[Primer/Deck] High Tide

[GoldenCid]

Made a 3rd with my candleless list. Im very glad because it has been a very long time since i ran tide for last time. I'd apreciate advises to imporve my game.

4 Bstorm
4 ponder
4 preordain
4 tide
4 spiral
4 fow
2
flusterstorm
1 pact of negation
1 intuition
1 meditate
4 merchant scroll
3 turnabout
2 cloud of fae
3 wish
1 zenith

18 lands (6 fetchs and 12 islands)

Side:

1 BF
1 Turnabout
1rebuilds
2 pierce
2 surgical
1 hibernation
1 snap
1 meditate
1 echoing truth
2 wipe away
1 zenith
1 pact of negation

i sided in pierce in every match in exchange of 1 tide and 1 intuition.

Faced: aggro loam and two different versions of esper blade.

What do you think about testing retraced image instead of cloud of fae??

THx!!

GC.

[Isaac]

I would like to here some thoughts on running misdirection as either a one of or a sideboard slot option. This would be are force number 5 and could also cripple an opposing jund or bug player. With the current sideboard I'm running I play 2x spell pierce and 2x remora. The remora is absurd against most decks and I will continue playing it however the spell pierce has been iffy at times and is worth considering cutting down or all together.

[feline]

At one time I did have a Misdirection in the sideboard, but I've since moved it out as between Force of Will, Flusterstorm, & Pact of Negation, it's enough lines of play from cheap/free to cast counterspells. When it was in there, very rarely if at all that I can currently recall, did I ever Wish for a Misdirection, almost always it's a Pact, or in some cases the 1 Flusterstorm in the sideboard.

But that's just me, if one is bigger on running more 1 of's, it is "Free" to cast like Force of Will, so it's "kinda" like a Wishable Force of Will when you have 4 Force's maindeck, that's the biggest argument that I could make promoting it, since technically Flusterstorm costs 1, & Pact of Negation has that next upkeep cost so it's really not used before the combo turn.

After all that, I could also just say "try it out for yourself & toy with the idea for a while" Put it in and do some games, see if you find yourself using it more or less than you expect, etc. Though you probably don't need to be told that. ^^

-edit-

Something I decided to look over recently, all 7 Open events, the archetypes I went against, & my win/loss record over those archetypes live. Again, this does not include local game store events / 1,000's of playtesting games, this is just Live at the Open Series:

Matches: No losses
Deathblade 2 wins
Humans 1 win
B/W Stax 1 win
Affinity 1 win
Death & Taxes 1 win
TES 1 win
UB Tezzeret 1 win
Merfolk 1 win
Junk/The Rock 1 win
American Delver 1 win
Nic Fit 1 win
Jund 3 wins
Walking Dead/Jund hybrid 1 win
UR Delver 1 win
Reanimator 1 win
BUG Control 2 wins 1 draw

Mix results, wins & losses
Goblins 4 wins 1 loss
Esperblade 3 wins 1 loss
Maverick 2 win 1 loss
RUG 3 wins 3 losses
ANT 2 wins 2 loss 1 intentional draw
UW Miracle top control 1 win 1 loss
Team America/BUG aggro 1 win 1 loss
Omniscience 1 win 1 loss
Sneak & Show 1 win 1 loss
Shardless BUG 1 win 1 loss
Elves 1 win 2 losses

No wins
Bant 1 loss
NO BUG 1 loss

Also to note:
Games lost due to fizzling: 4, +1 fizzle where I still won the game.
Games lost completely to my own play mistakes where I otherwise would have very likely won: 3, +1 where it didn't matter but I still made a major mistake, & +2 where I still won & just "got lucky".

[Isaac]

Thanks feline. I got some other things on my plate at the moment but I want to get this all figured out before gencon and rock indy. I think the deck is really strong but I feel theirs one or two things missing from it. I need to crunch some numbers test a bunch and see what works and what doesn't.

[herbig]

...I want to get this all figured out before gencon and rock indy.

Awkward.

[flrn]

It's been a while, since I've done a longer post in this forum, because I didn't play legacy at all apart from two grand prix trials for Strasbourg and Strasbourg itself, where I played Canadian/UW Miracles. I learned a valueable lesson though. Don't try to meta in legacy. Just play, what you're used to and have fun. And that's what I did two times in the past two weeks. But let's start with the list:

4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
1 Intuition
3 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
4 Turnabout
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Time Spiral
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
12 Island

Sideboard
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Envelop
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Intuition
2 Pact of Negation
1 Snap
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Wipe Away
2 Grafdigger's Cage

Still the same maindeck as late 2011/early 2012 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7506&iddeck=54472), because why not. It is still awesome and Wizards didn't print any good blue spells in the meantime. For all the copypaster's out there. I recommend -1 Chain of Vapor and a third Grafdigger's Cage in the board. So anyway, I played two local tournaments, because I had the time and thought legacy could be fun.

Frankfurt, 20 players:

Round 1 Elves 2-0
Round 2 Junk 0-2
Round 3 UR Delver 2-0
Round 4 Tezzeret Stax 2-1
Round 5 Elves 2-1

Mainz, 34 players:

Round 1 GW Maverick 2-0
Round 2 Death'n Taxes 2-0
Round 3 UR SneakShow 2-0
Round 4 Jund 1-2
Round 5 GW Maverick 2-0
Round 6 UWb Miracles 1-0, he concedes after game one, because he was first place anyway, due to me losing round 4.

The deck is awesome. I feel like I'm only losing games to mulligans and heavy discard draws of my opponents. I didn't face much tempo decks, but I love to play the matches against tempo decks, due to the massive amount of interactions between both players. With three Pact of Negation postboard against tempo decks, I also feel comfortable in that matchup, because we should be winning game one, due to him having so many cards in the deck, which do nothing against us.

So anyway, to touch on the sideboard. I feel Chain of Vapor isn't needed. It was included to have a wish target for one blue mana, so you can get rid of anything by playing Cunning Wish into Chain of Vapor for 2UU. The problem is, I rather dig for my solutions with cantrips/Merchant Scroll, than spent a Wish on it. I played a lot of the matchups, where Chain of Vapor could be useful and I never wanted to use it. That's why I'm recommending an additional Grafdigger's Cage. I really feel like it's the best Yardhate at the moment. It's proactive. You can protect it with your counters. It slows Dredge down, which is all we need in that matchup to combo out on turn four. And it is spectacular against Elves. Talking about Elves. Be aware of Ruric Thar. He will be in maindecks and he is scary as hell.

On the other hand, we swapped out the sideboard Meditate for a sideboard Intuition, due to recent discussions in here (can't remember when we actually did it). The reason behind that is, that if you are so desperate to use Cunning Wish on a business spell, you need to untap after that anyway. The sequence Cunning Wish -> Meditate -> Turnabout (Time Spiral, Merchant Scroll -> Turnabout) costs 10 (12) mana. The sequence Cunning Wish -> Intuition -> Time Spiral costs 12 mana. There aren't many situations where 10 to 12 mana makes a huge difference and Intuition makes it, that we get what we want 100%. Meditate is always the gamble. I think it's a good change, even though I didn't need to use it in those two tournaments and even though it is vulnerable to Surgical Extraction/Extirpate. You just need to be aware of those cards, when you are trying to use that.

[feline]

I can second that, if you know the format enough from your decks perspective, & your confident that you're playing a good enough deck to get there, then you can't control specifically what match up's you'll get, a lot of times you might not even run into some of the "best decks" because the format is just that diverse.

-edit- July 9th. Real life is getting in the way, I won't be hitting SCG Minneapolis like I planned, it looks like now my next one will be Seattle when it comes back into town in October. As far as High Tide goes lately, keep pushing/testing/etc, the deck is in a good position right now, & the deck is basically "off the radar" again since it's not had a higher profile top 16+ placing for a few months now.

[feline]

Real life is real life, bla bla bla. Long story short, took care of some things that at first looked like would prevent me from going, & now I might be on again for SCGMINN as I originally planned. Will keep informed if/when I get ticket, will be sometime in the next week!

[pollution]

Hey everyone,

It has been a while since I've posted here (asking for advice) but I had put MTG and the deck on hold because all of my friends were busy cubing/playing standard when I wanted to practice legacy for a tournament so I stopped playing altogether. However, my friends decided to enter the SCGO in NJ this weekend (from what I was told, the biggest one on record) so I went along with them. My record was pretty awful, but it was my fault - first tournament jitters + almost zero knowledge of deck match-ups. Overall record was 2-4-1. Could've been 4-2-1 or 5-2-0 if I didn't make so many misplays.

First game was against maverick. The only 3 decks I had actually played against before the tourney were reanimator, dredge and enchantress (decks that my friends ran) so I had never seen this deck before. First game, my opponent 2nd turn Thalia'd, which I FoW'd, 3rd turn Avon Mindcensor, 4th turn Gaddock Teag. The only counter I had other than the opening hand FoW was a flusterstorm so that game was pretty much done. 2nd game I countered his first Thalia but couldn't counter his second. I managed to go off on turn 5 and combo'd off. 3rd game I made a huge misplay. Down to 5 life I didn't have a choice but to go off with 2 islands, a high tide, 2 turnabouts, and a preordain in hand. I managed to cantrip into others and got storm up to 15, leaving him with 2 cards in deck. The last 2 cards in his deck were GSZ's and with 10 seconds left on the clock it didn't dawn on me that I could've won if I wished into a surgical extraction. I ended up losing after he cycled the GSZ back into his deck 2 more times. 0-1-0

Second game was against what I thought was an RU delver variation. First game he had 3 flipped delvers in play but I managed to combo off at 4 life. 2nd game he went pure goblins and ended up winning on 1 mountain by casting a goblin guide EVERY turn. I kept a hand that I figured I could cantrip into combo pieces but the only things I got were echoing truth and turnabout so I lost the 2nd game. 3rd game he said he drew a perfect hand - lackeys, matrons, and chieftains. Think I lost that one in 4 rounds. 0-2-0

Third was against another goblin deck. Both games I managed to top-deck a turnabout or cantrip that gave me the last combo piece needed to go off. One of the games I was lucky I waited an extra turn for a counter - he tried to fireblast me when i was at 4 life before my Time Spiral went off but I happened to have a flusterstorm as the last card in my hand. The only answers he had were mindbreak traps. 1-2-0

Fourth was against a UG delver variation from what I could tell. We played 2 games and ran out of time, but I never saw a third color. First game I mulled to 5 but managed to draw out his counters by continually trying to turnabout his lands and baiting with brainstorms. I combo'd off on turn 4 when he only had 1 card left in his hand after a 2nd time spiral (first one gave me 3 FoW, 2 lands, 1 turnabout, and another time spiral). Next game I scooped almost as soon as time ended because he went heavy on counters. I had no cards in hand and he still had 2 soft counters, but couldn't do enough damage to kill me before the 5 turns were up. I made a heavy misplay missing one of his flusterstorm counts on my turnabout and fizzled. I could've drawn it out to time but he was cool so I just scooped. 1-2-1

Fifth game was against another goblin deck - go figure. Combo'd off on first game, nothing notable. 2nd game time spiral gave me nothing but turnabouts and FoW, and topdeck was 4 islands in a row. Last game was another lackey-chieftain-guide filled hand and he cleaned up on turn 4-5. Don't remember why I couldn't answer but I think this game I kept a bad hand hoping to cantrip into something useful. 1-3-1

Sixth game was an enchantress deck. No answers to anything except Rest in Peace, which I was able to work around and eventually echoing truth. The guy I played was cool about it and was calling every step I was going to make because he used to run the same deck so we were just laughing the whole time. 2-3-1

Seventh (last) game I played was against RWU delver. First game I kept a hand full of cantrips and counters but never got any combo piece I needed. He ran a lot of Thalias and stoneforges. 2nd game I popped a fetch at the end of his turn but forgot to get the land because I got distracted by friends lol. Would have been able to go off during my turn but with no turnabouts in hand there was nothing I could do. Dumbest thing I did all tournament. 2-4-1

Dropped after 7th match because my friends in the sealed tourney were done, one friend dropped because he was tired, and last friend dropped to trade so I didn't want to make them all wait. They ended up trading for another 2 hours so I could've finished, but it's too late now. Overall, I'm pretty mad that I made so many huge mistakes and kept so many bad hands but I definitely know better now.

I obviously didn't get info on everyone, but from what I gathered I was one of MAYBE 2 people running Spiral Tide. My friends ran reanimator and omnitell. As far as the meta in this area was for the tournament it seemed heavy on delver variations, stoneblade and, surprisingly, there were a lot of dredge, reanimator, and enchantress. At one point the end of my table had 4 reanimator players at the same time, plus my friend, a mirror match he played, and the guy's brother. My omnitell friend played 2 dredge and said he saw a bunch of others (he also has a dredge deck) as he was walking around. My reanimator friend and I both played enchantress, and one of my opponents said he played 2 other enchantress decks and saw another 2 playing a table away from us. Jund didn't seem that heavy, but almost everyone I played said they lost to the same few jund players.

Record was definitely poor, but the deck was definitely solid during the tournament. I was just too nervous to think straight during play, but if I wasn't I think I would've done much better even with very little knowledge of other decks and newer cards. Also, I had never sideboarded in cards before...ever, so I wasn't sure what to put in or take out. I mostly took out HT+turnabout, and flusterstorms/meditate depending on how heavily the opponent seemed to use creatures. Pretty much every game an echoing truth/snap, surgical extraction (1 for wish, 1 put into main), and 4th flusterstorm or spellpierce. Any input on what I should be siding in/out would be appreciated - I might also attend the SCGO in DC.

Also, almost every single person I played knew what deck I was running as soon as I made my first land drop. Turns out they all have either played high tide in the past or knew someone currently playing it. Sounds like that's a good thing.

This is what I ran:
12 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn

4 High Tide
4 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Blue Sun's Zenith

SB
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Pact of Negation
2 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Snap
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Surgical Extraction

I might put in more echoing truths because they came up pretty big during the games I've won, and might also test Ertai's Meddling. It was originally on my board but I figured it would be better to just play what is known to work for my first event. If I can make the next event hopefully I'll do better. A lot of people seemed to have gotten rid of hydroblast/pyroblast completely for mindbreak trap. I also didn't see any emrakuls outside of the few omnitell/sneakshow decks that I watched, of which there were very few.

Definitely had fun yesterday, and I'd like to thank anyone I've played if they happen to read this. Sorry for the long post.

[feline]

Congrats on pushing High Tide, the more of us there are, the better!

-edit- Just booked a flight for SCGMINN, talk about last minute. Pushing again on August 4th! Attempt #8 with High Tide. (Will be doing Saturday as well)

[feline]

Time for another go! On my way to Minneapolis for this weekend! Last post till I get back.

[pollution]

Time for another go! On my way to Minneapolis for this weekend! Last post till I get back.

Good luck Feline

[pollution]

Feline is one of the feature matches! Good luck!

[JDK]

Feline is one of the feature matches! Good luck!

Just saw Game 1 against UWr Helm...guess you don't need luck, when you've got a bad opponent. He has Clique ready and doesn't play it in response to the second High Tide to take the Time Spiral.

CB with Land on Top, Feline fetches Pact with Merchant Scroll. O.o
Okay, the guy didn't understand his Islands tap for +U too...

:rolleyes:

[pollution]

Just saw Game 1 against UWr Helm...guess you don't need luck, when you've got a bad opponent. He has Clique ready and doesn't play it in response to the second High Tide to take the Time Spiral.

CB with Land on Top, Feline fetches Pact with Merchant Scroll. O.o

2nd game fizzle was some pretty bad luck, bad opponent or not. In any case, congrats to Feline on that win.

Yeah, one of the people I played had friends that played HT and he still kept forgetting that his islands produced extra U as well.

[astormbrewing]

Just saw Game 1 against UWr Helm...guess you don't need luck, when you've got a bad opponent. He has Clique ready and doesn't play it in response to the second High Tide to take the Time Spiral.

CB with Land on Top, Feline fetches Pact with Merchant Scroll. O.o
Okay, the guy didn't understand his Islands tap for +U too...

:rolleyes:

He also didn't know that CB triggers on Wipe Away and that trigger still resolves even with Split Second. Dude had no idea how High Tide worked.

[pollution]

He also didn't know that CB triggers on Wipe Away and that trigger still resolves even with Split Second. Dude had no idea how High Tide worked.

I thought he just didn't have any way of getting a 3 cost on top of his library. Not too familiar with newer cards/decklists so I don't know what he had in his hand lol

[Higgs]

He had an Enlightened Tutor in his hand so he could have played that to fetch a 3cc enchantment (I saw Blood Moon and Detention Sphere in his deck) and place it on top of his deck. With the CB/Top lock on the board that would have been the game.

[LeoCop 90]

Men, with split second he can't cast enlightened tutor and he can't use his top... counterbalance triggers but he must rely on what he has on top of his library.

[Higgs]

You can cast Enlightened Tutor in your main phase you know..

Edit: In case it's not clear, instead of passing the turn holding that Tutor and being left helpless against split second what you should do is, cast Tutor to get a 3cc and if they bounce your CB in response you can still recast it and pass the turn with your lock on the board and your 3cc on top of your library. Just because your cards are instants doesn't mean that you have to do everything "in response". This shouldn't be an obscure play for a Miracles player btw because against High Tide floating a 3cc on top is the only trick that you should be aware of.

[lordofthepit]

You can cast Enlightened Tutor in your main phase you know..

Edit: In case it's not clear, instead of passing the turn holding that Tutor and being left helpless against split second what you should do is, cast Tutor to get a 3cc and if they bounce your CB in response you can still recast it and pass the turn with your lock on the board and your 3cc on top of your library. Just because your cards are instants doesn't mean that you have to do everything "in response". This shouldn't be an obscure play for a Miracles player btw because against High Tide floating a 3cc on top is the only trick that you should be aware of.

I didn't watch the game, but at some point, you will need to draw your 3cc card that you tutored for. If you don't have a good clock on the board, this turns into a guessing game where you spin your Top on your upkeep and force your opponent to decide whether the 3cc card is on the top of your library (in which case he should Wipe Away after you draw) or 2nd from top (in which case he should Wipe Away on upkeep).

I wouldn't waste an Enlightened Tutor just to protect against Wipe Away. I'd rather just grab a second Counterbalance or an Ethersworn Canonist if I were worried, or more likely, save it as a "hard counter" at some later point or as a way to shuffle the deck. Also, keeping in Blood Moon and Detention Sphere against High Tide is weak.

[Higgs]

You don't have to draw that 3cc when you have Top on the board, you can keep floating it. In the game Miracles player had the CB/Top lock on the board and a Clique if I'm not mistaken. So he already had a clock. Also this was g1 and he still had those 3cc enchantments to tutor for. In any case, against High Tide I think floating that 3cc on top when you already have the lock is exactly the right play as it shuts off both Wipe Away and Cunning Wish to access other bounce spells. Tutoring for Canonist would be weak because High Tide can still cast Wish and bounce her and go off. If you get another Counterbalance High Tide can wish for Echoing Truth and then go off. Why would you present them with mere obstacles when you can establish a hard lock? Once you get the lock with CB/Top and a 3cc floating on top of your library it is only a matter of time until you can draw a win condition like Clique and ride it to victory.

I was a bit disappointed when commentators kept joking about the non-interactive games when there were multiple levels of interaction going on. Even if the Miracles player wasn't aware of them..

[JDK]

Dude had no idea how High Tide worked.
Or his own deck. He was 4-1 though before this match, which makes you wonder...

Anyway, that's why I usually board in Brain Freeze against CB/Top.

