[Primer/Deck] Pox

[OmniStrata]

Liliana's Trinity Prison! The response to a slower midrange meta...

Win Cons
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Nether Spirit
4 Mishra's Factory

Disrupt
4 Wasteland
4 Sinkhole
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach

Pox-like FX
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
1 Pox (I really wanted to run 2, :frown:)
4 Liliana of the Veil

Prison
1 Nether Void
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Ankh of Mishra

Mana
4 Dark Ritual
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 Swamp

Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Uba Mask
4 Engineered Plague
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction

Ankh's ability to lock out late game is amusing. At 5 hp, late game Fetchlands become unusable and dead topdecks. Early game, it carves large chunks of health from your enemies who want as many colors as possible. Sure it hurts us too, but we're Pox, and by laying it after our land drop, we keep the life point advantage. I was thinking of other ways to punish top-decked lands, but Polluted Bonds doesn't do enough for the steep mana cost.

Any suggestions on better prison pieces that cause enemy top decks to become garbage?

[zenitramleirdag]

@omnistrata

ha ha ha..you must be psychic! i was about to ask what your latest build looks like! :laugh:

anyway, i'm sticking to 2 copies of the big pox in the main right now because most of the players i seem to be going up against these days have a propensity to hide behind basics and daddy pox hits them!

i even considered running a singleton ghost quarter just for that but i'm afraid of diluting the mana base too much..so instead i'll stick with the 2 big pox configuration..

one change i made is the inclusion of a singleton crucible in the main.. :cool:

[OmniStrata]

@omnistrata

ha ha ha..you must be psychic! i was about to ask what your latest build looks like! :laugh:

anyway, i'm sticking to 2 copies of the big pox in the main right now because most of the players i seem to be going up against these days have a propensity to hide behind basics and daddy pox hits them!

i even considered running a singleton ghost quarter just for that but i'm afraid of diluting the mana base too much..so instead i'll stick with the 2 big pox configuration..

one change i made is the inclusion of a singleton crucible in the main.. :cool:

Ah Crucible, that takes me back. Even had a Loam Pox build a long time ago. I've abandoned those builds because in my experience, recovering from your Poxes is less productive than surviving under it and just continually disrupt your opponent. With Liliana, you now have an engine that mostly locks your foe out. Crucible builds tend to rely on Waste-lock and they draw the game out longer. For 3 mana, I'd rather do something to my opponent than try and dig myself out of my hole I dug. I even considered Bottled Cloister as an advantage engine, but that too was too much mana in an attempt to recover instead of BUTCHERING MY OPPONENT :laugh:

TL;DR - Crucible and Loam make games take longer instead of killing my foes, hence why I don't use 'recovery' cards in Pox anymore.

The first Pox thread had simple criteria for card inclusion. Cards must either disrupt my opponent, provide mana, or kill my opponent. I experimented with Sphere of Resistance in place of Hymn to Tourach, but my meta's too slow to effectively use it so I went back.

[Claymore]

Any suggestions on better prison pieces that cause enemy top decks to become garbage?


Not sure how well it would do, but Tainted Æther/Tainted Aether could be useful. It combos pretty well with Tabernacle alongside Loam/Wasteland.

[zenitramleirdag]

- Any suggestions on better prison pieces that cause enemy top decks to become garbage?

uhm, wand of denial? :confused:

sorry if it seems janky but a pseudo jace effect is nothing to sneeze at.. :cool:

[OmniStrata]

- Any suggestions on better prison pieces that cause enemy top decks to become garbage?

uhm, wand of denial? :confused:

sorry if it seems janky but a pseudo jace effect is nothing to sneeze at.. :cool:

Not when you're paying life like a madman. Ankh is a helluva weapon against Veteran Explorer [little bastard]. Knight of Reliquary doesn't like getting slapped by the ankh often either. :eek: Uba Mask is my answer to most top decks as it replaces the draw phase and guaruntees an empty hand for as long as it's in play. 4 mana to ensure an empty hand almost forever is hawt. It also rips counter decks and instant-loaded decks in two if it's the End of Turn flavor.

I believe the Black equivalent of a Fateseal could be Misinformation. Want to draw 3 useless cards for the next three turns? :tongue:

[zenitramleirdag]

i like misinformation..it can also slow down dredge and give you a good game against reanimator..

since we're talking about top decking, maybe null brooch? its a bit mana intensive especially since we're also nuking our lands, but it can put the opponent on a soft lock especially with liliana in play..

[Koby]

Out of curiosity, has there been any consensus regarding The Rack builds with a heavier emphasis on Pox to maintain parity?

[OmniStrata]

Out of curiosity, has there been any consensus regarding The Rack builds with a heavier emphasis on Pox to maintain parity?

The problem I've had with Rack based Discard builds is that lucky top decks can't be stopped. It's hard to cast a top-decked Jace Mind Sculptor if you've been wastelanding and sinkholing their manabase. But rack builds won't be able to stop him unless you intend to burn Rack damage on him for a few turns. Big CMC decks are supposed to have some problems fighting us. I've even attempted a test of a mana denial inclusive build using Sphere of Resistance in place of Hymn to Tourach, which I've now moved to the sideboard. Being able to hit BOTH land and hand is what Pox is about. TOTAL DISRUPTION! :cool:

[OmniStrata]

NEW tournament report! Games vs. ANT, Death & Taxes, Elves -> Drop
Deck has been changed to accommodate 1 main deck Eng. Plague. -1 Innocent Blood, +1 Eng. Plague.
Sideboard changed as well: -1 Sphere of Resistance -1 Uba Mask +2 Dystopia [this card is the bomb] Instead of Nether Void which I didn't own, I subbed Trinisphere, which didn't matter since it didn't show up in any game.

Game 1 Round 1 vs. ANT
I win the die roll, I Dark Rit into Liliana off of Urborg. His face's 5'o clock shadow looks grim. I see him drop Underground Sea, Lotus Petal, and LED. He gets his hand eaten by Liliana and top decked Inquisitions left and right. 3 Inq. of Kozilek where in my yard game 1, nasty. Mishra's Factory alone gets me my win.

Game 1 Round 2 I side out 3 Innocent Bloods, Eng. Plague, & 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal for 2 Surgical Extractions and 3 Relics of Prog. I never needed my sideboard. Dark Ritual into Liliana once again seals his doom. I've fought I think a dozen combo decks and my classic Pox build is undefeated vs. combo. I haven't fought Dredge yet since my Dredge buddy [coach] has left for Naval duty but I think that's the combo deck for me to fear. Mishra's + C. Scroll kills him quickly. He sided in 3 Leylines [he was short 1] and Helm of Obedience. He got his helm but no mana to feed it and no Leyline to start. I laugh maniacally inside as I shake his hand for a gg.

Game 2 Round 1 vs. Death and Taxes
I'm on the draw with turn 1 Liliana and I Discard Nether spirit. In 2 turns, he drops two Mother of Runes. My turn 2 involves Dark Rit + 2 swamps into Night of Souls' Betrayal. :laugh: He was unable to play Thalia or Phyrexian Revoker and butcher him with 2 1/1 Mishra's Factories.

Game 2 Round 2
He sticks an Aether Vial. I didn't board in anything, confident that I can still cut him down. By vialing in a Stoneforge, he manages to kill me with Nether Spirit fending off his Batterskull. Mirran Crusader murders me.

Game 3 Round 3 -> Brain fart of stupidity
I lose the game due to Pithing Needle naming something BESIDES Stoneforge Mystic [facepalm]. I boarded out all Inq.s and Hymns for 3 Eng. Plague, 3 Ensnaring Bridges, and 2 Dystopias. I never see my Dystopia and my mulliganing down to 5 cards didn't help :frown:

Game 3 Round 1 vs. Elves
I get Craterhoofed after fending off an opening slew of DRS with 2 Innocent Bloods and Smallpox. I brain fart on a Quirion Ranger when I attempt to Wasteland his Dryad Arbor only to have it bounced. I are angry... Side out all Inquisitions and Hymns. In comes 3 Ensnaring Bridge, 3 Eng. Plagues, and 2 Dystopia

Game 3 Round 2
I manage to stick a Liliana and discard/sac him once. 2 Engineered Plagues buy me time and he ends up playing a Viridian Shaman to sacrifice to Liliana. When I stick an Ensnaring Bridge in the face of a 9/9 Scavenging Ooze, he thinks for a second and scoops. So he has only 1 Shaman eh?

Game 3 Round 3. My deck is ARMED TO THE SKY with 3 Innocent Bloods, 4 Smallpox, 1 Pox, 4 Engineered Plagues, 3 Ensnaring Bridges, and 2 Dystopias and I still lost :(
Opening Engineered Plague off a Dark Ritual murders an Elvish Visionary and 0/1s his starter DRS. I REALLY hate Deathrite Shamans. A Glimpse of Nature gives him enough threats that 2 smallpoxes, 1 Liliana sac activation, and Engineered Plague wasn't enough. After my death I look at my next card and see....

drumroll... NIGHT OF SOULS' BETRAYAL!! HAD I GONE FIRST GAME 3 SOMEHOW, I WOULD HAVE WON! GAH! :mad:

Pros learned
Pithing on a DRS is vital. Spamming his ability is enough to kill anyone and I think more damage and card advantage was gained through that bitch than anything.
Combo Decks are a buy; free win :cool:

Cons
Even when set to super win against aggro tribal, being forced to mulligan sucks.

Overall: I didn't get crushed utterly at all this tournament [never lost 2 in a row w00t!] and I think I'm getting closer to my final build. The big maindeck lock pieces will be 1 of ea. Eng. Plague, Night of Souls' Betrayal, Ankh of Mishra, and Nether Void. At worst, I'd sub out the Ankh for Innocent Blood #4 again but I need more testing.

[beez]

Thanks for reminding about the Quireon Ranger land bounce. Easy to forget. And yes, Deathrite Shaman must always die.

[Hardcore]

My deck looks quite different today, but is essentially the same as Before. Disruption and dudes.
DRS have been added because it is one of the best black creatures in the format. I got over that it won't be monoB any more. It is not clear yet they fit in the deck, however.
Chalice seems a bit in the vogue again so I put it in my deck. This time i see three good reasons; 1) most other decks have cheaper spells, or key cards that cost only 1cc. Thus i am not hindered any since MY spells usually cost two or more. Technically I am blanking the spells of faster decks.
2)I feel permanent based disruption is superior to 1cc discard. 3) i can cast it turn two and with DRS have mana to pay for Daze. (In Rug matchups.)
Last tuesday I also had Liliana in the deck, but It is probably best to optimize the deck in one specific direction.
Liliana is Control.


4 Bloodghast
2 necroplasm
4 pack rat
2 tombstalker
4 deathrite shaman
2 filth

4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 pox
2 sickening dreams
4 chalice of the void
16 Swamp
3 Dakmor Salvage
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 umezawa's jitte

[Juice11]

Does anybody know where I could find Hoogland's list from SCG Milwaukee? Looked pretty solid.

[yuMi-]

Does anybody know where I could find Hoogland's list from SCG Milwaukee? Looked pretty solid.

I'm also interested in that.

[Claymore]

I couldn't find the list, but I found his match on mtgcoverage.com/index.php

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/517571946?t=579m20s

Its not quite a "Pox" list, more of a Loam Depths control deck with Sylvan Library, Liliana, Maelstrom Pulse, Abrupt Decay, etc.

[Juice11]

I'm also interested in that.

I actually just tweeted him, he said he was going to put up a tournament report with the list on the meadery later this week. So I would look out for that in the future.

[OmniStrata]

My deck looks quite different today, but is essentially the same as Before. Disruption and dudes.
DRS have been added because it is one of the best black creatures in the format. I got over that it won't be monoB any more. It is not clear yet they fit in the deck, however.
Chalice seems a bit in the vogue again so I put it in my deck. This time i see three good reasons; 1) most other decks have cheaper spells, or key cards that cost only 1cc. Thus i am not hindered any since MY spells usually cost two or more. Technically I am blanking the spells of faster decks.
2)I feel permanent based disruption is superior to 1cc discard. 3) i can cast it turn two and with DRS have mana to pay for Daze. (In Rug matchups.)
Last tuesday I also had Liliana in the deck, but It is probably best to optimize the deck in one specific direction.
Liliana is Control.


4 Bloodghast
2 necroplasm
4 pack rat
2 tombstalker
4 deathrite shaman
2 filth

4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 pox
2 sickening dreams
4 chalice of the void
16 Swamp
3 Dakmor Salvage
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 umezawa's jitte


DEATHRITE?! YOU TRAITOR HOW COULD YOU!! :mad: It doesn't need dual lands, it's still Mono-B. However, you now have a better game vs. GY based decks. DRS is also a kill condition that can feed off the Poxes you pitched I guess. I distinctly remember an enemy DRS chucking my Nether Spirit from my yard. I really hate how DRS dodges spinning Darkness...

An intimidating list I think.

As far as my deck is concerned, I've removed the miser Ankh of Mishra for the 4th Innocent Blood. The lockout condition is too narrow and I'm not 24 spells Land Destruction Pox. Though perhaps, if my meta had more high-speed clock decks, I'd consider it. If you had the cards, what would they be?

4 Wasteland
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Rancid Earth
4 Blight? :laugh: or Befoul?

[beez]

My deck looks quite different today, but is essentially the same as Before. Disruption and dudes.
DRS have been added because it is one of the best black creatures in the format. I got over that it won't be monoB any more. It is not clear yet they fit in the deck, however.
Chalice seems a bit in the vogue again so I put it in my deck. This time i see three good reasons; 1) most other decks have cheaper spells, or key cards that cost only 1cc. Thus i am not hindered any since MY spells usually cost two or more. Technically I am blanking the spells of faster decks.
2)I feel permanent based disruption is superior to 1cc discard. 3) i can cast it turn two and with DRS have mana to pay for Daze. (In Rug matchups.)
Last tuesday I also had Liliana in the deck, but It is probably best to optimize the deck in one specific direction.
Liliana is Control.


4 Bloodghast
2 necroplasm
4 pack rat
2 tombstalker
4 deathrite shaman
2 filth

4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 pox
2 sickening dreams
4 chalice of the void
16 Swamp
3 Dakmor Salvage
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 umezawa's jitte


I've been using Chalice again too and liking it. I find it protects Loam a bit from at least half of grave hate, keeps tops and brainstorm from finding answers. Blanks Deathrite and Delver after you kill the early one if you dont get Chalice down early. Works well with Mox Diamond. Chalice can also protect our few critters from Swords to Plowshares as well.

[beez]

@OmniStrata
I guess Rancid Earth due to Threshold. Even better now that TNN is a thing.

[Holly]

@OmniStrata
I guess Rancid Earth due to Threshold. Even better now that TNN is a thing.

Not really since it doesn't affect your opponent TNN'S (as long as you're the chosen player) since the damage will be prevented.

[Brains468]

Hello I'm relatively new to pox and have been building it for a few months now. I keep tweaking it and haven't found just the right mix though. I do however really like pack rat because it makes all dead draws into useful tokens, and the tokens can be made even while nether void is in play. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
4 wasteland
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 Mishra's factory
13 swamp

4 hymn
4 IoK
3 dark ritual
4 sinkhole
4 smallpox
4 innocent blood
2 cursed scroll
4 liliana of the veil
3 pack rat
1 crucible of worlds
1 nether void
1 the abyss

Sideboard
1 the abyss
1 nether void
2 perish
2 massacre
2 toxic deluge
2 null rod
3 leyline of the void
2 ensnaring bridge

[beez]

Not really since it doesn't affect your opponent TNN'S (as long as you're the chosen player) since the damage will be prevented.

Oh, I misrembered it as -1/-1 rather than 1 targeted damage.

[OmniStrata]

Oh, I misrembered it as -1/-1 rather than 1 targeted damage.

Protection includes damage. So Rancid Earth will not hit TNN sadly. However, since we're spending lots of our time causing sacrifices, TNN should never be a problem to begin with. Main decking Night of Souls' Betrayal and a single Engineered Plague has helped me considerably in any match up. It's like a permanent Infest in some cases vs. certain decks.

[Hardcore]

I fought Miracles, show/lands, goblins and PiF yesterday. With luck I went 2-2.

PiF is actually quite favorable so I won't say much about that. Stuff like thorns and surgicals are powerful.

Miracles is still a riddle I haven't found the solution to. I had lots of hate in my artifacts, and necroplasm killed a bunch of angel tokens. Still, only circumstances allowed them to have effect.

Show/lands was about drawing big pox whenever my opponent had four lands play.
I was lucky and that was that.
Early rat put on much pressure.

Goblins. Anti-combo against anti anything .
He didn't need to DO anything, only play creatures.
This guy played Mud last time so I was not prepared for the type of deck.


Some comments in cards:

Chalice hit cards in every deck in the format. HOWEVER, this not mean they are worth to play in every duel.

DRS is better in other decks (BG), or an environment with fair decks. The drain ability is something I rarely got to use when fighting combo.

RAT is hard to use. Often you do not have mana to play disruption and make more rats at the same time.

I put arena in play a lot. Had no trouble poxing while it was in play. Possibly the pox effect added to the value of arena.

[Hardcore]

The deck looked like this:

4 Bloodghast
2 necroplasm
4 pack rat
2 tombstalker
4 deathrite shaman
2 filth

4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 pox
2 sickening dreams
4 chalice of the void
16 Swamp
3 Dakmor Salvage
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 umezawa's jitte

[OmniStrata]

The problem with your Pack Rats aggro design is that Liliana allows us control decks to use Cursed Scroll [same activation cost mostly] and she lets the disruption continue. It was a problem with older builds like Phyrexian Totem. Heck, even the Mishra's eats 2 of our mana to punch when we also need said mana to disrupt.

Maybe you should raise your land count in place of the DRS?

[Hardcore]

The plan was to go back to dark rituals instead of DRS.

[Hardcore]

Something like this

4 Bloodghast
3 necroplasm
4 pack rat
3 the rack
2 tombstalker

4 dark ritual
4 Smallpox
4 chalice of the void
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 pox
2 phyrexian arena
2 sickening dreams

18 Swamp
3 Dakmor Salvage


I am thinking I should run only two the rack, and get more creature kill.

[Hardcore]

Another idea is a singleton hatred vs combo.

[OmniStrata]

Another idea is a singleton hatred vs combo.

:eyebrow:

Pox naturally decimates combo decks, but your deck isn't the norm. Hatred costs far too much. The fact that you'd need 2 Dark Rituals to make it work means the combo deck just butchers you and you mulligan harder. Inquisition, Hymn, and Dark Ritual owns combo. Though it's true that Chalice can deal with Combo's 0 cmc cards, Chalice needs Dark Rit turn 1 to be maximized. I find the 1 cmc cards in a combo deck the most dangerous ones (BS cantrips).

You've got so much damage in the deck, is your clock not fast enough?

I love how Liliana turn 1 off a Dark Rit causes most combo decks to just collapse. Turn 1 Liliana [+1] followed by Turn 2 Hymn and [+1] again is auto lose for any combo deck that isn't Dredge. :cool:

[Chatto]

Turn 1 Liliana [+1] followed by Turn 2 Hymn and [+1] again is auto lose for any combo deck that isn't Dredge. :cool:

And very hard to recover from for most decks in general :smile:

Anyone already found the list of Jeff Hoogland? Still searching, but nothing so far

[OmniStrata]

Tournament report! W00t! improvement! 2 wins vs. Punishing Jund & RUG Thresh, 1 draw vs UW SF Mystic, 1 loss vs. Manaless Dredge (yes it's here 0_0)

Didn't write much in my notes, got a strong feel for the meta now and have fine tuned my deck to a razor's edge.

Game 1 vs. Manaless Dredge
Since I won the die roll, I went first, since I didn't know what deck he was playing. Game 1 I get rocked by a 30 dmg Flayer of the Hatebound Trigger due to Golgari Grave Troll being Dread Returned with 30 creatures in the yard... OWCH

Board out: 4 Hymn to Tourach, 4 Smallpox, 4 Sinkhole, 1 Pox
Board in: 3 Engineered Plague, 3 Ensnaring Bridge, 2 Pithing Needle (for Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian activations), 2 Surgical Extraction, 3 Relic of Progenitus

Game 2 I managed to Relic away about 20 cards, but he still managed to Dredge through and Ensnaring Bridge was Cabal Therapied away. I died to some 1/1 Zombies [yay Plague] after getting walloped for 17 using the Flayer + Gravedigger Troll setup. Loss...
----------------------
Game 1 vs. UW Stoneforge Control
He's on the play, and I managed to Wasteland and Sinkhole his first 4 land drops within 6 turns, sadly, the disruption stops there, he manages to stick a Stoneforge Mystic that gets killed by Liliana, however, his True Name Nemesis gets me killed. I vow vengeance with my Sideboard

Board out: 4 Dark Ritual, 1 Trinisphere
Board in: 3 Engineered Plague, 2 Pithing Needle

Game 2 vs. UW I win due to Pithing on Stoneforge and consistently having Liliana butcher his Vendillion Cliques and True Name Nemesis. Mishra's Factory + Nether Spirit give a good beating.

Game 3 goes to Draw with nobody dying. We just took too long... gah* Control vs. Control, it happens...
------------------------
Game 1 vs. Punishing Jund
I remember this may / may not use Bloodbraid elf after seeing his Grove of the Burn willows. I Wasteland, Sinkhole, and Smallpox him mercilessly and at the end of the game, he's lost 7 land and with Trinisphere on the field and 2 fetchlands, he dies to my Cursed Scroll. My inner Planeswalker grins intensely.

Board out: 4 Dark Ritual
Board in: 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Surgical Extraction

Game 2
I draw the tits. Each Tarmogoyf he plays gets sacrificed to the great Goddess. He tries to loop me with Punishing Fires+Grove but my Cursed Scroll is winning the race. Wastelands come up and by the end of the game, I count 4 Wastes, 3 Sinkholes, 1 Pox, and 2 Smallpox in the yard. A golden play involved him sacrificing a Wasteland to Smallpox only to have it Surgically Extracted on a gamble. He had another Waste in his hand that he needed but I Extracted it HARD. Without mana, the win is practically mine. Very happy with this performance.
-------------------------
Game 1 vs. Threshold -> I learn that I have a very tiny chance of being 4th place so instead of dropping with 1-1-1, I decide to stay hoping for a stomp win. I get RUG ^_^
However, my deck decided that after breastfeeding me topdeck orgasms fighting Jund, it says F-you Omni, you get to Mulligan to 5 with ONLY Urborg, have it Wastelanded, and see NO LANDS for 7 turns while Mongoose and unflipped Delver have their way with you. I get a swamp late in game, attempt to go double Dark Ritual, but the first 1 gets dazed. My hand? --> 2 Innocent Blood, 2 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Dark Ritual, 1 Sinkhole... :mad: I swear to myself, MULLIGAN HARDER!!

Board out: 4 Dark Ritual, 1 Engineered Plague, 1 Hymn, 1 Sinkhole, 1 Liliana
Board in: 2 Surgical Extraction, 3 Relic of Progenitus, 3 Ensnaring Bridge

Game 2: I'm rocking hard with an opening Ensnaring Bridge off of Dark Ritual. I predicted correctly he had no FoW so I discover him Pondering for cards. *Light bulb - he needs land...* My Inquisition of Kozilek confirms a 1 land hand. RUG must NEVER keep 1 land hands vs. Pox. He learns why after I kill him with Cursed Scroll behind a pair of Ensnaring bridges.

Game 3: I completely obliterate his mana base. I found myself keeping an opener with Urborg, Mishra, 2 Wastes, 2 Sinkholes, and a Smallpox. After he opened with a Delver, he never saw his mana again. I once again hide behind an Ensnaring Bridge after he manages to stick 2 lands. His new Tarmogoyf helplessly twiddles his thumbs. Liliana does some heavy lifting as well keeping his hand empty and killing Delver after Delver. Cursed Scroll flings four letter words at his dome for the kill.

Pros:
A much better record than any of my previous tournaments at this card shop.
The look on people's faces when they realize they CAN'T SIDEBOARD AGAINST ME AT ALL! :eek:
All my foes are good sports able to just remain polite despite having no mana. Love me some LD!

Cons:
My GY hate needs help. I'll be swapping it for new stuff. And now, the current DECK -->

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
1 Pox
1 Trinisphere (to be replaced with Nether Void... :cool:)
1 Engineered Plague
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Nether Spirit

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 Swamp

Board
2 Pithing Needle
2 Dystopia (This card is sweet sauciness when there's few stuff on the field. I even pay 1 life just to prevent them from playing anything a 2nd time. Liliana does the rest. Deals with Enchantments!)
3 Engineered Plague
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Leyline of the Void
3 Grafdigger's Cage (Need this vs. GSZ for sure...)

[Chatto]

Nice one Omnistrata! Your list looks sweet :)

On other news: not sure this is THE list, but found a recent Loam Pox list of Jeff Hoogland, and boy does it look sweet! Not your average list, mind you:

Creature (1)
1x Nether Spirit

Sorcery (12)
3x Life from the Loam
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Smallpox
4x Thoughtseize

Instant (8)
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Crop Rotation
1x Darkblast
2x Entomb

Enchantment (1)
1x Sylvan Library

Artifact (7)
1x Batterskull
1x Crucible of Worlds
3x Mox Diamond
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Sensei's Divining Top

Planeswalker (4)
4x Liliana of the Veil

Land (28)
2x Barren Moor
3x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Buried Ruin
1x Cabal Pit
2x Dark Depths
1x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
3x Swamp
2x Thespian's Stage
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
1x Darkblast
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Duress
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Pernicious Deed
3x Pithing Needle
3x Sphere of Resistance
2x Surgical Extraction

(Source: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/loam-pox-03-04-14-1/ )

Now I don't know wether or not this is legit, but either way the list looks different from what I've seen sofar

[beez]

An intetesting mix. Has a bit of a toolbox aspect to it.

