[Deck] Imperial Painter

[Kap'n Cook]

I'm trying out 1 pyrite spellbomb in place of the 4th firebolt as a tutorable creature kill. I searched the thread and no one has tried it before without bomberman combo as well. Someone did mention running a seal of fire, which I like, but this does the same thing (albeit one mana more expensive) and can be welded back and forth for value and additional utility. I am not sure if it is better than the 4th firebolt. Time will tell.

If you are playing mono-red I would not play any pyrite spellbombs. Max out on firebolts.

If you are playing white splash and are running 2 or less welders, running engineered explosives like in Seth's list will give you more flexibility and kill all the same creatures you care about plus other permanents as an upside. For that matter, 2 or less welder lists should probably swap ratchet bomb for Explosives too and keep the full firebolt set. The reason for this is that you are less likely to naturally draw a welder and untap with one alive. You are more likely to gain value from the slot by flashbacking firebolt than you are having a pyrite be an artifact.

Just my thoughts for now.

[jandax]

All this about the Bomb for EE in a 2 Welder white splash list is true. Exactly what I did a few weeks ago and haven't looked back. Although, Ratchet Bomb is only marginally better than EE, not by a large amount.

[drude1]

So ironically I just moved back to a 3 welder list and I have to admit, the consistency of comboing and the welder/top or welder/grindstone shenanigans is so fun. It also makes the MUD matchup inch better, which I was struggling with. My only concern is, with moving cards like Koth to the SB to make room, what happens when you face decks like show and tell or other Eldrazi based decks? You feel so all-in on the painter combo. You just try to beat them with dork swinging? Heavy welder also makes the RIP/helm combo bad on the board. Anyone come up with other combo options? For people who tried a stoneforge package, how did that go? Anyone consider something like a one-of charbelcher or something to win with? Just thinking about options.


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[drude1]

All this about the Bomb for EE in a 2 Welder white splash list is true. Exactly what I did a few weeks ago and haven't looked back. Although, Ratchet Bomb is only marginally better than EE, not by a large amount.

I think he is saying to do the opposite.



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[Jungian Thing]

Strawberry Shortcake made it to 13th place at the SCG on the weekend. Pretty standard main (Pyro-1, REB +1) with a thorn heavy sideboard. Is that a meta call? Firebolt vs. Thorn is not a this is better than one is better than the other, they are different right? Thorn is solid (and stacks) but I would be pretty concerned about not having reliable creature kill available. I mean what is your line against, say, death and taxes? Oh wait, that came first...

And Kapn, I have been watching the latest video and that BUG match-up was exactly the way my last three league games played out. In a way, it was a relief to see such a fine player as yourself take some bad beats but I also felt so sorry for you that during the video I tried to type words of encouragement!

[cab0747]

Oh lawd... I found Imperial Recruiters for a decent price (comes to about $140 each). Super tempted to jump on this :(

[phoenix4]

oh lawd... I found imperial recruiters for a decent price (comes to about $140 each). Super tempted to jump on this :(

do it! :d

[drude1]

Hey Kapn, just watched your last stream. And although I didn't actually get to watch the SCG painter that you guys were watching, thinking about the exchange you had I'm wondering if Chandra isn't at least better than Koth in the deck. My problem with Koth is that it does nothing until you ultimate it. And if you are playing against a deck like D&T, koth doesn't live past the turn you drop it unless it's protected by a bridge. I know Koth is probably more of a beat stick against pure control like Miracles, but Chandra wouldn't be terrible in that matchup (ultimate) and seems so much better against small creature decks like D&T, deadguy, goblins?, elves?, etc. Just wanted to revisit people's thoughts on Koth vs Chandra. I might be making the switch.

p.s. So love welder again now, went back up to 3 in my list as well thanks to the shenanigans I saw you pull off in your last stream

[Dice_Box]

Koth's mana ramp is not insignificant and his use when under a bridge is second to none.

[cab0747]

do it! :d

God damn... I keep holding off because it is soooooo much money. I can't get these out of my head though....

[drude1]

Koth's mana ramp is not insignificant and his use when under a bridge is second to none.

Funny, I've played with Koth quite a bit now and a) I've actually never used his mana ramp ability once in a game, and b) I totally agree that he is great under a bridge, but there are just so many times when he is stuck in my hand because I'm only going to get one swing with a 4/4 land and then Koth will be dead. Chandra also seems good under a bridge mostly in the form of card advantage, and can ping off ass weak guys like most of D & T team, bob, v.clique, etc. the biggest advantage that I think Koth has is in the miracles matchup where you can drop him and kill a jace on the spot. I think it's an interesting call.


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[teonsw]

God damn... I keep holding off because it is soooooo much money. I can't get these out of my head though....

DO EETTTTT!!! If anything they are just going to go up. Not to mention the deck is a blast to play! :smile:

[cab0747]

DO EETTTTT!!! If anything they are just going to go up. Not to mention the deck is a blast to play! :smile:

Fuck it! Just got back from the LGS. Picked up all 4 (the guy gave me a pretty nice deal). Looks like I am playing this deck on paper now!

[Dice_Box]

Welcome to the fold. Next step, empting your bank for SOL lands...

[cab0747]

Welcome to the fold. Next step, empting your bank for SOL lands...

Already have them all :P

I just need the Stones/Painters and 2 Tops. I may want to pick up some Extra REB's and Pyroblasts though. I don't want to have to switch them back and forth.

Edit: Crap... I actually need one more City of Traitors. I also forgot I still need 2 more ensnaring bridges.

Oh well! I have time. I will keep grinding the deck on MTGO while I finish up the paper version.

[Dice_Box]

If your running Enlightened you don't need 8 SOL lands. That said the prices will not go down on City, so it's still a good call.

[cab0747]

If your running Enlightened you don't need 8 SOL lands. That said the prices will not go down on City, so it's still a good call.

Yes, I will be running the Rw Shortcake version. My MTGO list is nearly identical to Kapn's list he posted here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27659-Slinging-Blue-Sky-at-Tales-of-Adventure

He is running 7 Sol lands. While I have the 4 ancient tombs, I only have 3 City of Traitors (I could have sworn I had 3 for Omni-Tell) :eyebrow:

[mcbain]

I ran the typical painter list at our local tourney for a mox Ruby. Unfortunately due to some very subtle but key misplays I fell from contention.

My two losses were both to skilled shardless BUG players.

Both knew exactly how to play the matchup and I always felt behind. Blood moon was almost irrelevant and DRS and abrupt decay were the bane of my existence.

Generally I would get softlocks and eventually lose to decay.

I generally would board:

In
3 Firebolt
1 pyrite spellbomb
1 koth
2 crypt
1 ethersworn cannonist
1 spellskite
1 ensnaring bridge

Out
3 top
1 simian spirit guide
2 redblast
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 jaya
And something that slips my mind.

What are your guys plays and plans vs BUG? I have found it to be very tight matchup if both players play correctly.



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[LeoCop 90]

I don't know your exact decklist but I think you are oversideboarding. I would board in just 3 firebolt, 1 pyrite spellbomb, 1 bridge and 1 spellskite. No canonist, no crypts.
And i wouldn't take out blasts and recruiters for sure.

[mcbain]

My list is the standard list with one spellskite in the board.

The bug decks all have one forest and swamp and know to fetch it turn one. Also they will not keep a hand that does not beat turn 1 Blood moon. The blue in the matchup almost always feels irrelevant, hence the blasts out. Welder and cannoist can be quite effective. 90% of the time you lose to goyf or DRS. Perhaps I was boarding one crypt and not two.

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[Kap'n Cook]

You are giving their deck too much credit and playing into their hands by siding like that. If they force a moon they're down a card. So what if they have forest and swamp out already. They'll have to have fetches in the yard to cast any blue or double black spell. If they abrupt decay your moon then that is one less for a bridge, painter, welder etc. Blast jace and visions and try to deal with liliana before she goes too crazy. They don't run daze or spell pierce so you can safely jam stuff. Overloading their decays is the best plan. Sensei top is awesome in this matchup.

Board like this:
In 1 bridge, 1 RIP (maybe), out 1 spirit guide, 1 jaya (maybe). That's it. If they run revoker then bring in firebolt. I usually don't want firebolt since the only creature you care about killing is deathrite but I could be wrong. the matchup is usually heavily slanted our way anyways so it hasn't even mattered. The pyrite spellbomb is experimental so im not sure if its better yet than the 4th firebolt.

If you want to bring in the burn spells you could always go -2 tutor, -2 petal and take out jaya maybe for the burn and the bridge for maximum card advantage. Up to you. Again all the boarding should be done on the fly based on what you saw game 1, how you feel like approaching it etc. I don't run spellskite so I don't know what you want to cut.

Never take recruiters out in any matchup.

[Aesir]

Imperial Painter v. U/R Painter on camera now @ Knoxville. This will be interesting...

[kavaki]

Imperial Painter v. U/R Painter on camera now @ Knoxville. This will be interesting...

What are your thoughts on the match-up? How do you go about playing it?

[Aesir]

What are your thoughts on the match-up? How do you go about playing it?

I don't play either deck myself, but I like the deck(s), and think they're fun to watch. In theory I would say that U/R Painter is favored, but that's a mere thought from analyzing both decks.

[kavaki]

After watching the first game, it seems like your correct. It really seems like a match-up that is so pilot dependent. Also, Spiritual Focus. It seems pretty fun.

[RingoDeathStarr]

Hey y'all,
So I know the R/W version is pretty optimized at the moment, but I was wondering if anyone had any updates to the Mono-Red lists, which haven't been discussed as much recently. I just finished building Mono-Red in paper, but have been playing the deck for a few months now. So I'm not totally unfamiliar, nor an expert with it, but I have read most of the discussion in this thread. I will have the ability to make the white splash soon, but in the mean time I'm playing this:

9 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Goblin Welder
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Koth of the Hammer
2 Ensnaring Bridge

SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Manic Vandal
SB: 1 Shard Phoenix
SB: 3 Firebolt
SB: 1 Koth of the Hammer
SB: 1 Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge

My LGS is basically all Delver variants, a couple BUG decks, and at least 2-3 Miracles players, Tezzeret Control, Affinity, and occasional Dredge, with a few players who can play literally anything each week. Perhaps that helps contextualize a few odd things like the Vexing Shusher and Shard Phoenix, as part of the build is trying to make counterspells and hymns as least impactful as possible. Also, the 1 Chandra/1 Koth split (w/ 1 more Koth boarded for the heavy Miracles presence) split is mostly to try both out, but so far both have proven spectacular in different ways when they come down. The 3 Thorns are completely dead pretty much always at my store, so while I'm not eager to take them out in case someone does switch to Storm, I do have some flexibility there for sure with my SB most of the time.
Main deck I was considering a Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal, or possibly a Great Furnace instead of a Mountain, but there are Wastelands aplenty here.
Any thoughts on tuning this up, beyond just jumping to the white splash?

[mcbain]

Maybe minus a guide for a lotus in the main. Also I have seen some mono red lists run 3 gitaxian probe for added spice.

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[The Duressed]

Maybe minus a guide for a lotus in the main. Also I have seen some mono red lists run 3 gitaxian probe for added spice.

It's important to remember why you're doing what you're doing when you make card choices, especially in a deck with a lot of silverl bullets and tutor effects. You've seen a lot of decks rung 3 guides and 2 petals, and that makes sense. But I'll guarantee you that 99% of those lists were R/W lists. Think about it - what's the only way that petal is actually better than guide? The ability to produce white mana. SSG is 100 times better in mono red lists because it can come out of your hand at instant speed and can be used as a creature if you're flooded. Definitely max SSGs before adding lotus petals in a mono-red list.

[Juice11]

It's important to remember why you're doing what you're doing when you make card choices, especially in a deck with a lot of silverl bullets and tutor effects. You've seen a lot of decks rung 3 guides and 2 petals, and that makes sense. But I'll guarantee you that 99% of those lists were R/W lists. Think about it - what's the only way that petal is actually better than guide? The ability to produce white mana. SSG is 100 times better in mono red lists because it can come out of your hand at instant speed and can be used as a creature if you're flooded. Definitely max SSGs before adding lotus petals in a mono-red list.

Doesn't the interaction with goblin welder favor having an extra petal? It can be very useful in conjunction with welder. I'm not an expert with the deck, just an observation.

[The Duressed]

Doesn't the interaction with goblin welder favor having an extra petal? It can be very useful in conjunction with welder. I'm not an expert with the deck, just an observation.

That's a fair enough point, but I'd say you're in an unusual scenario if you need to weld an artifact into a petal. It's not super common to have to cast SSG, either, but I would still choose the instant speed aspect of SSG. Plus I can't be the only person to have ended a game via SSG beats :tongue:

[Matsaya]

Even in my Rw list I like to run 4 guide for 1 petal. The main reason being : top on the board, blast in hands, guide on top of the library.

[Dice_Box]

I think it is dependent on how many welders you run. If you are planing to run welder as a one off, then sure you can run with a single petal. But even then you still don't get the access to white as easily as you would with the two of them. Also Petal can be fetched with E tut while Ape can not. This is a very good thing to think about if you are playing around Daze.

Honestly, play as you think is best, but I really think that the benefits of petal are strong enough that having that extra one is worth risking the one event where it is worse.

[kkoie]

Hey y'all,
So I know the R/W version is pretty optimized at the moment, but I was wondering if anyone had any updates to the Mono-Red lists, which haven't been discussed as much recently. I just finished building Mono-Red in paper, but have been playing the deck for a few months now. So I'm not totally unfamiliar, nor an expert with it, but I have read most of the discussion in this thread. I will have the ability to make the white splash soon, but in the mean time I'm playing this:


Well I've been playing Mono-red for the last 9 months and have had a lot of success at my LGS these last two months this is my current list:

Deck: Imperial Painter

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:18
2 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells:22
4 Grindstone
4 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Blood Moon
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Koth of the Hammer

Lands:20
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
4 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
6 Mountain

Sideboard:15
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Firebolt
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Manic Vandal
1 Koth of the Hammer

My meta includes a couple of delver decks, manaless dredge, 12 post, elves, death and taxes, maverick, esperblade, jund, bant, and occasional other things depending on what people want to bring to the shop and try out.

[sroncor1]

My list is the standard list with one spellskite in the board.

The bug decks all have one forest and swamp and know to fetch it turn one. Also they will not keep a hand that does not beat turn 1 Blood moon. The blue in the matchup almost always feels irrelevant, hence the blasts out. Welder and cannoist can be quite effective. 90% of the time you lose to goyf or DRS. Perhaps I was boarding one crypt and not two.

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I am not sure a hand that can do both those things is that common. The firebolt and moons can really punish them. And forcing them to abrupt decay is a win as your other perm emanates will land. I know jack has been testing the spellbomb but I really think in most instances firebolt is just plain better. I would not board Ot SDT in that matchup for crypts as you want to be the beat down and apply preassure. They have one source of CA so use your card advantage. And never board out Recruiter. Jesus guys.

Also I should say this and I hate being a dick here but I recently got to watch someone literally play my deck. Nice guy but he butchered the play and not just painter specific plays. They were fundamental plays and strategies of magic. I guess I have played so long that things like keeping EE in against elves seems intuitive to me. Or keeping in Jaya and Recruiters against a deck that doesn't make CA and only has 4-6 hard counters and four removal spells. As I mentioned before everyone should explore the old dojo archives. And I caution anyone from taking to much random advice from most people. Try and test for yourself. Most people are just wrong, myself included.

Seth

[kkoie]

I am not sure a hand that can do both those things is that common. The firebolt and moons can really punish them. And forcing them to abrupt decay is a win as your other perm emanates will land. I know jack has been testing the spellbomb but I really think in most instances firebolt is just plain better. I would not board Ot SDT in that matchup for crypts as you want to be the beat down and apply preassure. They have one source of CA so use your card advantage. And never board out Recruiter. Jesus guys.

Also I should say this and I hate being a dick here but I recently got to watch someone literally play my deck. Nice guy but he butchered the play and not just painter specific plays. They were fundamental plays and strategies of magic. I guess I have played so long that things like keeping EE in against elves seems intuitive to me. Or keeping in Jaya and Recruiters against a deck that doesn't make CA and only has 4-6 hard counters and four removal spells. As I mentioned before everyone should explore the old dojo archives. And I caution anyone from taking to much random advice from most people. Try and test for yourself. Most people are just wrong, myself included.

Seth

I don't think you are being a dick. I found I learned a lot more on how to properly sideboard and play the deck over the last few months from attending my LGS's weekly legacy tournament and play testing than anywhere else. Experience is always the final hurdle to playing a deck well it seems.

I did initially try a white splash last year and gave that up fairly quickly because I didn't like being susceptible to land hate early on, before I landed a blood moon. Is that truly an issue for anyone playing the white splash? Or was I just having a knee-jerk reaction. I've gotten pretty comfortable with my mono-red version.

[mcbain]

I had a knee jerk reaction to write splash as well. It is more focused on combo with silver bullet backup which is generally where you want to be. Once you get used to it though it's hard to go back to mono red. Goblin welder, one of the strongest cards is extremely good in the white splash. This was also why I proposed the 3/1 split in mono red as it often had difficulty putting a artifact in the bin.

Regarding the BUG matchup, I don't feel I am giving them to much credit. I agree tops and recruiters are way to good to board out (was trying something new).

I often find their discard is to effective and quickly puts me behind on pressure. It also doesn't help that I've played the deck for so long that I ha E single handedly warped my local meta's mana bases. I never go up against an opponent that doesn't know what I'm playing.

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[pinkfrosting]

I've been playing the mono red version for a while now a well, running a very similar list to kkoie. I don't focus as much on powering welder, I use two but really only for combo recursion after a failed attempt. I focus my mainboard more toward more moon effects and extra blasts/removal, in the form of lightning bolt.

Top is your best card in any discard heavy matchup. You can set up turns so that no important card is in your hand on your opponent's turn, just use top to order the deck so that you play the key combo piece the turn that you draw it. I initially feared pox style builds more than anything and even sideboarded leyline of sanctity because of my paranoia about discard, but after playing the deck for a while I've realized that it's actually fairly consistent at giving you what you need to re-assemble, especially with a top on the field and something like a moon to give you some time.

BUG and Jund are both tough matchups. After they pick apart your hand they have a nice suite of removal that is great against painter. 1-2 abrupt decays/counterspells have to be baited out, and then you have to hope you can counter their maelstrom pulse or pernicious deed post board. It is not impossible however, and you can trade 1 for 1 with a lot of their cards. Be patient, and trade efficiently, then make your move when they are low on cards. Remember that even if they have removal, if you set up the combo correctly and quickly and leave mana up, you can activate stone in response to a spell. Don't try to go off too early, you need to sandbag for a bit in those matchups.

Occasionally you will get a game where you can break their manabase super early with a moon, then blast their basic they fetched turn one (if they even got one). Always take this opportunity, if you can turn off their removal you will close it out very quickly.

