[Deck] Imperial Painter

[Kap'n Cook]

I probably should add in a rules section in the how to play section on the first page below drew's summary since the layers stuff comes up every now and then.

Lambert:

I've put burn in my board with 2 bridges main because its so good against a ton of decks and burn can suck sometimes.

My opening section has general gameplay tips, but I can refine it to include more generic board strategy.

[jandax]

Hmmph. Yeah a rules section would be good.

At GP Ghent I had more than one run in with Humility in the grinders and day one and more than one judge say that Magus/Painter gets nerf'd.

[lambert101]

Please do and thank you.

[Kap'n Cook]

Please do and thank you.

Alright added in a rules section. I think I covered nearly all the things you'll normally encounter.

As far as sideboarding, in the matchups part I added in some general tips. But these are all based on my personal experience so others may disagree. Feel free to debate my choices.

[GundamGuy]

Alright added in a rules section. I think I covered nearly all the things you'll normally encounter.

As far as sideboarding, in the matchups part I added in some general tips. But these are all based on my personal experience so others may disagree. Feel free to debate my choices.

Thank you!


Hmmph. Yeah a rules section would be good.

At GP Ghent I had more than one run in with Humility in the grinders and day one and more than one judge say that Magus/Painter gets nerf'd.

If this happens what do you do? Do you appeal to the head judge?

[Ish]

If this happens what do you do? Do you appeal to the head judge?

Thats what I would do. I don't see any other option. Glad this ruling came up in discussion! I have never dealt with this before.


Also:
Played a local GPT this weekend. Did OK, but ran into UW Rip/Helm Miracles in the top 8. Even after reading the primer, that is a tough matchup. So many counter spells and creature removal options for them. I read through the primer, but don't see any true advantages we can gain outta the side. Pithing needle I guess being an option, but they are already probably bringing in all their artifact removal. I'm sure it didn't help that I've never played the matchup before.

Overall about my deck.
Returned back to Mono Red build. Went back to playing 3 Magma jets which were great for killing little guys and fixing draws. I like the card again right now.

[GoblinZ]

Thats what I would do. I don't see any other option. Glad this ruling came up in discussion! I have never dealt with this before.


Also:
Played a local GPT this weekend. Did OK, but ran into UW Rip/Helm Miracles in the top 8. Even after reading the primer, that is a tough matchup. So many counter spells and creature removal options for them. I read through the primer, but don't see any true advantages we can gain outta the side. Pithing needle I guess being an option, but they are already probably bringing in all their artifact removal. I'm sure it didn't help that I've never played the matchup before.

Overall about my deck.
Returned back to Mono Red build. Went back to playing 3 Magma jets which were great for killing little guys and fixing draws. I like the card again right now.

I guess koth is a good option against mircacle, they have few ways to deal with it. besides, I think you can take beatdown strategy in some situations. I beat a uw miracle during last tournament. Game one I had both painter and stone on the board. And I know he had removal in his hand, so I just attacked him every turn. it was very annoying, and I finally finished that game with a lightning bolt.

[Ish]

I guess koth is a good option against mircacle, they have few ways to deal with it. besides, I think you can take beatdown strategy in some situations. I beat a uw miracle during last tournament. Game one I had both painter and stone on the board. And I know he had removal in his hand, so I just attacked him every turn. it was very annoying, and I finally finished that game with a lightning bolt.

Nice!

ah yeah, koth! Took him outta my board since I hadn't run into a true control match in some time. Might be time to bring him back!

[jandax]

Regarding the Humility ruling;

Yes, upon retrospect I'd appeal to the head judge. Just so happen to know one of the two red shirt judges so he would have been able to clarify the situation. And again, it was a GP side event and the judge came forth with a quick answer so we just believed him. I'm a retard when it comes to layers rulings, it's all Chinese to me.

In a big event, appeal to the head judge even if the outcome doesn't decide much of your standing. You'll simply be a better player for it, but do it in a fair and honest manner. Being a rules lawyer is semi being a dick.

[Ish]

Has anyone tried the more combo-centric UR version of Painter? If people start responding to play around blood moon would this be a reasonable direction for painter? Wouldn't be an imperial build I assume, but similar end game. It does lose the obvious lock pieces.

[Kap'n Cook]

Has anyone tried the more combo-centric UR version of Painter? If people start responding to play around blood moon would this be a reasonable direction for painter? Wouldn't be an imperial build I assume, but similar end game. It does lose the obvious lock pieces.

Two completely different styles. Much faster and better tutoring for less effect on the board state. Play whichever suits your style more. I know they are both 'painter' but I really don't think they lie on the same plane as far as progression goes.

If you are worried about blood moon being played around and still want the recruiters vs transmute artifact/intuition/force, play a minimal moon build like mine.

[jandax]

Or you just go Big Red Sneak and Breach. Just kill them instead.

[Ish]

Or you just go Big Red Sneak and Breach. Just kill them instead.

Haha I tested that deck. Crazy fun!

[lambert101]

Played in a GPT this weekend. Lost in the semis to green death and taxes. Thinking about updating my list to the following.

9 mountains
4 scalding tarn
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors

3 top
4 simian spirt guide
4 imperial recruiter
4 painter's servant
4 grindstone
4 blood moon
2 magus of the moon
4 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
4 lighting bolt
1 phyrexian revoker
1 spellskitte
1 jaya
1 goblin welder

Board:
4 ensnaring bridge
4 thorn of amethist
2 Red elemental blast
2 Rachet Bomb
3 Pyroclasm

had trouble with aggro decks till had combo

boarding plans:

vs deathrite decks and mav/dnt
- 6 blasts
- 1 magus
+ 4 Ensnaring Bridge
+ 3 Pyroclasm

vs control miracles:
- 4 bolts
- 4 Blood Moon
+ 4 thorns
+ 2 Reb
+ 2 rache bombs

vs stoneblade
- 4 bolt
- 1 revoker
- 1 magus of moon
+ 4 thorn
+ 2 Reb

vs bug:(not sure about this)
- 2 reb
- 2 pyroblast
+ 4 bridge

vs combo (storm - omni)
- 4 bolts
- 1 spellskitte
- 1 jaya
+ 4 thorns
+ 2 REB

vs combo (sneak attack and reanimator)
- 4 bolt
- 1 spellskitte
- 1 jaya
- 1 welder
- 3 grindstone
+ 4 ensaring bridge
+ 4 thorn
+ 2 REB

vs tempo (rug)
- 4 bolt
- 1 revoker
+ 4 Bridge
+ 1 Reb

not sure about grixs delver or uwr delver

Please comment on list and boarding strategies. Sorry for grammar, sent on cell.

[GundamGuy]

Played in a GPT this weekend. Lost in the semis to green death and taxes. Thinking about updating my list to the following.

9 mountains
4 scalding tarn
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors

3 top
4 simian spirt guide
4 imperial recruiter
4 painter's servant
4 grindstone
4 blood moon
2 magus of the moon
4 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
4 lighting bolt
1 phyrexian revoker
1 spellskitte
1 jaya
1 goblin welder

Board:
4 ensnaring bridge
4 thorn of amethist
2 Red elemental blast
2 Rachet Bomb
3 Pyroclasm

had trouble with aggro decks till had combo



It seems like you are overloading on answers to Aggro. I'm a little concerned that you are swinging too far in the opposite direction based on last weeks performance, which might have you weak on other fronts this week. Have you considered Maytr, of Ashes, and Cutting Ratchet Bomb since it's only boarded in vs Miracles. I don't know if that is what I want to do but just a thought.

[TheArchitect]

9 mountains
4 scalding tarn
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors

3 top
4 simian spirt guide
4 imperial recruiter
4 painter's servant
4 grindstone
4 blood moon
2 magus of the moon
4 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
4 lighting bolt
1 phyrexian revoker
1 spellskitte
1 jaya
1 goblin welder


Board:
4 ensnaring bridge
4 thorn of amethist
2 Red elemental blast
2 Rachet Bomb
3 Pyroclasm




I dont think you need Rachet Bombs either. But I do think you need GY hate. I would do -2 Rachet Bombs, -1 Ebridge for +1 Faire Macabre, +2 Relic of Progenitus. 3 Bridges i think should be more than enough and I dont think it is worth bringing in against a lot of the decks you posted. Here is my best plan. It could be wrong, I have little experience with the deck.

GW Mav/D&T:
-6 Blasts
+3 Bridge
+3 Clasm


Dark Mav/Punishing:
-1 goblin welder
-6 Blasts
+3 Bridge
+3 Clasm
+1 Relic

GBW has decay AND pridemage so bridges arent reliable, but moons are better because of thier mana base. Against Punishing, welder is always going to die, against deathrite, your targets will often get exiled.


Shardless BUG:
-1 Revoker
-1 goblin welder
+2 REB

Kill DRS then land bloodmoon and you win.


Blade Control:
Nothing.

All of the cards in your maindeck are better than the cards in your SB against them. Jitte is the only way they can easily beat you. Don't take out revoker. He is awesome.


TES/ANT:
-4 Bolts
-1 spellskite
+2 REB
+4 thorns

Clasm is good vs TES since they are often a goblin deck. Relic is good against ANT because 2/3 of their rituals care about the GY and they win with PiF like 50% of the time. Not sure if its worth cutting anything for them though.


Reanimator:
-4 bolt
-1 spellskitte
-1 welder
-1 jaya
-1 Blood Moon
-1 phyrexian revoker/Moon
+4 ensaring bridge
+2 REB
+2 Relic
+1 Macabe


Sneak and Show:
-4 Bolts
-4 Grindstone
-1 spellskite
+2 REB
+3 Bridge
+4 thorns

Dont take out jaya. She is the best creature in your deck in this matchup. I dont think its worth becoming a 3 card combo. Just do the prison/beatdown plan.

Omnitell:
-4 Grindstone
-1 phyrexian revoker
-1 spellskite
+2 REB
+4 throns

Watch how they win game 1. If it is via Emmy + release the ants, take out grindstone. If its with lab man, keep it in. I prefer the prison/beats plan, but you could just bring in the macabre since its just 1 emmy.

Miracles:
-4 Bolt
-2 Moon
+2 REB
+4 Thorn

Tempo RUG:
-4 Bolts
-1 Revoker
-1 Moon
+2 Blast
+3 Bridge
+2 Relic

BUG tempo:
-1 Revoker
-1 goblin welder
+2 Relic

Grixis/UWr Tempo:
-5 ????
+2 Clasm
+3 Bridge

Dredge, elves, and the rest should be pretty obvious I think.

[jandax]

"Dredge, elves and the rest should be pretty easy I think"

Does that mean just bite the pillow and take it? Unless you sideboard heavily against those match ups, they're not fun

[Kap'n Cook]

Ive made the switch to Rw. Newest list front page. Because I don't like running more than 5 moons it has helped every matchup immensely. If jandax is able to hook me up with my fbb plateaus before GP DC you'll see me swagging out there.

[jandax]

Good stuff adding the rules and interactions segment. We, as a thread, should bring up other instances to add to it in future posts.

Is firebolt really that good for you? Would you rather just drop one critter at a time instead of sweeping the board?

I tuned my list for the aggro matches, going back to basics as a MD combo deck with disruption and SB red control deck. I figure it'll help matchups without splashing like Kap'n does, not thrilled about that idea because I, unlike him, love me a Blood Moon.

I actually used lambert101's list as a start, but think that to facilitate the MD combo centric part of the deck it needed a couple more accelerants than lands. He runs 21 where I run one less City of Traitors and fetch for a Lotus Petal and Chrome Mox. I used to dislike Bolts but like them now, not only for asthetics (Beta card count up to 16 maindeck <3 beta) but they assist in knocking off critters game one's that'd usually put the deck a game behind. Looking at you Mom, Thalia, Bob, Delver, etc. Sideboard stands as a package:

4 Bridge
4 Thorn
2 Koth
4 Pyroclasm
1 Jaya

I am not sure I need 4 Pyroclasm, but in my experience every time I boarded them in in the past I wanted to see them. Given my only card filtering is 3 tops and 7 shuffle effects, I need to rely on the draw step and/or mulligan aggressively. Jaya and Koth are the shizz as the control in any given matchup, with or without Blood Moon they offer other ways to win instead of Stoning them. Last tournament I beat my combo matchups and lost to the beatdown matchups, so this time around I want to be prepared for the same. Control is way underplayed here, so I want to be prepared for what will definitely get me, not what could.

@Kap'n, gonna talk to the guy with your plateaus this week and hopefully I can pick them up at the LSG this coming saturday. As soon as I arrange it all I'll PM for details.

[lambert101]

Hey all took the list to a GPT this week. The board was awesome sauce. Here is a small recap of what I remember. The sideboard was solid and there no time I remember wanting graveyard hate or artifact destruction. The pyroclasms wiped board before sticks could be equipped.

4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Thorn of Ametyhist
2 Rachet Bomb
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroclasm

The event had 24ish people (don't remember the exacts). I came in 13 on a record of 3-2.

R1: L against grixis delver reanimator
Game 1 he leads delver into young pyromaster and I cannot find combo in time.
Game 2 turn 1 blood moon into turn 5 win
Game 3 pyroclasm did work being a 6 for 1 and then had the win but in response to the grindstone win he brainstorms and with the mill trigger on the stack he goes bolt, bolt and I go sad panda as I was at 6

Boarding plans
- 2 red blast
- 2 pyroblast
+ 3 pyroclasm
+ 2 ensaring bridge
+ 1 revoker

R2: WGRB midrange

All i remember is G1 moon wins and G2 ensnaring bridge plus moon is gg.

Boarding Plans
- 6 Blast effects
- 1 Goblin Welder (this match up had 4 stp, 4 decay, and 4 bolts)
+ 3 Pyroclasm
+ 4 Bridge


R3:
Dark Maverick (blood moon wins the round) with some well timed bolts. Only problem was he had a scryb ranger in play and I had a painter in play naming blue.

Boarding Plans:
- 6 Blast effects
- 1 Revoker
+ 3 Pyroclasm
+ 4 Bridge

R4:
Zombardment

Deck crapped on me in both games as it drew all lands and bloodghast beats are a real issue i found with this deck

Boarding Plans:
- 6 Blast effects
- 1 Welder (goblin bombardment kills this man)
+ 3 Pyroclasm
+ 4 Bridge

R5:
Elves

G1: Bolt Deathrite then Blood Moon into gg
G2: game loss for drawing too many cards off a glimpse


Boarding Plans:
- 6 Blast effects
- 1 Revoker
+ 3 Pyroclasm
+ 4 Bridge

Thoughts on my list or board. I need some card advantage as having three lands on top of deck with SDT out kinda of stinks. Some brewing ideas I thought of were having 2 Koth in main over a blast and a Mountain. Or that Legendary hammer to apply pressure in control. Some thoughts about any way to add card filtering. I saw previous post about adding white. I like the idea and was thinking about 4 e tutors just to make sure you grab your combo pieces. With that was thinking mox diamond as the acceleration for both colors. Trying to get this deck ready for GP DC so any help is appreciated.

[jandax]

You don't have that many lands, so Mox Diamond is not your accelerant of choice. If you go with the splash, Lotus petal(s) and a pair of Plateaus are what you'll need. Otherwise, sub in some Faithless Looting and Goblin Welder for your Bolts and you'll gain more on-color filtering.

[lambert101]

The only reason in my mind to splash white is for e-tutor and wear//tear. I like the mono red build to maximize blood moon. I am currently thinking about adding Koth into my list. Thoughts on this updated list.

8 Sol Lands
8 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Simian Spirt Guide
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Spellskitte
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jaya
1 Goblin Welder
4 Lighting Bolt
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Blast
2 Koth (could possibly be Chandra Pyromaster)

Board:
4 E-bridge
3 Pyroclasm
4 Thorn of Amethyist
2 Rachet Bomb
2 Red Elemental Blast

Koth's Ultimate can keep board clear on stalls or simply win. Another possible option is the new red hammer to create dudes. Only problem is the akwardness with e-bridge.

[Imperial]

So, how many of us are going with the white splash? Do you guys think it's worth it with Blood Moon being so big of a win-con for us?

[Dice_Box]

Tested the white splash, dropped it. I would say that maybe running only white mana main with the E Tutors in the side might not be a bad plan. You could trade 1 for 1 against the moons when you need to pull them out. But still, that eats up 4 of the 15 sideboard slots and I do not know how valuable that would really be.

Still it would give us speed in the games where we can not lock.

Oh, and welcome.

[Moomba]

If you are doing the white splash, I recommend running 4 lotus petal over 4 SSG. You can still run some SSGs if you'd like, just when you blood moon your white away, you'll wish the apes were petals.

[Dice_Box]

I disagree, SSG lets you "FOW" and threaten to FOW. If you need your mana on the table at all times, you lose that element of surprise. Also if you have top in play, tapping it and grabbing a Guide at instant speed can save your life.

[Moomba]

Well when you have a dead card in your hand when you have a blood moon (e. tutor or and white thing you splashed) you'll wish you did, but that's my opinion of white splash, can play however you want.

[Dice_Box]

This is why I strongly believe that Moon and Tutor should not both be in the main together.

I may test a build with Tutor in the side. Will have a shot at it next week.

[GundamGuy]

Played in a Legacy GPT for GP DC today at Squabbles in MD.

I went 4-1 and was 1st going into Top 8... Where I ran into the Mirror Match (Except he had the Koth Package) I punted game 3 after 30 odd min of hay-makers from both sides. So... =( But still good experience overall.



Some of the Details are a little fuzzy, so don't expect anything extremely detailed.

Round 1 (2-1)- Punishing Jund.

Game 1 - I'm on the play but I don't have a blood moon hand and he answers all my threats. Eventually he ginds me out with punishing fire after getting one or two blood moons out of my hand or countered.

Game 2 - Turn 1 Blood Moon = Concession

Game 3 - I get a Grindstone down turn 1, he never deals with it, and I eventually get a Painter into play that he can't answer. He seemed a little tilted after the Blood Mooning.

1-0 and out of the woods or so I thought.

Round 2 (2-0) - Red Aggro Brew... (This guy top eighted, but I don't think he made it far)

Game 1 - I was on the play, and took a lot of beats until I manged to stick a painter and get down to 2 life. Top Deck = Grindstone and I win on the spot. (Relief)

Game 2 - I side in Ensnaring Bridge and resolve one quickly and get my hand gone... Eventually he Chaos Warped the Bridge, but I had a second in Hand and then it was only a matter of time.

2-0

Round 3 (2-1) - U/W Counter Top

Game 1 - I'm on the draw, the game goes awhile, eventually he overwhelms me with Angels. =(

Game 2 - Goes long but I got there, while going a little long 14 min for game 3. I end up grinding him out after playing Ensnaring Bridge. (This card does work.)

Game 3 - He mulligan, I had a fast grind and I won in 3 turns or so...

3-0 (Really happy at this point, then I get paired down with an 3-0-1 who can't draw in...)

Round 4 (0-2) - Shardless BUG.

So happy to see it's Shardless BUG... but then, things take an turn.

Game 1 - I kept an reasonable hand but not one with blood moon, he has the counter when I try to turn 3 the Moon I naturally draw... and well it just goes down hill from there.

Game 2 - Mulliganed an Nolanader, Mulliganed an 3 blast 2 Land SSG hand, Kept a hand with Turn 1 blood Moon. He has the FoW, and a early Goyf. (Not how this is suposed to go...)

3-1 (Should be a lock for Top 8... but then...)

Round 4 (2-0) - So I can Tie Break in because I'm the highest 3-1 and there are not enough people who can jump me... but my opponent isn't so luck, as he's an 3-1-1

Game 1 - I don't know what he's playing so I keep a reasonable hand with two blasts in it... Turn's out he's playing Splinter Twin Legacy Version. I blast his combo and fetch Jaya who when active will always keep him from going off. Ended up attacking with SSG for the win...

Game 2 - Fully Loaded on Blasts, take out Blood Moon, throw in Manic Vandal and another Magus (for the beats) and proceeded to make sure slow roll my blasts... eventually fetch Jaya again, and basically lock the game until I either attacked in for the win or won via Grindstone.

4-1 (12 Points puts me in First of the Top 8)

Quarter Finals.

Loss (1-2) Imperial Painter Mirror Match X_X of all the things!

Game 1 - I take when my opponent plays an Painter turn 3 while I have Gindstone in Play... (It happens, I did the same thing first time I played this mirror)

Game 2 - Koth shows up to the party and I lose to the mana ability allowing both GS and Painter to happen on the same turn.

Game 3 - This game goes a long long time. Back and forth, 4 revokers, Two welders. I thought I had him when I welded out his revoker, we got back and forth. I never find a GS. He finds 2, but they are revoked by me. I draw Spellskite and say go before I realize what I have done... and he blasts my Revoker next turn after playing Painter. =(

So Yeah I threw it away. =( The goal was learning for me though, as this was only the 3rd event I piloted this deck in.

[Imperial]

Tested the white splash, dropped it. I would say that maybe running only white mana main with the E Tutors in the side might not be a bad plan. You could trade 1 for 1 against the moons when you need to pull them out. But still, that eats up 4 of the 15 sideboard slots and I do not know how valuable that would really be.

Still it would give us speed in the games where we can not lock.

Oh, and welcome.

Thanks man. I'm quite new to Legacy and Imperial Painter, so I'm trying to get to know the deck as well as I can.

[rancOr_]

Played at GP Antwerp in the Legacy Championship with IP yesterday.

9 mountain
4 bloodstained mire
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 SSG
4 painter
4 grindstone
3 SDT
2 koth
4 imperial recruiter
4 blood moon
2 magus of the moon
1 jaya
2 phyrexian revoker
4 pyroblast
2 REB
3 lightning bolt
---------------
4 thorn of amethyst
3 pyroclasm
3 ensnaring bridge
2 phyrexian revoker
1 red elemental blast
2 mindbreak trap

r1- Death and Taxes 1-2
r2- Cephalid Breakfast 2-1
r3- Merfolk 2-0
r4- ANT 2-1
r5- RUG 2-1
r6- IP 2-0
r7- Cloudpost 2-1
r8- TES 2-0

Got 2nd into top8 and we split prizes.
I think the maindeck was quite solid. The koth was pretty good as it won me a game against Cloudpost,DxT and the mirror. Its also a nice alternate wincon under a bridge. I focussed my sb a bit more against combo as I expected a fair amount of them. I didnt get to use the mindbreak traps, but I played them over GYhate as I didnt think there would be alot of Reanimator/Ichorid,which was correct. There should be a Manic Vandal in the sb but I didn't find one in time so I just played another REB. The quad revoker were really good. I boarded #3/4 in against all my MU's except for RUG ofc. They were mainly there for LED,Sneak Attack and Griselbrand but they have alot of play,def MVP yesterday.

