[Primer/Deck] Pox

[OmniStrata]

I agree on the port point for the same reason I can't run Sensei's Divining Top in Pox. That 1 mana used always is cause for regret. That and SDT without fetchlands gives you garbage after 4 turns. Port works in them Aether Vial decks cause you know, free creatures...

Going to own Nether Void this month before it's price goes out of control.

The price tags on Ensnaring Bridge and Crucible spiked something fierce recently and I'm not a fan of Legacy's barrier of entry going up even further. On the other hand, the price of Force of Will speculation means I get to fight more FoW decks which Hymn to Tourach lovers will always enjoy.

Outside Chimeric Idol and Nether Spirit, if only there were more threats that didn't cost anything to punch your opponent in the face and dodge Poxing at the same time.

Cursed Scroll, though effective it is without question, is still annoying when your mana is tight and you have to choose between casting a bomb (like Pox), or punching for 2 using 3 mana. I'm actually considering ditching my Cursed Scrolls for just all Idols and damning the consequences cause Jace's stupid Fateseal laughs in the face of traditional weenies :mad:

[mykatdied]

Haunted plate mail is something that was being tested for a bit when it got released. It dodges sorcery speed removal, plus abrupt decay and it punches pretty hard. The 4 cmc isn't ideal though.

Personally I liked having top. I ran it with dakmor salvage which was actually pretty good.

[Toxboy]

Haunted plate mail is something that was being tested for a bit when it got released. It dodges sorcery speed removal, plus abrupt decay and it punches pretty hard. The 4 cmc isn't ideal though.

Personally I liked having top. I ran it with dakmor salvage which was actually pretty good.

Top with loam, cycle lands and fetches is pretty disgusting actually. For the green black variants, I think the first top is very good since you can't then get locked with multiples.

I dislike the top in mono black since it had too few ways to clear it.

[Toxboy]

Hi i'm currently going through sideboard again, I written some explanations on why I have cards. Suggestions ste welcome as always, Im mostly looking if there are any alternatives I should look for.

1 Barren Moor (replaces bojuka bog when irrelevant)

1 Coffin Purge (makes entomb grave yard hate 3 entomb =4 more graveyard cards for 1)
1 crop rotation (where you need faster combo or are afraid of wasteland)
1 Duress (1 more clean discard spell)
1 raven's crime (for decks that board rip but still weak to dicard / miracles, also combo)

2 Engineered Plague (just kills decks and strategies)
1 Krosan Grip (top + enchanment hate the fifth decay)
1 Maelstrom Pulse (see below)
1 Vraska, the Unseen (both kills jace, Maelstrom can also act as the fifth abrupt decay vs goyf)

1 Null Rod (storm, vial and top)
2 Sphere of Resistance (storm and food chain)
2 Trinisphere (omnishow, storm and burn)


Cards I had in sideboard are: massacre, sdt, Extirpate, Cabal Therapy, surgical extraction, karakas, chains of mephistopheles and many other removal / hate cards. Is there anything people noticed works especially well in a certain Meta (Gp snd bigger) since my local Meta is semi stagnant and I know what I need there.

[mykatdied]

Top with loam, cycle lands and fetches is pretty disgusting actually. For the green black variants, I think the first top is very good since you can't then get locked with multiples.

I dislike the top in mono black since it had too few ways to clear it.

I agree in bg it is better. What I am saying is that running it with dakmor salvage in mono black was actually fine. Salvage allows you to keep a card you need while only having to mill 2. Which in my experience wasn't bad at all. I actually had some decent games with it.

[Quitrex]

I think 1-2 Top in mono-B isn't terrible as long as you're on 5-6 fetches. I'm not sold on cursed scroll in the current meta, it doesn't clock fast enough to make headway against miracles, tarmogoyf/KotR decks, Mentor or lands. the tarmo/KotR isn't too troublesome because you are usually decent vs those decks anyways, but lands and miracles are already rocky. I just tried Nihilith tonight, and HOLY SMOKES, I was impressed. suspended one turn 2 vs lands, he cracked horizon canopy to dredge a loam... ya, I wasn't complaining about the clock. Pox (the card) is spectacular against miracles, but feels slightly underwhelming everywhere else. I also don't condone cutting the mana accelerants, whether one shot or permanent, largely because you want the ability to deploy chalice/hymn/liliana/Nether Void etc. early. A lot of hate cards are costed so that they can be played around them when they're deployed at the appropriate part of the curve, so cheat it harder.

[mykatdied]

I agree in bg it is better. What I am saying is that running it with dakmor salvage in mono black was actually fine. Salvage allows you to keep a card you need while only having to mill 2. Which in my experience wasn't bad at all. I actually had some decent games with it.

I will add to this that the reason milling only 2 at a time was good is because it allowed me to have a liliana on board and float more removal with top while milling lands if I didn't need them

[Hardcore]

Yesterday was my first tourney win since -96, i think(?). The deck felt ok previous week (3-1) and i just made small tweaks.

Out: the fourth Urborg, two skull cage, two Surgical Extraction

In: two swamp, a fourth liliana of the veil, three shrieking affliction


The deck


4 Bloodghast
3 tombstalker
4 nihilith

4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Pox
4 contagion
4 liliana of the veil
2 sensei's divining top

14 Swamp
4 bloodstained mire
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 wasteland


SB
2 extirpate
2 surgical extraction
4 chalice of the void
4 engineers plague
3 pithing needle


I don't have exact recall of the duels but i will do my best.

I got a bye for the first round. A surprise but i was cool with that.

The first real opponent was a guy who i knew play miracles.
First game i suspended a couple of nihilith which got sworded.
He then played Entreat the Angels for two tokens, while i had two shrieking afflictions in play. Angels are usually nasty to me but i realised i could race him because he was at 9 life (i was at eleven). I had two options: either get a blocker in play, Tombstalker, or play Pox. By casting pox i would cut his life to six, force him to discard the card he had in hand and keep Tomby a secret till next duel. I would win in any scenario unless he found a counter spell with his divining top. He did not.

Second duel i won by creature beat down. When it was over my opponent showed me two wear//tear in his hand. He had got wrong answers to my threats in both duels:-/
An impression i got from the games was that i managed to keep him short of mana.
Contagion was of little use so replaced it with surgicals i think.
Ripping fetchlands had been nice to do last week.
2-0

Next up was another player with a deck i knew: imperial painter.
Mono colored decks is its biggest weakness and burn is the worst.
Maybe pox is second:-), but i haven't asked.
Anyway killing painter is what i need to do in this game, and to stop grindstone. This is no problem. Contagion does not kill painter, so i replaced it with chalice.
2-0

Lastly I fought a bright guy who was new to magic. (if you started playing when Khans was released you are quite fresh:-). New or not it turned out he had a complete UBR delver deck.
He won first duel. I could play contagion but he got me with a flying 1/1 delver and two Elemental tokens:-D
The second duel he got a quick Gurmag angler in play, and a DRS buddy. I had a suspended nihilith. He wad at 12 and i at 15.
Since he was tapped out i played a fourth land and pox. He sacrificed the DRS and my nihilith attacked.
I think i won when i played a Tombstalker, next turn, which he had no answer to.

Last duel my opponent started with a delver. He was lucky again and could flip it with a force of will. Unfortunately he had kept a one land hand. I wasted it and procedeed to hymn his hand to pull his force. Once i did i played liliana to seal the win.

[Toxboy]

Lastly I fought a bright guy who was new to magic. (if you started playing when Khans was released you are quite fresh:-). New or not it turned out he had a complete UBR delver deck.
He won first duel. I could play contagion but he got me with a flying 1/1 delver and two Elemental tokens:-D
The second duel he got a quick Gurmag angler in play, and a DRS buddy. I had a suspended nihilith. He wad at 12 and i at 15.
Since he was tapped out i played a fourth land and pox. He sacrificed the DRS and my nihilith attacked.
I think i won when i played a Tombstalker, next turn, which he had no answer to.

Last duel my opponent started with a delver. He was lucky again and could flip it with a force of will. Unfortunately he had kept a one land hand. I wasted it and procedeed to hymn his hand to pull his force. Once i did i played liliana to seal the win.

Totaly off topic about the new player concept.

I like the concept of being a new player (I'm definetely new IMO), I started with RTR by playing edh and my first serious format was when I started playing standard in theres and after that since I'm Quite competitive people have started recognize me as a "Old" player at my local shop considering Standard.

And then you go to our legacy wednesday, when I by accidentaly tell them I started with Ravnica, the most common response is people Telling you about how that's when they got back from a big break around there, the following explanation that you mean RTR often brings in some comments about how new you are and also suprrise over that you play pox.

Though I have played long enough for serveral people being in fear of the pox deck, so many fair decks that just can't win against you. I also recently got used to players playing their warm up games in vintage and 93/94, full power ofc.

[Hardcore]

This is crap


Merciless Resolve
2B
Instant
As an additional cost to cast Merciless Resolve, sacrifice a land or creature.

Draw two cards.

You sought to anger me, Nahiri. Soon, you will see how well you have succeeded.

[PirateKing]

Drownyard Temple (https://i.imgur.com/StxuaFc.jpg)

I want this to be good, alongside Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth it could help keep our lands around longer into the late game. Problem I see is our curve tops out at 3, much to the point that we're typically struggling to make that jump from 2 to 3 lands, so this card would just amplify that break. In that regard, Dakmor Salvage might be a better choice. Thoughts?

[Hardcore]

Agree, DS is superiour. It actually does something useful.(and at no mana cost)

[zenitramleirdag]

Agree, DS is superiour. It actually does something useful.(and at no mana cost)



wouldn't crucible of world be better in that respect since it also synergizes with our factories and wastes?

[Hardcore]

Dakmor salvage or crucible? They do different things for your deck. You can run both.

[zenitramleirdag]

Dakmor salvage or crucible? They do different things for your deck. You can run both.

i was referring to Drownyard Temple..

[Hardcore]

Yes, but i disregard it because it cost mana, and it does not fetch land either. In short it does nothing.

[Hardcore]

This one looks interesting. Sort of a win more card, but it suits pox.



Asylum Visitor
1B
Creature - Vampire Wizard
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, if that player has no cards in hand, you draw a card and you lose 1 life.

Madness 1B (If you discard this card, discard it into exile. When you do, cast it for its madness cost or put it into your graveyard.)

"The ravings of the mad are laced with eldritch knowledge


3/1

[Mr. Safety]

Is it better than Undead Gladiator? I tend to think not. Gladiator allows you to choose when to spend mana on drawing a card and when you want a threat (and can be on reserve in your graveyard.) And gladiator hasn't been used in ages.

[Quitrex]

If we're looking for the ability to draw additional cards, I like a pair of Sea Gate Wreckage over basically any other option i've seen. Loam Pox doesn't need much beyond loam plus barren moor in my opinion.

[OmniStrata]

If we're looking for the ability to draw additional cards, I like a pair of Sea Gate Wreckage over basically any other option i've seen. Loam Pox doesn't need much beyond loam plus barren moor in my opinion.

I used to run Mikokoro, Center of the Sea a long time ago to get more cards. then I got cursed scrolls and learned drawing more is BAD if you want the C. Scroll to work. Now that I've decided to go full Chimeric route, I'll look into a 1 or 2 of Sea Gate since drawing more cards hurts less now. Though Mikokoro costs less mana, I'd rather not let them have a card.

Underworld Connections comes to mind as well but I hate bleeding when running a Big Pox or 2...

[Quitrex]

sounds almost exactly like my line of thought. also, the additional colorless sources open up the (admittedly not spectacular, but potentially worth mentioning) warping wail. mainly for when your meta is flooded with sneak and show.

[Hardcore]

Triskaidekaphobia
This one...:laugh:

[OmniStrata]

Triskaidekaphobia
This one...:laugh:

"The page you are looking for does not exist".

?

[PirateKing]

Triskaidekaphobia 3B
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep choose 1:
-Each player at 13 life loses the game. Then each player gains 1 life.
-Each player at 13 life loses the game. Then each player loses 1 life.

Shadows over Innistrad Rare

[Mr. Safety]

If we're looking for the ability to draw additional cards, I like a pair of Sea Gate Wreckage over basically any other option i've seen. Loam Pox doesn't need much beyond loam plus barren moor in my opinion.

Completely agree, just making a comparison. I actually play 3 moor, 2 sylvan library alongside three loams. I always seem to draw a few extra cards.

[Hardcore]

Using last week's deck i went 3-1 today. Lost to miracles first round, then defeated elves, loam pox and another miracles deck.
It is good to finally have a working configuration.

[Quitrex]

How's the Lands matchup? and Triskaidekaphobia is hilarious, but i don't think we get to use it.

[Hardcore]

Lands is grinding. It is particularly annoying to try surgical loam and have him cycle a land in response.
Keeping him from green mana was key.

I have lost badly to loam decks running dark depths. Maybe i should run leyline of the void rather than surgicals.

[Quitrex]

I've never liked Leyline, I usually prefer a surgical/extraction style effect, but if you're looking for a generic 'everything goes' I wouldn't be opposed to looking at planar void either. Extirpate/surgical don't get hit by Krosan Grip. My issue is that I never draw well against our local lands player for games 2-3 (WtH am I supposed to do when he sees more ports than I find basics and natural assembles Lage on turn 6 through that anyways?) so my data is skewed.

[Hardcore]

right now my sideboard is

3 pithing needle
4 chalice of the void
4 engineered plague
2 surgical extraction
2 extirpate

I have another two surgicals i could put in there.

I also need to hate Miracles and DnT more. Hymn helped a lot yesterday against the former. I may add Chain of Smog, and toxic deluge.

4 engineered plague
4 surgical extraction
2 extirpate
2 toxic deluge
3 chain of smog

perhaps this better. Or maybe not.

[Chatto]

I'm diving into the Pox-archetype again, this time Aggro Pox, and look what did they spoiled:

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/151/713/635942992965112179.jpg

Could this work?

3 recurring creature, but which one?
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Bloodghast

3 Dismember
4 Funeral Charm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox

2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Liliana of the Veil

24 lands


Now I understand, there is no way one would splash blue for just one card, but is it possible to make this one work?

And yes, i took Hardcore's deck as a reference :smile:

[OmniStrata]

I'm diving into the Pox-archetype again, this time Aggro Pox, and look what did they spoiled:

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/151/713/635942992965112179.jpg

Could this work?

3 recurring creature, but which one?
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Bloodghast

3 Dismember
4 Funeral Charm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox

2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Liliana of the Veil

24 lands


Now I understand, there is no way one would splash blue for just one card, but is it possible to make this one work?

And yes, i took Hardcore's deck as a reference :smile:

You'll want to look at Reassembling Skeleton, Ashen Ghoul, Ichorid, or Akuta, Born of Ash. The latter I think could work with the Top.

[grokh]

You'll want to look at Reassembling Skeleton, Ashen Ghoul, Ichorid, or Akuta, Born of Ash. The latter I think could work with the Top.

I think the most interesting options of all you mentionned would be Reassembling Skeleton cos it's the only one (in those you mentionned) which can come back at the end of your opponent's turn.

So the Prized amalgam would be untapped and ready to attack on your turn.

All others, can just come back at your upkeep so you'll get a 3/3 tapped at end of your turn.

[Chatto]

Yeah, RS is on my mind too. It would get Prized Almagam back on the field for sure. Of course, if I would throw in some Fetch, that would also give some sort of reassurance.

[Hardcore]

Gravecrawler. It may work with Geralf's messenger too.

I like it, but it may best for zombardment.

[Toxboy]

I'm diving into the Pox-archetype again, this time Aggro Pox, and look what did they spoiled:

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/151/713/635942992965112179.jpg

Could this work?

3 recurring creature, but which one?
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Bloodghast

3 Dismember
4 Funeral Charm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox

2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Liliana of the Veil

24 lands


Now I understand, there is no way one would splash blue for just one card, but is it possible to make this one work?

And yes, i took Hardcore's deck as a reference :smile:


well, there could be 1 card making you splash blue, it shouldn't hurt playing it and maybe Brainstorm while we do it, maybe 1 geralf's masterpiece as well?

