Brainstorm.

[KobeBryan]

do you consider this illegal?

This guy casts a spell, in response, i cast brainstorm. I find FOW.

I use the FOW and pitch a card to counter the spell. Then i put two cards back to the library.

[phazonmutant]

Did you in any way ask if the Force resolved or look for a response before putting the cards back?
If so, that's definitely fishing for information, not Out Of Order Sequencing. Fishing like that could be grounds for DQ under the artist formerly known as Cheating - Fraud or possibly Cheating - Manipulation of Game Materials (both now called something else...) if an investigation revealed intent.

Alternatively, if you're like, "hey, I found Force, but let me finish putting 2 cards back", that's obviously fine, if perhaps a little loose. You can always tell your opponent what you drew. I find this line less likely though because you went through the motions of casting Force by pitching a card.

[KobeBryan]

Did you in any way ask if the Force resolved or look for a response before putting the cards back?
If so, that's definitely fishing for information, not Out Of Order Sequencing. Fishing like that could be grounds for DQ under the artist formerly known as Cheating - Fraud or possibly Cheating - Manipulation of Game Materials (both now called something else...) if an investigation revealed intent.

Alternatively, if you're like, "hey, I found Force, but let me finish putting 2 cards back", that's obviously fine, if perhaps a little loose. You can always tell your opponent what you drew. I find this line less likely though because you went through the motions of casting Force by pitching a card.

No. i just played force and pitched a card. then immediately, without him doing anything i started putting cards back.

[Lemnear]

Having 2 additional cards in your hand the Moment you Play FoW isn't just fishing for information, It may influences possible Responses (or the lack of those) and is an intended misinformation about the gamestate.

A Judge witnessing this will and should DQ you in this case for a) an illegal game Action b) fishing for Information within a reversible game error and c) drawing extra cards. I have seen enough players "forgetting to put back cards" or putting back ONE card with a card-fanned hand and claiming they put back 2 (best paired with drawing 4)

[Esper3k]

Having 2 additional cards in your hand the Moment you Play FoW isn't just fishing for information, It may influences possible Responses (or the lack of those) and is an intended misinformation about the gamestate.

A Judge witnessing this will and should DQ you in this case for a) an illegal game Action b) fishing for Information within a reversible game error and c) drawing extra cards. I have seen enough players "forgetting to put back cards" or putting back ONE card with a card-fanned hand and claiming they put back 2 (best paired with drawing 4)

None of those errors are DQable offenses as far as I know unless it was intentional (ie cheating).

That being said, I think it was just sloppy out of order sequencing and really you should've resolved the Brainstorm first and then cast Force of Will.

[Lemnear]

Of course it was sloppy but there is no reason to go into a Stack interaction before you resolve a spell as a whole. That's not a shortcut or the like. It's not like you accidently draw a card too much which is likely a gameloss but ignoring half of a spells effect. Every judge will lol if you try to explain this was an accident if he or your opponent caught you. The next best thing would be playing Brainstorm into brainstorm digging 6 cards deep.

[Esper3k]

Of course it was sloppy but there is no reason to go into a Stack interaction before you resolve a spell as a whole. That's not a shortcut or the like. It's not like you accidently draw a card too much which is likely a gameloss but ignoring half of a spells effect. Every judge will lol if you try to explain this was an accident if he or your opponent caught you. The next best thing would be playing Brainstorm into brainstorm digging 6 cards deep.

It looks like an error that's something fairly easily fixable to me. From what I gather, it was:

Opponent casts something.
OP casts Brainstorm, draws 3 cards.
OP casts FoW, pitching a card.
OP immediately finishes resolving Brainstorm, putting 2 cards back.

To me, that looks like a poor attempt at out of order sequencing, but could just be a game rule violation. It didn't sound like the OP was attempting to cheat (ie, wait for a response from the opponent after his FoW and then decide what 2 cards he wants to put back).

[Lemnear]

It looks like an error that's something fairly easily fixable to me. From what I gather, it was:

Opponent casts something.
OP casts Brainstorm, draws 3 cards.
OP casts FoW, pitching a card.
OP immediately finishes resolving Brainstorm, putting 2 cards back.

