[Primer/Deck] Pox

[naynay666]

I wonder if I should get a pair of jackboots.

Did your phone auto-correct Karn, Scion of Urza into Jackboots?

I had to look up what jackboots were.

[itsvan]

Hello naynay666, nice report!

I've been facing manabase problems too, but I agree with Hardcore, you should at least consider running a couple copies of Urborg.

I also used to feel confident in the D&T matchup, but I lost all my recent games against it. Sometimes its their mana denial plan, sometimes it's just Batterskull.

About your list:
- How are you liking the collective brutalities and bitterblossom on main?
- Considering you run 13 cards that cost 3 or more without dark ritual, do you get cards stuck in hand?

I liked your list a lot. I've been considering running bitterblossom on maindeck too, so your feedback will be appreciated.

[naynay666]

Hello naynay666, nice report!

I've been facing manabase problems too, but I agree with Hardcore, you should at least consider running a couple copies of Urborg.

I also used to feel confident in the D&T matchup, but I lost all my recent games against it. Sometimes its their mana denial plan, sometimes it's just Batterskull.

About your list:
- How are you liking the collective brutalities and bitterblossom on main?
- Considering you run 13 cards that cost 3 or more without dark ritual, do you get cards stuck in hand?

I liked your list a lot. I've been considering running bitterblossom on maindeck too, so your feedback will be appreciated.

Whatup Uncle?

Collective Brutality originally replaced Sinkhole during a time which I was running into Delvers with Daze with annoying regularity. It started as a 2-of but was quickly a playset. It was great in that matchup and almost every other fair creature deck with the exception of Big Red or Eldrazi (still ok). I was running 1 Nether Spirit and 1 Bloodghast (and 3 Rituals) at the time so I had a couple extra cards to ease Escalation costs. When I shifted away from those I dropped down to 2 to make room for Karn.

I view it as being kinda good at everything but it isn’t super strong everywhere. Often side at least 1 out. It is a very fun card to play though. Kills a lot of relevant creatures, especially after a kamikaze Factory. It also checks out what your opponent has going on but can be worse than Duress. Life gain is life gain. Most importantly it gives you a headsup if Liliana is safe or if you should reconsider. “You aren’t escalating?” is almost reliably “Not worth countering.”

Awesome against Elves and SFM decks. All modes annoyingly relevant against Burn and most Delvers.

Bitterblossom is a new addition but holy hell I am a fan. Flying is much stronger than I had considered. Disposable chump blockers keep the Walkers safe and their power is low enough to fly over the Bridge.

It is a great turn 2 play, especially after a Thoughseize. It makes the reactive deck passively aggressive. No great late but amazing after a Bridge. Although if you have 3 turns or less to survive, it is not the card you want. I was jamming 1 main 2 side, but was convinced to swap 1 for a lone Diabolic Edict.

Holy hell 13 cards sounds like a lot. There was a turn 4 that I wanted to play a Karn with a Maze instead of mana, but I didn’t run into any issues with missing a turn 3 play. I was activating 2 Cursed Scrolls with ease. Phyrexian Totem is still around to help with mana. I haven’t really missed Dark Ritual since I removed it B.K. (Before Karn). Speaking of which there are times when Karn causes a glut of cards in my hand, but it’s why he is there. If Bridge is out you play around it. If Scroll is out you play around it.

I am going to incorporate 2 copies of Urborg.

One thing I forgot to mention about 20 (18) Swamps was how good it makes Smallpox feel. For lack of a better word it feels streamlined. Reliably more castable and easier to make sacrificial decisions.

[Hardcore]

Did your phone auto-correct Karn, Scion of Urza into Jackboots?

I had to look up what jackboots were.

I play Pox. Is there anything more evil in magic? I rip my opponents deck and gameplan to pieces, and when they beg for mercy i play yet another Pox*. (it's not for fun** but I got to bring down their hand size so they die to shrieking affliction, you know).
My deck sleeves are the King in yellow, which is appropriate, but my deck box is a pink - skull one. Not good. How can I make my enemies tremble of fear with that? I could get a black one but black is a bit pale. It would have been so great to have a box in human skin. Properly harvested...
Jackboots is another way to signal evilness.

**that's why it's called "merciless",
*evil is not all fun. Often it is necessary cruelty. Ie. Work.

[Hardcore]

A pro-tip for those of you that play Bitterblossom; side it out against Mono-B opponents. If you don't you risk feeling silly when the BB get countered by Engineered Plague on fairies.

[ronco]

*evil is not all fun. Often it is necessary cruelty. Ie. Work.

"It's not work if you enjoy it."

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Nice report NayNay

The swamps in place of Urborg/Waste seems smart, though sad to see Wastelands go. It seems like a lot of your matchups were matchups where wasteland isn't that strong, but still. The 8 colorless lands is kinda clunky. Maybe since Wasteland is more of just a spell sometimes, you could cut 2 lands in general?

W/o wastes or sinks, I think we become much more of a traditional control deck, but more based in permanents (especially planeswalkers) than in the hand. Seems like a strong strategy, since without going all in on sinkholes the mana denial was more of a stall tactic anyway. The place it worked well was things like Delver or Turbodepths. If we lean into this plan, maybe more bridges and bitterblossoms could be good, since they protect the walkers? maybe 4-2 or 3-2?

I like the innovation, please keep reporting back!

[itsvan]

Thanks for the well thought response naynay666!
I'll make sure to keep it in mind before my next tournament.

@everyone
About sideboarding, does anybody have an updated guide or some tips against the most popular decks?
I play with the a more controlling list and usually finding out what comes in is not a problem. I often have trouble deciding what to cut, especially when Hymn to Tourach is involved.

I read the information on the first page of this primer and on mtgsalvation, but both seem outdated.

[Hardcore]

Thanks for the well thought response naynay666!
I'll make sure to keep it in mind before my next tournament.

@everyone
About sideboarding, does anybody have an updated guide or some tips against the most popular decks?
I play with the a more controlling list and usually finding out what comes in is not a problem. I often have trouble deciding what to cut, especially when Hymn to Tourach is involved.

I read the information on the first page of this primer and on mtgsalvation, but both seem outdated.

Generally speaking there are no new cards and no new tactics. While you could just copy the sideboard from any deck list online the fine tuning would still be left to you.
For that step I recommend this article https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/7-keys-to-leveling-up-your-sideboarding/

I can add that it is no sin to board in cards without taking any out. I do that frequently; for example when I want to overload creature kills. I have with success played with a 67 card deck after Sideboarding. So I try to keep at least ten cards in the sideboard. At least that self-imposed limitation makes me think a little about what to replace and with what cards.

[OmniStrata]

Generally speaking there are no new cards and no new tactics. While you could just copy the sideboard from any deck list online the fine tuning would still be left to you.
For that step I recommend this article https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/7-keys-to-leveling-up-your-sideboarding/

I can add that it is no sin to board in cards without taking any out. I do that frequently; for example when I want to overload creature kills. I have with success played with a 67 card deck after Sideboarding. So I try to keep at least ten cards in the sideboard. At least that self-imposed limitation makes me think a little about what to replace and with what cards.

67 card deck? SACRILEGE!! :laugh: I've never thought of that... lol A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, I thought running the 60 library limit was the most efficient way to get what you need. I'm thinking it'd work better with Karn since it draws all the time. I'll need to start doing that now as siding in and out is tougher for me ever since my infectious endocarditis last year. :cry:

[Hardcore]

67 card deck? SACRILEGE!! :laugh: I've never thought of that... lol A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, I thought running the 60 library limit was the most efficient way to get what you need. I'm thinking it'd work better with Karn since it draws all the time. I'll need to start doing that now as siding in and out is tougher for me ever since my infectious endocarditis last year. :cry:

As Pox player you should, like knight Kato, already have a heart made of stone. So no problems:cool: It is the brains that we need more of:laugh:

[itsvan]

Generally speaking there are no new cards and no new tactics. While you could just copy the sideboard from any deck list online the fine tuning would still be left to you.
For that step I recommend this article https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/7-keys-to-leveling-up-your-sideboarding/

I can add that it is no sin to board in cards without taking any out. I do that frequently; for example when I want to overload creature kills. I have with success played with a 67 card deck after Sideboarding. So I try to keep at least ten cards in the sideboard. At least that self-imposed limitation makes me think a little about what to replace and with what cards.


Hey Hardcore, thanks for the feedback!

I read the article you mentioned. It was a nice read, but the real gem was in another article that was mentioned during the general tips: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26317_The-Elephant-Method-A-Case-Study.html. This second link explains the process behind the elephant method ("Writing out ideal realistic lists for all matchups and then trying to make the unique cards in those lists add up to 75 cards before deciding on the specific 60 for the maindeck and the specific fifteen for the sideboard").
I'll try to do the same with my current list to get to a new 75 cards. I'll make sure to share my results with you guys.

On playing more than 60 cards, I strongly advise against that. By doing that you are lowering the chances of drawing a specific card and you lose consistence because your land to cards ratio is not the same anymore. Imagine the pain of nothing being able to find lands after a wasteland or your own smallpox.

[Hardcore]

Hey Hardcore, thanks for the feedback!

I read the article you mentioned. It was a nice read, but the real gem was in another article that was mentioned during the general tips: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26317_The-Elephant-Method-A-Case-Study.html. This second link explains the process behind the elephant method ("Writing out ideal realistic lists for all matchups and then trying to make the unique cards in those lists add up to 75 cards before deciding on the specific 60 for the maindeck and the specific fifteen for the sideboard").
I'll try to do the same with my current list to get to a new 75 cards. I'll make sure to share my results with you guys.

On playing more than 60 cards, I strongly advise against that. By doing that you are lowering the chances of drawing a specific card and you lose consistence because your land to cards ratio is not the same anymore. Imagine the pain of nothing being able to find lands after a wasteland or your own smallpox.

My mana base is good enough that the land ratis change only marginally. Then adding cards change the dynamic of the deck. For example access to massacre may mean in don't need to play Pox aggressively. This obviously help:smile: vs DnT. Note that the common advice would be cut a Pox for the massacre, BUT I want to have both. First I want to play massacre and after that Pox as Coup de grace.

The Elephant is useful in order to think holistically about deck and sideboard against all opponents. This doesn't mean one will use it for one's own design however. The reason is that the method is more suited to some decks than others. A typical example is combo. A player of such a deck, like storm, want to make the minimum necessary changes when Sideboarding in order to not compromise the function of his deck.

[Hardcore]

Are wizards unhinged or just cynical?
The new cards in the 2019 core set add more hate cards to the pool.
A favorite is Alpine Moon , with Mistcaller close second.
It seems to confirm my suspicion that rather than bans the preferred method to keep brokenness in check is to print new cards.

On the subject of storm there appears to be a hate cards in Amulet of Safekeeping . :rolleyes:

[Hardcore]

Pre-ordered a set of Alpine Moon. Not sure what to use them for, but I figure at total cost of 13€ it is no big deal.

[ronco]

I'm going to be taking Pox ("aggro" pox?) to a local in a couple weeks, my first ever legacy tournament. I'll probably make mistakes and i have no idea what the meta is now, but it is what it is.

Here is what I currently have/am thinking about taking.

14 swamp
4 Mishra's factory
4 Wasteland
3 urborg
4 pox
4 small pox
4 hymn to tourach
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 innocent blood
4 liliana of the veil
4 bloodghast
4 shrieking affliction
3 liliana, the last hope

I currently have no sideboard, but have/am considering the following:
4 Leyline of the void
4 extirpate (may not need 8 slots dedicated to grave hate)
4 pithing needle
3 toxic deluge

Some thoughts I am hoping others can provide input on, or cards I have that I can bring in. My heart is mostly on big pox for nostalgia sake if nothing else, but:
-4 pox
+2 karn, scion of urza
+2 delve creature of choice (plays nicer with Lili, last hope)

Also considering going with the 4th urborg.
I tried 8 rack for a while but that felt like too many conditional damage sources that were problematic if i drew too many too early.
I do have 2 collective brutality available, 3 thoughtsieze, 4 fatal push, as well as 2 ensnaring bridge and 2 bitterblossoms (courtesy of Mr. Safety) available for tech in the main or side. I have a lone chains but without search or draw it seems pointless to stick it in. I also have storm/control hate cards in defense grid (seems unnecessary) and damping sphere. or whatever that dominaria one was that slows tron and storm, potentially.
If i go the delve creature route, I can bring in fetches and fewer wasteland/mishra's to fill the yard and get landfall triggers.

[Pittplayer]

I'm going to be taking Pox ("aggro" pox?) to a local in a couple weeks, my first ever legacy tournament. I'll probably make mistakes and i have no idea what the meta is now, but it is what it is.

Here is what I currently have/am thinking about taking.

14 swamp
4 Mishra's factory
4 Wasteland
3 urborg
4 pox
4 small pox
4 hymn to tourach
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 innocent blood
4 liliana of the veil
4 bloodghast
4 shrieking affliction
3 liliana, the last hope

I currently have no sideboard, but have/am considering the following:
4 Leyline of the void
4 extirpate (may not need 8 slots dedicated to grave hate)
4 pithing needle
3 toxic deluge

Some thoughts I am hoping others can provide input on, or cards I have that I can bring in. My heart is mostly on big pox for nostalgia sake if nothing else, but:
-4 pox
+2 karn, scion of urza
+2 delve creature of choice (plays nicer with Lili, last hope)

Also considering going with the 4th urborg.
I tried 8 rack for a while but that felt like too many conditional damage sources that were problematic if i drew too many too early.
I do have 2 collective brutality available, 3 thoughtsieze, 4 fatal push, as well as 2 ensnaring bridge and 2 bitterblossoms (courtesy of Mr. Safety) available for tech in the main or side. I have a lone chains but without search or draw it seems pointless to stick it in. I also have storm/control hate cards in defense grid (seems unnecessary) and damping sphere. or whatever that dominaria one was that slows tron and storm, potentially.
If i go the delve creature route, I can bring in fetches and fewer wasteland/mishra's to fill the yard and get landfall triggers.

Huge Huge Huge mistake to play Bloodghasts with no fetches. Being able to fetch eot enables psudo haste. Also being able to fetch in response to Deathrite Shaman or Surgical Extraction is so important. I take it you never tested this deck?

[ronco]

Huge Huge Huge mistake to play Bloodghasts with no fetches. Being able to fetch eot enables psudo haste. Also being able to fetch in response to Deathrite Shaman or Surgical Extraction is so important. I take it you never tested this deck?

Not against anything real, no. Just against my own decks which aren't exactly tournament level.

That being said I was going to try some of the variants next week that i mentioned above to see how it does. Was just looking for some advanced input.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Not against anything real, no. Just against my own decks which aren't exactly tournament level.

That being said I was going to try some of the variants next week that i mentioned above to see how it does. Was just looking for some advanced input.

hardcore is our resident aggro pox master, hopefully he can help you

if you're going aggro, i wouldn't sub in Karn for big Pox, he's more of a control advantage card, and you want to close the game fast. better to make them lose 1/3 of their life. some delve threats might be ok, though they die to all your reciprocal sac effects. i think they're stronger in a control shell as well.

fetches do seem good if you have them.

my feeling is that you might want more wincons than 4x ghast 4x affliction 4x factory. maybe a couple Nihilith? I've seen that in Hardcore's lists.

is there a reason you're not playing dark ritual? you have a lot of busted turn 1 plays and with 8 poxes you'll be hurting for mana a lot so drawing it won't be dead that often

extirpate should be surgical, if you can do it, but like you said, probably don't need that much grave hate. maybe bitterblossom for the control matches? lost legacy is also good at crippling decks with few wincons (sneak & show, miracles, ANT). could put Karns in the board for grindier matchups

another cute thing you can do is buried alive for 3x bloodghasts (or other creatures that might be good in the yard). might be a bit too spicy but thought why not suggest it.

overall i like how streamlined your deck looks. seems like a lot of fun to play. let us know how it goes!

[Hardcore]

aslidsiksoraksi gives good advice.


Fetches for Bloodghast are necessary.
one buried alive is just right.
Four dark rituals are never wrong.
12 win conditions is enough.
A clunky mana base is best to avoid. Wasteland and Mishra's slows you down. Stick to swamp and fetches.
Spells that cost four mana are too clunky. Karn is for control Pox decks.
Nihilith and Shrieking Affliction both confuse opponents. May confuse you too. Tombstalker is more straightforward. His best buddies are the ghasts that protect him from Pox. See first point.
Pox is more valuable than LotV.
Inquisition and similar spells are weak. Best kept in the sideboard against combo.
Collective Brutality is more versatile than Innocent Blood.


I could go on but will emphasize the important point; Aggro and control have different goals, works differently and have different card requirements.
This means that while the big black card pool is the same you don't pick the same cards from it.

Pox+Shrieking affliction = <3

[Pittplayer]

aslidsiksoraksi gives good advice.


Fetches for Bloodghast are necessary.
one buried alive is just right.
Four dark rituals are never wrong.
12 win conditions is enough.
A clunky mana base is best to avoid. Wasteland and Mishra's slows you down. Stick to swamp and fetches.
Spells that cost four mana are too clunky. Karn is for control Pox decks.
Nihilith and Shrieking Affliction both confuse opponents. May confuse you too. Tombstalker is more straightforward. His best buddies are the ghasts that protect him from Pox. See first point.
Pox is more valuable than LotV.
Inquisition and similar spells are weak. Best kept in the sideboard against combo.
Collective Brutality is more versatile than Innocent Blood.


I could go on but will emphasize the important point; Aggro and control have different goals, works differently and have different card requirements.
This means that while the big black card pool is the same you don't pick the same cards from it.

* Bloodghasts are unplayable without fetches.
* Buried Alive is casual fodder. Not playable in a competitive legacy environment.
* Wasteland is crucial to a disruptive deck.
* Big pox is unplayable. And LotV is a top tier card. Almost every Pox deck that has had tourney success has run her.
* Dark Rituals belong in combo decks. Pox decks rely on virtual card advatange and top decks. I'm not saying they are unplayable, but they do make your deck more inconsistent.
* T1 discard spells are crucial in legacy. How do you fight against decks like show and tell or storm if you just pass T1?
* If you are not running 4 innocent blood, why are you even playing Pox? In a format filled with Deathrite Shamans and Delvers, Collective Brutaily is just so slow and just walks you into a daze.

[Hardcore]

* Bloodghasts are unplayable without fetches.
* Buried Alive is casual fodder. Not playable in a competitive legacy environment.
* Wasteland is crucial to a disruptive deck.
* Big pox is unplayable. And LotV is a top tier card. Almost every Pox deck that has had tourney success has run her.
* Dark Rituals belong in combo decks. Pox decks rely on virtual card advatange and top decks. I'm not saying they are unplayable, but they do make your deck more inconsistent.
* T1 discard spells are crucial in legacy. How do you fight against decks like show and tell or storm if you just pass T1?
* If you are not running 4 innocent blood, why are you even playing Pox? In a format filled with Deathrite Shamans and Delvers, Collective Brutaily is just so slow and just walks you into a daze.

You dare question the resident Aggro Pox Master?
Oh, well. The short reply is that my advice is for a deck built around Pox, not Smallpox.
Aggro, not control. Or suicide black in another form. Your objections does simply not apply here.

[OmniStrata]

You dare question the resident Aggro Pox Master?
Oh, well. The short reply is that my advice is for a deck built around Pox, not Smallpox.
Aggro, not control. Or suicide black in another form. Your objections does simply not apply here.

I LoL'ed hard after this...:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Mr. Safety]

I'm going to be taking Pox ("aggro" pox?) to a local in a couple weeks, my first ever legacy tournament. I'll probably make mistakes and i have no idea what the meta is now, but it is what it is.

Here is what I currently have/am thinking about taking.

14 swamp
4 Mishra's factory
4 Wasteland
3 urborg
4 pox
4 small pox
4 hymn to tourach
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 innocent blood
4 liliana of the veil
4 bloodghast
4 shrieking affliction
3 liliana, the last hope

I currently have no sideboard, but have/am considering the following:
4 Leyline of the void
4 extirpate (may not need 8 slots dedicated to grave hate)
4 pithing needle
3 toxic deluge

Some thoughts I am hoping others can provide input on, or cards I have that I can bring in. My heart is mostly on big pox for nostalgia sake if nothing else, but:
-4 pox
+2 karn, scion of urza
+2 delve creature of choice (plays nicer with Lili, last hope)

Also considering going with the 4th urborg.
I tried 8 rack for a while but that felt like too many conditional damage sources that were problematic if i drew too many too early.
I do have 2 collective brutality available, 3 thoughtsieze, 4 fatal push, as well as 2 ensnaring bridge and 2 bitterblossoms (courtesy of Mr. Safety) available for tech in the main or side. I have a lone chains but without search or draw it seems pointless to stick it in. I also have storm/control hate cards in defense grid (seems unnecessary) and damping sphere. or whatever that dominaria one was that slows tron and storm, potentially.
If i go the delve creature route, I can bring in fetches and fewer wasteland/mishra's to fill the yard and get landfall triggers.

Blockers will be a problem, so Deluge is good...but I might hedge against that and play 1-2x Darkblast, especially with 4x Bloodghast. Dredging them is straight up gas.

Extirpate is a 2-of at best, I think. With 4x leyline you're really looking for an edge against combo, not dredge/reanimator when you turn to Extirpate/Surgical. I would probably cut 2x Extirpate for 2x Darkblast, or at least 2x Collective Brutality (which is also straight up gas with Bloodghasts.)

3x Liliana, the Last Hope main is a little too much I think. Two should be *plenty* and I think this is where you can squeeze in something like Maze of Ith, Cabal Pit, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, or even a Duress. I would probably cut to only 1 LtLH and play 2x Duress maindeck. Pox and LtlH do very similar things, but her second ability is really poor in pox. First and last are nuts, so definitely 1 copy is fine.

Where are those Bitterblossoms I traded you?!?!? This is what I would do:

-2 Liliana, the last Hope
-1 Pox
+2 Duress (or Karns if you have them)
+1 Cabal Pit

Sideboard

-2 Extirpate
-2 Pithing Needle
-1 Toxic Deluge
+2 Collective Brutality
+2 Bitterblossom
+1 Darkblast

I like the quad-laser approach quite a bit, it gives a ton of consistency, but once you are dedicated to 25 lands you have to start thinking about 'do I want 3-ofs or do I want to dedicate 3 slots to singletons.' Crucible of Worlds, Maze of Ith, Toxic Deluge, Ratchet Bomb, all of these are perfectly fine as singletons.

Good luck!

EDIT: another reason for getting land #26 in there is because Pox is rough on your own mana, and 8 of your cards aren't lands without Urborg (Wasteland/Factory.)

[ronco]

I wasn't sure if bitterblossom went well with big pox. Between that, fetches and pox that is a LOT of self inflicted life loss and wasn't sure if putting myself into range of a few bolts was a great idea. I was thinking those would be more sideboard tech that I would pull big pox out for if it came down to it. But it certainly protects delve creatures/gives blockers/rebuilds the board quickly.

I've pulled out 3 urborg, 2 factory, 1 wasteland for 6 fetches in the mean time to try out and the mana base does feel a lot better. I don't know I am comfortable completely cutting wasteland as it seems very versatile in the format, but again I have no idea. I temporarily pulled big pox in favor of delve creatures and left the rest the same, and it handled my G/R aggro deck better (all I've had time to test against), for what that is worth. Not sure if that will stay since I want to play big pox IF I can make it work or at least not be terrible.


In response to the others:
-I don't have surgical now, only have extirpate, which is why that is there. Someday...
-IoK and similar cards being weak is a bit surprising to me. Is that comment made to imply thoughtsieze is better or all one mana for one card cards are not great in that build?
-I keep forgetting about maze of ith and ratchet bomb. this is where lack of experience hurts as I don't run into problem creatures/permanents often vs my limited pool of decks.
-on the way to work this morning, I had a terrible idea of considering prized amalgram along side the bloodghasts. But that is probably 100% too cute for competitive decks.
-regarding dark rits, I had pulled them as the consensus seemed to be split, and it gave me 4 more slots for tech. Since everything was 3 or less mana I didn't think it was terribly necessary but maybe I misunderstood the builds people were saying it was needed/not needed in.

thanks for the feedback on the rest, plenty I had overlooked. with the exception of nether void builds, I can put together just about any version of mono black pox or vaka pox (the Bw build, right?). Big pox agro was the one I was wanting to start with. I'm sure I'll find my sweet spot after getting it to some real events in due time.

[ronco]

5 mana is way too much, but they could have at least worked a pox in the name!
http://mythicspoiler.com/m19/cards/frayingomnipotence.jpg

[naynay666]

5 mana is way too much, but they could have at least worked a pox in the name!
http://mythicspoiler.com/m19/cards/frayingomnipotence.jpg

This is adorable. I wish it was BBBB to cast instead.

[naynay666]

I play control but LOVE the aggro variants. A few thoughts on ronco's list.


Bloodghasts & fetches

In an aggro shell, absolutely. Every now and again I jam a singleton alongside a Nether Spirit without fetches.


Buried Alive

I absolutely agree with Pittplayer on this. It's a 3 drop that doesn't do anything to disrupt. While it is a little cute, I can get behind an Entomb package as Bloodghast #5 or Raven's Crime or Darkblast or whatever.


Urborg

You would be fine jamming all the Urborgs. You are going to sacrifice them left and right when you aren't discarding them. They also make your fetches a lot better.


Wasteland

This deck wants to blow up stuff. Although there is a tinge of nonbo with Affliction.


* Big pox is unplayable. And LotV is a top tier card. Almost every Pox deck that has had tourney success has run her.

Big Pox isn't unplayable. It's not as good as Lil' V but if you want to jam it this is the shell. When playing this version I would cast Liliana first to clear the way for Pox. If they Force her Pox hits harder and if they Daze her Pox hits harder. This can also mean if you are on the draw they have 4 lands by the time you hit 3, killing more lands.


Dark Ritual

I don't play Rituals, but I think you should. T1 Liliana with your deck is going to be back breaking. You can also run into black mana problems if you keep blowing up you own lands. They aren't horrible late here.


1 cmc discard

I personally have been trimming the numbers but I might have gone a little far recently. 3-5 is definitely worthwhile. In this aggro list, if they want to jam Big Pox IOK is superior to Thoughtseize. If you are blowing up their lands they are going to be casting cmc 1-3 more often than 4+. The life loss is annoying but not horrible. If you fire the Thoughtseize first the numbers can be fudged. (This is also something to note with your fetches. You can mitigate some life loss by losing it elsewhere.)