Greetings,

Johan-

[sroncor1]

I think some of the views on the white splash are just flat out wrong. The card disadvantage is a moot point is you are winning under a moon. To be honest looking at card advantage is the traditional view is very antiquated and flat out wrong for legacy. Tempo and quality are better than card advantage all the time basically anymore. As such it allows you to win games you never would be able to. And I have hardly had those 3 E tutor kill me because they weren't a lightning bolt. I really think it takes more skill and practice but it gives the deck more versatility without diluting the overall plan and it makes the deck more consistent. And it allows you to play Rest in Peace and Peace Keeper.

Seth

[lambert101]

How has Koth been? In my most updated list I am testing with 2 Koths main deck and thinking about changing numbers to cut a welder and a mountain from my list this weekend. Let me know your thoughts.

[GundamGuy]

Played at GP Antwerp in the Legacy Championship with IP yesterday.

9 mountain
4 bloodstained mire
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 SSG
4 painter
4 grindstone
3 SDT
2 koth
4 imperial recruiter
4 blood moon
2 magus of the moon
1 jaya
2 phyrexian revoker
4 pyroblast
2 REB
3 lightning bolt
---------------
4 thorn of amethyst
3 pyroclasm
3 ensnaring bridge
2 phyrexian revoker
1 red elemental blast
2 mindbreak trap

r1- Death and Taxes 1-2
r2- Cephalid Breakfast 2-1
r3- Merfolk 2-0
r4- ANT 2-1
r5- RUG 2-1
r6- IP 2-0
r7- Cloudpost 2-1
r8- TES 2-0

Got 2nd into top8 and we split prizes.
I think the maindeck was quite solid. The koth was pretty good as it won me a game against Cloudpost,DxT and the mirror. Its also a nice alternate wincon under a bridge. I focussed my sb a bit more against combo as I expected a fair amount of them. I didnt get to use the mindbreak traps, but I played them over GYhate as I didnt think there would be alot of Reanimator/Ichorid,which was correct. There should be a Manic Vandal in the sb but I didn't find one in time so I just played another REB. The quad revoker were really good. I boarded #3/4 in against all my MU's except for RUG ofc. They were mainly there for LED,Sneak Attack and Griselbrand but they have alot of play,def MVP yesterday.

Greetings,

Johan-

First Congratulations.

I have a few questions about your list though, it seems like you were banking on not having to fight though much disruption or removal since you cut Goblin Welder and Spellskite. Did you ever miss them?

[Kap'n Cook]

I think some of the views on the white splash are just flat out wrong. The card disadvantage is a moot point is you are winning under a moon. To be honest looking at card advantage is the traditional view is very antiquated and flat out wrong for legacy. Tempo and quality are better than card advantage all the time basically anymore. As such it allows you to win games you never would be able to. And I have hardly had those 3 E tutor kill me because they weren't a lightning bolt. I really think it takes more skill and practice but it gives the deck more versatility without diluting the overall plan and it makes the deck more consistent. And it allows you to play Rest in Peace and Peace Keeper.

Seth


Well said. Who cares if you go down a card but it wins the game the following turn. They can't thoughtseize the top of your deck. Plus I just like the space it gives my sideboard. Previously I had a hard time squeezing in everything I wanted. Yes, you will sometimes lay a moon and draw a tutor. The pros far outweigh the cons in my opinion after trying e tutor out.

Also, Koth seems much better than the new Chandra popping up in recent lists. Koth straight up wins under a bridge and the mana ramping of the first and 2nd abilities help smooth out some of the red mana constraints the deck can have. Chandra's ultimate will copy a blast or a bolt. My opinion is that you need to have a ton of blockers clogging the board or a dedicated bridge/instant-sorcery build for her so that certainly warrants some testing.

I will say the sweet black pimp version is kinda cool.

Lastly, I am a big fan of value-stoning and filling my yard for when I get a Welder out eventually. So firebolt is a natural inclusion. Regarding sweeping vs single target: sweeping is a really nice option, I just like my removal to be cmc=1.

[GundamGuy]

Well said. Who cares if you go down a card but it wins the game the following turn. They can't thoughtseize the top of your deck. Plus I just like the space it gives my sideboard. Previously I had a hard time squeezing in everything I wanted. Yes, you will sometimes lay a moon and draw a tutor. The pros far outweigh the cons in my opinion after trying e tutor out.

Also, Koth seems much better than the new Chandra popping up in recent lists. Koth straight up wins under a bridge and the mana ramping of the first and 2nd abilities help smooth out some of the red mana constraints the deck can have. Chandra's ultimate will copy a blast or a bolt. My opinion is that you need to have a ton of blockers clogging the board or a dedicated bridge/instant-sorcery build for her so that certainly warrants some testing.

I will say the sweet black pimp version is kinda cool.

Lastly, I am a big fan of value-stoning and filling my yard for when I get a Welder out eventually. So firebolt is a natural inclusion. Regarding sweeping vs single target: sweeping is a really nice option, I just like my removal to be cmc=1.

On the topic of Chandra, Pyromaster vs. Koth of the Hammer (Is there a way to link these cards other then individually searching and hyper-linking them)

The reason some people pick Chandra, Pyromaster has nothing to do with the Ultimate, and entirely to do with the 0 Ability. (Think of her as a 4 mana Red one sided Howling Mine with other abilities which are less relevant). I still think having access to another card which closes out games isn't bad so I like Koth of the Hammer a little more but, honestly I think they fill a completely different game plans.

[Kap'n Cook]

You do koth of the hammer[/cards ] without the spaces

[cards]koth of the hammer
chandra, pyromaster

[rancOr_]

First Congratulations.

I have a few questions about your list though, it seems like you were banking on not having to fight though much disruption or removal since you cut Goblin Welder and Spellskite. Did you ever miss them?

I have played both welder and/or spellskite in the past. I like to play this deck controlish with tops/koths/and almost always get painter with recruiter and try to play it with atleast one backup reb. Obviously u can't counter abrupt decay but those decks are pretty weak to moon effects already. But truth be told u almost never get them with Imperial Recruiter. Koth on the other hand (taking those slots) is a great wincondition and has amazing synergy with this deck. I won some games where I would have lost had it been a welder/spellskite. Also won two games with the -2ability although thats rare. And if you ever get the emblem online like under a bridge thats game.. I also dont get why some list run the chandra while Koth is much better in this deck. So basically I switched welder for Koth and have never looked back. Greetings

[jandax]

I like your 75 rancor, gonna try it this weekend at the LGS

[GoblinZ]

I also dont get why some list run the chandra while Koth is much better in this deck.

because there are always some players just copying the previous decklist

[jake556]

Is it pretty common to mill yourself (Grindstone) with top in play searching for an answer? I was doing this just trying to dig.

[GoblinZ]

yeah, it is pretty common to do that, I even sometimes mill myself "blindly" for there are so many useless cards in my library in the late game.


besides expecting painter doing nice job in Bom and eternal weekend, good luck to you all!

[Dice_Box]

I do this a lot to get rid of lands from Top. I hate looking at those top two cards knowing I have no use for them.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[lambert101]

In testing this week welder has not been missed too much. Koth on the other hand helps against everything but combo. Drawing extra "mountains" under a blood moon turn into a repeatable point of damage to clear the board or kill the opponent. Current test list:

8 sol lands
4 red fetchlands
8 mountain

4 painter
4 grindstone
4 imperial recruiter
4 simian spirt guide
4 pyroblast
2 reb
3 top
4 bolt
1 jaya
2 magus
4 blood moon
1 spellskitte
1 revoker
2 koth

Sideboard:
4 ebridge
4 thorn
3 pyroclasm
2 reb
2 rachet bomb (thinking about cutting this for another revoker and jaya)

Please share your thoughts as I am trying to tune the list for GP DC.

[GundamGuy]

In testing this week welder has not been missed too much. Koth on the other hand helps against everything but combo. Drawing extra "mountains" under a blood moon turn into a repeatable point of damage to clear the board or kill the opponent. Current test list:

8 sol lands
4 red fetchlands
8 mountain

4 painter
4 grindstone
4 imperial recruiter
4 simian spirt guide
4 pyroblast
2 reb
3 top
4 bolt
1 jaya
2 magus
4 blood moon
1 spellskitte
1 revoker
2 koth

Sideboard:
4 ebridge
4 thorn
3 pyroclasm
2 reb
2 rachet bomb (thinking about cutting this for another revoker and jaya)

Please share your thoughts as I am trying to tune the list for GP DC.

I'm also working on tuning my list for GP DC.

Few questions, and or ideas.

I think having access to Goblin Welder is more important then running a 4th Lightning Bolt. If you have a good reason to run a 4th bolt over Goblin Welder or a 2nd MD revoker then go ahead... I just really question if that 4th Lightning Bolt is better then any other option... Another option is to change one Lightning Bolt into an Magma Jet which gives you a little dig ability as well.

Is 3 Pyroclasm and 2 Ratchet Bomb really warranted? This seems like overkill and potentially means you can free up a few sideboard slots for GY Hate or something else relevant. (Also Ratchet Bomb without Goblin Welder seems weaker then it could be)

I'm not 100% sold on the MD Koth of the Hammers myself. I'm in the process of testing this though, so it might be right.

[Dice_Box]

I am not going to say everyone should run it, but I suggest giving some thought to Magma Jet over Lightning Bolt. Costs more, does more. We are a combo deck that has limited access to deck manipulation. Scry is a godsend.

Also a good amount of the common Creatures these days die to 2 damage.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[GundamGuy]

So I too am gearing up for GP DC.

Here is the list that I've currently got sleeved up, and some of my thoughts and or questions.

Artifacts
4x Grindstone
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
1x Goblin Welder
4x Imperial Recruiter
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2x Magus of the Moon
4x Painter's Servant
2x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Spellskite

Enchatments
4x Blood moon

Instants
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Pyroblast
3x Red Elemental Blast

Lands
4x Ancient Tomb
1x Arid Mesa
1x Bloodstained Mire
4x City of Traitors
9x Mountain
2x Scalding Tarn

Sideboard
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Manic Vandal
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Koth of the Hammer

Here are the questions in my mind.

1. I've seen some lists running 3 fetches instead of 4, does this matter? Is there a reason I should run only 3?
2. Some lists I've seen are running 20 lands, is that correct, or is 21 better? If so is cutting a land for a 3rd MD Phyrexian Revoker reasonable?

[CaptainTwiddle]

...
1. I've seen some lists running 3 fetches instead of 4, does this matter? Is there a reason I should run only 3?
2. Some lists I've seen are running 20 lands, is that correct, or is 21 better? If so is cutting a land for a 3rd MD Phyrexian Revoker reasonable?

As someone who has not personally played this deck/archetype, I was wondering why you wouldn't want to run more R/x fetch lands. One of the known issues with this deck is that it's a combo deck without much library manipulation/card draw. Running additional fetch lands helps get more mileage out of Sensei's Divining Top and they work as traditional mana sources under a Blood Moon.

Perhaps...

8 Sol Lands
7 Mountain
5-6 R/x fetch lands

[jandax]

For those of you gearing up for the GP, I'd suggest the list rancor used to place 2nd at the GP Antwerp sunday event. It has no GY hate, and I ran the list at my local today going X-1 and splitting the top 4. It was solid all around, but no GY hate at a GP seems foolish to say the least. WIth my experience, I would suggest this following 75;


8 Mountain
4 Red Fetchlands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

1 Lotus Petal
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Magma Jet
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Koth of the Hammer

Board:
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Thorn of Amethist
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Pyroclasm


A quick breakdown:

This is a combo deck that wants to side into the control in certain matchups. eBridge is an MVP.

20 Lands: There's a fine line between acceleration and color screw. I find 8 sol lands correct, but won't fault others in the thread for shaving a City of Traitors. Four fetches play nicely with the four Recruiters to help sift through junk with Top. I used to run two, then three.

rancor's list had 4 Bolts, where I shaved one from my tournament list from today down to three. They were all right, but as previously mentioned, Magma Jet would have been better in all circumstances. The scrye effect is just so good for this deck.

The two revokers MD are great. They give you enough disruption for game ones, and the supplements from the SB also go with the control/dork-beatdowns.

I personally like having two Jaya, as the first one tends to not stick around and then that plan is out the door when it's normally pretty dang good.

No Welders, no GY hate. Fearless. Go with your maindeck Painter/Stone plan, and sideboard into your Big Red control deck when necessary.

This deck cleans up in the loser's bracket so dropping the first round or two isn't the worst.

Playing in my last round today game three against RUG delver, I stick a turn one Blood Moon on the play, then get a hard cast SSG FoW'd :laugh: That was a first.

[CaptainTwiddle]

For those of you gearing up for the GP, I'd suggest the list rancor used to place 2nd at the GP Antwerp sunday event. It has no GY hate, and I ran the list at my local today going X-1 and splitting the top 4. It was solid all around, but no GY hate at a GP seems foolish to say the least. WIth my experience, I would suggest this following 75;


8 Mountain
4 Red Fetchlands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Magma Jet
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Koth of the Hammer

Board:
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Thorn of Amethist
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Pyroclasm


A quick breakdown:

This is a combo deck that wants to side into the control in certain matchups. eBridge is an MVP.

20 Lands: There's a fine line between acceleration and color screw. I find 8 sol lands correct, but won't fault others in the thread for shaving a City of Traitors. Four fetches play nicely with the four Recruiters to help sift through junk with Top. I used to run two, then three.

rancor's list had 4 Bolts, where I shaved one from my tournament list from today down to three. They were all right, but as previously mentioned, Magma Jet would have been better in all circumstances. The scrye effect is just so good for this deck.

The two revokers MD are great. They give you enough disruption for game ones, and the supplements from the SB also go with the control/dork-beatdowns.

I personally like having two Jaya, as the first one tends to not stick around and then that plan is out the door when it's normally pretty dang good.

No Welders, no GY hate. Fearless. Go with your maindeck Painter/Stone plan, and sideboard into your Big Red control deck when necessary.

This deck cleans up in the loser's bracket so dropping the first round or two isn't the worst.

Playing in my last round today game three against RUG delver, I stick a turn one Blood Moon on the play, then get a hard cast SSG FoW'd :laugh: That was a first.

By my count, this list is only 59 cards. What's missing?

Also, why do people always opt for more Pyroblast than Red Elemental Blast? Isn't Pyroblast just weeker against Divert? Assuming there isn't a Painter's Servant naming blue on board, a Divert can change the target of a Pyroblast to a non-blue permanent (which then has no effect), while a REB can't be changed to a non-blue target.

[Kap'n Cook]

By my count, this list is only 59 cards. What's missing?

Also, why do people always opt for more Pyroblast than Red Elemental Blast? Isn't Pyroblast just weeker against Divert? Assuming there isn't a Painter's Servant naming blue on board, a Divert can change the target of a Pyroblast to a non-blue permanent (which then has no effect), while a REB can't be changed to a non-blue target.

This has been brought up a number of times. Pyro can get you under a bridge without a painter in play, reb can only target blue stuff.

[CaptainTwiddle]

This has been brought up a number of times. Pyro can get you under a bridge without a painter in play, reb can only target blue stuff.

Thank you. I assumed there was an explanation somewhere, but 30 pages is a lot to read through.

I still wonder what the missing card in the above list is, though.

[jandax]

Hmmm, 59 cards wasn't my intention, was just copying the list from the top of my head. In that case I'd say it'd be the 4th Magma Jet, typo.

The list was solid. Emrakul decks are always a problem but everything else is either easy or beatable with good draws and tighter play.

[GundamGuy]

Question about Pyroclasm are we that afraid of affinity that we should run Pyrocasm over say Whipflare? Is there another reason I'm missing?

[jandax]

Whipflare is probably better. And affinity isn't a worry per se, I beat it today on the back of Revoker naming Cranial Plating both games. If you get under a Bridge, it's nigh unwinnable for them.

There's no real reason to run Pyroclasm over Whipflare, it might be more of a question of overthinking or card availability. The thing is, Pyroclasm also does work verses decks like DnT, popular here, and they run things like Revokers so it's worth running Pyroclasm. Plus, as you mentioned it's a straight up blank against affinity, which is a common deck.

[GoblinZ]

Hmmm, 59 cards wasn't my intention, was just copying the list from the top of my head. In that case I'd say it'd be the 4th Magma Jet, typo.

The list was solid. Emrakul decks are always a problem but everything else is either easy or beatable with good draws and tighter play.

maybe the 3rd revoker in the main? I run nearly the same list as yours, I am thinking replace 4th bolt/ jet with the 3rd revoker.

[jandax]

There was definitely a 2/2 split of Revokers between the main and board, it wasn't that for sure. It also could have been the 3rd REB MD. I'm having a hard time with it lol, but I definitely did play with a legal deck!

edit:

It was a lonesome Lotus Petal :rolleyes:

That's what was missing

[kavaki]

Hmmm, 59 cards wasn't my intention, was just copying the list from the top of my head. In that case I'd say it'd be the 4th Magma Jet, typo.

The list was solid. Emrakul decks are always a problem but everything else is either easy or beatable with good draws and tighter play.

As someone who has a pulse on the D.C. meta (and more so south of D.C.), I can say to people not to doubt the love of Sneak Show here. I either see Tempo or Sneak Show doing well. On the other hand, Blood Moon is where you want to be in the meta as well as Shardless and BUG Control are also played.

Im just sharing what I have noticed on a common basis.

[Ish]

As someone who has a pulse on the D.C. meta (and more so south of D.C.), I can say to people not to doubt the love of Sneak Show here. I either see Tempo or Sneak Show doing well. On the other hand, Blood Moon is where you want to be in the meta as well as Shardless and BUG Control are also played. Im just sharing what I have noticed on a common basis.

I'm north of DC and couldn't agree more with this observation. SnT and Shardless are heavily played in the regional meta. Be prepared for easy wins with moon, AND having to deal with the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

[Imperial]

I'm on a tilt wondering how many Tops I should include main-board. I've come to the conclusion that 2-3 is the best number, but I'd like to hear some of the more experienced player's opinions. Is 2 an optimal number of Tops?

[jandax]

No, three tops will almost insure you see them every match, not game. The deck can't afford a flood of any sort, tops included because shuffle effects aren't plentiful. Three tops and at least seven shuffle effects (IR, fetches, Gamble for the misers)

[jake556]

Looking through some of the lists I noticed none of the actually run GY hate. I do understand Emrakul match ups are not in our favor, is it just best to go the beat down plan side out Grindstones for Ensnaring bridges? As well as siding in all blasts? Ensnaring Bridge is our best card against Sneak Show right?

[jandax]

I've been doing that line of play and it seems to work. The thing about GY hate against Emrakul decks is that you need to have the piece of hate ready, basically making it an extra combo piece. I do side out my stones for Bridges. They just pull so much weight. If they don't nut draw you and end the game in teh first couple turns, you can sit behind a bridge and either assymble Jaya/PS or just dork beatdowns for the win. Like I mentioned in my post last page, I play the deck like a combo deck mainboard, and control from the side. I hate the elves matchup, burn isn't much better, fast combo/beatdown is annoying, and that leaves the rest of the field to beat up on.

I'd say spend your time testing your bad matchups, as you can get wins over time if your play is as tight as possible. Don't waste time on matches that are decent to good.

No GY ftw (atm)

[jandax]

So who all is going to be painting at the GP? I think I finally settled on a 75 that I'm happy with. Hasn't happened since I picked the deck up, every tournament was a few cards off the last one. No Welders, no GY hate, just pure Imperial Painter:

8 Mountain
4 Red Fetchlands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Magma Jet
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Koth of the Hammer

Board:
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Thorn of Amethist
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Pyroclasm


Feels good man. Gonna run this in a couple weeks at another local for another free roll.

Good luck to you all going to DC!

[lambert101]

Hey all I am planning on painting in DC. Here is the list I am settling on.

8 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Simian Spirt Guide
4 Blood Moon
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Spellskitte
2 Koth of the Hammet
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Rachet Bomb
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroclasm

[jandax]

Looks like we're doing about the same thing, although I highly urge you to up your Revoker count. The damn thing is so good you can steal Game ones by naming Dread Return, Heritage Druid, LED, Griselbrand and so on. And I stand behind Magma Jet in lieu of Lightning Bolt. The Scrye effect is just so helpful, and two damage takes care of a wide variety of creatures that three damage kills as well.

Good luck at the GP and update the thread for those in Day Two!

[GoblinZ]

Looks like we're doing about the same thing, although I highly urge you to up your Revoker count. The damn thing is so good you can steal Game ones by naming Dread Return, Heritage Druid, LED, Griselbrand and so on. And I stand behind Magma Jet in lieu of Lightning Bolt. The Scrye effect is just so helpful, and two damage takes care of a wide variety of creatures that three damage kills as well.

Good luck at the GP and update the thread for those in Day Two!

How could revoker name dread return？ jet is great in mid game, but it is slow to deal with turn one drs or some elf on the draw. And it will cost you 3 mana to kill thalia.

[Wasteland]

Wouldn't it make sense to play "sudden demise" from the commander-box over pyroclasm? You are able to deal more then 2 dmg to any creature AND for example vs. elves your revoker / Magus / whatever survives the sweeper.

[zangoasyl]

Hey all, I am new to this awesome deck and have a few short questions:
1. Why isn't anybody playing Manic Vandal anymore? A recruitable artifact hate seems necessary for the unexperienced... Rancor was the last to mention it, but all of the last lists are playing without the vandal.
2. As GundamGuy pointed out Chandra, Pyromaster is in for the card draw ability. It seems to be a good alternative to the third Sensei's Divining Top for the additional cards draw and some extra optional damage, but in the thread I have not seen anybody writing about having plans of substituting this SDT slot. Everybody is just comparing chandra to koth of the hammer. Do you think a third SDT is still necessary if a copy of chandra is in the 60?
3. How are your thoughts about Kap'n Cook's 2 maindeck Ensnaring Bridge in the current meta? I really like that idea of potentially having them available game 1, but everybody else seems to put all of them in the board.

[Moomba]

@zangoasyl

1. I personally still run manic vandal in the sideboard, stop other players needles, or other forms of disruption to our combo.
2. Sol land > sensei's > activate sensei's is prolly my 3rd favourite turn 1, and I like being able to do it consistently.
3. I once tried to run 4 ensnaring main deck. It's all really dependent on your metagame and if you think it'll be a better option than others in the MD.

[jandax]

How could revoker name dread return？ jet is great in mid game, but it is slow to deal with turn one drs or some elf on the draw. And it will cost you 3 mana to kill thalia.

Flashback is an activated ability. Less I be retard

[Jay_Gatz]

Flashback is an activated ability. Less I be retard
Nope, just an alternate way to cast spells.

[Ish]

Haha welcome to the painter thread Mr. Gatz!

