[Primer/Deck] Pox

[Mr. Safety]

Played in a 5 round 1k today.
Went 3-2 officially, but scooped to me friend with a 1-0-1 record at the end of our match in the 3rd round, we were in our third game at time. More on that match below. Ran out this list :


3 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit
1 Cursed Scroll
=5

1 Raven's Crime
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
=6

3 Collective Brutality
4 Smallpox
=7

3 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
=8

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Life From The Loam
2 Pernicious Deed
=7

1 Entomb
1 Crop Rotation
=2
=35

4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Cabal Pit
1 Bojuka Bog
=25

Sb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Choke
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Crop Rotation*
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Lost Legacy
1 Duress



So, while I was technically 3-2, I feel comfortable saying that the deck went no worse than 3-1-1 and had a good chance of being 4-1.

I highly suggest the green black version of pox over mono black. Josh Edelstein and I had a back and forth maybe 5 to 7 pages in the thread back and our deck lists are fairly similar. He is heavily leaning into the deed plan and I play ~3 to 4 cards on the 75 that don't play well with deed.

I am finding that Cabal Pit has been amazing for me. If I did change the deck, I'd lean further into the crop rotation /entomb/loam/utility lands plan. I've been spit balling some (probably bad) ideas based on running multiple Raven's crimes, loams, cabal pits, smallpoxes n and collective brutality.
The weaknesses are creature swarms, decks with lots of basics, jace the Mind scuptor, and combo (altho I didn't hit any).

I think you will have diminishing returns if you play more than one Raven's Crime. Loam has a big fat target on it post-board, so I understand having multiples is at least reasonable. Honestly, with Entomb I would probably play more copies and drop to singletons of Loam, Crime, and even 1x each of Nether Spirit/Bloodghast. You are only playing 2x Therapy, so the sac-synergy isn't a real focal point.

Crop Rotation could cause problems considering you aren't playing that many sources of green mana. I wouldn't play CR with less than 26 lands, maybe even 27 (Wasteland/Factory/Cabal Pit/Bojuka Bog/Tabernacle...these aren't lands, they are effectively spells.) It's a great instant speed trick, but I wouldn't ever play more than 1-2. Entomb with an active Loam does the same thing really, it's just slower.

I think you are going to be disappointed with Pernicious Deed with only 25 lands, and without any actual ramp. Yes it does a lot, but it's abysmally slow and doesn't kill PW's. Maybe 1 in the sideboard, but I've tried maindecking it and even with acceleration (I was using Deathrite Shaman) it was too slow.

I suggest this:

-2 Bloodghast
-2 Pernicious Deed

+2 Entomb
+2 Lands (Barren Moor + Fetchland is what I recommend)

I just noticed...no Hymns!!! How did that work out for you? I guess Brutality is the sub for it, which is fine. Brutality does so much for this archetype, I think it's a great addition to any pox deck.

If you are really having trouble with creature swarms, I would suggest 1x Darkblast. Entomb really shines again at getting that available.

[ClimbGneiss]

I think you will have diminishing returns if you play more than one Raven's Crime. Loam has a big fat target on it post-board, so I understand having multiples is at least reasonable. Honestly, with Entomb I would probably play more copies and drop to singletons of Loam, Crime, and even 1x each of Nether Spirit/Bloodghast. You are only playing 2x Therapy, so the sac-synergy isn't a real focal point.

Crop Rotation could cause problems considering you aren't playing that many sources of green mana. I wouldn't play CR with less than 26 lands, maybe even 27 (Wasteland/Factory/Cabal Pit/Bojuka Bog/Tabernacle...these aren't lands, they are effectively spells.) It's a great instant speed trick, but I wouldn't ever play more than 1-2. Entomb with an active Loam does the same thing really, it's just slower.

I think you are going to be disappointed with Pernicious Deed with only 25 lands, and without any actual ramp. Yes it does a lot, but it's abysmally slow and doesn't kill PW's. Maybe 1 in the sideboard, but I've tried maindecking it and even with acceleration (I was using Deathrite Shaman) it was too slow.

I suggest this:

-2 Bloodghast
-2 Pernicious Deed

+2 Entomb
+2 Lands (Barren Moor + Fetchland is what I recommend)

I just noticed...no Hymns!!! How did that work out for you? I guess Brutality is the sub for it, which is fine. Brutality does so much for this archetype, I think it's a great addition to any pox deck.

If you are really having trouble with creature swarms, I would suggest 1x Darkblast. Entomb really shines again at getting that available.

Collective Brutality has been amazing. I don't really miss Hymn at all. The other CA engines have been effective enough and they all tend to be able to hone in more precisely against your opponent whereas, as you and any other faithful Hymn player would know, you go whole tournaments where you feel Hymn misses the good stuff.

Pernicious Deed has been so-so, but I was running under the recommendation from Josh Edelstein who has had great success with a very similar built to this. I originally was inspired by a post of his run GB pox without depths and I really liked building a GB list with collective brutality and smallpox and plenty of stuff to pitch onto the yard. He and I branch apart in that I really like the instant speed interaction of the 2 Edict and 3 push because you can be more efficient with your mana by casting spells eot and if you get countered no biggie. The deeds have been the best versus the many mentors and pyromancers I've seen lately, so I might stick with them.
If anything, it seems your advice has pointed me to keeping the list the way it is, even if that wasn't your intention.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Alright guys, so I think I'ma get myself one of the juicy Pox cards for Christmas (getting yourself gifts is the reason for the season, right?). My question to you all is which card is most useful in MonoBlack Pox - Void, Chains, or Tabernacle? Obviously there's a price difference between them all as well, and that's a factor, but I can more or less swing any of them if it comes to it. Also, how many of each is optimal? Most lists I see don't run more than one of any of these, though occasionally you see 2 Chains in a deck.

Void seems to have the most style, but also possibly be too slow a lot, or win-more
Chains seems like a great card in certain matches, and again has all the Pox style, plus costs little enough that you can ritual it out. At the same time it seems dead in a some matches (e.g. D&T) and doesn't really effect the board or stop threats from hitting
Tabernacle is most expensive but also arguably most powerful

Thanks for advice!

[kranger]

Alright guys, so I think I'ma get myself one of the juicy Pox cards for Christmas (getting yourself gifts is the reason for the season, right?). My question to you all is which card is most useful in MonoBlack Pox - Void, Chains, or Tabernacle? Obviously there's a price difference between them all as well, and that's a factor, but I can more or less swing any of them if it comes to it. Also, how many of each is optimal? Most lists I see don't run more than one of any of these, though occasionally you see 2 Chains in a deck.

Void seems to have the most style, but also possibly be too slow a lot, or win-more
Chains seems like a great card in certain matches, and again has all the Pox style, plus costs little enough that you can ritual it out. At the same time it seems dead in a some matches (e.g. D&T) and doesn't really effect the board or stop threats from hitting
Tabernacle is most expensive but also arguably most powerful

Thanks for advice!

Hi!

beside Tabernacle I would go and get 2 Nether Voids. It's not only a win-more.
For me it is one of the main reasons to play Pox.

Chains is very often so-so. Depending strongly on the matchup if it is good or not. More a sideboard card rather than mainboard.
But especially with Geier Reach Sanitarium it is also a very funny card, at least for the Pox player :-)

Just my opinion!

[Hardcore]

A while back i noticed the most successful decks had run two void in the main. I do not if this still is true but I do vote for the card. It is brutal.

[kranger]

Hi all,

after a very long time of Legacy and tournament absence in general I will grab my 75 to a local tournament tomorrow. Want to play mono black Pox.
So it would be really nice to get some opinions of experienced Pox guys on some thoughts going round my head :-)

1.) In which matchups do you generally side out Nether Void?
2.) Are 4 Urborgs a must? Or are 3 also acceptable?
3.) What is 1st priority when I play Pithing Needle against D&T. My assumption is 1st Rishadan Port and 2nd Aether Vial?
4.) Wouldn't be Rishadan Port also be a valid option in Pox? I very rarely see it in the lists.
5.) What are your opinions on the Leyline/Helm combo in SB? I tried the combo out in testing but did not win a single game with it. All matches I won only the "classical" Pox way.

Looking forward to reading your opinions :smile:

[ntropy]

Alright guys, so I think I'ma get myself one of the juicy Pox cards for Christmas (getting yourself gifts is the reason for the season, right?). My question to you all is which card is most useful in MonoBlack Pox - Void, Chains, or Tabernacle? Obviously there's a price difference between them all as well, and that's a factor, but I can more or less swing any of them if it comes to it. Also, how many of each is optimal? Most lists I see don't run more than one of any of these, though occasionally you see 2 Chains in a deck.

Void seems to have the most style, but also possibly be too slow a lot, or win-more
Chains seems like a great card in certain matches, and again has all the Pox style, plus costs little enough that you can ritual it out. At the same time it seems dead in a some matches (e.g. D&T) and doesn't really effect the board or stop threats from hitting
Tabernacle is most expensive but also arguably most powerful

Thanks for advice!

I play mono black pox with none of this stuff, and I honestly think that its fine without. That said, I am saving towards a pair of Nether Voids. I think they give you the ability to completely lock out your opponent, which is needed in some match-ups. I think Abyss, Chains, and Tabernacle are powerful, showy ways to fight cards and match-ups we are already good against. I would go one Tabernacle, one Abyss, and of course 2Chainz if I had the money lying around though. (2 Drop of Honey for the Splashy Green Splash!)

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Hi all,

after a very long time of Legacy and tournament absence in general I will grab my 75 to a local tournament tomorrow. Want to play mono black Pox.
So it would be really nice to get some opinions of experienced Pox guys on some thoughts going round my head :-)

1.) In which matchups do you generally side out Nether Void?
2.) Are 4 Urborgs a must? Or are 3 also acceptable?
3.) What is 1st priority when I play Pithing Needle against D&T. My assumption is 1st Rishadan Port and 2nd Aether Vial?
4.) Wouldn't be Rishadan Port also be a valid option in Pox? I very rarely see it in the lists.
5.) What are your opinions on the Leyline/Helm combo in SB? I tried the combo out in testing but did not win a single game with it. All matches I won only the "classical" Pox way.

Looking forward to reading your opinions :smile:

Hi kranger!

I haven't been playing the deck as long as some of the people here, but I'll give my 2 cents:
1. No idea, don't own them :wink:

2. I play 3 Urborg right now and I don't have too much of a problem. 4 is probably ideal, but I think 3 is fine.

3. I'd probably name Vial first. Vial gets around a lot of your disruption since our removal is sorcery speed. It also circumvents your mana denial. Port just slows you down a bit - our deck is designed to draw more lands and after a while port will just be meaningless unless they have a threat. So if I'm going in blind I'll name Vial but if I need to answer a threat or land something ASAP I think Port make sense.

4. Worth a shot I guess, though we have a lot of colorless lands already. Would be interested to hear your results if you test it

5. I've played the Helm combo in SB a bit. I like it. You probably know this but you bring it in against combo and very aggro decks (eg Burn). It's definitely won me games again Burn, SnT, and Turbo Depths. Often there are a lot of dead cards in those matchups, so bringing it in isn't too bad. Just don't lean too heavily on it, and don't skimp on disruption; that's always plan A.



Those mentioning Nether Void as a great card - maybe can you say more about it? It feels like it could be a nail in the coffin, or else a straight win if you ritual it out. But it's not particularly proactive... Not saying it isn't great or anything, but it feels like Trinisphere - often you draw it and you wish it was a removal spell

[mykatdied]

Alright guys, so I think I'ma get myself one of the juicy Pox cards for Christmas (getting yourself gifts is the reason for the season, right?). My question to you all is which card is most useful in MonoBlack Pox - Void, Chains, or Tabernacle? Obviously there's a price difference between them all as well, and that's a factor, but I can more or less swing any of them if it comes to it. Also, how many of each is optimal? Most lists I see don't run more than one of any of these, though occasionally you see 2 Chains in a deck.

Void seems to have the most style, but also possibly be too slow a lot, or win-more
Chains seems like a great card in certain matches, and again has all the Pox style, plus costs little enough that you can ritual it out. At the same time it seems dead in a some matches (e.g. D&T) and doesn't really effect the board or stop threats from hitting
Tabernacle is most expensive but also arguably most powerful

Thanks for advice!

Tabernacle is a fairly clear favorite for many reasons.
1. It compliments the mana denial and creature removal plan very well.
2. It ports over to other decks like Lands, 12 Post or some Vintage decks if you're into that.
3. It is rarely a double edged sword as we don't run many creatures. At worst it could be a non mana source when you want one.

Nether Void is like the second but has more cons than pros.
1. Great vs Combo.
2. You can lock yourself under it fairly easily.
3. Doesn't really port over to other decks.

Chains is really the last thing I would pick up if at all.
1. Great vs cards like Brainstorm, portent, predict and Jace's 0 ability.
2. Not great vs cards like Griselbrand, Ponder, Preordian etc.
3. Doesn't port over well.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Just thought I'd share a cool story. Played at the local store the other day, thought I'd try out Liliana, Last Hope as I'd seen she does pretty well in some matchups and has something to offer both against small dweeb aggro type decks and also against control with her ultimate.

So the match is against Turbo Eldrazi. I had played this guy the week before and lost 1-2, the last game going almost to time with everyone watching us as he totally stomped me with Ulamogs and Emrakuls (was actually kinda cool). This time around, I lose the first game to misplaying with my factories (I should have gone for his head but I decided to try and keep down his second Ugin :rolleyes:). I won the second to hating out his manabase extra hard (3x MD Sinkhole is good here) and making him discard Kozilek the Distortion just in the nick of time.

Last game then, and now of course the crowd gathers since we both play slow decks. I manage to get Liliana Last Hope down pretty quick and slowly uptick her. He lands Bottled Cloister, blanking all our discard. Then he drops Thought Knot to pressure her, but I use her +1 on it, and then he runs it into my Factory (he's an experienced player, so I don't know why he did that, but I think the fear of her ultimate kinda messed with him). I am basically biting my nails because I'm dead to Ugin, but I manage to get her ultimate. Make 2 zombies. He has a TKS and is drawing three cards a turn off of Endbringer and Cloister. Still no Ugin. I make 4 more zombies. He drops Ulamog, Infinite Hunger, kills a scroll and a zombie. At this point our game is the end of Innistrad, Liliana's endless ranks of zombies against the Eldrazi menace.

I swing 5 zombies into his 3 Eldrazi, get in 4 damage. He drops to 4 and I know I have him next turn, as long as that pesky Spirit Dragon doesn't show up. End of my turn, make 4 zombies. He untaps, draws off Cloister, draws for turn, draws off Endbringer... still no Ugin. He plays Glimmerpost and goes up to 7. Then he sits there thinking for about 5 minutes solid. Finally he plays another TKS and passes the turn. I untap and throw the Factory in with the zombies for just enough to win the game.

In conclusion, my first game with LtLH went pretty well. I think she's better than Ob Nixilis, for example, though he would also have won that game I think. If you want to know about this matchup - key cards to make them not get are Ugin and Kozi the Distortion. The former is hard to interact with for us, and the latter will draw them a full hand and then we just lose. Other than that their guys are just big things you can kill with Smallpox. Mess up their mana and try to win fast (Tombstalker would have been good I think).

Much love to the Pox fam, keep turning swamps sideways!

[Mr. Safety]

Nice!!! The ultimate from LtlH is exactly what Pox wants. I could see a 4/2 or a 3/2 split between Veil/Last Hope easily. I think Bitterblossom is slightly better, just simply due to mana efficiency, but I can definitely see the value in exponential zombie hordes as a finisher.

[Hardcore]

Indeed. Thing is that's the best she can do. The other abilities are not that great.
BTW Her ultimate is not that hot either.
The emblem creates zombies at the beginning of the end step. If you are in a hurry that is no good.

[malfie13]

Hi, all. I play two legacy decks. I play mud and have posted under it several times, and posted a 22nd place finish with it in pitt, recently, with a 700+ person tournament. My first love is pox, tho. I haven't played it competitively since the dig era, tho. I know we got some new tools, most notably push and brutality. My best finish with pox was at eternal weekend 3 or 4 years ago, where i went 5-2-1, but got knocked out by the draw, so i left rd 8 instead of staying through rd 9. My buddies were both saltlicks, otherwise i would have played out the rd and see if i placed in the t8, although i do not to this day know what the breakers were. Im going to post my current list, with the caveat of i think the sinkholes can be brutalies easilly. I always play a splash color, usually green. My two builds are either combo or value. Combo is crop rots and dark depths combo with mox diamonds, and usually 26 or 27 lands toolbox. I'm currently keen to try value pox, which is the more prison heavy version with cursed scrolls, and etc.

Deck: Legacy GB Pox sans combo.dec

Counts : 61 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:1
1 Nether Spirit

Spells:36
2 Cursed Scroll
3 Dark Ritual
2 Innocent Blood
2 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Cursed Totem
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
2 Sylvan Library
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Toxic Deluge
1 The Abyss
1 Beseech the Queen

Lands:24
1 Bayou
1 Cabal Pit
2 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Hissing Quagmire
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Spawning Pool
2 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
1 Dread of Night
1 Drop of Honey
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Engineered Plague
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Trinisphere
1 Helm of Obedience
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Noetic Scales

[Hardcore]

Hi Malfie!

I like your list. Cool selection of cards, especially Cursed Totem in main!

[ntropy]

Hey all. I 3-0'd my local weekly twice recently, beating Miracles, UB Reanimator, Tezzerator, GW Enchantress, UR Delver, and Death and Taxes. I'm feeling pretty good about my list for a random meta. I'm really sold on 2x Ratchet Bomb in the main and 4x Collective Brutality, 4x Pithing Needle in the 75. (1 and 3, 2 and 2, respectively) I have liked 2x Lost Legacy in the board enough to keep testing. I got rid of Tomb of Urami, too. It's cute but cost me more games(2) than it won me(0). Just sharing. My list is in a previous post. Its Mono Black, no Legends.

[Hardcore]

Good to hear you are doing well!

[Bam Bam]

Hey guys, wanted to get your guys thoughts on the delve threats. Been running 2 tombstalker, 1 angler and it's been amazing in loam pox. Having a solid finisher has been extremely important. Mishra factory/nether spirit beats sometimes just don't cut it. My concerns before adding the delve threats was delving lands I wanted to loam back, but we cast plenty of spells. Another concern was smallpox nonbo, but most situations I'll happily sac a factory if I just have to smallpox that turn. Etc etc. Anyways, another difference in my list is 4 md chalice, so that shuts off plow a lot of times.

[Mr. Safety]

Hey guys, wanted to get your guys thoughts on the delve threats. Been running 2 tombstalker, 1 angler and it's been amazing in loam pox. Having a solid finisher has been extremely important. Mishra factory/nether spirit beats sometimes just don't cut it. My concerns before adding the delve threats was delving lands I wanted to loam back, but we cast plenty of spells. Another concern was smallpox nonbo, but most situations I'll happily sac a factory if I just have to smallpox that turn. Etc etc. Anyways, another difference in my list is 4 md chalice, so that shuts off plow a lot of times.

There's a guy at my local that plays 4x Tombstalker in his mono-black pox. He's that much sold on how good it is. Tombstalker + even one Mishra's Factory closes games FAST.

[Claymore]

What about the other Delve demon that can kill creatures? I've seen him in lists awhile ago.

[Mr. Safety]

What about the other Delve demon that can kill creatures? I've seen him in lists awhile ago.

Necropolis Fiend, for reference.

Not sure about the cost, it's even more prohibitive than Tombstalker. I think the ability is very good, if you have spare cards to delve. I think the real hold-up is that you need to pay X along with removing X cards, so anything beyond 3 is a stretch. That might be good enough, not sure, haven't tested him.

[FavoredRevenant]

Playing Necropolis Fiend over Tombstalker gets rid of his auxiliary effect as removal for Gurmag Angler in the Delver matchups. If you're reliant on Push to clear opposing threats, Angler can present a serious roadblock. Tombstalker races just as fast and provides the option to trade on the block if that suits you. You also have to ask yourself how often Necropolis Fiend is going to be used to kill a creature instead of using it for T: Deal 4 damage to target opponent.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

How to people feel about Ensnaring Bridge? It seems like a decent sideboard card against SnT and that kind of thing, but I was thinking of running it main, as it can shut down some decks completely game 1 and is a must-answer in g2. We can keep our hands low with Liliana...

I dunno, just a thought.

[mykatdied]

How to people feel about Ensnaring Bridge? It seems like a decent sideboard card against SnT and that kind of thing, but I was thinking of running it main, as it can shut down some decks completely game 1 and is a must-answer in g2. We can keep our hands low with Liliana...

I dunno, just a thought.

My most recent Pox list included 4 ensnaring bridge and went way too heavy on lilianas. I think bridge was incredible overall. Rest of the deck needed work and I am currently finding a way to improve it.

[Mr. Safety]

How to people feel about Ensnaring Bridge? It seems like a decent sideboard card against SnT and that kind of thing, but I was thinking of running it main, as it can shut down some decks completely game 1 and is a must-answer in g2. We can keep our hands low with Liliana...

I dunno, just a thought.

Bridge + Leyline + Helm = solid game plan. I would still maindeck some number of Factorys for blocking, or attacking if your helm is dealt with, but I think that's one of the best reasons to play Helm/Leyline as a win condition. I think Ensnaring Bridge + Bitterblossom is really strong as well, if you don't feel comfortable with Leyline/Helm (or don't have access to it.) I'm still convinced Bitterblossom is the best threat Pox could play. If I sleaved up Pox today, I would play 4x Bitterblossom/Bridge main and sideboard 4x Leyline of the Void/3x Helm of Obedience. I wouldn't even mess around with Chains/Abyss/Nether Void.

Theoretical list:

4x Bitterblossom
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Smallpox
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Collective Brutality
4x Innocent Blood
2x Ratchet Bomb
3x Thoughtseize
2x Cabal Therapy
3x Dark Ritual
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Crucible of Worlds

4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Urborg
12x Swamp

Sideboard
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Helm of Obedience
2x Collective Brutality
3x Pithing Needle
3x Engineered Plague


Much more prison-esque, but seems pretty hot to me. If I owned the Helms and BB's I'd be playing this tomorrow.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

That's an interesting way of doing it, I think Bitterblossom does really well under Bridge, and Leyline-Helm is a good move too. I was thinking I'd use Cursed Scroll to win under the Bridge, it's also good on its own and doesn't have the side problem of draining our life. Ob-Nix was another thought, though plussing him to draw cards is counterproductive... In general if you have Bridge and the game is good and stalled then I figured Liliana can just take over and you can draw back up to the right number and start attacking once they have no relevant permanents (was surprised to see just 3x in your list). Was also thinking LtLH could work, once she's got enough zombies to take over the ground we can just draw up to 2 cards and attack.

Might try something like your list out soon, I don't have the bitterblossoms but I do have the Leylines and 2x Helm... Probably try to be normal Pox and win with Scrolls in the MD.

Was also thinking of going hard on Trinispheres with more Sinkholes. But I think that might be a different deck, not sure if I want to put that and the Bridge thing in since it would dilute the removal/discard a lot.

[Hardcore]

Porphyry nodes ?

[Mr. Safety]

That's an interesting way of doing it, I think Bitterblossom does really well under Bridge, and Leyline-Helm is a good move too. I was thinking I'd use Cursed Scroll to win under the Bridge, it's also good on its own and doesn't have the side problem of draining our life. Ob-Nix was another thought, though plussing him to draw cards is counterproductive... In general if you have Bridge and the game is good and stalled then I figured Liliana can just take over and you can draw back up to the right number and start attacking once they have no relevant permanents (was surprised to see just 3x in your list). Was also thinking LtLH could work, once she's got enough zombies to take over the ground we can just draw up to 2 cards and attack.

Might try something like your list out soon, I don't have the bitterblossoms but I do have the Leylines and 2x Helm... Probably try to be normal Pox and win with Scrolls in the MD.

Was also thinking of going hard on Trinispheres with more Sinkholes. But I think that might be a different deck, not sure if I want to put that and the Bridge thing in since it would dilute the removal/discard a lot.

I really like sinkhole + trinisphere, solid tech. I would want 4x dark ritual in that type of build. T1 trini, or just t1 discard + sinkhole. Sinkhole really needs more mana to feed it, but when the mana lines up it can be incredible.

I also like 4x nether spirit/bloodghast + contamination with sinkhole.

[Rampart]

I really like sinkhole + trinisphere, solid tech. I would want 4x dark ritual in that type of build. T1 trini, or just t1 discard + sinkhole. Sinkhole really needs more mana to feed it, but when the mana lines up it can be incredible.

I also like 4x nether spirit/bloodghast + contamination with sinkhole.

Quick question for you:

What are you trying to solve with Bitterblossom/Ensnaring bridge that a more standard build can't answer? is this a combination of cards that you just want to test or try out or are you struggling with a match-up, etc.

I am new to pox (not to legacy) and when you read Pox content and look at placing decklists it feels like there is some "randomness" in thought and deck building. Just trying to get a deeper understanding of what is going on as I start to play more and more tournaments.

Thanks

[aslidsiksoraksi]

You're right that there is a good deal of randomness or just feeling-it-out that goes with those decklists. The deck is too fringe to have a lot of dedicated theory discussion, and people end up going with what they feel is working.

I guess when I suggested the bridge or the trinisphere/sinkhole thing I didn't have a specific matchup in mind, I was more thinking of things that have been good in games and how to make those elements stronger.

Bridge will just win game 1 against a lot decks if it resolves (Delvers w/o K-command, DnT, Reanimator...)

Trinisphere also is strong against Delver decks and Mentor decks, Brainstomr decks in general. Good against combo if you get it out fast enough.

Having played Pox for only about 4 months I feel like I am still feeling out the matchups. But my experience so far has been that there aren't any totally terrible matchups except Loam decks. I haven't won much against Sneak and Show either, but that might just be my experience. Most Delver matchups are alright to good, Blue Control decks (Czech and Miracles) are alright but not great... Most matchups feel relatively even to me, aside from the Loam games. A lot depends on your draw and you and your opponent play of course.

Pox's classic weakness is it lacks card manipulation. Bridge and Trinisphere don't necessarily help directly, but they can provide harder locks than we usually have, so that we have more time to draw? My other thought was Crystal Ball, but it seems so weak

[Rampart]

You're right that there is a good deal of randomness or just feeling-it-out that goes with those decklists. The deck is too fringe to have a lot of dedicated theory discussion, and people end up going with what they feel is working.

I guess when I suggested the bridge or the trinisphere/sinkhole thing I didn't have a specific matchup in mind, I was more thinking of things that have been good in games and how to make those elements stronger.

Bridge will just win game 1 against a lot decks if it resolves (Delvers w/o K-command, DnT, Reanimator...)

Trinisphere also is strong against Delver decks and Mentor decks, Brainstomr decks in general. Good against combo if you get it out fast enough.

Having played Pox for only about 4 months I feel like I am still feeling out the matchups. But my experience so far has been that there aren't any totally terrible matchups except Loam decks. I haven't won much against Sneak and Show either, but that might just be my experience. Most Delver matchups are alright to good, Blue Control decks (Czech and Miracles) are alright but not great... Most matchups feel relatively even to me, aside from the Loam games. A lot depends on your draw and you and your opponent play of course.

Pox's classic weakness is it lacks card manipulation. Bridge and Trinisphere don't necessarily help directly, but they can provide harder locks than we usually have, so that we have more time to draw? My other thought was Crystal Ball, but it seems so weak

I can respect that. We all have cards that we have bias's for. I am not a fan of hardcore prison in pox personally as I have always found it to be disappointing, I would much rather be playing Braids Stax if I was going down that road as it has better tools. I was more interested in bitterblossom, but after playing with it for a little bit I don't think it is a card that I want to explore any more. I was looking for a 15th card in my sideboard that can close games out fast and bitterblossom is not that.

I think Pox is in a pretty good place, Loam decks are definitely the worst match-up but that gets much better after board and your right nothing else feels unwinnable. If you want to draw more cards, there is always Bottle Cloister or Coercive Portal.

[ntropy]

I'm worried that Blood Sun (from Rivals of Ixalan) will power up Red based Prison decks. Both Blood Sun and Mono Red Prison decks in general are pretty good against us.

Does anyone have any thoughts on fighting prison decks? Tech, Play patterns, approaches to the match? I've struggled with both Moon Stompy and Sneak attack already, and I'm just trying to prepare in case the hype is real.

Thanks!

(Sorry if this is a double post, my computer is acting funny)

[Hardcore]

I'm worried that Blood Sun (from Rivals of Ixalan) will power up Red based Prison decks. Both Blood Sun and Mono Red Prison decks in general are pretty good against us.

Does anyone have any thoughts on fighting prison decks? Tech, Play patterns, approaches to the match? I've struggled with both Moon Stompy and Sneak attack already, and I'm just trying to prepare in case the hype is real.

Thanks!

(Sorry if this is a double post, my computer is acting funny)

Not relying too much on Mishra's Factory to win, not having too many 1cc spells in the deck. At least that is how my deck handle moon stompy. Look at it the other way; stompy want to hit your weaknesses. In Legacy that is usually a mana base full of non basics and lots of cc 1 spells. Ie, the typical Delver deck. Mono B otoh don't really look like that. Chalice on one doesn't stop us, neither does blood moon. We play Hymn, liliana, Pox etc. And lots of swamps.
The trick thus is to blank the hate. If you do that moon stompy will become very toothless.

Sneak attack is annoying, but a different kind of deck and need another approach.

[LeonardoWilhelm]

Hi there, guys!

I think I finally found a balanced and consistent build. I used to think that the right build required four copies of most cards, but I was wrong. After testing for almost two weeks now, I am certain that the following list is the most robust and has shown the most results I have ever experienced, regarding Legacy Pox. I played against all sorts of Delver variants, Sneak & Show, Death & Taxes, with surprisingly good results.


Land (25)
2x Cabal Pit
1x Maze of Ith
4x Mishra's Factory
9x Snow-Covered Swamp
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland

Enchantment (3)
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Nether Void
1x The Abyss

Planeswalker (3)
3x Liliana of the Veil

Sorcery (16)
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
2x Sinkhole
3x Smallpox
3x Thoughtseize

Artifact (6)
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Cursed Scroll
1x Meekstone
1x Phyrexian Totem
1x Trinisphere

Creature (1)
1x Nether Spirit

Instant (6)
3x Dark Ritual
3x Fatal Push

Sideboard (15)
2x Dread of Night
2x Engineered Plague
2x Extirpate
2x Massacre
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Tormod's Crypt



The deck was shaped with my local metagame in mind, for sure, but here goes my two cents on it;


Lands:
Urborgs and 9 basic swamps as black mana sources
Wasteland, Cabal Pit, Maze of Ith and The Tabernacle at Pendrel Valle as resource denial/Taxation effects
Mishra's Factory as our main win condition, very much like the decks of old (Like Randy Buehler's 'The Deck' and others)

Enchantments:
Legends epicness. Enough said.