4 innocent blood...

1 mana removal spells are important, especially when blowing your own lands. Fatal Push slid into some IB slots. I run 3 IB and 2 FP.


Bitterblossom

Not with Big Pox.


7-8 swamp
4-5 Fetches
4 Mishra's factory
4 Wasteland
4 urborg
4 pox
4 small pox
4 hymn to tourach
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 innocent blood
4 liliana of the veil
4 bloodghast
3 shrieking affliction
1 liliana, the last hope
4 dark ritual

side
4 Leyline of the void
2 surgical/extirpate
3-4 pithing needle
1-2 toxic deluge/Bontu's Last Reckoning
2 Bitterblossom
1-2 Liliana, the last Hope


p.s. With Pox and a Lil' Hope ult, you could view this as 17 wincons.

[Mr. Safety]

I wasn't sure if bitterblossom went well with big pox. Between that, fetches and pox that is a LOT of self inflicted life loss and wasn't sure if putting myself into range of a few bolts was a great idea. I was thinking those would be more sideboard tech that I would pull big pox out for if it came down to it. But it certainly protects delve creatures/gives blockers/rebuilds the board quickly.

Bingo, it's good in matchups where Pox isn't (Miracles, Czech Pile.)

[kombatkiwi]

* Bloodghasts are unplayable without fetches.
* Buried Alive is casual fodder. Not playable in a competitive legacy environment.
* Wasteland is crucial to a disruptive deck.
* Big pox is unplayable. And LotV is a top tier card. Almost every Pox deck that has had tourney success has run her.
* Dark Rituals belong in combo decks. Pox decks rely on virtual card advatange and top decks. I'm not saying they are unplayable, but they do make your deck more inconsistent.
* T1 discard spells are crucial in legacy. How do you fight against decks like show and tell or storm if you just pass T1?
* If you are not running 4 innocent blood, why are you even playing Pox? In a format filled with Deathrite Shamans and Delvers, Collective Brutaily is just so slow and just walks you into a daze.

The statement 'Wasteland is crucial to a disruptive deck' needs a bit more unpacking and Prison decks also play 1-shot accelerants but the rest of this is a good post I think

(Buried alive has had some success in the necrotic ooze deck but that's obviously an entirely different conversation)

[fluuu]

can someone post a good control pox deck? thanks

[ronco]

probably as good as any to start with:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19221&d=321834&f=LE




1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Ifnir Deadlands
1 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
9 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Spawning Pool
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 Beseech the Queen
4 Dark Ritual
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Nether Void
2 Phyrexian Totem


SIDEBOARD

3 Bitterblossom
1 Bloodline Keeper
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Lost Legacy
1 Phyrexian Obliterator
2 Pithing Needle


From Adachi Ryosuke, 2 out of 76 in KMC 95 just over a month ago.

[fluuu]

Dont u like the abyss here?¿

[ronco]

Maybe?
as far as creature control:

4 innocent blood
4 lili OTV
4 small pox
1 toxic deluge
1 maze of ith
1 tabernacle
2 lili, last hope (kinda)
2 cursed scroll

Seems like creatures are well taken care of in this list. Plus, one creature per turn might be too slow for legacy, but i'm not sure. Maybe in other builds but ill let the more experienced players chime in.

[Hardcore]

Buried alive seems not be well understood here, let's change that.
I suppose the perspective of the control Pox lead players to defensive thinking. This make them overlook an important fact: Delver decks are not especially fast. They tend to ponder turn one, or just sit tight waiting for targets to counter. A hard cast Bloodghast is bad news in that situation. They can't handle it, and have also lost the initiative.
Triple ghasts are of course three times the bad news.

Not only Delver decks are vulnerable. For example a turn one Buried alive helped me defeat a Turbo Depths I encountered once at the lgs.
Then there is Burn. It is a deck you defeat by being faster, and here we have a card that really help with that.

Darkblast was mentioned by Mr. Safety. This is a card best to avoid. It can easily lead to a death spiral where you need to dredge for it while the opponent draw more valuable cards from the deck.

[Megadeus]

Is there a reason I never see crucible in pox? I feel like between wasteland, factories blocking, and cabal pit crucible is like an easy include. I'm sure there's a reason, I just don't know it

[Hardcore]

Maybe?
as far as creature control:

4 innocent blood
4 lili OTV
4 small pox
1 toxic deluge
1 maze of ith
1 tabernacle
2 lili, last hope (kinda)
2 cursed scroll

Seems like creatures are well taken care of in this list. Plus, one creature per turn might be too slow for legacy, but i'm not sure. Maybe in other builds but ill let the more experienced players chime in.

That there is a control Pox configuration.
Aggro don't bother with creature defense unless it matters. For example, the ubiquitous death-rite shaman is killed not because it is a threat but because it is mana acceleration that help the opponent play more valuable spells.
This is the list I use nowadays. It is as pure Aggro i can make it:

4 shrieking affliction
4 Bloodghast
4 nihilith
1 buried alive

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Collective Brutality
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
3 liliana of the veil
2 liliana, the last hope
4 dark ritual

4 bloodstained mire
1 polluted delta
4 marsh flats
13 Swamp


It is up to you if you want to play aggressive or defensive. Only thing to avoid is to create a deck that is weird hybrid of the both.

[Hardcore]

Is there a reason I never see crucible in pox? I feel like between wasteland, factories blocking, and cabal pit crucible is like an easy include. I'm sure there's a reason, I just don't know it

There have been some talk about land destruction being less effective nowadays. Sink hole is less popular. Could be that.

[ronco]

Hardcore - Agreed, that response of mine you quoted was to the poster above looking at a control build.

[Hardcore]

Hardcore - Agreed, that response of mine you quoted was to the poster above looking at a control build.
Ah, ok. :laugh:

[Pittplayer]

Buried alive seems not be well understood here, let's change that.
I suppose the perspective of the control Pox lead players to defensive thinking. This make them overlook an important fact: Delver decks are not especially fast. They tend to ponder turn one, or just sit tight waiting for targets to counter. A hard cast Bloodghast is bad news in that situation. They can't handle it, and have also lost the initiative.
Triple ghasts are of course three times the bad news.

Not only Delver decks are vulnerable. For example a turn one Buried alive helped me defeat a Turbo Depths I encountered once in the lgs.
Then there is Burn. It is a deck you defeat by being faster, and here we have a card that really help with that.

Darkblast was mentioned by Mr. Safety. This is a card best to avoid. It can easily lead to a death spiral where you need to dredge for it while the opponent draw more valuable cards from the deck.

Delver decks are not fast? They tend to just ponder turn one? They sit tight and wait for targets to counter? Wut? Delver wants to land a drs or a delver turn one. They are a tempo deck. They play fast threats and have force and daze to counter while still playing threats. The way to beat delver is not to try to ramp to a t3 buried alive that is going to get dazed and your ghasts are going to be eaten by drs. Vs daze you want to T1 Innocent Blood T2 Smallpox T3 Hymn, while dumping your ghast into your gy with the smallpox play. If you are trying to hit 3 mana t3 vs delver to play buried alive.. I promise you that you are not winning that match. And it is even worse to try to dark ritual into a buried alive T1, which is just getting forced.

[Hardcore]

Delver decks are not fast? They tend to just ponder turn one? They sit tight and wait for targets to counter? Wut? Delver wants to land a drs or a delver turn one. They are a tempo deck. They play fast threats and have force and daze to counter while still playing threats. The way to beat delver is not to try to ramp to a t3 buried alive that is going to get dazed and your ghasts are going to be eaten by drs. Vs daze you want to T1 Innocent Blood T2 Smallpox T3 Hymn, while dumping your ghast into your gy with the smallpox play. If you are trying to hit 3 mana t3 vs delver to play buried alive.. I promise you that you are not winning that match. And it is even worse to try to dark ritual into a buried alive T1, which is just getting forced.

Indeed. They don't have Delver of secrets in every opening hand, nor force or daze. Thing is they rely very much on their cantrip package to fix things for them, avoiding mulligans. A hand with Lands and ponder is usually a keep for them, whereas I always must mulligan a hand with no win condition.

Second, if they do not know what you play they need to avoid leave an opening for what could be a combo. Thus a Polluted delta is a good first turn play for a Pox deck.

[Mr. Safety]

Darkblast[/B] was mentioned by Mr. Safety. This is a card best to avoid. It can easily lead to a death spiral where you need to dredge for it while the opponent draw more valuable cards from the deck.

Not trying to pick a fight here, but I'm really surprised at this statement. I've always had very good results with Darkblast. It has been replaced, to a small extent, by the new Liliana, but it's still really, really good.

How is Darkblast *not* literally the nuts against Grixis Delver/Death and Taxes/Elves? It kills unflipped delvers, flipped delvers (cast at upkeep, dredge, cast again), Young Pyromancers, Young Pyromancer tokens, almost all elves, Mother of Runes, Flickerwhisp, Phyrexian Revoker, Stoneforge Mystic, the list goes on and on. All the while, it can be left in the graveyard if you need your draw step or dredged if you need it. The only creatures it doesn't deal with are TNN and Gurmag Angler, both of which can be cleaned up with Smallpox/Liliana/Pox.

I'm really curious where Darkblast would ever be a liability. If they are drawing valuable cards (threats) you can match it with machine-gun removal. Until Darkblast is removed from the game it's a ton of inevitability.

[kombatkiwi]

It has been replaced, to a small extent, by the new Liliana.

I think it's actually good WITH the new Liliana because it combines with it to kill X/2s

Darkblast-Dredge3-Darkblast was fine in the actual dredge deck because 2-for-1ing yourself didn't matter when you were killing Teeg and winning the game immediately. 2-for-1ing yourself to kill a delver or a DRS isn't something I'm interested in doing, but i think 1 Darkblast could be ok/good

[Hardcore]

Not trying to pick a fight here, but I'm really surprised at this statement. I've always had very good results with Darkblast. It has been replaced, to a small extent, by the new Liliana, but it's still really, really good.

How is Darkblast *not* literally the nuts against Grixis Delver/Death and Taxes/Elves? It kills unflipped delvers, flipped delvers (cast at upkeep, dredge, cast again), Young Pyromancers, Young Pyromancer tokens, almost all elves, Mother of Runes, Flickerwhisp, Phyrexian Revoker, Stoneforge Mystic, the list goes on and on. All the while, it can be left in the graveyard if you need your draw step or dredged if you need it. The only creatures it doesn't deal with are TNN and Gurmag Angler, both of which can be cleaned up with Smallpox/Liliana/Pox.

I'm really curious where Darkblast would ever be a liability. If they are drawing valuable cards (threats) you can match it with machine-gun removal. Until Darkblast is removed from the game it's a ton of inevitability.

Darkblast is excellent against all the cards you mentioned, and I should know since I once pushed it a lot on the forums.(good against Delver as noted).
It is not my hate cards of choice against those decks, however.

There are some problems;
You don't dredge for it when you need it, you must dredge it up before that so you have an instant creature kill to play at the opponents eot. (this assume you already cast it once)

Anther problem is that killing creatures with toughness two result in another tempo loss since you need two draws to kill what the opponent drew once.
(It is not a machine gun. More like a 22 caliber sniper rifle. Some targets need two bullets)

Because of this I have too often got trapped in a desperate choice between dredge up DB or try top deck something that can change my position from defense to offense.

Nowadays I prefer cards like Engineered Plague backed up by efficient sweepers.

[Hardcore]

I wasn't sure if bitterblossom went well with big pox. Between that, fetches and pox that is a LOT of self inflicted life loss and wasn't sure if putting myself into range of a few bolts was a great idea. I was thinking those would be more sideboard tech that I would pull big pox out for if it came down to it. But it certainly protects delve creatures/gives blockers/rebuilds the board quickly.

I've pulled out 3 urborg, 2 factory, 1 wasteland for 6 fetches in the mean time to try out and the mana base does feel a lot better. I don't know I am comfortable completely cutting wasteland as it seems very versatile in the format, but again I have no idea. I temporarily pulled big pox in favor of delve creatures and left the rest the same, and it handled my G/R aggro deck better (all I've had time to test against), for what that is worth. Not sure if that will stay since I want to play big pox IF I can make it work or at least not be terrible.


In response to the others:
-I don't have surgical now, only have extirpate, which is why that is there. Someday...
-IoK and similar cards being weak is a bit surprising to me. Is that comment made to imply thoughtsieze is better or all one mana for one card cards are not great in that build?
-I keep forgetting about maze of ith and ratchet bomb. this is where lack of experience hurts as I don't run into problem creatures/permanents often vs my limited pool of decks.
-on the way to work this morning, I had a terrible idea of considering prized amalgram along side the bloodghasts. But that is probably 100% too cute for competitive decks.
-regarding dark rits, I had pulled them as the consensus seemed to be split, and it gave me 4 more slots for tech. Since everything was 3 or less mana I didn't think it was terribly necessary but maybe I misunderstood the builds people were saying it was needed/not needed in.

thanks for the feedback on the rest, plenty I had overlooked. with the exception of nether void builds, I can put together just about any version of mono black pox or vaka pox (the Bw build, right?). Big pox agro was the one I was wanting to start with. I'm sure I'll find my sweet spot after getting it to some real events in due time.

Got time to go back and comment on discard and wasteland.

Way back, 15? Years ago, I quit playing Mono B in type 1, as it was called then. To much broken stuff in the format, and all the discard in the world did not help. Years later I saw the Smallpox card for the first time and realized this was the future of discard. I got back into the game again and have been perfecting Pox since then.

I have, again, realized that 1cc discard spells do nothing for me. They trade one for one, not furthering the game plan.
Some would like to have them in the main against combo and such. Well that does not further the game plan either. (Nor does Burn play Pyroblast in main help them win. Same thing.)
I have also won through heavy discard aimed at my self. Thoughtseize, cabal therapy, no hand. So what. My opponent is short on spells too at that point. With no 1cc discard I am at an advantage in the top deck war.

That I don't run wasteland is to avoid losing tempo. It is better to play swamps and build up my manabase so I can cast my high value spells..
Then of course you will have wasteland when you don't need it, and miss it when you do.

[naynay666]

I have, again, realized that 1cc discard spells do nothing for me. They trade one for one, not furthering the game plan.

While the trading is low (and can miss!) when compared to Hymn or (almost) anything else that discards, the information gained by viewing their hand is incredibly valuable.

[naynay666]

I got to play Legacy twice this week.

Wednesday from my previously posted list. (Page 213, #4247)
-2 Swamps, -1 Maze , -1 IOK
+2 Urborg, +1 BBlossom, +1 EBridge

Dredge 0-2
The nuts followed by not good enough hate. Ensnaring was Cabal’d out game 1 and hate was late to the party game 2. Had to Smallpox my own Factory to pop Bridge from Below. That sucked. Needed a Bridge or a wrath I never saw.

Bye (played a Pox mirror with a friend 1-1)
The secret is get Lily down and Cursed Scroll online asap. That’s how he won game 1 and how I controlled game 2. He started the second game by needling my 3 Factory hand. There were 7-8 turns of “Shoot your Lily, uptick, pass.” It was awesome. I won it with a Lil’ Hope Ult & Bitterblossom after paying 7 for Tabernacle.

Living Fins 1-2
Game 1 Fetch pass. Swamp pass, eot crackafetch, Entomb. Urborg, Exhume Grizzy, go to 6, Unmask stuff, pass. Maze of Ith pass. Fast mana fast mana Grave Titan zombies zombies zombies…
Game 2. Bitterblossom, Smallpox and Lily.
Game 3 Fetchland pass. Swamp Cursed Scroll pass. Shallow and swing Grizzbiz, draw draw draw gain it back with Kids of Korlis, draw draw draw, fast mana fast mana Living Wish Lab Maniac draw draw draw win.

Sylvan Miracles 2-1 (I made that name up. Miracles with Green for Sylvan Library, Mirri’s Guile & Loam.)
Game 1 I curved pretty nastily into a scoop.
Game 2 my opponent won at 2 life after an epic back and forth. His Council Judged 2 Phyrexian Totems, a Karn and a Bitterblossom in that order. I had to double Needle a Jace that I never saw due to the knowledge of a Judgement in his hand that I actually wanted to slap on Azcanta. Totem became the next best target. Game 3 had him on his heels the whole time and it went pretty quickly.

1-2 or 2-2 if you want to sugarcoat a bye*.

*I only got the bye because some asshole Iona’d out a 10 year old burn player twice and he dropped from his first Legacy event.

Friday
Dropped 1 to go back to 2 Bridges and brought back that IOK. (1 iok/2 TS)

15 PLAYERS, 2 POXERS. BIGGEST META SHARE.

BUG Aluren 0-2
This has always difficult for me. Half the creatures ooze card advantage and the other half with the game.
Game 1 I controlled for quite some time but he answered my threats. Lil’ Veil Ultimate split Aluren and 5 lands and he kept the card the deck is named after. Fast forward I couldn’t find a threat and eventually he hit the combo.
Game 2 Curve into Lost Legacy naming Aluren. Felt pretty good. Unfortunately his Lil’ Hope ultimated the turn before mine. We eventually were both 250ish zombies wide but it didn’t matter. I couldn’t answer Baleful Strix for an embarrassingly long time. I had 3 edicts and no wraths.

He played the other Pox player the next round and lost 7 games against a much more traditional list.

Miracles 2-0
Game 1 win the roll. My opener was something like IOK, IB, Spox, Lil V, 3 Swamps. IOK into STP, Predict, SnapCaster, Terminus, Surpreme Verdict, Island, Fetch. Grabbed Predict. That hand didn’t do anything against me and I would be able to draw out a subpar Snappy eot to combat my upticked Lily. Let Lily get hit, IB, uptick. Shortly thereafter Karn & Bitterblossom. At the end, Karnstructing tokens was better than drawing cards.
Game 2 kept him off Jace mana for a while while stripping the rest of his hand. My Totem was followed by his Jace and which was then eaten by the Totem. My opponent was then eaten by the Totem and a Factory.

Grixis Delver 1-2
Game 1 I answered everything dropped and upticked Lil’ Hope into a (possibly premature) scoop.
Game 2 Controlled the early game but I couldn’t answer going wide. Bitterblossom is slow in the face of Delver and Pyromancer tokens.
Game 3 I answered everything he dropped and was starting come in with Cursed Scroll damage and then he cast 2 Gurmanglers. IB one. Block the other with a Totem and sac a dickton of not needed lands and a faerie token. Drops TNN a naming Nathan. Lil’ Hope downtick (DID YOU GUYS KNOW THAT CARD COULD DOWNTICK?) get back Mangler drop a god damn Mangler. I top deck a swamp. Swing I go to 10. I top deck a swamp. Swing I go to 2. I top deck a swamp. I had all the removal in the world but it was targeted or not big enough. No board wipes.

D&T 2-1
Game 1 My opponent won at 33 life. The skull batters.
Game 2 My controlled the hand and any bodies that hit the table. Forced the Batterskull discard early. Cursed Scroll put in a lot of work and I killed a lot of Revokers to do so. Scooped to a very oppressive board state.
Game 3 started the same and ended with Factory and Totem. Totem had to stop swinging for a while with Vial on 3 and unknowns in the hand but was able to join the alpha strike.

2-2.

[Marauder]

Hello Poxers! Been lurking for awhile and decided it was time to make my first post. I've recently found time in my life to play legacy again and have been playing a pox list. So I'm going to share with you my list, looking for some input and I'll also share my latest local tournament info after.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mishras Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland
1 Badlands
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Mountain
6 Swamp

4 Bloodghast
1 Tombstalker

4 Collective Brutality
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Innocent Blood

1 Dismember
3 Kolaghan's Command

4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana the Last Hope
2 Karn, Scion of Urza

1 Nether Void

Sideboard
2 Leyline of the Void (trying to get more)
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Engineered Plague
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sinkhole
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Pyroblast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Maze of Ith

On Friday I went 3-1 With this.
Round One vs Burn I went 0-2 (geez who didnt see this coming)

Round 2 vs Bomberman I went 2-0 never felt pressured at all. Got Nether void both times which helped.

Round 3 vs Slow Depths I went 2-1 first game was a quick loss to a nasty 20/20. Sideboard went in and took the games.

Round 4 vs DnT 2-0 again, never felt pressured at all. K Command did wonders here. 2 for ones everywhere.

So I'll keep posting and looking. Hope to hear some input. Thanks! Also if this posts wonky, I'll fix it at home I'm on my phone.

[DungeonShade]

Streaming here occasionally:

https://www.twitch.tv/dungeonshade

[naynay666]

On Friday I went 3-1 With this.
Round One vs Burn I went 0-2 (geez who didnt see this coming)

Round 2 vs Bomberman I went 2-0 never felt pressured at all. Got Nether void both times which helped.

Round 3 vs Slow Depths I went 2-1 first game was a quick loss to a nasty 20/20. Sideboard went in and took the games.

Round 4 vs DnT 2-0 again, never felt pressured at all. K Command did wonders here. 2 for ones everywhere.

The K Command splash is spicy and I love it.

I was wondering why Burn was difficult with 4 Collective Brutality, but then I saw 4 SPox, 3 Thoughtseize, 4 Fetchlands and a Dismember. That's 14-18 life you are conceding even before 2 copies of Toxic Deluge. That mana base doesn't hold up well against Price of Progress either.

Good job on the rest. Bomberman is probably pretty easy with a Nether Void in play. The other two matches can be difficult, especially any Depths variant.

I want to K Command a Batterskull pretty badly.

Sinkhole seems odd to me in the board but it might make sense. My mana base strips a lot of the nonbasics- so with a red splash I would be tempted to consider Blood Moon.

[Marauder]

I have not been disappointed by the k command yet. The sideboard is a WIP right now though. I thought blood moon would be too detrimental to my own mana base so I decided against it. Thanks for the response!

[Hardcore]

Smallpox is good vs burn. Thoughtseize otoh is just something to discard with Smallpox. Price of progress is probably what makes it an auto loss.

[Mr. Safety]

Smallpox is good vs burn. Thoughtseize otoh is just something to discard with Smallpox. Price of progress is probably what makes it an auto loss.

That and their amount of live draws is absurd. Every spell does the same thing, and they draw one at least every other turn. Burn is overwhelmingly better at top-decking than Pox.

[Hardcore]

That and their amount of live draws is absurd. Every spell does the same thing, and they draw one at least every other turn. Burn is overwhelmingly better at top-decking than Pox.

Pox got lots of cards to blunt the assault; Smallpox, liliana, Hymn, connective Brutality, spinning darkness... Problem is to have fast ways to win. Find a solution to that and you should at least get a 50/50 match up. (I think i do better than that, but then I play aggro)

[Marauder]

I saw a list on top 8 that has Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet in the sideboard. He seems like the kind of creature that would crush burn. Especially being able to sac bloodghasts to pump. Thoughts?

[Hardcore]

I saw a list on top 8 that has Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet in the sideboard. He seems like the kind of creature that would crush burn. Especially being able to sac bloodghasts to pump. Thoughts?

I would say it is too slow. It swings for three on turn five. By that time you are dead unless you cast Hymn to Tourach, or Smallpox to show him down.
The idea of lifelink is clever but there is no creature that is both cheap to cast and hard to kill. Except for Contraband Kingpin .

[OmniStrata]

:laugh:If burn is your problem and you run Crucible of Worlds, maybe you should sideboard Syphon Life.:laugh:
*cue random explosions*

[Mr. Safety]

Pox got lots of cards to blunt the assault; Smallpox, liliana, Hymn, connective Brutality, spinning darkness... Problem is to have fast ways to win. Find a solution to that and you should at least get a 50/50 match up. (I think i do better than that, but then I play aggro)

http://deckbox.org/system/images/mtg/cards/233240.jpg

[Marauder]

Witchbane orb is cute. My local shop has a few burn players. Most of the time I just hope not to get matched with them. With my red splash I was hoping I could get more than k command in there, but really that's it unless I wanted to play around with Daretti or Angrath.

[Mr. Safety]

Witchbane orb is cute. My local shop has a few burn players. Most of the time I just hope not to get matched with them. With my red splash I was hoping I could get more than k command in there, but really that's it unless I wanted to play around with Daretti or Angrath.

Blood Moon, then Sinkhole their basics.

[Pittplayer]

Blood Moon, then Sinkhole their basics.

Blood Moon the burn player? I hope you're joking.

[Mr. Safety]

Blood Moon the burn player? I hope you're joking.

Not advocating this against burn at all. This was in reference to splashing red further than just kcommand, in general. Sorry I wasn't clear.

[Pittplayer]

I have played Pox decks of all splashes. And let me tell you, the best card in red for Pox is... Faithless Looting.

[naynay666]

Sorry here's another short writeup.

LIST:

2x Bitterblossom
2x Fatal Push
3x Innocent Blood
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
2x Collective Brutality
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Phyrexian Totem
2x Karn, Scion of Urza
4x Liliana of the Veil
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Maze of Ith
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
18x Swamp

Sideboard
2x Pithing Needle
2x Damping Sphere
2x Extirpate
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Bontu's Last Reckoning
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal

No Rituals, no Wastelands.

Rd 1 Goblin Food Chain
Odd number of players and I got the bye. Seconds in, like a Rampaging Goblin, the 10th Legacy player burst into the store and we paired up.
Game 1. I have had this matchup a handful of times but this was the first time a Lackey connected. It did what it does. After that he ran away with it the game going 8 goblins wide eating Lily after Lily after Lily. Whatever Goblins were left finished it up.

SB: NoSB and Bontu’s for both Bitterblossoms and a Smallpox.

Game 2. EoT Push the first Goblin, hit a Hymn, Lil’ Hope uptick shoot a dude, turn 4 Night of Soul’s Betrayal scoop.
Game 3. I got an early jump and controlled the whole game partially due to his blowing up an Ensnaring Bridge instead of a Cursed Scroll.
2-1

Rd 2 Elves
Game 1. T1 fetch, drs. Cursed Scroll. T2 fetch, rec sage. Bitterblossom. T3 Played the bounce an elf insect. I didn’t drop Bridge to avoid it getting blown up immediately. T4 I kinda zoned out when he cast the third Glimpse and he woke me up by shaking a Craterhoof at me.