[Pdingo]

Feline congratulation for the 11th place! Nice;)

Can you explain me the 4 tops? I see there are better against discard and those are pernaments.
Better after timespiral.
But would you kp them in?
Are they better then preordain?:)

Greets dingo

[Megadeus]

I didn't watch the game, but at some point, you will need to draw your 3cc card that you tutored for. If you don't have a good clock on the board, this turns into a guessing game where you spin your Top on your upkeep and force your opponent to decide whether the 3cc card is on the top of your library (in which case he should Wipe Away after you draw) or 2nd from top (in which case he should Wipe Away on upkeep).

I wouldn't waste an Enlightened Tutor just to protect against Wipe Away. I'd rather just grab a second Counterbalance or an Ethersworn Canonist if I were worried, or more likely, save it as a "hard counter" at some later point or as a way to shuffle the deck. Also, keeping in Blood Moon and Detention Sphere against High Tide is weak.

Meh if he wipe aways after draw you simply recast your CB mainphase. I too wondered why he wasn't using E Tutor to get a 3cc spell. Between that and not knowing high tide is symmetrical it's obvious he didn't know the deck that well. One question though. If he taps his islands for mana after you have resolved a high tide or two, do you have to acknowledge that he technically has mana floating even if he doesn't realize it?

[ScatmanX]

Congratz to Feline for the finish!
Loved the 4 Tops on the deck.
Have some questions about the list, over something me and some teammembers have discussed and used before, along with 4 Tops md:

- Have you considered using Counterbalance on the side? It greatly increases the combo and heavy disruption MUs, and can help against several different decks, making you do not have to rush for the win, like against Elves (since they'll probably take out Decay, and you can easily lock them by T2). The downside is that it sucks mid-combo, and even pre-combo depending on the boardstate.

- Haveyou considered using Helm of Awakening on the main/side? It gives you another combo possibility (2x ToP + 1x Helm = endless storm), that pull wins out of nowhere, even Turn2; make Pierces/Dazes much more laughable; Makes the possibility of winning with Time Spiral way better, if you have 1-2 of them into play, and play a number of Turnabouts. The downside is that it is Decayable, and might very well help you opponents get ahead of you sometimes, so you should be carefull with it.
Edit: Helm also 'counters' Thalias effect, and give you an combo trough Ethersworn Cannonist once you have a Brain Freeze on your hand.

Congratz again. Always a pleasure to see you play.

[Pdingo]

I think use counterbalance or the helm are bad ideas..
Why? Because you want to go off and have anyway a good match up against combo.
And you cant search them!
Helm and balance are bad draws that you don't want in a time spiral.
You dont have a lot space to side them in too.
That's it.

[feline]

If you think the round 6 feature match was ridiculous, just wait until I write my tournament report, it's nothing compared to what happened off camera, 3 rounds earlier, for an hour & 15 minutes, & yes I was playing fast. It's partially why I was messy on camera, I couldn't believe how round 6 resulted, right after what happened round 3. If you were judging, I apologize again, I have only once gone to time live at the open series, and it was in Vegas, and only for like a minute or so. What the hell happened in Minneapolis was like lightning striking twice, I'm still shocked.

[JDK]

One question though. If he taps his islands for mana after you have resolved a high tide or two, do you have to acknowledge that he technically has mana floating even if he doesn't realize it?
You have to assume he knows about the High Tide Triggers. However, you can ask him if he has any mana floating to make sure. ;)

[MightyPenguin007]

Or his own deck. He was 4-1 though before this match, which makes you wonder...

Anyway, that's why I usually board in Brain Freeze against CB/Top.

Firstly, props to Feline on another brilliant performance with High Tide. Your play is masterful and a pleasure to watch.

Secondly, I'll play devil's advocate here for the fellow to which H3llsp4wn is referring. Perhaps this was a combination of things. I tend to think that Feline's round 6 opponent may be new to the Legacy environment and has little to no experience playing against High Tide. When you factor those two things together then the match looks really, really rough for the inexperienced player. By no means am I saying I would/could do better, but it's something to consider.

In my own experience, this past February in Atlanta was my first Legacy tourney. I finished 5-4 on the day piloting Merfolk. And while I had seen Deathblade played a bazillion times at these events, I struggled with the matchup and lost 1-2. So it's hard sometimes even if you know what you're playing against if you haven't gone through the motions and actually practiced it. Just my $0.02.

[ubernostrum]

If you think the round 6 feature match was ridiculous, just wait until I write my tournament report, it's nothing compared to what happened off camera, 3 rounds earlier, for an hour & 15 minutes, & yes I was playing fast. It's partially why I was tilting on camera, I couldn't believe how round 6 unfolded, right after what happened round 3. If you were judging, I apologize again, I have only once gone to time live at the open series, and it was in Vegas, and only for like a minute or so. What the hell happened in Minneapolis was like lightning striking twice, I'm still shocked.

I wasn't at this one, but I was at last year's Minneapolis Open, and saw your r6 match this year from the comfort of my couch. You are not the type of High Tide player I have a problem with as a judge. The Solidarity/Reset guy last year, who went off on turn 5 of extras, milled an Emrakul from his opponent, and went off again in response, is the kind of High Tide player I dislike :)

[JDK]

You should be able to read cards though. Especially IF you are unfamiliar with the matchup.

[feline]

As far as my performance during my feature match round 6, it was actually not that impressive this time around, especially compared to the Seattle finals or Semifinals. I am already anxious keeping myself in contention for top 8 round after round getting closer and closer, but dealing that on top of dealing with cameras, makes me EXTREMELY uncomfortable inside. A part of me does like being on camera because I can watch it afterward and everyone loves the spotlight sometimes, but I HATE how vulnerable it makes me feel inside. I was able to deal with it last time, but this time around it just got to me.

~At the start I wanted a 4th land so I could turnabout my opponent at the end of their turn, saw 0 islands in play with 3 in hand, did a ponder, saw a brainstorm, wish & turnabout, wanted the wish & turnabout! But had to pitch it because I'd not be drawing land for a while. Drew random card, put it in hand, then realized there was 1 island in my hand. I still don't know how I didn't see it when I looked the first time.

~Also if I was keeping track of storm count, I could have won game 2 instead of fizzling. But I'm so used to not keeping track of storm after Flusterstorms become hard counters, & it's so much faster to just keep track of mana & how much islands tap for, it basically means I need to get into a better habit of keeping track of storm count and not forgetting about it so much.

~I also put the card picked from opposing Vendilion Clique into my graveyard at first a couple times, then put it on the bottom.

TL DR? Playing on camera, I get self conscious & extremely nervous inside.

[Megadeus]

I feel like it would be like being in my first tourney all over again. I remember when I first began playing in '10 I went to my first FnM with my URW Destructive Force deck and my hands just shaking and being super nervous. I don't really know why. I feel like that is what it must feel like to be under the cam for the thousand people watching you

[MightyPenguin007]

You should be able to read cards though. Especially IF you are unfamiliar with the matchup.

I endorse this statement 110%. Any reasonable and prudent person would request to read the cards if they were unfamiliar with them or the mechanics and then, in turn, be able to reason out how the deck works.

[phazonmutant]

~Also if I was keeping track of storm count, I could have won game 2 instead of fizzling. But I'm so used to not keeping track of storm after Flusterstorms become hard counters, & it's so much faster to just keep track of mana & how much islands tap for, it basically means I need to get into a better habit of keeping track of storm count and not forgetting about it so much.

I was wondering about that. It looked like you had Merchant Scroll in hand before you cast Time Spiral, so the line is Scroll for Wish for Brain Freeze? I had assumed storm wasn't high enough when you didn't take that line.

But regardless, it's always great to see you on camera! It's depressing watching bad High Tide players, so seeing someone who knows the deck and plays fast is nice. Congrats on your top 16!

[JDK]

~Also if I was keeping track of storm count, I could have won game 2 instead of fizzling. But I'm so used to not keeping track of storm after Flusterstorms become hard counters, & it's so much faster to just keep track of mana & how much islands tap for, it basically means I need to get into a better habit of keeping track of storm count and not forgetting about it so much.
I was told it was bad luck. :tongue:


2nd game fizzle was some pretty bad luck, bad opponent or not.

I was like "Where is the Brain Freeze?" and thought you've dropped it completely from your deck, which seems kinda nuts.

[feline]

Thank you, I was very happy walking out with a top 16. Even top 32's are not easily earned. I will likely not be able to do another Open for about 2 months, as the closest one between now and October is Ohio.

[Koby]

You can cast Enlightened Tutor in your main phase you know..

Edit: In case it's not clear, instead of passing the turn holding that Tutor and being left helpless against split second what you should do is, cast Tutor to get a 3cc and if they bounce your CB in response you can still recast it and pass the turn with your lock on the board and your 3cc on top of your library. Just because your cards are instants doesn't mean that you have to do everything "in response". This shouldn't be an obscure play for a Miracles player btw because against High Tide floating a 3cc on top is the only trick that you should be aware of.

I've used this trick against High Tide with Mother of Runes & Ethersworn Canonist using the same reasoning. Doing it mainphase gives the player an opportunity to get around Wipe Away or other forms of bounce while still not being locked out. It's a good trick to know.

[flrn]

~Also if I was keeping track of storm count, I could have won game 2 instead of fizzling. But I'm so used to not keeping track of storm after Flusterstorms become hard counters, & it's so much faster to just keep track of mana & how much islands tap for, it basically means I need to get into a better habit of keeping track of storm count and not forgetting about it so much.

Seriously? You have to be really bad not keeping track of storm count, when you have multiple cards in your deck, which have the actual mechanic storm printed on it.

[feline]

I've used this trick against High Tide with Mother of Runes & Ethersworn Canonist using the same reasoning. Doing it mainphase gives the player an opportunity to get around Wipe Away or other forms of bounce while still not being locked out. It's a good trick to know.

I've seen something like that from Maverick before. They would attempt to give their hate bear protection from blue, so I'd have to bounce it right away or let it get protection. If I bounced it, they would just replay it untapped with an Aether Vial at any time. It's why I love Rebuild against the Aether Vial + Mother of Runes + Ethersworn Canonist setup. I just Rebuild at the end of their turn.

And yes, not keeping track of storm is something I should stop ignoring. I usually don't care once the Flusterstorms become hard counters, but Brain Freeze is the kill condition every once in a while.

[Koby]

I've seen something like that from Maverick before. They would attempt to give their hate bear protection from blue, so I'd have to bounce it right away or let it get protection. If I bounced it, they would just replay it untapped with an Aether Vial at any time. It's why I love Rebuild against the Aether Vial + Mother of Runes + Ethersworn Canonist setup. I just Rebuild at the end of their turn.

And yes, not keeping track of storm is something I should stop ignoring. I usually don't care once the Flusterstorms become hard counters, but Brain Freeze is the kill condition every once in a while.

The one time that came up for me, it was with 2 Mother of Runes and Canonist, so I needed the chance to recast it against a known Wipe Away (wished for). I can see where Vial versions would present a different and easier way around that lock-bear.

[feline]

Oh by the way, Flusterstorm is not a secret anymore. 2 players, American Delver, & Shardless BUG, brought them in against me from their sideboards, & effectively stopped me from comboing off game 3 in both match ups. These are the only 2 matches I lost in Minneapolis. If Flusterstorm catches on, I might consider Gigadrowse as a 1 of to try & tap them out at the end of their turn, since Flusterstorm can more easily stop a Turnabout, but not so much multiple Gigadrowse.

[JDK]

Oh by the way, Flusterstorm is not a secret anymore.
Not sure if serious...

[astormbrewing]

Oh by the way, Flusterstorm is not a secret anymore. 2 players, American Delver, & Shardless BUG, brought them in against me from their sideboards, & effectively stopped me from comboing off game 3 in both match ups. These are the only 2 matches I lost in Minneapolis. If Flusterstorm catches on, I might consider Gigadrowse as a 1 of to try & tap them out at the end of their turn, since Flusterstorm can more easily stop a Turnabout, but not so much multiple Gigadrowse.

I'm a huge fan of Gigadrowse and recommend it. I used it against Josh Cho the last time I played High Tide and won as a result. He was on American Delver.

[feline]

Hey astormbrewing, are you planning on any west coast SCG's in October or later even though you're east coast? Including the Invitational in Vegas in December?

[astormbrewing]

Hey astormbrewing, are you planning on any west coast SCG's in October or later even though you're east coast? Including the Invitational in Vegas in December?

With the school year starting, I can't leave the coast. You should really try and come to either Legacy Champs or Grand Prix DC in November :-)

[feline]

I'll keep informed. The only reason I hit St Louis & Minneapolis this summer was because there's been nothing West coast, but that changes in October.

[phazonmutant]

Gigadrowse is pretty sweet - but would you board it in to Scroll for, or would you plan on Wishing for it? In your experience, do people usually counter Merchant Scrolls or Wishes, or do they wait to counter the thing you tutor for?

[defector]

Congrats on 11th place well done!!

[feline]

Ah there you are! (Got to meet Defector at the Open, played against them round 2, though it wasn't a mirror ha ha.)

[astormbrewing]

Gigadrowse is pretty sweet - but would you board it in to Scroll for, or would you plan on Wishing for it? In your experience, do people usually counter Merchant Scrolls or Wishes, or do they wait to counter the thing you tutor for?

Just keep it as a Wish target, because you have Turnabout main. As long as you can push the Wish through, they won't counter Gigadrowse unless they have Flusterstorm.

[notap123]

Just keep it as a Wish target, because you have Turnabout main. As long as you can push the Wish through, they won't counter Gigadrowse unless they have Flusterstorm.

Couldn't you board a stifle instead and pay the cost of the first fluster? Seems like it would have more of an edge in terms of mana efficiency especially if it is being wished for.

[feline]

You could do that, though Trickbind would do the same thing with split second. However then you'd need a second card to get them to tap out.

[notap123]

You could do that, though Trickbind would do the same thing with split second. However then you'd need a second card to get them to tap out.

Totally spaced Trickbind. Do the replicates of Gigadrowse count towards storm?

[astormbrewing]

Totally spaced Trickbind. Do the replicates of Gigadrowse count towards storm?

They do not.



702.55a Replicate is a keyword that represents two abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the spell with replicate is on the stack. The second is a triggered ability that functions while the spell with replicate is on the stack. "Replicate [cost]" means "As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may pay [cost] any number of times" and "When you cast this spell, if a replicate cost was paid for it, copy it for each time its replicate cost was paid. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for any of the copies."


You're copying the spell, not casting it.

[notap123]

You're copying the spell, not casting it.

So if Gigadrowse is countered the replicates still go off? Sorry if this is elementary I am still catching up on the last few years of abilities.

[astormbrewing]

So if Gigadrowse is countered the replicates still go off? Sorry if this is elementary I am still catching up on the last few years of abilities.

When you cast Gigadrowse and pay for Replicate, a triggered ability goes on the stack.* When the triggered ability resolves, copies of Gigadrowse are put on the stack, and you pick targets.*

If the original Gigadrowse is countered at any point where * is located above, the triggered ability and the copies will still go on the stack and resolve, so yes.

[feline]

Trying to add more dates. Now aiming for the following over the rest of the year.
1st Cleveland Oh October 6th
2nd Milwaukee Wi October 13th
3rd Seattle Wa (Local) October 20th
4th Los Angeles Ca November 3rd
5th Dallas Tx November 10th
6th Oakland Ca December 8th
7th Las Vegas NV *Invitational* December 14th-15th-16th

Sorry about where I'm not going. But the further out it is in distance, the more it costs. If I had my way though, I'd go every weekend wherever it is (For Legacy of course). But only a very select few can do that. (There are some players that actually do.)

[monovfox]

I'll be pushing Death and Taxes at SCG Oakland, I expect to finally meet you :P

[feline]

Well then I'll see you in December!

[J-Funk]

So I took down 5-8th place (in a cut to top 8) at the Vancouver Summer Legacy Classic this weekend slinging Tide. I had a lot of fun, the event had about 28 people there. My list was as follows:


4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Turnabout
3 Flusterstorm
3 Cunning Wish
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Preordain
1 Meditate
1 Intuition
1 Blue Sun's Zenith


3 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
12 Island


SIDEBOARD:
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Brain Freeze
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation
1 Intuition
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Trickbind
1 Capsize
1 Turnabout



The swiss was five rounds, and while I don't remember too much of the specific games, here's a quick writeup:

Round 1: Bye! 2-0
My opponent never showed up, apparently he had preregistered and was running late

Round 2: Elves 1-2
Ugh, so many regrets in this round. Game one I took handily combo-ing off turn 4.
Game two, he leads with some elves, turn one I play an Island. Turn two he combos pretty hard and then plays natural order. I say sure, and then look down and see a brainstorm in may hand. Ah well, mistakes happen. He goes and gets Ruric-Thar. What a beating that guy is!
Game three I have a flusterstorm and a force of will in hand, but he turn one cabal therapys the Force of will, then turn two flashes it back to grab my fluster. before natural order for Ruric Thar. Not much I can do once that guy hits.

Round 3: Jund 2-1
This was a fantastic match, and I had so much fun with it. Game one was a breeze, as that matchup always is. Games two and three playing through hate like REB and Surgical was challenging, but I eventually got there game three.

Round 4: ANT 2-0
Pretty easy win. Game one was a quick win. Game two my opponent actually had me dead but screwed up on his mana count. He was clearly pretty inexperienced with the deck and I made him earn the win. Glad I did.

Round 5: Draw 0-0-1
I was in 5th after four so I was able to draw into top 8 comfortably.

Quarterfinals: American Delver 0-2
God, I got absolutely trounced in the quarters. I was drawing really badly and my opponent had hate for everything. I honestly felt completely helpless this whole match, my opponent flipped delver on turn to both games and had all of the countermagic backup for years. It was so heartbreaking to get beaten so handily, but these things happen. Delver is always a tough matchup, and when they draw well it's pretty near unwinnable.


Overall it was a great tournament. Matt is an awesome dude, and he is having them quarterly so I can't wait for the Fall classic!

[feline]

Don't know why I haven't shared this here yet. Though the deck is foil/promo'ed/etc out, the one card that's unique are the High Tides. Each alter took around 3 hours but it was worth it, been using these for about 9 months now:

http://i.imgur.com/217xPPs.jpg

[Isaac]

Went to a legacy mox tournament today and was playing the tides. 30 people showed up and it was 5 rounds of swiss. I made some main deck changes and somethings in the side and was very happy with how the deck ran.

round1 omni tell

g1
I sit down we introduce are selves and begin to play the single longest magic game I've ever played in legacy. He tried to go off I countered I tried to go off I fizzled. I try to go off again couple turns later and fizzle. I counter his threats and try to go off one last time and fizzle yet again. My turn ended with me double meditate and he got a fresh 7. Well one of the things I changed main deck was mystic remora. It's now a 2 of in the main and here is why it shines. Mystic is the only thing besides an ocean of islands had around 8 i think all tapped. He decides to play can trip after can trip and eventually lands a show and tell. I drop down a second remora and he goes with omi. He plays a leyline I drawl two he casts bstorm and preordain I drawl 4. He had 3 turns to kill me and in the end when I got to untap I had a total of 17 cards in hand ready to do work. Needless to say my bad luck ended there. 8 mins left in the round

g2
we shuffle up and we play the game again he tried to go off I fluster he pacts i let pact resolve and fluster again. He puts his hand out there and gives me the w.

Round2 1-0 bug cascade
G1 I know the pilot and we sit down and discuss things and get the game going. he has dudes I go off

G2 this was one of my favorite plays of the day. He's running low on mana I'm building and about to go off I cast high tide no problem high tide no problem candle no problem turn about on my lands force. I let it resolve and extract it. I see he has a fluster in hand I have blue suns time spiral and wipe away. I wipe his one open land he floats 3 and now i have 12 available mana 3 of which are floating. I cast blue suns for 3 which he lets resolve then I go into my second main and then cast time spiral which he can do nothing about.