Planeswalker:
I tried using 4 copies of 'Liliana of the Veil', but surprisingly, three worked better. I can even summon her turn 1 kinda regularly, with Dark Ritual's help.

Sorcery:
Here is where I had the most trouble fitting all pieces together. I used to run 4 of everyone of these, but as I ran more and more tests, I realized that it was wrong. Then after lots of thinkering, I came up with this;

* 4 copies of Hymn to Tourach. It is amazing. Perhaps one of the most amazing black spells, ever. Can be used in any stage of the game, most likely with catastrophic results to the opponent.
* 4 copies of Innocent Blood. Undefendable removal. Usually kills anything the opponent has for 1 black mana. Amazing.
* 2 copies of Sinkhole. The card I most struggled with. Two copies is enough and can help tremendously, without getting in the way.
* 3 copies of Smallpox. Yep, I've done it. I lowered the Smallpox count. For me, it worked better than a full set, which I didn't think would happen, but hey.
* 3 copies of Thoughtseize. Same logic behind Sinkhole. 3 copies do not get in the way late game and we reduce the life loss a little.

Artifacts:
The later additions to the deck. It made a big difference in the re-utilization of resources, which are scarce, prison elements and gave another kill condition;

* 1 copy Crucible of Worlds. It creates a soft lock, recurring infinite blockers (Mishra's Factories), Wastelands and Cabal Pits.
* 2 copies of Cursed Scroll. I've always been reluctant in using this card, until I used and understood it. It wins games by itself.
* 1 copy of Meekstone. Yep, Meekstone maindeck. It shuts down Delvers, Gurmar Anglers, Griselbrands and more. For 1 mana.
* 1 copy of Phyrexian Totem. The ideal turn 1, can be a source of mana or a win condition, all in one adorable Phyrexian.
* 1 copy of Trinisphere. Prison element, which helps a lot our game-plan. Makes people mad.

Creature
1 copy of Nether Spirit. The only deck this fellow plays, I think. We can discard it for Liliana's ability or Smallpox effect. Normally an recurring blocker, sometimes a win condition as well.

Instants:
* 3 copies of Dark Ritual. I used to run 4 of these, but then I drew it late game and died. 3 copies showed to be the sweet spot.
* 3 copies of Fatal Push. The most recent addition. It kills Delvers, Thalias, Deathrite Shamans, Stoneforge Mystics, Snapcaster Mages and some more. Hell yeah.


Sideboard:

The sideboard is divided basically into:

Death & Taxes hate:
2x Dread of Night
2x Massacre
2x Engineered Plague

Combo/Sneak & Show hate
2x Extirpate
2x Pithing Needle

Delver/Goblins/Weenies hate
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
2x Ratchet Bomb

Dredge hate:
2x Tormod's Crypt


Hope you guys like it! If you have any question, feel free to ask!
Best regards.

[Barachai]

Hi there, guys!

Hope you guys like it! If you have any question, feel free to ask!
Best regards.

I do like it! However, my local meta is infested with Lands and Pile; how would you accommodate such a meta?
Second question, what do you think of Beseech the Queen? Lots of 1-ofs to find in your list.
I like the mainboard meekstone :smile:

[LeonardoWilhelm]

I do like it! However, my local meta is infested with Lands and Pile; how would you accommodate such a meta?
Second question, what do you think of Beseech the Queen? Lots of 1-ofs to find in your list.
I like the mainboard meekstone :smile:


Hi there!

Well, 'Czech Pile' is pretty much a 'wider' Grixis Delver, so a similar strategy applies to that scenario. I would pack more hand disruption (like 'Inquisition of Kozilek') and Ratched Bombs, to blow everything up. I would prioritize a hard lock as soon as possible as well (with 'Nether Void', for example).

Regarding tutors, I am thinking about the idea of moving 'Chains of Mephistopheles' to the sideboard, then I could put 1 copy of 'Beseech the Queen' mainboard. The idea is quite interesting, it is like having another copy of my 1-of spells. I will have to test that one out, though.


Thanks to you for the insight!
Best regards.

[Fjaulnir]

Hi there, guys!

I think I finally found a balanced and consistent build. I used to think that the right build required four copies of most cards, but I was wrong. After testing for almost two weeks now, I am certain that the following list is the most robust and has shown the most results I have ever experienced, regarding Legacy Pox. I played against all sorts of Delver variants, Sneak & Show, Death & Taxes, with surprisingly good results.


Land (25)
2x Cabal Pit
1x Maze of Ith
4x Mishra's Factory
9x Snow-Covered Swamp
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland

Enchantment (3)
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Nether Void
1x The Abyss

Planeswalker (3)
3x Liliana of the Veil

Sorcery (16)
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
2x Sinkhole
3x Smallpox
3x Thoughtseize

Artifact (6)
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Cursed Scroll
1x Meekstone
1x Phyrexian Totem
1x Trinisphere

Creature (1)
1x Nether Spirit

Instant (6)
3x Dark Ritual
3x Fatal Push

Sideboard (15)
2x Dread of Night
2x Engineered Plague
2x Extirpate
2x Massacre
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Tormod's Crypt



The deck was shaped with my local metagame in mind, for sure, but here goes my two cents on it;


Lands:
Urborgs and 9 basic swamps as black mana sources
Wasteland, Cabal Pit, Maze of Ith and The Tabernacle at Pendrel Valle as resource denial/Taxation effects
Mishra's Factory as our main win condition, very much like the decks of old (Like Randy Buehler's 'The Deck' and others)

Enchantments:
Legends epicness. Enough said.


Planeswalker:
I tried using 4 copies of 'Liliana of the Veil', but surprisingly, three worked better. I can even summon her turn 1 kinda regularly, with Dark Ritual's help.

Sorcery:
Here is where I had the most trouble fitting all pieces together. I used to run 4 of everyone of these, but as I ran more and more tests, I realized that it was wrong. Then after lots of thinkering, I came up with this;

* 4 copies of Hymn to Tourach. It is amazing. Perhaps one of the most amazing black spells, ever. Can be used in any stage of the game, most likely with catastrophic results to the opponent.
* 4 copies of Innocent Blood. Undefendable removal. Usually kills anything the opponent has for 1 black mana. Amazing.
* 2 copies of Sinkhole. The card I most struggled with. Two copies is enough and can help tremendously, without getting in the way.
* 3 copies of Smallpox. Yep, I've done it. I lowered the Smallpox count. For me, it worked better than a full set, which I didn't think would happen, but hey.
* 3 copies of Thoughtseize. Same logic behind Sinkhole. 3 copies do not get in the way late game and we reduce the life loss a little.

Artifacts:
The later additions to the deck. It made a big difference in the re-utilization of resources, which are scarce, prison elements and gave another kill condition;

* 1 copy Crucible of Worlds. It creates a soft lock, recurring infinite blockers (Mishra's Factories), Wastelands and Cabal Pits.
* 2 copies of Cursed Scroll. I've always been reluctant in using this card, until I used and understood it. It wins games by itself.
* 1 copy of Meekstone. Yep, Meekstone maindeck. It shuts down Delvers, Gurmar Anglers, Griselbrands and more. For 1 mana.
* 1 copy of Phyrexian Totem. The ideal turn 1, can be a source of mana or a win condition, all in one adorable Phyrexian.
* 1 copy of Trinisphere. Prison element, which helps a lot our game-plan. Makes people mad.

Creature
1 copy of Nether Spirit. The only deck this fellow plays, I think. We can discard it for Liliana's ability or Smallpox effect. Normally an recurring blocker, sometimes a win condition as well.

Instants:
* 3 copies of Dark Ritual. I used to run 4 of these, but then I drew it late game and died. 3 copies showed to be the sweet spot.
* 3 copies of Fatal Push. The most recent addition. It kills Delvers, Thalias, Deathrite Shamans, Stoneforge Mystics, Snapcaster Mages and some more. Hell yeah.


Sideboard:

The sideboard is divided basically into:

Death & Taxes hate:
2x Dread of Night
2x Massacre
2x Engineered Plague

Combo/Sneak & Show hate
2x Extirpate
2x Pithing Needle

Delver/Goblins/Weenies hate
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
2x Ratchet Bomb

Dredge hate:
2x Tormod's Crypt


Hope you guys like it! If you have any question, feel free to ask!
Best regards.

The list looks very solid and many of your reasonings as well. I've been on 2 (if not 0) Sinkholes as well, and if/when I run Dark Rituals main, its's also usually 3, never want 4.
3 Smallpox is something I'd have to test myself first, but it seems legit - not getting 2 black hurts sometimes, just as saccing lands early game or discarding that Lili you'd like to keep for later. Only 3 Lili's seems few though :smile:

Your mana base including Ph Totem reminds me very much of Adachi Ryosuke's builds! Do you feel the Tabernacle is worth it? I bought one but cut it again after 2 tourneys as it often was just 'Rishadan port 1-2x' vs any non-elves/EmptyTheWarrens deck.

I was just about to sell it again to help pay for my wedding. :tongue: please tell me it's not great/necessary enough :tongue:

How has The Abyss worked out for you? That's the only card in your list apart from Crucible (just sold it :D) I don't have yet, but it's another very big investment whose necessity I wasn't sure about before.



Edit: forgot to add - isn't Nihil Spellbomb better in general than Tormod's? It doesn't allow for turn 1 discard + Crypt vs combo which might be relevant. But the cycling seems like it would make it be worth it vs decks like Czech to keep Snap/Command in check without losing card advantage.

[LeonardoWilhelm]

The list looks very solid and many of your reasonings as well. I've been on 2 (if not 0) Sinkholes as well, and if/when I run Dark Rituals main, its's also usually 3, never want 4.
3 Smallpox is something I'd have to test myself first, but it seems legit - not getting 2 black hurts sometimes, just as saccing lands early game or discarding that Lili you'd like to keep for later. Only 3 Lili's seems few though :smile:

Your mana base including Ph Totem reminds me very much of Adachi Ryosuke's builds! Do you feel the Tabernacle is worth it? I bought one but cut it again after 2 tourneys as it often was just 'Rishadan port 1-2x' vs any non-elves/EmptyTheWarrens deck.

I was just about to sell it again to help pay for my wedding. :tongue: please tell me it's not great/necessary enough :tongue:

How has The Abyss worked out for you? That's the only card in your list apart from Crucible (just sold it :D) I don't have yet, but it's another very big investment whose necessity I wasn't sure about before.



Edit: forgot to add - isn't Nihil Spellbomb better in general than Tormod's? It doesn't allow for turn 1 discard + Crypt vs combo which might be relevant. But the cycling seems like it would make it be worth it vs decks like Czech to keep Snap/Command in check without losing card advantage.




Hi there, mighty Fjaulnir!


I did cringe a little while reasoning about taking 1 'Liliana of the Veil' out, but it did work out, surprisingly. It helped a lot with the 'flow' of the deck, if that makes any sense. The 'Tabernacle' issue is highly discussed, and honestly, it is not that necessary, really. Don't get me wrong, it is indeed great, but you could change it easily for a copy of 'Karakas', which helps a lot as well. Sell it, buy a 'Karakas' and use the rest for your wedding (happy one, by the way. Best wishes).

'The Abyss' is just amazing, it is one of my favorite cards of all time, it can trully end games if resolved successfully. Just imagine the following scenario, where you kill that annoying turn 1 'Deathrite Shaman' and then cast 'Dark Ritual' -> 'The Abyss' on Turn 2. If it resolves, it most likely will end the game. I love it so much that I bought a playmat with it's art on it! (Search for: "mark's artist signature service and other elves and goblins" on Facebook, for anyone interested, they have lots of signed old art playmats for sale).

Regarding 'Tormod's Crypt', I still prefer that 0 mana cost over the cycling 'Nihil Spellbomb' offers, but it would also work similarly well.


Thanks a lot for such great questions!
Best regards.

[kombatkiwi]

Has anyone thought of directly porting the 8rack deck from modern
Example: Tom Ross list from September last year

Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (24)
15 Swamp
1 Marsh Flats
4 Mutavault
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Spells (32)
4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction
1 Dismember
3 Fatal Push
2 Funeral Charm
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
3 Wrench Mind

Obvious swaps would be to upgrade Mutavault into Factory and Wrench Mind into Hymn to Tourach (and maybe find space for Dark Ritual / Wasteland) but it's interesting that this version of the deck (4x Rack 4x Affliction) hardly seems to have had anybody test it or talk about it in Legacy even though it seems to have a reasonable following in modern.

Any thoughts?

I would probably try something like

4 Factory
4 Urborg
4 Wasteland
12 Swamp

4 Liliana
4 Affliction
4 Rack
4 Hymn
4 Smallpox
4 Ritual
4 Inquisition
2 Push
2 Innocent Blood
3 Ravens Crime
1 Netherspirit

In hindsight there should probably be a few copies of Thoughtseize in there but you get the idea

[Fjaulnir]

Hi there, mighty Fjaulnir!


I did cringe a little while reasoning about taking 1 'Liliana of the Veil' out, but it did work out, surprisingly. It helped a lot with the 'flow' of the deck, if that makes any sense. The 'Tabernacle' issue is highly discussed, and honestly, it is not that necessary, really. Don't get me wrong, it is indeed great, but you could change it easily for a copy of 'Karakas', which helps a lot as well. Sell it, buy a 'Karakas' and use the rest for your wedding (happy one, by the way. Best wishes).

'The Abyss' is just amazing, it is one of my favorite cards of all time, it can trully end games if resolved successfully. Just imagine the following scenario, where you kill that annoying turn 1 'Deathrite Shaman' and then cast 'Dark Ritual' -> 'The Abyss' on Turn 2. If it resolves, it most likely will end the game. I love it so much that I bought a playmat with it's art on it! (Search for: "mark's artist signature service and other elves and goblins" on Facebook, for anyone interested, they have lots of signed old art playmats for sale).

Regarding 'Tormod's Crypt', I still prefer that 0 mana cost over the cycling 'Nihil Spellbomb' offers, but it would also work similarly well.


Thanks a lot for such great questions!
Best regards.

A friend of mine has The Abyss though so I guess I might playtest it and just borrow it from him if I can (so I don't need to spend another €350 on 1 card), and if playtesting would indeed indicate it's better than just a 4th Liliana.

I do have Karakas in my Enchantress collection btw so I might try that :wink: it does sound weird in a BB-costed deck though, but I guess that's the same for Tabernacle. At least it makes mana without Urborg.
A Geier Reach Sanitarium could also be okay in this slot, being able to keep your opponents hellbent in their draw step with Chains, and to create some virtual card advantage with Crucible of Nether Spirit. Although putting cards in your opponents' yard is also risky in Legacy.


Another question: do you feel like a small number of fetchlands might do anything? Yesterday I ran a (totally different) list with 2 Polluted Deltas because I didn't have enough nice/matching basic Swamps :tongue: and also because of Tombstalker and Fatal Push; and I couldn't Fatally Push an opponent's Leovold for 3-4 turns because I never got to trigger Revolt.
The life loss (and being a bit deader to Blood Moon Stompy) are real though in this deck; but also with Crucible of Worlds it gives a nice grinding engine thinning your deck and getting a mana advantage in control mirrors. (and protects against Jace Fateseal killing you :wink:

So it's mainly a small % play that may sometimes be relevant in a positive way, and sometimes negatively affect you when you lose because of the -1 life or Blood Moon. Mhh.





Has anyone thought of directly porting the 8rack deck from modern
Example: Tom Ross list from September last year

I had been thinking about that recently as well, after hitting up this old list: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5868&d=234074&f=LE
Admittedly that's only 4-Rack though :wink: but at least I now finally have that list complete since yesterday with some sweet Antiquities Racks. I still need to playtest it tough and figure out how the Fetch + Sensei's D Top engine should be replaced (and whether any amount of fetches are still necessary for Tombstalker/a Fatal Push upgrade even without Top).
It does run some ground beaters though instead of the other 4 'Racks'/Afflictions. Rack redirects to PWs so I guess that's the better of the 2.

[LeonardoWilhelm]

A friend of mine has The Abyss though so I guess I might playtest it and just borrow it from him if I can (so I don't need to spend another €350 on 1 card), and if playtesting would indeed indicate it's better than just a 4th Liliana.

I do have Karakas in my Enchantress collection btw so I might try that :wink: it does sound weird in a BB-costed deck though, but I guess that's the same for Tabernacle. At least it makes mana without Urborg.
A Geier Reach Sanitarium could also be okay in this slot, being able to keep your opponents hellbent in their draw step with Chains, and to create some virtual card advantage with Crucible of Nether Spirit. Although putting cards in your opponents' yard is also risky in Legacy.


Another question: do you feel like a small number of fetchlands might do anything? Yesterday I ran a (totally different) list with 2 Polluted Deltas because I didn't have enough nice/matching basic Swamps :tongue: and also because of Tombstalker and Fatal Push; and I couldn't Fatally Push an opponent's Leovold for 3-4 turns because I never got to trigger Revolt.
The life loss (and being a bit deader to Blood Moon Stompy) are real though in this deck; but also with Crucible of Worlds it gives a nice grinding engine thinning your deck and getting a mana advantage in control mirrors. (and protects against Jace Fateseal killing you :wink:

So it's mainly a small % play that may sometimes be relevant in a positive way, and sometimes negatively affect you when you lose because of the -1 life or Blood Moon. Mhh.





Fjaunir;

You should definitely playtest 'The Abyss', I am sure you gonna like it. I must warn you though, people will get mad at you!
'Karakas' would be more mana efficient than 'Tabernacle', while keeping Thalias, Leovolds, Griselbands and Emrakuls at bay. It works really well, even naturally tapping for white mana, which we could use as colorless.

The idea of adding Fetches to trigger Fatal Push's revolt is pretty interesting, although I tend to use 'Fatal Push' to remove the most annoying and played 1 or 2 mana creatures ( Delver of Secrets, Deathrite Shaman, Tarmagoyf, Young Pyromancer, Snapcaster Mage ) while using 'Innocent Blood' and 'SmallPox' to deal with the rest of'em, since most likely the opponent won't have more than 1 or 2 creatures in play at the same time. Help me to think of more relevant creatures with converted mana cost bigger than 2, besides Leovold, then we could reason if adding Fetches would be cost-efficient or not. I can't think of any, honestly.

Slowly, our deck is becoming stronger, fellas! Let's Pox'em.


Best Regards;

[Hardcore]

For Rack Pox in Legacy this thread is worth studying;

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4300-Deck-Pox

[Fjaulnir]

Fjaunir;

You should definitely playtest 'The Abyss', I am sure you gonna like it. I must warn you though, people will get mad at you!
'Karakas' would be more mana efficient than 'Tabernacle', while keeping Thalias, Leovolds, Griselbands and Emrakuls at bay. It works really well, even naturally tapping for white mana, which we could use as colorless.

The idea of adding Fetches to trigger Fatal Push's revolt is pretty interesting, although I tend to use 'Fatal Push' to remove the most annoying and played 1 or 2 mana creatures ( Delver of Secrets, Deathrite Shaman, Tarmagoyf, Young Pyromancer, Snapcaster Mage ) while using 'Innocent Blood' and 'SmallPox' to deal with the rest of'em, since most likely the opponent won't have more than 1 or 2 creatures in play at the same time. Help me to think of more relevant creatures with converted mana cost bigger than 2, besides Leovold, then we could reason if adding Fetches would be cost-efficient or not. I can't think of any, honestly.

Slowly, our deck is becoming stronger, fellas! Let's Pox'em.


Best Regards;

Thought-Knot Seer, although Push is kinda weak against Chalice on 1 out of Eldrazi. Vendilion Clique, which isn't played *a lot* but most people who run it will sideboard it in against me and rightfully so. This deck has a lot of sorcery speed removal spells, so flashing in a Clique EOT and attack me/Liliana with it without having a way to kill it immediately, has lost me enough games.


Death and Taxes also runs some 3- and 4-drops these days, most of which are maybe not the best for Pushing (Recruiter, Palace Jailer), but Flickerwisp can also be annoying as a 3/1 flying attacker.

[LeonardoWilhelm]

Thought-Knot Seer, although Push is kinda weak against Chalice on 1 out of Eldrazi. Vendilion Clique, which isn't played *a lot* but most people who run it will sideboard it in against me and rightfully so. This deck has a lot of sorcery speed removal spells, so flashing in a Clique EOT and attack me/Liliana with it without having a way to kill it immediately, has lost me enough games.


Death and Taxes also runs some 3- and 4-drops these days, most of which are maybe not the best for Pushing (Recruiter, Palace Jailer), but Flickerwisp can also be annoying as a 3/1 flying attacker.


Oh, Eldrazi. I do hate them, a lot.

I will give this idea a shot. The drawback is not that big and could potentially help us in tight situations. Our conversation also made me think with more care about 'Karakas', I think I will put a copy on the sideboard, heck, maybe even in the mainboard (replacing a copy of 'Cabal Pit', for instance), let's see how it behaves.

I find it amazing how our deck is like a 'sorcery-speed control deck", don't you think?


Once again, thanks a lot for your insights!
Best regards.

[Fjaulnir]

Oh, Eldrazi. I do hate them, a lot.

I will give this idea a shot. The drawback is not that big and could potentially help us in tight situations. Our conversation also made me think with more care about 'Karakas', I think I will put a copy on the sideboard, heck, maybe even in the mainboard (replacing a copy of 'Cabal Pit', for instance), let's see how it behaves.

I find it amazing how our deck is like a 'sorcery-speed control deck", don't you think?


Once again, thanks a lot for your insights!
Best regards.

I think Cabal Pit could still work; it would actually also work better with Fetchlands, making it easier to have threshold.

EDIT: only now I see you originally played 2 Cabal Pits. Yeah I think 1 is probably enough, otherwise there will be a lot of damage being dealt to ourselves^^

[kombatkiwi]

Rack redirects to PWs so I guess that's the better of the 2.

In a vacuum yes but it also dies more easily (Kolaghans Command / Ancient Grudge)

The reason why I like the Rack version is the following:
- You have 8 unblockable Delver of Secrets so you are more likely to avoid the canonical Pox problem of letting your opponent topdeck into a victory, because you just clock them much faster
- Pox is an attrition deck that is trying to play a game where both players have as few resources as possible, so it makes way more sense to have win conditions that only cost 1 mana and not things like Ob Nixilis or Nether Void or whatever

The 4 Raven's Crime is also very interesting, my intuition is not to play so many copies of this card because the retrace ability is redundant in multiples but it highlights the importance of being able to trade excess lands for the opponent's resources (which you are more willing to do in this version because you don't have any expensive winconditions)

[malfie13]

Hi, all. Im on the MUD thread more than here, but ive been a bg pox player since just before the dig through omniscience era. I thought id post my most recent list for consideration. Bg has slightly better matches vs a lot of bad mono black matches, and it might be cool for you all to have something to throw darts at. If you take out a couple of cards, of course the deck is less expensive, but also less effective. Sadly, bg pox is about as expensive as mono black, in some builds even more. Best.

Deck: Legacy Loam Pox 1-23-18.dec

Counts : 61 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:1
1 Nether Spirit

Artifacts:3
3 Mox Diamond

Sorceries:13
1 Raven's Crime
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Worm Harvest

Instants:10
3 Crop Rotation
2 Entomb
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict

Enchantments:4
2 Exploration
2 Sylvan Library

Others:3
3 Liliana of the Veil

Lands:27
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
1 Necroplasm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Cursed Totem
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Coffin Purge
2 Krosan Grip
1 Drop of Honey
1 Bitterblossom
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Engineered Plague
1 The Abyss

Other cards to consider include collective brutality, and mirri's guile. I also am giving serious consideration to a second bog in the board instead of coffin purge.

[non-inflammable]

Other cards to consider include collective brutality, and mirri's guile. I also am giving serious consideration to a second bog in the board instead of coffin purge.

I like your list, it's "landsy". If I made it, I'd go with Mirri's Guile over Sylvan Library just to have more first turn plays...

[Fjaulnir]

In a vacuum yes but it also dies more easily (Kolaghans Command / Ancient Grudge)

The reason why I like the Rack version is the following:
- You have 8 unblockable Delver of Secrets so you are more likely to avoid the canonical Pox problem of letting your opponent topdeck into a victory, because you just clock them much faster
- Pox is an attrition deck that is trying to play a game where both players have as few resources as possible, so it makes way more sense to have win conditions that only cost 1 mana and not things like Ob Nixilis or Nether Void or whatever

The 4 Raven's Crime is also very interesting, my intuition is not to play so many copies of this card because the retrace ability is redundant in multiples but it highlights the importance of being able to trade excess lands for the opponent's resources (which you are more willing to do in this version because you don't have any expensive winconditions)

Btw I totally forgot about seeing this list a while ago, might give you some inspiration as well: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17879&d=310803&f=LE

[kombatkiwi]

Btw I totally forgot about seeing this list a while ago, might give you some inspiration as well: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17879&d=310803&f=LE

Yep something like that would be good
I'm not convinced Bob is good as the only creature in a Smallpox deck and everything else is basically what I suggested, sans Ritual, and I agree that Ritual might be wrong in an attrition deck.

The funniest thing to me about that list is 4x Mutavault and 0x Mishra's Factory
A) There's no tribal synergy so Mishra's Factory is just a strict upgrade (unless you're really scared of artifact destruction)
B) There's Engineered Plague in the sideboard which gives Mutavault -1/-1 whether you name Elf or Goblin or Human or anything
C) You can't even say it's for budget reasons because Factory is like $1 (and Mutavault is $15-20)

[Fjaulnir]

It's probably just a modern player (modern 8rack plays mutavault) that either didnt know Mishra/Mishra being better/didnt have Mishra available in time in his collection?

[kombatkiwi]

It's probably just a modern player (modern 8rack plays mutavault) that either didnt know Mishra/Mishra being better/didnt have Mishra available in time in his collection?

I hope so haha
Somehow he was able to find Engineered Plague, Hymn to Tourach etc but that's the only explanation that makes sense

[ntropy]

The funniest thing to me about that list is 4x Mutavault and 0x Mishra's Factory
A) There's no tribal synergy so Mishra's Factory is just a strict upgrade (unless you're really scared of artifact destruction)
B) There's Engineered Plague in the sideboard which gives Mutavault -1/-1 whether you name Elf or Goblin or Human or anything
C) You can't even say it's for budget reasons because Factory is like $1 (and Mutavault is $15-20)

Mutavault is marginally better against Kolaghan's Command....but not enough that I would run it over Factories.

[LeonardoWilhelm]

Hey, e-people;

Just an update on the idea I had about using 'Karakas' mainboard. It worked.
I played a lot of rounds against 'Death & Taxes' and 'Sneak & Show' during the last weekend and 'Karakas' helped in numerous times, bouncing 'Thalia', 'Griselbrand' and 'Emrakul'. It also helped with mana, so I think the addition turned out great.

I will remove a copy of 'Cabal Pit' to give 'Karakas' it's place.


Speaking of which, do you guys have a particular game-plan against top tier decks like 'Death & Taxes' and 'Sneak & Show' ? I tend to 'go with the flow', usually.

[Mr. Safety]

Death and Taxes: Engineered Plague (name humans), Toxic Deluge

Sneak and Show: Ensnaring Bridge, Pithing Needle (name Griselbrand or Sneak Attack), Fleshbag Marauder, Diabolic Edict. Generally Liliana of the Veil and targeted discard do very well against this deck in the main. Post-board it gets even better. Innocent Blood is classic tech.

[ntropy]

Hey, e-people;

Just an update on the idea I had about using 'Karakas' mainboard. It worked.
I played a lot of rounds against 'Death & Taxes' and 'Sneak & Show' during the last weekend and 'Karakas' helped in numerous times, bouncing 'Thalia', 'Griselbrand' and 'Emrakul'. It also helped with mana, so I think the addition turned out great.

I will remove a copy of 'Cabal Pit' to give 'Karakas' it's place.


Speaking of which, do you guys have a particular game-plan against top tier decks like 'Death & Taxes' and 'Sneak & Show' ? I tend to 'go with the flow', usually.

I've used Karakas out of the board in Loam Pox. I brought in a singleon Sylvan Scrying to find it or a wasteland or a factory as well. It was decent tech vs. Sneak and Show. (this was before Thespian's Stage was printed, I suppose it has even more application now.

My mainboard is set-up to deal with Death and Taxes -
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Pithing Needle
For Sneak and Show, I cut the Deluges, Bombs, and Cursed Scroll for 3 Tombstalker and 3 Collective Brutality to increase the clock and the hand disruption.

[OmniStrata]

Hey, e-people;

Just an update on the idea I had about using 'Karakas' mainboard. It worked.
I played a lot of rounds against 'Death & Taxes' and 'Sneak & Show' during the last weekend and 'Karakas' helped in numerous times, bouncing 'Thalia', 'Griselbrand' and 'Emrakul'. It also helped with mana, so I think the addition turned out great.

I will remove a copy of 'Cabal Pit' to give 'Karakas' it's place.


Speaking of which, do you guys have a particular game-plan against top tier decks like 'Death & Taxes' and 'Sneak & Show' ? I tend to 'go with the flow', usually.

D&T: will scoop to Night of Souls' Betrayal, Dread of Night if speed is an issue
Sneak Show - Pithing Needle and Ensnaring Bridge. Once the bridge is out I'd go with Bontu's last Reckoning over Deluge That maindeck Meekstone post was epic.

[Fjaulnir]

It seems like Brazil is the place to be if you like Pox - after months of not really any results getting published, we get *two* finishes (1 Pox 1 4-Rack) from 1 tournament in Brazil at once :wink:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18338&d=313797&f=LE

[Cybinary]

Hello Guys, I'm new to the forum but been playing Mono-B pox for a few years now with limited success. I am working on testing several different sideboard packages on MTGO to figure out what works best for my meta. I see the usual D&T, Sneak&Show, Lands, Delver, 4c, and TES/ANT in my meta (Dallas/FtWorth).

I have a few questions for the group first:

I looked through several pages of the thread but didn't see many reports from MTGO Leagues. Would reports from League matches be considered flooding the thread with too much info? I would like to post my lists & SBs with my matchups on the thread and get feedback on what worked and what didn't, but I don't want to get anyone upset.
Also, are there any current streamers who play pox regularly? I would like to watch more game just to see other lines of play that I haven't considered before.