To me, that looks like a poor attempt at out of order sequencing, but could just be a game rule violation. It didn't sound like the OP was attempting to cheat (ie, wait for a response from the opponent after his FoW and then decide what 2 cards he wants to put back).

I did get that. For a Judge the gap between Point 2 and 3 in your sequence can remain a problem. With people taking up to half a minute for the decision, which cards to put back the word "immediately" is in question. Putting FoW on the stack, taking time to put the cards back while monitoring Responses and actions of your opponent, altering your returned cards due to that, is an illegal advantage. I don't have the impression this was the Case here but a Judge has to take serious action in such a questionable situation

[Esper3k]

I did get that. For a Judge the gap between Point 2 and 3 in your sequence can remain a problem. With people taking up to half a minute for the decision, which cards to put back the word "immediately" is in question. Putting FoW on the stack, taking time to put the cards back while monitoring Responses and actions of your opponent, altering your returned cards due to that, is an illegal advantage. I don't have the impression this was the Case here but a Judge has to take serious action in such a questionable situation

No I agree - if the guy is doing it intentionally to get an advantage then that's cheating and a DQ.

If not, I believe it's just a GRV (and a warning) or just out of order sequencing.

[Star|Scream]

I think the OP is actually asking a rules question and not a penalization question.

Kobe: You have to place two cards on top of your library before you can respond with your force of will. However, once you place the two cards back you are free to counter the initial spell.


If you were already aware of this, then all the previous answers apply.

[infant_no_1]

I did get that. For a Judge the gap between Point 2 and 3 in your sequence can remain a problem. With people taking up to half a minute for the decision, which cards to put back the word "immediately" is in question. Putting FoW on the stack, taking time to put the cards back while monitoring Responses and actions of your opponent, altering your returned cards due to that, is an illegal advantage. I don't have the impression this was the Case here but a Judge has to take serious action in such a questionable situation

Level 2 judge here.
As mentioned by others it is very sloppy Out of Ordering Sequence. Technically illegal, but allowable by the rules. A good talking to would follow my visit to the table.

NOW if the player was fishing for info, then they just shorted their day dramatically & now have time for food.

[alderon666]

This situation has to be analysed, are you really going to DQ a guy who has lethal on the table and is countering the Belcher the opponent just played, while the opponent has no cards in hand and no permanents in play? Really?

I ain't saying you should do this all the time, but depending on the situation it could just be an overexcited player and not someone trying to fish for info.

[Tammit67]

This situation has to be analysed, are you really going to DQ a guy who has lethal on the table and is countering the Belcher the opponent just played, while the opponent has no cards in hand and no permanents in play? Really?

I ain't saying you should do this all the time, but depending on the situation it could just be an overexcited player and not someone trying to fish for info.

That's precisely why Out of order sequencing exists. You can't fish for info when there is no info to be gained.

Obviously questions need to be asked as to why something happened the way it did. But if a player is fishing for information, I don't care how 'ahead' they are, they are cheating.

[Arsenal]

Why would you not just finishing resolving Brainstorm before casting Force of Will? That doesn't even make any sense to me. There's no shortcut there to be had.

[Esper3k]

Why would you not just finishing resolving Brainstorm before casting Force of Will? That doesn't even make any sense to me. There's no shortcut there to be had.

Say you were Brainstorming looking for a blue card (no matter that you had a Brainstorm to pitch) and found just one blue card.

You throw down your Force & the blue card and then put 2 cards back.

I'm not advocating doing this, but I can see it happening occasionally, especially if someone is super excited about having found a blue card to pitch and not die to combo.

[Lemnear]

@alderon

It's Not about having a random Blue Card + Brainstorm as only cards in your hand and the opponent Not having cards in Hand and his only spell on the Stack while you respond with the Brainstorm. In this scenario a Judge can be grateful and judge this as sloppy play or Out-of-order-sequencing and no One should complain.

The case weights completely different if you and your opponent have mana/cards remaining in hand as I explained before