[Primer/Deck] High Tide

[Bobmans]

a bit off-topic but i saw the no-candles Snap/Snapcaster/PiF version on Joe Lossett's stream. I'm not about to buy candles just for this deck but it looked a lot of fun. Any of you able to quickly point to a "Red Tide" primer?

I compiled a list with Snap, Snapcaster and PiF and did some goldfishing in Cockatrice. PiF never showed up, and when it did i didn't want to cast it nor waste an island for just 1 red. Also since your graveyard is recycling due to Time Spirals i find it a bit underwheling. On the other hand the tech from Snapcaster Mage was pretty cool. Also being able to Snap it was nice. Budget wise i was trying out lists without candles, but it fizzled pretty often. With Snap(casters) i was able to continue chaining until i hit another Time Spiral/BSZ or a wish into a fatal brain freeze/BSZ.

A solid list still requires finetuning. It is pretty tight and it feels light on protection. For me i think PiF is a bit overstretched. I would stay mono blue.
List so far:

3 Snap
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 High Tide
3 Turnabout
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Time Spiral
4 Merchant Scroll
6 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest

[feline]

Don't know of any red tide primers, possibly in the developing section though, but I rarely go there.

[Heretic_AntheM]

High Tide PiF version : http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25641_Eternal-Europe-No-Candles-No-Problem.html

[Mackan]

If you add inconsistency to your manabase with another color you might aswell play ANT.

The snapcaster version is nice but the body is not very relevant and the downside of having your snapcaster getting plowed in response to Snap is quite brutal. Paying 2 mana extra for spells is a bit costly.... speaking of 2 mana, Predict costs 2 aswell... did anyone test it?

edit: I do encourage testing new things though. I really like the delver sideboard to fight the combo hate I just saw on oarsmans stream.

[ScatmanX]

I really like the delver sideboard to fight the combo hate I just saw on oarsmans stream.
Could you provude us with any link for this?
Thanks.

[clavio]

Fwiw I run swan song instead of flusterstorm main. Too many counterbalances running around right now. Also, when you're trying to go off, swan song will always be better than flusterstorm except against enemy flusterstorms. Not too many people run main deck flusterstorm, and grid does well against that card in post boarded games. Grid is awesome.

Also there are many times elves will try and natural order, and they can easily pay for flusterstorm. Swan song will always counter their spells.

Hand from a game I just played:

preordain, tide, spiral, force, scalding tarn, scroll, turnabout. Would you keeping this?


I kept, got stuck on two lands and died.

[flrn]

My rule for one land hands is roughly to keep them, if they have 2 cantrips and it can't be 2 Brainstorms.

[feline]

Maybe I'm bad, but if I see 1 land, I keep it almost every time, whether or not I have a cantrip. My "theory" is that if I have a 53 card stack as my deck, over 50% of those cards are cantrips and lands in these scenarios, if I keep a 1 lander. I absolutely hate to mulligan though. The only people I've also seen be so anti mulligan are Joe Losset and Gerard Fabiano, and the fact that I heard someone say Gerard would rather lose keeping 7 than mulligan to 6, is very close to how I feel about it too.

I basically only mulligan when I see a hand that tells me "if I keep this, I'm gonna be discarding soon." or of course "0 landers."

[clavio]

Maybe I'm bad, but if I see 1 land, I keep it almost every time, whether or not I have a cantrip. My "theory" is that if I have a 53 card stack as my deck, over 50% of those cards are cantrips and lands in these scenarios, if I keep a 1 lander. I absolutely hate to mulligan though. The only people I've also seen be so anti mulligan are Joe Losset and Gerard Fabiano, and the fact that I heard someone say Gerard would rather lose keeping 7 than mulligan to 6, is very close to how I feel about it too.

I basically only mulligan when I see a hand that tells me "if I keep this, I'm gonna be discarding soon." or of course "0 landers."

After reading this I feel like I've been playing the deck totally wrong. In Worcester I was facing a deathblade type deck. I had 4 lands, a candle and 2 counters. I mulliganed. Is that incorrect?

[Gikkman]

Hi. I posted this over at MtgSalvation as well but I felt there is more activity here :-)

I've been playing this deck for about two years now and I really like the new direction this deck is heading. I have read through this entire thread (it took quite some time...) and I've had a fun time seing how the deck has evolved and how discussion have gone.

I've often felt that this deck has two major weaknesses:

1) It is relatively slow
This often comes into play against other combo decks as well as against fast aggro decks. This is relatively unique among combo decks since most other combo decks can easily outrace aggro. High Tide can seldom race other combo decks and is often on par with many aggro decks.

2) It quite susceptible to hate and discard
This is the major drawback with High Tide. There are very few decks today that are without either counters and/or discard and/or some kind of MD hate. Classic High Tide has relatively few ways to defend itself so (I know some of you do not agree with me here, but I often feel that my 7 counters are a bit few when the opponent has 4-5 discards).

Weakness one cannot really be tackled. The deck cannot really be sped up so trying to race other decks aren’t an option. And I think that most of us can agree that the deck has to evolve somehow. The meta has changed to the worse for High Tide so if we want this deck to become successful again, it has to change something. Thus, being more controlly is probably the best way.
CounterTop is a solid shell for a controlling deck, and just what we need. It attacks weakness two whilst still not giving in to faster decks. The only weakness of the CounterTop suit is that it makes the combo less stable (more dead cards post-spiral). In my opinion, the solution to this is Capsize (http://deckbox.org/mtg/capsize).

To generate inf mana with Capsize, we need: 1 Candelabra of Tawnos, 1 Capsize and that our lands produce 8+N mana, where N is the amount of lands in play So, with 4 lands in play we need 12 mana from our lands (ie. 2 resolved High Tide). With 3 lands, we need 11 mana (3 resolved High Tide). If we have a Top in play with inf mana and a Capsize, we can draw our entire deck and thus win instantly. If we don’t have a Top, you can always bounce your opponents board, in worst case that’ll give you a few turns to build up again.
Capsize is a stable win-con, easy to assemble and fairly quick. I really think that if we want to play CounterTop MD, Capsize should be in the SB or even MD.

Other ways to make the deck more controlling could be to involve a second color. While I understand the Wasteland argument (and believe me, it is a very strong argument), with the slower CounterTop build it might be worth looking at again. We could look at what other colors could give us:

Black:
Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Duress - Useful to strip other decks of their weapons against us, also somewhat useful post-spiral to see if the opponent drew FoW.
Toxic Deluge, Drown in Sorrow - Kills almost all hate-bears out there

Red:
Pyroclasm - Kills almost all hate-bears out there
Izzet Charm - Every mode is actually useful. Question is, what card is it better than?
Red Elemental Blast - Meh... Maybe...

Green:
Tangle - Buys time
Exploration, Explore - Have been tried before to get a lot of lands into play
Nature's Claim - Might be useful in SB against... something...

White:
Terminus - Miracle plays it, and with Top, Brainstorm and Ponder we can set up our library almost as much as they can
Humility - If we get this baby into play, we have all the time in the world.
Orim's Chant - Safe combo, and it can buy a turn against aggro.


So other colors have good cards and I would really like the splash to be worth it. Is it worth it though? Truth is, I am not sure... I'll do some testing when I get the chance but unfortunately, I'll have to do most of my testing via Cockatrice.
I think the main question regardins splashing is: What would be requiered to justify a splash? If we could make our own non-blue card which would warrent a splash, how would it look? And after we've created our perfect card, analyze if there is a card which is close enough.

[saur]

Hi. I posted this over at MtgSalvation as well but I felt there is more activity here :-)

I've been playing this deck for about two years now and I really like the new direction this deck is heading. I have read through this entire thread (it took quite some time...) and I've had a fun time seing how the deck has evolved and how discussion have gone.

I've often felt that this deck has two major weaknesses:

1) It is relatively slow
This often comes into play against other combo decks as well as against fast aggro decks. This is relatively unique among combo decks since most other combo decks can easily outrace aggro. High Tide can seldom race other combo decks and is often on par with many aggro decks.

2) It quite susceptible to hate and discard
This is the major drawback with High Tide. There are very few decks today that are without either counters and/or discard and/or some kind of MD hate. Classic High Tide has relatively few ways to defend itself so (I know some of you do not agree with me here, but I often feel that my 7 counters are a bit few when the opponent has 4-5 discards).

Weakness one cannot really be tackled. The deck cannot really be sped up so trying to race other decks aren’t an option. And I think that most of us can agree that the deck has to evolve somehow. The meta has changed to the worse for High Tide so if we want this deck to become successful again, it has to change something. Thus, being more controlly is probably the best way.
CounterTop is a solid shell for a controlling deck, and just what we need. It attacks weakness two whilst still not giving in to faster decks. The only weakness of the CounterTop suit is that it makes the combo less stable (more dead cards post-spiral). In my opinion, the solution to this is Capsize (http://deckbox.org/mtg/capsize).

To generate inf mana with Capsize, we need: 1 Candelabra of Tawnos, 1 Capsize and that our lands produce 8+N mana, where N is the amount of lands in play So, with 4 lands in play we need 12 mana from our lands (ie. 2 resolved High Tide). With 3 lands, we need 11 mana (3 resolved High Tide). If we have a Top in play with inf mana and a Capsize, we can draw our entire deck and thus win instantly. If we don’t have a Top, you can always bounce your opponents board, in worst case that’ll give you a few turns to build up again.
Capsize is a stable win-con, easy to assemble and fairly quick. I really think that if we want to play CounterTop MD, Capsize should be in the SB or even MD.

Other ways to make the deck more controlling could be to involve a second color. While I understand the Wasteland argument (and believe me, it is a very strong argument), with the slower CounterTop build it might be worth looking at again. We could look at what other colors could give us:

Black:
Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Duress - Useful to strip other decks of their weapons against us, also somewhat useful post-spiral to see if the opponent drew FoW.
Toxic Deluge, Drown in Sorrow - Kills almost all hate-bears out there

Red:
Pyroclasm - Kills almost all hate-bears out there
Izzet Charm - Every mode is actually useful. Question is, what card is it better than?
Red Elemental Blast - Meh... Maybe...

Green:
Tangle - Buys time
Exploration, Explore - Have been tried before to get a lot of lands into play
Nature's Claim - Might be useful in SB against... something...

White:
Terminus - Miracle plays it, and with Top, Brainstorm and Ponder we can set up our library almost as much as they can
Humility - If we get this baby into play, we have all the time in the world.
Orim's Chant - Safe combo, and it can buy a turn against aggro.


So other colors have good cards and I would really like the splash to be worth it. Is it worth it though? Truth is, I am not sure... I'll do some testing when I get the chance but unfortunately, I'll have to do most of my testing via Cockatrice.
I think the main question regardins splashing is: What would be requiered to justify a splash? If we could make our own non-blue card which would warrent a splash, how would it look? And after we've created our perfect card, analyze if there is a card which is close enough.



If you're splashing Red, you need to be playing Past in Flames. A lot of players here have already tried splashing, and I think the consensus is, it's not worth opening yourself up to wasteland or not drawing a fetch when you need it. Let us know if you find anything different.

[feline]

After reading this I feel like I've been playing the deck totally wrong. In Worcester I was facing a deathblade type deck. I had 4 lands, a candle and 2 counters. I mulliganed. Is that incorrect?

I can't say that it is correct or incorrect because everyone's play style is different. All I can say is, I would have not mulliganed personally. But again I am stricter on not mulliganing whenever I can. I have the same standards for, standard, he he.

[Jesture]

I've made a couple of notes in bold:


Hi. I posted this over at MtgSalvation as well but I felt there is more activity here :-)

I've been playing this deck for about two years now and I really like the new direction this deck is heading. I have read through this entire thread (it took quite some time...) and I've had a fun time seing how the deck has evolved and how discussion have gone.

I've often felt that this deck has two major weaknesses:

1) It is relatively slow
This often comes into play against other combo decks as well as against fast aggro decks. This is relatively unique among combo decks since most other combo decks can easily outrace aggro. High Tide can seldom race other combo decks and is often on par with many aggro decks. This shouldn't really be a problem as long as you're familiar with your match-ups and how to play against them. While speed is definitely a huge factor in how strong a deck is, it's far from the end all/say all for gauging the effectiveness of the deck. High Tide's fundamental turn could easily be sped up by adding play sets of Snap or Retraced Image to the main, but doing this sacrifices a lot of resilience, which is one of the core strengths of the deck.

2) It quite susceptible to hate and discard
This is the major drawback with High Tide. There are very few decks today that are without either counters and/or discard and/or some kind of MD hate. Classic High Tide has relatively few ways to defend itself so (I know some of you do not agree with me here, but I often feel that my 7 counters are a bit few when the opponent has 4-5 discards). There are very few match-ups in which you can't play around hand disruption. Save your FoW's for Hymns and Cabal therapies if you can, as to try and not 2 for 1 yourself. If that's not cutting it, learn how to use brainstorms better. There's a reason this card is often referred to as "The Best Card in Legacy". Find people who play maindeck Duress or Therapy, then jam games with them and discuss until you get a better idea of when you should be saving brainstorms and when you should fire them off in the main phase. As an aside, you can consider including main deck or siding in another Meditate in order to come back from large card deficits against fair decks that play discard.

Weakness one cannot really be tackled See notes. The deck cannot really be sped up so trying to race other decks aren’t an option. And I think that most of us can agree that the deck has to evolve somehow. The meta has changed to the worse for High Tide so if we want this deck to become successful again, it has to change something. Thus, being more controlly is probably the best way. Please stay away from this notion. High Tide has enough trouble trying to out-control many decks in the pre-board alone. Post board is a complete nightmare, your relevant sideboard cards are all bounce which are solely meant to be used to clear the path for your fundamental turn. Copies of Counterbalance are already a stretch, though the ratio of power to card slots (tops already in the main) makes it a very attractive choice. If you're using the term "control" as a synonym for permission, then this is something that can be tackled on a meta by meta basis. However, do not try and turn this into a control deck. High Tide simply does not have the card slots to become something like U/W miracles which tries to outlast and inevitably grind out the opponent.

CounterTop is a solid shell for a controlling deck, and just what we need. It attacks weakness two whilst still not giving in to faster decks. The only weakness of the CounterTop suit is that it makes the combo less stable (more dead cards post-spiral). In my opinion, the solution to this is Capsize (http://deckbox.org/mtg/capsize).

To generate inf mana with Capsize, we need: 1 Candelabra of Tawnos, 1 Capsize and that our lands produce 8+N mana, where N is the amount of lands in play So, with 4 lands in play we need 12 mana from our lands (ie. 2 resolved High Tide). With 3 lands, we need 11 mana (3 resolved High Tide). If we have a Top in play with inf mana and a Capsize, we can draw our entire deck and thus win instantly. If we don’t have a Top, you can always bounce your opponents board, in worst case that’ll give you a few turns to build up again.
Capsize is a stable win-con, easy to assemble and fairly quick. I really think that if we want to play CounterTop MD, Capsize should be in the SB or even MD.
Capsize is a neat gimmick, but it doesn't do anything to help you resolve your first Time Spiral any more easily. Four lands and 2 resolved High Tides with a Candelabra in play followed by a wish for Capsize is like the Magic Christmas Land of High Tide combo turns. If you can resolve a High Tide and a Time Spiral, you're already in fantastic shape to win the game and a huge step up in terms of board position. Don't sacrifice card slots for win-more cards (like Capsize) that only help when you're already mid combo.

Other ways to make the deck more controlling could be to involve a second color. While I understand the Wasteland argument (and believe me, it is a very strong argument), with the slower CounterTop build it might be worth looking at again. We could look at what other colors could give us:

Black:
Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Duress - Useful to strip other decks of their weapons against us, also somewhat useful post-spiral to see if the opponent drew FoW.
Toxic Deluge, Drown in Sorrow - Kills almost all hate-bears out there

Red:
Pyroclasm - Kills almost all hate-bears out there
Izzet Charm - Every mode is actually useful. Question is, what card is it better than?
Red Elemental Blast - Meh... Maybe...

Green:
Tangle - Buys time
Exploration, Explore - Have been tried before to get a lot of lands into play
Nature's Claim - Might be useful in SB against... something...

White:
Terminus - Miracle plays it, and with Top, Brainstorm and Ponder we can set up our library almost as much as they can
Humility - If we get this baby into play, we have all the time in the world.
Orim's Chant - Safe combo, and it can buy a turn against aggro.

What saur said is absolutely correct. Any card you add to the deck that is not blue or a basic island dilutes the power of the remaining cards significantly. Wastelands are a prominent part of the format, and many decks cannot afford to side them out in games 2 and 3 simply because they're lands that tap for mana. I spent about 6 months toying with a red splash that had a singleton Volcanic Island for 1x Past in Flames, and that alone was too much for the deck to handle. Land drops are so important for the deck, and having a symmetrical land destruction effect is almost always more detrimental to High Tide than it is to the other deck. Splashes also make cards like FoW and Merchant Scroll worse, as they can only interact with other blue cards. Cases of this being relevant are rarer than Wasteland, but they do cause you to lose games from time to time.

So other colors have good cards and I would really like the splash to be worth it. Is it worth it though? Truth is, I am not sure... I'll do some testing when I get the chance but unfortunately, I'll have to do most of my testing via Cockatrice.
I think the main question regardins splashing is: What would be requiered to justify a splash? If we could make our own non-blue card which would warrent a splash, how would it look? And after we've created our perfect card, analyze if there is a card which is close enough.

Edited for grammar and typos

[flrn]

I can't say that it is correct or incorrect because everyone's play style is different. All I can say is, I would have not mulliganed personally. But again I am stricter on not mulliganing whenever I can. I have the same standards for, standard, he he.

Through playing Standard I learned to mulligan way more hands than I did before. Being unable to cast your spells, because you are greedy is the worst feeling.

[Pox22]

I played my list to a 3-1 finish in a local legacy tournament this evening!

//Maindeck
3x Candelabra of Tawnos
2x Sensei’s Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
3x Cunning Wish
2x Flusterstorm
4x Force of Will
4x High Tide
1x Intuition
4x Merchant Scroll
4x Ponder
3x Preordain
2x Spell Pierce
4x Time Spiral
2x Turnabout
12x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Scalding Tarn

//Sideboard
1x Blue Sun’s Zenith
1x Brain Freeze
1x Echoing Truth
1x Flusterstorm
1x Intuition
1x Polymorphist’s Jest
1x Snap
1x Spell Pierce
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Turnabout
1x Wipe Away
2x Defense Grid
2x Grafdigger’s Cage

My maindeck is unchanged from my last write-up—the Spell Pierces and maindeck Intution are still fantastic. I've posted here on Spell Pierce and its value in countering Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void on the draw. I did make some changes to my sideboard, however. I cut Pact of Negation for Spell Pierce—this might be wrong, but I almost never wish for Pact of Negation (usually favoring Flusterstorm), and I really like the idea of having both the 3rd Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce in the board to bring in against their respective match-ups. I cut Rebuild for Polymorphist’s Jest—which I was excited to start testing the moment it was spoiled to turn off multiple hate-bears. On to the report!

Round 1: Brandon with Chalice Merfolk
Game 1: I play Islands and sculpt while he drops Cursecatcher, Silvergill Adept, another Cursecatcher, and a Lord of Atlantis. He beats me down pretty low and I get a read on him that tells me he has another lord in hand for lethal. I purposefully tap out on my turn for a Cunning Wish and he takes the bait—sacrificing a Cursecatcher to counter it. He untaps, plays a Master of the Pearl Trident, and swings me down to 1 life. I untap, draw, play High Tide and Time Spiral with Flusterstorm back-up. I’m able to go off as he realizes his error.

SB: -1 Candelabra of Tawnos, -2 Preordain, -1 Turnabout, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Wipe Away, +2 Defense Grid

Game 2: He keeps a pressure-light hand and gets down quick Chalices of the Void on 1 and 2 after I play a Sensei's Divining Top. His lack of creatures gives me time to sculpt and make land drops as my Sensei’s Divining Top keeps a Wipe Away in the top 3. When I have 5 lands in play, I Wipe Away the Chalice on 1 at his end of turn and then proceed to go off—at some point I Turnabout him to tap his lands, move to second main, Wipe Away the other Chalice, and drop a Defense Grid to put him in f6 mode.

Round 2: JR with Death and Taxes
Game 1: This was easily my favorite game of the night. I play a turn 1 Sensei’s Divining Top and he plays an Aether Vial. I play two Candelabra of Tawnos as he plays a Phyrexian Revoker on Candelabra and then another on Sensei’s Divining Top. He adds a Spirit of the Labyrinth to his board as I play my fifth Island. I play another Candelabra and pass. He adds a Thalia to his board and I cast Cunning Wish in response for……..Polymorphist’s Jest! He bashes for not-lethal and passes. I untap, he activates Rishadan Port during my upkeep—to which I respond by tapping that Island and another to cast High Tide. I tap my other three Islands for Turnabout to untap my lands, pay 2UU for Polymorphist’s Jest to turn his hatebears into 1/1 ability-less frogs, make mana with my freed Candelabras, Intuition for three Time Spirals, and go off in spectacular fashion.

SB: -3 Flusterstorm, -1 High Tide, +1 Blue Sun’s Zenith, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Snap, +1 Spell Pierce

I debated bringing in the Polymorphist’s Jest—as to effectively have 5 copies maindeck via Merchant Scroll as opposed to 3 via Cunning Wish, but decided against it.

Game 2: The second game was a boring affair as he leads with Wasteland, Aether Vial which I counter with Force of Will. He doesn't get another land and his only other relevant play all game was a Pithing Needle on Sensei’s Divining Top—which doesn't prevent me from going off once I hit five Islands.

Round 3: Bryce on Shardless BUG
Game 1: This game was a bit of a grind. He leads with a Thoughtseize on my hand of High Tide, High Tide, Time Spiral, Force of Will, Sensei’s Divining Top, Preordain, Island. He comments on my “risky keep,” but I tell him I keep one-landers all day, every day. Ain't no thang. He takes the Time Spiral (I think he should have snap-seized the top) and passes. I draw Misty Rainforest and play Island into top. He resolves some dudes and an Ancestral Visions while I sculpt and make land-drops. He has a Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf, and Shardless Agent in play with a stacked hand of six cards—causing me no small amount of worry as I just have four Islands and top in play with High Tide, Time Spiral and Force of Will in hand. He swings—taking me down to 6 life, and plays a land and Shardless Agent—cascading into another Tarmogoyf. I untap and thankfully draw a Preordain to go with my Force of Will. I cast High Tide and Time Spiral—which both resolve. I end up Turnabout’ing him to tap him down and moving to the second main to make my Spell Pierces and Flusterstorms live against his (now tapped) Islands which also tap for a billion. I’m able to make +100 mana and Zenith him out.

SB: -1 Candelabra of Tawnos, -1 High Tide, -1 Preordain +1 Blue Sun’s Zenith, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Spell Pierce

Game 2: He falls into the trap that so many do—keeping a hand heavy on disruption but lacking a threat. People often think this hand is great vs combo and High Tide—but it just lets me do what High Tide wants to do (and something I've already typed multiple times so far): “sculpt and make land drops.” He makes a questionable line on turn 1—fetch for Tropical Island into Brainstorm. I was very fine with that. I draw, play an Island a cast top--he forces it and I pass. He plays a Bayou, and drops a Nihil Spellbomb off of Tropical Island. I…”sculpt and make land drops” and soon Intuition for three Time Spirals (which might have been incorrect in the face of the spellbomb). He drops a Liliana of the Veil as I’m holding High Tide, Time Spiral, Turnabout, Cunning Wish, and an Island. He ticks up, discarding a Polluted Delta and I pitch the Cunning Wish. I play an Island and pass. He plays a land, ticks up and discards his last card—a Misty Rainforest. I pitch the Turnabout. I think it would have been much more valuable to hold two cards in his hand—the extra land in play wasn't relevant and holding two cards in hand represents Force of Will, which at the time I couldn't play through.

But I’m able to safely High Tide and Time Spiral against a hellbent opponent—though the cracked Nihil Spellbomb caused some problems as my deck was down to two High Tides and a single Time Spiral. My hand gives me a top, a candelabra, and cantrips. I furiously dig, netting another candelabra and a Turnabout in hand. I spin top—seeing Island, Merchant Scroll, Merchant Scroll. I put the Merchant Scrolls on top, tap top, and start to say “Hold priority” as I reach for my Islands to tap—as I want to Turnabout my artifacts to flip top twice (drawing the Merchant Scroll and the Sensei's Divining Top). My opponent cuts me off with, “in response to the top…” and moves to tap his Tropical Island and Bayou. I tell him I’m holding priority and consider for a moment. I haven’t yet tapped my mana or announced the Turnabout—and my opponent is clearly telegraphing Abrupt Decay. I pass priority and let him attempt to Abrupt Decay my top. I Turnabout in response to untap my artifacts and flip the top again. I make more mana with my two candelabras and draw the second Merchant Scroll with the Sensei’s Divining Top. I Merchant Scroll for Flusterstorm, and then again for Cunning Wish into a very lethal Brain Freeze.

I explained to my opponent that if a High Tide player flips a top and wants to hold priority with a Candelrabra or two in play—they almost always have the Turnabout, which effectively counters the Abrupt Decay. Waiting to cast the Abrupt Decay in response to the Turnabout actually makes me fizzle, as I would have been short on storm for Brain Freeze with only one Merchant Scroll—and having only cast a single High Tide left me woefully short on mana for Blue Sun’s Zenith. This is all likely a moot point for this specific match—as he would not have been able to kill me in time and I would have won the match 1-0-1. But still a teachable moment for him!

Round 4: Chris with RUG Delver
I’m 3-0 and he’s 2-1 and not only is he a friend of mine…but we also wanted to jam some vintage before the shop closed. I scoop to him so we’re both in the money and so I can play vintage Doomsday vs a sweet mono-blue brew with Standstills, Spellstutter Sprites, and a pile of counters. We roughly split our games even, but I’ll spare you a write-up on vintage, haha. Sorry to cheat you out a round for the report!

Of course I’m going to feel good about a list that didn't drop a game (albeit in only 3 matches), but it played very smoothly and I feel the games adequately show why I've made the changes I've made. Spell Pierce is fantastic in my meta with lots of Aether Vials, Chalice of the Voids, and Counterbalances. I’m also ecstatic that Polymorphist’s Jest performed its exact purpose in its first outing.

Feel free to critique the list, play, or writing! Doing these write-ups improves my memory and attention to detail and builds my confidence to hopefully hit up some SCG Opens as I’m able!

[Mackan]

I played my list to a 3-1 finish in a local legacy tournament this evening ...

Well written and well played! I am a bit curious about your sideboarding as I remember myself siding out all candelabras a lot. You seem to keep at least some of them postboard, could you explain your reasoning a bit?

Also, versus DnT I think you can afford to keep all high tides in the deck as they generally don't play Surgical Extraction. Scroll cost 1 mana less than Wish which is pretty big, even if they have Rishadan Port. Probably over that Spell Pierce.

Im going to test high tide again this week on modo and because miracles is the most played deck I will start playing Swan song main. Any other suggestions to a miracle-infested meta game? Preferably without a splash.

[Brael]

Random thought here (and possibly a bad idea) but what do people think about the new Teferi as a potential untap source as a 1 of? It is 6 mana, but the deck has no problems with 6 mana and the -1 untaps 4 permanents which can be Islands or Candelabras. It would basically fill the same role as Turnabout except it can untap a mix of card types.

[hellhound]

sorry but, what's this new teferi you're talkin about?

new spoiler of khans? ain't see it yet...

[flrn]

sorry but, what's this new teferi you're talkin about?

new spoiler of khans? ain't see it yet...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtfiSe8CEAA-jka.jpg

[lordofthepit]

Random thought here (and possibly a bad idea) but what do people think about the new Teferi as a potential untap source as a 1 of? It is 6 mana, but the deck has no problems with 6 mana and the -1 untaps 4 permanents which can be Islands or Candelabras. It would basically fill the same role as Turnabout except it can untap a mix of card types.

Six mana is something the deck often does if you're ramping into Time Spiral, which fills your hand back up and likely wins the game that turn. If you're playing a High Tide in order to accelerate into a Teferi, you still need gas to draw you draws for the turn, because otherwise "High Tide into Teferi, go" is terrible.

Turnabout is much better than Teferi as well. In addition to costing less mana, it's useful because it's an instant and allows you to tap down your opponent at the end of his or her turn. Or fog their attackers to get another turn. Or untap your artifacts at instant speed to allow you to double dip on Sensei's Divining Top. Plus it untaps all of your cards of the chosen type, and it can be fetched by Merchant Scroll or Cunning Wish. There isn't really any comparison between the versatility and the power level of those two cards in this deck.

