[Primer/Deck] Zoo

[Megadeus]

Yeah against the stoneblade decks with true name or snapcaster I'll bring in 1 or 2. Otherwise it's miracles and combo. Which I think that all warrants at least 2-3 in your board

[Ralf]

Yeah against the stoneblade decks with true name or snapcaster I'll bring in 1 or 2. Otherwise it's miracles and combo. Which I think that all warrants at least 2-3 in your board

Honestly, since abeyance + grip are in my board...Miracle is easier than before. the 2 REB were a great addition but I feel like I still would have my chances without them.
I definitely want to improve a few other MU.

So I'm really questioning the need for REB.

TNN vs KotR is just a matter of patience. Usually, we are ahead and our KotR is really huge; just wait to draw into a bloodrush and the game is yours.
TNN + equip is evil but that's why Qasali is for...

Tempo decks are tempo decks, if only we could only meet those...

What would you consider as a standard sideboard plan with my list (back a page); if you had to cut REBs ?

[ironclad8690]

Multiple 5-0 Big Zoo decks in yesterday's league:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/legacy-league-2016-04-26#online

[Jimbrewersbro]

Does anyone happen to know who Nekoyama is on MTGO. He has, over the last month, posted great results with both a punishing zoo list, and now a four color. I would love to pick his brain. Also, I believe Matt Mealing recently 5-0'd with a similar list. Does anyone know if he is on the source, or if he has discussed the deck anywhere else? It's great to see zoo doing well again, and I would like to get a discussion going about the changes they made.

[Curby]

Wow, four color Scepter Zoo is pretty hot. Atarka's Command has been used to good effect in Zoo before; I kind of wonder why he doesn't use a pair in place of a Helix and a Bolt or Selesnya Charm.

EDIT: Also, a curious lack of 3-drops in a deck with 8 ways of making 3 mana on turn 2. (I guess being Daze-proof for your 2-drop isn't horrible though.)

[Vandalize]

What happened to the good old Bolt in those Big Zoo lists? It's one of the reasons why Zoo is even a deck...

I'd build something like this:

Lands [23]
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Karakas
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures [20]
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Huntmaster of the Fells

Spells [17]
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lighting Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
2 Sylvan Library
1 Ajani Vegeant

Sideboard [15]
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
2 Boil
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Garruk Wildspeaker

Voice of Ressurgence doesn't beat like Tarmogoyf, but it's more resilient. I guess you can try and mix some number of both.

[Jimbrewersbro]

What happened to the good old Bolt in those Big Zoo lists? It's one of the reasons why Zoo is even a deck...

I'd build something like this:

Lands [23]
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Karakas
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures [20]
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Huntmaster of the Fells

Spells [17]
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lighting Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
2 Sylvan Library
1 Ajani Vegeant

Sideboard [15]
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
2 Boil
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Garruk Wildspeaker

Voice of Ressurgence doesn't beat like Tarmogoyf, but it's more resilient. I guess you can try and mix some number of both.

So I like the list. Is the move away from lightning bolt and to punishing fire for miracles? I wonder if it would good to go to the full four punishing fire, and add a domri rade to give you even more game vs miracles.

How is this match up vs eldrazi?

Anyone else have experience with the deck that could give input?

[Vandalize]

So I like the list. Is the move away from lightning bolt and to punishing fire for miracles? I wonder if it would good to go to the full four punishing fire, and add a domri rade to give you even more game vs miracles.

How is this match up vs eldrazi?

Anyone else have experience with the deck that could give input?

Game 1 is pretty bad if you can't get a Goyf or KotR ASAP. Thought-Knot Seer is just ridiculous against this deck.

[monkeymealing]

Hi there, I am one of the recent 5-0 with big Zoo. I took Nekoyama's list from his first 5-0 and modified it to my liking. The reason the deck does so well is because it beats all the other "fair" decks like all Delver builds/Maverick/Death and Taxes/blade decks ... you know stuff like that. We have game VS all Combo decks but the big weakness of this build is to Miricles. I have never talked to Nekoyama but I assume he moved to Abrupt Decay and Sceptor to deal with this big weakness.

I know most of you in this thread lean towards aggro Zoo, so it you have any questions about Big Zoo feel free to ask. As for Aggro Zoo I don't think it's something I will ever play, I like the flexibility of going a bit aggro or a bit mid range.

[Jimbrewersbro]

Hi there, I am one of the recent 5-0 with big Zoo. I took Nekoyama's list from his first 5-0 and modified it to my liking. The reason the deck does so well is because it beats all the other "fair" decks like all Delver builds/Maverick/Death and Taxes/blade decks ... you know stuff like that. We have game VS all Combo decks but the big weakness of this build is to Miricles. I have never talked to Nekoyama but I assume he moved to Abrupt Decay and Sceptor to deal with this big weakness.

I know most of you in this thread lean towards aggro Zoo, so it you have any questions about Big Zoo feel free to ask. As for Aggro Zoo I don't think it's something I will ever play, I like the flexibility of going a bit aggro or a bit mid range.

Thanks for posting, I had contacted you on twitter to get you here, so I really appreciate you following up.

Couple questions, how did the deck do against Eldrazi, did the creatures just out class them? Also against Miracles, were your planeswalkers ever able to push you through? Any changes you would suggest now? Also did you just completely fold to combo?

[Curby]

Yeah, I'm also curious how combo matchups tend to play out. It seems the only anti-(Storm-)combo card is Teeg, but in an Eldrazi-heavy meta that suppresses Storm, that might be ok.

[monkeymealing]

Thanks for posting, I had contacted you on twitter to get you here, so I really appreciate you following up.

Couple questions, how did the deck do against Eldrazi, did the creatures just out class them? Also against Miracles, were your planeswalkers ever able to push you through? Any changes you would suggest now? Also did you just completely fold to combo?

Hey Jim!

Eldrazi was fine, it all depends on how explosive they are. Plow/Path/Goyf/KOTR all let us keep up with them.

As for Miracles, it fell like I was a dog in a lot of different area's. I have only really played VS the Mentor version but people tel me that version isn't really played in real life. Chandra was the best Walker versus them. And yes it did feel like I folded to the combo, they also blind flipped Jace on my 4 drops 3 times which was disheartening.

I have come to the same conclusion that Nekoyama did, I just haven't had a chance to play since. The conclusion that Punishing Fires wasn't worth what the combo did to your mana, and it costing 2 mana came up a lot. The reason I cut Nactal was because with 4 groves it was really hard to make a 3/3. I like some of his changes to the deck that give more game VS Miracles. I love the Decays and DRS but not sold on the scepter package.

[monkeymealing]

Yeah, I'm also curious how combo matchups tend to play out. It seems the only anti-(Storm-)combo card is Teeg, but in an Eldrazi-heavy meta that suppresses Storm, that might be ok.

There isn't much combo in the meta ATM, but it is an auto loss game 1. Out of theboard there's enough disruption with Thalia/Tegg/REB/Ooze/Grip/Needle/Null Rod that we can win the match.

[Megadeus]

I don't think you should ever hedge on assuming you can beat storm on the draw

[Seraphix]

I don't think you should ever hedge on assuming you can beat storm on the draw

Totally agree. I think 1 G. Teeg maindeck is necessary in any Big Zoo list with GSZ.

I've played Voice of Resurgence a bit in Legacy and it's OK but really poor in many matchups. I would never want multiples. I'm also skeptical of multiple copies of Huntmaster. The MTGO meta must be really weird.

[Jimbrewersbro]

A couple card selection questions. How were the huntmasters and Voice of resurgence performing for you. I love how they sound in principal, I just never see them in legacy.

[Curby]

not sold on the scepter package.

What would you run instead? Planeswalkers and big beaters like Knight like in your last build? Or something to attack cantrip-happy decks like Miracles, Delver, and Storm? I've been wondering why Eidolon of the Great Revel is so seldom seen in Zoo.

[monkeymealing]

So I've played most of my Legacy on MODO, so I'm not sure how the meta is compared to IRL. Of the 50 matches I have played with various Big Zoo lists I have only played vs combo 4 times. 1-1 vs Storm and 1-1 vs Sneak and Show So I guess if you expect more combo then yes a Tegg main is necessary.

Voice of Resurgence - I have played between 1-3 main with my conclusion being that I want 1 main and 1 board. It's insane vs decks without STP and you get a lot of players who sit on removal and don't respond to the GSZ for 2 putting them in the spot of taking damage from the attack or giving you an elemental.

Huntmaster - Second best card in the deck, I often wish I had access to the 3rd. ( GSZ being the best card and this being in a grindy non-combo meta). You often play or get it after your opponent is empty handed so they need to top deck an answer. I have had at lease 10 games where I have played a Huntmaster and they untapped, drew a blank and conceded.

As for what I would play over the Sceptor package? I would have to test it first and see, I plan on getting a couple leagues in this weekend.

[ironclad8690]

Glad to hear your input mealing!

Online meta differs in that

1) Way more Miracles than paper

2) Much less combo, elves in particular.

3) Much less Rishadan Port decks.


As far as tips for beating Miracles:

1) Planeswalkers that make tokens (Garruk Relentless, Xenagos, the Reveler) have been very good for me. They just don't have many ways to deal with them, especially if they are struggling to answer creatures simultaneously.

2) Haste creatures/ETB creatures (Bloodbraid Elf, Giant Solifuge, Boggart Ram-Gang, Fires of Yavimaya if you want to go really deep).

3) Manlands. Don't be afraid to run a Raging Ravine or 2. Creeping Tar Pit is very instrumental in Shardless BUG and Deathblade variants, I am surprised more decks don't play manlands. If you have other creatures in play just don't activate it (so you don't get Terminus blown out), often they have to commit mana to other things and the manland can attack safely. Worst case scenario they have untapped mana and you only have the manland to attack with, but it's better than nothing.

Make sure you run a couple of ways to shut off top in the sideboard, as well as Choke/Pyroblast/whatever blue hate you prefer.

Happy Zooing!

[monkeymealing]

Glad to hear your input mealing!

Online meta differs in that

1) Way more Miracles than paper

2) Much less combo, elves in particular.

3) Much less Rishadan Port decks.


As far as tips for beating Miracles:

1) Planeswalkers that make tokens (Garruk Relentless, Xenagos, the Reveler) have been very good for me. They just don't have many ways to deal with them, especially if they are struggling to answer creatures simultaneously.

2) Haste creatures/ETB creatures (Bloodbraid Elf, Giant Solifuge, Boggart Ram-Gang, Fires of Yavimaya if you want to go really deep).

3) Manlands. Don't be afraid to run a Raging Ravine or 2. Creeping Tar Pit is very instrumental in Shardless BUG and Deathblade variants, I am surprised more decks don't play manlands. If you have other creatures in play just don't activate it (so you don't get Terminus blown out), often they have to commit mana to other things and the manland can attack safely. Worst case scenario they have untapped mana and you only have the manland to attack with, but it's better than nothing.

Make sure you run a couple of ways to shut off top in the sideboard, as well as Choke/Pyroblast/whatever blue hate you prefer.

Happy Zooing!

Cool thank you! It's not hard to convince me to play any of the cards above, they are my list of favs!

[monkeymealing]

nekoyama is my MTG spirit animal!

Here is his new version of zoo! I am assuming the Vial is his answer to Miracles!

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/421435#online

also look at the list of decks he's come up with:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/nekoyama

[ironclad8690]

He certainly is a creative dude. Every time I try to hit him up on mtgo he never responds lol. I want to bounce some ideas off of him.

[r497]

Hey guys. I'm a Modern Zoo player and interested in Legacy Zoo.

I've found this list online, do you think it can work?

20 LANDS
4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

23 CREATURES
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

16 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile

1 OTHER SPELLS
1 Sylvan Library

SIDEBOARD
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Price of Progress
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Grafdigger's Cage

Also, has anyone tried something like the Modern list of Zoo, running more creatures to go wide and having Burning-Tree Emissary + Reckless Bushwhacker/Atarka's Command to pump things up?

[Jimbrewersbro]

Hey guys. I'm a Modern Zoo player and interested in Legacy Zoo.

I've found this list online, do you think it can work?

