[Primer/Deck] High Tide

[MTG Junkie]

Besides Retraced Image is there any other cards that put a land into play? When going off I always feel like being able to put a extra Island into play would be good.

Feline,are you still running the same list?

Lordofthepit, how are you liking the deck so far?

[feline]

Basically yes the same as the August SCG Minneapolis one, except it's 2 Preordain 2 Sensei's Divining Top instead of 4 tops all together. Also went up to a 3rd Grafdigger's cage, just running 2 Pact's sideboard at the moment.

[MTG Junkie]

Soo wow... Lost to U/W Stoneblade in rd 4. I ended up sneaking into top 4 only to have to play the same person again.
I was the guy saying Im a combo player I dont care about TNN. Man after tonight idk. He brought in 11 cards against me, all because TNN freed up those slots.

Still had a blast playing the deck though. I got a tingly feeling every time i casted a Candelabra lol.

[feline]

A sideboarding is always lopsided with them almost always doing more, as most Legacy decks have dead cards against High Tide like, Swords to Plowshares as an example. As well, with a wish board, there isn't as much of a "true" sideboard as the opposing deck that has a whole arsenal of 15. Basically it means our game 1's will almost always be somewhat more favored than our game 2 & 3's.

[sublime love]

I have owned candels for a wile. But mine I got so I could play 12 post. Recently I have decided to play tide, only due to it being considered the best combo deck in format.
I found out, game one many decks have lots of dead cards. After sb, you have a lot more to play around.
Still, HT is an insane deck

[bjholmes3]

Before you spend a lot of money on building High Tide, full disclosure: there is no reason whatsoever to believe that it's the best combo deck in the format. Current data would suggest that to be more along the lines of Sneak Show.

[clavio]

Before you spend a lot of money on building High Tide, full disclosure: there is no reason whatsoever to believe that it's the best combo deck in the format. Current data would suggest that to be more along the lines of Sneak Show.

Doesn't Sneak Show have trouble with DNT?

[feline]

Now official for Columbus Ohio on Jan 19th, got my ticket in.

[lavafrogg]

Carry over from the solidarity thread:

Has anyone tried a cloud of faeries/snap/snapcaster engine in the sorcery speed build of high tide? I have been siding in cloud to speed up my combo turn in place of resets. Not sure how well it would play with the rest of the deck though.

From the looks of it the list wouldn't play time spiral and would be a different list entirely.

[feline]

Carry over from the solidarity thread:

Has anyone tried a cloud of faeries/snap/snapcaster engine in the sorcery speed build of high tide? I have been siding in cloud to speed up my combo turn in place of resets. Not sure how well it would play with the rest of the deck though.

From the looks of it the list wouldn't play time spiral and would be a different list entirely.

Usually if you see anything between those 3 choices it's Cloud of Faeries/Snap.

-edit- January 10th:
After some time off, that being December, from the Open series. I'm back on again, already have SCG Columbus & SCG Baltimore tickets in for the last 2 weekends of January. High Tide attempt # 12 & 13 coming shortly, hoping to put High Tide back on the map and give the deck some attention again!

[Admiral_Arzar]

Usually if you see anything between those 3 choices it's Cloud of Faeries/Snap.

-edit- January 10th:
After some time off, that being December, from the Open series. I'm back on again, already have SCG Columbus & SCG Baltimore tickets in for the last 2 weekends of January. High Tide attempt # 12 & 13 coming shortly, hoping to put High Tide back on the map and give the deck some attention again!

Nice, it'll be good to see this deck in high-level play again.

I played High Tide for the first time in probably two years at my local the other night, went 2-1-1 and missed top four on breakers. I played this list:

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Time Spiral

4 High Tide
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Turnabout

1 Pact of Negation
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will

1 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
11 Island

Sideboard

3 Defense Grid
1 Pact of Negation
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Divert
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Echoing Truth
2 Snap
1 Brain Freeze
1 Rebuild
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Turnabout

Sideboard was/is a mess and I will be making some changes there. The deck performed reasonably well, only fizzling once when I had both Merchant Scroll and High Tide Extirpated (still almost got there but couldn't find my BSZ or final Wish after cantripping a bunch of times with 20+ storm). Round one I lost to Forgemaster MUD 1-2, winning game one but then dying to huge amounts of hate the other two games (triple Lodestone Golem turn 3 game 3). In hindsight, I may have been able to win this one if I had exerted proper mulligan discipline in games 2-3 but mulling to Force instead of keeping decent all-around hands. I boarded Rebuild and some other bounce. In round 2 I beat Dark Maverick 2-0, boarding in bounce and maybe Divert. In round 3 I beat RUG Delver 2-0, sculpting hands that were able to win the turn before I died both games. Game 2 we had an enormous and entertaining stack battle at the start of my combo turn involving 2 fetchland activations, a Stifle, 2 High Tides, a Pact, a FOW, a Daze, a Pierce, and a Flusterstorm all at once. I boarded in the 2nd Pact and the Defense Grids, although I didn't draw the Grid until I was already far into the combo. I drew the final round 1-1-1 with Pox. This deck gave me significant trouble considering the massive discard and land destruction - the game I won I had an empty hand due to Liliana but top-decked Time Spiral with six lands in play. Game three I went off but fizzled after casting 4 Spirals and 20+ other spells due to Extirpate pressure. I never drew the Diverts I boarded this match.

Overall the maindeck seemed completely fine, I don't think I will make any changes there. The sideboard needs something to the effect of -1 Surgical, -2 Divert, +1 Bounce Spell, +2 Spell Pierce or Spell Snare (my meta has multiple Chalice decks and lots of bears nowadays).

[clavio]

I'm thinking about dropping my maindeck USZ. The card does too little pre-spiral.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I'm thinking about dropping my maindeck USZ. The card does too little pre-spiral.

I played the deck for at least a year without a maindeck BSZ, but wanted to try one out. It's been both good and bad depending on the situation, although I feel like it might be necessary because I don't run Meditate anymore.

[feline]

If it helps, I haven't run a maindeck Blue Sun's Zenith, or maindeck Pact of Negation pretty much since running the deck as they are less useful pre spiral. But the average list does maindeck 1 Blue Sun's Zenith.

[feline]

No top 16+, but a 41st of 342 for Columbus, so hoping for 40th or better next weekend at Baltimore!

[ScatmanX]

Not bad!
Any chance of a small report?

[203995014]

Born of the Gods spoiler just recently spoiled a new card, Spirit of the Labyrinth. How is this deck going to deal with this card? Is it just going to just pray and hope this card never shows up?

Can this deck still be a deck with that card in existence?

[D@N]

Born of the Gods spoiler just recently spoiled a new card, Spirit of the Labyrinth. How is this deck going to deal with this card? Is it just going to just pray and hope this card never shows up?

Can this deck still be a deck with that card in existence?

yes, brain freeze, snap/wipe away and chai. of vapour.

[clavio]

Born of the Gods spoiler just recently spoiled a new card, Spirit of the Labyrinth. How is this deck going to deal with this card? Is it just going to just pray and hope this card never shows up?

Can this deck still be a deck with that card in existence?

It's like ethersworn canonist with more power.

[Tammit67]

No top 16+, but a 41st of 342 for Columbus, so hoping for 40th or better next weekend at Baltimore!

Congrats! Hope to see you there

[JDK]

It's like ethersworn canonist with more power.

It just messes with the combo setup, but it doesn't hinder e.g. ANT and TES from going off.

[GoldenCid]

It just messes with the combo setup, but it doesn't hinder e.g. ANT and TES from going off.
Ir belcher thought

[sublime love]

R n D loves to make new hate bears.
nothing worse then any other hater. you learn to play around it. reason the deck runs counters and bouncy spells.
Maverick/junk/taxes/Zew are the types of decks that will play it. Not many decks can run it, due to them also running draw spells.
for the first few events, every one will try and cram new cards in decks, they always do. We just need to wait and are where the decks settle.

[feline]

Not bad!
Any chance of a small report?

Yes as per the usual, in the tournament section of the forums of course. I'm actually on to write that out right now.

-edit- report in http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27448-SCG-Columbus-amp-High-Tide-attempt-12-41st-of-342-players&p=784087#post784087

[JosephK]

Hello !

I play a standard list but i recently took my 2 md meditate out for 1 Sensei DT and 1 USZ. I don t really like USZ MD because it s not always good post spiral (if i went off with 3 lands, i prefer having meditate or Top). So i m thinking about replacing it with a second top or meditate. But a second top is not that great when you draw it post TS and when you already have it in play. What s your opinion on this matter ?
EDIT : I actually find 1 Meditate MD necessary. Can be fetched with scroll when needed. I can't run tolarian wind instead (this is essentially a sb card).


I d also like to talk about the sideboard. Here is mine :

Toolbox
Kill : 1 Brainfreeze, (1 USZ if not MD), 1 Rebuild, used to kill with Candelabra.
Draw : 1 Intuition (Pre TS), 1 Tolarian Wind (Post TS - better than meditate imo)
Defense : 1 Pact, 1 Bounce Split Second
Untap : 1 Turnabout
Vs Dredge & co : 1 Ravenous Trap

Meta Cards
Dredge & Co : 2 Grafdigger s cage, 1 Surgical Ext

Aditional MD defense
1 Bounce Split Second (don t have it MD)
2 Swan Song (Sneak Show beeing the main Target)


And I play 8 Defense Spells MD (not counting Turnabout) : 4 FoW, 1 Pact, 3 Flusterstorm.

What do you think about my sideboard ? Am I missing something ?
Sometimes I see sideboards with 2 Snap and 2 other bounces. Why so much hate :) ? In my opinion, defense grid is overdoing it and doesn t help vs sneak and show. More than 1 Pact of Negation in the SB is not very useful - when you already play 1 MD like i do- (used against non combo decks most of the time), i prefer running swan song, more polyvalent.


Thanks !

[Admiral_Arzar]

If it helps, I haven't run a maindeck Blue Sun's Zenith, or maindeck Pact of Negation pretty much since running the deck as they are less useful pre spiral. But the average list does maindeck 1 Blue Sun's Zenith.

Thanks. Back when I played this deck a lot I never maindecked the Zenith, although I think I did play a Pact a lot of the time. The Zenith was an experiment which I will dispense with, I like to mess around with this deck to see if I can decrease fizzle chance post-Spiral. I may switch out the Pact as well, although I enjoy having it as a Scroll target because there is an absurd amount of tempo in my meta. I think I might test Leyline as well, although that might jeopardize my Defense Grid slots, and that card is insane.

[clavio]

Hello !

I play a standard list but i recently took my 2 md meditate out for 1 Sensei DT and 1 USZ. I don t really like USZ MD because it s not always good post spiral (if i went off with 3 lands, i prefer having meditate or Top). So i m thinking about replacing it with a second top or meditate. But a second top is not that great when you draw it post TS and when you already have it in play. What s your opinion on this matter ?
EDIT : I actually find 1 Meditate MD necessary. Can be fetched with scroll when needed. I can't run tolarian wind instead (this is essentially a sb card).



I just dropped USZ for preordain #4 and it seems good. I like manideck meditate as well, I'm rolling 1/1 right now.

As far as the sideboard goes, I find that I never have enough slots to run all the stuff I want to run. That said I dropped all the anti dredge crap and never missed it. Tolarian Winds sounds awesome.

[JosephK]

Thank you for your feedback clavio ! I'm now convinced that 1 Meditate, 1 Sensei are the best choices. I don't have room for a 4th preordain right now but i will think about it.

Concerning the sideboard, i have the same opinion. It always comes to the same dilemma :

I run the classic stuff and then i have to choose between :
. The Dredge Package
. The Leylines
. Defense grids

In a GP format, if i don't have byes, i think the safest choice is the first one. Leylines are great vs Jund but will you take them in vs a Tempo bug ? (I mean a deck that can have half discard half counterspell cards) Counterspells are also good vs discard. So if you need to counter early spells, more counterspells G2 may be decent. I think that leylines are too specific in match ups that are not especially bad (did i forget something ?). As for Defense grids, do we really need them ? To the point you can forget about dredge and reanim ?

[feline]

Looks like I'm snowed in, travel plans cancelled for Baltimore today, so I'll have to look to Nashville now in 2 weeks, going to be a long 2 weeks. If you're playing / played High Tide at Baltimore, best of luck!

[clavio]

I went 5-4 at SCG Baltimore. My list was the same as my providence list (few pages back) except for -1scalding tarn -1Blue Sun's Zenith, +1Misty Rain forest +1Preordain. I beat UStax, Miracles, Dredge, Team America and Death and Taxes. I lost to Reanimator, Sneak/Show, and UWR Delver twice, including a very ugly 0-2 in round 9. My round one delver opponent had a very different sideboard plan than my round nine opponent. I probably won't be able to play for a month or so, but I'll be watching to see if Spirit of the Labyrinth really does affect the format the way people are predicting.

[feline]

Grats on the winning record finish! In my opinion I feel Thalia is more annoying than the 3/1 can't draw more than 1 turn, because bouncing Thalia costs +1 ha ha. That's just me though.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Top-4'd my local with this list:

2 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
1 Meditate

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Turnabout

4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral

3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Snap
1 Wipe Away

3 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
11 Island

Sideboard
3 Defense Grid
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Pact of Negation
1 Brain Freeze
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Turnabout

I went 3-0-1, beating white weenie (not DnT, a casual brew), U/R Delver, and BUG Delver/Team America. I managed to draw against Miracles due to his slow clock (surprised I even won game one, that matchup is awful). The win against BUG was also incredibly close and involved some serious luck after I misplayed horribly during my combo turn in one game.

I ended the maindeck Zenith experiment and didn't really miss it. I did however miss the maindeck Pact very much. Having a zero-mana counterspell to scroll for is invaluable against tempo because sometimes you just don't have the mana to cast Flusterstorm. Leyline was nice in theory but needs more testing. I only sided it in (and got it into play) once, and I actually lost that game as I bricked horribly on draws (kept Spiral, Wish, Leyline, Candle, 3 lands and drew Leyline, Candle, Candle in that order). My BUG Delver opponent also did not draw Hymn that game, but he did draw a ton of dudes for a fast clock. I never drew Defense Grid either, but that card has earned its slot from previous testing in several different combo decks - it is IMO our best answer to RUG Delver and other non-black tempo strategies. The maindeck Snap was good and I didn't miss the third Turnabout as a result (thanks Feline for that).

[feline]

I like that you mention Defense Grid. I was going with leyline of sanctity, but now I'm going with defense grid instead, decided a couple days ago after I first realized, I own grids, I have to buy leylines.

[lordofthepit]

Looks like I'm snowed in, travel plans cancelled for Baltimore today, so I'll have to look to Nashville now in 2 weeks, going to be a long 2 weeks. If you're playing / played High Tide at Baltimore, best of luck!

You must be the most well-traveled SCG player from the West Coast! Good luck and represent us well!

[feline]

You must be the most well-traveled SCG player from the West Coast! Good luck and represent us well!

I never really thought about that ha ha, thank you. It all depends on money and stuff though, etc etc etc, but trying to do this as much as possible

[clavio]

Today I was thinking about the deck and I realized that I almost never go Wish->Pact in response to a spell I want to counter. Is that normal? I feel like it should come up more often than it has for me. There have been times that I've gone Wish->Pact during my setup phase, but almost never during my combo turn.

[feline]

That is common it seems. Sometimes I will Time Spiral and purposely hold a Cunning Wish when I am at the point of having to spiral again, and instead of using the wish to get a counterspell, I just hold it and if they counter, if I need a counter at that point I'll use it and get a counter, or save the wish, since it's a 1 time use as it removes itself from the game.

On a side note, I'm doing a sideboard overhaul. Right now the cards I just can't cut from the sideboard no matter how I go back and forth about it are:
Blue Sun's Zenith
Brain Freeze
Intuition
Turnabout
Rebuild
Wipe Away
Flusterstorm
Pact of Negation

I am fencing on Meditate because there's one in the main deck and if I can't wish > intuition > spiral because I don't have the mana, then I'd rather scroll -vs- wishing for a meditate since scroll costs 1 less. Though it's tough because with the least amount of mana, I have to net Meditate & then use a cantrip afterwards to basically, get the best 5 of 7, middle ground it's intuition > spirals, and at the other extreme of having lots of mana, it's Blue Sun's Zenith myself for a bunch of cards, or them for even more cards for the kill.

I've cut snap from the sideboard because I only really have snap for hatebears, so I just have the 1 in the maindeck for now & if I need to deal with an at the end of their turn bounce one hatebear, while then bouncing another on my turn, I can wish for Wipe Away, then use snap when starting the first high tide.

I've cut Surgical Extraction because I almost always want to wish for a counter to prevent whatever it is they have that's annoying from hitting the graveyard, or from being reanimated in the first place, Iona for example. Extraction is nice against recurring spells like dredging something back to their hand every turn or something with retrace, but that so very rarely comes up for me that I'm at this point comfortable cutting it for now.

I've cut the Grafdigger's Cages because I bring them in more against Elves than graveyard strategies (Natural Order/Green Sun's Zenith/Flashing back Cabal Therapy when it's BG elves) because I so rarely go against reanimator/dredge. As well against Reanimator I have 4 Flusterstorms which really help against the faster combo decks.

I've since brought in Defense Grid and I like the fact that I can cast it not on the combo turn, and it can draw out a counter spell, which is something I really like against the tempo delver type strategies. It's riskier but even against Show and Tell, if one resolves, I can put one into play and if they just show and tell a big creature and pass the turn for 1 more turn, I can potentially combo out with my next turn and they're likely tapped out at that point, while I have a defense grid working for me, though obviously against some setups that's bad because they can use the grid against me as well when it's their turn. In either case I'm liking Defense Grid enough to be running them again. Still have 2 Pact of negation's so I can main 1 & side 1 for games 2 / 3 against some decks. But one thing I actually don't like about Pact is that I can't use it early on before the combo turn, unless I have 5 mana available for the next upkeep. I've almost come to the point of considering, with having defense grid in the sideboard, to go down to 1 pact of negation, and just have it as a wish target, since games 2 / 3 I am bringing in defense grids anyhow.

The other card I'm considering is in part to Johnathan Thatch who actually did this back in 2012 in his high tide sideboard, as well as Dan Musser who suggested it when I played against him, which is Leyline of Sanctity. Though I would bring them in a lot less than I would Defense Grids, I've actually considered if it's possible to go down enough on the lesser used sideboard cards, and instead bring in both defense grids & Leyline of sanctity's. The thing I don't like about Leyline though is that it's complete dead weight if you don't start off with one in play. But one could make the argument that if you don't even get to combo off because your opponent is throwing so much discard at you, then you're not even spiraling in the first place.

Basically right now I'm sold enough on defense grid's to be running them again, but Leyline of sanctity is a harder sell, though I am considering them as well.

[JosephK]

On a side note, I'm doing a sideboard overhaul. Right now the cards I just can't cut from the sideboard no matter how I go back and forth about it are:
Blue Sun's Zenith
Brain Freeze
Intuition
Turnabout
Rebuild
Wipe Away
Flusterstorm
Pact of Negation

I am fencing on Meditate because there's one in the main deck and if I can't wish > intuition > spiral because I don't have the mana, then I'd rather scroll -vs- wishing for a meditate since scroll costs 1 less. Though it's tough because with the least amount of mana, I have to net Meditate & then use a cantrip afterwards to basically, get the best 5 of 7, middle ground it's intuition > spirals, and at the other extreme of having lots of mana, it's Blue Sun's Zenith myself for a bunch of cards, or them for even more cards for the kill.


I think that you need a post spiral draw in your SB, especially if you take cards like defense grids/leyline Game 2, just to make sure you don't fizzle. If you don't have scroll and only wish, and a bad hand (this more lilely to happen G2 if you take in leylines/grids), you're stuck. If you're planning to take Grids in your SB, I would suggest Tolarian Winds, instead of meditate (easy to see why).
Another thing I see in your SB is flusterstorm. I don't play the same MD list as you : I run 3 MD turnabout and 3 MD fluster. It's easier to play around fluster then.. And I don't think I need a fluster as a wish target to counter that.

I support your opinion concerning leylines. Counterspells are better. :)

[JPoJohnson]

Getting on camera! Best of luck (:

[jake556]

Congrats on the finish Feline! It is always a joy to watch you play, you need to share the tech on the one handed Ponders!

[blindspotxxx]

Good Job Feline! Was sad that you had a Bridesmaid finish.. Those tie breaks..

[feline]

Well SCG Nashville was different, I started out 1-1-1 and figured by the law of averages, there'd be no way I'd win the next 6 in a row, and even then if it actually happened I knew I'd be at the bottom of the 7-1-1's, so I pretty much knew I was done playing for top 8, knowing there'd be 1 or 2 7-1-1's that'd likely not make it based on the number of players & rounds. I am still pretty happy with the overall result with 9th, I basically felt like I top 8'd that one, just not by the technical standards.

In either case, it is a nice boost to motivation. I don't know if I'll write a tourney report this time around because I actually forgot my notepad before leaving, so I took notes on paper & I didn't write down as much as I was focusing more on playing.

Some things I do remember are, in no particular order:

1) Cast High Tide, opponent counters it, cast another High Tide in response, they counter it, then I cast Flusterstorm on both their counters, with them unable to pay, & I basically 2-for-1 the Force of Wills, & get 2 High Tides cast in the process.

2) Chalice of the Void on 1 is annoying, Chalice of the Void on 1, and a second on 3, is bad! Congrats to a UB Tezzeret opponent round 8, I had to scoop a game to that.

3) Elves is the one loss I had, to Thomas Graves (who just won the previous SCG Columbus, & then top 8'd Nashville, congrats again on those back to back top 8's) I think back and I don't think there's much I could have done different that could have improved there.

4) Thank you again round 6, Chris Matt, for actually letting me sit there and Blue Sun's Zenith for 834, it was fun throwing around numbers in the 100's like that, & I hope it was fun to watch!

5) On camera game 3, when I High Tide + Blue Sun Zenith'd in response to V Clique, I Brainstormed afterward, then completely forgot about putting relevant cards on top to hide it & I threw 2 lands on top like a regular Brainstorm, right after I did that I realized it and it was too late. I still can't explain why I did it, but it would have been way more impressive if after pulling off the Tide + Zenith in response, to then Brainstorm on top of it properly. Either way, Defense Grid game 2 was not so well either.

6) I do know that the way I place my lands might look a little different now. Instead of 1 pile & 1 Island on the right of me, I play the first land for the turn to the left of the main pile of lands so there's 1 by itself there too, that way if I see a single land in play to the left of the pile, I know I played a land that turn. I always check for that before the first Time Spiral, so I don't forget to play a land anymore which is something I was doing probably more than I realize. If you find yourself missing a land drop because you just forgot, maybe this little habit will help.

7) I am definitely going to Seattle for the open in march, however I'm going to leave on the weekend of the 22-23rd of Feb. The reason for this, is I will just happen to be going through St Louis, right at the time of that open, so I am now looking at BOTH St Louis, AND Seattle in the next month or so. When I get to St Louis, the last time I got to the city, St Louis, then took the light rail across the river to that casino in Illinois just south of Collinsville, but from that Casino to Collinsville, you have to Taxi. Does anyone in the local area know if city busing is a possibility from that Casino to the convention center in Collinsville? I am going to look things up online if I can find something. Less $ spent on a Taxi the more I can use for magic 8-)

[JPoJohnson]

The way you handle your cards is pretty impressive. Drawing and shuffling with your left hand while you look over your cards in your right. Crazy. :cool:

Congrats again! #9 is pretty impressive, and definitely nicely done after a 1-1-1 start.

[feline]

Ok so new plan, no opens until Seattle, mid March, but then it will be SCG Seattle > SCG LA > SCG Milwaukee > SCG Detroit >SCG Cincinnati all in a span of about 6 weeks I think!