[beez]

Your tourney report was an enjoyable read, Omni. I guess I need to figure out manaless Dredge too, it looks like that version is here to stay, not just a budget one.

[OmniStrata]

I'd consider manaless dredge the most dangerous form for now since it has that CitP trigger that Ensnaring Bridge can do nothing about. In fact, I think that's really all it needs to kill you. The other forms of Dredge I distinctly remember killing me with combat step. After some discussion with other players, and remembering that Nether Spirit doesn't work with Grafdigger's Cage, I've changed my GY hate to...

2 Leyline of the Void
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Graffdigger's Cage

I really like how Relic can trigger it's Omni-Tormod's effect while tapped and I can use it in response to my 2nd Nether Spirit dying while 1 is in the yard, AND draw a card. Love cantripping. I shall remain grateful nobody runs Burn in my meta yet.

[vizari]

I'd consider manaless dredge the most dangerous form for now since it has that CitP trigger that Ensnaring Bridge can do nothing about. In fact, I think that's really all it needs to kill you. The other forms of Dredge I distinctly remember killing me with combat step. After some discussion with other players, and remembering that Nether Spirit doesn't work with Grafdigger's Cage, I've changed my GY hate to...

2 Leyline of the Void
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Graffdigger's Cage

I really like how Relic can trigger it's Omni-Tormod's effect while tapped and I can use it in response to my 2nd Nether Spirit dying while 1 is in the yard, AND draw a card. Love cantripping. I shall remain grateful nobody runs Burn in my meta yet.

I was having a bit of trouble with manaless Dredge for the reasons you mentioned. I see it *a lot* on MTGO but after boarding 4 LotVs, its a free win every time I see it. Leyline isn't bad versus Goyf/DRS builds either. And of course, Reanimator/Loam strategies. I wouldn't run Pox without 4 Leylines due to our main relying heavily on discard which is largely irrelevant against them.

[OmniStrata]

I was having a bit of trouble with manaless Dredge for the reasons you mentioned. I see it *a lot* on MTGO but after boarding 4 LotVs, its a free win every time I see it. Leyline isn't bad versus Goyf/DRS builds either. And of course, Reanimator/Loam strategies. I wouldn't run Pox without 4 Leylines due to our main relying heavily on discard which is largely irrelevant against them.

I used to think that myself, until people's anti-gy hate sideboards started bouncing my leylines. A mix of GY hate gives you immunity from Extirpate like effects and if your hate gets bounced, which happens a lot to me, it can be easily recast. I suppose I could run 4 Leylines and 1 Cage [Cage stops GSZ which is very crucial]

[vizari]

I used to think that myself, until people's anti-gy hate sideboards started bouncing my leylines. A mix of GY hate gives you immunity from Extirpate like effects and if your hate gets bounced, which happens a lot to me, it can be easily recast. I suppose I could run 4 Leylines and 1 Cage [Cage stops GSZ which is very crucial]

Dark Depths builds don't really have many answers for LotV since it's not Abrupt Decayable. I often board in Ensnaring Bridge as well versus Reanimator. The thing is, even if they bounce Leyline, it gives us a turn or two to commence shredding their hand. I like Pithing Needle against manaless Dredge too for Phantasmagorian. It's not bad to keep in Thoughtseize/IoK as well to have them discard their Street Wraiths/other non dredgers. And I'm sure you know this, but, always choose to go second against the manaless version as it nets you an extra card.
YMMV though, I run G/B Pox with 4x Chalice of the Void which stops Reanimator cold. Running surgical/extirpate is a nonbo with Chalice, otherwise I might at least consider it an option.

[Hardcore]

During Easter weekend there will be a major gaming convention in town. Lots of magic too, ofc.

This may be the list I bring:

4 Bloodghast
3 necroplasm
4 pack rat
2 the rack
2 tombstalker

4 dark ritual
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 pox
1 chain of smog
4 Liliana of the veil
2 sensei's divining top

20 Swamp
3 Dakmor Salvage


Sideboard would be

3 Darkblast
4 thorn of amethyst
4 surgical extraction
+3 free slots

[OmniStrata]

Sideboard would be

3 Darkblast
4 thorn of amethyst
4 surgical extraction
+3 free slots

For your free slots, I'd suggest giving Shadow of Doubt a shot. Unless your meta runs no fetchlands, GSZ, or tutors. :cool:

[Hardcore]

Went 3-1 today in the local tourney. Low turnout considering the coming weekend events. Only ten players. Still the competition is good making it a valuable exercise.

I made some changes

4 Bloodghast
2 necroplasm
4 pack rat
3 the rack
2 tombstalker

4 dark ritual
4 Smallpox
3 darkblast
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 pox
4 Liliana of the veil

20 Swamp
3 Dakmor Salvage


Sideboard

4 surgical extraction
4 thorn of Amethyst
3 phyrexian arena
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3 engineered plague


My first opponent played a Modern token deck.
I won first game easily, but was forced to take the deck more seriously when I lost rather quickly to a two-card combo. It was a white creature that untapped whenever another creature enter play, and a red enchantment that enabled a creature to tap to make hasty elemental tokens.
Liliana prevented a repeat. 2-1

Second I steamroll a shardless agent deck. In hindsight that is weird; used be a hard match -up. Go figure. 2-0

At this point I feel the odds are good to go 3-1 despite next up is the local RUG player.
I lose first to mongoose, but win second thanks to the rack. My opponents creatures are faster than mine however, and they are backuped with counter spells. This win him the game.
1-2

Lastly I am paired against an Ad Nauseam deck with burning wish.
First game he make 12 goblins on turn one. gg
Next he play AN on turn one to which I answer with surgical and remove his dark rituals. He stop draw card at two life. Because her failed draw any petal or LED he passes turn to me. I play land, bloodghast, and attack for lethal.
Final game of the duel, and day, is exceptional.
Turn one my opponent wish for empty the Warren's and make 14 goblins. Uh-oh!
Best to top deck Necroplasm to play with my ritual or its over. I do.

Overall the deck feels OK. Putting Darkblast back in was a good decision. Same with the rack.
I'll add a third Necroplasm ASAP.
The sideboard will probably lose Arena's in favour of 1 cc discard. It is quite necessary to know my opponents hand when they play RUG and miracle.

[Chatto]

Congrats! You had some tough matchups! A question: how did Pack Rat perform?

[Hardcore]

Rat very rarely get huge. What make him great is the potential he has. Think of him as black lord of Atlantis. Decks that do badly against merfolk have trouble handling the rat that multiplies.

[zenitramleirdag]

yeah, i'm also curious to hear about how the rats fared especially since hardcore's running 4 big poxes..

wow! hardcore's list has got to be one of the versions with the fastest clock! take a look at that threat suit!

[Hardcore]

@zenit..., yeah, fast for a pox deck;-)
However it really it is suboptimal; a proper suicide deck would be faster, and a nethervoid type have a better control ability.
Still, suicide would have inferior creatures to Delver, and nethervoid too expensive cards.
In short, it is built for the meta with My budget.

I could go play burn I guess, but don't see much fun in that!

[zenitramleirdag]

hardcore, what did you mean by "inferior"..did you mean suicide black have smaller creatures? inferior in terms of utility? :confused:

[Hardcore]

Inferior in terms of casting speed. Delver of Secrets can be cast turn one, and be protected by counter magic from there until are dead.

[Rummelboxer]

Hi!
I went 5 – 2 with LoamPox at a 80men tournament last saturday.

At friday evening, I played a few games with my friends. I had to face Tezzerator, manaless dredge and a combo-homebrew. Until friday, I had a monoB-list. It was like:

4 Liliana otV
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark ritual
3Thoughtseize
3 IoK
3 Cursed Scroll
3 Innocent Blood
2 Nether Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Entomb
1 Necroplasm
1 Netherspirit
1Darkblast

Lands
13 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Mishras Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

I felt pretty comfortable with this list until I had to play against Tezzerator. Ensnaring Bridge and a Pithing Needle on Cursed Scroll were enough to deal with all my winconditions. So I thought about an green-splash for Decay and Sylvan Library. Decay to deal with those cards which a monoB-list can´t handle and the Librarys to be in a better position when the topdeck-wars start.
So my friends and I worked on the following list with which I would start on saturday:

4 Liliana otV
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Mox Diamond
3Thoughtseize
3 IoK
3 Decay
2 Tombstalker
2 Sylvan Library
2 Life from the Loam
2 Nether Void
1 Entomb
1 Necroplasm

Lands
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
3 Mishras Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Stage
2 Dark Depths

Sideboard:
4 Vampire Hexmage
2 Pithing Needle
3 Surgial Extraction
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Engineered Plague

Just three Factories and the Depth-Combo felt a little bit less to me, so I added two Tombstalkers which should work out pretty good in most of the matchups.
The 4 Hexmage in SB were the idea of a friend of mine (thanks to Holly) and performed very good at G2 and G3.
Just a short MU-description. I didn´t took any notes on saturday.

Round 1 Maverick 2 – 0

Round 2 Miracles 0 – 2

Round 3 my friend (here: Holly) with manaless dredge 2 – 1

Round 4 Kobold-Storm 2 – 0

Round 5 Deadguy Ale 2 – 0

Round 6 ANT 2 – 1

Round 7 Esperblade 1 – 2

Thanks to Holly for his Sideboard-advices and to Hardcore (I saw Necroplasm the first time in your lists. It was my card-of-the-day at saturday :-D )

Any questions?

[Hardcore]

I thought it would be interesting to show how my deck has evolved in a year, more specifically from GothCon tourney to GothCon tourney.



2013

4 Bloodghast

4 Nihilith
2 Nether Spirit
4 Tombstalker

4 Smallpox
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Pox
4 Duress
1 Buried Alive
4 Innocent Blood
3 Darkblast

20 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage

SIDEBOARD

4 Surgical Extraction
2 Powder Keg
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Jinxed Idol
3 Perish

2014

4 Bloodghast
2 Necroplasm
4 Pack Rat
2 The Rack
2 Tombstalker

4 Smallpox
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Pox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Darkblast

19 Swamp
3 Dakmor Salvage

SIDEBOARD

4 Surgical Extraction
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Pox
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Engineered plague




Perish is gone, but so is many greenish decks. (Haven't seen maverick in ages). Jinxed Idol was an idea to fight Miracles, a deck that is quite rare. Away with the idol. Nihilith is replaced by Pack Rat for a swarm ability, and the rack is Another way to win that cannot be bolted or sworded. Obviously I had not acquired Liliana last time:), still she is not an auto include. One must consider what she does in the deck. This is aggro Control so why not.

Inquisition of Kozilek may be replaced by Gitaxian Probe. (I included IoKs for the information gathering ability foremost.) This would allow me to run four of Pox and Liliana. Need to test it some Before the tourney tomorrow.

[OmniStrata]

Perish is gone, but so is many greenish decks. (Haven't seen maverick in ages). Jinxed Idol was an idea to fight Miracles, a deck that is quite rare. Away with the idol. Nihilith is replaced by Pack Rat for a swarm ability, and the rack is Another way to win that cannot be bolted or sworded. Obviously I had not acquired Liliana last time:), still she is not an auto include. One must consider what she does in the deck. This is aggro Control so why not.

Inquisition of Kozilek may be replaced by Gitaxian Probe. (I included IoKs for the information gathering ability foremost.) This would allow me to run four of Pox and Liliana. Need to test it some Before the tourney tomorrow.

How bad is your meta that you'd pay life to just look at your enemy's hand [draw a card] rather than look at their hand and rip down a win con? With seven Pox effects and less than 24 land do you have enough mana to max out the use of Pack Rat? Does GY hate punish you severely or are you able to get around it? Ah, SDT in the board. Usually you place anti-X cards in your sideboard, what's SDT supposed to be used against? Wouldn't SDT be better main deck? Liliana is not an auto-include :eyebrow:?

I don't mean to sound like an ass but your card choices are stumping me. I understand you're on a budget, but there's another forum for decks like that.

Though for threats, since you don't run 'fancy lands', I'd suggest bringing back Chimeric Idol. He does more damage than Necroplasm or Bloodghast and it seems to me you want to butcher your opponent's health as Aggro Pox. In which case you need better than 2 damage/turn clocks.

I do understand that you're trying to overcome Pox's 'symmetric disrupt' by flooding your side of the board with threats. After all, classic prison Pox builds have problems with 'too many threats'. The hurdle I see in that idea is the lack of resources issue. Pox in any form will have less resources available and getting all those threats online, especially Pack Rat ability seems difficult.

[beez]

Inq and Thoughtseize give info and rip cards. No need to thin deck with probe either. Not that kind of deck. Maybe run Mutavault to help with Pack Rat. Good to see you got some Lillies.

[Hardcore]

Probe cost no mana, this is important at start of games. I already have nine 1 cc spells to cast turn one and do not need to up that to ten.

The draw effect let me do some dredge tricks.

Also probe is not a dead card late game.

Finally life loss is rarely what make me worry.

Oh, forgot! Playing blue probe may cause confusion in opponents expecting more orthodox builds.

[Hardcore]

I have considered boosting Pack Rat but it simply is not worthwhile. At best I have three in play due to only having mana to make one a turn. I could use one of those turns to play mutavault or another type of rat, of course, but what would be the point? Note however that three is enough to block and kill a goyf, or the opponent.

[OmniStrata]

Probe cost no mana, this is important at start of games. I already have nine 1 cc spells to cast turn one and do not need to up that to ten.

The draw effect let me do some dredge tricks.

Also probe is not a dead card late game.

Finally life loss is rarely what make me worry.

Oh, forgot! Playing blue probe may cause confusion in opponents expecting more orthodox builds.

Dredge tricks. Ok. Not a dead card? Well, instead of disruption, you're cantripping. I'd rather top deck an Innocent Blood, which I've noticed your deck can't run or a Cursed Scroll, or some other 1 mana card that will do something to disrupt/harm my opponent. Paying life is not worth drawing for in Pox. The best cards in Pox have only 3 goals: mana, damage, disruption. Ensnaring Bridge, Plagues, Dark Rits, all of these do something to your opponent. Things like bottled Cloister, Dark Confidant/Phyrexian Arena, do nothing against your opponent.

I think your 2014 list is probably fine since all those cards do Pox's big 3 requirements. Don't fall for normal card advantage, it's not worth it! :cry:

[ghostfire86]

I was wondering what people think of adding in 1 copy of grim tutor and 1 copy of The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale to the main board.

[Chatto]

Some people auto-include Tabernacle, it depends on your meta... not to mention your budget. I've seen people use it as a SB-card. It's a legit card for sure. I'm not so sure about Grim Tutor. Granted, it can fetch you every card in the deck, but is it really worth it? I've never considered it. Why not use Infernal Tutor (hellbend ain't that difficult for a deck like Pox), or maybe even Rhystic Tutor (after you killed/ destroyed the board)? If you got a Grim Tutor somewhere (I sure don't have one: budget and all that), I suggest you try it and let us know how it worked for you :smile:

[OmniStrata]

Tutors are for combo decks. Card disadvantage when you must win right now. The only disadvantage we have to run is Dark Ritual in case we run the risk of turn 2-3 death. Super fast aggro like Dredge, Elves, Merfolk, and Goblins need that turn 1 Engineered Plague or turn 2 Night of Souls' Betrayal. I don't remember any recent builds that used tutors to win.

We already throw away many cards and use virtual card advantage to win. Throwing away more after Dark Rituals' card disadvantage doesn't sound like a good investment for the deck.

[Holly]

You know what Grim Tutor does do you? It's no card disadvantage.

[Polish Tamales]

So my friend convinced me to drop by his campus and I found out that some of the EDH players there were also into Legacy.

So I decided to drop last week just to see how the meta was in their area. Seems like most of them had 1-3 decks, mostly some budget options like Dredge and Burn, but a few of them did have Show & Tell, Reanimator, & Canadian Thresh. They also told me that there were Legacy tournaments held at San Diego games and comics on weekends, so I might start preparing myself for that later this year.

Here's my current list:

1 Nether Spirit

4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
3 Dark Ritual
1 Darkblast
1 Entomb
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Infernal Tutor
3 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Raven's Crime
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 The Rack

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Mishra's Factory
7 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

2 Engineered Plague
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Extirpate
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Perish
2 Pithing Needle
1 Shrieking Affliction
1 Syphon Life
1 Toxic Deluge

So it's a slightly less linear version of the common build. I'm not entirely fixed on buying Bayous (yet), so it's relying more on a minor tutor package to get it through Game 1 and 2.

So the package follows with Entomb into:

Nether Spirit
Dakmor
Darkblast
Raven's Crime
Syphon Life (Game 2-3)

Through testing over the past year, I found myself drawing Dark Rituals in the late game where it was hardly needed. So I replaced it with a singleton Sensei's Top and I never looked back. It just out performed early-late games for me and I eventually added in Catacombs. The Fetchlands synergized well enough that Crucible of Worlds made a slot in the Main Board in addition to create Wasteland lock outs. Just to round out the list, (1) Infernal Tutor was added so I could find more relevant silver bullets when needed, or a win-con (The Rack/Scrolls)

The Side Board has been a pain trying to iron out. I wanted ways to react to Game 2/3 graveyard hate, so I had to drop Nether Spirits (G2/3) for something a bit more reliable. I thought about how back breaking Liliana's Rack was in Modern, so I decided to use Shrieking Affliction over Tombstalker. I avoided another copy of The Rack so I wouldn't be too prone to Artifact removal. I'm not sure if that's the best call since Engineered Explosives or even Chalice for 1 would just ruin my win-cons. So Syphon Life was added later if they did skim on GY hate. Or I could just add another Affliction to outrace?

I'm not sure if that's the correct call or if I should just add more pressure options G2/3, but let me know how you guys feel about it. I've been fooling around with Lili's Rack in Modern, so I dunno how sneaky it would to convert the SB with more Rack/Affliction effects.

Also, I normally had a mix of (1) Cursed Totem/(2) Ensnaring Bridges. I felt that it was a good splash against Sneak/Show, until I kept on getting Totems against Emrakul. It's hard to say if switching over to (3) Bridges is correct since I wanted options to lock out Deathrite/Elves and other match-ups. Maybe I have too much hate for it already since I have (2) Grafdiggers against Sun/Order and Pithing Needles.

[Hardcore]

I just found this article in another threadhttp://www.gatheringmagic.com/circle-predation-part-2-indepth/

The idea of "big spell" point to similarity to Jace when running Liliana.

[Polish Tamales]

I just found this article in another threadhttp://www.gatheringmagic.com/circle-predation-part-2-indepth/

The idea of "big spell" point to similarity to Jace when running Liliana.


Jace & Lili in context of being a big spell isn't the same thing.

Both cards are great when you're ahead on board, but they're drastically different cards when you're behind. Jace at least gives you another chance to dig for an answer. Compare that to forcing one sacrificed creature might make a difference with Lili, but not all the time. In addition to that, Jace is literally a win-con on his own, where as Lili needs as much support as possible to make her Ultimate more devastating.

Liliana is more of a strong support card that enhances what POX is trying to do, but not in the same weight division as Jace in context of a big spell. I can't imagine playing Pox without her now, so she definitely a staple in it.

[Hardcore]

I, otoh, can imagine doing that for just those reasons. Liliana does not do much for My deck, except being a strong, Black, card.
(Excellent observations btw.! )

Or put another way; Liliana, and nether void, give a deck Big Spell abilities and put it in that category.
This is fine for classic pox, but I think I would do better by being more focused.

[zenitramleirdag]

in my opinion, in whatever form a pox deck should come, whether it be mono black, with a splash(:g: or :w:), discard pox, LD pox, or even aggro pox..liliana should always be present..

[Hardcore]

Well, going by the article my deck would be a tempo deck working on the threat defense line. Ie. Protecting my threats with discard. Other tempo decks (Delver) have not enough mana to run planeswalkers, nor the need. Same for me I think.

[OmniStrata]

You know what Grim Tutor does do you? It's no card disadvantage.

Entomb is easier on the mana. What's a tutor?
Any Tutor: copy target card in your deck. Waste your turn doing nothing to your enemy if you're not a combo deck.

You're not disrupting, damaging, or generating mana with your tutor. We are not a combo deck. Well, ultimately it depends on your meta. If you're meta is all slo-mo decks, then tutor to your hearts content. When Craterhoof Elves and ANT and Helm of Obedience butcher you after the turn you tutor, don't say I haven't told you so. Ok, you're right that it's not card disadvantage. It's much worse: Tempo disadvantage.

Half my meta is combo decks that co$t 3x as much as my deck, and I eat combos for breakfast, thank goodness. :cool: If I had even a single tutor and wasted a turn on it, instead of Dark Ritualing Inqusition + Hymn, I'd be auto lossed.

[Polish Tamales]

Entomb is easier on the mana. What's a tutor?
Any Tutor: copy target card in your deck. Waste your turn doing nothing to your enemy if you're not a combo deck.

You're not disrupting, damaging, or generating mana with your tutor. We are not a combo deck. Well, ultimately it depends on your meta. If you're meta is all slo-mo decks, then tutor to your hearts content. When Craterhoof Elves and ANT and Helm of Obedience butcher you after the turn you tutor, don't say I haven't told you so. Ok, you're right that it's not card disadvantage. It's much worse: Tempo disadvantage.

Half my meta is combo decks that co$t 3x as much as my deck, and I eat combos for breakfast, thank goodness. :cool: If I had even a single tutor and wasted a turn on it, instead of Dark Ritualing Inqusition + Hymn, I'd be auto lossed.

Not all purposes of tutors are exclusively for combo lists. In some builds of Miracles, it allows you to hand pick a silver bullet from your SB games 2-3. In that type of deck, you're usually ahead on board anyway. If you're a careful player, you'll respect the combo decks before tapping out.

Infernal Tutor does seem like a solid choice for Pox. Depending on what you need for your win-con, you could double up, or find a specific one. Often times, it's not a wasted turn when your win-con is a 1-drop and it's not really a huge strain mid-game where you do need to apply a clock asap. 2cc on Infernal Tutor isn't bad when you consider it's conditions are tailored around Pox. In a top-deck position, it's an amazing option when you do draw it.

I like having options and flexibility to adapt to shenanigans. Either early game or late game.

I wouldn't honestly ever tap out to play a tutor unless I know I'm ahead on board. Under Chapin's theories, tempo is only worth what you can do with it. As long as Pox is assigned to it's primary role to disrupt my opponent's tempo, then Infernal Tutoring your win-con or silver bullet will help you close out the game, rather than prolonging it. Pox doesn't do well in games where it isn't applying pressure or if it's roles are switched midway.

[Chatto]

Tutors are great, even for a deck like Pox. But to be honest, we don't necessary need tutors, after all we are the ones to disrupt. We need a solid clock, one that's just a solid threat. We need something to dig with, while keeping the disruption up. Something like SDT or Sylvan Library for instance. If there was a black Brainstorm I would definitely consider it. A tutor, maybe, but Pox is not a deck that is in a hurry: you play with a grin and grind the game out.

[OmniStrata]

I had run Infernal Tutor before. A while ago, long before Liliana was a card. When I ran 4 Poxes in her place. My meta was mostly aggro and after a handful of games, I learned quickly that I needed to disrupt and kill enemy creatures faster. Can I use the tutor to find my silver bullet? Yes, I could. But I never ever had enough mana to cast the bullet after I tutored for it. I ended up dead.

I distinctly remember enlightened tutor being used against me as a supplement to CounterTop in order to place Blood Moon on top of the deck and counter my Liliana cast. Aside from that, can you name me 2 other control decks that need tutors? Tutors are for decks that need to win now, not 3 turns later. Pox doesn't run super fast clocks outside Tombstalker and Phyrexian Totem is too taxing for my meta.

TL;DR - Tutors slow you down when you're already slooww. What could you possibly tutor and cast on the same turn? Dark ritual chains into Nether Void or Night of Souls' Betrayal? lol :tongue: In my opinion, my decklist is too tight for tutors and my previous experience with them was bad.

[Hardcore]

A bit of success again, last night. The deck was crappy but I went 3-1.

First opponent played Mono black too. Unfortunately he was new to legacy and was running a Modern deck with devotion zombies. I suggested he should add some 1 cc discard, dark ritual and turn it into a black weenie deck.
Still, he seemed impressed by black power and that is good:-)

A win is always a good start of a tourney and I continued to feel good all the way. Even if actually losing next.
Rick plays 12 post with green splash. (It is probably better known under another name, whatever that is)
First game I won thanks to playing pox effects. The second I lost because not doing so when I could.
( I would have had to sacrifice my only creature in play, and discard a pox card from hand. I choose to see if I could get a better position before poxing)
Last game he put Leyline of sanctity in play, and that was that.

Third game I duelled Lars Wilhelmsson who has plated BG for a long time now. Goyf, confidant, DRS etc. I am not sure but I think there is a marit lage in there too.
It was two close games were Pack Rat showed why he has a safe place in the deck. Lars managed to sweep the board at one time with pernicious deed, but my dudes don't stay in the grave fur long.

My last opponent was very recent winner of Swedish Open, Maximilian. He played the deck known as the Patriot (UWR Delver). Like all Delver decks it can be tricky if it get out a Delver with counter backup. This is what happened in first duel and it took serious spell casting to win.
I played around his daze to play two big pox. This was actually in self defense to kill his Delvers but brought him to 8 life. I drew a bloodghast to finish him off.
The second duel Maximilian got SFM and batterskull in play. I stabilized the situation with Tombstalker and was not much worried even when he played True-name nemesis . I had plans to turn around the game, but he drew a lightning bolt and closed the game too fast.
Last game for the evening and Max thought hard about keeping his hand. It was a fetch land, 2-3 wasteland, a Delver, lightning bolt and iirc a ponder.
I know this because I played inquisition to get his lightning bolt. My hand was not great but after IoK I could safely play my Pack Rat. Ftw.