[GoblinZ]

Hey all, I am new to this awesome deck and have a few short questions:
1. Why isn't anybody playing Manic Vandal anymore? A recruitable artifact hate seems necessary for the unexperienced... Rancor was the last to mention it, but all of the last lists are playing without the vandal.
2. As GundamGuy pointed out Chandra, Pyromaster is in for the card draw ability. It seems to be a good alternative to the third Sensei's Divining Top for the additional cards draw and some extra optional damage, but in the thread I have not seen anybody writing about having plans of substituting this SDT slot. Everybody is just comparing chandra to koth of the hammer. Do you think a third SDT is still necessary if a copy of chandra is in the 60?
3. How are your thoughts about Kap'n Cook's 2 maindeck Ensnaring Bridge in the current meta? I really like that idea of potentially having them available game 1, but everybody else seems to put all of them in the board.

I never cut manic vandal from my 75, I personally think cutting it is a huge mistake. It is the most effective to deal with jitte, since your revoker can not ensure your safety. And it is really a good card against the Dnt, if you go to a large tournament right now, you should prepare something for that deck.

I think chandra is okay but not that effective.The reason why play 3 SNt is that I always want to see one SDT in my openning hand but not a chandra. the first ability of chandra is not as destructive as the first ability of koth against control, and is not that effective agaisnt aggro. the second ability of chandra is not that good unless you have already had one sdt on the board.

[jandax]

Nope, just an alternate way to cast spells.

http://i.imgur.com/aSHK8EP.jpg

[sroncor1]

So who is going to the GP? I'll be there at least Saturday but I might try and get a little bit of playing and talking shop come Friday night. What are people's thoughts?

Seth

[Ish]

So who is going to the GP? I'll be there at least Saturday but I might try and get a little bit of playing and talking shop come Friday night. What are people's thoughts? Seth

I'll be there Friday to Sat. But I'll be playing UR Painter. Still painter, but some different tools.

[Kap'n Cook]

I'll be there Friday to Sat. But I'll be playing UR Painter. Still painter, but some different tools.

What didn't you like about imperial/like more about ur? Just curious

[Ish]

What didn't you like about imperial/like more about ur? Just curious

Love both decks.

I loved the heavy moon style iPainter allowed for, but that had been letting me down for a little while. I know you adjusted a bit off the all in moon plan.

I have also always been a huge proponent of welder too. UR gives me 4. I can also find grindstone a little easier with transmute and intuition.

What I miss. Jaya!!! OMG that is still one of the most powerful things iPainter can do IMO. Also just beats after lock with revoker, magus and such.

So it's a personal/meta call for me right now. But in no way would I say either is better, or even which is better in the meta. If I run into shardless bug over and over in DC boy will I miss mono red. But, I have been running into miracles and other basic land heavy decks for some months now.



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[kingtk3]

http://i.imgur.com/aSHK8EP.jpg

You made my day guys, thank you very much!!!

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

So who all is going to be painting at the GP? I think I finally settled on a 75 that I'm happy with. Hasn't happened since I picked the deck up, every tournament was a few cards off the last one. No Welders, no GY hate, just pure Imperial Painter:

8 Mountain
4 Red Fetchlands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Magma Jet
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Koth of the Hammer

Board:
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Thorn of Amethist
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Pyroclasm


Feels good man. Gonna run this in a couple weeks at another local for another free roll.

Good luck to you all going to DC!
Man, in this way you will lose from S&T decks, without possibility. It's better a sideaboard like:
4 tormod's crypt
4 esnaring bridge
4 thorn of amethist
1 maniac vandal
2 ricochet trap

Richochet trap is very good against abrupt and counters.

[Ish]

Man, in this way you will lose from S&T decks, without possibility. It's better a sideaboard like:
4 tormod's crypt
4 esnaring bridge
4 thorn of amethist
1 maniac vandal
2 ricochet trap

Richochet trap is very good against abrupt and counters.

How so? 4 ensnaring bridge is the best thing you can have against sneak and show. Plus the extra blast. If you're referring to the crypts then so that you can still combo, then you're talking about boarding in 8 cards??? What would you possibly take out for 8 cards???


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[Kap'n Cook]

I'll be chillin with Seth Saturday. I encourage other painters to join in our little group.

[jandax]

How so? 4 ensnaring bridge is the best thing you can have against sneak and show. Plus the extra blast. If you're referring to the crypts then so that you can still combo, then you're talking about boarding in 8 cards??? What would you possibly take out for 8 cards???


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This.

I bring in the Bridges, Blast, Jaya and probably extra Revokers for 4 GS ad 4 Blood moon. It's not like I can't possibly lose, but their lines of attack are thwarted enough for my deck to win. I just think that using Crypts to GS/PS combo is janky. Not even gonna bother.

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

How so? 4 ensnaring bridge is the best thing you can have against sneak and show. Plus the extra blast. If you're referring to the crypts then so that you can still combo, then you're talking about boarding in 8 cards??? What would you possibly take out for 8 cards???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Yeah, it's very good when they see a Griselabrand, they draw 7 cards and they cast a wipe out. 4 lightning bolt, 4 blood moon, 3 magus of the moon: the 11 useless cards against s&t decks that you can side-out.

[jandax]

Yeah, it's very good when they see a Griselabrand, they draw 7 cards and they cast a wipe out. 4 lightning bolt, 4 blood moon, 3 magus of the moon: the 11 useless cards against s&t decks that you can side-out.

To be fair, you quoted my sideboard. I don't run Bolts any more. I run four Revokers in my 75, and I more often than not name Griselbrand before I name Sneak Attack. You see, if they have the Griz, you don't have the revoker, etc., and they then have the mana and sideboarded Wipe Away in hand (do they honestly play this card?) then they win. Magical Christmas Land, this isn't the easiest match up ever.

You're not being objective here, not slamming you. If you want to know more about this deck, welcome to the thread! Just ask away and we're all happy to answer.

[lambert101]

hi all I went 3-2 this week at a 20-30ish legacy event. My list was same as above.

match-ups

Agro Loam
g1 and g2 blood moon and then painter, blast their basics

w 2-0

Burn

Too fast with too much damage to the head

L 0-2

Aluren

With grindstone activation on the stack he beat me

Ant

Thorns and blast do work

2-1

Last Round Opponent got mad and left..Free WIn

Overall list felt ok. It was a little slow at some times. I am open to any suggestions for DC this upcoming week.

Paint it Red.

[GundamGuy]

Yeah, it's very good when they see a Griselabrand, they draw 7 cards and they cast a wipe out. 4 lightning bolt, 4 blood moon, 3 magus of the moon: the 11 useless cards against s&t decks that you can side-out.

How is Lightning Bolt Useless?

If you lock them down with Revokers and Ensnaring Bridge having Direct Damage to push though some extra points of damage seems fine, also sometimes you can surprise bolt them in response to there GB activation, putting them at an awkward life total or outright killing them.

Not as good clearly as in other match-ups, but I think the reason you view this as useless is because you are thinking of this match-up incorrectly. It's an standard aggro-control Control match, you drop a threat and then deny them there resources using Revoker (can also be your threat [Sweet]) and ensnaring bridge. Then you only care about one or two cards in there deck, and build a wall of Blasts to deal with them.

Yes sometimes they play Wipe Away, or Echoing Truth. IMO this shouldn't be a huge problem as Wipe Away is usually a one of, and that's why you should run out any additional Bridges you draw...

[lambert101]

How are people battling True Name-Nemesis? I think my 3 Pyroclams in my sideboard are going to have to turn into 2 manic vandals for jitte and another spellskite. Thoughts?

[rancOr_]

Ensnaring Bridge

[lambert101]

I run 4 in the side.

[GundamGuy]

How are people battling True Name-Nemesis? I think my 3 Pyroclams in my sideboard are going to have to turn into 2 manic vandals for jitte and another spellskite. Thoughts?


Ensnaring Bridge

Seems ok. Keep in mind the non-merfolk decks that seem to be leaning heavily on TNN have mana bases which are weaker to Blood moon. The double blue means we can make this hard if not impossible to cast with blood moon.

Option 2: Counter it with blast.

Option 3: Ensnaring Bridge.

[jandax]

Option 4: Just kill them.

[lambert101]

With the rise of TNN decks this weekend I am
evaluating my main deck again. I
thinking of the possibility of changing my main to include 2 ensnaring bridges main deck. My list would then look like

8 sol lands
8 mountain
4 Fetch land

4 simian
4 blood moon
1 magus of moon
1 jaya
1 spellskitte
2 ensnaring bridge
4 painter
4 grindstone
2 koth
3 top
4 lightning bolt
4 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
4 imperial recruiter

board:
4 thorn of Amythest
2 Red elemental blast
2 ensnaring bridge
2 rachet bomb
1 phrexian revoker
4 spots that i am open for sugesstions

I notices that this deck needs some form of raw card advantage...any suggestions?

edit: Also thoughts about dangerous wager or tezz's gambit as card draw? The wager is interesting while in top deck mode with instant speed.

[jandax]

I've suggested you drop Lightning Bolt for Magma Jet already. It goes well wtih Top and the two damage knocks off most critters TNN decks are playing. I dunno if TNN is the threat it is made out to be, honestly. We'll see this weekend, for sure. Maybe you can just load up on Blasts and play more control if they fetch/open with a blue source. The line of thought being that your opps are likely to be running the TNN and maybe you want to have/hold a blast open for the counter. Otherwise, Bridge will pull weight, and Ratchet Bomb might be too slow to tick up to three. I'd say stick to your deck's strengths and run 8 blasts and two Bridges maindeck. That should not hamper the deck but still give it game ones' more of a chance. That is, assuming TNN lives up to its hype.

[lambert101]

@jandax

Thank you for your input. After a long debate, I may take you up on going to 3 Magma Jet, cutting Bolt, and then adding 1 Lotus Petal. My only worry is that taking out the turn 1 deathrite eot then blood moon is a game ending play.

[Kap'n Cook]

For draw you can always get welder+top online rather than run bad cards like gambit/wager.

I don't anticipate nemesis being a problem for all the reasons mentioned so far. Jitte is the only problem card. But bridges blasts etc willl be allstars.

[lambert101]

Bridge is going to do work. I am just unsure if I should play it in the main. Another uncertainty I am facing is 4 bolt vs 3 magma jet (for more filtering) and 1 lotus petal. Likewise, I am reevaluating if 3 pyrolcasm is worth it in the sideboard over revokers and other recruiter targets. Sorry if I am being repetitive. I am trying to get list and boarding plans ready for GP DC this week.

[Dice_Box]

Under Bridge I sometimes wish I had a discard outlet. So I have moved to a 3/1 Bridge/Meekstone split and I am thinking of adding Peacekeeper.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[jandax]

Why play Peacekeeper?

Just play an extra Jaya and there's your discard outlet. Plus it wins you the game more than Peacekeeper does.

[GoblinZ]

Under Bridge I sometimes wish I had a discard outlet. So I have moved to a 3/1 Bridge/Meekstone split and I am thinking of adding Peacekeeper.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

you can play ali from Cairo if you want to have some fun:tongue:

[Dice_Box]

Thought about him before, the issue is he does nothing to life lost. So Bump in the night for example would end you... or Deathrite.

[GundamGuy]

Working on my deck list for the weekend.

Quick Question some of the Match-up analysis in the start of this thread seems a little outdated. Metamorph tricks, no mention of Death and Taxes.

Is there any possibility of this seeing an update this week?

Any suggestions for Death and Taxes. I feel the match-up is OK, but in my play testing, I lost after a longer games, (Seems like I was doing something wrong or ignoring something I shouldn't have been)

[jandax]

DnT is winnable, and I would prefer to be behind Painter in the long game.

Here's a recap of my experience facing the deck.

They have dorks for days. Many of them are super annoying, like Aven Mindscensor, True Believer, Phyrexian Revoker. All of them get wiped out by a sweeper; Pyroclasm, Ratchet Bomb (gets around Mom), Sudden Demise (doesn't hit Revoker). Their only path to victory is through combat damage, so in sideboard games you need to have four Ensnaring Bridge on board.

Believe it or not, Blood Moon is still decent, as it locks up their 12 utility lands, eight of which lock up your own lands (Wasteland and Rishadan Port). I would side out Magus, though, as he'll eat a Swords if you were looking to stick a Moon effect and have it last. Revokers are also quite good, but only play out one or two on their most manageable threats like Mom or Vial, let them have Top, though. You have your own to dig with. Here's how you set up for a winning scenario pretty much all the time:


Let them go on the beatdown path. This line of play forces you to lose some life, which can be dangerous, but it also forces them to commit heavily to the board. That's when you drop an Ensnaring Bridge and/or sweep the board clean. If you can sit behind a Bridge, do it, and if you draw multiples, cast them. Nothing worse than them removing your lone bridge and swinging for the win, especially when you had things under control. It's better value to hold onto your Revokers/Recruiters/guys until after you cast a bridge or sweeper. Lay down fresh Revokers on their threats, and by this time you should have a couple blasts in hand if not the combo itself. Try to get it all out and over in one turn, as the window for them to draw and cast Swords to Plowshares is quite high. Goblin Welder is sweeter than normal in this matchup, as it can remove a Revoker on Grindstone if need be.

Basically, you're the control in this matchup. Don't try to combo off on turn two unless you have the nut draw with a Blast as backup for their inevitable StP. Play for the long game, draw out their hand, shut off their card advantage (Mangara, Mom, etc) and sit behind your lock pieces (Moon/Bridge). Stay alive until you can mill them out. I'd say the biggest key to the matchup is knowing the most common 75's, so no "tech" or random creatures will surprise you and throw off your game plan. In the end, Painter can win in one turn, DnT needs several. Painter can infinitely slow down that clock via its lock pieces and access to removal. I'd say if you can't live play test, dig up a few videos from Eternal Weekend and BoM recently and watch DnT matchs. See how they play things out. Watch the deck in action, so come show time you won't be reactive, but more proactive.

[Kap'n Cook]

Jandax has a good description for D+T.

I'll get around to posting some more matchup primers in the next day or two. Are there any others anyone wants?

[Imperial]

Jandax has a good description for D+T.

I'll get around to posting some more matchup primers in the next day or two. Are there any others anyone wants?

Not sure if its been covered, but maybe a section VS. Elves?

[jandax]

Roll over and bite the pillow...


Superserial, Elves is nigh winnable. There's a not-so-good elves player in my area that I ALWAYS lose too, it's becoming a joke now. Over the last few month's we've all been Top X'ing and he's always been my one, if not only loss. I do my damnedest to keep him from durdling along but it's just not happening. Nowadays they are running NoPro, which means your PS/Stone combo is blanked because they pretty much run an Emrakul as well. Sweepers help, bridges help, but their dorks are more plentiful than yours. Your best shot is probably to revoker their shit like Heritage Drood, Symbiote, Blast thier GSZ's, Blast their artifact removal, and then Jaya them to death. That's like a 10 card combo, and that's why this matchup licks balls.

[rancOr_]

If ur on the play u have to go for t1 moon. Otherwise it's combo out before they do or lose..
I'm testing 3 Ensnaring Bridge again in my latest list, where I previously had 3 LB. It's looking really good and I like the free wins it gives. Also there's a pretty good synergy with my MD as I'm more combo orientated(Koth,welder).

[jandax]

Well if you can nut draw them then you have a chance. But the guy to whom I was referring plays mono G elves, 4th ed. forests and all...

Against the decks that run only one or two basics, the odds go up a bit I'd say, because Moons aren't a dead card.

Rancor unless you're metagaming, I think three MD bridges puts you more into the prison shell and are shying away from combo. Although I haven't tested anything like that out, that's just a first impression.

[Kap'n Cook]

Elves is in the front section already. I'll reiterate though. Blood moon is only game ending turn 1 on the play. Any later than that and it delays them a turn or two max. If they run 2 or more colors emrakul shouldn't be there. Mono g emrakul elves is really hard and you basically have to 3 card combo them or hope they draw emrakul since you can't kill everything they have.

But back to normal builds:
Blast gsz at x=3,8 and glimpse and NO. that should buy you another couple turns. I usually try to burn out any elf they play t1 that produces additional mana because that should buy you another turn as well. Bridge is good unless they get a glimpse chain then you just die. Usually If you're on the draw and you have a turn 3 kill with no disruption it'll be too slow.

[GundamGuy]

Alright I'm 99% sure this is the list I'm taking to GP DC.


4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Blood Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Goblin Welder
1 Spellskite
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
3 Lightning Bolt

9 Mountain
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors


Sideboard


4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Manic Vandal
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Koth of the Hammer


Comments welcome.

I decided I wanted to up my land count from 20 to 21 because I am more comfortable that way. If I wasn't running that extra land I would likely run a third MD revoker.

Also I decided I can live with access to 7 Blast effects, instead of 8. It might not be the right call, but I think I can live with it.
I cut the 8th to fit in two Pyroblast and 1 Koth.

I wanted the Koth as a secondary win condition for Sneak and Show, so I'm not all in on one Jaya Ballard. I guess this could be a second Jaya. (What other match-ups is Koth good for?)

Pyroblast because I'm expecting Death and Taxes to be on the rise and as a good control card.

[Kap'n Cook]

Looks good man. Koth obviously comes in against control decks. But also against most decks you bring in the bridges for so you have a wincon under the bridge too.

I made one last tweak to my list as well if anyone cares. I finally dropped the last faithless looting after switching to enlightened tutor. Not especially happy since I really do like faithless in Painter, I just think white splash helps a ton more. The 2nd bridge is moving to the main to steal a ton of wins. In that last sideboard slot is the 7th blast I've been off and on about.

Also, I've been on a huge testing kick that is over with now. I played a ton of games in preparation for the gp and here are the results:

12 post 2 1
affinity 1 0
ant 3 1
bant 2 0
belcher 2 1
bg depths 0 2
bug 2 0
burg 2 0
burn 4 1
death and taxes 4 2
deathblade 1 0
dredge 3 0
elves 4 3
enchantress 2 3
epic storm 0 1
esper control 2 0
food chain 0 1
goblins 1 0
grixis delver 2 1
hypergenesis 0 1
infect 2 0
jund 4 1
junk 3 0
manaless dredge 1 0
maverick 0 1
merfolk 1 1
miracles 9 5
mud 2 0
pox 3 0
reanimator 3 1
rogue hermit 1 2
rug 7 3
shardless bug 4 1
slivers 3 0
sneak and show 6 5
stasis 1 0
stoneblade 0 1
tin fins 3 2
ur delver 1 0
omni 1 2
ur painter 2 1
ur standstill 2 1
uw thopter 1 0
uwr delver 5 0
waterfalls 3 1
105 46


It won't let me edit the rows to make all the numbers all nice so this will have to do. I think this is fairly representative of how most matchups are for Painter in general. Burn obviously is an outlier, and of course there are a few punts here and there.

[jandax]

How did you go 0-2 on BG Depths? Was Blood Moon not good enough? What am I missing?

[jandax]

Had an Epiphany regarding the mono G Elves matchup.

Jaya's third ability.


They're generally going to build up into a Craterhoof for the win, so you have a two card combo that'll help waste the entire start of their game.

Ensnaring Bridge has to come down as early as possible, and you have to get a Jaya online before their combo turn. Let them waste time destroying the bridge, and just pop Jaya for 6 damage with the cratterhoof trigger on the stack. Wipes thier board, does some damage. They aren't exactly drawing live, as they'd have used up their Symbiotes and other activations and glimpses to combo out that turn. You, on the other hand, can set up a board with another bridge and get some dork beats on, or IR for another Jaya and just nug them to death. The matchup is a long shot to begin with, at least this is a letgitimate way to win. Thoughts?

[Kap'n Cook]

The depths player was running his own brew with a little reanimation package. But you can't really beat petal-ritual-depths/hexmage-spoils of the vault for the other piece turn one. That happened twice out of four game losses and the other two still involved a lot of pinpoint discard. Kind of a funky little combo brew.

[GoblinZ]

Had an Epiphany regarding the mono G Elves matchup.

Jaya's third ability.


They're generally going to build up into a Craterhoof for the win, so you have a two card combo that'll help waste the entire start of their game.

Ensnaring Bridge has to come down as early as possible, and you have to get a Jaya online before their combo turn. Let them waste time destroying the bridge, and just pop Jaya for 6 damage with the cratterhoof trigger on the stack. Wipes thier board, does some damage. They aren't exactly drawing live, as they'd have used up their Symbiotes and other activations and glimpses to combo out that turn. You, on the other hand, can set up a board with another bridge and get some dork beats on, or IR for another Jaya and just nug them to death. The matchup is a long shot to begin with, at least this is a letgitimate way to win. Thoughts?


For current version of elves, what do you side out in g2 and g3? I have not done serious test against elves, I think I should take out moon when I am on the draw, but not sure if I should bring it back if I am on the play.

[jandax]

For current version of elves, what do you side out in g2 and g3? I have not done serious test against elves, I think I should take out moon when I am on the draw, but not sure if I should bring it back if I am on the play.

I forgo the Grindstone kill. They either have Emrakul, or Progenitus in their 75, so it's sort of pointless. Swap your four grindstones for four Ensnaring Bridge, and shave burn/blast spell or two for sweepers. I'm currently running Pyroclasm, but if I can get my hands on some Sudden Demise I'd run that instead. I'd say you want at least three sweepers and four bridges going into game two and three. What you side out depends on the matchup, against the mono G version all your moons and grindstones come out. Magus can stay in because he still blocks/beats/deals wtih Cradle. Against the Gbw version, moons are still good. I'd mull a hand without a turn one Moon or at least one sweeper. As stated, your best bet in this matchup is to lock up the game with Ensnaring Bridge, counter any GSZ for x=3 or more, and ride Jaya to a victory. Koth works here too because he works under Bridge if you ultimate him the game is pretty much over.

[jandax]

So, who got to day 2?

[lambert101]

i audible to miracles at the last minute and did crappy. Based on the amount of TNN and elves I saw we need Bridges main. Also magus may move down to 1 in the main. Updated testing list is going to look like the following:

9 mountain
4 City of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 scalding tarn

4 painter
4 imperial recruiter
4 grindstone
1 Spellskitte
1 jaya
1 magus of the moon
4 simian spirt guide
4 blood moon
3 top
4 pyroblast
1 reb
3 magma jet
3 ensnaring bridge
2 koth of the hammer

board:
1 ensnaring bridge
2 rachetbomb
4 thorn of ameythest
1 manic vandal
3 reb
1 phyrexian revoker
3 pyroclasm

[jandax]

lol, sorry but that's what you get for not sticking to your guns.

