[Deck] Imperial Painter

[japz]

Congrats! Will you be traveling to France?


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[DrewliusMaximus]

Jack, are you running the exact same list as the SCG / GP?

[Kap'n Cook]

Jack, are you running the exact same list as the SCG / GP?


I switched up the list after the SCG. The GP list takes into account those changes and is the up to date one. Also posted on the first page under the white splash part for anyone interested

[jake556]

Get it Painter! Congrats Greg! It was my pleasure to watch you take it down!

[ManyCookies]

Nice job to Greg Smith, who won this week's SCG completely undefeated with Painter. As in, 2-0'd every match.

[civet five]

Would be nice if SCG could get it together and not break the links on their decklists. I was only able to catch the top4, was it a pretty standard Mono Red? It sounded like he won a mirror by ultimate'ing Chandra.

[apple713]

Nice job to Greg Smith, who won this week's SCG completely undefeated with Painter. As in, 2-0'd every match.

since there is no link to his list , was his deck that good or was he just that lucky?

[Zombie]

since there is no link to his list , was his deck that good or was he just that lucky?

You know it's always all three of luck, deck quality and playskill.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

A meta full of Esper-Blade probably helps.

I'm trying to update my data, can we assume that he ran SDT or do we have to actually see results for that?

[jake556]

since there is no link to his list , was his deck that good or was he just that lucky?

You can just tell from watching Greg he is VERY skilled in playing the deck, yes you need to be lucky to win but don't sell him short, dat man has skillz....

[GoblinSettler]

A meta full of Esper-Blade probably helps.

I'm trying to update my data, can we assume that he ran SDT or do we have to actually see results for that?

He ran Top. Also Pyromaster and a one of Welder were mentioned in the coverage but not shown in games that I noticed.

[phoenix4]

Yet again we get results with the deck.... Now we just need to win the BoM and a legacy GP :D

[phoenix4]

While I didn't see Greg play last night.. How's his style of play?

And to expand the question: How is your preferred, personal playstyle? :)

[Hopo]

While I didn't see Greg play last night.. How's his style of play?

And to expand the question: How is your preferred, personal playstyle? :)

I like tapping lands for mana, then using that mana to cast spells at appropriate times in order to win before my opponent does.

[phoenix4]

I like tapping lands for mana, then using that mana to cast spells at appropriate times in order to win before my opponent does.

Well, actually I thought that we were past these child like comments, but let me elaborate: Is your playstyle, controllish, aggressive or what?

[Kap'n Cook]

The top 4 and finals match illustrate my spellskite point perfectly. The card is just awesome at protecting stuff when you naturally draw it, whereas recruiting for it to then protect your magus makes it a turn 4 play. It also helps that the deathblade player sucked and grabbed batterskull which he knew he wouldn't be able to cast for another three turns. Anyways, that's my takeaway. Spellskite definitely did work there coming down turns 1 and 2.

I'll change my stance slightly as well. While I won't be running any spellskites in my 75 and I think it's hit or miss main like burn spells, it could be a great two-of in the side in a correct build for the fair matchups.

[Shawon]

One mistake I think Greg Smith made was using a REB on Lee Prost's Sword of Fire and Ice while Painter was in play, because no matter what, since Sword becomes a blue permanent, Lee Prost can target any creature of his with the Equip, but SoFI will immediately fall off the creature because the creature has protection from blue.

[mcbain]

That's a great point. I hadn't thought of that.

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[Jungian Thing]

Shortcake strikes again. Took down this: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27248-Coopersburg-PA-Bazaar-of-Moxen-Legacy-Qualifier-Plane-Ticket-February-22

3 hours in:

http://www.twitch.tv/talesofadventure/b/505589676

Beat: Stoneblade, Solidarity, TES x2, Deathblade, Reanimator x2, miracles, Shardless Bug. Drew vs UR Delver and lost to Team America round 8 trying to get top overall seed.

Hi Kap'n, I took a look a the video, it was great, the commentators are a whole new kind of professional! I've been playing your list and to me it is really glass cannony, I do realise this is me, you don't seem to mulligan all that often. What are you looking for in an opening grip? A red source and..? It also looks like you "smoke 'em if you got 'em" when you play. That is you will drop grindstone into play etc. without the rest of the combo available. What is your play order? For me, and this is from the primer, it's blood moon as quickly as possible but then I am not so sure and tend to hold back. You appear to try and use all your mana each turn unless you have a blast. Some tips would be greatly appreciated.

Oh, and congratulations!

[Kap'n Cook]

What do you mean when you say it feels like more of a glass cannon? Compared to mono red?

I'll write something longer tonight, I just wanted to clarify first. And of course thanks.

[Jungian Thing]

What do you mean when you say it feels like more of a glass cannon? Compared to mono red?

I'll write something longer tonight, I just wanted to clarify first. And of course thanks.

Firstly, thanks for the response. By glass canon, I mean in general, not when compared to mono-red. I get this is my deficiency and I think it comes down to lack of experience and not seeing all the lines of play. I basically crumble if I can't drop a quick moon or pull off the god hand grind by turn two. Watching you, you seemed to hold the initiative almost from the get go. Do you blast early to achieve this? I hold those for protecting the pieces, you seem to play more for tempo, I think. Your games looked like a pressure cooker, make the opponent rush plays and respond in ways they may not have wanted to.

(What's with the small font?)

[Kap'n Cook]

I mean just from the two videos there isn't really anything that was skillful or outplaying my opponent. Against shardless bug they don't run daze so you just want to overload their decays/lock them off colors/establish a bridge and protect it. So that's all I really did both games. I got lucky drawing the ensnaring bridge as well game 2 when the goyf was beating.

Against reanimator game 1 I didn't play anything because I wanted to nab a careful study if possible. From there it was just my opponent's cantrips not finding anything for him. I draw a welder and I would rather either the grindstone or top get dazed since Welder will go to town, so I played it first. That's about it in terms of sequencing. Everything else about both matches was just drawing better and having the right card.


Regarding the blood moon question. Against an unknown opponent and you are on the play with a turn 1 moon you always go for it. I usually will also in a sideboard game on the play if it will be game ending.

I'll write a report eventually. There were also a few minor misplays I made that didn't end up costing me a match but gave additional outs that shouldn't have existed.

[jake556]

I'm sure this has been discussed before but what about the inclusion of LED? My buddy recently did well in a local tourney with painter and LED. Thoughts?

[Dice_Box]

LED is normally run in the U/x version due to the expanded push on Art Tutors and the mana gain that can be used there and the chance to run Bommerman combos. I have seen it in the older Welder/Fathless builds as well. But the reason, aside from space, that it is not run in the fact that its really not needed. The mana curve is at tops 3*, almost all the cards you draw your going to want to hold and use in the right situation and with all the SOL lands you run, you just don't need the push that the mana gives you. I mean its great to push faster kills, but turn two kills off two SOL lands are easy enough as it is. Why do we need this card?

*Walkers and Rakka aside.

[Jungian Thing]

Kap'n, thanks for the responses! Hey, slightly ot but what was with all the cash thrown on the table at the end of the footage? It was badass! And magic is never badass.

[Nysrol]

So my question is rather simple. With the raw power of painter in today’s meta, and the results (much of which are from the Kap'n) When are we no longer considered an "Established deck" and moved into "Decks to Beat" though I assume we would get a lot more hate once we move to the form every one reads.

[Rampart]

So my question is rather simple. With the raw power of painter in today’s meta, and the results (much of which are from the Kap'n) When are we no longer considered an "Established deck" and moved into "Decks to Beat" though I assume we would get a lot more hate once we move to the form every one reads.

The "Deck to Beat" status is reserved for the highest concentration of deck types that finish well. For example last month Team America had 43 top finishes and painter (all painter variants) had 8. For painter to make that jump there would need to a lot more top 8 appearances which is difficult due to a lot of factors like cost/scarcity among others for this deck. Painter is a fringe deck, although a cool one it will probably never make that jump.

Jack,

when are you posting a report?

[Kap'n Cook]

It'll be finished tonight.

[Jungian Thing]

The "Deck to Beat" status is reserved for the highest concentration of deck types that finish well. For example last month Team America had 43 top finishes and painter (all painter variants) had 8. For painter to make that jump there would need to a lot more top 8 appearances which is difficult due to a lot of factors like cost/scarcity among others for this deck. Painter is a fringe deck, although a cool one it will probably never make that jump.

Interestingly though, this deck is one of the cheapest legacy decks placing atm, particularly the mono red version. Recruiters (judge foils) can be picked up for $70-$80. The white splash makes it dearer but still not in the range of a good many decks.

[Nysrol]

Interestingly though, this deck is one of the cheapest legacy decks placing atm, particularly the mono red version. Recruiters (judge foils) can be picked up for $70-$80. The white splash makes it dearer but still not in the range of a good many decks.

I can defanitly attest to this, I picked painter based on a judge friend mentioning the deck a few months back. I have been buying the peices over say the last month and a half and have spent around 375$ and am now 7 cards (3x City and 4x IRecruitor) from compleating the mono red deck... also in that 375 I have picked up about 30$ in odds and ends that could be used in a white splash if i go that route later on

[Rampart]

Interestingly though, this deck is one of the cheapest legacy decks placing atm, particularly the mono red version. Recruiters (judge foils) can be picked up for $70-$80. The white splash makes it dearer but still not in the range of a good many decks.

I think its a very affordable deck at the moment, but its not exactly a budget deck either. I think the real issue with buying into this deck is that it doesn't really branch out into any of the others strategies once the investment has been made, Its not like your investing into manabases (duals or other staples) that can port into completely different strategies if you get board.

[civet five]

Plateaus are cheap though - cheaper than Arid Mesas even!

[Nysrol]

I think its a very affordable deck at the moment, but its not exactly a budget deck either. I think the real issue with buying into this deck is that it doesn't really branch out into any of the others strategies once the investment has been made, Its not like your investing into manabases (duals or other staples) that can port into completely different strategies if you get board.

Your biggest cost card is a little niche, but the SOL lands can be used in other decks same thing with moons and magus (they also transfer into modern staples in the current meta) most of the side board is modern staples (Canonist, bridges, bolts, graft diggers ect) and if you really wana go into it Welder is a vintage champ.

All in all yes it wont transition as well as all the blue decks...but why do you need to? its so good!

[Rampart]

Your biggest cost card is a little niche, but the SOL lands can be used in other decks same thing with moons and magus (they also transfer into modern staples in the current meta) most of the side board is modern staples (Canonist, bridges, bolts, graft diggers ect) and if you really wana go into it Welder is a vintage champ.

All in all yes it wont transition as well as all the blue decks...but why do you need to? its so good!

We'll yeah, but my comment was on why painter will most likely not be the decks to beat section

[Kap'n Cook]

Enjoy:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27659-Slinging-Blue-Sky-at-Tales-of-Adventure&p=795609#post795609

[Jungian Thing]

Enjoy:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27659-Slinging-Blue-Sky-at-Tales-of-Adventure&p=795609#post795609

Enjoyed.

