Esperblade

[KobeBryan]

What is esperblade's bad matchup?

Seems like half the field today at scg is playing esper.

[testing32]

RUG
Nic Fit
12 Post

[GradStudentGuy]

What is esperblade's bad matchup?

Seems like half the field today at scg is playing esper.

From playing against I have found its weak spot is the manabase.

[alphastryk]

What is esperblade's bad matchup?

Seems like half the field today at scg is playing esper.

There's always a lot of Esper at SCG opens it seems. The deck still isn't that exciting.

[KobeBryan]

From playing against I have found its weak spot is the manabase.

they run lots of fetch and lots of them even fetch basics first.

If the bad matchups are RUG, nic fit, and 12 post, that is a very good deck across the field.

[xfxf]

Sneak&Show, Omni-Tell, Jund

[KobeBryan]

Sneak&Show, Omni-Tell, Jund

Not sure about jund, but sneak show and omni tell seem to have a bad matchup against esper.

[undone]

Mud seems to have a rather favorable matchup. Chalice on 1 is back breaking g1, Trinisphere on turn 1 is back breaking. Lodestone is good. Cavern is an MVP, as is lightning greaves.

Rug is good vs them as long as they don't have the all basics hand and you daze something along the way. The matchup is substantially better if you run the full 4 snares for stoneforge and fire/ice or forked bolt for souls.

[ThediscoPower]

RUG
Nic Fit
12 Post

Pretty much this. Minus RUG. If you know how to play against RUG, which includes playing around daze and stifle, you wont lose against RUG.

Nic Fit requires you to identify which version you are playing against, and then working on not letting their engine go off from there (the valakut version is the hardest on esper, IMHO). Sideboarding is tricky against them. Mostly a hard matchup for esper no matter the version of nic fit, or for any fair controling deck, really.

12 Post is indeed the worst matchup I can think of. not playing wasteland (and even then, if he wants to add wasteland to the list, he would have to dedicate to it, and not only play 1 or 2, like most stoneblade players do, which is just not enough, when the deck doesn't have the clock to go with it), and the fact that esper doesn't have the quickest of clocks makes that the post player will usually just produce a load of mana and shove an Emrakul down the esper player's throat. Esper has chances tho, but slim ones (usually involves thoughseizes, vandicates, snapcasters while beating with a clique). And even then, the minute a primeval titan enters the field, just scoop (can't beat Eye of Ugin. Seriously).

[Aggro_zombies]

"Knowing how to play against RUG" makes the vast majority of decks immune to RUG. The fact that RUG is still one of the top decks in the format indicates that people either don't know how to play against it, or that playing around it is not as easy as you make it sound. Anyway, as far as Tier 1 decks are concerned, RUG is probably the best one if you're looking to have decent combo and Esper matchups. You bite it to Jund, but hey, nothing's perfect.

Generic Jund isn't favored against generic Esperblade because the latter is the control deck vs. a midrange deck, and because Esperblade is not as badly affected by discard thanks to flashback and planeswalkers. You can modify either deck to beat the other if you want, but it is still probably an uphill battle for Jund in the absence of a super-inbred meta. That Jund's combo matchups aren't atrocious makes it an attractive deck in Esper-light environments, but I would not want to go to an SCG Open with the deck without at least a few dedicated maindeck/sideboard slots for Esper.

Decks like MUD and 12Post show up infrequently and really shouldn't be considered "answer" decks in terms of metagame dynamics. There are a variety of rare decks that beat Esper or decks with strong Esper matchups that are nevertheless poorly positioned against the field at large; these are not going to dissuade people from running Esper because they should have low frequency in the Swiss.

[lordofthepit]

What is esperblade's bad matchup?

Seems like half the field today at scg is playing esper.

In my experience, RUG is roughly 50-50 (slightly in favor of Esper, but depends on boards), Nic Fit is favorable for Esper (although I've heard the opposite), and 12-Post is a terrible matchup for Esper.

Sneak Attack is an unfavorable matchup, but not a lopsided one.

Punishing Jund is a pretty bad matchup, but regular Jund is fine.

[Kich867]

Having extensive playtesting against a highly skilled Esper opponent, I can tell you first hand that their only bad matchup is 12-post. Otherwise, tight play and decent draws will make it an even or favored game.

I think they are favored against many of the decks and highly skilled pilots will take it as far as it needs to go. And the thought that anyone would even try and say that Sneak&Show is favored against them is laughable, -maybe- game one. But even game one, they're contending with ~8 counterspells, 4 discard, jace, karakas, supreme verdict and clique, which is pretty handy against them. Games two and three is just a huge blowout: more cliques, more counters, humility, more discard, I'd say Esper is heavily favored.

Punishing Jund is bad game one, which means sometimes they can pull it out in another game, but Rest In Peace literally shits on their entire deck and smart play will dictate that it likely won't be abrupt decayed.

Sayin that Nic Fit is a bad matchup is pretty hilarious. Maybe the scapeshift version because they don't run Wasteland (or shouldn't)? Otherwise Nic Fit is wildly in their favor.

[catmint]

The thing about esper is that you can tune it a lot depending on what you expect and therefore put up an even to slightly positive fight against a wide field (if you are a skilled player). I agree 12 Post is the matchup coming to mind where tuning won't do much. :laugh:

From the prison decks I think MUD is not a bad matchup. Lands and enchantress are surely more painful.

[Iron Buddha]

I agree 12 Post is the matchup coming to mind where tuning won't do much.

Just play Humility...

[Megadeus]

The thing about esper is that you can tune it a lot depending on what you expect and therefore put up an even to slightly positive fight against a wide field (if you are a skilled player). I agree 12 Post is the matchup coming to mind where tuning won't do much. :laugh:

From the prison decks I think MUD is not a bad matchup. Lands and enchantress are surely more painful.

This. The reason Esper is a popular deck is due to its lack of horrid MUs. The colors allow for pretty much any type of SB to beat whatever you want, and with an experienced pilot with Optimal play skill it is a great deck. It doesnt have any serious overwhelming match ups in its favor, but it has the ability to beat anything as well which is why it is so popular in large tourneys with a bunch of random decks.

[lordofthepit]

I think they are favored against many of the decks and highly skilled pilots will take it as far as it needs to go. And the thought that anyone would even try and say that Sneak&Show is favored against them is laughable, -maybe- game one. But even game one, they're contending with ~8 counterspells, 4 discard, jace, karakas, supreme verdict and clique, which is pretty handy against them. Games two and three is just a huge blowout: more cliques, more counters, humility, more discard, I'd say Esper is heavily favored.

I've played both decks, and I'd be very happy to be on the Sneak Attack side of the table.

Game one, Esper usually has 6 counterspells: 3 Forces, 1 Counterspell, 2 Pierces (which line up horribly against Sneak Attack's ramp and 9-11 counterspells, 7-8 of which are free). 4 discard spells are solid, but 2 of them are usually Inquisition of Kozilek which hits Show and Tell but not the other enabler or the fatties (or most of the protection for that matter). Clique is good against the Show and Tell plan but gets run as a one-of. Ditto Karakas, but only against Emrakul. Jace is a strong play if you can stabilize (or against a Show and Tell -> Emrakul) on turn 3 or later. Supreme Verdict is usually a one-of and answers both Emrakul and Griselbrand, but you'll have to tap out and contend with their new 7-14 cards if they dropped Griselbrand, and unlike having a Jace, you don't even get to keep a planeswalker in play. Not to mention that Sneak Attack runs 8-10 cantrips (compared to Esper's 5-6) which allows it to not only dig for business very quickly, but also protect important cards from discard.

Game two, Esper can bring in usually a second Clique, a Force of Will, maybe a few Flusterstorms, and perhaps two discard spells (plus Sword of Feast and Famine). Maybe a faster clock in Geist too if they opt to do so. Humility would be awesome against Show and Tell (or against Sneak as well if you can resolve it before they go off), but I don't think many Esper decks run it, and only as a one-of with no Tutor at best. Sneak Attack can bring in some combination of Red Elemental Blasts, Defense Grid to essentially nullify your countermagic, and Leyline of Sanctity to just shut down all your discard spells and Cliques.

[Julian23]

If you're playing Miracles, slam fucking Baneslayer Angel postboard. At least that's how we did it last year and it was pretty freaking cool AND good.

[Kuma]

I'll second (third?) that Esperblade has a poor matchup against Show and Tell decks, especially Hive Mind. They have fewer counterspells, very little discard, and a slow clock.

[alphastryk]

If you're playing Miracles, slam fucking Baneslayer Angel postboard. At least that's how we did it last year and it was pretty freaking cool AND good.

Yup, BSA is a beast in the matchup, but she's lost a lot of ground elsewhere unfortunately.

[Kich867]

I've played both decks, and I'd be very happy to be on the Sneak Attack side of the table.

Game one, Esper usually has 6 counterspells: 3 Forces, 1 Counterspell, 2 Pierces (which line up horribly against Sneak Attack's ramp and 9-11 counterspells, 7-8 of which are free). 4 discard spells are solid, but 2 of them are usually Inquisition of Kozilek which hits Show and Tell but not the other enabler or the fatties (or most of the protection for that matter). Clique is good against the Show and Tell plan but gets run as a one-of. Ditto Karakas, but only against Emrakul. Jace is a strong play if you can stabilize (or against a Show and Tell -> Emrakul) on turn 3 or later. Supreme Verdict is usually a one-of and answers both Emrakul and Griselbrand, but you'll have to tap out and contend with their new 7-14 cards if they dropped Griselbrand, and unlike having a Jace, you don't even get to keep a planeswalker in play. Not to mention that Sneak Attack runs 8-10 cantrips (compared to Esper's 5-6) which allows it to not only dig for business very quickly, but also protect important cards from discard.

Game two, Esper can bring in usually a second Clique, a Force of Will, maybe a few Flusterstorms, and perhaps two discard spells (plus Sword of Feast and Famine). Maybe a faster clock in Geist too if they opt to do so. Humility would be awesome against Show and Tell (or against Sneak as well if you can resolve it before they go off), but I don't think many Esper decks run it, and only as a one-of with no Tutor at best. Sneak Attack can bring in some combination of Red Elemental Blasts, Defense Grid to essentially nullify your countermagic, and Leyline of Sanctity to just shut down all your discard spells and Cliques.

Perhaps he's just very well prepared for it then, he hasn't lost to it in tournament play yet. This was the list he ran through a recent Jupiter tournament with and it's at least similar to what he is running now: http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/44193

More relevantly, it's prevalent in our meta and being prepared for it is a must.

So maindeck:
6 counterspells
4 discard
1 clique
1 karakas
1 verdict

postboard:
+1 humility
+1 supreme verdict
+1 force
+2 flusterstorm
+1 clique
+1 duress
+1 sword of feast and famine

Which puts him at:
10 counters
5 discard
2 board wipes
2 clique
humility
karakas
jace

Or something like that. If that's considered unfavorable against Sneak&Tell then the deck should be stone-cold raping every tournament and it's not even close.

Between ponder, brainstorm, and Jace it's not hard to find your 1-of's.

[lordofthepit]

Punishing Jund is bad game one, which means sometimes they can pull it out in another game, but Rest In Peace literally shits on their entire deck and smart play will dictate that it likely won't be abrupt decayed.

I don't think most Esper decks run Rest in Peace. Unlike Surgical Extraction, which is good with Snapcaster, and Nihil Spellbomb, which is good with Academy Ruins, Rest in Peace is a nonbo with both cards plus Lingering Souls, plus Esper has no way to combo with RiP. Plus RiP is not too bad to play around: you just keep Punishing Fire in your hand until you draw one of 4 Decays, bouncing Fire back if it's in your graveyard in response to RiP. I mean, Esper can sometimes back all that up with discard plus a quick Batterskull and a bunch of Spirit tokens and just win, but Punishing Jund has both the more aggressive start and the stronger late game, so Esper really needs to dominate the midgame.

[AngryTroll]

How is Esper's matchup with Team America? I've played the match enough to know that it's very interesting and feels pretty close, but not enough to reach a conclusion.

[Tammit67]

In addition to 12 post, I've found punishing fire lock very difficult to beat for Esperblade. Game 1 comes down to whether or not grove + fires decides to show up early enough, and the subsequent games are usually about whether their is an opportunity to get either the groves or fires extracted/ removed with other GY hate.

Storm variants preboard (TES/AnT/DDFT/High Tide) feel unfavorable for esper (maybe like 45% esper-55% storm), postboard is dictated by the amount of cards each has against each other. Extracting a tutor/high tide can lead to quick wins, as can properly timed cliques, but having discard + counters + clock + lands is really unlikely. Feels about 50/50 for the match.

Esper tends to have the most trouble against archetypes very much dedicated to one line of play. Since esper has so many varied lines of play, it often is not optimized well enough (at least game 1) to properly deal with a deck hellbent on a particular route to victory. In contrast though, none of the matchups are so horrendous as to be considered near autolosses, and you have game against pretty much anything else an event throws at you.

[lordofthepit]

How is Esper's matchup with Team America? I've played the match enough to know that it's very interesting and feels pretty close, but not enough to reach a conclusion.

Based on discussions from the Team America thread, Dan Signorini considered Esper a relatively bad matchup until he started playing Sinkholes. I imagine it's slightly favorable for Dan, but assuming two pilots of comparable skill, I think Esper is ahead here.

I think Esper has a pretty favorable matchup against BUG control though. Lingering Souls matches well with both Planeswalkers and a Jitte hit owns almost all of BUG's threats.

[Kich867]

Something people really need to take into account is the experience of the player. Esper, RUG, Storm combo, these decks reward good play on a level that very few other decks do (take a look at Bryant Cook's victory at SCG DC this weekend, fucking masterful). It's not about knowing little tricks with your deck, or having full knowledge of your deck and what it's capable of, it's genuinely understanding the game, understanding your options, and more importantly understanding your opponent's options at any given moment.

A skilled pilot who's often two to three turns ahead of the current game state...I'd go so far as to say their win% goes up by as much as 40% depending on how skilled the opponent is. Esper is a deck that isn't beaten by any particular archetype*, it's beaten by players. You have to be better at your deck, at that moment, than they are at Esper to beat them. And if they're a lot better at Esper than you are at your deck, you'll very, very rarely eek out wins.

The reason it's such a good deck isn't that it's necessarily resilient or flexible or has the answers, it's that the skill cap to play the deck is a lot higher than others, and the only way to topple someone who's -really- fucking good at playing it is being better than they are at a deck with a skill cap that is just as high or maybe higher. This is why, quite frankly, a Sneak&Show player won't often beat a very skilled Esper pilot. Sneak&Show doesn't have much control over the game, it's a lot of hoping, and it's real all-in on this one thing working out. I know people bitch about it a lot, but from a real objective point of view, the skill cap of Show And Tell decks just isn't there. It's not nearly as high as Esper nor does it reward better play -nearly- as well as Esper does.

And I would say contrary to the point above, any deck that's real focused on doing one thing gets -smashed- by Esper. They simply turn into whatever they need to do to stone-cold rape that strategy. Game one is almost always even, and post-board is almost always in their favor because they take out all dead cards and bring in bombs against you, and not a lot really hoses them back.

* Except 12-post which is an abysmally almost unwinnable match. It's winnable, but has a lot more to do with them getting screwed. Punishing Jund is an issue as well, but those are the only two decks that are actually positive against them.

[Tammit67]

And I would say contrary to the point above, any deck that's real focused on doing one thing gets -smashed- by Esper. They simply turn into whatever they need to do to stone-cold rape that strategy. Game one is almost always even, and post-board is almost always in their favor because they take out all dead cards and bring in bombs against you, and not a lot really hoses them back.



Certainly the esper shell is flexible enough to board into methods of completely shutting down single minded strategies. I just don't believe the flexible but not optimal in any one matchup approach to esper's main is good enough to consistently stop scapeshift, loam, punishing fire, CBtop engines. The Esper methods for interaction can very often be overloaded during game 1's, and that at least makes the matches more troublesome.

Agreed though, if Esper is prepared for it, games 2/3 will not be easy for the opponent.

[ThediscoPower]

"Knowing how to play against RUG" makes the vast majority of decks immune to RUG. The fact that RUG is still one of the top decks in the format indicates that people either don't know how to play against it, or that playing around it is not as easy as you make it sound. Anyway, as far as Tier 1 decks are concerned, RUG is probably the best one if you're looking to have decent combo and Esper matchups. You bite it to Jund, but hey, nothing's perfect.


Now, I understand where you come from, and I agree with you, to some extend. However, it also shows that I made a poor job of actually explaining my point, so I'll elaborate. What I wanted to say, is the fact that personally, I feel like esper has all the necessary tools to fight at least on par against RUG. However, how many games have I seen the esper player just lose the game because he sequenced his cards incorrectly, or tries to jam his game winning cards quickly, sometimes playing straight into ''daze your spell, stifle your response fetch, untap waste your tundra and smash you with that mangoose you can't deal with. Nice empty board, by the way''. And then they just die, without even having the chance to play their cards. Even now, I still see a lot of those kind of games, and that's what I mean with '' not knowing how to play against them''. Now, no, it really isn't as easy as I make it sound , but esper (especially esper) really has the tools to make it out of there alive, and fight for a 50-50 chance pre-board (NOT a bad matchup pourcentage, if you ask me). As such, as an esper pilot, if you asked me if I was ever afraid of a RUG player, I would tell you no. I would tell you that in that matchup, I feel very confident to take the 2 games I need. Unlike, say, against 12 post.

I would still say that the matchup is about even preboard , and favors stoneblade post-board (especially because of cards like perish, or even supreme verdict).


Just play Humility...

Humility post board isn't actually that good, especially when they probably will just repeal/grip it. Or all is dust you, with boseiju backup (depending on the version). Or emrakul you forever with a karakas. Humility usually just slows them down, as you still don't have a scary enough clock to threaten them anyways.

[Raystar]

The best answer that a 12-post player has against Humility is casting Ulamog...bye bye humility :) Once Eye of Ugin is out, there is very little that an Esper player can do

[Iron Buddha]

hm, maybe Cunning Wish? So you can put 1 Humility mainboard and dig it up via ET, Stifle counters the the Ulamog trigger and Mindbreak trap counters Emrakul.

How is Jund beating them? Do they simply have a better clock?

[xfxf]

Jund is disrupting their hand and putting up a clock at the same time.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I think Punishing Jund is easily the worst tier 1 matchup for Esper. Fortunately for Esper, Jund has a very difficult time with combo decks and has been on the decline. Honestly, Esper is a great choice for SCG Opens right now.

[Final Fortune]

I think Punishing Jund is easily the worst tier 1 matchup for Esper. Fortunately for Esper, Jund has a very difficult time with combo decks and has been on the decline. Honestly, Esper is a great choice for SCG Opens right now.

This, as far as Esper's most difficult match ups are concerned Jund with Punishing Fire and Storm are the closest to coin-flipping or playing from behind, and I think the only reason Storm is close is because Esper players are durdling with Karakas and Academy instead of playing 3 Wasteland. I didn't realize Posts was a real deck, but I imagine it'd be a difficult matchup.

Esper is just the kind of deck every Pro wants to take to an Open, you're never going to face a significantly bad match up - it's kind of like Goblins way back in the day.

[countorlandea]

Lands is unbelievably bad.

slightly better after the surgicals come in, but its just a nightmare. tabernacle + several maze of ith + recurring wastelands is just too much.

[Tylert]

Death and taxes is supposed to have a good match-up vs Stoneblade decks.

[DragoFireheart]

Lands is unbelievably bad.

This post has a double meaning by the way: bad for the Esper player and bad for the Lands player.

[nedleeds]

Enchantress goes in dry if they land white leyline.

[Tammit67]

Lands is unbelievably bad.

slightly better after the surgicals come in, but its just a nightmare. tabernacle + several maze of ith + recurring wastelands is just too much.

You only plan in the matchup is to land and protect Jace. If you are trying to aggro them out with lingering souls, you are doing it wrong. It is not great, but not as bad as you make it sound.

Source: Lived near/tested against Mchainmail (Michael Caffery) for 2 years while he was on the deck. It does not interact too well with jace.

[Raystar]

You only plan in the matchup is to land and protect Jace. If you are trying to aggro them out with lingering souls, you are doing it wrong. It is not great, but not as bad as you make it sound.

Source: Lived near/tested against Mchainmail (Michael Caffery) for 2 years while he was on the deck. It does not interact too well with jace.

The latest versions of Lands pack Punishing Fire that makes managing Jace a lot easier.

[Tammit67]

The latest versions of Lands pack Punishing Fire that makes managing Jace a lot easier.

That's fair, that is not a change I've had experience with. Until Esper looks to extirpate/RiP instead of surgical, I can see why it's now considered terrible.

EDIT: I'm an idiot, extirpate doesn't do anything different against grove's mana ability and punishing fire trigger.

[DragoFireheart]

EDIT: I'm an idiot, extirpate doesn't do anything different against grove's mana ability and punishing fire trigger.

Punishing Fire is pretty hard to get rid of. You need RiP or something static to ensure it doesn't just get triggered by a Grove.

[countorlandea]

That's fair, that is not a change I've had experience with. Until Esper looks to extirpate/RiP instead of surgical, I can see why it's now considered terrible.

EDIT: I'm an idiot, extirpate doesn't do anything different against grove's mana ability and punishing fire trigger.


Creeping tar pit also pretty handily beats down jace, although we do usually pack a wasteland or two, they can tutor(intuition) it or dig to it faster ala dredging. and if it's game 1 then life of the loam will just keep bringing him back too. And of course swords takes care of him completely.

Edit: actually yeah swords kinda just owns him, but engineering explosives for 4 is always within reach

[Raystar]

What you generally do with the Tar Pit, if you suspect a StP incoming, is to keep a Wasteland open to bin it in response.

[Lord Seth]

That's fair, that is not a change I've had experience with. Until Esper looks to extirpate/RiP instead of surgical, I can see why it's now considered terrible.

EDIT: I'm an idiot, extirpate doesn't do anything different against grove's mana ability and punishing fire trigger.Well, I believe it sort of does. You can use Extirpate in response to them tapping Grove of the Burnwillows for mana and the Punishing Fire trigger going on the stack. However, if you try to Extirpate, they can respond by tapping Grove of the Burnwillows due to it being a mana ability. It can work, you just have to use the Extirpate in response, giving you the advantage that they can't cast anything in response to it.

Though if they have two Grove of the Burnwillows in play, you're kind of screwed.

[Malakai]

Surgical and Extirpate are fine if you're already running wasteland.

[Tammit67]

Well, I believe it sort of does. You can use Extirpate in response to them tapping Grove of the Burnwillows for mana and the Punishing Fire trigger going on the stack. However, if you try to Extirpate, they can respond by tapping Grove of the Burnwillows due to it being a mana ability. It can work, you just have to use the Extirpate in response, giving you the advantage that they can't cast anything in response to it.

Though if they have two Grove of the Burnwillows in play, you're kind of screwed.

It does nothing that surgical does not in this regard

[phazonmutant]

I haven't tested the matchup in tournament play yet, but from a little bit of testing, BUG Delver is somewhat favored against Esper. The sideboard Sinkhole plan prevents them from executing their plan of casting 3+ CMC haymakers. As long as we have a way to deal with Lingering Souls, BUG Delver should be able to ride the tempo advantage to victory.

The times we lose seem to be solely on the back of Lingering Souls and Jace, which are "solved" with Engineered Plague and Sinkhole. Sometimes things don't work out that way though.

[AEnesidem]

I haven't tested the matchup in tournament play yet, but from a little bit of testing, BUG Delver is somewhat favored against Esper. The sideboard Sinkhole plan prevents them from executing their plan of casting 3+ CMC haymakers. As long as we have a way to deal with Lingering Souls, BUG Delver should be able to ride the tempo advantage to victory.

The times we lose seem to be solely on the back of Lingering Souls and Jace, which are "solved" with Engineered Plague and Sinkhole. Sometimes things don't work out that way though.

anything attacking esperblade's manabase makes the matchup slightly unfavored for esperblade: RUG and BUG tempo above all. If you don't succeed in taking out our manabase you'll probably have trouble beating it though as they have perish, verdict, jaces, souls, tons of removal and tempo decks become bad in the late game.