And maybe this list looks a little pre-sideboarded. Or in any case good for a tournament that has already started. I definitely don't think Koth MD is good if you're worried about TNN/Elves. Just sayin'

[Kap'n Cook]

Quick post for now. Longer report with everything later on tonight or this week

Ant 2-1
Tes 1-2
Rug 2-1
Miracles 2-1
Rug 0-2
UR Delver 2-1
Team America 2-1
Werewolf Stompy 1-2 (punts)
Merfolk 2-0


Besides merfolk and team America to an extent, my matchups weren't really that friendly. All others I was under pressure to deal with threats very quickly (even miracles with a lot of counterbalances). It was unfortunate I didn't play against any blade/shardless decks where you have time to set up a dominant position.

A few hands I kept game 1 were money against sneak and show/blade variants with bridges but I ended up against fast delvers or young pyromancers.

I wouldn't switch up the list at all really. I was never out of it in any match and if I hadn't punted werewolf and maybe thought a little longer against tes (I will post the situation for to see what you guys think) I might have been 8-1. Either way it was all good. A ton of players were there and I definitely overheard multiple times people had played against Painter of some sort. I don't know if any Imperials Day 2d but I wouldn't be surprised.

[lambert101]

Kap'n sorry I didn't get to meet up with you.

Also about my lost it does look a little pre-boarded. The reason being is that after watching a good amount of legacy, creatures are whats winning games. Sneak Show, TNN.dec, and deathrite.dec bridges are good against. The storm match-ups are what thorn and fast painter into grind. I also am going to finally try magma jet more seriously as a removal/dig. I am going to try the haymaker mentality with this deck and overload on bomb control cards with a little disruption in the form of blast. I do need help in figuring out the DnT and Miracles match-ups.

[GundamGuy]

Quick Update:

Miracles: 0-1-1 (Loss)
Elves: 2-1
Shardless Bug: 2-0 Blood Moon!
Merfolk: 2-0 BLAST!
RUG Delver: 1-2
Sneak and Show: 2-0
Burn: 1-2 (End of my day)

I will post more details later.

[Kap'n Cook]

GP DC Report: Something like 400th place probably

Red/White Imperial Painter (Strawberry Painter?)

7 Sol Land
4 Fetches
1 Furnace
2 Plateau
5 Mountain

4 Painter
4 Recruiter
4 SSG
3 Welder
2 Revoker
1 Magus
1 Jaya

4 Stone
4 Moon
3 Top
2 E tutor
2 Bridge
4 Pyro
2 REB

SB
4 Crypt
4 Firebolt
1 Koth
1 Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Trinisphere
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 REB
1 Manic Vandal


I was pumped because this was the first event after a small weekly event where I could play with my new toys:

Posting recruiters too because they are the most pimp. The other 65 are all normal. (question: what's the way to go on pimping it out if I want a good mix of white border to match recruiter? miscut? foreign/foil don't really appeal to me because half the deck can't be foiled and English rec is already the most rare. /aside)

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae278/jkitch44/photo_zps028ded29.jpg


Shoutout to Jandax for helping me get a sweet deal for these Plateaus


No byes for me so I was going to attempt to channel my inner Grymer and run the table

Round 1: Ant

I fan open a hand that absolutely murders any deck trying to attack to win. Something like Welder, Bridge, Blast, 3 lands and an SSG. If I was playing against Rug or Sneak it's basically an autowin. My opponent plays island preordain but then past in flames loops turn 2. Oh well. Game 2 I keep a riskier hand with ancient tomb, painter, stone, welder and 3 non lands. I play out painter turn one and rip a plateau turn 2 to play welder and stone. He can't kill me his turn 2 so he has to try to decay painter when I activate. Welder does his job. Game 3 I mull and open a hand that can turn 1 trinisphere. he probes twice and brainstorms looking for a discard spell. no dice so I trini and the next few turns play a welder, a painter and some random artifacts. he decays sphere but welder does his job again.

side:
out 4 moons, jaya, 2 bridge
in: trinisphere, ratchet bomb, canonist, 3 crypts, 1 blast

Round 2: TES

I keep another hand that isn't too bad against a slower deck with turn 1 moon potential, bridge and some other stuff. He probes turn 1 and lays city of brass and ponders. I assume I'm screwed because I'm up against storm again. I rip revoker and name LED. I land a blood moon and then a simian and they go the distance. Pretty lucky. Game 2 involves a quick empty for 10. I play and spin top looking for help but nothing so I scoop. ratchet bomb 4th card down. Game 3 I keep something like magus, revoker, sol, blast, fetch, grindstone, land. t1 revoker led. turn 2 magus. he had brainstormed and his turn 2 empties for 14. I draw painter and here was the dilemma I faced. he had no hand but knew the card on top from brainstorm. Do I play painter and stone? Do I play painter and keep 1 land open for blast and hope to draw a mana? Do I play painter and if he does nothing important blast magus and have 4 mana again for stone? I chose option 1 to play around discard and burning wish/infernal tutor into discard and he chain of vapored painter. I topdeck a petal and only have 4 mana available.

side:
out: 3 moons, jaya, 1 bridge
in: trinisphere, ratchet bomb, canonist, 1 crypt, 1 blast

Round 3: Rug

Quick welder/bridge puts it away. Game 2 is the usual game of counters and burn and goyf beats. Game 3 I turn 1 stone, turn 2 painter which meets a force. sensing weakness and no daze I ssg blast it. win turn 3.

side:
out: 2 revoker, jaya, magus, top
in: blast, bridge, ratchet, 2 firebolt

Round 4: Miracles

I deal with a counterbalance and a jace before getting locked out. I play a bridge out that he taps his 2nd to last mana to reveal entreat. I end my turn and he tops, in response I grindstone him without a painter in play using a secret ssg. he scoops in response? i'll take it lol. game 2 I get beat down by a clique while trying to blast everything and remove a pithing needle. no dice. game 3 was epic. I have to mull to 5 but keep plateau, ancient tomb, ssg, blast, blood moon. he forces and plays a plains and a karakas. he bricks on blue for a long time and I keep drawing lands and blasts. I play out a painter that he removes but not before I blast his island away. that buys me more time to keep beating with my welder. eventually I get him low enough where he has to jace bounce my ssg and kill off clique blocking welder. I had finally found a grindstone and find a recruiter with like 11 mana available so I get a painter and stone to win on turn 2 of turns

on the draw side:
out 3 moon, petal
in: koth, vandal, blast, ratchet,

on the play side:
back in all moons and petal
out: 2 welder, 2 e tutor

Round 5: Rug

Game 1 I moon lock him but not before 2 delvers flip instantly. nothing I can do. Game 2 I moon lock him again while he has a goyf. I play a bridge but he has ancient grudge (every rug match I play they seem to draw this 1 of ancient grudge) I eventually start chaining recruiters trying to buy time. When I play my 2nd bridge he forces twice through my blast. I use the last recruiter for a welder and he has a bolt.

same as above. if they play lavamancer all 4 firebolts come in over a welder and the 7th blast

Round 6: UR Delver

Another hand with early moon potential and an ensnaring bridge lockdown. a quick 2 young pyromancers off of basics plus probe and 2 daze means a million tokens I cant deal with. I bring in my firebolts and they handle a lavamancer and a delver, buying me time to combo off with double blast protection. Game 3 involves a mull down to 5 again but I firebolt an early delver and eventually enlightened tutor for the game winning painter.

side:
out all moons, jaya, 1 welder
in: 4 firebolt, 1 bridge, 1 ratchet, blast

Round 7: Team America

Game 1 is classic TA where I get thoughtseized and hymned twice while a goyf does me in. Game 2 I firebolt a deathrite and establish a turn where I can tap top and draw a moon with blast and daze protection for the win. Game 3 I start laying out redundant bridges and moons to eat removal/counters. I stick a blood moon and firebolt his deathrite to lock it out.

side:
out: jaya, welder, 2 revoker, 1 top or something. don't remember
in: 4 firebolt, 1 bridge

Round 8: Werewolf Stompy (game of punts)

Game 1 I seriously thought he was on the mirror. I played a welder which he revoked. then he exiled ssg to play a magus to fix his mana. Jaya came down for him too and he pitched a hanweir watchkeep or something. I knew what was up then so I played a grindstone, played a recruiter nabbing a revoker for jaya. Then recruited for painter to win it. Game 2 I played turn 1 grindstone while he played chalice at 1 for his turn 2. I had a welder in hand so I recruited for manic vandal fearing a revoker on stone to all but lock me out. I ended up getting beat down before I could find a painter. Punt number 1. grab painter and win dumbass. Game 3 I kept a stacked hand of two lands, painter, revoker, manic vandal, blast, recruiter. I end up bricking on a third land for a bit but he has double revoker on grindstone. I get koth out and he attacks with the +3 +0 attackers werewolf to kill koth. I get a jaya out and double bridge and all but have the game locked up as I start killing stuff when he says

"shattering pulse with buyback"

I tilted like none other and missed an opportunity for the win when he swung with his team (trample werewolf with a sofai) to kill jaya. instead of chumping the smaller guy I just blocked with everyone and missed the chance to counterattack for the win. he had taken serious damage dismembering 2 painters earlier. Punted away day 2 because I got tunnel vision thinking that I had to combo win the game and not thinking after shattering pulse killed my bridges. To be fair he was really good with his deck and played really tight to all of his outs and got there.

side:
out 5 moons
in: vandal, bridge, koth, bomb, blast

Round 9: Merfolk

Not really caring anymore but having to wait through round 9 anyway for a friend I decided to play this round. I kept a really loose hand like blast, fetch, 2 ssg, bridge, recruiter, stone. he plays island vial turn 1 indicating folk. I enter yolo mode and cast bridge with no daze or force backup and it sticks. Proceed to win phase. Game 2 a resolved welder turn 1 just handled everything he tried to do.

side:
out 5 moons, 2 revoker
in: blast, bridge, 4 firebolt, vandal


Three things for everyone else:

1) My sideboard strategies differ wildly from being on the play to on the draw and I just felt like getting this up here first so if people are interested I can edit the board plans back in later on.

2) Thoughts on the correct TES play.

3) Pimp options. No foils/foreign due to English Rec being a boss


Going forward, IP is well positioned (as it always has been really) since it handles TNN the best in the entire legacy format. No game I played was a blowout which is a testament to IP in general plus the 'pre-boarded' build I decided on. I've been really impressed with enlightened tutor and the few times I saw it during the day it helped me win the next turn (except rug which had ancient grudge as always). While I wasn't able to day 2, 6-3 wasn't too bad.

-Kap

[GundamGuy]

More detailed update.

I played this list.

4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Blood Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Goblin Welder
1 Spellskite
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
3 Lightning Bolt

9 Mountain
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors


Sideboard


4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Manic Vandal
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Martyr of Ashes
1 Koth of the Hammer

I also had no byes so I was attempting to run the table as well.

Round 1 U/W Miracles

Game 1: Long grindy game, he had answers for me, I had answers for him. Got him down to 2 before an perfectly timed completely random Terminus saved the day. He managed to turn the tide and beat me from there.

Game 2: Long game, I get Koth out and get him up to 5, but am unable to attack due to an combo of Ensnaring Bridge (Likely bad sideboard decision) and an early wall of bodies keeping me from attacking) when my opponent EoT Enlightened Tutors for Pithing Needle and shuts me down. Ends up going to time.

0-1-1 (Loss) 0-1

Round 2 Elves

Game 1: My opponent must have kept a slow hand. I played out Grindstone on turn 1, named Wirewood Symbote with revoker and attacked a few times with SSG before drawing the mill win.

Game 2: I almost punted this game. I played a Blood Moon turn 2 or 3, and fetched an Maryter of Ashes on turn 2. This kept him defensive for awhile, but I was afraid that I was going to loose to Natural Order. I blew an maryter of ashes and attacked with a bunch of SSG's but still ended up losing.

Game 3: On the play I kept a turn two gindstone kill. Won.

2-1 1-1

Round 3 Shardless BUG

Game 1: I kept a hand with 3 Blood Moons, an Mountain, an Ancient Tomb, an Painter and a REB. Cast the first Blood Moon, and he floats 2 and Abrupt Decays it. Cast the second one into a Force. The third got me there. Then I blasted his tarmogoyf, and proceeded to beat face.

Game 2: I keep an hand with Magus of the Moon, it's discarded, and I turn 1 draw Magus of the Moon. Play Magus of the Moon and then win.

2-0 2-1

Round 4: Merfolk

Game 1: Take some damage but end up comboing off. Blasts keep me alive, untill I get to the combo.

Game 2: Same as Game 1.

2-0 3-1

Round 5: RUG Delver

Game 1: Ended up losing not exactly sure why, but I remember a well timed bolt on Goblin Welder being part of this match.

Game 2: Ended up combo killing him. Brought in Ensnaring Bridge... however not sure this was right. My opponent suggested that Blood Moon is better as they have no basics and can't kill you with only Red.

Game 3: Same Ensnaring Bridge nonsense. Bridge got destroyed and I lost. (Might have been better to be on the Moon Plan)

1-2 3-2

Round 6: Sneak and Show

Game 1: I cast painter he forces pitching misdirection after showing me an Volcanic Island. I put him on painter, and drop a Revoker on Sneak Attack next turn. He ponders a bunch but concedes when I get him to 14 and he's not cast anything of not yet.

Game 2: I keep an hand with Revoker, Name Sneak Attack and go on the beat down plan. Again never casts Show and Tell, though I had Bridge in Hand and a Blast back to fight over it, so I think I was in the clear anyway.

2-0 4-2

Round 7: Burn

Game 1: I turn 1 Blood Moon, he plays a mountain and suspends rift bolt. =( Not even close.

Game 2: Double Thorn slows him down enough for me to combo win.

Game 3: I get a Thorn out, but it doesn't buy enough time for me to pull though.

1-2 4-3 (I drop and go get food)

Overall I liked my deck, and I think I made a few mistakes... but overall not a bad showing. A little frustrated that I ran into burn in Round 7.... =(

[jandax]

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae278/jkitch44/photo_zps028ded29.jpg

-Kap

Sweet. I'm missing one English Recruiter myself. As far as non Eng/Foil pimp, what I do is just get the oldest version of the card in English as possible. THat's my kind of pimp, Beta lands and Blasts, Dark Blood Moons, etc. Maybe you just need to get the whole deck altered? At Strasbourg I played against a guy with UR Painter that was totally altered, looked friggin' sweet.

[Imperial]

Nice job guys! Always good to see some of us representing in the tournament scene. On another note, does anyone know if the lone Painter/Grindstone deck (Come on coverage guys, be more specific) that made day 2 was U/R or Imperial? I assume it was U/R painter, but I'm hoping that I'm wrong. :tongue:

[jandax]

Le bump

I dropped Thorn of Amethyst. Just not the kind of combo in my area to warrant four sideboard slots. Instead I'm running a Manic Vandal, likely much to the delight of a few posters here, and three Grafdigger's Cage. Cage is good against Elves, which I always have a problem against. It neuters their GSZ, Fetchlands for Arbor and Natural Order. All legit mechanisms that make the deck strong. Gonna play again after a break this coming saturday. Were I not missing a couple cards I'd run Sneak and Breach, that deck is the shiz

[Kap'n Cook]

For anyone who has tried the white splash:

Did you ever try out Ethersworn Canonist main? Obviously the biggest problems for us are the exponential decks (storm, elves, enchantress, tinfins) and having it main might steal some games just like bridges do. There is small upside utility vs decks that will try to remove painter in response to an activation since they only have 1 spell to cast and a blast solves that problem.

Just a thought I had and was curious if anyone has considered it.

[jandax]

I think you hit it on the head. It's like iPainter playing Bridge main. It's pre-sideboarding in a sense. I assume you run Tutor main, so as a one of in the MD it wouldn't be bad if it were to steal games.

[Kap'n Cook]

I think you hit it on the head. It's like iPainter playing Bridge main. It's pre-sideboarding in a sense. I assume you run Tutor main, so as a one of in the MD it wouldn't be bad if it were to steal games.

Yes, 2 tutors main. They've really been nice to have in 5 moon minimal list.
Canonist can be found by everything too. Recruiter, e tutor, and welder+stone.

But bridges main are just really nice. Against almost every deck they have am application, I'd argue they're better than maindeck burn too just because bridges can buy you so many extra turns

[jandax]

Agreed, I run two main. I'm pretty sure a the metagame looks now, it is best to set up the deck to be Prison with a combo kill.

And I have to admit I have been having a ton of fun with Sneak and Breach lately, gonna run that this weekend instead of iPainter. First time in a long time!

[Kap'n Cook]

Got stomped by Bryant on camera today in round 5 at Tales of Adventure. G1 was one turn from the win before a chrome mox got the black mana under a moon to win before I could grind next turn.

started 4-0 vs 2 uwr delver, goblins, and dredge.
lost to tes
beat miracles
lost to jund :(
punted team America to end the day with a mediocre record.



List was humming along perfect all day minus game 2 against Jund when I mulled to 5. Enlightened tutor was bad only once on the day, when it got stuck in my hand vs jund. he was able to draw some swamps and establish deathrites under a moon before I could sensei top find a grindstone.

uwr can't beat 7 blasts and 4 firebolts. jund is still hard

[Moomba]

I still say 4 lotus petals with enlightened tutor.

[Imperial]

To any of you who have tried out Spellskite-how was it? I'm currently reworking my Recruiter toolbox, and I'm trying to decide if I can fit it in main.

[Kap'n Cook]

I still say 4 lotus petals with enlightened tutor.

I do agree that lotus petal is nice having to consistently cast tutor, but SSG (I assume this is the slot you're comparing) gets so many free wins and tempo swings paying for dazes and monkey blasting. The benefits of being a creature to chump or attack a jace with are a big deal too. It is definitely not wrong to max the petals, though, I just don't know if I am willing to forgo the ssg upsides. Maybe a 3-2 ssg petal split should be tried.

Bridge main on the day stats: Locked out 1 uwr delver match and then found a moon to seal the game. Against dredge I kept welder, 2 moon, tutor, 3 lands. I was able to tutor for bridge and clear my hand fast enough to stabilize at 1 life before narcs could get me. Bought a ton of time in the Jund match but I didn't find the stone in time before Bob drew basics.

Anyone else been playing recently?


To any of you who have tried out Spellskite-how was it? I'm currently reworking my Recruiter toolbox, and I'm trying to decide if I can fit it in main.

Spellskite is love/hate. I don't really like running one because many times grabbing a painter/welder solves the same problems. The biggest exception is if you recruit it to protect a game ending moon from a floated decay/wear/golgari charm. I always loved naturally drawing spellskite. It just felt weird recruiting for one.

[Imperial]

I do agree that lotus petal is nice having to consistently cast tutor, but SSG (I assume this is the slot you're comparing) gets so many free wins and tempo swings paying for dazes and monkey blasting. The benefits of being a creature to chump or attack a jace with are a big deal too. It is definitely not wrong to max the petals, though, I just don't know if I am willing to forgo the ssg upsides. Maybe a 3-2 ssg petal split should be tried.

Bridge main on the day stats: Locked out 1 uwr delver match and then found a moon to seal the game. Against dredge I kept welder, 2 moon, tutor, 3 lands. I was able to tutor for bridge and clear my hand fast enough to stabilize at 1 life before narcs could get me. Bought a ton of time in the Jund match but I didn't find the stone in time before Bob drew basics.

Anyone else been playing recently?



Spellskite is love/hate. I don't really like running one because many times grabbing a painter/welder solves the same problems. The biggest exception is if you recruit it to protect a game ending moon from a floated decay/wear/golgari charm. I always loved naturally drawing spellskite. It just felt weird recruiting for one.

Fair enough. I'll test around a bit with it.

[jandax]

Guys, I've jumped ship!

Been toying with Sneak and Breach and it's been a friggin' ton of fun.

Regarding painter questions;

Spellskite is indeed love/hate. It solves problems one might have if they are running into a lot of UWr Delver/Zoo/other things with tons of spot removal. It soaks up a removal spell and blocks a portion of their team. But it's still a card, and at least two life activation. It's better to just have extra business. And I'm still a proponent of main deck Bridges. At least in my area, UWr Delver and Elves are increasingly popular decks, both of which are tough matches for Painter, and having a few outs MD dramatically increases the odds of the matchup. And as far as sweepers go, I'm impressed with Sudden Demise. however, my only gripe is that it doesn't nail Phyrexian Revoker, which is an important card in the DnT match.

[Ish]

Guys, I've jumped ship!

Been toying with Sneak and Breach and it's been a friggin' ton of fun.



Aw man... You joined the dark side.

I played sneak & show, UR omni-petals, and mono blue Omnitel; in combination for over a year. I jumped from that to painter (mono red, now playing UR). I just couldn't find it fun anymore. SnT is extremely powerful, but just very few options and decisions to be had.

Painter decks (both variants) give you so many different lines of play, both involving the combo and not. I bet we'll see you back here soon enough!

However, I'm not a deck snob... So if you're havin fun with it... AWESOME, that's what it's all about. Glad to see you still commenting here as well.

In a more meta related discussion. It appears that sneak and show is slowly becoming the only strong combo choice in a world full of delver/TNN tempo decks. How is mono red treating you guys? My UR variant feels aweful against UWR and like tempo decks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[jandax]

Aw man... You joined the dark side.

I played sneak & show, UR omni-petals, and mono blue Omnitel; in combination for over a year. I jumped from that to painter (mono red, now playing UR). I just couldn't find it fun anymore. SnT is extremely powerful, but just very few options and decisions to be had.

Painter decks (both variants) give you so many different lines of play, both involving the combo and not. I bet we'll see you back here soon enough!

However, I'm not a deck snob... So if you're havin fun with it... AWESOME, that's what it's all about. Glad to see you still commenting here as well.

In a more meta related discussion. It appears that sneak and show is slowly becoming the only strong combo choice in a world full of delver/TNN tempo decks. How is mono red treating you guys? My UR variant feels aweful against UWR and like tempo decks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

That's specifically why I'm not playing SnT. The mono red version is a deck full of cards no one has seen or played against in umpteen years. But I digress, this isn't the appropriate thread...

It seems to me that if SnT and TNN decks are the next wave of tier one decks, cards like Blood Moon and Ensnaring Bridge will be main deck houses. I'm even thinking of straying from Big Red back to iPainter because of that, at least for the yearly Legacy Championship this sunday. Both the aforementioned cards are houses against appropriate decks. All their mana base are belong to Blood Moon. And I think Ensnaring Bridge is one of the only real answers to TNN/SnT critters the deck can afford. I'm going to work up a list for the champs this sunday and post it here for scrutiny. I'm quite familiar with all the good decks in the format so most of my "testing" will come down to perceiving the correct card choices.

[Ish]

Ah... Big Red. I tested that too... cool, but yes back on topic.