I said the deck was crappy.
4 Bloodghast
2 necroplasm
4 pack rat
4 the rack
2 tombstalker

4 dark ritual
4 Smallpox
4 pox
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 chain of smog

20 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage

Sideboard

4 surgical extraction
4 thorn of Amethyst
3 Liliana of the veil
3 dark blast
1 vengeful Pharaoh

[ghostfire86]

For those that are running nether spirit have you considered running cabal therapy instead of inquisition of kozileck? Adding to the fact it hits multiple and nether spirit is easily sacrificed without worry it seems ideal with exception to the fact that you must be well studied on the staples for every deck arch type to properly increase your chance of hitting a card on first turn. I am thinking of trying to run two ct in addition to iok and htt.

[OmniStrata]

For those that are running nether spirit have you considered running cabal therapy instead of inquisition of kozileck? Adding to the fact it hits multiple and nether spirit is easily sacrificed without worry it seems ideal with exception to the fact that you must be well studied on the staples for every deck arch type to properly increase your chance of hitting a card on first turn. I am thinking of trying to run two ct in addition to iok and htt.

Problem. Nether Spirit is run in Pox decks with 2 creatures tops. You don't want to sac a Mishra's to Cabal Therapy. TheRapists are players who have LOTS of threats. You do NOT want to cast Cabal Therapy, and then wait for the Spirit to come up to use its flashback. I've tested this with a 2 N.Spirit deck and if you use Duress-effect beforehand, it's ok, however the lack of creatures makes Therapy an inferior 1 cmc Hymn. The best Cabal TheRapists are Dredge players or Aggro-Junk / Nic Fit who have lots of expendable creatures you WANT to sac to it.

I think Hardcore's aggro pox with his slightly higher threat count could use it. In my opinion, you'd want 16-20 threats to maximize its potential, and that's out of Pox's reasonable range.

[zenitramleirdag]

For those that are running nether spirit have you considered running cabal therapy instead of inquisition of kozileck? Adding to the fact it hits multiple and nether spirit is easily sacrificed without worry it seems ideal with exception to the fact that you must be well studied on the staples for every deck arch type to properly increase your chance of hitting a card on first turn. I am thinking of trying to run two ct in addition to iok and htt.



i'm not saying it won't work, because IF you can time it correctly, then you might nab 2 cards from your opponent's hand..

but if i were to add another :b: spot discard spell to supplement the IOKs, i'd go for thoughtseize than cabal therapy..i'd prefer cabal therapy in decks that run creatures that can afford the sacrifice(bloodghasts) or want the sacrifice(abyssal persecutor)..

[OmniStrata]

i'm not saying it won't work, because IF you can time it correctly, then you might nab 2 cards from your opponent's hand..

but if i were to add another :b: spot discard spell to supplement the IOKs, i'd go for thoughtseize than cabal therapy..i'd prefer cabal therapy in decks that run creatures that can afford the sacrifice(bloodghasts) or want the sacrifice(abyssal persecutor)..

I'd go with Duress to prevent lifeloss. Pox can kill any creature that's not Tajuru Preserver or Sigarda Host of Herons.

[zenitramleirdag]

here's where i am right now:

4 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 smallpox
1 pox
4 innocent blood

4 liliana of the veil

1 nether spirit

3 cursed scroll

1 nether void
2 night of soul's betrayal



4 dark ritual
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 mishra's factory
4 wasteland
13 swamp


sideboard:
2 pithing needle
1 thoughtseize
1 trinisphere
3 engineered plague
3 ensnaring bridge
2 toxic deluge
2 extirpate
1 surgical extraction


i'm thinking of cutting an innocent blood and a scroll for 2 tombstalkers, what do you guys think?(especially you omnistrata, bcoz if i remember correctly, we are running almost simillar lists)
i would like to add more gravehate but i just don't know what to cut..meta in this store i sometimes go to is swarming with SnT and stoneblade variants so i'm thinking of replacing thoughtseize with another needle to neuter sneak attack..

i might enter a local tourney here tomorrow with this list..
i'm running a 61-decklist..

[Hardcore]

1 cc spot discard has the function of disrupting the opponent's game and gather important information. They do not provide card advantage. Therapy is way to get the first and the last, but at cost of not being an efficient way to get information.
You could focus on improving this of course, just don't forget time spent disrupting is time not spent winning.

[Hardcore]

Delirium skeins. I am considering this for two slots in my the rack/creature build.

[GradStudent]

Hey everyone,
New to legacy here. Just wondering how Pox stands compared to other top tier decks out there. I am looking to get back into magic and happen to have a playset of wastelands, and I do like me some discard. Thinking about starting to build a competitive Pox deck (mono black). It does seem to have some cards I can switch out for a modern version too. I did browse this thread and saw that pack rat build http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12858&iddeck=94287 which looked like fun. But no one else seemed to comment on it. Was looking to hear from some of you more experience pox players on where to start off if I do choose to go this route. Thanks for your help!

[Teluin]

Hey everyone,
New to legacy here. Just wondering how Pox stands compared to other top tier decks out there. I am looking to get back into magic and happen to have a playset of wastelands, and I do like me some discard. Thinking about starting to build a competitive Pox deck (mono black). It does seem to have some cards I can switch out for a modern version too. I did browse this thread and saw that pack rat build http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12858&iddeck=94287 which looked like fun. But no one else seemed to comment on it. Was looking to hear from some of you more experience pox players on where to start off if I do choose to go this route. Thanks for your help!

As of right now, Pox isn't a top tier deck. Who knows how good it becomes when Waste Not sees print, but the deck is fun as heck to play and CAN win.

[Hardcore]

Pox has not won a big tourney (IIRC) but that is more because few play it than because it is bad. Tier 1 deck it may not be, but then that is a highly suspicious concept in my opinion. It's more a rock-paper-scissor thing. It kills combo, and have decent games vs many other decks. Merfolk and goblins are perhaps the hardest match ups.

[OmniStrata]

@zenitra

I'd run Tombstalkers again if I didn't use Ensnaring Bridge in the board.

@Hardcore

Time spent disrupting is winning actually. Or in other opinions, not-losing. We're not combo or Aggro. We can't kill them on turn 2-3 consistently and we don't drop threats each turn to kill the opponent.

The "proper" Pox game in my opinion is when a judge or spectator walks past my table and notices my single threat and an enemy's empty board and hand, that means I did it right.

[zenitramleirdag]

Hey everyone,
New to legacy here. Just wondering how Pox stands compared to other top tier decks out there. I am looking to get back into magic and happen to have a playset of wastelands, and I do like me some discard. Thinking about starting to build a competitive Pox deck (mono black). It does seem to have some cards I can switch out for a modern version too. I did browse this thread and saw that pack rat build http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12858&iddeck=94287 which looked like fun. But no one else seemed to comment on it. Was looking to hear from some of you more experience pox players on where to start off if I do choose to go this route. Thanks for your help!

pox aint a tier 1 deck but it sure has some lopsided matches against many creature decks in the format especially if you tailor your sideboard for a specific meta..its strong against delver and other fair decks..one good thing about pox is there is almost no effective way to sideboard against it because it attacks all angles at the same time..but i would say the most fun thing about pox is the brewing..

the modern version of pox is also getting good results..it usually runs rack and/or afflictions..

[OmniStrata]

pox aint a tier 1 deck but it sure has some lopsided matches against many creature decks in the format especially if you tailor your sideboard for a specific meta..its strong against delver and other fair decks..one good thing about pox is there is almost no effective way to sideboard against it because it attacks all angles at the same time..but i would say the most fun thing about pox is the brewing..

the modern version of pox is also getting good results..it usually runs rack and/or afflictions..

That's the hilarious "complaint" I get at the local tournament. They look at their extra 15 and they mumble or write on their own faces, "how do I board against this thing?"

Some of the goofy ones use Anti-Yard against me but aside from Nether Spirit, my deck has no GY weakness. I'm not Dredge or Loam where I need the yard to murder you. Being almost totally creatureless also hurts decks that pack any form of creature removal. I think the only threat most people can board in against me is Pithing Needle.

[Chatto]

@ Gradstudent: I think Pox is one of the worst decks to start with in Legacy: once you're hooked you will want to try every build possible, because of the brewing :smile: And this will cost you a lot! But it is fun, and every win will be with a grin:cool:

On Pack Rat: I think the only one here who ever played the card is Hardcore, and his build isn't you average Pox-build.

[OmniStrata]

@ Gradstudent: I think Pox is one of the worst decks to start with in Legacy: once you're hooked you will want to try every build possible, because of the brewing :smile: And this will cost you a lot! But it is fun, and every win will be with a grin:cool:

On Pack Rat: I think the only one here who ever played the card is Hardcore, and his build isn't you average Pox-build.

My ideas on Pack Rat. Originally, I'd think it costs too much, but Cursed Scroll is essentially the same mana cost for ability use. The scroll for me is a defensive mainstay that dodges my own Pox effects. Pack Rat is a chump blocking token generator that will overrun your enemies in short time. I guess the beauty is that if you kill the card named Pack Rat, the tokens keep all abilities. The other thing is that normally, top decked Dark Rituals stink, but with either C. Scroll or the Rat, you still get use out of it.

[OmniStrata]

Another tourney! I got the bye in round 4 due to drops. 2 wins (including bye), 2 losses. Let's look... Deck was the same as before, except I changed my sideboard to Leyline of the Voids and a single Relic of Progenitus. [cantripping like a boss]

Game 1 Round 1, UW Stoneforge. A familiar foe.
He draws the tits and after I [on the draw] Innocent Blood his first SF Mystic, his second one hits the field. He manages to keep it alive by flashing in a Vendillion Clique in response to my smallpox. I'm not getting the LD I need to prevent activation and the Mystic brings in the Batterskull that eventually kills me. It had to fight under an E. Plague naming Germ and Night of Souls Betrayal buying me an extra turn but it wasn't enough.

Game 1 Round 2, sadness.
I board in both Needles for SFM and or Jitte OR Jace. On turn 1, I drop a Pithing Needle, think for a second, and name Jace. I never see my other needle. He Pithing Needles my Mishra's and Liliana. Dystopia manages to kill 2 SFMs. I use one to kill one, even with a snap caster in play. And then when he plays a second one, my 2nd Dystopia kills it as well, I don't pay the upkeep for either but damn it's worth it. He gets a 3rd SFM [damn Brainstorm and me not getting any LD] and manages to stick a Batterskull Germ holding a Jitte. :eek: Even with 2 E. plagues on merfolk [for TNN] and Germ, I die to a 3/3 germ dual wielding a Bskull+Jitte. :frown:

Game 2 Round 1. UWB Landstill variant. wtf?!
Then it hits me, he's using a Creeping Tar Pit. I ensure 2 Inqisitions hit both his opening hand Standstills and Wasteland prevents him from casting either. [2 Wastelands, draw the tits baby]. After a LOONG grind of several draw pass, he's getting lands, but no threats, and I'm drawing business, with only 1 swamp and 1 wasteland on the field. Eventually he kills me with an unblockable Tar Pit. Crucible ended up burying me long before the fatal blow.

Game 2 Round 2. Leyline of the Void >> Crucible.
I open with a Leyline. After some turns of Hand Disruption, he sticks a Detention Sphere on turn 4 on Leyline. I had a Dystopia waiting for it and kill it getting my Leyline back leaving him a single fetchland in his yard with Crucible in play. He had a Notion Thief boarded in but it never hits the field. A mob of 1 Mishra's Factory and 1 Creeping Tar Pit leave me with little to do. I notice that this game, I'm not drawing mana, despite 24 lands. My games tend to be swingy like that. I never get enough lands, or draw too many lands not enough spells. Such is Pox. I die to his lands in sorrow due to the deck not topdecking for me.

Game 3 Round 1. I don't know what it is.
He's on the play. I see a Taiga hit the field. I Wasteland him. He plays a Phyrexian Tower. I still don't know deck what it is. I play a Mishra's Factory on turn 2 using it to play Cursed Scroll. Here's where the fun begins. I top deck 2 Sinkholes back to back. I use Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth with Mishra's to kill his Swamp and his Tower. He scoops after I topdeck and play a 2nd wasteland. He seems irritated. I still don't know the deck.

Game 3 Round 2. We get into a long explanation on why table shuffling isn't really shuffling and he explains to me that if a snarky opponent in a national grade tournament calls over a judge, the answer is "I'm counting my cards." You don't say "I'm evenly distributing my sideboard". I never knew nor cared about such things but to him, pile shuffling is an unnecessary waste of time which could get you in trouble. Never 'finish' shuffling with the pile/table shuffle. New food for my thought. At first I thought I offended him in someway cause his manner of speech was condescending but since I had no reason to care, I'll just keep the idea in my head. Don't table shuffle etc.
He's on the play with a Forest and Veteran Explorer. Jund Nic Fit. Blam. I'm afraid. I didn't board in anything and he follows through with a Sensei's top. I try to 'feast' off the V. Exp. triggers with Innocent Blood followed by Sinkhole. Another V. Explorer eats an Innocent Blood giving me a Hymn to Tourach. No dice. Despite the extra mana, my spells are too small and eventually, he sticks a Garruk [the version where +1 gives him a 3/3 beast, phark]. Backed by his own Liliana of the Veil. 9 damage of Beasts disembowel me. He's a good sport. :cool:

Game 3, Round 3. I get Needles ready for his Planeswalkers. He Abrupt Decays my opening Scroll, which sucked. The game gets very grindy with lots of draw 'pass' turns. Eventually, he sticks a Pyrostatic Pillar. Great card for low cmc [which is me] but he keeps redirecting the damage to Liliana. He kills her with it, eventually but my 2nd Liliana I'm more careful with. I draw into the Cursed Scroll after so many turns, after he Abrupt Decays my 2nd Liliana. The scroll and my plentiful mana count keeps my hand empty and eventually kills him. He knows the match up supposed to be in his favor but luck can kill just as a good deck can. Win. :cool: Against PUNISHING FIRE Nic Fit. He just couldn't do enough damage with it to me due to the burnwillows heal. I laugh inside.

New lesson. LEYLINE DEFEATS Nic Fit! It stops P. Fire and won't allow the Veteran Explorer Trigger. I didn't side in the Leyline but now I'm kicking myself in the head to my ignorance. 4 Leyline, 1 Relic of Progenitus. I did keep in Dystopia for Deathrite Shamans. He also had this unusual 2/4 3cmc green creature I've never seen before. Courser of Kruphix. Interesting, but it didn't win him games.

Round 4, 3 people dropped and I got the bye. Yay.

A burn player got 1st place. I need a 20 card sideboard now lol.
Current SB:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Dystopia
3 Engineered Plague
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Relic of Progenitus

Wth do I do to deal with Burn? :eek: I can only think of Sun Droplet.

[Hardcore]

Omni, I think your deck is too defensive.
Too many answers after sideboard.
Try stillmoon cavalier.


As for explorer, you should chetryck oracle.

[OmniStrata]

Omni, I think your deck is too defensive.
Too many answers after sideboard.
Try stillmoon cavalier.


As for explorer, you should chetryck oracle.

Hardcore, I think your deck is too offensive.
Too many threats and little disruption.
Stillmoon requires too much mana and isn't safe from my own Poxing. At least Cursed Scroll is immune despite also needing mana.

I don't own explorer but I didn't see Nic Fit as a GY deck hence the forgetfulness. P. Fire does too little if the healing is taken into account. Live and learn. And I'll take that win, good fortune and all.

There's another Pox player there running Loam Pox. When he told me that Big Pox isn't run due to Liliana being so good I ask him if Liliana can hack down a 3rd of your enemy's life total. I'd need a God-card to consider my 1 singleton Pox being removed. It'd have to do more than 1/3 life damage in some way lol.

[miccel]

Vs burn decks I've 2 nether voids MD and 1 in my SB, sometimes 1 zuran orb..but is a terrible MU for pox..we known...

[Hardcore]

One reason for that is, of course, that most pox decks want have board control. Add to that they have no fast threats and the burn player thus have all the time he need to draw spells.
The weakness is the low mana curve. Stuff like chalice will hurt it, as will trinisphere when used conjunction with land destruction. One important point be careful of: burn can empty their hand quickly. This mean any hate must be deployed as early as possible. Dark ritual - chalice for one on turn one may seem wasting one mana but consider that that the cost of winning.

[OmniStrata]

Vs burn decks I've 2 nether voids MD and 1 in my SB, sometimes 1 zuran orb..but is a terrible MU for pox..we known...

Land Destruction + Sun Droplet should put the burn player far enough behind. Usually, they run 19 lands or less so a good amount of LD or virtual LD is needed. Trisphere is good, as is chalice. I'm a fan of Sphere of Resistance. Chalice hurts you but you amplify Sphere's power by running Sinkhole and Smallpox. 1 extra mana for you is easy since Burn doesn't have the time to play Wastelands or Stone Rain.

[Polish Tamales]

So after getting my butt handed to me by a few Omni-Tell/Sneak & Show/Belcher players, I had to adjust my tool box build into something much more streamlined. It didn't really change my interaction with a turn one Show and Tell, but it does help me a lot if I'm on the play with this list. Let me know how you guys feel about this:

4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Cursed Scroll
3 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
2 The Rack
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Mishra's Factory
7 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dust Bowl
2 Duress
2 Tombstalker
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Toxic Deluge

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Dystopia
SB: 1 Memoricide


So a few changes to the main board. Obviously the first thing to was the Stalker. There are a lot of moments where he would be a valuable blocker against Canadian Thresh, but against other match ups, he'd be StP eventually. So I decided to go with main deck Tombstalkers since while my opponent may still have their removal spells game one, there's match ups where my window of opportunity to attack would validate the 10-15 damage I would get out of him before it was eventually dealt with. Comparing that to Stalker I would only get 4-6 against decks with StP or if they're really aggressive with their Ooze. Against a combo deck, I wanted to beat them before they would draw into their win-con in game one.

I dropped most of the artifacts in the main board since I felt the green splash was such a better robust deck against control and it's hard to emulate what it does with just sensei's top/worlds/fetchlands/crime/dark blast/stalker/entomb. It wasn't quite the same using this compared to Sylvan Library and the Loam package.

Instead, it allowed me to use a pair of Duresses in the main deck against combo or if I'm on the play an Aether Vial. I also included The Rack as a low maintenance win condition in case my Scrolls get Revokered or Null Rodded.

Since Crucible of Worlds was dropped along with the fetchlands, I wanted something to do with all the extra land I would draw, so I decided Dust Bowl was practical way of supplementing what the deck was already trying to do.

The side board received a complete overhaul compared to my last list. Learning from my experiences dealing with combo in Modern, I felt that 3 Extripate/Extraction effects weren't a bad idea against very linear combo decks with 1 or 2 key pieces. With Duress in the main, I could now have flexibility beyond what IoK would've given me.

While I know some of you guys might be looking at that singleton Memoricide and think it's too narrow, I needed a card that can lock certain decks. Against Miracles for example, I could name Jace while still having Bridges to deal with their Angel tokens. I could name wishes against High Tide/Omni-Tell. Anything that can lock their games, rather than seeing them peel an answer into their top-deck

Ensnaring Bridge against Show/Sneak/Reanimator. I would stall until drawing into answers into Extraction/Cide.

Two Engineered Plauge in addition to Night of Souls' in the main board to deal with the usual vial strategies and elf combo.

Dystopia was also finally added to allow me to deal Leylines, D&T, Canadian Thresh and Elves again. I needed additional ways to deal with treats beyond just 1-for-1s, especially if I have to mull down to 5 in some cases.

If I had money to burn, I'd probably upgrade to the Loam Version of Pox, but let me know how you guys feel about this adjustment for the MBC version.

[Hardcore]

A fourth ritual to quickly play an answer to goblin Warren, or turn one Liliana.

[Chatto]

I agree: play four DR, period. And why the fetches without SDT? Question; how does the tutor work for you?

[Polish Tamales]

I agree: play four DR, period. And why the fetches without SDT? Question; how does the tutor work for you?

Actually those are dropped, so that was a c/p error on me.

I don't know, but it feels horrible top decking into rituals, even when I'm ahead on board. I dropped 1 copy in place for the tutor and it works out much better in a larger sample size of matches. Not only that, I rather on the play, turn 1 duress/IoK, than turn 1 Lili against possibly a Show & Tell/Omni-tell or even to a first turn kill Belcher. Especially against Miracles, I'd probably want to remove their Top before they manage to cast it or a Vial in the D&T match up. Again, G1, turn 1 Lili isn't always the best thing to cast.

Top decking into the tutor saved me a lot whenever it pops up. When they're crippled, I can tutor up a Tombstalker and start up the clock, or whatever else I may need to lock them out. If I'm behind on board, I could pull Toxic or whatever silver bullets I have from my sideboard G2-3.

I don't understand why people want to play Pox and try to drag out the games in this meta. I understand you want to put them in a top deck mode, but the number of turns it takes for Pox to finish it's plate just becomes detrimental after G1 when they could draw into their own silver bullets against us. Ratchet Bombs/EE/Pithing Needles/Null Rod are a thing G2-3, right? That's not even mentioning Deathrite Shaman or StP on our Nether Spirit.

I'd much rather just try and kill them asap with Tombstalkers (since they provide a better clock over Spirits G1) and plan accordingly for the SB plan G2-3. Even if Tomb Stalkers are switched out to make room for Bridges, having The Rack as plan B still works if they further try and lock us out with Null Rod/Needle. The meta's really fast right now so I don't see why we can't just evolve Pox rather than using the same stock list people net deck off of Reid Duke. Meta's changed a lot since then and I feel that we can modify Pox to be more tempo oriented, rather than just hope we top deck better than they do.

It wouldn't surprise me if the lists start evolving closer to 8 Rack in Modern.

[Chatto]

The reason I stated play four is because of the terrible topdeck: you want to have one as fast of possible. After turn two or three it can help, but often you would something else. Dropping DR is even better :-) I am trying Bg build sar the moment and therefor never play DR. I am also looking for eats to implement Dark Stage-combo.

[Hardcore]

It is not unreasonable to drop dr altogether. Add two swamp to compensate for the mana loss, and perhaps play four duress?

[Chatto]

(...)

It wouldn't surprise me if the lists start evolving closer to 8 Rack in Modern.

Those kind of Pox-decks already exsist :smile:

[Polish Tamales]

Those kind of Pox-decks already exsist :smile:

I'm sure it does, just it hasn't been able to go toe to toe with Tier 1 strategies yet.

[PirateKing]

Has anyone some testing with Waste Not yet? My Pox list is in disarray and I haven't found the motivation to build it into anything relevant currently, but I feel once that card lands, it'll provide everything I've wanted in a 8 rack discard brew. I'd like to be able to hit the ground running as soon as M15 comes out. Anybody got delicious play testing they'd share?

[Hardcore]

We have had that discussion here already. The card is simply too conditional.

[draugr]

Hey folks,

Long time Pox player here. I'm generally busy during the academic quarter, but I find some free time during the summers to get back into Magic and make a yearly revision to my list. I've been messing around with cards and testing on Cockatrice. I think things are looking pretty good at this point, but I'd love some outside suggestions.

Here's the list:
14 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Dakmor Salvage

4 Dark Ritual

3 Pox
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

1 Nether Spirit
4 Bloodghast
4 The Rack
2 Cursed Scroll

SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 2 Null Rod
SB: 2 Sphere of Resistance

Suggestions? Any apparent weakspots? Let me know if card choices need justifications. The main one that sticks out is likely the 3x Pox. I won't lie, that's partly there because I love the flavor of Pox and can't get myself to drop it. Though I wouldn't mind taking it down to 1-2 if someone can think of a much better replacement.

In addition, I simply can't afford 4x Wastelands. If I could I'd also pick up 4x Sinkhole and go to a more tradition LD list. But for the time being (or until Wizards reprints Wasteland!), I'm with Rack pox.

Take care,
Draugr

[Hardcore]

You have fifteen win conditions, which is perhaps more than optimal when playing control. The rack is good only occasionally. I would cut to two and add two sensei 's divining top.
Also consider replace dark ritual with swamps. You are quite short of lands.

[OmniStrata]

Here's the list:
14 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Dakmor Salvage

4 Dark Ritual

3 Pox
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

1 Nether Spirit
4 Bloodghast
4 The Rack
2 Cursed Scroll

SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 2 Null Rod
SB: 2 Sphere of Resistance

Take care,
Draugr

Please don't use the phrase "I can't afford" in this thread. Just say you're building Rack Pox. You do need more lands as Hardcore has stated. With 7 Pox FX, land will be in very short supply without Crucible of Worlds. Last I checked, Sinkholes cost less than Liliana ( I don't buy Mint oldies). They could be replaced with Wrench Mind for more hand killing goodness.

I'd also recommend Cabal Pit in place of Wasteland for Rack builds since Rack Pox usually has very poor defense and -2/-2 targetting key creatures can help a lot. Nailing blockers with a Cabal Pit after your Bloodghast suicided into one of them is a goofy play too. :laugh:

[Amazingxkcd]

Potentially getting back into magic after (what, 1 year drought?). How does Loam pox fare these days?

[OmniStrata]

Potentially getting back into magic after (what, 1 year drought?). How does Loam pox fare these days?

Me and 2 other Pox players at my local meta had a discussion on it and it's reflected here as well. Not worth the splash. Not only does it spend more time durdling (dredging then doing nothing), being weaker to opposing wastelands and also 'saving mana' for things like Abrupt Decay, we've found it just doesn't do enough to warrant the dual lands and GY overusage. Deny the yard and you deny like 33% of the deck. Mono-B Pox is practically immune to GY hate.

I suppose if your meta is slow enough to get to turn 10 consistently I'd go try out Loam Pox again.

[Amazingxkcd]

Alrighty, thanks for the quick responses. I'll take a jab with pox on cockatrice or something.

[Dr Brian Pepper]

We have had that discussion here already. The card is simply too conditional.

all i saw was you disagreeing with people

[Bruno]

Someone could help me with my list?