SB: Edict, NoSB and Bontu’s for both Bitterblossoms and Bridges

Game 2. Turn 2 and 3 Smallpoxes both hit really hard but he was able to chain Visionaries and Insects to recover faster than I could remove.
We played Games 3-5 anyway. Open with a Push or Innocent Blood, follow up with Hymn. Drop any of the Lilianas. Boardwipe or Karn. Boardwipe more. My opponent laughed the whole time. This is how the matchup has been going for me lately but I lost the two that Wizards cares about.
0-2 (3-2)

Rd 3 Big Eldrazi
Game 1. Kept Lil’ Veil, 2 IB, 3 swamps and a Factory on the draw. Chalice on 1. Draw an IOK. Swampass. T2 ThoughtKnot, strip Lily. Draw and drop Bitterblossom with a Factory. T3 Swing take 4. Draw a Cursed Scroll. Play Innocent Blood through a Chalice. Draw a land. The T4 Thoughtknot snag Cursed Scroll, noticed the play through the Chalice. Rip and drop a Lily, downtick. Draw a Hymn. T5 ThoughtKnot again. Smallpox, Hymn. After that I beat in with Faeries and Factories.

SB: He noted I didn’t seem too hindered by Chalice on 1. Which either means “side this out…” or a bluff. I sided out 2 Fatal Push and 1 Collective Brutality for 2 Bontu’s and 1 Diabolic Edict.

Game 2. Kept 3 Factories, Totem, Karn, Bitterblossom and a Hymn. Opponent opens with an Eldrazi Temple. Draw a Hymn, drop a Factory, pass. T2 Eldrazi Temple taps both oh shit oh shit oh shit oh shit NOT A THOUGHTKNOT Grim Monolith, pass. Rip a Swamp, stick a Bitterblossom. Woo! T3 More Sol lands and the artifact that turns into a copy of a creature/artifact/land. Factory into Totem. T4 Trinisphere. Karn, exiles a Karn nets a swamp. T5 He drops a Karn. Swing & Kill his Karn, draw cards with mine. T6 he drops a body and counters my Hymn. Cast another strip a Newlamog that he could have cast the next turn. Eventually get a Lily on the board to help jam the Bitterblossom tokens, factories and Totem for the win. Alpha strike had Diabolic Edict backup.
2-0

Rd 4
Grixis Delver.
This opponent is a very tight magic player whom I always enjoy playing against. He had to go so he conceded to me. Bummer. I really want to practice this matchup specifically.

3-1 in the books, 2-1 forreal.

MVPs were Bitterblossom and the 1 mana removal spells. When they arrived early I won. The Hymns were also running hot last night. Collective Brutality did work in the Elves (fun) match(es).

Karn is wonderful- coming down and ticking to 6 means you don’t lose it the next turn like you do if you drop Lil Veil against two bodies. Lil Hope also has that going for her- going to 4 and killing or mitigating an attacker enables sticking around a little longer. 8 Walkers as a whole has allowed me to be more liberal with my Veil castings. It isn’t the end of the world if I lose a couple Lilianas early.

Never saw Maze but it would have been good in every matchup. I tried 2 and loved them but took 1 out for the 3rd Bridge (which I took out for an IOK). Bridge underperformed. It was blown up, too slow, not ensnaring enough or unnecessary. Both copies of Bontu’s Last Reckoning came in every game. Makes me think another maindeck wrath would also be good. Maybe next time I will swap the Bridges to double up on Deluge and Maze.

[Marauder]

How are we feeling about Bontu's Last Reckoning vs Toxic Deluge?

[naynay666]

How are we feeling about Bontu's Last Reckoning vs Toxic Deluge?

They both have their merits. I tried Deluge before Bontu's main but eventually went back. Deluge can suck in the face of Gumangler but was an Allstar against Elves or Goblins. When I need to kill all the creatures, I bring in extra Bontu's. Bontu's is best when they overextend and you don't have to worry about possibly being defenseless for a turn.

I suppose Toxic Deluge is superior turns 3-6 and Bontu is superior in the late game. That being said I wonder if I'm doing it wrong by maindecking Deluge and supplementing it with Bontu. Perhaps it should be the other way around.

[OmniStrata]

Huge advocate of Bontu's here. That reckoning is sweet when paid for via Totem or Dark ritual. Life loss is too much pain when poxing. Though I don't run Big Pox, I do miss the card. Aggro decks don't mind you bleeding to kill everything. But Dark Ritual into Wrath of God is epic. 1 land tapped next turn to live? Small price to pay. But it does depend on meta, ultimately. Lots of biggies, Bontu>Deluge, Weenies? Deluge>Bontu's. :cool:

[Marauder]

My meta supports deluge. Most of the time I cast it for 1 or 2. Few reanimators and show and tells around here. Lots of weenies though. I can see how they both have merit though.

[Brad Gibson]

Hello,

Long time reader, first time poster here. Thanks for everyone who has contributed to the thread, which has been very helpful in constructing legacy Pox.

It looks like Deathrite Shaman was just banned! Do you guys think this makes sinkhole more viable? I know the biggest problem is Daze and fetchlands, but DRS making mana didn't help... I also wonder if the meta will shift to a point where sinkhole is more disruptive.

-Brad

[Marauder]

My issue with sinkhole is that it never felt like it did enough even against decks that did not run DRS. Destroying land is cute, but it makes up the majority of most decks so they always had more and could still cast something to make the table worse for you. So while you may or may not be slowing them down, they are still casting brainstorm, lightning bolt, whatever.

[Hardcore]

DRS and probe banned.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/july-2-2018-banned-and-restricted-update-2018-07-02


Interesting. I would expect dredge to get a minor resurgence.

[naynay666]

I started playing Legacy about the time Deathrite was release so The Elf Shaman’s meta is all I have known. It seems like the rest of The Source is predicting some of our more difficult matches will become more prevalent.

Reanimator/Dredge:
Griselbrand sucks but Iona suuuccckkkkkss. Liliana’s are both a little worse. Hymns get way worse. Smallpox isn’t the best. 1 mana discard teeters between playable and bad. Bontu’s is better than Deluge but still isn’t great. Diabolic Edict seems like it will be good. I have played a maindeck Extraction before with some success and it might be time to consider it again.

Lands:
Hopefully this gets caught up in the crossfire of excessive graveyard hate and gets played less.

Miracles:
Snapcaster gets better for the deck and the deck gets better across the field. We’ll see more of it but it isn’t the monster it once was.

Sneak and Show:
Winable but difficult. Hymn is awesome here, as is Lily. We have the pieces to win we just need to draw them better than a Blue deck. Extracting Grissy, Emmy or the deck’s namesake works well. Bridge is good.

RUG Delver:
Goose and Stifle. This deck usually only plays 3-4 different bodies (Delver/Goose/Goyf/TNN/Mandrills) and 4 copies of Volc and Trop. Extractions work here pretty well, especially if you are on the Wasteland/Sinkhole plan. Be prepared to get Dazed even when you can pay just to lose the target. That being said that moment makes a surprise Extirpate really fun.

You know what sucks? Forgetting about Stifle and losing out on an Ultimate.

White:
The fairest of them all. More Swords, more Moms, more SFM. Stoneblade variants abound- get ready to fight Batterskull with FoW backup.

I thought I had too much graveyard hate but now I might not have enough. My plan on Monday was drop Leylines for a couple more Surgicals and give Nihil Spellbomb a try. Now I think 4 Leylines and 2/2 Extir/Extract for a total of 8 slots isn’t completely ridiculous.

I might reconsider Dark Ritual if fast combo becomes the norm.

[Mr. Safety]

Polish off your sinkhole folks.

Also, your best matchup will now be everywhere (rug delver. )

[Hardcore]

I am thinking of going back to wasteland/urborg. At least for testing.

[OmniStrata]

Polish off your sinkhole folks.

Also, your best matchup will now be everywhere (rug delver. )

Woo hoo. Time to feed Pox.dec a new meta!! :laugh::laugh::cool::cool:

[Hardcore]

My test with Wasteland is over. It still sucks.

[fluuu]

My test with Wasteland is over. It still sucks.

list?

[Brad Gibson]

I tested against a D&T list tonight which ran the new Brightling card. I found the thing hard to kill with our usual creature removal. With the cards most decks run, the only way to get rid of it seems to be to cast smallpox when the opponent is hellbent, use any removal spell when they are tapped out (which they will obviously be reluctant to do), or use a removal spell, have them bounce it, and then make them discard it (unless they have an aether vial on 3 in play). The latter option is obviously not ideal... It honestly makes me want to consider Tainted Aether to punish them for continually bouncing it.

[ParisFlorian]

I tested against a D&T list tonight which ran the new Brightling card. I found the thing hard to kill with our usual creature removal. With the cards most decks run, the only way to get rid of it seems to be to cast smallpox when the opponent is hellbent, use any removal spell when they are tapped out (which they will obviously be reluctant to do), or use a removal spell, have them bounce it, and then make them discard it (unless they have an aether vial on 3 in play). The latter option is obviously not ideal... It honestly makes me want to consider Tainted Aether to punish them for continually bouncing it.

I confirm Brightling is annoying. The Abyss can help here.

[Hardcore]

I tested against a D&T list tonight which ran the new Brightling card. I found the thing hard to kill with our usual creature removal. With the cards most decks run, the only way to get rid of it seems to be to cast smallpox when the opponent is hellbent, use any removal spell when they are tapped out (which they will obviously be reluctant to do), or use a removal spell, have them bounce it, and then make them discard it (unless they have an aether vial on 3 in play). The latter option is obviously not ideal... It honestly makes me want to consider Tainted Aether to punish them for continually bouncing it.

I can see it becoming a problem. It is another pithing needle target, but even if it is needled it is a 3/3 body that must be killed.
The best solution is probably to get a game state that neutralize it. Needle the Vial and nuke the lands to stop it being cast. Or Abyss. Or Dark Depths. Or Maze of Ith. Or Needles AND Revoker. Or..

[ParisFlorian]

My test with Wasteland is over. It still sucks.

Do you mean in a creature package ?

Personnally I am still fan of it, in a Sinkhole-Void-Chains build (especially if there are more basics in the post ban meta).
I also consider running a single Port, but since I also play Tabernacle and Maze, maybe I would have to rely too heavily on Urborg.

Florian

[Hardcore]

Do you mean in a creature package ?

Personnally I am still fan of it, in a Sinkhole-Void-Chains build (especially if there are more basics in the post ban meta).
I also consider running a single Port, but since I also play Tabernacle and Maze, maybe I would have to rely too heavily on Urborg.

Florian


Yes, exactly. When you play the wasteland you lose tempo, since most likely the opponent have allready played his eldrazi or so.
Great in the land destruction package, but better for me to stick to swamps.

There was also that amusing incident yesterday when my Urborg let my opponent draw mana from Eye of Ugin and casta chalice on one.
Stopped me from playing the Shrieking Affliction and race for the win.

[OmniStrata]

Do you mean in a creature package ?

Personnally I am still fan of it, in a Sinkhole-Void-Chains build (especially if there are more basics in the post ban meta).
I also consider running a single Port, but since I also play Tabernacle and Maze, maybe I would have to rely too heavily on Urborg.

Florian

I run Sink Waste Void classic prison. How to make room for big Pox? With DRS gone, tempted to add more land killing in my mix. Was considering Rancid Earth as a weenie nuke. I tend to hit threshold early. But Pox is just better for same cmc. That'd be 12 mana killing cards. A long time ago, I ran sphere of resistance instead of sinkhole... Despite the symmetry it couldn't be used to our advantage like the poxes can.

[Hardcore]

list?


This is what I tested on Untap.In;

4 shrieking affliction
4 Bloodghast
4 nihilith
1 buried alive

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Collective Brutality
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
3 liliana of the veil
2 liliana, the last hope
4 dark ritual

4 bloodstained mire
1 polluted delta
4 wasteland
11 Swamp
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth


It is basically my standard list but with changes to the mana base.

[kombatkiwi]

There was a pox 5-0 in the first league since the DRS unban


OSMANOZGUNEY (5-0)

Planeswalker (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
Creature (2)
2 Nether Spirit
Sorcery (21)
1 Beseech the Queen
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
Artifact (5)
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
Enchantment (1)
1 Nether Void
Land (27)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
10 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Tomb of Urami
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
60 Cards
Sideboard (15)
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Dark Confidant
2 Duress
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge

Osman Ozguney is a well-known MODO grinder, this is not just a list from some random guy
We see a lot of similarities between this list and Adachi Ryosuke latest list:
- 27 Lands with a similar selection (4 Factory 4 Waste 4 Urborg 1 Bog 1 Tabernacle 1 Maze)
- 4 Innocent Blood 4 Smallpox 4 Discard Spell (IOK instead of Thoughtseize)
- 1 Beseech 2 Cursed Scroll 1 Ensnaring Bridge
- Maindeck Nether Void but not Abyss or Chains

Interesting differences
- 2 Nether Spirits (zero Nether Spirit has always been the hardest thing for me to understand about the lists from AR, this card always seems so strong and he wasn't even playing any creatures in the first place. I guess it's better now that DRS doesn't exist and RUG might be more popular where it's very good at blocking Mongoose and Tarmogoyf)
- 4 Sinkhole, 0 Dark Ritual
- 4 Hymn rather than 2
- No Liliana the Last Hope

I have previously been very anti-Ritual, then I came around to thinking that Ritual is good, and now there is this 5-0 list with no Ritual, but 4 Sinkhole
I initially didn't think Ritual made sense because it was such a poor topdeck for an attrition strategy.
When I started liking ritual was when I started to feel that you had to play Smallpox early in some games to disrupt the opponent, which made it too difficult to cast your 3-mana planeswalkers, so the way to win games was by Ritualing out a walker on turn 1 and then Smallpoxing behind it.
Playing Sinkhole instead of Ritual might provide this necessary disruption on turn 2 while not delaying your ability to reach 3 mana and being a better topdeck in the mid/late-game

I think 0 Last Hope makes sense in a deck with no Ritual, although it still seems like a decent SB option. I guess he preferred Bob in this role instead
1 Ratchet Bomb maindeck is quite a nice idea
Mikokoro is cool too (I guess you use it when your opponent is hellbent in your own mainphase and then after you play whatever you draw off it you +1 Liliana)

[OmniStrata]

There was a pox 5-0 in the first league since the DRS unban



Osman Ozguney is a well-known MODO grinder, this is not just a list from some random guy
We see a lot of similarities between this list and Adachi Ryosuke latest list:
- 27 Lands with a similar selection (4 Factory 4 Waste 4 Urborg 1 Bog 1 Tabernacle 1 Maze)
- 4 Innocent Blood 4 Smallpox 4 Discard Spell (IOK instead of Thoughtseize)
- 1 Beseech 2 Cursed Scroll 1 Ensnaring Bridge
- Maindeck Nether Void but not Abyss or Chains

Interesting differences
- 2 Nether Spirits (zero Nether Spirit has always been the hardest thing for me to understand about the lists from AR, this card always seems so strong and he wasn't even playing any creatures in the first place. I guess it's better now that DRS doesn't exist and RUG might be more popular where it's very good at blocking Mongoose and Tarmogoyf)
- 4 Sinkhole, 0 Dark Ritual
- 4 Hymn rather than 2
- No Liliana the Last Hope

I have previously been very anti-Ritual, then I came around to thinking that Ritual is good, and now there is this 5-0 list with no Ritual, but 4 Sinkhole
I initially didn't think Ritual made sense because it was such a poor topdeck for an attrition strategy.
When I started liking ritual was when I started to feel that you had to play Smallpox early in some games to disrupt the opponent, which made it too difficult to cast your 3-mana planeswalkers, so the way to win games was by Ritualing out a walker on turn 1 and then Smallpoxing behind it.
Playing Sinkhole instead of Ritual might provide this necessary disruption on turn 2 while not delaying your ability to reach 3 mana and being a better topdeck in the mid/late-game

I think 0 Last Hope makes sense in a deck with no Ritual, although it still seems like a decent SB option. I guess he preferred Bob in this role instead
1 Ratchet Bomb maindeck is quite a nice idea
Mikokoro is cool too (I guess you use it when your opponent is hellbent in your own mainphase and then after you play whatever you draw off it you +1 Liliana)

Ooh... Need to give this one a test run, sans Tabernacle but Ifnir deadlands instead. I used to hate spell lands but woke up to the irony that they worked. Need to try something else as my Bloodghasts don't care that I die... :frown::frown: Lost more games than I'd like to the "can't block" mechanic. the Last Hope is too good to exclude imo. 3 Veil & 1 Zombie mistress it is! ^_^

[ronco]

Finally happened, I did my first legacy event ever!

Not sure if a 7 person LGS event qualifies as a tournament report, but here you go nonetheless. This is the ONLY store that does legacy in the greater KC area, if that tells you about the health of the format around here. After the advice presented on this threat (many thanks) settled on the below list. Turned out very similar to Hardcore's list.

the deck:

11 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 wasteland
3 polluted delta
2 bloodstained mire
4 pox
4 smallpox
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
4 innocent blood
4 liliana of the veil
4 bloodghast
4 shrieking affliction
3 gurmag angler
1 liliana, the last hope


Board:

2 extirpate
3 collective brutality
4 leyline of the void
3 bitterblossom
3 pithing needle


Surgical extractions are on the way, so no need to comment on that re my sideboard. Based on some of the combo I saw I would like to up that to 4 sugricals and drop the Collective brutality, maybe. I put in CoBru thinking i'd see burn and took out the lost legacy and should have left those in for a combo deck I ran into. But I avoided the burn player that was there so who knows.

Practice game while we waited for people to show up vs WG enchantress (with a karakas/Emrakul, the aeons torn and Rest in Peace/Helm of obedience finish plan).
Normal early trades. He'd land an argothian enchantress, draw a card or two, then I'd smallpox/innocent blood them away. He drops a suppression field and I forget to fetch in response, which slows down my Liliana of the veil until he can Oblivion ring one. Meanwhile bloodghast is doing it's thing, but the well starts to run dry and only deliver lands once I get hellbent. He drops a second suppression field to choke off almost anything else and wound up getting his karakas and Emrakul, the aeons torn in play to finish me off.

Then the business started. Round 1 vs Alex. Not sure what he is on ("something weird" per him). He mulls to 4 and keeps. I have no idea what that means but he must have kept a no lander (I didn't know). I see an opening 7 of fetchand + 6 business, so I mull and keep an urborg, tomb of yawgmoth and 5 business and scry a hymn to tourach to the bottom. I pull enough lands off the top so we are good. He draws for 2 or 3 turns, but eventually he goes land, wild growth, then argothian enchantress on the following turn. For some reason I had him on manaless dredge and didn't want to fill his yard so I held back. In hindsight that was a stupid idea, plus I could have cast my inquisition of kozilek and "chose" nothing if that was the case, so misplay there on my end but it didn't matter. Soon as that enchantress hit I smallpox her away and he conceded to move to game 2, since he mulled so deep and was so far behind anyway.
Game 2, started off with Inquisition of kozilek taking elephant grass (saw an argothian enchantress but knew I could take her out before any real advantage is had). She comes down his t2, but I smallpox her away again. T3 I hymn to tourach and get some stuff, then drop a shrieking affliction. Big pox weakens him and wrecks the board and hand, bloodghast finishes off. 2-0 games, 1-0 rounds.

Round 2, Scott on Amulet Bloom.
I watched him play a side game with the above gentleman after the first round, and tried to speed learn the amulet deck in the event I played against him later (I had never seen it before and obviously we got paired). I am on the play, and turn 1 Inquisition of Kozilek an amulet of Vigor away. Turn two hymn to tourach gets a summoner's pact and land, turn 3 smallpox followed by 4th turn gurmag angler and Liliana of the veil after that to seal it.
Game 2 I inquisition of kozilek something turn 1 but I can't read my notes, then he does some ancient stirring to find a land. I smallpox and he must have drawn one of those obstinate Baloth that comes in and nets him 4 life if I make him discard. He also summoner's pacts and Azusa, lost but seeking but doesn't have enough to cast. I innocent blood away the scary 4/4 and get a bloodghast out for some hits and a Liliana of the veil out for the Azusa, lost but seeking but he eventually finds a primeval titan with haste to get rid of Liliana of the veil and I can't get anything to get rid of it, then he does his combo off to put all the titans into play and give them all haste and trample and double strike if he wants.
Sideboard - out 1 Liliana, the last hope, 3 big pox. +2 pithing needle, + 2 extirpate (hoping to get him to discard a titan/pact and then get rid of it, needle was for Slayers' stronghold, not sure if that was a good move or if I was being too cute).

Game 3
T1 Inquisition of kozilek to get the Azusa, lost but seeking but I see he has that pesky obstinate Baloth and I have a hand of 2 hymn to tourachs and not much else. I get the pithing needle out for his Slayers' Stronghold. We pass back and forth a bit. I draw a smallpox and i think I can now hymn to tourach him and follow up with smallpox to get rid of the baloth, but i forgot the small detail that he had 2 other creatures out. so I screwed the pooch bad on that one, but he had drawn a second one and was down to 3 cards, so i was going to see one regardless. He gets his summoner's pact for the Ruric Thar, the Unbowed and All I can muster is a bloodghast and he ain't blocking shit, so lost that round. Made the misplay, but it wouldn't have mattered, I didn't have it that game.

I asked him after the match if I had made any misplays for learning purposes, and he said i had 2-3 turns where any pox effect or wasteland would have won it by putting him too far out of reach in the second game. So good to know that was a very winnable matchup.

1-1 rounds, 3-2 games.

Round 3 vs Steven on what I would describe as a midrange timmy stompy deck.
I opened up game one with a triple (!!) hymn to tourach after a turn 1 inquisition of kozilek. Got a shrieking affliction in, then a bloodghast, then a gurmag angler. Never stood a chance.
Game 2 was just as filthy, with inquisition of kozilek, Hymn to tourach, smallpox, hymn to tourach again, then bloodghast, and Liliana of the veil to seal it. He only played land and a single mindslaver (?) both rounds I think. And a 4cc rampant growth type card once or twice but that was it. His deck was full of platinum angel, darksteel colossus type cards so he basically had little to do until he got his cloudposts out, which isn't a good plan vs pox.

Other decks there that i didn't play: burn, and a guy on at least BWU, with baleful strix and Deathrite shaman[/cards] (He didn't know they were banned so he replaced them with something from his board... no idea what the deck was though).
Did well enough to cut top 4 (out of 7....) being 2-1 and got 8.75 in store credit from my $5 buy in. Look out Vintage, here i come!

All in all, I think I played fairly well given that most decisions were straight forward. Not sure I sideboarded properly in round 2 (the only one I boarded anything). Surgicals are in the mail as we speak. Lost legacy probably would have shut down my round two opponent if I could get the pacts out. I can deal with 1 titan, I can't deal with 4. He had a few other creatures but nothing that would have comboed out I don't think.

Much thanks to the people on this thread for the help, sorry it was a week late, had to wait for more cards to come in before considering it finished.

Also, didn't miss the Mishra's factory, and the wastelands were fine this week. Saw main deck REst in peace in both enchantress decks, but nothing major in the way of outright grave hate, but no graveyard decks either. And feedback welcomed.

[Mr. Safety]

Finally happened, I did my first legacy event ever!

Not sure if a 7 person LGS event qualifies as a tournament report, but here you go nonetheless. This is the ONLY store that does legacy in the greater KC area, if that tells you about the health of the format around here. After the advice presented on this threat (many thanks) settled on the below list. Turned out very similar to Hardcore's list.

the deck:

11 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 wasteland
3 polluted delta
2 bloodstained mire
4 pox
4 smallpox
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
4 innocent blood
4 liliana of the veil
4 bloodghast
4 shrieking affliction
3 gurmag angler
1 liliana, the last hope


Board:

2 extirpate
3 collective brutality
4 leyline of the void
3 bitterblossom
3 pithing needle


Surgicals are on the way, so no need to comment on that re my sideboard. Based on some of the combo I saw I would like to up that to 4 sugricals and drop the cobru, maybe. I put in CoBru thinking i'd see burn and took out the lost legacy and should have left those in for a combo deck I ran into. But I avoided the burn player that was there so who knows.

Practice game while we waited for people to show up vs WG enchantress (with a karakas/Emrakul and RiP/Helm finish plan).
Normal early trades. He'd land an enchantress, draw a card or two, then I'd small pox/Iblood them away. He drops a suppression field and I forget to fetch in response, which slows down my lili's until he can O-ring one. Meanwhile ghast is doing it's thing, but the well starts to run dry and only deliver lands once I get hellbent. He drops a second suppression field to choke off almost anything else and wound up getting his karakas and Emrakul in play to finish me off.

Then the business started. Round 1 vs Alex. Not sure what he is on ("something weird" per him). He mulls to 4 and keeps. I have no idea what that means but he must have kept a no lander (I didn't know). I see an opening 7 of fetchand + 6 business, so I mull and keep a urborg and 5 business and scry a hymn to the bottom. I pull enough lands off the top so we are good. He draws for 2 or 3 turns, but eventually he goes land, wild growth, then enchantress on the following turn. For some reason I had him on manaless dredge and didn't want to fill his yard so I held back. In hindsight that was a stupid idea, plus I could have cast my inquisition and "chose" nothing if that was the case, so misplay there on my end but it didn't matter. Soon as that enchantress hit I small poxed her away and he conceded to move to game 2, since he mulled so deep and was so far behind anyway.
Game 2, started off with IOK taking elephant grass (saw an enchantress but knew I could take her out before any real advantage is had). She comes down his t2, but I small pox her away. T3 I hymn and get some stuff, then drop a shrieking affliction. Big pox weakens him and wrecks the board and hand, blood ghast finishes off. 2-0 games, 1-0 rounds.

Round 2, Scott on Amulet Bloom.
I watched him play a side game with the above gentleman after the first round, and tried to speed learn the amulet deck in the event I played against him later (I had never seen it before and obviously i got paired). I am on the play, and turn 1 IoK an amulet of Vigor away. Turn two hymn gets a summoner's pact and land, turn 3 smallpox followed by 4th turn gurmag angler and lili OTV after that to seal it.
Game 2 I iok something turn 1 but I can't read my notes, then he does some ancient stirring to find a land. I small pox and he must have drawn one of those Baloths that comes in and nets him 4 life if I make him discard. He also summoner's pacts and Azusa, but doesn't have enough to cast. I innocent blood away the scary 4/4 and get a ghast out for some hits and a LOTV out for the Azusa, but he eventually finds a primeval titan with haste to get rid of Lili, and I can't get anything to get rid of it, then he does his combo off to put all the titans into play and give them all haste and trample and double strike if he wants.
Sideboard - out 1 Lili, last hope, 3 big pox. +2 pithing needle, + 2 extirpate (hoping to get him to discard a titan/pact and then get rid of it, needle was for Slayer stronghold, not sure if that was a good move or if I was being too cute).

