[Primer/Deck] Pox

[mujadaddy]

That is an interesting spin. Ratchet Bombs could help against RIP

Regarding his list, with Mox Diamonds he could run Academy Ruins :laugh:

Also, some people always have 4 Engineered Plagues, some don't. Pure meta choice, or is there math involved?

[OmniStrata]

Regarding his list, with Mox Diamonds he could run Academy Ruins :laugh:

Also, some people always have 4 Engineered Plagues, some don't. Pure meta choice, or is there math involved?

I used to run Eng. Plague but discovered my Meta's tribals were too few. I'd say meta choice. Infest and Perish [moreso with infest] have better killing power then a plague. Goblins seem to be the only sure fire tribal that plague was made to kill due to lack of lords.

For creatures, I find my 5-cards of choice to board in are Spinning Darkness x2, Perish x2, and Tainted Aether. Target kill is good, and murdering Goyfs and Nimble Mongoose and Scavenging Ooze and Progenitus is fun.

[Hardcore]

Todays tourney i went 2-2 with a deck were I ran lightning greaves. But I had better luck when looking for cards in the store! I found 4 Shadow of doubt for 9$ which is cheap. On magiccardmarket they go for 5 euro. Each.
(Yeah, it is the same store that never have the cards I look for.)

So, given that there were no Swords to plowshares in sight, today, I simply replace the greaves with shadows.
Playtest will be next week, of course.


3 Tombstalker
4 Nihilith
4 Bloodghast
3 Phyrexian Negator

4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Hymn to Tourach

3 Darkblast
4 Shadow of Doubt

4 The Rack
2 Sensei’s Divining Top

20 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage

SIDEBOARD

4 Surgical Extraction
4 Duress
3 Lightning Greaves
4 Perish

[lithiux]

@Qweerios: How critical are those two Tabernacles to your game plan? That deck looks sweet as hell (and let's me play my Four Seasons Mishra's Factories) and I hate to be that guy, but man... I do not want to buy Tabernacles. Are they critical to keeping creatures in your opponents hand? You have pretty good tools so long as you're not swarmed, it would seem.

[OmniStrata]

@Qweerios: How critical are those two Tabernacles to your game plan? That deck looks sweet as hell (and let's me play my Four Seasons Mishra's Factories) and I hate to be that guy, but man... I do not want to buy Tabernacles. Are they critical to keeping creatures in your opponents hand? You have pretty good tools so long as you're not swarmed, it would seem.

Liliana of the Veil + Cursed Scroll are great ways to keep creatures in your opponents hand. Oh wait, they have to discard them to her lol :tongue:

[mujadaddy]

@Qweerios: That deck looks sweet as hell I'd be remiss in not echoing this truth.



@Hardcore
How is Negator doing? Do you ever consider HPM (probably not in a heavy creature build?) or Obliterator? Obviously you wouldn't want to run 3 Oblits, but they're the kings of ground combat... And were you running 4 Greaves?

@OmniStrata
Infest is nice, but something in a creature-light build that I've been looking at is Black Sun's Zenith since it persists counters and replaces itself if it's cast. Just a random thought.

[beez]

A singleton of a Haunted Plate Mail has been pretty good for me so far in the few games I have played with it, though I sometimes have to use Top to keep it from being drawn too soon and discarded to Liliana before I have the four mana, but it is quite sweet when it finally drops.

[Hardcore]

@mujadaddy

I had one HPM in the deck last time.
It is not uber but OK. Nice that it can become a creature at instant speed.

Negator is cool but there are probably better creatures. Obliterator perhaps, but he will probably eat swords when get in play.
Besides, evasion, or Obliterator ability, is short of the same thing. I have won games thanks to the fear of nihilith.
Tombstalker has flying.

Greaves: 3

[beez]

I'd be remiss in not echoing this truth.



@Hardcore
How is Negator doing? Do you ever consider HPM (probably not in a heavy creature build?) or Obliterator? Obviously you wouldn't want to run 3 Oblits, but they're the kings of ground combat... And were you running 4 Greaves?

@OmniStrata
Infest is nice, and an instant, but something in a creature-light build that I've been looking at is Black Sun's Zenith since it persists counters and replaces itself if it's cast. Just a random thought.

The main problem with BSZ besides being a little slow and mana intensive is that it is not Teeg-proof.

[mujadaddy]

Re: Teeg
I wouldn't think of running more than one BSZ, backed up w/ perishes, but I wasn't thinking of Mr. Teeg, good point. I was thinking of the situation where you had a couple big critters that shrinking would buy you time.

@Hardcore
Yeah, Tomby, Nihilith, Oblit, all eat swords, too though. In a Poxing deck, you do your damnedest to clear that hand out completely before you ever get 4 swamps, and one sword cast is one less sword later on. You can't win every tempo battle.

I see you running 4 Racks above. Do you find 2-cards/1-point coming up often enough to be relevant over Shrieking Affliction? Do they stabilize and have 2-cards in hand enough? That is, do you find that The Rack is 'strictly better'?

[beez]

Also, the Rack can ping it's damage to a Planeswalker as well.

[mujadaddy]

Also, the Rack can ping it's damage to a Planeswalker as well.

Ahhh, strictly better then :smile:

[HammafistRoob]

4 Shadow of doubt for 9$ which is cheap. On magiccardmarket they go for 5 euro. Each.
(Yeah, it is the same store that never have the cards I look for.)

So, given that there were no Swords to plowshares in sight, today, I simply replace the greaves with shadows.
Playtest will be next week, of course.


3 Tombstalker
4 Nihilith
4 Bloodghast
3 Phyrexian Negator

4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Hymn to Tourach

3 Darkblast
4 Shadow of Doubt

4 The Rack
2 Sensei’s Divining Top

20 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage

SIDEBOARD

4 Surgical Extraction
4 Duress
3 Lightning Greaves
4 Perish


Using my Shadow of Doubt tech eh? Card is sweet imo.

Your list seems kinda weird. No Liliana? Negator? Don't get me wrong I love Negator but he doesn't seem needed. The most obvious swap to me would be -3 Gator -1 Pox +4 Liliana.

[Hardcore]

The main reason not to run Obliterator is the mana cost. "Days of Disease " had a cap of two CC for its cards. Legacy is faster than extended so going in the other direction seems questionable. Ultimately it depends on wether or not Obliterator can improve my win percentage.
He is a great blocker, but is he better than nihilith or tombstalker when attacking? He won't be blocked, but neither will they.

As for the rack it is nice to have second line of attack. It works very well with POX, which is a reason for me playing four of them.

Also, liliana doesn't seem to do much for me. Top seemed to have been more usefull last tourney. I think that the threat count is more important in this type of pox, than disruption (got plenty all ready).
Consequently I am open for suggestion for Negator replacements.

[mujadaddy]

Mana cost isn't more than HPM as a one of, and the occasional 'Stalker can cost 4 also. It's a terrible idea if you have fewer than 20 basic swamps, of course. I think the point of having an Oblit is the special ability shutting down the ground game if you get behind. Again, just an idea. Great sexy black beastie.

And regarding the Rack, I was asking about Rack vs Shrieking, not on why it was there :smile:

[Hardcore]

Need to test Withering Wisps :0::b::b::cool:

+ 1 Wisp
+1 swamp

-2 Negator

[mujadaddy]

Need to test Withering Wisps :0::b::b::cool:

+ 1 Wisp
+1 swamp

- 1 Negator
- 1 The RackI actually ran that as a 3-of in my pox list with Arenas in the Source Tourney ... 3 or 4 years ago? It was okay, but mana-hungry. I'd lose games with my opponent at 1 or 2 life. The list also had Culling Scales and Chalices (not at the same time of course).

Now though, with Haunted Plate Mail activations costing zero, that could actually work.

[Hardcore]

I figure the decks will have creatures in play long enough to use the ability. And that my dudes are big enough to handle it.

[Dwell]

I actually ran that as a 3-of in my pox list with Arenas in the Source Tourney ... 3 or 4 years ago? It was okay, but mana-hungry. I'd lose games with my opponent at 1 or 2 life. The list also had Culling Scales and Chalices (not at the same time of course).

Now though, with Haunted Plate Mail activations costing zero, that could actually work.

I'm looking to play test this soon. Seems like it would work really well, especially in monoblack builds.

I'm looking to take this G/B build to an upcoming tourney. Any thoughts?

4 Bayou
4 Mishra's factory
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Swamp

4 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Nether Spirit

2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll

3 Sylvan Library
1 Precocious Deed

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition oh Kozilek
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
2 innocent Blood

SB
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Extirpate
4 Pithing Needle
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Innocent Blood
2 Disfigure

[mujadaddy]

@Dwell

Abrupt Decay won't hit Jace (or other 4cc enchantments), and you don't have a lot of creatures to deal with him otherwise... Disfigure should probably be a sweeper instead (infest, perish), although you do have the Deeds, which hit your Sylvan & Liliana... 4 Legendary Urborgs always makes me uncomfortable, too, which is why I tend not to splash. And maybe split 3 IoK/1 Duress? I don't know the current thinking on this.

Just thoughts from someone who's not been playing very much, so take them as such.

Personally, I hate the Land Destruction path, and respect discard more in a format where 4cc is enormous.

[OmniStrata]

@Dwell

Abrupt Decay won't hit Jace (or other 4cc enchantments), and you don't have a lot of creatures to deal with him otherwise... Disfigure should probably be a sweeper instead (infest, perish), although you do have the Deeds, which hit your Sylvan & Liliana... 4 Legendary Urborgs always makes me uncomfortable, too, which is why I tend not to splash. And maybe split 3 IoK/1 Duress? I don't know the current thinking on this.

Just thoughts from someone who's not been playing very much, so take them as such.

Personally, I hate the Land Destruction path, and respect discard more in a format where 4cc is enormous.

Oddly enough, where the hell did you get that epic avatar? ^_^ It's been bugging me... :cool:

Planeswalkers die to some basic Pox weapons as is. Pithing Needle from SB, Cursed Scroll, The Rack (you did include Oppression, Necrogen Mists, Liliana right?) and Ratchet Bomb. Yes that's right, in top deck mode, excluding some minor card goofiness, of which needs to be top decked anyway, you CAN BOMB THE JACE! ^_^

[beez]

@Dwell

Abrupt Decay won't hit Jace (or other 4cc enchantments), and you don't have a lot of creatures to deal with him otherwise... Disfigure should probably be a sweeper instead (infest, perish), although you do have the Deeds, which hit your Sylvan & Liliana... 4 Legendary Urborgs always makes me uncomfortable, too, which is why I tend not to splash. And maybe split 3 IoK/1 Duress? I don't know the current thinking on this.

Just thoughts from someone who's not been playing very much, so take them as such.

Personally, I hate the Land Destruction path, and respect discard more in a format where 4cc is enormous.

Yeah, I dig that avatar too.

I think the benefits of having 4 Urborg Tombs in the deck outweigh its negatives. I hate not having 2 Black to cast a Hymn or Sinkhole, which happens on uncommon occasion with 8 colorless mana in the deck. Also, remember that with the new Legend rules, Urborg falls under what shall be henceforth known as the Cradle Clause: Tap Legendary land for mana. Float it. Play new Legendary Land, sac the already tapped one, as is your choice. Tap it for another mana.

[beez]

Oddly enough, where the hell did you get that epic avatar? ^_^ It's been bugging me... :cool:

Planeswalkers die to some basic Pox weapons as is. Pithing Needle from SB, Cursed Scroll, The Rack (you did include Oppression, Necrogen Mists, Liliana right?) and Ratchet Bomb. Yes that's right, in top deck mode, excluding some minor card goofiness, of which needs to be top decked anyway, you CAN BOMB THE JACE! ^_^

I ticked one up to 10 once (you know how grindy Pox can be) waiting in order to Bomb an Omnicience, but he Cunning Wished for a Trickbind. Oh well.

[Yonthan]

@Dwell

Abrupt Decay won't hit Jace (or other 4cc enchantments), and you don't have a lot of creatures to deal with him otherwise... Disfigure should probably be a sweeper instead (infest, perish), although you do have the Deeds, which hit your Sylvan & Liliana...

Sadly, when the deeds were printed, there was no planeswalker yet, and hence the wordings on the card didn't hit any planeswalker and hence your lili is safe :D but so does opponent's jace =(

[mujadaddy]

Sadly, when the deeds were printed, there was no planeswalker yet, and hence the wordings on the card didn't hit any planeswalker and hence your lili is safe :D but so does opponent's jace =(

Oh, that's right, my bad. Scroll, Rack, Needle, yeah. I like being prepared.


Good point on the New (Old) Legend rule for Urborg, too, Beez; they keep going back & forth on that!

And I made the avatar back 6 years ago myself, G.O.B. from Arrested Development; "Illusions, Michael..."

[Hardcore]

I am thinking maybe i should remove the negators and add a fourth Tombstalker. That way I drop to 60 cards.


4 Tombstalker
4 Nihilith
4 Bloodghast
4 The Rack

4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Hymn to Tourach

3 Darkblast
4 Shadow of Doubt

2 Sensei’s Divining Top

20 Swamp
3 Dakmor Salvage


That would make the most of the cantrip effect of the Shadow of Doubt.

[Dwell]

@Dwell

Abrupt Decay won't hit Jace (or other 4cc enchantments), and you don't have a lot of creatures to deal with him otherwise... Disfigure should probably be a sweeper instead (infest, perish), although you do have the Deeds, which hit your Sylvan & Liliana... 4 Legendary Urborgs always makes me uncomfortable, too, which is why I tend not to splash. And maybe split 3 IoK/1 Duress? I don't know the current thinking on this.

Just thoughts from someone who's not been playing very much, so take them as such.

Personally, I hate the Land Destruction path, and respect discard more in a format where 4cc is enormous.

I run the AD because is versatile. For JSM i have to deal with him post-SB.
I use Deeds as the sweeper usually. I was thinking of putting 1 Damnation in the side though. the extra 1cc is worth it.

4 Urborgs I believe is a must, for the reasons Beez mentioned.
I disagree about the LD path. I'd like to go as far too add the 4th Sinkhole along with a Nether Void. I'm not too sure what too cut to make the space.

@Hardcore Have you thought about running a few fetchlands for the shuffle effect to clear out deaddraws that might be floating top deck with the top

[Hardcore]

@Dwell
Should I choose to run more tops that would be something to consider. However that would be to commit myself financially in a way I can't afford right now.
This is because should I run fetch lands then I would be on the path to build pox with devastating dreams.
So that would mean buying at least four fetch and four Badlands just because I want to shuffle my deck:laugh:

[mujadaddy]

I am thinking maybe i should remove the negators and add a fourth Tombstalker. That way I drop to 60 cards.

Pretty sexy list man. IF ONLY the card said "or sideboards" it would be really powerful :tongue:

@Dwell, "I disagree about the LD path."
Yeah, it's really a philosophical difference. I reason that mana curves are ridiculously low, and I find Black's version of Control is too passive for my preferred play style. But success is success, so keep grinding 'em out!

[OmniStrata]

I am thinking maybe i should remove the negators and add a fourth Tombstalker. That way I drop to 60 cards.


4 Tombstalker
4 Nihilith
4 Bloodghast
4 The Rack

4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Hymn to Tourach

3 Darkblast
4 Shadow of Doubt

2 Sensei’s Divining Top

20 Swamp
3 Dakmor Salvage


That would make the most of the cantrip effect of the Shadow of Doubt.

Replace Nihilith with Nyxahthid. 1 more cmc for almost double the damage. Seeing as you're running the Rack, you get to increase the synergy using Nyx. What's more, when you topdeck Nihilith, you feel kind of sad inside. When you top deck Nyx, you smirk and be glad that he eats any Tarmogoyf like a sandwich! :cool:

Trust me, evasion isn't worth it's ineffectiveness when both players are in topdeck mode, I tested Nihilith a while ago and unless you're gonna hardcast him [yow], then I find it too awkward.

[mujadaddy]

@OmniStrata
Although I agree about the evasion being only a bonus, Hardcore's list doesn't seem like it runs quite enough discard to take full advantage of Nyxathid. In his list, The Rack seems like something that the opponent slow-plays to avoid, which of course is great tempo for Pox. Just an observation that Hardcore's list goes for critters as opposed to LD or HD. You're right about topdecking, though. I'd test a 2/2 split were I him, actually.

[Hardcore]

It is true I haven't tested Nyxathid but Nihilith simply has better abilities.
It has fear. This mean only black and artifact creatures can block him, and they are all smaller (except for batterskull).
Blockers like Lingering souls just linger helplessly. Fear win me games.

Casting cost of six make him safe from abrupt decay.

He has haste when he enters play from exile zone. This in part compensate for not having the same P/T as Nyxathid.
Also I can only remember one occasion when he was countered when coming into play from suspend. He has been stifled once or twice.

He hides from pox effects, and, because of the wording about suspend on his card, I have control of when he enters play.

And lastly,; people usually have never seen nihilith before and are unfamiliar with his abilities.

[Qweerios]

@Qweerios: How critical are those two Tabernacles to your game plan? That deck looks sweet as hell (and let's me play my Four Seasons Mishra's Factories) and I hate to be that guy, but man... I do not want to buy Tabernacles. Are they critical to keeping creatures in your opponents hand? You have pretty good tools so long as you're not swarmed, it would seem.

It isn't critical, but it is good. You can replace them with Cabal Pit and be fine, the deck just lacks a good way to neuter the board and Tabernacle is the best one. It is also interesting to note how Dredge is a joke matchup with Tabernacle. Extract Ichorid and you win...

[StefN]

PunishingPox BR

Hello everyone. ( Sry I know my english sux and I'm typing on my iPad :(. )

I needed a New cheap deck. I looked threw my binder and found a lot of the Pox stuff that I played a few years ago. I Ordered a few cards, sleeved up the deck and played just for fun, but to be honest, the Fun aspect on my side wasn't that big. I realized fast why I quited to Play this deck a Long Time ago.
- The deck has Big problems against swarm decks.
- Pox does not Play enough removal against decks like Deathblade, Shardl.BUG and so on.
- Jace the Mindsculptor is very Hard to handle.
- Land destruction plan is Not Good enough, if you can't handle your opponents creatures.

So how to solve the Problems? I found a few lists that splashed Green for Decay and Loam. Problem is, Decay does Not handle Jace, and Loam/Wasteland is just not good/fast enough in every matchup every Game.

So First I looked at the normal Pox lists and tried to Figure out wich cards are strong enough.
First the discard package. A deck without Blue needs discard ;). So 4x Inquisition / Hymn is a nice split.
Scondly Smallpox is an incredibly strong effect if you play without creatures. So 4x.
Then obviously Liliana of the Veil. Removal, discard, all in one. I would Play more than 4 if I could.

So here is the List that I'm brewing the Last weeks:

PunishingPox BR

Main:

4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
2x Dreadbore
3x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
3x Punishing Fire
2x Chandra Pyromancer
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Night of Souls Betrayal
1x Nether Spirit
1x Cursed Scroll
3x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Wasteland
3x Groove of the Burnwillow
1x Urborg tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Lawaclaw Reaches
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Marsh Flats
3x Badland
5x Swamp

Side:

1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
2x Slaughter Games
3x Thoughtseize
2x Disfigure
1x Dreadbore
2x Engeneered Plague
3x Nihil Spellbomb

So the Problem with swarming decks is now solved with Pun.Fire and the additional removal.
Chandra is nice as an additional thread, Decay proof, Wincondition, removal and Card advantage with the Top. So far very powerfull.

Until now the deck is very funny to Play. My friends are already pissed when I force them to Test against this list. Testing Partners/Decks: RUG, DeathBlade, Shardl.BUG. All at least slightly favored so far.
Would be nice if more People would Test this List to See if it's strong enough, I'm really satisfied so far :)
The List is far from being Perfect so it needs improvement...........

[OmniStrata]

All this hatred toward LD makes me wish Sinkholes should have plummeted to $5.00 in price. Damn... :mad:

Technically speaking, LD and Discard both suffer from the same fundamental flaws. Neither can handle creatures that resolve, neither are strong late game, and neither disruption are considered "worthy" in the face of a game that likes counter spell type cards.

The only advantage I see going hard discard is the sharper edge you have against combo decks. In fact, you can just take the standard 'hybrid' Pox shell and replace all the Sinkhole with Wrench Mind instead. You get STRONG 2 for 1 setups and most artifacts in legacy are fine discards. Wanna chuck your Aether Vial or LED? Be my guest. Fighting Affinity? *doh* AND it matches the CMC curve perfectly and is budget friendly.

LD still does something that pure discard just cannot do. Clog the top deck. When you color screw your foes with Wasteland or Mana-Screw their 3 cmc Knight of the Reliquary, Lingering Souls, Planeswalkers, or Sword of Rape & Pillage, I find LD an absolutely essential facet of Pox that synergizes with the Discard part.

Cursed Scroll with Liliana of the Veil should be plenty of creature kill. Only horde deck I noticed that gave me trouble was Dredge. Goblins get stomped by Engineered Plague along with Elves and decks that try to function off of 2 land CANNOT function in front of wastes and sinkholes. They have low land counts and those are the decks that Pox will devour like a quick snack. Case and point? Threshold.

[StefN]

First of all Discard is much more flexible than LD. Great against combo and basically against every other deck. Not great as a topdeck in the lategame, but still the best if you're not playing blue.
The point about Sinkhole, and don't misunderstand me. I love this card. Just bought a playset a few weeks ago, but please be honest to yourself. How many games have you lost against a creature or planeswalker with a sinkhole in your hand?? I a lot and that frustated me. The argument to colour screw your opponent in a format that is full of DeathriteShamans is not strong enough. A lot of the time I wished the sinkhole was something else, mostly a removal.
About MindWrench. Hmm I don't thinck that this deck needs more discard especially not an additional cc2 spell + the power level of this spell is not strong enough.

I mean there is a reason why Pox is not a viable deck atm. The mono version is such a chaep deck, so even that should be an argument for playing the deck. The problem is that not every card is strong enough if you look at the power level. The cards that are powerfull enough in my opinion are Liliana, Inquisition + Hymn, Smallpox. The rest can be discussed.

I will work on this list the next weeks. Next weekend is a big tournament, maybe I will test it and report my result...................

[Hardcore]

Yesterday I went 3-1 in the local tourney.


3 Tombstalker
4 Nihilith
4 Bloodghast
4 Order of the ebon hand

4 Smallpox
3 Pox
4 Hymn to Tourach

3 Darkblast
4 Shadow of Doubt

4 The Rack
2 Sensei’s Divining Top

19 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage


SB:

4 Duress
3 Lightning Greaves
4 Perish
4 Surgical extraction



My first opponent played Counterbalance with RIP and Helm combo as win condition.
It is a slow but potentially lethal deck, and one that I probably never fought before. I am used to Angels as win con, and got a bit shaken here by the novelity and didn't know how to fight it.
Perhaps I was just needing a warm up game.
Anyway I lost 0-2 but felt confident. (Btw, this was also only time during the evening that I cast Shadow of Doubt, but of course my opponent would counter it :P)
An Old Swedish nickname for UW control is "Blue Whore". You know why.


Second game was a Bye. Shit happens.


Next I was paired to fight an elf deck. We both knew what the other played.
He tried to play around my smallpoxes by only playing land on turn one, but got Hymned instead. Since his tactic didn't work, he chose to play an elf turn two. That was when I played my smallpox:laugh:

In the second duel I was lucky and drew land and perish when I needed it. Or rather; I didn't get stuck on two mana.
So, 2-0 here.

Last opponent played UW Stoneblade with that UW WoG that can't be countered and that I can't remember the name of.
I was a bit worried that he played counterspells, but he had cantrips and jace instead. A bit of luck went my way in duel one when I forced him to discard his batterskull. (But then that is what hymn is all about.) Second game he mulliganed and was mana screwed. It might not have been fatal against other decks, but I started to play smallpoxes:cool:
He died to the Rack in both duels...
(well, technically in the second he scooped when I destroyed his lands. But the Rack WAS in play:wink:)

It was nice to get a better result than 2-2, or 0-4, and I look forward to next week when my secret tech have arrived by mail!
Until that time I will work on the sideboard.

[OmniStrata]

First of all Discard is much more flexible than LD. Great against combo and basically against every other deck. Not great as a topdeck in the lategame, but still the best if you're not playing blue.
The point about Sinkhole, and don't misunderstand me. I love this card. Just bought a playset a few weeks ago, but please be honest to yourself. How many games have you lost against a creature or planeswalker with a sinkhole in your hand?? I a lot and that frustated me. The argument to colour screw your opponent in a format that is full of DeathriteShamans is not strong enough. A lot of the time I wished the sinkhole was something else, mostly a removal.
About MindWrench. Hmm I don't thinck that this deck needs more discard especially not an additional cc2 spell + the power level of this spell is not strong enough.

I mean there is a reason why Pox is not a viable deck atm. The mono version is such a chaep deck, so even that should be an argument for playing the deck. The problem is that not every card is strong enough if you look at the power level. The cards that are powerfull enough in my opinion are Liliana, Inquisition + Hymn, Smallpox. The rest can be discussed.

I will work on this list the next weeks. Next weekend is a big tournament, maybe I will test it and report my result...................