20 LANDS
4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

23 CREATURES
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

16 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile

1 OTHER SPELLS
1 Sylvan Library

SIDEBOARD
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Price of Progress
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Grafdigger's Cage

Also, has anyone tried something like the Modern list of Zoo, running more creatures to go wide and having Burning-Tree Emissary + Reckless Bushwhacker/Atarka's Command to pump things up?


Your list is pretty old school but I believe it would shred a lot of the Delver decks that are out there. The biggest issue is that you really can't beat miracles because terminus/countertop is so difficult to beat (not impossible, but like 10% with this list). Game one you can't really beat combo, so your sideboard needs as many pieces as possible to beat it. The third issue is that a resolved batterskull is difficult if you don't have pridemage in your main deck. Again you can beat it, but it usually takes a 2 for one trade. Finally more recent zoo decks have been playing PWs main deck to give some game against Miracles, or splashing back for abrupt decay. Hope that helps.

[Curby]

PW? Also, if you have any Eldrazi, Merfolk, or Loam in your meta, beware of Chalice. My Zoo runs an old-school low curve because I only play it casually, but even I run more 2s (specifically Pridemages). As for the recent lists that have been doing well, their curves are quite a bit higher.

[r497]

Do you guys have an up-to-date list to suggets as a start point?

The last monthly Legacy League at my LGS had this top8:
UB Reanimator, Punishing Jund, Goblins, Miracles, Grixis Delver, Elves, Rug Delver, D&T.
There is also one guy that is always on Burn, one on Esper Deathblade and Shardless BUG.

[Jimbrewersbro]

PW? Also, if you have any Eldrazi, Merfolk, or Loam in your meta, beware of Chalice. My Zoo runs an old-school low curve because I only play it casually, but even I run more 2s (specifically Pridemages). As for the recent lists that have been doing well, their curves are quite a bit higher.

PWs=Planeswalkers (ie. Domri, Arlin Kord, Nissa).

Here is an example of the list that has 5-0 a daily in the last couple months.
22 LANDS
1 Arid Mesa
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
17 CREATURES
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Voice of Resurgence
12 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares
9 OTHER SPELLS
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Domri Rade
3 Oath of Nissa
2 Sylvan Library
SIDEBOARD
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
2 Pithing Needle
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

[r497]

Punishing+Grove is good in which matchups?
Deathrite is bad in the deck?

[Seraphix]

Punishing+Grove is good in which matchups?
Deathrite is bad in the deck?

I've thought about trying Deathrite in Zoo but the problem it is really at odds with the manabase. You must have a critical mass of Plains and Mountains to power up your Nacatls, but in an aggressive deck Deathrite wants a bunch of Black sources to use the drain ability. This is awkward since Black is the splash color spell-wise. There might be a way to make it work with Badlands/Srubland/a different mix of fetches but I haven't tried.

Punishing Fire is best against other midrange decks and control decks. Its usually good against aggro/tempo/tribal too but is sometimes a bit slow against those decks.

[r497]

I've thought about trying Deathrite in Zoo but the problem it is really at odds with the manabase. You must have a critical mass of Plains and Mountains to power up your Nacatls, but in an aggressive deck Deathrite wants a bunch of Black sources to use the drain ability. This is awkward since Black is the splash color spell-wise. There might be a way to make it work with Badlands/Srubland/a different mix of fetches but I haven't tried.

Punishing Fire is best against other midrange decks and control decks. Its usually good against aggro/tempo/tribal too but is sometimes a bit slow against those decks.

In that list posted above by Jimbrewersbro there's no Nacatl, so maybe Deathrites could work. It's a little weird with Reliquary, tho.

Also, no Bloodbraid?
Sorry for the tons of noobish questions, just trying to figure the archetype out hahaha
It's somewhat different from it's Modern port.

[Seraphix]

In that list posted above by Jimbrewersbro there's no Nacatl, so maybe Deathrites could work. It's a little weird with Reliquary, tho.

Also, no Bloodbraid?
Sorry for the tons of noobish questions, just trying to figure the archetype out hahaha
It's somewhat different from it's Modern port.

The Punishing Zoo lists from MTGO with GSZ and no Nacatls or Bolts look really weird to me (and I still can't fathom not playing 1 G. Teeg main, but I guess no one on MTGO plays combo). Once you've removed your most aggressive elements I think you're better off playing Punishing Maverick, which is much better equipped to grind out games with Mother of Runes, Stoneforge Mystic, Scryb Ranger, and lands like Maze of Ith or Dark Depths. When I played Punishing Zoo for a bit there were definitely many spots I wished I was playing Maverick (not to say one is better or worse, but just different).

There is a world where you could just take the list that was posted and shave some Hierarchs for Deathrites and throw in a Bayou and maybe another Black land. When playing a slower deck I think its less important to have access to the drain ability all the time. Deathrite sometimes shrinks your Knights, but not to the point that they are prohibitive to play together. I would keep at least one Hierarch though, its easy to have a mix with GSZ and there are absolutely spots where you would rather have her instead.

Megadeus was testing a list with Bloodbraid Elf a few months ago and seemed to be doing ok with it. Its powerful but can be surprisingly awkward and poorly positioned in Zoo unless you construct your deck very carefully.

[r497]

Do you mind sharing your list, Seraphix?
It's always nice to see different takes

[Megadeus]

Yeah I had some success on a local level, but that was really it. It's awkward because I think you want to main deck Thalia right now, and with T4 Bloodbraid and Thalia out you need 5 mana for any non creature you hit off her. But both are kind of key cards to handling Miracles so it's kind of necessary imo. Also Ghor Clan was always awesome for me so anyone interested in zoo I highly recommend it. Overall though the deck just felt incredibly underpowered compared to most of the meta and there was little to do to help that fact.

The most powerful thing I felt like I was doing most games was price of progress which leads me to believe burn is just better in most scenarios. I thought about a list including Noble Hierarchs and Magus of the Moons, but never really got around to trying it out

[HateKnuckle]

Obviously the deck folds combo strats so a certain amount of MD hate is required. I've seen Thalias, Voices, and Teegs. What are the other options that work?

Blood Moon? This would shore up the Eldrazi MU as well as a couple of other greedy decks. The downside of course being that you can't reliably get Nacatl to work if you're even playing her.

Grand Abolisher? If the deck needs any more help against Miracles he might be right for the job.

Thalia, Cathar Heretic? She is definitely Eldrazi hate as well as Sneak and Show hate.


Also, should the deck include some sort of stoneforge package? I can imagine that the power of your deck just flies through the roof at the addition of awesome equipment and their herald, Stoneforge Mystic.

[Sunday Funday]

I came across this list on tcdecks:

Creatures [22]

3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
Instants [13]

2 Price of Progress
3 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
Sorceries [4]

4 Chain Lightning
Enchantments [1]

1 Sylvan Library
Lands [20]

1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Plateau
3 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Tormod's Crypt

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Tormod's Crypt

I really like the main deck Pridemages to stop problematic artifacts/enchantments (Chalice, CounterBalance) and also the 3 Gaddock Teegs to stop the unfair decks like storm (e.g. Empty, Ad Nauseam, Tendrils), and Miracles (Entreat, Terminus). What do you guys think?

[Seraphix]

I came across this list on tcdecks:

Creatures [22]

3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
Instants [13]

2 Price of Progress
3 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
Sorceries [4]

4 Chain Lightning
Enchantments [1]

1 Sylvan Library
Lands [20]

1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Plateau
3 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Tormod's Crypt

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Tormod's Crypt

I really like the main deck Pridemages to stop problematic artifacts/enchantments (Chalice, CounterBalance) and also the 3 Gaddock Teegs to stop the unfair decks like storm (e.g. Empty, Ad Nauseam, Tendrils), and Miracles (Entreat, Terminus). What do you guys think?

Solid looking old-school list. Large quantities of QPM/G. Teeg were commonly played MD for exactly the reasons you mention.

I do question the Eldrazi matchup for small Zoo though. Maybe it's time to play Blood Moon in the SB.

[Pellefant]

Because it felt like forever since I summoned nacatls I decided to sleeve them up for the weekly legacy.

This is the list I played through 4 rounds yesterday, roughly 30 players I think.

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Skarrg, the Rage Pits
1 Wasteland

3 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Sylvan Library

3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Voice of Resurgence
1 Eternal Witness
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Huntmaster of the Fells

SB
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Trinisphere
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Dismember
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Nahiri, the Lithomancer
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Red Elemental Blast


Round 1, vs. Jund Loam prison (with Punishing Fire, Burning Wish and Chains/Anvil combo)
G1 he stabilizes at 2 life and gets his Chains of Mephistopheles/Anvil of Bogardan lock going. We both mulligan to 5 G2 but i get Sylvan Library going early which gives me plenty of fuel. G3 = double nacatl beats + SoFaI for the win.

1-0 (2-1 in games)

Round 2, vs. Deadguy Ale
G1 he gets new Thalia equipped with SoFaI and I can't handle her. G2 I beat him down with cats and stuff while he tries to stabilize, I burn him for the last 2 points the turn before he would get Jitte online. G3 I sit behind a wall of huge knights while Punishing Fire mows down his team.

2-0 (4-2 in games)

Round 3, vs. Goblins (Sandro95 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?34794-Sandro95))
G1 Sandro mulligans to 5. I get a boardful of critters and beat down, Skarrg, the Rage Pits let's me connect through his chumpers.
G2 I stave off lackey turn 1 and lackey turn 2. The board clogs up good within a few turns but Skarrg once again enables me to close the game out fast.

3-0 (6-2 in games)

Round 4, vs. UR delver
G1 he beats me down with delver and the flying haste prowess guy. Price of Progress for 8 finishes the job. Opponent expresses confusion over Wild Nacatl and Grove of the Burnwillows in the same deck.
G2 I get Hierarch into SoFaI while my opponent fails to find a second land and Brainstorm locks himself (despite playing probe and Ponder turn 1). He scoops to the sword.
G3 I remove his turn 1 delver and he spends a couple of turns looking for more creatures while I deploy some creatures, including a 4/4 Knight who eventually goes the distance.

4-0 (8-3 in games)

I've been trying to make Huntmaster of the Fells work for some time but it continues to be underwhelming unfortunately, going forward I'm probably running Thrun instead.

Deck was a blast to play, not much else to say, I just decided to share my latest endeavors since zoo gets so very little love nowadays :)

[Curby]

Thanks for the report, and congrats on the finish! Fellow Zoo fan here, but I'm not sure it's competitive in a general meta. I notice you dodged all combo (not just Storm and S&T but even more fringe decks like Reanimator, Dredge, Painter, Elves, etc.), which partially explains your result.

I'm also wondering at what point a deck stops being Zoo. It looks a lot like Punishing Maverick (PFires/Hierarch/KotR/GSZ) and a bit like D&T (SFM package, land-based disruption). Like I said I'm a Zoo fan, so it kind of saddens me that "original Zoo" (aggressive, low-cost critters with burn to clear the way) just doesn't work anymore. Hell, you've got zero Tarmogoyfs in the list. Everything I've seen in the past year or so swings much heavier in the aggro-control arena than pure aggro.

I'm happy for your result, and I hope you keep on running Zoo or Zoo derivatives. I just wish the deck didn't have to become something else and then dodge a fair percentage of the meta in order to have a chance.

[Seraphix]

Because it felt like forever since I summoned nacatls I decided to sleeve them up for the weekly legacy.

...



Glad people are still rocking Zoo. This looks a lot like this lists nekoyama has been doing well with on MTGO. Do you have any thoughts on Skaarg VS Kessig Wolf Run?

I'm working on a new Big Zoo list with Thalia, Heretic Cathar that I'll hopefully have a chance to try soon.


Thanks for the report, and congrats on the finish! Fellow Zoo fan here, but I'm not sure it's competitive in a general meta. I notice you dodged all combo (not just Storm and S&T but even more fringe decks like Reanimator, Dredge, Painter, Elves, etc.), which partially explains your result.

I'm also wondering at what point a deck stops being Zoo. It looks a lot like Punishing Maverick (PFires/Hierarch/KotR/GSZ) and a bit like D&T (SFM package, land-based disruption). Like I said I'm a Zoo fan, so it kind of saddens me that "original Zoo" (aggressive, low-cost critters with burn to clear the way) just doesn't work anymore. Hell, you've got zero Tarmogoyfs in the list. Everything I've seen in the past year or so swings much heavier in the aggro-control arena than pure aggro.

