[Primer/Deck] Pox

[Brad Gibson]

Hi,
Played a tournament in France with BG pOX with the list below, ~60 players and finish 3-4rd. The list is strong and has answered near everything.
...


Thanks for sharing your list! Since you had success with the list, I had some questions:

1. There are only 4 win conditions maindeck, and 1 sideboard. Is closing out a game ever a problem for you? Or do you simply find win conditions easier with tutors?

2. I see you only run two planeswalkers. Do you not consider Liliana of the Veil that important?

3. When exactly do you board in Akuta, Born of Ashes?

[AruSulato]

Hi Brad,

Ok, :

-1 : Closing out a game never be a problem in any game, even against Miracles where I sided out both Nether Spirit and the Brownscale because of STP. The thing is dredging Loam bring you naturally your threats in the gyard and you always find them. Also, you have Entomb to find them. Against all the match-up that didn't run white for STP, Nether Spirit and the Brownscale are efficient enough. Remember that you also run Cabal Pit and Darkblast so even a Gurmag don't stay long in defense when you have controlled the board. 4 life per turn is what you want, you just have to combine 2 threats.

-2 : It's weird to say that Liliana of the Veil is not THAT important, in fact it's half true. Think a time of playing a third, but I really think that in my list, two is the right number. Someone make me considere a Liliana last hope in sideboard and it's probably a good card to test. I can only add that, after playtest a lot, most of the time you want a Liliana when you've already controlled the board and not before. So you don't need to have one in your opening. You're also running 3x SmallPox that make quite the same effect. I think it's not an error to play a third, I just think it's not an absolute necessity or auto-include.

-3 : Akuta is here to add some pressure against deck like ANT where controlling just the hand isn't good enough. You have to add more pressure until they assemble combo pieces. So I bring it in against combo match-up like ANT, Sneak&Show and Reanimator. Also, it's not bad against non-white Jace deck like Grixis Control (with entomb you can surprisingly kill a Jace). Probably I bring it in also against MUD match-ups and Burn. The big problem sometimes is that it requires you to have more cards in hand than your opponent the time you want to reanimate it, so you have to considere keeping more lands in hand and/or dredging loam-cast loam to have a ~full grip. If you have a better card to advise, I take it ;-) (Centaur Vinecrusher isn't one of them ;-)

++

[Hardcore]

Smart of you to find Akuta. I have toyed with it in the mono B deck, but it is clear the right place for it is in your loam deck.

[kombatkiwi]

There is also Rot Farm Skeleton which does a similar thing, but I don't have any experience with Loam versions so I'm not sure which would be easier to return


Rot Farm Skeleton
2BG Plant Skeleton
4/1
Rot Farm Skeleton can't block
2BG, Put the top 4 cards of your library into your graveyard: Return Rot Farm Skeleton from your graveyard to the battlefield. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery.

[Mr. Safety]

There is also Rot Farm Skeleton which does a similar thing, but I don't have any experience with Loam versions so I'm not sure which would be easier to return

Four mana is a lot. I toyed with it in EDH where mana is opulent, but in Legacy while you're playing Smallpox it's not exactly efficient. I tried Gigapede, which doesn't require any mana to get back, but was still hard to cast at five mana. Undead Gladiator was actually decent because it had an alternative use as a cycler, but a slower clock.

One of my favorite interactions for BG Pox is Eternal Witness + Unearth. It's just so good! Abysmally slow as a clock though.

[streetMage]

..Akuta is here to add some pressure against deck like ANT where controlling just the hand isn't good enough. You have to add more pressure until they assemble combo pieces. So I bring it in against combo match-up like ANT, Sneak&Show and Reanimator. Also, it's not bad against non-white Jace deck like Grixis Control (with entomb you can surprisingly kill a Jace). ..I usto run 2x Bloodghast as my free creature option.. pretty good at closing the game where you'd want Akuta imo...

[AruSulato]

Bloodghast is the easiest way, it just somehow a lit bit weak to add pressure if you only bring one to the battlefield. I have to reconsidere my entire strategy (turn it more agro-control and plaiying at least three bloodghast, which is a way to explore), but if I want to keep this deck a straight control/prison deck, I'm probably try to find at least a 3-power creature that can be fetch with entomb.

Akuta seems per default the best option, but Undead Gladiator is probably a bullet to test also, it has some nice capacities sygergizing with the rest of the list, maybe a lit bit slow (wait for the upkeep and pay 1B, then cast it).

I considere also playing three Tarmos in the sideboard.

[ponzax]

Hi all,
long time lurker here.

Playing mono-b-pox causaly since long time, when chimeric idol was used in this deck.


I wanted to share this with you guys, because i got much information from here and also mtgsalvation. But there is no pox thread anymore. I dont know why, it disappeared one day. Otherwise, i assume you are interested in reports. So, here it its.

Today i played my first official Tournament at a LGS nearby. There were four rounds played.
It was really fun and i went there not expecting anything good results, but getting some experience in real life playing (foreign peoples).
I practised and experimented alot with my list in the past few weeks (online). I have to say, that i do not have this expensive cards and im a kind of oldschool guy. So i mention cards i use, which see likely no play in maindecks:
2x Ratchet Bomb
4x Pox
1x Spyglass

I know, big pox is not used nowadays, but in my testings against actual metagem decks, it was like a MVP, because when this resolved, it won me the game most of times (play it alongside Lilianas). In combination with mishras, bloodghasts or netherspirit, the delve guys and some other disruption you can often kill enemies before they can stabilize their game. Ratchet Bomb in main ist a result for chalices and other cheap stuff, you can wipe away.

I do not exactly recognize every step of the games, because i was really nervous at first and it was for me really exhausting too.
So i tell you guys what i remember. Im not native english speaker, so excuse me for weird wordings.


My first round was against URW Phoenix.
1. I start with hand disruption and resolve resolve pox on T3 and T4. He had Phoenixes in the grave, but not enough spells to get them back. Bloodghast and Mishra seal the game.
2. He starts with ponder or brainstorm. In my first turn i start with inquisition and took his buried alive. He had a mentor and some other stuff.
Turn two hymn him and he resolved the mentor on his turn. I answer it with a Pox and waste his dual. Finish the game with Mishra while disrupt his recovery.
(2:0)

Second game was against DnT.
1.Game one went forth and back, but i could killed his Thalia with innocent blood and his crusader with a bomb on three. I was at six life forcing him to discard his stuff and killed him with bloodghast.
2. I sideboarded engineered Plague and resolved it, after he had some board presence. So double mother of runes were gone and he had one revoker left. I had a bloodghast and mishra. After smallpoxing his revoker i beat him with both. He vialed in flickerwisp two times. Both times he blocked and flickered my liliana. Then i drew a Angler and he scooped.
(2:0)

Third games was against aggro loam.
1. This was really fast. He got really big knights and killed me, because i drew nothing special.
2. Second game he flooded and i killed him slowly with mishra (he trophied a mishra one time) and bloodghast.
3. I was not able to get control over the game and he killed me with his knights.
(1:2)

I have not much experience with this type of deck and was not sure how to sideboard.

The last round was against like an eldrazi hybrid build.
He had these little ones (Reshaper and TKS) and some more expensive one for 6-7 mana (dont know the names). Other cards he played were grim monolith, all is dust and chalice.
1. First game was quick. I kill most of lands and and Angler + Bloodghast kill him quicker than he can recover.
2. On turn two he resolved a TKS and turn three a big one. The TKS was crucial, because it took my pox i wanted to cast on next turn. I had a Netherspirit, but he had a faerie macabre. So, he was able to kill me fast.
3. I took his grim monolith on turn one. Than i punched him a few turns with mishra. He finally casts a Trinisphere, trying to stop me casting spells. But i had drawn three wastelands this game and so i pinged him with mishra to 6 life in combination with Liliana (i resolved it a turn after he got trinisphere out.) and some disruption spells (hymn e.g.). As i cast an Tombstalker, he scoops.


I enjoyed playing the deck and it was a great experience, but 3:1 i was not expecting at all.


Thx for reading, questions welcome.

Best regards!

[Hardcore]

Good job! Questions? Yeah, where is your deck list!

[naynay666]

Good job! Questions? Yeah, where is your deck list!

Also interested to see. 4 Pox, Bloodghast, Tomby & a Gurmangler sounds beefy.

[Hardcore]

Also interested to see. 4 Pox, Bloodghast, Tomby & a Gurmangler sounds beefy.

Maybe one could call it Monster Pox?:)

[ponzax]

Hi all,
oh yes i forgot the list. Sry, i was focused on remembering the games, so i didnt add my list.

So, here it is:

Lands (24)
10x Swamp
4x Urborg
4x Mishra
4x Wasteland
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Maze of Ith
____________

Sorceries (21)
1x Duress
3x Inquisiton
1x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn
4x Smallpox
4x Pox
1x Beseech the Queen
3x Innocent Blood
____________

Instants (5)
3x Dark Ritual
2x Disfigure
____________

Creatures (7)
1x Nether Spirit
4x Bloodghast
1x Angler
1x Tombstalker
____________

Artifacts (3)
1x Spyglass
2x Ratchet Bomb
___________

Planeswalkers (2)
2x Liliana
__________
__________


Sideboard:

Artifacts (6)
1x Needle
1x Spyglass
2x Bridge
2x Relic
________

Sorceries (4)
2x Lost Legacy
2x Bontu`s last reckoning
_______

Instants (2)
2x Extirpate
_______

Enchantments (2)
2x Engineered Plague
________

Planeswalker (1)

Liliana last hope
__________
__________


I know this list is 61 cards, but i had to make a decision between one tutor or no tutor at all, so i decided to run one beseech as card 61. It seems, many people dont like lists, with more than 60 cards. Personaly, i dont care ;-).
One time it was relevant, because it won me a match due to tutoring a pox.

This List, lacks good graveyard hate, but luckily i wasnt paired with the dredge players.
Personally i would like to play Faeries/ Surgicals/ Leylines (maybe with Helm) as six sb cards of choice.


Best regards!

[coff33bit]

Hi all,
oh yes i forgot the list. Sry, i was focused on remembering the games, so i didnt add my list.

So, here it is:

Lands (24)
10x Swamp
4x Urborg
4x Mishra
4x Wasteland
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Maze of Ith
____________

Sorceries (21)
1x Duress
3x Inquisiton
1x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn
4x Smallpox
4x Pox
1x Beseech the Queen
3x Innocent Blood
____________

Instants (5)
3x Dark Ritual
2x Disfigure
____________

Creatures (7)
1x Nether Spirit
4x Bloodghast
1x Angler
1x Tombstalker
____________

Artifacts (3)
1x Spyglass
2x Ratchet Bomb
___________

Planeswalkers (2)
2x Liliana
__________
__________


Sideboard:

Artifacts (6)
1x Needle
1x Spyglass
2x Bridge
2x Relic
________

Sorceries (4)
2x Lost Legacy
2x Bontu`s last reckoning
_______

Instants (2)
2x Extirpate
_______

Enchantments (2)
2x Engineered Plague
________

Planeswalker (1)

Liliana last hope
__________
__________


I know this list is 61 cards, but i had to make a decision between one tutor or no tutor at all, so i decided to run one beseech as card 61. It seems, many people dont like lists, with more than 60 cards. Personaly, i dont care ;-).
One time it was relevant, because it won me a match due to tutoring a pox.

This List, lacks good graveyard hate, but luckily i wasnt paired with the dredge players.
Personally i would like to play Faeries/ Surgicals/ Leylines (maybe with Helm) as six sb cards of choice.


Best regards!

Glad you had success with the deck, always good to hear. If I might make a suggestion though, with 4 Smallpox, and 4 Pox, running only 24 land and no Crucible of Worlds does not seem optimal. I would suggest dropping the number of Pox to maybe 2, and add an additional land, this would also bring you down to 60 cards.

The percentage points are rather small when you weigh a 60 card deck vs a 61 card deck, but being as Pox has no cantrips, actual card advantage, or deck manipulation I think it needs all the help it can get.

[ronco]

Glad you had success with the deck, always good to hear. If I might make a suggestion though, with 4 Smallpox, and 4 Pox, running only 24 land and no Crucible of Worlds does not seem optimal. I would suggest dropping the number of Pox to maybe 2, and add an additional land, this would also bring you down to 60 cards.

The percentage points are rather small when you weigh a 60 card deck vs a 61 card deck, but being as Pox has no cantrips, actual card advantage, or deck manipulation I think it needs all the help it can get.

I run 4 small and 4 big pox in my list, with 24 lands and i concur with this statement. After 1 or two pox, i find it difficult to get back to 3 lands sometimes and just have to hope my board state gets there (a ghast or affliction usually). most of th etime it does, but it gets worrisome at times!

[Mr. Safety]

I would never register a Pox list without Crucible of Worlds. They are super affordable, I would get 1-2 copies into the 75. Recurring Wasteland is a big draw, but even getting back Swamps and Factories is just plain card advantage after Poxing. It's even more reliable if you're splashing a Beseech the Queen to find it.

[ponzax]

Yes, you were right about the number of lands and your suggestions are very much appreciated!

I am unsure about the "right" number. I started with 27, 26, 25 and went down to 24, because i flooded more often and it felt like to not have enough "ammunition" for constantly disruption.
Sure, in test games i kept enough promising one land hands, just to get punished not drawn a land (or colorless) right at time, so i could not cast eg a hymn or smallpox. Like ronco wrote, there seems to be sometimes a "high tension" if your a land will be your next draw to cast something you want to.
Cutting Pox, i dont know. Maybe i try 3 copies. Its effect is to good to miss and sure, given to every individual boardstates it should be appropriate timed.

No topdeck manipulation is a huge drawback. Im testing cards like darksteel pendant right now, because i could not find other cards besides the card Crystal ball. But it is expensive and it does nothing as it comes into play.

Crucible is very good, no doubt. I started at the beginning with one in main and one in sb, but decide to cut it, because of other things. Likely you are right about 1 in the 75 with a beseech of the queen and the advantages if you can resolve it are, like you say a big draw.

I will cut the Rituals and add +1 Swamp and maybe some other stuff.


Best Regards!

[Brad Gibson]

Yes, you were right about the number of lands and your suggestions are very much appreciated!

I am unsure about the "right" number. I started with 27, 26, 25 and went down to 24, because i flooded more often and it felt like to not have enough "ammunition" for constantly disruption

...

To add my two cents, this is one reason I really like Syphon Life. My reasoning is that this card allows us to run more lands, as we are want to do, and then turn them into a top deck win condition as the game progresses, making the deck more consistent. When it's in the graveyard, ~40% of your library is now a 4 point life difference, whereas before it was just another land leading to mana flooding.

In practice, these points have proven themselves to be true to me. A plus side is that Syphon Life can be discarded to Liliana or Smallpox and your opponent even forgets it's there until 5 turns later. Another advantage is that it gives us a few extra points of life, as we oftentimes get to a low life total before turning the game into our favor.

I second the notion that Crucible of Worlds is a solid inclusion for us, and obviously complements Syphon Life as well.

[Pittplayer]

Hi all,
oh yes i forgot the list. Sry, i was focused on remembering the games, so i didnt add my list.

So, here it is:

Lands (24)
10x Swamp
4x Urborg
4x Mishra
4x Wasteland
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Maze of Ith
____________

Sorceries (21)
1x Duress
3x Inquisiton
1x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn
4x Smallpox
4x Pox
1x Beseech the Queen
3x Innocent Blood
____________

Instants (5)
3x Dark Ritual
2x Disfigure
____________

Creatures (7)
1x Nether Spirit
4x Bloodghast
1x Angler
1x Tombstalker
____________

Artifacts (3)
1x Spyglass
2x Ratchet Bomb
___________

Planeswalkers (2)
2x Liliana
__________
__________


Sideboard:

Artifacts (6)
1x Needle
1x Spyglass
2x Bridge
2x Relic
________

Sorceries (4)
2x Lost Legacy
2x Bontu`s last reckoning
_______

Instants (2)
2x Extirpate
_______

Enchantments (2)
2x Engineered Plague
________

Planeswalker (1)

Liliana last hope
__________
__________


I know this list is 61 cards, but i had to make a decision between one tutor or no tutor at all, so i decided to run one beseech as card 61. It seems, many people dont like lists, with more than 60 cards. Personaly, i dont care ;-).
One time it was relevant, because it won me a match due to tutoring a pox.

This List, lacks good graveyard hate, but luckily i wasnt paired with the dredge players.
Personally i would like to play Faeries/ Surgicals/ Leylines (maybe with Helm) as six sb cards of choice.


Best regards!

Running Bloodghasts without fetchlands is completely incorrect. The ability to give them psudo haste eot and also protect them from gy hate by fetching them out in response is too important.

[Hardcore]

When playing big pox you need to build around it. Most important is to have a good mana base.

[Hardcore]

I went 4-0 today at the LGS.

After facing Grixis control last Tuesday I added two Darkblast to the deck. As luck would have it my opponents played, Delver, Delver , Maverick and Delver (in that order)

The deck:

4 Bloodghast
2 Tombstalker
4 Shrieking Affliction
1 Buried Alive
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Collective Brutality
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Darkblast
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
13 Swamp
1 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Pithing Needle
4 Engineered Plague

Exciting games but i can't recall that much. Most interesting thing was that my opponents tested Pteramander. It may stay, as extra delvers, but the original is probably better.

[ronco]

I went 4-0 today at the LGS.

After facing Grixis control last Tuesday I added two Darkblast to the deck. As luck would have it my opponents played, Delver, Delver , Maverick and Delver (in that order)

The deck:

Exciting games but i can't recall that much. Most interesting thing was that my opponents tested Pteramander. It may stay, as extra delvers, but the original is probably better.

Nice!
Interesting move, and it makes sense, to dip the wastelands when running 8 poxes. I may give that a shot in my big pox, all the BB/BBB will be easier to cast and i won't have to worry about an urborg.

[Hardcore]

Nice!
Interesting move, and it makes sense, to dip the wastelands when running 8 poxes. I may give that a shot in my big pox, all the BB/BBB will be easier to cast and i won't have to worry about an urborg.

Bear in mind that is just how my deck evolved. I leave no guarantees it was in the right direction. :wink:

[non-inflammable]

Bear in mind that is just how my deck evolved. I leave no guarantees it was in the right direction. :wink:

the 4x shrieking affliction is probably a very good addition; i've played it in modern 8 rack, but never legacy.
if your opponent keeps cards in hand to avoid the 3 life loss, then all your discard is still live.

[Hardcore]

the 4x shrieking affliction is probably a very good addition; i've played it in modern 8 rack, but never legacy.
if your opponent keeps cards in hand to avoid the 3 life loss, then all your discard is still live.

You would be surprised how many opponents empty their hands even with affliction on the table. Often playing that surplus land they don't need. Maybe it is a sign they feel they are going to lose anyway.

[Koplinchen]

I went 4-0 today at the LGS.

The deck:

4Bloodghast
2Tombstalker
4Shrieking Affliction
1Buried Alive
4Hymn to Toura...

What a cool deck! I bought my last big Pox today. I will definetly try this soon! (I just need some cool old same swamps)

The question I have: wouldnt Cabal Therapy be perfect fit for this list? Thank you!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hardcore]

Glad you like it :smile:

I am no big fan of 1-för-1 discard. It has happened too often that I've been discarded to Oblivion but still won the match.
That I have Inquisitions in this latest list is because I wanted to improve the mana curve. There is a ton of expensive spells in the deck.
Cabal therapy are great with veteran explorer, and young Pyromancer, but not really with Bloodghast.

[coff33bit]

I went 4-0 today at the LGS.

After facing Grixis control last Tuesday I added two Darkblast to the deck. As luck would have it my opponents played, Delver, Delver , Maverick and Delver (in that order)

The deck:

4 Bloodghast
2 Tombstalker
4 Shrieking Affliction
1 Buried Alive
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Collective Brutality
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Darkblast
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
13 Swamp
1 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Pithing Needle
4 Engineered Plague

Exciting games but i can't recall that much. Most interesting thing was that my opponents tested Pteramander. It may stay, as extra delvers, but the original is probably better.

I'm curious what are you bringing in Vampire Hexmage for? You don't seem to be affected by Chalice of the Void as your curve is quite balanced, is it just for JtmS and Chandra? I do want to try this out, but I only have 3 Surgical's, could you see a 2/2 or 3/1 split of Surgical/Extirpate or am I better off with something else?

[Hardcore]

The sideboard is always a work in progress. In this case the hexmage was a test. In theory it has several match ups were it is useful, particularly any deck with dark depths. Problem is that it takes both hexmage and Smallpox to get rid of the token. That is a two piece combo. To the Slaughter otoh is a one piece combo.
So, hexmage is probably destined to be put back in the binder.

As for surgicals and all that note that surgicals and leyline have different functions, but the reason I don't run both is to not have too much gy hate in the 15.
Leyline of the void have the advantage of being safe from discard (since it is in play at start.) I find that card better. Its stops dredge, lands and Reanimator hard, and is useful vs Maverick and decks with snapcaster, past in flames etc.
Now and then do i test surgical but soon go back to leyline.
Therefore both Leyline and Engineered Plague are usually four of in the sb.

[Koplinchen]

And how to deal with opponents leylines (black, white), rips, chalices? Particularly removing our grave is painful as we have hard time to kill then.

Tom


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hardcore]

And how to deal with opponents leylines (black, white), rips, chalices? Particularly removing our grave is painful as we have hard time to kill then.

Tom


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The cards you mention are just an annoyance to me. For the more traditional Smallpox deck they could be a problem however. Try splashing a colour for enchantment hate in sb, or perhaps run nevinyrral's disk or ratchet bombs.

[Pittplayer]

New card for my pox deck! I run a Bloodghast aggro Pox deck. Cabal Therapist is absolutely going in my sideboard. Vs spell heavy combo, out 4 Innocent Blood, in 4 Cabal Therapist.

[Hardcore]

Some new fun cards for Pox would be welcome. I am not impressed by this card however. Not in Pox, but definitely in a suicide build!

[Pittplayer]

Some new fun cards for Pox would be welcome. I am not impressed by this card however. Not in Pox, but definitely in a suicide build!

Well, if there is any chance to see some more Pox like cards, it will be in Modern Horizons. Fingers crossed.

[Hardcore]

I have heard of this horizons thing but doesn't now anything about it. Is it the next expansion or something to the side?

[ronco]

I have heard of this horizons thing but doesn't now anything about it. Is it the next expansion or something to the side?

Something to the side. Its a supplemental set that bypasses standard and goes directly into modern (and, by extension, i would assume legacy and vintage as well).

Regarding the card, i think regular cabal therapy would work better if that was the effect you want. It is a turn faster at a minimum, can still be flash backed for the second activation, and i think the amount of times you get the engine going with this card and spirit/bloodghast + lands is probably not worth the slowing down. Unless you already have 4x therapy and you wanted copies 5-8. That's my take on it. I'm happy to be proven wrong.

[Pittplayer]

Something to the side. Its a supplemental set that bypasses standard and goes directly into modern (and, by extension, i would assume legacy and vintage as well).

Regarding the card, i think regular cabal therapy would work better if that was the effect you want. It is a turn faster at a minimum, can still be flash backed for the second activation, and i think the amount of times you get the engine going with this card and spirit/bloodghast + lands is probably not worth the slowing down. Unless you already have 4x therapy and you wanted copies 5-8. That's my take on it. I'm happy to be proven wrong.

Correct. In addition to your regular discard suite. But as anyone who has played Pox vs combo knows, you can disrupt them all day, but you still need to put them away. So when your opp has been throughly disrupted, you can beat down.