[feline]

If you're gonna go that route, go with Mind over Matter instead of Tefari. To note though, Mind over Matter hasn't been used in a couple years now.

[seilaquem]

Hey, feline,

How big was that bluesun on your feature match?

Also, isn't capsize worth running using 4 candelabras? In which metas is it worth it to run capsizes? (it's a card that I really love, but can't get my hands on candelabras for me yet =/)

[203995014]

Hey, feline,

How big was that bluesun on your feature match?

Also, isn't capsize worth running using 4 candelabras? In which metas is it worth it to run capsizes? (it's a card that I really love, but can't get my hands on candelabras for me yet =/)

I personally find in testing that Capsize is fine in versions of high tide that substitute Candelabra for Cloud of Faeries for budget reasons since without it it gets really difficult to find sufficient mana to win with Blue Sun's Zenith and to continue stacking enough spells to use Brain Freeze. However in the builds with Candelabra normally candelabra already produce so much mana that capsize is win more. Capsize can be used to draw infinite cards with sensei's divining top to cut down on the time spent comboing but that's no reason to use a card in the sideboard.

[zeus-online]

So, how good is high tide with snapcaster mages and no candelabra?
Possibly with no time spirals either? Has anyone tried, and was it any good?

[feline]

Capsize is definitely not necessary, in testing I played a number of games and only once did "capsize into candel for infinite mana, into capsize into top for infinite card draw" did that ever actually make a win when getting anything else would have netted a fizzle. So yes it "can" make a difference but it's gonna be like 1 game on average per open.

It does save time though, and if you love your fellow judges, they appreciate a High Tide deck that doesn't go that far over time. A minute or 2 is expected as there is always some matches still going, but I don't ever want to be the last game still going and the entire room is waiting on you.

I wouldn't recommend Snapcaster as it is anti synergetic with Time Spiral. Though to note before I got Candels I did have Snapcasters in the deck for like a month, mostly to try them out.

If you do go Snapcaster Mage, you could look at Cloud of Faeries / Snap tricks too, as Snap can make mana, Snapcaster can net you another card, & Cloud of Faeries can net mana, or draw you a card (cycle 2).

[zeus-online]

If you do go Snapcaster Mage, you could look at Cloud of Faeries / Snap tricks too, as Snap can make mana, Snapcaster can net you another card, & Cloud of Faeries can net mana, or draw you a card (cycle 2).

Yes, thats what i was considering. Snap and/or reset to untap. Meditate to draw cards, snapcasters could also make a more controllish approach possible.

Oh, and it can win at instant speed too!

[ScatmanX]

Just search for the Solidarity thread...

[zeus-online]

Just search for the Solidarity thread...

You see, i thought this was the Solidarity thread :P
Legacy decks need better naming i think.

[clavio]

You see, i thought this was the Solidarity thread :P
Legacy decks need better naming i think.

Wait, if you knew it was called Solidarity and you didn't go to the Solidarity thread, how would having a better name help? Get off of my porch.

[zeus-online]

Wait, if you knew it was called Solidarity and you didn't go to the Solidarity thread, how would having a better name help? Get off of my porch.

Because, i thought that legacy high tide was called solidarity.

When i saw this thread i figured that legacy players worldwide decided that high tide was a better name for the deck (Which it is!) ;)

I did not know that there was two distinct variants of legacy high tide.

[Darkenslight]

Because, i thought that legacy high tide was called solidarity.

When i saw this thread i figured that legacy players worldwide decided that high tide was a better name for the deck (Which it is!) ;)

I did not know that there was two distinct variants of legacy high tide.

Solidarity was the all-instant High Tide combo version, pioneered by David Gearheart waaaay back when. Spring Tide is the not-all-instant version with Candels, Time Spiral etc. There was even a Ug version splashing for Heartbeat of Spring and Early Harvest for a short while.

[amalek0]

god. Last year, there was a guy at my LGS who played old-school solidarity with a brainfreeze kill. He moved out of state for his job, and then a month or two later, the LGS owners (it's a chain) decided that running proxy-allowed non-sanctioned events would generate more revenue, and everyone and their brother started playing sneak and show, to the point where you'd have to maindeck the damn surgicals to get anywhere. But I love the deck, and I feel like it's not a bad choice for a well-defined metagame, particularly if it's sneak and show heavy as the snap/snapcaster mage version of solidarity can usually pull pretty sweet combo offs against show and tell (win after S&T resolves on turn 3 giving you an extra land to combo with). However, it's a perfectly fine meta for triple maindeck ensnaring bridge lands.

[apple713]

What does this deck fizzle to more, not generating enough mana, or not drawing enough? Maybe it loses more because it cant start the combo?

[clavio]

What does this deck fizzle to more, not generating enough mana, or not drawing enough? Maybe it loses more because it cant start the combo?

Not drawing enough, definitely. Sometimes the combo is stopped by counters, sometimes you lose before you even get the chance to go off.

[Heretic_AntheM]

Playable on this deck?

http://mythicspoiler.com/ktk/cards/digthroughtime.jpg

[Darkenslight]

Playable on this deck?

http://mythicspoiler.com/ktk/cards/digthroughtime.jpg

It's arguably worse here than in Solidarity High Tide decks, because you're exiling the cards in the bin, which makes Time Spiral worse.

[clavio]

It looks terrible. Exiling cantrips pre-spiral is suicide, and any time you get enough cards in your graveyard post-spiral to make it "worth it" you are probably in excellent shape anyways.

[Cave]

Given that Wotc has now many years of experience on what can be broken and what cannot, and that both the Blue color and the "Combo" archetype are two things that are being kept under serious vigilance by card designers, i don't think we are getting another bombcard for our deck anytime soon, especially given that Spiral Tide is a deck that 90% made of cards that were unexpectedly broken (one for all, Candelabra of Tawnos).

If you look at all the recently printed strong cards that have an impact in the format, you can't find anything that is fit for a combo deck, except Ad Nauseam and Infernal Tutor.
For the rest, the majority of good cards for comboing are old cards.

I don't think we are getting a new cantrip soon (not after ponder and preordain) or a new low-cost-drawer, let alone a new blue untapper, and for sure not a new blue tutor (not after gift ungiven).
I feel we're kinda stuck with the deck atm. That's so sad. =(

DTT is bad, the delve effect is horrible in a deck that wants its stuff reshuffled for more action. Plus, pay UU for having 2/7 is bad when you can have 4/4 with 2U.

[Kanti]

We are. I play Solidarity but it's the same issue, WotC isn't going to print any blue bombs for this deck. Would need a sick 2cc counterspell (something better than CC or Remand, though I'm sure this is only the case for Solidarity), 1cc super-cantrip (yeah right), or the unbanning of Frantic Search (I woudn't count on it).

[clavio]

We are. I play Solidarity but it's the same issue, WotC isn't going to print any blue bombs for this deck. Would need a sick 2cc counterspell (something better than CC or Remand, though I'm sure this is only the case for Solidarity), 1cc super-cantrip (yeah right), or the unbanning of Frantic Search (I woudn't count on it).

Swan Song is pretty new by Legacy standards. It's awesome, I don't think they will be printing anything better than it in the near future.

[Kanti]

Swan Song to me falls under the Spell Snare, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, and Disrupt brand of spells, with the crappier Force Spike, Envelop, Dispel following that line. It's nice, but it's not really bringing a new function to the deck, just improving on an old one, so it doesn't add anything "new" to the deck.

[JPoJohnson]

We are. I play Solidarity but it's the same issue, WotC isn't going to print any blue bombs for this deck. Would need a sick 2cc counterspell (something better than CC or Remand, though I'm sure this is only the case for Solidarity), 1cc super-cantrip (yeah right), or the unbanning of Frantic Search (I woudn't count on it).


Frantic Search I honestly would not be surprised if it was unbanned at some point. I think it deserves it, but wouldn't be surprised if it never happens.

[Cave]

Frantic Search I honestly would not be surprised if it was unbanned at some point. I think it deserves it, but wouldn't be surprised if it never happens.

Honestly Spiral Tide would be the only deck that would fully profit of it, and even with the huge benefits it will get (it'd gain probably one full turn of speed) it would still be the slowest combo in the format. Just saying, the card is super strong but I don't think it's broken. If I am not wrong, we are currently playing in a format that can cheat a 15/15 spaghetti monster into play for the same amount of mana. Or an enchant that makes you play everything for free. Or a 3/1 progenitus.
Well anyway i don't know if it's gonna happen anytime soon, i don't think so; dci doesn't like the card after all the mess in the early tolarian academy combo days. Anyway that's just trashtalking, speaking about the possible unban of FS won't lead the deck anywhere.

If you desperately want to use the new cards with Delve (there's even a sorcery that makes you draw three cards for the cost of 7U-delve) you can try to put together a meditate+MoM engine, as Feline did with her early version of the deck.

[JPoJohnson]

Honestly Spiral Tide would be the only deck that would fully profit of it, and even with the huge benefits it will get (it'd gain probably one full turn of speed) it would still be the slowest combo in the format. Just saying, the card is super strong but I don't think it's broken. If I am not wrong, we are currently playing in a format that can cheat a 15/15 spaghetti monster into play for the same amount of mana. Or an enchant that makes you play everything for free. Or a 3/1 progenitus.
Well anyway i don't know if it's gonna happen anytime soon, i don't think so; dci doesn't like the card after all the mess in the early tolarian academy combo days. Anyway that's just trashtalking, speaking about the possible unban of FS won't lead the deck anywhere.

If you desperately want to use the new cards with Delve (there's even a sorcery that makes you draw three cards for the cost of 7U-delve) you can try to put together a meditate+MoM engine, as Feline did with her early version of the deck.

Solidarity :wink:

I'm not sure the delve cards are dynamite in this deck. They really thwart the power of Time Spiral quite a bit. I just personally don't see any of them as stand out inclusions.

[Zombie]

If you look at all the recently printed strong cards that have an impact in the format, you can't find anything that is fit for a combo deck, except Ad Nauseam and Infernal Tutor.

You forgot Past in Flames :P

If we're going as far back as Infernal Tutor, I'd like to disagree :P
Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinel, Elvish Visionary, Summoner's Pact, Craterhoof Behemoth, Progenitus, Worldspine Wurm, Deathrite Shaman, Green Sun's Zenith, Mirror Entity, Empty the Warrens, Rite of Flame, the whole goddamn Dredge deck. I'm probably forgetting something, and not listing a crapton of great combotastic cards that aren't Legacy playable but did hilariously broken things in Standard.

[JDK]

You forgot Past in Flames :P

If we're going as far back as Infernal Tutor, I'd like to disagree :P
Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinel, Elvish Visionary, Summoner's Pact, Craterhoof Behemoth, Progenitus, Worldspine Wurm, Deathrite Shaman, Green Sun's Zenith, Mirror Entity, Empty the Warrens, Rite of Flame, the whole goddamn Dredge deck. I'm probably forgetting something, and not listing a crapton of great combotastic cards that aren't Legacy playable but did hilariously broken things in Standard.
Preordain, Ponder, Blue Sun's Zenith, Snapcaster Mage, Gitaxian Probe, Griselbrand & Reanimation-Targets, Pact of Negation, Flusterstorm, Enemy-Color-Fetchlands, Simian Spirit Guide, Manamorphose, the Hermit.dec, Omniscience, the Draw your deck-Spell etc...

But yeah...

[Lemnear]

Frantic Search I honestly would not be surprised if it was unbanned at some point. I think it deserves it, but wouldn't be surprised if it never happens.

Well, if paired with High Tide you have a blue ritual adding an absurd amount of blue mana to your pool with an attached card-selection effect. We already have a 3cc Ritual adding 8-15 mana to your manapool in the format in Form of Show&Tell which DOES NOT OFFER CARDDRAW.

[feline]

Nothing really new on my end. Still love the counterbalances in the sideboard, they come in a lot against most decks, especially if I am on the play. They are not as great though against Sneak & Show since all their combo stuff is 3-4 mana+, but it can still draw out a counterspell. Also against Abrupt Decay decks Counterbalance is weaker, but I've been bringing them in anyway and if they hit it ok, but if they don't then it stays in play!

Capsize is in the sideboard now, I cut the second wipe away for it since I only go against miracles about once every 2 opens lately, on average anyhow. The second "wipe away" is now the Capsize, since if I can resolve a Cunning Wish against miracles, I can probably resolve Capsize as well since they are both 3 cmc, and games 2/3 the Wipe Away will be in the main deck as a scroll target. Also to note of course, Capsize with enough High Tides resolved/Islands in play with a candel means infinite mana, and a top in play with that infinite mana means you can draw your entire deck and just win right there. It's rare, but there are a few instances where, I can't wish for Blue Sun because it's in the maindeck, or I don't have enough mana to make Drawing a large enough Blue Sun on myself, while at the same time I can't Intuition because I've used it and it's in the main already, or I'm down to 2 Time Spirals left in the deck, while thirdly, not enough spells have been cast for a lethal Brain Freeze, or the opponent has an Emrakul like card in the deck. Then fourthly my hand has no card draw left in it. In this very specific scenario that is uncommon, but can actually happen, means Capsize has actually allowed me to continue on and win, where otherwise I would have actually fizzled. Though the number of times this very specific set of circumstances has come up is quite rare, I have noticed it when it happens and it has actually happened a couple times over the past couple months.

As a bonus to the Capsize infinite mana, if you can't draw because you have none left and don't have a top in play to infinite card draw, you can bounce all the opponents permanents before Time Spiraling so if you fizzle, they fizzle too, & on top of that, which I have actually done before, you can have some Counterbalance/Top in play to really make even a fizzle in your favor, since you have that and your lands and they are starting from turn 1 all over again in the situation of a fizzle.

Another thing to note with capsize is that if you're just running low on time and want to turn a draw into a win, or a loss into at least a draw, you can just get Capsize and win right there with the right number of High Tides resolved and Islands in play.

For the ratio, I have it written on my deck box: Capsize into infinite mana below:
1 High Tides resolved - 7 Islands in play = infinite storm, but mana stays the same / 8 Islands in play means infinite mana
2 High Tides resolved - 4 Islands in play means infinite mana
3 High Tides resolved - 3 Islands in play means infinite mana
4 High Tides resolved - 2 Islands in play means infinite mana

Edited to fix error

[Zombie]

Nothing really new on my end. Still love the counterbalances in the sideboard, they come in a lot against most decks, especially if I am on the play. They are not as great though against Sneak & Show since all their combo stuff is 3-4 mana+, but it can still draw out a counterspell. Also against Abrupt Decay decks Counterbalance is weaker, but I've been bringing them in anyway and if they hit it ok, but if they don't then it stays in play!

Capsize is in the sideboard now, I cut the second wipe away for it since I only go against miracles about once every 2 opens lately, on average anyhow. The second "wipe away" is now the Capsize, since if I can resolve a Cunning Wish against miracles, I can probably resolve Capsize as well since they are both 3 cmc, and games 2/3 the Wipe Away will be in the main deck as a scroll target. Also to note of course, Capsize with enough High Tides resolved/Islands in play with a candel means infinite mana, and a top in play with that infinite mana means you can draw your entire deck and just win right there. It's rare, but there are a few instances where, I can't wish for Blue Sun because it's in the maindeck, or I don't have enough mana to make Drawing a large enough Blue Sun on myself, while at the same time I can't Intuition because I've used it and it's in the main already, or I'm down to 2 Time Spirals left in the deck, while thirdly, not enough spells have been cast for a lethal Brain Freeze, or the opponent has an Emrakul like card in the deck. Then fourthly my hand has no card draw left in it. In this very specific scenario that is uncommon, but can actually happen, means Capsize has actually allowed me to continue on and win, where otherwise I would have actually fizzled. Though the number of times this very specific set of circumstances has come up is quite rare, I have noticed it when it happens and it has actually happened a couple times over the past couple months.

As a bonus to the Capsize infinite mana, if you can't draw because you have none left and don't have a top in play to infinite card draw, you can bounce all the opponents permanents before Time Spiraling so if you fizzle, they fizzle too, & on top of that, which I have actually done before, you can have some Counterbalance/Top in play to really make even a fizzle in your favor, since you have that and your lands and they are starting from turn 1 all over again in the situation of a fizzle.

Another thing to note with capsize is that if you're just running low on time and want to turn a draw into a win, or a loss into at least a draw, you can just get Capsize and win right there with the right number of High Tides resolved and Islands in play.

For the ratio, I have it written on my deck box: Capsize into infinite mana below:
2 High Tides resolved - 7 Islands in play = infinite storm, but mana stays the same / 8 Islands in play means infinite mana
3 High Tides resolved - 4 Islands in play means infinite mana
4 High Tides resolved - 3 Islands in play means infinite mana
5 High Tides resolved - 2 Islands in play means infinite mana

Aren't those Tide counts one too high? Capsize = 6, Candle = 1. One Tide is enough for infinite durdling on 7 lands.

[Darkenslight]

Aren't those Tide counts one too high? Capsize = 6, Candle = 1. One Tide is enough for infinite durdling on 7 lands.

TRue. Still, feline, that was a really impressive infinite at the Open this past weekend. :cool:

[feline]

Aren't those Tide counts one too high? Capsize = 6, Candle = 1. One Tide is enough for infinite durdling on 7 lands.

Ah you are right, I had each listing off by 1. Edited & fixed, thank you got noticing that, I might not have for a while or, if ever at all if no one ever said anything.

[iGrok]

Warning! Wall of text ahead!
Tl;dr: I'be been having some success with red splash tide, and have a reason for not caring about wasteland. This is a mini-primer on it.

Hi everyone,
I've posted some on mtgsalvation, but when I was talking to feline at the open in Atlanta she suggested that here might have better discussion.

I've been running High Tide for about a year, and goldfishing it proxied for another 6 months before that. At one point, I experimented with a Red splash, and as a joke, my friend boxian (Ian Marra) (http://www.twitch.tv/boxian0) suggested Firemind's Foresight. I actually tried it out, and then realized how absolutely bonkers that card is. Its a card that no other deck could even try to play.

I know that splashes have been tried before, and the general consensus is that opening yourself up to wasteland isn't worth it. I disagree, for the following reason: There are no decks that play both Wasteland and Emrakul/Progenitus. Therefore, if you do not have access to your splash, you can win with Brain Freeze. But when I can play red, Comet Storm kills faster than Blue Sun, and while it doesn't have the flair of winning by making your opponent draw, the end result is the same.

Here's my current list:

1 Comet Storm
4 Time Spiral
4 High Tide
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Turnabout
4 Cunning Wish
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Intuition
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
1 Counterflux
3 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
1 Izzet Charm
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Wipe Away
9 Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
SB: 1 Firemind's Foresight
SB: 1 Intuition
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Counterflux
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Capsize
SB: 1 Snap
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 FLEX SLOT, currently Vexing Shusher

I should point out that I have 0 graveyard hate in my sideboard. If dredge, tin fins, or reanimator were popular, Surgical Extraction would take the place of Vexing Shusher. However, in general those decks are unpopular right now, particularly in my local meta but also (it seems) at opens. Miracles (and other blue decks) are much more common, and Shusher is the card I'm trying out right now to beat them. It will likely get cut in the future, but I'm already playing cards that should be unplayable (Foresight), so I'm open to trying a lot of things.

Typically, High Tide starts chaining Blue Sun's Zenith's around 17 mana. UUU+X of 7, with 7 mana left to cast spells.
Rather than Blue Sunning, I use Cunning Wish.
17-14: Cunning Wish for Firemind's Foresight
14-7: Firemind's Foresight for High Tide, Comet Storm, and Cunning Wish
7-4: Cunning Wish for Turnabout
4-0: Turnabout
High Tide and tap all lands for lethal Comet Storm.

Of course, there are good and bad things about my list when compared to MonoU Tide, beyond playing Firemind's Foresight or being hit by wasteland.



Pros
Cons


Counterflux beats decks that depend on resolving a particular spell. For example, Sneak & Show variants, Miracles, the Mirror.
Have to count Storm, Tides, and two colors of mana instead of one. Knowing when to float what color and how much takes some getting used to, and can be quite difficult post-board if you bring in Shushers.


Pyroclasm out of the board kills Elves, Hatebears, Meddling Mages, Delver, Mongoose (sometimes), Bob, Revoker, Fish (With only 1 Lord out).
I have to cast a second or third Time Spiral more often than MonoU, since I have no USZ. This makes me a little more fizzle-prone. To combat this, I run 1 Snapcaster for Intuition piles and other utility (flash blocker, Brainfreeze).


Izzet Charm is a good utility card. It does two things we already do, drawing and countering, and it can kill a key creature such as a delver or hatebear Game 1.
A little weaker to Stifle, since fetching the Volcanic Island is pretty important.

[tr]
In longer games, you can go off at instant speed with lands, tide, a candle/turnabout or two, and cometstorm or cunning wish.
If you can't get a Capsize+Candelabra infinite chain, Getting 15 storm for Brain Freeze can be difficult.




Matchups (differences from MonoU, first 20 decks listed in primer):
As the list goes on, entries get shorter. This is because, for the most part, these decks are played very similarly to how MonoU plays.

1) RUG Delver: | Wasteland: Yes | Mill-proof: No | Izzet Charm and Pyroclasm out of the board help this matchup significantly, but it can still be a difficult one.
Sideboarding: +1 Pyroclasm, +1 Red Elemental Blast, +1 Pact of Negation +1 Brain Freeze / -1 Counterflux, -1 Izzet Charm, -1 Wipe Away, -1 High Tide
Sideboard Plan: Buy yourself enough time to be able to pay for Dazes and counter FoW. They need to fight over Pyroclasm on Delver or Mongoose (if you hit Mongoose early enough), and killing one of these cards buys you more time than you lose from getting wastelanded. You are going to win with Brain Freeze, so keep this in mind when comboing off. Your game-winning combo this game is Wish->Foresight[Flusterstorm, Brain Freeze, Cunning Wish]->Wish for Capsize with a candlestick out, or Snap with a Snapcaster out. You can always get at least 1 red mana for Foresight, just remember to float it the whole way through.

2) Miracles/UW Control: | Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: No | One of my most difficult matchups, although that may just be due to having an incredibly good local Miracles player in Brian Plattenburg. Basic gameplan is the same, don't let them stick counterbalance.
Sideboard A: +2 Vexing Shusher, +1 REB, +1 Pact of Negation, +1 Counterflux / -1 High Tide, -1 Candelabra, -1 Izzet Charm, -1 Turnabout, -1 Counterspell
Sideboard Plan: Don't let Counterbalance resolve. Go off as soon as you can with protection, and remember that they always have at least 2 counterspells in hand. They will board out all of their creature removal, so jam Vexing Shusher whenever you want, and remember to float red to make your spells uncounterable.
Sideboard B (If they play heavy on creatures like Meddling Mage, Snapcaster, and Clique): +2 Pyroclasm, +2 Vexing Shusher, +1 REB, +1 Pact, +1 Counterflux / -1 High Tide, -2 Candelabra, -1 Izzet Charm, -1 Turnabout, -2 Counterspell
Sideboard Plan: Pyroclasm kills all their dudes besides angels. Abuse that. Continue to fight tooth and nail over counterbalance.

3) Esperblade: | Wasteland: Yes | Mill-proof: No | This is slightly harder for me than MonoU. I'm open to wasteland, I'm currently not running Top (Though I plan to in the future), and batterskull's lifelink is actually relevant to me. Fortunately though, Bob and Thoughtseize somewhat counteract that. Overall its still a matchup in my favor.
Sideboard: +2 Pyroclasm, +1 Snap, +1 Pact of Negation +1 Brain Freeze / -1 High Tide, -1 Candelabra, -1 Cunning Wish, -1 Wipe Away, -1 Counterflux.
Sideboard Plan: MonoU cuts its bounce, but I bring in Snap for Snapcaster Stormbuilding, and side benefit of making batterskull germless. Pyroclasm their Bobs/DRS/StoneForge/Snappy/Clique, and as a bonus it also hits Geist. Killing these are usually worth a land if you can hit multiple, or make a batterskull stuck in their hand. Cut a Wish because most of the cards left in the board aren't relevant. Cut Flux because its too slow of a counter. If you can get a Volcano to stick during combo, you can Comet Storm, but if not, Brain Freeze is there, and floating 1 red throughout lets you foresight for it. This is pretty much the only time I bring in pyroclasms and leave in comet storm vs a wasteland deck, the other being Maverick.

4) BUG: | Wasteland: Usually | Mill-proof: No | Same basic game plan as MonoU. I'm pretty sure this will get a little better once I play Top. Don't fetch the volcano until you need it, which is usually just the turn you go off. Pitch Flux and Izzet Charm to FoW as needed.
Sideboard: -1 Izzet Charm, -1 Counterflux, -1 High Tide, -1 Candel vs slow BUG / +1 Snap, +1 Brain Freeze, +1 Pact of Negation, +1 Echoing Truth
Sideboard plan: Half the games they'll have wasteland, half they won't. Bounce spells are really good at building storm with Snappy.

5) Jund: | Wasteland: Yes | Mill-proof: No | Exact same plan as MonoU, just being careful about when to fetch.
Sideboard: -1 Counterflux, -1 High Tide / +1 Snap, +1 Brain Freeze
Sideboard Plan: Flux is too slow for the matchup, but otherwise you're playing basically the same game as before. The local Jund player, Ian Marra, plays a very discard-heavy list - very hard to beat. Tops should help this out.

6) Dredge | Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: No | I have no idea if this matchup is better than MonoU or not. I've only played it twice, and won 2-0 once and lost 2-0 once. Hilariously, the plan here is to Brain Freeze for lethal, because it takes so much less Storm than usual.
Sideboard: -1 Counterflux, -1 Wipe Away / +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Brain Freeze, +GY Hate if you've got it.
Sideboard Plan: Echoing Truth is good against Zombies or Ichorids. Brain Freeze them and chuckle.

7) Maverick: | Wasteland: Yes | Mill-proof: No | I get Izzet Charm to kill a Thalia or Teeg, and I've got plenty of time to sculpt the right hand to ignore wasteland, either with turnabout or wipe away on it. Otherwise, plays the same as MonoU.
Sideboard: -2 Flusterstorm, -1 Counterflux, -1 High Tide / +2 Pyroclasm, +1 Snap, +1 Capsize
Sideboard plan: If you have a pyroclasm in hand, all counterspells go to Mother of Runes. The funniest way to kill a Ethersworn Canonist is to flash in Snappy to block it.

8) Ad Nauseum: | Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: No | Exact same plan as MonoU, but if they don't go off quickly, Counterflux helps quite a bit.
Sideboard: -1 Wipe Away, -1 High Tide, +1 Pact, +1 REB
Sideboard Plan: Same as MonoU.

9) U/R Delver: | Wasteland: No (usually) | Mill-proof: No | Only get your Volcano when you need it because of Price of Progress. Otherwise, Play this just like MonoU. This matchup is pretty heavily in my favor, even more so post-board.
Sideboard: -1 High Tide, -1 Counterflux, -1 Wipe Away, -1 Counterspell, -1 Candelabra / +2 Pyroclasm, +1 Pact of Negation, +1 REB, +1 Snap
Sideboard Plan: Same plan as MonoU, except you have an "Oh shit" button for their creatures. Remember to have a mana up for daze when you Pyroclasm.

10) Show & Tell: | Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: Yes | This matchup is so, so much easier than MonoU, because you have Counterflux. They're going to have Sneak Attack or Show and Tell, and a couple soft counters in hand, and you can just say "No." You can even Wish for your other Counterflux, and there's nothing your opponent can do about it. This gives you a long, long time to sculpt your hand. When you're ready, go for your combo. This matchup almost feels trivial due to that card alone.
Sideboard: -1 High Tide, -1 Snapcaster, -1 Izzet Charm / +1 Counterflux, +1 Pact of Negation, +1 REB.
Sideboard plan: Same as before, but with a second Flux and other counterspell fun.

11) Reanimator: | Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: Sometimes (Goryo's Vengance) | This is very difficult for me since I don't run graveyard hate anywhere. Fortunately, it is pretty rare nowadays, though that didn't stop me from running into it at SCG Atlanta.
Sideboard: -1 High Tide, -1 Wipe Away / +1 Pact of Negation, +1 REB
Sideboard Plan: Same as MonoU, and just hope to get lucky. Win your early rounds so you don't have to play it.

12) Belcher | Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: No | Same thing as MonoU. FoW and Flusterstorm are key.
Sideboard: No change.
Sideboard Plan: Force/Fluster them.