[phoenix4]

Enjoy:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27659-Slinging-Blue-Sky-at-Tales-of-Adventure&p=795609#post795609

Fantastic :D

[zangoasyl]

Enjoy:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27659-Slinging-Blue-Sky-at-Tales-of-Adventure&p=795609#post795609

awesome!
And congrats!

[drude1]

Well played. So I run a very similar main list substituting a peacekeeper for one of your revokers and swapped one of the tops for a third tutor. Do you feel 2 tutors is the right number? Was there ever a time you didn't want to draw one? Obviously tops are also good. But especially in boarded games where you are looking for silver bullets (eg a moon or a rip) they seem so good on turn one.


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[spector14]

Hi guys! I have a question to do:
do you think is better chandra, pyromaster or Koth the hammer in mono-red list?

[Dice_Box]

Koth for me personally. I like having the damage to end the game while I have a bridge up. The Mana boost can be dam fine too at times. Like when you need to empty your hand.

[phoenix4]

Koth for me personally. I like having the damage to end the game while I have a bridge up. The Mana boost can be dam fine too at times. Like when you need to empty your hand.

I second that... I Can see, why one would throw chandra in, but at the end of the Day, koth wins :)

[Ish]

Anyone play around with From Ashes from the new commander decks? Beyond blood moon could it have any merit in the SB?

Also: congrats Seth... Awesome results lately. Gonna try running your MB card for card.



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[phoenix4]

Anyone play around with From Ashes from the new commander decks? Beyond blood moon could it have any merit in the SB?

Also: congrats Seth... Awesome results lately. Gonna try running your MB card for card.



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I can't really see, why you would play this? :S
I mean... What MU's would you possibly want it in? :O

[Ish]

I can't really see, why you would play this? :S
I mean... What MU's would you possibly want it in? :O

That's why I'm unsure. But just wondering is anyone else analyzed the card. It's an Armageddon against a lot of decks.


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[phoenix4]

That's why I'm unsure. But just wondering is anyone else analyzed the card. It's an Armageddon against a lot of decks.


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Yeah, but doesn't the moon effects cover you there? I mean, for sure they still have lands, but 9 out of 10 decks kan use the red for anything? :D

[Dice_Box]

I don't like it. We have the best mana lock in the game already, I see no reason to start letting people look for basics.

[LeoCop 90]

Why ever mention from the ashes when Ruination exists ? If you really hate non basic lands, play it.

[Ish]

Yep. Concensus is that it's bad.

But reason over ruination is that it's a one sided armageddon.

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[Etched]

Just wanted to let you folks know that Joe Lossett is streaming with the R/W version of the deck right now against the mirror. Here: http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79

[Moomba]

lol Cook, giving him that win against the bad Sneak and Show player

[jandax]

I second that... I Can see, why one would throw chandra in, but at the end of the Day, koth wins :)

I've had this conversation more than one time with the guy who introduced me to Painter.

Koth vs Chandra.

To me it comes down to metagames. On one hand, in the American meta I believe Chandra to be an equal, if not better, planeswalker than Koth. For some reason, whenever Painter does well in an SCG open, people always seem to focus on the two Chandras in the deck, nevermind the other 73 cards. As a result, the card has gone up in price because of the lime light. Koth, on the other hand, is a big ass threat that can't be left unchecked. His abilities dwarf Chandras, attacking for 4 verses nugging for 1, mana ramp verses exile-top-card-and-maybe-play-it (for a deck with little library manipulation), machine gun ultimate verses vanilla mind's desire ultimate. For a deck that wants a back up plan should the combo not work, Koth is a better plan B than Chandra in the European meta. Koth's ultimate, should he ever stay on board long enough to tick up to it, basically ends the game given one isn't dead on board or some other long shot scenario. Koth is great against three color decks, popular in both metagames, and above all, he's great behind one of our strongest prison cards; Ensnaring Bridge.

Let's not forget what Seth wrote back 10 pages or so- We seem to be getting away from the roots of the deck. It is a combo deck first, and foremost. To stray too far away from that theme with too many prison cards and cutsie other choices dilutes the power of the deck. In the end, all we want to be doing is slaming down a Sol land for a Painter's Servant, and the next turn another one for a Grindstone with enough left over to activate it and just fucking kill them. The rest of the deck should ultimately revolve around this priority.

[spector14]

I've had this conversation more than one time with the guy who introduced me to Painter.

Koth vs Chandra.

To me it comes down to metagames. On one hand, in the American meta I believe Chandra to be an equal, if not better, planeswalker than Koth. For some reason, whenever Painter does well in an SCG open, people always seem to focus on the two Chandras in the deck, nevermind the other 73 cards. As a result, the card has gone up in price because of the lime light. Koth, on the other hand, is a big ass threat that can't be left unchecked. His abilities dwarf Chandras, attacking for 4 verses nugging for 1, mana ramp verses exile-top-card-and-maybe-play-it (for a deck with little library manipulation), machine gun ultimate verses vanilla mind's desire ultimate. For a deck that wants a back up plan should the combo not work, Koth is a better plan B than Chandra in the European meta. Koth's ultimate, should he ever stay on board long enough to tick up to it, basically ends the game given one isn't dead on board or some other long shot scenario. Koth is great against three color decks, popular in both metagames, and above all, he's great behind one of our strongest prison cards; Ensnaring Bridge.

Let's not forget what Seth wrote back 10 pages or so- We seem to be getting away from the roots of the deck. It is a combo deck first, and foremost. To stray too far away from that theme with too many prison cards and cutsie other choices dilutes the power of the deck. In the end, all we want to be doing is slaming down a Sol land for a Painter's Servant, and the next turn another one for a Grindstone with enough left over to activate it and just fucking kill them. The rest of the deck should ultimately revolve around this priority.


very interesting your answer! However I have one question for you!
you explain how in American meta is better chandra and for european mega is better koth! Who so you Think is better planswalker against midrange, control or tempo deck and why? I have the combo because I assume they go side out whatever!



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[jandax]

Chandra gets more value when there's something worth pinging. Decks like Death and Taxes, BUG, Maverick and other small creature decks actually have something to lose to the one damage. Chandra's ultimate also doesn't maximize Painter's chance of winning because look at all the instants and sorceries we play; Pyroblasts/Red Elemental Blasts, sometimes Lightning Bolt or Magma Jet, and that's about it. This four mana planeswalker doesn't do much for our game plan. But I'm trying to be objective, maybe I miss something about the card...

Koth, however, does just about everything we could want. Against other planeswalkers, he's a beast. The manland plus ability beats up on just about any other planeswalker that sees play in Legacy. You can cast him then empty your hand with the minus ability, fueling the combo itself as presenting a threat to soak up a counter or removal spell, or you can lower your hand size if you have a bridge out and keep the enemy at bay. His ultimate is basically game, although I have never had the pleasure of firing it off.

As a mono red player I'm only speaking on that behalf.

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

Maybe I will try this deck tomorrow on an online tournament with prizes, but I've some doubt about the sideboarding, in particular with the GP decklist. Anyone can explain the way to sideboarding?

[jandax]

What ever you do, do not look at the front page. Ever.

[spector14]

Chandra gets more value when there's something worth pinging. Decks like Death and Taxes, BUG, Maverick and other small creature decks actually have something to lose to the one damage. Chandra's ultimate also doesn't maximize Painter's chance of winning because look at all the instants and sorceries we play; Pyroblasts/Red Elemental Blasts, sometimes Lightning Bolt or Magma Jet, and that's about it. This four mana planeswalker doesn't do much for our game plan. But I'm trying to be objective, maybe I miss something about the card...

Koth, however, does just about everything we could want. Against other planeswalkers, he's a beast. The manland plus ability beats up on just about any other planeswalker that sees play in Legacy. You can cast him then empty your hand with the minus ability, fueling the combo itself as presenting a threat to soak up a counter or removal spell, or you can lower your hand size if you have a bridge out and keep the enemy at bay. His ultimate is basically game, although I have never had the pleasure of firing it off.

As a mono red player I'm only speaking on that behalf.

ok have you been clear!!
I can play the 2 x in maindeck or are too many?


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[jandax]

Two seems to be a good number. It's a four mana spell, after all. And this deck sometimes doesn't get up to that number. One is definitely okay, with one in the side, but I wouldn't go over two MD

[Nysrol]

Chandra gets more value when there's something worth pinging. Decks like Death and Taxes, BUG, Maverick and other small creature decks actually have something to lose to the one damage. Chandra's ultimate also doesn't maximize Painter's chance of winning because look at all the instants and sorceries we play; Pyroblasts/Red Elemental Blasts, sometimes Lightning Bolt or Magma Jet, and that's about it. This four mana planeswalker doesn't do much for our game plan. But I'm trying to be objective, maybe I miss something about the card...

Koth, however, does just about everything we could want. Against other planeswalkers, he's a beast. The manland plus ability beats up on just about any other planeswalker that sees play in Legacy. You can cast him then empty your hand with the minus ability, fueling the combo itself as presenting a threat to soak up a counter or removal spell, or you can lower your hand size if you have a bridge out and keep the enemy at bay. His ultimate is basically game, although I have never had the pleasure of firing it off.

As a mono red player I'm only speaking on that behalf.

As fellow person who plays mono red I run 1 koth main 1 board. I have ultimated Koth a good few times for the poked to death. It is very rewarded

[jandax]

I'm jelly.

In my experience with koth, the opponents drop their gameplan and deal with him ASAP, so he's been more of a Jersey barrier than a threat for me. I'll ultimate him one day, though. Feel good, indeed

[jake556]

I'm curious as this comes up a lot, if you have the combo on board with mana available to activate when do you grind? Your turn? Their Upkeep? Doesn't really matter? Also same board state but you know your opponent play removal Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, etc.... and has mana available. Do you just wait to draw enough REB/Pyroblast? Too often I find myself grinding the opponent just to have Painter take a digger. Obviously any good player your playing against wont remove Painter when you have mana available to activate in resp. Maybe I just need to be more patient lol

[jandax]

Seems like you answered your own question. If you can wait, wait. Drawing into a second Painter or a blast to protect it would be idea, but you can also wait and respond to their plays provided they aren't killing you right then. Sometimes they'll just have it and have another one in response to the blast you drew to protect it. These things happen, but when you have the combo out you can win at instant speed. Yet, that doesn't mean you should always go for it because more often than not you'll walk right in to one of their outters.

[jandax]

Oh yeah, Jack, empty your damn inbox

one love

[miguelmatix]

Hello Servants of the :r: Empire.

I've been thinking about this strategie and wonder if Firestorm isn't something we could use in this deck (like 2 copies). It machine guns several targets and helps the lock with bridge.
It can also be used in welder-friendly lists to increase the graveyard potential.

Cheers.

[jandax]

Welder doesn't abuse the graveyard as much in this deck. You can run all the Firestorms you want but it won't have the same effect as it has in Dredge, for example. Firebolt is your best bet for card advantage and removal.

[Dice_Box]

I would be more inclined to go back to the old Faithless builds if you where going to abuse the grave.

Welder is a useful tool that must be answered. That's all he is there for. Its great when you have two and you can weld a Bridge in and out so you can attack. Add in a Top for card draw.