I play mono-r at my primary LGS because everyone there plays T1 greedy manabase madness, and blood moon is great. However some other local shops I go too play a lot of less interactive strategies like burn, combo, dredge, and other stuff. I am thinking about trying the white splash there because it can tutor for sideboard hate. Being able to grab bridge against sneak and show is nice too.

My most feared matchup is probably ANT. It's hate or bust in that matchup generally.

[vhirvela]

Hi. I am new here on source.

I have been searching for legacy deck I want to commit to and spend the big bucks to play!

So far I have mono red burn without fetchlands and also uups all spells.

But now from next paycheck I wanna put out 1000€ and get this Imperial painter most likely. I have been studying this deck for two days and it seems about what I was looking for.

I have been playtesting with my friends daze, fow, delver, stiffle, tarmogouf, sometimes phyrexian dreadnought with stiffle deck. (I can never remember if that is BUG delver or RUG delver but anyways)
I like that deck. I want to play a deck that does not scoop to any one card and that can also agro it's way to victory atleast sometimes. I do like combo type decks more. I very much love to play uups all spells in legacy and also storm in modern. But i feel that uups all spells looses to easily to one daze or fow that I would love something more consistent.

I also am not that found of the idea to invest into 10+fetch lands since I feel that their money price might drop after supposed reprint. I have no problem bying duals. I think they are solid investment!

In any case. I don't know which is over all stronger/better or more constent build Red white ipainter or red ipainter but I think what I want from my build. and these are questions I would love some input!

I wanna play 4 main blood moon and 2 main magus of the moon. does this seem solid If I go with red version?

I would love to play some great furnace since I would love to have gobling weilder in my deck.

I think I should play 1 phyrexian revoker, 1 gobling weilder and 1 1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage. Since I can tutor what ever I need with imperial recruiter. Why run multiple copies of situational cards?:O

I think I want to have on the main or in the side 1 Vexing Shusher is he valid?

I think I want one Phyrexian Metamorph.

I don't want to run with main deck bridges beacause that is very situational or only 1 at most.

I would love to run 4 x Lion's eye diamond. I even saw some deck with infinite mana + infinite damage combo using that.

Is lion's eye diamond builds valid at todays meta?

I would love to run 4 ancient tomb and 3-4 city of traitors.

I dont want to run: 1 Chandra, Pyromaster or 1 Koth of the Hammer. I don't see any point at those cards at all!!:O


What do you think. those that have played or experimented with red imperial painter. am I even on the right page with my reasoning and ideas?

[kkoie]

A lot of of your questions are answered in the Primer.



I don't want to run with main deck bridges beacause that is very situational or only 1 at most.
Bridges are good against a lot of decks, unless you are running the white splash, having 3-4 main deck is needed to ensure you draw them

I would love to run 4 x Lion's eye diamond. I even saw some deck with infinite mana + infinite damage combo using that.
Is lion's eye diamond builds valid at todays meta?
LED's are used in a differn't deck. That would be the RU painter deck with trinket mages, and I believe they run 1 LED.

I dont want to run: 1 Chandra, Pyromaster or 1 Koth of the Hammer. I don't see any point at those cards at all!!:O

Then don't. There are a few schools of thought regarding planeswalkers, but generally Koth is ran as an alternate wincon against slower decks like Control. A resolved Koth against Miracles, for example, spells serious problems for them. Some pages back there was discussion regarding Chandra when a SCG employee played Imperial Painter and made it to the top 8 with it, using Chandra. I believe the conclusion was that Koth was better, but Chandra still has a few defenders. In the end it's preference.

[RingoDeathStarr]

Hi. I am new here on source.

I have been searching for legacy deck I want to commit to and spend the big bucks to play!

So far I have mono red burn without fetchlands and also uups all spells.

But now from next paycheck I wanna put out 1000€ and get this Imperial painter most likely. I have been studying this deck for two days and it seems about what I was looking for.

I have been playtesting with my friends daze, fow, delver, stiffle, tarmogouf, sometimes phyrexian dreadnought with stiffle deck. (I can never remember if that is BUG delver or RUG delver but anyways)
I like that deck. I want to play a deck that does not scoop to any one card and that can also agro it's way to victory atleast sometimes. I do like combo type decks more. I very much love to play uups all spells in legacy and also storm in modern. But i feel that uups all spells looses to easily to one daze or fow that I would love something more consistent.

I also am not that found of the idea to invest into 10+fetch lands since I feel that their money price might drop after supposed reprint. I have no problem bying duals. I think they are solid investment!




When I decided to buy Painter, I went to buy Mono Red first, mostly because it's a few hundred dollars/euros cheaper, and I'd be able to play with it more quickly. Once you have the white splash, you can play either version, so I'm putting that together as well. I'd say do whichever one you can afford now, and then try both out eventually, as the cost isn't that much higher for white, and you can always build it if mono red isn't working for you. Also, I took the advice of everyone not to tinker too much with established lists before I had played a ton of games, and that really paid off when it came time to tweak it for myself, so I'd choose a stock list from the front page or the primers from 10 or so pages back and learn it inside and out first.
About buying fetches/duals, I decided to play Painter because I like it the best of all the Legacy decks I've tried, not because of budget. The deck has a ton of play, and can play a number of different styles even with the same deck list from game to game. The only downside is that there are relatively few other decks to build from the cards you pick up for Painter. If playing many decks is important to you, don't build Painter, but if you like it more than the other options, then absolutely pick it up, as I can't foresee playing this one deck getting boring any time soon.

[pinkfrosting]

In any case. I don't know which is over all stronger/better or more constent build Red white ipainter or red ipainter but I think what I want from my build. and these are questions I would love some input!

I wanna play 4 main blood moon and 2 main magus of the moon. does this seem solid If I go with red version?

I would love to play some great furnace since I would love to have gobling weilder in my deck.

I think I should play 1 phyrexian revoker, 1 gobling weilder and 1 1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage. Since I can tutor what ever I need with imperial recruiter. Why run multiple copies of situational cards?:O

I think I want to have on the main or in the side 1 Vexing Shusher is he valid?

I think I want one Phyrexian Metamorph.

I don't want to run with main deck bridges beacause that is very situational or only 1 at most.

I would love to run 4 x Lion's eye diamond. I even saw some deck with infinite mana + infinite damage combo using that.

Is lion's eye diamond builds valid at todays meta?

I would love to run 4 ancient tomb and 3-4 city of traitors.

I dont want to run: 1 Chandra, Pyromaster or 1 Koth of the Hammer. I don't see any point at those cards at all!!:O

What do you think. those that have played or experimented with red imperial painter. am I even on the right page with my reasoning and ideas?

The red version is very focused on establishing a quick blood moon lock and comboing out. Your toolbox is still diverse but a bit slower to access, as your only tutor is recruiter (dem rhymez). If your local meta runs mostly non-basics, this is a good place to play mono-r.

The biggest thing that white splash brings you is enlightened tutor. It allows you to tutor up just about any nonland permanent in the deck that recruiter can't, including most of your sideboard. This also means it's safer to run more artifacts mainboard, which also consequently makes goblin welder better. You don't have to go heavy on welder if you don't want to, but the white splash is a nice home for him. If your local meta has a lot of diverse strategies and you expect bad matchups like ANT, TES, Sneak and Show, then the white splash is going to be better since you can tutor for your answers quicker.

Revoker is a nice card in a lot of our unfavorable matchups. It turns off Lily, turns off sneak attack, and lots of other annoying cards. It's also nice to abuse with welder, they can try to kill it but you can just whip him back at instant speed. I would recommend 2 main or 1 main 1 side for these reasons.

Welder's strength varies depending on your opponent's removal suite, but he is generally very powerful. If you run 2+ though, you have to tailor the deck to him by adding artifacts.

Metamorph is a little slow and generally doesn't really go with the goal of this deck. The reason you see him in older lists is because he used to be a removal spell for annoying legendaries, but this no longer works with the new legend rule.

LED is a cool and underutilized card in this deck. It can be abused with welder and gives us exactly what we need to activate the stone. I don't know if I'd run 4 though, unlike ANT we don't run cards that synergize with an empty hand. However, it works with welder, and I'd like to see someone make it work in an interesting way.

Koth is amazing against miracles but not much else. When he lands against miracles though he will probably win you the game on his own. Also if you ult him behind a wall of blockers you can control the rest of the game in almost any matchup. It's really a meta choice. Chandra is more experimental, I don't like her either though because she's slow and hard to cast at times.

[cab0747]

I have nothing constructive to add, but I just want to compliment this deck again. It is very power and so fun to play. I keep seeing new interactions each day.

Today I was playing Nic-Fit (I think) he hit me with an early durress. My hand was Welder, Welder, land, land, bridge, stone, painter. He takes the stone and passes. I play the welder and pass. He hits me with cabal therapy and takes painter. My T2, I top-deck and jam painter (he missed his second land drop). on my T3 I play out another welder and pass. I have no idea what he does, but it isn't exciting enough for me to care. I get a lotus petal for my draw and think "... Wait... So I just win now, right?". Drop petal, Welder1 welds out painter to get stone, I sac the petal tap 2 lands and activate stone, activate Welder2 in response, weld the stone for painter, pass, win.

There are so many little tricks with this deck and it is surprisingly interactive with a great control mechanism for the current greedy meta. Again, I know I am adding nothing to this conversation except maybe convincing someone else to pick it up. Amazing deck. So happy I am picking up the rest of the pieces I need in paper!

[Kap'n Cook]

You still can make it cleaner and play better. Turn 1 play welder. Turn two play topdecked painter. Eot weld out painter for stone. Now if you draw a land you win t3. Since you don't, now you play welder number two and have surgical protection using the first. Turn 4 you drop petal and activate stone and get painter in response. 2nd one is removal and graveyard protection for painter

[cab0747]

You still can make it cleaner and play better. Turn 1 play welder. Turn two play topdecked painter. Eot weld out painter for stone. Now if you draw a land you win t3. Since you don't, now you play welder number two and have surgical protection using the first. Turn 4 you drop petal and activate stone and get painter in response. 2nd one is removal and graveyard protection for painter

Ah, got it.

Thanks!

[vhirvela]

with the mono red main build. What other wincons do I have besides the grindstone painter combo. if for some reason that Is locked out and I can't activate it or something. (extirpate comes to mind)

[Mystic Snake]

1/1 and 2/1 beatdown plan is not a joke, and you get through this more than it comes to mind.
Blood moon makes that b plan easier

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[kkoie]

1/1 and 2/1 beatdown plan is not a joke, and you get through this more than it comes to mind.
Blood moon makes that b plan easier

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This is also my plan b with mono-red. I have tested out a singleton beat-stick like siege-gang commander, figure of destiny, and Kargan Dragonlord and have found that they are not necessary.

[cab0747]

1/1 and 2/1 beatdown plan is not a joke, and you get through this more than it comes to mind.
Blood moon makes that b plan easier

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This^^

Lock them out with Moon/Blasts and keep swinging with revokers and chain a few recruiters together.

Edit: This is where Koth can play a big role too. 5/5 mountains beat pretty damn well.

[Mystic Snake]

And if you want to really race, you go wild and play your imposing 2/2 monkey for 3.

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[Dice_Box]

Rakka Mar is best beat down plan. So much fun.

I have had my Stones Extracted before, went on a chain Recruiters into Jaya beat down. Still lost buy it was close.

[vhirvela]

What is the most basic untweeked mono red imperial painter build there is right now? (including Sideboard)
since I want to build it but I can't quikly find the current consensus....I have seen many lists but they differ with lands and or amound of simian guides etc.

[mcbain]

Consult the all mighty front page!

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[cab0747]

Quick question (and there may be a simple answer): Is there an issue with cutting a monkey and adding a 3rd petal? It seems that adding another petal and cutting a monkey might help with the white splash. Pros: white source under moon, can be welded. Cons: You lose a beater, you lose the surprise factor by holding up a money and a blast effect, petal must be cast (pretty much the same as the previous con).

Again, somewhat new to this. Can anyone provide a quick answer?

Thanks!

[Dice_Box]

I think you could do it, but if you are going to go down that path, I would push more Welders too.

Personally I like the surprise of having FOW in hand. That never gets old. If you start pushing away from the Ape, having two cards in hand becomes less of a threat. I have lost count how many times I have gotten the "Cards in hand?" line. People who know the deck treat me like I have Force if I have been holding down cards. I feel like going more down the Petal path limits this. Yes, you have more white open, but if you really need white, you should not be sticking moon. If you are in the need of sticking moon, you should have the time not to need the white. That's a mistake I made when I started with the splash. I kept all the white in the side and only brought it in against matches where the Moons came out.

[Mystic Snake]

There is also an unseen factor here : petal is soft to Thalia, guide is not. I am not usually in a hurry after blood moon, and thus I don't need ultra speed of a tutor. Both are good in some situations but u probably like the ape more overall.

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[Macky984]

I wouldn't put in another Petal for SSG. I like having the ability to play him as a 2/2 after Moon drops.

[jake556]

Having the surprise Monkey + Blast, Daze/Pierce protection, Grindstone activation is worth way more than another W source IMO.

[Macky984]

Any thoughts on adding "Aegis of the Gods" as a one-of in the sideboard?

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Aegis-of-the-Gods-Journey-into-Nyx-Spoiler.jpg

[GoblinZ]

Any thoughts on adding "Aegis of the Gods" as a one-of in the sideboard?

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Aegis-of-the-Gods-Journey-into-Nyx-Spoiler.jpg

Why this？ If you splash white, canonist is far better than this one against storm, and I don't think you should board this against jund or Bug in terms of discard...

[Macky984]

It stops more than just discard. Jace, Lili, Tendrils, Burn, probe, Grindstone (mirror), Intuition, Tormod's, Vendilion Clique, Grapeshot.

It's just like a Leyline except it's a creature (which makes it more vulnerable)but it's searchable with recruiter. Being able to stop a Jace's fateseal and ult... as well as Lili's -2 and Ult seems decent.

If having him out makes my opponent destroy him instead of a painter... I'm cool with that. Plus a 2/1 for the dork beats.

[drude1]

I think it's playable but very susceptible to removal. Canonist is definitely better in most matchups. Having said that, I still play 3 leylines in my board and don't ever see taking them out in the near future. To the previous poster, I also play a split of 3 petal and 2 monkeys. I made this concession mostly for the white (I play a lot of white SB cards) and due to the interaction of welder. Sometimes you really want to weld something out (eg weld out a revoker in response to a swords) and it's nice to have something in the yard. However, I also started testing against the blue/red welder deck and there sometimes the petals hurt you when your opponent has welders too. Meta call.


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[vhirvela]

Consult the all mighty front page!

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I might be a bit dum. but re read the orginal topic 3 times. I did not see a complete decklist!
first decklist was post 3 and that used phyrexian metamorph that I don't think is all that clear cut choice for main because of legendary rules have changed!

Can anyone help a stupid idiot out and post me commonly used main and sideboard of red imperial painter build!:)
Thank you.

[Ish]

Try this:
Go to www.mtgtop8.com. Look through decklists as a starting point
Then... Take the information from page 1, discussions here, and your personal preferences and make adjustments.


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[pinkfrosting]

The last major tournament showing from the mono red version was an impressive 1st place at the starcitygames.com open by Greg Smith. For all the talk about the splash white version the mono-red is the only recent version to take first at a major event.

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=6724&f=LE

Not that the white splash is bad at all, but Greg made a good choice for the meta and ran 6 moon effects main and extra blasts, and it paid off.

[drude1]

The last major tournament showing from the mono red version was an impressive 1st place at the starcitygames.com open by Greg Smith. For all the talk about the splash white version the mono-red is the only recent version to take first at a major event.

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=6724&f=LE

Not that the white splash is bad at all, but Greg made a good choice for the meta and ran 6 moon effects main and extra blasts, and it paid off.

Your take on why the mono red version did well is interesting. I really don't think that it was the one extra moon effect that would have put him over the top compared to a r/w version. In fact, I would argue that a r/w version is much more likely to drop a turn 2 moon vs a mono red version due to its ability to tutor up a moon on turn one.
On the other hand, you could make an argument that the burn plus Chandras are the biggest deviation from a typical r/w version of iPainter. So if you are comfortable replacing welders and tutors for burn and Chandras then this is your deck. I think most people here would argue the contrary. Of note, a blue/red version of painter (without recruiters) just got second last week. This version is extremely combo oriented without any burn at all.
P.s. Both red/white and mono red IPainter run 6 blast effects main.

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[vhirvela]

what is the point of playing 3 x fetch in the main?
If you would play ponder or brainstorm type decks or efect that deal with the top card of your own library I would understand it but with only fetchable land in the deck being basic land mountain and also the favourite 1 turn play being magus of the moon. Why do you wanna play fetches?

Should you play lets say 2-3 Great furnace? Sure you open yourself to a rare wasteland more often but there must be places were it works wonders with gobling weilder!:)

Thanks for the post of the decklist I am starting to have intiitive feel, about decklists which might be tweeks. I think that chandra in the main is quite speculative. Most people seem to agree koth being better and also koth being speculative also!:)

So I ask again. Does anyone have untweeked mono red list handy?
I found this:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/468
If I change the ratio to 4 blood moons and 2 magus of the moon this seems closest I have been able to find. But still I think figure of destiny and magma jet's seem a bit weird! XD

[Kap'n Cook]

@vhirvela

read the entire goddamn first page, not just the first post. Reading before asking is tech. every question you have has already been asked at least twice at some point. there are 3 mono red lists on the first page.

@frosting

white splash has had better placements than mono red since Seth and I came up with the optimal list in January. there are a few i haven't listed yet either.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25661-Deck-Imperial-Painter&p=708885&viewfull=1#post708885

GP top 8 by Lejay (white) > northeast 175 person tourney (white) > midwest starcity (red).


To new people in general:

Please read the old thread and the new thread before asking questions like why do we play fetches. Everyone needs to focus on making the deck better, not reverting back to answering questions that have been answered a million times or ones that are obvious if people actually read the threads. The discussion over the last 5-10 pages has not really added any value whatsoever to be honest. When someone (usually a new player) asks a question we all know the answer to, we should link them to jandax's primer, the old thread, and the first page of this thread. Getting swept up in the bullshit doesn't help anyone.

I'm being a dick, but it's necessary.

[mcbain]

I went 2-2 tonight beating Jund and pox and losing to burn and death and taxes. Well the burn is awful I really struggled against dnt.

Game one I started with Blood moon then got top locked.

For game 2 I boarded out 2 REB, 2 blast, 2 moon for 1 bridge 4 firebolt and 1 ratchet bomb.

Turn 3 I play a revoker and have the choice between his Turn one play, mom or his turn 3 play, vial. I go with vial unfortunately the correct call is definitely the mom. Although I get top locked again well he draws an endless stream of relevant cards.

Anyone have an tech they run in a delver, Jund dnt meta. I've been tinkering around with a stone forge Sideboard, although I'm not convinced.