13) Elves | Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: Yes | I guess I play elves a little differently than most people. I'll let them resolve Glimpse, I'm just waiting to counter the Natural Order or Craterhoof (or GSZ->Craterhoof). I don't care how many cards you draw or elves you play as long as I can counter those. This is one of my favorite matchups to play.
Sideboard: -1 High Tide, -1 Flusterstorm / +2 Pyroclasm
Sideboard plan: Let them build a boardstate, then wipe it. Let them Glimpse, counter the threats. Remember that even with a lord, the lord dies to Pyroclasm and then all the rest of the elves do.

14) Merfolk: | Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: No | My first round of my first open was against Merfolk, and I got trounced. After that round, I found Feline and asked her what I should do against it. "Don't play against it." So that is plan A! Plan B is the same as MonoU, although you can be more comfortable going off a little quicker since you only need to get to 20. Candels and Turnabouts are pretty important to get through the soft counters.
Sideboard: -1 High Tide, -1 Wipe Away, -1 Izzet Charm / +1 Pyroclasm, +1 REB, +1 Pact of Negation
Sideboard plan: Pyroclasm can be useful if they only have 1 lord. Otherwise, same plan as MonoU, with an REB.

15) Goblins: | Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: No | Goblins isn't very common anymore, and it runs thalia now. Game one is just a race, same as MonoU.
Sideboard: -1 Counterflux, -1 Wipe Away, -1 Flusterstorm / +1 Pact of Negation, +2 Pyroclasm
Sideboard plan: Put away the expensive stuff and kill them with fire!

16) Zombies | Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: No | I have to say, I've never played against this deck. It seems like pretty much the plan for me is the same as MonoU.
Sideboard: -1 High Tide, -1 Izzet Charm / , +1 Snap, +1 Echoing Truth
Sideboard Plan: Honestly not sure here.

17) 12post: | Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: Yes | Same plan as MonoU, with Counterflux to stop any Show and Tell or non-Emrakul. You can usually go off a turn or two faster than them, and don't have to worry about your Volcanoes.
Sideboard: -1 High Tide, -1 Izzet Charm / +1 Pact of Negation, +1 Rebuild
Sideboard plan: Same as game 1. Keep Primetime off the field if you can. Rebuild is for Chalice.

18) Junk/Rock: | Wasteland: Yes | Mill-proof: No | Same plan as MonoU, but be careful about when you grab your Volcanoes. Always remember that you can play the MonoU game with Brain Freeze.
Sideboard: -1 High Tide, -1 Izzet Charm / +1 Snap, +1 Brain Freeze
Sideboard plan: Keep your options open. Brain Freeze works, this matchup has enough disruption that I like being able to go for either wincon.

19) Death & Taxes: | Wasteland: Yes | Mill-proof: No | Can be somewhat difficult game one. The plan here, as always against Wasteland decks, is to hold off on getting your volcano until you need it, or have tapped/wiped their wastelands. The game is going to go long, which means you have time to sculpt your hand. If you draw Comet Storm, the multikicker can actually be relevant, especially if you're trying to combo but don't have enough mana.
Sideboard: -2 Flusterstorm, -1 Counterflux, -1 Counterspell -1 Cunning Wish / +2 Pyroclasm, +1 Snap, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Brain Freeze
Sideboard Plan: You don't have to worry about countering all their hatebears. Just kill them. Every time you cast Pyroclasm, you're giving yourself 2-3 extra turns. You're pulling in most of the relevant cards, so you can cut a Wish.

20) High Tide:| Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: No | Exact same gameplan as MonoU, with the following exception: When they go to draw their deck, Flux or Wish->Flux. I really hope I run into one of you, because I would love to actually play a mirror!
Sideboard: -1 High Tide, -1 Candelabra / +1 REB, +1 Pact, +1 Counterflux
Sideboard Plan: You guys are probably going to bring in Counterbalance, which is something I definitely need to fight over.


Anyways, I'd love to hear your feedback and/or questions. Most importantly, keep pushing High Tide! I'm always very excited to meet Tide players. If you'll be at the next SCG Atlanta (November 29-30), let me know.

[Jesture]

Warning! Wall of text ahead!
Tl;dr: I'be been having some success with red splash tide, and have a reason for not caring about wasteland. This is a mini-primer on it.

Hi everyone,
I've posted some on mtgsalvation, but when I was talking to feline at the open in Atlanta she suggested that here might have better discussion.

I've been running High Tide for about a year, and goldfishing it proxied for another 6 months before that. At one point, I experimented with a Red splash, and as a joke, my friend boxian (Ian Marra) (http://www.twitch.tv/boxian0) suggested Firemind's Foresight. I actually tried it out, and then realized how absolutely bonkers that card is. Its a card that no other deck could even try to play.

I know that splashes have been tried before, and the general consensus is that opening yourself up to wasteland isn't worth it. I disagree, for the following reason: There are no decks that play both Wasteland and Emrakul/Progenitus. Therefore, if you do not have access to your splash, you can win with Brain Freeze. But when I can play red, Comet Storm kills faster than Blue Sun, and while it doesn't have the flair of winning by making your opponent draw, the end result is the same.

Here's my current list:

I should point out that I have 0 graveyard hate in my sideboard. If dredge, tin fins, or reanimator were popular, Surgical Extraction would take the place of Vexing Shusher. However, in general those decks are unpopular right now, particularly in my local meta but also (it seems) at opens. Miracles (and other blue decks) are much more common, and Shusher is the card I'm trying out right now to beat them. It will likely get cut in the future, but I'm already playing cards that should be unplayable (Foresight), so I'm open to trying a lot of things.

Typically, High Tide starts chaining Blue Sun's Zenith's around 17 mana. UUU+X of 7, with 7 mana left to cast spells.
Rather than Blue Sunning, I use Cunning Wish.
17-14: Cunning Wish for Firemind's Foresight
14-7: Firemind's Foresight for High Tide, Comet Storm, and Cunning Wish
7-4: Cunning Wish for Turnabout
4-0: Turnabout
High Tide and tap all lands for lethal Comet Storm.

Of course, there are good and bad things about my list when compared to MonoU Tide, beyond playing Firemind's Foresight or being hit by wasteland.



Pros
Cons


Counterflux beats decks that depend on resolving a particular spell. For example, Sneak & Show variants, Miracles, the Mirror.
Have to count Storm, Tides, and two colors of mana instead of one. Knowing when to float what color and how much takes some getting used to, and can be quite difficult post-board if you bring in Shushers.


Pyroclasm out of the board kills Elves, Hatebears, Meddling Mages, Delver, Mongoose (sometimes), Bob, Revoker, Fish (With only 1 Lord out).
I have to cast a second or third Time Spiral more often than MonoU, since I have no USZ. This makes me a little more fizzle-prone. To combat this, I run 1 Snapcaster for Intuition piles and other utility (flash blocker, Brainfreeze).


Izzet Charm is a good utility card. It does two things we already do, drawing and countering, and it can kill a key creature such as a delver or hatebear Game 1.
A little weaker to Stifle, since fetching the Volcanic Island is pretty important.

[tr]
In longer games, you can go off at instant speed with lands, tide, a candle/turnabout or two, and cometstorm or cunning wish.
If you can't get a Capsize+Candelabra infinite chain, Getting 15 storm for Brain Freeze can be difficult.




Matchups (differences from MonoU, first 20 decks listed in primer):
As the list goes on, entries get shorter. This is because, for the most part, these decks are played very similarly to how MonoU plays.

1) RUG Delver: | Wasteland: Yes | Mill-proof: No | Izzet Charm and Pyroclasm out of the board help this matchup significantly, but it can still be a difficult one.
Sideboarding: +1 Pyroclasm, +1 Red Elemental Blast, +1 Pact of Negation +1 Brain Freeze / -1 Counterflux, -1 Izzet Charm, -1 Wipe Away, -1 High Tide
Sideboard Plan: Buy yourself enough time to be able to pay for Dazes and counter FoW. They need to fight over Pyroclasm on Delver or Mongoose (if you hit Mongoose early enough), and killing one of these cards buys you more time than you lose from getting wastelanded. You are going to win with Brain Freeze, so keep this in mind when comboing off. Your game-winning combo this game is Wish->Foresight[Flusterstorm, Brain Freeze, Cunning Wish]->Wish for Capsize with a candlestick out, or Snap with a Snapcaster out. You can always get at least 1 red mana for Foresight, just remember to float it the whole way through.

2) Miracles/UW Control: | Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: No | One of my most difficult matchups, although that may just be due to having an incredibly good local Miracles player in Brian Plattenburg. Basic gameplan is the same, don't let them stick counterbalance.
Sideboard A: +2 Vexing Shusher, +1 REB, +1 Pact of Negation, +1 Counterflux / -1 High Tide, -1 Candelabra, -1 Izzet Charm, -1 Turnabout, -1 Counterspell
Sideboard Plan: Don't let Counterbalance resolve. Go off as soon as you can with protection, and remember that they always have at least 2 counterspells in hand. They will board out all of their creature removal, so jam Vexing Shusher whenever you want, and remember to float red to make your spells uncounterable.
Sideboard B (If they play heavy on creatures like Meddling Mage, Snapcaster, and Clique): +2 Pyroclasm, +2 Vexing Shusher, +1 REB, +1 Pact, +1 Counterflux / -1 High Tide, -2 Candelabra, -1 Izzet Charm, -1 Turnabout, -2 Counterspell
Sideboard Plan: Pyroclasm kills all their dudes besides angels. Abuse that. Continue to fight tooth and nail over counterbalance.

3) Esperblade: | Wasteland: Yes | Mill-proof: No | This is slightly harder for me than MonoU. I'm open to wasteland, I'm currently not running Top (Though I plan to in the future), and batterskull's lifelink is actually relevant to me. Fortunately though, Bob and Thoughtseize somewhat counteract that. Overall its still a matchup in my favor.
Sideboard: +2 Pyroclasm, +1 Snap, +1 Pact of Negation +1 Brain Freeze / -1 High Tide, -1 Candelabra, -1 Cunning Wish, -1 Wipe Away, -1 Counterflux.
Sideboard Plan: MonoU cuts its bounce, but I bring in Snap for Snapcaster Stormbuilding, and side benefit of making batterskull germless. Pyroclasm their Bobs/DRS/StoneForge/Snappy/Clique, and as a bonus it also hits Geist. Killing these are usually worth a land if you can hit multiple, or make a batterskull stuck in their hand. Cut a Wish because most of the cards left in the board aren't relevant. Cut Flux because its too slow of a counter. If you can get a Volcano to stick during combo, you can Comet Storm, but if not, Brain Freeze is there, and floating 1 red throughout lets you foresight for it. This is pretty much the only time I bring in pyroclasms and leave in comet storm vs a wasteland deck, the other being Maverick.

4) BUG: | Wasteland: Usually | Mill-proof: No | Same basic game plan as MonoU. I'm pretty sure this will get a little better once I play Top. Don't fetch the volcano until you need it, which is usually just the turn you go off. Pitch Flux and Izzet Charm to FoW as needed.
Sideboard: -1 Izzet Charm, -1 Counterflux, -1 High Tide, -1 Candel vs slow BUG / +1 Snap, +1 Brain Freeze, +1 Pact of Negation, +1 Echoing Truth
Sideboard plan: Half the games they'll have wasteland, half they won't. Bounce spells are really good at building storm with Snappy.

5) Jund: | Wasteland: Yes | Mill-proof: No | Exact same plan as MonoU, just being careful about when to fetch.
Sideboard: -1 Counterflux, -1 High Tide / +1 Snap, +1 Brain Freeze
Sideboard Plan: Flux is too slow for the matchup, but otherwise you're playing basically the same game as before. The local Jund player, Ian Marra, plays a very discard-heavy list - very hard to beat. Tops should help this out.

6) Dredge | Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: No | I have no idea if this matchup is better than MonoU or not. I've only played it twice, and won 2-0 once and lost 2-0 once. Hilariously, the plan here is to Brain Freeze for lethal, because it takes so much less Storm than usual.
Sideboard: -1 Counterflux, -1 Wipe Away / +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Brain Freeze, +GY Hate if you've got it.
Sideboard Plan: Echoing Truth is good against Zombies or Ichorids. Brain Freeze them and chuckle.

7) Maverick: | Wasteland: Yes | Mill-proof: No | I get Izzet Charm to kill a Thalia or Teeg, and I've got plenty of time to sculpt the right hand to ignore wasteland, either with turnabout or wipe away on it. Otherwise, plays the same as MonoU.
Sideboard: -2 Flusterstorm, -1 Counterflux, -1 High Tide / +2 Pyroclasm, +1 Snap, +1 Capsize
Sideboard plan: If you have a pyroclasm in hand, all counterspells go to Mother of Runes. The funniest way to kill a Ethersworn Canonist is to flash in Snappy to block it.

8) Ad Nauseum: | Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: No | Exact same plan as MonoU, but if they don't go off quickly, Counterflux helps quite a bit.
Sideboard: -1 Wipe Away, -1 High Tide, +1 Pact, +1 REB
Sideboard Plan: Same as MonoU.

9) U/R Delver: | Wasteland: No (usually) | Mill-proof: No | Only get your Volcano when you need it because of Price of Progress. Otherwise, Play this just like MonoU. This matchup is pretty heavily in my favor, even more so post-board.
Sideboard: -1 High Tide, -1 Counterflux, -1 Wipe Away, -1 Counterspell, -1 Candelabra / +2 Pyroclasm, +1 Pact of Negation, +1 REB, +1 Snap
Sideboard Plan: Same plan as MonoU, except you have an "Oh shit" button for their creatures. Remember to have a mana up for daze when you Pyroclasm.

10) Show & Tell: | Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: Yes | This matchup is so, so much easier than MonoU, because you have Counterflux. They're going to have Sneak Attack or Show and Tell, and a couple soft counters in hand, and you can just say "No." You can even Wish for your other Counterflux, and there's nothing your opponent can do about it. This gives you a long, long time to sculpt your hand. When you're ready, go for your combo. This matchup almost feels trivial due to that card alone.
Sideboard: -1 High Tide, -1 Snapcaster, -1 Izzet Charm / +1 Counterflux, +1 Pact of Negation, +1 REB.
Sideboard plan: Same as before, but with a second Flux and other counterspell fun.

11) Reanimator: | Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: Sometimes (Goryo's Vengance) | This is very difficult for me since I don't run graveyard hate anywhere. Fortunately, it is pretty rare nowadays, though that didn't stop me from running into it at SCG Atlanta.
Sideboard: -1 High Tide, -1 Wipe Away / +1 Pact of Negation, +1 REB
Sideboard Plan: Same as MonoU, and just hope to get lucky. Win your early rounds so you don't have to play it.

12) Belcher | Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: No | Same thing as MonoU. FoW and Flusterstorm are key.
Sideboard: No change.
Sideboard Plan: Force/Fluster them.

13) Elves | Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: Yes | I guess I play elves a little differently than most people. I'll let them resolve Glimpse, I'm just waiting to counter the Natural Order or Craterhoof (or GSZ->Craterhoof). I don't care how many cards you draw or elves you play as long as I can counter those. This is one of my favorite matchups to play.
Sideboard: -1 High Tide, -1 Flusterstorm / +2 Pyroclasm
Sideboard plan: Let them build a boardstate, then wipe it. Let them Glimpse, counter the threats. Remember that even with a lord, the lord dies to Pyroclasm and then all the rest of the elves do.

14) Merfolk: | Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: No | My first round of my first open was against Merfolk, and I got trounced. After that round, I found Feline and asked her what I should do against it. "Don't play against it." So that is plan A! Plan B is the same as MonoU, although you can be more comfortable going off a little quicker since you only need to get to 20. Candels and Turnabouts are pretty important to get through the soft counters.
Sideboard: -1 High Tide, -1 Wipe Away, -1 Izzet Charm / +1 Pyroclasm, +1 REB, +1 Pact of Negation
Sideboard plan: Pyroclasm can be useful if they only have 1 lord. Otherwise, same plan as MonoU, with an REB.

15) Goblins: | Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: No | Goblins isn't very common anymore, and it runs thalia now. Game one is just a race, same as MonoU.
Sideboard: -1 Counterflux, -1 Wipe Away, -1 Flusterstorm / +1 Pact of Negation, +2 Pyroclasm
Sideboard plan: Put away the expensive stuff and kill them with fire!

16) Zombies | Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: No | I have to say, I've never played against this deck. It seems like pretty much the plan for me is the same as MonoU.
Sideboard: -1 High Tide, -1 Izzet Charm / , +1 Snap, +1 Echoing Truth
Sideboard Plan: Honestly not sure here.

17) 12post: | Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: Yes | Same plan as MonoU, with Counterflux to stop any Show and Tell or non-Emrakul. You can usually go off a turn or two faster than them, and don't have to worry about your Volcanoes.
Sideboard: -1 High Tide, -1 Izzet Charm / +1 Pact of Negation, +1 Rebuild
Sideboard plan: Same as game 1. Keep Primetime off the field if you can. Rebuild is for Chalice.

18) Junk/Rock: | Wasteland: Yes | Mill-proof: No | Same plan as MonoU, but be careful about when you grab your Volcanoes. Always remember that you can play the MonoU game with Brain Freeze.
Sideboard: -1 High Tide, -1 Izzet Charm / +1 Snap, +1 Brain Freeze
Sideboard plan: Keep your options open. Brain Freeze works, this matchup has enough disruption that I like being able to go for either wincon.

19) Death & Taxes: | Wasteland: Yes | Mill-proof: No | Can be somewhat difficult game one. The plan here, as always against Wasteland decks, is to hold off on getting your volcano until you need it, or have tapped/wiped their wastelands. The game is going to go long, which means you have time to sculpt your hand. If you draw Comet Storm, the multikicker can actually be relevant, especially if you're trying to combo but don't have enough mana.
Sideboard: -2 Flusterstorm, -1 Counterflux, -1 Counterspell -1 Cunning Wish / +2 Pyroclasm, +1 Snap, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Brain Freeze
Sideboard Plan: You don't have to worry about countering all their hatebears. Just kill them. Every time you cast Pyroclasm, you're giving yourself 2-3 extra turns. You're pulling in most of the relevant cards, so you can cut a Wish.

20) High Tide:| Wasteland: No | Mill-proof: No | Exact same gameplan as MonoU, with the following exception: When they go to draw their deck, Flux or Wish->Flux. I really hope I run into one of you, because I would love to actually play a mirror!
Sideboard: -1 High Tide, -1 Candelabra / +1 REB, +1 Pact, +1 Counterflux
Sideboard Plan: You guys are probably going to bring in Counterbalance, which is something I definitely need to fight over.


Anyways, I'd love to hear your feedback and/or questions. Most importantly, keep pushing High Tide! I'm always very excited to meet Tide players. If you'll be at the next SCG Atlanta (November 29-30), let me know.

If you're looking for feedback, I'd recommend posting this in the developmental deck thread. It seems like you'd know the deck better than anyone else would, as you're the one who created the deck. Traditional High Tide wisdom tells us that splashing weakens the deck in a lot of ways, but if you're convinced that the pros outweigh the cons, I'd love to see a tournament write-up on this variation rather than just a primer.

[iGrok]

If you're looking for feedback, I'd recommend posting this in the developmental deck thread. It seems like you'd know the deck better than anyone else would, as you're the one who created the deck. Traditional High Tide wisdom tells us that splashing weakens the deck in a lot of ways, but if you're convinced that the pros outweigh the cons, I'd love to see a tournament write-up on this variation rather than just a primer.

Sure, can do. I felt like red splash was close enough to high tide that I could post it here, since it runs the same engine and plays the same against most matchups. It just trades slight wasteland vulnerability for faster speed. I feel very strongly that High Tide players are generally too attached to Blue Sun's Zenith - any time you could kill with Blue Sun against a non-emrakul/progenitus deck, you could have killed with Brain Freeze. Blue Sun definitely earns more style points, which is why most tide players go that route, but usually it just isn't necessary. Its time consuming and requires more mental effort, which over a whole tournament adds up. I know I rack up more GRVs in my ninth round than my first or second.

The tradeoff is greater reliance on cunning wish (instead of having a draw X spell), and obviously losing wasteland immunity. I think, but do not know for sure, that splashing takes a little more discipline with regards to mulligans and sequencing. And finally, you cant run counterbalance out of the sideboard. If you want to play that, definitely stick with blue.

I could do local tournament reports, but until the next SCG Atlanta, or maybe Richmond, nothing major for me. And it looks like even local reports will be tough, because my shop is changing from every week to once a month. But I'll do what I can! And sorry for the massive first post. I tend to post infrequently but in depth.

[Cave]

I feel very strongly that High Tide players are generally too attached to Blue Sun's Zenith - any time you could kill with Blue Sun against a non-emrakul/progenitus deck, you could have killed with Brain Freeze.

Yes indeed; in fact, when i'm 100% sure that my opponent's deck is not mill-proof, i just go brainfreeze: it's quicker, much cheaper, and it doesn't waste time/mental resourches. What you seem not to consider, though, is that USZ is basically a huge businness spell before being a kill condition. The deck (or its previous versions) used to run Stroke of Genius as a gas-spell at some point, but they still needed Brain Freeze for the kill. With Blue Sun's Zenith's printing, players realized that the card's reshuffle effect makes it so much better than Stroke of Genius because it can combo into itself (drawing you more cantrips/scrolls) until you can target your opponent for lethal, providing the deck a very slow, yet super safe, kill condition.

If you want to use another kill condition than USZ, and you often need to pass through USZ to find it, you can easily realize that it is only a natural and logical step to make the very USZ the kill spell.

[iGrok]

I agree with everything you just said. Really, I do! I just think it's based on a faulty premise.

USZ as a business spell has a small, but real, chance to completely whiff. You get to your 17+ mana, you blue sun for 7, leaving 7 open so that you can spin top or cantrip into spiral as your worst case. But the real worst case is that you dig into lands, counterspells, and a one of [single tutor or candels/turnabouts/tides] (as an example). What do you scroll/wish/intuition for, assuming you do get a tutor and not just more ramp? Plus, you really need 19/20 mana, so you can scroll or wish for the singleton USZ.

For me, if I have 17 mana and one of my 4 wishes, I can win, no chance of fizzling, and significantly more quickly. 19 mana, and I have 8 cards (wishes&scrolls) that get the win right there. Usually there isn't a problem getting to those numbers - I'm running pretty much the same number of cantrips and tutors, with a wish and Snapcaster in over preordains (and tops to be added). It's true that I can't use USZ to shuffle, but by the time you're starting to dig with it, I've won. So, the question for me seems to be, is that worth being vulnerable to wasteland? I think that, since brainfreeze can kill all wasteland decks, and you can almost always avoid playing a volcano uselessly, it is worth it. But I don't disagree that in MonoU, blue sun is a wincon - I just think that usually brain freeze gets you through games more quickly :)

[Darkenslight]

I agree with everything you just said. Really, I do! I just think it's based on a faulty premise.

USZ as a business spell has a small, but real, chance to completely whiff. You get to your 17+ mana, you blue sun for 7, leaving 7 open so that you can spin top or cantrip into spiral as your worst case. But the real worst case is that you dig into lands, counterspells, and a one of [single tutor or candels/turnabouts/tides] (as an example). What do you scroll/wish/intuition for, assuming you do get a tutor and not just more ramp? Plus, you really need 19/20 mana, so you can scroll or wish for the singleton USZ.

For me, if I have 17 mana and one of my 4 wishes, I can win, no chance of fizzling, and significantly more quickly. 19 mana, and I have 8 cards (wishes&scrolls) that get the win right there. Usually there isn't a problem getting to those numbers - I'm running pretty much the same number of cantrips and tutors, with a wish and Snapcaster in over preordains (and tops to be added). It's true that I can't use USZ to shuffle, but by the time you're starting to dig with it, I've won. So, the question for me seems to be, is that worth being vulnerable to wasteland? I think that, since brainfreeze can kill all wasteland decks, and you can almost always avoid playing a volcano uselessly, it is worth it. But I don't disagree that in MonoU, blue sun is a wincon - I just think that usually brain freeze gets you through games more quickly :)

The thing is, that BF doesn't win through Emmy or Progs, which is why I, for one, would feel that having the USZ is relevant.

[iGrok]

Again, I completely agree with that logic, until you get to your conclusion. Brain Freeze doesn't beat emrakul/progenitus, so you need something. That something doesn't have to be usz. I feel like splashing red gives us access to better cards, like Counterflux for example, and that Comet Storm is equally as effective in Blue Sun's role as "wincondition", but Comet Storm costs less mana. In fact, comet storm takes almost the same amount of mana to win as blue sun takes to draw you 7 cards.

[Cave]

Again, I completely agree with that logic, until you get to your conclusion. Brain Freeze doesn't beat emrakul/progenitus, so you need something. That something doesn't have to be usz. I feel like splashing red gives us access to better cards, like Counterflux for example, and that Comet Storm is equally as effective in Blue Sun's role as "wincondition", but Comet Storm costs less mana. In fact, comet storm takes almost the same amount of mana to win as blue sun takes to draw you 7 cards.

Just one more question.

Let's take it back to the point where you have 17 floating mana and successfully cast a cunning wish.
You don't get to that amount of mana by spiraling alone so I would assume you have cast at least 2 high tide and have untapped your lands through Candlestick/Turnabout at least once.

If you stayed monoU, you could easily snatch in 3 Sensei's Divining Tops by shaving Comet Storm, that random 1x Snappymage, and another card (maybe Wish #4): it makes sense because tops are much better than those cards during your setup turns (comet storm is super dead btw, even worse than USZ i'd say), they win long games and they prevent discard-based decks to wreck your face.
If you get a SDTop and a Candelabra in play (which you should naturally do during your storming process), and you have 17 floating mana, you can Cunning Wish for a Capsize, which is even cheaper than comet storm and doesn't require an offcolor.
You can then proceed to make infinite mana, infinite spells, draw your entire library, bounce their whole board all the way back to their ugly face, then close the game with no matter what kill spell you are happy with (freeze/USZ/Increasing Confusion/hardcast Emrakul/Sage's Row Denizen+Dream Stalker).

Why is splashing red and playing comet storm any better than this?

[iGrok]

That's a good point. I do run Capsize sideboard for situations that I can go infinite, though I haven't been able to run tops yet (I've never gotten around to buying them). Once I pick some up, I'll probably end up with a list like this:
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Time Spiral
4 High Tide
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Turnabout
4 Cunning Wish
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Intuition
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Counterflux
3 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Capsize
9-10 Island
2-3 Volcanic Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
SB: 1 Firemind's Foresight
SB: 1 Intuition
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Counterflux
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Capsize
SB: 1 Snap
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Flex

Probably some tweaks in the sideboard, and put Surgicals into the flex slots. Of course, if I go deep on the capsize plan, I'll need to pick up a fourth candle eventually, right? Or not?

Comet Storm was never the reason to splash, I was just looking for a more reliable and quicker win than Blue Sun's Zenith. Going back to Blue Sun's Zenith will let me play a volcano into a wasteland and float the one red I might need or want while going off. The reason to splash is that Wasteland and Emrakul/Progenitus never mix, so splashing should really never hurt you. I do think that in the current meta, being able to run Pyroclasm and Counterflux is very powerful. Pyroclasm just wipes out elves, which is growing more popular every open it seems, and obviously Counterflux is great vs Show & Tell and Miracles. And Pyroclasm is also pretty good against Death & Taxes, Shardless Bug, and a couple other less popular archetypes.

By the way, thanks for actually talking through this with me! Its always easier to evaluate my own ideas by talking them through with people.

[feline]

Somewhat on the subject enough for High Tide advocates! As it may or may not be known, I do alters. Finally decided to go at it in the High Tide deck itself with 40 cards (though nothing expensive like Candels or Force of Will)

If you have any interest in Alters for your High Tide deck, just yell@me on Twitter/Facebook/in here/wherever, these are what I know I can do that are in most lists, including most versions of any card. For example, I can do alter any version of Brainstorm if you prefer the ones not shown:
http://imgur.com/uuCPqd4.jpg

[cuthbertthecat]

I just acquired this deck again, and it's been a lot of fun to play with. I'm playing in the SCG Open in Minneapolis in a couple of weeks, and I think that playing this deck would be sweet. I'm wondering if anyone has tried playing with Swan Songs instead of Flusterstorms to hit all the powerful enchantments running around, or if the 2/2 is just too relevant a threat or too bad against Cabal Therapy decks to warrant playing Swan Song at all.

[clavio]

I just acquired this deck again, and it's been a lot of fun to play with. I'm playing in the SCG Open in Minneapolis in a couple of weeks, and I think that playing this deck would be sweet. I'm wondering if anyone has tried playing with Swan Songs instead of Flusterstorms to hit all the powerful enchantments running around, or if the 2/2 is just too relevant a threat or too bad against Cabal Therapy decks to warrant playing Swan Song at all.