[kingtk3]

I'm late but congratz feline! I've just watched your match against deathblade in round 9 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aafpTD9SS1Y) and I wanted to ask you: are you still sold on defense grid? You basically lost the second game to them.

And I have to say that I've LOVED your comeback in game three with USZ :)

[GoldenCid]

3 Defense Grid
4 Leyline of Sanctity


Are these cards hot enought? Specially leyline which in uncasteable if it's not in you opening seven.

And how do you think spirit of the labyrinth will affect our play?

mother + spirt = ?

[JDK]

I'm late but congratz feline! I've just watched your match against deathblade in round 9 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aafpTD9SS1Y) and I wanted to ask you: are you still sold on defense grid? You basically lost the second game to them.

And I have to say that I've LOVED your comeback in game three with USZ :)

So many misplays...

[tyhiggz]

I haven't had the pleasure of getting to play this deck but seeing it on camera was a thing of beauty.

[jimmythegreek]

I haven't had the pleasure of getting to play this deck but seeing it on camera was a thing of beauty.

Ya but playing against it will put one to sleep :'(

[feline]

Basically I have a set of cards not in the High Tide sideboard, but not in my trade binder either, they are the "beyond 75" cards in the deck, which include Defense Grids, Leyline of Sanctity, Grafdigger's cages. Right now I'm doing Grids because I found in more recent testing that I'd bring them in more against more matches than the other 2. As for losing game 2 to it, I shouldn't have casted it, but I had 8 cards in hand and didn't want to discard, so I figured I'd play it to eat up a counterspell, I was not as expecting it to resolve & even if it did, I could still bounce. Obviously though however, him topdecking a Thoughtseize and using it to hit Rebuild, was unfortunate.

[elijah]

Are these cards hot enought? Specially leyline which in uncasteable if it's not in you opening seven.

And how do you think spirit of the labyrinth will affect our play?

mother + spirt = ?

i am actually pretty scared of the new Spirit. I've been trying out a few bounce spells to see what I like the best between Rushing River, Cyclonic Rift, Capsize, and Withdraw versus the current slot of a second Wipe Away. Rift trumps Mom, but really sucks at getting off it's feet if there's both Thalia and a Spirit out. Withdraw sucks because it doesn't get them all of the time and can be played around, Capsize is far too expensive for only one target at a time, and Rushing River sacs lands which you may need.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Are these cards hot enought? Specially leyline which in uncasteable if it's not in you opening seven.

And how do you think spirit of the labyrinth will affect our play?

mother + spirt = ?

Leyline is a concession to "discard + Surgical Extraction" being a huge issue for this deck. Even without Surgical, anything with Hymns and a fast clock is going to be rough. Sure you can't cast Leylines, but ditching useless cards is what Brainstorm is for. Defense Grid is a blowout against tempo decks that don't play Hymn, and is also good against midrange blue decks without discard. It is IMO the best sideboard card we have for the RUG matchup, for example. Widespread Spirits are obviously bad for us, just like a lot of Meddling Mage or Thalia is also bad for us. I've been considering Spell Snare in the board if the number of hate bears in the format becomes overwhelming.

[feline]

At a local shop in the Cleveland area, I did a run, tested out 4 leyline of sanctity & 2 defense grid in the sideboard, tempted to push for a 3rd grid, but I'd have to move another card out of the sideboard and it's a tight squeeze. Might put the sideboarded 4th flusterstorm into the main and just cut the maindeck wipe away, but I don't like not having one main against counterbalance while only having 1 in the side.

[princeofperasia]

At a local shop in the Cleveland area, I did a run, tested out 4 leyline of sanctity & 2 defense grid in the sideboard, tempted to push for a 3rd grid, but I'd have to move another card out of the sideboard and it's a tight squeeze. Might put the sideboarded 4th flusterstorm into the main and just cut the maindeck wipe away, but I don't like not having one main against counterbalance while only having 1 in the side.

Long time lurker and fan of high tide. I feel like the maindeck wipe away is essential considering the amount of miracles in the current meta. If you're going to be running 4 leylines and 3 grids, is having a full playset of flusterstorms still necessary? If anything, I would cut down to the 3 remaining main deck flusterstorms if you're running so much anti-disruption and anti-countermagic in the board.

On another note, I'm curious how you're able to cut down the wishboard to fit in 6 leylines/grids. I'm imagining it's something like:

1 Pact of Negation
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brainfreeze
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Flusterstorm
1 Intuition
1 Wipe Away
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Defense Grid

which would cut out the extra Pact of Negation and the Rebuild.

Either way, I really enjoy the tournament write-ups, and good luck with the upcoming SCG Opens!

[elijah]

Hint: Swan Song gets Spirit of the Labyrinth.

That's quite nice to know.

[feline]

Long time lurker and fan of high tide. I feel like the maindeck wipe away is essential considering the amount of miracles in the current meta. If you're going to be running 4 leylines and 3 grids, is having a full playset of flusterstorms still necessary? If anything, I would cut down to the 3 remaining main deck flusterstorms if you're running so much anti-disruption and anti-countermagic in the board.

On another note, I'm curious how you're able to cut down the wishboard to fit in 6 leylines/grids. I'm imagining it's something like:

1 Pact of Negation
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brainfreeze
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Flusterstorm
1 Intuition
1 Wipe Away
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Defense Grid

which would cut out the extra Pact of Negation and the Rebuild.

Either way, I really enjoy the tournament write-ups, and good luck with the upcoming SCG Opens!

I kept Rebuild and cut Surgical Extraction.

[clavio]

Are there any (reasonable) cards that deal with multiple hatebears? ANT has Massacre and SNT has Pyroclasm. I can't find anything better than rushing river, which is mediocre. All the bears we care about are humans so it seems like there should be a card that gets it done, but I can't find any.

[JPoJohnson]

Are there any (reasonable) cards that deal with multiple hatebears? ANT has Massacre and SNT has Pyroclasm. I can't find anything better than rushing river, which is mediocre. All the bears we care about are humans so it seems like there should be a card that gets it done, but I can't find any.

Withdraw? It's somewhat similar to Rushing River in that it is mediocre, but it's an option as well.

[flrn]

Are there any (reasonable) cards that deal with multiple hatebears? ANT has Massacre and SNT has Pyroclasm. I can't find anything better than rushing river, which is mediocre. All the bears we care about are humans so it seems like there should be a card that gets it done, but I can't find any.

You can go for Devastation Tide, since Gaddock Teeg is a non-factor these days. The downside is, that you have to play multiple copies of it in the board, since you need to cantrip into it, rather than open it in your starting seven or tutor for it. It also deals nicely with hatebear + Aether Vial. Also decent against Counterbalance. They only have Force of Will to hit off their CB Trigger.

[feline]

I've been using Snap / Wipe Away, as well having Rebuild / Wipe Away in the sideboard.

[Griselpuff]

Feline is being a boss on stream again.

[JPoJohnson]

Feline is being a boss on stream again.

I haven't seen the stream, how'd it go down?

[Undomian]

I haven't seen the stream, how'd it go down?

She ended up losing in 3 to BW Stoneblade.

[feline]

So I will likely never draw a card with Spirit of the Labyrinth in play again, that card was so far off my radar that even when he played it, I was thinking about it the same way I thought about stuff like Gaddock Teeg, I just have to get to a bounce spell as fast as possible. In either case, for funzies, I played the side event and went 2-2 on Saturday, lost to Reanimator, and a False Cure deck! I didn't even know what was going on until it was too late ha ha!

Going to try the next one at SCG LA, though the meta in So Cal is harder with all the RUG running around.

[ThoSha]

Awesome performance feline!
Really enjoyed your featurematch against BW Deathblade. I was really impressed by your speed.
Too bad you fizzeled on that Time Spiral, you would have earned the win there.

[Gralha]

Awesome performance feline![2]
I'm pretty new to legacy and I'm building a high tide deck (right now I'm playing merfolks). I have no idea how someone could play so fast!

[sphen22]

Long time lurker here and was inspired by this primer to build a hightide deck. I got into magic back when revised came out and have been in and out with my peak coming just after the Pokemon craze, never into it but utilized the strong market and ebay to sell premium first ed. cards to gather the P9, played vintage with P9 Howling Mine, Timewarp/walk deck with Hightides and Palinchrons. Sold that to buy a sportbike and have been in and out until a few years ago.

Currently running a 3 Candelabra / 3 turnabout main build that I made about a year and a half ago. Decklist below.

4 High Tide
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 BSZ
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation

4 Merchant Scroll
4 Time Spiral

3 Candelabra of Tawnos

12 Islands
6 Fetch

Sideboard

1 Turnabout
1 BSZ
1 Brainfreeze
1 Snap
2 Wipe Away
1 Hurkyls Recall
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Pact of Negation
1 Intuition
1 Echoing Truth
1 Spell Piece
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Meditate
1 Flusterstorm

Will be heading to SCG LA this weekend to give it a go, this being my first large event, any suggestions?

I have played several casual games and had the deck assembled on MODO for awhile playing a few dailies so I'm pretty familiar with interactions with the deck itself, just worried about playing decks I have not played against.

I do plan on getting smoked but still just doing it more so to have fun.

[feline]

Oh heck yes! Another High Tider, I will see you in SCGLos Angeles, as I'm writing this I just arrived in So Cal where I'll be the next couple weeks. (Mojave Desert)

[topef27]

Feline - I was just wondering if, when looking back at game 3 vs. Cody Lingelbach on the SCG stream, would you doing anything differently to help support your potentially winning turn? I think you had a turnabout and force in your hand when you cast time spiral, do you think it would have been good to cast the turnabout to give you more mana, hoping that Cody didn't have any instant speed disruption in his B/W deck? It was hard to tell what your new 7 card hand was exactly, but I was just curious if you had any clearer hindsight as to what the optimum plays could have been? Maybe holding the BSZ to exile to the Force you could have drawn with top?
As always, it was a pleasure to watch you play, and good luck in LA!

[feline]

Feline - I was just wondering if, when looking back at game 3 vs. Cody Lingelbach on the SCG stream, would you doing anything differently to help support your potentially winning turn? I think you had a turnabout and force in your hand when you cast time spiral, do you think it would have been good to cast the turnabout to give you more mana, hoping that Cody didn't have any instant speed disruption in his B/W deck? It was hard to tell what your new 7 card hand was exactly, but I was just curious if you had any clearer hindsight as to what the optimum plays could have been? Maybe holding the BSZ to exile to the Force you could have drawn with top?
As always, it was a pleasure to watch you play, and good luck in LA!

I didn't turnabout then untap, and then tap out to cast spiral even though I wanted to because I wanted the option to force of will in case they did something in response like extraction, and I needed a card to pitch to force of will. At the same time though I have been thinking about that and maybe letting a potential extraction go through, woulda meant 4 mana more, which would have helped because that was my issue after spiral resolved, not enough mana & ran out.

I did not want to exile blue sun zenith to the force because the blue sun zenith is just too important at the end of the combo. though I could also rely more on brain freeze so it's not like that wasn't an option, I do admit I forget about brain freeze a lot.

The main thing I thought about after losing game 3 was that, when I decided to combo off, I could have waited 1 more turn but I didn't because the dark confidant went into play, & I didn't want to give my opponent any more chances to draw discard spells. In either case, there are things I could have done differently, as in almost every game, especially with a deck that has so many options. I now just have to utilize the experience to try and improve my performances in the future.

I do know that I will probably never draw a card with a spirit of the labyrinth in play again, that card was just so much off my radar that even when it got played, I was like "Ok I just need to wait and use merchant scroll to snap it" so I was in "use cantrips to draw and see as many cards as I could" mode, completely forgetting that my cantrips were actually dead with that in play.

[sphen22]

What is better to run MD a snap or wipe away? Going to move the PoN to the sideboard. Also should I put in a few cages? Not sure what the SoCal meta is like.

[feline]

What is better to run MD a snap or wipe away? Going to move the PoN to the sideboard. Also should I put in a few cages? Not sure what the SoCal meta is like.

I maindeck Wipe Away and Snap, but that's just me. As far as which to run it'd probably be personal preference there, the Wipe Away is less used maindeck but I just personally hate counterbalance that much.

The meta? Expect a lot of RUG, it happens to me every time.

For Los Angeles specifically, I was 2 Defense Grid/2 Grafdigger's Cage for Seattle, but down here I'm cutting the cages for a 3rd and 4th Defense Grid because RUG is always a pain for me down in the So Cal region & I feel I want that extra edge.

[Kayradis]

So theres a lot of people on Reddit going about Feline.
You're the new internet sensation!

[lyracian]

So theres a lot of people on Reddit going about Feline.
You're the new internet sensation!
Does anyone know how far through the stream Feline's on camera game is? Due to time zones I had to go to bed before it was shown.

[feline]

So theres a lot of people on Reddit going about Feline.
You're the new internet sensation!

Now you have me curious, link away? I go to reddit as well as here for magic stuff.

[sadface]

Awesome performance feline!
Really enjoyed your featurematch against BW Deathblade. I was really impressed by your speed.
Too bad you fizzeled on that Time Spiral, you would have earned the win there.

Where can I watch this match?

[kavaki]

Now you have me curious, link away? I go to reddit as well as here for magic stuff.

Whenever people ask about High Tide, I always refer them to see what you've said on the deck. You're easily one of the top pilots of the deck in the world. Its not really hyperbole at that.

I figured Spirit would be a spanner in the works for combo (I figured moreso that it would hurt Delver based decks more). Yes, they get extremely shitty, but to look on A bright side, Ponder still lets you look at top 3 and Preordain still scry's 2. :rolleyes:
I think that seeing spirit do that to someone so experienced on camera will make some people consider it more. If thats the case, I feel like SDT gets a lot stronger.


Where can I watch this match?

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/511630246
10:33:24

[Elfkid]

Hi there, I´m going to buy 2 Candelabra of Tawnos and I dont know if 2 is the correct number in a High Tide decklist and if its is optimal, any issues?

Reggards!

[kavaki]

Hi there, I´m going to buy 2 Candelabra of Tawnos and I dont know if 2 is the correct number in a High Tide decklist and if its is optimal, any issues?

Reggards!

Basically, 3 is best, but 2 is still very good.
Hell, even one candle can help the deck out a bit.

[Kayradis]

Now you have me curious, link away? I go to reddit as well as here for magic stuff.

Can't find the actual thread (I was a bit drunk at work yesterday afternoon.... :/)
But I clearly remember people talking about your skills with the deck.
I do tip my hat to you.



EDIT : http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/20r0mv/metagame_monday_seattle_shows_up_with_irregular/

[MTG Junkie]

[QUOTE=Elfkid;800645]Hi there, I´m going to buy 2 Candelabra of Tawnos and I dont know if 2 is the correct number in a High Tide decklist and if its is optimal, any issues?

Reggards![/QUOTE
I started out with 2 and played it like that for a while. I found my self having to go for Brain Freeze kills more often. Just picked up my 3rd Candle at Richmond :) Now I find myself having a easier time getting BSZ kills. Witch is huge in a meta full of Sneak Show.

[TiMeWaLk]

Hi there, I´m going to buy 2 Candelabra of Tawnos and I dont know if 2 is the correct number in a High Tide decklist and if its is optimal, any issues?

Reggards!

I always play with 2 Candles, and it is not because I cannot afford a 3rd. However, I play Capsize in the sideboard instead of Brainfreeze, partly to be able to do infinite mana and always kill with BSZ.

Candles can really shine in certain matches, because you pay only 1 mana and after this your opponent has to deal with an activated ability (instead of 4 mana for Turnabout). It comes down to what you expect to face.

[MTG Junkie]

I always play with 2 Candles, and it is not because I cannot afford a 3rd. However, I play Capsize in the sideboard instead of Brainfreeze, partly to be able to do infinite mana and always kill with BSZ.

Candles can really shine in certain matches, because you pay only 1 mana and after this your opponent has to deal with an activated ability (instead of 4 mana for Turnabout). It comes down to what you expect to face.

Infinite mana is always intreeging. How much do you have to invest to get there though?

[TiMeWaLk]

With 4 island and only 2 High Tide, you have enough to start the combo. If you played a Candle and untap the 4 islands, you have 12 mana available. 6 manas for Capsize and 5 for untapping the 4 islands, that's 11. Each iteration gives 1 extra mana. Of course, you have to add 3 mana for the Wish (or 2 for Scroll post sideboard sometimes). It means you can start the combo if you have 14 (or 13) manas. I let you do the maths for 3 islands and 4 High Tide.

To this, I would like to add that if you play SDT, you have infinite draws with Capsize once you have infinite mana.

About my experience with such a setup, I found Brainfreeze very anecdotal once you are used to kill with BSZ all the time. Replacing BF with a bounce (an expansive one) like Capsize, which guarantee you the BSZ kill all the time but also deals with many annoying permanents is definitely worth it. My game plan, post Spiral, becomes to find a Candle + a Wish. I even go down to 1 Candle, post sideboard, and still manage to find it with all the draw spells etc...

TW.

[feline]

The Capsize option is a lot of fun because you can bounce all their permanents before a Time Spiral so "just in case you fizzle" it's like they start all over too ha ha.

It also makes it go faster. I don't use Capsize because I actually find it less fun to just "go infinite", why I feel that way I don't know but I completely understand the Capsize, I might even run it as a 1 of in my sideboard sooner or later just to do it once.

As far as the infinite draw with Capsize and Sensei's Divining Top, does that work? I think I tried something like that once with a bounce spell and my opponent said because the top won't go on top, the draw part doesn't work and the whole ability fizzles. Basically tap to draw, then in response bounce the top, then the top goes to hand, then the ability resolves, but because the top is in hand instead it can't go on top, so the draw part fizzles is what I was told. Now I feel like doing some research to reconfirm what actually works and doesn't.

[oarsman]

Whoever told you that is wrong. Once the Top is activated to draw, it doesn't matter if it gets blown up, bounced, or returns to the top of your deck. You will still get to draw the card.

[feline]

Whoever told you that is wrong. Once the Top is activated to draw, it doesn't matter if it gets blown up, bounced, or returns to the top of your deck. You will still get to draw the card.

Oh really, what about the similar trick using Turnabout, tap the top to draw, then use turnabout, then tap to draw again? Maybe that's the part I'm thinking of, it was a while ago.

[kavaki]

oarsman is right.
Abilities only "fizzle" if all targets are illegal or if they are countered. All thats required to use top to draw, is to tap it. When the ability resolves, it does as much as it can. If you somehow didnt have a card in your library and a way preventing you from losing, top would get placed on top. If top somehow leaves the battlefield, the ability still does as much as it can and you still draw a card.

By this logic, with enough mana and capsize, you can basically turn top into a "free" storm creating, card drawing machine (Free in the sense of you have a trillion+ mana, 7 mana doesnt really matter each time.)

[sphen22]

I think I may be putting a capsize in my board, just as a faster engine since I'm still not really fast with the deck.

[TiMeWaLk]

@feline, It does work (same with your Turnabout trick).

To be honest, I do not consider the ability of killing faster from the Capsize tech to be relevant. If you train enough, you will manage to kill fast with HT (see how fast is feline). The reason why I run Capsize is because I do believe that it is just a better slot than Brain Freeze (BF). Most people will argue that it does not have the same purpose, but in practice it does (if you play candles). The reason why people use BF is because, from time to time, they want to kill faster (in my opinion, irrelevant), or they cannot make enough mana. Running Capsize solves both issues and bring also extra flexibility: it is an extra bounce spell that you can run in the main deck post side board! In match-ups like MUD, it is very nice to be able to pack an extra bounce spell, which is something BF would not have done... I could comment on more situations, where running Capsize can be decisive, but I would just advise to try it for while, in a version with 1 or 2 Sensei's divining top, it really shines even more. Btw, I do believe that running 1 or 2 SDT should become a standard in High Tide lists. If people are interested why, they can try to dig in this topic :wink:

TW

[P-E]

What is your last list TimeWalk ?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Oh really, what about the similar trick using Turnabout, tap the top to draw, then use turnabout, then tap to draw again? Maybe that's the part I'm thinking of, it was a while ago.

That works (add Candles to untap for extra fun). It also works with Voltaic Key if you have played MUD. What I am unclear on is whether you draw 2 cards, and then put Top back on top of your library, or if you draw card, put Top on top, and then draw Top as the second card. I'm pretty sure, since the sequence is:

Tap to draw
Response: untap and tap to draw again

The response goes on the stack first, you draw and then put Top on top. Then the original draw happens and you draw Top. Can anyone confirm if this is correct? I'm sure that two cards are drawn here, I'm just not 100% on Top itself being the second card.

[TiMeWaLk]

What is your last list TimeWalk ?

I have not brought High Tide on a tournament for a while because of the unadapted metagame, and a lack of preparation from my side (you have to be in very good mental shape to bring this on a GP for example). However, I kept testing and improving the list I had success with in the past, and came up with this:

1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
12 Island

2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm

3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
2 Flusterstorm
1 Swan Song
1 Pact of Negation (depending on the metagame, +1 Swan Song)
4 Force of Will

4 Time Spiral
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

2 Defense Grid
1 Capsize
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Turnabout
1 Swan Song
1 Snap
1 Wipe Away
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Intuition
1 Mystic Remora
1 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Spell Pierce
1 Pact of Negation

The slot I like the less is Surgical Extraction in the sideboard, which could easily be removed. I am working (again) on a version which packs Counterbalance :laugh:

[kingtk3]

That works (add Candles to untap for extra fun). It also works with Voltaic Key if you have played MUD. What I am unclear on is whether you draw 2 cards, and then put Top back on top of your library, or if you draw card, put Top on top, and then draw Top as the second card. I'm pretty sure, since the sequence is:

Tap to draw
Response: untap and tap to draw again

The response goes on the stack first, you draw and then put Top on top. Then the original draw happens and you draw Top. Can anyone confirm if this is correct? I'm sure that two cards are drawn here, I'm just not 100% on Top itself being the second card.

I think you are correct: you'll draw a card and top itself after it goes on the top of the library.

However, of you have mana to spend, you can activate top's look ability after the first tap ability in order to draw two fresh cards and leave top as the first or second card of the library. Just put this sequence on the stack

tap top to draw
activate top to manipulate first 3 cards
cast turnabout to untap artifacts and let it resolve
tap top to draw again

The effects resolve as follow
draw a card, sensei goes on top
manipulate the first 3 cards
draw another card

If you have a second or third mana to spare you can manipulate even before the first draw and after the third.

[elijah]

Eternal Europe - No Candels, No Problem (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25641_Eternal-Europe-No-Candles-No-Problem.html)

Has anybody tried this list out? He has some good points, but you become more vulnerable to Wasteland.

Also, with advent of Spirit of the Labyrinth and all of the other hatebears in the format, Pyroclasm could be a card. It kills everything we see on the other side of the table that really troubles us: Deathrite, Delver, Ethersworn Canonist, Teeg, Thalia, Spirit. X-for-1s are always really nice, because any combination of the two is damn near unbeatable.

Edit: This also opens us up to Seething Song from the Wishboard, as well as Ancient Grudge (splashing a Trop, of course). Not sure if it's worth it, but the new options are sitting pretty right now. Counterflux is a card that just ends the counter war, but it may be too slow for Legacy.

Edit #2: Splashing a Trop also opens up Nature's Claim. With a deck that doesn't care about life totals, this may not be a bad idea for the permanent based hate out there now.

[jbclarke]

I was watching the SCG Open and the game where Feline bricked after the time spiral. Was wondering if Mana Severance has ever been considered as a 1 of in High Tide in order to create threat density since it makes every card draw pure gas for the most part. I do realize it can't be tutored with Merchant Scroll but still, seems like a way to increase consistency.

[clavio]

Eternal Europe - No Candels, No Problem (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25641_Eternal-Europe-No-Candles-No-Problem.html)

Has anybody tried this list out? He has some good points, but you become more vulnerable to Wasteland.