1 sfm
1 jitte
1 Batterskull
1 sword of light and Shadow

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[Kap'n Cook]

McBain thanks for the post this is good and pushes discussion in the right direction.

Seth knows more about the stoneforge package so I'll leave that to him. Plus, you also faced 4 even to bad matchups, so don't sweat too much.

Obviously the firebolts will work wonders against jund, dnt, and delver. If you want stuff on top of that maybe a tutorable boardwipe like EE. your recruitable options are martyr of ashes, siege gang, or shard Phoenix mainly. Obviously you can skew it further and run stuff like pyroclasm, sudden demise, rolling earthquake if you don't care about being able to tutor it or have the sideboard space to run multiples.




Plus here's a question:

Who has actually tried shard phoenix? Is it too slow? I haven't ever tried it because I do want some grave hate in my board but it's always intrigued me.

[mcbain]

Just off the top of my head I feel it's a bomb vs DNT. Think about it, often these games are long drawn out battles which usually end up in a board state resembling a game of EDH.

I feel being able to "Wrath thier board" every turn of would really seal the deal. Thier mom's would really have to work overtime and revoked on her would most certainly be the right call. Moreover the Phoenix dodges swords to plowshares thier principal form of removal. Although revoker is a thing but it's usually sitting on grindstone anyway.



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[RingoDeathStarr]

Who has actually tried shard phoenix? Is it too slow? I haven't ever tried it because I do want some grave hate in my board but it's always intrigued me.

I've tried it, and I like it reasonably well. It's true that it's slow, but the ability to reuse it is pretty amazing. It's probably at its best against Death and Taxes, I think, and it's a bit slow for Elves, especially on the draw. I also have tried Bloodfire Dwarf and Martyr of Ashes. I actually like Martyr the least, since it requires you to reveal a red card, which sometimes can't happen.
Dwarf is insane against Elves, and I was using one Dwarf and one Phoenix in my SB for a bit.

I don't really know which one, if any, are correct, but none of them seem blatantly wrong either.

[cab0747]

Sulfur Elemental can do some damage to DnT. It doesnt remove stoneforge or Serra Avenger though :(

I haven't tried it in painter (and it isnt tutorable) but it has worked great for me in UWR delver.

[kkoie]

Sulfur Elemental can do some damage to DnT. It doesn't remove stoneforge or Serra Avenger though :(

I haven't tried it in painter (and it isn't tutorable) but it has worked great for me in UWR delver.

I tried sulfur elemental and found out the following problems with it: it doesn't kill revokers that have named "grindstone"; it's useless against other aggro decks that also give me fits (Elves).

The idea of using Shard Phoenix over and over sounds hilarious. I may have to give that one a go. Plus being old-school has a certain style about it that I like. The only concern I have is the casting cost. And I have had many instances with D&T where they've used ports and wastelands to their advantage and kept me off of my mana development.

[rancOr_]

Phoenix is unfortunately way too slow vs the decks where u want him. If you even get to cast it.. I'd stay with trusted Pyroclasm.
I've been playing one MD EE in Jack's list and I really like it so far. Already saved me a couple times where I had bridge lock g1 and had to get rid of DRS(s). Getting rid of vials/being awesome against elves aswell. I'm considering to put a 2nd one in the SB..

[GoblinZ]

Electrickery is the best card agaisnt DnT for sure, the most annoying creatures they have have only one toughness...And it is easy to cast and at instant speed...

Otherwise, I am testing Seige gang commander against miracles, an old tech from the past...It is tutorable and can supplement our beat down strategy

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

I've won a tournament of 32 people in Rome with Imperial Painter, the list is the boros version of the top 8 of GP Paris by Jean-Mary Accart. Undefeated, with a 3-0 and two intentional draws. Thanks to all people that given me some advices and even to all people that has criticized me. The decks I meet was: merfolk, canadian, Food Chain, bug delver, bigger bug, bug control. The deck is going very well even in other little tournaments in Rome. I think that Food Chain is a terrible match-up, but we can lock them in different ways and win with a good race or with a three card combo.

[Kap'n Cook]

Disappointing end to the latest tales of adventure tourney for me. Will writeup some more in depth stuff later. Beat jund, lost to rug then beat deathblade, rug, and team america. Drew a match against miracles that went forever but i still had a shot to win the super quick game 3 but bricked on a third mana twice. I tilted after that and even knew i was tilting but said screw it im going to try to overpower miracles in the last round and lost miserably. I know I played horrible in that last match and If I had been playing like I normally approach miracles I would have had a decent chance at winning. Just couldn't bring myself to slog through another match so that's on me. Overall though a 4-2-1 finish. Don't really feel like anything with the list really needs to change either. I did meet another dude running shortcake who was at least 4-0 or something I think. Not sure about the finish, though. Says he reads this thread but doesn't post so if that's you then certainly nice to meet you.

[FairDecksBoreMe]

I did meet another dude running shortcake who was at least 4-0 or something I think. Not sure about the finish, though. Says he reads this thread but doesn't post so if that's you then certainly nice to meet you.

Well here I am :)

Unfortunately I didn't take any notes but tried to remember the important stuff.

Round 1 vs Punishing Jund 2-0
Round 2 vs Shardless BUG 2-0
Round 3 vs Miracles 2-0
Round 4 vs Veteran Jund Scapeshift Draw
Round 5 vs Team America 1-2
Round 6 vs Jund 1-2
Round 7 vs Death and Taxes 0-2

Started off well but the wheels fell off Round 4. I played my friend Sam who knew that I was on Painter. I birded a match of his earlier and saw a Veteran Explorer in play, so I kind of dreaded the match up. Sam fetched around Blood Moon G1 as much as he could and played an early Slaughter games on my Painter's Servant. I eventually beat him down take the game while he was stuck under a Blood Moon. Another early Slaughter Games on Grindstone and Sam eventually finding his basic forest to cast the two Huntmaster of the Fells that had been stranded in his hand meant he took the long G2. At this point we were the last match still playing and a large group had assembled around us, loudly commenting on our game and on the Pro Tour/being the worst people in the world ever. This is bad because now everyone watching knows I am on Painter. Bad manabases, poor fetching choices, and surprise factor are the primary reasons why Painter can crush in Swiss. Once the cat is out of the bag your free Blood Moon wins disappear.

We eventually draw and someone tells me that it was probably correct to fetch a Welder instead of whatever I had fetched with Imperial Recruiter. I sheepishly reply that I had sided all three Welders out, while simultaneously thinking “If this is Jack Kitchen I will never live this down”. Of course it was. So not only did I draw a match I should absolutely win I also punted and made terrible sideboarding decisions in front of the guy whose primer I've been pouring over :(

Round 5 I play against Team America and of course he fetches basics at every chance and steamrolls me with Goyfs G1. G2 we play a grindy game that I win with good Revoker calls and a clutch Firebolt. G3 is not close as the bridge I find is promptly abrupt decayed after my mull to 5. I ask him if he knew I was on painter and he shrugs. Yep.

Round 6 I play against Jund again. We both mulligan G1 and I joke that all my dredgers must be stuck together. He immediately goes off talking about how he hates dredge and has lost to it a million times, and mentions that he played it last round and luckily drew a punishing fire to nuke his own Deathrite to remove his opponents Bridge From Below. I laugh and debate telling him I am not on dredge but decide against it. I keep an all in on Blood Moon hand, correctly guessing that my opponent kept a “beat dredge” hand consisting of Wasteland and his best friend Wasteland number 2. After the game I apologize that I was making a joke about the dredgers and didn't purposely mislead him. He laughed it off but I still regret not correcting him because I probably would have won the game anyway.

He takes game 2 by beating me down with early Goyfs. My opponent's opening seven for G3 was basic swamp, basic forest, 2x Abrupt Decay, 2x Thoughtseize, and Goyf... a hand I don't beat literally ever on a mulligan.

Overall I thought I played fairly well considering I had been playing the deck for roughly a week. Highlights of the day included activating Koth's ultimate, asking my opponent why he would buy a $330 mountain after casting Blood Moon, and cracking a Ratchet Bomb with one counter to bait my opponent to flip his Top so I could REB it.

[Kap'n Cook]

Haha don't feel bad man. I made mistakes in my miracle matches that cost me top 8. To be fair, the match I saw was against shardless bug round 5 when he had two basics out with something like 1 card in hand. I think you pitched an ssg to cast recruiter (which was perfectly fine) and got revoker. That's when I said welder would've been awesome because you had both painter and stone in yard so any artifact you draw would win you the game in two turns. It's cool though I always enjoy meeting other shortcake players.

[pinkfrosting]

I'm going to a fairly large tournament next week (over 1500$ in prizes) playing white splash for the first time. I know and have played against about half the people going, and decks that will be there are sneak and show, omnitell, ANT, d&t, miracles, jund, and a couple bw stoneblade.

Having never played white splash, what is my approach to the ANT matchup? How do I sideboard/mulligan?

Also, what do most of you board in against jund? I generally go about 50/50 in this matchup with the mono-red version, does the white splash change anything?

[drude1]

Having never played white splash, what is my approach to the ANT matchup? How do I sideboard/mulligan?



Funny you should pose this question. I was testing this matchup extensively yesterday, and as a result, I decided to move the canonist to the main board. If you are playing the standard list, I would swap out one revoker. They literally can't win game with canonist in play, and it will be hard for you to win it without canonist. Otherwise I guess you just bring in all your combo hate. I play leylines as they they don't die to abrupt decay.
With that meta, would seriously consider canonist in main. It's good against elves, storm, food chain, sneak and show, and most other combo decks. It really over performed in my testing.
Also, anyone consider something like rule of law in the board? Obviously would be good against burn, goblins, RUG, etc. but in some matches if you could set your painter on red it could protect your guys from things like jitte, swords, etc. just a thought. As far as mass creature removal. Dwarf seems reasonable, Phoenix seems really slow but not awful. Obviously these are nice because they are tutor able. I've been using sudden demise and have liked them.


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[zangoasyl]

Rule of law? Probably you mean absolute law when assuming a protection against jitte... but I like the idea especially against burn in general and UXr delver variants, where a moonlock still leaves them the lightning bolts! The combo of painter on red and absolute law seems nice as well, but then obviously you are not able anymore to declare blockers, but as an upside you would get rid of all equipments...
Has anyone experience with the card as a one off in the sb?

[drude1]

Oops, yeah, absolute law.
Edit: been trying it and, as long as you bring it in against the right matchups, it's sweet. It got me there against miracles last night. Opponent had jace out and snapcaster and couldn't do anything against me with painter on red. It's fun to frantically watch them search with jace and top and brainstorms and not find anything.


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[Aesir]

You damn Painter players...:tongue:

EDIT: @SCG Somerset, Match V. Deathblade.
EDIT: Woah, just saw his list. No Recruiters...

[GoblinZ]

You damn Painter players...:tongue:

EDIT: @SCG Somerset, Match V. Deathblade.
EDIT: Woah, just saw his list. No Recruiters...

You mean this？

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=67723

I did not watch the live, but I assume it is like something as Two-cards monte

[Dice_Box]

That is the most strange list I have yet to lay eyes on. Served him well I am guessing.

I like the Buried Ruins, I like Welder more.

[Jungian Thing]

Really interesting list, it really ups the white count to bring in some all stars. Not sure about the MD trinisphere, karakas, koth and that emrakul on the sideboard, lot less mana too. I would like to see it played though. Really toolboxy which makes me worry about dead cards in the opening hand. 4th though...

Different colour painter but reminds me of this list (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_blue_painter_with_ma.html) in terms of singletons and trying to squeeze in answers.

[GoblinZ]

Really interesting list, it really ups the white count to bring in some all stars. Not sure about the MD trinisphere, karakas, koth and that emrakul on the sideboard, lot less mana too. I would like to see it played though. Really toolboxy which makes me worry about dead cards in the opening hand. 4th though...

Different colour painter but reminds me of this list (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_blue_painter_with_ma.html) in terms of singletons and trying to squeeze in answers.

I remember Mono-U Painter was called The Epic Painter or something in the past, maybe I was wrong for it was a really old version trying to abuse painter's combo. There were a variety of attempts to abuse this combo in various decks in the past, Mono-U, Imperial painter splashing blue or white for salvager combo, The mighty quinn utilizing painter combo as finisher, Next Level Painter with Countertop and even Dreadnought or UR painter...Apparently, Mono red or RW Imperial painter is still the best today.

I know there is a vintage deck called two card monte playing painter/grindstone combo and Helm/ Leyline combo in the same deck, I think this deck is similar to that in many aspects.

[spector14]

Hello! Let me explain my dilemma:
Yesterday I participated in a tournament of 60 people with the classic list R / W where the result was a 3-4 a lot disappointing; the problem is that during the tournament I suffered from screw or mulligan too often! talking to a guy who was playing the same deck and did 5-2, he confirmed these problems and it has solved the problem this way:

MD:
+4Th city of traitors
-1 Goblin welder

SD:
+1 Goblin welder
-1 Koth of the Hammer

What do you think? You also have this problem?

[ravenklath]

Hello! Let me explain my dilemma:
Yesterday I participated in a tournament of 60 people with the classic list R / W where the result was a 3-4 a lot disappointing; the problem is that during the tournament I suffered from screw or mulligan too often! talking to a guy who was playing the same deck and did 5-2, he confirmed these problems and it has solved the problem this way:

MD:
+4Th city of traitors
-1 Goblin welder

SD:
+1 Goblin welder
-1 Koth of the Hammer

What do you think? You also have this problem?

I have never had real issues with the deck, I play the traditional list with a few sideboard options changed like the Pyrite Spellbomb, and two Koth. I have had to mulligan quite often some tournaments however I know what hands can get there and which ones cant. I also goldfish the deck quite often so I can learn different things with the deck. Practice really is the Key to this deck.

And for the Guy who took 4th at SCG Open, I can only link his success to the odd nature of his deck. His build was perhaps one of the most budget versions of the deck I have ever seen.

[GundamGuy]

You mean this？

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=67723

I did not watch the live, but I assume it is like something as Two-cards monte

I saw some of it live, and it seemed like he was winning mostly off the back of Blood Moon.

That list strikes me as a hot mess, lots of negative synergies in the main and questionable card choices, but it seems to have served him well.

I think his results mostly just speaks to the power of Blood Moon.

[mcbain]

Not that I'm a huge fan of the list I don't think we should be so quite to tear the list apart.

I was brewing some changes the other day with respect to rest in peace and how effective it is at solving a lot of issues for the deck. This list seems like he has take that idea and ran (quite a long way mind you) with it.

It has basically become a control deck with a 5 cards as the kill (grindstone and helm). This would comparable to entreat the angels albeit a bit faster.



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[pinkfrosting]

I think the deck in general focuses more on the late game, using more lock elements to guarantee a lock against any archetype and enough removal to clear the board and stall for a while. The three mainboard enlightened tutors and focus on white means you can grab and play whatever piece is necessary pretty early and then start sniping things until you have what you need to combo.

A different approach, but not a bad one. This deck is far from perfect, there is a lot of room to play around with the build.

Helm as an alt wincon that can't be decayed is really nice, decay is often a difficult card to deal with especially after they've stripped your hand.

[big_ticket]

looks like im trying a new deck for now i dont have recruiters :wink:

http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/16843#237769

[drude1]

Helm as an alt wincon that can't be decayed is really nice, decay is often a difficult card to deal with especially after they've stripped your hand.

First off, although it's true that helm can't be decayed, the combo can. Activate helm, response decay R.I.P. easy enough.

Personally, I think the success of most of the recent lists compared to traditional painter is the creature removal. Don't get me wrong. I'm all for toolbox strategies and run 3 tutors and a canonist main in my list and you could easily still keep a spot for graveyard hate, etc.
But what I don't currently have and need desperately is good main deck creature removal to either turn off their clock (kill delvers, goyfs, etc) and to kill pesky combo killers like opponents' revokers. I would recommend cutting some of the blasts from the main and adding creature removal instead. The other question then is which one. Firebolts do a lot of what we want but the sorcery speed is an issue. Lightning bolts are nice and can be pointed at planeswalkers but can't hit fatties like big goyfs, griselbrand, etc. and are always only 1-for-1. Maybe increasing white splash and using StP is the answer. For people running mono-red lists, you usually play burn right? If so, how important has it been and would it ever be important to take something out that bolts can't handle?
Or what about forked bolt? I could definitely see applications with that as well, especially against death and taxes and elves.


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[Kap'n Cook]

Without diluting the maindeck too much you can run an engineered explosives like seth does. Tutorable, and gets to kill most creatures you're going to care about beyond griselbrand.

[pinkfrosting]

First off, although it's true that helm can't be decayed, the combo can. Activate helm, response decay R.I.P. easy enough.

Personally, I think the success of most of the recent lists compared to traditional painter is the creature removal. Don't get me wrong. I'm all for toolbox strategies and run 3 tutors and a canonist main in my list and you could easily still keep a spot for graveyard hate, etc.k

It still holds an advantage over the painter-grindstone combo against decay. Generally, in jund/bug the line of play is grindstone > painter > decay stone in response to painter. The line of play with the helm combo though is helm > RIP with one mana open. After RIP resloves you're immediately in a game of chicken where you can keep one mana open and it forces him to need two removal spells that can target RIP, for fear of you activating helm in response for one.

In mono-red I ran 3 bolts main. It was generally most important when they open stoneforge turn two, and I bolt eot. This gives painter plenty of time to establish before they get jitte + another creature out to get it online. It's nice to have but in some games it's irrelevant. I did win once in a beaters game with a bolt to the face though :p

[jandax]

I've been off the grid for a month or so. What have I missed?

[mcbain]

Sell your recruiters!

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[cab0747]

Sell your recruiters!

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Woah.... What? I hope your are responding to jandax in jest!

[mcbain]

Of course!


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[jandax]

So besides insider trading tips on selling Recruiters, anything happen in the last month?

[Ish]

So besides insider trading tips on selling Recruiters, anything happen in the last month?

Latest SCG top 8 list is pretty outta the box


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[jandax]

Is that the new R/W standard deck list?

[mcbain]

Not by any means. It's as much shortcake and it is the UR transmute painted stone. Which is a long way of saying it's almost a whole other deck.

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[pinkfrosting]

What do you guys think of 4 leyline of sanctity against decks with lots of hand removal? I remember a few months back watching Huey Jensen play Sneak and Show, another A + B combo deck, and using those to work around thoughtseize/hymn/liliana to great effect. Does it fit this deck? Is it worth the 3-4 board slots?

I should note that in my meta, JUND, BUG, and BW confidant are prevalent enough to justify some form of anti-discard, just not sure if leyline is the best option. If anyone else has tried it let me know how well it worked.

[Hyakumanten]

What do you guys think of 4 leyline of sanctity against decks with lots of hand removal? I remember a few months back watching Huey Jensen play Sneak and Show, another A + B combo deck, and using those to work around thoughtseize/hymn/liliana to great effect. Does it fit this deck? Is it worth the 3-4 board slots?