[Jungian Thing]

Hey there,

With Revoker in some builds, I thought you guys might find Barbed Blightning's Revoker Bible helpful:

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/546829-scd-the-phyrexian-revoker-guide

[Etched]

Did you guys make top 8? Twitch is being weird for me, but I assume Reuben or someone else snuck in there.

[phoenix4]

Did you guys make top 8? Twitch is being weird for me, but I assume Reuben or someone else snuck in there.

Nope... Mox Ruby did not go to the top 8 :P

[Kap'n Cook]

For anyone who didn't see, Reuben ran my list (shortcake) -4 firebolt +4 lightning bolt and -1 Koth +1 Chandra.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=64123

The losses were to Goblins and e tutor miracles.
I did see that he was looking for firebolts before the event, though. Still don't like the Chandra thing but to each his own.

[jandax]

Has there ever been an sensable defense to running Chandra in iPainter? I just don't get it

[Jelmerz77]

Has there ever been an sensable defense to running Chandra in iPainter? I just don't get it

Lol, dejavu... I can see getting behind it. You don't. Personal preference I guess. The +1 and the 0 ability are pretty decent.

[jandax]

Yeah but how extra cards can we pay for at sorcery speed (0: activation ability) that are worth not ticking it up Chandra instead? And how is the ultimate that much more relevant than Koth's? Plus, koth ultimates faster. Please help me see what you see in the card!

[LeoCop 90]

I'm not an expert of this deck , but the arguments for chandra seem pretty obvious. She helps finding the combo pieces with her 0 ability , and this is very good for a combo deck. She also protects herself better than koth with her +1, although it is a situational ability since she can only kill x/1 creatures.

On the other hand koth is a big threath on its own and its ultimate means game also under an ensnaring bridge. Overall i think koth is better.

[mcbain]

Chandra is often game under an ensnaring bridge too. Nice griselbrand.... I'll swing past it with my phyrexian revoker.

Having played with both, cloth is faster but often accomplishes the same goal.

(Currently playing koth)

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[phoenix4]

You're playing painter... You're up against MonoU OmniTell.... What is your current boardplan?

[mcbain]

Omnitell is my least favorite matchup. I often bring in thorns, red blast. If your RW the bring in 3sphere and canonist. Generally I hold bridge in hand for the show and tell. Your on the dude plan this game.

Bring out 2-3 stone, play 2 bridge, I sometimes take out a welder and recruiter.

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[Kap'n Cook]

For rw out come all moons, revokers, 1 stone, for grave hate for three card combo, blasts, storm hate, and koth.

If you're on Seth's list it's way easier. Just take out the moons and bring in helm peace and other cards to help aggro.

[Ish]

You're playing painter... You're up against MonoU OmniTell.... What is your current boardplan?

Lose!

That's a miserable matchup. Red Blasts are your only out most of the time. Or really good luck and they don't combo for 10 turns and you beat em down with a revoker.

If you have RIP or Tormod's crypt you can 3 card combo them. That's probably the best plan. But Omnitell is a much better 3-card combo deck.


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[drude1]

You're playing painter... You're up against MonoU OmniTell.... What is your current boardplan?

This is the reason to play white with as many e.tutors as reasonable (I play 3). Turn one tutor, turn 2 hate. You have to mulligan aggressively or lose. I've tested this matchup a lot as I played omnitell a lot recently until getting the cards for painter. It's a bad matchup for painter, but if you land a canonist or 3sphere early you can get there.


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[mcbain]

I must be alone on this but I very often leave two moons in against decks most people don't. Burn, omni for instance Quite often a moon slows someone down, prevents them from abusing shuffle effects. Against burn it let's you not die to ancient tombs. It can also help develop your mana base in games which might go longer.

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[Ish]

I think we can easily forget the purpose of this deck sometimes.

The "reason" to play white is not hate cards. It's to establish a more reliable and faster combo!

The fact that e tutor can grab hate cards in certain situations is relegated to a "bonus" of playing white.


If your goal is to slam hate cards then play Dragon/Tribal Stompy.

This deck is at its heart a combo centric deck.


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[phoenix4]

I've tested against a friend, playing MonoU OmniTell, and it seems for the MonoR version of Painter, to either:
A) Throw in Tormod's Crypt's
or B) Board out Grindstones and Blood Moons and go for the beatdown..

But then again, not a good MU, but I'm all about thinking the best line of play against them :D

[drude1]

I think we can easily forget the purpose of this deck sometimes.

The "reason" to play white is not hate cards. It's to establish a more reliable and faster combo!

The fact that e tutor can grab hate cards in certain situations is relegated to a "bonus" of playing white.


If your goal is to slam hate cards then play Dragon/Tribal Stompy.

This deck is at its heart a combo centric deck.


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The problem is, you can't just "combo" against Omnitell, as they have Emrakul. And like stated above, their three card combo is way faster and naturally resistant to ours. So this is one matchup that you have to alter your game plan. But, tutors are good at fetching up silver bullets and can work double duty in this particular case. Otherwise I would generally agree with you.

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[Jungian Thing]

I play the white splash and was playing against Zombardment, we played many games and I lost only one. The game I lost, had me blood moon out, sitting behind a bridge, with bombardment revoked waiting for a grindstone, the game was all but mine. Then I drew an eTutor and was unable to play it and he attacked, then I drew the other and in three short turns I was lost.

I think it was a sideboard error. My hypothesis is that when bridge is a core piece against weenies then board out tutors and possibly REBs. Is this correct?

[Kap'n Cook]

I play the white splash and was playing against Zombardment, we played many games and I lost only one. The game I lost, had me blood moon out, sitting behind a bridge, with bombardment revoked waiting for a grindstone, the game was all but mine. Then I drew an eTutor and was unable to play it and he attacked, then I drew the other and in three short turns I was lost.

I think it was a sideboard error. My hypothesis is that when bridge is a core piece against weenies then board out tutors and possibly REBs. Is this correct?

And how many games did tutor find you a rip, moon, bridge, or combo piece out of 'a bunch of games'

I mean it's just some variance at the end of the day. Shit happens and it's certainly a risk to splashing with moon. Taking out reb isn't the worst and I could see that being okay.

[drude1]

I play the white splash and was playing against Zombardment, we played many games and I lost only one. The game I lost, had me blood moon out, sitting behind a bridge, with bombardment revoked waiting for a grindstone, the game was all but mine. Then I drew an eTutor and was unable to play it and he attacked, then I drew the other and in three short turns I was lost.

I think it was a sideboard error. My hypothesis is that when bridge is a core piece against weenies then board out tutors and possibly REBs. Is this correct?

You also have the option of playing and fetching one basic plains and/or playing more lotus petals if you are really worried about casting your e.tutors.

I have a question about playing a semi-sustainable form of creature removal (eg lavamancer or cursed scroll) in place of one firebolt in the board. Anyone try it?


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[Jungian Thing]

And how many games did tutor find you a rip, moon, bridge, or combo piece out of 'a bunch of games'

I mean it's just some variance at the end of the day. Shit happens and it's certainly a risk to splashing with moon. Taking out reb isn't the worst and I could see that being okay.

Of course the tutor was strong in the other matches it sped up victory. I just find I learn more from my losses than victories. I am still at the experience level where I can't tell the shit happening from the poor decision making. I have no intention of removing the white splash. (I have played white since 1994, it's mine!)

I just want to improve my performances by improving my decisions in both mulligan and sideboard, I am not saying my gameplay is immaculate but gameplay errors for me are less about having a grip on the deck and more about broader meta knowledge, poor concentration, tiredness and tilting. Ironically my worst tilt is the I-have-this-won tilt where I increase my risk tolerance and make evermore speculative plays.

And, thanks for responding!

[Kap'n Cook]

I have a question about playing a semi-sustainable form of creature removal (eg lavamancer or cursed scroll) in place of one firebolt in the board.

Umm well we do run jaya. So maybe add another since it has the broadest application

[jandax]

Having a MD and SB Jaya is probably never wrong. She gets stuff done

[GundamGuy]

You also have the option of playing and fetching one basic plains and/or playing more lotus petals if you are really worried about casting your e.tutors.

I have a question about playing a semi-sustainable form of creature removal (eg lavamancer or cursed scroll) in place of one firebolt in the board. Anyone try it?


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If you are going to try this, I would think you'd want something like cursed scroll, and not Grim since as other people pointed out Jaya is already in your deck... (it is right? :eek:) and the cards that can deal with Jaya can deal with Grim.

Maybe there is something else out there to consider as well. Not sure.

[civet five]

I like the idea of Cursed Scroll because it also can be searched up with ETutor, but I have run into instances where being able to bluff a blast in hand has been helpful and Cursed Scroll is the ultimate anti-bluff

[jandax]

Just don't run Cursed Scroll. Even though its my all time fav card ever, it's a dissynergy with the deck. Jaya is the way to go.

[Moomba]

I play the white splash and was playing against Zombardment, we played many games and I lost only one. The game I lost, had me blood moon out, sitting behind a bridge, with bombardment revoked waiting for a grindstone, the game was all but mine. Then I drew an eTutor and was unable to play it and he attacked, then I drew the other and in three short turns I was lost.

I think it was a sideboard error. My hypothesis is that when bridge is a core piece against weenies then board out tutors and possibly REBs. Is this correct?

Can also run a back up Jaya in the board if you want in this situation as Jaya rips the useless cards out of your hand to keep bridge count low.

[phoenix4]

Can also run a back up Jaya in the board if you want in this situation as Jaya rips the useless cards out of your hand to keep bridge count low.

I don't think you want 2x Jaya in the 75 :P

[Moomba]

I don't think you want 2x Jaya in the 75 :P

I personally don't but some people have in the past and I'm sure still might.

[phoenix4]

I personally don't but some people have in the past and I'm sure still might.

Well yeah, and it's not like I'm in the middle of shooting the concept down or anything, if it works in certain people's local meta, they should do it by all means.

But I'm personally more of a "silver-bullet-kinda-guy" :D

I'm just having so much pain, whether or not to include a Spellskite in the MB or SB.... Can't really see, if it's worth it (Although Gregg Smith did it with success, last time) :)

[rancOr_]

Spellskite is not needed. It's not bad but u rly don't need it and spots are tight already. Same goes for the 2nd jaya sb. Takes the slots of firebolt/sudden demise and I'd rather have those

[phoenix4]

Spellskite is not needed. It's not bad but u rly don't need it and spots are tight already. Same goes for the 2nd jaya sb. Takes the slots of firebolt/sudden demise and I'd rather have those

@rancOr_: How many Sudden Demise do you have, SB?

[jandax]

I don't think you want 2x Jaya in the 75 :P

It's not clunky at all, in matches where she's good she can get killed so a backup is nice.

[rancOr_]

I'm running a split of 2 sudden demise and 2 firebolt as I still want access to some mass removal.

[jandax]

Hell I'd not really run less than four Firebolt, and supplement it with Sudden Demise. Four of a card is just enough for Mono Red. We run more than four Moons and Blasts for this reason.

[drude1]

Yet another question... For the white splashes, any thought on Ajani Vengeant as the 1-2 of planeswalker? I just like that it protects itself.


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[jandax]

You're trying to get away from the deck's premise. It's a Painter/Stone combo deck. The white is only there to facilitate that combo, and expedite silver bullets.