I've been running Swans over Flusterstorm for a while now. There are some matchups where flusterstorm is better (reanimator, dredge) but for the most part Swan Song is just as good or even better than flusterstorm. I wouldn't feel good about playing a list that straight up dies to reveler unless I draw force.

--

How are you all boarding against 12 post?

[dcollins]

So, planning on playing HT at eternal weekend, since I get to play rather than judge. I'm the crazy guy who wants to splash red, so here are my findings on a bunch of cards:


Treasure Cruise - Sweet new card, but I don't think it's as good for us as Dig Through Time is. Drawing three cards is nice, but we already have that available in the form of Meditate. What we want to do is look at cards and clear the top of our deck after brainstorms or tops, and...
Dig Through Time - ...looking at seven cards is much better than looking at three. I hesitate to call this a mini-time spiral, but in a sense it does allow us to pick the best two cards out of a new hand - it's rare that we want more than 3 or 4 of the cards that we got off of a spiral anyway, so I think this is a reasonable effect for us. That being said, it's much better pre-TS than post-TS. We want to thin our deck by eliminating dead draws post-TS, so it's great to be able to delve away a few fetchlands. In goldfishing, I cast this for UU every time I saw it pre-TS, and never managed to delve 6 post-TS except in situations where I was already winning anyway. I think it's reasonable to scroll for this card, especially early in the game around turn 3 or 4. If we are going to play this card, we want more stuff in the yard - I think it might be reasonable to move up to 8 fetchlands, and to add additional Preordains over Tops, just to increase the size of our graveyard in the early game.
Epic Experiment - This is sweet. If you can get up to 20 mana, you will win the game. In terms of building up Storm, it really is win-more, but it's great at finding the stuff you need. Unfortunately, it's a non-bo with Candel. It does enable your Delve cards, but that's also a win-more situation. Works fine in a list using Turnabout/Rewind/Snap as the primary untap effects, but not so much in a Candel list.
Past in Flames - Also sweet. This one totally isn't win-more, it's great when you draw it in the right situations. I love it as a one-of splash.
Comet Storm/Grapeshot - These effects are fine as alternate win-cons, but I wouldn't want either one in my maindeck. Comet Storm is at least an instant, so you can Cunning Wish for it. Hitting RR is not a major problem even off of a single Volcanic. Grapeshot is not really justifiable in this deck.
Firemind's Foresight - I'm not seeing it. Seems like a risky splash for an effect that is good but not amazing.
Burning Wish - No.


So there is obviously a tradeoff where if you want the Top/Counterbalance package, you're hurting your ability to get things in the yard for Dig Through Time. That said if I was going to register this today, it would go something like:


4 High Tide
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Turnabout
3 Time Spiral

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Past in Flames

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Dig Through Time

4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning Wish

3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will

10 Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn

//SIDEBOARD
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Comet Storm

1 Pact of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Snap
1 Capsize
1 Intuition
1 Rebuild
1 Turnabout

4 Counterbalance

[feline]

Well if anyone's curious, I am still sticking with the Counterbalance/Sensei's Top setup in the maindeck/sideboard. It's just done too much work for me and unless a big change happens, I am very comfortable continuing to run the deck as such.

As for the new stuff Treasure Cruise / Dig Through Time. I don't run Meditate anymore because I can't always reliably use it before the combo turn, & anything like that I don't like having in the main deck at all, that's just my personal preference though so don't take that as some "engraved in stone way to do things". It's why I don't have a main deck Pact of Negation or Blue Sun's Zenith. Though I do admit I always -1 High Tide +1 Blue Sun's Zenith games 2/3 against most decks when I don't know if they might be packing Surgical Extraction/Extirpate effects.

Anyhow. I liked the 1 of Meditate, but not when I was unable to cast it (1st couple turns, possible lethal damage from opponent, etc), so eventually it became another Preordain or one of the Sensei's Divining Tops. So for that reason I was at first glance not as sold on the Dig Through Time / Treasure Cruise. The other thing is that if this wasn't a Time Spiral deck, aka shuffle all your stuff back in. I realize on the first delve you can get rid of a couple fetchlands, but after that it's going to be spells & at first, I was not as big on that idea slowly depriving the deck of more and more spells. But then I realized 2 things. I've never lost to a resolved Rest in Peace/Leyline of the Void & at the same time, against some decks, there will be certain spells I might actually want to thin out (Like Counterspells against a non blue deck.)

Now between Treasure Cruise & Dig Through Time, I like the idea of Dig Through Time more because it's an instant instead of a sorcery (tutorable) & it lets you take the best 2 of what it sees, while even putting lands to the bottom of the deck. Post combo the card seems acceptable, especially if you're floating enough mana.

I guess what all the brainstorming comes down to (pun not intentional). I am not sold yet on the new cards, but it's mostly because I can't always reliably use them before the combo turn, & having lots of 1 cast cantrips feels that much more important for the turn 1 when your deck has only 18 lands. In some ways I count the Preordains & Ponders as lands 19 through 26 in the first couple turns, & I can't do that with Meditate/Dig Through Time/etc.

Which leads me to my last point. As big as I have been on advocating 4 Candelabra of Tawnos, I have -1 Candelabra / +1 Preordain. The list now is as follows if it helps or anyone is curious:

12 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Cunning Wish
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Time Spiral
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Turnabout
4 High Tide
-sideboard:
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Intuition
1 Turnabout
1 Capsize
1 Wipe Away
1 Snap
1 Rebuild
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation
1 Surgical Extraction
4 Counterbalance

As for the "win more" of the addition of Capsize, there have been just enough times where if I didn't have Capsize > Candelabra for infinite mana & Capsize > Sensei's Divining Top for drawing the whole deck, I would actually have had to of stopped. There are some, though not that often times, where you can't wish Intuition for Time Spirals because you've used 2 already, or the Intuition is in the main deck because you've done that trick already. While at the same time, You can't go for Blue Sun's Zenith because you just don't have enough mana to draw enough cards while leaving mana available to make it worth it.
If anyone is interested to know a chart for "when Capsize + Candelabra = infinite mana" it is as follows:
1 High Tide resolved, 7 Islands in play = Infinite storm, but doesn't actually net additional mana. 8 Islands in play = Infinite mana
2 High Tides resolved, 4 Islands in play = Infinite mana
3 High Tides resolved, 3 Islands in play = Infinite mana
4 High Tides resolved, 2 Islands in play = Infinite mana

As for the new cards, I don't have an open for 2 more weeks, so I'll probably do some testing in that time & come back here to blab away more, until then, I'll see you at the next open!

[Cave]

Roberto Libanore - Top16 - Ovino9

9 Island
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

4 High Tide
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral

4 Force of Will
2 Swan Song
1 Pact of Negation

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Preordain
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Meditate
2 Dig Through Time

4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
-----------------------------
1 Turnabout
1 Swan Song
2 Flusterstorm
1 Gigadrowse
1 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Pact of Negation
2 Snap
1 Brain Freeze
1 Rebuild
2 Wipe Away


This is the correct Spiral Tide list of Ovino9 Top16's. The one that's being shown on websites (3 maindeck islands :laugh:) is obviously false.

Comments:
1. Huge number of untappers (6 vs 5 normally played).
2. The list is set up against miracles (2 DTT, and look at the counterspells! Seems like he wants an answer to Counterbalance G1).
3. He said DTT is a really good card, but he missed MD intuition so he will probably go back to a 1/1 split.
4. He appears to like card advantage in the early stages of comboing (2 meditate + 2 DTT) as I do.
5. 61 cards, 17 lands. :cool:
6. You can see the whole list revolves around DTT in a certain way, manabase is full-fetchlands, and 2 traditional cantrips have been cut for 2 GProbes in order to fill graveyard faster for DTT (well GP has very good value on itself, but still).
7. No maindeck SDT, i think it's too slow right now. In Europe you wanna go off before they set up any sort of lock.

[P-E]

side is still missing a card ^^
thanks for the info about his feelings

[Cave]

side is still missing a card ^^
thanks for the info about his feelings

That card being obviously turnabout #4. :laugh:

edit: @feelings. No, i'm sorry if my english is bad and i don't know how to make correct sentences, but everything in my post except point #3 is an assumption of mine. Point #3 is a direct quote of him from the italian biggest legacy forum.

[clavio]

Sweet list. Isn't dig through time and absolute brick off of timespiral? And isn't exiling your cantrips suicidal? Maybe I should test out cards before dismissing them like an asshole.

[feline]

I defense of Dig through Time even though I am not running them myself.

Delving away stuff from the graveyard, cantrips or whatever else, is actually fine. I can say this comfortably because whenever someone has sided out their dead cards (Swords to Plowshares, etc) in exchange for things like Rest in Peace Leyline of the Void etc. I have never lost to that, all it does is just shrink the deck as you go along, but I have never gotten to the point of no cards left in my deck, library+graveyard. This deck can easily go off and win some time before that point.

[clavio]

Doesn't delving away your cantrips increase your probability of getting jacked by TimeSpiral? I feel like a lot of the games I lose it's because I resolve TimeSpiral and get a hand that can make a bunch of mana, counter a bunch of spells....and that's all!

[feline]

Doesn't delving away your cantrips increase your probability of getting jacked by TimeSpiral? I feel like a lot of the games I lose it's because I resolve TimeSpiral and get a hand that can make a bunch of mana, counter a bunch of spells....and that's all!

It would increase your chance of fizzling yes. You want as high of a % as possible to be draw spells in the deck. Hopefully when Delving away cards, after a couple fetchlands if you are lucky (It's rarely ever gonna Delve away a bunch of lands because you only play half a dozen fetchlands, so after that it's gonna be other stuff.) But anyhow, after whatever fetchlands you can Delve away, you can pick and choose between draw spells or other stuff.

I guess basically, if you have 50% of a deck as draw spells, & 50% of a deck as, everything else, as long as you can remove enough no draw spell stuff while having to remove draw spells too, you can the % of the deck the same when it comes to the number of draw spells in the deck as a whole. Obviously though, that will not always happen. Sometimes you might Pay 3, delve away fetch lands and counters and 1 or 2 draw spells, other times you might have to delve away a lot more.

For me the issue isn't the Delve part though, it's that you can almost never reliably cast Dig through Time before turn 4. You'd have to pay 3 mana on turn 3, requiring you Delve for the rest, & since the first 2 turns you can only cast up to 3 cantrips, that + fetchlands would mean after paying 3, you'd still have to Delve 5 cards away. Meditate you can actually, potentially cast on turn 3. (providing lethal combat isn't on board or other stuff from opponent)

Going back though on it, with Dig through Time you can still pick the best 2 of 7, so it's good card advantage. It's almost turning into a Meditate -vs- Dig through Time situation.
-Meditate always costs 3, but nets more card advantage overall when resolved, and is castable as soon as turn 3
-Dig through Time can cost as low as 2, but can also cost a lot more with nothing to Delve during the combo turn. Also Dig through Time lets you pick the best 2 of 7.
I guess in that regard, it just depends on what you want to do.

[TiMeWaLk]

People who dropped Meditate out of their lists have no reasons to look at Dig through Time (DtT). It has the exact same disadvantages. I am one of these persons. The only question remaining is: is DtT better than Meditate? It is very difficult to answer. Pre-Spiral, I think it is. Giving a turn is something we cannot afford anymore. Most of the time we look for specific cards we got discarded, or just combo cards... DtT does it better. Post-Spiral, it can be really horrible to open a hand with DtT because our graveyard is empty... once we get started, it will be better than Meditate but it is not critical anymore....

I would say that the card is not worth playing in HT overall :'(

[dcollins]

I prefer DTT over Meditate, and it's been running well in my sandbox games. Exiling 3 cantrips and 2 fetchlands is fine pre-TS, exiling 3 and 3 is even better, both of them increase your chances of drawing combo pieces and countermagic and decrease your chances of drawing lands. I unfortunately don't actually own any (wanted to get some playtesting in yesterday with my vanilla list and I'm not willing to buy into the PT hype, I'll pick up a playset once the market calms down) but DTT is even been fine in test games post-spiral, as long as you have enough other cards to get a few cantrips in the yard. You'll probably pay 4 or 5, but that's OK in exchange for 7 chances at a Candel or a Scroll. I would not want more than 2 in my 75, but 2 mainboard is fine, and 1 main + 1 side could even work as a wish target, like we used to use meditate. I feel much better burning a wish to look at 7 cards than to look at 4.

As for the playtesting, my two losses were to miracles and infect. Miracles I managed to slow him down a lot, but didn't get there in either game. Infect I got unlucky, went off without enough protection game 2 and lost the next turn, and waited longer than I should have game 3 (didn't expect him to have two +4/+4 effects AND a pendlehaven).

[Valtrix]

Couldn't you run more fetchlands to support dig through time better? Most lists in the previous pages seem to be only running 6 or so, but this number could easily be increased. It seems like adding in some more fetches shouldn't hurt you overall in games, especially since stifle sees very little play right now. Dig is just massively powerful, giving you not only card advantage but selection all at the end of your opponent's turn.

[iGrok]

Couldn't you run more fetchlands to support dig through time better? Most lists in the previous pages seem to be only running 6 or so, but this number could easily be increased. It seems like adding in some more fetches shouldn't hurt you overall in games, especially since stifle sees very little play right now. Dig is just massively powerful, giving you not only card advantage but selection all at the end of your opponent's turn.

Even with only 6 fetches, I'm still probably playing a fetch for 1/2 of my land drops, becausewhen brainstorming or other looking, I'll trade basics for fetches to get the shuffle. I could see maybe an argument to go up to 8 (2 of each), but certainly no more than that.

[Charon]

Even with only 6 fetches, I'm still probably playing a fetch for 1/2 of my land drops, becausewhen brainstorming or other looking, I'll trade basics for fetches to get the shuffle. I could see maybe an argument to go up to 8 (2 of each), but certainly no more than that.

I agree, but I do think that Dig through Time is something I'm going to be seriously testing. While removing some cantrips obviously hurts us post spiral, digging that deep and keeping that many cards is SO strong, that it makes the need of a second time spiral also dwindle.

I think the card has potential.

[iGrok]

I agree, but I do think that Dig through Time is something I'm going to be seriously testing. While removing some cantrips obviously hurts us post spiral, digging that deep and keeping that many cards is SO strong, that it makes the need of a second time spiral also dwindle.

I think the card has potential.

Sure, as long as you remove at least 1 land for every 2 gas cards, you're fine. I'm sure that it's better than meditate. I just don't think you need either. But let us know how testing goes

[clavio]

I completely ditched meditate a while ago and I don't miss it at all. If anything, I would try to add Tolarin Winds to the SB as a one of. There have been times post spiral where I have exactly eleven mana and my only gas is cunning wish. I'm one short of wish->intuition->spiral but wish->winds might be good enough to get there. I just don't have room for such a card.

[BoiledDenim]

This may have already been discussed. I don't play High Tide but I would like to, in the land of unlimited money for cards. In a deck that wants to cast Time Spiral a bunch, and draw relevant cards with cantrips, and already plays merchant scrolls and such, would not a singleton Mana Severance be super nice? After a Mana Severance your Time Spiral is 7 gas cards. That should give you a much lower chance at fizzling out. As in, never fizzling out. Even a hand of cantrips will draw nothing but more gas. Just something I have wondered. You could even run it as a wishboard spell if I'm not mistaken, and just fetch it when you need it (before time Spiral) and then just go off. Sorry to subject jack.

[clavio]

This may have already been discussed. I don't play High Tide but I would like to, in the land of unlimited money for cards. In a deck that wants to cast Time Spiral a bunch, and draw relevant cards with cantrips, and already plays merchant scrolls and such, would not a singleton Mana Severance be super nice? After a Mana Severance your Time Spiral is 7 gas cards. That should give you a much lower chance at fizzling out. As in, never fizzling out. Even a hand of cantrips will draw nothing but more gas. Just something I have wondered. You could even run it as a wishboard spell if I'm not mistaken, and just fetch it when you need it (before time Spiral) and then just go off. Sorry to subject jack.

It WOULD be nice... but it's a sorcery :-(. You can't get it with wish or scroll. If they printed an instant version of mana severance I would be totally on board.

[BoiledDenim]

That makes sense then. So in theory its still doable but you would have to splash red off duals and fetches and run burning wish, which would be good for getting a spiral out of the wishboard as well I guess. interested. i may proxy it up and see if it makes a difference. I just really like Mana Severance in this deck for the same reason I think it would be excellent in Burn.

[iGrok]

That makes sense then. So in theory its still doable but you would have to splash red off duals and fetches and run burning wish, which would be good for getting a spiral out of the wishboard as well I guess. interested. i may proxy it up and see if it makes a difference. I just really like Mana Severance in this deck for the same reason I think it would be excellent in Burn.

As someone who is splashing red already, Burning Tide is significantly worse to play. A) it's a sorcery speed deck (yes so is timespiral but sometimes you don't need a spiral to win), B) you rely much more heavily on red making you weak to wasteland. I tried it out, but those two issues, particularly red reliance, make it much worse than regular tide.

If you were playing Personal Tutors, maybe with some sort of sorcery speed USZ (which I'm not sure exists but might), you could try severance. But personal tutor has been found severely lacking before.

[Charon]

We really can't afford to fall victim to cards that are too situational

[Charon]

Ok, so I played a small tournament last night and ended up top 4ing. I use a list similar to Feline's except I don't run counterbalances mainboard, but SB.

Having played it for a few rounds now, I must say, it just isn't working for me. In the games where it seems to matter it's too slow, and by removing things like grafdiggers cage it also slows down our combo turn.

Feline, do you have any more insight on how it's been performing for you lately? I'm getting tuned as i'm going to be playing high tide at the GP. I played the deck in 2012 when misstep came in and managed to day 2, want to improve my performance in November.

[feline]

Oh, I only did maindeck Counterbalance for 3 opens, then moved it back to the sideboard, the game 1's they aren't so much needed. It's the sideboard games when people bring in a buncha disruption and side out their swords to plowshares/wasteland/etc dead stuff for live stuff.

As far as how it's been performing for me lately, since June 1st I've 13th placed Indianapolis, top 8'ed Providence, did horrible enough to drop for the first time in Legacy at Columbus, 28th Vegas, 105th Portland, 47th Baltimore, 119th Kansas City, 14th place Syracuse, 90th place Washington DC, 76th place Jersey, 44th place St Louis, top 8'ed Atlanta, and then this past weekend in Worcester I went 3-5-0 and didn't prize anything. I hope that is a large enough & recent enough amount of pool to grab from. All of these are SCG Opens. As far as the 2 invitationals Columbus & Jersey. I bombed in Columbus and didn't even day 2, and I made day 2 in Jersey but didn't prize only going 8-8.

Also Mental Misstep Ugh! I'm glad that's likely to never be unbanned.

[Charon]

Have the counterbalances been carrying their weight for you?

I don't have half as many matches as you do with them, but when I've boarded them they have been less than perfect.

[feline]

Yes in my opinion. The counterbalances almost always draw out disruption at a minimum, if they resolve it's stupid.

The worst case scenario is when they cast a delver early, get out a threat, then you cast counterbalance, it resolves, and you still later die. But usually when that happens it's because you didn't get to the combo, which can happen with or without a counterbalance in play.

[TiMeWaLk]

Hello,

I ran a list with 4 CB in the sideboard a long time ago (we were talking about it on the old thread...) and the main problem is not CB itself, it is 4 SDT. Drawing a second one is always bad and make you use mana for finding something new. On top of that, you really want to hit your land drops consitantly. SDT is less good at doing this in comparison to extra preordain. I prefer to run 1 or 2 SDT in High Tide... and no CB, which is sad because the card is really strong against combo.

[Charon]

It's tough, I only run 3 tops as I also hate the redundancy there.

I've talked with Feline a bit about it on Facebook and the Counterbalances really shine for her. I guess I just need to test a bit more.

[iGrok]

It's tough, I only run 3 tops as I also hate the redundancy there.

I've talked with Feline a bit about it on Facebook and the Counterbalances really shine for her. I guess I just need to test a bit more.

I'm also running 3 tops now. It really feels like the right number, we want to see 1 a game, and we draw so many freaking cards. The upside is when you're going off they turn into cyclers (assuming you have a decent amount of shuffle)

[feline]

Yea, if I wasn't doing Counterbalance, I'd only be running 2-3 Sensei's Divining Tops. They were at either 2 or 3 before I started doing Counterbalance.

[rcl]

I'm getting an insane amount of value out of counterbalance. There are so many games that I end up "just winning" when I bring them in. I feel like it's one of the only ways I can beat elves (at least they've got to spend a turn abrupt decaying it..) It is at worst a 1-1 trade with a counter spell and at best your opponent rages and does that thing people do vs counterbalance where 2nd main w/8 cards in hand they literally just throw their spells in to the graveyard knowing that you're going to counter them. My BIG question is what do you sideboard out to bring it in? I've been doing -1 candel (to 3), and then -1 fluster storm -1 preordain -1 depends. Every time I go to sideboard out I feel like I don't know what to do and I feel like what I do is wrong.

I've been running feline's list minus capsize plus defense grid, although up until a couple weeks ago I didn't have (and therefore didn't use) any of the fetches. Last time I played high tide at LGS I got absolutely destroyed by stifle in 2 of the 3 matches I played which was probably an outlier but felt really really bad. I also got beaten by that insane card that turns all basics from one type to another. That was just nuts.. talk about splash damage. The fetches are superior but they do open the deck to stifles and blood moons which are actually fairly common (in my meta) although this will come and go over time. But it is a time walk *or worse* when it happens. It feels extremely bad especially since a HUGE STRENGTH of High Tide is to be blanking all these land hate cards. There have also been plenty of games where I've won with 1 or 2 life. Legacy is a meta of give and take but I'm putting this data point out here because being one of the only mono colored decks out there could let us potentially get more basic and blank more of our opponents' hate. The counterpoint is that I've obviously won games because I could crack and shuffle my deck and find an answer.

My biggest struggle at this point - which is a very scary one - is that my local meta is EXTREMELY aware of High Tide, our LGS has Anwar playing it (who I know is on these boards) and another gentleman who has Top 8'd or won an open with HT before, David Gearhardt works there and lots of the regulars have been used to playing against these decks since he was playing Solidarity. This is obviously a very twilight-zone-esq meta (the other night we counted 21 candelabras between people at the shop) but it really makes me wonder if a huge strength of HT is "security through obscurity" - Feline you do a great job with the deck but I see your opponents even in later rounds making huge misplays that I literally never have the pleasure of having occur against me. Any deck is worse if people are expert at playing against it but I feel that pain is more acute for high tide. That's pretty bad

I'm also extremely concerned that we aren't benefitting from treasure cruise or dig through time. It has become really clear from watching the opens (and from Bob Huang being at our LGS and people picking up his decks haha.. nightmare continues!) that the meta is dividing in to winners and losers based on how much the decks can take advantage of these two broken cards. If we can't use them, we're probably on the losing end. My HT vs *Delver match ups were already really tight, with these cards in the meta I've been getting blown out. I feel like the deck either needs to run them, or the win % is going to drop significantly until they're banned. The only perk here is that maybe the extra graveyard hate will get people off Dredge, hah!

I've also been considering running gitaxian probe. I struggle so much because this deck doesn't give you hand knowledge. IDK probe has problems though. If it weren't 3 mana I'd even consider vendillion clique in sideboard but I believe it's too expensive. I lose regularly against miracles (lots in my meta, what a HARD match up) and it often comes down to having to start a blind counter war, not knowing their hand quality, and losing by one counter spell or a surprise clique out of a combo piece. This could all be entirely due to me misplaying though - vs miracles I often try to go off asap with permission but I've sometimes felt like the better move would be to get them to make the first move, fight on their turn, and then go for it on mine. Doing that seems to simply leave them with lots of mana, countertop, jace, and potentially even more counters in hand when I've run out.. miracles losing a counter war suffers the loss of their 1 threat card (CB, Jace, Entreat, Clique), for us it typically means we've lost a HT and a TS and are basically starting over and require gathering one of each


Sorry for the doom and gloom but these are the issues I've been struggling with in my head for a while. After a few months strictly playing high tide I'm taking a few weeks off and playing another deck. I'm happy to discuss any of this stuff though, would love constructive criticism, and if I have any epiphany I'll chime in.

[Charon]

Ok, and I love the opinions on this as I see how it can work but haven't had them bear out for me.

For example elves,

The earliest I've been able to get countertop active is turn 4, upon which turn you are usually dead anyway? If they don't kill you by turn 4 aren't you going to win that game anyway?

[feline]

You are fine, and you are correct. At my local store, I don't fair as well as I do at opens, because in going to my local store, people there know I'm on High Tide, we've all played against each other a number of times, and they know better what to do and not to do now. When I first arrived at the local store here in Cleveland Ohio earlier this year, I was averaging better finishes than I am when I go there now.

Basically it's an advantage as you said, going up against people who are experienced against High Tide -vs- those that are not. So far at the Open Series, there's enough players that don't playtest against the deck that it's definitely a large advantage sometimes as the High Tide player. I can also understand why people don't playtest against a deck that is often times 1% or less of the room. Just by the numbers alone, if 2 people are playing High Tide in a 300 person tournament, and you will play against only 9 of them to get to top 8, it's very unlikely you'll get paired against High Tide. People only have so much time to playtest against the field and they would be better served playtesting against Delver/Show and Tell/Storm/Miracles/Elves/Death and Taxes/etc decks that they know are much more likely to go against.

The benefit however of playtesting against a rare deck in the format that is Legacy though, is that once you playtest against Goblins, High Tide, Dredge, Cheeri0s, Spanish Inquisition or whatever else, the format doesn't change the way standard does, and that playtesting will pay off forever. That's why if someone asks "what should I play test against in Legacy" I tell them that if they can, they should play test against everything.

[Zombie]

Ok, and I love the opinions on this as I see how it can work but haven't had them bear out for me.

For example elves,

The earliest I've been able to get countertop active is turn 4, upon which turn you are usually dead anyway? If they don't kill you by turn 4 aren't you going to win that game anyway?

In my experience, (on the Elves side) it's not so much that I'll kill you T3, it's that from T3 onwards I pretty much ask "is if okay if you die now?" to which you understandably say "No". Then I ask you again. And again. And again. And each and every answer delays you, some important cards get pitched to FoW or discarded so you need more, and at some point you just can't say no anymore. What the matchup boils down to is Elves' absurd finisher density - what other combo deck can boast 12-15 kill cards?

You want to beat Elves, you have to solve that disparity somehow. For that, Grafdigger's Cage is ideal. Blanks half the kill cards and bringing in Decay for it is awkward. Reclamation Sage is a workable solution but Cage shuts down GSZ, so that's unreliable too.

[Charon]

Right, and it's either cage or defense grid we are removing to play the counterbalance package.

Maybe it's because I should be sideboarding differently. I've been removing preordains, and it's been hurting my post spiral percentages.

[Zombie]

Right, and it's either cage or defense grid we are removing to play the counterbalance package.

Maybe it's because I should be sideboarding differently. I've been removing preordains, and it's been hurting my post spiral percentages.

What's your deck and SB plan?

[iGrok]

if you're having problems with a hostile meta, try switching to 12 post. It is good against most of the decks that are good against high tide. Plus, since you already have the candles, it isn't that expensive!

as for elves, I've said before that I splash red, and that gives me pyroclasm out of the board, which helped immensely. But the other thing about elves is to remember that you can let them glimpse as much as they want, and you can save your counter spells for natural order, green Sun's Zenith, or a drawn crater hoof. If you let them glimpse, your foster storms will actually be somewhat effective. Ordinarily they aren't because L can generate so much mana, but if you let them build storm for you you will be much better off. if they do not get hooked, none of their drawn creatures have haste, so you get at least one more turn to combo with.

[Charon]

12 island
2 flooded strand
2 misty rainforest
2 polluted delta
4 high tide
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 preordain
4 force of will
3 flusterstorm
4 time spiral
3 cunning wish
1 turnabout
3 candelabra of tawnos
4 merchant scroll
3 sensei's divining top
1 Dig through time (flex slot, but I love it so far)


Board

4 counterbalance
2 wipe away
1 blue suns zenith
1 capsize
1 rebuild
1 turnabout
1 brain freeze
1 snap
1 intuition
1 flusterstorm
1 pact of negation



Board swings, and i'm trying new things. Unlike many, I actually like the capsize for mental stamina. Creating infinite mana without going through 10 minutes of motions across 9 rounds really helps me, maybe i'm just less focused than some other players but I value the shortcut enough to give it a slot.