4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Barren Moor
1 Maze of Ith
1 Swamp
1 Marsh Flats
1 Cabal Pit
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Ghost Quarter

2 Nether Spirit

4 Mox Diamond
2 Crucible of the Worlds
2 The Rack

4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
3 Vindicate
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach

3 Liliana of the Veil

[Chatto]

Someone could help me with my list?

4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Barren Moor
1 Maze of Ith
1 Swamp
1 Marsh Flats
1 Cabal Pit
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Ghost Quarter

2 Nether Spirit

4 Mox Diamond
2 Crucible of the Worlds
2 The Rack

4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
3 Vindicate
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach

3 Liliana of the Veil

-1 IB for a third StP.
-1 Crucible for 4th Liliana. You rarely want to have a second Crucible, but the 4th Lilana is always helpfull.
-1 Maze or Nomad Stadium for Karakas. It gives you your fifth/ sixth white source. Also try Flagstones of Trokair, it will replace itself, very handy. I'm not dold on the Nomad Stadium, but who knows.



I remember posting a Bw list earlier here, either way search the net... There are some who did well with the white splash.

Just my two cents

[OmniStrata]

Someone could help me with my list?

4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Barren Moor
1 Maze of Ith
1 Swamp
1 Marsh Flats
1 Cabal Pit
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Ghost Quarter

2 Nether Spirit

4 Mox Diamond
2 Crucible of the Worlds
2 The Rack

4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
3 Vindicate
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach

3 Liliana of the Veil

-2 Swords to Plowshares, +1 Vindicate, +1 Liliana of the Veil. Don't give them health.
-2 The Rack, +2 Cursed Scroll. Sinkhole and the Rack don't work. Dis-synergy = bad.

I'd rather run 24 land. I'm hateful of Mox Diamond. It's a terrible topdeck. Why is Dark Ritual better? Cursed Scroll, Mishra's Factory, any other permanent that can be fed mana. You don't want cards that become bad top decks. The 2nd Crucible is ok. Lots of decks now pack maindeck hate for artifacts. True, Dark rit can be bad if you have no mana feeding permanents in play, but you can't do anything with Diamond without land in hand.

Or if your meta is slow enough, you won't need Dark ritual. Instead, -4 Mox Diamond, +2 Swamp, +1 Syphon Life, +1 Ensnaring Bridge.

I'm also not sure about Nomad Stadium. Syphon Life + Crucible = better.

[Bruno]

Thank you, guys.
My field is a bit more agile, so I thought about using mox.
I'll try to use this list:

4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Maze of Ith
3 Swamp
3 Marsh Flats
1 Cabal Pit
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Ghost Quarter

1 Nether Spirit

2 Crucible of the Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll

4 Dark Ritual
3 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Vindicate
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Liliana of the Veil

[OmniStrata]

Thank you, guys.
My field is a bit more agile, so I thought about using mox.
I'll try to use this list:

4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Maze of Ith
3 Swamp
3 Marsh Flats
1 Cabal Pit
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Ghost Quarter

1 Nether Spirit

2 Crucible of the Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll

4 Dark Ritual
3 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Vindicate
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Liliana of the Veil

I like this list. It's unable to run big Pox due to splash but it seems to cover all bases. Sideboard? And are you comfortable with only 6 threats? [I'm not but mileage may vary]

[Chatto]

@ Bruno: nice list, but I would still drop the second Crucible (sorry Omni :smile:) Unless you are sure you will be able to go for a Crucible/ Waste Quarter-lock (I'm assuming the Quarter/ Waste split is deliberate), it's not worth the slot. So basically is your meta slow enough? If you're going into the late game you will find it either way. Right now I'm playing one Crucible in my own MBP, but next to three SDT so i've ways to dig for it.

Like Omni I would consider a 7th and if possible an 8th threat. Six just doesn't feel right.

[Bruno]

Thank omni and chatto. I thought about what you said. the point is I have no idea what could serve as more threat on the deck.
one time I played with this list but the results did not satisfy me:

1 plains
6 swamps
4 scrubland
4 marsh flats
2 bloodstained mire
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factory

2 nether spirit

3 liliana of the veil

1 umezawa's jitte
1 relic of progenitus
2 cursed scroll

4 swords to plowshares
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 sinkhole
4 smallpox
4 hymn
3 lingering souls
3 vindicate

What do you think?
I'm coming from mono black and is really hard to fit a good splash.
BG in my case is not an option since Bayou here in Brazil is extremely expensive.
Thanks for your patience, guys.

[Chatto]

Well, the only splash I can properly is Green :smile: White is purely hypothetical for me. However, here is a link for some reference: http://www.mtgtop8.com/compare?l=_231817_217506_

I think what you have to make clear is what does White can offer you:

- Vindicate: hits everything
- StP: downside is like Omni said > lifegain for your opponent. However I personally wouldn't mind that
- Lingering Souls: even in graveyard it can give you tokens, plus makes you 'immune' to Spox

[Bruno]

I thought about everything you said. the only way to put more threats in the deck, is removing the dark ritual.
then looked like this:

1 plains
6 swamp
4 scrubland
4 marsh flats
4 mishra's factory
3 wasteland
1 maze of ith
1 cabal pit
1 ghost quarter

2 Nether Spirit

1 Crucible of the Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll

1 swords to plowshares (agaist mirror)
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Vindicate
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach

1 nether void

4 Liliana of the Veil

still no idea what use the side.
I use a ghost quarter against decks that use few non-basic lands.
In those games my wastelands are expendable. Then I use myself, like a fetch.
Against burn and UR Delver, ghost quarter serves relieve the price of progress. Can I use in my non basic land, decrease the damage and seek another land.

[OmniStrata]

Well, the only splash I can properly is Green :smile: White is purely hypothetical for me. However, here is a link for some reference: http://www.mtgtop8.com/compare?l=_231817_217506_

I think what you have to make clear is what does White can offer you:

- Vindicate: hits everything
- StP: downside is like Omni said > lifegain for your opponent. However I personally wouldn't mind that
- Lingering Souls: even in graveyard it can give you tokens, plus makes you 'immune' to Spox

Lifegain is fine if you're a fast aggro consistent damage deck. Zoo can afford STP since they CRACK YOUR JAW :eek: for 7 damage a turn. As Orzhov Pox, you don't run many or large enough threats. Personally, I'd consider running StP if I ran Nihilith, Tombstalker, and Phyrexian Totem as threats. They're BIG hitters.

Lingering Souls gives a more aggro feel and can effectively give you 8 threats with evasion. If you're going the many threats route, Jitte becomes more viable past the 16 threats point.

Now that you mention Golgari Pox, I actually ran, to moderate success, 2 massive green threats that cracked me up. [not Tarmogoyf]. Dirkwood Baloth & Tempting Wurm. This version was rack based due to Wurm and it was fun for casual play, but poor for serious tournament play.

[OmniStrata]

still no idea what use the side.
I use a ghost quarter against decks that use few non-basic lands.
In those games my wastelands are expendable. Then I use myself, like a fetch.
Against burn and UR Delver, ghost quarter serves relieve the price of progress. Can I use in my non basic land, decrease the damage and seek another land.

Pox has 3 very pronounced weaknesses and 2 strengths.

Anti-combo. We disrupt too damn much for combo to win. Even worse with Dark Ritualist Poxers.
Anti-control. Control likes hording resources and wins with 1 threat. We cut resources like lawn mowers and no threat is safe from us.

Burn Weakness. They top deck death. We are top deckers... :cry:
Aggro Weakness. We're sacrifice based. They'll just sac cannon fodder if they drop 2-3 threats per turn.
GY Weakness. Crucible, Loam, Dredge, Flashback, etc. We Yard-dump foes faster than any other deck in the game. Yard lovers auto-win.

Build a sideboard around those principles.

[beez]

I agree completely, a good analysis. Toxic Deluge can help with some creature sweeping out of the board and a Thorn of Amythest or Sphere of Resistance can help against very fast combo.

[Bruno]

Thanks guys, I played yesterday against some friends, against different decks and enjoyed.
I did many tests. The best hands, answers and playing conditions were with this list. I think I'll keep it that way. Day 26 I'll throw a LQ with this deck.
Now i'll think about sideboard considering what omni said.
Follows the final list:

2 Nether Spirit

2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
6 Swamp
4 Wasteland

2 Cursed Scroll
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lingering Souls
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Vindicate

[zenitramleirdag]

Thanks guys, I played yesterday against some friends, against different decks and enjoyed.
I did many tests. The best hands, answers and playing conditions were with this list. I think I'll keep it that way. Day 26 I'll throw a LQ with this deck.
Now i'll think about sideboard considering what omni said.
Follows the final list:

2 Nether Spirit

2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
6 Swamp
4 Wasteland

2 Cursed Scroll
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lingering Souls
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Vindicate


Here's a list i saw from another good deck builder from another forum, i think its a thoroughly tested list and does well against the good decks in the meta especially if you tailor your sideboard against it..

Lands 25
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
3 Marsh Flats
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

Creatures 3
1 Nether Spirit
2 Tombstalker

Spells 22
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Mox Diamond
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Vindicate


Sideboard 15
2 Engineered Plague
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Extirpate
2 Massacre
1 Nether Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Rest in Peace
1 Serenity
1 The Abyss
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Trinisphere

sorry for the lengthy post, just sharing some ideas i've heard from other poxers.. i'm no expert with the white splash since i exclusively run mono black..

[Bruno]

First idea to side.

3 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in Peace
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Warmth

[OmniStrata]

First idea to side.

3 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in Peace
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Warmth

-2 Toxic Deluge; +1 Eng. Plague, +1 Ensnaring Bridge - just C. Scroll through your bridge. Deluge paying life against an aggro player who recovers quickly is of little consequence. Having a permanent solution to hordes is superior.
Swap Warmth with Sun Droplet. The Droplet will get ALL your hp back. Warmth seems to just slow down the damage but you're still at -1 life after a Bolt. That and you won't need white mana in your opening hand for artifacts. If you're afraid of artifact kill, ok, it's a keeper. Not many other cards to consider after that.

[Bruno]

Thank you.
I did not know this card, Sun Droplet.
My side looked like this:

4 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sun Droplet
2 Ensnaring Bridge

With this side, I can play mono black sometimes.

[OmniStrata]

Thank you.
I did not know this card, Sun Droplet.
My side looked like this:

4 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sun Droplet
2 Ensnaring Bridge

With this side, I can play mono black sometimes.

An excellent board. Covers all bases and can be used with a splash since none of them require BB. :cool:

[bizdoin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGoc9KQi8_k

perfect list

[Vicar in a tutu]

Lately I've been proxying up Waste Not and testing it in monoblack pox. The card is not bad. Drawing it late game is not that horrible, as it sets up a situation where the cards your opponent must discard due to Liliana, makes you draw cards. The board state that pox wants to make it to makes Waste Not good (and before someone says it's "win more", getting to that board state in which pox thrives, is certainly not a guaranteed win, it's quite easy to lose if your opponent hits a land, plays a ponder, finds another land, etc., Pox has a terrible topdeck). This is my current list, the sideboard is a little experimental, Unmask goes in against combo and works well with Waste Not:

Waste Not Pox

4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
13 Swamps

1 Nether Spirit

4 Dark Ritual
4 Smallpox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Sinkhole
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Waste Not

4 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Engineered Plague
4 Unmask

[OmniStrata]

The board state that pox wants to make it to makes Waste Not good (and before someone says it's "win more", getting to that board state in which pox thrives, is certainly not a guaranteed win, it's quite easy to lose if your opponent hits a land, plays a ponder, finds another land, etc., Pox has a terrible topdeck). This is my current list, the sideboard is a little experimental, Unmask goes in against combo and works well with Waste Not:

Waste Not Pox

4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
13 Swamps

1 Nether Spirit

4 Dark Ritual
4 Smallpox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Sinkhole
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Waste Not

4 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Engineered Plague
4 Unmask

For a card to be considered in Pox, it needs to do 1 of 3 things. Provide mana, Disrupt the Opponent, Deal Damage. Waste Not does none of the above when top decked. This is why it's win more. You say Pox has a terrible top deck? If you've got Liliana and your foe isn't running SDT, for the most part, you HAVE won. Now he needs to get lucky with a top decked Pithing Needle on her, otherwise, they can't keep their creature or 'hide' their top deck removal for your creature. This is with your assumption that the board state is in which Pox thrives and they have no threats at the moment. I guess they need to topdeck Leyline of Sanctity right? :eek: Ponder isn't shit in the face of a Smallpox. You need to Ponder/Brainstorm 3 times to recover from an optimal Smallpox.

[Vicar in a tutu]

For a card to be considered in Pox, it needs to do 1 of 3 things. Provide mana, Disrupt the Opponent, Deal Damage. Waste Not does none of the above when top decked. This is why it's win more. You say Pox has a terrible top deck? If you've got Liliana and your foe isn't running SDT, for the most part, you HAVE won. Now he needs to get lucky with a top decked Pithing Needle on her, otherwise, they can't keep their creature or 'hide' their top deck removal for your creature. This is with your assumption that their board state is optimal and they have no threats at the moment. I guess they need to topdeck Leyline of Sanctity right? :eek: Ponder isn't shit in the face of a Smallpox. You need to Ponder/Brainstorm 3 times to recover from an optimal Smallpox.
This has not been my experience. If Pox had an amazing top deck, it would have been tier 1 or 1.5, not 2 or 3. Although Pithing Needle stops Liliana, a far more likely scenario is Abrupt Decay, Vendilion Clique, Phyrexian Revoker or just creature overload in general (where sacrifice-effects suck). I have lost even in situations where I have Liliana active against an opponent with 0 creatures, few cards in hand and few lands. Yesterday, in a situation just like that playing against elves, my opponent topdecked a fetch and cast Elvish Visionary. I later top decked Innocent Blood, but obviously that still sucks. More and more creatures followed, my Liliana got overrun while I drew Swamps, Sink Holes, Hymns and Inquistions. The hymn wasn't bad in the sense that I could take a few cards from his hand, but it would have been far better if I had a Waste Not in play. Waste Not is perfect for the kind of grindy, long drawn game that Pox wants to facilitate with Smallpox, Liliana, discard and Sinkhole. I don't think there are any other (existing) decks in legacy that has the density of discard to support Waste Not as a reliable engine.

[zenitramleirdag]

cursed scroll and liliana of the veil helps us during top deck mode by providing consistent sac/damage effects..

swarm strategies have always been a headache for pox, toxic deluge is great and serves as a temporary or "band aid" solution but sometimes you need a more permanent answer..night of soul's betrayal provides virtual card advantage by making most creatures they draw into dead draws..

i haven't proxied waste not to test it, it seems good but dontcha think 4 is a bit too many? try replacing some of them with a copy or two of night of souls betrayal..

the way i see it, its either you construct your deck with more lock/control components like nether void, crucible of worlds, rishadan port, etc to grind it out for the long game(though i personally think its dangerous because pox as a mono black deck simply does not have all the answers for everything your opponent brings to the table) or you include threats that can kill your opponent quickly like tombstalker, desecration demon, etc.. some say that a pox deck is not supposed to lock your opponent out of the game but rather just disrupt the game long enough to let your fast wincons bring your opponent down..you decide :wink:


but you know what? i think your list looks fine.. :smile:

[Vicar in a tutu]

i haven't proxied waste not to test it, it seems good but dontcha think 4 is a bit too many? try replacing some of them with a copy or two of night of souls betrayal..
Yeah, maybe I'll try a Night of Souls' Betrayal, but I think I'll remove a Toxic Deluge and keep the playset of Waste Not. The reason I want the entire playset is because I really want to see a copy during the early game. The dream scenario is Dark Ritual into Waste Not and Inquisition of Kozilek, followed next turn either by a Hymn to Tourach (if they didn't cast a creature) or a Smallpox (if they did). Besides, having double Waste Not mid- and lategame is not bad, as they stack.

[OmniStrata]

Yeah, maybe I'll try a Night of Souls' Betrayal, but I think I'll remove a Toxic Deluge and keep the playset of Waste Not. The reason I want the entire playset is because I really want to see a copy during the early game. The dream scenario is Dark Ritual into Waste Not and Inquisition of Kozilek, followed next turn either by a Hymn to Tourach (if they didn't cast a creature) or a Smallpox (if they did). Besides, having double Waste Not mid- and lategame is not bad, as they stack.

The "Band-Aid" mentioned is correct. Toxic Deluge won't stop recoveries. Night of Souls' Betrayal does. So does Ensnaring Bridge. The ultimate problem with Waste Not is that if your foe is running on empty hand and Liliana is out, unless it's a counterspell-only deck, the top decked spells will be casted all the time to 'dodge' Liliana. The Waste Not would do nothing. Now if you had Nether Voids with Waste/Sinkholes, ah, now Waste Not may work since they can't cast anything. Maybe Contamination. :cool:

Also, top decking an Innocent Blood with Liliana in play after they topped a Noble Hierarch is fine. Blood her and then +1 Liliana. I run 1 Engineered maindeck and Night of Souls' Betrayal to deal with 1 toughness dorks. They're the best at it and can even deal with 2 toughness if it's a tribal. At which point, Liliana will lock out their big creatures. I've yet to face a deck that fights using 1 cmc 3 toughness creatures to flood the board. Also, maindecking 'plague' cards will defeat 1 toughness mana-dorks which Pox hates to see.

[zenitramleirdag]

Joshua Edelstein! piloted this loam pox build to a top 5 finish yesterday at SCG..congratulations to him..
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69791

seems he's foregone the diamonds and rituals, sacrificing a little bit of speed for more business spells..
hope to see a video coverage of it..

[Chatto]

Joshua Edelstein! piloted this loam pox build to a top 5 finish yesterday at SCG..congratulations to him..
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69791

seems he's foregone the diamonds and rituals, sacrificing a little bit of speed for more business spells..
hope to see a video coverage of it..

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/544711979?t=34h19m

[OmniStrata]

Joshua Edelstein! piloted this loam pox build to a top 5 finish yesterday at SCG..congratulations to him..
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69791

seems he's foregone the diamonds and rituals, sacrificing a little bit of speed for more business spells..
hope to see a video coverage of it..

Hot list, though I'm not a fan of Entomb in a non-combo deck. With 27 lands, I thought he'd run out of anti-combo cards, but Therapies with Inquisition+Hymn should be plenty. Weaponized lands be epic! :laugh:

[rlesko]

Joshua Edelstein! piloted this loam pox build to a top 5 finish yesterday at SCG..congratulations to him..
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69791

seems he's foregone the diamonds and rituals, sacrificing a little bit of speed for more business spells..
hope to see a video coverage of it..

The biggest surprise to me was 0 sinkholes!!

In a deck with 3 pernicious deeds in its 75, 0 moxes and 0 scrolls is not surprising. Dark ritual outside of the mono B shell can be awkward...The utility entomb provides is pretty sweet though I worry he is very vulnerable to grave hate, I wonder how exactly he fights through it. BTW, everyone should take a look at the deck, is all foil jap and FBB lands, quite the sight!!

[OmniStrata]

Anybody have any ideas how to deal with an established counter balance in Mono-B? Apparently Miracles is bigger in my local meta and lock pieces like Culling Scales come to mind. Black isn't big in my meta and I'm considering bringing Contamination back.

[jredelstein]

The biggest surprise to me was 0 sinkholes!!

In a deck with 3 pernicious deeds in its 75, 0 moxes and 0 scrolls is not surprising. Dark ritual outside of the mono B shell can be awkward...The utility entomb provides is pretty sweet though I worry he is very vulnerable to grave hate, I wonder how exactly he fights through it. BTW, everyone should take a look at the deck, is all foil jap and FBB lands, quite the sight!!

Thanks for the well wishes guys!

I have been playing (and pimping out) this deck ever since Ari Lax and Adam Prozak built it 3 years ago. Unfortunate that I got paired against burn in top 8 but I was still excited to see Charlie Mitchell make top 4 of his 1st competitive legacy event. I felt like I matched up favorably to every other deck in the top 8 I find Belcher is a even more favorable match-up than burn. And the rest of the top 8 was creature decks which I'll take all day.

I have run Sinkhole and Nethervoid at different points in time. I have even gone as deep as Firemane Angel for the Burn Match-up.

Entomb is sweet tutoring for Loam, Bloodghast, Cabal Therapy, and Lands, I have never seen a deck that utilizes entomb this well. Therapy has been the Best addition to the deck, it is awesome against every one especially Sneak and Show where Griselbrand and Sneak Attack are the only cards I care about, and stoneforge mystic decks. And there are a ton of awesome plays involving Therapy, Bloodghast, Entomb, and Mishra's Factory. (T1 Inquisition, T2 Therapy, Activate Factory, Flashback Therapy is usually backbreaking)

Graveyard hate just takes practice playing around just like with dredge, I tend to trim a loam and an entomb against decks like miracles that are not as vulnerable to wasteland. And Abrupt Decay answers RiP. Also keeping up barren moor to save your Loams or fetchlands to save Bloodghasts is just a force of habit now.

I have recently been tossing around the idea of moving crop rotation maindeck in order to play Dark Depths, I don't actually like it in my build but it is becoming a necessity in order to not go to time (I started of SCG Providence 3-0-3, inexperienced Miracles players played a part, Sensei's Top is not for the uninitiated), I also assume that it will have to take up the "creature" slots of Bloodghast and Mishra's Factory, which are both awesome against Jace.

I would love any tips that would allow me to speed up my clock, I "lock" my opponent out but can still take 5-10 mins to win after that. If new cards are suggested, I'll have to find Japanese Foil Versions :) or if not available some other form of Pimp (my hymms and karakas are miscut) I'll try to update this thread as I make changes, I have friends that check "The Source" regularly so hopefully they will update me if anything pops up here.

Thanks again,
Josh Edelstein

[feline]

Thanks for the well wishes guys!

I have been playing (and pimping out) this deck ever since Ari Lax and Adam Prozak built it 3 years ago. Unfortunate that I got paired against burn in top 8 but I was still excited to see Charlie Mitchell make top 4 of his 1st competitive legacy event. I felt like I matched up favorably to every other deck in the top 8 I find Belcher is a even more favorable match-up than burn. And the rest of the top 8 was creature decks which I'll take all day.

I have run Sinkhole and Nethervoid at different points in time. I have even gone as deep as Firemane Angel for the Burn Match-up.

Entomb is sweet tutoring for Loam, Bloodghast, Cabal Therapy, and Lands, I have never seen a deck that utilizes entomb this well. Therapy has been the Best addition to the deck, it is awesome against every one especially Sneak and Show where Griselbrand and Sneak Attack are the only cards I care about, and stoneforge mystic decks. And there are a ton of awesome plays involving Therapy, Bloodghast, Entomb, and Mishra's Factory. (T1 Inquisition, T2 Therapy, Activate Factory, Flashback Therapy is usually backbreaking)

Graveyard hate just takes practice playing around just like with dredge, I tend to trim a loam and an entomb against decks like miracles that are not as vulnerable to wasteland. And Abrupt Decay answers RiP. Also keeping up barren moor to save your Loams or fetchlands to save Bloodghasts is just a force of habit now.

I have recently been tossing around the idea of moving crop rotation maindeck in order to play Dark Depths, I don't actually like it in my build but it is becoming a necessity in order to not go to time (I started of SCG Providence 3-0-3, inexperienced Miracles players played a part, Sensei's Top is not for the uninitiated), I also assume that it will have to take up the "creature" slots of Bloodghast and Mishra's Factory, which are both awesome against Jace.

I would love any tips that would allow me to speed up my clock, I "lock" my opponent out but can still take 5-10 mins to win after that. If new cards are suggested, I'll have to find Japanese Foil Versions :) or if not available some other form of Pimp (my hymms and karakas are miscut) I'll try to update this thread as I make changes, I have friends that check "The Source" regularly so hopefully they will update me if anything pops up here.

Thanks again,
Josh Edelstein

I say just play really, really fast! If you've mastered the deck and it sure as heck seems like you have, just play as fast as you are able to. If you win more of your game 1's, you'll probably find that most people will play fast too, because they have to win the next 2 in order to win the match.

Also grats on the finish, it's about time this deck was more on the radar again! It's one of those decks I always root for. Well anything that isn't Delver/Stoneforge/boring.deck, ha ha.

[zenitramleirdag]

Thanks for the well wishes guys!

I have been playing (and pimping out) this deck ever since Ari Lax and Adam Prozak built it 3 years ago. Unfortunate that I got paired against burn in top 8 but I was still excited to see Charlie Mitchell make top 4 of his 1st competitive legacy event. I felt like I matched up favorably to every other deck in the top 8 I find Belcher is a even more favorable match-up than burn. And the rest of the top 8 was creature decks which I'll take all day.

I have run Sinkhole and Nethervoid at different points in time. I have even gone as deep as Firemane Angel for the Burn Match-up.

Entomb is sweet tutoring for Loam, Bloodghast, Cabal Therapy, and Lands, I have never seen a deck that utilizes entomb this well. Therapy has been the Best addition to the deck, it is awesome against every one especially Sneak and Show where Griselbrand and Sneak Attack are the only cards I care about, and stoneforge mystic decks. And there are a ton of awesome plays involving Therapy, Bloodghast, Entomb, and Mishra's Factory. (T1 Inquisition, T2 Therapy, Activate Factory, Flashback Therapy is usually backbreaking)

Graveyard hate just takes practice playing around just like with dredge, I tend to trim a loam and an entomb against decks like miracles that are not as vulnerable to wasteland. And Abrupt Decay answers RiP. Also keeping up barren moor to save your Loams or fetchlands to save Bloodghasts is just a force of habit now.

I have recently been tossing around the idea of moving crop rotation maindeck in order to play Dark Depths, I don't actually like it in my build but it is becoming a necessity in order to not go to time (I started of SCG Providence 3-0-3, inexperienced Miracles players played a part, Sensei's Top is not for the uninitiated), I also assume that it will have to take up the "creature" slots of Bloodghast and Mishra's Factory, which are both awesome against Jace.