[drude1]

No, I get the purpose of the deck completely. The core of the deck is set and I understand how it is played. That's why I'm more interested in the corner cases and the flex cards. If it was ONLY about the combo, then why not play 4 e.tutor, 4 top, etc. and maybe that's the way to go. I'm just wondering if anyone has had experience with some of these other cads.


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[jandax]

Well, it has been decided that even a single Plains clunks the deck up, so only four expendable white sources for a four mana planeswalker is probably not what the deck wants, when looking at it like that. I see where you're going with the logic, but I'm operating under the assumption (fact) that Seth/Jack have their lists tuned as best as possible, so all cards not included are sub par. Depends on your meta, though. Ajani is a sweet card that protects itself, it has merrit.

[The Duressed]

Having a hard time casting it is not a sufficient reason. If casting a planeswalker with W in the casting cost is enough to seal up the game, you will put yourself in a position to have that mana ready. Whether it's an enlightened tutor, an ethersworn canonist, or a rest in peace, making sure you have a W to use is something this deck is very much able to accomplish.

Like you, my initial response was "no, that's not good enough." However, when is seriously started thinking about why, I had a hard time articulating any real reason. Looking deeper into the issue led me to comparing it against the other cards it would be fighting for a slot.

Being a four-cost planeswalker, the natural cards to compare it to are Koth and Chandra. I would say that Koth is better if you need a supplement to your attack strategy (if you run out of steam against control, for example), and Ajani is obviously better if you need help on defense. However, I think Ajani is badly beaten out by Ensnaring Bridge as a defensive strategy. Chandra is still a card I'm struggling to fully understand, but if I had to pick a scenario where I want it in play I'd start with a deck like BUG with a relatively slow gameplan and a relatively high number of 1-toughness guys (both factors, not just one). That's something that's getting less common these days, at least in my area.

Given this cursory analysis, I would probably go with Koth or ensnaring bridge. Ajani isn't a card I would completely rule out. The ability to tap down lands is good against almost any deck in the format, so the card is never really dead. Then again, you can say something similar about Chandra.

[jandax]

That's a solid point, I suppose that is what I was trying to ask in hindsight, but went about it the wrong way. In the end, it comes down to being a question of being good enough. I'd definitely play it over Chandra, that much I can say.

[phoenix4]

So I was hoping to get some feedback from you guys, here roughly 2 months before Bazaar of Moxen 9.

A few weeks back, I peeked at my local legacy tournament, providing a perfect 6-0 record (6 rounds swiss, obviously) with the MonoR version of iPainter. But since then, I've had a few problems establishing a solid grip on my opponents - since everybody knows I'm playing the deck. So I've changed my deck a little and was hoping that you guys would comment on pro's and con's with this particular list:

Mainboard
6x Mountains
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors

4x Painter's Servant
4x Grindstone
3x Pyroblast
3x Red Elemental Blast
4x Blood Moon
3x Magus of the Moon
4x Imperial Recruiter
4x Simian Spirit Guide
1z Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Lotus Petal
1x Chrome Mox
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Gitaxian Probe

Sideboard
4x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Manic Vandal
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Koth of the Hammer
3x Pyrokinesis
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast

So... In games, I've had problems not being able to get a "fresh" top 3 of cards, since I didn't have fetchlands in my former build. I'm trying to correct that now, by throwing 4 Scalding Tarns in it.. But I don't know if 4 is flooding the deck or 3 should be right number?

Also I'm trying a one off Bridge in the main, to have a little more game against SneakyShow on game 1.

Other than that, it's pretty standard..

I'd like to know, what you think of it. Any feedback is appreciated, since i'm building the deck towards BoM9 in under 2 months time :)

[jandax]

Dude, look at my list on the front page, it seems like you're going in that direction. Plus, this is a deck that attacks a metagame. How exactly are you attacking your metagame [wiht this list]?

[yugular]

What is the role of Goblin Welder in the lists that run it? Just to recur key artifacts in some matchups? And should it be a maindeck or sideboard card?

[Hopo]

What is the role of Goblin Welder in the lists that run it? Just to recur key artifacts in some matchups? And should it be a maindeck or sideboard card?

As a 1-of tutor target it helps to fight removal. Randomly drawing it with Grindstone in play gives you the possibility to mill yourself to get Painter in play from your graveyard. It might come in handy against equipment as well. To me the correct number is one in main deck. As has been said, it is the most powerful single card in the deck and usually has to be answered fast. Still, the deck absolutely does not need one. Therefore I opt for a single copy, just for the sake of having options, especially under Ensnaring bridge. If you play mono red with Gamble, you likely want more Welders.

[phoenix4]

Dude, look at my list on the front page, it seems like you're going in that direction. Plus, this is a deck that attacks a metagame. How exactly are you attacking your metagame [wiht this list]?

Your list on the front page? :P

[sroncor1]

Lots of great ideas guys. I like that people are putting the white splash to the fire and I have a bunch of thoughts on lots of the questions being asked. Since I'm no longer working on the NICU I'll try my best to answer most of them as much of the testing for them has been done.

Seth

[sroncor1]

Lots of great ideas guys. I like that people are putting the white splash to the fire and I have a bunch of thoughts on lots of the questions being asked. Since I'm no longer working on the NICU I'll try my best to answer most of them as much of the testing for them has been done.

Seth

[Nysrol]

So I have the white splash coming in the mail in the next few days, but I am left wondering why only 2 tutors? I'm sure lots of testing went into this number but it seems like it is tutor 1-2 for grind stone and 5-6 for painter. why not get it up to 4 and lose 1 reb and 1 top?

[Kap'n Cook]

So I have the white splash coming in the mail in the next few days, but I am left wondering why only 2 tutors? I'm sure lots of testing went into this number but it seems like it is tutor 1-2 for grind stone and 5-6 for painter. why not get it up to 4 and lose 1 reb and 1 top?

It's certainly an option. I only run 2 because I just swapped them in for my 2x faithless looting. I've done pretty well with the current configuration so I figured why change anything when it's been working. Seth runs 3 tutors (2 tops) and has done well too. He is considering the 4th tutor also. I would say go ahead and run 3-4 and see where it takes you.

[Ish]

So I have the white splash coming in the mail in the next few days, but I am left wondering why only 2 tutors? I'm sure lots of testing went into this number but it seems like it is tutor 1-2 for grind stone and 5-6 for painter. why not get it up to 4 and lose 1 reb and 1 top?

Ok... So I've been back and forth with 2-3 or even 4 tutors.

However, I think Jack is 100% correct in only 2 tutors.

My reasoning is that you don't want to draw the tutors necessarily, you'd rather just have the combo pieces. So by 2 tutors technically you just have 6 chances of drawing grind/painter. Then there's just the bonus of it fetching hate / lock cards if needed to survive or force the combo.

I played Jack's 60 MB this past weekend in side events in Richmond. Absolutely loved everything about it. Just tailoring the SB to my likes, but nothing revolutionary. I do like a helm to go with the RIPs.

I beat 2 Sneak Attack decks in a side event (bridge, revoker, RIP, combo win in all 4 games won). I got a little nervous about echoing truth bouncing 1 or multiple bridges. I'm thinking of playing 1 peacekeeper in the side to possibly protect against echoing truth.




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[jandax]

Your list on the front page? :P

Yup, and thanks to Seth/Jack I got a 10k+ word primer on MonoR/Rw Painter coming out. Will link when publsihed

[GundamGuy]

Yup, and thanks to Seth/Jack I got a 10k+ word primer on MonoR/Rw Painter coming out. Will link when publsihed

Excited to see the primer, I was at GP Richmond (not playing any legacy side events though) and picked up some stuff for the white splash, just in case I want to play it.

What I'd love to see is a breakdown of when you would want to play MonoR vs RW, and why.

A couple of notes, now that I know the list just replaced Faithless Looting with Enlightened Tutor it makes sense that you've got 3 Goblin Welders in the main. It seems like there could be room to reduce that to two or one, and put something else in that spot main deck, maybe, it also makes sense to run a Great Furnace with 3 Goblin Welders but if you reduce your welders it might make sense to reconsider that slot.

Also since we are talking about R/W tech, any discussion about Spirit of the Labyrinth? Can't be found with Imperial Recruiter, but can be Found with Enlighten Tutor...

[Kap'n Cook]

Excited to see the primer, I was at GP Richmond (not playing any legacy side events though) and picked up some stuff for the white splash, just in case I want to play it.

What I'd love to see is a breakdown of when you would want to play MonoR vs RW, and why.

A couple of notes, now that I know the list just replaced Faithless Looting with Enlightened Tutor it makes sense that you've got 3 Goblin Welders in the main. It seems like there could be room to reduce that to two or one, and put something else in that spot main deck, maybe, it also makes sense to run a Great Furnace with 3 Goblin Welders but if you reduce your welders it might make sense to reconsider that slot.

Also since we are talking about R/W tech, any discussion about Spirit of the Labyrinth? Can't be found with Imperial Recruiter, but can be Found with Enlighten Tutor...


I'm not going below 3 welders since it solves so many issues. Counters, discard, decay, bolt, liliana, chalice etc. I want to draw one naturally so three it is. The first will probably die so no biggie. It's also a tempo play since welder gets respect and the opponent kills it right away. If it lives then great, I get to protect the combo pieces and bridge.

When asking about painter before the GP, lejay asked about spirit as well. My response to him and others is why? What matchup is it solving that isn't good already?

[sroncor1]

Sent from my iPadOk great thoughts and ideas guys. About the number of welders, I think the correct number is somewhere between 2-4. You hardly ever want to tutor for him but sometimes that is the only way to get a grindstone. He is a must answer card bc he turns off discard and counters like Jack said. I imagine there is a proper list with 4 welders but I am not sure of the other 56. I have often toyed around with a third either in the main and in the board. If I were to add another welder main to my list I would really want two more artifacts main, which is how Jack's list is built to optimize welder.

About Ajani, it's funny, Jack mentioned him just the other day. He is strong however, I would feel really bad about using your window of a white source to cast him. He doesn't really win the game so much as augment your own game plan. It's for that reason I think he would be a far third behind Koth and Chandra.

About the number of E tutor in the list. I will not lie I stole 3 from Hollywood many years ago. I have toyed with more but never really tested the idea. The basically idea is that you want four copies of any card if you want to draw it every game, 3 if you only want one copy every game at most, and 1 as a tutor able target. I'm no longer sure why you would play two copies of a card unless that is basically all you have room for sort of like my list and SDT. I would love three in a perfect world but I don't have room. So I run 2. But since I've cut to 2 I've toyed with dropping them completely bc you draw them so infrequently when it matters that you forget their utility. I am not sure if the e tutor count should be 2-4, but I have always tested three based on I want to see it but I would prefer not seeing it twice in one game.

If anyone is looking to build the mana base for a white splash start with my list. Then modify from there. There really is no need for a basic plains and I think if you play enough you will see it is pretty stable. I have gone back and forth on the great furnace. I think you should def run the artifact land if you run 7 sol lands, just knowing you are losing a small amount of explosiveness for greater utility. In the 8 sol land list( like I run) I am less sure of that. Maybe it is small sample size but I have been hurt in recent weeks by the furnace and would have wine a couple more matches and basically several hundred dollars if it had been a mountain.