[feline]

Actually removing Preordain for Counterbalances in the games 2 & 3 is pretty much what I do myself. I still have 4/4/4 Brainstorm/Ponder/Sensei's Tops. The other stuff is -1 High Tide, +1 Blue Sun's Zenith (In case Extraction games 2/3 hits Wishes or High Tides.) I will usually -1 Cunning Wish as well if I have to trim more since with a Blue Sun's Zenith in the maindeck, the 3rd Cunning Wish is always for Blue Sun's Zenith anyway game 1 since there's no Blue Sun main. After that if you have to cut stuff and bring in maindeck bounce for decks with possible Meddling Mage/Ethersworn Canonist/Gaddock Teeg/Thalia/Spirit of the Lab/etc, -1 Candel is usually fine if it's against a slower deck. Miracles for example, some lists will have a couple hate bears in the sideboard that come in games 2/3.

Other times I will cut the Flusterstorms because against decks like Death & Taxes/Mud/Decks with 99% permanents in their list, Flusterstorm is pretty much dead.

Also I am liking the Capsize in the sideboard too, saving time never hurts if you have to worry about the clock being against you. Can bounce all permanents of opponents before a Spiral, go infinite with candel, go infinite card draw with a top in play, etc. So for now, it's a staple in the sideboard that isn't going to be cut anytime soon.

[TiMeWaLk]

Also I am liking the Capsize in the sideboard too, saving time never hurts if you have to worry about the clock being against you. Can bounce all permanents of opponents before a Spiral, go infinite with candel, go infinite card draw with a top in play, etc. So for now, it's a staple in the sideboard that isn't going to be cut anytime soon.

And, it is also a bounce! Not the best one, but still. Against MUD for example, I bring it in.

[iGrok]

And, it is also a bounce! Not the best one, but still. Against MUD for example, I bring it in.

I'm actually main-decking it now, with Wipe away in the side. The only time the split second is relevant is against miracles - no other deck has counterspells and something that we really want to remove. Right? Or am I forgetting something?

[feline]

Yea when I realized over the course of 4 Opens in a row I had gone up against counterbalance 1 time, I realized I could go down from 2 to 1 Wipe Away in the sideboard. The Capsize took that slot and worst case scenario against Miracles, if I can cunning wish and it resolves, then capsize will probably resolve too, so I can put 1 Wipe away in the main games 2/3 against miracles, and still have a counterbalance target in the sideboard.

[iGrok]

I play red , so my miracles tech is Vexing Shusher. But that's let me cut all the wipe aways, so I've got 1 capsize main and 1 side. I don't need wipe away for anything else, right?

[clavio]

I play red , so my miracles tech is Vexing Shusher. But that's let me cut all the wipe aways, so I've got 1 capsize main and 1 side. I don't need wipe away for anything else, right?

Wipe away is super good. Just off the top of my head, some dnt players try to be cute and leave a vial@2 untapped so they can flash in some dickhead hatebear while you try to combo off. Wiping away vial saves you from that tomfoolery. Against URW delver they're going to be able to prevent Cannonist (I know not everyone has him, but some do) from being bounced by non split second spells but wipe away will always get it done.

Vexing shusher sounds a little too cute for me. He needs so much red mana to be worthwhile. Is he really that much better than Grid? I've never played with him in this deck. Splashing red is probably still terrible.

[Charon]

Splashing red really takes some of the incremental advantage we get by nerfing their wastes.

For me, missing a land drop or getting a land wasted is about the worst thing to happen. I want 5 lands on turn 5, without fail.

[iGrok]

Yeah, I've been over the red argument before. What it comes down to for me is that no deck has both wasteland and Emrakul, so just don't fetch red if you don't need to. We see enough cards to ensure we always get islands if we want, and even if we're up against, say, D&T, trading a land drop in exchange for pyroclasming all their hatebears has proved to be worth it to me.

Anyways, I don't really like Defense Grid. It keeps us from doing EOT plays before we go off, like bounce, wish, or intuition.

Good point about the vial/canonist things though. Meddling mage too against miracles.

[clavio]

Running this tomorrow at a GPT:

11 Island
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest

4 Time Spiral
3 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Merchant Scroll
3 High Tide
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Turnabout
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Impulse
2 Swan Song
3 Pact of Negation
1 Intuition
3 Cunning Wish

SB: 1 Intuition
SB: 1 High Tide
SB: 2 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Swan Song

[Charon]

Running this tomorrow at a GPT:

11 Island
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest

4 Time Spiral
3 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Merchant Scroll
3 High Tide
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Turnabout
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Impulse
2 Swan Song
3 Pact of Negation
1 Intuition
3 Cunning Wish

SB: 1 Intuition
SB: 1 High Tide
SB: 2 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Swan Song

How did it go?

[clavio]

How did it go?

Lost to burn in the top4. I beat every blue deck I faced.

[rcl]

Myriad landscape spoiled for new commander set, this seems potentially good for high tide. It being EBT is a bummer though


Oracle Text

Myriad Landscape enters the battlefield tapped.

T: Add 1 to your mana pool.

2, T, Sacrifice Myriad Landscape: Search your library for up to two basic land cards that share a land type, put them onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle your library.

[LLCoolDave]

Playing a wasteable land tapped in a deck with practically no other targets feels rather dangerous. It practically eats up 4 mana worth of preparation/cantripping in the setup turns to get another land drop, which seems like a bad place to be in a format that just got quite a bit more aggressive with KtK. If you want to use this land in your combo turn where mana is more plentiful it still eats up two separate untap effects before it starts doing anything.

If the solution to whatever problem you are trying to address with Myriad Landscape is to get more lands into play "quicker", there are most certainly better ways to accomplish that, like Retraced Image which has long since fallen out of favor.

I find it hard to even construct scenarios where this would be better than a basic island, and when the best case scenario already doesn't feel very attractive I don't see how this card would really help the strategy at all.

[Charon]

Lost to burn in the top4. I beat every blue deck I faced.

How has impulse been running?

I have to say, dig through time has been snatching games for me lately, and i'm seriously considering running it for the GP.

[Charon]

On another note as well,

What tech is everyone thinking to improve the delver match? Looking at the eternal weekend finishes it seems like its 80% of the meta.

[clavio]

Impulse has been great. I can't say for sure if it's definitely better than Top, but I prefer it.

As for Delver, I think the best options are Defense grid and jamming as many Pacts as possible. I don't think grid is too good against other blue decks (they tend to bring in permanents that we need to bounce) but it's awesome against Delver.

[Charon]

Interesting.

I've preferred top as a way to keep the combo cards "floating" to help in the discard matchups, but can see how an instant speed impulse has value.

Edit:

Also, on your counter suite. You are forgoing flusterstorm for a mix of pacts and swan song, how is that working and why did you make that choice?

[clavio]

I was expecting to face a ton of blue decks (probably a safe assumption in any legacy event) so the pacts are going to be great there. I've always been extremely happy with pact, I kind of want to fit #4 somewhere. When going off against Delver I never wanted more than one of the one mana counterspells for protection, and if they're really rolling there's no guarantee that I would even have one mana to spare during my combo turn. Swan song is going to be better than flusterstorm as a protection spell, unless the opponent is playing flusterstorms. I'm ok with that though, very few people are running large numbers of flusterstorm maindeck at this point. Swan song also counters enchantments, which I imagine is going to be even more relevant now that people will try jamming SoL to combat Cruise. Sneak Attack, Reveler, and Counterbalance are also bad news. There are also games where I've lost to elves because I tried to flusterstorm Natural Order and they could easily afford to pay for all the copies, where swan song would have been a hard counter. The swan token never matters.

Really though I don't think there is necessarily a 100% correct counterspell configuration after 4 Force.

[iGrok]

Really though I don't think there is necessarily a 100% correct counterspell configuration after 4 Force.

Honestly, I'd run 4 pact before 4 force, especially if you're playing swan song over flusterstorm. Pact is better for protection since it only costs a card. The only reason to use FoW is for the T1 combo decks or Show and Tell decks, and S&T is rapidly falling out of favor.

[clavio]

Honestly, I'd run 4 pact before 4 force, especially if you're playing swan song over flusterstorm. Pact is better for protection since it only costs a card. The only reason to use FoW is for the T1 combo decks or Show and Tell decks, and S&T is rapidly falling out of favor.

Nahh. Counterbalance, Chalice, Sometimes Liliana, Food Chain, Thalia (Really any hatebear), Natural Order, 3sphere. I like to force AEther Vial when D&T tries to drop it. Sometimes you need force to help resolve Defense Grid.

[Charon]

My problem with pact has always been that it is only relevant on the combo turn. I used to run it back when I played this a ton in 2011 as a one of to be scrolled for.

I like flusterstorm for mostly after a spiral personally, and I don't like accelerating the clock of a delver deck, a pact or swan song can be countered, dazed etc. with a storm count, Flusterstorm is essentially uncounterable (except for stifle).

I'm in the process of testing dig through time, and it's been doing really well for me and the fizzle rate has been less affected than I previously imagined. Digging 7 and grabbing at instant speed has been great so far.

[Charon]

So I've played 100 games with dig through time. While I was bullish on it initially, looking at data if just doesn't seem relevant enough.

In my testing, it was relevant in 11 games, I used the following standard:

1. Could i cast it for 3 or less
2. Was it needed to draw combo pieces or protection
3. could i delve maintaining a 50/50 split of land/cantrips


It's great for those matches where you only have one cantrip in the opening hand or are light on tutor effects, but that being said it was FAR too situational to be maindecked, if anything it'd be better in the board and even then i have my doubts.

I truly think it was relevant in fewer games, because out of the 11, only 5 times was i looking for more than one combo piece, so intuition would have been strictly better.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I haven't played this deck for a long time, but I noticed people seem to be moving away from chaining Meditates and are 100% on the Time Spiral plan. How is this going for everyone? I would be interested to hear Feline's thoughts. I tested her top 8 list from a month and a half ago and was consistently wishing I had a Merchant Scroll target that could draw a bunch of cards like Meditate or Dig Through Time. Also, being flooded on Tops feels frustrating. Maybe board 1 with the Counterbalances?

[Charon]

For me, i haven't missed meditate, but I tend to run the deck more like Colin with a maindeck BSZ.

I'm completely going away from the counterbalance method, it just never works for me, and i gave it my all. So i'll drop down to 2 tops as well and grab a precious flex spot.

[iGrok]

The only place DTT should go is where meditate was, if you play meditate. I've also had little luck with counterbalance. I feel like we want to be faster than cb right now, and have something for the long game (read: miracles) in the sb.

Speaking of sideboards, what are y'all running there now. With the meta shifts?

[Charon]

In tuning for the GP, actually miracles isn't my fear. It's u/r delver. It seems almost unwinnable at the moment.

I'm even looking at things like repeal

[clavio]

In tuning for the GP, actually miracles isn't my fear. It's u/r delver. It seems almost unwinnable at the moment.

I'm even looking at things like repeal

What kind of protection are you running right now (main and sb)?

[Charon]

4 force
4 fluster
2 pact
3 defense grid (although not a ton of help)

[Darkenslight]

4 force
4 fluster
2 pact
3 defense grid (although not a ton of help)

Which part of the equation are you struggling with? Is it the dudes or the spells, or is it the whole package?

[Pastorofmuppets]

I want to see someone run a single Emrakul in their sideboard to blindside blue decks with an uncounterable wincon.

[Squirrel]

I want to see someone run a single Emrakul in their sideboard to blindside blue decks with an uncounterable wincon.

I actually test Pearl Lake Ancient in my solidarity board against Miracles :cool:

[Pastorofmuppets]

I actually test Pearl Lake Ancient in my solidarity board against Miracles :cool:

Step 1: Port a tide list to Vintage
Step 2: Splash for Fastbond and Exploration
Step 3: Pearl Lake Ancient


Step 4 is probably lose.

[iGrok]

Thats... actually not a bad idea.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Thats... actually not a bad idea.

Good luck getting to 3 lands and comboing out.

[iGrok]

Good luck getting to 3 lands and comboing out.

was responding to the guys saying pearl Lake ancient in the board for the miracles match up.

[clavio]

You have to ship back the turn after casting him. I don't see what problem he solves?

[clavio]

I want to see someone run a single Emrakul in their sideboard to blindside blue decks with an uncounterable wincon.

This also solves no problems. If you can hit 15 mana winning is trivial. Adding a card that sucks pre spiral and can't be tutored for seems awful.

EDIT: Also you can't really use pact if you plan on taking more turns.....

[iGrok]

You have to ship back the turn after casting him. I don't see what problem he solves?

Miracles has limited removal. You cast ancient, they can't counter it. So they have to swords or terminus. If they do, pick up 3 islands, wait a bit, and do it again. Since you don't have to use your counters on protecting your wincon, you can spend them on stopping entreat/jace.
Yeah, it's incredibly grindy, but you're presenting a clock that they can't interact with, however slow that clock may be.

Edit: I don't think we're talking about pearl lake off high tide, just off 7 lands. Emrakul you'd need a tide, so I wouldn't recommend him.

[Squirrel]

Miracles has limited removal. You cast ancient, they can't counter it. So they have to swords or terminus. If they do, pick up 3 islands, wait a bit, and do it again. Since you don't have to use your counters on protecting your wincon, you can spend them on stopping entreat/jace.
Yeah, it's incredibly grindy, but you're presenting a clock that they can't interact with, however slow that clock may be.

Edit: I don't think we're talking about pearl lake off high tide, just off 7 lands. Emrakul you'd need a tide, so I wouldn't recommend him.

This. I only wanted to tell the community that i think Pearl Lake is quite good, as you can cast him of seven lands, and put the opponent on a clock with them not having removal, while you can even try to go off woth him in play and grow him big. in Solidarity you also have reset so you can try to put him into play earlier (i don't advise this).

It is simply an uncounterable alternate win condition with flash and self protection against a deck boarding out removal (only pyroblast comes in)and boarding in 3 fluster 3 pyroblast and 3 clique in addition to counterbalance, fow and pierces.
Also i as soon as he enters, he isn't that slow. if you cast 1 card, he's a 3 turn clock.

[Charon]

I ended up going 4-2 then having to drop at the GP (GF was sick).

Wins against:

Burn
U/R Delver
Enchantress
U/R Delver

Losses against:

Jeskai control (went off on combo turn with 3 counter back up and didn't have enough game three)
Death and taxes. This one was just bad beats, 6 mulls in 3 games, mostly no landers.

[negativeview]

While I am definitely not new to Magic, I am new to legacy and have decided on this as my first deck (I play combo anywhere it's reasonable, so hopefully this deck won't be too crazy for me). I have already ordered some of the cards I am 100% convinced I want, and am playtesting proxied games and trying to wrap my head around which exact 75 I ultimately want.

To that end, I have some questions that are hopefully not too noobish.

1: The primer, while great, is approaching a year since its last edit. Thus, I don't completely trust it. The store near me that holds Legacy tournaments seems to be primarily three decks if I can trust the top-8 lists: UR Delver, Lands, and Omni-Tell (in the last six tournaments, each of these had 4 appearances, 4 other decks had 2 appearances). If the primer is to believed, none of these are horrendous matchups, and Lands is borderline easy. Is this still an accurate statement? These three decks have 4x as many top-8 appearances than most other decks at this store. Is this a meta that you'd feel comfortable with High Tide in?

2: Is a single Candelabra worth it? Not sure how kosher budget discussions are here (I didn't see a rule against it), but I think I can justify ONE right now. With my proxy testing, a single one never actually felt that good. Is it only good because of how ridiculous it gets with two in play?

[clavio]

While I am definitely not new to Magic, I am new to legacy and have decided on this as my first deck (I play combo anywhere it's reasonable, so hopefully this deck won't be too crazy for me). I have already ordered some of the cards I am 100% convinced I want, and am playtesting proxied games and trying to wrap my head around which exact 75 I ultimately want.

To that end, I have some questions that are hopefully not too noobish.

1: The primer, while great, is approaching a year since its last edit. Thus, I don't completely trust it. The store near me that holds Legacy tournaments seems to be primarily three decks if I can trust the top-8 lists: UR Delver, Lands, and Omni-Tell (in the last six tournaments, each of these had 4 appearances, 4 other decks had 2 appearances). If the primer is to believed, none of these are horrendous matchups, and Lands is borderline easy. Is this still an accurate statement? These three decks have 4x as many top-8 appearances than most other decks at this store. Is this a meta that you'd feel comfortable with High Tide in?

2: Is a single Candelabra worth it? Not sure how kosher budget discussions are here (I didn't see a rule against it), but I think I can justify ONE right now. With my proxy testing, a single one never actually felt that good. Is it only good because of how ridiculous it gets with two in play?

1. It really depends on how you build your deck. You can customize high tide for whatever meta you happen to be playing in. I can't say for sure if High Tide is the best option, but it's certainly still playable. Miracles is the only matchup I see as a disaster right now. Also be aware that when you first pick up this deck there will be a break in period where you will lose a lot of games in stupid ways. Embrace it.

2. One candle is better than zero, yes. You also might get in a funny spot where your opponent will board in Needle game two to name Candle....shutting off exactly one card in your deck.

[negativeview]

Played my second match ever vs a human being and my first Legacy tournament ever today. Match one was on camera. I was both nervous and inexperienced and predictably did pretty poorly. But I felt like I learned a lot about the format overall. Oh well.

The match on camera was vs a Leyline + Opalescence deck that I'm not sure of the name of. I won a match vs Death and Taxes. One of those games was with a Thalia on board with a Sword of Fire and Ice on it. That was rough.

[LLCoolDave]

Might as well take my High Tide cards with me this weekend in case I feel like slinging mono Islands on Sunday for no good reason. Is there a 2 candelabra/no counterbalance list somebody would recommend that I could blindly audible into? I should have all the other cards.

[feline]

Went to SCGATL With traditional Spiral Tide this time around, figure I might as well go back to normal Tide -vs- Reset Tide since the camera time will be much less often next year overall.


Went 5-3 then last round Intentional Draw for top 64 / 50 bucks / 2 points -vs- 1.

2 of my 3 losses were to Delver strategies, 1 was 1st round to ANT, they had the fast start, went off turn 2 both games, and had disruption to set themselves up. Sometimes in a format like Legacy, ya just lose to stuff that's faster than you and that's that.

Next stop Portland, then Seattle! After that I will continue with Tide, but I might mess around with reset tide again once the events become 5k's on Sunday.

[kova]

Hi, I've bumped into a "one mana short" situation while trying to combo off before getting killed. With only a Wish at hand after a pitched FOW. Which got me thinking. If that had been a Dig Through Time and not Meditate in my SB, I would have pulled the combo off... any potential drawbacks that you see here? (Spiral Tide) Thanks:)

[feline]

Hi, I've bumped into a "one mana short" situation while trying to combo off before getting killed. With only a Wish at hand after a pitched FOW. Which got me thinking. If that had been a Dig Through Time and not Meditate in my SB, I would have pulled the combo off... any potential drawbacks that you see here? (Spiral Tide) Thanks:)


That is important actually, when you can't tutor for intuition for spiral because of all the mana costs, that means you have to do cheaper cast stuff, meditate costs 3, but dig with delve costs 2. I guess I just never had that come up when I was running it.

[kova]

That is important actually, when you can't tutor for intuition for spiral because of all the mana costs, that means you have to do cheaper cast stuff, meditate costs 3, but dig with delve costs 2. I guess I just never had that come up when I was running it.

Yes. The other thing is, it lets you see seven deep, not four deep like meditation. Seems like good stuff to me. Worked well for me at today's legacy event too. Cheers

[Charon]

Yes. The other thing is, it lets you see seven deep, not four deep like meditation. Seems like good stuff to me. Worked well for me at today's legacy event too. Cheers

That's SO situational though.

1 mana short, Plus 5 cards in yard, etc. etc.

Not saying it shouldn't have a one of in board, just that it's a very small percentage of relevance.

[feline]

Ok Eric Becker is officially insanely awesome!

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=77388

5th place IQ December 7th 2014:

Lands (18)
9 Island
2 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn

Spells (42)
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
1 Dig Through Time
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
1 Pact of Negation
1 Spell Pierce
3 Turnabout
1 Wipe Away
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Time Spiral
1 Treasure Cruise
2 Uncovered Clues

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Echoing Truth
1 Gigadrowse
3 Gut Shot
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pact of Negation
1 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction

[Darkenslight]

Ok Eric Becker is officially insanely awesome!

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=77388

5th place IQ December 7th 2014:

Lands (18)
9 Island
2 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn

Spells (42)
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
1 Dig Through Time
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
1 Pact of Negation
1 Spell Pierce
3 Turnabout
1 Wipe Away
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Time Spiral
1 Treasure Cruise
2 Uncovered Clues

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Echoing Truth
1 Gigadrowse
3 Gut Shot
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pact of Negation
1 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction

Dat Dragon's Maze tech. :tongue:

[Fatal]

Interesting,

Uncovered Clues vs Meditate

Is downside about Gaining extra turn if fizzle is such a bad that you replace draw 4 on instant to draw 2 from 4 ? Thought that fizzle mostly mean lose anyway so I'm not sure its good replacement.

I can see factor on Uncovered Clues can be cast turn before go of when still forging hand, but turn 3 is little late for it.

On the top I would even use Three Wishes instead of Uncovered Clues since you can safe additional cards after spiral with it.

[Darkenslight]

Interesting,

Uncovered Clues vs Meditate

Is downside about Gaining extra turn if fizzle is such a bad that you replace draw 4 on instant to draw 2 from 4 ? Thought that fizzle mostly mean lose anyway so I'm not sure its good replacement.

I can see factor on Uncovered Clues can be cast turn before go of when still forging hand, but turn 3 is little late for it.

On the top I would even use Three Wishes instead of Uncovered Clues since you can safe additional cards after spiral with it.

The thing is, for an additional mana, you're picking two from an Impulse set. Even at sorcery speed, that's an impressive haul of card advantage.

[esthoril]

The thing is, for an additional mana, you're picking two from an Impulse set. Even at sorcery speed, that's an impressive haul of card advantage.
3 mana sorcery speed to pick 2 out of 4 might be impressive in Standard. This is Legacy.
I much rather have cunning wish to get me exactly what I need at instant speed. Which gives something in the lines of

-2 Uncovered Clues, -1 Brain Freeze, -1 Blue Zenith
+3 Cunning Wish
+4th turnabout

So

On the top I would even use Three Wishes instead of Uncovered Clues
Yes, but not the card.. 3 actual Cunning Wishes ;)

Why?
- By not playing wish you need to play maindeck kills and with just 3 turnabout, getting to a lethal zenith is a lot harder, so zenith and brain freeze are needed maindeck. 2 slots that you will never cast pre-spiral.
Uncovered Clues T3 hoping to find the missing piece so you can combo off T4 is not very impressive imho. Wish at least can get you a counter or turnabout (or maybe even intuition to grab spiral if you play one in side).
- But more important, not playing wish makes you unable to ever sideboard out a high tide. This is one thing you do a lot. Suspect extraction? Board out one high tide. This ensures you always have access to at least 2 high tides and adds the option for T3 wish for tide to win T4.

That said, I do like his take on Spiral Tide. And not playing wishes but simply play both kills maindeck does open up 2 sideboard slots + no wishboard needed so a lot more possibilities for sideboard. I will give it a try :)

[esthoril]

I will give it a try :)
Tried it and went undefeated through 7 rounds of swiss in the Belgian Legacy Cup this weekend. 103 players.
T8 I lost quarter 1-2 against a good friend playing comboelves, killing me T3 last game through a T1 grafdiggers cage.

Played Erik Beckers list
-1 treasure cruise, +2nd dig through time
-2 uncovered clues, +4th turnabout, +1 sleight of hand

dig through time was absolute nuts all day.

So yeah, playing no wish, no candelabra also works perfectly fine :)

[Charon]

That has always been kind of known. You CAN get by without it, but if you grind a hundred tournaments with both, which do you feel will have the best results in terms of winning?

The stability that candles provides is strong and carries through a spiral, I think you'll always have one off's where new tech wins out and we all look, and that is why this is fun, but I just don't know if it's better than candles long term.

[flrn]

Please no Candelabra vs Turnabout discussion. It all has been said tons of times.

[TiMeWaLk]

@esthoril: long time no see :laugh:

3 Dig Through Time? Did you have one stuck in your hand at some point?

So, what's your feeling about getting rid of the wishes? I am talking about "feelings" because it's the only thing that matter on 1 single tournament. Anyway, I remember that you were also making results with other lists...

[esthoril]

Apart from a dozen smaller (30-100 people) tournaments, I T8'd 3 tournaments with 100+ people playing Spiral Tide. All 3 playing a 4 turnabout, no candle version. Just go with what you like most and what you think will perfom best in your local meta.

During swiss I only lost 2 games in 7 rounds. And one of those was because I fizzled at about 30 storm 80 mana after playing 11! consecutive cantrips..:frown: I don't want to know the odds of that happening.

That said, I played 2 dig through time. I goldfished a bit with 3 the evening before but that felt like 1 too many. You want to see one all the time, but never two at once. And you have merchant scroll to get one one. Merchant Scroll being the main reason I opted to play 2 digs instead of 1 dig 1 cruise. I will probably goldfish some more though with minor changes to this list (intuition, meditate, 2nd probe, 3rd dig, impulse, ... instead of sleight of hand and or probe, ... things like that).

There isn't much discard in the current meta (at least not in Belgium) so not running wishes and not being able to board out a high tide isn't a problem. The flexibility you gain from not having to run a wishboard is immense. No singleton pact of negation, no singleton this and that, no 2 killslots in side, ..

In the end my sideboard was very straightforward (but I didn't really test and hadn't played Spiral Tide in quite some time before heading to the tournament, so it wasn't the best sideboard for sure!!)
- 4 defense grid
- 4 counter (1 spell pierce, 1 spell snare, 1 swan song, 1 annul)
- 4 bounce (1 wipe away, 1 snap, 1 hurkyl's recall, 1 rebuild)
- 3 grafdiggers cage

[Shakara]

Is spell snare a maindeckable card? It's a cheap counter for a lot of problem cards like chalice on one, spheres, thalia, hymn, and counterbalance while also being cheap defense against a lot of the format's non delver threats.

[Pox22]

This is why I play Spell Pierce in my counter suite--4 FoW, 2 Flusterstorm, 2 Spell Pierce. Spell Pierce answers those cards on the draw and then some. It's a very effective card that I recommend--and have posted on in this thread.

[feline]

Red blasts everywhere, or decks trying to go around it by playing fast (Storm strategies etc.) MY combined recored over the past 3 events is 3-7-1. Even worse, 1 of those wins was a BYE, and another was an opponent who beat me, then conceded because they wanted to go home. So my actual record is like 1-8-1. I like to have 3 events to draw conclusions from, and well, this is my past 3 events combined. Dropped from each. I don't think High Tide has been this poorly positioned since I've been playing the deck. I am actually seriously concluding putting the deck down for the while, with the format as such, I just can't get there.

Talking to another Tide player at SCGPhilly, they said they lost when their opponent played multiple red blasts, spell pierce, force of will & flusterstorm. Yikes! That's just too much stuff.

[Mackan]

Play 4 Defense grid in the board for red blast/pierce/flusterstorm and mystic remora+cmc1 counters against faster combo.

[esthoril]

Played the same list again in a small local tournament this evening.
Erik Beckers list
-1 treasure cruise, -1 probe, -2 uncovered clues,
+2nd dig through time, +4th turnabout, +1 intuition, +1 swan song

And again it performed like a charm.
Went 3-1
winning against Infect, Elves and ThopterFoundry-CounterBalance-Control
lost a very close 1-2 against Stoneblade.

Game 3 vs stoneblade
I go T4 EOT turnabout, he forces, T5 EOT turnabout, he counters again
I untap planning to win this turn. My hand is 6th land, merchant scroll, time spiral, pact of negation.
So after countering twice already in the previous turns, my opponent would need 2 more counters, and he only has 1 mana untapped and 3 cards in hand.. Merchant scroll into high tide, time spiral with pact backup should do the trick.. only my 6th land is a fetchland and his last 3 cards are stifle (which I hadn't seen in game 1-2), force, blue.. So rather unfortunate to lose this one.

Apart from that the deck is rock solid. Played the list in 2 tournaments now, for a combined record of 9-2-1.

:edit: Edited in decklist for future reference.
Not to sure about the intuition though. DTT is just better in most cases because of the mana it costs less to cast and extra card you get. So I will try something else in that slot.