I would love any tips that would allow me to speed up my clock, I "lock" my opponent out but can still take 5-10 mins to win after that. If new cards are suggested, I'll have to find Japanese Foil Versions :) or if not available some other form of Pimp (my hymms and karakas are miscut) I'll try to update this thread as I make changes, I have friends that check "The Source" regularly so hopefully they will update me if anything pops up here.

Thanks again,
Josh Edelstein




congrats on the strong finish man! awesome..and that is one beautiful deck too!

i'm in a quandary why you didn't have any form of life gain(spinning darkness, zuran orb, syphon life, etc) to shore up burn knowing its a terrible match up..

i'm no expert with loampox coz' i play the monoblack version but i agree that dark depths warrant some playtesting in your list..or you could always go for "wretched anurid", he he he he.. :wink:

question:does nethervoid work well in loampox? it seems awkward with all the loaming..its probably better to go for a quick kill than a lock component like void or sphere..just my 2-cents, again im no expert with pox w/ a green splash..

again, kudos dude!

[Dosferra]

Thanks for the well wishes guys!

A big congratulations!

I know a lot of people have a special place in their heart for Pox, myself included, so your finish comes as a great morale boost.


I have recently been tossing around the idea of moving crop rotation maindeck in order to play Dark Depths

I've played some Loam Pox Depths myself, the pretty all in kind with 3x Depths, 3x Stage and 4x Living Wish.
No Entomb or Crop Rotation though, because of Chalice of the Void (and Mox Diamond). It's pretty satisfactory to say the least, especially against Burn and the like, as you often combo off turn 4 or 5 and disrupt them on the way there.
1x Nether Spirit main and 1x Tombstalker in the wishboard as alt. kill cons.
And of course all the Pox staples such as Liliana, Hymn, Smallpox and so on.

Now that I've seen your build, I'm tempted to make a mixture of the decks, like removing the Chalices, Moxen et al., add a few lands, Entomb, Kozilek, Raven's Crime and Deed.
Chalice does, among a great deal of things, protect combo though, we shall see..!

Again, grats and looking forward to see where you will go with the deck in the future.

[lyracian]

Thanks for the well wishes guys! I would love any tips that would allow me to speed up my clock
Thanks for joining and giving us a quick run down. Do you think you will have any time for a more in-depth report of your day?
It is a shame your only on camera match was against Burn as I would have liked to see more of the deck. Have you tried out Nether Spirit in place of one of the Ghasts just to have something that can repeatedly block? Syphon Life and Zuran Orb are the only cards I have found that beat burn. Loam/Syphon can also help speed up slow matches.

[rlesko]

Thanks for the well wishes guys!

I have been playing (and pimping out) this deck ever since Ari Lax and Adam Prozak built it 3 years ago. Unfortunate that I got paired against burn in top 8 but I was still excited to see Charlie Mitchell make top 4 of his 1st competitive legacy event. I felt like I matched up favorably to every other deck in the top 8 I find Belcher is a even more favorable match-up than burn. And the rest of the top 8 was creature decks which I'll take all day.

I have run Sinkhole and Nethervoid at different points in time. I have even gone as deep as Firemane Angel for the Burn Match-up.

Entomb is sweet tutoring for Loam, Bloodghast, Cabal Therapy, and Lands, I have never seen a deck that utilizes entomb this well. Therapy has been the Best addition to the deck, it is awesome against every one especially Sneak and Show where Griselbrand and Sneak Attack are the only cards I care about, and stoneforge mystic decks. And there are a ton of awesome plays involving Therapy, Bloodghast, Entomb, and Mishra's Factory. (T1 Inquisition, T2 Therapy, Activate Factory, Flashback Therapy is usually backbreaking)

Graveyard hate just takes practice playing around just like with dredge, I tend to trim a loam and an entomb against decks like miracles that are not as vulnerable to wasteland. And Abrupt Decay answers RiP. Also keeping up barren moor to save your Loams or fetchlands to save Bloodghasts is just a force of habit now.

I have recently been tossing around the idea of moving crop rotation maindeck in order to play Dark Depths, I don't actually like it in my build but it is becoming a necessity in order to not go to time (I started of SCG Providence 3-0-3, inexperienced Miracles players played a part, Sensei's Top is not for the uninitiated), I also assume that it will have to take up the "creature" slots of Bloodghast and Mishra's Factory, which are both awesome against Jace.

I would love any tips that would allow me to speed up my clock, I "lock" my opponent out but can still take 5-10 mins to win after that. If new cards are suggested, I'll have to find Japanese Foil Versions :) or if not available some other form of Pimp (my hymms and karakas are miscut) I'll try to update this thread as I make changes, I have friends that check "The Source" regularly so hopefully they will update me if anything pops up here.

Thanks again,
Josh Edelstein

Josh,

I took your list to a small legacy event last night. I didn't think the lock mechanisms of loam pox were as strong as mono black or BW. I REALLY missed cursed scroll...and I'm used to having nether void, but I could get used to not having it. At times I found it confusing whether I want to loam or draw, though that isn't necessarily a critique of the deck, rather of me being new to it. I seem to favor scroll because once Bloodghast starts attacking, and we are in top deck mode, unless cabal pit was milled in the yard, I was losing to my opponents top decks and my bloodghast was out classed (our deck is nearly 50% land, whereas its more like 33% in most legacy decks). And in the same situation with Nether Void, the opponent needs 4 lands before they can do anything. I would like your thoughts on how to play the deck properly in those situations.

[sarahiscute]

hi, my list with some changes:

//Lands (29)
2 Barren Moor
4 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Dark Depths--------
1 Thespian's Stage----------
1 Forest
3 Dryad Arbor--------
1 Windswept Heath
2 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

//Spells (29)
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb-----
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox

//Creatures (3)
1 Nether Spirit-------
2 Bloodghast

total: 61 cards

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm--------
SB: 3 Crop Rotation
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Thoughtseize------
SB: 1 Karakas

[Bruno]

I''m trying a BW list but it's hard.
my actual monoblack list:

2 Cabal Pit
3 Mishra's Factory
9 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Tomb of Urami
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmo..

1 Nether Spirit
2 Tombstalker
4 Bloodghast

2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Pox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox

[buckinbroncos69]

Hey guys. I've been following this thread lately and want to give a smal tournament report along wiht the deck I am trying out. Constructive Criticism is appreciated as I would like to take the deck to SCG Baltimore. I had a normal pox list for a while(mono black prison without Nether Void/The Abyss, etc.) but felt not having the legends staples really hurt the deck. When I first built Pox, I started with a deck that was similar to the list i played tonight but was less all in on the rack effects. I wanted to test out Waste Not so I upped the discard spells and felt the Rack Effects would work. Anyway here is the list i played tonight and went 3-1 with.

4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction
3 Waste Not
1 Cursed Scroll
4 Innocent Blood
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inqusition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtsieze
4 Smallpox
3 Pox

12 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard
2 Massacre
2 Perish
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Null Rod
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger's Cage

Round 1-Meathooks(Slivers)
Game 1- Rip apart his hand so all he has out is a few 2/2's. Then land a couple of rack effects and close out the game fast.
Game 2- Get overrun with slivers and a few lords while not doing much to stop him.
Game 3- First game where i saw waste not. was able to control the board with some innocent bloods but they were still growing too fast. Found out the massacre i boarded in was useless against his lord. Land Waste Not. He attacks me to seven. I hymn him with 1 mana up and he uses Aether Vial to flash in a sliver. He discards a Force and a Land I think. I use the two mana and the one land to drop a bridge with two cards in HAnds and he can't find his Harmonic Sliver to blow up my bridge/rack effects and I close out game.

Round 2-G/U Infect(JD Nir)
Game 1- Mull to 6 but am able to keep him down on land and no creatures but he lands an Inkmoth and stifles my Wasteland. He hits me for 9 infect after two Invigorates and I can't find the Wasteland to finisih of the Inkmoth.
Game 2- Realize that I have nothing to stop inkmoth except Night of Soul's Betrayal which I Couldnt find in time for the tournament for sideboard. Bassically same as game 1 where he eot Crop Rotation for the inkmoth and hits me for 9 Poison and drops a second Inkmoth. Only have one Wasteland and die next turn.

Round 3- Merfolk
Game 1- He mulls to five but is still able to counter my hymn and drop two lords into play. But I draw 3 Shrieking Affliction and a Liliana and finish him quick.
Game 2- He counters two of my spells but it was all part of the master plan. I was able to hymn his hand away including an echoing truth then go to 2 from double True- Name but was able to resolve a Ensnaring Bridge and quickly close the game out with Racks and Liliana.

Round 4-Bant Shardless ThopterSword deck
Game 1- Land a turn 2 Waste Not into a Hymn discarding a land and another card into another hymn hitting a land and another card into The Rack and attack with Mishra's Factory. He gets double Thopter Foundry out with sword in GY but I destroy his lands with small pox and wasteland until he doesn't have a land out to activate the thopter combo and kill him with racks.
Game 2- Keep a shaky hand with 1 swamp and a couple wastes and a factory. He gets turn 1 Ancestral Vision but I never hit a second black for the Liliana and smallpox in my hand and he SFM up a Batterskull and beats me down.
Game 3- Long Drawn out game where I make a few play mistakes but it comes down to him being able to stay at two cards in hand by spinning and drawing with top every turn to match my Liliana so he doesnt trigger my Afflcitions but still getting pinged by The Rack. Finally draw a Null Rod and he starts losing cards. He has a ancestral visions coming off suspend when it is in turns and it would go off on turn 5 of turns. HE drops agent hoping to cascade into something to draw into cards to save him from the Racks and Afflcitions but hits the last Sword to Plowshares left in his deck and passes with no cards in hand. Pas back and it is turn five. Ancestral Visions last suspend triggers but my three rack effects go on top of his suspend trigger and he dies to damage.

Overall, in games where I drew waste Not, it performed well except the second game of round 4 because I never drew the black source for my discard spells. Think I am going to trim a Massacre and Perish to make room for a Night of Soul's Betrayal and an Engineered Plague. Comments and critiques are appreciated.

[jredelstein]

Thanks for joining and giving us a quick run down. Do you think you will have any time for a more in-depth report of your day?


Unfortunately I do not remember enough to give a quality tournament report. But I can give some highlights:

Round 1 I played against RW painter, my opponent was very friendly and turned out to be a friend of a friend. He was new to the deck which slowed the game down and we ended up drawing, game 2 took a long time where I didn't scoop bc all I needed was to top deck my forest for pernicious deed but I killed all his guys with innocent blood and smallpox so he could win fast either. (0-0-1)

Round 2 was against grixis counter-top (Jared Boetcher's invitational list) game 1 and 3 I won by wasting all his duals and smallpoxing his 3 basics. I lost game 2 to pithing needle on lily and deed, ensnaring bridge, and jace. (1-0-1)

Round 3 was a weird one, my opponent was an awesome guy playing elves, like round 1 he was also new to the deck. the first 2 games took a long time with me finding tabernacle early in both but him able to grind out the first and me the second. we didn't even have time to shuffle up for game 3. He was a good guy and I didn't feel like getting more draws (I went 3-0-3 to start SCG Providence a few weeks before) so I conceded, he thanks me, filled out the slip, I scribbled my name, and he handed to a judge. (He ended up filling it out that I won which I didn't find out about til 3 rounds later)(I thought 1-1-1, actually 2-0-1)

Round 4 involved a quick game 1 against miracles where he had no hand, one land, and a top at the end of turn 3 bc of inquisition, cabal therapy and Mishra factory to flash back therapy. I won with a quick bloodghast beatdown. Game 2 we had a similar start but with him on the play he was better off but was still land light (he kept bc of a enlighten tutor for RiP but I had abrupt decay) he still had top and looked at the top 3 in his upkeep, he picked up the first 3 and brought his hands together like he was brainstorming, I had my head down looking at my graveyard. He called himself out and we consulted a judge, unfortunately the rules do not allow the judges any room for leniency even though he did everything right, called a judge, did the honest thing, they where still forced to issue a game loss. I still felt like I was in a very good position and up a game but I never want to win like that.(I thought 2-1-1, actually 3-0-1)



Round 5 was another miracles match where small pox and wasteland ate away at my opponents lands and he scooped both games after counting the lands in his graveyard and realizing he didn't have enough left in his deck to win.(I thought 3-1-1, actually 4-0-1)


Round 6 was a more typical elves match where innocent blood, smallpox, lily, cabal pit, and tabernacle take over. 2 quick games. After this round I ran into my opponent round 3 and told him I went on a run with 3 straight wins and he informed me he had filled out the slip wrong (and also lost 3 straight). At this point I got really excited bc I went from being in a good position to cash to being in a great position to top 8. (5-0-1 which I now know)

Round 7 my opponent was playing Lands. His deck was very pimped out Beta duals and foil everything else with some Japanese and Russian foils mixed in. Game 1 he double crop rotationed very early for dark depths thespian stage, game 2 I wasteland lock him very early and win with bloodghast while he has no green mana sources. Game 3 was a great match, he led with wasteland, I played a fetch, he played exploration on turn 2 which I find to be the hardest card to beat in the match-up (their mana base is more fragile, as long as we can play the same number of lands as them we can wasteland them out). Luckily I had the abrupt decay on my turn so he only got one extra land drop. I found loam, wasteland and bloodghasts, while he crop rotationed for dark depths and found a loam and wasteland of his own. I wasteland and extirpate the dark depths. It was looking good for me as we traded land drops but I had basics and he didn't while I attacked with bloodghasts. Then he surgicals my loams and finds a maze of ith for one of my bloodghasts but the other is chipping away. It is looking good for him till I draw for the turn. . . the third bloodghast! He is at 8 life when I draw a wasteland for the turn and waste the maze, he has the option to copy maze of ith or grove of the burnwillows with thespian stage before I swing for 6 putting him to 2, he choses grove knowing he needs green mana. He needs to be able to dredge loam, hit punishing fire, cast loam and play maze, and punishing fire the other two bloodghast fortunately he was one mana short after flipping punishing fire for his dredge. (6-0-1)

Round 8 was UWR delver, if I could play this match-up all day I would. I am probably something like 10-0 in competitive matches against UWR since it became popular at GP DC. Between hand hate, smallpox, wasteland lock since then run little or no basics, and cabal therapy for batterskull this should be close to a bye. (7-0-1)

Round 9 (off camera feature match) My opponent was playing miracles in his first ever competitive legacy event. I had two great starts with hand hate into liliana of the veil and was able to keep him off jace. He did play a jace in game 1 but it only lasted a turn thanks to bloodghast and factory.

Round 10 ID (8-0-2)

Top 8 was on video, a nearly unwinnable match-up. I have looked into syphon life but haven't been able to fit it in. I have run Nethervoid but I don't really like it in this match-up it obviously comes in but I don't like counting on a 4 mana spell against a deck that should win on turn 3 or 4.



rlesko: Dredgeing vs drawing is one of the hardest things I have had to learn, it is half odds and half gut. I tend to dredge a couple time early to find a threat (factory or bloodghast) then I like to draw to have answers to their potential topdecks. This is also match dependent bc sometimes wasteland locks win the game. It is also nice when you hit a barren moor bc you can dredge and draw every turn.

sarahiscute: I like the additional green sources to help support crop rotation but Dryad Arbor is so bad with smallpox the I don't think I could play it. As I understand the ruling on smallpox is that bc there is a comma between each thing they happen in order so you are basically sacrificing 2 lands dryad arbor as a creature then a land. The order is also sometimes relevant bc a dredge player can discard a Bridge from Below then sacrifice a creature to get a zombie.

[OmniStrata]

Think I am going to trim a Massacre and Perish to make room for a Night of Soul's Betrayal and an Engineered Plague. Comments and critiques are appreciated.

I look forward to the day that metas have to stop running 1 toughness dorks due to all the Pox players rofl-stomping them with this configuration... :cool:

[PhyrexianPossum]

Is there a possibility for the Dark Depths combo in Loam Pox?

Also, how should I start buying cards? I have many of the mono-black cards (e.g. Hymn, Smallpox, Innocent Blood)

Decklist I want to buy (wahh for thousands of dollars)

//Creature (4)
4 Bloodghast

//Enchantment (2)
2 Pernicious Deed

//Instant (6)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Entomb

//Planeswalker (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

//Sorcery (18)
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox

//Land (27)
3 Barren Moor
4 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Cabal Pit
2 Forest
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland


Lastly, are one or two Explorations okay? Just so you can play 2-3 Wastelands after a Loam.

[rlesko]

Is there a possibility for the Dark Depths combo in Loam Pox?

Also, how should I start buying cards? I have many of the mono-black cards (e.g. Hymn, Smallpox, Innocent Blood)

Decklist I want to buy (wahh for thousands of dollars)

//Creature (4)
4 Bloodghast

//Enchantment (2)
2 Pernicious Deed

//Instant (6)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Entomb

//Planeswalker (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

//Sorcery (18)
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox

//Land (27)
3 Barren Moor
4 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Cabal Pit
2 Forest
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland


Lastly, are one or two Explorations okay? Just so you can play 2-3 Wastelands after a Loam.

Its hard to say what order you should buy cards in because you can build rack pox, land destruction pox (both mono black), or BG pox. If I were investing in Legacy I'd be sure to pick up Wastelands first since its the most useful card outside of a pox shell, followed by Liliana. from there, save for something like Bayou, everything should be pretty affordable. If you love playing Pox after building it, I would invest in some old Legends cards :laugh:

[Chatto]

Is there a possibility for the Dark Depths combo in Loam Pox? (...)

Lastly, are one or two Explorations okay? Just so you can play 2-3 Wastelands after a Loam.

- First, do some proxy-ing or borrow some cards of friends, it will give you an idea of what you really want.
- Also, play four Lily's.
- Playing Entomb means less LftL.
- I would also play something like Crop Rotation if I were you: entomb can net your combo as well, but I would rather not be too gy-depended and the drawback isn't that bad with LftL.

Exploration is a really cool card, I'm currently trying to make it work in a Dark Depths combo deck. I'm also trying to fit it in Loam Pox, but I don't know yet: I haven't figured it out how. One thing: in my opinion you don't want to play it while maindecking Deed...

Just my two cents

[zenitramleirdag]

went to a 49-man tourney last sunday with this list:

4 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 smallpox
1 pox
4 liliana of the veil

3 cursed scroll
1 nether spirit

2 night of soul's betrayal
4 innocent blood

4 dark ritual
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 mishra's factory
4 wasteland
13 swamps


SIDEBOARD:
2 spinning darkness
4 engineered plague
2 duress
1 surgical extraction
2 extirpate
1 nether void
1 ratchet bomb
2 pithing needle

* i apologize for the not-so-detailed report, i wasn't taking notes during the tourney and i'm writing from memory..

ROUND 1: BUG
game 1- i drew 2 innocent bloods, a cursed scroll, a lili and 3 swamps..he won the die roll and goes first and opens with a delver, on my turn i IOK'ed him, he revealed 2 goyfs, a ponder, a FoW and a fetch; i made him discard one of the goyfs..he hymned me on his turn making me discard the scroll and a blood..we exchanged discard spells until he beat me down with a counterspell protected tombstalker..
game 2- i boarded out the rituals and the sinkholes for 4 engineered plagues(they actually felt weak against bug), 2 extirpates, a ratchet bomb and duress..but almost the exact same thing happened, i traded removal and discard spells with him but in the end he succeeded in beating me down with a goyf this time....i think their threat-density is just overwhelming..i've always had problems with BUG..(lost)
0-1

ROUND 2: bye
1-1

ROUND 3: Maverick
game 1- i mulled down to 5 with 1 swamp, its not the best hand but i don't want to mull down to less than 5, my first 2 opening draws were unkeepable because they were "landless"..this made thalia much more effective on me..he then proceeded and beat me down with KoTR, etc..i know that maverick is a favorable match up but sometimes, luck is just not on our side, i forced myself not to entertain any negative thoughts and just keep on playing, i know that my deck is supposed to be good against this archtype..
game 2: i boarded out 4 sinkholes(i wonder if boarding out the hymns would've been a better idea), 1 pox, i dark ritual..i sided in 4 engineered plagues and 2 spinning darkness..i went first with a dark ritual into engineered plague than i pass..on my second turn, i ritualed into a NoSB..he conceeded..
game is 3: this was a long drawn out game..we started out normally, in the end i had 3 engineered plagues and a night of soul's betrayal in play..he PTE'd my lone nether spirit and has pithing needle on my cursed scroll and factory..we reached a state where we both ran out of resources..this was a friendly dude i played against and we both ended up laughing..game ended in a draw..i really missed tombstalker in this matchup..(draw)

ROUND 4: MUD
game 1: i won the die roll and opened with a liliana, from there she just started ticking up and ultimated twice, while factory beats..
game 2: he started his turn with a chalice of the void set at 1, that would've hurt, luckily my hand was full of 2 and 3 cmc cards..again liliana carried me all the way to victory, with the help of factories and scrolls of course..i just realized how difficult it is for them to handle an early liliana..
this has got to be the oddest match of the day for me..MUD is normally a difficult match up for me but my games with mud today seemed really one-sided, in my favor..(won)



ROUND 5: RDW
these games reminds me so much of edelstein's game against that burn kid where he can easily control the game and put it on on top deck mode but didn't have the tools to lock the opponent out or end it early..i had him down to 5 in both games but failed to kill him quickly enough before he recovers..again, i missed tombstalker in this match..(lost)


ROUND 6: Dredge
game 1: he went first and it quickly turned scary..dredge can be very degenerate sometimes..
game 2: i went first and duressed him, discarding bridge from below..on his turn, i surgicalled the bridge..that only delayed the inevitable, soon, ichorid's come breathing down my neck..if i drew a night of soul's betrayal or an engineered plague, it wouldve been great..but i did not..(lost)


thoughts:
i think i need to incorporate a clock in my build again..i really missed tombstalker in many games..i think it will improve my game against burn and give me a good clock on decks that can't deal with him once he hits the field, like BUG..
and maybe a singleton trinisphere in the board next time..
i'm giving it another go next time..

[Ertai87]

With the release of Waste Not, I built this deck and played it to a 3-1 finish at my local Legacy event this week. Here's my list followed by a brief event report:

Spells: (23)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Thoughtseize
3x Hymn to Tourach
1x Raven's Crime
4x Dark Ritual
4x Smallpox
2x Toxic Deluge
4x Innocent Blood

Artifacts: (5)
4x The Rack
1x Crucible of Worlds

Planeswalkers: (4)
4x Liliana of the Veil

Enchantments: (4)
4x Waste Not

Lands: (24)
4x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
1x Mutavault
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Bojuka Bog
13x Swamp

Sideboard: (15)
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Engineered Plague
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Ensnaring Bridge

Note: My metagame has a lot of combo in it, which impacted some of my deckbuilding choices. The 3x Hymn, lack of Sinkholes, and 3/1 split on Mishra's Factories and Mutavaults were due to card availability, although after playing the deck I'm not sure I want 4 Hymns.

Round 1: Vs Tombstalker Pox
This player has been playing Pox for a while in my metagame, to mixed success. I saw a Sinkhole in his deck while he was shuffling to remind me what he was playing.

Sideboard:
In: 2x Ensnaring Bridge
Out: 2x Toxic Deluge

I woiuld have sideboarded out more removal and perhaps brought in Leylines, but he showed me Tombstalker in game 1 (I knew it was in his deck already without seeing it, but I did see it), so I needed to keep in removal for that.

Game 1: I opened a 7 with only 3 discard spells and no Waste Not, Rack, or Liliana to put a clock on him, and mulliganed (note this was my first game ever with Pox, so it may have been a keep but I was inexperienced). I subsequently mulled to 4 eventually and died in short order.

Game 2: My opponent cast turn 2 Waste Not (the only copy in his 75, as I later found out) and I cast turn 3 Liliana. Then turn 5 Liliana, to avoid giving him a free card by discarding it to my Liliana's +1 into his Waste Not. And then turn 6 Liliana. And turn 7 Liliana. And then my opponent played turn 8 Mishra's Factory. And turn 9 Mishra's Factory. And turn 10 Mutavault. And then I died.

Variance, I learned, is a thing.

0-1

Round 2: Vs. Dredge

This player was playing next to me in round 1, so I knew what he was on as well.

Game 1: On the draw I choose to cast turn 1 Liliana rather than turn 1 Waste Not (with no followup) after he casts turn 1 Faithless Looting, intending on valuing him out with Waste Not on turn 2. I cast Waste Not on turn 2 and the subsequently die to infinite zombies + Flayer of the Hatebound on my opponent's turn 3.

Sideboard:
In: 2x Grafdigger's Cage, 3x Thorn of Amethyst, 2x Surgical Extraction
Out: 2x Toxic Deluge, 4x Innocent Blood, 1x Crucible of Worlds

Game 2: Opponent mulligans to 5 and apparently draws all his Narcomebas while I grind him out with The Rack. I also had Bojuka Bog in my opening hand, which my opponent was none too thrilled to see.

Game 3: I cast turn 1 Grafdigger's Cage. He reads the card and asks me a bunch of rules questions about it, all of which are essentially answered by "Sorry, you don't get to cast spells this game". Opponent didn't board in his anti-hate and loses by intentionally decking himself.

1-1

Round 3: Vs. Monogreen Turbofog

This matchup was actually in a pair-down; I was 1-1, opponent was 0-2. Opponent's plan was to play Constant Mists (optimally, but also other Fog effects) until it decked you with Otherworldly Atlas, Howling Mine, and Rites of Flourishing.