I'm happy for your result, and I hope you keep on running Zoo or Zoo derivatives. I just wish the deck didn't have to become something else and then dodge a fair percentage of the meta in order to have a chance.

Its still decidedly a Zoo deck, not a Maverick deck, as long as it has Nacatls and no Mother of Runes. I think small Zoo is in a tough spot these days against major decks like Counter-Top, Lands, and Eldrazi, which bigger Zoo decks with cards like GSZ and Knight are much better positioned against.

[Curby]

Its still decidedly a Zoo deck, not a Maverick deck, as long as it has Nacatls and no Mother of Runes.

So you don't need Lightning Bolts in your Zoo? You don't need Tarmogoyfs in your Zoo? Replacing raw consistency with a full equipment toolbox, creature toolbox, and land toolbox sounds like Zoo to you?

Well, if you're ok calling that Zoo simply because it has Nacatls, I guess I'm happy for you. I still disagree, but it's not a disagreement that helps the archetype, so I'll shut up now. :laugh:

[Megadeus]

I mean it's a still mostly going to want to be aggressive. I agree that it is unfortunate that old style Zoo is such shit. And it's not even because of combo as much as it just cant beat actual anything. I mean I personally liked Skarrg because the toughness boost was surprisingly relevant. You get to run Nacatls right through True Names and not worry about them dying which is sweet. Or now DnT has a bunch of 3 power men like Thalia, Flickerwisp, and Serra Avenger, so it's nice to not care about them too. Congrats on the finish! I haven't sleeved up my Nacatls in awhile. I actually probably don't even have enough duals for the deck anymore at this point. I got rid of a plateau because why would I ever need 2...

[Pellefant]

Thanks for the kind words guys!


Glad people are still rocking Zoo. This looks a lot like this lists nekoyama has been doing well with on MTGO. Do you have any thoughts on Skaarg VS Kessig Wolf Run?

I'm definitely inspired by nekoyamas decks, I would love for him to post in this thread but he doesn't seem to be a sourcer. When it comes to Skarrg vs. wolf run I agree with Megadeus that the toughness boost is surprisingly relevant.


I notice you dodged all combo (not just Storm and S&T but even more fringe decks like Reanimator, Dredge, Painter, Elves, etc.), which partially explains your result.

I dodged combo, and had two really favorable matchups (goblins and deadguy ale) so lady luck was pretty kind to me. I absolutely agree you generally want to dodge combo when playing this style of zoo but that's true for traditional aggressive zoo as well.
SOME combo decks aren't THAT bad matchups though: vs. S&T I have Knights/Karakas maindeck and alot to bring in from the board (3canonists, trinisphere, Oblivion Ring, Reclamation Sage, REB) and vs. ANT a turn 2 Gaddock can be a possibility in game 1.
Elves is a real problem though, and even more so are the really fast decks like tinfins/belcher/TES/oops all spells and the like. Also High Tide is close to impossible I would imagine.


Regarding the zoo vs maverick distinction I think both Seraphix and kirbydsl have fair points. A deck with a full set of Nacatls in place of Mother of Runes enables you to play way more aggressive (if I had moms instead of cats in my G3 vs Loam prison there's no way I could have won that game). Quoting lordofthepit IIRC: "A turn 1 Mother of Runes followed by a turn 2 Hierarch means you sit back defensively. A turn 1 Nacatl followed by a turn 2 Hierarch beats for four. "
On the other hand these GSZ "big zoo" lists are very far from the classic aggro versions, I mean my list is like maybe 10 cards away from being a straight up punishing maverick deck.

It's sad that traditional zoo is close to unplayable now, and I don't think Wizards is going to ever give us enough new tools to change this fact (I mean, Ghor-Clan Rampager was the latest card that really impacted traditional zoo, right?).

[Seraphix]

...I actually probably don't even have enough duals for the deck anymore at this point. I got rid of a plateau because why would I ever need 2...

To play Zoo, of course. STEP IT UP.

http://i.imgur.com/ArBeoQ5.jpg

[Seraphix]

Anyone else slinging Nacatls right now? I've played Punishing Zoo at 4 small local events over the last few weeks and prized at all of them.

Maindeck has been pretty constant:

4x Nacatl
4x Hierarch
3x Pridemage
2x Ooze
1x G.Teeg
4x Knight
2x Thalia, HC

4x GSZ
4x Bolt
4x Plow
3x Fire
1x Library
1x Chandra, Pyromaster

8x Fetch
3x Savannah
2x Taiga
2x Plateau
1x Forest
1x Arbor
3x Grove
1x Karakas
1x Wasteland
1x Kessig Wolf Run (tried Skarrg a bit here)

SB changes around often, right now its:

3x Thalia GoT
1x G.Teeg
1x Canonist
1x Pyroblast
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Surgical
1x E-Tutor
1x Cage
1x Needle
1x Stony Silence
1x Worship

Thalia HC has been very solid and is a natural fit in the deck. Sometimes I miss playing Tarmogoyf though, like in the Eldrazi matchup (that's what the Worship is primarily for).

[CRich3]

Anyone else slinging Nacatls right now? I've played Punishing Zoo at 4 small local events over the last few weeks and prized at all of them.

Thalia HC has been very solid and is a natural fit in the deck. Sometimes I miss playing Tarmogoyf though, like in the Eldrazi matchup (that's what the Worship is primarily for).

I go back and forth to playing zoo and deathblade, but I prefer to play fast zoo. My matchup vs eldrazi usually goes by who plays first. I should add the new Thalia because she is amazing.

[ironclad8690]

The neko hath struck again

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/534261#online

[maharis]

I've been working on a build with Oath of Nissa. The card seems really, really strong in terms of helping the deck not completely stall out and increasing the number of good keeps on turn 1. It's basically a creature OR a land in a position where you'd have to decide on a creature AND a land. I also like that it sacrifices itself to be an enchantment in the GY for Tarmogoyf.

Trouble I'm having right now is that I'm not sure which actual creatures are the strongest. I'll post my list below, but the creatures that aren't in that I'm considering:

Hooting Mandrills
Narnam Renegade
Nimble Mongoose
Renegade Rallier
Steppe Lynx

Or just more of the 2-ofs. I am trying to avoid running any sort of mana dork in order to keep it a classic aggro deck. I could see adding a couple PWs since they are hits off of Oath as well. Domri is probably the best idea and I would like it a lot with Narnam Renegade if I go in that direction.

This is the build I've had sitting on my desk for a while, I'm going to round it out by next week.

4 Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Goyf
3 QPM
3 Knight OTR
2 SFM
2 Mom
1 Grim Lavamancer

4 Bolt
4 Oath of Nissa
3 Path to Exile
2 Chain Lightning
2 Lightning Helix
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library

10 fetches
3 Taiga
2 Savannah
2 PLateau
1 Forest/Mountain/Plains

[Curby]

Not to lean too hard into library manipulation, but Sylvan Library with Domri Rade could pretty easily guarantee two cards a turn with zero life loss. Renegade Rallier would be nice to recycle Pridemages. A lot of these changes make it a slower deck though (but that might be ok).

[Megadeus]

I strongly suggest you try Ghor Clan Rampager if you haven't. It's also a reach spell that you can get off of Oath of Nissa

[maharis]

Ghor-Clan is definitely a good call, I gotta find the room for those. Also pretty good against cards like TNN and opposing goyfs/anglers just for pushing damage through. Probably better than Helix and/or Mom.

I could see a Naya midrange deck -- some sort of rebuild of a red Maverick deck maybe -- that evolves out of this list but I just want to jam some Nacatls at the moment.

Oath of Nissa is seriously really good. I'm on the lookout for other G cantrips. The well is pretty dry. What about Tireless Tracker as top end with all the fetches instead of Knight?

[Ralf]

Ghor-Clan is definitely a good call, I gotta find the room for those. Also pretty good against cards like TNN and opposing goyfs/anglers just for pushing damage through. Probably better than Helix and/or Mom.

I could see a Naya midrange deck -- some sort of rebuild of a red Maverick deck maybe -- that evolves out of this list but I just want to jam some Nacatls at the moment.

Oath of Nissa is seriously really good. I'm on the lookout for other G cantrips. The well is pretty dry. What about Tireless Tracker as top end with all the fetches instead of Knight?

Last christmas, my friends and I were fine tuning this list:

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Wild Nacatl

2 Lotus Petal

4 Sylvan Library

3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Chain Lightning

SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Price of Progress
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Sudden Shock
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

The only remaining last 2 slots to improve are the sudden shock (was pyroclasm at first). But I have yet to find something relevant.
The lone cavern is to beat Miracle.
The rest is pretty self explanatory.

[maharis]

I went to the store and picked up some cards, and had a little bit of time to play this list at legacy FNM

4 Narnam Renegade
4 Renegade Rallier
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Steppe Lynx
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Hooting Mandrills
1 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Oath of Nissa
3 Path to Exile
2 Chain Lightning
1 Sylvan Library
1 Domri Rade

10 fetches
7 duals
2 basics

3 Thalia, GOT
3 Containment Priest
2 Pithing Needle
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pyroblast
1 Null Rod
1 Forked Bolt

Rd 1: Vial Maverick. He also had Renegade Rallier in his deck. Die roll was deterministic in the first couple games (he won and took G1 fast; I was OTP and cruised in game 2). Game 3 was very exciting. I had Needle on Mom, he QPM'd it, I Ralliered it back, he Ralliered back his QPM and killed it again. Then I found another Rallier to bring it back, but he found yet another Rallier and double-Wasted me down to a single Forest. He had a huge KOTR, had to be at least 13/13, but I was sitting on a couple Narnam Renegades and he couldn't attack thru without mom. Eventually I started to rebuild my board, but he found Scryb Ranger and SFM to get a Jitte active. I missed a winning line involving Lavamancer and Bolt with the Jitte trigger on the stack and I died with him at 1 life.

Rd. 2: Omnisneak. I wasn't expecting much but I did win game 2 thanks to t2 Thalia and Ghor-Clan Rampager. Game 3 was close, he showed in Griz on t2 but I dropped Thalia and squeezed his mana while I had 7 power coming across to blank Griselbrand (Thalia, Narnam, Nacatl). He ended up getting off a second S&T and with Ancient Tomb had just enough to find an Intuition and triple Emrakul which wasn't taxed by Thalia.

Thoughts:

--The Steppe Lynx/Rallier idea seems good in theory but I think is too clunky. I think Lynx and Mandrills could just be 3 Knights and a Skarrg, which would allow me to run some SB lands like Karakas or Maze which would've both been good in these games.

--That being said, Rallier is the real deal and Narnam Renegade is way better than Kird Ape. Revolt is probably the best Legacy mechanic since Prowess. Rallier's recursion is excellent, and I am considering Seal of Fire instead of Chain Lightning because of that synergy. The Deathtouch on Narnam was crucial to me not just getting run over by a huge knight in match 1.

--Oath of Nissa is also great. In my second game vs. Omni, I kept 6 with 1 land and Thalia and Oath found my second land so I could get her down, then a later one found the winning Ghor-Clan. These new cards are good, even if old-fashioned zoo isn't the best shell. Gonna keep trying for a bit though.

[maharis]

I've been playing some variants of this deck on MTGO and sadly haven't done so well. I usually win 1-2 rounds in a league but I did 3-2 one of them and get a free roll.

Because of the price of Tarmogoyf I got a little creative and decided to go all-in on a landfall plan. This was the build that pulled off the 3-2, including a 2-0 win against Miracles:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6VU1jDWAAEFM8D.jpg

Frustratingly, I seem to win at least one game in almost every match, barring disastrous matchups like storm (which is very popular online). On the other hand, I've ultimated Ajani, Caller of the Pride twice, which is pretty awesome. Never sleep on a three-mana planeswalker. Dropping one on turn 2 and just ticking up till you send in the cats is a perfectly legitimate plan.

But losing to storm doesn't bother me as much as losing to Delver, which I feel like should be a better matchup than it is. The major problems I've had with it are that timely Wastelands can really hurt and postboard they become the control deck and sit back, picking off the threats.