[Quitrex]

Unless you're playing an aggressive card drawing engine and more basics than usually make their home in a 2-color pox mana base, you don't have the ability to consistently get cards into your hand and hit the four mana for geralf's masterpiece. Personally i don't dislike running a few Entomb, and I think that many people underestimate how relevant a light splash is in this archetype, as I've had a surprising amount of success with just splashing 3-4 abrupt decay as the only green cards. mana base usually looks something like 4 on guild fetch, 1-3 black fetch, 1 off black basic, 1-2 dual, 2-3 urborg, 4 wasteland, (potential for mainland, factory or w/e is your on-color tar pit or shambling vent style dude) and the rust up to 24 or 25 land is basic swamp, so for your deck, something like
4 wasteland
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 polluted delta
1 Island
1 Underground Sea
2 verdant catacomb
9 swamp

[Chatto]

@ Quitrex: even with such a manabase four mana seems a bit much with Pox and Smallpox in the deck. Seems to me it won't bring PA consistently 'back from the dead', which is the goal in the first place.

Regarding carddrawing: perhaps four Bob's? Then three SDT would be appropiate.

[Quitrex]

PA doesn't care if you can cast it first. you have a surprisingly consistent BB on turn 2 and BBB on turn 3 is more common than having and wanting to cast pox on turn 3. you also have the option of blue hate cards (chill anyone?). that same mana base has very little trouble with either abrupt decay or smallpox on turn 2, and the fetch lands will make EoT bloodghast easier. you can turn a couple more basics into fetches if you want, but i don't recommend more than two more. I can't condone bob in pox, as you have multiple things that force you to sac creatures when you want to keep drawing cards, and there are many matches where your life total is already under a lot of pressure (guess who doesn't help with that!) If you want a huge number of cards in hand, either find room for more colorless lands and use Sea Gate Wreckage or build a loam version. one of the things about traditional pox builds is that they want to capitalize on minimizing everybody's resources. If you're just interested in limiting the other guy's resources, i'd look at shardless variants first.

[mykatdied]

Why do you even need to splash for that card? Aren't discard effects, bloodghast or grave crawler good enough for recursion of this. You literally never have to cast this card. I still think it is worse than just running nether spirit or bloodghast in general. But if you really want to run this you honesty never have to legitimately cast it. Discarding it to liliana, smallpox, etc should be enough to get it into your yard, then recurring other creatures seems a good enough way to get it back.

If you really want to have a mana base for bug colors just look at my shardless pox build that I wrote about on hipsters of the coast in the brew corner column. That mana base has worked really well for me. You could likely change the lumbering falls for creeping tarpit

[Quitrex]

you splash for it because, especially if you're running 4 of it, there will be cases where you want to cast it. you don't plan on casting it, granted, but you want to be able to when it comes up that that is actually the play you need to make. if you're only running white for lingering souls and ray of revelation in a loam pox version, doesn't it make sense to just run one scrubland so that you can cast the front end when it comes up that you want to? same thing.

[coricho]

Hi guys, I would like your advise.

I've been playing the deck for 2 years now (my favorite MTG deck ever btw)
I keep being told that BUG Delver is a favorable matchup

... but I have yet to actualy win an actual matchup against the beast.
They always have "that last abrupt decay"
to break through a Liliana of the veil an ensanring bridge or a trinisphere

How do you approach the matchup?

Here is my build for reference, I'm having good results with it at my lgs so far. (if I don't have to face a BUG deck)
I even had an opponent raged-quit once (living the dream)!
Nothing fancy here, I like my build clean and right to the point.



1 Nether Spirit
1 Nether Void
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Trinisphere

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

3 Cursed Scroll
4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Dark Ritual
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
12 Swamp

SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal

[Chatto]

@ Quitrex: I see your reasoning, but with 12 discard-effects (16 if you would Hymn yourself) I think getting PA into the GY wouldn't be a big problem. In those rare cases you do want to cast it, well... I take my chances :smile:

@ coricho: sorry, can't help you. It's been too long since I played against Delver.decks with Pox.

[OmniStrata]

BUG Delver has 3 problems Pox doesn't like dealing with. Bob, DRS, and Jace. I'm not sure who told you the matchup was favorable but I humbly disagree. I've fought BUG Delver less than a dozen times and I don't ever have favorable matches against them. I too run a traditional Mono-B build so I know where you're coming from.

In the case of Abrupt Decay, the only 'flavor' of Mono-B Pox I've run that crushes such things utterly was Contamination Pox. Can't cast BG without the G. If you've managed to Needle DRS, they'd be unable to play several of their cards. The ultimate top-deck killer. The problem though is the setup required to make it work. You'd need 2-3 Crucible with a mix of 6 N. Spirit and Mishra's Factory.

On the one hand, when it works, it seals games practically perfect. On the other hand, if it doesn't work, you're ability to disrupt is hamstrung since you end up devoting a few cards to the 'combo'.

Nether Void I've yet to test fully but I think it'd work supposing you're not fighting Show & Tell dropping Omniscience, which in turn makes Contamination sad. Trinisphere & Nether Void backing it up is overkill and we all like overkill... :cool:

[Hardcore]

BUG can't handle big creatures.
Try Tombstalker or something.
IOW focus more on winning than setting up a lock.

[mykatdied]

BUG can't handle big creatures.
Try Tombstalker or something.
IOW focus more on winning than setting up a lock.

I can definitely back up stalker vs bug delver. They do sometimes run a copy or 2 of dismember but that isn't an issue since they have to find it after we check their hand or we snag it, then they have to have enough life or mana to cast it and that doesn't give them much time since stalker is a great clock

[coricho]

@ Omnistrata, Hardcore and Mykatdied
thank you for your adivise

My "prison" aproach in that perticular matchup was probably a mistake since they can break free of the prison with Abrupt decay, Maelstorm Pulse.
I will add a pair of Tombstalker to my sideboard and see what good he does.
I suppose he's not that bad against combo either, as a clock after a couple of turn disrupting the opponent.

[mykatdied]

@ Omnistrata, Hardcore and Mykatdied
thank you for your adivise

My "prison" aproach in that perticular matchup was probably a mistake since they can break free of the prison with Abrupt decay, Maelstorm Pulse.
I will add a pair of Tombstalker to my sideboard and see what good he does.
I suppose he's not that bad against combo either, as a clock after a couple of turn disrupting the opponent.

Tombstalker is a great threat to have, but I will say that the reason your don't see him more often is that opponents are already likely to bring in graveyard hate. In these scenarios he is likely a dead card in hand unless you can answer the hate..

[OmniStrata]

Tombstalker is a great threat to have, but I will say that the reason your don't see him more often is that opponents are already likely to bring in graveyard hate. In these scenarios he is likely a dead card in hand unless you can answer the hate..

GY hate is easier in Legacy now than ever before. This is one of the reasons why R. Duke's older builds that ignore the GY mostly are what I use these days. Having things like Crucible and large numbers of GY 'hopping' creatures will convince your opponent to bring in the hate asap.

The paranoid may bring it in just for Nether Spirit but usually not. I am tempted to try a 'stompy' approach with lock pieces but I'd have to order Chalices to really maximize my capabilities.

I'd need to find 12 beefy as hell threats which isn't hard in mono B and the other locks. Probably 4 Chalice & 4 Trinisphere but then I'd be losing out on my Inquisition, Innocent Blood, Dark Ritual, and it'd hamper Hymn and Sinkhole. My life without Sinkhole is no life at all... :frown:

[Quitrex]

I once thought as you do about my sinkholes. I have seen the light, and they aren't as necessary as they once felt, although it is still entertaining to consider when you expect a lot of delver decks, especially 18-19 land versions.

[OmniStrata]

Wasteland and Sinkhole are married damn it. :laugh: The only reason other decks run Wasteland without Sinkhole is cause they're not mono-B. Only reason I don't run Rancid Earth is because Big Pox is the same price and much, much better return on the mana cost.

I want to have the best mana denial deck in my meta and by all that is sexy... I WILL HAVE IT! MUAHAHAH! :cool:

Luckily my meta isn't full of non-mana decks. Things like Omniscience, mana-less dredge, certain combo etc... Mana dorks get needled or Plagued so I'm not too concerned about those. Artifacts I have to have Kegs and Bombs setup. That pretty much gives me only 1 turn to stall.

The day MtG can be played with no mana is the day I quit playing and weep all over my Pox cards, Sinkholes, and Wastelands.

Emotional ranting aside, I have included Tomby for my sideboard which now looks like this.

2 Pithing Needle
1 Powder Keg
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Tombstalker
4 Engineered Plague
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Extirpate
2 Relic of Progenitus

4-5-6 setup for GY, Creatures, and Control respectively. Pox doesn't like control decks that draws and cantrips so having 6 cards to crush them is a good call.
I once ran 3-5-7 but ran out of space and need a more diverse setup.

[mykatdied]

Wasteland and Sinkhole are married damn it. :laugh: The only reason other decks run Wasteland without Sinkhole is cause they're not mono-B. Only reason I don't run Rancid Earth is because Big Pox is the same price and much, much better return on the mana cost.

I want to have the best mana denial deck in my meta and by all that is sexy... I WILL HAVE IT! MUAHAHAH! :cool:

Luckily my meta isn't full of non-mana decks. Things like Omniscience, mana-less dredge, certain combo etc... Mana dorks get needled or Plagued so I'm not too concerned about those. Artifacts I have to have Kegs and Bombs setup. That pretty much gives me only 1 turn to stall.

The day MtG can be played with no mana is the day I quit playing and weep all over my Pox cards, Sinkholes, and Wastelands.

Emotional ranting aside, I have included Tomby for my sideboard which now looks like this.

2 Pithing Needle
1 Powder Keg
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Tombstalker
4 Engineered Plague
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Extirpate
2 Relic of Progenitus

4-5-6 setup for GY, Creatures, and Control respectively. Pox doesn't like control decks that draws and cantrips so having 6 cards to crush them is a good call.
I once ran 3-5-7 but ran out of space and need a more diverse setup.

Please don't needle a mana dork.

[Quitrex]

only one it works on is Deathrite. Cursed totem, however...

[Hardcore]

By control I figure you mean miracles. I am thinking of adding more discard in sideboard vs that match up. After all, my Hymns ruined my opponents day last time.

Another change for me is to try Plague Spitter.

[Quitrex]

miracles flinches whenever needle, pox, hymn, liliana, or chalice hits the stack. if i really feel spiteful, i put a couple copies of gloom in the board.

[OmniStrata]

Please don't needle a mana dork.

My typo [facepalm]. Needle on DRS works since I don't run targeted removal anymore (no cursed scrolls). DRS tends to exile my Nether Spirit as well.

My Miracles friend finds Cursed Scroll amusing if it's the only threat as 2 dmg isn't enough for Jace. That and brawling with weenies is what Gamera does best. :smile:

[Quitrex]

Random question: am I the only one that's flirted with the idea of Dessert as a 1-2 of in creature heavy metas? I acknowledge that it's probably not good, but it seems interesting.

[Hardcore]

caltrops?

[zenitramleirdag]

Random question: am I the only one that's flirted with the idea of Dessert as a 1-2 of in creature heavy metas? I acknowledge that it's probably not good, but it seems interesting.

i think its fine but i prefer cabal pit because it produces black mana, and it won't ping you if you swamp tap it with an urborg, tomb of yawgmoth in play..

[OmniStrata]

If you want to use lands for creature defense, I've found Cabal Pit and Maze of Ith to be the ultimate answers. The Pit when coupled with Crucible becomes a Cursed Scroll that can't hurt players/planeswalkers but ignores Leyline of Sanctity and indestructible.

Maze of Ith had a fantastic price drop and will stop any biggie from crushing your skull if your sac effects whiff. What's more, your big threats like Tomby and the like can gain pseudo vigilance which will frustrate some players.

Quicksand would also work as it doesn't need threshold, but it's colorless and can't deal with fliers at all. But it's kind of funny just as a flavor.

ATTACK!! Oh noes... *blub blub blub*

[TTX]

Hi guys, I would like your advise.

I've been playing the deck for 2 years now (my favorite MTG deck ever btw)
I keep being told that BUG Delver is a favorable matchup

... but I have yet to actualy win an actual matchup against the beast.
They always have "that last abrupt decay"
to break through a Liliana of the veil an ensanring bridge or a trinisphere

How do you approach the matchup?

Here is my build for reference, I'm having good results with it at my lgs so far. (if I don't have to face a BUG deck)
I even had an opponent raged-quit once (living the dream)!
Nothing fancy here, I like my build clean and right to the point.



1 Nether Spirit
1 Nether Void
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Trinisphere

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

3 Cursed Scroll
4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Dark Ritual
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
12 Swamp

SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal



I think playing Sensei's Top and swamp fetch lands would greatly improve Pox gameplay.

[OmniStrata]

I think playing Sensei's Top and swamp fetch lands would greatly improve Pox gameplay.

It actually depends on the build. If you're focused on LD with Wastelands and you're using manlands, 1/3 of your mana base is used for something besides mana. Put fetchlands hitting your health and Smallpox, Pox, and what have you, you could find yourself low on HP and mana.

I did run 1-2 tops in one of my ancient builds in the old thread but found 3 problems.

1. I run big pox, losing HP, even in 1 and 2 life counts for things like Thoughtseize and fetchlands kills me faster than I'd like.
2. Less real land in the deck makes staying in the game with mana much harder.
3. That 1 mana to spin the top is really precious and without Ponder and Brainstorm, SDT actually becomes less effective.

on a minor note, I'd run out of targets for fetchlands in my build as I only have 13 swamps. If I ran 7-8 fetches, I'd only have 6-7 swamps. If you only ran four fetchlands, I don't think you'd squeeze enough value out of it. Again, this is from my personal experience with 50 games or so with SDT in the deck.

Hard Draw, like Bottled Cloister, Jace (if you're an Ocean Poxer I gues), or Phyrexian Arena + life draining spells would be more beneficial I think vs. fixing the top deck. My RUG Thresh deck had a counterbalance flavor a long time ago and BS + Ponder really makes that top epic.

If there are other ways to shuffle your deck without manlands I'm all ears. Ghost Quartering yourself btw is not a good idea. :laugh:

[Toxboy]

It actually depends on the build. If you're focused on LD with Wastelands and you're using manlands, 1/3 of your mana base is used for something besides mana. Put fetchlands hitting your health and Smallpox, Pox, and what have you, you could find yourself low on HP and mana.

I did run 1-2 tops in one of my ancient builds in the old thread but found 3 problems.

1. I run big pox, losing HP, even in 1 and 2 life counts for things like Thoughtseize and fetchlands kills me faster than I'd like.
2. Less real land in the deck makes staying in the game with mana much harder.
3. That 1 mana to spin the top is really precious and without Ponder and Brainstorm, SDT actually becomes less effective.

on a minor note, I'd run out of targets for fetchlands in my build as I only have 13 swamps. If I ran 7-8 fetches, I'd only have 6-7 swamps. If you only ran four fetchlands, I don't think you'd squeeze enough value out of it. Again, this is from my personal experience with 50 games or so with SDT in the deck.

Hard Draw, like Bottled Cloister, Jace (if you're an Ocean Poxer I gues), or Phyrexian Arena + life draining spells would be more beneficial I think vs. fixing the top deck. My RUG Thresh deck had a counterbalance flavor a long time ago and BS + Ponder really makes that top epic.

If there are other ways to shuffle your deck without manlands I'm all ears. Ghost Quartering yourself btw is not a good idea. :laugh:

The obvious dredge to clear the top Cards, entomb if you want to run it, crop rotation in green.

I used to run2 tops in my GB pox bild and It was nice vs miracles and slower decks, but the second copy can also Lose you the game in some matches, I found running 1 has enough upside that you run it regardless of how inconsistent it is that you get it. I think I have about 70 games with 2 tops and a LOT more with just 1. However it wouldn't suprise me if you could go back and play more SDT in the more expected meta.