Game 3
T1 Iok to get the Azusa, but I see he has that pesky Baloth and I have a hand of 2 hymns and not much else. I get the needle out for his Slayer Stronghold. We pass back and forth a bit. I draw a small pox and i think I can now hymn him and follow up with small pox to get rid of the baloth, but i forgot the small detail that he had 2 other creatures out. so I screwed the pooch bad on that one, but he had drawn a second one and was down to 3 cards, so i was going to see one regardless. He gets his pact for the Ruric Thar and All I can muster is a blood ghast and he ain't blocking shit, so lost that round. Made the misplay, but it wouldn't have mattered, I didn't have it that game.

I asked him after the match if I had made any misplays for learning purposes, and he said i had 2-3 turns where any pox effect or wasteland would have won it by putting him too far out of reach in the second game. So good to know that was a very winnable matchup.

1-1 rounds, 3-2 games.

Round 3 vs Steven on what I would describe as a midrange timmy stompy deck.
I opened up game one with a triple (!!) hymn after a turn 1 IoK. Got an affliction in, then a ghast, then an angler. Never stood a chance.
Game 2 was just as filthy, with Iok, Hymn, small pox, hymn again, then ghast, and lili OTV to seal it. He only played land and a single mindslaver (?) both rounds I think. And a 4cc rampant growth type card once or twice but that was it. His deck was full of platinum angel, darksteel colosus type cards so he basically had little to do until he got his cloudposts out, which isn't a good plan vs pox.

Other decks there that i didn't play: burn, and a guy on at least BWU, with baleful strix and DRS (He didn't know they were banned so he replaced them with something from his board... no idea what the deck was though).
Did well enough to cut top 4 (out of 7....) being 2-1 and got 8.75 in store credit from my $5 buy in. Look out Vintage, here i come!

All in all, I think I played fairly well given that most decisions were straight forward. Not sure I sideboarded properly in round 2 (the only one I boarded anything). Surgicals are in the mail as we speak. Lost legacy probably would have shut down my round two opponent if I could get the pacts out. I can deal with 1 titan, I can't deal with 4. He had a few other creatures but nothing that would have comboed out I don't think.

Much thanks to the people on this thread for the help, sorry it was a week late, had to wait for more cards to come in before considering it finished.

Also, didn't miss the factories, and the wastelands were fine this week. Saw main deck RIP in both enchantress decks, but nothing major in the way of outright grave hate, but no graveyard decks either. And feedback welcomed.

Awesome! I think your quad-laser approach is very appropriate, given your lack of Legacy Pox experience. You'll get a strong feel for how the deck plays out, then you can start making decisions like 3 instead of 4 pox to work in a Ratchet Bomb (just an example) and other changes.

Ways to mitigate some issues with Pox given its nature:
1) Crucible of Worlds (recurs Wastelands, Factories. Wait, where are your Factories?!?!?)
2) Raven's Crime (makes top-decked lands less bad)
3) Sink big money into reserved list cards (Nether Void, the Abyss, Chains of Mephistopheles, Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale)

[ronco]

Awesome! I think your quad-laser approach is very appropriate, given your lack of Legacy Pox experience. You'll get a strong feel for how the deck plays out, then you can start making decisions like 3 instead of 4 pox to work in a Ratchet Bomb (just an example) and other changes.

Ways to mitigate some issues with Pox given its nature:
1) Crucible of Worlds (recurs Wastelands, Factories. Wait, where are your Factories?!?!?)
2) Raven's Crime (makes top-decked lands less bad)
3) Sink big money into reserved list cards (Nether Void, the Abyss, Chains of Mephistopheles, Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale)
Thanks!! I had a good time playing it.

1) From the testing I was able to do, Even with the urborgs I couldn't support 8 non black mana sources and reliably get my BB and BBB spells, so I decided to cut either the wasteland or factories. I don't have enough experience to make good decisions on my own yet, but I went with the factories. I am glad crucible got a reprint though, I have exactly 0.
2) That was in the small stack of cards I wanted to try and work in. Thought it was kind of a no-go with ghast. Had kind of the same thoughts with syphon life in the board for a burn matchup. I think if I take this a different route and go prison style (bridges, nether spirit instead of ghast, etc) then this becomes much stronger.
3) I'd like to do that eventually. I've got a long way to go on that, unfortunately, but I do have 1 chains. I played around with the budet version of these cards (trinisphere, torment of scarabs, etc and really liked it). Correctly or not, this is a deck I've liked since I've started (1997 ish) so I don't think sinking money in this will be a fleeting decision. Unlike my foray into 5c piles lol.

Also, in case it matters for pox posterity, the first person I played on enchantress was different from the person I played in the practice game before the tourney.

[Hardcore]

Thanks!! I had a good time playing it.

1) From the testing I was able to do, Even with the urborgs I couldn't support 8 non black mana sources and reliably get my BB and BBB spells, so I decided to cut either the wasteland or factories. I don't have enough experience to make good decisions on my own yet, but I went with the factories. I am glad crucible got a reprint though, I have exactly 0.
2) That was in the small stack of cards I wanted to try and work in. Thought it was kind of a no-go with ghast. Had kind of the same thoughts with syphon life in the board for a burn matchup. I think if I take this a different route and go prison style (bridges, nether spirit instead of ghast, etc) then this becomes much stronger.
3) I'd like to do that eventually. I've got a long way to go on that, unfortunately, but I do have 1 chains. I played around with the budet version of these cards (trinisphere, torment of scarabs, etc and really liked it). Correctly or not, this is a deck I've liked since I've started (1997 ish) so I don't think sinking money in this will be a fleeting decision. Unlike my foray into 5c piles lol.

Also, in case it matters for pox posterity, the first person I played on enchantress was different from the person I played in the practice game before the tourney.

You made a good judgement call with the factories. You already have 12 win conditions in the deck so you can do without them.. Mishra's are best when you run things like Nether Nether Void or Nevinyrral's Disk. And Crucible of course.

[Mr. Safety]

You made a good judgement call with the factories. You already have 12 win conditions in the deck so you can do without them.. Mishra's are best when you run things like Nether Nether Void or Nevinyrral's Disk. And Crucible of course.

It's also better with Crucible/Cursed Scroll, where you can use the colorless mana. I forget that Pox and Factory are awkward. You made the right call if you're committed to 4x Pox.

[Hardcore]

Currently playing on untap and have just played vs two dredgers. Leyline of the Void make it an auto win. My Nihiliths become slow but no matter.

Lands is as healthy as ever however, and saw I several at the local LGS. I therefore think i will go the blood sun route a while. Dark Depths is too good. Got to stop it or it is GG.
To the point: I think DD decks have become stronger after the ban.

[ParisFlorian]

Currently playing on untap and have just played vs two dredgers. Leyline of the Void make it an auto win. My Nihiliths become slow but no matter.

Lands is as healthy as ever however, and saw I several at the local LGS. I therefore think i will go the blood sun route a while. Dark Depths is too good. Got to stop it or it is GG.
To the point: I think DD decks have become stronger after the ban.

Against Dredge, I mull very aggressively to find one of my 3 Leylines (down to 3 cards if needed). When it hits the board, it is an auto concede for the opponent.

Concerning Depths decks : maybe it is time to put back in my MD Beseech package 1 Pithing needle and 1 Ensnaring bridge. Will that be enough ? not sure...
If there are too many Lands / Turbo Depths players post ban, I will simply play Mono Red Prison or RW D&T !

Florian

[Hardcore]

Anyone brewing Premodern Pox?

[naynay666]

Premodern: heard the words before but never though of it. Might be interesting.

Yesterday I stopped by an event that I couldn't make it to on time. Bummed I couldn't make it but: dayrate > mtg. 46 people attending a 2k at Top Deck Games in Jersey with a very diverse room. Reanimators, Miracles, 12Post, RUGs, Mono-Red, Sneaks, Elves, a dickton of SFM, most everything else remotely competent, and a fellow Poxer. He beat RUG Delver 2-0 and afterward we talked Pox.

He was on a no ritual, yes sinkhole, Crucible, 10 Swamps, 3 Urborgs, Wastelands + GQ, Probably Factories, a Bog, Maze, 2 Tabernacles, 2 Sol-Cities and 2 Smokestack list. Skimming through the deck there was some spice. To the Slaughter seems versatile and could probably hit Delirium pretty easily. The coolest part was the lone Haunting Echoes. It might seems expensive initially but becomes more effective the longer the game goes and is probably made stronger with Sinkholes and Wastelands. I won't try it out immediately but eventually. The other fun piece was a lone Skeletal Scrying. It seems like the most fun you can have eot with our deck.

Has anybody has any success with To the Slaughter, Haunting Echoes or Skeletal Scrying?

[Erdvermampfa]

I've played all three cards that you mentioned in a similiar deck and from my experience, the only one that is worth consideration is Scrying, but only as a 2 of at most. To the slaughter is too conditional and 3 mana edicts are simply bad in an environment where people create tokens (Pyromancer, Rabblemaster, Mentor etc.) or drop a big number of creatures. Haunting Echoes just doesn't do enough at 5 Mana and can sometimes even help your opponent by filtering all the useless crap (nonbasic lands!) from his deck in the lategame. Scrying is strong but the lifeloss can be inconvenient.

[Hardcore]

I tried To the Slaughter in the side against Dark Depths. It worked well for that but would have been better replaced by Diabolic Edict. The delirium was hard to get in my build.

[OmniStrata]

Blood Scrivener does Work! Subbed him for Bob from that OzmanOzguney list with 4 in the sideboard. Was planning to test Asylum Visitor, but her triggers effectively kill each other off, they don't stack. Zombie wizard yanked me cards and 2 cards with 2 on field for two life. Was tempted by the visitor due to the nice 3 power but losing extra draw triggers when stacking sux. I guess she only works in multi player games where multiple hell bent players can feed you...

[naynay666]

That’s pretty cool to hear but I have always wondered when seeing those lists- when do you bring in 4 bobs?

[OmniStrata]

That’s pretty cool to hear but I have always wondered when seeing those lists- when do you bring in 4 bobs?

Against slow decks that effectively get to turn 10. He is the true control killer. Bob would burn too much of my HP and wallet. Blood Scrivener is a combo with Liliana of the Veil and Cursed Scroll too! :laugh:

[kingtk3]

@Premodern: I've just built my first deck, GB Survival (like the rock but with deeds in the side) and planning to bring it next thursday to a tournament. I'll ask other players what do they think about Pox in premodern and let you know.
BTW, does anyone already has a list?

[Michael Keller]

Against Dredge, I mull very aggressively to find one of my 3 Leylines (down to 3 cards if needed). When it hits the board, it is an auto concede for the opponent.

How is Leyline of the Void an auto-concede for a Dredge player with a prepared sideboard? I think you're overestimating the card against LED Dredge, which, in the hands of an opponent with a properly-built sideboard can handle the card - in multiples, no less.

Also, if you're mulling to three, in all likelihood you won't have any turn-one interaction with a Dredge player, which buys them a few turns to find an answer or just play out threats from their hand.

[mkalevv]

Premodern: heard the words before but never though of it. Might be interesting.

Yesterday I stopped by an event that I couldn't make it to on time. Bummed I couldn't make it but: dayrate > mtg. 46 people attending a 2k at Top Deck Games in Jersey with a very diverse room. Reanimators, Miracles, 12Post, RUGs, Mono-Red, Sneaks, Elves, a dickton of SFM, most everything else remotely competent, and a fellow Poxer. He beat RUG Delver 2-0 and afterward we talked Pox.

He was on a no ritual, yes sinkhole, Crucible, 10 Swamps, 3 Urborgs, Wastelands + GQ, Probably Factories, a Bog, Maze, 2 Tabernacles, 2 Sol-Cities and 2 Smokestack list. Skimming through the deck there was some spice. To the Slaughter seems versatile and could probably hit Delirium pretty easily. The coolest part was the lone Haunting Echoes. It might seems expensive initially but becomes more effective the longer the game goes and is probably made stronger with Sinkholes and Wastelands. I won't try it out immediately but eventually. The other fun piece was a lone Skeletal Scrying. It seems like the most fun you can have eot with our deck.

Has anybody has any success with To the Slaughter, Haunting Echoes or Skeletal Scrying?

I stopped by as well (only a few minutes from my house) but unfortunately didn't have the opportunity to play. I would have been on G/B Loam Pox... I haven't settled on what to swap for DRS yet, tho...

Top Deck runs some pretty good tournaments and gets plenty of people to attend.

With regard to Skeletal Scrying, it's never been included in my list, but there was a point where I used to run sign in blood. I didn't always draw the cards --- the 2 points of life would sometimes be used as a bit of reach to finish the opponent. The card draw is definitely welcome considering we end up in top deck mode often and a late game hymn doesn't really do much...

[kombatkiwi]

How is Leyline of the Void an auto-concede for a Dredge player with a prepared sideboard? I think you're overestimating the card against LED Dredge, which, in the hands of an opponent with a properly-built sideboard can handle the card - in multiples, no less.

Also, if you're mulling to three, in all likelihood you won't have any turn-one interaction with a Dredge player, which buys them a few turns to find an answer or just play out threats from their hand.

a) The plan-A of pox is such an auto-lose strategy vs Dredge that Pox is incentivised to mulligan to a hate card more than other decks
b) Once you have mulliganed to like 5 without a hate card you are kind of priced into still mulliganing into it, because your chances of beating dredge playing pox with 5 in hand and no hate card are pretty abysmal
c) Dredge literally can't beat an in-play Leyline (Most decks aren't going to lose to hardcast 2-mana 1/1s, especially Pox)
d) Some dredge players don't even play anti-GYhate cards in the Feldman philosophy
e) The Pox deck has no clock even with 7 cards so the dredge player is always going to have 'time' regardless
f) I think you're overestimating the likelihood of a dredge player removing Leyline

Maybe the original statement was slightly hyperbolic but I don't think it's bad advice

[OmniStrata]

Vs. Dredge, it ultimately boils down to the dredge player's choice itself.

1. Manaless Dredge. Mulligan to nothing!! If Leyline lands, you win the game! Worth it! :laugh::laugh:
2. LED Dredge. This is where Surgical Extraction can begin to Shine over Leylines as it's 5c deck and us Nether Void runners take too long to establish a lock. Also the risk of a turn 1 death is higher in this version so Leylines with Surgical Extraction backup is a must.
3. LED-less Dredge. A long time ago on a kitchen table far far away, I had a budget pox build vs. my Magic Rival, Claymore-One. With a Leyline on the field, he simply hard casted his creatures from the hand. Flying Putrid Imps, Narcomebas, and Golgari Thugs en masse can and will kill you even with a Leyline in play.

Anyone here a fan of Relic of Progenitus?:cool:

[Mr. Safety]

Anyone here a fan of Relic of Progenitus?:cool:

I'd rather have Nihil Spellbomb. One-sided, cheaper effect if necessary. The benefit of Relic is drawing multiples, or at least getting far enough ahead early that it can just slow-drain the graveyard. In my experience, that works in modern, but not legacy. My go-to mix of grave hate ATM in almost all of my decks is a 2/2 split between Surgical/Spellbomb.

[naynay666]

Only 4 slots of graveyard hate? I envy that. The word graveyard is on over half of my sideboard. 4 Leylines 2/2 Extraction/Extirpate and I still roll over sometimes.

I was gonna go from 4/2 ley/Extraction to 2 Spellbomb and 3 extractions but then the banhammer hit.

[Mr. Safety]

Only 4 slots of graveyard hate? I envy that. The word graveyard is on over half of my sideboard. 4 Leylines 2/2 Extraction/Extirpate and I still roll over sometimes.

I was gonna go from 4/2 ley/Extraction to 2 Spellbomb and 3 extractions but then the banhammer hit.

Dredge isn't very popular, so I see it rarely. It's also important to realize that no matter what you do, some decks will just be favored, period. Rather than waste an inordinate amount of sideboard space on a matchup you will likely lose (if you don't get nuts lucky) is counterproductive. Shore up the matchups you can tip in your favor post-board and accept a few bad matchups. Dredge, even with dedicated hate at your disposal, will still beat you g1 and likely eke out g2 or g3 based on how they sideboard themselves, or you just don't draw it when you need it.

If I expected a fair amount of drege, I would invest in leylines...or play a different deck. I play Pox rarely in tournaments, only once that I recall that was outside of a FNM. It was to get back into the format at a low threshold point (I had the Wastelands/Urborgs/Lilianas) and to just get familiar with the format again. I think Pox is a secondary deck for many players. At my LGS I have at least four other people that occasionally play Pox. FOUR, in a community where FNM brings maybe 15 people on average and a 1K brings around 35-40. That's a higher metagame share than Pox normally covers. Dedicated Pox players have the big money cards like Nether Void and Tabernacle; they are few and far between. So take what I say about Pox with a grain of salt, I'm not invested like dedicated Pox players.

EDIT: My main deck is Nic Fit, which has the 2/2 split plus a Bojuka Bog sideboard, along with 2 Crop Rotations main, and a Scavenging Ooze I can GSZ up. Just to clarify why I only choose the 2/2 split of Extraction/Spellbomb.

[OmniStrata]

Sideboard skeleton:

5 counter agro
5 counter combo
5 counter control

the counter combo cards usually involve GY hate cause Dredge and Past in Flames and Snapcaster mages are a thing. Always 3/2 cause losing all your hate to an Extirpate-like effect is no fun.

[Hardcore]

If it was that easy...

[Hardcore]

A problem is that aggro, combo and control comes in too many shapes. Storm is what we think of as achetypical combo. You get your win by play spells, preferably instans (solidarity). Elves otoh combo with creatures (?!).
We are used to think of Miracles as the classic control deck. Counters and answers.
Been in existence since revised if not earlier.
Death and Taxes is also control. Creature based control(?!). Boarding in discard and enchantment hate is reasonable against t the former but not the later.

The examples list is quite long. Too long to write down, let alone remember. For me it is easier to think of specifik decks and try have answer to them, than to the think of the classical division in combo, control and Aggro.

So what is the solution? Well, the hidden flaw of the decks above is that when they borrow the tools to function from another of magic, they get an accompanying weakness.
Elves,, for example, is vulnerable to sweepers because, you know CREATURES.
So Engineered Plague is obviously good, but against Storm it doesn't do much. Darn.

[OmniStrata]

Wouldn't being prepared for the three archetypes have you prepared or each specific deck? Both Elves and D&T use the same SB hatred, Anti-swarm. Most combo decks like to use their yard. But we are Hymn to Tourach decks. The discard is dangerous already, but sometimes losing the opening die roll is enough...:frown:
Since decks cross each other over, wouldn't being prepared for everything be a good idea? :cool:

[OmniStrata]

Land (27)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Ifnir Deadlands
1 Dunes of the Dead
4 Mishra's Factory
10 Snow-covered Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

Creatures (2)
2 Nether Spirit

Enchantment (1)
1 Nether Void

Artifact (5)
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb

Planeswalker (4)
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Sorcery (21)
1 Beseech the Queen
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

Sideboard
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Defense Grid
4 Blood Scrivener
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning

Instead of the Tabernacle & Tomb of Urami Suite that was used in Osman's build, I'm going Ifnir Dunes of the Deadlands Crucible combo. Defense Grid seems stupid, I know. Being a mana denial pox, I figured if you can't get some Chains of Mephistopheles, at least slow up their instants. Formerly a slot for Uba Mask, but was too slow.

[Hardcore]

Eternal Atlas

2

Artifact
2, T: Draw a card. Activate this ability only if you control at least three lands with the same name.

[Mr. Safety]

Eternal Atlas

2

Artifact
2, T: Draw a card. Activate this ability only if you control at least three lands with the same name.

I was also looking at this:Arguel's Blood Fast. It's a little risky, but the likelihood of it flipping is pretty high if you are on big Pox. Sacrificing Bloodghasts for two life a turn after attacking seems good. The draw is a little pricey though. Likely not good enough, but interesting. I can see multiple Tombstalkers being good as well. In a pinch it can sacrifice a Factory for 3+ life.

[Hardcore]

All cards will be compared to the top, and be found wanting...

[OmniStrata]

Eternal Atlas

2

Artifact
2, T: Draw a card. Activate this ability only if you control at least three lands with the same name.

Damn. Too many non-basics with different names for me to consistently use :frown:. But yes, SDT was the be all/end all for card filtering. I tried and failed with Crystal Ball. Now if it was only 2 mana... I'd love it!!

[Erdvermampfa]

guys, do yourself a favor and try out Night's Whisper instead of this shitty card.

[ParisFlorian]

guys, do yourself a favor and try out Night's Whisper instead of this shitty card.

In most build (the non-aggro ones), Phyrexian Arena is even better I think.

[Erdvermampfa]

In most build (the non-aggro ones), Phyrexian Arena is even better I think.

It's not because 2 mana is a lot less than 3. Whisper also gives you the cards immediatly instead of over the course of several turns (which is also the problem this new artifact suffers from). Arena also is kind of problematic if you're not able to compensate the lifeloss. Arena is good as a "threat" other decks have to answer if your deck consists mostly of otherwise reactive cards (removal etc.) but has also got a lot of downsides that have made me questioning its playablity lately.

[fluuu]

Whats going on? I went with pox for my first time to 2 tournaments. I went just a simple 2-2

I already think the no ritual list is better. Thoughts?

[OmniStrata]

Whats going on? I went with pox for my first time to 2 tournaments. I went just a simple 2-2

I already think the no ritual list is better. Thoughts?

It depends on your meta. Do you really need the speed at the cost of cards? My local meta has no combo, so a Dark Ritual-less deck is fine. If you're in a hurry, consequences be damned, then a full set of DR is your flavor. With 2 3 cmc planeswalkers in Black it's a very good idea to sacrifice your late game consistency and top deck strength to be at turn 3 on your first turn and drop a turn 1 Liliana Veil/Last Hope. :laugh: Be wary of the force...

[Hardcore]

What to substitute the DR with? A Swamp obviously and then what?

[fluuu]

What to substitute the DR with? A Swamp obviously and then what?

I play the following list:

1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's factory
1 Spawning Pool
4 Urborg
1 bojuka bog
1 mikokoro, center of the sea
4 Wasteland
9 Swamp
1 Nether spirit
4 DR
1 Beseech the Q.
3 Hymn
4 Innocent blood
2 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
2 Thoughtseize
1 Nether void
1 Crucible
2 IoK
1 Phyrexian totem
2 Ensnaring bridge
4 LOV
1 Liliana the last hope
1 Cursed scroll

SB:
1 the abyss
4 Leyline of the void
2 Dark confidant
1 Pithing needle
1 chains of Mep.
1 Phyrexian obliterator
1 toxic deluge
2 bitterblossom
2 lost legacy

Thoughts of my list? If i cut DR I problably will add another swamp, 2 sinkholes and another hymn.

What do you guys think about Karn scion of urza?

Thanks for your answers

[Hardcore]

Karn was hot but seems to have fallen out of fashion super quick. Don't know why.

[fluuu]

Karn was hot but seems to have fallen out of fashion super quick. Don't know why.

ya.. and what would u change over my list?

[Hardcore]

ya.. and what would u change over my list?
One Nihilith perhaps, since you are short on threats. You can suspend it under nether void. A fourth Hymn and two swamps.

[OmniStrata]

Karn was hot but seems to have fallen out of fashion super quick. Don't know why.

He does too little too slowly. That and his loyalty abilities don't help the deck. There's a reason lots of the recent top Pox decks don't include hard draw spells/abilities. Hell, even the old winning Pox decks never ran them either. For 4 mana, we could throw 2 Hymns at your dome. I'm glad I never purchased Karn now. Had my doubts due to the original Pox commandments: damage, mana, disruption. Karn does none of the above. :laugh:

[aslidsiksoraksi]

ya.. and what would u change over my list?

as you are playing prison Pox not sure Nihilith is necessary, but it is a cool card and Fear is a sweet way to just clock them hard.

For my suggestions - I'd cut Totem and Nether Spirit for 2x Necropolis Fiend, 2 Innocent blood for 2 Fatal Push, and drop Crucible for a second Scroll

This gives you more closing power and more power over creatures.

Spirit is weak to the same things as Fiend (both only die to Swords, tho Spirit can be knocked out for a turn by other removal) but is way worse than Fiend on the table. Fiend doesn't have the same synergy with reciprocal discard, sure, but still has synergy in that discard fuels the yard for him. And fiend dominates the table brutally.

Totem ramps but you already have ritual. The creature mode is fine but it'll be your whole turn when you use it, and it's not only weak to Swords but also weak to any burn spell or even a flashed in snapcaster mage. Fiend is not weak to those and closes almost as fast without committing resources while also being harder to block, capable of blocking in his own right, and generally better from behind

Never been a huge fan of crucible, we have tons of late-game card already, and too often you draw it and it does nothing. Scroll is proactive and helps kill planeswalkers, which is important. This deck is all about recursive, permanent-based removal. I'd rather do repeated damage than repeated waste/mishra, miss land drops, etc. Not denying crucible is a powerhouse in the right situation, just that situation seems more rare than the scroll situation.

Push over blood is arguably better in general since you can choose the thing and won't get blown out by elves or Young Pyromancer/Mentor tokens. if you run Fiend it's better since you can cast it with Fiend in play.


TL;DR I love Necropolis Fiend in this deck :tongue: and fewer cute cards more removal and CA generating!

[fluuu]

as you are playing prison Pox not sure Nihilith is necessary, but it is a cool card and Fear is a sweet way to just clock them hard.

For my suggestions - I'd cut Totem and Nether Spirit for 2x Necropolis Fiend, 2 Innocent blood for 2 Fatal Push, and drop Crucible for a second Scroll

This gives you more closing power and more power over creatures.

Spirit is weak to the same things as Fiend (both only die to Swords, tho Spirit can be knocked out for a turn by other removal) but is way worse than Fiend on the table. Fiend doesn't have the same synergy with reciprocal discard, sure, but still has synergy in that discard fuels the yard for him. And fiend dominates the table brutally.