Lands (18)
9 Island
2 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn

Spells (42)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Merchant Scroll
2 Dig Through Time
1 Intuition
1 Swan Song
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Pact of Negation
4 High Tide
4 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Wipe Away

[Isaac]

Had fun at scg indy today. Dnt was representing its ugly mug and I went 3-2-2 drop. After talking with feline a bunch i'm at a weird stance on how I want my 75 to look. I could go into detailed explanation on a ton of different card choices I can see the deck headed in but all those different choices need further testing before I will mention them.

[esthoril]

Had fun at scg indy today. Dnt was representing its ugly mug and I went 3-2-2 drop. After talking with feline a bunch i'm at a weird stance on how I want my 75 to look. I could go into detailed explanation on a ton of different card choices I can see the deck headed in but all those different choices need further testing before I will mention them.
What was your list? If you haven't tried the wish-less list, I really recommend to at least give the list above a try in testing/goldfishing :). It feels very powerful and Dig Through Time is broken beyond belief. It has won my numerous games that no other card could.

Also I have been thinking about playing annul in the sideboard. It counters a ton of cards we don't want to see, including D&T cards like canonist and spirit of the labyrinth, on top of the (turn 1) vial.

[Isaac]

I Haven't changed it in a while but the list I ran goes as followed.

18 land (6 fetch 12 island)
4 brainstorm
3 mystic remora
4 ponder
4 merchant scroll
3 cunning wish
1 blue sun's zenith
1 meditate
4 force
3 flusterstorm
1 wipe away
4 high tide
3 turnabout
3 candelabra
4 time spiral

sb
2 pact of negations
2 defence grid
1 meditate
1 wipe away
1 echoing truth
1 hurkyl's recall
3 surgical extraction
1 intuition
1 brain freeze
1 blue sun's zenith
1 flusterstorm

I Haven't tried any non wish lists. I also feel that it's wrong to do so. Cunning wish has bailed me out of so many different situations that imo the card is an auto include in the deck. For instance this past weekend I was playing dnt. My opponent had ethersworn canonistx2, mom and a spellskite out. I at eot wished for my recall, took my turn and then passed. he knocked away at my life total some then at his eot I bounced everything and went off during my turn. Another instance from the weekend has me against junk and I sided out 1 turn about and had I not had the wishes I couldn't have grabbed it from the side to continue on with my combo. Those are just two instances. I can remember wishing for meditates to seal the deal or wishing for an intuition to get time spiral. The reason I like wish the toolbox sideboard makes situations that would other wise seems impossible possible.

Now about dtt and the whole candle vs no candle argument. Dig is an interesting idea I will give it that. What makes the card viable is it's searching capability. I can count 2 time's where if it would have came up I could have gotten there. However let's turn this into a bad situation for us. Let's say you are out of gas due to a counter war. You drawl dtt awesome but now you have either two options. 1 go the safe rout and cast it on there eot or 2 delve a bunch and hope whatever cards you pitched that are worth value don't come to bite your ass. In the current legacy world I'm seeing option 1 is not gonna happen. When you have fast decks that also have counters you are on the clock punched in and can't durdle for long. So that leaves option 2 which is the good old hail marry high tide time spiral one two punch then hope on the drawl 7 not to get hurt by the choices you just made. I am not saying I don't think the card isn't interesting and I do plan on trying somethings out so only time will tell.

My main goal right now is to create something better than the current high tide lists people are seeing. One idea of mine was to run a similar list mentioned above but with the additions of explorations and idea's unbound. The idea of the deck was to let you hit more land drops early on and enable you to not worry about daze or pierce. This also would help against thalia and while she isn't a must get rid of it's like having a open wound while working with salt.

[esthoril]

As for your deck, there are several things I don't like about it (and I may or may not be right about them :wink: )

Maindeck remora. The best thing about combodecks is having an awesome game 1 against the field because your deck is pure efficiency and they have dead cards. After side, they have less dead cards, and you lose some of your efficiency because you have to board things in. By playing maindeck remora, you already play a sub-optimal engine game 1. Not something combo wants to do. Much better off to change them to Preordains. You really don't want cards game 1 that are dead 50% of matchups and dead 100% of matchups postspiral.
Maindeck bounce when you have Cunning Wish. There are hardly ever things we want to bounce game 1 and if so, you still have acces to it through wish. This is another maindeck slot that can get better use.
No 4 turnabout. If you don't play it in the sideboard, you should be playing the 4th one main before adding more candelabra's. Candle does not pitch to force, candle does not tap your blue opponents lands EOT (and even costs you more mana to untap 3+ land). It makes games vs blue decks much much easier. Also tapping all of D&T's creatures so you don't care about Mother when you want to snap/bounce a hatebear. Being able to bounce your candle(s) for even more mana is win more in games that are already won. Having candle when you really want to tap your opponents lands EOT actually makes you lose games because they have too much counters available. :edit: Another thing, T5 facing lethal, 5 lands, turnabout, spiral and you may very well win. 5 lands, candle, spiral and you are simply dead.
Meditate Outdated. DTT does a much better job, does it cheaper and is also very useful prespiral. T4 scroll for DTT, play it EOT, untap, win.

Eric Becker's Wish/Candle-less list hasn't been played a lot, yet it already made some T8s in larger tournaments. Something I haven't seen more traditional lists (like I too used to play) do in a long time. So even if it feels wrong to do so, put aside your feelings and try it out, so you have actual proof for yourself whether it is good or not, rather than some gut feeling. I know I did and it won me a tropical + 4 fetchland right away losing only a single game during 7 rounds of swiss.
It may not be the perfect list yet for the current meta, but it sure does feel very powerful and puts up results.

[Ellomdian]

Red blasts everywhere...

I have to imagine this is going to start to trend downward with the Treasure Cruise banning - there are enough non-blue decks that are competitive, and you don't have the near-guaranteed payoff spell every other match to justify the MD inclusion. Miracles was really the only non-red base deck that could afford to spend a slot or 2 on the card before.

Did you see any indication that the format might be a bit more friendly to Spiraling in Indy?

[feline]

Oh geesh yes. Already since the banning, doing the IQ in DC with Solidarity, and doing Indy with Spiral Tide, I already feel much better about these 2 performances alone. I didn't day 2 Indy but I still had a winning record. On top of that, my last 2 matches / losses, were round 8 against miracles, & round 9 against miracles, which is a tough match up.

My record COMBINED from SCG Seattle's IQ, the Columbus IQ & the Philly 2 day Open (Treasure Cruise Era), was 3-7-1 dropping from all 3 events. On top of that, 1 of my wins was a bye (The Open in Philly) and a second win was someone round 4 in Philly conceding after they won because they wanted to go home instead.

It might sound extreme, but the shift has been that real for me, it went from "awesome High Tide" to "Treasure Cruise meta, every deck is faster or has added Red Blasts to their counter spell package" to "Back to awesome High Tide potential."

[Isaac]

I here you feline.

[Isaac]

I agree with most of what you mentioned. Remora is a much more useful tool than I think you give it credit for. Storm which took two top 8 slots in scg indy cannot beat that card. It's very useful vs bug rug miracles omni-tell sneek n show reanimator and esper deathblade. Last weekend I played it against lands and it drew me 5 cards. I also played it against a blue white delver and again it helped me to combo off. When I've attempted to combo off and use the majority of my spells ( I could be doing it wrong btw ) if I don't get there per say I am dead in the water. This has happened numerous times against rug. Having 5 lands casting high tide to a responce of daze or pierce then paying 1 leaving 3 or two leaving 2 mana open or countering. Then they respond with another counter or let you proceed into a turn about via situation 1 and then try and counter again. Fluster storm helped us out a bit post board but still having the mana and right cards/counters to fight these war's hadn't been easy. That is until I tried remora out. Yes I realize the upkeep cost and it's never really been an issue. You will have mana open for eot brainstorms or going the ponder rout main phase. Playing the card this past weekend a situation happened like this. Upkeep in response to the trigger cast high tide. Response with spell pierce. Trigger drawl I pay the two. Respond with brainstorming. Trigger I drawl a card and let brainstorm resolve. Daze still in response. Trigger drawl a card forceing daze pitching a card I drew off remora. High tide resolves. Still in response cast turn about targeting me. Turn about resolves. Don't pay for remora and kill them. I have done this bare minimum of 10 times maybe even 20. Same exact scenario but with different responses. With that all said I do plan on testing out the deck but to go even further and gather more information about cards choices. The main deck bounce has been in there for dnt decks. I really hadn't thought of to many things id rather have then that. Remember this is an old list that I still have sleeved so me knowing there was results with spiral tide recently were non existent. I do plan on making changes though and trying out the no wish no candle version. After debates I'm going with the same version as yourself -1 swan song +1 spell snare. Might take the pierce out as well for a second snare. Snare is to good right now not to try out.



As for your deck, there are several things I don't like about it (and I may or may not be right about them :wink: )

Maindeck remora. The best thing about combodecks is having an awesome game 1 against the field because your deck is pure efficiency and they have dead cards. After side, they have less dead cards, and you lose some of your efficiency because you have to board things in. By playing maindeck remora, you already play a sub-optimal engine game 1. Not something combo wants to do. Much better off to change them to Preordains. You really don't want cards game 1 that are dead 50% of matchups and dead 100% of matchups postspiral.
Maindeck bounce when you have Cunning Wish. There are hardly ever things we want to bounce game 1 and if so, you still have acces to it through wish. This is another maindeck slot that can get better use.
No 4 turnabout. If you don't play it in the sideboard, you should be playing the 4th one main before adding more candelabra's. Candle does not pitch to force, candle does not tap your blue opponents lands EOT (and even costs you more mana to untap 3+ land). It makes games vs blue decks much much easier. Also tapping all of D&T's creatures so you don't care about Mother when you want to snap/bounce a hatebear. Being able to bounce your candle(s) for even more mana is win more in games that are already won. Having candle when you really want to tap your opponents lands EOT actually makes you lose games because they have too much counters available. :edit: Another thing, T5 facing lethal, 5 lands, turnabout, spiral and you may very well win. 5 lands, candle, spiral and you are simply dead.
Meditate Outdated. DTT does a much better job, does it cheaper and is also very useful prespiral. T4 scroll for DTT, play it EOT, untap, win.

Eric Becker's Wish/Candle-less list hasn't been played a lot, yet it already made some T8s in larger tournaments. Something I haven't seen more traditional lists (like I too used to play) do in a long time. So even if it feels wrong to do so, put aside your feelings and try it out, so you have actual proof for yourself whether it is good or not, rather than some gut feeling. I know I did and it won me a tropical + 4 fetchland right away losing only a single game during 7 rounds of swiss.
It may not be the perfect list yet for the current meta, but it sure does feel very powerful and puts up results.

[Islandswamp]

High Tide seems like such a cool deck. I remember combo winter, and I remember when WOTC banned Tolarian Academy to try and stop combo decks, and the first High Tide deck showed up at Pro Tour: Rome.

I have been pricing this deck on MTGO, to see if I can pick up the cards soon.

[Lemnear]

I agree with most of what you mentioned. Remora is a much more useful tool than I think you give it credit for. Storm which took two top 8 slots in scg indy cannot beat that card.

https://www.griffinalters.com/media/cache/ae/0f/ae0f6f652b197e075756fda0027d56d3.jpg

Please...

[esthoril]

I agree with most of what you mentioned. Remora is a much more useful tool than I think you give it credit for.
I know how good remora can be and I have played it myself. My point was that you want your deck to be as streamlined as possible game 1. And remora kinda spoils that as it is a dead card against numerous opponents. Post-side, go ahead :)
As far spell snare, I played 1 spell pierce, 1 swan song, 1 flusterstorm main last time just to have a bit diversity. Not sure about spell snare as it doesn't really stop opposing counters (thus helping us to combo off). Spell pierce is a hardcounter if the opponent is tapped out (which seems to happen quite a lot with a little help from turnabout).

Against a good ANT player, we are the underdog. We cannot realistically beat a T1 swarm if we don't have force.

[TiMeWaLk]

As for your deck, there are several things I don't like about it (and I may or may not be right about them :wink: )

Maindeck remora. The best thing about combodecks is having an awesome game 1 against the field because your deck is pure efficiency and they have dead cards. After side, they have less dead cards, and you lose some of your efficiency because you have to board things in. By playing maindeck remora, you already play a sub-optimal engine game 1. Not something combo wants to do. Much better off to change them to Preordains. You really don't want cards game 1 that are dead 50% of matchups and dead 100% of matchups postspiral.
Maindeck bounce when you have Cunning Wish. There are hardly ever things we want to bounce game 1 and if so, you still have acces to it through wish. This is another maindeck slot that can get better use.
No 4 turnabout. If you don't play it in the sideboard, you should be playing the 4th one main before adding more candelabra's. Candle does not pitch to force, candle does not tap your blue opponents lands EOT (and even costs you more mana to untap 3+ land). It makes games vs blue decks much much easier. Also tapping all of D&T's creatures so you don't care about Mother when you want to snap/bounce a hatebear. Being able to bounce your candle(s) for even more mana is win more in games that are already won. Having candle when you really want to tap your opponents lands EOT actually makes you lose games because they have too much counters available. :edit: Another thing, T5 facing lethal, 5 lands, turnabout, spiral and you may very well win. 5 lands, candle, spiral and you are simply dead.
Meditate Outdated. DTT does a much better job, does it cheaper and is also very useful prespiral. T4 scroll for DTT, play it EOT, untap, win.

Eric Becker's Wish/Candle-less list hasn't been played a lot, yet it already made some T8s in larger tournaments. Something I haven't seen more traditional lists (like I too used to play) do in a long time. So even if it feels wrong to do so, put aside your feelings and try it out, so you have actual proof for yourself whether it is good or not, rather than some gut feeling. I know I did and it won me a tropical + 4 fetchland right away losing only a single game during 7 rounds of swiss.
It may not be the perfect list yet for the current meta, but it sure does feel very powerful and puts up results.

I have not been around for quite some time (no internet connection), so my reaction arrive a bit late: I agree with you about the need to play a wishless list. For a long time, I had the impression that Wish was one of the weakest cards of the deck, a necessary evil... It seems that Erik found a way to get rid of them efficiently thanks to DTT. I also agree with most of the changes you did to Erik's list, even though I still hate to have two kills in the main deck, and I hate BF which is ONLY a kill...

[Bosaapje]

Hi everyone,

I'm thinking about building High Tide but without Candelabra's, because I don't want to spend 200€+ (or how much they are) on a card that's only viable in this deck. Is it still viable then? And I heard about versions that are able to combo off on instant speed but what I don't get is that you don't have the Time Spirals then, don't you miss them too much to combo?

Thanks.

[TiMeWaLk]

Hi,
You should have a look at the Solidarity thread. That's the deck you are talking about. However, I would play High Tide without Candles (with 4 Turnabouts and Faeries if needed) before trying to go the Solidarity route... Indeed, Time Spiral absence is felt...

[Bosaapje]

Hi,
You should have a look at the Solidarity thread. That's the deck you are talking about. However, I would play High Tide without Candles (with 4 Turnabouts and Faeries if needed) before trying to go the Solidarity route... Indeed, Time Spiral absence is felt...

I would like to play the best deck based on High Tide without Candles. If that is High Tide then I'm gonna play that, if that's Solidarity I'll play that. And why is High Tide or Solidarity better than the other?

[TiMeWaLk]

High Tide is better, in terms of results, because you can play sorceries: Time Spiral, Merchant Scroll and Ponder for example. Playing full instant and having access to Reset is no enough in comparison.

[Bosaapje]

Okay, I'll go for High Tide then. I'll brew a list.

EDIT: Nevermind, I'll just take a list from the internet and start playing with that. I don't know enough about the deck yet to play a card more or a card less from specific cards.

[TiMeWaLk]

A list worth sharing, isn't it esthoril?

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9035&d=251480&f=LE

9 Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

4 Time Spiral
4 High Tide
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Turnabout
4 Brainstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
2 Dig Through Time
1 Pact of Negation
1 Sleight of Hand
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Spell Pierce
1 Wipe Away
1 Flusterstorm

SIDEBOARD

1 Spell Pierce
1 Wipe Away
3 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Defense Grid
1 Snap
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Swan Song
1 Spell Snare
1 Annul
1 Rebuild

[Bosaapje]

What would you cut in this list if you want to include the Candles? I guess the Sleight of Hand but what else? I'm just trying to get a bit more knowledge of the deck.

[Charon]

What would you cut in this list if you want to include the Candles? I guess the Sleight of Hand but what else? I'm just trying to get a bit more knowledge of the deck.

Pact.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Played this new list to a mediocre 2-2 at a local event. I hadn't played the deck in forever and made some questionable mulligan decisions and play calls in the two rounds I lost. Beat Reanimator (!) and Bant, lost to Belcher and Elves.

4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
4 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 High Tide
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Snap
2 Turnabout

4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
4 Time Spiral
2 Dig Through Time

1 Pact of Negation
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
8 Island

Sideboard

1 Flusterstorm
1 Brain Freeze
1 Snap
1 Rebuild
1 Blue-Sun's Zenith
1 Turnabout
1 Dig Through Time
3 Krosan Grip
1 Tropical Island
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Defense Grid

The list performed quite fluidly except when I kept bad hands or had to mull into oblivion for FOW against Belcher. I'm likely going to cut the Pact as I'm not sure it's necessary anymore - also I would like another Flusterstorm in the 75. I would also like to work Echoing Truth back into the sideboard, auto-losing to Empty the Warrens is not an option in my meta. The green splash out of the board is for the difficult Miracles matchup as I'm tired of auto-losing to turn 2 Counterbalance.



Against a good ANT player, we are the underdog. We cannot realistically beat a T1 swarm if we don't have force.

AFAIK, I have never lost with this deck to ANT, TES, or any Storm deck (Belcher is another issue altogether due to speed). Carefully play the control game against them and you will win. Merchant Scroll -> Countermagic is pretty good in this matchup. High Tide is an underdog to Griselbrand decks, not Storm decks.

[Jesture]

Played this new list to a mediocre 2-2 at a local event. I hadn't played the deck in forever and made some questionable mulligan decisions and play calls in the two rounds I lost. Beat Reanimator (!) and Bant, lost to Belcher and Elves.

4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
4 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 High Tide
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Snap
2 Turnabout

4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
4 Time Spiral
2 Dig Through Time

1 Pact of Negation
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
8 Island

Sideboard

1 Flusterstorm
1 Brain Freeze
1 Snap
1 Rebuild
1 Blue-Sun's Zenith
1 Turnabout
1 Dig Through Time
3 Krosan Grip
1 Tropical Island
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Defense Grid

The list performed quite fluidly except when I kept bad hands or had to mull into oblivion for FOW against Belcher. I'm likely going to cut the Pact as I'm not sure it's necessary anymore - also I would like another Flusterstorm in the 75. I would also like to work Echoing Truth back into the sideboard, auto-losing to Empty the Warrens is not an option in my meta. The green splash out of the board is for the difficult Miracles matchup as I'm tired of auto-losing to turn 2 Counterbalance.

I'm curious to hear about your questionable mulligan decisions and what matchups they were in. Additionally, how were Krosan Grips in the side? The wary Miracles players floats 3 drop for Counterbalance in anticipation of Wipe Away. Is your plan to just go for the top in response to EoT spins?

Edit: I see it now. Attacking countertop with a permanent answer is very different than EoT bouncing it.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I'm curious to hear about your questionable mulligan decisions and what matchups they were in. Additionally, how were Krosan Grips in the side? The wary Miracles players floats 3 drop for Counterbalance in anticipation of Wipe Away. Is your plan to just go for the top in response to EoT spins?

Edit: I see it now. Attacking countertop with a permanent answer is very different than EoT bouncing it.

Game two against Belcher I kept a hand with Flusterstorm but no FOW (on the draw) and died on turn 1. Should have mulled to Force, no questions asked. Against Elves I kept a hand with lands, untap effects, High Tide, and Brainstorm. I Brainstormed into nothing and died with 2x High Tide, 2x untap effect in my hand. Probably should have mulled into a hand with more business, although I didn't expect the top 14 cards of my deck to have zero draw beyond that one Brainstorm.

I didn't board in Grip because no matchups called for it. It's insurance against Miracles which is otherwise a very bad matchup - you can also bring it in against decks with Chalice and other lock pieces.

[esthoril]

A list worth sharing, isn't it esthoril?

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9035&d=251480&f=LE
Looks like an awesome list :cool: Round 6 was feature match which is recorded on camera.
Doesn't seem to be uploaded yet though, but i'll post here when that is the case.

To fit in Candelabra's I'd cut the probe and sleight of hand to start with.
And probably the brain freeze can go as well to add a 3rd candle.
(with 3 candle, 4 turnabout, 4 spiral main, hitting 60+ mana shouldn't be an issue).

I don't think I would ever go below 7 counters.

[clavio]

Is it just me, or is URW Delver an absolute nightmare matchup? They run so many counterspells, and then they have the audacity to board in Meddling Mage. Also their clock is pretty decent. What's your gameplan against Patriot?

[ScatmanX]

Is it just me, or is URW Delver an absolute nightmare matchup? They run so many counterspells, and then they have the audacity to board in Meddling Mage. Also their clock is pretty decent. What's your gameplan against Patriot?
Avoid them
Other tha that, resolve a defense grid. They'll have few hard countespells to answer it, and then you should only need 1 counter on your combo turn.
Other than that bring in bounce for both getting rid of their clock and meddling mage.
But yeah, avoid them at all costs.

[mulder]

How does this deck fare agains Sneak and Show? I would think Sneak is the favourite because of the high number of counters, cheap win and of course 4 maindeck Emrakuls. How does this deck win agains Emrakul?

[clavio]

Usz

[iGrok]

@Arzar:

I would strongly recommend playing the Tropical Island main. It will open up a sideboard slot, and will almost never hurt you, since if you are playing against a wasteland deck, you can fetch your basics, and worst case scenario brainstorm it back.

I'm currently playing two Volcanic Islands main, and have been wastelanded once - and I used that land to cast the initial high tide, so it didn't even matter.

The sideboard slot is much more important than the .05% risk of wasteland killing you.

[rickyy]

How does this deck fare agains Sneak and Show? I would think Sneak is the favourite because of the high number of counters, cheap win and of course 4 maindeck Emrakuls. How does this deck win agains Emrakul?

Two options:
- You make S&S draw to death with a Blue Sun's Zenith at X=50+. It takes a bit longer to set up than the classic Storm kill, but is totally manageable.
- Some players run a Surgical extraction in SB (so you can Wish for it): You play Brain Freeze with about 25 Storm and when the first Emrakul appears, you Surgical it in answer to the shuffle trigger. Shuffle still occurs, but at least you got rid of the 4 Emrakuls.

More globally about the MU:
The MU is pretty much a counter war. We both play key cards that "You have to counter". They have a lot a counter, but we also have a bunch of them: Usually 6-8 MD + 4 Scrolls to get them. (And most lists also play 2/3 more counters in SB). So High Tide usually ends up being the control deck. The Real problem is of course Sneak Attack as it just laughs at your flusterstorms... (even if Swan Song kind of helps)
There is something really important about S&T: You can drop a land. For High Tide, a free land drop may just as well be a time walk: You can combo one turn earlier. The situation often happened to me: playing High Tide OTP, my opponent casts S&T turn 2. He get an Emrakul with summoning sickness, but on my third turn, I have my 4 Islands and can comfortably combo.

[Jizz]

Hello high tide fellows,

High Tide is slower than the other combo decks (I was wondering why play high tide over show and tell variants for instance ? Because of oblivion ring ? (not played) ). Therefore, we thought that it has to take a control role in this metagame.

How do we get there ? Is the instant or the sorcery version more suited to that purpose ? Do we need a splash ? (B for dread of night/massacre ? - R for Burning wish/Past in flammes ?).
This list (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9013&d=251348&f=LE) packs a maindeck CB top lock.
Capsize + Candelabra is also a very powerful tool that doesn't need Time Spiral to kill. Sensible to the hate postboard, a control deck can still deal with anti artifact Spells (eot Turnabout) or permanents (eot bounce).

So here is a first sketch of our high tide control deck :

9 Island
9 Fetch (miracle ones)

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Top

1 Intuition
2 Dig through Time
3 Cunning wish
4 Scroll

1 Turnabout
2 Candelabra
3 Time Spiral

4 High Tide

3 Counterbalance
1 Jace, the mind sculptor

4 Force of will
3 Flusterstorm



SB :
1 Underground sea
2 Massacre
2 Wipe away
2 Grafdigger 's cage
1 Jace, the mind sculptor
1 Capsize
1 Blue sun's Zenith
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Hurkyl's recall

1 Flusterstorm
1 Brainfreeze (is this really necessary ?)
or
2 Vendilion Clique



Any Suggestions ? :)

EDIT : another route is -1/2 time spiral +1 Candelabra +0/1 preordain/land/repeal. Time spiral becomes a 1-of that can win on the spot, fetchable with dig.

[esthoril]

How does this deck fare agains Sneak and Show? I would think Sneak is the favourite because of the high number of counters, cheap win and of course 4 maindeck Emrakuls. How does this deck win agains Emrakul?

The situation often happened to me: playing High Tide OTP, my opponent casts S&T turn 2. He get an Emrakul with summoning sickness, but on my third turn, I have my 4 Islands and can comfortably combo.
This situation will only arise against very very bad Sneak&Show players that have no clue whatsoever how to play a combo mirror. Sneak&Show is a bad matchup for us. It always has the threat of a fast combo and has A LOT of permission, not in the least red blasts and flusterstorms. When Sneak&Show is omnipresent in your meta, Spiral Tide is not the right deck to play.

[iGrok]

This situation will only arise against very very bad Sneak&Show players that have no clue whatsoever how to play a combo mirror. Sneak&Show is a bad matchup for us. It always has the threat of a fast combo and has A LOT of permission, not in the least red blasts and flusterstorms. When Sneak&Show is omnipresent in your meta, Spiral Tide is not the right deck to play.

Unless you are splashing red, in which case jamming Counterfluxes is amazing. I used to play two (one board one main), though I've cut to just one sideboarded since S&T has fallen in popularity. Flux, Wish for Flux x2 and just watch the color drain from their face. You'll get enough land drops that their pierces don't matter, and then they're just dead.

---

Why would you play Jace?

That build seems like it has too much control, not enough combo. With only 1 Turnabout and 2 Candlesticks, you're going to have a lot of rough spirals where you draw a bunch of countermagic but no additional mana/card draw. You have 11 Counters (including CB), 3 Tops, Jace, and 18 lands, all of which (other than the first top or Jace) do nothing post-spiral. That's more than half your deck, and its worthless after spiral. And then you suggest cutting Spirals? How do you figure that Spiral "wins on the spot"?

To give a corroborating personal anecdote, this evening I was playing tide with 8 counterspells, one of which was pitched to force. I spiraled into 4 lands, 3 counters. Fizzling is a real possibility, and the more we dilute our deck, the more likely it is.

Now don't get me wrong, I like counterbalance - I gave feline the idea in knoxville, and it played out pretty well. But it feels much better coming out of the board, and really wants a main-deck capsize as well as multiple turnabouts to generate enough mana to go infinite and draw deck with Top. Mana is a real constraint before you go infinite in Countertop variants, and sometimes you can't spare the three extra mana to go "Scroll-Wish-Capsize" instead of "Scroll-Capsize". You are even less likely to have the extra mana if you are cutting turnabouts and Candels.

I suggest the following: -1 Jace, -1 Dig, -1 Wish, -1 Force, -1 Island, +1 Candel, +2 Turnabout, +1 Underground Sea, +1 Capsize. I would really like to add the 4th Spiral in, but I'm not quite sure where to slot it in.

---

I also have an issue with the use of Wipe Away in general. There are only three different scenarios that our bounce spells are useful. Against Miracles, against Mother of Runes, and against everything else. Split Second is only useful if the miracles player is bad - good players will float a 3 drop on top to protect against Wish and Wipe Away. Against Mom, Wipe Away is a terrible card anyways - they will almost assuredly have more than one hatebear. And against everything else, they won't have relevant responses. Therefore, a better plan would be to play Capsize only and find other forms of fighting Miracles and Hatebears.



Speaking of decks with Wasteland, can we please agree to stop putting lands in our sideboards? If your opponent is playing Wasteland, don't fetch your dual! If you draw it, brainstorm it away or save it for when you really need it! Sideboard slots are too important to waste on stuff like that.