[OmniStrata]

Outside Elves agro, the DTB has no fast weenie rush down at least in the traditional sense. Dakmor Salvage with SDT can definitely work if you don't mind the durdle. :laugh: Whenever you Dredge, you're killing a draw phase so that your next 2 or so draws don't suck. For many, I can see that being a reasonable trade, especially if you're throwing away 2 swamps and have 5+ swamps on the field.

I think Necroplasm might also make for an excellent Dredger as he nukes tokens at end of his battlefield entry. Too bad the new rulings won't allow him to nuke transformed creatures... :frown:

[Quitrex]

in the expected meta you still need to account for D&T which, while not explicitly aggressive, is very soft to many of the same tools that are used against aggressive decks (not as vulnerable in the mana base, multitude of x/1 and x/2 creatures to mop up, usually an ability to spiral out of your ability to reign it back in very quickly if you don't catch them on the front end, capable of ~2 or 3 angles of attack) so i'm inclined to at least throw it as a point. I'd also like to add that, while it isn't exclusively intended as an aggressive deck, any delver variant with pyromancer or basically any monastery mentor deck has similar tendencies to get out of board control capacity and start killing you remarkably quickly if you don't get on top of them in a similarly succinct manner. NoSB and EP aren't terrible in any of these matches, but i like having something a little more generic about telling all the creatures to get off the board, so I usually include a couple damnation, deluge, or my personal favorite, BSZ in the board anymore.

[Hardcore]

BSZ should be extra nice with top.
Against decks with Daze the casting cost is an disadvantage, however.

[Hardcore]

I went 2-2 in yesterdays weekly tourney. I was basically beaten by fatigue since i have not slept well for a month.
I still have faith in my deck. Plague Spitter saw some action vs Monastery Mentor.
Hard to say if it is better than tomby in the long run. It was no problem running it in conjunction with Bloodghast. :laugh:

Lands decks are still my biggest problem. Bloodmoon looks to be the best answer but given the cost i'll try other solutions first.

[OmniStrata]

I went 2-2 in yesterdays weekly tourney. I was basically beaten by fatigue since i have not slept well for a month.
I still have faith in my deck. Plague Spitter saw some action vs Monastery Mentor.
Hard to say if it is better than tomby in the long run. It was no problem running it in conjunction with Bloodghast. :laugh:

Lands decks are still my biggest problem. Bloodmoon looks to be the best answer but given the cost i'll try other solutions first.

If you have 6+ recurring threats, I highly suggest Contamination which is the superior B version of Blood moon. Even basics get screwed.

[Hardcore]

Yeah, but it does not change the land abilities. It would still be possible to create Marit Lage token.

[TTX]

Diabolic Edict is pretty good against Marit Lage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[OmniStrata]

Yeah, but it does not change the land abilities. It would still be possible to create Marit Lage token.

Unless you're fighting lands combo all the time (maybe you are, I don't know your meta), being able to stop people who are not mono-B from playing magic AT ALL should be given more weight.

Are you fighting Marit Lage so often that you'd risk splashing red and gaining a less stable mana base? If so, forget what I stated. :frown:

On the other hand, you get your direct damage that Pox normally doesn't use which can kill planeswalkers. Other Poxers use The Rack or C. Scroll but R for 3 damage to Jace's dome is hot sauce.

[Quitrex]

In my experience, the surgical effects, the needles and dropping a chalice on two is usually enough that if you don't get unlucky, the matchup is very palatable. bring in 11, bring out 11, make their day miserable. if it's really important to you, you can turn the 4th (and maybe 3rd) E.Plague effect into the 4th needle and/or more surgical effects. the only cards I'd consider hitting with surgical are Dark Depths, K. Grip, Punishing Fire and (maybe) Loam. the rest you can beat through with enough persistence. You can also turn some number of creature sweepers into Ensnaring Bridge if the biggest problem is Mariat Lage.

[Captain Hammer]

I think this might be the correct route to take the deck. The reason I say that is that there is a ton of built in internal synergy in every card the deck plays...


Discard + Removal + Win Condition
4x Smallpox
4x Pox
4x Liliana of the Veil

Mana + Win Condition
0x Phyrexian Totem
4x Mishra's Factory

Pure Win Conditions
4x The Rack
4x Shrieking Affliction

Pure Discard
4x Raven's Crime
0x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach

Pure Removal
3x Innocent Blood
3x Noetic Scales

Mana
2x Dark Ritual
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
17x Swamp

By ensuring that so many cards in the deck can play multiple roles, the deck ends up having lots of versatility.

Total Number of Discard Spells - 20
Total Number of Removal Spells - 18
Total Number of Win Conditions - 12
Total Number of Mana Sources - 26

The Mana Curve is very smooth as well...
1cc - 17
2cc - 8
3cc - 8
4cc - 3

[Hardcore]

Price of progress.

[Hardcore]

For four bloodmoons, how many red mans sources do i need?

[Fatal]

@Noetic Scales

Yesss my old fun deck with a lot of discards and Noetic Scales as board control :-) I also used Bottomless Pit as hard lock.

[Hardcore]

I am thinking of finding room for Midnight Charm in my 61. Kill Hexmage, pox Marit Lage.
Or tap Marit Lage to get a free swing for a turn. Maybe for lethal.

I do not know what to replace, however.

4 Bloodghast
3 tombstalker
4 nihilith

4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Pox
4 contagion
4 liliana of the veil
2 sensei's divining top
3 shrieking affliction

14 Swamp
4 bloodstained mire
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 wasteland

[Quitrex]

to the four blood moon, you need 6-7 fetches (preferably 4 of which bloodstained), 1 badlands and preferably a mountain. the flip side is that if i'm adding red to pox i wanna play a small burning wish board and Devastating Dreams.

[Hardcore]

Tnx!

As for a wish board i think that is an idea. Anything costing double red would not be very viable however, imho.:-/

[Hardcore]

Backlash looks like fun stuff against a few decks, like 12 post, sneak and show, Dark Depths etc.

[Dr_D]

Backlash looks like fun stuff against a few decks, like 12 post, sneak and show, Dark Depths etc.

Against Sneak it's only okay against Griselbrand, and it's still not great. Against 12-post it doesn't hit anything that would 1 shot them, so I don't see how it's effective, especially since it seems like a good matchup already.

[Hardcore]

I expect to have hurt their life totals already before casting it.
Or after. To instant tap a blocker is not bad when it is a big monster.

[mykatdied]

I expect to have hurt their life totals already before casting it.
Or after. To instant tap a blocker is not bad when it is a big monster.

Unless it is emrakul which can't be targeted. You're likely better off with diabolic edict of anything

[OmniStrata]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2qhyC8PChU

Gleaned some ideas from this. I do notice times where I top deck Dark Ritual and are very sad... :frown: However, instead of having 11 threats, I'm keeping it between 8-10. Being a Sinkhole + Nether Void build, I can't really rely on Rack too much but it still functions simply due to Liliana and Hymn to Tourach x 4 in the same deck.

I'll also need to acquire Dread of Night and Contagion because, as was mentioned, cheap and free spells are too good apparently. :cool:

[Hardcore]

Notice the lack of top in his build. Weird.

[OmniStrata]

Notice the lack of top in his build. Weird.

It's not that weird. SDT without shuffle effects (Ponder/Fetchlands) starts to give you garbage after 3-5 turns. In a long grindy game, that's a horrifying situation to be in. I think he's got the Raven's Crime as a way to do something with top decked lands. In my case, I should probably consider either Syphon Life or Worm Harvest. Syphon looks more practical.

What I thought was odd was the lack of High-Impact cards such as E. Plague, Ensnaring Bridge, etc. On the other hand, his 11 threat suite will probably kill his opponent fast enough for the cards not to matter.

[Hardcore]

Well, what is his reason for not running top? Is it an oversight only?

[OmniStrata]

Well, what is his reason for not running top? Is it an oversight only?

Why does he need Sensei's Divining Top?

[Hardcore]

Why not? He can easily make room for it. For example, eight 1cc discard is a bit excessive, imo.
Two top and six 1cc discard is definitely better. He would have to run some fetches, but that isn't much of a problem.

His Modern deck does not include top and for that, and other reasons, i suspect he went from Pox Modern to pox Legacy.


Here is his Modern deck btw

4 Liliana of the Veil

14 Swamp
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Mutavault
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 Dismember
2 Funeral Charm
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
3 Wrench Mind

SB
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Nyxathid
1 Leyline of the Void
2 Waste Not
1 Bile Blight
2 Disfigure
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Damnation
2 Deathmark

[OmniStrata]

Why not? He can easily make room for it. For example, eight 1cc discard is a bit excessive, imo.
Two top and six 1cc discard is definitely better. He would have to run some fetches, but that isn't much of a problem.

His Modern deck does not include top and for that, and other reasons, i suspect he went from Pox Modern to pox Legacy.

8 Discard is not excessive when you've got 5 The Rack effects and even more in the sideboard. Should Liliana get the needle, which I'm sure she will, throwing spells to the dome is awesome. Turning every land into a discard spell is also great with Raven's Crime so the need for Top dwindles ever lower. He did not choose to run fetches in both his Modern and his Legacy Pox decks.

I think he believes it's better to have disruption rather than durdle. The retrace spells simply make top decking lands less of a pain and with 2 Racks being a mere 3 turn clock after getting slapped by a Mishra's, he probably believes, like myself, that SDT is actually stronger in other decks besides Pox.

Historically speaking, the majority of Pox decks that top 8'd didn't run SDT. I keep finding that 1 mana burned each turn to use it is just not worth it, even late game, but like everything, you're mileage may vary.

[Hardcore]

As i see it Thoughtseize and Inquisition have the job of pulling teeth turn one, to be followed by a stronger Hymn turn two. Also to pull counters to free way for playing more important spells. However it's been my experience that they do virtually nothing to enable the rack since they can't force the opponent to discard lands. In that situation i always want to draw a Hymn.

As for not being run in the top 8-decks i think the reason may be that those ran Nether Void in the main.

I have in the past excluded top but changed my mind, again. I don't keep records so i can't say if if helps me or not, BUT i did have them during my recent streak of good performance at the local tourney (including my second tourney win).

[zenitramleirdag]

I don't mind top in 8rack, i've also ran list that don't run it..
though i've always preferred dakmor salvage and/or darkblast instead of fetches to clear the cluttered top cards when i was running top..because those dredge cards could also possibly enable my nether spirit, bloodghasts, raven's crime, or even syphon life(from the side) by dredging them in the yard..i also kinda feel that running fetches reduces our virtual land count which could be an issue when you're poxing like crazy..or when you need more lands to feed to your raven's crime..

but i've also seen lists that run em', so i guess they're fine..matter of preference i guess..

[Hardcore]

Yeah, i have won games when dredging bloodghasts into the graveyard:-) I have been thinking of maybe including one DS in the deck. It helps when casting tombstalker too. Even better is Darkblast to put cards in the graveyard. I do no longer rate it highly for creature removal but with top it would be better. Then you can choose the better card to draw/dredge.

[OmniStrata]

There's enough GY hate in Legacy that I've decided to forego Graveyard use. Having Nether Spirit hop in and out is enough. In my days of Crucible, Worm Harvest, Life from the Loam etc, having GY use is strong, but once it gets denied, it's almost as if half your strength gets cut down.

I'd rather be 'durable' in all situations, so if someone brings in GY hate just for my Nether Spirit, it becomes a joke as it's technically a dead card after Nether Spirit is exiled and one less thing for me to worry about. Is the card quality gain worth it? I've found it wasn't. I'd rather just construct the deck in such a way that the top decks are always dangerous. Ultimately, it's less consistent than top, but it's also less weak to hate.

In the Sideboard discussion of that video, Tom Ross mentioned the lone Pithing Needle was for needling SDT and Aether Vial as Mono-B has no way to deal with it quickly otherwise. In that regard, that should explain why he is not running SDT as he'd just end up Needling himself. :tongue:

I think I'll bring back Syphon Life as threat #9 to make my top decked lands 4 life point swings.

[Hardcore]

So he does not want to needle his own top? Well, his loss. Btw, i noticed he has not run into any chalice of the void on one yet:-)
No artifact hate.

I know what you mean about hating the graveyard. With Rest in Peace in play it can be hard to cast a tombstalker. Still i usually succesfully play around that hate to win. Our decks can utilize the graveyard but we are not dependent of it, unlike dredge.

Can't say much about Syphon Life, i have not had much experience with.
I am too aggro for that i suppose.
Currently i am thinking of solving my Marit Lage problem by all out attack and a spell for finish. Like Kaervek's Spite or Price of progress:-)

Ed. I usually think "how big a threat, relatively speaking, is this card after a Pox?" For example nihilith swings for lethal in three turns, making it a 6/6. Siphon Life otoh would drain it all in six turns rather than ten. This makes a three life drain. On its own!

[OmniStrata]

So he does not want to needle his own top? Well, his loss. Btw, i noticed he has not run into any chalice of the void on one yet:-)
No artifact hate.

I know what you mean about hating the graveyard. With Rest in Peace in play it can be hard to cast a tombstalker. Still i usually succesfully play around that hate to win. Our decks can utilize the graveyard but we are not dependent of it, unlike dredge.

Can't say much about Syphon Life, i have not had much experience with.
I am too aggro for that i suppose.
Currently i am thinking of solving my Marit Lage problem by all out attack and a spell for finish. Like Kaervek's Spite or Price of progress:-)

Ed. I usually think "how big a threat, relatively speaking, is this card after a Pox?" For example nihilith swings for lethal in three turns, making it a 6/6. Siphon Life otoh would drain it all in six turns rather than ten. This makes a three life drain. On its own!

Ideally, I won't be attacking with only 1 threat. A single 2/2 Mishra's or Nether Spirit is slow, so a big Pox or 2 is necessary. Also, I find it better to strike with 2 threats. Rack and Nether Spirit is 3 turn clock after a Pox. If I were to run biggie threats, I'd run fewer. Like old Eva Green with 4 Goyf/Stalkers in the day. Gunning 9-11 threats is crucial to kill Jace if he ever shows up.

I don't think Tom Ross cares about Chalice @1 or what not and will simply accept the match up as is. As we see in the deck build, he's got a ton of 1 mana spells, much more than other Pox decks I've see published. Perhaps that attitude is the way to go. How many CotV decks are we supposed to truly worry about anyway? I honestly haven't seen that many lurking.

How does one play around Rest in Peace to cast a Tombstalker aside from either hard casting it [yowch] or delving before RiP hits the field? If that's the case, I feel that the sideboard supposed to shore up the problem by simply having more 2+ cmc cards to fill the deck vs CotV.

[Hardcore]

Ideally, I won't be attacking with only 1 threat. A single 2/2 Mishra's or Nether Spirit is slow, so a big Pox or 2 is necessary. Also, I find it better to strike with 2 threats. Rack and Nether Spirit is 3 turn clock after a Pox. If I were to run biggie threats, I'd run fewer. Like old Eva Green with 4 Goyf/Stalkers in the day. Gunning 9-11 threats is crucial to kill Jace if he ever shows up.

I don't think Tom Ross cares about Chalice @1 or what not and will simply accept the match up as is. As we see in the deck build, he's got a ton of 1 mana spells, much more than other Pox decks I've see published. Perhaps that attitude is the way to go. How many CotV decks are we supposed to truly worry about anyway? I honestly haven't seen that many lurking.

How does one play around Rest in Peace to cast a Tombstalker aside from either hard casting it [yowch] or delving before RiP hits the field? If that's the case, I feel that the sideboard supposed to shore up the problem by simply having more 2+ cmc cards to fill the deck vs CotV.

Yeah, Siphon would ideally be used i conjunction with other threats. That goes without saying! :-)
Btw, it ignores 3sphere/chalice too, if one is inclined to run that, or encounter it . (I love finding subtle advantages in cards!)

I am very interested in learning how Tom Ross will be doing with his deck, and how it evolves.
It is basically his Modern discard deck ported to Legacy. I have tried the pure discard route myself but with little success. If you found more video clips it would be nice if you posted them.