Round3 2-0 belcher

g1 I have force and get his mana producer
g2 I have force fluster surgical and remora

Round4 3-0 delver drawl
Round5 3-1-0 delver drawl

So after swiss I'm 3-2-0 and that nets me 11 points and I'm in second

top 8 omnitell

G1 I have double fluster play smart before freeze and grab blue suns and freeze and then suns while emrakul trigger was on the stack
G2 he tries it again I have counters and then freeze him again i respond to the emrakul trigger by extracting it and after 26 storm counts he mulls his deck

Top 4 run delver
I dunno how I feel about this match up I've played the deck a few times before with a skilled friend and its roughly 35 65 in his favor I think. I got crushed g1 g2 I kept a risky hand that didn't play off in the end.

So for my efforts I was awarded a nice force of will. Thanks for the read and keep on riding them tides

[J-Funk]

How have people been doing testing Mystic Remora? This card seems really exciting, but also very limited. What sort of matchups do you bring it in against?

Additionally, how do people feel about adding Defense Grid to their Sideboard? I've been playing online a lot lately and running into a lot of issues against control and tempo decks simply out-countering me. I've been waiting as long as I can to sculpt a hand and still just been unable to go off properly through their hate. I need better protection and I'm running out of options.

My current changes to the deck: I have put a Pact of Negation back into my mainboard, and started to maindeck a Wipe Away to have some maindeck options in game one against counterbalance or hatebears. I'm still on the fence about that decisions.

In the sideboard, I've removed the Grafdigger's Cages, since I feel like graveyard decks are already pretty favorable. I've added the Defense Grids and Mystic Remoras for now to test them and see what happens.

Anybody have ideas regarding these choices?

[Isaac]

I was bringing in mystic against any counter/combo deck. In theory why I decided to push it to the main was because of hand disruption/pressure decks that left us with nothing while beating are faces in. So far in my match ups and testing it's bananas. Remember everything non critter you drawl a card. The only match up id consider taking it out main deck would be goblins or fish. Defense grid I was considering using in my side but I opted against it. I think it would really come in handy against rug delver. I can't stress to you enough how good wipe away is main deck. Even if you just bounce a candle for extra mana. Has so many good options. I let a show and tell ride because I knew I had it in my hand against omni tell. Surgical extraction!!! It bonkers good. I'm even thinking about making it more than just a 2 of in the side. I also wouldn't mind testing top in the side. Feline how was top main deck for you? Hope this helps you out some j.

[TiMeWaLk]

Swan Song (Theros) looks like a card High Tide player should keep an eye on. A hard counter to Counterspell/Discard/Counterbalance... Of course, it is also annoying against us but I guess the card shines in combo deck.

[Ralf]

Swan Song (Theros) looks like a card High Tide player should keep an eye on. A hard counter to Counterspell/Discard/Counterbalance... Of course, it is also annoying against us but I guess the card shines in combo deck.

In combo really ? I could see a light split with flusterstorm but even fluster seems better in a lot of use cases.
It could shine on NO (hard counter where fluster is pay 2) and on S&T provided that there was only and only one spell played.

No at best, I think it is usable against control. They have no real clock game 1 and giving them a 2/2 flyer won't break the game in their favor.
On a wider scale, his playability will be determined by the meta as usual. If deck lists are likely to pack more & more enchantments, we could see it in some SB.

If only it could also hit artefact :-(

[TiMeWaLk]

Yes, combo really. At least, it is where something on the board matters the less (no PW to defend for exemple), except in match-ups where the clock is already strong. It is incredibly polyvalent compared to Flusterstom, just think about Counterbalance, Pyrostatic Pillar, Thoughseize when the opponent can pay 2... I am going to test the card, that's for sure.

EDIT: I just realized it does not concern artifacts :(

[astormbrewing]

This card only seems useful against discard and enchantments. I really do NOT want this against control, since they can just Force it. Fluster is MUCH better against a control deck (except for maybe Counterbalance).

[Di]

The card isn't better than the 4th Flusterstorm, but it is good enough to replace something like Spell Pierce in a fringe slot or two in the sideboard if you go that route. For a while (and technically still) I was running 1-2 Spell Pierce in the board to help against combo and Counterbalance, and for this deck Swan Song is a strict upgrade. The only non-creature artifact you care about is Chalice of the Void, which is played sparingly and can be bounced anyway. Of course, both cards also compete in the same slots as Defense Grid or Mystic Remora, but I definitely think it'll find a home in here.

[TiMeWaLk]

@astormbrewing

I don't understand what's the problem:

- Against control with Counterbalance, Swan Song is just better than Flusterstorm.

- Without Counterbalance, you are going to use this on your combo turn, which means: you play High Tide, the opponent counters it, the fact that you play Swan Song or Flusterstorm to counter does not matter (The opponent does not care about his counterspell, and will counter your High Tide again if he can).

- Against Discard + Fow, if my opponents decides to FoW my Swan Song to let its Discard resolves, that's anyway a Fow which is not in my way during the combo turn.

Besides what I mentioned above, Swan Song makes our 2 worst match-ups (S&T and UW CB) much better. The token is only relevant for match-ups where the clock is already strong, that is tempo thresh. However, the counter war only occurs when we combo, making the token useless for their clock. The only issue I see is when you wanna run defense grid.

@Di

I am surprised that you think Flusterstorm > Swan Song. Apart from being able to counter multiple spells (which does not happen against good opponents), Swan Song just looks stronger.

[feline]

What makes Flusterstorm strong is the fact that it can't be answered so traditionally. If you get into a counter war, you can Flusterstorm the spell you don't want to resolve & they can't just counter it back like Swan Song / Force of Will / etc. Because of the copies. It basically makes it a hard counter, which I like against opposing combo decks that are faster. As well as it still helping against early discard. As well against Counterbalance, the deck isn't fast, so we have plenty of time to get out bounce against it and prepare with a Wipe Away, which also can't be "traditionally" countered because of Split Second.

Also, with Swan Song, they get a 2/2 creature, which I don't like against early disruption from an aggro deck, especially a tempo aggro deck that's fast.

Now the counter arguments would be this. Later game, Swan Song is a hard counter where sometimes Flusterstorm won't be a hard counter until it's for more than their available mana. Also it can actually be cast against Dream Halls / Sneak Attack / Counterbalance, where with Flusterstorm, you have to save them for opposing counterspells & start off with Force of Will.

In the end, do what you feel most comfortable doing. If you want to go either route with these slots in the deck, just make sure you get those wins doing it, then noone can tell you you're in the wrong.

Oh and if you're curious, I am keeping my Flusterstorms.

[Di]

@Di

I am surprised that you think Flusterstorm > Swan Song. Apart from being able to counter multiple spells (which does not happen against good opponents), Swan Song just looks stronger.

Outside of Counterbalance (which the deck already has several answers for), there are so few enchantment spells you would ever care to counter that it becomes completely inferior to Flusterstorm against a blue deck otherwise, because you can then focus on winning the counter war. In that sense, having an essentially uncounterable card is miles better. Granted there are rare occasions when Swan Song would be better outright, such as a second-chance attempt at going off with few spells, or the opponent having so many lands in play to pay for copies post-Tide, but those situations are few and far between. Hell, at least Flusterstorm will get mileage after a Counterbalance resolves thanks to copies, whereas any Swan Songs drawn afterwards would (probably) be completely dead.

Beyond that, Flusterstorm is also stronger because it will stop an early discard spell better and not risk getting hit by Daze or Pierce or anything else. If you get hit with a Hymn t2 and your Swan Song is countered, the game is incredibly difficult from there on, as opposed to Flusterstorm, which will guarantee protection. Plus I can definitely see situations where using a Swan Song turn 1-2 against a more aggressive deck like Jund could be a huge liability, as it will provide them an extra 4-6 damage at least.

TL; dr - Unless you're specifically dealing with a Counterbalance, you will want a Flusterstorm over it 9/10 times. I really think anyone running any number of Swan Songs before you have a full set of Flusterstorms is mis-building the deck.


On the other side for Swan Song though, I would really like to use it on my own spells and blow someone out by blocking a Gaddock Teeg or Tarmogoyf or something. That will be fun.

[TiMeWaLk]

I get the point, even though I think you hit a bit too strong on Swan Song (SS). The card looks quite good when the opponent is able to pay 2 (or 3 if we have a BS) after its discard spell, which happened too me quite often against Jund. The same holds for sitting with my Flusterstorm in hand when my opponent casts Sneak Attack. All in all, these corner cases do not make up for the raw power of Flusterstorm over SS probably.

Now that I came again on this thread, I am curious how the testing of Sensei's divining top (SDT) went for you. If I remember correctly, you were discussing the inclusion of SDT instead of Mediate. I saw that feline ran also a list with 4 SDT (which I proposed on the old thread with CB in the side board). However, after several tests I found that 4 SDT was way too much.

[feline]

I get the point, even though I think you hit a bit too strong on Swan Song (SS). The card looks quite good when the opponent is able to pay 2 (or 3 if we have a BS) after its discard spell, which happened too me quite often against Jund. The same holds for sitting with my Flusterstorm in hand when my opponent casts Sneak Attack. All in all, these corner cases do not make up for the raw power of Flusterstorm over SS probably.

Now that I came again on this thread, I am curious how the testing of Sensei's divining top (SDT) went for you. If I remember correctly, you were discussing the inclusion of SDT instead of Mediate. I saw that feline ran also a list with 4 SDT (which I proposed on the old thread with CB in the side board). However, after several tests I found that 4 SDT was way too much.

I actually got the idea from Di, so it all stemmed from him. ^.^ The reason I went with 4 is because multiple out weren't so much a bad thing, especially with Turnabout / Rebuild tricks, which Di also pointed out to me. But really you only need 1 out honestly, I'm just crazy. As well I admit, I do miss Preordain, and still have my playset foils, but I need to get some foil tops now ha ha. Thanks again Di for the SDT notice, I will likely continue running them unless something crazy happens.

[Mackan]

There's also the odd scenario when you counter your own spell to block Gaddock Teeg or chump a goyf. Not that it should be included for those reasons... just saying.

[TiMeWaLk]

@feline

When running 4 SDT, you can have troubles with hitting your lands since SDT + Brainstorm without fetch does not dig much for example. At least, it is what I observed back then, and I went on testing to figure out that 1 or 2 tops in the entire deck was actually the best for me. Did you experience such problems?

[Di]

There's also the odd scenario when you counter your own spell to block Gaddock Teeg or chump a goyf. Not that it should be included for those reasons... just saying.


On the other side for Swan Song though, I would really like to use it on my own spells and blow someone out by blocking a Gaddock Teeg or Tarmogoyf or something. That will be fun.

Really? I said this two hours ago.



Now that I came again on this thread, I am curious how the testing of Sensei's divining top (SDT) went for you. If I remember correctly, you were discussing the inclusion of SDT instead of Mediate. I saw that feline ran also a list with 4 SDT (which I proposed on the old thread with CB in the side board). However, after several tests I found that 4 SDT was way too much.

I've had them in the deck since February, although I haven't had a chance to play a large Legacy event in the time. So I pitched them to feline who I knew would, and she did well with them. They're incredible here, especially since a high portion of the metagame is leaning closer towards discard and midrange strategies. Although I disagreed with a number of slots from her list that placed with them (namely four tops), it demonstrated that the card was really good. Personally, I'm running 3 SDT and 2 Preordain. Cutting Preordain entirely is a mistake because it still enables solid sculpting on turn one, without being overly reliant on something people might hate ala Revoker or Needle in for. And running more than three SDT convolutes draws too much; the times when you could abuse multiples are typically late in a combo, and you never want to sit around with more than one pre-combo. It's different for a dedicated deck like CounterTop, but not for this. You can't afford to waste draws or Top activations seeing multiples, so that 4th is a liability to me.

[TiMeWaLk]

Thanks for the feedback. It seems in agreement with what I experienced when I was running 4 of them. What happened to the Meditates? Are they completely gone for you?

[Di]

Thanks for the feedback. It seems in agreement with what I experienced when I was running 4 of them. What happened to the Meditates? Are they completely gone for you?

I cut Meditate completely once I went all-in with Top and haven't looked back. Haven't missed it at all.

[clavio]

I cut Meditate completely once I went all-in with Top and haven't looked back. Haven't missed it at all.

Any chance you could post a current list?

[Di]

I'm likely going to play something very close to this at the next SCG Invitational:

4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
3 Turnabout
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Cunning Wish
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm

6 Fetchlands
12 Island

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Intuition
1 Turnabout
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pact of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
2 Wipe Away
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1/0 Snap
1/2 Flex slot

MD: I still won't cut the maindeck BSZ. It's proven invaluable to me. A win condition that is highly useful post-Spiral is too good. Unless it's a severe issue, I won't ever run a md bounce spell. It's a waste of a slot imo as it's far too narrow. Running a card drawer in it's place will be better at least 75% of the time. Note that this is a bit different of a case than the BSZ (which is poor pre-combo) because the card serves such a different, yet diverse function.

SB: The Snap teeters in and out depending on how badly I want a second flex slot and how much I care about bouncing creatures. Typically, the two Wipe Away and Echoing Truth handle that fine, but I'd probably keep the Snap if Thalia finds its way into more decks. The flex is currently occupied by Spell Pierce, but could easily be any of the cards I mentioned in an above post regarding Swan Song. I've considered cutting Surgicals completely given graveyard decks are rather slim, but they're weak matchups so I still feel comfortable with them. They could become Grafdigger's Cage, although I generally feel a single SE will be enough of a hit to win the game for you, and they're somewhat useful in other matchups.

[feline]

Yea, I'm already looking at going to 3 tops and squeezing in 2-3 preordains, I miss preordain. I've also found that 1 main 1 side pact has been usually fine, so I've since cut the 3rd pact and brought in a 3rd grafdigger's cage. There's "just enough" match ups to still warrant the cages, since they help against GY as well as random stuff like Natural Order / Green Sun's Zenith.

[Ralf]

Not only SDT fights pretty well against discard but also it randomly wins games from time to time by being able to storm with only 2 tops in play and a lot of mana.

Interestingly this situation is not really hard to achieve and can save a huge amount of concentration during a tournament
-> 20 mana in pool, I draw with my top, cast the top, re-draw again 18 times, BF.

It is sometimes a much more straight forward way to steal a game, without even using time spiral.

http://www.happymtg.com/decks/search/Deck.tournament_id:T019325

278 players 08/31/2013.
High tide finished 13th (column 6). Interesting list but I think Lightning Helix is in fact fire//ice :D

[topef27]

Interesting list but I think Lightning Helix is in fact fire//ice :D

Actually I bet it is Time Spiral. I google image searched "Japanese Time Spiral" and all the characters are the same except the first.

[foals]

Guess SDT makes sense, thanks for the idea. And Past in Flames is highly interesting… so:

Maybe it's too fragile or “win more” but i had the idea to mix
Sensei's (for "instant" draw by tap)
Personal Tutor (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/po/65.jpg) ( plus: works with Time Spiral itself as it's no target for Merchant Scroll as combo piece fetch – maybe 1off?, can transform into random instant via Merchant Scroll)
and Past in Flames (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/isd/155.jpg) (a resolved Past in Flames is insane, doubles up everything but makes following spirals worse; fetchable with Personal Tutor).

(Yes, splash opens up to wasteland)

Comments?

Regards,
foals

[HammafistRoob]

I haven't played a lot of Tide, but I've played a billion games with SDT. Every fetch you add to the deck just makes Top A LOT better.. Sure there's the age-old Stifle argument, but adding two more fetches doesn't hurt that much. I would definitely play 8-9 fetches with Tops in any deck.

[Cave]

Yo! Back to the thread after a few months stop. Had been busy getting graduated :D
I'll be finally working in november so I'm considering buying my first candelabra soon!

On SDT: I have tested one MD and it works perfectly fine. I don't really know if I want more. Seeing one while comboing and go "top-> see three -> draw cantrip -> cantrip into top -> cast top -> repeat" is pretty strong, although I don't think i want to have any top in my hand pre-combo: preordain looks so better as it only costs one mana thus allowing you to go off faster against threatening short range decks, plus it lets you more options to pitch FoW. Dunno, maybe I want two just for the cheap double top storm trick. I'll test some more.

Btw, planning to attend a big tournament in Milan next october and probably bringing something like this:



12 Island
6 Fetch

4 Tide
4 Turnabout
4 Spiral

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
2 Meditate
1 Sdt

4 Fow
3 Flusterstorm
1 Pact

4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
-----
1 Brain Freeze
1 USZ
1 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Surgical extraction
2 Grafdigger
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Hurkyl's Recall


I don't know, perhaps considering wipe away maindeck is good if I can predict there'll be a lot of counterbalances around. We'll see how it's gonna works.
Greeting from eu.

[ScatmanX]

Just wanted to tell that played a PiF version on a little 8 man.
The list felt incredibly good:
9 Island
8 Fetches
1 Volcanic Island

4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation

4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
1 Past in Flames

4 Turnabout

Sideboard:
1 Brainfreeze
1 Blue Sun's Zenith

1 Snap
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Wipe Away
1 Hurkyls Recall

2 Spell Pierce
1 Pact of Negation
1 Defense Grid
2 Mystic Remora (didn't have the other Grids)

1 Surgical Extraction
2 Graffdiggers Cage

I think a 2nd Intuition MB should be there somewhere, but it worked nicely this way.
Small Report:
R1 - Goblins RW
G1 - He's on the play, and lead with Port ->Vial. I FoW thinking that he might be color screwed, but T2 he plays Thalia. I cantrip T1, T2, T3, T4, and go off T5 with Tide -> Turnabout -> Time Spiral. After 2 cantrips I find Intuition, and win grabbing 2x Turnabout + PiF.
G2 - He leads with Vial, and Vial T2. in My 3rd turn I could have Tide>Turn>Spiral, but decided to wait another turn, with FoW in hand. He topdecks a Thalia, plays caverns and Piledriver, and Vial Chieftain. I die next turn.
G3 - I go off protected T4. kill with PiF again.

R2 - Uwr control
G1 - Is quite long. I Scroll for Pact, Scroll for Fow, FoW a Clique, Scroll for another FoW, turnabout him eot, that eats a Pierce, and go off double protected with 5 lands into play. Pif makes the win quick.
G2 - After I FoW a Clique, and re ReBs a Mystic Remora, I try to go off protected by Pact + FoW, but a Flusterstorm makes me 2 mana shy from resolving Time Spiral.
G3 - I play Top T1, and find land, FoW and Grid on top, with Fluster in hand. T3 I cast Grid, he Pierces, I fluster, and it sticks. I manage to only go off 3 turns later, with a protection spell due to him having some inslands untapped, but makes it that he does not have 6 mana for 2xFoW. After a couple of cantrips I have loads of mana and 2x Top, that gives me enough storm for Brainfreeze.

R3 - Belcher
G1 - I keep double FoW, and have to use both to not lose. He is left with Led only. I have a Fluster and Time Spiral only, and a Top. 4 turns later I have 6 lands into play, and decide is safer to go for it. I draw 3x Tide, Turnabout, FoW, Fluster, Ponder. Ponder ->Shuffle, draw Ponder, Ponder->Shuffle draw land. Top finds a Scroll, and I win (Play I all mana I have, Scroll->Intuition for Turnabout, Turnabout, PiF, Cast what he gives me, cantrip, cantrip, turnabout, turnabout, get a ridicously amount of mana Scroll for whatever, Intuition for whatever, and win). Islands tapped for 7 this turn =D
G2 - Kept 2 Fow again, and put a T2 Mystic remora into play, that on the course of 2 turns drew me 7 cards! =D Double FoW managed to stop him,Then go off with a top and 4 lands into play, but 3 Tides resolved and a Turnabout. Had all that jazz even after 2x FoW. After a couple of cantrips I show him PiF, and he conceedes.