Totem ramps but you already have ritual. The creature mode is fine but it'll be your whole turn when you use it, and it's not only weak to Swords but also weak to any burn spell or even a flashed in snapcaster mage. Fiend is not weak to those and closes almost as fast without committing resources while also being harder to block, capable of blocking in his own right, and generally better from behind

Never been a huge fan of crucible, we have tons of late-game card already, and too often you draw it and it does nothing. Scroll is proactive and helps kill planeswalkers, which is important. This deck is all about recursive, permanent-based removal. I'd rather do repeated damage than repeated waste/mishra, miss land drops, etc. Not denying crucible is a powerhouse in the right situation, just that situation seems more rare than the scroll situation.

Push over blood is arguably better in general since you can choose the thing and won't get blown out by elves or Young Pyromancer/Mentor tokens. if you run Fiend it's better since you can cast it with Fiend in play.


TL;DR I love Necropolis Fiend in this deck :tongue: and fewer cute cards more removal and CA generating!

Mmm interesting. I am not sure about the demon, on the paper it doesnt seem really interesting but who knows... I should give it a try. Its it antisinergic with cabal pit by the way...

[Hardcore]

He does too little too slowly. That and his loyalty abilities don't help the deck. There's a reason lots of the recent top Pox decks don't include hard draw spells/abilities. Hell, even the old winning Pox decks never ran them either. For 4 mana, we could throw 2 Hymns at your dome. I'm glad I never purchased Karn now. Had my doubts due to the original Pox commandments: damage, mana, disruption. Karn does none of the above. :laugh:
Yeah, it was an expression of the desire to improve the decks. Been there, done that.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Trust me, Fiend is pure gas.

I'll give you two more reasons besides those cited above
1. In combat he kills virtually every other non-combo creature in legacy. Small exception for angler and goyf, where you have to block and use his ability, and I guess also can't kill a big enough death shadow, tho swinging for 4 in the air makes shadow kind of risky. Also races TNN in the air

2. What would you rather topdeck? Imagine you are ahead, Lili in play, opp with not a lot - do you want to land a big threat, give him 5 more draw steps, and further blank all creatures he draws, or do you want spirit/totem to present a slow clock or a fast one that stalls against any creature? Now imagine youre behind, opp with some dudes, you with lands and maybe a spell or two - do you want a 4/5 that kills any of his attackers and picks them off when they don't attack, instantly stabilizing you, or do you want a 2/2 that can block repeatedly? Or maybe a 5/5 that cant block?

Ok ok sorry I'll stop and admittedly he's a bit of a pet card. But I do think he's very strong, harder to answer (non-swords decks have to 2-1 themselves) and more aggressive. You're right about cabal pit tho :(

[Hardcore]

Trust me, Fiend is pure gas.

I'll give you two more reasons besides those cited above
1. In combat he kills virtually every other non-combo creature in legacy. Small exception for angler, where you have to block and use his ability, and I guess also can't kill a big enough death shadow, tho swinging for 4 in the air makes shadow kind of risky. Also races TNN in the air

2. What would you rather topdeck? Imagine you are ahead, Lili in play, opp with not a lot - do you want to land a big threat, give him 5 more draw steps, and further blank all creatures he draws, or do you want spirit/totem to present a slow clock or a fast one that stalls against any creature? Now imagine youre behind, opp with some dudes, you with lands and maybe a spell or two - do you want a 4/5 that kills any of his attackers and picks them off when they don't attack, instantly stabilizing you, or do you want a 2/2 that can block repeatedly? Or maybe a 5/5 that cant block?

Ok ok sorry I'll stop and admittedly he's a bit of a pet card. But I do think he's very strong, harder to answer and more aggressive. You're right about cabal pit tho :(

I could run him if for my doubt I could fuel both the Delve to cast, and the Delve to use his ability.

[fluuu]

I could run him if for my doubt I could fuel both the Delve to cast, and the Delve to use his ability.

Yes, thats a good point.

I dont think creatures are the problem, i am well prepared. I think i preffer another obliterator instead of this creature.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

I don't think he's good in a deck with 8 pox, that's for sure.

And the delve has not been too hard for me, only need 1-2 cards in yard to kill things. Many lists have run tombstalkers, he is one more with a utility ability instead of the 5th point of power

Obliterater is great too tho. And fiend is not perfect of course. Just I've had good experience with it so far.

[fluuu]

I don't think he's good in a deck with 8 pox, that's for sure.

And the delve has not been too hard for me, only need 1-2 cards in yard to kill things. Many lists have run tombstalkers, he is one more with a utility ability instead of the 5th point of power

Obliterater is great too tho. And fiend is not perfect of course. Just I've had good experience with it so far.

Yes, thank you for sharing ur experience, maybe i give it a try

[Mr. Safety]

I don't think he's good in a deck with 8 pox, that's for sure.

And the delve has not been too hard for me, only need 1-2 cards in yard to kill things. Many lists have run tombstalkers, he is one more with a utility ability instead of the 5th point of power

Obliterater is great too tho. And fiend is not perfect of course. Just I've had good experience with it so far.

I think if you're dedicated to 4x Smallpox and 4x Pox, anything besides Bloodghast, Nether Spirit, or Cursed Scroll is probably going to disappoint you. Once you commit to big Pox, it becomes a fairly fast clock anyways. A third of your life total is pretty good for one card, Scroll/Spirit/Ghast chip away and do the rest. If you resolve a 2nd Pox you should be in a very strong position to win.

I think anyone skeptical of not having enough cards in the grave to delve after casting Necropolis Fiend should test it. I have frequently had extra cards in my graveyard after casting Tombstalker. I almost always use as many lands as possible to cast it (just playing around Daze, if relevant) and leave cards in the graveyard anyways. A little practice should smooth out issues. On the topic of 'personal favorite cards', Bitterblossom was always stellar for me in Pox.

[fluuu]

I think if you're dedicated to 4x Smallpox and 4x Pox, anything besides Bloodghast, Nether Spirit, or Cursed Scroll is probably going to disappoint you. Once you commit to big Pox, it becomes a fairly fast clock anyways. A third of your life total is pretty good for one card, Scroll/Spirit/Ghast chip away and do the rest. If you resolve a 2nd Pox you should be in a very strong position to win.

I think anyone skeptical of not having enough cards in the grave to delve after casting Necropolis Fiend should test it. I have frequently had extra cards in my graveyard after casting Tombstalker. I almost always use as many lands as possible to cast it (just playing around Daze, if relevant) and leave cards in the graveyard anyways. A little practice should smooth out issues. On the topic of 'personal favorite cards', Bitterblossom was always stellar for me in Pox.


I allways play 2 biterblossom side. would u mind post your list?

Thank you

[Mr. Safety]

I haven't adjusted for the Deathrite/Probe ban yet, and I'm not even sure how to approach it. I've been playing other decks. If I were to build it now, this is roughly where I'd start testing:

3x Bloodghast
4x Bitterblossom
3x Thoughtseize
1x Cabal Therapy
4x Innocent Blood
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
2x Sinkhole
2x Collective Brutality
1x Pox
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Beseech the Queen
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Cabal Pit
1x Bojuka Bog
12x Swamp

Sideboard
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Surgical Extraction
4x Nihil Spellbomb
3x Engineered Plague
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Dismember
2x Open


No Dark Rituals, the format is about 1/2-1 turn slower now. It's better to curve out and big Pox is pretty awesome against the grindier control decks (Stoneblade, Miracles.) I don't want less than 26 lands, and I'd feel better at 27 but I want the Beseech package.

[ParisFlorian]

Until recently, I was very happy with my mana-denial build (4 Sinkhole, 2 Nether Void, 2 Chains...).
In this post ban meta, Sinkhole seems strong. But there are so many D&T around ! Aether Vial is an escape door for them, and it is hard to find answers (even if with 1 Ratchet bomb and 1 Pithing needle in the mainboard).
Should I move back to another Pox version ? Or just ajust my SB to D&T ?

[Mr. Safety]

Until recently, I was very happy with my mana-denial build (4 Sinkhole, 2 Nether Void, 2 Chains...).
In this post ban meta, Sinkhole seems strong. But there are so many D&T around ! Aether Vial is an escape door for them, and it is hard to find answers (even if with 1 Ratchet bomb and 1 Pithing needle in the mainboard).
Should I move back to another Pox version ? Or just ajust my SB to D&T ?

Dread of Night
Engineered Plague


Name 'humans' on Engineered Plague. I wouldn't register a list with less than 3x EP with Pox, and 4 seems correct. Landing the first will be game breaking, landing the 2nd is lights out. Your only real concerns are creatures that get equipped and Batterskull; make sure you have a plan to deal with those and you should have decent odds. Get in under them before a SoFI or Batterskull shows up. I find regardless of my deck choice, D&T is a difficult matchup to sideboard against. It has a lot of raw synergy and redundancy.

[Hardcore]

Until recently, I was very happy with my mana-denial build (4 Sinkhole, 2 Nether Void, 2 Chains...).
In this post ban meta, Sinkhole seems strong. But there are so many D&T around ! Aether Vial is an escape door for them, and it is hard to find answers (even if with 1 Ratchet bomb and 1 Pithing needle in the mainboard).
Should I move back to another Pox version ? Or just ajust my SB to D&T ?

Three needles mainboard is alright. Besides DnT they are an answer to all the planeswalkers we see nowadays.

[OmniStrata]

Until recently, I was very happy with my mana-denial build (4 Sinkhole, 2 Nether Void, 2 Chains...).
In this post ban meta, Sinkhole seems strong. But there are so many D&T around ! Aether Vial is an escape door for them, and it is hard to find answers (even if with 1 Ratchet bomb and 1 Pithing needle in the mainboard).
Should I move back to another Pox version ? Or just adjust my SB to D&T ?

Don't forget Night of Souls' Betrayal! But only if you don't run ghast or Bitterblossom. That's practically auto-scoop after sticking a Dread of Night. It's still a weenie deck. Extirpate their shit. They'll be top decking garbage for the rest of the game.:laugh::laugh:

[ParisFlorian]

Ok, thanks for the advice !
I will try to find some room for the extra Needle in the main (I already play Night of Soul Betrayal in the SB, along with The Abyss, and I really love it)

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Adachi Ryosuke was at EW Japan, and got a camera match in round 6 vs UB Shadow

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/298661819

his match starts at about 5hrs 42min

SPOILERS
- Mr. Safety was right about Beseech seeking lands, he uses it for Maze in g1
- g1 showcases phyrexian totem as a strong closer, esp against Shadow which has no burn
- bridge seems great in the matchup
- his deck looks beautiful
- he keeps it in a BLACK BREIFCASE

[Disciple of Vess]

Hey all, having a little trouble finishing games.
Any suggestions?

Cursed Scroll x2
Thoughtsieze x4
Dark Ritual x3
Innocent Blood x3
Smallpox x4
Bloodghast x4
Hymn to Tourach x4
Sinkhole x4
Bitter blossom x1
Toxic Deluge x1
Liliana of the Veil x4
Liliana the Last Hope x2

Mishra’s Factory x4
Urborg Tomb of Yogmoth x4
Wasteland x4
Maze of Ith x1
Bajuka Bog x1
Swamp x10

Tormod’s Crypt x3
Ensnaring Bridge x3
Ratchet Bomb x2
Pithing Needle x2
Engineered Plague x2
Surgical Extraction x2
Bontu’s Last Reckoning x1

[Hardcore]

Shrieking Affliction . Don't bother cutting anything, just add a copy.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Shrieking affliction can be good. Other options are phyrexian totem or necropolis fiend/tombstalker. Since you're on a bloodghast list, buried alive can also be a way to get a ton of pressure. Nicely paired with vengeful pharoah.

How are you liking 4x sinkhole?

[Mr. Safety]

Hey all, having a little trouble finishing games.
Any suggestions?

Cursed Scroll x2
Thoughtsieze x4
Dark Ritual x3
Innocent Blood x3
Smallpox x4
Bloodghast x4
Hymn to Tourach x4
Sinkhole x4
Bitter blossom x1
Toxic Deluge x1
Liliana of the Veil x4
Liliana the Last Hope x2

Mishra’s Factory x4
Urborg Tomb of Yogmoth x4
Wasteland x4
Maze of Ith x1
Bajuka Bog x1
Swamp x10

Tormod’s Crypt x3
Ensnaring Bridge x3
Ratchet Bomb x2
Pithing Needle x2
Engineered Plague x2
Surgical Extraction x2
Bontu’s Last Reckoning x1

Bloodghast and Bitterblossom without Cabal Therapy? You're killin' me dude...

Buried Alive gets you triple Bloodghast, which I think is probably the easiest way to quicken your clock. It doesn't require many slots. Collective Brutality is pure gas with Bloodhast, too.

I would do this:

-3 Dark Ritual
-1 Thoughtseize
-2 Sinkhole

+1 Buried Alive
+2 Cabal Therapy
+2 Collective Brutality
+1 Swamp

[Hardcore]

You forgot -Bojuka Bog.

I am not very happy with the suggestion of cutting Rituals. They are needed for turn one play of planeswalkers, or buried alive. Of course, one also need mana producing lands to cast those. This, however, is less likely as the entire mana base is shaky.

"Greed is good" does not apply to mana bases.

[kombatkiwi]

Recently Andrea Mengucci has made a pox video for CFB

List was
1 Bog
2 Maze
4 Factory
1 Tabernacle
1 Tomb of Urami
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg
9 Swamp
1 Snow Swamp

2 Scroll
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition
1 Ratchet Bomb
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn
1 Bitterblossom
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Crucible
1 Nether Spirit
4 Liliana
1 Beseech the Queen

SB
1 Duress
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Brutality
4 Leyline
2 Massacre
1 Karakas
2 Needle
1 Bomb

It's similar to the 5-0 List from about 2 month ago played by ozmanozguney
The differences are
-1 Spirit
-1 Nethervoid
-1 Mikokoro
+1 Crucible
+1 Bitterblossom
+1 Maze

SB
-1 Duress
-4 Bob
-1 Deluge
+1 Chains
+2 Massacre
+2 Brutality
+1 Karakas

2-0 Grixis Delver
1-2 Lejay Omnistrix
2-0 Infect
2-0 Grixis Control
0-2 Aggro Loam / Punishing Abzan

Notes:
Sinkhole seems like the worst card in the maindeck but is perfectly serviceable
The deck seems pretty light on black sources, I would consider cutting the 2nd maze for ifnir deadlands
Tabernacle and Bitterblossom are pretty good cards individually but it's an impressive nonbo combined
Scroll is so good

[Mr. Safety]

Pox won a GP trial at Richmond also:

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=19982&d=329612&f=LE

[Hardcore]

Tomb of Urami was pretty useless.

[fluuu]

I preffer toxic deluge over bontu's. The tapping land effect is worst than the life lose.

[kombatkiwi]

Pox won a GP trial at Richmond also:

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=19982&d=329612&f=LE

Interesting
So compared with the Mengucci List (for example)
-1 Maze
-1 Tomb of Urami
-1 Bitterblossom
-1 Crucible
-1 Innocent Blood
-1 Ensnaring Bridge
-1 R Bomb
-4 IOK
+4 Thoughtseize
+3 Ritual
+1 Bontus
+1 Chains
+1 Totem
+1 Nethervoid

Plus some SB changes
I'm pretty sure I would rather play Ensnaring Bridge main than Bontus Reckoning
I think 1 Crucible is probably enough
Still not sure how much I like Ritual/Totem/BB/Chains

Tomb of Urami was pretty good I thought? In the spot where he drew it, it was like "if I activate this I might win immediately or I might lose if my opponent has removal", which looks kind of bad, but that's a pretty huge upside to what is at worst a nonbasic swamp
I guess if you would rather a more conservative option you can play e.g. Spawning Pool over it

[Mr. Safety]

If Tomb is worth a slot, than Tombstalker is worth a slot. Yes it produces black mana, but that is a small thing. I would probably look to Phyrexian Totem before Tomb of Urami; same clock, less risk except against Lightning Bolts. I would probably even play something like Guardian Idol, Cradle of the Accursed, or Dread Statuary before Tomb of Urami. Slower, yes, but without the risk of all-in (if Crucible isn't online.)

[kombatkiwi]

If Tomb is worth a slot, than Tombstalker is worth a slot. Yes it produces black mana, but that is a small thing. I would probably look to Phyrexian Totem before Tomb of Urami; same clock, less risk except against Lightning Bolts. I would probably even play something like Guardian Idol, Cradle of the Accursed, or Dread Statuary before Tomb of Urami. Slower, yes, but without the risk of all-in (if Crucible isn't online.)

If you're in a situation where it's such a risk then you just don't activate it, and then it's basically no different to Ifnir Deadlands
Saying that 'Well if I would play Urami why not just play Tombstalker' is silly.
Besides putting creatures in your 60 making Nether Spirit worse, obviously having the ability to just be a land is worth a lot, otherwise why not cut Mishra's Factory for Carnophage?
None of the other cards you mention help make BB on turn 1-2.

Like assuming you never activate it in any fair matchup and you only ever use it vs a hellbent combo opponent, that still seems worth it just because the opportunity cost is so low

[Mr. Safety]

If you're in a situation where it's such a risk then you just don't activate it, and then it's basically no different to Ifnir Deadlands
Saying that 'Well if I would play Urami why not just play Tombstalker' is silly.
Besides putting creatures in your 60 making Nether Spirit worse, obviously having the ability to just be a land is worth a lot, otherwise why not cut Mishra's Factory for Carnophage?
None of the other cards you mention help make BB on turn 1-2.

Like assuming you never activate it in any fair matchup and you only ever use it vs a hellbent combo opponent, that still seems worth it just because the opportunity cost is so low

That's reasonable. I just figured the intent was to have a faster finisher, and if that's the case Tombstalker is also fairly low risk. Tomb of Urami is good in the situation you mentioned, but how often will that happen? The metagame has become overwhelmingly fair, which is good for Pox if the top deck is RUG Delver but bad if the top decks remain Miracles and Stoneblade.

[Hardcore]

Tomb of Urami is a kids threat: "so cool, and hopefully my opponent has no answers, or cannot exploit my suicide Armageddon."

The card requires spells played to clear the way for it. Other threats, like tombstalker, does not. Thus it cannot turn a game, only seal the win once the deck gets there.

[kombatkiwi]

The card requires spells played to clear the way for it. Other threats, like tombstalker, does not. Thus it cannot turn a game, only seal the win once the deck gets there.



The card requires spells played to clear the way for it.

Almost every single spell in the deck is disruption. You aren't beating Gurmag Angler with Cursed Scroll or Factory either, which is why the deck plays other spells to 'clear the way', and uses Factory and Scroll to 'seal the win once the deck gets there'. Urami is not unique in this regard.

AND you're still missing the point that Urami doesn't necessarily take the slot of a threat (like Tombstalker) because at any time you don't want to use Tombstalker, Tombstalker is a brick. Anytime you don't want to use Urami, it's a swamp.
If spawning pool came into play untapped it would be auto-include 2 copies minimum because at worst you can just cut swamps for it
You can think of Urami like this, but not so good in multiples (because of the pain from tapping it and because it's legendary)

[Mr. Safety]

Almost every single spell in the deck is disruption. You aren't beating Gurmag Angler with Cursed Scroll or Factory either, which is why the deck plays other spells to 'clear the way', and uses Factory and Scroll to 'seal the win once the deck gets there'. Urami is not unique in this regard.

AND you're still missing the point that Urami doesn't necessarily take the slot of a threat (like Tombstalker) because at any time you don't want to use Tombstalker, Tombstalker is a brick. Anytime you don't want to use Urami, it's a swamp.
If spawning pool came into play untapped it would be auto-include 2 copies minimum because at worst you can just cut swamps for it
You can think of Urami like this, but not so good in multiples (because of the pain from tapping it and because it's legendary)

I understand what you're saying, but there is almost never a time when you *don't* want that 1-of Tombstalker. One slot does not make or break this deck. Once Pox has established a depraved game state, it needs to finish the game. Tombstalker does that very quickly, without sacrificing your ability to play the game afterwards like Tomb of Urami. I'm not really disagreeing with you, I think your points for Tomb are valid, but I think the trap is to treat Tomb as a threat when in most games it will just be a land. Treat it accordingly.

[OmniStrata]

Urami works under protection and during mana starved game states. When your Swords to Plowshares costs 4 cmc under Nether Void and Sinkhole, Wasteland, Poxing is a thing, Urami causes scoops but yes, it's a tall order. Only 2 games Urami got the win for me. And both times Crucible was not available. Nether Void + Urami = fun. Current list doesn't run him though because risk/reward is bad on the whole.

[Mr. Safety]

Urami works under protection and during mana starved game states. When your Swords to Plowshares costs 4 cmc under Nether Void and Sinkhole, Wasteland, Poxing is a thing, Urami causes scoops but yes, it's a tall order. Only 2 games Urami got the win for me. And both times Crucible was not available. Nether Void + Urami = fun. Current list doesn't run him though because risk/reward is bad on the whole.

The real take-away: Nether Void wins games. Factory wins in that scenario as well. Maybe a little slower, but just as inevitable.

[Hardcore]

Also Smallpox decks are already very vulnerable to back to basics and blood moon.
Now with no DRSs those cards could become more popular. Among cards to cut for swamps, in that scenario, would be Urami for sure (he seems to be fringe thing anyway).

[OmniStrata]

The real take-away: Nether Void wins games. Factory wins in that scenario as well. Maybe a little slower, but just as inevitable.

If only Factories came with Shadow or flying as well. With Maze of Ith, they do get vigilance... sorta.

[Hardcore]

If only Factories came with Shadow or flying as well. With Maze of Ith, they do get vigilance... sorta.
Well, Crucible turn them into bloodghasts 😀, no haste but that landfall recursion is nice.

[mkalevv]

If you are on B/G ...

Assassin's Trophy (http://www.starcitygames.com/results?name=%22Assassin%27s+Trophy%22&namematch=BOOL&format=&s%5B5392%5D=5392&foil=all&display=1)

Preorder price is out of line but still, I'll have to pick up a 4-of I think

[LOLWut]

If you are on B/G ...

Assassin's Trophy (http://www.starcitygames.com/results?name=%22Assassin%27s+Trophy%22&namematch=BOOL&format=&s%5B5392%5D=5392&foil=all&display=1)

Preorder price is out of line but still, I'll have to pick up a 4-of I think

I don't play Pox, but don't you not want to give your opponent lands?

[mkalevv]

I don't play Pox, but don't you not want to give your opponent lands?

Many legacy decks play minimal to no basics. Even considering that, smallpox, wasteland, sinkhole, or even hymn get rid of lands.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Ok gang, I have to admit I have been a traitor to the Pox cause lately and have been jamming Miracles for the past few months. Was tired of losing to my own deck's variance with Pox. But I really miss Cursed Scroll (I know, of all the cards).

So I have been daydreaming of a sort of UB Pox build that can help solve our most basic problem - lack of card selection. We rule the creature world, choke all resources, but sometimes just flood, or they draw Jace off the top in the lategame... it's no fun. So here's a kind of draft list, if you feel it doesn't belong here just let me know

3 Lili of the Veil
3 Jace

2 Necropolis Fiend

4 Bstorm
4 Ponder
4 ThoughtSeize
3 Hymn
4 Smallpox
3 Innocent Blood/Fatal Push
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Cursed Scroll

4 Wasteland
2 Factory
2 Usea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
1 Tabernacle
2 Island
4 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Maze of Ith

I dunno really this is a super rough draft. Some thoughts:
- 8 Cantrips feels like the standard correct number.
- Necropolis Fiend is kind of a pet card, could be cut. Either I'll cut it or Cursed Scrolls, since both play a similar role as repeatable removal and a clock
- manabase - tried to hit 26 lands since land heavy is the way to go with Pox, but also wanted a decent number of basics so we can play a waste-proof kind of game if we want to. maybe the 3rd Urborg would be better than the 4th swamp though, since 3 swamps would be enough to have them on hand for fetches, maybe cut factories altogether for a more stable manabase... but with cantrips, maybe can afford to go down a few lands in general. Slightly worried about consistently hitting BB on turn 2 but also having U available
- overall, the deck has roughly the same amount of removal and discard as the monoblack builds I've run in the past (maybe 3-4 fewer removal spells, if we count Liliana and NoSB), most of the space is found by cutting a land, the beseech and it's accompanying 1ofs, and the dark rituals
- cards I want to find room for are spell pierce, flusterstorm, 4th liliana, 1st liliana last hope, maybe NoSB and/or Crucible, 3rd creature sweeper, some snapcasters, strix... list is long

No sideboard as yet, but I feel like having access to countermagic and card draw in the board would be quite helpful, and could see maybe 3 Clique. Counterbalance in the board would give us a tool against Lands and Storm that would correct otherwise painful matchups.

since any new deck has to answer the question - why play this over other control decks? my thinking is that with Smallpox and Wasteland, we can attack mana better than Miracles or Grixis, which should improve our Tempo matchups relative to them. Mostly though I'll admit that this is mostly aimed at improving on Pox and not at breaking the meta wide open or anything.

Anyway, like I said it's a pretty rough list. I only have 1 Usea right now but might try to cobble this thing together and take it for a spin. Will report back if I end up doing so. Any thoughts welcome!

[kombatkiwi]

Not a fan:
- Expecting to cast Jace in your Smallpox deck is not reasonable
- Control decks don't WANT to wasteland tempo opponents; it's playing into the gameplan that the tempo decks want to play
- By cutting disruption for cantrips you are reducing your opportunities to trade resources with the opponent on turn 1-2 which makes Liliana (the whole reason to play Pox in the first place) much worse

[Mr. Safety]

Ok gang, I have to admit I have been a traitor to the Pox cause lately and have been jamming Miracles for the past few months. Was tired of losing to my own deck's variance with Pox.

Sensei's Divining Top was literally the nuts in Pox. The variance factor is why a lot of players post on here about quad-laser lists to increase consistency or splash for green for Sylvan Library, Life from the Loam, etc. Splashing blue seems to be fine, there has been every other color splashed in pox. Here are my thoughts:

1)Search for Azcanta - this card doesn't need any investment beyond the first 2 mana to be incredible, similar to Bitterblossom in that regard. It lets you play Smallpox after playing it, no problem.

2)Recoil - in B/U you will still have a problem with permanents, so the natural place to look is bounce. Recoil can effectively answer anything you need to answer. It's a little expensive, but you're looking for a specific effect. The discard factor is really great. Curving Hymn into Recoil seems nasty. Sideboard card potentially, and maybe not good enough at all, but it fits the game plan nicely.