Just a few thoughts.

Btw Jandax's primer is pretty spot on and is a great jumping on point for anyone as it is fairly up to date with the ever changing meta. And the third part may be the best and is something I want to continue to work on with him as I think it is both an amazing idea and a very valuable reference( I know David I haven't even talked with you yet about it)

Seth

[jandax]

They should be published in full over the next coming three weeks, so I'll link them to the OP for Jack to update. I agree, the third section should be an on going list to which we should constantly amend. If it gets too messy on the OP, we can always start another thread with a tight first page that contains everything.

[cab0747]

Hey everyone! I have recently invested in this deck (Rw) on MTGO. Are there any videos of this version in action?

Thanks!

[Kap'n Cook]

Hey everyone! I have recently invested in this deck (Rw) on MTGO. Are there any videos of this version in action?

Thanks!


No videos that really showcase the white strengths. I may start streaming, though

[cab0747]

No videos that really showcase the white strengths. I may start streaming, though

If you do, I will be sure to watch. Keep us (well, me) updated!

[drude1]

So, I've been playing around with top vs tutor numbers on MTGO a lot and it's amazing how much worse the deck got when I cut tops. The biggest problem is that the land count is low enough that the top was the only good way to draw into them I think. I ended up cutting a welder (down to 2) and now play 3 top and 3 etutor and the deck has never ran better. I also put one copy of Ajani in the board, particularly for the miracles matchup and it has been honestly pretty fantastic. I think I will continue to split one Ajani and one Koth in the board.


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[yugular]

No videos that really showcase the white strengths. I may start streaming, though

I would watch! Just make sure to have them available in your accounts history also!

[Nysrol]

I would watch! Just make sure to have them available in your accounts history also!

I concur! i would follow you, that way we can discuss plays on the fly (with 20 seconds of twitch delay)

[GundamGuy]

So, I've been playing around with top vs tutor numbers on MTGO a lot and it's amazing how much worse the deck got when I cut tops. The biggest problem is that the land count is low enough that the top was the only good way to draw into them I think. I ended up cutting a welder (down to 2) and now play 3 top and 3 etutor and the deck has never ran better. I also put one copy of Ajani in the board, particularly for the miracles matchup and it has been honestly pretty fantastic. I think I will continue to split one Ajani and one Koth in the board.

Honestly I still don't get what Ajani Vengeant is accomplishing against the Miracles matchup... What are you tapping which is so critical to them? Also unless Miracles is over represented in your meta I wouldn't devote a sideboard slot specifically to the Miracles match-up.

Other news I maybe playing RW painter this weekend at a SCG invitational qualifier. Might just stick with mono red. I'll let everyone know how it goes either way.

[jandax]

Seth nailed it when he said that ajani is a distant third to Koth and chandra (respectively). Especially in the Miracles matchup, which is glacially slow from their end, Koth can put some real pressure on them.

[Nysrol]

I keep a koth in the main for miricles (a few in my meta) and he has won me a many games when stuck behind there counterbalance

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[drude1]

Okay, I will concede that Ajani may not be worth it. I still like him, but I don't know that I like him enough to take up a valuable slot in the SB. On that subject, one more consideration. I played this deck in a local Legacy tourney last noc, and my match-ups were:

1. Food-Chain combo with 3 Aldrazi guys and crap-tons of elves...auto-lose. Game one I have a revoker on Food-Chain and a bridge in play, but I have no way to win other than finding Jaya and dome him. Well, he found his terrastadon via Empath first and I lose. Game 2 I bring in alt win condition (1 koth + helm/R.I.P.) but he goes off on like turn 3.

2. Reanimator - lose to turn 2 griselbrand 2/3 games.

3. that Dragon-Stompy goblin deck - lose. I have my combo out twice but don't ever get a chance to activate as he has one million answers from searching up with moggcatcher.....drop

Horrible night. For one, really sad I took peacekeeper out of the board, as he would have been really good in the first two match-ups. He just seemed so fragile. Secondly, I know these are not typical match-ups one would see (except Reanimator), but I feel like this deck needs a better answer to other creature combo decks. For one, people are starting to play Pod in legacy. There is also Aluren, sneak/show, reanimator, 12-post and the other decks above. I considered torpor orb in the board, which would help a little. But I don't know if the benefit outweighs the cost of losing our imperial recruiters. Then I considered one copy of Humility, which I think I like. It does also have the draw-back of shutting off some of our own creatures, but the upside against a deck like reanimator or 12 post is huge. It also doesn't shut off our actual combo. I do know it's 2 white, and I would probably have to adjust the mana base a little for it. I also am concerned that it would make all opponent's dudes 1/1 and a swarm could get under bridge. But for the most part, you probably wouldn't bring it in against those decks anyway. It would also make firebolt or sudden demise really good. Just another card to consider. PLEASE don't tell me how I"m getting away from the combo aspect of the deck....I get it. I'm more looking for any experience people have had playing with or against humility. thanks.

p.s. for all you Koth lovers out there, just imagine koth activations with Humility in play!

[jandax]

^ Anyone who plays Humility against Painter deserves to get Kothed to death. And Humility occurs on a level lower (6) than color and ability changes (5), so the timestamp happens after Blood Moon changes non basics into Mountains and Painter makes all things a certain color. Plus, you already play RIP, against Eldrazi and the like, that's a helluva card that supports your main combo

[phoenix4]

^ Anyone who plays Humility against Painter deserves to get Kothed to death.

I'll second that! D:

[mcbain]

Don't be discouraged! Painter is very strong in the real meta right now. As for food chain and dragonstompy (i.e., budget decks) you might have to make some edits to the normal list. Or just force more combo rather than trying to interact.

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[sroncor1]

@Drude1- those were some rough match ups but as others have said that isn't a real meta. Some of those Boucher are terrible, to put it bluntly. You def don't want or need humility. Most likely I would say try a stock white splash list and test the ever loving shit out of it. But this is my advice to basically everyone on the board. Your best chance is to test one of those lists first before trying to innovate as the deck is far more complex than it first appears. If you add to many moving parts while learning how to play the deck you are destined to have trouble.

With the exception of like four or maybe five cards in the 75, I would say at least the shortcake lists are pretty tight and tuned for the entire legacy format. The minor differences between jack and mine are due to the different ways we want to solve similar problems and a slight variation in the way we approach a fee decks. I will leave the monored questions to more capable players

Seth

[jandax]

I die a little every time one of you calls the Rw deck shortcake

[drude1]

^ Anyone who plays Humility against Painter deserves to get Kothed to death. And Humility occurs on a level lower (6) than color and ability changes (5), so the timestamp happens after Blood Moon changes non basics into Mountains and Painter makes all things a certain color. Plus, you already play RIP, against Eldrazi and the like, that's a helluva card that supports your main combo

So I'm confused, is it then your allegation that humility would be a good thing to consider or unnecessary? And if not humility, any other suggestions?


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[Jelmerz77]

So I'm confused, is it then your allegation that humility would be a good thing to consider or unnecessary? And if not humility, any other suggestions?


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I'm sure David was talking about opposing Humilities. A double white card for this deck is not an option....

[Ish]

I die a little every time one of you calls the Rw deck shortcake

sigh... same here

[LeoCop 90]

why exactly do they call it shortcake ? just curious

[Jelmerz77]

why exactly do they call it shortcake ? just curious

Mixing the Red of Imperial Painter with the white splash and you end up with......

This: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_oeUH3FezIUw/S60WA6lt7KI/AAAAAAAAByE/z_2oxBX46VY/s1600/strawberry.jpg

I guess....

[Ish]

Mixing the Red of Imperial Painter with the white splash and you end up with......

This: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_oeUH3FezIUw/S60WA6lt7KI/AAAAAAAAByE/z_2oxBX46VY/s1600/strawberry.jpg

I guess....

oh that just HURTS!

[Nysrol]

I keep a grafdiggers in my board for any of these eldrazi elf or pod decks. Its also ok against reanimator . Worth having one less bridge board

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[Kap'n Cook]

why exactly do they call it shortcake ? just curious


It kinda just popped up. In my tournament report opening here I just threw out a random name since combining colors is apparently tech.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25661-Deck-Imperial-Painter&p=766607&viewfull=1#post766607


Then like a month after that or something Seth independently just started calling it strawberry shortcake and I couldn't really go against the godfather of white. So it just stuck from there lol.

[jandax]

I know legacy gurus have a hard on for naming decks weird things, but this is exactly what Jelmer said; a little cartoon girl name.

How hasn't Enlightened Painter been thrown around? It's much more manly and dignified than that-which-we-should-not-speak-of

[mcbain]

How has that not been thrown around! I like it, has a certain class associated with it.... what?! You poor rug deck that folds to blood moon? Have you not been enlightened?

No basics? Let me enlighten you....



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[Will_L]

Please explain to me how Blood Moon isn't the best card in legacy

[Etched]

Please explain to me how Blood Moon isn't the best card in legacy

It's true, BMoon is a 1 card combo.

[jandax]

Don't go putting Blood Moon up on a pedestal. It's a one card combo, but only when the opponents provide the missing pieces to the combo (lands to shut them off of)

[Ish]

Please explain to me how Blood Moon isn't the best card in legacy

Easy.

When on the play you drop it turn 1 then pass to an opponent who goes "mountain, aether vial, pass"... Doh!

There are plenty of matchups where blood moon isn't the best. Goblins prob just the best example. But I've played many.

Even "real" matchups like DnT and Miracles it's far from any auto win.

But is it good. Hell Yeah! Very good. You play it for the high percentage of matches that it is bonkers or at worst a serious impediment to your opponent.



Oh! and "Enlightened Painter"... I like that!

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[jake556]

Hey kap in the card explanation section was wondering if you could add one on SDT? Unless I missed it somewhere, with so many interactions in the deck it would be a great read thanks.

[Jungian Thing]

Well, here it is my first tournament report for Strawberry Shortcake. I played in the LGS $500 monthly tournament with 30 playing and came 6th in the swiss. I withdrew before the finals because it’s my wedding anniversary and turning up late for a glass of Bollinger with the ‘trouble and strife’ would have been exactly that.

I played Kap’n’s list swapping ratchet bomb for powder keg because there’s a bit of affinity and man-lands and one of the guys in the shop would have lectured me for 10 minutes on why it is better and I wanted to avoid that. Call it a meta call.

Round 1 – Affinity 2-0
Game 1, I start my campaign with all the combo and the lands to power it, I decide to go for it and turn 3 grind him. During sideboarding he conferences with the judges to ask, I subsequently learn, about RIP’s interaction with grindstone, this has the inadvertent result of bringing the judges over to watch… I side in Powder Keg

Game 2, we grind it out, I get stuck on two mountains but am able to cast a bridge and manage to draw one and two drops but no lands, I have the combo in play and he has revoked the grindstone. I get out powder keg and miss the ‘may’ in the wording missing the trigger while the judge is standing over my shoulder, no biggy but he berates me about reading the cards. I am SDTing keeping any three drops out of my hand as best I can and just when the bridge is being raised enough, I get the final land, have a keg party at two killing the revoker and activate grindstone.