Playing around Rest in Peace: TS could be discard to Liliana to help set up the rack win, or it could be sideboarded out:-)
Third option is to make the opponent discard it to hymn to tourach!
Admittedly its susceptibility to GY hate is a reason i looked for replacements. Any ideas are welcome!

[PirateKing]

Guys, what are your thoughts on Phyrexian Totem as the large beater to close the game out faster?
I've used it in the past to medium effectiveness, getting punished hard once against RUG Delver (2x Lighting Bolts wiped my board, we both played Draw-Go until he found a Goose while I found not lands), but otherwise performing fine helping keep up :b::b: even through many Smallpox. If Eldrazi Stompy gets super popular over the summer, then it'd definitely stay at home, but for a while I was really considering dusting them off.
Am I just bad? Help.

[Hardcore]

Guys, what are your thoughts on Phyrexian Totem as the large beater to close the game out faster?
I've used it in the past to medium effectiveness, getting punished hard once against RUG Delver (2x Lighting Bolts wiped my board, we both played Draw-Go until he found a Goose while I found not lands), but otherwise performing fine helping keep up :b::b: even through many Smallpox. If Eldrazi Stompy gets super popular over the summer, then it'd definitely stay at home, but for a while I was really considering dusting them off.
Am I just bad? Help.
Well, you provide your own answer. There is a need to adapt to the opposition. If the opponent have access to red mana then you ideally want to empty his hand before activating totem, or have plenty of permanents in play to sacrifice just in case. Note that delver decks that run red usually only have four lightningbolts as direct damage spells. Delver burn otoh is more of a burn deck and you need be aware of the differences.

[PirateKing]

Well, you provide your own answer. There is a need to adapt to the opposition. If the opponent have access to red mana then you ideally want to empty his hand before activating totem, or have plenty of permanents in play to sacrifice just in case. Note that delver decks that run red usually only have four lightningbolts as direct damage spells. Delver burn otoh is more of a burn deck and you need be aware of the differences.

Well I mean obviously it'll have it's bad matchups, you'll play smart against Burn and whatever. I'm just saying, that was the only time where it came as a genuine surprise, he definitely picked his line of play and played it smartly. But again, as the only example, that should represent the unlikely-but-not-impossible level of risk that's undertaken. But with all the discussion of cards like Tombstalker and moving away from the reliance on the graveyard, reminded me that's the slot where two of these lived in my list. So maybe it's a viable alternative for that higher power creature, or again, maybe I'm just bad.

[Hardcore]

Totem requires mana to activate. May be better in control builds. IDK, since it was a long time since i did control:-)


Anyway, don't be annoying by calling yourself bad. You are playing pox, right?:cool:

[mykatdied]

Totem requires mana to activate. May be better in control builds. IDK, since it was a long time since i did control:-)


Anyway, don't be annoying by calling yourself bad. You are playing pox, right?:cool:

I second the second part of this. As a pox player you're not particularly a bad player, just a bad person and a griefer. At least that's what my buddies tell me.

[PirateKing]

Totem requires mana to activate. May be better in control builds. IDK, since it was a long time since i did control:-)


Anyway, don't be annoying by calling yourself bad. You are playing pox, right?:cool:

:laugh: no I mean my badness is expressed through that fanatical unwillingness to just run good cards. I'll have success with quality builds, but then I'll see Waste Not and slam dunk it into my build.

[Hardcore]

:laugh:

Btw, Tom Ross ran Waste Not in his Modern sideboard. Maybe, just maybe, it can work in Modern. If not then he is a bad player too. (After all he does not run top, right?:wink:)

[OmniStrata]

The Boss Ross is quite a monster with a notorious habit for hitting top 8s with decks that seem 'ok' for whatever reasons. I like his descriptions and such from that video I posted as well. He ran neither Engineered Plagues or Ensnaring Bridge in his sideboard so maybe he's onto something.

As for Phyrexian Totem, the ancient school of Pox thread had 3 threats that were considered staples of old Pox. Nether Spirit, Chimeric Idol (my personal fave of the old), and Phyrexian Totem.

The totem is fine vs. enemies with empty hands. You probably just got greedy and well, G1 vs. a deck with any direct damage is usually rough unless it's RUG Thresh. In fact, RUG Thresh vs. Pox should be easy mode if you've read Reid Duke's articles from SCG and personally, I've got a Pox deck and a budgetized version of RUG Delver and when me and my friend pilot them, Pox wins over 70% of the time.

Why is this? RUG has no true card advantage at all. No Jace, no CounterBalance, no Ancestral Visions, nothing... Pox eats low resource decks like that for breakfast lunch and dinner. Pox's toughest matches are usually based on manipulative control decks that go long and have enough land to weather Pox's winter of denial.

One of the reasons I prefer the mana denial flavor of Pox is because due to Liliana and Hymn being auto-includes, stopping enemies from playing lands is just a method that works for me. Denying land to control decks is also vital to winning at all.

[Hardcore]

Yeah, mana denial is nice. Still, i am reconsidering Wasteland, again. Sinkhole would be better actually. Not hindering mana development and hitting basics also.
I MAY replace them with mishra's factory. It's an option but is it a good enough one?

[OmniStrata]

Yeah, mana denial is nice. Still, i am reconsidering Wasteland, again. Sinkhole would be better actually. Not hindering mana development and hitting basics also.
I MAY replace them with mishra's factory. It's an option but is it a good enough one?

Wasteland and Sinkhole are usually always together in a mono-B mana-denial build simply because of the LD saturation and Wastes don't hit basics. There are games where you smallpox and sinkhole so many basic lands that your foe's fetchlands can only target wasteland fodder. It's a great feeling. Wasteland also causes people to hold their non-basics if they're foolish and allows you to develop your board in any case. 1 generic mana is still mana for use in some spells.

Do not make the mistake of 'saving' wastelands in your hand. Mana doesn't use the stack so playing them just because you can will force your opponent to change their approach. Of course, this is better with a turn 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. It can be a usable hand if you're opening grip is artifacts, Mishra's and wastelands. I find starting with 2 Swamps is the normal step and Wasting them turn 1-2 I've found to not work as well.

[Hardcore]

Yes, especially vs delver decks. Occasionally you can mana screw them but wasteland turn one and two are more like timewalks for them. Same with Rishadan port.
I bought my wastelands on advice from another magic player, but now they will sit in the ring binder for a while. Should i ever finish the control pox deck i will include them there.

[Hardcore]

Tentatively my deck development goes in this direction:


4 Bloodghast
4 nihilith
4 price of progress
2 tombstalker
4 shrieking affliction

4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Pox
3 liliana of the veil
2 sensei's divining top
3 contagion
1 rakdos charm

13 Swamp
1 mountain
4 bloodstained mire
2 blood crypt
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

[PirateKing]

Tentatively my deck development goes in this direction:

Is this just based on budget? Or are Shocks over Duals a conscious choice?

[OmniStrata]

I'd suggest removing the Shrieking Afflictions for Lightning Bolts. Kill Planeswalkers that way. 18 threats is so high that the enchantments seem to be filler or something cause you should most certainly kill your opponent before their empty hand ever matters. Bolts feed tombstalker so I'd suggest Lightning Bolt in a deck based on big damage.

I was thinking about Blightning as well but 3 cmc for a card that doesn't rock the universe probably isn't good enough. I'm truly shocked you didn't just include Nyxathid. He's probably the most terrifying creature a Pox player can cast when an opponent has an empty hand and was just Poxed in the face.

Let me know how that SDT goes for you. :cool:

[TTX]

Does Blightning have a place in your deck? Also, rock those SDT. They are too good not to play.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hardcore]

Is this just based on budget? Or are Shocks over Duals a conscious choice?
Budget.

[Hardcore]

I'd suggest removing the Shrieking Afflictions for Lightning Bolts. Kill Planeswalkers that way. 18 threats is so high that the enchantments seem to be filler or something cause you should most certainly kill your opponent before their empty hand ever matters. Bolts feed tombstalker so I'd suggest Lightning Bolt in a deck based on big damage.

I was thinking about Blightning as well but 3 cmc for a card that doesn't rock the universe probably isn't good enough. I'm truly shocked you didn't just include Nyxathid. He's probably the most terrifying creature a Pox player can cast when an opponent has an empty hand and was just Poxed in the face.

Let me know how that SDT goes for you. :cool:

I have no experience using Nyxathid.
On paper he looks to have a variable strength conditional on how well your game goes. And he has no evasion. I may test him later. Not being GY dependent is an advantage, however.

Lightning bolt is too weak. Besides, i run red (Price of Progress) mainly to get a better game vs lands decks.

It is hard to defeat decks with several lines of attack. Affliction occasionally makes a nasty lock with bloodghast. PoP added to that gives me a third win con. One that also is an instant.
.

[Hardcore]

Does Blightning have a place in your deck? Also, rock those SDT. They are too good not to play.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, i already run six to eight 3cc spells. Besides it does too little. Hymn is better at discard, and PoP do more damage, and at instant speed to booth.

[Aquamaniac]

I've been playing this list (or variation of) for about a year and a half now, but suddenly am not too sure about it. Any thought or recommendations?
Sorcery (25)

3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Innocent Blood
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Lingering Souls
1x Pox
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
3x Thoughtseize
2x Vindicate

Planeswalker (4)

4x Liliana of the Veil

Land (25)

1x Bojuka Bog
3x Marsh Flats
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Scrubland
5x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Instant (4)

4x Surgical Extraction or Dark Ritual (I swap between, I've been liking SE more recently.)

Artifact (2)

2x Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard (15)

1x Diabolic Edict
2x Disenchant
2x Engineered Plague
2x Massacre
2x Perish
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Spinning Darkness
2x Thorn of Amethyst

I've got a small room event next Saturday, and am willing to try a new brew. (I don't have access to E.Bridges.)

[mykatdied]

I've been playing this list (or variation of) for about a year and a half now, but suddenly am not too sure about it. Any thought or recommendations?
Sorcery (25)


I've got a small room event next Saturday, and am willing to try a new brew. (I don't have access to E.Bridges.)

These are the 2 bw variants that I tend to run. I usually do ok in my LGS with them. Haven't brought them to too many large events, but at an SCG open I did have a positive win rate when I brought the regular BW build. Been running these on and off for about 3 years

Deck: pox b/w (61)

Lands 24
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
3 Marsh Flats
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

Creatures 5
2 Nether Spirit
3 Tombstalker

Spells 31
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Mox Diamond
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Vindicate

Sideboard 15
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Engineered Plague
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Nether Void
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Trinisphere
1 Vindicate

Deck: pox blade (60)

Lands 24
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Creatures 2
2 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells 34
2 Bitterblossom
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls
1 Nether Void
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Vindicate

Sideboard 15
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Engineered Plague
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Extirpate
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution

[jredelstein]

I've been playing this list (or variation of) for about a year and a half now, but suddenly am not too sure about it. Any thought or recommendations?
Sorcery (25)

3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Innocent Blood
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Lingering Souls
1x Pox
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
3x Thoughtseize
2x Vindicate

Planeswalker (4)

4x Liliana of the Veil

Land (25)

1x Bojuka Bog
3x Marsh Flats
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Scrubland
5x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Instant (4)

4x Surgical Extraction or Dark Ritual (I swap between, I've been liking SE more recently.)

Artifact (2)

2x Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard (15)

1x Diabolic Edict
2x Disenchant
2x Engineered Plague
2x Massacre
2x Perish
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Spinning Darkness
2x Thorn of Amethyst

I've got a small room event next Saturday, and am willing to try a new brew. (I don't have access to E.Bridges.)

Just pointing out some things from mykatdied's lists, flagstones is an easy add which should help you out. The Legends enchantments Chains and Moat are also very crucial sideboard options but are not easy for everyone to have access to. I might also suggest a one-of Cabal Pit just to get more utility out of those Crucibles.

I'd also take a look at you sideboard and see if you can be more efficient with card choices, I would think you could turn the 2 E plague, 2 massacre, and 2 perish, and replace them with 1 e plague, 1 night of souls betrayal, and 2 toxic deluge. That would free up 2 slots for the legends enchantments if you can get them or whatever else you need for a given matchup you want help with.

I don't mind surgical or dark ritual, they are both good but each changes your gameplan. Surgical means your primary gameplan is mana denial with early wasteland on a dual land and surgical you can just win some matches (RUG delver only plays Trops and Volcs so if you surgical both they have no mana), dark ritual is more about velocity, you are attacking their hand more with turn 1 Lily or turn 1 Inquisition-hymn. Just an idea to keep in mind.

[OmniStrata]

Lightning bolt is too weak. Besides, i run red (Price of Progress) mainly to get a better game vs lands decks.

It is hard to defeat decks with several lines of attack. Affliction occasionally makes a nasty lock with bloodghast.

Bolt is too... [seizures and bursts into tears... :eek:] How can the best damage to mana ratio spell in the game be too weak? If you're running Big Poxes, these things will do far more than PoP. PoP I suppose is your auto-include if your meta is full of non-basics but as 4 of I'd guess that through statistics, PoP is useless early game and fatal as a top deck to your opponent's health.

Actually, PoP has a problem. If you've got 7 Pox FX (oh wait, you do ^_^), that land sacrificing aspect of the Poxes are not synergistic with your win con. I love having more than 4 Smallpox FX through big Pox but using Price of Progress, you either wait till they reach critical mass and NOT Pox them, or Pox them early while discarding Price of Progress. Hence why I advocate Bolt. Ultimately, a mix of perhaps 3 Lightning Bolts and 1 Price of Progress could very well be the best of everything.

How does Shrieking Affliction make a lock with Bloodghast? You lost me at 'several lines of attack'. :eyebrow:

[Hardcore]

Bolt is too... [seizures and bursts into tears... :eek:] How can the best damage to mana ratio spell in the game be too weak? If you're running Big Poxes, these things will do far more than PoP. PoP I suppose is your auto-include if your meta is full of non-basics but as 4 of I'd guess that through statistics, PoP is useless early game and fatal as a top deck to your opponent's health.

Actually, PoP has a problem. If you've got 7 Pox FX (oh wait, you do ^_^), that land sacrificing aspect of the Poxes are not synergistic with your win con. I love having more than 4 Smallpox FX through big Pox but using Price of Progress, you either wait till they reach critical mass and NOT Pox them, or Pox them early while discarding Price of Progress. Hence why I advocate Bolt. Ultimately, a mix of perhaps 3 Lightning Bolts and 1 Price of Progress could very well be the best of everything.

How does Shrieking Affliction make a lock with Bloodghast? You lost me at 'several lines of attack'. :eyebrow:

Yes, indeed it is not synergistic at first glance. However, after a pox or smallpox resolves new lands will be played for sure.
Total damage is in theory greater when Pox → PoP than the order PoP
→ Pox.

As for bolt it has the disadvantage of being useful for killing creatures.
While that may be handy occasionally it would only weaken my game plan if i used it that way.
Basically i want to kill my opponent before he get the Marit Lage combo active.

Bloodghast + affliction/the rack is simply hard to defend against. If opponent try to handle one he will die to the other.

[OmniStrata]

Sounds to me like Marit Lage and Lands is your most common opponent. I know that feeling, I have the same paranoia with Miracles to a degree.

I've never heard of being able to kill creatures as being a disadvantage.

Is you're maindeck designed to fight Lands as a strong game 1 or is your sideboard designed to cover it? I always fashion the main deck to deal with 'every scenario' possible to the best of my ability and then use the sideboard for those nightmare matchups where losing is too lopsided.

On a very high note, I may be getting Tabernacle of Pendrall Vale for my deck and coupled with Wasteland/Sinkhole, and the terror inducing Nether Void, my "Fortress of Solitude" Pox is just about complete... :b:

[Hardcore]

Nice! I have faith in Nether Void since i noticed the decks placing best in tourneys run two of those i main deck. Have fun :-D

Speaking of main deck my thinking is to construct it to be viable vs most decks: Contagion and big monsters vs Delver. Hymn, Pox and Liliana vs Miracle, and many others.
Bloodghasts are also a problem for many decks. However the defense, or threats, for some decks is too much niche to have a place in main deck. Or perhaps they turn the deck away too much from its aggressive plan. A typical example is Engineered Plague vs Goblins.
Of course, i could make a compromise and run one NoSB, but no. We have only one Gobbo player after all.