I'm considering moving into more of a midrange deck, leveraging Mother of Runes for protection but still on the Rallier value plan. Still trying to work out what that looks like. I don't think Berserk is in that deck, nor Steppe Lynx. Maybe Narnam Renegade just because it's such a nice roadblock, but I imagine the plan is going to be to go bigger and try to piece together a dominating board.

A Dark Confidant-type effect in Naya would do wonders for this deck. I don't think any is ever going to be forthcoming.

[Megadeus]

There's always Sylvan Library

[jaruri]

I've been wanting to build zoo for a bit and after looking over this thread, I've been thinking of this list.

22 Lands:
8 Fetch
3 Grove
3 Basic
Karakas
Kessig
Wasteland
5 Duals

Creatures:
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Renegade Rallier
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Bloodbraid Elf OR 1 Thrun, 1 Huntsmaster

1 Arlinn Kord

4 Oath of Nissa OR 4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares

Also, one thing to note is that my local metagame is very fair, with a lot of DnT, BUG, and various delver decks. Almost no combo.
I'm mostly conflicted between Green Suns and Oath. Oath is really good for finding things in a pinch, and is usable when you're low on mana, but Green Suns finds exactly what you need.

I've also been thinking about Bloodbraid, since I'm coming over from Jund and it seems like it would slot in pretty well with my list. I haven't had any chances to test yet (hoping to sleeve this up for the next legacy night). Not sure if its worth it over something like Thrun or Huntsmaster though.

Any feedback would be appreciated!

[Seraphix]

I've been wanting to build zoo for a bit and after looking over this thread, I've been thinking of this list.

22 Lands:
8 Fetch
3 Grove
3 Basic
Karakas
Kessig
Wasteland
5 Duals

Creatures:
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Renegade Rallier
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Bloodbraid Elf OR 1 Thrun, 1 Huntsmaster

1 Arlinn Kord

4 Oath of Nissa OR 4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares

Also, one thing to note is that my local metagame is very fair, with a lot of DnT, BUG, and various delver decks. Almost no combo.
I'm mostly conflicted between Green Suns and Oath. Oath is really good for finding things in a pinch, and is usable when you're low on mana, but Green Suns finds exactly what you need.

I've also been thinking about Bloodbraid, since I'm coming over from Jund and it seems like it would slot in pretty well with my list. I haven't had any chances to test yet (hoping to sleeve this up for the next legacy night). Not sure if its worth it over something like Thrun or Huntsmaster though.

Any feedback would be appreciated!

If you're going to play Oath, play Bloodbraid Elf. I think I'd want Tarmogoyfs in an Oath list too. If playing Zenith, you can try a different 4-drop green creature as a 1-of.

As far as 4 mana Planeswalkers go, there are much better options than Arlinn Kord: Elspeth Knight-Errant, Garruk Relentless, Chandra Pyromaster, Ajani Vengeant, Gideon Ally of Zendikar...

For your manabase, I think 3 basics is too many. I went from playing 3 to 2 to 1 in Punishing Zoo. Once you're playing a bunch of utility lands like Grove, Karakas, and Wasteland Wild Nacatl becomes surprisingly hard to power up.

[jaruri]

If you're going to play Oath, play Bloodbraid Elf. I think I'd want Tarmogoyfs in an Oath list too. If playing Zenith, you can try a different 4-drop green creature as a 1-of.

As far as 4 mana Planeswalkers go, there are much better options than Arlinn Kord: Elspeth Knight-Errant, Garruk Relentless, Chandra Pyromaster, Ajani Vengeant, Gideon Ally of Zendikar...

For your manabase, I think 3 basics is too many. I went from playing 3 to 2 to 1 in Punishing Zoo. Once you're playing a bunch of utility lands like Grove, Karakas, and Wasteland Wild Nacatl becomes surprisingly hard to power up.

Thanks for the advice!

I think I'll have to test both the Oath + BBE + Goyf and GSZ lists to decide, both sound equally awesome. Hopefully I can get some games in testing before I choose which to bring to legacy night.

I was also thinking of running a Garruk instead, but I like Arlinn's set of abilities alot. She does pretty much everything, though sometimes she isn't on the right side which is an issue. I also disregarded double mana req planeswalkers mostly because every deck where I am is packing 4 wastelands and I'm afraid I'll never get to double white/red. If I wasn't as worried about that, I would definitely be playing a Gideon, he has been amazing for me in other decks so far. Wastelands are also the reason why I originally choose 3 basics, to hedge against getting my lands wasted too much. It definitely does put alot of strain on getting Nacatl online though, so I think I'll cut one (the mountain?) and see where it goes from there.

Thanks again for the help!

[Megadeus]

Poor showing and your post about Steppe Lynx inspired me to build a deck that will go 0-4 next week.

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Narnam Renegade
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Renegade Rallier
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Hooting Mandrills

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
2 Crop Rotation
3 Urza's Bauble

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain

SB: 2 Choke
3 Seal of Primordium
2 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Faerie Macabre

It's probably terrible, but Renegade Rallier with a fetch can get a steppe lynx to an 8/9. Also can get back Bauble to draw multiple cards, and I think having Deathtouch Kird Ape man is solid.

[Tokugawa]

Poor showing and your post about Steppe Lynx inspired me to build a deck that will go 0-4 next week.

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Narnam Renegade
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Renegade Rallier
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Hooting Mandrills

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
2 Crop Rotation
3 Urza's Bauble

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain

SB: 2 Choke
3 Seal of Primordium
2 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Faerie Macabre

It's probably terrible, but Renegade Rallier with a fetch can get a steppe lynx to an 8/9. Also can get back Bauble to draw multiple cards, and I think having Deathtouch Kird Ape man is solid.

Bauble with 0 Tarmogoyf and 0 Prowess creature seems does not make sense.

[Megadeus]

It's an easy revolt trigger and it can also be brought back with rallier to draw an extra card if needed. Goyf doesn't do anything in a deck where many of my creatures already don't, and prowess creatures are bad in a deck with 25 creatures.

[maharis]

The landfall plan is explosive, but I seem to lose a lot of little marginal battles. Lots of 1-2s but the wins are always hilarious and awesome. Perhaps more burn like your deck has is the right decision. I will say that people get super salty when you attack for 8 on turn 2 with crop rotation.

I would definitely consider Knight. It triggers revolt and landfall and is just randomly an 8/8 a lot of the time. With Ghor-Clan that can be a one-hit finisher.

[haganbmj]

Megadeus convinced me to play Zoo at my weekly in Florida. Made some tweaks for the local field and played this.


Stuff (27 + 16 = 43)Lands (18)Sideboard (15)
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Narnam Renegade
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Renegade Rallier
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Hooting Mandrills

3 Urza's Bauble
2 Rancor
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Pithing Needle
1 Path to Exile
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Seal of Primordium
3 Faerie Macabre

Overall the list wasn't bad. Baubles were kind of a necessary evil.

R1 - L 0-2 - Infect
R2 - W 2-0 - Goblins
R3 - W 2-0 - Lands
R4 - ID - ANT
Top 8 - W 2-1 - Stax
Top 4 Split

Infect didn't feel unwinnable with 8 pre-board removal spells. Died to EOT Crop Rotation untap double Invigorate game one, mulled to 2 game two.

I'd play it again, it was a fun deck. Not absurd, but getting to cast Ghor-Clan in legacy is always good. I wish there was a non Plated Geopede way to go deeper in on landfall.

[jaruri]

Took my updated zoo list to a new casual legacy event with half the people being new to the format, and the other half having a good amount of experience, 10 people total, and I end up going 2-1, 5-2 in games.

My list looked like this:

Main:
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Forest

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Renegade Rallier
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Wild Nacatl

1 Arlinn Kord

4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard:
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Containment Priest
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Choke
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Pithing Needle

I don't tend to write notes, but I remember the matches mostly

1st Matchup was vs GW Enchantress piloted by a new legacy player, 2-0
Game 1 was over pretty fast from a Pridemage with multiple exalted triggers and bolts to the face.
Game 2 goes on for a long time, he gets 4 enchantress draw effects on board, and starts going off. At some point he journey to nowhere's my Qasali Pridemage, and in response I use it to blow up the other journey that was holding my teeg. I go several rounds of draw-go, as he now has 3 elephant grass out, and 10+ mana. He is searching for the kill, but didn't find the card he needed until the second from last card in his deck. He then casts the Helm of Obedience, but forgot Teeg is on the field. He scoops it up, since he has no other wincons left.

2nd Matchup was vs Shardless BUG, 1-2
Game 1 again, was over pretty quick from Nacatl exalted beats and me having removal for all his creatures.
Game 2 started off well, I gain board dominance early and hold it for a few turns. I have teeg in hand and want to play around a Deluge, so I hold it. Next turn he plays Jace and a Creature, and I don't have an answer to Jace before he starts getting crazy card advantage with jace brainstorm into shardless and visions. I can't find an answer for jace, and don't have enough resources to win the game. Definitely needed to play Teeg that turn before Jace, but couldn't have known.
Game 3 got double wastelanded out of the game early on, had alot of removal but none of my lands produced red, at the end I died to 2 huge goyfs and a leovold.

3rd Matchup was vs Death and Taxes, 2-0
Game 1, I'm on the play and see I have multiple removal in hand, I play a land and pass. He plays mom go, and I p-fire the mom. I Bolt/pfire his next two plays and start deploying dudes. He gets a mirran crusader out, but I fetch the Kessig wolf run and trample over.
Game 2, My opening hand has grudge and a bolt. I bolt his turn 1 mom, and start playing a few nacatls. A few turns later, he has vials on 1 and 3, a mom and stoneforge in play with a batterskull in hand, but I'm still holding the grudge. I attack with my two nacatls, and he brings in skull, which I destroy, along with the vial on 3. My memory is pretty bad, but some turns later we get to a board state of me having a KotR, a Nacatl, and I think a Hierarch, and him having a revoker on knight, a thalia 1.0, a flickerwisp, a mirran crusader, and a jitte. I play a huntmaster and pass. He equips his crusader, and attacks with flicker and flickers his flicker, which at end step flickers my KotR until my endstep. I draw go, and on his upkeep, I shoot his revoker with huntmaster flip, find grove, and start pfiring his board. No answer to pfire and I win the round.

Also played a few games after with some other decks and got some more experience.

Loved how the deck performed. I think my main is very tight for my meta right now, but sideboard can definitely use some work. I threw it together right before the event, but I was only really able to use the grudge to good effect. Ill definitely be working on this deck some more, it seems very well suited for my rather fair meta. I feel like I might want another Taiga to fetch, maybe replacing a plateau, but I'm not sure on that yet. Arlinn Kord was great, I was able to cast her twice in the games after the event and both times she won me the game. Not sure if Garruk is better, but Arlinn seems playable at the least.

[jaruri]

Miracles is gone, time for a zoo comeback?

[Richard Cheese]

Miracles is gone, time for a zoo comeback?

As much as I would love it, you have to remember that Zoo was already hurting pretty bad before Terminus was a thing. Stoneblade had Batterskull + 8 Swords, and I wouldn't be surprised if that deck just comes back with a couple Terminus in it, since it's still by far the best sweeper available.

[CptHaddock]

As much as I would love it, you have to remember that Zoo was already hurting pretty bad before Terminus was a thing. Stoneblade had Batterskull + 8 Swords, and I wouldn't be surprised if that deck just comes back with a couple Terminus in it, since it's still by far the best sweeper available.

Traditional zoo is probably never coming back but I think that big zoo might have some merit now that miracles is gone. You're basically just a maverick deck but instead of playing a toolbox strategy you just play a bunch of removal spells.

[silly]

I'm pretty sure traditional zoo is long gone at this point. The dominance of Miracles was not what killed zoo. Zoo died when Delver of Secrets was printed.

Why play a traditional aggro deck like zoo anymore, when Delver can be just as explosive in the opening turns while also being more prepared to interact with your opponent and more reliable due to cantrips smoothing your draws?

[Claymore]

Difference between BR and UB Reanimator. BR is faster, more explosive, and better than UB - despite countermagic and card smoothing.

In aggro terms, a higher threat density in Zoo can work so that when your one creature is answered you don't just fold - as is what happened when Delver's creatures were dealt with by Terminus/Swords. Maverick shits all over Delver and I expect the same thing with Zoo.