3)Talisman of Dominance/Sunken Ruins - a way to fix your double blue cost for Jace. Sunken Ruins seems to almost be necessary, and probably the best way to fix BB and UU mana problems. Talisman offers mana acceleration that allows you to continue playing the Smallpox game while not shorting your own mana for bombs like Jace. Just a single blue mana available for a Ponder/Brainstorm can help you pull ahead after Smallpox.

4)Baleful Strix - while not working with Smallpox very well, this is an incredible way to slow opponents down. Watching Reid Duke (a former Pox aficionado) play 4x Strix and 2x Jace in his Grixis control list at GP Richmond was a sight to behold. Every time he drew and played Strix it was pure gas, blocking, attacking, drawing cards. He also had KCommand, but that target was usually Snapcaster Mage. Either way, it was incredible. And that brings me to the last suggestion...

5)Snapcaster Mage - probably not correct here, mostly because it drives you closer and closer to Grixis Control, which is a better Snapcaster deck than anything with Smallpox. At that point you have to question why you aren't going full-force into the best control cards in these colors and you'd naturally arrive at Grixis Control.

So to sum up, I really think you could make a couple of small tweaks and really take full advantage of the blue splash:

-2 Necropolis Fiend (Jace is your win condition outside of Factory.)
-1 Ponder
+1 Search for Azcanta
+2 Talisman of Dominance

-1 Underground Sea
+1 Sunken Ruins (I honestly believe this would fix your mana better. You have plenty of basics to run a stable base without another fetchable dual. It conveniently allows you to avoid another $600-700 cost as well.)

I also would question the Maze of Ith (maindeck.) Yes it's incredible, and necessary, in mono-black because of limited options. You have blue with Jace now. Maybe a sideboard card? If so, I would straight up swap that with a 3rd Factory.

EDIT: You're probably good with 7 fetchlands as well if you put in Talisman of Dominance. That opens up another basic land or a 2nd Sunken Ruins.

[Mr. Safety]

Not a fan:
- Expecting to cast Jace in your Smallpox deck is not reasonable without mana fixing + acceleration
- Control decks don't WANT to wasteland tempo opponents; it's playing into the gameplan that the tempo decks want to play but it's still good at denying resources, which is what pox decks do, to set up a robust win condition with Jace + Factory protection
- By cutting disruption for cantrips you are reducing your opportunities to trade resources with the opponent on turn 1-2 which makes Liliana (the whole reason to play Pox in the first place) much worse

Fixed that for you, and I don't think playing cantrips is bad at all. It allows the deck to reliably land a t3 Liliana, which is still just fine. She wouldn't have a t1 Liliana without Dark Ritual anyways. Curving cantrips into removal, hymn, and Liliana t3 seems fine too. I think playing on a curve is just fine.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Not a fan:
- Expecting to cast Jace in your Smallpox deck is not reasonable
- Control decks don't WANT to wasteland tempo opponents; it's playing into the gameplan that the tempo decks want to play
- By cutting disruption for cantrips you are reducing your opportunities to trade resources with the opponent on turn 1-2 which makes Liliana (the whole reason to play Pox in the first place) much worse

Thanks for these points, helps to clarify my thinking.
- I agree that Jace is a bit ambitious, but most Pox decks do run a selection of 4cmc cards (eg NoSB, Nether Void); with cantrips to help find mana and/or the talismans Mr. Safety suggests it should be ok?
- I feel like we are not trying to tempo them out, that is true. But smallpox is great against Delver because it is chokes their land-light deck. If your gameplan is to run on 2 lands, and now you're running on 1... that is not pleasant. Pox runs wasteland and is a control deck
- I have tried not to cut too much disruption, rather cutting top end cards. It is shaved a bit, but not heavily so (most lists I see run 7ish discard and 4ish blood/push, I'm right about there)
- just in general about the cantrips. Since, as you point out, the deck runs a lot of early interaction, the cantrips would not be played as the sort of t1 ponder to find a land kind of thing you see out of Miracles/Delver. Rather, would be early non-cantrip interaction, and then on turn 3-4 when you need to land a permanent to lock it down, the cantrip would help find it or help find more disruption. That at least is how I'm thinking about it.

Thank you for the suggestions Mr. Safety. I like Search a lot, especially as it can also function as a land. Sunken Ruin is also an excellent suggestion, since double-colored mana is the real choke point in a lot of ways. I think you're right to cut Fiends. Factory over Maze might be right, more wincons and it taps for mana which is nice. Snapcaster seems good but when I reflected that nearly the whole deck is sorcery speed (exception of brainstorm and fatal push) it felt like it loses a lot of value in such a context.

With the list as you suggest it, I have essentially all the cards, so will probably try it out soon since why not.

Thanks as always for all input :)

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks for these points, helps to clarify my thinking.
- I agree that Jace is a bit ambitious, but most Pox decks do run a selection of 4cmc cards (eg NoSB, Nether Void); with cantrips to help find mana and/or the talismans Mr. Safety suggests it should be ok?
- I feel like we are not trying to tempo them out, that is true. But smallpox is great against Delver because it is chokes their land-light deck. If your gameplan is to run on 2 lands, and now you're running on 1... that is not pleasant. Pox runs wasteland and is a control deck
- I have tried not to cut too much disruption, rather cutting top end cards. It is shaved a bit, but not heavily so (most lists I see run 7ish discard and 4ish blood/push, I'm right about there)
- just in general about the cantrips. Since, as you point out, the deck runs a lot of early interaction, the cantrips would not be played as the sort of t1 ponder to find a land kind of thing you see out of Miracles/Delver. Rather, would be early non-cantrip interaction, and then on turn 3-4 when you need to land a permanent to lock it down, the cantrip would help find it or help find more disruption. That at least is how I'm thinking about it.

Thank you for the suggestions Mr. Safety. I like Search a lot, especially as it can also function as a land. Sunken Ruin is also an excellent suggestion, since double-colored mana is the real choke point in a lot of ways. I think you're right to cut Fiends. Factory over Maze might be right, more wincons and it taps for mana which is nice. Snapcaster seems good but when I reflected that nearly the whole deck is sorcery speed (exception of brainstorm and fatal push) it felt like it loses a lot of value in such a context.

With the list as you suggest it, I have essentially all the cards, so will probably try it out soon since why not.

Thanks as always for all input :)

It's actually a really intriguing idea. Top decking garbage after blowing your opponents plan up is so frustrating. Brainstorm, Ponder, Jace, and Search will all make sure you're still drawing gas and avoiding the top-deck nightmare that Pox runs into so often. Yes you're losing a land here and there from Smallpox or Wasteland activations, but all you need is U to filter into more lands and spells you can cast. What's really good is the fact that discard, Smallpox, Jace, and Mishra's Factory are all fantastic against the control decks of the format. I strongly suggest you Youtube GP Richmond and watch Reid Duke and Andrew Cuneo's matches. Those decks are monsters (Grixis Control/Miracles respectively) but both of them would have a hard time against Smallpox and Factories. The blue just lets you keep up with them. Landing a Jace after playing a pox plan? MURDER. You just keep disrupting and fateseal them to death. It's a fantastic win condition, one you can protect with discard, removal, and Factories. You could even play some counterspells in the sideboard (GOTCHA!) Think about how good Spell Pierce would be after a Wasteland and Smallpox?

Good luck with this, and post some results! I'm excited to see what it can do.

EDIT: If you don't want to play Talisman, I don't think 1-2x Chrome Mox would be bad. Probably 1x Chrome Mox is fine, it allows you to double up on t1 plays and fixes your mana if you have extra cantrips.

EDIT #2: I might squeeze in 1x Liliana, the Last Hope. Another win condition that is good against a ton of the format.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Alright, with Mr. Safety's encouragement, I ended up cobbling together something like a deck and taking it to the local tonight. What follows is a major wall of text, feel free to ignore my report/ramblings (if there's a way to spoiler stuff on this site, please let me know)

The list as I ran it:

3 Lili of the Veil
3 Jace of the Mind Sculpting
1 Lili of the Last Hope

3 IoK
1 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn
2 Innocent Blood
1 Fatal Push
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Smallpox
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

2 Cursed Scroll
1 Search for Azcanta

4 Swamp
3 Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
1 Usea
3 Urborg, Tomb of his holiness Yawgmoth, Lord of the Wastes, etc, etc.
2 Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Maze
1 Tabernacle

SB
3 Spell Pierce
1 Bridge
2 Bitterblossom
1 NoSB
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Brutality
3 Surgical
2 Pithing Needle

notes on the list - sadly I don't have 4 Polluted Delta, which would have been much nicer than 2. I also only have 1 Thoughtseize, having been on IoK all this time :wink:. I also only have one Usea, no Sunken Ruins, etc. So this is just what I had that seemed like it would be a good test of concept.

Report -

Round 1 - ANT
game 1 I take him to no cards. but Past in Flames doesn't need you to have cards. I casts Past in Flames off an LED, the flames tendril down my life total, causing me serious agony. game 2 I again take him to no cards, and surgical Infernal Tutors and Brainstorms while I'm at it. But Dark Petition is also a tutor, and Past in Flames returns from the near past to win another game. I start to consider that maybe Leyline > Surgical in this deck.
0-1 / 0-2

Round 2 - Tin Fins
game 1 He combos out fast. game 2 I lock him down and he scoops to LotV + Jace. game 3 is a repeat of game 1 except there's discard for my discard and silent gravestone for my surgical. Leyline again looks like it would have been nice.
0-2 / 1-4

Round 3 - Sneak and Show
game 1 I get him low on cards, he show & tells omniscience and cast a free sneak attack but he's out of juice and no payoff. Jace starts fatesealing him. I ult lili to try to get him to lose his omnisciences (in retrospect this was dumb since he'd never sac them and I can never make him do it). I'm one fateseal from killing him when he gets brainstorm into emrakul, and that's all she wrote. game 2 he counters 3 discard spells and casts sneak and show and I lose.
0-3 / 1-6

Round 4 - BUG Death's Shadow
This was just a friendly game since my original opponent decided to leave secretly so I'd be paired against him anyway. game 1 I kill his threats and Lili + Jace takes over. game 2 he stifles my fetches and I die. game 3 doesn't happen cuz it's late.
0-3-1 / 2-7

So yeah, not an amazing finish, but seeing as I was paired against 3 combo decks I'm not sure it's mega indicative of anything other than that Pox loses to those decks. Some various observations
- If Surgical had been Leyline it would have probably won me at least one of those combo games, and maybe matches. But then, surgical is better than Leyline against Sneak and Show, so maybe it's just pairings of the day
- the manabase was a little shaky, at least in the face of wasteland decks. being able to cantrip for lands was great and helped a lot, but having only island when you want black was not so amazing. I think having the full 4 deltas and at least 1 more sea would be a big help. Might go up to 4 Urborg as well, and maybe shave an island down to 2. had no trouble getting to 4 mana for Jace, but then I was not in smallpox-heavy matchups either.
- Jace was amazing (big surprise :cool:). Jace fatesealing against combo when you've messed with their hand felt at least as good as Liliana making them discard what they draw (probably better since it's also a clock and they won't get to draw and potentially cast the thing). Jace's unsummon also pairs well with LotV's discard.
- cantrips felt good, smoothing out mana issues and also helping find gas. Was just nice to have them and be better at digging, have more keepable hands, etc.
- Jace & Lili both do the same thing in the deck, as end-game final lock pieces, denying them good draws and controlling the board. Both together on the table feels unbeatable. That said, sometimes it also feels like overkill having them all. Might be able to go 2 Jace.
- would like to go to 4 factories, but it seems hard to fit in.
- didn't have too much of a problem with less disruption, was able to find hymns/Iok/etc often enough, and cantrips helped that as well

Anyway, I am not too disheartened as I feel that monoblack would not have done any better against those pairings, and the blue was more helpful than hurtful, in my opinion (though admittedly left me vulnerable to stifle). I am interested to play the deck again, hopefully in more fair matchups and maybe with some of the switches to the manabase, maybe fiddle with the numbers on some of the MD and give the SB more actual thought.

More big picture, I was contemplating how the deck would function as a control deck. There's already a UBx control deck in format, and it's centered around snapcasters and strixes and Kcommand. This deck would be a UB control deck focused on Smallpoxes and Lilis and Jaces. Strix + Snap are very good, but don't play well with Smallpox, unfortunately (not that we can't play them at all, just that they're not at their best here). So if we continue to center the deck on smallpox, it comes with some serious deck-building constraints in terms of how many creatures we can play. On the other hand, if we don't focus on smallpox, Lili gets worse and we really might as well go to play Grixis control. So the big question here is - how good is smallpox really, and how can we best abuse it so that it's better than snap + kcommand? Cantrips and Jace do seem to play well with the pox, since they help you recover from it better, and help to shut down the opponent after it's had its time to shine. But maybe some more graveyard-oriented synergies could be worth trying out as well (maybe Jace, Vryn's Prodigy to give your spells flashback). Anyway, just some thoughts. There probably is a UB Smallpox Control deck in here somewhere, but whether it's really as potent as Grixis... well I don't know

As always, happy to hear feedback, will report again if I end up trying it again

[Hardcore]

It's like the question : why play GB when you can play Dark Depths?

[Mr. Safety]

Some thoughts:

1) Surgical Extraction is the most commonly played grave hate card in the format currently. People are prepared to play around it. When your opponent is more prepared to deal with your strategy than you are with theirs, it's tough to make optimal decisions. It's not an indication of 'your deck is bad' so much is 'your deck isn't optimized.'

2) Shaky mana-bases have been the downfall of many home-brewed decks. Four deltas, cutting to 2 Islands, working in 1-2 Sunken Ruins, and having either Chrome Mox or Talisman of Dominance would have allowed you take over the Death's Shadow game. Stifle does nothing against Swamp + Sunken Ruins. Yes you're vulnerable to Wasteland, but you already decided to take that risk with a 2 color pox deck.

3) Your premise for the deck is sound against the more prevalent decks in the format (control variants and delver variants.) Pox has always been soft to uber-fast combo because the disruption is sorcery based. Losing the die roll is actually the downfall. I've always had trouble against ANT with Pox and Tin Fins is a gross, t1 deck. *shrug* You can't be good against everything. You just have to figure out what you want to be good against and plan accordingly. Blue is increasing consistency with cantrips and Search and then providing a robust win-condition that establishes inevitability (Jace).

4) I think 2 Islands is plenty, and maybe the full 8 cantrips is too many. Brainstorm is the easy 4, but maybe it's 4x Brainstorm, 2x Ponder 2x Search for Azcanta. Then your only other blue card is Jace or sideboard cards. Brainstorm allows you to play around other's discard, which is a huge upside that Brainstorm brings. If my math is correct, that opens up a slot for Talisman or Chrome Mox.

5) It might be too ambitious, but maybe Creeping Tar Pit is correct over some number of Factories. It's more mana intensive but also a faster clock, better at killing opposing PW's, and can attack through chumps. The mana fixing isn't irrelevant either.

I hope you don't give up after one outing. Deck looks really fun.

[Mr. Safety]

It's like the question : why play GB when you can play Dark Depths?

At one time in history, playing Depths in BG pox was the literal nuts. Have your cake, eat it too.

[streetMage]

...Anyway, I am not too disheartened as I feel that monoblack would not have done any better against those pairings, and the blue was more helpful than hurtful, in my opinion (though admittedly left me vulnerable to stifle). I am interested to play the deck again, hopefully in more fair matchups and maybe with some of the switches to the manabase, maybe fiddle with the numbers on some of the MD and give the SB more actual thought.I could see testing some number of Stifle and 1-2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver as another form of attrition/wincon... shes easier to cast than Jace and fits better in a Pox strategy imo.

[Hardcore]

I never get why Ashiok is a good card.

[Kaono]

I never get why Ashiok is a good card.

3-mana walker that starts at 3+2 loyalty so she's hard to kill. Generally good at attrition and grinding long games which is why Pox is an ok fit for her. She's never really found a true home but does some powerful stuff. LtLH is probably just better now though.

[Mr. Safety]

Or, you know, fucking JACE.

[amjw]

I'm looking to make this deck alongside Lands. I already have the Tabernacle. How ideal/important is The Abyss, Nether Void and Chains of Mephistopheles in this deck? I have most of the other cards to make it but don't really want to splash out much more and all those cards are also expensive.

[kombatkiwi]

I'm looking to make this deck alongside Lands. I already have the Tabernacle. How ideal/important is The Abyss, Nether Void and Chains of Mephistopheles in this deck? I have most of the other cards to make it but don't really want to splash out much more and all those cards are also expensive.

Abyss is least important, arguably unplayable

Nether Void seems to be more useful/successful but I'm personally not a fan

Chains can be a decent SB card in 1-2 copies but not totally essential

I think the Tabernacle is probably the most important so it's good you have that

[amjw]

Abyss is least important, arguably unplayable

Nether Void seems to be more useful/successful but I'm personally not a fan

Chains can be a decent SB card in 1-2 copies but not totally essential

I think the Tabernacle is probably the most important so it's good you have that

I got the impression that they were in the lists as being optimum but not as essential as tabernacle (even though there are good lists without tabernacle). Still need to finish the deck and will do that when I come back from my travels. Pox looks like a fun deck to play with though.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Thanks all, I will probably try the deck again. Not sure I'll be getting the Deltas just to try this out more, but will work on the manabase a little more, fiddle with numbers. Will report back. Creeping Tar Pit is a good idea. Just wish it wasn't $15 or something. Not sure about Ashiok as all she does is mill when she lands. Playing their stuff is cool but I'd rather have Lili or Jace I think. Stifle would definitely be interesting as a more versatile Sinkhole. Maybe I'll slot a couple of those in, see what happens.

@amjw
Opinions differ but none of those cards are really required. I bought them when they are $300-400 and at this point I play Void in the sideboard and 1x Chains in the main. Now that the prices have shot through the roof for both of them I don't think they're worth it. You see them float around as 1-ofs, often in sideboards. Adachi Ryosuke runs 2x Void in the MD pretty consistently. But not having them won't cost you many games, and definitely not if you go more aggro with ghasts like the Clayton Levi lists (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19883&d=328520&f=LE).

[AnvilOfCrom]

So i played this to a 6-3 finish at the MCM Series Paris.

1 Bojuka Bog
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
12 Swamp

4 Bloodghast
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Smallpox
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
2 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Dark Ritual
1 Buried Alive
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Scroll Rack
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the last hope

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Plague
2 Dread of Night
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Lost Legacy
2 Pithing Needle
1 Marsh Casualties

Matchups were:
2-1 UR Delver
2-0 Elves
1-2 RB Reanimator
1-2 DnT
1-2 Burn
2-1 Blue Painter
2-1 Grixis Deaths Shadow
2-1 Grixis Painter
2-1 UB Deaths Shadow

I should have definitely played some Ratched Bombs in my 75 :rolleyes:

[Hardcore]

Would not have helped against Reanimator and burn.

[AnvilOfCrom]

Would not have helped against Reanimator and burn.

No, but Pithing Needles all day were really annoying.

[Hardcore]

You seem to have done well despite that, suggesting an answer to needle is not necessary. If it ain't broken don't fix it.

[mkalevv]

G/B Loam Pox.

How many Assassin's Trophy are you running? Main/board split?

My current removal suite (main deck) involves:

1x Pernicious Deed
1x Golgari Charm
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Diabolic Edict


I'm thinking to drop my Maelstrom Pulse and an Abrupt Decay, and run a 3-1 split - keep 1 Abrupt Decay in the MD and 2 Sideboard to swap out for Death and Taxes or Miracles. I currently have Dread of Night in the side for DnT. I'll find something to cut to make room for the additional card.

[AnvilOfCrom]

@mkalevv
How is your G/B list looking? With the release of Assassins Trophy i really wanna try the Green Black Version

[fluuu]

is There any Discord Chanel?

[aslidsiksoraksi]

is There any Discord Chanel?

yes
https://discord.gg/MtqhYh
enjoy!

[Hardcore]

yes
https://discord.gg/MtqhYh
enjoy!
Thanks!

[TravisParsley339]

Pox won a GP trial at Richmond also:

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=19982&d=329612&f=LE

Thanks for the shoutout.
I have since included 1 Tomb of Urami and believe it to work quite well, especially with Rituals.
My current build has now increased to 2 Totems, and 3 Bontu’s.
I have recently added two inquisitions which run along side 4 thoughtseizes, and 1 lilly last hope mainboard.
My local matches are a bit more successful with this build. I have a two star event this weekend. We will see how it does.

[Kaono]

3-1 at weeklies last night -- likely 4-0 if I stopped keeping 1-land hands on the draw.

2 Cursed Scroll
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Fatal Push
3 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
1 Beseech the Queen

8 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
4 Dark Confidant
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Bitterblossom
4 Surgical Extraction

Beat Elves 2-0, Grixis Delver 2-1, Mono-B Reanimator 2-0; lost to UWR Stoneblade 1-2.

Been really enjoying this list online and have had decent success. Debated a long time on turning it into G/B Loam Pox for Trophy -- ultimately I think I like straight mono-black best and don't think I would change anything.

No rituals because the format is slower and I want to grind out wins via CA and resource denial. 6 planeswalkers for that same reason, also helps end the game when things grind to a halt. A few fetches to fuel fatal push and help thin when Crucible is out.

I can't ever see cutting Confidant from the sideboard since he's so good both vs long grindy games and vs combo since our topdecks can be really bad. I prefer Surgical over Leyline both for Confidant reasons and because you can lean on discard to buy time until you draw Surgical but not the other way around. I also bring in a few surgicals vs things like delver to cut them off of a dual land after I wasteland them. Was a fun strategy when RUG delver was everywhere.

The one match I lost was after about 10 turns of drawing nothing and then losing to a topdecked JTMS. I think Plaguecrafter is really cool and is a versatile way to handle opposing planeswalkers while not being dead vs other matchups -- maybe like 1-2 in the sideboard?

Tangentially when's the last time a pure mono-b pox list played Dark Depths + Hexmage mainboard?

[Hardcore]

Good job! If you could write up your games too that would be nice.

[Kaono]

Good job! If you could write up your games too that would be nice.

Sure, I don't take notes at weekly but will do my best to recollect:

Elves: g1 I was on the play and t1 inquisition taking GSZ. He has 1 forest and casts birchlore ranger I think. I smallpox him and he doesn't draw another land soon enough. G2 he leads quirion ranger and I thoughtseize take a 1 drop leaving him with sylvan library. He plays it and then I play Chains of Meph. I get a Cursed Scroll out and kill everything he plays.

In: bridge, bomb, 2x chains -- out: karn, beseech, 2x sinkhole

UWR Stoneblade: I keep a 1 lander on the draw and never find a 2nd black source so scoop it up. G2 I hymn him a few times and smallpox away a TNN before winning with 3 factories. G3 I lead discard into sinkhole island wasteland tundra leaving him with only plains. I play a chains next turn. He rebuilds his lands as I draw land and plays some stuff like SFM etc that I answer with innocent blood and discard. I draw more useless stuff and he eventually plays a jace and fateseals me to death.

in: needle, bomb, 2x chains -- out: tabernacle, karn, beseech, crucible (pretty sure this sb strat is wrong)

Mono-B Reanimator: g1 he's kind of slow out the gates so I use discard to buy a ton of time and I think I kill him with factory. g2 he powers our a t1 packrat + create a rat and I smallpox one away. He doesn't have cards in hand or land (I think he mulliganed to) so just hits me for 1 for a while. I play a bridge. He reanimates a Grave Titan but can't attack. Tabernacle keeps his lands locked down. I play and eventually Ult a lily further constricting his mana. Eventually I find a wincon and he concedes.

in: bridge, needle, 4 confidant, 2 chains, 4 surgical -- out: crucible, 2 scroll, bomb, push, cabal pit, karn, lili last hope, 4 sinkhole

Grixis Delver: I keep a 1 lander on the draw and again die before finding any relevant action. g2 I mull, inquisition him and take ponder, he thoughtseizes and takes innocent blood and I'm left with only land. We exchange a few resources and then he cast a bitterblossom when I only had two urborgs in hand and a 3rd in play. I rip a lili last hope off the top, but he pithing needles it. I'm hitting him with mishra's factory so his life is getting kind of low. I use fatal push and cabal pit to kill faeries and then draw ratchet bomb to clear the way for lethal. g3 was very one sided and I use discard/wasteland/pox to destroy his board while assembling lotv/karn/lili last hope and bridge. He scoops it up.

in: bridge, bomb, 2 chains -- out: 4 sinkhole

[Hardcore]

Awesome! I notice you boarded out karn and sinkhole a lot. Is this a sign they are less viable nowadays?

[Kaono]

Awesome! I notice you boarded out karn and sinkhole a lot. Is this a sign they are less viable nowadays?

As long as the best decks are Miracles and Grixis Control I'll be keeping them in. Just so happened I faced faster decks this week.

I do think Sinkhole is borderline and I cut it completely in Grixis Delver days (I guess those were more DRS days). I play it primarily for nostalgia reasons it just so happens to not be completely terrible in the current meta.

Karn is of a similar story. If the meta shifts away from control he's a flex spot that can easily be changed.

[naynay666]

Sure, I don't take notes at weekly but will do my best to recollect:

Thanks for the writeup.

Karn is great 85% (an arbitrary and made up %) of the time so I will keep jamming him. Against anything too fast he comes out.

I've never tried Bob in Pox. Probably because I don't own him anymore. I do remember Reid Duke jamming them in a few videos a little while ago. Good for Combo and Control you say? I may have to start scooping some up.

The Sinkhole + Surgical plan against RUG Delver and other greedy manabases was at one point the most fun I was having at my weeklies.

Plaguecrafter seems like he would see a lot of Jace's bff Snapcaster Mage. In my mind I compare it to Hero's Downfall or To the Slaughter- both of which see little to very little play.

[naynay666]

I finally got to go to my weekly this week.

0-2 Burn
2-0 NO Rug
2-0 UB Shadow
2-1 Ad Nauseam

Burn

I didn’t stand a chance. I ripped the hand and killed some creatures but lost to inevitability. Game 2 I hit Nether Void at 5 life while my opponent had 5 lands. Died.

Natural Order Rug

Noble H, Innocent Blood. Goyf, Innocent Blood. Next Goyf gets Mazed for a while and then I stick a Smallpox. Fast forward Truename names Nathan and hits once or twice. Eventual Liliana downticks and eats a Bolt. Stuck a Scroll early and missed a ridiculous amount of activations with a 50% chance.
Totem and Bitterblossom finish him off.