I loved how PiF makes the combo faster. We don't have to chain cantrip after cantrip to go for the kill. You just need to find an Intuition, then is a sure kill after that. Top helped in that matter too allowing me to Brainfreeze way faster one game.
All in all, whink I'll be playing this version again.

[Cave]

Did you consider 1x Epic Experiment?

You play with red, you play without candelabras: I think resolving one big e.exp. would allow you to USZ kill more frequently. Also it's extremely fun :laugh:

[Final Fortune]

It's sacreligious, but have other people considered removing Force of Wills for Swan Song in the deck in order to better maintain parody vs Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach or cutting a Force of Will for 5 1cc counter spells MD? I really feel the card helps us the most in aggro-control and control match ups where we don't have a Red Elemental Blast equivalent other than Pact of Negation, which isn't that great when decks are running combinations of Force of Will and Inquisition of Kozilek, Force of Will, Daze and Hymn to Tourach or Force of Will and Counterbalance where it only hits one set of disruption but not the other.

[DuKeLiO]

I don't think it is a good move. Cutting Force of Will entirely makes you more vulnerable to cards like Thalia or Ethersworn Cannonist and combo-decks. I think I will play some Swan Songs in my sideboard, but I will continue playing with Force of Will and Flusterstorm in the maindeck. I also tinhk I will add one MisD to my side against Hymn to Tourach.

[Pdingo]

Cutting Force of will(Best Counter in the Format) is the biggest missplay you can do in this deck. Swan Song is cool but not better than FoW and Flusterstorm in this deck.

[Final Fortune]

Cutting Force of will(Best Counter in the Format) is the biggest missplay you can do in this deck. Swan Song is cool but not better than FoW and Flusterstorm in this deck.

I really don't think so, I SB out Force of Will vs every aggro-control and control deck for Swan Swong at the moment.

[Pdingo]

I never side out fow against blue decks. That's just bad.
You wan't to have a free counter.

[Final Fortune]

I never side out fow against blue decks. That's just bad.
You wan't to have a free counter.

I really don't know what you're talking about, the card disadvantage in counter wars leading up until the combo is a serious disadvantage of Force of Will, there's no reason to RFG another card when you could simply spend U and still be able to Turn About or Candleabra of Tawnos off the remaining two untapped lands and Force of Will doesn't really do anything vs Inquisition of Kozilek or Hymn to Tourach in any U/b deck. So far my match ups vs RUG and BUG are noticeably better with Swan Song over Force of Will.

[JDK]

Don't know why I haven't shared this here yet. Though the deck is foil/promo'ed/etc out, the one card that's unique are the High Tides. Each alter took around 3 hours but it was worth it, been using these for about 9 months now:

http://i.imgur.com/217xPPs.jpg

I'd rather prefer the Amy Weber artwork or http://bgaltered.deviantart.com/art/High-Tide-Hokusai-347827297 .

[astormbrewing]

I really don't know what you're talking about, the card disadvantage in counter wars leading up until the combo is a serious disadvantage of Force of Will, there's no reason to RFG another card when you could simply spend U and still be able to Turn About or Candleabra of Tawnos off the remaining two untapped lands and Force of Will doesn't really do anything vs Inquisition of Kozilek or Hymn to Tourach in any U/b deck. So far my match ups vs RUG and BUG are noticeably better with Swan Song over Force of Will.

Against blue-based control, I'd much rather be playing with Flusterstorm and Pact of Negation. You're really only worried about countering their spells during your combo turn (aside from discard spells in UBx decks, in which case Flusterstorm is the nuts), and Force of Will is significantly worse in those games.

[Final Fortune]

Against blue-based control, I'd much rather be playing with Flusterstorm and Pact of Negation. You're really only worried about countering their spells during your combo turn (aside from discard spells in UBx decks, in which case Flusterstorm is the nuts), and Force of Will is significantly worse in those games.

I'd play Pact of Negation if people didn't play discard along with their Force of Wills, unfortunately I don't think Pact of Negation is any more than a 1x in the SB for Cunning Wish at this point, maybe 2x if you want to SB 1 in for Merchant Scroll vs RUG and Miracles - and even vs RUG and Miracles I still think Swan Song is better because it stops Stifle and Counterbalance. That's why I really like Swan Song, it's essentially a Pact of Negation on your combo turn that stops your opponent's other annoying shit turns 1 thru' X.

[Cave]

I'd play Pact of Negation if people didn't play discard along with their Force of Wills, unfortunately I don't think Pact of Negation is any more than a 1x in the SB for Cunning Wish at this point, maybe 2x if you want to SB 1 in for Merchant Scroll vs RUG and Miracles - and even vs RUG and Miracles I still think Swan Song is better because it stops Stifle and Counterbalance. That's why I really like Swan Song, it's essentially a Pact of Negation on your combo turn that stops your opponent's other annoying shit turns 1 thru' X.

Not many decks pack discard AND fow. Esper Stoneblade would, definitely, but not a full set. Esper deathblade doesn't even bother, it has not the right amount of blue card to sustain fows.
The only deck that comes to mind is bugcascade.
But yeah, I mean, sometimes I too feel like pact is sitting in my hand doing nothing; many other times t3 merchant into pact was simply gg. As for me, 1 md copy is worth running but it can definitely be cut; but if you cut it, swan song is not the ideal replacement for sure.

The fact is PoN is invaluable against tempo+counters, while Swan Song is as bad as any non-free counterspell. You know those situations when you're forced to go off t3-t4 and they start dazing and piercing multiple things: in those matches you don't want to tax yourself for 1+1card just to counter their tax 2 counter.

As already pointed out, Swan Song is the perfect replacement for Spell Spierce, which is in our sideboards for the sole reason of hitting CB (mostrly, and then Chalice). I wouldn't run pierce/swan song for any other reason, flusterstorm is better in any other case except against hatebears, where all the three counterspells are equally useless. Swan Song is not a replacement for PoN in my opinion, they serve different purposes.

(on a sidenote, does anyone know any good Island card to run? Atm i'm stuck with 12x zendikar #236 (Meignaud) and i'd like to upgrade to foils soon, but I don't know if I want to go on with these.)

[astormbrewing]

(on a sidenote, does anyone know any good Island card to run? Atm i'm stuck with 12x zendikar #236 (Meignaud) and i'd like to upgrade to foils soon, but I don't know if I want to go on with these.)

Beta (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/be/283.jpg) is always best. If you don't want to spend the money, then Uzra's Saga #335 (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/us/335.jpg) is great (it's a storm, and we're storm!). If you want foil, then Invasion #335 (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/in/335.jpg) is beautiful.

[DuKeLiO]

Against Control I prefer side out some untap effects (2 Candelabras usually), a High Tide and maybe a bouncer to add more counterspells, but I don't like side out Force of Will. Against control is rarely need a untap effect before Time Spiral and I think with 2 Turnabouts and maybe another one via Cunning Wish is enough to combo with six or seven islands.


I have 25 signed Alpha Island (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/al/282.jpg) I use to run on my decks.

[foals]

I love the old island artworks so it's not a question: beta.

But you might have a look at these:
Onslaught #338 (http://magiccards.info/on/en/338.html): The boiling sea.
Tenth Edition (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/368.html): The Storm, which is actually a reprint from Urza's Saga. The foil card is just stunning.
Unhinged (http://magiccards.info/uh/en/137.html). Of course.

[astormbrewing]

Even though I haven't played High Tide since March when I sold it, I'm borrowing my friend's High Tide deck to play this Saturday in a local event. I'll type a brief report after the event.

[Cave]

-It might sound blasphemous but I don't really like alpha and beta islands. I prefer more elaborated artworks.

-Zendikar ones: as I said i'm packing 12x #236 atm. If i don't find anything cooler, think i'll slowly upgrade to foil #236's.
Those are the ones I like best; all the other zendikar full art are almost as good anyway, except #235 (jung park) which is pretty boring.

-I don't like the unglued one to be honest, unhinged is very cool yet foils are very expensive (40+ each I think).

-Guru's are nice but i don't even consider them to be an option since they cost almost as much as a candelabra and i'm still saving for my first one. European Lands Program, same story (the #7 with that island near Venice is incredible): I wouldn't even know where to find those.

-Other islands: I briefly researched around. I really like the invasion one, which has been pointed out by a user 2-3 posts ago, but I also like:

- Avacyn Restored #234
- Ravnica (th first one, not RtR) #291 and #293
- Lorwyn #287 and #288
- Mirage #300

I'll just ponder around these a bit more i guess (pun).

[foals]

[…] European Lands Program, same story (the #7 with that island near Venice is incredible): I wouldn't even know where to find those.[…]

Hey,

you can get them (Euro Lands) here, though they're rather expensive:
Euro Island 2 (https://www.magickartenmarkt.de/Island_2_Euro_Lands.c1p17622.prod)

Then there are the MPS “Magic Premier Shop” Promos (Japanese):
e.g. MPS Island5 (https://www.magickartenmarkt.de/Island_5_Magic_Premiere_Shop_Promos.c1p19681.prod)

And the “APAC” Lands (Asia Pacific):
e.g. APAC island 1 (https://www.magickartenmarkt.de/Island_1_APAC_Lands.c1p19334.prod)

The Guru Island, starting from 165€:
GURU (https://www.magickartenmarkt.de/Island_Guru_Lands.c1p18193.prod)

The “ALP” (arena league promo) lands including a foil alpha artwork (hot!):
ALP foil (https://www.magickartenmarkt.de/Island_5_Arena_League_Promos.c1p18234.prod)

a foil misprint without an edition symbol starting from 30€:
Misprint (https://www.magickartenmarkt.de/Island_Misprints.c1p257590.prod)

Simplified Chinese Alternate Art Cards:
e.g. Island 2 (https://www.magickartenmarkt.de/Island_2_Simplified_Chinese_Alternate_Art_Cards.c1p257603.prod)

All to be found here:
MCM search island page1 (https://www.magickartenmarkt.de/?mainPage=showSearchResult&searchFor=island&resultsPage=1)

This shall not be advertisement, it's just easier there because MCM has 1 list including ALL islands. Guess there are plenty ways to get them (ebay, scg, …).

[clavio]

It's sacreligious, but have other people considered removing Force of Wills for Swan Song in the deck in order to better maintain parody vs Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach or cutting a Force of Will for 5 1cc counter spells MD? I really feel the card helps us the most in aggro-control and control match ups where we don't have a Red Elemental Blast equivalent other than Pact of Negation, which isn't that great when decks are running combinations of Force of Will and Inquisition of Kozilek, Force of Will, Daze and Hymn to Tourach or Force of Will and Counterbalance where it only hits one set of disruption but not the other.

This is pretty rad. But like DuKeLiO said, you need to be able to counter artifacts and creatures. Losing to death and friggen taxes because I'm holding my dick with swan song when they cast some dumb hate bear seems like a bad time.

[Cave]

Went to european-level event in Milan (I). Last updates inform about 406 players attending.

Went 3w-1d-2l, with that draw being unintentional. I had sloppy score but I could aim for top32. However, my head was aching for I had too much party last night so I decided to call it a good-night-guys :laugh:

The deck is really solid even without dem 250$ untappers, and the average european player is basically unprepared for the matchup.

Many midrange, really few controls, quite a lot more of High Tides than I imagined; I believe there is one spanish high tide pilot in particular, he is fighting for top8 atm.

The list I brought is pretty much the same i've already posted, except I swapped preordain #4 for a top, and I've been really satisfied with it.

Greetings.
Cave

[Seraph2k]

(on a sidenote, does anyone know any good Island card to run? Atm i'm stuck with 12x zendikar #236 (Meignaud) and i'd like to upgrade to foils soon, but I don't know if I want to go on with these.)

I took my High Tide deck with me to the GP Straßbourg with german fbb Islands of Mark Poole. Amazing picture, which he changed for me to 12 Islands with birds of paradise ;)
He did a great job and the manabase looks so amazing!

[astormbrewing]

Went to a local tournament and went 1-2-1. It just wasn't my day.

Here is the list I played:
4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
3 Turnabout
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
1 Meditate
1 Intuition
1 Blue Sun's Zenith

4 Merchant Scroll
4 Time Spiral
4 Ponder
3 Preordain

3 Candelabra of Tawnos

3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
12 Island

Sideboard:
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Intuition
1 Turnabout
1 Flusterstorm
1 Rebuild
1 Snap
1 Wipe Away
1 Pact of Negation
3 Mystic Remora
3 Surgical Extraction

I originally had 1 Gigadrowse, 2 Wipe Away, and 2 Pact of Negation in my sideboard, but I saw TWO Pox players and a Solidarity player when scouting the room, so I picked up 3 Mystic Remoras real quick.

Round 1 vs Shardless BUG
Game 1: Loss
I kept a 1 land hand and never found a 2nd land, despite a couple Ponders and a Brainstorm.
Game 2: Win
I actually cast 2 Time Spirals and fizzled, but I landed a Mystic Remora and was able to refill my hand and draw my library and still win.
Game 3: Loss
I don't remember what happened, but I just couldn't find enough gas in time.

Round 2 vs Leyline/Helm
Note: This was a strange UWB Leyline of the Void/Helm of Obedience deck, that didn't even run Rest in Peace.
Game 1: Loss
T0 Leyline of the Void, which sucked since I had to dig A LOT to find anything. I ended up dying to the combo before I had everything.
Game 2: Loss
Chalice of the Void on 1 and 3 and I couldn't find a Force of Will.

Round 3 vs Budget Elves
Note: This was an 8 year old, and her deck was very "play Elves and bash face."
Game 1: Win
She played some Elves and I played a lot of spells, including a lethal Blue Sun's Zenith.
Game 2: Loss
A turn 2 Thorn of Amethyst and turn 3 Choke, along with a lot of Elves, killed me rather quickly.
Game 3: Win
Repeat of game 1.

Round 4 vs Solidarity
Note: The actual most fun round of Magic I've ever played.
Game 1: Loss
I tried to go off twice, but was stopped by Flusterstorm each time. Eventually he kills me in response to activating Candelabra of Tawnos.
Game 2: Win
Early in the game I Surgically Extracted his Cunning Wishes, but he made a comment that made me believe he still had Brain Freeze in his deck. He let me resolve a Meditate, which drew me 2 Mystic Remoras. He then let me drop the Mystic Remoras with 7 lands in play, since he figured he'd wait until I couldn't pay for cumulative upkeep. Unfortunately for him, I paid on the next turn (2 mana total) then proceeded to combo. I tried to cast a Time Spiral, which resulted in a lot of spells in response. Eventually I had about 20 cards in hand thanks to the Remoras, and I believe 4 High Tides had been played, and the storm count was over 30. I knew he had a Flusterstorm in hand, but I had 2 Turnabouts, so I decided to go for Cunning Wish for Brain Freeze and Cunning Wish for Blue Sun's Zenith, since I could pay for any Flusterstorm. That's exactly what happened, and I won the game with about 7 spells on the stack (my Time Spiral, my 2nd Surgical Extraction, a couple Force of Wills, and a couple Turnabouts).

While the last round was a draw, if either of us had won, the winner would make top 8. I didn't feel like he'd concede to me, and frankly, I needed to go home, so I gave him the win and he made top 8.

Mystic Remora definitely won me some games, and I highly recommend it IF your meta calls for it. I was also actually happy with the mainboard Meditate, which I didn't expect to be.

[203995014]

What is Mystic Remora's purpose in the sideboard? Is it just something you side in for cards that are going to be useless?

[astormbrewing]

What is Mystic Remora's purpose in the sideboard? Is it just something you side in for cards that are going to be useless?

It helps against discard so you can refill your hand. Additionally, if you're facing a deck where you may have counter-wars, it helps you either win the war or stock up to retry if you lose. When I saw 2 Pox players and a Solidarity player, and there were only 14 players total, it seemed really good.

I believe against Shardless BUG I took out 1 Intuition 1 Meditate and 1 High Tide (in case he had Surgical Extraction).

[elijah]

Hello, all. I registered for these boards because I've been brewing this all summer and this thread has been a large help. Any input would be appreciated as I've been testing this deck in a vacuum against some proxied up decks from some SCG Opens. Anyways, here's my list.

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
1 Cryptic Command
4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
2 Turnabout
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Meditate
12 Islands
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:
1 Brain Freeze
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
2 Pact of Negation
2 Flusterstorm
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Rebuild
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Gigadrowse
1 Wipe Away

And then there are two flex slots in the sideboard where I'm torn between putting

2 Grafdigger's Cages (for Dredge/Reanimator/GSZ heavy metas)

1 Wipe Away
1 Ravenous Trap (Trap is way to slow for Dredge with a Cunning Wish and is really difficult to trigger against Reanimator, but the uncounterable bounce you can Scroll for against the current Show & Tell meta is gold, which is my current list. It also improves the CounterTop match-up as well)

2 Mystic Remoras (which is good against combo/discard/counter)

I find I side out the Cryptic against Combo decks, but since the third Turnabout sometimes ends up being a Fog anyway, I find the versatility totally worth taking out Turnabout for the card. All of it's modes are pretty solid against decks with either creatures or counterspells, which is nice.

I like the Gitaxian Probes instead of other cards I was brewing with because it lets me know if I need to find some protection before firing off or not and it cantrips, helping fizzles, and ups the storm count for two life. Definitely have to watch how much life this sucks out of you if you're facing decks that run 'Bolts.

I went down to 5 fetchlands after realizing that getting Stifled will straight up lose you games sometimes, but shutting off Brainstorm is absolutely awful.

I also found Snap absolutely awful against decks with Thalia and Gaddock Teeg. I would gladly pay :1: to kill a Thalia or :0: for Teeg right before Spiraling. Against Thalia, it costs :1::u: for High Tide, then :2::u: for Snap. You're tapping 4 lands (2 for High Tide, 2 for Snap) vs. 2 (1 for Slaughter Pact, 1 for High Tide, etc.) I could be wrong, though, and the land untapping might just be strong enough, but if they're playing Aether Vial, they might just Vial it back after being Snapped in unless they've already used it.

[esthoril]

You're tapping 4 lands (2 for High Tide, 2 for Snap) vs. 2 (1 for Slaughter Pact, 1 for High Tide, etc.) I could be wrong, though
Basic math says you are wrong.

4 lands in play
- tap 2 for high tide, tap another 2 for snap, bounce thalia, untap two and tap them again -> 5 mana
- tap 1 for slaughter pact, tap another 1 for high tide, tap remaining two -> 4 mana

When they don't have a hatebear anymore, snap still helps you generate mana midcombo by bouncing one of their other creatures. Slaughter pact is dead midcombo. It also doesn't pitch to force. Snap does. When you fizzle midcombo, you also die to your pact next upkeep. Merchant scroll doesn't find pact so you can't really side it in.

Thalia on it's own isn't that much of a problem and decks with Teeg don't play vial.

Snap 5 - Slaughter pact 0. Don't play it.

Apart from that, get rid of the cryptic command! A 4 mana counter or bounce that doesn't help with the combo is just plain awful. Another turnabout will be much more useful and will make sure you fizzle a lot less. It also doesn't help protecting your combo at 4 mana. Any successful list plays 7 or 8 counters. You play only 6.

You're not going down to 5 fetch. You're going down to 17 land overall. 17 being too little for a deck that really needs to hit its first 4 landdrops.

[elijah]

Basic math says you are wrong.

4 lands in play
- tap 2 for high tide, tap another 2 for snap, bounce thalia, untap two and tap them again -> 5 mana
- tap 1 for slaughter pact, tap another 1 for high tide, tap remaining two -> 4 mana

When they don't have a hatebear anymore, snap still helps you generate mana midcombo by bouncing one of their other creatures. Slaughter pact is dead midcombo. It also doesn't pitch to force. Snap does. When you fizzle midcombo, you also die to your pact next upkeep. Merchant scroll doesn't find pact so you can't really side it in.