Game 1: I cast turn 2 Waste Not, followed by turn 4 Waste Not and turn 5 Waste Not. It's at this point that I notice that the 3rd ability on Waste Not is not a "may". Oops. Luckily my game plan and my opponent's game plan don't really interact at all, except that his Howling Mines make him draw cards to get out of Rack range, so I just put the brakes on the discard plan until I drop Liliana and ult her to wipe his Otherworldly Atlases, which were preventing The Rack from hitting him, and then The Rack burned him out in short order thereafter.

Sideboard:
In: 3x Thorn of Amethyst, 2x Surgical Extraction
Out: 2x Toxic Deluge, 3x Innocent Blood

I left in 1 Innocent Blood in case my opponent had a transformative sideboard. The Thorns were to make his Constant Mists cost more so he couldn't play them as much (I do have manlands, after all), and the Surgicals were to remove them if I could get them (or Otherworldly Atlas) into his bin.

Game 2: I keep a no-land 7 with a Dark Ritual and a Liliana. I hit my first land on turn 2 while my opponent spends his first couple turns durdling and playing a Howling Mine, and I promptly cast Liliana. I pitch my second Waste Not to Liliana to avoid a similar situation as game 1, and then game 2 proceeds much like Game 1, except without the awkwardness of almost decking myself. I cast a Thorn eventually but we both have infinite lands out so it does nothing, but was still better than the cards I brought out which were literal bricks.

2-1

Round 3: Vs. Tinfins

Opponent was borrowing the deck from someone else, and had never played it before today.

Game 1: I cast turn 1 Thoughtseize -> turn 2 Waste Not + Hymn. He gets Griselbrand into his bin, and I figure I probably have 2 more turns (based on his hand, which I knew due to discard spells) to stop him from going off and play towards a 2-turn clock. Then he untaps and kills me.

Sideboard:
In: Everything but Leylines and Plagues
Out: 2x Toxic Deluge, 4x Innocent Blood, 1x Crucible of Worlds, 1x Thoughtseize, 1x The Rack

Game 2: I cast turn 1 Grafdigger's Cage and notify my opponent that he is now on the Hardcast Griselbrand plan. Which he manages to do, and I answer with a Liliana -2 (from 7). Then he casts another Griselbrand into another Liliana -2 (from 7 again). Eventually he stops drawing Griselbrands and I tick Liliana to 7 again, and when I go to ult my opponent scoops.

Game 3: I cast turn 1 Ensnaring Bridge (off a Dark Ritual), followed by turn 2 Grafdigger's Cage and turn 3 Liliana, holding up Surgical Extraction. We both durdle for a while, but my opponent couldn't realistically win from there.

3-1

Overall, the deck seems quite powerful and I like it a lot. I managed to get Waste Not into play in probably 4 or 5 of my games, and I think it was very good each time, except in game 1 against Turbofog which was player error. I only made 1 or 2 zombies over the course of the day, so, at least in my metagame Waste Not is not a realistic win condition, but as a way to smooth your draws by drawing you into land to cast spells and spells to keep pressure it was very good. I managed to live both dreams of Waste Not -> Thoughtseize and Waste Not -> Hymn, and in both cases I managed to cantrip but didn't do anything broken.

The Rack was very good for me as well. I thought it was just a Modern thing, but it was quite good in Legacy as well. I liked that it wasn't a creature and thus could attack through Ensnaring Bridge and Fog, and multiples of them ends the game in very short order.

[zenitramleirdag]

With the release of Waste Not, I built this deck and played it to a 3-1 finish at my local Legacy event this week. Here's my list followed by a brief event report:

Spells: (23)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Thoughtseize
3x Hymn to Tourach
1x Raven's Crime
4x Dark Ritual
4x Smallpox
2x Toxic Deluge
4x Innocent Blood

Artifacts: (5)
4x The Rack
1x Crucible of Worlds

Planeswalkers: (4)
4x Liliana of the Veil

Enchantments: (4)
4x Waste Not

Lands: (24)
4x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
1x Mutavault
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Bojuka Bog
13x Swamp

Sideboard: (15)
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Engineered Plague
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Ensnaring Bridge

Note: My metagame has a lot of combo in it, which impacted some of my deckbuilding choices. The 3x Hymn, lack of Sinkholes, and 3/1 split on Mishra's Factories and Mutavaults were due to card availability, although after playing the deck I'm not sure I want 4 Hymns.

Round 1: Vs Tombstalker Pox
This player has been playing Pox for a while in my metagame, to mixed success. I saw a Sinkhole in his deck while he was shuffling to remind me what he was playing.

Sideboard:
In: 2x Ensnaring Bridge
Out: 2x Toxic Deluge

I woiuld have sideboarded out more removal and perhaps brought in Leylines, but he showed me Tombstalker in game 1 (I knew it was in his deck already without seeing it, but I did see it), so I needed to keep in removal for that.

Game 1: I opened a 7 with only 3 discard spells and no Waste Not, Rack, or Liliana to put a clock on him, and mulliganed (note this was my first game ever with Pox, so it may have been a keep but I was inexperienced). I subsequently mulled to 4 eventually and died in short order.

Game 2: My opponent cast turn 2 Waste Not (the only copy in his 75, as I later found out) and I cast turn 3 Liliana. Then turn 5 Liliana, to avoid giving him a free card by discarding it to my Liliana's +1 into his Waste Not. And then turn 6 Liliana. And turn 7 Liliana. And then my opponent played turn 8 Mishra's Factory. And turn 9 Mishra's Factory. And turn 10 Mutavault. And then I died.

Variance, I learned, is a thing.

0-1

Round 2: Vs. Dredge

This player was playing next to me in round 1, so I knew what he was on as well.

Game 1: On the draw I choose to cast turn 1 Liliana rather than turn 1 Waste Not (with no followup) after he casts turn 1 Faithless Looting, intending on valuing him out with Waste Not on turn 2. I cast Waste Not on turn 2 and the subsequently die to infinite zombies + Flayer of the Hatebound on my opponent's turn 3.

Sideboard:
In: 2x Grafdigger's Cage, 3x Thorn of Amethyst, 2x Surgical Extraction
Out: 2x Toxic Deluge, 4x Innocent Blood, 1x Crucible of Worlds

Game 2: Opponent mulligans to 5 and apparently draws all his Narcomebas while I grind him out with The Rack. I also had Bojuka Bog in my opening hand, which my opponent was none too thrilled to see.

Game 3: I cast turn 1 Grafdigger's Cage. He reads the card and asks me a bunch of rules questions about it, all of which are essentially answered by "Sorry, you don't get to cast spells this game". Opponent didn't board in his anti-hate and loses by intentionally decking himself.

1-1

Round 3: Vs. Monogreen Turbofog

This matchup was actually in a pair-down; I was 1-1, opponent was 0-2. Opponent's plan was to play Constant Mists (optimally, but also other Fog effects) until it decked you with Otherworldly Atlas, Howling Mine, and Rites of Flourishing.

Game 1: I cast turn 2 Waste Not, followed by turn 4 Waste Not and turn 5 Waste Not. It's at this point that I notice that the 3rd ability on Waste Not is not a "may". Oops. Luckily my game plan and my opponent's game plan don't really interact at all, except that his Howling Mines make him draw cards to get out of Rack range, so I just put the brakes on the discard plan until I drop Liliana and ult her to wipe his Otherworldly Atlases, which were preventing The Rack from hitting him, and then The Rack burned him out in short order thereafter.

Sideboard:
In: 3x Thorn of Amethyst, 2x Surgical Extraction
Out: 2x Toxic Deluge, 3x Innocent Blood

I left in 1 Innocent Blood in case my opponent had a transformative sideboard. The Thorns were to make his Constant Mists cost more so he couldn't play them as much (I do have manlands, after all), and the Surgicals were to remove them if I could get them (or Otherworldly Atlas) into his bin.

Game 2: I keep a no-land 7 with a Dark Ritual and a Liliana. I hit my first land on turn 2 while my opponent spends his first couple turns durdling and playing a Howling Mine, and I promptly cast Liliana. I pitch my second Waste Not to Liliana to avoid a similar situation as game 1, and then game 2 proceeds much like Game 1, except without the awkwardness of almost decking myself. I cast a Thorn eventually but we both have infinite lands out so it does nothing, but was still better than the cards I brought out which were literal bricks.

2-1

Round 3: Vs. Tinfins

Opponent was borrowing the deck from someone else, and had never played it before today.

Game 1: I cast turn 1 Thoughtseize -> turn 2 Waste Not + Hymn. He gets Griselbrand into his bin, and I figure I probably have 2 more turns (based on his hand, which I knew due to discard spells) to stop him from going off and play towards a 2-turn clock. Then he untaps and kills me.

Sideboard:
In: Everything but Leylines and Plagues
Out: 2x Toxic Deluge, 4x Innocent Blood, 1x Crucible of Worlds, 1x Thoughtseize, 1x The Rack

Game 2: I cast turn 1 Grafdigger's Cage and notify my opponent that he is now on the Hardcast Griselbrand plan. Which he manages to do, and I answer with a Liliana -2 (from 7). Then he casts another Griselbrand into another Liliana -2 (from 7 again). Eventually he stops drawing Griselbrands and I tick Liliana to 7 again, and when I go to ult my opponent scoops.

Game 3: I cast turn 1 Ensnaring Bridge (off a Dark Ritual), followed by turn 2 Grafdigger's Cage and turn 3 Liliana, holding up Surgical Extraction. We both durdle for a while, but my opponent couldn't realistically win from there.

3-1

Overall, the deck seems quite powerful and I like it a lot. I managed to get Waste Not into play in probably 4 or 5 of my games, and I think it was very good each time, except in game 1 against Turbofog which was player error. I only made 1 or 2 zombies over the course of the day, so, at least in my metagame Waste Not is not a realistic win condition, but as a way to smooth your draws by drawing you into land to cast spells and spells to keep pressure it was very good. I managed to live both dreams of Waste Not -> Thoughtseize and Waste Not -> Hymn, and in both cases I managed to cantrip but didn't do anything broken.

The Rack was very good for me as well. I thought it was just a Modern thing, but it was quite good in Legacy as well. I liked that it wasn't a creature and thus could attack through Ensnaring Bridge and Fog, and multiples of them ends the game in very short order.



congrats man, its always great to see pox finish good!
i'm a bit confused with the thorn of amethysts in the SB though..

edit: after looking at the report again..i'm surprised your turbo fog opponent was running other world atlas instead of font of mythos..

[Hardcore]

Thorns are amazing vs fast combo like PiF.

[Michael Keller]

Honestly, people should be really looking hard at Pox-like strategies. I know it doesn't appeal to all players, but when you've got Top 8s week in and week out where it's Delver, Stoneforge and True-Name Nemesis, decks like Pox should roll.

I think it's a great deck and incredibly well-positioned for the current metagame.

[zenitramleirdag]

Honestly, people should be really looking hard at Pox-like strategies. I know it doesn't appeal to all players, but when you've got Top 8s week in and week out where it's Delver, Stoneforge and True-Name Nemesis, decks like Pox should roll.

I think it's a great deck and incredibly well-positioned for the current metagame.

ditto to that..

what build would you run in a meta with a lot of "fair" decks? would you go for a green splash(loampox) or a white splash(holy pox)..or would you go monoblack?

[zenitramleirdag]

Thorns are amazing vs fast combo like PiF.

for a 2 cmc card to combat combo, wouldn't sphere of resistance be better for that purpose because it also affects creatures and uhm, he's not running any creatures?

[OmniStrata]

for a 2 cmc card to combat combo, wouldn't sphere of resistance be better for that purpose because it also affects creatures and uhm, he's not running any creatures?

One of my older deny builds I didn't run Hymn and used Sphere of Resistance in its place. Try to think of it as a symmetrical sinkhole. :cool: right out of the gate, combo decks get stuffed and since you're going to have 24+ permanent mana sources, it may work. I couldn't get it to work cause I love Hymn and my meta is slower. In a fast low cmc meta, Sphere is devastating.

[Hardcore]

ditto to that..

what build would you run in a meta with a lot of "fair" decks? would you go for a green splash(loampox) or a white splash(holy pox)..or would you go monoblack?

The question is "what would white and green do for me, against fair decks, that Mono B cannot?"
Your opinion on that is the answer you seek.

[Hardcore]

Here is my The rack/shrieking affliction list. It is just a test for goldfishing purposes but is perhaps of interest.

4 Bloodghast
4 pack rat
4 the rack
4 shrieking affliction
2 delirium skeins
2 dark withering
4 dark ritual
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 pox
3 Liliana of the veil
1 chrome mox
20 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage

Delirium skeins is very powerful. Like a pox.

[Chatto]

Here is my The rack/shrieking affliction list. It is just a test for goldfishing purposes but is perhaps of interest.

4 Bloodghast
4 pack rat
4 the rack
4 shrieking affliction
2 delirium skeins
2 dark withering
4 dark ritual
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 pox
3 Liliana of the veil
1 chrome mox
20 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage

Delirium skeins is very powerful. Like a pox.

Nice seeing you're still rocking Pack Rat :smile:


@ zenitramleirdag: I second Hardcore on his remark, and I would prefer a Loampox-build, but that is just preference right now

EDIT: I think my gut feeling tells me to go Mono Black, but I want to do the Green splash

[Ertai87]

congrats man, its always great to see pox finish good!
i'm a bit confused with the thorn of amethysts in the SB though..

edit: after looking at the report again..i'm surprised your turbo fog opponent was running other world atlas instead of font of mythos..

My metagame is very heavy combo, burn, and other spell-based decks. Thorn of Amethyst is basically Sphere of Resistance against them (in other words, really good), and I don't own Spheres but had Thorns sitting around in my binder unused, so I threw them in. Basically they're for Storm-type combo (including Tin Fins and Belcher) who can't win through it, and Burn, to slow them down. Your metagame may vary, but in my metagame they're useful.

About the Turbofog player, this player basically just plays whatever he feels like, and his collection isn't very big. He probably had a bunch of cards lying around and built the deck for cheap with whatever he had.

[zenitramleirdag]

Here is my The rack/shrieking affliction list. It is just a test for goldfishing purposes but is perhaps of interest.

4 Bloodghast
4 pack rat
4 the rack
4 shrieking affliction
2 delirium skeins
2 dark withering
4 dark ritual
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 pox
3 Liliana of the veil
1 chrome mox
20 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage

Delirium skeins is very powerful. Like a pox.

i like delirium skeins in rack lists, it a boss with the bloody g's! last rites is another card i like, its effective against combo..you might wanna try it..

its good to see that lily found her way back in your deck again..

dark withering looks good on paper and i'm sure it could work with all the symmetrical pox effects, but i wouldn't replace the innocent bloods with it because innocent blood does its work with no conditions..same reason why i never ran tragic slip in my list..i just feel safer with the bloods because you just gotta answer that turn 1 Mother of Runes, Deathrite shaman, Noble Hierarch, Goblin lackey, Vexing Devil, Goblin Guide and many, many more..........

and pack rat! great card for pox! i think its a card that can help improve pox' top deck problems, any useless land that you draw during a top-decking war can be fed to the rats, though i'm not sure how they'd operate and how effectively they'd fare under 7 pox effects!..i would try to run the rats if i also weren't running NoSb in the main..here's a successful lists running pack rats that i'd like to share:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=6576&d=237772

another thing that i'm curious about your build is that you're not running any :b: spot discard spells like inquisition of kozilek, thoughtseize or even duress to impact the game as early as turn one..i think this is very important for a mono black deck because there's just things that we can't handle once it hits the board and the proactive way of dealing with it via spot discard can spell the difference between winning and losing as early as turn 1..

just my 2-cents..

[Hardcore]

Well, since my preferred T1 play is ritual Liliana spot discards only advantage, cheap cost, is not that relevant. Besides, it is a Meta thing; I run into 12 post, miracles and bug/rug.

[zenitramleirdag]

Well, since my preferred T1 play is ritual Liliana spot discards only advantage, cheap cost, is not that relevant. Besides, it is a Meta thing; I run into 12 post, miracles and bug/rug.

the various :b: spot discard spells' advantage is not only its cheap cost but its impact on your opponent's strategy if it resolves early in the game..the most value that you get from it is not just its low casting cost but the fact that you can choose a card to discard from your opponent's hand..funeral charm is a cheap discard spell but casting it turn 1 is not so hot..raven's crime is also a cheap discard spell, but it wouldn't hurt your opponent much if you cast it turn 1, you get value from raven's crime in the middle and end part of the game..so i implore you to reconsider what you said in "spot discards only advantage, cheap cost, is not that relevant."..

if your preferred turn 1 play is ritual into liliana, i suggest you max your lilies to 4 to increase the chances of that happening..

[OmniStrata]

Hardcore's got the right idea. Why include 1 cmc target discard if your meta has no combo? He's got a more aggressive deck so he needs the Inquisition of Kozilek slots for threats. My local meta is a 'perfect' hybrid where aggro, control, and combo all exist so I have to run 1 cmc discards in my version of Pox.

Those of you with a higher threat count or more creature based metas should consider Cry of Contrition. I'd run it myself if I had bloodghasts in my deck.:eek:

[Chatto]

Cry of Contrition

I like that one very much! Question what would you guys play for MBP sideboard in a very very diverse meta? It goes from Delver to Storm, with the occasional Tribal. Some experimental rogue decks, but most of the time just pretty standard meta.

Right now this is what I have sleeved:

Creatures (2)
2 Tombstalker

Spells (20)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole

Other (12)
2 Nether Void
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Liliana of the Veil

Manasources (26)
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
9 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1 Nether Spirit
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Plague
2 Damnation
2 Pithing Needle
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Extirpate

Pretty straight forward... I really don't have the guts right now to experiment too much. So, some advice would be appreciated :smile:

EDIT: I almost forgot; there is also a bunch of guys playing (manaless) dredge

[coricho]

Great list!

I would use the 7-1cmc discard in a Dark Ritual-less build. 4 IoK and 3 TS

Manaless dredge you say?
Leyline of the void.
The force of will variant of the deck can't interract with it.
The Dryad arbor build can, but you "1cmc discard spell" the answer out of their hand.

How is Sensei for you?
I'm thinking of playing it, it's great when we are in top deck war (aka our goal)

Tombstalker is great but with 4 smallpox and 4 innocent blood I don't know.
What if they drop a KotR/Goyf and race the Stalker?

[Chatto]

Thanks! The deck feels great, but I'm still tweaking, and you have named all the tweaking points :smile:

Right now I just like the raw power of Hymn, and because I haven't had any problems I will keep this set-up.

Aah yes Leyline of the Void! Of course, but don't you want to play it as a 4-of? That would mean dropping my beloved Extirpate, but I think you are right :smile:

SDT has greatly improved how I play my threats, let me float some cards on top, basically gives me much more grasp on how to play this deck and the game as a whole. With three in my deck chances are I will have one by turn five or even earlier. Yes it is a bad topdeck, but with the inclusion of SDT I also included Fetchland to shuffle away those dead draws, just like any player would after Brainstorm. I would say in more disruptive builds like mine, SDT is a must.

I just need a fast finisher, and Tomstalker is just that. I am lucky not to have been in situations where I had to sac my lonely warrior to a IB or Smallpox. However, I would do it in a heartbeat! Also, with the inclusion of SDT you can float them most of the time (that's also because you only play two of them). Right now if I would include Leyline it would mean Some better SB options against those nasty Goyfs and Knights.

I was thinking about moving Tombstalker to the side in favor of Neher Spirit and Crucible, but I like it like this for now.

[Hardcore]

I have added a second Chrome Mox to my build; it makes turn one and two Pack Rats really nasty. Mox Diamond, otoh, sucks. Fantastic in LoamPox but for Mono it is easier to pitch spells than lands. A bonus is the low price of Chrome Mox^^

[zenitramleirdag]

if the meta is crawling with dredge, reanimator and other decks that totally abuse the graveyard; i feel i'd go for a playset of leylines in my board..but currently, their numbers have been attenuated by powerful maindeckable hate like DRS, RIP, scavenging ooze, etc. so i think in today's general meta, extirpates and/or surgicals would suffice(they're also effective against, combo and certain control decks)....still, it doesn't mean that GY decks are non-existent because you'd still occasionally encounter them, don't worry if you get blown out by dredge; i think thats a loss you can afford..

does your meta have a lot of dredge players? that's scary for pox!

when i was running a pair of stalkers a few weeks back, i actually liked thoughseizes more than the hymns in the main because its easier to force the tombstalker into play by getting rid of their removal or counters..

i've ran damnation in the board too, but i've replaced them with toxic deluges..because that 1 mana can sometimes spell the difference..but damnation is still sweet..

[jimmythegreek]

Got second this past weekend with legacy eight rack pox in a 31 man tourney(not sure if this is the right thread but the deck does have some number of small and big pox.) No real report, just some notes on the deck and opponents. Beat slivers, omni-show, ur delver, urw delver and death/taxes. My only losses were to miracles, the same miracles player beat me in the finals also. The deck I played was a creatureless discard pox featuring the rack, shrieking affliction and four main deck insnarring bridges. The bridges were awesome in the main and caught alot of people off-guard. Mvp's were liliana and thoughtseize all day. People all day were totally surprised by this deck and even more surprised to see mono-black in the finals. Brainstorm effects were a pain in the ass so im thinking some chains of mephistophles might be warranted? If people are interested in card choices or a decklist I would be happy to post my current creatureless pox list. Finally, this deck seems to be really well positioned right now and I couldn't be happier not playing a blue delver deck of sorts!

[zenitramleirdag]

Got second this past weekend with legacy eight rack pox in a 31 man tourney(not sure if this is the right thread but the deck does have some number of small and big pox.) No real report, just some notes on the deck and opponents. Beat slivers, omni-show, ur delver, urw delver and death/taxes. My only losses were to miracles, the same miracles player beat me in the finals also. The deck I played was a creatureless discard pox featuring the rack, shrieking affliction and four main deck insnarring bridges. The bridges were awesome in the main and caught alot of people off-guard. Mvp's were liliana and thoughtseize all day. People all day were totally surprised by this deck and even more surprised to see mono-black in the finals. Brainstorm effects were a pain in the ass so im thinking some chains of mephistophles might be warranted? If people are interested in card choices or a decklist I would be happy to post my current creatureless pox list. Finally, this deck seems to be really well positioned right now and I couldn't be happier not playing a blue delver deck of sorts!



hi jimmythegreek, welcome to the forum, congratulations..yes, we would like to see the list please..
too bad you couldn't post a report, we could've offered more insights..

[jimmythegreek]

hi jimmythegreek, welcome to the forum, congratulations..yes, we would like to see the list please..
too bad you couldn't post a report, we could've offered more insights..

Thank you for the welcome! I will post my deck list and any other relative notes once I leave work (and arrive at the beach:-).

[Chatto]

Hi Jimmy!

Congrats and like zenitramleirdag already said: a list and some insights on your matchups are more than welcome!

[beez]

Am I being too indecisive or instead wise with a toolbox anti-creature sideboarding approach?

Right now I have 1 Abyss mainboard and 1 each of Night of Souls Betrayal , Engineered Plague and Toxic Deluge in the sideboard. Obviously each of these are better against different types of decks than the others. I have thought about a second NOSB, but with no Rituals (Mox Diamond/ Loam varient) more than a couple 4cmc spells is too much when you include The Abyss as well.

[zenitramleirdag]

Am I being too indecisive or instead wise with a toolbox anti-creature sideboarding approach?

Right now I have 1 Abyss mainboard and 1 each of Night of Souls Betrayal , Engineered Plague and Toxic Deluge in the sideboard. Obviously each of these are better against different types of decks than the others. I have thought about a second NOSB, but with no Rituals (Mox Diamond/ Loam varient) more than a couple 4cmc spells is too much when you include The Abyss as well.

hmm, i've ran a ritualess build before in my mono black list..and my initial thought was not to put too many 4 cmc spells because it would make the deck too awkwardly heavy..but seeing Roberto Tomelleri's list made me reconsider, he has three 4cmc cards in his deck and he ran no rituals..so maybe it could work..plus, he has a singleton hero's downfall..its a solid spot removal but at 3cmc it feels too slow in legacy especially when you're not running rituals..but he somehow made it work..

[miccel]

hmm, i've ran a ritualess build before in my mono black list..and my initial thought was not to put too many 4 cmc spells because it would make the deck too awkwardly heavy..but seeing Roberto Tomelleri's list made me reconsider, he has three 4cmc cards in his deck and he ran no rituals..so maybe it could work..plus, he has a singleton hero's downfall..its a solid spot removal but at 3cmc it feels too slow in legacy especially when you're not running rituals..but he somehow made it work..
Hi...i use to play 2 cc4 in g1...post board sometimes 3..(actually I play 2 voids MD + 1 off SB and 3 abyss in my SB)...25/26 lands and 4 rituals!!! I can't play pox without rituals...only against miracle or bug shardless i don't like them!
Roby Tomelleri is my friend (i'm italian too)...he loves big demons but he tells me "your pox is better"...old school...
My last tournament was in genuary '14 but now i'm ready to come back in MTG...with pox of course!

Here my lists in 2013:

http://www.tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=0&nhigh=0&dlow=0&mlow=0&ylow=0&dhigh=0&mhigh=0&yhigh=0&player=michele+gaimarri&dname=&format=Noformat&aname=&main=&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on

(Last 1 is a suicide black...)

Now i've change my sideboard, i'm testing something like that:

1 void
2 chains of mephistopheles
2 p needle
3 the abyss
3 e plague
4 leyline of the void

MD i'm testing 1 mutavault (as a 5th factory) in place of 1 rishadan port...

Here my tool box for pox:

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/05/y4u9umu8.jpg

Sorry for my english(i can write only by smartphone)

Michele

[zenitramleirdag]

before anything else, welcome back miccel, you've been away for quite a while..come to the forum more often, we need more pox ambassadors..
i'll read and respond to your message in a bit..after i've finished doing chores..