[TiMeWaLk]

Hello guys,
After 10 months without any tournament, I found time to make one :D
I picked up High Tide and played this:

1 Underground Sea
8 Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

4 Time Spiral
4 High Tide
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Turnabout
4 Brainstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
2 Dig Through Time
1 Pact of Negation
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Swan Song
1 Wipe Away
2 Flusterstorm

SIDEBOARD

3 Thoughtseize
1 Wipe Away
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Defense Grid
1 Snap
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mystic Remora
1 Hydroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pact of Negation

For a long time, I felt that the 3 CMC cards, Meditate and Wish, were being too slow. In addition, the Wish box was taking too much of the side board. I decided to follow the Wishless route that was proposed recently. Since I have very little time to play, I decided to test a black splash at the same time. I know testing 2 things at the same time seems conterproductive...

I had the impression that the deck is getting stronger with these changes in the main deck (not sure about the splash). Unfortunately, I could not test extensively these changes since I played twice against Elves and once against Sylvan plug. I won against the first Elf and lost against the second (2 missplays from my side), and well, lost against plug...

Against Elves I did:
+2 Cage
+2 Seize
+1 Sap
-1 Wipe Away
-1 Pact of Negation
-1 Preordain
-1 Flusterstorm
-1 Dig through Time

I would like to hear what you think about these changes. The idea behind the black splash is that it can help against Miracle and combo match-ups, and since we play only 1 sea we hardly get punished by wasteland. A green splash looks interesting as well with cards like Moment's Peace and Krosan Grip for example.

TW

ps: I am seriously considering cutting the Wipe Away main deck.

[iGrok]

That looks pretty sweet! Similar to my own list (though I'm Ur not Ub).

If you're splashing Black, why not play Massacre out of the board for D&T?

[TiMeWaLk]

Yes, that's exactly what people told me... but half of my cards were in another place, including my Massacre. In addition, I am afraid to fetch Underground Sea to get it wasted, so I am not 100% behind this, even though a test would be neeeded. Anyway, that would be an extremely narrow sideboard slot and I remember D&T being a rather positive match-up.

[iGrok]

Yes, that's exactly what people told me... but half of my cards were in another place, including my Massacre. In addition, I am afraid to fetch Underground Sea to get it wasted, so I am not 100% behind this, even though a test would be neeeded. Anyway, that would be an extremely narrow sideboard slot and I remember D&T being a rather positive match-up.

Then don't fetch it until you need it :). If you lose a land, but they lose a Thalia, you're even. If they lose a Thalia, Mom, and Canonist, you're waaay ahead. Massacre also comes in against Meddling Mage decks.

[iGrok]

Played a 4 round event today, not too much to report but here goes. I was playing 2 volcanics, with a single burning wish main, and a sideboard with 2x pyroclasm, 1 REB, 1 Counterflux, and a shattering spree. I was also short a High Tide (I had pulled one out and forgot to put it back in!). I run Brain Freeze main, and USZ side (with a single cunning wish to get it)

Round 1 I had a bye. Looking around the room, these were the decks:
Fish
Cephalid Breakfast
Oops
Belcher
Reanimator
Show and Tell
Burn
Jund (my friend)

So, I got ready for a very interactive day of magic!

Round 2: Burn
Game 1 I mulled to 5, but I was able to represent miracles while getting burned out. This led to him boarding improperly for game 2.
Game 2 I countered two eidolons, then dug into the combo.
Game 3 was more interesting. he started with a pair of pithing needles (on Candel and Top), I had a hand of countermagic, capsize, and candel, so I let the needles resolve. We traded cards for a couple turns, and he stuck a sulfuric vortex. At the end of his next turn, he had three cards in hand. Its important to note that up to this point I had seen 0 Chain Lightnings or Fireblasts. I was set to combo on my turn, so I cast Capsize on the needle naming candel. In response, he skullcracks me, leaving R open. I am at 7. So, if I Force, I go to 6, then vortex puts me at 4, in fireblast range. If I don't force, then I go to 4, then 2, and I'm dead to bolt or blast. So I force, and it turns out he has blast in hand :(. I think that I made the right play, but sometimes you get punished for that.

Round 3:
Cephalid Breakfast.
Opponent concedes -_-
I borrow ANT from my friend and goldfish while watching him die to Oops.

Round 4:
Belcher
This round made the night totally worth it.
Game 1 (on the draw): Keep FoW, Merchant Scroll, 2 blue cards, candel, 2 lands
T1 FoW
T2 Scroll for FoW.
I play Draw-go for a while, and eventually combo off.
Game 2: I board in two pyroclasm, and board out both wishes. I don't yet realize my mistake.
We play the longest game the belcher player has ever played. Since I only have 3 high tides, it takes a long time to find one - especially since I always need to scroll for counterspells. Multiple times, I have 4 Time Spirals in hand, brainstorm two of them away, and then draw them again over the next few turns. Eventually I just start pitching them to Force of Will to stop his combos. At some point, I realized that I didn't have any access to non-brainfreeze wincons... since I'd boarded out my wishes and didn't bring in USZ...
I end up with a Brainfreeze, turnabout, turnabout, force of will, Time spiral, Snapcaster in hand, while he has been drawing up a hand. He went for empty the warrens, so I did my best Solidarity impression! Turnabout>Turnabout>Force a copy of Empty the Warrens>Brainfreeze. He ended up with 5 cards in his library, so I untapped and cast snapcaster>brainfreeze. One of the more memorable games in a while.


Overall, I didn't learn much, but I had some fun games, and everyone likes tournament reports :)

[clavio]

Unless you are splashing red, in which case jamming Counterfluxes is amazing. I used to play two (one board one main), though I've cut to just one sideboarded since S&T has fallen in popularity. Flux, Wish for Flux x2 and just watch the color drain from their face. You'll get enough land drops that their pierces don't matter, and then they're just dead.




I have trouble believing this. If their hand is juiced enough to try and win, it has to be good enough to stop you from winning.

[iGrok]

I have trouble believing this. If their hand is juiced enough to try and win, it has to be good enough to stop you from winning.

A good enough hand for S&T to try to win against you is something like combo+pierce+REB/Flusterstorm, or 3 counters if they're really nervous. Counterflux can't even be misdirected if you pay 1 extra, and stops all copies of their flusterstorm when you try to combo yourself.

What it comes down to is that they need to find a copy of show or sneak, and every time you stop one of those, they need to spend time and resources to find another enabler. In the meantime, you can just make land drops until you can just pay for all of their taxing counters. Once you've resolved high tide, only their copies of FoW and Flusterstorm actually matter, and you have flux to stop their flusters.

I don't know why you think they can stop us when we can just pay for most of their counters. Just be the control deck.

[clavio]

Just be the control deck, hit 8+ lands is pretty far from "they're just dead". Also they play Dig Through Time and sometimes Jace so it's not like they're a fish out of water in the long game.

[iGrok]

It is "they're just dead" though, from experience. You are going to be able to go off before they can assemble a third or fourth attempt.

Obviously you can draw every single land you play, for example - sure, its possible to lose playing flux. Its extremely unlikely to lose if you are playing counterfluxes, does that sound better to you?

[Edit:] The thing is that once you've stuffed them once, they have to decide if they want to cantrips for counters or for action. If they dig action, you can combo, if they dig counters, you have time. If they have a full hand, you fight on their turn to turnabout their lands, and then they either have fewer counters or can't cast them. If they have a small hand, you can pay for the taxing counters or counter if its FoW.

If things get bad, you can spiral with nothing, and either go off or hold up a new batch of counter spells.

[clavio]

2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
9 Island

3 High Tide
2 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral
4 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
2 Izzet Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
3 Cunning Wish
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Swan Song
1 Intuition
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
SB: 1 High Tide
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 Swan Song
SB: 1 Intuition
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 3 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Brain Freeze

Splashing red for just two cards is probably too cute, but I really like the versatility of Izzet Charm esp with DNT on the rise. I tried to play DTT over Intuition maindeck, but it didn't stick.

[iGrok]

If you're splashing red and need answers to hatebears, Pyroclasm out of the side is a beating. Has utility against Elves and Empty the Warrens too

[iGrok]

[Decklist]

Splashing red for just two cards is probably too cute, but I really like the versatility of Izzet Charm esp with DNT on the rise. I tried to play DTT over Intuition maindeck, but it didn't stick.

I figure I may as well post my list, since we're talking about Ur variants:

8 Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 High Tide
3 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Intuition
1 Dig Through Time
1 Cunning Wish
1 Burning Wish
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Capsize
1 Brain Freeze
3 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Swan Song
SB: 1 Capsize
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Counterflux
SB: 1 Teferi's Realm
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Devastation Tide
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Enter the Infinite
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Force of Will


Why are you starting with a High Tide sideboarded? Usually, the difficult card to get is Time Spiral (4 Spirals, 1 Intuition, 4 Wish for Intuition for Spiral), compared to High Tide (4 Tide, 4 Merchant Scroll, 1 Intuition). Post-board I can understand if you expect Surgicals..

Comparing the two lists, we're playing many similar things. We have different Counterspell suites (probably due to different metas), and you're on the Wish plan while I prefer maindeck action.

Our sideboards are completely different, but that's to be expected.

[clavio]

Went 3-1-1 at a 1k today, good enough for 9th place -_-

I got wastelanded once and it was total bullshit. Going back to mono u, -2 Izzet +2 Top.


SB: 1 Teferi's Realm

whoah

[iGrok]

Went 3-1-1 at a 1k today, good enough for 9th place -_-

I got wastelanded once and it was total bullshit. Going back to mono u, -2 Izzet +2 Top.

What was the scenario in which you got wastelanded? Was it something you could play around?

Also, yeah Teferi's Realm has been doing work for me against Hatebears and Stax lol.

[iGrok]

Went 3-0 tonight, same main as above. Mixed up my sideboard quite a bit though:

Out: Capsize, Shattering Spree, Devastation Tide, Pithing Needle, Blood Moon, Blood Moon, Force of Will
Stays: Flusterstorm, Turnabout, Counterflux, Teferi's Realm, Pyroclasm, Pyroclasm, Blue Sun's Zenith
In: Surgical Extraction, Surgical Extraction, Flusterstorm, Meltdown, EMRAKUL, EMRAKUL, EMRAKUL!

I expected Sneak & Show (several local players run it) and I was hoping to capitalize, and also I saw the Hypergenesis vs Elves video that was posted to reddit a couple days ago and thought, why not? :laugh:

#################
##Round 1: Death & Taxes
Game 1, he mulls to 5, keeps a hand with Mom and Port, no threats or hate for several turns. I force his first hatebear and then go off.

In: Pyroclasm, Pyroclasm, Teferi's Realm
Out: Burning Wish, Flusterstorm, Swan Song

Game 2, he goes Mom>Port>Vial>Stoneforge(SoFaI)>Serra Avenger>SoFaI equip. I have one turn to go off, I know he has a hatebear in hand and a vial on two. I have 3 Islands and a Volcanic, with Force of Will, Turnabout, Turnabout, Pyroclasm, High Tide, Merchant Scroll, Time Spiral. He has 8 damage on board, one of which is the Mystic, and I'm at 8 life. I Force the Thalia dropping to 7 life, then turnabout him naming Artifacts, he vials in Canonist.
I think what I should have done is turnabout in response to Thalia, then pyroclasm the next turn, and have 1 more turn to go off while at 1. As is, I lose Game 2.

Game 3, we each mull to 6. He is on the Single Mom plan again, but sticks a Thalia before I'm able to find a third land. He then lands Revoker and something else. I do eventually find lands 3 & 4, and cast Teferi's Realm. After a brief discussion about what the card does (and looking up the oracle text), I pass. He names enchantments and punches me in the face, on his turn I name creatures and Intuition for Spirals. He then names Artifacts when I have none on board, which phases out his own Revoker - one of the benefits to playing odd cards is that your opponents are more likely to screw up! On his turn I name creatures again and combo off.

After the round, I heard a couple people talking about Realm - it hoses D&T/Stax soooo hard.

1-0
#############
##Round 2: Boggles
Not much to say here, he was newer to Legacy and was playing a deck that couldn't win before turn 4 even if I had no disruption. Also didn't help that he flooded out completely. I won 2-0.

2-0
############
##Round 3: Infect
Infect is the bane of my existence. It feels impossible to win against. This particular player was running pierces instead of forces, but 4 daze/4pierce with 4 probes feels pretty strong against me.

Game 1, I was able to steal when he made some incredibly strange crop rotations. He crop rotated his pendelhaven for a Bayou? and then tapped that to rotate his inkmoth into a tropical island, all with just a glistener elf on board. Since he effectively time-walked himself, I had a little more time. My first Spiral fizzled (5 land, high tide, snapcaster), but I was able to fetch, top, find Merchant scroll for Tide>Snapcaster>Tide>Scroll>Intuition>Spirals the next turn.

In: Pyroclasm, Pyroclasm, Flusterstorm, Flusterstorm
Out: Burning Wish, Counterspell, Candelabra, DTT

Game 2, he went Elf>Agent. I had turn 2 pyroclasm, he had the daze, and I died soon after.

Game 3, I was at 9 infect on turn 5, had hit all of my land drops. I play High Tide, he pierces, I fluster, he pierces. He doesn't announce a target for his pierce, just puts it on top of the stack. I have to ask what the target is, and he realizes his mistake and targets the tide. :/ At a 4 round tournament like this, it's fine, but how should I handle that situation at larger tournaments?
Anyways, I die the next turn.

2-1
#############
##Round 4: Omnitell
Game 1, I lead Tarn>Island>Top, representing Miracles (somehow, even people who have played me before don't remember that I play tide), and I manage to make him Force it. Turn 2 I scroll for Flusterstorm. Turn 3 I find another Top and use it keep barely enough countermagic and find my combo. Have to use Cunning Wish to find USZ for the win.

In: Flusterstorm, Flusterstorm, Counterflux, Blue Sun's, EMRAKUL EMRAKUL EMRAKUL
Out: Counterspell, DTT, Burning Wish, Cunning Wish, Brain Freeze, Turnabout, Candelabra

Game 2, my opening 7 is 4 lands, Tide, Spiral, Candel. I weep internally and mulligan, and get incredibly rewarded with Flusterstorm, Top, Force of Will, EMRAKUL, 2 Land. At this point, I realize that Emrakul's are horrible because they want to Show in Omniscience, which lets them timewalk with Emrakul. >_>
So I decide I will not even try to combo. If I counter Show and Tell 4 times, I win. I'm able to counter the first, then we do a couple cantrip-go turns (I'm topping not cantripping, but I keep hitting fetches so it's basically the same thing - and somehow I end up with a second Emrakul >_>). I have 4 lands, he says, "Well, I feel like I'm just not being aggressive enough, time to just go for it!" and Intuitions on my end step. I top in response, fetch, top again, and let it resolve. He gets his remaining 3 Show and Tells, puts one in his hand, untaps, draws, and casts Show and Tell, with countermagic backup. I tap Top to draw, and get Counterflux for that sweet top-deck feeling, and he laughs out loud and concedes. Sweet Tech is Sweet.

3-1
#############

So 3-1 overall is ok, though really it was 2-1 (Boggles player was just out of his league). I went 1-1 against what I think are my hardest two matchups, and Show & Tell decks aren't easy either. Teferi's realm makes D&T an absolute joke when I can find it though, even more than the Pyroclasms. I'm absolutely in love with it, and its starting to get some respect locally, which is pretty sweet. I'm considering going up to two copies. If you're having D&T or Stax problems, pick up at least one and try it out. Remember if you're using it against Stax, hold your candlesticks in hand until your combo turn.

[kombatkiwi]

Game 3, I was at 9 infect on turn 5, had hit all of my land drops. I play High Tide, he pierces, I fluster, he pierces. He doesn't announce a target for his pierce, just puts it on top of the stack. I have to ask what the target is, and he realizes his mistake and targets the tide. :/ At a 4 round tournament like this, it's fine, but how should I handle that situation at larger tournaments?


From the official Magic Tournament Rules document, in the Tournament Shortcuts section:


A player who casts a spell or activates an ability that targets an object on the stack is assumed to target the legal target closest to the top of the stack unless the player specifies otherwise.

Assuming you cast Flusterstorm and they immediately snap off a Pierce or whatever without saying anything, you can just let the Pierce resolve (countering your original Flusterstorm), let the storm trigger resolve, and keep playing.

It's probably a good idea to calmly verbally affirm this is what is happening - if you see their Pierce hit the table, and you instantly move your Flusterstorm to the graveyard without giving them the opportunity to announce a target, then the resulting judge call is not likely to go in your favour.

[iGrok]

Gotcha, thanks! That's good to know.

[feline]

One of the GP Trial winners was a Spiral Tide deck:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16749&iddeck=125473

Instants [26]
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Cunning Wish
1 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
1 Spell Pierce
2 Dig Through Time
3 Flusterstorm
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Turnabout
Sorceries [16]
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Time Spiral
Lands [18]
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
10 Island
-sideboard-
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Wasteland
1 Annul
1 Spell Snare
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Snap
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Brain Freeze
1 Wipe Away
1 Ratchet Bomb

[iGrok]

Hmm, I wonder if no Candles was by choice or budget? Meditate's not a card that's seen much recent play either.

[iGrok]

Well guys, after playing with Teferi's Realm for a couple months, I'm happy to report that I have lost 0 games in which it has resolved. It's a complete FU to Hatebears and MUD. I'm moving up to two copies in the board, it really is just that powerful. Before, these matchups were incredibly difficult, but Realm lets you completely ignore all permanent-based hate.

With that being the case, I'm going back to Mono-blue. I was playing red for Pyroclasm, Meltdown, Burning Wish (to fetch either of those Game 1, or an Enter the Infinite), Red Blast, and Counterflux. With Realm, I no longer need Pyroclasm or Meltdown, which means I don't need Burning Wish, and REB/Counterflux are not powerful enough to merit a splash by themselves.

I do still believe that, if there is something worth splashing for, High Tide can handle it on 8 basics, 2 duals, 8 fetches. But at this time I don't know of anything worth splashing.

[iGrok]

The last two tournaments, I've played against the following:

Jund, MUD, MUD, Fish (That was a rough night)
Omnitell, Omnitell, No-Blue Mentor, Lands

I'm tilted enough against miracles that I decided to put my candels to good use and build 12 Post. My Show & Tells came in, and kind of on a whim I decided that Show & Tell + Emrakul was a good transformative sideboard plan. I had already gone down to a single Cunning Wish (and the GP Trial winner's list is also), and I figured I could cut to five wish targets (well, four - I run two Surgicals, and two Teferi's Realm). My theory is that the matchups that we often lose Game 1 to are weak to Show & Tell, and having Emrakuls is good when your opponents are casting Show & Tell.

Here's my current list:

4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Turnabout
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
1 Swan Song
1 Counterspell
1 Intuition
1 Cunning Wish
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Capsize
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Dig Through Time
10 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard
1 Turnabout
1 Capsize
1 Dig Through Time
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Teferi's Realm
4 Show and Tell
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre


The Show and Tell package is really powerful. I usually board like so:
+(4 S&T, 3 Emrakul, 1 Ulamog), -(4 Merchant Scroll, 1 Wish, 1 USZ, 1 Candelabra, 1 wildcard)
The plan is to win by S&T or Spiraling into hardcast Eldrazi. Cutting the scrolls might be a mistake, but they've felt like the right call so far. There are some matchups in which I leave USZ in, but I'm still figuring that out.
####

Ian Marra on Jund: Game 1 on the play, I had the nuts - Countermagic for his discard, win turn 4. Its a pretty bad matchup, actually I've never won a match off of Ian because his list slants heavily towards discard and he boards in 3 red blasts. I board in the Show and Tell package. Game 2 I have turn 3 Emrakul and the match is over.

Andrew on MUD: Game 1 he has Turn 2 Lodestone Golem + Trinisphere. I make land drops, get to 5 lands with a candle and a Top and am facing lethal. Here is my play sequence:
Tap 3 lands for High Tide, Tap 2 lands for Candelabra to untap 4 lands, make 8 mana to cast Time Spiral with 1 mana floating. Spiral into High Tide, Snapcaster, Timespiral, Turnabout, Capsize. Tap 1 land, pay 3 for High Tide, tap 2 lands to make 6, pay 3 for snapcaster, pay 3 for high tide, tap 2 lands for 8, cast turnabout for 5 to untap lands, tap 5 lands for 20, Pay 7 to capsize candelabra, pay 3 for candelabra, pay 5 for activate candelabra, establish the capsize-candelabra loop, establish capsize-top loop, USZ him for 100.
Board into S&T, +2x Teferi's Realm
Turn 1 Candelabra, Turn 2 High Tide, Candle, Show and Tell for the game. Its like having an "Oops, I win" button, and the unexpectedness of it is really in my favor.

BJ on Welder-Painter MUD: I was 3-0 matchwise against him, but every match had gone 2-1. This time he beat me with a turn 2 Lodestone Golem + Sundertitan game 1, and another extremely powerful draw game 2. Never stood a chance.

??? on Fish. Game 1 went as expected, he tempo'd me out. Board into S&T. Game 2, bait a counterspell with a High Tide, then cast S&T. He topdecks Phantasmal Image, but that doesn't work the way he wants it to and I get the win. Game 3, I elected not to counterspell a TNN on turn 4, as I was building countermagic for the S&T fight, but this ended up costing me the game, as the clock turns out to be too fast.

Overall night 1, 2-2. Not great, but those matchups... the struggle is real!

####
Night 2

Zachary on Omnitell: I know he plays the old 4 S&T 4 Dream Halls variant, and I settle in for a long control game. I have the Wish in hand, and when he Intuitions for Show & Tells I see my chance, wish for Surgical and strip them. His remaining hand is DH, DH, Enter the Infinite. Yikes. I counter the first DH, the second one sticks but he doesn't have the protection or blue cards to cast ETI yet. I continue to make land drops, though I am forced to swan song him, so now he is clocking me. I get to 8 lands and set up a turn of turnabout on his end step, untap, capsize DH, snapcaster>Surgical the DH I countered. I continued to let the swan attack me until I have protection for Capsize, then capsize the bird and start attacking with Snapcaster. We eventually get to Him at 3 life, I'm at 2. Then we get to a very odd sequence of plays:
My end step, he casts Cunning Wish. I think for a while, and Force it, going to 1. In response, he casts Swan Song on his on Cunning Wish. I still have Capsize up, so I allow that to resolve. He gets a token, then tries to cast Swan Song #2 targeting the same Cunning Wish. I explained that the wish was already countered, he got a little upset, I called a judge, and I even allowed him to rewind the stack so that he held priority on the first swan song (its regular REL, whatever). There isn't a way he could get the 2 swans required to kill me, and he eventually went full-tilt and conceded because I was "rules-lawyering". He then pulled out a timer and timed our sideboarding...
On to game 2, I board in the Eldrazi but not the S&Ts, as well as Surgicals, turnabout, and capsize. He resolves DH but can't capitalize, I attempt to Spiral with DH in play, I make several misplays but spiral into countermagic, Emrakul, capsize. I capsize his DH and pass, counter the DH, allow his S&T to resolve, put in Emrakul, and enjoy the look of absolute confusion. So I won this match 2-0 by attacking with creatures.

$PLAYER on Omnitell. This is the contemporary Omnitell list (no boarded pyromancers though). Again, I'm on the hard control route. Game 1, we fight for a long time, he takes significant damage from his Tombs, eventually find his Boseiju, but I'm able to establish Capsize lock on it. I eventually stick a Snapcaster and attack four times for lethal. Yeah, he did 13 damage to himself that game. I've now won three games tonight by attacking with creatures. I'm the worst High Tide player ever. I board in the same package as above.
Game 2 I draw this hand: Surgical x2, Brainstorm x2, Ponder, Swan Song, Flusterstorm. I'm 55% to draw a land by turn 2, 96% to draw one by turn 3, and that hand can do a lot on a single land, and two things on no lands. I keep. He plays T1 Ponder and shuffles. I want to screw him, so I surgical, he Forces, I surgical the Force. Now if I can get a single land, I definitely buy time to win, because his only countermagic left in the deck is 2x Swan Song, 1x Pact of Negation. I don't hit a land in the next 5 turns and die. I do think that keeping that hand was the mathematically correct thing to do, but I sure did feel stupid afterwards.
Game 3 I surgical the S&T, and then he plays DH and kills me. He boarded again after game 2 and brought in a singleton DH as a response to my double surgical Game 2. Smart play on his part, didn't end well for me.

$Player on No-blue Mentor. This is a Mentor/pyromancer/Deathrite/Bob list with Tops, Sylvan Library, Liliana, punishing fire, STP, Decay, and discard. Its a pretty interesting deck, it can go very fast with decent card draw and disruption. I'm able to use Top to float my combo away from his discard game 1, and get there. I board into S&T package with an additional Turnabout for its Timewalking potential, and cut Capsize. Turn three win button.

Carter on Lands (the blue version). My opening hand is a wall of countermagic, not great vs lands, but doable. He also has a slow hand, and we play draw-go for several turns. Eventually he starts to Punishing Fire me. I have Wish in hand, but I want to surgical Life from the Loam to seal the game, so I ignore the fires and just sculpt my hand and make land drops. I do eventually surgical the Loam, and then I'm able to combo before he casts 19 punishing fires. Our game 1 took 40 minutes.
Board into Show&Tell, Game 2 hit it turn 3, and that's the ballgame.

####

I end up 3-1 on the night, 7-2 game-wise. The Show and Tell board plan has been very effective, although I will say that it is not as satisfying as comboing off properly. It also screws up our opponents' board plans - postboard I'm often ok with a Chalice on 1, and Meddling Mage/Cabal Therapy is always great. We have much more and better permission than the Omnitell decks, though we don't quite have their redundancy, Time Spiral does a really good DTT impression. Really, it comes down to our opponents having a mental image of High Tide that is factually incorrect post-board. Even my opponents who know what's happening don't play around it properly.

As always, I'd love to hear y'all's comments and feedback!

[Ogh!]

Thank you very much for the great report!



Game 2 I draw this hand: Surgical x2, Brainstorm x2, Ponder, Swan Song, Flusterstorm. I'm 55% to draw a land by turn 2, 96% to draw one by turn 3, and that hand can do a lot on a single land, and two things on no lands. I keep. [...] I do think that keeping that hand was the mathematically correct thing to do, but I sure did feel stupid afterwards.

I just wanted to let you know that your probabilities are a bit off here (wrong formula?). Your chances for having drawn at least 1 land are

34% by turn 1,
57% by turn 2,
72% by turn 3 and
89% by turn 5.

[iGrok]

Yeah, you're right, I was doing the math at 4am so I made a few errors haha. I still think those percentages are keepable, but its certainly tenuous. Mostly because I had won game 1, so if I lose the gamble I've still got a good shot at taking the match.

[iGrok]

I went to GP Vegas this past weekend. I didn't actually get to play much magic, but there were a couple really cool highlights I wanted to share!

On Friday, I borrowed a friend's Modern Storm deck. It's actually quite similar to High Tide, and it was fun to show him how to really go off with it (https://twitter.com/AlecGbot/status/604470254937309184). I ended up drawing the entire deck to end with 244 Red mana, a single blue, and killed him with the lone Lightning Bolt (and four active Pyromancer's Ascensions).

This got me in the mood to goldfish for a High Tide High Score. When I go for a high score, the rules are: "You cannot return a Candelabra of Tawnos to your hand. Your score is how many cards your opponent must draw off of your final Blue Sun's Zenith."

During the one game I went for it on Saturday, I wasn't actually able to combo until turn 5, and I ended up with X=2983 on five lands. That's a really huge number, but I realized that I had missed a significant amount of mana, and 5 lands wasn't a fair start. Still, it was pretty impressive to me, and to Feline (who I saw a couple times at the event). I then got to pilot a Dredge EDH deck (https://twitter.com/JoshLeeKwai/status/604831240571600896) with @JoshLeeKwai and continue to just have fun comboing off, so I stayed in that High Score mood for the rest of the weekend.

During the Sunday Morning Legacy event, I was matched up against a UW Stoneblade deck. I combo'd game 1, and game 2 committed a massive punt by casting Show and Tell > Emrakul into an on-board karakas. Not my wisest moment. We went to game 3, and I unboarded except for Surgicals and a single Emrakul and Ulamog. It was a massive grindfest. I ended up with 8 lands in play before I could attempt to combo off, and I still ended up really tight on mana. I could not find a merchant scroll, USZ, Intuition, or Top, so although I had a Capsize-Candelabra loop I was reduced to cantripping for answers. Eventually I managed to find an Emrakul and Ulamog, bounce all of his permanents, and pass. At this point we're the last game going on (it was a really, really long cantrip chain - none of the listed cards through two spirals and a DTT), and when I pass my opponent just looks at me, and then reminds me that I announced my Emrakul extra turn trigger, so it's my turn again, and I laughingly get the victory. I felt a little silly, but I'm still not used to winning with creatures!