Next game I tried to jam a t1 Lily but the Ritual gets Dazed. He gets off to a rough start and I am able to kill a slow stream of creatures. He counters the previously mentioned Lily but I topdeck another and she sticks. He flashes in a Clique to surprise block a Totem but Maze of Ith helps out my team. I kill it and he can’t beat it from where he is and scoops to a Totem and a Hellbent Scroll.

UB Shadow

Starts the Suicide quickly and sticks a Delver. Counters my first killspell, flips/swings, succumbs to the next killspell. Eventually gets low enough to stick 2 Death Shadows that I quickly kill the next turn. Totem and Scroll wrap it up.

Game 2 he keeps a 1 lander with a lot of cantrips but no threats. Turn 2 Chains and he turn 3’s a Ratchet Bomb. I played a Totem for pressure and as a distraction but he kept the Bomb at 2. To protect the Chains I dropped a Liliana which made him go to 3 counters. Next turn I swing and he pops. When I pass the only thing he can do (in the face of Chains) is Thoughtseize which gets the copy of Totem I was holding onto. He topdecks threats while I topdeck answers before finding a Scroll and a Factory.

Ad Nauseam

I had an opener sculpted to wreck any creature deck but alas that is not what he is on. Thoughseize snags a redundant Brainstorm after he Brainstorms in response. A few useless draws later I cut him off when the storm count rapidly climbs.

Game 2 turn 2 & 3 Hymn, turn 4 Nether Void, scoop.

Game 3 turn 0 Leyline before my turn 1 IOK gets Brainstormed so I took a Ritual instead of the hidden LED and Infernal Tutor. Turn 2 Ritual into Nether Void seals the deal.

3-1

The List
3x Dark Ritual
1x Fatal Push
4x Innocent Blood
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
1x Toxic Deluge
4x Liliana of the Veil
2x Karn, Scion of Urza
1x Bitterblossom
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Nether Void
2x Cursed Scroll
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Phyrexian Totem
1x Maze of Ith
4x Mishra's Factory
20x Swamp

SB
2x Pithing Needle
1x Extirpate
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Bontu's Last Reckoning
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x The Abyss
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal


I still am not crazy about Dark Ritual but it won me my final game so I guess I'm holding them a while longer. I still don't miss Wasteland & Urborg muddling up the manabase. People still play around Wasteland even when they don't see it game 1.

I would like to fit 2 copies of Ratchet Bomb in the 15, but space is tight.

[Hardcore]

Good job, guys!
Seems you don't have much problem with counters. I have, but I wonder if I should have cabal therapy in the main or sideboard.

[naynay666]

Sorry to flood the thread with another report but...


Saturday I played an EW Trial outside of Richmond, VA. Same list above but -1 Diabolic Edict +1 Ratchet Bomb.


Tes
Game 1 I lost the die roll and watched a Ponder. IOK snags an LED. Next turn’s Thoughtseize snagged another. Turn 4 I drop a Karn, upticked and was given a land before he cast Empty the Warrens making 6 dudes. Downtick for a Cursed Scroll and snagged a Goblin but I (not Karn luckily) got hit by 5 twice until I top decked Toxic Deluge. I paid 1 of my remaining 5 life to kill all the Goblins. Karn started farting out Karnstructs until lethal happened.

-2 Karns, 2 Smallpox, 2 Innocent Blood, Ensnaring Bridge, ???
4 Leylines, Surgical, Extirpate, Ratchet Bomb, Night of Souls’ Betrayal.

Game 2 Double Leyline with another IOK snagging another LED. I was at 19 life when my opponent made 10 Goblins. Killed one, took 9, Deluged the rest. Liliana, Cursed Scroll and Phyrexian Totem wrapped it up quick.
2-0
(1-0)

4c Loam
Game 1 I killed a steady stream of creatures but Garruk Relentless is a very difficult engine to keep up with.

-3 Dark Ritual, 4 Smallpox, Nether Void
+4 Leyline, Surgical, Extirpate, The Abyss, Diabolic Edict

Game 2 Double Leyline (what?) although it didn’t matter as I was outgrinded by a stream of removal and threats.
0-2
(1-1)

Turbo Depths
Game 1 he did the Depths combo thing you know how it went.

-2 Karns, Chains, Toxic Deluge, Fatal Push
+2 Pithing Needles, Surgical, Extirpate, Diabolic Edict

Game 2 I swarmed the board with Scroll, Liliana and Ensnaring Bridge. He Decayed the Liliana and the next turn came in with Duress. I Extirpated the Abrupt Decay in response and he scooped.

Game 3 My opponent went Urborg into Thoughtseize to start things off by taking a Bridge. Turn 2 he played Thespian Stage and the next turn he played Dark Depths. Eot of my following turn he cracked the combo. Still endstep I Dark Ritualed, Diabolic Edicted Marit and Surgicaled the Depths into concession.

The last game he brought in Rite of Consumption to go over Ensnaring Bridge but it didn’t happen.
2-1
(2-1)

Goblins
I kill 2 or 3 Goblins before sticking a Bridge and then run out of removal. He got wide enough for lethal and eventually found the Matron to find the Cratermaker to blow up the Bridge.

Game 2 had Aether Vials on 2-4. The first Ringleader flipped 2 Ringleaders and 2 Piledrivers. Eventually the same Cratermaker destroyed the same Bridge. Big swing for the win.

The two people who beat me didn’t lose to anybody else so my breakers were pretty sweet. I was 2-2 & 8th (outta 18?) before 5th round.
0-2
(2-2)

BR Reanimator
Game 1 turn 2 Griselbrand whatever who cares get that shit outta here.

Game 2 turn 0 Leyline turn 3 Phyrexian Totem gets Wore and Tore real quick. I stuck a Liliana and didn’t move her for 6-7 turns. It felt strange but she was waiting for an Iona that didn’t appear. I did however kill a Cryptbreaker over and over without it ever activating in an attempt to keep Liliana’s -2 live. My opponent got a Grizzy in play but by then Mishra’s Factory got in enough to prevent activation. Killed it and killed them.

-4 Hymns, 2 Karns, Fatal Push
+4 Leyline, Surgical, Extirpate, The Abyss

Game 3 turn 0 Leyline was Torn almost as fast. The hate hate is real. The Mishra beats started on turn 2 and the 2nd landed turn 3. I killed an unusually larger amount of Cryptbreakers and an occasional spicy boi to clear the way for Factories under an Ensnaring Bridge.
2-1
(3-2)

Top 8.
Crap. I am only in Richmond for the afternoon because I was going to a reunion show for a metal band down in Virginia Beach 100 miles away. Luckily they posted the time slots online and we knew what time we had to arrive by. It was harder to remember the Top 8 as detailed as I ended one match and immediately started the next.

UB Reanimator
Game 1 turn 2 Bitterblossom put in work while various edicts took care of any pressure. At one point I had to kill/force the Hapless Researcher to protect a Liliana and used an Innocent Blood instead of the Fatal Push but it didn’t come back to bite me the turn I was vulnerable. Push was pitched to the Princess eventually. Jin-Gitaxias drew my opponent 14 cards but I never had to discard to 0. Faeries kept constant pressure with a decent hand & Liliana to back them up.

-4 Hymns, 2 Karns, Fatal Push, Nether Void, Toxic Deluge,
+4 Leylines, Surgical, Extirpate, The Abyss, Diabolic Edict, Bontu’s

Game 2 Leyline + Mishra’s Factory followed by a Ensnaring Bridge. Things happened and were destroyed. Factory beats FTW.
2-0


Miracles
Game 1 my opponent sat down and told me he hadn’t lost a match yet. I opened with a Thoughtseize to strip Counterbalance from a hand of Bstorm, Ponder, Force, 2 lands and a Fetch. After that I am pretty sure Hymn got Forced before I stuck a Bitterblossom & a Cursed Scroll. Jaceface comes down & a bunch of Faeries got tucked with Terminus. Phyrexian Totem and a Factory showed up but so did Teferi and Snapcaster. Scroll picked off the Snapcaster and Bitterblossom got tucked by Teferi (and Fatesealed by Jace) with a few Faeries floating around. Killed Teferi before Jace hit 12. Holy hell. Untap and swing. Drop a Karn. Make Karnstructs. Swing some more. One gets Sworded. Jace dies. Karn gets Judged by the Council. Totem finished the game.

-3 Dark Rituals, Nether Void
+2 Pithing Needles, Surgical, Extirpate

Game 2 early Pithing Needle on Jace. Thoughtseize made it safe for Chains. My opponent dropped a Counterbalance that never actually countered anything. A few turns later Chains was Judged. I played another Needle but on Teferi. I played something else, but I can’t remember and it doesn’t matter because Snapcaster flashed in and Council’s Judgment flashbacked. I followed it up with Phyrexian Totem that ran over Snappy and then my opponent.
2-0

4c Loam
Game 1 turn 1 Liliana of the Veil feels good but doesn’t last long. Sylvan Library recovers the damage done by Liliana at the cost of 12 life. I somehow fight long enough for Factories to get in.

-3 Rituals, 4 Smallpox, Nether Void
+4 Leylines, Surgical, Extirpate, The Abyss, Diabolic Edict

Game 2 mulliganed and kept the decent 6 for the Leyline and oh crap I left Chains in. I Thoughtseized something, took a little damage, answered some creatures, and then the Liliana Wars happened. I played a Liliana he played a Liliana and killed my Liliana. I played another Liliana and he answered another Liliana. He stuck a threat and I stuck a Bridge. His Liliana Ult’d and gave me the choice between 7 Swamps and 3 permanents that were not advancing my board. Kept the Swamps and laid down The Abyss. He sacked one of his two threats and dropped a Garruk Relentless to answer my out. I lost somewhere after that.

-Chains, ??
+2 Liliana the Last Hope

Game 3 had a solid 7 but no hate. Thoughtseized a Bob & Innocent Blooded a Thalia before laying down a Last Hope to uptick. I eventually landed a Liliana of the Veil and at one point got them both to 6. He found the Grove + Punishing Fire combo and focused primarily on Last Hope but my opponent did not have a lot of red mana to keep them both under control. I found a Leyline and he responded with Pfire, got it back & Pfired again to take out Last Hope. I found 2 Factories and a Cursed Scroll to hold down any small creatures he played and apply pressure. Golgari Charm took out Leyline of the Void and I had to slow down the Factory beats in order to survive a Pfire. Some Wastelands came around to take out the Factories anyway. My Cursed Scroll was Vindicated but I drew into another. Liliana controlled the board while Cursed Scroll ended the game.
2-1

I won a Bye to Eternal Weekend Pittsburgh AND made it down to VB on time. Saturday was awesome.

[Hardcore]

:laugh:

"I played a Liliana he played a Liliana and killed my Liliana. played a Liliana he played a Liliana and killed my Liliana.

How did this happen?

[pettdan]

Also, TES is not very dependent on its graveyard, I believe. I would guess that Smallpox is more useful than Leyline. Also, Leyline shuts off your Surgical and Extirpate.

Pretty sweet that you won, thanks for the report!

[naynay666]

:laugh:

Liliana Liliana Liliana?

I believe my first Liliana was Decay'd and the next was taken out via combat.


Also, TES is not very dependent on its graveyard, I believe. I would guess that Smallpox is more useful than Leyline. Also, Leyline shuts off your Surgical and Extirpate.

Pretty sweet that you won, thanks for the report!

I have way more experience against Ant than Tes but I saw a Past in Flames the first game and panicked. And yeah that game drew into a dead Surgical.

[naynay666]

Alright Poxers,

How do we beat Grixis Control?

Strix into K Command into Jace into Snappy-Flashback-K Command get back a Snappy grind forever while Brainstorming the whole time is incredibly difficult to keep up with.

They have a greedy mana base with a few basics, but I no longer play Sinkhole/Wasteland.

Post board I have been bringing in Surgical/Extirpate and 2 Needles. It seems their graveyard is the crippling resource, but dedicated hate like Leyline feels bad. Is it? Cuts off Snappy and Gurmangler, but in no way stops the deck. Jace and Lil' Hope Ultimates still win games on their own.

Is it time to try To the Slaughter? Delirium looks pretty easy to turn on.

[Kaono]

Alright Poxers,

How do we beat Grixis Control?

Strix into K Command into Jace into Snappy-Flashback-K Command get back a Snappy grind forever while Brainstorming the whole time is incredibly difficult to keep up with.

They have a greedy mana base with a few basics, but I no longer play Sinkhole/Wasteland.

Post board I have been bringing in Surgical/Extirpate and 2 Needles. It seems their graveyard is the crippling resource, but dedicated hate like Leyline feels bad. Is it? Cuts off Snappy and Gurmangler, but in no way stops the deck. Jace and Lil' Hope Ultimates still win games on their own.

Is it time to try To the Slaughter? Delirium looks pretty easy to turn on.

Well, the only reason I'm playing Pox right now is because grixis / miracle control are popular and pox is pretty good vs them.

We don't care at all about Strix, Kcommand is only mildly annoying but rarely 2-for-1s us, all of their other removal is basically useless vs us, so that means we only have to worry about their planeswalkers.

I personally play 4 of both Sinkhole and Wasteland because of how popular control decks are lately. If your meta demands otherwise then maybe just do a split, but I think 4 wastelands is a must in any pox deck.

But ultimately Grixis is a deck where cards like Nether Void and Chains of Meph shine. I think Nether Void is too narrow so don't run it, but I never leave home without at least 2 Chains in my sideboard.

[fluuu]

Well, the only reason I'm playing Pox right now is because grixis / miracle control are popular and pox is pretty good vs them.

We don't care at all about Strix, Kcommand is only mildly annoying but rarely 2-for-1s us, all of their other removal is basically useless vs us, so that means we only have to worry about their planeswalkers.

I personally play 4 of both Sinkhole and Wasteland because of how popular control decks are lately. If your meta demands otherwise then maybe just do a split, but I think 4 wastelands is a must in any pox deck.

But ultimately Grixis is a deck where cards like Nether Void and Chains of Meph shine. I think Nether Void is too narrow so don't run it, but I never leave home without at least 2 Chains in my sideboard.

I should be a really bad player cause grixis players usually 2-for-1s me. I think this pairing is really difficult

[naynay666]

Well, the only reason I'm playing Pox right now is because grixis / miracle control are popular and pox is pretty good vs them.

We don't care at all about Strix, Kcommand is only mildly annoying but rarely 2-for-1s us, all of their other removal is basically useless vs us, so that means we only have to worry about their planeswalkers.

I personally play 4 of both Sinkhole and Wasteland because of how popular control decks are lately. If your meta demands otherwise then maybe just do a split, but I think 4 wastelands is a must in any pox deck.

But ultimately Grixis is a deck where cards like Nether Void and Chains of Meph shine. I think Nether Void is too narrow so don't run it, but I never leave home without at least 2 Chains in my sideboard.

KCommand is amazing at protecting Jace from us. It smashes Factories, Scrolls, Totems & Needles. It shocks Walkers, Factories, Totems, Tokens & us. Instant speed Discard is almost always live and when it isn't getting back Snappy or Strix is even more card advantage to keep up with.

In my experience the other removal is Fatal Push and Lightning Bolt. Push can take down a Factory and Bolt is never not relevant.

I have been jamming 20 Swamps, 4 Mishra's and a Maze for a while now and I love it. This has led to taking less mulligans and reliably casting BB cards. I haven't missed WL much beyond being annihilated by 12post. Sinkhole was gone before that and is missed even less.

I currently maindeck Nether Void and Chains, but am yet to draw Nether Void in any recent matchups. My lack of LD (beyond Smallpox) makes Nether Void a little worse but Snap+Ponder costing 9 sounds pretty good.

[Kaono]

My list is a page or two back. With 6 planeswalkers I've never had a problem vs Grixis. They give us infinite time to set up our gameplan and their only stack interaction is a 1-for-2. It's just one of those matches where there's no reason to walk into a 2-for-1. Walking a factory into a bolt/push should literally never happen outside of desperation mode.

Snapcaster Kcomm is 5 mana. I think you're missing sinkhole / wasteland more than you realize. Also I can't fathom a list playing maindeck nethervoid that's not playing wasteland. That sounds very wrong.

[Hardcore]

I tend to die to Gurmag Angler with counter back up. Not hard for control with cantrips to arrange. Leyline of the void is probably necessary for my build. I have needles in main, and chalice in sb.
Otoh Leyline and Engineered Plague would handle all its creatures. Or to put it another way;should focus be to handle the card draw, or the creatures?

[naynay666]

My list is a page or two back. With 6 planeswalkers I've never had a problem vs Grixis. They give us infinite time to set up our gameplan and their only stack interaction is a 1-for-2. It's just one of those matches where there's no reason to walk into a 2-for-1. Walking a factory into a bolt/push should literally never happen outside of desperation mode.

Snapcaster Kcomm is 5 mana. I think you're missing sinkhole / wasteland more than you realize. Also I can't fathom a list playing maindeck nethervoid that's not playing wasteland. That sounds very wrong.

My list is also on the last page and we have a lot of similarities, including 6 Walkers. My recent games against Grixis Control have all reliably dropped Jace turn 4. The only way I have to answer it outside of Thoughtseize/Hymn is my previously listed KCommandable threats. Thinking about it swapping from a 2/2 TS/IoK split to just a set of Thoughtseize feels like a good place to start. Perhaps going back to 5 cmc 1 discard spells is worth considering.

The MD Nether is for a better position against the combo I run into frequently. The aforementioned nonbo warrants relegating it to the sideboard but I'm not sure I will. I feel land destruction to be more of a stall tactic than anything else.

I am on the other hand a fan of Beseech the Queen. Being able to dig for a sideboard piece looks fun. My lack of Tabernacle keep me from trying it out but I probably will after Eternal Weekend.


I tend to die to Gurmag Angler with counter back up. Not hard for control with cantrips to arrange. Leyline of the void is probably necessary for my build. I have needles in main, and chalice in sb.
Otoh Leyline and Engineered Plague would handle all its creatures. Or to put it another way;should focus be to handle the card draw, or the creatures?

We've all lost that way to Gurmangler.

How many Needles main?

Kill the creatures!

[Hardcore]

My list is also on the last page and we have a lot of similarities, including 6 Walkers. My recent games against Grixis Control have all reliably dropped Jace turn 4. The only way I have to answer it outside of Thoughtseize/Hymn is my previously listed KCommandable threats. Thinking about it swapping from a 2/2 TS/IoK split to just a set of Thoughtseize feels like a good place to start. Perhaps going back to 5 cmc 1 discard spells is worth considering.

The MD Nether is for a better position against the combo I run into frequently. The aforementioned nonbo warrants relegating it to the sideboard but I'm not sure I will. I feel land destruction to be more of a stall tactic than anything else.

I am on the other hand a fan of Beseech the Queen. Being able to dig for a sideboard piece looks fun. My lack of Tabernacle keep me from trying it out but I probably will after Eternal Weekend.



We've all lost that way to Gurmangler.

How many Needles main?

Kill the creatures!

3-4 needles. With all the DnT, Goblins, miracles, 12post, jace etc. I feel four is worth it.

[ntropy]

Hey Friends. I've back-burnered Pox for the moment, I was frustrated by the variance of it. This weekend is a charity tournament that I have top 8'd with Pox in the past, and I would like to jam it this weekend despite it not feeling great. I'm trying to put together a B/G list with Living Wish and Loam. Has anyone been working on this type of list? I have something thrown together that I will be trying out tonight at the local, but I'm open to ideas and lists that other folks have tried out. Thanks!

[Mr. Safety]

Entomb is getting another reprint in Ultimate Masters, so it will get very affordable. I'm thinking of nabbing a set and trying to see what it can do for Pox. I have the Bayou to make Loam Pox work (which is increcible with Entomb) but even a toolbox of Bloodghast, Nether Spirit, and Raven's Crime can be very good. I've always thought the Jund Loam deck that Kennen Haas plays would be fun as well, but it's spastic as hell. The juicy targets of Punishing Fire, Life from the Loam, and Raven's Crime just seems so fun.

TL;DR - Entomb is a potential card for any version of Pox, and it should be around $7-8 once the dust settles. :smile:

[ntropy]

Yeah, that is def on my radar. I have Entombs. My current pile has Chalices to slam on T1 with Mox Diamonds, so I skipped the 1 CMC stuff, but Entomb to find Loam, land bullets, and graveyard win-cons is definitely an option.

[jredelstein]

Looking to downgrade my Foil JPN Pox cards if anyone is interested. Have lots of stuff not in my main deck. Message me if you are interest, I don't want to take up this thread with inquiries. (But I want to give this devoted bunch first dibs)

My current list. I have used Entomb as a 1-2 of, it is great for grabbing lots of stuff. Loam, Therapy, Bloodghast, Nether Spirit, Raven's Crime, Lands to Loam back, etc. I also really like Crop Rotation since rotate for Bog ups the graveyard hate.

I feel really strongly that this is a great list, you just need to know when to dredge and when to draw.

Maindeck (60)
3 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Crop Rotation
1 Entomb
1 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Raven's Crime
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Collective Brutality
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Barren Moor
4 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Crop Rotation
2 Extirpate
1 Innocent Blood
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Assassin's Trophy
1 Collective Brutality
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Glacial Chasm

[Mr. Safety]

Looking to downgrade my Foil JPN Pox cards if anyone is interested. Have lots of stuff not in my main deck. Message me if you are interest, I don't want to take up this thread with inquiries. (But I want to give this devoted bunch first dibs)

My current list. I have used Entomb as a 1-2 of, it is great for grabbing lots of stuff. Loam, Therapy, Bloodghast, Nether Spirit, Raven's Crime, Lands to Loam back, etc. I also really like Crop Rotation since rotate for Bog ups the graveyard hate.

I feel really strongly that this is a great list, you just need to know when to dredge and when to draw.

Maindeck (60)
3 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Crop Rotation
1 Entomb
1 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Raven's Crime
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Collective Brutality
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Barren Moor
4 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Crop Rotation
2 Extirpate
1 Innocent Blood
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Assassin's Trophy
1 Collective Brutality
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Glacial Chasm

Pretty cool list, but I can't help but suggest a few small changes: -1 Deed, -1 Bloodghast, +1 Maze of Ith, +1 Darkblast (another spicy entomb target). I also can't help but think that Lili Last Hope is probably a maindeck card for Pox decks, it's really good against the grindy blue control decks of the format, Death and Taxes, and Delver decks. Deed has always been a little bit of an enigma for me in Loam Pox; I almost never have mana to play and activate in time to matter. Toxic Deluge and Last Hope are probably better, IMHO. The one place where Deed shines is against Chalice decks.

[ntropy]

I feel really strongly that this is a great list, you just need to know when to dredge and when to draw.



I like the looks of that list. I may try it out. I've settled on a list for this weekend:
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smallpox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Living Wish
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sinkhole
3 Life from the Loam
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Wasteland
3 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Thespian's Stage
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Dark Depths
1 Cabal Pit
1 Barren Moor
1 Forest

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Liliana, The Last Hope

1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas

I 2-1'd with at at my local, beating Miracles, Death's Shadow, and losing to Grixis Reanimator. I tested a bit against Miracles, Grixis, D+T, and Sneak and Show. I'm a big fan of the Combo kill and the Loam engines. Losing Thoughtseize and Collective Brutality is a real cost vs combo decks, especially Sneak and Show, but it feels able to grind with all of the midrange and control decks. Wish me luck, and I'll let you know how it goes. Afterwards I'll probably try some spicy Entomb based version just to give it a shot.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

you may know this already ntropy, but there was recently a streamer who 5-0d with a list similar to the one you posted. Can find all his stuff here: https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/9wj4t3/cbr_mtg_went_50_with_gb_pox_this_week_deck_was/

Seems like a sick deck, Loam is a sweet card

[H4rbinger]

Have you tried to integrate Scroll Rack in the Loam Pox? I think it could be a nice option to increase the card quality and generate cardadvantage by dredging in grindy matches.

[jredelstein]

Have you tried to integrate Scroll Rack in the Loam Pox? I think it could be a nice option to increase the card quality and generate cardadvantage by dredging in grindy matches.

I have not, I played Sensei's Top while it was legal and it was awesome because we have so much control of the top of our deck.

Part of my philosophy has been the Pernicious Deed is amazing, so I don't play cards that I would lose to my own Deed. That is why I don't play Mirri's Guile or Sylvan Library. Same thought would apply to Scroll Rack, but if you are not playing Deed then it could be good.

[JackaBo]

I have not, I played Sensei's Top while it was legal and it was awesome because we have so much control of the top of our deck.

Part of my philosophy has been the Pernicious Deed is amazing, so I don't play cards that I would lose to my own Deed. That is why I don't play Mirri's Guile or Sylvan Library. Same thought would apply to Scroll Rack, but if you are not playing Deed then it could be good.

Sad to lose the moxes to deed. Sad to not play moxes with Loam.
Pardon, but isnt ravens crime the best card in this deck?
Scroll rack seems super good.

[Mr. Safety]

I have not, I played Sensei's Top while it was legal and it was awesome because we have so much control of the top of our deck.

Part of my philosophy has been the Pernicious Deed is amazing, so I don't play cards that I would lose to my own Deed. That is why I don't play Mirri's Guile or Sylvan Library. Same thought would apply to Scroll Rack, but if you are not playing Deed then it could be good.

I've always had trouble playing Deed in Loam Pox, for the exact reason you state. However, Guile/Library are *hands down* more important for the deck than Deed. Toxic Deluge is a much better answer at three mana. Without Top, Library is literally the 2nd best card to splash green for (after Loam.) Decay, Living Wish, and sideboard cards are also added in but Loam/Library make the deck tick.

[ntropy]

I've always had trouble playing Deed in Loam Pox, for the exact reason you state. However, Guile/Library are *hands down* more important for the deck than Deed. Toxic Deluge is a much better answer at three mana. Without Top, Library is literally the 2nd best card to splash green for (after Loam.) Decay, Living Wish, and sideboard cards are also added in but Loam/Library make the deck tick.

Absolutely. The second Library was my last cut. Deed kills my Moxes and my Chalices. I agree on the power of Raven's Crime, Scroll Rack, Crop Rotation, Entomb, etc. I'm prioritizing Chalice though, so no 1-drops. I actually really liked my 1-1-1 split of Decay, Pulse, Trophy. I cut the 3rd Sinkhole for a second Decay because I expect to see a lot of Chalice on 2 decks.

I had not seen that 5-0, I'll have to check it out.

