[Primer/Deck] Pox

[Reeplcheep]

Buried alive for 2 bloodghast 2 amalgam is a 3 cmc threat that beats oko and uro, unlike other options. Seems better to me than vengevine as it has less oppurtunity cost.

[Pittplayer]

Buried alive for 2 bloodghast 2 amalgam is a 3 cmc threat that beats oko and uro, unlike other options. Seems better to me than vengevine as it has less oppurtunity cost.

Buried Alive eats a counterspell every time. Also it makes you more all in on the gy plan, and at that point you might as well play dredge cause its faster. The thing about ghast and vine is...they can still be hard cast with a rest in peace on the board.

[kombatkiwi]

Vengevine + Pox is a joke idea

The problems with Buried Alive are that

A) you have to put Buried Alive in your deck and also put multiple graveyard-based threats in your deck for the card to work, which is probably more threats than the deck wants to be playing
B) you actually have to cast the buried alive (a 3-mana spell) whereas if that card was e.g. Nether Spirit or the new Shade you could have it be your threat but also be happy discarding it to smallpox/liliana. (Or if it was a cheaper threat like Shrieking Affliction it would at least be much easier to cast)

[Mr. Safety]

How does Lantern beat Uro/Oko? Or stop Brainstorm/Ponder?

Maindeck surgical extraction, pithing needle, and Ashiok go a long ways towards attacking those particular cards. Without Chains of Mephistopheles (which I don't own) Brainstorm/Ponder are still the same against my version as any version: really, really powerful. Learning how to play around them is the work of the Pox player. Worse than all of those cards is Veil of Summer, it just blows Pox out of the water. The good news about Lantern Pox is that Ensnaring bridge does so much work against creatures that I don't really need supplemental removal, which leaves room for answers to PW's.

The real question I need to particularly answer is: why haven't I purchased Karns yet? Its obviously the direction that would work best.

[OmniStrata]

Maindeck surgical extraction, pithing needle, and Ashiok go a long ways towards attacking those particular cards. Without Chains of Mephistopheles (which I don't own) Brainstorm/Ponder are still the same against my version as any version: really, really powerful. Learning how to play around them is the work of the Pox player. Worse than all of those cards is Veil of Summer, it just blows Pox out of the water. The good news about Lantern Pox is that Ensnaring bridge does so much work against creatures that I don't really need supplemental removal, which leaves room for answers to PW's.

The real question I need to particularly answer is: why haven't I purchased Karns yet? Its obviously the direction that would work best.

Getting Karn to resolve is an asymmetrical Null Rod, allowing Pox to Cursed Scroll and Phyrexian Totem without restraint. Mycosynth Lattice is just win as Karn starts an infinite LD loop turning artifacted lands into 0/0 creatures. Unfortunately, unless you're on artifact mana acceleration or lucky enough to draw 2 Dark Rituals, it's a gamble play. Pox can stall till it hits the 6th land drop. Ensnaring Bridge in the wishboard makes for easy defense.

I think the other bomb Planeswalker is Liliana, Waker of the dead. She's nearly identical to OG Lili but with a less powerful ultimate. Having her melt a Marit Lage token is one of the best feelings in the world. :cool: Unlike OG Lili, she can actually kill you. The ultimate is far too slow to compete and steal enemy Hogaaks... :frown:

[kombatkiwi]

Getting Karn to resolve is an asymmetrical Null Rod, allowing Pox to Cursed Scroll and Phyrexian Totem without restraint. Mycosynth Lattice is just win as Karn starts an infinite LD loop turning artifacted lands into 0/0 creatures. Unfortunately, unless you're on artifact mana acceleration or lucky enough to draw 2 Dark Rituals, it's a gamble play. Pox can stall till it hits the 6th land drop. Ensnaring Bridge in the wishboard makes for easy defense.

I think the other bomb Planeswalker is Liliana, Waker of the dead. She's nearly identical to OG Lili but with a less powerful ultimate. Having her melt a Marit Lage token is one of the best feelings in the world. :cool: Unlike OG Lili, she can actually kill you. The ultimate is far too slow to compete and steal enemy Hogaaks... :frown:

It's probably better than the other 4-mana Liliana but idk if that's enough of a reward for what you're paying for it
It might be worse than Davriel even

[OmniStrata]

It's probably better than the other 4-mana Liliana but idk if that's enough of a reward for what you're paying for it
It might be worse than Davriel even

Are you referring to Dark Realms or Untouched by Death? Neither of them resemble of the Veil and both run counter to a Pox Strategy, the former could be in a weird Death Cloud variant and the latter is obviously for the Zombie tribal archetype. Too bad it's not strong enough to be playable... Merfolk, Goblins, Elves and (lol) Eldrazi are the tribal agro decks I see. More gobs and Eldrazi, less so the other two. Was Davriel ever considered due to being a weaker Liliana with a micro Rack effect?

[Mr. Safety]

Getting Karn to resolve is an asymmetrical Null Rod, allowing Pox to Cursed Scroll and Phyrexian Totem without restraint. Mycosynth Lattice is just win as Karn starts an infinite LD loop turning artifacted lands into 0/0 creatures. Unfortunately, unless you're on artifact mana acceleration or lucky enough to draw 2 Dark Rituals, it's a gamble play. Pox can stall till it hits the 6th land drop. Ensnaring Bridge in the wishboard makes for easy defense.

I think the other bomb Planeswalker is Liliana, Waker of the dead. She's nearly identical to OG Lili but with a less powerful ultimate. Having her melt a Marit Lage token is one of the best feelings in the world. :cool: Unlike OG Lili, she can actually kill you. The ultimate is far too slow to compete and steal enemy Hogaaks... :frown:

Good points, I actually have 3 Cursed Scrolls already to help feed Mox Opal, which is the acceleration it needs. I am toying with an Ancient Tomb, maybe some number of Rituals, but overall I've been happy with Opals feeding the Lantern/mill-rocks/Bridge plan. I think if I go with Karn it would mean 3 Bridge main, 1 sideboard, which makes room for 1 Karn right away. The other 1-2 copies can be squeezed in somehow.

[kombatkiwi]

Are you referring to Dark Realms or Untouched by Death? Neither of them resemble of the Veil and both run counter to a Pox Strategy, the former could be in a weird Death Cloud variant and the latter is obviously for the Zombie tribal archetype. Too bad it's not strong enough to be playable... Merfolk, Goblins, Elves and (lol) Eldrazi are the tribal agro decks I see. More gobs and Eldrazi, less so the other two. Was Davriel ever considered due to being a weaker Liliana with a micro Rack effect?

I meant Dark Realms, definitely not enough tribal synergy for the other one
I think Davriel is okay, but there is a lot of competition for that space on the curve (Crucible of Worlds, Ensnaring Bridge, Lilliana Last Hope, Phyrexian Totem etc)

[OmniStrata]

Can you escape Cling to Dust to dodge a Surgical Extraction by casting it against a random card in their yard?

[kombatkiwi]

Can you escape Cling to Dust to dodge a Surgical Extraction by casting it against a random card in their yard?

tldr: Yes
(When you cast cling it goes from the graveyard to the stack, then cling will resolve and go back into your graveyard, but as a new/different object than the one the Surgical originally targeted, so the surgical fizzles because its target has disappeared)

[OmniStrata]

Borrowing an old Blueprint from Kroxa, I've come up with this monstrosity for use on MTGO:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3466806

Anyone have a suggestion to make room for Silent Gravestone in the Sideboard? Targeting Kroxa hurts. Or could Witchbane Orb do it?

The R splash covers the toughest permanent for us Mono B users. The Artifact. Granted, Blast Zone can deal with things like Aether Vial and Pithing Needle, but without help, it can't stop a Chalice of the Void.

[BlogBoy]

Don't know if you people care at all about up to date results, but someone from the Pox discord went 41st place out of 672 at Eternal Weekend with Mono Black Control (no smallpox). I thought it was cool.

[non-inflammable]

Don't know if you people care at all about up to date results, but someone from the Pox discord went 41st place out of 672 at Eternal Weekend with Mono Black Control (no smallpox). I thought it was cool.

i looked for the list but couldn't find it. care to post a link?

[streetMage]

Hey long time no post, hope everyone is staying safe!
Still messing around with Loam Pox, here's my updated list.

Messing around with Haunted Dead instead of Nether Spirit.
It has pretty good synergy with Life from the Loam.
Thinking of adding another Liliana of the Veil and sideboarding Lili Hope..
Also feel Sylvan Library is alittle redundant, thinking of replacing with something like Noxious Revival..

Lands (27)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
3 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
1 Nurturing Peatland
1 Castle Locthwain
1 Blast Zone
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Barren Moor
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Cabal Pit

Creatures (1)
1 Haunted Dead

Spells (22)
3 Smallpox
3 Life from the Loam
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
1 Entomb
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Crop Rotation
1 Cling to Dust
1 Collective Brutality

Planeswalkers (3)
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Artifacts (4)
4 Mox Diamond

Enchantments (3)
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard (15)
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Raven's Crime
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Pithing Needle
1 Damping Sphere
1 Coffin Purge
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Crop Rotation
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Ensnaring Bridge

[Pittplayer]

Testing Opposition Agent in Pox and it's the real deal. Also let's you run a Maralen lock. Even at its worst. T1 Dark Ritual into Agent in response to a fetch is back breaking. Also gives you game vs combo. Show and Tell player casts Intuition, respond with Agent. Or maybe an Opp casts SFM, respond with Agent. It's actually really sick.

[PirateKing]

Testing Opposition Agent in Pox and it's the real deal. Also let's you run a Maralen lock. Even at its worst. T1 Dark Ritual into Agent in response to a fetch is back breaking. Also gives you game vs combo. Show and Tell player casts Intuition, respond with Agent. Or maybe an Opp casts SFM, respond with Agent. It's actually really sick.

I imagine you'd want to lose Smallpox then, since you'd need to consistently hit 3 mana and stay there, plus the whole sacrifice a creature part.

[Pittplayer]

I imagine you'd want to lose Smallpox then, since you'd need to consistently hit 3 mana and stay there, plus the whole sacrifice a creature part.

No... The thing about a Agent/Mornsong lock is you need to stop the early creature rush. With Unearth and Volraths Stronghold you can just keep recurring. And like I said, I also run Bloodghasts, which can eat a sac. Agent/Mornsong give a way to end a game out which Pox has been lacking. Also Agent gives Pox a instant speed answer to combo, which also Pox has been lacking. I never have a problem getting 3 mana. Also t2 Smallpox then next turn Unearthing the Agent is a play. The Agent, at its bottom worse, is a instant speed sinkhole/sylvan scrying with a 3/2 body. Not sure how you think that does not belong in a Pox deck. And if I HAVE to sac it to Pox that's fine. You can look at it this way. 3 mana: destroy target land, search opps library and play a land from it, do 3 damage to opp. I know obviously it does not always work out that way. But I think, again we are talking about it's worse use, not big plays like stealing a jitte or a decay, but i think its power is self evident, even just destroying a land, stealing a land, and attacking for 3 is a huge tempo shift.

[Mr. Safety]

I think this card is going to need some discussion for traditional Pox decks, it's pretty good. It is card advantage with the monarch and a threat as well. Curving Liliana of the Veil into this will be brutal.

https://media.mtgsalvation.com/attachments/173/667/637395627165160563.jpg

[Pittplayer]

I think this card is going to need some discussion for traditional Pox decks, it's pretty good. It is card advantage with the monarch and a threat as well. Curving Liliana of the Veil into this will be brutal.

https://media.mtgsalvation.com/attachments/173/667/637395627165160563.jpg

I think if Pox ran this Ensnaring Bridge would have to be main decked.

[Captain Hammer]

I think if Pox ran this Ensnaring Bridge would have to be main decked.

Noetic Scales could be quite good with Court of Ambition as additional Ensnaring Bridges as well. Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage for an additional Liliana of the Veil and The Rack effect. And Waste Not for excellent value.

Basically a deck less focused on land destruction and fully focused on discard synergies, creatureless (except for Mishra's Factory).

Maindeck Karn to let you beat down with Bridges and Scales and search out utility artifacts like Noetic Scales, Trinisphere, Lattice or even something like Phyrexian Totem is also an option.

The main issue is that we lose our artifacts to Oko decks :(

[Mr. Safety]

I think if Pox ran this Ensnaring Bridge would have to be main decked.

That is an easy shift to make. I'm already on Bridge/Lantern of Insight in my version of Pox. This is a gravy card for that setup.

[Pittplayer]

That is an easy shift to make. I'm already on Bridge/Lantern of Insight in my version of Pox. This is a gravy card for that setup.

B/W pox with a Solitary Confindment lock?

[Pittplayer]

Noetic Scales could be quite good with Court of Ambition as additional Ensnaring Bridges as well. Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage for an additional Liliana of the Veil and The Rack effect. And Waste Not for excellent value.

Basically a deck less focused on land destruction and fully focused on discard synergies, creatureless (except for Mishra's Factory).

Maindeck Karn to let you beat down with Bridges and Scales and search out utility artifacts like Noetic Scales, Trinisphere, Lattice or even something like Phyrexian Totem is also an option.

The main issue is that we lose our artifacts to Oko decks :(

The problem with all those rack effects is that it jams your hand while your opp beats down or combos. And when with this enchantment you are trying to keep Monarch, you will just end up losing it to beatdown and your opp will now be drawing extra bolts or delvers or whatever. I think this enchantment, lily, and some hymns/seizes is far far enough. I would fill up on creature kill/wipes instead of racks.

[Mr. Safety]

B/W pox with a Solitary Confindment lock?

That sounds really sexy, actually. I think Ensnaring Bridge is generally going to be a better all-around card for most Pox decks, without needing a white splash, but white offers a lot of options. Considering we will likely want a win condition outside of combat, that means we might be able to cut some number of Factories to make the mana work. Honestly, I think it might even be worth playing Snow basics and Astrolabe. Astrolabe provides more artifacts for Mox Opal (which I'm playing), helps settle mana and makes the lands bullet-proof, and gives much needed velocity. Solitary Confinement could really pull all that together. I mean, we could even play Swords to Plowshares. I have to be honest, this is looking spicy as hell. I think I need to pick up some cards, lol.

[ChrisDissent]

No... The thing about a Agent/Mornsong lock is you need to stop the early creature rush. With Unearth and Volraths Stronghold you can just keep recurring. And like I said, I also run Bloodghasts, which can eat a sac. Agent/Mornsong give a way to end a game out which Pox has been lacking. Also Agent gives Pox a instant speed answer to combo, which also Pox has been lacking. I never have a problem getting 3 mana. Also t2 Smallpox then next turn Unearthing the Agent is a play. The Agent, at its bottom worse, is a instant speed sinkhole/sylvan scrying with a 3/2 body. Not sure how you think that does not belong in a Pox deck. And if I HAVE to sac it to Pox that's fine. You can look at it this way. 3 mana: destroy target land, search opps library and play a land from it, do 3 damage to opp. I know obviously it does not always work out that way. But I think, again we are talking about it's worse use, not big plays like stealing a jitte or a decay, but i think its power is self evident, even just destroying a land, stealing a land, and attacking for 3 is a huge tempo shift.

Hello Pittplayer, any list you would like to share with us ? I do like your take with the new combo.

[OmniStrata]

I think this card is going to need some discussion for traditional Pox decks, it's pretty good. It is card advantage with the monarch and a threat as well. Curving Liliana of the Veil into this will be brutal.

https://media.mtgsalvation.com/attachments/173/667/637395627165160563.jpg

A 4 turn clock on hellbent? But Creatures must not touch you? 3 Turns if a Big Pox resolves?! I'm game. Packing bridge is a requirement. But I'd include 3 Drown in Sorrow along side our 6+ sac effects. Noetic Scales is a damn good option next to the Bridge. This Prison looks nasty & the Monarch Mechanic throws away the key.

[Pittplayer]

Ensnaring Bridge, Lily OTV, Lily TLH, and.... Plague Reaver? Seem good?

[OmniStrata]

Plague Reaver?

Plague Reaver {2}{B}
Creature — Beast
At the beginning of your end step, sacrifice each other creature you control.
Discard two cards, Sacrifice Plague Reaver: Choose target opponent. Return Plague Reaver to the battlefield under that player's control at the beginning of their next upkeep.
6/5

?? That's something to be weary of. If you're bridge gets dealt with, and you have no sac effects, that's a lot of pain, if you gave it to your foe. However, if we're running expendable creatures, it's a monster of a wincon. I'd just smash them with this guy instead. No fancy strategies needed.

[kombatkiwi]

I think Plague Reaver could be very strong in a version of the deck that emphasizes Loam
- Loam lets you refill your hand to discard cards to this
- In a Loam deck you probably have tutors for lands (whether Entomb or Crop Rotation or whatever) which is useful because this card is highly synergistic with Maze of Ith or Homeward Path
- I would probably avoid trying to combo this with Ensnaring Bridge because with a bridge in play you have already shut out the opponent's creatures and it stops you from attacking with your own 6/5

[OmniStrata]

Ensnaring Bridge, Lily OTV, Lily TLH, and.... Plague Reaver? Seem good?

On 2nd thought, replace Plague Reaver with Rotting Regisaur and Ensnaring Bridge with Cursed Scroll. Now you have a more straight forward, reliable, and faster clock. :cool:

[Captain Hammer]

Court of Ambition works great with Ensnaring Bridge. Thats the reason we are discussing Bridge/Noetic Scales.

Adding creatures to a Bridge/Scales deck doesnt make sense.

I would recommend discussing other cards that work well with Bridge/Scales such as Liliana and Bottled Clostier instead.

[Pittplayer]

On 2nd thought, replace Plague Reaver with Rotting Regisaur and Ensnaring Bridge with Cursed Scroll. Now you have a more straight forward, reliable, and faster clock. :cool:

I'm only looking at Reaver as a recurring board wipe. So not sure how Regisaur does the same thing in your view?

[Reeplcheep]

A board wipe that costs you 2 additional cards & at minimum 6 life seems a lot worse than toxic deluge at first glance.

[Pittplayer]

A board wipe that costs you 2 additional cards & at minimum 6 life seems a lot worse than toxic deluge at first glance.

That is why I was saying pair it with ensnaring bridge. And I am mainly talking about it because it's a recurring boardwipe, unlike toxic deluge.

[Reeplcheep]

That is why I was saying pair it with ensnaring bridge. And I am mainly talking about it because it's a recurring boardwipe, unlike toxic deluge.

That seems like a lot more work than The Abyss. Generally with bridge you have time, not 2 cards in your hand to discard.

[Pittplayer]

That seems like a lot more work than The Abyss. Generally with bridge you have time, not 2 cards in your hand to discard.

Again. The Abyss...is not a board wipe.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't really like Plague Reaver, not in a deck playing Smallpox. It makes sequencing awkward, especially given that you can't predict the many turns in the future what your opponent will be drawing. This gets exacerbated with the cantrips because they will see a ton of cards to not only answer your Bridge but also possibly just beat your face in with a 6/5.

I think the more exciting approach is with Court of Ambition. It's a 4-mana play that is exactly what you want, and it affects the game in the way you want. It provides card advantage (monarch) while disrupting your opponents (discard.) If you can get your opponent's to zero cards (Hymn, Smallpox, Liliana OTV) then it becomes a clock, and a fast one at that. I think it reliably ends the game in 3 turns once your opponent is hellbent. The one thing that could possibly be a sticking point is actually having too many cards in hand once you have the Monarch, especially if you don't have a Liliana. I think something like a singleton Raven's Crime could be a good mana/card sink that supports Court of Ambition nicely.