[miccel]

before anything else, welcome back miccel, you've been away for quite a while..come to the forum more often, we need more pox ambassadors..
i'll read and respond to your message in a bit..after i've finished doing chores..
thank you, I had work commitments and family so the time for magic was little, I will try to be present from now on... ;-)
I wrote my tournament report in mtg salvation last year, i hope i can repeat any top8 as soon as possible and write a new report!!!
Work in progress...

[beez]

thank you, I had work commitments and family so the time for magic was little, I will try to be present from now on... ;-)
I wrote my tournament report in mtg salvation last year, i hope i can repeat any top8 as soon as possible and write a new report!!!
Work in progress...

Yes, work and toddlers make MTG tourney appearances tough. Glad you are back.

[beez]

I suppose my question was more with one slot in main board and three in the side what should be the numbers and split between The Abyss, Night of Soul's Betrayal and possibly Engineered Plague and Toxic Deluge? I may just try one of each and not necessarily use all of them at once but be more strategic. I mean Toxic Deluge is the only one that can hit all creatures, but you pay life and it is not a permanent. Abyss cant hit hordes, artifact creatures or TNN, Plague is very specific, and NOSB is poor against medium-big creatures. But they are all devestating agaings the decks that are effected by them.

[miccel]

I suppose my question was more with one slot in main board and three in the side what should be the numbers and split between The Abyss, Night of Soul's Betrayal and possibly Engineered Plague and Toxic Deluge? I may just try one of each and not necessarily use all of them at once but be more strategic. I mean Toxic Deluge is the only one that can hit all creatures, but you pay life and it is not a permanent. Abyss cant hit hordes, artifact creatures or TNN, Plague is very specific, and NOSB is poor against medium-big creatures. But they are all devestating agaings the decks that are effected by them.

In a prison-style pox i think that permanents are better than 1 "shot solutions"...topdeck toxic deluge/damnation in empy board can't prevent every opponent's topdeck... nether void, the abyss, nosb, eng. plague can do it!

However i don't like NOSB cause affect my nether spirit and my factories and makes me too slow.

No comment about eng plague, 1 of the best sideboard card for black based decks ever printed...

The flavor of the abyss is pure magic!
I've won a lot of games post board with this old fantastic card!
Ok, it can't kills TNN or revokers (but plague can do it) but can kill emrakul and griselbrand, a big goyf, a germ token...

I use to play voids MD to fight combo and control deck (void can kills aggro but abyss/nosb can't kill combo), for sideboard i suggest a mix of plagues and abyss...

[jimmythegreek]

Second place, 31 people tournament with eight rack.

Enchantments:
4 shrieking affliction

Sorceries:
3 innocent blood
1 ravens crime
4 thoughtseize
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
4 smallpox
2 pox

Artifacts:
4 the rack
4 ensnaring bridge

Planeswalker:
4 liliana of the veil

Lands 22:
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3 buried ruin
16 swamp

First off I must say that the list is a bit all over the place due to it being my second choice deck and not having time to put together a more optimal list. I honestly went Iin with intentions of maybe stealing a game or two, I mean come on, its mono black discard...........right? Holy crap I rolled everything from delver decks to omni-tell to death and taxes and even slivers, losses were to the same miracles player in swiss and final (damn you jace and counter-balance). My local gaming store has some really quality players, these were no scrubs. Im looking to optimize this list because I trully believe that eight rack effects with discard is a potential contender and can really crush unprepared decks. Mvps were lilianna, small pox and main deck bridges......pox was really lackluster as was buried ruin. I would really appreciate comments and appologize for the lack of report, ihave high hopes for this creatureless version of pox!

Ps. No sideboard to speak of ( had like one infest and four leyline of the void day of), would appreciate help there as well. My local meta is all over the place but mostly tier one decks.

[zenitramleirdag]

Second place, 31 people tournament with eight rack.

Enchantments:
4 shrieking affliction

Sorceries:
3 innocent blood
1 ravens crime
4 thoughtseize
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
4 smallpox
2 pox

Artifacts:
4 the rack
4 ensnaring bridge

Planeswalker:
4 liliana of the veil

Lands 22:
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3 buried ruin
16 swamp

First off I must say that the list is a bit all over the place due to it being my second choice deck and not having time to put together a more optimal list. I honestly went Iin with intentions of maybe stealing a game or two, I mean come on, its mono black discard...........right? Holy crap I rolled everything from delver decks to omni-tell to death and taxes and even slivers, losses were to the same miracles player in swiss and final (damn you jace and counter-balance). My local gaming store has some really quality players, these were no scrubs. Im looking to optimize this list because I trully believe that eight rack effects with discard is a potential contender and can really crush unprepared decks. Mvps were lilianna, small pox and main deck bridges......pox was really lackluster as was buried ruin. I would really appreciate comments and appologize for the lack of report, ihave high hopes for this creatureless version of pox!

Ps. No sideboard to speak of ( had like one infest and four leyline of the void day of), would appreciate help there as well. My local meta is all over the place but mostly tier one decks.

congratulations jimmythe greek!

i have quite a similar rack list before but i was never as successful as you were..the only difference is i ran bloodghasts instead of the bridges and IOK instead of the thoughtseizes..

your build certainly looks strong, the 4 ensnaring bridges in the main gives you answers to common strategies in legacy..your build also looks consistent because you have a lot of 4-ofs which i like..i agree, your build doesn't need rituals..

i also personally felt that buried ruin is glaringly the most impuissant card in the deck, but i won't totally remove it since your build looks heavily reliant on the bridges for defense, maybe keep 2 copies and replace the other one with other utility lands like cabal pit, bojuka bog, etc...pick your poison.........and if you can save up for it, wastelands...

my guess is that the playset of thoughtseizes together with a pair of big poxes getting your life dangerously low you reason for thinking that its(big pox) lackluster? i personally liked daddy pox in my rack list, maybe because i run IOK's instead of thoughtseizes..


just watchout for chalice of the void jimmythegreek, chalice set at 1 can really cripple you..
if pithing needle hurts pox players who run factories and scrolls..chalice of the void is a bullet to the head for 8rack..

and speaking of needles, i suggest a couple of them in the board to deal with jace or top..and you probably don't need leylines, i think..because the bridges can mostly handle what the leylines are supposed to handle like reanimator and dredge..i'd look for extirpate or surgicals instead for graveyard hate..but thats just me, im sure other players here would have different opinions or suggestions..

[jimmythegreek]

congratulations jimmythe greek!

i have quite a similar rack list before but i was never as successful as you were..the only difference is i ran bloodghasts instead of the bridges and IOK instead of the thoughtseizes..

your build certainly looks strong, the 4 ensnaring bridges in the main gives you answers to common strategies in legacy..your build also looks consistent because you have a lot of 4-ofs which i like..i agree, your build doesn't need rituals..

i also personally felt that buried ruin is glaringly the most impuissant card in the deck, but i won't totally remove it since your build looks heavily reliant on the bridges for defense, maybe keep 2 copies and replace the other one with other utility lands like cabal pit, bojuka bog, etc...pick your poison.........and if you can save up for it, wastelands...

my guess is that the playset of thoughtseizes together with a pair of big poxes getting your life dangerously low you reason for thinking that its(big pox) lackluster? i personally liked daddy pox in my rack list, maybe because i run IOK's instead of thoughtseizes..


just watchout for chalice of the void jimmythegreek, chalice set at 1 can really cripple you..
if pithing needle hurts pox players who run factories and scrolls..chalice of the void is a bullet to the head for 8rack..

and speaking of needles, i suggest a couple of them in the board to deal with jace or top..and you probably don't need leylines, i think..because the bridges can mostly handle what the leylines are supposed to handle like reanimator and dredge..i'd look for extirpate or surgicals instead for graveyard hate..but thats just me, im sure other players here would have different opinions or suggestions..

Thanks for the reply. I'm completely in agreement with not needing/wanting dark ritual in my deck, as some one said earlier a first turn liliana is sometimes just ok. Also, drawing dark rit late game is not super when I'm trying to shrink their hand. I can rationalize four ensnaring bridges based on the fact that magic as a whole is won on the back of creatures.........so why not cut of that angle all together. Chains of mephistophles seems to fit all to perfect in this decks sideboard, not to mention im just looking for an excuse to buy this card cuz its maybe the goofiest/coolest looking card. Ravens crime is so good mid/late game, essentially turning my crappy top deck into a " you take three from affliction and two from the rack" cuz you have one card in your hand during your upkeep. Any thoughts on a green splash for abrupt decay for counter balance and such? Also, I still cant decide on the best colorless lands for this style of deck. I have the wastelands but im not convinced their best fit here?

[Hardcore]

Ignore green. That is for defensive spells. Against miracles you may need mishra's factories. Something more powerful than 1cc spells in sideboard to be less vulnerable to counterbalance. Perhaps Delirium Skeins?

[miccel]

Ignore green. That is for defensive spells. Against miracles you may need mishra's factories. Something more powerful than 1cc spells in sideboard to be less vulnerable to counterbalance. Perhaps Delirium Skeins?
Against miracle all i want is an "online cursed scroll", factories are ok but are vulnerable to StP and terminus...post board chains of mephistopheles and pithing needle to stop jace/SdT.
However miracles is a bad MU for monoblack versions...

[slave]

Not bad Jimmythegreek.

3-4 LotV is a good start for sure > helps to shore up your hard matchups like Dredge etc.
But;
Should LotV not be in your first grip > since the faster LED-dredge decks can win before T4 when you might be dropping LotV (I don't like mulling to oblivion to search for hate) I would consider a few Grafdiggers Cage aswell.:wink:

[zenitramleirdag]

Against miracle all i want is an "online cursed scroll", factories are ok but are vulnerable to StP and terminus...post board chains of mephistopheles and pithing needle to stop jace/SdT.
However miracles is a bad MU for monoblack versions...

that's right and most miracles lists i've seen today does not maindeck oblivion ring and pithing needle..so you can probably steal a win first match coz' they'd have problems dealing with it..uhm, i'm not totally convinced that it's a bad matchup for mono black, its a difficult match-up though..if they start popping up more often in your meta, try more pithing needles in your board and ratchet bombs too..they're so effective against them..needles, handle their jaces and tops..ratchet bomb takes care of their angel token, counter balance.....

[miccel]

that's right and most miracles lists i've seen today does not maindeck oblivion ring and pithing needle..so you can probably steal a win first match coz' they'd have problems dealing with it..uhm, i'm not totally convinced that it's a bad matchup for mono black, its a difficult match-up though..if they start popping up more often in your meta, try more pithing needles in your board and ratchet bombs too..they're so effective against them..needles, handle their jaces and tops..ratchet bomb takes care of their angel token, counter balance.....
That's true! If fact my old list have 3 needle 2 chains 2 bombs in side...
My tournament record against miracle isn't disastrous...something like 3-2-1(w-l-d)...but my win are cause of my deck and MU knowledge...(not every player can play against pox)

Against a good miracles player is too difficult in my opinion...i need the best hand and top decks ever seens ;-)

However should happen that a "bad player" can starts the game with SdT turn 1 > CB turn 2 = GAME OVER!
In this situation i know that i'm not losing this game couse my misplay or opponent's skill...simple couse my deck can't fight against SdT+CB...frustrating....

The only way to improve this MU is splash green for decay (IMHo)...
But i'm mono black player ;-)

[OmniStrata]

I'm now thinking of running Plague Boiler in place of Ratchet Bomb.

"And thus, the Pithing Needler who thought he could protect his permanents in 3 turns heaved a sigh of great sadness..."

I actually don't get 'token overrun' much in meta and even if I did, I run Night of Souls MD and can go Ensnaring Bridge and Eng. Plague after Sideboard. To this end, I'm trading sheer speed and narrow target kill [cmc based] to blow up EVERYTHING... It's like a timed Pernicious Deed for X=infinity. Only testing will tell. It's harder to Counter Balance as well vs. a 2cmc spell

[Myelectronicdays]

Second place, 31 people tournament with eight rack.

Enchantments:
4 shrieking affliction

Sorceries:
3 innocent blood
1 ravens crime
4 thoughtseize
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
4 smallpox
2 pox

Artifacts:
4 the rack
4 ensnaring bridge

Planeswalker:
4 liliana of the veil

Lands 22:
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3 buried ruin
16 swamp

First off I must say that the list is a bit all over the place due to it being my second choice deck and not having time to put together a more optimal list. I honestly went Iin with intentions of maybe stealing a game or two, I mean come on, its mono black discard...........right? Holy crap I rolled everything from delver decks to omni-tell to death and taxes and even slivers, losses were to the same miracles player in swiss and final (damn you jace and counter-balance). My local gaming store has some really quality players, these were no scrubs. Im looking to optimize this list because I trully believe that eight rack effects with discard is a potential contender and can really crush unprepared decks. Mvps were lilianna, small pox and main deck bridges......pox was really lackluster as was buried ruin. I would really appreciate comments and appologize for the lack of report, ihave high hopes for this creatureless version of pox!

Ps. No sideboard to speak of ( had like one infest and four leyline of the void day of), would appreciate help there as well. My local meta is all over the place but mostly tier one decks.

Really into trying this list out. thoughts about running an abyss or 2 in here? (i just love abyss so much i want to run it always).. that and a tabernacle.

[zenitramleirdag]

I'm now thinking of running Plague Boiler in place of Ratchet Bomb.

"And thus, the Pithing Needler who thought he could protect his permanents in 3 turns heaved a sigh of great sadness..."

I actually don't get 'token overrun' much in meta and even if I did, I run Night of Souls MD and can go Ensnaring Bridge and Eng. Plague after Sideboard. To this end, I'm trading sheer speed and narrow target kill [cmc based] to blow up EVERYTHING... It's like a timed Pernicious Deed for X=infinity. Only testing will tell. It's harder to Counter Balance as well vs. a 2cmc spell

i liked this idea, i playtested with it too in the early incarnations of my build when i was experimenting with a catch-all removal plus it also fits our deck's theme of spreading sickness, he he he....i even tried the disk too..

never had the guts to actually run it in a competitive event though, i was too chicken..he he he..maybe you can make it work..

i just don't like the fact that it can also kill an active lily of ours :frown:

[beez]

Plague Boiler is a fun card. For even grindier decks than Pernicious Deed. In a Loam build you could even use Buried Ruin to Plague Boiler ad infinitum. Killing your own Lillies could be a problem there, plus Loam builds usually use Mox Diamond rather than Ritual for acceleration, and that would need to change as well to use Boiler or Deed.

[Chatto]

Second place, 31 people tournament with eight rack. (...)

Congrats! I never played this type, but sure gonna test this Pox-variant! What would you think about Green for Crop Rotation to get the DD/ Stage- combo (I just like to get this combo in all my Bg decks :smile:), some Abrupt Decay for random nuisance? I don't know about LftL though

EDIT: this would change the deck dramatically, nevermind...


Ignore green. That is for defensive spells. Against miracles you may need mishra's factories. Something more powerful than 1cc spells in sideboard to be less vulnerable to counterbalance. Perhaps Delirium Skeins?

I would not ignore Green, but I can see your point. Regarding Delirium Skeins: that card really looks like fun in 8Rack. I think it is used in Modern-version as well. Imagine; dump your Boodghast into the gy, drop a land and (hopefully) swing!

Another card to try Bloodchief Ascension

[jimmythegreek]

Really into trying this list out. thoughts about running an abyss or 2 in here? (i just love abyss so much i want to run it always).. that and a tabernacle.

Tabernacle would be amazing in this deck as would the abyss. A tabernacle that taps for black (having urborg out) is a dream of mine, finding room for abyss may prove difficult though. As far as my mana base (this includes prostituting myself for a tabernacle) Im thinking I dont want to play wastelands. My reasoning being that I want my opponents to play spells, not mana screw them hence leaving more cards in their hand avoiding rack/affliction damage. Playing creature- less seems too sweet with main deck ensnaring bridge, along with discard and multiple rack effects. I think two maybe three buried ruins are necessary considering how much I rely on artifacts. We do well against combo, swarm strategies seem to be a thing of the past and whats left are a bunch of tempo decks of which small pox/ discard can handle. Am I over-simplifying things, of course, my point is I think pox is very well positioned right now. Im now going to procede to the overpass where I'll be whoring myself out for two chains (ha....two chains) of mephistophles and a tabernacle.

[Myelectronicdays]

Yeah i think this rack version is heading in a great direction. The list is definately tight.. i agree it would be tough to get an abyss in there.. but I'd love to get an abyss (more of a love for nostalgia of it).. but yeah a tabernacle in there would be hot. I may have to do some selling to pick one up

[jimmythegreek]

Yeah i think this rack version is heading in a great direction. The list is definately tight.. i agree it would be tough to get an abyss in there.. but I'd love to get an abyss (more of a love for nostalgia of it).. but yeah a tabernacle in there would be hot. I may have to do some selling to pick one up

Lets face it....most people win magic through attacking with creatures, lets turn that option off all together. So you want to storm me out, this deck directly attacks the hand and actually wins through that process. As long as we can find a rack or affliction all should go to plan.

[FTW]

So everyone is playing 8Rack now? No love for traditional Pox?

Has anyone gotten Waste Not to "work"?

[Chatto]

So everyone is playing 8Rack now? No love for traditional Pox?

I can't speak for everybody, but I just like to test the 8Rack-version. Seems like it could work and apart from a minor investment I have all the cards lying around. Still love for Traditional Pox here, just like to try all Pox-varieties


Has anyone gotten Waste Not to "work"?

Proxied it, did some minor testing but didn't like it. It seems like everytime it hits the field, it's a turn after the additional 'discard-onslaught'. Seems like Waste Not does not have the impact you would like it to have. I can't think of any decklist or of people who made it work.

[zenitramleirdag]

So everyone is playing 8Rack now? No love for traditional Pox?

Has anyone gotten Waste Not to "work"?

i'm still on mono black, the prison variant..

how about you?


i've considered waste not, but my list is too tight right now that I wouldn't know what to remove for it..

[OmniStrata]

So everyone is playing 8Rack now? No love for traditional Pox?

Has anyone gotten Waste Not to "work"?

The inherent problem with Waste Not is that it doesn't do anything by itself. Unless you have Liliana on the field AND your opponent has cards stuck in their hand (cause you sinkholed them), Waste Not doesn't strengthen the top deck. You are also inclined to cast Waste Not first INSTEAD OF disrupting the snot out of them early game.

Don't pull the Dark Ritual + Waste Not + Inquisition argument. We're on the card by itself. The stronger each individual card is, the better off we are. If we have to jam our opponent's hand with cards (sinkhole) AND have Liliana on the field AND have discard spells in our hand, I think Waste Not is sadly, a waste.

I'm not running 8 rack. I love Sinkhole/Wasteland Pox too much. The rack also has the tendency to be 'played around' by smart players. On the other hand, one can't Pithing Needle Rack. However, Rack can't kill threats. :really:

[OmniStrata]

Plague Boiler is a fun card. For even grindier decks than Pernicious Deed. In a Loam build you could even use Buried Ruin to Plague Boiler ad infinitum. Killing your own Lillies could be a problem there, plus Loam builds usually use Mox Diamond rather than Ritual for acceleration, and that would need to change as well to use Boiler or Deed.

Suicide Lily has been worth it for me. Used her -2 to kill a threat while she loses all loyalty counters. In this case, we won't cast boiler unless something VERY problematic has to be dealt with, like Pithing Needles + Counterbalance with a fatty like Tarmogoyf or something staring us down. We'd likely side it out vs. Golgari color decks due to Abrupt Decay but I'll get to testing it in my meta some time. Also if we want to wipe the board and let Mishra's factories carry us home.

[sarahiscute]

waste not just increased in price, small pox 8th place:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=71385

[Rivfader]

Second place, 31 people tournament with eight rack.

Enchantments:
4 shrieking affliction

Sorceries:
3 innocent blood
1 ravens crime
4 thoughtseize
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
4 smallpox
2 pox

Artifacts:
4 the rack
4 ensnaring bridge

Planeswalker:
4 liliana of the veil

Lands 22:
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3 buried ruin
16 swamp

First off I must say that the list is a bit all over the place due to it being my second choice deck and not having time to put together a more optimal list. I honestly went Iin with intentions of maybe stealing a game or two, I mean come on, its mono black discard...........right? Holy crap I rolled everything from delver decks to omni-tell to death and taxes and even slivers, losses were to the same miracles player in swiss and final (damn you jace and counter-balance). My local gaming store has some really quality players, these were no scrubs. Im looking to optimize this list because I trully believe that eight rack effects with discard is a potential contender and can really crush unprepared decks. Mvps were lilianna, small pox and main deck bridges......pox was really lackluster as was buried ruin. I would really appreciate comments and appologize for the lack of report, ihave high hopes for this creatureless version of pox!

Ps. No sideboard to speak of ( had like one infest and four leyline of the void day of), would appreciate help there as well. My local meta is all over the place but mostly tier one decks.

Nice result, and nice take on pox!

I think I would splash some green for a loam/entomb/raven's crime package, instead of the bigpoxes.
And change the ruins into wastelands, if you pack loam.

I can imagine a chalice on one, or a leyline of sanctity ruins your day. Having access to green, I would pack Krosan Grips (also good against that Miracles matchup).
And definitely some surgical extractions/extirpates as gravehate, but also against control and combo along all the discard.

Regards-Rivfader


Edit: also with nether spirit to entomb for, you have something to stall against aggro if necessary, until you draw bridge

[bonkotsu]

waste not just increased in price, small pox 8th place:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=71385

Hello, this is my deck actually. I am tweaking the sideboard greatly. My only bad match was against Death and Taxes, player who took second was my only loss before top 8 and in top 8 and also a good friend. I am putting in a Tabernacle main board, putting chains side, and putting in massacre, perish, null rod, and pithing needle side.

[Chatto]

Hello, this is my deck actually. I am tweaking the sideboard greatly. My only bad match was against Death and Taxes, player who took second was my only loss before top 8 and in top 8 and also a good friend. I am putting in a Tabernacle main board, putting chains side, and putting in massacre, perish, null rod, and pithing needle side.

Hi Bonkotsu, welcome! Congrats on your results. Perhaps you can give us some insight on your deck? How did Waste Not perform? What were your MU's?

[bonkotsu]

Hi Bonkotsu, welcome! Congrats on your results. Perhaps you can give us some insight on your deck? How did Waste Not perform? What were your MU's?

Sure thing. Thank you! I have been doing hit and miss with affinity combo in legacy so I swapped it up. I did not make the sideboard at all unfortunately, I may have been able to do better with some changes. Firstly Bloodghast. I much prefer it over Nether spirit. Being able to come back off of land drops is amazing, especially if Crucible is out. Rack vs Cursed scroll, most games I have my opponent at 0 or 1 cards early on, having 2 Racks out just devastates. Cursed scroll being a single works fine for me personally. Chains main.... so I thought I would be playing more blue today.... Raven's Crime was a waste for me, I dont like it and I plan on subbing it for Zenith or Damnation. Then there is Waste Not. I loved this card the minute it was spoiled. Yes it costs two mana and technically does nothing right away, but neither does this deck. This deck literally just sits there and kills stuff waiting and waiting for 1 of its 2 win conditions. Bloodghast, rack, cursed scroll, and man lands work well, but what if every Liliana tick up or Hymn or Inquisition produced draw power, mana, or dudes? I love it personally. Mind you I think 4 is a horrible idea and two is just too weak. I wont play with less or more than 3.

Sorry for that wall of text starting out. On to my matches!

Round 1 : Death and Taxes (2nd place Phil Gallagher) Loss
His deck is much more aggro than control and grind. He plays more aggressive with this version and I just couldnt do anything vs him. Game 2 RIP hit the board so my poor Spinning Darkness did nothing.

Rount 2 : Dredge Win
This was an easy game. Waste not easily got there, then after sideboard I got Leyline out and proceeded to just control out the board.

Round 3 : RUG Delver Win
This game was almost as easy as Dredge oddly. Got rid of counterspells early, kept them off of lands and proceeded to man land and rack them down. I cant remember anything significant about this match oddly.

Round 4 : Junk Win
I was pretty worried about Goyfs, Abrupt Decay, and the draw from Confidant. Goyf got fat fast obviously but Liliana, Smallpox, and Innocent Blood kept them from ever getting a swing in.

Round 5 : Death and Taxes (different player) Win
This was a stars aligned kind of match. Turn 1 Ritual into Lili. Turn 2 Waste Not, Lili to discard a Ghast. After that it was chain discard and he conceded. Game 2 I ritual into Lili turn 1 again and he rage quits and concedes.

Top 8 : Death and Taxes (Phill Gallagher) Loss
Sigh... against his version I felt helpless. I was confident in my other matches but facing him AGAIN and in the top 8... just meh.

[Chatto]

This deck literally just sits there and kills stuff waiting and waiting for 1 of its 2 win conditions. Bloodghast, rack, cursed scroll, and man lands work well, but what if every Liliana tick up or Hymn or Inquisition produced draw power, mana, or dudes? I love it personally. Mind you I think 4 is a horrible idea and two is just too weak. I wont play with less or more than 3.

I understand the reason for the inclusion of Waste Not, and you mentioned some valid points, however the real questions I like to have answered are the following:

Did in any of your MU's where you got Waste Not online, you had the feeling that it could be replaced by some other card? Did you had the feeling Waste Not shined in this particularly Pox-shell? Of course, your 8th place says a lot, but let's just hypothesize for a moment :smile: So, basically, what are the pros and cons according to you for running Waste Not?

[bonkotsu]

I understand the reason for the inclusion of Waste Not, and you mentioned some valid points, however the real questions I like to have answered are the following:

Did in any of your MU's where you got Waste Not online, you had the feeling that it could be replaced by some other card? Did you had the feeling Waste Not shined in this particularly Pox-shell? Of course, your 8th place says a lot, but let's just hypothesize for a moment :smile: So, basically, what are the pros and cons according to you for running Waste Not?

The only time I regret Waste Not is when my opponent is hellbent. I just finished Sunday Legacy and I actually took them out for Massacre vs Death and Taxes aggro again. Certain games I wished it was an Ensnaring Bridge. Or even some form of board wipe (against Death and Taxes).