[Quitrex]

Nether void is tremendously powerful, but I don't think I condone 2 main unless you expect a VERY large amount of combo. I get to play the classic in the morning, and am registering

2 bayou
1 cabal pit
1 forest
1 marsh flats
4 Mishra's factory
4 swamp
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 verdant catacomb
4 wasteland

1 nether spirit

4 abrupt decay
1 chains of Mephistopheles
2 crucible of worlds
2 cursed scroll
3 dark ritual
1 grim tutor
4 hymn to tourach
4 liliana of the veil
2 mox diamond
1 murderous cut
1 nether void
1 night of souls betrayal
1 pox
4 smallpox
4 thoughtseize

Sb
2 black sun's zenith
3 chalice of the void
2 ensnaring bridge
3 pithing needle
4 surgical extraction

[mykatdied]

Nether void is tremendously powerful, but I don't think I condone 2 main unless you expect a VERY large amount of combo. I get to play the classic in the morning, and am registering

2 bayou
1 cabal pit
1 forest
1 marsh flats
4 Mishra's factory
4 swamp
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 verdant catacomb
4 wasteland

1 nether spirit

4 abrupt decay
1 chains of Mephistopheles
2 crucible of worlds
2 cursed scroll
3 dark ritual
1 grim tutor
4 hymn to tourach
4 liliana of the veil
2 mox diamond
1 murderous cut
1 nether void
1 night of souls betrayal
1 pox
4 smallpox
4 thoughtseize

Sb
2 black sun's zenith
3 chalice of the void
2 ensnaring bridge
3 pithing needle
4 surgical extraction

How has running the 3 ritual and 2 diamond been for you? I never really consider running both but it seems interesting. Greedy from my point of view to have 5 cards which are not great top decks later in the game, but awesome early game. Turn 1 Nether Void vs combo seems like it would be good.

[Hardcore]

I notice yesterday that Eldrazi lists run no basics and should be another good target for PoP. I hope i recieve those i ordered before the tourney tomorrow.

[OmniStrata]

I notice yesterday that Eldrazi lists run no basics and should be another good target for PoP. I hope i recieve those i ordered before the tourney tomorrow.

I love the new Eldrazi decks. Wasteland Sinkhole spamming has never been so much fun! :cool: The only problem I guess is if they draw the tits and you draw no disruption for the opening grip, the match up is that good in our favor. Even more so for the LD focused like myself.

[Quitrex]

The 3-2 split is surprisingly effective, but I think ima jump over to a 4 diamond list for a bit. I lost two matches to drawing terribly (turn 2 nether void an aluren deck only to have them hit 6 of their 20 before I find a third land so I never actually get to cast another spell? Ok) one to a misplay (lands) and one to mis-boarding.

[mykatdied]

The 3-2 split is surprisingly effective, but I think ima jump over to a 4 diamond list for a bit. I lost two matches to drawing terribly (turn 2 nether void an aluren deck only to have them hit 6 of their 20 before I find a third land so I never actually get to cast another spell? Ok) one to a misplay (lands) and one to mis-boarding.

It is interesting. I know edelman was running 3 ritual for a while and no diamond. In my splash builds I tend to run 3 diamonds for the ramp and color fixing. In my mono black builds I stick with ritual all day.

[OmniStrata]

Poxtress of Solitude - ver. Alpha

Lands (25)
12 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale

Creatures (1)
1 Nether Spirit

Spells (30)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
1 Pox
2 Funeral Charm
1 Dark Ritual
1 Contagion
1 The Rack
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Underworld Dreams
1 Syphon Life
1 Nether Void

Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Powder Keg
2 Spinning Darkness
1 Massacre
1 Dread of Night
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Shrieking Affliction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Leyline of the Void

Inspired originally by Reid Duke's original 3rd place tournament Pox deck and then updated/modified with ideas from Tom "The Boss" Ross's video I posted earlier, this is an amalgamation of well, crazy weird shit. My combat rival and test subject, Miracles UW says this is not only my weirdest flavor of Pox that he's ever faced, but probably one of the scarier ones. I don't have The Tabernacle yet but I will soon... :cool:

No time to type up stuff yet as I'm in the middle of some work but I'll explain the wackiness later when I get the time to. For now, this Alpha version Fortress of Solitude control deck is a placeholder.

[soccerfanxl]

new pox player here (played 8rack for a while). Starting to get into the legacy scene and there is a large local tournament next week (80 pre reg players).

Current list (flakmonkey sent me this list)

Sorcery (20)
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Raven's Crime
4x Smallpox
3x Thoughtseize

Instant (1)
1x Contagion
Planeswalker (4)
4x Liliana of the Veil

Land (24)
4x Mishra's Factory
12x Swamp
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland

Artifact (5)
1x Cursed Scroll
4x The Rack

Enchantment (2)
2x Shrieking Affliction

Creature (4)
4x Bloodghast

Sideboard (15)
2x Contagion
2x Darkblast
2x Duress
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Raven's Crime
3x Spinning Darkness

Ive read a few pages of the forums (not the full 13x) im looking for some sideboard help and some match up tips, ive only played 15ish competitive legacy matches and that was with a chalice deck. What decks can i expect to struggle against (besides lands), which are fair and which are great? I know ive picked a rough deck to pick up and play with out knowing the format but, have to start some where right?

[Hardcore]

Loam decks for sure. I would remove duress and raven's crime and increase the graveyard hate.

Contagion and Darkblast is best replaced by engineered plague, or ensnaring bridge.

[Hardcore]

I have had problems playing Tombstalker lately. I rarely have enough cards in the graveyard and he ends up being discarded to contagion or pox. I am thinking of maybe rat pack and mishra's as replacement. But it is not ideal as i tend to nuke my own lands a lot...

[jredelstein]

I have had problems playing Tombstalker lately. I rarely have enough cards in the graveyard and he ends up being discarded to contagion or pox. I am thinking of maybe rat pack and mishra's as replacement. But it is not ideal as i tend to nuke my own lands a lot...

If you are playing Pack Rat, Mutavault may be better than Mishra's Factory.

[Hardcore]

If you are playing Pack Rat, Mutavault may be better than Mishra's Factory.
Tnx, i forgot about that.

[OmniStrata]

Tomby is usually played as a 2-of because you disrupt like mad, then you drop him mid-late game when everyone's top decking and resources are slim. If you're running 4, Dark Rituals help a lot but that's probably the issue you're running into since Tomby can't logically be played early game and really shouldn't be.

There once was a goofy play off a turn 1 where one goes fetchland, swamp, double dark ritual, Tombstalker lolz but that's just wack. :eek:

Mutavault can be combined with Pack Rat and Mishra's for 12 threats that synergize through the Mutavault. Problem is weakness to Wasteland, Price of Progress, and other things.

Another option is running Tomby in the sideboard. Or get Assembly-Worker as a laughably bad backup for Mishra's Factory. :tongue:

[Quitrex]

Y'all are talking very threat-heavy. how do you have enough disruption to not die?

[jredelstein]

Y'all are talking very threat-heavy. how do you have enough disruption to not die?

Hardcore has a very threat heavy build. I'd say it uses smallpox as more of a tempo play than a more traditional control build. You only need to disrupt you opponent long enough to not die, so if you are going to kill them slow with something like curse scroll or Mishra's factory then you need a lot of disruption to last that long, if you are killing them quick with bloodghast, Mishra factory, and tombstalker all at the same time then you don't need as much disruption. There are lists posted earlier from Hardcore that you can check out. Im sure he'd be happy to elaborate for you (and correct me if my statements are wrong).

[Hardcore]

Well, given that i actually play four pox i think i have plenty of disruption.

[OmniStrata]

Threat update. 10 threats

4 Mishra's Factory, 1 Nether Spirit. The Heavy Infantry, NS is the bodyguard for Liliana who can never go down lolz

2 Cursed Scroll, 2 Underworld Dreams, 1 Syphon Life. The Artillery. 2 of them snipe annoyances or with 6 lands out, nuke a Jace along with Underworld Dreams punishing him for free Brainstorms. Syphon Life 'fixes' top decking useless lands and turns them into 4 life point swings. The Artillery are also somewhat resistant to Counterbalance [cept for the Cursed Scrolls]

I still feel 8-10 seem to be just right for my land destruction control play style. Though traditional land killer should normally be more Aggro Control along the vein of Threshold, where you play a cheap threat, or suspend it, then nuke every land they could play. Now that combo is no longer that big on the meta being held in check by the huge slew of decks with counter spells, perhaps pure LD w/rush down would work, and I have just the cheap threats that could work with it.

[jredelstein]

So I have been trying to come up with a list that uses 4 Chains of Mephistopheles as a central theme. I also like the interaction with Anvil of Bogardan. I tried a more traditional mono black pox list with Chains, Anvil, dark ritual, mox diamond, and Squee, Goblin Nabob to get the chain lock early. The problem I had was I would die to the 1 or 2 drops that made it to the board and since no one draws cards I'd die before finding a Squee.

I am now looking at a GB list that is more similar to Lands than Pox since the interaction between dredge of Life from the Loam and Chains is awesome(since dredge is a replacement effect Chains doesn't trigger!) I also am a fan of being able to run Urborg in lands rather than punishing fire. I've tried keeping Smallpox in but there is just not enough room and it is the first cut if I want to keep the Lands/Chains themes. I think my sideboard plan would be to side in more creature hate and take out the Chains package.

Here is what I got:
4 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Anvil of Bogardan
2 Bloodghast
2 Raven's Crime
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
3 Life from the Loam
3 Crop Rotation
2 Entomb

4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Cabal Pit

Possible Sideboard:
4 Smallpox
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
1 Crop Rotation
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Innocent Blood

[OmniStrata]

That deck is probably in the wrong forum at this point. :tongue:

[mykatdied]

So I have been trying to come up with a list that uses 4 Chains of Mephistopheles as a central theme. I also like the interaction with Anvil of Bogardan. I tried a more traditional mono black pox list with Chains, Anvil, dark ritual, mox diamond, and Squee, Goblin Nabob to get the chain lock early. The problem I had was I would die to the 1 or 2 drops that made it to the board and since no one draws cards I'd die before finding a Squee.

I am now looking at a GB list that is more similar to Lands than Pox since the interaction between dredge of Life from the Loam and Chains is awesome(since dredge is a replacement effect Chains doesn't trigger!) I also am a fan of being able to run Urborg in lands rather than punishing fire. I've tried keeping Smallpox in but there is just not enough room and it is the first cut if I want to keep the Lands/Chains themes. I think my sideboard plan would be to side in more creature hate and take out the Chains package.

Here is what I got:
4 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Anvil of Bogardan
2 Bloodghast
2 Raven's Crime
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
3 Life from the Loam
3 Crop Rotation
2 Entomb

4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Cabal Pit

Possible Sideboard:
4 Smallpox
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
1 Crop Rotation
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Innocent Blood

This reminds me of that Combo Loam deck that did well at an SCG several years ago. I need just 1 more Chains and the x2 Word of Command for the board to test it. You don't want smallpox mainboard though? I would likely drop some number of mox diamond, and entomb/crop rotation. Just adds a lot of do nothing air to the deck other than helping to find combo pieces. If your opponent plays pithing needle on stage then those cards are almost dead cards since you wont need to tutor up lands as much. I think for this style deck you are better off running Decay or smallpox in the main board and just play for the long and grindy game. Your opponent won't have brainstorm and ponder to help filter their draws. The list I saw also ran dark confidant for additional card advantage without drawing cards. I think that could be an option as well to get ahead.

This is the link to the deck that I was referring to. It is Jund though
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=54216

[jredelstein]

This reminds me of that Combo Loam deck that did well at an SCG several years ago. I need just 1 more Chains and the x2 Word of Command for the board to test it. You don't want smallpox mainboard though? I would likely drop some number of mox diamond, and entomb/crop rotation. Just adds a lot of do nothing air to the deck other than helping to find combo pieces. If your opponent plays pithing needle on stage then those cards are almost dead cards since you wont need to tutor up lands as much. I think for this style deck you are better off running Decay or smallpox in the main board and just play for the long and grindy game. Your opponent won't have brainstorm and ponder to help filter their draws. The list I saw also ran dark confidant for additional card advantage without drawing cards. I think that could be an option as well to get ahead.

This is the link to the deck that I was referring to. It is Jund though
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=54216

I think I have most of that maybe I'll try it. Not sure I like burning wish, seems slow and not sure the targets are large enough impact.

I love smallpox, obviously, I just don't think there is enough room and I'd rather have the combo win of dark depths or the combo lock of chains/anvil game 1 then side into a more grindy control deck for game 2 when they bring in their answers for the combo. As it is I am not sure I'm playing enough lands, my first list had 4 smallpox, and they got cut for more lands.

[mykatdied]

I think I have most of that maybe I'll try it. Not sure I like burning wish, seems slow and not sure the targets are large enough impact.

I love smallpox, obviously, I just don't think there is enough room and I'd rather have the combo win of dark depths or the combo lock of chains/anvil game 1 then side into a more grindy control deck for game 2 when they bring in their answers for the combo. As it is I am not sure I'm playing enough lands, my first list had 4 smallpox, and they got cut for more lands.

You are running 33, plus mox diamond, exploration and loam. It is likely enough/too many lands. You have 8 that don't tap for mana and you have bog which is best crop rotated for when needed. I honestly think it would be better to cut back on the stage/depths combo and maze of ith since you are running 3 crop rotate and 2 entomb. You have enough tutors to make it easier to find these things. You could easily slot a couple decay and smallpox into those slots. I like the burning wish package since it means you can answer more pre-board and you also have access to winds of change to put your opponent in that place where they have 0 cards in hand and the chains/anvil combo literally makes it impossible for most decks to ever actually have cards in hand.

[Hardcore]

Deepwood Legate have two abilities i like. Against some opponents he is free to cast and versus others he is hard counter.
Right, cc is four which make it harder to remove him too.

[zenitramleirdag]

Deepwood Legate have two abilities i like. Against some opponents he is free to cast and versus others he is hard counter.
Right, cc is four which make it harder to remove him too.

ha ha ha, cool!..i'm surprised i haven't seen this one..can't wait to drop this on my first turn against a green deck. Don't care if I win I just want to pull it off. :laugh:

personally though i'd rather run nantuko shade or even the classic order of the ebon hand or knights of stromgald(coz o' the protection from white ability)..

the art looks more like a zombie than a shade though..

[OmniStrata]

Deepwood Legate have two abilities i like. Against some opponents he is free to cast and versus others he is hard counter.
Right, cc is four which make it harder to remove him too.

You lost me at "harder to remove him". :really: Might make a hilarious sideboard against anything with forests, but I figure Nantuko Shade would be the automatic go to card for pumpable creatures. He eats Goyfs for a living.

[zenitramleirdag]

You lost me at "harder to remove him". :really:

i think he meant its "unabruptdecayeable" or counterbalance doesn't hit it easily..
i like the card but i think its outclassed by many other things that we don't even use..

[Hardcore]

It is safe from Abrupt Decay because of cc of four. It is also hard to Daze since you cast it for free vs UGR. Basically it is only vulnerable to StP and Terminus. A well timed lightning bolt can mess things up, but then I like to play with Chalice of the Void in the main deck. Chalice and Legate on turn two seems nice:-D

[Hardcore]

i think he meant its "unabruptdecayeable" or counterbalance doesn't hit it easily..
i like the card but i think its outclassed by many other things that we don't even use..
Yeah, i looked at Nantuko Shade, but think it has a vulnerability window if cast early, because of casting cost.

[OmniStrata]

I see. Sometimes I forget about people and their metas. A meta with plenty o' Green will definitely give that Shady Legate something to work with. I run Innocent Bloods, Smallpox, and 2 POX so normal creatures just can't stick around for me in my games. At times I forget our 'ultimate goal' is card advantage and we shouldn't be losing spells and resources as much as our opponent is.