I'd have to disagree that discard is great against every other deck. When fighting a deck that barfs it's hand with 1 cmc creatures, I find fast use of Smallpox and Sinkhole more effective at stopping their rush then discarding them. I've never had games with a Sinkhole in my hand while facing down a creature or planeswalker. Sinkhole isn't the kind of card I wait on, it has "cast now!" written all over it. My meta also has more basics in it then most being a more budget friendly meta and even in advanced metas, not everyone is going to show up with no basics in their decks. DRS has the same weakness as fighting an elf deck. It's nothing more than a mana dork (albeit with life gain/loss attached). True, it's a black mana dork that makes it hard to kill at times, but it is Perish feed, and us Black Mages love our anti-creature sideboards now don't we? :tongue: Oddly enough, I have more use for Sinkhole top decked then many other cards. Dying to manlands is a worry for a pox player since they use the same mechanism I use to win [factory] and when Wasteland isn't available, Sinkhole saves me. Control meta hurts

With Liliana as a card that you say is 'powerful enough', why not run good old Cursed Scroll with her? When mana dorks can't live to see past the summoning sickness point, or die as a top deck, things seem to float easier. High land count allows its activation to be more reasonable and I don't mind using it to feed top decked dark rituals to. They're great for it actually.

Big props to your Shadow of Doubt tech. Reminds me of stifle for a lot of stupid tutors and fetchlands and is like an instant speed Sinkhole in a format full of fetchland. I should put them back in my deck somehow. :cool:

[OmniStrata]

Yesterday I went 3-1 in the local tourney.


3 Tombstalker
4 Nihilith
4 Bloodghast
4 Order of the ebon hand

4 Smallpox
3 Pox
4 Hymn to Tourach

3 Darkblast
4 Shadow of Doubt

4 The Rack
2 Sensei’s Divining Top

19 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage


SB:

4 Duress
3 Lightning Greaves
4 Perish
4 Surgical extraction



Isn't order of the Ebon Hand kind of inefficient? I like the rest of the list but this win con is odd. Isn't it mana hungry? Why not run Dark rituals and Nantuko Shades? Pro-white is awesome. I'm led to believe you're in a swords and Souls meta. Stromgald Crusader, Knight of Infamy :cool:, and Black Knight feel like better cards for the mana. Looking at your threat heavy list backed by Lighting Greaves in the board, Knight of Infamy would probably love your deck.

[Hardcore]

Actually the order was a more efficient threat than phyrexian negator, but still only a stop gap until arrival, today, of...
Gitaxian Probe

The next level of development for my deck:


3 Tombstalker
4 Nihilith
4 Bloodghast
4 The Rack

4 Smallpox
3 Pox
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Darkblast
4 Shadow of Doubt

2 Sensei’s Divining Top

19 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage

[beez]

Nice result with your interesting list. Glad the shadow of doubt worked out for you.

[lambert101]

I saw some interesting g/b lists on the thread. Please share thoughts on the following list:

4 loam
4 pox
4 small pox
4 Hymn
2 library
4 lilly
1 wurm harvest
1 win con (maybe another walker)
3 mox diamond
4 chalice
4 decay
2 pulse

4 waste
4 bayou
4 factory
6 b fetchs
5 swamps

Posted from cell at work. Sorry for grammar. I basically tweaked a chalice list from
a few pages back.

[StefN]

Is anyone in this thread seriously interested to build a "competetive" Pox list, or are only kitchentable players left here?? (Don't take it personal please).



Nice result with your interesting list. Glad the shadow of doubt worked out for you.

Nice results??? He said that in the last 3 tournaments he played 2-2, 0-4 and 3-1 (basically a 2-1 with the buy) so overall 4-7. This is a nice result?
And you're glad that the Shadow of Doubt worked out for him?? He wrote that he played it once the whole tournament and then it got countered, for me it's more like the playset did nothing.

I would love to build on a Pox list that is playable on bigger tournaments, thought that people are still around here that had the same motivation. I don't thinck that the mono coloured versions are strong enough at the moment, and all the tournament results this last year proofs that.

@lambert101: I thinck chalice is extremely strong atm, the problem is that you need one of your 3 mox diamonds to be able to cast something first turn wich is an absolute drawback in a fast meta. Maybe play cards like Dismember to maximize your first turn drops.

[Hardcore]

StefN, you seem to be new to the thread; Counting tournament results only you missed that my deck is constantly evolving.
I have tried to build a pox deck that is not a copy of Sam Black's(?) deck since 2011. It went through discard and later zombie builds. There were many dead ends and I have a folder with cool black cards that simply were not good enough.

So, yeah, we try to build competitive decks he.

[StefN]

StefN, you seem to be new to the thread; Counting tournament results only you missed that my deck is constantly evolving.
I have tried to build a pox deck that is not a copy of Sam Black's(?) deck since 2011. It went through discard and later zombie builds. There were many dead ends and I have a folder with cool black cards that simply were not good enough.

So, yeah, we try to build competitive decks he.

I guess I'm absolutely wrong in this thread. You are all so convinced about your mono lists, that you ignore, that MonoPox is not able to win big tournaments atm. That's a sad fact, and a reason why we should try to refine Pox.
And please guys don't be mad on me :smile:. I really love Pox. The flavor and style of the deck is awesome, but it's just not competetive atm.

[Hardcore]

Correction: it was Reid Duke, not Sam Black.

[DreAmiN]

Hello guys !

Wanted to try this list :

1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Bojuka Bog
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Dakmor Salvage
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
7 Swamp

2 Nether Spirit
2 Nihilith
3 Bloodghast

4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox


I know MonoB seems to struggle, but I find the B/G one even worse since there is so much DRS in the meta. B/w doesn't seem to offer that much.
I focused heavily on discard to kill with Shrieking Affliction. Shrieking over The Rack because it deals more at one card in hand.

Any advice for the main ? Don't know yet about the board, I want to try a good main first.

[FTW]

I guess I'm absolutely wrong in this thread. You are all so convinced about your mono lists, that you ignore, that MonoPox is not able to win big tournaments atm. That's a sad fact, and a reason why we should try to refine Pox.
And please guys don't be mad on me :smile:. I really love Pox. The flavor and style of the deck is awesome, but it's just not competetive atm.

I've been thinking seriously about the BG version, although Punishing Pox is an interesting twist. The manabase looks so inconsistent though with only 1 Urborg. I don't know how you consistently cast BB spells while not sacrificing Groves?


//29 Mana Sources:
3 Mox Diamond
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Bayou
2 Barren Moor
4 Swamp

//Pox Spells: 26
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Extirpate
1 Darkblast

//Win Conditions: 6
1 Nether Spirit
1 Haunted Platemail
2 Life from the Loam
2 Cursed Scroll

//Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Engineered Plague
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Krosan Grip


Card choices:
A lot of these are pretty standard for BG. I feel Mox Diamond, Loam and lack of big Pox means you should have plenty of mana so mana-hungry cards like Cursed Scroll and Platemail seem viable. I originally had 3 Sinkhole MD but, finding Sinkhole increasingly weak, replaced them for Darkblast and Extirpate for added utility. The Dredging of Darkblast/Loam synergize (help find each other and Barren Moors) and Darkblast just has great utility in general.

Innocent Blood deals with T1 DRS, but so does Extirpate on their fetch/Waste/dual. Because of Split Second, you can either counter their mana production or just exile a land before they can use it. You can also counter either of the other 2 activations or just strip a key card without them getting priority to get some value out of it in response. This is why Extirpate over Surgical. It has the added benefit of stripping their deck of mana sources and potentially mana screwing them later, as well as the usual bonus of hand information and stopping graveyard shenanigans in G1. A lot of people argue Extirpate is just card disadvantage in this deck that can only generate virtual card advantage, but I think this is mitigated by its ability to frustrate DRS and the CA generated by both Loam and Scroll.

Sideboard's a bit finnicky right now. Leyline and Plague should be obvious. Leyline because this is a slow deck and you need to wipe out their GY for good; outraces Griselbees; dodges Decay; can still cast future copies.

Chains is just amazing against Blue, especially control decks with Brainstorms and Jaces and Tops. The argument could be made for -1 Chains +1 Pulse. The real advantage of Chains may just be beating players who have no idea what it does. I think Chains and unbounceable creatures beats Jace a lot better than splashing for Punishing Fire, personally. Chains also completely nullifies Reanimate/Show and Tell/Sneak Attack/Goryo's Vengeance/etc into Griselbrand, Sylvan Library, and random cantrips like Gitaxian Probe. Just don't board it in against Dredge...

Pithing Needle/Duress/Pulse/Grip can come in against a whole whack of decks, anything from combo to control hate. I like having that flexibility so you can board stuff in/out accordingly depending on specific lists. I thought about Chalice because of Mox Diamond, but I think Pox actually beats combo better with 6+ T1 discard effects than it does by trying to combo out T1 Chalice and then being able to run 0 targeted discard. Thoughts?

[StefN]

Overall I like your list. Looks pretty solid. Like the one Off Darkblast and the Loam/Mox/CycleLand Package. Not sure about the landcount. Maybe you could cut 1-2.
About the two Extirpate. I understand why you play it, but I thinck this Card is not flexible enough to Play it Main. Why Play a Card that negates the shaman effect if you can play something to get rid of this Card. Maybe a Pulse or the 4 Decay Main...
....or you play a 1off Vraska :D.

[lambert101]

Still looking into this archetype...more specifically my g/b list above. Wanted thoughts on main with this board:

2 maelstrom pulse
3 ensnaring bridge
3 surgical extraction
3 perish
2 golgari charm
2 zuran orb

my main deck discard and chalice help against combo and tempo (if it can stick)

[Hardcore]

@DreAmiN

Consider removing the dark rituals. You have lots of 1cc drops to play on turn one already. Same for turn two.
Better to have a stable mana base.

You could use card draw effects. Phyrexian arena?

[DreAmiN]

@DreAmiN

Consider removing the dark rituals. You have lots of 1cc drops to play on turn one already. Same for turn two.
Better to have a stable mana base.

You could use card draw effects. Phyrexian arena?

I felt that turn one Liliana is one of the most threatening thing in Legacy. Same for something like Tourach+Blood OTD. I remembered old Legacy monoB with T1 Hypnotic Specter, that was a huge threat, Liliana is just better so why not ? Is Dark Ritual that bad after the playtest ? It's like "hey, look i've already no card in hand and you don't have that much either !".
About Phyrexian arena, I feel 3 mana is a lot. Maybe while keeping Dark Ritual, otherwise I'm afraid Phyrexian Arena comes a little bit late.

About SB any advice ? I'm pretty sure i've to bring Perish (so much Goyf, Gooze, DRS and so) and Plague (Death'n'Taxes, Gob, Merfolk, Elves -even if the latter is hurt by perish).

[beez]

Still looking into this archetype...more specifically my g/b list above. Wanted thoughts on main with this board:

2 maelstrom pulse
3 ensnaring bridge
3 surgical extraction
3 perish
2 golgari charm
2 zuran orb

my main deck discard and chalice help against combo and tempo (if it can stick)

If you are running Chalice main then I wouldn't have 1cc Surgical in the side (Extirpate is a little better for us anyway) but rather Leyline of the Void, as I assume you will mostly have Chalice @1.

[lambert101]

I didn't even realize about surgical. Thats what I get for making post during my coffee break.

[beez]

StefN, you seem to be new to the thread; Counting tournament results only you missed that my deck is constantly evolving.
I have tried to build a pox deck that is not a copy of Sam Black's(?) deck since 2011. It went through discard and later zombie builds. There were many dead ends and I have a folder with cool black cards that simply were not good enough.

So, yeah, we try to build competitive decks he.

I think we all like to win. I know I do, and my build certainly wins most of the time. About 60-40 I'd say in competitive matches, but clearly there is room for improvement as it is hard to go 10-0 with a grindy somewhat inconsistent deck,and no obvious solution which is why the board is active with people trying different things to bring the deck up. I think it is interestingto see what people come up with.

Loam builds have a lot of merit and are quite good. In a vaccum or goldfishing environment they run better. In practice they have some flaws too. For example I was playing my UR Delver list a couple of weeks ago and ran into playing against playing a Loam Pox build. It was the first time I had faced another Pox list other than my own. It felt odd, but was instructional in some ways. The first game Wastelock was too much for me, second game, PoP and Surgical against Loam did work. The final game I was being controlled pretty well and was about to go down to some Loamed up Factories as I couldnt seem to draw into a Surgical (So much Surgical kept me from running more than one Bloodghast in my own Pox build when I ran them because I was sick of being Extracted of win cons, another reason I think Chalice may have some merit in Loam builds especially) at any rate I had managed to get some basics out past the Wastelock, top drew a Snapcaster, flashed back a Price of Progress against 5 Loamed up non-basics and scored 10 for a lucky knockout blow. I did come away admiring the greater speed of the Loam build when the engine was going, but still a bit wary of its graveyard dependence. Still, the graveyard is the best way to break Pox symmetry, but with so much GY hate and other decks happy with having some graveyard too, ie Punishing Fire, it can be tough to pick your poison.

[beez]

I didn't even realize about surgical. Thats what I get for making post during my coffee break.

Extirpate is best against the widest variety of decks, but Leyline they are not as used to seeing and it just ends things completely for Aggro-Loam decks (they at minimum have to burn a Wish for anti-enchantment and it dodges their Chalice) and makes life pretty rough for Punishing Jund as well I have noticed, not to mention the horror it gived Dredge and Reanimator.

[lambert101]

I agree with the loam builds being the way to go. I am trying to make a mainstream list utilizing loam, chalice, and mox diamond. The hardest thing is finding a wincon. I am truly considering Varaksa as a 2 of for a walker build.

4 loam
4 hymn
4 pox
4 small pox
4 lily
2 varaska
4 mox
4 Decay
2 m pulse
2 library
4 chalice

1 tabernacle
4 wasteland
4 bayou
4 verdant
5 swamps
4 factory

[beez]

Worm Harvest and/or Syphon Life are good Loam Pox wincons.

[Hardcore]

@DreAmiN

The odds is not in your favour. To begin a game with both rituals and liliana in hand happen only a fifth of the games.
Then you have lost a card to play lil, and what next? If you use the ability to discard you will be down to three cards in hand allready and your opponent six.
The odds of having both rituals, liliana, and something like nether spirit to discard, at start is down to ca 5%.

All this assumes that you win the dice roll. Going second is worse of course.


These disadvantages of ritual was pointed out to me by others. As a consequence my build moved a way from costly stuff, as much as was possible, along with an adjustment to my play.

[lambert101]

Worm Harvest and/or Syphon Life are good Loam Pox wincons.

Do you think 1 of each (wurm harvest + Syphon Life) would be better than 2 Varaskas? Also considering 2 nether shadows in that wincon space.

[Hardcore]

@l@mbert101

Do you think you can get any use out of Zuran Orb? I have never had enough lands in play for such things. 12 post can ramp enough for such things but it doesn't look workable in Pox.

Btw, Dark Heart of the wood may be better.

[Hardcore]

Sideboard. Talk about this was requested a few pages back and I would be happy to start one. Of course, it matter what pox you run, but we could start with Carsten Kötter's new article on the current Meta. http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/26762-The-Triumvirate.html

So, stifle/daze tempo decks, DRS mid range and cantrip combo. A sideboard need also cover the Meta response to these decks. Like those listed by Carsten.

Smallpox wreaks havoc with the first two types of decks. Discard is good vs. the third.

The question is if there is need to improve any of these matchup by taking up slots for sideboard cards. Alternatively one can focus to fight the coming Meta evolution.

For my part three-four perish is enough to fight the tempo and DRS decks.
This leave me like 11 slots to fight combo.
(and possibly Counterbalance.)
A Thalia style hate is possible with thorn of Amethyst.. I have not had much success with Duress in sideboard. Four spot discard is not enough to get the job done.

Phyrexian revoker then?

How would a sb like this one be?

3 Perish (best sideboard card)
4 phyrexian revoker
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Surgical Extraction


I am not much pleased with revoker either. Needle would be better in a pox deck.
Would be nice to find room for Stromgald cabal

[Hardcore]

I like to have sets of card to board out, and in. Darkblasts, Tombstalker and pox are cards that get replaced most often. Since they come in sets of three the following Sb is handy:

3 Surgical Extraction
3 Stromgald Cabal
3 Perish
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thorn of Amethyst


Because I run a semi 52 card deck having three of each sideboard card is not bad.
Running four would be stronger, but then I would be less consistent when replacing cards. Also, if I feel the need for more reinforcements from the sb, then it's a small thing bring in two three card sets.

[OmniStrata]

@DreAmiN

The odds is not in your favour. To begin a game with both rituals and liliana in hand happen only a fifth of the games.
Then you have lost a card to play lil, and what next? If you use the ability to discard you will be down to three cards in hand allready and your opponent six.
The odds of having both rituals, liliana, and something like nether spirit to discard, at start is down to ca 5%.

All this assumes that you win the dice roll. Going second is worse of course.


These disadvantages of ritual was pointed out to me by others. As a consequence my build moved a way from costly stuff, as much as was possible, along with an adjustment to my play.

How dare you say a turn-1 walker that gives us infinite card advantage and 'perfect' top decking isn't worth it :eek:. Those small percentages mentioned are actually better than 0%. The benefits to that 5% are preposterously large. Pox really has nothing it can do turn 1 to a blisteringly fast draw. There is no 1 mana drop that will save you from a fast Empty the Warrens. 2 mana is for Nausea [lol]. Dark rit to Engineered Plague, Infest, Liliana, Inq + Hymn, etc. Well, I'm talking from fast aggro meta experience. If you're in a slow slow control-y meta, then ok, I'd leave Dark Ritual at home. My environment demands speed.

"What if you top deck Dark Ritual? Great job wasting your draw..."

"Dark Ritual, naming 'other card in my hand', kill that lord or take two to your dome? Activating Cursed Scroll :tongue:"

Make dark rit useful late game by running a few cards that feed off its mana. It's the principle behind the "Giant Growth" aspect of Nantuko Shade from old-school Sui-Black.

Scroll and Phyrexian Totem come to mind, though Totem is much worse in a heavy creature meta, Cursed Scroll makes any low cmc/toughness creature deck cry bloody tears. (outside da Goyf)

If fighting a slower deck, I sideboard out the Dark Ritual for less card disadvantage using sideboard hate. I think it's extremely difficult to function without dark ritual. Also, the 3 for 3 that is Dark Rit + Inquisiton + Hymn is a very very strong start vs. any deck type outside GY decks. You are losing 3 cards, they are losing 3 relevant cards they desperately need to play (unless they kept a shit hand on purpose to 'dodge' your discard lol). Nothing screwed my foe over more than killing their 1cmc drop and 2 starting lands on the play, and when it does, the psychological shock is almost insurmountable.

[mysteriofuentez]

Is anyone in this thread seriously interested to build a "competetive" Pox list, or are only kitchentable players left here?? (Don't take it personal please).

No. There are a select few assholes on the internet that play pox, feel free to join our club any time.


Whats the secret, bro?.

Vindicate, Lingering souls, and StP

There is only so much you can disrupt a guy until he cascades or out-draws you into a win, unless you can bounce back. You need more card advantage than the dark ritual, quick liliana mono-black version. Lingering souls is the card.

Might as well run vindicate and Stp. The deck always lost to a good permanent, Jace et al. Vindicate will fix that plus double as sinkhole numbers 5,6, and 7.

Monoblack can't beat the grindy midrange decks as they are currently being built, and I don't know of a way around that other than going white.

[OmniStrata]

Monoblack can't beat the grindy midrange decks as they are currently being built, and I don't know of a way around that other than going white.

Actually, I'd like to hear the explanation on this.

Giving them health with STP when the deck's namesake cuts your own life down isn't my idea of good synergy. Vindicate sounds awesome though but makes you weaker to Wastelands from an opposing deck. I've experimented with the old "Vaka Pox B/W" and Loam Pox and both run into the same problem. Color consistency and expendability. I find it easier to pick what to discard to Smallpox using Mono-B then color splashed Pox.

[Chatto]

While it's true that MonoBlack is more consistent it runs in some problems against tempo/midranged oriented decks in the (at least my) current meta. Todays decks can drop a bomb (Delver, Shaman, Goyf to name a few) too fast, without us even getting started. Discard does not always do the trick. Brainstorm, Ponder et al makes it easier for opponents to react and possibly save their best cards or dig for a new threat. We just play with what we topdeck. LD is much too weak, as some have advocated in the past, and I must agree: playing Sinkhole (while one of my favorite plays) on a basic just won't do the trick. The curve has dropped drastically and it is possible to play a game on three, even two lands. We, the Pox-player, on the other hand must hit multiples. This also means having more land, which could result in drawing too many lands. Also getting an artifact against you can really really ruin your day, especially when staying true to MonoBlack. Even with some sweeper in the board it could be too slow. In my opinion, the main problem is the fact that we are reactive, and therefor too slow.

Splashing colors opens you up to Wasteland, but it gives you so much more options (Decay, Pulse or StP and Vindicate already being mentioned). I liked to splash Green, but was too eager to throw Nether Void on the pile. Maybe I should stick to splashing for Decay, Deed, LotL and Pulse. I never tried white or red. Perhaps we should get beserk and try blue? I don't really know how to make Pox any stronger/ proactive in a super fast way :smile: :rolleyes:

I gave up a little while ago after being slaughtered for the third time at the monthly tournament at my LGS: it just felt too slow, topdecked horrible and couldn't do anything/ too little against those pesky midranged decks. Worst was when I finally had some softlock, I lacked drawing any kill condition. It was really shitty indeed... Still, I'm tinkering on paper, but just for now dropped Pox and went back to old school Gobbos again (maybe not the best choice, but right now a lot more fun to play).

[Hardcore]

I ran my UB Pox today. Gitaxian probe worked well, but Shadow of doubt was too clunky to be a main deck card.
I used it with success vs a GW deck, but in general the mana cost is too much to pay
in early game vs decks like young pyromancer.

[olystuart]

Will you post your current UB list? I've been messing around with a blue splash as well. I've been considering Brainstorm, Spell Pierce (or other counterspell, something to battle topdecked threats ... perhaps Mana Leak?), Lim-Dul's Vault, Notion Thief in the 'board, and Ancestral Visions. This is for a Rack/discard build, perhaps a blue splash for a LD build might make some use of taxing counters. I'm guessing blue splash is not usually discussed because most of the cards are not synergistic with non-budget Pox cards like Chains and Void.

[Hardcore]

It is hard to splash blue in the traditional manner. A card like Gitaxian probe just "happen" to be blue. In function it is more like a Mishra's bauble, something which "Day of Disease" ran, but is better.

The current list is almost identical to the one posted earlier but with Probes replacing Shadow of Doubt.



3 Tombstalker
4 Nihilith
4 Bloodghast
4 Order of the Ebon Hand

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Smallpox
3 Pox
4 Hymn to Tourach

3 Darkblast

4 The Rack
2 Sensei’s Divining Top

19 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage


My list included three SDT yesterday, but I will cut that to two. Excessive use of the top can actually be a problem!
Long term plan is to replaced them with proper card draw.
BoB would work well with Dredge, but I can't afford him yet.

The order have its uses. First strike and protection from white. Would have been helpfull vs the Shardless and Young Pyromancer decks.

Note: Shadow of Doubt is not a bad card, but may be better in a traditional pox deck.

[OmniStrata]

It is hard to splash blue in the traditional manner. A card like Gitaxian probe just "happen" to be blue. In function it is more like a Mishra's bauble, something which "Day of Disease" ran, but is better.

Note: Shadow of Doubt is not a bad card, but may be better in a traditional pox deck.

Cabal Therapy + Probe? ^_^ Good times. The Shadow is devastating vs. Tutor and Fetchlands, so I'd sideboard it if my meta had more 3 color decks and combo.

[plutajp]

While it's true that MonoBlack is more consistent it runs in some problems against tempo/midranged oriented decks in the (at least my) current meta. Todays decks can drop a bomb (Delver, Shaman, Goyf to name a few) too fast, without us even getting started. Discard does not always do the trick. Brainstorm, Ponder et al makes it easier for opponents to react and possibly save their best cards or dig for a new threat. We just play with what we topdeck. LD is much too weak, as some have advocated in the past, and I must agree: playing Sinkhole (while one of my favorite plays) on a basic just won't do the trick. The curve has dropped drastically and it is possible to play a game on three, even two lands. We, the Pox-player, on the other hand must hit multiples. This also means having more land, which could result in drawing too many lands. Also getting an artifact against you can really really ruin your day, especially when staying true to MonoBlack. Even with some sweeper in the board it could be too slow. In my opinion, the main problem is the fact that we are reactive, and therefor too slow.

Splashing colors opens you up to Wasteland, but it gives you so much more options (Decay, Pulse or StP and Vindicate already being mentioned). I liked to splash Green, but was too eager to throw Nether Void on the pile. Maybe I should stick to splashing for Decay, Deed, LotL and Pulse. I never tried white or red. Perhaps we should get beserk and try blue? I don't really know how to make Pox any stronger/ proactive in a super fast way :smile: :rolleyes:

I gave up a little while ago after being slaughtered for the third time at the monthly tournament at my LGS: it just felt too slow, topdecked horrible and couldn't do anything/ too little against those pesky midranged decks. Worst was when I finally had some softlock, I lacked drawing any kill condition. It was really shitty indeed... Still, I'm tinkering on paper, but just for now dropped Pox and went back to old school Gobbos again (maybe not the best choice, but right now a lot more fun to play).

I've had a lot of success splashing green and playing with mox diamonds and sylvan libraries. A common error that I've seen is GB pox decks relying too much on life from the loam. You really only want to be running 1-2 loams, and not relying on your graveyard. I know this seems counter-intuitive since you are after all splashing green, but the small splash gives you exactly what you need: better removal (abrupt decay), speed (mox diamond) better top decks (sylvan library). While the loam engine can be quite powerful, it makes the deck less balanced and too graveyard reliant. When I played loam pox, I found the hate in games 2-3 too strong.