So... I agree that mono red might be the better painter deck in this meta. Seems like everyone forgot about blood moon again (so soon). And ensnaring bridge is absolutely the best SnT answer.

So... whats the new "core" look like now you think. I think MB bridge needs to be an auto include right now. Also is 7 moon the minimum now in this meta?

[rancOr_]

I'm playing this atm:

9 mountain
4 scalding tarn
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 SSG
4 painter
4 grindstone
3 SDT
2 ensnaring bridge
2 koth
4 imperial recruiter
4 blood moon
2 magus of the moon
1 jaya
1 welder
2 phyrexian revoker
4 pyroblast
2 REB
---------------
4 thorn of amethyst
3 mindbreak trap
2 phyrexian revoker
2 ensnaring bridge
1 manic vandal
3 sudden demise

Maindeck ensnaring bridge works good. Also nice together with the koths.. Sudden Demise is better then pyroclasm because vs elves,DxT etc u wont kill ur own creatures obviously. There are some situations where pyroclasm would be better (revokers, delver/sfm together) but it can also combo with painter on color X'(blue).
Playing again this weekend, will report findings.

Greetz-

[GundamGuy]

Is main Deck Ensnaring Bridge really were we want to be?

Isn't Blood Moon better in most cases? Can UWR Delver beat a resolved Blood Moon? I mean they can't actually win, but the lightning bolts make it hard for you to win too... so perhaps having something which protects your win condition seems good (Extra Welders, Spellskite)

Maybe something like Boil is good now?

[Imperial]

Ah... Big Red. I tested that too... cool, but yes back on topic.


So... I agree that mono red might be the better painter deck in this meta. Seems like everyone forgot about blood moon again (so soon). And ensnaring bridge is absolutely the best SnT answer.

So... whats the new "core" look like now you think. I think MB bridge needs to be an auto include right now. Also is 7 moon the minimum now in this meta?

I've seen people go below 7 and done ok. Not sure what the general consensus is on how many moon effects should be played, but 6 seems like an optimal number right now.

[Kap'n Cook]

@gundamguy

Ensnaring bridge is awesome in the main. Most decks him just aren't prepared for it and even if they are packing answers, it takes at least a turn or two to switch gears and blow it up. A list of decks that can't beat it game 1:
Sneak/show
Non flayer dredge
Rug if you have a safe life total
Uwr if you have a safe life total
Elves without art hate main (drite pings could get there I guess)
Merfolk

Another big plus is it wraps up the game after you moon lock someone and they managed to sneak a threat or two in. It is pretty annoying to lock a team America player only to brick on draws and have their one stupid delver flip and kill you.

Regarding moons: 6-7 will certainly prey on a ton of decks and is probably correct. I still like 5 solely because Canadian and uwr pack bolts and I hate going in on a magus. Plus e tutor helps so virtual copies of moons if I want them stand at 11 with recruiter too. And just because I like a ton of flexibility and space is tight.

Besides those two decks though, blade is huge and 7 moons will utterly destroy them. Deathrite=pure greed. A 4 color deck with wasteland and no loam? C'mon.

[zangoasyl]

Kap'n Cook, do you mind posting your most recent list with white splash? The last list you posted had only 59 cards (and only 19 lands?) and you recently suggested to use 5 Slots for SSG/Lotus Petal and possibly a Canonist main - what did you cut in order to achieve that?

It really is a pity Bryant was so lucky against you with his topdecking...

[Kap'n Cook]

Kap'n Cook, do you mind posting your most recent list with white splash? The last list you posted had only 59 cards (and only 19 lands?) and you recently suggested to use 5 Slots for SSG/Lotus Petal and possibly a Canonist main - what did you cut in order to achieve that?

It really is a pity Briant was so lucky against you with his topdecking...


That's my bad. In the gp list I posted the missing slot is a lotus petal. I haven't tested out canonist in the main yet. I'm still working on the board for now and I think I have if where I want it. For reference the current list:

4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
3 bloodstained mire
1 wooded foothills
1 great furnace
2 plateau
5 mountain

4 recruiter
4 painter
4 ssg
3 welder
2 revoker
1 jaya
1 magus

4 blood moon
4 grindstone
3 sensei top
2 e bridge
1 lotus petal
4 pyroblast
2 reb
2 e tutor

Sb:
4 firebolt
3 crypt
1 reb
1 ratchet bomb
1 koth
1 manic vandal
1 trinisphere
1 canonist
1 e bridge
1 thorn

The only change was cutting a crypt for the thorn. I realized I wanted something I could tutor for that I could lay turn 2 if I didn't have a third mana available or had to use a petal and didn't have white ready for canonist. Basically the situation that occurred in g2 on camera. There's a strong argument that I should have gotten painter or revoker instead of sphere but I'm dumb.

Taking out a crypt doesn't sit great with me as I never want to lose to grave decks, but with 3 welders I basically get unlimited crypts if I draw one or have an e tutor. So that's a change I'm okay with for now.


The canonist main plan would most likely involve shaving an ssg for a petal, so a 3-2 split which makes welder better but decreases the surprise factor. It also alleviates the slightly awkward times you have a turn 1 play and want to eot tutor. I have no idea what to cut because I'm not dropping below three welders so maybe a bridge? Jaya is tempting with all the tempo but whenever I move her to the side I regret it and get paired against mud/enchantress.

So that's the long answer to your question. The short one is I can't decide yet about canonist, but this is how my thought process is going. I really like this 74 (the 4th ssg vs 2nd petal the only debated slot) so more playing and tweaking is in store.

Any comments or ideas?

[jandax]

Move a Revoker to the side, and don't shave any acceleration.

You still have six tutors for it maindeck and you get to have your cake and eat it too

[Kap'n Cook]

Jandax you are probably correct. Revoker has similar functions to jaya and the second might be superfluous. I could even run a 61st card main to fit the 4th crypt back side but going to 61 always leaves a bad taste despite the small statistical hit lol.

What's an up to date mono red list look like these days?

[jandax]

Off the top of my head I would run this mono R list:

4 Recruiter
4 Painter
4 SSG
1 Jaya
1 Revoker
2 Magus

4 Stone
3 Top
3 Magma Jet
3 Bridge
6 Blasts
4 Moon
1 Petal

8 Mountain
4 R Fetch
8 Sol Lands

Side:
3 Sudden Demise
1 Bridge
4 Grafdiffer's Cage
1 Jaya
2 Revoker
1 Vandal
3 Thorn

THe only big changes, for me, at least, are 3 MD bridges and Grafdigger's Cage as GY hate. Cage also shores up the Elves matchup, which I find quite unpleasant. Sudden Demise is also a sweet card, keeps your board in tact.

[Stils1]

Hi guys! This is my first post.
I've been playing legacy for 5 years. My first deck was UR Painter and after that I've playing everything from lands.dec to Belcher, but I've always loved Painter-Grindstone decks.
I live in area with no LGS and no legacy scene nearby, so I rarely go to tournaments. The finnish legacy champs is an annual tournament that I try to participate.
I finally got Recruiters and took the following pile to tournament a week ago:

4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Blood Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Goblin Welder
1 Spellskite
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
3 Lightning Bolt

9 Mountain
4 Fetch lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors


Sideboard

4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Manic Vandal
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Koth of the Hammer

I went 3-3-1. I won ANT, Esper Deathblade and URWdelver, lost to U/W Blade, Belcher and BUG. Match against Death & Taxes ended in draw after time. Deck worked fine and had lots of fun with opponets saying "mountain go" and slamming BB Duals or foil fetches on table under Moon. I wished more than once that I'd have played Bridges in maindeck. Bridge and Moon on the table autowins many games in current meta.

Faerie Macabre is on the sideboard because I wanted GY hate that can be tutored. Didn't need it much though.

I'll start preparing for the GP Paris and will be taking iPainter for a ride there.

[Imperial]

Hi guys! This is my first post.
I've been playing legacy for 5 years. My first deck was UR Painter and after that I've playing everything from lands.dec to Belcher, but I've always loved Painter-Grindstone decks.
I live in area with no LGS and no legacy scene nearby, so I rarely go to tournaments. The finnish legacy champs is an annual tournament that I try to participate.
I finally got Recruiters and took the following pile to tournament a week ago:

4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Blood Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Goblin Welder
1 Spellskite
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
3 Lightning Bolt

9 Mountain
4 Fetch lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors


Sideboard

4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Manic Vandal
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Koth of the Hammer

I went 3-3-1. I won ANT, Esper Deathblade and URWdelver, lost to U/W Blade, Belcher and BUG. Match against Death & Taxes ended in draw after time. Deck worked fine and had lots of fun with opponets saying "mountain go" and slamming BB Duals or foil fetches on table under Moon. I wished more than once that I'd have played Bridges in maindeck. Bridge and Moon on the table autowins many games in current meta.

Faerie Macabre is on the sideboard because I wanted GY hate that can be tutored. Didn't need it much though.

I'll start preparing for the GP Paris and will be taking iPainter for a ride there.

Congrats man! Glad you like the deck. To be honest, I think a single Macabre isn't really enough to deal with some of the more graveyard reliant decks. I'd try to find room for a Crypt or two; decks like Dredge and the like will definitely show up in larger events.

[jandax]

The reason Macabre is sub par is because most GY decks run black, and thus discard. If you go IR>Macabre, they can easily strip it because they have information on what's in your hand. Just run crypts, or even Grafdigger's Cage, that card helps out in the Elves matchup which isn't favorable.

[sroncor1]

The problem with the fairie isn't that it is can be discarded. It's the fact that it's just really too little. Anything less than 4 plus graveyard hate spots is worthless. You really are just better running none at that point. It doesn't matter against dredge, it does not help against Eldrazi and it doesn't even really matter against aggro decks. Where it is good would be if you could push it through against reanimator decks. It is really strong where you need to blank a single target to buy a few turns. Reanimator is the only deck that fits that description. And to be honest if you want a tutorable target for against reanimator stingscorger may actually be better.

Maybe occasionally it will blank dredge and a dread return but really it you are wasting a tutor on hitting one of their cards you probably aren't going to win that game as they can do a pretty fast slow roll. I was going to make a post about sideboarding and tutoring in general so I'll try and post more later.

Seth

[lambert101]

After looking at this thread and hatting my audible to miracles for GP DC I decided to rework Soviet Control (aka mono red ipainter). Going to try the following list:

4 Recruiter
4 Painter
4 SSG
1 Jaya
1 Spellskitte
2 Magus

4 Stone
3 Top
4 Lighting Bolt
3 Bridge
6 Blasts
4 Moon


8 Mountain
4 R Fetch
8 Sol Lands

Board:
3 Pyroclasm
1 Bridge
1 Jaya
2 Revoker
4 Thorn
2 Blast
2 Bomb



This is basically Jandax latest with a few changes for personal preference. I have a love-hate relationship with magma jet that comes down to the 2 mana cost.

[Imperial]

Imperial painter top 8s Vegas!

[Kap'n Cook]

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/2350_quarterfinals_ricky_sidher_vs_.html

He lost because he is bad. Classic amateur mistake there at the end

[jandax]

"Soviet Control"

That's fucking awesome.

Edit:

Good lord, that Top 8 is an iPainter wet dream. Should not have lost.

[Kap'n Cook]

"Soviet Control"

That's fucking awesome.

Lol that is really sweet. Splashing white I may have to go with Team Tunisia or something along those lines. Pretty dope flag too.

http://www.diethneis-sxeseis.gr/site/images/stories/big_flags/Tunisia_Flag.gif

[jandax]

I crashed and burned yesterday in the yearly Legacy champs with SNeak and Breach. The deck is just so much fun but so bad, SnT is simply the better option but I refuse to join that herd of mouthbreathing booger eaters. Back to Painter it is until they design a two mana red Brainstorm. The whole room would have been soft to Blood Moon, shame...

I just wish I was in the SCG top 8, would have been a cake walk. Only a couple basic lands outside of Delver itself? Nom

[Imperial]

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/2350_quarterfinals_ricky_sidher_vs_.html

He lost because he is bad. Classic amateur mistake there at the end

Agreed. Even with FOW being so huge in the format, it's never a good idea to name blue with painter without having blasts or jaya. Even then, it doesn't hurt to be careful.

[japz]

I've been following this thread for a while and took a modified version of Kap'n Cook's list to the unofficial Dutch Legacy championships which was attended by about 90 players. I didn't start out too great, picking up losses in rounds one and two, but was able to squeeze a 4-3 out of it in the end.

Round 1:
Versus combo Elves. In game1 she combos out on turn 3, before I really get anything going. I don't think combo elves is a particularly good match-up, so my plan for game 2 was to hope to slam a turn 1 blood moon effect. This worked out, but for game 3 I took out the blood moons since they're not that good versus elves on the draw. Lost game 3 when she started drawing her entire deck on turn 2.
0-1

Round 2:
Versus Sneak and breach. Again a match-up that's not that great. I probe on turn 1 and see what he's playing. Luckily I had my one-of Ensnaring Bridge in my opener and stuck it on turn one after seeing what he was playing ("main deck Ensnaring Bridge. really!?"). I board out the moons and grindstones for a Ensnaring bridges, Koths, the last revoker and a few Thorns. In games 2 and 3 I played an early revoker on sneak attack, but he had through the breach.
0-2. Losing confidence now, should I just have brought Esper Stoneblade?

Round 3:
Versus Tin Fins. I keep a mountain + top hand on the play that is pretty good with another land. When I fail to find my second land with the top activation I scooped in response to his Gitaxian Probe (maybe I shouldn't keep those one land + top hands...). As he played a friend of mine in the previous round I knew what he was playing, so I could sideboard for game 2 accordingly. In game 2 I probe and see the coast is clear for a turn 1 blood moon. In game 3 I luck out. He's able to remove my early Thorn of Amethyst, but manages to find only land after that.
1-2. Got lucky there.

Round 4:
Sneak and Breach again! In game 1 he wasn't too fast and I was able to tutor up the Ensnaring Bridge in time. I also won game 2 on Ensnaring Bridge, as apparently he didn't have any sideboard answers to it!
2-2.

Round 5:
Merfolk! In game one I finally combo out early. In game 2 I board in my additional blasts and bridges and board out the blood moons. I locked him with Ensnaring Bridge early, but finishing the game took an additional 20 minutes of fighting over pithing needles and through a bunch of countermagic. After the match finished he told me he didn't have an answer to a resolved bridge.
3-2

Round 6:
ANT. On the draw in game one, he combos on turn 2. He did not have mana for Duress, so he did not know what I was playing. Game 2 I win with a Thorn and a revoker on lotus petal. In game 3 he makes a mistake and walks into the magus of the moon (he knew my hand from the previous turn Thoughtseize and should have held up abrupt decay).
4-2

Round 7:
Grixis pyromancer/delver. I can't remember if I lost this one 0-2 or 1-2. I do remember he took my hand apart with Cabal Therapy in the games I lost.
4-3

Conclusion:
I was very impressed with the main deck E-bridge. Some decks just can't win if you play it in game 1. The tutor package felt fine, but I wasn't satisfied with the number of white sources in the deck. I think I'll play another fetch land over the 5th mountain next time. The two Gitaxian Probes I added were also great. The deck functions like a control/prison deck a lot of the times and the probe really helps in building that prison, especially if it can tell you what to E-tutor for. Of course it can also tell you if you can combo safely.
Blood Moon wasn't great for me this weekend as I faced a lot of mono-colored decks. I think this might be due to the local nature of this particular tournament. I think I'll still maindeck 4 blood moons and a magus at GP Paris.



The list:
Creature (18)
2x Goblin Welder
4x Imperial Recruiter
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1x Magus of the Moon
4x Painter's Servant
2x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Simian Spirit Guide

Instant (8)
2x Enlightened Tutor
4x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast

Sorcery (2)
2x Gitaxian Probe

Land (19)
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
1x Great Furnace
5x Mountain
2x Plateau
4x Scalding Tarn

Artifact (9)
1x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Grindstone
1x Lotus Petal
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantment (4)
4x Blood Moon

Sideboard (15)
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Koth of the Hammer
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Pyroclasm
2x Red Elemental Blast
4x Thorn of Amethyst

[comeback]

Just a question, which are advantages regarding Chandra maindeck with 3 Sensei's vs:

- white splash & etutor
- gamble or faithless & welders
- 4 mountain & 5 fetch to maximize shuffling effects

[jandax]

Don't play Chandra, and play any one of those three options over her?

[Kap'n Cook]

Hey japz nice work in that tourney. Only merfolk was a good matchup and going 4-3 when 1-6 would not be unheard of is pretty good.

The number of white sources has also been a slight concern of mine. What I've been doing is running a marked ssg to see when the 2nd petal would be better. If you want to assist me in the data collection we can get a better picture of what's best. Just run a foil/upside down/markered etc monkey and note which would be better. I also figure with your build with 2 probes the petal could help save two life every now and then


Regarding Chandra this is my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt because I have never played her:

1) Over e tutor and white pros/cons.

You get a better control matchup. Source of repeatable card advantage. You also get a slightly better deathblade matchup to ping bobs and lilianas etc. I think it takes building around either a) you need lots of bridges to hide under to take advantage of the 0 ability or an aggro build to remove blockers with the 1. Either way you need lighting bolts in the deck since copying blast won't always be relevant if you ultimate. White gives you more game against the unfair matchups by finding grindstone or sideboard hate. It also lets you dodge discard (esp good getting a moon). Running plateaus opens you up to wasteland more and massacre lol (yes. This happened to me)

2) faithless/gamble.

Attempts to make the manabase more resilient while keeping the 'tutor' ability. Faithless also has game against control because you pitch useless stuff as you go. Both need a stronger welder commitment, esp gamble for obvious reasons. If the discard wasn't random or it read: as an additional cost discard a card, search your library for a card and put it in your hand I would ditch the white and run my welder build. It'd be awesome but oh well. Chandra pluses mentioned above are the same. Faithless also allows to run a much lower curve since you need welders. Also slightly weaker to deathrite

3) fetches and tops

Most run this anyway. Usually if you're not running tutors/lootings or Chandra's you run some magma jets to help the consistency. Moons obviously mess up the filtering of fetches so I'd advise against only 3 tops as filter/search/scry/whatever even with grindstones ability to help


Hope this helps. I may be wrong so anyone with Chandra experience may want to weigh in

[japz]

Hey japz nice work in that tourney. Only merfolk was a good matchup and going 4-3 when 1-6 would not be unheard of is pretty good.

The number of white sources has also been a slight concern of mine. What I've been doing is running a marked ssg to see when the 2nd petal would be better. If you want to assist me in the data collection we can get a better picture of what's best. Just run a foil/upside down/markered etc monkey and note which would be better. I also figure with your build with 2 probes the petal could help save two life every now and then

Thanks. Yeah sure, I'll mark one of my SSGs. I don't get to play legacy very often though, maybe once per month, so it may take a while before I report back. :)
I'll play a 5th fetchland for sure, so that should also help.

I tried the Chandras at the Legacy warmup @ GP Antwerp and didn't like it at all. In that slot I want a card that can win me the game (e.g. when grindstone is no good), not one that can occasionally get me some card advantage or maybe clean up some dark confidants. For the main legacy event on Sunday I just ran the 2 Koths, which I was much happier with (I've moved them to the sideboard though to be used strictly as alternate win-con, in favor of the Tutor+bridge package).

[Ish]

Took UR painter out for a run this weekend. Not a great showing. Best cards of the day: blood moon and bridge (MB bridge, SB moons). Shoulda just been playing mono red with all that hate main!

Gonna come back to the iPainter side!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[jandax]

Blue in Painter is like having training wheels and going mountain biking.

Welcome back!

I'm testing out a new(er) configuration, will share when I think it's up to par

[Sinkhole]

I´ve thoughted of building up Painters as an alternative choice to my Storm Decks. Maybe RUG would be better, but I love playing Combo and Painters seems like a lot of fun to play. I sway between U/R and the more popular R/W list. Is Imperial Painter really better than Painter Grindstone or is it meta depending? In which of the to versions should I invest, if I want to get out long term value from it?

[Kap'n Cook]

I´ve thoughted of building up Painters as an alternative choice to my Storm Decks. Maybe RUG would be better, but I love playing Combo and Painters seems like a lot of fun to play. I sway between U/R and the more popular R/W list. Is Imperial Painter really better than Painter Grindstone or is it meta depending? In which of the to versions should I invest, if I want to get out long term value from it?


I'll try to answer without bias as best I can, given that this is the Imperial thread. The most popular version is straight mono red. There are a few of us that have taken up the white splash, but not enough people play it in large tournaments to get the lists publicized. Mono red is definitely just as good, they just cater to different styles.

Onto your real question. Both decks are viable. As long as legacy plays dual lands and as long as blue remains a dominant color, Imperial has strong game. UR has a much better unfair deck matchup and much better tutoring. Imperial relies on disruption and stalling until you can win. Imperial also has realistic plan b options in beatdown or control using blasts should the combo fail or if its taking a while to find the stone, which can be a problem for red sometimes. Intuition, transmute artifact, and brainstorm in UR will find you the missing piece every time while recruiter will find you a creature to assist the current board state.

Since you are coming from a storm background, UR probably fits your playstyle more. Imperial is closer to goblins, death and taxes, and maverick on the spectrum while UR is closer to storm and sneak show. Obviously I prefer Imperial Painter for the varied games you get and the multiple angles of attack it provides. One game you might just blood lock turn 1. Another will see you hiding under a bridge jaya burning. Beating down with simian spirit guides. Chaining recruiters to nullify terminus etc. UR is much more about solving a puzzle and using the tutors and search to find the protection and pieces needed to beat the opponents gameplan, a lot like storm. As far as which version you should invest I don't know, because I don't have too much experience with UR, I just know the basic strengths and weaknesses. Ish has played both and you probably want to ask someone like merfolkopt in the painted stone thread their opinion too. Both are good choices, it just comes down to how you prefer to win and taking the time to learn the intricacies.

[jandax]

It really does begin with asking yourself a series of questions to find out what your play style is.

UR Painter is more akin to Show and Tell, but if you're playing UR might as well be playing Show and Tell because it is a bigger game and the deck is almost all the same cards.

Mono R painter is strong because it can lean heavily on Blood Moon wrecking the metagame. I'm more specialized with this deck, the others don't appeal to me. Blood Moon is a big game, and yet the deck has its weaknesses, mainly card filtering.

RW Painter is something Kap'n is good at, it's more consistent, but not as explosive as Mono R nor is it as controlling as UR.