[ntropy]

you may know this already ntropy, but there was recently a streamer who 5-0d with a list similar to the one you posted. Can find all his stuff here: https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/9wj4t3/cbr_mtg_went_50_with_gb_pox_this_week_deck_was/

Seems like a sick deck, Loam is a sweet card

This deck looks siick. I'm gonna run my list this weekend, but I will def try this out.

[ntropy]

I've settled on a list for this weekend:
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smallpox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Living Wish
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sinkhole
3 Life from the Loam
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Wasteland
3 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Thespian's Stage
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Dark Depths
1 Cabal Pit
1 Barren Moor
1 Forest

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Liliana, The Last Hope

1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas


Tournament was fun. I went a disappointing 3-4.
Burn 2-0
Manaless Dredge 0-2
Soldier Stompy 2-0
Grixis Reanimator 1-2
Belcher 2-1
Affinity(!) 1-2
Sneak and Show 1-2

I think the only change I will make is cutting the Liliana for a Bojuka Bog. Game 1 vs Dredge and Reanimator it would have done work. I had wanted to find space for it but could not. The Lili might be too important vs D+T though. I'm not sure.

The deck felt powerful, RNG missed my Leylines 2 rounds, and I think that of the top tier decks, Sneak and Show is probably the toughest match-up. I think I need Chalice on 1 plus aggressive land destruction to get there. I wish I had room for 2 Trinisphere in the board. With further testing vs. the Jace matchups, I may be able to swap the Spyglasses for 3balls.

Anywho, poor result, but I'm excited to have a list I like.

[Mr. Safety]

Tournament was fun. I went a disappointing 3-4.
Burn 2-0
Manaless Dredge 0-2
Soldier Stompy 2-0
Grixis Reanimator 1-2
Belcher 2-1
Affinity(!) 1-2
Sneak and Show 1-2

I think the only change I will make is cutting the Liliana for a Bojuka Bog. Game 1 vs Dredge and Reanimator it would have done work. I had wanted to find space for it but could not. The Lili might be too important vs D+T though. I'm not sure.

The deck felt powerful, RNG missed my Leylines 2 rounds, and I think that of the top tier decks, Sneak and Show is probably the toughest match-up. I think I need Chalice on 1 plus aggressive land destruction to get there. I wish I had room for 2 Trinisphere in the board. With further testing vs. the Jace matchups, I may be able to swap the Spyglasses for 3balls.

Anywho, poor result, but I'm excited to have a list I like.

The same thing happens to me in many tournaments: I prepare for tier 1-2 decks, see a couple and then face a bunch of randoms. Of your 7 matches, only 3 of them are prevalent at all (I'm counting Burn because it has had a small uptick lately.) I faced not one, but *two* enchantress decks at my last legacy tournament (6 rounds.) Yay legacy right? It's not an indication of how good your deck is placed in the field, it's an indication of many people doing the same thing as you: playing something more fringe to gain an edge.

One small note about Living Wish: it's abysmally slow and requires a fairly high investment in resources. I think you'd be better off playing Crop Rotation or Entomb, maybe maindeck Maze of Ith, Tabernacle, and Karakas. Living Wish lets you handle just about anything, but slowly. Chalice gets you there but only if you draw it early. Looking at the metagame, there aren't really any other Chalice decks making any waves (save for Eldrazi, but that's a completely different animal.)

[ntropy]

One small note about Living Wish: it's abysmally slow and requires a fairly high investment in resources. I think you'd be better off playing Crop Rotation or Entomb, maybe maindeck Maze of Ith, Tabernacle, and Karakas. Living Wish lets you handle just about anything, but slowly. Chalice gets you there but only if you draw it early. Looking at the metagame, there aren't really any other Chalice decks making any waves (save for Eldrazi, but that's a completely different animal.)

Yeah, relying on the Mox Diamonds to have any play at all on turn 1 is a bit rough as well. I'm going to play this a bit more, but I think I will swap to a build designed to exploit Entomb soon. (I 2-1'd the local with it again last night, beating 4 color Shadow Delver Nonsense, and Miracles. I lost to D+T in a close 3 in the Finals) This list feels amazing vs Miracles. I can't quite put my finger on why, since some of my cards line up awkwardly, but it feels unstoppable.

[streetMage]

Chalice is too much of a crutch I feel and if you aren't playing it t1, its pretty much a wasted card slot.
Plus, I like being able to "tutor" with cards like Entomb and Crop Rotation.
Having T1 plays like Thoughtseize aren't bad either...

Updated my list, added a Trophy and testing Vraska in the sideboard..
Since Deathrite is gone I may try two other cards in the Fatal Push slot... maybe 4th Mox and 2nd Bontu's or Liliana, Last Hope..

Lands (28)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
1 Buried Ruin
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Barren Moor
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Cabal Pit

Creatures (1)
1 Nether Spirit

Spells (22)
3 Smallpox
3 Life from the Loam
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Entomb
2 Fatal Push
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Crop Rotation
1 Raven's Crime
1 Collective Brutality

Planeswalkers (3)
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Artifacts (4)
3 Mox Diamond
1 Cursed Scroll

Enchantments (2)
2 Mirri's Guile

Sideboard (15)
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Assassin's Trophy
1 Pithing Needle
1 Damping Sphere
1 Coffin Purge
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Lost Legacy
1 Karakas
1 Crop Rotation
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Vraska, Golgari Queen
1 Ensnaring Bridge

[PuppyWuppy]

Looking to get into pox. Can someone recommend a list that doesn't run the Chains, Void, or tabernacle.

[Kaono]

Looking to get into pox. Can someone recommend a list that doesn't run the Chains, Void, or tabernacle.

https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-reid-legacy-pox/

[Brad Gibson]

Looking to get into pox. Can someone recommend a list that doesn't run the Chains, Void, or tabernacle.

Personally, and not intending to create any controversy here, I would steer clear of the Reid Duke lists in lieu of people who put up results and regularly test the deck. One such person on mtgtop 8 is Clayton Levi, who uses the non-Legends build you were inquiring about. Here is one of his lists which got 1st out of 29 players a few months back, which would probably be a good place to start:

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=19133&d=320904&f=LE

24 LANDS
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
10 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

6 CREATURES
4 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit
1 Tombstalker

23 INSTANTS and SORC.
3 Dark Ritual
1 Fatal Push
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

7 OTHER SPELLS
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

SIDEBOARD
2 Engineered Plague
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge

Using a contemporary, somewhat stock list like this will give you a good idea of how the deck plays at a baseline before you make specific changes. It's also not terribly expensive, at least as far as Legacy decks go.

Have fun poxing people to oblivion!

[aslidsiksoraksi]

yeah 2nd the thing about not going too deep on Reid Duke. Dude did great with the deck once upon a time and he's obviously very intelligent and knows a lot, but I doubt he's played Pox for a while now. The Levi lists are solid. They're a little more aggressive thanks to the Bloodghast stuff, which is actually probably a good place to be with Pox tbh. You could also check out Adachi Ryosuke lists, and just swap some of the legends stuff for more removal/discard/wincons, as suits your meta. He's also a proven player, and the legends cards are rarely more than 3-4 cards on the list, it won't be a huge difference swapping them out.

[Mr. Safety]

yeah 2nd the thing about not going too deep on Reid Duke. Dude did great with the deck once upon a time and he's obviously very intelligent and knows a lot, but I doubt he's played Pox for a while now. The Levi lists are solid. They're a little more aggressive thanks to the Bloodghast stuff, which is actually probably a good place to be with Pox tbh. You could also check out Adachi Ryosuke lists, and just swap some of the legends stuff for more removal/discard/wincons, as suits your meta. He's also a proven player, and the legends cards are rarely more than 3-4 cards on the list, it won't be a huge difference swapping them out.

What happened with your blue version with BStorm's and Jaces? I thought that had a ton of potential.

[Hardcore]

I suppose that didn't pan out.
There are some kind of compatibility problems.

[OmniStrata]

Current Decklist:

Land (25)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Seagate Wreckage
10 Snow-covered Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

Creatures (1)
1 Nether Spirit

Enchantment (1)
1 Nether Void

Artifact (5)
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Phyrexian Totem

Planeswalker (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

Instants (3)
3 Dark Ritual

Sorcery (21)
3 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Beseech the Queen

Sideboard
2 Zombie Infestation
2 Duress
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Liliana, the Last Hope

I do like Clayton's listings, but am not a fan of the Ghasts. Zombie Infestations and Cursed Scroll and Last Hope and Ensnaring Bridge and Seagate Wreckage are a match made in heaven. I can't remember where I got the skeleton for this list. *facepalm* Something of note, this build has a surprisingly strong match against Burn. Never thought it'd happen but there it is.

[Mr. Safety]

Current Decklist:

Land (25)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Seagate Wreckage
10 Snow-covered Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

Creatures (1)
1 Nether Spirit

Enchantment (1)
1 Nether Void

Artifact (5)
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Phyrexian Totem

Planeswalker (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

Instants (3)
3 Dark Ritual

Sorcery (21)
3 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Beseech the Queen

Sideboard
2 Zombie Infestation
2 Duress
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Liliana, the Last Hope

I do like Clayton's listings, but am not a fan of the Ghasts. Zombie Infestations and Cursed Scroll and Last Hope and Ensnaring Bridge and Seagate Wreckage are a match made in heaven. I can't remember where I got the skeleton for this list. *facepalm* Something of note, this build has a surprisingly strong match against Burn. Never thought it'd happen but there it is.

Beseech into Nether Void seems to be lights out against Burn, especially if you resolve even 1 Sinkhole. Non-Thoughtsieze discards help win the race as well.

[ajprice0006]

Hi Pox players, looooong time lurker, first time poster.

I am coming back into the meta after a year deployment and getting used to the SDT and DRS ban. I have had really positive results the past two weeks at various LGS's in the greater DC area with this monoblack list. Critiques, suggestions welcome!

3 dark ritual
2 cursed scroll
3 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 innocent blood
1 fatal push

4 smallpox
3 sinkhole
3 hymn to tourach
1 chains of mephistopheles
2 ratchet bomb

3 LOTV
2 Last hope lili
1 Nether spirit
2 To the slaughter
1 Ensnaring bridge

1 Karn, scion of urza

11 swamp, 1 maze, 4 urborg, 4 factory, 4 waste

SB
1 Karn, scion of urza
1 obnixilis reignited
1 underworld dreams
1 ensnaring bridge
1 engineered plague
1 night of all souls betrayal
1 the abyss
2 collective brutality
4 surgical extraction
1 pithing needle
1 sorcerous spyglass

I am highly impressed with Karn. Chains does not interfere with his card advantage, and pooping out a token creature pumped by the mere presence a pithing needle, a cursed scroll, a ratchet bomb, and two activated mishra's factories has really closed out some grindy games. Against grixis and miracles, dude's a tank. 2 copies maindeck of to the slaughter has been a saving grace against the jace decks and chandra/koth moon crap, and the ratchet bombs have blown up opposing lillies in a pinch and wiped out chalices and scary big Endless Ones with ease.

Underworld dreams likewise is almost a maindeck card for me. I am seldom disappointed to draw it, whether against storm, control, or creature decks.

Overall, Lands does not appear as prevalent as it was when I last played in December 2017, and maybe it's mostly luck, maybe it's the excitement of playing again, but Pox feels pretty well positioned right now. I've gone 4-0, 3-1, 3-0, and 2-1-0 in the past two weeks at different stores. Hoping the run continues!

[Hardcore]

Hi Pox players, looooong time lurker, first time poster.

I am coming back into the meta after a year deployment and getting used to the SDT and DRS ban. I have had really positive results the past two weeks at various LGS's in the greater DC area with this monoblack list. Critiques, suggestions welcome!

3 dark ritual
2 cursed scroll
3 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 innocent blood
1 fatal push

4 smallpox
3 sinkhole
3 hymn to tourach
1 chains of mephistopheles
2 ratchet bomb

3 LOTV
2 Last hope lili
1 Nether spirit
2 To the slaughter
1 Ensnaring bridge

1 Karn, scion of urza

11 swamp, 1 maze, 4 urborg, 4 factory, 4 waste

SB
1 Karn, scion of urza
1 obnixilis reignited
1 underworld dreams
1 ensnaring bridge
1 engineered plague
1 night of all souls betrayal
1 the abyss
2 collective brutality
4 surgical extraction
1 pithing needle
1 sorcerous spyglass

I am highly impressed with Karn. Chains does not interfere with his card advantage, and pooping out a token creature pumped by the mere presence a pithing needle, a cursed scroll, a ratchet bomb, and two activated mishra's factories has really closed out some grindy games. Against grixis and miracles, dude's a tank. 2 copies maindeck of to the slaughter has been a saving grace against the jace decks and chandra/koth moon crap, and the ratchet bombs have blown up opposing lillies in a pinch and wiped out chalices and scary big Endless Ones with ease.

Underworld dreams likewise is almost a maindeck card for me. I am seldom disappointed to draw it, whether against storm, control, or creature decks.

Overall, Lands does not appear as prevalent as it was when I last played in December 2017, and maybe it's mostly luck, maybe it's the excitement of playing again, but Pox feels pretty well positioned right now. I've gone 4-0, 3-1, 3-0, and 2-1-0 in the past two weeks at different stores. Hoping the run continues!

Nice deck. Over here lands never went away. The value of big 20/20 flying monsters is too good to be ignored.

[AruSulato]

Hi,

Played a tournament in France with BG pOX with the list below, ~60 players and finish 3-4rd. The list is strong and has answered near everything.

Spells

4x ENTOMB
2x LIFE FROM THE LOAM
2x LILIANA OF THE VEIL
3x SMALLPOX
2x FATAL PUSH
3x ABRUPT DECAY
1x ASSASSIN TROPHY
1x MAELSTROM PULSE
1x GO FOR THE THROAT
3x HYMN TO TOURACH
1x INQUISITION OF KOZILEK
1x DURESS
1x LINGERING SOULS
1x NETHER SPIRIT
1x GOLGARI BROWNSCALE
2x MOX DIAMOND
1x SYLVAN LIBRARY
1x PERNICIOUS DEED
1x DARKBLAST
3x INNOCENT BLOOD

Lands

4x VERDANT CATACOMBS
3x BAYOU
1x BLOOMING MARSH (don't have the 4th Bayou yet)
1x WOODLAND CEMETERY
3x URBORG, tomb of Yawgoth
4x BARREN MOOR
2x SWAMP
1x FOREST
1x CABAL PIT
4x WASTELAND
1x MISHRA'S FACTORY

Sideboard

2x SADISTIC SACRAMENT
2x ENGINEERED PLAGUE (awsome)
1x CHOKE
1x LEYLINE OF THE VOID
1x COFFIN PURGE
1x KROSAN RECLAMATION
2x EXTIRPATE (should have been 1 of each - 1 surgical, 1 extirpate)
1x GOLGARI CHARM
1x RAVEN'S CRIME
1x AKUTA, BORN OF ASHES
1x DAMPING SPHERE
1x BONTU'S LAST RECKONING

Quick report

ROUND 1 vs DEATH & TAXES 2-0

gAME 1 : entomb searching darkblast made the whole game.
gaMe 2 : he can't find graveyard hate. Controlling the whole game.

ROUND 2 vs GRIXIS CONTROL 1-2

gamE 1 : the only problem is Jace, and I'm playing now Assassin Trophy and a Pulse. Also, the association of Nether Spirit and Golgari Brownscale make the life difficult for the blue Planeswalker if you can deal with their Gurmag (and with darkblast to deal with cheap creatures it's relatively easy for your Inoocent Blood or SmallPox to catch them). But my opponent didn't find his lands soon enough before I began loaming.

Game 2 : A lot of hate, and a TNN.

Game 3 : A BloodMoon and I can't find a swamp/Mox Diamond to cast Decay soon enough before dying. He had no pressure but two Snapcasters and I've named Merfolk on my Engineered Plague (probably because of game 2, damn!). Naming Human probably give me a lot more turns to find a black source.

ROUND 3 vs DEATH SHADOW 2-0

GamE 1 : Loam + Waste and my opponent did'nt find any threats.

Game 2 : My opponent made a mistake when he shuffled a Gurmag on top with a fetchland. I can get rid off a another one and a Death Shadow (with Nether Spirit). Just took one big hit from the shadow and managed to deal with his last points of life. Bad luck also for him, he milled two graveyard hate with a thought scour, but you need luck also in your tournaments ;-)

ROUND 4 vs UR DELVER 2-0

Game 1 : My opponent has drawn too many lands for what the deck want to do. Golgari Brownscale gave me also just enough life to survive (6 or 8 life). Deal with all his creatures, so I just feared Price of Progress.

Game 2 : Waste the first land and he didn't find another one soon enough.

ROUND 5 vs BR REANIMATOR 2-1

Game 1 : Double Chancellor revealed and win on the 3rd turn after reanimate in the same turn a Chancellor and Grisou. He discarded me the answers I had in hand.

Game 2 : He cast a discard spell, see a Krosan Reclamation but didn't read the whole text box (flashback). He want to reanimate Iona (which is game over for me), I flashback my Reclamation. Controlling the rest of the game especially with Sadistic Sacrament removing Iona and two Exhume (I can destroy the Animate deads with Decay in hand and he's now too low on life to cast Reanimate). I also destroy a Griselbrand in this game with GftT.

Game 3 : I cast a Mox early and an entomb in response to a discard spell to put a Coffin Purge in my grave, so I'm protected now against Iona or another early threat. I'm patient and wait for a fourth mana source to cast Liliana. Lingering souls tokens make little pressure, and he got a turn when he can reanimate a Chancellor and suddenly with only one mana open I can no more cast the Coffin Purge in my graveyard. He also exhume a Griselbrand. Hopefully I had a second Lili in hand, so I can make him sacrifice his two flying creatures and I win two turns after.

ROUND 6 vs MARDU AGRO-COMBO 2-0

Had to play this one to enter top8

Game 1 : He revealed a Chancellor at the opening :-/, again a tense game ? No, I cast a discard spell and see Young Pyromancer, Monastery Mentor, Lingering Souls and Entomb (my choice). Loaming find me everything (darkblast especially), I've wasted all but 2 basics. Easy game and really cool deck mixing good mardu cards like the ones mentionned before, cabal therapy and faithless looting. His reanimation targets are 4 Chancellor and an Elesh Norn. But his strategy is not good against me.

Game 2 : A Golgari charm destroyed all his board except for a Monastery Mentor. I played then an Innocent Blood. This play made the whole game. Again, loam + waste maKe his development difficult.

TOP 8 QUARTER vs MIRACLE 2-1

Game 1 : Fetch my basics soon to dodge B2B. Lot of discard spell, finish the game with a lonely Mishra's Factory. It's easier when he spend two cards to cast FOW, and lose 2 others to Hymn.

Game 2 : Raven's crime discard his whole hand, but he finds a Monastery Mentor. I make a big mistake when I cast a Golgari charm end step when one of the two tokens was a 2/2 (with a prowess trigger resolved). Could have been played better. My smallpox in hand is dead now. He finds another one and it's too pressure for me to answer. Deed was my only chance but didn't find it.

Game 3 : Pass a discard spell, see nothing but 2 preordain and a Council Judgment (my choice). Next turn cast Engineered Plague on Human (Snap & Monk) but he had drawn a FOW (ouch!!!). Okay, next turn Choke ;-). He played a Snap on nothing to put pressure and I didn't find anything but Sadistic Sacrament to remove 2 Jace and a Council Judgment. The lone Snappy put me to one life ! before I draw a Lili. Made a mistake when we both have only around 15 cards left in library when I flashback Lingering souls and he had an EE on 0 on board. Should have blown the EE first with Decay. In my head I can't lose because my library is bigger, but he played Surgical !... and extract me only two cards, which wasn't enough. Forget that I got a second Sadistic Sacrament left and this time I kicked this one for lethal !!! yeah. This game I've made the Ultimate of Lili three times sometimes just for one land ;-)

TOP 8 SEMI vs SLOW DEPTHS 1-2

Game 1 : A lot a discard spells from him let a Dark Confident survive few turns. Hopefully, a Lingering Souls cast with a Mox put some pressure after dealing Bob. Loam + waste blew up his lands but he managed to create a Marit Lage token. Smallpox to deal with it and he was just on two Mox Diamond and concede right after.

Game 2 : I wasn't sure about the identity of my opponent's deck (we don't look at decklists), I think first it was 4Color loam with thoughtseize and crop (maybe entomb) instead of the Chalices, so I side out all my discard spells (which is bad). Also a mulligan to 4 didn't help me a lot. Fight a little but too much grave hate and a early wasteland stopped me.

Game 3 : My own strategy played against me by my opponent. Managed to extract Thespian Stage, but the game gone deep and despite I was really behind, a fresh entomb find me Loam --but a second Surgical, after removing all my wastelands, exil all of them from my library. He also played a Ghost Quarter and an early Loam by his side let him recurse it and I concede when I lost my last lands on board ;;;;-)))))))

The other finalist was RUG Delver, so a nice match-up for me. Really regrettable!

Nice tournament, few changes are going to be made :
- find a Scrubland ;-)
- replace the GftT by an Assassin Trophy
- Questionning me about some toolbox lands like karakas and Bojuka Bog
- add a fifth fetchland (maybe instead of a Barren Moor)
- Lingering souls, even if I often cast it for only 2 tokens, is awsome, so a second copy is considered
- Great side-board, maybe cut a Sadistic but not sure, really good against some match-up. Damping sphere not sure about it, want something against ANT and Elfball without being tax myself (sphere of resistance).

Didn't regret any choice in the main, only the manabase had to be revisited.

++

[Hardcore]

Good job! I like the tech in your deck. Would hate to fight it however

[streetMage]

...Spells

4x ENTOMB
2x LIFE FROM THE LOAM
2x LILIANA OF THE VEIL
3x SMALLPOX
2x FATAL PUSH
3x ABRUPT DECAY
1x ASSASSIN TROPHY
1x MAELSTROM PULSE
1x GO FOR THE THROAT
3x HYMN TO TOURACH
1x INQUISITION OF KOZILEK
1x DURESS
1x LINGERING SOULS
1x NETHER SPIRIT
1x GOLGARI BROWNSCALE
2x MOX DIAMOND
1x SYLVAN LIBRARY
1x PERNICIOUS DEED
1x DARKBLAST
3x INNOCENT BLOOD

Lands

4x VERDANT CATACOMBS
3x BAYOU
1x BLOOMING MARSH (don't have the 4th Bayou yet)
1x WOODLAND CEMETERY
3x URBORG, tomb of Yawgoth
4x BARREN MOOR
2x SWAMP
1x FOREST
1x CABAL PIT
4x WASTELAND
1x MISHRA'S FACTORY

Sideboard

2x SADISTIC SACRAMENT
2x ENGINEERED PLAGUE (awsome)
1x CHOKE
1x LEYLINE OF THE VOID
1x COFFIN PURGE
1x KROSAN RECLAMATION
2x EXTIRPATE (should have been 1 of each - 1 surgical, 1 extirpate)
1x GOLGARI CHARM
1x RAVEN'S CRIME
1x AKUTA, BORN OF ASHES
1x DAMPING SPHERE
1x BONTU'S LAST RECKONING...Awesome report and nice tech!!
Few recommendations:

-1 Entomb, +1 Crop Rotation: Crop Rotation is a good instant speed tutor for lands like Bojuka Bog and Karakas.

-1 Barren Moor, +1 Bojuka Bog: Bojuka Bog is good against gy decks, Lands and Storm.

-1 Wasteland, +1 Karakas: Putting the Karakas mainboard can help cast Lingering Souls and is better than adding the Scrubland since its good against Reanimator, SnT and Dark Depths etc... you can also fetch it with Crop Rotation.

-1 Inquisition of Kozelik and -1 Duress, +2 Thoughtseize: I think Thoughtseize is just better.

-1 Pernicious Deed, +1 Bontu's Last Reckoning or Toxic Deluge: Pernicious Deed is bad with Mox Diamond and can destroy Sylvan Library.

Other:
I would find room for at least 1x Liliana, the Last Hope (really good against DnT and Grixis) and one more Mox Diamond.

I think Lost Legacy is easier to cast than Sadistic Sacrament.

Just my two cents, I think I will add Lingering Souls to my BG Pox list too!

[Hardcore]

Way cool that he did kick sadistic sacrament :laugh:

[AruSulato]

@streetMage :

The idea of adding a Crop is releavant if I considere Karakas & Bojuka. Probably test that technology a little, even if cutting the 4rth Entomb didn't seems great for me at first. Entomb is good in your opening against near every match-up, but I can search a Wasteland also with crop, so...

The thing is, that the match-up against Lands and Storm are gonna be solved more in game 2 & 3 with sideboard cards.

I can cut effectively a Waste if I play a Crop, that can be considere, yeah.

For thoughtseize, definitely not. Life points are too much relevant, what cards do you have in mind that inquisition or duress do not take and you absolutely want to remove from their hand ? Never face such a case until now (maybe Academy Rector), and I prefer be more conservative with my life. If it's just for FOW, I can turn around and force them to spend two cards. And now we have Assassin Trophy to deal with JaceTMS.

For pernicious, it was just to have something to control the game permanently just by having it on board. Bontu is in sideboard, toxic too much life to spend. Also deed deal with permanents other than creatures (equipment, vial, chalice, creepy enchantments...) Ok, it's slow, it's an old school card, and not synergystic with mox but you're playing loam, so loose a mox I think it's not really impacting.

Liliana last hope seems great because it's also a finisher. Darkblast do near the same and if fetchable with entomb, and second capacity of this Lili don't serve us at all. But I think she's good enough to find a slot somewhere, maybe in sideboard.

Major difference between Lost Legacy (I considere it a time) and Sadistic Sacrament is you can choose 3 "different cards" and that's huge. Against Miracles, taking the Entreat the Angels and two Jace is a big deal. Against Reanimator, different stuffs. Against Storm, game over. But you're right, the 3rd black mana to cast it isn't anecdotic and can be relevant. But I take that risk because you're gonna be reward more and the card is more impactful than Lost Legacy by a lot. Also, I'm on a BG list so just 1 Mishra, 1 Forest and Wastes if I don't draw an Urborg. I don't know if the card is so good enough to take two slots, but definitely don't add Lost Legacy as a replacement.

25 lands 2 mox seems good for me for as long I'm playing the deck. That said, a third one don't offense me.

And thank you very much for your thoughts about the list ;-) ! Always helpful to improve our approach of the list.

@Hardcore : a delightful reward for playing a weird card ;-)

++