[ronco]

Correct. In addition to your regular discard suite. But as anyone who has played Pox vs combo knows, you can disrupt them all day, but you still need to put them away. So when your opp has been throughly disrupted, you can beat down.

Mind sharing a list?

[naynay666]

Must be top secret tech.


Anyhow, something spicy on mtgtop8- The only 2 :frown: Pox lists up are both Chalice decks. One only runs two, the other the full set.
Other tidbits, no Chains in either. The 2nd has no Cursed Scroll and runs 2 Null Rod in the sideboard.

John O'Keefe
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=21232&d=341781&f=LE
(There is actually a typo on the page. Listed "Mishra" instead of "Mishra's Factory")

24 LANDS
1 Cabal Pit
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
11 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 CREATURES
1 Nether Spirit
20 INSTANTS and SORC.
1 Beseech the Queen
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
15 OTHER SPELLS
1 Bitterblossom
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Nether Void
1 Trinisphere
SIDEBOARD
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Dystopia
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Nether Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Relic of Progenitus

James Everson
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=21410&d=343309&f=LE

23 LANDS
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
7 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
5 CREATURES
4 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit
21 INSTANTS and SORC.
1 Buried Alive
4 Collective Brutality
4 Dark Ritual
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
11 OTHER SPELLS
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Nether Void
SIDEBOARD
1 Bitterblossom
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sinkhole
2 Toxic Deluge

[ronco]

I haven't seen a list with dystopia in a long time. Talk about a blast from the past.

Does it provide the other decks that were top? with chalice, voids and trinisphere, seems like they were really playing anti-storm pox (if i understand the card choices), right?

Also interesting to note as both ran the full set of dark rituals and both ran some sinkholes, something many here have gotten away from a little bit (myself included).

[naynay666]

I haven't seen a list with dystopia in a long time. Talk about a blast from the past.

Does it provide the other decks that were top? with chalice, voids and trinisphere, seems like they were really playing anti-storm pox (if i understand the card choices), right?

Also interesting to note as both ran the full set of dark rituals and both ran some sinkholes, something many here have gotten away from a little bit (myself included).

1st list (Dystopia list) meta 28 peeps
1 D&T
2 Lands
3/4 Depths
3/4 Pox
5/8 4c Control
5/8 Depths
5/8 Grixis Control
5/8 Miracles (R splash for Hydroblast & Pyroblast)

2nd list meta 27 peeps
1 Sneak & Show
2 Miracles
3/4 Depths
3/4 Grixis Delver
5/8 Miracles
5/8 Mono Red Sneak
5/8 Pox
5/8 Yuriko (goofy UB Ninja deck. 20 bodies, 2 bitter blossom, normal tempo blue cards, black removal, OH SNAP 3 Far // Away)

Those are pretty small events. When I first saw them I thought they were bit larger. Kind of hard to make a case for anything with such samples.

These are about as far as you can get from what I am currently playing, but I might try something similar in the near future.

Both are also running 2 Nether Void and no other Legends enchantments.

[TravisParsley339]

Legacy POX deck tech and 6 game series on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA1dD1_rkcg95epAFWlNGih_H3gdoKaas

[naynay666]

Legacy POX deck tech and 6 game series on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA1dD1_rkcg95epAFWlNGih_H3gdoKaas


Thank you for creating this content. 2 To the Slaughter main and the Witchbane Orb in the side are pretty spicy.

[naynay666]

Diabolical Edict got worse.

Liliana’s Triumph.
Instant 1B
Each opponent sacs a dude. If you have a Lili, opponents also discards a card.

Available in full art Open House promo.

Our Queen looks lovely.

[ronco]

Just came here to post that, naynay. I don't run any in my current build but it may be something to consider as a tool.

I may be in the minority, but I really like the promo full art.

[naynay666]

Just came here to post that, naynay. I don't run any in my current build but it may be something to consider as a tool.

I may be in the minority, but I really like the promo full art.

Diabolic Edict main has been pretty fun for me as it helps with Chalice, Thought-Knot, Marit & so forth. I am looking forward to trying out To the Slaughter for a little bit. It's been mentioned here but I never foxed with it before.

But at 3 mana is Hero's Downfall worth considering? Is targeting Jace more reliable than edicting him when a Snapcaster is possible? I suppose Snappy grabs a Counterspell which beats either. Merely destroying Marit Lage doesn't do a whole lot.

Promos are cool beans by me.

[kombatkiwi]

Legacy POX deck tech and 6 game series on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA1dD1_rkcg95epAFWlNGih_H3gdoKaas

I watched the first round against UR, I think you make good videos and the gameplay was ok but that has to be the most hilarious justification for 61 cards I've ever heard

In unrelated news, there is also a 3 mana black PW spoiled

Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage 2B
Leegendary Planeswalker - Davriel
At the beginning of each opponent's upkeep, if that player has 1 or fewer cards in hand, Davriel deals 2 damage to them
-1: Target player discards a card
Starting loyalty: 3

It seems maybe a bit too fragile to play maindeck but definitely looks good as a sb option in creature-light matchups (e.g. Storm, some control decks) especially for the versions of pox that are playing Dark Ritual

[Pittplayer]

I watched the first round against UR, I think you make good videos and the gameplay was ok but that has to be the most hilarious justification for 61 cards I've ever heard

In unrelated news, there is also a 3 mana black PW spoiled

Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage 2B
Leegendary Planeswalker - Davriel
At the beginning of each opponent's upkeep, if that player has 1 or fewer cards in hand, Davriel deals 2 damage to them
-1: Target player discards a card
Starting loyalty: 3

It seems maybe a bit too fragile to play maindeck but definitely looks good as a sb option in creature-light matchups (e.g. Storm, some control decks) especially for the versions of pox that are playing Dark Ritual

This would only be brought in vs Storm if you are intentionaly trying to lose the match. And Liliana of the Veil is better then this card in every single way.

[kombatkiwi]

This would only be brought in vs Storm if you are intentionaly trying to lose the match. And Liliana of the Veil is better then this card in every single way.

It's not a case of "hmm I have 1 more SB slot and I want to beat storm, what is the best option? This card!" because that's obviously not true, you would rather have Trinisphere or Nethervoid or Lost Legacy or whatever.
But it's clearly better vs storm than several cards in most Pox maindecks and it may have additional application in other matchups as well, such that it warrants a sideboard slot

And of course Liliana of the Veil is better than this but you are only allowed to play 4 of them

[Pittplayer]

It's not a case of "hmm I have 1 more SB slot and I want to beat storm, what is the best option? This card!" because that's obviously not true, you would rather have Trinisphere or Nethervoid or Lost Legacy or whatever.
But it's clearly better vs storm than several cards in most Pox maindecks and it may have additional application in other matchups as well, such that it warrants a sideboard slot

And of course Liliana of the Veil is better than this but you are only allowed to play 4 of them

Cemetery Gate is better than Innocent Blood vs Dredge, so obviously we should be sideboarding it. Also Plague Rats is better then Fatal Push vs Storm, so of course we better have that in the sideboard too.

[kombatkiwi]

Cemetery Gate is better than Innocent Blood vs Dredge, so obviously we should be sideboarding it. Also Plague Rats is better then Fatal Push vs Storm, so of course we better have that in the sideboard too.


New card for my pox deck! I run a Bloodghast aggro Pox deck. Cabal Therapist is absolutely going in my sideboard. Vs spell heavy combo, out 4 Innocent Blood, in 4 Cabal Therapist.

So you would prefer something which only attacks for 1, and needs sac fodder to disrupt (which cuts into your own clock), and dies to your own smallpox, rather than 2/3 of a Shrieking Affliction with a mind rot tacked on, got it
I just went and searched the thread and the only list you've posted had 0 Liliana and 2 Noxious Revival which tells me just about everything that I need to know

[naynay666]

Jesus Christ grow up everybody. Drop it and move on.

[kombatkiwi]

Such an idiotic strawman doesn't warrant a serious response, but in case anyone somehow thinks I'm the troll:

For the sake of argument I'll pretend that instead of Cemetery Gate he said Leyline of the Void and that instead of Plague Rats he said Trinisphere

Imagine for whatever reason that rest of a sideboard is these 13 cards:

4 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Collective Brutality
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
1 Underworld Dreams
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Chains of Mephistopheles

And your maindeck is built such that you want to bring in 2 extra cards (in addition to whatever is already in this 13) against both Dredge and Storm.
You could
a) Make a decision on which of the matchups is either going to be more common or which is more difficult, and play 2 Leyline 0 Trinisphere or 2 Trinisphere and 0 Leyline
b) Hedge by playing one copy of each
c) Play two copies of an entirely different card that is solid against both Dredge and Storm but not as good as the 'targeted' cards. (Extirpate perhaps, or Lost Legacy, feel free to suggest your own alternative)

Whether option a, b, or c is correct depends on the maindeck and the metagame and exactly which cards are being considered. My suggestion is that Davriel can is this kind of "option C" kind of card. In the above example you could decide that Davriel is similarly good as a wincon vs control that it can replace Underworld Dreams. Then you have an extra card that fills the role of supplementary discard, so maybe you decide to cut one of the Collective Brutalities. Now you have 3 open SB slots instead of 2 so you can play 2 Leyline and 1 Trinisphere, which might result in an overall better deck than what you had before.

Obviously Davriel has significant flaws:
- Against combo a mindrot split over 2 turns is very mediocre as disruption
- Against control decks if you mindrot it down to 1 loyalty it becomes very vulnerable to e.g. Kolaghans commands or endstep Snapcasters

And I have tried and ultimately rejected similar swiss-army-knife sb cards in the past for doing many things but not being good enough at any of them. (e.g. Barbarian Ring in RUG Delver). So it's possible that Davriel falls into this camp and is not really playable. But a rack effect combined with discard seems like an effect that this deck could take advantage of, and I don't think 2B is an entirely prohibitive manacost, so it seems at least worth discussing



With regards to the Hero's Downfall question, I'm not sure that the instant speed is very useful for this deck, so I think I prefer the Aftermath one from Amonkhet that you can flashback to make a zombie. But whether that is better than To the Slaughter I'm not sure

[Hardcore]

Tl;dr

[Pittplayer]

Tl;dr

I take it your not putting Dav in your pox deck Hardcore?

[naynay666]

Mythic Champion Andrea Mengucci made his second video about Pox.

https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/pox-legacy-channel-mengucci-2/

I haven't watched it yet but the list is fun. Mox Diamonds over Rituals. Tabernacle and Nether Void, but no Chains or Abyss. Only two pieces of GY hate in the board.

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
10 Swamp

4 Mox Diamond
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Phyrexian Totem

1 Nether Spirit

3 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope


Sideboard
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Duress
1 Bitterblossom
1 Lost Legacy
1 Nether Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Tombstalker

[kombatkiwi]

I'm extremely skeptical of Mox Diamond and I think I would cut one of the Wraths for Bridge but I like a lot of the other things

I like 4/4/4/4 Hymn/Sinkhole/Smallpox/Veil
I like 1/1/1 Spirit/Crucible/Last Hope
I like 2 Cursed Scroll

I don't know if 1 Phyrexian Totem is good (compared to e.g. Beseech the Queen) and I would probably cut 1 Swamp for Tomb of Urami or try to get a Cabal Pit in there somewhere

From there you just have to tweak the numbers on TS/Blood and whether you want to sub some of them for like Raven's Crime or Funeral Charm and then I think this list is pretty good (at least the maindeck)
Without having watched the video I would swap Diamond for Rituals though

[Hardcore]

I take it your not putting Dav in your pox deck Hardcore?

I can understand people are looking for something that blue seems to get all the time. The last card we got was just a creature-kill; the Fatal Push.
However black already got a ton of powerful cards. More than blue actually.

As for the new pw it must compete with the ten three-mana spells I already got. Four Pox, four LotV and two LtLH.

[ntropy]

I'm playing in a medium sized tournament tomorrow and none of my decks are feeling terribly well positioned, so I'm going to run an untested build of Loam-Pox for the fun factor. I have lots of experience piloting Mono-Black and G/B versions of Pox, but I've always used Chalice in Loam Pox so I'm not used to having Crop-Rot and Entomb. Does anyone have any experiences to share or comments on the build? I don't have access to any of the Legends enchantments or Tabernacle, sadly, but I do have most other cards that I might want. I'm sure it will be functional, but I'm just fishing for ideas.


2 Bloodghast
2 Vampire Hexmage
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Crop Rotation
2 Entomb
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
2 Pox
4 Mox Diamond
1 Sylvan Library
1 Barren Moor
3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

sideboard

2 Vampire Hexmage
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Trinisphere
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

[FTW]

Mythic Champion Andrea Mengucci made his second video about Pox.

https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/pox-legacy-channel-mengucci-2/

I haven't watched it yet but the list is fun. Mox Diamonds over Rituals. Tabernacle and Nether Void, but no Chains or Abyss. Only two pieces of GY hate in the board.


With that many singletons, I have to ask if this is a paper list and how high is his Dexterity level?

I used to love Mox Diamond in old Pox lists years ago alongside multiple Crucibles and Pox and a high land count. Dark Ritual is card disadvantage anyway, so Diamond setting you back a card isn't a huge penalty. Crucible gets the land back. Mox also let you cheat an extra "land" in play through Big Pox (normally you do everything in 3s).

Mox also enables turn 1 Sinkhole, back when Sinkhole was more commonly played. Sinkhole is much less bad on turn 1. You could Dark Ritual into turn 1 Sinkhole, but it feels like a waste (Dark Rit + 1-for-1 1cmc spell + Sinkhole is spending 3 cards to kill 2 cards). Dark Rit is usually better for a 3-drop (Lili, Crucible) or Hymn. Mox is a smoother way to accelerate Sinkhole and still speed up your big drops. I don't know if it's good in that list, but the card can be good in Pox.

Bontu's seems really bad.

[DungeonShade]

Doing okay with this list (Mono-B) the last two FNM's:

u/r delver 2-1
b/r reanimator 2-0
sneak and show 2-1
u/r delver w/ pteramander 1-2

goblins 2-1
pox 2-1
ANT 2-1
grixis control 2-1

Quite happy with Faerie over Tombstalker at the moment. There are lots of cards I'd like to be playing but there isn't room.

4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Bloodghast

3 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Innocent Blood
3 Shrieking Affliction

2 Faerie Macabre
2 Collective Brutality
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

2 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
12 Swamp

SB:
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Massacre
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Bitterblossom
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Trinisphere
2 Ensnaring Bridge

[non-inflammable]

did anyone try a list with Ammit Eternal?
if they block, they lose 3 life and if they cast spells then cards like the rack and shrieking affliction become better.

and since it's a zombie, play it for zombie shenanigans with gravecrawler and the like?
it's also a demon if you have a reason for demon tribal...

[naynay666]

2 Pox
1 Sylvan Library

Curious to know how the event went. I think I would have swapped the Pox/Library numbers. I don't know what to specifically suggest, but taking advantage of an extended Entomb package would be... advantageous? Maybe Darkblast. Maybe Syphon Life or Worm Harvest. I've never jammed Loampox but those are some traps I would fall for.


...How high is his Dexterity level?

Bontu's seems really bad.

Mythic Champion levels.

Deluge is superior to Bontu's but Bontu's might have a leg up on the 2nd copy of Deluge. The lifeloss hurts a little more in the late game than the mid. Bontu off of a Ritual, Totem or a Diamond feels good.


Doing okay with this list (Mono-B) the last two FNM's

Faerie Macabre is a pretty sweet idea. Tombstalker would have been pretty good in those non-white matches, but BR & Ant probably benefited from maindeck hate.

No sweepers is unusual but glad to hear it worked.

I've also been rocking a maindeck Karakas and love it.

edit: oh yeah, congrats.


did anyone try a list with Ammit Eternal?

That sounds fun to brew but would definitely end up being a different archetype.

Why stop at Demon tribal when you could jam Crocodile?

[ntropy]

Curious to know how the event went. I think I would have swapped the Pox/Library numbers. I don't know what to specifically suggest, but taking advantage of an extended Entomb package would be... advantageous? Maybe Darkblast. Maybe Syphon Life or Worm Harvest. I've never jammed Loampox but those are some traps I would fall for.


I lost to Burn round 1, but Trinisphere was good in both sideboard games, I just punted a block with a factory that I thought I could pump which cost me game 3.

Round 2 I lost to the only Lands player in the room. I punted game 1, then got seriously out ground game 2. They went on to top 8.

Round 3 I lost to Temur Delver. I felt the lack of Innocent blood and sinkhole here. I usually feel good in this matchup but this was hard fought to win game 2, nevermind game 3.

Round 4 I got the bye and was gone in minutes.

Deck seemed functional, I really didn't get to try it against anything tier 1, so who knows. The maindeck Poxen should perhaps be Toxic Deluge, but they both can answer creatures, while Pox can also pressure mana, so I'm trying them out. some of the numbers are very experimental. I too will fall for the traps that are cool silver bullets. Darkblast is pretty good. That's the one I may find room for.

[Pittplayer]

Please wizards of the coast... Please make one card that is an auto include for Pox sometime this century. Looking at you Modern Horizons...

[DungeonShade]

Faerie Macabre is a pretty sweet idea. Tombstalker would have been pretty good in those non-white matches, but BR & Ant probably benefited from maindeck hate.

No sweepers is unusual but glad to hear it worked.

I've also been rocking a maindeck Karakas and love it.

edit: oh yeah, congrats.

Thanks. I really brought Faerie to have a chance game 1 against Lands/Reanimator/maybe Dredge, but uncounterably invalidating Snapcaster is just as good (and a more regular occurrence in those longer games vs Miracles/Grixis). It provides some much needed interaction in these difficult match-ups game 1, and works with LTLH to control the graveyard more or to get on board for any reason. I knew my opponent was on Reanimator and I mulled to 4 game 1 searching for a Faerie with no luck, but fortunately they opened with reanimating Chancellor and I survived. Yes it was also relevant against storm, including the game I lost in which I used it prematurely and was punished.

Before LTLH I would've had some Toxic Deluges main, too many 3 drops now sadly. Got some alternate sweepers in the board.

Edit: The Elderspell looks like the BB kill planeswalker spell I’ve been hoping for, and more! Maybe 2 in the board?

[Pittplayer]

Is Deliver Unto Evil a card that Pox would play?

[Mr. Safety]

Liliana's Triumph and the new Ashiok are both pretty decent for Pox, actually.

[kombatkiwi]

I would be surprised if Deliver Unto Evil is playable (I think you need to be in a perfect situation for it to be better than something like Night's Whisper or Read the Bones)

Davriel is reasonable.

Ashiok might be playable as a SB card. One problem with this card is the strongest application of the "no shuffle" is for disabling fetchlands, but then your opponent just lets their dead fetch sit in play and it nullifies the "sac a land" aspect of smallpox. (Or you're letting them tap it for mana anyway with Urborg). In matchups where both the graveyard hate and the 'no search' effects are relevant beyond fetchlands (Storm, Lands) it could be an okay SB card, especially if you are playing a ritual build that can turn 1 it. I don't think it's worth playing maindeck because it's a 3 drop that doesn't win the game (it arguably does, in a roundabout way) or interact with the board at all.

The 2-for-1 aspect of Liliana's Triumph is really good and it might be a direct replacement for Innocent Blood in some builds/metas

Elderspell is also possibly playable but I think it compares really poorly to spyglass/needle
- If you draw Elderspell while your opponent hasn't found a PW yet then you have to play awkwardly to avoid discarding it to your own Liliana/Smallpox, whereas you can slam needle on Jace at any time
- Needle has more broad application against other non-PW things like Vial and Depths

The EE-land / Explosion Zone also seems good
I'm not sure if it replaces a slot of a land or a spell. Unlike Ratchet Bomb it can't be activated for zero to kill chalice of the void or token swarms but it still seems like a useful tool with Crucible of Worlds and the opportunity cost of including it seems very low

While we're on the topic of colourless lands, Karn's Bastion proliferate helps to tick up Planeswalkers faster but this application is so narrow that it's probably just worse than a swamp

[Hardcore]

Yeah, cool analysis shows the cards are nothing much to write home about. Ashiok is interesting hate that may see play. Perhaps in a Blue moon stompy. It is too expensive though.

[caiomarcos]

Last weekend I was at GP São Paulo and played a bunch of Legacy side events with this Pox list:

MAINDECK
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
10 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

3 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit
1 Tombstalker

3 Dark Ritual
1 Fatal Push
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning

2 Cursed Scroll
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope

SIDEBOARD
2 Engineered Plague
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge

From what I remember, those were my wins:
4 or 5x BR Reanimator
UW control
BUg control(ish)
Burn
Aluren
UB mill

And those were my loses:
Burn
BR Reanimator
UW stoneblade
2x Elves
MonoR Prison
S&T/Dream Hall/Enter the Infinite/Omniscience
D&T

I might be missing a couple of matches, but that was the gist of it.

I was positively impressed with the deck. I put it together the day before going to the event. I have never played with this list before and I can't remember the last time I played Legacy. I have some idea of the archetypes but don't have the knowledge of the card by card, play by play, turn by turn of the format. So obviously I stumbled in the beginning and lost some matches I could've won if played correctly. For example against D&T I chose to Hymn instead of dropping an E. Plague, then the opponent promptly assembled Thalia + Port and I was never able to cast E. Plague again before losing to Recruiter, Thalia, Crusader and Mother of Runes. After a few matches I got a better feeling of the deck and things went more the way one would expect them to go (I think).

The thing I missed the most was one-mana discard. A turn one Thoughtseize is really good and I was wishing I had it every time, so I'd add a couple more Thoughtseize/Duress/IoK to the main. It gives you really important info to decide your game plan (mana denial, apply early pressure, wait with creature removal etc) and can be really disruptive, taking the few threats you have difficulty dealing with.

Cards I felt lacking were mainly Sinkhole and to a lesser extent, Bloodghast.
Sinkhole is a terrible topdeck, and even early game you find yourself having to cast other stuff to deal with threats in play/hand or to try to advance your game plan. Some times, together with Smallpox and Wasteland, it can win games, but those situations are quite rare.
Bloodghast I felt was terrible early game, and by taking the spot of disruption can really make the early to midgame more difficult to traverse. It can be a good option to apply early pressure if it turns out to be this kind of game, and is a reliable finisher, but I'm not sure it is worth the early game clunkyness, and Factories kinda do the same thing and are great early game blockers.

Cards that really shone were Cursed Scroll and Tombstalker. Nobody expects them and they close the game faster than people would guess. I won against reanimator through Iona thanks to Scroll, and won some quick games on the back of an early Tombstalker. Cursed Scrolls dealt more damage than any other win condition. True MVPs.

I really liked the sideboard, I had something for every match-up, Burn being the exception, and every match I drew some of the sideboard, the cards really helped. I didn't really miss anything and I didn't feel there was something irrelevant in the 15.

About some specific match-ups:
-Elves: before playing I thought this would be an easy one, since we have plenty removal, but it turns out elves is way quicker and more resilient than I could imagine. I was able to steal a game on the back of E. Plague, but other than that I don't know how to win this.

-Omni/S&T combo: do we have any chance?

- BR reanimator: with a dozen cards coming in from the sideboard, it gets really, really easy games 2 and 3. Game one is the opposite, really hard, but even that can be won given the right hand. I lost one match because game 3 I, with Leyline in play, thoughtseize'd an irrelevant card and left the Iona there, so next turn I got Reverent Silenced and was facing a Iona with no relevant permanents in play.

- Ux Controlish archetypes: I didn't play that many, but I feel we can out-grind them and win in the long game. I beat BUg by Extracting their lone Life from the Loam and leaving them on topdeck mode.