[D0LPHY]

I’ve been playing roughly this list to some success for a little while now.

1 Cursed Scroll
2 Nether Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Mox Diamond

1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
4 Swamp

Sideboard

1 Surgical Extraction
2 Drop of Honey
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Pithing Needle
4 Extirpate

I’ve come to feel that there’s no going back with regard to the green splash. Abrupt Decay and especially Sylvan Library give the mono-black deck exactly what it’s missing: answers to non-creature permanents and library manipulation. Sylvan lets you float answers on top of your library while using Liliana’s +1 with impunity. At the same time, it’s far more powerful in the early game than Sensei’s Divining Top, and dropping it turn one off of a Mox Diamond will often win the game outright.

I think the biggest misconception about B/G Pox is Life From The Loam. To me it’s fool’s gold, and really doesn’t belong in the deck.

[Chatto]

A common error that I've seen is GB pox decks relying too much on life from the loam. You really only want to be running 1-2 loams, and not relying on your graveyard.

Agreed, and better yet: I almost never used the Loam-enginge, which was quiet weird in a sense. I eventually dropped LotL completely, because it never really got the engine going at all.


I know this seems counter-intuitive since you are after all splashing green, but the small splash gives you exactly what you need: better removal (abrupt decay), speed (mox diamond) better top decks (sylvan library).

Again agreed, but I never used Sylvan Library, but Top for it (in my opinion) went better with Deed. I even tried DRS, and it worked, at least a little bit, but it wasn't exactly great either.


While the loam engine can be quite powerful, it makes the deck less balanced and too graveyard reliant. When I played loam pox, I found the hate in games 2-3 too strong.

Especially in the current meta where RiP and DRS are everywhere...

[OmniStrata]

I was suspecting this would happen. Original Mono-B Pox didn't use it's GY really and Loam Pox is like The Rock with Smallpox thrown in. It's not a 'true' use of Loam, which is waste lock, fetch land, and then tons of 'spell lands' and manlands to keep bombarding your opponent. DRS is a creature that can die. RiP in a B/G deck should easily be handled by Abrupt Decay, but I've found the strength in 'classic' Pox to be that it doesn't put all its eggs in one basket so to speak.

What I'm wondering is if you guys have found any strong lock pieces for Pox. Since we're a top-deck based deck, I've decided to almost carbon copy Reid Duke's idea of simply having STRONG permanents on the field after both players are hand empty and then ride that wave by having superior board presence.

Note, Sylvan Library and Sensei's Top are not superior board presence. Cursed Scroll + Liliana is. The idea is after Pox has done its thing, and the enemy doesn't have 3+ beaters for you, what do you do to ensure his top decks are just dead? The old Nether Void is quite nuts, and thankfully though pricey, you'd really only want one. Trinisphere works if your went hard on the land destruction route or makes your foe cry very hard off a Turn 1 Dark rit. Painful Quandry caught my eye as something to consider as a 1 of. I've had plenty of games where I ultimately lead to my 6th land. Tainted Aether from the board is quite nasty if played after the enemy's creatures are wiped out.

Are there any other lock out permanents Pox can run to practically auto-win games? Since I run Dark Rits, I'm crazy enough to consider spells up to 6 cmc, but like I asked, it should practically guaruntee a win on an empty board state.

[beez]

Painful Quandary...that just sounds like it would be very bad news for a foe before I even looked it up to see what it did. Between the Pox effects and self discard I find it hard to cast anything more than 3 reliably so 5cc is pretty questionable, though I do find with a Top I can hide some important cards until I cast them. I guess Nether Void is the best lock but it puts a tough mana requirement on us too. But I do agree there needs to be some means of taking advantage of Sinkhole and LD rather than just let them get enough lands to play some cheap spells. Either something more tempo like Tainted Aether or Bitterblossom to take advantage of getting a bit ahead while they are temporarily short on lands or a color, since it is difficult to keep them off lands completely, or just crunching in more of the ol' Nether Void, Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance kind of thing, keeping in mind that thier spells are just as cheap or cheaper and besides 4 meager Sinkholes every land they sacrifice we sac one too, so it is hard to get ahead or lock with that. The Painful Quandary of using LD. That is some of the attraction of Crucible and Loam, though I do find it best not to be too GY reliant.

[D0LPHY]

What I'm wondering is if you guys have found any strong lock pieces for Pox. Since we're a top-deck based deck, I've decided to almost carbon copy Reid Duke's idea of simply having STRONG permanents on the field after both players are hand empty and then ride that wave by having superior board presence.

Personally, I've never had difficulty closing out the game once I've stabilized. Liliana + any other lock piece usually does the trick, so I try to focus on cards that translate a slight advantage into an endgame (i.e. Nether Void).


Note, Sylvan Library and Sensei's Top are not superior board presence.

Going to have to disagree there. Sylvan Library and Top take us out of topdeck-mode and allow us to save situational cards on top of our library for when they're needed (typically Smallpox and Abrupt Decay). Given its synergy with Liliana, as well as Crucible (with a fetch in the 'yard), and it's early-game power (something lacking in SDT), I regard Sylvan Library as possibly the best card in the deck.

[mysteriofuentez]

Actually, I'd like to hear the explanation on this.

Giving them health with STP when the deck's namesake cuts your own life down isn't my idea of good synergy. Vindicate sounds awesome though but makes you weaker to Wastelands from an opposing deck. I've experimented with the old "Vaka Pox B/W" and Loam Pox and both run into the same problem. Color consistency and expendability. I find it easier to pick what to discard to Smallpox using Mono-B then color splashed Pox.

Decks with better card advantage than you are very resilient to our attacks. Play the deck against the field. It's not going to win against a lot of the decks. I found that lingering souls fixes the problem. Vindicate is amazing. Swords is debatable. I haven't had any problems with their lifegain, when I'm winning they are on empty and stay on empty. You must grind them out and you win. It's not a race from 20 to 0 it's a race to fuck them over. Can I fuck them over ASAP? Good, I'm winning.

[Chatto]

What I'm wondering is if you guys have found any strong lock pieces for Pox.

Mishra's Factory, Cursed Scroll, Liliana and Nether Void. Just love to give my opponent cards which can't be cast and then let them discard cards... and kill them ever so slowly with Factories/ Cursed Scroll :smile:


Note, Sylvan Library and Sensei's Top are not superior board presence. Cursed Scroll + Liliana is.

I don't fully agree, but I think I understand where you are going: they are no wincons. Yet they get you better cards from the top, getting those wincons faster. It also gives you more reach to get a answer to whatever your opponent throws at you (something Dolphy already stated). I do agree on winning with 'combo' Scroll and Lilly: together they are awesome. Won a lot of games with those two cards on the field :smile:


Are there any other lock out permanents Pox can run to practically auto-win games? Since I run Dark Rits, I'm crazy enough to consider spells up to 6 cmc, but like I asked, it should practically guaruntee a win on an empty board state.

Can't help you there, I'm still looking myself, but I don't think I would go for something like 6 cmc. As far as I know only Nic Fit can pull that off.

[Hardcore]

With Thoughtseize getting a reprint in Theros I am considering running it in my deck (assuming the prices go down). At the very least it should be a better sideboard discard than Duress.

[lukazlml]

I was suspecting this would happen. Original Mono-B Pox didn't use it's GY really and Loam Pox is like The Rock with Smallpox thrown in. It's not a 'true' use of Loam, which is waste lock, fetch land, and then tons of 'spell lands' and manlands to keep bombarding your opponent. DRS is a creature that can die. RiP in a B/G deck should easily be handled by Abrupt Decay, but I've found the strength in 'classic' Pox to be that it doesn't put all its eggs in one basket so to speak.

What I'm wondering is if you guys have found any strong lock pieces for Pox. Since we're a top-deck based deck, I've decided to almost carbon copy Reid Duke's idea of simply having STRONG permanents on the field after both players are hand empty and then ride that wave by having superior board presence.

Note, Sylvan Library and Sensei's Top are not superior board presence. Cursed Scroll + Liliana is. The idea is after Pox has done its thing, and the enemy doesn't have 3+ beaters for you, what do you do to ensure his top decks are just dead? The old Nether Void is quite nuts, and thankfully though pricey, you'd really only want one. Trinisphere works if your went hard on the land destruction route or makes your foe cry very hard off a Turn 1 Dark rit. Painful Quandry caught my eye as something to consider as a 1 of. I've had plenty of games where I ultimately lead to my 6th land. Tainted Aether from the board is quite nasty if played after the enemy's creatures are wiped out.

Are there any other lock out permanents Pox can run to practically auto-win games? Since I run Dark Rits, I'm crazy enough to consider spells up to 6 cmc, but like I asked, it should practically guaruntee a win on an empty board state.

Difficulty to say. Some cards are autowin vs some decks but does nothing against others. You can divide the lock pieces of Pox in two types:

General scope: (MD strategy)
-Nether Void
-Trinisphere (actual meta)

Specific scope (usually on SB)
-Contamination
-Tainted Aether
-The Abyss
-Braids, Cabal Minion
-Chains of Mephistopheles
-Lethal Vapors
-Word of Waste

My personal best are:
-trinisphere
-chains of mephistopheles

[lukazlml]

@l@mbert101

Do you think you can get any use out of Zuran Orb? I have never had enough lands in play for such things. 12 post can ramp enough for such things but it doesn't look workable in Pox.

Btw, Dark Heart of the wood may be better.

Dark Heart of the wood its not a viable choice, basically because of two things (explain later)
1) It cost you two manas
2) Works only with Forests

Zuran Orb is here mostly for the Mono Red and UR Delvers builds that packs a lot of burn spells and can drop your life total from 20 to 0 on a few turns.On these matchups you need to get rid of their T1 creatures (like delver and guide) and maintain a secure life total to avoid a big Price of Progress until you can manage to land a trinisphere or stabilize and control both board and hand. Zuran Orb works great here: Your 0 mana cost allow it to be played together with an innocent blood,smallpox or hymn, and trust me, getting rid of an flipped delver or guide in the same turn you drop Zuran Orb its nearly a Time Walk against these decks (explain reason 1).

Also, it can hit any land, not only Forests, interacting well with Life from the Loam/Crucible and helping avoiding a sneaky price of progress that can insta kill you.(that explain 2). I love to use Zuran Orb with factory, block a big creature and sac for additional 2 life.

Of course Zuran Orb are only present in the SB of Loam Pox builds and Monoblacks builds that run Crucible. Without that cards it lost a lot of power and is better replaced with Spinning Darkness.

[D0LPHY]

Zuran Orb is cute, but rather superfluous most of the time. Unlike (43) Lands, we have no way to recur it if it is destroyed or countered, and no way to tutor for it. You would likely never see it when you needed it, and you would rarely be able to assemble the Orb + Loam/Crucible engine. Besides, it's really only useful against Burn, and that match-up is basically unwinnable. Why waste maindeck or sideboard slots on trying to shore up weaknesses against what is essentially a rogue deck?

Nether Void is our card against Burn; Spinning Darkness helps and isn't a brick in other match-ups, although I have reservations about running it in a B/G list.

[OmniStrata]

With Thoughtseize getting a reprint in Theros I am considering running it in my deck (assuming the prices go down). At the very least it should be a better sideboard discard than Duress.

Here's hoping the price does go down :cool:. However, I wouldn't run it in Pox. My Rock deck would like it but paying life with 3 Pox in my deck was something I experimented with and failed horribly. The lifeloss in Smallpox is more bearable.

Saying it's better than Duress is a stretch. Thoughtseize is Duress with 2 life payment to hit creatures. If we have problems with creatures, discard shouldn't be our route.

[OmniStrata]

Difficulty to say. Some cards are autowin vs some decks but does nothing against others. You can divide the lock pieces of Pox in two types:

General scope: (MD strategy)
-Nether Void
-Trinisphere (actual meta)

Specific scope (usually on SB)
-Contamination
-Tainted Aether
-The Abyss
-Braids, Cabal Minion
-Chains of Mephistopheles
-Lethal Vapors
-Word of Waste

My personal best are:
-trinisphere
-chains of mephistopheles

CHAINS! Ah if only there was a budget replacement for it. Lethal Vapors... LoL :laugh: I'm reminded of Pillar Tombs of Aku. I'd run more goofy like Koskun Falls if I had more creatures.

[zenitramleirdag]

since someone brought up painful quandary, a possibly powerful lockpiece, albeit on the fringe in the pox archtype..may i suggest desolation? i concede it would require a lot of tweaking and would be anti-synergistic with one of best our win-cons(cursed scroll), but it would totally wreck the opponents mana base, especially decks that run brainstorms, ponders, etc..i feel bloodghast would shine in such a build..maybe with a little help from dakmor salvage, crucible of worlds, etc.
i apologize if this may seem a lousy idea..

[OmniStrata]

since someone brought up painful quandary, a possibly powerful lockpiece, albeit on the fringe in the pox archtype..may i suggest desolation? i concede it would require a lot of tweaking and would be anti-synergistic with one of best our win-cons(cursed scroll), but it would totally wreck the opponents mana base, especially decks that run brainstorms, ponders, etc..i feel bloodghast would shine in such a build..maybe with a little help from dakmor salvage, crucible of worlds, etc.
i apologize if this may seem a lousy idea..

I ran Desolation main decked a long time ago using Phyrexian Totem as a mana supplement to keep me afloat and keep playing. One of my friends mentioned a joke regarding Winter Orb so I stuck that in alongside and then the deck started to feel like stasis. Crucible of Worlds helps a ton. Artifact mana sources will hurt if your enemy plays them but it worked well vs. decks that needed to tap lands. Just have to increase your creature kill spells to stop the little ones that get through.

[beez]

since someone brought up painful quandary, a possibly powerful lockpiece, albeit on the fringe in the pox archtype..may i suggest desolation? i concede it would require a lot of tweaking and would be anti-synergistic with one of best our win-cons(cursed scroll), but it would totally wreck the opponents mana base, especially decks that run brainstorms, ponders, etc..i feel bloodghast would shine in such a build..maybe with a little help from dakmor salvage, crucible of worlds, etc.
i apologize if this may seem a lousy idea..

You know, that's a pretty interesting idea. I do run two Crucibles and I have been wondering how to get more milage out of Sinkhole.

[zenitramleirdag]

i tried it before using mox diamonds, dakmor salvages and crucible of worlds and it seemed to have worked well, but i need to playtest it more because i only tried it against a handful of decks..it hurts decks that uses top, cantrips, etc..
i had to change my threat suit though because it becomes painful to use ones that require an activation cost(cursed scroll)..instead i had to rely on recurring threats(bloodghast)..

with a trinisphere in play, it becomes a lock that is very hard to get out from..

[Hardcore]

I tried Desolation once and found it is necessary to put pressure on your opponent. Otherwise they will just sit and play land after land, negating the purpose of it all. Recursion is one way to do it, but it suffer from graveyard hate game two and three.
Black vise would have been a perfect compliment.

[zenitramleirdag]

@hardcore
if you're not running liliana and hymn..then yes, black vise might be good with it..assuming its legal..

[D0LPHY]

Saying it's better than Duress is a stretch. Thoughtseize is Duress with 2 life payment to hit creatures. If we have problems with creatures, discard shouldn't be our route.

Thoughtseize is worlds better than Duress. The 2 life is a small price to pay to practically guarantee your spell will never miss. We need 1-mana discard maindeck to be able to survive in a format with TES, Show and Tell, etc. At the same time, the ability to hit creatures minimizes our dead draws game 1. (Try running Duress against Goblins.) While discard isn't the best way to combat creatures, it still helps, and we can't afford to run stuff like Innocent Blood maindeck, where it's a dead draw against non-creature decks. Besides, Thoughtseize can hit any creature, whereas allowing them to hit the table means having to diversify our answers (Abrupt Decay can't hit Geist of Saint Traft, Cursed Scroll can't hit Tarmogoyf, and Smallpox can't hit any fatty once your opponent pads out their board). Inquisition of Kozilek is similarly unplayable because it can't hit Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Batterskull.

Additionally, the life loss is really irrelevant; success hinges on stabilizing (read: immobilizing the opponent). If you think the 2 life off of Thoughtseize is bad, you should try playing Sylvan Library. I frequently find myself under 8 life before my opponent lands a threat (and I usually win those games).

[Hardcore]

+1

[Hardcore]

Karsten Kötters latest article discussed the concept of WYW; knowing what makes you win.
I asked a friend to make a quick analysis of my deck because I found hard to do that myself. He concluded it was a resource denial deck, which was no surprise actually, but his comparison to Delver decks was.

[OmniStrata]

While discard isn't the best way to combat creatures, it still helps, and we can't afford to run stuff like Innocent Blood maindeck, where it's a dead draw against non-creature decks.Inquisition of Kozilek is similarly unplayable because it can't hit Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Batterskull.

Additionally, the life loss is really irrelevant; success hinges on stabilizing (read: immobilizing the opponent). If you think the 2 life off of Thoughtseize is bad, you should try playing Sylvan Library. I frequently find myself under 8 life before my opponent lands a threat (and I usually win those games).

I don't know what meta you're playing in, but Innocent Blood should never be dead. You're in a combo non-creature meta? I didn't think those existed, with Nimble Mongoose slapping my face everywhere I go. There's no way in hell a Pox deck should be without at least 2-3 Innocent Bloods until after sideboard. It's most known weaknesses are aggro and GY decks. They simply sac their weakest creature. Spamming more sacrifice spells is better than discard. Top deck a discard, if their hand is empty, you're dead. Top deck Innocent Blood, they don't have a creature to kill, you're winning most likely... :tongue:

My meta has a lot of creatures and bolts electrocuting people and Thoughtseize works better in a deck without life loss effects. Pox without Innocent Blood feels as bad as Threshold without Nimble Mongoose. You just don't do it. Llanowar Elf, Goblin Lackey, and DRS decks can't get enough Innocent Blood. Inquisition can beat Goblins and losing 2 life to Thoughtseize will get you killed vs. fast aggro. I've lived and died off of 2 life differences too often to say it's irrelevant, being both a Pox and threshold pilot

[lukazlml]

I don't know what meta you're playing in, but Innocent Blood should never be dead. You're in a combo non-creature meta? I didn't think those existed, with Nimble Mongoose slapping my face everywhere I go. There's no way in hell a Pox deck should be without at least 2-3 Innocent Bloods until after sideboard. It's most known weaknesses are aggro and GY decks. They simply sac their weakest creature. Spamming more sacrifice spells is better than discard. Top deck a discard, if their hand is empty, you're dead. Top deck Innocent Blood, they don't have a creature to kill, you're winning most likely... :tongue:

My meta has a lot of creatures and bolts electrocuting people and Thoughtseize works better in a deck without life loss effects. Pox without Innocent Blood feels as bad as Threshold without Nimble Mongoose. You just don't do it. Llanowar Elf, Goblin Lackey, and DRS decks can't get enough Innocent Blood. Inquisition can beat Goblins and losing 2 life to Thoughtseize will get you killed vs. fast aggro. I've lived and died off of 2 life differences too often to say it's irrelevant, being both a Pox and threshold pilot

I totally agree with you. I've tested thoughtseize over IoK and even a split 2/2 and the 2 life loss is, without a doubt, HUGE. if you add this with fetchlands life loss(BG lists or just to filter the deck) and smallpox you are hitting yourself for at least 5 damage, 25% of your life. This percentage cannot be ignored in legacy. Stabilizng with 5 life against burn decks and even agroo decks its not "stabilize" in fact, since you can get in reach of a lot of 1cc threats. Why bother with Jace and Batterskull If you can deal with their hands via Hymn to Tourach and lower their lands with Sinkholes, Wastelands and Smallpox. I've played against UWR, Stoneblades a lot and most of the times, when they need to choose what to discard (via liliana or smallpox) they choose exactly these threats (Jace, Batterskull), since their don't have enough mana to cast it or don't have an active Stoneforge to put it on play..

Regarding Innocent Blood, for me ther is no discussion. IB is a must in a Pox deck. Its a 1cc removal for all the creatures in the actual metagame. A t1 innocent blood is huge against DRS, Lackey, Heritage, Delver. If you can keep the creatures count on the opp table in a small number ( wich is easy via smallpox, discards, land destruction,liliana, cursed scroll) your draw in IB will never be in vain. Of course, in a heavy combo meta you just swapped them for better hate in the SB.

When I moved to BG Pox build first I replaced 4 IB with 3 Abrupt, but i've missed so much IB that I have to found place for 2 in the MD. (Now I'm running 3 AD / 2 IB)

[zenitramleirdag]

i agree..

about the only time they failed me was when i got beat down to death by an opponent who only has 2 lands in play(an island an a mutavault) while i was staring at the three copies of innocent bloods in hand :frown: but i think i was just unlucky because i've neither drawn into any sinkholes or smallpoxes to kill it nor did i see any mishra's factories' to block them..

i've sometimes tried replacing a couple innocent bloods with smothers and diabolic edicts but with all your "poxing" (especially if you're running BIG POX) and all the taxing counters(daze, spell pierce) running around; the one mana difference really makes a huge difference..

i've seen other mono-black lists that ran only 2 but personally i wouldn't go below 3..i used to run 4 but i replaced one of them with spinning darkness and its been serving me very well so far..

the only time i would run less than three is when i'm running tombstalkers, because i've found myself in awkward situation in the past where they got stuck in my hand because i have the demon in play..if i were to run tombstalker again, i would probably go between a 2-2 split between innocent blood and smother..and remove the spinning darkness maindeck because of its anti-synergy with the stalkers..

i can see why the B/g version can afford to run only 2 copies of it since it has access to abrupt decay..but in mono black, i feel 3 is the right number(i'm currently not running tombstalker)..

[beez]

I like to use 1 Thoughtseize in addition to the 4 Inquisition when I can fit it in, but I wouldn't go for more than 2 of them even if you were to repace an Inquisition for another one.

[D0LPHY]

I don't know what meta you're playing in, but Innocent Blood should never be dead. ... There's no way in hell a Pox deck should be without at least 2-3 Innocent Bloods until after sideboard.

Regarding Innocent Blood, for me there is no discussion. IB is a must in a Pox deck.

I should have clarified. Innocent Blood is a fantastic card, and a cornerstone of mono-black Pox, but it has always been a brick against combo, and its one-sidedness is symptomatic of mono-black Pox's problems in general. I'm not arguing that Thoughtseize should take the place of Innocent Blood, but rather should take the place of Duress, since being able to hit creatures with discard (especially enablers like Deathrite Shaman, Goblin Lackey, Stoneforge Mystic, etc.) reduces the need for cards like Innocent Blood. Once you splash green, Abrupt Decay rapidly outclasses Innocent Blood; it's much more versatile, and is even less likely to be a 'dead draw'. Dividing your removal suite between targeted removal and 'edict' effects, combined with library manipulation, allows you to have the "right" removal for each situation ('edicts' against shroud creatures; Decay against one big creature surrounded by little ones). With regard to Thoughtseize being a dead draw late-game, that is simply the nature of discard. It's unfortunate, but we need 1cc discard to combat combo. Also, Inquisition of Kozilek is weak not merely because of Jace and Batterskull (those are merely the most glaring examples). It also can't grab Tendrils of Agony, Ad Nauseam, Dream Halls, Omniscience, Enter the Infinite, Empty the Warrens, Time Spiral, Bloodbraid Elf, Goblin Ringleader, Siege-Gang Commander, Natural Order, or Sneak Attack (a big problem for us), among other bombs.

Of course, these considerations are meta-game dependent, and if your meta-game favours creatures, run Innocent Blood. For reference, the following decks make Innocent Blood a dead draw: Omni-tell, A.N.T., T.E.S., High Tide, Belcher, Dredge (usually), U/W Miracles (usually), Pox (!), and Lands, not to mention anyone who resolves Lingering Souls. I'd be loathe to run Innocent Blood or cards like it maindeck unless absolutely necessary given the prevalence of the first two decks in today's metagame. Besides, against Tribal- and Aggro-heavy metas, why not run Ensnaring Bridge or Infest? 4 Smallpox and 4 Liliana are enough sac-effects.

[Polish Tamales]

It's been a while since I checked in. Thanks for the feed back guys, much appreciated! :smile:

As for the discussion here, have you guys tried main decking Darkblast + Infest in addition to Innocent Blood (mono B lists)? It seems to help out a lot, especially with all these quasi Esper/Deathblade lists. I've had some success, but obviously luck plays in the top deck game, so I can't say for sure without someone else to help test with me. Here's the updated list since I last asked for some revision help:

4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nether Spirit
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Dark Ritual
1 Darkblast
1 Entomb
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Infest
3 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal (Deals with Soul Tokens, Snapcasters, Bobs, Cliques, Pyromancers, etc G1)
1 Raven's Crime
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 The Rack
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Mishra's Factory
11 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Dystopia
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Zuran Orb
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb

As for Thougthseize vs. IoK, it really comes down to whether or not you're expecting to see bolts or direct damage options across the other table. I don't have problems against UWR Miracles and other similar control/combo lists, but against RUG, I'd rather stick with IoK.

[Chatto]

I was browsing and found this Pox-list going top16 at SCG Cincinnati

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11672

List looks solid, but what i really liked was the splash of green WITHOUT Life from the Loam.

[zenitramleirdag]

i would like to understand his thought process on the singleton mox diamond..i hope someone can locate and coax him into explaining it in this forum..its an interesting choice, though i'm sure it will raise a lot of eyebrows..