I should note that in my meta, JUND, BUG, and BW confidant are prevalent enough to justify some form of anti-discard, just not sure if leyline is the best option. If anyone else has tried it let me know how well it worked.

I would play Aegis of the Gods before Leyline. Aegis can be grabbed by both tutors and can put some pressure. Leylines, unless you're running 4 (4 sideboard slots is a lot), you will need to hardcast. And WW can often be a tall order with Wasteland around, especially since there's no W spirit guide. With Goblin Welder, making you discard a combo piece isn't the end of the world as you can always recur it.

[jake556]

Some times it is tough getting under bridge with REB and Enlightened Tutor I could imagine that plus a couple leyline stuck in hand.

[drude1]

As I mentioned previously, I actually run 3 leyline in the board and like them a lot. The problem with Aegis is that it's not dropping until turn 2 and by then it might be too late, especially against combo decks like belcher or ANT where leyline needs to be dropped right away. Obviously good against discard and burn as well (Aegis is worthless against burn).


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[jandax]

Some old doodoo tech from my Mono R-Welder days was Witchbane Orb. You obv don't get to drop it in the opening two turns, but fwiw if all you're facing is Jund/Junk/Pox, they nab one, you weld it in most likely because Wasteland will eat up something you have out, and stuff and things.

[cab0747]

Some old doodoo tech from my Mono R-Welder days was Witchbane Orb. You obv don't get to drop it in the opening two turns, but fwiw if all you're facing is Jund/Junk/Pox, they nab one, you weld it in most likely because Wasteland will eat up something you have out, and stuff and things.

That seems decent.... Now we just need to find a way to get it into the yard early so we can weld out a petal for it T2. Then again, that is asking a lot of your opening hand.

[mcbain]

Pink frosting and I had the privilege of playing the mirror matchup (same 60) Today at a Northwest tourney.

How did the rest of the day go? I left early with friends. Lost to BUG control (again) and a close sneak and show. Beat junk sneak and show and painter.

Some miss plays but mostly out drawn.

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[RingoDeathStarr]

Some love for Kapn's list here today:

http://www.channelfireball.com/home/june-2014-legacy-metagame-analysis/


Also, been playing against 12-post a lot recently, and the match up seems tough. The only games I win are because of Blood Moon followed by dork beatdown, which sometimes isn't fast enough to race a Repeal + Island, or Ensnaring Bridge and Koth, which suffers from the same problem.

Was thinking of running a Rakka Mar to accelerate that plan, or going real deep, an Akki Lavarunner. Flipped Akki Lavarunner w/ a Painter out on red not only deals an insane amount of damage fast with a couple of dorks, but also has protection from everything, and maybe isn't the worst without Painter in that match up or similar ones.

[jandax]

That seems decent.... Now we just need to find a way to get it into the yard early so we can weld out a petal for it T2. Then again, that is asking a lot of your opening hand.

Faithless looting

But in those days I was running 3 Chrome mox and seven moons. It was Welder Stompy with a PS kill. Them's were the good ol' days

[Kap'n Cook]

Certainly nice getting another shout-out like that. Besides the original input from Seth, it's thanks to all of you guys and the other net-decking randos that have tried out shortcake and placed well with it.

[Hyakumanten]

This past weekend, I ran Imperial Painter at GP Manchester Legacy side events (the Treasure Chest on Saturday and Championship on the Sunday). My list is as follows:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Great Furnace

4 Painter's Servant
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Goblin Welder
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Rakka Mar

4 Grindstone
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Blood Moon
1 Koth of the Hammer
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Lotus Petal

Sideboard:
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Rest in Peace
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Manic Vandal
1 Koth of the Hammer
4 Firebolt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Trinisphere

I only own 3 Recruiters, so that's why I didn't run a fourth. However, I really like Koth in the main board as he synergises extremely well with Blood Moon (a very frequent early play) and lets me switch to a very fast aggro mode in case of maindeck Emrakuls. There was never a point at which I felt deperate for a recruiter, so I think even if I had 4, I would cut one for Koth. However, a second one in the board feels like too much. I never put him in, even in matchups where I could see myself going the aggro route. I think in the future, I'm only going to run a single revoker maindeck, put back a Simian Spirit Guide I took out for Rakka Mar.

Speaking of which, Rakka Mar is an absolute all-star. She's able to very quickly close out games where the Painter+Grindstone combo gets hated out and nobody expects her. I ran her of Kargan Dragonlord because she doesn't die to Abrupt Decay, and if I have R when she comes down, there's two threats on the board.

The rest of the list is very standard.

I don't really have any notes from the matchups. On Saturday, I played terribly as I had had 5 hours of sleep the night before and was feeling the effects of a long journey on top of that. I played Tin Fins, Elves, Patriot Delver, and LED Dredge for the first four rounds.

Against Tin Fins, I lost the first game, but then Goblin Welder + Tormod's Crypt kept him off combo long enough for Rakka Mar to get the job done. (2-1)

Against Elves, I combo'ed out fairly early G1. G2, I had stupidly sided out my Blood Moons, and didn't really have anything to prevent him Craterhoofing me into the ground. G3 Blood Moons went back in, along with Firebolts. T1 Blood Moon locked him out of the game as he kept drawing fetches and Bayous. When he finally did draw a forest, I had two Firebolts in hand and just killed him by attacking with three painters on the board. (2-1)

Patriot Delver was kind of an easy matchup. G2 I again stupidly boarded out my Blood Moons. I blame tiredness for my thought process which went 'He uses red, he can still land an early threat and bolt me repeatedly for the win, but he's also on blue, so these Pyrobalsts should stay in.' He boarded in Pyroblasts himself, so these came out G3 and Blood Moon went back in, which locked him out of the game. (2-1)

LED Dredge was a bit of a tough matchup. Couldn't outrace him G1. G2 I cracked an early crypt slowing him down, but he had me dead on board soon after. I managed to topdeck my second crypt, buying me enough time to combo off myself. G3, RiP did what RiP does. (2-1)

At the end of the 4th round, I was in first place with OMW% in the 70s. The only other person on 4-0 had OMW% in the 40s. If he won, I would have come second. If I won, he wouldn't have come second. He offered an ID to secure a chance at the Treasure Chest prizes, which I accepted, making me first overall with 4-0-1.

On Sunday, I punted two games. First against reanimator, I didn't wait for him to name a Reanimate target before exiling his graveyard, so he grabbed the Revoker in mine and named Grindstone when I had the combo out. By the time I realised my error, it was too late. Then against BUG Delver I was on tilt, and kept terrible starting hands that got thoughtseized to shreds. My other games were against MUDpost twice (Goblin Welder sealed the deal for me, they couldn't keep anything on the table in both matches), Maverick and RUG Delver (against Maverick, Blood Moon slowed him down enough that I could take my time comboing off, RUG Delver just conceded to a turn 1 or 2 Blood Moon without a resolved threat). I came in 4-2, 12th place.

[cab0747]

This past weekend, I ran Imperial Painter at GP Manchester Legacy side events (the Treasure Chest on Saturday and Championship on the Sunday). My list is as follows:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Great Furnace

4 Painter's Servant
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Goblin Welder
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Rakka Mar

4 Grindstone
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Blood Moon
1 Koth of the Hammer
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Lotus Petal

Sideboard:
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Rest in Peace
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Manic Vandal
1 Koth of the Hammer
4 Firebolt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Trinisphere


The manabase here seems much more susceptible to Wasteland. Have you experienced an issue with this yet? Blood Moon takes care of the wasteland problem, but running the Shortcake list means less T1 moon effects.

I am not criticizing the list at all, I am simply curious to see if wasteland has been a problem for you.

Thanks and congrats on the finishes!

[Hyakumanten]

The manabase here seems much more susceptible to Wasteland. Have you experienced an issue with this yet? Blood Moon takes care of the wasteland problem, but running the Shortcake list means less T1 moon effects.

I am not criticizing the list at all, I am simply curious to see if wasteland has been a problem for you.

Thanks and congrats on the finishes!

I didn't have any problems in the games I played. It's occasionally really awkward when the only land I have left in play is a City of Traitors, but so far it hasn't caused any real problems for me. Opening with just an Arid Mesa rather than a Sol Land makes my opponent much more likely to do something other than drop a wasteland on me, and then Ancient Tomb into Blood Moon T2 turns wasteland off. Most people don't have enough experience playing against Painter, so a T1 Mesa isn't going to set off any specific alarms in their heads. It looks a lot more like the opening play of a Patriot Delver or Miracles player who kept a bad hand.

I really wanted a plains as before I got my second and third recruiters, I was running extra enlightened tutors, and it makes Ensnaring Bridge less good if I can't cast my spells under a Blood Moon. I kept the mana base from then as I never really had a compelling enough reason to change it.

I could replace the furnaces and one city with more mountains, but I haven't felt the need to.

[Jungian Thing]

@Kapn, have you gone camera shy? I haven't seen a new video for over a week and I am getting withdrawals from not watching you chug beer and go pee... Keep them up, they have been very helpful, I am at the stage now where I am making the plays in my head, mostly, the same as you - same with sideboard choices.

I have been playing randoms at my LGS and doing quite well, although my win streak against elves (15-0) came to an abrupt end last week with 3 straight losses. One of the things I find is I am on a vulnerable play with a moon out and a combo piece and I am not convinced of the win and I look up to see my opponent packing up their cards and I have to convince them to put them down that victory is not assured and I want to see how it plays out. Same with having painter and grindstone out unprotected, it's a scoop and I feel like I actually didn't get to play the important part of the game.

My random pimp project is reaching the final stages where my card sources are drying up but I am 48 main deck and 9 sideboard (some still in the mail) into it so far. I am going for alters, signatures, miscuts (three so far) and misprints (did you know revised plateau was a misprint with wrong artist?). I will post pictures (in the pimp thread) when I am ready for a showing. If you are interested, I have a spare altered great furnace. Manic Vandal though, that card gets no love, the artist must be dead and the alterers have better things to do... that leaves commissioning something but who would pay to alter a manic vandal?

[Kap'n Cook]

Not camera shy, just not wanting to stay up till 2am or later and then wake up early. I was busy most of last weekend too so that took away from at least one stream.

As for random thoughts I had over the past month or two, the 1 of faithless looting in shortcake over the 3rd top is not what the deck wants. It's a midgame tool to pitch dead stuff, but white excels in getting what you need early and the 3rd top helps much more in the harder matchups as well as ensuring you don't have dead shit in the midgame. I know I suggested it as a way to filter through looking for mana but its really not needed. 19 lands has almost never been a problem. The deck is fully operational at 2-3 lands. The pyrite spellbomb I'm still undecided on. Will report back later on that

[Jungian Thing]

I was busy most of last weekend too so that took away from at least one stream.

I see what you did there...

[RingoDeathStarr]

I've been testing a blue splash for Dack Fayden with quite a bit of success for the last week. Here's the list I'm using:

4 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
5 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Great Furnace

2 Lotus Petal
3 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Goblin Welder
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Dack Fayden


SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Manic Vandal
SB: 3 Firebolt
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Koth of the Hammer
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast

I basically just smashed together the fast mana/goblin welder package from the white splash with a mono red list because of the obvious synergy with Dack, and I've been finding it very consistent with 6 repeatable sources of library manipulation. Often times, you can see 40 cards throughout a longer game, which matches or dwarfs most decks. Additionally, Dack's -2 is sometimes relevant, ie targeting SDT and grinding it away against Miracles, or being an answer to Umezawa's Jitte that you'd usually need Revoker for. The list definitely seems more geared towards the longer, prison control games, and is slightly less capable of beatdown than some lists, but can play all the different styles of game that most painter decks could - which is important as it is the justification for not going totally U/R Painted Stone and grabbing the Brainstorms, artifact lands, Transmute Artifact and Forces or whatever, which has it's own set of weaknesses that Mono Red and R/W do not necessarily share.

The Island and Volcanic Island split was initially due to budget restraints, but feels good due to wanting to cast Blood Moon and later cast Dack, or vice versa. SB I have no real idea, I took some ideas from Mono Red and the U/R Painter lists, but I'm still messing around with. Llawan seems great in Sneak and Show or 12 Post match ups.

One option the U/R dudes obviously know about would be to cut some card (dunno which, maybe a welder or a top or jaya) MD for a Trinket Mage, and then have Engineered Explosives and Pithing Needle in the board.

Let me know if you have any thoughts on the list. Thanks!

[cab0747]

I've been testing a blue splash for Dack Fayden with quite a bit of success for the last week. Here's the list I'm using:

4 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
5 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Great Furnace

2 Lotus Petal
3 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Goblin Welder
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Dack Fayden


SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Manic Vandal
SB: 3 Firebolt
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Koth of the Hammer
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast

I basically just smashed together the fast mana/goblin welder package from the white splash with a mono red list because of the obvious synergy with Dack, and I've been finding it very consistent with 6 repeatable sources of library manipulation. Often times, you can see 40 cards throughout a longer game, which matches or dwarfs most decks. Additionally, Dack's -2 is sometimes relevant, ie targeting SDT and grinding it away against Miracles, or being an answer to Umezawa's Jitte that you'd usually need Revoker for. The list definitely seems more geared towards the longer, prison control games, and is slightly less capable of beatdown than some lists, but can play all the different styles of game that most painter decks could - which is important as it is the justification for not going totally U/R Painted Stone and grabbing the Brainstorms, artifact lands, Transmute Artifact and Forces or whatever, which has it's own set of weaknesses that Mono Red and R/W do not necessarily share.

The Island and Volcanic Island split was initially due to budget restraints, but feels good due to wanting to cast Blood Moon and later cast Dack, or vice versa. SB I have no real idea, I took some ideas from Mono Red and the U/R Painter lists, but I'm still messing around with. Llawan seems great in Sneak and Show or 12 Post match ups.

One option the U/R dudes obviously know about would be to cut some card (dunno which, maybe a welder or a top or jaya) MD for a Trinket Mage, and then have Engineered Explosives and Pithing Needle in the board.

Let me know if you have any thoughts on the list. Thanks!

I like this list and I really like the Trinket Mage idea. I have everything for this in paper (except the Dack) and I would like to give this a shot. Once Legacy Masters comes to MTGO, I will price out the rest of what I would need to run this list. I brought this up with the RW version earlier and I think it may be even more important with this list: I would consider running a 3rd petal over the 3rd SSG. With blood moon on, unless you fetch or draw an island early, Dack might be sitting in your hand for a bit. With him being your fastest route to the combo, I wouldn't like to be put in this situation. However, this is coming from me simply looking at this list and not playing it yet.

[RingoDeathStarr]

I actually haven't had Dack stranded in my hand yet with the set up as is, however, despite how promising it has been so far, I've probably played less than 60 matches with it, and could just be running hot on being able to cast him. I've definitely been playing with casting him in mind though, so I'm usually fetching an Island if I have other red sources and/or a Blood Moon, or rarely a Volcanic if there isn't any threat of Wasteland, or if it's too important to have access to both colors early to play around. Realistically, 90% of the time Island has been a better target than Volcanic, though, so it's possible that switching to 3 x Petal and 2 x SSG could be enough to just ditch the Volcanic entirely for a second Island, though there are definitely situations in which you could be punished severely for not having the dual.

[Moa]

So this is the painter list that placed well at SCG somerset

Creatures (8)

4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Planeswalkers (1)

1 Koth of the Hammer
Lands (19)

4 Mountain
4 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Arid Mesa
2 Buried Ruin
1 Plateau
1 Karakas
Spells (32)

2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grindstone
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Trinisphere
4 Blood Moon
1 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Rest in Peace
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Faithless Looting
2 Pyroclasm
Sideboard

1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Rest in Peace
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Wear
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Pyroclasm
1 Wrath of God

If you were to build a painters list to be playable without recruiters how would you tune this list?

[Ish]

If you were to build a painters list to be playable without recruiters how would you tune this list?

Recruiters are to essential to this deck. I mean c'mon its the namesake of the deck!!!!! IMPERIAL painter


Try U/R painter or "painted stone". There is a separate thread for it. It's still a viable competitive deck, but very different from this deck.


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[Jungian Thing]

It's a funny brew and obviously did ok on the day. I was hoping the pilot would make an appearance somewhere to discuss it. In their opinion, why did it place? etc. There is a lot to be said about copying an archetype enough to win by misinformation. The tool box win con approach is forty cards short of the format that tactic is better suited to.

The thing I always find disappointing about these types of brews is that they are not some innovative new archetype but rather a smear on an existing one, which is ok if that archetype has stagnated and needs a big shock to break it open again but it is just not as interesting and shortcake is doing ok anyway.

Hope that didn't come across badly, I am all for innovation with context just don't know anything about the context.

[cab0747]

If you were to build a painters list to be playable without recruiters how would you tune this list?

From what other's have said, this guy rode Blood Moon pretty much the whole day. I am hesitant to say that the list isn't good, but this deck needs recruiters to run optimally.

If you are not interested in running recruiters, take a look at a few other decks: Parfait and/or The Mighty Quinn. Both play a controlling game and look to mill the opponent out with the Painter/Stone combo or the Helm/RiP combo. Both decks are white heavy, neither user recruiters, and there are MANY splashes for Parfait with red being the most common for blood moon, I believe.

[Jungian Thing]

Blood moon for the bloody win!

And Jack, you have been taking a beating on the vids over the last couple of days... That groan tilt you have going on is almost perfected!

P.S. I have PMed you.

[Dice_Box]

Blood Moon is good yes, but it's not the be all and end all. If it was, I would think Stompy would be in the top spot right now. I think what makes this deck potent is not only does it have Moon, it has other Locks as well to back it up. The ability to win from under a bridge for example is quite potent. Painters strength is that it can play control, then play combo, should the need arise. If you want to be good with your control through, you need a toolbox. That's where I think Recruiter shines.

I have lent this deck out, then tested against it, when someone looks for Painter while I am playing Jund, I smile. Sometimes that one track mind will kill you.

[Moa]

Yeah they are different decks, I've looked at the quinn and parfait decks but the primary reason I'm looking at this deck is that I can build it into a true imperial painter deck. I watched the matches with the deck and the interview with the pilot and it was pretty clear that he blood mooned his way through the tournament. Fundamentally I think there is more similarity between this deck and imperial painter because both are toolbox combo/prison decks that use a tutor engine to find a suite of silver bullets or to assemble the combo.

I'm mostly curious how you guys would alter this list having played a similar list as the list I posted looks pretty janky even given its lack of recruiters, particularly the sideboard.

[Dice_Box]

I would double down on the control. Add in the 4th Enlightened, add in some number of Magus even if you can't tutor for them and then I would think about the Welder/Faithless engine. I think really, that's where I would start now I think about it. If you don't have one engine, use the other. Petal becomes a must then too.