[comeback]

This is my G & W splashed list designed with the following purposes:
- protect IP vs uncounterable removal as well as removal protected by CB-Top shell
- improve UW MU
- get a more solid list vs mono color Tier1 or Tier 1.5

I agree mono-red is still the more solid list but it doesn't fit in my meta mainly characterized by:
- UWr piloted by top player
- Elves close to 7% 1 out of 15
- Merfolk as per TNN release
- BUG and its uncounterable removal

If u want to have a fun test just have a look hereby:
http://deckstats.net/deck-3295588-ef489020016d8b6b09b80a8fb1391e1f.html

[jandax]

This is my G & W splashed list designed with the following purposes:
- protect IP vs uncounterable removal as well as removal protected by CB-Top shell
- improve UW MU
- get a more solid list vs mono color Tier1 or Tier 1.5

I agree mono-red is still the more solid list but it doesn't fit in my meta mainly characterized by:
- UWr piloted by top player
- Elves close to 7% 1 out of 15
- Merfolk as per TNN release
- BUG and its uncounterable removal

If u want to have a fun test just have a look hereby:
http://deckstats.net/deck-3295588-ef489020016d8b6b09b80a8fb1391e1f.html


Hmm, if this is your meta, Painter might not be the deck to play. However, I have had success verses similar decks in small LGS tournaments with mono red Sneak and Breach. Big game that wins through the midrange strategies that these decks use to win. And it's not very far off from Mono red, so it's a sweet build to have the cards for to shake things up and keep having fun.

[Sinkhole]

Thanks for your explanations Kap`n and Jandax, I think I ´ve understand the differences between
the single variants and their strenghts and weakness.

[sroncor1]

So I wanted to write a post about silver bullet tutor targets and some thoughts on general sideboarding.* I know many of these thoughts didn’t occur to me years ago, and if you would read the old painter thread I think I probably advocated for more of a tool box approach with the deck, but I think in many ways it is strategically the wrong decision.

Let’s take a look at Fairie Macabre for example.* For all my examples I will stick with thoughts on a mono red list as running e tutor opens up a much larger decision tree which may complicate the discussion.* The card is a tutorable form of grave hate. *For free at instant speed it lets you remove 2 cards while not limiting your graveyard uses.* In a decl built around a crappy 1/1 that gets other dorks with utility this would seem like the perfect card to throw one in the sideboard to cover graveyards and augment the deck and increased its utility.* However doing so actually severely weakens the deck.* For starters it is a bad form of graveyard hate,* removing just two cards hardly matters.* Yes against reanimator it may play well.* Against dredge, lands, anything with Knights, or any deck with a strong recursion element the card is weak on its own.* It can slow most of these decks down by a turn or two which is nice, but think about what you have to do to get that play.* You may be lucky to draw the one of, and in that situation it is a freebie and congrats.* But now if you actually use your recruiter to get the Fairie, you committed 3 mana and one of your tutors to slow those decks down.* This is great when you have redundant Imperial Recruiters and you need to set up the extra turn to combo off.* But the key here is that you already have the combo.* If you don’t have the combo you may buy a couple turns but the resources you spent, ie the mana, the tutor, and lost opportunity with the other cards in hand in not advancing your own board state and just losing more slowly.

*And here I hope I explained the danger in silver bullets.* They are good, but only if the stop a strong strategy or the fundamental strategy of a deck.* If the card had removed their whole graveyard, or stopped them from using the graveyard for the foreseeable future it would be worth using the mana and our own tutor, which would slow down the advancement of our board state, in order to severely attack their plan.* Loaming Shaman would be a perfect card that does this.* Unfortunately you would need to play green which is not what I am saying at all.*

There are very few if any silver bullets really worth running in the deck these days.* Now certain metas are more inbreed than others so this could change and shit like Spinal Villain may be playable there, but for the most part outside of an artifact hate card, which I still think Viashino Heretic is the best, you really should not run silver bullets to tutor.* E tutor changes the math a bit as you get Peacekeeper, and Cannonist(although to be fair I still think you should try to speed the deck up and make it more consistent against storm and not waste resources, mana, and time slowing them down), but overall using the Imperial Recruiter as a tool box is not the same as Survival or even Green Sun Zenith, although to be fair the tutor targets of Zenith basically fall under the strongly attacking a strategy.*

I am not saying singletons are bad, just that the way you approach the tutor targets should probably change.* I think your best chance of success is to use sideboard cards that compliment your combo.* You can attack decks with cards that do not play into your combo.* And save the tutor targets for those cards that basically are counter or I basically shit on your deck.

Seth

[spector14]

Hi guys! About me I think this list deserves special attention! look what plays in 3x (sorcery) and tell me what you think!

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=12383&iddeck=90736

[Zorker]

Random question, how do you win against SnT round 1 since you cant mill them? by beating them?

[jandax]

Main deck Ensnaring Bridge, and then Dork beatdown or Jaya/PS

[Zorker]

ty jandax

[rancOr_]

Hi,

My brother took my deck to the Dutch Legacy Championship(89pple) and split top4.
r1 2-0 merfolk
r2 2-0 goblins
r3 1-1 uwr delver
r4 2-1 shardless bug
r5 0-2 jund
r6 2-1 bug delver
r7 2-1 sneak attack
qf 2-0 uwb control

Same list as posted before. I made some small changes now: +1 ensaring bridge, -1 phyrexian revoker md. Sideboard -1 mindbreak trap +1 REB
9 mountain
4 scalding tarn
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 SSG
4 painter
4 grindstone
3 SDT
3 ensnaring bridge
2 koth
4 imperial recruiter
4 blood moon
2 magus of the moon
1 jaya
1 welder
1 phyrexian revoker
4 pyroblast
2 REB
---------------
4 thorn of amethyst
2 mindbreak trap
3 phyrexian revoker
1 ensnaring bridge
1 manic vandal
1 red elemental blast
3 sudden demise

I feel really good where the decks at now. The current meta seems very friendly to Imperial Painter with alot of delver/stoneblade/combo.
Punishing Jund and Elves are obviously the harder MU's where u need to get t1/2moon or combo out fast to win.
Ensnaring bridge is mvp atm. Wouldn't change a thing about the MD for now, works good. I dont miss removal md at all, except for maybe decks with dark confidant/(drs). But after g1 u bring in sudden demise against these decks(bug delver,jund..) and the bug decks alrdy have troubles with fast moon anyway.

Greetings-

[GundamGuy]

ty jandax

If you are not playing Main Deck Bridge it can be tough, but here's what you need to do. You need to figure out they are on Show and Tell quickly. This likely means you have to hope they kept a slower hand that didn't have all the pieces. Second you need to sandbag your blasts to counter Show and Tell. Third you need to Revoker Sneak Attack. Then you go on the beat down path / Jaya path.

[rancOr_]

Random question, how do you win against SnT round 1 since you cant mill them? by beating them?
If you play some number of Ensnaring Bridge MD they cant ever beat it g1( and u can just play it from SxT too). By that I mean u should play MD bridge,;))

[Kap'n Cook]

Random question, how do you win against SnT round 1 since you cant mill them? by beating them?

You come to terms with the fact that you've been out-metagamed so that when they cast show and tell you concede the match on the spot, take it as a moral victory, and grab some food.

[Imperial]

Hey guys. I'd like some feedback on a list I'm brewing, which splashes white for a stoneforge/tutor package. Here:

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Great Furnace
4 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau
1 Plains
6 Mountain

4 Imperial Painter
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Goblin Welder

2 Lotus Petal
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Grindstone
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Blood Moon
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Enlightened Tutor

Sideboard is still in development. I feel like I'm missing a few crucial elements to the list, so please feel free to post any comments or concerns about the list. Thanks!

[Ish]

IMO:
I would say stoneforge doesn't really fit the game plan of the deck. Beat down should be a backup plan... Stoneforge takes up already tight spots in the deck.

If it's creatures you're worried about (why you would want jitte / bskull) then MB E.Breidge is the way to go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[sroncor1]

Jack( Kapn) has been doing a great job championing the white splash these days and has had some solid success with it.* I figured it was timeI posted my updated list.* Its similar to Jack’s except I have continued to use the old tech from circa 96/97 where everyone built decks with 61 cards.*

4 Imperial Recruiters

4 Painters Servent

4 SSG

2 magnus of the Moon

2 Goblin Welder

1 Jaya Ballard

1 PeaceKeeper

4 Grindstone

1 lotus petal

3 SDT

4 blood moon

7 blast effects

3 enlightened tutor

2 Koth

8 sol lands

5 fetches( onslaught of course

2 plateau

4 mountains

Sideboard

4 Rest in Peace

1 helm of Obedience

4 firebolt

3 SoLS

3 Ensnaring Bridge

A few notes about the deck:

I love the current build.* Most recently Koth came back in as Jund went on the decline.* While Jund was big I ran an extra mountain and a Goblin Settler.* I still think the ability to have a tutorable LD spell that can carry equipment is huge and would love it someplace, and may switch out the Helm to have that moving forward.* But Koth has consistently been strong and he is even better in those match ups where Bridge shines, and having a strong plan b has been nice.* That and he dick slaps Jace and Lilliana.* The Peacekeeper could be an Ensnaring Bridge, and I’m not sure which one is correct.* Effectively I have five copies of it in game one match ups where it matters, which is one more than the four that I would have with bridge.* There are downsides to both, so for now I am sticking with keeping another shitty 1/1 in the deck.* The equipment has really been strong for me.* In a world where Abrupt Decay is everywhere it is nice to be able to say no and also give the deck some reach and strengthen the agro play.* The protection is relevant and STP is really underplayed right now making it much stronger.* Firebolt is amazing right now and so much stronger than Lightning Bolt in the current meta.* The card advantage is so nice, and it allows you , especially with equipment to literally gain card advantage on delver decks which is funny when you think a red deck could get card advantage against a blue based deck.* Otherwise its fairly stock and I would feel comfortable moving a Koth out to add a petal, making the deck more explosive at a small cost of end game.* That would be a meta call I think, and if combo is huge where you are, be that tendrils, omni, and elves, then I recommend the 5 fast mana spells as the turn is worth more than the card to be honest.

As I have said in the past I will really not comment much on mono red anymore.* It has been probably three years since I last played it so I am sort of out of touch with the finer points of the deck.* I still highly recommend anyone picking up painter to try the white splash as I think it has the best game in a random meta, and the downside of the white splash is much lower then the upside and utility of E tutor which is woefully underplayed in legacy atm.

Moving forward I think every painter list should have 4-6 graveyard hate someplace.* Anything less is selling yourself short.* While I will never say dredge is a good deck as it is easily beaten, it does do broken shit.* Good graveyard hate can also allow you to beat Eldrazi which are still around and I think it is vital to give you a chance to make that match up above 50/50.* With my current build I def think that is the case and you will be able to outplay your opponent, and that is the key.* Like dredge, Sneak and show is intrinsically more powerful, but with tight play I have found that this list allows me the decisions to be able to win.*

I was talking to Jack and Cannonist probably has a place in the deck, although I am not sure where.* My preference is for Peacekeeper, and otherwise I don’t think white really has any other cards that are worth splashing for.*

In terms of red, especially mono red lists I think an LD card should basically be in your 77-78 cards that depending on the day you play could make your list.* Artifact removal is important and I will always think Heretic is the best option there, although I understand other options. I’m not sure metamorph has a place in the deck anymore, and I think you will have diminishing returns on Revoker in the current meta, although a Welder heavy version may be able to really abuse them.* Although if a good player is sitting across from you, they should know not to let you untap with a welder unless you are already in a losing position.*

Otherwise I would say that there is less variability in what is viable now then before.* In a defined meta things like looting and Chandra seem bad.* As does not having a Bridge in the main.* I think nine shuffle effects are needed at least to allow you to use SDT to get incremental gains on the card quality, and I think the 12 my version runs is perfect.

I hope this sheds some light on the white splash and I am happy to answer any questions you guys have.

*

Seth

[sroncor1]

Imperial- I ran a stoneforge splash years ago, back when team italia was a deck( although saying that now seems that a huge joke) and it was good. That was before sneak and show decks though. What decks are you thinking it will help against. It is strongest against decks with jace and lightning bolt so if your meta is infested with those the utility of the stoneforge package and having a sword and jitte in the board could be a boon. Although I would recommend using it out of the board and swapping it out for moon effects when on the draw or against decks that moon just isn't going to get there. Unfortunetly you don't have a deck that can really abuse it like stoneblade use to be able to. And batterskull is less good now in a world of deathrites and knights and that new blue guy I've been hearing so much about. Jitte and the swords are still awesome though, but at that rate you probably should just run more of the equipments especially with the legend rule. I think koth would probably be a better card at doing what you want anyway and just augment it with equipment out of the board. This way you can go back up to at least 6 blast effects which I think is the baseline unless nobody plays brainstorm where you live. Hope this helps. But if you do play stoneforge please run peacekeeper. Trust me

Seth

[Imperial]

Imperial- I ran a stoneforge splash years ago, back when team italia was a deck( although saying that now seems that a huge joke) and it was good. That was before sneak and show decks though. What decks are you thinking it will help against. It is strongest against decks with jace and lightning bolt so if your meta is infested with those the utility of the stoneforge package and having a sword and jitte in the board could be a boon. Although I would recommend using it out of the board and swapping it out for moon effects when on the draw or against decks that moon just isn't going to get there. Unfortunetly you don't have a deck that can really abuse it like stoneblade use to be able to. And batterskull is less good now in a world of deathrites and knights and that new blue guy I've been hearing so much about. Jitte and the swords are still awesome though, but at that rate you probably should just run more of the equipments especially with the legend rule. I think koth would probably be a better card at doing what you want anyway and just augment it with equipment out of the board. This way you can go back up to at least 6 blast effects which I think is the baseline unless nobody plays brainstorm where you live. Hope this helps. But if you do play stoneforge please run peacekeeper. Trust me

Seth

Thanks for the reply, Seth. Right now, my meta mostly consists of a few Delver variants, Stoneforge, and Miracles. Quite a few other decks pop up, but I'm not too worried about that. As you stated, I think the Stoneforge package will do well against the main opponents in my current meta. Now that you mention it, Peacekeeper seems like a fine choice to go along with the white splash. Heck, a team of Elves players sometimes show up, so I can definitely see its merits.

[Malchar]

I updated my old list as follows:
-1 magus of the moon
-4 blood moon
-3 magma jet
-1 lotus petal
-1 goblin welder
-1 simian spirit guide
-9 mountain

+4 stoneforge mystic
+1 batterskull
+1 umezawa's jitte
+3 enlightened tutor
+2 phyrexian revoker
+4 plateau
+5 fetchlands

Stoneforge has instantly been amazing. Jitte is the go-to equipment since it's easy to cast/equip, it provides a clock, and it also removes their threats. The upped revoker count is also great, although I often found myself wanting to name jitte to shut down my opponent's. I'm considering different equipments that I could use to avoid so much overlap with my opponents. Enlightened Tutor has been pretty nice since you can get grindstone, painter, or just a jitte, but if you have a hand with multiples then it's really hard to work through the loss of card advantage. The tutor also provides you with a lot of nice options in sideboarding.

I think that I'd like to try it with 1x magus of the moon and/or 1x blood moon as a tutorable silver bullet. I'll also be adding 4x Thalia to the 75, and probably at least 1x in the maindeck for tutoring. I liked the previous post about silver bullets, but I feel like blood moon and Thalia earned their spots. Faerie Macabre, on the other hand, is probably coming out.

I know that I used to advocate for Viashino Heretic, but I think that Manic Vandal might be better now because it is much better at dealing with an active jitte. The heretic is better in every other situation though and especially so against batterskull. If you have room, I would definitely run one of each.

[sroncor1]

I actually think if Jitte is your go to equipment the correct break down should be:

3 Jitte

1 Stoneforge

1 Batterskull

1 Goblin Welder

This way you are more efficient with the equipment you want.* Batterskull has lost most of its luster these days but it is still good so it is worth running in the right settings.* But I agree Jitte or a Sword should be the go to target most of the time.* In that setting why waste time with a shitty squire.* This way you have more opportunity to get the card you want, less dead draws( yes extra jittes are less good, but lets be honest if you have one on your side of the board you are probably winning), more efficient mana usage, and another way to recur them.* You still have Recruiter for Stoneforge for equipment play also by running one Stoneforge.* Although I do caution that I do think the package is stronger than the Moon package in the maindeck.

*

Imperial- even in that meta try Koth.* True name nemesis has really changed the effectiveness of batterskull, and that with Jace does make batterskull less good.* Batterskull, when paired with card advantage removal like Firebolt will def give you a leg up on Delver lists though so I get that.* Against Miracles and Jace decks Koth is probably better, as they really cant beat the card.* But to be honest you could run both, and if you use your E tutors, you could create room by cutting a few Bridges in the 75.*

Seth

[rancOr_]

@Seth: first off , really impressive list! I play mono R,but I can see the merits of a splash in certain metas. There's one thing that I think could be improved. I would play an ensnaring bridge over the Peacekeeper md as u mentioned.The decks where E. Bridge is really good against(uwr delver,rug delver,stoneblade variants,..) all play plenty of removal for the peacekeeper. And against elves,sneaky show,..peacekeeper/bridge are equally good I think. U can't recruiter it but then you can tutor it so it's only one less out. That being said by doing so u free up a slot in the sb, which I think is the perfect fit for a one off Ethersworn Canonist.Greetz

[sroncor1]

Yeah Bridge would be better in those match ups, and that is why I go back and forth. Peacekeeper is better against Elves as you have a better chance of having it in hand on turn two and a better chance of it being active turn two. However Bridge would cost less total mana to find it and cast it. Against Delver lists I would be ok with them killing her as that is one less removal spell for Painter and Welder and Koth which are all much stronger cards in that match up. But if I was to play the Bridge I think I would just move the Peacekeeper to board. Does that make sense? That is my thought process behind the choice although I am not sure it is the correct one.

Cannonist is the number two card I am trying to squeeze into the deck right now. Number one is Goblin Settler an I would also say that I am looking to possibly add another Lotus Petal. That isn't really for a white source so much as for another accelerant in general to the deck, and I hate Chome Mox anymore.

Seth

[jake556]

This deck is very new for me and I am truly only trying to get better with it so I have a few questions. Is there any reason to Play T1 Grindstone? Or do you ideally want to drop it when you have Painter out and 3 spare mana? Also not being familiar with playing Top what are some tricks to help me use it more efficiently, it always feels like I waste mana on it at the wrong time. I will play T1 top, T2 top in Upkeep and lose 1 mana when it might just be better to draw play a land and Top at the end of my opponents turn. One of the biggest problems I have with this deck is sideboarding Blasts/Jaya/Welder/Moon? What are some of the cards that you never side out no matter what deck your playing against. Is Manic Vandal that good? He is tutorable and a body but at 3 mana seems kind of expensive compared to other artifact hate. What kind of hands are just unkeepable?

Is there anyone that plays Painter on Cockatrice that I could maybe test to learn or watch you play sometime? Any help is appreciated thank you

[Imperial]

This deck is very new for me and I am truly only trying to get better with it so I have a few questions. Is there any reason to Play T1 Grindstone? Or do you ideally want to drop it when you have Painter out and 3 spare mana? Also not being familiar with playing Top what are some tricks to help me use it more efficiently, it always feels like I waste mana on it at the wrong time. I will play T1 top, T2 top in Upkeep and lose 1 mana when it might just be better to draw play a land and Top at the end of my opponents turn. One of the biggest problems I have with this deck is sideboarding Blasts/Jaya/Welder/Moon? What are some of the cards that you never side out no matter what deck your playing against. Is Manic Vandal that good? He is tutorable and a body but at 3 mana seems kind of expensive compared to other artifact hate. What kind of hands are just unkeepable?

Is there anyone that plays Painter on Cockatrice that I could maybe test to learn or watch you play sometime? Any help is appreciated thank you

More often than not, you will have a better turn 1 play, and Grindstone isn't relevant. Plus, it can pay off to disguise your deck as a stompy variant. As for side boarding, I almost never board out Recruiter, as it is in my opinion, the main theme/centerpiece of the deck. Just my 2 cents. I myself test on cockatrice quite often, but I've been having some technical issues lately, which is disappointing...

[jandax]

This deck is very new for me and I am truly only trying to get better with it so I have a few questions. Is there any reason to Play T1 Grindstone? Or do you ideally want to drop it when you have Painter out and 3 spare mana? Also not being familiar with playing Top what are some tricks to help me use it more efficiently, it always feels like I waste mana on it at the wrong time. I will play T1 top, T2 top in Upkeep and lose 1 mana when it might just be better to draw play a land and Top at the end of my opponents turn. One of the biggest problems I have with this deck is sideboarding Blasts/Jaya/Welder/Moon? What are some of the cards that you never side out no matter what deck your playing against. Is Manic Vandal that good? He is tutorable and a body but at 3 mana seems kind of expensive compared to other artifact hate. What kind of hands are just unkeepable?

Is there anyone that plays Painter on Cockatrice that I could maybe test to learn or watch you play sometime? Any help is appreciated thank you

There's no surefire way to say what you need to board in and out. One, we don't know your list. Two, we don't know your grasp on the decks you're likely to face.

One) Post your list! Most posters here are proponents of either mono R or the white splash. UR painter has its own thread.

Two) This is more important. You need to know tier one and two decks inside and out, not just main decks but sideboards as well. You will lose games because they side in a card you didn't consider and your answer is sitting in your deck box next to you. This is the hardest part. Study Study Study!

Then, when you have a firm grasp of the decks you'll likely face, you can turn to your own list and go over each matchup and say ''I have/don't have X when they have Y'' and ''Given Y, X in my maindeck/sideboard does or doesn't do what it should, therefore should come out/in''.

Only with an extensive background knowledge can you begin to correctly tweak cards to your metagame, and more importantly, make the correct sideboard decisions that'll shore up unfavorable matchups. The deck has answers to everything, from Emrakuls to Elves to Tendrils of Agony and everything in between. Play it to its strengths and your answers will more than likely trump their threats, because no deck metagames for iPainter. That's one of its biggest advantages. That and Blood Moon.

Love that card...

[Kap'n Cook]

There are a ton of questions here and possible answers regarding theory and sideboarding guides. There's really too much for one post so I'll stick with turn 1 on the play against an unknown opponent. I will assume you don't have access to two mana on turn 1, thus ruling out moons, painters, recruiter, or top plus spin. Lastly, I will assume mono red, so that fetch into eot enlightened tutor isn't an option.

For an average hand that isn't light on mana, here is my order of importance: welder>grindstone>top

Why? Welder is a tempo play. Many decks will need to use removal on it for their turn one in fear of welder becoming active over deploying a sensei too, delver etc. If they play a discard spell, your artifacts are relatively safe because welder will be active turn 2.