[OmniStrata]

I don't really like Plague Reaver, not in a deck playing Smallpox. It makes sequencing awkward, especially given that you can't predict the many turns in the future what your opponent will be drawing. This gets exacerbated with the cantrips because they will see a ton of cards to not only answer your Bridge but also possibly just beat your face in with a 6/5.

I think the more exciting approach is with Court of Ambition. It's a 4-mana play that is exactly what you want, and it affects the game in the way you want. It provides card advantage (monarch) while disrupting your opponents (discard.) If you can get your opponent's to zero cards (Hymn, Smallpox, Liliana OTV) then it becomes a clock, and a fast one at that. I think it reliably ends the game in 3 turns once your opponent is hellbent. The one thing that could possibly be a sticking point is actually having too many cards in hand once you have the Monarch, especially if you don't have a Liliana. I think something like a singleton Raven's Crime could be a good mana/card sink that supports Court of Ambition nicely.

Yes. Reaver needs to be a "cute combo". I mentioned Rotting Regisaur not as a recurring board wiper but as a huge beater that will wipe someone who won't block for 3 turns.

The Court is best under Liliana of the Veil, Ensnaring Bridge, & Liliana the Last Hope. Getting the 2nd Card for Hope's Emblem to overrun your foes is made faster as a Monarch through the Bridge. It also makes Cursed Scroll awkward making it the obvious cut unless the deck has only 1-3 mana spells so you can use everything you draw easily. The Bottled Cloister idea is epic but is probably too mana intensive when Monarch is enough. I see that it allows you to keep a huge hand under the Bridge if given time.:cool:

[Reeplcheep]

I don't really like Plague Reaver, not in a deck playing Smallpox. It makes sequencing awkward, especially given that you can't predict the many turns in the future what your opponent will be drawing. This gets exacerbated with the cantrips because they will see a ton of cards to not only answer your Bridge but also possibly just beat your face in with a 6/5.

I think the more exciting approach is with Court of Ambition. It's a 4-mana play that is exactly what you want, and it affects the game in the way you want. It provides card advantage (monarch) while disrupting your opponents (discard.) If you can get your opponent's to zero cards (Hymn, Smallpox, Liliana OTV) then it becomes a clock, and a fast one at that. I think it reliably ends the game in 3 turns once your opponent is hellbent. The one thing that could possibly be a sticking point is actually having too many cards in hand once you have the Monarch, especially if you don't have a Liliana. I think something like a singleton Raven's Crime could be a good mana/card sink that supports Court of Ambition nicely.

I think instead of bridge court would be best in a removal.dec shell. Bitterblossoms/plague engineer/snuff outs to do anything to protect the queen, and then court + maybe a few hymns & thoughtseize should make quick work of any non creature deck.

[Mr. Safety]

That seems reasonable, for sure. Maindeck Plague Engineers alone would be very powerful. If Smallpox gets cut with a focus on spot removal then there is less reason to go deep into Ensnaring Bridge, but you would be more susceptible to top-decks. When your draw engine is a 4-drop it makes it a little dicey, depending on the matchup, but especially against Delver decks. I think it's generally better to play Smallpox, some spot removal, and Bridge. You want more removal/locks then they have threats, then it's just a matter of who wins the disruption war (counterspells vs discard) to see what sticks. The good news is that Pox has been historically good against Delver decks because of the absurd resource denial. Uro and Oko are big problems though. Smallpox strains their resources so well but Bridge is weak to Oko.

Also, if you're playing Bitterblossom you could also include some number of Cabal Therapy. I don't see Bitterblossom as bad in a Bridge deck either; I think Bitterblossom is one of the best underplayed cards in Legacy.

[OmniStrata]

I've had to squeeze in Bottled Cloister to consider Ensnaring Bridge and Court of Ambition. When it becomes available in MTGO, I can get to testing it. It's highly mana intensive, but I'm hoping the advantage is worth the prices paid.

[BlogBoy]

Any chance you Pox players going to update this premier? Its really old. On a side note, I think Karn Pox is currently the most successful variant of Pox. Been having a 50+% winrate at an MTGO League level in 11 events so far and plan to scale up the competition. Adachi Ryosuke returned back with Karn Pox and if you don't know him he is easily the best Pox player in the world.

[ronco]

I think there would have to be a new thread to do that, as OP doesn't post anymore I dont think. I'd do it but im far from the expert haha.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

[OmniStrata]

There seems to be a leaning in the discord thread to cut smallpox altogether and if I were to update the primer, I'd never do it. Otherwise, we'd just post in another thread. It's just mono-black control at that point. Pox would be dead as an archetype. :frown: I can't update the primer as I'd be too biased to hold onto an ancient outdated card aka Balance 3.0. The idea was to work with Balance 2.0 which was big Pox, but that one got cut for being inefficient. Smallpox is now the staple and the deck was evolved into Smallpox. Now people are saying Smallpox isn't good enough.

My excessively loud opinion is that you can't call yourself a Pox player if you're not running a Pox effect: life + land + hand + creatures must die in one card. Death Cloud counts but the X is nasty. What other spell Searing touches, Sinkholes, Innocent Bloods and Raven's Crimes all at once?

I fear the people that play to win must simply abandon the archetype and GTFO. Just my $0.02. :cool: Until WotC allows mass disruption to be fun again, we're going to see more Uro & Oko such nonsense without equal disruption to offset the advantages. I hoped that Kroxa could offset Uro but he just simply isn't. There is no equivalent Planeswalker to counter balance Oko. Instead, we'll see more free power spells like Force of Negation & Force of Vigor.

Anyone else feel like WoTC is throwing disruption players under the bus and only allowing Permission and combo players to have all he fun?

[Erdvermampfa]

I think the far more serious problem for any mono black deck nowadays is Veil of Summer. Oko and Uro can all be solved somehow by adapting but Veil can't (untargeted discard sucks). Discard is not viable as anti-control and anti-combo measure anymore and this is a fundamental change to the format and mono black specifically. I argue that any mono black deck is unviable as long as Veil is legal.

One can hope that wizards will ban it some day because they realize it's unhealthly that discard strategies are completely unplayable in such a combo heavy format. It's clear that the format wont stay the way it is right now because complaints are everywhere. My fear however is that it will only either hit either Oko or Uro while Veil stays untouched because R&D doesnt realize its devastating effect on this format.

[Mr. Safety]

Veil is actually not that common right now, it shows up as maybe a 2-of in some sideboards. It's a metagame dependent card: if people get blown out from Veil of Summer they adapt, then Veil of Summer gets worse, then people trim down on copies, then it opens up the door for black disruption again.

I've been on Lantern Pox for a few months now, albeit with no serious testing, and I love it. Smallpox synergizes with that strategy perfectly by denying resources and getting me hellbent so I can leverage Ensnaring Bridge and the Lantern/Mill rock combo. My one real issue with the deck is its lack of velocity; I can usually play around disruption and lock up the game with Bridge and Ashiok, Dream Render but I don't always draw into them. The Lantern/Mill rock engine can really churn through my top-decks nicely, but it doesn't give me what I really need which is some sort of cantrip-like filtering. I could always splash green for Ancient Stirrings, Abrupt Decay, and Sylvan Library again but I wasn't super happy with that setup.

Any suggestions for ways of gaining velocity in mono-black? I already have 1x Castle Locthwain in the list, which is decent, but all of the velocity currently is in the mid-late game. I'm looking for something early, like turns 1-3.

[ronco]

Veil is actually not that common right now, it shows up as maybe a 2-of in some sideboards. It's a metagame dependent card: if people get blown out from Veil of Summer they adapt, then Veil of Summer gets worse, then people trim down on copies, then it opens up the door for black disruption again.

I've been on Lantern Pox for a few months now, albeit with no serious testing, and I love it. Smallpox synergizes with that strategy perfectly by denying resources and getting me hellbent so I can leverage Ensnaring Bridge and the Lantern/Mill rock combo. My one real issue with the deck is its lack of velocity; I can usually play around disruption and lock up the game with Bridge and Ashiok, Dream Render but I don't always draw into them. The Lantern/Mill rock engine can really churn through my top-decks nicely, but it doesn't give me what I really need which is some sort of cantrip-like filtering. I could always splash green for Ancient Stirrings, Abrupt Decay, and Sylvan Library again but I wasn't super happy with that setup.

Any suggestions for ways of gaining velocity in mono-black? I already have 1x Castle Locthwain in the list, which is decent, but all of the velocity currently is in the mid-late game. I'm looking for something early, like turns 1-3.

It's pretty old tech, but has Bob been tried? Doesn't play well with smallpox, but great as a follow up.

[Pittplayer]

Veil is actually not that common right now, it shows up as maybe a 2-of in some sideboards. It's a metagame dependent card: if people get blown out from Veil of Summer they adapt, then Veil of Summer gets worse, then people trim down on copies, then it opens up the door for black disruption again.

I've been on Lantern Pox for a few months now, albeit with no serious testing, and I love it. Smallpox synergizes with that strategy perfectly by denying resources and getting me hellbent so I can leverage Ensnaring Bridge and the Lantern/Mill rock combo. My one real issue with the deck is its lack of velocity; I can usually play around disruption and lock up the game with Bridge and Ashiok, Dream Render but I don't always draw into them. The Lantern/Mill rock engine can really churn through my top-decks nicely, but it doesn't give me what I really need which is some sort of cantrip-like filtering. I could always splash green for Ancient Stirrings, Abrupt Decay, and Sylvan Library again but I wasn't super happy with that setup.

Any suggestions for ways of gaining velocity in mono-black? I already have 1x Castle Locthwain in the list, which is decent, but all of the velocity currently is in the mid-late game. I'm looking for something early, like turns 1-3.

My Pox draw engine is Bloodghast with either Faithless Looting and/or Village Rites.

[Mr. Safety]

I've tried Dark Confidant before, usually out of the sideboard. I think there are plenty of ways to create actual card advantage in the setup; I mean, the Lantern + Mill rock combo essentially invalidates anything that isn't an answer to Ensnaring Bridge. What I need is velocity, a way to see more cards in the early game to craft turns that lead to the endpoint of Bridge + Lantern engine. Ancient Stirrings may just be the literal best card for the strategy, I just don't know if it's worth splashing green for it. Abrupt Decay is definitely a good option, but there are lots of colorless lands right now in the list. Mishra's Factory has been very good at staving off early aggression and stonewalling Arcanist and Wasteland speaks for itself. I have plenty of uses for the colorless mana so they are essentially a free-role in this deck. Even with Mox Opal, the deck had color issues.

I love the Bloodghast + value cards engine, I've used off/on for years in Pox. I wish I had the room for it, but I just don't with the Lantern setup. For reference, here is my current (very budget!) list.

4x Lantern of Insight
4x Codex Shredder
4x Ghoulcaller's Bell
4x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Pithing Needle
3x Mox Opal
2x Cursed Scroll
4x Smallpox
2x Dark Ritual
2x Collective Brutality
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Ashiok, Dream Render
4x Thoughtseize

4x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
1x Buried Ruin
4x Vault of Whispers
1x Castle Locthwain
9x Swamp

[OmniStrata]

Bob was ancient tech used by Reid Duke in his last published Pox lists. He just took out the Innocent Bloods after siding them in. I've been using Asylum Visitor as a budget replacement in my non-ensnaring Bridge lists. She hits like a truck and plays very well with Lilianas, Smallpoxes, and Dark Ritual. Drawing extra cards during your opponent's turn also dodges Narset.

[Pittplayer]

To match Uro's power level, why cant Kroxa have had, when it enters play each player sacrifices a land, discards a card, and loses 3 life? Kroxa is so underpowered compared to Uro. And it would have helped push Pox decks to a playable deck in the current era of legacy.

[Mr. Safety]

Is Mishra's Bauble good enough? It creates velocity, works with the Mill rocks as a 1-use Lantern, and it's free. I might grab some and try it out.

[OmniStrata]

To match Uro's power level, why cant Kroxa have had, when it enters play each player sacrifices a land, discards a card, and loses 3 life? Kroxa is so underpowered compared to Uro. And it would have helped push Pox decks to a playable deck in the current era of legacy.

They must have only noted that Kroxa does 9 damage on Hellbent and thought, "This is enough" derp... Each Player losing resources when he attacks wouldn't offset Uro. Defending Player only would be best since Uro affects only 1 side.

[Pittplayer]

They must have only noted that Kroxa does 9 damage on Hellbent and thought, "This is enough" derp... Each Player losing resources when he attacks wouldn't offset Uro. Defending Player only would be best since Uro affects only 1 side.

I figured just your opp sacrificing would be seen as OP.

[OmniStrata]

Actually, the balance would have been: discard a land card or sacrifice a land, otherwise defending player loses 3 life. This way, Kroxa would be card advantage. Uro is always advantage just for the draw effect. Just getting bolted if they can't discard isn't enough.

[Pittplayer]

Actually, the balance would have been: discard a land card or sacrifice a land, otherwise defending player loses 3 life. This way, Kroxa would be card advantage. Uro is always advantage just for the draw effect. Just getting bolted if they can't discard isn't enough.

Your Kroxa is still way worse then Uro. There are tons of discard/sac OR lose life. They are all bad.

[Fox]

Your Kroxa is still way worse then Uro. There are tons of discard/sac OR lose life. They are all bad.

Uro has a lower escape cost than Kroxa, never forget. Escape 5 = escape 4 when you draw a bonus card. Kroxa is much worse than Uro, and much much worse than Cling.

[Reeplcheep]

Uro has a lower escape cost than Kroxa, never forget. Escape 5 = escape 4 when you draw a bonus card. Kroxa is much worse than Uro, and much much worse than Cling.

Implying cling is better than uro is pretty crazy

[Mr. Safety]

He's saying Cling is better than Kroxa, which is debatable. It might be a better effect in the metagame but Kroxa is definitely a more powerful card than Cling to Dust.

[Reeplcheep]

He's saying Cling is better than Kroxa, which is debatable. It might be a better effect in the metagame but Kroxa is definitely a more powerful card than Cling to Dust.

Maybe he worded it poorly, but if (C-K)>(U-K) -> C>U.

[Fox]

Maybe he worded it poorly, but if (C-K)>(U-K) -> C>U.

Uro and Kroxa are in different decks, so you end up immediately playing from behind versus the legacy format if you're on Kroxa. Knowing that you're against Uro, and Uro is that much better, your Kroxa should be Cling. So Kroxa is worse than Uro, and playing Kroxa over Cling is a doubly worse decision.

Pox is not a deck with an inherent way of dictating how a game will go, so you really don't have any tempo reservoir to pull from when you pull out a janky 6/6 that attacks a resource you don't care about (life total). The early game is the problem for Pox, and Cling is the card that will provide disruption and consistency towards the 3-4cmc plan. With Pox you're already critically low on CA and lifegain, and you know where people are going for value looping: the GY (Uro, Sanctuary, Dreadhorde, SCM, etc).

Any time someone brings up Kroxa we really need to point out that Delver plays Bolt (life total under pressure), Wasteland (vs Badlands for Kroxa, so falling especially far behind), and the card they discard is just going to get flashed back by a Dreadhorde. If you never wanted to survive to cast a 3-4cmc spell [right into Daze], then Kroxa has your back.

[OmniStrata]

Technically, Kroxa is a 2 turn clock after Mishra's Factory or Cursed Scroll hits you and both players are hellbent. And if you're running Kroxa, there's nothing stopping you from running lightning bolts either.

I tested Kroxa Pox and a few variants of it. It didn't take long to just abandon the idea and go Hogaak Pox. :cry:

[PirateKing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GmejbCdAqc

Here is a recent video of me playing old fuddy Pox to middling success. I still think the deck has answers to just about everything, but with exactly zero was to sequence those answers, you're left at the mercy of the deck to RNG you up the cards in order... something I've always struggled with, if that could even be considered a thing. Either way; I'll continue to defiantly yell at clouds, so if anybody is interested in this stuff, let me know.

[BlogBoy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GmejbCdAqc

Here is a recent video of me playing old fuddy Pox to middling success. I still think the deck has answers to just about everything, but with exactly zero was to sequence those answers, you're left at the mercy of the deck to RNG you up the cards in order... something I've always struggled with, if that could even be considered a thing. Either way; I'll continue to defiantly yell at clouds, so if anybody is interested in this stuff, let me know.

Always cool to see Pox on camera. Surprised by the amount of random one ofs and low land count normally Pox does best with redundancy of some sort because there isn't quality card selection in the archtype, you have to rely on just drawing them. Deck self taxes itself so 21 lands really becomes a liability. Congrats on the win though.

[Mr. Safety]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GmejbCdAqc

Here is a recent video of me playing old fuddy Pox to middling success. I still think the deck has answers to just about everything, but with exactly zero was to sequence those answers, you're left at the mercy of the deck to RNG you up the cards in order... something I've always struggled with, if that could even be considered a thing. Either way; I'll continue to defiantly yell at clouds, so if anybody is interested in this stuff, let me know.

Just watched this last night! Pretty hyped to see TheSource playmat!!!

[BlogBoy]

No comments for nearly two weeks? Anyways I’m going to talk about my results this year with Smallpox decks.

Coming into 2021, I’ll still be playing Smallpox decks in Magic.

Highlights of this year:

Modern
1st Place Weekly Event - 8 Rack
ManaTraders Phase Two Qualification 8-2 - Orzhov Smallpox

Legacy
2 1st Place Weekly Event - Pox
ManaTraders Phase Two Qualification 14-6 - Pox
MTGO Leagues 5 4-1s (no 5-0 unfortunately)

Also recently due to poor performance in 3 Leagues in a row I have dropped under a 50+% win rate I had in MTGO Leagues. People have even discussed how MTGO Leagues are like day one of a MagicFest so I’m not too surprised how I lost so many in my last 3 events.

[l33twash0r]

No comments for nearly two weeks? Anyways I’m going to talk about my results this year with Smallpox decks.

Coming into 2021, I’ll still be playing Smallpox decks in Magic.

Highlights of this year:

Modern
1st Place Weekly Event - 8 Rack
ManaTraders Phase Two Qualification 8-2 - Orzhov Smallpox

Legacy
2 1st Place Weekly Event - Pox
ManaTraders Phase Two Qualification 14-6 - Pox
MTGO Leagues 5 4-1s (no 5-0 unfortunately)

Also recently due to poor performance in 3 Leagues in a row I have dropped under a 50+% win rate I had in MTGO Leagues. People have even discussed how MTGO Leagues are like day one of a MagicFest so I’m not too surprised how I lost so many in my last 3 events.

Glad someone is doing still the pox work during the Uro era :)

[Mr. Safety]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GmejbCdAqc

Here is a recent video of me playing old fuddy Pox to middling success. I still think the deck has answers to just about everything, but with exactly zero was to sequence those answers, you're left at the mercy of the deck to RNG you up the cards in order... something I've always struggled with, if that could even be considered a thing. Either way; I'll continue to defiantly yell at clouds, so if anybody is interested in this stuff, let me know.

Treasure Map and Sunset Pyramid are so close to being exactly what Pox needs. I was so frustrated with Pox's inability to filter cards that I went down the rabbit hole of Lantern of Insight. It's certainly fun, but it's challenging to balance out the synergies and still look somewhat like a Pox deck.