When I get home I think I might see if I can build what I am thinking, post up a more detailed list. If I do though it will be in a new thread, not here. I do not think that it belongs here. Asking for our help though, I think that's the right call. The decks will be closely related only running slightly different paths.

[Kap'n Cook]

I'll post my thoughts on the non-rec list had changes tomorrow. And don't worry about the beats I've been epic storming back above 100 ( I think my low point?) I'll be back on the grind in no time (pun intended)

-jkitch

[Moa]

I would double down on the control. Add in the 4th Enlightened, add in some number of Magus even if you can't tutor for them and then I would think about the Welder/Faithless engine. I think really, that's where I would start now I think about it. If you don't have one engine, use the other. Petal becomes a must then too.

When I get home I think I might see if I can build what I am thinking, post up a more detailed list. If I do though it will be in a new thread, not here. I do not think that it belongs here. Asking for our help though, I think that's the right call. The decks will be closely related only running slightly different paths.

If you get around to it feel free to send me a PM link to the new thread as I would like to see what you do with it.

Also Jared Boettcher's grixis painter deck is pretty cool to watch, again not imperial painter but a cool rogue variation.

[GundamGuy]

Blood Moon is good yes, but it's not the be all and end all. If it was, I would think Stompy would be in the top spot right now. I think what makes this deck potent is not only does it have Moon, it has other Locks as well to back it up. The ability to win from under a bridge for example is quite potent. Painters strength is that it can play control, then play combo, should the need arise. If you want to be good with your control through, you need a toolbox. That's where I think Recruiter shines.

I have lent this deck out, then tested against it, when someone looks for Painter while I am playing Jund, I smile. Sometimes that one track mind will kill you.

I think there was more to it then him just riding Blood Moon all day.

Everyone noticed he doesn't have Recruiters in his list but no one is talking about the other unusual cards he had in his list. Swords to Plowshares Main, Pyroclasm Main, Oblivion Ring Main... with access to even more sweepers and spot removal in the side.

Now I agree that no Recruiters is sub-optimal, but perhaps the real lesson we should be playing main-deck removal spells in the current meta? It's one of the things about the Enlightened Patienter that I miss the most from Imperial Painter. Those MD Lightning Bolts / Firebolt, might be really good in this more "Fair Deck" meta, and honestly that's what I'm trying to find space for in my current build.

[Kap'n Cook]

I mean you are free to run bolts md in shortcake you'll just need to cut a bridge, a welder, a revoker, and another of those three (if you want 4) to squeeze them in since I think the rest of the shell is stretched far enough as is.

Shortcake is designed to have broad game against every deck in the format game one, hence the hate cards over removal. I dropped removal to the sideboard because I hated having bolts against combo/control decks and revokers solved at least some of that while providing splash hate for most creatures you care about (drs, stoneforge) the others are handled by blasts or bridge(delver, snap, tnn, goyf) Of course confidant and goblin guide decks get much worse. but I think gains against sneak show, tempo decks and unfair decks using revokers outweighs lower creature percentages. Plus 3 welders attacks from such a different angle it makes it hard for most decks to deal with everything game 1.

[Jelmerz77]

I'm putting painter back together. That blue splash looks interesting.
I'm going to take that to a tournament Sunday.

Looks really interesting...

[RingoDeathStarr]

I'm putting painter back together. That blue splash looks interesting.
I'm going to take that to a tournament Sunday.

Looks really interesting...

Cool, let me know what you think. I'm trying Trinket Mage w/Engineered Explosives and a Meekstone in the board right now. Not sure if I like it more than the list at the top of the thread.

[mcbain]

I mean you are free to run bolts md in shortcake you'll just need to cut a bridge, a welder, a revoker, and another of those three (if you want 4) to squeeze them in since I think the rest of the shell is stretched far enough as is.

Shortcake is designed to have broad game against every deck in the format game one, hence the hate cards over removal. I dropped removal to the sideboard because I hated having bolts against combo/control decks and revokers solved at least some of that while providing splash hate for most creatures you care about (drs, stoneforge) the others are handled by blasts or bridge(delver, snap, tnn, goyf) Of course confidant and goblin guide decks get much worse. but I think gains against sneak show, tempo decks and unfair decks using revokers outweighs lower creature percentages. Plus 3 welders attacks from such a different angle it makes it hard for most decks to deal with everything game 1.
I agree with you here. For the last while I have been leaning towards the mono red more bolt orientated deck. The list would harken back to 2013 Johnathan suaruz.

The times you want bolts are generally to deal with clocks from tempo decks. This is further complicated in short cake due to the increased effectiveness of wasteland. The mono red package usually has an easier time stabilizing to allow for a kill without the need to over extend into a bolt, sword or stifle.


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[teonsw]

What do you guys think of this decklist that top 8'd the SCG invitational.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=68869

Its not very traditional from the point of blood moon.

[mcbain]

What do you guys think of this decklist that top 8'd the SCG invitational.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=68869

Its not very traditional from the point of blood moon.
Well it does contain two Imperial recruiter and it is interesting I would strongly argue this belongs in the "painted stone" category (i.e. Blue red welder).

It is an interesting deck but I don't believe it is meant for this forum.

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[drude1]

So, what I find interesting about the less traditional painter variants that have done well recently is that they are mixing combos more. The invitational list had counterbalance and a lot of spot removal and the other list had thopter/sword combo. As my concern is more for the tempo (ie. delver) decks that are so popular right now, I ended up adding that combo to shortcake and it has performed extremely well. Trying to assemble the painter combo against RUG delver is near impossible. But if you concentrate on going after the thopter combo right away it works out very well. Also, you can just shave numbers a little to fit this combo in without changing the deck significantly. I still play 4 blood moon main so the mana needed to be tweaked considerably but the base of the deck hasn't changed. Kapn talked about trying to fit in a secondary strategy a couple months ago and I actually think that's what has made these new hybrid decks so successful. Other combinations are certainly viable as well. I just think that people are ill prepared for thopter combo right now.


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[mcbain]

So, what I find interesting about the less traditional painter variants that have done well recently is that they are mixing combos more. [...] I still play 4 blood moon main so the mana needed to be tweaked considerably but the base of the deck hasn't changed. Kapn talked about trying to fit in a secondary strategy a couple months ago and I actually think that's what has made these new hybrid decks so successful. Other combinations are certainly viable as well. I just think that people are ill prepared for thopter combo right now.


I would argue that assembling the combo against RUG isn't that hard. You have 3 welders and 4 painters. They have 4 bolts traditionally. However assembling the combo under a clock can be more difficult. I would reference back to a discussion a few posts ago about the inclusion of our own bolts.

Regarding your mixing combos discussion I would imagine your lists is something like this:

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Great Furnace
5 Red Fetches
4 Mountain
2 plateau

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
1 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Goblin Welder
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lotus Petal
1 thopter foundry
1 sword of the meek

4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 enlightened tutor

I guess you could argue for the inclusion of blue lands but I feel lotus petal is really strong with welder. Perhaps a faithless looting or two could be included to ditch the foundry if it gets stuck in your hand. I would argue against the inclusion of more non-basic lands.

[Kap'n Cook]

We don't need additional combos. We already play one card combos in addition to painter: blood moon and ensnaring bridge. the only time it makes sense is a one of in the board that already exists because of other cards: aka tormods crypt for 3 card painter or helm because a list runs RIPs. Anything else is just watering the deck down.

[GoblinZ]

It is not worth playing thopter combo, it is not strong enough at all...

[drude1]

It is not worth playing thopter combo, it is not strong enough at all...


We don't need additional combos. We already play one card combos in addition to painter: blood moon and ensnaring bridge. the only time it makes sense is a one of in the board that already exists because of other cards: aka tormods crypt for 3 card painter or helm because a list runs RIPs. Anything else is just watering the deck down.

Well again, you'll have to tell that to all the people top 8ing with hybrid lists. And yes, the problem playing against delver, assuming you didn't immediately lock them out of the game with moon, is that they are clocking you for 6 points a turn while you are trying to keep a painter on the board. One or two burn spells along with one timely stifle and it's over. Not to mention that BUG delver is very popular right now, making bridges minimally viable.
I still like the standard list in general, and maybe the inclusion of some burn would do the trick, but I've just had a lot of success with coming from multiple angles. Does it have to be thopter? No. But the linear nature of the current build is it's biggest weakness when the meta is all tempo. Besides, if you really want to be all in on the combo, why not just play the U/R intuition version. It's a full turn faster and combo is much more resilient...but also folds to tempo decks.




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[GoblinZ]

Well again, you'll have to tell that to all the people top 8ing with hybrid lists.

Actually the hybrid lists you mentioned are not really imperial painter at all, not every painter deck needs to be discussed in this thread.

I just don't see why thopter combo is more crucial against tempo decks than other parts of the deck...we already have had a tons of serious threat they must answer, wasting room for random combo is not worth it. If you expect a lot of Thresh, just play one of two copies of spellskite in the maindeck, and play more magus if you expect a lot of BUG variants.

I agree with you that the current RW version is more linear compared to the traditional mono red version. I personally don't like playing E-tutor and still play 3 bolts. I like Bolt very much, it is time walk against tempo or elves decks.

[drude1]

Actually the hybrid lists you mentioned are not really imperial painter at all, not every painter deck needs to be discussed in this thread.

I'm not saying those lists were imperial painter, although the invitational list did include it. My point is what makes those lists so much more successful than the Ipainter lists? The common element is that they are really diversifying their threats. If you wanted to build a heavy burn aspect into an Ipainter list, that may also work. But 2-3 copies of a bolt spell isn't cutting it. The reason I'm talking about it on this thread is because I'm still interested in playing with the Ipainter skeleton (I've invested too much to not), but just want to explore better alternate win cons or defenses then trying to hold off with 1/x or 2/x dorks.


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[Kap'n Cook]

I'm not saying those lists were imperial painter, although the invitational list did include it. My point is what makes those lists so much more successful than the Ipainter lists? The common element is that they are really diversifying their threats. If you wanted to build a heavy burn aspect into an Ipainter list, that may also work. But 2-3 copies of a bolt spell isn't cutting it. The reason I'm talking about it on this thread is because I'm still interested in playing with the Ipainter skeleton (I've invested too much to not), but just want to explore better alternate win cons or defenses then trying to hold off with 1/x or 2/x dorks.


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I would argue that shortcake has performed much better than either of those lists over the course of multiple tournaments

[LeoCop 90]

i don't understand people arguing that shortcake is a too much linear deck. it is probably the less linear deck i've ever played. Yes, it is consistent in finding the combo due to enlightened tutor, but it attacks from a lot of other angles. Blood moon/Magus is a must answer against a majority of the field, ensnaring bridge locks some decks, then we have rest in peace from the sideboard which kills a part of the format. We even have another combo with helm of obedience, as well as th much needed burn in the board. If you really feel like you need another combo main deck (i don't think is necessary) just move 1 rest in peace and helm of obedience main deck. At least rest in peace has broad applications , differently from sword of the meek and thopter foundry.

[drude1]

i don't understand people arguing that shortcake is a too much linear deck. it is probably the less linear deck i've ever played. Yes, it is consistent in finding the combo due to enlightened tutor, but it attacks from a lot of other angles. Blood moon/Magus is a must answer against a majority of the field, ensnaring bridge locks some decks, then we have rest in peace from the sideboard which kills a part of the format. We even have another combo with helm of obedience, as well as th much needed burn in the board. If you really feel like you need another combo main deck (i don't think is necessary) just move 1 rest in peace and helm of obedience main deck. At least rest in peace has broad applications , differently from sword of the meek and thopter foundry.

Everything you mention above helps control the game in order to to deploy your strategy. None of them win you the game. You still have to activate a grindstone with painter successfully staying on the board or beat down with little dorks. Helm/rip is a potential alternative combo that you could play. The problem is that it doesn't interact with welders very well. I've also added tangle wires to take the blood moon/prison idea even further. That plan is successful in locking opponents out for a time but sometimes the combo is still either too fragile or they have Eldrazi/etc in the deck.
That's why I think you still need another way to win. Maybe it's even just running a couple planeswalkers main. I'm just saying, right now I really like this mini combo:
1 x stoneforge mystic
1 x jitte
1 x sword of the meek
1 x thopter foundry

The only problem is getting the thopter into play under a moon, so I cut the SSGs and play 4 petal and one mox opal.

And as far as traditional Ipainter putting up better numbers, what have you done for me lately? It's now a known commodity, and people are playing basics (even in delver now) and auto setting revokers and needles to grindstone, etc. look at the last 8+ major tournament T8s and tell me what you see.
This thread is for innovation I thought. Just trying to throw out other ideas.



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[Wincheee]

Hey guys! what about the RW Painter. top 8 in a Scg Open last month.


Creatures (8)

4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Planeswalkers (1)

1 Koth of the Hammer
Lands (19)

4 Mountain
4 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Arid Mesa
2 Buried Ruin
1 Plateau
1 Karakas
Spells (32)

2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grindstone
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Trinisphere
4 Blood Moon
1 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Rest in Peace
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Faithless Looting
2 Pyroclasm

Sideboard

1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Rest in Peace
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Wear
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Pyroclasm
1 Wrath of God


i know it have a couples of anti-synergies, but it have a lot of "must counter/destroy" cards, Rest in peace shoots down Shaman, goyfs,and a large etc, and combo with helm.( a way better than thopter/sword. is a 1 activation and win).

Thoughts?

[teonsw]

Hey guys! what about the RW Painter. top 8 in a Scg Open last month.

i know it have a couples of anti-synergies, but it have a lot of "must counter/destroy" cards, Rest in peace shoots down Shaman, goyfs,and a large etc, and combo with helm.( a way better than thopter/sword. is a 1 activation and win).

Thoughts?

This version has been brought up on the previous page. It is a budget build that mostly won on the back of blood moon.

[chrstphrbrnnn]

Hey guys, just out of curiosity but how come IP doesn't play a Batterskull in the board? We have the ability to tutor for it, which also puts it on top of the deck so that it could be grinded into yard and welded into play. We have Welder to protect it/get it back if it's destroyed. We have sol lands to hammer it out faster. Is it just that it costs 5 or is it bridge? Seems like it'd be okay when you wanna go on the beatdown plan or need to gain some life and slow the game down. Bridge could be welded out so that you can swing and then welded back in. Guess that plan all hinges on multiple welders tho. Guess it's just the anti-synergy with bridge then?

[cab0747]

This version has been brought up on the previous page. It is a budget build that mostly won on the back of blood moon.

To expand on this further: This deck was more control oriented and was looking to buy time to get into the combo rather than being able to find it using recruiters. Using this makes it something other than Imperial Painter. It has answers to a lot of things, but you have to luck into the combo. The only digging this deck has is Top, which can be slow and mana intensive, and Looting. I don't know... He tried something new and it clearly worked for him. Kudos to him for that.

To be honest, if I played more Legacy I would give this a shot from time to time just to see exactly how it works. However, with me only getting to jam this deck (Shortcake or Mono-Red) 1-2 times each week, I feel like I want to go with a proven list until I feel comfortable with it. However, I would be very excited to have someone else play this from time to time and report back. It seems interesting, but again,it is not Imperial Painter.

Edit: I lied. The version being discussed can pull the combo with E. Tutor. I guess it isn't all luck. The more I look at this, it seems like a cross between Imperial Painter and Parfait.

[drude1]

Hey guys! what about the RW Painter. top 8 in a Scg Open last month.


Creatures (8)

4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Planeswalkers (1)

1 Koth of the Hammer
Lands (19)

4 Mountain
4 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Arid Mesa
2 Buried Ruin
1 Plateau
1 Karakas
Spells (32)

2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grindstone
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Trinisphere
4 Blood Moon
1 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Rest in Peace
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Faithless Looting
2 Pyroclasm

Sideboard

1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Rest in Peace
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Wear
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Pyroclasm
1 Wrath of God


i know it have a couples of anti-synergies, but it have a lot of "must counter/destroy" cards, Rest in peace shoots down Shaman, goyfs,and a large etc, and combo with helm.( a way better than thopter/sword. is a 1 activation and win).

Thoughts?

So, several different lines of play for the win, but no recruiters and just a hodge-podge of cards. But still serves to prove my point.
As for batterskull, I think it's viable, and in my 4 card combo I keep switching out the jitte with batterskull in SB and vice versa. Again, I'm not stone set on thopter combo but synergies well with stoneforge that you can search out with recruiter.


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[Wincheee]

I think we need to focus on the better deck for our combo (Painter and Grindstone), no matter if it have Imperial recruiter or not, cause' that creature is in the deck to find PAINTER'S SERVANT. is only a tutor. we don't need to create other post for the same combo,without the recruiterr, i think we want to win with the combo in first place, don't crucify me just for not use IMPERIAL RECRUITER. :P

[cab0747]

I think we need to focus on the better deck for our combo (Painter and Grindstone), no matter if it have Imperial recruiter or not, cause' that creature is in the deck to find PAINTER'S SERVANT. is only a tutor. we don't need to create other post for the same combo,without the recruiterr, i think we want to win with the combo in first place, don't crucify me just for not use IMPERIAL RECRUITER. :P

Using this logic, we could just merge The Mighty Quinn thread with this one.

Blah blah blah. Slippery slope n' stuff.

Either way, we are getting off-topic.

[Wincheee]

you need to pull off the "imperial recruiters fan" t-shirt...

[cab0747]

you need to pull off the "imperial recruiters fan" t-shirt...

If I came off as argumentative, I apologize. That was not my intent. There have been discussion in the thread before about what all qualifies as Imperial Painter. Disagreeing about what should be discussed in this thread doesn't get anyone anywhere. Because of this, I will shut up now.

Again, I apologize for the way my earlier remarks sounded.

[Will_L]

This thread, as I understand it, is specifically for Imperial Painter and not just any Painter's Servant deck.

[Moomba]

This thread, as I understand it, is specifically for Imperial Painter and not just any Painter's Servant deck.

Pretty much this, it's why the UR Painter's Stone has its own thread. Either have Recruiters or don't post in the Imperial Painter thread.

[LeoCop 90]

Everything you mention above helps control the game in order to to deploy your strategy. None of them win you the game. You still have to activate a grindstone with painter successfully staying on the board or beat down with little dorks. Helm/rip is a potential alternative combo that you could play. The problem is that it doesn't interact with welders very well

Well, I don't think you strictly need 2 different combos to straight out win the game in main deck. Extra combos can be useful out of the board against decks playing needle/revoker or surgical extraction. In game 1, shortcake is versatile enough to win with fast combo, control the game or even go beatdown mode.

Let me clarify a little bit : I am not entirely adverse about playing another combo main deck, but it is a matter of balancing consistency and versatility. We already play 1-of cards (jaya, koth) , 2 -of cards (top, welder,) , lock pieces , blasts , as well as grindstone and painter. We are able to do this thanks to enlightened tutor wich ensures both consistency (find combo pieces) and versatility (find silver bullets). I am afraid that including even another combo could make the deck a bit too inconsistent (i already notice some sketchy hands and mulligans playing shortcake). But in the end we are talking about 2 cards so if you feel you need this extra combo you can go for it.

[zangoasyl]

Drude, did you continue some testing with absolute law? I'm curious about it...

[drude1]

Drude, did you continue some testing with absolute law? I'm curious about it...

I did. It's definitely worth considering for some matchups. It's obviously bonkers against burn, goblins, RUG delver, etc. it was surprisingly good against miracles as you could set painter to red and then their jaces, swords, and targeted artifact removal were shut off. They could only disrupt you with terminus. Just doesn't work at all against other creature heavy strategies unless you have bridge out. It also turns off some of your cards like Jaya and sometimes welder on your own creatures. My list currently has become very welder dependent (I'm playing 4 copies) as I'm now on tangle wire for more of a prison strategy. So, right now I'm less keen on absolute law. I considered switching to absolute grace which would turn my cards back on and still give me game against miracles and such and would also shut off abrupt decay against me. It just doesn't give you the natural advantage against burn removal.


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[drude1]

Well, I don't think you strictly need 2 different combos to straight out win the game in main deck. Extra combos can be useful out of the board against decks playing needle/revoker or surgical extraction. In game 1, shortcake is versatile enough to win with fast combo, control the game or even go beatdown mode.

Let me clarify a little bit : I am not entirely adverse about playing another combo main deck, but it is a matter of balancing consistency and versatility. We already play 1-of cards (jaya, koth) , 2 -of cards (top, welder,) , lock pieces , blasts , as well as grindstone and painter. We are able to do this thanks to enlightened tutor wich ensures both consistency (find combo pieces) and versatility (find silver bullets). I am afraid that including even another combo could make the deck a bit too inconsistent (i already notice some sketchy hands and mulligans playing shortcake). But in the end we are talking about 2 cards so if you feel you need this extra combo you can go for it.

So you already have an alternate win condition in the Koth main (not all lists, including the "official" shortcake list play Koth main). Why not add an alternate win con that you can search for and can manipulate with welders?

Having said that, I'm seeing some issues with thopter combo, mostly the issue of getting my mana to work consistently enough to support a third color. I actually like stoneforge as a possibility as you can put in one copy to search out with recruiters and the jitte is great to deal with certain opponents' strategies, particularly D&T.

I also encourage people to consider trying tangle wires main. Although they don't directly win you the game, they do an amazing job at shutting down opponents while you set up. Welders have amazing synergy with them. I've had several games where my opponent never gets to play with more than one mana at a time even by turn 10 or so. It also supplies you with some sort of prison style element even when your opponent is playing with a lot of basics.


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[cab0747]

Well, it seems burn has blown up since this past weekend's SCG Open. In the last 2 dailies I have played burn 5/8 matches and 3/4 in the most recent event. It seems that Imperial Painter may be in a tough spot right now (on MODO at least).

Has anyone else experienced this or am I getting very unlucky? According to MTGO Goldfish, Burn is now the 3rd most popular deck (but is not up-to-date and I would assume that the number of decks recorded will go up).

I am thinking of switching to Belcher for a bit and waiting for this recent spike in Burn to die down. Has anyone really tailored their sideboard to combat burn? I would imagine with Shortcake it would be possible (4 Leyline 4 Warmth). However, I would NEVER go into a GP or Open with that kind of SB. It seems like it isn't even worth it if I am trying to improve my play with the deck.

Anyway, I just wanted to get some thoughts on this situation.
Thanks!

[jandax]

From my experience, opposing Red decks are always unpleasant. You can SB accordingly if you know you're going to face it quite a bit. Leylines almost shut the deck down, and if you're running white I'd drop the stone and go RipHelm because all theirn burn will be stranded in their hand, and will easily aimed at the painter when you go to combo.

[cab0747]

From my experience, opposing Red decks are always unpleasant. You can SB accordingly if you know you're going to face it quite a bit. Leylines almost shut the deck down, and if you're running white I'd drop the stone and go RipHelm because all theirn burn will be stranded in their hand, and will easily aimed at the painter when you go to combo.

Hmm, good point with the RiP Helm route. I may give that a shot and go heavier on the white.

[pinkfrosting]

Burn is hard but not as bad as some people make it out to be. If you can land the grindstone earlier and then get either painter-painter or painter-red blast in hand, especially if you have 5+ mana available, it's pretty easy to play painter then grind in response to the bolt, or play painter REB grind.

[drude1]

Well, it seems burn has blown up since this past weekend's SCG Open. In the last 2 dailies I have played burn 5/8 matches and 3/4 in the most recent event. It seems that Imperial Painter may be in a tough spot right now (on MODO at least).

Has anyone else experienced this or am I getting very unlucky? According to MTGO Goldfish, Burn is now the 3rd most popular deck (but is not up-to-date and I would assume that the number of decks recorded will go up).

I am thinking of switching to Belcher for a bit and waiting for this recent spike in Burn to die down. Has anyone really tailored their sideboard to combat burn? I would imagine with Shortcake it would be possible (4 Leyline 4 Warmth). However, I would NEVER go into a GP or Open with that kind of SB. It seems like it isn't even worth it if I am trying to improve my play with the deck.

Anyway, I just wanted to get some thoughts on this situation.
Thanks!

I actually love leylines in the board. Gives you outs against burn, belcher, ANT and heavy discard. Also played around with absolute law in the board (see previous posts). If you are on mono-red you gotta hope to drop an early trinisphere or try some welder + wurmcoil engine shenanigans or maybe witchbane orb.


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[Thor Hammer]

Worked Counterbalance into this deck, here's the list I put together...

4 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
4 Trinketmage

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Red Elemental Blast

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
6 Island
2 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

I think Counterbalance offers this deck another strong combo piece that buys one more time to mill your opponent. Also Brainstorm is IMO the best instant spell in Legacy; so why not use it in any deck if possible? After adding these blue spells it makes perfect sense to run FoW. Trinketmage's ability to search up Grindstone serves the same purpose as Imperial Recruiter does with regard to Painter's Servant. Putting Counterspell in is a natural fit, as it is another blue card to pitch of FoW and another 2 CMC for Counterbalance, plus it's an underrated hard counter that works late in the game unlike Spell Pierce or Daze. This way, even if you can't mill your opponent, you can shut your opponent down with counters which should help all the dorks to get their damage through.

Anyone see any reason why this IPainter build shouldn't work?

[Elfkid]

Hi there, Im not a player of this deck, but i´m here to ask a few questions about it:

1st of all: If I choose this deck obviously I will play it with the Imperial Reruiters (I dont know what there´re people that they dont like it, I know is expensive, but its necesary)

Now my questions ^^

I know the deck wins a lot of times with the lock of the blood moon or magus of the moon, but for example vs elves, merfolks and other decks, we need the ensnaring bridge to win, or be faster than they (in the merfolks I know we have 8 reb, pyro in maindeck, but im speaking about the lock, and they run TNN and vials :P )

Is better the RW version with Enligthened Tutor? or is the MonoR better O rprobably it depends in the metagame?

And a personal questions(Its not important, and U can not answer it^^):

If U were thinkg about the elves deck and the painters deck? what deck you will build? (Obv a lot of people will choose painters cause is the Painters thread xDD)

Regards and thanks for all!!

[Jungian Thing]

Worked Counterbalance into this deck, here's the list I put together...

4 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
4 Trinketmage

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Red Elemental Blast

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
6 Island
2 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

I think Counterbalance offers this deck another strong combo piece that buys one more time to mill your opponent. Also Brainstorm is IMO the best instant spell in Legacy; so why not use it in any deck if possible? After adding these blue spells it makes perfect sense to run FoW. Trinketmage's ability to search up Grindstone serves the same purpose as Imperial Recruiter does with regard to Painter's Servant. Putting Counterspell in is a natural fit, as it is another blue card to pitch of FoW and another 2 CMC for Counterbalance, plus it's an underrated hard counter that works late in the game unlike Spell Pierce or Daze. This way, even if you can't mill your opponent, you can shut your opponent down with counters which should help all the dorks to get their damage through.

Anyone see any reason why this IPainter build shouldn't work?

Without all the mana acceleration and the lack of long term control - Moon/Bridge. I would think this would be both slow and patchy. It looks like a glass canon but give it a try!

[Jungian Thing]

Hi there, Im not a player of this deck, but i´m here to ask a few questions about it:


If U were thinkg about the elves deck and the painters deck? what deck you will build? (Obv a lot of people will choose painters cause is the Painters thread xDD)

Regards and thanks for all!!

Two completely different decks. Elves is a durdle engine that is as much fun playing by yourself as with someone sitting on the other side of the table starring into space. Painter has interaction and a number of lines of play that only become available when there is an opponent.

You can either become the cool painter guy at your LGS playing something a little different but strong, or you can be the subject of scorn and pity who no longer has any friends and play elves. Up to you.

[Dice_Box]

A turn one Moon against Elves is a lock out almost all the time. The deck runs 20 lands, two of them are basic. I do not know who told you that you NEED bridge to win that game, I suggest slamming Moon ASAP and then bridge second.

Edit: I missed this the first time i looked over the thread


If U were thinkg about the elves deck and the painters deck? what deck you will build? (Obv a lot of people will choose painters cause is the Painters thread xDD)

I own both, I play both, I would build them both again. Elves I feel is the more powerful of the two decks and the more challenging to play, but it is also the one I play less. There is a feeling I get playing Painter I do not get playing anything else. Maybe its the "Oops you lose" cards or watching people fight though my hate, maybe it is the redundancy or the fun that comes from Welder and Jaya I am not sure. But I like Painter. There is a thrill that comes from it. Also there is a great challenge in those games where you slam a Moon turn one only to see a Lackey. Then your heart starts racing and you sit up straighter knowing that you really have to fight for your win. I love that.

[cab0747]

I know the deck wins a lot of times with the lock of the blood moon or magus of the moon, but for example vs elves, merfolks and other decks, we need the ensnaring bridge to win, or be faster than they (in the merfolks I know we have 8 reb, pyro in maindeck, but im speaking about the lock, and they run TNN and vials :P )

The good thing about RW painter is you have the ability to search for your silver bullets. Enlightened tutor makes it WAY easier to grab your bridge in those MUs. Additionally, welder is great if they decide to blow up your bridge. Yet another thing they have to push through before going for lethal.


Is better the RW version with Enligthened Tutor? or is the MonoR better O rprobably it depends in the metagame?
I am sure Kapn can post some serious numbers about RW being better (and he has played both for some time now) but I think it is meta dependent. If Blood Moon will win you the game on the spot in most of your matches, Mono R might be better. In a meta with a lot of (like you mentioned above) Elves, Merfolk, Dredge, Reanimator, and things were Blood Moon is a hindrance but not a win, the RW version may be better as it has answers to a lot of decks and can tutor for those answers. In an open meta I knew nothing about (like a big GP or SCG Open) I would take RW.


If U were thinkg about the elves deck and the painters deck? what deck you will build? (Obv a lot of people will choose painters cause is the Painters thread xDD)
Elves always seemed like fun to me. I don't think either deck would be a bad choice. Again, I think you might want to see how your meta is when deciding. Additionally, I feel that painter has more interaction than elves, but elves combo is more consistent. This is 100% personal preference. If it helps, I haven;t grown bored with painter in the least. Still very fun, very interactive, and it is enjoyable when you can tell your play with the deck improves. Edit: Also, T1 Moons and then an auto-concession from your opponent are always fun. Painter has a few angles and the lists can be flexible depending on your play-style. These things make Painter a better choice in my eyes.

*Edited for formatting

[Elfkid]

Thanks for all the answers!

My current metagame is arround 20-30 players and the decks are probably lot of delver decks (That there are good matchups for the elves and the painter.deck) but obviously I will travel to a biggest tournaments, gp´s, opens so im looking for a flexible deck, I think elves is most powerfull but its more hateable than painters, haters gonna hate, Im readding a lot of post here and in the elves thread to think more relax what is the deck im looking for.

And, to take moar information, which are the most difficult pairings for painters? I think decks like monoR, dredge and probably storm are bad matchups but I´m not clear about it :P

Thanks forr all!

Regards!:laugh:

[Ish]

Thanks for all the answers!

My current metagame is arround 20-30 players and the decks are probably lot of delver decks (That there are good matchups for the elves and the painter.deck) but obviously I will travel to a biggest tournaments, gp´s, opens so im looking for a flexible deck, I think elves is most powerfull but its more hateable than painters, haters gonna hate, Im readding a lot of post here and in the elves thread to think more relax what is the deck im looking for.

And, to take moar information, which are the most difficult pairings for painters? I think decks like monoR, dredge and probably storm are bad matchups but I´m not clear about it :P

Thanks forr all!

Regards!:laugh:

As for deck choice... They are so totally different. I prefer painter... But that's why I'm in this thread and not elves.

But they both rely on creatures for the main combo. So the disruption against them is similiar... Though hand disruption is better against painter than elves and sweepers are great vs elves.

The bad matchups are pretty similiar. Burn, storm etc. But painter's bloodmoon can give some free wins against some tempo decks.

Overall in the current meta I feel like elves is a hair stronger vs many of the temp strategies. HOWEVER... If you can ride blood moon (gotta draw it, gotta stick it, and before they can tap in response for abrupt decay)... The. Painter beats 3 color tempo.

In my experience though... Painter struggles against tempo. They have counters, hand disruption (BUG), and plenty of removal. All good against painter. Again blood moon is our out there.


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[Dice_Box]

You would be surprised just how useful Moon is against Storm and Dredge. Storm often needs cantrips to shape its hand, you take away blue save for petals and you really hurt them. ANT being the big one, TES will just Wish into something useful and then break you but they still need to find that card.

I think the hardest matches tend to be those that are lest effected by moon and can disrupt you. Miracles run a good amount of basics and if they get countertop online, you just can't win. Not unless you already had stone down. Goblins is another. Moon cuts off there control, but they are not slow and if you hand them a fist full of mountains in the place of their greedy 8 colorless lands, they get faster.

Burn is Burn. Ouch. DnT is evil. Not unbeatable but they can kill your searching (Turing off Imps) make everything cost more and lock down your mana. Moon is useful, more so than you would think, but Vial just makes you want to cry sometimes. Fish is another. Many basics, Vial and counters. Not fun. The funny thing is though, Fish is not as fast a deck as it first appears. With a good hand you can disrupt them.

Honestly though, the deck I hate the most is Reanimator. Disruption, fast and has a toolbox. Worst part is Iona. We need to paint the world a colour to win, she can punish us hard for it. Also, most of their business spells are black... not fun.

[GoblinZ]

Thanks for all the answers!

My current metagame is arround 20-30 players and the decks are probably lot of delver decks (That there are good matchups for the elves and the painter.deck) but obviously I will travel to a biggest tournaments, gp´s, opens so im looking for a flexible deck, I think elves is most powerfull but its more hateable than painters, haters gonna hate, Im readding a lot of post here and in the elves thread to think more relax what is the deck im looking for.

And, to take moar information, which are the most difficult pairings for painters? I think decks like monoR, dredge and probably storm are bad matchups but I´m not clear about it :P

Thanks forr all!

Regards!:laugh:


Nearly all the decks based mainly on red(belcher, goblin and burn) are bad match-up of painter along with eldrazi decks, fast combo and jund.

Dredge used to be really good match-up before faithless looting was printed, countering a careful study or breakthrough and playing the moon just win your the game. Unless they get the nuts draw, this is still a okay match-up for painter.

[drude1]

Worked Counterbalance into this deck, here's the list I put together...

4 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
4 Trinketmage

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Red Elemental Blast

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
6 Island
2 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

I think Counterbalance offers this deck another strong combo piece that buys one more time to mill your opponent. Also Brainstorm is IMO the best instant spell in Legacy; so why not use it in any deck if possible? After adding these blue spells it makes perfect sense to run FoW. Trinketmage's ability to search up Grindstone serves the same purpose as Imperial Recruiter does with regard to Painter's Servant. Putting Counterspell in is a natural fit, as it is another blue card to pitch of FoW and another 2 CMC for Counterbalance, plus it's an underrated hard counter that works late in the game unlike Spell Pierce or Daze. This way, even if you can't mill your opponent, you can shut your opponent down with counters which should help all the dorks to get their damage through.

Anyone see any reason why this IPainter build shouldn't work?

Well, painters make no sense in this deck. They only thing you are searching for is painter or maybe trinket Mage. Why wouldn't you just play intuitions? They are blue so they pitch to FoW and they are instant speed. You should look at the u/r list that T8d SCG a few weeks ago. That list makes way more sense for what you are trying to do.


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[Thor Hammer]

Without all the mana acceleration and the lack of long term control - Moon/Bridge. I would think this would be both slow and patchy. It looks like a glass canon but give it a try!

Well I have 4 x Ancient Tomb in it to help with the mana acceleration, but adding 4 x Lotus Petal would definitely speed it up. Not sure what I would take out though. I could take out one 1 x Sensei's Divining, 1 x Counterbalance, 1 x Painter's Servant, and 1 x Grindstone.

As for the Moon/Bridge lockout, I'm basically switching it out for the Counterbalance lockout strategy. I'm leaning toward the latter because it allows me to take this deck in a more counter heavy direction, which I think is more interactive and fun, as well as more effective early in the game at protecting the PainterStone win condition. At the same time it's effective in the long term as well because I can set up Counterbalance with Sensei's Divining Top to counter almost anything my opponent plays without having to pay more than the :1: to activate grindstone, which should buy me plenty of time to get PainterStone to combo off if my opponent disrupted my first attempt to do so earlier in the game.

Thoughts?

[Thor Hammer]

Well, painters make no sense in this deck. They only thing you are searching for is painter or maybe trinket Mage. Why wouldn't you just play intuitions? They are blue so they pitch to FoW and they are instant speed. You should look at the u/r list that T8d SCG a few weeks ago. That list makes way more sense for what you are trying to do.

I can't play Intution if I don't run Goblind Welder, otherwise I'm tossing copies of my win condition in the graveyard with no way of bringing them back. Also, the instant speed of intution doesn't even matter. In any case, Trinket Mage is nice because it searches up Grindstone and it's a useful 2/1 body unlike Intuition which does nothing for me sitting in the graveyard, and I already have enough blue spells to pitch for FoW.

I may try to work some Lotus Petals into the deck though for a bit of acceleration.

[drude1]

I can't play Intution if I don't run Goblind Welder, otherwise I'm tossing copies of my win condition in the graveyard with no way of bringing them back. Also, the instant speed of intution doesn't even matter. In any case, Trinket Mage is nice because it searches up Grindstone and it's a useful 2/1 body unlike Intuition which does nothing for me sitting in the graveyard, and I already have enough blue spells to pitch for FoW.

I may try to work some Lotus Petals into the deck though for a bit of acceleration.

The point is that counterbalance decks tend to want to not tap out. So your plan then is drop a counterbalance and wait until turn 5 to start dropping recruiters while leaving at least some mana open to spin for top? I think you are going to get run over by fast tempo strategies. The only reason cb works in miracles is because they have at least 8 pieces of removal, many of which are sweepers. But, run it out there and let us know how it goes. I will be the last person to try to suppress new ideas.


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[sroncor1]

Don't feed the trolls guys.

I have been working on some ideas and streaming with Jack a bit. I still think the shortcake version is the optimal build to take to a major event. Jack and I have been going back and forth with the sideboard as of late. What I can say about that is that, no mater if you are a splash or monored, it should start with 4 Firebolt and 3-4 graveyard hate. After that it's really hard to say where you should go, but I know Jack did a great job listing cards on the front but some of it is just preference. Like using heretic vs vandal. You should probably use one of them, but which one is a lot less clear as each has pros and cons.

The deck in general is still really strong I think. The really weird part is the list is essentially unchanged from five years ago. I'm not sure what that says either that wizards keeps printing shit or that for all the changes the meta has gone through the core strategies and foils have remained the same.

If you are looking at doing a total retooling of the deck and adding more than a light splash might I suggest black. I've been brewing up a black splash with entomb since Grenzo came out. It plays nicely and actually makes a lot of bad match ups much better, although it comes with trade offs. I'll post the list the first chance I get this weekend.

I'll leave you all with this, be aware of small sample sizes. Running hot in one event especially outside of the easy coast or northwest is very suspect. The invitational is even more dangerous as the preponderance of three color blue was incredibly high as those kind of decks pay dividends in the long hail and that is what a grinder wants as it increases their odds of winning over extended periods of time. And in case I wasn't clear counterbalance is a terrible idea and those posts were so full of just bad magic strategy I don't know what to say.

And remember Todd Anderson doesn't wash his hands when he shits. And Jack smashed him on MTGO the other night

Seth

[cab0747]

Don't feed the trolls guys.

I have been working on some ideas and streaming with Jack a bit. I still think the shortcake version is the optimal build to take to a major event. Jack and I have been going back and forth with the sideboard as of late. What I can say about that is that, no mater if you are a splash or monored, it should start with 4 Firebolt and 3-4 graveyard hate. After that it's really hard to say where you should go, but I know Jack did a great job listing cards on the front but some of it is just preference. Like using heretic vs vandal. You should probably use one of them, but which one is a lot less clear as each has pros and cons.

The deck in general is still really strong I think. The really weird part is the list is essentially unchanged from five years ago. I'm not sure what that says either that wizards keeps printing shit or that for all the changes the meta has gone through the core strategies and foils have remained the same.

If you are looking at doing a total retooling of the deck and adding more than a light splash might I suggest black. I've been brewing up a black splash with entomb since Grenzo came out. It plays nicely and actually makes a lot of bad match ups much better, although it comes with trade offs. I'll post the list the first chance I get this weekend.

I'll leave you all with this, be aware of small sample sizes. Running hot in one event especially outside of the easy coast or northwest is very suspect. The invitational is even more dangerous as the preponderance of three color blue was incredibly high as those kind of decks pay dividends in the long hail and that is what a grinder wants as it increases their odds of winning over extended periods of time. And in case I wasn't clear counterbalance is a terrible idea and those posts were so full of just bad magic strategy I don't know what to say.

And remember Todd Anderson doesn't wash his hands when he shits. And Jack smashed him on MTGO the other night

Seth

Grenzo looks interesting... A black splash could be pretty neat. I'm looking forward to your list. There was a blue splash with Dack that looked really interesting a few pages back. This isn't the hevay blue version with CB. Dack (and maybe Trinket Mage) were the only reasons for the blue splash. Any chance we could get your thoughts on that?

Thanks for all of the testing and streaming you and Jack do. This has been incredibly helpful learning how to best pilot the deck.

[Kap'n Cook]

Been trying out a few different things in the board, mainly in koth's spot as a tutorable piece. I view everything else as a necessity. Findings:

1) Helm: hard to pull off in my particular version. You need at the very least 3 RIP (cut the two crypts) which detracts from welder maindeck and you lose welder-crypt post board. . Also hard to assemble the alt combo with only two tutors. Solution if you want helm: run the 3/2 tutor-top split, drop a welder, and add an artifact of your choice to the main.

2) batterskull: great vs control decks like miracles and hard for black decks to remove. Also makes any creature a significant beater. Synergy with welder a plus. Wouldn't fault someone for using skull as it helps vs red decks and jund. However, if you want skull, you will most likely want stoneforge, which means you want jitte probably, which means you end up skimping on hate elsewhere.

3) hammer of purphorous: makes welder a beast. Great vs miracles but pretty bad in most matchups as you end up just chumping goyf. Makes bridge pretty bad though and tilts you toward being a bad aggro deck.

4) an oldie from painter's beginning: sword of light and shadow: what I will be doing more testing with as I've liked the first go around. Nullifies most relevant legacy removal spells. Also puts painter, jaya, magus out of bolt range. Not too expensive to cast and allows us to still name blue with painter. Helps the grindy matchups and makes each card a bigger threat against control. This slot could be a jitte too but sword seems more versatile. We do lose bridge points, though.

[teonsw]

2) batterskull: great vs control decks like miracles and hard for black decks to remove. Also makes any creature a significant beater. Synergy with welder a plus. Wouldn't fault someone for using skull as it helps vs red decks and jund. However, if you want skull, you will most likely want stoneforge, which means you want jitte probably, which means you end up skimping on hate elsewhere.


Would you play skull without stoneforge? The reason im asking is that a full stoneforge package in the side board takes up 5ish slots.

[Kap'n Cook]

Would you play skull without stoneforge? The reason im asking is that a full stoneforge package in the side board takes up 5ish slots.

Yea it's not the worst idea. You also have to remember that you don't need 4 stoneforges since tutor finds the equipment too and recruiter finds stoneforge

[Jungian Thing]

STOP! I have only just completed pimping my shortcake list, pics to follow after a few last cards turn up in the mail. But that's not the point, the deck can't just go whimsically changing cards around and Batterskull is particularly difficult to pick up signed, altered or otherwise. How about something by Schuler or Tedin? Those guys have signed and doodled on plenty of cards.

It's just not fair!

PS Jake356(?) I liked your idea about painters so much, I got my painters altered to painters.

[DredgingLoam]

Hey there everyone. I have played this deck before in the past and have finally come back to playing it again. Having played with it awhile ago, I am curious as to a few changes to the lists from before to now:

The use of Koth of the Hammer instead of Chandra, Pyromaster. Are they for different match-ups or is Koth (more specifically, his emblem) more powerful than the card advantage off of Chandra.

Is the reusable artifact destruction of Viashino Heretic worth the extra turn it takes to set up compared to Manic Vandal, or is it just too slow?

Are Spirit of the Labyrinth or Spellskite worth the sideboard slots?

I apologize if any of this has been discussed before, but this thread is rather large.

My current list for reference:

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
3 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Magus of the Moon

4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
4 Pyroblast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Lotus Petal
2 Red Elemental Blast

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mountain
3 City of Traitors
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Great Furnace

Sideboard
4 Firebolt
2 Rest in Peace
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spellskite
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Trinisphere
1 Viashino Heretic

Thanks for any potential help. ^_^

[Dice_Box]

I honestly don't see much of a point for Spirit or Spellskite. Spellskite was once main, but it just lack enough punch to be tutored for. While naturally drawn he could win games, Welder more or less does his job and them some. So in the end he left us.

Something I just remembered. When playing against decks like Jund with Koth, a good plan can be to target their lands, make their mountains creatures. I have had some of them kill my lands when animate them. If they have an untapped Mountain and you don't plan to attack/Tap for mana, target them.

[Ish]

In this current meta... Should we be playing more Magus? I prefer him over bridge in any abrupt decay matchup.


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[teonsw]

Yea it's not the worst idea. You also have to remember that you don't need 4 stoneforges since tutor finds the equipment too and recruiter finds stoneforge

For the 5 I was counting 3 sfm a jitte and batterskull. But we do that the enlightened tutor for skull so that helps. I think I'll toss a skull in my board this week and test it out.

[chrstphrbrnnn]

Is there a link to any of the streams? I'd love to watch some games.

Also guys, the hardest question I've had to ask myself when building my deck is: what mountains? Any suggestions (not gonna do gurus or anything crazy like that). I liked Jack's from the top 8 game.

[mcbain]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/30/nusapu8y.jpg

[GoblinZ]

Is there a link to any of the streams? I'd love to watch some games.

Also guys, the hardest question I've had to ask myself when building my deck is: what mountains? Any suggestions (not gonna do gurus or anything crazy like that). I liked Jack's from the top 8 game.

Chris Fox playing painter is on the camera now against Gerry Thompson （Gerry is back？）

I don't know why Fox did not play painter in game one, he just died when Gerry resolved sneakattack

In game two, with a welder on play, he should play his bridge...Gerry just played sneakattack into emrakul...what a stupid game...

[rancOr_]

Is there a link to any of the streams? I'd love to watch some games.

Also guys, the hardest question I've had to ask myself when building my deck is: what mountains? Any suggestions (not gonna do gurus or anything crazy like that). I liked Jack's from the top 8 game.

Yeh if youre not going Guru/AN I really like the Chinese P3K Mountains ! if you dont like foreign id go plain Beta/(Alpha).

[mcbain]

Generally sneak attack requires the painter pilot to have a very good understanding of the matchup.

Often it is in your favour but you really have to know what your doing. When to play bridge, revoker, Pyroblast, and welder are key to winning the matchup.

[GundamGuy]

Chris Fox playing painter is on the camera now against Gerry Thompson （Gerry is back？）

I don't know why Fox did not play painter in game one, he just died when Gerry resolved sneakattack

In game two, with a welder on play, he should play his bridge...Gerry just played sneakattack into emrakul...what a stupid game...


Lets go back some, Game 1, Gerry counters his Bridge with Spell Pierce, when Chris is on 4 mana with one open and 2 Blasts in hand. He also could have chosen to draw an Lotus Petal (Saw it with Top) to have an extra open mana to be able to cast both... I just don't get the choice there. Maybe he didn't know his opponent was on Sneak and Show on turn 3 but if your opponent is willing to fight over it, I'd be willing to consider fighting back.

Lot's of odd play choices.

[spector14]

http://mythicspoiler.com/m15/cards/actonimpulse.html

What do you Think about This?


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[Dice_Box]

Overcosted, I would rather just play Chandra or Faithless.

[cab0747]

http://mythicspoiler.com/m15/cards/actonimpulse.html

What do you Think about This?


Inviato da mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

3 mana is a lot. It might be good to find the stone, but I think I would still take looting over this.

I wouldn't mind testing this, however.

[mcbain]

I have gone back to the mono red no bridge main roots from last year over the last few weeks with good success.

One card I have really really been impressed with is spellskite. This guy is a house. People can cite "just get another welder" or something of that nature but from my experience over the last few weeks this is not the case. Not even close. Additionally when paired with the afar mentioned welder things really get out of control.

Last week I beat burn (2-0) patriot (2-1) and miracles (2-1). Spellskite was a factor in every win I got.

Additionally I haven't been missing the bridges main as much as I thought I would. I have been running chandra as well, with good results. She rarely sits in your hand or is a dead draw. Often she requires an immediate answer or she will run off with the card advantage.

Finally I can't say enough about good old mountain. With midrange burn and delver strategies all running wasteland and pressure an extremely resilient mana base is just what the doctor ordered. Obviously this is not to take away from the shortcake list which I have played over the last year but some games "just feel right" in the mono red shell.

[Ish]

I
Finally I can't say enough about good old mountain. With midrange burn and delver strategies all running wasteland and pressure an extremely resilient mana base is just what the doctor ordered. Obviously this is not to take away from the shortcake list which I have played over the last year but some games "just feel right" in the mono red shell.

In contrast I have been running Rw Painter and loving it. I took a page from Seth's playbook and ran the SFM package in the side. Absolutely convinced this is one of the best sideboard options for the deck.

Tried 2 magus, only 1 e bridge, and 0 koth main. I missed Koth and will probably be putting him back in.

Looking forward to continuing tweaking the few flex slots for SCG Balt coming up.

[Dice_Box]

I love this deck. We all have different builds. I run 2 Bridge and 2 Magus. I think that's what makes this deck different from Jund and what not. 3 Jund players will normally have 59 out of 60 cards be the same, here you truly have options.

[chrstphrbrnnn]

In contrast I have been running Rw Painter and loving it. I took a page from Seth's playbook and ran the SFM package in the side. Absolutely convinced this is one of the best sideboard options for the deck.

Tried 2 magus, only 1 e bridge, and 0 koth main. I missed Koth and will probably be putting him back in.

Looking forward to continuing tweaking the few flex slots for SCG Balt coming up.

What are the match ups that benefitted the most from it you think? I have also been debating running this.

[sroncor1]

So when Grenzo was spoiled Jack and I bounced ideas about a black splash. He seemed like such a great target for the long game being card advantage, and a huge beater as the game wore on. I think he is def legacy playable although, after doing deck construction with Jack my black splashes basically stopped using him as I found that I could do more powerful things in his place.

As an aside I think most people have come around to the fact that the optimal build of painter is a splash of some sort. While Blood Moon is incredibly strong there are some time that it just isn’t good. That and there are certain decks that our combo strategy doesn’t play well with. Having splashes gives red the things it doesn’t have, namely consistency(in the form of card selection) and better answers(red is notoriously bad at graveyard hate, combo hate, and the ability to grind out a game). The splashes allow the Painter list to diversify its plans and adapt to different strategies. End of aside.

So Jack and I were talking about black and obviously I thought about Entomb. In a vacuum, it is in the five strongest cards in legacy. A one mana tutor for any card is incredibly strong. But what the card really gives you is access to thoughtseize, duress, and cabal therapy. Often times when you are comboing, you only care about one or two cards your opponent has. Often times you ignore most of what your opponent does. Like many combo decks, we just want to live long enough to hit the combo. In that sense the goyf or delver our opponent plays is only important in that it shortens the time in which we have. Once the resource is played if it cant attack us, or we block it, or we combo the next turn, it does not affect us. With this mentality in mind you can leverage targeted hand disruption for your advantage. And with entomb, Goblin Welder is stronger along with a card like reanimate. Painter is incredibly cheap to reanimate, and the ability to continually bring him and welder back is really strong. And if we are playing entomb, reanimate, you might as well have some other targets. I have been testing one Griselbrand, one iona, and one wurm coil. Those three really help strengthen up some of your worst match ups. Those cards with thoughtseize and cabal therapy(which turns Imperial recruiter into a fucking amazing card) really morph the deck into something different. Now this changes the way the deck plays and blast effects and moons sort of go out the window. You can still one the one magus of the moon in the main as he is easily tutorable. I am not saying this is the definitive form of the deck, but an interesting idea that needs more exploration. I was looking over my list and realized that the deck is essentially the same as it was 5 years ago. I am not sure what that says but a fresh perspective on the deck is something worth exploring. I do feel that this does offer more options and versatility at a loss of the blood moon plan. So as such it will not supplant the Imperial Painter shortcake list, but be an alternative. I will include a rough list below, but I encourage the board members to test it out.

4 entomb

4 reanimate

4 goblin welder

4imperial recruiter

3 painters servant

4 grindstone

4 cabal therapy

3 thoughtseize

1 griselbrand

1 iona

1 wurm coil

1 jaya ballard

23 lands( with some distribution of artifact lands, sol lands, and duals)

2 SDT

1 exhume

Sideboard

Flavor to suit



This is just a start. I have done some testing over the past month and I do like the way it feels although it plays vastly different. I am not posting my most up to date list as I want to see what you guys come up with and it is far from over. I am on the fence if I will try this at Bmore in two weeks or run my standard shortcake list.

Seth

[spector14]

So when Grenzo was spoiled Jack and I bounced ideas about a black splash. He seemed like such a great target for the long game being card advantage, and a huge beater as the game wore on. I think he is def legacy playable although, after doing deck construction with Jack my black splashes basically stopped using him as I found that I could do more powerful things in his place.

As an aside I think most people have come around to the fact that the optimal build of painter is a splash of some sort. While Blood Moon is incredibly strong there are some time that it just isn’t good. That and there are certain decks that our combo strategy doesn’t play well with. Having splashes gives red the things it doesn’t have, namely consistency(in the form of card selection) and better answers(red is notoriously bad at graveyard hate, combo hate, and the ability to grind out a game). The splashes allow the Painter list to diversify its plans and adapt to different strategies. End of aside.

So Jack and I were talking about black and obviously I thought about Entomb. In a vacuum, it is in the five strongest cards in legacy. A one mana tutor for any card is incredibly strong. But what the card really gives you is access to thoughtseize, duress, and cabal therapy. Often times when you are comboing, you only care about one or two cards your opponent has. Often times you ignore most of what your opponent does. Like many combo decks, we just want to live long enough to hit the combo. In that sense the goyf or delver our opponent plays is only important in that it shortens the time in which we have. Once the resource is played if it cant attack us, or we block it, or we combo the next turn, it does not affect us. With this mentality in mind you can leverage targeted hand disruption for your advantage. And with entomb, Goblin Welder is stronger along with a card like reanimate. Painter is incredibly cheap to reanimate, and the ability to continually bring him and welder back is really strong. And if we are playing entomb, reanimate, you might as well have some other targets. I have been testing one Griselbrand, one iona, and one wurm coil. Those three really help strengthen up some of your worst match ups. Those cards with thoughtseize and cabal therapy(which turns Imperial recruiter into a fucking amazing card) really morph the deck into something different. Now this changes the way the deck plays and blast effects and moons sort of go out the window. You can still one the one magus of the moon in the main as he is easily tutorable. I am not saying this is the definitive form of the deck, but an interesting idea that needs more exploration. I was looking over my list and realized that the deck is essentially the same as it was 5 years ago. I am not sure what that says but a fresh perspective on the deck is something worth exploring. I do feel that this does offer more options and versatility at a loss of the blood moon plan. So as such it will not supplant the Imperial Painter shortcake list, but be an alternative. I will include a rough list below, but I encourage the board members to test it out.

4 entomb

4 reanimate

4 goblin welder

4imperial recruiter

3 painters servant

4 grindstone

4 cabal therapy

3 thoughtseize

1 griselbrand

1 iona

1 wurm coil

1 jaya ballard

23 lands( with some distribution of artifact lands, sol lands, and duals)

2 SDT

1 exhume

Sideboard

Flavor to suit



This is just a start. I have done some testing over the past month and I do like the way it feels although it plays vastly different. I am not posting my most up to date list as I want to see what you guys come up with and it is far from over. I am on the fence if I will try this at Bmore in two weeks or run my standard shortcake list.

Seth

Hi seth!

I like a Lot your idea! It's original!! But when i see This list why don't see faithless looting??
If you want abuse to welder's ability or reanimate big monsters you MUST use That!!