An aggro big Zoo could do well against BUG and Leovold decks, I'd say. Don't need to target anything when you can just wall them off with Goyfs or smash through with a channeled +4/+4 Trample Knight over TNN.

[Hanni]

Why play traditional or big Zoo when hyper aggressive decks like Burn, Ru Sligh, and UR Delver are better against most of the format? What matchups would being creature heavy improve?

Let's not forget that Zoo doesn't have the tools to deal with combo decks without ruining the matchups that Zoo is supposed to be good against.

[zulander]

As mentioned, big zoo is where it would be at. Here's my mock up list although I haven't played legacy in roughly 2 years due to hating Miracles.

Here's a quick list I put together:

Mana:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Wasteland
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Creatures:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Loxodon Smiter

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Path to Exile
1 Sylvan Library
3 Collected Company

[CptHaddock]

Why play traditional or big Zoo when hyper aggressive decks like Burn, Ru Sligh, and UR Delver are better against most of the format? What matchups would being creature heavy improve?

Let's not forget that Zoo doesn't have the tools to deal with combo decks without ruining the matchups that Zoo is supposed to be good against.

Don't all these variants have the same problem with dealing with combo decks that Zoo does? I guess UR and maybe Sligh are less contenders but if you draw the burn half your deck you just autoconcede the match?

As far as Zoo goes now that terminus is out of the format the biggest draw is that it can't be completely hated out of the format.


As mentioned, big zoo is where it would be at. Here's my mock up list although I haven't played legacy in roughly 2 years due to hating Miracles.

Here's a quick list I put together:

Mana:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Wasteland
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Creatures:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Loxodon Smiter

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Path to Exile
1 Sylvan Library
3 Collected Company

I recently played against a zoo list playing collected company and it completely caught me off guard. I'd also be interested in seeing if lists like Shawn Yu's (Lordofthepit23's) lists (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5866&d=234059&f=LE)from 2013 hold any weight now.

[zulander]

Don't all these variants have the same problem with dealing with combo decks that Zoo does? I guess UR and maybe Sligh are less contenders but if you draw the burn half your deck you just autoconcede the match?

As far as Zoo goes now that terminus is out of the format the biggest draw is that it can't be completely hated out of the format.



I recently played against a zoo list playing collected company and it completely caught me off guard. I'd also be interested in seeing if lists like Shawn Yu's (Lordofthepit23's) lists (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5866&d=234059&f=LE)from 2013 hold any weight now.

I've been playing Naya Company in Modern to some great success over the past few years, and feel that it could do well in Legacy as well. I think one of two versions of Zoo would be great depending on the metagame to come out of the top ban. A big zoo variant such as I posted above, or a second, faster gruul version with the following core:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eidolon of Great Revel
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager

4 lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Sulfuric Vortex

This is a more straight up strategy that relies on game changers in the form of Eidolon and Vortex, while forcing a super fast and aggressive start.

[Richard Cheese]

Anyone messed with Lifecrafter's Bestiary? Triggers on cast so you get the draw even if your dude gets countered, and scry 1 every turn isn't too shabby. Possibly better in Big Zoo where you're more likely to have the extra mana.

[zulander]

Anyone messed with Lifecrafter's Bestiary? Triggers on cast so you get the draw even if your dude gets countered, and scry 1 every turn isn't too shabby. Possibly better in Big Zoo where you're more likely to have the extra mana.

I'd have to think Domri is just a bit better.

After some brainstorming I think I'll run this big zoo list at next lgs tournament:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Path to Exile

2 Domri Rade
1 Sylvan Library

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
2 Wasteland
1 Skarrg, the Rage Pits
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Taiga
2 Plateau


I'd have to think that BBE might be better than Company in order to hit more spells and board cards. BBE into Domri is great on turn 3 and can usually just seal the game with its value.

[ironclad8690]

Darth Vader voice: I find your lack of Thalia disturbing....

Seriously though, I think if you want your zoo deck to be competitive, you have to have some form of maindeck combo hate.

Zenith for Teeg, Thalia, DRS, Knight-> Karakas are all fairly easy to include (DRS maybe not so much).

Here is what I might run:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor
23

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
15

2 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 GW manland, can't remember name.

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Containment Priest
2 Choke
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Electrickery

[zulander]

The land you're looking for is Stirring Wildwood.

You're right, I'm actually deciding between Thalia or Spirit of the Labyrinth. I do feel that your list is more of a Naya Maverick list though.

[Richard Cheese]

I'd have to think Domri is just a bit better.

One big upside of Domri is that he basically doubles as removal. Still, Bestiary has the potential to draw multiple cards in a turn, and helps smooth out your draws every turn regardless of what you do. I don't really have Zoo put together at the moment, I'd be interested to see some testing with a list like yours just swapping one for the other. It's still a 3-mana card that doesn't have any immediate impact, so it may just be too slow/not aggressive enough for this deck. Library performs a pretty similar function for cheaper as well.

[Seraphix]

Played Zoo for the first time since the banning last night. List:

Creatures (21)
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

Noncreature Spells (17)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
1 Sylvan Library
1 Chandra, Pyromaster

Land (22)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
2 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Wasteland
1 Skarrg, the Rage Pits

SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless


Matches were:
Eldrazi (W 2-0)
Elves (W 2-0)
Grixis Control (D 1-1)
UB Midrange/Control (W 2-1)

Skarrg, the Rage pits was MVP all night and is probably better than Wolf Run right now since the point of toughness lets you attack through TNN more profitably.

[bigwerdz]

I'm working on building Naya zoo with knights and wonder how it's combo match ups feel. Zoo was essentially out of the format before I started playing legacy. Are we just trying to race or should we be boarding in a ton of cards? Thanks for any insight.

[Kanti]

Played Zoo for the first time since the banning last night. List:

Creatures (21)
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

Noncreature Spells (17)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
1 Sylvan Library
1 Chandra, Pyromaster

Land (22)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
2 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Wasteland
1 Skarrg, the Rage Pits

SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless


Matches were:
Eldrazi (W 2-0)
Elves (W 2-0)
Grixis Control (D 1-1)
UB Midrange/Control (W 2-1)

Skarrg, the Rage pits was MVP all night and is probably better than Wolf Run right now since the point of toughness lets you attack through TNN more profitably.

Jamming DRS into that thing over the Hierach seems like a stronger plan. At the very least some 3/1 split so you can GSZ->DRS if you need it.

[smutko]

Fast zoo seems much more appealing to me. Something with enough removal to keep a delver deck from ever getting ahead and enough mana efficiency to make cantripping seem like a waste of time, daze a joke, and never let them trade up on mana. Then just jam some hatebears for the combo matchups and more hateful bullets in the sideboard and call it a day.
I don't think I'd want to face maverick or endearing with this but it feels like the metagame is all underground seas and maybe some nettle sentinels at the moment.

What about something like:

20 lands
4 wooded foothills
4 arid mesa
2 windswept Heath
3 plateau
2 taiga
1 savannah
3 mountain
1 plains

24 dudes
4 wild nacatl
4 kird ape
3 goblin guide
2 loam lion
2 grim lavamancer
4 eidolon of the great revel
3 Thalia guardian of thraben
2 spirit of the lab

16 spells
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
2 path to exile
2 searing blaze
2 price of progress
1 Atarkas command
1 fireblast

SB (unsure on numbers)
Surgical extraction
RIP
REB
mindbreak trap
Destructive revelry
Path to exile
Price of progress
Containment priest
Phyrexian revoker

[bigwerdz]

I played something similar to that at a 5 round weekly. My list was:

19 Lands:
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Mountain
11 red fetch

22 creatures:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Grim Lavamancer

19 Spells:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Atarkas Command
2 Mutagenic Growth
2 Searing Blaze
2 Fireblast
1 Price of Progress

SB:
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Price of Progress
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sylvan Library
2 Path to Exile

I went 4-1 losing to nicfit and beating lands twice, reanimator (RB), and Czech Pile. It was very fast. I came to the list by just porting over what I play in modern whenever I get suckered into playing modern. Replaced shocks with duals and bad spells with better ones. I didn't know how the SB should look so I grabbed 2 of's and things I didn't have room in the main for.

[Curby]

Nothing too useful to add besides being glad that fast Zoo is still being looked at. I do worry a bit that we're verging on Goyfless Goyf sligh, which never had mid-game endurance and was too reliant on an explosive start in the first few turns. Hopefully Eidolons and Lavamancers are enough to finish off an opponent. I've always loved 1-2 Fireblasts in Zoo for reach, but worry that Thalia Taxes us too dearly, especially in burn-heavy lists. Any thoughts on the dis-synergy there?

[tescrin]

I think swapping Nacatl and Mutagenic for Goyf and Ghor-Clan seems good. Maybe one Command for a second Price since it's a blowout against a lot of decks. Goyf is a bigger deal here than normal due to you having Enchants ripe for the grave via Eidolon. Goyf will regularly thusly be bigger than Anglers. Further, Ghor-clan gives trample, making it a brutal finisher as you swing for 9 trample into their TNN.

[Curby]

Wow, why are you so interested in dropping Nacatl? It'd be among the last 1-drops for me to get rid of.

[bigwerdz]

Like I said I haven't tested in legacy much but my modern experience says goyfs is too slow. You want more bodies in play. I agree that in legacy there might should be some number of ghor-clans. Damage based removal is more prevalent in modern then legacy so the mutagenic growths can probably go.

[Curby]

Over on the Miracles thread they're still gleefully casting Termini and winning MTGO events 5-0 with it, and that's the card that previously put Zoo entirely out of commission, especially fast variants. Like I said I want to play fast Zoo when I play Zoo, but all-in deck designs have their problems too. I'm really wondering if Goyf is too slow, or if there's room in the deck for a 2-drop beater.

EDIT: Perhaps countertop was the real problem, not Terminus?

[hymnyou]

Over on the Miracles thread they're still gleefully casting Termini and winning MTGO events 5-0 with it, and that's the card that previously put Zoo entirely out of commission, especially fast variants. Like I said I want to play fast Zoo when I play Zoo, but all-in deck designs have their problems too. I'm really wondering if Goyf is too slow, or if there's room in the deck for a 2-drop beater.

EDIT: Perhaps countertop was the real problem, not Terminus?

You can play around terminus, countertop was what locked the whole thing down with terminus. I think right now they are feasting on players dumping their hands not expecting terminus due to the ban. The matchup overall is much better, just dont over extend and have something that deals with tokens/wincon (ratchet bomb maybe) for mentor or entreat. Outside of that is Jace, red blast in SB seems good now. This doesn't mean the deck is good but I'll run some variant again soon at the locals.

[smutko]

I played a few leagues with my proposed list above to fairly mediocre results. I basically felt like a worse delver deck, where instead of being rewarded for more "stuff" and less "fluff" I was just punished for my inability to keep 1-landers or brainstorm away excess lands later in the game. In general it felt like the theorycrafting was correct in that the 2/3s for 1 lined up well against the general delver plan but just playing off the top with no ability to do anything about drawing the wrong half of the deck felt bad. Going forward I'd probably cut the goblin guides, and maybe sprints of the lab. I did not find Thalia's effect too onerous on my game plan. I agree that goyf would be great in the right matchups but I also wanted my 2-drops to effect more than the battlefield and I enjoyed boarding in Rest In Peace against the drs-goyf decks... up to personal preference I think. My minimal experience against the new miracles lists wasn't getting crushed by a timely terminus so much as getting ground out in a long game where they were ripping through their deck with cantrips to have answers for everything while I just drew my 1 card for turn and crossed my fingers.

[bigwerdz]

I went 4-1 with the zoo list I posted a few weeks ago this past Thursday. I lost to pox and beat ub reanimator X2, affinity, and the bant leovold deck. A fast clock and having atarkas command to skullcrack when Gristlebrand attacks worked well.

[Kanti]

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierach
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Gurmang Angler
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger

4 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plow
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Painful Truths
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Lilianna of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

lands: not even gonna pretend like i know how to make a mana-base.