-Burn: is it really a bad match up? I had only a slight idea, and it felt terrible. Any insight for this? The match I won was because of an early Tombstalker for one game and an opponent mistake for another game (he locked himself with too many Pillars).

Overall, like I said, I really enjoyed the deck. I played to have a good time and had no problem in having a not-as-competitive/tier 1 decklist, but managed to get kinda even, even with no practice or experience.

Please discuss.

[Hardcore]

Thanks for the report! You are right about bloodghasts, they are not for every deck.
You already got 13 win cons so cutting them is no big deal. Letting the Mishra's do more work suggest adding Crucible of Worlds would be a good idea.

[naynay666]

About some specific match-ups: Please discuss.

Elves: E. Plague or the even better Night of Soul's Betrayal is a great start. Once that is on board you really just need to worry about GSZ for Rec Sage. Your two maindeck wraths are super solid, but always be aware of whatever they can bounce with either Wirewood Symbiote and Quirion Ranger. Needle on the Insect is worthwhile.

Show & Tell: We are better against the stock list than the Omniscience heavy or Cunning Wish variants, and luckily I think that community thinks stock is better. Mishra's Factory is a powerhouse that they can't really interact with. Postboard Needles, Bridges and Extraction effects are where I like to be. If you can Surgical away the bodies the cleanup is easy. But be weary of an occasional Jace that floats in and out of popularity.

BR Reanimator: You are already pretty beefy in the postboard games. My favorite thing to do here is stick a Lil Veil quickly and let the babe chill until you need an Edict Iona won't let you cast. Some think Coffin Purge is almost as good as a Surgical in many situations. Can pick off two jawns for two mana or survives being Thoughtseized out.

Ux Control: If they hit all their land drops and come down with a Jace on turn 4 we are in trouble. Very difficult to answer without a Factory already around. Worse yet a lone Factory isn't doing much when it upticks for the same amount. Surgical effects are super solid in this matchup as well. You cast a Hymn and they Brainstorm in response? Surgical (Extirpate is better.) after Brainstorm resolves with Hymn still on the stack and they will lose what they attempted to protect with the BS. Phyrexian Totem is my favorite card in these matchups. Just respect Snappy and/or STP.

Burn: Yeah it's bad. Collective Brutality can do some work here to extend the game a little bit, but won't end it. Back when I was on Sinkhole that was the plan followed by a quick Nether Void but that isn't always ideal. Phyrexian Obliterator is a powerhouse but there is danger in powering it out turn 2 off a Ritual. They can float two mana, sac for Fireblast + any other card and they don't have any permanents left to sacrifice. Worse yet they can then utilize that last mana and drop a Goblin Guide or something silly.

[naynay666]

I had been jamming a manabase of 18-19 Swamps, 1-2 Karakas, 4 Factories and a Maze for a little while now. It feels better against Blood Moon, Back to Basics & Wasteland and I kept a lot of 7 card hands. We jam a lot of BB cards and Basics are all over Legacy right now. That being said I am back on Wastelands/Urborg after a fun run ran into a lot of bad matches and slowed down. List followed by 3 weeks at a weekly.

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Wasteland
11 Swamp

3 Dark Ritual
1 To the Slaughter

4 Thoughtseize
3 Innocent Blood
2 Collective Brutality
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Smallpox
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Beseech the Queen

2 Cursed Scroll
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Phyrexian Totem

4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Karn, Scion of Urza

Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Lost Legacy
1 Bitterblossom
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 The Abyss
1 Nether Void
1 Night of Soul’s Betrayal
1 Phyrexian Obliterator

Yesterday I lost every die roll but won every match.

Rd 1 Nic Fit
Game 1 opp opens with Cabal Therapy naming something blindly that whiffs but he saw my Cursed Scroll, Thoughtseize and Lil’ V (and some lands). I draw a Hymn and open with a Thoughtseize to see Phyrexian Tower, 2x Forest, Scavenging Ooze and Thragtusk. I yoink Scooze to protect Lily. He had no turn two plays and my Hymn stripped his Thragtusk. He played a Liliana of the Veil off of my Urborg, I played a Lily too. A couple upticks later I am able to take his out with CS & Mishra’s Factory. The next turn he Trophied mine. Somewhere in there a Veteran Explorer got us both some lands. I played another and then he top decked one too. He GSZ’d for an E Wit to re-Ass Trophy another Lily. I cast Phyrexian Totem and then IB’d his E Wit. Totem killed Liliana and then my opponent.

-3 Ritual, Karn
+2 Extirpate, Abyss, NoSB.

Game 2 he starts swamp pass. Swamp, TS saw Sylvan Library, Pernicious Deed, Tireless Tracker, Liliana of the Veil, Bayou & Phyrexian Tower. Took Library as it is the only thing I can’t answer. I can’t answer Deed either but I had a fist full of sorceries and walkers that didn’t care about Deed. IB’d his Tracker, Mishra’s Factoried his Lily. I played two Liliana’s over two turns and he scooped to a bad top deck.

Rd 2 Elves
Game 1 opp starts with a Mystic. I play a land and pass. Their turn two taps Forest and Mystic for a Ranger does Ranger stuff drops a Visionary and Hermitage Druid and a Nettle Sentinel. I play another land and a Ratchet Bomb but I don’t feel good about it. My opponent plays a Wirewood Symbiote and shakes all the Elves back and forth for a while before hard casting a Craterhoof Behemoth to swing for 16. I throw a counter on the Bomb as he passes to blow it up on my upkeep. Opponent bounces Visionary with the Symbiote to be left with a Craterhoof. Draw Last Hope and play the Liliana of the Veil to downtick her something fierce. Pass to opponent who replays Visionary and another Sentinel. I play a Liliana, the Last Hope and a Maze of Ith. Uptick that, Maze that. Following up with IB into Smallpox gets the scoop.

-1 Ritual, To the Slaughter
+Abyss, NoSB.

Game 2 the 1/1s for 1 reigned supreme. There were a lot of them and I struggled to keep up. He eventually hit a Glimpse of Nature to draw 3-4 cards with no combo. I hit a desperation Deluge that brought me pretty low but cleared the board. I followed that up with a Curse Scroll which got GSZ’d into Reclamation Sage. Cabal Pitted the Sage and played a Maze. With me at 1 life he dropped 2 bodies. Last Hope killed one pass turn crack fetch for Dryad Arbor.

-3 Ritual, To the Slaughter
+2 E Bridge, Abyss, NoSB.

Game 3 swamp pass forest manadork pass swamp Hymn which got an Abrupt Decay and a Reclamation Sage. Passback drops a land a three 1drops. Turn 4 Deluge, Turn 5 Totem Turn 6 Night of Soul’s Betrayal Turn 7 IB a Scooze and turn on the Totem beats.

Rd 3 Grixis Delver
Game 1 turn 1 Delver flips immediately and hits 5 times. Turn 5 my graveyard was Hymn, Smallpox, Smallpox, Smallpox against his of Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Force, Force. After that it was Forked Bolt to the face and Delver to the dome.

-3 Ritual, Karn
+Chains, Abyss, NoSB, Obliterator.

Game 2 we both mulliganned and I stayed at 6 but my opponent went to either 5 or 4. I kept with some double black, Chains, BBog, WL, MF. Bojuka pass, WL my Bog. Factory pass, USea pass. WL Usea. He misses a drop, I swamp into swings. He missed again, I play another land and a Chains of Mephistopheles that does nothing the entire game. Miss swing miss swing. I draw and play Collective Brutality drains/gains and sees Spell Snare, 2x Pierce, Abrade, Mangler, Young Pizzy, and Delver. Take Abrade. Now we both start missing and swinging throwing Hymn after Lily after Hymn after Lily into my yard. We missed and I swung so much that I stated “man, it’s gonna be really embarrassing when I lose this game somehow.” Enough missing and swinging eluded embarrassment. He lifted his library to show me that he bottomed a Wasteland with the mulligan scry.

Game 3 my opponent played a Delver that didn’t flip but that didn’t stop the brave little scientist from swinging. Tenacity paid off the next turn when he flipped and smashed. Hymn connected but removal got countered while the 3/2 smashed in two more times. One Smallpox got Forced but the next Smallpox resolved. Stuck a Totem that joined a Factory and a Scroll in controlling the board until scoops.

Rd 4 Grixis Delver
Game 1 I kept MF, Bog, TS, 2 Rituals, Karn & Lil Veil. Opponent opened with Usea Delver, pass. Draw 2nd TS, play Bog, pass. Flip, swing, WL my Bog, pass. Draw and play Mishra’s Factory, pass. Rip and drop a swamp. Dark Ritual into Thougtsneeze sees Spell Snare, Brainstorm, Ponder & 2 Fetchelands. Grabbed BStorm, played another TS got Ponder, 2nd Ritual Liliana of the Veil -2. He Countered my Crucible of Worlds but succame to a 2nd Factory with Liliana backup.

-3 Ritual, Karn
+Chains, Abyss, NoSB, Obliterator.

Game 2 I kept a slow 7 that had CoBru(?) Lil V, The Abyss and Phyrexian Obliterator but my opponent mulled on the draw. He hit and protected a Delver while Thoughtseizing my Abyss. Stuck a Lily I didn’t think was going to stick, -2 a Delver. Pitched the Oblit to a +1 and the inability to cast it. I don’t remember too much more other than I think I Deluged something and it ended with a couple Lilianas and a Crucible.

4-0. 13 People

The previous two weeks I ran the same list. These are text messages I edited for your reading pleasure.

Goblins 0-2
Maindeck Ratchet Bomb was great. Other than that they beat me down pretty quickly. All the wrong removal.

White Eldrazi 2-1
Maindeck Ratchet Bomb was great here too. He won the first. I won the next two with Phyrexian Totem + Factory and then Totem + Obliterator. I think this is a good matchup for me.

Jace/Depths/Loam/Bantblade home brew. 2-0
First game was intensely back and forth with a lot happening on the stack. I cast To the Slaughter with Delirium getting a Jace & Marit Lage. Pretty positive that was the best I could ever cast it for and every future casting will having me chasing the dragon (to slaughter it). Fast forward I ultimated The Veil one turn and Last Hope the next. Swung in with a bunch of zombies twice. He didn’t realize I had an Urborg and could have made a Marit Lage.
Game 2 I farted out a Karn super early and he couldn’t keep up.

2-1 Only 8 people. 3 Goblins, 3 Tundras, White Eldrazi & me. It was a weird night.

Week before that… 1-2
2-1 Ant
1-2 Grixis Delver
0-2 Miracles

Wastelands were why I beat Ant (+Extirpate on Usea with one in his hand and a fetch in the field) and a part of why I lost to Miracles. That and Counterbalance into Back to Basics into Jace that I answered into Jace I couldn’t answer.

[Hardcore]

Nice! Phyrexian Totem seems to be the anti -planeswalker tech i need.

[Captain Hammer]

Ashiok and Liliana’s Triump looks like they have potential.

This list just 5-0ed a big mtgo tournament

Pox
Creatures (1)
1 Nether Spirit 1bb 2.00
Planeswalkers (7)
1 Ashiok, Dream Render 1ubub 2.32
4 Liliana of the Veil 1bb 330.28
2 Liliana, the Last Hope 1bb 93.22
Spells (25)
4 Dark Ritual b 1.80
3 Innocent Blood b 0.63
4 Inquisition of Kozilek b 19.96
4 Hymn to Tourach bb 1.96
2 Liliana's Triumph 1b 2.00
4 Sinkhole bb 17.60
4 Smallpox bb 1.20
Artifacts (2)
2 Cursed Scroll 1 20.94
Enchantments (1)
1 Nether Void 3b 812.50
Lands (25)
1 Bojuka Bog 2.24
1 Cabal Pit 0.25
1 Maze of Ith 20.76
4 Mishra's Factory 1.64
9 Swamp 0.00
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale 2,460.98
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth 59.96
4 Wasteland 172.76

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1877983#paper

[kombatkiwi]

This list just 5-0ed a big mtgo tournament


Well it 5-0d a league

I feel like I would rather maindeck the Crucible over the Ashiok but I am curious to know what the player thought of it.
Triumph seems better the more that I think about it. I was valuing the idea of the 2-for-1, but even if your opponent has an empty board just being able to snap it off in their drawstep to take their card like a funeral charm seems pretty good

[Scott]

10K coming off the bench, nbd.

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=30503&iddeck=258801

https://i.imgur.com/7c04sGI.png

[kombatkiwi]

10K coming off the bench, nbd.

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=30503&iddeck=258801

https://i.imgur.com/7c04sGI.png

Candelabra doesn't even do anything in this deck so it's confirmed just a flex
I often wonder the same thing about people playing the other 'useful' legends cards e.g. 1 Abyss (whether they realise it or not)

[naynay666]

Candelabra doesn't even do anything in this deck so it's confirmed just a flex
I often wonder the same thing about people playing the other 'useful' legends cards e.g. 1 Abyss (whether they realise it or not)

Candelabra either doubles the amount of creatures you can Maze or turns a Factory into 2: 3/3 attacking or 4/4 blocking I guess. Still goofy. Almost as goofy as the rest of the sideboard. I wonder what the entry fee was at this 35 person 2K.

edit: And hell yeah 2x Gurmangler.

I am really digging the new Ashiok in the two recently posted lists. Finally once again excited to Sinkhole something.

[Pittplayer]

Force of Despair seems like good sidehoard tech vs Elves, Reanimator, Death and Taxes, and Goblins. Pox decks struggle against swarm decks and combo decks. The instant speed and being free to play could break a elves player combo turn. Thoughts?

[kombatkiwi]

Force of Despair seems like good sidehoard tech vs Elves, Reanimator, Death and Taxes, and Goblins. Pox decks struggle against swarm decks and combo decks. The instant speed and being free to play could break a elves player combo turn. Thoughts?

The exact way this card works makes it an extremely poor fit for pox in my opinion. Mainly because it only hits creatures that entered the battlefield *this turn*, so if you topdeck when you're already behind then it doesn't do anything, and you have no option to cast it for any kind of value so you're stuck between either holding it and waiting for your opponent to play a creature, or discarding it to your Liliana

Then if we assume you start with it in your opening hand every time you can consider the possible matchups where you want this card
- Griselbrand will still draw 7 in response so it's not much different to an innocent blood and just like every other card you could play Iona on black makes this uncastable
- Goblins doesn't really play multiple things in one turn
- Neither does DNT, and in your mono-black removal deck do you really need to force of will a mother of runes or a stoneforge
- Against elves it's okay, you could disrupt a combo turn by killing Nettle Sentinel and Heritage Druid, for example, but this seems like it should already be an easy matchup for Pox

It does seem really good against turn 1 empty the warrens but it seems like there are better options vs basically every other deck where this card would do something (NOSB or engineered plague etc)

[Pittplayer]

Plague Engineer in Pox?

[ronco]

Plague Engineer in Pox?

I'm going to guess not. Engineered Plague is the same cost and more difficult to remove. Plus it doesn't die to your own symmetrical sac effects. I think the "opponents only" clause is probably rare that it matters.

[ronco]

Still hoping for some goodies in MH though!

[Pittplayer]

I'm going to guess not. Engineered Plague is the same cost and more difficult to remove. Plus it doesn't die to your own symmetrical sac effects. I think the "opponents only" clause is probably rare that it matters.

But it can be abused with spells like unearth and can swing in a deck that usally is to slow to capitalize on it's own disruption.

[ronco]

But it can be abused with spells like unearth and can swing in a deck that usally is to slow to capitalize on it's own disruption.

That's fair. I don't think ill pick up any but if people start seeing results i'm happy to say i was wrong on it.

[PirateKing]

But it can be abused with spells like unearth and can swing in a deck that usally is to slow to capitalize on it's own disruption.

I saw this card as an all-star in something like Deadguy, but not in Pox. The glory of our disruption is we break the symmetry of our effects by playing a different game than our opponents. Innocent Blood only hitting them is critical to Pox. When on our side we either sacrifice nothing or a Nether Spirit or whatever, that's the value. It gets messy once you're holding back a Smallpox because you don't want to lose your creature. That's the position you're trying to navigate them into, not the other way around.

That said I agree with ronco, I'll shut up to some results. Happily so.

[Pittplayer]

I saw this card as an all-star in something like Deadguy, but not in Pox. The glory of our disruption is we break the symmetry of our effects by playing a different game than our opponents. Innocent Blood only hitting them is critical to Pox. When on our side we either sacrifice nothing or a Nether Spirit or whatever, that's the value. It gets messy once you're holding back a Smallpox because you don't want to lose your creature. That's the position you're trying to navigate them into, not the other way around.

That said I agree with ronco, I'll shut up to some results. Happily so.

I run a aggro bloodghast build with unearths. So it fits in my deck. I've been playing Pox decks since Smallpox was unleashed, I understand the Pox playstyle. Against elves and tokens, innocent Blood loses value in the long game. In comes Plague Engineer.

[ronco]

I run a aggro bloodghast build with unearths. So it fits in my deck. I've been playing Pox decks since Smallpox was unleashed, I understand the Pox playstyle. Against elves and tokens, innocent Blood loses value in the long game. In comes Plague Engineer.

What kind of things do you/others run in unearth pox? Eternal witness?

[Mr. Safety]

I haven't used Unearth in a pox deck before, but Unearth + Witness is pure gas when I've done it in rock-style decks. I think there are other options as well, like Vampire Hexmage and Dark Confidant. Where it only costs B it's realistic to just grab a Confidant that got caught up in a Liliana activation or Smallpox. Plague Engineer seems almost worth it, but I think Engineered Plague generally speaking is better as a sideboard card due to invalidating creature removal.

[amjw]

out of interest, what do you think would push pox to a really competitive deck? it seems to hold it's own but not enough to really be represented in the top 8's a lot...

[Mr. Safety]

out of interest, what do you think would push pox to a really competitive deck? it seems to hold it's own but not enough to really be represented in the top 8's a lot...

A playable artifact that generates card filtering/quality, similar to what Sensei's Divining Top did. Something slightly less powerful, like a 1-drop that taps to scry 1 and sacrifices to draw 1, or a 2 drop that costs 1 to scry 2 and sacrifices to draw 1.

[Pittplayer]

I haven't used Unearth in a pox deck before, but Unearth + Witness is pure gas when I've done it in rock-style decks. I think there are other options as well, like Vampire Hexmage and Dark Confidant. Where it only costs B it's realistic to just grab a Confidant that got caught up in a Liliana activation or Smallpox. Plague Engineer seems almost worth it, but I think Engineered Plague generally speaking is better as a sideboard card due to invalidating creature removal.

Right now I'm running a b/u Pox deck with Bloodghast, Snapcaster Mage, and Spellseeker. Unearth gets all kinds of value in this deck. I'm testing Plague Engineer in the sb right now and so far I'm loving it.

[Mr. Safety]

Right now I'm running a b/u Pox deck with Bloodghast, Snapcaster Mage, and Spellseeker. Unearth gets all kinds of value in this deck. I'm testing Plague Engineer in the sb right now and so far I'm loving it.

Sounds cool! There was someone messing with a B/u pox deck recently playing BStorms and Jaces, which I thought was very good. It solved the issues of card filtering but added a whole new level of mana instability. And it needed to dedicate slots to mana-fixing (Talismans I think.) I just love the idea of playing Brainstorm and Jace alongside pox effects, it just piles on card advantage like a dump truck.

The Spellseeker/Unearth synergy is pretty hot, honestly. It allows for some pretty cool toolboxing.

[Pittplayer]

Sounds cool! There was someone messing with a B/u pox deck recently playing BStorms and Jaces, which I thought was very good. It solved the issues of card filtering but added a whole new level of mana instability. And it needed to dedicate slots to mana-fixing (Talismans I think.) I just love the idea of playing Brainstorm and Jace alongside pox effects, it just piles on card advantage like a dump truck.

The Spellseeker/Unearth synergy is pretty hot, honestly. It allows for some pretty cool toolboxing.

Brainstorm and Jace do not belong on Pox. 1. Pox wants to play it's hand out, not wait back on mana to brainstorm. Ponder is good in Pox, Brainstorm is not. 2. Jace is unplayable in Pox. You need your Mana curve to top out at 3 to allow you to pox and waste at will. Jace would just sit dead in your hand. Also Force of Will is a sideboard card in b/u Pox, board out Innocent Blood board in Force of Will against fast combo.

[Mr. Safety]

Brainstorm and Jace do not belong on Pox. 1. Pox wants to play it's hand out, not wait back on mana to brainstorm. Ponder is good in Pox, Brainstorm is not. 2. Jace is unplayable in Pox. You need your Mana curve to top out at 3 to allow you to pox and waste at will. Jace would just sit dead in your hand. Also Force of Will is a sideboard card in b/u Pox, board out Innocent Blood board in Force of Will against fast combo.

It may have been Ponder, especially considering the lack of fetchlands. It didn't get much traction. Without fetchlands Brainstorm is definitely sub-par.

I think with Crucible of Worlds 4-drops, including Jace, are just fine in Pox. Nether Void, the Abyss, and Night of Soul's Betrayal all see play occasionally in Pox. Jace provides a win condition and all but eliminates your opponent top-decking out of your soft lock, which is a classic problem for Pox, or it can just feed you the best card in your top 3 every turn if you need gas. In theory it's incredible, but as you say in practice it wasn't performing. The mana rocks actually helped with stability slightly because Talismans don't get affected by Smallpox. I'm sure it would put up numbers if it was indeed good. There was nowhere near enough blue to enable Forces IIRC.

[ronco]

I think aslidsiksoraksi was the last to post about UB pox. I don't recall what ever happened with it, but I haven't seen anyone else post about it around here.

[Mr. Safety]

I think aslidsiksoraksi was the last to post about UB pox. I don't recall what ever happened with it, but I haven't seen anyone else post about it around here.

Thanks, that's the username I couldn't remember.

[kombatkiwi]

JVP is the best reason to splash U in this deck

[Pittplayer]

It may have been Ponder, especially considering the lack of fetchlands. It didn't get much traction. Without fetchlands Brainstorm is definitely sub-par.

I think with Crucible of Worlds 4-drops, including Jace, are just fine in Pox. Nether Void, the Abyss, and Night of Soul's Betrayal all see play occasionally in Pox. Jace provides a win condition and all but eliminates your opponent top-decking out of your soft lock, which is a classic problem for Pox, or it can just feed you the best card in your top 3 every turn if you need gas. In theory it's incredible, but as you say in practice it wasn't performing. The mana rocks actually helped with stability slightly because Talismans don't get affected by Smallpox. I'm sure it would put up numbers if it was indeed good. There was nowhere near enough blue to enable Forces IIRC.

I did say I was running Bloodghast in my b/u deck so obviously I would be running fetches. And I have never seen a 4 drop heavy pox deck work. But most people play Pox as a slow control deck. I play it as a tempo deck. I'm getting beats in quick and taking advantage of the disruption, while everyone else tries to hard lock the game with their slow pox decks. I just have a different playstyle then most pox players. And i have been brewing and playing Pox since Time Spiral, I have played all variations and styles. My b/u list may be the best one I have played so far. Today I played a mini tourney. I went 2-0 vs High Tide, 2-0 vs Delver, 0-2 vs Dredge, and 2-1 vs Land Tax Parfait.

[ronco]

Ponder is good in Pox, Brainstorm is not.

Why is that?

[Mr. Safety]

Why is that?

Fetchlands fuel Brainstorm and Pox doesn't usually have enough room to get enough (7-8) to make Brainstorm reliable. There aren't other shuffle effects to augment it either, unless you build them into it (like Expedition Map.) Ponder has it's own shuffle effect if the top 3 cards are bad.