Welder and grindstone are both above top because of the possibility of a turn 1 chalice. Also, utilizing your mana and dropping the stone turn 1 allows the play of turn 2 painter off sol with a blast backup. Getting a grindstone our early also opens up the possibility that they decay it, which is good. Lastly, having a stone already in play for when you drop painter with mana available allows you to hold their removal hostage and 2-1 them

I'll usually only play top over the other two if I kept a good one land hand and need to find a second on upkeep


Edit: I think the only cards I always keep in no matter what is recruiter and ssg. I almost never go below 5 blasts and the only time you cut a painter or two is against R or UR painter. Everything else gets cut or shaved depending on matchup and whether you're on play or draw

[ravenklath]

Hello all,

I just discovered this Primer. And after browsing through the thread I see a lot of good info for this deck.


Here is my tournament report from GP: DC that i posted on my stores FB Page. I will post the list after

Rd1. Opponent: Donald.
Deck: Burn
Result: W 2-1

Game one I won via Grindstone Painter Servant Combo. On turn 4 because my opponent didn't use his suspended Rift Bolt to Kill my Painter Servant. Game two I lost to Sulfuric Vortex and not being able to find a way to kill him. Game three both are at 1 Life. I had been attacking with Phyrexian Revokers and Painter servant. I finally Use Sensi's Divining Top to hit a Lightning Bolt and kill him on his Upkeep.

Rd2. Opponent: Spencer
Table 277
Deck: Burn
Result: W 2-1

Game one ends the same way the first round does. Combo out. Game 2 I Mull to 6 then die quickly to bolt/chain/Fireblast. Game three I have A goblin welder in play with Grindstone after activation of grindstone on the stack before it resolves I switch control of it and a Painter servant in graveyard and name blue and he gets milled out. He debated calling a judge about the ruling on how that worked but chose not to.

Rd3. Opponent: Joe Lossett (Twitch Oarsman87)
Table 187
Deck: Miracles/Countertop
Result: W 2-0

Game one I win after fighting through 2 counterbalances after I destroyed his top. Used Welder to switch positions with Grindstone and Painter Servant again. Game two we both mull to 6 and I win after he isnt able to find a counter with Counterbalance. He uses Jace to target my Painter Servant to return it to hand I redirect to spellskite and then combo out.

Rd4. Opponent: Micheal
Table 119
Deck: Death and Taxes
Result: W 2-0

Game one I win turn 2 with Combo after Countering his Swords to Plowshares with a Pyroblast. Game 2 I mulled to 6 and lock him down with Ensnaring Bridge and find my combo to Win. He also attempted to equip a Sword of Fire and Ice with me having a Painter servant out naming blue and it just falls off because it gives protection from blue.

Rd5. Opponent: Yoel
Table 18
Deck: Death and Taxes
Result: W 2-1

Game one I win turn 2 with Combo after Countering his Swords to Plowshares with a Red Elemental Blast. Game two he lands Jitte and Well we all know how that ends if it gets out of hand. Game three I was a really tough game. He revokes my grindstone and I am unable to use it. I stick an Ensnaring Bridge and he cant attack as I keep 0 cards in my hand. I then go on the Beat stick plan and kill him with painter servants turning sideways.

Rd6. Opponent: David
Table 35 (was really Confused by this but I got paired down to a person who had a draw)
Deck: Shardless Bug
Result: L 0-2

Game 1 Goyf Goes off as I was unable to find a Blood Moon or a relic of progenitus early. Game 2 I die to a JTMS Ultimate as I had to mull to 4. Rough luck But my spirits were still high.

Rd7. Opponent: Ian
Table 81
Deck: RUG Delver
Result: W 2-1

Game 1 I almost lose to a flipped Delver but then top deck the Servant and activate my Grindstone. Counter the Stifle and he hand no way to counter my Pyroblast. Game 2 I lose to GOYF doing GOYF things we have all been there if you ever played against it. Game 3 I win to my opponent's misplay as he goes to ancient grudge my Ensnaring Bridge I redirect to Spellskite and he tapped his mana wrong not allowing himself to be able to flash it back and I then Exile it. He durdles a few turns as I Mill him two cards a turn until I hit his 2nd K-Grip and have two bridges out.

Rd8. Opponent: Bryan
Table 78
Deck: Death and Taxes
Result: L 1-2

Game one I win Via Stone as my opponent didnt know how my deck worked and was really confused. Game 2 Mull to 6 I lose to a Rishiadian Port Lock as when I finally hit the Grindstone I didn’t have enough mana to be able to activate without killing myself with Ancient Tomb. Game three well Jitte my arch-nemesis reappears and I wasn’t able to deal with it. Oh well So now I have to win round 9 in order to make it to day 2. This Kid also called my deck bad and played his D&T deck horribly. He had to ask a judge after the Match how my deck actually worked.

Rd 9. Opponent: Andrew
Table 113
Deck: Izzet Delver
Result: W 2-1

Well I win this and Im in No Pressure right? Haha OK so Game 1 he curves out quite quickly sticking a delver with a sword of Fire and Ice and kills me with it. Game 2 my opponent mulls to 6 I stick a turn 1 Blood Moon. He doesnt see a Basic until he is at 5 life. I attack each turn with whatever creatures I can and then double bolt him to finish him off. Game three well this is it win this and then I can get some sleep and get ready for Sunday. My opponent lands a delver but was unable to flip him for a long time. He pings me for 1 every turn until I hit an Ensnaring bridge. Which stops him from attacking. I then proceed to Mill him for 2 cards a turn due to me not finding a Painter servant. When I do I miss the trigger for naming a color and he makes me mill him the hard way. Oh well, I learned after the fact that if I would have called a judge he would have let me name a color. Live and Learn.

WOOT MADE IT TO DAY 2. Sleep like crap all night Wake up at 7 to get ready.

Rd10. Opponent: Gabriel
Table 46
Deck: Punishing Jund
Result: L 0-2

Game 1 I lose to Goyf and Punishing Fire. Cant stop it as when I finally hit the Blood Moon I was at 1 life. Game 2 Much of the Same except I mulled to 5 and then Liliana, Hymn and Thoughtseize Rip my hand apart.

Rd11. Opponent: Stu
Table 81
Deck: Unkown
Result: W 2-0

Opponent never Shows gets dropped from tournament or so I thought and he ends up ahead of me in the rankings. I will be contacting the DCI about this.

Rd12. Opponent:Jason
Table 67
Deck: Elves
Result: L 1-2

Game 1 Lose to Hoof on turn 3 We both mulled to 6. Game 2 my opponent scoops to Grindstone, Relic of Progenitus, and Painter Servant on Board. Game three I play turn one phyrexian revoker naming Heritage Druid. I then proceed to lose to Deathrite Shaman. (Enter Tilt Mode) If I would have named Deathrite I win. He ended up siding out all 4 Druids as well as 10 other cards. I mis-sideboard by taking out Blood Moon. Oh well! So now I have to win out to be in the Money.

Rd13. Opponent: Mike
Table 96
Deck: Omni-Tell
Result: L 0-2 Drop

Well He combos both games on turn 3 and plays Ants and well that was that.

Overall I learned a lot about my deck I never once sided in Thorn of Amethyst I feel maybe Trinisphere will be better in the future. But I also never played against Storm So I don't know. I had a card called Sirroco in my deck it was really good against burn. Not so good against the decks I wanted it against. Looking for a replacement. I Got to play Koth of the Hammer only once. However he got countered. I would Like to thank Paul for convincing me to play Mainboard Relic of Progetnitus. Lots of fun Playing this deck so that was good. I also learned a lot of people have no idea in how to play against my deck which was helpful. I was also the only Painted Stone Deck that Made it to day 2

[ravenklath]

Here is the Deck list I used at GPDC

Lands:
8 Sol lands
9 Mountains
3 Tarns

Creatures
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Imperial Recruiters (all i own)
1 Spellskite
4 Painters Servant
4 Simian Spirit guide
1 Goblin Welder
1 Jaya
2 Magus of the Moon

Everything else in MB
3: Tops
4: Bloodmoons
2 Relic of Progenitus
6 Blast effects
4 Grindstone
3 Lightning bolt

SIDEBOARD
4 Ensnaring bridge
2 Sirocco
1 Goblin Welder
2 KOTH
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ratchet Bombs

[Imperial]

Here is the Deck list I used at GPDC

Lands:
8 Sol lands
9 Mountains
3 Tarns

Creatures
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Imperial Recruiters (all i own)
1 Spellskite
4 Painters Servant
4 Simian Spirit guide
1 Goblin Welder
1 Jaya
2 Magus of the Moon

Everything else in MB
3: Tops
4: Bloodmoons
2 Relic of Progenitus
6 Blast effects
4 Grindstone
3 Lightning bolt

SIDEBOARD
4 Ensnaring bridge
2 Sirocco
1 Goblin Welder
2 KOTH
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ratchet Bombs

May I ask how you did?

[ravenklath]

May I ask how you did?
I finished 201 overall.

[jandax]

Sirocco


Interesting choice.

Burn is definitely not a good matchup, that is unless they play bad like your opponents or you combo off early enough.

I'm curious, what card are you going to cut for the fourth Recruiter when you get it?

[Ish]

How many people are playing MB grave hate?

Pretty hard to beat SnT without it... even with bridges. Can't be attacking into a 7/7 lifelinker, nor wait to mill them with Emrakul.

I think I need a singleton gravehate card just to cover the bases. Was thinking 1 Relic MB/3 crypt side.

[jake556]

Yes I am playing the Mono Red version with a pretty standard list I will upload when I get a chance. @Kap n cook you said you never go below 5 blasts that is interesting thanks for that. And thank for the T1 Welder explanation which was another card I had questions about when to play it with artifacts in GY or not.

[Kap'n Cook]

Yes I am playing the Mono Red version with a pretty standard list I will upload when I get a chance. @Kap n cook you said you never go below 5 blasts that is interesting thanks for that. And thank for the T1 Welder explanation which was another card I had questions about when to play it with artifacts in GY or not.

If you're only running 1 welder like a standard list I'd certainly be careful about tossing him to the wolves turn 1 since after that you have no recursion left in the deck. I run 3 (definitely not normal so take with a grain of salt) so seeing the first die makes me pretty happy.

[Kap'n Cook]

How many people are playing MB grave hate?

Pretty hard to beat SnT without it... even with bridges. Can't be attacking into a 7/7 lifelinker, nor wait to mill them with Emrakul.

I think I need a singleton gravehate card just to cover the bases. Was thinking 1 Relic MB/3 crypt side.

I don't think it's that good of an idea. There's no way to tutor for it. If they're making you play it out after you Drop a bridge, assemble tons of blasts in hand with enough mana to pay for soft counters and resolve your jaya or koth. Good game sneak and show

[Ish]

I don't think it's that good of an idea. There's no way to tutor for it. If they're making you play it out after you Drop a bridge, assemble tons of blasts in hand with enough mana to pay for soft counters and resolve your jaya or koth. Good game sneak and show

Got it. Yeah in the UR version it was easily tutored and/or welder'd for.

Your strategy is what I figured game one might be for iPainter. Just make sure to resolve a jaya and ride her to victory.

SnT is obviously a big meta deck again, so just don't want to give away game 1.

I'm gonna try a whopping 3 MB bridge right now. Other than storm it seems like a free win game one against a lot if the field.


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[jandax]

In the list I'm currently working on, I have three MD Bridges and it has been boss thusfar. A fourth might be too greedy, but I'm not sold on the main deck yet, still three cards that I want to solidify. I'll share it soon.

And I also agree that one MD GY hate is not good. As mentioned, an SnT player might just scoop G1 to a resolved Bridge, as they have no other way to victory and Painter has inevitability. Otherwise, you have to play Draw Go until you can win like Kap'n said. There's just no way for SnT to win against a Bridge if it resolves game one.

[Ish]

In the list I'm currently working on, I have three MD Bridges and it has been boss thusfar. A fourth might be too greedy, but I'm not sold on the main deck yet, still three cards that I want to solidify. I'll share it soon.

And I also agree that one MD GY hate is not good. As mentioned, an SnT player might just scoop G1 to a resolved Bridge, as they have no other way to victory and Painter has inevitability. Otherwise, you have to play Draw Go until you can win like Kap'n said. There's just no way for SnT to win against a Bridge if it resolves game one.

Yep! You guys convinced me that MB GY hate is not the way to go. Which I really didn't want to make room for either. Thanks! This has to be one of the best and most interactive threads on the forum!

However if SnT resolves a griselbrand they can't lose to beat down. Jaya and/or Koth are our only win cons. Otherwise draw-go will be won by an emrakul discard. We just have to make sure you have a few blast to jam one through.


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[GundamGuy]

H

Rd1. Opponent: Donald.
Deck: Burn
Result: W 2-1

Game one I won via Grindstone Painter Servant Combo. On turn 4 because my opponent didn't use his suspended Rift Bolt to Kill my Painter Servant. Game two I lost to Sulfuric Vortex and not being able to find a way to kill him. Game three both are at 1 Life. I had been attacking with Phyrexian Revokers and Painter servant. I finally Use Sensi's Divining Top to hit a Lightning Bolt and kill him on his Upkeep.

Rd2. Opponent: Spencer
Table 277
Deck: Burn
Result: W 2-1

Game one ends the same way the first round does. Combo out. Game 2 I Mull to 6 then die quickly to bolt/chain/Fireblast. Game three I have A goblin welder in play with Grindstone after activation of grindstone on the stack before it resolves I switch control of it and a Painter servant in graveyard and name blue and he gets milled out. He debated calling a judge about the ruling on how that worked but chose not to.




I have to say beating Burn twice in a row is quite a feat.

Congratulations on the good showing at GPDC.

Also it's probably right to bring in Thorn of Amethyst against Omni-Tell. I'v not played that match-up ever... but that would be my approach.

[jandax]

Thorn and Bridge hamper their game plan. At least a Thorn doesn't make Omniscience and Dream Halls a freeroll factory. I'd cut Grindstone and Blood Moon in that order.

[GundamGuy]

Thorn and Bridge hamper their game plan. At least a Thorn doesn't make Omniscience and Dream Halls a freeroll factory. I'd cut Grindstone and Blood Moon in that order.

Yeah that is true. But my logic on why you would want thorn is because Omni-tell is a three card combo so slowing down their cantrips seems benificial. Thorn seems to hit every part of their gameplan actually.

[jandax]

You logic is sound. But I'd save any Blasts for the big spells themselves, or to protect a Thorn or two. I wouldn't waste them on cantrips or maybe even a Cunning Wish.

Okay gents, here's a short primer for Soviet Control. It's not a totally different build on iPainter, it's more focused on being pre sideboarded, really. It started from taking a standard main deck and throwing it in the air and what ever cards landed face up, they made the cut. The others were the ''wiggle room''. After that turned out to be a bad way at deck approach, I decided to look at iPainter's bad matchups and go from there. It's not that iPainter has many bad matchups, it's just that the ones that aren't fun are more common in any given tournament setting. To name a few: Emrakul Decks, Elves (especially Mono G), Burn, fast aggro like Goblins, Zoo (that no one plays anymore) and I'll even put UWr Delver here too (the archetype with lots of spot removal or disruption and cheap, efficient critters) Game ones were, in my experience, pretty much losses. I would side into a Mono Red Control deck and forego the Grindstone kill for either dork beatdowns or Painter/Jaya shenanigens.

Cards that made it into the main deck following this philosophy; Ensnaring Bridge, sweepers, Koth of the Hammer. These three create a built in secondary or terciary combo that will take over in the face of superior strategies. They work independantly from each other, and if combined in some fashion, plug any holes that other decks would normally exploit. On to the main deck.

8 Mountain
4 Red Fetchlands
8 Sol lands

-Playing 20 lands because this is a control deck and it needs stability in its mana

The basics-

4 Recruiter
4 Painter
4 SSG
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
6 Blasts (2 REB/4 Pyro)
3 Top

The Control Shell-

3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Sudden Demise
2 Koth of the Hammer
Recruiter Targets:
1 Jaya Ballard
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker

A.) Control Decks:
(Applies to: Miracles, Stoneblade, Landstill, Shardless BUG/BUG Control, etc.)

All of these decks, except Miracles, leans heavily on Basic lands, so Blood Moon is good. They all have reasonable stacks of removal but by large they're looking to go to the red zone to end the game. Otherwise, they'll try to Jace you, for which you have mad blasts. Bridge becomes better here because it allows you to play the draw go game to either assemble a hand to combo off with protection or you simply start nugging them with Jaya under a bridge. I feel good in these matchups. Stoneblade, however, can be problematic. They have hand disruption and counters, and Wasteland. Koth and Bridge are also boss in any situation, that could also be another out.

B.) Tempo Decks:
(Applies to: Team America, RUG Tempo/Canadian Threshold, UWr Delver, Merfolk, etc.)

Again, Blood Moon is great here. They are assuredly attacking for the win so Bridge is also nuts. UWr Delver is a tough matchup though. They have lots of counters, lots of spot removal, but are mostly dead to a resolved Bridge or Blood Moon. They can also operate on Blood Moon mana because they have Grim Lavamancers often enough. Watch out for Meddling Mage out of the board.

C.) Aggressive Creature Decks:
(Applies to: Zoo, Goblins, Burn, etc.)

Tough matchups. Mulligan to a Bridge or fast combo but be prepared for a removal in response to the Stone ability. Sweepers are nice, and Blood Moon isn't so strong here.

D.) Midrange Creature Decks:
(Applies to: Maverick, Junk, B/x Discard, Death & Taxes, Jund, Nicfit, etc.)

While they utilize more basics than most, Moons are good because their non basics are utility lands vital to their own strategies. They're also attacking for the win, so Bridges shine. A lot easier than the aggressive creature decks because they're slower and you have inevitability.

E.) Small Creature Combo Decks:
(Applies to: Elves, Painter Servant, Dredge, etc.)

Tough, but winnable. Elves isn't the match for a Grindstone kill, as somewhere in the 75 they likely have Progenitus or Emrakul. I can't speak for the mirror but you play the deck too, so just try to out draw them and stay ahead.

F.) Big Creature/Show and Tell Combo Decks:
(Applies to: OmniShow, Sneak & Show, Reanimator, etc.)

Tough. Here's why you preboard bridges. Here's why your alternate wincons are main deck.

G.) Combo Decks:
(Applies to: ANT, TES, High Tide, etc.)

Slap a Thorn down first thing and know your matchup. Get a painter down too to counterblast their important spells and then mill them.

H.) Prison Decks:
(Applies to: MUD/Stax/Chalice Aggro/Lands, etc.)

Just kill them fast. Chalices will be annoying If you play against Lands, just rejoice and windmill slam a Blood Moon. They do play basics, but you should have ample time to go off from there.

The Sideboard
4 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Manic Vandal
1 REB
1 Sudden Demise
1 Jaya
1 Ensnaring Bridge

Sideboarding Guide

A)Using your best judgement, the first thing I would side out are Moons for the decks running ample basic lands. In come your Revokers, and a Vandal for their artifacts. I'd shave a Magus, too, for an extra Jaya. They will likely burn the first one out, so a back up has always been good to me.

B)Moons are hot, so is the main deck. Sudden Demise will kill Nimble Mongoose should they get one down before you can plop a Moon on the table. Revokers are also good, but there's not much from the main deck I'd want to shave. You can drop your Koths for extra Blast/Demise/Bridge/Revokers. the Maindeck is geared to cover these bases so there's not much to it really.

C) Out go koth, in go the extra Bridge and Demise. You can sweep a whole board with a Painter out. Mulligan to a Bridge, or a good control hand, and keep casting spells they need to deal with to eat up their resources. Against Burn, side out all four Moons, Magus can still block stuff, for a Bridge, Demise, and two Revokers (for Lavaman, Hellspark Elemental, stuff)

D) Maindeck is good here. Use your best judgement to what you need to supplement your MD with from the sideboard. Shave cards for what you bring in, I would't side out a whole set of cards.

E) Elves: In 1 Bridge 1 Demise 4 Cage Out 2 Koth 4 Moon. Welders keep your stuff in play when they go for a Viridian Shaman or whatever. Cages are awesome here, as they stop GSZ, Fetch for Dryad, and Natural Order. Cast multiple copies of your artifacts because it'll suck to have them destroy your one bridge and then Craterhoof for the win.

Mirror: Side out Moons for Revokers and a Vandal.

Dredge: Moons for Cages. Mull to get one.

F) Maindeck is also suited for the matchups. Supplement MD with sideboard cards by shaving MD cards to your best judgement.

G) Moons out for Thorns and a Revoker or two. Revoker LED or Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal. Blast their cantrips or hold on to them if you have a Painter out, for their tutors.

H) Race. Revokers are good here, and Manic Vandal is too. Swap the moons for them.

I want to add to this post, so maybe we can front page it?

Discuss!

[GoblinZ]

I joined a tournament yesterday, 7 rounds for top 16, the result is a little disappointing. I got 17th with 4-2-1.
I prepared a lot for elves, dnt and other random aggro decks like goblins, but I did not meet any one of them. My meta is heavily blue, but unfortunately I only met one blue based aggro-control deck in the last round, which was too late for me.

here is a brief report：

2-0 vs Jund
Nothing to say, ground him out game 1. resolved blood moon game 2.

1-2 vs burn
He is the only person running burn yesterday. I lost game two and three with mutiple tombs in hand

1-1 vs reanimator
Game one he comboed out very quickly. game two I ground him out with mutiple bridges, revokers and relic

2-1 vs dredge
He is a rookie, so I was really fortunate

0-2 vs jund
Mana screwed in game one. Resolved an early blood moon, while he landed basics...

2-1 vs Sneakshow
he is my team mate, I mulled to five in game one and beat him with 2 weenie. Then I got crushed in game two. Game three I revoked his sneak attack, attacked for the win. I did not draw a single bridge vs him.

2-1 vs esper blade
I resolved blood moon in three games while he drew 8 basic within these 3 games. I was dead if he played correctly in game 3

the largest mistake I made yesterday was that I should take an aggressive mulligan in game 3 vs Reanimator when time was run out.

Nearly every single game was really really tough. If my meta become more hostile to IP, I may consider switching to other decks for a while.

[Tokugawa]

I joined a tournament yesterday, 7 rounds for top 16, the result is a little disappointing. I got 17th with 4-2-1.
I prepared a lot for elves, dnt and other random aggro decks like goblins, but I did not meet any one of them. My meta is heavily blue, but unfortunately I only met one blue based aggro-control deck in the last round, which was too late for me.

here is a brief report：

2-0 vs Jund
Nothing to say, ground him out game 1. resolved blood moon game 2.

1-2 vs burn
He is the only person running burn yesterday. I lost game two and three with mutiple tombs in hand

1-1 vs reanimator
Game one he comboed out very quickly. game two I ground him out with mutiple bridges, revokers and relic

2-1 vs dredge
He is a rookie, so I was really fortunate

0-2 vs jund
Mana screwed in game one. Resolved an early blood moon, while he landed basics...