[Mr. Safety]

1) Post away, it will only help increase interest and conversation about Pox. It's one of the most popular 'budget' decks in Legacy, people love tweaking it and talking shop.
2) Reid Duke has several videos on YouTube, I recommend watching any and all of them. Pox doesn't change much over time, maybe a new card tested here and there (Waste Not, Bontu's Last Reckoning), but it hasn't changed fundamentally in years. Watch everything you can get a hold of!

[kombatkiwi]

Hello Guys, I'm new to the forum but been playing Mono-B pox for a few years now with limited success. I am working on testing several different sideboard packages on MTGO to figure out what works best for my meta. I see the usual D&T, Sneak&Show, Lands, Delver, 4c, and TES/ANT in my meta (Dallas/FtWorth).

I have a few questions for the group first:

I looked through several pages of the thread but didn't see many reports from MTGO Leagues. Would reports from League matches be considered flooding the thread with too much info? I would like to post my lists & SBs with my matchups on the thread and get feedback on what worked and what didn't, but I don't want to get anyone upset.
Also, are there any current streamers who play pox regularly? I would like to watch more game just to see other lines of play that I haven't considered before.


Actual results and discussion from leagues is great, the problem with half of the tier 2 deck threads is that people post suggestions and lists non-stop but nobody actually tests anything

(Yes I'm often guilty of this, I'm not criticising anyone for theorycrafting but some actual data would be nice too)

[Cybinary]

Awesome, Thanks guys. I have been working on building up a good pool of cards I see people suggest on here for SBs so as I go through and test different packages Ill be sure to post my results here and see what you think.

[ClimbGneiss]

Hey all:

I'm going to be trying out BW pox in Legacy. First time running the white splash since the days of UR delver with Treasure Cruise. The deck obviously got crushed by UR delver, and subsequently Omniscience with Dig Through Time, but it was surprisingly effective otherwise. My fondest memory was the "perfect victory" I had versus an Elves opponent.

Anyway, it's been a couple years, so I was obviously able to update the list with some new toys and the list also lost it's primo filtering tool: Sensei's Divining Top.

Without further ado:

BW Smallpox:
Win Conditions:

3 Lingering Souls
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Spirit
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
=6

Discard:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Collective Brutality
=8

Removal:
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Fatal Push
2 Toxic Deluge
=8

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Skeletal Scrying
=5

Resource Denial
4 Smallpox
3 Vindicate
2 Sinkhole
=9

Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Fetid Heath
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Cabal Pit
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Plains
=24

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Pithing Needle
2 Lost Legacy
1 Null Rod
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Bitterblossom
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Humility


So, I have a few questions and a few comments:
1. What are all of your thoughts on the mana base? In a deck with some many ways of destroying a land, it feels like an auto-include to run Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale; however, with all of the token generators in the 75, it's a bit of nonbo. I never owned a Tabernacle when I ran previous iterations of the deck, so I can't tell you whether or not it comes up in reality, but in goldfishing, it does come up somewhat often.
2. Are there too many white sources? I feel like Karakas is necessary to give us any possible chance of winning game 1s versus several decks. Should there be more Flagstones of Trokair to break parity? Is Fetid Heath as useful as I think it will be with all of non-black sources in the deck? We HAVE to run a Plains, right? To give us any chance whatsoever against a resolve Blood Moon.
3. Toxic Deluge. Are 2 main deck necessary? Should this be a Bontu's Last Reckoning? I've never used this card. All my Pox builds always had access to Toxic Deluge and I've been off the deck while all of you have been experimenting with this new tool
4. The sideboard: I feel like I should be running at least 1, if not 2, Disenchant. Is the 2nd copy of Pithing Needle unnecessary? Are the 2 Lost Legacy better served being Containment Priest and Ethersworn Canonist or two other combo hate cards? I'm pretty open to suggestion in the sideboard. Perhaps, the 3rd surgical can be some other overlapping hate card? (Nihil Spellbomb, Relic of Progenitus, 1 x Leyline of the Void, Containment Priest, etc.)

My comments:
1. Skeletal Scrying, in goldfishing and in theory, seems like it will be phenomenal. Obviously, in a top deck war, it's a verrryyy live draw. It's also decent as saving your remaining copies of Lingering Souls versus a Surgical Extraction.
2. Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, Lingering Souls, and sideboard Bitterblossom are actually a very fast clock. I can tell you this from actually casting these cards in two different decks: the previous iteration of this list, and from running them in Esper Deathblade/Esper Stoneblade.



Looking for to seeing your comments.

[Hardcore]

With the mana to cast it you should definitely try Kaya, ghost assassin . Gurmag Angler would also be nice.
Or you could run Stoneforge mystic. Some equipment to boost the tokens would be nice.

I would put tabernacle in the sideboard. It is useful against decks that make tokens, elves and goblins, but Delver or Eldrazi won't be bothered much.ex

I would keep the second needle. Since you play control you will want it against Aether Vials, planeswalkers, thespian stage etc.

[LeonardoWilhelm]

It seems like Brazil is the place to be if you like Pox - after months of not really any results getting published, we get *two* finishes (1 Pox 1 4-Rack) from 1 tournament in Brazil at once :wink:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18338&d=313797&f=LE


Há;

Yep, people around here do not know how to play against Pox, they got used to the generic Delver and Combo/Unfair decks. That is the deck's main advantage, IMHO; It's "fringeness".
Although, Pox is a *RARE* thing to see, I've only met two other Pox players across the country.

Slowly but surely we will assure our spot at Top 8's!

[ClimbGneiss]

With the mana to cast it you should definitely try Kaya, ghost assassin . Gurmag Angler would also be nice.
Or you could run Stoneforge mystic. Some equipment to boost the tokens would be nice.

I would put tabernacle in the sideboard. It is useful against decks that make tokens, elves and goblins, but Delver or Eldrazi won't be bothered much.ex

I would keep the second needle. Since you play control you will want it against Aether Vials, planeswalkers, thespian stage etc.

I think I may do the clean swap of Bitterblossom and Tabernacle. Although, that would put me down to 23 "lands", Tabernacle is so rarely a mana source. I've considered Kaya, Ghost Assassin, Liliana the Last Hope, and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar as additional cards. I'm not the biggest fan of Angler or Tombstalker in Pox builds, buy I have thought about Stoneforge.
Ultimately, I lean toward more walkers because they are harder to answer, dodge smallpox, and, in the case of Gideon, facilitate the token gameplan. Id be tempted to run kaya or gideon sideboard because they are so much better vs midrange and control than aggro/combo.

[Mr. Safety]

Há;

Yep, people around here do not know how to play against Pox, they got used to the generic Delver and Combo/Unfair decks. That is the deck's main advantage, IMHO; It's "fringeness".
Although, Pox is a *RARE* thing to see, I've only met two other Pox players across the country.

Slowly but surely we will assure our spot at Top 8's!

Ha! I have at least 3 pox players in my little 20 man local scene!

Regarding white-splashed Pox: Bloodghast, Lingering Souls, Cabal Therapy, full sets all, GG.

[kombatkiwi]

After some brief testing with the 8-Rack style list I think Dark Ritual is not where you want to be, a card that doesn't achieve resource parity seems very poor for this strategy. The only use for it is for fast Liliana, which isn't particularly consistent and might not be powerful enough to be worth it. Without converting Ritual into Liliana you're basically just 2-for-1ing yourself by casting Ritual and I'm not sure that this is something that the deck needs to be doing, especially with 8x other cards that don't interact at all and only do damage.

I do think that 4 Rack 4 Affliction is a good place to start a list from. Rack + Raven's Crime does seem like a more consistent approach than playing expensive Planeswalkers. Smallpox in a deck with 4-Drops and nothing like Loam to grind advantage back seems like a very unreliable gameplan.

The actual card Pox is probably better in this version of the deck too, because the burst of lifeloss is more relevant when The Rack is your wincondition, but I still don't think that you can afford to play more than one or two copies.

I am still testing Arguel's Blood Fast, which is okay, but not great. The interaction with the Temple and Nether Spirit is quite powerful in matchups where your opponent's have burn spells, and having extra free cards is nice, but it's not a very efficient way to gain resources. I do think the deck does want some kind of manasink for turns where you just e.g play a land and plus Liliana but it's likely the case that Cursed Scroll is the best option

[Hardcore]

I would like three Ratchet bombs against chalice of the void.
Also four Poxes. Sure sometimes you discard them to liliana or sp, other times you discard sp and Lili to Pox. That redundancy four copies gives you is nice to have however.

Note sure about the Mishra's Factory. If you are looking for lands sinks they fit the bill however. I would not go to cursed scroll for that; they make you play defensively ie controlish. Aggression is better in a rack deck.


4 Bloodghast
3 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Collective Brutality
3 Raven’s Crime
1 Reanimate
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Ratchet Bomb

4 Mishra’s Factory
10 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Plague
2 Darkblast

[LeonardoWilhelm]

Hi there, guys;

There was a Legacy tournament yesterday at my LGS and I want to share with you how it went, give brief descriptions of the matches and bring in some thoughts I would like to discuss. My metagame is made of a mixture of some insanely unfair decks ('Ops, all spells', 'OmniTell', 'ANT') and lots of Death & Taxes, so it's really broad, making near to impossible to focus in one type of strategy to fight against. We agreed on not using sideboards, just to see how the decks would behave by themselves.

With that said, I will describe what happened in each game:

Match #1 -- 'OmniTell': LOSS 2-0
He did combo out on first turn on both games. Nothing I could do.

Match #2 -- 'Grixis Delver': WON 2-0
He had the most 'rounded' list I've ever seen, thus the games took a LONG time. On both games I created the ideal environment, stabilized the board, imprizoned him and won by tackling him with 'Mishra's Factories' and 'Cursed Scroll'. On the first game I destroyed all his lands, Trinisphered and he never got back from it. Second game I destroyed all his 'Delvers' and 'Deathrite Shamans' and had 'The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale' on the board turn two, which delayed his game plan, while I disrupted his hand to oblivion.

Match #3 -- 'Death and Taxes': WON 2-1
Death & Taxes is the most interactive deck I know, besides Pox, which always make the games tricky. First game I couldn't find 'Pithing Needle' and he casted 'Aether Vial' on turn 1, Thalia on turn 2 and carried curving beautifully. My draws were horrendous, so I conceded. On games two I was able
to cast 'Pithing Needle' and trinisphered on turn 2, turn 4 I casted 'The Abyss'. He conceded in fear. Game three I casted two 'Pithing Needle' and a Nether Void, he conceded without having a single permanent in play.

Match #4 -- 'Sneak & Show': WON 2-0
On both games I destroyed all his lands with the help of 'Crucible of Worlds', recurring 'Wasteland' infinitely. I won by bashing him with 'Cursed Scroll' for 2 damage every turn. Agonizing.


With all that in mind, I must say that I am impressed, actually everybody were. I think I finally found a good balance for the deck, it is consistent and can control/imprizon rather easily. The highlights would be:
-The resource pool that 'Crucible of World' gives us;
- Trinisphere, Nether Void and 'The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale' as taxing effects that really slow down our opponent, but have less of an impact on us (creating an assimetric effect)
- The devastating effect 'The Abyss' brings. It is the most amazing card ever.
- Fatal Push. Period.
- Sinkhole. It is still relevant, contrary on what I've thought. It won me a game when I sinkholed an important 'Island'. Two copies is the sweetest of sweet spots.

Now, with that said, I would like to propose a question for you guys, it is something I've been thinking lately and that is; Is 'Esnaring Bridge' worth a slot? I see lots of Pox lists using it. Does it work well?


Well, I hope some of the information in here can be useful for you. If you have any questions or if you want me to describe one of the games in greater detail, let me know. Have a great weekend.

Best regards.

[Mr. Safety]

I would like three Ratchet bombs against chalice of the void.
Also four Poxes. Sure sometimes you discard them to liliana or sp, other times you discard sp and Lili to Pox. That redundancy four copies gives you is nice to have however.

Note sure about the Mishra's Factory. If you are looking for lands sinks they fit the bill however. I would not go to cursed scroll for that; they make you play defensively ie controlish. Aggression is better in a rack deck.


4 Bloodghast
3 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Collective Brutality
3 Raven’s Crime
1 Reanimate
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Ratchet Bomb

4 Mishra’s Factory
10 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Plague
2 Darkblast


Four bloodghast and no Cabal Therapy? Dude, I can't even...

[Hardcore]

Good job there!

I notice you run a 'classic' list with rituals. That should make it easier for you to put in an Ensnaring Bridge should you choose to do so. They are mainly good tech vs decks that rely much on big creatures for the win. Typically Griselbrand and Eldrazis. However also dudes like knight of the reliquary, Tarmogoyf, Gurmag Angler and batterskull are stopped by the bridge. To mention a few.
I suppose it would be viable against any deck that wins by creatures; like elves, goblins and Merfolk. Note that you would also stop your own creatures. If using the bridge in suggest diversifying your win conditions. You could try the rack, or
Ob Nixilis?

You mentioned Sinkhole being good. There is a simple reason for that, I think. That card needs wasteland and Crucible to be at its best, have i noticed. That is just what classic Pox your list, typically runs!
On its own the card is underwhelming.

[Hardcore]

Four bloodghast and no Cabal Therapy? Dude, I can't even...
You are right. For turn two boarding in therapies from side would be nice. Replacing the Inquisition in my list.

[Cybinary]

Hello Again everyone. Here is my current starting point for my future testing of Mono-B Pox. Below is the current list i have build in both paper and MTGO, I am also going to list all the cards I am considering as I grid some League's over the next few weeks on MTGO.

PAPER LIST:
4 Liliana of the Veil (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Liliana of the Veil)
2 Liliana, the Last Hope (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Liliana, the Last Hope)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Inquisition of Kozilek)
3 Smallpox (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Smallpox)
4 Hymn to Tourach (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Hymn to Tourach)
4 Dark Ritual (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Dark Ritual)
4 Innocent Blood (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Innocent Blood)
3 Cursed Scroll (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Cursed Scroll)
2 Pithing Needle (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Pithing Needle)
1 Crucible of Worlds (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Crucible of Worlds)
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Night of Souls' Betrayal)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Chains of Mephistopheles)
1 The Abyss (http://deckbox.org/mtg/The Abyss)
1 Beseech the Queen (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Beseech the Queen)
1 Nether Spirit (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Nether Spirit)
11 Swamp (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Swamp)
3 Wasteland (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Wasteland)
4 Mishra's Factory (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mishra's Factory)
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth)
1 Bojuka Bog (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Bojuka Bog)
1 Maze of Ith (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Maze of Ith)

SideBoard:
3 Leyline of the Void (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline of the Void)
1 Helm of Command (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Helm of Command)
2 Toxic Deluge (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Toxic Deluge)
1 Engineered Explosives (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Engineered Explosives)
2 Collective Brutality (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Collective Brutality)
2 Surgical Extraction (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical Extraction)
1 Tombstalker (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Tombstalker)
1 Ensnaring Bridge (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ensnaring Bridge)
1 Nether Void (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Nether Void)
1 Beseech The Queen (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Beseech The Queen)

LANDS TO CONSIDER:
Blighted Fen (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Blighted Fen) - 4B is a lot for a edict effect, probably remove due to high cost & the fact it doesn't generate B without Urborg
Cabal Pit (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Cabal Pit) - I have seen this in several list, not sure how relevant it is. I can't remember the last time I hit Threshold in a game. Will be testing with it
Field Of Ruin (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Field Of Ruin) - It saw a lot of play in the PT over the weekend in Modern. Is it good enough for us? Land destruction that lets us go get a land as well for 2. Seems good, is it worth diluting our deck with more non-black source?

ARTIFACTS TO CONSIDER:
Meekstone (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Meekstone) - Not sure how good it is, I will toss a few into my sideboard and see how many times it helps
Ratchet Bomb (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ratchet Bomb) - Better than Engineered Explosives? Not sure, EE can get around a Chalice on 2, but RB can be up-ticked to the desired target. I plan on testing between these two for the optimal choice
Sorcerous Spyglass (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sorcerous Spyglass) - Not sold on this, I like Pithing Needle better but being able to look first may help. Will test between the two.
Phyrexian Totem (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Phyrexian Totem) - I have talked with a few players who swear by this guy, I haven't had a game where he made any difference. I will keep testing with him.
Helm of Obedience (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Helm of Obedience) - I currently have one of these in my SB for the combo with LotV, haven't been able to win with the combo so I may pull it. We'll see...

OTHER CARDS:
Vengeful Pharaoh (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Vengeful Pharaoh) - I have heard a few reports of this doing good work, If I bring it in I feel like we need to pull Nether Spirit since they seem to be counter-productive together.
Ob Nixilis Reignited (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ob Nixilis Reignited) - I am actually excited to try this guy out, I played him in standard a while back and he does good work.
Massacre (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Massacre) - Seems great against DnT, I plan on trying this out quiet a bit!
Lost Legacy (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Lost Legacy) - Everytime I look at this card I keep thinking Surgical just seems better. Its cheaper, faster, but it requires the card to be in the yard. Ehh, Ill try it.
Dystopia (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Dystopia) - Not sure if this is a great card or not, the cumulative upkeep seems steep and since Elves isn't that big a deck it seems unnecessary.
Damnation (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Damnation) - Does our deck need a board wipe? We'll see...
Bontu's Last Reckoning (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Bontu's Last Reckoning) - How about a board wipe for one Dark Ritual? Seems good
Engineered Plague (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Engineered Plague) - The guy who introduced me to pox several years ago swore by this card, I have found Toxic Deluge to be better so far.
Waste Not (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Waste Not) - I have done limited testing with this card in paper at a SCG Open with no success. Ill give it a whirl on MTGO
Bitterblossom (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Bitterblossom) - Another card I am looking forward to testing, several people have reported good success with it!
Thoughtseize (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Thoughtseize) - I feel like IoK is a better choice, the lift loss with this card is very relevant.
Fatal Push (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Fatal Push) - I have not run this yet, I feel Innocent Blood is better. I will try both
Extirpate (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Extirpate) - Another option besides Surgical...
Duress (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Duress) - The worse of the 1 CNC discards (IMHO)...
Dread of Night (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Dread of Night) - Seems like another good card for DnT/Stoneblade decks, will try it out and see how many times its relevant

Ok, If I have missed something that I should include in my testing please let me know.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Your list is interesting, I like the toolbox + Beseech

Oddities are only 3x wasteland - what is your thinking on not running the full 4? Also I might go down to 1x Needle and put in an Ensnaring Bridge

For myself, I have been testing 3x Bridge in the MD (otherwise fairly standard list; nothing too crazy, though no Abyss and I run 2x Sinkhole). In my 90% fair deck meta I have found it to be quite good. Some decks straight lose to it game 1, and it causes problems for a lot of others. On its own it needs backup to be strong, however, and it can slow down Factory beats. I'm still testing it out, but so far I quite like it.

[Cybinary]

Your list is interesting, I like the toolbox + Beseech

Oddities are only 3x wasteland - what is your thinking on not running the full 4? Also I might go down to 1x Needle and put in an Ensnaring Bridge

For myself, I have been testing 3x Bridge in the MD (otherwise fairly standard list; nothing too crazy, though no Abyss and I run 2x Sinkhole). In my 90% fair deck meta I have found it to be quite good. Some decks straight lose to it game 1, and it causes problems for a lot of others. On its own it needs backup to be strong, however, and it can slow down Factory beats. I'm still testing it out, but so far I quite like it.

:laugh: There is a funny story behind the 3 Wastelands; A few weeks ago I was at a SCG Open and commissioned an artist to do a borderless extension on one of my wastelands and then at GP Houston I finally found a good deal on a Abyss so I picked it up. During this window I also had decided to add the 2 Beseech's (1 MB, 1 SB) just to see if having a tutor to grab lock pieces would help. My altered Wasteland is on its way back so I will probably try and find room for it again in the 60. May drop an Urborg for it, but the problem is I want to make room for a single Geiger Reach to combo with the Chains also. Need to tinker with the mana base and see if I can afford to drop another swamp as well. :smile:

EDIT: I also like Bridge, it does seem to help us grind out games. The problem (as you noted) is it slows down our Factory's/Spirit's as well. The few times it has helped by stalling out the game I could never close them out with Scroll before the Bridge got K.Commanded and then I got run over by dudes.

[ghostfire86]

So this is the list that I ran 2-15-2018 at my local LGS:

Mainboard:
3x Bitterblossom
1x Cursed Scroll
4x Dark Ritual
4x Fatal Push
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Innocent Blood
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Liliana of the Veil
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
11x Swamp
1x The Abyss
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2x Toxic Deluge
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Wasteland

Sideboard:
2x Chains of Mephistopheles
2x Engineered Plague
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Leyline of the Void
3x Pithing Needle
2x Trinisphere

This build was an attempt to create an aggressive portfolio while maintaining usable resources. Honestly I was disappointed in its performance, so I’ll be changing some of it up again for retesting.

Game 1: UW Stoneblade 0-2 with focus on Batterskull, Jace, the mind sculptor, and Gideon of the trials
So the first hand was a horrid flop with bad draws all the way to my death. Round two i sides in Chains of Mephistopheles, pithing needle, and Ensnaring bridge. No matter the build, this has been the worst match up for Pox in my experience.

Game 2: Grixis Delver 2-1
First hand I won due to a flood on his side which also didn’t present enough for me to recognize his build to side properly for game 2. Game 2 he took with an early Delver. I sided ensnaring bridge, trinisphere, and engineered plague for an easy win. Grixis Delver offered very little recovery or protection from a Pox assault due to its reliance on hand size and casting multiple spells per turn giving Pox the edge.

Game 3: Grixis Delver 2-0
Easy win with quick identification of the deck and side boarding.

Game 4: Eldrazi Aggro 1-2
This was the game that was by far the most fun, but should have been a wining sweep. The first game I was able to take the win and looking at my sideboard I could only decide to use ensaring bridge. Second game he managed to overrun my board quickly but the finisher was walking ballista that I couldn’t protect myself from. The third game was the joy of the evening with the abyss and followed by liliana of the veil. I managed to control his board state but he had managed to drop me to 4 life before I stabilized. I then pulled not a single mishras’ factory until I was almost decked. Bitterblossom was of no help due to the life lose and I never once played Toxic Deludge during the whole tournament.

I’ve been looking for a more efficient wincon but no such luck yet. I’ve alredy played several versions from Pure to multiple rogue versions, but haven’t found one that can be versatile enough to beat UW Stoneblade which is honestly what I hold my results towards in relation to Pox effectiveness as it remains the worst match up I’ve ever experienced over the years playing Pox.

[Hardcore]

I hate Stoneblade too, but Miracles is equally bad. The combination of counters and deadly threats are superior to our game plan, and I am not sure what to do.

[ghostfire86]

Hopefully when we hit Dominaria we will get to see some old school magic come back for resource denial or a better wincon option.

[mykatdied]

I am a big fan of Dread of Night and Night of Souls' Betrayal against blade and miracles/mentor. cursed scroll does work there as well

[ghostfire86]

I am a big fan of Dread of Night and Night of Souls' Betrayal against blade and miracles/mentor. cursed scroll does work there as well

dread of night and night of souls’ betrayal does little to control either Stoneblade or Miracles unless your running multiples. Secondly night of souls’ betrayal is commonly only ran as a 1 of due to cost and it’s legendary status.

cursed scroll can manage a few key pieces but not their wincons which are often untouchable for us. Either way we get screwed and personally I don’t think cursed scroll is worth it any more.

[Mr. Safety]

I am a big fan of Dread of Night and Night of Souls' Betrayal against blade and miracles/mentor. cursed scroll does work there as well

Toxic Deluge is miles better than both, and if you want to get a stacking effect then Engineered Plague is hard to beat. Miracles shrugs off both of those and wins with Jace or 3/3 angels.

The best way to beat miracles is Thoughtseize into Hymn into Liliana. Wasteland is largely ineffective and Smallpox is only good if you've already gotten a jump start with TS/Hymn. Maindeck Ratchet Bomb is good against 4/4 tokens but us too slow against Jace. Sideboarding Needles is important. Blade decks are a little less susceptible to the discard because they can just top deck Batterskull or SFM, and if they play Lingering Souls like Esper blade you're actually in trouble. Lingering Souls is literally one of the best cards against Pox. Again, Ratchet Bomb does a ton of work here. Night OSB is fine as a 1-of, but Dread of Night is too narrow to be considered. Toxic Deluge also deals with Lingering Souls and also deals with Elves, Death and Taxes, Young Pyromancer swarms, and lots of other stuff.

As far as more efficient win-cons go, I have a friend at the LGS that plays Pox regularly and plays 4x Tombstalker. Extras are discarded, and playing them out is easy. It's a fast, evasive clock.

[LeonardoWilhelm]

We should get together at 'Magic Workstation' to practice playing against those decks.

[ghostfire86]

Toxic Deluge is miles better than both, and if you want to get a stacking effect then Engineered Plague is hard to beat. Miracles shrugs off both of those and wins with Jace or 3/3 angels.

The best way to beat miracles is Thoughtseize into Hymn into Liliana. Wasteland is largely ineffective and Smallpox is only good if you've already gotten a jump start with TS/Hymn. Maindeck Ratchet Bomb is good against 4/4 tokens but us too slow against Jace. Sideboarding Needles is important. Blade decks are a little less susceptible to the discard because they can just top deck Batterskull or SFM, and if they play Lingering Souls like Esper blade you're actually in trouble. Lingering Souls is literally one of the best cards against Pox. Again, Ratchet Bomb does a ton of work here. Night OSB is fine as a 1-of, but Dread of Night is too narrow to be considered. Toxic Deluge also deals with Lingering Souls and also deals with Elves, Death and Taxes, Young Pyromancer swarms, and lots of other stuff.

As far as more efficient win-cons go, I have a friend at the LGS that plays Pox regularly and plays 4x Tombstalker. Extras are discarded, and playing them out is easy. It's a fast, evasive clock.

If the reality were just that simple Pox would already be placing higher on the charts, but sadly it’s not.

[Erdvermampfa]

If the reality were just that simple Pox would already be placing higher on the charts, but sadly it’s not.

The actual reason for this is that black and pretty much every other color besides blue lacks efficient card selection which gives every nonblue deck a fundamental disadvantage, especially now that Top is banned. Banning Top has hurt nonblue decks more than it has hurt Miracles which has just replaced it with Portent while we are Left with Crystal Ball at best... Sometimes I get the feeling that Top was the only thing that allowed nonblue fair decks to keep up halfway with the rest of the format.

[Mr. Safety]

If the reality were just that simple Pox would already be placing higher on the charts, but sadly it’s not.

I didn't say it would win tournaments...i was just saying Deluge/Plague are better than Dread of Night.

[Hardcore]

I suppose defeating blade is a matter of finding a better strategy. Mana denial doesn't work since they only need two lands to play SFM for the win. Discard is not much use since one cantrip is all they need to find SFM or Tnn.

[ghostfire86]

I suppose defeating blade is a matter of finding a better strategy. Mana denial doesn't work since they only need two lands to play SFM for the win. Discard is not much use since one cantrip is all they need to find SFM or Tnn.

We need to deal with Batterskull itself, but unless you plan on Loam Pox, or Vaka Pox (God I hate that damn name) it is hard to deal with artifacts. Anyone know of a Red Black Pox list? That would be something lol.

[Mr. Safety]

We need to deal with Batterskull itself, but unless you plan on Loam Pox, or Vaka Pox (God I hate that damn name) it is hard to deal with artifacts. Anyone know of a Red Black Pox list? That would be something lol.

YES, I've seen it. It played Blood Moon and Sinkhole (for basics). I'll try and fetch the list and post it. There was at least 2 players at a recent tournament that were playing BR pox-like decks. One opted for Chalice, the other for 1-mana discard.

EDIT: Can't find it. This was a rough sketch of the Moon/Sinkhole deck:

Blood Moon
Sinkhole
Smallpox
Chalice of the Void
Simian Spirit Guide
Liliana of the Veil
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Wasteland
Ancient Tomb
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Crucible of Worlds

Honestly, it seems ok, but not great. You can maindeck cards like Abrade which is excellent against Stoneblade decks. If you don't want to go the Chalice route I think playing a Cabal Therapy/Bloodghast synergy would be very good. You'll always know what to name after they play Mystic, lol. I like the concept, and it opens up cards like Pyroclasm (small swarms like Elves are a problem for Pox), Terminate, Pyroblast, and Fiery Confluence.

[jredelstein]

We need to deal with Batterskull itself, but unless you plan on Loam Pox, or Vaka Pox (God I hate that damn name) it is hard to deal with artifacts. Anyone know of a Red Black Pox list? That would be something lol.

Crack the Earth

[Mr. Safety]

Raze
Tremble
Misguided Rage

[aslidsiksoraksi]

I haven't had a ton of trouble against blade, so slightly surprised to hear that it's meant to be a bad matchup. NoSB shuts down everything but batterskull, for what that's worth.

I was toying around with the idea of a BR stompy/pox type list as well... but I get the feeling monored 8moon is probably just better? Black doesn't add a ton aside from sinkhole, smallpox, and lilliana. Red has plenty of LD options without Sinkhole, and smallpox's LD will be largely redundant if you land a moon. The creature hate side of things gets stronger with black I guess, so you don't have to rely so much on bridge.

It's an interesting idea, might try to throw something together. Sol lands and 2 colors seems iffy though :(

[naynay666]

I did well at a weekly and wanted to share my journey.

3x Innocent Blood
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
4x Collective Brutality
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
1x Bontu's Last Reckoning
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Phyrexian Totem
3x Dark Ritual
1x Empty the Pits
2x Fatal Push
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
1x Nether Spirit
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
12x Swamp

Sideboard
1x The Abyss
2x Bontu's Last Reckoning
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Extirpate
3x Leyline of the Void
1x Nether Void
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
3x Pithing Needle



Rd 1. Thalia Stompy

Game 1 Swamp, Cursed Scroll, go. Tomb, Chalice on 1. Wasteland. Cavern, Little Thalia. Factory, CoBru kills it. Big Thalia. CoBru kills it, Waste a land. Little Thalia. Never drew another land or anything relevant that wasn’t BB. Luckily he drew a Jitte to speed it up.

Out: Rituals, Inquisition, 1 Push.
In: Bridges, Bontu’s, The Abyss.

Game 2. Chalice on 1. Turn 3 Last Hope upticks into an empty field while discard did work on a player light on lands. Opponent starting recovering as the Last Hope ultimates. He scooped to Empty the Pits.

Game 3. Looter Scooter kept digging for creatures but I kept answering them at sorcery speed. Eventually a couple Misura’s Factory and Nether Spirit out raced a Smuggler’s Copter, Thoughtknot Seer and opposing Factory. Collective Brutality was the MVP in this game. Draining and gaining kept me out of range and killing (either) Thalia always feels good.

1-0

Rd 2. Miracles

Game 1. Swamp, Iok. See Jace, STP, Snappy, Predict, SFM, Plains, Fetch. Grabbed SFM. Thoughtseize coming back for Jace had to take Back to Basics. I stuck a Liliana, the Last Hope before he stuck a Mind Sculptor. Cursed Scroll and emblem tokens finished off Jace and then my opponent.

Out: Rituals.
In: Needles.

Game 2. Early Needle on a Jace I never saw. Cursed Scroll. Needle on Cursed Scroll. Stripped a Back to Basics. Counterbalance didn’t get too much but it let him get 3 creatures wide even after a Bontu. Eventually SFM, Snapcaster and a Revoker (of the Veil) end it.

Bring in another Bontu.

Game 3. Opponent mulled to 5. Thoughtsneeze. Hymn. Hymn. Opponent has no hand and is on two lands. Needle on a Jace I never saw. Topdecks Counterbalance. Nothing for a while on either side. Nether Spirit beats. Killed a SFM that greedily grabbed a Batterskull. Hit the lands to cast it. Innocent Blooded it. Bounce it. Cast it. Spirit/Brutalized it. Spirit chumps some more. Smallpox. Topdecks Jitte, active player turn 0, pass- end of turn Empty the Pits for 5. Opponent conceded.

2-0

Rd 3. BR Reanimator

Game 1. Badlands, Looting, bin a Griselbrand. Swamp, pass. Petal, Exhume, draw 7, Unmask. Scoop.

Out: Pushes, Hymns, Ob Nix.
In: Bridges, Leylines, Extirpates.

Game 2. Shows a Chancellor. I opened with Urborg, pass. Badlands, Looting, bin a Chancellor. Factory, pass. Land, Reanimate, Extirpate. Dark Ritual, Leyline if the Void. He digs for his own Rituals to help hard cast a Grizzy, but succumbs to double Factory beats.

Game 3. Lotus Petal, Unmask targeting himself. Shows Iona, Sire, a Reanimate and nonland non relevant cards. While deciding which to discard he says “If you show me Surgical Extraction I will scoop.” I show him Extirpate.

3-0

Rd 4. Miracles.

The last time I played Redcap’s he and I split in the 4th round. We did it again.

3-0-1! Woo!

The worst part about Pox is never being able to close out the game. The usual 8 threats of Factories, Scrolls, 2 creatures and a Totem wasn’t enough. Phyrexian Totem is a powerhouse so I added another. Empty the Pits is a card I have been wanting to try out for a minute. Those combined with the fact I am in love with Liliana, the Last Hope and missed playing with Ob Nixilis brings me up to 12 ways to end the game. Both times Lily hit the table she Ultimated. Never saw Nixon but he has been awesome in the past.

[Mr. Safety]

I haven't had a ton of trouble against blade, so slightly surprised to hear that it's meant to be a bad matchup. NoSB shuts down everything but batterskull, for what that's worth.

I was toying around with the idea of a BR stompy/pox type list as well... but I get the feeling monored 8moon is probably just better? Black doesn't add a ton aside from sinkhole, smallpox, and lilliana. Red has plenty of LD options without Sinkhole, and smallpox's LD will be largely redundant if you land a moon. The creature hate side of things gets stronger with black I guess, so you don't have to rely so much on bridge.

It's an interesting idea, might try to throw something together. Sol lands and 2 colors seems iffy though :(

Sol Lands are really only for Chalice. Black also offers targeted discard, Hymn to Tourach, better removal than red, and an attrition game plan that red can't really accomplish alone. I'm not saying it would be amazing, but black offers more than just LD/Liliana OTV.

Kolaghan's Command is also incredibly good. I could easily see like 2-3 Bloodghast, 4x Young Pyromancer and splashing Kolaghans Command, Moons, targeted discard, and PW's. Red allows for efficient low-level wipers as well, something black always has a hard time dealing with alone (small swarms.) Pyroclasm and Electrickery are both very good wipers.

Thoughtseize their key stuff, SInkhole their basics, Blood Moon everything else, clean up small stuff with Pyroclasm, use a Cabal Therapy/Young Pyromancer/Smallpox/Bloodghast engine for absurd value.

[Hardcore]

I did well at a weekly and wanted to share my journey.

3x Innocent Blood
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
4x Collective Brutality
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
1x Bontu's Last Reckoning
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Phyrexian Totem
3x Dark Ritual
1x Empty the Pits
2x Fatal Push
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
1x Nether Spirit
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
12x Swamp

Sideboard
1x The Abyss
2x Bontu's Last Reckoning
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Extirpate
3x Leyline of the Void
1x Nether Void
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
3x Pithing Needle



Rd 1. Thalia Stompy

Game 1 Swamp, Cursed Scroll, go. Tomb, Chalice on 1. Wasteland. Cavern, Little Thalia. Factory, CoBru kills it. Big Thalia. CoBru kills it, Waste a land. Little Thalia. Never drew another land or anything relevant that wasn’t BB. Luckily he drew a Jitte to speed it up.

Out: Rituals, Inquisition, 1 Push.
In: Bridges, Bontu’s, The Abyss.

Game 2. Chalice on 1. Turn 3 Last Hope upticks into an empty field while discard did work on a player light on lands. Opponent starting recovering as the Last Hope ultimates. He scooped to Empty the Pits.

Game 3. Looter Scooter kept digging for creatures but I kept answering them at sorcery speed. Eventually a couple Misura’s Factory and Nether Spirit out raced a Smuggler’s Copter, Thoughtknot Seer and opposing Factory. Collective Brutality was the MVP in this game. Draining and gaining kept me out of range and killing (either) Thalia always feels good.

1-0

Rd 2. Miracles

Game 1. Swamp, Iok. See Jace, STP, Snappy, Predict, SFM, Plains, Fetch. Grabbed SFM. Thoughtseize coming back for Jace had to take Back to Basics. I stuck a Liliana, the Last Hope before he stuck a Mind Sculptor. Cursed Scroll and emblem tokens finished off Jace and then my opponent.

Out: Rituals.
In: Needles.

Game 2. Early Needle on a Jace I never saw. Cursed Scroll. Needle on Cursed Scroll. Stripped a Back to Basics. Counterbalance didn’t get too much but it let him get 3 creatures wide even after a Bontu. Eventually SFM, Snapcaster and a Revoker (of the Veil) end it.

Bring in another Bontu.

Game 3. Opponent mulled to 5. Thoughtsneeze. Hymn. Hymn. Opponent has no hand and is on two lands. Needle on a Jace I never saw. Topdecks Counterbalance. Nothing for a while on either side. Nether Spirit beats. Killed a SFM that greedily grabbed a Batterskull. Hit the lands to cast it. Innocent Blooded it. Bounce it. Cast it. Spirit/Brutalized it. Spirit chumps some more. Smallpox. Topdecks Jitte, active player turn 0, pass- end of turn Empty the Pits for 5. Opponent conceded.

2-0

Rd 3. BR Reanimator

Game 1. Badlands, Looting, bin a Griselbrand. Swamp, pass. Petal, Exhume, draw 7, Unmask. Scoop.

Out: Pushes, Hymns, Ob Nix.
In: Bridges, Leylines, Extirpates.

Game 2. Shows a Chancellor. I opened with Urborg, pass. Badlands, Looting, bin a Chancellor. Factory, pass. Land, Reanimate, Extirpate. Dark Ritual, Leyline if the Void. He digs for his own Rituals to help hard cast a Grizzy, but succumbs to double Factory beats.

Game 3. Lotus Petal, Unmask targeting himself. Shows Iona, Sire, a Reanimate and nonland non relevant cards. While deciding which to discard he says “If you show me Surgical Extraction I will scoop.” I show him Extirpate.

3-0

Rd 4. Miracles.

The last time I played Redcap’s he and I split in the 4th round. We did it again.

3-0-1! Woo!

Thanks for the report! I have considered lily as a way to get inevitability vs some decks.
Was Empty the pits a win card or a win more card?

[ghostfire86]

Have a friend testing torment of scarabs as replacement for the abyss in a Black/Blue Modern Pox build. I’ve seen it in use and seems to carry more potential than I first have credit to it. Soft control with a potential wincon vs hard control for creature specific. Thoughts for use in an actual Legacy build?

[naynay666]

Thanks for the report! I have considered lily as a way to get inevitability vs some decks.
Was Empty the pits a win card or a win more card?

I was worried about it being a win more card when I added it. I only had it in hand three times. The 1st was against Thalia Stompy, where the Lily emblem was not enough. I would have been over run if I didn't press the issue with my opponent on his heels. The 2nd I held onto too long instead of escalating or Smallpoxing and that might have been the reason I lost game 2 vs. Miracles. The 3rd (game 3 Miracles) I wouldn't have won without it.

I am going to try it for a little while longer even though it's horrible in the opening 7.

[Hardcore]

How is liliana, the last hope? I am thinking maybe go for board control with of her and four of the lotv.

[naynay666]

How is liliana, the last hope? I am thinking maybe go for board control with of her and four of the lotv.

In my limited experience she was wonderful and ultimated both times she hit the table.

So, 100% success rate. Would cast again.

Upticking into nothing wasn't as painful as being the only one who discards to The Veil. The Last Hope's 2nd ability will almost never happen unless you play Tombstalker, which I don't.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

I've been playing Last Hope too, and can confirm she is pretty much amazing. Ultimates easily in the anemic boards Pox likes, and while I wish her +1 was -1/-2, it's still a decent way to kill Snapcasters, Thalias, Pyromancers, etc.

[ronco]

Have a friend testing torment of scarabs as replacement for the abyss in a Black/Blue Modern Pox build. I’ve seen it in use and seems to carry more potential than I first have credit to it. Soft control with a potential wincon vs hard control for creature specific. Thoughts for use in an actual Legacy build?

I actually have 4 in my build right now (standard build with 4 tombstalkers as my kill). I like it. I'd love it at 3cmc but it is what it is. Its taking the spot of LoTV since there is a considerable price difference and I have 0 LOTV currently. It is definitely a soft lock piece/kill card once the board is established.

[ghostfire86]

I actually have 4 in my build right now (standard build with 4 tombstalkers as my kill). I like it. I'd love it at 3cmc but it is what it is. Its taking the spot of LoTV since there is a considerable price difference and I have 0 LOTV currently. It is definitely a soft lock piece/kill card once the board is established.

I run The Abyss but was in love as it offers another potential kill while playing resource denial.i was thinking about running 2 mainboard for playtesting.

[Cybinary]

I wanted to post a quick report of a few games I played on MTGO last night, none of them were great and lost all three matches but maybe we can learn something from the experience.

My current build has been altered a bit from my last post, I have pulled 1 Scroll, 2 Lily Last Hope, and BBog to mainboard the Leyline/Helm combo just to see if I could get some easy wins with it.

MainBoard:
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Command
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 The Abyss
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Nether Spirit
11 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Maze of Ith

SideBoard:
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Collective Brutality
2 Lost Legacy (Trying in place of Surgicals)
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Nether Void
1 Beseech The Queen

Match 1 vs Doomsday
Both games I couldn't lock him down enough to prevent him from going off pretty quickly. I Had Leyline in opening hand game 1 but it didn't slow him down too much. Needle didn't help much either, Game 2 I was able to Beeseach to a NVoid (Brought in from Side) but he Duressed me his next turn making me pitch it. I am curious what others would have done against a deck like this. Oh, Game 1 he won off Tendrils, Game 2 off Lab Maniac

Match 2 vs Maverick
Both games are a race, he gets Gaddock out both games but it didnt affect me game 1 that much. I keep IoK and IBlood him to keep his creature count down but Gaddock beats me down until he could get a KoTR out and I scooped. Brought in Bridge, CBruttality, & TDeluge. Landed a Leyline opening hand (to help combat KoTR), but Gaddock still landed and started beating me down. Drew a Beeseach and was planning on grabbing my Abyss with it but then Gaddock never let me cast it (Beseach has CMC of 6!), played a bridge two turns too late.

Match 3 vs Sneak & Show Post(?)
Game 1 I had the opening leyline, he didn't care. Landed a turn 2 sneak w/ griselbrand off of volc, tomb and petal game was over pretty quickly after that when he sneaked in Emmy. Game 2 was pretty much the same, did have leyline/helm in opening hand. But he ramped with posts into a Ugin turn 3, landed the helm next turn but then he -4 Ugin to get rid of the leyline. After that it was intuition into Emmy, dead....

Not sold on the Leyline/Helm package, might try it a bit more but I feel the occasional chance to win off it isn't worth it. My playgroup things mainboarding leyline in this meta is great since so much stuff depends on GY. Snaps, DRS, PastInFlames (ANT/TES), RoTK and while it is a insta-win when against Reanaimater or Dredge still not sure it does enough. Anyways, interested to hear your thoughts... All three of these match ups were kind of depressing LOL.

[OmniStrata]

Land (25)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
7 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Enchantment (1)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles

Artifact (2)
2 Cursed Scroll

Planeswalker (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

Sorcery (19)
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

Creature (6)
4 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit
1 Tombstalker

Instant (4)
3 Dark Ritual
1 Fatal Push

Sideboard
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Engineered Plague
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Pithing Needle

- Clayton Levi from Brazil. 2nd place Lampion finish. No idea why he chose 61 cards though. I don't own a chains...:frown:
Just ordered my Bloodghasts and polluted Deltas for it! Though I'm going to replace the Bog with my Nether Void because Reasons...:laugh: Need to figure out how to squeeze in Cabal Therapy.

[Mr. Safety]

I die a little inside whenever I see so many recurrable sacrifice creatures to enable Cabal Therapy, and see none in the deck list. Maindeck Innocent Blood, Fatal Push, and Toxic Deluge are all enough for me to avoid playing Cursed Scroll. I just don't like the way it forces you to play. I'm not sold on Sinkhole either, not by a long shot. I do however need to give the guy credit for such a great finish. My guess is the field was soft to Smallpox overall.

Delta could be any black fetchland, there are literally no blue cards FYI, just in case others were inclined to feel the need to get Deltas.

A piece of tech I've been considering is Entomb. It can fetch a Bloodghast, Nether Spirit, Cabal Therapy (for flashback), Raven's Crime, or Wasteland/Mishra's Factory if you have Crucible available. Seeing Undead Gladiator spoiled in Masters 25 has me thinking of somehow using that as a draw engine as well. It's a recurring threat that costs a little mana, not a problem, and a card in hand to discard. Once we have two going it becomes an engine. It's old tech, but it might be useful, especially considering some of us can't afford the big money items like Chains, the Abyss, Tabernacles, or Nether Void. I think it forces a particular way to play, similar to Scroll, which might be a bad idea. Hitting for 3 a turn is really nice though, and cycling for a card in a pinch seems pretty good to me.

[OmniStrata]

I too loved Therapy in my older budget builds. I'm guessing the deltas are just boosted value fetch for ghast and yes any four swamp fetches work. I'd probably swap out some thoughtseizes for 1-2 therapies. No question.

I too dislike cursed scroll for reasons from the original primer. Even with lili in deck, it causes weird scenarios... Do I hold a spell? Do I do 2 damage? That's why I missed my old Chimeric Idols, but they can't work due to Mishra's :mad:

I ran zombie Kahmal a long time ago, he's a very mana intensive engine. I only ran just 1, though running 2 sounds odd. How would he work as an engine?

[Mr. Safety]

He would allow you to always get an extra draw for only 1B, or be a 3 powered threat you could always grab back from the graveyard. Recursive threats are exactly what Pox is looking for, like Bloodghast and Nether Spirit. Neither of those double up as a draw engine. Having 2 lands and a spare card to discard isn't hard at all to keep open, especially when you draw extra lands in the mid-late game that are useless. I always used him in Loam Pox back in the day, because discarding an extra land (that I almost always had) was easy to achieve. Another creature that can be sacrificed to Therapy and Smallpox with the option for getting it back later in the game. It's clunky, but in a long game drawing an extra 2-3 cards or having a 3/1 compared to a 2/1 or 2/2 could make the difference over several turns. It would also make late game Dark Rituals much more useful (and by useful I mean not 100% dead like usual, lol.)

I'm convinced these are the best win conditions for Pox in the current era:

Mishra's Factory
Bloodghast
Nether Spirit
Tombstalker
Liliana, the Last Hope
Bitterblossom


If we need removal, I think Collective Brutality and Toxic Deluge are better at gaining card advantage than Cursed Scroll.

[kombatkiwi]

He would allow you to always get an extra draw for only 1B, or be a 3 powered threat you could always grab back from the graveyard. Recursive threats are exactly what Pox is looking for, like Bloodghast and Nether Spirit. Neither of those double up as a draw engine. Having 2 lands and a spare card to discard isn't hard at all to keep open, especially when you draw extra lands in the mid-late game that are useless. I always used him in Loam Pox back in the day, because discarding an extra land (that I almost always had) was easy to achieve. Another creature that can be sacrificed to Therapy and Smallpox with the option for getting it back later in the game. It's clunky, but in a long game drawing an extra 2-3 cards or having a 3/1 compared to a 2/1 or 2/2 could make the difference over several turns. It would also make late game Dark Rituals much more useful (and by useful I mean not 100% dead like usual, lol.)

I'm convinced these are the best win conditions for Pox in the current era:

Mishra's Factory
Bloodghast
Nether Spirit
Tombstalker
Liliana, the Last Hope
Bitterblossom


If we need removal, I think Collective Brutality and Toxic Deluge are better at gaining card advantage than Cursed Scroll.

How is Undead Gladiator a draw engine? One of us is definitely misunderstanding something. Every time you return Gladiator to your hand you have to discard a card so it never provides any card advantage; it's not a black Squee.
Also if you want to return it and cast it in the same turn you need to have a card in hand before your draw step and have access to 5 mana, which is way too demanding for what you get out of it.

The nice thing about Collective Brutality is that it goes face if you have nothing else to do with it, which is part of the reason why Cursed Scroll is attractive. The comparison to Toxic Deluge is way off imo.

[Mr. Safety]

How is Undead Gladiator a draw engine? One of us is definitely misunderstanding something. Every time you return Gladiator to your hand you have to discard a card so it never provides any card advantage; it's not a black Squee.
Also if you want to return it and cast it in the same turn you need to have a card in hand before your draw step and have access to 5 mana, which is way too demanding for what you get out of it.

The nice thing about Collective Brutality is that it goes face if you have nothing else to do with it, which is part of the reason why Cursed Scroll is attractive. The comparison to Toxic Deluge is way off imo.

It's definitely a stretch on mana, which would in all practicality have to take place over 2 turns. One thing Pox is good at is spinning wheels without doing anything for several turns, especially after creating a depraved game state. *Shrug* Bloodghast/Nether Spirit is probably better. I'm not advocating it, it's really just a big of nostalgia. Some people use Raven's Crime, some people just play draw-go. I think in mono-black it's a lot less useful than with Loam, which provides lands to discard and get him back (and provides a cycler to save Loam in a pinch.) Again, it's a stretch. TL;DR- It's a way to do something when you are typically doing nothing. Conversely, this is why Bitterblossom is so good because it does work even when you aren't drawing anything.


If we need removal, I think Collective Brutality and Toxic Deluge are better at gaining card advantage than Cursed Scroll.

Same argument as above (doing something when typically doing nothing) for card advantage with Scroll, but scroll occasionally gets you in a pickle. Unless you have an active Liliana you can sometimes just get 2 cards in hand, which means it can miss, which is terrible. We've discussed Scroll several times in this thread and many people are moving away from it. I've seen Reid Duke (probably the most prominent Pox player in Legacy) have trouble with it on camera, and in his streams he has gone back and forth on when to use it and why. Deluge is a way to clean up creature swarms, which is going to be the role Scroll does if the board gets clogged anyways. Yes, Scroll deals damage, but so does Nether Spirit/Bloodghast/Factory. It's role as a finisher is much less important than for controlling the board, and Punishing Fire it is not. Not trying to be pedantic, but Toxic Deluge is card advantage if it takes care of more than one creature for only one card spent, which is the argument I am putting forth. And I already recognized that Brutality is a good pick, and in fact one I would pick over Deluge.

[Erdvermampfa]

Undead Gladiator is less of a draw engine in the sense of card advantage, but it does provide you card quality if you have enough mana. It allows you to cycle dead cards for new ones which might be useful because decks like these both lack card quality management and tend to play a lot of cards which are less useful in the lategame (discard etc.).

[Mr. Safety]

Top was obviously boss at doing that, but there are very few options in black/artifacts that can help accomplish that. I don't think Crystal Ball is going to suddenly become good.

EDIT: Sea Gate Wreckage?

[OmniStrata]

Top was obviously boss at doing that, but there are very few options in black/artifacts that can help accomplish that. I don't think Crystal Ball is going to suddenly become good.

EDIT: Sea Gate Wreckage?

It's the poor man's Azcanta... That damn land has farked me over enough times, then again, I should do some testing. Sea Gate definitely seems like more card advantage than the scroll, it's effect also allows you to not need the scroll since their abilities are counterproductive. Gotta give it a shot!

[Mr. Safety]

I agree that Azcanta is really good in Miracles, but I don't think it's worth the splash in Pox. Maybe? If I were to splash in Pox, and I am quite biased obviously, would be green. Loam + Cycle lands is a genuine card draw engine, Entomb can enable it easily, and Sylvan Library is easily the best option for filtering draws. A while ago I tried to make Bg pox work with Hexmage/Depths/Stage/Crop Rotation. Then I tried working in Dark Confidant...which eventually led me to dropping the Pox effects and going full-bore into Depths combo. I can't help but feel that splashing a color needs to be for more than just a card draw engine. For a true Pox deck, I really like Tombstalker and Bitterblossom, especially the latter. You don't need card draw if you can just slowly build an army while suppressing your opponent's ability to play the game.

[Chronatog]

With only Snow-Covered Swamps in the deck Scrying Sheets can help to get us to draw more business cards. Haven't tried it yet.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=121204&type=card

[ghostfire86]

With only Snow-Covered Swamps in the deck Scrying Sheets can help to get us to draw more business cards. Haven't tried it yet.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=121204&type=card

Yes but after runnIng 8 colorless lands already and 1 non mana producer for those that run Tabernacle, can we really offers to add another when many of our spells are double black

[Mr. Safety]

It's the poor man's Azcanta... That damn land has farked me over enough times, then again, I should do some testing. Sea Gate definitely seems like more card advantage than the scroll, it's effect also allows you to not need the scroll since their abilities are counterproductive. Gotta give it a shot!

Very low risk, we wouldn't be able to support more than 1-2 copies anyways, and it's like a $1 card. My inclination is to cut a Wasteland to make room for it, or just run 26 lands (25 is typical for me, 4 Factory + 4 Wasteland + 4 Urborg + 12 Swamp + 1 Cabal Pit/Bojuka Bog depending on meta)

I would try something like this:

1x Tombstalker
4x Bitterblossom

3x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Fatal Push
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
2x Collective Brutality
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana the Last Hope
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Beseech the Queen
1x Raven's Crime
3x Dark Ritual

4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12x Swamp
1x Cabal Pit
1x Sea Gate Wreckage


I really like the Beseech the Queen toolbox with Crucible, Ratchet Bomb, Raven's Crime, and Wreckage; it's slow, but that's ok in Pox. I don't think it will ever be able to grab the Tombstalker, lol (it can always grab a Factory in a pinch if I need a threat.) Fatal Push could be Innocent Blood depending on metagame. If I had the high roller cards like Tabernacle, the Abyss, or Chains I would play them in the sideboard. As it stands I would definitely sideboard 3-4 Engineered Plagues in the board, which makes Night of Soul's Betrayal unnecessary.

Dark Ritual could be at 4 copies, just because there are ways to abuse it late game like escalating Brutality and being able to play Beseech + target in one turn.

EDIT: @Chronotog - Scrying Sheets is a great draw engine, especially if you were to play a Depths plan (it's a snow land...) but the Factory's or Wastelands would have to give. Black Mana is just too important, and Factory as an alternative win condition has been critical since forever.

[OmniStrata]

With only Snow-Covered Swamps in the deck Scrying Sheets can help to get us to draw more business cards. Haven't tried it yet.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=121204&type=card

A long time ago, I'd have run it with withering Wisps in my Frozen Witch Pox build, but that was during the Divining Top Age. It's less effective with high non-snow land counts and no top to set you up. Default Pox builds already run 12 non swamp lands! 4 urborg, wastelands and Factories. You could try it... But in today's banned top world, I'd advise against it. There is Crystal Ball, but I've never tested it.

[Chronatog]

"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it."

@ghostfire86 Yes, it is not easy to use Scrying Sheets in the current consensus build and definitely a new deck should be build that can incorporate Scrying Sheets and benefits from this card.

For example, I never liked Wasteland in the deck as it feels clunky. When it works, it works well; and when it doesn't work, it hampers our own mana development. Mishra's Factory is different as it helps to finish the game, but both Wasteland and Mishra's Factory require us to use Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. The question is whether it is possible to implement a pox-like strategy of grindy resource attrition in the current metagame without Wasteland, Mishra's Factory, and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth? These cards take up to 12 slots. I'm not an expert in Pox and am not sure what 12 cards we can bring. But, why not to experiment and deviate from the consensus opinion? Is this what Magic about - building your deck and having fun?

@Mr. Safety I never thought about Dark Depth plan in the context of Pox, but it has it own merits. I am not sure that Pox is the most efficient way to utilize Dark Depth strategy, but this approach may work as a transformational sideboard, I guess.

Basically we will need to substitute 4x Wastelands, 4x Mishra's Factory, and 4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth with 4x Dark Depth, 4x Thespian's Stage, and 4x Vampire Hexmage. But there is not much space left for Scrying Sheets if we want to improve our draws, and we will also end up with four no mana producing lands, and eight brown lands.

BTW, if you like using Raven's Crime, I think it combines well with Scrying Sheets as you will get more spare lands in your hand.

@OmniStrata Withering Wisps is Pestilence on steroids and I think it fits well into the deck's philosophy. It also combines well with Nether Spirit - return Nether Spirit at the beginning of your turn, cast some discard/sinkhole spells, pass the turn, activate Withering Wisps at the end of the opponents turn. Lather, rinse, repeat. For this build I'd prefer to have some life drain effect so we always have more LPs than our opponent. I'd recommend another cool card from Ice Age - Soul Burn as it is a great thematic addition to Pox, Scyring Sheets, Withering Wisps, and Snow-Covered Swamps, but Drain Life is better (and a Mirage reprint has an amazing art by RKF).

[aslidsiksoraksi]

I can't say I'm into the plan of dropping wastelands, that card is too good too often. If we want to be a Dark depths deck, that's a possibility, but cutting wastelands for DD and factories for Stages leaves us just as many colorless sources, so we'll still need Urborg... And I guess on another level it just doesn't feel right to me to have this kind of thing in the deck; if we were designed to make use of it we'd be TurboDepths, and if we were a control deck using it we'd be Lands. It feels like Monoblack depths Pox doesn't add much that those decks don't have and lacks a lot of what they bring to the table (eg Loam, Crop Rotation).

Pox operates by denying resources - it is a prison deck above all else. If we cut wastelands, then we are removing our ability to attack our opponent's mana base. Given how few sinkholes there are out there these days, that leaves only Smallpox for land destruction. Without land destruction, we're just a more pro-active control deck that can make good use of Lilliana. We'll get beaten by any blue deck there is, since blue will have the tools to outdraw us. Wasteland is key in the Delver matchups, where our route to victory is to choke them out of mana.

We do a good job of smashing all resources, from hand to mana to creatures. The main things we seem to have trouble with are closing out the game and smoothing our draws.. I'm excited to try Torment of Scarabs to help with that first one a little, though I'm a bit worried that without any supplemental pressure it'll be too slow.
I keep trying to think of more interesting ways to lock the opponent, starve them of resources... have been trying ensnaring bridge for a bit with decent success. Bitterblossom is another one that seems quite good at both holding people off and closing things down.

As for drawing... scrying sheets feels like a long shot. I'd try Crystal Ball first. Bottled Cloister is another good one.

Anyway. just some thoughts from a Pox player. love the deck more and more each time I play it.

[naynay666]

Wasteland can be crippling but it isn’t always relevant. I have been screwed by too many colorless sources far too often. All of our double black means we have to have an Urborg or we don’t get to play the game. It hurts when we are not able to Hymn or Smallpox, but worse yet are those occasions when we are helping our opponent. Yeah them getting black mana for DRS from a Fetchhland sucks, but letting them power out a Reality Smasher off of an Eye on turn 2 suuuuuuckkss. Not to mention Urborg’s complications from the Legendary rule.

Mishra’s Factory is the best of our nonbasics. It’s a threat that gets around our edicts that can block really well. I want to test out a 4 Factory, 20 Swamp manabase over 12 nonbasic and 12 basic.

My meta has a lot of Red Prison decks as well as (basic heavy) Miracles with a strong disdain for nonbasic lands either through Back to Basics or Ruination. But it also has a lot of everything else. Lands is always the hardest matchup and giving up Wasteland isn’t going to make that any easier- but giving their Wastelands less targets makes us a little more resilient.

The 4:20 manabase seems good but will be difficult for me to test, as I have just finished foiling Urborg and Wasteland.

[OmniStrata]

@OmniStrata Withering Wisps is Pestilence on steroids and I think it fits well into the deck's philosophy. It also combines well with Nether Spirit - return Nether Spirit at the beginning of your turn, cast some discard/sinkhole spells, pass the turn, activate Withering Wisps at the end of the opponents turn. Lather, rinse, repeat. For this build I'd prefer to have some life drain effect so we always have more LPs than our opponent. I'd recommend another cool card from Ice Age - Soul Burn as it is a great thematic addition to Pox, Scyring Sheets, Withering Wisps, and Snow-Covered Swamps, but Drain Life is better (and a Mirage reprint has an amazing art by RKF).

Actually, back then, my one md spinning darkness was usually enough to keep me afloat. :cool: 2 Nether spirit was the secret ingredient to that doom. Just had to count the spinning darkness alt cast carefully so you didn't lose both of them. Factory alone could keep wisps online actually.

[ntropy]

The State of Mono Black Pox: A “Tournament Report” from #SCGWOR
The first time I played Sinkholes in a tournament, Duress had been printed exactly once. Pox had been printed, but I hadn’t read it yet. I eventually caught on, about the time Duress got its second printing. I was jamming Nether Spirits, Chimeric Idols and Cursed Scrolls all day. Over the years we’ve received many, many excellent cards, Tier 1 quality cards. Thoughtseize. Liliana of the Veil. Toxic Deluge. Collective Brutality. Fatal Push. The problem is those cards all go in the Tier 1 decks too. The only card printed since Innocent Blood that only helps Pox is Smallpox. (Fine. Tombstalker too.) Our deck’s MO is to break the symmetry of powerful symmetrical effects to gain “virtual card advantage,” while controlling the game via more traditional, 1-for-1 means. The lack of support for these kind of symmetrical effects means our deck sometimes struggles to keep up with decks that just jam 2-for-1s all day long. Decks with K.Command, any Planeswalker, or Stoneforge Mystic can just out value us by cantripping into the right cards. Some people use Legends cards to lock out decks instead of merely disrupting them, and other people splash colors for access to more powerful cards. I’m budgeted out of either of those options, but I still want to Sinkhole. This is my story.
Tournament Prep:
I was feeling pretty low about my list. I was losing to Delver, exactly the creature deck I felt I should beat. Young Pyromancer was owning me. Brainstorm was owning me. I wanted to tune Pox to beat Delver.
Step 1: Play other builds. I’m not independently wealthy, so Legends lock pieces are a pipe dream for later, as are Mox Diamonds and Duals. I shopped around for some different takes on the deck to try out while I think about my list and what to do with it.
The first list I tried was a Red splash. Young Pyromancers, Dreadbores, K.Commands in the main, Bloodghasts too. Abrades and Magus of the Moon in the board. Pressure for planeswalkers and a faster clock. I cut sweepers and Sinkholes. Young Pyro is a terrible top deck without cantrips, and this deck needs sweepers. Lesson learned.
The next list was Big Pox. Pox hits for 7, Tomby, The Rack and Bloodghasts clean up. No sinkholes, fewer sweepers, more discard (Bottomless Pit!) Decks have got more powerful since the RUG Delver days when we trimmed all of our big poxes to keep up with the tempo – Power up to deal with the creep. Again, creatures are a terrible topdeck. I liked this build, but I seriously doubt it can beat Delver consistently. Relying on 3 mana spells is too slow vs. Daze/Spell Pierce.
Step 2: Revisit my build: More disruption, fewer win-condition top-decks. How can I fight Young Pyro with Smallpox and Innocent Blood? I moved to 2 Ratchet Bomb, 2 Toxic Deluge, 2 Collective Brutality main, in addition to Smallpox, Innocent Blood, Liliana of the Veil. I trimmed a Pithing Needle, an Innocent Blood, my singleton Inquisition of Kozilek. In the board there are 2 more Brutalities, 1 more Deluge, and an Engineered Plague. (Name Human, unless you need to name Elemental). Feels good in testing.
Step 3: Try it out: 6 round tournament for Duals. Round 1, Grixis Delver: Win. Feels Great. Round 2: All Spells. Win. Welcome to Legacy. Round 3, Sneak and Show. Win. Feels Great. Round 4: ANT. Lose in 3. Very close, could have gone either way. Round 5: Grixis Delver. Lose in 3. Very close, could have gone either way. Round 6: Death and Taxes. Lose. Tilted. Played loose. 3-3 record. It’s better than other recent performances, but a bit of a downer after a 3-0 start. Deck felt consistent and powerful all day. I’m ready for #SCGWOR!
Step 4: #SCGWOR: Abandon all hope, it’s not pretty.
Round 1: Lands. 0-1-1
Game 1 I needle Thespian’s Stage, so he’s locked in on Punishing Fire. I get in Mishra’s Factory Beats and work on controlling his Lands – His only red sources for a long time were Barbarian Rings and Groves. Once he gets Fires online I’m at 24, he’s at 4. If I draw a Cursed Scroll I win. 40 minutes later I lose, having not drawn a Cursed Scroll. Game 2 I have 10 minutes to play for the draw. We end in Turns I have Stage Needled and a Leyline of the Void in play. I was attacking with 4 damage per turn, but I didn’t have time to win. His pace of play was fine, it really was a 40 minute game. I didn’t scoop because I had very live draws.
0-1
Round 2: Burn. 1-2
Game 1 I steal with an Urborg/Double Factory Sinkhole start into aggressive factory Beats. He couldn’t keep up. Game 2 and 3 go as per the usual Burn plan. I get him Hellbent with one Mountain in play, and he top decks burn like his deck is supposed to.
0-2
Round 3: Dark Maverick. 1-2
Finally, a creature deck! Turn 2 Smallpox away your board, turn 3 run it back, Crush, Smash, Stomp. Game 2 I mulligan and never assemble anything. Game 3 I’ve over boarded. Needle should go out for this matchup, not come in. Sweepers and Edicts will deal with Knights. I kept a hand with needle, and drew a second one off the top. If it had been any other non-land card I think I would have stabilized, but I got bashed a few turns later by giant (vanilla) knights.
0-3
Round 4: Punishing Theives. 0-2
Game 1 I was able to smash my way through a Dack and a Chandra and a Jace, and I punted it away in the clean-up. He finally found a Grove and I pitched a Sinkhole to Brutality to increase pressure, when I should have Sinkholed the Grove and pitched the Brutality to Lili ‘cause who cares? I proceeded to lose to Punishing Grove mopping up my factories.
Game 2 I mulliganed and never really recovered. Planeswalkers are hard to beat.
0-4 You’d think I’d Drop, but I came to play. Game on!
Round 5: No Show. Easy Win
1-4
Round 6: High Tide. 1-2
What is this, 2011? This is a terrible matchup, our Creature removal is dead, our Wastelands are dead, our opponent can go off from 3 Islands, 2 cards in hand. After board, Leyline of the Void plus extra discard from Collective Brutality can put them under enough pressure that they can whiff, which happened game 2, but it’s pretty hopeless in my experience.
1-5
Round 7: Grixis Delver. 2-0
Ahh, at last, the deck I expected to face all day. Crushed as I hoped.
2-5
Round 8: No Show. Easy Win
3-5
Round 9: Grixis Delver. 2-0
This opponent was a better player than round 7, so it was closer, but my setup worked as advertised.
4-5 (sort-of)
The tournament was great. The venue was great, multiple friends day 2’d, Legacy is great. Don’t Ban DRS. No artist’s alley was a disappointment, but the dent and scratch case was kind to me as usual.
Step 5: Moving forward with Pox:
My record was terrible, but both the lands match and the Maverick match were 100% winnable, just caught some variance. My immediate change to the list is add a Bitterblossom. I picked one up and I can’t wait to try it out. I think a Liliana, the Last Hope is in order as well. I also plan to fiddle with the Big Pox list some more, and as always, I’m saving for Bayous and Mox Diamonds so I can dive back into Loam Pox. I may take a break for a few weeks at the local to play some combo decks, or maybe not. Despite the bad performance, I still feel good about the deck. There’s no tier 2 deck I’d rather pilot.
Keep Destroying Any One Land!

[ntropy]

Oh yeah, My list:

4 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
3 Innocent Blood
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
2 Collective Brutality
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Nether Spirit

11 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth'
1 Cabal Pit

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Tombstalker
2 Pithing Needle
2 Collective Brutality
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Plague
1 Toxic Deluge

[Hardcore]

If you want to empty your hand for cursed scroll activation you should consider Contagion.
Also, with your game plan and shaky mana base: Crucible of the worlds.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Man if we're posting reports... I'm pumped! Thank you for that one ntropy, and thanks for repping Pox at the SCG! How was 4 sinkhole? I feel like it's good against land-light Delver and the like but against other stuff it feels like it does too little. I'm down to two right now. I'm also pumped to try the Bitterblossoms, please do report back on how it goes. Also nice work against SnShow, I always seem to bomb in that matchup... what's the secret??

I didn't go anywhere as cool as SCG but here's my report for tonight's little Legacy Monday.

Decklist:
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the last Hope
1 Fatal Push
3 Dark Ritual
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Nether Void
1 Collective Brutality
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sinkhole
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cabal Pit
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
10 Swamp

SB
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Tombstalker
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Pithing Needle
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Collective Brutality

note on the list: I've been trying out 3x bridge in the MD. My meta is very creature heavy, so I thought it might be good (that's also the reasoning behind 2x Deluge). I think my conclusion is that it's not that good. It doesn't fit with the other ways of destroying resources, since it makes things irrelevant instead of destroying them. And we can't do enough from behind it; all we have is Lilliana and Cursed Scroll, the latter of which is kind of lackluster behind a Bridge. I'll probably cut them down to maybe 1 or 1 on the board.

Round 1: Big Eldrazi
I've been playing against this guy over and over and we joke that we're the definitive authorities on the Pox/Big Eldrazi matchup. It seems kind of even, though probably a little in his favor, maybe 60/40. Game 1 he got an early Ugin. I had beats with factory but chose to hit him instead of Ugin. Turns out this was kind of stupid since he ulted (I should read the dang card) and well that's all she wrote. I thought I could get there because of how much he hurt himself with a double Tomb draw but no such luck. Game 2 we are back and forth a bit, him hurting from tombs and me killing his creatures. Eventually he sticks an Endbringer. I drop a Tombstalker. Over the course of the next few turns I tick up ratchet bomb until it can kill Endbringer so I can finally swing in. Luckily he wiffs a lot so I'm able to pull it off. Game 3 I slow him down a lot with some Smallpoxes. This time Tombstalker is raring to go straight from the gates with smallpox for fuel. Closes the game out pretty fast.
1-0

Round 2: Miracles
Never played this guy before but he talks like plays a lot. So that's something. Game 1 I go ritual Liliana Last Hope. Apparently he kept a 1-land hand with two cantrips. Don't do that against Pox. I defend Lilliana and play Smallpoxes. He does some stuff with Snapcaster to try and kill her, but it doesn't really work out. He never gets past 2 mana and concedes when I hymn a land out of his hand (he must have gotten 2 off a Brainstorm or something). Game 2 my opener is the nuts against Miracles. I feel like in this matchup you have to be proactive. I've got 2x Scroll, 2x Lilliana. I play one after another after another and eventually he scoops to the dark queen of Pox herself. Tombstalker is again what seals the match.
2-0

Round 3: Aggro Loam
This matchup sucks. Game 1 I mulligan a probably keepable hand. But it in any case I lose to a ton of creatures and a Lilliana ult that makes my 3 lands and a bridge look stupid. Bridge did save me a lot, but it also did not win the game. Game 2. I get a Leyline which is pretty important. But eventually he destroys it with rec sage. A lot of slow grinding but Sylvan Library + Life from the Loam is honestly more than we can handle. Maybe a Tombstalker could have helped me get there in time, but he had too much value for me to pull out. Loam decks are bad matchups, that's all there is to it.
2-1

Round 4: Esper Blade
Game 1 we trade back and forth, with a Cabal Therapy hitting his batterskull after Collective Brutality revealed his hand. I'm feeling pretty good behind a bridge but he's got Stoneblade. I do something dumb like flashback Therapy trying to get his Jitte when he can just flash in Jitte with the Mystic. So yeah, that's what he does. I can never drop to less than 1 card in hand, and Stoneblade plus Jitte gets there in the end. I also lost to my own Nether Void, which is a dumb feeling (drew her after playing it and could have played Lilliana to empty my hand but she got countered by the void). Game 2 is grindy as hell (this matchup kinda is that way) and we go back and forth a lot. I'm hitting him factories early on and he is land-light. I have therapy after Inquisition this time, and I would have hit double snapcaster except that he brainstorms to hide them. He swords the first factory, and I don't attack with the second, knowing he can snap-swords again. So we stall for a bit, with some mild pressure from Lilliana as she upticks. Eventually he snaps to brainstorm his way out of this. I kill the snapcaster, and go for it with the factory only to see... a third snapcaster?? So he snap-swords my boy. Oh well. I have push for the snapcaster and he scoops to Lilliana's ultimate a couple turns later. Game 3 was the grindiest of all though, a true pox game. He has no actions the first few turns, and I do some small things. Eventually he has three uncracked fetches, two of them Flooded Strand. I play Pithing Needle - you win when your opponent misplays right? But he's smart enough to crack them. I name Stoneforge Mystic and start coming in with Factory. I've seen his hand with an Inquisition and it is very slow, with the no creatures and most important card being Jace. I play Smallpox twice into an empty board and he uses Force of Will on it both times. It seems like his plan is to get to 4 lands and hope Jace can carry the day. He's on his heels for a bit but finally gets a decent manabase, and at 3 lands, I flashback Therapy for Jace, using my factory. He topdecks the 4th land the next turn. I probably should have hit the Jace sooner, but hey we got there in time. We continue to trade back and forth, I land a Lilliana, he Engineered Explosives it away. I do it again and kill a TNN before he gets another explosives. In the end, I'm sitting on Lilliana and Cursed Scroll when he casts Intuition for Jace, Sorin (the one that makes tokens, it's a tech thing he runs), and a disenchant for a scroll i just landed. I give him Disenchant, reasoning that by dumping the walkers into the grave I leave him with virtually no more wincons. And so it is - he scoops not long after.
3-1

Party on! I'm impressed with Tombstalker. Unimpressed with Bridge, though it was worth trying. Nether Void, by the way - not really worth the money, it doesn't do enough. I've been playing it for a couple months and it's won 1 game for me and just looked stupid the rest of the time. The Abyss might be better, if we're going old-school lock style. Anyway. Still committed to the old-school grindfest Pox build. Excited to hear how Bitterblossom plays out. Keep slinging swamps y'all

[Hardcore]

Thanks for posting reports, guys. Even if you don't always get feedback they're always read with interest by the followers of this topic.

[ntropy]

Man if we're posting reports... I'm pumped! Thank you for that one ntropy, and thanks for repping Pox at the SCG! How was 4 sinkhole? I feel like it's good against land-light Delver and the like but against other stuff it feels like it does too little. I'm down to two right now. I'm also pumped to try the Bitterblossoms, please do report back on how it goes. Also nice work against SnShow, I always seem to bomb in that matchup... what's the secret??


Not gonna lie, I'm always happy to see Sinkhole. There are matches I board it out. All Spells, for example, or Miracles. But without choking their mana, our opponents can too easily cantrip their way back into a game. For Sneak and Show I cut 2 Toxic Deluge, 2 Ratchet Bomb, 4 Dark Ritual, 1 Cursed Scroll. for 2 Ensnaring Bridge, 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Collective Brutality, 3 Tomstalker. It's not fantastic, but Needle for Sneak, Grisel, Brutality for discard, Bridge to stop their huge monsters, and TStalks to clock them. They can absolutely still overpower/outrace us, but this seems to be OK.

I will let you know how Bitterblossom goes!

[aslidsiksoraksi]

That's an interesting point about the Sinkholes and I think a good point too. The best games for Pox are the ones where the opponents are starved on mana. I've been focusing on shutting down creatures and hands for the most part, with a smaller emphasis on mana. Maybe shifting gears would make sense... something to think about.

By the way, I've been keeping track of my matches since I picked up the deck in August of last year. I thought you all might be interested in seeing the results so far, so here's a link to the google doc (let me know if it doesn't work):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nzBLjbLRXC_ZLgykzxrszgF927uutiqEBla573mbRvE/edit?usp=sharing

Decklists aren't always correct or up-to-date just because I'm always mussing about with stuff. If you like I could make a more complete sheet for everyone to add info to, but I'm not sure how much people actually care.

[Hardcore]

Numbers coupled to changes made would have yielded more useful data, of course. That would take it to a scientific level and that would mean a lot of work.

[ntropy]

That's an interesting point about the Sinkholes and I think a good point too. The best games for Pox are the ones where the opponents are starved on mana. I've been focusing on shutting down creatures and hands for the most part, with a smaller emphasis on mana. Maybe shifting gears would make sense... something to think about.

By the way, I've been keeping track of my matches since I picked up the deck in August of last year. I thought you all might be interested in seeing the results so far, so here's a link to the google doc (let me know if it doesn't work):


Awesome. I ought to start keeping track of my numbers.

Historically, Pox needs to control all 3; cards in hand, board presence, and access to mana. Otherwise the effectiveness of the cards Pox and Smallpox are lessened, and if we're not trying to maximize those cards, we should just play Jund. (or The Rock, or Abzan, or whatever) We also need the flexibility in our sideboard if one of those areas is irrelevant. We need something to put in instead of Hymns vs. Dredge, instead of Sinkholes vs. Miracles, and instead of Innocent Blood vs. Storm, for examples. That's why I think Sinkhole is important.

[Hardcore]

Rack Pox don't bother much with land destruction. It is to its advantage that people can empty their hands.

[LeonardoWilhelm]

Hey!

Did you guys see that Wizards released information on 'Dominaria' today? Cards, mechanics and rule changes. Do you think there is any viable addition to Legacy Pox in there?

[Hardcore]

Damping Sphere
2
Artifact
If a land is tapped for two or more mana, it produces C instead of any other type and amount.
Each spell a player casts costs 1 more to cast for each other spell that player has cast this turn.


Other than that it appears to be a severe case of lack of imagination.

[OmniStrata]

Damping Sphere
2
Artifact
If a land is tapped for two or more mana, it produces C instead of any other type and amount.
Each spell a player casts costs 1 more to cast for each other spell that player has cast this turn.


Other than that it appears to be a severe case of lack of imagination.

"Damping Engine" seems like it'd work in Pox, but yes, lack of imagination... Darn it! I want More Chimeric Idol-like threats... I can cast and damage you on the same turn... Only reason I don't run the idol is cause Factory is more efficient in long run... :frown: Actually threats like Bloodghast that could block would be nice. I'm a Poxer cause I wanted a good LD playing deck. For LD flavor to work, you need fast threats that can come early and kill your foe before they stabilize.

[Pittplayer]

Could Squee, the Immortal... see play in Pox with a red splash? He is more mana intensive than Nether Spirit, but he can play from the graveyard AND exile, making him better vs Rest in Peace and Swords to Plowshares.

[Hardcore]

Could Squee, the Immortal... see play in Pox with a red splash? He is more mana intensive than Nether Spirit, but he can play from the graveyard AND exile, making him better vs Rest in Peace and Swords to Plowshares.

I would say no. The mana cost is indeed prohibitive and stp, pte, is not enough of a problem for us. I am not sure it will see play at all. Too expensive for burn, and UR Delver has better threats.

[Fox]

Would rather have the original Squee and use it as recurring discard fodder without ever splashing a color.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Yeah new Squee seems like a Food Chain card, if anything

The damping card might be a decent sideboard option. I'll prolly pick a few up if they're cheap and try it out

[Hardcore]

Damping Sphere will hit so many decks in the format that we can sit back and enjoy the show.

[kombatkiwi]

Awesome. I ought to start keeping track of my numbers.

Historically, Pox needs to control all 3; cards in hand, board presence, and access to mana. Otherwise the effectiveness of the cards Pox and Smallpox are lessened, and if we're not trying to maximize those cards, we should just play Jund. (or The Rock, or Abzan, or whatever) We also need the flexibility in our sideboard if one of those areas is irrelevant. We need something to put in instead of Hymns vs. Dredge, instead of Sinkholes vs. Miracles, and instead of Innocent Blood vs. Storm, for examples. That's why I think Sinkhole is important.


Rack Pox don't bother much with land destruction. It is to its advantage that people can empty their hands.

Trying to deny multiple types of resource at once is generally poor because an opponent with no hand can't play anything regardless of how much mana they have, and an opponent with no lands is going to be unable to do anything regardless of the number of cards in their hand. If you thoughtseize your opponent and then Sinkhole them, they are probably in a better spot than if you hit them with Sinkhole x2 or Thoughtseize x2. This is why you don't generally see people playing Thoughtseize and Stifle in the same deck.

I don't think Sinkhole is even bad vs Miracles seeing as their finishers are all relatively expensive and it also destroys Azcanta.

I agree that discard is bad vs dredge, creature removal is bad vs storm etc. But is there really not enough room in the SB to have specific cards for these matchups rather than just 'these maindeck cards suck, might as well bring Sinkhole in?'

Here is where I am at:

1x Nether Spirit
4x The Rack
4x Shrieking Affliction
4x Liliana
4x Smallpox
4x Hymn to Tourach
21

12 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Factory
4 Urborg
24

I think the above 45 cards are a lock

Remaining 15 would be like
4 IoK
3 Innocent Blood
3 Thoughtseize
3 Raven's Crime
2 Sinkhole, Pox, Cursed Scroll, Collective Brutality, Last Hope, etc

so:

8 Racks
24 Lands
27 Cheap disruption (cmc < 4)
1 Nether spirit
0 Dark Ritual

It just makes so much sense:

- Playing 4 Drops in your Smallpox / Liliana deck is extremely suspect because in many cases you will simply not have the resources to cast them
- Playing Dark Ritual in an attrition deck is awful because it makes your number of bad topdecks astronomical (you're already playing a ton of discard spells)
- If you cut the 4 drops then there isn't much of a reason to play Ritual anymore either
- 9 threats + factory might seem like a lot, but in a deck with 10+ discard spells you don't want to have a very low threat density because then you will lose games to your opponent having a higher number of relevant topdecks than you

4 Leyline is a lock for the SB
3-4 Ratchet Bomb too because you need outs to chalice of the void
2-3 Pithing Needle because it's just too good vs random stuff like Thespian's Stage, Sneak Attack

I also want to see how many Field of Ruin the manabase can support, but maybe this is too greedy.

Obv this isn't be the only way to build the deck considering Adachi Ryosuke's somewhat-recent success with Chains of Mephistopheles, Crucible, Phyrexian Totem etc but I like the way this version plays

[Hardcore]

Trying to deny multiple types of resource at once is generally poor because an opponent with no hand can't play anything regardless of how much mana they have, and an opponent with no lands is going to be unable to do anything regardless of the number of cards in their hand. If you thoughtseize your opponent and then Sinkhole them, they are probably in a better spot than if you hit them with Sinkhole x2 or Thoughtseize x2. This is why you don't generally see people playing Thoughtseize and Stifle in the same deck.

I don't think Sinkhole is even bad vs Miracles seeing as their finishers are all relatively expensive and it also destroys Azcanta.

I agree that discard is bad vs dredge, creature removal is bad vs storm etc. But is there really not enough room in the SB to have specific cards for these matchups rather than just 'these maindeck cards suck, might as well bring Sinkhole in?'

Here is where I am at:

1x Nether Spirit
4x The Rack
4x Shrieking Affliction
4x Liliana
4x Smallpox
4x Hymn to Tourach
21

12 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Factory
4 Urborg
24

I think the above 45 cards are a lock

Remaining 15 would be like
4 IoK
3 Innocent Blood
3 Thoughtseize
3 Raven's Crime
2 Sinkhole, Pox, Cursed Scroll, Collective Brutality, Last Hope, etc

so:

8 Racks
24 Lands
27 Cheap disruption (cmc < 4)
1 Nether spirit
0 Dark Ritual

It just makes so much sense:

- Playing 4 Drops in your Smallpox / Liliana deck is extremely suspect because in many cases you will simply not have the resources to cast them
- Playing Dark Ritual in an attrition deck is awful because it makes your number of bad topdecks astronomical (you're already playing a ton of discard spells)
- If you cut the 4 drops then there isn't much of a reason to play Ritual anymore either
- 9 threats + factory might seem like a lot, but in a deck with 10+ discard spells you don't want to have a very low threat density because then you will lose games to your opponent having a higher number of relevant topdecks than you

4 Leyline is a lock for the SB
3-4 Ratchet Bomb too because you need outs to chalice of the void
2-3 Pithing Needle because it's just too good vs random stuff like Thespian's Stage, Sneak Attack

I also want to see how many Field of Ruin the manabase can support, but maybe this is too greedy.

Obv this isn't be the only way to build the deck considering Adachi Ryosuke's somewhat-recent success with Chains of Mephistopheles, Crucible, Phyrexian Totem etc but I like the way this version plays

https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/developing-legacy/574535-deck-primer-rack-pox-mono-black-tempo

[Mr. Safety]

@kombatkiwi, I totally agree. Trying to control every resource is not easy, and really not feasible. That is a big reason for only using wasteland as mana denial, and smallpox can pressure mana against land lite decks, but it's more for hand/board control (and an out to TNN.)

If this deck could consistently control all resources it would be DTB. As it stands, it's really a grindy control deck that operates well under a depraved game state.

[OmniStrata]

https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/developing-legacy/574535-deck-primer-rack-pox-mono-black-tempo

I love this idea 4 Poxes!! Sea Gate Wreckage is a no go for me. Ran into ugly situations where I couldn't pay the colorless... faq!!!:mad:

[Hardcore]

With all the brewing and testing people have done over the years it seems that;

*If you play Mono - B and want to draw cards then there is no better card than Dark Confidant. The drawback is that one can't really play Pox or Tombstalker in such a deck. Typical control decks run neither of those, however.
Kaya, ghost assassin is an alternative if you want to splash white.

*The dark side of drawing cards is virtual card advantage, and this is the classic Pox tactic. Thoughtseize and Inquisition are all praised but I have been seized and therapied to oblivion by non Pox opponents and still come back to defeat them. Card advantage in its pure form is the Hymn to Tourach.
Cards like To the Slaughter and toxic deluge are halfway there.

*For the Pox player focusing on land destruction there are four cards that work well together and should be in his dec. Not necessarily four of each however. Those are Crucible of Worlds, wasteland, sinkhole and Smallpox.


*Past Googling of tourney wins suggest that decks running two nether voids were more successful than those with only a singleton of the card.

[OmniStrata]

*For the Pox player focusing on land destruction there are four cards that work well together and should be in his dec. Not necessarily four of each however. Those are Crucible of Worlds, wasteland, sinkhole and Smallpox.


*Past Googling of tourney wins suggest that decks running two nether voids were more successful than those with only a singleton of the card.

Damn, I'll need another Void? But Enchant World kills itself off right? or was that changed like Legendary? When I got mine the high price was $400.00 now it's $1,000.00 WtH?!

[Hardcore]

Dunno about the enchant world, I think it simply was increased odds of drawing it.
A local guy have cast it twice against me (GB build) and those were effectively killers.

[OmniStrata]

ah, the world ruling: "This has the supertype world. When a world permanent enters the battlefield, any world permanents that were already on the battlefield are put into their owners' graveyards. This is a state-based action called the “world rule.” The new world permanent stays on the battlefield. If two world permanents enter the battlefield at the same time, they're both put into their owners' graveyards."
lots in the Mirage block.

I guess I could run a Trinisphere as backup. One game against a reanimator deck, I had both out... lol Mishras went to town. albeit was a slow... ride.... getting ... there... but a win is a win!:eek:

[Blastoderm]

Anyone playing Loam Pox? Don't know if that's discussed here, but I'm interested in building something with smallpox, sinkhole and recurring wastelands :)

[naynay666]

If you haven’t tried it- Quarterized Rack Pox is an awesome way to shake up a weekly. It isn’t better by any stretch of the imagination, but casting Pox is why I originally started playing Legacy in the first place.

24 lands
4 Pox
4 The Rack
4 Lily
4 Dark Rit
20 other cards. You know the steez.

The best advice for jamming this is to not be afraid to cast Lily into a FOW. If she eats it- good. Next turn’s Pox will hit extra hard. It also makes you care less about Daze, as it makes Pox hit harder.

I still prefer my brew of 0-1 Pox and 6 Walkers, but the classics are classic for a reason.

[streetMage]

Anyone playing Loam Pox? Don't know if that's discussed here, but I'm interested in building something with smallpox, sinkhole and recurring wastelands :) I've had good success with Loam Pox at a few locals. Can share a list if your interested. No sinkholes doe..

[LeonardoWilhelm]

Hi there guys.

What an interesting discussion. I've always wondered about such mechanics as well. Controlling all resources is incredibly difficult, I agree that the most 'logical' approach would be to focus on an unique resource and blow it to oblivion, which is what 'Rack Pox' does so well with hand disruption, for example.

With that in mind, I want to share my two cents on the matter, which goes the other way around, opposite to the more 'logical' and certain build. I run a Mono-Black Pox Prison build, a wide spread resource-denial list which is a little different from the 'standard' mono-black Pox Prison builds you see around;

Land (25)
1x Cabal Pit
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
4x Mishra's Factory
9x Swamp
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland

Enchantment (3)
1x Nether Void
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
1x The Abyss

Sorcery (16)
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
2x Sinkhole
3x Smallpox
3x Thoughtseize

Artifact (6)
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Pithing Needle
1x Trinisphere

Instant (6)
3x Dark Ritual
3x Fatal Push

Planeswalker (3)
3x Liliana of the Veil

Creature (1)
1x Nether Spirit

Sideboard (15)
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
2x Dread of Night
2x Engineered Plague
2x Extirpate
2x Massacre
1x Phyrexian Totem
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Tormod's Crypt


This is tailored to my metagame, which is strongly creature-based, but with a few modifications, it could easily become a more generic list.

As you can see, this is a wide, resource denial list. It attacks lands, hands, creatures and dreams. My first build test was heavily focused on hand disruption, but I found the strategy to be way predictable. When the person I was playing against knew that I was playing 'a kind of mono-black discard deck', he then would change his way of playing. He had information. He knew I would discard his cards, put 2 'The Racks' in play, a Lilly and maybe a 'Ensnaring Bridge' along the way, or something similar.

Here is where I think Prison-Pox shines. It is WAY wider. The opponent doesn't know where the next hit is going to come from. Will it be a 'Sinkhole' on his last basic Island? Will it be an amazingly random 'Hymn to Tourach'? Will it be a Fatal Push on his creature or a 'Night of Soul's Betrayal', shutting 90% of his creatures down? Will it even be a 'Trinisphere', making his cantrips and creatures WAY LESS good?

That sense of 'randomness' is a very powerful strategy which is not easy to be prepared against. It can destroy everything. The deck runs just one creature, the rest of it is pure, evil destruction of all things.

The downside is the inconsistency. It can just not work sometimes. I still think it is worth the risk, though.

What do you guys think? Is there more Rack or Prison Pox around here? Do you guys play in bigger fields and get the larger picture of how your decks perform? I am kinda limited to Death & Taxes, Maverick, Burn and Storm around here. I would love to know.


Best regards.

[Hardcore]

I often hear the comment "-I don't know how to sideboard against Pox “. I run the rack and creatures as win conditions, the rest of the deck is disruption. Surgicals doesn't work as the deck lack critical components. If the opponent tries hide behind a bridge the double threat of ghasts and the rack will do him in. Destroying the rack only give a temporary relief until i find another.
Etc.

[ntropy]

Hi there guys.

What an interesting discussion. I've always wondered about such mechanics as well. Controlling all resources is incredibly difficult, I agree that the most 'logical' approach would be to focus on an unique resource and blow it to oblivion, which is what 'Rack Pox' does so well with hand disruption, for example.

With that in mind, I want to share my two cents on the matter, which goes the other way around, opposite to the more 'logical' and certain build. I run a Mono-Black Pox Prison build, a wide spread resource-denial list which is a little different from the 'standard' mono-black Pox Prison builds you see around;

Land (25)
1x Cabal Pit
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
4x Mishra's Factory
9x Swamp
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland

Enchantment (3)
1x Nether Void
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
1x The Abyss

Sorcery (16)
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
2x Sinkhole
3x Smallpox
3x Thoughtseize

Artifact (6)
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Pithing Needle
1x Trinisphere

Instant (6)
3x Dark Ritual
3x Fatal Push

Planeswalker (3)
3x Liliana of the Veil

Creature (1)
1x Nether Spirit

Sideboard (15)
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
2x Dread of Night
2x Engineered Plague
2x Extirpate
2x Massacre
1x Phyrexian Totem
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Tormod's Crypt


This is tailored to my metagame, which is strongly creature-based, but with a few modifications, it could easily become a more generic list.

As you can see, this is a wide, resource denial list. It attacks lands, hands, creatures and dreams. My first build test was heavily focused on hand disruption, but I found the strategy to be way predictable. When the person I was playing against knew that I was playing 'a kind of mono-black discard deck', he then would change his way of playing. He had information. He knew I would discard his cards, put 2 'The Racks' in play, a Lilly and maybe a 'Ensnaring Bridge' along the way, or something similar.

Here is where I think Prison-Pox shines. It is WAY wider. The opponent doesn't know where the next hit is going to come from. Will it be a 'Sinkhole' on his last basic Island? Will it be an amazingly random 'Hymn to Tourach'? Will it be a Fatal Push on his creature or a 'Night of Soul's Betrayal', shutting 90% of his creatures down? Will it even be a 'Trinisphere', making his cantrips and creatures WAY LESS good?

That sense of 'randomness' is a very powerful strategy which is not easy to be prepared against. It can destroy everything. The deck runs just one creature, the rest of it is pure, evil destruction of all things.

The downside is the inconsistency. It can just not work sometimes. I still think it is worth the risk, though.

What do you guys think? Is there more Rack or Prison Pox around here? Do you guys play in bigger fields and get the larger picture of how your decks perform? I am kinda limited to Death & Taxes, Maverick, Burn and Storm around here. I would love to know.


Best regards.
I love it when my opponent is just despondently flipping through their sideboard, wondering what to do. In fact I think knowing how to approach the pox match-up is a mark of a true legacy specialist. No one actually prepares, but knowing how to change their deck/approach is important.

I have always felt that Smallpox or Pox is best when you are pressuring everything. the Land sacrifice is meaningless if you don't continue pressuring with Wastelands and Sinkholes. The discard is meaningless if you don't continue pressuring with Hymns and Lilianas. This is why I never liked Smallpox in Modern 8rack, there was nothing to back up the land destruction, and sacrificing a land was a big cost. The difficulty is of course when things don't line up, or when your opponent gets out ahead. I'm on the verge of cutting Dark Rituals because they are real bad against decks that grind value (Delver, Blade, Pile, Loam variants) but that leaves me cold to decks that can surge ahead on resources or win super fast (Elves, Storm, S+S, Moon Stompy, fast combo). The struggle is real.

[Cybinary]

Just a heads up, looks like there might be a buyout of Chains of Mephistopheles happening...

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Legends/Chains+of+Mephistopheles#paper

[Hardcore]

Then and now Jayemdae Tome, Karn, Scion of Urza


One Karn may be nice. Like a colorless jace.

[OmniStrata]

Then and now Jayemdae Tome, Karn, Scion of Urza


One Karn may be nice. Like a colorless jace.

He'd prefer decks full of racks and cursed scrolls, but yes, he does feel like a colorless Jace, but no ultimate.:cry:

[Mr. Safety]

I actually really like the new Karn for Pox. Your opponent will likely give you lands, if given the option, and Pox can always use more lands. The fact that he is colorless allows for Wasteland and Factory's to pay for him as well, so it seems rather good honestly. The ultimate is really kind of 'blah', not even close to game-winning in Pox. I like the repeatable card advantage, I don't like that the ultimate isn't very good. Still, it does something very important for a Pox deck, and that's offset the global effects like Smallpox.

Now, Chainer's Torment...another quasi-potentially-good card, similar to the cards we got in recent sets, where 4 mana is definitely a lot but it seems quite good. It's at a minimum a 4 life drain/gain, and then likely at least a 5/5 or better token produced.

[Hardcore]

The sagas are cute but pretty useless. You have no real control over their timing.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

I really like new Karn. I'm thinking I'll try him as a 2x. He's exactly what we've been asking for - a card filtering engine. Granted he's slow and somewhat fragile, but still. The 'ultimate' is somewhat lackluster, but provides a win condition if nothing else. And creating creatures is a good way to stall games, etc. 4 mana is painful, but he'd be broken at 3, so fair enough. Makes me want to play the full 4 rituals. I feel like we'll see him tried out in a lot of decks - a colorless card advantage engine is what a lot of people seemed to be looking for.

shame about the Chains buyout. I checked and now they're $800 or so where they used to be about $400 :( makes me want to pick up a second Nether Void before the same thing happens there





RE the attack all angles - I like this and I feel like it is what Prison Pox wants to be doing. Our best cards (Lilliana, Smallpox) do exactly this. But let's not forget the angle from which we are not attacking: life total. I think that has been a Prison Pox weakness (or a strength, depending on how sadistic you are). I'm not sure what to do to fix it, or if it really needs fixing to any great extent, but I wanted to point that out.

Also, we want to attack all resources, but do so flexibly. Different matchups will have different resources that matter. So a sideboard needs to be tailored to that, I think. Anyway just some thoughts.

[Hardcore]

Life total is what Pox eats. I run four, and it has happened I have won games by repeated poxing. If that is not your way then cards like the rack should be considered. Alternatives exist, like Ankh of Mishra or forsaken wastes.

[non-inflammable]

I really like new Karn. I'm thinking I'll try him as a 2x. He's exactly what we've been asking for - a card filtering engine. Granted he's slow and somewhat fragile, but still. The 'ultimate' is somewhat lackluster, but provides a win condition if nothing else. And creating creatures is a good way to stall games, etc. 4 mana is painful, but he'd be broken at 3, so fair enough. Makes me want to play the full 4 rituals. I feel like we'll see him tried out in a lot of decks - a colorless card advantage engine is what a lot of people seemed to be looking for.

i like that his -2 makes an artifact creature since that will play nice with the abyss.
the only drawback is that it feels like "BIG" pox; you need to get to 4 mana or play rituals.

[Hardcore]

i like that his -2 makes an artifact creature since that will play nice with the abyss.
the only drawback is that it feels like "BIG" pox; you need to get to 4 mana or play rituals.

You will have no problems reaching four mana in a Smallpox only deck:)

[Fjaulnir]

The Japanese Pox Master did it again:

http://mtgkmc.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-557.html

[aslidsiksoraksi]

The Japanese Pox Master did it again:

http://mtgkmc.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-557.html


hell yeah. this guy is my hero

I noticed he always runs close to 26-27 lands, as opposed to the usual 24-25.

2x Lilliana Last Hope is interesting, as is 2x Phyrexian Totem - anyone have any luck with the latter?

2x Nether Void continues to the be standard for decks running void it seems like

Also the full 4 Innocent Blood but no Fatal Pushes

Aaaaaaaaaah so cool!

[Fjaulnir]

hell yeah. this guy is my hero

I noticed he always runs close to 26-27 lands, as opposed to the usual 24-25.

2x Lilliana Last Hope is interesting, as is 2x Phyrexian Totem - anyone have any luck with the latter?

2x Nether Void continues to the be standard for decks running void it seems like

Also the full 4 Innocent Blood but no Fatal Pushes

Aaaaaaaaaah so cool!

I have liked Last Hope (as at most 1 MD 1 SB) but that was in decks with Tombstalker main and Confidant in side :smile: I think for her to be worth a maindeck slot, her -2 should also do something in your deck.

Personally I have gone down to 1 Nether Void, but since I don't run Dark Rituals main it takes me longer to drop one. And maybe Japan just has more combo in its meta?

Also on a personal note, I like my 26 lands in Pox as well. I still manage to get manascrewed due to my own Smallpox effects (or colorscrewed due to Factory/Wasteland), so I wouldn't go lower than 25-26 for sure. A lot of lands are of course close enough to spells (Mishra, Waste, Maze of Ith in his case, ...) that I wouldn't count them 100% as a land.
I don't run 4 Dark Rits with my 26 lands though :tongue:

[aslidsiksoraksi]

I have liked Last Hope (as at most 1 MD 1 SB) but that was in decks with Tombstalker main and Confidant in side :smile: I think for her to be worth a maindeck slot, her -2 should also do something in your deck.

Personally I have gone down to 1 Nether Void, but since I don't run Dark Rituals main it takes me longer to drop one. And maybe Japan just has more combo in its meta?

Also on a personal note, I like my 26 lands in Pox as well. I still manage to get manascrewed due to my own Smallpox effects (or colorscrewed due to Factory/Wasteland), so I wouldn't go lower than 25-26 for sure. A lot of lands are of course close enough to spells (Mishra, Waste, Maze of Ith in his case, ...) that I wouldn't count them 100% as a land.
I don't run 4 Dark Rits with my 26 lands though :tongue:

Yeah I've been running 1 LiLH and have been very happy with her as well, though I haven't been running any creatures. I feel just the threat of the ultimate is fairly strong, especially in a deck that slows the game down as much as we do

That's good news, I've only got 1 Void :tongue: and there's very little combo here. He lost to combo in the finals though it looks like. Dang would have been cool to have a 1st place Pox in a big tourney.

That's a good call. I've been frustrated by missing land drops a lot lately, think I might go up a bit myself. I think the rituals are very good in his list though, with all the 3 drops. T1 Ritual Totem Thoughtseize is a spicy line too, as is T1 Ritual Totem, T2 Lili (though maybe Ritual Lili is more correct). I'm definitely gonna try out the totems with a few rituals.




BTW wanted to say i love your channel, thanks for being one of the few (only?) people regularly streaming Pox, I watch those videos religously :eek::eek:

[Hardcore]

He has some funny choices in his sideboard. I figure three Bitterblossom is useful against lands, but what are the obliterator and the fiend supposed to do?


4 Leyline of the Void》
3　Bitterblossom》
2　《Lost Legacy》
2　《Pithing Needle》
1　《Chains of Mephistopheles》
1 Ensnaring Bridge》
1　Necropolis Fiend》
1　Phyrexian Obliterator》

[aslidsiksoraksi]

I figured bitterblossom was against Lands and Depths and Control matchups in general...

The Fiend and Obliterator he's had on the board for a while. Not really sure... they're good in creature-heavy matchups? If you land an obliterator against a deck that relies on bolt to kill stuff that's prolly GG. And Fiend is repeatable removal... They seem unusual to me but hey

Fun fact: his deck name translate in Google Translate as "You do not know the Pox yet" :cool::cool::cool:

[aslidsiksoraksi]

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18761&d=317341&f=LE

2 top8s in one day??? what a day to be a Pox player

still on 2x Nether Void

This guy also running the 27 land mishmash that Ryosuke runs. Complete with Spawning Pool and Bojuka Bog, though with Port and Geier Reach instead of Ifnir Deadlands. My guess is Geier Reach is there because he's also running Chains

he follows Adachi with 2x Hymn. seeing a lot of lists with less than the 4x hymn, and 2x seems really low, but I've been on 3x for a while... interesting

Mastermind's Acquisition is the spiciest thing here I think, and he's got a sort of wishboard thing going... kinda interesting




It seems like Pox is bigger in Japan (I think this was a Japanese tournament too)? I wonder why that is? Comparing these and the other Japanese lists, they seem to have a sort of core list that looks something like:
Nonlands:
4 blood
4 thoughtseize
2 hymn
3-4 ritual
4 smallpox
4 liliana
2 nether void

assuming 4 rituals and 26 lands that leaves about 10 slots free for the various mishmash of pox 1-ofs. That almost always includes at least 1 toxic deluge, 1 bridge, 1-2 scrolls, 1 crucible, 1 chains... but there are a ton of others with varying degrees of spiciness. i honestly think the idea of running a tutor in there is quite smart, letting you get the particular part of the mishmash that will break the game for you

the lands also have a set of flexes it looks like:
4 wasteland
4 factory
4 urborg
8-10 basics
1 tabernacle
but then to get to 26-7 there's a whole bunch of 1-ofs: cabal pit, maze, spawning pool, port, sanitarium, etc

thought about this way, what jumps out to me is that 10 is a whole ton of flex spots. can use those 10 spots or so to focus the deck, in this or that direction for the different metas though. and i kind of love that there is so much room but it also speaks to the fact that pox is not a finished or highly tested archetype.

anyway, nothing groundbreaking here, but just thought i'd share some thoughts.

[Hardcore]

Yes, there could be something of a Japanese school of Pox. Given the language barriers that is quite likely.

"It is a Pox deck, Jim, but not as we know it!"

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Kind of wrote this mostly for myself, but just for fun, here's a tournament report from todays little weekly:

I was inspired by the Japanese lists and tried to run something similar, with higher land count and more creature-oriented removal (ie no sinkholes). My list is almost Ryosuke's, with a few small shifts (I didn't have a second Void or LiLH so I used Crucible and NoSB instead, for example). Here it is:

4 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

2 Cursed Scroll
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Phyrexian Totem
1 Crucible of Worlds

1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Nether Void

4 Smallpox
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Innocent Blood
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Beseech the Queen

4 Dark Ritual
1 Fatal Push

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Cabal Pit
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Spawning Pool
1 Maze of Ith
10 Swamp

SB
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Bitterblossom
2 Tombstalker
2 Pithing Needle
2 Lost Legacy
2 Collective Brutality
1 Ratchet Bomb

Overall I really quite liked playing this list. Probably this is just psychological junk, but for the first time I felt like I was playing a tuned deck, as opposed to a bunch of cool black cards. Not that I didn't make a ton of mistakes all night, but hey. Totem was cool, though mine always got swords-ed, and more lands was actually pretty nice. My SB is more different than his - Brutality is a concession to the presence of burn at the store and I've been liking Tombstalker so I wanted to keep him around. Also I don't have the creatures he uses (and Obliterator seems weird... :eyebrow:). Anyway here we go!

Round 1: Grixis Delver

Game 1 he stalls on lands and a Smallpox puts him on nothing. I’m low on lands too, with just a Totem and a swamp. Eventually he lands a pyromancer, but I land a Bridge. He can’t seem to do much to get through, and when I drop a Cursed Scroll followed by a Liliana he just scoops em up.

SB: out 2 Totem, 2 Hymn, in 2 Brutality, 1 Tombstalker, 1 Ratchet Bomb

Game 2 gets mega grindy. He’s got enough lands to make stuff happen, but I keep killing his threats. At one point he loses a Gurmag to forgetting to pay for Tabernacle. I drop NoSB onto an empty board. the game grinds even longer but the end is near for him since almost all his creatures do nothing at this point. I start hitting him with a 1/1 factory, which is eventually joined by its brother to take the game

Games 2-0, Matches 1-0

Round 2: Sneak and Show

I hate this matchup so much and seem to constantly lose to this deck. Game 1 I think he’s on Grixis Delver so I go for Ritual Crucible so I can wasteland lock him. But he gets turn 2 Griselbrand. Innocent Blood not so good against draw-7s and free counters.

SB: out 2 blood, 2 deluge, 1 push, 1 NoSB, 1 nether void, 1 crucible, in 2 needles, 2 lost legacy, 2 collective brutality, 2 tombstalkers

Game 2 is the first game I have ever won of this matchup. We both mull to 5. I get turn 1 needle on Sneak attack. Follow up with turn 2 hymn for his show and tell. rip a second hymn to tear his hand to nothing. draw Beseech and yes I do Beseech the dark queen of Pox herself: Liliana shows up trying to keep him off everything. Then I rip Tombstalker to close it out. If everything goes right we can win? Tips on this matchup appreciated

Game 3 he has turn 0 Leyline of Sanctity. I have turn 1 Liliana of the Veil. I manage to hold him off for a bit and get a few factory beats. He drops a Sneak Attack but without mana to push anything through. He’s got two cards in hand, and I’ve got 3 mana including Urborg and a Maze. I plus Liliana, then drop another and plus it - we’re both hellbent, and I just need him not to topdeck a creature. Top card is Emrakul. Game over.

Games 3-2, Matches 1-1

Round 3: Esper Blade

This guy has to be sick of playing against me and sighs every time. I manage to consistently beat him, so I guess there’s a reason for that. Game 1 he kept a 1 land hand and gets wastelanded and loses. Don’t know why he did that against Pox but hey I’ll take the wins where I get them

SB: out 2 dark ritual, 1 fatal push, 1 LiLH, 1 Nether Void; in 2 Bitterblossm, 2 needle, 1 bomb

Game 2 I stall him a bit but he lands his own LiLH. I have to needle it since he has a swords for my totem. I drop a scroll and start pinging him a little. He gets to four lands and I have smallpox but he doesn’t have a creature so I let it go. I think in Jace matchups, keeping them off 4 lands is a priority, cuz he drops Jace next turn. I am able to sort of pressure it with scroll and factory, but he kills the scroll and swords the factory. Jace eventually takes over the game and the ult kills me.

Game 3 we go back and forth in the early turns, both just building mana. I get to 5 while he’s kind of stuck on 3. I smallpox him, he forces, and then I drop Liliana. I try to kill him with Totem but he has the swords. I then drop Pithing Needle. He has a strand and lets it resolve… I’m not sure whether to try for the stone rain or needle that giant jerk Jace. I go for the land and I think it was just demoralizing him so much cuz he just kinda crumpled, even though he drew lands afterwards. Liliana is doing her thing, but he eventually gets the Jace. Jace is too little too late though, as I have double-factory beats which kill Jace and then kill him.

Games 5-3, Matches 2-1

Round 4: Elves

This guy is new to the deck and plays very slow which is kind of frustrating but understandable. Elves is hard to play. First game he mulls to 5 while I keep 6 (my first hand was 1 of each Lili and 5 lands). I kill a few features, then set up scroll and Liliana. GG

SB: out 2 hymn, 2 totem, 1 crucible, 1 nether void, 1 inquisition, in 2 needle, 1 ratchet bomb, 2 collective brutality, 2 bitterblossom (not sure about blossoms, or cutting the discard... )

Game 2 I have a bizarre opener with ritual and double bitterblossom. I consider going for turn 2 ritual blossom, but it seems dumb, especially as i draw tabernacle. So i go for the Tabernacle plan. Unfortunately, Tabernacle can be neutered by Cradle. So in the battle of expensive lands, I ultimately lose. Misplay of the day also was using Beseech the Queen for a Toxic Deluge when I should have just gotten Wasteland. Little men beats eventually beat me, though it takes him a while. I never play a bitterblossom, worries that the life loss will hurt me too much and it won’t be worth it behind tabernacle. Honestly blossom feels bad in this matchup, and i think i'd rather have a different card.

Game 3 I go ritual LiLH, pretty much the best opener we can get against them. My hand doesn’t have double black though, and I kind of just pick off stuff and keep him slow. Eventually I get her ult, but I’ve stupidly used all my removal. He Natural Orders for Progenitus, and would be dead to a sac effect. I have 2 smallpox, but only 1 swamp. I do the math though, and with factory and the zombies I can still race him, unless he drops 2-3 elves to block with. Instead, next turn he uses another Natural Order to find Craterhoof. But Craterhoof + Progenitus is not enough to kill me, and even after a zombie dies to keep me alive, the rest swing back and take the game. Turns out Liliana is the queen of Pox, no matter which incarnation.

Games 7-4, Matches 3-1




In the end I was 7-4 in games, 3-1 in matches. Any advice on sideboarding much appreciated. Enjoy!

PS if anyone knows how to spoiler things so they don't take up so much room just let me know, I feel kind of bad clogging up the board with this stuff... :rolleyes:

[Hardcore]

Kudos to you for testing a new deck! I think you were hurt by not owning av second Nether void. You could try adding a trinisphere.

[Mr. Safety]

Nice showing, it was obviously a good learning experience. it might be 27 lands literally, but 12 of them are more akin to spells with Pool, Factory, Wasteland, Maze.

Obliterator MURDERS anything trying to attack short of Marit Lage or Emrakul. They sacrifice permanents for every point of damage to him, so he either completely fogs opponents (like Ensnaring Bridge) or he gets in for damage uncontested. Having trample means they could block with a Deathrite Shaman, lose the shaman, another permanent, AND 3 life. I can see it coming in against decks where you need more threats also, particularly grindy mid-range matchups like Czech Pile and Jund. I prefer the recurring value of Bitterblossom, but that's just me.

My impression is that the Japanese meta he tunes for is full of fair creature-based decks, which is why he opts to cut Hymns for more removal like Innocent Blood and Maze of Ith. He's even playing Deluge maindeck, and no Thoughtseize (a concession to Burn being popular? He's on 4 Inquisition, a much better card against burn.)

[ntropy]

My impression is that the Japanese meta he tunes for is full of fair creature-based decks, which is why he opts to cut Hymns for more removal like Innocent Blood and Maze of Ith. He's even playing Deluge maindeck, and no Thoughtseize (a concession to Burn being popular? He's on 4 Inquisition, a much better card against burn.)

I've toyed with Inquisition over Thoughtseize, but Jace keeps rearing his ugly head, and I switch back. I keep 2 Deluge in main as well. I cut them for one tournament a regretted it so hard.

[Hardcore]

Obliterator seems too defensive. He means inevitability in an aggro deck, but we are not exactly playing suicide black.

[OmniStrata]

Kudos to you for testing a new deck! I think you were hurt by not owning av second Nether void. You could try adding a trinisphere.

That's actually what I'm trying out. 7 cmc cantrips sounds evil.

[OmniStrata]

In the end I was 7-4 in games, 3-1 in matches. Any advice on sideboarding much appreciated. Enjoy!


Dark Rituals, all 4 should go out if you're grinding. I'd board out the removal vs. fast decks. The card disadvantage isn't worth the speed. I'm facing Miracles and Reanimator a lot and that philosophy works. I'd also consider siding out a swamp or 2 if you're keeping the rits. Missing later game land drops is ok with 4 rits in deck.:cool:

[ntropy]

Round 2: Sneak and Show

I hate this matchup so much and seem to constantly lose to this deck. Game 1 I think he’s on Grixis Delver so I go for Ritual Crucible so I can wasteland lock him. But he gets turn 2 Griselbrand. Innocent Blood not so good against draw-7s and free counters.

SB: out 2 blood, 2 deluge, 1 push, 1 NoSB, 1 nether void, 1 crucible, in 2 needles, 2 lost legacy, 2 collective brutality, 2 tombstalkers

Game 2 is the first game I have ever won of this matchup. We both mull to 5. I get turn 1 needle on Sneak attack. Follow up with turn 2 hymn for his show and tell. rip a second hymn to tear his hand to nothing. draw Beseech and yes I do Beseech the dark queen of Pox herself: Liliana shows up trying to keep him off everything. Then I rip Tombstalker to close it out. If everything goes right we can win? Tips on this matchup appreciated

Game 3 he has turn 0 Leyline of Sanctity. I have turn 1 Liliana of the Veil. I manage to hold him off for a bit and get a few factory beats. He drops a Sneak Attack but without mana to push anything through. He’s got two cards in hand, and I’ve got 3 mana including Urborg and a Maze. I plus Liliana, then drop another and plus it - we’re both hellbent, and I just need him not to topdeck a creature. Top card is Emrakul. Game over.



In my experience, this is how this matchup goes. Their combo just goes right over the top of our disruption. Your game 2 sounds about right. If everything goes well, we can win. I think actual lock pieces help. Ensnaring bridges lock out their critters, and Trinispheres or Nether Voids, or even Sphere of Resistance can stop them if you keep them off lands. They do run Lotus petals, Sol Lands and Spirit Guides, though, so the harder the lock, the better. Personally I'm considering replacing my Tombstalkers with Trinispheres in the board, so my plan vs. them now is -2 Toxic Deluge, -2 Ratchet Bomb -3 Innocent Blood, +2 Ensnaring Bridge +2 Collective Brutality +3 Trinisphere. I think I want the Dark rituals to power out the Trinis and Bridges, but I could trim 1 or 2 to go up on Pithing Needle as well. It still may not be enough without a fast clock.

[LeonardoWilhelm]

Well;
Those Japanese lists are way more aggro than the 'standard' mono-black Pox, which is most likely meta-related. I rather playing a more 'sorcery speed control deck' way myself, though. Anyway, it is really nice to see how the decks have a 'life of their own', they change considering the local metagame, local culture and so on.

@aslidsiksoraksi;
I am glad you had fun! The 'Sneak & Show' match is quite difficult for a non-blue mono colored deck like ours. 'Pithing Needle', 'Extirpate', 'Lost Legacy' and hard locks are the answers I find more useful when sideboarding against them. 'The Abyss' is even more insane in this matchup, by the way. If it resolves, we win.

I am going to try a new version of the deck with only 3 'Hymn to Tourachs' and a few other subtle changes this week, so I will report it to you here when possible.


Best regards.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Dark Rituals, all 4 should go out if you're grinding. I'd board out the removal vs. fast decks. The card disadvantage isn't worth the speed. I'm facing Miracles and Reanimator a lot and that philosophy works. I'd also consider siding out a swamp or 2 if you're keeping the rits. Missing later game land drops is ok with 4 rits in deck.:cool:

Yes I think I agree with this... I took out a couple against blade, but I think I could have just cut all four. I like them against Delver though, we need to be a bit faster there I think.


Obliterator seems good in matchups where they don't have Swords I guess, but it just feels so slow... if it weren't such an expensive card I'd try it out, it's so cool. Haha I remember playing Phyrexian Totem and someone read it and said 'oh it's a reverse obliterator' and I was just like :eyebrow: no dude, obliterator is a reverse negator :wink:


Glad to see it's not just me struggling with Sneak and Show :(

@ntropy I think the needles are very helpful. they shut down sneaks and turn off griselbrand if you want them to. I think we have to be proactive, can't just sit there and wait for them to draw a Sneak off the top and use it, and needle does that. Lost Legacy on show and tell, needle on sneaks, and maybe we can win if we start pressuring.



Gonna try the deck out again tonight, hopefully report back soon!

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Today was win-a-box Legacy! (spoiler: I did not win a box). I took the same list as above. Maybe should have changed it since this meta is more combo-ish, but I don't play at this place that often



Round 1: Jeskai Delver

This guy is the resident badass. He talks hella smack, plays very angrily, his deck is all black-bordered (so is mine, but it’s less impressive if you don’t run duals)... you know the type. He actually made top 64 at GP Vegas, so he can back it up. Needless to say, I am excited to put the special Pox pain on him.

Game 1 I get an early inquisition seeing an explosives (I take something else) but then there’s a lot of nothing back and forth. He eventually lands a True-Name. I drop a bridge. He must have shuffled away the explosives cuz he doesn’t do much. I then drop Liliana, and a scroll a few turns later. He concedes, saying somethin like “you can have this one, I’ll take the next two”

SB: out 4 rituals, 2 totems, 1 bojuka bog; in 2 brutality, 2 needle, 2 bitterblossom, 1 ratchet bomb (kudos to omnistrata for the 'cut rituals' tech)

Game 2 he goes for an early stoneforge and has countermagic for my removal. I drop a hail mary bridge, but he drops a Jace. He uses to brainstorm, and I have a Liliana so I’m thinking maybe this works out, but he get his explosives on 3, blows up all my good stuff, and I’m dead in two turns.

Game 3 I go turn 1 inquisition seeing swords and three snapcaster. I take a snap. All i really cared about was spell pierce or force of will though, because turn 2 I play bitterblossom. Tokens start taking over the game ever so slowly. he’s a little light on lands too. He has Karakas and plays a Vendilion Clique (which, oddly enough, is legendary). My hand at this point is double smallpox. He bottoms one, and I draw another :) Pox baby. I Pox and he sacs the karakas after bouncing clique. Replays clique, this time with a Jitte. He manages to get a hit in, but I kill Clique with an innocent blood. Jitte kills two tokens, but the rest get there while my ratchet bomb sits on 3 waiting for him to drop the Jace in his hand.

After the game he goes tells his friends how bad my deck is. Well you lost buddy so...:cool::cool::cool:

Games 2-1, Matches 1-0

Round 2: Sneak and Show

Oh yeah my favorite matchup. Game 1 I put on decent pressure with Pit and Spawning pool, and have him in 2 more turns when boom sneak in emrakul! I am left with nothing. I drop a few lands and eventually he finds another one to finish the job.

SB: out 3 blood, 1 push, 1 scroll, 1 crucible, 1 NoSB, 2 deluge, 1 LiLH; in 2 bitterblossom, 2 tombstalker, 2 collective brutality, 2 pithing needle, 2 lost legacy

Game 2 I get an early bitterblossom and start making a couple dudes… but Emrakul sneaks into play. I am one permanent short of keeping the blossom after annihilator. Maybe I should have held on to a wasteland? To be honest, not sure it would have made a difference as Blossom is slow pressure and his deck is all cantrips, so he’s likely to find another way to kill me. GG

Games 2-3, Matches 1-1

Round 3: Sneak and Show

Game 1 I am feeling spicy as I have the ritual Lili hand we all dream of. So boom here we go, we’re riding the black lightning. But my face drops as the next turn he goes basic island, lotus petal, preordain. It’s a sad day when you play against two of them in a row. I inquisition my next turn and his hand is all griselbrands and nothing to put them in play. But hey, he’s gonna draw a Show and tell next turn... 7/7 flying lifelink ain’t nothing to Lili can’t handle. But 14 cards is pretty good. I kill griselbrand, next turn he shows omniscience and Emrakul. GG

SB as above

Game 2 I inquisition him early. His hand is Griselbrands and cantrips, I take his brainstorm. I needle Griselbrand, reasoning that Sneaking Griselbrand is lame if it’s just a one-time attacker. Not long after I land a Tombstalker and have him on a clock. Sure enough, he gets his sneak attack. I am one turn off from killing him (though tbh he could have snuck grisel as a blocker)... he sneaks both emmy and griselbrand in at once. That’s all she wrote.

There’s time in the round so he offers to play a third. I figure why not. This time I feel strong: my hand is ritual, totem, nether void, and a few lands. I go ritual totem, planning to go for turn 3 void and hopefully kill him soon after. But he plays a Grim Lavamancer. Since when does this card exist in show and tell??? Needless to say I can’t void with that thing around, since it wrecks my negator plan. So I stall a bit. In the meantime he drops a sneak attack. I Lost legacy his emrakuls. But eventually Smallpox kills the lavaguy, I drop the void, and we’re at sneak attack vs a bitterblossom, void, and a totem. Void is doing good work, though kind of strangling me too. He sneaks in Griselbrands, but my tokens block them… I have him at one life. But then the next round pairings are up. I think he could have won by showing a griselbrand into play (which he had the cards for), since I don’t have a way to kill it… but he said he was dead so maybe I’ll just trust him on that :wink::tongue:

Games 2-5, Matches 1-2

I was paired against a guy who had quit the tournament but not dropped. but I was tired anyway so it's all good.



I really like Bitterblossom. Might go to 3-4. I do not like sneak and show. I like that the Japanese lists have a little more aggression with Totems in the maindeck, that's been feeling pretty good, even if it just dies to removal most of the time. In retrospect Tabernacle should come out in SnS matchup, and I may as well bring in Ratchet Bomb. Maybe some innocent blood should stay? The deck feels good overall though. All the SnS matchups felt vaguely winnable, but they just have the ability to nuts right off the top of the deck. Not sure what else to do about it except more lock pieces as others have suggested. I've won every non-SnS match with this build so far tho, so that's something XD

In conclusion: I love pox thank you very much for reading.

[Mr. Safety]

I could say 'I told you so..' on Bitterblossom, so, well, I told you so! I've been keen on Bitterblossom for a while for Pox. It creates value every turn for no further investment, letting you Wasteland/Pox with impunity, but retaining pressure. It was incredible against Miracles in the Top era, and it gets even better now that most of the popular decks don't have an answer outside of counterspells. Maybe we should play a few discard spells to make sure it resolves? :cool:

I would say BB is maindeck worthy x4. I wish I had 4 copies, I would likely be playing Pox if that were the case. I'll, as always, put my plug in for Cabal Therapy if anyone decides to maindeck BB...all the value!!!

[ntropy]

Yah. my Bitterblossom was great last night, I'm already shopping for another one. I put the one in the main over the Nether Spirit. How do you all feel about Bitterblossom in the Burn/U/R Delver matchup? How much of a Liability is it?

[aslidsiksoraksi]

yes that has been my fear with bitterblossom as well; i know there's a burn player around and a U/R delver player as well

maybe it's good enough in other matches to not matter in this case though, and you can always side it out. also bear in mind that if it's producing blockers then it saves you life every turn against a delver/etc, so while you're still susceptible to burn spells you're stalling effectively. I'm thinking I may cut totems (also bad against burn) and maybe something else to go to 2-3 maindeck, and i'm trying to think what I'd cut for a couple therapies...

[Hardcore]

BB is definitely a sideboard card, as is therapies. Just note the composition of the Japanese lists and the type of opposition they faced.

[naynay666]

Hell yeah Pox is the coolest. For everybody posting write-ups and results- THANK YOU! It’s awesome and I feel it helps all of us.

The two Japanese lists are both awesome and spicy.

Irei Kazuo
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18761&d=317341&f=LE
1st BR Reanimator
2nd Grixis Delver
3/4 Grixis Delver
3/4 Grixis Delver (Pyromancer)
5/8 D&T
5/8 Grixis Delver (Pyromancer)
5/8 Pox (Irei Kazuo)
5/8 UR Delver

Adachi Ryosuke
http://mtgkmc.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-557.html
1st Tendrils
2nd Pox (Adachi Ryosuke)
3rd UB Reanimator
4th BUG Midrange (Hymn & Delvers)
5th D&T
6th 4c Control
7th GR Lands
8th Aluren

To sum up the lists:
MD
27 lands (1 w/Crucible) 8-9 Swamps, full sets of the normal 3, and every other land you can think of up to and including Tabernacle.
1 Tutor. Either the classic Beseech the Queen or the new hotness Mastermind’s Acquisition. (2BB Sorcery tutor or wish.)
1-2 Ensnaring Bridge (1 has 1 SB)
4 Thoughtseize / 0 IOK
4 Innocent Blood / 0 Fatal Push
2 Nether Void$
0 or 2 Phyrexian Totems
0 Sinkholes
1 Deluge
2 Hymns is interesting but confuses me a little bit. One top 8 list was 75% creature decks and the combo deck you don’t want hymns against. The other was as diverse as it gets with 3 non-pox decks running 3 copies of Hymn. Sans the Reanimator decks I like Hymn against the rest of those top 8s.
0 -1 Nether Spirit
0-1 Empty the Pits (Irei plays both. Adachi, neither)

SB
Both rock 3 Bitterblossoms and 1-2 Lost Legacy.
The rest is normal with some small exceptions.
The Kazuo list rocks a lot of singleton targets for the Acquisition. Sorcerous Spyglass, Underworld Dreams and Smokestack were the most notable.

[][][]

Most of our lists run 8 win-cons MD.

Irei’s list runs 8 main deck + 5 wishcons out the SB.
Adachi has 11 main deck + 5 in the board.

I am currently on 12 MD and 0 SB and have been loving it. I am on the fence with Empty the Pits as it is horrible in the first 1/5th of your deck. So I might be down to 11 soon. I think I might need some Bitterblossoms in my life again. I played 1 alongside Worm’s Harvest against CounterTop and it always shined, but I rarely brought it in anywhere else.

When do you usually bring it in?

[][][]

How do we feel about Mastermind’s Acquisition? I never tried Beseech the Queen but always wanted to. Having a wishboard is very tempting, but feels too cute.

[][][]

Also my Sneak & Show sideboard plan is to Extirpate either Show, Sneak or (occasionally) Grizzy, Needle Sneak or Grizzy, and Abyss/Bridge for extra protection. Extirpating/Surgicaling both Show and Sneak is game over. Everything else is a soft lock.

In
1 The Abyss
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Extirpate
2-3 Pithing Needle

Out
2 Fatal Push
1 Liliana TLH
1 Ob Nix
1 Bontu’s Last
1 IOK
1-2 something else

I love this matchup. Some random SCG event however long ago I played against it rounds 1, 2 and 3 and beat it 2-1 each time. 3 rounds later I was 3-3 but damn- those Sneak and Show victories were awesome. Mishra’s Factories were the mvps.

[Hardcore]

Hell yeah Pox is the coolest. For everybody posting write-ups and results- THANK YOU! It’s awesome and I feel it helps all of us.

The two Japanese lists are both awesome and spicy.

Irei Kazuo
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18761&d=317341&f=LE
1st BR Reanimator
2nd Grixis Delver
3/4 Grixis Delver
3/4 Grixis Delver (Pyromancer)
5/8 D&T
5/8 Grixis Delver (Pyromancer)
5/8 Pox (Irei Kazuo)
5/8 UR Delver

Adachi Ryosuke
http://mtgkmc.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-557.html
1st Tendrils
2nd Pox (Adachi Ryosuke)
3rd UB Reanimator
4th BUG Midrange (Hymn & Delvers)
5th D&T
6th 4c Control
7th GR Lands
8th Aluren

To sum up the lists:
MD
27 lands (1 w/Crucible) 8-9 Swamps, full sets of the normal 3, and every other land you can think of up to and including Tabernacle.
1 Tutor. Either the classic Beseech the Queen or the new hotness Mastermind’s Acquisition. (2BB Sorcery tutor or wish.)
1-2 Ensnaring Bridge (1 has 1 SB)
4 Thoughtseize / 0 IOK
4 Innocent Blood / 0 Fatal Push
2 Nether Void$
0 or 2 Phyrexian Totems
0 Sinkholes
1 Deluge
2 Hymns is interesting but confuses me a little bit. One top 8 list was 75% creature decks and the combo deck you don’t want hymns against. The other was as diverse as it gets with 3 non-pox decks running 3 copies of Hymn. Sans the Reanimator decks I like Hymn against the rest of those top 8s.
0 -1 Nether Spirit
0-1 Empty the Pits (Irei plays both. Adachi, neither)

SB
Both rock 3 Bitterblossoms and 1-2 Lost Legacy.
The rest is normal with some small exceptions.
The Kazuo list rocks a lot of singleton targets for the Acquisition. Sorcerous Spyglass, Underworld Dreams and Smokestack were the most notable.

[][][]

Most of our lists run 8 win-cons MD.

Irei’s list runs 8 main deck + 5 wishcons out the SB.
Adachi has 11 main deck + 5 in the board.

I am currently on 12 MD and 0 SB and have been loving it. I am on the fence with Empty the Pits as it is horrible in the first 1/5th of your deck. So I might be down to 11 soon. I think I might need some Bitterblossoms in my life again. I played 1 alongside Worm’s Harvest against CounterTop and it always shined, but I rarely brought it in anywhere else.

When do you usually bring it in?

[][][]

How do we feel about Mastermind’s Acquisition? I never tried Beseech the Queen but always wanted to. Having a wishboard is very tempting, but feels too cute.

[][][]

Also my Sneak & Show sideboard plan is to Extirpate either Show, Sneak or (occasionally) Grizzy, Needle Sneak or Grizzy, and Abyss/Bridge for extra protection. Extirpating/Surgicaling both Show and Sneak is game over. Everything else is a soft lock.

In
1 The Abyss
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Extirpate
2-3 Pithing Needle

Out
2 Fatal Push
1 Liliana TLH
1 Ob Nix
1 Bontu’s Last
1 IOK
1-2 something else

I love this matchup. Some random SCG event however long ago I played against it rounds 1, 2 and 3 and beat it 2-1 each time. 3 rounds later I was 3-3 but damn- those Sneak and Show victories were awesome. Mishra’s Factories were the mvps.

Tnx. I'll keep that thinking on the matchup in mind.

[streetMage]

Is there dedicated Loam Pox thread around?
I come here all the time but feel like this is just not the thread for it....
I've come to realize its a different deck than what you guys are trying to accomplish here... who do I have to talk to about getting another thread started if there isn't one?

Thanks

[Mr. Safety]

Is there dedicated Loam Pox thread around?
I come here all the time but feel like this is just not the thread for it....
I've come to realize its a different deck than what you guys are trying to accomplish here... who do I have to talk to about getting another thread started if there isn't one?

Thanks

Post it in the New and Developmental Decks section. It's a recognized archetype, but one that has fallen enough out of favor that it should probably be re-booted. There is discussion in this thread for Loam Pox, most likely 10+ pages back, but it's not common enough to really discuss. Starting a new thread would be a good direction.

There is a Jund Depths thread in N/D as well that is basically Loam Pox but with Punishing Fire and an Entomb package. It's a pretty cool deck, and maybe your idea of Loam Pox is close enough to post in that thread as well. The red isn't really necessary and the deck is closer to Pox than say R/G lands.

I've done quite a bit of Loam Pox back in the day, and I always liked Crop Rotation (with and without Depths/Stage) so you can have instant access to Bog, Karakas, Wasteland, Maze of Ith, Mishra's Factory, and Cabal Pit. I also really liked 3-4 Bloodghast because of how easy it was to get them into the graveyard and back again with all of the landfall triggers (and I love Cabal Therapy...) I played 3 loams usually, 4 being a little too many. What steered me away from Bg pox was that I ended up with a 4x Hexmage list for Depths and found that Smallpox and the typical slow grind plan wasn't very good, certainly not as good as mono-black pox, and I instead went in the direction of mid-range value along with the Depths plan (Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman, etc.) Loam Pox needs a lot of lands to operate, like 26-27, and if you skimp you end up not having the right colors after Smallpox and the utility lands get added. But you also run the risk of only drawing lands, and those lands not doing enough. I highly suggest an Entomb package for things like Raven's Crime, Bloodghast/Nether Spirit, Cabal Therapy, Loam, and utility lands if you already have loam in hand/grave. It really pulls the deck together.

Good luck!

[OmniStrata]

I used to Loam Pox, but the color inconsistency and budget requirements killed me. That and GY hate is too good at shutdown.

[Mr. Safety]

I used to Loam Pox, but the color inconsistency and budget requirements killed me. That and GY hate is too good at shutdown.

I agree with all of this.

[naynay666]

Yeah I always wondered why Loam Pox didn’t have it’s own thread. It’s closer to Land variants than Pox.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah I always wondered why Loam Pox didn’t have it’s own thread. It’s closer to Land variants than Pox.

It is now, but 'back in the day' Loam was definitely a Pox engine. Punishing Fire is a better removal engine than Smallpox and Gamble is a tutor for Loam/PFire/Grove/Depths combo pieces. They are both control decks, just attacking a different axis. The Depths combo is what made Loam Pox obsolete because it gave an alternative to black control: a fast combo that just killed opponent's rather than grinding card advantage.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Hey gang, going to a Legacy for Staples event tomorrow. Got a tip from a guy who plays regularly at the store that there will be a lot of lands and 8 moon. I don't think I've played against those much... any tips? sideboard tech?

I figure they're both kinda bad matchups. Lands has Loam, which is a beating, and 8 moon has Chandra, which is hard to interact with. Blood Moon isn't game over for us, but it does shut down our wincons. Maybe I'll maindeck a pithing needle against Chandra and Stage...

[Erdvermampfa]

Hey gang, going to a Legacy for Staples event tomorrow. Got a tip from a guy who plays regularly at the store that there will be a lot of lands and 8 moon. I don't think I've played against those much... any tips? sideboard tech?

I figure they're both kinda bad matchups. Lands has Loam, which is a beating, and 8 moon has Chandra, which is hard to interact with. Blood Moon isn't game over for us, but it does shut down our wincons. Maybe I'll maindeck a pithing needle against Chandra and Stage...

Hero's Downfall and Cranial Extraction. I've been wondering how you Pox guys can succeed against Jace without the initial card anyways.

[Hardcore]

Hey gang, going to a Legacy for Staples event tomorrow. Got a tip from a guy who plays regularly at the store that there will be a lot of lands and 8 moon. I don't think I've played against those much... any tips? sideboard tech?

I figure they're both kinda bad matchups. Lands has Loam, which is a beating, and 8 moon has Chandra, which is hard to interact with. Blood Moon isn't game over for us, but it does shut down our wincons. Maybe I'll maindeck a pithing needle against Chandra and Stage...

depends how your deck looks like. Can¨t say much without the deck list.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Yeah good call. Here's my list as of now:



Maindeck


SB


4 Lilliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Leyline of the Void


1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Wasteland
2 Bitterblossom



3 Innocent Blood
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Tombstalker


2 Cursed Scroll
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Pithing Needle


1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Cabal Pit
2 Lost Legacy


2 Phyrexian Totem
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Collective Brutality


1 Crucible of Worlds

1 Spawning Pool
1 Ratchet Bomb



4 Dark Ritual
1 Maze of Ith



1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Fatal Push
10 Swamp



1 Nether Void






Also looking for something to cut so I can fit in an extra Bridge on the SB (figure it's good against Lands, and I know Sneak & BR Reanimator will be there too), and something to cut for Chains MD.

Thanks!

[Hardcore]

Yeah good call. Here's my list as of now:



Maindeck


SB


4 Lilliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Leyline of the Void


1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Wasteland
2 Bitterblossom



3 Innocent Blood
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Tombstalker


2 Cursed Scroll
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Pithing Needle


1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Cabal Pit
2 Lost Legacy


2 Phyrexian Totem
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Collective Brutality


1 Crucible of Worlds

1 Spawning Pool
1 Ratchet Bomb



4 Dark Ritual
1 Maze of Ith



1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Fatal Push
10 Swamp



1 Nether Void






Also looking for something to cut so I can fit in an extra Bridge on the SB (figure it's good against Lands, and I know Sneak & BR Reanimator will be there too), and something to cut for Chains MD.

Thanks!

I think you should focus on tuning your deck to beat one of them, and hope to dodge the other. Given your reliance on non-basics I would think you are very vulnerable to 8 moon. Chalice of the void at one will also hurt you much. Lands is difficult but you have tools against it.
This is not ideal since 8 moon actually has the weakest gameplan (hate ftw). WIth another build you can blank much of its cards. Thing being as they are, however, dodging 8 moon and focus on lands is your best bet. Unless you want to completely transform your deck.
I would put a second bridge main deck, and some surgicals in the sideboard.

[Mr. Safety]

Hero's Downfall and Cranial Extraction. I've been wondering how you Pox guys can succeed against Jace without the initial card anyways.

Pithing Needle, targeted discard, and keeping them off 4 lands with waste/smallpox/hymn. Lost Legacy had replaced cranial, and surgical/extirpate are typically better than those.

Any other questions?

@aslidsliksoraksi: I would be playing at least 2-3 ratchet bombs on the board. It works under moon effects and has value across multiple decks. I personally would be playing 2 maindeck bombs if I sleeved up pox.

[ntropy]

Pithing Needle is very good against both Lands the deck and Chandra the card. I would consider upping your count. I run 1 in the main and 3 in the side to fight 'walkers and Stage/Depths. Ratchet bomb is good against Moon Stompy because it hits Chalice and Goblin Tokens. Bridge is great against Lands. Leyline is also great against Lands. Collective Brutality is decent against stompy because it kills Magus, Rabblemaster and spirit guide, and it can be cast off 1 swamp under moon effects. In my experience vs. Moon Stompy it is more important to resolve a Liliana early than it is to Wasteland them early, so keep that in mind. Both decks are real good, and we have to fight hard against them, but they are definitely beatable.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Hey thanks for the advices everyone! I did end up maindecking a needle and an extra bridge, as well as putting in the chains (cut the totems and a dark ritual). Went 2-3, losing to lands, dredge, and elves, beating some monogreen stompy thing and a budget storm build. Highlights were dying to bitterblossom the turn before dredge would have decked himself, and watching storm make 14 goblins turn 1 before going turn 1 tabernacle. So yeah.

Had better luck this week at the usual weekly. Tweaked the list a bit, put necropolis regent in the maindeck as a 2x. I figure he can fill the place of tombstalkers, but is more spicy and does more stuff in a way. In a way he's a cross between stalker and scroll, in that he provides repeatable removal (ie card advantage) as well as a fast clock. In the games I played he could have been a tombstalker and maybe better as such, but i think i'll keep him as is for now (plus the prerelease foils are so cool looking).

here's the list I ran:


Pox




SB


4 Lilliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Leyline of the Void


1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Wasteland
2 Bitterblossom




3 Innocent Blood
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Pithing Needle


2 Necropolis Fiend
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Lost Legacy




2 Toxic Deluge
1 Cabal Pit
2 Collective Brutality


2 Cursed Scroll
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Ratchet Bomb


1 Ensnaring Bridge


1 Spawning Pool
1 Extirpate


1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Maze of Ith






1 Nether Void
10 Swamp




3 Dark Ritual
1 Chains of Mephistopheles






1 Fatal Push









Round 1: Czech Pile

Game 1 I go for the turn 1 inquisition and see Strix, DRS, Snap, and K command, along with the lands to play them. Doesn’t feel good man. I take K Command. End up dropping a Lili, but she gets bolted. Next turn he has his own Liliana. He follows this up with Leovold. I’m able to use a Scroll to keep his Lili from ultimating, and I drop a Chains to stop him from drawing like mad with Leo, but the beats get there.

SB: out 3 rituals, 1 bridge, 1 push, 1 tabernacle; in 1 ratchet bomb, 2 needles, 2 Bitterblossom, 1 Brutality

Game 2 was a beautiful game of Poxiness. I’m on the play. Swamp go. He gets turn one DRS. I play turn 2 Hymn and hit all the gas - his Lili and his Engineered Explosives. Turn 3 my Lili kills his Shaman. Then followed by Chains so he can’t really draw out of it and I start ticking up. He dies to Spawning Pool, 1 point at at time. Search for Azcanta does show up and get around Chains, but feels too late and eventually gets wasted. Highlight of the game was my dumb butt playing a smallpox that made me discard my crucible :frown:

Game 3 was very interesting but I didn’t take a ton of notes. I drop a scroll early and he doesn’t have a lot of action fast. He does drop his own Lili Last Hope though, but he’s a little low on creatures so he's just plus-ing into space. Then he gets a Sylvan Library and flips a search for azcanta. At this point I’ve got my own Liliana and a pair of scrolls, to go with a factory. I tick my girl up and she’s at six counters when he drops a Stryx. At this point he’s pretty low on life (7) thanks to library, but if he keeps his Lili I will lose to her minus ability on the Strix as he will make forever blockers. And he has pulled far ahead on cards, holding 4 to my one. I go for the ultimate - he can keep either 4 lands (including the Search) or Library, LiLH, and the Strix. I feel if he keeps the nonlands I will lose to them, but he takes the lands; it was risky either way. I drop the wasteland I’m holding, hit his Search. And then a few scrolls later he’s dead.

Overall I love this matchup, not because it’s easy but because it’s intense and always feels close and tight. I messed up a few times and almost threw the game away in the last one, but hey.

Games 2-1, Matches 1-0

Round 2: Grixis Delver

He’s new to the deck and playing borrowed duals. Game 1 he plays 2 DRS and 4 Delvers. Liliana wishes she could hide behind her veil. No deluge arrives, and although I waste his only mana source and take some potshots while he waits for his delvers to flip, eventually they do and I die fast.

SB: out 2 hymn, 1 spawning pool, 1 crucible; in 2 ratchet bomg, 2 collective brutality

Game 2 he forces my ritual. I got turn two chains. he flips a delver and starts hitting me. Find an answer to the delver, but then he drops a zombie fish. Gets a hit in with it, drops a DRS. I rip the Deluge, and go to 4 life to wipe the board. Over the next turns he draws nothing, I drop Factory and Nether Void and take the game.

Game 3 is an odd one. I kept a one land hand with a basic swamp, mostly because it was a mulligan and I had some 1 cmc action. But he, oddly enough, kept a 1 land hand with only a pithing needle. He goes wasteland, needle name scroll. I play way more lands than him, so I draw a few of them, and play Chains (I drew this card 6 time in 11 games, real MVP that night). I manage to keep him low on lands (that’s what we do, after all), and then drop Nether Void. Not long after Necropolis Fiend shows up to mop things up.

One thing that happened both game 1 and 2 where that I went turn 1 ritual and he forced it. I told him it's usually better to force the payoff, not the ritual, but maybe he's on to something?

Games 4-2, Matches 2-0

Round 3: BR Reanimator

Game 1 he mulligans to 5 and I think I might just get there. I have turn 1 inquisition and he’s holding entomb, unburial rites, grisel, and a collective brutality (he played his land for the 5th card). I take Brutality. He entombs a new grisel. At this point I feel okish - it’ll take him a few turns to get to the rites, and maybe I can make him discard it… Nope. Reanimate off the top. GG boys

SB: out 2 LotV, 1 crucible, 1 nether void, 1 spawning pool, 1 tabernacle, 1 scroll, 2 toxic deluge, 2 hymn, 1 NoSB, 1 push; in 4 leyline, 1 extirpate, 2 lost legacy, 2 needle, 2 bitterblossom, 2 brutality

Game 2 he mulligans to 4. I’m on the play with swamp and holding up extirpate. He manages to take that from me with a brutality. But his hand has no way to put anything in his graveyard, but his holding Exhume. I draw 3 factories and start to close fast. He finally does get grisel at 7 life, but I have Liliana for it. I had her on board in fact, but wasn’t plusing her just in case he was holding a reanimate target.

Game 3 I keep a one land wasteland hand on the strength of Leyline. It messes him up enough to where he tries to go for a turn1 grisel but just ends up unmasking himself pointlessly. He has no lands in hand, but does have enough mana off free sources to burning wish for a way to remove leyline. But without lands he has to draw into it. So we both are on the draw lands plan - but I play 26 and he plays 12. I get more. He finally destroys my Leyline and entombs Griselbrand but without a way to reanimate it. I Bojuka Bog. Then get a second Leyline up and running. Necropolis Fiend ends the game.

Games: 6-3, Matches 3-0

Round 4: ANT

This is where the Pox dream dies my friends. Game 1 was kind of close. I knew he had 2 tutors in hand, but he ended up using both to get mana sources. I know his hand is all mana sources except for one card he just drew. He’s got 2 lands. I can choose between wasting his land or playing a factory; I decide to start a little pressure. That’s a mistake - the unknown card is the 3rd infernal tutor and that’s the game. In retrospect I was holding Necropolis Fiend, so maybe I shouldn’t have rushed it with factory and just held him back as long as possible, since Fiend is the real clock here.

SB: out 1 Beseech, 1 maze, 1 NoSB, 1 LiLH, 3 blood, 1 push, 1 crucible, 1 scroll, 1 bridge; in 4 Leyline, 2 Lost Legacy, 2 ratchet bomb, 2 brutality, 1 extirpate

Game 2 I inquisition and see a hand that thoughtseize would wreck - all mana sources and a single ad nauseum. But unfortunately, I can’t do anything that good. So i just take a mana source. Ratchet bomb seems decent against his two LEDs, but he ramps to AN and the T soon follows. Not sure exactly how to time bomb against LED, but I did the first one when the second was on the stack, so he couldn’t pop it in response and before he could play Ad Nauseum. I think that’s correct

Games: 6-5, Matches 3-1

I liked fiend in the deck, helps to have a clock in the MD. I'll keep him around for a bit. Also digging the high land count list, i feel i'm starving for mana much less.

Just a reflective thought - I think I read somewhere that one reason Pox isn't that popular or hyped is that it is both somewhat expensive (at least the pricey enchantments) and actually really difficult to play. I think this last point is a good one (either that or I'm not that great a player). Targeted discard, reciprocal effects, planeswalkers, etc, all require a lot of decisions and you need to read the opponent's weaknesses a lot. I've played control/prison for most of my magic life but usually you either drop a lock piece and hope for the best or you counter what matters as it comes up. Here you have to be somewhat preemptive in cutting off resources, and the locks are rarely so hard you can just sit on them. Plus since taking their stuff also means taking your own, you always have to estimate the value of your cards vs theirs, etc. I feel I'm improving but I think it's true that the deck takes a lot of practice. Anyway just a thought.

In other news, pretty darn pumped to play the new Karn. Might be just the card draw engine we've been hoping for.


Much love to the Pox fam

[Mr. Safety]

Lands, Elves, and Dredge are literally the worst matchups for Pox. UGGH. That must have been painful. None of them unwinnable, but those are uphill battles for sure.

[Hardcore]

Good set of tools against dredge though. I count at least nine cards to comfortably bring in from the sb. Generally speaking dredge is a niche deck. I myself wouldn't worry about it. Lands is more common and harder to defeat.

[naynay666]

Thanks for the writeup!


I liked fiend in the deck, helps to have a clock in the MD.

I am excited about exploring this. Did you kill a bunch of Deathrites or was it a 20% slower Tombstalker?

Did it run into your Bridge at all?


We are difficult matches.

Yeah these are both kinda miserable, but at least Dredge is fringe. I have been running into Lands far too often lately.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Thanks for the writeup!

[Necropolis Regent in the MD]

I am excited about exploring this. Did you kill a bunch of Deathrites or was it a 20% slower Tombstalker?

Did it run into your Bridge at all?
.

It didn't run into bridge (I only run 1). In the matches I played it was admittedly just 20% slower than Tombstalker. I feel like I still want to keep trying him though. As a finisher he's slower but I think he's better from behind. Doesn't trade with Angler, but does a lot better if you keep him back as a blocker, since he can kill their stuff EOT (and if he's not summoning sick and you have a card in yard, he can block and kill angler without trading). Figure he'll also help against things like Elves/Pyromancer where you need targeted removal and not sac effects. And big butt means can survive Deluge, ideally. Too slow to be the thing you lean on to kill DRS really.

Mostly just theory though at this point. If you try him let us know how it works!

[Hardcore]

Just now I played turn one fetch, dark ritual, dark ritual, tombstalker for the win in the local tourney. A baleful strix stopped it temporally but I top decked Collective Brutality.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

hell yeah. feels good.

[Hardcore]

Having lost a game online to omniscience i have had second thoughts about Lost Legacy. Given my disruption i should reach three mana and cast it in time, something in doubted earlier. It would likely be good against many decks that are not blue control.

[EtwasSteIne]

Hey thanks for the advices everyone! I did end up maindecking a needle and an extra bridge, as well as putting in the chains (cut the totems and a dark ritual). Went 2-3, losing to lands, dredge, and elves, beating some monogreen stompy thing and a budget storm build. Highlights were dying to bitterblossom the turn before dredge would have decked himself, and watching storm make 14 goblins turn 1 before going turn 1 tabernacle. So yeah.

Had better luck this week at the usual weekly. Tweaked the list a bit, put necropolis regent in the maindeck as a 2x. I figure he can fill the place of tombstalkers, but is more spicy and does more stuff in a way. In a way he's a cross between stalker and scroll, in that he provides repeatable removal (ie card advantage) as well as a fast clock. In the games I played he could have been a tombstalker and maybe better as such, but i think i'll keep him as is for now (plus the prerelease foils are so cool looking).

here's the list I ran:


Pox




SB


4 Lilliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Leyline of the Void


1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Wasteland
2 Bitterblossom




3 Innocent Blood
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Pithing Needle


2 Necropolis Fiend
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Lost Legacy




2 Toxic Deluge
1 Cabal Pit
2 Collective Brutality


2 Cursed Scroll
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Ratchet Bomb


1 Ensnaring Bridge


1 Spawning Pool
1 Extirpate


1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Maze of Ith






1 Nether Void
10 Swamp




3 Dark Ritual
1 Chains of Mephistopheles






1 Fatal Push











Thanks for your great report and the solid finish :-)
I am a big fan of your list and would play almost the same:

Main:

1 Nether Spirit
1 Tombstalker

2 Cursed Scroll
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Nether Void
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal

4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize
4 Innocent Blood
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Collective Brutality

4 Dark Ritual
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Cabal Pit
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 Swamp

SB:

1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Engineered Plague
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning

2 Bitterblossom
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Lost Legacy

2 Surgical Extraction
4 Leyline of the Void


I would like to start a discussion about a few cardchoices:

Discardspells:

Thoughtseize >>> Inquisition of Kozilek
Is your meta full of burn or what is the idea behind your choice? If there is burn, we should play more Collective Brutality.
Furthermore Collective Brutality is a maindeck and no sb card for me. It is flexible but no specific hate. What's the idea of having it in your sb? Is it good enough to play 2 or even 3?
I do like 3 Hymn to Tourach and tend to board them out in most of the creature-matchups.