Thalia on it's own isn't that much of a problem and decks with Teeg don't play vial.

Snap 5 - Slaughter pact 0. Don't play it.

Apart from that, get rid of the cryptic command! A 4 mana counter or bounce that doesn't help with the combo is just plain awful. Another turnabout will be much more useful and will make sure you fizzle a lot less. It also doesn't help protecting your combo at 4 mana. Any successful list plays 7 or 8 counters. You play only 6.

You're not going down to 5 fetch. You're going down to 17 land overall. 17 being too little for a deck that really needs to hit its first 4 landdrops.

Thank you for the critique. You present too many valid points to refute. This is the kind of criticism I was looking for, because I'm the only person who plays this deck amongst my local meta.

[203995014]

2 Flusterstorm
1 Cryptic Command

I think the one-of Cryptic Command should just be another Flusterstorm because it's just overall better. Turnabout or Flusterstorm are usually going to be better than Cryptic Command. For situations where Flusterstorm wouldn't help, Force of Will exists.



Sideboard
2 Pact of Negation
1x Gigadrowse
I think Pact of Negation should only be a one-of. When you side out the High Tide, you probably should side in Flusterstorm instead. Pact of Negation I found it better as an "oh crap" button that you can wish for with Cunning Wish.

I feel like Gigadrowse is pointless and you would usually prefer Turnabout. Tap down lands, creatures, or whatever, Turnabout not only does that but doubles as something that UNTAPS lands.



1 Ravenous Trap (Trap is way to slow for Dredge with a Cunning Wish and is really difficult to trigger against Reanimator, but the uncounterable bounce you can Scroll for against the current Show & Tell meta is gold, which is my current list. It also improves the CounterTop match-up as well)

2 Mystic Remoras (which is good against combo/discard/counter)


You probably should have a single Ravenous Trap in the wishboard because dredge is a pretty bad matchup. You probably also should have Grafdigger's Cage for the same reason. Flusterstorms are pretty good at stopping discard spells

[TiMeWaLk]

@203995014

Pact of Negation is very far from your description. Against UGr Delver for example, the card just shine because you can counter their hard counters while saving mana for daze or spell pierce. There are many lists which run more than 1 in the SB for this reason. One of the reason NOT to run several Pact is to run something else instead, like defense grid.

Ravenous Trap is too narrow to deserve a sideboard slot if your metagame is not infested by Dredge, which is quite common since the print of Deathrite Shaman.

[Mackan]

If you have the luxury to resolve cunning wish versus dredge you are probably better of finding high tide and go off instead. it's turn 1-2 that are problematic and I recommend tormod's crypt over ravenous trap. Grafdigger's cage is worse tempo but it's also nice versus maverick and elves. If you run 3 crypts you can go scroll->intuition and have them at the ready at the same time as that trap. Also note that a good dredgeplayer can dodge ravenous trap with therapy, but not so easily tormod's crypt. If your meta is infested with dredge then trap can be good to diversify your hate, but I would add that on top of some of the others.

[Isaac]

Going to play in a tourney a week from this Saturday running this deck.

[elijah]

Having 2 copies of Turnabout, I've never had a real problem finding them with 7 extra virtual copies of the card (Scroll/Wish) and the Cryptic Command while terrible in some match-ups for being outright too slow, is a bomb. I'm trying it in the sideboard, but it replaced three different cards I'd been trying in the 'board: Counterspell, Remand, and Repeal. It's not something to really Wish for, but having so much versatility is something I'm going to brew with until I'm proven that's it's just a stone awful card in the 75. I did replace it for a Flusterstorm in the main, which I should have done quite a while ago.

[astormbrewing]

it replaced three different cards I'd been trying in the 'board: Counterspell, Remand, and Repeal.

Honestly, those are some terrible card choices for a High Tide sideboard, so the bar is pretty low. Cryptic Command is still bad.

[Cave]

Honestly, those are some terrible card choices for a High Tide sideboard, so the bar is pretty low. Cryptic Command is still bad.

Counterspell is bad because you don't need to counter sorcery speed threats. Oh well in fact you might need it, but you won't usually get there, because if I might recall it, wish + counterspell means 5 mana, and this will not usually happen. If you are storming and need to wish for counter, pact of negation and flusterstorm are way superior options.

Remand is bad because you don't actually need to cantrip in a deck with 1 meditate 1 USZ and 12 cantrips. Plus it doesn't get the job done. Their islands are also gonna tap for two when you're comboing, this means if you remand their snare-pierce-swan song, then actually they'd be casting it again. And remanding your own spells might just cost so much mana.

Repeal is good if you also have candelabra but again, there are just much, much better options: Capsize lets you infinite if you have a candelabra and 12 mana down the table, which is extremely good because if you can't finish it up you still have a "bounce-all-you-have-and-buy-time-plan"; Echoing truth helps agains those pesky tokens and multiple leylines and is a generally efficent bouncer; snap would work as a bounce+semi-turnabout; Wipe away is the best choice because it's hardly answerable.

Cryptic command is just too slow.

[kohai]

Hi all,

I'm still new to the deck, and this forum. But, I've been tinkering with this deck online and I've been trying something a little different.

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
3 Cunning Wish
3 Intuition
4 Merchant Scroll

4 Force of Will
1 Swan Song
2 Flusterstorm

4 High Tide
3 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Past in Flames
1 Banefire

9 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
2 Misty Rainforest


SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Swan Song
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
SB: 2 Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 Mystic Remora
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Wipe Away

For a long time, I didn't have Candels and the Intuition-->Past In Flames-->Banefire essentially skipped to the end of the whole sequence. I'm not sure if it's actually better, but it's pretty smooth. The Candels make it silly easy. I doesn't rely on the Banefire, but just getting to 20 something and then just blasting is pretty satisfying.

I've got Empty the Warrens in the sideboard, for the random chance it's needed. I've Brainfreezed and Emptied, but going all the way up to BSZ is...somehow intimidating.

Does anyone have any tips to keep better track of Storm, High Tides, Mana Floating, etc? I was using D6's and then I just switched to pen and paper.

And in response to the lands questions from earlier, I play http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=79074
It's Kamigawa. What's not to love?

I just want as much feedback as possible.

Have a great time!

[topef27]

Does anyone have any tips to keep better track of Storm, High Tides, Mana Floating, etc? I was using D6's and then I just switched to pen and paper.


When I start my combo turn, I will bring out a piece of paper labeled with three columns: "Islands Produce", "Mana Floating", and "Storm Count". Then I would just use dice under each heading so both players knew what the current status was. It takes a bit of muscle memory to turn a die or two after everything you do, but it gets pretty quick once you're used to it. I have had a lot of players and judges tell me how much they appreciated me keeping track thoroughly and visibly, so I just thought I would share.
Also, Banefire-ing someone to death does sound really fun.

[ScatmanX]

Does anyone have any tips to keep better track of Storm, High Tides, Mana Floating, etc? I was using D6's and then I just switched to pen and paper.
Put a dice on top of 1 of your islands to show how much mana it produces, that way you know the number of High Tides cast.
I also use pen and paper. Write down storm/Tide/mana floating before Spiral. Mid combo counting storm is kind off pointless. When you want to know it, just add the number of cards on your grave to the storm before spiral. To keep track of the mana I say it out loud before casting any spell, and say how much is floating after it resolves. Not that hard to do once you get the hang of it.
If you have to cast another spiral, write down the Storm/tide/mana floating again.
If you work with Snap, count them as 2 spells. Same as spells removed with Snapcaster or Past in Flames.

Using dice, imo, is way worse. You just loose too much time trying to find those numbers.
There's also an app for that, like there is for pretty much anything.

[astormbrewing]

Mid combo counting storm is kind off pointless.

I disagree with this, especially since some decks (BUG and Young Pyro) are packing Flusterstorm. They'll wait to use it until you're choked on mana, and that could be several spells in.

Using pen and paper for everything is quite tedious. I use a D20 spindown for storm (since it's easy to find the next number) and a D6 for keeping track of how much each Island produces. For mana, I announce it verbally and write it quickly on a sheet of paper (because keeping track of mana is crucial, especially since it's the hardest thing to figure out if there's a mistake (as a judge, I know this)). This combination of dice and paper works very well.

Of course, you could always ask your opponent to keep track of storm and mana for you if they're playing a non-interactive deck.

[ScatmanX]

I disagree with this, especially since some decks (BUG and Young Pyro) are packing Flusterstorm. They'll wait to use it until you're choked on mana, and that could be several spells in.
You're right.
The deal is that I don't put the cards in my grave. I lightly overlap the resolved one in front of my lands (no one ever complayned), so figuring out the storm count is pretty easy: You just have to look at my board. But you have a point.

[elijah]

You're right.
The deal is that I don't put the cards in my grave. I lightly overlap the resolved one in front of my lands (no one ever complayned), so figuring out the storm count is pretty easy: You just have to look at my board. But you have a point.

This becomes a problem after you've Time Spiraled.

[203995014]

If someone were to make a budget high tide deck (AKA candelabra-less high tide), would it be better to have Palinchron or Cloud of Faeries as an alternative to candles?

I found these to be true about both but I could be wrong:

Advantages of Cloud of Faeries:
It can be used Pre-Time Spiral
It is cheap
This will barely matter but you can cycle it
Again this will barely matter but if you really need to, you can summon it as a chump blocker

Advantages of Palinchron:
Creates an Infinite Mana and Infinite Storm combo.
Isn't a crap untap effect post-time spiral unlike Cloud of Faeries

What do you think?

[entreri_fans]

If someone were to make a budget high tide deck (AKA candelabra-less high tide), would it be better to have Palinchron or Cloud of Faeries as an alternative to high tide?

I found these to be true about both but I could be wrong:

Advantages of Cloud of Faeries:
It can be used Pre-Time Spiral
It is cheap
This will barely matter but you can cycle it
Again this will barely matter but if you really need to, you can summon it as a chump blocker

Advantages of Palinchron:
Creates an Infinite Mana and Infinite Storm combo.
Isn't a crap untap effect post-time spiral unlike Cloud of Faeries

What do you think?

Hi, in my opinion, cloud of faeries is better, mainly because it's cheap in mana cost and serves as a pseudo draw effect. sometimes you really need that "draw 1 card" if you are unlucky post-Time Spiral or you just fizzle.

besides, palinchron is a dead card pre-combo, which I dislike. what's more, when you are able to create infinite mana with palinchron, meaning each of your island can already produce 3-4 mana at that time, you will already have easily won at that time. so that is a little win-more.

in my opinion, you can just try german list if you want to build candel-less High Tide. It's really good.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11205&iddeck=81823

[.Ix]

I've been testing the German list for a while as well. It's very solid.

[TiMeWaLk]

Cloud of Faeries is way better than Palinchron (a card which should not even be considered).

I used them, thanks to the advices of esthoril, when I was not having Candelabras and they were really good. The chump block & cycle abilities are more relevant than you think.

[Cave]

The german list is super solid. Kinda one-trick-pony but really, it never misses a turn-4 combo.

Faeries are also good if you don't have Candelabras. Many guys in eu are placing themselves top8 while packing 2-3. I've been testing them myself and all I can say is i love to cunning wish for an echoing truth and storm it up with Faeries like a no-brainer.

[203995014]

Thanks for all your guy's insight. I will definitely be sticking to Cloud of Faeries.

[astormbrewing]

A thought: tweak the German list to add a couple Retraced Image. Extra land drops are insanely good.

[clavio]

Does anyone have any tips to keep better track of Storm, High Tides, Mana Floating, etc? I was using D6's and then I just switched to pen and paper.


I have large (one inch) D6s that I put on my islands to show how much mana they make. I don't count storm until TimeSpiral or a storm spell is played (can't waste time). Pen and paper is best though for storm/mana. Also make sure you have checks for the amount of turns you'll skip from meditate/number of times you'll die due to pact.

[JDK]

A thought: tweak the German list to add a couple Retraced Image. Extra land drops are insanely good.

"tweak"

[Cave]

A thought: tweak the German list to add a couple Retraced Image. Extra land drops are insanely good.

18 Lands
4 Tide
4 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
3 Retraced Image
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition

This was more or less one of the first Time Spiral lists to have some success. It is basically what you say, german list + retraced image (but lacking meditate).

By the way, just for the record, on a recent event in Milan (400+ players attending) an italian guy piloting uncandled spiral tide did at least 9th place while there were many candle decks around.
There is an interview online which i can't find back at the moment, but it was around turn 6 in swiss rounds and he just beat miracles.
In that interview, he speaks about the very Clouds of Faeries: he plays three of them and has decided to do so because he says they are much more versatile than candelabras, they can untap, chumpblock and they can cantrip if needed, which is extremely good. I don't know his deck but I found an 1-month old top8 decklist of him (Michele Giua) and he likes to play a lot of meditates as I do. I did 3-1-2 drop at the same event with the German list, leaving the tournament because I was not feeling so well :)

Sadly, Top3-8 lists are not around, we just know the two russian guys in the finals were piloting maverick and UR tempo.

[203995014]

This seems to be spawning an interesting discussion, so I'll post my candel-less deck here (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-budget-version-of-the-high-tide/)

People have told me to take out Ravenous Trap but it has been doing quite well for me when I wasn't quite ready to combo off and didn't really feel like getting more trash from those Dredge Players.

I'm also debating with myself on whether the grafdiggers should be Mystic Remora or not (what would I side out for cages anyway?)

[GoldenCid]

If someone were to make a budget high tide deck (AKA candelabra-less high tide), would it be better to have Palinchron or Cloud of Faeries as an alternative to candles?

I found these to be true about both but I could be wrong:

Advantages of Cloud of Faeries:
It can be used Pre-Time Spiral
It is cheap
This will barely matter but you can cycle it
Again this will barely matter but if you really need to, you can summon it as a chump blocker

Advantages of Palinchron:
Creates an Infinite Mana and Infinite Storm combo.
Isn't a crap untap effect post-time spiral unlike Cloud of Faeries

What do you think?

My successfulest list (see many pages above) run 2 cloud of fae and 3 turnabouts.

[elijah]

This seems to be spawning an interesting discussion, so I'll post my candel-less deck here (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-budget-version-of-the-high-tide/)

People have told me to take out Ravenous Trap but it has been doing quite well for me when I wasn't quite ready to combo off and didn't really feel like getting more trash from those Dredge Players.

I'm also debating with myself on whether the grafdiggers should be Mystic Remora or not (what would I side out for cages anyway?)

I think you side out a High Tide and a Preordain. Ponder and Brainstorm are just too powerful to have less than four of them and and pretty much anything else in the deck is cemented in as your combo pieces, tutors, or counterspells.

My problem is that I don't know how to play against Dredge at all, so I can't give the most expert advice on how to play against them. I'm sure that they'll bring in hate vs. the Cages, which is why bringing into the maindeck a Surgical Extraction (if you have two) is probably a smart idea.

I think if the Ravenous Trap has been doing strongly enough against Dredge that you're more on the side of taking them out vs. keeping them in, try it with the switch. Mystics are much better against non-creature-centric metas, counterspell wars, and heavy discard; but the Cages give you a couple of extra turns against both Dredge, Reanimator, and Green Sun Zenith decks.

[flrn]

This seems to be spawning an interesting discussion, so I'll post my candel-less deck here (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-budget-version-of-the-high-tide/)

People have told me to take out Ravenous Trap but it has been doing quite well for me when I wasn't quite ready to combo off and didn't really feel like getting more trash from those Dredge Players.

I'm also debating with myself on whether the grafdiggers should be Mystic Remora or not (what would I side out for cages anyway?)

You can board out Force of Will.

[.Ix]

I was hoping the Tide deck that top 8'd at Ovino would have no candelabras, and it turns out to be even cooler than I expected.

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11877&iddeck=86948

4 Misty Rainforest
14 Island
3 Cloud of Faeries
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
4 Brainstorm
2 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish


4 High Tide
3 Turnabout
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Time Spiral
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Brain Freeze
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
2 Pact of Negation
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Meditate
1 Intuition
1 Turnabout
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Snap


I haven't tested it yet but it looks really interesting.

[elijah]

So I've been reworking the deck to fit Cloud of Faeries in because I want to go to SCG Indianapolis, and don't have $900 for the Candels. Here's my list, tell me what you think.

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
4 High Tide
3 Cloud of Faeries
4 Time Spiral
2 Turnabout
1 Medidate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Snap
1 Swan Song
3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
12 Island

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Wipe Away
2 Pact of Negation
1 Rebuild
1 Flusterstorm
1 Meditate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Snap

I found it actually interesting that being able to wish for a Snap to bounce Cloud of Faeries stopped a fizzle when I didn't have enough for a wish into Turnabout.

Pros I've found from playing with Cloud of Faeries vs. Candels:
It pitches to Force of Will
It cycles in a pinch, which at instant speed is really potent.
Chump blocking can buy you a turn

To further expand on chump blocking, since it untaps two lands, you can continue digging for cards with your cantrips, too.

Cons:
Turnabouts are a LOT weaker without Candels.
Vulnerable to removal. It's a huge risk to try and Snap it if they're playing red or white.

I'm still really unsure of what I wanted the Swan Song to be. I debated a maindeck Pact of Negation, but every time I started with it in my hand, I mulliganed to get rid of it. I might try it as a fourth Cloud of Faeries or the fourth Preordain, but as a fourth maindeck one mana counter that isn't conditional like Spell Pierce, it functions fine. It's not something I'd Scroll for, but it is nice to have something that gets Counterbalance, Sneak Attack, and Dream Halls, unlike Flusterstorm. I may try running the Pierce and seeing how it goes, but it's just so tough to have a one-off of something that isn't strong enough to Scroll for in such a tight 75 when you need to stop their spells. In a sticky situation, it can also be Snapped away if they don't have creatures or I couldn't find a Cloud of Faeries. Not that this will happen often, just that it IS a possibility.

[TiMeWaLk]

Hi elijah,

As I said before, I also played Cloud of Faeries in the past and I really liked the card. The "pitch" to force of will ability is really good. It's actually the reason why I regret Cloud the most (in comparison to candle).

About the quantities, I would never play less than 4 Turnabout in the deck. I would recommend to replace one of the weakest card (Snap, cloud) of your main board by the 3rd Turnabout. You'll find a lot of discussions about Meditate or BSZ main board, these are also cards you can consider cutting.

The pact of negation is useful against tempo and control decks usually. If you tested against Jund for example, yeah... it's not going to shine. Without it and some additional cards in your sideboard, I don't think you'll win counter wars against Thresh.

0 Brain Freeze in a candle less version is close to suicide.

[JDK]

0 Brain Freeze in a candle less version is close to suicide.
This is just nonsense.

You've got 3 Cunning Wishes, 4 Merchant Scrolls and a shitload of cantrips to find what you need and there is a reason why the "German" list has already proven to be consistent enough to put up results.

[TiMeWaLk]

If I am not mistaken, the German list you are referring to is playing 1 Brain Freeze in the side board. If you meant something different, you can just explain it.

[elijah]

Hi elijah,

As I said before, I also played Cloud of Faeries in the past and I really liked the card. The "pitch" to force of will ability is really good. It's actually the reason why I regret Cloud the most (in comparison to candle).

About the quantities, I would never play less than 4 Turnabout in the deck. I would recommend to replace one of the weakest card (Snap, cloud) of your main board by the 3rd Turnabout. You'll find a lot of discussions about Meditate or BSZ main board, these are also cards you can consider cutting.

The pact of negation is useful against tempo and control decks usually. If you tested against Jund for example, yeah... it's not going to shine. Without it and some additional cards in your sideboard, I don't think you'll win counter wars against Thresh.