What do you guys think of this base? Can replace the PFire with Bolts of course, but I wanted some extra "free" CA. x3 Painful Truths in there to cycle through your deck, Knight gets Grove+utility lands, singleton Scryb Ranger over the 4th Goyf to pull DRS+KotR tricks and block Delver all day, and mama Elspeth as I can't think of another 4cc spell to slot in here. Basically got the deck from the first Modern PT finals and replaced some cards.

edit: my brain is telling me Lilliana is better than Elspeth. Also, no x2 Jitte anywhere has to be a mistake, right? Updated with an SB I thought could be decent.

sb:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Engineered Plague
2 Choke
2 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
1 REB
1 Pyroblast

[maharis]

I feel like playing something wacky/stupid tonight. Should it be landfall depths zoo?

Land (23)
2x Dark Depths
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Plateau
3x Savannah
2x Taiga
2x Thespian's Stage
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills

Creature (21)
3x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Plated Geopede
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Renegade Rallier
4x Steppe Lynx
4x Tarmogoyf

Instant (10)
3x Berserk
3x Crop Rotation
4x Lightning Bolt

Sorcery (2)
2x Green Sun's Zenith

Enchantment (2)
2x Sylvan Library

Planeswalker (2)
2x Domri Rade

[tescrin]

Berserks should just be Ghor Clans unfortunately. For 1-more mana, it produces a reliable result on any dude and doesn't kill your dude, which could be relevant. Making a noble attack for 5 is better than the occasional doubling of exalted triggers IMO.

[maharis]

Berserks should just be Ghor Clans unfortunately. For 1-more mana, it produces a reliable result on any dude and doesn't kill your dude, which could be relevant. Making a noble attack for 5 is better than the occasional doubling of exalted triggers IMO.

T1 Lynx, T2 fetch, croprotation for fetch, berserk is 16 trample damage. It's a glass cannon but it's a fun glass cannon. If you have a bolt and they used a fetchland it's game over.

I built an Oath of Nissa-focused zoo deck last night with max Ghor-Clan, since it can be found with Oath, that I may also play. I'm not against the card, but I'm in it to berserk some 8/9 cats tonight.

[Curby]

Give it a shot, but you're depending on a lot of 3-of cards to make that happen on turn-2. I'd run full playsets if you want to be a combo deck. Also check out Temur Battle Rage, and Groundswell over Bolt. If you're gonna go landfall, go landfall. If you're gonna go glass cannon, go glass cannon. All those Libraries and Planeswalkers make me think you care about turn 4 and beyond more than you claim you do.

[Winter9]

I first got into Legacy when someone leant me Zoo. I decided I had to build it, but with the Taigas and Plateau and Goyfs it took years and I built The Gate in the meanwhile which I upgraded to Pikula/Abzan midrange. I still play Abzan Midrange and I also have Zoo fully built now. Even though not the best decks in the format both are a blast to play. Sharing my Zoo list which I'm still working on to this day. I haven't actually tested the Ghor Clan yet, but it seems crazy good for breaking the goyf stalls and for catching them buy aurprise.

I cut one Thalia to make room for a second Ghor Clan. Three seems like the correct number. Do you guys agree? I drew quite some second bad Thalia's in a tournament in the weekend.


Also worth mentioning although many think Kird Ape is too slow it's a card I'm not willing to cut. I got them that weekend I first played Legacy and I love them a lot.

My list:

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Path to Exile

3 Plateau (Should probably try to get another Taiga and switch wth a plateau or savannah. Got them because they were cheap)
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Sideboard as of today:

2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Celestial Flare
1 Pyroclasm
1 Karakas
1 Maze of ith

Had an hilarious time casting Celestial Flare last weekend. He attacked with his Mirran Crusader with Jitte attached. I play it, he looks at it and laughs and says "didn't play around that one". It's more there for the True Name and for Sneak and Show, but it was fun and very good to catch the crusader.
Even more funny was he actually did play around it the next time he attacked and attacked with a stoneforge mystic too :laugh:

[Curby]

You're skirting the edge between small Zoo (Apes and Guides) and big Zoo (Knights). FWIW the most successful decks these days are big zoo, but I understand the desire to go old school with Apes. I've got a small Zoo list sleeved but I don't really play it in events.

Anyway, I think Guides and Thalias might be a good choice for cuts if you need room: I'm trying Eidolon of the Great Revel instead of Thalia for disrupting opposing spells.

I also love Sylvan Library in any Zoo deck. You generally drop it turn 4 or so to ensure mid-game card selection and card advantage if your life allows it.

You might also consider running a GSZ package. This allows you to get rid of Ooze #2 which isn't a wonderful way to fill a second slot, and you can add a Dryad Arbor for first turn acceleration if desired. GSZ is also a shuffle effect for Library.

Many decks also run a Punishing Fire package, which you can consider instead of the Chain Lightnings since you only need minimal land investment given you're running Knights.

Just some ideas.

EDIT: Sejiri Steppe makes more sense in a big Zoo deck where you have fewer, but more important, creatures. Overall Karakas might be a better choice in the main. Bojuka Bog is also a common choice for land toolboxes, and might be worth a sideboard slot.

[Mr. Safety]

I always wanted to see what Domri Rade could do in Legacy zoo. Its in the mana efficiency range (3 mana) and it can be a great source of card advantage, especially in a fair metagame where the fight activation does a lot of work (Goyf/Knight killing lots of stuff.)

[Megadeus]

Last time I played Zoo he was very good for me. Got to ultimate him against a Humility deck and go nuts with a Ghor Clan

[Winter9]

You're skirting the edge between small Zoo (Apes and Guides) and big Zoo (Knights). FWIW the most successful decks these days are big zoo, but I understand the desire to go old school with Apes. I've got a small Zoo list sleeved but I don't really play it in events.

Anyway, I think Guides and Thalias might be a good choice for cuts if you need room: I'm trying Eidolon of the Great Revel instead of Thalia for disrupting opposing spells.

I also love Sylvan Library in any Zoo deck. You generally drop it turn 4 or so to ensure mid-game card selection and card advantage if your life allows it.

You might also consider running a GSZ package. This allows you to get rid of Ooze #2 which isn't a wonderful way to fill a second slot, and you can add a Dryad Arbor for first turn acceleration if desired. GSZ is also a shuffle effect for Library.

Many decks also run a Punishing Fire package, which you can consider instead of the Chain Lightnings since you only need minimal land investment given you're running Knights.

Just some ideas.

EDIT: Sejiri Steppe makes more sense in a big Zoo deck where you have fewer, but more important, creatures. Overall Karakas might be a better choice in the main. Bojuka Bog is also a common choice for land toolboxes, and might be worth a sideboard slot.


Thanks for the suggestions :) I do think I'm close to the list I want to run. Pikula is my main deck in Legacy so in Zoo I'' not only interested in playing just the best build if it means cutting pet cards. I will consider the punishing fire though. Bojuka Bog is not run simply because we have little dredge. During five/six years of legacy I've met it once.

I do think going big zoo is stronger, but it's not what I enjoy so that's why it's this slightly weird mix;)

I really like thalia though. I have played Revel online, but he creates some akward land positions.

:)

[Seraphix]

I played Zoo in the SCG Legacy Classic yesterday and got 15th place. (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=117018) There were around 120 players. List:

Creature Spells (20)
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Wild Nacatl
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Voice of Resurgence
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar

Noncreature Spells (17)
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Punishing Fire
1x Sylvan Library

Lands (23)
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
2x Savannah
2x Taiga
2x Plateau
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
2x Wasteland

SB: 3x Surgical Extraction
SB: 1x Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2x Pyroblast
SB: 1x Wear / Tear
SB: 1x Reclamation Sage
SB: 2x Crop Rotation
SB: 2x Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1x Bojuka Bog
SB: 1x Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1x Chandra Pyromaster


Tournament went as follows:

Round 1: Canadian Threshold (2-1)
Round 2: Czech Pile (2-1)
Round 3: Death & Taxes (2-1)
Round 4: Aggro Loam (1-2)
Round 5: Czech Pile (2-0)
Round 6: Sneak & Show (0-2)
Round 7: Grixis Control (2-0)
Final Record: 5-2

The only bad matchup I encountered was Sneak & Show, which I regrettably punted a winnable game 1 against.


I hadn't played this deck for a few months and made a several changes to the maindeck based on how the new meta has shaped up:


1. Replaced 3rd QPM with Voice --> Voice is very good vs Czech Pile & Grixis Delver

2. Replaced Elspeth/Chandra with 4th Fire --> Fire is great right now, especially in game 1

3. Replaced Skarrg with Wasteland #2 --> Skarrg is best in matchups we're already fine in, Wasteland has more utility overall

I honestly didn't put enough thought into the sideboard, which is functionally the same sideboard I play in Maverick. In hindsight this wasn't optimal and I would play a different sideboard next time.

[Hanni]

I played Zoo in the SCG Legacy Classic yesterday and got 15th place. (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=117018) There were around 120 players. List:

Creature Spells (20)
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Wild Nacatl
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Voice of Resurgence
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar

Noncreature Spells (17)
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Punishing Fire
1x Sylvan Library

Lands (23)
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
2x Savannah
2x Taiga
2x Plateau
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
2x Wasteland

SB: 3x Surgical Extraction
SB: 1x Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2x Pyroblast
SB: 1x Wear / Tear
SB: 1x Reclamation Sage
SB: 2x Crop Rotation
SB: 2x Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1x Bojuka Bog
SB: 1x Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1x Chandra Pyromaster


Tournament went as follows:

Round 1: Canadian Threshold (2-1)
Round 2: Czech Pile (2-1)
Round 3: Death & Taxes (2-1)
Round 4: Aggro Loam (1-2)
Round 5: Czech Pile (2-0)
Round 6: Sneak & Show (0-2)
Round 7: Grixis Control (2-0)
Final Record: 5-2

The only bad matchup I encountered was Sneak & Show, which I regrettably punted a winnable game 1 against.


I hadn't played this deck for a few months and made a several changes to the maindeck based on how the new meta has shaped up:


1. Replaced 3rd QPM with Voice --> Voice is very good vs Czech Pile & Grixis Delver

2. Replaced Elspeth/Chandra with 4th Fire --> Fire is great right now, especially in game 1

3. Replaced Skarrg with Wasteland #2 --> Skarrg is best in matchups we're already fine in, Wasteland has more utility overall

I honestly didn't put enough thought into the sideboard, which is functionally the same sideboard I play in Maverick. In hindsight this wasn't optimal and I would play a different sideboard next time.

Any reason for Swords to Plowshares over Path to Exile?

[Fatal]

Any reason for Swords to Plowshares over Path to Exile?
Triggering fire and is nobo with wastelands?

[Hanni]

Triggering fire and is nobo with wastelands?

Hadn't thought about the synergy with Fire, although with only 2 Wasteland, the non-bo there seems less relevant than the non-bo of giving the opponent life in a deck playing Wild Nacatl.

[Seraphix]

Hadn't thought about the synergy with Fire, although with only 2 Wasteland, the non-bo there seems less relevant than the non-bo of giving the opponent life in a deck playing Wild Nacatl.

As Fatal pointed out, the primary reason to play Swords to Plowshares in this build is its interaction with Punishing Fire. It's more of a midrange deck than a classic aggro deck so the life gain isn't as relevant. In a list without Punishing Fire, I would probably prefer to play Path.

[Hanni]

As Fatal pointed out, the primary reason to play Swords to Plowshares in this build is its interaction with Punishing Fire. It's more of a midrange deck than a classic aggro deck so the life gain isn't as relevant. In a list without Punishing Fire, I would probably prefer to play Path.

Makes sense, but it makes me question Wild Nacatl. I mean, if you cut Nacatl for Mother of Runes, all of a sudden the deck looks like a Punishing Maverick deck...

Aside from being able to call the deck Zoo, what benefit does Nacatl provide over Mother of Runes?

[11poster925]

Makes sense, but it makes me question Wild Nacatl. I mean, if you cut Nacatl for Mother of Runes, all of a sudden the deck looks like a Punishing Maverick deck...

Aside from being able to call the deck Zoo, what benefit does Nacatl provide over Mother of Runes?

the nacatl is an aggressive threat with heavy exalted status. its not a stoneblade maverick deck presses more with hierarch & knight of the reliquary top end. looks dope, how about some fireblasts? :]

[Hanni]

the nacatl is an aggressive threat with heavy exalted status. its not a stoneblade maverick deck presses more with hierarch & knight of the reliquary top end. looks dope, how about some fireblasts? :]

Okay, legit answer. Exalted Nacatl does sound pretty good.