Finisher:

Don't you miss Nether Spirit? I like to discard him and he is a really good blocker.
Which finisher is better: Tombstalker or Necropolis Fiend? Lower manacost vs. useful but expansive ability?

Rest:

I don't like Sinkhole anymore because of Deathrite Shaman. Any objection?
I do love Ensnaring Bridge and would like to play 3 but don't have the space. It is a must-answer for so many decks.
Does Lost Legacy outplays the usual Pithing Needle in our sbs? In theory i think so, what do you guys think?

That's it for now,
Greetings Stephan

[Mr. Safety]

1) I am sold on Bitterblossom maindeck as a finisher, along with 1-2x Bloodghast, and 4x Mishra's Factory. I also like Tombstalker, but I find it unnecessary with 4x BB main.

2) Burn will always be a bad matchup. The only way to really punish them is to play a faster combo (like Leyline/Helm in the sideboard.) It's a matchup we basically concede as bad and move on.

3) I am also a strong supporter of maindeck Ratchet Bomb. Fast starts can be problematic, and Ratchet Bomb can create virtual card advantage (just like Bitterblossom.) It's never dead and opening up 2-3 slots in the sideboard can be very helpful for addressing your particular metagame.

[Hardcore]

The burn match up can be anything from autoloss to favorable. It totally depends ones build. Thoughtseize or not has minimal impact on that however. It is surely a card to board out since it doesn't do anything for you. Destroy the lands, apply pressure and race is the classic way to win. Taxing effects are also valuable.
Good cards: sinkhole, Smallpox, Pox, Hymn (double timewalk) Mishra's, Bloodghast, Collective brutality, trinisphere, nether void, chalice of the void etc.

[ntropy]

1) I am sold on Bitterblossom maindeck as a finisher, along with 1-2x Bloodghast, and 4x Mishra's Factory. I also like Tombstalker, but I find it unnecessary with 4x BB main.

2) Burn will always be a bad matchup. The only way to really punish them is to play a faster combo (like Leyline/Helm in the sideboard.) It's a matchup we basically concede as bad and move on.

3) I am also a strong supporter of maindeck Ratchet Bomb. Fast starts can be problematic, and Ratchet Bomb can create virtual card advantage (just like Bitterblossom.) It's never dead and opening up 2-3 slots in the sideboard can be very helpful for addressing your particular metagame.

I think being able to board up to 4 Collective brutality can make a difference vs. Burn, but it's still not favorable. I'm currently on Brutality plus Trinisphere vs. them, but I haven't got in much testing.

I agree with you re: Ratchet Bomb. I run 2 in the main. It is occasionally dead though. I take them out vs. Sneak and Show, Omnitell, Reanimator, TinFins, etc. It has tons of random utility vs. most decks though.

[Mr. Safety]

I think being able to board up to 4 Collective brutality can make a difference vs. Burn, but it's still not favorable. I'm currently on Brutality plus Trinisphere vs. them, but I haven't got in much testing.

I agree with you re: Ratchet Bomb. I run 2 in the main. It is occasionally dead though. I take them out vs. Sneak and Show, Omnitell, Reanimator, TinFins, etc. It has tons of random utility vs. most decks though.

Yes, Brutality is a great tool against Burn. Probably still not enough, but yes, very good.

Against Sneak/Show, on the draw, T1 Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, Ratchet Bomb, destroy Lotus Petal with Bomb. BOOM. All the value. That's a niche case, and honestly still not very good. With the prevalence of discard, which is very good against Sneak/Show and Omnittell, you should be alright with 2x dead cards in the main. Against reanimator you have to lean on your sideboard or maindeck something that has utility outside of pure grave hate, like Surgical Extraction (maindeckable in a combo-heavy metagame.) Reanimator can actually go alright if you can nab reanimate spells with discard (Hymn is too risky, Liliana OTV only for the sacrifice ability.)

Many of those faults, including a weakness to burn, has made me really want to get away from Pox and play something with Deathrite Shaman. I started with Shaman in Loam Pox, he was just *that good*, even in a smallpox deck. Then I dropped smallpox for Dark Confidant, then I sped the deck up with more tutors for more Dark Depths, then Thespian's Stage was printed and Turbo Depths became the best Marit Lage deck. Then it became a known quantity and people started experimenting with a grindier version of TD with DRS/Bob/maindeck Abrupt Decay and Sylvan Library. I traded into a Bayou, and I was hooked.

If I were to play Pox in a local metagame I would try desperately to buy into a set of Helm of Obedience for the sideboard. I really think it's the best way to fight the bad matchups like Burn. You can play your pox plan and still blast a quick combo with Leyline/Helm enabled by Dark Ritual.

[naynay666]

Burn can be brutal but definitely not the worst matchup. I usually leave in my 2 Thoughtseize MD. Thoughtsies is horrible when stripping Bolts but still 33% better than being Bolted. Burn also totes Sulfuric Vortex and Pyrostatic Pillar. Both of which we can't deal with once they hit the board.

I drop 2-3 Wastelands and bring in 2-3 Surgical effects. Wastelands don't hit anything and Surgical strips the 4+ damage spells like Fireblast, Firecraft and PoP.

Nethervoid is a pretty solid non-budget answer. You know- if you got it like that.

The MVP as we all know is the Collective Brutality. The life is great but this is definitely an all-modes-relevant matchup. Eat your opponent, a Golin Guide and the hand.

[Mr. Safety]

http://www.mtgpics.com/card?ref=dom247

Cabal Stronghold

tap, add 1
3, tap: add B equal to basic swamps you control

Interesting land, surprised it's at rare actually. It's easy to activate in Pox (especially if your stuck on Factory/Wasteland and need a 2nd black mana.) It's inefficient, but potentially a Cabal Coffers for modern anyways. Not sure it's actually good for Pox, and certainly not as exciting as the new Karn (which rewards maindeck Crucible of Worlds and Ratchet Bomb better and gives CA.)

[Pittplayer]

Would Rite of Belzenlok find a home in Pox? You get 4 blockers/sacrifice fodder. Then you get a 6/6 flying trampling finisher? I think it may be worth a look.

[EtwasSteIne]

1) I am sold on Bitterblossom maindeck as a finisher, along with 1-2x Bloodghast, and 4x Mishra's Factory. I also like Tombstalker, but I find it unnecessary with 4x BB main.

2) Burn will always be a bad matchup. The only way to really punish them is to play a faster combo (like Leyline/Helm in the sideboard.) It's a matchup we basically concede as bad and move on.

3) I am also a strong supporter of maindeck Ratchet Bomb. Fast starts can be problematic, and Ratchet Bomb can create virtual card advantage (just like Bitterblossom.) It's never dead and opening up 2-3 slots in the sideboard can be very helpful for addressing your particular metagame.

Interesting idea with maindeck Bitterblossom! This helps to get free slots in the board and will improve preboard control-matchups. I wonder if you play Night of Souls' Betrayal and or Toxic Deluge along with 4 Bb? My plan is to beat fair decks g1 so the sweepers do a great job there. Do you have problems with this massive dissynergy?

Burn is a lousy but by no means unwinable matchup. We need great draws but that's ok for me.

Ratchet Bomb sounds promising, which cards do you cut for it? Discard or removal?



Would Rite of Belzenlok find a home in Pox? You get 4 blockers/sacrifice fodder. Then you get a 6/6 flying trampling finisher? I think it may be worth a look.

Those Saga-cards look stylish. Nevertheless I think that the powerlevel is average at best. As a different finisher Liliana, the Last Hope might be a thing. On paper this card looks versatile (removal and finisher). Anybody tried her?

[Mr. Safety]

Interesting idea with maindeck Bitterblossom! This helps to get free slots in the board and will improve preboard control-matchups. I wonder if you play Night of Souls' Betrayal and or Toxic Deluge along with 4 Bb? My plan is to beat fair decks g1 so the sweepers do a great job there. Do you have problems with this massive dissynergy?

Burn is a lousy but by no means unwinable matchup. We need great draws but that's ok for me.

Ratchet Bomb sounds promising, which cards do you cut for it? Discard or removal?




Those Saga-cards look stylish. Nevertheless I think that the powerlevel is average at best. As a different finisher Liliana, the Last Hope might be a thing. On paper this card looks versatile (removal and finisher). Anybody tried her?

I end up cutting some number of threats, because BB is so efficient. I don't use night of souls betrayal. While it's a blowout sometimes it can often slow you down too. As you say, night is a no-no with BB. I opt for deluge (which wipes, but BB catches up again) and Engineered Plague in the sideboard.

Generally I feel pox enough discard that maindeck ratchet bomb helps with problematic permanents. Six targeted discard with 4 hymns, some number of collective brutality, and liliana makes for a brutal discard suite. The spot that usually suffers is removal because we lean on smallpox and liliana too much. Bomb and fatal push, maybe a dismember or deluge main, go a long ways.

I think I have a 4 BB list posted about a page back with bomb main.

[Manroe]

Any consideration for Heart of Kiran as a win con?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

[Hardcore]

I end up cutting some number of threats, because BB is so efficient. I don't use night of souls betrayal. While it's a blowout sometimes it can often slow you down too. As you say, night is a no-no with BB. I opt for deluge (which wipes, but BB catches up again) and Engineered Plague in the sideboard.

Generally I feel pox enough discard that maindeck ratchet bomb helps with problematic permanents. Six targeted discard with 4 hymns, some number of collective brutality, and liliana makes for a brutal discard suite. The spot that usually suffers is removal because we lean on smallpox and liliana too much. Bomb and fatal push, maybe a dismember or deluge main, go a long ways.

I think I have a 4 BB list posted about a page back with bomb main.

How many Bitterblossom do you feel comfortable to have in play at the same time?

[Hardcore]

Any consideration for Heart of Kiran as a win con?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

Sure, if you can guarantee that you will have a planeswalker in play after casting Heart of Kiran.

[Mr. Safety]

How many Bitterblossom do you feel comfortable to have in play at the same time?

Matchup dependant. Against miracles for instance I'll take as many as I can resolve. After 2 turns it snowballs quickly and I end up doing exponentially more damage before they can catch up.

For most matchups 1 is fine, 2 max. But that's what brutality and liliana are for, to discard extra copies (or keep one on reserve if they kill it.)

[Hardcore]

Matchup dependant. Against miracles for instance I'll take as many as I can resolve. After 2 turns it snowballs quickly and I end up doing exponentially more damage before they can catch up.

For most matchups 1 is fine, 2 max. But that's what brutality and liliana are for, to discard extra copies (or keep one on reserve if they kill it.)

Follow up question;
Is it worth putting BB in play if you got not void or Sphere on the table?
Or rather, what is the value in different matches?

[Mr. Safety]

Follow up question;
Is it worth putting BB in play if you got not void or Sphere on the table?
Or rather, what is the value in different matches?

Definitely. It works around all pox effects by being an enchantment, and it takes no mana investment beyond playing it. The dream is t2 bb, t3 liliana. It protects her and you can he hellbent and still applying pressure. Your wastelands and everything else get better because you don't need mana for anything. Think nether spirit getting +1/+1 every turn, but divided among a bunch of bodies. It also has incredible synergy with cabal therapy (which you know I love).

[kombatkiwi]

Thoughts on the last few pages

- Brutality is probably the best card vs Burn
- Spinning Darkness is also very good if your metagame is so full of Burn that you can fit x4 Brutality and still want more cards vs the matchup
- Otherwise the other way to beat Burn is to play more cheap threats so you can kill them before they have time to topdeck more burnspells (8 Rack is the best but if you aren't on that build then boarding in all copies of whatever Tombstalker effect you have is also advisable)

- The new Coffers is rubbish
1. Doesn't work with Urborg
2. Costs 3 lands and itself to activate so for it to be better than a Basic Swamp you need 5 other Basic Swamps
3. If you have 6 lands in play already what the fuck do you need the extra mana for

- Heart of Kiran is rubbish. If you have anything to crew it with you could just be attacking with that creature instead. Crewing it by removing a counter from Liliana is also bad because the threat of Lili ultimate is an important part of the gameplan, as is keeping Liliana on a high loyalty so you can reliably deal with the opponent's topdecked creatures

- The Saga that makes a 6/6 token is interesting and it's nice that it's a big creature that protects itself from your own Smallpox to some extent, but it's so slow to have a creature that costs 4 mana and basically has suspend 3 (the Demon comes in 2 turns but doesn't have haste)

- Bitterblossom is probably good but idk if it's a maindeck card

[Hardcore]

This is crap, but perhaps storm will run it.

Final Parting
3BB
Sorcery

Search your library for two cards. Put one into your hand and the other into your graveyard. Then shuffle your library.

"Sleep now, brother. This is the one gift I can give you"

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Just back from the weekly - had a small one today, but managed to go 2-1. Beat UR Delver and Grixis Delver 2-0, lost to Esper Blade. Managed to steal a game off them forgetting tabernacle (feels bad but I'll take it), but planeswalkers outclassed me the other two. The list hasn't changed much but hey:



Pox


SB


4 Lilliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Leyline of the Void


1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Wasteland
2 Bitterblossom



3 Innocent Blood
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Pithing Needle


2 Necropolis Fiend
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Lost Legacy



2 Toxic Deluge
1 Cabal Pit
2 Collective Brutality


2 Cursed Scroll
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Ratchet Bomb


1 Ensnaring Bridge

1 Spawning Pool
1 Extirpate


1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Maze of Ith




1 Nether Void
10 Swamp



3 Dark Ritual
1 Chains of Mephistopheles




1 Fatal Push






Someone asked me why there were Collective Brutalities in my board - tbh I'm not sure. They were there against Burn and I bring them in against creature heavy decks (sometimes side them in for Hymns, other times whatever else). I think I might cut them for more Needles though. Maybe even sorcerous spyglass - the extra mana isn't a huge deal and seeing their hand is nice.

With this bit of extra testing I feel like I can say this now - Necropolis Fiend is an absolute HOUSE. He carried me all four of those games against Delver. They have virtually no answer to him if you don't give them the block + bolt opportunity. And you don't even need to block since he'll just pick off all their guys anyway. I killed many delvers, many pyromancers, even a few shamans and blocked an angler to kill it with his ability. I think in a prison pox list he's just head and shoulders above Tombstalker; in those matches Tombstalker would have traded with Delver+Bolt and that's that. Fiend, for one more mana, does exactly what the deck wants, which is that he controls the board. They can't attack into him comfortably, and if they don't attack he'll kill their stuff. He's different than Tomby in that he's not really just for closing fast, I often found myself just holding him back instead of trying to race. I did struggle to fill the yard fast enough, and it was sometimes painful to try and get him enough fuel to really use him, but it wasn't a huge problem. Even without fuel he's a 4/5 flier that can kill everything but an angler in a fight. Sadly, dies to swords a lot :(

Anyway. If anyone is looking to try a new card out, he costs all of $2 for a fancy foil one, and I do not think you will be disappointed. Not only is he good but he has so much style - expect a few compliments :cool:. I think I'm gonna swap a blood for a push and maybe up the dark ritual count to fit him into the deck more comfortably.

With regard to what people have been talking about ...

@Mr. Safety - would love to see a Bitterblossom list. Have you been playing it around? It does seem to have potential

@New Coffers - yup it's trash

@Burn - Collective Brutality is great. I think trying to lock them is the best way though; get the trinispheres and sinkholes in on them. Just gaining life is good but in the end you still lose because our clock is so slow and they can just topdeck into the win

@Heart of Kiran - nah. like kiwi said, that Lili ultimate is a threat we need to be presenting. and there's nothing else to crew it with.

@the Demon Saga - worth a shot maybe. not too excited to be honest. that demon will kill us, it turns around and bites. we can't afford to be hit by it and there are other better demons out there (see Necropolis Fiend :wink::cool:)

@EtwasSteIne - I cut my 1x Spirit a while ago and tbh I never looked back. He's cute as an infinite blocker and it's definitely fun to discard him to Lili. But people have outs to him (swords, DRS, burn to clear the way for a fatty, flying delvers, or just more creatures than you in elves). And he doesn't close the game fast. You asked about Tombstalker vs Fiend - I'm in the Fiend camp right now pretty solidly. In you list I think could cut Stalker and Spirit for 2x Fiend easily. Aside from that your list is so close to mine - I love it! How are you liking Infernal Tutor? Prefer it over Beseech? I guess it's a better topdeck... You wanted to add Ensnaring Bridge. If you look a few pages back you'll see my lists with 3x bridges. In the end I didn't like it too much. We don't have a lot of action from behind the bridge, unfortunately, so can't abuse it fully, and too often they'd just draw cards for a while, find a way to remove it, and then win. That said, it could be cool to go full on Monoblack stompy with Ancient Tombs and City of Traitors, Chalices... maybe run Ob Nixilis as a wincon... red has Blood Moon but we have Nether Void, Abyss, Chains...... hmm kinda want to build that. But it's a different animal I think (and also a lot of money :laugh:).





All week I was dreaming of different decks - maybe i'll play enchantress, maybe I'll play shortcake - but picked up pox tonight and it was like coming home. The Pox is a is a thing of beauty, my friends.

[Mr. Safety]

It's only a theoretical list, my main deck these days is Bg Mid-range Dark Depths. It would look something like this:


1x Nether Spirit
4x Bitterblossom
3x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
2x Collective Brutality
2x Ratchet Bomb
3x Dark Ritual
2x Fatal Push

Beseech Package

1x Beseech the Queen
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Maze of Ith
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cabal Pit

4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
10x Swamp

Sideboard
3x Engineered Plague
2x Toxic Deluge
2x Pithing Needle
2x Collective Brutality
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Tombstalker
1x Diabolic Edict


I like Beseech the Queen quite a bit, it allows for a lot of singularly powerful cards to be available maindeck x2 (Maze, Edict, Bridge, Ratchet Bomb, Crucible, Bog.) It's more mana intensive to go that route, but it makes mid-late game Dark Rituals much better by powering out Beseech. Bitterblossom, if you can get it t1-3 can easily carry you to victory while you Hymn/Pox/Brutality/Wasteland your opponent or set up a Liliana lock. BB tokens and Nether Spirit for Cabal Therapy synergy and sideboarded Engineered Plague (which works better than Night of Souls Betrayal because it stacks, and Night is a non-bo with BB.)

[Hardcore]

Good thinking there on mid-game rituals. Myself I have seen them mainly as tempo cards to play powerful spells early.

[Hardcore]

Tonight's list.



4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Pox
4 Bloodghast
2 Tombstalker
4 nihilith
4 shrieking affliction
4 dark ritual
1 buried alive
4 Smallpox
3 liliana of the veil
4 Collective Brutality
2 liliana, the last hope

12 Swamp
1 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
4 marsh flats

Sideboard

2 massacre
4 Engineered Plague
4 surgical Extraction
4 pithing needle
1 lost Legacy

[Mr. Safety]

Good thinking there on mid-game rituals. Myself I have seen them mainly as tempo cards to play powerful spells early.

It is that, for sure. Making it relevant mid-game just makes it a little more versatile. Explosive t1-2 plays with Dark Ritual are great, but a slow grind with Ritual > Beseech > silver bullet is also very good. Dark Ritual #1 is amazing early, #2-4 are much worse. This way they allow some mid-game blasts even after Smallpox/Wasteland have left you with only 2-4 lands.

BTW, that Buried Alive + 3Ghast is HOT. It's a quick way to assemble a fast clock for 3 mana + a land drop. If I wasn't operating on Bitterblossom I might include Buried Alive as a pseudo-combo for grabbing a fast clock.

[Hardcore]

It works with Scourge of Nel toth, too. A bit slow, but if uncounterable is desirable then he is the zombie dragon for you.

[Hardcore]

Yargle, Glutton of Urborg Wizards are almost making fun of us players.

[Mr. Safety]

So I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest getting 1-2 copies of the new Karn. It's going to be very good in this deck. All we need is something like Cursed Scroll, Ensnaring Bridge or Crucible of Worlds and we have a 1/1 token generator, potentially a 2/2 or better depending on how many Factory's we can activate. Pithing Needle, Ratchet Bomb, and other potentially fringe cards can also be very good with him. I like the first 2 abilities enough to play 1 copy, then it becomes a question of whether to build around the 3rd ability or not. He may be a reason to go back to Cursed Scroll, especially where some of the card 'draw' is actually in exile with the silver counters, so having only 1 card in hand for Scroll won't be harder to achieve. Extra lands from the first ability can catch-up post Smallpox/Pox or feed Raven's Crime.

Overall, he's got some serious potential at working with Pox's strategy, filling in holes that Pox has traditionally had.

[Claymore]

Not a bad idea. Able to draw cards, get pressure on the board, not graveyard dependent. I don't think you really need to build around his ability, because the tokens start buffing each other. Aside from that, the usual Pox cards of Needle and Factory combine well.

He doesn't play into the deck's overall strategy of resource and permanent control, but looks good to refuel the deck and end the game.

[Mr. Safety]

Not a bad idea. Able to draw cards, get pressure on the board, not graveyard dependent. I don't think you really need to build around his ability, because the tokens start buffing each other. Aside from that, the usual Pox cards of Needle and Factory combine well.

He doesn't play into the deck's overall strategy of resource and permanent control, but looks good to refuel the deck and end the game.

Pox is a pseudo-prison deck, but one that can be drawn out of. The more I think about it, the more I think this might give Pox just the boost it needs to jump a tier (like tier 3 to tier 2, lol.)

[aslidsiksoraksi]

I agree with the Karn hype. I'm definitely gonna try out a pair of them. Dumb comparison since Jace is so broken, but he's kind of our Jace. Draws cards and can finish people.

Not sure what to cut but I'm pretty excited for him.

[Hardcore]

So, full Dominaria spoiler is out. Long wait and no fun cards. :mad: Some quite crappy even. I figure it all makes sense and is balanced for limited.

[Kaono]

Just a note, Karn's tokens count themselves so they'll be 1/1 minimum no matter what.

[Hardcore]

Karn and Bottled cloister seems much the same, except the insane price hike of karn.
€25+. BC by comparison cost €0,02...

[Mr. Safety]

I think Karn is definitely more useful, and I also think speculation is driving his cost up (not to mention he will be standard legal, and probably played in that format.)

[adrieng]

hi to all pox players ;

I am developping a pox-depth that you might be interested in, it has a very fast kill and it crushed all the tempo decks.
I still have issue against death and taxes and miracle (sideboard options for miracle improve it but still unfavored) but the deck is very good and I think it is better than B/G turbo depth which doesn't beat consistently tempo decks if they are well played ie they have to keep waste open.

Maybe I have to test liliana of the veil, but cursed scroll has been good at ending matchups such as grixis when you have an empty board it is game over.


Here is the list :



// 60 Maindeck
// 11 Artifact
4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map
3 Cursed Scroll

// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 7 Instant
3 Fatal Push
4 Dark Ritual

// 26 Land
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mishra's Factory
10 Swamp
2 Maze of Ith

// 12 Sorcery
4 Smallpox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach


// 15 Sideboard
// 8 Artifact
SB: 4 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

// 6 Sorcery
SB: 2 Rite of Consumption
SB: 4 Lost Legacy

[Hardcore]

hi to all pox players ;

I am developping a pox-depth that you might be interested in, it has a very fast kill and it crushed all the tempo decks.
I still have issue against death and taxes and miracle (sideboard options for miracle improve it but still unfavored) but the deck is very good and I think it is better than B/G turbo depth which doesn't beat consistently tempo decks if they are well played ie they have to keep waste open.

Maybe I have to test liliana of the veil, but cursed scroll has been good at ending matchups such as grixis when you have an empty board it is game over.


Here is the list :



// 60 Maindeck
// 11 Artifact
4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map
3 Cursed Scroll

// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 7 Instant
3 Fatal Push
4 Dark Ritual

// 26 Land
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mishra's Factory
10 Swamp
2 Maze of Ith

// 12 Sorcery
4 Smallpox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach


// 15 Sideboard
// 8 Artifact
SB: 4 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

// 6 Sorcery
SB: 2 Rite of Consumption
SB: 4 Lost Legacy



I would ditch the rituals. Your spells are cheap and don't require a ramp.

On the subject of mana i think ten Swamp and four urborg is less than you need. One untimely wasteland could leave you in deep problems.
The Urborgs and combo lands are fine. This leaves you with the slots for Mishra's, rituals and mazes to use to improve your mana base.

As for the dnt and miracle match ups the biggest problems would be swords to Plowshares and terminus, right?
While discard cards in the sideboard is one idea to counter that, I think it may be better with a card like Crucible of the worlds, or grim discovery. The idea being to outlast the opponents answers.

[kombatkiwi]

BG Turbodepths is hugely favored vs Tempo decks because Wasteland is the only way they can interact with you and you can just Pithing Needle it.
I think this Turbodepths/Pox hybrid is trying to do too many things that don't make sense together

[sonorous]

Thoughts on adding 1 or 2 Coercive Portal as a means of card draw?

[OmniStrata]

Thoughts on adding 1 or 2 Coercive Portal as a means of card draw?

Both Karn and Bottled Cloister are better, especially if Liliana of the Veil is your go to PW. BC I realize does throw your cursed scrolls out the window. Also makes Ensnaring Bridge awesomesauce. Why do you want to draw more when you're running CS?

[sonorous]

Both Karn and Bottled Cloister are better, especially if Liliana of the Veil is your go to PW. BC I realize does throw your cursed scrolls out the window. Also makes Ensnaring Bridge awesomesauce. Why do you want to draw more when you're running CS?
I want to draw more cards when it gets to mid and/or late game.
Anyway, Karn over Portal, noted.

[naynay666]

The Pox thread wasn’t on the 1st page, so I took notes at the weekly.

1x The Abyss
3x Innocent Blood
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
3x Collective Brutality
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
1x Bontu's Last Reckoning
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Phyrexian Totem
3x Dark Ritual
2x Fatal Push
4x Liliana of the Veil
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Nether Spirit
1x Maze of Ith
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
12x Swamp

Sideboard
3x Pithing Needle
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Extirpate
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Bontu's Last Reckoning
2x Lost Legacy
1x Nether Void
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
1x Necropolis Fiend


Rd 1. Dredge.

Game 1. No interaction.

Game 2. Turn 1 on the play Thoughtseized into 3 dredgers, Dread Return, a rainbow land, Breakthrough, LED. Took Breakthrough and then lost that game too. Should have mulliganed more aggressively for better hate.

0-1

Prayed to Urborg to dodge the bye. He came through like he always does.

Rd 2. Bant Blade.

Game 1. Horizon Canopy into DRS. Innocent Blood. Island, Noble Hierarch. Innocent Blood. Another DRS. Fatal Push and some hand hate. That happened for a while until his topdecks dried up. Somewhere in there he Swords’d his own Knight of the Reliquary to gain 11. Factory Beats with Phyrexian Totem sneaking in when the coast was clear ended the game.

Game 2. Killed creatures for a while. Dropped an Abyss, Night of Souls Betrayal and Cursed Scroll. Geist of Saint evaded The Abyss, but Maze of Ith took care of Angel tokens for a while. Bontu’s Last Reckoning took care of the Geist. The 2nd Liliana of the Veil uptick forced the scoop.

1-1

Rd 3. Sneak & Show.

Game 1. Hand hate and an early Liliana forced the scoop, albeit possibly premature.

Game 2. Opponent mulled to 5 and kept a nolander and then shuffled off a Ponder off a Petal. He missed the land drop. My turn 1 Dark Ritualed into Liliana into Force of Will. Pass. Landdrop Preordain. Lost Legacy naming Emrakul. Felt sketchy not knowing the opponent’s hand but this is why I jammed Lily first. Lost Legacy resolved and stripped Emrakul. Fast forward a few turns Show and Tell dropped his Omniscience and my The Abyss. He played a Griselbrand, drew 7, played cantrips for about 10 minutes and passed the turn. I drew an Ensnaring Bridge and jammed it. It got countered. The next turn he lost one Grizzy and played another. He dug and dug and dug only to pass the turn. I draw and pass. After The Abyss killed Griselbrand I Extirpated it. With no way to win, he scooped.

2-1

Rd 4. Dragon Stompy.

Game 1. Ancient Tomb, Chalice on 1 pass. Misura’s Factory pass. Mountain, Blood Moon pass. Urborg, Tomb of Mountains, pass. Mountain, Blood Moon on a stick pass. Mountain of Ith pass. Mountain, Blood Moon on a stick, swing, pass. WasteMountainland pass. Swing pass. Draw pass. Swing pass. Draw pass. Lather rinse repeat.

Game 2. He starts with the same 2 turns as last game. I get an opener with two Swamps. I jammed an early Lily and discarded a Nether Spirit, pass. Hazoret, wrecks Lily. Chump block for a while. The Abyss in my hand merely kills my blocker. So does the Bontu. Beats and beats later I get to go home.

2-2
No game 3s.



Very much looking forward to Karn. I know I’m gonna take out 1 Collective Brutality for the 1st, but I don’t know where to add the 2nd.

[Hardcore]

Funny game vs the sneak and show! Just what he deserved for playing such a deck.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18983&d=319416&f=LE

very interesting Pox style list

again in Japan it looks like. no factories. more swamps. seems aimed at doing crazy stuff with Lake of the Dead. plays 4 bitterblossom, apparently to abuse Braids, Cabal Minion. new Liliana also seems good with Braids. surprised at so few Lakes, and no dark rituals or therapies, since i imagine without lake the deck feels very slow, and with all the tokens therapy feels great.

I love this deck and want to play it so much.





http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19028&d=319755&f=LE

also Clayton Levi (if that's one of you guys, much respect) puts up another top8 in two months. similar list as before. he's got the 4 bloodghast package, but the rest seems more or less standard stuff.

[kombatkiwi]

It's extremely risky to play more than 2 Lake of the Dead (especially in a deck with no library manipulation) because they are totally dead in multiples

Planeswalkers + Braids is a pretty cool combo
Pretty sure that's the first time anybody has ever top 8 a legacy event that big with maindeck Sorin Markov lol

I'm also surprised at no Rituals in that deck, there are so many cards that cost 4+ mana.
For this reason Smallpox has always seemed very awkward to me in these big Lake of the Dead decks (because sacrificing a land is a big drawback), so maybe something like Collective Brutality is correct instead
I'm a huge fan of the Lake/Grave Titan 'shell' so it's interesting to see something very different that can be done with it (compared to the Reanimator version which is slightly more common I think, even if that's still very fringe)