0 Brain Freeze in a candle less version is close to suicide.

I was actually playtesting against Jund, so you may have a point. I'll need to try it against other decks as well, which I'll be doing in the next two weeks; maybe it will change.

Feline Longmore has been doing fine with 1 maindeck, 1 side Turnabout, which I tried. I just liked being able to find a 2nd copy whenever I need to get enough free mana to cast a Force of Will (it happens when I can't afford to lost the card), and it hasn't proven too difficult to find, and with Snap and Cloud of Faeries, it hasn't been a problem at all.

Threshold is a match-up I need to playtest more as a whole and my list may evolve as the date gets closer to the tournament.

While it is harder to get to the absurd amounts of mana that comes from Candel versions, I don't want to be on my back foot game 1 against Show & Tell, which is becoming a larger part of the meta.

Edit: I do have a Brain Freeze in the board, I just forgot to put it in my list. Whoops.

[TiMeWaLk]

Feline Longmore has been doing fine with 1 maindeck, 1 side Turnabout, which I tried. I just liked being able to find a 2nd copy whenever I need to get enough free mana to cast a Force of Will (it happens when I can't afford to lost the card), and it hasn't proven too difficult to find, and with Snap and Cloud of Faeries, it hasn't been a problem at all.

Feline plays 4 Candles and Turnabout is mainly there to untap 2 Candles or more. It is a completely different setup. You'll see that Turnabout is also very important to tap the lands of your opponent, a thing that Cloud cannot do.


While it is harder to get to the absurd amounts of mana that comes from Candel versions, I don't want to be on my back foot game 1 against Show & Tell, which is becoming a larger part of the meta.

Edit: I do have a Brain Freeze in the board, I just forgot to put it in my list. Whoops.

If you can use BSZ to kill, it is perfect. However, it is possible to struggle generating such a large amount of mana without candles. I am not saying you cannot do it, but if I have to run a list without Brain Frezze, it's for sure a list with Candles. But you have it anyway :wink:

[Cave]

This is just nonsense.

You've got 3 Cunning Wishes, 4 Merchant Scrolls and a shitload of cantrips to find what you need and there is a reason why the "German" list has already proven to be consistent enough to put up results.

I've been testing faeries lately, but before that i played the german list for a year or so.

1. You do put a bf in your sideboard, you can't win consistently by usz without 'labras. I found my win ratio to be something like 1/3 usz - 2/3 brain freeze.

2. Feline's list works because she uses her only md turnabout to untap multiple copies of candelabra in order to have tons of mana (you can see that on scg videos). Without candelabras, you shouldn't drop to less than 3 copies md and 1 side. Turnabout is just the best untapper (imho better than candles) because it does what snap+faeries do, just in one card.

[elijah]

Feline plays 4 Candles and Turnabout is mainly there to untap 2 Candles or more. It is a completely different setup. You'll see that Turnabout is also very important to tap the lands of your opponent, a thing that Cloud cannot do.



If you can use BSZ to kill, it is perfect. However, it is possible to struggle generating such a large amount of mana without candles. I am not saying you cannot do it, but if I have to run a list without Brain Frezze, it's for sure a list with Candles. But you have it anyway :wink:

I tried a goldfish all the way through the combo with the 3rd Turnabout. I find myself needed it because the Candel-less version leans more heavily on High Tides and Turnabouts for a lethal USZ, so I took out the Swan Song for it. Thanks for the advice.

[203995014]

I've been testing faeries lately, but before that i played the german list for a year or so.

1. You do put a bf in your sideboard, you can't win consistently by usz without 'labras. I found my win ratio to be something like 1/3 usz - 2/3 brain freeze.


I agree that while it is advisable to have Brain Freeze in the sideboard for candel-less builds, the win ratio between Blue Sun's Zenith and Brain Freeze isn't as bad as you suggest that it is. I have been consistently able to win using Blue Sun's Zenith (about 75%-80% of the time) vs. a variety of decks such as RUG Delver, 12-post, and Pox. Sometimes I will use Brain Freeze to play it safe vs. decks with counters if I know as a fact that they don't have shuffle effects and I don't have much other cards in my hand, but that was about it.

In candelabra builds, it would be advisable to have Brain Freeze in the sideboard anyway.

[TiMeWaLk]

In candelabra builds, it would be advisable to have Brain Freeze in the sideboard anyway.

I have been playing without for quite some time now, and I never lost because I lacked Brain Freeze. My version is a bit special since I play Capsize in the Brain Freeze slot.

[203995014]

I have been playing without for quite some time now, and I never lost because I lacked Brain Freeze. My version is a bit special since I play Capsize in the Brain Freeze slot.

What do you have in your sideboard?

I have:

2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Ravenous Trap
1x Capsize
1x Wipe Away
1x Echoing Truth
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Brain Freeze
1x Turnabout
1x Meditate
1x Intuition
1x Flusterstorm
1x Pact of Negation
1x Rebuild
1x Surgical Extraction

There were a few very random times where I had to rely on brain freeze to win but that was about it.

[TiMeWaLk]

This is what I played recently:

1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
12 Island

4 Time Spiral
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
3 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation
4 Force of Will

2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Sensei's Divining Top

SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 Capsize
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Snap
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Intuition
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Mystic Remora
SB: 1 Swan Song

[JDK]

If I am not mistaken, the German list you are referring to is playing 1 Brain Freeze in the side board. If you meant something different, you can just explain it.

Since you were directly addressing elijah and he had a BF in his SB, I was under the impression you commented his lack of BF in the mainboard, which is completely fine.

[TiMeWaLk]

His list was without Brain Freeze when I commented. He edited it after.

[Cave]

I agree that while it is advisable to have Brain Freeze in the sideboard for candel-less builds, the win ratio between Blue Sun's Zenith and Brain Freeze isn't as bad as you suggest that it is. I have been consistently able to win using Blue Sun's Zenith (about 75%-80% of the time) vs. a variety of decks such as RUG Delver, 12-post, and Pox. Sometimes I will use Brain Freeze to play it safe vs. decks with counters if I know as a fact that they don't have shuffle effects and I don't have much other cards in my hand, but that was about it.

In candelabra builds, it would be advisable to have Brain Freeze in the sideboard anyway.

I don't know, I attended 2 minor events and a big tournament with the deck so far (german list). I highly dislike winning by blue sun's zenith and I do it only if I'm forced to do so because of high chance of having emrakuls in the opponent's deck. I find much much easier to storm it up. In order to kill with blue sun's zenith one might want to free topdeck multiple high tides post-spiral, which is one of the best scenarios I could imagine already.

Meh, I guess it's really a matter of how you perceive and play the deck; we are obviously different in that.

For example, I want to be ready-to-go turn 4 no matter what happens because nowadays I feel legacy is so full of weird plays and bombcards who can turn around the game and give more fuel to the opponent: say, ginger dudes or ginger girls cascading into ancestral vision, fueling more disruption; random confidants which give more edge the more they stay in play, etc.
I find the german list very consistent in winning turn 4; so far i've been cutting the MD pact and a turnabout for two faeries, and the three preordains for three tops (just to play something similar to the Italian list 2-3 posts above) and I'm not really satisfied with it. I don't find it very consistent, tops are good against discard but somewhat limit your ability to dig through the deck.
And I really feel lacking MD pact and MD intuition are big limits in this build.

Just for being complete, here's what i've been testing post-milan

12 Island
6 Fetchlands
4 High Tide
3 Turnabout
2 Cloud of Faeries
4 Time Spiral
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Meditate

1 Brain Freeze
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Gigadrowse
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation
2 Mystic Remora

[feline]

Bombed out at SCGMKE, 5-4. The previous at the MTGdeals open I also only went 3-3. Hoping this less impressive run is over, because SCGSeattle is in 5 days! Hoping for some home town advantage for High Tide SCG attempt #10 on Oct-20th

[TiMeWaLk]

@feline

Good luck! :wink:

@Cave

In the logic of going off turn 4, Meditate is useless. They are incredible post Spiral, that's for sure. It is interesting to see that you comment on the format being "fast", so you want to go off turn 4 (which I agree with), but do not shave the Meditates.

About the 3 Tops instead of 3 Preordain, I am not surprised that you do not like this setup. I played something similar (with Cloud of Faeries and 4 Tops) and it was horrible, mainly because preordains are so much better at finding your land drops (and cost less mana overall).

Pre-spiral, Top and Meditate are similar, in the sense that they protect you from discard spells (BS with Top to hide HT and Spiral is monstruous) and let you see more cards. I guess that, what I am trying to say, is that Tops should replace the Meditates (maybe not completely if you are attached to them). I can elaborate more on that if needed since I actually played with and without candles and also without other untapers than turnabout.

[Cave]

@Cave

In the logic of going off turn 4, Meditate is useless. They are incredible post Spiral, that's for sure. It is interesting to see that you comment on the format being "fast", so you want to go off turn 4 (which I agree with), but do not shave the Meditates.

I don't know about the format being fast; all I know is that the format is resilient. Many times in tournament or in playtest against friends I have wondered why on earth is possible that the guy on the opposite side of the table has fast clock on the table, never missed a land drop, countered plenty of your stuff, and still has 5-7 cards in hand.

On meditates, the German list is designed to go off turn 4 no matter what, and still packs 3+1 of them. I *could* (and will) try without them but me but I don't know, I think I'll feel I have no businness to work with. I've recently lost a tournament match in milan and a playtest match with friends because I was forced to go off without a spiral: so I started comboing, dug 20-25 cards and found no stuff to storm with. Unreal situations where you ponder into three lands, shuffle, draw 1 land, meditate into three more island and a force of will are not uncommon for me.

But yeah, your suggestion is interesting.


About the 3 Tops instead of 3 Preordain, I am not surprised that you do not like this setup. I played something similar (with Cloud of Faeries and 4 Tops) and it was horrible, mainly because preordains are so much better at finding your land drops (and cost less mana overall).

Yep, i'm really missing the preordains.



Pre-spiral, Top and Meditate are similar, in the sense that they protect you from discard spells (BS with Top to hide HT and Spiral is monstruous) and let you see more cards. I guess that, what I am trying to say, is that Tops should replace the Meditates (maybe not completely if you are attached to them). I can elaborate more on that if needed since I actually played with and without candles and also without other untapers than turnabout.

I think i'm taking your list -2 candles + 2 Faes and I'm testing it. Perhaps also gonna drop a preordain for an Intuition. I'll see how it works without meditates since i'm already testing new stuff (Faeries, which I hate btw).

[TiMeWaLk]

@Cave,

About taking my list and doing those changes... I am flattered but I am not sure that you are going to get the same feeling. One of the strength of this list is to be able to combo with 1 cunning wish into Capsize, after 2 Tides (and 4 islands), and win if you have Candle + Top on the board. It is not really conventional, I admit. You can also notice the absence of Brain Freeze since the list is designed to win 1 side board slot and kill no matter what with BSZ. Since you said you like BF a lot, I am not sure you are going to be satisfied. Without Candles you may find Tops a bit expansive post-Spiral. Of course, feel free to try it (but I would try with my list unchanged first to feel the difference).

The thing I am the less satisfied with my list is that Candles are not blue... I am even going to 1 Candle in certain side boarded games (but I still keep one for the capsize kill). On the positive side, Tops are awesome here. I imagine, each time I have a top, if I would have been happier with a Meditate. The answer pre-Spiral is just never.

I like your idea of shaving 1 preordain for 1 intuition :wink: esthoril tried to convince me about this too...

[Cave]

I mean i'm taking your maindeck. For sure i'm still winning by freeze.
Oh and you don't have to be flattered (or, should you? whatever, I don't know :laugh:) it's just that I've been pretty unsatisfied with my pet deck high tide lately and I'm opening myself as many possibilities as I can; your build seems reasonable so...it's just another thing I might try and see if it brings more advantages than weak points.
I just feel there *is* something I can do for the deck to perform better, but I don't know what and i'm trying to figure out.

Intuition is just too good. I don't know how people can play without it.

edit incoming.

[TiMeWaLk]

Yes, intuition is very good and I have one in my side board. However, I was not sure about having one in the main board because it feels clunky post side board from time to time. There are games when you have it in hand and you just don't know if you should cast it at the end of turn on Spiral or not (opening yourself to Surgical Extraction). Maybe this issue is rare enough to forget it.

[elijah]

In the logic of going off turn 4, Meditate is useless. They are incredible post Spiral, that's for sure. It is interesting to see that you comment on the format being "fast", so you want to go off turn 4 (which I agree with), but do not shave the Meditates.

I have actually found myself Wishing or Scrolling into a Meditate a couple of times right before I knew I was about to die. If you absolutely need to go off NOW without all of your combo pieces, I've found it's your best bet. It's much riskier with only 3 lands in play but it IS doable, and if it's my only out to not losing, I'll take it. Meditate is clunky in your opening hand, but I've found it's powerful enough that even if I don't have a Brainstorm, I'm still fine keeping the hand unless it's absolute garbage or I'm playing against a deck with Thoughtseizes.



About the 3 Tops instead of 3 Preordain, I am not surprised that you do not like this setup. I played something similar (with Cloud of Faeries and 4 Tops) and it was horrible, mainly because preordains are so much better at finding your land drops (and cost less mana overall).


I'm not running them, but I can see their merits. When I was playing Counterbalance in Game 1 against Sneak and Show, I played against an opponent who deemed the Top so important he Forced my turn 1 play, which slows them down. I get this is probably more of an outlier than anything, but it does occur.

Preordains do filter, similar to the Top, but you're probably using the draw spells in conjunction with the Top to get rid of the cards you don't want to see because you can't run more fetchlands at the risk of getting Stifled more often. They allow you to see the extra card which could be better than ripping a blind card, you can do it at instant speed, and whenever you need to draw a card post Spiral, you've got it on the board for those emergencies.


Yes, intuition is very good and I have one in my side board. However, I was not sure about having one in the main board because it feels clunky post side board from time to time. There are games when you have it in hand and you just don't know if you should cast it at the end of turn on Spiral or not (opening yourself to Surgical Extraction). Maybe this issue is rare enough to forget it.

The thing I specifically didn't like about Intuition is that it's a GIGANTIC liability in games 2 and 3 (unless you're playing against people able to Game 1 Wish for Extraction, go figure). Game 1 you can just EoT win the game, but I took the card out of my sideboard because you set yourself up to get blown out by Extirpate and Extraction, and you need another counter to fend off the Extraction, which really stretches your resources having to pick up at least 2 and probably more than that because they're siding in Red Elemental Blasts, Pyroblasts, and Mindbreak Traps, not counting the Delver decks that might have something. I have pushed through the damage by cantripping into Turnabouts and other stuff before while they wait to Blast your Spiral while still snagging a smattering of counterspells, where sometimes you just need your Scrolls and Wishes for actual big combo pieces. It's really rough and really tight, but doable, but I would prefer not to expose myself to such a huge unnecessary vulnerability in trade for such a powerful game 1 play.

[elijah]

Also, has anybody tried testing out Visions of Beyond? Card seems conditionally good but 1 mana can be the difference between winning and losing in the deck. I don't think it's something you maindeck, though.

@feline, have you played against any Painted Stone decks? Because I'd like to know how often they try blowing up land since it's just a blowout against the deck.

[astormbrewing]

Also, has anybody tried testing out Visions of Beyond? Card seems conditionally good but 1 mana can be the difference between winning and losing in the deck. I don't think it's something you maindeck, though.

@feline, have you played against any Painted Stone decks? Because I'd like to know how often they try blowing up land since it's just a blowout against the deck.

Card seems bad considering you're likely casting Time Spiral before you have 20 cards in your graveyard. There are times where you might draw 3 for 1, but they are few and far between.

[Derklord]

My version is a bit special since I play Capsize in the Brain Freeze slot.Huh, Capsize is special? I would never play Candles without Capsize in the board.


Also, has anybody tried testing out Visions of Beyond?Doesn't really mix well with Spiral. Plus, when I have 20 cards in my graveyard I've pretty much already won.
I probably wouldn't even play it with Frantic Search (and yes, I've testet that :laugh:)...

[astormbrewing]

Huh, Capsize is special? I would never play Candles without Capsize in the board.

Capsize is really win-more. It's cute, but not necessary.

[elijah]

Huh, Capsize is special? I would never play Candles without Capsize in the board.

He's playing a Capsize instead of a Brain Freeze. There's usually both somewhere in the 'deck and the 'board.


Doesn't really mix well with Spiral. Plus, when I have 20 cards in my graveyard I've pretty much already won.
I probably wouldn't even play it with Frantic Search (and yes, I've testet that :laugh:)...

Fair enough, but Frantic Search is a free draw spell. Even on your non-combo turn or if you need to stop your opponent from doing something, it's absurdly good. Hymn to Tourach, in reponse Frantic Search, Flusterstorm, seems pretty good to me. It's just like Brainstorming and getting rid of the worst two cards, but you're getting even more value out of it, which is why it's banned.

[TiMeWaLk]

@Derklord

I am a bit surprised that you consider Capsize to be widespread. Capsize is very rare in side boards because of this:


Capsize is really win-more. It's cute, but not necessary.

which brings me to my next point,

@astormbrewing

I have the impression you just repeat the "truth" you read somewhere. Actually, I completely disagree with Capsize being win-more in my version, which cut Brain Freeze (another thing which is against the "truth"). I gave a lot of arguments in favor of this version in the old thread (or if this one, I don't remember), but I mainly received this kind of answer... :frown:

[Cave]

Capsize is really ok in my opinion, just because it spares you time. Sometimes your tournament opponents play a lot around the fact that High Tide takes a lot of time to win the game. My only concern is you (Timewalk) not packing USZ in your 60s, this means you basically need double wish for the trick to be working. But well, it would just be more comfortable, it's not that capsize doesn't work without it.

On a side note, if Frantic search was legal, candelabras would now be worth 0.05$ each (or well, maybe 30$ each or so just for the rarity for collectors, but for sure people won't be selling candelabras for 200+ dollars when there is another instant untapper which also gives card quality around in the format)

[astormbrewing]

@astormbrewing

I have the impression you just repeat the "truth" you read somewhere. Actually, I completely disagree with Capsize being win-more in my version, which cut Brain Freeze (another thing which is against the "truth"). I gave a lot of arguments in favor of this version in the old thread (or if this one, I don't remember), but I mainly received this kind of answer... :frown:

I have experience with the deck and I have played Capsize in my sideboard before. Honestly, even when I had the ability to Capsize for infinite mana, there wasn't a need because I was already on a roll toward winning with Blue Sun's Zenith anyways. I forgot I even had Capsize in my sideboard because it was unnecessary.

[Mackan]

I haven't been in the tide forums much lately because I sold the deck both irl and on modo :(
I feel the urge coming back so I might buy in again...

@bf vs bsz
I don't think you should compare BF and BSZ. They are both cards for winning the game (where bsz also function as a draw-spell) but they are also not exactly comparable because the spells leading up to them vary a lot. I go for BF when im bottlenecked on mana i.e from candelabras beeing needled and turnabout beeing extirpated. Just chain spirals and cantrips until you have lethal storm.

@intuition
play one main. You go from 4 spirals to 9. It's that simple! Board it out per default for g2/3 for meditate.

@tops
What is the general feeling of tops now that it has been tested for a while? Is it a good enough idea to begin with? How many have you been testing? there are some diminishing returns on the card, especially when shuffled back in the deck. Counterbalance in the board?:)

[clavio]

Help me with this math problem (Maybe this should be in community?):

Let's say I am brainstorming with 50 cards in my deck, 23 of which are outs that make me win. I think the calculation for this is: (27/50)*(26/49)*(25/48), so my failure rate is just about 15%. However, drawing ponder, brainstorm, or preordain off of my first brainstorm might enable me to dig for an out. I only have enough mana to cast one more cantrip and one out, I have 3 brainstorms 4 ponders and 3 preordains left in my deck. I came up with this: ((27/50)*(26/49)*(25/48))*((47/50*46/49*45/48)). (I think) This would be my percent chance of not hitting one of my 23 outs and not hitting a brainstorm, around 12.3%. Of course just drawing brainstorm isn't good enough, I need the third card from the top of my deck to be one of my 23 outs (the top 2 are cards I replaced from brainstorm). It is here that I'm stuck, I don't know how to figure that out, or how to figure it out for preordain or ponder. It's been a while since I've taken stats, I don't even know if that 12.3 is correct.