Also, with advent of Spirit of the Labyrinth and all of the other hatebears in the format, Pyroclasm could be a card. It kills everything we see on the other side of the table that really troubles us: Deathrite, Delver, Ethersworn Canonist, Teeg, Thalia, Spirit. X-for-1s are always really nice, because any combination of the two is damn near unbeatable.

Edit: This also opens us up to Seething Song from the Wishboard, as well as Ancient Grudge (splashing a Trop, of course). Not sure if it's worth it, but the new options are sitting pretty right now. Counterflux is a card that just ends the counter war, but it may be too slow for Legacy.

Edit #2: Splashing a Trop also opens up Nature's Claim. With a deck that doesn't care about life totals, this may not be a bad idea for the permanent based hate out there now.

That list is obviously worse than High Tide. If you're hellbent on not buying candles for some reason....I guess it's ok.

I tried to make pyroclasm work. The fact that you can't tutor for it at all makes it tough to use. You actually can win through Thalia pretty easily if you hit 5+ lands, and you will absolutely have time to make those land drops. Minimally you should be able to combo out to a point, bounce Thalia, then continue to combo.

Counterflux is only good if you're on defense, and even then three mana is a lot. There will never be a time where overloading is useful.

[princeofperasia]

That list is obviously worse than High Tide. If you're hellbent on not buying candles for some reason....I guess it's ok.

I tried to make pyroclasm work. The fact that you can't tutor for it at all makes it tough to use. You actually can win through Thalia pretty easily if you hit 5+ lands, and you will absolutely have time to make those land drops. Minimally you should be able to combo out to a point, bounce Thalia, then continue to combo.

Counterflux is only good if you're on defense, and even then three mana is a lot. There will never be a time where overloading is useful.

Before you give up hope on the PiF version, there's a list in the primer that went 7-2 out of 278 players: http://www.happymtg.com/decks/view/D051383 (The list incorrectly lists 4 Lightning Helixes in place of 4 Time Spirals). His latest list is here (sideboard is changed): http://www.happymtg.com/decks/view/D053151

The pilot, Aoyagi Motohiko, as well as others, ran the list to what looks like good success from other tournament results posted to happymtg over the last year and half.

I tested out Aoyagi's list on modo and resolving an intuition for some combination of Past in Flames + Turnabout/High Tide ends the game on the spot. As long as you can tutor up BSZ, which isn't hard once PiF is active, you end up having lethal BSZ mana without ever resolving Time Spiral.

Yes, it is susceptible to Wasteland, but I never fetched up the Volcanic until I needed to cast PiF. It also allows graveyard hate to shut down PiF, but it is only one card out of the 61 list. At the same time, it gives High Tide two ways to effectively combo off.

Having said that, Aoyagi has since switched to countertop.

[topef27]

It seems like this deck gets overwhelmed by multiple hate permanents (i.e. thalia + canonist, or liliana + confidant) since it can be very difficult to find more than one bounce spell before they kill you. "fair" decks also tend to overload on the sideboard hate from a variety of angles. has anyone tried adding a couple devastation tide, plus perhaps personal tutor? it seems like it could be very effective, especially in the versions with SDT. but perhaps it dilutes the deck too much?

[the driver]

That list is obviously worse than High Tide. If you're hellbent on not buying candles for some reason....I guess it's ok.

I tried to make pyroclasm work. The fact that you can't tutor for it at all makes it tough to use. You actually can win through Thalia pretty easily if you hit 5+ lands, and you will absolutely have time to make those land drops. Minimally you should be able to combo out to a point, bounce Thalia, then continue to combo.

Counterflux is only good if you're on defense, and even then three mana is a lot. There will never be a time where overloading is useful.
Obviously worse????? I think you're discounting it too much. I honestly prefer it. With PiF youe essientially can't fizzle. The real benefit comes from being able to effectively run Intuition for full value, making the deck even more consistent and resilant to hate.

Is there a drawback? In mind it only comes from wasteland, which you can usually play around. The candle version deck is already suseptable to most GY hate people are running. Yes, this version is slightly more but one could make an agruement the PiF version running intuition has more of a defense to mitigate the risk, i.e. Intuition for bounce or a counter. Plus there is the agruement that you can still win without PiF.

Try it. I havent looked back.

[203995014]

It seems like this deck gets overwhelmed by multiple hate permanents (i.e. thalia + canonist, or liliana + confidant) since it can be very difficult to find more than one bounce spell before they kill you. "fair" decks also tend to overload on the sideboard hate from a variety of angles. has anyone tried adding a couple devastation tide, plus perhaps personal tutor? it seems like it could be very effective, especially in the versions with SDT. but perhaps it dilutes the deck too much?

If you somehow manage to let multiple hate permanents enter through your wall of counters and bounce spells, then you either waited too long to pull the trigger or never had the trigger in the first place, both of which shouldn't be happening very often.

Devastation Tide is too slow in any legacy deck except 12-post and MAYBE Nic-Fits. If you REALLY want a Devastation tide effect, then you should just use Evacuation in the wishboard instead. At least it's an instant.

[lebarion]

If you somehow manage to let multiple hate permanents enter through your wall of counters and bounce spells, then you either waited too long to pull the trigger or never had the trigger in the first place, both of which shouldn't be happening very often.

Devastation Tide is too slow in any legacy deck except 12-post and MAYBE Nic-Fits. If you REALLY want a Devastation tide effect, then you should just use Evacuation in the wishboard instead. At least it's an instant.

I agree that Devastation Tide is too slow, and I dislike it even more because it can't bounce Gaddock Teeg.
I've used a one-of Cyclonic Rift in the sideboard, though, to some degree of success. In the worst case it is an "OK" bounce. Besides, opponents usually concedes if you cast it overloaded before a Time Spiral, making the game a little bit faster. :smile:

[clavio]

If you somehow manage to let multiple hate permanents enter through your wall of counters and bounce spells, then you either waited too long to pull the trigger or never had the trigger in the first place, both of which shouldn't be happening very often.


I don't know about that. Sometimes they get Cavern of Souls on human or an Aether Vial and it's just a miserable time. But I agree, Devastation Tide is not the answer.

[Holly]

I'd just play some numbers of Repeal maindeck, they buy you plenty of time versus Delver & germs, they can bounce candelabra to produce mana later in the combo or cantrip with SDT.
3 seems like a nice number, providing you with plenty of protection against bears between them, counter & wish -> other bounce. Oh and they're cc3 for counterbalance which can be hard for Miracles to hit.
Only downside they're dead most of the time against combo (though sometimes you could bounce an Mox in response to IT), but I'm convinced 3 dead slots against combo are fine.

[ScatmanX]

Just for the record, been playing the Ur version for months, and got significantly better in testing and tournaments. PiF + Intuition makes the games way easier.

Enviado de meu GT-S6313T usando Tapatalk

[feline]

SCG Milwaukee, went 6-3, next stop, Detroit!

[meffeo]

Congrats Feline!

I'm going UR playing with 2 volcanic islands and 1 past in flames, what you guys think it's the correct number of intuition? I do believe 2 mainboard and maybe 1 sideboard?

[the driver]

Congrats Feline!

I'm going UR playing with 2 volcanic islands and 1 past in flames, what you guys think it's the correct number of intuition? I do believe 2 mainboard and maybe 1 sideboard?

I like two in the main. I dont think you need a third in the board. Finding one of the two is easy and I'm not sure if I'd want to board in a third

[feline]

You can Scroll or Wish for Intiution so I'd imagine you'd only need 1 main 1 side in a Past in flames version, however that is just me totally guessing because I've never done a past in flames focused version of high tide. Just watch out for those wastelands. I heard a version of High Tide running Past in Flames with Epic Experiment was done like a year ago, but I know it didn't place high. If I can find the deck list on Starcity I will link it here if that helps.

Found it, 64th place, Indianapolis, October 2012: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50398

[meffeo]

For reference, this is my list:

Counts : 59 main / 14 sideboard

Spells:42
1 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
1 Flusterstorm
4 High Tide
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Pierce
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Snap
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
3 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
1 Past in Flames
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
3 Time Spiral

Lands:17
1 Bloodstained Mire
9 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:14
2 Pact of Negation
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spell Pierce
1 Swan Song
1 Brain Freeze
1 Defense Grid
1 Echoing Truth
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
2 Wipe Away
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Turnabout
1 Time Spiral

Going +1 intuition main +1 flusterstorm sb

[astormbrewing]

Haven't played Tide in a while, but I'll be slinging it at the end of May. Here is my current 74*, and I'm always looking for input:

4 High Tide
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Time Spiral
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Cunning Wish
2 Turnabout
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Flusterstorm
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Intuition
1 Swan Song
*(1 Flex)

12 Island
6 Fetch

3 Mystic Remora
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Capsize
1 Snap
1 Turnabout
1 Gigadrowse
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Intuition
1 Meditate
1 Surgical Extraction

Current options on flex:
4th Candelabra of Tawnos, 1st Echoing Truth, 1st Meditate

It was originally just Echoing Truth since I like having a bounce spell main, and it has a cute interaction with multiple Candelabra of Tawnos in play. However, I'm less likely to play when I run a Capsize in the sideboard (over Brain Freeze). Input on this would be awesome.

Yes, Mystic Remora is a strange card in the sideboard, but its really a pet card for me. I enjoy playing it against other combo decks and decks with lots of discard.

[feline]

I was toying with the idea of running a Capsize at the next event or 2 to see how it goes live, and cutting Brain Freeze for it, that is just genius, with a top in play you draw your entire deck! I think I have some testing to do when I get home to confirm just how cool that is! Also I'm not a Swan Song fan, I say add another Flusterstorm to the maindeck! I admit I am bias towards Flusterstorm however.

[astormbrewing]

4 High Tide
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Time Spiral
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Cunning Wish
2 Turnabout
2 Preordain
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Flusterstorm
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Intuition
0 Swan Song
1 Wipe Away

12 Island
6 Fetch

3 Mystic Remora
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Capsize
1 Snap
1 Turnabout
1 Gigadrowse
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Intuition
1 Meditate
1 Surgical Extraction


After some chatting with Feline on Facebook, I'm making the changes above. Additional feedback is appreciated!

[TiMeWaLk]

I was toying with the idea of running a Capsize at the next event or 2 to see how it goes live, and cutting Brain Freeze for it, that is just genius, with a top in play you draw your entire deck! I think I have some testing to do when I get home to confirm just how cool that is! Also I'm not a Swan Song fan, I say add another Flusterstorm to the maindeck! I admit I am bias towards Flusterstorm however.

Nice to read that my efforts paid :laugh:
1 Swan Song & 2 Fluster looks better than 3 Fluster to me, just because it gives you the opportunity to scroll for it when you face S&T (enchantment).

TW

[feline]

Chilbert on cam!!

[ScatmanX]

Gogo Colin!
thanks for the hint =)

[feline]

Official announcement, Chilbert in the top 8! Grats on that & Lets see you take this thing!

[JPoJohnson]

Official announcement, Chilbert in the top 8! Grats on that & Lets see you take this thing!

I'm happy to see High Tide in the top 8 at an Open (:

I saw the game where he got 3 candles out pumping up mana. That was crazy

[Di]

So I had a good weekend. Though I would've liked to get both trophies, but oh well.

I actually had no interest playing the deck, and thought it would run terribly against the field (it's really horribly positioned right now, don't kid yourself). Fortunately, I remembered how to play it, and crushed instead. I de-pimped the deck a few months ago and haven't touched it since, and realized before the tournament I didn't actually own half the cards after selling the foils. Hence the random fucking white boarded Brainstorm and such.

Thoughts on the decklist:
- It's on SCG, look there.
- The list was flawless. Absolutely flawless. Although I would consider running either the fourth Flusterstorm or a single Swan Song maindeck. Maybe over the fourth Preordain. They both got boarded in every blue matchup and every discard matchup (e.g. Jund), which was 90% of what I played against. So it might not hurt to run an additional one main just to boost the game one percentage.
- I still run maindeck Blue Sun's Zenith. It's easily the worst card in the deck, no argument there. So no need to run it if you don't like, but it fits my play style. Although I will definitively say that the maindeck copy was solely responsible for at least three game wins by itself. That alone justified it for me.
- No maindeck bounce spells. Just stop playing these, please. They aren't needed. There are so few cards/matchups you actually care about using these that they simply aren't worth wasting space on. Especially in a large event. Just save the slots for actual draw spells instead, and it'll increase the consistency of the deck in general. Seriously.
- I'd also be wary of running four Candelabras. I know a number of you are high on this, but I ran into four (four!) rounds where post-board I had Pithing Needle and even Null Rod shutting them down. Easily could've gotten screwed over from this. I strongly feel three is the correct number, and an additional Turnabout is almost always better than the fourth Candelabra.
- My sideboard was largely unchanged from what I've run in the past. I wanted a Hurkyl's Recall there, but couldn't justify the space. Speaking of which, to anyone on the Rebuild plan: please get off said Rebuild plan, and just run the damn Recall. I still can't understand people justifying this. Ain't nobody going to be running a Chalice on two against you, and if they do, you deserve a free win. Just use the cheaper card. The cycle is essentially irrelevant given the function of the card and matchups you want it in. So please do yourself a favor and run the cheaper card.

Swiss Matchups:
Round 1: BUG Delver 2-0 (involved an INSANE game where I Spiral into garbage, and resorted to Blue Sun for five and needed to hit an untap effect AND a Spiral in it. So naturally I did.)
Round 2: Monoblue Delver 1-2 (roughly 20 counters, turn one Delver all three games, very rough)
Round 3: NO SHOW! Opponent never showed up for the match in the 1-1 bracket, go figure.
Round 4: Shardless BUG 2-0
Round 5: Burn 2-0 (On camera. Involved a game where I burned all three Cunning Wishes pre-combo trying to play around Mindbreak Traps that I later found out he had two, and needed to BSZ myself roughly three times before being able to generate enough to kill him. Insane game.)
Round 6: Food Chain 2-1 (On camera. Game two and three were incredible. His win game two was bonkers).
Round 7: Jund 2-0
Round 8: Jund 2-0
Round 9: BUG Delver 2-0


I haven't seen any of the SCG feed but could recall basically anything from the event that was on camera. The semis match against UWR Miracles was rough, but I should've won game one given the overwhelmingly favorable board position I had for most of the game. But I had to play it cautiously as I had no counters save a single Cunning Wish (that I felt I needed to save otherwise), but honestly was just too tired at that point, and it affected my play a bit. I was up at 6am to get to the event site to play the top8 of Standard, so I was running on no sleep and no food. In hindsight my game one I know of a few misplays I had, but oh well. Game two I needed too much luck to happen on my resolved Time Spiral to win through Counterbalance.

[TiMeWaLk]

Congratulations!

Did the 2 Surgicals feel like wasted slots?

[Di]

Congratulations!

Did the 2 Surgicals feel like wasted slots?

I never ended up playing against Dredge or Reanimator although there were a number in attendance, but I did use Surgical Extraction once to help win a game. I also heavily considered Wish -> Extraction in game one of the semi finals to nuke all of his Counterbalance, but the turn I ended up really considering moving in on that play he drew the second one and cast it.

[feline]

My first question: Is this true, or a joke response: "Why did you choose to play this deck this weekend?
I didn't choose it; I had NO interest in playing the deck this week. True story."

Also, Mono Blue delver/tempo/whatever you'd call it, I've actually played that match, if it's the one with spellstutter sprites and cliques and a billion counterspells, that match is a total pain in the arse!

As for the maindeck bounce, I keep running into Thalia's or Counterbalance match ups just enough that it's the reason I've kept in maindeck bounce personally. As well I really hate the counterbalance match up that much. You really think I could get away from that? I can do some test out game 1's against Death and Taxes & counterbalance & see if that if it doesn't make that much of a difference & I should cut the bounce myself. I know Counterbalance isn't the best match up as it is if the player knows how to fight High Tide.

Currently I've squeezed in 3 Defense Grid / 3 Grafdigger's Cage into my sideboard, but after reading the potential Extraction on Counterbalance, it makes me want an Extraction back, I've already used that card against opposing Show and Tells and it has helped in the past.

[Di]

My first question: Is this true, or a joke response: "Why did you choose to play this deck this weekend?
I didn't choose it; I had NO interest in playing the deck this week. True story."

Also, Mono Blue delver/tempo/whatever you'd call it, I've actually played that match, if it's the one with spellstutter sprites and cliques and a billion counterspells, that match is a total pain in the arse!

As for the maindeck bounce, I keep running into Thalia's or Counterbalance match ups just enough that it's the reason I've kept in maindeck bounce personally. As well I really hate the counterbalance match up that much. You really think I could get away from that? I can do some test out game 1's against Death and Taxes & counterbalance & see if that if it doesn't make that much of a difference & I should cut the bounce myself. I know Counterbalance isn't the best match up as it is if the player knows how to fight High Tide.

Currently I've squeezed in 3 Defense Grid / 3 Grafdigger's Cage into my sideboard, but after reading the potential Extraction on Counterbalance, it makes me want an Extraction back, I've already used that card against opposing Show and Tells and it has helped in the past.

First question: 100% true. I sold off the rest of my Legacy stuff so it's the only deck I own, and I really didn't want to play it. I pretty desperately tried to borrow a deck but couldn't, so I was forced to run it.

Second: There were no Sprites, just general Delver, Cliques, Snaps, and TNNs. Just an overwhelming amount of counters though, and I never saw a Defense Grid game three. He also had a flipped Delver turn two every game, which didn't help.

Third: To be fair, that's only two matchups out of an incredibly diverse pool of decks, and in an event as large as an SCG, over the course of 9-10 rounds you'll likely face them twice as best. That isn't really worth it to me for maindeck bounce slots. Personally, I don't think the Miracles matchup is as bad as it looks on paper. Outside of Counterbalance, their deck is very weak. They have few hard counters, almost no clock, tons of dead cards game one, and only Clique as disruption. I think it's 50-50, maybe 45-55 their favor. That loss in the semis was actually the first time I've lost to the deck in large tournament play. As long as you can navigate around Counterbalance or bait them with things well, it isn't that difficult of a matchup. Obviously easier said than done, but I've done it enough to where I'm still comfortable with the matchup.

Death and Taxes is annoying, but Thalia is manageable. Their clock is pretty modest outside of Batterskull, so it isn't a stretch to play out Candles early, then hit five lands and go off with 1-2 Tides. Spirit of the Labyrinth is the bigger issue to me, but still doesn't warrant a highly coveted slot.

In general, I'd rather tune the deck to be consistent across the board for game one, rather than dilute it with cards for specific matchups. The way I look at it, those matchups aren't bad enough to warrant it, so it's better to make the maindeck stronger in the first place. Otherwise by running them, you run the risk of having those cards become liabilities in other matchups. Not that they wouldn't help in certain situations, but I'd much rather have a draw spell in hand than a Wipe Away game one against a deck like Delver. As for Counterbalance though, if I were to run any maindeck card to handle it, I'd be running a Swan Song over a maindeck Wipe Away. It at least has applications against everything else you want to deal with (counters, discard, Show and Tell, storm, Spirit of the Labyrinth, etc.).

I also likely should've done the Extraction play, but I remember specifically holding the Wish because the top of my deck wasn't helping, had no other counters, and if the Wish was countered I was screwed. So I needed to wait, but the turn I needed it for he had it. Oh well. But if you manage to extract Counterbalance against them, the odds of you winning go up tremendously. I was very close to actually boarding one in just for that reason.

[feline]

I did notice that your cards were no longer all flashy, or a lot of them, like the Brainstorms/Islands/Merchant Scrolls.

If you're officially off High Tide but played it only because you got stuck with it, then I am sorry to see you go. Whenever I mention active High Tide players, you're one of the names that I still mention. I have to ask, howcome you wanted to play something else? Was it from the previous day and being there at 7 am in the morning & you just wanted something easier to play, or are you officially off High Tide as of now? Also what else would you have played given any choice.

[Di]

Very few of the cards are still pimped, mainly because I didn't get buyers for them. So it's fitting to see foil Wishes or Japanese Spirals sitting with my mismatched 8th edition Merchant Scrolls and Brainstorms haha. But I still have the deck and will continue to play it (though not solely dedicated to it), I just really didn't want to run it. It's not a good metagame choice currently and I didn't have any interest to run through 9-10 rounds with the deck after an exhausting 11-round Standard the day before. Given the choice, I would've run either Show and Tell or 4c Delver, simply because they're stronger against the field overall. But I couldn't complain, my matchups ended up being quite good and the list ran better than I expected it to.

[Mackan]

I really enjoyed watching your games on camera Colin. The way you wished for turnabout and wipe away was beautiful for example. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

What did you sideboard for the game against miracles? I can see Defense grid beeing in there but I was curious about the candelabras. I tend to side them all out against slow blue decks because I don't want to go down in either gas or counterspells and a candelabra can often be replaced by another land drop.

And congrats!

[TableTopMagic]

Did a High Tide Deck Tech with Feline after SCG Milwaukee for my YouTube channel. Just wanted to share with you guys and gals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI7YpNuThYI

[cab0747]

Did a High Tide Deck Tech with Feline after SCG Milwaukee for my YouTube channel. Just wanted to share with you guys and gals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI7YpNuThYI

Great idea! After its showing in the top 8, I would imagine that this deck will get some more attention.

If the candles were less money, I am sure many more people would be playing it. The price tag is what keeps me away from it :(

[Admiral_Arzar]

Congrats Di, was rooting for you to take down the whole thing.

[Di]

I really enjoyed watching your games on camera Colin. The way you wished for turnabout and wipe away was beautiful for example. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

What did you sideboard for the game against miracles? I can see Defense grid beeing in there but I was curious about the candelabras. I tend to side them all out against slow blue decks because I don't want to go down in either gas or counterspells and a candelabra can often be replaced by another land drop.

And congrats!

For the Miracles match, I ended up sideboarding the following:

+2 Defense Grid
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Swan Song
+1 Wipe Away
-1 High Tide
-1 Candelabra of Tawnos
-2 Preordain
-1 Ponder

The reason behind leaving the Candelabras in was two-fold:
1. It's very common that I will bait them early. If it sucks out a counter, awesome. If not, then I'll have it for the rest of the game. In this instance he boarded Pithing Needle for it, so he was worried about them, but not to the point of countering it.
2. By keeping Candelabras in the deck, I had a lot more flexibility with my Turnabouts and didn't need to resort to using them on myself. In the Counterbalance matchups, I am very high on targeting the opponent with them. If they counter it, they lose a counter and I'm not usually worried about losing the card. If they don't, I'll either tap down their lands (thus shutting off the rest of their non-Force counters and Top activations) or, sometimes more importantly, tapping down their artifacts so they can't spin their Tops to shut off 1cc spells with Counterbalance. So by keeping Candelabra in the deck, it effectively strengthens Turnabout as a disruption spell.

[defector]

Congrats Feline on a top 16 in SCG Detroit! Well done:)

[kavaki]

Congrats Feline on a top 16 in SCG Detroit! Well done:)
It is not surprising. I always love to see combo do well and especially Feline and High Tide.

I want to hear something interesting from her however. I want to know how the metas differ between Seattle and Detroit and see if I can pull information out of it.

[feline]

Oh yes, each event has it's own local meta that affects it. The hardest meta for me to play in has been Southern California, I never do better than X-3 in the LA-Vegas area.

Taking notes from the great Colin Chilbert, I did cut at least 1 of the maindeck bounce from the deck, but I hate counterbalance so much I still have Wipe Away 1 main 1 side, but the snap is back in the sideboard. Also I followed his trend of cutting Meditate completely, and I feel comfortable enough to continue running it without Meditate. Next stop, Cincy in 2 weeks!

[kavaki]

Oh yes, each event has it's own local meta that affects it. The hardest meta for me to play in has been Southern California, I never do better than X-3 in the LA-Vegas area.