Finally, Sunday night I was at the HMSVU Compound playing for fun against a RG Post deck, while a person who does not play Legacy spectated. On my turn 4, I'm at 10 life, with 9 damage / 8 mana on board. I figure I have to go for it (I expect Banefire or Ugin), and I ask my opponent if I can go nuts to show off a bit for the new guy, and as with most SVU members he's all for going nuts. I started babbling numbers like I'm some sort of future-retro calculating robot while my buddies try to make me laugh and lose concentration. I have no idea what my exact sequence of plays was, but it goes something like this:

Have 3 Lands, Candelabra on board.
Play Land
Play 2 High Tides
Tide Count: 2
Play Turnabout
Cunning Wish for Turnabout
Play Turnabout
Spiral #1
Play High Tide
Tide Count: 3
USZ without counting my library, draw library exactly (that was a close one!)
Play 3x High Tide
Tide Count: 6
Play 2x Candelabra
Tap Lands and Candels properly
Cast 4x Turnabout, tapping and untapping lands/candels appropriately
Spiral #2
Have USZ in hand, draw library
Cast 4x High Tide
Tide Count: 10
Cast 4x Turnabout, tapping lands/candels appropriately
Spiral #3
Have Scroll in hand, get USZ
USZ for library
Cast 4x High Tide
Tide Count: 14
Cast 4x Turnabout, tapping lands/candels appropriately
Spiral #4
Have tide and a Ponder, counters and lands
Ponder into shuffle
Topdeck Merchant Scroll
Scroll for USZ
USZ for library
Cast 4x High Tide
Tide Count: 18
Cast Snapcaster Mage, target High Tide
Capsize Snapcaster Mage
Repeat for the other 3 High Tides
Cast 4x High Tide
Tide Count: 22
Cast 4x Turnabout, tapping lands/candels appropriately
Cast Snapcaster Mage, target Turnabout
Capsize Snapcaster Mage
Repeat for the other 3 Turnabouts
Cast 4x Turnabout, tapping lands/candels appropriately.
Cast Sensei's Top
Tap Top to draw USZ
Cast USZ

"Please draw Four Thousand Seventy-Nine cards."

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Darkenslight]

I went to GP Vegas this past weekend. I didn't actually get to play much magic, but there were a couple really cool highlights I wanted to share!

On Friday, I borrowed a friend's Modern Storm deck. It's actually quite similar to High Tide, and it was fun to show him how to really go off with it (https://twitter.com/AlecGbot/status/604470254937309184). I ended up drawing the entire deck to end with 244 Red mana, a single blue, and killed him with the lone Lightning Bolt (and four active Pyromancer's Ascensions).

This got me in the mood to goldfish for a High Tide High Score. When I go for a high score, the rules are: "You cannot return a Candelabra of Tawnos to your hand. Your score is how many cards your opponent must draw off of your final Blue Sun's Zenith."

During the one game I went for it on Saturday, I wasn't actually able to combo until turn 5, and I ended up with X=2983 on five lands. That's a really huge number, but I realized that I had missed a significant amount of mana, and 5 lands wasn't a fair start. Still, it was pretty impressive to me, and to Feline (who I saw a couple times at the event). I then got to pilot a Dredge EDH deck (https://twitter.com/JoshLeeKwai/status/604831240571600896) with @JoshLeeKwai and continue to just have fun comboing off, so I stayed in that High Score mood for the rest of the weekend.

During the Sunday Morning Legacy event, I was matched up against a UW Stoneblade deck. I combo'd game 1, and game 2 committed a massive punt by casting Show and Tell > Emrakul into an on-board karakas. Not my wisest moment. We went to game 3, and I unboarded except for Surgicals and a single Emrakul and Ulamog. It was a massive grindfest. I ended up with 8 lands in play before I could attempt to combo off, and I still ended up really tight on mana. I could not find a merchant scroll, USZ, Intuition, or Top, so although I had a Capsize-Candelabra loop I was reduced to cantripping for answers. Eventually I managed to find an Emrakul and Ulamog, bounce all of his permanents, and pass. At this point we're the last game going on (it was a really, really long cantrip chain - none of the listed cards through two spirals and a DTT), and when I pass my opponent just looks at me, and then reminds me that I announced my Emrakul extra turn trigger, so it's my turn again, and I laughingly get the victory. I felt a little silly, but I'm still not used to winning with creatures!

Finally, Sunday night I was at the HMSVU Compound playing for fun against a RG Post deck, while a person who does not play Legacy spectated. On my turn 4, I'm at 10 life, with 9 damage / 8 mana on board. I figure I have to go for it (I expect Banefire or Ugin), and I ask my opponent if I can go nuts to show off a bit for the new guy, and as with most SVU members he's all for going nuts. I started babbling numbers like I'm some sort of future-retro calculating robot while my buddies try to make me laugh and lose concentration. I have no idea what my exact sequence of plays was, but it goes something like this:

Have 3 Lands, Candelabra on board.
Play Land
Play 2 High Tides
Tide Count: 2
Play Turnabout
Cunning Wish for Turnabout
Play Turnabout
Spiral #1
Play High Tide
Tide Count: 3
USZ without counting my library, draw library exactly (that was a close one!)
Play 3x High Tide
Tide Count: 6
Play 2x Candelabra
Tap Lands and Candels properly
Cast 4x Turnabout, tapping and untapping lands/candels appropriately
Spiral #2
Have USZ in hand, draw library
Cast 4x High Tide
Tide Count: 10
Cast 4x Turnabout, tapping lands/candels appropriately
Spiral #3
Have Scroll in hand, get USZ
USZ for library
Cast 4x High Tide
Tide Count: 14
Cast 4x Turnabout, tapping lands/candels appropriately
Spiral #4
Have tide and a Ponder, counters and lands
Ponder into shuffle
Topdeck Merchant Scroll
Scroll for USZ
USZ for library
Cast 4x High Tide
Tide Count: 18
Cast Snapcaster Mage, target High Tide
Capsize Snapcaster Mage
Repeat for the other 3 High Tides
Cast 4x High Tide
Tide Count: 22
Cast 4x Turnabout, tapping lands/candels appropriately
Cast Snapcaster Mage, target Turnabout
Capsize Snapcaster Mage
Repeat for the other 3 Turnabouts
Cast 4x Turnabout, tapping lands/candels appropriately.
Cast Sensei's Top
Tap Top to draw USZ
Cast USZ

"Please draw Four Thousand Seventy-Nine cards."

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


https://media.giphy.com/media/b9aScKLxdv0Y0/giphy.gif

That was beautiful.

[Dyllyn]

Hi everyone! While travelling around in Tokyo, I went to Akihabara's radio kaikan magic shops. There was an enormous wall of beta duals and like 3 black lotuses on display along with more copies of various power 9 cards. Anyway the card that got me thinking was a candelabra of tawnos. Im interested in making high tide but I won't be able to test the non-candle version online for a week. So here's my question to yall more experienced with the deck:

Is there any merit to practising irl with candleless high tide? I'm well aware of the candle vs no candle arguments, I just want everyone's thoughts on if I'm handicapping myself playing a non traditional version of HT. Or maybe I should build solidarity instead?

[iGrok]

What I did was proxy up candel tide and goldfish it for a month. Candels are both expensive and hard to move, so I wouldn't invest in them until you are sure you enjoy the deck.

Personally, I would not recommend playing candel-less spiral tide. As for Solidarity, it is a very different playstyle. Again, I would recommend proxying the deck and playing it to see which you enjoy more.

[Zombie]

"Please draw Four Thousand Seventy-Nine cards."

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The jealousy when modern Elves builds cap at 1918 in one turn with untap everything, 4 DRS activations, 2 hardcast Hoofs. ;_;

[iGrok]

The jealousy when modern Elves builds cap at 1918 in one turn with untap everything, 4 DRS activations, 2 hardcast Hoofs. ;_;

Hahaha, elves is a sweet deck too though.

Every once and a while I start calculating High Tide's theoretical maximum (4 lands, no bouncing candels), but I always lose count around the third spiral since I'm just doing it in my head. Maybe I'll sit down with actual cards and figure it out this weekend.

[Quecks]

Consideribg the newly revealed: days undoing. Do you think it deserves maybe a sideboard slot or two? I for once feel like it would do great fighting against discard and maybe even in other not yet explored scenarios. I was thinking about quicken+days for solidarity too... Just my initial thoughts though.

[iGrok]

If you have an extremely discard-heavy local meta, I could see running one or two of these. They really don't fit our plan though, since we absolutely can't use them when we're comboing off.

As far as Solidarity goes, if Solidarity was already running Quicken, this would be a no-brainer. I don't play solidarity myself, so I can't really say how often this would work in the deck.

[iGrok]

Thursday Tournament Report! Not as in-depth as I usually do, pretty exhausted. I'm going to try to note high-impact cards from now on. I'll also only note my combo lines if they seem interesting, most people here should know how to play through a Spiral already.

Round 1: Joshua on Rabblemaster Jund
Game 1, he had a lot of pressure but no discard aside from a Thoughtseize, which I was able to Brainstorm around and combo turn 5.

I know that he knows about my S&T board plan, so I shuffle my 15 card SB in and then take S&T back out. Also, he has Liliana and I remember him playing an Edict SB.

He comes out with some insane amount of pressure, again very little discard, and I'm forced to go off T4 after missing a land drop. To make things worse, he decays my candelabra. I was very close to fizzling, I drew at least 5 lands on each Spiral, and I had to spiral 3 times before finally drawing a scroll for a lethal USZ. On the third spiral, I draw 3 land, FoW, Candelabra, Surgical, Brainstorm. I cast the Candelabra, Force it, Surgical my own force to thin the deck before brainstorming, and I'm able to find a Scroll with 21 mana. USZ for 11, get the turnabout and another scroll for the win.


Round 2: ??? on Grixis Delver
Seems like people have finally realized that I'm the High Tide player locally (after multiple years). I finally got T1 "Cabal Therapy naming High Tide"-ed. I brainstormed away my 2x FoW before the therapy, but I had TS in hand with a merchant scroll. He drops the Delver and starts swinging, but I'm still alive if I have 1 life and I manage to combo off.

Boarded into Show & Tell, despite the Liliana. When I'm up a game, I'll usually go for the S&T despite the risk because I can "afford" the game loss, and its worth the risk. I do leave in most of the HT combo, cutting 2/3 Turnabouts, Candelabras, Cunning Wish and USZ. This lets me Spiral into hardcast Emrakul if he sticks a Liliana. I also think Grixis Delver plays fewer Lilianas than Jund, so I feel more comfortable here than in the previous game.

I kept a 1-lander with 2x ponder, S&t, HT, TS, FoW. Ponder into Land, Brainstorm, FoW, take BS. FoW Hymn pitch HT. Ponder into Land, FoW, Brainstorm, Take FoW. FoW Hymn #2 pitch BS. Draw BS, BS into Land, Counterspell, Emrakul, putback Emrakul TS. Counterspell Thoughtseize. Draw Emrakul, S&T, gg.


Round 3: Josh on Zoo
Game 1: I've seen him playing earlier today, and I know he's playing Wildcats and Kird Apes, so I'm surprised by Wooded Foothills, Pass. Then he drops the maindeck turn-2 Gaddock Teeg, vs my hand of Dig, Spiral, 2x Turnabout. I start desparately looking for the Capsize or Cunning Wish, and he drops a pair of Qasali Pridemages. I find Cunning Wish in the nick of time, wish for the Capsize, get it off and combo.

Board into S&T, I'm only afraid of Karakas, and like I said before, I'll take the gamble.

He has a threat-heavy hand, but I T1 Top into T3 S&T, and he doesn't rip the karakas. If it had been T4, he had a Knight of the Reliquary to find it, so nice timing on my part.


Round 4: Stephen on Miracles
We both wanted to split, so we did. Super happy not to have to play against him!

So, 3-0-1 on the night. Went very well! I'm still working on putting together 12-post to punish the people who metagame against me, I picked up a Karn, Ugin, Kozilek, and two Explorations today. Looking forward to beating Miracles players for a change!

Impact Cards: Show & Tell/Emrakul. If you can afford it, try it out of the board. Its pretty disgusting, especially if you have locals who know you play High Tide by now. Make sure you get into the habit of shuffling your whole SB into your deck between each game.

[feline]

A jumbled mess of a High Tide players thoughts:

I am brainstorming again. Last time I considered a change like this, it was adding Counterbalance to the sideboard. This time, I am looking at embracing Dig through Time (I have been inactive since about February, & before that I tried Reset Tide for a few events, that's why I'm looking at this so late), however, if I do a Dig through Time focus, I will have to emphasize more on spells to help with delve, and less on permanents. To help fuel Delve, Fetchlands will have to go up, minimum 8, possibly 9-10. Most the Omnitell decks have 32-33 spells that go to the graveyard in their 60 (Cunning Wish doesn't count, neither do any permanents.) High Tide however, cannot count Time Spiral either, and it has more permanents in that of Sensei's Divining Top & Candelabra of tawnos if you're running them. Which leads me to keep coming back to this:

Can I still keep the Counterbalance / Top package, and add Dig through Time to the maindeck, having enough spells, be it a minimum 32 or so that go to the graveyard.

If I cannot do that, it would be because I'd have to cut some number of Sensei's Divining Tops, or even all of them and really emphasize spells going to the graveyard. If that's the case, Candelabra of Tawnos would want to be more Turnabout instead. This is a huge question I'm asking myself in part of my mind, which is: Is a viable list possible, that finally, does not run Candelabra of Tawnos, and if so, is a Dig through Time strategy the answer.

Part of the reason I haven't done this sooner is because during Treasure Cruise, I tried Reset Tide, then when they banned Treasure Cruise, they also made the changes to the open series, and in my personal life, it's just not worth it to me to play Legacy unless it's the main event (Doing alters and trading and all) And since the last Legacy main event I played in was back in January, that's the biggest factor in why I have been inactive both at the tournaments, as well as "thinking about the next strategy for High Tide" at home, basically it's also because I haven't needed to strategize since all the way back then, but now Washington DC is coming up, and it will be Legacy, I am back on the High Tide path appropriately.

Dig Through Time is good, it's why I tried out Solidarity Reset High Tide in the first place, had to at least give it a shot. I am not 100 % on what I will conclude, but some possibilities already thought of right now are this:

~A High Tide/Dig through Time decklist that runs only 2 Candelabra of Tawnos, to keep the potential for infinite mana with Capsize.
~A High Tide/Dig through Time decklist that that Doesn't run Candelabra of Tawnos at all, in otherwords, a potential Candeless build of the deck that isn't just a possible strategy, but the go to strategy for everyone, giving an unexpected benefit to all those that cannot afford Candels and now, they are not even needed.
~A High Tide/Dig through Time decklist that runs only 2 Sensei's Divining tops, CUTTING Counterbalance from the sideboard completely.
~A High Tide/Dig through Time decklist that runs no Sensei's Divining tops at all, focusing so much on spells that you have 0 non land permanents in the entire list.

1 thing in the back of my mind, though I am much less likely to consider is:
~A High Tide/Dig through Time decklist that doesn't even run Time Spiral, instead it runs the Dig Through Time/Meditate strategy that Reset Tide uses to draw it's entire deck instead. (There are a number of problems with this however and in the end, I am very unlikely to go this far.)

Anyhow, after typing all that, it helps to get my thoughts out, and whenever I'm doing this I always like sharing all the different things, whether they seem that great or absolutely horrible. Insight is always awesome and hopefully some of these things may even help you, as you yourself might have been thinking some of these things already with DC coming up, so know that you're not alone, even though this deck is seeing the least amount of play it ever has.

Technically this deck is likely considered dead by the majority, however, if there is a High Tide / Dig through Time strategy that really is viable, then almost nobody will see it coming.

Until then, just going through my mind with all these ideas, the next couple weeks leading up to DC are hopefully going to be, very interesting.

[Nantuko88]

The last two decks* to place highly were "Dig Through Time decks" that did not feature either Candle Sticks or the Top/Balance combination. I've been tinkering with High Tide for a few months (and assembling the cards) and personally liked the DTT approaches because they seem to be more streamlined. Also, most of these recent decks are ditching Cunning Wish or are only playing one. I'm still not sure how I feel about this because CW does allow a lot of flexibility, but so does playing a few utility pieces in the deck alongside Merchant Scroll. The savage tech part about CW is of course boarding out a high tide just in case a Surgical Extraction comes along. Our disadvantage really is the speed of high tide, with an uptick in cantrips (13 or so) and using DTT and 4 Turnabout we might be able to get the deck to go off more consistently turn 3 in the face of aggressive threats. I know I have managed to win turn three by going High Tide, TA, TS. What I noticed about going off early and in this build is that you will inevitably use your Time Spiral's more than with the Candlesticks build.


* http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9543&d=254778&f=LE
* http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=77388

And another for good measure:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9035&d=251480&f=LE

[kova]

Finished 5-3 at Lille with this list, and got this (http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplil15/wonderful-world-of-legacy-2015-07-04) as a bonus:)

Too bad the deck gave up in round 8: got 3 lands, 2 fow, candel and brainstorm (more lands and counter magic) off the time spiral at 10 storm vs. delver.

All 3 losses came from various delver decks too. I guess maindeck flusterstorms are not going to cut it.

12 island
2 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
2 scalding tarn
4 high tide
4 time spiral
4 merchant scroll
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 preordain
4 force of will
4 candelabra of tawnos
3 turnabout
2 dig through time
1 intuition
3 cunning wish
2 flusterstorm

SB:
1 blue sun's zenith
1 brain freeze
1 rebuild
1 echoing truth
1 turnabout
1 intuition
1 dig through time
1 flusterstorm
3 ratchet bomb
2 grafdigger's cage
1 wipe away
1 ravenous trap

[iGrok]

The last two decks* to place highly were "Dig Through Time decks" that did not feature either Candle Sticks or the Top/Balance combination. I've been tinkering with High Tide for a few months (and assembling the cards) and personally liked the DTT approaches because they seem to be more streamlined. Also, most of these recent decks are ditching Cunning Wish or are only playing one. I'm still not sure how I feel about this because CW does allow a lot of flexibility, but so does playing a few utility pieces in the deck alongside Merchant Scroll. The savage tech part about CW is of course boarding out a high tide just in case a Surgical Extraction comes along. Our disadvantage really is the speed of high tide, with an uptick in cantrips (13 or so) and using DTT and 4 Turnabout we might be able to get the deck to go off more consistently turn 3 in the face of aggressive threats. I know I have managed to win turn three by going High Tide, TA, TS. What I noticed about going off early and in this build is that you will inevitably use your Time Spiral's more than with the Candlesticks build.


* http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9543&d=254778&f=LE
* http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=77388

And another for good measure:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9035&d=251480&f=LE

You are going to have a very hard time going off on turn 3 consistently without Candels, no matter how many cantrips you jam into the deck. At that point, you should really just play Omnitell, and I mean that seriously. Turn 3 High Tide is an A+B+C mono-blue combo deck, while Omnitell is an A+B mono-blue combo deck. Cutting Candels just makes it that much harder to find one of your pieces.

To go off turn 3, without Candels, you have 3 mana in which to find High Tide, Time Spiral, and Turnabout. 3 cantrips or 1 cantrip and a Scroll. Then you play HT>TA>TS, Draw 7 and have 6 mana available. You absolutely have to hit three "Real" cards to keep going - some combination of High Tide, Scroll, Turnabout, and Spiral. Without these, you're dead in the water - if you don't have a HT or Scroll+Turnabout in that seven you can't even afford to cantrip to find it the other pieces:
Post-Spiral:
Tap Island for UU, Scroll for HT, Tap Island for UU, HT, Tap Island for UUU, Turnabout, 9 mana available to find and play TS.

To top it off, DTT definitely does not want to go off turn 3. You'll have to pay full cost, because unlike Solidarity we generally don't have cards in our graveyard, and you'll be very constrained on mana for the aforementioned reasons.

This might have sounded a little harsh; I don't mean to be, I really enjoy discussing High Tide! Personally, I think that rather than trying to shore up the disadvantages of our deck, we should emphasize the advantages - inevitability and more hard countermagic than any other deck in the format. I play two Tops and no counterbalances for three reasons: Top smooths out my draws, lets me float counterspells or combo against discard, and the capsize-candel-top combo. I play very control oriented, usually aiming to go off around turn 6. This gives me enough time to get the cards I need, counter a key spell or two, and even miss a couple land drops if I get unlucky. I've gone 3-1 or better every night for the last 3 months (aside from a single 2-2 night against Jund, Mud, Mud, and Fish), so I have to be doing -something- right. Our meta is a little light on Delver lists, but otherwise its pretty representative - Miracles, Omnitell, and Hatebears are the three most common decks. (Followed closely by Chalice.dec).

[clavio]

Finished 5-3 at Lille with this list, and got this (http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplil15/wonderful-world-of-legacy-2015-07-04) as a bonus:)

Too bad the deck gave up in round 8: got 3 lands, 2 fow, candel and brainstorm (more lands and counter magic) off the time spiral at 10 storm vs. delver.

All 3 losses came from various delver decks too. I guess maindeck flusterstorms are not going to cut it.

12 island
2 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
2 scalding tarn
4 high tide
4 time spiral
4 merchant scroll
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 preordain
4 force of will
4 candelabra of tawnos
3 turnabout
2 dig through time
1 intuition
3 cunning wish
2 flusterstorm

SB:
1 blue sun's zenith
1 brain freeze
1 rebuild
1 echoing truth
1 turnabout
1 intuition
1 dig through time
1 flusterstorm
3 ratchet bomb
2 grafdigger's cage
1 wipe away
1 ravenous trap

Nice. How did you like Dig Through Time?

What are you doing with all those ratchet bombs?

[feline]

The ratchet bombs seem sweet! Can hit all those hate bears or other annoying permanents, like Counterbalance!

[kova]

Digs have been great for me. I wouldn't change their count any time soon.
And ratchet bombs are hate bears' best friends:) Feline is right about counterbalance and there are chalice's and other nasty stuff around as well

[iGrok]

Have you tried Teferi's Realm? Deals with all the annoying permanents, permanently, plus it doesn't get hit by Revoker.

[RiverCake]

Have you tried Teferi's Realm? Deals with all the annoying permanents, permanently, plus it doesn't get hit by Revoker.

I Test Teferi's Realm right now and its running good !

[clavio]

Is anyone taking High Tide (or Solidarity) to the open in DC?

I'm thinking about it. Even though it's not super good in this meta you gotta know a lot of poor people bring burn to these big events. I'm trying to learn DnT but I don't know if I'll be able to figure it out in time.

I agree @ Teferi's Realm. Good call iGrok.

I've been testing 1 Volcanic Island main so I can board in Young Pyromancer in the Show and Tell and Miracles matchups! It's been great against Omni but I don't have a reliable Miracles testing partner. It makes Swan Song worse.

[Nantuko88]

A High Tide deck made it to day two of the SCG Washington DC Open:

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/3443_day_2_metagame_breakdown.html

[feline]

Someone day 2'd the Legacy Open with High Tide, they went 9-6 overall, talked to them after it was over, they were doing candeless build with max turnabouts and dig through times. Best part is they said they felt they could have won all but 2 of the matches they lost, in other words, they felt if they played differently they could have potentially top 8'ed. Also said they might post on the source about their run! Next chance at a big Legacy looks like Eternal Weekend and later on, St Louis open.

Personally by the way I bombed, went 4-4 drop, friend in same car as me knocked me out round 8 as we got paired and they were on miracles!

[iGrok]

Someone day 2'd the Legacy Open with High Tide, they went 9-6 overall, talked to them after it was over, they were doing candeless build with max turnabouts and dig through times. Best part is they said they felt they could have won all but 2 of the matches they lost, in other words, they felt if they played differently they could have potentially top 8'ed. Also said they might post on the source about their run! Next chance at a big Legacy looks like Eternal Weekend and later on, St Louis open.

Personally by the way I bombed, went 4-4 drop, friend in same car as me knocked me out round 8 as we got paired and they were on miracles!
What was your list/board this weekend?

[clavio]

I started out 5-1-1 before washing out to finish 5-3-1. Honestly I was extremely lucky to even finish that well, a lot of things went my way.

[Nantuko88]

I started out 5-1-1 before washing out to finish 5-3-1. Honestly I was extremely lucky to even finish that well, a lot of things went my way.

Do you think that High Tide was competitive at the DC open?

[clavio]

I don't really know. You could plausibly day2 with it (someone did) but day2 is going to be a much tougher battle after all the jokers are eliminated.

[Nantuko88]

Someone day 2'd the Legacy Open with High Tide, they went 9-6 overall, talked to them after it was over, they were doing candeless build with max turnabouts and dig through times. Best part is they said they felt they could have won all but 2 of the matches they lost, in other words, they felt if they played differently they could have potentially top 8'ed. Also said they might post on the source about their run! Next chance at a big Legacy looks like Eternal Weekend and later on, St Louis open.

Personally by the way I bombed, went 4-4 drop, friend in same car as me knocked me out round 8 as we got paired and they were on miracles!

Any lessons learned from your experience? I wonder if the DTT list sported a full play set. In my brew I am playing two which seems like plenty to me.

[feline]

The one who day 2'd with the deck was running this maindeck, and all wish target sideboard stuff:

4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
4 Time Spiral
4 High Tide
3 Turnabout
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Intuition
1 Meditate
3 Dig through Time
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
3 Cunning Wish
18 lands (I think Fetchland count was 8)

He said what I was suspecting myself but I hadn't come up with exactly how to do it yet, which was that Dig through Time was really good with the deck. Also to note, there's no Candels in the build, which I agreed with him that it was fine, since you want to fuel more spells to help Delve anyhow. Most Dig through Time decks in the format have 35-40 things of the main deck (instants/sorceries/fetch lands) that go to the graveyard once resolved.

[HammerAndSickled]

Hey guys, my name is Brian Marx and I'm the one who made day 2 in DC with High Tide. I'm at work right now but Feline suggested I write a tournament report for you guys and I agreed; I didn't take super detailed notes and my memory isn't always perfect but that will be put up some time tonight. But for a brief summary; I went 9-6 losing to Grixis Delver three times, and Death and Taxes, Sneak and Show, and Miracles once each. My list was as follows:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Dig Through Time
3 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
1 Meditate
4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
10 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:
1 Pact of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Swan Song
1 Intuition
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Dig Through Time
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Wipe Away
1 Polymorphist's Jest
1 Brain Freeze
1 Blue Sun's Zenith

If you have any questions post them here and when I write up my report I'll try to address any questions. The main question "Is Dig better than Candelabra" I think is a resounding yes from my experience; I played this deck as combo-control and pulled ahead on card advantage and countermagic every game thanks to Dig and I wouldn't cut any of them. Thanks!

[meffeo]

Hey guys, my name is Brian Marx and I'm the one who made day 2 in DC with High Tide. I'm at work right now but Feline suggested I write a tournament report for you guys and I agreed; I didn't take super detailed notes and my memory isn't always perfect but that will be put up some time tonight. But for a brief summary; I went 9-6 losing to Grixis Delver three times, and Death and Taxes, Sneak and Show, and Miracles once each.

If you have any questions post them here and when I write up my report I'll try to address any questions. The main question "Is Dig better than Candelabra" I think is a resounding yes from my experience; I played this deck as combo-control and pulled ahead on card advantage and countermagic every game thanks to Dig and I wouldn't cut any of them. Thanks!

Congratulations for the run, waiting for your report; did the Polymorphist's Jest perform well? I really like the Meditate's split.

[Stuart]

Dig just got banned, so I need something to replace it with. Any ideas, Tide vets? Below is my current list. (Note: I don't own Candles.)

Combo: 12
4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
3 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith

Draw/Tutor: 22
2 Dig Through Time
1 Intuition
2 Cunning Wish
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
1 Retraced Image

Protection: 8
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce

Mana: 18
6 Fetches
12 Island

Board: 15
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Snap
1 Wipe Away
2 Pact of Negation
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Teferi's Realm
2 Defense Grid

My first thoughts are:
- Replace Dig with Meditate. I ran this before Dig and liked it, but I feel like it's just devolving to a weaker form.
- Replace Dig with more Intuitions and/or Cunning Wish.
- Go for a more controlly build and try out a few Counterbalances and Tops. I've played Top as a 1-of in the Retraced Image slot; as a singleton it didn't do much, but the Countertop package could be nice.
- Go more cantrippy with replace Dig with some Gitaxian Probes.
- Buy Candles :laugh: