[Primer/Deck] Pox

[Mr. Safety]

I like your approach for mono black. Unfortunately, I do not have access to chains of m, nether void, or the abyss. I think you habe answers for pws and tokens, I just have other answers. Hexmage kills pws, pulse and deed kill tokens.

[OmniStrata]

Ratchet Bomb and Powder Keg kills tokens faster, though Pulse can't be Pithing needled. It's a shame the Vaka Pox's Vindicate isn't used. Being able to nuke even more land must be unnerving for Miracles players. That thread has been dead for years now.

As explained before, Pox does have time to crank up Bombs and Kegs if the backup is appropriate. A recent game with Miracles had me, as a test, popping Bomb and Keg at 1 counter forcing him to place his SDT on top of the library. This was early game when I managed to land a Wasteland and a Sinkhole before hand. It essentially hamstrung his deck for four turns since he could only cast the top, spin the top, but not both on the same turn. He was stuck on 1 land for 4-5 turns and Liliana came online much earlier. I'm beginning to think running a single Buried Ruin in place of 1 swamp and a Crucible in place of 1 Pox may turn into a disgusting lock for a SDT user.

Oh, if you can Extirpate in response to a top spin activation, I now think that nailing the Fetchlands is the proper call. The less targets that dodge Sinkhole, the more dangerous we become. That and we can "top screw" them.

"top screw": noun. To cause Sensei's Divining Top to create very shitty draws over the course of 3 turns due to the inability to shuffle the library. :eek:

[Hardcore]

Extirpate is basically a LD in disguise sinces the opponent set up the condition for its use. That or cantrips are good targets. Kill whatever you see first:-)

[Hardcore]

Myself i will try another approach on tuesday. 8-rack variants just want too race, which i like.

[Chiptoon]

I have been testing this list to a good amount of success both in paper and on Cockatrice. I think I'm just about settled for the time being although I'm iffy on the Extirpates in the sideboard. Sometimes they just annihilate decks, but most of the time I just shoot the first decent target available. This list just feels right to me and Murderous Cut especially has come up clutch very often even if it's just to clear out the second Nether Spirit from the yard. I've been thinking about cutting one card in the board for a Ratchet Bomb, but honestly I'm not sure if it's worth it. What do you guys think?

Mainboard:

Land - 25
13 x Swamp
4 x Wasteland
4 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 x Mishra's Factory

Instant - 5
4 x Dark Ritual
1 x Murderous Cut

Sorcery - 19
4 x Inquisition of Kozilek
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Sinkhole
4 x Smallpox
3 x Innocent Blood

Enchantment - 2
1 x Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 x Nether Void

Artifact - 3
3 x Cursed Scroll

Planeswalker - 4
4 x Liliana of the Veil

Creature - 2
2 x Nether Spirit

Sideboard - 15
3 x Ensnaring Bridge
3 x Engineered Plague
3 x Leyline of the Void
2 x Pithing Needle
2 x Spinning Darkness
2 x Extirpate

[jredelstein]

Challenge Accepted!

In a couple weeks I will either report back with a list or report back that I don't think it is good.

So I built a UB Counterbalance Smallpox deck, I went 2-1 at a small local Legacy event with my only loss being mostly because of my misplaying.

The decks I played where very bad match-ups for Counterbalance so I sided them out 2 of the 3 rounds, so jury is still out on weather the Counterbalance part is good. The smallpox side is great though, having Jace, the Mind Sculptor next to Liliana of the Veil is one of my favorite things to do. Snapcaster Mage is amazing with Sinkhole and plays really well with Cabal Therapy. At one point I cast Snapcaster targeting Innocent Blood, sacrificed Snapcaster to therapy, then flashed back innocent blood. I also cast Sinkhole 5 times in one match with the help of snapcaster in addition to a Wasteland.

Counterbalance was the worst card in the deck but I am not sure if that is because it doesn't fit or because of the match-ups I played. I'll keep you posted if Counterbalance-Smallpox is a real thing, for now I believe UB Pox definitely has a lot of potential.

[OmniStrata]

So I built a UB Counterbalance Smallpox deck, I went 2-1 at a small local Legacy event with my only loss being mostly because of my misplaying.

The decks I played where very bad match-ups for Counterbalance so I sided them out 2 of the 3 rounds, so jury is still out on weather the Counterbalance part is good. The smallpox side is great though, having Jace, the Mind Sculptor next to Liliana of the Veil is one of my favorite things to do. Snapcaster Mage is amazing with Sinkhole and plays really well with Cabal Therapy. At one point I cast Snapcaster targeting Innocent Blood, sacrificed Snapcaster to therapy, then flashed back innocent blood. I also cast Sinkhole 5 times in one match with the help of snapcaster in addition to a Wasteland.

Counterbalance was the worst card in the deck but I am not sure if that is because it doesn't fit or because of the match-ups I played. I'll keep you posted if Counterbalance-Smallpox is a real thing, for now I believe UB Pox definitely has a lot of potential.

Oh noes! :eek: I'd recommend Shadow of Doubt in the sideboard. It's effectively a Stifle and/or Tutor killer. Does the fact you nuke your own lands cause issues? What's the deck list look like? Casting Snapcaster to flash black Innocent Blood sounds weird to use that same snapcaster to flashback Cabal Therapy. Unless you had multiple sac targets. :confused:

[Ralf]

Oh noes! :eek: I'd recommend Shadow of Doubt in the sideboard. It's effectively a Stifle and/or Tutor killer. Does the fact you nuke your own lands cause issues? What's the deck list look like? Casting Snapcaster to flash black Innocent Blood sounds weird to use that same snapcaster to flashback Cabal Therapy. Unless you had multiple sac targets. :confused:

Actually, the flashback effect of Snappy dude lasts until end of turn.
Thus:
1) you can play snap targetting IB.
2) Once Snap is resolved (and IB can be flashbacked), sacrifice Snap to cabal therapy
3) Finally play IB.

Or How to get full value of everything...

[PirateKing]

Actually, the flashback effect of Snappy dude lasts until end of turn.
Thus:
1) you can play snap targetting IB.
2) Once Snap is resolved (and IB can be flashbacked), sacrifice Snap to cabal therapy
3) Finally play IB.

Or How to get full value of everything...

Yeah, the UB Extirpate Pox deck I'm working on in new and developmental does this as well, not many lines of play fill you with such sinister joy as flashing back a Smallpox, but only after a Cabal Therapy. What were your matchups when CB was bad?

[jredelstein]

Yeah, the UB Extirpate Pox deck I'm working on in new and developmental does this as well, not many lines of play fill you with such sinister joy as flashing back a Smallpox, but only after a Cabal Therapy. What were your matchups when CB was bad?

I played against 2 Aether Vial Decks, Death and Taxes and Goblins, if they don't cast their spells then Counterbalance can't do it's thing.

I might try to run Steel Sabotage because Pithing Needle is annoying, hitting Liliana, Jace, Cursed Scroll, and Sensei's Top in my list. But I have been trying to build it as a tap out control deck, I never liked decks that have to choose between keeping up mana and progressing the board.

[OmniStrata]

Are you running Force of Will? :eek:

[jredelstein]

Are you running Force of Will? :eek:

In the sideboard, the blue count was not high enough in the main board, I really only want Force of Will against fast combo anyways.

[OmniStrata]

What would a Pox player give for Unmask to be instant speed? I used to run it but found the card disadvantage too extreme.

What's more, combo decks don't go off on turn 1 more than 30% of the time. If there was one that could go for the kill on turn 1 more than 50% of the time, it'd be DTB all decade long right? :mad:

[Hardcore]

Combo can fizzle, and the players make mistakes. Let it work to your advantage

[OmniStrata]

Ancient Pox, the current update for my current meta (less agro, more beefy tokens, mid range, and long control)

//Win Conditions (8)
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Nether Spirit

//Discard (8)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach

//Land Destruction (8)
4 Wasteland
4 Sinkhole

// Pox FX (12)
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Pox

//Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

//Mana (20)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 Snow-Covered Swamp

//Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
2 Powder Keg
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Tombstalker
4 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
2 Leyline of the Void

Wth? I've got less 1 toughness decks to deal with and find higher strength tokens (4/4 angels gah) getting annoying. Also, I've found pithing to be less effective against things that can be destroyed (Jace) vs. things that can 'dodge' (SDT, fetchlands). Bombs and Kegs work wonders for token armies, enemy needles, and my favorite, Jace murders. A single 'standard' Pox threat can prevent Jace from growing, but can't kill him. I've gone the bombing route, which has worked in the past.

Sideboard choice. Tomby kills fast. It's the best pressure for this deck when they're in top deck mode and need to find that big kill (exile) card. Plague can still come in vs. things like D&T (humans) or Lingering Souls, tribal (empty the warrens) etc.

Pros: much more effective vs. decks looking to go long and hit as many land drops as possible (hating on you Miracles! :mad:) Extirpating fetchlands and thereby removing possible top decked lands (x8 for 2 Extirpates) has proven catastrophic. I'd rather exile all Ponders vs. BS due to the 'shuffle the deck' nature of the cantrip.

Cons: Having no form of board wipe makes dealing with 3+ biggies very difficult. Cursed Scroll can handle most annoyances (as long as you can Bomb their Leyline of Sanctity, which shuts off our Liliana ult and CS) Running 12 symmetric effects means decks that use the GY to generate power become stronger than before. Exceptionally weak to burn. Also weaker to high speed decks so if the meta were to turn into more vials, I'd have to change up again.

Name: every card in the deck is proven as a 'powerfully useful' card in all previous Pox decks so this is all the oldies brought together.

[zenitramleirdag]

Ancient Pox, the current update for my current meta (less agro, more beefy tokens, mid range, and long control)

//Win Conditions (8)
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Nether Spirit

//Discard (8)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach

//Land Destruction (8)
4 Wasteland
4 Sinkhole

// Pox FX (12)
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Pox

//Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

//Mana (20)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 Snow-Covered Swamp

//Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
2 Powder Keg
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Tombstalker
4 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
2 Leyline of the Void

Wth? I've got less 1 toughness decks to deal with and find higher strength tokens (4/4 angels gah) getting annoying. Also, I've found pithing to be less effective against things that can be destroyed (Jace) vs. things that can 'dodge' (SDT, fetchlands). Bombs and Kegs work wonders for token armies, enemy needles, and my favorite, Jace murders. A single 'standard' Pox threat can prevent Jace from growing, but can't kill him. I've gone the bombing route, which has worked in the past.

Sideboard choice. Tomby kills fast. It's the best pressure for this deck when they're in top deck mode and need to find that big kill (exile) card. Plague can still come in vs. things like D&T (humans) or Lingering Souls, tribal (empty the warrens) etc.

Pros: much more effective vs. decks looking to go long and hit as many land drops as possible (hating on you Miracles! :mad:) Extirpating fetchlands and thereby removing possible top decked lands (x8 for 2 Extirpates) has proven catastrophic. I'd rather exile all Ponders vs. BS due to the 'shuffle the deck' nature of the cantrip.

Cons: Having no form of board wipe makes dealing with 3+ biggies very difficult. Cursed Scroll can handle most annoyances (as long as you can Bomb their Leyline of Sanctity, which shuts off our Liliana ult and CS) Running 12 symmetric effects means decks that use the GY to generate power become stronger than before. Exceptionally weak to burn. Also weaker to high speed decks so if the meta were to turn into more vials, I'd have to change up again.

Name: every card in the deck is proven as a 'powerfully useful' card in all previous Pox decks so this is all the oldies brought together.


for higher toughness creatures, i like to use perish and toxic deluge..perish is good against bug and jund it hits all of their creatures except for dark confidant..

[OmniStrata]

for higher toughness creatures, i like to use perish and toxic deluge..perish is good against bug and jund it hits all of their creatures except for dark confidant..

I can't run Toxic Deluge due to having 4 Poxes in the deck. I'm crazy with life loss like that. But I do have 2 Perish lying around. Luckily, the last times I played BUG and Jund, they didn't swarm me so I was able to hold them off for the win. Excess sacrifice spells works against non-swarm, like RUG Threshold, or any other tempo deck ^_^, though I'm glad I brought plagues for the damn Monastery Mentor, I really hate that guy. That and Young Pyromancer, bombs, kegs, and plagues work wonders there.

[Aronesxd]

Hey guys,

A few days ago I saw a Pox list which runs 2 Underworld Dreams maindeck and top 8 out of 36. This also didn't look like an budget version because of The Abyss and two Nether Voids in his sideboard. looks really slow but punishes cantrip's and carddraw pretty good. Some of you might say, that the Rack is a faster clock but this card need no setup discard and punishes cantriping opponents, while we're in topdeck mode, pretty good. What do you think ?
Btw in his list are also 3 Maindeck Pithing Needles.

And the second thing is what you think of the new Commander set. Any Pox-playable cards ? I dont think so, the only one which got me interessed first was one Wretched Confluence, which could be a powerhorse mid /late - game . But 5 Mana is a lot for a deck with 4 smallpox,wastelands maybe some maindeck Pox's . i dont know it has to be tested.

my 2 cents .

[OmniStrata]

Hey guys,

A few days ago I saw a Pox list which runs 2 Underworld Dreams maindeck and top 8 out of 36. This also didn't look like an budget version because of The Abyss and two Nether Voids in his sideboard. looks really slow but punishes cantrip's and carddraw pretty good. Some of you might say, that the Rack is a faster clock but this card need no setup discard and punishes cantriping opponents, while we're in topdeck mode, pretty good. What do you think ?
Btw in his list are also 3 Maindeck Pithing Needles.

And the second thing is what you think of the new Commander set. Any Pox-playable cards ? I dont think so, the only one which got me interessed first was one Wretched Confluence, which could be a powerhorse mid /late - game . But 5 Mana is a lot for a deck with 4 smallpox,wastelands maybe some maindeck Pox's . i dont know it has to be tested.

my 2 cents .

That deck's meta must be made of Jace the Mind Sculptor. MD Pithing is not a bad call when you consider every Deck to Beat has fetchlands and activated abilities. Thing is, in game 1, if you have a Pithing Needle on the play, it's 'dead' until you see your opponent's first 3 turns. Maybe less if you see something like an LED start or turn 1 Deathrite Shaman, but if they play a fetchland (score!) or an Island, you probably won't know what to name :eyebrow:.

[zenitramleirdag]

Hey guys,

A few days ago I saw a Pox list which runs 2 Underworld Dreams maindeck and top 8 out of 36. This also didn't look like an budget version because of The Abyss and two Nether Voids in his sideboard. looks really slow but punishes cantrip's and carddraw pretty good. Some of you might say, that the Rack is a faster clock but this card need no setup discard and punishes cantriping opponents, while we're in topdeck mode, pretty good. What do you think ?
Btw in his list are also 3 Maindeck Pithing Needles.

And the second thing is what you think of the new Commander set. Any Pox-playable cards ? I dont think so, the only one which got me interessed first was one Wretched Confluence, which could be a powerhorse mid /late - game . But 5 Mana is a lot for a deck with 4 smallpox,wastelands maybe some maindeck Pox's . i dont know it has to be tested.

my 2 cents .

underworld dreams is actually not bad, its good against miracles since it makes using brainstorm and jace's second ability hurt..i can also justify running pithing needle in the main maybe as a 1-of if i'm expecting the meta to be full or miracles, in fact that's actually my guess for what the pilot had in mind when he wrought his spellbase..

i personally wouldn't run underworld dreams..death and taxes, JUND, MUD, etc. all still exists in my meta so i'd rather have something in those slots that are not dead or weak against decks that don't run brainstorm, ancestral visions, etc..

[Stroggi]

Tournament Report With Mono Black Pox
Hello everyone! I went to the Grand Prix in Tacoma with Mono Black Pox this past weekend and had a great time! This was my first big Legacy tournament, so I wasn't expecting great results, and I didn't put up great results! I went 2-2-1. Even though I didn't do that well, I had a really fun time and learned a lot about my deck, and everything I had to play against. Here's my decklist:


12x Swamp
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory

3x Innocent Blood
4x Dark Ritual
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Pox
1x Spinning Darkness
1x Nether Void
3x Cursed Scroll

2x Nether Spirit

Sideboard
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Engineered Plague
2x Duress
3x Pithing Needle
1x Nether Void
2x Ensnaring Bridge


Matches

Match 1 vs. Pox!!!
Game 1: I find my opponent, sit down across from him and comment that we're both using the same sleeves. He wins the roll, puts down a Mishra's Factory and I quickly realize that not only are we both using the same sleeves, we have 90% of the same cards within those sleeves! He opened up with a lot of land destruction, Wastelands were almost always aimed at Factories since that's the only way we had to deal with them. He eventually puts down a Liliana and starts ticking up, but it isn't really doing anything helpful. I eventually draw more factories than he has Wastelands and beat him to death with those.

Sideboard: +3 Pithing Needle, -3 Innocent Blood

Game 2: This game is pretty quick. He beats me down with factories, I don't draw a meaningful way to deal with them. Onto game 3.

Sideboard: +2 Duress, -1 Spinning Darkness, -1 Hymn to Tourach

Game 3: I keep a hand with two Factories, a Pithing Needle and some Hymns. He Wastelands my Factory, then Extirpates it, stripping one out of my hand and two more out of my deck. That felt really really bad until I realized I now know what to name with my own Needle! I put it down next turn naming Factory, effectively Extirpating all of his, and then we draw-go for a bit. I get a Crucible out, ruining his Wastelands and Sinkholes. Eventually I get my Nether Spirits going and he isn't able to do anything about it.

I've never put any thought into the mirror match prior to this tournament, but now that I've played it, I have some thoughts and some theories on why I did better. First, I would have loved to have The Rack for the mirror match. It would be such a good clock against opposing Pox decks, and they would have no way to deal with it. However, I think my deck was already advantaged in the mirror for two reasons: I had 2x Nether Spirit, and I had a Crucible of Worlds. Other Pox decks can't really deal with Nether Spirit very well,and I was more likely to draw mine. Crucible means I'm always going to win against opposing Mishra's Factories if I get Wasteland recursion going. Also, Liliana seemed lackluster in this match up. I didn't cast a single Liliana any of our three games, and whenever he did, I just wasn't really bothered by her.
1-0

Match 2 vs. Lands
Game 1: This was a pretty depressing match. Game 1 he had a turn 1 Manabond, and proceeded to just lock me out with Rishadan Ports, Wasteland, and Life from the Loam. He never even drew a win-con, I just got sick of watching him Port me every turn, knew I had no real way to dealing with the lock and asked to go to game 2, where I thought I'd stand a better chance.

Sideboard: +3 Pithing Needle, +4 Leyline of the Void, -1 Spinning Darkness, -1 Nether Void, -3 Innocent Blood, -2 Dark Ritual (Probably should have found room for Ensnaring Bridge, but I didn't).

Game 2: I saw a Pithing Needle in the hand, but no Leyline of the Void. I kept it anyway, figuring I could slow him down. I wish I had mulliganed more aggressively in hindsight. He Krosan Grip-ed my first Needle. I drew another and made what I would soon learn was a mistake. At some point between him killing my first Pithing Needle, and me casting my second one, he had copied my Mishra's Factory with Thespian Stage. When I cast my second Pithing Needle, I named Thespian Stage. The problem with this was that his Stage was actually named "Mishra's Factory" and it gained the Thespian Stage ability. Because of this he was able to make a Merit Lage token and kill me next turn. If I were a better player that was a really good play from him, because by naming Mishra's Factory to turn off the Thespian Stage, I would have turned off my own Factories.
1-1

Match 3 vs. WU Stax
Before the tournament I was bemoaning how slow Pox was going to be and my brother jokingly told me "you're gonna hit nothing but Stax and go to time every round!" Imagine my horror when I ended up playing WU Stax round three! My opponent this round was Robert Brews, who had been in the feature match against Cedric Phillips round one, so if you want to see what I was up against, go watch that video.


Game 1: I've never played against any iteration of Stax before, so it took him actually playing a Smoke Stack for me to figure out what I was up against. I was not very optimistic about this match for me. I don't like my odds against grindy decks, especially decks that play a lot of permanents I can't interact with like Trinisphere and Smoke Stack. Somehow though, I managed a win, between him doing damage to himself with Ancient Tomb, and having to sacrifice his own Smoke Stack to itself, I was able to land a Nether Spirit and get him down to 1 life. I killed him with a Smallpox the last turn.

Sideboard: +4 Leyline of the Void, -1 Nether Void, -3 Dark Ritual

Game 2: I wasn't really sure how to sideboard against this deck. I had seen some creatures, Magus of the Tabernacle and an angel, I forgot which it was, so I wasn't sure I wanted to take out any Innocent Bloods or Spinning Darkness. I think I ended up bringing in Leylines to stop him recurring lands with Crucible of Worlds. I didn't know the list ran any planeswalkers, so I didn't bring in Pithing Needle. This would prove to be my downfall. I kept a hand with some Inquisitions, but he had a Leyline of Sanctity. He managed to just grind me out, putting down Ghostly Prison to slow my attackers, and killing my lands with a Crucible. Eventually he put down a Smoke Stack, ticked it up to two and just annihilated my lands. If i ever got a Crucible, which I can't recall if I did, it must have been blown up by Smoke Stack. Also at some point he casts Armageddon to great effect. Eventually he starts playing planeswalkers, after I forget to Sinkhole a City of Traitors, allowing him to land a Jace, the Mindsculptor. He started to accrue tons of card advantage, played an Elspeth, then a Tezzeret. I was staring down an army of 1/1 tokens and a Tezzeret ultimate, I proposed we go to game 3.

Sideboard: +3 Pithing Needle, -1 Dark Ritual, -2 Innocent Blood

Game 3: We had about 10 minutes left on the clock, which was really stressful. Fortunately, I saw a way out in my opening hand: Beat down. I had a Nether Spirit, and a Factory, so I was going to go aggro and try to win before he can establish a good lock. I lead with an Inquisition and see an Ensnaring Bridge and a Ghostly Prison. I take the Bridge, since I can at least pay for the Prison later. I get my Nether Spirit down, my first Factory gets hit by Wasteland, and I put my plan into effect. It almost works, I draw my second Spirit and play it. I get another factory and Play it. I've got plenty of life, and plenty of lands to pay for Ghostly Prison. He gets an Elspeth out, but my 2 Spirits a turn is able to push damage through the tokens. I get him down to 2, and he's looking at 4 guaranteed damage, even with blocking something with a Knight token. Then he top decks Armageddon. We instantly are put into turns, I draw no more lands, but he doesn't have enough turns to put out an appreciable amount of damage with his tokens, so it's a draw.
1-1-1

Match 4 vs. Shardless BUG
Game 1: This game went pretty much perfectly for me. I was able to basically Smallpox him out of the game. He was on the play, I had an Innocent Blood turn one, Smallpox turn 2, Hymn next turn and then a Liliana. Every threat he tried to stick got killed, was able to kill him with factories after that with no trouble.

Sideboard: -1 Spinning Darkness, +1 Nether Void

Game 2: This also went well for me. Was able to remove every threat he had with either Inquisition on the first turn or Innocent Blood and Smallpox. I was able to control the board with a Cursed Scroll and Liliana and eventually killed him with it in short order.
2-1-1

Match 5 vs. 4-color Delver
Game 1: This was a pretty bad game for me. I ended up having to mulligan to 5 cards, which is pretty dicey when you don't know what you're playing against. It just didn't work out though, he put threats on the board that I just couldn't keep up with. Gurmag Anglers and True Name Nemesis among others. He was playing Tome Scour though, which gave me some good information on his deck. One Tome Scour he cast put a Young Pyromancer in his graveyard, which tipped me off to the 4-color nature of his deck, since I had pretty much just seen BUG lands prior to that. Because of this, I opted to not side out my Spinning Darkness, which I would have done if it had been straight BUG.

Sideboard: Nothing changed, I wasn't really sure what to bring in, nothing seemed better than what was already in my maindeck.

Game 2: I did pretty well this game, but mostly he got unlucky. He plays two lands and misses a land drop. I Innocent Blood his first play. Turn 3 I drop a big Pox. Turn 4 I drop a Smallpox, taking out his last land, and then Dark Ritual into Nether Void. He scoops.

Game 3: Pretty even game. He plays some Deathrite Shamans and a Tarmagoyf. I'm able to barely keep up with my Removal. I play a Liliana and minus her to get rid of one of his two creatures, a Gurmag Angler and a Deathrite Shaman. He keeps the Angler, kills my Liliana with it next turn, and rides it to victory, never casting another creature. My brother pointed out that I had pitched a Smallpox to another Smallpox earlier in the game, and that if I had ditched a land or something else, I may have been able to kill that Angler. I guess I need to learn to conserve my sac effects better.
2-2-1

That was the last round I played. There was no hope of making day 2 at that point, and I wanted to hang out with my friends the rest of the day. I was overall fairly happy with my deck. There were a few games where I would have liked a Ratchet Bomb though. I think if I had been making better decisions, I could have gone farther. The Crucible didn't come up as often as I thought it would, but it felt pretty good when I did get it going. It makes me feel much more confident casting Smallpox. Playing big Pox over an extra Spinning Darkness felt good, I was never wanting for the Spinning Darkness, though that was probably because I didn't really hit any match ups where it was good, like Burn, D&T, Goblins, Merfolk... I think it was a good call though. Pox is a good card, and Spinning Darkness doesn't really hit anything useful in Shardless BUG it feels like, and there was plenty of that going around.

Anyway, thanks for reading. Hopefully I can pick up some Chains of Mephistopheles or the Abyss before next time.

[Hardcore]

Thank you for the report!

Was it worthwhile to run four dark rituals?

[hpl324]

good report !!!

[Stroggi]

Thank you for the report!

Was it worthwhile to run four dark rituals?

I'd say yes. They help a lot when you need to cast a Liliana or something else after a Smallpox. They also help a lot getting Crucible out fast. I think the only reason I sided them out against Stax was they were going to be hit by Chalice anyway, and I knew it was going to be a long grindy game.

[OmniStrata]

Am I seeing things or is that the original Reid Duke list [main deck] when he won with Pox in a significant tournament? :cool:

Ah Crucible. Never mind. 1 swamp for 1 cruicible sounds good. Though I'm beginning to think that the Crucible is better for games where there is no time limit. [extra long casual games vs. 50 min. matches]

[Stroggi]

Am I seeing things or is that the original Reid Duke list [main deck] when he won with Pox in a significant tournament? :cool:

Ah Crucible. Never mind. 1 swamp for 1 cruicible sounds good. Though I'm beginning to think that the Crucible is better for games where there is no time limit. [extra long casual games vs. 50 min. matches]

Don't fix what isn't broken! The Crucible was kind of a last minute inclusion. I was either going to play another Nether Void or a Night of Souls' Betrayal in that place. I decided on the Crucible because two Nether Voids seems like overkill and I was expecting Shardless BUG to be around, and Night of Souls' Betrayal doesn't do much against that deck. If people were still playing Young Pyromancers a ton like before Dig got banned, I'd have stuck with NoSB. Crucible does a lot of things that Pox wants: It makes Mishra's Factory into Nether Spirit #3-6; it makes Wasteland a valid win condition against mana intensive decks; it compliments Nether Void quite nicely; and probably most relevant to the majority of games, it breaks the symmetry of Smallpox, Pox, and Liliana of the Veil.

That being said, I only got to use it effectively in the Pox mirror match, in which it was quite good. I don't think Crucible is too slow to be worth it. Even getting to play one land off it after casting a Smallpox makes it worth it. I didn't have many time issues in my matches, even when I was winning slowly with a Nether Spirit or something. In fact the Pox mirror went to game 3 and we finished with ten minutes to spare! The only issue with time I had was against Stax, and I feel like that was unavoidable.

[Hardcore]

A card that should be effective against loam decks is the Ankh of Mishra.
I am thinking of running that and Chalice of the Void.

[guybrush3]

WHAT ABOUT THIS LIST?
I'LL PLAY TEST IT TONIGHT

//Win Conditions (8)
4 HOWLTOOTH HOLLOW
1 Nether Spirit
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

//Discard (10)
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 THOUGHTSIZE

//Land Destruction (3)
3 Wasteland


// Pox FX (12)
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 ABRUPT DECAY

//Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

//CONTROL (4)
3 SENSEI ..OR sylvan
1 LIFE FROM THE LOAM

//Mana (4)
4 Dark Ritual

LANDS 12
BLACK & SPLASH GREEN

3 SLOTS LEFT TO CHOOSE, UP TO U. :wink:

[Hardcore]

+ 3 crop rotation

[OmniStrata]

Go 1 Sensei's top, 1 Sylvan Library, and 4 Sinkhole, oh and that 4th Wasteland. :cool: Get medieval on their arse.

[guybrush3]

+ 3 crop rotation

not sure i want to go for Crop cuz i actually don't want to go in the dark depths deck combo style. Would like to keep the pox build since i played it for ages and wait till i can exile emrakul with hideaway. I was thinking that since he is one major win condition (remember u will also have the extra turn via hideaway) that ppl will start not playing their cards when they start to know how the deck works (even if most of the times it will be a surprise) .
Raven's crime perhaps could be a good addition.
I'm not a huge fan of sinkhole. I would go rather with something that discards both hands ...don't know.

[mykatdied]

WHAT ABOUT THIS LIST?
I'LL PLAY TEST IT TONIGHT

//Win Conditions (8)
4 HOWLTOOTH HOLLOW
1 Nether Spirit
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

//Discard (10)
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 THOUGHTSIZE

//Land Destruction (4)
3 Wasteland


// Pox FX (12)
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 ABRUPT DECAY

//Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

//CONTROL (3)
3 SENSEI ..OR sylvan
1 LIFE FROM THE LOAM

//Mana (4)
4 Dark Ritual

LANDS 13
BLACK & SPLASH GREEN

3 SLOTS LEFT TO CHOOSE, UP TO U. :wink:

You Definitely want raven's crime and maybe an entomb or 2 so you can assure that you can force a situation that puts both players hellbent other wise hollow doesn't get there. On the flip side that plan has a huge flaw in it if you want the deck to run loam and that is Emrakul. His shuffle effect doesn't really allow you to take advantage of that kind of engine if you have 3 in your deck. Maybe I'm missing something but you're likely not hard casting Emrakul.

[guybrush3]

You Definitely want raven's crime and maybe an entomb or 2 so you can assure that you can force a situation that puts both players hellbent other wise hollow doesn't get there. On the flip side that plan has a huge flaw in it if you want the deck to run loam and that is Emrakul. His shuffle effect doesn't really allow you to take advantage of that kind of engine if you have 3 in your deck. Maybe I'm missing something but you're likely not hard casting Emrakul.

Yes raven deserves 2 spots. I think entomb is bad to raven crime it. No need for it. Even if it has a synergy with nether spirit. Yes emrakul will most of the time keep your graveyard empty since you will be discarding it with liliana and other stuff cuz you don't want it in your hand but on the top of your deck. So life from the loam doesn't actually fit. To achieve that maybe x1 living wish is better or even as someone just wrote, Crop rotation. He's right indeed. And with emrakul you can recover your hideaway land from the cemetery to then crop them. Tabernacle $$$ will be also a perfect card of course .

The point of this Emrapox deck is to control the board and wait till u can sylvan/sensei emrakul and cast it for free. It's a matter of time not of doing it fast. Just to point it out.
In fact instead of sense's or sylvan Scroll Rack will help you to put back emrakul but still not sure how strong it nowadays.
And of course I'm open for suggestions. :cool:

What about x2 of these?
Bottomless Pit opposite of phyrexian arena and random
they look quite awesome.
By the way it will be hard to cast emrakul during an opponent turn since he will keep the x1draw card in his hand and we play sorcery speed spells. Could that be a problem? I don't think there will be a difference if casting it during your turn after a Liliana discarding free effect or a spell casted before activating hideaway ability.
I can see problems against opponents who plays SENSEI (most of them!) since they can tap it in response and you will not have any instant speed spells to let them discard it...mmm will u be able to resolve the tap hideaway ability before? what goes on the stax first?

[mykatdied]

Yes raven deserves 2 spots. I think entomb is bad to raven crime it. No need for it. Even if it has a synergy with nether spirit. Yes emrakul will most of the time keep your graveyard empty since you will be discarding it with liliana and other stuff cuz you don't want it in your hand but on the top of your deck. So life from the loam doesn't actually fit. To achieve that maybe x1 living wish is better or even as someone just wrote, Crop rotation. He's right indeed. And with emrakul you can recover your hideaway land from the cemetery to then crop them. Tabernacle $$$ will be also a perfect card of course .

The point of this Emrapox deck is to control the board and wait till u can sylvan/sensei emrakul and cast it for free. It's a matter of time not of doing it fast. Just to point it out.
In fact instead of sense's or sylvan Scroll Rack will help you to put back emrakul but still not sure how strong it nowadays.
And of course I'm open for suggestions. :cool:

What about x2 of these?
Bottomless Pit opposite of phyrexian arena and random
they look quite awesome.
By the way it will be hard to cast emrakul during an opponent turn since he will keep the x1draw card in his hand and we play sorcery speed spells. Could that be a problem? I don't think there will be a difference if casting it during your turn after a Liliana discarding free effect or a spell casted before activating hideaway ability.
I can see problems against opponents who plays SENSEI (most of them!) since they can tap it in response and you will not have any instant speed spells to let them discard it...mmm will u be able to resolve the tap hideaway ability before? what goes on the stax first?

My experience with pox is that the longer it takes to close the game, the more likely you are to lose control and end up losing. Just my view on it.

[guybrush3]

My experience with pox is that the longer it takes to close the game, the more likely you are to lose control and end up losing. Just my view on it.

Well it's not a fast deck. Since you usually kill with mishars and spirits... However, usually pox deck with Lilianas helps you go pretty through the half of the deck before winning and not losing control. But maybe I'm wrong.

[Fox]

Skip the bottomless pit, you have much more upside with a card like Gibbering Descent and abusing upkeep skipping, plus it's also a wincon that lilly helps you cast.

[Chatto]

My experience with pox is that the longer it takes to close the game, the more likely you are to lose control and end up losing. Just my view on it.

Agreed. I love this deck, but would not leave home without DD/ Stage-combo.

[Mr. Safety]

My experience with pox is that the longer it takes to close the game, the more likely you are to lose control and end up losing. Just my view on it.

Agreed. Create a lock and land a finisher seems best. This is why I feel crop rotation combo with depths is the way to go. Otherwise there is no reason to go green, monoblack is better (imho) because you don't have durdely loams that slow you down. Abrupt decay isn't worth the splash alone, not even library (use top.) If you are committed to loam/decay then you really have two directions you can go:

1) entomb to enable broken control combos (crime + loam, waste + loam, find a worm harvest, setup a draw engine with loam + cycle lands.)

2) crop rotation with depths, which also gives you a lands-like toolbox to fight various matchups (bojuka bog, tabernacle, glacial chasm)

[guybrush3]

Agreed. Create a lock and land a finisher seems best. This is why I feel crop rotation combo with depths is the way to go. Otherwise there is no reason to go green, monoblack is better (imho) because you don't have durdely loams that slow you down. Abrupt decay isn't worth the splash alone, not even library (use top.) If you are committed to loam/decay then you really have two directions you can go:

1) entomb to enable broken control combos (crime + loam, waste + loam, find a worm harvest, setup a draw engine with loam + cycle lands.)

2) crop rotation with depths, which also gives you a lands-like toolbox to fight various matchups (bojuka bog, tabernacle, glacial chasm)

mmm yeah these are 2 famous ways u can play the deck of course. I agree with this. I played Depths when it came out (it was quite different at the time). What I was trying to do is to control the board and finish with the land+emrakul finisher (not sure it works but it will be fun to make that happen) .
Loam won't be in the deck cuz of emrakul as we just pointed out in a previous post, crop rotation will. I think the green splash doesn't create problems with mana. Two colors in a pox deck are always NOT a problem and abrupt decay helps a lot with non discarded early annoying permanents. About sylvan/sensei I will say...whatever. :)
ps: Liliana Vess x1? tutors emrakul ,discard engine and...yeah COST 5 mana, crap :)

[jredelstein]

mmm yeah these are 2 famous ways u can play the deck of course. I agree with this. I played Depths when it came out (it was quite different at the time). What I was trying to do is to control the board and finish with the land+emrakul finisher (not sure it works but it will be fun to make that happen) .
Loam won't be in the deck cuz of emrakul as we just pointed out in a previous post, crop rotation will. I think the green splash doesn't create problems with mana. Two colors in a pox deck are always NOT a problem and abrupt decay helps a lot with non discarded early annoying permanents. About sylvan/sensei I will say...whatever. :)
ps: Liliana Vess x1? tutors emrakul ,discard engine and...yeah COST 5 mana, crap :)

As much as I love GB Pox and personally feel it is usually a better choice, I think this deck is better suited as a mono black build. You are not using Green to its potential if you are not heavy into Loam, Crop Rotation, and abrupt decay. I play 27-29 lands depending on the day and I sometime have color issues, make sure it is worth it.

In order to activated the "all players hellbent" clause on Hollow you want to be heavier discard than most Pox. Pox attacks all resources but you want to focus on hands, if you spend a card like sinkhole attacking mana that is more cards stranded in their hand and one less card for you to make them discard with. Liliana Vess fits the deck well setting up Hollow but Sensei's Top can do similar things for less mana, I don't think you are running enough mana for either right now, Top is the most mana hungry cmc 1 card every printed.

If you are really keen on splashing I think Blue may be better, it gives you more ways to set up Hollow with brainstorm or Jace, it also give you Propaganda to stall their creatures without shutting off your Emrakul.

You could also go more combo with a red splash for Stronghold Gambit, your discard can clear the way, in addition to being great against storm or lands. You can also play Grave Titan for a big threat that can be hard cast in a pinch.

Either way I think you need to commit to a splash if you want to go that way, both getting full value of the extra color and making sure your mana can support it.

[guybrush3]

As much as I love GB Pox and personally feel it is usually a better choice, I think this deck is better suited as a mono black build. You are not using Green to its potential if you are not heavy into Loam, Crop Rotation, and abrupt decay. I play 27-29 lands depending on the day and I sometime have color issues, make sure it is worth it.

In order to activated the "all players hellbent" clause on Hollow you want to be heavier discard than most Pox. Pox attacks all resources but you want to focus on hands, if you spend a card like sinkhole attacking mana that is more cards stranded in their hand and one less card for you to make them discard with. Liliana Vess fits the deck well setting up Hollow but Sensei's Top can do similar things for less mana, I don't think you are running enough mana for either right now, Top is the most mana hungry cmc 1 card every printed.

If you are really keen on splashing I think Blue may be better, it gives you more ways to set up Hollow with brainstorm or Jace, it also give you Propaganda to stall their creatures without shutting off your Emrakul.

You could also go more combo with a red splash for Stronghold Gambit, your discard can clear the way, in addition to being great against storm or lands. You can also play Grave Titan for a big threat that can be hard cast in a pinch.

Either way I think you need to commit to a splash if you want to go that way, both getting full value of the extra color and making sure your mana can support it.

mmm if I'm going to play blue i think I'm gonna play it only for those 3 cards u just mentioned and for nothing else. Brain and jace work well but I'm still not sure about it. Abrupt decay is so strong. I don't need blue for propaganda when i can play ensnaring bridge. And if I go blue it will better to play show and tell than stronghold. I can see working a package of x4 brainstorm x2 jace and x2 show and tell instead of the x2crop rotation + x4abrupt + x2sylvan green pack.
About the sinkholes; i'm not playing them for the reasons u just said. But still, i'm considering the POX deck build since 80% of the cards are played in POX decks :)

[mykatdied]

So I know I never really pop in here and comment. I saw a few things about U splash builds. I figured I may share this build with you all. I tend to stick to the mtgsalvation forums and a few years back some ideas about UB and BUG came up. Well I recently started testing blue cards in general and decided to test them within pox. I call this build:

Shardless Pox (60)

Lands 23
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Lumbering Falls
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Creatures 6
3 Shardless Agent
3 Tombstalker

Spells 31
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancestral Vision
3 Brainstorm
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Innocent Blood
3 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard 15
1 Academy Ruins
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
1 Maze of Ith
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Toxic Deluge

I wrote an article about it as well. You can view it here. I am curious to get feedback. http://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2015/11/from-the-sideboard-shardless-pox/

[rlesko]

I wouldn't run Mox Diamond in a Cascade deck, but thats just me. Cascading into Smallpox seems pretty cool, kind of like casting Smallpox with a Young Pyromancer on board.

[mykatdied]

I wouldn't run Mox Diamond in a Cascade deck, but thats just me. Cascading into Smallpox seems pretty cool, kind of like casting Smallpox with a Young Pyromancer on board.

Very similar. It has been delightful. I have had a few awkward moments with Cascade into Diamond but for the most part with Library and Brainstorm it has been a non issue.

[guybrush3]

JUST FELT IN LOVE WITH :

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/sf/sf180_strangle.jpg


// Multi FX POX core (land dest, creature, discard)
4 Smallpox - does everything
1 Pox the Mum

//Win Conditions
2 Tomb of urami kills with risk
1 reanimate kills with fun
1 tombstalker kills

//Discard
4 Inquisition of Kozilek slow non land under 3cmc down
4 Hymn to Tourach slow everything down
2 encroach slow mana down

//Land Destruction /Denial
4 Wasteland slow both down for 0cmc
4 Sinkhole slow mana down
4 Stranglehold shuts down multiple mana sources
2 pardic miner can't describe:)

//control the board
1 crucible of worlds recovering

//Planeswalkers
3 Liliana of the Veil the BOSS

//Mana
4 Dark Ritual allows you fantastic turn 1 and stranglehold turn2
4 bloodstained mire
2 mountain
4 swamp
4 badlands
1 cabal pit with crucible it could do something good
1 barbarian ring with crucible it could do something good [/cards]

I have left a x3 slot for u to add :) maybe 3 sensei or 3 crack the hearth

Everything started trying to build a land destruction deck for legacy. But as we know with so small cmc drops it's quite impossible to play these days. And when I tried to imagine the match up it was always in a bad result. Sinkhole and other land destruction cards that cost 2 or 3 aren't just the same. And you will always be 1 turn behind (especially if he starts and if he plays mana creatures-> like everyone.
However I'm posting this in the pox thread cuz in the end it's about destroying the opponent resources, starting from lands. It's quite similar to a pox deck but with a red splash cuz of stranglehold . I think it really works well in a pox deck with dark ritual. Turn 2 close the water of the opponent fetches. I mean who doesn't play them? I mean is just too good and asymmetrical. However it deserves a teste.

I really like pardic miner as a sinkhole/orimchant card and it might deserves a spot but for now i'll have to play test it, maybe is just crap.
I added a reanimate as a win condition since the opponent will be discarding stuff via hymn and blablabla + u can target your tomb or Miner for one more land denial turn for1cmc.
Trini and crucible in small copies make their business.


A must card in side would be BOIL.

[OmniStrata]

I'd suggest Solfatara and Turf Wound since they replace themselves. Granted, they're one more mana, but you do have Sinkholes to supplement speed right?

Aside from Dredge and a few 1 land combo decks, I find LD to be effective if you have enough, hence why my current build now runs 4 Pox. I just couldn't find a better LD for 3 mana. Considered Blight [ew] and Rancid Earth but for the mana and defensive power that Pox brings [kill that threat], it gives heavy land decks like Miracles a run for its money.

I too love LD and am of the philosophy that if you're running a traditional land killer, you need to play threats and pound their life totals first, THEN keep them on 0 mana for as long as you can, so Dark Ritual summoned creatures, or suspend, or 1-2 cmc drops become necessary. Pox however, is not traditional and just kills everything, which is also good. :smile:

[guybrush3]

I'd suggest Solfatara and Turf Wound since they replace themselves. Granted, they're one more mana, but you do have Sinkholes to supplement speed right?

Aside from Dredge and a few 1 land combo decks, I find LD to be effective if you have enough, hence why my current build now runs 4 Pox. I just couldn't find a better LD for 3 mana. Considered Blight [ew] and Rancid Earth but for the mana and defensive power that Pox brings [kill that threat], it gives heavy land decks like Miracles a run for its money.

I too love LD and am of the philosophy that if you're running a traditional land killer, you need to play threats and pound their life totals first, THEN keep them on 0 mana for as long as you can, so Dark Ritual summoned creatures, or suspend, or 1-2 cmc drops become necessary. Pox however, is not traditional and just kills everything, which is also good. :smile:

I considered them but in the end they are just to slow at 3cmc. Even if you draw I think it will be too late...I would rather play red small small POX :cool: tremble ,Crack the Earth or raze (good cuz u target a basic but no good cuz if they counter it u r fuckdUP)...And when you have three mana you just want to cast crucible or a liliana or a trini or even another hymn to touch to gain card advantage and then hit them again on turn 4. Sinkhole supplements speed but he needs help. And since there aren't any sinkhole copies around (no they are not, blight and rancid are, again to slow) then that's why you slow opponent down with smallpox and other pox deck stuff. However here we run 13 LD (sink,small and big pox,waste) + 2 Miners (have to test them) .
I think what i'm trying to do is to pox them like a pox deck but in another way we shut all their mana down in a pretty good way. Stranglehold really is amazing in legacy.
Pox is awesome cuz in pox deck is asymettrical. Maybe I should run 2. 4 are too much cuz i want to control the board at one point with my mana.

Boom Bust x4 would be nice cuz they cost 2cmc and act as a sinkhole if you target a fetch land. In that case you could be able to play a turn 2 Boom tapping 1 land and 1 chrome/diamond mox while targeting your second land just dropped and sacrifice it for another land. Ofc we should play moxes ... or simian spirit guide. But in this way if u are sure to play a lot of fetches is like having x8 sinkholes on turn 2 ( helps with % chance to LD ) . Mox could be good also to avoid smallpox bad effects on you. Can dark ritual and mox x8 go togheter in a deck? mmmm
example1:
turn1 - land+ chrome mox= sinkhole
turn2 - drop fetchland+ boom or sinkhole = more % to do this now plus 1 mana available to cast a 1cmc spell . Dark ritual and trini? dark ritual and whatever? or just a inquisition.
or also example2
turn1 - land+dark ritual=sinkhole+1cmc free
turn2 drop chrome mox + fetchland = boom or sinkhole

wanna play without discarding ? lotus petal might be better. gives you black and red.
This way u will have x8 sinkholes effects at 2cmc in the deck. Pretty good i think.
And if you won't have a fetch land u can still slow down the game symmetrically.
Remember that dark ritual with stranglehold won't be a top bad card cuz u will be short on mana too cuz of poxes.

[zenitramleirdag]

So I know I never really pop in here and comment. I saw a few things about U splash builds. I figured I may share this build with you all. I tend to stick to the mtgsalvation forums and a few years back some ideas about UB and BUG came up. Well I recently started testing blue cards in general and decided to test them within pox. I call this build:

Shardless Pox (60)

Lands 23
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Lumbering Falls
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Creatures 6
3 Shardless Agent
3 Tombstalker

Spells 31
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancestral Vision
3 Brainstorm
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Innocent Blood
3 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard 15
1 Academy Ruins
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
1 Maze of Ith
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Toxic Deluge

I wrote an article about it as well. You can view it here. I am curious to get feedback. http://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2015/11/from-the-sideboard-shardless-pox/

.i like the tombstalkers in your build..with all that disruption, its bound to resolve..its like "kicking-the-table-and-then-kill-your-opponent-while-he's-down" strategy..and yes, the diamonds would've been awkward with shardless agent if it weren't for the brainstorms and library so good deckbuilding there..would you consider running top too? maybe a 1/1 split between it and the library?
what match-ups did you consider when you added the singleton academy ruins at the side? was it there to recur the engineered explosives? what do you think of buried ruin?

[slave]

How do you guys play against Dredge?
Tactics from the board?
And what does your win% look like from game1 compared to game2/3?

[OmniStrata]

How do you guys play against Dredge?
Tactics from the board?
And what does your win% look like from game1 compared to game2/3?

I just concede game 1 once I recognize their opening land, or die to an LED turn-1 kill. The less information they have, the easier it is to board against them and they can't board against you cause they don't know what GY hate you can bring. Saves time as well. I run Extirpates and Leyline of the Void. Leyline is the auto-win against some Dredge decks (laugh in the face of mana-less dredge)

Game 1 is 0%. Pox helps dredge too much.

[coricho]

How do you guys play against Dredge?
Tactics from the board?
And what does your win% look like from game1 compared to game2/3?

I'm on monoblack and I run one ensnaring bridge mainboard, so if I have it in my opening hand along with
a dark ritual AND I can empty my hand fast enough then I will play the game 1.
If not (99.9% of the time), I concede at the moment I know opponent is on Dredge.


Game 2-3 I board in
4 LotV : Against reanimator and dredge , I won't keep a hand without graveyard hate anyway, so Leyline is my choice for that reason alone.
3 Engineered plagues
1 Ensnaring bridge (I also play 1 mainboard)
1 NoSB (I also play 1 mainboard )



Out : Cards that make them choose the card they discard, Land destruction, taxing effects(trinisphere, Nether Void)

I mulligan into Leyline. That usually buys enough time to slam E-Plague on zombies, NoSB and ensnaring bridge.
They can't answer ALL these lock pieces so they lose, locked out of the game.

[mykatdied]

.i like the tombstalkers in your build..with all that disruption, its bound to resolve..its like "kicking-the-table-and-then-kill-your-opponent-while-he's-down" strategy..and yes, the diamonds would've been awkward with shardless agent if it weren't for the brainstorms and library so good deckbuilding there..would you consider running top too? maybe a 1/1 split between it and the library?
what match-ups did you consider when you added the singleton academy ruins at the side? was it there to recur the engineered explosives? what do you think of buried ruin?

Tombstalker has been awesome. I actually added a 3rd copy for the increased draw reliability. There have been so many games where he just closes it out quickly and my opponent can't do anything about it. The flying is extremely relevant there as well.

Unfortunately I have had 3 instances where I cascaded blind into Mox Diamond. It is certainly even worse when I don't at least have a land in hand that I can pitch to it. Overall I haven't been upset or disappointed in the explosive plays that Diamond offers. Often I have had turn 1 Library, Hymn, etc into turn 2 Shardless, cascade into relevant spells.

I am not a fan of Sensei's Divining Top for the fact that it turns into a mana sink and we are still pox after all, so at times mana can be tough. I like Library for the fact that I can drop it and invest no further mana to fix my top decks, and it allows me to draw extra cards in slow grindy games where I can easily use my life total as a resource.

I was testing Academy Ruins specifically to reuse Shardless Agents as well as EE. I have had a few matches where it was relevant, but not too many. It may be incorrect to run, but it seemed worth it. I don't like Buried Ruin for the fact that it requires itself to be sacrificed. I find you have to use Life from the Loam as well as a whole land drop to get any real value from it and that is what turns me off to it. Ruins at least can activate for the same mana/land investment and doesn't require me to dredge more, or lose a land drop.

[jredelstein]

How do you guys play against Dredge?
Tactics from the board?
And what does your win% look like from game1 compared to game2/3?

I play GB pox, main board crop rotation for bojuka bog, and the interaction of Mishra's factory and wasteland (or cabal pit or smallpox or liliana) is really good at keeping them off bridge from below. Oh yeah and Tabernacle!

One of my good friends play Dredge religiously and say that his match-up against my GB Pox is one of the worst game 1 match-ups he has ever played.

[Toxboy]

Vs dredge i as a GB Pox player take in taxing effects, if I actually manage to land my graveyard hate and a sphere of resistance they usually can't cast another spell that game

[jredelstein]

Pox 16th place at SCG 5k 12/6/15

Very light green splash for Abrupt Decay and Choke, I assume this is a consideration for the Miracles match-up

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=95889

Pox - Jason Deiss

16th Place at StarCityGames.com Premier IQ on 12/6/2015

Legacy

Creatures (1)
1 Nether Spirit

Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (24)
1 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
1 Cabal Pit
2 Marsh Flats
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth


Spells (31)
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible Of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Mox Diamond
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Dark Ritual
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Grim Tutor
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize
1 Nether Void


Sideboard
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Pithing Needle
2 Trinisphere
2 Choke
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Nether Void

[OmniStrata]

Wow, a Golgari flavored Pox WITHOUT Life from the Loam? A single black sun's?

Wait a sec, if it's the last card in your library, for whatever reason, if you can keep casting it, even for 0 counters, does that mean you'd never die to going 'brain dead'? Assuming enemy has no way to force you to draw cards, or he's not smart and won't brainstorm you.

I really like this build, in fact, I could figure out a way to make it mono-black with minor changes since Abrupt Decay and Choke are the big greens here.

[jredelstein]

Wow, a Golgari flavored Pox WITHOUT Life from the Loam? A single black sun's?

Wait a sec, if it's the last card in your library, for whatever reason, if you can keep casting it, even for 0 counters, does that mean you'd never die to going 'brain dead'? Assuming enemy has no way to force you to draw cards, or he's not smart and won't brainstorm you.

Not 100% sure what you mean 'brain dead', but yes you could hypothetically just cast Black Sun Zenith and reshuffle it into you library every turn and not die to mill, seems like a corner case. They have to counter black sun or mill it directly into you library to stop that. Also not sure what you mean by 'brainstorm you' since there are not many cards that say target player draws beyond Ancestral Recall.

Maybe you are not referring to mill. in which case ignore the above.


I really like this build, in fact, I could figure out a way to make it mono-black with minor changes since Abrupt Decay and Choke are the big greens here.

Abrupt Decay and Choke seem to be primarily for the Miracles match-up so if you plan to make a mono black version I'd focus on that match-up when replacing those cards. The 4th Mox Diamond to help with more turn 1 Chalice of the Void may be good. Extra Chains of Mephistopheles seems good too, especially when you are playing it turn 1. Your favorite tech of Contamination may be a good substitute in the Choke sideboard slot.

[OmniStrata]

Not 100% sure what you mean 'brain dead', but yes you could hypothetically just cast Black Sun Zenith and reshuffle it into you library every turn and not die to mill, seems like a corner case. They have to counter black sun or mill it directly into you library to stop that. Also not sure what you mean by 'brainstorm you' since there are not many cards that say target player draws beyond Ancestral Recall.

Maybe you are not referring to mill. in which case ignore the above.



Abrupt Decay and Choke seem to be primarily for the Miracles match-up so if you plan to make a mono black version I'd focus on that match-up when replacing those cards. The 4th Mox Diamond to help with more turn 1 Chalice of the Void may be good. Extra Chains of Mephistopheles seems good too, especially when you are playing it turn 1. Your favorite tech of Contamination may be a good substitute in the Choke sideboard slot.

I'm saying brain-dead as in mind sculpted. :eek: Can't draw any more cards but your Black Sun? Sure, hopefully you have so much land by that point you can melt any threat they cast, unless they instant miracle you [god I hate that loophole]. Milling applies too, but milling will kill you if they can do it on command, say, on your Draw step. It would be very amusing to defeat an opponent because you just kept looping a Zenith melting any creature they cast and win the game cause they ran out of deck. :tongue:

I've been able to squeeze back two Crucible of Worlds and I think I can get Contamination back as well... :eek: Of all the cards in my collection, Contamination is the last thing in the universe my Miracles rival wants to see. At least with Choke, he can still cast his white spells or wait on a big Entreat. With Contamination, unless he has his GY hate, it's instant loss. He can't even cast his Council's Judgement or Detention Sphere to stop me. Muahahah! :cool:

[Hardcore]

Expensive cards are useful vs miracle. They tend to rely too much on counterbalance, and they run mostly cheap spells.

[zenitramleirdag]

Expensive cards are useful vs miracle. They tend to rely too much on counterbalance, and they run mostly cheap spells.

i'm not sure where you're going with this one, are you suggesting we run more expensive spells in our deck to improve our match-up against it?

personally, i find pithing needles on top very good against them..an early resolved trinisphere also hurts them a lot..i like running a pair of tombstalkers to clock them; oftentimes, relying on just scrolls or factories to bring em' down allows them time to recover..

[zenitramleirdag]

Expensive cards are useful vs miracle. They tend to rely too much on counterbalance, and they run mostly cheap spells.

i'm not sure where you're going with this one, are you suggesting we run more expensive spells in our deck to improve our match-up against it?

personally, i find pithing needles on top very good against them..an early resolved trinisphere also hurts them a lot..i like running a pair of tombstalkers to clock them; oftentimes, relying on just scrolls or factories to bring em' down allows them time to recover..

[Hardcore]

Yes, the spells pox play tend to be more expensive. This is something of an advantage in this specific match-up. Also Miracle players usually board out Force of Will because we play Hymn to Tourach. This plays even more into our hands. Pox often get resolved.

[OmniStrata]

That goes against the Legacy protocol of a cheaper mana curve and running more expensive spells can cause issues vs. low mana speed decks besides Miracles.

I like it. :laugh:

Miracles goes long and we have the resources to go long as well. Problem is the inevitability and speed of a top decked Entreat the Angels. Or instant speed Entreat with SDT. E. Bridge is a god send.

I actually never put too much faith in Black Sun Zenith due to mana cost, but at turn 15+, I always find myself with 6 or more lands so melting or seriously nerfing anything on the field could work. Fact it comes back some time and more often the longer the game continues could be an advantage, though in a tournament where time is limited, that may not be worth it. BSZ is also hard to Counter-Top since the mana cost can be pumped up to well above the Miracle Mana curve.

[Hardcore]

Yes, a quick Entreat the Angels is nasty. (My latest Miracle opponent boarded them out, however, which i think was a mistake.)

Stoping Miracle is difficult. I have needles but perhaps i am better served by something that do damage.
I actually brought Jinxed Idol to a tourney once for this job. I recall it worked but not if i won the duel...

[zenitramleirdag]

Also Miracle players usually board out Force of Will because we play Hymn to Tourach. This plays even more into our hands. Pox often get resolved.

i think i may have to disagree with this one, i have a miracles player in my play group and he never boards out his FoW's against me coz' he wants to counter that first turn liliana via dark ritual, or that first turn pithing needle on top or jace..

they do board out some copies of StP's because our creatures can dodge it..thats why a pair of tombstalkers in the board can be deadly..i prefer playing them in the main though..

but he's just one player i often test with, any pox player here who also has an experience on piloting miracles? can we verify this? does MIRACLES board out their forces of will against pox?

[Hardcore]

As a rule, yes. Decks that run FoW (not necessarily miracles) tend to board them out. They see they do not need to stop a combo deck, and figure the cards are a weakness in a grindy game against a card advantage deck.
They can board in other counters of course, like a flusterstorm or two.

It comes down to experience. I change my deck so often that my meta cannot predict it, and unlike you friend, they get no Pox experience to help them in their decision making.

[jredelstein]

As a rule, yes. Decks that run FoW (not necessarily miracles) tend to board them out. They see they do not need to stop a combo deck, and figure the cards are a weakness in a grindy game against a card advantage deck.
They can board in other counters of course, like a flusterstorm or two.

It comes down to experience. I change my deck so often that my meta cannot predict it, and unlike you friend, they get no Pox experience to help them in their decision making.

I have played just about all these decks, a Miracles player should not being taking out FoW against a pox deck, the match-up comes down to a few high impact cards like Liliana, Chains of Mephestopheles, or Pithing Needle. After those cards hit the field their only answer is council's judgment or maybe wear//tear. My game play against miracles is to overload their council's judgment.

Decks like delver on the other hand should take out FoW because they want to win the card advantage war and FoW is card disadvantage.

[Hardcore]

Having liliana, needle and chains in play is not game winning in itself, and thus the Miracle player does not need to board in hate for them.
A top decked Entreat the Angels is still GG. Or SFM, for Batterskul, out of sideboard.

It is worse for us: Jace is, unlike liliana, a win con in itself:p and it is hard to handle the other threats.

[jredelstein]

Having liliana, needle and chains in play is not game winning in itself, and thus the Miracle player does not need to board in hate for them.
A top decked Entreat the Angels is still GG. Or SFM, for Batterskul, out of sideboard.

It is worse for us: Jace is, unlike liliana, a win con in itself:p and it is hard to handle the other threats.

Smallpox, wasteland and ultimateing Liliana keep them off land drops for entreat, chains makes it difficult for them to miracle outside of their turn and I also play green so I have abrupt decay, garruk relentless, and maelstrom pulse the latter 2 beat jace pretty well.

Use wastelands on dual land so that your smallpox take out basics, I have won many games against miracles to them fetching and realizing they don't have enough mana to cast a jace or meaningful entreat.

If they sideboard into a Stoneforge mystic package against a small pox deck they are an idiot and you should win easy.

[Hardcore]

SFM is a problem for me.
If i got a threat in play i may force them to gamble that i have no answer, but otherwise they simply play it when ready.

[apocolyps6]

Melissa DeTora featured that decklist on the mothership (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/daily-deck/legacy-pox-2015-12-10)

The Grim Tutor got me thinking, what percentage of the time is Infernal Tutor bad?

I'm sorry if this topic has been discussed before but this deck has (or can play) a bunch of awesome high-impact 1ofs and the gameplan already involves both players being hellbent.

[jredelstein]

Melissa DeTora featured that decklist on the mothership (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/daily-deck/legacy-pox-2015-12-10)

The Grim Tutor got me thinking, what percentage of the time is Infernal Tutor bad?

I'm sorry if this topic has been discussed before but this deck has (or can play) a bunch of awesome high-impact 1ofs and the gameplan already involves both players being hellbent.

It is definitely easy to be hellbent is any Pox deck with cheap spells and discard outlets like smallpox and liliana.

I could image a common situation is that you are hellbent casting a tutor (Grim or Infernal) with an active Liliana and not enough mana to cast the tutor and what ever you searched for so you'd have to be able to plus liliana first then cast a hellbent tutor then cast what you searched for the next turn before plusing liliana again, with grim tutor you don't need to worry about that potential awkwardness. So I'd think Grim Tutor is better but that is part of why it has a price tag 25 times Infernal Tutor.

We have discussed this before and Omnistrata pointed out that tutors are not mana efficient and potentially card disadvantage, both are valid points so if we want a tutor in the deck it need to be a high enough impact play to overcome this. A good example is how high impact Crop Rotation for Tabernacle is in a GB Pox deck. Another way to justify it is to give us more versatility which as you pointed out being able to play "a bunch of awesome high-impact 1ofs"

I wish there were more local legacy events so that I could try out more of these things.

[mykatdied]

I think more of the reason this person ran the tutor is because we wanted to have the high impact permanent answers like nether void, night of Souls betrayal and chains. Having a tutor essentially gives him additional copies of whatever card is relevant. For that reason it is perfectly fine. Infernal tutor is an awkward one for sure though. In top deck wars it could give you exactly what you need when you need it. But as you said having liliana be the reason you're in that top deck war makes tutor extremely awkward.

[OmniStrata]

Tutors are black mana's version of hand sculpting. They're not Brainstorm and they have higher mana costs and what really stinks is when Liliana is out and we need to have land on hand to cast what we tutored for. Otherwise, we can't use Liliana.

If you're poxing often, cause I run big pox as well as smallpox and wastelands, and Mishra's factory is punching your enemy with Cursed Scrolls, getting the mana needed to cast what you tutored becomes unlikely. The vast majority of Pox decks we see winning don't use tutors, but rather high quality permanents in order to prevent our opponent from playing. Nether Void, Ensnaring Bridge, Chains of Mephistopheles, and Liliana probably being the absolute most dangerous ones.

Tutors from what I've seen only work for the biggie combo decks. If you're going for a 20/20 Indestructible Marit Lage, you want that setup 2 turns ago. I've almost never been in a situation where I couldn't get what I needed over time. Some people run only 1-2 Nether Spirits and when i'm playing Pox, I never fail to see my one-ofs in most games [yay Bridge for stalling for time] Traditional Pox decks can't win with a tutor since we have no game winner-in-one-turn game plans.

I never have mana to cast what I've tutored anyway and that always sucks. Tutor is like a timewalk I spent money for for them! :frown:

[Hardcore]

I irritated a 12 post player yesterday.
First game i drew all four wastelands prompting my opponent to holler "-Deck check on Carl-Magnus here!" (not that we do any at the local place:-))
Next game i had to mulligan, but got a hand with wasteland and Surgical extraction. When i wasted his cloudpost, and removed them all from the game, my opponent scooped the cards in disgust:-D:-D:-D

[OmniStrata]

I irritated a 12 post player yesterday.
First game i drew all four wastelands prompting my opponent to holler "-Deck check on Carl-Magnus here!" (not that we do any at the local place:-))
Next game i had to mulligan, but got a hand with wasteland and Surgical extraction. When i wasted his cloudpost, and removed them all from the game, my opponent scooped the cards in disgust:-D:-D:-D

If you're pissing someone off, then you're doing it right! Besides, a mature player accepts his weakness and moves on, but the tenacious ones fight to the death! In my local games, I usually go ahead and fight Dredge game 1 despite the impossible matchup. In a serious tourney, I scoop and save time lolz.

I've never fought 12 post but I run Extirpate instead of Surgicals. Ah, good times.

[rlesko]

Josh how much has your list changed since you top 8'd that SCG? Are you running DD/Thespians in your 75?

[jredelstein]

Josh how much has your list changed since you top 8'd that SCG? Are you running DD/Thespians in your 75?

Below is pretty close to what I am playing now, My top 8 list was the last tournament before adding darkdepths. I really like my current list, I never change more than a couple cards from tournament to tournament mostly sideboard. I have thought about going back to a no dark depths build but there are not enough local events for me to be able to effectively test bigger changes like that. The post below is from Legacy Champs time frame (August?)


This is the list I have been playing,(from memory so hopefully I got everything right) I think I swapped -1 Entomb +1 Misty Rainforest for a week or two for the added green source but I have since gone back to this.

I played Chains of Mephistopheles main for SCG Worchester a few months ago because it was supposed to be a heavy blue field, I played 1 blue deck in 7 rounds :(, I also played Nether Void to use against Omni-Show

Spells
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Crop Rotation
2 Life from the Loam
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Entomb
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Raven’s Crime

Creatures
1 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit

Lands
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mishra’s Factory
2 Thespian Stage
2 Misty Rainforest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Dark Depths
1 Cabal Pit
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Sideboard
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Disfigure
2 Extirpate
2 Golgari Charm
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Duress

[jredelstein]

Josh how much has your list changed since you top 8'd that SCG? Are you running DD/Thespians in your 75?

Dark depths was mostly a concession to avoid draws that I was getting against miracles a lot. I needed a fast clock, I think that was discussed further in this thread when I made the change.

[Hardcore]

If you're pissing someone off, then you're doing it right! Besides, a mature player accepts his weakness and moves on, but the tenacious ones fight to the death! In my local games, I usually go ahead and fight Dredge game 1 despite the impossible matchup. In a serious tourney, I scoop and save time lolz.

I've never fought 12 post but I run Extirpate instead of Surgicals. Ah, good times.

I have tried surgicals in the main deck once, and am thinking of doing so again.

[rlesko]

Dark depths was mostly a concession to avoid draws that I was getting against miracles a lot. I needed a fast clock, I think that was discussed further in this thread when I made the change.

If you ultimately ditched the DD Combo would you still run crop rotations main?

[Hardcore]

I suppose, he could get wasteland, tabernacle, karakas, and maze of it. Or something else.

[OmniStrata]

I suppose, he could get wasteland, tabernacle, karakas, and maze of it. Or something else.

Maze of Ith... ah, the awesome sauce when there's 1 threat and you don't have an answer for it yet... Quick question, what in the rulings allows you to attack with a Mishra's, untap it after damage with Ith, and then use it for mana main phase 2? The card itself says prevent all damage this turn. Or was that only effective when damage used the stack way back when?

[Ralf]

Quick question, what in the rulings allows you to attack with a Mishra's, untap it after damage with Ith, and then use it for mana main phase 2? The card itself says prevent all damage this turn. Or was that only effective when damage used the stack way back when?

Taking damages doesn't end the attack phase.
So you can still use Maze of Ith once the damages are done to untap Mishra (for example).
Thus Mishra is available to produce some mana main phase 2.

[rlesko]

I suppose, he could get wasteland, tabernacle, karakas, and maze of it. Or something else.

No doubt there is utility, but without the ability to win out of nowhere it makes you wonder if its worth it since you already have Entomb / Loam to find your special lands and Bojuka Bog is really only the land you need at instant speed.

[Hardcore]

No doubt there is utility, but without the ability to win out of nowhere it makes you wonder if its worth it since you already have Entomb / Loam to find your special lands and Bojuka Bog is really only the land you need at instant speed.
GB without DD is not worth it imo.
It is what make it worthwhile, otherwise you could go play mono b.

[Mr. Safety]

GB without DD is not worth it imo.
It is what make it worthwhile, otherwise you could go play mono b.

Agreed. DD is what makes gb pox an alternative choice, even abrupt decay and loam aren't worth it alone. However, once you commit to crop rotation it becomes natural to include those other cards. In my limited testing of gb pox with depths it has shown itself to be leagues ahead of other win cons (worm harvest, factory, nether spirit.) The deck space required is hardly oppressive, about 6-10 cards while also providing a toolbox with bog, maze, and tabernacle.

[rlesko]

GB without DD is not worth it imo.
It is what make it worthwhile, otherwise you could go play mono b.

I don't know if I agree with that. Life from the Loam allows you to cast smallpox more aggressively and create CA out of it much easier.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't know if I agree with that. Life from the Loam allows you to cast smallpox more aggressively and create CA out of it much easier.

Crucible of Worlds is equivalent in mono-black. Cycle lands as a card advantage tool in loam pox is abysmally slow, really only worth about two of the land slots. Wasteland recursion, and land recursion post-pox/smallpox is actually more efficient with Crucible due to its one-time cost. Loam is much more mana hungry as an engine.

[mykatdied]

Crucible of Worlds is equivalent in mono-black. Cycle lands as a card advantage tool in loam pox is abysmally slow, really only worth about two of the land slots. Wasteland recursion, and land recursion post-pox/smallpox is actually more efficient with Crucible due to its one-time cost. Loam is much more mana hungry as an engine.

I will note that crucible also allows you to take actual draw steps as well so that you can draw action

[Toxboy]

I will note that crucible also allows you to take actual draw steps as well so that you can draw action


Cycle lands togheter with loam also let's you draw action. I will personally board out up to two loams (1 vs most decks 2 vs high tide and tes) if I think they bring in graveyard hate or if I don't think it's enough gas.



Vs Miracles for example i keep all 3 since they have a real hard time answering your lands with extra effects.
After you got raven's crime in your graveyard loam will also be action vs most decks.

[Toxboy]

No doubt there is utility, but without the ability to win out of nowhere it makes you wonder if its worth it since you already have Entomb / Loam to find your special lands and Bojuka Bog is really only the land you need at instant speed.

I also want to point out that this is simply not true that bojuka bog is the only land to get at instant speed in my experience far from it.
You have everything from crux wastelands that can be needed (killing a man land, a karakas rishadan port), you can save your own lands and also many effect lands as mishra's factory and cabal pit can be very good to get at your own choosing.


My favorite is vs miracles when they play JTMS knowing I can't win with the combo and just crop rotation in response to their (usually) Jace brainstorm to fetch a mishra's with it. if you somehow get a second one in play (thespian's stage can work out in end step to copy) then you just killed 1 of their best card in the matchup.

[mykatdied]

Cycle lands togheter with loam also let's you draw action. I will personally board out up to two loams (1 vs most decks 2 vs high tide and tes) if I think they bring in graveyard hate or if I don't think it's enough gas.



Vs Miracles for example i keep all 3 since they have a real hard time answering your lands with extra effects.
After you got raven's crime in your graveyard loam will also be action vs most decks.

Very true and fair enough. I too have found that vs combo I generally don't want all my loams. Although the occasional wastelock with a sphere effect can be very effective post board.

[Mr. Safety]

I also want to point out that this is simply not true that bojuka bog is the only land to get at instant speed in my experience far from it.
You have everything from crux wastelands that can be needed (killing a man land, a karakas rishadan port), you can save your own lands and also many effect lands as mishra's factory and cabal pit can be very good to get at your own choosing.


My favorite is vs miracles when they play JTMS knowing I can't win with the combo and just crop rotation in response to their (usually) Jace brainstorm to fetch a mishra's with it. if you somehow get a second one in play (thespian's stage can work out in end step to copy) then you just killed 1 of their best card in the matchup.

You're working pretty hard to deal with Jace. If you're on crop rotation then I suggest vampire hexmage to compliment depths. I love having 4 in the main to deal with jaces as well as providing additional threats (I play zero factories.)

Edit: and I still play 2 needles in the board.

[Hardcore]

If i run two Sensei's Divining Top, how many shuffle effects do i need?
I have four fetchlands in the deck

[Chatto]

If i run two Sensei's Divining Top, how many shuffle effects do i need?
I have four fetchlands in the deck

I would say the minimum is six.

[snorlaxcom]

If i run two Sensei's Divining Top, how many shuffle effects do i need?
I have four fetchlands in the deck

You could add an infernal tutor or 2 and crop rotations if there is green.

[mykatdied]

I personally run dakmor salvage with top in my mono black build and I never saw a reason to dislike it. Sure occasionally a comes into play tapped land matters, but very rarely does it REALLY matter. It also gives you the ability to "draw" lands later in the game after heavy poxing. I liked it because sometimes you just don't want certain cards in a match and it helped me remove them from the deck rather than shuffling them back and possibly still finding them on top

[Hardcore]

A stable mana base, control over my draws, less self-disruption and, for creature kill, reliance shifting from pox effects to sweepers. Those changes resulted in this:

4 Bloodghast
4 bloodsoaked champion these guys are needed to facilitate poxing when bigger creatures are in play.
2 Gurmag Angler depending how testing goes this one may be upgraded to Tombstalkers
4 the rack
3 nihilith

4 Pox
4 smallpox
4 hymn to tourach
4 wrench mind
3 toxic deluge a better answer to creature threats than pox

2 sensei's divining top
2 cursed scroll a test

4 bloodstained mire
17 swamp
1 dakmor salvage

This list should let me better manage resources, especially my lands.

Liliana is excluded:cry: but her main thing is to discard cards for the rack damage. That should work better with Wrench Mind.

I may play without top if i find it interfere with play. Otoh i should have less mana problems overall and thus find it less of a drain.

would love to test it but i have to wait 10 days for the next tourney:cry:

[mykatdied]

A stable mana base, control over my draws, less self-disruption and, for creature kill, reliance shifting from pox effects to sweepers. Those changes resulted in this:

4 Bloodghast
4 bloodsoaked champion these guys are needed to facilitate poxing when bigger creatures are in play.
2 Gurmag Angler depending how testing goes this one may be upgraded to Tombstalkers
4 the rack
3 nihilith

4 Pox
4 smallpox
4 hymn to tourach
4 wrench mind
3 toxic deluge a better answer to creature threats than pox

2 sensei's divining top
2 cursed scroll a test

4 bloodstained mire
17 swamp
1 dakmor salvage

This list should let me better manage resources, especially my lands.

Liliana is excluded:cry: but her main thing is to discard cards for the rack damage. That should work better with Wrench Mind.

I may play without top if i find it interfere with play. Otoh i should have less mana problems overall and thus find it less of a drain.

would love to test it but i have to wait 10 days for the next tourney:cry:

Not sure that I can agree with dropping liliana straight up for wrench mind. Mostly because she is a constant source of discard every turn, whereas wrench can only hit when you cast it on your turn each time you draw it. But the discard 2 seems very good regardless. I would definitely try and find room for both. Since you have creatures to help with a clock you should probably not include scroll over Liliana and I would certainly cut another card to add a 3rd as well.

[TTX]

I'm strongly considering playing Chalice of Pox next weekend. The list is based on Jason Deiss' list from Denver.

1 Nether Spirit
1 Batterskull/Vraska the Unseen
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Thoughtseize/Duress
3 Dark Ritual
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Smallpox
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Mox Diamond
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Void
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Infernal Tutor

1 Cabal Pit
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ancient Tomb

Sideboard
1 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Engineered Plague
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
2 Diabolic Edict

Chalice of the Void is too good at 0 and/or 1 in the current meta to not include.
I'm not sure if Thoughtseize or Duress is better. Most creatures are not a problem for this deck, and I'd rather preserve life total. Thoughts? Edit: Thoughtseize is just better. Death and Taxes is one of the toughest matchups, and taking a pesky hate bear makes a big difference.

Often Grim Tutor is cast after most of the hand has been expended, and the cheaper (money and casting cost) Infernal Tutor seems superior because of no life loss and the possibility of casting the tutored card in the same turn. After a lot of testing, Infernal Tutor is definitely better.

Difficult match-ups I expect to be Burn, Goblins, Death & Taxes, and Lands, therefore I'm playing 1 Batterskull main instead of a second Cursed Scroll as a life gain source and clock. Edit: I'm trying out Vraska the Unseen as a faster clock. One of the notorious problems being Pox can't close the game fast enough. 1 additional planeswalker that is a desert twister and potential win condition is valuable. I really like Batterskull, but it's too slow to combat burn and death and taxes, so those must be approached in some other way. Vraska is a much better card for closing out grindy games.

Edit: What's the best defense against burn? I can only think Zuran Orb, Lifegift is kind of cool, but too slow. Is planting a Chalice for 1 and Chalice for 2 the only way to combat Burn?

Lands ability to make a Marit Lage end step is where Diabolic Edict makes its effect, and Leyline shuts out their Life from the Loam. Helm of Obedience is an auto include with Leyline.

What do you guys think?

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[mykatdied]

I'm strongly considering playing Chalice of Pox next weekend. The list is based on Jason Deiss' list from Denver.

1 Nether Spirit
1 Batterskull
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Thoughtseize/Duress
3 Dark Ritual
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Smallpox
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Mox Diamond
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Void
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Grim Tutor/Infernal Tutor

1 Cabal Pit
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors

Sideboard
1 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Golgari Charm
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
2 Diabolic Edict

Chalice of the Void is too good at 0 and/or 1 in the current meta to not include.
I'm not sure if Thoughtseize or Duress is better. Most creatures are not a problem for this deck, and I'd rather preserve life total. Thoughts?
Often Grim Tutor is cast after most of the hand has been expended, and the cheaper (money and casting cost) Infernal Tutor seems superior because of no life loss and the possibility of casting the tutored card in the same turn.
I'm not sure about 2 Urborgs, perhaps I should play 3? But I'm not sure what to cut.
Isn't City of Traitors better in a Crucible deck?

Difficult matchups I expect to be Burn, Goblins, and Lands, therefore I'm playing 1 Batterskull main instead of a second Cursed Scroll as a life gain source and clock.
Lands ability to make a Marit Lage end step is where Diabolic Edict makes its effect, and Leyline shuts out their Life from the Loam. Helm of Obedience is an auto include with Leyline.

What do you guys think?


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Tomb is likely better as it stays around. You don't want to cast a chalice off city and then want to play a hymn or something and not be able to use your sol land when you're sitting on urborg and Tomb likely won't deal damage to you past turn 1 chalice. If you tried a turn 2 Crucible off city and another land and that got countered then it would be rough.

[Hardcore]

Remorseless Punishment. One off against Miracles?

[Hardcore]

Remorseless Punishment

"Oracle Text

Target opponent loses 5 life unless that player discards two cards or sacrifices a creature or planeswalker. Repeat this process once"

[TTX]

I'd prefer another copy of Chains of Mephistopheles. I don't think Remorseless Punishment is playable. I guess it's ok against Jace.


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[Mr. Safety]

Funny story (from MWS. Is there any other kind?) that illustrates why I play Dark Depths in gb pox. I plaued against burn, notorious as one of the worst matchups for pox in general, and I raced him game one with a turn three hexmage + depths. I was at 13 life and he couldn't kill me (I took a goblin guide with inquisition of kozilek.) I drew 2 extra lands from his other guide he played.

"You're cheating. Fuck off" were his last words before signing out. God I love pissing off scrubs.

Regarding the new five mana spell, pox is probably the hardest deck to incorporate this. Smallpox, Pox, and wasteland all keep you at around 2-3 functional mana during a game. I feel even one copy is dangerous. Hymn to tourach is just infinitely more playable, and if you look closely, this card doesn't even do as much as Smallpox. Without a fast clock the lifeloss is negligable, and other disruption is more efficient.

EDIT: at four mana this card would have been playable. Against some decks that use their life total strongly as a resource this could be difficult to play around on turn 2 with a dark ritual.

[Hardcore]

I see it doing service when in top deck mode vs grindy decks. At that time i often have the mana i need.
Still, i am waiting for something better.

[jredelstein]

I was out of town over the holiday, I will try to answer the questions that came up in the last 2 weeks, if I missed something let me know.

I played Crop Rotation in my sideboard when I made Top 8 of SCG Legacy Open, as many of you pointed out Bojuka Bog, and Tabernacle are the best things to get, I also had Karakas and Glacial Chasm in the sideboard and play Maze of Ith, there are also some fringe scenarios like using it to "stifle" and opposing wasteland or getting a Mishra's Factory to start the beatdown.

I run 2 Sensei's Divining Top and play 6-7 fetchlands, 3 crop rotation, and 2 life from the loam to clear out the top of my deck. I'd say it is probably not worth playing Top with less than 8 effects to clear your top 3 cards.

I played 2 barren moor in my pre dark depths lists, cycle lands help a lot in grinding out games allowing GB pox to dredge and draw in the same turn. I have not found room for the cycle lands since I added dark depths. Crucible does a similar thing allow extra land drops while still drawing but does not add cards to the hand which is an upside to Loam, allowing us to hold cards with an active Liliana.

I think the next addition I am going to try is Exploration, the trick will be finding a balance that stay true to my pox roots. I don't want to just become a lands deck or turbo-depths.

[Hardcore]

Midnight Charm I am thinking combat tricks with this one.

[OmniStrata]

Warping Wail.

My magic coach pointed me to this card and I'm somewhat regretting mentioning it here, but after careful review of the card, some call it "Eldrazi Charm", I'm certain Pox would love it in the 75 somewhere.

There's apparently a NEW form of colorless mana. [facepalm]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/warping-wail/

This could be new secret tech to deal with my biggest problems. Going to get 4, maybe even 8 of these bad boys once they're printed, I only hope they're cheap enough.

[jredelstein]

Warping Wail.

My magic coach pointed me to this card and I'm somewhat regretting mentioning it here, but after careful review of the card, some call it "Eldrazi Charm", I'm certain Pox would love it in the 75 somewhere.

There's apparently a NEW form of colorless mana. [facepalm]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/warping-wail/

This could be new secret tech to deal with my biggest problems. Going to get 4, maybe even 8 of these bad boys once they're printed, I only hope they're cheap enough.

We already run wasteland, Mishra's factory and some of us run thespian stage to provide the "new colorless" mana, so that should not be too much of a concern. The Envelop part seems like a corner case but could definitely be useful(we are not the type of deck that keeps mana up often), the exiling a creature seems like the best mode but still a worse Disfiguremost of the time but they both hit Deathrite Shaman which is big, making a token seems to be the least likely to be used.

None of these modes thrill me but the versatility of having all 3 modes is nice. I also think GB Pox has more options with Abrupt Decay and Golgari Charm so it will probably be a much better card for mono black pox.

[Hardcore]

As i understand it there is no new mana, only a clarification.
A circle with a number in it is a cost, and a circle with the symbol show that mana is produced (of the colorless type).

[jredelstein]

As i understand it there is no new mana, only a clarification.
A circle with a number in it is a cost, and a circle with the symbol show that mana is produced (of the colorless type).

Yeah the way I understand it is that there is now a distinction between colorless mana and mana of any color. The new Kozilek cost 2 colorless mana and 8 mana of any color for example. A swamp can be used to pay for mana of any color, but not for the colorless mana portion of cost. Definitely a strange concept.

[Hardcore]

i think mana of any color can still be used to pay for generic colorless cost. But it is hard to make up or down of it.

[Offensive_username]

i think mana of any color can still be used to pay for generic colorless cost. But it is hard to make up or down of it.

Nope. (<>) HAS to be paid for with colorless mana, such as from Rishadan Port. (1) (2) (x) and the like can be paid for with any mana.

[OmniStrata]

Whoa, I'm glad my corner case deals with GSZ, Show and Tell, Entreat the Angels, Council's Judgment, Terminus, Ancestral Vision, most tutors, elves, goblins, DRS (I really hate dat guy), Delver, Young Pyromancer, Vendillion Clique, Death and Taxes (almost the whole damn deck), Swift spear, Rift Bolt, (lots of burn sorceries lets just say), Ponder, Infect (how many 1 power or toughness creatures they run?), Hymn to Tourach, (huff puff) :eek:

Is that everything? I do hope nobody notices this. I think the <> is colorless only so us 4 Wasteland/Mishra's runners can easily meet that demand. Pox's ultimate problem is how many "staple's" the Mono-B deck has and I'm quickly running out of room... :frown:

On another note, it meets ALL of Pox's original creed: It disrupts our opponent, provides mana, AND deals damage (though it's weak, I'll kill you at 1 hp if I must).

[Hardcore]

There was not much fun to be found in the new set. Hope you get a success with that charm.

[mykatdied]

I'm definitely not as excited as that guy for the eldrazi charm card, but I definitely don't plan on including it in any of my pox lists. Colorless can be difficult to come by with only 4 wasteland which are usually getting fired off immediately, then I'm left with 4 land that can cast a card like that in Mishra's Factory. I think the card can be cute but we definitely have better options currently.

[OmniStrata]

Can anyone explain to me why someone would choose to remove Hymn to Tourach from their main deck? I noticed Kurtis Frazier's list and I'm guessing it's because once Mephistopheles is on the battlefield, such 2 for 1's are no longer necessary? It's one of the best card advantage spells in Legacy for the price out done only by Smallpox and Pox as sorceries.

Is Chains also the best card Mono-B has against miracles? I understand Abrupt Decay is definitely the 'big one' but I don't want to open myself up to needing stifles, fetchlands, and getting Wastelanded.

[mykatdied]

Can anyone explain to me why someone would choose to remove Hymn to Tourach from their main deck? I noticed Kurtis Frazier's list and I'm guessing it's because once Mephistopheles is on the battlefield, such 2 for 1's are no longer necessary? It's one of the best card advantage spells in Legacy for the price out done only by Smallpox and Pox as sorceries.

Is Chains also the best card Mono-B has against miracles? I understand Abrupt Decay is definitely the 'big one' but I don't want to open myself up to needing stifles, fetchlands, and getting Wastelanded.

Some people find that the random is sometimes not as good as selecting which cards gets the ax. I personally will never go without hymn, but if Kurtis is convinced that hymn isn't necessarily needed I find it hard to argue. He is likely the best mono black pox player I've come into contact with as his results are the most consistent.

[Stroggi]

Some people find that the random is sometimes not as good as selecting which cards gets the ax. I personally will never go without hymn, but if Kurtis is convinced that hymn isn't necessarily needed I find it hard to argue. He is likely the best mono black pox player I've come into contact with as his results are the most consistent.

I think I read somewhere that cutting hymns for main deck chains was a direct response to the treasure cruise meta. Not only could hymn's 2 for 1 not keep up with cruise's 3 for 1, but it enabled their cruises even faster. Chains turned off cruise pretty hard. It may no longer be correct to forgoe hymns in the current meta.

[zenitramleirdag]

i agree, kurtis uninclusion of the hymns in the main in lieu of the chains is definitely because of the treasure cruise era..but i think its worth mentioning that he didn't totally "uninclude" it since he still had 3 copies of hymn to tourach in his sideboard:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78242


i am also rocking with 4 hymns right now, though i can probably justify replacing them with one-mana, pinpoint discard spells if i were running a "ritualess" build so that i can have more turn-1 action..

if i were also maindecking surgical extraction(like what some players like to do), i would probably replace some copies of hymn with thoughtseize or duress..

[mykatdied]

Even during the treasure cruise era I was running 3 hymn and 1 chains in the main with an additional 2 chains in the board. I did not like the idea of not having hymn vs the other decks that it can straight up cripple when we already trashed UR Delver anyway. That deck was probably one of the lower concerns on my radar when i would pick up pox. Between their super greedy mana base and light threat count, that deck just never seemed a worry to me.

[Hardcore]

Two cards that would function well with the sacrifice effects of pox are scourge of nel toth
and veilborn ghoul.
The dragon may be better than Gurmag Angler considering it can be sacrificed and discarded.
Veilborn ghoul is like Squee but with landfall.
Buried Alive for two bloodghast and scourge of nel toth would be nice.

[Ralf]

I feel like there might be a strong synergy between the upcoming new eldrazi Reality Smasher and Liliana of the Veil.

This new guy might be the beater "Pox" was looking for:
- haste + trample (haste is a real deal when it comes to take care of PW)
- 5/5 for 5 mana
- Can only be taken care if your opponent has 2 cards in hands (which is not likely to happen since the core strategy of Pox is to put everyone hellbent as fast as possible). Since, this guy is likely to be played after Liliana, there might be some food for thoughts.

Obviously, it does not have a great synergy with Smallpox and needs a colorless mana producing land to be played (4 mishra + 4 wasteland should be enough). I can see 5 mana being also a huge pain but who knows...

What do you think ?

[Hardcore]

You Must play rituals to make it viable. Or reanimate.

[Ralf]

You Must play rituals to make it viable. Or reanimate.

Dark ritual is obvious (almost every pox list is playing the playset).

Reanimate could be an interesting option:

You lose 5 lifes to ping your opponent for 5 in the same turn, leaving behind a threat that is hard to deal with.

[Hardcore]

would be great against jace.

[OmniStrata]

Two cards that would function well with the sacrifice effects of pox are scourge of nel toth
and veilborn ghoul.
The dragon may be better than Gurmag Angler considering it can be sacrificed and discarded.
Veilborn ghoul is like Squee but with landfall.
Buried Alive for two bloodghast and scourge of nel toth would be nice.

Veilborn Ghoul reminds me of an overpriced version of Undead Gladiator. The gladiator has a much more desirable power to mana ratio and can dig when you're top decking garbage and you have plenty of mana on the field. When the game goes long enough, having 4-6 lands isn't impossible.

[sdematt]

A friend of mine stopped posting in here due to busyness, but Ill post his list soon. Ive really liked the list and we havr been tuning it for over two years.

Definitely not budget, and no Rituals. Hard grinding.

[Hardcore]

we look forward to that!

[OmniStrata]

A friend of mine stopped posting in here due to busyness, but Ill post his list soon. Ive really liked the list and we havr been tuning it for over two years.

Definitely not budget, and no Rituals. Hard grinding.

Is it mono-b or B/G or even, B/W? :eek:

[mykatdied]

B/w is definitely my favorite variant of pox. Been on and off playing it for a long time. I hope that it is that variant so I can get a look at another person's perspective.

[jredelstein]

B/w is definitely my favorite variant of pox. Been on and off playing it for a long time. I hope that it is that variant so I can get a look at another person's perspective.

What does your B/W list look like? I have seen some Modern BW Pox lists I like, wondering what you play in a Legacy version.

[mykatdied]

What does your B/W list look like? I have seen some Modern BW Pox lists I like, wondering what you play in a Legacy version.

Deck: pox b/w (61)

// Lands
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
3 Marsh Flats
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

// Creatures
2 Nether Spirit
3 Tombstalker

// Spells
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Mox Diamond
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Vindicate

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Nether Void
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Vindicate

I have been playing this one on and off for about 2.5 years now. List hasn't changed much as many of the cards are powerful in their own right.


Deck: pox blade (60)

// Lands
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

// Creatures

// Spells
2 Bitterblossom
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls
1 Nether Void
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Vindicate

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution

This was an interesting idea I had along the way and it proved relatively strong, feels like it is missing something though. Tested well, but not great.

[Hardcore]

A blade variant should focus on the best of white, which at this time is Thalia or SFM.
I have considered what one can do with Aether vial in pox and this is a nice direction.

[mykatdied]

A blade variant should focus on the best of white, which at this time is Thalia or SFM.
I have considered what one can do with Aether vial in pox and this is a nice direction.

Thalia is the last card I want to play against let alone run in a pox build.

Sfm is fine but in pox the early turns of disruption are so important I don't like the idea of investing turns 2 and 3 on getting a batterskull into play

[jredelstein]

Thalia is the last card I want to play against let alone run in a pox build.

Sfm is fine but in pox the early turns of disruption are so important I don't like the idea of investing turns 2 and 3 on getting a batterskull into play

I agree Thalia is not were you want to be in a deck with no creatures. Stoneforge Mystic could slot in for the second Umezawa Jitte or could be in the sideboard with a batterskull for match-ups were you want to have a faster way to win and/or batterskull lifegain. It would serve a similar function to the Enlightened Tutors (I love the E-Tutor package btw, that was always my favorite Miracles build too)

A single Nether Spirit may be a better card for you, endless blocker and another card you can profitably discard besides Lingering Souls.

[mykatdied]

I agree Thalia is not were you want to be in a deck with no creatures. Stoneforge Mystic could slot in for the second Umezawa Jitte or could be in the sideboard with a batterskull for match-ups were you want to have a faster way to win and/or batterskull lifegain. It would serve a similar function to the Enlightened Tutors (I love the E-Tutor package btw, that was always my favorite Miracles build too)

A single Nether Spirit may be a better card for you, endless blocker and another card you can profitably discard besides Lingering Souls.

I have yet to test the second build with the tops because I had the jitte in there. But I will be sleeving pox back up in the coming weeks to see where the deck stands as far as my preference in this meta.

Again on sfm I am really not a fan of taking those early turns to set up a batterskull. Especially since the only deck I would want it for is vs burn and I already have e tutor plus circle of pro red for that. I think I need to dust off my most since all my threats fly

[sdematt]

Sorry for the delay, school is hell.

Like I said, we worked on this list for a long time, and through meta changes. He changed it for the DTT meta, but then hasn't played since August. This is a rough list, since I don't have the exact version handy.

Pox

2 Nether Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Sylvan Library
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mox Diamond


1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Bayou

Sideboard

1 Cursed Scroll
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Choke
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Ensnaring Bridge

This is the last list I have on my email record, so it's gone through revisions since then, but the basic theme is the same. BG Void Pox, and obviously the main card that likely throws everyone off is Sylvan Library. Many times with Pox, you're just topdecking into nothing. You can argue Top is a viable replacement, but you need actual cards to beat your opponents. Many times you have a bunch of life sitting around, and those extra cards can actually seal games.

I think one version of another did have two cursed scroll main, as well. Land base likely needs more basic swamps, likely at the cost of an urborg.

-Matt

[mykatdied]

Sorry for the delay, school is hell.

Like I said, we worked on this list for a long time, and through meta changes. He changed it for the DTT meta, but then hasn't played since August. This is a rough list, since I don't have the exact version handy.

Pox

2 Nether Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Sylvan Library
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mox Diamond


1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Bayou

Sideboard

1 Cursed Scroll
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Choke
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Ensnaring Bridge

This is the last list I have on my email record, so it's gone through revisions since then, but the basic theme is the same. BG Void Pox, and obviously the main card that likely throws everyone off is Sylvan Library. Many times with Pox, you're just topdecking into nothing. You can argue Top is a viable replacement, but you need actual cards to beat your opponents. Many times you have a bunch of life sitting around, and those extra cards can actually seal games.

I think one version of another did have two cursed scroll main, as well. Land base likely needs more basic swamps, likely at the cost of an urborg.

-Matt

So your win condition is just 4 factory main, or making them scoop? I would have to trust your judgment as I've never played a similar list, but that seems super loose. Void isn't going to stop decay from killing liliana or wasteland from killing factory, so how do you actually beat an opponent?

[sdematt]

So your win condition is just 4 factory main, or making them scoop? I would have to trust your judgment as I've never played a similar list, but that seems super loose. Void isn't going to stop decay from killing liliana or wasteland from killing factory, so how do you actually beat an opponent?

There were also 2 Scroll in the lists we were testing later.

And yes, that was the win condition. Grind the hell out of the them. Sure, Decay does kill Liliana, but ideally you've blown up most of their lands and they've got nothing left. Recall you have Crucibles as well to keep recurring Factories, you worry more about STP.

-Matt

[Philipp2293]

Recall you have Crucibles as well to keep recurring Factories, you worry more about STP.

-Matt

Even then you can play around this if you have Wasteland, Crucible and Factories. Even slower, but still gets the work done.

[jredelstein]

I have yet to test the second build with the tops because I had the jitte in there. But I will be sleeving pox back up in the coming weeks to see where the deck stands as far as my preference in this meta.

Again on sfm I am really not a fan of taking those early turns to set up a batterskull. Especially since the only deck I would want it for is vs burn and I already have e tutor plus circle of pro red for that. I think I need to dust off my most since all my threats fly

You don't have to play Stoneforge Mystic in the first 2-3 turns, you can sequence your spells in what ever order best fits the situation

It is the same mana you'd use to cast bitterblossom and jitte but it only costs you one card, and it gives you the freedom to play batterskull if you want. I don't think you want to play 4 SFM but 2-3 seems reasonable.


So your win condition is just 4 factory main, or making them scoop? I would have to trust your judgment as I've never played a similar list, but that seems super loose. Void isn't going to stop decay from killing liliana or wasteland from killing factory, so how do you actually beat an opponent?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69791

My Legacy Top 8 list from 2 years ago, only win conditions are 3 Bloodghast, 3 Mishra's Factory, Concession(Scoop). Guess which one is my favorite and happened most often :)

I actually liked this build a lot more than my current builds with dark depths but I think the dark depths win is a necessary evil to win games in time.

[Hardcore]

Concession ???

[mykatdied]

I don't think it isn't possible to win with that list, it is certainly aggressive in mana denial. I do like the list a lot. I have just found that counter magic and tempo plays can make it really difficult to actually set up your key spells and cantrips plus card selection could make it tough. I missed at first that you are black green so perhaps you having decay can also make a huge difference.

-jedelstein
In regards to your top 8 loam pox list, you have entomb and loam which really find your threats quickly when you are ready to switch gears. So it is quite a different scenario, but you certainly run more threats and they are tutorable and more recurrable.

I have seen black white lists with gatekeeper, sfm and Bob before. I have also seen them with only sfm and bob. Maybe I will exchange for bitterblossom and test that out with 1 skull and 1 jitte. My concern is waiting to drop sfm and having to discard to smallpox or liliana while I am disrupting early in the game. Or casting him and having to tick up liliana with batterskull in hand. That is my personal issue with sfm. But I could be completely incorrect and just need to adjust my play style a bit.

[jredelstein]

I don't think it isn't possible to win with that list, it is certainly aggressive in mana denial. I do like the list a lot. I have just found that counter magic and tempo plays can make it really difficult to actually set up your key spells and cantrips plus card selection could make it tough. I missed at first that you are black green so perhaps you having decay can also make a huge difference.

-jedelstein
In regards to your top 8 loam pox list, you have entomb and loam which really find your threats quickly when you are ready to switch gears. So it is quite a different scenario, but you certainly run more threats and they are tutorable and more recurrable.

I have seen black white lists with gatekeeper, sfm and Bob before. I have also seen them with only sfm and bob. Maybe I will exchange for bitterblossom and test that out with 1 skull and 1 jitte. My concern is waiting to drop sfm and having to discard to smallpox or liliana while I am disrupting early in the game. Or casting him and having to tick up liliana with batterskull in hand. That is my personal issue with sfm. But I could be completely incorrect and just need to adjust my play style a bit.

I agree there are more way to find threats but in the end only have 6.

Discarding SFM is unfortunately going to happen sometimes. Life from Loam helps me keep cards in my hand for longer but you don't have that luxury. I think having more things to profitably discard may help, which was my first suggestion to add a nether spirit. I actually am not sure you need SFM or as I suggested before you could play it in the sideboard similar to your enlightened tutor package. It is a powerful card so it can never be that bad to play him.

-Hardcore: Concession, as in Concede to, or scoop.

[Hardcore]

volrath stronghold, but then you really should go BWG.

[jredelstein]

volrath stronghold, but then you really should go BWG.

He has Crucible so doesn't need to add green.

I'd almost rather add blue for Academy Ruins, it allows bringing back equipment but also brings back Engineered Explosives and Pithing Needles.

[Chiptoon]

He has Crucible so doesn't need to add green.

I'd almost rather add blue for Academy Ruins, it allows bringing back equipment but also brings back Engineered Explosives and Pithing Needles.

Once you dive into Esper, I feel like it'd probably be better to just run a Landstill deck instead. Standstill is a better card advantage engine in a blue deck and then you can run reactive cards like Force of Will. I just believe three colors is too many for a Pox deck and the fragility of three color manabases can be exploited too easily when you're sacrificing your own lands.

[OmniStrata]

So your win condition is just 4 factory main, or making them scoop? I would have to trust your judgment as I've never played a similar list, but that seems super loose. Void isn't going to stop decay from killing liliana or wasteland from killing factory, so how do you actually beat an opponent?

Abrupt Decay kills Tarmogoyf. Does that mean nobody's going to play it? Decay kills Liliana even without a Nether Void on the field. I think the problem people are seeing is that there are 'too few' win conditions.

I have to cry foul cause way back when, during the days when I didn't have a career job, me and my friend played budget decks. He played a form of Psychotog and it only had 4 win conditions, Psychotog. :eek:

It pulled wins. Not against $1000 tournament decks but it was one of the strongest decks in our kitchen table meta. Protect the snot out of your threat.

Long grindy lists are what Pox can work under last I remember. All the big name builds that top 8'd didn't need Marit Lage or anything fancy. Just slap you to death for 2 damage a turn. I do look forward to the actual list vs. a quick review off the top of your head. Personally, the biggest reason I loved Pox as a deck to begin with is that it's the most effective land destruction deck in MtG right now. Granted, it's designed to murder your hand as well but that doesn't hurt its effectiveness.

My only sad testing was that Sphere of Resistance didn't carry as hard as I thought it would. I replaced Hymn to Tourach as a test and it allowed for some very impressive anti-combo strategy, but did poorly vs. Miracles (worst matchup ever) and Vial agro. Looking forward to Warping Wail's addition and got to test it once it arrives in the mail.

[OmniStrata]

An idea inspired by that list...

Mono-B Prison Pox

Threats (6)
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Cursed Scroll/Chimeric Idol
1 Nether Spirit

Spells (30)
1 Trinisphere
1 Nether Void
1 Bottled Cloister
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Innocent Blood/Warping Wail
4 Smallpox
1 Pox

Land/Mana (24)
4 Dark Ritual
11 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
1 Cursed Scroll/Underworld Dreams
1 Contamination
2 Extirpate
2 Leyline of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Ensnaring Bridge

Innocent Blood may be split like 2/2 or something with the Wail. Though C. Scroll and N. Spirit upped the threat count a notch, I like how they both generate card advantage in the right circumstances. I'm considering Chimeric Idol for the Cursed Scroll slot. Granted, it prevents Mishra's use, but it allows me to cast spells and then when I tapped out [assuming I used Mishra's to cast], I have a threat that's free to perforate my enemy's head. Or get rid of it altogether and bring back Night of Souls' Betrayal, but my meta doesn't have much swarm agro anymore.

Decisions decisions. :confused:

[zenitramleirdag]

i kinda feel doubtful about warping wail for our deck because of its restrictive colorless requirement in its cost, i also feel that we don't really need it in our deck..

[OmniStrata]

i kinda feel doubtful about warping wail for our deck because of its restrictive colorless requirement in its cost, i also feel that we don't really need it in our deck..

We'll have to wait and see. Crucibles keep the colorless lands coming back and with 9 colorless mana sources, which is almost half the land, I don't think it'd be that hard to cast. I'm more than likely going to be bringing in 1-2 instead of a full set since early turns are for active disruption and our top decked spells can't disrupt as effectively. Nothing like top decking say, Hymn to Tourach when Liliana already did maximum brain damage.

Top decking this thing kills some of the most annoying and prevalent creatures in the game by targeting them and sorceries are more common in my meta than I first anticipated. Considering Pox's default deck skeleton, there aren't many decks that could use this card due to the colorless requirements but Pox players usually already have 8 in Wasteland and Mishra's. I'll make my decision after fighting my nemesis, Miracles... :mad: I distinctly remember, long ago, when Cursed Scroll was deemed unfit to be used in Pox [see original old thread]. If I'm wrong, the card was barely a loss at less than $2. If I'm right, maybe it'd be better if I kept it to myself... :tongue:

[mykatdied]

Deck: pox blade (60)

Lands 24
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Creatures 2
2 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells 34
2 Bitterblossom
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls
1 Nether Void
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Vindicate

Sideboard 15
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Engineered Plague
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Extirpate
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution

This is the list I settled on tonight. I was honestly a little tired and feeling sick, but my play overall was good. Made a few minor errors and ended up 1-2-1 drop.

Round 1 - Drew with Miracles
Game 1 - I crushed him with land destruction, taking cantrips with discard and souls/bitterblossom + nether void get there.

Game 2 - Tight game, but he gets there with a Jace eventually.

Game 3 - Very close game to time. I likely had the game, but I made a mistake and shuffled top away with flagstones after a smallpox and it took several turns to find what I needed. My top deck in the end was top, souls, land and I have liliana at 6. It happens. Slight misplay was tough.

Round 2 - Lost to Tezzerator
Game 1 - He did his thing on the play and I just couldn't do much to stop him fast enough.

Game 2 - Long and drawn out. Had engineered plague on bird for strix and engineered plague on thopter obviously. He was able to gain annoying amounts of life and I was able to top deck SFM and get batterskull into play. Won from there with a bit of LD, nether void, 3sphere and chains on board. 5 minutes left.

Game 3 - Had to play quick, kept a 1 land hand and he just had a great start. Couldn't do much so I scooped.

Round 3 - Beat miracles 2-0
Game 1 - He can't keep up with my lingering souls and nether void out. He scoops quick. I took his cantrips seeing he was light on mana.

Game 2 - Quick bitterblossom, he plays blood moon. It hurt him as much as me. I was able to also cast and flashback a lingering souls. He dropped mentor and I had to take 3 swings before I had 2 faeries to trade with mentor and then another to trade with the token. I got there quickly after I stabilize the board and spam tokens to race my bitterblossom. I win at 2 life.

Round 4 - Loss to BR reanimator
Game 1 - I crush him leaving him with no permanents, no hand and souls taking him down slowly.

Game 2 - He gets turn 1 Iona on black and I don't find a white source after dropping cage.

Game 3 - He gets stronghold gambit to Iona on black, but I am able to e-tutor for o-ring. He is able to exhume an ashen rider and takes o-ring stranding the smallpox and liliana in hand once again. I feel like crap so I scoop and drop.

Overall was happy where the deck is. I am not sure I like the batterskull, but SFM was nice to tutor equipment. I may add a sword of some sort in place of batterskull. Think I want the second jitte though.

Moat was great. Forgot how much I loved having it. Used to be Nether Void in the side with Moat in the main. I will likely stick with Void in the main

[zenitramleirdag]

Deck: pox blade (60)

Lands 24
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Creatures 2
2 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells 34
2 Bitterblossom
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls
1 Nether Void
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Vindicate

Sideboard 15
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Engineered Plague
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Extirpate
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution

This is the list I settled on tonight. I was honestly a little tired and feeling sick, but my play overall was good. Made a few minor errors and ended up 1-2-1 drop.

Round 1 - Drew with Miracles
Game 1 - I crushed him with land destruction, taking cantrips with discard and souls/bitterblossom + nether void get there.

Game 2 - Tight game, but he gets there with a Jace eventually.

Game 3 - Very close game to time. I likely had the game, but I made a mistake and shuffled top away with flagstones after a smallpox and it took several turns to find what I needed. My top deck in the end was top, souls, land and I have liliana at 6. It happens. Slight misplay was tough.

Round 2 - Lost to Tezzerator
Game 1 - He did his thing on the play and I just couldn't do much to stop him fast enough.

Game 2 - Long and drawn out. Had engineered plague on bird for strix and engineered plague on thopter obviously. He was able to gain annoying amounts of life and I was able to top deck SFM and get batterskull into play. Won from there with a bit of LD, nether void, 3sphere and chains on board. 5 minutes left.

Game 3 - Had to play quick, kept a 1 land hand and he just had a great start. Couldn't do much so I scooped.

Round 3 - Beat miracles 2-0
Game 1 - He can't keep up with my lingering souls and nether void out. He scoops quick. I took his cantrips seeing he was light on mana.

Game 2 - Quick bitterblossom, he plays blood moon. It hurt him as much as me. I was able to also cast and flashback a lingering souls. He dropped mentor and I had to take 3 swings before I had 2 faeries to trade with mentor and then another to trade with the token. I got there quickly after I stabilize the board and spam tokens to race my bitterblossom. I win at 2 life.

Round 4 - Loss to BR reanimator
Game 1 - I crush him leaving him with no permanents, no hand and souls taking him down slowly.

Game 2 - He gets turn 1 Iona on black and I don't find a white source after dropping cage.

Game 3 - He gets stronghold gambit to Iona on black, but I am able to e-tutor for o-ring. He is able to exhume an ashen rider and takes o-ring stranding the smallpox and liliana in hand once again. I feel like crap so I scoop and drop.

Overall was happy where the deck is. I am not sure I like the batterskull, but SFM was nice to tutor equipment. I may add a sword of some sort in place of batterskull. Think I want the second jitte though.

Moat was great. Forgot how much I loved having it. Used to be Nether Void in the side with Moat in the main. I will likely stick with Void in the main


awesome, i missed this..
i see you dropped the mox diamonds..

[mykatdied]

awesome, i missed this..
i see you dropped the mox diamonds..

Well the other list still have mox diamonds it in. Which I kind of missed last night. The list I played last night was the second list that I had posted and was less familiar with. I was just really pleased to see how much game it had vs miracles.

[zenitramleirdag]

I was just really pleased to see how much game it had vs miracles.

yes, i wouldn't be surprised if it did, cards that can continuously deal damage(cursed scroll), or churn out threats(bitterblossom), or hurt their cantrips(trinisphere) is effective against miracles..

Zealous Persecution is an interesting pick, its good against elves and DnT..as a mono black player, i have to run both perish and dread of night for those matches..

[mykatdied]

yes, i wouldn't be surprised if it did, cards that can continuously deal damage(cursed scroll), or churn out threats(bitterblossom), or hurt their cantrips(trinisphere) is effective against miracles..

Zealous Persecution is an interesting pick, its good against elves and DnT..as a mono black player, i have to run both perish and dread of night for those matches..

That was certainly the point of running them over threats like tombstalker, which I still love regardless.

Persecution was good overall. I had it in the tezzeret match up and was able to blow him out a bit until I dropped engineered plague on thopter. Vs death and taxes it is definitely great as well being able to hit most every problem creature they run. The deck was a lot of fun overall. The main issue I had was one to be expected, time constraints. None of the tokens are a fast clock and the bodies are fragile and easily answered. May be worthwhile to test a sorin, solemn visitor out just to get that extra pump and lifegain.

[OmniStrata]

For a faster clock, might I suggest Chimeric Idol or Chimeric Sphere, depending on whether or not Moat is out? I noticed you don't use Cursed Scrolls or Mishra's factories. Both threats hit harder than anything else in the deck when unequipped.

[OmniStrata]

Tested Warping Wail as a 2 of, then a 1 of, then found what I needed.

I needed a threat that didn't need mana that dodged all my sac effects. 3 Innocent Blood, 4 Smallpox, 1 Pox are main decked and I ran into situations where if C. Scroll or Mishra's attacked, I couldn't cast the Wail at all unless I chose not to attack. It's envelop ability didn't have much use late game but was great against early game sorcs like tutors or Ponder or mana dorks and early game I don't use my threats as I'm busy disrupting first.

Late game I found myself killing top decked mana dorks or threats like Monastery Swiftspear and Delver of Secrets. By including a single Chimeric Idol to my threat list, I'm able to cast spells while punching for 3. Granted, it does conflict with Mishra's Factories and end of turn Cursed Scroll activations but being able to cast top decked spells while punching for 3 turned out to be a great idea. As a singleton, he doesn't conflict as hard as I thought he would. Even better, he's a pretty beefy blocker when you do decide to attack with a pair of Mishra's Factories.

So 4 Wails is too loud, lolz, 1 Wail works. Trick to the countering is against Miracles which casts it's sorceries at instant speed, damn cheaters with SDT. :mad:

On a high note, Wail works great when Night of Souls' Betrayal/Eng. Plague does it's job but doesn't kill your problem threats. It also gives your Wastelands something to do when the enemy decides to not fetch non-basic dual lands after the first Wasteland.

[mykatdied]

I would likely run a 1 of sorin over idol just for the fact that his tokens fly and he gives us what can be some much needed life back. Idol isn't a bad idea though. The main issue with a clock was when my threats were answered. I'll continue to test and update.

[OmniStrata]

I would likely run a 1 of sorin over idol just for the fact that his tokens fly and he gives us what can be some much needed life back. Idol isn't a bad idea though. The main issue with a clock was when my threats were answered. I'll continue to test and update.

In that case, you could run Chimeric Sphere for a 2/1 flier that costs as much as Mishra's to activate, or a 3/2 ground stomper. Problem is, like C. Scroll and Mishra's, do you cast what you drew or attack? Of course, super late game with 6+ lands on the field, that becomes less of an issue, assuming you burned some Wastelands and Smallpoxes on your own land and don't run Loam/Crucible.

I wouldn't worry much about life loss unless you keep getting burned to death. Spinning Darkness or Sun Droplet could heal you for chunks if you're really hurting I'd suppose and both are cheap on the mana base. Circle of Protection: Red prevents damage but feels too narrow when you could just directly heal yourself against more than just red bolts to the dome.

[mykatdied]

In that case, you could run Chimeric Sphere for a 2/1 flier that costs as much as Mishra's to activate, or a 3/2 ground stomper. Problem is, like C. Scroll and Mishra's, do you cast what you drew or attack? Of course, super late game with 6+ lands on the field, that becomes less of an issue, assuming you burned some Wastelands and Smallpoxes on your own land and don't run Loam/Crucible.

I wouldn't worry much about life loss unless you keep getting burned to death. Spinning Darkness or Sun Droplet could heal you for chunks if you're really hurting I'd suppose and both are cheap on the mana base. Circle of Protection: Red prevents damage but feels too narrow when you could just directly heal yourself against more than just red bolts to the dome.

There is certainly a lot to test. Mana usually isn't the issue as I have flagstones that tend to get sacrificed to smallpox and what not. I can't always count on that either though. I'll likely continue to test as is and maybe throw a random thing in once in awhile to see if I ever wish it was x card rather than what I am testing it for.

[OmniStrata]

Quick question for any rules advisors / judges.

I declare combat step. In response to activating Chimeric Idol, can I float mana as tapping all lands I control is the effect of paying 0? Would that allow me to cast Warping Wail in response to a Terminus activation off SDT?

Hell, I can pull off some wicked mind games if I had like 6 land out and floated 6 mana in response to Chimeric's ability.

[mykatdied]

Quick question for any rules advisors / judges.

I declare combat step. In response to activating Chimeric Idol, can I float mana as tapping all lands I control is the effect of paying 0? Would that allow me to cast Warping Wail in response to a Terminus activation off SDT?

Hell, I can pull off some wicked mind games if I had like 6 land out and floated 6 mana in response to Chimeric's ability.

The ability is able to be activated at instant speed. So yes, you could potentially do that of you chose to. Doing that every combat can certainly play mind games with your opponent. Holding lands and playing them post combat so you can still do other things is viable as well

[zenitramleirdag]

Quick question for any rules advisors / judges.

I declare combat step. In response to activating Chimeric Idol, can I float mana as tapping all lands I control is the effect of paying 0? Would that allow me to cast Warping Wail in response to a Terminus activation off SDT?

Hell, I can pull off some wicked mind games if I had like 6 land out and floated 6 mana in response to Chimeric's ability.

i remember in the old days, the mana pool is emptied at the end of each phase and at the beginning and end of an attack, plus you will also take mana burn..
i'm not an expert on the new rules..

[OmniStrata]

It is true you lose mana after combat phase so if my enemy is just going to sit there and let my 3/3 slap their dome instead of blocking or SDT activate>Terminus, that's fine. I've managed to stuff Terminus and Entreat the Angels with Warping Wail provided the SDT was Pithing Needled. ^_^

Being able to exile flashed in blockers before combat damage made me :eek:. Get slapped Vendillion Clique! :mad:

It's like how you have just a single Nether Spirit, Night of Souls' Betrayal or Spinning Darkness in your deck, but despite being a 1-of, you manage to see it in a majority of your games. :confused:

[eternaldarkness]

Have any of you guys ever noticed that unlimited sinkholes are a bit lighter in color compared to other black cards? I just noticed the color on mine and it has made me a bit paranoid..

[jredelstein]

Have any of you guys ever noticed that unlimited sinkholes are a bit lighter in color compared to other black cards? I just noticed the color on mine and it has made me a bit paranoid..

A lot of earlier sets have weird color variations, quality control was not the best (see misprint groups), unlimited has a very unique look color wise, second in my mind only to summer(edgar) magic. If your concern is potentially being fake have a dealer you trust look at them. Even the best Chinese fakes I've seen just don't look right be it color, text size, font, etc. The also tend to not have the right texture, waxy feel.

[eternaldarkness]

I had the sinkholes for a long time now; since 2007 so before the current crop of good fakes. I'm aware of the color variation. In this case, my sinkholes look different even when compared to another unlimited black card. Maybe I'm juts being paranoid. :tongue:

[OmniStrata]

If you unknowingly had counterfeit cards in your deck during a large tournament and for some reason or other someone suspects, what happens if you're found out? It's not 'fraud' in the legal sense as you didn't know nor cared but it wouldn't be as bad as say, a proxy you printed out on paper at magiccards.info would it?

I usually proxy cards in a deck for testing before I go and buy the real ones against friends and never in a tournament.

[jredelstein]

If you unknowingly had counterfeit cards in your deck during a large tournament and for some reason or other someone suspects, what happens if you're found out? It's not 'fraud' in the legal sense as you didn't know nor cared but it wouldn't be as bad as say, a proxy you printed out on paper at magiccards.info would it?

I usually proxy cards in a deck for testing before I go and buy the real ones against friends and never in a tournament.

I'll preface this by saying I am not a certified judge.

I would anticipate the lowest punishment would be that you would get a warning and be required to replace the cards with real ones if you want to continue, the worst would be a disqualification from the tournament (if malicious intent is determined or you are a repeat offender I could very easily see a DCI banning)

There is a lot of grey area here, if you have a printed "proxy" that you don't own the card it is hard to believe you didn't know about it. If it is determined to be a good fake (Like some Chinese ones) it is more likely you were just swindled into believing it was real(but could also mean you purchased a fake with the intention of using it in a tournament). I'd expect it comes down to the perceived intent of the player.

Judges are almost all reasonable people and do not want to disqualify you, and you can always appeal to the head judge.

[Hardcore]

The odds for this happening is very very small. I would expect a player using good copies to never be caught.

[OmniStrata]

Updated deck. Somewhat resembles Kurtis Frazier's deck in the primer but with Hymns kept in the main. I like card advantage and have setup the deck to inhale as much Card Advantage as possible. I've also brought back the old school Chimeric Idol as a 1-of so late game I can cast what I top deck and attack at the same time. I've found that Mishra's Factory and especially Cursed Scroll are mana hungry win cons that forces you to either ignore the spell you top decked, assuming it's useful, aka Sinkhole, or disrupt your opponent but deal no damage, which sort of sucks.

I've also removed the 'bombers' of Ratchet Bomb and Powder Keg. I need to stop bouncing back and forth between killing problem permanents or dropping problem permanents of my own. [facepalm] It's just not practical to tick up the bombs to deal with things like Leyline of Sanctity. Instead, I've brought in more win conditions that'll push the deck to 12 win cons in order to overwhelm a control deck.

No tournaments coming up that I can get to so just going to test against a Tendrils Storm deck, Omni-Tell, Miracles, and a handful of homebrew aggro decks. I'll post what's up next week or so.

[Hardcore]

I know your dilemma. I think it is worthwhile strategy to have diverse threats. Right know i run Mishra's Factory, Tombstalker, Bloodghast and The Rack. The later pair work very well vs Ensnaring bridge.

LoS is never any problem. It only stops my Hymns:-) Liliana and the poxes AND The Rack just ignore it.
Best scenario for me: someone mulligan to find LoS.

[OmniStrata]

I know your dilemma. I think it is worthwhile strategy to have diverse threats. Right know i run Mishra's Factory, Tombstalker, Bloodghast and The Rack. The later pair work very well vs Ensnaring bridge.

LoS is never any problem. It only stops my Hymns:-) Liliana and the poxes AND The Rack just ignore it.
Best scenario for me: someone mulligan to find LoS.

Actually, Leyline stops Liliana's more relevant abilities. If your enemy is just going to hold onto a card, then that's cool, but when you need to kill that threat, Liliana's -2 is out and her Ultimate is effectively pithing needled. That and my deck loses Hymn, Inquistion, and Cursed Scroll. Punching with Mishra's, N. Spirit and Chimeric Idol (the Gamera of my deck lol) works but damn if Jace isn't problematic when protected by a Leyline.

I do pack Rack, Shrieking Afflictions, Ankh of Mishra (underrated as hell btw), and Underworld Dreams in my SB just to overwhelm his defenses and murder his fetchlands. Black enchantments are quite OP with the right conditions being met.

[mykatdied]

Actually, Leyline stops Liliana's more relevant abilities. If your enemy is just going to hold onto a card, then that's cool, but when you need to kill that threat, Liliana's -2 is out and her Ultimate is effectively pithing needled. That and my deck loses Hymn, Inquistion, and Cursed Scroll. Punching with Mishra's, N. Spirit and Chimeric Idol (the Gamera of my deck lol) works but damn if Jace isn't problematic when protected by a Leyline.

I do pack Rack, Shrieking Afflictions, Ankh of Mishra (underrated as hell btw), and Underworld Dreams in my SB just to overwhelm his defenses and murder his fetchlands. Black enchantments are quite OP with the right conditions being met.

Ankh is actually something I have been wanting to test as a way to combat miracles. They do make a lot of land drops and use many fetchlands.

[Toxboy]

So I'll be playing in my local shops league final and since the metagame is pretty set I wondered if anyone have suggestions to what to potentially board against certain decks, interesting to know is that everyone essentially know Im playing GB Pox.

16 players
1 pox (me)
2 miracles (fun but hard match up)
1 elves (feel favored)
2 lands (I just dunno)
1 infect (he got leyline of sanctity sideboard)
1 burn (combo all the way)
1 uw blade variant or random
1 goblins
1 rug delver
1 bug delver
1 4 color delver
1 storm
1 death and taxes
1 ur sneak and show or omnishow(I feel largelt unfavored here)

There are small variance among the plays but its mostly people playing mote storm delver, lands and miracles in that case.

So any special suggestions on what to play

I can link a list if its of interest

[Toxboy]

So I'll be playing in my local shops league final and since the metagame is pretty set I wondered if anyone have suggestions to what to potentially board against certain decks, interesting to know is that everyone essentially know Im playing GB Pox.

16 players
1 pox (me)
2 miracles (fun but hard match up)
1 elves (feel favored)
2 lands (I just dunno)
1 infect (he got leyline of sanctity sideboard)
1 burn (combo all the way)
1 uw blade variant or random
1 goblins
1 rug delver
1 bug delver
1 4 color delver
1 storm
1 death and taxes
1 ur sneak and show or omnishow(I feel largelt unfavored here)

There are small variance among the plays but its mostly people playing mote storm delver, lands and miracles in that case.

So any special suggestions on what to play

I can link a list if its of interest

My current list if anyone actually is intersted, I'm 99% sure the basics of the list are from here but I'm not 100% sure who actually made the first list. I feel it's the deck with the most game against any type of deck, other then a weird sneak and show match up I don't know what it's really that bad against

NAME : Pox
// CREATOR : Teodor Sundberg
// FORMAT : Legacy
1 [] Barren Moor
1 [C14] Bojuka Bog
1 [OD] Cabal Pit
1 [CS] Dark Depths
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [KTK] Wooded Foothills
2 [UNH] Swamp
2 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
2 [M15] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 [R] Bayou
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs


1 [MM] Nether Spirit
3 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [CNS] Pernicious Deed
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [OD] Entomb
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
1 [OD] Innocent Blood
1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
1 [THS] Thoughtseize
3 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
3 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [CNS] Smallpox



SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 [RTR] Vraska the Unseen
SB: 1 [NE] Massacre
SB: 1 [] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
SB: 1 [OD] Coffin Purge
SB: 1 [DTK] Duress
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 2 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [] Barren Moor

[Hardcore]

i am not sure all the one-offs in the sb are a good idea. For a wishboard, sure, but you don't run wishes.

[mykatdied]

With entomb singletons like barren moor, raven's crime and coffin purge seem ok. But the other singletons seem odd. Like vraska, massacre, pulse etc. Sticking with one or 2 optimal options for each slot and run multiples seems better.

[Hardcore]

isn't there a loam pox thread somewhere, btw? It is quite a different deck after all.

[jredelstein]

So I'll be playing in my local shops league final and since the metagame is pretty set I wondered if anyone have suggestions to what to potentially board against certain decks, interesting to know is that everyone essentially know Im playing GB Pox.

There are small variance among the plays but its mostly people playing mote storm delver, lands and miracles in that case.

So any special suggestions on what to play

I can link a list if its of interest

16 players
1 pox (me)
2 miracles: Their mana is more important than cards in their hand, attack their mana, wasteland non-basics so small pox can hit basics, land liliana you should be all set. I really like garruk relentless for this match-up, they only have 1-2 council judgement as answers to my 4 liliana and 2 garruk
1 elves: crop rotate for tabernacle asap removal should do the rest.
2 lands: most important cards in this match-up are exploration and manabond, if both players only play 1 land a turn you'll win
1 infect: can be tough bc they have nut draws but something like Night of Soul's Betrayal can lock them out entirely, they are still a creature deck.
1 burn: crop rotate for glacial chasm or a quick marit lage, this match went from unwinnable to me feeling favored after I added the crop rotate main.
1 uw blade variant or random: blade decks are probably our best matchup, small pox and cabal therapy shine
1 goblins: same story as elves, find tabernacle
1 rug delver: same story as blade decks, tabernacle+wasteland can win on their own
1 bug delver
1 4 color delver
1 storm:you have a ton of discard just learn what to take, knowing how to play storm usually helps
1 death and taxes: more creature decks!
1 ur sneak and show or omnishow: I never liked playing this match-up until I added cabal therapy main, there are 2 cards that beat you, Griselbrand and sneak attack, show and tell emrakul is embarrassing against a deck with smallpox and lily. They need 2 cards in had to win so get them to zero cards fast, I like to bring in golgari charm from SB it answers a sneak attack that is played out before they have a creature and answers the common young pyromancer sideboard plan, or their SB blood moons.

Seems like a great meta for GB Pox!

[Toxboy]

isn't there a loam pox thread somewhere, btw? It is quite a different deck after all.

There is but it's dead and also my deck (which I now saw Jedelstein created) is featured in the primer for green splash so its not that far of.

[Toxboy]

With entomb singletons like barren moor, raven's crime and coffin purge seem ok. But the other singletons seem odd. Like vraska, massacre, pulse etc. Sticking with one or 2 optimal options for each slot and run multiples seems better.

There is actually some reasoning behind this apparent sub optimal split.

Most of my 1 ofs are Old 2 ofs that i split to have mer flexibility. And though i understand that stickning with an optimal card that is always better I have so far liked having just more flexibel answers since I got answers to everything Main already.

For exempel

1 vraska 1 pulse was 2 pulse before, she has been terrifying in testning vs decks as miracles that will usually just outright Lose to an active vraska (I have had players playing jace vs 7 Counter vraska just to get rid of 3 counters), I would like to have 2, but maelstrom pulse have been good enough to Warrant taking 1 of the slots vs decks were you want 1 more removal.

1 massacre 1 enginered plague was 2 massacre but since mentor is a thing and DnT isn't that bad i cut 1 massacre.

The krosan grip is mostly the 5th abrupt decay



If this makes any Sense, I have been having quite the sucess with it especially since most 1 of cards feel like they are the sideboard slots 5-7 extra vs certain decks.

The
1 null Rod
2 trini
2 sphere of resistance
1 duress
1 ravens crime

Are all storm slots that I wanted extra flexibility with.

The Cards I think I can cut are

Massacre for engineered plague ( or for night of souls betrayal)
Maelstrom pulse for vraska
Extirpate for random Graveyard hate

Does this seem resonable to change? And do anyone have suggestion for Graveyard hate int that case? Another crop rotation for bojuka bog?

[Toxboy]

16 players
1 pox (me)
2 miracles: Their mana is more important than cards in their hand, attack their mana, wasteland non-basics so small pox can hit basics, land liliana you should be all set. I really like garruk relentless for this match-up, they only have 1-2 council judgement as answers to my 4 liliana and 2 garruk
1 elves: crop rotate for tabernacle asap removal should do the rest.
2 lands: most important cards in this match-up are exploration and manabond, if both players only play 1 land a turn you'll win
1 infect: can be tough bc they have nut draws but something like Night of Soul's Betrayal can lock them out entirely, they are still a creature deck.
1 burn: crop rotate for glacial chasm or a quick marit lage, this match went from unwinnable to me feeling favored after I added the crop rotate main.
1 uw blade variant or random: blade decks are probably our best matchup, small pox and cabal therapy shine
1 goblins: same story as elves, find tabernacle
1 rug delver: same story as blade decks, tabernacle+wasteland can win on their own
1 bug delver
1 4 color delver
1 storm:you have a ton of discard just learn what to take, knowing how to play storm usually helps
1 death and taxes: more creature decks!
1 ur sneak and show or omnishow: I never liked playing this match-up until I added cabal therapy main, there are 2 cards that beat you, Griselbrand and sneak attack, show and tell emrakul is embarrassing against a deck with smallpox and lily. They need 2 cards in had to win so get them to zero cards fast, I like to bring in golgari charm from SB it answers a sneak attack that is played out before they have a creature and answers the common young pyromancer sideboard plan, or their SB blood moons.

Seems like a great meta for GB Pox!


Concerning burn i usually just trinisphere them since they can't really deal with it if they havent killed you first.

I am thinking about getting 1 night Of souls betrayal instead of massacre, does this seem reasonable? Especially with only 1 player on aggro with plains in their deck (Death and taxes) also a toxic deluge or pernicious deed could be good here.

The now 1 of extirpate (before coffin purge 2/1 split with 1 surgical extration) Is also a way to win the lands match up.
This could become the 4th crop rotation as well.

And concerning the meta I was thinking the same thing.

[mykatdied]

There is actually some reasoning behind this apparent sub optimal split.

Most of my 1 ofs are Old 2 ofs that i split to have mer flexibility. And though i understand that stickning with an optimal card that is always better I have so far liked having just more flexibel answers since I got answers to everything Main already.

For exempel

1 vraska 1 pulse was 2 pulse before, she has been terrifying in testning vs decks as miracles that will usually just outright Lose to an active vraska (I have had players playing jace vs 7 Counter vraska just to get rid of 3 counters), I would like to have 2, but maelstrom pulse have been good enough to Warrant taking 1 of the slots vs decks were you want 1 more removal.

1 massacre 1 enginered plague was 2 massacre but since mentor is a thing and DnT isn't that bad i cut 1 massacre.

The krosan grip is mostly the 5th abrupt decay



If this makes any Sense, I have been having quite the sucess with it especially since most 1 of cards feel like they are the sideboard slots 5-7 extra vs certain decks.

The
1 null Rod
2 trini
2 sphere of resistance
1 duress
1 ravens crime

Are all storm slots that I wanted extra flexibility with.

The Cards I think I can cut are

Massacre for engineered plague ( or for night of souls betrayal)
Maelstrom pulse for vraska
Extirpate for random Graveyard hate

Does this seem resonable to change? And do anyone have suggestion for Graveyard hate int that case? Another crop rotation for bojuka bog?

Makes sense to me. I do tend to do the same thing. Such as split between a pulse and vindicate because they serve similar purposes but slightly different possible uses. So I can understand that. I tend to just figure which one makes mire sense so I have a more clear cut game plan post board rather than varying answers to different things

[Hardcore]

Given how powerful the combo is i would have put the fourth entomb and crop rotation in the sb. But then i am a four of everything guy.

[OmniStrata]

Concerning burn i usually just trinisphere them since they can't really deal with it if they havent killed you first.

I am thinking about getting 1 night Of souls betrayal instead of massacre, does this seem reasonable? Especially with only 1 player on aggro with plains in their deck (Death and taxes) also a toxic deluge or pernicious deed could be good here.

The now 1 of extirpate (before coffin purge 2/1 split with 1 surgical extration) Is also a way to win the lands match up.
This could become the 4th crop rotation as well.

And concerning the meta I was thinking the same thing.

Best board sweeper ever! Of course, you can't run wimps like Bloodghast or Lingering Souls with a monster like this on the field. Being a Legendary, it'd be fine as a 1-of but shines as a 2-of as well. I run 1 with a single Engineered Plague as -1/-2 to nuisances like DRS and Zombie hordes.

[Hardcore]

i am thinking maybe sadistic sacrament would be good vs miracles. Anyone have any experience using that card?.

[Toxboy]

i am thinking maybe sadistic sacrament would be good vs miracles. Anyone have any experience using that card?.

I know Earwig squad does a good job for goblins so could work, though I'm personality not sure how good it is since I have so far Quite the positive record vs miracles.

[Aquamaniac]

I saw some people sharing their BW list a few pages ago, figured I'd share mine for some input.

Deck: BW Pox (60)

// Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Marsh Flats
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Scrubland
5 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

// Spells
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lingering Souls
1 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate
4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Liliana of the Veil

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 2 Porphyry Nodes
SB: 2 Spinning Darkness
SB: 1 Thoughtseize

I've only run this in local small-scale tournies. Innocent Blood used to be STP, but I prefer Innocent Blood more in the local meta.

[mykatdied]

I saw some people sharing their BW list a few pages ago, figured I'd share mine for some input.

Deck: BW Pox (60)

// Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Marsh Flats
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Scrubland
5 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

// Spells
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lingering Souls
1 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate
4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Liliana of the Veil

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 2 Porphyry Nodes
SB: 2 Spinning Darkness
SB: 1 Thoughtseize

I've only run this in local small-scale tournies. Innocent Blood used to be STP, but I prefer Innocent Blood more in the local meta.

In your list I can definitely see the reason why you would want innocent blood. I mainly run swords to Plowshares because I run tombstalker and want less symmetrical sacrifice effects. Running tombstalker also makes up for the life an opponent can gain from swords by being a much faster clock than souls or factory.

I do have to ask, why porphyry nodes? Not sure how great that seems. I guess it does hit nimble mongoose, tnn and other possible hexproof threats. It just seems loose to me. Engineered plague is likely better for that slot as it has a lasting effect against decks like elves, merfolk and even mentor builds. Otherwise most decks likely don't run enough creatures to make it that worthwhile. Our sacrifice effects already handle the creature light decks and nodes can oftentimes come down a bit too late or too early and not actually get much value. How has testing been proving for you on that?

I'm very interested if you have had much luck with it as well. What seem to be weak and strong match ups etc.

[Aquamaniac]

In your list I can definitely see the reason why you would want innocent blood. I mainly run swords to Plowshares because I run tombstalker and want less symmetrical sacrifice effects. Running tombstalker also makes up for the life an opponent can gain from swords by being a much faster clock than souls or factory.

I do have to ask, why porphyry nodes? Not sure how great that seems. I guess it does hit nimble mongoose, tnn and other possible hexproof threats. It just seems loose to me. Engineered plague is likely better for that slot as it has a lasting effect against decks like elves, merfolk and even mentor builds. Otherwise most decks likely don't run enough creatures to make it that worthwhile. Our sacrifice effects already handle the creature light decks and nodes can oftentimes come down a bit too late or too early and not actually get much value. How has testing been proving for you on that?

I'm very interested if you have had much luck with it as well. What seem to be weak and strong match ups etc.

Porphyry Nodes was the budget go to over The Abyss and has really helped deal with Monastery Mentor if they get a trigger or two off, but Engineered Plague definitely seems like a better option (I can't believe no one in my group thought about it). Personally, my biggest struggle is being on the draw against a turn 1 Aether Vial. I have a few local Fish players, and every match comes down to "can I keep Vial off the table." Nodes has done work in these situations, but not often enough. UWR Delver is always a bit of a struggle, as is OmniTell (every win I've pulled off against OmniTell has been off of incredibly risky plays that somehow work). EsperBlade doesn't pose as much as a problem, any iteration of Nic Fit is an absolute shut out for them. I lose to storm variants more than I should, its always just me making mistakes. I've yet to not draw against D&T on this build. Elves, Grixis, and Miracles rarely show up.

The "creature-less" aspect of the list still throws people off. The one UWR Delver player keeps bringing in Containment Priest against me. even though we've all told him it doesn't do anything. My meta has been hate free since, well, forever (stompy decks don't even make appearances). I'm sure given the rest of the year I'll have to start making drastic changes to how I pilot it to do well in the small room setting.

There's a tourny coming up next week, I'll throw in the E.Plagues and watch them perform better than Nodes (R.I.P. cool art).

[mykatdied]

Porphyry Nodes was the budget go to over The Abyss and has really helped deal with Monastery Mentor if they get a trigger or two off, but Engineered Plague definitely seems like a better option (I can't believe no one in my group thought about it). Personally, my biggest struggle is being on the draw against a turn 1 Aether Vial. I have a few local Fish players, and every match comes down to "can I keep Vial off the table." Nodes has done work in these situations, but not often enough. UWR Delver is always a bit of a struggle, as is OmniTell (every win I've pulled off against OmniTell has been off of incredibly risky plays that somehow work). EsperBlade doesn't pose as much as a problem, any iteration of Nic Fit is an absolute shut out for them. I lose to storm variants more than I should, its always just me making mistakes. I've yet to not draw against D&T on this build. Elves, Grixis, and Miracles rarely show up.

The "creature-less" aspect of the list still throws people off. The one UWR Delver player keeps bringing in Containment Priest against me. even though we've all told him it doesn't do anything. My meta has been hate free since, well, forever (stompy decks don't even make appearances). I'm sure given the rest of the year I'll have to start making drastic changes to how I pilot it to do well in the small room setting.

There's a tourny coming up next week, I'll throw in the E.Plagues and watch them perform better than Nodes (R.I.P. cool art).

Nodes isn't the worst idea by far. I have just never liked it as the only way you truly get value is when you are behind on the board. For my bw list I went with stalker and nether spirit because they work fine with night of souls betrayal and combine that with engineered plague and you pretty much never lose the tribal match up.

Personally one of the best ways to beat vial is to bring pithing needle and let them have 4 dead cards in their deck once you have named vial. If they don't see any artifact or enchantments game 1 they are unlikely to bring in hate for it. Although crucible could instigate that. Engineered plague is also good vs death and taxes naming human. At least it kills mother of Runes, thalia and nerfs crusader quite a bit. The rest of your creature kill can handle the rest plus without access to thalia they can't hinder your ability to play multiple spells a turn with the tax effect she brings.

Patriot delver can be a tough match up. If they see you are creatureless main board they are likely to board out some removal, most likely swords to plow. This can allow you to run something like stalker or for a brief period of time I ran desecration demon. He plays extremely well with our game plan and encourages people to sacrifice their creatures which is just gravy.

Way back when I first piloted my original bw list I wrote a brief tournament report. Here is the link http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/179854-deck-pox-primer?comment=2896

[Hardcore]

how does storm interact with counterbalance?

[jredelstein]

how does storm interact with counterbalance?

They play main board discard, Duress, and Cabal Therapy, and sideboard into Abrupt Decay

[Hardcore]

sorry, i meant how spells with storm mechanic interact with counterbalance. Can it counter all the copies?

[Bobmans]

Counterbalance oracle texting:
"Whenever an opponent casts a spell, you may reveal the top card of your library. If you do, counter that spell if it has the same converted mana cost as the revealed card."

Meaning that CB only trigger's on the casted spell, but doesn't trigger on the storm copies since those aren't cast. Rather the storm copies are put on the stack. Specific part of the wording: "..casts a spell, ... counter that spell...".

Additionally, that means potentially the original spell is countered by CB, but the storm triggered copies remain on the stack and resolve unless another effect prevents them to.

[Hardcore]

Thank you! That means Bitter ordeal may be better sb card, vs miracles, than Sadistic sacrament.

[Hardcore]

Porphyry Nodes was the budget go to over The Abyss and has really helped deal with Monastery Mentor if they get a trigger or two off, but Engineered Plague definitely seems like a better option (I can't believe no one in my group thought about it). Personally, my biggest struggle is being on the draw against a turn 1 Aether Vial. I have a few local Fish players, and every match comes down to "can I keep Vial off the table." Nodes has done work in these situations, but not often enough. UWR Delver is always a bit of a struggle, as is OmniTell (every win I've pulled off against OmniTell has been off of incredibly risky plays that somehow work). EsperBlade doesn't pose as much as a problem, any iteration of Nic Fit is an absolute shut out for them. I lose to storm variants more than I should, its always just me making mistakes. I've yet to not draw against D&T on this build. Elves, Grixis, and Miracles rarely show up.

The "creature-less" aspect of the list still throws people off. The one UWR Delver player keeps bringing in Containment Priest against me. even though we've all told him it doesn't do anything. My meta has been hate free since, well, forever (stompy decks don't even make appearances). I'm sure given the rest of the year I'll have to start making drastic changes to how I pilot it to do well in the small room setting.

There's a tourny coming up next week, I'll throw in the E.Plagues and watch them perform better than Nodes (R.I.P. cool art).

Storm is best stoped by taxing effects like chalice or thorn of amethyst. I see you run nine 1cc discards spells. Those in the SB are probably redundant, so try switch them for something else.

[zenitramleirdag]

i agree, its not safe to rely on just discard to stop storm since they have brainstrom to hide their important spells and past in flames to flash them back..i've had better success against storm using sphere effects like sphere of resistance/trinisphere and extraction effects like extirpate and surgical extraction..i once had a storm player scoop when on the first turn, i ritualed into an inquisition of kozilek nabbing infernal tutor, following it with a surgical extraction then using the remaining 2 mana to cast sphere of resistance..

[OmniStrata]

Thank you! That means Bitter ordeal may be better sb card, vs miracles, than Sadistic sacrament.

I've tested Sadistic Sacrament and after looking at Bitter Ordeal, I'd say Sadistic is better. Less conditions to be met and what Miracles deck has a large number of 3 cmc spells? I think the only problem I've seen in the past was weirdness like Blood Moon tutored with Enlightened Tutor.

I too see Miracles as a problem deck since we like low mana spells due to Wastes and Poxing and they play the long game with a large land count and can set their draws to be superior to ours.

Once there was a time I ran 4 Poxes main deck alongside 4 Lilianas. Suffice it to say, my Miracles buddy didn't enjoy losing 15+ land to his graveyard. Problem ultimately, is that swarming becomes more problematic than I'd like.

I've found dealing with Miracles involves a truckload of disruption in the form of Land killing, Fetchland prevention, and Pithing Needle. Oddly enough, preventing reshuffles by surgically extracting Ponder and Fetches can give you an edge when their SDT starts giving them garbage cards after 3 turns. CounterBalance itself is less of an issue.

If you have the option of destroying one or the other, let it be SDT because top decking sux for us.

[Hardcore]

yeah, lost to angels last tuesday. :P

[Hardcore]

Sadistic sacrament should be brutal vs 12 post.

[zenitramleirdag]

it could work though it seems a tad bit slow..
i prefer wasting one of their cloudposts or glimmerposts then following it up with a surgical extraction..

[Hardcore]

Yeah, did that to the local player. :laugh:Now he plays pithing needle in main deck(!).

Needle AND Warping wail.

[blubberpompnao]

Hey guys I really like Life from the Loam and I REALLY like Pox BUT I'm having trouble finding a good "stock" Loam Pox list. Anyone got any good recommendations?

[zenitramleirdag]

Hey guys I really like Life from the Loam and I REALLY like Pox BUT I'm having trouble finding a good "stock" Loam Pox list. Anyone got any good recommendations?

mr. edelstein is a good loam pox pilot, he should be able to shine some light on your case..

[Toxboy]

Hey guys I really like Life from the Loam and I REALLY like Pox BUT I'm having trouble finding a good "stock" Loam Pox list. Anyone got any good recommendations?

Since there's only really a few people playing pox Loam Its hard to say if there's truly a stock list
I wouldnt go so far as call this a true aggregate but it's my opinion on what's important in the deck.

I would say the carda you absolutely should play are

4 1 mana target discard
4 smallpox
3-4 abrupt decay
3-4 lilliana of the veil

3-4 hymn to tourach
3 loam
3-4 entomb
3-4 crop rotation
1-2 ravens crime
1 nether spirit

The lands that are neccessary in my opinion are
Wasteland
Mishras factory
Tabernacle
Bojuka bog
Dark depths
Thespians stage
Cabal pit
Actual gb mana base (fetch basics bayou)

After that I think the rest is up to play style, alternatives ranges from more graveyard, creatures, lands and different removal.

[jredelstein]

Hey guys I really like Life from the Loam and I REALLY like Pox BUT I'm having trouble finding a good "stock" Loam Pox list. Anyone got any good recommendations?

This is the list I have been playing

Spells
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Crop Rotation
2 Life from the Loam
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Entomb
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Raven’s Crime

Creatures
1 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit

Lands
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mishra’s Factory
2 Thespian Stage
2 Misty Rainforest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Dark Depths
1 Cabal Pit
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Sideboard
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Disfigure
2 Extirpate
2 Golgari Charm
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Duress


Toxboy gave a nice overview above. Let me add some.

My older list before thespian stage was more grindy, winning with only Bloodghast and Mishra's Factory
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69791
Crop Rotation was in the sideboard and functioned as creature removal with Cabal Pit and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and also worked as graveyard hate with Bojuka Bog and to fetch Karakas against reanimator or sneak and show. I love this build and still think it is a better deck than the ones with Dark Depths but being able to win fast with Marit Lage was a necessary concession to time concerns at tournaments(I started 3-0-3 at a Legacy Open bc of slow Miracles players).

Entomb does a lot of things for us too, it can grab Life from the Loam, Bloodghast, a land, Cabal Therapy, or Raven's Crime allowing us to start attacking with creatures, attack their hand, or start an engine like Wasteland-Loam (Even better with Tabernacle).

Toxboy stated how important The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is, I agree but if you don't have access to one just be aware that you need to gear you deck to it, Tabernacle does a lot of work answering multiple threats while keeping our opponent from adding to the board, if you don't have one I'd recommend playing Pernicious Deed main as it also helps clean up the board and answers almost everything. There are a lot of game when I fall behind but if I find I Deed I am right back in it or now very favored to win. I'd say about half our cards are objectively powerful but all become awesome as part of an engine. Liliana of the Veil is a powerful magic card as is Smallpox but when combined with Bloodghast and Life from the Loam they are even better. I could list 100 card interactions that make individual cards better than usual in our deck.

There are a lot of cards that fit, I probably have 200 cards in my binder just for my GB Pox.

Good luck with building, we are here to help and learn,
Josh

[mykatdied]

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11641&f=LE

This b/w list got 1st out of 83.

[Quitrex]

Ok, that b/w list looks like a blast. a touch aggressive for my taste, but very fun starting point.
also, one thing that i'm not getting: why do people go with the full graveyard exiling effects over the rest of your surgical or extirpates? personally, I feel like there's always something specific that I just never want to see again as opposed to just grabbing a club and hoping i get an opportunity to hit them with it.

[zenitramleirdag]

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11641&f=LE

This b/w list got 1st out of 83.

that big pox at the board though..

[Hardcore]

Armageddon vs Miracles. Nice

[zenitramleirdag]

Armageddon vs Miracles. Nice


true..
and miracles is also one of the few matches where i like big pox..
they have very few 3cmc spells in their deck, if im not mistaken its only vendillion clique and monastery mentor, and maybe a lone Izzet Staticaster at the side so its likely to resolve..big pox is also good in keeping them off 4 mana to prevent them from casting jace or entreat the angels..

[mykatdied]

I really like the list. Not sure I like the lack of urborg or flagstones since those have been soo good for me in my bw builds. Plus turn 2 you can flagstones, urborg smallpox discarding ghast and trigger stones to recur ghast and not get set back a land. Otherwise seems sweet to me. Would love to chat with the pilot if he sees this.

[Toxboy]

true..
and miracles is also one of the few matches where i like big pox..
they have very few 3cmc spells in their deck, if im not mistaken its only vendillion clique and monastery mentor, and maybe a lone Izzet Staticaster at the side so its likely to resolve..big pox is also good in keeping them off 4 mana to prevent them from casting jace or entreat the angels..

On top of my head most miracles list will also contain council's judgement and entreat the angels as other 3's, there should be 1-2 more potential cards they could have in sideboard

[blubberpompnao]

Toxboy gave a nice overview above. Let me add some.

My older list before thespian stage was more grindy, winning with only Bloodghast and Mishra's Factory
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69791
Crop Rotation was in the sideboard and functioned as creature removal with Cabal Pit and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and also worked as graveyard hate with Bojuka Bog and to fetch Karakas against reanimator or sneak and show. I love this build and still think it is a better deck than the ones with Dark Depths but being able to win fast with Marit Lage was a necessary concession to time concerns at tournaments(I started 3-0-3 at a Legacy Open bc of slow Miracles players).

Entomb does a lot of things for us too, it can grab Life from the Loam, Bloodghast, a land, Cabal Therapy, or Raven's Crime allowing us to start attacking with creatures, attack their hand, or start an engine like Wasteland-Loam (Even better with Tabernacle).

Toxboy stated how important The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is, I agree but if you don't have access to one just be aware that you need to gear you deck to it, Tabernacle does a lot of work answering multiple threats while keeping our opponent from adding to the board, if you don't have one I'd recommend playing Pernicious Deed main as it also helps clean up the board and answers almost everything. There are a lot of game when I fall behind but if I find I Deed I am right back in it or now very favored to win. I'd say about half our cards are objectively powerful but all become awesome as part of an engine. Liliana of the Veil is a powerful magic card as is Smallpox but when combined with Bloodghast and Life from the Loam they are even better. I could list 100 card interactions that make individual cards better than usual in our deck.

There are a lot of cards that fit, I probably have 200 cards in my binder just for my GB Pox.

Good luck with building, we are here to help and learn,
Josh

Luckily for me, my other deck is RUG Lands so I have the Tabernacle.

Do you have a decklist I could look at? Preferably what your current list is. I just want to compare and contrast as many I can so I can proxy something up and see if I like it or not.

[Mr. Safety]

One sideboard card that I've latched onto is Engineered Plague over Pernicious Deed. I still play one deed main, but its often too slow where plague does some immediate work.

Current list, but I haven't played it on a few months:

4x vampire hexmage
4x smallpox
3x inquisition of kozilek
3x thoughtseize
2x hymn to tourach
3x liliana of the veil
1x garruk relentless
3x abrupt decay
1x pernicious deed
1x maelstrom pulse
4x crop rotation
2x sylvan library
3x life from the loam
4x verdant catacombs
1x marsh flats
1x windswept heath
1x bayou
3x swamp
2x forest
4x urborg
3x barren moor
4x wasteland
1x dark depths
1x thespians stage
1x cabal pit

Sideboard

3x engineered plague
2x krosan grip
2x surgical extraction
2x choke
2x disfigure
1x glacial chasm
1x bojuka bog
2x pithing needle

I've essentially swapped out mishras factory and bloodghast/spirit for hexmages. They allow for quick combos with rotation, have first strike so they block well, and they basically preboard against opposing pws. There are other fringe benefits (hosing chalice and ratchet bomb) but they still just beat for 2 with a nut draw into rotation ending games fast. The lands look funny...but I minimize opposing wasteland effectiveness and I can have better odds against blood moon, hence the 5 basics and only one bayou.

[Toxboy]

Luckily for me, my other deck is RUG Lands so I have the Tabernacle.

Do you have a decklist I could look at? Preferably what your current list is. I just want to compare and contrast as many I can so I can proxy something up and see if I like it or not.

http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=88&meta=16&f=LE

Contains a lot of old lists, there is at least my new lists here, I made some small uppdates but I usually change about 1 card per week

[zenitramleirdag]

On top of my head most miracles list will also contain council's judgement and entreat the angels as other 3's, there should be 1-2 more potential cards they could have in sideboard

oh yeah, i overlooked that..thanks Toxboy..

[Quitrex]

So, am I the only one that looked at the open this weekend and thought that it might be time to start finding room for Pox again?

[mykatdied]

So, am I the only one that looked at the open this weekend and thought that it might be time to start finding room for Pox again?

Nope, I will likely be sleeving up shardless pox for serious testing in the months coming up to SCG Worcester.

[Toxboy]

Has anyone tried the eldrazi matchup? I want to try it but unsure how bad or good It is.

From what i seen it should a LOT of Cards that are really good vs them especially if they don't have chalice.

GB should be decent since we can always abrupt chalice giving us a clean answernif we need to

[Quitrex]

I have a friend who built about 71/75 Gerry's list from the open independently, and we jammed a few matches. From the way the eldrazi matchup seems to look, your primary angle of attack should be their mana. It's basically like playing against Mud, except they're faster and they're less resilient to edicts. They also periodically peel you off rituals and one mana hand disruption. I've found that the abrupt decay are more likely to point at the sphere of resistance effect than the chalice, unless they wise up and drop chalice on two. He was regularly in a position where Pox would have just dragged him all the way out of the game, kicking and screaming. Given that the metagame feels like it might be spiraling into a miracles/eldrazi/lands rock paper scissors variant, I feel like slotting one to two pox into the deck might not be a terrible thing, as long as you can keep your game against the rest of the field mostly even, and make sure your board can slaughter lands without losing a few choice tools for miracles. I also don't feel like Toxic Deluge or Damnation in the 75 is a terrible idea, even though I still like BSZ, because it feels like the more 'go wide' creature decks such as merfolk or goblins aren't terrible against the Eldrazi that might be cropping up. but that's just my two cents.

[mykatdied]

Black sun's zenith seems like a good meta call right now to me as well. At the very least if we are running top it does give us an additional reusable shuffle effect that can come back over and over again, especially in the longer grindy games.

[Hardcore]

what is this eldrazi deck you are speaking of?

[Quitrex]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=99286, got second and put 3 more copies into the top 16.s

[Quitrex]

Also, I'm currently inclined to look at damnation or deluge over BSZ right now because of how large menfolk get and the absolute size of the eldrazi.

[Hardcore]

Tnx!

[mykatdied]

Also, I'm currently inclined to look at damnation or deluge over BSZ right now because of how large menfolk get and the absolute size of the eldrazi.

In all fairness we can beat merfolk pretty handily without sweepers any way. As far as zenith goes the benefit is that it is cheaper for killing smaller hoards and shuffles back in, only getting better as the game goes on

[Chiptoon]

While I think Relentless Dead is still worse than Nether Spirit in almost every way. Isn't this card kind of interesting for Pox? I haven't had time to use Gatherer on zombies but there has to be some cool ones we could play in mono black.

[Hardcore]

I would like to play geralfs masterpiece, but he is blue(!).

[mykatdied]

While I think Relentless Dead is still worse than Nether Spirit in almost every way. Isn't this card kind of interesting for Pox? I haven't had time to use Gatherer on zombies but there has to be some cool ones we could play in mono black.

An old friend of mine piloted mono black pox to a top 8 a while back with mutavault, gravecrawler and a couple of the rack for a very aggressive build.

[Quitrex]

While I don't think that Relentless Dead is worth it in Legacy pox unless you want to go mutavault/Gravecrawler/Contamination or Rack, I think it is a resilient enough kill condition that i'm going to look at a Modern Build. Also, I am willing to defer to your judgement on Menfolk. Haven't actually played that matchup, so I was just speculating, and I prefer BSZ given the choice (Here D&T D&T D&T...)

[Hardcore]

Thing in the ice looks to be next creature for the delver decks.
Only solace is that they will not have slots for all the op creatures they get.

[Quitrex]

Honestly, I'm not worried about them getting another creature. They, as a Deck, don't get more than 14 creature slots, which is fewer than the number of creatures we can make them sacrifice. There's also the point where it's another two drop, so hitting them hard in the mana base is suddenly a much more viable option for pulling them off of threats. it'd make my day all bright and happy if they pulled their mongoos for a couple copies.

[Hardcore]

I went 3-1 today with the following deck. I lost first round to Death and taxes but rallied and Defeated Goblins, Miracles and Aggro-Loam.
Contagion is old school but i find it useful in the meta now. Skullcage is useful for decks that don't run pox but do run chalice of the void. This deck otoh is too often short on mana.


4 Bloodghast
3 tombstalker
4 nihilith

4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Pox
4 contagion
3 liliana of the veil
2 sensei's divining top
2 skullcage
2 surgical extraction

13 Swamp
4 bloodstained mire
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 wasteland

SB
1 liliana of the veil
2 extirpate
2 surgical extraction
4 chalice of the void
4 engineered plague
2 underworld dreams

[Hardcore]

I lost badly to theDnT. I got mana problems and he played SFM. I am not sure what to do with this match-up. Dread of night would be a good answer but very specific for this match up. And it doesn't stop SFM.

Goblins, otoh, is about general destruction. Also, making sure to draw the engineered plagues.
I lost the first duel. It was not worth fighting hard for since i had EP in the sideboard.
He had a combat trick with Earwig squad but only found two of my plagues.


Miracles won the first duel by just getting control in true style.
The next i got a chalice in play and raced his Monastery Mentor, and Snapcaster, with Tombstalker.
(His STP was sadly stuck in his hand.) I also had Underworld dreams in play. I figured his deck was mostly geared towards creature defense.
Third duel was quick. I removed all his flooded strand with a surgical (i think) and followed up with Liliana. Scoop.

Lastly i meet Aggro loam. I just outright did the pox thing: Ripping hands and nuking lands. He never drew any loam. Not that it would have done much good to him.
(It is with these decks, and miracles, in mind i bought two extirpate.)
In absence of any loam i just exiled all his punishing fire.

[Quitrex]

That list looks fun. And very direct about getting the other guy to 0. I'ma give something similar a try at legacy night next week. Curious about no Pithing Needle, as I find that either it or Null Rod would probably help against D&T. It looks like your primary concern is a mix between AEther Vial meaning they can be the one attacking your mana and Equipment (specifically Batterskull) meaning they can trade punches with your threats in the long game, but I haven't tested with your list vs. them yet, so I'm just spitballing.

[Hardcore]

Thanks! Needles might be what i an looking for. It would stop all DnTs ugly stuff: vials, SFM and Ports. I will need to buy a fourth. (can't have too many in play):-)

[Quitrex]

Personally, vs. D&T, I've always liked needling Vial then dropping a chalice on two. watch em squirm a bit. I usually prefer going for whichever equipment they grab over hitting SFM herself, simply because they can't just drop it and hit you with it anyways. D&T seems like one of the few matches that can actually hope to draw the game out and get to hard casting batter skull, so i'm not too sad about informing them that that card is a one shot unless they want to waste a precious flickerwisp on it, and I don't like losing the game to a SFM equipped with jitte or SoFF after I name her with needle. By and large, though, I think it comes down to personal preference, as I'm also looking at going some sort of split on plague and BSZ, partially because the closest we have in our meta to tribal decks is we have one guy who's been toying with eldrazi and we have one guy on deathrite maverick. Thinking on starting with
1 Nether Spirit
3 Nihility
2 Tombstalker
2 IoK (kind of up in the air on this slot, Considering Rituals, since Chalice on two is surprisingly good in my local meta)
2 Top
2 Surgical
4 Seize
4 Hymn
4 Smallpox
1 Crucible
3 Liliana
3 Pox
3 Contagion
2 Murderous Cut
5 Black Fetch
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
10 Swamp

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Extirpate
2 Surgical
4 Needle
3 Between BSZ, Plague, Night of Soul's Betrayal

[Hardcore]

i that package it would be nice with the rack. Five 1cc discard is as good six, and you can play with a 61 card deck. This leaves you with slots for two the rack.

[Quitrex]

True. Rack vs affliction, as there's a good bit of incidental Artifact hate in my meta?

[cBiscuit]

Hello all,

I am new to these forums, and new to this format. Though I know I would like to play Pox. I am friends with a few legacy players in my area that have a few major tournament wins under their belt, and I am wanting to compete at their level sooner rather than later(I myself am an accomplished competitive player, though not in the legacy scene). I have a deck list, and am wanting some help on refining it. I am looking at 2 different variants, 1 with loam(that i need help splashing green for), and 1 that is mono black.

The mono B list is built already, but the loam is not. Here is the current deck list:

Main Deck:
1 Nether Spirit
1 Darkblast
1 Extirpate
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Raven's Crime
3 Thoughtseize
3 Innocent Blood
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Chainer's Edict
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Worm Harvest
4 Entomb
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishaden Port
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
6 Swamp

Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Engineered Plague
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Helm of Obedience
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Nether Void
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal

With the loam list, I would like to keep the idea similar. Was thinking only 1 Loam in the deck(as an easy entomb target), and it is the lands that I really need help with. Any advice would be amazing though.

[Hardcore]

True. Rack vs affliction, as there's a good bit of incidental Artifact hate in my meta?

Affliction then. It makes casting contagion a tiny wee bit easier, is good vs glacial chasm, but it lack the ability to kill planeswaljers.
Its wash really.

[Hardcore]

Hello all,

I am new to these forums, and new to this format. Though I know I would like to play Pox. I am friends with a few legacy players in my area that have a few major tournament wins under their belt, and I am wanting to compete at their level sooner rather than later(I myself am an accomplished competitive player, though not in the legacy scene). I have a deck list, and am wanting some help on refining it. I am looking at 2 different variants, 1 with loam(that i need help splashing green for), and 1 that is mono black.

The mono B list is built already, but the loam is not. Here is the current deck list:

Main Deck:
1 Nether Spirit
1 Darkblast
1 Extirpate
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Raven's Crime
3 Thoughtseize
3 Innocent Blood
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Chainer's Edict
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Worm Harvest
4 Entomb
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishaden Port
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
6 Swamp

Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Engineered Plague
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Helm of Obedience
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Nether Void
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal

With the loam list, I would like to keep the idea similar. Was thinking only 1 Loam in the deck(as an easy entomb target), and it is the lands that I really need help with. Any advice would be amazing though.



I have said it before: If splashing green then you should. run Dark depths/thespian stage combo.
Anything else is sub-optimal.
This means also running crop rotation and more loams.

[Quitrex]

First, that would appear to be the mono b list, which looks a little light on mana producing lands, and specifically b producing lands, for what you're interested in. Second, mon black lists generally don't get to support retrace spells, as there are minimal ways to return lands to your hand and better options for the effects you're trying to create. This also creates minimal utility for entomb. I am currently in agreement with HC about wanting to be on a more clock-dense, pox heavy version if you are playing mono-b, and will be testing the basic list I posted recently and posting the results on Tuesday. I also don't generally approve of port in pox due to being largely incapable of applying enough pressure to capitalize on the four turns it will buy you. I have my own views on splashing g in pox that I'll go into when I'm not at work.