Round 2 – Shardless 2-1
Game 1, My opponent has been testing with me for the past couple of weeks and tutoring me on goblin welder chicanery, so it is fitting that with me on 3, looking at lethal, I weld in the painter in response to the grind and win the game. I side in Bridge and REB.

Game 2, I keep a hand with mana and spells but it lacks resolution and I take the beats. No moon, no bridge, no combo, no win.

Game 3, I keep a hand with recruiter, SDT, and grindstone, with enough mana to power it. I decide to go for it again but my stone gets forced and I switch to recruiting a welder, which resolves. I have tomb and mountain in play and blast in hand, top reveals a city and painter. I draw the painter, resolve it off the tomb, top for the city, welding the top on activation for the stone, drop the city and grind. It was the textbook play he walked me through when I first picked up the deck two weeks ago.

Round 3 – Sneak and Show 0-2
Game 1, I have played against this guy before, I know what he is on, he is also the runner up at the recent Melbourne Standard GP, to say I was expecting to win goes beyond optimism. I tell him I am going to win. I win the roll. I had read the primer for this match-up in the morning because this is the one I am most fearful of, it helped keep me off tilt game one… He turn two shows an emrakul, (I attempt the monkey blast but he is having none of that - FOW). I show a grindstone hoping to rip god knows what, which I don’t rip and the annihilator 6 takes my boots, my clothes, my motorcycle. Side in REB and GY hate.

Game 2, gets me a snap keep grip with crypt, rip, mana to cast it, a painter and a blast. I put out the hate and hold the blast, his turn one, volcanic island, petal, petal, petal, sneak attack, pass. WTF! I want to say I ripped a revoker and followed it up with a bridge before assembling the combo to take me to game three, which I take in similar fashion and he extends his hand and says, “Good game sir.” But no, that would be a lie… What he actually says is, “Activate Sneak Attack. Declare Attacks. Annihalator.” I never recover, nay, I will never recover.

Round 4 – Dredge – 2-1
Game 1, I win the roll, I hold a combo rich hand with the mana to cast T1 and activate T2, and grind him turn 2. Side in GY hate.

Game 2, I mull to five into a slower hand, establish a bridge but can’t drop it low enough to stop the zombies. The Zombies!!!!!

Game 3, I keep a GY hate hand with stone and top. I activate crypt end of my turn having set the SDT, grindstone, with a city and painter on top (out of reach of his thought seizes) combo. He doesn’t dredge but thought seizes for a painter that is and isn’t there (MUWHAHAHAHAHA! ha!) and is oblivious to his peril. Peril achieved.

I am now sitting at 4th and in overtime on Anniversary obligations.

Round 5 – Deathblade – 0-2
Game 1, I get an opening text from the wife, “when are you coming home?” My deck refuses to cooperate or even acknowledge that mana is both worthwhile and present. I mull to four, damn you to hell deck. I made you, you will bow to my will, as part of your worship ritual serve me up solid hands first time every time. My first four spells are forced or ploughed, I die to Batterskull. Board in REB and bridge.

Game 2, He plays a tight textbook game. I, on the other hand, keep a seven with moon, tomb, petal, mountain, a bridge, a monkey, recruiter. I get turn one moon on and a turn two bridge and then do not draw a land for the next 7 turns. He gets SFM and a Jitte and then proceeds to attack pump under the bridge until he ultimates lil and makes me choose between a bridge and moon. I choose bridge, which he then decays and I feel so naked.

I withdraw from the finals and head home. My wife and I head out to fine dining and she reminds me why I married her by pulling off believable interest in my babbling about getting into the top 8.

[Ish]

What's the RIP - Grindstone interaction? Shouldn't effect anything for your gameplay other than shutting off welder.




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[Etched]

Question for you guys; do you think that Imperial Painter will rise to be a Tier 1 deck/a large part of the meta? It certainly has good match-ups against a lot of the field, and it has been putting up good results.

[Ish]

Question for you guys; do you think that Imperial Painter will rise to be a Tier 1 deck/a large part of the meta? It certainly has good match-ups against a lot of the field, and it has been putting up good results.

This has been discussed recently. Just look back a few pages.

In short. No. The deck has put up good results but not in enough numbers to become a huge meta threat. The power of the deck will be kept in check by the small number of players bringing it to tournaments.

However, if your definition of tier 1 is simply competitiveness... Than that is just a different conversation. Since tier 1/2 in legacy is always in flux and sometimes very little difference between the two tiers.


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[Kap'n Cook]

The "Deck to Beat" status is reserved for the highest concentration of deck types that finish well. For example last month Team America had 43 top finishes and painter (all painter variants) had 8. For painter to make that jump there would need to a lot more top 8 appearances which is difficult due to a lot of factors like cost/scarcity among others for this deck. Painter is a fringe deck, although a cool one it will probably never make that jump.


Answers the previous question perfectly

edit: Ish sniping

[Ish]

edit: Ish sniping

Lol


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[Jungian Thing]

What's the RIP - Grindstone interaction? Shouldn't effect anything for your gameplay other than shutting off welder.

There is none but I have had it asked a couple of times if grindstone fails because there is no graveyard.

[Michael Keller]

Game 2, we grind it out, I get stuck on two mountains but am able to cast a bridge and manage to draw one and two drops but no lands, I have the combo in play and he has revoked the grindstone. I get out powder keg and miss the ‘may’ in the wording missing the trigger while the judge is standing over my shoulder, no biggy but he berates me about reading the cards. I am SDTing keeping any three drops out of my hand as best I can and just when the bridge is being raised enough, I get the final land, have a keg party at two killing the revoker and activate grindstone.

Wouldn't the activated ability of Keg at two send your Painter(s) packing along with the Revoker, thus nullifying the Grindstone kill here? Or am I missing something...

[Jungian Thing]

Wouldn't the activated ability of Keg at two send your Painter(s) packing along with the Revoker, thus nullifying the Grindstone kill here? Or am I missing something...

You are correct but I have a welder out also and I simply brought my painter back.

[jandax]

There is none but I have had it asked a couple of times if grindstone fails because there is no graveyard.

No, its ability checks the color of the two cards it flips, and then either resolves or continues due to this condition. RiP is brilliant because it allows you to still mill eldrazi with Stone.

[Michael Keller]

Working on a new Painter list; looking forward to slinging 'Blasts again!

[Ish]

Working on a new Painter list; looking forward to slinging 'Blasts again!

I really... REALLY... Encourage anyone who is coming back to, starting anew, or wanting to innovate to play Jack's 60 MD first!!! The deck is fine tuned, tested and proven in the current meta.

I think this forum needs to get back to the "core" deck (i.e. a lot of the main page) and begin discussing flex slots and SB strategies.


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[yugular]

I really... REALLY... Encourage anyone who is coming back to, starting anew, or wanting to innovate to play Jack's 60 MD first!!! The deck is fine tuned, tested and proven in the current meta.

Where is that 60 (+15) to be found? I am in a middle of building this deck, just about 10 cards (magus of the moon, ancient tomb, REB's and some random cards) shy.

[Ish]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27659-Slinging-Blue-Sky-at-Tales-of-Adventure"]Jack ("[url) -- 1/173

Link from the front page

As an aside: the front page could use some clean up. All the right info is there but requires some scrolling back and forth to find what your looking for. Not sure how to approach it though.


But most common things people are looking for is: overview and deck lists. We should have an R and Rw list right towards the top.



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[jake556]

^ And a banner would be nice maybe strawberry shortcake running through a berry patch or something:tongue: No seriously a nice banner would be great.

[GoblinZ]

Working on a new Painter list; looking forward to slinging 'Blasts again!

Welcome back Hollywood! I am looking forwards to your new list!

To others, do you guys find surgical extraction or extirpate a problem afterboard?

[Dice_Box]

I have been calling it Enlightened Painter for a bit. It's actually in my deck list on Salvation. I still play it differently though and have my Tutors in the side. I like to Moon game one against my Meta. There are a free decks where I want Tutor over Moon and normally I take out moons and put them in its place for speed.

On RIP. If RIP is in the table all it does is make Grindstone read like this:
Target player exiles the top two cards of his or her library. If both cards share a color, repeat this process.

Explaines it all really.

Lastly, I want am loving Bridge main. Playing against a mate who has borrowed my deck a few times, game one I drop a bridge and he looks me dead in the eye and asks "Did you pre sideboard?" I laugh and tell him no, he swears and I smile as his Progenifish does not a thing.

[Michael Keller]

You are correct but I have a welder out also and I simply brought my painter back.

Gotcha. Didn't see that.

[sroncor1]

Hollywood, no longer going by Hollywood?! So are you finally coming back to the good guys side or are you still running dredge

Seth

[Michael Keller]

Dipping back into all sorts of fun stuff! I'm working on a few lists that are configured in various ways.

I just miss locking people out with Blood Moons early.

[phoenix4]

Dipping back into all sorts of fun stuff! I'm working on a few lists that are configured in various ways.

I just miss locking people out with Blood Moons early.

I can imagine :D

[jandax]

First of a three part primer is up:

linky (http://www.mtgfanatic.com/Articles/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=224917)

[phoenix4]

First of a three part primer is up:

linky (http://www.mtgfanatic.com/Articles/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=224917)

Looks good so far! Thumbs up :)

[mcbain]

7-2 at SCG Seattle with enlightened painter. Picked up a foil Russian painter and summer mountain.

Lost to dredge nut draws and close RUG game.

Beat RUG, BUG, sneak show, reanimator, turbo lands, punishing jund, and Belcher.

I played the same 75 that's been going around except 3sphere was jitte due to high elves and death and taxs build.

I finished just shy of top 16 on breakers.

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[yugular]

First of a three part primer is up:

linky (http://www.mtgfanatic.com/Articles/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=224917)

Looking really good! Is that primer going to be ported over to these forums when its complete?

Also noticed you live in Utrecht. Wonderful city! I stayed there as an exchange student for one winter.

edit. The Strawberry Shortcake decklist has 4x Island instead of 4x Ancient Tomb :wink:

[spector14]

Hi guys, I'm a painter mono red player, and for a while I was looking for a list of some alternative to the classic one! In my new list propose different exclusion from the main deck of lightning bolts putting 4 gitaxian probe and a 1x bridge! (Idea taken from a post from a guy a few pages before)
What do you think of the list, above all, of the probe in this deck?

1 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spellskite

4 Gitaxian Probe

3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast

4 Blood Moon

4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
7 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Great Furnace


SB: 1 Manic Vandal
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Vexing Shusher
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 Koth of the Hammer
SB: 3 Lightning Bolt

[Stils1]

First of a three part primer is up:

linky (http://www.mtgfanatic.com/Articles/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=224917)

Nice primer!
Lands in the decklist's are missing Ancient Tombs. In iPainter list there are 4 plains and ePainter has 4 islands :eyebrow:

EDIT: Read the comments...

[phoenix4]

Hi guys, I'm a painter mono red player, and for a while I was looking for a list of some alternative to the classic one! In my new list propose different exclusion from the main deck of lightning bolts putting 4 gitaxian probe and a 1x bridge! (Idea taken from a post from a guy a few pages before)
What do you think of the list, above all, of the probe in this deck?


