-Mizzet. Grim Lavamancer and Razorfin Hunter could help control the early board and dig (with Curiosity) into Niv Mizzet. Mizzet pitches to Force of Will or Chrome Mox in a bind.

[zulander]

Only 11 pingers? This is bad, you need at least 16.

[Darkenslight]

4 Aphetto Alchemist
4 Zhur-taa Druid
4 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Goblin Fireslinger
4 Cinder Pyromancer
4 Nightshade Peddler

4 Illusionist's Bracers
4 Basilisk Collar

4 Manamorphose
4 Keen Sense

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Mountain
2 Forest
1 Island

Note, that the curve starts at one.

Now for some of the combos:

Aphetto Alchemist + Illusionist's Bracers - Goes infinite as a two-card combo, add any third creature to deal infinite damage.

Any pinger + Nightshade Peddler/Basilisk Collar - BOOM! HEADSHOT! In the case of the Collar, it even adds up to a life a turn.

Keen Sense + any pinger - Turns any of your pingers into a Quicksilver dagger.

With the considerable shift away from blue and the complete cutting of black (which is probably risky, to be honest).

One of the things I'm considering is removing the Peddlers for Mizzium Mortars for the synergy with Cinder Pyromancer.

[mistercakes]

4 Aphetto Alchemist
4 Zhur-taa Druid
4 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Goblin Fireslinger
4 Cinder Pyromancer
4 Nightshade Peddler

4 Illusionist's Bracers
4 Basilisk Collar

4 Manamorphose
4 Keen Sense

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Mountain
2 Forest
1 Island

Note, that the curve starts at one.

Now for some of the combos:

Aphetto Alchemist + Illusionist's Bracers - Goes infinite as a two-card combo, add any third creature to deal infinite damage.

Any pinger + Nightshade Peddler/Basilisk Collar - BOOM! HEADSHOT! In the case of the Collar, it even adds up to a life a turn.

Keen Sense + any pinger - Turns any of your pingers into a Quicksilver dagger.

With the considerable shift away from blue and the complete cutting of black (which is probably risky, to be honest).

One of the things I'm considering is removing the Peddlers for Mizzium Mortars for the synergy with Cinder Pyromancer.


one of the first decks i built when i was younger had a bunch of pingers with curiosity and mind over matter