Pros:
Free dudes, card draw which is rough in mono black without the cost of life, and sometimes the free mana. Your opponent can miss play heavy discarding a land and letting you hymn them with the mana produced. Storm and Dredge running LEDs give you tons of free cards. Tonight my opponent playing storm was going to go off, I had 2 Waste Nots in play, he Ad Nasuem down to 1, and after discarding for LED I drew a bunch into my Mindbreak Trap.

Lili makes the card loads better. Every turn generating mana, draw, or a zombie has made Waste Not feared at my LGS.

Cons:
Obviously if your opponent stays hellbent then the card is useless. Your opponent can easily discard things that do nothing for you in creating zombies or mana. Depends on the player and match.

Overall:
I really do like the card. Is my version better than a "normal" pox deck? I can't answer that. Regular pox seems to just sit there with Nether Void out swinging for 2 here and there and not really doing anything. This version I guess is a bit more interactive in the sense you are "doing more" per turn. That being said I am fitting in Tabernacle and Nether Void to test out for GP NJ. I would love to fit in Sinkholes somehow. Too many players will play around my Wastelands. I kind of want to play Thoughtseize too but I do hate the life loss since I have so much already.

Advice:
I am new to Pox, yet I love it! I would love to hear any thoughts about the deck to help me as a player get better piloting it. I have it with me for modern and standard weekly tournaments and always legacy sundays. I want to grind out as much testing as humanly possible so that I am prepared for my next big tournament. The 31st I am attending another IQ so wish me luck!

[Hardcore]

Damage/loss of life is irrelevant as long as you win your games. For example; in my last tourney I won one duel vs burn by playing big pox twice (he lost to the rack).
Thoughtseize is fine untily you notice you lose games to it. Go playtest!

[theillest]

bonkotsu, thanks for the report and congrats on the finish. Did you ever bring out the contamination plan from the board?

[bonkotsu]

Damage/loss of life is irrelevant as long as you win your games. For example; in my last tourney I won one duel vs burn by playing big pox twice (he lost to the rack).
Thoughtseize is fine untily you notice you lose games to it. Go playtest!

I like you, sir

[bonkotsu]

bonkotsu, thanks for the report and congrats on the finish. Did you ever bring out the contamination plan from the board?

Thank you. No, never did. It got pitched after the tourny.

[lyracian]

Thank you. No, never did. It got pitched after the tourny.
Congratulation on your finish; care to share your current board? Have you thought of using Cabal Therapy?
Also do you know how many players were at the event?

Also, in no way trying to downplay your finish, Prison Pox made top 8 at the other SCG Qualifier last week -
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=71238

[bonkotsu]

Congratulation on your finish; care to share your current board? Have you thought of using Cabal Therapy?
Also do you know how many players were at the event?

Also, in no way trying to downplay your finish, Prison Pox made top 8 at the other SCG Qualifier last week -
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=71238


31 players or 33. My current board keeps changing. I am current still using 3 Leyline and 3 Engineered Plague. I have been trying minbreak and a 1 or 2 of, pithing needle, null rod, massacre and the such.

I saw that list actually and love the sideboard. It is much more traditional pox. I do plan on fitting in a Zenith main and Nether Void. Really wish i could use the sinkholes but Waste Not is currently taking its place right now.

[Myelectronicdays]

31 players or 33. My current board keeps changing. I am current still using 3 Leyline and 3 Engineered Plague. I have been trying minbreak and a 1 or 2 of, pithing needle, null rod, massacre and the such.

I saw that list actually and love the sideboard. It is much more traditional pox. I do plan on fitting in a Zenith main and Nether Void. Really wish i could use the sinkholes but Waste Not is currently taking its place right now.

any thought about squeezing an abyss in there? or is it overkill and better to just have in the sb? the list seems tight enough as it is.

[zenitramleirdag]

Congratulation on your finish; care to share your current board? Have you thought of using Cabal Therapy?
Also do you know how many players were at the event?

Also, in no way trying to downplay your finish, Prison Pox made top 8 at the other SCG Qualifier last week -
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=71238


the singleton bsz in the main is nice, other cards that can fit in that slot could be toxic deluge, drown in sorrow, damnation or even a second NoSB..

the lone pithing needle in the main looks kinda random but if you think about it, you will almost never have a game in today's meta that it would be dead; think DRS, aether vial, sensei's divining top, JTMS, etc..its a touch a player can do if he feels comfortable enough with it in his meta but personally, i feel safer with just another removal spell or another threat instead of it..

the 1-of helm of obedience in the SB looks interesting, i wonder if he managed to pull it off during the matches..and which matches did he board it in? that is if he even boarded it in..looks like a weak sideboard card..i think void/helm combo works best in a deck designed around it; with tutors etc, card draw, etc..but as a singleton in a deck with no card draw, i personally think that its a weak card for that sideboard slot..but it'd sure be a blast if you can luckily draw it and pull it off during top decking.. :laugh:

[Chatto]

Again a list without SDT... Makes me wonder, should I drop those from my MBP-list in order to make room for more business-spells? Also, I'm trying to fit in Waste Not, just for the sake of testing: should I stay MBP or go for a Green splash? List is the same as posted on page 59

[OmniStrata]

The only time I regret Waste Not is when my opponent is hellbent. I just finished Sunday Legacy and I actually took them out for Massacre vs Death and Taxes aggro again. Certain games I wished it was an Ensnaring Bridge. Or even some form of board wipe (against Death and Taxes).

Cons:
Obviously if your opponent stays hellbent then the card is useless. Your opponent can easily discard things that do nothing for you in creating zombies or mana. Depends on the player and match.

Overall:
I really do like the card. Is my version better than a "normal" pox deck? I can't answer that. Regular pox seems to just sit there with Nether Void out swinging for 2 here and there and not really doing anything. This version I guess is a bit more interactive in the sense you are "doing more" per turn. That being said I am fitting in Tabernacle and Nether Void to test out for GP NJ. I would love to fit in Sinkholes somehow. Too many players will play around my Wastelands. I kind of want to play Thoughtseize too but I do hate the life loss since I have so much already.


If you're playing Pox "properly" your opponent is hellbent because you WANT them to be. Hard to play when you have no hand you see. This is why Rack builds can still work in a less aggro environment. 2 here and there? There's a name for that, it's called winning with a Prison deck. Prison means they can't do anything and you poke them to death. Want to kill them quicker? I've found a great way to do it. Play 2 threats that deal 2 damage. And play one BIG POX. You'll end the game in 3 turns if they played a single fetch land.

Funny thing, I didn't need to playtest the card to know this would happen in my aggro infested meta. :tongue: My advice for Death and Taxes? Don't use Massacre. Main deck a single Engineered Plague [name humans] or Night of Souls' Betrayal. When I fought death and taxes, either of those appearing meant insta-scoop for my hapless white mage foe.

[miccel]

If you're playing Pox "properly" your opponent is hellbent because you WANT them to be. Hard to play when you have no hand you see. This is why Rack builds can still work in a less aggro environment. 2 here and there? There's a name for that, it's called winning with a Prison deck. Prison means they can't do anything and you poke them to death. Want to kill them quicker? I've found a great way to do it. Play 2 threats that deal 2 damage. And play one BIG POX. You'll end the game in 3 turns if they played a single fetch land.

Funny thing, I didn't need to playtest the card to know this would happen in my aggro infested meta. :tongue: My advice for Death and Taxes? Don't use Massacre. Main deck a single Engineered Plague [name humans] or Night of Souls' Betrayal. When I fought death and taxes, either of those appearing meant insta-scoop for my hapless white mage foe.

[miccel]

If you're playing Pox "properly" your opponent is hellbent because you WANT them to be. Hard to play when you have no hand you see. This is why Rack builds can still work in a less aggro environment. 2 here and there? There's a name for that, it's called winning with a Prison deck. Prison means they can't do anything and you poke them to death. Want to kill them quicker? I've found a great way to do it. Play 2 threats that deal 2 damage. And play one BIG POX. You'll end the game in 3 turns if they played a single fetch land.

Funny thing, I didn't need to playtest the card to know this would happen in my aggro infested meta. :tongue: My advice for Death and Taxes? Don't use Massacre. Main deck a single Engineered Plague [name humans] or Night of Souls' Betrayal. When I fought death and taxes, either of those appearing meant insta-scoop for my hapless white mage foe.
That's right!
I think that "the rack" is a funny list and it can work well in "good hands" but it's the "budget pox"...

I've never lose a game against D&T 2 tabernacles MD...3 abyss + 3 plagues post side are nightmares for any white mage!
...no one says nothing about my lists...sure i'm italian and my english is so and so but i'm a poxer since 1995 ;-)

[Myelectronicdays]

That's right!
I think that "the rack" is a funny list and it can work well in "good hands" but it's the "budget pox"...

I've never lose a game against D&T 2 tabernacles MD...3 abyss + 3 plagues post side are nightmares for any withe mage!
...no one says nothing about my lists...sure i'm italian and my english is so and so but i'm a poxer since 1995 ;-)

I've actually liked your lists the most so far. I like running sinkholes as well. I am actually hoping to try your list in the next week or so. (although I only have 1 tabernacle, and prob won't run the port.. althoguh I may try it if i can swing a foil one ;D)

[bonkotsu]

That's right!
I think that "the rack" is a funny list and it can work well in "good hands" but it's the "budget pox"...

I've never lose a game against D&T 2 tabernacles MD...3 abyss + 3 plagues post side are nightmares for any withe mage!
...no one says nothing about my lists...sure i'm italian and my english is so and so but i'm a poxer since 1995 ;-)

Unfortunately my budget isnt the best, I am borrowing Tabernacles from a friend who has a bunch of em, abyss isnt owned amongst our legacy group

[bonkotsu]

If you're playing Pox "properly" your opponent is hellbent because you WANT them to be. Hard to play when you have no hand you see. This is why Rack builds can still work in a less aggro environment. 2 here and there? There's a name for that, it's called winning with a Prison deck. Prison means they can't do anything and you poke them to death. Want to kill them quicker? I've found a great way to do it. Play 2 threats that deal 2 damage. And play one BIG POX. You'll end the game in 3 turns if they played a single fetch land.

Funny thing, I didn't need to playtest the card to know this would happen in my aggro infested meta. :tongue: My advice for Death and Taxes? Don't use Massacre. Main deck a single Engineered Plague [name humans] or Night of Souls' Betrayal. When I fought death and taxes, either of those appearing meant insta-scoop for my hapless white mage foe.

This is probably the most helpful advice I have heard for the deck. Our current setup for Sundays usually has a Burn player, Shardless BUG, D&T but he also has Miracles he sometimes plays or lends out, one player has several combo decks and RUG BUG Delver, Goblins, Elves, MUD, OmniTell, and Sneak and Show. I still want to do more with Waste Not before I make a decision for NJ. Thank you sir! :laugh:

[zenitramleirdag]

its good to have the abyss, whether in the main or in the board..if you don't own any, night of soul's betrayal can take its place..its cheaper but certainly isn't weaker..in some matches, it can actually be better..if your meta is full of maverick, DnT, elves, goblins, delver variants, etc..i recommend a copy or two in the main..provides virtual card advantage making a lot of their cards uncastable dead draws..

if miracles starts showing up more often, you may try maindecking 1 or 2 copies of ratchet bomb or even pithing needle..i'm actually liking the idea of a singleton pithing needle in the main..i should give it a try..

[zenitramleirdag]

@miccel

is this the list you're still running?:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12585&iddeck=92271

i see you have eschewed the hymns for more pinpoint discard in the form of thoughtseize..i think this boils down to preferrence, and i just love my hymns too much.. :tongue:
your lists looks tight, kinda reminds me of Shawn Riggin's list:

http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/1112

though i prefer your list because it has more threats..

have you tested trinisphere? i feel 3 voids in the 75 is a bit overkill; i feel 2 is a good number..besides, at 4 mana, you'd likely be casting it turn 2 except on occasional nut draws where you can power it out first turn via double dark ritual..how about replacing 1 of them with a trinisphere? or even sphere of resistance? they can come down faster..just my 2-cents..

[miccel]

@miccel

is this the list you're still running?:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12585&iddeck=92271

i see you have eschewed the hymns for more pinpoint discard in the form of thoughtseize..i think this boils down to preferrence, and i just love my hymns too much.. :tongue:
your lists looks tight, kinda reminds me of Shawn Riggin's list:

http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/1112

though i prefer your list because it has more threats..

have you tested trinisphere? i feel 3 voids in the 75 is a bit overkill; i feel 2 is a good number..besides, at 4 mana, you'd likely be casting it turn 2 except on occasional nut draws where you can power it out first turn via double dark ritual..how about replacing 1 of them with a trinisphere? or even sphere of resistance? they can come down faster..just my 2-cents..
Thanks for your advices..
I've talking about hymns vs t seize a lot with Shawn and other poxers...yes, it seems dependant on your preference (and sure i love my hymns too) but with a smothed mana curve change a lot!
With Cc1 discard:
Better mana curve.
Better combo MU.
More turn1 plays.
More information about my opponent durning early game.
I can play "only" 11 swamps and use lands lile tabernacles/ports/mutavault without a lot of BB problems.

Hymn is hymn...i know...is't hard playing monoblack without them in fact sometimes i use to play my signed set.. ;-)

My current list:

11 swamp
4 urborg
4 factories
4 wasteland
2 tabernacles
1 mutavault

4 ritual
4 IoK
4 innocent blood
4 sinkhole
4 s pox
4 lilly
3 t seize
1 n spirit
2 n void
3 scrolls
1 crucible

SB

1 n void
2 p needle
2 chains of meph.
3 abyss
3 plagues
4 LotV

Switch between port and mutavault to have an extra threat not affected by the abyss post side, and against a surgical/needle on my win cons...but i like port as 1 of in pox...

Yeah 2+1 voids are too much...but i love them!
Void kills combo burn and helps against control/counter decks.
Void is the only lockout stuff that decay can't fight.
Void turn 2 can sometimes wins alone...i play 26 lands (without fetches)...only lands.deck have more lands than me...
With void in play i can "cast & counter" my own useless spells and empy my hand easy for scrolls...
Cc4 is good and bad...with less than 25 lands i would not playing with 3 voids...
Nether void is old school ;-)

Other arctifact lock pieces are good...i've played trini last year..but void is the best! (Imho)

I like 1 p needle or 1 plague MD...but i've no place now...maybe in crucible slot...but crucible can sometimes wins games...i don't know...

[Bruno]

24 I will play a LQ with monoblack version.
In the last tournament I attended, the field consisted of many Sneak and Show, Belcher, Hypergenesis, Reanimator, Elves, UR Delver, Dredge and Big Red.
Last time I went with the following side:

2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Engeneered Plague
2 extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Spinning Darkness
3 Relic of Progenitus

It did not help me much in that tournament.
This way, can someone help me with a side for this field?

[zenitramleirdag]

24 I will play a LQ with monoblack version.
In the last tournament I attended, the field consisted of many Sneak and Show, Belcher, Hypergenesis, Reanimator, Elves, UR Delver, Dredge and Big Red.
Last time I went with the following side:

2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Engeneered Plague
2 extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Spinning Darkness
3 Relic of Progenitus

It did not help me much in that tournament.
This way, can someone help me with a side for this field?


i honestly don't know what went wrong..your sideboard seems to cover all decks that you mentioned, except maybe belcher, because you don't have any sphere or void effects to permanently lock them out but then again you have discard main..

how did they "not help you in the tournament"? did you not draw them? did your opponent counter them or destroyed them?

details, details.. :cool:

[Bruno]

i honestly don't know what went wrong..your sideboard seems to cover all decks that you mentioned, except maybe belcher, because you don't have any sphere or void effects to permanently lock them out but then again you have discard main..

how did they "not help you in the tournament"? did you not draw them? did your opponent counter them or destroyed them?

details, details.. :cool:


Sorry have not given more information. rs
I believe 4 Engeneered Plague is too much for my field.
Missed more extirpates and pithing needle to stop Grisels.
Ensnaring Bridge was too slow against Reanimators, Hypergenesis and sometimes even against Sneak and Show. Usually I tried to put in play but was countered.
Spinning Darkness was a waste of slot.
I feel completely helpless against dredge.

My games were:

Sneak and Show 2 x 1 Pox
Reanimator 2 x 1 Pox
Pox 2 x 0 UR Delver
Hypergenesis 2 x 0 Pox
Dredge 2 x 0 Pox

[Smea.gol.lum]

I feel completely helpless against dredge.


I think that Waste Not is very important in this matchup and improves it quite a bit.
Try to mulligan aggressively into a hand with hate or Waste Not.

Here's my current list:

MD:
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Waste Not (perhaps 4 is too much)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Innocent Blood
1 Dismember (for creatures with flash like Snapcaster Mage and Vendilion Clique and animated lands)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Toxic Deluge (helps a lot against decks that try to overwhelm you with creatures like Affinity/tribal decks or cards like Empty the Warrens, Lingering Souls and Young Pyromancer that are very troublesome for Pox)
1 Nether Spirit
2 Cursed Scroll

3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
7 Swamp

SB:
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Engineered Plague
2 Cabal Therapy (nice synergy with Waste Not)
2 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate

[Bruno]

My current deck:



1 Nether Spirit
2 Tombstalker

2 Bojuka Bog
2 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
7 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nether Void
1 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 Spinning Darkness

[coricho]

@ Bruno

Dredge is one the worst matchup for Pox as you realized, but it is still winnable

I beat dredge last tourney with Prison Pox. I lost game 1 without playing anything.
When he casted Cabal therapy I conseded. No information for him on what I was on.

My SB was

4x Leyline of the void
3x Engineered Plague
3x Ensnaring bridge
3x Pithing needle (that's a lot, I replaced one with spinning darkness for the burn matchup)
2x Trinisphere

LotV, Plague and Bridge went in.
I mulligan until I have the void. (Pox is dead anyway without any hate against dredge anyway, so why not play Void !)
Inquisition his Chains of vapor/nature claims or cantrip.
Destoy their land.
Put the lock piece into play each turn. Nail that coffin!
I play 2x Night of Souls' Betrayal Main board. This in play + a Engineered plague on zombie is probably game.

LotV should buy enough time to put lock piece into play.

If not, 2x extirpate/surgical on ichorid and bridge is game for you, but you need 2 in hand real quick.

[miccel]

@ Bruno

Dredge is one the worst matchup for Pox as you realized, but it is still winnable

I beat dredge last tourney with Prison Pox. I lost game 1 without playing anything.
When he casted Cabal therapy I conseded. No information for him on what I was on.

My SB was

4x Leyline of the void
3x Engineered Plague
3x Ensnaring bridge
3x Pithing needle (that's a lot, I replaced one with spinning darkness for the burn matchup)
2x Trinisphere

LotV, Plague and Bridge went in.
I mulligan until I have the void. (Pox is dead anyway without any hate against dredge anyway, so why not play Void !)
Inquisition his Chains of vapor/nature claims or cantrip.
Destoy their land.
Put the lock piece into play each turn. Nail that coffin!
I play 2x Night of Souls' Betrayal Main board. This in play + a Engineered plague on zombie is probably game.

LotV should buy enough time to put lock piece into play.

If not, 2x extirpate/surgical on ichorid and bridge is game for you, but you need 2 in hand real quick.
An other way to fight dredge...LotV+ palgue(horror)+tabernacle, and than any lockout effect like void...
G1 is impossible!

[Hardcore]

Not quite. You can still try race him. It can be done vs burn using the rack etc.
This depend on your turn one starting hand of course. Note that in this scenario you should NOT be afraid of casting pox.

[Chatto]

A friend of mine, while not playing Pox, always says that he NEVER took out Hymn against Dredge. His reasoning was that Dredge always needs to discard certain cards, and Hymn just is a pain in the ass. Well, I always thought this is really weird, but he managed to top 60 the GP Paris this year, beating Dredge one or two times if I'm not mistaken. My question to you guys: do you agree with this reasoning, or not?

[miccel]

A friend of mine, while not playing Pox, always says that he NEVER took out Hymn against Dredge. His reasoning was that Dredge always needs to discard certain cards, and Hymn just is a pain in the ass. Well, I always thought this is really weird, but he managed to top 60 the GP Paris this year, beating Dredge one or two times if I'm not mistaken. My question to you guys: do you agree with this reasoning, or not?
No.
Don't side out Iok/seize is ok...hymn is too dangerous...in my opinion

[OmniStrata]

A friend of mine, while not playing Pox, always says that he NEVER took out Hymn against Dredge. His reasoning was that Dredge always needs to discard certain cards, and Hymn just is a pain in the ass. Well, I always thought this is really weird, but he managed to top 60 the GP Paris this year, beating Dredge one or two times if I'm not mistaken. My question to you guys: do you agree with this reasoning, or not?

Hymn may hit cards Dredge wants to hard cast. Like Careful Study or Breakthrough. However, it also may hit cards he wants to discard, like Bridge from Below or Ichorid. Ultimately, this randomness is bad. I'd side out Hymn, but I WOULDN'T side out Sinkhole. Oddly enough, being unable to cast anything in Dredge is actually a BAD thing. Inquisition of Kozilek will hit everything

If they can't cast any of their 1 cmc draw spells to 'dredge' faster, it's a significant setback. Night of Souls + E. Plague on Zombies is usually lights out since no Dread Returns can be flashbacked to create zombies. Ichorid and Narcomoeba are extirpated lol.

Take note of the post earlier where somebody saw an opening Cabal Therapy, assumed Dredge, and simply conceded before even playing a land or revealing his hand. I've found that strategy also works against combo and burn very readily and they won't know what to sideboard. It's a sharp tactic that deserves mention.

[sarahiscute]

hi, decided to leave out most 1 cmc cards:

wrench mind seem like a good card.

//Lands
2 Cabal Pit
4 Mishra's Factory
8 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

//Spells
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 The Rack
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Dark Ritual
2 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 The Abyss
4 Wrench Mind

//Creatures
4 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Karakas

[miccel]

hi, decided to leave out most 1 cmc cards:

wrench mind seem like a good card.

//Lands
2 Cabal Pit
4 Mishra's Factory
8 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

//Spells
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 The Rack
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Dark Ritual
2 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 The Abyss
4 Wrench Mind

//Creatures
4 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Karakas
I think that with only14 black lands you've too many BB and BBB...wasteland on your urborg should be fatal for you..

[zenitramleirdag]

My current deck:



1 Nether Spirit
2 Tombstalker

2 Bojuka Bog
2 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
7 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nether Void
1 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 Spinning Darkness



2 tombstalkers
2 cabal pits
1 spinning darkness

-i'm a bit iffy about this configuration for obvious reasons..
how's it working for you..

[Bruno]

2 tombstalkers
2 cabal pits
1 spinning darkness

-i'm a bit iffy about this configuration for obvious reasons..
how's it working for you..

It did not work.
I do not know what else to try. I'm quite disappointed with my last results.

[Teluin]

Here's mine if you want to try it out. Waste Not is a very good card, and amazing if you have more than one on the board. I removed the Dark Rituals because they are card disadvantage for tempo - we don't need that fast of a start as this is a prison-style of deck, aka it goes for the long game. Waste Not can also help supplement the mana once on the board. I do want to sideboard 4 Dark Ritual vs. combo decks, but haven't decided what to remove yet. I am also considering removing the 1 Ensnaring Bridge for a Sensei's Divining Top as it can be a bitch with all the zombies the Waste Nots can create.

Land

2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Mutavault
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
12 Swamp

Total: 24

Creatures

1 Nether Spirit

Total: 1

Spells

4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
1 Nether Void
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Inquisition of Kozilek/Encroach
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Waste Not
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Thoughtseize

Total: 35

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Plague

[Bruno]

I'll try this deck this weekend:


1 Nether Spirit

4 Mishra's Factory
12 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

2 Cursed Scroll
4 Dark Ritual
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nether Void
2 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Waste Not

[bonkotsu]

Here's mine if you want to try it out. Waste Not is a very good card, and amazing if you have more than one on the board. I removed the Dark Rituals because they are card disadvantage for tempo - we don't need that fast of a start as this is a prison-style of deck, aka it goes for the long game. Waste Not can also help supplement the mana once on the board. I do want to sideboard 4 Dark Ritual vs. combo decks, but haven't decided what to remove yet. I am also considering removing the 1 Ensnaring Bridge for a Sensei's Divining Top as it can be a bitch with all the zombies the Waste Nots can create.


Now this list I am curious about. How do you deal with all the BB costs in your deck? I have had quite a few games lately where having the ritual has saved me soo hard creating the multiple black. I do dislike ensnaring main, side it seems fine. Top seems legit, also unsure if I like the 4 Waste Not. I hated running 4 in modern and have a happy 3 roughly in legacy. How are your match ups vs Tier 1 decks? My biggest struggle lately has been Death and Taxes.

[coricho]

@ Bruno

24 lands doesn't seem enough with 6 "Pox" effect.

I would do something like
-1 Pox (5 "Pox" Effect is enough)
-1 Sinkhole ("weakest" card of Pox (but a personnal favorite) )

+1 Swamp (to recover from "Pox" effect easily)
+1 Hymn to tourach (2 for 1)

I like cursed scroll a lot.
Most of my opponent use Pithing Needle on Cursed Scroll.
That's the card that annoys them the most.
Liliana is easier to beat than the srcoll.

So I would tweak like that

-1 Waste Not
+1 Cursed scroll (good cardboard is good)

That's my personnal taste, of course.
I'm not a fan of waste not in Pox.

Have you consider Night of Souls' Betrayal maindeck?
A lot of player scoff at the card but a resolved NoSB is hell
for an Patriot Delver deck. Same for DnT, BRUG delver, elves, etc.
It helps all our innocent blood, smallpox, pox and they draw useless card over and over.

What do your sideboard look like and what matchup do you expect ?

Peace.