Deck looks super soft to combo g1. I'm not sure Gaddock Teeg does enough on his own. Improving the combo matchup seems pretty simple to do postboard with hatebears, though.

[juzamjimjams]

Anybody got the list that made it on cam at EW?

[Seraphix]

Makes sense, but it makes me question Wild Nacatl. I mean, if you cut Nacatl for Mother of Runes, all of a sudden the deck looks like a Punishing Maverick deck...

Aside from being able to call the deck Zoo, what benefit does Nacatl provide over Mother of Runes?

The reason to play this deck over Punishing Maverick is that it has a better matchup against Grixis Delver and Czech Pile-style decks.

Maverick is a slow, synergy-based strategy that can be effectively combatted by efficient disruption out of these decks. Its also vulnerable to cards which have become prevalent like Kolaghan's Command, Liliana the Last Hope (starting to appear in maindecks), and Izzet Staticaster.

Zoo has more individually threatening cards and can match these decks on the efficiency axis with a 1-mana threat in Wild Nacatl and additional 1-mana interaction in Lightning Bolt. Nacatl is seriously great against these decks. Tarmogoyf has fallen out of favor so Wild Nacatl is almost always the biggest creature around. Against Delver its very realistic to race without drawing any interaction, which Maverick can almost never do. You're also less vulnerable to sweepers since you can present a decent clock with fewer creatures.


Okay, legit answer. Exalted Nacatl does sound pretty good.

Deck looks super soft to combo g1. I'm not sure Gaddock Teeg does enough on his own. Improving the combo matchup seems pretty simple to do postboard with hatebears, though.

The game 1 combo matchups aren't great. But aside from Gaddock Teeg, Scavenging Ooze, Qasali Pridemage, and Knight --> Wasteland/Karakas all do some amount of lifting against various combo decks. There is also the possibility of killing them before they can kill you which is facilitated by Bolt.

[IamHANDSOME]

Is Zoo actually still a living deck in 1.5? Delver just pushed this deck out of the meta over the years. I personally think if you build an aggressive but consistent build you're still better than most of the fair decks. Just against the unfair ones you probably get smashed. Atleast against Storm you have Eidolon main now. As I mentioned in an other thread I played this deck for 2 years back in 2009-2010 in 1.5 and Extended (nowadays Modern). With consistent I mean cards like Steppe Lynx and Vexing Devil do not belong there. For Steppe Lynx existed a dedicated Boros list. Even Goblin Guide was never the first choice for Zoo since you could not afford to give the opponents CA like in Burn where it really doesnt matter since Burn is even faster and more aggressive than Zoo. I would love to play this deck again, I am thinking about something like this:

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
3-4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Tarmogoyf
2-3 Qasali Pridemage
1-2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2-3 Lightning Helix
2-3 Price of Progress
1-2 Fireblast
1-2 Atarka's Command
1-2 Sylvan Library
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest

White is being splashed for Pridemage, Helix and Knight and a couple of Path to Exile in the board. I do like Eidolon main since he can win against Storm which was Zoos worst matchup I remember. Sometimes 1-2 Turn until he gets removed preboard could be good enough to close it out with Nacatl and Burn spells. 2-3 Pridemage main are also something you will need preboard against D&T, Stoneblade and a Chalice of the Void. These cards just destroy Zoo otherwise. I also like Helix since it can be good in mirror matches and against Burn, also you will need it sometimes for racing a Delver, 2-3 could be played. Furthermore Helix has good synergy with Sylvan Library since you can digg more easily with it. Atarka's Command is again a good addition for Rgx creature because it pumps up and makes 3 damage additionally. Youll play 1-2 of them. The rest are standard Burn spells, 4 Bolt and normally 4 Chain are something I always want to have. The rest I splitted up in 3 PoP and 2 Blasts, you will never cast more than 2 Blast in Zoo so 1-3 should be played, depends how aggressive you want to play the build.

I could also imagine to cut the Helix, Pridemage, and Knight for 4 Goblin Guides and making the deck Rg with the white splash only for a 3/3 Nacatl and 2-3 Path to Exile in the board (pretty important card against Reanimator I guess). List would look more like this:

2-3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
2-3 Atarka's Command
1 Sylvan Library
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
2 Pleteau
2 Mountain
1 Forest

What I dislike about this list is the missing Savannah. I know the "dream draw" of Zoo was and will always be T1 Nacatl and 2 more Nacatl T2. Problem with that is you need double green which is only possible with Taiga and Savannah.

Are there any Zoo players out there and what are your current experiences with it? How does the deck perform against all the Delver builds and 4c control builds?

[Megadeus]

I think if you want a fast zoo list right now you want Ghor Clan Rampager and Narnham Renegades

[Barachai]

I played Zoo in the SCG Legacy Classic yesterday and got 15th place. (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=117018)
I honestly didn't put enough thought into the sideboard, which is functionally the same sideboard I play in Maverick. In hindsight this wasn't optimal and I would play a different sideboard next time.

Can you elaborate on how you'd change the sideboard?

[Seraphix]

Can you elaborate on how you'd change the sideboard?

I'd consider going down to 1 Crop Rotation, or cutting both Crop Rotations and Bojuka Bog entirely. I'm not sure Crop Rotation is powerful and flexible enough with only Bog, Karakas, and Wasteland as your main targets. Generally, I only play 2 Crop Rotation side in a deck that also has Stage/Depths main.

If cutting 1 Crop Rotation, I'd replace it with either a 3rd Canonist, Thalia GoT, or Phyrexian Revoker. If further cutting the 2nd Crop Rotation and Bog, I'd most likely replace these with 2 Blood Moons.

I'd also consider reconfiguring to an Enlightened Tutor sideboard including at least Grafdigger's Cage, Phyrexian Revoker, Canonist, and Blood Moon.

[Megadeus]

BMJHagan went undefeated and split finals of top 8 with a Steppe Lynx Bauble list today. Pretty sick. Breathing life into the best deck in the format

[haganbmj]

My Cradles are out getting signed, UR Delver was boring, I didn't want to borrow Mono-U Show and Tell from Megadeus, so I played this again at a legacy monthly.

Stuff (27 + 15 = 42)Lands (18)Sideboard (15)
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Narnam Renegade
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Renegade Rallier
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager

4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Black Vise
1 Rancor
1 Forked Bolt
3 Pyroblast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Containment Priest
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Hooting Mandrills

R1 - W - 2-1 - Mostly Green Eureka w/ Chalice
R2 - W - 2-1 - UWR Stoneblade
R3 - W - 2-0 - BUG Delver
R4 - ID - WR Death and Taxes

Top 8 - W - 2-0 - Maverick w/ Leovold
Top 4 - W - 2-1 - Jund
Finals - ID - WR Death and Taxes

- Smash came up against Stoneblade by killing a Batterskull before blocks.
- Double Steppe Lynx with 3 fetches was backbreaking against Maverick.
- Sideboard is way, way, way off.
- Basic Mountain might be better off as a Plateau?

[Xod]

Congratz!

Any thoughts about what to change in the sideboard?

I like the black vise against control decks.

[zebhillard]

Top 4 - W - 2-1 - Jund

Damn that Rancor'd Ape, damn it straight to hell!

But yes, I still support -Mountain, +Plateau.

[haganbmj]

Damn that Rancor'd Ape, damn it straight to hell!

But yes, I still support -Mountain, +Plateau.

https://i.imgur.com/TH92kev.jpg

As for the sideboard I don't really know. The Vise/Rancor/Forked Bolt were just there because I had them and I always sleeve a Rancor when I can. Forked Bolt is probably fine if you expect D&T and Deathrite decks. I do think I want a Hooting Mandrils in the mainboard, it's very solid in the way that playing Gurmag is in modern Death's Shadow. It's possible this deck could get away with a couple, but I don't want to hamper the Goyfs much.
Faerie Macabre was to avoid conflicts with Thalia, but that's debatable too.

[zebhillard]

I do think I want a Hooting Mandrils in the mainboard, it's very solid in the way that playing Gurmag is in modern Death's Shadow. It's possible this deck could get away with a couple, but I don't want to hamper the Goyfs much. Faerie Macabre was to avoid conflicts with Thalia, but that's debatable too.

Macabre is fine. There was an odd shortage of the random reanimators that usually show up. I think 1-of Mandrills would be good in the main, you could even trim a Goyf for it so the issue crops up less frequently. The miser's Gaddock Teeg looks a little off without a GSZ to fetch it, though.

[Curby]

@haganbmj What's the purpose of the single Teeg? The chances of randomly finding it at the right time is very low. I usually see Teeg in Zoo with GSZ.

[haganbmj]

@haganbmj What's the purpose of the single Teeg? The chances of randomly finding it at the right time is very low. I usually see Teeg in Zoo with GSZ.

Same as the single Karakas, it made me feel like I was at least trying to have answers to stuff.

[Curby]

Yeah, that follows. I usually see Karakas with Knights in big Zoo, but overall your low-to-the-ground build is much more my speed. Thanks for sharing!

[zulander]

The tough question I'm facing is if I'm not playing small Zoo, which spell is best to build Zoo around, GSZ or BBE? Here's the BBE version I ran recently:

//creatures 28
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage

//spells 11
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
2 Path to Exile
1 Sylvan Library

//lands 21
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Wasteland
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Karakas

//sideboard 15
1 Electrickery
1 Path to Exile
1 Forked Bolt
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Chain Lightning

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Blood Moon
2 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Grafdigger's Cage

[Seraphix]

The tough question I'm facing is if I'm not playing small Zoo, which spell is best to build Zoo around, GSZ or BBE? Here's the BBE version I ran recently:

//creatures 28
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage

//spells 11
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
2 Path to Exile
1 Sylvan Library

//lands 21
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Wasteland
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Karakas

//sideboard 15
1 Electrickery
1 Path to Exile
1 Forked Bolt
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Chain Lightning

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Blood Moon
2 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Grafdigger's Cage


For Big Zoo, I think GSZ is significantly better than BBE. GSZ is a stronger consistency tool and the ability to tutor for creatures is invaluable in Legacy.

I do like your list though - curious to know how it fares.

There is definitely an incentive to play Big Zoo right now as it can be built to have favorable matchups against the format's best decks, Grixis Delver and Czech Pile.

[Megadeus]

BBE against the bunch of miracles decks seems good. But GSZ for Teeg is also good against them. I think I'm in the BBE train though

[zulander]

There is definitely an incentive to play Big Zoo right now as it can be built to have favorable matchups against the format's best decks, Grixis Delver and Czech Pile.

Can confirm, without surgical they cannot beat the card Punishing Fire.

[zulander]

I haven't played legacy in a while so when I went to weekly legacy the other night I did pretty terrible not knowing the meta. I underestimated the Moon Stompy matchup, so I think By Force is going to find its way to the board. The mana is definitely awkward so that's going to just take more reps with the deck to figure out.

[zulander]

Gonna try a more "value town" version of the deck. Nacatl was fine, but doesn't present a problem that SFM could, so without further ado:


4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavening Ooze
1 Tireless Tracker

4 Punishing Fire
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Sylvan Library
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

[Megadeus]

I miss zoo. I hope you're successful. I don't know if SFM is the answer considering KCommand, but it's worth a shot. I still think a build with heavy burn emphasis and maybe even probes to delve out fast mandrills is good, but maybe I'm delusional

[Mr. Safety]

I miss zoo. I hope you're successful. I don't know if SFM is the answer considering KCommand, but it's worth a shot. I still think a build with heavy burn emphasis and maybe even probes to delve out fast mandrills is good, but maybe I'm delusional

I think that could be really good. I like the idea of Mandrils as a 4/4 trampler for G. I honestly think that something that gets a big, unfair blast of cheap creatures could really pressure the fair decks, like Burning-Tree Emissary and others.

Maybe something like this:

4x Wild Nacatl
4x Goblin Guide
3x Steppe Lynx
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
4x Hidden Herbalists
4x Reckless Bushwhacker
3x Hooting Mandrills

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Manamorphose
4x Gitaxian Probe

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Arid Mesa
4x Windswept Heath
2x Taiga
1x Savannah
1x Plateau
1x Forest
1x Mountain


It looks modern-ish, but that isn't a terrible thing. It's all in on agro with 8 bolts. Not sure what would be better as far as burn goes. Sideboard could be loaded with anti-combo like Mindbreak Traps, Gaddock Teeg, Grafdigger's Cage.