[Pittplayer]

Fetchlands fuel Brainstorm and Pox doesn't usually have enough room to get enough (7-8) to make Brainstorm reliable. There aren't other shuffle effects to augment it either, unless you build them into it (like Expedition Map.) Ponder has it's own shuffle effect if the top 3 cards are bad.

Wrong. You don't play Brainstorm because Pox is a active, not a reactive deck. T1 you rather play discard or Innocent Blood. T2 Hymn or Pox. T3 either waste and 2 Mana spell or drop threats. At what point while playing Pox do you hold up mana for a instant speed Brainstorm? You dont. You do use Ponder late game to find more discard vs combo, more lands if need be etc. Pox can run plenty of fetches, but if you are casting your cantrip at sorcery speed, and usually late game with a low hand count, Ponder is the better card.

[ronco]

Another 1 mana removal option:
Defile - B - Instant
Target creature gets -1/-1 until EOT for each swamp you control.
http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Defile1-216x300.jpg?x96163
Not sure it will replace anything but i guess some lists might like it. Work well with urborg/duals but has the downside of targeting.

[ronco]

Depending on how fast you can get hellbent (or discard ghasts/dredgeable things):
https://external-preview.redd.it/84nhrcYsZofQQHMV4Q8CMuxHuethNj9L5nxV7nxFFyY.png?auto=webp&669f8e42

For those who may be at work:
Mind Rake - 2B - Sorcery
Target player discards 2 cards.
Overload 1B - pay 1B and all players discard 2 cards instead.

[Pittplayer]

Depending on how fast you can get hellbent (or discard ghasts/dredgeable things):
https://external-preview.redd.it/84nhrcYsZofQQHMV4Q8CMuxHuethNj9L5nxV7nxFFyY.png?auto=webp&669f8e42

For those who may be at work:
Mind Rake - 2B - Sorcery
Target player discards 2 cards.
Overload 1B - pay 1B and all players discard 2 cards instead.

In what world would you want to pay 5 mana to make all players discard 2 cards?

[LOLWut]

In what world would you want to pay 5 mana to make all players discard 2 cards?

Every other post of yours is you condescendingly telling someone how cards work and being wrong lol

Overload is an alternate cost. It would cost :1::b: in total.


Bloodsun does not work the way you think it does.

[Pittplayer]

In what world would you want to pay 5 mana to make all players discard 2 cards?

Yep. Somehow I forgot how overload works. I concede this one. I guess I just never saw a overload card where the alt cost is actually cheaper then the regular cost and misread what the card does. I can see how the card may have a use in a Pox deck. ( It's not bad to be wrong about something, it is wrong to not admit it when you are. I was wrong. )

[ronco]

Yep. Somehow I forgot how overload works. I concede this one. I guess I just never saw a overload card where the alt cost is actually cheaper then the regular cost and misread what the card does. I can see how the card may have a use in a Pox deck. ( It's not bad to be wrong about something, it is wrong to not admit it when you are. I was wrong. )

I actually first thought of modern when I saw that card since, I think, the lists I've seen are white/black with lingering souls to go with ghasts thus would be more apt to discard their own cards. But, as it turns out, there are a lot more varieties to pox lists (ahem, unearth/snappy builds) than I knew of so who knows if it will stick anywhere.

[ronco]

Some reports for the hell of it.

Aggro pox list:
Main: 60

4 Pox
4 SmallPox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Bloodghast
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Shrieking Aflliction
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Gurmag Angler
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
11 Swamp

Side: 15


4 Leyline of the Void
2 Bitterblossom
2 Pithing Needle
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Lost Legacy


Tubro Town events (one-off best of 3):
Aggro pox (me) Vs Oscar from Phoenix on "15 post planeswalker" (basically big mana deck and karns, ugins, the lattice lock).
G1 on the draw: Had strong disruption from a hymn, then a wasteland, then a small pox. Dropped a gurmag, then he played a new karn to wish for an ensnaring bridge. IoK takes care of that next turn and he scoops.

G2 on the draw: I board in needles for his PWs, I see 1 in my opneing 7 and first draw is a second one. unfortinately, he T1 a chalice on 1 so the dream is crushed. I had tons of pox effects but he kept pooping out karnstruct tokens. I can get him down to 3 from poxing and ghasts before he starts glimmerposting back and eventually he gets the lattice lock.

G3 on the play: He curves nicely with a sol land -> grim monolith. I small pox t2 to rid him of the sol land, but he has more. Gets his karn/lattice lock on t 3 or 4. I just don't have anything for artifacts/instant PW removal in my build.

Then went over and played his friend (whose name i didn't get) that has been running vial goblins for a long time it sounds.
G1 he gets vials and goblins does his thing. Krenko gets out and starts making friends and I am quickly overrun, even with big poxes.
G2 I realize the error of my ways with no wraths or targeted removal in main or board. I get 3 small poxes early to slow him down, but eventually I tap out to piledriver.

Played Seth on grixis death's shadow. No notes for G1, but small pox, wastelands, and gasts get me there. I suspect he is on death's shadow by the shocks and street wraith but next saw it. G2 he gets me with the shadow. G3 we have an epic battle. He goes down quick and drops a decent sized early shadow (something like fetch - shocks, street wraith cycle x2, then thoughtsieze me on t1). I get him hellbent through discard to make sure he is free of counters then big pox away his shadow and most of his life. Drop a lili to get a soft lock going then follow up with a gurmangler for the win.


Then did the legacy double up event, same Aggro pox.
R1 against Austin on B/R goblins (boooo).
R1G1, I am on the draw. He mulls to 6, then drops a t1 vial. I follow up by IoK his lackey. T2 I hymn him to get the matron and a mountain (which is not needed with the vials really). I get him hellbent and drop an affliction to start taking him down. I drop a second one so he starts holding cards. I big pox him and that gets me there on the following upkeep. I only took fetch and pox damage this game.
R1G2 I am on the draw. He T1 lackey which I don't have an innocent blood for. After lacking pokes me in the eye he drops a Krenko and I can't keep up from there.
R1G3 I am on the play. Similar to game 2, he t1 lackey but doesn't get his krenko until T3. I get him helbent and slow the game down a little bit for my affliction, but its not enough and Krenko's friends finish me off.

1-2 games, 0-1 rounds.

R2 against Tyler on RUG Delver/Canadian Threshold.
R2G1 I am on the draw. Turn one THE GOOSE IS LOOSE!. My innocent blood gets dazed. My next one gets spell pierced. I deal with the goose on T3 with a small pox, discarding ghast. I floated mana for my affliction. He hold cards so I IoK a counter then drop an angler. He deploys a TNN to stop him but I innocent blood it away, sacing my ghast. GG.
R2G2 I am on the draw. Unfortunately for Tyler I pretty much had a dream god hand. 2 swamps, 2 IoK, 2 hymn and a lili. My next 4 cards were 2 more hymns, affliction, and an angler. He scooped to that.

3-2 games, 1-1 rounds.
R3 was against an arclight deck, but we ID to secure prize tickets.

----------------------

BG Loam pox. I cheated and ran AruSulato's list from here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25713-Primer-Deck-Pox&p=1062340&viewfull=1#post1062340
with a few minor adjustments (4 bayou, +1 scrubland, +1 hymn, -1 duress, -1 GB fastland, -1 swamp). I've never played a loam deck so I wasn't sure how it would go. Tried to get a practice round in and it seemed straightforward (if a bit slower of a win con compared to aggro pox).
List:
Spells

4x ENTOMB
2x LIFE FROM THE LOAM
2x LILIANA OF THE VEIL
3x SMALLPOX
2x FATAL PUSH
3x ABRUPT DECAY
1x ASSASSIN TROPHY
1x MAELSTROM PULSE
1x GO FOR THE THROAT
4x HYMN TO TOURACH
1x INQUISITION OF KOZILEK
1x LINGERING SOULS
1x NETHER SPIRIT
1x GOLGARI BROWNSCALE
2x MOX DIAMOND
1x SYLVAN LIBRARY
1x PERNICIOUS DEED
1x DARKBLAST
3x INNOCENT BLOOD
4x VERDANT CATACOMBS
4x BAYOU
1x Scrubland
1x WOODLAND CEMETERY
3x URBORG, tomb of Yawgmoth
4x BARREN MOOR
1x SWAMP
1x FOREST
1x CABAL PIT
4x WASTELAND
1x MISHRA'S FACTORY

Sideboard

2x SADISTIC SACRAMENT
2x ENGINEERED PLAGUE
1x CHOKE
1x LEYLINE OF THE VOID
1x COFFIN PURGE
1x KROSAN RECLAMATION
2x Surgical
1x GOLGARI CHARM
1x RAVEN'S CRIME
1x AKUTA, BORN OF ASHES
1x DAMPING SPHERE
1x BONTU'S LAST RECKONING


After the beatings received from goblins yesterday I wanted to see if this would fare any better. Spoiler: i didn't face any goblins.

Legacy double up event:
R1G1 vs Zack from Jonseborogh, Arkansas. He was on UR Delver with Arcanist. I am on the play. Opening hand seems ok but has a lot of mana. He lands an early delver that I innocent blood away. T2 wasteland his volc, T3 I hymn, which he forces exiling a ponder (must have had something important in there). Next turn TNN. Followed up with a YP that I fatally push off the ship. I flood out the rest of the game and My nemesis lives up to its name.

R1G2 I bring in engineered plauges from the board, a choke, and golgari charm. Doesn't matter, I see a cabal pit and two colorless lands in my hand and I keep it (mistake). He wastelands the pit and I don't draw enough colored mana for my spells. easy game for him. I think a protected delver got me here.
0-2 games, 0-1 round.

R2G1 vs Enchantress (I didn't write down his name, but he was from Mississippi). I am on the play. I fetch and pass to him, he goes forest ->wild growth. I drop another fetch and wait for him to play his enchantress which I quickly I blood away, and then small pox the next one and his land. I get him landless with only a mirri's guile out. I think about landing a threat or dealing with the guile (he missed his land drop after one guile peek), and decide its best not to let him back in and abruptly decay the guile. He scoops after that.
R2G2, My sideboard was similar to game 1. He helps me out by dropping a sylvan library and taking 8 off the first activation. I drop a factory to apply some pressure. He lands some elephant grasses to buy him time but they eventually can't be paid for. I think i small pox an enchantress this game but factor gets me in there.

2-2 games, 1-1 rounds. ID round 3 to get enough tickets for a box and some sleeves.

I definitely need practice and will tailor the BG pox to my liking. I like that is has a little more legs in the longer game. I just need to get better at playing it.

[ronco]

2 other Aggro pox games.

played another version of the Karn/lattice deck. Went 0-2 but did get to ultimate lili last Hope and after one swing he managed to pull big Ugin to -x every turn (x at 0) to exile my tokens each turn.
And played a pox mirror and went 2-0. His list was more traditional (sinkhole, cursed scroll) but with new davriel and ashiook. We both get the game to little quickly but my affliction and ghasts work faster than davriel. Game 2 I get both lili going and an affliction again for the win. He was self mulling with ashiook to look for a gurmag to return with lili last hope that he never saw. Sounded a little inefficient but maybe there was something else going on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ronco]

Sorry for all the posts, found one more round to report on with aggro pox.
R1G1 - dude plays 2 plains, I hymn 2 plains out of his hand, then i ask if he has anything but plains in his deck. Says no, then drops. Apparently he just wanted the entry prize.
R2G1 - Christopher on DnT. I am on the play. I IoK and he has 2 vials and a mom, I think i took the mom becuase one vial is too many so it doens't matter. In hingsight maybe that was the wrong thought process. I hymn next turn as he starts upticking vials and i get a palace jailer and flickerwisp. I wasteland and small pox all his lands and get him hellbent and start putting pressure on him. He eventually draws a SFM and fetches up a jitte. Then gets a recruiter and a thalia next turn. I can only big pox and eventually lose.
In come plauges and needles.
R2G2. I get a t1 needle on vial, he drops a mom. I hymn some things out of his hand. He drops a port and a Jitte. I follow up with 2 shrieking afflictions then a lili next turn to start locking. He gets a batterskull and has enough to dispose of liliana, but I can deal with the germ token. He doesn't have enough land to bounce/equip but does have enough for a SoFi. I get an engineering plague on humans (not sure if the right move or not) and then second needle on the SoFi. We go back and forth and i get him to 9 from afflictions but then he managed to top deck better than I and gets his batterskull going again. Gets a palace jailer out and becomes the monarch and out draws me. This was a very long game.

0-2 games, 1-1 matches (if you can even count the first one)

[Hardcore]

Thanks for those reports!

I run a similar list, but I always include four Engineered Plague in the sb. Now, with MH, I will also add two - three Dead of Winter in main.

[Pittplayer]

Thanks for those reports!

I run a similar list, but I always include four Engineered Plague in the sb. Now, with MH, I will also add two - three Dead of Winter in main.

I was also thinking of testing Dead Of Winter. If we are going snow lands, is Scrying Sheets worth a look? I wish there was more payoff for using snow lands.

[kombatkiwi]

- The BG deck definitely wants to play Blast Zone and most likely the new BG Horizon canopy
- I think mono B versions almost certainly should play blast zone and there is a chance even monoblack versions can play some number of the black horizon canopies, especially if you have crucible
- I don't understand the appeal of Dead of Winter, I think there is a very narrow situation where this card is better than Drown in Sorrow / Cry of the Carnarium (Probably don't want that one in Netherspirit/Bloodghast deck) / Bontus Reckoning / Toxic Deluge. The fact it doesn't count your non-snow swamps makes it not combo well with Urborg and we have no Snow creatures to take advantage of the asymmetry.

Like if you're only killing some small creatures then Deluge doesn't cost very much life and if you need to kill some big creatures well at least Deluge gives you the option whereas dread of winter probably does nothing? It seems very unlikely that you're going to be able to Dread of Winter e.g. Gurmag Angler in most situations and the utility lands are so important that I don't think it's going to be worth cutting them for more basic swamps. Scrying Sheets: I think it costs too much mana and will whiff too much of the time, I think would rather have a card with a consistent payoff like Geier Reach sanitarium / Minamo but idk if this is even good enough

The G1 of ronco vs the post PW deck is an example of why I think I like ritual now:
When you are casting smallpox with no Crucible/PW in play you aren't really advancing your gameplan in a meaningful way and if you are using smallpox just as LD and not even killing a creature then it's card disadvantage for you, and the opponent can easily topdeck their way out of it. When you have a Davriel or especially Crucible/Liliana in play then you are getting ahead while you trade resources with smallpox and I think this is very important

Regarding FoW on Hymn exiling Ponder:
It's usually correct to FoW Hymns because
1. You're going to be discarding 2 even if you let hymn resolve so you might as well get some control over what you're getting rid of
2. If you already get 2-for-1ed by Hymn discarding 2 non-FoW cards and then you end up keeping FoW in your hand, then your only option to use FoW involves 2-for-1ing yourself AGAIN and this is usually backbreaking (especially vs Pox)

I like the decay on the mirris guile because if he missed a land drop then you know hes going to also miss it for the next 2 turns at least

[ronco]

The G1 of ronco vs the post PW deck is an example of why I think I like ritual now:
When you are casting smallpox with no Crucible/PW in play you aren't really advancing your gameplan in a meaningful way and if you are using smallpox just as LD and not even killing a creature then it's card disadvantage for you, and the opponent can easily topdeck their way out of it. When you have a Davriel or especially Crucible/Liliana in play then you are getting ahead while you trade resources with smallpox and I think this is very important

Regarding FoW on Hymn exiling Ponder:
It's usually correct to FoW Hymns because
1. You're going to be discarding 2 even if you let hymn resolve so you might as well get some control over what you're getting rid of
2. If you already get 2-for-1ed by Hymn discarding 2 non-FoW cards and then you end up keeping FoW in your hand, then your only option to use FoW involves 2-for-1ing yourself AGAIN and this is usually backbreaking (especially vs Pox)

I like the decay on the mirris guile because if he missed a land drop then you know hes going to also miss it for the next 2 turns at least

Thanks for the feedback. FoW the hymn makes sense looked at it that way.
I picked up a set of blast zones after the prerelease as many people at my lgs weren't terribly interested in them. I haven't tested them yet but I definitely think they could have a place.

Question - and its probably a game state situation - but do you try to stick a lili first or pox first to clear the way? I had been playing SP first to generally weaken my opponent and then drop lili when the coast is somewhat clear to get the soft lock going. Is this the correct way to approach it? Some times I was aggressive with the poxes when my opponent was on sol lands to try to disrupt the ramp, but against more fair decks I still was playing smallpox early to keep the game state slow. Maybe i am not playing that right.

[kombatkiwi]

Thanks for the feedback. FoW the hymn makes sense looked at it that way.
I picked up a set of blast zones after the prerelease as many people at my lgs weren't terribly interested in them. I haven't tested them yet but I definitely think they could have a place.

Question - and its probably a game state situation - but do you try to stick a lili first or pox first to clear the way? I had been playing SP first to generally weaken my opponent and then drop lili when the coast is somewhat clear to get the soft lock going. Is this the correct way to approach it? Some times I was aggressive with the poxes when my opponent was on sol lands to try to disrupt the ramp, but against more fair decks I still was playing smallpox early to keep the game state slow. Maybe i am not playing that right.

Yeah its difficult to answer this as a generalisation but when not under any immediate pressure I will usually try to wait. If you smallpox on 2 lands going down to 1 land then you need 2 more lands before you can cast your Liliana again. Additionally if you cast Smallpox and your opponent has no creature then they lose 1 land and 1 hand and you lose 1 land and 1 hand AND the Smallpox. Without anything to gain incremental advantage in the meantime you won't win long-term if you make too many of these exchanges.

There are some factors that mitigate this:
- You can have (or topdeck) a Ritual to deploy Liliana on a boardstate where you have only 1-2 lands
- If your opponent can't cast anything because you smallpox their land away, and you think they don't have any additional land drops in hand, then if you manascrew both players you will generally topdeck out of it more successfully because the Pox deck probably has a much higher proportion of lands in it

[ronco]

New spoilers:
For decks running edits/2 mana removal, if you are ok with sorcery speed there is now conditional exile removal, with possible for bonus:

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Legions-End-265x370.png?x96163

I don't think its an auto include, but some versions of the deck might be interested?

edit:
Since the image didn't seem to load properly:
Legion's End - 1B - Sorcery
Exile target creature an opponent controls with CMC 2 or less and all other creatures that player controls with the same name. They reveal their hand and exile all cards with the same name and exile all cards in their graveyard with that name as well.

[OmniStrata]

Rotting Regisaur {2}{B}

Creature — Zombie Dinosaur

7/6

At the beginning of your upkeep, discard a card.

Definitely need to test as sideboard vs. decks light on removal (combo). 3 turn clock for 3 cmc? :eek:

[Pittplayer]

Rotting Regisaur {2}{B}

Creature — Zombie Dinosaur

7/6

At the beginning of your upkeep, discard a card.

Definitely need to test as sideboard vs. decks light on removal (combo). 3 turn clock for 3 cmc? :eek:

In my testing, pox decks running dark ritual love this card.

[naynay666]

Fellow Poxers,

Connor Dedrich Top 8'ed the Legacy MCQ at MagicFest Seattle.

9 x Snow-Covered Swamps
4 x Wasteland
4 x Mishra’s Factory
4 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 x Dakmor Salvage
1 x Cabal Pit
1 x Bojuka Bog
1 x Blast Zone

1 x Nether Spirit

3 x Thoughtseize
3 x Innocent Blood
2 x Inquisition of Kozilek
1 x Collective Brutality
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Smallpox
1 x Toxic Deluge

4 x Dark Ritual
1 x Fatal Push
1 x Darkblast
1 x Liliana’s Triumph

4 x Liliana of the Veil
3 x Cursed Scroll
1 x Crucible of Worlds
1 x Bitterblossom

Sideboard
4 x Surgical Extraction
1 x Bontu’s Last Reckoning
1 x Lost Legacy
1 x Thoughtseize
1 x Bitterblossom
2 x Engineered Plague
4 x Sphere of Resistance
1 x Dystopia

Sphere of Resistance and Dystopia in the board are pretty sweet. Also stoked on the lack of Legends cards. I have the Enchantments but I think the price of those 3 keeps people away from playing Pox. Finally some proof that they aren't necessary to compete.

[kombatkiwi]

Yeah this list looks pretty good
I saw some comments in some corners of the internet saying that it wasn't innovative or teched-out enough but it seems mostly solid
Unsure about 0 Sinkhole and I think there are some choices that can be optimized (like 0 copies of Last Hope in the 75 but he somehow found room for 2 Plague and Darkblast, seems suspect)
I also think 3 Scroll is too many, I like 2.

But I like the no-Legends no-Ashiok choice

7/6 Dino makes no sense in pox lol. As like a HERPPP 3-turn clock against Storm off a ritual I could MAYBE see it but it's definitely sideboard-only.
The exile removal is a potential option but I don't think there is anything in the format that warrants playing it at the moment

[bruizar]

I'm working on this Orzhov land destruction planeswalker build. Still very experimental.


4x Flagstones of Trokair
4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
4x Wasteland
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Swamp
2x Silent Clearing

4x Chrome Mox
4x Thoughtseize
4x Encroach
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Ashiok, Dream Render
4x Liliana of the Veil
3x Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
1x Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
1x Oath of Kaya
3x Kaya’s Guile
2x Vindicate

[Pittplayer]

I was so hoping to see a pox variant in Modern Horizons. What kind of card would you like to see printed that would mainly benefit legacy Pox decks?

[ronco]

I was so hoping to see a pox variant in Modern Horizons. What kind of card would you like to see printed that would mainly benefit legacy Pox decks?

I can't think of anything specific per se, but:
-something that helps close the game out quicker once the soft lock is established (obviously for non-aggro pox builds).
-or perhaps a real strong lock piece that buys us time to naturally draw as deep as we need to for the win, that aren't $$$ (chains/void).
-related to the above: Something to help win the top deck battles.
-Card filtering for mono/mostly black builds.


I feel like the disruption available is pretty strong, it's just getting across the finish line that I feel like I have trouble with most of the time. If I recall you play a blue splash so the above may not apply to your needs.

Ah, something specific:
-a less $ expensive tabby. lol.

[OmniStrata]

Ah, something specific:
-a less $ expensive tabby. lol.

This would be the game changer, a Land that reliably defends you against a horde that's not a mortgage payment...:eek:

But on a more serious note, I'll always miss Chimeric Idol. If they could print a Pox dodging beat-stick that cost 0 to kill with, Life would be good. Mishra's costs 2 and Totem, like Cursed scroll costs 3. I think what hurts us the most are the attack requirements to balance our win cons. If only the hidden enchantments had an "undo" trigger.

[Megadeus]

This would be the game changer, a Land that reliably defends you against a horde that's not a mortgage payment...:eek:

But on a more serious note, I'll always miss Chimeric Idol. If they could print a Pox dodging beat-stick that cost 0 to kill with, Life would be good. Mishra's costs 2 and Totem, like Cursed scroll costs 3. I think what hurts us the most are the attack requirements to balance our win cons. If only the hidden enchantments had an "undo" trigger.

If only there were a black Myth Realized

[ronco]

This would be the game changer, a Land that reliably defends you against a horde that's not a mortgage payment...:eek:

But on a more serious note, I'll always miss Chimeric Idol. If they could print a Pox dodging beat-stick that cost 0 to kill with, Life would be good. Mishra's costs 2 and Totem, like Cursed scroll costs 3. I think what hurts us the most are the attack requirements to balance our win cons. If only the hidden enchantments had an "undo" trigger.

I feel like its a green card and only for opponent's spells, but isn't there something that says "spells/abilities controlled by your opponent cant cause you to sacrifice permanents?" Or maybe it was specific to that card. I wonder if there is a way they could work that on to a black creature. Ie, :

Proud Zombie - BBB
This creature can't be sacrificed.
2/2

(or something).

Edit - I'd even take a "fixed" chains like Narset or something where : "If an opponent would draw a card except for the first card drawn each turn, that player instead draws a card then discards a card." Not functionally identical, but for the most part it is. Plus it reads much easier lol. Heck that could be a PW static ability. Lili of the chains, anyone?

[Erdvermampfa]

This would be the game changer, a Land that reliably defends you against a horde that's not a mortgage payment...:eek:

But on a more serious note, I'll always miss Chimeric Idol. If they could print a Pox dodging beat-stick that cost 0 to kill with, Life would be good. Mishra's costs 2 and Totem, like Cursed scroll costs 3. I think what hurts us the most are the attack requirements to balance our win cons. If only the hidden enchantments had an "undo" trigger.

Haunted Plate Mail

[Mr. Safety]

Pox needs a colorless or black Sensei's Divining Top effect to be truly competitive. Otherwise, it's just a metagame deck. Curiously, with all of the delver variants showing up, Pox seems to be a decent choice currently.

We would need something like:

Researcher's Index {2}

tap: draw a card and put Researcher's Index on top of your library

1: Look at the top 2 cards of your library and put them back in any order

This would be fine, not broken enough to enable counterbalance but more than good enough in a Pox deck.

EDIT: I think a green splash for Sylvan Library, Loam, Trophy, and Decay would be decent as well.

[Erdvermampfa]

Pox needs a colorless or black Sensei's Divining Top effect to be truly competitive. Otherwise, it's just a metagame deck. Curiously, with all of the delver variants showing up, Pox seems to be a decent choice currently.

We would need something like:

Researcher's Index {2}

tap: draw a card and put Researcher's Index on top of your library

1: Look at the top 2 cards of your library and put them back in any order

This would be fine, not broken enough to enable counterbalance but more than good enough in a Pox deck.

EDIT: I think a green splash for Sylvan Library, Loam, Trophy, and Decay would be decent as well.

Sunset Pyramid

[kombatkiwi]

Sunset Pyramid

There is also that Endless Atlas

I think the prevalence of Wrenn and Six is a pretty big problem for Pox currently.
Elderspell might be more well positioned than it was immediately post-WAR, or the deck should be playing more Needle effects.

[Mr. Safety]

Sunset Pyramid

Jeesh, it's really close to playable, honestly.

[ronco]

I've combed through almost this entire thread (up to page 194 starting from 1, and i started reading from maybe 210 or so). I don't think i saw it but maybe I over looked it.

Has anyone tried creature based pox in a control shell outside of ghasts and nether spirit? Lili last hope usually has her -2 ability ignored but has it been tried with plaguecrafter? Every third turn discard or innocent blood in a sense. I would imagine the B/U players do this with snappy and get better value, but it was a thought for the mono black builds. Heck can even bring in creature tech like plague engineer out of the board for x/2s or tribal. Just a way to grind out a little extra value over a longer game and help close out with threats brought back from the yard. Less risk of worrying about smallpoxing them away.

Probably not as useful as i think it could be, and maybe people aren't running it for a reason.

[Erdvermampfa]

Ronco, I do try out such things all the time and have gathered a good amount of experience with similiar recursion strategies such as Phyrexian Reclamation, Liliana, Death's Majesty, Palace Siege and Virtus' Maneuver (I don't even consider Last Hope to be necessarily the best because its -2ing her isn't something you want to do in a lot of situations. You didn't even mention the other good ETB creature in black which is Gatekeeper of Malakir. But altogether I mostly had to conclude that a dedicated recursion strategy is often worse than a plain and simple straightforward approach which simply plays the most powerful cards available such as LotV. Well-thought out strategies and all the cute and subtile synergies do not tend to get rewarded as much in this format as does plain powerlevel of cards.

[PirateKing]

The concept isn't bad, the problem I see is Liliana, the Last Hope's -7 is such a house, I think I only ever lost 1 game after using her ultimate, that the threat of ticking up even on an empty board versus bringing anything back just isn't worth it.
Like if you swapped Lili's ultimate abilities, or were working off some other kind of creature recursion engine, then it'd have more weight. But specifically her, it's hard to justify game states outside of corner-case-christmas-land where you -2 instead of +1

[kombatkiwi]

Yes, not having the ability to take advantage of Lili's -2 effect is a drawback in this deck. The problem is that once you start to play creatures then it in general it makes Smallpox worse. You can play 'spell' creatures that avoid this (like Shriekmaw or Plaguecrafter etc) but these are so below rate and also somewhat situational. Adding any creatures to your list at all also makes Nether Spirit worse.

However, now that I think about it, the fact that Plaguecrafter can kill planeswalkers makes it seem like an attractive option. 2B Raven's Crime is obviously below rate but at least it does something against creatureless decks. Maybe it's worth trying.

You do need to be careful that if your opponent bolts/plows it with the trigger on the stack then it will make you sacrifice your own Liliana

[OmniStrata]

There is also that Endless Atlas

I think the prevalence of Wrenn and Six is a pretty big problem for Pox currently.
Elderspell might be more well positioned than it was immediately post-WAR, or the deck should be playing more Needle effects.

Bag of Holding would have been perfect if it didn't shut off Free Nether Spirit from self discard. I do like the Atlas as a mono B Poxer.
I'm pretty sure the Haunted Platemail would have been playable if it was 3 cmc. But can it be used with Factories? Oh, no good with people who like Nether Spirit... Awkward disynergy, cause equipping it costs a lot..

[streetMage]

I'm still trying to tune a BG Loam Pox version.
Ultimately, it really needs Sensei's Divining Top... Mirri's Guile is the closest you can get imo.

A green or black Squee, the Immortal would be pretty awesome..


... Lili last hope usually has her -2 ability ignored ...Eternal Witness could be value with Liliana, the Last Hope in a BG shell...

[zenitramleirdag]

anyone else here on the FB group "smallpox: eradicate the meta"?:smile:

[ronco]

anyone else here on the FB group "smallpox: eradicate the meta"?:smile:

I just joined to check it out. Never heard of it before.

[Lava Snacks]

anyone else here on the FB group "smallpox: eradicate the meta"?:smile:

Pox players are hardcore

[ronco]

Pox players are hardcore

And, user Hardcore is a pox player!

[zenitramleirdag]

I just joined to check it out. Never heard of it before.

yo man! its a great group that is very active..
they cover everything pox or monoblack..(different builds of legacy pox, 8-rack and sometimes pauper MBC too..)
:smile::smile:

[Pittplayer]

Scroll of Fate in Pox?

[Mr. Safety]

Scroll of Fate in Pox?

Yes, most definitely a good option. Card for reference:


https://i.imgur.com/clZF3Dt.jpg

[Numenorean]

So, what are some plays you would make with the card?

Sent from my Android Palantír using Tapatalk

[Mr. Safety]

So, what are some plays you would make with the card?

Sent from my Android Palantír using Tapatalk

1 - It makes Dark Ritual good at all stages of the game. Early it can fuel busted plays, mid-late game it becomes a 2/2 beater
2 - It makes targeted discard good at all stages of the game. Early disruption, 2/2 beater mid-late game when opponents are empty handed
3 - The activation cost is free, which for a deck like Pox that kills its own lands is huge.

[ronco]

I thought of pox when I saw that card as well (though not the most busted use of it). I'm inclined to agree that its worth testing if nothing else. To add on to Mr. Safety's list, we tend to be land heavy in many builds so those late game land drops become beaters too.

[OmniStrata]

Turning everything in your deck into a win-con?! Sign me up! Scroll of Fate: Grand Order. Probably quite strong as a 2 of. 1 might be too few. I'm running a double crucible build.

[Mr. Safety]

I thought of pox when I saw that card as well (though not the most busted use of it). I'm inclined to agree that its worth testing if nothing else. To add on to Mr. Safety's list, we tend to be land heavy in many builds so those late game land drops become beaters too.

I would go so far as to consider cutting 1 of the utility lands for a Swamp, probably a Factory, to further stabilize the mana-base. It might not be necessary, simply because the Scroll incentivizes you to play Dark Rituals (which also help stabilize the mana by giving multiple black mana to cast the BB spells.) Factories help cast Scroll but you occasionally get mana-screwed in Pox because you don't have BB.

[OmniStrata]

Ruling question: Say I manifest Hymn to Tourach, swing for 2 damage, they try Swords to plowshares before damage. Can I instant speed Hymn their hand in response? Or flip a manifested land to dodge the removal?

[ronco]

Ruling question: Say I manifest Hymn to Tourach, swing for 2 damage, they try Swords to plowshares before damage. Can I instant speed Hymn their hand in response? Or flip a manifested land to dodge the removal?

If you flicker a manifested card and it is a non-permanent, it stays exiled. If it's permanent it comes into play as whatever it is. So, in your example, no you cannot instant speed hymn their hand.
Note that with this specific ability, you can only flip up creatures by paying their cost, anything else needs to be externally flickered by something else.

[PirateKing]

The way I see it in Pox we shouldn't focus on Scroll of Fate to cheat stuff or bypass casting obstacles like Dreadnought decks are discussing. I'm thinking back to lots of game where (pre Last Hope days) where we have a Liliana and a Cursed Scroll out, and our play pattern is activate Cursed Scroll, then uptick Liliana to keep their hand low/empty. Stuff we're losing is no longer relevant like Hymns and extra Lilianas. In this case Scroll of Fate activations earns us a free body to bring our clock down from the glacial pace it typically resides.

[Mr. Safety]

The way I see it in Pox we shouldn't focus on Scroll of Fate to cheat stuff or bypass casting obstacles like Dreadnought decks are discussing. I'm thinking back to lots of game where (pre Last Hope days) where we have a Liliana and a Cursed Scroll out, and our play pattern is activate Cursed Scroll, then uptick Liliana to keep their hand low/empty. Stuff we're losing is no longer relevant like Hymns and extra Lilianas. In this case Scroll of Fate activations earns us a free body to bring our clock down from the glacial pace it typically resides.

I 100% agree; this isn't a combo card for pox, it's just a threat that fits well in the strategy.

http://picsmine.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Business-in-the-front-party-in-the-Mullet-Meme.jpg

[Pittplayer]

I 100% agree; this isn't a combo card for pox, it's just a threat that fits well in the strategy.

http://picsmine.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Business-in-the-front-party-in-the-Mullet-Meme.jpg

Sure. But Bane of the Living gives Pox an uncounterable instant speed board wipe with Scroll.

[zenitramleirdag]

the card is so hard to pass up..turns our dead draws into gas..not sure how many copies i'd run but i'm definitely getting a copy or two..

8-rack in modern could really use this effect.. :cry:

[Pittplayer]

After testing Scroll of Fate, it seems to me to be an auto-include in most Pox decks.

Upsides:

Makes creatures uncounterable and able to be played at instant speed.
Bane of the Living is an uncounterable instant speed board wipe with Scroll on the field.
Jace hesitates to bounce the manifested creatures since the control player does not know what card you will be getting back in hand.
You can manifest creatures eot to give them pseudo haste.
All kinds of tricks with morph creatures.
No more dead draws, all your cards can be 2/2's.
No activation cost besides tapping.
Makes Pox decks less GY dependent.
Makes discard spells dead against you since you can just manifest in response to a discard spell.

Downsides:

Dies to abrupt decay and kolaghan's command.
Can be stopped by needle/revoker.
Counterable.

[kombatkiwi]

After testing Scroll of Fate, it seems to me to be an auto-include in most Pox decks.

Upsides:

Makes creatures uncounterable and able to be played at instant speed.
Bane of the Living is an uncounterable instant speed board wipe with Scroll on the field.
Jace hesitates to bounce the manifested creatures since the control player does not know what card you will be getting back in hand.
You can manifest creatures eot to give them pseudo haste.
All kinds of tricks with morph creatures.
No more dead draws, all your cards can be 2/2's.
No activation cost besides tapping.
Makes Pox decks less GY dependent.
Makes discard spells dead against you since you can just manifest in response to a discard spell.

Downsides:

Dies to abrupt decay and kolaghan's command.
Can be stopped by needle/revoker.
Counterable.

1. Making creatures uncounterable doesn't seem that exciting because what creatures are you even playing? You don't care if they counter your Bloodghast or Nether Spirit and if you manifest Tombstalker or Angler then the 'uncounterable creature' aspect is irrelevant because you'll never have enough mana to flip them.
2. I don't think the deck would ever play Bane of the Living even if there is a combo that lets you play it facedown for 0 mana.
3. This point about jace is nonsense, if the 2/2 was a card that you really wanted to keep in hand then you wouldn't have manifested it in the first place.
4. Yup this is nice but will be awkward with Liliana sometimes.
5. Which ones?
6. Yes, this is the best reason to play the card.
7. Yeah this is cool, doesn't interfere with paying for Mishra's Factory / Cursed Scroll
8. Kind of? But a lot of the existing winconditions aren't very grave dependent anyway. For example you could argue this replaces Crucible, which is highly graveyard dependent, but Crucible acting as disruption by returning Wastelands is an extremely strong upside that this card doesn't have. PWs also are not graveyard dependent. So while I agree that not being GY dependent is good, I'm not sure how significant that is
9. Okay, but this is kind of marginal, it's only relevant after resolving a 3-mana artifact when you are otherwise hellbent in which case discardspells aren't going to be very effective against you anyway

1. Yeah being an artifact is worse than Enchantment/PW, K-Command isn't too popular at the moment but Abrade/Grudge are around
2. Yeah, being an activated ability is a downside, but the deck has so many other targets for needles (PW/Scroll/Waste/Factory) that I think it's probably ok
3. Yup this is a downside but applies to most cards

I think the biggest drawbacks are
1. Makes you choose between a 2/2 or a spell. You won't always topdeck a blank and every turn you do draw a relevant spell, this card won't do anything (or at least it forces you to make an awkward decision). It's also technically always going to be card disadvantage so you have to dig through a LOT of blanks for it to start to make sense.
2. Not disruption. In this slot there are many other cards you could choose that not only win the game but also interact with the opponent: Davriel, Last Hope, Crucible (indirectly), Cursed Scroll, etc. Most people are not playing cards that only win the game and do nothing else e.g. Underworld Dreams or Shrieking Affliction. This is arguably a bit better than those two, because the 2/2s can attack planeswalkers and also block, and a 2/2 every turn probably kills the opponent faster than Shrieking Affliction, but many of these other wincon options function as discard or removal (or as a mana source, in the case of Factory/Urami etc), while this doesn't.
3. You are still turning cards into creatures which can clash with the symmetrical anti-creature options like Smallpox/Innocent Blood/Toxic Deluge/Ensnaring Bridge etc

I think the card seems reasonable but I'm not totally sold on it

[Pittplayer]

Mire in Misery. Auto include in Pox sideboards.

[Pittplayer]

1. Making creatures uncounterable doesn't seem that exciting because what creatures are you even playing? You don't care if they counter your Bloodghast or Nether Spirit and if you manifest Tombstalker or Angler then the 'uncounterable creature' aspect is irrelevant because you'll never have enough mana to flip them.
2. I don't think the deck would ever play Bane of the Living even if there is a combo that lets you play it facedown for 0 mana.
3. This point about jace is nonsense, if the 2/2 was a card that you really wanted to keep in hand then you wouldn't have manifested it in the first place.
4. Yup this is nice but will be awkward with Liliana sometimes.
5. Which ones?
6. Yes, this is the best reason to play the card.
7. Yeah this is cool, doesn't interfere with paying for Mishra's Factory / Cursed Scroll
8. Kind of? But a lot of the existing winconditions aren't very grave dependent anyway. For example you could argue this replaces Crucible, which is highly graveyard dependent, but Crucible acting as disruption by returning Wastelands is an extremely strong upside that this card doesn't have. PWs also are not graveyard dependent. So while I agree that not being GY dependent is good, I'm not sure how significant that is
9. Okay, but this is kind of marginal, it's only relevant after resolving a 3-mana artifact when you are otherwise hellbent in which case discardspells aren't going to be very effective against you anyway

1. Yeah being an artifact is worse than Enchantment/PW, K-Command isn't too popular at the moment but Abrade/Grudge are around
2. Yeah, being an activated ability is a downside, but the deck has so many other targets for needles (PW/Scroll/Waste/Factory) that I think it's probably ok
3. Yup this is a downside but applies to most cards

I think the biggest drawbacks are
1. Makes you choose between a 2/2 or a spell. You won't always topdeck a blank and every turn you do draw a relevant spell, this card won't do anything (or at least it forces you to make an awkward decision). It's also technically always going to be card disadvantage so you have to dig through a LOT of blanks for it to start to make sense.
2. Not disruption. In this slot there are many other cards you could choose that not only win the game but also interact with the opponent: Davriel, Last Hope, Crucible (indirectly), Cursed Scroll, etc. Most people are not playing cards that only win the game and do nothing else e.g. Underworld Dreams or Shrieking Affliction. This is arguably a bit better than those two, because the 2/2s can attack planeswalkers and also block, and a 2/2 every turn probably kills the opponent faster than Shrieking Affliction, but many of these other wincon options function as discard or removal (or as a mana source, in the case of Factory/Urami etc), while this doesn't.
3. You are still turning cards into creatures which can clash with the symmetrical anti-creature options like Smallpox/Innocent Blood/Toxic Deluge/Ensnaring Bridge etc

I think the card seems reasonable but I'm not totally sold on it

In response to your opposite attacking, you manifest Bane of the Living for free, then flip it for whatever, 3 Mana, 4 Mana etc. Seems pretty good to me. And I stated my post after play testing. You can argue the points, but I am speaking from experience, Jace bouncing creatues to hand is a lot less attractive when you could be bouncing a pw kill spell you didn't think you needed earlier, or a smallpox, etc.

[Albarkhane]

Mire in misery (Commander 2019)
cc : 1B
Sorcery
Each opponent sacrifice a creature or enchantment.

The effect is unique enough for black (Maro hinted other similar ones might come later) so it is worth considering it. Opponent can choose so most of the time it will be a bad card but if it has a potential somewhere for dealing with enchantments it is in POX shell.

[OmniStrata]

Mire in misery (Commander 2019)
cc : 1B
Sorcery
Each opponent sacrifice a creature or enchantment.

The effect is unique enough for black (Maro hinted other similar ones might come later) so it is worth considering it. Opponent can choose so most of the time it will be a bad card but if it has a potential somewhere for dealing with enchantments it is in POX shell.

According to scryfall, the card isn't legal in any format. Is that an error?

[ronco]

According to scryfall, the card isn't legal in any format. Is that an error?

Probably just because it hasn't been released yet. Once it does I'm sure it will update. Other new C19 cards say the same thing.

[PirateKing]

According to scryfall, the card isn't legal in any format. Is that an error?

Well C19 comes out this Friday, so they aren't released yet. Probably that.

Doing some testing with Scroll of Fate, hasn't been as impactful as I'd have liked it to be, at least not as a 4-of.
Comes across like Crucible of Worlds, when it sticks and is good in the game, like enabling a Waste-lock or allowing advantageous combats recurring Factories, then it;s the best card ever.
Other times it just sort of sits there, while we wilt away against better draws and better threats.

Yes in multiples you can just Manifest the other, but in too many games I would need something immediate, an answer to SFM or Dreadhorde Arcanist about to take over the game for example.
So when I draw 1 Scroll of Fate then see another, seems in many cases any of the 3-ofs in the list that could be 4-ofs would have been better served there.

I'm going to trim back to 2 copies and continue games to see what the balance should be.

[OmniStrata]

Well C19 comes out this Friday, so they aren't released yet. Probably that.

Doing some testing with Scroll of Fate, hasn't been as impactful as I'd have liked it to be, at least not as a 4-of.
Comes across like Crucible of Worlds, when it sticks and is good in the game, like enabling a Waste-lock or allowing advantageous combats recurring Factories, then it;s the best card ever.
Other times it just sort of sits there, while we wilt away against better draws and better threats.

Yes in multiples you can just Manifest the other, but in too many games I would need something immediate, an answer to SFM or Dreadhorde Arcanist about to take over the game for example.
So when I draw 1 Scroll of Fate then see another, seems in many cases any of the 3-ofs in the list that could be 4-ofs would have been better served there.

I'm going to trim back to 2 copies and continue games to see what the balance should be.

And that's why we do fun-ofs. I'm fine with just one Crucible, one Nether Void, 1 MD Liliana, the Last Hope. The inherent weakness of Scroll of Fate in Pox, much like any other card choice, is that it doesn't follow the 3 commandments: deals damage, provides mana, disrupt the opponent. Crucible does all of the above depending on your utility lands - Mishra's Factory, Urborg, Cabal Pit come to mind. The killer land at this point would be EtB tapped & target player discards a card. :eek: I'd only run 1 Scroll of Fate. But doesn't it synergize with Cursed Scroll? No blockers = 4 damage for 3 cmc.

[ronco]

I don't think pox runs Never//Return anymore, but just in case someone does we have a new-ish version of it:
http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Murderous-Rider-265x375.jpg?x96163

Text:

Adventure: Swift End, instant - 1BB
Destroy target creature or PW, you lose 2 life.

Creature part:
Murderous rider - 1BB - 2/3 Lifelink. When it dies,t put it on the bottom of your library.


I don't know that this is enough to help with late game attrition, but letting it sit in exile, untouchable, might be useful in certain builds. Likely for the mono-black crowd if i had to guess.
If nothing else, I think the promo art looks cool!
http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Murderous-Rider-Alt-265x371.jpg?x96163

[kombatkiwi]

I don't think pox runs Never//Return anymore, but just in case someone does we have a new-ish version of it:
http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Murderous-Rider-265x375.jpg?x96163

Text:

Adventure: Swift End, instant - 1BB
Destroy target creature or PW, you lose 2 life.

Creature part:
Murderous rider - 1BB - 2/3 Lifelink. When it dies,t put it on the bottom of your library.


I don't know that this is enough to help with late game attrition, but letting it sit in exile, untouchable, might be useful in certain builds. Likely for the mono-black crowd if i had to guess.
If nothing else, I think the promo art looks cool!
http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Murderous-Rider-Alt-265x371.jpg?x96163

Awkwardly if it gets discarded or countered it sits as a creature in the GY and disables Nether Spirit, which is something to consider.
Last Hope can return it if that does happen though, which is something I guess

[OmniStrata]

Awkwardly if it gets discarded or countered it sits as a creature in the GY and disables Nether Spirit, which is something to consider.
Last Hope can return it if that does happen though, which is something I guess

A reusable Hero's Downfall that's a Lifelinking 3/2 at worst? :eek::laugh::laugh: I'll try 2. I'm using Eternal God Bontu in my Nether Spirit slot so creatures in the yard are no longer an issue for me. Main decking 2 Liliana, the Last Hope ensures late game dominance.

[kombatkiwi]

A reusable Hero's Downfall that's a Lifelinking 3/2 at worst? :eek::laugh::laugh: I'll try 2. I'm using Eternal God Bontu in my Nether Spirit slot so creatures in the yard are no longer an issue for me. Main decking 2 Liliana, the Last Hope ensures late game dominance.

The awkward thing then is that if everything works successfully, then when the Knight dies you can't actually re-use it because it tucks itself
A bit of a catch-22

[ronco]

Its probably a puny 1/1, but bloodghast builds might be interested (pre-grave hate sideboarding at least).

https://preview.redd.it/o8nb2u9qhyl31.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&d8816447

Ayara, First of Lockthwain. BBB. Elf Noble.
Whenever ~ or another black creature ETB under your control, each opponent loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.
T, sac another black creature - draw a card.

Manaless dredge might be interested in this one as well. Downside if you put plague/engineer on elves, you might negate this card, depending on its toughness.

[Fallen_Empire]

scroll of fate is a way to feed a contamination lock by providing a creature each turn :cool:

[Pittplayer]

So, how about Fires of Invention in B/R pox?

[kombatkiwi]

So, how about Fires of Invention in B/R pox?

By the time you can expect to play a 4-mana enchantment in pox both players hands are probably near-empty, and if you're topdecking then this card doesn't really do anything, because any spell that could be cast with its ability could be cast from lands instead. It's nice that it lets you play spells for free while you keep your mana open for Mishra's Factory / Cursed Scroll activations but it doesn't seem worth spending 4 mana and a card for this effect. It would probably be better just to have a card like Coercive Portal / Bottled Cloister

[ronco]

Taking a depths flavor of pox to the weekly Monday, inspired by a list i found in here a while back. Have the following list.



4 crop rotation
3 inquisition of Kozilek
3 hymn to tourach
4 smallpox
2 cabal therapy
4 lili of the veil
3 abrupt decay
3 entomb
2 life from the loam
1 toxic deluge
1 ravens crime
1 nether spirit
1 darkblast
1 pernicious deed

1 tabernacle at pendrell vale
1 cabal pit
4 wasteland
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 verdant catacomb
1 bloodstained mire
1 polluted delta
1 dark depths
2 swamp
1 forest
4 bayou
2 thespian's stage
1 mishra's factory
1 bojuka bog


board:

1 golgari brownscale
1 bontu's reckoning
2 surgical extraction
2 engineered plague
1 leyline of the void
1 krosan reclamation
1 coffin purge
1 sadistic sacrament
1 damping sphere
1 choke
1 pithing needle
1 lost legacy
1 <open>

The deck definitely has a toolbox feel to it, as does the sideboard. I can probably get away with swapping Thoughtsieze for IoK but other than that, any late suggestions that might be a good idea? I'm thinking the board will be -brownscale, + leyline and + another bontu or deluge.

[ronco]

Quick results.
R1 vs burn. W 2-1
R2 vs Red Prison, L 1-2
R3 vs Snow Aluren combo W 2-1.
Final 2-1.
Took 3rd on breakers in an 8 person weekly.

Decks represented: Maverick, Pox, RUG Dreadhorde arcanist (with shardless), BUG snow Aluren, burn, I think a jund deck, I think a lands deck, and not sure on the last one.

R1 burn g1 vs Ward, on the draw
he takes early fetch damage, drops a Taylor swiftspear and starts doing burn things. I eventually small pox it away taking advantage of raven's crime and a decently high land count to buy a few extra turns. He gets me down to 10 and i was able to summon the Marit Lage. He could get me down to 1 i think. Just barely got by.
R1 G2 he's on the play, He gets his swiftspear in play again and again it gets dealt with shortly thereafter. I try to assemble the combo but he wastelands at the appropriate time. He only takes fetch damage and bolts me for the win.
R1 G3 he starts off with a soul scar mage and i small pox that away and follow up with factory beats for a bit. He eventually gets me down to 3 life and i'm swinging in with factory and he hast a wasteland up. I keep stage and mana up to copy in response should I need to. He blanks on his draws i think 3-4 turns in a row somehow which is enough for the factory to finish him off.

R2 g1 vs red prison.
He starts off with chalice on 1, i follow up with a factory. He comes back with a chalice on 2 whit some sol lands. I get a lili going and start ticking up and discarding a spirit to get that clock going. I get lili up to 7 (wanted to ult and keep her) but he lands a rabblemaster and comes back at lili with the token. So I ult her and split his chalices (I had small pox and 2 crop rotations, so either would have been fine to regain the game). He kept chalice on 1, so I small poxed away the rest of his guys and then go in with the spirit. He tries to bridge him off but it doesn't work as he doesn't fine lands and his hand gets too big.

R2g2, t1 chalice on 1, t2 blood moon. I dig and dig for basics and i don't really find what i need (abrupt decay). Was hunted by a couple of SSgs that I was eventually able to dispatch, but Chandra kills me after.

R2 g3, we start off and he t0 double leyline. I hymn him and get some good stuff, but he has a Chandra again and i can't do much to interact with that (or the moon) and i just die 2 points at a time.

R3, g1 vs aluren. Didn't take many notes so going off memory.
I start off with Iok then a hymn and do lots of pox things. I am able to get in with factory and/or double factory (thanks to stage) all the way down to 5, then he pulled off the combo. I had a pretty big misplay, as i had threshold, mana, and a cabal pit in play that MIGHT have been able to disrupt the combo. He was at 5, then took himself down to 1 with beast activations and I think i have the timing window to -2/-2 a key part. Maybe not. It wound up not mattering in the end but he gets me there.

R3g2 I get quick disruption again and drop a lili that he lets resolve. After a few upticks and getting a few lands blown up he concedes to the lili lock. I think i had my loam in the yard to boot, but i can't recall.

R3g3 we slug it out for the "win and in" for top 4. I wish i had better notes because there was a lot of back and forth in this game. Lots of disruption followed by his drawing to try and dig out of it. I have crop rotation, lili, and a few other spells in hand when he drops a spyglass. Naturally he names lili (he had not seen the depth's package yet, but had suspected it). Unfortunately for him my next card off the top is stage so i drop it and clear the coast for the rotation into depths. I get it and the creature comes out. He manages to get his aluren but no combo. He drops a 2 coatls, a clique and i think another flyer in the process of his digging really worrying me he'd find his combo. Once again i forget that i have cabal pit to take care of the surprise blocker, so after 3 of these getting flashed in i wise up and crop rotate for it and take care of him. This was a real fun match up and a real fun game.

Also, props to the neoform player for giving me a jump as my truck battery or alternator decided to crap out. Some misplays today but overall had fun. Got some props on the deck which is always nice and the people were good too and as always, got to play new decks i hadn't played against before. Legacy is awesome!

edit: fixed spelling/grammar errors.

[Mr. Safety]

This card seems like it could be alright in pox:

http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/castlelocthwainp.jpg

[kombatkiwi]

Yup, that land is definitely solid
Almost certainly better than the Mikokoro some people have been using in the past (and also better than Geier Reach Sanitarium unless you are trying to combo it with Chains of Mephistopheles)

[ronco]

For those wanting to get on the prison pox build, voids are coming down in price quite a bit. SCG has had them on sale a while and recently dropped prices again (comparable to ebay sold listings, but likely in better condition and much better reliability). Not sure why the HP ones aren't discounted but whatever.

https://www.starcitygames.com/results?name=Nether+Void&auto=Y

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=nether+void+-italian&_sacat=0&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1&LH_Complete=1

(I don't work for them or anything, just spreading news for anyone on the hunt for them).

[FTW]

Given how successful Blood Moon is right now in this meta, is it time to play Contamination? Beats RUG, beats 4c, beats Depths, etc... Scroll of Fate really supports the lock.



//Lands: 25
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Nurturing Peatland
1 Cabal Pit
3 City of Traitors
8 Swamp

//Spells: 19
4 Dark Ritual
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
1 Toxic Deluge

//Creatures: 4
4 Bloodghast

//Enchantments and Artifacts: 8
3 Contamination
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Scroll of Fate

//Planeswalkers: 4
4 Liliana of the Veil

[kombatkiwi]

Given how successful Blood Moon is right now in this meta, is it time to play Contamination? Beats RUG, beats 4c, beats Depths, etc... Scroll of Fate really supports the lock.



//Lands: 25
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Nurturing Peatland
1 Cabal Pit
3 City of Traitors
8 Swamp

//Spells: 19
4 Dark Ritual
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
1 Toxic Deluge

//Creatures: 4
4 Bloodghast

//Enchantments and Artifacts: 8
3 Contamination
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Scroll of Fate

//Planeswalkers: 4
4 Liliana of the Veil


Contamination doesn't beat depths outright because it only affects lands when they tap for mana.
You can still hardcast Hexmage or activate stage using Black mana so Contamination doesn't stop it.
It does stop RUG from casting spells, but then, so does moon. I think the problem with this deck is that it's not clear what the advantages are over just playing the red version. The plan A of "my opponent can't cast any spells because their lands don't work" has absolutely no cohesion with the plan B of "I'm going to discard all of my opponent's cards"

[OmniStrata]

Contamination doesn't beat depths outright because it only affects lands when they tap for mana.
You can still hardcast Hexmage or activate stage using Black mana so Contamination doesn't stop it.
It does stop RUG from casting spells, but then, so does moon. I think the problem with this deck is that it's not clear what the advantages are over just playing the red version. The plan A of "my opponent can't cast any spells because their lands don't work" has absolutely no cohesion with the plan B of "I'm going to discard all of my opponent's cards"

Actually, it's the epitome of the total denial plan. You nuke their hand and kill their draws. Contamination is just an overpriced way to do it. I'd suggest Dimir Machinations for consistency along with Beseech the Queen. Nothing causes surrenders like hellbent topdeck mode and your lands are useless. Sadly, an Artifact or colorless solution could escape. Or Mire in Misery.

[OmniStrata]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2218439#paper

Aside from fast swarm strategies, your game 1 should be balanced. 1 Dark Ritual due to card disadvantage reduction and aside from Nether Void there are no cmc spells beyond 3. Plague Engineer is insane.

[kombatkiwi]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2218439#paper

Aside from fast swarm strategies, your game 1 should be balanced. 1 Dark Ritual due to card disadvantage reduction and aside from Nether Void there are no cmc spells beyond 3. Plague Engineer is insane.

You want Plague Engineer against decks that have small creatures, which means that you want to also want to kill your opponent's creatures with Innocent Blood / Smallpox (which eats your own Engineer) and you want to block with Nether Spirit (which can't come back if you have Engineer in the graveyard)


Actually, it's the epitome of the total denial plan... Nothing causes surrenders like hellbent topdeck mode and your lands are useless.
If their lands are useless why do you care what they draw? If they are hellbent with nothing to cast why do you care if their lands don't make mana? Trying to shut down the opponent on every single axis will spread yourself too thin and make it easier for the opponent to come back into the game

If you look at a successful deck like moon stompy the plan is all the same
Moon -> You can't cast spells
Chalice -> You can't cast spells
Trinisphere -> You can't cast spells

[OmniStrata]

You want Plague Engineer against decks that have small creatures, which means that you want to also want to kill your opponent's creatures with Innocent Blood / Smallpox (which eats your own Engineer) and you want to block with Nether Spirit (which can't come back if you have Engineer in the graveyard)


If their lands are useless why do you care what they draw? If they are hellbent with nothing to cast why do you care if their lands don't make mana? Trying to shut down the opponent on every single axis will spread yourself too thin and make it easier for the opponent to come back into the game

If you look at a successful deck like moon stompy the plan is all the same
Moon -> You can't cast spells
Chalice -> You can't cast spells
Trinisphere -> You can't cast spells

All solid points and I'd like to add to that, Liliana, the Last Hope can pull dead Engineers from the yard. Moon and Chalice and Sphere are all effective until they top deck an Abrupt Decay. I could run Contamination with a totally overhauled shell. However Abrupt Decay decks have non-land mana options, they're green after all. Pox was already designed to attack resources on every single axis isn't it? Life, Hand, Creatures and Land all at once. Ashiok, Dream Render gives Pox an alt win-condition that covers the final resource we didn't attack before. Artifact mana just means we have to kill them faster. :laugh:

I'll grant you, without Blast Zone and Ratchet Bomb resolved artifacts with static abilities are a problem. You could just kill them with the sideboard.

[non-inflammable]

Artifact mana just means we have to kill them faster..

or run Karn, the great creator?

if we're still running CMC 2 as our business spells (Hymn, Bitterblossom, Smallpox and Bloodghast)
would you opt for running sol lands and 4 chalice of the void or stay with the discard suite of thoughtseize, cabal therapy and inquisition of kozilek?

i did see a B/G Pox list that ran 4 chalice of the void and 4 mox diamond along with 27 lands (none were sol lands)
and all the business spells that help with a green splash: sylvan library, life from the loam, living wish, abrupt decay and choke.

there is a parallel to the bloodmoon stompy lists, but there is no payout to turn 2 a contamination. there needs to be set-up.
would 4 mishra's factory, 1 nether spirit, 4 bitterblossom and 4 bloodghast be enough creatures to support a contamination lock?
i'm thinking yes, but along with 2 or 3 crucible of worlds and at least 2 scroll of fate.

someone mentioned that the U/B Tezz lists could run contamination and they might be right...

[OmniStrata]

Anyone have an updated sideboard for a blind meta?

Some cards I've considered:
The Elderspell - Nuking Teferi, Time Raveler & Narset, Parter of Veils & Jace, the Mind Sculptor when topdecking :cool:
Leyline of the Void
Night of Souls' Betrayal
Curse of Fool's Wisdom: need to be extra careful for madness on this one. Excellent vs. Burn & behind a bridge.
Dystopia - seems to be the hot topic in some circles
Pithing Needle - Always one minimum.
Mire in Misery - crazy outs vs. Back to Basics, Blood Moon, Sulfuric Vortex, Pyrostatic pillar etc.
Ensnaring Bridge
Night of Souls' Betrayal
Tombstalker - just kill them.
Liliana the Last Hope - Emblem stacking for the insanely long games.

[Mr. Safety]

I really like Collective Brutality in a blind metagame. It's almost never dead. Mire in Misery seems like an especially good addition to Pox for providing outs to problematic cards. I've been on 4 copies of Pithing Needle maindeck in Turbo Depths, it has a bunch of strong targets in the current metagame, mostly for W6 but also for Jace, Teferi, Chandra, Karn for other PWs. Also hits Hexmage, Stage, Elvish Reclaimer, Knight of the Reliquary, Stoneforge Mystic, Aether Vial, Auriok Salvagers, and Griselbrand. I think at least 2-3 Needles will go a long ways towards tipping matchup percentages. If for no other reason, it nukes W6, which changes the whole dynamic of the Delver matchup.

[OmniStrata]

I really like Collective Brutality in a blind metagame. It's almost never dead. Mire in Misery seems like an especially good addition to Pox for providing outs to problematic cards. I've been on 4 copies of Pithing Needle maindeck in Turbo Depths, it has a bunch of strong targets in the current metagame, mostly for W6 but also for Jace, Teferi, Chandra, Karn for other PWs. Also hits Hexmage, Stage, Elvish Reclaimer, Knight of the Reliquary, Stoneforge Mystic, Aether Vial, Auriok Salvagers, and Griselbrand. I think at least 2-3 Needles will go a long ways towards tipping matchup percentages. If for no other reason, it nukes W6, which changes the whole dynamic of the Delver matchup.

I'm digging the Needles, but 4 for main deck? Seems tough to figure out what to remove. Resolved permanents are ever the problem for Poxers. Brutality for creatures & Burn while tossing Nether Spirit is too spicy not to try. I updated my sideboard with old tech from ancient times. But the Needles sounds efficient as it's direct card advantage for copies yet to resolve.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2218439#paper

Many thanks for the suggestions, will test and update soon!:cool:

[Mr. Safety]

I'm digging the Needles, but 4 for main deck?

I just meant to say that in Turbo Depths its good enough to warrant 4 in the maindeck, not for Pox. I meant at least 2-3 between the main/side. If you have a metagame ripe for Needle to hose, by all means maindeck it. I wouldn't go to a tournament without at least 3 Needles for somewhere in the 75 ATM.


Brutality for creatures & Burn while tossing Nether Spirit is too spicy not to try. I updated my sideboard with old tech from ancient times. But the Needles sounds efficient as it's direct card advantage for copies yet to resolve.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2218439#paper

Many thanks for the suggestions, will test and update soon!:cool:

I try to cram Brutality in almost any deck playing black, just because it can really swing tempo so hard. In some cases you can rip the trio of effects and be way ahead, especially in an attrition strategy like Pox.

If I were to take Pox to a tournament today I would sideboard like this:

3x Pithing Needle
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Collective Brutality
2x Plague Engineer
2x Mire in Misery
2x Liliana's Triumph


I think that would cover a bunch of matchups, and this is assuming that I would play maindeck Ratchet Bomb and Bitterblossom (at least 2 of each.) If on Innocent Blood I would cut them for Plague Engineer and Liliana's Triumph post-board. If on Fatal Push, the extra removal gets even better.

EDIT: Looking at the list you posted, I would cut 1x Ashiok for a Crucible of Worlds. I think any version playing actual Pox (the card) would benefit from 1-2 Crucible for land recursion. Also, if playing Ashiok maindeck then I would probably sideboard Surgical over Leyline. Surgical is better if drawn later in the game and you can still have t0 interaction. The option to t1 Ritual > Ashiok is still there but you have Surgical for redundancy and a lower reliance on mulligans for Leyline.

[OmniStrata]

I just meant to say that in Turbo Depths its good enough to warrant 4 in the maindeck, not for Pox. I meant at least 2-3 between the main/side. If you have a metagame ripe for Needle to hose, by all means maindeck it. I wouldn't go to a tournament without at least 3 Needles for somewhere in the 75 ATM.



I try to cram Brutality in almost any deck playing black, just because it can really swing tempo so hard. In some cases you can rip the trio of effects and be way ahead, especially in an attrition strategy like Pox.

If I were to take Pox to a tournament today I would sideboard like this:

3x Pithing Needle
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Collective Brutality
2x Plague Engineer
2x Mire in Misery
2x Liliana's Triumph


I think that would cover a bunch of matchups, and this is assuming that I would play maindeck Ratchet Bomb and Bitterblossom (at least 2 of each.) If on Innocent Blood I would cut them for Plague Engineer and Liliana's Triumph post-board. If on Fatal Push, the extra removal gets even better.

EDIT: Looking at the list you posted, I would cut 1x Ashiok for a Crucible of Worlds. I think any version playing actual Pox (the card) would benefit from 1-2 Crucible for land recursion. Also, if playing Ashiok maindeck then I would probably sideboard Surgical over Leyline. Surgical is better if drawn later in the game and you can still have t0 interaction. The option to t1 Ritual > Ashiok is still there but you have Surgical for redundancy and a lower reliance on mulligans for Leyline.

Sounds good. I need to acquire Triumph's now. Love the freedom favor text for it. Is Ensnaring Bridge now considered obsolete?

[Mr. Safety]

Sounds good. I need to acquire Triumph's now. Love the freedom favor text for it. Is Ensnaring Bridge now considered obsolete?

It's not very common anymore, I haven't seen it in ages. It does a great job against Dark Depths, Reanimator, and Sneak/Show. Depending on how many of those decks you expect to face it can replace Toxic Deluge in your game plan. It's worse against Elves and Goblins, but those are pretty rare matchups in the general metagame (and that's what your Plague Engineers are for!)

[amjw]

so I went and splashed out on one Nether Void. What versions of pox can I make with just this one legends card (main board or sideboard)?

Has anyone done any play testing with Scroll of Fate? Does it have wheels in this deck?

I want to utilise it in this deck without having to buy a chains and a tabernacle lol.

[OmniStrata]

so I went and splashed out on one Nether Void. What versions of pox can I make with just this one legends card (main board or sideboard)?

Has anyone done any play testing with Scroll of Fate? Does it have wheels in this deck?

I want to utilise it in this deck without having to buy a chains and a tabernacle lol.

I run one Nether Void. I've relegated to the sideboard though.

[ronco]

so I went and splashed out on one Nether Void. What versions of pox can I make with just this one legends card (main board or sideboard)?

Has anyone done any play testing with Scroll of Fate? Does it have wheels in this deck?

I want to utilise it in this deck without having to buy a chains and a tabernacle lol.

I haven't gotten to testing with scroll of fate yet. Right now I'm trying to make void work in a BG shell with abrupt decay and other uncounterable spells to make it more one sided. Not having great luck with it just yet, but every now and then i get a fun game out of it. Abrupt decay, nether spirit, bloodghast, manlands to get around the counterable stuff and stuff like lili, last hope to generate tokens. I haven't tried bitterblossom yet but that is probably a good way to go too. The mana base is being the problem child at the moment. Its hard enough getting black sources in mono colored, getting green in there as well is even worse.

[Mr. Safety]

I haven't gotten to testing with scroll of fate yet. Right now I'm trying to make void work in a BG shell with abrupt decay and other uncounterable spells to make it more one sided. Not having great luck with it just yet, but every now and then i get a fun game out of it. Abrupt decay, nether spirit, bloodghast, manlands to get around the counterable stuff and stuff like lili, last hope to generate tokens. I haven't tried bitterblossom yet but that is probably a good way to go too. The mana base is being the problem child at the moment. Its hard enough getting black sources in mono colored, getting green in there as well is even worse.

I think if you're going to play Scroll in Loam Pox I would get the cycle land count up a little bit (Tranquil Thicket/Barren Moor.) Dredging loam and getting back lands to convert into 2/2's is really powerful; the cycle lands allow you to dredge more often and they are great manifest fodder (they are lousy as actual land drops.) I could see 26-27 lands with 3-4 cycle lands feeding Scroll in a powerful way. Cabal Pit, Maze of Ith, and Karakas should all be in your land mix. The way to accommodate green is to just cram more lands into the deck. You want, in general, 13 initial black sources and 13 initial green sources (they overlap), then you can add in utility lands.

Here is where I would start:

4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
3x Bayou
1x Woodland Cemetery
2x Swamp
1x Forest
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
1x Maze of Ith
1x Cabal Pit
2x Barren Moor
1x Tranquil Thicket

Sideboard
1x Karakas


It doesn't allow you to play stuff like Mishra's Factory, but that's what you have to sacrifice to make BG work. You are trading the manlands for the Loam/Cycle land interaction. You could test out the BG manland, it might be ok as a substitute that also allows you to play more green sources of mana. Crop Rotation and Entomb are both very, very powerful in this strategy. They get the lands you need or Loam/Darkblast/Bloodghast into your graveyard to start pressure your opponent's life total. EDIT#2: Cabal Therapy gets really good if you find a good mix of manlands and Bloodghast/Nether Spirit.

EDIT: Hissing Quagmire



The way I used to roll with Loam Pox was with Crop Rotation and Vampire Hexmage, but that's a different story...

I would love to see the list you're tinkering with. BG Loam Pox was one of my favorite decks back in the day.

[ronco]

I think if you're going to play Scroll in Loam Pox I would get the cycle land count up a little bit (Tranquil Thicket/Barren Moor.) Dredging loam and getting back lands to convert into 2/2's is really powerful; the cycle lands allow you to dredge more often and they are great manifest fodder (they are lousy as actual land drops.) I could see 26-27 lands with 3-4 cycle lands feeding Scroll in a powerful way. Cabal Pit, Maze of Ith, and Karakas should all be in your land mix. The way to accommodate green is to just cram more lands into the deck. You want, in general, 13 initial black sources and 13 initial green sources (they overlap), then you can add in utility lands.

Here is where I would start:

4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
3x Bayou
1x Woodland Cemetery
2x Swamp
1x Forest
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
1x Maze of Ith
1x Cabal Pit
2x Barren Moor
1x Tranquil Thicket

Sideboard
1x Karakas


It doesn't allow you to play stuff like Mishra's Factory, but that's what you have to sacrifice to make BG work. You are trading the manlands for the Loam/Cycle land interaction. You could test out the BG manland, it might be ok as a substitute that also allows you to play more green sources of mana. Crop Rotation and Entomb are both very, very powerful in this strategy. They get the lands you need or Loam/Darkblast/Bloodghast into your graveyard to start pressure your opponent's life total. EDIT#2: Cabal Therapy gets really good if you find a good mix of manlands and Bloodghast/Nether Spirit.

EDIT: Hissing Quagmire



The way I used to roll with Loam Pox was with Crop Rotation and Vampire Hexmage, but that's a different story...

I would love to see the list you're tinkering with. BG Loam Pox was one of my favorite decks back in the day.


Its not good lol.
Off the top of my head:
27 lands:
2 swamp
1 forest
4 fetch
4 bayou
4 wasteland
4 factory
1 cabal pit
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog
4 urborg
1 something else?

3 abrupt decay (might be 4)

4 lili of the veil
3 lili, last hope
2 Karn, great creator
2 innocent blood
2 liliana's triumph
2 hymn
4 iok/thoughsieze
4 bloodghast
1 nether spirit
2 void
4 smallpox


Board isn't established, but the wishboard included: ensnaring bridge, tormod's crypt, liquimetal coating, and retrofitter foundry.

The list started as Karn pox like Megucci streamed for CFB a few weeks (months?) back. He did really well on that particular run but i'm pretty sure it was because he opened almost every game with dark ritual -> lili it seemed. I tested that deck and liked slamming a void but i found it was hurting me more and i couldn't sustain the lock so I wanted to try something else.

Notes:
- lacks card draw/filtering
- pilot isn't very experienced with void/prison decks (lol)
- looks like it has plenty of removal but it "feels" like it doesn't
- my only play testing is against a midrange gruul deck where almost everything has haste. So maybe it isn't a fair play test but I think it should be a basic hurdle to be able to handle. That list below.
- bitterblossom might be a way to go over lili last hope. Bricks X/1s all the same anyway.

To your point about loam, my previous version of pox was depths pox with loam AND entomb package and I loved it (link here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25713-Primer-Deck-Pox&p=1075645&viewfull=1#post1075645)). Very strong with lots of ability to dig/dredge/rotate into answers or threats and was able to close the game out quick when it needed to. I want to try the wish version of that as that might be even nastier with the inclusion of plague engineer. But right now I'm wanting to slam some voids because it just feels mean.
https://y.yarn.co/8fbf55f2-9a89-4f49-bbd9-f0a214c2e8a8_screenshot.jpg

playtest list, from memory
6 ball lightning variants, I think.
3-4 thunderkin awakener
4 Bird of paradise
4 kird ape
4 bolt
4? risk factor
4 BBE
4 crashing footfalls
4 strangleroot geist
2 abrade
2 lotus petal
lands

So maybe its just a bad matchup to test against who knows. But i figure it has enough 2 for ones (footfalls, undying, BBE, risk factor) that it could simulate other decks cantrips and what not to a degree.

[Mr. Safety]

I think Karn could be great in the mono-black version, but green offers it's own (more efficient) options. Living Wish and Crop Rotation are almost as powerful as Karn if you aren't going for the Lattice lock. Karn is super powerful but is mana hungry; Loam Pox can accomplish that but in my opinion it isn't the best use of the color.

The best cards you could add to your list are Sylvan Library and Barren Moor. That open slot (forgotten?) should be a cycle land. You don't need 4 Urborgs, 3 is enough, so that opens up another slot for another cycle land. I am continuously reminded lately that the best thing you can do in magic is draw extra cards; as long as you aren't dead, it will help you win games eventually.

This is what I would do with the non-lands part of your list:

-1 Nether Spirit
-2 Liliana, the Last Hope
-2 Karn, the Great Creator

+2 Life from the Loam
+1 Cabal Therapy
+2 Sylvan Library

[streetMage]

I am an avid GB Loam Pox fan.
Life from the Loam is the true card advantage engine.
I second all of what Mr. Safety said, but in addition:

I would find room for:
3-4x Mox Diamond
1x Castle Locthwain
1x Nurturing Peatland

I also like 2x Mirri's Guile, which is my replacement for Sensei's Divining Top.
While Guile is no Top it works really well with Loam as "card filtering"... I've found it invaluable and the only way I could play GB Loam Pox.
I also like that Guile allows you to make the decision during your upkeep before deciding whether to dredge Loam.. as opposed to Sylvan Library which requires you to decide during the draw/dredge phase.

Sidenote: Wrenn and Six is busted and would have been the perfect planeswalker for GB Pox if it was in our colors.

[Mr. Safety]

I am an avid GB Loam Pox fan.
Life from the Loam is the true card advantage engine.
I second all of what Mr. Safety said, but in addition:

I would find room for:
3-4x Mox Diamond
1x Castle Locthwain
1x Nurturing Peatland

I also like 2x Mirri's Guile, which is my replacement for Sensei's Divining Top.
While Guile is no Top it works really well with Loam as "card filtering"... I've found it invaluable and the only way I could play GB Loam Pox.
I also like that Guile allows you to make the decision during your upkeep before deciding whether to dredge Loam.. as opposed to Sylvan Library which requires you to decide during the draw/dredge phase.

Sidenote: Wrenn and Six is busted and would have been the perfect planeswalker for GB Pox if it was in our colors.

Good call on Mirri's Guile. I always avoided it because I wanted to keep myself from being too weak to Chalice@1 and because in some matchups 4 life is fine for extra cards.

EDIT: for context, I was playing a bunch of 1-drops that would get nullified (Innocent Blood, Thougthseize, Cabal Therapy, Crop Rotation) so the exposure was higher than what ronco is playing. Sylvan at 2 was a curve consideration.

Sorry to sabotage the conversation, but I genuinely think Arcum's Astrolabe and Snow-covered Swamps should be a serious consideration in mono-black Pox. It allows your many colorless lands to make black mana while providing card draw. Dead of Winter seems very, very good as well.

[streetMage]

..Sorry to sabotage the conversation, but I genuinely think Arcum's Astrolabe and Snow-covered Swamps should be a serious consideration in mono-black Pox. It allows your many colorless lands to make black mana while providing card draw. Dead of Winter seems very, very good as well.Scrying Sheets as well..

[Mr. Safety]

Scrying Sheets as well..

I don't think we would have enough Snow permanents to feed it. It would have 12-13 swamps,2-3 Sheets, and 4 Astrolabe, giving a maximum of 19 targets. I don't think that's enough to make it worth the small card advantage you get from it. It would make a fragile mono-colored mana-base even more fragile after including Factory and Wasteland (both non-negotiable in mono-black, in my humble opinion.) Astrolabe + 13 Swamps might not be enough for Dead of Winter, now that I think about it.

[kombatkiwi]

I don't think we would have enough Snow permanents to feed it. It would have 12-13 swamps,2-3 Sheets, and 4 Astrolabe, giving a maximum of 19 targets. I don't think that's enough to make it worth the small card advantage you get from it. It would make a fragile mono-colored mana-base even more fragile after including Factory and Wasteland (both non-negotiable in mono-black, in my humble opinion.) Astrolabe + 13 Swamps might not be enough for Dead of Winter, now that I think about it.

I think the main problem with this idea is that a prison-style deck probably doesn't want to take the tempo loss of spending a mana to cycle a card in the early turns of the game. Lines like Turn 1 Thoughtseize Turn 2 Hymn Turn 3 Liliana for example, become much less scary if you have to burn a mana to play Astrolabe. Of course you can sandbag the Labe until turn 4 if you want in this sequence, but then you are making it less likely you have that curve of interaction in the first place because the astrolabe is taking the spot of a 'real' spell in your hand.

I do like the idea of having more reliable access to black sources for free and I would probably put astrolabe in the "worth a try" basket, but I expect it won't work out in the end

Maybe you decide that after a certain "core" of spells (Liliana, Hymn, etc...) you are almost grasping at straws to fill out the 60. ("Do I want an inquisition as the 60th card? Or an innocent blood?")
In this case Astrolabe would also be more appealing just as a kind of deck-thinning consistency tool (with the upside of fixing mana). In this situation it would also make sense.

I'm not convinced it would end up making Dead of Winter worth it, I think I would always play Bridge first, but maybe it could be slightly better than Deluge in some situations. The scrying sheets idea is alright as the opportunity cost isn't that high, but it wouldn't hit very often (at best you probably have around 1/3 of your deck Snow with no library manipulation).
You also need to be careful how many basic swamps you end up playing because there are a lot of other nonbasic B-producing lands that are appealing and don't cast this (Urborg, Urami, Castle Lockthwain, etc)
It's also a nonbo with Chains of Mephistopheles but that's not an essential card I guess.

[OmniStrata]

Maybe you decide that after a certain "core" of spells (Liliana, Hymn, etc...) you are almost grasping at straws to fill out the 60. ("Do I want an inquisition as the 60th card? Or an innocent blood?")
In this case Astrolabe would also be more appealing just as a kind of deck-thinning consistency tool (with the upside of fixing mana). In this situation it would also make sense.

Core? Oftentimes my core brews are 64 cards...:eek: Pox needs so much disruption and lands I wonder can anyone's core starting list be <60? Ashiok became a core card to cover our GY weaknesses a bit as well as fetch-land shenanigans for us LD enthusiasts. The core keeps growing with ever more cards to cut to make room. Giant Pox in all its glory was ultimately removed :cry: Personally, without scry built in before its draw mechanic, I don't believe Astrolabe is good enough either.

[ClimbGneiss]

Hello all:

Prior to War of the Spark, I had spent a significant amount of time trying to dial in Pox and I had come up with a build which I had put together a significant winning percentage with. At large tournaments, I routinely cleaned up against decks that we should win against, broke even or came close to it against a surprisingly selection of decks you might think we'd always lose to (Turbo Depths, Storm) and auto lost versus certain decks (Post, Mono Red Stompy, etc).
I took a break from the game just before we got a bunch of new toys (Castle Lochtwain, Liliana's Triumph, Elderspell) and before the W6 scourge was printed. Now that my other life obligations are all set, I'm getting back in post-W6 and I'm quite sure my build still has legs with the only new obstacle being Oko.

List

1 Cursed Scroll
1 Nerher Spirit
4 Liliana, of the Veil
1/2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
=9/10

4 Dark Ritual
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
1/2 Toxic Deluge
=25/26

1 Trinisphere

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Maze of Ith
1 Cabal Pit
7 Swamps
1 Blast Zone
1 Castle Lochtwain

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the void
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 The Abyss
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Trinisphere
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Liliana the last hope
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Ensnaring Bridge

Maybe
Elderspell
Lilianas Triumph
Ashiok, Dream Render
Leyline of Sanctity



The efficacy in the deck comes from several core strategies:
- this must be played like mono red stumpy in that you must sequence your cards correctly and know you and your opponents outs based on any game state
- this deck is build to beat almost any creature based win condition. But, you have to use your life as a resource and know when to turn the corner
- I have reduced the win conditions to an absolute minimum.
- this deck is a resource denial deck at it's very core, it is not a true prison deck. There are better prison builds. I identify whatever resource the opponent is dry on and lean on that resource in a particular game.

I think Blast Zone and Castle Lochtwain fit in fairly seamlessly replacing 2 Basic Swamps. Going down from 9 to 7. We will see if that reduces the mana stability too much.
Ashiok, Dream Render could replace the sideboard Leyline of the Void, making us weaker to graveyard strategies but stronger against a range of other strategies. Also, we could run less than 4, opening up sideboard space.
How big are walkers right now? Would running some # of Elderspell be worth it? It's very narrow and between pithing needle and ratchet bomb, we have broader answers.
Liliana's Triump seems great, but I'm not sure I like replacing Innocent Blood because the curve matters

Oh, fwiw, in 100 plus matches, I was winning ~55 percent of games. And 60% plus of matches. This is based off of memory, I had it tracked via spreadsheet and my computer died. I'll see if I can find it archived anywhere.

[ronco]

Hello all:

Prior to War of the Spark, I had spent a significant amount of time trying to dial in Pox and I had come up with a build which I had put together a significant winning percentage with. At large tournaments, I routinely cleaned up against decks that we should win against, broke even or came close to it against a surprisingly selection of decks you might think we'd always lose to (Turbo Depths, Storm) and auto lost versus certain decks (Post, Mono Red Stompy, etc).
I took a break from the game just before we got a bunch of new toys (Castle Lochtwain, Liliana's Triumph, Elderspell) and before the W6 scourge was printed. Now that my other life obligations are all set, I'm getting back in post-W6 and I'm quite sure my build still has legs with the only new obstacle being Oko.

List

1 Cursed Scroll
1 Nerher Spirit
4 Liliana, of the Veil
1/2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
=9/10

4 Dark Ritual
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
1/2 Toxic Deluge
=25/26

1 Trinisphere

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Maze of Ith
1 Cabal Pit
7 Swamps
1 Blast Zone
1 Castle Lochtwain

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the void
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 The Abyss
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Trinisphere
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Liliana the last hope
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Ensnaring Bridge

Maybe
Elderspell
Lilianas Triumph
Ashiok, Dream Render
Leyline of Sanctity



The efficacy in the deck comes from several core strategies:
- this must be played like mono red stumpy in that you must sequence your cards correctly and know you and your opponents outs based on any game state
- this deck is build to beat almost any creature based win condition. But, you have to use your life as a resource and know when to turn the corner
- I have reduced the win conditions to an absolute minimum.
- this deck is a resource denial deck at it's very core, it is not a true prison deck. There are better prison builds. I identify whatever resource the opponent is dry on and lean on that resource in a particular game.

I think Blast Zone and Castle Lochtwain fit in fairly seamlessly replacing 2 Basic Swamps. Going down from 9 to 7. We will see if that reduces the mana stability too much.
Ashiok, Dream Render could replace the sideboard Leyline of the Void, making us weaker to graveyard strategies but stronger against a range of other strategies. Also, we could run less than 4, opening up sideboard space.
How big are walkers right now? Would running some # of Elderspell be worth it? It's very narrow and between pithing needle and ratchet bomb, we have broader answers.
Liliana's Triump seems great, but I'm not sure I like replacing Innocent Blood because the curve matters

Oh, fwiw, in 100 plus matches, I was winning ~55 percent of games. And 60% plus of matches. This is based off of memory, I had it tracked via spreadsheet and my computer died. I'll see if I can find it archived anywhere.

24 lands, 2 of which don't produce mana, 4 of which are likely to be sacrificed like a spell. Do you have consistency issues with this in a deck that often self sacrifices?

[OmniStrata]

Does anyone think these could be reliable under a mana denial strategy with

4 Smallpox
4 Wastelands
1 Pox
1 Nether Void?

Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
Dreadhorde Invasion

[Michael Keller]

I think Ashiok, Dream Render is criminally underrated in this archetype. Dark Ritualing into this on turn one is back breaking for fetches, which is really what you're locking down and eliminating mana with.

[PirateKing]

I'm slowing reacquiring cards to build an old style traditional Pox with Smallpox and Sinkholes.
The Elderspell and Blast Zone and Castle Locthwain and Ashiok have all come together to really aid in plugging the gaps we normally struggled with. Resolved artifacts and enchantments are still an issue, but you can't have everything.
I think the format is a turn and a half slower and more people are either trying to beat this by playing fast into blowouts from either Plague Engineer or Veil of Summer, or durdling behind 3/3 Elk tokens and a wall of protection.
Basic land counts are high, and people feel safe, so I think it's a good time to demonstrate otherwise.
I'm confidant I can consistently develop a boardstate where we're both hellbent and they're low on mana; the goal will be to end the game before they can accrue enough resources again or land a pesky threat. That has always been the problem, but at least currently, that's the only problem now that land destruction is live again.

[Michael Keller]

I think Pox's stock got way higher now that W6 is gone. You couldn't realistically deny mana with Pox and hope to get ahead with that card in existence.

[bruizar]

I'm slowing reacquiring cards to build an old style traditional Pox with Smallpox and Sinkholes.
The Elderspell and Blast Zone and Castle Locthwain and Ashiok have all come together to really aid in plugging the gaps we normally struggled with. Resolved artifacts and enchantments are still an issue, but you can't have everything.
I think the format is a turn and a half slower and more people are either trying to beat this by playing fast into blowouts from either Plague Engineer or Veil of Summer, or durdling behind 3/3 Elk tokens and a wall of protection.
Basic land counts are high, and people feel safe, so I think it's a good time to demonstrate otherwise.
I'm confidant I can consistently develop a boardstate where we're both hellbent and they're low on mana; the goal will be to end the game before they can accrue enough resources again or land a pesky threat. That has always been the problem, but at least currently, that's the only problem now that land destruction is live again.

I've got Foil Encroaches sitting around here. I really want to run them once in an aggressive mana destruction list, then discard them to liliana, collective brutality or smallpox later when you no longer need them. One day I will dare play with them.

[OmniStrata]

I think Ashiok, Dream Render is criminally underrated in this archetype. Dark Ritualing into this on turn one is back breaking for fetches, which is really what you're locking down and eliminating mana with.

I use him as a main deck answer for GY shenanigans. For something faster, I have Surgical Extraction in the SB. Punishing greedy mana bases is the tastiest icing on this cake. Pox typically can't handle GY based degeneracy. Ashiok takes care of both that and fetchlands and tutoring. :laugh: Let's not forget, it's their turn to be mind sculpted!! :wink::wink::mad:

[kombatkiwi]

I think Pox's stock got way higher now that W6 is gone. You couldn't realistically deny mana with Pox and hope to get ahead with that card in existence.

True, but oko and veil are also pretty annoying
I think as long as Oko is a relevant card it gives enchantment-based options a significant upside compared to artifacts (even moreso than previous cards with a similar influence like Kolaghans Command or Abrade)


OmniStrata
Does anyone think these could be reliable under a mana denial strategy with

4 Smallpox
4 Wastelands
1 Pox
1 Nether Void?

Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
Dreadhorde Invasion

Invasion seems worse than bitterblossom because going big on 1 token is a nonbo with smallpox/innocent blood.
I think Davriel is a fine card but you can't play too many 3drops and there are a lot of other ones vying for your consideration (crucible, last hope, bridge, etc)

Something like the list ClimbGneiss posted is close to what I think is good

[Seymour_Asses]

mono red stumpy
I'm mindblown that I've never thought to call it this before, but I shall whenever possible from now on.

Also, it's great that W6 is dead. I think I'm finally going to nut up and put together a Pox list!

Awesome! Joining the ranks of the uh... what do you guys call yourselves? The Diseased?

[OmniStrata]

I'm mindblown that I've never thought to call it this before, but I shall whenever possible from now on.

Also, it's great that W6 is dead. I think I'm finally going to nut up and put together a Pox list!

Awesome! Joining the ranks of the uh... what do you guys call yourselves? The Diseased?

Survivors. Pox players have to fight under the worst case scenario: Low Lands, Low threats & Low cards in hand. We have our foes suffer alongside us. :laugh:

[Seymour_Asses]

Survivors. Pox players have to fight under the worst case scenario: Low Lands, Low threats & Low cards in hand. We have our foes suffer alongside us. :laugh:
Hahaha, yes...
Must...
share...
pain...

[bruizar]

I'm mindblown that I've never thought to call it this before, but I shall whenever possible from now on.

Also, it's great that W6 is dead. I think I'm finally going to nut up and put together a Pox list!

Awesome! Joining the ranks of the uh... what do you guys call yourselves? The Diseased?

The Prince, a Machiavellian Machinarium - a machine that grinds creatures, lands, hands and life points. Pox is about making the others lose rather than winning yourself.

[Seymour_Asses]

The Prince, a Machiavellian Machinarium - a machine that grinds creatures, lands, hands and life points. Pox is about making the others lose rather than winning yourself.
...And a terrible time was had by all!

[PirateKing]

I have forgotten nobody wants to play against Pox online if they don't have to.
Right now I'm 3-0 but one match they scooped game 1 after they mulled to 5 and I opened with Swamp into Thoughtseize, then game 2 I play Swamp into Thoughtseize T1 and a second Thoughtseize T2 and they scoop.
Another match was over after T2 Smallpox, user disconnected.

Guess I'm going to have to pin them down in paper events where they have nowhere to run to

[Seymour_Asses]

I have forgotten nobody wants to play against Pox online if they don't have to.
Right now I'm 3-0 but one match they scooped game 1 after they mulled to 5 and I opened with Swamp into Thoughtseize, then game 2 I play Swamp into Thoughtseize T1 and a second Thoughtseize T2 and they scoop.
Another match was over after T2 Smallpox, user disconnected.

Guess I'm going to have to pin them down in paper events where they have nowhere to run to
Some people can't take their medicine. Use the "airplane technique"!

[jafar]

Hello all,

long time reader here (and long time player too...:tongue:).

I would like to show you my verion of mono B Pox. Due to budget issue I don't own (nor i can afford to buy) PW or old Legends cards. So please don't judge me to hard.

The idea is try to be competitive still having fun.


4 smallpox
4 duress
4 hymn to tourach
3 pox
3 dark ritual
4 sinkhole
1 bontu's last reckoning
4 chimeric idol
1 phyrexian totem
1 haunted plate mail
1 nether spirit
3 bloodghast
3 torment of scarabs

20 swamp
4 wasteland



Some explanations:

all my closers are immune to my sac effects and can be activated mostly without mana (the good old idol).

The mana base is very solid but still run 4 wasteland to support the disruption package in the main. On this I still maindeck 4 sinkhole to grab that basic or just to screw up more on non-basic. I saw a lot of decks run on 18/20 lands total. No fetchland, even if they give some pseudo haste to our ghasts, because i want the highest number possible of "real" lands due to the 3 big poxes.

The dark ritual are a necessary evil to cast the cc4 permanent.

And here are the two controversial cards:

- Plate mail : a "big" idol that coul be activated in response to nether or before to play a land to recur ghasts
- Torment of scarabs: a budget but still effective replacement for The Abyss that , otoh, hit not on only creature and help a lot our denial strategy.

The only cards i still miss is good old innocent blood (and in general a 1cc effective removal).

Speaking of sideboard I'm not very sold about nothing in particular, I don't have a defined meta.

So, those are my 2 cents, fell free to suggest!

Thanks

Bye

[PirateKing]

Something like 1-2 Ashiok, Dream Render would be good, turn 1 Dark Ritual into Ashiok can be lights out for many decks, and doesn't present many outright downsides in normal casting situations. Budget friendly.
Also 2-4 Castle Locthwain would help overall, there isn't much better card draw in Pox right now. Is also budget friendly.
Lastly, 2-3 The Elderspell will help deal with Planeswalkers. You'll lose lots of games where they keep lands long enough to cast Oko, then no amount of your hate cards will save you from an Elk-y death. A friend of the budget as well.

[ronco]

Hello all,


How budget are you trying to be? I think fetch lands would go great with the bloodghast.


Having outs to some dead cards down the line might be useful. Cursed scroll, for example or perhaps even scroll of fate?. You have a lot of ways to get the opponent hellbent quickly, and then eventually you will keep drawing more and more discard/LD/whatever with nothing to do with them. Collective Brutality in the board may help here too. Life gain might help a touch vs burn (which is not a good matchup vs big pox), and gives you more discard/targeted removal for little guys. Just some thought there.

Shrieking affliction might be of interest to you as well. Plays especially well with your Torment of Scarabs.

Also, what PirateKing above said as well.

[OmniStrata]

@jafar Pox has trouble keeping cards in hand so synergy with hellbent spells work in awkward ways.

Since you don't run 8 colorless lands, no Mishra's factory, you could sideboard Blood Scrivener for longer games when you're both just topdecking. It'll keep you ahead by a card consistently as long as you're constantly casting and can clock your opponent. It's a Poxed Bob in a manner of speaking. The lack of Innocent Blood works in his favor.

If you include Mishra's factory, Sea Gate wreckage with Scrivener draws you 2 cards every other turn. I run them with Liliana though. You could replace her with Bottomless Pit if you're feeling evil.

[PirateKing]

Omni you still on Sea Gate Wreckage? I dropped mine for Castle Locthwain and haven't looked back.

[OmniStrata]

Omni you still on Sea Gate Wreckage? I dropped mine for Castle Locthwain and haven't looked back.

Been bolted too many times for my enjoyment. Burn, Canadian Thresh, fast agro can cause you to treasure HP a bit more than most. I'm against Thoughtseize because of this. But that's a meta call. If you have a durdle meta, then use that HP asap! :cool:

I'm a fan of synergy and some cards counterintuitively benefit you on hellbent. Draw more when you're out? I'll take some. Unlike Bob, it's always 1 HP only. However, some Pox builds are on 27+ lands. Siding in Bob works against grind matches. Gotta ditch the Innocent Bloods though.

[PirateKing]

It's mostly tapping for black. Not having to worry about T2 Hymn or Smallpox casting is a big relief.
The life isn't the worst, since 95% of the time it's 1 life anyway since by the time you have 4 lands our you're pretty empty anyway. But in the circumstance when you Castle a land and draw a land for turn, you're not cut off from taking 2 damage to dig one deeper.
But I can feel the frustration from losing to Burn, that's not an easy matchup for us

[ronco]

@jafar Pox has trouble keeping cards in hand so synergy with hellbent spells work in awkward ways.

Since you don't run 8 colorless lands, no Mishra's factory, you could sideboard Blood Scrivener for longer games when you're both just topdecking. It'll keep you ahead by a card consistently as long as you're constantly casting and can clock your opponent. It's a Poxed Bob in a manner of speaking. The lack of Innocent Blood works in his favor.

If you include Mishra's factory, Sea Gate wreckage with Scrivener draws you 2 cards every other turn. I run them with Liliana though. You could replace her with Bottomless Pit if you're feeling evil.

To piggy back on the scrivener suggestion, Asylum Visitor works similarly, can be "cast" off a smallpox discard (avoiding the sacrifice, assuming 2 extra mana is up), works on opponents being hellbent, and adds an extra power to the stats. Not saying its strictly better, but I think an argument can be made if Jafar wants to go that route.

[OmniStrata]

To piggy back on the scrivener suggestion, Asylum Visitor works similarly, can be "cast" off a smallpox discard (avoiding the sacrifice, assuming 2 extra mana is up), works on opponents being hellbent, and adds an extra power to the stats. Not saying its strictly better, but I think an argument can be made if Jafar wants to go that route.

Oh. I forgot about her. A massive boon for Liliana of the Veil addicts & 3 power is the sweet spot for a creature @ 2 CMC. :laugh:

[bruizar]

Lo and behold, I bring to you a rough sketch of the hotness that is...

KROX-A-POX


https://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=476472&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=464157&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=464062&type=card

Krox-a-Pox

14 1-drops
2 Storm World
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Unearth

13 2-drops
4 Small Pox
1 Collective Brutality
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Kroxa, Titan of Death’s Hunger

13 3-drops
4 Lightning Skelemental
3 Kolaghan’s Command
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
40

22 Land
4 Badlands
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Snow-Covered Mountain

62 cards! Yes, 2 must be cut. I told you it was rough!

The Plan

The idea is to pressure hand and life total and solve Pox's terrible topdeck mode. Kroxa can finally ensure that you have an aggressive game ender to capitalize on all the early disruption.

The Stuff to Consider

- Davriel and Storm World are playing the role of The Rack.
- If you Hellbent your opponent, Kroxa deals 3 damage from its ability
- Skelemental is a Blightning that deals 6 instead of 3 damage and can hit Planeswalkers
- Skelemental with Unearth is pure spice
- You can unearth a Skelemental that you discarded to Smallpox, Kolaghan's Command, Liliana of the Veil or Collective Brutality if you aren't in the position to hardcast it
- Kroxa's escape is tailor made for Pox's full graveyard and topdeck mode
- Kroxa can also be Unearthed for 1 mana to deal 3 damage or discard another card if you need to get to hellbent quickly
- The advantage of Storm World compared to The Rack is that it dodges artifact removal and deals a maximum of 4 damage every turn instead of 3, it is symmetrical but you should be able to race
- Dark Ritual cannot be played in a deck that requires RR for Kroxa's Escape and Lightning Skelemental
- Kolaghan's Command is your swiss-army knife. Usually played for a shock+discard, but also gives you maindeck artifact hate, more creature removal and the occasional end-of-turn raise dead on Lightning Skelemental. Drawstep discard buys you valuable hellbent turns.
- Lightning Skelemental is really good at punishing stupid cantripping Coatls!
- Lightning Skelemental one-shots a 6 loyalty Oko with haste!

2 Cards on the chopping block:
1 Collective Brutality - Reduces my hand size too quickly!
1 Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage - I got so many 3 drops already and Liliana also discards!


Suggested sideboard plan:

3 Leyline of the void
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 The Abyss
1 Dead of Winter
1 Angrath’s Rampage
1 Engineered Plague
1 Darkblast
2 Blood Moon
1 Price of Progress


Leyline of the void - Sometimes life is leyline or bust
Surgical Extraction - When you don't want to side in leylines, but want to snipe away a dark depths, arcanist or snapcaster target
Sphere of Resistance - You should already have a good match against combo, but a Sphere to seal the deal is nice. Also considered Pyrostatic Pillar and Eidolon of the Great Revel. Couldn't really decide. What do you suggest?
Chains of Mephistopheles - Shutting down Brainstorms and Bedlam Revelers
The Abyss - Skelemental dies EOT and Kroxa can just recur every turn. Might need to be cut. What do you think?
Dead of Winter - Doesn't cost any life, so that's a plus against Toxic Deluge. Can't kill a gigantic creature though we don't want to pay that life anyway.
Angrath’s Rampage - Silver bullet against Oko, yet doubles as removal against artifacts, mainly Chalice of the Void. Better than Dreadbore or Bedevil.
Engineered Plague - Versatile permanent removal.
Darkblast - Dredge fills the graveyard for Kroxa and you don't need to draw a Kroxa if you mill into it. Good enough?
Blood Moon - Shut greedy Delver decks down, but be sure to fetch 2 swamps first
Price of Progress - The ultimate finisher against aggressive delver decks

Suggestions are welcome!

[ronco]

Looks fun! The only downside I see with storm world is it's world super type. So you cant get multiples out (in a very corner case youd also lose it to an opponent's enchant world, though I dont think many of those are running around). Any interest in shrieking affliction instead?

Edit to add that it's still a sweet excuse to play that card though!

[bruizar]

Looks fun! The only downside I see with storm world is it's world super type. So you cant get multiples out (in a very corner case youd also lose it to an opponent's enchant world, though I dont think many of those are running around). Any interest in shrieking affliction instead?

Edit to add that it's still a sweet excuse to play that card though!

I did consider Shrieking Affliction. I took a look at modern 8-rack, modern rakdos 8-rack, and bunch of monocolored and multicolored legacy pox variants. My issue with Shrieking Affliction is that it doesn't do anything unless the hand size is already at 1 or hellbent. I want it to hurt as soon and as hard as possible.

The nostalgia factor is strong with Storm World. I used to play with it many many years ago (Stormpox list with 4x The Rack, 2x Storm World, 4x Bolt+Blightning). Back then I was able to manage the self-inflicted life loss from Storm World, but I have no idea if Storm World is too aggressive on the life total in this list. If you are running up against a food token every turn, it's bad. If that happens then I'll try The Rack, Shrieking Affliction or more Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage.

The Enchant Worldness conflicts with The Abyss which is kind of terrible, but luckily the more important card (Chains of Mephistopheles) is not an Enchant World. The list doesn't play dark rituals to power out Nether Void so I doubt that one belongs in this list.


I really wanted to play Ashiok, Dream Render as it self-mills Kroxa, exiles opponent's graveyard and shut down fetchlands but I thought Davriel was more important for the game plan as you want Kroxa's ability to inflict 3 life loss, and we're not playing dark ritual to power out turn 1 Planeswalkers anyway (which might be its biggest weakness compared to stock pox lists).

[kombatkiwi]

4 Kroxa is way too many because it's not a good card to cast (RB for ravens crime OR lava spike? Yuck) and you don't have enough self-mill to support escaping multiple
That's also a lot of 3drops for a smallpox deck (also you need to pay 4 to escape the titan)
Overall I think the list is maybe veering into the "Thoughtseize plus Burn" problem zone. (Would you play mindrot in pox? No, it's too mana inefficient. Would you play 1BB for a ball lightning in pox? No, you're an attrition deck and don't want to spew cards just to deal damage. Does combining these two things produce a card that you actually want? Unconvincing...)

Kroxa is kind of cool and if escaping it was just BBBB I might be interested in playing it in a stock list as a 1 of but I don't think this splash is worth it.

[Mr. Safety]

Lo and behold, I bring to you a rough sketch of the hotness that is...

KROX-A-POX

*Super-Sexy Deck*


Suggestions are welcome!

A couple of things come immediately to mind: Storm World, while being excellent as an older card, affects you as well as your opponent. Without a way to reward you for low life, like Death's Shadow, I think The Rack and Shrieking Affliction are the cards you want. I don't think either are necessary though, because I think you could be all-in on the Unearth plan.

I think a package of Faithless Looting, Unearth, and Pox-effects/creatures would be incredible. Smallpox turns into not only a control element, but an enabler of really powerful and efficient plays. Short list of potential playables:

Fleshbag Marauder
Fulminator Mage
Murderous Rider
Ball Lightning
Hellspark Elemental
Bloodghast


I think you could have a dedicated number of hand disruption spells (Thoughtseize, Hymn), Smallpox, Faithless Looting, Unearth, and value reanimator targets (Krox, Skelemental, Marauder, Fulminator.) Once you round out the deck with PW's and some dedicated removal like Fatal Push/Lightning Bolt/Collective Brutality you should have a pretty cool Pox deck that has a grindy plan.

I think playing Blood Moon maindeck would be incredible, if only the format wasn't trending away from non-basic manabases. It's definitely a sideboard card until something big changes.

[bruizar]

A couple of things come immediately to mind: Storm World, while being excellent as an older card, affects you as well as your opponent. Without a way to reward you for low life, like Death's Shadow, I think The Rack and Shrieking Affliction are the cards you want. I don't think either are necessary though, because I think you could be all-in on the Unearth plan.

I think a package of Faithless Looting, Unearth, and Pox-effects/creatures would be incredible. Smallpox turns into not only a control element, but an enabler of really powerful and efficient plays. Short list of potential playables:

Fleshbag Marauder
Fulminator Mage
Murderous Rider
Ball Lightning
Hellspark Elemental
Bloodghast


I think you could have a dedicated number of hand disruption spells (Thoughtseize, Hymn), Smallpox, Faithless Looting, Unearth, and value reanimator targets (Krox, Skelemental, Marauder, Fulminator.) Once you round out the deck with PW's and some dedicated removal like Fatal Push/Lightning Bolt/Collective Brutality you should have a pretty cool Pox deck that has a grindy plan.

I think playing Blood Moon maindeck would be incredible, if only the format wasn't trending away from non-basic manabases. It's definitely a sideboard card until something big changes.

We could up +1 Unearth but we would need the best creatures to Unearth, that's normally Fulminator Mage/Dreadhorde Arcanist/Snapcaster Mage/Monastery Mentor/Seasoned Pyromancer, Death's Shadow. However, I think Liliana, Heretical Healer would be more fitting because Skelemental and Kroxa flip it and the discard ability is a +2 and the -X ability brings back Skelemental. All the abilities are great for this deck but I'm not sure if you can reliably get her to flip because the deck is creature light. I'm not too comfortable in a pox deck to rely on a second creature on the battlefield. All in all I wouldn't go for this myself.


The card suggestions you made lack the oomph that Skelemental has. Murderous Rider doesn't really work unfortunately because you don't Unearth the Spellside, and if you cast it it's in exile so the card can't be Unearthed until it is in your graveyard. Then you get a 2/3 lifelink that goes to the bottom instead of your graveyard when it dies. If we could Unearth the spellside, I'd def try this.

Of the cards you mentioned,Seasoned Pyromancer and Fulminator Mage are by far the best one. Fulminator could work but you'd need to build a deck around Sinkhole and perhaps even Shadow of Doubt to 'sinkhole' fetch lands or Encroach and go all in on the mana denial plan. Death's Shadow could also be played alongside Storm World, but you're better of playing a dedicated Death's Shadow deck then.

2 or 3 Faithless Looting is the right card for this deck. With the lack of draw and the ability of looting to set up Kroxa, this looks pretty strong. Unfortunately it isn't card advantage but card disadvantage, but that might be ok because you can just cast it and mill yourself hoping to set up or hit a Kroxa.

Don't laugh me out here but if this is the plan, maybe we can dust off 1 off Squee, Goblin Nabob. It provides card advantage with Smallpox, Liliana, Faithless Looting, and Collective Brutality after all.

I had to make that work I'd go for:
-1 Collective Brutality
- 2 Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
-1 Storm World
+3 Faithless Looting
+1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

Not sure if it reduces the decks aggression too much though. It seems to move away too much from emptying opponent's hand and punishing him for it.

[Mr. Safety]

Did anyone else see this pox-less 'Pox' deck?

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24384&f=LE

[bruizar]

Did anyone else see this pox-less 'Pox' deck?

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24384&f=LE

Yes! Such an interesting list. I understand why he chose not to run small pox, the land sets you back a lot too. Between the 3CMC pw's and murderous rider, you really need your third land.

[Miscanthus]

Yes! Such an interesting list. I understand why he chose not to run small pox, the land sets you back a lot too. Between the 3CMC pw's and murderous rider, you really need your third land.

Interesting to note here too, that this discard heavy list did so well at a decent-sized tournament in a meta full of Veil of Summer.

[Seymour_Asses]

Yes! Such an interesting list. I understand why he chose not to run small pox, the land sets you back a lot too. Between the 3CMC pw's and murderous rider, you really need your third land.

Or a Dark Ritual. That list looks pretty cool but it seems to have a ton of things that make you pay life.

[bruizar]

Or a Dark Ritual. That list looks pretty cool but it seems to have a ton of things that make you pay life.

I guess the lifelink of Murderous Rider helps?

[FTW]

That list looks pretty cool but it seems to have a ton of things that make you pay life.

But it doesn't have Pox or Smallpox, and it does have more creature removal and a lifelink body, so maybe that balances out.

Also look at the meta. How many of those decks pressure life total? A good chunk play the game plan of doing 0 damage and then Go For the Throat all at once (Storm, Miracles, Dark Depths, etc..).

[Mr. Safety]

Or a Dark Ritual. That list looks pretty cool but it seems to have a ton of things that make you pay life.

Nine cards doesn't seem like a 'ton' to me. It's basically Bitterblossom, Noxious Revival, Murderous Rider, and Castle Locthwain. Of those the only one that could genuinely cause a game loss is Bitterblossom, which is so good against the blue decks that I can't see ever losing if you resolve a Bitterblossom and continue to pressure their hand. It's bad against Burn decks, but Pox has always been soft to burn. It might be soft to dredge, but with 4x maindeck Ashiok I think the matchup is winnable g1 if Dark Ritual is in the mix, post board gets a lot better. The other aggressive deck is UR Delver, but that deck isn't as problematic as Burn because the discard and removal go a lot further.

This is just a good pile of black cards, honestly. It has a Rock-type feel to it with likely 50% or better matchups against most of the field with the sideboard slanting it in your favor g2-3.

[ronco]

The land mix looks most interesting to me. with 2 maze of ith and no urborgs, only 20 mana producing lands, 4 of which are wastelands. Clearly it worked for the pilot but it doesn't seem like it would on paper. I guess that was the trade off for dark rits? Lots of 3 mana and a lone 4 mana spell.

But i guess if you aren't saccing your own to pox/smallpox then its less necessary.

[Mr. Safety]

The land mix looks most interesting to me. with 2 maze of ith and no urborgs, only 20 mana producing lands, 4 of which are wastelands. Clearly it worked for the pilot but it doesn't seem like it would on paper. I guess that was the trade off for dark rits? Lots of 3 mana and a lone 4 mana spell.

But i guess if you aren't saccing your own to pox/smallpox then its less necessary.

I totally missed no Urborgs, that seems pretty weird to me. I agree that without Pox effects it is a little more stable, but with only 22 lands it seems pretty thin, even with Dark Rituals. I would put DR's at about 1/2 a land as far as mana calculation, so he basically has '24' lands/mana sources. He was also not playing Factories, which makes sense if he's not playing hard into the Pox strategy, but still looks weird.

[Seymour_Asses]

Nine cards doesn't seem like a 'ton' to me. It's basically Bitterblossom, Noxious Revival, Murderous Rider, and Castle Locthwain. Of those the only one that could genuinely cause a game loss is Bitterblossom, which is so good against the blue decks that I can't see ever losing if you resolve a Bitterblossom and continue to pressure their hand. It's bad against Burn decks, but Pox has always been soft to burn. It might be soft to dredge, but with 4x maindeck Ashiok I think the matchup is winnable g1 if Dark Ritual is in the mix, post board gets a lot better. The other aggressive deck is UR Delver, but that deck isn't as problematic as Burn because the discard and removal go a lot further.

This is just a good pile of black cards, honestly. It has a Rock-type feel to it with likely 50% or better matchups against most of the field with the sideboard slanting it in your favor g2-3.

My count is 13, which is over 20% of the deck.

It does look pretty solid though, I might have to give it a shot.

[Mr. Safety]

My count is 13, which is over 20% of the deck.

It does look pretty solid though, I might have to give it a shot.

Oh, I wasn't counting fetchlands.

[OmniStrata]

So even here, the conclusion is that pox and by extension, Smallpox is so bad, they must be omitted from the deck... As if striking all resources at once is just 'bad design'. "If you want to win, play another deck!!" I suppose that is the point... The discord guys have decided to calling it the monoblack deck and simply dropping pox to be more "inclusive". Just my opinion: If you're not hitting all resources at once with a single spell, you are NOT a pox (resource denial) deck.

Flame suit equipped*! I suppose someone with more wisdom than myself should reboot a pox deck thread. Unless someone can point me to another good deck that's budget friendly and goes after land resources.

I've already left the discord server because there's no place for me there. I suppose exile is the traditionalist's path. But before I go, perhaps this blueprint could help:
It was my personal update to a latest version.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2218439#paper

Was figuring out what sideboard to swap for Dystopia as a one-of. Some said Last Hope.

[bruizar]

So even here, the conclusion is that pox and by extension, Smallpox is so bad, they must be omitted from the deck... As if striking all resources at once is just 'bad design'. "If you want to win, play another deck!!" I suppose that is the point... The discord guys have decided to calling it the monoblack deck and simply dropping pox to be more "inclusive". Just my opinion: If you're not hitting all resources at once with a single spell, you are NOT a pox (resource denial) deck.

Flame suit equipped*! I suppose someone with more wisdom than myself should reboot a pox deck thread. Unless someone can point me to another good deck that's budget friendly and goes after land resources.

I've already left the discord server because there's no place for me there. I suppose exile is the traditionalist's path. But before I go, perhaps this blueprint could help:
It was my personal update to a latest version.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2218439#paper

Was figuring out what sideboard to swap for Dystopia as a one-of. Some said Last Hope.

The problem with small pox is that, at best it offers parity on turn 2.
-1 land, -1 card in hand, -1 creature, -1 or 2 mana for the creature
vs
-1 land, -1 card in hand, -1 smallpox, -2 mana for the small pox

I tried to improve that draw back with Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger and Lightning Skelemental, Unearth, old lists used to do that with cards as diverse as Flagstones of Trokair, Bloodghast, Dakmor Salvage, Nether Spirit, etc. but those cards are bad in the first place (read: low impact, nothing against playing bad cards in the right role+meta). I am considering Squee, Goblin Nabob as an engine card with 4 Smallpox, Liliana of the Veil's and maybe Collective Brutality. This way you can turn the symmetry in your favor. I still like Small Pox a lot.

Conceptually, the Escape mechanic offers a lot of room for innovation with Small Pox.

The escape options in mono black:
Fruit of Tizerus
Cling to Dust
Mogis's Favor
Pharika's Spawn
Underworld Charger
Woe Strider

White splash:
Elspeth, Sun's Nemesis
Sentinel's Eyes


Red splash:
Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
Underworld Breach
Escape Velocity
Phoenix of Ash
Satyr's Cunning
Underworld Rage-Hound


Of these, I like these the most:

* Elspeth (In a build together with Flagstones of Trokair you can smallpox Flagstones and Elspeth, making small pox assymetrical, although u need to build to 6 mana.)
* Kroxa as per the build I posted
* Mogis's Favor (More removal that doesn't cost you a draw)
* Satyr's Cunning (Cheap!)
* Pharika's Spawn (Requires a lot of mana but gives you extra edicts)
* Maybe Woe Strider but 5 mana is again a lot

Most of these options are too expensive to compete with Nether Spirit. I like Kroxa the best, but wouldn't argue with someone that would try a white splash either. Breach could be part of a combo finish but i'll let someone else be so adventurous to try that.

[PirateKing]

I still run Smallpox and like it a lot, but typically it's not the turn 2 play you ever want to make.
Against their first creature I'd rather be Innocent Blood or going after them with Thoughtseize. Then Hymn or Sinkhole.

Smallpox really does better in the turn 3 and beyond, once you know you're not hobbling your own mana (going from 3 to 2 is safe with no lands in hand, 2 to 1 without land in hand is not). Either as a Force fodder for a followup Liliana or after landing Liliana, it's the card that helps you shift the momentum back to you only after your opponent thinks they are established in the board state.

It's not an easy card to play, so the beginners are bound to misplay. It's not Delver, just because the deck is called Pox it doesn't mean it's about jamming Smallpox on the first opportunity.

[Mr. Safety]

I still run Smallpox and like it a lot, but typically it's not the turn 2 play you ever want to make.
Against their first creature I'd rather be Innocent Blood or going after them with Thoughtseize. Then Hymn or Sinkhole.

Smallpox really does better in the turn 3 and beyond, once you know you're not hobbling your own mana (going from 3 to 2 is safe with no lands in hand, 2 to 1 without and in hand is not). Either as a Force fodder for a followup Liliana or after landing Liliana, it's the card that helps you shift the momentum back to you only after your opponent thinks they are established in the board state.

It's not an easy card to play, so the beginners are bound to misplay. It;s not Delver, just because the deck is called Pox it doesn't mean it;s about jamming Smallpox on the first opportunity.

I just want to say that there is a lot of wisdom in this post. When I was playing Pox back when I was getting back into Legacy Smallpox was always better in the mid-game. Decks fighting the discard/removal/PW's end up using a lot of resources to keep up. This sets them up for a devastating Smallpox. Smallpox t2 can be correct if you have lands in hand to rebuild, but otherwise timing is everything.

I would also argue that this was one result. Just because one deck does well without Smallpox doesn't mean it's incorrect to play them; it means someone found a way to metagame a mono-black control deck to success without Smallpox. Looking at the current metgame at large, Wasteland is at a low level right now. It's hard to double team opponent's mana without Wasteland to augment Smallpox. So it only follows that if Wasteland isn't particularly great right now then Smallpox's land denial probably isn't great either. Cheaper removal that allows you to develop your mana, and subsequently play fewer than the 24-27 lands that Pox usually needs to run, seemed like a good decision.

Last thought: Bitterblossom, Dreadhorde Invasion, and Liliana the Last Hope are all backbreaking threats against Miracles/4C/Grixis control decks. Take that little nugget of information and use it for when you're putting together an updated Pox list.