Taking notes from the great Colin Chilbert, I did cut at least 1 of the maindeck bounce from the deck, but I hate counterbalance so much I still have Wipe Away 1 main 1 side, but the snap is back in the sideboard. Also I followed his trend of cutting Meditate completely, and I feel comfortable enough to continue running it without Meditate. Next stop, Cincy in 2 weeks!

Oh, I know each event/area has its own meta.... im more interested in seeing how certain archtypes are represented across the country. Where is combo historically putting up the best results? Midrange? More for the sake of the belief that data is beautiful.

On the note of Cincy, Graeter's Ice Cream. I went to Cincy a while back and all I remember is that it was damn good ice cream.

I assume that the cutting of the meditate is due to it not being as good as you'd like it anymore?

[feline]

In times where you don't have enough mana to tutor > intuition > spiral, getting meditate means having to cast it, meaning that you're low on mana already if you can't even afford to get to spiral. The other times you Meditate are nice, like at the end of an opponents turn where you have time to draw +4, or draw out a counter, or of course just to draw 4 while comboing for 3 mana, but overall the card is basically trending out, and at this point has trended out completely if you look at the past 2 weeks I suppose. There are things about Meditate I like, like being able to Meditate>Brainstorm, draw 7 keep the best 5 for 4 mana. But really at this point, putting an emphasis on just getting to another Time Spiral if you can't Blue Sun yourself for a buncha cards, really seems to be the main 2 paths at this point.

[Di]

Great to see another high placing finish with the deck in back-to-back weekends. Congrats.

As far as how the deck is built and cutting things like Meditate and your maindeck bounce spells for instance, I could write plenty of reasons on why I think this is justified, but I feel that Matthias Hunt actually summarized this up really well in the coverage from Dallas (I went back and watched it to see how some of my games played, and validated that I had a couple misplays in the camera games). I don't know where it is in the stream, but at one point Matthias likens my build of the deck to a much more two-card, combo-oriented approach, rather than the traditional slower combo-control deck that High Tide usually is. And I greatly agree with him. The manor that I build it, and subsequently play it, is relative to the same vein as Show and Tell -> Emrakul or Deceiver Exarch ->Splinter Twin. Time Spiral is such a powerful play that you can afford to eschew the bigger draw spells like Meditate, because you can bank on hitting what you need between all your other cantrips and draw or a second Spiral without sacrificing slots to a weaker maindeck card like Meditate. Between 11-12 cantrips, Tops (most important really, given how many cards they see), Scrolls, Wish, and the other copies of Spiral itself, the deck has reached a critical mass of consistency and efficiency that it doesn't need to run cards like Meditate.

As for the maindeck bounce spell(s): beyond what I said earlier about this, the way I view it is given this is a combo deck, and should be taking the strongest route to victory and approach the deck aggressively, it makes the most sense to streamline the maindeck to achieve that goal. Your primary plan is to combo as quickly and efficiently as possible. Therefore, the design of the deck should reflect that and maximize every slot to be offered to that game plan. The deck has enough detractors in the form of Force of Will and Flusterstorm, but they are necessary in being able to compete against the field overall. Just like Storm running Duress/Therapy/Silence; they run them because they are needed to fight the metagame as a whole, yet do nothing to advance their own gameplan. Yet you won't ever see those decks, and very rarely any other combo decks, using maindeck slots on narrow cards like bounce because it can get in the way and doesn't fight all the matchups it needs to. That's why they do it post-board. You aren't going to see a Grim Tutor ANT build for instance maindeck an Abrupt Decay, because it hurts the maindeck too much. Yet they have just as bad a Counterbalance matchup than we do. Same concept applies here. Even with our robust draw and tutor ability, it still seems like a waste. To analogize between two lists, say for instance Feline's and my own, a simple way to look at this slot would be Wipe Away v. Blue Sun's Zenith. The rest of the lists are slightly different, but all slots serve virtually the same purpose. Both are easily the worst cards in the deck and poor draws in most situations. But in terms of what the slot's purpose of in the deck, only one of them (Blue Sun's Zenith) is relative to being able to purely help achieve the deck's goal. Wipe Away obviously has uses outside of hitting an opposing spell, like bouncing a Candelabra, but its utility to much poorer than that of Blue Sun's Zenith in the context of being able to fuel the deck and win the game. To be fair though, it doesn't even have to be Blue Sun's Zenith, but really any other draw spell or even protection spell (because a counter will almost always be stronger). Preordain #4, Flusterstorm #4, Swan Song #1, Top #4, Intuition #1, Meditate #1, etc. Point is, the slot is much better served to help the deck win first and foremost, rather than help the deck not lose, especially considering it is being used for a single matchup.

And if I hadn't mentioned previously, if Counterbalance is that much of an issue, I would just start testing Swan Song in place of Flusterstorm maindeck. Either a full swap or a mix. Or go 2-2 and run eight counters main. By going all-in on Swan Song it does weaken some matchups a little as it's more counterable than Flusterstorm and affected by cards like Daze, but on the plus side the Counterbalance matchup would be overwhelmingly stronger.

[TiMeWaLk]

@Di

At the moment, I would always consider 1 Swan Song to be better than 1 (extra) Flusterstorm. Just because we have scroll in the deck, and because the following situations are quite common:
- Elves having enough mana to go through Flusterstorm, and you do not want to pitch a combo card for Force.
- Show and Tell with Sneak.
- CB.

I have few extra questions for you:
- Why 3 Candles / 2 Turnabout (over a 2/3 split)? Is it because of Tempo decks?
- I would not like to see the 4th top in a list (because I already tried, and it was heavier than a 4th preordain for example), but what about the 3rd top?

Congratulations Feline!

[Di]

@Di

At the moment, I would always consider 1 Swan Song to be better than 1 (extra) Flusterstorm. Just because we have scroll in the deck, and because the following situations are quite common:
- Elves having enough mana to go through Flusterstorm, and you do not want to pitch a combo card for Force.
- Show and Tell with Sneak.
- CB.

I have few extra questions for you:
- Why 3 Candles / 2 Turnabout (over a 2/3 split)? Is it because of Tempo decks?
- I would not like to see the 4th top in a list (because I already tried, and it was heavier than a 4th preordain for example), but what about the 3rd top?

Congratulations Feline!

I'm inclined to agree that the first Swan Song is likely stronger than the extra Flusterstorm. It just provides the deck a bit more versatility, not to mention the situations you provided. I'm heavily considering going up to the 8th counter in the maindeck right now because I ended up boarding in Flusterstorm and Swan Song in EVERY single match at SCG Dallas. Assuming I try it out (likely in place of the fourth Preordain) I'd run a 2/2 split of Swan Song and Flusterstorm, while keeping a 3rd Flusterstorm in the sideboard. It would slightly weaken the deck's consistency, but given how the metagame is shaping and there's basically a 90% chance that you'll run into a blue deck, discard deck, or combo deck every single round of a large tournament, I think the benefit outweighs that. To be clear though, this functions wildly different than running something like Wipe Away in that slot, as the applications of the card within the context of its uses are so contrasting. But personally, in that light Swan Song is the purely better card, simply because it will handle so much more.

@ Candelabra/Turnabout split.

I addressed this on the previous page:
- I'd also be wary of running four Candelabras. I know a number of you are high on this, but I ran into four (four!) rounds where post-board I had Pithing Needle and even Null Rod shutting them down. Easily could've gotten screwed over from this. I strongly feel three is the correct number, and an additional Turnabout is almost always better than the fourth Candelabra.

In general I think Turnabout is the better card albeit weaker in multiples, hence the split. But between Candelabra potentially being Stifled or targeted by hate, Turnabout effectively being cheaper (4 mana vs. 1 + X mana which is usually at least four) for pre-Spiral combos, and the fact that Turnabout has many more uses leads me to want another over a fourth Candelabra. I'm rather adamant about this ratio, and it's unlikely I'd ever change it.

@Top numbers

I initially ran the 3rd Top and it was what I used when I first added it to the deck. But I felt that having the third occasionally caused my draws to bottleneck and place too much dependence on the card, especially on the draw in blue aggro-control matchups. It would just occasionally be a little slow and force me into awkward situations. So I shaved a Top in favor of the fourth Preordain and have been rather happy with it. Top is still by far one of the most powerful spells in the deck, but not one that I feel I want a reliance on.

[TiMeWaLk]

Thank you for the quick reply.


@ Candelabra/Turnabout split.

I addressed this on the previous page:

Quote Originally Posted by Di
- I'd also be wary of running four Candelabras. I know a number of you are high on this, but I ran into four (four!) rounds where post-board I had Pithing Needle and even Null Rod shutting them down. Easily could've gotten screwed over from this. I strongly feel three is the correct number, and an additional Turnabout is almost always better than the fourth Candelabra.
In general I think Turnabout is the better card albeit weaker in multiples, hence the split. But between Candelabra potentially being Stifled or targeted by hate, Turnabout effectively being cheaper (4 mana vs. 1 + X mana which is usually at least four) for pre-Spiral combos, and the fact that Turnabout has many more uses leads me to want another over a fourth Candelabra. I'm rather adamant about this ratio, and it's unlikely I'd ever change it.

There is a misunderstanding here. I do not ask why you did not put the 4th Candle. I reformulate: Why the 3rd Candle instead of the 3rd Turnabout? I ask because I play a split of 2 Candles / 3 Turnabout, instead of 3 Candles / 2 Turnabout.

All in all, we agree on almost everything, except the Capsize in my sideboard instead of Brainfreeze.

[Di]

Thank you for the quick reply.

There is a misunderstanding here. I do not ask why you did not put the 4th Candle. I reformulate: Why the 3rd Candle instead of the 3rd Turnabout? I ask because I play a split of 2 Candles / 3 Turnabout, instead of 3 Candles / 2 Turnabout.

All in all, we agree on almost everything, except the Capsize in my sideboard instead of Brainfreeze.

Ah. I still favor the third Candelabra over the third Turnabout because when actually comboing it's better in multiples, thus stronger in conjunction with any Turnabouts drawn. Plus, my style of the deck leans on utilizing Blue Sun's Zenith rather often, so creating this opportunity to generate more mana there makes me keep that split. I always want to see multiple Candelabras because the 2x Candelabra ->Turnabout/Hurkyl's/Echoing Truth line just generates so much mana to consistently support a Blue Sun plan. Sometimes it sucks running more because they can get hit with a Needle, but it's a minor risk that is outweighed by the benefit. I just recognize that it's still a weaker card overall in comparison to Turnabout. But really this is a matter of play style. If you don't aggressively play Blue Sun's Zenith, or even maindeck it, then it isn't as relevant and your split is fine.

In regards to Brain Freeze, I'd never cut it. Ever. It creates too many wins that would otherwise be incredibly difficult to win, especially against the tempo decks that run so many counters. It greatly decreases the pressure on Time Spiral to deliver and also allows you to play far more aggressively after Spiral because you have a much easier route to victory. Capsize requires both a Candelabra and another draw spell to be effective, plus the mana to continually loop it. That's far more resource-intensive than stringing a handful of cantrips and then milling the top 45-48 cards of a deck, which happen naturally through the combo. Not to mention, the Brain Freeze route is vital to win when you lack the ability to generate the levels of mana needed for Blue Sun or Capsize, which happens rather often against blue decks. Granted, Capsize is fine as a bounce spell, but I can't fathom viewing it from the perspective of a win condition, and cutting an actual win condition for it. Cutting a different bounce spell? Sure. But Brain Freeze, I struggle to grasp that. One is a direct (in my case, primary) win condition that will win any non-Emrakul matchup, and the other isn't actually a win condition that still requires at least two more cards and 10+ mana to get you to the point of winning. Huge difference.

Another issue I have with the anti-Brain Freeze argument: if you're straining the deck to rely solely on Blue Sun's Zenith to win, then it greatly affects your lines of play. To me, this is negative. It means being forced to try to combo slower so you can generate more mana pre-Spiral, places much more reliance on Candelabras (and I already talked about how they do get routinely hated) and also means you need to be much more conservative with your mana and spells post-Spiral. Because you don't have a fall back of generating say ~12 mana and milking it down to finish with a Cunning Wish -> Brain Freeze, you are forced to spend time and cards to build mana to continue comboing instead of simply winning the game. Such as burning time just to cast Time Spiral again or needing to use Merchant Scrolls for Turnabouts instead of just killing them. I can pretty much guarantee this would attribute to more losses where wins would have been easily available. Any time you put the deck into a position where you need to absolutely maximize every single post-Spiral draw, you run the risk of affecting the deck's ability to actually win. It just places too much emphasis on the strength of each spell, and places too much value on individual mana to get there. I just strongly, strongly advise to never cut the card.

[feline]

I did some test runs with Capsize in the sideboard, and just about every time where I could wish for it to bounce candel for infinite mana, and then bounce a top for infinite card draw on myself, I could have gotten there without having to do that, or I could have just wished for Brain Freeze and won at that point. I "almost" did a Capsize in the sideboard in place of one of the other bounce spells but after testing, I just felt like it was one of those "win more" cards. I don't know if that helps or not, but in my experience the Capsize is just not necessary. It is fun to bounce all the opponents permanents before a Time Spiral though ha ha.

As for Brain Freeze, I almost never go for that as the kill, so much so that when I first started playing the deck I didn't even run it. Then after some discussion I was basically talked into why I should be running it. Since adding it, I have had times where Brain Freeze got me there where Blue Sun's Zenith wouldn't have, or would have been excessively difficult to do so. One example would be opposing Surgical Extraction on High Tide. If your Islands are only tapping for 2 for a long time because of that, once you get to the 17th spell, depending on the opponent's deck of course, you can just finish with Brain Freeze. While trying to get there with Blue Sun's Zenith can take a lot longer if your islands aren't tapping for 4, 5+ mana.

Also for some reason the list noted in Detroit, only shows 14 sideboard cards, the 15th slot was Flusterstorm. As for Sensei's Divining Tops, they are nice before comboing, so I wanted to add a 3rd to the main deck. But once you start combo'ing off, having multiple in play isn't as exciting, so I might go -1 Top +1 Preordain, since Preordain actually digs and puts dead stuff on the bottom. Very nice while comboing, & very nice in the early turns when you're digging for land or, well anything you need -vs- don't need.

Also I should probably note that every game 2 & 3, In addition to -1 High Tide to the sideboard, I switch it directly almost every time with the Blue Sun's Zenith to the main. The reason I do that is for the same reason the High Tide goes to the sideboard. Possible Surgical Extractions resolving from any opposing deck. If their disruption hits Cunning Wish, then they try to Extract it, I can still have access to a kill spell games 2 & 3. So basically, I have Blue Sun's Zenith in the main deck as well, but it's just never game 1 ^.^

As for more stuff about Detroit:
My 2 losses were to the Shardless Bug player known as Gearheart who made it to the finals, and the Elves player that made the top 16.
Against Gearheart round 5, I fizzled game 1, which happens sometimes, but it caused that loss. Then game 2 they had enough discard to disrupt my hand enough, then at the point of casting a Ponder, they in response played Notion Thief, I had no counters in hand, so it resolved and I pretty much knew at that point I was very likely to lose. Which did happen a few turns later.

As for the Elves player. I won game 1, and I probably shoulda won game 2, but I thought they played a land for the turn already, so I didn't see them having access to White mana. I wanted to at end of turn bounce Gaddock Teeg, so I could go off next turn (Tide & Spiral in hand) But they went to cast a Glimpse of Nature. 3 green mana floating & some elves to do effects for potentially more. So I thought "ok, they have played a land already (which they hadn't actually) and they didn't have access to recast Gaddock Teeg. So I bounce the Teeg now, instead of waiting till end of turn, & then Force of Willed the Glimpse of Nature, since they hade 3+ green mana floating, & 3 cards in hand, I felt it necessary to counter the Glimpse. So it gets countered, they use an elf to untap a creature and bounce a land, then replay the land and replay Gaddock Teeg and I'm like "well crap I messed that up." During this, someone who came up with me to the event was watching and afterward said I could have probably just let Glimpse of Nature resolve and let them try to draw into the Craterhoof Behemoth, then just Force of Will the Craterhoof. They couldn't Natural Order for it or Green Sun's Zenith for it because I had a Grafdigger's Cage in play. I also found out their hand when casting the Glimpse of Nature, which was 2 Green Sun's Zenith and 1 Natural Order, as well their 2 Cabal Therapy's in the graveyard were turned off. Since it was game 2, I believe they didn't side in Abrupt Decay, but I don't know that for 100%. I'm pretty sure they just sided in disruption in the form of discard. Long story short, I very possibly could have won a game I otherwise lost, but at least I know there was a possible route to victory in that match.

[astormbrewing]

I'm loving the discussion, and I'm taking it to heart. This is what I plan on playing in Somerset in a month.

12 Island
6 Fetch

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Time Spiral
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Cunning Wish
3 Flusterstorm
3 Preordain
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith

Sideboard
3 Defense Grid
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Wipe Away
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Intuition
1 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
1 Snap
1 Turnabout

[TiMeWaLk]

Ah. I still favor the third Candelabra over the third Turnabout because when actually comboing it's better in multiples, thus stronger in conjunction with any Turnabouts drawn. Plus, my style of the deck leans on utilizing Blue Sun's Zenith rather often, so creating this opportunity to generate more mana there makes me keep that split. I always want to see multiple Candelabras because the 2x Candelabra ->Turnabout/Hurkyl's/Echoing Truth line just generates so much mana to consistently support a Blue Sun plan. Sometimes it sucks running more because they can get hit with a Needle, but it's a minor risk that is outweighed by the benefit. I just recognize that it's still a weaker card overall in comparison to Turnabout. But really this is a matter of play style. If you don't aggressively play Blue Sun's Zenith, or even maindeck it, then it isn't as relevant and your split is fine.

Ok. This makes a lot of sense to me, and it is nice to see the coherence of your choices with your playstyle.


In regards to Brain Freeze, I'd never cut it. Ever. It creates too many wins that would otherwise be incredibly difficult to win, especially against the tempo decks that run so many counters. It greatly decreases the pressure on Time Spiral to deliver and also allows you to play far more aggressively after Spiral because you have a much easier route to victory. Capsize requires both a Candelabra and another draw spell to be effective, plus the mana to continually loop it. That's far more resource-intensive than stringing a handful of cantrips and then milling the top 45-48 cards of a deck, which happen naturally through the combo. Not to mention, the Brain Freeze route is vital to win when you lack the ability to generate the levels of mana needed for Blue Sun or Capsize, which happens rather often against blue decks. Granted, Capsize is fine as a bounce spell, but I can't fathom viewing it from the perspective of a win condition, and cutting an actual win condition for it. Cutting a different bounce spell? Sure. But Brain Freeze, I struggle to grasp that. One is a direct (in my case, primary) win condition that will win any non-Emrakul matchup, and the other isn't actually a win condition that still requires at least two more cards and 10+ mana to get you to the point of winning. Huge difference.

Another issue I have with the anti-Brain Freeze argument: if you're straining the deck to rely solely on Blue Sun's Zenith to win, then it greatly affects your lines of play. To me, this is negative. It means being forced to try to combo slower so you can generate more mana pre-Spiral, places much more reliance on Candelabras (and I already talked about how they do get routinely hated) and also means you need to be much more conservative with your mana and spells post-Spiral. Because you don't have a fall back of generating say ~12 mana and milking it down to finish with a Cunning Wish -> Brain Freeze, you are forced to spend time and cards to build mana to continue comboing instead of simply winning the game. Such as burning time just to cast Time Spiral again or needing to use Merchant Scrolls for Turnabouts instead of just killing them. I can pretty much guarantee this would attribute to more losses where wins would have been easily available. Any time you put the deck into a position where you need to absolutely maximize every single post-Spiral draw, you run the risk of affecting the deck's ability to actually win. It just places too much emphasis on the strength of each spell, and places too much value on individual mana to get there. I just strongly, strongly advise to never cut the card.

This is a VERY interesting section for me. I remember discussing the role of BF with esthoril (on the old topic and IRL). He was telling me that he was killing his opponents almost always with BF, while I was not the case for me. I removed BF from the sideboard after 2 tournaments because the cards was sitting there, doing nothing:
- Played against S&T.
- Played against BUG with Deathrite. If I let him untap, he would kill me in the upkeep.
- Burn, same about untapping.
I realized that BF was an alternative win condition (not my main as certain players), and I could avoid playing it if I was sure I could generate always enough mana => Capsize. I was really happy with this idea. It went even better as soon as I put Tops in my list. Having 1 Candle and 1 Top meant that a Wish is almost always lethal. In addition, I had 1 extra bounce for free (because BF does nothing on its own).

However, I read your arguments... and I understand that my thinking did not go through every step. I cut one game plan by cutting BF. I will include it in my next tournaments with the deck, but I will have to work on "seeing" the potential kill!

Thx a lot for the discussion.

@feline,

I had the same problem with the extra top. If we could play 2.5 of them, that would be perfect :)

[Di]

This is a VERY interesting section for me. I remember discussing the role of BF with esthoril (on the old topic and IRL). He was telling me that he was killing his opponents almost always with BF, while I was not the case for me. I removed BF from the sideboard after 2 tournaments because the cards was sitting there, doing nothing:
- Played against S&T.
- Played against BUG with Deathrite. If I let him untap, he would kill me in the upkeep.
- Burn, same about untapping.
I realized that BF was an alternative win condition (not my main as certain players), and I could avoid playing it if I was sure I could generate always enough mana => Capsize. I was really happy with this idea. It went even better as soon as I put Tops in my list. Having 1 Candle and 1 Top meant that a Wish is almost always lethal. In addition, I had 1 extra bounce for free (because BF does nothing on its own).

However, I read your arguments... and I understand that my thinking did not go through every step. I cut one game plan by cutting BF. I will include it in my next tournaments with the deck, but I will have to work on "seeing" the potential kill!

The potential for an opponent to kill you on their upkeep does come up on occasion. However if that's the concern, you could still always Brain Freeze them and then send a Blue Sun's Zenith at them for one (or however many to kill them). Still saves you the trouble from having to generate 50+ mana to kill them. Sometimes you just won't have the resources available to pull it off, but in the same context as your Capsize argument, if you had the ability to Capsize, odds are you had the ability to kill them elsewhere.

As far as "seeing" the potential kill, it shouldn't be something you "do," as it should be a natural element of your game plan and be aware of. In general, you should be aware of every single option at all times with the deck. That's a lot easier said than done, but half the difficulty in winning with the deck is just understanding all the aspects of what is available and maximizing your options. But some things to keep in mind:

- You'll likely know what the opponent is playing while you're comboing, so you'll know if they run Emrakul or not. That at least tips you on whether or not the Brain Freeze option is viable.
- Storm should always be tracked regardless, as it's relevant for Flusterstorm. It boggles my mind how there are players who don't track this at all times. But it at least lets you know how close you are.
- Based on how your hand is shaping, you should know within 2-3 spells after casting Time Spiral which kill option to use. I go for Brain Freeze pretty much exclusively if I know it'll get the job done because it's far easier to win with, and requires less resources and time to pull off. For me, the main indicators in knowing are:
• What the storm count's potential can be based off all of my options (without including the opponent interacting). Unless you're positive the opponent is going to make a play, don't include their potential spells in counting.
• How many cards are in the opponent's library.
• How many Cunning Wishes have been used, how many there are immediate access to (in hand/tutors), and how many are still in the deck.
• How much mana you have available, or how much potential mana you have access to. Additionally, if the opponent can interact with mana, be it Needle on Candelabra, or High Tide getting hit by Surgical Extraction.
• How much protection you have access to. Plus if the opponent runs Stifle, and if the kill would require more protection than currently available.
• If you can win without needing to cast Time Spiral again.
• If the opponent can possibly kill you on their upkeep, or use something like Academy Ruins. This basically ties back to how many Cunning Wishes have been used/are available.
• Once all of this is established, it's pretty straight-forward to determine which kill is necessary.