2-1 vs Sneakshow
he is my team mate, I mulled to five in game one and beat him with 2 weenie. Then I got crushed in game two. Game three I revoked his sneak attack, attacked for the win. I did not draw a single bridge vs him.

2-1 vs esper blade
I resolved blood moon in three games while he drew 8 basic within these 3 games. I was dead if he played correctly in game 3

the largest mistake I made yesterday was that I should take an aggressive mulligan in game 3 vs Reanimator when time was run out.

Nearly every single game was really really tough. If my meta become more hostile to IP, I may consider switching to other decks for a while.

Watched the tournament yersterday. AFAIK, this is the biggest legacy event in Beijing(50+ players).

You played well, but had very bad luck. Saw you keep meeting red decks again and again, while the other tables were crowed with blue decks like...Blade, Miracles, BUG and "North Korea".

How do you think about your sideboard decision?

[Ish]

@jandax per the "primer"

First: overall nice job. Would be nice to update the front page based on the current meta.

Per the deck name: I still think its imperial painter. Getting to cute with names just confuses people. Imperial painter at its heart is a lockdown stompy deck with a combo win. Especially if we want to update the first page.

Typos: the artifact land is Great Furnace, and those tempo decks don't have a lot of basics :). Prob a few others I'm missing.

Card choices:
-did you miss the MB moons?
-I don't like MB sweepers. I just rely on fast combo and spot removal game 1. Fast combining aggro is still the bast option game 2 as well. Why muddy the deck with sweepers to stall the game over just winning. This is also why I advocate some type of bolt (I prefer magma jet) to kill critters and smooth draws.
-SIdeboard:
-elves is far from unwinnable. I actually have a positive record against both mono green and Gb. They almost can't beat a bridge, stick more than one and/or a welder; GG. Therefore I hate the 4 grafdigger's cages. Get some crypts in that SB. I will not fold the combo to Emrakul decks... And crypt still crushes GY decks.
-artifact removal; there's nothing to deal with chalice here. I have all too many times played against chalice. You have to have more than a single out to it. Manic vandal, shattering spree, ratchet bomb; so many good answers which also have dual purpose. Shattering spree also answers an equipped nemesis which is a real clock! We can race a 3/1 but a 7/5 or jitte'd progenifish is pretty quick to end the game.

Hers what I currently have sleeved up for my input

Deck: legacy - Imperial Painter.dec

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:17
1 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells:23
4 Grindstone
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Magma Jet
4 Blood Moon
3 Ensnaring Bridge

Lands:20
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
4 City of Traitors
1 Mountain

Sideboard:15
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Shattering Spree
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Koth of the Hammer



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[jandax]

Oh that's a gross typo, thought I had those in there, gonna edit now

Now on to answer your questions:

I do have a manic vandal in the side for Chalice and other stuff. I am also relying on Bridge to cover more ground and prevent equipment from getting into the red zone in the first place, thus negating its advantage and freeing sideboard space up. Plus there is always Painter plus Jaya to get rid of a Chalice in a pinch.

I called it Soviet Control because that's awesome, and fitting. A rose by any other name...

And regarding Elves, I dunno who you're playing against or what builds they have, but I have never had any luck in the matchup. Even mouth breathing tards who forget to untap Sentinals and draw off of Visionary have an oops-I-win match against me with Painter. I don't want a three card combo in order to win. Red has plenty of game against 1/1s, Ensnaring Bridge is MVP, but the real problem is you have to have it in hand at the start and you only get a turn or two, maybe three, before they go off. That's max two or three main phases to land a Bridge, which they'll just GSZ for artifact removal, poop out a Craterhoof and that's that. The way I need to play to win, or at least how I feel I need to play, is that I have to stall their early game by sweeping a few dorks off the board, sticking a Cage to prevent them from digging stuff up, and then continuously add to the board Bridges or Revokers until I can close the game out in a prison-control fashion. I'm assuming they're going off turn two or three every game, which they more often than not do. No time to durdle around with a three card combo. And Cage is tits in other matchups, too.

Now that I screwed the primer maindeck list up by forgetting Blood Moon (which I have corrected) I want to find room for Welder again. It might be that I have a chubby for Koth, and I am trying to be objective about it.

[Ish]

I agree your SB is better against elves, but I still think no crypt is lacking against emrakul decks. Maybe there's a split that's is better.

I was also playing UR Painter for a bit, and finding bridge fast (3+1 of in the 75) was very easy. And 4 welder laughed at artifact removal.



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[Stils1]

I really like your list Jandax. It's something I definitely want to test!

[jandax]

I really like your list Jandax. It's something I definitely want to test!

Thanks! I wouldn't fault you for running a Goblin Welder as a 61st card in your testing...:wink:


@Ish

Dude, UR painter is a totally different animal. Obv it was easier to find whatever you could want with Brainstorms and Ponders and the like.

It isn't that I had given up on Emrakul matches. I just think it is wiser to switch gears on them, and play more to their weaknesses than iPainter's strengths. I sure hope you can prove me wrong, because until I find room for the two Welders I want, I'm sticking with Cages and I'm not going over 60 cards.

[Ish]

Yeah it is different. I've played many more games with mono red, but elves wasn't as popular. I still relied on bridge when playing mono red though, and didn't feel like it was an unfavorable matchup. We can still go off turn 2 with a nuts draw as well... They are probably a little more consistent though.

That's also another reason for bolt effects MB. Killing a few essential critters can be crippling to elves.

I can see your point with cage, but I won't go to 0 crypt. I'm going to try a 3 cage/1 crypt split. That still gives me the out to SnT via mill.


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[jandax]

The thing was, most Elves players here had an Emrakul in their 75, so I dunno if it's any different now but most do run NoPro as well.

[Ish]

The thing was, most Elves players here had an Emrakul in their 75, so I dunno if it's any different now but most do run NoPro as well.

The current lists I know of and have played against are 0 Emrakul and 1 Progen in the board. Even in game 2 you can easily mill them out... just takes 1 extra turn to live through, but they'll have 0 cards in their library so they have to have lethal on board.

[ravenklath]

Sirocco


Interesting choice.

Burn is definitely not a good matchup, that is unless they play bad like your opponents or you combo off early enough.

I'm curious, what card are you going to cut for the fourth Recruiter when you get it?

My Cut would be the 2nd Revoker and move it to sideboard.

Sirocco was an interesting choice but proved lack luster. It was fun to watch some opponents discard their whole hand though

[jandax]

The current lists I know of and have played against are 0 Emrakul and 1 Progen in the board. Even in game 2 you can easily mill them out... just takes 1 extra turn to live through, but they'll have 0 cards in their library so they have to have lethal on board.

I'd stick with the mill plan if I knew they'd run only proggy and not emrakul.

[Imperial]

So fun Blood-mooning 3 color decks on turn 1. Really happy with Imperial Painter, and I feel that it's a very good deck currently.

[jandax]

Agreed, it's one of the reasons I play it.

merry Christmas to everyone!

[Ish]

Merry Christmas / Happy Holidays to all celebrating today!

Yeah, blood moon is really strong right now. I felt it was losing some power a few months ago, but people went right back to being greedy. Eats the TNN decks alive.


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[Imperial]

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Great Furnace
4 Scalding Tarn
6 Mountain

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Figure of Destiny
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
3 Goblin Welder
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Blood Moon
2 Lotus Petal
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Faithless Looting
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

SB:

4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Shattering Spree

What do you guys think? I'm trying to focus on a more solid welder/aggro plan, with more equipment and creatures. Also, on another note, are there any Painter players in the SoCal/West Coast area?

[jandax]

Consider your bad matchups here, how at they improved by leaning on welder to cheat equipment into pay or going the aggro path? Show ant will walk all over you, you can't play the control well in aggro matchups. You're missing out on two very strong cards right now; blood moon and ensnaring bridge. For mono red, [I think] 5 moons aren't optimal. MD bridges will grant you more game one wins than turning dudes sideways. Don't take my advice, test it out fire yourself.

[Ish]

@jandax

You think mono red should be running more that 5 moons MB? Right now I'm at 4/1 but always liked 4/2. But with jamming so many MB bridges I had to make cuts.


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[jandax]

@jandax

You think mono red should be running more that 5 moons MB? Right now I'm at 4/1 but always liked 4/2. But with jamming so many MB bridges I had to make cuts.


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Six is a great number (4 moon/2nite of course) and I wouldn't fault anyone for running 7, while 8 takes up slots for important things like MD bridges.

Rw can get away with 5 because they have tutors and recruiters.

[Will_L]

Hello all, first post in this thread. Been playing Imperial Painter for about a year now.

I've really been enjoying the discussion you guys are having here. The white splash discussion in particular I found really "Enlightening" :tongue:

I have a couple of things I'd like to ask about... I'll post my list for reference.


x4 Imperial Recruiter
x4 Simian Spirit Guide
x4 Painter's Servant
x3 Magus of the Moon
x2 Goblin Welder
x1 Stingscourger
x1 Phyrexian Revoker
x1 Bloodfire Dwarf

x2 Chrome Mox
x2 Lion's Eye Diamond
x2 Sensei's Divining Top
x3 Pyroblast
x3 Red Elemental Blast
x4 Grindstone
x4 Blood Moon

x4 City of Traitors
x4 Ancient Tomb
x2 Great Furnace
x2 Scalding Tarn
x2 Wooded Foothills
x2 Cavern of Souls
x4 Mountain

SB

x1 Magus of the Moon
x1 Pyroblast
x1 Red Elemental Blast
x2 Ashen Rider
x2 Faerie Macabre
x4 Thorn of Amethyst
x4 Ensnaring Bridge


Ok so you will notice there 2-3 abnormal choices.

I used to play Martyr of Ashes in the past but I have found I like Bloodfire Dwarf more against Elves, that one extra mana really matters sometimes. Especially if you had to Recruiter for it and you need to play and activate in the same turn. I also like that I don't have to give away information off the Dwarf.

A friend of mine suggested Cavern when I was figuring out a list for this deck. I've had it be both insane and I've also had it get Wastelanded. That's the biggest liability of running Cavern of Souls is that it can get wasted. Sometimes you could get jammed up and not be able to cast Blasts off Cavern, but that has not been a big issue for me. The upside is that both Magus of the Moon and Imperial Recruiter are humans so you can push them through countermagic. My thinking is that Cavern of Souls makes one of our biggest threats (Moons) uncounterable. It can also be used to name Scarecrow if needed! Sometimes I wonder if Cavern is just winmoar though? I have pushed through early Magus's when my opponent later showed me they did have Force, though...

The other big thing is that I am playing Lion's Eye Diamond. The downside is that it can be dead late game. That is why I have only ever run 2, although 1 might be even better. I have tried to look back in this thread for some discussion on the subject but much of it was from a long time ago. The upside to the LED is that it allows for way more turn 2 and even turn 1 wins. I worry though that I am making the deck worse by only playing 2 Tops sometimes... LED's are basically taking up that 1 other slot for the 3rd SDT. Anyone here ever play Lion's Eye Diamond in this deck?

Any feedback is appreciated, thanks guys

[jandax]

Welcome to the discussion!


First off, that is one abnormal list indeed. In an attempt to understand it better, could you explain your Meta and provide some sideboarding strategery?

I'll wait on that before chiming in!

[lambert101]

hello comrades! This is the latest list for Soviet Control I have been running:

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
8 Mountains
4 Scalding Tarn

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Goblin Welder
1 flex tutor spot (usually a 2nd magus, spellskitte, 2nd welder, or something spicy)
4 Painter Servant

3 Ensaring Bridge
4 Lighting Bolt
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sensei's Diving Top
4 Grindstone

Board:
4 Thorn of Amethyst (F you combo)
2 Ratchet Bomb (DnT, Elves, Goblins, Miracles [angel tokens and counterbalance])
2 Red Elemental Blast (Delver decks, miracles, and Show n' Tell.dec)
3 Pithing Needle ( Deathrite.dec, elves, Vial Decks [Merfolk, DnT, and Goblins], combo, and control)
3 pyroclasm (aggro decks)
1 Manic Vandal (boom artifacts)

[Imperial]

Consider your bad matchups here, how at they improved by leaning on welder to cheat equipment into pay or going the aggro path? Show ant will walk all over you, you can't play the control well in aggro matchups. You're missing out on two very strong cards right now; blood moon and ensnaring bridge. For mono red, [I think] 5 moons aren't optimal. MD bridges will grant you more game one wins than turning dudes sideways. Don't take my advice, test it out fire yourself.

How many moon effects/bridges do you think I should include in the main for it to be effective?

[Will_L]

Welcome to the discussion!


First off, that is one abnormal list indeed. In an attempt to understand it better, could you explain your Meta and provide some sideboarding strategery?

I'll wait on that before chiming in!

Is there anything in particular that stands out as especially strange or bad? (Don't worry you won't hurt my feelings :laugh:)

If I'm being completely honest I don't really have a defined meta to play in. My area is pretty low key for legacy action. Some of the decks I see when I do get to play are most Delver decks (RUG, BUG, RWU) some Blade decks (U/W, Esper) and then a good amount of Elves!, some burn and one guy who always plays 43 lands. There is very little combo where I play, it's usually me playing the combo decks.

As far as sideboarding I generally just shave stuff to jam what I need in any particular MU. Very rarely will I straight up cut whole sets of stuff. Against Storm based combo I would bring in basically everything except Ensnaring Bridge and Ashen Rider. I would cut Chrome Moxes, LEDs, my 1 off tutor targets and shave a few other slots. Against Show and Tell based combo I would bring the Ashen Riders and Blasts. Against most non-Delver creature decks I bring in Ensnaring Bridges.

I don't really get to play enough to have good answers about how I would sideboard. I hope I can still get some feedback or advice without knowing these things, sorry!

[jandax]

How many moon effects/bridges do you think I should include in the main for it to be effective?

Six, maybe seven, and eight is too much. I've found six to be an ideal number. It let's you naturally see one at a decent rate but.frees up a slot or two for other things do you don't have to run 7 or 8



Is there anything in particular that stands out as especially strange or bad? (Don't worry you won't hurt my feelings :laugh:)

If I'm being completely honest I don't really have a defined meta to play in. My area is pretty low key for legacy action. Some of the decks I see when I do get to play are most Delver decks (RUG, BUG, RWU) some Blade decks (U/W, Esper) and then a good amount of Elves!, some burn and one guy who always plays 43 lands. There is very little combo where I play, it's usually me playing the combo decks.

As far as sideboarding I generally just shave stuff to jam what I need in any particular MU. Very rarely will I straight up cut whole sets of stuff. Against Storm based combo I would bring in basically everything except Ensnaring Bridge and Ashen Rider. I would cut Chrome Moxes, LEDs, my 1 off tutor targets and shave a few other slots. Against Show and Tell based combo I would bring the Ashen Riders and Blasts. Against most non-Delver creature decks I bring in Ensnaring Bridges.

I don't really get to play enough to have good answers about how I would sideboard. I hope I can still get some feedback or advice without knowing these things, sorry!

Sweet meta for iPainter!

Burn and elves are tough, but the rest is cake or at least I'd be happy to be in that field of decks. I posted my list a few pages back, go have a look and note the differences. Since the room for innovation is so tight in our 75, I rhino that every painter player decided to fill those previous negotiable slots with stuff they feel is necessary.
My only critique would be that four(!) Artifact mana sources are also sources of card disadvantage. I dropped moxen from my list ages ago, and have never run LED

[slayjay]

Finished 5th yesterday in Hanau, Germany. About 50 players, cut to top 8.


My decklist:


Team N!´s "judged by"


// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
6 [RAV] Mountain (1)
4 [MR] Great Furnace


// Creatures
4 [P3] Imperial Recruiter
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
1 [UL] Goblin Welder
2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
1 [TSP] Jaya Ballard, Task Mage


// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [DK] Blood Moon
3 [U] Red Elemental Blast
4 [IA] Pyroblast
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge


// Sideboard
SB: 2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 [REL] Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroclasm

Pyroclasm should have been sudden demises, but my order did not arrive soon enough.
No draw, no library manipulation, no burn. Just get first turn moon, empty your hand, lay back behind your ensnaring bridges and a lot of one mana, instant vindicates. I know it´s risky, but hey, all in and win. I play this deck since years, and this is the version I like the most at the moment.

After six round of swiss, I was first, won the first four rounds against deathblade, bw, blade controll and 12 post. Went awesome 8-0, not losing a single game! Lucky me! The next two rounds I was able to ID, so I went 4-0-2 and first.

Top 8 I was paired againt uwr delver, and the tide turned, we had two very strange games, I had the total board controll with moon and ensnaring bridge out, he has no chance to remove these two, but died both games to grim lavamancer and bolts, lol. But all in all a very funny day, seeing a lost of faces from the past ( I quit playing a lot of tournament magic years ago), funny games and two revised plateaus as the price.

[jandax]

That list don't afraid of nothin'

Respect and congrats!

[slayjay]

That list don't afraid of nothin'

Respect and congrats!

Thanks! Funny thing: I won only an single game with painter+grindstone, rest of the games with simple beatdown...:tongue:

[Imperial]

Finished 5th yesterday in Hanau, Germany. About 50 players, cut to top 8.


My decklist:


Team N!´s "judged by"


// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
6 [RAV] Mountain (1)
4 [MR] Great Furnace


// Creatures
4 [P3] Imperial Recruiter
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
1 [UL] Goblin Welder
2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
1 [TSP] Jaya Ballard, Task Mage


// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [DK] Blood Moon
3 [U] Red Elemental Blast
4 [IA] Pyroblast
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge


// Sideboard
SB: 2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 [REL] Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroclasm

Pyroclasm should have been sudden demises, but my order did not arrive soon enough.
No draw, no library manipulation, no burn. Just get first turn moon, empty your hand, lay back behind your ensnaring bridges and a lot of one mana, instant vindicates. I know it´s risky, but hey, all in and win. I play this deck since years, and this is the version I like the most at the moment.

After six round of swiss, I was first, won the first four rounds against deathblade, bw, blade controll and 12 post. Went awesome 8-0, not losing a single game! Lucky me! The next two rounds I was able to ID, so I went 4-0-2 and first.

Top 8 I was paired againt uwr delver, and the tide turned, we had two very strange games, I had the total board controll with moon and ensnaring bridge out, he has no chance to remove these two, but died both games to grim lavamancer and bolts, lol. But all in all a very funny day, seeing a lost of faces from the past ( I quit playing a lot of tournament magic years ago), funny games and two revised plateaus as the price.

Congrats man! Yeah, I'm thinking of taking something like this to a tournament Thursday. My local legacy scenes been growing, so it's time to bust out the BMoons!

[jandax]

Amended my list, mainly because I don't have the guts to play a 61 card deck...

9 Mountain
4 Red Fetchlands
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Recruiter
4 Painter
4 SSG
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
6 Blasts (2 REB/4 Pyro)
3 Top
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Koth of the Hammer
1 Goblin Welder
1 Jaya Ballard
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Lotus Petal


SB:

4 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Sudden Demise
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Manic Vandal
1 Martyr of Ashes

From the last list I moved the two Sudden Demise to the SB to make room for the Lotus Petal I shaved (mistake), the Goblin Welder (Want 2), and swapped out a City for a Mountain.

I shaved a Revoker from the side for a Martyr of Ashes, but like the Bloodfire Dwarf idea from Will_L. My main concern is that it's double Red to fire off, and because I just shaved a Sol land for a basic mountain, it should speak to how the deck can lock itself out of appropriate mana in the long run. Other than that, the sideboard is pretty much what it was the last time around. I'm prepared for my bad matchups; Show and Tell/Emrakul decks, Elves, Burn, graveyard decks, and am ready to squash the rest.

[slayjay]

Amended my list, mainly because I don't have the guts to play a 61 card deck...

9 Mountain
4 Red Fetchlands
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Recruiter
4 Painter
4 SSG
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
6 Blasts (2 REB/4 Pyro)
3 Top
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Koth of the Hammer
1 Goblin Welder
1 Jaya Ballard
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Lotus Petal


SB:

4 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Sudden Demise
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Manic Vandal
1 Martyr of Ashes

From the last list I moved the two Sudden Demise to the SB to make room for the Lotus Petal I shaved (mistake), the Goblin Welder (Want 2), and swapped out a City for a Mountain.

I shaved a Revoker from the side for a Martyr of Ashes, but like the Bloodfire Dwarf idea from Will_L. My main concern is that it's double Red to fire off, and because I just shaved a Sol land for a basic mountain, it should speak to how the deck can lock itself out of appropriate mana in the long run. Other than that, the sideboard is pretty much what it was the last time around. I'm prepared for my bad matchups; Show and Tell/Emrakul decks, Elves, Burn, graveyard decks, and am ready to squash the rest.


I like this list a lot! In your games, was your deck fast enough without mox and only 7 sol lands?

[jandax]

I like this list a lot! In your games, was your deck fast enough without mox and only 7 sol lands?

I'm not geared for fast. That's more all in where this is more controlling. The thing about moxen, they're card disadvantage where Lotus Petal is the free mana you need to accelerate. In the Painter spectrum, I prefer to be more stable than all-in. I've played both styles and this suits me more.

Regarding the 8th Sol Land, it could still be in there. I just haven't played enough games paying attention to the mana base to know whether the 9th mountain or 8th Sol land is justified. Splitting hairs I'm sure.

[rancOr_]

@Jandax: I play the same md but -1lotus petal +1city of traitors. If you play petal,wouldn't it be better to play the 8th sol first. I'd play the petal over a mountain first. Although I think it's better to just play 21lands instead then. You're sideboard looks pretty good! Have u got to test the cages yet ? I had extra blast/x instead ,but having some general gy hate is absolutely better in bigger tournaments.

[jandax]

I'm back and forth on the 8th sol/9th mountain thing...

Regarding Cages, I think they're the tits. They neuter Elves' engines (GSZ, Fetch> Dryad, NatOrder), they deal with Dredge/Reanimator/Tinfins for :1: I'd just assume to run four instead of a split between Cages and Crypts. For what it's worth, Cages deal with corner case decks we see here in NL like Zombardment and Cephalid Breakfast and the like. I don't ever want to lose to jank.dec, no matter how much cool and awesome they are.

I think I won't be trail blazing and just play the ol' 8/4/8 mana base. 21 lands is just too much for my taste, might even shave another Mountain for a petal, going down to 19 lands. Gotta put the testing time in to observe averages though, again it's probably splitting hairs.

[Kap'n Cook]

I'm personally a fan of the panglacial wurm splash hate cage provides

[jandax]

English is my native language and I don't even

[Imperial]

Wow, looks like we're getting a little more popular. Imperial Painter now makes up almost 10% of the mtgo legacy metagame.

[Dice_Box]

That's because online Imp costs 2 bucks. Us offline players...