This is the reason why I dropped some Dark Rituals. Top decking them would have been awesome if there was a Shade version of Nether Spirit but since there isn't, I'm running them less. What's more, I don't fight decks that face blast you in 2 turns. Meta got slower for some reason (MIRACLES cough*).

Only other good Card Advantage spell I've seen is Bottled Cloister. Very tempted to just go "Quad Laser" and run 4 Pox and 4 of the vast majority of cards. Still haven't found a trader for a Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale. Damn it'd be sweet backed by Urborg and Wastelands.

[Hardcore]

Speaking about card advantage....
Toil // Trouble
I am not much for the crappy black "draw two"'s but i like the Trouble effect (as a novice i tried playing Storm Seeker). But, nah. Not good enough :-/

[zenitramleirdag]

Speaking about card advantage....
Toil // Trouble
I am not much for the crappy black "draw two"'s but i like the Trouble effect (as a novice i tried playing Storm Seeker). But, nah. Not good enough :-/

wow, storm seeker..haven't seen that in ages, also sudden impact..

its not that its not good enough, the problem is that the "trouble half" is a non-bo with our deck, ahem, liliana, hymn, etc..

this could be nice in a black/red land destruction deck though..just not sure how competitive such a deck would be against the top tiers..

[OmniStrata]

Rakdos Land Destruction Pox has access to Dreadbore which would probably be the most powerful removal in da universe if it was instant speed [lolz]. You also get Terminate and Rain of Salt if you're really gunning for LD. Only reason I don't build it is the dual lands. Mono-B has Smother and Hero's Fall but they're inferior to the ones I've mentioned.

You also get access to stupid strong cards like Goblin Deathraiders

[Hardcore]

Is Death Raiders that good?

[jredelstein]

Is Death Raiders that good?

I'd rather play Spike Jester over Goblin Deathraider. But would never play either in a pox deck.

[Hardcore]

Well, Spike Jester would be nice against Miracles.

[OmniStrata]

The B/R Land Killer deck I had [not pox] used the Death Raiders as cannon fodder for a Mortivore [lolz] and allowed for strong hits by using removal on blockers and letting the trample through.

Granted, I too wouldn't use it in Pox but as example, B/R has some of the best power to toughness for the CMC around. A super aggressive Pox blended with Red lightning could work, but for now, the only splashes that placed are B/G and B/W. I'd laugh if a B/U Pox worked some magic but that's probably the least likely to work.

[Toxboy]

The B/R Land Killer deck I had [not pox] used the Death Raiders as cannon fodder for a Mortivore [lolz] and allowed for strong hits by using removal on blockers and letting the trample through.

Granted, I too wouldn't use it in Pox but as example, B/R has some of the best power to toughness for the CMC around. A super aggressive Pox blended with Red lightning could work, but for now, the only splashes that placed are B/G and B/W. I'd laugh if a B/U Pox worked some magic but that's probably the least likely to work.


There's two blue version one: bug basically, shardless pox with abrupt decay, brainstorm and ofc shardless agent as only splash. The other is straight B/U and splashes for snapcaster (3) and jace, vryn's prodigy (4) only for a extra 7 effects of your best current ld spell. I've seen these versions and they are basically much weaker to resolved spells since they play less actual effects of sacrifice effects.

I've seen it 3-1 in our local league but the pox deck with greatest result here is probablly B/G pox.

[mykatdied]

I like the idea of running UB where you get ancestral, stifle, maybe some force post board if you're against fast combo. Jace, the Mind Sculptor seems like fun in that, but jace, vryns prodigy is likely better for what he does when flipped. Overall I like the idea of Ashiok over Jace if you really want to go UB.

[Hardcore]

Dark Depths. Enough said.

[Toxboy]

I like the idea of running UB where you get ancestral, stifle, maybe some force post board if you're against fast combo. Jace, the Mind Sculptor seems like fun in that, but jace, vryns prodigy is likely better for what he does when flipped. Overall I like the idea of Ashiok over Jace if you really want to go UB.

They also ran stifle and flusterstorm for sideboard.

The obvious upside with jace, vryn's prodigy is that he doesn't die when flipped to smallpox

[Hardcore]

I found this interesting little card Runeflare trap.
In BR Chalice build against Miracles, perhaps. It dodges both counterbalance and my own chalice. Trigger when the opponent plays his Jace.

[rlesko]

They also ran stifle and flusterstorm for sideboard.

The obvious upside with jace, vryn's prodigy is that he doesn't die when flipped to smallpox

Who is they? This UB pox list sounds awesome!!

[Dr_D]

Who is they? This UB pox list sounds awesome!!

During the Cruise era I was messing around with U/B pox for Snapcaster, Stifle, Daze, and Treasure Cruise. It was one of the most fun decks I've ever played in my entire magic career.

[jredelstein]

Who is they? This UB pox list sounds awesome!!

I toyed with a list on this forum last year, I loved the snapcaster sinkhole plan, and the interaction with cabal therapy. I made a play of snapcaster, target smallpox, flash back cabal therapy sacking snapcaster then flashback smallpox. I think it could be better now that flip jace is a thing, another way to replay smallpox and sinkholes is brutal.

I do not know what list is being discussed, mine was never posted for any events I played in.

[rlesko]

Seems like some very cool plays. Is there a card in black that can be abused with Jace minus ability since its not technically "flashback"? For example, can cast invigorate for alternate cost out of the graveyard with a Jace minus.

[Claymore]

Since U/B Pox is being discussed, I saw this online recently - http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=12272&d=270714&f=LE

[mykatdied]

I saw that list. I don't know if I like calling it pox just because it runs smallpox out of the board. I definitely think the smallpox could have been in the main. Force could probably come out of the board vs fast combo which we have a fair match up against already if we can fire off discard.

Even the spell pierce and dismember or black sun's zenith could be the 4 Smallpox

[OmniStrata]

True, we shouldn't be discussing builds without Pox spells in the main. Then the thread would lose all meaning...:cry:

[mykatdied]

Fair enough sarcasm. It could be a great starting point to making something UB pox.

[rlesko]

True, we shouldn't be discussing builds without Pox spells in the main. Then the thread would lose all meaning...:cry:

Are you serious? Obviously, anyone posting here has some affinity for the namesake card, but decks evolve over time. a UB prison / resource denial deck would still belong here IMO. Its running Sinkhole main!!! Any sinkhole deck belongs here.

[mykatdied]

Are you serious? Obviously, anyone posting here has some affinity for the namesake card, but decks evolve over time. a UB prison / resource denial deck would still belong here IMO. Its running Sinkhole main!!! Any sinkhole deck belongs here.

His comment was sarcasm.

[mykatdied]

My main issue with the deck is the fact that it has a delver style to it and should likely be running delver. In which case it should be in the delver thread. There are certainly things we could take from it though.

Things I like in that list provided by running blue
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver - mills out and takes opponents creatures
Stifle - Great form of mana denial
Brainstorm - Good card selection spell to help smooth the road to victory
Snapcaster Mage - Buy back stifle, sinkhole, etc

Things I don't like
Spell pierce - Really more for dedicated tempo strategies that want to close a game quick and can't really fight a long fight, not great with liliana
Force of Will - Card disadvantage, again not great alongside liliana

For the cards I don't like I would love to see hymn to tourach or smallpox in the main as they play to our game plan much better and don't require being held for a reactive game plan.

[Toxboy]

Who is they? This UB pox list sounds awesome!!

A local at my legacy tournament in Stockholm, with a great love for land destruction. I could ask him for a list but from what I know he doesn't hang around the forums so other then his real name which I won't tell :tongue: I can't tell more for the moment, met him yesterday in the tourney and he's still brewing all kind of things.

[OmniStrata]

UB is fine. If it wins or doesn't win, as long as it's got Pox as the theme, it's fine. When it's in the sideboard, that means Pox isn't the main theme anymore. If people are going to start posting decks with no Smallpox, or Poxes in it, then again, shouldn't it be in another thread?

How can we discuss improving a deck based on Poxing when we remove the namesake card? :confused:

Claymore mentioned a "Poxless" pox deck and that made me cringe, but it had 4 Smallpox and no Big Pox. That's still a Pox deck cause the overall goal of card advantage through symmetrical sacrificing is there.

Frankly, if you can pull off a Death Cloud deck, it would be 'similar' to Pox but who'd run Death Cloud over Smallpox given the cmc?

I think the reason why U doesn't work with Pox is that the color's advantages cancel each other out. Pox wants to hit top deck but doesn't want to draw excess cards. Brainstorm doesn't help you 'recover' from a Smallpox and doesn't disrupt our enemy in any way shape or form. The only trick idea I liked was Shadow of Doubt but mono-B can run it anyway. I pitched a CounterBalance idea but a Counter Balanced Pox would end up defeating itself due to two different card advantage mechanics causing a lack of deck focus.

[OmniStrata]

After doing some quick checking, some B/U cards for a milling focus on Pox may work:

Mind Funeral: for a deck hellbent on blowing up and denying mana, this maybe the most stupidly powerful card ever... Backed by Extirpating fetchlands and non-basics, this could be quite anger-inducing.
Mind Grind: a worse version of Funeral, but probably fatal late game backed by Dark Rituals.
Paranoid Delusions: since it's not an enchantment, could it be used on say, a Mishra's Factory? That'd be goofy, but not efficient I'm sure.
Lim Dul's Vault: combo Pox?
Glimpse the Unthinkable: right before Mind Funerals...
Dream Salvage: Draw extra cards using Liliana's +1?
Diabolic Vision: Probably not good since it's a 5 card version of Brainstorm for slower speed and 2x cmc.
Consult the Necrosages: seems like great utility.

I'd consider running Nemesis of Reason cause of how epic the flavor and feel of the card is, but not as a 4 of obviously.

Problem is getting the Underground Seas and corresponding fetches. I myself can't build this deck but this could be a great starting point for some that want something different.

[mykatdied]

After doing some quick checking, some B/U cards for a milling focus on Pox may work:

Mind Funeral: for a deck hellbent on blowing up and denying mana, this maybe the most stupidly powerful card ever... Backed by Extirpating fetchlands and non-basics, this could be quite anger-inducing.
Mind Grind: a worse version of Funeral, but probably fatal late game backed by Dark Rituals.
Paranoid Delusions: since it's not an enchantment, could it be used on say, a Mishra's Factory? That'd be goofy, but not efficient I'm sure.
Lim Dul's Vault: combo Pox?
Glimpse the Unthinkable: right before Mind Funerals...
Dream Salvage: Draw extra cards using Liliana's +1?
Diabolic Vision: Probably not good since it's a 5 card version of Brainstorm for slower speed and 2x cmc.
Consult the Necrosages: seems like great utility.

I'd consider running Nemesis of Reason cause of how epic the flavor and feel of the card is, but not as a 4 of obviously.

Problem is getting the Underground Seas and corresponding fetches. I myself can't build this deck but this could be a great starting point for some that want something different.

Mind funeral would be great against belcher if you can take a turn and power it out with dark ritual.

Not sure about the other options as far as competitive. I know my shardless pox build is sweet but it runs life from the loam as well as brainstorm and ancestral. It's quite a different animal though

[rlesko]

If I was playing UB pox I would certainly not play cards like Force of Will or Spell Pierce. Things I envision blue offering:

JTMS - Do I need to say anything?
Snapcaster Mage - I would only run him if I was also playing therapy, as snapcaster mage + innocent blood / smallpox is quite a nonbo.
Flip Jace - provides filtering effect on the front and CA on the back. Only problem is he may turn on game 1 removal from an opponent
Brainstorm/Ponder. Ponder seems like a perfect card when we get into top deck mode.
Stifle - Great compliment to LD element
Visions - Question is, is this card good enough without cascaders

[mykatdied]

If I was playing UB pox I would certainly not play cards like Force of Will or Spell Pierce. Things I envision blue offering:

JTMS - Do I need to say anything?
Snapcaster Mage - I would only run him if I was also playing therapy, as snapcaster mage + innocent blood / smallpox is quite a nonbo.
Flip Jace - provides filtering effect on the front and CA on the back. Only problem is he may turn on game 1 removal from an opponent
Brainstorm/Ponder. Ponder seems like a perfect card when we get into top deck mode.
Stifle - Great compliment to LD element
Visions - Question is, is this card good enough without cascaders

I agree very much with your accessment.

With regards to visions I think it fits perfect for us. If we suspend turn 1 we get the value turn 5. Right about the time we generally have played out our hand and are ready to go with some new fresh cards so long as we have a way to draw them. Likely too slow vs fast combo but open up an easy 4 slots for boarding.

[zenitramleirdag]

i'm no expert in splashing colors in pox but when i hear about adding blue, i can't help but think of shadow of doubt..

[Sibelius]

Talking about splashing colours in Pox decks I brewed a version with Shardless and Ancestral Vision. It works pretty well.

Deck list and mini tournament report here

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/2016/05/20/the-brewery-agent-pox/

Sib

Hope you like it

[mykatdied]

Talking about splashing colours in Pox decks I brewed a version with Shardless and Ancestral Vision. It works pretty well.

Deck list and mini tournament report here

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/2016/05/20/the-brewery-agent-pox/

Sib

Hope you like it

Personally I won't give up mox diamonds. The explosive factor plus turn 1 library into shardless cascade into ancestral is way too good and happens often enough. I love having tombstalker because he is a very difficult to answer threat for the majority of legacy. Creeping tar pit seems good but I have enjoyed lumbering falls for the fact it can't be answered with spot removal. I suppose when you're not running creatures that may not be such an issue though. Not sure how you aren't running Sylvan Library, but I suppose that is just preference.

[Sibelius]

Personally I won't give up mox diamonds. The explosive factor plus turn 1 library into shardless cascade into ancestral is way too good and happens often enough. I love having tombstalker because he is a very difficult to answer threat for the majority of legacy. Creeping tar pit seems good but I have enjoyed lumbering falls for the fact it can't be answered with spot removal. I suppose when you're not running creatures that may not be such an issue though. Not sure how you aren't running Sylvan Library, but I suppose that is just preference.

I ran out of space for Sylvan Library. I was in my first build over the two Duress, but I had to add more turn one plays. Doing nothing on t1 is just not an option. I think that with such a number of spells we don't actually need library but it would be nice to find space for one or two. We are trying to blank removal, both smallpox and our opponents, so running Tombstalker doesnt seem like a good idea. This deck wins, it just takes a while :wink:

Sib

[mykatdied]

I ran out of space for Sylvan Library. I was in my first build over the two Duress, but I had to add more turn one plays. Doing nothing on t1 is just not an option. I think that with such a number of spells we don't actually need library but it would be nice to find space for one or two. We are trying to blank removal, both smallpox and our opponents, so running Tombstalker doesnt seem like a good idea. This deck wins, it just takes a while :wink:

Sib

I like your list don't get me wrong. It seems solid. I just like my list with library and mox diamond. But you are 100% correct when you say blind cascading into diamond is a feel bad. Especially if I don't have land in hand. Such a kick in the front.

[Quitrex]

So, what're everybody's thoughts on eternal masters? I like the sinkhole art and I look forewords to foil deluges, but I think they picked the wrong art for hymn to tourach.

[Hardcore]

If the price is right i will get myself a set of Sinkholes.

[halahel]

A Pox deck 5-0ed the League a couple days ago. What do you guys think about the build? It's similar to mine, but with some interesting choices. No Innocent Blood surprised me, as did the inclusion of Ob Nixilis.

[Hardcore]

post a link

[halahel]

post a link

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/422686#paper

[mykatdied]

Very interesting build. The mikokoro throws me off though. Not sure why you want to give your opponent cards in pox. But it obviously worked for that player.

[Toxboy]

Very interesting build. The mikokoro throws me off though. Not sure why you want to give your opponent cards in pox. But it obviously worked for that player.


If they are hellbent and you have smallpox or liliana they don't get to deploy any cards except at instant speed, also seen some stupid shit vs storm.