[OmniStrata]

Also, Inquisition of Kozilek is weak not merely because of Jace and Batterskull (those are merely the most glaring examples). It also can't grab Tendrils of Agony, Ad Nauseum, Dream Halls, Omniscience, Enter the Infinite, Empty the Warrens, Time Spiral, Bloodbraid Elf, Goblin Ringleader, Siege-Gang Commander, Natural Order, or Sneak Attack (a big problem for us), among other bombs.

4 Smallpox and 4 Liliana are enough sac-effects.

In its defense, it does grab any Rituals, Burning Wish, Show and Tell, any non-land mana ramp, Goblin Lackey, Aether Vial, and any Counterspell. Force of Will got you down? Hymn to Tourach loves it. Every win card you've mentioned needs to be cheated into play using a 1-3 cmc spell and THAT'S where Inquisition lives.

You can NEVER have too many sac-effects vs. Metas with Tarmogoyf! :tongue: Though Reid Duke's explanation of why a good Legacy deck shouldn't have more than 5 cards dealing only with creatures is sound. I too run 3 Innocent Blood and 1 Spinning Darkness as my only cards in my whole deck that only deals with creatures. My game 1 vs. combo isn't auto-lose cause a ton of my cards are relevant. That and if you're only fighting people with 100% turn 1 kill combo decks, I'd have quit playing magic entirely. Turn 1 Dark Ritual + Inquisition + Hymn to Tourach happens more often than raw numbers would suggest. Personally, vs. combo, I'd go turn 1 Liliana first then Hymn them turn 2. You'd tear their hand down 4 cards if on the play which no combo deck can realistically recover from.

Again, if they go off turn 1 all the time, we're non-FoW decks, there's nothing to discuss sadly... :frown: But the nature of MtG is that those decks don't exist. There's a reason Threshold is the DtB forever and not Belcher or LED Dredge...

[Chatto]

@ zenitramleirdag: I was thinking the same thing,it just looks a little bit... random. Same goes for Barren Moore and Tabernacle: without LotL it seems a bit little less powerful. I really would like to read his report and explanation for some of his choises. Either way, congrats with his finish!

About the discussion Seize vs all other 1-cmc: I think it really shines in a meta where you really want to grab high cmc-cards and you have a way to get some life back. To put it blankly, it's just a matter of preference and how you're meta looks like. I tried a build with 4 IoK and 3 Seize, without Hymn. It worked out really well, but I missed the possibility of hitting lands with Hymn.

I think that in the current meta OmniStrata is right and IoK does almost everything without the lifeloss.

[D0LPHY]

In its defense, it does grab any Rituals, Burning Wish, Show and Tell, any non-land mana ramp, Goblin Lackey, Aether Vial, and any Counterspell. Force of Will got you down? Hymn to Tourach loves it. Every win card you've mentioned needs to be cheated into play using a 1-3 cmc spell and THAT'S where Inquisition lives.
Good point. Inquisition is probably better than I give it credit for. I've been burned too many times by being unable to hit the cards that really matter. I also dislike the fact that an Omni-tell pilot (for example) can Brainstorm in such a way as to leave no targets for Inquisition, essentially blanking it. Thoughtseize, as long as it resolves, never fails to disrupt. Your remark that threshold (I assume you mean RUG Delver?) is forever the deck to beat puzzles me. I feel like RUG Delver has lost most of its share in the format to midrange/other tempo strategies. I would certainly put Shardless BUG, Deathblade, Omni-tell, ANT, and probably UWR Delver before it in terms of representation in the field. Additionally, I've always found the matchup strongly favourable for Pox. What are your thoughts?


You can NEVER have too many sac-effects vs. Metas with Tarmogoyf! :tongue: Though Reid Duke's explanation of why a good Legacy deck shouldn't have more than 5 cards dealing only with creatures is sound. I too run 3 Innocent Blood and 1 Spinning Darkness as my only cards in my whole deck that only deals with creatures.
Having too many sac-effects against a 'Goyf guarded by smaller creatures is exactly the problem. Abrupt Decay handles Tarmogoyf no matter what the context. I realize the green splash is a big change, but I really feel like anyone who hasn't thoroughly tested it should. Don't net-deck a Loam-Pox build, just switch out Innocent Bloods for Abrupt Decays, squeeze in some Sylvan Libraries (I recommend 3), and adjust the manabase accordingly. Once you've had Abrupt Decay at your disposal, you'll never look back.


[David Nolan's G/B Pox list]

List looks solid, but what i really liked was the splash of green WITHOUT Life from the Loam.

Chatto, I share your sentiment that splashing green shouldn't always entail running Life from the Loam. However, this list runs 2.

[Chatto]

Chatto, I share your sentiment that splashing green shouldn't always entail running Life from the Loam. However, this list runs 2.

You are so right, i wasn't paying good attention... Stupid me :rolleyes:... Still, I advocate splashing green without LftL

[OmniStrata]

Your remark that threshold (I assume you mean RUG Delver?) is forever the deck to beat puzzles me. I feel like RUG Delver has lost most of its share in the format to midrange/other tempo strategies. I would certainly put Shardless BUG, Deathblade, Omni-tell, ANT, and probably UWR Delver before it in terms of representation in the field. Additionally, I've always found the matchup strongly favourable for Pox. What are your thoughts?

Having too many sac-effects against a 'Goyf guarded by smaller creatures is exactly the problem. Abrupt Decay handles Tarmogoyf no matter what the context. I realize the green splash is a big change, but I really feel like anyone who hasn't thoroughly tested it should. Don't net-deck a Loam-Pox build, just switch out Innocent Bloods for Abrupt Decays, squeeze in some Sylvan Libraries (I recommend 3), and adjust the manabase accordingly. Once you've had Abrupt Decay at your disposal, you'll never look back.


RUG Delver has always been in the DtB forums and always makes it to Top 8 in larger tournaments at least once. If you look at how it's built, it makes sense since it just runs the best cards in Legacy. RUG Delver Threshold runs the best cards in its colors and each individual card is bone breaking by themselves. Thankfully, as a Pox player, that means we only need to hit a few resources at a time. Most decks I fight view efficiency as needing less land, less creatures to win, and lesser hand sizes. I think that works since free spells and low cmc power hitters are totally overpowered.

Additionally, I used to run Loam Pox. Then I took a Nimble Mongoose and Mother of Runes to the knees. Abrupt Decay for me was used more for killing things like Pithing Needle, Counterbalance, Vial, and other enchantments/artifacts. Unless I'm fighting something very strange like Aether Vial Zoo :tongue: Cursed Scroll will zap sac fodder and I will hit the Goyf. Then of course, there's Perish, which is auto win usually in the face of fast Goyf hordes.

After a while, I realized that Pox's inability to deal with Artifacts and Enchantments isn't much of a game breaker and it's impossible for me to find perfect consistency with a Splashed Pox. That and it'd raise my deck budget to an insane degree and being almost totally immune to Wastelands is a gigantic bonus in developed greedy mana metas. Loving my 12 Snow-covered Swamps mana base.

I just got a Lifebane Zombie from the Magic Celebration free draft and I gotta say... HOLY SHAT! This sideboarded card rocks decks that get Sinkholed turn two and hits really hard. The fact that it does something after being cast is huge. Black exile? really? :cool: If only it had flash...

[Hardcore]

Snowcovered lands, et tu Brute?:cool:



How about this for zombie deck?


4 Geralf's messenger
4 Gravecrawler
4 lifebane zombie
4 gangrenous zombies
4 stillmoon cavalier
4 bloodghast
2 unearth
4 smallpox
4 hymn to Tourach
4 dark Ritual
3 pox
3 darkblast

20 snow-covered swamp

[zenitramleirdag]

withering wisps would be cool(no pun intended) in an all-snow-covered swamps theme..in flavor at least..

[Hardcore]

I would have mentioned it if I had not forgotten the name...

[zenitramleirdag]

i know, took me about a minute to remember the name of the card before i typed that post.. :wink:

[hugh4893]

I've been trying to get back into magic for awhile and it took me a few months to decide what i wanted to build.
I decided on pox because it's budget, it's rogue, and it has a lot of capability for manipulation the main deck depending on the meta.

After knocking cards back and forth with my buddy, we decided on a split control method with land destruction and discard.
Let me know what you think of this deck list: (I call the deck Malevolent Mishra (or M&M's) because all it's win conditions are mishra's creations)

Mainboard:

4x Ankh of Mishra
4x Blight
4x Dark Ritual
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Mishra's Factory
4x Raven's Crime
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
11x Swamp
4x The Rack
2x trinisphere
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x ghost quarter

Sideboard:
2x duress
3x Dystopia
3x Geth's Verdict
3x Infest
4x Leyline of the Void


Reasoning behind certain choices:

Win conditions and interactions:

ankh of mishra:
This is a win condition as much as its a control. if it's out, take 2 from laying a land, it makes people receive 5 damage from fetching a land, or stifling decisions by holding a land.
This is also why I am running Ghost Quarter , because i can then either have them take 2 from ankh if they search for a basic, or in legacy very few decks have many basics if any, so it's pretty much a wasteland.
Blight and Sinkhole alongside ghost to do land destruction.

The Rack:
This is good all depending on the the discard that's drawn.
I prefer this over the creature run pox win conditions(this deck doesn't run creatures besides mishra's factory) because it's continuous, it's hard to get rid of, and it makes them hold cards if they don't want to get hit by rack, making it easier to get hit by more discard.

mishra's factory:
fights creatures, isn't hit by innocent blood or other creature hate that isn't instant speed, good stuff.

trinisphere:
I figured running this over liliana of the veil because it just makes the Land destruction as well as the discard just better.

Sideboard:

Dystopia against leyline of sanctity
Infest against swarm/tribal decks
Geth's Verdict for more creature hate
Duress for more discard against combo decks
Leyline of the void against dredge/reanimator

[D0LPHY]

I've been trying to get back into magic for awhile and it took me a few months to decide what i wanted to build.
I decided on pox because it's budget, it's rogue, and it has a lot of capability for manipulation the main deck depending on the meta.

... Let me know what you think of this deck list:

Mainboard:

4x Ankh of Mishra
4x Blight
4x Dark Ritual
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Mishra's Factory
4x Raven's Crime
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
11x Swamp
4x The Rack
2x trinisphere
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x ghost quarter

Sideboard:
2x duress
3x Dystopia
3x Geth's Verdict
3x Infest
4x Leyline of the Void



I hate to be that guy, but Pox is not budget. This is one of the most common misconceptions about the deck, and it arises from the fact that Pox is such a rogue presence in the format that new/potential Pox players simply don't have enough lists to compare to get a sense of what is viable. Our share in the metagame is extremely small, so the few occasions on which Pox has done well are typically a combination of luck, play-skill and the rogue factor rather than a particular list's merits. Additionally, mono-black Pox is an anachronism, and I can't recommend opting to play a second-rate version of an already 'rogue' deck.

Let alone the fact that you need to be running green for Abrupt Decay (and will need 4 Bayou and 4+ fetchlands), a playable mono-black list requires at minimum a playset of each Wasteland, Liliana of the Veil, Sinkhole, and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, not to mention some number of Crucible of Worlds, Sensei's Divining Top, Nether Void (I'd run 2), Thoughtseize, etc. Again, Pox is a shaky enough archetype as is; you'll only do yourself a disservice running a weakened version of it.

Having said all that, let's take a look at your list.

I don't think it makes much sense to run Raven's Crime without Life from the Loam, since the card is fairly unimpressive without recursion. I would max out Inquisition of Kozilek first. Run all four Factories. The card is our most resilient win condition, and its ability to block is crucial. I would also run 2 Crucible of Worlds. You're already running Ghost Quarter, and Crucible shares great synergy with Mishra's Factory. You should also consider running more lands. I run 25 (in a 61-card deck), and find that to be just enough to be able to Smallpox aggressively. Ankh of Mishra seems like a funny choice; our life total is quite sensitive, while theirs is really irrelevant until we're in a position to start winning. As with any control deck, stabilizing is more important than dealing damage. There's a reason Pox has fallen out of favour. Additionally, Blight is really bad. Sinkhole is just good enough for Legacy; you don't want to let your opponents get another use out of a land you've already spent a spell 'destroying'. The inclusion of Blight and the second Ghost Quarter, as well as the low land-count, are plain symptoms of trying to run Pox without Wasteland. Make them your first big purchase for the deck. Trinisphere is nice, but it's no substitute for Nether Void. Trinisphere doesn't interfere with an opponent's ability to land larger threats, recur Batterskull, drop Jace at an opportune moment, etc. It's important to tax the big spells too.

I'm glad you've chosen Pox; it's a unique and enjoyable deck. Start playing what you've got, get hooked, and start saving!

[Hardcore]

I am of another opinion on most what D0LPH says. I will not, however, say much on that but rather focus on the deck.

Ankh of Mishra. Wonderful card. It is not a win con however. It is a LOCK PIECE.
As such it works well with land destruction (sorry for the understatement, but I ran out of superlatives).
Since you play land before the ankh you will always be 2 life ahead of your opponent. This is a minor but important detail. Sinkhole are a must, wastelands too.
Another must is moxes and/or dark rituals.
I figure Trinisphere would work wonderfully in this deck. Trying to reach three mana to play spells with an Ankh in play, through the LD, will be hard.

Given the ankh plan the win cons need be recurring creatures and something that does not rely on the graveyard (so as to have a back up plan. Phyrexian totem perhaps?)

[Hardcore]

A.N.K.H.

This is just a draft:wink:


1 Nether Spirit
1 Akuta, Born of Ash

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox

4 Dark Ritual

4 Ankh of Mishra
4 Trinisphere
3 Mox Diamond
2 Phyrexian Totem

11 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

[zenitramleirdag]

i don't think 19 lands can accomodate 3 mox diamonds, technically, there's only 15 lands in that build because most players don't count the wastelands as lands but rather as LD spells..to begin with, i'm not sure if you even need the diamonds since that list also runs rituals..i would drop the diamonds altogether and replace them with mishra's factories..

ankh of mishra is a cute and interesting choice and could probably win you a few games but its not by any means the most optimal pick for that slot..if its continuous source of damage you want, i'd look into cursed scrolls..there's a reason that almost all competitive pox lists run it..

trinisphere is a good replacement for nether void, its just not as good..but can help against a lot of decks..i just wouldn't advise running 4..

phyrexian totem used to be good, but i'd rather have that spot for singleton crucible of worlds and free up a flex spot..

i apologize if i seem to be leading the deck to a different direction..i do see what you're going for here with the ankhs and trinispheres to lock the opponent out of the game..and use the diamonds and the the totems to offset it..


these are just my 2-cents..

[zenitramleirdag]

i do however feel intrigued with the singleton Akuta, Born of Ash..

[Hardcore]

As i noted it is just a draft. Untested, unplayed, and goldfish not well at all:laugh:
However, I have used Ankhs to great effect over a year back in a traditional pox build. My hapless opponent ran zoo, but it did him no good.

I would like to have more threats in it, true. But no big deal. The important things is Trinisphere + Ankh. The day I put it together I would fine tune it of course. For example, I think liliana should be in it the list.

[theillest]

I hate to be that guy... +1 for this whole post. Solid advice

[hugh4893]

As i noted it is just a draft. Untested, unplayed, and goldfish not well at all:laugh:
However, I have used Ankhs to great effect over a year back in a traditional pox build. My hapless opponent ran zoo, but it did him no good.

I would like to have more threats in it, true. But no big deal. The important things is Trinisphere + Ankh. The day I put it together I would fine tune it of course. For example, I think liliana should be in it the list.

Thankyou. I think anhk does work in the legacy meta with everyone running fetches and dual lands. Trinisphere and land destruction with ankh just work, it's just a really odd multiple condition control deck with the pox discard in the mix, but it's so off-handed the opponent will be caught off guard and you may win against the meta with it.

I am still fine tuning my list above, but i'm glad someone see's the combination and what it can mean for unsuspecting opponents expecting to just fetch for all their 3 colors they need when they take 5 damage from fetching, they can't cast anything from trinisphere, and you kill their lands with sinkholes and other LD to lock them out when you swing away with mishra's. then you throw discard in the mix and any strategy will have a hard time being resilient.

[Dwell]

You are so right, i wasn't paying good attention... Stupid me :rolleyes:... Still, I advocate splashing green without LftL


Guys, guys.... try out sylvan library in a GB build. It's testing very well for me.

[beez]

I have been messing around with this list for awhile and am very happy with it so far. The Chalice is permanent based hate that often shuts down significant portions of decks. It also makes Loaming a little more comfortable when it is out, as a majority of commonly used GY hate is 1cmc. In addition, Chalice helps in some combo matchups as you can get it out for zero against LED. Time will tell if the sometimes less explosive turns 1 and 2 will be the downfall of it, but turn one sinkholes,hymns and smallpoxes do occasionally happen. A Chalice also keeps you from having to worry about every Delver, Mongoose, Deathrite Shaman, Brainstorm, Ponder etc that opponent will topdraw during topdeck war. For the most part it seems to work well.

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond

1 Nether Spirit
1 Bloodghast

2 Sylvan Library

1 Syphon Life
4 Life from the Loam
4 Lilliana of the Veil
2 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay

24 lands
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Urborg,Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cabal Pit
1 Barren Moor
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Side
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Krosan Grip
4 Trinisphere
3 Engineered Plague

[D0LPHY]

I have been messing around with this list for awhile and am very happy with it so far...

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond

1 Nether Spirit
1 Bloodghast

2 Sylvan Library

1 Syphon Life
4 Life from the Loam
4 Lilliana of the Veil
2 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay

24 lands
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Urborg,Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cabal Pit
1 Barren Moor
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Side
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Krosan Grip
4 Trinisphere
3 Engineered Plague

Pox is really bad, and I feel it has no place in modern incarnations of the deck. You lose too much life against aggro decks (especially those with burn spells), and you usually lose far more lands than your opponent (given that you've already been attacking their lands). You need to be using your life for Sylvan Library, if anything. I would up your Sylvans to 3. Given that you're using Chalice of the Void (and thus lack 1 cmc disruption), run the fourth Mox Diamond. I do, and Mox Diamond is one of the cards I most want to see in my opening hand. How's your combo matchup? I would want at least one Nether Void in the main (or possibly Trinisphere). I'm surprised to see 4 Life from the Loam. Overall, nice list.

[beez]

My thought is, if I am going to splash green and open myself up more to Stifle, Wasteland, Blood Moon, Price of Progress etc, I want to Loam. Abrupt Decay is great, and Sylvan Library is a little better than Sensei's Divining Top, but those two alone don't elevate the deck enough to open up more of those risks than mono black. And I actually like Crucible of Worlds better than Loam for Wastelock and Factory recursion if the deck doesn't have other graveyard Shenanigans. It happens every turn and you don't have to dredge instead of draw or spend two mana to recur the lands. With Loam, Wastelock you will end up dredging a bit, so the Chalices help protect that. The advantage is that with Loam it can get very out of hand for the opponent if they do not have an answer very soon, and I find this build is best going after land destruction in the most devastating way possible. Queerios has similar build a few pages back the Loam engine can handle a lot of Big Poxing. I still took two out for the long game boost of two Libraries though.

I think Nether Void is better with Crucible because you need 5 mana out to even Loam some lands back, which may affect poxing choices. With 5 lands you are probably doing OK anyway. Tabernacle would be nice though.

I do need to test combo more, but Chalice helps against a lot of zero and 1 cm early threats and cantrips. The Trinispheres and land destruction hopefully repress them enough even if there is a Leyline of Sanctity out, which can be a problem with discard answers to combo. If they side Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void to avoid Chalice then you can side in Ratchet Bomb and Krosan Grip.

[hugh4893]

I'm glad you've chosen Pox; it's a unique and enjoyable deck. Start playing what you've got, get hooked, and start saving!

yeah this deck list didn't do well, i'm still trying to find a means to rework the strategy though. thanks for your input.

[OmniStrata]

I hate to be that guy, but Pox is not budget.

" Variant Three - Budget

(Mana)
18 Swamp
2 Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Dark Ritual

(1cc Disruption)
4 Duress
4 Innocent Blood
2 Cabal Therapy/Funeral Charm

(2cc Disruption)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
2 Powder Keg

(3cc Disruption)
4 Pox
2 Infest

(Win Conditions)
3 Nether Spirit
3 Phyrexian Totem

The only two cards that need be removed in order to budgetize the deck are Wastelands and Sinkholes. The loss of Wastelands while generally bad, actually makes the deck stronger in certain matchups. "

From the old thread. Yes it's outdated, however, to keep the deck budget, don't splash, and pick the right cards. Though I admit, I'm running a currently priced $500 version of the deck. Though a while back, the cards were cheaper.

Technically speaking, in this forum section, everyone just assumes you have money and should blast it on cards that usually gain value over time and are investments both for your $ future and for your gaming fun in general. My deck costs about half my friend's Landstill deck and the win ratio is about 50%, but good God how slow the games are lol.

Aside from Liliana of the Veil, I think Pox can be run on a budget friendly wallet assuming you fight without any LD whatsoever. So for now, get LotV and fight on with what's left! :cool:

[zenitramleirdag]

i agree with the above post..
mono black discard pox is one of my all time favorite budget legacy decks..
its cheap but has the tools to beat a lot of decks in today's meta..

[beez]

For a reasonably competitive budget Pox it would be nice to have Urborg although they are not the cheapest and are usually only in Pox, but I assume that if you want to run 4 Mishras you should have a couple. The rest is pretty budgety.

4 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozeliek
4 Innocent Blood
2 Spinning Darkness
2 Raven's Crime

4 The Rack

1 Nether Spirit
2 Bloodghast
1 Necroplasm

2 Dakmore Salvage
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
16 Swamp

[D0LPHY]

Abrupt Decay is great, and Sylvan Library is a little better than Sensei's Divining Top, but those two alone don't elevate the deck enough to open up more of those risks than mono black.

To each their own, but I heartily disagree; I think they are entirely worth splashing for on their own. (Also, Sylvan Library is amazing. It's my suspicion that most people play Library like Mirri's Guile and fail to see why it is worth the splash over SDT. The turn after you play Sylvan Library, unless your opponent is playing Burn or you have a fetchland, it is basically always correct to pay 8 life. The card advantage, combined with accelerants like Mox Diamond and Dark Ritual, will often create an insurmountable obstacle for your opponent.)


I actually like Crucible of Worlds better than Loam for Wastelock and Factory recursion if the deck doesn't have other graveyard Shenanigans. It happens every turn and you don't have to dredge instead of draw or spend two mana to recur the lands. With Loam, Wastelock you will end up dredging a bit, so the Chalices help protect that. (...) The Loam engine can handle a lot of Big Poxing. I still took two out for the long game boost of two Libraries though. I think Nether Void is better with Crucible because you need 5 mana out to even Loam some lands back, which may affect poxing choices. (...) I do need to test combo more, but Chalice helps against a lot of zero and 1 cm early threats and cantrips. The Trinispheres and land destruction hopefully repress them enough even if there is a Leyline of Sanctity out, which can be a problem with discard answers to combo. If they side Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void to avoid Chalice then you can side in Ratchet Bomb and Krosan Grip.

Good points. You make strong arguments for a lot of cards I wouldn't play, but that might only be because I don't play Loam. (Loaming through Nether Void does blow.) I still think big Pox is really clunky. I also think that given how invested in Chalice you are, you should really consider the fourth Mox and 25th land (Tabernacle!).


[Budget mono-black list]
From the old thread. Yes it's outdated, however, to keep the deck budget, don't splash, and pick the right cards. (...) Technically speaking, in this forum section, everyone just assumes you have money and should blast it on cards that usually gain value over time and are investments both for your $ future and for your gaming fun in general. (...) Aside from Liliana of the Veil, I think Pox can be run on a budget friendly wallet assuming you fight without any LD whatsoever.
I agree with the above post. Mono black discard pox is one of my all time favorite budget legacy decks. its cheap but has the tools to beat a lot of decks in today's meta.

I think there are two issues here. The first is the idea (often espoused on this thread) that one can play "discard" Pox or "land destruction" Pox. I believe this is a mistake. Pox is by definition a deck that attacks both mana and cards in hand (as well as board position, hence my endorsement of Abrupt Decay). It requires heavy investments in both strategic axes to even be a viable, 'tier 2' deck. How does a "discard" deck beat Dredge? Aggro-Loam? Likewise, a deck exclusively focused on its opponent's manabase will never have game against storm-combo, and probably not against Show and Tell decks either. Hell, Aether Vial trumps bare LD any day. Pox is about exploiting the synergy between Black's greatest assets: mana-denial, discard, and symmetrical creature sacrifice- and tax-effects. We avoid running creatures (at least in the traditional sense) so that we can play Smallpox and the like with little inconvenience to ourselves. We run a lot of land and often run recursion so that we can pay for our own tax effects (and Smallpoxes) while locking our opponents out of the game. Most importantly, we combine discard and land destruction to prevent our opponents from making progress in the game-state. Where discard would fail against top-decks and land destruction would fail against low mana curves, together they can knock an opponent off balance early and keep them off balance for long enough to win.