[Fox]

Mazemind Tome is what you're looking for @Mr.Safety. Has lifegain as well, while putting itself back into the Karn wish zone.

[Mr. Safety]

That is indeed a better option, I actually kinda like it. It's even at 2 mana so if I wanted to play Chalice of the Void I could.

[PirateKing]

Went 3-1 again tonight with the same old list.

Played against TinFins that transformed into Doomsday and lost in 3.
Beat Eldrazi in 3 with Nether Spirit being the bestest blocker evar with Liliana coming in to mop up afterwards and The Abyss making an appearance one game to keep him for keeping any creatures
Beam Turbo Depths in 2 with quick pressure on lands and lots of running sacrifice effects to match up well with his discard. Maze of Ith in the opening hand game 1 was welcome.
Game 4 was a crazy close game against Death's Shadow, we hit each other a bunch in game 3, with Blast Zone coming down to wipe his board and a Winter Orb slowing up both down. Eventually he is at 1 and a clutch Cling to Dust on upkeep to dodge Force of Negation keeps me alive. He's stuck with unplayable Force of Wills and a Thoughtseize putting me to 2 shows the coast is clear for a lethal Smallpox. Lots of different lines could have gone either way, so hardly a decisive victory, but definitely finished the night in Pox style.

Still happy with the list.

[Mr. Safety]

No greater thrill than winning with Smallpox when they are at 1 life. Nicely done! Gone are the days of Pox blowing out other decks, there is just too much resilience in the format and truthfully there is just too much value in all of the modern cards. I think if you want to be successful with Pox it will have to be in leveraging small advantages over the game. Were you playing Ensnaring Bridge? I'm convinced that card is fairly crucial to locking up games with Pox in the current metagame.

[PirateKing]

I am not running it currently.
I would need to adjust out of combat win conditions to avoid self inflicted losses (besides the usual ones). I currently have only a single Cursed Scroll, and no way to leverage Ensnaring Bridge profitably like a Karn build could.
That being said I would not call this local meta a healthy representation of decks, if there even still is a thing. There are a few mainstays, but lots of new "meme" decks like Curse Stompy (4~5 of 30 players) compared to just UR Delver or SnOko Goodstuff. It's basically all the youtube MODO players with their weekly donation decks, except instead of playing against the format, they're all playing each other. When the Zendikar Rising lands came out, I'd say a quarter of the room was on Oops All Spells.

If there are any observations that can be extrapolated out, it is that for a lot of weeks now, Veil of Summer is not a common sight. Out of the sideboard for some decks, but usually those that leverage them akin to Pact of Negation to win counterwars on game ending stacks like Eureka Tell or Rainbow TES. But even then it's 2-3 copies since they're not looking for them in opening hands. So the most used answer to Hymn remains Daze and Force of Will, sometimes Spell Peirce. That's just been good news for Pox.

[OmniStrata]

A modified Andrea Mengucci deck design. Sideboard was tweaked a bit, but with the current bannings, it's more effective now. Eliminate lost some of it's fire in an environment without Oko. Uro is still a problem and you'll want more GY hate. I'll swap one Cling to Dust for Surgical Extraction depending on more tests.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3506677#online

It feels weird with so many lands but the cantrip power is undeniable.

[kombatkiwi]

That is the style of list I think is good (well, good for a Pox deck)
With the Oko ban it's more reasonable again to play stuff like Cursed Scroll, Ensnaring Bridge, Crucible of Worlds etc e.g. instead of the second Last Hope or trim 1-2 discard/removal

[Reivaj]

Hi guys.

Do you think that 0 copies of Hymn to Tourach is correct?

Thanks.

[OmniStrata]

Hi guys.

Do you think that 0 copies of Hymn to Tourach is correct?

Thanks.

I think it is if you're going after the lands. 4 Sinkholes is pain. Going after the key cards is better since we have up to four Locthwains for card advantage.

Edit: on 2nd thought, no hymns is a problem against storm combo. Figure out your meta and make your decision.

[PirateKing]

Figure out your meta and make your decision.

But Sho that's hard :<

[OmniStrata]

But Sho that's hard :<

If MtG was easy, we'd be tier 1!! I've found 6 1-cmc discard to be too much so I've modified the deck in the previous link to run Eliminate which kills that which unkicked Bloodchief's Thirst can't kill. 12+ removal is hot. Sideboard is still WIP. Any suggestions?

[Reivaj]

Don't you think that 3x Liliana's Triumph feels unnecesary with possibly 15 removals on main?
Did you consider Pithing needle or Ratchet Bomb against opposing artifacts and/or PW?

[PirateKing]

I've currently dropped Eliminate, but kept the Murderous Rider.
I'm apprehensive in Bloodchief's Thirst, 4 mana is asking a lot when the Planeswalker I'm killing the most is Karn now, almost always powered out by less than 4 mana sources on their side. The adventure mechanic also slots just a little too perfect into what we're trying to accomplish to walk away from. It plays nice with Nether Spirit as well, and when it doesn't through countermagic or some other effects, Cling to Dust has been a great addition as well.
I think some number or Pithing Needle in the side are becoming borderline mandatory. I have a Gyruda/Urza/Karn Bomberman player in my group and I'd like to have a better plan than hope we don't get paired to avoid getting wiped out of the game.

[OmniStrata]

Sideboard updated taking into account everything ^_^ thanks people!! Eliminate still works as the stopgap between Thirst to Murderous Rider. There's still plenty of 3 cmc creatures or less that we'd like dead. Bob, Goyf & Eidolon of the great revel come to mind. Paying 2 instead of 3 is fine. Using Thirst's kicker is good as an emergency.

[Hardcore]

Don't you think that 3x Liliana's Triumph feels unnecesary with possibly 15 removals on main?
Did you consider Pithing needle or Ratchet Bomb against opposing artifacts and/or PW?

Liliana's triumph is useful against marit lage bcs it's an instant, and is also quite safe from chalice.

[OmniStrata]

Liliana's triumph is useful against marit lage bcs it's an instant, and is also quite safe from chalice.

It also 2 for 1s with Liliana vs. Icefang shenanigans. The condition should be easy to meet with 5+ Lilianas in the deck.

[PirateKing]

A big 0-4 oof last night.

Two decks were value piles with a resolved Sylvan Library on their side doing heavy lifting. Jace the Mind Sculptor and Dack Fayden both also made appearances and caused headaches. My contributions just made the games take longer, but without a way to cleanly clear the board completely, there was little hope of success.

One match against Retro Ninja, which was more manageable but still tricky. Retrofitter Foundry again without a clean answer provided fodder creatures to keep the board unempty. Ninjas themselves were not anything special, but spamming 0/2 creatures to magically transform into 4/4 beaters did not allow enough time to stabilize.

Last match was Eldrazi, which again, doable, but in this instance Matter Reshaper did not allow for a clean answer, turning into Mimic that got beefed by TKS the next turn and proceeded to shut the door on what was otherwise a manageable game. Later in the night he skipped right past Chalice on 1 and went for 2 & 3, his own Caverns allowing him to keep playing while I was stuck playing catchup all the way to the grave.

If this meta persists, I might need to reconsider Feed the Swarm or Mire in Misery as options somewhere in the 75. At any point Chains of Mephistopheles or Underworld Dreams showing up would have also been a significant help, so I can't say I didn't have options, so maybe having different options but also never drawing them ends up the same. Will recollect myself and see where the room settles.

[kombatkiwi]

A big 0-4 oof last night.

Two decks were value piles with a resolved Sylvan Library on their side doing heavy lifting. Jace the Mind Sculptor and Dack Fayden both also made appearances and caused headaches. My contributions just made the games take longer, but without a way to cleanly clear the board completely, there was little hope of success.

One match against Retro Ninja, which was more manageable but still tricky. Retrofitter Foundry again without a clean answer provided fodder creatures to keep the board unempty. Ninjas themselves were not anything special, but spamming 0/2 creatures to magically transform into 4/4 beaters did not allow enough time to stabilize.

Last match was Eldrazi, which again, doable, but in this instance Matter Reshaper did not allow for a clean answer, turning into Mimic that got beefed by TKS the next turn and proceeded to shut the door on what was otherwise a manageable game. Later in the night he skipped right past Chalice on 1 and went for 2 & 3, his own Caverns allowing him to keep playing while I was stuck playing catchup all the way to the grave.

If this meta persists, I might need to reconsider Feed the Swarm or Mire in Misery as options somewhere in the 75. At any point Chains of Mephistopheles or Underworld Dreams showing up would have also been a significant help, so I can't say I didn't have options, so maybe having different options but also never drawing them ends up the same. Will recollect myself and see where the room settles.

Yes I think Feed the Swarm / Mire in Misery (probably feed) is a good choice to anticipate a meta with a lot of Sylvan Library
Chains of Mephistopheles could also be reasonable
I would avoid underworld dreams because uro just makes that card look totally embarrassing

[PirateKing]

Yes I think Feed the Swarm / Mire in Misery (probably feed) is a good choice to anticipate a meta with a lot of Sylvan Library
Chains of Mephistopheles could also be reasonable
I would avoid underworld dreams because uro just makes that card look totally embarrassing

Underworld Dreams isn't to combat Uro, just provides a clock that gets faster the more they try and dig out from. Off an early Dark Ritual it lets you play the Pox game while also winning the game, a rarity I'm sad to say.
Many games they stabilize at ~5 life and recover with higher CMC stuff like Jace while we're trying to keep what little momentum we have.

[OmniStrata]

Yes I think Feed the Swarm / Mire in Misery (probably feed) is a good choice to anticipate a meta with a lot of Sylvan Library
Chains of Mephistopheles could also be reasonable
I would avoid underworld dreams because uro just makes that card look totally embarrassing

Feed / Mire are good cards using 2 cmc but I've found the instant speed of Pharika's Libation more clutch for those Marit Lage situations.
In the case of tempo, Feed/Mire are good for the early game enchantment, but the instant speed for 1 more cmc was quite handy. You also narrow the opponent's choice of permanent.

[kombatkiwi]

Many games they stabilize at ~5 life and recover with higher CMC stuff like Jace while we're trying to keep what little momentum we have.

Yes and I'm trying to tell you that when one of the most popular examples of the "high cmc stuff" being played in the current meta is a creature that repeatedly comes back from the graveyard and gains 3 life when it etb and gains 3 life when it attacks then Underworld Dreams is probably not the card that you want to be playing

[Reivaj]

Hi guys. Have yo seen this version of Snow Pox (https://youtu.be/mpoDgK81sJw)?
He plays Narfi, betrayer king as a pseudo Nether spirit and some snow cards I dont understand like Frostwalk bastion and Faceless haven (I prefer old Mishra's factory)

[Reeplcheep]

Imo the snow pox deck’s curve is too high. Pox wants to play a small game so playing big finishers often won’t work. But that’s just my opinion.

I have been testing land tax pox to mild success. Land tax is a card advantage engine that can actually come down before blue decks pws and is great in small games that pox creates. Myth realized ends the game quickly without getting in the way of pox.

Currently testing:


1 Plains
9 Swamps
2 Urborg
4 Silent Clearing
4 Flagstones
2 Scrubland

4 Land Tax
4 Mox Diamond
4 Raven’s Crime
4 Smallpox
3 Liliana OTV

4 Myth Realized
2 Nether Spirit
3 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Hymn to Tourach


Compared to trying to assemble a bunch of zombies, I think the get the opponent to no cards, smack them with a monk plan has been working.

I used to run more clings/thoughtseize, but extra hymns and kayas were added since the deck is so soft to chalice.

[Hardcore]

Imo the snow pox deck’s curve is too high. Pox wants to play a small game so playing big finishers often won’t work. But that’s just my opinion.

I have been testing land tax pox to mild success. Land tax is a card advantage engine that can actually come down before blue decks pws and is great in small games that pox creates. Myth realized ends the game quickly without getting in the way of pox.

Currently testing:


1 Plains
9 Swamps
2 Urborg
4 Silent Clearing
4 Flagstones
2 Scrubland

4 Land Tax
4 Mox Diamond
4 Raven’s Crime
4 Smallpox
3 Liliana OTV

4 Myth Realized
2 Nether Spirit
3 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Hymn to Tourach


Compared to trying to assemble a bunch of zombies, I think the get the opponent to no cards, smack them with a monk plan has been working.

I used to run more clings/thoughtseize, but extra hymns and kayas were added since the deck is so soft to chalice.

Interesting idea! That is just a 56 card list however. With that discard plan I would add four Shrieking affliction.

[Reeplcheep]

I missed 4 wasteland I think. I think the list has a fine amount of wincons.

Perhaps I was playing poorly, but I disliked shrieking affliction when I tried it. both it and land tax were countered by the opponent just not doing anything. Myth realized and Kaya are better at forcing action (and thus turning on land tax).
Edit: perhaps waste not could be good however...

In addition to paying a healthy respect for uro, cling/Kaya can solve the “what if you draw 2 nether spirit” problem.

[Mr. Safety]

Don't forget about Cursed Scroll and Ensnaring Bridge for flavors of Pox; with Oko gone they are playable cards again.

[Reeplcheep]

The land tax/ravens crime engine has been pretty good in my testing. However myth realized was having some issues crossing the finish line.

I was thinking about trying Planar Birth. It has the floor of being a rampant growth with mox diamond, and with the land tax engine and a few field of the dead it can easily make 20+ Power.

[Mr. Safety]

Do you realistically think you will have 7 or more lands with different names to trigger Field? I'm skeptical, and while it's cool, Planar Birth seems like it's going a little too deep. Your value with Land Tax and Raven's Crime seems to be pretty hefty already. I think if you want to make Field work you need to add some more utility lands like Mishra's Factory, Karakas, and Maze of Ith to the maindeck.

I think a card like Lingering Souls would be pretty good, simply because it synergizes more with self discard. Yes it's a little more mana intensive than Myth Realized, but you have the acceleration and the engine to feed that with Diamond/Land Tax. I haven't seen the deck in action, but I have been disappointed in Myth Realized in the past.

Wouldn't Monastery Mentor be nutso in this list? Just retracing Raven's Crime, even with an opponent's hand empty, sets you up with a pretty fast clock. The triggers can even ignore Smallpox for the most part because you get a token to sacrifice when you cast it.

[kombatkiwi]

Sedgemoor Witch an interesting SB option for this deck as a relatively cheap / efficient threat that dodges your own smallpox

[Captain Hammer]

Don't forget about Cursed Scroll and Ensnaring Bridge for flavors of Pox; with Oko gone they are playable cards again.

Spending 3 mana every turn just to deal 2 damage seems incredibly inefficient. I would personally swap it with Sedgmoor Witch if I want a grindy threat or Rotting Regisaur as a fast cheap finisher once youre already hellbent. But then again, the recent 5-0 list below is playing cursed scroll...

Planeswalker (7)
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Liliana, Waker of the Dead

Creature (2)
2 Nether Spirit

Sorcery (16)
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox
2 Thoughtseize

Instant (6)
4 Cling to Dust
2 Liliana's Triumph

Artifact (2)
2 Cursed Scroll

Enchantment (1)
1 Bitterblossom

Land (26)
4 Castle Locthwain
4 Mishra's Factory
10 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
3 Bitterblossom
2 Ashiok, Dream Render
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Duress
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
3 Plague Engineer

[kombatkiwi]

List looks pretty solid, not trying too much fancy stuff
- Kind of surprised the 2BB Liliana is good enough but I guess the +1 is a pretty solid wincon and it helps you get the bonus from Triumph more consistently
- Personally I would only play 1 Nether spirit but it probably doesn't matter too much and you have so many cling to make sure you don't double up on it
- Cling is a really good card for the deck but I'm kind of surprised to see all 4, I guess the opportunity cost is pretty low because it's so easy to cycle
- idk if Bitterblossom is the right effect for that slot, a lot of pw to protect in this build so it has a bit more utility for blocking but I think I prefer to see ensnaring bridge there
- Zero ritual kind of interesting but totally reasonable

[Mr. Safety]

List looks pretty solid, not trying too much fancy stuff
- Kind of surprised the 2BB Liliana is good enough but I guess the +1 is a pretty solid wincon and it helps you get the bonus from Triumph more consistently
- Personally I would only play 1 Nether spirit but it probably doesn't matter too much and you have so many cling to make sure you don't double up on it
- Cling is a really good card for the deck but I'm kind of surprised to see all 4, I guess the opportunity cost is pretty low because it's so easy to cycle
- idk if Bitterblossom is the right effect for that slot, a lot of pw to protect in this build so it has a bit more utility for blocking but I think I prefer to see ensnaring bridge there
- Zero ritual kind of interesting but totally reasonable

Bitterblossom is basically 'free', life-wise, with 4x Cling to Dust. Bitterblossom doesn't conflict with Ensnaring Bridge at all, you just attack before playing your last card; you could conceivably play both, not one or the other. I've done it a few times, I'm a huge fan of both Bitterblossom and Bridge in Pox.

[OmniStrata]

Bitter Bridge combo ^_^. I like the list and am definitely bringing in Sedgemoor Witch as she feels like the direct upgrade to Ophiomancer.

[Reeplcheep]

Has anyone tried Witherbloom Command in loam pox? Ravens crime and smallpox means that a random land is always worth a full card, so it should usually be a real 2 for 1.

It also has a lot of flexibility for a deck that has no card selection.

[Mr. Safety]

I think the tension comes when you have strictly better ways of abusing Loam. I could see Command replacing Loam in a BG pox deck (the amount of times you actually Loam in LoamPox is a lot lower than in say Lands or AggroLoam.) I've always liked having Sylvan Library and Abrupt Decay in Loam Pox, but the ideal win condition in Loam Pox is Dark Depths. Once you commit to Dark Depths its much more reasonable to lean into that combo rather than play lackluster cards like Smallpox. The overlap is considerable, but all of the changes are less powerful than just playing Mox Diamond/Dark Confidant/SlowDepths. Slow Depths has a ton of grind to it, similar to LoamPox, but has an overall higher card quality. This is just my opinion, but Pox has become a niche deck in the highest degree; you either play it because it specifically attacks a defined metagame well or you play it because you love Pox and you don't mind having a low win percentage.

If we want to be honest with ourselves, your Curse Stompy deck is much better equipped to deal with the metagame in general. You can tweak that deck in a lot of different ways that can adapt to metagame changes. Pox really can't adapt as well, it will always come down to hoping they don't topdeck into a 30-turn upset.

[Reeplcheep]

Loam pox definitely has a pull to just become bad slow depths.

However there are 2 differences that could make it viable. Pox can run entomb rather than crop rotation. This is better at assembling crime plus loam rather than depths plus stage. Fighting on card quantity rather than card quality could be enough of a difference to make the deck viable. Smallpox and lily are effective to ways of converting random lands into real cards. Additionally depths and lands coloured mana is atrocious, whereas the pox engine can run more real lands for resiliency.

I do think curses is a much better take on monoB, but the core of that deck is pretty set. Deck building and major tuning is mostly done imo. It’s mostly just better piloting needed for it to have a few real tournament results. And I am not the best at that, so I’m trying to move to other bad archetypes.