If you force them to draw a card in response to infernal tutor after they crack led they aren't hellbent anymore.

[Hardcore]

clever trick!

[mykatdied]

If they are hellbent and you have smallpox or liliana they don't get to deploy any cards except at instant speed, also seen some stupid shit vs storm.

If you force them to draw a card in response to infernal tutor after they crack led they aren't hellbent anymore.

I'm aware of the trick vs storm with infernal tutor, but it's good to mention anyway. It just seems odd for a pox deck to run that card. The 2 mana plus land investment just doesn't seem ideal to me. Clearly it worked though.

[zenitramleirdag]

i assume the 2 ratchet bombs in the main is a meta call, the pilot is probably expecting some eldrazi, monastery mentor and young pyromancers..so those should most likely be for the chalices(chalice at 1 hurts) and the token creatures..

i am curious with the demon, its abilities seem really good for pox..i guess as a 1-of its fine..

[mykatdied]

i assume the 2 ratchet bombs in the main is a meta call, the pilot is probably expecting some eldrazi, monastery mentor and young pyromancers..so those should most likely be for the chalices(chalice at 1 hurts) and the token creatures..

i am curious with the demon, its abilities seem really good for pox..i guess as a 1-of its fine..

Ob nixilis seems really good, but the 5 mana is very concerning to me

[halahel]

Ob nixilis seems really good, but the 5 mana is very concerning to me

I've been play-testing this build on xmage and with friends, and am pleasantly surprised with how solid it is. I was also concerned with Ob's cost. With ritual, though, he's easy to get on the board Turn 3. He also provides a useful outlet for rituals drawn after the first few turns. When he hits the board, he often has that "game over" effect you get from Nether Void or Abyss in certain match-ups. If you've ground your opponent down and then land the Ob, they're finished.

As for Mikokoro, it's been surprisingly useful. Another poster mentioned the synergy between Mikokoro and Liliana/Smallpox once you get your opponent hellbent. I've also used it to put a card in my hand for an emergency scroll activation, and I've used it with a Hymn in hand when opponent only held 1 card.

[mykatdied]

My concern is likely more around giving your opponent the chance to find more answers and business. I would rather have something that fills my hand and not theirs. Even underworld connection seems better or another nixilis.

[Quitrex]

I think I'm fine with the one copy, or replace it with a sea-gate wreckage. Also, pointing out that with the ob emblem, the mikokoro is 4 dmg a pop

[mykatdied]

I think I'm fine with the one copy, or replace it with a sea-gate wreckage. Also, pointing out that with the ob emblem, the mikokoro is 4 dmg a pop

That could be a perfect reason to run it. Good point actually. If you have liliana and ob out it's not likely that a threat will stick

[Quitrex]

Also, found a very compelling reason to run the second nether void. Turns out that if you hit Liliana before they get to five lands, then miracles just can't win the game.

[hpl324]

If you have lot of contrôle deck like in my meta is a absolute 😉

[OmniStrata]

That Ob Nixilis list is interesting. I suppose that was a very controllish meta as the deck has no Innocent Bloods. Is Innocent Blood no longer mandatory or was that simply a non-agro meta? :confused:

[Quitrex]

I am not very high on innocent blood right now, as most of the decks where we want to get creatures off the table that agressively, they have enough creatures to blank blood by the mid-game. I think the general meta is shifting towards wide or recursive removal, a'la deluge, ob, night of soul's betrayal, black sun's zenith, scroll, abyss, with a little suplimental point and click on the lines of murderous cut, victim of night, abrupt decay, dreadbore, vindicate, dismember, ghastly demise, or such. I also think we need to look at actual means of acquiring honest card advantage a'la ob, crucible, dust bowl/drownyard temple, sea-gate wreckage, so as not to get buried by the jace/loan decks

[Chiptoon]

I am not very high on innocent blood right now, as most of the decks where we want to get creatures off the table that agressively, they have enough creatures to blank blood by the mid-game. I think the general meta is shifting towards wide or recursive removal, a'la deluge, ob, night of soul's betrayal, black sun's zenith, scroll, abyss, with a little suplimental point and click on the lines of murderous cut, victim of night, abrupt decay, dreadbore, vindicate, dismember, ghastly demise, or such. I also think we need to look at actual means of acquiring honest card advantage a'la ob, crucible, dust bowl/drownyard temple, sea-gate wreckage, so as not to get buried by the jace/loan decks

I feel like Innocent Blood is a pretty integral piece to the deck. It only costs one black which is very important with all of the two mana spells we want to play. It deals with Mother of Runes, TNN, big threats, shroud, and redirect effects with very few downsides. Good targeted removal costs 2 which is a crowded slot and all of that removal is still dead to a Marit Lage. Pyromancer and Mentor are good against Innocent Blood, but those cards lose to Cursed Scroll anyways. I do think there is a slot for Murderous Cut, Spinning Darkness, or Toxic Deluge main deck, but I probably wouldn't drop below three copies of Innocent Blood for them.

[jredelstein]

I feel like Innocent Blood is a pretty integral piece to the deck. It only costs one black which is very important with all of the two mana spells we want to play. It deals with Mother of Runes, TNN, big threats, shroud, and redirect effects with very few downsides. Good targeted removal costs 2 which is a crowded slot and all of that removal is still dead to a Marit Lage. Pyromancer and Mentor are good against Innocent Blood, but those cards lose to Cursed Scroll anyways. I do think there is a slot for Murderous Cut, Spinning Darkness, or Toxic Deluge main deck, but I probably wouldn't drop below three copies of Innocent Blood for them.

Toxic Deluge and Night of souls betrayal are good against everything on that list, and are card advantage bc they can take out multiple threats, Innocent blood is not good at all against Marit Lage bc of being a sorcery.

Innocent blood is great when you need tempo but the other choices are better if you want card advantage. Pick which you need for your meta. They are all good cards.

[Chiptoon]

Toxic Deluge and Night of souls betrayal are good against everything on that list, and are card advantage bc they can take out multiple threats, Innocent blood is not good at all against Marit Lage bc of being a sorcery.

Innocent blood is great when you need tempo but the other choices are better if you want card advantage. Pick which you need for your meta. They are all good cards.

I like both of those cards, but they're slow. Unless you have a dark ritual or mox they don't see the battlefield until turns 3 or 4. Pox needs early cheap removal against fast tempo decks like Delver and the three main tribal decks, especially Elves, otherwise it's easy to fall too far behind early.

Reid Duke wrote a cool article about high impact cards. He was main decking two Nights' and one Plague to blank all of the X/1 creatures in decks. It's awesome being able to turn those cards into dead draws, but I think you need 1 mana removal in Legacy unless you have something that's recurrable.

[mykatdied]

To be fair he does have 2 copies of funeral charm which can kill x/1 creatures. He also has 2 ratchet bombs main which can 2 for 1 if not more an opponent. He has a tabernacle for massive hindering of creature strategies. Plus the usual smallpox, scroll and liliana. I wouldn't say he is particularly light in creature removal.

[OmniStrata]

After weighing Innocent Blood against the likes of Vapor Snag, Giant Growth (lol), Lightning Bolt, and Swords to Plowshares, the sorcery speed is a freaking huge setback. Geth's Verdict/Diabolic Edict is the next best thing but 2 mana to cast for me is 1 mana too many. I need to find a way to squeeze in Funeral Charms, Vendetta, or Contagion into my build... facepalm*

And yes, counting Cursed Scroll as CA and as 'instant speed' removal for weenies is great. I just need to find a way where I stop running into 'not enough mana to activate Cursed Scroll while punching opponent with another threat' problem.

I remember in the original Clark Kant thread saying Cursed Scroll is a terrible idea and now, with Liliana, it's now viable but still, if your opponent manages to stuff Liliana with a Pithing Needle or just kills / exiles her, the CS seems to become very difficult to use if you find yourself topdecking things you can't play right away. Or worse, I find the 'cast spell or use CS' dilemma happening more than I'd like it to. Can't do both unfortunately unless you're not running Mishra's and Wastelands. Or the game goes crazy long.

[AceOfJacks]

Greetings everyone. I have come to ask you all a stupid question, as stupid questions are all I know.

Is it possible to play this deck without the Nether Void and The Abyss? Or is it maybe possible to play Trinisphere as an alternative? Or am I just an idiot?

[Hardcore]

I went 3-1 today which is okay.

My first opponent was a storm deck, 2-1.
I hit him with wasteland, hymn, pox and lili, iirc. Tombstalker raced him down.
Second duel he played goblin warrens and I found no answer.
Third duel i played chalice for zero and followed up with lilliana.
He got stuck with one or two cards in hand with few lands in play. He conceded after some turns.

Next i fought Eldrazi. I didn't draw any wastelands despite including them specifically for this match upx-(
Thought-knot Seer probably won the game for my opponent. Nasty creature.
Toxic deluge was definitely not good here. Such aggro deck is like Burn but with creatures it appears.
0-2

One of the local players participated with a humility deck. Probably as a counter to Eldrazis. It was probably a home brew.
(Perhaps his deck is best described as Counterbalance-humility-lingering souls-Bitterblossom-jitte deck.)
The first duel i tried cut him off from mana to play his humility, but failed. One TB and a Nihilith got very small.
I can't recall the second duel.
The third however got to time, but despite having blockers he eventually died to his bitterblossom and my shrieking affliction.
2-1

Last a real surprise win vs Reanimator. First duel he failed to get things going. I put lili in play and forced him to sac Griselbrand. He drew his cards in response but found no force.
I don't know what he had had in his almost full hand but was happy i didn't lose as i had expected.
Next duel i began with Leyline of the Void in play, a possibility he overlooked when he sideboarded.
2-0


4 Bloodghast
3 tombstalker
4 nihilith

4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Pox
4 contagion
3 liliana of the veil
2 sensei's divining top
2 shrieking affliction
3 toxic deluge
13 Swamp
4 bloodstained mire
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 wasteland

Sideboard

4 leyline of the void
4 chalice of the void
4 engineered plague
1 liliana of the veil
2 pithing needle

[mykatdied]

Greetings everyone. I have come to ask you all a stupid question, as stupid questions are all I know.

Is it possible to play this deck without the Nether Void and The Abyss? Or is it maybe possible to play Trinisphere as an alternative? Or am I just an idiot?

As great as those cards are, they aren't necessary. They're just nice to have.

[AceOfJacks]

Ok. Follow up stupid question.

Has Waste Not been tested in any builds of this deck? It could be a potential win condition with Liliana and such.

[mykatdied]

Ok. Follow up stupid question.

Has Waste Not been tested in any builds of this deck? It could be a potential win condition with Liliana and such.

I know of some rack pox lists that tried it as a replacement to shrieking affliction, but it never took off

[Quitrex]

Short answer, for nether void you need some way to push mana costs up while you punish their mana. my preference after void is trinisphere, then go into sphere of resistance and/or main board chalice of the voids. as for the Abyss, it's simply there as an option to murder creatures in a repetitive manner. it can fairly easily be substituted by Night of Soul's Betrayal, as long as you tinker with your other removal spells (a murderous cut seems appropriate) accordingly to be able to hit the shard less agent + goyf style boards. Chains of Mephistopheles is in that same boat: so many of the card draw spells are one drops, chalice on one is relevant, or conversely, they're trying to efficiently chain spells together, which can be disrupted with sphere of resistance, thorn of amethyst, trinisphere etc.

[jredelstein]

Greetings everyone. I have come to ask you all a stupid question, as stupid questions are all I know.

Is it possible to play this deck without the Nether Void and The Abyss? Or is it maybe possible to play Trinisphere as an alternative? Or am I just an idiot?

I play GB Pox. I have never run The Abyss but I do own one. I have only run Nether Void once while Omni-Tell was big. I am a big fan of Chains of Mephistopheles which I consistently play 2 in my sideboard. But as many others have said Trinisphere is a great alternative. For expensive cards I'd say Liliana and Wasteland are must haves, the next one I'd want is The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. (My definition of expensive may be different than yours)


Ok. Follow up stupid question.

Has Waste Not been tested in any builds of this deck? It could be a potential win condition with Liliana and such.

There was a lot of talk when Waste Not came out. Ultimately the issue is that turns 1 and 2 are critical for making your opponent discard and you can't afford to take a turn off to cast an enchantment that doesn't progress your board.

[OmniStrata]

Waste Not was a waste [pun lol] but it could work with Mikokoro, Center of the Sea and Obnixilis in tandem. Force your enemy to draw in response to a discard ability.

[AceOfJacks]

This is the list I came up with, and then I looked at the first post to see what I did wrong. The only cards I'm missing are 4 Sinkhole (waiting for EMA reprints in hopes that UNL ones go down a few dollars), 1 Nether Void, 1 The Abyss. 24 lands seems borderline low, but I'm going to test Drownyard to see how it plays out.

2 Drownyard Temple
4 Mishra's Factory
10 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

3 Cursed Scroll

4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
1 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
2 Spinning Darkness
4 Thoughtseize

4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Nether Spirit
1 Nether Void


Sideboard:
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Engineered Plague
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 The Abyss


If I were to cut athe Abyss and Nether Void to add Trinispheres, I thought 2 might be enough, just to save a little deck space, but maybe 3 might be right? But then I would be inclined to add Funeral Charms or Murderous Cuts, which again means I need to find what to cut.

[Hardcore]

not sure you need rituals inthe main deck. You got plenty of turn one and two drops. You should hit mana for void easily.
I would cut the rituals and add swamps for a more balanced mana base.
Myself i run 13 Swamps, 4 Bloodstained Mire, 3 Urborg, 4 Wasteland (and soon a Mikokoro) to reliably get BB in my starting hand

[Quitrex]

I agree that you want a 25th land, and that it should be a swamp. I'm not in agreement on not needing mana acceleration, but if you're considering drown yard temple, you want to at least consider mox diamond over rit. Personally I can't stand spinning darkness in this meta, i'd actually rather see contagion, murderous cut, or even disfigure/dismember in this meta, as darkness doesn't do a single thing to death rite shaman. Also, I don't care for trinisphere in the main, although it's perfectly fine in the board. the point of the nether void is to have an over the top, game ending effect, which trinisphere has noticeably more trouble being. I'd consider a second pox or a crucible in that slot, as either one can provide backbreaking advantages, while still being perfectly serviceable in the matches where they don't shine, unlike trinisphere, which actually has the capacity to hurt you more than it hurts them in half of the matches you're likely to face.
Slight change of pace, Who all is going to columbus this weekend?

[zenitramleirdag]

I agree that you want a 25th land, and that it should be a swamp. I'm not in agreement on not needing mana acceleration, but if you're considering drown yard temple, you want to at least consider mox diamond over rit. Personally I can't stand spinning darkness in this meta, i'd actually rather see contagion, murderous cut, or even disfigure/dismember in this meta, as darkness doesn't do a single thing to death rite shaman. Also, I don't care for trinisphere in the main, although it's perfectly fine in the board. the point of the nether void is to have an over the top, game ending effect, which trinisphere has noticeably more trouble being. I'd consider a second pox or a crucible in that slot, as either one can provide backbreaking advantages, while still being perfectly serviceable in the matches where they don't shine, unlike trinisphere, which actually has the capacity to hurt you more than it hurts them in half of the matches you're likely to face.
Slight change of pace, Who all is going to columbus this weekend?

hmm, i wouldn't say the 24-land configuration is wrong, i've seen it work in some lists; but i personally feel more comfy with 25 or even 26..i run 26, with the 26th land being a maze of it and 3 rituals instead of the usual 4..

@ Quitrex
that is also the reason why i relegated the spinning darkness to the board(i still run 1 copy in my 75)..can't hit shaman, stryx, etc..i like a toxic deluge, a ratchet bomb, a murderous cut or a contagion(a very old favorite of mine) in its place instead..i'm not a fan of dismember in pox, i think i prefer disfigure or a smother over it, but thats just me..

i think adding multiple big poxes is actually very good right now, its good against miracles(helps keep them off 4 mana to cast jace and makes it difficult for them to cast entreat..) and eldrazi.......


on trinisphere:
-i board them against decks that like to cast brainstorm and ancestral visions..its surprisingly good against bug..
-it slows down burn, makes it hard for them to fireblast your face..
-and of course combo..
-i don't like it against decks that run vial like death and taxes and/or merfolk, etc...