In general I also prefer Brain Freeze because it frees up your choices to be a lot more flexible. When going for Blue Sun's Zenith, you need to focus the cantrips and tutors on additional High Tides and untap effects, and maybe need to Time Spiral a second or third time. With Brain Freeze I'll simply ramp up storm by chaining spell after spell mindlessly while having a better variety of what to look for, and then just Freeze them. It really just makes the deck a lot easier to play because you aren't forced into plays and trying to extend the combo, and it takes half the time to pull off. Granted it is perfectly acceptable, and good practice, to continue comboing if you know you can comfortably kill with Blue Sun's Zenith. It's the safer kill in general, so nothing wrong with going on and doing that. But just saying there's always going to be two options, so it's best to make sure you have access to both of them.

[TiMeWaLk]

If there would be a "like" button, I would use right now! Thanks a lot for the tips. By cutting BF, it seems I made my life easier in terms of choices (1 way to kill), but I make the deck a bit more fragile as a whole. I'll try this if I run the deck again. As you mentioned, it's terribly placed in the current metagame, so I won't play it any time soon I think :(

[feline]

Are you sure it's terribly placed in the current metagame? Technically it has 2 higher placing finishes, in a row, and that hasn't happened in over a year, heck I think a year and a half at this point. It also hasn't top 8'd in over a year, until last weekend at Dallas.

[TiMeWaLk]

I live in France :laugh: We may not speak about the same metagame. It's infested with Elves / Miracles / S&T here...

[Admiral_Arzar]

Are you sure it's terribly placed in the current metagame? Technically it has 2 higher placing finishes, in a row, and that hasn't happened in over a year, heck I think a year and a half at this point. It also hasn't top 8'd in over a year, until last weekend at Dallas.

Yes. The DTB is full of matchups that are either rough but winnable (BUG Delver, RUG Delver), and bad matchups (Miracles, Sneak). There are no "free wins" for this deck anymore, except maybe Jund (and even that deck can sometimes blow you out with double discard into Surgical etc.). This remains my favorite deck in Legacy, but playing it against the current field is a huge headache even if you have the skill/practice to take down the tempo matchups.

Regarding Brain Freeze, I'm going to agree with Di here. When I originally played this deck a few years ago I almost always went for the BSZ win - the more recent times I've played it I've found Brain Freeze to be an infinitely easier win condition to execute. Time Spiralling multiple times with this deck is a trap, as every successive Spiral increases your chances of fizzling. If your first Spiral hand is good, you can often win with BF without a second Spiral - it's incredibly difficult to pull off a BSZ win under those circumstances. Simply put, Brain Freeze allows you to reduce the deck's variance when comboing, as well as win in situations where you simply don't have the resources to BSZ. I would never cut it from the board.

[astormbrewing]

Yes. The DTB is full of matchups that are either rough but winnable (BUG Delver, RUG Delver), and bad matchups (Miracles, Sneak). There are no "free wins" for this deck anymore, except maybe Jund (and even that deck can sometimes blow you out with double discard into Surgical etc.). This remains my favorite deck in Legacy, but playing it against the current field is a huge headache even if you have the skill/practice to take down the tempo matchups.

Miracles is a bad match-up? What about what Di said on the previous page?


Personally, I don't think the Miracles matchup is as bad as it looks on paper. Outside of Counterbalance, their deck is very weak. They have few hard counters, almost no clock, tons of dead cards game one, and only Clique as disruption. I think it's 50-50, maybe 45-55 their favor. That loss in the semis was actually the first time I've lost to the deck in large tournament play. As long as you can navigate around Counterbalance or bait them with things well, it isn't that difficult of a matchup. Obviously easier said than done, but I've done it enough to where I'm still comfortable with the matchup.

Doesn't seem terribly bad. And while I think we aren't in a great position against the meta, I don't think we're in a bad position, either.

[TiMeWaLk]

For once, I disagree with Di. Miracle is a terrible match-up. They have a lot of dead cards in the first game, but they can just steal it with CB (and we only have FoW against it...). Post side, they can have REB and Flusterstorm (usually a mix of both), and they remove a lot of their dead cards. Even Spell pierce is not dead to back-up CB early in the game. Clique can give a decent clock as well, depending on the version.

[feline]

In my experience, my counterbalance opponents have been heavily dependent on whether or not they knew how to play against High Tide. Against most I have actually won, but when I do I know it's cause they don't know the match up as well by playing it out. But going up against very experience miracle players, I have been quite crushed by them. All I know is I want to avoid counterbalance if they know how to play against High Tide, it's a total pain. If I can't combo in the earlier turns, it only gets rougher as time goes on. Obviously of course, if they resolve Counterbalance and such, that's not good. Sometimes I'll get a Wipe Away and when I'm about to at the end of their turn the Balance, they play a second one that turn. If they're smart they won't even let me tutor for a Wipe Away in the first place. Or they will keep a 3 cmc on top just to be prepared for it.

[Di]

Honestly it's a matter of perspective and experience. In my albeit not-so-humble opinion, it's a 50-50 matchup. Though to be fair I've played against the deck for years and have a lot of experience against Counterbalance, so I'm comfortable playing it. Although I'll be the first to admit though that my perspective and insight into it are a bit skewed, as I'm at the point where I literally don't walk into a single matchup worried about it. So in that sense, take my numbers with a grain of salt. But I certainly wouldn't consider it easy to beat, and it's among the toughest matchups you can face.

However that all said, pilot skill is incredibly relevant in terms of how that plays out. If you're an inexperienced High Tide player, or even an adequate High Tide player who simply hasn't played against the deck very often, it can be quite difficult. It's just a matter of learning how to play against the deck, and play specifically against Counterbalance. Technically you could make the same argument for any other matchup though. But in general, you take Counterbalance outside of the equation and it is a cakewalk, as they have a handful of counters you can deal with followed by a glacially slow clock. It's just one of those decks you have to have an extremely intimate understanding of though, and that kind of preparation is rather difficult to achieve.

Additionally, I'd stand firmly on my notion that the deck is rather horribly positioned in the meta. Despite the recent success Feline and myself has seen, it really isn't an indicator of the deck's performance. Prior to her top16, how many SCG events in a row did she not place with or do poorly with beforehand? Not a knock against her at all, but illustrating the point that it's just tough to be successful with the deck in this metagame. The prior SCG I played back in November, I went 2-3 drop and was destroyed in all my losses. In the recent SCG Dallas, despite winning most rounds 2-0 and going into top8 as the #1 seed, almost every single game was difficult. I played against either a blue deck or a deck with discard (or in three cases, both) eight out of the nine rounds. That's incredibly punishing over the course of a long tournament, and makes each round a struggle to win. Not saying it isn't doable, as we recently proved it is, but when you have to go through so many hurdles to do well with it I would make the case that it likely isn't a good choice. Furthermore, I'd also be skeptical to accept the deck's results as encouraging because it was her and I who placed with it. We're among the most dedicated and best players in the world with the deck, and have been playing it arguably the longest. So we were bound to spike eventually. But until I see it do well on a semi-regular basis in the hands of other people (or rather completely random people, not a Michael Bernat or Matthias Hunt type), then I'll continue to remain steadfast that it isn't a good choice. And I'd put my money on that side, because I don't think it's wise for people to invest their $40 entry and a long-ass day to play the deck against a wall of discard and counters unless they're extremely comfortable with it. Because otherwise, their odds are far better if they choose virtually any other deck.

[astormbrewing]

I'd also be skeptical to accept the deck's results as encouraging because it was her and I who placed with it. We're among the most dedicated and best players in the world with the deck, and have been playing it arguably the longest. So we were bound to spike eventually. But until I see it do well on a semi-regular basis in the hands of other people (or rather completely random people, not a Michael Bernat or Matthias Hunt type), then I'll continue to remain steadfast that it isn't a good choice. And I'd put my money on that side, because I don't think it's wise for people to invest their $40 entry and a long-ass day to play the deck against a wall of discard and counters unless they're extremely comfortable with it. Because otherwise, their odds are far better if they choose virtually any other deck.

Unfortunately this doesn't discourage me. And who knows, maybe the meta will shift slightly in a month (SCG Somerset). High Tide is the deck I'm most familiar with, though its far less than both you and Feline.

I'll try to be that random person for you.

[Di]

To be honest I don't intend to discourage anyone from playing the deck, and actively root for anybody willing to run it. I'm just a realist in the sense that I know how much of an uphill battle it is given that there are so few simple matchups and how frustrating the deck can be to play when you struggle so much to win. At the very least, people should be fully aware of what they're getting into when making that decision.

That said, I salute you Mr. astormisbrewing. Now go be that next person to put the deck on the map and make a name for yourself. :)

[clavio]

Swan Song seems better than flusterstorm right now. There are times when elves will be able to afford to pay for all the flusterstorm copies and natural order resolves where a swan song would have just countered it outright. A show and tell player will also be able to pay for flusterstorm in certain circumstances and flusterstorm does not counter sneak attack. Same goes for decks that run hymn and deathrite (and probably surgical extraction game two and three). Swans counters counterbalance which is relevant right now. While comboing off flusterstorm will only be better than swansong in corner cases, and there are practical cases where swan song is much better.

[princeofperasia]

Someone mentioned in BoM chat that Lejay is on PiF high tide. No idea if it's true or not though, but he's making a run for top 8 either way.

[feline]

Someone mentioned in BoM chat that Lejay is on PiF high tide. No idea if it's true or not though, but he's making a run for top 8 either way.

I like hearing that it's High Tide regardless ^.^

[princeofperasia]

Someone mentioned in BoM chat that Lejay is on PiF high tide. No idea if it's true or not though, but he's making a run for top 8 either way.

Ah nevermind sorry, he's on Bug

[TiMeWaLk]

Swan Song seems better than flusterstorm right now. There are times when elves will be able to afford to pay for all the flusterstorm copies and natural order resolves where a swan song would have just countered it outright. A show and tell player will also be able to pay for flusterstorm in certain circumstances and flusterstorm does not counter sneak attack. Same goes for decks that run hymn and deathrite (and probably surgical extraction game two and three). Swans counters counterbalance which is relevant right now. While comboing off flusterstorm will only be better than swansong in corner cases, and there are practical cases where swan song is much better.

If it would not give my opponent a 2/2, I would run a playset of the card over Fluster. However, you cannot afford to have 1 or 2 2/2 on the board early in certain match-ups. I would run 2 Swan Song maximum in the main for this reason.

[clavio]

Rushing river seems good against multiple hate permanents. I'm probably going to drop E.Truth for it.

[feline]

SCGCIN was both days for me this time. 73rd or 74th for Standard playing UW control & I know I could have had more wins if I actually prepared for the format, was actually motivating for me for future potential Standard Opens. As for the High Tide news, placed 40th on Sunday. Was undefeated until round 6, then lost 3 in a row to Patriot, Counterbalance, Counterbalance. Round 9 was fun, my opponent, with permission, allowed me to "go nuts" as I called it, & I got to a point of Blue Sun's Zenith'ing them for 2,500 something cards, still 10 minutes on the clock when it was done, winning the match 2-0.

Looking at a last minute hit for SCGKnoxville. Pretty sure I'm doing Indy as well, & potentially Somerset, Providence, or even both before the Invitational in Columbus in June. Which somehow, will actually be my first Invitational attempt.

-edit- Also, maybe I've lost my mind to even say this, but I am now considering going from, 1-2 opens every month or to, to potentially the next 9 in a row. If I can actually pull this off, I will keep informed, I suppose the first stop will be Knoxville.

[Isidiel]

thx to Feline for this awesome primer and gz for the nice results!

I did start recently to play a bit with high tide (im having a lot of fun with it!)
and im curious about the opinions of more experienced players about 2 cards

first is Dakra Mystic, that im using as cheap replacement to Top. She is actually performing admirabily well... the card activation is quite similar but the additional card every turn seem to help quite a bit to go reliably off with some added protection... it even offer some filtering (not as good as top ofc) and can mess with the opponent draws or top and jump in front of a goyf if needed... ofc as a creature is easier to deal with and vs dredge maybe is not a good idea to use her but overall she seem to do well.

the other card is quicken... to my nooby eye it seem to have such a huge potential, setting up an instant time spiral in response to a tutor effect making it possible (i think :P) to tutor after the spiral resolved and with perfect information of our new hand. the tradeoff seem to be a stronger pre spiral setup vs post spiral stability that to me seem to be generally more important... but i noticed that there are no lists running it, even as just 1 copy in the main or sb to tutor for if thers the chance for a setup and was quite curious about that.

thx for the help! and sorry for my bad english :/

[Isaac]

Been busy with a ton of things and haven't been to any tournaments recently but later on today I will ride the tides for a mox. I'll post how I did later on.

[astormbrewing]

Hope things went well for you Isaac.

One week until Feline and I rock High Tide at Somerset. Hopefully there'll be a couple more.

[JPoJohnson]

Hope things went well for you Isaac.

One week until Feline and I rock High Tide at Somerset. Hopefully there'll be a couple more.

Would love reports of sorts from you guys (:

[astormbrewing]

Would love reports of sorts from you guys (:

I've never been the greatest at writing reports, but I definitely want to try! I'll do my best to keep adequate notes.

[feline]

I haven't been doing tournament reports lately because I've been doing more SCG's, as well when I'm settled down between events I am stocked on time pushing as many alters as I can get done. Then when I get tired of that I want some fun time before I go to bed, usually something to do with playing magic, or something for entertainment for a few hours before sleep.

[JPoJohnson]

I'd settle for a brief paragraph review. Strong points, weak points, tough matches and thoughts on the decks performance? (:

[Isaac]

I went 2-2-1 then dropped. Won my first two matches then in round 3 I faced dnt and while I still think it's a favorable match up I lost 0-2. Game one I comboed off then fizzled and game two he had two hate bears for me to deal with. I then had the pleasure of facing the mirror in round 4. Game 1 I brain freezed him then game 2 I made the mistake of not paying for a pact which has never up until that moment happened to me. I could blame it on working till 6am the day of the tournament but in retrospective I think I was over confident and it back fired on me. Next round I felt even worse as I wanted a cig and mainly for the day to just be over and after a long game 1 I punted game 2 and went to time on game 3. So at the 5 turn clock I couldn't combo off and he had me dead to rites on the field with iona and gristlebrand. Truth be told I really didn't want to continue with the tournament feeling as bad as I was so I just let him have it. He did top though so I'm glad my nice gesture wasn't for nothing.

My current list is basically the old one I was running with mystic remora main as a two of. I cant express how insane this card is. Your opponents have no idea how to play against it when it lands. You auto win against any storm based deck and I have never lost in a combo match when that has hit the table. Top really had been performing underwhelming for me. I tried it a few months ago at a local event and I wished every single time I played it that it was remora for the drawl. If you haven't tested it try it out and if you have and list top better cool cool different strokes for different folks.

[astormbrewing]

I went 2-2-1 then dropped. Won my first two matches then in round 3 I faced dnt and while I still think it's a favorable match up I lost 0-2. Game one I comboed off then fizzled and game two he had two hate bears for me to deal with. I then had the pleasure of facing the mirror in round 4. Game 1 I brain freezed him then game 2 I made the mistake of not paying for a pact which has never up until that moment happened to me. I could blame it on working till 6am the day of the tournament but in retrospective I think I was over confident and it back fired on me. Next round I felt even worse as I wanted a cig and mainly for the day to just be over and after a long game 1 I punted game 2 and went to time on game 3. So at the 5 turn clock I couldn't combo off and he had me dead to rites on the field with iona and gristlebrand. Truth be told I really didn't want to continue with the tournament feeling as bad as I was so I just let him have it. He did top though so I'm glad my nice gesture wasn't for nothing.

My current list is basically the old one I was running with mystic remora main as a two of. I cant express how insane this card is. Your opponents have no idea how to play against it when it lands. You auto win against any storm based deck and I have never lost in a combo match when that has hit the table. Top really had been performing underwhelming for me. I tried it a few months ago at a local event and I wished every single time I played it that it was remora for the drawl. If you haven't tested it try it out and if you have and list top better cool cool different strokes for different folks.

I've played with Mystic Remora in the past, but coming out of the sideboard. It felt nice, but also sort of narrow. I will give it props for being the reason I beat Solidarity a few months ago, a match we should always lose. If I actually played the deck a lot nowadays, I'd try it. But since I'm only playing once every few months, I'm sticking to what I'm comfortable with.

[Isidiel]

DnT is giving me nightmares too :/ the more aggressive list is ok but i have lot of troubles to deal with the 4 main spirit of the labyrinth list. i was looking for something to tutor to deal with it + another hatebear or vial but so far i have not found anything.

btw i tried the quicken in different config... 1-2 in main or 1 in sideboard and i see why is not used :P when it works it is great but most of the time is not a card you want to draw and most of the time it need lot of resources to use it, resources that generally can be used for counters or to go off with a blue sun zenith.

[clavio]

DnT is giving me nightmares too :/ the more aggressive list is ok but i have lot of troubles to deal with the 4 main spirit of the labyrinth list. i was looking for something to tutor to deal with it + another hatebear or vial but so far i have not found anything.


Swan song!

[feline]

Probably the biggest change I've made to a High Tide list since I've been playing the deck. If I have success with this I will talk more about it after the next event. But if I don't I will have to keep it a secret until it does help, or I give up on the idea. Though in testing it has already proved itself to be a nice strategy. Basically, I'll get more into it in time, at a later date, but for now I'm crossing my fingers and keeping my mouth shut. Maybe it'll work this weekend, if it does and it gets top 16 listed if I pull that off, then the list will be out there and I'll just have to talk about it at that point.

[ScatmanX]

Swan song!
Spell Snare also stops Cannonist =p

[Isidiel]

thx atm im running a swan song in the board, i will try replacing a flusterstorm or one of the tops (i really dont like them)

even spell snare seem a nice idea and it hit all the hatebears i will give it a try too :)

and gl to Feline and everyone else attending to scgnj!

[clavio]

Spell Snare is bad here. It hits cannonist but it misses way too many spells that swan song hits.

[Isaac]

Played for a time twister today and went 1-2-1. Tied in round one against miracles after loosing game 1 then comboing off after he ultimate jaced me in game 2. The second game I had on board defence grid on his turn he cliqued me then jaced. My hand was 5 consisting of time spiral x3 candle and a fetch. I had enough cantrips plus 1 high tide and one cunning wish in the yard to storm off. Round 2 was against merfolk. His list was splashing white and I dunno why never came across his white threats. Then I lost in round 3 against esper death blade and round 4 didn't matter much so I didn't care to much. Added in a third remora in place of the second bounce spell. The side needs work defiantly.

[Hopo]

Regarding SCG livefeed: Feline Longmore's resolution of spells and graveyard order is consistently sloppy. She always puts the spell in the graveyard first, then does the actual effect of the spell.
I wouldn't mind as that is probably the most common gameplay error in the game, but I've gotten the impression from this thread that she is somehow a very pedant and technical player.

[dcollins]

Regarding SCG livefeed: Feline Longmore's resolution of spells and graveyard order is consistently sloppy. She always puts the spell in the graveyard first, then does the actual effect of the spell.
I wouldn't mind as that is probably the most common gameplay error in the game, but I've gotten the impression from this thread that she is somehow a very pedant and technical player.

Based on what I saw, without having watched the match on stream, you seem to be describing out-of-order sequencing, which is perfectly legal and supported by tournament rules as long as the graveyard order is correct. It is not sloppy, it is about efficient use of time.



After working day 1 of the Somerset open, I played a few rounds of Legacy and figured I'd share my observations. I'll be at Providence in two weeks, likely with the same plan. Today's build was Candel-free and Cloud-free, splashing red for Epic Experiment (2x) and Past in Flames (1x), running a maindeck BSZ, 4/2/2 Force/Flusterstorm/Rewind, 4/4/4 Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain, with a set of Defense Grid and Grafdigger's Cage in the board.

General comments - I liked this build in goldfishing and some limited playtesting, and have to blame my losses today primarily on inexperience, especially in certain matchups. I still really like the red splash, but of course need to refrain from committing too far in that direction due to Wasteland.

Round 1: Tezzeret Control
I think this is a pretty good matchup for us. The objective here seems to involve getting artifacts into play, turning them into 5/5s, and punching you in the face. I saw a maindeck Phyrexian Revoker game one, naming JTMS. My opponent had seen a fetch, 2 basic islands, and I believe a ponder at that point, so I'm not sure what he thought I was playing, or if that's just his default name against decks with blue - I think he had enough information to name Candel at that point, so maybe he wasn't familiar with High Tide. As I'm facing down a 3 turn clock, I wait as long as possible before going off. 4 lands, 1 HT, 1 Turnabout, 1 Epic Experiment. Experiment for 10 turns over lands and cantrips and I'm out of mana and dead. I'm not sure what the right play is here - when you only have 8-12 mana, Experiment for everything and hope to get a Turnabout, Spiral, or Rewind, or Experiment for all but 4 so I can cantrip or Scroll into some sort of untap effect. Once I have enough mana, I always keep at least 6 up, plus costs for any Flusterstorms I may have if I expect I'll have to fight to get the Experiment to resolve. Game 2, he hits me for 5 with a Dimir Charm, plays a Trinisphere, and then animates the Trinisphere the next turn, bringing me to 4. He didn't realize that this turns off the Trinisphere. 5 lands, 2 HT, Spiral, Wish into Brain Freeze with 12 storm copies, BSZ for 9. Game 3 I'm locked down with a Chalice on 1, a Trinisphere, and a Clique taking my Wish before I'm able to get to Hurkyl's Recall.
1-2

Round 2: Death and Taxes
I feel like this should be a difficult matchup. I especially have a problem with Wasteland, Candel decks have a problem with Revoker, and everyone has a problem with Thalia, Spirit of the Labyrinth, and Canonist. Game 1, Thalia does a good job slowing me down and I can't get there. This was another game where I had Revoker name Jace against me. Games 2 and 3, Wasteland prevents me from using my red package, but we still get there. Game 2: 2 HT, Spiral, 3 HT, BSZ for 50. Game 3 is closer, but we still handily allow our opponent to draw their entire deck with a full minute left in the round.
2-1

Round 3: Burn
This should be an easy matchup for us, but sometimes the cards are just against you. Game 1 I wait as long as possible, which turns out to be too long. 2 HT, Turnabout, and Spiral (after some confusion as to what Spiral even does) draws my opponent a Sudden Shock. Game 2, my opponent plays a Pyrostatic Pillar. I counter it. He plays two more. I can bounce 1, but I can't fight through 2.
0-2

Round 4: Affinity
This was a pretty fun match. In both cases my opponent was able to get to a pretty decent board state. Wish into Hurkyl's Recall is a good way to delay, but not as much as I would like. As far as I know, they have no access to haste, so the best time to do this would be on their end step, forcing them to then discard to hand size, and maybe buying you more than one turn. Other than that, this match was fairly uninteractive. She hit me with her artifacts for a few turns, then I let her draw all of her cards. Game 1 is strictly blue, 5 lands, 2 HT, Spiral, we wind up with islands tapping for 7 and a lethal BSZ. Game 2 we use both colors and don't have to Spiral - Experiment into Past in Flames into BSZ. Living the dream.
2-0

Round 5: Imperial Painter
He got his combo before I got mine. Game 2 he gets a pretty amazing draw. I counter a grindstone, he plays a second one, he plays painter, I bounce the second grindstone in response, but he's able to get the first one back with Goblin Welder.
0-2

A few observations - we just don't have the sideboard slots available to be worth bringing in Leyline of Sanctity AND Grafdigger's Cage AND Defense Grid, which means we're relying on countermagic and bounce in at least one of these situations. I'm wondering if it's worth keeping a third Wish maindeck even with the maindeck BSZ. I'm leaning towards no, but it's there as an option.