[zulander]

I miss zoo. I hope you're successful. I don't know if SFM is the answer considering KCommand, but it's worth a shot. I still think a build with heavy burn emphasis and maybe even probes to delve out fast mandrills is good, but maybe I'm delusional

it was actually great. I lived the dream of BBE into SFM, which was gas. I beat Leovold BUG 2-0 and Burn 2-1, lost to UW 0-2 because of a ton of misplays on my part, but that's the tax I have to pay getting back into legacy and various interactions.

[maharis]

You know, the more I think about the impact on the format from not having so many Striges and early TNNs... I think aggro decks could actually come back. Combo will be a bugaboo -- but the fair matchups should be pretty good for Naya.

[zulander]

What's the meta going to be like now?

[Megadeus]

I'm thinking of coming back to a Big Zoo build. I think in a world where I feel Show and Tell Makes a resurgence I want to be on Knight of the Reliquary.

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares (Maybe even could just be chain lightning?)
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas

Might be too midrangey and need to be a bit more focused on either a Zoo or Maverick plan.

[maharis]

I like the big zoo idea too, I think without DRS Jund is going to have trouble so this might be a good BBE deck. I'm not sure about GSZ in that case, of course, could use Adventurous Impulse or Oath of Nissa to dig for bullets. Rather stay focused on fair decks in the main and make the board all combo hate (other than Knight into Karakas)

I also love some of the Naya PWs that never get played. Domri, a bunch of Ajanis.... there's gotta be some good ones.

4 Nacatl
4 Hierarch
4 Goyf
2 QPM
2 Scooze
3 Knight
3 BBE

4 Bolt
4 some other removal or reach (PTE, STP, Chain)
4 dig spell
2 Domri Rade
2 Ajani, Caller of the Pride

20 lands inc. Karakas and maybe some other Knight bullet (Bog?)

[Megadeus]

I like the big zoo idea too, I think without DRS Jund is going to have trouble so this might be a good BBE deck. I'm not sure about GSZ in that case, of course, could use Adventurous Impulse or Oath of Nissa to dig for bullets. Rather stay focused on fair decks in the main and make the board all combo hate (other than Knight into Karakas)

I also love some of the Naya PWs that never get played. Domri, a bunch of Ajanis.... there's gotta be some good ones.

4 Nacatl
4 Hierarch
4 Goyf
2 QPM
2 Scooze
3 Knight
3 BBE

4 Bolt
4 some other removal or reach (PTE, STP, Chain)
4 dig spell
2 Domri Rade
2 Ajani, Caller of the Pride

20 lands inc. Karakas and maybe some other Knight bullet (Bog?)

I can dig it. Oath is probably the better of the two spells as long as you are running some number of walkers and it can pump goyf if drawn in multiples. Though being a sorcery also can pump up for a turn 2 Goyf if your second removal spell happens to be not Chain Lightning.

[maharis]

Ghor-Clan and Narnam Renegade also could still be strong, especially if we gravitate toward RUG + white decks (Batterskull, TNN, Mom) as the fair MUs. Narnam + Domri is so much fun.

This deck falls into the "got lots of toys over the past 6 years, now we need to find the right mix" realm. The hit to Miracles from losing Top may help Zoo just enough to keep it above water. Of course, the combo MUs are going to be super tough, like 8-leyline-plan tough because they got so much faster as well.

[Megadeus]

Ghor-Clan and Narnam Renegade also could still be strong, especially if we gravitate toward RUG + white decks (Batterskull, TNN, Mom) as the fair MUs. Narnam + Domri is so much fun.

This deck falls into the "got lots of toys over the past 6 years, now we need to find the right mix" realm. The hit to Miracles from losing Top may help Zoo just enough to keep it above water. Of course, the combo MUs are going to be super tough, like 8-leyline-plan tough because they got so much faster as well.

Shit I didn't think about Narnham + Domri. I just got a little chubby thinking about it. Domri + Goyf + Exalted is also a great way to win Goyf mirrors. Fuck Domri Zoo is sick. Idk if Ajani is good enough, since he's pretty terrible without a creature on board (unlike Domri who can at least try to draw cards). But it is a way to go jump over TNN which I think will still be important especially if UW Blade comes back. I also think adventurous impulse + baubles might be enough to fuel a Hooting Mandrills version? We're fucking brewin boys

Zzzzooooo:

Maindeck (60)
4 Narnam Renegade
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Hooting Mandrills
4 Adventurous Impulse
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard (15)
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Containment Priest
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle

[maharis]

Shit I didn't think about Narnham + Domri. I just got a little chubby thinking about it. Domri + Goyf + Exalted is also a great way to win Goyf mirrors. Fuck Domri Zoo is sick. Idk if Ajani is good enough, since he's pretty terrible without a creature on board (unlike Domri who can at least try to draw cards). But it is a way to go jump over TNN which I think will still be important especially if UW Blade comes back. I also think adventurous impulse + baubles might be enough to fuel a Hooting Mandrills version? We're fucking brewin boys

You are probably right in the short term about 3CC Ajani. But could be a good card for certain MUs going forward. It both provides a similar effect to Berserk and has insane synergy with it, which is how I first came upon it in the berserk/landfall version I played a few months back. For example, double-striking a huge Goyf or Knight can win out of nowhere; berserking the thing first can go 20-0.

But until the meta settles down probably better to not get cute and just stick to a couple Domris and more threats.

[Mr. Safety]

I like the ghor-clans, really aggressive. Did you deliberately leave out knight of the Reliquary? Seems incredibly powerful, especially if you can bloodrush gcr and swing for huge life points.

[maharis]

I like the ghor-clans, really aggressive. Did you deliberately leave out knight of the Reliquary? Seems incredibly powerful, especially if you can bloodrush gcr and swing for huge life points.

He has hooting mandrills so Knight is off the table.

[Megadeus]

No knight also probably means no Karakas. Or maybe it's fine idk. Knight still maybe be fine, but with Mandrills eating own yard I'd almost rather just have like Smiter. Just play mono 4/4's

[Mr. Safety]

No knight also probably means no Karakas. Or maybe it's fine idk. Knight still maybe be fine, but with Mandrills eating own yard I'd almost rather just have like Smiter. Just play mono 4/4's

Cheap mandrils fucks your goyfs, too. If You're not getting 4/4 trampellers for g, you have no reason to play them. I honestly think you would need to drop goyfs too and play more burn to support mandrils. I can't imagine that's better than knights though. Knight active for even 1-2 turns can become huge, like 8/8+ huge, and that's where your gcr's are going to win you games. All the while you're utilizing lands from kotr to disrupt your opponent. Having a critical mass of huge threats is probably better than swarming. You can meter out your big dudes in the face of removal/terminus.

[Megadeus]

Goyf can still retain P/T from opposing yards though. I mean I'm not saying you're wrong in what you're suggesting. This is just my initial thought on the deck. I feel like you'll be wanting to delve away lands fairly often so you can keep artifacts and other stuff in the yard for the Goof. And yes knight can make himself huge and that's a boon, but it also is a bit slow since it ratchets up over a few turns. Also I feel like at a certain point you just ask yourself why you're not just playing a dedicated Knight deck like Maverick

[r497]

Can we make Nimble Mongoose work?
Something like 10 fetches, 4 Bauble 8 Bolt/Chain. Going along Nacatl, Narnam, Goyf and the usual cards.
Has the downside of not being Ghor-Clannable, but adds some removal insurance.

[zulander]

I don't think you need GCR and Knight, since Knight can just get you Kessig Wolf Run. Also, BBE into Domri is gassss. You definitely want Bolts, and maybe swords or path depending on if you also want to play punishing fire.

[Vandalize]

After a long break from Legacy, I've returned to this degenerate format. Been testing some shit list online, list has been running ok, nothing special.

Lands [20]
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Karakas

Creatures [30]
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Narnam Renegade
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Renegade Rallier
4 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells [10]
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
3 Domri Rade
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard [15]
3 Path to Exile
2 Shapers' Sanctuary
2 Price of Progress
2 Containment Priest
1 Null Rod
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt

Shaper's Sanctuary is REALLY good in this format, you should all give it a try.

[zebhillard]

If I'm running Goyf I want other sources to help pump it, something like less lands and more copies of Land Grant to ensure our own Sorcery. The deck doesn't really sandbag secrets and the plan is almost as linear as they come, so it shouldn't be too much a downside.

[Curby]

Not sure if anyone saw this list: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24297&d=369651&f=LE

Hexdrinker replaces Nacatl, Reclaimer provides the land toolbox feature that KotR gave to previous big zoo decks, and planeswalkers help provide some resistances to sweepers. The deck remains rather low to the ground, though the splash of blue for Oko somehow seems a little off-brand.

[kinda]

Not sure if anyone saw this list: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24297&d=369651&f=LE

Hexdrinker replaces Nacatl, Reclaimer provides the land toolbox feature that KotR gave to previous big zoo decks, and planeswalkers help provide some resistances to sweepers. The deck remains rather low to the ground, though the splash of blue for Oko somehow seems a little off-brand.

It looks sweet but extremely soft to combo.

[Mr. Safety]

I saw the deck as well, and I realized that Oko once again makes another card (more) obsolete with Wild Nacatl. Oko makes Wild Nacatls all by himself every other turn. This deck lives in the same space as Maverick, just a little more aggressive. I don't think it really has legs because I think the combo decks are going to come back fierce once the metagame goes further over the edge of grindy mid-range control matchups. However, if someone were determined, these are some cards that can really help with combo matchups:

Veil of Summer
Meddling Mage
Weather the Storm
Flusterstorm
Dovin's Veto


Add some number of those to the Bog/Karakas maindeck plan and it won't be favorable, but at least bring some of the combo matchups up to 50/50.

[H]

Just watched Samu_27 (https://www.twitch.tv/marcomale) 5-0 with this list from Ozymandias17:

Planeswalker (3)
3 Oko, Thief of Crowns

Creature (22)
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Elvish Reclaimer
2 Hexdrinker
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Klothys, God of Destiny
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Renegade Rallier

Sorcery (3)
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Instant (8)
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Once Upon a Time

Enchantment (2)
2 Sylvan Library

Land (22)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
2 Deafening Silence
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Blood Moon
1 Knight of Autumn
4 Leyline of the Void

Maybe Klothys and Oko were all we needed to make Zoo decent again? :laugh:

[zulander]

Totally forgot to add this here, but our zoo discord is active whereas many forums are not any more. Here's a link to our discord - we primarily discuss modern, but have legacy channel as well.

https://discord.gg/Va6JA7R

[JackaBo]

Looks awesome!

[Reeplcheep]

Someone just got third in the Saturday challenge with actual zoo. They were running 12 cantrip hate creatures which is a key innovation.


4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Esper Sentinel
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel


They were also running ending over plow, which ignores Thalia and helps against zoos historically bad chalice matchup.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2022-03-06

[ESG]

They were also running ending over plow, which ignores Thalia and helps against zoos historically bad chalice matchup.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2022-03-06

Love to see it.

I wouldn't say Zoo had much of an issue with Chalice historically. Pridemages were stock, and most of the Chalice decks had trouble beating a Tarmogoyf. Zoo struggled against numerous other decks, though. Some combo decks could be prepared for, but limited sideboard space meant gaping holes in other matchups. Sneak and Show was a beating, and Natural Order wasn't much better. Lands was also very unfavorable. Terminus and True-Name Nemesis were the other big problems.

I would be curious to know what Byvci faced over the course of the tournament. The Top 16 doesn't look favorable for the list, so I'm guessing Byvci beat up on Delver and the Control decks that aren't playing sweepers, then stole a couple matches with sideboard choices that lined up.

[Reeplcheep]

Ahh I don’t have any history with zoo. I just assumed it was difficult like other non-Fow decks with a million 1 drops. Painter pre saga/ANT/hogaak/elves pre shepherd all had a terrible chalice mu.

You were mostly right. From the data collection project (please support us if you value this stuff):
2-1 Grixis
1-2 Lands
2-0 UR delver
2-0 UR Delver
2-0 UWr
2-0 UR Delver
2-1 Ant

2-1 Ant
1-2 UR delver