[Hardcore]

I used contagion vs delver, but with the Eldrazi around Innocent Blood may be better.
That and slaughter pact.

[zenitramleirdag]

I used contagion vs delver, but with the Eldrazi around Innocent Blood may be better.
That and slaughter pact.

hmm, slaughter pact..interesting..
i recommend rituals to anyone who'd like to toy with it..

[Hardcore]

Yeah, you are right. It is castable too late to be of use.

[Toxboy]

hmm, i wouldn't say the 24-land configuration is wrong, i've seen it work in some lists; but i personally feel more comfy with 25 or even 26..i run 26, with the 26th land being a maze of it and 3 rituals instead of the usual 4..

@ Quitrex
that is also the reason why i relegated the spinning darkness to the board(i still run 1 copy in my 75)..can't hit shaman, stryx, etc..i like a toxic deluge, a ratchet bomb, a murderous cut or a contagion(a very old favorite of mine) in its place instead..i'm not a fan of dismember in pox, i think i prefer disfigure or a smother over it, but thats just me..

i think adding multiple big poxes is actually very good right now, its good against miracles(helps keep them off 4 mana to cast jace and makes it difficult for them to cast entreat..) and eldrazi.......


on trinisphere:
-i board them against decks that like to cast brainstorm and ancestral visions..its surprisingly good against bug..
-it slows down burn, makes it hard for them to fireblast your face..
-and of course combo..
-i don't like it against decks that run vial like death and taxes and/or merfolk, etc...


I think the best sideboard for the moment probably is engineered plague, since cavern of souls is getting a upswing and tribal strategies in general are getting bonuses, a great deal of decks get's randomly punished as well by the card and it has great value on everything from Merfolk, monks and pyromancer elemental tokens.

I run GB Pox so I don't run rituals, though I believe 28 lands and mana sources are correct including effect lands.

[Chiptoon]

I played 7 matches on Cockatrice with the 5-0 league list posted a page or two back. I went 5-2 however a couple of my matches were against unoptimized lists, so take that with a grain of salt. I think Thoughtseize over Inquisition might be correct now barring a Burn heavy meta. Taking Jace, Ad Nauseum, Natural Order, and Batterskull felt really good. The life loss aspect never really affected the outcomes of the games either.

I think the Leyline + Helm combo in the board also feels good. I found myself sideboarding out my Nether Spirits and a Scroll or two to become more of a pure prison deck with a combo finish quite often. The Funeral Charms never killed a creature and were used purely as discard spells. Ob Nixilis proved to be a very powerful card and was only countered once in my matches. I had been using him as a singleton in my sideboard, but he might actually belong maindeck.

I'm still not a fan of not having first turn removal against two toughness creatures. Deathrite was stickier than I'd like and Stoneforge could have been a major problem without Thoughtseize. Ratchet Bomb never really did much aside from one game against a mono green Elves list. I think the list is strong and with a couple of tweaks could prove to be a nice alternative to the Reid Duke build.

[Hardcore]

First turn removal is probably better than first turn discard, generally speaking. I tend to die to bad board position rather than combo.
Of course, the list mentioned above can probably run both.

[Toxboy]

I currently only run a singleton innocent blood as turn 1 removal, though I run the full playset of my abrupt decays at 2 cmc + ofc smallpox.

incl 3 crop rotation and cabal pit this gives my deck

17 removal spells (13)

for discard
18 discard (inlc 3 entomb for raven's) (15)

and lands incl 2 non mana producing
28 lands (26)

what have people found to be an optimal distrubution for their builds?

About how much removal, discard and lands are people playing?


As stated above Hardcore has focus on hard removal, though I have trouble with having such cards at my local meta with quite a bit of storm and combo. Therefore, cutting down on removals and instead using nether spirit (entomb) as a way of dealing with the most aggressive decks and crop rotation to deal with smaller threats.


My latest succesful build of reference
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11331&d=264344&f=LE

[Quitrex]

List I'm registering at the gp in a couple hours

1 bayou
2 drownyard temple
1 dust bowl
1 Forest
1 marsh flats
4 Mishra's factory
3 swamp
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 wasteland

1 nether spirit

4 abrupt decay
1 chains of Mephistopheles
2 crucible of worlds
2 cursed scroll
1 grim tutor
4 hymn to tourach
4 Liliana of the veil
4 mox diamond
2 nether void
4 smallpox
1 the abyss
4 thoughtseize
1 warping wail

2 black sun's zenith
3 chalice of the void
2 ensnaring bridge
1 night of soul's betrayal
3 pithing needle
4 surgical extraction

With the possible change of turning the chains into either a second warping wail or a third chains

[mykatdied]

List I'm registering at the gp in a couple hours

1 bayou
2 drownyard temple
1 dust bowl
1 Forest
1 marsh flats
4 Mishra's factory
3 swamp
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 wasteland

1 nether spirit

4 abrupt decay
1 chains of Mephistopheles
2 crucible of worlds
2 cursed scroll
1 grim tutor
4 hymn to tourach
4 Liliana of the veil
4 mox diamond
2 nether void
4 smallpox
1 the abyss
4 thoughtseize
1 warping wail

2 black sun's zenith
3 chalice of the void
2 ensnaring bridge
1 night of soul's betrayal
3 pithing needle
4 surgical extraction

With the possible change of turning the chains into either a second warping wail or a third chains

I'm not seeing verdant Catacombs on your list and you suggested making a chains be a 3rd chains. Make sure you go over your decklist carefully before registering. I am counting 2 possible decklist errors from your post.

I like the idea of more chains rather than a warping wail. I just don't think it does enough for us.

[Chiptoon]

Just finished another match with the League list and it was awesome. Does anyone know how to post a Cockatrice replay? Game three was truly insane and I'd like to share it with you guys. :tongue:

[Quitrex]

Missed the verdantly there, but not on the decklist, meant cursed scroll.

[AceOfJacks]

Time for another stupid question.

Is Ratchet Bomb our only way to deal with Chalice of the Void? All the 1 drops in the deck (Thoughtseize, Innocent Blood, Funeral Charm, Cursed Scroll) will be dead cards if that thing gets dropped turn 1 off an Ancient Tomb or land + Petal.

[Hardcore]

You have a problem with Eldrazi?
Myself i run a deck that is practically immune to chalice since i only run two SDT and three shrieking affliction as my turn one drops. (Nothing important.)

That is one method. The best probably, because the other is to run ratchet bombs and powder kegs which doesn't kill the Eldrazi creatures.

[AceOfJacks]

I wasn't thinking Eldrazi specifically, just looking at all of the 1 drops and wondering what our outs would be. Things like t1 Chalice for 1 would kill a good portion of the deck.

I currently play burn (has issues with chalice), mono red sneak attack (plays chalice itself), and i am building this deck as well (current build only has ratchet bomb sb as anti chalice tech). I'm just trying to get an idea to the decks strengths and weaknesses.

[OmniStrata]

Mono-black's only outs against resolved Chalices involve artifact nukes. Ratchet bombs and Powder Kegs vs. Enemy Pithing needles and Chalice of the Void are probably your best bet. Pox's biggest problems are nonland non creature permanents so the following will help deal with said issues:

Ratchet Bomb
Powder Keg
Plague Boiler (nukes planeswalkers and is all inclusive)
Culling Scales (Not a Jace killer sadly but with a Nether Spirit, very dangerous against low cmc slow decks)
Nevinyrral's Disk (4 mana for a super nuke that doesn't include walkers...)

Mono-B never could deal with enchantments or artifacts easily. This is the reason why Crucible and CounterBalance games are so annoying. At least with Crucibles, we have GY hate, but decks that solely win by playing the 'bad' permanents are a real issue. Enchantress, Aether Vial to a lesser degree come to mind.

Any other suggestions? Those of you who have G/B with Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse or the more rare B/W with Vindicate obviously have it easier. I like Dark Ritual and I'm cheap when it comes to dual lands. Only money card I'm saving for is Tabernacle.

[Hardcore]

Us resolving a counter to an opponents hate is effectively a timewalk for them. Against a fast deck like just Eldrazi it is a losing strategy. Since your whole deck is vulnerable you need to pay close attention to how your Meta develops. A total rebuild is in order if you start seeing two or more players including chalice in their main deck.

[PirateKing]

Any other suggestions?

I had successfully stalled the boardstate and used Liliana's ultimate to pick between all their lands or the moat or whatever it was that was stopping me from winning.
So not ideal, but there is that as well.

[mykatdied]

Gate to phyrexia is an option as well with nether spirit if you're really having issue with chalice and artifacts.

Ratchet bomb is just great against most of the format currently.

Is enchantress really that bad of a match up for you guys? In my experience we pretty keep them off mana and we easily answer their draw engine of Argothian enchantress with all of our non targeted removal. I have experienced enchantress as a positive match up

[Hardcore]

It is very rare and i can ignore it.

[Claymore]

Gate to Phyrexia can also work wonders with Worm Harvest, since you could have many worms out at a time. They would also work well with dupicate Gates, since apparently you can only activate the Gate once a turn.

I don't know if you guys play Worm Harvest or really need to kill that many artifacts but it's an option.

[jredelstein]

Trying to transition my GB Pox into a GB Lands/Pox hybrid. I want a recursive threat that is an alternate win from Dark Depths. I am thinking Worm Harvest or Syphon Life so that I can remain creatureless. Nether Spirit could be good too. Any other suggestions?

More mana denial with Wasteland and Rishadan Port and being able to play extra lands with Exploration.

Also looking for Japanese Foil version of the following that may go in the new build.
4 Krosan Grip
1 Boseiju Who Shelters All
1 Life from the Loam
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Dark Depths
1 Ghost Quarter

[Claymore]

Trying to transition my GB Pox into a GB Lands/Pox hybrid. I want a recursive threat that is an alternate win from Dark Depths. I am thinking Worm Harvest or Syphon Life so that I can remain creatureless. Nether Spirit could be good too. Any other suggestions?

More mana denial with Wasteland and Rishadan Port and being able to play extra lands with Exploration.

Start here - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27346-Jund-Depths

You may want to start in the very end pages too, but looks like the first page has interesting concepts.

[mykatdied]

Trying to transition my GB Pox into a GB Lands/Pox hybrid. I want a recursive threat that is an alternate win from Dark Depths. I am thinking Worm Harvest or Syphon Life so that I can remain creatureless. Nether Spirit could be good too. Any other suggestions?

More mana denial with Wasteland and Rishadan Port and being able to play extra lands with Exploration.

Also looking for Japanese Foil version of the following that may go in the new build.
4 Krosan Grip
1 Boseiju Who Shelters All
1 Life from the Loam
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Dark Depths
1 Ghost Quarter

I would say 1 nether spirit, 1 worm harvest, 2 dd with 3rd in board and 4 stage would be my win condition suite. Syphon life out of the board for burn could be cool... I guess. It is really mana intensive for 2 life though

[Quitrex]

Honestly, I swear by nether spirit, especially if you're playing entomb. To be fair I don't care much for loam pox variants, but that's mostly because I start feeling an awful lot like i'm either playing Lands (at which point...) or not using Loam to its full capacity. that being said, in a loam version I like the nether spirit as a one of next to one each of the syphon (burn decks, combo decks, decks capable of dealing with large quantities of creatures repeatedly) and the worm harvest (good for other decks that go wide and decks that can out race your syphon a'la batterskull) given possible meta shifts, I can see moving one of the three to the board and/or going up to a second copy of any of them in the main. I also think it's worth noting that the kill con on that list that miracles has the hardest time dealing with is syphon life, as they can simply float a 4 of (5 copies if they board in a keranos) with their counterbalance, as opposed to the fact that most lists don't play more than 2-3 3 drops in the main, with rarely more than two additional in the board (most of which they'll consider boarding out and/or not board in.)
So, at the GP I faced
1 Zoo 0-2 (g1 kept an anti brainstorm hand, turns out he's literally modern zoo with duals instead of shocks. g2 doesn't go much better, just takes 3 extra turns.

2 affinity 2-1 (g1 is t1 hymn, t2 decay scroll, t3 scroll activate. g2 he has 3 steel overseer on t3, g3 isn't even close, I have approx everything and he mulled to 5)

3 elves 0-2 (color stumble g1, g2 he exploded out the bottom of his curve, drew half his deck and cast a crater hoof by his third turn)

4 ANT Storm hahahaha 2-0

5 TES Storm hahahaha 2-1 to an explosive draw on the play

6 ANT Storm hahahaha 2-0. I'm never getting rid of the second nether void

7 show and post 0-2, what feels like a reasonable matchup isn't terribly forgiving when g1 he draws more crop rotations than i do ways to deal with them and casts emrakul on t5 through double wasteland smallpox, g2 he t2 show and tells in a titan and...

8 Shardless 2-1 the game i lost he had 3 ancestral suspended by his fourth turn and i found no way of punishing that... otherwise, the dust bowl drown yard temple did work in one and chains into nether void wrecked face in the other.

9 Elves 2-0 proved to be reasonable as smallpox into decay into void is still potent against basically everyone it seems.

10 Reanimator 0-2 turns out that dealing with a griselbrand before your second turn g1 and an iona g2 isn't terribly fun

11 Eldrazi 2-0 so... a very good matchup as long as you see a reasonable hand

12 Eldrazi 0-2 so... never finding a third land against t1 thorn of amethyst in both games doesn't feel as great

13 D&T 0-2 I misplayed horribly game 1 and lost that game to it, g2 he had a wonderful curve and I kept a speculative hand where both black sources were off the one urborg that he had a wasteland for.

14 Lands 0-2 I can't win game 1. and g2 I don't find a needle and he plays a turn 1 exploration into a t2 stage/depths. not the best showing

15 Shardless 2-1 runs about the way you'd expect. g1, my draw didn't line up the way i would have liked, g2 i politely tore him apart with the dust bowl/drownyard temple engine, g3 he suspended a t1 ancestral and played a t2 library. i top decked my chains. oops...

overall, I enjoyed the way the deck worked. I think i want one more black source in the list (i'm actually considering trimming a factory) and I think I want a main-board sweeper. I have a friend who put 8-5-2, 7-2 day one, with enchantress that had a living wish package that i'm considering trying. specifically, changes i'm going to make for the local legacy thing this coming tuesday
Main
-1 Mishra's Factory
-1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Warping Wail
+1 Swamp
+2 Living Wish

SB
-2 Ensnaring Bridge
-1 Chalice
-1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
-1 Pithing Needle
-1 Surgical
+1 Tabernacle
+1 Karakas
+1 Cabal Pit
+1 Sea Gate Wreckage
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Dust Bowl

[Hardcore]

Only in main deck you have 13 cards that require BB to cast, and that with only 13 sources for black mana.
That make Urborg a keycard, and a weakness, in your deck.

[Quitrex]

ya, went into the event knowing that and largely hoping that most people wouldn't pick up on it and punish it. also relevant to note is that urborg is more often than not the second black source on its own. I think it was approximately ⅔ of the time that it was Swamp or Diamond + urborg for hymn than factory or wasteland plus urborg.

[Quitrex]

Side note: I really don't like lingering souls. that card is very inconvenient.

[OmniStrata]

Me being a big Pox caster don't want to consider Thoughtseize cause paying life is what I do. That and I rarely block so every HP counts. I'm starting to lean toward Duress once more and will consider revamping my list to have Funeral Charms to deal with those turn 1 annoyances like mana-dorks or Lackeys. Or possible Disfigures if DRS is more prevalent.

[Hardcore]

It depends on the meta, ofc. If life is an issue you may have lot of fair decks in the field. Thoughtseize would better be replaced creature kill then i suppose.
Myself i am currently considering three Dismember in main deck. They would have been Innocent Blood if not for Eldrazi decks running chalice in main. (cunning as i am the IB are in the sideboard:cool:)