[Ish]

Seth,

This is very similar to what Chris was playing a few months back. I also played around with the entomb strategy after seeing him try it. I was not convinced... But didn't fully put it through its paces.

As for targets... I think it's better to use artifact fatties as they play well with welder. WCE obviously, but also Inkwell and Sphinx of the steel wind

As for what matches SFM is good for. Several... I have been bringing it in a lot against any deck that wants to beat me down... And miracles (batter skull is so good there ). But also in mat hips where blood moon is dead, or if you can expect a ton of hate coming in. Just having a back up plan that can play both offense and defense is great.


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[sroncor1]

Ish,

He splashed it but without full commitment. I think artifact creatures are good, one reason why wurm coil was picked. But grizzlebrand and Iona are just straight up better reanimate on targets. I do think there is a place for inkwell. And the 2 SDT could easily be faithless looting. As I said it was a framework, and it wasn't even my most updated list. Just wanted to get out there an idea for people to tinker with as I had been seeing a bunch of hybrid lists that looked terrible with strategies that were not synergistic with painter. I feel this deck is. But yeah Chris did run it after Jack and I had been talking about the splash for a bit. Grenzo just committed me to actually testing. Them I ended up cutting him.

About SFM, you want it against stoneblade, BUG, burn, and patriot lists. It hasn't been great against UR delver. I feel that it is ok against RUG delver but that tends to be the easiest of the delver deck to beat in general. I am on the fence when it comes to Death and Taxes. And this isn't Bc it isn't good, but more so I have never found the match up that hard and finding things to pull out is really hard. So it usully never came in as just getting the 4 Firebolts in was difficult for me. Hope that helps on some thoughts of the SFM package.

Seth

[chrstphrbrnnn]

Thanks for the tips guys, gonna be running a SFM package for sure. So I see people talking about the good painter players streaming or what not, any chance I could get a link to that?

[jake556]

Thanks for the tips guys, gonna be running a SFM package for sure. So I see people talking about the good painter players streaming or what not, any chance I could get a link to that?


http://www.twitch.tv/kapncook/profile#/kapncook/profile/pastBroadcasts


I have enjoyed watching Jack stream, it can definetely help you become a better Painter.

[oliverpool]

I would like to understand one part. Tutor seems to be a key part of the deck. Hoewver once you play blood moon, there is no way for you to use tutor anymore as there is no plains in your deck? So basically we just accept that tutor is now a dead card until blood moon is disenchanted?

[Jungian Thing]

I would like to understand one part. Tutor seems to be a key part of the deck. Hoewver once you play blood moon, there is no way for you to use tutor anymore as there is no plains in your deck? So basically we just accept that tutor is now a dead card until blood moon is disenchanted?

Lotus Petal. But yes, you must consider this before casting the moon and also keep this in mind when you SDT. The card can clog up your hand and lift bridge but you can pitch it to jaya if needs be.

[Dice_Box]

The white cards can kill you in that situation, but will win you far more games than they will ever lose you.

[oliverpool]

The white cards can kill you in that situation, but will win you far more games than they will ever lose you.

I have been mainly playing with the R/U painter and the Monored so far. for R/W, it seems that you usually want to play Blood Moon asap like in turn 1 if possible. So in the games I played, it just seem a dilemma to wait to play tutor first if you have it in hand or see it with top or to play blood moon to shut down your opp asap. Guess I still have to play it more to see. Of course having it to fetch cards like bridge and all is a real plus point.

I have not had the chance yet (playing only on MTGO) but is it possible to win if you have grindstone in play with painter in the graveyard and vice versa with welder in play as well? As in to win in the same time?

[Moomba]

I have been mainly playing with the R/U painter and the Monored so far. for R/W, it seems that you usually want to play Blood Moon asap like in turn 1 if possible. So in the games I played, it just seem a dilemma to wait to play tutor first if you have it in hand or see it with top or to play blood moon to shut down your opp asap. Guess I still have to play it more to see. Of course having it to fetch cards like bridge and all is a real plus point.

I have not had the chance yet (playing only on MTGO) but is it possible to win if you have grindstone in play with painter in the graveyard and vice versa with welder in play as well? As in to win in the same time?

If grindstone and welder are in play and painter is in the graveyard, you activate grindstone, with it's ability on the stack you weld out grindstone for painter, name a colour, then grindstones ability resolves removing your opponents deck. If painter is in play and grindstone is in the yard, you need to either wait a turn, or have 2 welders.

[Dice_Box]

If you have a moon in hand and a Tutor, I would debate that your best turn one play will be to slam moon a good amount of the time. That's twice as true for decks that Bridge will kill. If bridge us so effective, your first turn play likely should be to get a bridge.

Also, last Tuesday I had a situation pop up where I went turn one tutor into turn two moon. That is exactly the line of play I am unwilling to give up on.

[GradStudent]

Sounds like Ian Carle is piloting Jack Kitchen's R/W painter list. Pretty sweet to see it in action

(sweet G1 turn 1 Magus with blast backup)

[cab0747]

Sounds like Ian Carle is piloting Jack Kitchen's R/W painter list. Pretty sweet to see it in action

(sweet G1 turn 1 Magus with blast backup)

Looks like he was 7-1 going into the last round of the swiss. Looks like one of them didn't want to draw into the top 8. They played it out and Ian lost in 3 games. Super depressing.

[Kap'n Cook]

Hopefully he is a member here (or someone on here should know him too since he ran my pyrite) so he can talk about why he wasn't playing cards in his hand that game 3 to get under a bridge. Had 4 basics and a plateau so even with white everything was castable. Plus there was a firebolt still in the yard from way earlier.


edit: duh forgot potential rebs in there

[chrstphrbrnnn]

Looks like he was 7-1 going into the last round of the swiss. Looks like one of them didn't want to draw into the top 8. They played it out and Ian lost in 3 games. Super depressing.

I think they said because of when/who Dan Jordan lost to, he couldn't draw.

So I find myself in a positon where I have recruiter/tutor in hand or even just multiple recruiters and I really want a way to find grindstone from here. I even went so far to think about playing Scuttlemutt (3 mana 2/2 artifact creature that taps for any color and can change the color of creatures). Like, that's just awful but it does have some synergy with blasts lol. If it was permanents I might be okay with it. Either way, my main qualm with the deck is having lots of painters and recruiters and just wishing my recruiters could progress my gameplay more. If I search for magus with the recruiter, I might then just shut off too many avenues to cast my tutor. Obviously if welder or revoker is really good, I'd grab them or I mean Jaya is still a huge threat. I like the tutors but I really wanna be able to cast them more often. How bad is running a single plains? Especially if I run SFM package or Helm combo?

[Dice_Box]

There is a toolbox for Recruiter that has been tried. Rakka Mar, Revoker, Spell skite, different other hate bears. Mar is still a old favourite of mine, but with Bridge being main, she is just no good anymore. (Well she was really only kind of half good to start with.

What it comes down to is we are a combo deck. So play combo. Other cards that take up spaces need to be really dam useful or really dam good. If they are not, they are not fit for play. So while there is not a lot you can do with Recruiter once you have a painter, moon and Welder down, I would think in that situation it might be time to just win with what you have out.

[pistols4pandas]

Hey, that was me on the feature match, the last game i had 2 REB's stuck in my hand i couldnt get ride of. i shouldve sequenced my blasts better, im pretty sure i could have used a REB instead of a pyroblast at some point. my opponent told me after he had 2 bolt in hand anyway, so it wouldnt have been super relevant. my other loss of the day was also to UWR delver, so its possible i need to sideboard different or just play aganst it more.

had a lot of good matchups through the day, played deathblade twice, enchantress, rug, bug, UWR twice, dredge and sneak and show. the list feels great, i just need more experience with it i think. i didnt actually resolve a blood moon until round 6 or so, somehow i still got there.

[Kap'n Cook]

Hey, that was me on the feature match, the last game i had 2 REB's stuck in my hand i couldnt get ride of. i shouldve sequenced my blasts better, im pretty sure i could have used a REB instead of a pyroblast at some point. my opponent told me after he had 2 bolt in hand anyway, so it wouldnt have been super relevant. my other loss of the day was also to UWR delver, so its possible i need to sideboard different or just play aganst it more.

had a lot of good matchups through the day, played deathblade twice, enchantress, rug, bug, UWR twice, dredge and sneak and show. the list feels great, i just need more experience with it i think. i didnt actually resolve a blood moon until round 6 or so, somehow i still got there.


Still a nice run. Game 2 your opponent was just lucky to draw fow+blue before you got rec. Also keeping so many counters on jitte was a terrible play on his part.

One comment I do have (assuming this was actually the case and the commentators were right), UWR doesn't play stifle, so you can just store up your fetches and save life points until you actually need them, and to make sensei top better. Still unfortunate in the end that he got there, but uwr is still slow as shit.

Still congrats tho.

[chrstphrbrnnn]

There is a toolbox for Recruiter that has been tried. Rakka Mar, Revoker, Spell skite, different other hate bears. Mar is still a old favourite of mine, but with Bridge being main, she is just no good anymore. (Well she was really only kind of half good to start with.

What it comes down to is we are a combo deck. So play combo. Other cards that take up spaces need to be really dam useful or really dam good. If they are not, they are not fit for play. So while there is not a lot you can do with Recruiter once you have a painter, moon and Welder down, I would think in that situation it might be time to just win with what you have out.

Yeah I mostly just want to find a way to get grindstone/use tutor to get grindstone with recruiter.

I was rooting against Dan Jordan all day, especially since he beat painter. I really hate when the announcers bandwaggon the crap out of someone, especially when they're playing a boring deck.

[oliverpool]

If you have a moon in hand and a Tutor, I would debate that your best turn one play will be to slam moon a good amount of the time. That's twice as true for decks that Bridge will kill. If bridge us so effective, your first turn play likely should be to get a bridge.

Also, last Tuesday I had a situation pop up where I went turn one tutor into turn two moon. That is exactly the line of play I am unwilling to give up on.

Understand that entirely. Just wondering if there was a way to include a plains so that one your fetch could get it early before blood moon.

I just finished a game against a enchantment deck which uses solitary confinement to help with damage prevention. They also use a bunch of cards that allows them to draw cards everytime they cast another enchantment. I was a little slow and he got the Confinement down before i could combo. And he actually then cast a RIP followed by a helm and milled me! Haa that was classic :-p

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

I've some doubts about UWR Delver sideboarding. You remove Sensei's Diving Top against them?

[Kap'n Cook]

Sideboarding in general is never simple adding and deleting. It'll depend on play/draw and what role you want for a game and what you saw game 1/2. For uwr for example, if you see lavamancer you'll probably want revokers and less welders.

Against uwr you'll be deciding between the third bridge, 7th blast, vandal, creature removal. So you need to compare that to what 7 cards in the main you won't need as much. Sometimes this means all tops come out, sometimes it means all stay in and tutors come out, sometimes you cut welder/revoker etc.

I know saying this isn't super helpful, but painter isn't like storm with its board plans. Basically practicing a lot will help you evaluate any given card compared to one you might want to bring in.

[drude1]

Understand that entirely. Just wondering if there was a way to include a plains so that one your fetch could get it early before blood moon.


Easily. I play 1 plains and 4 petals main


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[GradStudent]

Sideboarding in general is never simple adding and deleting. It'll depend on play/draw and what role you want for a game and what you saw game 1/2. For uwr for example, if you see lavamancer you'll probably want revokers and less welders.

Against uwr you'll be deciding between the third bridge, 7th blast, vandal, creature removal. So you need to compare that to what 7 cards in the main you won't need as much. Sometimes this means all tops come out, sometimes it means all stay in and tutors come out, sometimes you cut welder/revoker etc.

I know saying this isn't super helpful, but painter isn't like storm with its board plans. Basically practicing a lot will help you evaluate any given card compared to one you might want to bring in.


Any chance you'll be streaming again soon? (I know real life has you by the balls lately)

~wish seth would stream that reanipainter list

[oliverpool]

Easily. I play 1 plains and 4 petals main


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I will give this a test. I have been playing mainly this build (strawberry?) for almost 2 months. Squeezing in at least a game or two every day. So probably played around 200 plus games now. Some days, I have a pretty good record and feel like I finally got this deck. on other days, it like 5 straight losses and I feel like trying a new build. For some reasons, during the times I play on MTGO, I see alot of Dredge (esp manaless) which can combo in turn one with goblin chelblechers or reanimators or the latest craze, burn. I can say that I do no have a good record against all these decks as they kill or combo off faster then I usually can. Blood Moon does not do much as many are manaless or red or black only as well resulting in dead cards in the first game. I am also seeing pox more recently. Assuming these are my meta at the moment, how can I change my sideboard to improve my chances game 2 and 3?

No matter how great firebolt is against many decks like delver and elves, I was thinking of taking some out and putting in more RIP againt the dredge and reanimators or even maybe a cage since I can take 5 cards out at least against these decks? (moon plus magus).

For Pox and Burn, any ideas? Not sure if life gain is the best idea but pox and nethervoid can be pretty bad. Or maybe its just the way I play at this time.

What are the usual decks you face at this current meta ?

[Dice_Box]

You get days like that. Last night I played 3 games and got the bye. The games where Manaless Dredge, Oops and Red deck. You just get those nights

[oliverpool]

You get days like that. Last night I played 3 games and got the bye. The games where Manaless Dredge, Oops and Red deck. You just get those nights

ya I expect so. As I indicated, I have been trying various tweaks. And I find that this version seems to do a little better against the current meta. I in fact beat a burn and a dredge and reanimator a few times in the last few days with this version. Of course I understand I may be blasted here as it does not have any welder and imperial rec as well. Not saying that it cannot be added so that it qualifies. I think it was a deck that was a top 4 in a recent italian legacy tourney. what do you guys think?

3 x tutors
3 x swords
1 x canonist
1 x RIP
2 x Ob ring
1 x Leyline of Sanctity
2 x Faithless looting
2 x Pyroblast
2 x REB
2 x Pyroclasm
4 x Blood Moon
4 x Spirit Guide
1 x Koth
4 x Ancient Tomb
3 x Arid mesa
2 x Buried Ruin
1 x Karakas
4 x Mountain
4 x Plains
4 x Grindstone
2 x Top
4 x painter
2 x bridge
1 x Trinisphere
1 x Helm

SB consist of (which I made a few changes to suit my meta) which includes alot of chalice of void cast at 1 and creatures

1 x Swords
1 x RIP
1 x Spirit of the labyrinth
1 x Leyline of Sanctity
1 x Wrath
1 x Pyroblast
1 x REB
2 x Pyroclasm
1 x Shattering pulse
2 x Magus
1 x Volcanic fallout
1 x wear and tear (Why is this not played more for this deck? Seems like a very flexible card. Of course disenchant is good but if there is no white mana, at least you can still use the destroy artifact part)

[cab0747]

You get days like that. Last night I played 3 games and got the bye. The games where Manaless Dredge, Oops and Red deck. You just get those nights

I feel you on this. I did 2 dailies last week: 3/4 matches were against burn in the first. In the second, 2/4 were against burn and my final match was against Belcher. Surprisingly, I managed to win a match against burn in each event.

Anyways, I actually got everything setup to stream. The Beta doesn't play nice with XSplit Gamecaster, however. It seems the overlay doesn't appear with the Beta client. to get around this, I am currently using the broadcaster and sharing a screen area. It seems to be working alright, but if anyone has any suggestions I am open to them.

I will do the 7:30 EST Legacy daily every Tuesday (barring real life garbage, of course) and I will also attempt to do the Wednesday and Sunday dailies at the same time. While I am not expert, but constructive criticism is always welcomed. I only hope to not completely embarrass myself here.

[oliverpool]

I feel you on this. I did 2 dailies last week: 3/4 matches were against burn in the first. In the second, 2/4 were against burn and my final match was against Belcher. Surprisingly, I managed to win a match against burn in each event.

Anyways, I actually got everything setup to stream. The Beta doesn't play nice with XSplit Gamecaster, however. It seems the overlay doesn't appear with the Beta client. to get around this, I am currently using the broadcaster and sharing a screen area. It seems to be working alright, but if anyone has any suggestions I am open to them.

I will do the 7:30 EST Legacy daily every Tuesday (barring real life garbage, of course) and I will also attempt to do the Wednesday and Sunday dailies at the same time. While I am not expert, but constructive criticism is always welcomed. I only hope to not completely embarrass myself here.

Will you be recording and allowing others to view your games like kapncook?

[mcbain]

Play 3 spellskite I found it decent vs burn

[LeoCop 90]

Play a one off warmth and find it with tutor then proceed to win the game

[teonsw]

since we can tutor enchantments would it be worth checking out a singleton circle of protection red?

[jandax]

Only if it's Beta.

On a more serious note, LoS does more and overlaps into other matches. YOu gotta have mana up for CoP:R.

[Hopo]

Only if it's Beta.

On a more serious note, LoS does more and overlaps into other matches. YOu gotta have mana up for CoP:R.

The point is to paint the world red and use it in plenty of other matchups as well.
If I were to play with the whitesplash, CoP: Red would be on my radar. Other option is CoP: Blue and a painter, as it keeps your blasts still live but it's a losing strategy to rely on Painter against burn.

[cab0747]

since we can tutor enchantments would it be worth checking out a singleton circle of protection red?

I would take a 1-of Warmth over CoP.

[cab0747]

Will you be recording and allowing others to view your games like kapncook?

Of course. However, please give me a little time to get used to the software. I promise I will do my best to record the matches for later use though.

[oliverpool]

Play 3 spellskite I found it decent vs burn

This was one of the cards I was thinking about as it seems popular in this deck a little bit earlier? I have to pick up a few to test it out.

I seem to be seeing alot of folks playing chalice of void at this time. If a oppo plays this and sets it to 1, it almost lights out for us. Tutor nope. Blast nope, Grind nope, Swords nope, Bolt nope, Top nope. There seems to be a dredge deck that runs 4 of this MB.

After the past few days play testing the deck i posted above, I really miss having Welder in play. I am thinking of what to cut to have a few back in. I may remove leyline, swords, RIP and helm to the SB and add in a couple of welder and a few rec plus revoker. With so many people playing chalice of void and needle, i think having a alternate way to win with RIP and helm seems important esp in game 2 and 3.

[teonsw]

I would take a 1-of Warmth over CoP.

This card is awesome... might need to try it.

[LeoCop 90]

Leyline of Sanctity is effective against more matchups than warmth, but it eats 4 sideboard slots while warmth is a one off.

[mcbain]

I am going to jam warmth. Name red on painter and sit back behind your bridge.

[cab0747]

I am going to jam warmth. Name red on painter and sit back behind your bridge.

That is the plan. All moon effects around G2 and G3. Bring in Warmth, get ONE Plateau (don't want to expose ourselves to PoP if they left it in), Tutor or naturally draw warmth early, and then pray.

Also, a T3-4 combo would be nice :laugh: