[Primer/Deck] Pox

[bruizar]

would also argue that this was one result. Just because one deck does well without Smallpox doesn't mean it's incorrect to play them; it means someone found a way to metagame a mono-black control deck to success without Smallpox.

This!

[OmniStrata]

I just want to say that there is a lot of wisdom in this post. When I was playing Pox back when I was getting back into Legacy Smallpox was always better in the mid-game. Decks fighting the discard/removal/PW's end up using a lot of resources to keep up. This sets them up for a devastating Smallpox. Smallpox t2 can be correct if you have lands in hand to rebuild, but otherwise timing is everything.

I would also argue that this was one result. Just because one deck does well without Smallpox doesn't mean it's incorrect to play them; it means someone found a way to metagame a mono-black control deck to success without Smallpox. Looking at the current metgame at large, Wasteland is at a low level right now. It's hard to double team opponent's mana without Wasteland to augment Smallpox. So it only follows that if Wasteland isn't particularly great right now then Smallpox's land denial probably isn't great either. Cheaper removal that allows you to develop your mana, and subsequently play fewer than the 24-27 lands that Pox usually needs to run, seemed like a good decision.

Last thought: Bitterblossom, Dreadhorde Invasion, and Liliana the Last Hope are all backbreaking threats against Miracles/4C/Grixis control decks. Take that little nugget of information and use it for when you're putting together an updated Pox list.

Many thanks people! Good to know there's still love for the fringe! If winning was all I truly cared about, I'd just live in the DtB section but there's no LD up there in the must win decks outside RUG Delver.

[ronco]

I'd be happy to pilot this later this week if anyone wants a write up on it. I'm not the OP on the deck but can at least give it some feedback vs live opponents. I had plans on going back to a more aggro, discard heavy build but wouldn't mind testing out this deck. Seems light on wincons/pressure but that's kind of pox's jam anyway.

[bruizar]

I'd be happy to pilot this later this week if anyone wants a write up on it. I'm not the OP on the deck but can at least give it some feedback vs live opponents. I had plans on going back to a more aggro, discard heavy build but wouldn't mind testing out this deck. Seems light on wincons/pressure but that's kind of pox's jam anyway.

I would be very curious to learn from your experience

[ronco]

I would be very curious to learn from your experience

okie dokie. I promise to play it sub optimally and report back friday or sometime over the weekend!

[Mr. Safety]

I'd be happy to pilot this later this week if anyone wants a write up on it. I'm not the OP on the deck but can at least give it some feedback vs live opponents. I had plans on going back to a more aggro, discard heavy build but wouldn't mind testing out this deck. Seems light on wincons/pressure but that's kind of pox's jam anyway.

I'm always up for Pox reports! My biggest barrier to playing Pox recently is that I traded away my Lilliana of the Veils. I've debated doing something without them, but man, it's one of the real focal points of playing Pox. I could play something else in those slots (ie Sinkhole, etc.) but it just feels sub-optimal. So I stick to other decks for now.

Unless someone has a spicy list without LotV...

[ronco]

I'm always up for Pox reports! My biggest barrier to playing Pox recently is that I traded away my Lilliana of the Veils. I've debated doing something without them, but man, it's one of the real focal points of playing Pox. I could play something else in those slots (ie Sinkhole, etc.) but it just feels sub-optimal. So I stick to other decks for now.

Unless someone has a spicy list without LotV...

I've seen 2 cards recently that act as budget replacements, not sure I'd call them spicy although I want the latter to work real bad:
Bottomless Pit and Torment of Scarabs

That said, Lilis seem to be at or near all time (recently) lows. Not sure if they keep going down or not but is as good a time as any to pick them up if you have good trade fodder.

[ronco]

So of the list, the only card I may not be able to procure in time is the Noxious Revival. I'm wondering if this is double duty for a Murderous rider plus emergency grave hate? If I can't get it I'll probably put in an extirpate or coffin purge to cover most of the functionality. I'm also guessing fetches are to re-shuffle a rider back in from the bottom, as there is no mana fixing or blood ghasts to protect. I feel like the Thoughtseize and IoK should be flipped in numbers but I'm going to trust the pilot on this one at least for the first go.

Lastly, and this is more of a general question - is there an advantage to ratchet bomb over EE? They both wipe tokens and eggs for 2 mana, EE gets 1 cmc for 3 mana the turn you drop it, but in this deck that's as high as it goes. I guess that answers my own question. Only thing EE can do better is get around a chalice on 2, anything else I am overlooking?

22 LANDS
1 Blast Zone
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Castle Locthwain
2 Maze of Ith
9 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

3 CREATURES
3 Murderous Rider

22 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Dark Ritual
2 Fatal Push
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Innocent Blood
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana's Triumph
1 Mastermind's Acquisition
1 Noxious Revival
4 Thoughtseize

13 OTHER SPELLS
4 Ashiok, Dream Render
3 Bitterblossom
1 Dreadhorde Invasion
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope

SIDEBOARD
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Extirpate
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
2 Plague Engineer
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Surgical Extraction

[bruizar]

So of the list, the only card I may not be able to procure in time is the Noxious Revival. I'm wondering if this is double duty for a Murderous rider plus emergency grave hate? If I can't get it I'll probably put in an extirpate or coffin purge to cover most of the functionality. I'm also guessing fetches are to re-shuffle a rider back in from the bottom, as there is no mana fixing or blood ghasts to protect. I feel like the Thoughtseize and IoK should be flipped in numbers but I'm going to trust the pilot on this one at least for the first go.

Lastly, and this is more of a general question - is there an advantage to ratchet bomb over EE? They both wipe tokens and eggs for 2 mana, EE gets 1 cmc for 3 mana the turn you drop it, but in this deck that's as high as it goes. I guess that answers my own question. Only thing EE can do better is get around a chalice on 2, anything else I am overlooking?

22 LANDS
1 Blast Zone
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Castle Locthwain
2 Maze of Ith
9 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

3 CREATURES
3 Murderous Rider

22 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Dark Ritual
2 Fatal Push
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Innocent Blood
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana's Triumph
1 Mastermind's Acquisition
1 Noxious Revival
4 Thoughtseize

13 OTHER SPELLS
4 Ashiok, Dream Render
3 Bitterblossom
1 Dreadhorde Invasion
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope

SIDEBOARD
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Extirpate
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
2 Plague Engineer
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Surgical Extraction

Ratchet bomb can Get problematic enchantments off the board, like counterbalance or other random non 1CC stuff. Also gets the occassional pw i guess? Already have a lot of pw removal though

[OmniStrata]

If you're looking for a reset button, it'd behoove you to consider Nevinyrral's Disc. If 4 cmc is too high, there's also Plague Boiler which can't be needled as it's not activated. You just need to buy 3 turns. Ratchet Bomb is ok. I have used it to kill a Jace before but those were very lucky circumstances where the Jace pilot constantly Brainstormed but couldn't find an answer. I used to run 2 SB The Elderspell which turbo activated a Liliana, the Last Hope twice in the lifetime I used the card.

Big sweepers are good for us but permanent 'blox' are usually more effective I've found: Night of Souls' Betrayal, Plague effects and Ensnaring Bridge make excellent speed bumps in your foe's plan to kill you. Even more so if you're Cursed Scrolling or Racking to a win.

[bruizar]

If you're looking for a reset button, it'd behoove you to consider Nevinyrral's Disc. If 4 cmc is too high, there's also Plague Boiler which can't be needled as it's not activated. You just need to buy 3 turns. Ratchet Bomb is ok. I have used it to kill a Jace before but those were very lucky circumstances where the Jace pilot constantly Brainstormed but couldn't find an answer. I used to run 2 SB The Elderspell which turbo activated a Liliana, the Last Hope twice in the lifetime I used the card.

Big sweepers are good for us but permanent 'blox' are usually more effective I've found: Night of Souls' Betrayal, Plague effects and Ensnaring Bridge make excellent speed bumps in your foe's plan to kill you. Even more so if you're Cursed Scrolling or Racking to a win.

As for sweepers, the best one imo Dead of Winter. You use edict effects to counter cheated creatures anyway.

I like Illness in the Ranks as it castrates Monastery Mentor, Young Pyromancer and Empty the Warrens, all 3 are in top tier decks. Against delver night of souls' betrayal is the ultimate, but also nearly impossible to resolve. For the mana I want The Abyss. I think these are all the options:

Dread of night
the abyss
illness in the ranks
Night of Souls' Betrayal
Engineered Plague
Plague Engineer

[Mr. Safety]

As for sweepers, the best one imo Dead of Winter. You use edict effects to counter cheated creatures anyway.

I like Illness in the Ranks as it castrates Monastery Mentor, Young Pyromancer and Empty the Warrens, all 3 are in top tier decks. Against delver night of souls' betrayal is the ultimate, but also nearly impossible to resolve. For the mana I want The Abyss. I think these are all the options:

Dread of night
the abyss
illness in the ranks
Night of Souls' Betrayal
Engineered Plague
Plague Engineer

Toxic Deluge is likely a little more reliable than Dead of Winter, unless you are dedicated to Astrolabe and a higher than normal SC-Swamp count. I also like Marsh Casualties and Darkblast for sweepers/repeatable removal.

Honestly, Plague Engineer is good enough to be a maindeck card in Pox. It does everything you want, it just doesn't play well with Smallpox/Innocent Blood if he's you're only creature on board. I would want to go deep with it though, with something like Unearth to provide some card draw and combos with Plague Engineer post-Smallpox/blocking.

As for PW's, it's one of the few ways that Pox really can't interact outside of combat (which is usually not enough with anemic threats like Bloodghast, Factory.) Bitterblossom is really good at pressuring planeswalkers, but I wouldn't leave home without some number of Pithing Needle in my sideboard, likely 3.

[bruizar]

Toxic Deluge is likely a little more reliable than Dead of Winter, unless you are dedicated to Astrolabe and a higher than normal SC-Swamp count. I also like Marsh Casualties and Darkblast for sweepers/repeatable removal.

Honestly, Plague Engineer is good enough to be a maindeck card in Pox. It does everything you want, it just doesn't play well with Smallpox/Innocent Blood if he's you're only creature on board. I would want to go deep with it though, with something like Unearth to provide some card draw and combos with Plague Engineer post-Smallpox/blocking.

As for PW's, it's one of the few ways that Pox really can't interact outside of combat (which is usually not enough with anemic threats like Bloodghast, Factory.) Bitterblossom is really good at pressuring planeswalkers, but I wouldn't leave home without some number of Pithing Needle in my sideboard, likely 3.

Black has a lot of stuff against planeswalkers. Murderous Rider does a lot, but you can also sideboard Noxious Grasp to deal with Oko/Teferi. Pithing Needle often catches Abrupt Decay, or in bant match ups, Teferi can clear the way for Oko, and Oko can clear the way for Teferi.

[PirateKing]

I have 3 copies of The Elderspell split in my 75 which is pretty clean.
Having 8 Planeswalkers of my own helps make it complete as an effect.

[ronco]

All cards acquired for the top8 deck I'll be running tonight. I REALLY want to change a few things but out of respect for the pilot and their finish I'll run their list for now. I got a few reps out of it vs a gruul aggro deck last night and the bitterblossoms got my life count scary low (first time main decking these), but i don't expect to be taking multiple ball lightnings on the chin tonight so that should be a huge issue. It was fun hiding behind the bridge when I was able to stick it.

Early thoughts are the deck needs more lands/B mana sources, but we'll see how it really plays out against the field. I'll take as good of notes as I can and get the write up in tomorrow most likely.

[bruizar]

All cards acquired for the top8 deck I'll be running tonight. I REALLY want to change a few things but out of respect for the pilot and their finish I'll run their list for now. I got a few reps out of it vs a gruul aggro deck last night and the bitterblossoms got my life count scary low (first time main decking these), but i don't expect to be taking multiple ball lightnings on the chin tonight so that should be a huge issue. It was fun hiding behind the bridge when I was able to stick it.

Early thoughts are the deck needs more lands/B mana sources, but we'll see how it really plays out against the field. I'll take as good of notes as I can and get the write up in tomorrow most likely.

What I try to do when I play any deck is make pictures with my phone for all my starting hands and make some photos on interesting game states for later analysis. Good luck! Must be hard not to tweak the list!

[Seymour_Asses]

Early thoughts are the deck needs more lands/B mana sources, but we'll see how it really plays out against the field. I'll take as good of notes as I can and get the write up in tomorrow most likely.

Definitely looks like it could use a couple Urborgs.

[ronco]

Write up from tonight, using the exact decklist, Tl;dr at the bottom:
22 LANDS
1 Blast Zone
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Castle Locthwain
2 Maze of Ith
9 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

3 CREATURES
3 Murderous Rider

22 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Dark Ritual
2 Fatal Push
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Innocent Blood
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana's Triumph
1 Mastermind's Acquisition
1 Noxious Revival
4 Thoughtseize

13 OTHER SPELLS
4 Ashiok, Dream Render
3 Bitterblossom
1 Dreadhorde Invasion
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope

SIDEBOARD
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Extirpate
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
2 Plague Engineer
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Surgical Extraction

Round 1, Joshua on Punishing Dack (4 color).
R1G1: On the draw, no mulligans. Opening hand: Wasteland, Castle Lockthwain, 2 ashiok, hymn, lili triump, bitterblossom.
He opens with a U Sea and ponders. I waste his sea.
He follows up with a trop and pass.
I IoK, see Trop, Snappy, P fire, Thoughtseize, and Jace. I take the snappy.
He drops a tarn, brainstorms, then thoughtseizes me and takes my bitterblossom. I draw another swamp and hymn him, getting trop and a ponder. He thoughtseizes again and gets my lili last hope. I get ashiok out and start milling. He drops a leo and a Goyf. I get LiliOtv and get his creature with -2 and then use lili's triumph to get the other and force a discard.
He lands an oko next which meats a swift end (murderous rider).
He gets a dack and starts looting but I follow up with another ashiok and mill for the win.
1-0.

I believe i sided out 2 maze of ith for a surgical and extirpate. I elected not to bring in needles for fear of dack stealing them, which as I am typing now realize that is stupid because they'd still work.
R1G2: On the draw. No mulligans. Opening hand: Swamp, Blast zone, bitter blossom, hymn, lili OTV, surgical, fatal push.
My t2 hmyn is met with a veil of summer. He follows up with dack and starts looting and discarding 2 punishing fires. I attempt to surgical them but it gets forced.
I land a t4 bitterblossom which doesn't stick long (Abrupt decay or ass trophy, can't recall). He eventually ultimates dack and pfires my liliOTV at 3 loyalty and steals her. I have to use up a swift end (murderous rider) on it to kill it.
He lands a plague engineer on fairies and eventually just P. fires me to death. I must not have done much this game as I don't have many notes.
1-1. No changes to SB.

R1G3: On the play. we both mull to 6. I get Swamp, innocent blood, bitterblossom, lili LH, ashiok, lili triumpb, caslte lockthwain (bottomed innocent blood).
He starts on a fetch. I go for the turn 2 bitterblossom which gets met with a cracked fetch, a brainstorm, and an assassins trophy before it can get going.
I follow up by wasting his trop and landing an ashiok and begin milling.
Next up is a lili LH which sticks after a brainstorm. He follows up with a dack and starts looting.
Critical play... I IOK and see snappy, grove of burn willows, drown in the lock, and notion thief. I didn't mark what I picked but I think it was snappy. Here is where the big mistake came in. I had him down to 2 cards in hand (one was a notion thief, which I forgot had flash). I had ash, lili LH, and lili OTV. I cast a discard spell to get him with one card left (Notion thief). I uptick lili last hope to 6 ON AN EMPTY BOARD, then Plus 1 on lili OTV which he naturally responds with flashing Notion thief. I don't quite have details on how it happened next but the notion thief ends up killing one lili and I think he bounced the last hope on the next draw (I don't quite remember, but it wound up I lost both walkers in the process).
He lands a jace and starts upticking/fate sealing. With his notion thief and dack, he is having me (him) draw the 2 and me discarding 2. Spicy. But, between the looting and ashiok his library is running light. I force him to draw extra cards from my castle lockthwain through his notion thief. He eventially P Fires his own guy to stop that. I start saving cards as his jace ultimate is coming. He draws his last card the turn he ults jace. I have 3 cards from my hand in my new "library" at this point. And he he has dack loot me for 2, then drops a fresh dack from his hand to have me loot once more for the win.
1-2
Had I sequenced my lili activation better, I'd have been able to keep my walkers on an empty board. He did have a p fires but didn't have the grove to bring it back.

R2 - Jeffrey on mono red prison.
R2G1: on the draw. Opening hand: 2 swamp, 1 castle, hymn, ashiok, lili LH, fatal push.
He mountain and passes. I rip a dark rit off the top and t1 ritual into lili last hope. He comes back with a chrome mox and a 3 ball (not a big deal for this deck, fortunately)
I tick up a few turns until he gets his war boss out. I elect to -2/-1 the war boss to avoid mentor triggers but it didn't really matter.
I hymn but he comes back next turn with a rabblemaster and I'm basically done. I can't do anything useful with the push in my hand without fetches as his dudes had cmc of 3. I was dead pretty quick. which is ok because in g2...
1-3

R2:g2 on the play: opening hand, swampx2, dark rit x2, lili OTV, lili LH, IoK. I keep, obviously, and try to contain the erection growing in my pants. He mulls to 5 after seeing no lands in his first 2. I IoK his chalice (karn tGC, mountain, chalice, rabble master, ancient tomb). He lands a mountain and passes. I dump my hand full of rituals and lilis and he scoops.
2-3

R2:G3. On the draw. Opening hand: swamp, fetch, dark rit, IoK, rider, lil triumph, BB.
He mulls to 6 and i pray for no chalice. Fortunately, he doesn't have it. He opens with tomb, chrome mox for a T1 rabble master. I swiftly end it with swamp + dark rit. He gets out a chalice on 1, which is fine at this point.
I cast the rider from adventure which was good timing as he landed a scab-clan berserker next but couldn't get it to connect to make it renown. I land a bitterblossom.
He lands chalice on 2 (I respond with lili triumph on his goblin token).
I ride BB to victory with rider protection from the scab clan berserker. Last turn had 5 tokens.
3-3.
I believe I sided in bridges and ratchet bombs, siding out ashioks. Never saw em either game.

R3 vs Andrew on 5c snow control.
R3G1: on the draw. opening hand: wasteland, swamp, 2x bitterblossom, hymn, lili OTV.
He fetches for a U Sea and IoKs me, taking 1 bitterblossom. I draw another wasteland so I waste his sea and pass back.
He fetches up a trop and probably ponders. I play my second wasteland and land a BB.
He does nothing so I waste his top and hymn him, getting StP and something else. Unfortunately, I only got 1 token before BB meets an abrupt decay. That being said, I rip another off the top and get up to 3 tokens before he lands an okko and a 3feri and starts bouncing things. Rider takes out his oko, he gets a jace and bounces some more while eventually ultimating jace for the win.
3-4
out 2 maze of ith, 2 innocent blood. In 2 needles, 1 surgical, 1 extirpate.

mull to 6 on the play. Opening hand: swamp, castle, wasteland, fetch, thought seize, lili LH, extirpate (I bottom the fetch).
I TS and see veil, BS, ponder, plague engineer, abrupt decay, vol, and snow island. I chose veil.
I go for my lili LH. he brainstorms, doesn't find a force so I keep it and start ticking up. He fetches a tundra for 3feri and starts upticking as well. I decide kind of randomly to extirpate a BS from his yard (he had BS, ponder, and veil). He had one in his hand as well, lucky me. also had a veil so that could have been good too.
get lots of planewalker support (both lilis) that deals with a couple of plague engineers. I am able to uptick liliLH to 7, but he finds and abrupt decay on his turn at the last possible moment.
eventually jace and oko take over and I die. I don't see a BB until its too late in the game. I will note I did get stuck on 2 lands this game after lots of wastelanding, with riders/PWs in my hand. this was the only game i felt the light land count.


3-5 (1-2)

In summary:
Went 1-2 in rounds, probably should have gone 2-1. Went 3-5 in games, probably should have gone 4-4. But my opponents made mistakes too so perhaps it evened out.
dark rits into early PWs were usually very strong plays.
castle is good mid/late game
i didn't have issues with life loss from my deck like i thought.
The deck kind of hinges on getting a BB to stick and stay. without it, you are reliant on lili LH but the deck, according to my R1 opponent is "nothing but bombs and disruption." He isn't wrong lol.
5 lilis seems to work well for lili's triumph to pull double duty.
Decks in the field were the above plus snow aluren and a green based deck with nissa who shakes the world (I think, didn't get to watch much of that game). There were just 6 of us as the other two just join/dropped so we could start with 8.
Land count seemed fine. That being said, I didn't get hit by a wasteland either and used mine offensively most of the time.
Ash only stopped one fetch activation but it was later in the game so I'm not sure that it would have mattered. He shuffled after a brainstorm anyway so it probably achieved its primary purpose anyway.

I'll clean up the grammar and formatting later but at least those who can't sleep or live on the other side of the world can get their fix.
I think i got my recaps correct but if not, its at least close enough. I'm open for questions as well.

[Seymour_Asses]

Thanks for the writeup!

[bronco]

and that is the difference between good player playing a winning deck and a bad one...
bad choices and bad sequencing
and complaining about land count while happy trigger wastelanding is stupid

[Mr. Safety]

https://media.makeameme.org/created/oh-so-you-5936fc.jpg

[ronco]

write up formatted slightly better with a couple new comments:
Land count seemed fine. That being said, I didn't get hit by a wasteland either and used mine offensively most of the time.
Ash only stopped one fetch activation but it was later in the game so I'm not sure that it would have mattered. He shuffled after a brainstorm anyway so it probably achieved its primary purpose anyway.


Thanks for the writeup!
No problem. I enjoyed playing it and helping the forum.



and that is the difference between good player playing a winning deck and a bad one...
bad choices and bad sequencing
and complaining about land count while happy trigger wastelanding is stupid

Hi. You must be new here:

I promise to play it sub optimally and report back

[bronco]

https://media.makeameme.org/created/oh-so-you-5936fc.jpg

Well, I should be, as I'm the one who topped that tourney. Mana base was just right without being mana screwed or mana flooded.
Acquisition was awkward and so were the bb's. I had to side them out against anything that wasnt control or big fat Marit Lage. Hymn wasnt great either against VoS. Ashioks, Riders and Engineers on the other hand outperformed.
Since then there have been made some positive changes to the list with the help of my friends.
P.S. It's easy to bash something you don't understand.

[ronco]

Well, I should be, as I'm the one who topped that tourney. Mana base was just right without being mana screwed or mana flooded.
Acquisition was awkward and so were the bb's. I had to side them out against anything that wasnt control or big fat Marit Lage. Hymn wasnt great either against VoS. Ashioks, Riders and Engineers on the other hand outperformed.
Since then there have been made some positive changes to the list with the help of my friends.
P.S. It's easy to bash something you don't understand.


I don't think anyone bashed the deck, we (or at least I) just hadn't seen one like it and had questions. Based on where we (some of us) had been with smallpox decks having a much higher land count, switching to a poxless MBC type deck was new to us. Was there too much life loss with the riders being only the life gain? We didn't know, we've never played this deck. What about the noxious revival? Initially I thought it was a flexible grave hate but it got back dead walkers or other utility disruptions/removal in testing but I don't know if that is the best use or its intention. Are the fetches to shuffle bottomed riders back into the deck? Seems like it could put the deck at a risk to blood moon otherwise, or is it to avoid getting stuck under a fate sealing Jace? Are the BBs used offensively or defensively to protect the walkers, or is it just matchup dependent? As you said, we (who were posting) didn't have experience with it so we were asking questions and giving thoughts but I don't think anyone bashed it. And I took your exact list as you saw and just above that I said I wanted to make changes but:


I REALLY want to change a few things but out of respect for the pilot and their finish I'll run their list for now.

I don't have the audacity to take a winning deck and say it sucks and make changes that aren't personal style/lack of access to cards. I'll be the first to admit i'm not a great player as the play lines above indicate. But I'd be happy to hear about the matchups you had (good and bad) and how you approached the tougher ones, and your thoughts on particular card choices. Especially if there are lines that aren't necessarily obvious. the meta in that tournament seemed quite diverse so it lends strength to your showing.

[bruizar]

I think any sort of innovation that performs well is welcomed here. Perhaps you got the feeling your deck was being bashed because we said N=1 and Smallpox is still good, but if that's the case I don't think anyone intentionally bashed anything. Pretty convinced your list would be better with an Urborg.

What was the rationale behind Dreadhorde Invasion? Did you ever get any beefy armies or lifelinking armies?

[bronco]

Pretty convinced your list would be better with an Urborg.

Sorry, but no. If you need more black sources, play more black sources. Urborg isn't there for a reason.

[ronco]

Based on conversation on the FB thread, urborg is a no because it "turns on" opponents fetch lands with ash out. So if you are going to lean on ash to do work I can see why urborg would be skipped.

I was unable to live the dream of stopping fetches in my event so I cant comment on this from experience. Only got to stop one fetch but he cracked it just to shuffle off a brainstorm anyway.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

[OmniStrata]

No offense to the creator but I think the deck is in the wrong thread. By sheer definition, Poxless decks aren't Pox decks. Mono-black control is MBC. That's not a bad thing but I'm not dropping Smallpox for innovation... If I wanted only to develop a winning deck, I'd abandon Pox and just play Temur Delver. I'd find a way to squeeze in Smallpox and Sinkholes in that list. Especially with no Urborgs, Mishra's Factory and includes Ashiok, Dream Renders. The foundation is great

Just for laughs, you could call it a trans-Pox deck? :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Mr. Safety]

No offense to the creator but I think the deck is in the wrong thread. By sheer definition, Poxless decks aren't Pox decks. Mono-black control is MBC. That's not a bad thing but I'm not dropping Smallpox for innovation... If I wanted only to develop a winning deck, I'd abandon Pox and just play Temur Delver. I'd find a way to squeeze in Smallpox and Sinkholes in that list. Especially with no Urborgs, Mishra's Factory and includes Ashiok, Dream Renders. The foundation is great

Just for laughs, you could call it a trans-Pox deck? :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Part of that is my fault, I posted a link on here and described it as a 'Pox-less Pox Deck'.

[Scott]

How about one with 2 Smallpoxes? Just saw this posted; another interesting maybe sort of Pox probably MBC list, top 8 in an 89-player tournament (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24498&d=371183&f=LE) in Italy last week

// 24 Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Castle Locthwain
3 Mutavault
3 Polluted Delta
10 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland

// 13 Creatures
3 Asylum Visitor
4 Bloodghast
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Murderous Rider

// 8 Instants
4 Dark Ritual
4 Liliana's Triumph

// 8 Sorceries
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize

// 7 Planeswalkers
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 2 Helm of Obedience
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Liliana, the Last Hope
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Plague Engineer
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb

[OmniStrata]

How about one with 2 Smallpoxes? Just saw this posted; another interesting maybe sort of Pox probably MBC list, top 8 in an 89-player tournament (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24498&d=371183&f=LE) in Italy last week

// 24 Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Castle Locthwain
3 Mutavault
3 Polluted Delta
10 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland

// 13 Creatures
3 Asylum Visitor
4 Bloodghast
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Murderous Rider

// 8 Instants
4 Dark Ritual
4 Liliana's Triumph

// 8 Sorceries
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize

// 7 Planeswalkers
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 2 Helm of Obedience
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Liliana, the Last Hope
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Plague Engineer
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb

"No card is an automatic four of, not even Pox and Smallpox." - the father-thread under Card analysis. If anything, I'd just run Big Pox instead of Smallpox. I should test Curse of the Cabal. It's one hell of a bomb. Assuming you keep Teferi, Time Raveler off the table. Since I'm of the mana denial flavor, they'll probably be in deep trouble since I'm hitting the lands, they'll probably be sacrificing relevant permanents to buy time. I'm trading Nether Void to finish my RUG Delver land sets. Turns out that Winter Orb with Artifact Mana is nastier...:cool:

[jonastobias]

How about one with 2 Smallpoxes? Just saw this posted; another interesting maybe sort of Pox probably MBC list, top 8 in an 89-player tournament (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24498&d=371183&f=LE) in Italy last week

// 24 Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Castle Locthwain
3 Mutavault
3 Polluted Delta
10 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland

// 13 Creatures
3 Asylum Visitor
4 Bloodghast
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Murderous Rider

// 8 Instants
4 Dark Ritual
4 Liliana's Triumph

// 8 Sorceries
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize

// 7 Planeswalkers
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 2 Helm of Obedience
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Liliana, the Last Hope
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Plague Engineer
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
I don't know if it's intentional in this list, but I've had a problem often that the pox list I've been running loses to chalice on 1. This list plays around that super well and barely cares about most cotv plays.

[OmniStrata]

Chalice @ 1 seems to hurt the Dark Ritual Core builds and discard flavors of Pox. If it's really that prevalent, I'd suggest going full land killer since they're not using cmc 1 spells either. I haven't fought vs. Chalice much but I know my Inquisitions & Dark Rits would certainly be a problem. BlastZone becomes your answer, but you need to pump it up to two counters right?

[H]

I haven't fought vs. Chalice much but I know my Inquisitions & Dark Rits would certainly be a problem. BlastZone becomes your answer, but you need to pump it up to two counters right?

Chalice, regardless of what number of counters it has on it, or was played with, always has a CMC of Zero while on the Battlefield. Blast Zone won't help, unless you have some Thespian Stage shenanigans going.

[OmniStrata]

Those rulings... Ugh. Blast Zone doesn't work on tokens since it starts on 1... DOH! In that case, Ratchet Bomb becomes the answer for Chalice @1.

[ronco]

Those rulings... Ugh. Blast Zone doesn't work on tokens since it starts on 1... DOH! In that case, Ratchet Bomb becomes the answer for Chalice @1.

Besides EE and Ratchet Bomb, are there any competitive mono-black options? We're starting to see some enchantment removal in black which is nice. I don't think we'll see any artifact removal though.

[Mr. Safety]

You could play your own Chalices...just sayin'.

[H]

Besides EE and Ratchet Bomb, are there any competitive mono-black options? We're starting to see some enchantment removal in black which is nice. I don't think we'll see any artifact removal though.

Yes, this was explicitly stated by MaRo, that we will see Black's design-space opened to include conditional Enchantment removal, but not Artifact removal.

You've got to get into the weird sub-par realm to really get anything in Black that I know of, like Xenic Poltergeist or Gate to Phyrexia.

[Michael Keller]

Besides EE and Ratchet Bomb, are there any competitive mono-black options? We're starting to see some enchantment removal in black which is nice. I don't think we'll see any artifact removal though.

Most pertinent enchantments are green and or white, so Dystopia is still one of my all-time favorites for not only green and white enchantment removal, but green and white permanent removal in general.

[kombatkiwi]

Vampire Hexmage is also an acceptable answer to Chalice from monoblack decks (the only issue here is that it conflicts with Nether Spirit, but it also has flexibility as an anti-PW option if you want that effect)

[OmniStrata]

Karn, the Great Creator and Null Rod come to mind. Problem is the Rod messes with your own artifacts like Cursed Scroll and activated Mishra's Factory and Phyrexian Totem. If only KtGC was 3 mana and 4 loyalty instead...

[OmniStrata]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2218439#paper

Winter's Orb Testing Failed. Bringing back the Nether Void and replaced it with a 2nd Murderous Rider. If you're fighting Chalice @1. Fuq it and bring in all the sideboard you like > 1 cmc and swap out the inquisitions, Bloods, Fatal Pushes & 1 cmc GY hate. The sideboard should be able to handle practically everything you'd need. Walkers have 3 ways of being Dealt with: Swift End, Asylum Visitors uppercutting hard, or Pithing Needle. Bonus if the Dystopia can kill the Walker of your choice! 6 Lilianas make her Triumph more certain... Pun intended :laugh::cool: Can Withering Wisps damage walkers? I suppose not...:frown:

[H]

Well, I'm sure it will get listed over the weekend, but EWLandon just 5-0'd with a BW Pox list.

1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Myth Realized
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Sphere of Resistance

4 Mox Diamond

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Marsh Flats
2 Castle Locthwain
1 Plains
3 Scrubland

5 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Vindicate
4 Wasteland


SIDEBOARD
2 Ashiok, Dream Render
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
3 Duress
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Porphyry Nodes
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt

If you watch the VOD, you will see, pretty much proof positive that it's better to be lucky than have a "good deck." :laugh:

[OmniStrata]

Myth Realized was the threat I've been waiting for... Too bad it's the wrong color...:frown:
Being super lucky will defeat any bad deck design. Though I'm not one to worship RNG as she's an evil btch most of the time.

[H]

Myth Realized was the threat I've been waiting for... Too bad it's the wrong color...:frown:
Being super lucky will defeat any bad deck design. Though I'm not one to worship RNG as she's an evil btch most of the time.

Well, the deck isn't terrible, but, like anything else, if you run into some decent matchups and get lucky, you might do really well.

That being said, the list itself isn't far from the old, hypothesized Vaka Pox lists from years ago. Several of the card choices make no seeming sense, but the structure, in-itself, is likely at least somewhat competitive. In fact, Sinkhole, while far, far from being the powerhouse it once was, might be somewhat better than it had been, since more decks are relying on the "stability" that Basics give in dodging Wasteland.

That being said, it seem doubtful, to me, that this would be the "optimal" Sinkhole deck, even if Sinkhole is better (which is a highly debatable notion in it's own right).

[OmniStrata]

I grew up with the precon, "Groundbreaker" as a basis for winning in MtG. Yes, I was an evil sadist. Having Sinkhole becoming dangerous in a deck is my dream. Sadly, despite WotC personal mission to make LD unplayable because losing with no lands is unfun... Yet printing Enter the Breech... I'm literally stuck between rock and hard place. I'll try as I might... But if splashing white is my only recourse, Vindicate is worth the price I guess. Years ago discussing with a coach and best friend, what's a good land destruction deck? This Pox was my answer... The pet deck as it were. :frown: I shall wait. We have two Lilianas that can shine. Murderous Rider is a welcome addition. Maybe, we'll get something, anything with time...:cry:

[OmniStrata]

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24242&d=369231&f=LE

This is an eye opening idea. Instead of a lock, you play an enormous creature after tripping them up. The triple Innocent Blood definitely feels solid despite the creatures. 25 land with 4 dark rituals makes sideboarding a bit more flexible. Any ideas besides sideboarding Dystopia? Normally, I wouldn't run this cause the creatures lacked protection but if the hymns and other discard can do it, maybe it'll work. It definitely has a learning curve but the Zombie combos well with the Cursed Scroll. Noxious Grasp & Dystopia would modify the board a bit for me.

[bruizar]

Not even sure if this still qualifies for Pox, but here goes


Land
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Polluted Delta
3 Graven Cairns
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands

Spells
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
1 Storm World
2 Kolaghan’s Command
2 Faithless Looting
3 Unearth
2 Blightning

Creatures
4 Kroxa, Titan of Death’s Hunger
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Lightning Skelemental

Planeswalkers
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage

Sideboard
3 Dreadbore
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Ashiok, Dream Render
3 Plague Engineer
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Pyroblast
1 Witch's Oven

[OmniStrata]

Not even sure if this still qualifies for Pox, but here goes


Land
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Polluted Delta
3 Graven Cairns
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands

Spells
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
1 Storm World
2 Kolaghan’s Command
2 Faithless Looting
3 Unearth
2 Blightning

Creatures
4 Kroxa, Titan of Death’s Hunger
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Lightning Skelemental

Planeswalkers
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage

Sideboard
3 Dreadbore
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Ashiok, Dream Render
3 Plague Engineer
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Pyroblast
1 Witch's Oven


I'd simply swap both Blightnings with Smallpox or Pox and that's all you'd need. Blightning is 3 mana for a hymn to Bolt. Pox is 3 mana for 2 bolts, 2 sinkholes, and 2 Raven's Crime if their lands and hand are 4 early game and Smallpox is 2 mana for a Sinkhole, Innocent Blood and Raven's Crime + Searing Touch :laugh: Such value, and we built our deck to survive the blast so to speak. Land count is too small for it though so you would have to revise a bit.

[bruizar]

I'd simply swap both Blightnings with Smallpox or Pox and that's all you'd need. Blightning is 3 mana for a hymn to Bolt. Pox is 3 mana for 2 bolts, 2 sinkholes, and 2 Raven's Crime if their lands and hand are 4 early game and Smallpox is 2 mana for a Sinkhole, Innocent Blood and Raven's Crime + Searing Touch :laugh: Such value, and we built our deck to survive the blast so to speak. Land count is too small for it though so you would have to revise a bit.

I'm afraid I won't get to BBRR for Kroxa with Pox effects. It's absolutely backbreaking and all my creatures are resistant to it, so I'd like to run it, but how do you deal with the land loss though.

PS: Graven Cairns is in the deck over Urborg because of the need to generate BB and RR for Hymn, Skelemental and Kroxa in case people were wondering.

[OmniStrata]

I'm afraid I won't get to BBRR for Kroxa with Pox effects. It's absolutely backbreaking and all my creatures are resistant to it, so I'd like to run it, but how do you deal with the land loss though.

PS: Graven Cairns is in the deck over Urborg because of the need to generate BB and RR for Hymn, Skelemental and Kroxa in case people were wondering.

I'd trade Davriel for Crucible of Worlds. Just need to get to it slowly as the dual mana base won't like Dark Ritual. Or maybe Mox Diamonds? The discarding wouldn't mean anything after all once the Crucible sticks

[Albarkhane]

I had to quit Legacy for a few years and now i have enough time to play some again. Since i am far from being up to date with the format and quite rusty, i decided to play a deck that i like instead of playing the most competitive ones. Well, here i am trying again mono black POX. I did some search and found a list that did some results and that looks interesting :

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=23903&d=366362 (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=23903&d=366362http://)

LANDS
2 Blast Zone
1 Thespian's Stage
9 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Maze of Ith
1 Cabal Pit
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Castle Locthwain

OTHER
2 Bitterblossom
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Innocent Blood
1 Beseech the Queen
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
3 Dark Ritual
3 Liliana's Triumph
4 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

SIDEBOARD
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Dark Confidant
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Engineered Plague
1 Ensnaring Bridge

I did a few tests and the list is nice. However i have some questions about several card choices :
- Tabernacle MD is strange since we run bitterblossom and Liliana, the last hope. I presume it is a metagame call and my first guess would be to put it on sideboard.
- Thespian's stage can be a useful tool but every time i drew it i would rather have any other land.
- I did not test much SB yet but i am a bit surprised by Leyline : are there so many graveyard strategies that we need 4 slots for them ?
- Dark confident is not very friendly with innocent blood.
- Chains are a nice card that i love but every time i tested in Legacy, i have been disapointed.

The deck faired quite well so i presume its pilot thought a lot about each choice. So, what am i missing and more generally what do you think about that list ?

[OmniStrata]

I did a few tests and the list is nice. However i have some questions about several card choices :
- Tabernacle MD is strange since we run bitterblossom and Liliana, the last hope. I presume it is a metagame call and my first guess would be to put it on sideboard.
- Thespian's stage can be a useful tool but every time i drew it i would rather have any other land.
- I did not test much SB yet but i am a bit surprised by Leyline : are there so many graveyard strategies that we need 4 slots for them ?
- Dark confident is not very friendly with innocent blood.
- Chains are a nice card that i love but every time i tested in Legacy, i have been disapointed.

The deck faired quite well so i presume its pilot thought a lot about each choice. So, what am i missing and more generally what do you think about that list ?

1. You can choose to play Tabernacle if you need defense or Smallpox/Wasteland it away when Emblem or Bitterblossom is online.
2. Stage looks like a great way to steal enemy Marit Lage wins or be an extra copy of any land in your own deck. Extra Wastelands or Locthwains?
3. Leyline is the most powerful GY hate so far. Problem is the opening hand requirement, hence 4 I think.
4. Side out IB for Bob?
5. Chains is best after hellbent or when a Jace is online.

[Albarkhane]

1. You can choose to play Tabernacle if you need defense or Smallpox/Wasteland it away when Emblem or Bitterblossom is online.
2. Stage looks like a great way to steal enemy Marit Lage wins or be an extra copy of any land in your own deck. Extra Wastelands or Locthwains?
3. Leyline is the most powerful GY hate so far. Problem is the opening hand requirement, hence 4 I think.
4. Side out IB for Bob?
5. Chains is best after hellbent or when a Jace is online.

Thank you for your answer.

I agree that Tabernacle is a strong card and there are indeed ways to get around but there will be a few games when you won't able to. I mean it produces some tension in the deck and i rather fight opponent deck than mine. I like that this deck is using Emblem and bitterblossom as kill so because of that tension i am wondering if Tabernacle is important enough in the current meta to keep it main deck.

I am not sure you would steal a lot of Marit Lage against a good player, but i agree Stage can help to slow down opponent. Basically it is a nice tool to have but i am not sure so far that it is worth its slot. I will test it more.

Your answer about Chains ring a bell and maybe i was too greeding when using it. I will give it a second try.

[ronco]

If you like emblem and bitterblossom there was some discussion (and a bit of controversy provided by yours truly) a few pages back. Its technically a poxless pox deck, or maybe MBC, but you might like it. 5-0 an event recently.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

[OmniStrata]

Could we update the first page? With the new cards and working links? Just asking... :frown:

[Jofiel]

Hi Dudes!

I have the great news. :) The prophecy from high school told that if the Mono Black Control wins the big tournament World will be over and... Pox inspired deck wins 60 players tournament. :)

1/60 - 19 Jan 2020

https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/mono-black-control-decklist-by-aleksander-gorecki-921277

Lands 22

9 Swamp (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Swamp?fromqs=true)
4 Wasteland (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Wasteland)
3 Verdant Catacombs (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Verdant%20Catacombs)
2 Maze of Ith (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Maze%20of%20Ith)
2 Castle Locthwain (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Castle%20Locthwain)
1 Blast Zone (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Blast Zone)
1 Bojuka Bog (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bojuka%20Bog)

Creatures 3

3 Murderous Rider (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Murderous Rider)

Instants & Sorceries 22

2 Fatal Push (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Fatal%20Push)
1 Innocent Blood (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Innocent%20Blood)
4 Liliana's Triumph (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Liliana's%20Triumph)

4 Thoughtseize (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Thoughtseize)
2 Inquisition of Kozilek (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Inquisition%20of%20Kozilek)
3 Hymn to Tourach (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Hymn%20to%20Tourach)

1 Noxious Revival (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Noxious%20Revival?printing=18191)
1 Mastermind's Acquisition (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Mastermind's%20Acquisition)

4 Dark Ritual (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dark%20Ritual)

Enchantments 4

3 Bitterblossom (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bitterblossom)
1 Dreadhorde Invasion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dreadhorde%20Invasion)

Planewalkers 9

4 Ashiok, Dream Render (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Ashiok,%20Dream%20Render)
3 Liliana of the Veil (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Liliana%20of%20the%20Veil)
2 Liliana, the Last Hope (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Liliana,%20the%20Last%20Hope)

Sideboard

4 Leyline of the Void (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20the%20Void)
2 Plague Engineer (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Plague%20Engineer?printing=44803)
1 Extirpate (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Extirpate)
1 Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical Extraction)

2 Pithing Needle (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Pithing%20Needle)
1 Null Rod (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Null Rod)
2 Ratchet Bomb (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Ratchet%20Bomb)
2 Ensnaring Bridge (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Ensnaring%20Bridge)

Enjoy! I think upgrading by SmallPox (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Smallpox) or Pox (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Pox) is possible here if you are great fans, but... this deck is in based on "pox". :)

[ronco]

I think that's the list that got discussed a few pages back. I ran it in a local and despite me playing like a maroon it was a very strong deck.
I dont think it can take on small pox the card without added in a few more lands. Lilis triumph is a very good substitute and cansometimes be asymmetrical. A deck that can leverage smallpox and lili triumph might be a good awful deck to play against!

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

[PirateKing]

My playgroup has been building to beat Oko without anyone actually running many Oko decks, so it's difficult to state definitively, but I feel now more is the time for Nether Spirit to really shine. Keeping them off creatures locks his loyalty at 5 and he's an awful Elk target, all upside for us. As long as we can dodge a counterspell he plays nice with Murderous Rider as well. I've been trying to tweak some sort of snow-control Rotting Regisaur high impact spell type of pile, but I'm thinking it's time to pivot back to the slow, grindy types of lists from my youth.

[OmniStrata]

My playgroup has been building to beat Oko without anyone actually running many Oko decks, so it's difficult to state definitively, but I feel now more is the time for Nether Spirit to really shine. Keeping them off creatures locks his loyalty at 5 and he's an awful Elk target, all upside for us. As long as we can dodge a counterspell he plays nice with Murderous Rider as well. I've been trying to tweak some sort of snow-control Rotting Regisaur high impact spell type of pile, but I'm thinking it's time to pivot back to the slow, grindy types of lists from my youth.

Woot! Amen to that. Perhaps an idea for you:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2218439#paper

Bring in the Riders and remove Ashiok/Dark Rituals depending on the match.

I like this against Miracles. Just saying.

[Hardcore]

Working on on a Dark Depths build. I essentially replaced the Tombstalkers with
DD and hexmages, keeping the Bloodghasts and Shrieking Afflictions. Not bad. Hexmages have been useful.
I also have av copy of Grim Discovery in the deck.

Next idea is to add a second Buried Alive and Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis !

[Hardcore]

Could we update the first page? With the new cards and working links? Just asking... :frown:
Feline(op) actually quit this one ages ago and won't edit it.
We could always start a new thread.

[Mr. Safety]

I put a message up in the moderator forum about helping out with old primers. So far the best option mentioned is to just start a new thread. I can archive this old one for posterity.

It might be easiest to copy/paste the primer in the OP, edit it where fitting, and then just give credit to feline for writing the original primer. This way whomever starts the new thread, and is active, can make OP changes as needed.

[ronco]

Working on on a Dark Depths build. I essentially replaced the Tombstalkers with
DD and hexmages, keeping the Bloodghasts and Shrieking Afflictions. Not bad. Hexmages have been useful.
I also have av copy of Grim Discovery in the deck.

Next idea is to add a second Buried Alive and Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis !

Long time no see Hardcore. Sounds like your DD build is mono black (aside from Hogaak)?

[Hardcore]

Long time no see Hardcore. Sounds like your DD build is mono black (aside from Hogaak)?

Yeah, I have tried splashing red occasionally, and even white for Kaya, Ghost Assassin, but mono B is mono B.
Funny thing; whenever I try splashing I get me opponents that mana screw me one way or another.


Anyway should post the list here.

CREATURES (9)
4 Bloodghast]
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Shrieking Affliction
SORCERIES (15)
2 Buried Alive
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
1 Grim Discovery
PLANESWALKERS (5)
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord
LANDS (27)
4 Dark Depths
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
12 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SIDEBOARD (15)
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Pithing Needle

Hogaak and Sorin are latest, untested, addition to the build.
One thing i noticed so far is that I don't really worry about wasteland and such. I just find another way to win.
The sideboard could use an overhaul.

[drmarkb]

I have been thinking a lot about the Veil of Summer issue, and it recently struck me that with a classic landkill/prison pox the Veil is less of an issue if you can tap them out. I mean the card has receded anyway a tad, but i would still like to improve the odds.
A lot of lists seem to head towards Chalice, but I have gone towards Tanglewire.



3 Castle locthwain
1 Ifnir Deadlands
8 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's factory
1 Blast zone
1 Maze of Ith

2 Thoughtseize
4 Dark ritual
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Cling To Dust

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Small Pox
1 Bitterblossom
1 Sorcerous Spyglass

4 Tangle wire
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Phyrexian Totem
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Ashiok, Dream Render
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Plague Engineer
1 Nether Void

//sideboard
1 Plague engineer
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Bitterblossom
2 Dystopia
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Dampening sphere
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Null Rod


I have added the miser's copy of Spyglass main for Oko, but it is significant in my Depths/DnT heavy meta anyway. Having more permanents to tap at 2 cc makes the Tangle wire better in any case, and every now and then it works be hitting fetches in hand.
The Tangle wire really helps both Sinkhole by tapping fetches for Wasteland and discard, and Bitterblossom plays well with Tangle wire too if you stack it right. Against Mox diamond decks I remove Scroll and Totem, and bring in Null Rod, even if they just have 4 targets. It is amazing how often they escape from zero lands due to Mox, and shutting it off really helps. Null rod works with Tangle wire early doors too, another 2cc permanent to tap. I no longer have storm in my meta, but would fancy my chances with 4 Leyline, 2 Null rod and 2 damepening sphere plus Chains. Chains works ok with Lockthwain and a card in hand.
I have felt for while that Lilly is now a 3 of, the card is just not what it was. I almost never want to ritual into her and activate upwards, a Tangelwire or Ashiok is normally better t1/2. Wasteland too is worse than it once was, thanks to Labe, so I have gone to 3. I am playing fast and loose with the land count, my mono B control deck cousin runs 27, if I had to run one more I would cut an Ashiok, which is very binary. Cling to dust is superb. No Taby due to Bitterblossom, but in the right environment I would add it to the board over BB no 2. Dystopia has been great- we have local elves, depths, Nic fit and Mentor bant oko Miracles players, and always D n T players in multiples, plus a sometimes aluren players too. I even loaned out enchantress recently, so Dystopia stays for sure.

The deck plays as a tempo deck often, sneaking ahead under the T wire. I don't miss the old wastelock with crucible, and I feel I have a better chance with this build in a world of Oko and Veil.

[ronco]

I have been thinking a lot about the Veil of Summer issue, and it recently struck me that with a classic landkill/prison pox the Veil is less of an issue if you can tap them out. I mean the card has receded anyway a tad, but i would still like to improve the odds.
A lot of lists seem to head towards Chalice, but I have gone towards Tanglewire.



3 Castle locthwain
1 Ifnir Deadlands
8 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's factory
1 Blast zone
1 Maze of Ith

2 Thoughtseize
4 Dark ritual
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Cling To Dust

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Small Pox
1 Bitterblossom
1 Sorcerous Spyglass

4 Tangle wire
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Phyrexian Totem
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Ashiok, Dream Render
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Plague Engineer
1 Nether Void

//sideboard
1 Plague engineer
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Bitterblossom
2 Dystopia
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Dampening sphere
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Null Rod


I have added the miser's copy of Spyglass main for Oko, but it is significant in my Depths/DnT heavy meta anyway. Having more permanents to tap at 2 cc makes the Tangle wire better in any case, and every now and then it works be hitting fetches in hand.
The Tangle wire really helps both Sinkhole by tapping fetches for Wasteland and discard, and Bitterblossom plays well with Tangle wire too if you stack it right. Against Mox diamond decks I remove Scroll and Totem, and bring in Null Rod, even if they just have 4 targets. It is amazing how often they escape from zero lands due to Mox, and shutting it off really helps. Null rod works with Tangle wire early doors too, another 2cc permanent to tap. I no longer have storm in my meta, but would fancy my chances with 4 Leyline, 2 Null rod and 2 damepening sphere plus Chains. Chains works ok with Lockthwain and a card in hand.
I have felt for while that Lilly is now a 3 of, the card is just not what it was. I almost never want to ritual into her and activate upwards, a Tangelwire or Ashiok is normally better t1/2. Wasteland too is worse than it once was, thanks to Labe, so I have gone to 3. I am playing fast and loose with the land count, my mono B control deck cousin runs 27, if I had to run one more I would cut an Ashiok, which is very binary. Cling to dust is superb. No Taby due to Bitterblossom, but in the right environment I would add it to the board over BB no 2. Dystopia has been great- we have local elves, depths, Nic fit and Mentor bant oko Miracles players, and always D n T players in multiples, plus a sometimes aluren players too. I even loaned out enchantress recently, so Dystopia stays for sure.

The deck plays as a tempo deck often, sneaking ahead under the T wire. I don't miss the old wastelock with crucible, and I feel I have a better chance with this build in a world of Oko and Veil.

Do you have writeups with this deck? I picked up a set of tangles recently because I thought stax and pox had enough of an overlap in resource choking that it might be worth to experiment but I havent gotten around to it. Curious how you've been playing it, since I never have! Although at 4 mana its much more expensive, any thoughts on Karn, TCG for shutting off opponent artifacts like moxes and labes? One sided and gives you tutor options if you need them.

[drmarkb]

Do you have writeups with this deck? I picked up a set of tangles recently because I thought stax and pox had enough of an overlap in resource choking that it might be worth to experiment but I havent gotten around to it. Curious how you've been playing it, since I never have! Although at 4 mana its much more expensive, any thoughts on Karn, TCG for shutting off opponent artifacts like moxes and labes? One sided and gives you tutor options if you need them.

Not really any write ups, sadly. I play in 3 places- one is here on the very west of the UK, which is a pretty small scene. Then larger and further afield I play in 10-15 player FNMs and make the trip to England to play in 20-30+ player events. So far Pox has only come out locally in its current Tangle form. Covid 19 has stopped the meet ups now. I have some decent experiences of a few matches, whilst others are only from jamming before and after draft. I do play Mono B leyline of the void helm, it is one of my go to REL comp decks, and have often played that at bigger events- that is a karn deck of course, so I do know how well the deck supports it. What gave me success with 3 karns was not playing it as if it were Pox- smallpox is simply unplayable if you have a very large 4 slot, at which point you are just not playing Pox. I also ran 27 lands in that, and yes some are Taby/Maze which only make mana under Urborg TOY, but a high land count is essential for that deck. From my experience of that deck I would consider one or two karn main deck with the Tangle Pox list above (keeping smallpox, sinkhole et al), but would increase the land count by one. I think the 2 karns would go in over Spyglass, and 1 of the Ashioks, whilst the other Ashiok would have to be a land, and the N void would probably be better as a 3ball, animate-able and won't interfere with Karn GTC being cast like Nether void does. The board would probably have to squeeze in Lattice, Liquimetal Coating, Bridge, needle/spyglass as a minimum, maybe a Helm too for quick wins vs Graveyard decks like loam, and possibly any number of others like Crucible or even Trading Post, Chailce, Cursed Totem etc.. It may not even support Lattice.
I certainly can report that with the Tangle Pox list I run the traditional matches that are good, like Delver, Infect, Enchantress etc. are not worse (well infect is a tad due to me not running edict effects), whilst the BUG zenith Oko and Snow UWx are even better.

[ronco]

Thanks for the response. What kind of matchups do you find yourself taking tangles out g2 and 3 (if ever)? If you have the option of lili or tangle on turn 3, do you gravitate towards one or the other? Sorry if these are dumb questions, just trying best to understand how the deck plays out. I'm not the greatest at looking at lists and figuring these things out.

[OmniStrata]

Can Tanglewire, Winter Orb, Howling Mine and Smokestack combo for extreme permanent based resource denial and card advantage? :eek::cry: But it's so many slots... :cry::cry:

[drmarkb]

Thanks for the response. What kind of matchups do you find yourself taking tangles out g2 and 3 (if ever)? If you have the option of lili or tangle on turn 3, do you gravitate towards one or the other? Sorry if these are dumb questions, just trying best to understand how the deck plays out. I'm not the greatest at looking at lists and figuring these things out.

I would take t wire out vs manaless dredge I guess!
Honestly, if they run lands, it stays in. And the answer is nearly always Tangle over lilly, unless you are playing ur delver and they have just dropped pyromancer and you know they don't have a free spell in hand. Basically always tanglewire over Lil. Maybe against elves you can construct s corner case scenario where Lil gets dropped first.

[drmarkb]

Can Tanglewire, Winter Orb, Howling Mine and Smokestack combo for extreme permanent based resource denial and card advantage? :eek::cry: But it's so many slots... :cry::cry:

No idea. But that sounds more like Stax, bar the howling mine. Now I own 2 stax decks separately, 3 if you count dragon stompy, I love it, but have never reconciled the two.
At least not in this format- my Canlander deck is pox/stax.
I have a friend who tried pox with chalice in Legacy and iirc a smokestack or two in the board. Not sure how it worked out, think it went ok in the one event he ran it. Again it sounds like a pox with karn type thing.
I think w orb is a ur delver card, hard for us to use, maybe in aggro pox with Bloodghasts etc. 3 sphere and N void are just better.
With cling to dust and lockthwain we have loads more draw than ever.

[Malfeischylde]

I'm currently trying out a BW Pox build. I'm wondering what our weakest matches are and if there is any changes youd make or things that are obvious I'm missing? I've been enjoying most of the deck. I already changed the black urza manland for a marsh flats for now, but other than that...? Thoughts?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200401/f3a0166e115e5e2c18f09c84a9c49e7b.jpg

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[OmniStrata]

I'm currently trying out a BW Pox build. I'm wondering what our weakest matches are and if there is any changes youd make or things that are obvious I'm missing? I've been enjoying most of the deck. I already changed the black urza manland for a marsh flats for now, but other than that...? Thoughts

Some of the cards are tough to make out in the image. At least for me.

[ronco]

Some of the cards are tough to make out in the image. At least for me.

Here is what I think the list is;
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Smallpox
4 Sphere of resistance
4 mox diamond
3 sinkhole
3 myth realized
2 lili last hope
1 nether spirit
1 crucible

Lands:
4 Factory
4 wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Fetch
3 Scrubland
2 Castle Locthwain
3 swamp
1 plains
1 spawning pool
1 tabernacle
1 flagstones of trokair (?)
1 whatever is behind the flagstones. Shambling vent perhaps?

[Mr. Safety]

I'm got my brew-goggles on during this quarantine, so here is my Pox brew I'm working on. BA + Bloodghast is pretty decent pressure if pulled off t1, and it supports Therapy/Smallpox/Brutality in a big way. I ended up cutting the LotV's, it just doesn't seem great right now. This has the Depths combo in it, which should divide attention. Sideboard isn't even on my radar yet, but I put together a rough 15.

4x Bloodghast
4x Vampire Hexmage
2x Bitterblossom

3x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Dark Ritual
3x Fatal Push
4x Smallpox
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Collective Brutality
1x grim discovery
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Buried Alive

4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
6x Swamp
3x Wasteland

Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Ashiok, Dream Render
1x Dismember
1x crucible of worlds
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Diabolic Edict
3x Pithing Needle
2x Plague Engineer

[OmniStrata]

I'm now an MTGO junkie! Thanks to Corona-chan... :rolleyes:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2218439#paper

I really want to squeeze in The Abyss and/or Chains of Mephistopheles in the SB. Any advice? I like the triplet approach to sideboarding. 3 cards for a bad match up.

[Reeplcheep]

this is kinda out there, but I feel like pox really needs a threat that can beat oko. Has anyone tried buried alive + bloodghast and 2 prized amalgams? that's 8 recurring power on t2 like a super beefed up nether spirit.

You have 8 sources of self discard so drawing the targets doesn't hurt much. And you can run a 1 of first sphere gargantuan in case you draw the bloodghast

[ronco]

this is kinda out there, but I feel like pox really needs a threat that can beat oko. Has anyone tried buried alive + bloodghast and 2 prized amalgams? that's 8 recurring power on t2 like a super beefed up nether spirit.

You have 8 sources of self discard so drawing the targets doesn't hurt much. And you can run a 1 of first sphere gargantuan in case you draw the bloodghast

I don't think Prized Amalgram has been tried but Mr Safety (a few posts up) is a big fan of the buried alive + 3 ghast plan.

[Reeplcheep]

I don't think Prized Amalgram has been tried but Mr Safety (a few posts up) is a big fan of the buried alive + 3 ghast plan.

I just think 3/3s are way better than 2/1s in the age of plague engineer & elks. Also first sphere is nice if you need card draw or don't have a land drop

[Mr. Safety]

I just think 3/3s are way better than 2/1s in the age of plague engineer & elks. Also first sphere is nice if you need card draw or don't have a land drop

The difference is you can cast Bloodghast if you draw it, you can't cast Amalgams (without splashing and making your mana-base absolute shit.) I've played a lot of games with Pox, hardcasting Bloodghast happens a lot.

Bloodghast is subtly powerful, it's a link in the chain of what you're doing. He's a great way to escalate Brutality, discard to Smallpox, and feeds busted Therapy openings. Along with Bitterblossom it adds a lot of presssure. I am also pairing it with Depths combo (no factories) so it really pinches my opponents resources while they fight off the combo.

I don't worry about Plague Engineer, I make 20/20's. I don't worry about Oko, I have 4 maindeck answers (hexmage) and 3 sb Needles.

I've been playtesting, and I dropped to 3 Rituals and added a 3rd Hymn.

Edit: I just googled Gargantua, and it's unplayable. It's only redeeming value is haste, and you only get it once. I'm pretty sure it will be hard to keep opponents off all their removal, timing it just right, to hit Oko. Bitterblossom is so much better against Oko. Oko makes both 1/1 tokens and 2/1 can't-block Bloodghasts a lot better, too. Let your Oko opponent give you "prized amalgams".

Edit #2: debating some number of Expedition Map, maybe 1-2, over some of the other disruption. Ritual makes it faster and the combo is pretty important to some matchups.

Edit #3: buried Alive + grim discovery can tutor hexmages, too. Unlikely to come up very often, but definitely something to keep in mind. Huh.

[Reeplcheep]

Gargantua is probably bad sure. I just wanted a 4th creature in case I drew a second buried alive. With hexmage and grim discovery its less necessary.

Also, if you add some fetch lands (no duals) and a 1 of witches cottage now buried alive also tutors the hexmage without any other spell.

If you are running dark ritual, bloodghasts and bitterblossom is some smokestacks a consideration? LD that ignores veil.

[Mr. Safety]

Gargantua is probably bad sure. I just wanted a 4th creature in case I drew a second buried alive. With hexmage and grim discovery its less necessary.

Also, if you add some fetch lands (no duals) and a 1 of witches cottage now buried alive also tutors the hexmage without any other spell.

If you are running dark ritual, bloodghasts and bitterblossom is some smokestacks a consideration? LD that ignores veil.

Smokestack is going a little too deep I think. Witches Cottage seems interesting...I already have 4 Verdant catacombs in my list, so it might be an option, but with Smallpox it's not likely to be reliable.

[ronco]

Down side is you cant tutor it but mortuary mire does it without a qualifier.

Lili last hope can also bring it back too, finally a use for the -2 that isn't delve related?

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

[Mr. Safety]

Down side is you cant tutor it but mortuary mire does it without a qualifier.

Lili last hope can also bring it back too, finally a use for the -2 that isn't delve related?

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

Yeah, Liliana is a good way of doing that too.

[OmniStrata]

Looking at first sphere gargantuan, for the cost unearthing, wouldn't Rotting Regisaur be better? Liliana, the Last Hope can bring it back if killed, sadly, I think the meta is all about exiling removal these days.

[Reeplcheep]

Looking at first sphere gargantuan, for the cost unearthing, wouldn't Rotting Regisaur be better? Liliana, the Last Hope can bring it back if killed, sadly, I think the meta is all about exiling removal these days.

Well the idea is its gets itself out of the graveyard when you buried alive for it, triggering your amalgams. But its probably worse than more bloodghasts

[ronco]

It does draw you a card too.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

[OmniStrata]

Does anyone have any sideboard suggestions for countering problems? Just wondering if Godzilla probably brought us anything new to play with. :eyebrow:

[Mr. Safety]

I'm hoping the companion mechanic is banned in Legacy, but if it isn't, moving forward I would highly suggest playing Lurrus in your sideboard of Pox. You are significantly handicapped if you don't. You lose Liliana PW's but you get absurd grind power in exchange.

[PirateKing]

Any problems in particular you looking to solve?
Nothing came that screamed Pox to me.

[ronco]

Lurrus opens up repeated use of Hexmage which is pretty good, even without depths. Others have suggest baubles for card draw, spellbombs, EE, and I think if you realllly stretched gatekeeper of malakir and yaroks fenlurker could be used by some. You can def brew a lot of changes there and with flexibility for whatever removal you'd like.

[FTW]

Yeah Lurrus looks strong here.

You don't even need to waste space on Baubles. Pox is an attrition deck that needs to grind out card advantage and struggles with finding a win condition and managing its life total. A lifelinking Commander that provides card advantage is everything the deck needs, and it doesn't take up a draw step.

The biggest drawback is losing Liliana. But you can also recur Chains of Mephistopheles for all the lulz against other Lurrus decks. Lurrus fits into the Hexmage-Depths variant and the 8Rack variant pretty easily.

[OmniStrata]

I'm hoping the companion mechanic is banned in Legacy, but if it isn't, moving forward I would highly suggest playing Lurrus in your sideboard of Pox. You are significantly handicapped if you don't. You lose Liliana PW's but you get absurd grind power in exchange.

That's a cool idea actually. You lower the curve of the deck. But is losing Liliana of the Veil worth grinding even longer games? What could replace her I wonder. :confused: Ooh. This opens up Black Vise possibilities for LD flavor!! :eek:

[OmniStrata]

Lurrus, the Dream-den with Ratchet Bombs, Blight and Vampire Hexmage. Black Vise, Oh My... The kicker creatures mentioned sound interesting. Losing Lilianas allows big Pox to return. Is there a way outside Life from the Loam to keep mana on the field? Charcoal Diamonds?

[ronco]

Lurrus, the Dream-den with Ratchet Bombs, Blight and Vampire Hexmage. Black Vise, Oh My... The kicker creatures mentioned sound interesting. Losing Lilianas allows big Pox to return. Is there a way outside Life from the Loam to keep mana on the field? Charcoal Diamonds?

If staying in mono black there is Grim Discovery mentioned a while back. Works nicely with depths/hexmage obviously...

[Mr. Safety]

Lurrus, the Dream-den with Ratchet Bombs, Blight and Vampire Hexmage. Black Vise, Oh My... The kicker creatures mentioned sound interesting. Losing Lilianas allows big Pox to return. Is there a way outside Life from the Loam to keep mana on the field? Charcoal Diamonds?

I think you just max out on Dark Ritual. It takes up space but allows you to have the mana you need in the mid- late game.

[ronco]

Bunch of matches streamed of Adachi Ryosuki playing pox on The Legacy Pit.

https://m.twitch.tv/videos/610601751



Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

[OmniStrata]

Bunch of matches streamed of Adachi Ryosuki playing pox on The Legacy Pit.

https://m.twitch.tv/videos/610601751



Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

I noticed the Karn. Is there a current list? For research. lol I do intend to try a Lurrus Nightmare kitty approach but just wondering. Being able to bring back Quad Big Pox in place of Liliana for GY abuse is too tempting... :cool::cool:

[non-inflammable]

I'm all in on this thread. Just waiting for something glorious.



Bunch of matches streamed of Adachi Ryosuki playing pox on The Legacy Pit.

https://m.twitch.tv/videos/610601751


Around the 32 minute mark, Travis draws a card with Chains of Mephistopheles in play.
He didn't discard, sad...

[ronco]

I'm all in on this thread. Just waiting for something glorious.





Around the 32 minute mark, Travis draws a card with Chains of Mephistopheles in play.
He didn't discard, sad...

Yeah, there were a few misplays, Adachi innocent bloods but doesn't sac a creature, and on a couple occasions life points were missed on BBs. I think some of it is just the difficulty playing remotely online vs having cards in front of you. I think the decklist was provided as follows:

2 Vampire Hexmage
4 dark rit
4 innocent blood
4 thoughtseize
4 smallpox
2 hymn
2 nether void
1 cursed scroll
1 ensnaring brige
1 pyrexian toem
4 lili OTV
2 lili, LH
2 karn tGC
9 snow-covered swamp
4 factory
4 urborg
4 wasteland
2 castle locthwain
1 bojuka bog
1 cabl pit
1 maze of ith
1 tabby

SB:
1 lost legacy
2 bitterblossom
1 chains
2 e. plague
4 leyling OTV
2 pithing needle
1 liquimetal coating
1 crucible
1 ensnaring bridge

[OmniStrata]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3009914#online

My first untested take on a Lurrus Pox LD flavor. Had Cabal Therapies but realized, Black Vising someone is bad if too much hand destruction is present. :confused: Combo decks I suppose need Chains of Mephistopheles and Sphere of resistance. I'll MTGO this later when my mind isn't cracked.

Suggestions? No Liliana and big focus on LD jamming their hands means Contamination is an option too but only post-board. Bringing in SB cards doesn't break the Companion rule does it? Can we have 3 cmc permanents boarded in?

[OmniStrata]

Oh carp. Heard in another thread that Lurrus is meta stomping hard and they're possibly waiting on a ban. Perhaps I wait to pull the trigger on the idea?

[ronco]

I'm waiting on the lurrus train, if nothing else so the price can come down a bit after domestic (US) release. If it gets banned, so be it, but I wonder if its better to run it 3-4x main deck? If you only have the one in companion then as soon as it gets bolted/bounced/countered, whatever, then you have an inferior deck. But running 3 or 4 main gives you chances to come back late game in a hurry. Plus then you can use all the lilis you want!

Edit to add: I LOVE the misinformation in the board. I have no idea if its actually a good idea or not, but I made a misinformation/Volrath's dungeon/agonizing memories deck back in the day and enjoyed the misery it dished out on the rare occasion if worked lol. Thanks for the trip down memory lane!

[Mr. Safety]

Oh carp. Heard in another thread that Lurrus is meta stomping hard and they're possibly waiting on a ban. Perhaps I wait to pull the trigger on the idea?

I highly suggest you wait it out, if you can. Lurrus has an insane meta saturation ATM. However, results are small and only online. All of the companions are being tested in one way or another, but take that with a grain of salt (everyone testing new cards.) Gyruda has it's own combo deck, Jegantha is seeing some play in Lands, Yorion is being tested in Miracles (yes with 80 cards maindeck), Obosh is being tested in Shadow/Grixis shells, and Yirda is seeing play in Bomberman/artifact combo decks. Of all of them Lurrus is easily the most powerful and the one with the biggest impact so far.

@ronco: I don't think Lurrus is a maindeckable card, but maybe I'm way wrong on that. What you give up isn't necessarily worth the tradeoff in my opinion. I think with him in the sideboard, you always have a threat/value engine at your disposal which doesn't dilute your maindeck plan. In your maindeck makes him just another creature that dies to bolt that could have been a Hymn/Sinkhole/Bitterblossom/etc. On the positive side, if you play him maindeck and not as a companion you can still run all your 3+ permanents.

[ronco]

@ronco: I don't think Lurrus is a maindeckable card, but maybe I'm way wrong on that. What you give up isn't necessarily worth the tradeoff in my opinion. I think with him in the sideboard, you always have a threat/value engine at your disposal which doesn't dilute your maindeck plan. In your maindeck makes him just another creature that dies to bolt that could have been a Hymn/Sinkhole/Bitterblossom/etc. On the positive side, if you play him maindeck and not as a companion you can still run all your 3+ permanents.

Well, either way slots will be taken up with something. If Lurrus is the companion, then 3CMC permanents get axed for something that, outside of Lurrus, is worse (otherwise we'd already be running them, right?). So why not get the best of both worlds and keep both the best 3CMC permanents and a few new ones to recurr with Lurrus MD, giving us, I would think, a better chance to have it survive a top decked bolt/stp/something and put the nail in the coffin, whereas the companion one gets bolted after we put a ???? back into play and.... 2 for 1 i guess but I don't think that's a true back breaking play to build around as it currently stands.

But, I'm likely wrong as I seem to be in most areas of magic these days haha. I'll tinker with it at some point I just haven't been able to yet, but that is the direction I'll probably start at least.

[ronco]

completely off topic of Lurrus, has anyone built some of the common pox builds on MTGO? How much would a full deck and/or pox "collection" run on there? Thinking about making a jump to be able to play more, but I'm totally clueless on how that all works online.

[OmniStrata]

completely off topic of Lurrus, has anyone built some of the common pox builds on MTGO? How much would a full deck and/or pox "collection" run on there? Thinking about making a jump to be able to play more, but I'm totally clueless on how that all works online.

I'm in love with MtgO. The ancient old school Pox decks run under $100!! Also having Tabernacles and Chains of Mephistopheles cheap enough to run a playset! Not that it's necessary... The only real nuisance is probably the phase changing clickiness of it all. Luckily, Pox normally doesn't cast instants or abilities except for Cursed scroll EoT goofiness. The skip to my main phase option is our best friend. Also, MtGO will crash when an enemy's Ensnaring Bridge can't be popped and you control a Liliana of the Last Hope Emblem... :laugh: Let it run for 5 turns and hope... I couldn't Land jam him and crashed the game with dozens of zombies waiting. I really could have used a Nether Void then...

[OmniStrata]

I'm waiting on the lurrus train, if nothing else so the price can come down a bit after domestic (US) release. If it gets banned, so be it, but I wonder if its better to run it 3-4x main deck? If you only have the one in companion then as soon as it gets bolted/bounced/countered, whatever, then you have an inferior deck. But running 3 or 4 main gives you chances to come back late game in a hurry. Plus then you can use all the lilis you want!

Edit to add: I LOVE the misinformation in the board. I have no idea if its actually a good idea or not, but I made a misinformation/Volrath's dungeon/agonizing memories deck back in the day and enjoyed the misery it dished out on the rare occasion if worked lol. Thanks for the trip down memory lane!

It's old school tech from the original thread. People love waiting 3 turns for a land draw or botched Brainstorms. :tongue:

[ronco]

Well, either way slots will be taken up with something. If Lurrus is the companion, then 3CMC permanents get axed for something that, outside of Lurrus, is worse (otherwise we'd already be running them, right?). So why not get the best of both worlds and keep both the best 3CMC permanents and a few new ones to recurr with Lurrus MD, giving us, I would think, a better chance to have it survive a top decked bolt/stp/something and put the nail in the coffin, whereas the companion one gets bolted after we put a ???? back into play and.... 2 for 1 i guess but I don't think that's a true back breaking play to build around as it currently stands.

But, I'm likely wrong as I seem to be in most areas of magic these days haha. I'll tinker with it at some point I just haven't been able to yet, but that is the direction I'll probably start at least.

I'm changing my mind on this. I haven't tested companion specifically, but out of curiosity I playtested Adachis list above against my basic (formerly) standard Pirates deck. Pox handled the deck easily (not surprisingly) but it became much more difficult when I gave pirates a starting 8 instead of 7, even on the play, and not even "hiding" it in the companion zone. Sooo, yes, it seems decks are at a distinct disadvantage by not running a companion of some sort, even with the deck building constraints.

[Mr. Safety]

I was discussing a GB lantern deck in the modern section and I suggested Smallpox for that strategy. It dawned on me: why not merge Lantern Control with Pox in Legacy? Pox is already a prison deck that struggles with top-deck battles. Lantern is a prison strategy that has a primary goal of controlling top decks. The overlap card could easily be Ensnaring Bridge. Essentially just play the Pox game then windmill slam a Lantern + Codex Shredder to keep them from top-decking anything relevant.

Just a rough list to get the conversation started:

4x Lantern of Insight
4x Codex Shredder
4x Pyxis of Pandemonium
2x Pithing Needle
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Mox Opal

4x Thoughtseize
4x Smallpox
4x Hymn to Tourach (or Sinkhole)
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Toxic Deluge
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Bitterblossom

4x Vault of Whispers
9x Swamp
3x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Buried Ruin


This is just something to throw against a wall. Bitterblossom + Factory for win-conditions so far, which are slow but this is a prison deck in the purest form. Just an interesting idea to test out. I am assuming that companions, in some way or form, will be dealt with on Monday, so this doesn't take them into consideration.

[OmniStrata]

I was discussing a GB lantern deck in the modern section and I suggested Smallpox for that strategy. It dawned on me: why not merge Lantern Control with Pox in Legacy? Pox is already a prison deck that struggles with top-deck battles. Lantern is a prison strategy that has a primary goal of controlling top decks. The overlap card could easily be Ensnaring Bridge. Essentially just play the Pox game then windmill slam a Lantern + Codex Shredder to keep them from top-decking anything relevant.

Just a rough list to get the conversation started:

4x Lantern of Insight
4x Codex Shredder
4x Pyxis of Pandemonium
2x Pithing Needle
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Mox Opal

4x Thoughtseize
4x Smallpox
4x Hymn to Tourach (or Sinkhole)
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Toxic Deluge
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Bitterblossom

4x Vault of Whispers
9x Swamp
3x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Buried Ruin


This is just something to throw against a wall. Bitterblossom + Factory for win-conditions so far, which are slow but this is a prison deck in the purest form. Just an interesting idea to test out. I am assuming that companions, in some way or form, will be dealt with on Monday, so this doesn't take them into consideration.

I like the list . Has Liliana of the Veil died to obscelescence? Last Hope with Bridge is awesome. I'm guessing Cursed Scroll + Bridge is also outdated?

[Mr. Safety]

I just didn't have room for Liliana with the artifacts, and the cheaper disruption is key to playing on curve. Cursed Scroll seems pretty smart actually; it's another artifact to feed Opal. I'll probably cut Blossom for scrolls and try it.

[ronco]

I've long thought these two decks needed to get together over a few drinks to see what happens. I tried jamming the lantern combo into a (bad, unoptimized) pox deck a few years back. It didn't go well, but I wonder if using a karn pox shell would work too, since the pieces are all artifacts?

Regardless this build seems quite miserable for opponents and thus excites me.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

[Mr. Safety]

I think Ensnaring Bridge + Cursed Scroll + Lantern Synergies will be very good. Having Smallpox, targeted discard, and even Scheming Symmetry if we wanted it, would be pretty awesome.

Updated rough draft:

4x Lantern of Insight
4x Codex Shredder
4x Arcum's Astrolabe
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Mox Opal
2x Cursed Scroll

3x Scheming Symmetry
4x Thoughtseize
4x Smallpox
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Dead of Winter

4x Vault of Whispers
9x Swamp
3x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Buried Ruin

Sideboard
3x Pithing Needle
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Liliana's Triumph
3x Ratchet Bomb
2x Nihil Spellbomb
3x OPEN


Scroll and Factory for win-conditions. I got the Urborg count up to 4, it seems pretty important. An instant speed way to draw the top-decked card from Symmetry seems pretty important. It might make sense to just go into Arcum's Astrolabe territory. I think at that point Pyxis of Pandemonium is the weak spot, so that would get cut. Then sideboard the Pithing Needle(s) to get in Astrolabe. Of course, then it's Snow-Covered Swamps and Dead of Winter.

Some other off-the-wall ideas (Nihil Spellbomb seems the best choice):

Nihil Spellbomb
Necrogen Spellbomb
Black Vise
Cremate
Skeletal Scrying
Foulmire Knight
Costly Plunder


EDIT: Black Vise is looking pretty spicy, honestly. Once we get the Bridge + Lantern soft lock I think Vise will be a fast clock. Hymn goes out for Sinkhole in that plan I think.

[Sella]

Do you think 4x mill effects will be enough? Admittedly it isn't the wincon since we have the Pox shell but I feel like it'd be nice to always have 2 out to try and play around Brainstorm.

I'd also try and find room for at least one Needle main just to deal with whatever annoying thing sneaks through our discard. Not sure how I feel about the Dead of Winter since we already have Bridge and Smallpox (and technically Cursed Scroll) to deal with creatures. Definitely deserves some side slots though.

Black Vice could be pretty decent. Cremate also looks good (though I'd rather just run more surgicals).

Edit: Forgot Scroll also answers planeswalkers so maybe Needle isn't as necessary, still just like it as a sort of catch-all card lol but I could very well be tunnel-visioning

[Hardcore]

How does scheming symmetry work with leyline of sanctity?

[ronco]

How does scheming symmetry work with leyline of sanctity?I'm guessing it cant be cast since it needs two valid targets.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

[Mr. Safety]

Do you think 4x mill effects will be enough? Admittedly it isn't the wincon since we have the Pox shell but I feel like it'd be nice to always have 2 out to try and play around Brainstorm.

I'd also try and find room for at least one Needle main just to deal with whatever annoying thing sneaks through our discard. Not sure how I feel about the Dead of Winter since we already have Bridge and Smallpox (and technically Cursed Scroll) to deal with creatures. Definitely deserves some side slots though.

Black Vice could be pretty decent. Cremate also looks good (though I'd rather just run more surgicals).

Edit: Forgot Scroll also answers planeswalkers so maybe Needle isn't as necessary, still just like it as a sort of catch-all card lol but I could very well be tunnel-visioning

I think Scroll can control small creatures, which is what Dead of Winter would be doing. Dead can be cut, no problem. That means more mill effects can be added.

I tend to agree on Pithing Needle maindeck, for 2 reasons: it's another artifact to feed Mox Opal and it's very useful against PW's. Scroll won't answer Oko in any meaningful way, and Oko completely destroys Bridge. I also like that with targeted discard Needle can answer turn off fetchlands, furthering the mana-denial plan. Once the deck goes full on mana-denial and controlling top-decks, Black Vise should be a very fast clock. Fitting it in will be a chore, and possibly not worth the effort.

I'm not sold on Astrolabe either. It's just a cantrip to facilitate Scheming Symmetry, which doesn't seem great. I think the plan has to be mill-rocks to deal with whatever opponent's tutor.

So changes:
-1 Dead of Winter
-4 Astrolabe
-2 Hymn to Tourach

+2 Pyxis of Pandemonium
+4 Sinkhole
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Another option, and call me crazy if need be, is to play Ghost Quarter to compliment Wasteland/Sinkhole. The idea being this: Scheming Symmetry > Ghost Quarter to force a shuffle or just cut off a land for them to actually play the card they tutored. GQ turns into Strip Mine at that point.

[OmniStrata]

I'd cut the Astrolabes for the Black Vises. I'm totally going to test this on MTGO this payday...
Thanks Safety!!

[Sella]

I'm definitely liking Vise + Sinkhole, Sinkhole gives us another way to really wreck Snowko's manabase. Makes me wonder if some Ghost Quarters might actually be worth 1-2 slots just because of the synergy with Symmetry safety mentioned and the fact it can yeet basics.


I've long thought these two decks needed to get together over a few drinks to see what happens. I tried jamming the lantern combo into a (bad, unoptimized) pox deck a few years back. It didn't go well, but I wonder if using a karn pox shell would work too, since the pieces are all artifacts?

Regardless this build seems quite miserable for opponents and thus excites me.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk
Although he is a bit expensive (cmc wise) I wonder if a couple copies of Karn merit some inclusion. Having the option to press the win button and Lattice lock is always nice, and it'd let us run fun stuff like Crucible and Needle with a bit more consistency than shoving them in the main as 1-ofs.

[ronco]

Although he is a bit expensive (cmc wise) I wonder if a couple copies of Karn merit some inclusion. Having the option to press the win button and Lattice lock is always nice, and it'd let us run fun stuff like Crucible and Needle with a bit more consistency than shoving them in the main as 1-ofs.

I had the same thought. It allows you to go less "all in" on the combo (unless that was the goal) but still allow for more slots for disruption/removal. Many versions run dark rits anyway, so he can land t2 or 3 with mana to spare.

[Mr. Safety]

1) karn seems great, definitely an Avenue to test
2) ghost quarter x1-2 + crucible seems decent
3) I don't think I can squeeze in dark ritual. I think overall Opal is better acceleration with the artifact theme, it dodges smallpox, and it makes early turns explosive without sacrificing a card (ritual.)

Good thoughts everyone, this idea seems really fun.

[Sella]

I'm not sold on Astrolabe either. It's just a cantrip to facilitate Scheming Symmetry, which doesn't seem great. I think the plan has to be mill-rocks to deal with whatever opponent's tutor.


I'd cut the Astrolabes for the Black Vises. I'm totally going to test this on MTGO this payday...
Thanks Safety!!

Astrolabe also helps facilitate Opal, do you think cutting it would have a meaningful impact on Opal's consistency? Lmk how it plays out, ultimately I wonder if it'd be worth cutting both Astrolabe and Opal to throw in more discard spells. T1 Thoughtseize/Inquisition into T2 lantern + mill rock is a pretty good line.


I had the same thought. It allows you to go less "all in" on the combo (unless that was the goal) but still allow for more slots for disruption/removal. Many versions run dark rits anyway, so he can land t2 or 3 with mana to spare.

I feel like we definitely want to keep the key pieces like lanterns and mill rocks (and probably bridges too tbh) in the main. I was more thinking of Karn as a tutor for random stuff we'd need outside of the combo.

Safety's right about rits, I don't think we'll be able to find room for those. T2-3 Karn feels a lot less impactful than something like T1-2 Lily anyways

[Reeplcheep]

Off topic does anyone have a good loam pox build? I was wondering if it could run gyruda.

[Seymour_Asses]

This variant seems pretty cool.

On Karn, even without Lattice you can go with Liquimetal Coating to keep your opponent off lands.

[Mr. Safety]

This variant seems pretty cool.

On Karn, even without Lattice you can go with Liquimetal Coating to keep your opponent off lands.

Yeah, I think I'm going to have to buckle down and get some Karns for this. It looks really promising so far. If I wanted old-school cred I could always play Death Wish, but I don't think that's worth building around.

Just tinkering with this list for a little bit first, then Karn is the next avenue. The more I was warping the deck to fit Scheming Symmetry, the more I felt the risk wasn't worth the reward. I think it's better to just not try and work a minimum 2-card combo (that doesn't win the game) and instead just focus on the prison aspect. So with that in mind...enter Winter Orb. This not only feeds Mox Opal synergies but Opal still untaps each turn. Smallpox seems a little weird next to Winter Orb/Black Vise but there really isn't a better land destruction spell at 2 mana. Rain of Tears is just too expensive for Legacy. I think between Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, Sinkhole, Smallpox, and Pithing Needle the lock should be pretty reliable.

4x Lantern of Insight
4x Codex Shredder
2x Ghoulcaller's Bell
3x Pithing Needle
3x Winter Orb
3x Black Vise
3x Mox Opal

4x Thoughtseize
4x Sinkhole
2x Smallpox
2x Innocent Blood
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Liliana, the Last Hope

4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
6x Swamp
4x Vault of Whispers

Sideboard
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Toxic Deluge
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Engineered Explosives
8x OPEN


Spicy? Yes. Good? Ha, I'm not so sure about that...

[OmniStrata]

The doom is against the combo junkies. Us without Force of Will. How does Sphere of Resistance sound against Unfair decks? Without Dark Ritual, no more turn 1 Trinisphere.

[Sella]

Tentative list w/Karn. Keeping Symmetry in the main to grab the important 1-ofs (bridge, crucible, needle, vise) in case I can't get a Karn down and tutor them from the sb for whatever reason, also kept Labe for its synergy with Symmetry (plus its just good ramp and plays well with mox) and threw in a couple GQs. That being said labes + symmetry + GQs could easily go out for something else if we feel iffy on them.

I think 3 is the right number for Karn, he's really good but his cmc is also pretty high for this deck so I feel like he might brick at 4.


4x Lantern of Insight
4x Codex Shredder
4x Arcum's Astrolabe
3x Mox Opal
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Pithing Needle
1x Black Vise

3x Karn, the Great Creator

2x Surgical Extraction

4x Thoughtseize
4x Sinkhole
2x Smallpox
3x Scheming Symmetry

9x Snow-Covered Swamp
4x Vault of Whispers
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
2x Ghost Quarter


SB:
At least 1x more of Needle, Crucible, Vise, Bridge
1x Mycosynth Lattice

For a Symmetry/Labe/etc-less list, probably just do something like
-3 Scheming Symmetry
-4 Arcum's Astrolabe
-2 Ghost Quarter
-However many swamps you're comfortable with
-1 Ensnaring Bridge if you feel like it (contrary to what I said earlier I'm not sure if it warrants a 3-of main when we can tutor it with Karn, but running the random 1-of main feels bad without Symmetry)

Then the empty slots can honestly go towards whatever, personally I'd say a couple more copies of Needle and Vise definitely go in the main and then the rest is preference.

[Mr. Safety]

Cool looking Karn list! I think if you are playing Astrolabe (and it doesn't get banned eventually...) then the 2nd color is basically 'free'. Also, don't forget Liquimetal Coating in your Karn-board!

I think I am missing a key ingredient in my list, something that makes Ghost Quarter better than Rishadan Port: Ashiok, Dream Render. I think this is going to be very, very good at denying fetchland activations and controlling top-decks. I think before even the 5th mill-rock there needs to be 2-3 copies of this card. It means I want Dark Ritual again, which is fine because I'm thinking this will only be a 20-22 land deck. I'll start with 1 copy and go from there.

Ashiok I think will be pretty good at gluing a couple of these synergies together.

[Sella]

Cool looking Karn list! I think if you are playing Astrolabe (and it doesn't get banned eventually...) then the 2nd color is basically 'free'. Also, don't forget Liquimetal Coating in your Karn-board!

I think I am missing a key ingredient in my list, something that makes Ghost Quarter better than Rishadan Port: Ashiok, Dream Render. I think this is going to be very, very good at denying fetchland activations and controlling top-decks. I think before even the 5th mill-rock there needs to be 2-3 copies of this card. It means I want Dark Ritual again, which is fine because I'm thinking this will only be a 20-22 land deck. I'll start with 1 copy and go from there.

Ashiok I think will be pretty good at gluing a couple of these synergies together.


Honestly not sure if there's anything in the main I'd want to cut to splash something in, maybe Ancient Stirrings or Whir could be nice 1-2ofs (could replace Symmetry if I find it isn't live enough). It does give me a bit more flexibility with the sb. And yeah, hopefully 'Labe gets hit next list, but that won't be for a while(?) so might as well play around with it while I can.

Ashiok does look very strong, I completely forgot about him. I might actually just have to cut 'Labe to make room for all this goodstuff lol. Not sure how he makes Ghost Quarter better than Rishadan though.

[OmniStrata]

Ashiok had no effect on Ghost Quarter because we are the ones using it. Not our opponents. :cry::cry: But it does a huge slew of other things that fuqs over mana sources. No Crop Rotation nonsense. No EtB fetch BS. No tutors. No Buried Alive nonsense. If only he was 2 cmc.

[Mr. Safety]

Ashiok had no effect on Ghost Quarter because we are the ones using it. Not our opponents. :cry::cry: But it does a huge slew of other things that fuqs over mana sources. No Crop Rotation nonsense. No EtB fetch BS. No tutors. No Buried Alive nonsense. If only he was 2 cmc.

I missed that! It still forces a shuffle if there is a good card on top (which we would see with lantern.) Just preventing them from using their fetches is the main goal, and then the secondary would be activating Ashiok to get the good cards off the top and exiling their graveyard. I'm thinking 2 copies and some amount of Dark Ritual, at least 1 to give 4 full acceleration slots (3 Opal/1 Ritual to start.) Some lists will have plenty of basics (SnOko) but other decks will be 100% boned from Wasteland + Ghost Quarter.


Ashiok does look very strong, I completely forgot about him. I might actually just have to cut 'Labe to make room for all this goodstuff lol. Not sure how he makes Ghost Quarter better than Rishadan though.

I misunderstood how GQ interacted with Ashiok. Port is an interesting idea, but I don't think it's worth it without adding pressure like Death and Taxes does with Aether Vial. We may be constricting mana, but without Vise we wouldn't be putting pressure on their life total. In this first version I'm cooking up the main goal is to prevent them from drawing lands with the Lantern synergies, rather than traditionally preventing them from drawing action. I could still ignore cards that can't be cast (because not enough lands) but other than that, no lands. The hardest part to achieve, in my experience, with a LD deck is that eventually they draw more lands than I have LD spells. Then they crawl back into the game. I want to blast them and then keep them locked under no lands. Rishadan Port isn't as good as Winter Orb in this setup, mostly because I don't want to be tapping my lands each turn just to deny mana. I need to continue with LD/lock pieces with my mana. Orb is a one-time investment.

Great points all! Keep it rolling!

[Sella]

Even against SnowKo decks we still have a lot of game against them with Sinkhole/Smallpox. Feeling pretty good about this strategy overall, extremely tempted to actually finally invest in mtgo just to give it a spin lol.

[Mr. Safety]

Even against SnowKo decks we still have a lot of game against them with Sinkhole/Smallpox. Feeling pretty good about this strategy overall, extremely tempted to actually finally invest in mtgo just to give it a spin lol.

I am only missing a handful of cards to do this in paper, so that's the route I'm going. I don't do MTGO right now and I'm hesitant to make the plunge. I just need few copies of Lantern and Codex Shredder and I can build this now!

[Sella]

Looks like its a moot point for me anyway since MTGO just hits me with a barrage of connection errors. Thanks, Wizards. When was the last time they updated that client again?

Anyways, for the sake of posting something actually on-topic, updated list:

4x Lantern of Insight
4x Codex Shredder
3x Mox Opal
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Pithing Needle
1x Black Vise

3x Karn, the Great Creator
2x Ashiok, Dream Render

3x Surgical Extraction

4x Thoughtseize
4x Sinkhole
2x Smallpox
3x Scheming Symmetry
1x Dark Ritual

7x Swamp
4x Vault of Whispers
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
4x Ghost Quarter


Taking out the 'Labes to make room for Safety's suggested Ashiok/Rit ratio, plus another Surgical (always wanted to find a way to fit it in at 3 anyways). Between Ashiok/Quarter/Shredder Symmetry should almost always be live, might even up it to 4 if 3 Surgicals ends up feeling less good than I expect.

[OmniStrata]

And now, Land Destruction Codex Pox is born! Anybody know a way to delete decks in MtGgoldfish?:cry::cry:

[non-inflammable]

Ashiok had no effect on Ghost Quarter c.

If you are moving into more Ashiok, would wishclaw talisman be better?

[Mr. Safety]

If you are moving into more Ashiok, would wishclaw talisman be better?

Talisman sounds very good! It's another artifact that feeds opal and becomes one-sided with Ashiok. Nice catch!!!

[Mr. Safety]

Here is where I'm starting:

4x Lantern of Insight
4x Codex Shredder
3x Ghoulcaller’s Bell
3x Winter Orb
3x Black Vise
3x Mox Opal
2x Cursed Scroll
1x Crucible of Worlds

4x Thoughtseize
4x Sinkhole
3x Smallpox
2x Dark Ritual
2x Ashiok, Dream Render
2x Surgical Extraction


4x Wasteland
1x Ghost Quarter
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Vault of Whispers
7x Swamp

[ronco]

Also plays well with Karn too, you can use it, opp can't!

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

[ronco]

If black vise is the main wincon, does Nether void make sense, or is that too much/off topic for this build?

[Mr. Safety]

If black vise is the main wincon, does Nether void make sense, or is that too much/off topic for this build?

I think it's on-topic, but the sad reality is I don't have any, nor do I have the ability to get any. MTGO would be the place to test it, but I haven't made the plunge into online magic yet.

I ordered all the cards I needed for testing my list, along with some extra stuff to toy around with. I really like the Wishclaw Talisman idea that non-inflammable mentioned, so I nabbed a set. I could only grab 1 Cursed Scroll, which is unfortunate. It wasn't expensive, just scarce (and I don't shop around, I just go with one supplier.)

I think for now I'm going to try Ashiok as the way to break Talisman symmetry. Ashiok is much more in-tune with the strategy than Karn, and I don't ever see getting to 6 mana for lattice given Smallpox. I'll mess around with it, start testing and see where the holes are.

I haven't given up on another whacky idea yet either:Spreading Algae + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. It encourages a green splash, which allows for Ancient Stirrings, Abrupt Decay, and Sylvan Library.

[OmniStrata]

Black Vise+Sphere of Resistance sounds more economical. Sphere could be Sinkholes #5-6. I've tested a set once. Never again. Sideboarding extras to fight storm decks is definitely something to consider.

Borrowing the base of Mr. Safety, I'm going to try this over Memorial Day Weekend

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3009914#online

I wanted unconditional mana sources hence the Opal ommissions.

[non-inflammable]

I'm going to try this over Memorial Day Weekend

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3009914#online

needs this guy:
https://i.imgur.com/UA9vGIA.jpg

[Mr. Safety]

Nether Spirit doesn't seem bad, especially where it only takes up 1 slot. I think without Ensnaring Bridge to lock up combat it's nice to have a perpetual blocker.

I'm also considering Lodestone Golem as a potential win-condition over Black Vise. It blocks, taxes, and always attacks for 5. It's a little awkward with Smallpox, but with a high enough artifact count he could be another way to break symmetry.

I'm also considering more copies of Dark Ritual, considering Ashiok is pretty important to the whole setup. I'm thinking 18-20 lands, 3x Opal, 3x Dark Ritual.

I removed the Winter Orbs from the maindeck; they will be in the sideboard for control matchups.

Not having Mishra's Factory seems like a glaring problem in my deck; I'm really leaning on Black Vise + Cursed Scroll to finish out games. I might have to bite the bullet and find a way to squeeze in at least 2 copies.

[OmniStrata]

Nether Spirit!! :cool::cool:

Good Taste is hard to come by...

Winter Orbs with Cursed Scrolls makes one weep. But Lode Stone Golem and Cursed Scrolls, oh my. Also, that golem almost replaces Sphere of resistance. Smallpox is less of an issue if you could sac another creature. Ephochrasite says hello.

[Mr. Safety]

The more I think about this, the worse Black Vise seems. If it doesn't go well I think I will drop those for 1x neither spirit and 2x Mishras factory.

[Sella]

I ran a Legacy challenge with a pox-less list that leaned really heavy into the Lantern plan, including they slow-roll deckout gameplan, which as it turns out does not work great on mtgo (I went 0-5 mainly due to timing out lol). It did convince me to add poxes back into the deck since I forgot that cards like Collector Ouphe exists, turns out pithing needle can't solve everything.

List was something like lanterns, 7x mill rocks, discard spells, maindeck surgicals + needles + bridges, astrolabes, opals. I did try out the Rishadan Port + Winter Orb package.

Round 1 vs sneak and show: i couldve had game 1, i blind kept a hand with bridge that i put in with show and tell, rip Emrakul. Unfortunately even though it couldnt attack Emrakul had his revenge when I idiotically milled in response to a brainstorm and they put the tentacle boi on top and then shuffled back their deck (they had like 7 cards left). Honestly id already surgicaled their interaction so i still wouldve been fine but i also durdled around figuring out mtgos controls and had like 2 minutes left on the clock, didnt realize time worked like that lol.

Round 2 vs Temus Delver: kept a 1 lander g1 that was really good otherwise but then my 1 land (ghost quarter) got wastelanded and i didnt draw another one the rest of the game. sadtimes. lost g2 to typical delver beats, bridge got dazed and dead of winter got forced.

round 3 vs yorion miracles: ramp ramp ramp ramp ramp into threat cast yorion draw 30 million cards counter everythign AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

dont remember anything past that, I started drinking after that wonderful miracles experience.

Anyways, a few of the things I learned:

- I don't think that a land destruction-focused build is going to work as long as decks like Yorion Miracles and Snowko are around, so basically until 'Labe is banned. It works great in theory but you have to open really well, hope that they open without lands, and Uro is a real beating for us overall. Rather than focusing on restricting their manabase its a lot easier to keep them from drawing threats. We can still run wastelands to hit utility lands and shit but I think that sinkholes and winter orbs go out.

- Safety is probably right about Black Vise not being great, I wasn't running it but in most of the games it wouldn't have done much anyways

- Trying to go 50/50 on the lantern and pox bits doesn't really work, I feel like if we want to lean heavy into lantern we need to splash green for stirrings. Alternatively (and what I think would be better probably) we could just lean heavier into Pox and treat lantern + rocks more as tech. Although stirrings would still probably be good, I think a green splash is worth testing if we can work it into the manabase.

- Astrolabe really does sort of suck in this deck, it just doesn't really do enough and its a bit constrictive on the manabase since you have to run X amount of snow lands to make it consistent, definitely should come out for other cards.

- Bridge is extremely good and probably needs to be mained at 3

I'm thinking of moving more towards a Karn build, I think that lattice lock is our best wincon. I'm also going to cut some of my mill rocks and lean more back into playing it as a sort of Pox artifact deck.

Also, I understand your hesitation to get into mtgo safety. Maybe its just that the format feels sort of shit right now, or even that I was playing a dumb meme deck, but I know that if I were playing this same deck at a locals and was able to have some bantz or actual conversation with my opponent the experience would be 10000% better. I'm fine with just clicking buttons when the format is good but when stuff like 4c piles and whatnot are in the meta its just a feelsbad. Also doesnt help that the shit starts at like 8 pm my time so if i actually play every round im up pretty late.

[OmniStrata]

Would Black Vise + Howling Mine + Sphere of Resistance/Trinisphere/Nether Void be asking too much? Can someone remember why the Vise was banned ages ago and why it was unbanned?

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

Would Black Vise + Howling Mine + Sphere of Resistance/Trinisphere/Nether Void be asking too much? Can someone remember why the Vise was banned ages ago and why it was unbanned?

Going first used to be a bigger advantage since you would draw on your first turn. Also mulligan rules were less flexible so you were often stuck with mediocre opening hands. Remember this was also back when you could play Sol Ring and 4 Strip Mines. Each first turn Black Vise could consistently deal 7-9 damage, a good rate even by today's standards.

Remember that Legacy basically inherited Type 1's B/R list.

[non-inflammable]

Going first used to be a bigger advantage since you would draw on your first turn. Also mulligan rules were less flexible so you were often stuck with mediocre opening hands. Remember this was also back when you could play Sol Ring and 4 Strip Mines. Each first turn Black Vise could consistently deal 7-9 damage, a good rate even by today's standards.

Remember that Legacy basically inherited Type 1's B/R list.

yeah, i played type 1 mostly back then. strip mine and wasteland were playable at the same time (tempest?)
dark ritual was a mana source so you could cast dark ritual through your own nether void.
https://i.imgur.com/7vhsk4q.jpg
there were no fetchlands to make perfect mana and black vise was "sort of" cheese wins.
land destruction decks became the "feels bad" to new players.
some of this ^^ i'm a little vague on the dates and whatnot

my list was something like this:
4x wasteland
4x strip mine
4x sinkhole
4x nether void
4 juzaam djinn
4x dark ritual
4x hypnotic specter
8x pro-white pump knights
2x nevinnyrral's disk
1x regrowth
1x ancestral
1x timewalk
1x mox jet
1x mox emerald
1x mox sapphire
1x black lotus

[Mr. Safety]

Update on Lantern brew: I nabbed a set of Salvage Titan to test with Wishclaw talisman. I don't think I can do anything tricky with it because Titan doesn't have flash. There may be a way to work a sacrifice outlet to avoid opponents gaining control of it. I also dug out an old combo from my early days of magic: Tel-Jilad Stylus and Avarice Totem. The idea is to trade permanents, then activate Stylus to put Totem/Talisman onto the bottom of my library. This turns it into a 1-sided effect. It's going deep, and the jank is at 11, but damn it seems fun.

Anyone know of any cheaply costed artifact sacrifice outlets? Arcbound Ravager is the only one I can think of.

Edit: costly plunder is interesting, as well as grinding station.

[non-inflammable]

It's going deep, and the jank is at 11,

guardian beast and wishclaw talisman? i still want to try that after seeing a sweet nic-fit list several months back

[Mr. Safety]

While it is a sweet interaction, I don't think I will be shelling out $300/copy for an obscure Arabian Nights card. If I had that kind of cash I would be investing in Nether Void.

Currently I like this approach:

1) Cut off searching with Ashiok, Dream Render
2) Keep them off resources so tutoring doesn't add up to anything
3) Possibly using Grinding Station to enable the artifact/Lantern package. It mills better than Shredder/Bell, makes Talisman one-sided, and allows stuff like the 2nd Mox Opal to mill for free. Playing fast is crucial to Lantern decks, and generally for Pox decks as well. This will allow the mill plan to be more genuine of a win-condition.
4) Try Tel-Jilad Stylus out as an enabler for Totem/Talisman if the above doesn't pan out.

[OmniStrata]

Could Nether Void fit into Lantern Pox?

[non-inflammable]

Could Nether Void fit into Lantern Pox?

i'm gonna try something; i'd even buy into MTGO.
i'm hoping to get the band back together...
https://i.imgur.com/gnamNX6.jpg

[Mr. Safety]

Hell yeah! I can't tell you how tempting it is to jam 4x hyppie into this brew. Swap sinkholes for hymns and just destroy, all the while controlling top-decks.

[OmniStrata]

WHAT is Gloom!? Hot shyte! Ancient School methods.

Is there a way to delete a deck in your deck collection page in mtggoldfish?

[Mr. Safety]

I made a new thread for my aberration of a deck, here it is if anyone is interested:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33354-Flashlight-Heist&p=1084579#post1084579

I strayed pretty far away from traditional Pox, so I decided to make a new thread. Lantern tech in Pox still seems good, I just went a lot deeper to the point that it really wasn't pox anymore. Comments welcome!

[Mr. Safety]

https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/m21/097.jpg

Vanish 1B

Instant

Destroy target creature or planeswalker with converted mana cost 3 or less.


Well, they finally did it. I can't see how this doesn't become an immediate Pox staple from here on out.

[OmniStrata]

https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/m21/097.jpg

Vanish 1B

Instant

Destroy target creature or planeswalker with converted mana cost 3 or less.


Well, they finally did it. I can't see how this doesn't become an immediate Pox staple from here on out.

A Smother that can hit Planeswalkers!? Now what to cut? Make a 62 card deck? It's coming on scryfall.com as Dementor's Prey.

[Mr. Safety]

A Smother that can hit Planeswalkers!? Now what to cut? Make a 62 card deck? It's coming on scryfall.com as Dementor's Prey.

Some number of Fatal Push/Innocent Blood. It adds a mana to a removal, but it does more in general and gets around Chalice@1. I like it quite a bit. If there's one card you don't want to see across the table it's Oko.

[non-inflammable]

Some number of Fatal Push/Innocent Blood.

if you start dropping the one-drops, why not go a little further and run chalice and smallpox and the "new smother"
you can even splash green or not

http://old.starcitygames.com/decks/122050

[Mr. Safety]

if you start dropping the one-drops, why not go a little further and run chalice and smallpox and the "new smother"
you can even splash green or not

http://old.starcitygames.com/decks/122050

I tend to agree! If I had Chalices I would test it out. I don't know if its worth losing Thoughtseize and Dark Ritual, but it's definitely an avenue.

[non-inflammable]

this Kaheera pox list just got posted to a 5-0


4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Life from the Loam
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
2 Toxic Deluge

4 Abrupt Decay

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond

1 Sylvan Library

1 Barren Moor
2 Bayou
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Hissing Quagmire
4 Mutavault
1 Nurturing Peatland
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland


1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Sylvan Library
2 Choke
1 Damping Sphere
1 Kaheera, the Orphanguard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Liliana's Triumph
1 Nether Void
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 The Elderspell

[Mr. Safety]

It's literally just a 3/2 for 1GG as a threat in the sideboard. *sigh* I really want to call 'bullshit', but the companion mechanic is just that good.

[ahg113]

It's literally just a 3/2 for 1GG as a threat in the sideboard. *sigh* I really want to call 'bullshit', but the companion mechanic is just that good.

If we want to get super cute, it also pumps up Mutavaults. VALUE TOWN!

[Mr. Safety]

I totally missed that interaction. Congratulations, they just worked harder for a Mishra's Factory. But still, free 8th card...companions are stupid.

[OmniStrata]

https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/m21/108.jpg

HHNNGGHH... I could see replacing one Liliana of the Veil with her... I love how this one can kill you behind an Ensnaring Bridge.:cool::cool:

[Mr. Safety]

https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/m21/108.jpg

HHNNGGHH... I could see replacing one Liliana of the Veil with her... I love how this one can kill you behind an Ensnaring Bridge.:cool::cool:

I think Ensnaring Bridge is criminally underplayed right now. In my Lantern doodlings I have found it wins games singlehandedly. It's good early and late, and it shuts off the avenues of most decks to win. Storm and Burn are the only real enemies of a Bridge-based control deck. It lets me play my Bitterblossoms and Cursed Scrolls.

New Liliana seems pretty good, but if someone is locked under Bridge they will actually end up with a fairly large hand size. Liliana helps with that, but I don't think I would be getting that drain 3 as often as I would like. Bridge undermines the ultimate as well.

[Merdoc]

Between the depth of knowledge shown here and Mr. Safty's avatar (love Moxie almost as much as I love Pox).
My 60 hasn't been updated for like... 8 years or so? Need to get back on the saddle because seeing that new Lilly put a flame under my ass.

About half a year ago I entered a legacy tourney. I played Death and Taxes, Storm, Eldrazi Control, and Sneak and Show. While I didn't 2-0 all the matches, I did win them all and it was another 1st place for Pox (REPRESENT!)

So here is a link to my 60 because Idk how to make those fancy table things I saw everywhere. Is there anything that is obviously missing with the new world of MtG?
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/merdocs-pox-deck/

I really like the Necropolis fiend, does this stack need any tweeks to potentially replace Nether Spirit with? Are they even recommended as a sub for Spirits?

[OmniStrata]

I think Ensnaring Bridge is criminally underplayed right now. In my Lantern doodlings I have found it wins games singlehandedly. It's good early and late, and it shuts off the avenues of most decks to win. Storm and Burn are the only real enemies of a Bridge-based control deck. It lets me play my Bitterblossoms and Cursed Scrolls.

New Liliana seems pretty good, but if someone is locked under Bridge they will actually end up with a fairly large hand size. Liliana helps with that, but I don't think I would be getting that drain 3 as often as I would like. Bridge undermines the ultimate as well.

We could run both Liliana of the Veil & Waker of the dead simultaneously right? The defender's hand should become empty quite often if the defender is using their own bridge. I crashed MTGO because my Last Hope Emblem generated over 70 zombies but I couldn't force my opponent's hand to fill up cause he had the mana to cast his top decks. Nether Void not coming up did hurt me as well.

[Mr. Safety]

We could run both Liliana of the Veil & Waker of the dead simultaneously right? The defender's hand should become empty quite often if the defender is using their own bridge. I crashed MTGO because my Last Hope Emblem generated over 70 zombies but I couldn't force my opponent's hand to fill up cause he had the mana to cast his top decks. Nether Void not coming up did hurt me as well.

It's easier to just play your own Bridge and Scroll/Bitterblossom them out, no Nether Void required.

[non-inflammable]

If we want to get super cute, it also pumps up Mutavaults. VALUE TOWN!

more niche but still cute: Hissing Quagmire (elemental) is also pumped and vigilant by Kaheera

[OmniStrata]

It's easier to just play your own Bridge and Scroll/Bitterblossom them out, no Nether Void required.

Technically that is correct. But it was a game 3. I run Last Hope Main Deck. He probably boarded in his own bridge after getting steam rolled by her game 2. I couldn't Inquisition his bridge at the time and I don't run answers to an opponent's bridge as I was hoping to just LD. But sometimes RNG likes you, sometimes not. I suppose Gate to Phyrexia is an option with a horde.

[OmniStrata]

Between the depth of knowledge shown here and Mr. Safty's avatar (love Moxie almost as much as I love Pox).
My 60 hasn't been updated for like... 8 years or so? Need to get back on the saddle because seeing that new Lilly put a flame under my ass.

About half a year ago I entered a legacy tourney. I played Death and Taxes, Storm, Eldrazi Control, and Sneak and Show. While I didn't 2-0 all the matches, I did win them all and it was another 1st place for Pox (REPRESENT!)

So here is a link to my 60 because Idk how to make those fancy table things I saw everywhere. Is there anything that is obviously missing with the new world of MtG?
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/merdocs-pox-deck/

I really like the Necropolis fiend, does this stack need any tweeks to potentially replace Nether Spirit with? Are they even recommended as a sub for Spirits?

Your deck's curve is low enough to do without the diamonds. The Dark Rituals are enough. Diamonds I think do better with 25 land bases. Nether Spirit is fine as is since you have the Leyline Obedience transformational "oops I win" sideboard.

[OmniStrata]

https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/m21/125.jpg

For low mana curve LD approach that synergizes with Lantern and herself. Definitely considering as a cheap threat option with Last Hope Liliana as a way to keep her out of Nether Spirit's way.

[Mr. Safety]

It's cute, but altogether not good enough. The lantern/bridge plan is already good at creating card advantage by making creature removal useless and Ashiok, Dream Render offers so much more as a mill effect and lock piece. Ironically, I have been thinking about running a singleton Nether Spirit just to have an additional utility blocker/attacker in the Lantern strategy.

[Merdoc]

Your deck's curve is low enough to do without the diamonds. The Dark Rituals are enough. Diamonds I think do better with 25 land bases. Nether Spirit is fine as is since you have the Leyline Obedience transformational "oops I win" sideboard.

There are so many games that the transformational instant win combo in the side has stolen so many bad matchups for my main board. I'll defiantly look into seeing what happens without the diamonds. Though it will be a hard sell to pull the Daddy Pox. haha
What if I just pulled the Rits and did bump it to 25 lands and a putting in a Dark Realms or Last Hope?

I was excited by the new Waker of the Dead, however it seems almost just like Lilly of the Veil, but a little worse. + is discard, - kills a creature, and Veil's ult feels more useful unless you change the deck to fit Waker. However, then, is it really still a Pox deck? I've always felt what made a Pox deck was high resource control and low to no creatures.

[OmniStrata]

There are so many games that the transformational instant win combo in the side has stolen so many bad matchups for my main board. I'll defiantly look into seeing what happens without the diamonds. Though it will be a hard sell to pull the Daddy Pox. haha
What if I just pulled the Rits and did bump it to 25 lands and a putting in a Dark Realms or Last Hope?

I was excited by the new Waker of the Dead, however it seems almost just like Lilly of the Veil, but a little worse. + is discard, - kills a creature, and Veil's ult feels more useful unless you change the deck to fit Waker. However, then, is it really still a Pox deck? I've always felt what made a Pox deck was high resource control and low to no creatures.

Pox-Reanimator Hybrid? The emblem allows for pretty insane plays. But yes, having a gigantic win-con like a traditional control deck would be odd. But, it does increase the utility and safety of a Nether Spirit user. Plague Engineer goes up in strength as does Kaervek the Spiteful. So much for Night of Souls' Betrayal... :cool::cool:

[Mr. Safety]

I had a friend that played Smallpox in mono-black Reanimator and it was a really cool deck. It basically took these pox cards in playsets:

Thoughtseize
Hymn to Tourach
Smallpox
Liliana of the Veil
Dark Ritual

Added playsets of these:

4x Entomb
4x Reanimate
4x Griselbrand

And then rounded it out with some singleton threats like Iona, Shield of Emeria, Animate Dead, and additional discard (I think Inquisition of Kozilek) with somewhere around 20 lands, all Swamps. I think Collective Brutality would be very good in that kind of setup as a self-discard outlet/control piece.

To go the other way and take Pox and add in a small reanimator package seems really difficult. You would need at a minimum 4x Entomb, 1x Griselbrand, 1x Iona (for the free wins.) It's compact but without redundancy, or some way to draw into it like Faithless Looting, it will likely be unreliable.

[ronco]

Sadly I think that's correct. But, we now have 2 walkers that deal damage with new lily and Dave. Ash can punish fetches/gy synergy, lili LH can stop weenies and get an ultimate win con, karn stops artifacts, and we all know lili otv.

I dont know, is there enough density for a loaded PW pox now? I'm guessing not but it would be cool.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

[Mr. Safety]

Sadly I think that's correct. But, we now have 2 walkers that deal damage with new lily and Dave. Ash can punish fetches/gy synergy, lili LH can stop weenies and get an ultimate win con, karn stops artifacts, and we all know lili otv.

I dont know, is there enough density for a loaded PW pox now? I'm guessing not but it would be cool.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

I do think there are enough powerful planeswalkers to make a powerful deck, especially if you're inclined to play Ensnaring Bridge. Factories get a little less useful as attackers, so you could probably stabilize your mana by cutting 1-2 of them in favor of Swamps. You'll still want them as blockers in case you don't draw Bridge/removal.

If I hadn't mentioned it 100 times already, I really like Ashiok/Bridge/Scroll/Bitterblossom. Bridge is so good at stabilizing your life total against most decks that it buys you multiple turns to dial up the pressure with PW's/disruption. Once the combat step is removed from the entire gameplay equation you can focus on dealing with the other aspects of the game, aspects that other decks rely on to win. Leaning into Bridge with an already creature-lite deck (like Merdoc mentioned) makes a lot of sense. Ashiok deals with the other primary axis' of Legacy: fetches, tutors, and the graveyard. You're left with one resource to actually deal with actively: cards in hand. If Pox is exceptionally good at one thing, it's discard. Scroll lets you pressure opponents under bridge.

I think about the majority of combo decks that would normally be problematic and Ashiok/Bridge solve a big part of them. Ashiok will deal with any slow graveyard combos (Dredge, Loam) while Bridge shuts off creature-cheat combos (Sneak/Show, Reanimator, Depths.) The only combo decks that are now a problem are Storm and Burn, anything that avoids combat. Now you can dedicate more resources in your sideboard to those particular matchups because Bridge does so much work maindeck. Witchbane Orb seems good for that. For PW-heavy decks like SnOko/Miracles you can likely afford 3-4 slots in your sideboard to PW hate like Pithing Needle, Murderous Rider, The Elderspell, Hero's Downfall, Noxious Grasp (Oko and Teferi are relevant), and the new cards Eliminate and Hooded Blightfang.

[OmniStrata]

Ooh. Superfriends Pox.

4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Ashiok, Dream Render
2 Liliana the Last Hope
2 Liliana, Waker of the Dead
2 Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage

14 Planeswalker Base?

Removing the combat step from games via bridge. 4 Ensnaring Bridge seems too much as it's not very good turn 1 off a Dark Ritual unless a Marit Lage is threatening you. I'd probably have 2 in the MD and 2 SB for those degenerate creature matchups. Last Hope's Ultimate only needs a 2nd card in hand to lethal your opponent thank goodness.

It's damn good 2 Lilianas now exist that can out right win the game alone. Having all 5 planeswalkers on your side hiding behind a bridge is cruel and unusual punishment. Hooded Blightfang is amazing. That and the new Kaervek replacing Night of Souls' Betrayal.

[non-inflammable]

if you are putting ensnaring bridge in your sideboard, I would run some number of Karn, the great creator
the ability to play Karn and put bridge in hand is huge or even get a pithing needle or other silver bullet.

[Mr. Safety]

if you are putting ensnaring bridge in your sideboard, I would run some number of Karn, the great creator
the ability to play Karn and put bridge in hand is huge or even get a pithing needle or other silver bullet.

I second this, Karn seems perfect for PW-Pox.

[ronco]

New jumpstart card. Tiny body, possibly unrealistically costed ability, but cool triggered ability. Is it better than Bob?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200617/e4bdb43c8c5300bdf9fde51090845200.jpg

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

[Mr. Safety]

I don't think this cuts it. The card draw is conditional and the activated ability is too expensive. For six mana you get Sorin Markov.

[OmniStrata]

For Bob fx, I've found Asylum Visitor to be perfect in Pox as a sideboard option for your grindy matchups. She dances around Discard effects and hits really hard all things considered.

[ronco]

Not really a strategy but we can now play with official phyrexian swamps, courtesy of jumpstart! https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200619/e82da23f59c96068d6ab550a203594d4.jpg

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, those are sexy. So far Jumpstart has been a pretty fun product to watch.

[OmniStrata]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2218439

Having Waker of the Dead in the list made it illegal... lol... I'll add her after release. I'll find room for Eliminate too. Had to do some awkward juggling, like cutting Dark Rituals down. Planeswalking Pox?

[non-inflammable]

what's the over and under on the amount of snow swamps you'd need to run Dead of Winter?
i'm for starting a petition to errata the winter mishra's factory as a snow permanent.

also, can i get a pox discord invite?

[kombatkiwi]

what's the over and under on the amount of snow swamps you'd need to run Dead of Winter?
i'm for starting a petition to errata the winter mishra's factory as a snow permanent.

also, can i get a pox discord invite?

Part of the value of playing DOW in Snow control decks is that it doesn't kill your own Strixes and 3/3 Astrolabes (and you also have your own astrolabes to increase snow count).
Without these upsides and with the relatively high likelihood of not having enough snow permanents to reliably kill the things you want in a reasonable timeframe it's probably going to be worse than Toxic Deluge most of the time.

[OmniStrata]

what's the over and under on the amount of snow swamps you'd need to run Dead of Winter?
i'm for starting a petition to errata the winter mishra's factory as a snow permanent.

also, can i get a pox discord invite?

I find 12 snow swamps to be adequate assuming you're running a 24 land minimum. Snow factories would definitely help in the power output of Dead of Winter. :cool::cool:

[Mr. Safety]

I would also look at Scrying Sheets and Dark Depths as strategies of you want to go the snow route. Scrying Sheets can help you find the snow man-lands and potentially other tech. Dark Depths is fairly well established as a strategy in fringe variants of Pox.

If you want more snow swamps to feed Dead of Winter you can cut the factories altogether and try an alternative win condition like Leyline/Helm.

[OmniStrata]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2218439

Unfortunately, the full Planeswalker Pox design fails to disrupt quickly enough and ultimately resetting to an older design that disrupts strong and fast and then nails in the coffin with a Nether Void while also going the transformational sideboard into Oops-I-win Helm of the Void combo... The Waker of the dead is amazing behind a bridge and the triple Cursed Scroll design is very dangerous in the Delver meta. This is for my MTGO design as I don't own a Paper Tabernacle and run 4 Urborgs instead. I also have 3 Chains of Mephistopheles instead of 3 Underworld Dreams because of limited budget for Paper Pox Legends. I do own a single Nether Void from back in the day ^_^. Waker of the dead is also an excellent nuker for melting really big targets late game like a stalled Dark Depths or a late Show & Telled Emrakul. Eliminate replaced Innocent Blood and has proven excellent compared to my old sideboarded Murderous Riders and The Elderspell. I wished they had printed it sooner... :cry::cry::cry:

[non-inflammable]

poxish list: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2020-06-01
mutavault interaction as a vampire with sorin is pretty hot


3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord

1 Ascendant Evincar
3 Asylum Visitor
4 Bloodghast
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Vampire Nocturnus

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize

4 Dark Ritual
3 Liliana's Triumph

1 Blast Zone
1 Castle Locthwain
3 Mutavault
3 Polluted Delta
9 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland


1 Ascendant Evincar
2 Force of Despair
2 Hatred
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Lost Legacy
2 Null Rod
2 The Elderspell
1 Toxic Deluge

[OmniStrata]

poxish list: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2020-06-01
mutavault interaction as a vampire with sorin is pretty hot


3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord

1 Ascendant Evincar
3 Asylum Visitor
4 Bloodghast
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Vampire Nocturnus

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize

4 Dark Ritual
3 Liliana's Triumph

1 Blast Zone
1 Castle Locthwain
3 Mutavault
3 Polluted Delta
9 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland


1 Ascendant Evincar
2 Force of Despair
2 Hatred
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Lost Legacy
2 Null Rod
2 The Elderspell
1 Toxic Deluge


Not really a fan of the heavy creature approach, but now that Eliminate is my favorite removal in place of Innocent Blood, the heavy agro approach could work. The sideboard definitely has inspiration. My only mod would be to remove the giant mana priced vampires and squeeze in 2 more smallpox.

[Mr. Safety]

If anyone is interested, there is a lot of love going around for Pox in the Leaving a Legacy facebook group and a recent episode of Leaving a Legacy did a historic overview of the deck. Definitely worth checking out.

[ronco]

If anyone is interested, there is a lot of love going around for Pox in the Leaving a Legacy facebook group and a recent episode of Leaving a Legacy did a historic overview of the deck. Definitely worth checking out.

I think i saw that was going to be a 4 part series on pox, so could be some good stuff there. I tried listening to it but my phone kept locking up while listening to it. it was through the website as opposed to an app so not sure if it was the site or my phone or a mix of both. Anyway i look forward to trying it again sometime.

Also, some of the memes are pretty good too.

[Mr. Safety]

The 4part series comment was a joke...its just one episode. I use google play for my podcasts, works great.

[ronco]

Well they got me with it then... thanks for the tip I'll try that for checking out the podcast

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

[Mr. Safety]

This is my test version for Lantern Pox. I was ultimately unhappy with the GB version, it didn't have enough gas against non-Delver decks. I was also thinking that the best GB deck in the format has to be Turbo Depths, which is another favorite deck of mine. So I dropped it in favor of this test of mono-black Pox.

4x Lantern of Insight
4x Codex Shredder
2x Ghoulcaller’s Bell
3x Cursed Scroll
2x Pithing Needle
4x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Mox Opal
4x Thoughtseize
4x Smallpox
2x Ashiok, Dream Render
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Collective Brutality
1x Toxic Deluge
3x Wasteland
1x Buried Ruin
4x Mishra’s Factory
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Castle Locthwain
4x Vault of Whispers
7x Swamp

Sideboard
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
2x Bitterblossom
3x Ratchet Bomb
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Liliana’s Triumph
2x OPEN


Suggestions are welcome. I traded away my Lily of the Veils, so I don't have them available. She isn't super great in the format anyways right now, and I needed somewhere to cut to fit in the Bridges/Lanterns/etc. Not sure about Ashiok as much anymore, not with Smallpox already pressuring their lands. It's another mill effect with an additional angle of attack, but at 3 mana without Rituals it seems a little iffy.

[OmniStrata]

Sideboard
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
2x Bitterblossom
2x Liliana’s Triumph
3x Ratchet Bomb
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Liliana’s Triumph
[/CARDS]

Suggestions are welcome. I traded away my Lily of the Veils, so I don't have them available. She isn't super great in the format anyways right now, and I needed somewhere to cut to fit in the Bridges/Lanterns/etc. Not sure about Ashiok as much anymore, not with Smallpox already pressuring their lands. It's another mill effect with an additional angle of attack, but at 3 mana without Rituals it seems a little iffy.


Are the Liliana's Triumphs reliable with the only Liliana in your sideboard? Having No Hymn to Tourachs main deck tells me your meta must be slower. How would you wield your sideboard?

[Mr. Safety]

Are the Liliana's Triumphs reliable with the only Liliana in your sideboard? Having No Hymn to Tourachs main deck tells me your meta must be slower. How would you wield your sideboard?

They are functionally the same as Diabolic Edict with a tiny percentage chance of triggering a discard with the single LastHope.

Sideboard would be for matchups where Bridge isn't good: slower matchups like 4C control, Miracles, grindy decks where Bridge is dead. In comes Hymn to Tourach, Bitterblossom, Liliana Last Hope. Out goes Bridge, Deluge, some number of other matchup-dependant cards.

I would love to have something like Darkblast or Innocent Blood in the maindeck, but I don't know where to trim. The Lantern package takes up quite a bit of room.

EDIT: I realize now that I had Liliana's Triumph listed twice in the sideboard, so that opens up 2 slots for other options. Most likely will be Plague Engineer.

[OmniStrata]

With Mox Opals and perhaps other non-land mana, you could consider Tanglewire. The 2 Ashioks could be swapped. Charcoal Diamond? It'd be a ramping deck. Cursed Scroll with Bridge would be good synergy. Just aim at opponent's head for safe damage. Plague Engineers in an Ensnaring Bridge deck without Dark Rituals feels weird. :confused:

[Mr. Safety]

With Mox Opals and perhaps other non-land mana, you could consider Tanglewire. The 2 Ashioks could be swapped. Charcoal Diamond? It'd be a ramping deck. Cursed Scroll with Bridge would be good synergy. Just aim at opponent's head for safe damage. Plague Engineers in an Ensnaring Bridge deck without Dark Rituals feels weird. :confused:

While Plague Engineer might not have perfect synergy with Bridge, it's still likely the best option. The fact that it has deathtouch will help it immensely in combat. If it kills 1-2 creatures, keeps opponents from attacking, or blocks and kills something bigger than itself it has done it's job. I can always draw my 2nd card, attack, then play it post-combat to enable bridge to prevent attackers of 2 power or more. With the rising popularity/prominence of Goblins and Elves, I definitely want something that deals with tribal decks. Bridge and Deluge maindeck, then Engineer sideboard seems like a very good plan.

I don't think Tanglewire is supportable. It does slow the game down, but so does Smallpox. I don't want to tap out my mana on my turn, I want to continue applying lock pieces and playing out my cards to enable Bridge. That's the beauty of the Lantern + Bridge plan: you just play your cards out, manipulate your own top-decks, and lock your opponent out. Card advantage at that point doesn't really matter if opponent's can't get past Bridge. Once Bridge locks up combat, you deny them their outs to Bridge with Lantern. Then it's academic, just draw into a Cursed Scroll and start pinging for 2.

I'm surprised you brought up Plague Engineer for a Bridge deck but didn't bring up the fact that I have a full set of Mishra's Factory in the maindeck? Factory gets really bad with Bridge, but it still provides blockers and threats when I don't draw bridge or when Bridge isn't good. I might cut to 3 Factories so I can get a Castle Locthwain in there.

Cutting Dark Ritual is a calculated test: it doesn't offer much past the first few turns, opens the deck up to blowouts, and isn't as good as Mox Opal if you can turn Opal on. Opal is like a land that is immune to Smallpox sacrifices. Pox has enough cards that are symmetrical in effect, so if opponents can counter the spell you play off Ritual you 2-for-1-ed yourself. I think in a broad sense this is why Pox can't gain a foothold in the format. Ritual is a necessary evil in most lists to keep up with the power level of the format, getting 3-mana plays early, but it sets you up with a 'combo' that doesn't win on the spot, and sometimes can be simply played out.

[Reeplcheep]

Cutting Dark Ritual is a calculated test: it doesn't offer much past the first few turns, opens the deck up to blowouts, and isn't as good as Mox Opal if you can turn Opal on. Opal is like a land that is immune to Smallpox sacrifices. Pox has enough cards that are symmetrical in effect, so if opponents can counter the spell you play off Ritual you 2-for-1-ed yourself. I think in a broad sense this is why Pox can't gain a foothold in the format. Ritual is a necessary evil in most lists to keep up with the power level of the format, getting 3-mana plays early, but it sets you up with a 'combo' that doesn't win on the spot, and sometimes can be simply played out.

I think if you are correct you want either to go all in on fast mana like my curses deck or more play more conservatively.

I do think lantern won't function at all without md 3-4 chains in cantrip.format .

[OmniStrata]

I think if you are correct you want either to go all in on fast mana like my curses deck or more play more conservatively.

I do think lantern won't function at all without md 3-4 chains in cantrip.format .

If Lantern and Codex Shredder are online, I think Cantrips are already on the backfoot. I had some doubts regarding Bridge without Liliana but the deck's curve and ramp is such that only an enemy Nether Void would jam up the hand. The Rack in place of Mishra's factory can work well if you're playing the odds that you'll have 3 mana on turn 2 for the fast Bridge play. My RNG tends to be garbage and gunning for consistency is my objective at this point.

It really is a shame the newer sets, I find myself hoping for new Planeswalkers for the deck as other card types seem either too weak or too overpriced for the CMC. Setting up Pox for Topdeck cleaning seems like an excellent option with the death of the old Sensei's Divining Top. What's Curses Pox? You've caught my attention. :eek:

[BlogBoy]

Hey everyone, I am semi competitive Pox player on MTGO and have the deck in paper, I just recently qualified for a major event with Legends Pox, I’ll be competing in phase 2 of the ManaTraders Legacy Series. I ended up with a 14-6 record and a 9 match winning streak during the league.

https://ibb.co/dWK55Tt

Decklist is somewhat competitive if anyone wants to try it

Main
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
2 Castle Locthwain
1 Cursed Scroll
4 Dark Ritual
1 Eliminate
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana's Triumph
1 Liliana, Waker of the Dead
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Murderous Rider
2 Nether Void
1 Phyrexian Totem
4 Smallpox
9 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thoughtseize
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Ashiok, Dream Render
2 Bitterblossom
1 Eliminate
2 Engineered Plague
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pharika's Libation
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge

[OmniStrata]

2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 Nether Void
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Dark Ritual
1 Extirpate
1 Eliminate
1 Surgical Extraction
4 Mishra's Factory
12 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
3 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Spirit
1 Murderous Rider

Sideboob

2 Collective Brutality
4 Asylum Visitor
1 Dystopia
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Plague Engineer
1 Kaervek, the Spiteful
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dead of Winter
1 Eliminate

Have the deck both in paper & MTGO. Had a Tabernacle @ Pendrall Vale but only digital of course. After much testing, it really only saved my bum against Empty the Warrens nonsense. Very nasty how Oko laughs in it's face. Eliminate & Murderous Rider are gold. Ran into more Dack Faydens, Teferi Time Ravelers & Oko, Thief of Crowns than anyone would ever like to. Using Ensnaring Bridge was alright, but after a dozen or so games, it felt underwhelming. Could be bad luck random players who won't use creatures. That and having Oko/Teferi botching it up...:frown:

Could someone explain the large number of Doomsday decks online? It's just weird.

[ronco]

I'd guess just easier to set up and pull off online vs in person. You don't need to keep track of mana/storm because the platform does that for you.
Or perhaps people are just bored and meme decking for the hell of it.

Mr Safety, any updates on the pox lantern brew you had?

[Mr. Safety]

Could someone explain the large number of Doomsday decks online? It's just weird.

Thassa's Oracle has streamlined Doomsday into legit one of the best combo decks in the format. Doomsday piles are absurdly easy to construct now and resilient to interaction. You can kill Oracle in response to the trigger but still lose, unlike with Lab Maniac back in the day. Doomsday decks also are packing cards like 3Feri so you can't counter their Doomsday. It's streamlined and doesn't auto-lose if you counter their Doomsday.

@ronco: I haven't had a chance to test the Lantern Pox list much, I don't have MTGO. I use an outdated program called MagicWorkstation, which only has sets up to Amonkhet I think. Most of the deck can operate that way with older sets but I can't goldfish against current tier decks without stuff like Uro, Oko, etc. I need to find another program to test, but I don't really want to sink money into MTGO.

@omnistrata: I don't see Ensnaring Bridge in your list, how many were you playing? I am trying to make sure I have an alternative plan out of the sideboard if Bridge ends up being bad (Bitterblossom, Plague Engineer, etc.) I am also toying with the idea of Bridge sideboard if it's dead in too many matchups.

[OmniStrata]

@omnistrata: I don't see Ensnaring Bridge in your list, how many were you playing? I am trying to make sure I have an alternative plan out of the sideboard if Bridge ends up being bad (Bitterblossom, Plague Engineer, etc.) I am also toying with the idea of Bridge sideboard if it's dead in too many matchups.

I used to run 2 main deck and 1 sideboob in case the big bad hits the field too quickly. Dark Depths, Show & Tell and Reanimator. MTGO is fraught with Dark Depths right now. Luckily, a single Smallpox botches anything they do quite badly. I need to do some League Grinding when I get more confidence. For those of you new to MTGO, Doomsday is here!! :eek::eek: Combo and hi-synergy decks are the flavor it would seem currently.

I really miss Magic WorkStation. Allowed for some really awesome custom cards. Made some awesome Demon tokens using Kazushi Hagiwara art stocks. Last time I ran it was last year I think. MTGO has a large audience thus far. You can friend me as OmniStrata. I should buy a better avatar. The matchups I'm usually running into has the bridge as a minor annoyance. Dark Depths, D&T, ANT and Doomsday. Now I'm curious how "OG Doomsday" used to win. It runs Daze & Force of Will too currently.

[Mr. Safety]

I used to run 2 main deck and 1 sideboob in case the big bad hits the field too quickly. Dark Depths, Show & Tell and Reanimator. MTGO is fraught with Dark Depths right now. Luckily, a single Smallpox botches anything they do quite badly. I need to do some League Grinding when I get more confidence. For those of you new to MTGO, Doomsday is here!! :eek::eek: Combo and hi-synergy decks are the flavor it would seem currently.

I really miss Magic WorkStation. Allowed for some really awesome custom cards. Made some awesome Demon tokens using Kazushi Hagiwara art stocks. Last time I ran it was last year I think. MTGO has a large audience thus far. You can friend me as OmniStrata. I should buy a better avatar. The matchups I'm usually running into has the bridge as a minor annoyance. Dark Depths, D&T, ANT and Doomsday. Now I'm curious how "OG Doomsday" used to win. It runs Daze & Force of Will too currently.

OG Doomsday had literally a book on how to construct piles. It changed several times, but losing Sensei's Divining Top was the first major hit. Then Gitaxian Probe got banned and it really fell out of favor. Street Wraith lists popped up, but they didn't do very well. Having 'free' ways to draw extra cards was critical for digging through Doomsday piles. Their primary win conditions were Tendrils of Agony (enabled by Ill-Gotten Gains and Lion's Eye Diamond), Emrakul + Shelldock Isle, and several Predict piles that involved Laboratory Maniac. With Thassa's Oracle you can really trim down on what your pile needs to win, it's the primary win condition for Doomsday now. You don't need bad cards like Street Wraith to draw through your pile of 5 if not all of them matter as much.

[OmniStrata]

Died Another Doomsday. Would use a pile using Predict, Lotus Petal, Thassa, Street Wraith and Unearth. Ugh. Misplayed an Extirpate and a Surgical Extraction both games...:mad:

[Mr. Safety]

Died Another Doomsday. Would use a pile using Predict, Lotus Petal, Thassa, Street Wraith and Unearth. Ugh. Misplayed an Extirpate and a Surgical Extraction both games...:mad:

Their pile looks like this:

Predict
Thassa
Lotus Petal
Street Wraith
Unearth

Your only chance to interact is when they cast unearth you can play Extirpate or Surgical Extraction on Thassa. If they have Teferi out you can't even do that. I've been eyeballing grave hate that is permanent-based lately, mostly Nihil Spellbomb, to augment my Surgical Extractions in the sideboard. Ashiok is great against the slower grave-based decks like Dredge, but against Doomsday it doesn't cut it. Leyline of the Void is another obvious choice, but I like having a couple Surgicals regardless of other grave hate. I would probably do 2x Surgical and 2-3x Nihil Spellbomb ATM.

EDIT: The lantern package would be very good against this particular deck, just sayin'...

[OmniStrata]

Their pile looks like this:

Predict
Thassa
Lotus Petal
Street Wraith
Unearth

Your only chance to interact is when they cast unearth you can play Extirpate or Surgical Extraction on Thassa. If they have Teferi out you can't even do that. I've been eyeballing grave hate that is permanent-based lately, mostly Nihil Spellbomb, to augment my Surgical Extractions in the sideboard. Ashiok is great against the slower grave-based decks like Dredge, but against Doomsday it doesn't cut it. Leyline of the Void is another obvious choice, but I like having a couple Surgicals regardless of other grave hate. I would probably do 2x Surgical and 2-3x Nihil Spellbomb ATM.

EDIT: The lantern package would be very good against this particular deck, just sayin'...

Technically, you were right. My patience and self-control is the problem with combo decks. The wait and see approach doesn't work with them. One misplay, I did was conservative, I had an opening grip including Urborg, Inquisition, Dark Ritual and an Extirpate. Since some builds run Force of Will, I played it safe and just Inquisition first, I chucked their Doomsday and kicked myself for not Dark Ritualing first to Extirpate as well turn 1! He top decked a Duress. :mad: That was the G2 loss. G3, I got overly aggressive with Smallpox due to G2 and ended up losing a Surgical Extraction *facepalm* :eek:

G1 I won cause I saw his opener off a Dark Ritual, Inquisition, Hymn to Tourach Trio and Cursed Scroll+Mishra him to death. :cool:

[Mr. Safety]

That's unfortunate! Just be ready for it, the deck isn't going anywhere. The more reps you get in against it the better off you'll be.

Just a side note, I think Ashiok actually interacts favorably for you against Doomsday because they can't search their library. I don't know if that tips the scales for including Ashiok in your 75, but it seems really good to me.

[OmniStrata]

I've run into DD often enough to cause a nuisance, but not enough to press in Ashiok. I did notice, they don't use tutors, opting to just disrupt with discard and countering my key spells. They do use fetchlands often, but I run Urborgs with Wastelands and Sinkholes. I typically side in a Null Rod and remove my Scrolls vs. artifact mana decks. (older Sideboard used last month. I've replaced it with Eliminate cause Bant Control makes me weep)

They tend to lose if you get in some early whacks I noticed. :laugh: Asylum Visitor has killed many a DD player after I Big Poxed them in frustration.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, I wouldn't over-board for Doomsday. I just meant they literally *can't* play Doomsday with Ashiok out, it shuts that specific card down cold.

[OmniStrata]

Yeah, I wouldn't over-board for Doomsday. I just meant they literally *can't* play Doomsday with Ashiok out, it shuts that specific card down cold.

Sorry, brain farted. "Search your Library". Too used to interactions failing like Tabernacle & Oko Elks or Chains of Mephistopheles vs. Bob/ANT.

[OmniStrata]

I've had to replace Null Rod with Karn, the Great Creator. Paper Karn is far more wallet friendly than MTGO Karn. There's also the Cursed Scroll usage. Having to remove scrolls when I bring in Null Rod to stop artifact combo nonsense always hurt. If one were to include Karn in his 75, how would one sensibly maximize the -2 wish ability. Mycosynth Lattice seems way too far reaching as far as wishing. Although, it ends the game if enemy is hellbent and without a creature cause you killed them all... ^_^ I'm thinking the mana cost won't work in a mana base without Crucible. I tend to fight with mana counts less than 4.

Any suggestions? Nevinyrals disk is something I thought about in an oogly scenario.

Currently testing Shadow of Doubt & Cling to Dust. Their cantripping is not to be taken lightly.

[kombatkiwi]

I've had to replace Null Rod with Karn, the Great Creator. Paper Karn is far more wallet friendly than MTGO Karn. There's also the Cursed Scroll usage. Having to remove scrolls when I bring in Null Rod to stop artifact combo nonsense always hurt. If one were to include Karn in his 75, how would one sensibly maximize the -2 wish ability. Mycosynth Lattice seems way too far reaching as far as wishing. Although, it ends the game if enemy is hellbent and without a creature cause you killed them all... ^_^ I'm thinking the mana cost won't work in a mana base without Crucible. I tend to fight with mana counts less than 4.

Any suggestions? Nevinyrals disk is something I thought about in an oogly scenario.

Currently testing Shadow of Doubt & Cling to Dust. Their cantripping is not to be taken lightly.

Cling to dust should be a very good card for this archetype.

If you don't expect to have 6 mana for lattice then I guess you just have to go for the liquimetal plan with Karn, but I agree that 4 mana spells are pretty ambitious

[Mr. Safety]

Cling to dust should be a very good card for this archetype.

If you don't expect to have 6 mana for lattice then I guess you just have to go for the liquimetal plan with Karn, but I agree that 4 mana spells are pretty ambitious

You just 100% contradicted yourself in one post. You say Cling to Dust should be very good for this archetype (a card that not only costs 4 mana but needs you to have a graveyard to exile as well) and then said 4 mana spells are pretty ambitious. I'm not really sure how to take your post. The first use of Cling is fine but the Escape is what makes the card considerable at all, and that is the place where it gets ambitious. In blue-based stew decks this card is good at padding life total and drawing cards, alongside cantrips to feed the lands to make it work. In Pox you're actively sacrificing your own lands and living off the top of your deck. I would play other options before Cling to Dust.

If you're on the Karn plan I think you need to have Lattice, it's just too good to leave out. You will need Dark Ritual or some other mana acceleration, maybe Ancient Tomb.

In other news: boys, we got 'em.

https://i.imgur.com/phFDdDh.jpg

[PirateKing]

Cling to Dust is good.
It provides incidental graveyard hate while also cantripping and provides late stalled board state options to maintain positive pressure.
Life gain is also welcome if you're using lots of Thoughtseize or Castle Locthwain effects.
Escape can also fix double dead Nether Spirits if that's your build.
It's not going to be some all star slam dunk of a card, but having game one outs to Uro is huge, and it's impact on the deck is so minimal that it's net positive.

Regarding Karn and Lattice, if you're able to get Karn out regularly, then a single sideboard LED would provide easily for the followup Lattice next turn. Not like we're used to keeping a grip of cards anyways.

[OmniStrata]

In other news: boys, we got 'em.

https://i.imgur.com/phFDdDh.jpg

Black Enchantment killer for 2 cmc & HP?!! Sign us up! Cling to dust can keep us alive! :laugh:

[kombatkiwi]

You just 100% contradicted yourself in one post. You say Cling to Dust should be very good for this archetype (a card that not only costs 4 mana but needs you to have a graveyard to exile as well) and then said 4 mana spells are pretty ambitious. I'm not really sure how to take your post. The first use of Cling is fine but the Escape is what makes the card considerable at all, and that is the place where it gets ambitious. In blue-based stew decks this card is good at padding life total and drawing cards, alongside cantrips to feed the lands to make it work. In Pox you're actively sacrificing your own lands and living off the top of your deck. I would play other options before Cling to Dust.

If you're on the Karn plan I think you need to have Lattice, it's just too good to leave out. You will need Dark Ritual or some other mana acceleration, maybe Ancient Tomb.

In other news: boys, we got 'em.

https://i.imgur.com/phFDdDh.jpg

I'm happy to explain

Karn doesn't have any ability like flashback or escape, so you have to play him out of your hand. This means that if he's the last card in your hand and you don't have 4 mana available, then you can't cast Smallpox or plus your Liliana without discarding him to the graveyard, where he doesn't do anything. But you always want to be casting Smallpox and ticking up your Liliana, to strip resources from the opponent. so having Karn in the deck can put you in an awkward situation.

On the other hand, Cling to Dust does have escape, which means it can be cast from the graveyard. So even if it's in your opening hand, you can cast it for only 1 mana or just discard it to your Smallpox or Liliana, even if you don't have 4 lands available yet. Then, later in the game when you topdeck your 4th land, you can escape the Cling to Dust , whereas your Karn would just be sitting in the graveyard doing nothing.

Hope that was helpful :smile:

[Pittplayer]

So Bloodghast 2.0 has arrived. Skyclave Shade. Thoughts? I think creatures that can be both sacrificed and discarded, and can be recurred without clauses, is the sweet spot for Pox decks. It lacks the triggered return to play of Ghast and the sometimes haste, but it does present a bigger body late game.

[kombatkiwi]

So Bloodghast 2.0 has arrived. Skyclave Shade. Thoughts? I think creatures that can be both sacrificed and discarded, and can be recurred without clauses, is the sweet spot for Pox decks. It lacks the triggered return to play of Ghast and the sometimes haste, but it does present a bigger body late game.

If you only want to play 1 or 2 of them it might be better than ghast just because the kicker can be relevant late and it has more power.
If you want to play a lot of these it starts to look a bit worse than ghast because it becomes difficult on 1 landfall trigger to pay mana for multiples.
Definitely in the realm of playability though

[FTW]

What about a mix of Ghast and this? A 3/1 flyer is a significantly better threat than a 2/1 ground creature that runs into 1/1 tokens and 3/3 elks for days.

[kombatkiwi]

What about a mix of Ghast and this? A 3/1 flyer is a significantly better threat than a 2/1 ground creature that runs into 1/1 tokens and 3/3 elks for days.

It doesn't actually have flying, unfortunately
(The art looks kind of floaty I guess but it's pretty typical for these kinds of ghostly shades to not fly)

[Pittplayer]

Just some thoughts from a more aggro Pox style player. 4 mana and 1 of these with a sac outlet can activate Vengevine. Also, maybe now playing a 1 of of Anger wouldn't be bad. I could envision a 4 Skyclave Shade, 4 Bloodghast, 4 Gravecrawler, 4 Vengevine, 1 Anger build.

[Mr. Safety]

Just some thoughts from a more aggro Pox style player. 4 mana and 1 of these with a sac outlet can activate Vengevine. Also, maybe now playing a 1 of of Anger wouldn't be bad. I could envision a 4 Skyclave Shade, 4 Bloodghast, 4 Gravecrawler, 4 Vengevine, 1 Anger build.

You're way too far into Dredge-vine territory to support a pox plan alongside it. I could see playing Smallpox in Dredge-vine, but there are purely better graveyard decks that play on the same axis and don't need the Pox effects to compete, most notably Hogaak. It doesn't need Smallpox when it can combo-kill turn 2 with Altar of Dementia, which is far and away better than playing a t2 Smallpox.

Also, how on earth are you going to be able to come up with 3 mana to trigger Vengevine when you are playing Smallpox and Wasteland? It would be a super slow version of Dredgevine and probably not as good as traditional Pox.

[FTW]

It doesn't actually have flying, unfortunately
(The art looks kind of floaty I guess but it's pretty typical for these kinds of ghostly shades to not fly)

Oh wow, I read that as having flying the first 2 times I saw it. Ok it's significantly worse than I thought: just 3/1 that can be 5/3 lategame, vs 2/1 that can have haste and comes back for free

[Pittplayer]

You're way too far into Dredge-vine territory to support a pox plan alongside it. I could see playing Smallpox in Dredge-vine, but there are purely better graveyard decks that play on the same axis and don't need the Pox effects to compete, most notably Hogaak. It doesn't need Smallpox when it can combo-kill turn 2 with Altar of Dementia, which is far and away better than playing a t2 Smallpox.

Also, how on earth are you going to be able to come up with 3 mana to trigger Vengevine when you are playing Smallpox and Wasteland? It would be a super slow version of Dredgevine and probably not as good as traditional Pox.

3 mana? There are these things called Dark Ritual. And by your logic, Liliana and Cursed Scroll are also unplayable in Pox. And Aggro Pox is played more as a midrange tempo deck. It looks to spend the first 3 turns disrupting the opponent, then it wants to take that couple turn window to finish off the opponent before they recoup. So by turn 4 we usally have 3 lands in play. Aggro Pox tries to be faster then traditional Control Pox, but is usally not trying to race a turn 4 win like more traditional aggro decks. So no, we are not looking to be as fast as DredgeVine, but we are trying to be faster then the Scroll activations and Factory beats of traditional Control Pox.

[Pittplayer]

3 mana? There are these things called Dark Ritual. And by your logic, Liliana and Cursed Scroll are also unplayable in Pox. And Aggro Pox is played more as a midrange tempo deck. It looks to spend the first 3 turns disrupting the opponent, then it wants to take that couple turn window to finish off the opponent before they recoup. So by turn 4 we usally have 3 lands in play. Aggro Pox tries to be faster then traditional Control Pox, but is usally not trying to race a turn 4 win like more traditional aggro decks. So no, we are not looking to be as fast as DredgeVine, but we are trying to be faster then the Scroll activations and Factory beats of traditional Control Pox.

Or to put it another way, the advantages that Aggro Pox has over Vengevine and Dredge decks are it does not auto lose to grave hate, it has a better match up vs combo, and it can grind late game. It's not as fast as those decks but it's faster then traditional Control Pox. Why I think it's better then Control Pox is that it can actually finish an opponent off before they Brainstorm back into the game while Control Pox has their fingers crossed on getting a good top deck.

[FTW]

3 mana? There are these things called Dark Ritual. And by your logic, Liliana and Cursed Scroll are also unplayable in Pox. And Aggro Pox is played more as a midrange tempo deck. It looks to spend the first 3 turns disrupting the opponent, then it wants to take that couple turn window to finish off the opponent before they recoup. So by turn 4 we usally have 3 lands in play. Aggro Pox tries to be faster then traditional Control Pox, but is usally not trying to race a turn 4 win like more traditional aggro decks. So no, we are not looking to be as fast as DredgeVine, but we are trying to be faster then the Scroll activations and Factory beats of traditional Control Pox.

I think the argument is not that 3 mana is unplayable in Pox, but that Vengevine is incompatible with the strategy of Pox decks, and that Vengevine decks don't want 3-mana triggers.

[Mr. Safety]

I think the argument is not that 3 mana is unplayable in Pox, but that Vengevine is incompatible with the strategy of Pox decks, and that Vengevine decks don't want 3-mana triggers.

Bingo

[Pittplayer]

Bingo

Which is literally why Pox remains a joke stagnant deck and why people dont like posting on the Pox thread. You may be right, you may be wrong, but anyone who suggests hey maybe we should move beyond a Cursed Scroll win condition just gets shot down. I may be completely off base with my assessment of the new card, but I am not off base with seeing people naysaying the card WHO HAVE NOT EVEN TESTED IT.

[OmniStrata]

Cursed Scroll isn't horribad. The original Pox thread stated as such before Liliana of the Veil existed to give it consistency. 3 cmc is actually the sweet spot. I'm a huge fan of Liliana, the Last Hope. I run OG Pox as Smallpox #5. It's up to your pay style. Cursed Scroll have killed countless Delvers, Goblins, Merfolk, Mother of Runes, etc. It alone generates huge CA.

I do dislike the fact that it's usually tough to activate and cast disruption. But there is Phyrexian Totem. The Skyclave Shade totally should have flying. :frown: I'm more of the defensive stance on Pox. Hence why the fun-of big Pox which will accelerate 2/2 clocks 66% faster than normal. :laugh: Trying to hybridize Pox with Dredge, Re-animator, or even Dark Depths ends up with a worse version of the originals, usually. I'm probably the only one still running Nether Spirit. I was going to test with Akuta Born of Ash, but the card requirement stinks. What I think we need is a stronger Discardable threat with low requirements.

With that in mind, Pox like fighting hellbent. Been using Asylum Visitor as a grinder Sideboard option against Control matches. She hits hard and likes both players being hellbent. But, Castle Locthwain has rendered her Redundant :frown: Really looking forward to Feed the Swarm. Now we just need on color artifact hate that's efficient and consistent lol. [Like that will happen]

[Mr. Safety]

Which is literally why Pox remains a joke stagnant deck and why people dont like posting on the Pox thread. You may be right, you may be wrong, but anyone who suggests hey maybe we should move beyond a Cursed Scroll win condition just gets shot down. I may be completely off base with my assessment of the new card, but I am not off base with seeing people naysaying the card WHO HAVE NOT EVEN TESTED IT.

We've talked about so many different options over the years it's hard to count. I wasn't naysaying the new card, I was naysaying the Vengevine plan. I am actively building a Vengevine deck for legacy right now and it has 30+ creatures in it. It isn't a compact package, it needs a lot of support to be viable. However, you don't have to take my word for it, try it out and report back.

Honestly, the new threat is ok, would be better with flying, but its a 3 powered recursive threat. It fits Pox pretty good, but by itself is fine, I don't think you need to go deep into Vengevine synergies to make it good.

[Pittplayer]

We've talked about so many different options over the years it's hard to count. I wasn't naysaying the new card, I was naysaying the Vengevine plan. I am actively building a Vengevine deck for legacy right now and it has 30+ creatures in it. It isn't a compact package, it needs a lot of support to be viable. However, you don't have to take my word for it, try it out and report back.

Honestly, the new threat is ok, would be better with flying, but its a 3 powered recursive threat. It fits Pox pretty good, but by itself is fine, I don't think you need to go deep into Vengevine synergies to make it good.

The main problem is WOTC just not printing Pox like effects anymore. Big Pox is not ideal, and the deck would love more redundancy. Devastating Dreams is close but super hard to make actually work, and Collective Brutality is super good in some matchups and just a dead card in a lot of matchups. We basically need another Smallpox effect if this deck is ever gonna evolve.

[Mr. Safety]

The main problem is WOTC just not printing Pox like effects anymore. Big Pox is not ideal, and the deck would love more redundancy. Devastating Dreams is close but super hard to make actually work, and Collective Brutality is super good in some matchups and just a dead card in a lot of matchups. We basically need another Smallpox effect if this deck is ever gonna evolve.

I think it needs a way to control card quality, which Senseis Divinig Top did really well. That's why my current Pox list is centered on Lantern of Insight.

[Pittplayer]

I think it needs a way to control card quality, which Senseis Divinig Top did really well. That's why my current Pox list is centered on Lantern of Insight.

How does Lantern beat Uro/Oko? Or stop Brainstorm/Ponder?

[FTW]

Which is literally why Pox remains a joke stagnant deck and why people dont like posting on the Pox thread. You may be right, you may be wrong, but anyone who suggests hey maybe we should move beyond a Cursed Scroll win condition just gets shot down. I may be completely off base with my assessment of the new card, but I am not off base with seeing people naysaying the card WHO HAVE NOT EVEN TESTED IT.

We've been testing Vengevine brews for months in other threads, and I've played variations of Vengevine decks in Legacy and Modern for years.

Vengevine generally requires a creature-heavy low-curve with 14+ 0-1-drops to be consistent enough. Casting 2 2-drops is just too awkward for the limited value Vengevine gives as a vanilla 4/3. The body is quickly outclassed. It shines with speed and easy triggering. Otherwise it isn't that impressive for the card slot spent.

Gravecrawler generally requires 12+ zombies to be able to cast consistently, especially when it's relied on to recur Vengevine to regroup from disruption.

The problem is that once you add enough cards to make both Vengevine and Gravecrawler playable, you've taken up so many slots with non-Pox cards there aren't enough control slots to support a disruptive Pox strategy. That's why it seems incompatible with Pox. Without adding adequate support, Vengevine and Gravecrawler are probably worse than other options like Prized Amalgam (which is much easier to recur in a Bloodghast + Skyclave shell).

The new card has potential. Aggro Pox could be possible. Vengevine and Gravecrawler just don't seem like the way to get there, because they have too many conditions to be usable. There might be a viable strategy though with 4x Bloodghast, 4x 3-ghast, 4x Amalgam, Smallpox, Liliana, discard. All that recursion breaks the Poxing symmetry.

[OmniStrata]

The main problem is WOTC just not printing Pox like effects anymore. Big Pox is not ideal, and the deck would love more redundancy. Devastating Dreams is close but super hard to make actually work, and Collective Brutality is super good in some matchups and just a dead card in a lot of matchups. We basically need another Smallpox effect if this deck is ever gonna evolve.

We've had Death Cloud, but it's too mana intensive. OG Pox is a fine smallpox #5. But Balance was the OG super spell. So OP, it was banned. Wildfire was a thing but with so much 'cheating' in Legacy, you're probably dead before it matters. A nastier upgraded Smallpox would be 2 life discard 2 cards, sac 2 creatures and 2 lands. But that'd be BBBB cause Pox used rounding and that would equal 2 Smallpox castings. What'd really be good is a Nether Spirit upgrade. Bontu, the Eternal can't even be discarded... Had my hopes up for a second. A nether Spirit that had lifelink and paid 1 life to recur itself at instant speed would break the deck in a good way I think. :eek:

[Pittplayer]

We've had Death Cloud, but it's too mana intensive. OG Pox is a fine smallpox #5. But Balance was the OG super spell. So OP, it was banned. Wildfire was a thing but with so much 'cheating' in Legacy, you're probably dead before it matters. A nastier upgraded Smallpox would be 2 life discard 2 cards, sac 2 creatures and 2 lands. But that'd be BBBB cause Pox used rounding and that would equal 2 Smallpox castings. What'd really be good is a Nether Spirit upgrade. Bontu, the Eternal can't even be discarded... Had my hopes up for a second. A nether Spirit that had lifelink and paid 1 life to recur itself at instant speed would break the deck in a good way I think. :eek:

Or a Smallpox with flashback: BB pay 3.life.