Thanks!

[elijah]

Can we establish which decks you absolutely can't Brain Freeze for everybody?

So far, I'm pretty sure it's:
NO decks running a single Progenitus
Metalworker decks with a lone Blightsteel Collosus
Some OmniTell buils with the one Emrakul
Sneak & Show decks that have four Emrakul

I think that's it. That covers some Elves lists, NO Bant, Forge decks, and all Show & Tell decks. Anything I missed people play in the format?

Also, as an extra-closet casey sidenote: if you're going to fizzle and only have enough for Brain Freeze, if you have enough to Cunning Wish as well, you can Extract with the trigger on the stack. I think?

[203995014]

Can we establish which decks you absolutely can't Brain Freeze for everybody?

So far, I'm pretty sure it's:
NO decks running a single Progenitus
Metalworker decks with a lone Blightsteel Collosus
Some OmniTell buils with the one Emrakul
Sneak & Show decks that have four Emrakul

I think that's it. That covers some Elves lists, NO Bant, Forge decks, and all Show & Tell decks. Anything I missed people play in the format?

Also, as an extra-closet casey sidenote: if you're going to fizzle and only have enough for Brain Freeze, if you have enough to Cunning Wish as well, you can Extract with the trigger on the stack. I think?

Decks with Progenitus and Blightsteel are impossible to kill with Brain Freeze on the spot because they never hit the graveyard and you have to wait 2 turns for them to draw cards, which is plenty of time for them to win.

Decks with 4 or 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn however are not impossible to mill if you set it up correctly. You do need a high enough storm count but if you do, if Emrakul, the Aeons Torn hits the graveyard, you can cast Cunning Wish and wish for a Surgical Extraction and extract them out so you can continue milling them in peace.

Now 12-post decks are tricky to mill and you probably won't want to put the effort into it and should just Blue Sun's Zenith them. It is however possible to mill them with Brain Freeze, although that requires either a lot of work or insane luck. One way to do it is to Surgically Extract a titan each time in response to the trigger and casting Time Spiral to go through everything all over again. Eventually, you will have extracted all of them and can mill them with a minimum of three Time Spirals. Another way is to wish for a Ravenous Trap if by really dumb luck all 3 titans are put into the graveyard with a single Brain Freeze.

[elijah]

The Titans don't cycle back into the deck, but the Emrakul and the Kozileks do.

You would need an arbitrarily large storm count to mill them after Emrakul hits the 'yard because I'm pretty sure the trigger still resolves (anybody actually know for sure?) and it's probably much safer and less resource intensive to just USZ them to death.

[JDK]

Decks with Progenitus and Blightsteel are impossible to kill with Brain Freeze on the spot because they never hit the graveyard and you have to wait 2 turns for them to draw cards, which is plenty of time for them to win.
It's funny you mention Extraction and Trap in response, but not BSZ. You should be able to BSZ them for a really small amount to make it lethal in addition to BF.

[Cave]

@Myself: deleted for idiot content

[JDK]

@Cave
You should actually read what the text on Progenitus and Blightsteel Colossus says.

[203995014]

It's funny you mention Extraction and Trap in response, but not BSZ. You should be able to BSZ them for a really small amount to make it lethal in addition to BF.

I have never actually thought of doing that. Thanks for the idea!!

[Cave]

@Cave
You should actually read what the text on Progenitus and Blightsteel Colossus says.

Well, i'm used to emrakul, my bad.

Yeah BSZ is cool in those cases.

[feline]

SCG Milwaukee was a bust, going at it again locally, this time SCG Seattle, haven't top 8'd in like the past 6 Legacy SCG Attempts. But gotten close a couple times.

-edit- Just got back from SCG Seattle, got 28th this time, got knocked out by Counterbalance & RUG Delver as my 2 losses, the RUG match was probably the most unwinnable one overall, didn't even come down to a game 3. Got a 3rd loss final round against patriot stoneforge whatever you wanna call it. A fizzle didn't help either, went to game 3 and I threw that one away.

Next attempt, SCG Los Angeles, 2 weeks.

[Cave]

-edit- the RUG match was probably the most unwinnable one overall

What was the issue with Canadian? I find that the main problem with this matchup is when they have fast clock; say, t1 delver blind flip at t2, or mongoose + multiple bolts to fast threshold. Otherwise they are kinda slow and you can buy enough time to drop 5-6 lands and evade at least one taxing counter; in fact i'm pretty happy to see them playing a goyf against me because that's their slowest option. Once you resolve spiral it is pretty much good game as their dazes and pierces do nothing, so you're actually playing against 4 fows and nothing else.

If your list has remained the same, I can see a particular issue with them being able to stifle your untappers, but you can also -1 candelabra +1 turnabout post side, and you can also go for the brainfreeze plan if they already spent one stifle on candelabra and you lack the mana to USZ.

Well yeah, maybe I sound too much positive about this but from my experience it is far from unwinnable. I discussed with a RUG player post match once, and I figured out that he kept a hand with mongoose + stifle + wasteland G1, planning to go hard denial and get to threshold very early, and that's basically a mulligan to 4 against my list.

[Infinitium]

It's funny you mention Extraction and Trap in response, but not BSZ. You should be able to BSZ them for a really small amount to make it lethal in addition to BF.

Only if Emrakul is at the very bottom of their deck; remember the shuffle effect is placed on the stack above any storm copies that have yet to resolve.

[JDK]

Cannot you guys read?

Emrakul != Progenitus/Blightsteel Colossus.

[feline]

What was the issue with Canadian? I find that the main problem with this matchup is when they have fast clock; say, t1 delver blind flip at t2, or mongoose + multiple bolts to fast threshold. Otherwise they are kinda slow and you can buy enough time to drop 5-6 lands and evade at least one taxing counter; in fact i'm pretty happy to see them playing a goyf against me because that's their slowest option. Once you resolve spiral it is pretty much good game as their dazes and pierces do nothing, so you're actually playing against 4 fows and nothing else.

If your list has remained the same, I can see a particular issue with them being able to stifle your untappers, but you can also -1 candelabra +1 turnabout post side, and you can also go for the brainfreeze plan if they already spent one stifle on candelabra and you lack the mana to USZ.

Well yeah, maybe I sound too much positive about this but from my experience it is far from unwinnable. I discussed with a RUG player post match once, and I figured out that he kept a hand with mongoose + stifle + wasteland G1, planning to go hard denial and get to threshold very early, and that's basically a mulligan to 4 against my list.

I meant most unwinnable as in, out of the 9 matches through out the day. As far as RUG itself goes, it's back and forth, it's not the most favorable match up if they turn 1 a creature followed by holding a bunch of counter magic, but it's not the most unfavorable either 8-)

[Heretic_AntheM]

Feline, can you share your list?

[feline]

12 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
4 Time Spiral
1 Meditate
1 Wipe Away
1 Snap
1 Turnabout
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 High Tide
-sideboard-
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Intuition
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Rebuild
1 Snap
1 Wipe Away
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pact of Negation
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Grafdigger's Cage

This is just what I personally run however. The average list will still have a main deck Blue Sun's Zenith, and sometimes -1 Flusterstorm +1 Pact of Negation in the main. As well as no main deck bounce, & -1 Candelabra of Tawnos, +2 Turnabout in the main. Also the Sensei's Divining Tops are a "newer trend" that has spawned more recently, thank you Colin Chilbert / Di.
As far as the sideboard goes, it's more common to see a second Surgical Extraction &/or a Ravenous Trap instead of the Grafdigger's Cage, making everything in the sideboard a Cunning Wish'able target. Some builds do Rebuild, others do Hurkyl's Recall. Everything else is fairly traditional about the sideboard, a lot of 1 of's to make Cunning Wish awesome.

[Heretic_AntheM]

Thanks, Feline!

[elijah]

So I had an idea, and I wanted your guys' opinion.

What about switching a maindeck High Tide into the sideboard permanently and pulling in another counterspell (Pact of Negation, Swan Song, or Spell Pierce) to have 8 maindeck counters and 10 virtual copies of High Tide versus the previous 8 copies Game 1?

Yay/Nay? Just a thought. Might try playtesting it.

[elijah]

This is just what I personally run however. The average list will still have a main deck Blue Sun's Zenith, and sometimes -1 Flusterstorm +1 Pact of Negation in the main. As well as no main deck bounce, & -1 Candelabra of Tawnos, +2 Turnabout in the main. Also the Sensei's Divining Tops are a "newer trend" that has spawned more recently, thank you Colin Chilbert / Di.
As far as the sideboard goes, it's more common to see a second Surgical Extraction &/or a Ravenous Trap instead of the Grafdigger's Cage, making everything in the sideboard a Cunning Wish'able target. Some builds do Rebuild, others do Hurkyl's Recall. Everything else is fairly traditional about the sideboard, a lot of 1 of's to make Cunning Wish awesome.

How do you feel about the 2/2 Sideboard/Maindeck split with the Flusterstorms and the extra Pact? Does it depend on the meta or just a personal preference? How have you felt about Game 1 about the choice?

How have you felt about the Tops? Has the free card and continual filtering won you games?

[Cave]

So I had an idea, and I wanted your guys' opinion.

What about switching a maindeck High Tide into the sideboard permanently and pulling in another counterspell (Pact of Negation, Swan Song, or Spell Pierce) to have 8 maindeck counters and 10 virtual copies of High Tide versus the previous 8 copies Game 1?

Yay/Nay? Just a thought. Might try playtesting it.

I've seen a successful list packing 3 high tides maindeck, but it was quite a while ago.
Anyway, I don't like the idea: take into account that high tide is blue instant and you have a deck with at least 11 dig spells and 4 merchants already. Chances are you will be struggling to find the other combo piece, Time Spiral, for it is a sorcery.
As far as I am concerned, i'd maximize the odds of naturally drawing into HT rather than putting myself into the mindset that I can still spend a Wish to find it (and three mana is huge) while I cantrip for Islands+Spirals+Protections. The best target for Cunning Wish is pact of negation indeed, so to speak: you really want to use a Cunning Wish for that because the moment where you are more vulnerable to disruption is the moment where you go off starting by high tide and ending up resolving your first (and hopefully last) time spiral; if it's turn 4 you want to spare mana and you want pact rather than flusterstorm sometimes.

Anyway, the more I go in depth on developping a high tide deck, the more I am convinced that it is really a matter of personal preference; I tried many many lists, proxy'ed candelabras, experimented weird cards: and I found that I cannot even consistently play the deck to a win by goldfishing when I play lists that are very different from what I usually play, even though some player was successful with it. I tested the deck that top8'ed in Milan and I found it to be horribly inconsistant in my hands. I know i'm an average player but I can't really help thinking that not playing one copy of Pact of Negation in my maindeck is a suicide, and I really value Intuition to be a miracle card in G1, reducing your chances to fizzle to nearly 0%: also that list packed 4 tops too, and while top is a good card, fullset is really unbearable imho.
What I mean is: just go for a test. If you like it, go for it and don't think about it again just because someone on the internet told you so.

[elijah]

I've seen a successful list packing 3 high tides maindeck, but it was quite a while ago.
Anyway, I don't like the idea: take into account that high tide is blue instant and you have a deck with at least 11 dig spells and 4 merchants already. Chances are you will be struggling to find the other combo piece, Time Spiral, for it is a sorcery.
As far as I am concerned, i'd maximize the odds of naturally drawing into HT rather than putting myself into the mindset that I can still spend a Wish to find it (and three mana is huge) while I cantrip for Islands+Spirals+Protections. The best target for Cunning Wish is pact of negation indeed, so to speak: you really want to use a Cunning Wish for that because the moment where you are more vulnerable to disruption is the moment where you go off starting by high tide and ending up resolving your first (and hopefully last) time spiral; if it's turn 4 you want to spare mana and you want pact rather than flusterstorm sometimes.

Anyway, the more I go in depth on developping a high tide deck, the more I am convinced that it is really a matter of personal preference; I tried many many lists, proxy'ed candelabras, experimented weird cards: and I found that I cannot even consistently play the deck to a win by goldfishing when I play lists that are very different from what I usually play, even though some player was successful with it. I tested the deck that top8'ed in Milan and I found it to be horribly inconsistant in my hands. I know i'm an average player but I can't really help thinking that not playing one copy of Pact of Negation in my maindeck is a suicide, and I really value Intuition to be a miracle card in G1, reducing your chances to fizzle to nearly 0%: also that list packed 4 tops too, and while top is a good card, fullset is really unbearable imho.
What I mean is: just go for a test. If you like it, go for it and don't think about it again just because someone on the internet told you so.

Fair enough. Thanks.

[DuKeLiO]

Currently I'm playing this list:

4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Merchan Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
3 Repeal
2 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Sensei's Divining Top
8 Fetchland
10 Island

Sb:
2 Graffdigger's Cage
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
3 Swan Song
1 Flusterstorm
1 Snap
1 Intuition
1 Wipe Away
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall (i'm not very sure on which is the best)
1 Surgical Extraction

I have liked Repeal ever (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5783&iddeck=41872). The card is a answer against any kind of permanent hate except Gaddock Teeg. So when I swap the Preordain by Sensei's Divining Top and saw that Top has some problem when drawed in multiples I thought on playing repeal again. It is very good when you are comboing and can cycle it while untapping some lands with candelabra or changing it for two cards with Top and some mana.
Tonight I will record some videos playing against BUG and probably next monday them will be online.

I had some thoughts about my bad beating in Ovinotto (Milan) some weeks ago. I had not tried Swan Song maindeck and I was afraid about play it maindeck and only played one on my sideboard, playing Pact of Negation and Misdirection instead. Now I think Flusterstorm and Swan Song are the best counters supporting FoW in this deck, so I think they are the counters you have to play. I will opt on playing Fluster maindeck and Swan Song on sideboard now beacuse my meta is higher on midrange decks and low in Miracles/Countertop, but I think you can toy with the numbers to adapt it for certain metagames. Also playing three maindeck Repeal let's me less afraid to play against Countertop.

Also, I'm not sure right now on playing Brain Freeze on my sideboard. I rarely needed it. I use to use it to not having to take so many time producing mana to kill with BSZ. The only times when I had to use it were in games were my resources were wasted with multiple Extirpates (Spiral, Tide). I'm also don't know if playing BSZ maindeck I have to play a second one in sideboard. Maybe I can suprime one kill condition on sideboard playing BSZ + BSZ or BSZ + Freeze preseving one slot for a real sideboard card.

About the issue of playing only 3 High Tide maindeck, I don't think it is a good idea. You usually only want it in your sideboard to protect it about being extirpated completely and in game 1 it is very difficult to happen. For games two and three you will side out against any deck with a reasonable probability playing Surgical Extraction.

[Cave]

You are a well known player, you don't want to run the risk of people knowing that and trying to discard+extract your only win condition :laugh: (just kidding)

Repeal is a good card indeed, it buys you a lot of time, plus you plan to play swan song and repeal can just bounce the token for U if you don't have better targets.
Despite this, I was reading the thread again (like I do sometimes) and I was stuck on these posts where a guy says Capsize is good because it makes infinite mana with candelabra of tawnos: well, now that sdtop-mania has spread all around the High Tide players, I figured out that if you also have a SDT while going for infinite mana, you can also draw your entire library with SDT by activating Top's tap ability and then bouncing it with Capsize.
Taking into account that those two wonderful artifacts stay on the board when you time spiral (therefore you are very likely to have them on the battlefield at some point during your combo), I think someone who's playing candelabras and tops could use this fact to thin some slots in the deck, as capsize acts as a turnabout (with candles) and as a arbitrarily large USZ to himself (with top). Namely when I see people playing 1 USZ maindeck +1 side, either one could be gone for a capsize.

It's just a random idea though.

[203995014]

1 Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall (i'm not very sure on which is the best)

Also, I'm not sure right now on playing Brain Freeze on my sideboard. I rarely needed it. I use to use it to not having to take so many time producing mana to kill with BSZ. The only times when I had to use it were in games were my resources were wasted with multiple Extirpates (Spiral, Tide). I'm also don't know if playing BSZ maindeck I have to play a second one in sideboard. Maybe I can suprime one kill condition on sideboard playing BSZ + BSZ or BSZ + Freeze preseving one slot for a real sideboard card.

About the issue of playing only 3 High Tide maindeck, I don't think it is a good idea. You usually only want it in your sideboard to protect it about being extirpated completely and in game 1 it is very difficult to happen. For games two and three you will side out against any deck with a reasonable probability playing Surgical Extraction.

I find Rebuild to be better because for one more mana, you get a card that has cycling stapled to it, and it doesn't target (relevant vs. Witchbane Orb).

Brain Freeze isn't absolutely necessary but it is advisable. Mana Screw DOES happen and you want to have a backup. However, if you really wanted to take this card out from the sideboard you could.

I personally found Blue Sun's Zenith maindeck to be a waste of space.

Very few people play Surgical Extraction or Extirpate maindeck. Having 4 mainboard High Tide is a must. Moving one to the sideboard is a safety precaution that is made vs. every deck G2 and 3 just in case they have Surgical Extraction or Extirpate.

[elijah]

I find Rebuild to be better because for one more mana, you get a card that has cycling stapled to it, and it doesn't target (relevant vs. Witchbane Orb).

Leyline of Sanctity is also a card as well. So there's that.

I think Rebuild is better against Chalice decks, because it's really rare to get Chaliced at 3, unless they're tapping out to do it, whereas Chalice at 2 is a thing, especially in a deck with Ancient Tombs and City of Traitors, it doesn't seem unreasonable to see that happen. I debated going down to Hurkyl for decks like Affinity and MUD, but can't bring myself to do it in case I accidentally get caught needing to get around the Chalice.

[TiMeWaLk]

You are a well known player, you don't want to run the risk of people knowing that and trying to discard+extract your only win condition :laugh: (just kidding)

Repeal is a good card indeed, it buys you a lot of time, plus you plan to play swan song and repeal can just bounce the token for U if you don't have better targets.
Despite this, I was reading the thread again (like I do sometimes) and I was stuck on these posts where a guy says Capsize is good because it makes infinite mana with candelabra of tawnos: well, now that sdtop-mania has spread all around the High Tide players, I figured out that if you also have a SDT while going for infinite mana, you can also draw your entire library with SDT by activating Top's tap ability and then bouncing it with Capsize.
Taking into account that those two wonderful artifacts stay on the board when you time spiral (therefore you are very likely to have them on the battlefield at some point during your combo), I think someone who's playing candelabras and tops could use this fact to thin some slots in the deck, as capsize acts as a turnabout (with candles) and as a arbitrarily large USZ to himself (with top). Namely when I see people playing 1 USZ maindeck +1 side, either one could be gone for a capsize.

It's just a random idea though.

Incredible... I managed to open the eyes of somebody on Capsize :laugh:

If you read the old thread, I think I was already advertising quite strongly for playing Capsize when playing SDT + Candles. I have not enough time right now to explain it again (or find my old post), but I'll try to post something more detailed this evening (if I am ready to go to GP Antwerp).

[DuKeLiO]

Finally the videos are up.

We played 3 games of High Tide against Shardless BUG and 3 games against TES.

http://es-es.twitch.tv/evolutiongoya/b/472826459

I hadn't thought on the Capsize + Sensei issue, so may be I'll try it. I liked when I played it some years ago beacuse I could bounce every permanent on my opponent side before playing a Spiral.