I watched one of Feline's matches (against Omni-Tell, round 4?) and realized I have a long way to go in terms of being able to play quickly and track mana counts. Of course, I also watched the High Tide match that went 15 minutes over time that same round, and realized it's possible to do a lot worse. I suppose it's just practice and drills.

I've thought about having the ability to go back to mono blue against the wasteland decks. I'd need to board out 2 Experiment, 1 PiF, and probably 2 Rewind, as they lose a lot of value when you aren't hitting them with Experiment. Bringing in a Pact, and a Flusterstorm is a start, but I don't want to bring in any other one-ofs, and these are the matchups where Defense Grid and Grafdigger's Cage are both useless. Keeping in Rewind (using it to counter a Cantrip as Turnabouts 5 and 6) works, but I feel like Rewind and Experiment are most valuable as a package.

[Hopo]

When you have to dig back to your graveyard when someone wants to counter your spells, I call it sloppy.

Of course it's no different to how many people play. Just making notes here.

[astormbrewing]

I ended up going 0-3 drop yesterday at Somerset. It was disappointing, but I had been fighting a cold for three days, and I was hungover from Saturday night. I probably shouldn't have played Sunday.

R1 vs Maverick with Dark Depths (0-2, 0-1 overall)
Game 1 I mulled to 6, and he created a 20/20 on my T3 end step, and I didn't have Cunning Wish in my hand. Sometimes you just die.
-1 Preordain -1 Swan Song +1 Snap +1 Wipe Away
Game 2 we both mulled to 6. He played Mom T1 and tried to play Thalia T2, but I Forced it. Next turn he played Canonist, so I Wished for Hurkyl's Recall (to get around Mom). However, despite having a Sensei's Divining Top in play and casting a couple draw spells, I failed to find a 4th land to be able to Recall on his turn and then combo on my turn (had High Tide and Time Spiral in hand). Eventually he landed Teeg and I died.

R2 vs BUG (no Delver, no Shardless) (1-2, 0-2 overall)
Game 1 I combo'd with relative ease.
High Tide -> Time Spiral -> High Tide -> Candelabra of Tawnos -> Blue Sun's Zenith (target myself for 9?) -> Brainstorm -> Turnabout -> Brainstorm* -> Ponder -> Preordain -> Merchant Scroll (for High Tide) -> High Tide -> Cunning Wish (for Turnabout) -> Turnabout -> Sensei's Divining Top -> Merchant Scroll (for Cunning Wish) -> Cunning Wish (for Brain Freeze) -> Brain Freeze (storm 18)
*Brainstorming here was a poor sequence of plays (since I had just Brainstormed and drew the two cards I put back). Another example of why I should have taken the day off since I felt miserable.
-3 Preordain +3 Defense Grid (I saw him board in like 9 cards, so I assumed they were counters)
Game 2 I completely screwed up. I led with an Island and cast Ponder rather than hold up Brainstorm. He then cast Hymn to Tourach, so now I couldn't hide my spells. Instead, I decided to try and Force it and Hymn myself essentially, but I walked into a Swan Song and got blown out. I died shortly thereafter.
Game 3 had me mulligan to 6, and I eventually tried to combo with 5 lands in play. My hand consisted of High Tide, Time Spiral, and Flusterstorm (he had also exiled two Merchant Scrolls and a Brainstorm with Deathrite Shaman). In response to my Time Spiral, he cast Surgical Extraction targeting High Tide. I thought for a bit, but decided I could still combo post-Spiral with 5 lands and 1 active High Tide, and that he was trying to bait out my counter so he could counter Time Spiral. However, he allowed Time Spiral to resolve. Unfortunately, I drew zero draw spells; with my High Tides exiled, I conceded.

R3 vs NO Elves (0-2, 0-3 overall)
Game 1 I countered a Natural Order, but he then played Glimpse of Nature and hard cast Craterhoof to kill me.
-1 Swan Song -1 Flusterstorm +1 Snap +1 Echoing Truth
Game 2 I mulled to 6 and he landed a Teeg at some point. I was drawing poorly and feeling bad, so I don't remember a whole lot from this game.

Again, it was disappointing, but I felt bad so I can't be upset. Feline had an incredible idea about the deck, but I'll wait for her to divulge that information. Either way, I'm continuing on her idea to create a new list that is quite different from anything we've seen.

[entreri_fans]

in this SCG, it seems Feline is running Counter Balance in Spiral Tide.

what a creative idea! so curious to know how it works?

[Infinitium]

I remember trying it out a few years back in Spiral Tide (along with the then-maligned Top). Never got it to work properly since unlike Uxx control decks you can never buy yourself quite enough time in order to leverage its advantage, and if used for combo protection another cheap counterspell would usually have worked as well in its place. Will be interested in reading her experience with it.

[astormbrewing]

I remember trying it out a few years back in Spiral Tide (along with the then-maligned Top). Never got it to work properly since unlike Uxx control decks you can never buy yourself quite enough time in order to leverage its advantage, and if used for combo protection another cheap counterspell would usually have worked as well in its place. Will be interested in reading her experience with it.

From speaking with her on Sunday, she really liked it. That is what I am working on (Counterbalance in the main). Also had dinner with Matthias Hunt and we talked about making High Tide more control/combo than just combo.

[dcollins]

Counterbalance had crossed my mind, but only for a fleeting moment. I figured that getting it in play is going to slow us down, and having enough in the deck to consistently hit it is going to inhibit our combo. I'm glad it worked for Feline, but since I didn't see it in the matches I saw, I assume she was only running 1 or 2 this time around. It would be interesting to have as a one-of in the main, possibly siding in copies 2 and 3 instead of our Flusterstorms or a maindeck Pact.

I stopped playing Tops - I wanted the extra Preordains, figuring there's no point looking at the top 3 cards if you can't do anything about the fact that they don't help you. I'd consider adding them back in as an insurance policy against bad Time Spiral draws with Counterbalance as a bonus. I wonder how you feel about our curve from a Counterbalance standpoint. We have more 1-drops than Miracles but only a handful of 2s and 3s.

Edit - as an added thought, is it worth going to 8 fetches for a few more shuffles?

[astormbrewing]

Counterbalance had crossed my mind, but only for a fleeting moment. I figured that getting it in play is going to slow us down, and having enough in the deck to consistently hit it is going to inhibit our combo. I'm glad it worked for Feline, but since I didn't see it in the matches I saw, I assume she was only running 1 or 2 this time around. It would be interesting to have as a one-of in the main, possibly siding in copies 2 and 3 instead of our Flusterstorms or a maindeck Pact.

She played 4, but they were all sideboard.

[JDK]

From speaking with her on Sunday, she really liked it. That is what I am working on (Counterbalance in the main). Also had dinner with Matthias Hunt and we talked about making High Tide more control/combo than just combo.

You should try to stick with one build and learn how to play it properly. It seems you are constantly jumping on bandwagons at first sight.

[Pox22]

Played High Tide in a small event at an LGS—went 3-1 with this 75:

2x Candelabra of Tawnos
2x Sensei’s Divining Top
1x Blue Sun’s Zenith
3x Cunning Wish
4x High Tide
1x Meditate
4x Merchant Scroll
4x Time Spiral
3x Turnabout
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
2x Preordain
3x Flusterstorm
4x Force of Will
1x Misdirection
12x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Scalding Tarn

1x Blue Sun’s Zenith
1x Brain Freeze
1x Echoing Truth
1x Intuition
1x Pact of Negation
1x Rebuild
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Swan Song
1x Turnabout
1x Wipe Away
2x Defense Grid
2x Grafdigger’s Cage

I was trying out Mystic Remora in place of Top as per Isaac’s suggestion, but switched back to Top vs all the discard in my meta. I like being able to sculpt a hand back into order after getting ripped apart, rather than just drawing a random for the trouble of sinking my mana into it.


Round 1: James with UR Standard Counter-Burn
This match isn’t particularly meaningful—he was hanging around the store wanting to play standard, and decided he’d rather enter in the legacy event with his weird burn deck splashing blue for Cyclonic Rift and Keranos. I won pretty easily both games.

2-0, 1-0

SB: N/A

Amusingly, when it got out that he was on a standard deck, another player on Sneak & Show reached into his bag and pulled out his extra legacy deck—affinity, and handed it to the guy. It was a small weekly event at our LGS, so no one cared if he switched. Always good to encourage new players, and he ended up finishing 3-1 with it!

Round 2: Lucien with 12post
I knew he was on 12post as I saw him jamming some games while he had the bye last round. I’ve never played against 12post, but imagined it wouldn’t be too difficult.

He mulled down to 6, and I kept my 7. I sculpted with cantrips and dropped a Candelabra on turn 3—with Force, Turnabout, High Tide, Time Spiral. He goes for his own Candelabra, generates 5GG off of posts and a single Trop—and plays Primeval Titan with one card in hand. I Force, pitching Turnabout and proceed to go off next turn—ultimately with Blue Sun’s Zenith due to the Eldrazi.

SB: +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Swan Song, -1 Flusterstorm, -1 Misdirection

I wasn’t exactly sure how to side as I have no idea what 12post generally brings in. I didn’t know if I needed to play against Chalice, counters, Sphere of Resistance, Surgical Extraction, etc. I suppose if I feared Surgical Extraction, I should have sided out a High Tide.

Game 2 was a simple affair. I had 2 Islands, Candelabra, Flusterstorm, High Tide, Time Spiral, Turnabout. I draw into a cantrip, and see 2 lands and a top. He goes for a turn 4 Show and Tell—I let it resolve because there wasn’t anything he could bring in that would kill me that turn—and the extra land-drop off the S&T would let me go off with Flusterstorm back up on my turn. He puts in a Primeval Titan, fetching 2 Cloudposts, and passed the turn. I untap, flip Top for my fifth land, High Tide, Turnabout, cast Time Spiral and then Flusterstorm’d his Mindbreak Trap. I went off in an unexciting fashion.

2-0, 2-0

Round 3: Matt with Aluren
Aluren’s combo is weird, their beatdown plan is slow, and I feel like the only card I care about is Force of Will and Cabal Therapy—the latter moreso.

Game 1 is boring—he only had a Force to interact, and I had a turn 4 kill with Flusterstorm to protect it.

SB: +1 Swan Song, +1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Wipe Away, -1 High Tide, -1 Misdirection, -1 Preordain

Game 2 was miserable—I sculpt with cantrips. On turn 3, my hand is High Tide, Force, Blue Sun’s Zenith, Cunning Wish, Island. He plays Cabal Therapy on High Tide, and hits. He sacrifices a Baleful Strix to flashback, hitting Cunning Wish. He then Shardless Agent’s into another Therapy, hitting Force. He gets enough damage in before I can rebuild.

Game 3 was similarly miserable. I keep a one-lander with Island, High Tide, High Tide, Force of Will, Brainstorm, Turnabout, Time Spiral. He Forces my Brainstorm, I force back—pitching High Tide, which might have been wrong. Brainstorm resolves, seeing Island, Misty, Sensei’s Top. I go for it turn 4, and he Forces—pitching Force. I draw-go for two or three turns and spin top. He has dropped some creatures and has been getting in for damage. He knocks me down to 8 with Shardless Agents, Baleful Strix and Coiling Oracle and has an untapped Deathrite Shaman—so I’m dead next turn. I had found High Tide off a Ponder shuffle and topdeck the Time Spiral—but he had his 4th Force of Will and took the match.

1-2, 2-1

Round 4: Josh with Miracles
Josh and I jam the miracles match-up a lot in and out of tournaments with me usually on TES or High Tide. I feel like I think this match-up is a lot worse than it actually is.

Game 1 is rough for him—I win the roll, he mulls to 6, and he elects to Force my turn 1 Sensei’s Divining Top. We discussed this play after the match, and I go back and forth on it. He lands his own top, but no Counterbalance. He’s slogging through his maindeck Swords and Terminuses while I go off turn 4 with Flusterstorm, Flusterstorm, Misdirection backup against his single Force of Will. He scoops early in the interest of time. My post-spiral hand was stacked with business and counters to his single Force.

SB: +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Swan Song, +1 Surgical Extraction, +2 Defense Grid, -1 Flusterstorm, -1 High Tide, -1 Misdirection, -2 Preordain

Not sure if this sb’ing was correct—I wanted Swan Song for Counterbalance, Echoing Truth as a md bounce spell for aforementioned Counterbalance and Angel tokens. I figured Wipe Away is better in the board because 3cc is harder to hit on Counterbalance—so I would rather wish for Wipe Away than Merchant Scroll for it. 3cc counters both Cunning Wish and Wipe Away, so bringing Echoing Truth to the main gives me 2cc and 3cc answers to Counterbalance. I wasn’t sure if he had Surgical, and needed something to board out, I went with High Tide as the last card out. Not sure if cutting Preordains was correct, but couldn’t think of any other cards I wanted less. Dropping a Flusterstorm felt wrong (and I'm pretty sure it was), but I figured it was all a net-gain of counters and disruption--and I was a bit lost on what else to take out.

Game 2 was interesting as he again took a mulligan. He starts with a Flooded Strand and passes. I play a turn 1 top, and drop Candelabra the turn after. He plays his own top on turn 2, and a Counterbalance on his next turn. I’m not too worried as my hand is stacked—a pair of High Tides, a pair of Time Spirals, a Cunning Wish and a Turnabout. He taps out for Jace, the Mind Sculptor, fateseals me, and puts a Ponder on the bottom which I see after cracking a fetch. As he’s tapped out, I feel like I can go for it on 5 lands—only if there isn’t a 1cc card on top, as I can High Tide again in response to him flipping his top to counter the first. I also have 2 Time Spirals and the mana to cast them, so I can fight through a Force. I High Tide, he lets it go. I High Tide again, he lets it go. I play the Brainstorm I drew for the turn, he lets it go. I Turnabout, no response. I think to myself that he clearly knows what’s on top but also doesn’t care about my High Tides—which leads me to conclude that he either has a 3cc on top to counter Cunning Wish or a Terminus on top to counter Time Spiral. I then lead with the Cunning Wish for Wipe Away—if he has a 3cc on top for it, I can safely Time Spiral—and then Spiral again if he has a Force. He reveals his tech—Turn//Burn—to counter the Wish, and then I go off with Time Spiral. He doesn’t draw a Force and I easily build storm and wish for Brain Freeze.

2-0, 3-1

Got some store credit for my efforts and felt pretty good about my rounds.

As for my 75, I recently cut a Candelabra for Turnabout just to see how it runs. I’ll switch it back for local proxy events, but want to see how 2 Candelabras feel as I’m about to pull to trigger on 2 and can’t always play with proxies. I’m testing Misdirection in place of my md bounce spell (usually Wipe Away) as a lot of players have picked up BUG Delver around here and there are so many Hymn to Tourachs flying around. Meditate is my last flex spot and I’ve really been liking it. It’s a lot more mana-efficient than Blue Sun’s Zenith when I’m just starting to go off and it’s been solid for me.

So I guess a more traditional list would be something like…-1 Meditate, -1 Misdirection, -1 Turnabout, +1 Candelabra of Tawnos, +1 Sensei’s Divining Top/Preordain, +1 Wipe Away.

My sideboard also has a few flex spots that I’m figuring out.

Thanks for any insights in advance--I’ll try to take more dedicated notes in the future.

-Anthony

[feline]

Well I had a nice large post with lots of info but it got eaten, so lets try this again and hope I remembered everything:

I like the idea of drawing counterspells out of the opponents deck before comboing, so I can save all my mana on the combo turn for just that, comboing, which is most vital getting that first Spiral off. I also like comboing with as much protection as possible, always getting as much protection as I can before each Spiral/Blue Sun Zenith. I like Defense Grid, but I didn't like how the Defense Grid's could not really come in against opposing combo decks, & on top of that, resolving High Tides gives them potential mana to pay to cast more counters until they're tapped out. Once they're tapped out a Force of Will here and there are much easier to deal with. Constantly thinking about different things with the deck as it's on my mind even more so this year than in the past, as I am now officially going SCG nuts, I recently came across the idea of running Counterbalance potentially in the list, which I may of both thought of & dismissed some time in the past.

~Counterbalance in the sideboard was a 4 of, cut Cage/Grids completely. Cage only ever came in against elves, as I never go against reanimator / dredge ever, somehow I've managed to Never go against Dredge live at the open series. Counterbalance is even more ridiculous against elves than cage was, & Counterbalance can come in when Defense Grid can come in, as well as in matches where I didn't want to bring in the Grids.

In cutting Candelabras for Counterbalance, We slow down, but we also potentially slow the opponent down. On top of that, the Sensei's Top are useful from the beginning, look for lands early if needed, then continue onto whatever you want. with counterbalance the Sensei's Top's are just dumb good! Then after that, TimeSpiral means seeing 10 cards instead of 7, and the top always stays in play. For Counterbalance, They can draw out a counter, or resolve, then protect you comboing, or even just sitting and waiting for more land drops. When comboing, like the tops, the Counterbalance's always stay in play which is also awesome. Potentially fizzling off a spiral is at the same time potentially decreased with a top in play seeing cards 8-9-10, and on top of that, them drawing into countermagic becomes easier to navigate when you have a counterbalance staying in play the whole time, sometimes not even having to use any countermagic from the hand at all to shield theirs from hitting your spells.

From that, I added 4 Counterbalance to the sideboard, & brought the list to the Open Series this weekend in New Jersey:

They came in on the first round against a RWU delver deck, game 2 I played a turn 2 top, turn 3 Counterbalance, then flusterstormed a Red Blast, allowing the Counterbalance to get into play. From there I sat back, let myself get to more Islands and then went off after drawing cards & just setting myself up. Having a Force of Will on top is awesome when you don't even have to cast it, just reveal off trigger.

Against Show and Tell I was not bringing them in because doing so I was cutting Candels. With that, the main untap effects are solely Turnabout & Time Spiral, more spirals increase the chance to potentially fizzle, so I'd want to aim more for Brain Freeze. However you don't want to Brain Freeze an Emrakul deck.

The real stick out match of the day for me however was the last round. I was playing against Esperblade. Game 1 was won and it went to game 2, I went with the -4 Candel +4 Counterbalance plan (As well as the -1 High Tide +1 Blue Sun's Zenith plan, as per the usual against opposing extraction like effects.) I do apologize to my opponent if he ever reads this, but from my end of the table the things I was able to do was so absurd I felt quite a rush as the game went on and on.
For starters, All they ever did as far as a threat goes before I got out the Counterbalance / Sensei's Top lock, was play a Deathrite Shaman. After that, I just sat back, took 2 each turn for a few turns, then did an at end of turn Cunning Wish. As I was going to get something for comboing, whether it was protection or draw or whatever, I decided on something that I knew would buy me a TON of time to sculpt the perfect hand. So instead, I grabbed a Wipe Away, then I used it on his Deathrite Shaman and he had no threats in play, while I had a Counterbalance/Top lock in play. They replayed the Deathrite Shaman, it was trigger, reveal, counter. Same thing for a Brainstorm, & other stuff I don't remember as vividly. Discard must have hit me at some point, Liliana I think, and I think that's how a High Tide got put into the sideboard but I'm not 100% on that by memory. I do know that they did Extirpate, which I was not expecting, but I did remember that counterbalance can still counter Split Second (My own experience via Wipe Away) So I blind flipped, revealed a preordain, and it was countered.
The very next turn, another Extirpate, another blind flip, Flusterstorm revealed to counter it. By the time I got to the point of Comboing off, I had EIGHT Islands in play, & my opponent still had no threats on the table. I actually found myself saying "This is almost making me want to play miracles, this is just ridiculous."

Long story short, I will remain to run Counterbalance in the 75 for now. I believe since our game 1's we are favored more so before the opponent brings in all that disruption in exchange for cutting their Swords to Plowshares/dead cards/etc. It means I don't think the Counterbalance are as necessary game 1, so keep those Candels in the main. 99% of your opponents won't know you're playing High Tide when they sit down across from you at an Open/Large event, etc. But game 2, the ability to draw out disruption at a minimum, or for even more value, keep that counterbalance in play while comboing through, is something I am going to be pushing for now.

Having said all this, I want to note that this is a personal preference, I like playing it from a more control perspective when I can. I am not saying this is the way the deck should go or anything crazy like that. Until I get some more live runs in with this setup, I don't even feel comfortable recommending it unless you are extremely comfortable with it.

For now I will keep in touch. For all I know in a month I will ditch this idea, or embrace it completely and say I'm officially on board with it indefinitely. Until the next one, I'll see you at Indy this weekend!

[ScatmanX]

Just to share that I played this version here. Incredibly fun to use.
10 Island
8 Fetchs

4 High Tide
3 Time Spiral
3 Future Sight
3 Helm of Awakening

4 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
1 Brain Freeze

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei`s Divining Top
4 Preordain

3 Turnabout
1 Snap
4 Force of Will
1 Pact of Negation

SB:
1 BSZ
1 Brain Freeze
3 Swan Song
1 Fluster
1 Pact

1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Surgical Extraction

1 Turnabout
1 Intuition
(need to squeeze some Defense Grids here)

M1 - Junk
G1 He leads with Shaman, into Sculler, taking a High Tide, then Hymn, taking my 2nd Tide and Time Spiral, leaving me with Helm and Top. The turn before I die I manage to cast a Tide with 3 lands into play, then Brainstorm, then Intuition for a 2nd Top. I had the a Merchant Scroll but no mana. Luckily one of the 3 top cards was a land, and I could storm him dead.
G2 Dont remember at all. Lost.
G3 He has T1 `True Beliver`, T2 Liliana, T3 Hymn. I did get the Top Helm combo, and got rid of his dude by Snaping it after Liliana discard effect, but did not draw a business, and he beat me to death.

M2 - Dredge
G1 - He mulls lot but has a good hand. I manage to Spiral T4 after Fowing a Therapy.
G2 - I get the Elm combo T3.

M3 - Burn
G1 - Manage to BSZ myself for 12 with 9 open, but had to Spiral. Get it anyway after a Future Sight + Top + Helm drawing my whole deck.
G2 - Got Top and Helm, while he beats be fast with GG into Flame Rift and burn. I have Brain Freeze in hand, so Intuition on his endstep. He thinks and let it resolves. I could beat the ReB he had, but not the Mindbreak Trap he had. This time I take Swan Songs out for Pacts. way more sense.
G3 - Is awesome. He takes me 4 and has a Lavamancer and 2 untapped Lands. I have Top, 3 Islands tapped, Fetch, Pact, Tide and Spiral. My draw is he Island I needed. I dont crack the fetch and Spiral. Go to 2 from Lavamancer. We draw 7. I get Pact, FoW, Fluster, Brainstorm, Tide, Scroll and something else. He ReB my Tide. I Pact. He Fireblast. I Fluster. Road is clear. Unfortunately I dont find much. Eventually get to a point where I only have Intuition, 2 lands and FoW, with 18 total mana possible. I Intuition for 2x Spiral + Future Sight. Get Sight. High Tide on top. Play it. Brainstorm on top. Play it. Get scroll and Wish. Scroll for BF, Wish for BSZ, kill him BSZing for 1 and emptying his library. Really really awesome game.

M4 - Esper
G1 - Got Seized, Snap (which I FoW), then assemble the Elm with 2 Tops combo. For 6 turns I dont see a cantrip or any business, that would be lethal.
G2 - Seize 2x T2, while 1 was Swan Songd. Then Stoneforge comes in. I end up with Tide, 2x Turnabout, Intuition. Intuition gets countered, and I got Wish. I Wish for Intuition, he surgicals the 1st one. Sword f/f eats my cards, and no Top/Sight means no way to combo with Protection. He also had 2 Fluster by then. GG

If anyone has any suggestion on this decklist please feel free. Its amazing to play, and really confuses opponents. Its not nearly tuned as I want as the combos takes a lot of slots, so dont know if much can be done to improve it...