The second problem is that while budgeting for Legacy is always a legitimate aspiration, creating 'budget' (read: subpar) versions of non-budget archetypes is a waste of effort. Pox is not so strong a deck that even budget versions are viable. If you want to save cash, build an archetype that is cheap by nature (Belcher, Affinity, Burn, etc.); don't neuter an expensive one. While some expensive card choices are perfectly debatable (i.e. Tabernacle), others are simply not (4 Wasteland, 4 Liliana). As much as you may tailor your list to fit your finances, the purpose of this thread is to develop our archetype to be the best it can, not the cheapest it can while being vaguely playable. Ultimately, if money is an issue, you have to decide what's more important: winning, or playing Pox. A competitive player will choose an archetype he or she can afford and build it to the nines, rather than building a cheap facsimile of a deck that is out of reach.

I don't mean to come off as a jerk, I just think most of the disagreement on these topics comes from a difference in people's reasons for playing the deck. I love Pox's play-style as much as the next [sadist magic player], but I wouldn't play it if I didn't think it was competitive. That, to me is the most important factor in any list.

[beez]

Yeah, I don't know if over the long run the Chalice will work out. I figure there is a reason it is not generally used in Pox. But I thought it held some promise with Loam so I think it deserves some more play against a wide variety of decks before I can judge how well it really works or not.

I do agree that the point of Pox is to attack a lot of resources at once and gain card advantage by killing at least 3 cards with 1. The problem, obviously is that we lose our own as well. The key to Pox, I believe, is to break this symmetry. An obvious way is graveyard recursion but can be open to a lot of hate. The problem with Sinkhole/Nether Void is that the advantage of resources we have over the opponent and even getting under Void in the first place for us as well is a razor thin margin of playing a few more lands than an opponent and maybe a couple sinkholes we draw. Sometimes they just Brainstorm into it faster than us. That is why an opportunistic Crucible or Loam is a big help, but as was said before, Loam can be fools gold. I have enough problems getting my wincons Exterpated and Extracted without even using Loam or Crucible. If I can't protect it I cant depend on it. That will be the test for that. Lilliana and Top or Library helps break the Pox symmetry in our favor for the discard portion, Using few and recurring creatures and manlands helps break the creature sac portion. And Chalice or Loam helps the land sac symmetry. Big Pox still attacks a lot for one card, so I think it still has some strategic value. The reason we can be so sado-masochistic is because we can recover from it, or at least profit from it more, otherwise your margin for how you expect to win vs how opponent can recover is too small to be very viable.

[beez]

Also, I have noticed that Life from the Loam and Sylvan Library have some really wierd and tricky interactions. It's gonna take some more practice to get comfortable with that.

[OmniStrata]

I think there are two issues here. The first is the idea (often espoused on this thread) that one can play "discard" Pox or "land destruction" Pox. I believe this is a mistake. Pox is by definition a deck that attacks both mana and cards in hand (as well as board position, hence my endorsement of Abrupt Decay). It requires heavy investments in both strategic axes to even be a viable, 'tier 2' deck. How does a "discard" deck beat Dredge? Aggro-Loam? Likewise, a deck exclusively focused on its opponent's manabase will never have game against storm-combo, and probably not against Show and Tell decks either. Hell, Aether Vial trumps bare LD any day. Pox is about exploiting the synergy between Black's greatest assets: mana-denial, discard, and symmetrical creature sacrifice- and tax-effects. We avoid running creatures (at least in the traditional sense) so that we can play Smallpox and the like with little inconvenience to ourselves. We run a lot of land and often run recursion so that we can pay for our own tax effects (and Smallpoxes) while locking our opponents out of the game. Most importantly, we combine discard and land destruction to prevent our opponents from making progress in the game-state. Where discard would fail against top-decks and land destruction would fail against low mana curves, together they can knock an opponent off balance early and keep them off balance for long enough to win.

The second problem is that while budgeting for Legacy is always a legitimate aspiration, creating 'budget' (read: subpar) versions of non-budget archetypes is a waste of effort. Pox is not so strong a deck that even budget versions are viable. If you want to save cash, build an archetype that is cheap by nature (Belcher, Affinity, Burn, etc.); don't neuter an expensive one. While some expensive card choices are perfectly debatable (i.e. Tabernacle), others are simply not (4 Wasteland, 4 Liliana). As much as you may tailor your list to fit your finances, the purpose of this thread is to develop our archetype to be the best it can, not the cheapest it can while being vaguely playable. Ultimately, if money is an issue, you have to decide what's more important: winning, or playing Pox. A competitive player will choose an archetype he or she can afford and build it to the nines, rather than building a cheap facsimile of a deck that is out of reach.

I don't mean to come off as a jerk, I just think most of the disagreement on these topics comes from a difference in people's reasons for playing the deck. I love Pox's play-style as much as the next [sadist magic player], but I wouldn't play it if I didn't think it was competitive. That, to me is the most important factor in any list.

I don't believe you come off as a jerk, however, it's been argued already in older posts that LD is considered 'unusable' in a low mana meta. Though I love my sinkholes :) You mention Dredge and Aggro Loam. Decks that don't appear in massive hordes or win at most big tournaments. Graveyard decks are big in Legacy and it is true that Discard alone doesn't cut it. I will argue that you should just run Leylines in your board and then make your discard spells the Almighty Deadly against decks that think it's ok to discard. (watch out for Madness, lol)

Technically, dependant on meta, you could replace the Sinkholes and Wasteland defaults using Cabal Pits and Smother. I lose more to the too-many-creatures situation with Pox than any other scenario. Liliana + Inquisition + Dark Ritual + Hymn to Tourach already makes fights vs. Control/Combo decks fairly simple. Since those decks are creature light usually, old fashioned Duress can be added for more auto-win.

Pox's design will easily dominate Control/Combo and feels only weak vs. Burn and Fast Aggro and GY based decks. With that in mind, I fashioned my Sideboard to cover Pox's weaknesses instead of enhancing its strengths. Pithing Needle and Ratchet Bomb work just fine in place of Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse in my games vs. Walkers, Enchants, and Artifacts.

Btw, boarding in Tombstalker is the ultimate curveball vs. most decks who side out their removal ^_^ And, you could just kill them before they do anything relevant with him.

[Hardcore]

The latest variants of my deck have been going in the wrong direction; I should not lose to Rug Delver; it was auto win I the past. Perhaps it is the lack of spot discard or innocent blood?
I have noticed delver decks cannot handle recurring creatures (fatties can be countered but not bolted) so more of those seem right. still, I would like a fatty. Nihilith is a bit awkward because I need to cast it early, at a time when I also want to cast disruption spells. I may go with Tombstalker, or a couple of Reanimate(!).
Weenie style with buried alive and jitte is also possible.

[OmniStrata]

The latest variants of my deck have been going in the wrong direction;

All of your deck listings have Pox trying to do something it simply isn't. Non-control. Seems to me you're trying to re-invent the wheel and be clever when in truth, Pox won't allow it. Losing to RUG Delver is SACRILEGE as a Pox player! :cry:

Discard + Land Destruction, as was discussed earlier is THE way to win in a meta that wants to run low land counts. "But decks can run on 1 land!" I will cast 3+ spells with my lands and you cast your one phucking spell... What Pox is afraid of is decks with huge land counts and graveyard recursion. Sinkhole + Wasteland or BUST in my opinion.

At this point in your Poxing research, what do you believe is now the essential Pox shell? I'm just curious.

[Hardcore]

I never consider substituting Bloodghast, smallpox, pox, darkblast or Hymn to Tourach. So those are the core I guess.

[Hardcore]

@OmniStrata,

I agree with a fellow gamers analysis: Pox is about resource denial. Some call that control, but that is merely an arbitrary classification. Resource denial OTOH is what the deck does, and answers Carsten Kötter's question; "Why I Win".
Acchieving this of course give the sense one have control of the game, but that is a mirage. Indeed, Pox have trouble keeping this state for a longer time, and lead to search for cards like nethervoid and trinisphere (which are about having permanent, rather than temporary, resource denial). Compare to Counter-top.

One can say I go for the fast winning route, rather than permanent mana denial of the trinisphere and nethervoid.
Sure, I could go the later, since they do work with landfall ability, but i prefer to go budget.
Besides, I love the challenge of making a viable deck, and learn a lot at the same time.
I guess one could liken it to surfing; trying to find a deck composition that can keep the balance and surf the tricky waves.:laugh:

[zenitramleirdag]

LD pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 liliana of the veil
4 Wasteland
4 mishra's factory
2-3 cursed scroll
1-2 nethervoids
(i didn't include the hymns because i've seen successful lists not running them, uses thoughtseize in lieu of it instead.. )


(here are the core cards of a LD pox build, here are the cards that are almost always found as a 4-of in almost every competitive LD build )



edit: in mono black LD, that is..

[zenitramleirdag]

i do however still run pox as a 1-of or a 2-of often..i'm an advocate of using the big pox..maybe not as a 4-of..

[OmniStrata]

I never consider substituting Bloodghast, smallpox, pox, darkblast or Hymn to Tourach. So those are the core I guess.

Has the fact Bloodghast can't block cost you games? It costed me games quite badly which is why I dropped it from my list. Nether Spirit, the eternal bodyguard! ^_^

I'm curious about the Darkblast. Why run Darkblast over harder hitting permanent removal like Cursed Scroll? CS can hit players and planeswalkers as well.

[zenitramleirdag]

i think hardcore's fondness for bloodghasts explains his attachment to darkblasts..

well, i can't disagree that they do work well together..

IMHO, i think neither should be played over the other but rather together..especially in rack pox when you're running ghasts..

i, however, won't run ghasts in a more prisonesque build..

[owenzzz]

I used to play pox pre-Liliana and I tried putting 3 contamination and 2 bitterblossom for the lock piece. With Nether spirit, Mishra's factory (with crucible) and bitterblossom, this will lock their lands to black. I'll try to redo the deck again.

[beez]

It seems to me that Darkblast and Bloodghast work together best in a Loam build, whilst Cursed Scroll and Haunted Plate Mail are best in mono black. Nether Spirit should be run in all Pox builds, no excuse. I haven't used Tombstalkers as much as some of you, but they seem more a fit for mono black.

[Hardcore]

Darkblast kill all toughness one and two creatures. Just cast it at upkeep, dredge, and cast it again.
This is why it is rarely countered by rug players; what would be the point? Thus it work well as Delver killer.

[beez]

You need to save for some Bayous Hardcore! Loaming into Darkblast and Bloodghast is calling your name. Just watch out for all that gravehate. Or do you find that just because you only splash dredge/GY that it isn't enough for them to bring hate? I find that foes bring in thier hate against me no matter how much or how little GY I am actually using. They fear it that much in Pox. And rightly so.

[D0LPHY]

Nether Spirit should be run in all Pox builds, no excuse.

I disagree. Nether Spirit used to be a necessity, but I think the advent of Deathrite Shaman has made it 'viable' at best. Traditionally, one or two Spirits wouldn't merit an opponent bringing in hate, but with so many decks having access to incidental graveyard hate (pre-board, no less), Nether Spirit loses its built-in evasion. The card has always been weaker to Swords to Plowshares than Mishra's Factory anyway, and I wouldn't run it outside of Loam Pox, personally. It's still good, but it is nowhere near an auto-inclusion.

Darkblast also strikes me as odd. The card has its merits, but we are the Cursed Scroll deck, and Scroll shares a synergy with other cards in the deck (Smallpox, Liliana) that Darkblast doesn't (outside of a couple graveyard cards). I think the less we rely on the graveyard, the better. All I run is 2 Crucible of Worlds, and I'm delighted when my opponent dilutes his/her deck by bringing in garbage like Rest in Peace.

[beez]

Blasphemy! lol.

[zenitramleirdag]

shawn riggin ran a list without em' and he made a good finish..i, too was surprised at first but it made sense when i realized that his reason for its un-inclusion were the ensnaring bridges..still, i probably won't run a mono-black list without it..but thats a personal preference..

[Hardcore]

Yesterday I put together a more conservative deck for the local tourney.
(No Gitaxian probes!)
This doesn't mean there were no news, of course. I had added Phyrexian Arena and Barren Moor. At first I planned use the Moors as cantrips 5-8 in a Gitaxian probe deck, but now they they just are an upgrade.
Randomness affected the results too much for me to write a report, but I made a few observations:
The arena is sick in grinding games. It helped me beat zoo and punishing jund.
Against the later I went up to 25 life points with an arena in play! :cool:

Decks that splash black have more 1cc spot discard than me, which gives them an edge. I have several options to rectify this.

Losing tempo due to lack of lands is bad. I will run a minimum of 23 black mana sources. Barren Moor will help here in mid game.

4 Nihilith
4 Bloodghast
3 Tombstalker

2 Phyrexian Arena

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox
3 Pox

3 Darkblast

4 The Rack

4 Barren Moor
2 Dakmor Salvage
17 Swamp


This build feel stable enough to tweak. It has room for another 2-3 cards. Two Thoughtseize perhaps?

[zenitramleirdag]

i think your build "justifies" the inclusion of arena more than the traditional LD version because you have a higher threat density..the LD build usually runs about 7 minimum win conditions maindeck, i've even seen list that ran only 6, the rest of the deck is devoted to disrupt or lock your opponent out of the game(nether void, trinisphere)..i believe phyrexian arena will most likely kill the LD pox pilot even before he can get the most out of the card advantage..

just be careful though, you're running 3 big poxes, that can sometimes make your life go dangerously low..and you've no way of getting rid of your arena once it becomes to painful while on play..you should consider this more since you're also thinking of maindecking 2 thoughtseizes..


i feel dark rituals can really help this deck for more explosiveness..don't worry too much about them being dead draws in the mid or late game..you have a high threat density and a low land count, i'm very sure threats will come..

[OmniStrata]

i think your build "justifies" the inclusion of arena more than the traditional LD version because you have a higher threat density..the LD build usually runs about 7 minimum win conditions maindeck, i've even seen list that ran only 6, the rest of the deck is devoted to disrupt or lock your opponent out of the game(nether void, trinisphere)..i believe phyrexian arena will most likely kill the LD pox pilot even before he can get the most out of the card advantage..

just be careful though, you're running 3 big poxes, that can sometimes make your life go dangerously low..and you've no way of getting rid of your arena once it becomes to painful while on play..you should consider this more since you're also thinking of maindecking 2 thoughtseizes..


i feel dark rituals can really help this deck for more explosiveness..don't worry too much about them being dead draws in the mid or late game..you have a high threat density and a low land count, i'm very sure threats will come..

The "Best" decks don't have catch 22s. If we want Pox to attempt to come close, the MORE unconditional cards we run the better. Nether Spirit & Liliana and Cursed Scroll are so strong in this deck archetype specifically because they don't really need help from other cards. Individually, these cards are good, but all 3 together in the same deck? Overpowered.

I had Phyrexian Arena for a while a long time ago, however getting killed by it didn't justify the extra cards. We are not a DRAW Card Advantage deck, we are a virtual card advantage deck. By running threats that kill the opponents removal, Pox gains an edge and by using Pox FX so that your enemy is losing tempo instead of us [discard Nether spirit? land with Crucible? Load up Cursed Scroll Etc.] we get more virtual advantage.

Dark Rituals are auto includes. The original reason I've read for including them is just that Pox doesn't have much to work with in the 1-2 mana range and vs. fast draw decks, we NEED the explosiveness to shut them down game one. Might as well let that combo deck WORK for its win game one instead of giving them a bye. Dark Rit, Inquisition, Hymn to Tourach? I've run Storm combo before and it does NOT want to lose 3 cards on the draw. Fast aggro decks don't want to be hit by Innocent Blood + Hymn on turn 1. And nothing causes a cringe more than Liliana turn one and they let her resolve... :laugh: If the enemy deck doesn't murder you in the first 3 turns, then sideboard them out and throw away the card disadvantage.

I do understand that Hardcore is going for a budget style Pox but I think it's a mistake to make it into an aggro deck. Just run more threats that aren't traditional creatures. The Rack, Cursed Scroll, Ankh of Mishra, Chimeric Idol, and my favorite big hitter, Phyrexian Totem would fare better in a deck with multiple Pox fx then one with creatures. That and top decking a Dark Ritual makes the Totems quite fierce vs. an empty board state.

[Teluin]

Here's my list:

1 Urborg
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Mutavault
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
10 Swamp

Total: 25

Creatures

1 Nether Spirit

Total: 1

Spells

4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
1 Nether Void
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Haunted Plate Mail
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Innocent Blood
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole

Total: 34

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spinning Darkness
3 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Plague

For what it's worth, I split Top 4 at the GPT 2 weeks ago (it later became a non-GPT because of technical difficulties *cry*). Here is a VERY barebones description of what happened due to my lack of note taking:

Round 1 Merfolk - went to 3. Pretty straightforward. Game 1 I kept a 1 black mana hand and just never drew into more in time. Games 2 and 3 I didn't and I won.

Round 2 Show & Tell - also went to 3. G3 Turn 2 he casts Show & Tell - I had sided in Ensnaring Bridge - muahaha. I have never lost to S&T with this deck.

Round 3 - Elves. Also pretty straightforward. Engineered P was pretty key in game 3.

Round 4 - ID

Round 5 - ID

Top 8

Rematch vs. Elves.

Game 1 he went to GSZ Baloth - I had made him discard it earlier haha.

Game 2 - AMAZING. T1 Tabernacle, T2 Engineered. Pretty much sealed it.

[zenitramleirdag]

i agree with a lot of things about the above post..i mainly only addressed those things assuming that hardcore insists on running his aggressive version of the deck..
i personally, wouldn't go that route if i were to take pox on a tourney..and if i were to suggest my way, i would probably change about half of its contents..

[beez]

@OmniStrata - Phyrexian Totem is strong. One of those cards that almost makes the cut but not quite. But great for budget and heavy on Big Pox decks.

[beez]

Here's my list:

1 Urborg
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Mutavault
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
10 Swamp

Total: 25

Creatures

1 Nether Spirit

Total: 1

Spells

4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
1 Nether Void
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Haunted Plate Mail
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Innocent Blood
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole

Total: 34

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spinning Darkness
3 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Plague

For what it's worth, I split Top 4 at the GPT 2 weeks ago (it later became a non-GPT because of technical difficulties *cry*). Here is a VERY barebones description of what happened due to my lack of note taking:

Round 1 Merfolk - went to 3. Pretty straightforward. Game 1 I kept a 1 black mana hand and just never drew into more in time. Games 2 and 3 I didn't and I won.

Round 2 Show & Tell - also went to 3. G3 Turn 2 he casts Show & Tell - I had sided in Ensnaring Bridge - muahaha. I have never lost to S&T with this deck.

Round 3 - Elves. Also pretty straightforward. Engineered P was pretty key in game 3.

Round 4 - ID

Round 5 - ID

Top 8

Rematch vs. Elves.

Game 1 he went to GSZ Baloth - I had made him discard it earlier haha.

Game 2 - AMAZING. T1 Tabernacle, T2 Engineered. Pretty much sealed it.

That list is very similar to my mono-black list. Except I cant swing the Tabernacle. I like having two tops and two Crucibles. I am experimenting with Mox Diamond instead of Ritual. Sylvan Library for Top and Loam for Crucibles, but still not sure if the green splash is just 6 of one and half-dozen of another yet though. Nevertheless that mono black build is very strong. How does your sideboard work out though? It is a bit different than mine.

[beez]

Pox

1 Nether Spirit

1 Haunted Plate Mail
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Cursed Scroll

1 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Lilliana Of The Veil
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition Of Kozeliek
4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual

4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
10 Swamp
1 Verdant Catacomb
1 Cabal Pit

3 ratchet bomb
1 pithing Needle
3 Extripate
1 Leyline of the Void
3 trinisphere
3 Engineered Plague

[OmniStrata]

Teluin's Sideboard looks like it's from the old school, though I think 6 GY hate might be too much. I've found 4 Leylines and 1 Surgical to be enough. Split second I've found in Extirpate can't compete with free spell. ^_^ Ensnaring Bridge... Ah, a solid lock piece for Aggro. Looking back, my build only runs 2 Nether spirits and I could just Cursed Scroll my foes to death. An old Mono-B I built a while ago was based on Ensnaring Bridge, the Rack, and Necrogen Mists. :laugh:

[Teluin]

Oh oops, I didn't update my sideboard. Those 2 Spinning Darkness should be Trinisphere. I don't consider the Surgical's graveyard hate. They are more like extra land/creature removal for decks that rely on 1 or 2 4-ofs to win. Just against S&T decks alone, I've used it on Emrakrul and S&T. Delver decks do NOT like if you use it on their land.

beez - The sideboard's pretty good. Trinisphere is great against burn and Delver decks especially. Pithing Needle is key against planeswalkers and Sneak Attack, which is very relevant since we can't remove an enchantment except via Liliana's ultimate. Unless you don't play mono-black of course, but I do not like the splash builds. I used to have Ratchet Bombs in my SB, and I might go back to that if Painter decks continue to stick around. Also considering 1 MB Damnation. As for Mox Diamond, I wouldn't do it - Ritual all day long. If I were you, I'd run 2 Dakmor Salvage over 1 Swamp/1 Verdant Catacomb. It works great with Smallpox and can help with Top.

Omni - I would only bother with 1 Nether Spirit, unless you have a card like Spinning Darkness in the main (which I wouldn't do... this deck has a ton of removal as is) to remove 1 of the extra spirits if that ever became necessary. Scroll also works as creature removal too of course.

[Teluin]

Oh, and I mentioned it briefly but has anyone used Damnation at all? I find if I ever fall behind on taking out their creatures, things can suck big time. A big sweeper in a deck like this can really bring things back to the start - only less cards in hand, which is what we want.

[beez]

Oh, and I mentioned it briefly but has anyone used Damnation at all? I find if I ever fall behind on taking out their creatures, things can suck big time. A big sweeper in a deck like this can really bring things back to the start - only less cards in hand, which is what we want.

I love Damnation, but it can be hard to get to 4 mana without having to pitch it. Then again I could hide it with Top like I do with HPM, but the less of that sort of thing I have to do the better.

[beez]

Ratchet Bombs are for Chalice and other permanent that are hard to get rid of but have a big effect, as well as some creature and token sweeping. Perhaps I could consider going back to a 2-2 split with Needle. Do hate Jaces and Countertops.

[zenitramleirdag]

a singleton damnation is cute..but if you're looking for a sweep effect, i think you're better off maindecking infest..it can almost always clear the table of weenies..your innocent bloods can clean up what's left..

please don't get me wrong, i don't mean to undermine damnation..in the right meta, it can be a blowout..i've even tried maindecking it before..but its exorbitant cost had been an issue on many occasions..

[Ralf]

a singleton damnation is cute..but if you're looking for a sweep effect, i think you're better off maindecking infest..it can almost always clear the table of weenies..your innocent bloods can clean up what's left..

please don't get me wrong, i don't mean to undermine damnation..in the right meta, it can be a blowout..i've even tried maindecking it before..but its exorbitant cost had been an issue on many occasions..

here is my SB:

3 Extirpate
2 Pithing needle
3 Engineering plague
2 Ratchet bomb
3 Thorn of amethyst
2 Damnation

A] I used Perish before packaging Damnation. But the "green" constraint was too narrow and I needed a wider answer to "non only green" aggro decks.
1 more mana is 1 more mana. It hurts sometimes, but time will tell if I am right or wrong on this point. Furthermore, black is everywhere now and a lot of aggro deck are packing badass madness creatures to fight against discard + liliana and I hate dying to Liege or Loxodon...

B] Thorn of amethyst (could be sphere of resistance if you prefer) is IMHO better than trinisphere in those MU that we need to slow down. Why?
It comes a bit sooner if not DR or could be daze-proof if DR was used. In the long run, TOA stacks where multiple trinisphere are waiting in your hand to be discarded. Furthermore, I found that in some MU, TOA is better than trinisphere (Omnitell, storm).
This slot could also be used by Chalice of the Void. I need more test on this.

Note: I'm using 1 nethervoid + 1 trinisphere main deck already. So that I am bringing just more hate against combo !

C] Engineering is an ALL STAR against tribal no more to say ! Nevertheless I recently found it a bit clunky against token.dec because there are more and more different tokens :-(

D] Ratchet bomb is mainly here to deal with artefact & enchant.dec. With the recent bloom/revival of MUD, I'll might be packing one more...

E] Extirpate. Well, it serves as anti-combo/grave hate/Land denial. Less powerfull than leyline of the void I guess in the grave combat, but there is still so much gravehate in my meta right now that I feel confidant to keep them out my board for a little longer til the meta evolved again to some "retarded" grave.dec

Hope these "small" insights could help some of Pox players.

Decklist

4 Wasteland
4 Mishra
12 Swamp
4 Urborg
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

4 Hymn to tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Innocent Blood
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Dark ritual

1 Nether void
1 Trinisphere
1 Crucible of worlds
2 Cursed scroll

2 Nether spirit

[Teluin]

I don't like Infest because I already have a Tabernacle MB and 2 Engineered in the sideboard to take out the weenie hordes. It's when they get 2-4 big-ish creatures (like Mongoose/'goyfs) before I can stabilize their creatures that it gets tricky, because you're already on a pretty tight clock.

[beez]

Good point about Sphere of Resistance vs Trinisphere (Why use Thorn? We don't play creatures, might as well tax those too).

Specifically, how have your matches with Storm and Omnitell gone with each of those options.

Also, for green splash is Drop of Honey just worse than The Abyss to use for that type of slot?

[D0LPHY]

A singleton Damnation is cute, but if you're looking for a sweep effect, I think you're better off maindecking Infest. It can almost always clear the table of weenies. Your innocent bloods can clean up what's left. Please don't get me wrong, I don't mean to undermine damnation. In the right meta, it can be a blowout. I've even tried maindecking it before, but its exorbitant cost had been an issue on many occasions.

I ran Infest for a long time, and eventually switched it out for Black Sun's Zenith. It sounds silly, but it's really terrific in the deck. For the same cost as Infest, it handles token hordes. For the cost of Damnation, it handles most of the format. We have plenty of sac-effects to pick up stragglers, and anyway, Zenith permanently shrinks the creatures it doesn't kill. Its recursive effect is nice, since you start to see it more and more often as the game draws on. Additionally, it serves as a shuffle effect for Sylvan Library or Sensei's Divining Top. You can also cast in on 0 to save it from a Liliana activation. Often the situational nature of sweepers makes them bad topdecks with Liliana down against few or no creatures (often Aether Vial decks will hold up creatures until they can pump a bunch out at once to overwhelm Factories/Liliana). (It also has some funky corner-case applications, like preventing death by Jace ultimate, and stifling Persist triggers.) I eventually cut it because it doesn't play well with Nether Void, which I feel is more important. I now use hellbent Ensnaring Bridges as my main strategy vs. creature-heavy decks.


Also, for green splash is Drop of Honey just worse than The Abyss to use for that type of slot?

I can say from experience that Drop of Honey is fantastic. The Abyss is far too slow for that effect. It comes down typically turn 4 (if you make all your land drops and haven't had to discard it), when your opponent usually has at least 3 creatures down (in a mid-range shell. In a tribal deck, probably more, so Abyss is awful there.). From there, they can drop a couple more creatures to pad out their board while they swing for the last few points of damage. Drop of Honey comes down as soon as they play their second creature (or their first if it's Deathrite Shaman) and puts the brakes on their development. Either they have to wait it out (and let you 2-for-1 them while you attack their hand and build board presence) or they have to race the Drop, in which case they'll never get ahead owing to additional sac-effects you can play as necessary. While we're not a tempo-deck per se, we can benefit greatly from essentially time-walking our opponent board-wise, since our high curve is our downfall in the midrange matchup. Drop of Honey also answers Iona, Shield of Emeria!

[beez]

Maybe for the board:

2x Drop of Honey
2x Engineered Plague

Rather than Perish possibly. Interesting ideas about BSZ as well.

[Hardcore]

Tnx, for the mini primer on black suns Zenith!

[beez]

@ Dolphy . With the green splash, what do you side out against combos like Storm and Reanimator? Does Abrupt Decay get sided out in these matchups?

[Ralf]

I ran Infest for a long time, and eventually switched it out for Black Sun's Zenith. It sounds silly, but it's really terrific in the deck. For the same cost as Infest, it handles token hordes. For the cost of Damnation, it handles most of the format. We have plenty of sac-effects to pick up stragglers, and anyway, Zenith permanently shrinks the creatures it doesn't kill. Its recursive effect is nice, since you start to see it more and more often as the game draws on. Additionally, it serves as a shuffle effect for Sylvan Library or Sensei's Divining Top. You can also cast in on 0 to save it from a Liliana activation. Often the situational nature of sweepers makes them bad topdecks with Liliana down against few or no creatures (often Aether Vial decks will hold up creatures until they can pump a bunch out at once to overwhelm Factories/Liliana). (It also has some funky corner-case applications, like preventing death by Jace ultimate, and stifling Persist triggers.) I eventually cut it because it doesn't play well with Nether Void, which I feel is more important. I now use hellbent Ensnaring Bridges as my main strategy vs. creature-heavy decks.



I can say from experience that Drop of Honey is fantastic. The Abyss is far too slow for that effect. It comes down typically turn 4 (if you make all your land drops and haven't had to discard it), when your opponent usually has at least 3 creatures down (in a mid-range shell. In a tribal deck, probably more, so Abyss is awful there.). From there, they can drop a couple more creatures to pad out their board while they swing for the last few points of damage. Drop of Honey comes down as soon as they play their second creature (or their first if it's Deathrite Shaman) and puts the brakes on their development. Either they have to wait it out (and let you 2-for-1 them while you attack their hand and build board presence) or they have to race the Drop, in which case they'll never get ahead owing to additional sac-effects you can play as necessary. While we're not a tempo-deck per se, we can benefit greatly from essentially time-walking our opponent board-wise, since our high curve is our downfall in the midrange matchup. Drop of Honey also answers Iona, Shield of Emeria!

Drop of honey or the green porphyry nodes !!!

1) Nice effect. Can stall the game a bit but the main problem will always be "when to play it to get its maximum effect". With all the sac effect we have, I think The Abyss is still better in this slot = AD proof / permanent effect.

2) BSZ will be tested soon instead of Damnation. Good idea. My only pb with it is that it does not handle Goyf / KOTR / anything big. Otherwise it is as bad as damnation can be against Gaddock...(which was certainly why a lot of POX players packed Perish when Maverick was everywhere)

@ Beez:

I do only own Thorn of amethyst not sphere of resistance. So that's why ! But hell, go for sphere of course. (It does not really matter, as you will likely only pack TOA against combo.deck).

So far not bad but I still have to test "chalice of the void" just to see which one is better.

Copied/pasted from what I wrote on Mtgsalvation.

I played a BOM trial last saturday (60 players) in Paris with the list I posted a couple pages back, with a small change:
- 2 rishadan port
+1 The tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
+1 Smallpox
-1 Ensnaring bridge
+1 Swamp

6 swiss round + a top 8.
I ended up 16th. With a final score of 4 - 2.

Quick sum up!

Round 1 Omni Clash Loss 1-2

Game 1
I lose the toss. We both mull to 6. The island does it thing and by turn 3 we have an omniscience on the battlefield and a nether void on my side... After some cantrips (3-cmc..but hell he can pay) he finds a bouncing effect and I'm dead.

+3 extirpate +3 thorn of amethyst -4 IB -2 Hymn

Game 2
He does not mull into 6 neither do I. At this point, I think he is lucky and has his leyline in his opening-7, but no. Discard S&T + extirpate and he scooped under heavy beating of a nether spirit

Game 3
Again no leyline. I manage to resolve 3 thorn of amethyst but I do not see any mana denial in 12 turn so finally he reached 6 mana for S&T into Emrakul.
I scooped without drawing...Smallpox was on top of it (and he was full tap).
Yeah I'm a f...ing monkey !

Round 2 Stoneblade (don't remember which variant it was...) Win 2-0

Game 1
Opponent mull into 5.
DR into Trinis, I kept pressure on mana denial, really nothing he could do. (board empty, hand empty...hello pox)

-4 DR + 2 ratchet bomb + 2 extirpate

Game 2
Opponent mull into 6. After a hymn followed by a small pox and a liliana, nether void ETB and seals the game.

Well I did not not play magic here. Luck was definetely not on my opponent side.

Round 3 Aggro token GW loss 0-2

A home brew deck full of little beasts with battle cry and token cards.
I was crushed hard by Bladehold each game.

This time, luck was on my opponent side. I went very hard on mana denial each game (destroyed not less than 6 lands) but my opponent was always drawing into another. Interesting. I made a big mistake on game 2. I guess I could have took a draw here rather than a loss...

- 4 DR + 3 Engineering plague + 1 perish

So well I'm out of top 8, not because the deck is not a real contender just because of me. Anyway, I was coming to play it so I moved on and cheered myself a bit.

Round 4 Shardless BUG Win 2-0

Game 1
I keep a strong hand with 2 DR 2 Hymn 1 TS 1 Swamp 1 liliana. Opponent mull to 6. By turn 2, his hand is empty. Liliana sealed the game.

- 4 DR + 2 ratchet + 2 perish

Game 2
Opponent mull to 6 again. He is on the play with a turn 1 Ancestral followed by another on turn 2. At this moment I felt like I was going to lose to his CA.

Mid game a resolved perish took care of a goyf (6/7) and a shardless agent.
Nether void finally showed up but my opponent managed to come back from a next turn killing blow by playing a pithing on my mishra. Cursed scroll met also another pithing. Liliana was surgically extracted... But the field was wide open for my crucible, which was only waiting a waste. Once drawn, opponent scooped !!!

Round 5 Punishing Jund Win 2-0

Game 1
My opponent lost the liliana's battle because of my cursed scroll.

Nothing came in.

Game 2
DR into Crucible, followed by wasteland. My opponent scooped on turn 3...

Well here DR + crucible + wasteland stole a game for me.

Round 6 Elves Win 2 - 0

Game 1
We went back and forth till he only had an Ooze 9/9 left and a forest on the board. I was dying here forced to chump block with mishra which were exiled each time by the ooze despite having crucible in play. the turn before he has lethal I draw into smallpox, followed by Nether Void and he scooped.

My SB is like a killer against him but he doesnot know

- 4 Hymn - 3 Sinkhole + 3 Engineering plague + 2 perish + 2 ratched

Game 2
Turn 1 DRS met IB
Turn 2 Dryad + again DRS met DR + perish
Turn 3 LLanowar met engineering plague naming elves
Turn 4 Opponent played nothing -> Nether Void and opponent scooped

[D0LPHY]

@ Dolphy. With the green splash, what do you side out against combos like Storm and Reanimator? Does Abrupt Decay get sided out in these matchups?

This is what I'm currently on:

ANT/TES

-1 Cursed Scroll
-2 Sinkhole
-2 Crucible of Worlds
+2 Surgical Extraction
+3 Extirpate

Reanimator

-1 Crucible of Worlds
-2 Sinkhole
-4 Hymn to Tourach
-4 Abrupt Decay
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Drop of Honey
+3 Extirpate
+4 Ensnaring Bridge

Abrupt Decays are weak against Storm, but holding one up against a multiple-LED play will mess up your opponent's math, and often win you the game. Against Reanimator, they are dead. You need Cursed Scroll to win through Ensnaring Bridge. Sinkholes are weak in both matchups because neither deck needs much mana to go off, especially since many Reanimator pilots these days are packing Dark Ritual/Lotus Petal. Given the prevalence of main-deck Show and Tell these days, I find Reanimator to be one of the most sophisticated matches for us (it's rather even, too).


Drop of honey or the green porphyry nodes !!!
1) Nice effect. Can stall the game a bit but the main problem will always be "when to play it to get its maximum effect". With all the sac effect we have, I think The Abyss is still better in this slot = AD proof / permanent effect.

The Abyss is probably fine. I don't like it because I find my opponent having multiple creatures in the early game is how I die. If I can survive long enough to get The Abyss out (and get my opponent to 0 creatures), I probably don't need it. The real reason I've never considered it is it doesn't play nice with Nether Void.

[beez]

This is what I'm currently on:

ANT/TES

-1 Cursed Scroll
-2 Sinkhole
-2 Crucible of Worlds
+2 Surgical Extraction
+3 Extirpate

Reanimator

-1 Crucible of Worlds
-2 Sinkhole
-4 Hymn to Tourach
-4 Abrupt Decay
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Drop of Honey
+3 Extirpate
+4 Ensnaring Bridge

Abrupt Decays are weak against Storm, but holding one up against a multiple-LED play will mess up your opponent's math, and often win you the game. Against Reanimator, they are dead. You need Cursed Scroll to win through Ensnaring Bridge. Sinkholes are weak in both matchups because neither deck needs much mana to go off, especially since many Reanimator pilots these days are packing Dark Ritual/Lotus Petal. Given the prevalence of main-deck Show and Tell these days, I find Reanimator to be one of the most sophisticated matches for us (it's rather even, too).



The Abyss is probably fine. I don't like it because I find my opponent having multiple creatures in the early game is how I die. If I can survive long enough to get The Abyss out (and get my opponent to 0 creatures), I probably don't need it. The real reason I've never considered it is it doesn't play nice with Nether Void.

I see by siding out the Crucibles you don't think that Wastelock is worth the effort on a short clock even though those decks run mostly non-basic Sol Lands. I suppose the chances are better to catch an LED with Decay, even though it costs two to get rid of a zero.

Against Jund what do you side out to add in the Extirpates that are good against them to get lands, combat thier own Loam and Punishing Fire? I like all our cards in this match but feel the need to get the Drops and Extirpates in.

[Hardcore]

Just ordered three Black Sun's Zenith from magiccardmarket.eu.
Maybe I will run three in main, and one in sideboard. I figure they could replace Perish.

I wonder; hex proof is no defence against BSZ, right? Should be good vs Mongoose and Mirran Crusader.

[D0LPHY]

I see by siding out the Crucibles you don't think that Wastelock is worth the effort on a short clock even though those decks run mostly non-basic Sol Lands.

I've never seen a storm list with 'sol' lands. They typically have no use for colorless mana. I've seen an Ancient Tomb or two in a Reanimator list, but either way, we need to be proactive; the Waste-lock doesn't accomplish anything in the short term in terms of preventing them from going off. Notice I do leave 1 in against Reanimator.


Against Jund what do you side out to add in the Extirpates that are good against them to get lands, combat thier own Loam and Punishing Fire? I like all our cards in this match but feel the need to get the Drops and Extirpates in.

I've always found Jund to be a bad matchup (easily the worst of the midrange decks). I put in a lot of time trying to figure this one out, and I've come up with something a little unusual:

-2 Thoughtseize
-4 Liliana of the Veil
-4 Hymn to Tourach
+2 Drop of Honey
+4 Ensnaring Bridge
+4 Pithing Needle

I find my Lilianas to be pretty bad against Jund, owing to their having Lightning Bolt/Punishing Fire, Bloodbraid Elf (haste), Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom Pulse, etc. Meanwhile, Jund's Lilianas are quite tough for us: unless we have the Decay, our Factories can rarely get through. Also, Deathrite Shaman is a pain. Thus, Pithing Needle. Ensnaring Bridge is wonderful, but I like the Drops as well. I pull out most of my discard to make room for all my creature hate. (I'm still on the fence about leaving in 2 Thoughtseize or 2 Hymn.) Once I've boarded out my Lilianas, I really don't care about Punishing Fire. Life From the Loam is a very real problem if they run it, but as it happens, I've never encountered it. If I see it, I pull out 2 Drop of Honey and an Ensnaring Bridge for 3 Extirpate.

[beez]

Do you also use the Needle vs Stoneblade or Deathblade?

[D0LPHY]

Do you also use the Needle vs Stoneblade or Deathblade?

Yes, but more for Jace than anything else.

[Will_L]

What do you guys think about Braids, Cabal Minion?

One of her biggest downsides is she is a creature that cannot be recurred by itself, like Nether Spirit or Bloodghast. This makes Smallpox and Innocent Blood potentially worse, but since she is 2BB I think she usually be last card in your hand you would play anyway. Another thing that could be awkward is having Braids out too long without Crucible of Worlds or Dakmor Salvage (if you are playing it)... I don't think that would be especially bad anyway, since you should be ahead in resources from our mana denial and board control.

On to why I think she is good! She's basically a Smokestack that is always set to 1 and that can't kill our Nether Voids or Lilianas. Once their board is clear she is a 2/2 body that can swing in with Factories. She is also pretty ridiculous with Crucible of Worlds, I think a lot of decks would scoop to that.

Sorry if I'm dredging up an old topic but I've read back a little bit into the thread and hadn't seen her being discussed.

[Hardcore]

I have actually ordered a play set because I like her too, and the cards are really cheap. If not fighting combo then I figure she is playable, otherwise she is too slowl.

[Teluin]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/features/feat267ymtc_winnameaksjdflk.jpg

This could be an interesting card for the deck. Nice with Hymn, Liliana, Thoughtseize, IoK etc. I really like this card.

[Hardcore]

Most Decks that splash black can run this, and probably better than pox.
Shardless agent perhaps...

[Chatto]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/features/feat267ymtc_winnameaksjdflk.jpg

This could be an interesting card for the deck. Nice with Hymn, Liliana, Thoughtseize, IoK etc. I really like this card.


I like it! When will it be released, that's what like to know. I'm going to try it, seems promising

[Teluin]

Most likely M15 since they discussed it with current standard cards in testing.

I was going to argue in the SCD the merits of the card in this deck, but I figured I'd rather just start using them eventually with the surprise factor.

[Mortox]

I've been brewing up a list recently, using ideas from this thread, so far I like the G splash with Loam the best. Loam just gives you so much power, especially with an Entomb to set things up. I'm trying 2x Crucible and 2x Loam right now but may change the numbers up as I go.

Has anyone ever tried Zoetic Cavern? While a little clunky, it plays nice with the deck, can be recast as Morph from the graveyard with Crucible in play, essentially filling that hard-to-get-rid-of creature spot that Nether Spirit occupies; the beauty of it is that if you cast it as Morph from the yard via Crucible, it obviously doesn't count as a land drop so you can bring in that additional pressure while you're also recycling your Mishra's/Wastelands, either way it's just an idea, I will try one out for awhile - I really like the play space that this deck occupies, it can be difficult for opponents to meaningfully interact with it.

I've played about ~50+ games in the last day or so, against a variety of decks, and I rarely feel like a complete underdog. The only problem against some decks (specifically Dredge, or decks that rely on very few lands, Belcher maybe although I haven't played against it yet, or perhaps some combo) is that there are too many dead cards in the main deck and not enough sideboard cards to properly replace them. Not much to be done about this I suppose, but when you're in a matchup where your Sinkholes, Smallpox, Abrupt Decay, Inquisitions, Wastelands, Crucibles, and possibly Hymns, don't really do much to them, it can make for a frustrating circumstance.

On a side note, has anyone tried any other color splashes? I was considering trying R, the deck has so many spells that Young Pyromancer might be interesting here, would have to go another direction with it but Pyro plays nicely with Pox and Retrace cards (I imagine Raven's Crime can get pretty abusive once you have a Pyro on board). Plus if you were still intending to stick with the land-based strategy, it could open up a few more utility lands (ie: Barbarian Ring) in some kind of BGR monstrosity.

I'm sure W also has some merit, for Lingering Souls, if nothing else.

[D0LPHY]

Has anyone ever tried Zoetic Cavern? While a little clunky, it plays nice with the deck, can be recast as Morph from the graveyard with Crucible in play, essentially filling that hard-to-get-rid-of creature spot that Nether Spirit occupies; the beauty of it is that if you cast it as Morph from the yard via Crucible, it obviously doesn't count as a land drop so you can bring in that additional pressure while you're also recycling your Mishra's/Wastelands...

This is incorrect. Zoetic Cavern does not share the intended synergy with Crucible of Worlds. If only...

[Hardcore]

A few observations from the last tourney:
Barren Moor cannot replace ordinary lands. Citp tapped is simply too bad for the decks tempo. It would be possible to run it, along with Gitaxian probe, as cantrips to thin the deck, but only if not including barren Moor I your land quota.

Braids, cabal minion is good, even for non control. The difficulty of getting that fourth mana in play suggest running dark rituals however.

[Chatto]

An original take on our beloved Pox: Bw to be precise

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5500&d=231817

[zenitramleirdag]

awesome list is awesome!
while the one with the green splash has been getting more of the limelight(pun intended :smile:), i would also go with white if i were to splash a color and take pox to a tourney..

thanks for sharing the link..

[clavio]

How are you guys dealing with Leyline of Sanctity?

[Hardcore]

MoS? Fine, it doesn't hit win conditions. RIP is worse since i run ghasts and stalkers.

[clavio]

What?

[Hardcore]

Rest in Peace. Another reason is that RIP is played in combo with Helm of Obedience; if one enters play the opponent suddenly have a clock on you. When he find the other combo piece you are dead.

Leyline is no big problem. If the opponent Sideboard in, say four of them, and you have eight discard spells in your deck, then he only is ahead by four cards.

[clavio]

Rest in Peace. Another reason is that RIP is played in combo with Helm of Obedience; if one enters play the opponent suddenly have a clock on you. When he find the other combo piece you are dead.

Leyline is no big problem. If the opponent Sideboard in, say four of them, and you have eight discard spells in your deck, then he only is ahead by four cards.

It hits hymn to tourach, which is the best card in the deck. If they are playing show and tell it's pretty much GG. It also hits things like cursed scroll and edict effects (Liliana). So what do you do? Lose?

[Hardcore]

Well, first they need it in starting hand. Second the odds are less than 50% that it is. Third, they are down one card in their hand wether or not they have it at starting hand or Mulligan. Not what I call ideal position. IIRC the deck is a three card combo.

Then if you yourself play chalice, trinisphere and/or Nethervoid you are mostly interested in getting those in play. T:1 ritual -> trinisphere is better than Hymn.

Lilianas discard ability don't target btw. If he is on the play and go Leyline -> land, and you respond with ritual liliana then it is probably a win for you. Provided you have better win cons than scroll...

[beez]

It hits hymn to tourach, which is the best card in the deck. If they are playing show and tell it's pretty much GG. It also hits things like cursed scroll and edict effects (Liliana). So what do you do? Lose?

Yes you pretty much lose if you have based too much of your gameplan on discard. You could set a Ratchet Bomb but that will take a few turns.

[wuberg]

Yeah, I'll be providing the list after the tournament.

I'm not saying my list is optimal by any means, but it absolutely wrecks combo - which is what I'm going for.

Did Hollywood's decklist ever show up somewhere? As far as I understand, Jupiter games only publish top 8 decks and it appears that the deck in question did not make it. I'm just about to rebuild my Deck toward discard using Oppression, so it would be really interesting to take a peek at that list since I've always admired Keller's deckbuilding skills.

[zenitramleirdag]

i was also anxious to see his post about it..but for some reason it didn't come..
i reckon Hollywood is very busy developing other decks(he's always brewing new ideas) so i quit bothering him about it..
we may, however playtest it ourselves and come up with a more extensive report about it..
i'm sure others are also eager to hear how it does..


-I've always admired Menendian's deckbuilding skills.

i'm not sure i understood what you said there...did you mean hollywood is stephen menendian? im not sure, i've always thought hollywood's real name is Michael keller..but i could be wrong...

[wuberg]

i was also anxious to see his post about it..but for some reason it didn't come..
i reckon Hollywood is very busy developing other decks(he's always brewing new ideas) so i quit bothering him about it.. we may, however playtest it ourselves and come up with a more extensive report about it..
i'm sure others are also eager to hear how it does..

-I've always admired Menendian's deckbuilding skills.
i'm not sure i understood what you said there...did you mean hollywood is stephen menendian? im not sure, i've always thought hollywood's real name is Michael keller..but i could be wrong...

Indeed, I will post my list and a small report after playing next week.

And I did indeed goof on Hollywood's real name. I was going through Menendian's articles over at Eternal Central when making the above post so my mind was elsewhere... I'm sorry Keller! My first real Legacy deck was The Gate so your advice will indeed always have a special place in my heart :)

[zenitramleirdag]

Indeed, I will post my list and a small report after playing next week.

And I did indeed goof on Hollywood's real name. I was going through Menendian's articles over at Eternal Central when making the above post so my mind was elsewhere... I'm sorry Keller! My first real Legacy deck was The Gate so your advice will indeed always have a special place in my heart :)


- and i am looking forward to hearing about that, good luck..

- yeah, i like his rogue mentality when building decks..

- the Gate was also one of my first legacy decks(monoblack), i like the thought processes involved in his selection of cards and how it attacked the meta..

[OmniStrata]

It hits hymn to tourach, which is the best card in the deck. If they are playing show and tell it's pretty much GG. It also hits things like cursed scroll and edict effects (Liliana). So what do you do? Lose?

This is one of the reasons why you don't go pure discard (yay sinkholes). Ratchet Bombing a Leyline is not a problem and since I run 3 copies of Pox and 4 Smallpox and Liliana of the Veil, I can rip down their resources regardless. Leyline ultimately shuts down only my discard spells and Cursed Scroll. Getting punched by 4 Mishra's, a Nether Spirit and/or Haunted Platemail is plenty fast. CS still kills their creatures.

Oh yeah, Tombstalker. He looks at a player with Leyline of Sanctity and outright murders them... If your Pox Deck is losing to a single sideboard card, I highly suggest you re-evaluate your deck. Pox was specifically designed to harm the opponent from too many different angles and kill the opponent using multiple methods.

I don't run it, but The Rack + Liliana of the Veil >> Leylines.

[zenitramleirdag]

This is one of the reasons why you don't go pure discard (yay sinkholes). Ratchet Bombing a Leyline is not a problem and since I run 3 copies of Pox and 4 Smallpox and Liliana of the Veil, I can rip down their resources regardless. Leyline ultimately shuts down only my discard spells and Cursed Scroll. Getting punched by 4 Mishra's, a Nether Spirit and/or Haunted Platemail is plenty fast. CS still kills their creatures.

Oh yeah, Tombstalker. He looks at a player with Leyline of Sanctity and outright murders them... If your Pox Deck is losing to a single sideboard card, I highly suggest you re-evaluate your deck. Pox was specifically designed to harm the opponent from too many different angles and kill the opponent using multiple methods.

I don't run it, but The Rack + Liliana of the Veil >> Leylines.

true, i like the look of confusion on my opponent's face during sideboarding time, i can imagine them thinking: "what the hell do i side-in against pox??"

i once had an opponent running a parfait deck side-in story circles against me, it just sat there while mishra's and scrolls start picking away at his life total little by little like tweezers collecting dwarf nose hairs..

[Hardcore]

I am thinking of testing Phyrexian Metamorph
Any thoughts?

[OmniStrata]

I am thinking of testing Phyrexian Metamorph
Any thoughts?

Not good for Pox. Too mana intensive. You're hoping your opponent plays a creature that spells "I win" so you can steal it. If your Pox deck is built to handle creature threats, which it should be, then it will end up being a dead card. Since most Pox decks like to run Innocent Blood (best 1cc removal imo) you could be forced to sac it.

Worst case, it's the only threat in your hand and your opponent's threats all died to your removal.

[Hardcore]

I was thinking it would be an equalizer at best, making goyf and Delver blockers, and SDT and the rack copies at worst (my own ofc) .
At least I would get parity in the creature department.

The auto-include in my deck is the bloodghasts, but I can't find equally good heavy hitters. Nihilith and tombstalker both are strong but have weaknesses that make them difficult to get in play sometimes. Ishan's shade would be perfect if not for the casting cost; hard to kill with burn, safe from AD and StP.

That is what I am looking for I new sets: good black creatures.

Thanks for the input!

[Karbunkelsopp]

Has anyone tried Wight of Precinct Six? Its cheap and can be very cost-efficient, especially late game. Imagine facing goblins and dropping a 10/10 for 2 mana as a finisher... Thoughts?


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[Hardcore]

Hm, worth testing. Would be insane vs dredge if you can get past the zombie tokens.

I have been looking for another zombie to make Gravecrawler and this one is cheap enough. There is that zombie you can make bigger through sacrifice, but it need you to recur creatures all the time.

[Hardcore]

Sewer Nemesis is a card I like, sand would play, except for its "high" casing cost.

[HammafistRoob]

Ghoultree? Worth a thought.

Derp nevermind... I thought it was all graveyards.

[zenitramleirdag]

Sewer Nemesis is a card I like, sand would play, except for its "high" casing cost.

hmm, i like this card..
can find room in a lot of decks, not just in pox..

i think it can have a better use in a pox deck than phyrexian metamorph..
metamorph's good but just as the early post had mentioned, its just not for pox..

[zenitramleirdag]

Has anyone tried Wight of Precinct Six? Its cheap and can be very cost-efficient, especially late game. Imagine facing goblins and dropping a 10/10 for 2 mana as a finisher... Thoughts?


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another good one! i can see this being good in a meta with very few combo..its like a black tarmagoyf!:smile:

[OmniStrata]

another good one! i can see this being good in a meta with very few combo..its like a black tarmagoyf!:smile:

If your build has less all-players-sac effects, creatures are fine. But that Wight is like a Black version of Boneyard Wurm. If you're in a very narrow meta with lots of small creatures, I'd say go for it.

The best 'creature' I've tested recently is Haunted Platemail. 1-of in the deck. Immune to most removal and harder to burn. Equipping him on my lone Nether Spirit gives me a Goyf killer 6/6 that doesn't stop my Mishra's Factories. Alone, he's bolt resistant and makes a great weenie wall. That and he's a decent clock.

These creature builds sound as if they should be in a deck without Innocent Blood or Pox. The problem is you're going to have to stuff your Pox deck with lots of 'sac-fodder' if you're going the creature route and unfortunately, that never worked for me. The other colors have better creatures on the whole. And I don't like splashing. I don't run budget Pox, but I'm glad my deck costs half of my friend's Land Still deck and can still kick some serious ass.

[beez]

I agree. I like Haunted Plate Mail in a build where Nether Spirit is the only creature. In my mono-black build it has been pretty good. I am usually able to keep it out of my hand until I have 4 mana to play it through SD Top library manipulation. I've been experimenting with splashing green recently and have been testing Garruck, Relentless in that slot. Some games it is better than others. I like that it can kill a weenie and then produce some more for deathtouch chumping and eventually wincon. Other times it is slow and expensive, and has the same problem as Lilly in that if they have more than one creature out it is troublesome to play other than a high cc Innocent Blood. But if you do happen to have Lilly and Garruck out at the same time- ooh boy.

[Rook1e]

Hey guys.

Novice Pox player here :) I'm looking to get some feedback on my list. It seems that i have problems closing the games and my opponent slowly comes back and steals it :(

Land (26)
1x Dakmor Salvage
2x Marsh Flats
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Rishadan Port
8x Swamp
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Enchantment (1)
1x Nether Void

Planeswalker (4)
4x Liliana of the Veil

Sorcery (19)
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Innocent Blood
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox

Instant (5)
4x Dark Ritual
1x Darkblast

Artifact (4)
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Sensei's Divining Top

Creature (1)
1x Nether Spirit

Sideboard (15)
3x Engineered Plague
2x Massacre
2x Nihil Spellbomb
3x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Surgical Extraction
1x The Abyss

[OmniStrata]

Hey guys.

Novice Pox player here :) I'm looking to get some feedback on my list. It seems that i have problems closing the games and my opponent slowly comes back and steals it :(


Get rid of Massacre and stick Tombstalker in your Sideboard. :cool: I'd also get rid of one Rishadan Port and one SDT and put in two Pox. Pox is a nuke of 7 damage on a healthy player. I sometimes wonder why people completely omit the deck's namesake card when it does soo much damage to health pools and board states.

People also have the incorrect assumption that Liliana is a win condition. If your opponent is at 1 hp, Liliana can't kill them, but POX CAN! :laugh:

[Rook1e]

Get rid of Massacre and stick Tombstalker in your Sideboard. :cool: I'd also get rid of one Rishadan Port and one SDT and put in two Pox. Pox is a nuke of 7 damage on a healthy player. I sometimes wonder why people completely omit the deck's namesake card when it does soo much damage to health pools and board states.

People also have the incorrect assumption that Liliana is a win condition. If your opponent is at 1 hp, Liliana can't kill them, but POX CAN! :laugh:

I'm not a big fan of granddaddy Pox. Actually i'd like to Try Depths+Stage as a win con. However, for that to happen i think i'll need a least 1 Crucible of World. But i just can't find the 3 cards to cut for it. Any suggestions?

[Blastoderm]

I'm not a big fan of granddaddy Pox. Actually i'd like to Try Depths+Stage as a win con. However, for that to happen i think i'll need a least 1 Crucible of World. But i just can't find the 3 cards to cut for it. Any suggestions?

Hey Rook1e,

Your list looks similar to the Loam/Pox/Depths list I'm testing. It's doing very well so far, here it is:

3 mishra’s factory
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 wasteland
2 thespian’s stage
2 dark depths
1 maze of ith
4 verdant catacombs
2 windswept heath
3 barren moor
1 cabal pit
4 bayou
1 swamp
1 forest

4 smallpox
4 abrupt decay
3 innocent blood
4 hymn to tourach
4 thoughtseize
3 liliana of the veil
4 life from the loam
3 crop rotation

Hope you can find some things you like from this list. Cabal pit has been amazing. It kills so many creatures in this format: delver, deathrite, stoneforge, confidant, elves, everything in death/taxes (even mirran crusader!), goblins. Maze of ith has also been great against batterskull and other hard to deal with creatures. Barren moor I wasn't sure about. Now I'm sold, it's such a good late game engine and cantrips in the early game.

My SB is:
3 krosan grip
4 vampire hexmage
2 dark depths
1 thespian's stage
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
3 choke

Vampire hexmage + more combo lands is there to race faster combo (even burn) and kill Jace in the miracles matchup.

[D0LPHY]

I'm looking to get some feedback on my list. It seems that i have problems closing the games and my opponent slowly comes back and steals it :(

As you suggested, Crucible is likely the answer to your eventuality problem. Being able to recur Wasteland (chiefly) as well as Mishra's Factories gives you a much stronger late-game, and I've actually never played Pox without some form of land recursion. If you splash green, Life From the Loam becomes an option (and Sylvan Library helps tremendously with the late-game), otherwise Crucible does the trick nicely. Cut a land and either a Cursed Scroll or Nether Spirit for 2 Crucibles, and see if you like it. It sounds paradoxical, but cutting 'win conditions' for control elements will actually improve your deck's ability to close out games. I run a single Scroll and 4 Factories, and my late-game feels unstoppable. Having more threats actually helps your mid-game and makes it easier to stabilize against midrange decks (where my list suffers somewhat). Having more control elements ensures that your deck transitions successfully to a prison deck once you have neutralized your opponent. Winning at that point is fairly arbitrary.

I also want to say, if you're a Pox 'novice', at some point you should proxy up a green-splashing list. Opinions differ on the relative merits of mono-black and 'Golgari' lists, but you should at least try both so you're aware of what's out there. For me there was no going back once I'd tried it. And don't worry about Loam Pox if it seems like too different a deck. From your list, just cut 3 Innocent Blood and 1 Dark Blast for 4 Abrupt Decay, replace 2 Sensei's Divining Top with 2 Sylvan Library, and cut 4 Swamps for 4 Bayou. Voila!

[OmniStrata]

I'm not a big fan of granddaddy Pox. Actually i'd like to Try Depths+Stage as a win con. However, for that to happen i think i'll need a least 1 Crucible of World. But i just can't find the 3 cards to cut for it. Any suggestions?

I've never heard of consistency in a combo variant win. Either build the deck to stomp them dead with the combo, or don't do it at all. Combo is an all in way to play after all. Pox, when I proxied it, never won with Depths Hexmage and any other old Depths version I've tested just falls flat. I find myself wanting to get Entomb and other tutor style cards in an attempt to make the win con hit.

"Oops I win" never applies to a deck that prevents your opponent from playing the game. It's like we're trying to be a Black High Tide whenever I see Depths Combo win built into a Pox deck. The less conditional cards we run, the better. The only necessary cards I've seen in a Pox deck that have certain conditions to max effectiveness is Liliana of the Veil + Cursed Scroll/the Rack.

I guess if you have to ask, Rishadan Port & Dakmor Salvage & SDT.

[Rook1e]

I've never heard of consistency in a combo variant win. Either build the deck to stomp them dead with the combo, or don't do it at all. Combo is an all in way to play after all. Pox, when I proxied it, never won with Depths Hexmage and any other old Depths version I've tested just falls flat. I find myself wanting to get Entomb and other tutor style cards in an attempt to make the win con hit.

"Oops I win" never applies to a deck that prevents your opponent from playing the game. It's like we're trying to be a Black High Tide whenever I see Depths Combo win built into a Pox deck. The less conditional cards we run, the better. The only necessary cards I've seen in a Pox deck that have certain conditions to max effectiveness is Liliana of the Veil + Cursed Scroll/the Rack.

I guess if you have to ask, Rishadan Port & Dakmor Salvage & SDT.

I know it seems kind meet and tacky. But from my experience with lands, where i also run it, it just so good to end the game in one shot when you have the game under control. I've lost to many times to a 'closed' game to just write it off without at least a little bit of testing. However, you are very likely to be right - and probably are, but i wan't to give it a chance to shine :)

Besides your clear dislike of the above, what are your thoughts on this list with a singleton of each:

Land (26)
2x Cabal Pit
1x Dark Depths
2x Marsh Flats
1x Maze of Ith
4x Mishra's Factory
6x Swamp
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Thespian's Stage
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Enchantment (1)
1x Nether Void

Sorcery (19)
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Innocent Blood
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox

Artifact (5)
2x Crucible of Worlds
1x Cursed Scroll
2x Sensei's Divining Top

Instant (5)
4x Dark Ritual
1x Darkblast

Planeswalker (4)
4x Liliana of the Ve

[Hardcore]

I got a decent result yesterday with this deck. I went 3-1 losing only to burn in the final round (curses!) The change that is important is the increase of land count to 24. Sickening Dreams seems to work, but I am not sure how well, yet.
Will change focus to my crappy sideboard now since the main seem to be good enough.


4 Bloodghast
3 Tombstalker
3 Nihilith

4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Pox
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Sickening Dreams

3 Darkblast

4 The Rack
2 Sensei’s Divining Top

22 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage

SB
3 Nevinyrral's disk
2 Black Sun’s Zenith
2 Encroach
4 Surgical Extraction
4 thorn of Amethyst

[OmniStrata]

I know it seems kind meet and tacky. But from my experience with lands, where i also run it, it just so good to end the game in one shot when you have the game under control. I've lost to many times to a 'closed' game to just write it off without at least a little bit of testing. However, you are very likely to be right - and probably are, but i wan't to give it a chance to shine :)

Besides your clear dislike of the above, what are your thoughts on this list with a singleton of each:


Drop the SDT count to 1 and insert Nether Spirit. Having Discard Fodder without the Crucible is helpful. I find lands harder to throw to Pox early game but as just a 1 of, Nether Spirit is fine in a deck list like yours.

Now you'll have all the 1-ofs you'd ever want! :laugh:

[OmniStrata]

I got a decent result yesterday with this deck. I went 3-1 losing only to burn in the final round (curses!) The change that is important is the increase of land count to 24. Sickening Dreams seems to work, but I am not sure how well, yet.
Will change focus to my crappy sideboard now since the main seem to be good enough.

SB
3 Nevinyrral's disk
2 Black Sun’s Zenith
2 Encroach
4 Surgical Extraction
4 thorn of Amethyst
[/cards]

THE DISK! My friend's old school Psychatog runs it. Costs 2x as much as the Ratchet Bomb, but activates much faster and sweeps like a Baws!

Black Sun's Zenith and Encroach are awkward. I'd say Blackmail is better than Encroach as a 2 of. BSZ is too costly. If Infest can't take care of the job combined with your Saccing removal, something is terribly wrong.

Surgical Extraction. I'd rather run Leylines. Certain decks that use the Yard require you to shut them off pretty much before the game starts. PiF combo, Dredge, etc. Deny them a graveyard from the start and you should almost auto win. I run 4 Leyline of the void and a singleton Surgical Extraction. This lets me kill their enchantment removal copies all at once. :mad:

Thorn? Sphere of resistance is better. Though since you're not of the Sinkhole/Wasteland design, mana tax effects maybe of lesser efficiency. What's this slot for?

[Copperhead]

Hey all, I've been lurking here for a while and finally decided to post to get some feedback on my list. I've been testing seriously for a big Legacy tournament in November and plan to take some version of Pox. I tried GB Pox for a few weeks but it didn't seem to get the job done. It's possible that lack of playskill was also an issue -- I was constantly pulling the wrong cards when Inquisition or Duress.

Anyway, I saw a Pox version splashing Red for Punishing Fire several pages back and wanted to give it a try. Games are much more competitive now, although still working on the playskill thing.

Punishing Pox

1 Nether Spirit

4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

1 Cursed Scroll
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Crucible of Worlds

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
2 Dreadbore
3 Punishing Fire

3 Wasteland
1 Stensia Bloodhall
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Graven Cairns
3 Badlands
2 Lavaclaw Reaches
4 Marsh Flats
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
5 Swamp

Sideboard:
2 Innocent Blood
2 Meltdown
2 Slaughter Games
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Pyroblast
2 Engineered Plague
3 Leyline of the Void


There's a lot of combo and control in my local meta, so the maindeck is a little warped towards that. Jace was a big problem before, now it's a more normal problem with Dreadbore and Bloodhall. Chandra + Top is strong, thinking about trying 3x Chandra to increase the effective card-drawing.

[203995014]

What is the general idea on mainboarding Extirpate or Surgical Extraction? Is it a good idea?

[Hardcore]

Thorn? Sphere of resistance is better. Though since you're not of the Sinkhole/Wasteland design, mana tax effects maybe of lesser efficiency. What's this slot for?

Decks that want to play a lot of spells, like Past in flames etc.

The Disk is there because it can remove RIP, Encroach is there to punish decks with greedy mana bases.
But the SB is really under construction.

[Hardcore]

Hey all, I've been lurking here for a while and finally decided to post to get some feedback on my list. I've been testing seriously for a big Legacy tournament in November and plan to take some version of Pox. I tried GB Pox for a few weeks but it didn't seem to get the job done. It's possible that lack of playskill was also an issue -- I was constantly pulling the wrong cards when Inquisition or Duress.

Anyway, I saw a Pox version splashing Red for Punishing Fire several pages back and wanted to give it a try. Games are much more competitive now, although still working on the playskill thing.

Punishing Pox

1 Nether Spirit

4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

1 Cursed Scroll
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Crucible of Worlds

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
2 Dreadbore
3 Punishing Fire

3 Wasteland
1 Stensia Bloodhall
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Graven Cairns
3 Badlands
2 Lavaclaw Reaches
4 Marsh Flats
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
5 Swamp

Sideboard:
2 Innocent Blood
2 Meltdown
2 Slaughter Games
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Pyroblast
2 Engineered Plague
3 Leyline of the Void


There's a lot of combo and control in my local meta, so the maindeck is a little warped towards that. Jace was a big problem before, now it's a more normal problem with Dreadbore and Bloodhall. Chandra + Top is strong, thinking about trying 3x Chandra to increase the effective card-drawing.

Punishing fire gives you inevitability, but not versus combo and control. A big beater like Tombstalker would be better.

Lavaclaw Reaches is worse than mishras factory, imho. Three mana activation cost? And then you want to inflate it...

[beez]

Punishing fire gives you inevitability, but not versus combo and control. A big beater like Tombstalker would be better.

Lavaclaw Reaches is worse than mishras factory, imho. Three mana activation cost? And then you want to inflate it...

While saccing your own lands. Punishing Fire would be good with Loam, but wait, that's AggroLoam.. Stensia Bloodhall would be difficult as well.

[Copperhead]

Punishing fire gives you inevitability, but not versus combo and control. A big beater like Tombstalker would be better.

Lavaclaw Reaches is worse than mishras factory, imho. Three mana activation cost? And then you want to inflate it...

Re: Punishing Fire, well, that is true. It's supposed to be for creature decks. Against blue-based combo (OmniTell, ANT, etc.) I would probably board something like:

-1 Nether Spirit
-3 Punishing Fire
-2 Dreadbore
+2 Pyroblast
+2 Slaughter Games
+2 Sphere of Resistance

I haven't tested Sphere of Resistance much. Would Tombstalker be better to put them on a clock rather than slow them down with Sphere?

Definitely struggling with the lands. Grove is essential to Punishing Fire of course, but it competes for space with other non-black mana sources (want to run at least 17 Black sources). I want to run Mishra's Factory but I like getting the colored mana from Reaches. I don't like that Reaches CIPT, of course. Maybe something like:

3 Wasteland
1 Stensia Bloodhall
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Badlands
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Swamp

Which is 16 Black sources, not terrible but not great either.

[Hardcore]

Stensia Bloodhall is an OK card vs Jace, but this really mean it also belong in the sideboard.

[rlesko]

Any reason that Holy Pox gets no love? I honestly think its the best version (tested loam pox and mono black). With Vindicate you can even do the mana denial plan against decks with basics with a ton of consistency. Flagstones of Trokair and Pox combo so well its insane. Lingering Souls is a house. Swords to plowshares is arguably better than Innocent Blood in a lot of cases. Sideboard options like Silence/Abeyance and Ethersworn Canonist are great against combo. Anyone else agree?

[ntropy]

I used to love B/W Pox. As soon as I get my mitts on another set of Vindicates I will love it again I'm sure. For now though I have a sideboard question.

I have a B/G Loam Pox build with Mox Diamonds and Chalice of the Void main - very similar to the deck discussed a few pages back. I'm preparing for a tournament, and I'm rethinking the sideboard. I currently have 4 Trinisphere (vs Storm) 4 Leyline of the Void (vs Dredge, Tinfins, etc) 3 Engineered Plague (vs. Goblins, Elves) and 4 empty slots. The local meta is unknown to me, so what would you run in those 4 slots, and do the other 11 look right? I'm trying to prepare for anything... What could I run vs. Show and Tell decks? Are there any lesser seen, but nightmarish matchups I should look out for? I'm hoping to beat Control and Tempo decks based on the nature of Pox, so the Board should shore up Combo and Aggro, I guess. Krosan Grip? Ratchet Bomb? Tombstalker? Phyrexian Negator? Infest? Something to deal with affinity? Thanks!

[hugh4893]

Hey all, I think i have a post a few pages back with an abysmal list that did not perform well at all with ankh of mishra.

I'm back again with a new list and are looking for possible suggestions/criticisms.

I don't know all the downsides, but this is what i have observed:

1. It's creatureless. I like it that way.
2. it's pure discard. (because i wanna keep it mono black, if i wanted to go land destruction, i'd splash green for loam, wastelands, abrupt decay etc.)
3. I know it's painful, but i have taken a long time to test this out, and the draw conditions are golden in this deck, they feed my discard/removal spells and out clock blue in draws and just put me ahead, also i can choose not to use them given the situation.
(as opposed to Bob, phyrexian arena, or underworld connections taking a mana from me to use spells in the same turn)
3. my major concerns are what matchups are just abysmal and what to sideboard against.

Pure Discard Spells:

4x funeral charm
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x thoughtseize
3x inquisition of kozilek

Creature Removal:

4x Innocent Blood
3x liliana of the veil
4x Smallpox

Draw Conditions:

4x night's whisper
2x sign in blood

Win conditions(aside from mishra's factory, whish is an alternative):

4x shrieking affliction
4x The Rack

Land:

12x Swamp
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard:

3x dystopia
4x leyline of the void
4x mindbreak trap
2x planar void
2x ratchet bomb


As you can see, I reeled in the graveyard hate. my meta has a devout manaless dredge player and reanimator is pretty popular at the moment from what i've seen in the tournies.

Reasoning behind the sideboard:
1. I have the dystopia in there for leyline of sanct.
2. anything with graveyard interactions kinda get helped by me, so a lot of graveyard hate.
3. Mindbreak trap because storm and other combos are HUGE in my area.
3. my concern is ratchet bomb.(Chalice of the void on 1 ruins me) i am wondering if pithing needle or infest might just be better.

I also know that burn kinda beats me, with all the dmg i'm doing to myself to feed the discard with draw conditons and thoughtseize
I think i will eventually change out the sign in blood with sensei's diving top but that's economically infeasible at the moment.

what do you think?

[beez]

I used to love B/W Pox. As soon as I get my mitts on another set of Vindicates I will love it again I'm sure. For now though I have a sideboard question.

I have a B/G Loam Pox build with Mox Diamonds and Chalice of the Void main - very similar to the deck discussed a few pages back. I'm preparing for a tournament, and I'm rethinking the sideboard. I currently have 4 Trinisphere (vs Storm) 4 Leyline of the Void (vs Dredge, Tinfins, etc) 3 Engineered Plague (vs. Goblins, Elves) and 4 empty slots. The local meta is unknown to me, so what would you run in those 4 slots, and do the other 11 look right? I'm trying to prepare for anything... What could I run vs. Show and Tell decks? Are there any lesser seen, but nightmarish matchups I should look out for? I'm hoping to beat Control and Tempo decks based on the nature of Pox, so the Board should shore up Combo and Aggro, I guess. Krosan Grip? Ratchet Bomb? Tombstalker? Phyrexian Negator? Infest? Something to deal with affinity? Thanks!

A couple of Krosan Grips and Ratchet Bombs for sure. Toxic Deluge could be considered in place of Perish or Engineered Plague when it comes out if you don't run Big Pox. If you do, Big Pox is good vs Show and Tell.

[beez]

Hey all, I think i have a post a few pages back with an abysmal list that did not perform well at all with ankh of mishra.

I'm back again with a new list and are looking for possible suggestions/criticisms.

I don't know all the downsides, but this is what i have observed:

1. It's creatureless. I like it that way.
2. it's pure discard. (because i wanna keep it mono black, if i wanted to go land destruction, i'd splash green for loam, wastelands, abrupt decay etc.)
3. I know it's painful, but i have taken a long time to test this out, and the draw conditions are golden in this deck, they feed my discard/removal spells and out clock blue in draws and just put me ahead, also i can choose not to use them given the situation.
(as opposed to Bob, phyrexian arena, or underworld connections taking a mana from me to use spells in the same turn)
3. my major concerns are what matchups are just abysmal and what to sideboard against.

Pure Discard Spells:

4x funeral charm
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x thoughtseize
3x inquisition of kozilek

Creature Removal:

4x Innocent Blood
3x liliana of the veil
4x Smallpox

Draw Conditions:

4x night's whisper
2x sign in blood

Win conditions(aside from mishra's factory, whish is an alternative):

4x shrieking affliction
4x The Rack

Land:

12x Swamp
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard:

3x dystopia
4x leyline of the void
4x mindbreak trap
2x planar void
2x ratchet bomb


As you can see, I reeled in the graveyard hate. my meta has a devout manaless dredge player and reanimator is pretty popular at the moment from what i've seen in the tournies.

Reasoning behind the sideboard:
1. I have the dystopia in there for leyline of sanct.
2. anything with graveyard interactions kinda get helped by me, so a lot of graveyard hate.
3. Mindbreak trap because storm and other combos are HUGE in my area.
3. my concern is ratchet bomb.(Chalice of the void on 1 ruins me) i am wondering if pithing needle or infest might just be better.

I also know that burn kinda beats me, with all the dmg i'm doing to myself to feed the discard with draw conditons and thoughtseize
I think i will eventually change out the sign in blood with sensei's diving top but that's economically infeasible at the moment.

what do you think?

Dystopia,.. That's pretty good sideboard tech vs Leyline of Sanctity as that is one of the toughest things against Discard Pox. I would say yes to at least 3 Ratchet Bombs if Chalice ruins you, because you will see it from time to time.

[Hardcore]

I used to love B/W Pox. As soon as I get my mitts on another set of Vindicates I will love it again I'm sure. For now though I have a sideboard question.

I have a B/G Loam Pox build with Mox Diamonds and Chalice of the Void main - very similar to the deck discussed a few pages back. I'm preparing for a tournament, and I'm rethinking the sideboard. I currently have 4 Trinisphere (vs Storm) 4 Leyline of the Void (vs Dredge, Tinfins, etc) 3 Engineered Plague (vs. Goblins, Elves) and 4 empty slots. The local meta is unknown to me, so what would you run in those 4 slots, and do the other 11 look right? I'm trying to prepare for anything... What could I run vs. Show and Tell decks? Are there any lesser seen, but nightmarish matchups I should look out for? I'm hoping to beat Control and Tempo decks based on the nature of Pox, so the Board should shore up Combo and Aggro, I guess. Krosan Grip? Ratchet Bomb? Tombstalker? Phyrexian Negator? Infest? Something to deal with affinity? Thanks!

Surgical extraction is better than leyline.
slightly worse vs dredge but add versatility to handle other match-ups.
Along with discard you can remove key cards from a deck. Like omnitell for example.

Generally speaking try figure out what decks are least likely to turn up in numbers, and ignore them. Odds are they will be someone else problem after all.
Myself I would worry more about Shardless Agent than Omnitell, or ANT, for example. Or Delver decks.

[OmniStrata]

Hey all, I think i have a post a few pages back with an abysmal list that did not perform well at all with ankh of mishra.

I'm back again with a new list and are looking for possible suggestions/criticisms.

I don't know all the downsides, but this is what i have observed:

1. It's creatureless. I like it that way.
2. it's pure discard. (because i wanna keep it mono black, if i wanted to go land destruction, i'd splash green for loam, wastelands, abrupt decay etc.)
3. I know it's painful, but i have taken a long time to test this out, and the draw conditions are golden in this deck, they feed my discard/removal spells and out clock blue in draws and just put me ahead, also i can choose not to use them given the situation.
(as opposed to Bob, phyrexian arena, or underworld connections taking a mana from me to use spells in the same turn)
3. my major concerns are what matchups are just abysmal and what to sideboard against.


2. If you wanted to go Land Destruction, Sinkhole+Wasteland is better than Loam etc. Why? Much faster. Also kills basics. Pure discard is tricky in that they can just cast what they top deck. When you nuke their lands at the same time, their dead draws get discarded away since you stall them. For pure discard, I'd add the 4th Inquisition and remove the Funeral Charms for 3 Wrench Minds. 2 for 1 them all day. Or they throw away an Aether Vial, Crucible of Worlds, or Umezawa's Jitte. Fine by me ^_^

3. Since you've tested it and it works, I'm assuming the life you're bleeding away isn't being smashed by fast creature swarms. But that's what the sideboard is for right? I suppose killing your opponent with Sign in Blood adds humor value, but my experience with any hard draw got me killed faster in my local meta which is mostly aggro. How often do you get the draw spell, but can't use it due to life total being too low?

4. Your build definitely needs to sideboard against fast draw decks that dump their hand quickly using very cheap threats. Some targetted creature removal wouldn't hurt. I'd recommend Smother or Spinning Darkness.

Here's hoping your pure discard version works! I never could get it to work :(

[hugh4893]

2. If you wanted to go Land Destruction, Sinkhole+Wasteland is better than Loam etc. Why? Much faster. Also kills basics. Pure discard is tricky in that they can just cast what they top deck. When you nuke their lands at the same time, their dead draws get discarded away since you stall them. For pure discard, I'd add the 4th Inquisition and remove the Funeral Charms for 3 Wrench Minds. 2 for 1 them all day. Or they throw away an Aether Vial, Crucible of Worlds, or Umezawa's Jitte. Fine by me ^_^

3. Since you've tested it and it works, I'm assuming the life you're bleeding away isn't being smashed by fast creature swarms. But that's what the sideboard is for right? I suppose killing your opponent with Sign in Blood adds humor value, but my experience with any hard draw got me killed faster in my local meta which is mostly aggro. How often do you get the draw spell, but can't use it due to life total being too low?

4. Your build definitely needs to sideboard against fast draw decks that dump their hand quickly using very cheap threats. Some targetted creature removal wouldn't hurt. I'd recommend Smother or Spinning Darkness.

Here's hoping your pure discard version works! I never could get it to work :(

Omni:
Thanks for the input!

1. As for land destruction, It changes how the deck plays that kinda slows the clock on the Shrieking Affliction and [CARD] the rack[/CARDS], by having no land to play their cards it keeps their hands more full. I know the argument there is "this is a control deck and your goal is to keep them from playing anything." but the way it plays with everything I run into, it plays more with the speed of a mid range deck. From what i've seen thus far, if you have a lot of non-targetted discard spells, the opponent will usually discard a land over the spell they wish to play the next turn and essentially locks them out later in the same manner. I think i just need to playtest against a wider range of decks to see what they can drop in 1 turn that can disrupt me.

2. My primary playtesting partner is a burn player that runs all fetches, grim lavamancers, fireblast, etc.. all the speed 1cc spells and I usually go 60% win against him (unless he sides in guerrilla tactics then i just lose, but our meta doesn't really allow for him to run that sideboard) I think the reason I do well is the draw conditions as well as a few other responses. Funeral charm is a targetted removal against weenies(like grim lavamancer, and i just use 2x funeral charm against things like goblin guide because with the draw conditions i just run into any of the 11 cards i have to kill creatures). I actually think its the sorcery draw conditions that make the deck. It's not a bob i need to remove myself before it kills me, and i can choose to not draw so much unless i really need to when i am playing an aggro deck. with six 2cc draw spells i run into all my creature hate i need and feed the discard.

Like you said, it might need something against fast drawing aggro decks, and I am more worried about merfolk because it's got all the glory of blue with counters and draw conditions, but it's not apperent in my meta.i have yet to be able to playtest anybody that plays elves, but discard pairs very well against combo. I am afraid of tribal and swarms. but i have considered infest and Damnation, but i just need to find somebody that plays those well and see how it fairs to see how the draw conditions run into my removal at the pace they are able to put it out.

3. Wrench Mind is a good choice, but i really like funeral charm, it gives me options. I can pump mishra's factory to speed the clock if their hand is empty, remove a 1 toughness creature, swing around a creature they have to block with my urborg, and it even interupts storm because it's the only instant speed discard spell. (I love that aspect, they pop a lion's eye and a tutor and i just eat their card they tutored for on their turn.) But I'll have to see if it would just be better to lower and go for a more powerful spot removal, as far as i've seen the draw conditions just let me run into everything i need.

i gotta see how it will fair for me to change it, i am playing a tourny in nov, if anybody else sees any reactions that might serve better feel free to express them.

[stiffbeard]

Fellow pox players,

I have been playing pox off and on now for about a year. Haven't had much success yet.

Has anyone thought about the new card from commander 2013, 'Ophiomancer'?

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=514879

I feel like this could be a great tool for pox. Keeps goyf and friends off our back all day long, and is immune to smallpox/innocent blood.

[ntropy]

Hey, I'm still head-scratching over my sideboard. This is my list:

4 mox diamond
4 chalice of the void
3 life from the loam
4 liliana of the veil
4 smallpox
4 sinkhole
4 hymn to tourach
3 abrupt decay
2 pox
2 sylvan library
1 bloodghast
1 nether spirit
4 bayou
4 verdant catacombs
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 swamp
1 forest
1 cabal pit


I'm trying to side against storm, omnitell, sneak and show, goblins, elves, and other random aggro like affinity and infect stompy. I'm headed for a small-time LGS tourney, and I really don't know what to expect, but those are matchups that I feel need help. Sadly I don't have much opportunity to play real games so I can't work this out for myself.

The maindeck Chalice does a lot, but I want to bring in either Trinisphere or Sphere of Resistance to help out vs. Storm. I see Trini in more pox sideboards - is there a particular reason to choose it over Sphere of Resistance? Should these come in vs Omnitell to slow down their cantripping? I'm going to go with Surgical Extractions to help against Dredge and friends, and they could also be good alongside my discard effects vs Show and Tell decks. Is Engineered Plague enough to deal with Goblins and Elves? Should I run Infest to help out since it also hits affinity? Ratchet Bomb comes in against Empty the Warrens or Bridge from Below - Is it helpful against Goblins at all? I have a million questions! Anyways, I'm currently going with this:


4 surgical extraction
4 trinisphere
3 engineered plague
3 ratchet bomb
1 abrupt decay


Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks!

[hugh4893]

Hey, I'm still head-scratching over my sideboard. This is my list:

4 mox diamond
4 chalice of the void
3 life from the loam
4 liliana of the veil
4 smallpox
4 sinkhole
4 hymn to tourach
3 abrupt decay
2 pox
2 sylvan library
1 bloodghast
1 nether spirit
4 bayou
4 verdant catacombs
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 swamp
1 forest
1 cabal pit


I'm trying to side against storm, omnitell, sneak and show, goblins, elves, and other random aggro like affinity and infect stompy. I'm headed for a small-time LGS tourney, and I really don't know what to expect, but those are matchups that I feel need help. Sadly I don't have much opportunity to play real games so I can't work this out for myself.

The maindeck Chalice does a lot, but I want to bring in either Trinisphere or Sphere of Resistance to help out vs. Storm. I see Trini in more pox sideboards - is there a particular reason to choose it over Sphere of Resistance? Should these come in vs Omnitell to slow down their cantripping? I'm going to go with Surgical Extractions to help against Dredge and friends, and they could also be good alongside my discard effects vs Show and Tell decks. Is Engineered Plague enough to deal with Goblins and Elves? Should I run Infest to help out since it also hits affinity? Ratchet Bomb comes in against Empty the Warrens or Bridge from Below - Is it helpful against Goblins at all? I have a million questions! Anyways, I'm currently going with this:


4 surgical extraction
4 trinisphere
3 engineered plague
3 ratchet bomb
1 abrupt decay


Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks!

how prevalent is your meta in storm?
Mindbreak Trap

[D0LPHY]

Hey, I'm still head-scratching over my sideboard.

...

I'm trying to side against storm, omnitell, sneak and show, goblins, elves, and other random aggro like affinity and infect stompy. I'm headed for a small-time LGS tourney, and I really don't know what to expect, but those are matchups that I feel need help. Sadly I don't have much opportunity to play real games so I can't work this out for myself.

The maindeck Chalice does a lot, but I want to bring in either Trinisphere or Sphere of Resistance to help out vs. Storm. I see Trini in more pox sideboards - is there a particular reason to choose it over Sphere of Resistance? Should these come in vs Omnitell to slow down their cantripping? I'm going to go with Surgical Extractions to help against Dredge and friends, and they could also be good alongside my discard effects vs Show and Tell decks. Is Engineered Plague enough to deal with Goblins and Elves? Should I run Infest to help out since it also hits affinity? Ratchet Bomb comes in against Empty the Warrens or Bridge from Below - Is it helpful against Goblins at all? I have a million questions! Anyways, I'm currently going with this:


4 surgical extraction
4 trinisphere
3 engineered plague
3 ratchet bomb
1 abrupt decay


Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks!

Personally, I vastly prefer Nether Void over either Sphere of Resistance or Trinisphere. The problem with Trinisphere is it only taxes cheap spells. This is all fine and well against most combo, but it means it has to sit in the board, as it does nothing against most midrange and control decks. You can run Void in the main, since it's also terrific against midrange/aggro (in fact, pretty much everything that doesn't run Aether Vial), and thus free up more sideboard space. I would cut Pox for them. Also, while the Chalice of the Void main is admirable, it might not be helping your combo matchup that much, since it cuts off Surgical Extraction/Extirpate and precludes you from playing 1cc hand disruption (Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize), which might be more important. Infest is great (I even ran Black Sun's Zenith for a while!), and I find it does a lot more than Engineered Plague nowadays. You need your anti-creature slot to be killing x/2's, and taking care of a wide range of creatures for it to be worth running against midrange (where you'll want it).

The Ratchet Bomb is nice, and certainly provides redundancy with Infest/E. Plague against token hordes and the like, but is it good enough against Jace? I often struggle with planeswalkers, and have taken to running 4 Pithing Needle in the board as a catch-all. You have more threats, and so may be able to hold off Jace, but when they find the Swords to Plowshares/Terminus, sometimes he just goes all the way. I would also try to fit the last Abrupt Decay in the main. It is dead in so few matchups, and provides such an effective foil to our plentiful edict effects that I'm always happy to draw it.

Finally, I would consider adding a 25th land (and not cutting anything). I too run a 4-Mox-Diamond list with Sylvan Library, and I found the perfect manabase for me was 25/61. The 25th land improves your Mox Diamonds, and by making it a utility land you improve your Loaming also. Might I suggest The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale?


how prevalent is your meta in storm?
Mindbreak Trap

I strongly dislike Mindbreak Trap. I feel the format has moved beyond it. If you run Mindbreak, most of the time your storm opponent will spot it before going off (either with a Gitaxian Probe or with the Duress that takes it), making it no better than a permanent piece of hate (for example, Sphere of Resistance or Trinisphere), in that it simply requires them to draw/find their answer. The difference is that the permanent hate-piece impedes them even as they try to find their answer, by taxing cantrips, or limiting their spells per turn (Ethersworn Canonist/Rule of Law, etc.), while the Mindbreak Trap does nothing. As if that wasn't enough, we're talking about a card that needs to sit dormant in your hand, and you're running 4 Liliana of the Veil and 4 Smallpox.

[ntropy]

@ Dolphy
Sadly I do not have access to Nether Voids at the moment. I'd love to run them. You've given me a lot to think about. I will definitely try out the Tabernacle add, and I will look at Infest over E. Plague. You're right about the Surgical Extraction/Chalice of the Void thing of course, I'm going with the theory that my first Chalice vs Storm is on 0. I have no idea what the meta will be, but I know my friend is on TES and it's a small tourney. The small meta thing is why I'm worried about random aggro. This isn't some big event where I will face alternating RUG and Stoneblade matchups. Beyond Jace, what would you bring Needle in against? Sneak Attack? Candelabra? Sensei's Divining Top? Aether Vial? A lot of people have Krosan Grips in their Boards. What is the primary target there? Sneak Attack, Leyline of Sanctity, Top? I can ask questions all night:) Thanks!

[beez]

With 2 Krosan Grips in the board and 4 Abrupt Decays in the main, I feel very confident against Counterbalance decks and decks that have some strong artifacts and enchantment s, or opposing Chalice even.

But Dolphy does make some good points, and it is true that Needle takes care of a lot of random problems too, and potentially earlier in the game. Ratchet Bomb is versitile and effective too. 4-6 of that group of cards could do you as part of the board.

I try to go after land destruction really hard against decks with Planeswalkers, make the land accquisition very difficult where they side them out as too slow and expensive.

With Sneak Attack/Blood Moon cleaning up recently, it may be best to add a Pithing Needle or two, probably losing one of the two Krosan Grips. Also I hate to have to add a basic forest, but Moon effects seem to be on the upswing at the moment.

[ntropy]

Alright! Report Time!

I ended up with this:

4 abrupt decay
4 sinkhole
4 smallpox
4 liliana of the veil
4 chalice of the void
4 mox diamond
4 hymn to tourach
3 life from the loam
2 sylvan library
1 pox
1 nether spirit
1 syphon life
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
4 verdant catacombs
4 bayou
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 bojuka bog
1 cabal pit
1 tabernacle at pendrell vale
1 swamp
1 forest

Sideboard:

4 sphere of resistance
4 infest
3 surgical extraction
2 ratchet bomb
2 pox

Thanks for everyone's input on the deck and sideboard, it was a great help.

Lost Harbor Games in Westfield, MA was our host, and we ended up with 10 players - 5 rounds of swiss, cut to top 4, prizes for top 2.

Round 1 - Kevin with Zoo

I didn't take detailed notes, so this will be quick and dirty. Against Kevin, turn 2 Smallpox takes out Heirarch and land, and he never recovers. Game two was more of the same - I cut a Sinkhole, a Chalice, and my Syphon Life for 3 Infest. Zoo rolled over hard.

My sideboarding will appear pretty erratic, I was experimenting all day - I cut the SL because he runs Ooze, and I figured one less GY dependant card was good.

I win 2-0

Round 2 - Timothy with Grixis Tempo

Again, quick and dirty

1: I quickly put him to 0 lands, his deck doesn't run enough to recover, he scoops at 13 life and no permanents.

I board out one Sinkhole and one Life from the Loam for 2 Ratchet Bomb.

2: I mull to 6, fall behind to Lavamancer and Pyromancer, Ratchet Bomb gets stifled, I lose.

I board out the Bombs and the Libraries, in 4 Infest. Still experimenting.

3: I kept him off of land, and Infest plus Tabernacle was a blow out. He scooped at 5 life with no permanents.

I win 2-1, 2-0 overall.

Round 3 - Jeremy with Sneak and Show

1: He kept a hand that could have won with a land, but Sinkhole, Sinkhole, Smallpox, Smallpox meant he never got there.

I boarded out 4 Abrupt Decay, 1 Tabernacle, in 3 Surgical Extraction, 2 Pox.

2: I was able to chalice on 1 before any cantrips hit, but he drew into his Sneak Attack and Emrakul, GG

3: Surgical Extraction on Brainstorm was not enough. Show and Tell, Griselbrand hits, I might have been able to stay in it with Smallpox or Pox, but none were to be found. I also might have mixed these games up a little, my notes are just life totals...

I lose 1-2, overall 2-1

Round 4 - Sam with Affinity (No Ravagers, so Budget Affinity)

1: He started bashing with a fast start, but Sinkholes, Smallpoxes, and Abrupt Decays soon stabilized me. Chalice at 0 stopped Memnite. He scooped at 1 life and zero permanents.

I boarded out 2 Chalice, Sinkhole, Wasteland, Loam, Library for 4 Infest, 2 Surgical. They should have been the Bombs.

2: He mulls to 7, then 5, oops. I kept something awkward and lost to a metal swarm.

3: I got the Loam engine going with fetches, thinning all of my fetchables out of the deck, and Syphoning multiple times per turn after Hymn and Smallpox did their job. Again, he scoops at 1 life and no permanents.

I win 2-1, 3-1 overall

Round 5 - Ben with Shardless BUG

1: Ben mulls to 6. I shred his lands with everything - he never really recovered.

I board out 1 Chalice for 1 Infest.

2: I mull to 6. Ben gets a mighty board presence of Strixes and Agents, Lili and Jace. I pick up my cards.

I board out another Chalice and 2 Loams for 3 Infest.

3: This game goes very long, with a lot of disruption either way. We go to time, me with a Nether Shadow, him with 5 life. I Abrupt Decay his Tarmogoyf, swing in. I top-deck Syphon Life to seal the deal.

I win 2-1, 4-1 overall.

Top 4: Me, Ben, Jeremey, and Dan with Infect Stompy. I play Ben with Shardless BUG again.

1: I keep this hand: Liliana, Smallpox, Hymn, Mishra's Factory, Wasteland, Wasteland, Wasteland. Would you? It didn't work out for me, he landed DRS (I should have thought of that and mulled. My bad) I was able to Loam back a Wasteland for 4 wasted lands, but I never found a second black source.

I boarded out 2 Loams and 2 Chalices for 4 Infest.

2: I kept a turn 1 Chalice on 1, which resolved, but I could not find a second black source, and his Liliana closed me out.

I ended up 4-2 for the day, which is better than I ever did with Burn. It's good to be back with Pox.

My only mainboard change will be to cut one Life from the Loam. I like that the deck doesn't rely on it, and I'd like to squeeze one more disruption slot in. I will be continually messing with the sideboard, but something to know: Engineered Plague on Human is GG vs Grixis Tempo.

Props:
Lost Harbor Games.
Not being paired against Tanner with TES.
Tabernacle as the 61st card.

Slops:
Sneak and Show.
Sloppy Keeps.

Why I love Legacy: the metagame was as follows:

Loam Pox
TES
Zoo
Grixis Tempo
Sneak and Show
Affinity
Shardless BUG
Infect Stompy
B/G Pox (no Loam)
Mono-Black Zombies?

[beez]

Solid result, especially for a first try. Did you like the Chalice and Big Pox in there or would you rather have pinpoint discard and scroll? What situatons were best for Loam for you, and when did you not need it or want it? How well did it complement Sinkhole for you?

[ntropy]

To be fair I have a lot of experience playing Pox, it was just my first try since Smallpox was printed... I like the single Pox in the main, it's just some additional back-breaking disruption. I will be cutting one or both from the side. I loved the Chalices, they turn off much of the format, and people aren't expecting them. I think it's really a matter of preference, I used to run Ritual and Duress effects, that was also good. I like having the main-board hate for storm, it makes me feel better about that matchup. Loam was great at pressing my advantage. Once I wiped out their hand/board, Loam kept the ball rolling. I think I will cut one, because multiples are not great. They do help dig for wincons by aggressively dredging. I took them out when I though folks were bringing in GY hate, or when I needed to be faster and more proactive. I've got another shot coming in a couple of weeks. I'll let you all know how I do there as well. Sadly I'm missing both Providence Open and GP DC. Keep Poxing!

[Hardcore]

My deck feel quite stable now (Finally, after close to two years work.)
The latest changes of increasing the number of lands, and reintroducing top, have been good. (tnx to the poster who had a deck with 27 lands)
I went 3-1 last tuesday and 2-2 today. The later result could have been better, but I failed to remove sideboard cards from my maindeck, and lost first duel in the second game to that. Small errors like that can make a big difference for the rest of ones tourney. The deck still felt nice. I defeated Stifle-nought and dredge. Losing to shardless agent (inexperience) and some kind of blade deck (that SB error).

Playing three each of Nihilith and Tombstalker is good, they don't flood my hand as often now.
However this mean I am a little short on win cons. I am thinking of adding Gatekeeper of Malakir
They would replace therapies and probes. Still, changes will be small from now on; the deck feels good.
Also I MAY play next time without sideboard. I am only fighting non-combo anyway:rolleyes:


4 Bloodghast
3 Tombstalker
3 Nihilith

4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Pox
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Sickening Dreams

3 Darkblast
3 Gitaxian probe
3 The Rack
2 Sensei’s Divining Top

21 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage


Oh, and Sickening Dreams have been useful. Mostly as finisher yet but that will change.

[OmniStrata]

My deck feel quite stable now (Finally, after close to two years work.)
The latest changes of increasing the number of lands, and reintroducing top, have been good. (tnx to the poster who had a deck with 27 lands)
I went 3-1 last tuesday and 2-2 today. The later result could have been better, but I failed to remove sideboard cards from my maindeck, and lost first duel in the second game to that. Small errors like that can make a big difference for the rest of ones tourney. The deck still felt nice. I defeated Stifle-nought and dredge. Losing to shardless agent (inexperience) and some kind of blade deck (that SB error).

Playing three each of Nihilith and Tombstalker is good, they don't flood my hand as often now.
However this mean I am a little short on win cons. I am thinking of adding Gatekeeper of Malakir
They would replace therapies and probes. Still, changes will be small from now on; the deck feels good.
Also I MAY play next time without sideboard. I am only fighting non-combo anyway:rolleyes:


4 Bloodghast
3 Tombstalker
3 Nihilith

4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Pox
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Sickening Dreams

3 Darkblast
3 Gitaxian probe
3 The Rack
2 Sensei’s Divining Top

21 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage


Oh, and Sickening Dreams have been useful. Mostly as finisher yet but that will change.

With that many threats, I'd recommend a single Volrath's Stronghold and instead of Gatekeeper, go with Shriekmaw. I love its targetted kill and it can creature lock your foe with Stronghold if you just Evoke it all night long. But if your meta is Black creatures, Gatekeeper+Stronghold can work too.

[Hardcore]

Yeah, I have toyed with that idea. Thing is that it feels sort of 'indirect'. In other words; it is a control concept and is not improving my decks way of attack. *
(What the deck want to do is to cast pox after pox after pox after pox... I have considered naming it "S&M"^^)

The gatekeepers are useful, but added mainly because I wanted more dudes.


* this is why I don't play jitte in the main either.

[Copperhead]

Punishing fire gives you inevitability, but not versus combo and control. A big beater like Tombstalker would be better.

Lavaclaw Reaches is worse than mishras factory, imho. Three mana activation cost? And then you want to inflate it...

Last week I took out Lavaclaw Reaches and Punishing Fires and went with a traditional 4 Wasteland/4 Mishra's Factory build. That worked out better against UW Miracles, but cost me against Jund and Slivers(!). I'm going to try bringing back the Punishing Fires with Ghitu Encampments instead of Factories. Still more expensive to activate, but they provide colored mana and I feel like I still usually have spare mana (BB at least) to cast other spells.

I took the Tombstalker advice and added them in the board. Tombstalker would have won the match against UW Miracles except for singleton Terminus he had in the top 3 cards with an active Top. Sphere of Resistance has been awesome also so the plan against combo is Inquisition/Hymn and Sphere/Tombstalker. We'll see how that goes.

[OmniStrata]

Yeah, I have toyed with that idea. Thing is that it feels sort of 'indirect'. In other words; it is a control concept and is not improving my decks way of attack. *
(What the deck want to do is to cast pox after pox after pox after pox... I have considered naming it "S&M"^^)

The gatekeepers are useful, but added mainly because I wanted more dudes.


* this is why I don't play jitte in the main either.

More dudes? Mesmeric Fiend + Gatekeeper = Overkill! :cool: EtB effects sound like something you must abuse

[Dwell]

After reading a bit more, and removing mindbreak trap from my list I'm left with this.
I'm looking to take it to a 40ish man next weekend. Any thoughts?

1 Cursed Scroll
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sphere of Resistance

4 Lilliana of the Veil

1 Nether Spirit

2 Nether Void
2 Sylvan Library

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 Life From the loam
1 Innocent Blood
1 Thoughtseize

4 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Mishras Factory
4 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

SB
2 Ensnaring Brigde
4 Pithing Needle
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Dismember
3 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Infest

I think I might just cut the sphere of resistance for another Crucible now that i think of it.