[ScatmanX]

Finally the videos are up.

We played 3 games of High Tide against Shardless BUG and 3 games against TES.

http://es-es.twitch.tv/evolutiongoya/b/472826459

I hadn't thought on the Capsize + Sensei issue, so may be I'll try it. I liked when I played it some years ago beacuse I could bounce every permanent on my opponent side before playing a Spiral.
Thanks for these.
Don't know if someone commented on it (watched without sound), but last game against TES you could have Surgical Extractioned one of your own spells (failing to find the card) just to shuffle your library, and use Top to see 3 new cards.
Keep'em coming!

[DuKeLiO]

The problem with that play is that I have already a Time Spiral on Top of my library, so maybe is easier to find one High Tide on one card rather than the Tide and Spiral with 3 cards; but maybe be your play is better, I didn't do the math.
The comments haven't too much value, beacuse neither people know about Legacy enough, but are fun if you speak spanish.

[alphastryk]

The problem with that play is that I have already a Time Spiral on Top of my library, so maybe is easier to find one High Tide on one card rather than the Tide and Spiral with 3 cards; but maybe be your play is better, I didn't do the math.
The comments haven't too much value, beacuse neither people know about Legacy enough, but are fun if you speak spanish.

You can stack the top look, then draw and surgical before the look resolves, giving you the Time Spiral in hand and a look to find a High Tide in 3 cards.

[ScatmanX]

The problem with that play is that I have already a Time Spiral on Top of my library, so maybe is easier to find one High Tide on one card rather than the Tide and Spiral with 3 cards; but maybe be your play is better, I didn't do the math.
The comments haven't too much value, beacuse neither people know about Legacy enough, but are fun if you speak spanish.
Guess I wasn't clear. I'm talking about 2:10:00. You had resolved 2 Tides, had a Top, and started resolving a Brainstorm with 3 lands up, having 3x lands, 2xFluster, Tide and Surgical. For me, putting back 2 lands, and Surgicalning something would have gotten you to see 3 cards with a possible 9 mana.
I speak Portuguese, so maybe will try to put sound on later to see if I can catch anything. =]

[elijah]

Anybody making the treck to Indianapolis this Sunday besides myself?

[Isaac]

Sorry I am a little late on this but I did play today in indy. Was going strong at 5-1 lost round 3 to esper deathblade. After round 6 I faced uwr delver and then round 8 rug delver. This deck is my achilles heel and I need to work on this match up. Round 9 I faced a white blue concoction of snap caster mage venser the lab that lets you bounce a wizzard and stoneforge mystic. In this last match up he had better hands and more outs. I beat 2-0 something round 1 honestly didn't see much from this guy other than black discard but he was running other colors. Round 2 I beat tin fins 2-0 then round 4 2-1 ad naus. Final games consisted of him playing 9 spells me countering 1 for a total of 10 storm after playing tendrills. I had remora out and I flustered his tendrills but he had 3 led and mana floating to more than enough pay for it. Then I pact of negation one copy. While at a lonely 1 and having to pay 5 during my upkeep things were looking quite grim. However I played high tide then turn about then untaped my three mana with candle and paid for the pact. I returned with vengeance and killed him. Round 5 2-0 junk and then round 6 2-0 sneak and show. believe it or not I won game 2 off the back of a 2/2 bird token. I was in the start of going off I had bstorm and time spiral in hand I went to b storm for any possible counter back up he swan songed my spell then I played spiral to get around 5 or 6 counters and some land. He didn't drawl much and I beat him from 12 to 0 with the token. There are changes that I need to make in this deck and I'm going to do some heavy testing in the next couple of weeks or months till I get it all down.

[GoldenCid]

Has anybody seen this??

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11877&iddeck=86948

No candles, 4 tops (too much in my opinion), 407 bodies, top 8.

GC.

[Cave]

Has anybody seen this??

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11877&iddeck=86948

No candles, 4 tops (too much in my opinion), 407 bodies, top 8.

GC.

Yeah, we were discussing it 3-4 pages ago. 4 Tops are too much but redundancy and consistency are very good when metagame is infested with those boring midrange discard decks. Most interesting aspect in that deck is that he's probably the only one high tide list to ever make such an important result with 3 cloud of faeries. He said that their versatility (cycle, chumpblock) makes up for the fact that they are a bad untapper when compared to candelabra. Plus, if your main goal is to brainfreeze, faeries can do a lot of spells and mana when snapped/echoing truth'd.:laugh:

I envy him though, I can't really play this deck without an intuition md in g1. Way too good.

[Megadeus]

I kinda wanna play like a UG High Tide deck splashing for Sylvan Library to be able to draw cards after my opponent has discarded all my stuff... I know it's terrible, but for some reason I wanna try it

[GoldenCid]

Yeah, we were discussing it 3-4 pages ago. 4 Tops are too much but redundancy and consistency are very good when metagame is infested with those boring midrange discard decks. Most interesting aspect in that deck is that he's probably the only one high tide list to ever make such an important result with 3 cloud of faeries. He said that their versatility makes up for the fact that they are a bad untapped when compared to candelabra. Plus, if your main goal is to brainfreeze, faeries can do a lot of spells and mana when snapped/echoing truth'd.:laugh:

I envy him though, I can't really play this deck without an intuition md in g1. Way too good.

Well i did my best with 2 CoF MD, 1 Intuition and, sometime, 1 Mind over matter. THe deck with and with out candles is very powerful!

GC

[Isaac]

Tomorrow I'm going to write some goodness about recent card selection what match ups it's good or bad against and also possible current alternatives for your meta.

[203995014]

If Frantic Search were to be unbanned (not going to happen), what card would be taken out in High Tide to put Frantic Search in? Would Frantic Search even be an option?

[Vacrix]

Yeah Frantic Search would put this deck over the top. But likely it won't get unbanned because then blue combo decks have a nice card filter at 2U to interact with Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors to facilitate SNT other such combos.

We would probably take out Turnabout altogether and run 4 Frantic Search. That would give us a very consistent turn 3.

[elijah]

Is Noxious Revival a card, or is it just a really bad Intuition? I'm conflicted on whether or not spending 2 life is what you want to be against decks with Lightning Bolts but not opening yourself up to Surgical and Extirpate seems good, but it's at the cost of not always being able to find Time Spiral.

[TiMeWaLk]

Why do you compare Noxious Revival to Intuition? The cards have nothing in common. Anyway, I would never play Noxious in High Tide.

[GoldenCid]

Why do you compare Noxious Revival to Intuition? The cards have nothing in common. Anyway, I would never play Noxious in High Tide.
Agree!! Well said!!

[lebarion]

I've played Noxious Revival in Omnitell as a way to fight discard and a (bad) grave hate. It is not great, but it's interesting. I could see it being used the same way here.
If you feel like your matchup against reanimator/dredge is so bad it is not worth to spend slots in the SB only for it, give Noxious Revival a try and let us know. Many people don't see the missing combo piece coming back from your grave from a Cunning Wish.

[GoldenCid]

With 12 one mana cantrips i have no so many problems against discard. Has anybody improved, that mu. With top?

[elijah]

I've played Noxious Revival in Omnitell as a way to fight discard and a (bad) grave hate. It is not great, but it's interesting. I could see it being used the same way here.
If you feel like your matchup against reanimator/dredge is so bad it is not worth to spend slots in the SB only for it, give Noxious Revival a try and let us know. Many people don't see the missing combo piece coming back from your grave from a Cunning Wish.

I will brew with it and see how it goes. Being able to Revival a Time Spiral seems nice, but now that I've made the Sensei's Top switch, it may not be necessary.

Also, in very rare emergencies, it seems like it could save you from a Surgical.

[Derklord]

Being able to Revival a Time Spiral seems niceEr, Time Spiral exiles itself.

[astormbrewing]

Er, Time Spiral exiles itself.

I assume he is speaking about when Time Spiral gets discarded. We have no reliable way to tutor for it aside from Intuition, so you can be in a tough spot when it gets discarded.

[clavio]

Went 5-3 at GP. It was awesome when I was 5-1. I lost to UB Tezzeret twice. No idea what that deck even is. Didn't prepare for it at all.

I have been running 2 swan songs in my sideboard and I have been liking them a lot.

[civet five]

I kinda wanna play like a UG High Tide deck splashing for Sylvan Library to be able to draw cards after my opponent has discarded all my stuff... I know it's terrible, but for some reason I wanna try it

I played U/g High Tide briefly but splashed the Green for Explore (and needed to run 3 Trops and 8-9 Fetches I think). I was a fan of this over Retraced Image, as it cantripped, but ultimately switched back to MonoU when I realized how much better the Candles version is.

[Megadeus]

I played U/g High Tide briefly but splashed the Green for Explore (and needed to run 3 Trops and 8-9 Fetches I think). I was a fan of this over Retraced Image, as it cantripped, but ultimately switched back to MonoU when I realized how much better the Candles version is.

Explore actually seems pretty sweet in high tide allowing for a higher T3 kill. I was just thinking about how an opponent can hymn and then Liliana away a hand in this deck and then Time SPiral becomes your only real out. Instead you could run library to like draw more cards or something... I know Ill never actually get around to playing this, that was just a random thought that went through my head.

[Matt]

I'm new to high tide, but I've been playing storm for awhile now. My local meta has a lot of creature based strategies--Zoo, U/R Delver, RDW, ect. Do you guys have any suggestions for improving my 75 with these match-ups in mind (besides candelabra)?

Main:
1x Candelabra of Tawnos
4x Time Spiral
4x High Tide
3x Turnabout
3x Cunning Wish
1x Intuition
3x Meditate
4x Force of Will
1x Pact of Negation
2x Flusterstorm
1x Snap
4x Merchant Scroll
4x Ponder
3x Preordain
4x Brainstorm
3x Scalding Tarn
15x Island

Side:
1x Turnabout
1x Meditate
1x Hurkyl’s Recall
1x Ravenous Trap
1x Pact of Negation
1x Flusterstorm
1x Blue Sun’s Zenith
1x Brain Freeze
1x Echoing Truth
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Snap
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Defense Grid

All advice appreciated!

[GoldenCid]

I'm new to high tide, but I've been playing storm for awhile now. My local meta has a lot of creature based strategies--Zoo, U/R Delver, RDW, ect. Do you guys have any suggestions for improving my 75 with these match-ups in mind (besides candelabra)?

Main:
1x Candelabra of Tawnos
4x Time Spiral
4x High Tide
3x Turnabout
3x Cunning Wish
1x Intuition
3x Meditate
4x Force of Will
1x Pact of Negation
2x Flusterstorm
1x Snap
4x Merchant Scroll
4x Ponder
3x Preordain
4x Brainstorm
3x Scalding Tarn
15x Island

Side:
1x Turnabout
1x Meditate
1x Hurkyl’s Recall
1x Ravenous Trap
1x Pact of Negation
1x Flusterstorm
1x Blue Sun’s Zenith
1x Brain Freeze
1x Echoing Truth
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Snap
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Defense Grid

All advice appreciated!

More fetchlands.

[Matt]

More fetchlands.

I have the 4th Tarn in the mail; I plan on getting two more fetches when I have the fundz. But besides the obvious stuff, how can I improve my aggro match-up? Does Retraced Image or Cloud of Faeries make any sense? I'm reluctant to run Cloud of Faeries. Firstly, it's an obvious downgrade from Candelabra, which just makes me feel that much worse for only owning one! And secondly, Snap->Cloud of Faeries is obviously weak to Bolt, which is present in Zoo, Delver, and Burn... Just thinking out loud. Thanks for the feedback, though.

[GoldenCid]

I have the 4th Tarn in the mail; I plan on getting two more fetches when I have the fundz. But besides the obvious stuff, how can I improve my aggro match-up? Does Retraced Image or Cloud of Faeries make any sense? I'm reluctant to run Cloud of Faeries. Firstly, it's an obvious downgrade from Candelabra, which just makes me feel that much worse for only owning one! And secondly, Snap->Cloud of Faeries is obviously weak to Bolt, which is present in Zoo, Delver, and Burn... Just thinking out loud. Thanks for the feedback, though.

Cloud of fae has worked so well for me. It is a cheap untap effect which is good. It is also a chumpblocker at worst.
I dont own any candelabra so lucky you bit i had very good results with fae + turnabout.

[Matt]

Cloud of fae has worked so well for me. It is a cheap untap effect which is good. It is also a chumpblocker at worst.
I dont own any candelabra so lucky you bit i had very good results with fae + turnabout.

I should probably playtest Cloud of Faeries, and I probably will. But honestly, I'd be more inclined to go 2x Snap main before playing Cloud of Faeries. In my meta, Snap should almost always have a target, so it can always be used to accelerate. Snap also answers GSZ->Teeg, and it can bounce beaters to buy time, which seems more relevant than just chump blocking. It also dodges stifle (Delver). And, I won't be tempted to Snap my Faeries, which might be a plus (Bolt/Fireblast). On a different note, I'm considering -1 Pact of Negation for +1 Flusterstorm in the main. Flusterstorm looks good against Burn and, to a lesser extent, Zoo (GSZ). I'm just speculating, but I'll try to back it up with some testing this weekend. Thanks again for the feedback; keep it coming!

[203995014]

This is my sideboard:

2 Grafdigger's Cage
1x Intuition
1x Meditate
1x Turnabout
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Brain Freeze
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Flusterstorm
1x Pact of Negation
1x Ravenous Trap
1x Rebuild
1x Echoing Truth
1x Wipe Away
1x Capsize

Is it better to try to run something else in place of Grafdigger's Cage or should I stick with it for the bad matchup? Perhaps some discard hate with Mystic Remora?

[clavio]

Went 6-2-1 in Providence today.

3 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
12 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
4 High Tide
3 Cunning Wish
1 Pact of Negation
1 Meditate
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Time Spiral


3 Pact of Negation
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
2 Wipe Away
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Intuition
2 Swan Song
1 Spell Pierce

Lost to Deadguy and Elves. Beat Dredge, Enchantress, Loam Thing, RUG Delver, ANT and Deathblade. Intentionally drew against Pox, but we played it out and I won 2-1 (Reid Duke no less).

[MTG Junkie]

Very very impressive primer!

I'm a ANT player at hart. However playing ANT in locals has just been getting harder and harder. So iv been looking into other stuff to play. Im interested in this deck but I find myself wondering why it hasn't been popular in the past 3/4 months. I would have to get the hole deck so....idk.

[TiMeWaLk]

The bad match ups are too common right now: Miracle, Elves, Show & Tell. RUG tempo and UWR Delver are also not the easiest decks to play against. In addition, with TNN in the format, reanimator is seeing more play (one of the worst match up of HT).

[MTG Junkie]

What would you say a iedeal meta is?

[clavio]

Schenectady NY! Who are you?

The deck has enough counterspells where you are never totally dead in any matchup. Your bad matchups aren't as bad as they would be in a deck that runs no counters. Against a good RUG player it's a tough matchup and all the games will be close. Against a mediocre or worse RUG player you are favored. Things like Goblins, Blade Control variants, Shardless and DNT are good matchups.

[MTG Junkie]

Curtis Dittmar aka Curt Dawg. And you?

Still on th fence about it. Matchups seem super similar to ANT,you just have counterspells. I think I could play this.

[lavafrogg]

Is there a spiral tide list that runs snapcaster and snap or is that just the instant speed version?

Also:

It there a non candelabra version that has ever put up any numbers?

[entreri_fans]

Is there a spiral tide list that runs snapcaster and snap or is that just the instant speed version?

Also:

It there a non candelabra version that has ever put up any numbers?

snapcaster mage is a little against Time Spiral, so we don't use him.

also, Spiral Tide without Candelabra is still competitive, if built correctly.

here is a good example

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11205&iddeck=81823

try it, my friend

[lordofthepit]

Hey guys, I'm going to try my hand at High Tide, which I have no experience with.

How do you guys tend to board against the U/W midrange or tempo builds that have been running around since TNN became legal? I expect some combination of hatebears from them (usually Meddling Mage or Ethersworn Canonist), but you also have to deal with the countermagic and the clock, as well as either discard, REBs, or GSZ/Gaddock Teeg depending on their splash color. They don't have much hard permission, but taxing counters are pretty annoying when you are relying on High Tide.

My sideboard currently has an Echoing Truth, two Wipe Aways, a Snap, and a Slaughter Pact. It seems you want to leave some number of answers in the sideboard, but still sideboard in a few copies into the main.

[MTG Junkie]

Played a buunch of test games tonight against DnT and Team America. Lost 2 out of like 13. Really liking the deck.


3 Candles and 3 Flusterstorm to go;)

[lavafrogg]

Played a buunch of test games tonight against DnT and Team America. Lost 2 out of like 13. Really liking the deck.


3 Candles and 3 Flusterstorm to go;)

Pre and post board? As a bug player I would love to sit across from a tide player. You doing anything special?

[MTG Junkie]

Pre and post against DnT,just pre against T A. Just started playing the deck yesterday so idk no the difference for sur. I'm assuming the difference is BUG is more of a controll deck wher as TA is more tempo ish.

[TheBoozeCube]

Been thinking about dusting off my High Tide deck. It's been about a year since I've played it. A few questions for the more dedicated players:
(1) Is this a good time to play the deck meta-wise?
(2) How many Candles are optimal? I used to run 3x, but I've since picked up the 4th (my go-to deck is 12 Post). Is it worth giving up a spell fo add the 4th?
(3) Is Mana Short a viable sideboard option to stop opposing blue decks from hardcasting FoW off your HTs?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[203995014]

Been thinking about dusting off my High Tide deck. It's been about a year since I've played it. A few questions for the more dedicated players:
(1) Is this a good time to play the deck meta-wise?
(2) How many Candles are optimal? I used to run 3x, but I've since picked up the 4th (my go-to deck is 12 Post). Is it worth giving up a spell fo add the 4th?
(3) Is Mana Short a viable sideboard option to stop opposing blue decks from hardcasting FoW off your HTs?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Most of the tier 1 decks use countermagic in some way so those matches are going to be tough.
3 Candelabra is the general sweet spot. The other cards are kind of important.
You could cast turnabout tapping their lands and if they tap it for mana in response just go to main phase 2. It's not really worth using a sideboard slot for Mana Short.

[feline]

You could cast turnabout tapping their lands and if they tap it for mana in response just go to main phase 2. It's not really worth using a sideboard slot for Mana Short.

I second this, Turnabout at the end of their turn before yours, or on your turn with the combat phase declaration if they tap out, is probably all you need, after that it's counterspells backing it up.

As well, if you look at the average list, 3 is the Candelabra number seen the majority of the time.

For randomness, I'm in Ohio for the winter, so I'll be looking at east cost/mid west opens for the next couple months, Columbus Ohio is already my first planned hit in January. Been a bit busier than expected this December, so I haven't gone to any opens since early November, LA.

[sublime love]

It does not put up numbers for the 2 logical reasons.
1. Good players can't find candels (I think all of new England has them, haha)
2. Its a hard deck to play, and legacy is diverse. So even if u are good, a bad runs can hit.
high tide is a POWERFUL DECK, the same way TEPS is. But not everyone can be Brian cook.
Bad match ups, decks with discard, counters, and hate bears/clocks; Meddling mage, cliques, delver.
The stifle, pierce, thoughtseize, hymn, fow delver decks are the hardest
decks with just daze/fow are easy to play around and into.
It a fighting counters and discard, that is hard.
In the hands of a skilled player, skilled player of high tide, it should win you many games

[Mackan]

...and it is also a turn to slow:(

[MTG Junkie]

It's defiantly not Storm. The deck embraces it self with counters and such. So iv found the extra turn dosnt matter to much.