[Isidiel]

After working day 1 of the Somerset open, I played a few rounds of Legacy and figured I'd share my observations. I'll be at Providence in two weeks, likely with the same plan. Today's build was Candel-free and Cloud-free, splashing red for Epic Experiment (2x) and Past in Flames (1x), running a maindeck BSZ, 4/2/2 Force/Flusterstorm/Rewind, 4/4/4 Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain, with a set of Defense Grid and Grafdigger's Cage in the board.

this seem quite fun i will give it a try... how about something like a blood moon and maybe some personal tutors to set up epic experiment and fetch moon/what is needed?


also i like Feline's idea to go more control (top+cb is awesome!) im curious to see how it will develope :)

[dcollins]

this seem quite fun i will give it a try... how about something like a blood moon and maybe some personal tutors to set up epic experiment and fetch moon/what is needed?

Blood Moon is a tough sell and doesn't help us. We're relying on getting as many lands out as possible, I don't want to draw a fetch and be unable to use it, and I don't want my Volcanic Island to stop interacting with High Tide.

Personal Tutor, I don't think we have room for. I don't want to give up a cantrip which can find a High Tide or a Turnabout for something which doesn't. It finds Spiral, Merchant Scroll, Preordain, and Ponder along with Experiment and Past in Flames. If Spiral didn't exile itself, I'd be willing to cut Spirals for Tutors one-for-one, but we need to keep at least 2 Spirals in the deck. I'll think about replacing my 3rd Spiral and 2nd Experiment, but I don't think it helps this any more than it helps the stock build, which clearly isn't very much.


also i like Feline's idea to go more control (top+cb is awesome!) im curious to see how it will develope :)

Absolutely. I'm looking forward to see how it works for people next weekend in Providence!

[Lord Seth]

If you really want that nonbasic land hate, you'd be better off with Back to Basics than Blood Moon anyway so you don't have to splash.

[clavio]

Hey everyone. I have a couple of quick quesitons.

When you have a 1 of sideboard card, say Hurkyl's Recall, do you board that in or just leave in the sb for wishing purposes?
What are acceptable cards to board out against Delver? What about Miracles?
Anybody have any experience with Rushing River as a sideboard option against multiple hatebears?

[dcollins]

Hey everyone. I have a couple of quick quesitons.

When you have a 1 of sideboard card, say Hurkyl's Recall, do you board that in or just leave in the sb for wishing purposes?

It's actually detrimental for us to board in our wish targets. If they're in the board, we can get to them if we draw one of four Scrolls or one of three Wishes. If we side them in, and we need it, we need to either draw it, or draw a Scroll. It makes it harder for us to find them if they're in the mainboard. You can board in a Flusterstorm, Pact, or any other counter in your wishboard, especially if you're doing it to replace a Flusterstorm in your mainboard that isn't very helpful in a given matchup, and you can run doubles of some bounce if you want to bring one copy in and leave the other out; everything else stays in the board.


What are acceptable cards to board out against Delver? What about Miracles?

In most cases, you're boarding out a High Tide (especially if you suspect Surgical Extraction), any nonproductive counters, and maybe a cantrip. Delver/Miracles aren't anything special in this regard.


Anybody have any experience with Rushing River as a sideboard option against multiple hatebears?

Well, we have access to Echoing Truth and Hurkyl's Recall. Rushing River is more expensive than either of those, even without paying the kicker. I also wouldn't take it as a given that we're willing to sacrifice lands in an 18 land deck, especially in the cases where we're already in trouble and want as much insurance as possible while going off.

[TiMeWaLk]

It's actually detrimental for us to board in our wish targets. If they're in the board, we can get to them if we draw one of four Scrolls or one of three Wishes. If we side them in, and we need it, we need to either draw it, or draw a Scroll. It makes it harder for us to find them if they're in the mainboard. You can board in a Flusterstorm, Pact, or any other counter in your wishboard, especially if you're doing it to replace a Flusterstorm in your mainboard that isn't very helpful in a given matchup, and you can run doubles of some bounce if you want to bring one copy in and leave the other out; everything else stays in the board.

I do not think this is true. Doing Scroll => Wish => Hurkyl can be insanely slow. I prefer to board in Hurkyl against Affinity or MUD for example, and plan to draw it naturally or scroll for it rather than having to wish for it.

[Float4WeldSlaver]

I do not think this is true. Doing Scroll => Wish => Hurkyl can be insanely slow. I prefer to board in Hurkyl against Affinity or MUD for example, and plan to draw it naturally or scroll for it rather than having to wish for it.

I agree with this, but there's nuance to it. I will board in a wish-target if there will still be another wish-target fulfilling the same role. I have 2 bounce spells in my board right now--Echoing Truth and Wipe Away. If I need bounce for a match-up, I'll board one in and leave the other--so both Scroll and Wish can find a bounce spell. Which one I want md and sb depends on the match-up.

[Isaac]

Had fun this weekend playing cards. I played at the scg open however not with the tides. I've been wanting to try out other decks but I will always consider myself a high tide player. Feline it was good to finally meet you.

[feline]

Just keep flagging the High Tide banner Isaac! I will continue onto next week, till then I'm going to bed finally ha ha.

[amalek0]

Feline tearing up the open today.

[astormbrewing]

Feline tearing up the open today.

She has made top 8.

[amalek0]

Teeg is rough. Congrats on making T8 again feline.

[Megadeus]

What exactly is the CB top package for? I haven't seen it be that great every time she has used it

[Meekrab]

What exactly is the CB top package for? I haven't seen it be that great every time she has used it
It helps stall? The deck really wants to be going off with 5 lands, right?

[Megadeus]

I'm not a high tide player. I understand you get to stall, but at the earliest you get to begin activating top with CB online by turn three. The issue being that this is generally a turn 4-5 deck. It seems like it's just a brick that doesn't help you go off. Like I said, I haven't tested it, but almost every match I've seen feline have it on cam, she has lost because she gets it online way after it matters

[Meekrab]

No, it doesn't help you go off.

But it probably helps you fight through the games where you have to actually fight? Like you, I'm not a high tide player but if Feline is Top 8ing doing it, it can't be very far wrong?

[Pox22]

I'll admit I haven't tested Counterbalance in the sb yet, but I don't like the idea much. It doesn't do a good job of countering 1cc-2cc creatures that apply early pressure, as Counter-Top is generally established after the opponent can drop them. It can do work against 1cc counters except Flusterstorm, but I like Defense Grid more for that purpose--it's a blunter instrument, sure, but does a better job overall in more situations and match-ups. Seeing CB flounder on camera supports my negative bias.

The most I've seen in defense of CB is that it draws a counter out of the opponent or it causes them to play around it or incorrectly (much the same argument for Mystic Remora). I'd rather my gameplan not be my opponent misplaying.

But I'll wait for Feline to do a write-up; I'm sure she'll have more to say on Counterbalance after another week (and a very successful one--congrats, Feline!) of running it.

[amalek0]

I think the theory is that the counterbalance package allows you to board and/or mulligan in combo matchups to play the control role, fighting over their early combo attempts while making land drops, then riding the virtual CA from the countertop lock until you can actually combo off.

[defector]

Congrats on a great finish Feline!

[astormbrewing]

For those of you too lazy to go back one page to read what Feline has said about Counterbalance, here it is again:


I like the idea of drawing counterspells out of the opponents deck before comboing, so I can save all my mana on the combo turn for just that, comboing, which is most vital getting that first Spiral off. I also like comboing with as much protection as possible, always getting as much protection as I can before each Spiral/Blue Sun Zenith. I like Defense Grid, but I didn't like how the Defense Grid's could not really come in against opposing combo decks, & on top of that, resolving High Tides gives them potential mana to pay to cast more counters until they're tapped out. Once they're tapped out a Force of Will here and there are much easier to deal with. Constantly thinking about different things with the deck as it's on my mind even more so this year than in the past, as I am now officially going SCG nuts, I recently came across the idea of running Counterbalance potentially in the list, which I may of both thought of & dismissed some time in the past.

~Counterbalance in the sideboard was a 4 of, cut Cage/Grids completely. Cage only ever came in against elves, as I never go against reanimator / dredge ever, somehow I've managed to Never go against Dredge live at the open series. Counterbalance is even more ridiculous against elves than cage was, & Counterbalance can come in when Defense Grid can come in, as well as in matches where I didn't want to bring in the Grids.

In cutting Candelabras for Counterbalance, We slow down, but we also potentially slow the opponent down. On top of that, the Sensei's Top are useful from the beginning, look for lands early if needed, then continue onto whatever you want. with counterbalance the Sensei's Top's are just dumb good! Then after that, TimeSpiral means seeing 10 cards instead of 7, and the top always stays in play. For Counterbalance, They can draw out a counter, or resolve, then protect you comboing, or even just sitting and waiting for more land drops. When comboing, like the tops, the Counterbalance's always stay in play which is also awesome. Potentially fizzling off a spiral is at the same time potentially decreased with a top in play seeing cards 8-9-10, and on top of that, them drawing into countermagic becomes easier to navigate when you have a counterbalance staying in play the whole time, sometimes not even having to use any countermagic from the hand at all to shield theirs from hitting your spells.

From that, I added 4 Counterbalance to the sideboard, & brought the list to the Open Series this weekend in New Jersey:

They came in on the first round against a RWU delver deck, game 2 I played a turn 2 top, turn 3 Counterbalance, then flusterstormed a Red Blast, allowing the Counterbalance to get into play. From there I sat back, let myself get to more Islands and then went off after drawing cards & just setting myself up. Having a Force of Will on top is awesome when you don't even have to cast it, just reveal off trigger.

Against Show and Tell I was not bringing them in because doing so I was cutting Candels. With that, the main untap effects are solely Turnabout & Time Spiral, more spirals increase the chance to potentially fizzle, so I'd want to aim more for Brain Freeze. However you don't want to Brain Freeze an Emrakul deck.

The real stick out match of the day for me however was the last round. I was playing against Esperblade. Game 1 was won and it went to game 2, I went with the -4 Candel +4 Counterbalance plan (As well as the -1 High Tide +1 Blue Sun's Zenith plan, as per the usual against opposing extraction like effects.) I do apologize to my opponent if he ever reads this, but from my end of the table the things I was able to do was so absurd I felt quite a rush as the game went on and on.
For starters, All they ever did as far as a threat goes before I got out the Counterbalance / Sensei's Top lock, was play a Deathrite Shaman. After that, I just sat back, took 2 each turn for a few turns, then did an at end of turn Cunning Wish. As I was going to get something for comboing, whether it was protection or draw or whatever, I decided on something that I knew would buy me a TON of time to sculpt the perfect hand. So instead, I grabbed a Wipe Away, then I used it on his Deathrite Shaman and he had no threats in play, while I had a Counterbalance/Top lock in play. They replayed the Deathrite Shaman, it was trigger, reveal, counter. Same thing for a Brainstorm, & other stuff I don't remember as vividly. Discard must have hit me at some point, Liliana I think, and I think that's how a High Tide got put into the sideboard but I'm not 100% on that by memory. I do know that they did Extirpate, which I was not expecting, but I did remember that counterbalance can still counter Split Second (My own experience via Wipe Away) So I blind flipped, revealed a preordain, and it was countered.
The very next turn, another Extirpate, another blind flip, Flusterstorm revealed to counter it. By the time I got to the point of Comboing off, I had EIGHT Islands in play, & my opponent still had no threats on the table. I actually found myself saying "This is almost making me want to play miracles, this is just ridiculous."

Long story short, I will remain to run Counterbalance in the 75 for now. I believe since our game 1's we are favored more so before the opponent brings in all that disruption in exchange for cutting their Swords to Plowshares/dead cards/etc. It means I don't think the Counterbalance are as necessary game 1, so keep those Candels in the main. 99% of your opponents won't know you're playing High Tide when they sit down across from you at an Open/Large event, etc. But game 2, the ability to draw out disruption at a minimum, or for even more value, keep that counterbalance in play while comboing through, is something I am going to be pushing for now.

Having said all this, I want to note that this is a personal preference, I like playing it from a more control perspective when I can. I am not saying this is the way the deck should go or anything crazy like that. Until I get some more live runs in with this setup, I don't even feel comfortable recommending it unless you are extremely comfortable with it.

You can see the whole post here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25666-Primer-Deck-High-Tide&p=814232&viewfull=1#post814232).

[JDK]

Grats!

Just watched G1 again Vanmeter...it was almost like he wanted to lose...

[Di]

First off, congrats on another top8! Awesome seeing the deck putting up numbers lately. :)

Secondly, I'll try to add a bit of perspective for everyone on Counterbalance. But really when I say a 'bit' I mean it's going to be a long-ass diatribe of a post. And I'm sure Feline has more to chime in on it. For me, I think it's fine in theory. However in actuality I think its terrible for the deck. I don't like how it impacts the deck's construction, how the deck plays and its ability to win, its negative influence on sideboarding/mulligans, and the illusory perception of its affect on certain matchups and how good it actually is at all. In a nutshell, this leads me to the following observations based on those problems:

- It requires the deck to play an excessive number of Sensei's Divining Top to gain full use out of it. As the pioneer for the card in the archetype and having played/tested it more than anybody, I feel any more than three is overkill and usually detrimental to the deck's draws and ability to combo fluidly. Hell I only run two right now, but three is the limit.
- It negatively affects the deck's own ability to actually combo in the first place by adding four irrelevant spells to the deck while simultaneously taking out combo pieces (in this case, Candelabras as that was specifically referenced). This can utterly cripple you post-Spiral when you scrap for untap effects and cannot manage them.
- It impacts the speed the deck can combo at all. While in theory Counterbalance will slow down the opponent, and thus mitigating the loss of our own speed, this is a bad assumption to make because it concludes that Counterbalance will either completely wall the opponent (not entirely true), and that you'll have it early enough to do something with it (more on this below).
- Unlike the cards it replaced in the list, it requires additional resources and manipulation to use effectively. Cards like Defense Grid or Grafdigger's Cage have a very specific role, and serve them far better for their needs without assistance. Counterbalance is never a sure thing, and if it whiffs, then it's a serious problem. Rolling the dice on a card like that to save you can be tricky given this deck isn't designed to play that type of game. We are a combo deck that requires its solutions to be as reliable as possible, and placing too much emphasis on Counterbalance to solve problems that something else would assuredly handle worries me.
- Beyond turn two, maybe three at the latest, Counterbalance is an absolute terrible topdeck. The only matchups I can honestly see the card being worthwhile in are against Storm, Elves, the mirror, possibly Reanimator (but that's iffy too) and maybe the Miracles/Counterbalance mirror. Those are the only decks that Counterbalance can truly get mileage out of based on our curve, and yet it's still highly dependent being on the play and draw. If you're on the draw the card is essentially a liability, as Storm, Elves, and Reanimator are all a turn faster. And if it's on the play, you still need to have the 1cc on top to get there. Granted half the deck costs one and you can manipulate on the first turn, but that's a lot of setup just to stop them initially. If you get there and have that then fantastic, but otherwise they can win through it. The reason why it's such an awful topdeck beyond the first couple turns is because odds are you aren't capable of winning yourself by then anymore where you would under usual circumstances. Drawing a Counterbalance on turn four is fine, but if that were a Candelabra you could just go off instead of durdling around and hoping to stop them. One of the greatest strength's of this deck is its ability to be resilient during the first few turns, and then once you hit 3-4 lands you threaten to go off at any time. When you remove that consistent angle of attack from the deck, it essentially allows the opponent more opportunities to win. In most cases, you'll have a better chance of winning the game with that turn 3-4 drawn Candelabra as opposed to stopping the opponent from winning the game with that turn 3-4 drawn Counterbalance. Now I won't argue that Counterbalance is highly threatening to a deck like Storm or Elves, and on paper certainly makes those matchups stronger. But given we have several options already that can manage this without disrupting the deck's natural gameplan to this degree leads me think that Counterbalance is more wishful theory than actual ability.
- As far as other matchups go, given this deck's curve, gameplan, and how it runs, any other deck will either scoff the card off, or shrug that it's being played against them at all. You sure as hell aren't going to bring this in against a Delver deck and watch them drop Delver on turn one and laugh it off as they ride it to victory anyway. Or bring it in against a Stoneforge deck that has a highly-varied curve and easily work around it and out-muscle you. Or against Show and Tell where we can barely touch their combo pieces with it. Don't forget the focus of the deck; we're still a combo deck at heart, and cannot missassign role against other decks trying to play control when we shouldn't be. You might pull out a few wins from bringing in a Counterbalance against some unsuspecting decks, but I guarantee it'll end up biting you more often just trying to win the game while you try to out-control someone. To be fair that argument isn't applicable to Show and Tell, but the card is terrible against them anyway as it would whiff virtually the entire time it needed to be meaningful.

Those introductory reasons (read: opinions) aside, let's start with the board in question that was used just for reference:

4 Counterbalance
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Flusterstorm
1 Intuition
1 Pact of Negation
1 Rebuild
1 Snap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Turnabout
2 Wipe Away

Outside of the Counterbalances, the board is fairly stock. Based on what was said, I figure the Counterbalances replaced either a 2/2 or 3/1 split of Defense Grid and Grafdigger's Cage. This assumes that Counterbalance could fulfill the role of both cards (while basically simultaneously shoring up other areas of need), as Feline mentions. There are number of issues I see based on that conclusion. The first is the assumption that Counterbalance actually accomplishes the task better than the cards it's replacing. I'll break it down as granular as possible.


I like the idea of drawing counterspells out of the opponents deck before comboing, so I can save all my mana on the combo turn for just that, comboing, which is most vital getting that first Spiral off. I also like comboing with as much protection as possible, always getting as much protection as I can before each Spiral/Blue Sun Zenith. I like Defense Grid, but I didn't like how the Defense Grid's could not really come in against opposing combo decks, & on top of that, resolving High Tides gives them potential mana to pay to cast more counters until they're tapped out.

Just breaking down these arguments individually (and in a vacuum):
1. If it's a matter of drawing out a counter before comboing, Grid and Counterbalance achieve this equally.
2. If it's a matter of comboing with as much protection as possible, then Defense Grid is the better card for the situation. It isn't necessarily how many counters they have that is relevant, but rather how many they can actually play. It doesn't matter if they have a handful of counters when they can only cast 1-2 at the most. With Counterbalance this isn't exactly the case. In order for Counterbalance to be as effective in this situation, it requires that A. It is capable of shutting down the opponent's entire wall of spells, B. The spells in question are all the same casting cost, C. That you have the mana to manipulate Top if they are not the same casting cost (in addition to the mana needed to go off), D. You actually have a Top in play, and of course E. The top of the deck actually has the relevant casting cost(s). That's far more work to account for in order to go off with Counterbalance safely, and doesn't even take into account what happens after Time Spiral resolves when they have more chances again. Also note that Counterbalance does virtually nothing against opposing Flusterstorms, whereas Defense Grid can shut it down more effectively.
3. The argument for Counterbalance being used against opposing combo decks whereas Defense Grid is dead is reasonable and sound (though I addressed this concern above).
4. Counterbalance's strength is relative to the time it comes down in nearly every match. You essentially always want it on turn two to gain the most value, and it weakens with every turn that passes. This makes it slightly more susceptible to Daze and Spell Pierce, because you really should be trying to resolve it as quickly as possible. This isn't necessarily the case with Defense Grid, where you can float it until the turn before you want to go off. You could technically do the same with Counterbalance, but in that case why bother play the card at all when you gave them 2-3 turns free to cast spells?
5. High Tide's symmetrical mana affects both Counterbalance and Defense Grid. With Grid it may allow them to play one more spell at best, whereas with Counterbalance they still have free reign to cast as many spells as possible. Also factor in that they can attempt to navigate Counterbalance through the use of different casting costs (e.g. REB, Daze, Vendilion Clique, Venser, Mindbreak Trap, Force of Will).
6. Casting a reasonable Blue Sun's Zenith is far more difficult when you are left with so few untap effects in the deck. Even with the slower gameplan and additional land drops, not being able to untap lands as consistently is a bigger problem.
7. Unmentioned argument, but Counterbalance is affected by REB/Pyroblast, Swan Song, and to a lesser extent Stifle.



~Counterbalance in the sideboard was a 4 of, cut Cage/Grids completely. Cage only ever came in against elves, as I never go against reanimator / dredge ever, somehow I've managed to Never go against Dredge live at the open series. Counterbalance is even more ridiculous against elves than cage was, & Counterbalance can come in when Defense Grid can come in, as well as in matches where I didn't want to bring in the Grids.

This is essentially the primary argument for Counterbalance, and it's attractive to say the least. The main issue though is that it bases deckbuilding on chance instead of building for coverage. I've also illustrated my feelings above about running Counterbalance in these matchups and such. But again, I feel the assumption that Counterbalance actually accomplishes the task better than the cards it's replacing here isn't quite accurate. Counterbalance is a bit better than Cage against Elves because it locks down their 1cc slot, but they can also play out 3-4 spells before you even cast it. Cage at least completely shuts off GSZ, Natural Order, and Therapy from the first turn, and allows you to focus on countering Glimpse alone to win. Additionally, Counterbalance is more susceptible to getting blown out by GSZ grabbing Gaddock Teeg or something of the like. And the argument isn't really valid for Reanimator or Dredge, as they simply can't win through Cage within reason. Counterbalance is okay against Reanimator, but given they can cast the entire combo before Counterbalance resolves leads me to think you're better with targeted answers.



In cutting Candelabras for Counterbalance, we slow down, but we also potentially slow the opponent down. On top of that, the Sensei's Top are useful from the beginning, look for lands early if needed, then continue onto whatever you want. with counterbalance the Sensei's Top's are just dumb good! Then after that, Time Spiral means seeing 10 cards instead of 7, and the top always stays in play. For Counterbalance, They can draw out a counter, or resolve, then protect you comboing, or even just sitting and waiting for more land drops. When comboing, like the tops, the Counterbalance's always stay in play which is also awesome. Potentially fizzling off a spiral is at the same time potentially decreased with a top in play seeing cards 8-9-10, and on top of that, them drawing into countermagic becomes easier to navigate when you have a counterbalance staying in play the whole time, sometimes not even having to use any countermagic from the hand at all to shield theirs from hitting your spells.

Obviously I wouldn't discredit the benefits of Top. But the argument with Counterbalance, which I touched on previously, is actually a bit of a contradiction. By removing Candelabras, you effectively have access to less mana. Yet you'll still need mana to manipulate Top/Counterbalance after Time Spiral to get use out it, all the while needing mana to continue going off. Given you're down to only 20% of your untap effects in this situation, the odds of you actually having the mana to do this consistently are drastically lower. You likely have a couple more lands to work with, but there's a huge difference between 4-6 mana and 10+. Personally I do a lot of calculating while playing this deck and routinely make decisions based on odds and the ability to bank on hitting things (and when to take risks), and the numbers with this plan are worrisome. I feel it could end up taking too many resources to work in your favor consistently, and will account for losses when wins should've just as easily been had.


I'll skip the section about what she brought it in for, I've already beaten that horse into the ground.



Long story short, I will remain to run Counterbalance in the 75 for now. I believe since our game 1's we are favored more so before the opponent brings in all that disruption in exchange for cutting their Swords to Plowshares/dead cards/etc. It means I don't think the Counterbalance are as necessary game 1, so keep those Candels in the main. 99% of your opponents won't know you're playing High Tide when they sit down across from you at an Open/Large event, etc. But game 2, the ability to draw out disruption at a minimum, or for even more value, keep that counterbalance in play while comboing through, is something I am going to be pushing for now.

This is arguably the most alarming and contradicting issue I have with this at all. The fact that we are so favored game one across the board, it's a statistical likelihood that we will be on the draw an overwhelming majority of the time for game two. Given the matchups where Counterbalance is at its absolute best are the same matchups where they can win or gain a huge advantage before you even play Counterbalance on your (drawn) turn two, lead me to believe that it's false hope the card is truly effective here. That's not even counting the other matchups that they might (unnecessarily) be boarded in as well. It's much different for a deck like Miracles that is designed to work around it and is constructed as such through its cards and curve. But we are still a combo deck, and that's the deck's purpose, and straying too far away from that for the sake of gaining a potential spike damages it more than it helps it.



In essence though, what I'm trying to say was already summarized:


I'm not a high tide player. I understand you get to stall, but at the earliest you get to begin activating top with CB online by turn three. The issue being that this is generally a turn 4-5 deck. It seems like it's just a brick that doesn't help you go off. Like I said, I haven't tested it, but almost every match I've seen feline have it on cam, she has lost because she gets it online way after it matters


I'll admit I haven't tested Counterbalance in the sb yet, but I don't like the idea much. It doesn't do a good job of countering 1cc-2cc creatures that apply early pressure, as Counter-Top is generally established after the opponent can drop them. It can do work against 1cc counters except Flusterstorm, but I like Defense Grid more for that purpose--it's a blunter instrument, sure, but does a better job overall in more situations and match-ups. Seeing CB flounder on camera supports my negative bias.

The most I've seen in defense of CB is that it draws a counter out of the opponent or it causes them to play around it or incorrectly (much the same argument for Mystic Remora). I'd rather my gameplan not be my opponent misplaying.


^ These two comments pretty much illustrate the point without all of the babble I tacked on to it.

[Pox22]

Babble appreciated!

It's a little silly to see people not understand CB in the deck but simply deferring to Feline--even when she says she's just trying it and "[doesn't] feel comfortable recommending it." She and others can test it and I'd love to be proven wrong. But I don't think it solves any problems the deck faces (or at least doesn't solve them effectively), and is too unwieldy and awkward to warrant inclusion.

[amalek0]

Personally, I viewed it as a kind of metagame choice--if you're expecting a ton of elves and not as much delver in a given weekend, it could be a decent choice. It's gonna suck balls when you play dredge/reanimator rounds 1/2/3.

[Megadeus]

Glad that my assessment of the card in this deck is decent. And I agree on all points you said there basically. I didn't realize Feline was only testing it for the time being.

[Mackan]

Having played a lot of high tide and A LOT of counterbalance (from baseruption to miracles) I agree about CB beeing misplaced in the deck. I tried it a couple of times together with top but felt it required to much mana to set up and was often to slow. Miracles has sweepers to compensate for the lack of a turn 2 counterbalance and is also much slower than high tide. I encourage testing because even if Counterbalance is unreliable it's maybe still the best strategy there is against certain decks. Except the wishboard and the GY-hate there are a few slots which are often;

Leyline of Sanctity
Defense Grid
Counterbalance
Mystic Remora
(Delver of secrets?)

I don't really like any of them and all have their different up/downsides. What do you guys think of the non-wish/non-gy-hate slots? Everyone post a list of 15 sideboard cards but I think the difference between the cemented ones and the flex slots are huge and not discussed enough.

[Float4WeldSlaver]

Here's my current board...

//Cemented Wishboard--7
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Brain Freeze
1x Intuition
1x Pact of Negation
1x Snap
1x Turnabout
1x Wipe Away

I would be hard-pressed to cut any of these. Obviously Freeze, Zenith, and Turnabout are kill conditions or combo pieces, Intuition is a solid tutor, Pact is a free counter, Snap is incredible for hatebears, and Wipe Away is no-nonsense-bounce.

//Flexible Wishboard--4
1x Echoing Truth
1x Flusterstorm
1x Rebuild
1x Surgical Extraction

These are nice to have, but I could rationalize cutting some of them without much difficulty.

//Non-wish slots--4
2x Defense Grid
2x Grafdigger's Cage

I like Grid fine and I honestly haven't brought in Cage yet (I seem to keep dodging the dredge and elves in my meta). When I was running 4 tops (I've since cut to 3), I was testing 2 Devastation Tide in the board (which I believe Joe Lossett is also testing in his on-stream list)--I never miracle'd it and I thought it was incredibly unwieldy. Recently due to all the BUG delver in my meta, I thought Vedalken Shackles could be a cool way to stem bleeding...but that seems pretty lose (or at least slow) vs Daze and Abrupt Decay. I've considered Evacuation, but I think 5cc is just too much. Haven't tested CB or Leyline of Sanctity--though I appreciate the merit of the latter.

[feline]

Instead of cutting Candelabra's for the Balances, it's been cutting Preordains for them and the 4th candelabra. Not a whole lot new to add other than that. They are still in my 75 for the Invitational, though at this point the surprise factor is definitely not what it was 2 weeks ago. For the Invitational I'm a lot more worried about the standard portion, I am doing abysmal on Saturdays, my best finish since I've started doing Standard about a month ago is like 70th place in the standard portion.

[Higgs]

It's probably because you're not used to turning guys sideways :laugh:

[Pox22]

While I'm not crazy about the idea, I picked up a cheap set of Counterbalances to test in the board. Don't knock it 'till you try it, I suppose. I'm only consistently losing to heavy discard in my meta (Aluren, Pox, deadguy) without having as much trouble vs miracles, bug delver, sneak and show, and D&T. I figured Leyline of Sanctity solves discard, but *only* in the opening hand and is uncastable otherwise. CounterTop locks out discard, and can potentially give me another tool vs elves, storm, and maybe other decks? I'm starting to see some merit in theory, but I'll wait to see how it performs.

For the other CB naysayers, what else would you suggest to deal with 'Seize/Therapy+aggressive creatures?

[Ltj999]

@Feline

I just wanted to say awesome match vs Jund the other day. Really entertaining, and awesome playing on your part! I counldn't sit down while watching you combo off that last time I was so excited! Very good magic.

[sonorous]

Feline's feature match vs Shippy (Jund) was great.
Does the deck have room for a card like Long-Term Plans?
When one absolutely needs to search for a candle or a spiral...

[clavio]

Feline's feature match vs Shippy (Jund) was great.
Does the deck have room for a card like Long-Term Plans?
When one absolutely needs to search for a candle or a spiral...

Seems worse than intuition

[Megadeus]

While I'm not crazy about the idea, I picked up a cheap set of Counterbalances to test in the board. Don't knock it 'till you try it, I suppose. I'm only consistently losing to heavy discard in my meta (Aluren, Pox, deadguy) without having as much trouble vs miracles, bug delver, sneak and show, and D&T. I figured Leyline of Sanctity solves discard, but *only* in the opening hand and is uncastable otherwise. CounterTop locks out discard, and can potentially give me another tool vs elves, storm, and maybe other decks? I'm starting to see some merit in theory, but I'll wait to see how it performs.

For the other CB naysayers, what else would you suggest to deal with 'Seize/Therapy+aggressive creatures?

Just saw her get smashed twice with it on board. This is no offense to you Feline. I just haven't seen it be good for you. Also, I don't see how CB helps you vs. Cheap Discard + aggressive dudes that come down before you have the lock online.

[dcollins]

Just saw her get smashed twice with it on board. This is no offense to you Feline. I just haven't seen it be good for you. Also, I don't see how CB helps you vs. Cheap Discard + aggressive dudes that come down before you have the lock online.

I like the idea, and I loved Patrick's and Cedric's response to discovering that it was gone from her SB only to appear in the main. Unfortunately (also, fortunately) I'll be judging the next few opens and won't have a chance to play legacy for a few weeks - that said, if anyone's bringing High Tide to Worcester or Baltimore, I'll be looking for you.

[Pox22]

Still haven't tested it, having been away on a work trip recently, but my thinking was that CounterTop locks out 1cc--and thus discard (and if discard hits top or CB, then it's not hitting combo pieces)--and that I can usually combo out before aggressive dudes kill me--but only if I'm not too disrupted. So either by soaking or locking out the discard, I negate the aggressive dudes by being faster. That's the thinking anyway, without testing it.

But now I don't even want to bother because I'm coming around to Di's position of not wanting more than 2 Sensei's Divining Tops--and sometimes I think of cutting them altogether.

[clavio]

I like the idea, and I loved Patrick's and Cedric's response to discovering that it was gone from her SB only to appear in the main. Unfortunately (also, fortunately) I'll be judging the next few opens and won't have a chance to play legacy for a few weeks - that said, if anyone's bringing High Tide to Worcester or Baltimore, I'll be looking for you.

I'll definitely be at Worcester, unsure about Baltimore at this point.

[claudio.r]

While I know that this question might have been asked 10000000 times, is this deck playable without candelabras, and can you guys indicate me a good candelabra less list? Used to play something close to Spring Tide and now I got my hands on 4 copies of time Spiral, so I would like to ave some fun rocking Tide.

Thanks in advance

[JDK]

@claudio.r
There you go: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11205&iddeck=81823

[clavio]

While I know that this question might have been asked 10000000 times, is this deck playable without candelabras, and can you guys indicate me a good candelabra less list? Used to play something close to Spring Tide and now I got my hands on 4 copies of time Spiral, so I would like to ave some fun rocking Tide.

Thanks in advance

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_fire_tide_with_ryan_.html <-This list is pretty cool. I run solidarity from time to time, but that obviously doesn't run timespiral. I actually took 4eak's list from the budget thread and slowly built towards Chilbert's list. I don't know how good that would be now, but it might be worth looking into.

[Pox22]

There's also Eric Becker's list from 2012--http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44089--which mostly involved killing the opponent via Brain Freeze, Remand it, Brain Freeze.

[saturnflowers]

I don't like counterbalance in the deck, I don't like top in the deck. Feline your the best player with the deck(only starcity 1st place winner). I loved the 4 pact of negation sideboard SMART! I'm running 2 candelabras and 4 cunning wishes main board just cuz I love getting in my sideboard I've had the deck only a few months so my vote may not be worth anything.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pox22]

I'm a little excited to test Polymorphist's Jest in the sb as a wish-able blue wrath of sorts for 1UU to either buy a turn vs aggressive starts or to (more importantly) turn off multiple hatebears and go off. It doesn't strike me as the most elegant solution, but it's more attractive to me than some of the other options (Devastation Tide, Counterbalance, Evacuation, etc). There's a fair amount of D&T, Maverick and hatebear-fueled aggro decks in my meta, so I've been looking for a single card to take care of multiple disruptors. Thoughts?

[clavio]

I've thought about going 1/1 with Intuition (I run a farily standard build). It's a great card. Anybody running it maindeck?


I'm a little excited to test Polymorphist's Jest in the sb as a wish-able blue wrath of sorts for 1UU to either buy a turn vs aggressive starts or to (more importantly) turn off multiple hatebears and go off. It doesn't strike me as the most elegant solution, but it's more attractive to me than some of the other options (Devastation Tide, Counterbalance, Evacuation, etc). There's a fair amount of D&T, Maverick and hatebear-fueled aggro decks in my meta, so I've been looking for a single card to take care of multiple disruptors. Thoughts?

Go for it. I've been waiting for a card like this. It might cost one too many to be good (you are going to want it when your opponent has thalia a lot of the time) but I think it could be awesome.

[sonorous]

I need advice on my build.

I'm going to my local grinder this week, and the meta there: all spells, ant, elves, d & t, uwr delver, zoo, bug control, bug elver, miracles, & maverick

My current build:

"Normal core"

4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
3 Turnabout

1 Blue Sun's Zenith

4 Force of Will

4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

6 fetches
12 Island

"Flex slots"

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Cloud of Faeries

I don't have candles, but I am allowed to proxy. I'd rather try to go at it without them first.
So based on the meta, any suggestions to the flex slots? Also, what kind of sideboard cards should I include?

[clavio]

I played high tide today at Worcester. I sucked a million dicks, going 1-3. I lost 3 games after resolving time spiral, and I got totally owned once by the walking pyrostatic pillar. Mulled more than ever. Brand new sleeves, fuckers were sliding all over the place. Mehmehmeh

That all said, I had one of my sweetest game ever. Against UR Delver I had 2 lands and a candle in play. My hand was 2 tides and a scroll. Draw turnabout! Go tide -> activiate candle to untap 2 lands. Cast tide #2. Cast turnabout. Cast merchant scroll, floating 1. Get meditate. Meditate into candle, island, turnabout, preordain (!). Make an island. Make a candle. Tap my island to untap 3 lands. Turnabout my candles. Preordain, get rid of both, rip ponder. Ponder into Timespiral! Untap with a candle, cast time spiral, win the game!

[rcl]

Hi all, new here but have been lurking a bit. Super interested in high tide, recently picked up the cards and looking forward to playing it weekly at my (very competitive) LGS. Have watched all the SCG footage of feline and Colin (amazing) and have been playing on cockatrice lots trying to really understand the interactions and the rationale for some of what I see in decklists

1) I am running 4x personal tutor (and 2 tops). I found that I often got stuck trying to Cantrip in to a time spiral. Everyone's list has 4x high tide and 4x merchant scroll (8 ways to get HT), but only 4 ways to get spiral, and you need both to go off (I see people say you don't, but everything I've played and seen says you do). i get that there are loads of can trips and you can see a lot of cards, and I get that personal tutor requires a Cantrip to grab (or a top), but it seems to me that the deck doesn't care about how many cards it sees or draws, it simply cares about drawing the specific cards it needs, so personal tutor seems extremely great on theory and in practice. I also run 0 fetches [i don't own them, so..] and have not missed them after adding 4x personal tutor*. but nobody runs P T. Why?
2) intuition has always seemed terrible to me. What do you grab with it?
3) pact of negation seems really awesome, better than FOW in any case where you are protecting yourself going off. to the point that I wonder if FOW is an auto 4 of or if the right mix may be 2 FOW 2 Pact
4) if the worst matchup is dredge why don't lists run leyline of the voice (and /r sanctity?)
5) why is there universally 2x snap in SB instead of 1

* it's worth noting that I find fetches to be weak in high tide. They only thin until you spiral since you shuffle back in, they aren't useful after time spiral since you're going to crack them all before spiraling (so depending on them for brainstorm seems like it results in an unbalanced deck while going off), and they do open some vulnerability to wasteland, stiflr, blood moon... it seems like just not an awesome fit and that maybe the cantrip mix shoyldnt be 4x brainstorm

[TiMeWaLk]

1) I did not try it.
2) 3 Spirals?
3) Hymn? Any discard? An annoying creature? Counterbalance? You do not have 5 manas?
4) How many dredges do you encounter?
5) I do not have 2

PS: Please... test REALLY the deck before asking questions. Half of them are... well.

[Mackan]

Im not sure Tops is the way to go as they are pretty slow. To the people who runs them, have you considered adding Predict to your list too? If there is enough mana to spin the top there is maybe enough time to build your ancestrals also?
I really liked Predict in Miracles where blind CB-triggers also helps out with the Predicting. I guess the full set of cantrips makes up for it in high tide.

Why Predict?
The same reason to why you want tops. To fight Liliana of the veil, thoughtseize, sword of feast and famine and similar effects. Drawing cards is also allways very nice, especially at instant speed. Getting rid of extra tops with Predict is great but what I absolutly love about Predict and tops can be described from this (not very unlikely scenario).

Opp, hellbent with liliana of the veil.
You, top and some lands with predict, high tide and ponder on top of your deck
You can stack a look with top (and even stack another look if you want to keep the top), draw the predict, get rid of the top. draw high tide and ponder, then look at 3 fresh cards, rearange them, and hopefully go off on your next turn.
Yes, you can "go off" with a bunch of lands and a top if you find and float a time spiral too, but predict allows you to go off from hellbent in an additional way.

There is also some nice interactions between your opponents sensei's divining top (drawn to counterbalance for x=1, for example), enlightened tutors and delver-triggers too.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Di]

Hi all, new here but have been lurking a bit. Super interested in high tide, recently picked up the cards and looking forward to playing it weekly at my (very competitive) LGS. Have watched all the SCG footage of feline and Colin (amazing) and have been playing on cockatrice lots trying to really understand the interactions and the rationale for some of what I see in decklists

1) I am running 4x personal tutor (and 2 tops). I found that I often got stuck trying to Cantrip in to a time spiral. Everyone's list has 4x high tide and 4x merchant scroll (8 ways to get HT), but only 4 ways to get spiral, and you need both to go off (I see people say you don't, but everything I've played and seen says you do). i get that there are loads of can trips and you can see a lot of cards, and I get that personal tutor requires a Cantrip to grab (or a top), but it seems to me that the deck doesn't care about how many cards it sees or draws, it simply cares about drawing the specific cards it needs, so personal tutor seems extremely great on theory and in practice. I also run 0 fetches [i don't own them, so..] and have not missed them after adding 4x personal tutor*. but nobody runs P T. Why?
2) intuition has always seemed terrible to me. What do you grab with it?
3) pact of negation seems really awesome, better than FOW in any case where you are protecting yourself going off. to the point that I wonder if FOW is an auto 4 of or if the right mix may be 2 FOW 2 Pact
4) if the worst matchup is dredge why don't lists run leyline of the voice (and /r sanctity?)
5) why is there universally 2x snap in SB instead of 1

* it's worth noting that I find fetches to be weak in high tide. They only thin until you spiral since you shuffle back in, they aren't useful after time spiral since you're going to crack them all before spiraling (so depending on them for brainstorm seems like it results in an unbalanced deck while going off), and they do open some vulnerability to wasteland, stiflr, blood moon... it seems like just not an awesome fit and that maybe the cantrip mix shoyldnt be 4x brainstorm

All of these could be answered on your own through your own testing and experience, but to save you the time:

1. Personal Tutor, in a word, sucks. It only has one realistic target in this deck in Time Spiral. Wasting a draw to get a Merchant Scroll to find an instant is far too slow. Hell, wasting a draw to get Time Spiral can be slow too. Cantrips don't solve the issue of being able to snipe for it at will, but cantrips also find anything else you need while sculpting your hand. Personal Tutor can't do this, and any of them beyond the first is basically a dead draw. I'd probably never run this card in the 75 (unless something so ridiculous was printed it needed warranting). If the card isn't even good enough for Show and Tell to run, then I certainly wouldn't run it here. You're better off with real draw spells to have more flexibility.
1.5. If you don't have fetchlands, that's a serious problem. Without the shuffle effect for Brainstorm, Ponder, and Top, you have a huge risk of getting stuck in situations with bad cards. Adding a mediocre tutor like Personal Tutor, or any spell at all for that matter that cuts into the deck's already tight slots, really won't solve this problem. I would not run the deck without them, period. You just can't afford to lose games because your Brainstorms and Tops can't be shuffled at will. Based on your argument against it, I feel like you either misunderstand their role or you misunderstand the way the deck runs in general. If you can afford something like Candelabras, then you can likely find your way into six blue fetches. It really isn't an option.
2. It allows you to search for Time Spiral (please do not revert this back to the Personal Tutor argument) High Tide, or a protection spell at instant speed. It gives Cunning Wish huge flexibility. It's essentially mandatory as a 1of in any list.
3. Pact of Negation is useful only during the turn you go off, barring very minor exceptions when you randomly cast it and pay the upkeep cost. It is fantastic at this time, but dead any other. Force of Will counters everything that Pact can't. Discard, Counterbalance, hate bears, Show and Tell, etc. This is pretty straight forward.
4. Some do, but mostly this is a matter of space. The slots allotted to using Cunning Wish take up a lot, so you generally see 2-3 slots dedicated for this tops.
5. Running two Snap, or two of any bounce spell, allows you to sideboard one in while leaving the other for a Cunning Wish target.

If you really need assistance with this, then you're welcome to PM me questions personally as well.

[Pox22]

Little to add to Di's post regarding those questions.

On the subject on md Intuition which clavio raised, I've been running both a md and sb Intuition for the past several weeks and I have been very impressed by it. Being able to tutor up Tides, Spirals, Candels, or counters without needing to Wish first has been great--and makes finding the 2nd Time Spiral a lot easier if you need it.

Another change I've been testing the past several weeks with great success involves the counter suite: -1 Flusterstorm, -1 md bounce spell for +2 Spell Pierce. It's been incredibly valuable to counter things like Sensei's Divining Top or Counterbalance from Miracles (especially on the draw), Chalice of the Void from Merfolk (see previous parenthetical), Aether Vial from various decks, other cards that Flusterstorm can't, all while also serving as another 1cc counter for counter-wars. It is admittedly a little awkward post-High Tide, but I'm often Turnabouting my opponent to reduce their interaction anyways. I've enjoyed it so much that I'm considering dropping one of my superfluous wish targets for a 3rd Spell Pierce in the board to go with my 3rd sb'd Flusterstorm. I highly recommend the change to people--especially if you're in a meta like mine with a lot of Counterbalances and Chalices.

[Mackan]

Why not Swan Song instead of Pierce then?

[sonorous]

Why not Swan Song instead of Pierce then?

I think he prefers Pierce because it hits artifacts. I'd like that to hit Vial too. An unfair card indeed.

[feline]

The main deck Intuition is awesome, I am half the time wanting to put it back in. I like flusterstorm because it's so hard to counter back, against many spells it just counters and might as well say "you cannot counter back, so your show and tell, etc, is countered."

Spell pierce can hit non sorcery, non instant stuff though, counterbalance included. As well as Sneak Attack or Liliana. For myself, I just like what Flusterstorm brings more than I like what Spell Pierce brings, basically overall my personal feelings are to go with Flusterstorm. Though if you want to be really mean, run both! ha ha. Counter this spell, and this spell, and this spell...

[Pox22]

Agreed--my current counter suite is 4 Force of Will, 2 Flusterstorm, and 2 Spell Pierce. I feel it gives me the best of both worlds (again, this is a meta call with so many counterbalances, chalices, and vials), increases my total count of counters by 1, and I still have the 3rd Flusterstorm in the board to swap in if need be. I think the extra counter is more versatile than the md bounce--considering we have wish to access it game 1. Spell Pierce often cuts the middleman by countering the thing you'd want to bounce anyway (hatebears excluded ofc).

I tested and disregarded Swan Song as it is unable to counter Chalice or Vial--all while speeding up my opponent's clock. My matches vs merfolk and D&T often come down to the wire either way, so I'm not at all keen on giving them a bird.

[Darkenslight]

Agreed--my current counter suite is 4 Force of Will, 2 Flusterstorm, and 2 Spell Pierce. I feel it gives me the best of both worlds (again, this is a meta call with so many counterbalances, chalices, and vials), increases my total count of counters by 1, and I still have the 3rd Flusterstorm in the board to swap in if need be. I think the extra counter is more versatile than the md bounce--considering we have wish to access it game 1. Spell Pierce often cuts the middleman by countering the thing you'd want to bounce anyway (hatebears excluded ofc).

I tested and disregarded Swan Song as it is unable to counter Chalice or Vial--all while speeding up my opponent's clock. My matches vs merfolk and D&T often come down to the wire either way, so I'm not at all keen on giving them a bird.

...That's a point. Would Negate have a place here as a 'hard' counter?

[feline]

...That's a point. Would Negate have a place here as a 'hard' counter?

at 2 mana the counterspell to use, is counterspell

[Pox22]

Counterspell would definitely be your 2cc hard-counter of choice, but that 2cc is the problem. Spell Pierce fits the bill for countering these cards on the draw--or still letting you cantrip and hold U up on turn 2 on the play.

[Darkenslight]

at 2 mana the counterspell to use, is counterspell

Yep. I realised that whilst I was away. I derped.


Counterspell would definitely be your 2cc hard-counter of choice, but that 2cc is the problem. Spell Pierce fits the bill for countering these cards on the draw--or still letting you cantrip and hold U up on turn 2 on the play.

Which is the key problem with the 2CC spells that both Fluster and Pirece don't have.

[warfordium]

a bit off-topic but i saw the no-candles Snap/Snapcaster/PiF version on Joe Lossett's stream. I'm not about to buy candles just for this deck but it looked a lot of fun. Any of you able to quickly point to a "Red Tide" primer?