That's me :D

No, on a more serious note... I'd like to hear, what your thoughts are on the G-probe are, since i haven't heard of that many people doing it :D

[Nysrol]

While playing mono red in my meta main board bridge was the nuts draw many games. that and a revoker to turn off utility creatures. To that merrit I also keep 2 mainboard in enlightened painter.

Gat probe. I like it if i have say 2 SOL Lands, a painter, a grind stone, a reb, and a monkey. Any other time i think i rather have a reb. Knowing its safe isnt as good in my mind as having the ability to stop them from stoping me. if you catch my drift

[phoenix4]

While playing mono red in my meta main board bridge was the nuts draw many games. that and a revoker to turn off utility creatures. To that merrit I also keep 2 mainboard in enlightened painter.

Gat probe. I like it if i have say 2 SOL Lands, a painter, a grind stone, a reb, and a monkey. Any other time i think i rather have a reb. Knowing its safe isnt as good in my mind as having the ability to stop them from stoping me. if you catch my drift

Well.... Sometimes I'm missing a Lightning Bolt, but since I've changed my playstyle accordingly, the probe - for me at least - feels soooooo much better... It let's you cycle your library (among other things) and letting you know, what the OP has in hand....

Yeah, sometimes it's just completely dead, but that's a rare case for me :P

[jandax]

I dunno, seems to me like a strictly personal card choice. Highly dependent on play style, GProbe has its advantages and disadvantages all around.

[phoenix4]

I dunno, seems to me like a strictly personal card choice. Highly dependent on play style, GProbe has its advantages and disadvantages all around.

For sure it has. No question. But with probe, I'm more focusing on landing a "safe" Blood Moon or going for a quick combo... But I feel that it's the beauty of this deck.... The exact same 75, can be played in such a variety of ways, that I'm not enterily sure I can exploit all of 'em :D

[Kap'n Cook]

Mcbain nice work. I'll add your result in the shortcake section on the front page later tonight. If you write a report I'll link that as well

[jandax]

Looking really good! Is that primer going to be ported over to these forums when its complete?

Also noticed you live in Utrecht. Wonderful city! I stayed there as an exchange student for one winter.

edit. The Strawberry Shortcake decklist has 4x Island instead of 4x Ancient Tomb :wink:

Yeah Utrecht is a great town. Moved here over five years ago from stateside and haven't looked back

And the website hosting the article has a bug with its deck editor, Ancient Tomb doesn't show up so I replaced it with basics. Just a proxy.

[BaroqueW]

As a side note, Jack's list made it into the French TCG magazine "Lotus noir (http://www.lotusnoir.info/)" (black lotus) issue 156 of Feb/March this year:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9832035/IP_low.png

Higher resolution (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9832035/IP.png)

[Edit: added translation]

This deck is entirely based on the card Painter's servant. The goal is to have it in play with Grindstone (which you then simply need to activate to win by milling the opponent's deck entirely). The real strength of this deck is to abuse blue hate cards (blue being the dominating color of Legacy) by maindecking cards which are usually played in sideboards... If your adversary does not play blue, you simply need to name "blue" with Painter's servant to fix that problem. The rest of the deck is mainly made of tutors, mana producers, and especially disruptive cards such as Blood moon and Ensnaring bridge.

[Dice_Box]

Probe has promise, but I fear it can bite in longer games. On top of the damage from Tomb, it's going to hurt you if the other guy is on a fast beat down path.

[Michael Keller]

I'm ready to start painting again!

[sroncor1]

Glad to hear it man. Are you going to be making it down to the MD/VA area to play?

Congrats Jack!

About Gitaxian Probe, the info it provides is valuable however I am not sure the info it provides is worth the two life and the increased difficulty to properly mulligan bc you are essentially only seeing six of your seven cards. And since proper mulling with the deck is such a huge aspect of success, I'm not sure over a large event with many rounds that you will see the advantage. Just my two sense.

Seth

[Michael Keller]

Probably not that far down anytime soon, but definitely at the May event in Binghamton. Caffrey's events too, possibly.

[Zorker]

Thi is my firts time playing Strawberry Shortcake / Enlightened Painter, i "tested" at one of the local lgs. The tournament vas very small (unsanctioned) 6 people including the owner, the deck were the following.

1) Lands (DD)
2) Shortcake
3) Elves
4) Miracles
5)Goblin
6) UWR delver

My match went like this:

Uwr delver 0 -Painter 2

Game 1: i stabilize at 2 an i combo ftw, he didn't see any lighting bolt
Game 2: Back and forth trade spells, but at the last moment i combo ftw

Lands(DD) 2 - Painter 0
(I never had any experience with this deck)

Game 1: Ensaring bridge 1st turn, he is able in the long term to get a living wish and Destroy it
Game 2: I got stuck to 2 lands.


Goblin 0 - Painter 2

Game 1 : he beat the crap out of me, i cast bridge whic buys enough time to assemble the combo
Game 2: I'm able to get a ratchet bomb to 3 and destroy his lords, the i kill the remaining creature with firebolt and combo ftw





Ps: I used Kap'n Cook List

PPS: i own 995ì% of the deck, i miss only the recruiter T.T

[Michael Keller]

There's no shame in missing the Recruiters. I'm going to get burned at the stake for saying I have no intention on obtaining them or playing them in my new list(s).

[Kap'n Cook]

There's no shame in missing the Recruiters. I'm going to get burned at the stake for saying I have no intention on obtaining them or playing them in my new list(s).


How is it Imperial Painter then?

[Michael Keller]

Mono-Red Painter sans the Recruiters.

I know Imperial Recruiter is an iconic card in this archetype. I'm just tinkering around with iterations that don't require it.

[jandax]

Mono-Red Painter sans the Recruiters.

I know Imperial Recruiter is an iconic card in this archetype. I'm just tinkering around with iterations that don't require it.

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/535077pfff.gif
















In all serialness, is this going to be a sort of aggro/combo deck if IR isn't going to be gluing the deck together?

[phoenix4]

Hahah Jandax :D

Well, against a fast clock - yeah sure - they may not be that great, but heck... I'm feeling what you're saying...

I card i really miss in the deck though - is Ensnaring Bridge.... Freakin' hell, I missed that card yesterday... 2x SneakyShow :O :O

[Zorker]

@ Michael Keller: No recruiters?, That's a bold choice.

Ps: terrible pun i know

[jandax]

You punted pretty hard

[Michael Keller]

I know, I know. But just hear me out. I know Recruiters are a big part of the deck. All I'm doing is trying dozens iterations of the deck without them to see how it performs before dumping six bills on four 1/1s.

[Ish]

I know, I know. But just hear me out. I know Recruiters are a big part of the deck. All I'm doing is trying dozens iterations of the deck without them to see how it performs before dumping six bills on four 1/1s.

You can grab the promos on eBay for less than $400


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[cab0747]

You can grab the promos on eBay for less than $400


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Recruiters are going for $150 on Ebay now. :cry:

I think I will be playing this deck exclusively on MTGO. If recruiters drop below $100 again, I would consider picking up a set on paper though.

Weird question: Does anyone here have 1x FTV Ancient Tomb they are looking to sell on MTGO? I have 3 of the FTV versions and it will really bug me if I have mis-matching cards. This is the last thing I need before being able to complete the deck.

[Zorker]

Dilemma: Buying the promo recruiter (Black Bordered and cool), only pbrolbem they'll be the only foil in the deck?
White bordered recuiter(wb and expensive as hell).


Could some one enlighten me on the lands match up(DarkDepths).

[drude1]

Dilemma: Buying the promo recruiter (Black Bordered and cool), only pbrolbem they'll be the only foil in the deck?
White bordered recuiter(wb and expensive as hell).


Could some one enlighten me on the lands match up(DarkDepths).

So, I could only find the promo foil ones. They look cool, but my OCD kicked in and now I'm in the process of foiling out as much as I can, unfortunately with a decent expense.
Some pieces are easy to foil and that should be enough for any tournament. Otherwise try to find the portal ones if your OCD is as bad as mine (see needing the 4th shiny ancient tomb above).

I've played the lands matchup a couple times. Obviously, if you get the moon down fast enough and preferably a revoker on the diamonds, it's lights out. Just be careful as some versions will run 1x graveyard shuffler (ie gaea's blessing) SB against mill strategies. They also usually run punishing fire and will hold them for your painters. Overall I think it's a good matchup.

Quick report: played this in a daily 2 days ago and went 3-1. Beat RUG with a turn 1-2 moon in both games. Beat death & taxes twice with bridge and multiple comboing off through hate, and lost to jund and early Lilianas/hymns. I played a version with 20 land, including 5 fetch and 1 basic plains and 3 etutors. Tried 3 white leyline and 1 Humility SB. Leyline would have got me there against Jund but didn't see them. I'm liking this strategy over trinisphere or thorns, as every time I have dropped a trinisphere it has slowed me down more than opponent. With leyline a, burn becomes a better matchup and storm can't win as long as you hold pyroblasts for their echoing truth or other bounce spell. I'm also playing enough white to hard cast it if I need to. Still play one canonist.


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[Michael Keller]

For the Jund/Junk/Pox/heavy discard decks, I'm rolling with Metrognome out of my board. Card is so damn good and swingy.

[Zorker]

@ drude1:
So, I could only find the promo foil ones. They look cool, but my OCD kicked in and now I'm in the process of foiling out as much as I can, unfortunately with a decent expense.
Some pieces are easy to foil and that should be enough for any tournament. Otherwise try to find the portal ones if your OCD is as bad as mine (see needing the 4th shiny ancient tomb above).

I know, i f i have 3card of a certain editio i must get the 4th of that same ed.


@keller, just outf curiosity, how many gnomes?

Ps:My lgs owner hates me, when i ask do you have "x" card he says : where do you come up with all this old cards XD

[Michael Keller]

@ drude1:

I know, i f i have 3card of a certain editio i must get the 4th of that same ed.


@keller, just outf curiosity, how many gnomes?

Ps:My lgs owner hates me, when i ask do you have "x" card he says : where do you come up with all this old cards XD

It depends on the meta. With blue in check with all of our Blast effects, I'm focusing on punishing those aforementioned archetypes.

I'm also going Mono-Red. Personal preference.

[jandax]

For the Jund/Junk/Pox/heavy discard decks, I'm rolling with Metrognome out of my board. Card is so damn good and swingy.

I would do this too, but then I'd have to find fuggin gnome tokens...so I'll pass.

[Zorker]

OT: why i think that gnome tokens will be more expensive than metrognome?


Also has anyone tried to stream on twitch his/her/it matches?


Also is anyone here playing mtgo with the nick Utley26?, he's the one havi the most successes with painter on modo.

[jandax]

I'll be happy to stream/record if someone will lend me the deck online :-P

My mtgo account consists of m11 chaff and that's it

Sent from my GT-I9001 using Tapatalk 2

[cab0747]

OT: why i think that gnome tokens will be more expensive than metrognome?


Also has anyone tried to stream on twitch his/her/it matches?


Also is anyone here playing mtgo with the nick Utley26?, he's the one havi the most successes with painter on modo.