[Mr. Safety]

So the real question is: does Witherbloom Command make LoamPox a better deck? That would have to be explored, but I don't think a modal disruption spell is what that deck really needed (just my opinion.) Opening up a slow, grindy deck to graveyard hate (which you absolutely know is coming g2-3 for Loam alone) doesn't really give you an edge. Faster graveyard decks like Reanimator and Dredge can deal with the grave hate and then *quickly* overtake a game. LoamPox could deal with the grave hate and then still grind slowly, and like monoblack Pox, lose after topdecks come into play. The fundamental problem with Pox as an archetype is that it disrupts like a champ and then gives too much time to recoup. Delver disrupts, and then just kills you. That's why Dark Depths is so important to a LoamPox deck: you need a way to just close the game quickly. By including Depths you have to water down disruption to make room, so you can't reliably keep opponents in topdeck mode. The tradeoff is a fast win...but what happens when instead of cutting a little disruption to include a win condition you focus hard into protecting that win condition and use *just enough* disruption to quickly do that. Now you're closer to Delver and who cares what someone topdecks on turn 10 if they are dead turn 3. Sorry if this is redundant, but I've played both LoamPox extensively and TurboDepths extensively, and it isn't even close to deciding which is the better deck. Is LoamPox more fun? Yeah, sometimes its awesome, but it's not a good deck.

I totally understand the pull of 'bad' archetypes, lol. I'm trying to put together a workable Eggs list currently, if that says anything. The creative process is a big part of my enjoyment of the game as well.

[OmniStrata]

4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Liliana, Waker of the Dead
2 Nether Spirit
4 Dark Ritual
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
2 Sedgemoor Witch
4 Cling to Dust
3 Castle Locthwain
4 Mishra's Factory
9 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

Side

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Sedgemoor Witch
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Plague Engineer
1 Nether Void
1 Kaervek, the Spiteful
2 Murderous Rider

The witch is serious business!

[Reeplcheep]

If you are playing witch anyways, would chain of smog plus witches cottage be a good way to get a combo finisher?

[PirateKing]

If you are playing witch anyways, would chain of smog plus witches cottage be a good way to get a combo finisher?

I didn't find Chain of Smog helpful at all. Pox already runs too many narrow cards that risk being dead against an unfavorable matchup that adding a borderline do-nothing card is just too much dead weight in the deck.
Just playing spells for value and breaking Smallpox symmetry is huge. If you want a win on the spot deck, Pox isn't it.

[OmniStrata]

Pirate is right. I've tested Dark Depths mod & transformational Helm of Leyline combos from the sideboard. Trying to combo in a Pox shell means you're spending turns not disrupting your foes. I've since abandoned the idea of Combo Pox. There's a Hogaak Variant of Pox that's fun but isn't as consistent as true Hogaak combo. Liliana Pox should focus more on controlling as that's the archetype it was built for.

[Mr. Safety]

I think the biggest tension with Pox + Depths is Smallpox. I would say that is the card that needs to go to incorporate Hexmage/Depths. Otherwise the deck works as a mono-black control deck with a combo finish. Liliana of the Veil is also a little suspect, but there are workarounds with her and Depths.

[OmniStrata]

I think the biggest tension with Pox + Depths is Smallpox. I would say that is the card that needs to go to incorporate Hexmage/Depths. Otherwise the deck works as a mono-black control deck with a combo finish. Liliana of the Veil is also a little suspect, but there are workarounds with her and Depths.

Might as well play original DD combo as it's faster and more consistent. By removing Smallpox, it's just mono-B control at that point. Breaking the symmetry was the best route instead of making a weaker helm line, Dark Depths or Hogaak variants splashing a Smallpox. Pogaax as it's nicknamed in the Discord is probably the most consistent variant of 'combo pox' I've played.

My conclusion: It slows Hogaak by about 2 turns to disrupt the crap out of you and it beats down with several 2/1 and 3/1 beaters if the original plan fails. Ensnaring Bridge I thought could stop it but Altar of Dementia doesn't care. :eek:

[Mr. Safety]

I think there is a place for DD in a pox-ish setup...but it's likely better to go the Reanimator Depths route if you want mono-black. You can endlessly tweak the main/side to suit your playstyle and metagame. I would argue that the Hogaak variant begs the same question as you already proposed: wouldn't it be better to just play a better deck? If I had all the necessary cards I might even build Reanimator Depths; I've played against it and it seems hella fun. Honestly, all I'm missing is 2 more Reanimates, a set of Entomb, and whatever number of Griselbrand/Grave Titans are needed to make it work. For a 'budget' deck it's incredibly powerful.

I understand about breaking the symmetry of Smallpox...but we really have to wonder if it's worth it. Building a deck around an uncommon seems pretty suspect, and that's essentially what Pox is now. Before the recent bans the most successful versions didn't play Smallpox anyways. I think that is certainly the route to take, unless you want to continue to force an outdated archetype. I mean, zoo called, they're looking to see if we're available for drinks later on tonight.

[Reeplcheep]

Building around uncommons is great if they are cheap. Chain of smog, Brain freeze, cabal ritual, bazaar of Baghdad, ancient tomb, animate dead all have decks built around them And that’s only a-c.

From comments below I have gone back to tuning land tax pox. I think it’s the best way to break small pox’s symmetry:
It’s much better on tempo than loam. It’s extremely cheap, and even better on the draw which is critical for a slow deck. White already has the other best way to break smallpox (flagstones). It gives a strong engine with crime that does what pox wants to do (get the opponent to 0 resources). It thins the deck considerably so you have better top decks than the average pox player.

Currently testing the below:


2 Plains
7 Swamps
2 Urborg
4 Silent Clearing
4 Flagstones
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra’s Factory

4 Land Tax
4 Mox Diamond
4 Raven’s Crime
4 Smallpox
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Waste Not

4 Myth Realized
1 Nether Spirit
2 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Hymn to Tourach


Minor but impactful changes: added more basics and shifted manabase a bit more B heavy to support pox/hymn.
Factories helped with lack of wincons.
Waste not provides an additional engine for to break parity on crime and small pox. Fracture is also great as a catch all sideboard option.

Mr Safety’s point above above about closing is quite good. This deck isn’t the best at closing but myth realized and Kaya are steps in the right direction compared to cursed scroll.

[OmniStrata]

I understand about breaking the symmetry of Smallpox...but we really have to wonder if it's worth it. Building a deck around an uncommon seems pretty suspect, and that's essentially what Pox is now. Before the recent bans the most successful versions didn't play Smallpox anyways. I think that is certainly the route to take, unless you want to continue to force an outdated archetype. I mean, zoo called, they're looking to see if we're available for drinks later on tonight.

I'll answer that call. Playing better decks is easy if you have the budget for them. I enjoy Pox not to become DtB but it's so disruptive and budget friendly. It's also a pet deck for quite a few people. After falling in love with the GroundBreaker precon, I researched LD with a passion. My friend pointed me to Pox and I'd found the calling. Never looked back. Pogaax is fun once in a while but Liliana Pox is my recreational Drug.

[Mr. Safety]

I can certainly understand that sentiment, it's a super fun deck. I just think if you're going to play traditional Pox, as a grindy deck, it's better to go deeper into the prison approach: Ensnaring Bridge, Ashiok, maybe even Sinkhole. I'm toying with a Sinkhole list that cuts Liliana of the Veil, which sounds absurd on the surface but Liliana hasn't done anything in Legacy lately. Sinkhole has been dead even longer, but it does a couple things: lowers the functional curve so hitting 3 lands isn't necessary unless you need to jam a Bridge, and it encourages you to play out your cards every turn to maximize Bridge. Locking out fetches with t1 Ashiok and then Sinkhole/Wastleand on other lands sounds like it might actually work.

Essentially, I think if you want a fast win-condition/combo then Smallpox has to be left out. If you want Smallpox in your deck you need to go deep into breaking the symmetry, and in my opinion play like a Prison deck with slower win conditions like Bitterblossom/Cursed Scroll.

[OmniStrata]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3506677#online

My current test. New discoveries. Black has a new Monastery Mentor in Sedgemoor Witch. She also lightning bolts anyone not using Abrupt Decay. There's been Discussion using Chain of Smog and her to go infinite but I don't like it. Menace is amazing evasion.

Torpor Orb is super underrated. Late game drawing is very good in this configuration. Definitely considering Ashiok, Dream Render in place of Surgical Extraction. Lots of awkward games. :frown:

[PirateKing]

Sho, is Liliana Waker of the Dead just because we can't run LotV #5 or do you have any special purpose otherwise?

Can't comment on your meta, but Ashiok is borderline essential for me. Last night in 4 rounds it killed fetches & Recruiter of the Guard, wiped out a Grixis KCommand/Cling to Dust pile & nuked both a Brainstorm in response to a Hymn and a Mystic Sanctuary topdeck. Hard to select an MVP when we're pushing every card to it's limit just to keep parity, but it especially kept in games that a single-minded Surgical would not have.

Interesting thought in Torpor Orb. Skyclave Apparition continues to be an issue for keeping a Liliana based lock going, this would definitively solve that.

[FTW]

Is there a way you can exploit the interaction of Cabal Therapy + Sedgemoor Witch? Somewhere in that 4 Thoughtseize + 2 Inquisition could be some number of Therapies.

Witch breaking the overall Pox symmetry seems great too.

[Fox]

Is there a way you can exploit the interaction of Cabal Therapy + Sedgemoor Witch?
Doesn't net any tokens, and you get into the problem scenario of legacy's Mentor decks - you burn the spells that make the dudes before you can make the dude. For Pox specifically, if you turbo this out with Rit, you have a 3/2 in a deck whose wincon isn't really damage [Last Hope does the same thing, just safer]. This is the same issue Kroxa runs into, where you get a currency you can't spend.

On the Torpor Orb stuff above, this is pretty sketchy when you can't advance your gameplans with it. Doing stuff like this means you kinda need to by playing Torpor SB and Karn maindeck...but then you will get into this mindset where you need 2/15 SB cards to be Torpor to increase effective copies (1x Torpor to g2/3 maindeck, each Karn represents another copy). Add the inevitable losses to Thassa, and this behavior of playing a 13 card SB will be hard to dislodge.

[Reeplcheep]

Grief is the force of will this deck always wanted, since it is unmask that actually is a decent top deck/hard cast.

It will be better in gaak or some ephermate deck, but if this doesn’t make pox much better the deck is unsalvageable.

[Mr. Safety]

Agree 100%. This is creature-based disruption in a deck that cares more about tempo than card disadvantage (Dark Ritual in a non-combo deck.) I think it's an auto-4 in any interation of Pox, and I think it pushes Liliana, the Last Hope as a better option due to the Disentomb ability.

[kombatkiwi]

Im prepared to eat my words here but I don't think the card is good in pox at all

The deck really does not want to 2-for-1 itself to make this kind of trade so the unmask half of the card seems really poor

Of course if you topdeck it when you have 4 mana then it's fine as a kind of really chunky ravenous rats but putting it in the deck makes your nether spirits awkward and more importantly there's so many other better 4drops/expensive-cards available (like the 2BB Liliana or Ensnaring Bridge or whatever)

also if you play Ensnaring Bridge (which I think is good) then a 3/2 menace isn't even relevant anyway

It's 2 effects that really aren't good (for this archetype) and even combining them onto 1 modal card doesn't mean that it makes the cut for the deck imo

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, I think you're right, after reconsidering. I just got excited about the synergy with Lily TLH 2nd ability. I was also thinking that a non-combo deck that plays dark Ritual probably doesn't care as much about card disadvantage, however, the play with Ritual needs to be worth 2 cards. You make good points.

[kombatkiwi]

Yeah, I think you're right, after reconsidering. I just got excited about the synergy with Lily TLH 2nd ability. I was also thinking that a non-combo deck that plays dark Ritual probably doesn't care as much about card disadvantage, however, the play with Ritual needs to be worth 2 cards. You make good points.

I do think it could be a really good card for the mono B reanimator / depths deck
- Unmask is more realistically a card that you want to play
- You have reanimate spells in the deck to reanimate the 3/2 as a plan B if you can't find a Entomb etc
- Compared to normal reanimator you also have more of a plan b of playing swamps and hardcasting your stuff

[PirateKing]

Im prepared to eat my words here but I don't think the card is good in pox at all

I've been holding back as everybody has gone bonkers over this card, wondering what I'm missing. People keep talking the the Evoke cost is nothing or otherwise inconsequential, "look at all the black cards I wasn't going to cast anyway!". Maybe for other decks, but not Pox. First turn discard is already a resource we have plenty of, and this is only advantageous if you were planning on doing something else on turn 1. If it's putting Griselbrand into play or resolving Doomsday, sure, sounds great. But the Pox turn 1 play is Thoughtseize, so we're just clean up a card over this. I don't get it.
Sure you could devote 3 cards and DOUBLE Thoughtseize them! Wowee says the deck running Dark Ritual and Hymn to Tourach and oh also Thoughtseize. So again, doing something already available, but worse.

Decks that ran Unmask did so for reasons, a simple body attached to the never-played half of the card doesn't change the metrics much.

I'm excited to be proven wrong.

[Reeplcheep]

I've been holding back as everybody has gone bonkers over this card, wondering what I'm missing. People keep talking the the Evoke cost is nothing or otherwise inconsequential, "look at all the black cards I wasn't going to cast anyway!". Maybe for other decks, but not Pox. First turn discard is already a resource we have plenty of, and this is only advantageous if you were planning on doing something else on turn 1. If it's putting Griselbrand into play or resolving Doomsday, sure, sounds great. But the Pox turn 1 play is Thoughtseize, so we're just clean up a card over this. I don't get it.
Sure you could devote 3 cards and DOUBLE Thoughtseize them! Wowee says the deck running Dark Ritual and Hymn to Tourach and oh also Thoughtseize. So again, doing something already available, but worse.

Decks that ran Unmask did so for reasons, a simple body attached to the never-played half of the card doesn't change the metrics much.

I'm excited to be proven wrong.

If we shouldn’t play this card because we can play thoughtseize instead, why does control play fon then when they could hold up spell Pierce and be up a card?

Obviously the tempo aspects are not the same, but it is much better to hardcast than the blue forces.

[kombatkiwi]

If we shouldn’t play this card because we can play thoughtseize instead, why does control play fon then when they could hold up spell Pierce and be up a card?

Obviously the tempo aspects are not the same, but it is much better to hardcast than the blue forces.

The dynamics of counterspells vs discard are too different I think, you can't just characterize them both as "0 mana one-for-two to answer my opponent's card"

- "The tempo aspects are not the same" is a pretty big factor
- With counterspells you have the ability to sit back and hold counters in your hand to answer opp topdecks at any point. You can tap out for your cantrips and hold up Force as needed. With this deck you can tap out for your thoughtseize, then unmask to thoughtseize again? Not as effective of a strategy
- Force works if your opponent tries to fuck you up turn 1 on the play, thoughtseize/pierce/unmask all don't
- Non-tempo Force decks also have card advantage sources to offset the 1-for-2, Pox kind of doesn't
- Late topdeck Force means you have the mana to hardcast it, kind of similar situation with this card but because it's not a reactive card your opponent is potentially already hellbent so you don't even get full value out of it

- The other thing is that with so many symmetrical effects in this deck (LOTV, Smallpox etc) you need to be pretty careful about 1-for-2ing yourself in general and it also means you have cards in the deck that sac off your own 3/2

[PirateKing]

Obviously the tempo aspects are not the same

I guess we have common ground at least. Not sure in what gamestate you think a reactive instant is going to line up to a proactive sorcery to produce any meaningful comparison. I wonder how many decks pitch to Force of Vigor on turn one for none targets? Storm 1, dominance asserted, applause.

Who is hardcasting Unmask? Honestly asking, because that is the tempo we're discussing. What's the play look like when hardcasting Unmask is a win?

[Reeplcheep]

The common situation in pox where you are both in top deck mode, and instead of top decking a dark ritual or a thoughtseize now you topdeck a 3/2 menace.

[Reeplcheep]

I guess we have common ground at least. Not sure in what gamestate you think a reactive instant is going to line up to a proactive sorcery to produce any meaningful comparison. I wonder how many decks pitch to Force of Vigor on turn one for none targets? Storm 1, dominance asserted, applause.

Requiring the opponent to have at least 1 important non land in their hand on t1 is a much lower ask than to have a relevant artifact on t1 (force of Vigor) or even relevant non-creature spells (fon).

Just like fon lets you tap out for library, running a spell like this would let you run more card advantage engines since you can disrupt and develop on the same turn. You can run a lot more bitterblossom or phyrexian arena style effects when it doesn’t mean you give the opponent a free turn to do their thing.


Who is hardcasting Unmask? Honestly asking, because that is the tempo we're discussing. What's the play look like when hardcasting Unmask is a win?

Hard casting unmask is terrible. But hard casting a TKS is much better than topdecking a dark ritual or thoughtseize.

[Mr. Safety]

I guess we have common ground at least. Not sure in what gamestate you think a reactive instant is going to line up to a proactive sorcery to produce any meaningful comparison. I wonder how many decks pitch to Force of Vigor on turn one for none targets? Storm 1, dominance asserted, applause.

Who is hardcasting Unmask? Honestly asking, because that is the tempo we're discussing. What's the play look like when hardcasting Unmask is a win?

To be fair, the only deck that uses Unmask is BR Reanimator, and it is rarely ever hard cast. The reason it's acceptable is because Grisel-necropotence-brand draws you so many extra cards it isn't even a cost. There really isn't a comparison because we have had 'free' creatures (Vine Dryad, Allosaurus Rider), we have had 'free' disruption (Unmask, Force of Will), but we've never had both in one card.

The value of a creature being added to a spell is the place to start, so things like Shriekmaw and Mulldrifter are the right category. Those cards are great early and amazing once you hard-cast them, to the point that they were format-defining when they were in Standard. We got Terror and Divination, both at sorcery speed, for the early game and then significant creatures late game. In that particular metagame the technology was Momentary Blink and Makeshift Mannequin, both of which were good enough even at 4 mana to be viable. In legacy we have Reanimate, which is 100 times better, but Pox isn't really in the market for reanimation strategies (unless it's truly free, like Nether Spirit, or incredibly low cost, like Bloodghast.)

So the question becomes: does Pox want a modal card, like Shriekmaw, that is passable early and good mid-late game? Is the effect worth 2 cards to play it? Dark Ritual is worth it because it plays incredibly powerful cards at 3 mana like Lilianas or a combination of Hymn to Tourach/Smallpox/Thoughtseize. I was originally on the track of 'Pox wants this', but I think I've changed my mind.

[FTW]

I think this card is better in decks that want Unmask anyway (4 copies in Reanimator as a backup threat) or Black Stompy (as a TKS that can do a T1 Thoughtseize impersonation without clashing with Chalice, even clearing the way for a T1 Chalice).

It could have use in Pox though. Pox has terrible topdecks (Ritual, Thoughtseize, etc). This topdecks as a win condition and potential 3-for-1 (discard a card + must be blocked by 2 creatures). Worth it as a 1-of or 2-of?

The Evoke mode seems riskier. Does T1 double Thoughtseize improve the combo matchups?
What about T1 Unmask your Force into Liliana +1? Maybe that's just a terrible play. You're down to 1 card in hand while opponent has 5, but it's less likely any of those cards can answer Liliana and you'll soon break the symmetry on the +1 mode.

[Reeplcheep]

I was thinking you play it with cheap but tempo negative engine cards like bitterblossom or waste not. Lotv or phyrexian arena are other options.

[PirateKing]

running a spell like this would let you run more card advantage engines since you can disrupt and develop on the same turn. You can run a lot more bitterblossom or phyrexian arena style effects when it doesn’t mean you give the opponent a free turn to do their thing.

If you could expand on this I think it would be helpful. I'm understanding that we're casting this, trading a card in hand for +1 mana, to cast a CMC 2 or 3? So we're already past turn 1, the titular "free turn to do their thing". So we did nothing then to disrupt them then? Or did we cast Grief on turn one to save tapping a Swamp so that later, we can cast a different spell on a different turn? Or are we considering Dark Ritual and just going all in on card disadvantage?

I'm trying my best to debate your points, but we're not a combo deck and we're not a Stompy deck. Hardcasting Thought-Knot Seer is great, but zero decks think tapping 4 lands to cast it on turn 4 is ideal. Decks that play TKS play it because to them it costs 2. Grief does not cost 2.

[Reeplcheep]

The idea is that it lets you disrupt on the same turn that you play your engine. It could “fair” monoR reanimating, going all in on it to clear the way for dark ritual phyrexian arena.
Another pairing I really like is waste not. It’s the cheap engine pox needs, but normally it is too slow to get going. This lets you immediately disrupt on the same turn and refunds the pitched card into a random card, a zombie or a dark ritual.

[PirateKing]

Okay, fair points.

So turn one we're optioned into committing 5 cards (Swamp, Dark Ritual, Phyrexian Arena, Grief & pitch) to their 1 card and now over the next 4 turns we've reach parity again, card advantage from there on out. Math checks out. To boot, we can get a 3/2 sometimes-unblockable later in the game if that's what we draw. That is a thing we can do now.

If you like Waste Not then this does get it online earlier. Small point of order: you're never going to get BB from Waste Not by casting Grief, but the rest stands. I do not like Waste Not and find it to be a trap, but that is a different discussion.

[Reeplcheep]

Okay, fair points.

So turn one we're optioned into committing 5 cards (Swamp, Dark Ritual, Phyrexian Arena, Grief & pitch) to their 1 card and now over the next 4 turns we've reach parity again, card advantage from there on out. Math checks out. To boot, we can get a 3/2 sometimes-unblockable later in the game if that's what we draw. That is a thing we can do now.


By that logic dark ritual Liliana is committing 4 cards to the opponents 1, and will only start to recoup CA once they play a creature or you r empty handed and they are not (ie several turns down the line)

[PirateKing]

By that logic dark ritual Liliana is committing 4 cards to the opponents 1, and will only start to recoup CA once they play a creature or you r empty handed and they are not (ie several turns down the line)

Hey we're agreeing more and more :D

I also think windmill slamming down Liliana of the Veil turn one is a bad play in the majority of situations. 4 for 1 is a bad trade, I agree. You could discard Nether Spirit and help the math out, but then it's upgraded into just a super risky play. You would need foreknowledge of your opponent and some pretty sick followup like Hymn or Smallpox, and even then I'd think i was a ballsy move. Which will make it memorable when it works out the few times, but filed away as "Pox is just a bad deck" every time it doesn't.

[FTW]

Arguably Grief makes Dark Ritual Liliana a better play because it helps it resolve and you're down to 1 card in hand on turn 1. You'll probably be empty-handed by turn 2 and Liliana will already be recouping card advantage from then on out.

This is a more all-in gambit that Pox could play (dump your hand on turn 1 to force through an engine) instead of slowly grinding out the advantage over many plays. Deck construction would have to change to support that strategy, with other engines like Phyrexian Arena.

Is it any good? Seems high variance, depending on specific opening hands. What do you do the rest of the time?

[Reeplcheep]

My point was more that counting playing a land for turn as 0 for 1ing yourself, like it was a lotus petal, is absurd.

But I could get on the “pox is unredeemably bad” train.

[PirateKing]

5 for 1 is misleading, I apologize.

I was counting in an opening hand/mulligan mindset of, "If 5 of 7 cards are these cards, then I can end the play with 2 cards in hand etc..."
You get a land in play, Phyriexian Arena and they lose a card. All tangible benefits, so you're spot on there.
FTW gets it, maybe there's a version of Pox that goes all in, dumps your hand right away and then reaps value of LotV +1 every turn.

That's just not the Pox I build and play, so I can politely decline further assessments of 2 for 1 on purpose.

Pox is not an easy deck to play :laugh:
It's punishing and that makes it easy to misinterpret pilot error with the deck's strength as a whole.
So I can get where you're coming from.

[ronco]

Strategy question for pox players (I don't know the answer - looking to hear ideas):

If you go T1 Thoughtsieze against UR delver and see Delver, cantrip, force, daze, and lands, is there an "always go for..." answer? Even though pox has lots of outs to creatures I've been plucking that out when I see it because all the digging and counters means I'll have to take a ton of hits by the time I can cleanly deal with it. But I wasn't sure if it might be better to pull the cantrip out and try to drain their hand instead.

I don't play enough to have the experience doing both so thought I'd ask here.

[kombatkiwi]

Strategy question for pox players (I don't know the answer - looking to hear ideas):

If you go T1 Thoughtsieze against UR delver and see Delver, cantrip, force, daze, and lands, is there an "always go for..." answer? Even though pox has lots of outs to creatures I've been plucking that out when I see it because all the digging and counters means I'll have to take a ton of hits by the time I can cleanly deal with it. But I wasn't sure if it might be better to pull the cantrip out and try to drain their hand instead.

I don't play enough to have the experience doing both so thought I'd ask here.

To some extent of course it depends on what the rest of your hand is. If you have other removal already then letting them keep the delver is (more) ok. Taking daze is fine to make sure your opponent can't easily stop your heavy hitting spells (Hymn/Smallpox/Liliana etc).
Taking FoW is generally not the greatest, because the whole idea of the strategy is that all your cards are fairly interchangeable and you just want to 2-for-1 the opp until they die, but for example if you had the plan of ritual liliana on turn 2 then force would be the correct thing to take there

I don't think I rate taking the cantrip super highly from that hand (compared to the Daze) but if you have a hand that can play around daze easily and removal for the delver then yea that's the pick probably

[Mr. Safety]

The one situation I might consider taking the cantrip (if they only have 1) is if they only have 1 land and I have a Wasteland available. Even then I think the take is still delver. Yes you have redundant removal, but that just becomes insurance when all they have is reactive stuff and no pressure. Taking cantrips and interaction can slow their tempo but getting ahead of their threats can create inevitability.

[OmniStrata]

Strategy question for pox players (I don't know the answer - looking to hear ideas):

If you go T1 Thoughtsieze against UR delver and see Delver, cantrip, force, daze, and lands, is there an "always go for..." answer? Even though pox has lots of outs to creatures I've been plucking that out when I see it because all the digging and counters means I'll have to take a ton of hits by the time I can cleanly deal with it. But I wasn't sure if it might be better to pull the cantrip out and try to drain their hand instead.

I don't play enough to have the experience doing both so thought I'd ask here.

The baseline strategy for Delver is to stick a threat and protect the shit out of it to victory. I always nail their threat. Even if there's 2. Just remember every baseline strategy in MtG existence and you need not fear the outcome of 1000 battles. lol.

[ronco]

Appreciate the food for thought. Historically I haven't seen it much in my meta but now that play is starting again thought it might be wise to brush up on it. Just in case.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

[Reeplcheep]

The cook with the really long name is a recursive 1 mana 3/3 which draws a card if you can enable it. She also turns dead discard into lifegain or removal. DGA is performing much better than pox, because sfm both is card advantage, a clock, and stabilization. Most of pox’s threats don’t do that well; perhaps this can be our SFM.


Mox diamond, ravens crime, small pox and LOTV all enablers that we kinda want to play anyways.

It might be decent in my poxfait brew. Draft:


4 Mox Diamond
4 Land Tax
4 Raven’s Crime
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Asmod...........
2 The Underworld Cookbook
4 Myth Realized
1 Cursed Totem
4 Smallpox
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper

4 Silent Clearing
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Plains
8 Swamps
4 Wasteland
2 Urza’s Saga

[OmniStrata]

Sho, is Liliana Waker of the Dead just because we can't run LotV #5 or do you have any special purpose otherwise?


Interesting thought in Torpor Orb. Skyclave Apparition continues to be an issue for keeping a Liliana based lock going, this would definitively solve that.

I run her for more consistent Liliana's Triumph. And having 3 Liliana's in play seems to force concessions.

Torpor has saved my arse from many a StoneForge Mystic, Hullbreachers, and Apparitions. Goblins love the Orb too. Snapcaster Mages, Thassa's Oracles... The list is ginormous for Legacy's EtB nonsense.

[OmniStrata]

Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar
So stupid... The name I meant...
But, It's a madness 3/3 for 1 mana. Not sure how good the cookbook is in Pox.

I suppose, Chef Pox can be a thing.

Unfortunately, my Sedgemoor witch testing has come up as a failure.
Pros: the Chain of Smog Combo. Power. Menace. Immune to own Pox effects.
Cons: oddly, Chain of Smog sux in Pox, jams Nether Spirit without Last Hope in play, if only casting spells at normal pace, Pox's spell casting is too slow once hellbent state is reached, clashes with Cursed Scroll since you never want to stop casting spells can't be discarded to Smallpox/Liliana etc. Bitterblossom or even Dreadhorde Invasion coupled with Cling to Dust spamming is superior it would seem. I cry for her, now the witch is an ex-waifu for Pox.

Current build:

4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Liliana, Waker of the Dead
1 Nether Spirit
1 Nether Void
4 Dark Ritual
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize
4 Smallpox
3 Sinkhole
1 Cursed Scroll
2 Liliana's Triumph
3 Cling to Dust
1 Blast Zone
2 Castle Locthwain
4 Mishra's Factory
9 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

SB:

1 Torpor Orb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Plague Engineer
2 Damping Sphere
1 Murderous Rider
1 Hex Parasite
1 Dystopia
1 Void Mirror
1 Dauthi Voidwalker

Why so many singles? With 5 reusable cantrips in the deck, running 4-ofs felt less necessary. What's jarring is now, we need mana open between turns to either Scroll Damage or draw cards or heal ourselves by eating their dead creatures.

[Hardcore]

Strategy question for pox players (I don't know the answer - looking to hear ideas):

If you go T1 Thoughtsieze against UR delver and see Delver, cantrip, force, daze, and lands, is there an "always go for..." answer? Even though pox has lots of outs to creatures I've been plucking that out when I see it because all the digging and counters means I'll have to take a ton of hits by the time I can cleanly deal with it. But I wasn't sure if it might be better to pull the cantrip out and try to drain their hand instead.

I don't play enough to have the experience doing both so thought I'd ask here.

That depends on what type cantrip it is. If it's a brainstorm then the opponent can play a land and then put the other two lands back in his deck in exchange for better cards. (Also brainstorm help trigger Delver. Remember it is really no threat if it remain a 1/1.)

I recommend a sudden edict if you fight many Delver decks.

[Pittplayer]

That depends on what type cantrip it is. If it's a brainstorm then the opponent can play a land and then put the other two lands back in his deck in exchange for better cards. (Also brainstorm help trigger Delver. Remember it is really no threat if it remain a 1/1.)

I recommend a sudden impact if you fight many Delver decks.

Sudden Impact? That card is unplayable.

[Reeplcheep]

I recommend a sudden impact if you fight many Delver decks.

Do you mean Sudden Edict?

[kombatkiwi]

This deck is another possible option for Urza's Saga possibly, replacing Mishra's Factory
- Soulguide Lantern / Relic
- Cursed Scroll
- The Rack
- Meekstone

Goes well with Crucible too

[Hardcore]

Do you mean Sudden Edict?

Right. Thanks

[Mr. Safety]

This deck is another possible option for Urza's Saga possibly, replacing Mishra's Factory
- Soulguide Lantern / Relic
- Cursed Scroll
- The Rack
- Meekstone

Goes well with Crucible too

I think it's ok there as a tutor, but not taking advantage of the construct token generation makes it a lot more fair than what other decks are doing with it. It's safe to say that if we are tapping out our lands to make constructs we aren't playing Hymn/Liliana/Smallpox. Not to mention it is really bad with Smallpox, sacrificing our dude we made to get full tempo value out of it. I think in order to really make it worthwhile you need to be able to use all 3 modes of the card (mana, dudes, tutor.) I could be way off on this, but even Mishra's Factory, ubiquitous as it is, has always caused tension with casting spells in Pox. I love getting The Rack, Meekstone, grave hate, and even Pithing Needle with a tutor like Urza's Saga but there is real tension unless you get into late game usage. I think there is potential for a re-build around Urza's Saga, but I have no idea what that would look like.

[OmniStrata]

Urza's Saga feels unreliable as a card for Pox. Decks that run it obviously pack artifact lands to add more oomph to the token and 0 MV mana rocks It also kills itself unless you want to make a cute combo with Hex Parasite. The tension mentioned by Safety is real. Mana tension is why I really miss Chimeric Idol as a win condition. But for some reason, it's been decided that swinging for 2 damage using 2 mana (factory) is better than swinging for 3 damage for 0 mana. Cursed Scroll EoT is also better hence why the Idol sings for nobody anymore. :cry:

Ultimately, to run Cursed Scroll & Mishra's Factory, Idol goes outdated. I've also noticed recent lists abandoned the Phyrexian Totem. Finding reliable win cons for Pox is a big part of the adventure. Nether Spirit, C Scroll & M's factory have withstood the test of time. Liliana seems to have been considered for abandonment much like the original big Pox.

[OmniStrata]

Current list that's kicking serious arses. Original build by Zolgia whose skeleton resembles Reid Duke's old build but replace the Cursed Scrolls with Lilianas.

4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Liliana, Waker of the Dead
1 Nether Void
4 Dark Ritual
2 Innocent Blood
2 Liliana's Triumph
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Baleful Mastery
9 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Castle Locthwain
1 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

Sideboard

1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Baleful Mastery
2 Null Rod
2 Ashiok, Dream Render
2 Dauthi Voidwalker
2 Extirpate
2 Engineered Plague
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

In paper magic, the deck is a fortune so I only play on MTGO. The sideboard originally ran Leylines but I went for something with more resistance to Force of Vigor. Having a double Leyline start cooked by Vigor is very discouraging but using Voidwalker and Ashiok gave far more versatility.

[Grizzlenasty]

Would you run multiple Tabbies in the board, if you had access? And is The Abyss something we don't want anymore?
oh and I just saw, no Nether Spirit and the list dropped Cling to dust... I'm curious

[OmniStrata]

Would you run multiple Tabbies in the board, if you had access? And is The Abyss something we don't want anymore?
oh and I just saw, no Nether Spirit and the list dropped Cling to dust... I'm curious

No to the Tabernacles as multiples. Legend Rule won't help. It's used to stop decks that creature flood without payment. Aether Vial, GSZ, Madness, Affinity. Pop the lands and Tabernacle will help. No Clings seems odd but from what I can tell, the maker of Archetype B built the deck to have the least weakness, Cling can be attacked via GY hate but not Locthwain, they have to Wasteland or needle it. Nether Spirit is a less resilient threat than a trio of walkers. I've brought in Hive of the Eye Tyrant for an 8th threat in place of a Castle. It improves Slow GY resource decks matchups. Eats Uro, Hogaak, Vengevine & Bloodghasts with every attack.

[BlogBoy]

*copied from my reddit post*

Hey everyone, last week, I took Pox to a 5-0 recently in a MTGO League and this isn't 5-0ing with a "bad deck", this is performing with a now improved deck. To back up my claim there is others performing with Pox currently and most notably the Japanese Pox player, Irei Kazuo who has performed well in at least 3 of his Legacy events within the last couple months. Why is this? I think its because he is on the best variant that uses Karn, the Great Creator that is now further strengthened by the likes of Urza's Saga. The reason why its often called a bad deck is that not everyone playing Pox wants to adopt new strategies as they arise since they want to play the old cards that use to perform well and that is fine as they want to have fun with the deck and enjoy the nostalgia, but for the sake of performance I will play the most competitive Pox variant that is available. Pox has 3 card advantage engines that thrive in the deck, Karn the Great Creator, Urza's, Saga, and Castle Locthwain. This gives Pox a great balance now between card draw and card selection while also providing efficient finishers to close out games. This is where Pox was weak in recent past is that the deck was often built too focused on one for one disruption when decks could outpace it in card advantage so it had to utilize newer card advantage engines to keep up or it would simply fall behind.

I should also note Pox has some of the most efficient creature removal spells in the game and discard to cause the opponent to stumble and actual quality win conditions to help follow up on that. To compliment on Pox's creature removal package are powerful hate cards in the sideboard that often see play now like Dystopia which in the right meta can be super powerful as it answers cards Pox has trouble interacting with like Sylvan Library and Klothys. It is able to create an early lead with Dark Ritual and powering out the Planeswalkers early and the card advantage engines within the deck compensate for the card disadvantage here. Pox is also somewhat favored vs the most popular deck in Legacy as of now that is UR Delver that also helps the Pox deck.

I should also clear things up, Pox is a budget deck in terms of Legacy costing even less than some of the Modern decks out there as the Legends cards are nowhere as potent as they once were. They're normally just jammed in lists because they're fun and not because they're optimal.

I don't know if my post is formatted properly or even if my grammar is good, but if you have any questions regarding the Pox deck, I may be able to provide answers for you.

My Tournament

Bant Control 2-0
Infect 2-1
Turbo Depths 2-0
2-1 Reanimator
2-0 Miracles

Yes there was a degree of luck, but everyone needs at least some luck to 5-0 I think.

My deck 5-0: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/4209592#paper
Irei Kazuo 5-0: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/4193414#paper

I hope this convinces more of you to play Karn Pox as it is the best variant.

[Airwave]

Interesting, thanks!

[OmniStrata]

Congratulations on your win!

[Albarkhane]

Interesting deck.

Could you explain your changes compared to what Irei is playing ? Are they just meta calls or there are other reasons ?

[FTW]

Urza's Saga looks good here. Between that and Hive, there's a significant boost to the "manland" strategy giving Pox more ways to end the game.

Saga -> Foundry is a good wincon

What about Saga -> The Rack? That could represent significant direct damage outside the combat step, especially later in the game. Cursed Scroll is great too for different reasons.

[OmniStrata]

Urza's Saga looks good here. Between that and Hive, there's a significant boost to the "manland" strategy giving Pox more ways to end the game.

Saga -> Foundry is a good wincon

What about Saga -> The Rack? That could represent significant direct damage outside the combat step, especially later in the game. Cursed Scroll is great too for different reasons.

The Rack in this scenario is exceptional as opposing Karns can't stop it and if you're a fan of Null Rod, your own Rod won't hinder it. Sadly, it does shut off Cursed Scroll which can't be used vs. opposing Karns.

[Reivaj]

Hi.
I also think that Urza's Saga and Castle Locthwain are great addittions to the deck (I play 3xeach) but I still don't get the point of Karn, the great creator. I mean, it costs :4:, needs a dedicated sideboard and the other "combo" piece costs :6: (Mycosynth Lattice) which I see a bit high for a deck that plays Wasteland, Smallpox and Urza's saga. Can you explain that choice, please?
Thanks.

[OmniStrata]

Hi.
I also think that Urza's Saga and Castle Locthwain are great addittions to the deck (I play 3xeach) but I still don't get the point of Karn, the great creator. I mean, it costs :4:, needs a dedicated sideboard and the other "combo" piece costs :6: (Mycosynth Lattice) which I see a bit high for a deck that plays Wasteland, Smallpox and Urza's saga. Can you explain that choice, please?
Thanks.

More often than not, I see the wish for Liquid Metal Coating and then infinite LD per turn. Or they coat a nuisance and pox it away.

[Reivaj]

More often than not, I see the wish for Liquid Metal Coating and then infinite LD per turn. Or they coat a nuisance and pox it away.
Hi.
Ok, so basically we need a turn 4 Karn, the great creator on a threatless board and spend :2: on fifth turn to get a "free" Sinkhole every turn we can protect the combo. Do you think this "combo" is a reliable finisher against current meta (UR Delver, D&T and BANT)?
Thanks in advance.

[Grizzlenasty]

Hi.
Ok, so basically we need a turn 4 Karn, the great creator on a threatless board and spend :2: on fifth turn to get a "free" Sinkhole every turn we can protect the combo.

No, we don't need to power him out turn 4. We can do what pox does for a bazillion turns, topdeck him and then do something impactful with a variety of wish targets. Lattice or Coating are just two examples. Lattice can in fact close out games rather abruptly, this is something Pox ususally struggles with. So that is nice. Ritualing him out turn 2, to turn off stormdecks' artifacts is also nice. Followed by wished up Trinisphere. I think there are loads of applications for him.
But you don't really seem to like him, so why bother running? I'm not running him in my Pox deck either, but mainly because I already run him successfully in 2 other decks.. Painter and Dragon Stompy. I don't want all my decks to look the same and feel like he's doing even better in those, then in Pox anyways.
Bear in mind, I've just recently build the deck and I'm constantly losing with Pox.. so what do I know..

Edit: Friend of mine ran a Karn centered stompyesque Pox deck with local success. Ancient Tombs, Chrome Moxes, Chalices, Trinispheres - the usual suspects. Powering out Trinisphere followed by Nethervoid + land destruction and discard. Now, as I'm typing, I think the deck was closer to MBC than Pox. I don't think he ran Smallpox.. But in this build I was really impressed with Karn's performance.

[Reivaj]

No, we don't need to power him out turn 4. We can do what pox does for a bazillion turns, topdeck him and then do something impactful with a variety of wish targets. Lattice or Coating are just two examples. Lattice can in fact close out games rather abruptly, this is something Pox ususally struggles with. So that is nice. Ritualing him out turn 2, to turn off stormdecks' artifacts is also nice. Followed by wished up Trinisphere. I think there are loads of applications for him.
But you don't really seem to like him, so why bother running? I'm not running him in my Pox deck either, but mainly because I already run him successfully in 2 other decks.. Painter and Dragon Stompy. I don't want all my decks to look the same and feel like he's doing even better in those, then in Pox anyways.
Bear in mind, I've just recently build the deck and I'm constantly losing with Pox.. so what do I know..

Edit: Friend of mine ran a Karn centered stompyesque Pox deck with local success. Ancient Tombs, Chrome Moxes, Chalices, Trinispheres - the usual suspects. Powering out Trinisphere followed by Nethervoid + land destruction and discard. Now, as I'm typing, I think the deck was closer to MBC than Pox. I don't think he ran Smallpox.. But in this build I was really impressed with Karn's performance.

Sorry Girizzlenasty, don't get me wrong. I don't have an opinion on Karn, the great creator because I haven't tested it yet so I want to know other players experiences with him. As you pointed out, there are a lot of scenarios where he can be great so I think I must give it a try, in fact, the most recent lists on top8's use it. Otoh I've also lost a lot of games with Pox for the lack of proper finishers and I've tested multiples (Chimeric Idol, Cursed Scroll, Waste not, The rack, Mishra's Factory,etc) all of them being inferior to Karn so who knows...
I'm currently testing Urza's Saga to get The rack which paired with Liliana of the veil can end games.
Thanks.

[Reeplcheep]

Not everyone agrees that karn makes sense in pox. Karn is very much a “big game” card and smallpox is the ultimate “small game” card. You need to pick 1 game plan.

Smallpox, Liliana, wasteland are all about grinding the opponent out. You are focused on card quantity not card quality. imo this don’t make any sense with karn.

If you are playing chalice, ancient tomb, chrome mox than all you care about is slowing down the opponent and then jamming some expensive thing. This is a card quality fight and karn is great. But then your deck should look more like my curses than normal pox.

I think karn pox is fundementally flawed from a theory POV. Like playing lava spike in Jeskai control. Or hymn in RB burn. Or tabernacle in storm.

Urza’s saga/rack/bitterblossom all make much more sense as finishers for a “small game” deck like pox. They are cheap, self contained, hard to remove, and are best when the opponent has little resources. Karn by contrast is expensive, easy to interact with, needs a lot of support for extra mana and board control, and is at his best when both people have lots of resources. (With infinite mana you can get bridge and then lattice to beat basically any board)

[Grizzlenasty]

I don't have an opinion on Karn, the great creator

I have one. I don't like him, because I've seen him doing better in other decks.

Basically +1 what reeplcheep said. But I also see why people want to run him and their success and my lack thereof might prove me wrong.

[BlogBoy]

Sorry been inactive, I am currently working on deck tech for Pox with another site that goes over the Pox archtype and recent 5-0s and Challenge Top 32 that Irei Kazuo did with Karn Pox. Since Modern Horizons 2 where I added Urza Saga here are my tournament results for every tournament I put money/prize.

Wins 29 Losses 25

MTGO Leagues
2-3
5-0
3-2
3-2
3-2
4-1
3-2
2-3
2-3

Local Events
2-4

Preliminary
0-3

Most of the wins were due to Urza Saga so I consider it a must play 2-3 of at least like how Mishra's Factory is a must. I am very time and money invested in the Karn Pox deck, I prefer it over other Mono Black variants because it maximizes on card advantage, card selection, and finishing games efficiently by utilizing both Urza Saga and Karn. Why I like it? Its really good at shifting gears. Urza Saga enables the deck to get aggresive combat finishes where Karn Pox use to really struggle at and when I am getting defensive Karn the Great Creator is a wonderful candidate for that as it is effective winning outside of combat.

How exactly is Karn functioning in Pox? If you played this variation you would know as the card can win out of nowhere. Karn's power level as a walker is comparable to Jace the Mind Sculptor if that alerts anyone and despite Urza Saga taxing mana the Karn Pox deck is doing better than ever before because you're utilizing artifact synergy with Pox. There has been multiple instances where I was able to protect Karn by turning an in play artifact into a blocker and then follow up with a Bridge or something else. I think a lot of people overlook that, but the older Karn Pox builds cannot really do that because Oko/Uro made most artifacts really bad. Urza's Saga makes them really good. The game 1 one-sided Null rod really comes in handy with Vial decks, artifact based combo decks, etc. in the meta. Do not totally dismiss this variant again someone topped a challenge with it so it certainly has potential. Think of Urza Saga as Plan A and Karn as Plan B for finishing games. The days of trying to grind it out with slow clock are kinda over when you have to prepare for Uro and such so that's a Plan C for me. Pox is in a decent spot in the meta and if I stop misplaying I know my winrate will shoot up. You have to be on Urza's Saga to see the full strengths of the deck though followed by the performing variants which are right now Karn Pox and Loam Pox both utilizing Urza Saga well. These will continue to do well in my opinion for some time.

[Reeplcheep]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2021-08-28#bwangeroo_-

Loam pox has been doing decently well recently. Is that the way forward for the deck? Witherbloom command and saga seem to make this variety much stronger than in the past.

[BlogBoy]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2021-08-28#bwangeroo_-

Loam pox has been doing decently well recently. Is that the way forward for the deck? Witherbloom command and saga seem to make this variety much stronger than in the past.

Loam Pox is much stronger than what it was in recent past. Unlike Mono Black it is able to recover better after self taxing itself thanks to the loam engine. I think more will fall on it due to the few results it got recently which is more than the rare occasional result that shows up. Recycling Urza's Saga is nothing to over look and a strength of the deck. Though Mono Black is really cheap in comparison and Ritualing out a Liliana/Ashiok on turn one or Karn turn two is nothing to overlook either. Legends cards in Pox get less and less competitive as the days go on so if you have money for those I recommend shelling out into color splashes first.

I think the Loam Pox deck could peform more it is a lot pricier in comparison.

[BlogBoy]

I know this will make a lot of you Poxers upset, but I think the reason why Legends cards aren't performing well in competitive Magic is just due to how powerful Legacy has become. If Legends were good, Adachi Ryosuke would be able to put in results, but I don't think a lot of you people even know who he is.

Nether Voids feel out of place when Karn is a lock piece, win condition, card advantage engine, and card selection engine in one. Then there is also Waker of the Dead to work with like a tech. Before this Nether Void had no competition in the 4 mana slot really so it was easy to slot in.

Pox has adopted draw engines on its own so Chains of Mephistopheles nonbo can be weird at times.

Tabernacle has been harder to slot in since the mana base is so crowded now, Castle Locthwains and Urza's Saga have become must plays so Pox has less room for land tech cards.

Karn Pox basically became the new Legends Pox deck since the 4 mana slot is also occupied by a lock piece that does more than just locking games.

I think Pox can do better, but we have to play new good cards as they come out. A lot of you seem to be behind so I recommend checking other places where you can consistently retrieve new data. There is a Loam Pox deck floating around that 5-0'd twice recently ReeplCheap shared in MTGO Leagues and also took down a 7 player weekly. It might outperform any variant in Mono Black for all I know because combining Loam engine and Urza just seems outright busted.

[BlogBoy]

You Pox players aren't going to like this, but Karn Pox and Loam seem to be doing the best in terms of variants, but also Hogaak Pox got in the 80s range of in a 350 Legacy Event Legacy Pit event. Looks like if we keep trying to make old cards work we likely won't do well and you have to adopt new strategies or fall behind. I've been doing decent at my weeklies with Karn Pox and kept up to some degree in MTGO Leagues with it too. Its not the Pox you all grew up on, but its far better than you Pox players think it is and I think the Pox results are skewed because most of you are on dated decks and aren't willing to take the more winning lists available on the table

[OmniStrata]

You Pox players aren't going to like this, but Karn Pox and Loam seem to be doing the best in terms of variants, but also Hogaak Pox got in the 80s range of in a 350 Legacy Event Legacy Pit event. Looks like if we keep trying to make old cards work we likely won't do well and you have to adopt new strategies or fall behind. I've been doing decent at my weeklies with Karn Pox and kept up to some degree in MTGO Leagues with it too. Its not the Pox you all grew up on, but its far better than you Pox players think it is and I think the Pox results are skewed because most of you are on dated decks and aren't willing to take the more winning lists available on the table

Prison Pox seems the wrong approach... Combo perhaps?

Maybe, we drop the deck altogether cause WotC doesn't like prisons? Yet they print Echo of Eons & Oko & Hull Breacher... a Stax variant maybe the only way in this scenario. The power creep is real. Pox was originally designed to be budget friendly barring the Legends cards on the reserved list.

[BlogBoy]

Prison Pox seems the wrong approach... Combo perhaps?

Maybe, we drop the deck altogether cause WotC doesn't like prisons? Yet they print Echo of Eons & Oko & Hull Breacher... a Stax variant maybe the only way in this scenario. The power creep is real. Pox was originally designed to be budget friendly barring the Legends cards on the reserved list.

I wouldn't say its the wrong approach, but also wouldn't say it is the only right approach. I think the newer Prison Pox variants with Karn and Ashiok accomplish the goal pretty decently. Its been functionally better than Legends Pox is in current Legacy. Karn hoses artifacts that Pox has trouble interacting with game one while finding tools you need and thats a step up and now doesn't even have to rely on Karn as now the Plan A is Urza's Saga, but Karn and Ashiok are good Plan B to win. I think if you want Mono Black Combo you play DeTH it did top 32 Legacy Pit event recently.

[OmniStrata]

Actually, Orzhov Pox does exist following the loam splash mentioned. Fracture & Vindicate are scary to be receiving. Problem is the budget, going dual lands on top of everything else is not an option for some. I'll point to someone we know who could speak better on the topic...

https://strategy.channelfireball.com/all-strategy/home/modern-orzhov-pox-with-modern-horizons-2/

MTGO makes things a little easier to acquire. Time to give it a whirl.

For the Legacy upgrade, Hymns, Sinks, but no dark rituals. Crucible sounds like an idea too.

[BlogBoy]

Actually, Orzhov Pox does exist following the loam splash mentioned. Fracture & Vindicate are scary to be receiving. Problem is the budget, going dual lands on top of everything else is not an option for some. I'll point to someone we know who could speak better on the topic...

https://strategy.channelfireball.com/all-strategy/home/modern-orzhov-pox-with-modern-horizons-2/

MTGO makes things a little easier to acquire. Time to give it a whirl.

For the Legacy upgrade, Hymns, Sinks, but no dark rituals. Crucible sounds like an idea too.

The expensive part is not just limited dual lands, but also Mox Diamonds being favored over rituals as a mana accelerant. While it does work in Modern to some degree, I haven't seen anyone pull off BGW Pox off well, but give it a whirl if you are curious.

[OmniStrata]

The expensive part is not just limited dual lands, but also Mox Diamonds being favored over rituals as a mana accelerant. While it does work in Modern to some degree, I haven't seen anyone pull off BGW Pox off well, but give it a whirl if you are curious.

Yes. The loss of Dark Ritual is quite backbreaking and unfortunately, as you said, I can't afford the diamonds. How ironic that the Legends cards which cost mortgage payments irl are dirt online yet the Mox Diamonds, Urza;s Saga & Karn cost more in data than in paper. That and all my matches saw me wastelanded into submission. Lands, D&T & Delver are the most popular decks. Cutting off all my mana wasn't hard for them. Sticking to mono-B comes with a very relevant pro: heavy resistance to mana screw. Granted, we lose on color hate towards artifacts but that's what Powder Keg and Null Rod are for. Maybe a Feed the Swarm equivalent for artifacts could be printed? Time will tell.

Xenic Poltergeist anyone?

[Reeplcheep]

This slow-depths-ish list did extremely well in the mtg paper legacy invitational. (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/4414962#paper)

[PirateKing]

This slow-depths-ish list did extremely well in the mtg paper legacy invitational. (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/4414962#paper)

I would be interested to know how many games the 20/20 won for him. No way to find the A or the B, seems like it would be a really scary threat your opponent would be occupied with handling, meanwhile the rest of the deck is slowly chipping in. 14 discard spells counting Tourach himself, he's liable to be a big boy by end of game.

[Reeplcheep]

I would be interested to know how many games the 20/20 won for him. No way to find the A or the B, seems like it would be a really scary threat your opponent would be occupied with handling, meanwhile the rest of the deck is slowly chipping in. 14 discard spells counting Tourach himself, he's liable to be a big boy by end of game.

In the finals game I watched discard into 20/20 would have won the game if he was not super tired. I think it was 5 am in Dubai or wherever he was and so he didn’t cash in immediately. On the ops turn they played a known wasteland which lost him the game.

Discard is so bad at grinding right now I like the ability to immediately present a fast win-con. Lilianas and Bobs don’t beat uro or thought monitor as grindy topdecks anymore. But the grind doesn’t matter if you are killing them right now. Doomsday and Death Shadow are the best thoughtseize decks right now for that reason.

[OmniStrata]

In the finals game I watched discard into 20/20 would have won the game if he was not super tired. I think it was 5 am in Dubai or wherever he was and so he didn’t cash in immediately. On the ops turn they played a known wasteland which lost him the game.

Discard is so bad at grinding right now I like the ability to immediately present a fast win-con. Lilianas and Bobs don’t beat uro or thought monitor as grindy topdecks anymore. But the grind doesn’t matter if you are killing them right now. Doomsday and Death Shadow are the best thoughtseize decks right now for that reason.

Ultimately, I vehemently disagree with the DD approach. That begs the question, why not play Turbo Depths instead of an inferior version? Same reason I don't play Hogaak Pox. Pox archetypes flop for me when I stop pure disruption paths. Some would probably do better with the transformational sideboard of 4 Leyline of the Void and X helm of Obedience. I've tested those variants before but in gunning for setting up the combo, I leave my opponent alone to play their game instead of mine.

[Reeplcheep]

Ultimately, I vehemently disagree with the DD approach. That begs the question, why not play Turbo Depths instead of an inferior version? Same reason I don't play Hogaak Pox. Pox archetypes flop for me when I stop pure disruption paths. Some would probably do better with the transformational sideboard of 4 Leyline of the Void and X helm of Obedience. I've tested those variants before but in gunning for setting up the combo, I leave my opponent alone to play their game instead of mine.

I am not going to say I am a great pox player. But I found the pure control variants to feel terrible since they didn’t actually win the topdeck war that they are designed to get the game into. Nothing traditional Liliana pox has is a better topdeck than ragavan, murktide, uro or even a vial + a recruiter. At least with a combo that requires a specific answer you can thoughtseize their answer and then kill them before they find another one.

The only version that could out topdeck the blue piles was loam saga versions, since either saga or loam would put you massively ahead from parity.

[FTW]

This slow-depths-ish list did extremely well in the mtg paper legacy invitational. (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/4414962#paper)

From my understanding that isn't a Pox deck, that's monoblack aggro (Bob, Thoughtseize, Voidwalker, 0 Smallpox, 0 manlands/Saga) with Depths combo thrown in. It looks closer to what we were brewing in the Rogues thread. That sort of deck isn't trying to play grindy attrition even though it has a lot of overlap cards.

[Reeplcheep]

From my understanding that isn't a Pox deck, that's monoblack aggro (Bob, Thoughtseize, Voidwalker, 0 Smallpox, 0 manlands/Saga) with Depths combo thrown in. It looks closer to what we were brewing in the Rogues thread. That sort of deck isn't trying to play grindy attrition even though it has a lot of overlap cards.

Yah I believe it was self described as monoBlack dead guy ale, which is probably more appropriate.

[OmniStrata]

Wrong Deck for the wrong thread? Pox's biggest hindrance is attacking all but one resource: Graveyards. Testing an Ashiok+Liliana Brew that hides behind Ensnaring Bridge. It seems to do well in metas that are degenerate on tutors and GY recursion. Swapping in the Null Rod when Sinkhole is not enough post board is key.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/4337260#online

[FTW]

I've always been a fan of Chains in Pox...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vfDHKGLTeA


//Lands: 21
4 Urza's Saga
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ghost Quarter

//Artifacts: 12
4 Mox Diamond
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 The Rack
4 Anvil of Bogardan

//Enchantments: 4
4 Chains of Mephistopheles

//Planeswalkers: 4
4 Liliana of the Veil

//Spells: 14
4 Dark Ritual
1 Fatal Push
3 Smallpox
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Baleful Mastery

//Creatures: 1
1 Tourach, Dread Cantor

//Sideboard: 15
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sudden Edict
3 Plague Engineer
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Tourach, Dread Cantor
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Damping Sphere


This looks a little rough but maybe there is something playable here.

Retrofitter Foundry seems important in a deck lacking actual wincons (G1 scoops to Needle on Saga?). Foundry also insulates Constructs/Tourach from the Smallpox sacrifice.

Raven's Crime works well with the Loam Pox engine + Chains lock, especially if you rely on opponent being hellbent.

[PirateKing]

I watched this, Anvil seemed too cute. Chains would be good if he didn't face 4 non-blue decks. Not understanding the interaction and playing both with an empty hand was definitely the highlight.

[FTW]

Without the Anvil combo, Chains is textless vs too many decks. What if it used Dark Deal to make both players immediately Hellbent (then just played out of the GY via Loam replacement effect), or Waste Not to gain value from each iteration? Probably too cute.

Edit: Chains Stompy aka "I have too many Legends cards".dec


//Lands: 24
4 Urza's Saga
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Nurturing Peatland
3 Wasteland

//Artifacts: 14
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Pithing Needle
2 Anvil of Bogardan
2 Trinisphere

//Mortgage Payments: 6
4 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Nether Void
1 The Abyss

//Spells: 11
4 Life from the Loam
3 Smallpox
2 Dark Deal
2 Baleful Mastery

//Planeswalkers: 6
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Karn, the Great Creator

//Sideboard: 15
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Anvil of Bogardan
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Sudden Edict
2 Plague Engineer
3 Assassin's Trophy
1 Ghost Quarter
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


Since most of the business happens at 2 mana anyway, the idea is to slow down the game to let the lock come online. Opponent is highly punished for running Brainstorm. Karn lets you hide copies of the more conditional cards (Anvil, 3sphere) in the SB and is another wincon. Ancient Tomb is good with Saga, accelerates Karn and the artifacts, and boost the land count to support Mox Diamond, probably better than running Ritual here (except that Liliana is harder to cast). Dark Deal combos with Chains to make both players Hellbent and then mill more cards, which should cripple the opponent but play well with Loam.

This probably doesn't work in practice, but it sure seems like a fun reason to play Legends cards.

In paper, this is a good way to check if opponent knows the rules.
Trinisphere + Nether Void -> How much does that FoW cost again?
The Abyss + Saga/Foundry -> I have creatures, you don't
Chains + Anvil + Loam -> Look I can do things, you can't

[BlogBoy]

Without the Anvil combo, Chains is textless vs too many decks. What if it used Dark Deal to make both players immediately Hellbent (then just played out of the GY via Loam replacement effect), or Waste Not to gain value from each iteration? Probably too cute.

Edit: Chains Stompy aka "I have too many Legends cards".dec


//Lands: 24
4 Urza's Saga
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Nurturing Peatland
3 Wasteland

//Artifacts: 14
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Pithing Needle
2 Anvil of Bogardan
2 Trinisphere

//Mortgage Payments: 6
4 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Nether Void
1 The Abyss

//Spells: 11
4 Life from the Loam
3 Smallpox
2 Dark Deal
2 Baleful Mastery

//Planeswalkers: 6
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Karn, the Great Creator

//Sideboard: 15
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Anvil of Bogardan
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Sudden Edict
2 Plague Engineer
3 Assassin's Trophy
1 Ghost Quarter
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


Since most of the business happens at 2 mana anyway, the idea is to slow down the game to let the lock come online. Opponent is highly punished for running Brainstorm. Karn lets you hide copies of the more conditional cards (Anvil, 3sphere) in the SB and is another wincon. Ancient Tomb is good with Saga, accelerates Karn and the artifacts, and boost the land count to support Mox Diamond, probably better than running Ritual here (except that Liliana is harder to cast). Dark Deal combos with Chains to make both players Hellbent and then mill more cards, which should cripple the opponent but play well with Loam.

This probably doesn't work in practice, but it sure seems like a fun reason to play Legends cards.

In paper, this is a good way to check if opponent knows the rules.
Trinisphere + Nether Void -> How much does that FoW cost again?
The Abyss + Saga/Foundry -> I have creatures, you don't
Chains + Anvil + Loam -> Look I can do things, you can't

Glad to see more on Loam Pox thats one way to get results http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=33275&d=454025&f=LE

Also the reason why no is putting results with Mono Black Pox is the pure control variants is too underpowered. I think unless you're jamming Karns and Urza's Saga you should only Pox for the fun of it or omit Smallpox all together because the cards in Mono Black Pox that were there to break the symmetry of Smallpox are mostly no longer good in Legacy. Not even Liliana the Last Hope is that good anymore as she just dies before we get any real value out of her because we never utilize her -2. Wizards should give us a good delve threat for her.

[Reeplcheep]

A prominent poxer and ?owner? Of the legacy pit got pox irl recently. (https://twitter.com/_TravisParsley_/status/1476276556628733954)

Stay safe people and remember to get your CDC approved Tajuru Preserver

[OmniStrata]

Hopefully he pulls through and can Funeral Charm that damn preserver... There is no Tajuru Mandate. As a Pox player, I will never comply...:mad:

[OmniStrata]

Happy New Years fellow Pox Pilots!!:laugh:

[z0anthr0pe]

Hi all, I'm contemplating sleeving up this list:


All in Pox

1 Nether Spirit

1 Bloodchief's Thirst
2 Cling to Dust
4 Dark Ritual
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 The Rack
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana's Triumph
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox

4 Castle Locthwain
1 Mishra's Factory
17 Swamp

Now that Ragavan is gone, do you fancy my chances of at least going 3-2? The local meta includes Doomsday, Storm, Burn, D&T, Lands, Ragavanless Delver.

Sorry, couildn't figure out how to do the card name links. Help welcome.

[PirateKing]

Not sure why only 1 Factory. If you're worried about making BB, an equal number of Urborgs covers that.
Zero Wasteland is also strange, but if you're anticipating never seeing a Urza's Saga, then you might be fine.

[OmniStrata]

Hi all, I'm contemplating sleeving up this list:


All in Pox

1 Nether Spirit

1 Bloodchief's Thirst
2 Cling to Dust
4 Dark Ritual
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 The Rack
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana's Triumph
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox

4 Castle Locthwain
1 Mishra's Factory
17 Swamp

Now that Ragavan is gone, do you fancy my chances of at least going 3-2? The local meta includes Doomsday, Storm, Burn, D&T, Lands, Ragavanless Delver.

Sorry, couildn't figure out how to do the card name links. Help welcome.

I'd drop Inquisition of Kozilek for more Factories & Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. 8 1 MV discards only worsen your topdeck potential. 7 Hand Destruction spells are usually enough. Liliana's Triumph, Hymn to Tourach & Liliana of the veil have you covered. If you must feed your 8-rack, adding more lands and Raven's Crime would help. Ensnaring Bridge is the final piece of this puzzle. Consider Funeral Charm if you would cut removal spells in consideration for Ensnaring Bridge.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Sorry, couildn't figure out how to do the card name links. Help welcome.
Just remove the spaces:

[ c a r d s ]Zap[ / c a r d s ]
Zap

[Reeplcheep]

IMO, not playing Urza’s saga in your fair non-blue deck is just wrong. It’s the best printing for non-blue legacy decks in a long time. Not the best with small pox but it even synergizes with rack.

In almost every situation it is going to better than shrieking affliction and mishra’s factory, as long as you play a few urborgs alongside it.

[OmniStrata]

IMO, not playing Urza’s saga in your fair non-blue deck is just wrong. It’s the best printing for non-blue legacy decks in a long time. Not the best with small pox but it even synergizes with rack.

In almost every situation it is going to better than shrieking affliction and mishra’s factory, as long as you play a few urborgs alongside it.

I don't like Saga personally, but I can see the wisdom in this. I'd drop Factory and 2 Castles for 3 Sagas and 3 Swamps for 3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Saga will fetch your The Racks too while making chunkier tokens. Consider Chains of Mephistopheles or Uba Mask if budget is of concern. Permanent Hellbent is good.

[mujadaddy]

Oh boy, here I go again!

Looks like it's been 12 years since I was active here (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4300-Deck-Pox&p=361555&viewfull=1#post361555), no clue about meta, but I feel like buying a couple cards again.so I read the last 50+ pages of the thread to get reacquainted.

And the biggest 'wtf' from my seat is the lack of Pox in most of these versions. Pox is unfair. Pox & Hymn makes people disconnect. Thoughtseize and Smallpox don't. I'm not playing a monoB pox archetype because I want to swing in for 20 for sure. So, my preference is to have 3 Poxes, and the choices in the rest of the deck rely on knowing you're going to Pox at least 1/game.

That aside, I definitely see some good evolution of the cardbase available. I have just started toying with a list, but here are my wincon thoughts, and I'm thinking singletons:

Tombstalker - remember that 13 life? Yeah.
Court of Ambition I like the idea of topdecking this!
Phyrexian Totem
Liliana, Waker of the Dead

Three Racks, 4 Factories, and a Syphon Life. 4 Smalls, Rituals, Hymns. 3 Pox.

Leaves ~12 to tune, and I know Liliana Veil should be here too. Do people still play Duress & Innocent

[Fox]

Rotting Regisaur, Plague Reaver has replaced most combat wincons in linear decks like this. More success generally being seen by combining Dark Rit with Opposition Agent, Dauthi Voidwalker, and Ashiok, Dream Render. That Liliana would have a hard time proving it is more castable and higher perfoming than Karn wish Crucible. As far as GY as a resource goes, Cling to Dust >>> delve Goyf. (particularly b/c of how awful Pox is vs Uro)

[mujadaddy]

Rotting Regisaur, Plague Reaver has replaced most combat wincons in linear decks like this. More success generally being seen by combining Dark Rit with Opposition Agent, Dauthi Voidwalker, and Ashiok, Dream Render. That Liliana would have a hard time proving it is more castable and higher perfoming than Karn wish Crucible. As far as GY as a resource goes, Cling to Dust >>> delve Goyf. (particularly b/c of how awful Pox is vs Uro)

Thanks for the response! I saw Regisaur, and he's a big boi for sure, but Plague Reaver looks like it's set up to abuse Ensnaring Bridge maybe? I'm not quite ready to go all-in on that.

Saw the Opposition Agent interactions,but put her in my 'side' once I saw how much they cost lol. Ashiok seems like matchup specific too: I get prevent defense, but am building up my jank-core before I worry about tiering the meta. And no, Im not considering Big Lil for more than a "4-finisher" -- top decked out of gas draw like the monarchy jank: supports what youre already doing (and besides costing more, I like it in Pox more than 3-Lil)

Cling to Dust. Glad you brought it up, looks very strong, cheap easy draw. Not sure I even think it opposes in a [2 Cling, 1 Tombs] configuration. Do people run 4? IIRC I only saw 2-ofs in the last few lists that use it.

Interestingly, the top versions of Pox I can throw together seem to only be $50-60 on MTGO. 3-Lil at $65+ each makes paper more of a 'goal acquisition' haha. Like 4-waste Crucible, I'm just not there yet ;)

Speaking of Karn. Yuck! That's a totally different deck, built for the meta. I could see a BETTER Black Artifact deck using him, but "hose a set of artifact strategies" is a boring reason to use him. He doesn't cause damage or discard, he stops artifacts. I definitely defer to meta considerations, but I think that Karn isn't the way I like to see my deck play.

Anyhow, I like the way the 60 I made last night draws, so I'm ready to get some practice in! Thanks.

[mujadaddy]

Stuffed Bear is better than the turtle that saw play forever, and situationally better than Phyrexian Totem, ....which probably isn't played either anymore.

Mardu Shadowspear looks cute, actually. EDIT-- played a game; drew him on the mulligan but put him on the bottom bc I had better stuff.

EDIT: I'm playing with what I have here........ Cards got stolen way back, so I have nothing at all. The point I'm hitting right now is that $25 into MTGO, I need to drop real money to improve the little deck I have... and If I'm hitting real money, I might as well get real cards for a real deck.

So far, what I've found is kinda where it was when I stopped for a while 10 years ago: Pox has no business trying to be a top deck, but it strengthens the meta if it tries.

It's a fun-for-me deck that's cheap to build, and makes your opponents really mad (especially online lol). And if you get the god-draw? Cmon, that confirmation bias is why we keep playing this, right?

[BlogBoy]

Thanks for the response! I saw Regisaur, and he's a big boi for sure, but Plague Reaver looks like it's set up to abuse Ensnaring Bridge maybe? I'm not quite ready to go all-in on that.

Saw the Opposition Agent interactions,but put her in my 'side' once I saw how much they cost lol. Ashiok seems like matchup specific too: I get prevent defense, but am building up my jank-core before I worry about tiering the meta. And no, Im not considering Big Lil for more than a "4-finisher" -- top decked out of gas draw like the monarchy jank: supports what youre already doing (and besides costing more, I like it in Pox more than 3-Lil)

Cling to Dust. Glad you brought it up, looks very strong, cheap easy draw. Not sure I even think it opposes in a [2 Cling, 1 Tombs] configuration. Do people run 4? IIRC I only saw 2-ofs in the last few lists that use it.

Interestingly, the top versions of Pox I can throw together seem to only be $50-60 on MTGO. 3-Lil at $65+ each makes paper more of a 'goal acquisition' haha. Like 4-waste Crucible, I'm just not there yet ;)

Speaking of Karn. Yuck! That's a totally different deck, built for the meta. I could see a BETTER Black Artifact deck using him, but "hose a set of artifact strategies" is a boring reason to use him. He doesn't cause damage or discard, he stops artifacts. I definitely defer to meta considerations, but I think that Karn isn't the way I like to see my deck play.

Anyhow, I like the way the 60 I made last night draws, so I'm ready to get some practice in! Thanks.

A lot of the reason Pox utilizes Karn is the deck is so starved of valid win conditions it will utilize win conditions that aren't even synergistic with the deck. What Karn offers though is it help patches Mono Black's artifact weakness game 1, provides card selection, and provides card advantage. He is a card that gives Pox free wins sometimes. Is he a must play for Pox? No, but the most recent Pox results all use Karn because that's how weak Pox has become. Loam Pox for that reason is surpassing Mono Black Pox in almost every aspect and taking over most of the quality results as it actually maintains its original gameplan and it only improved with Urza's Saga by a landslide.

If you don't want to play Karn I reccomend maybe trying a Rack Pox deck (Urza's Saga helped to some degree, or the Hogaak Pox deck). If you want to just play Pox for fun then just build what you like. Pox has barely done anything competitive lately as whole in Mono Black. Mono Black in Legacy is best as a Curses deck.

[Fox]

It is also worth mentioning that Karn is the single best Chalice kill spell in U, B, and UB...and it isn't particularly close.

[mujadaddy]

If you don't want to play Karn I reccomend maybe trying a Rack Pox deck (Urza's Saga helped to some degree, or the Hogaak Pox deck). If you want to just play Pox for fun then just build what you like. Pox has barely done anything competitive lately as whole in Mono Black. Mono Black in Legacy is best as a Curses deck.
Yes, The Rack is the direction the build goes.

And I'll just say it again: Karn looks like a busted card, I just think you build a better deck than Pox around that :4: yknow? Tutoring for sideboard artifacts is fine, I guess. As you said, "non synergistic win con". And as you said "artifact weakness game 1". But modern sets have better artifact hate than I had 12 years ago.

I believe that if your meta doesn't include facing off against discard (yknow, the thing that Black does in the color pie?!), not just Thoughtsiezes but real focused discard, then your meta is too 'inside itself' --- that's what allows Pox to show ANY wins in any matches, the meta is tuned away from doubleblack. TopDecks build defense against SOME discard, but 3 turns of it hurts.

Good chats, fellas.

[OmniStrata]

Welcome back Muja! That Avatar is a welcome sight ^_^. Stuffed Bear XD. Try Tourach, Dread Cantor. I've liked the lore and flavor behind the guy. Protection from White is super relevant too. :cool:

[OmniStrata]

https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/decks/4:k9-flakmonkey-competitive-constructed-league

Anyone know how to squeeze in 2 Feed the Swarm? Or just work as is because win % is more important than dealing with everything?

[z0anthr0pe]

How does that deck even win? Is it with Lili zombies? Looks like you're hurting yourself with some of those cards.

[OmniStrata]

How does that deck even win? Is it with Lili zombies? Looks like you're hurting yourself with some of those cards.

7 threats can carry through when spheres and Nether Void prevent Playing at all. Castle Locthwain helps dig for what you need and becomes a filter for single junk cards in your hand if needed with Chains of Mephistopheles.

[PirateKing]

How does that deck even win? Is it with Lili zombies? Looks like you're hurting yourself with some of those cards.

Opponent's losing the will to live is a valid win condition

[mujadaddy]

Stuffed BearHeya, good to be back, thanks. :2:🐻 I don't have any Liliana's so
Tourach, Dread Cantor looks interesting, at minimum, with the kicker option; don't really want him early in this deck though. I still think Syphon Life is the stuff, especially with Crucibles.

That 5-0 prison list is.... a bit showy, but it looks like it worked. I know I'm old fashioned but, Hymn?

[OmniStrata]

Heya, good to be back, thanks. :2:�� I don't have any Liliana's so
Tourach, Dread Cantor looks interesting, at minimum, with the kicker option; don't really want him early in this deck though. I still think Syphon Life is the stuff, especially with Crucibles.

That 5-0 prison list is.... a bit showy, but it looks like it worked. I know I'm old fashioned but, Hymn?

Hymn is perfectly fine, but this Flakmonkey list went Thoughtseize for pinpoint power. I think if you want hymn to tourach, you need only drop the Spheres of Resistance and Nether Voids. Losing the will to live occurs off of Dark Ritual > Thoughtseize > Discard their counterspell > Sphere of Resistance on the play. Haven't seen people stick around after that. Or they scoop on turn 3 sinkhole/smallpox ^_^.

[PirateKing]

Hymn is perfectly fine, but this Flakmonkey list went Thoughtseize for pinpoint power. I think if you want hymn to tourach, you need only drop the Spheres of Resistance and Nether Voids. Losing the will to live occurs off of Dark Ritual > Thoughtseize > Discard their counterspell > Sphere of Resistance on the play. Haven't seen people stick around after that. Or they scoop on turn 3 sinkhole/smallpox ^_^.

It's challenging to teach over the internet, but it's how you cast the spells that helps in them losing the will to live. Your body language needs to convey that you're not here to win. You're not here to lose. You're here to punch tickets to a personal hell of which no player gets to do anything, ever. And you like it there. It's a subtle smugness that makes them question if just taking the loss and going outside for fresh air maybe isn't the worst thing ever.

It's a Pox player's most useful weapon :D

[OmniStrata]

It's Prison Pox where Death is slow and Agonizing as 2 damage pulls tiny bite sized pieces out of your arse every, single, turn. Mishra's Factory, Cursed Scroll and Liliana, the Last Hope Ultimates cause your Nether Void managed to stick after they countered your Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere & Thoughtseizes. :laugh:

[Reeplcheep]

There has been a lot of hype about currency converter in lands recently (www.twitter.com/alli_on_mtgo/status/1535013101204037644). Loam pox is a lands-adjacent deck that appears to use it better. Liliana OTV and Smallpox synergize much better with a discard based engine than exploration and crop rotation do. A 1 drop that poops out zombies is much more in line with an attrition deck than a combo/prison one.

It is a hybrid between bitterblossom, mox diamond, and scroll rack, all of which are reasonable cards in loam pox, but only 1 mana so you can get it with saga. It has a ton of synergy with cycle or channel lands, which are more valuable in pox than lands (due to the lack of exploration). Compared to the dark ritual/karn shells, smallpox and hymn inherently wants to play a smaller game. Karn pox does a poor job of being a “go big” deck compared to eldrazi post or curses.

My draft list:


4 Urza’s Saga
4 Wasteland
3 Maze of Ith
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawmoth
2 Boseiju, Who Endures
2 Barren Moor
1 Nurturing Peatland
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Swamp

4 Currency Converter
4 Raven’s Crime
4 Life From the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
2 Witherbloom Command

3 Thoughtseize
4 Smallpox
3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Nether Spirit
1 Shadowspear
1 Nihil Spellbomb

[Fox]

@reeplcheep This list can't interact an enemy Currency Converter, and their Currency Converter will be better than yours b/c all this deck can realistically discard is lands (which make Lotus Petals rather than 2/2s). This is a crippling flaw which needs to be fixed, because anyone, short of Thopter Tribal (Ninjas), should have already figured out that Currency is a better card than Retrofitter. If you expect 15-20% of opponents to be on Saga, they are also going to be on Currency.

[Reeplcheep]

@reeplcheep This list can't interact an enemy Currency Converter, and their Currency Converter will be better than yours b/c all this deck can realistically discard is lands (which make Lotus Petals rather than 2/2s). This is a crippling flaw which needs to be fixed, because anyone, short of Thopter Tribal (Ninjas), should have already figured out that Currency is a better card than Retrofitter. If you expect 15-20% of opponents to be on Saga, they are also going to be on Currency.

We have 2 Boseiju that we can recur and 2 witherbloom command. Surely that will be enough? If it isn’t we can always cut the 4th converter for a needle or the 4th loam for another command. Furthermore, in a saga + shadowspear mirror a lotus petal is better than a 2/2 zombie imo.

That is an interesting prediction. 8 cast and Ninjas both want Retrofitter since they can make a bunch of thopters easily. Lands I can see running this, as mentioned above, but what other saga decks are there? Hmm this could be better than Retrofitter in curses, I would have to see.

I had assumed you would have criticized the deck as having too much discard and not enough removal in a delver meta instead of the above.

[Fox]

As a Pox deck you should be way more concerned with the first real anti-discard card since SDT was banned. There are reactive (bad) cards like Veil of Summer ofc, but very few "you can't discard me effectively and also this is an engine card." Your first goal as Pox is to have a plan against this card, before you ever consider using it. When you start discarding an opposing Currency, their 2/2 spam is going to come out ridiculously faster than you can keep up with. You cannot [safely] play fair, discard-heavy styles until this problem is solved (you need Leylines or Dauthi or Karn. Needle is super high variance since you'd be hitting your own 4-of).

This is an overarching strategy problem, which puts it upstream of meta considerations and deck vs deck matchups.

[Reeplcheep]

Those are decent points. However both smallpox and Liliana are symmetrical so I don’t see how they are going any faster. If ravens crime is unprofitable, I can always loot with the ability instead. Thought seize is the most negatively affected, but it also gains the most from being able to be looted away for value. I will consider cutting thoughtseize for fatal push and another witherbloom.

Some examples of where converter is excellent even without affecting the opponent:

Converter, swamp, Forest, loam. If you loot t2 and make a 2/2 on t3 upkeep you are up a card and 2/2 on the normal line (loam without targets) for 1 mana.

Land land fetch mox converter crime loam. A bit magical Christmas land, but it Lets you retrace 3x by t2 instead instead of only 2x.

[BlogBoy]

Cool to see this forum is still going even after 2 months of no activity. Fox brings up a good point that enemy Currency Converter is actually a solid anti Pox card. Luckily for Green and Black you can deal with that with Green and Black removal. As Saga tutors out Currency as well I agree it doesn’t need to be a four of, but it’s powerful enough to at least play two there is fine. This gives you the ability to needle it if the enemy Converter poses a big enough threat.

As Karn is a big mana card I don’t think it should be considered on Loam Pox as working with Loam and Saga is an already working strategy and Loam Pox can’t get him out fast enough. It works in Mono Black Pox to some degree because Rituals exist and it gives Pox an unfair way to win at a deck building cost that isn’t that high considering Karn’s power level. As Mono Black is weak to artifacts I think Karn is fine, but it just doesn’t belong in Loam where you have removal for the artifacts you want to hose.

Also think Currency Converter could become great in Mono Black Pox too as it rewards you for using self discard and can filter out dead cards for you.

All that said I think more Pox players should consider Black Market Connections as it only fuels the Karn and / or Saga strategies that Pox has picked up. Will it be good in Pox? Only results can show. I think it will be good though.

[Reeplcheep]

Yes as I have said to you numerous times, karn is a “big game” card that shouldn’t be in the same deck as smallpox. I think your karn lists would do much better with hymn or chalice than smallpox.

Currency converter and loam provide the perfect “small game” engine that works well with smallpox. My list inspired more pedigreed lands/depths players:

“Went an unimpressive 4-3 with Loam Pox. list largely copied from
@reeplcheep
.
List is super fun and definitely stronger than it looks at a glance but not fully tuned. I will likely be working on it for a bit. Matchups in the first comment
“ - Michael Mapson
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FVpESx_XwAE6L9u?format=jpg&name=small

From his ideas and some of my own matches I tuned the list a bit:
3 cmc Creatures that produce tokens are aweful for the deck. With so few fetches revolt is hard to trigger early but I think rider is too expensive. I think a few decays are good, I can afford to skimp on 1 cmc removal with so much discard and acceleration.

I think map is an excellent addition. I really like nether spirit to loot with converter or save your constructs from your smallpoxes.

Maze was medium, reasonable to cut. Especially with map, I would like 1 karakas. I am not sure about cabal pit but it is reasonable to try.


4 Urza’s Saga
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Cabal Pit
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawmoth
2 Boseiju, Who Endures
2 Barren Moor
1 Nurturing Peatland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Swamp

3 Currency Converter
3 Raven’s Crime
4 Life From the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
2 Witherbloom Command
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Thoughtseize
4 Smallpox
3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Nether Spirit
1 Shadowspear
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Expedition Map


Overall the deck seems well founded. Converter provides the tempo and filtering to support ravens crime. Raven’s Crime is an outlet for all your lands that is different than exploration, making sure the deck isn’t just “lands, but bad” or “slow depths, but bad”. The green splash provides cheap CA, sideboard cards, and md enchantment/artifact removal which have are pox’s historical weak points.

[Reeplcheep]

I am very busy with IRL stuff but managed to get a few games in. Some of the other pilots don’t like decay since it misses murktide, but I value the flexibility highly in a deck without cantrips. With extra thoughtseizes and 7 sac effects it seems manageable.

Hands without converter, thoughtseize, or mox diamond feel very clunky so I decided to max out on those cards. Cabal pit has outperformed my (low) expectations and so I want 2. Highlights include killing a scary prelate on 2, delvers, etc… Going up to 6 fetches has felt good to maximize early life from the loams. To make room for this we had to cut the expedition map package.


4 Urza’s Saga
4 Wasteland
2 Cabal Pit
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawmoth
2 Boseiju, Who Endures
2 Barren Moor
2 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Swamp

4 Currency Converter
2 Raven’s Crime
4 Life From the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
2 Witherbloom Command
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Thoughtseize
4 Smallpox
3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Nether Spirit
1 Shadowspear
1 Nihil Spellbomb


For Mr. fox, I haven’t seen anyone else playing converter. Nevertheless, this list does have 10 different ways to answer it cleanly (decay, witherbloom, boseiju, thoughtseize + sideboard needles and FoV)


4 Leyline of the Void
2 Force of Vigor
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Bontu’s Last Reckoning
1 The Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale
1 Pithing Needle
1 Graffdiggers Cage

The sideboard is a bit weird since we are a gy and artifact deck that is weak to other gy and artifact decks. FoV is hard to alt cast but there aren’t many better options. Thoughtseize into chalice on 0 is our best way to beat 8cast and storm as we can’t run null rod/ouphe. We are very weak to token producers, bontus and tabernacle over other options to hit murktide/kappa. Needle and cage are saga bullets.

[Mr. Safety]

How do you feel about Cursed Scroll? I have used it in an aggro version of 8cast and I loved how it provided reach. It isn't reliable against early small creatures but it helps close out games. I always liked Crop Rotation in Loam Pox, it was such a versatile card. I was playing Depths in that version, but I didn't always fetch Depths, it was often Wasteland, Cabal Pit, or Karakas.

[Reeplcheep]

Shadowspear is our “reach”. I am not sure if we need much more. Cursed scroll not killing DRC and murktide makes it significantly worse. I don’t want more clunky 1 drops, that is why I cut expedition map.

Crop rotation is a good card. I just don’t think it fits the deck. Crime/converter/smallpox means we are an attrition deck not a toolbox/combo one. Crop rotation would be better inherently better in a slow depths shell.

[Clark Kant]

This list and video is worth checking out...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ryBMh9C2lTk&t=49s

[FTW]

Phil's games were fun to watch.

//Lands: 27
13 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Dakmor Salvage
2 Castle Locthwain
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

//Spells: 23
4 Dark Ritual
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sudden Edict
3 Pox

//Planeswalkers: 4
4 Liliana of the Veil

//Creatures: 4
4 Bloodghast

//Artifacts: 2
2 Crucible of Worlds

//Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ashiok, Dream Render
2 Null Rod
2 Torpor Orb
2 Engineered Plague
2 Feed the Swarm
1 Liliana, the Last Hope


I'm surprised to see the traditional Mishra's Factory over Urza's Saga. Especially with Crucible of Worlds in the deck. There's lost potential with Currency Converter, which should trigger easily with Poxes and Liliana. There's also no tutorable alternate wincon of The Rack or Cursed Scroll in case the "turn 2/2 sideways" plan fails. Too many Sagas does tie up the mana when the deck is otherwise tight on mana, but maybe a 2/2 split of Saga + Factory is better.

[Reeplcheep]

Bloodghast looked pretty great in that league. Perhaps I should play those in loam pox over nether spirit. The timing of landfall as opposed to upkeep trigger is also better with currency converter. I would probably cut 2 decays 1 Lilly and a nether spirit for them.

twitch.tv/sawatrix streamed my deck today to a positive record. He had some great moments including milling a doomsday opponent with witherbloom command for the win.

[Clark Kant]

Bloodghast looked pretty great in that league. Perhaps I should play those in loam pox over nether spirit. The timing of landfall as opposed to upkeep trigger is also better with currency converter. I would probably cut 2 decays 1 Lilly and a nether spirit for them.

twitch.tv/sawatrix streamed my deck today to a positive record. He had some great moments including milling a doomsday opponent with witherbloom command for the win.

Bloodghast is awesome. I am playing Phil's identical list except swapping out 2 Liliana of the Veil with 2 Sinkhole due to owning only 2 Lilis, and with the 2 Null Rods in the sideboard replaced with 2 Hymn to Tourach and Phil's list is incredibly effective in the current meta. Bloodghast has overperformed for me, despite it being weakened by only playing 2 Liliana of the Veil instead of 4.

[FTW]

Null Rod seems important in the meta (8-cast, TES, Echo storm). Sinkhole is not that good and doesn't replace Lili's role. Why not play the 2 Hymn there instead, then keep Null Rod in the SB?

[Reeplcheep]

Nether spirit and bloodghast were ok but a bit underwhelming in testing. Should I try kroxa? Kroxa over uro mainly because the deck is base black instead of base green and already has a lot of colourless sources. Kroxa also inherently synergizes better with discard instead of forces like uro does. It would also let me play blasts, which help a ton vs the most important matchups (8cast and delver).

Between mox and converter we have a lot of 5c sources, so the manabase should function with only 3 changes:
-2 Boseiju -1 swamp +1 Taiga +2 Badlands. Boseiju was nice but it find I am using it less than I expect.

Changes to MD would be - 1 thoughtseize - 1 lily -1 spirit -1 converter +3 kroxa +1 pyroblast

[Reeplcheep]

Alternatively I could try Haunted Dead. Although not very powerful, it is easy to activate and provides roles other than just a finisher. It is another discard outlet for currency converter and it provides flying blockers against delver. Being able to activate at instant speed is nice with decay.

[Reeplcheep]

I’m currently going about 60% in leagues which feels good. Bad matchups are 8 cast and moon stompy as predicted. Pharoah has been a great spirit replacement; I looted it with converter to kill a delver and then a delirium drc the next turn. Urborg to a polluted delta to have more green and better early loams. Snuff out was turned into fatal push because of all the life loss from Pharoah. FoV changed to trophy since we don’t have enough green cards; although killing delvers 1 basic Island with it is pretty funny too.


4 Urza’s Saga
4 Wasteland
2 Cabal Pit
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawmoth
2 Boseiju, Who Endures
2 Barren Moor
3 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Swamp

4 Currency Converter
2 Raven’s Crime
4 Life From the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
2 Witherbloom Command
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
4 Smallpox
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Vengeful Pharoah
1 Shadowspear
1 Nihil Spellbomb

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Worm Harvest
2 Assassin’s Trophy
2 Bontu’s Last Reckoning
2 Fatal Push

[Reeplcheep]

I finished the first vengeful pharoah league to a 5-0.

MUs:
Ouat painter LWW
Oops all spells WW
TES LWW
UR delver WLW
RUG Midrange WW

[FTW]

Great result! I like the Vengeful Pharaoh tech with Currency Converter to discard for value. Free 2/2 while you cycle into a relevant draw and kill their attacker. Works well with Lili too.

Do you need lifegain to offset all the attacks you take with Pharaoh, especially against aggressive decks? 1-of Zuran Orb is tutorable with Saga. Once Orb is in play, you should be able to sacrifice other Sagas for 2 life while the 3rd ability is on the stack -> free value.

Is Worm Harvest any good? I thought most Loam Pox cut it years ago for being too slow.

For 8cast and Moon, what about SB Pernicious Deed? It will kill your own stuff but also kills all their artifact lands, Urza's Sagas, Moxes and prison pieces. I think 1-for-1s (Decay, Trophy) won't be enough to get you there. Deed conveniently gets you out of Null Rod effects too. If not Deed, maybe Ratchet Bomb? It's easier to cast under Blood Moon and can kill enchantments (unlike Powder Keg), but doesn't kill artifact lands or Urza's Saga and will be shut off by Null Rods. Either should also be good vs go-wide decks like Elves and 2/2 spammers (where your core engine is too slow to disrupt).

[Reeplcheep]

In this league the “must attack” on DRC was relevant, making the pharaoh even better.

Loss of life has occasionally been relevant. Shadowspear is already in the deck as tutorable lifegain and is less of a dead draw. Witherbloom also has incidental lifegain. I think I would prefer to work on the incidental life gain & life loss before adding a dedicated lifegain card. Thoughtseize to IoK or decay to witherbloom/collective Brutality.

Worm harvest was very good vs current jeskai. They have lots of low loyalty PWs, run surgical over rip, and have cut most FoNs and boardwipes. It is unplayable if grixis or bant come back though.

8 cast is the reason for all the chalices. The premise is that thoughtseize into chalice is your best opener for them and is also great vs storm. And the bontus clears up the board with minimal collateral damage. I’m worried that they would rebuild from the loss of their board faster than you. Do you think that strategy is too greedy? I would prefer to start with a third boardwipe.

[BlogBoy]

I don’t play Magic for a full time occupation or side hustle and have no real Magic career, but Pox player Adachi Ryosuke topped a 49 player event with this Pox list. https://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/400985/show/

I don’t actually advocate a complete deck building match as I can tell you right now he is an above average Magic player who can top medium and even large events in multiple formats and on a sub optimal deck list here. I get no gratification bashing his decklists, I just don’t want others mislead into believing this is the “way” to play Pox.

If you want to discuss how to improve his Karn Pox list I be willing to discuss it with you, but even after the said Pox deck is improved there is no guarantee that you’ll get the same results as him. I will say though I can make the deck more consistent.

[FTW]

Has anyone played Pox lately?

I love the synergy between Currency Converter and Liliana of the Veil/Smallpox.

The other big weakness of Pox was lack of lifegain to survive the long attrition games. 2 newer cards help this. Cling to Dust both gives recurring lifegain and solves many recurring problems that would beat the attrition engine (Uro, Loam). Saga into Shadowspear also adds lifegain and helps the tokens beat through blockers.

Is a monoblack version viable for more stable mana without being as weak to Loam hate?


//Lands: 24
4 Urza's Saga
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Castle Locthwain
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
10 Swamp

//Spells: 24
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cling to Dust
2 Bloodchief's Thirst
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
2 Sudden Edict
2 Pox

//Planeswalkers: 6
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Karn, the Great Creator

//Artifacts: 6
3 Currency Converter
1 The Rack
1 Shadowspear
1 Nihil Spellbomb

//Sideboard: 15
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Engineered Plague
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Torpor Orb
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Sudden Edict
1 Lost Legacy
1 Tourach, Dread Cantor


I think cutting down to 1 Rack is correct so you don't get blown out by artifact hate. Currency Converter and Spellbomb can at least convert to a card easily. Multiple Racks are a liability vs Force of Vigor/Meltdown. But having the 1 Rack still gives you the easy tutorable noncombat win condition.

I started off with 2 Crucible main (2 Torpor SB) and 0 Karns, but it quickly became clear that Karn should be better if you can reach 4 mana. Karn helps many Pox weaknesses: hates on artifact mana sources that dodge Smallpox, kills Chalice, disrupts combos, finds answers to noncreature permanents in game 1 (Ratchet Bomb), gains life (by diverting attacks), or exiles the graveyard (Crypt). Each of those modes helps monoblack attrition with a weakness. Or Karn can just fetch Crucible for attrition or get Coating to destroy basics.

It's possible Innocent Blood is better than Bloodchief's Thirst in a meta full of Delver and Initiative, though kicked Thirst kills nasty stuff like M&B and Karn. I went with Sudden Edicts instead for Marit Lage & Sneak Attack.

[Hardcore]

. For a long time the game has been changing so that what the deck does is irrelevant. It began with the introduction of planeswalkers and got worse with sagas. There is no way a printing of a new card can rectify this.

Pox worked best when Delver decks was still built around Delver, lightning bolts and goyfs. Back then I got a perfect run at the lgs with a 5-0 win. I am content with that result. Last year I sold my collection and that is that.

[drmarkb]

Deck isn't really Pox any more- sagas, karn, whatever in mono black shells, aggro beats in black, depths mono b with voidwalkers and opposition agents etc., curses all exist. Ryosuke still plays the KMCs and does well with smallpox builds. You might see smallpox in some lists, you won't see daddy Pox ever except for content creators and that was true a few years ago. There is a discrd for all the mono b family of pox-ish things.

[Hardcore]

An update.

4 Eumidian Hatchery
10 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Undercity Sewers
4 Polluted Delta

4 Smallpox
2 Pox
4 Bitter Triumph
4 Dark Ritual
4 Long Goodbye
3 Ripples of Undeath
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Sinkhole

3 Qarsi Revenant
2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
3 Orcish Bowmasters
4 Bloodghast

SB
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Null Rod
4 Disruptor Flute
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Massacre

The format is harder than ever, but Pox got the tools to compete.

[PirateKing]

Are the two big Pox aimed offensively to attack the opponent's resources, or as an engine to extract the value out of Hatchery.
I always found it underwhelming for the cost, but that was only through the lens of doing harm to the gamestate.

[Hardcore]

Are the two big Pox aimed offensively to attack the opponent's resources, or as an engine to extract the value out of Hatchery.
I always found it underwhelming for the cost, but that was only through the lens of doing harm to the gamestate.

Sometimes you really need to cut the opponent down to size. However, I feel the need for Ghost quarter more acutely if I don't have the big pox.

[ntropy]

I'm also a Big Pox defender. Hitting them for 7 damage is huge, as well as the potential to take 2 lands and revert to a low resources game if they get ahead. I played 2 in my Loam Pox list at EW. I think it has always been the most powerful card in the deck. (other than Mox Diamond...) It's just also the hardest to get to land.