I have been looking for someone streaming this deck as well. Joe Lossett played this deck on his stream one time, but I think he gave the deck to someone.

I am putting this together on MTGO (Just need one more FTV ancient tomb). Once I finish it, I will attempt to stream at least a few times a week. However, I will be quite inexperienced.

[now]

Also is anyone here playing mtgo with the nick Utley26?, he's the one havi the most successes with painter on modo.

Utley26 is Kap'n Cook.


Joe Lossett played this deck on his stream one time, but I think he gave the deck to someone.

Joe was borrowing it from a friend.

[Zorker]

@now: Thanks i didn't know that

[yugular]

What are the pros and cons for running monored or whitesplash? Which matcups get better or worse?

[jandax]

No offense man, but the front page covers that. Just like every other front page in this forum.

[Ish]

What are the pros and cons for running monored or whitesplash? Which matcups get better or worse?

Hit the previous pages button... Probably looks like "<". All your dreams will come true!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[phoenix4]

Anyone going to Bazaar of Moxen in Annecy, this May?

[sroncor1]

Hollywood I love you and your ideas but I find it tough to see how that gnome helps. Aren't there better token generators to use? And doesn't koth win when faceing off against lilianna and discard decks?

Seth

[jandax]

That coming from a guy testing Imperial Painter "sans Recruiters"? Think about it :laugh:

[jake556]

Are you guys having any mana issues with your R/W build at 19 land? Curious if it is just me

4 tomb
3 city
5 fetches
4 mountain
1 furnace
2 Plateau

[Jungian Thing]

Are you guys having any mana issues with your R/W build at 19 land? Curious if it is just me

4 tomb
3 city
5 fetches
4 mountain
1 furnace
2 Plateau

Yes and no, you are not counting the monkey and the petal in the line up and they help with the explosive start but I do find it comes down to my mulligan, which I am still inexperienced in. I am running with the rule that one land is only keepable if a) It is Sol and I have a petal/Monkey and moon on the play. b) if I have a sol and a top (this can be speculative and I am still testing it bombs if there are no lands coming and not shuffles).

Not sure if this is how others play it.

[thebastard2]

Are you guys having any mana issues with your R/W build at 19 land? Curious if it is just me

4 tomb
3 city
5 fetches
4 mountain
1 furnace
2 Plateau

Yeah I was having problems too. I was used to playing the mono red version with 21 lands, so when I switched to the white splash , I often found myself mulliganing to oblivion. So I increased the land count to
20 by removing a petal and removed the furnace for a basic mountain.

[Ish]

I haven't had any issues.

You really only need 3 land to run the deck... And with 7 Sol lands and 5 accelerants you shouldn't need more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jandax]

Primer part two (http://www.mtgfanatic.com/Articles/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=225211) is up!

[Jungian Thing]

Primer part two (http://www.mtgfanatic.com/Articles/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=225211) is up!

Love the primer, however, why is the name of Strawberry Shortcake being nerfed to the uninspiring enlightened painter? Nothing smacks a deathblade player upside the head like saying they just got beaten by strawberry shortcake. Enlightened painter is such a non name you may as we'll just call it "imperial painter with a white splash". Strawberry shortcake not only is trolling, it implies you know something a little exclusive. You may as we'll call death and taxes white weenie. I'm sticking with Stawberry Shortcake, that name is a stone cold killer! At least acknowledge it's historically been called Strawberry Shortcake.

[Zorker]

@Jandax: Thanks for writing that primer but a few questions?

1) the deck editor for the site is still bugged? aka The plains in monored are ancient tomb?

2) brainfart

The mopst useful thing for me were the tips about the match ups all in one place.

Atm primer is down?

[sroncor1]

I do think jack and I should get some saying in the name of the deck.

Seth

[thebastard2]

Guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but I do remember back on the days before the legacy format , there was a type 1 or Type 1.5 R/W deck called
Strawberry Shortcake.

[jandax]

I use enlightened painter as the lowest common denominator. Of course Jack should name his own deck, that's no issue. For educational purposes I use the bland name. Hope no one is offended, and yes the deck editor is bugged still. The out of place basics are ancient tombs

Sent from my GT-I9001 using Tapatalk 2

[Michael Keller]

Hollywood I love you and your ideas but I find it tough to see how that gnome helps. Aren't there better token generators to use? And doesn't koth win when faceing off against lilianna and discard decks?

Seth

The Metrognomes are used out of the sideboard against discard-laden archetypes; decks that use cards like Hymn, Smallpox, Raven's Crime, Liliana, etc. Koth is fine, but against decks that run heavy discard you're usually going to have slight difficulties early on getting to four mana in the face of Wasteland, Smallpox, Port, etc. Metrognome creates a swift clock and even makes Liliana's "-2" ability that much worse against a resolved Painter.

[phoenix4]

Primer part two (http://www.mtgfanatic.com/Articles/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=225211) is up!

While I only skimmed the white part of the primer, I could defenately (Spelling plate) see the arguments made for the version... All in all, I think you're doing a great job, and I'll be looking forward to the third installment. :)

On a side note, I ended at 3rd place in a minor legacy tournament yesterday with 24 participants.. Beating troublesome MU's like MonoU OmniTell and Death and Taxes, I ended up, losing to Jund in the 6th and final round of swiss, getting paired up against the very same Jund deck in the 1/4-finals..

Eventually getting revenche for the loss in the swiss, I ended up with the aforementioned 3rd place and getting 1x Worldwake booster and 4x Intuition.

Playing my own "stock" monoR list, as far as I'm concerned right now... I'm not gotta change a single thing with the deck towards BoM9 in the start of May..

//phoenix4

Btw: Anyone else thinking of going to BoM9? ;)

[jandax]

I could defenately (Spelling plate) see the arguments made for the version...


Nice haul!

And could you elaborate on that sentence? Do not understand

[phoenix4]

Nice haul!

And could you elaborate on that sentence? Do not understand

Being a monoR player of this deck (I've only tried the white splash once, to a very poor result), I can see the pro's for playing that version. I have just not been fond of splashing another color, but that's probably because the tournaments I'm playing in, generally has so many 3-colored decks, that I can exploit the 7 mainboard moon effects I have in my deck.

Can't argue with the guys results with ePainter (See what I did there? :D), but I'm just not in a position to try it yet :)

[jandax]

I'm gonna run the white splash at my next local for the first time. Seems legit to this mono red player

[phoenix4]

I'm gonna run the white splash at my next local for the first time. Seems legit to this mono red player

I'm not saying that it's NOT good, I'm just saying I'm not fond of splashing in my build :)
Sorry if it came out another way :)

On a sidenote: It feels funny, to search for my own name on mtgpulse:
3 times
3 iPainter decks :D

[jandax]

Oh no, I took it exactly as you meant it. I'm just excited to finally have both flavors of the deck.

[phoenix4]

Oh no, I took it exactly as you meant it. I'm just excited to finally have both flavors of the deck.

I could imagine your OP's, pulling their hair :D

Are you going to BoM9? :)

[sroncor1]

@Hollywood- Ok, I get that. I guess I just plan on winning the first two rounds and not worring about shit like pox. Interesting to fight discard, although wouldn't maximizing welders also help. Try them with Wormcoil. I messed around a little with Wormcoil Engine when it came out. Fast clock, beats removal, fucks up goyf and the creatures of Jund, along with playing well with welder and being easily castable.

I am looking forward to see what you come up with although in a mono red shell I am wondering how you decrease variance without tutors. Are you thinking about just jamming Gamble and going that route?

Seth

[jake556]

52nd at SCG Los Angeles Legacy Open running Kap's list 6-3 had an awesome time!

[jandax]

Not bad, jake. care to write a little report?

And no I am not going to BoM. Will be back stateside on vacation at that time.

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

I think I may build this deck, but I have not found any guidance on how to sideboarding, and I have some doubt about the red version and in particular about the boros version. Can anyone give me a hand? I think the sideboarding is a very important thing to discuss.

[sroncor1]

To be honest sideboarding is far less important than understanding how to play the deck. To do that you just need to shuffle up the cards. The mono red list would be fine at a smaller event where you know and can predict the meta. It had a more difficult time with beating decks that run Eldrazi in general

If you go back through the thread there is discussion of sideboarding. I would start there. My recommendation is play first, find some answers, then come back with specific questions. How to sideboard is so broad, and not really fair to expect people to keep rehashing it in the face of you not doing any testing.

Seth

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

I've played the deck online, I liked it, it's very difficult but incredibly powerfull. Now I think to try to restart the testing of the deck online, but I have some doubt. For example, keeping the Jean-Mary Accart decklist, I don't know if I must put the other Ensnaring Bridge against midrange decks. The 4 Firebolt are very pretty, but against patriot and bug I don't know all the changes that I must made in the maindeck for them.

[Kap'n Cook]

Basically you are saying 'hey I just picked up this deck and am too lazy to read through the thread to find the answers I need so just give them to me'

You can go read the old thread, this one, tournament reports, and articles. Jandax posted an effing linked primer one day ago. every question you will have has already been asked and answered at least twice by someone else. After that, feel free to ask a question. For example, a long time ago I asked if anyone had tried martyr of ashes. I used the search function and found maybe one hit so I asked.

First page is there for a reason.

[Sparkii]

For the elves matchup analysis, moon is actually much better than you think. They are all splashing black and fetches for DRS. They can also beat a resolved bridge or peacekeeper with sideboarded Decays.

[phoenix4]

For the elves matchup analysis, moon is actually much better than you think. They are all splashing black and fetches for DRS. They can also beat a resolved bridge or peacekeeper with sideboarded Decays.

Well.... I wouldn't necessarily board them out, but i'd been having success with Pyrokinesis..... Now THAT'S a bomb against Elves xD

[Dice_Box]

A moon on the play against elves is a bomb. On the draw, it's a speed bump. If they know you have it, they can play around it with little effort. If they don't know you have it, you win the game a good amount of the time.

Let that be a lesson, fetch basics first, always, when playing blind.

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

Basically you are saying 'hey I just picked up this deck and am too lazy to read through the thread to find the answers I need so just give them to me'

You can go read the old thread, this one, tournament reports, and articles. Jandax posted an effing linked primer one day ago. every question you will have has already been asked and answered at least twice by someone else. After that, feel free to ask a question. For example, a long time ago I asked if anyone had tried martyr of ashes. I used the search function and found maybe one hit so I asked.

First page is there for a reason.
Yes, I've found a lot of good advices, but I have even some doubt. I asked to Jean-Mary Accart to resolve my remaining doubts, but he tell me that you're the expert of the deck. I usually stalk the players from which I want to get advice on Facebook, but if some thing can be shared on a forum is better. I read your report, and you usually side out the tops, why? It's not better take them instead of simian? Against BUG, all versions, what are the best cards?

[Dice_Box]

Top is something you use to filter and control your draws in a longer game. Also, when used with Welder they can become a draw engine. But they are only useful in longer games. If you do not think your going to have time then they are an easy choice to side out.

You do not take out the Ape, the mana he makes while you have a blast in hand is a life saver while also having legs should the need arise. The boost he gives to an opening hand is also a large part of his appeal.