[Primer/Deck] Pox

[draugr]

The extra lands has a bonus purpose. Sideboarding ease. It's fine to side out 2 swamps when your manabase is really thick. What's more, Mono B Poxers still need to be wary of Wasteland enemies who target their Factories and Urborgs.

In fact, if my enemies ran more Land Destruction than the usual Wasteland setups, I'd probably consider ditching Mishra's and going the Chimeric Idol route. I almost miss that thing since it's far easier to disrupt and attack with Idol than Mishra's which eats up two mana to attack. However, the 24 mana base gives me a solid growth of lands. I will play to 6 lands, but I only have space for 1 Big Pox and 3 Prison cells: Night of Soul's Betrayal, Engineered Plague (totally worth 1 maindeck), and Trinisphere.


I thought everyone forgot about Chimeric Idol, I miss the thing too! However, I think Cursed Scroll is too good of a card to have in MD and it doesn't interact well with the Idol :-(

[beez]

I thought everyone forgot about Chimeric Idol, I miss the thing too! However, I think Cursed Scroll is too good of a card to have in MD and it doesn't interact well with the Idol :-(

I had Chimeric Idol in my first Pox build. It's good not to forget about cards. You never know when their time might come to be useful again based on metagame changes. Don't sleep on Haunted Plate Mail either. I like a singleton of that one too in MBP.

[OmniStrata]

I had Chimeric Idol in my first Pox build. It's good not to forget about cards. You never know when their time might come to be useful again based on metagame changes. Don't sleep on Haunted Plate Mail either. I like a singleton of that one too in MBP.

I too had Gamera statue [lol] in my first Pox build. It'd replace both Mishra's and Scroll. Without Liliana, Cursed Scroll actually becomes harder to use and the original Pox thread stated that it's not a good Win Con due to the price. I have to admit, 3 mana and a single card in hand to deliver just 2 consistent damage is asking a lot, but Liliana makes it succeed. 3 cmc shocks... eww...

Damn, now I'm tempted to try it if my meta had no 2 toughness threats lol.

[coricho]

I too had Gamera statue [lol] in my first Pox build. It'd replace both Mishra's and Scroll. Without Liliana, Cursed Scroll actually becomes harder to use and the original Pox thread stated that it's not a good Win Con due to the price. I have to admit, 3 mana and a single card in hand to deliver just 2 consistent damage is asking a lot, but Liliana makes it succeed. 3 cmc shocks... eww...

Damn, now I'm tempted to try it if my meta had no 2 toughness threats lol.

I've had good result with Cursed Scroll as a wincon and with liliana
the board control is great. Scroll a small creature, tick lily up.
Scroll to the face, tick lily down a big creature
Scroll at upkeep if need be, before the draw if you have a card in hand and don't want to reveil the wrong card.

And with Night of Souls' Betrayal it's even better.
NoSB may be replaced with Ensnaring bridge or Trinisphere/void if NoSB is not a lock appropriate for the matchup.

[zenitramleirdag]

I've had good result with Cursed Scroll as a wincon and with liliana
the board control is great. Scroll a small creature, tick lily up.
Scroll to the face, tick lily down a big creature
Scroll at upkeep if need be, before the draw if you have a card in hand and don't want to reveil the wrong card.

And with Night of Souls' Betrayal it's even better.
NoSB may be replaced with Ensnaring bridge or Trinisphere/void if NoSB is not a lock appropriate for the matchup.

i am currently not main decking any void/sphere effects, i've relegated them in the sideboard for the combo matchup..my current build is more geared towards TC delvers which are running rampant lately, hence the maindeck NoSB, a plague and spinning darkness..are you also on mono black?

[coricho]

i am currently not main decking any void/sphere effects, i've relegated them in the sideboard for the combo matchup..my current build is more geared towards TC delvers which are running rampant lately, hence the maindeck NoSB, a plague and spinning darkness..are you also on mono black?


Yes I am on mono black.
I play your typical Reid Duke list and run two NoSB + one plague mainboard as well.
I sometime swap the plague for an actual Pox (5th smallpox)
I have 2 bridge and 2 trinisphere +1 sphere of resistance in the board as lock piece against fatties or combo.

Spinning Darkness seems a good idea, the burn matchup is a struggle.
Do you play sinkhole?

[zenitramleirdag]

Yes I am on mono black.
I play your typical Reid Duke list and run two NoSB + one plague mainboard as well.
I sometime swap the plague for an actual Pox (5th smallpox)
I have 2 bridge and 2 trinisphere +1 sphere of resistance in the board as lock piece against fatties or combo.

Spinning Darkness seems a good idea, the burn matchup is a struggle.
Do you play sinkhole?

so's mine..2 NoSB, a lone plague, 3 innocent bloods and 2 spinning darkness(i have another one in the board) in the main..

3 spinning darkness and 2 trinispheres in my 75 improved my burn and delver match-up a lot..i suggest you give SD a shot, you wont regret it, its ability is so relevant in a meta crawling with RDW and delver variants..not to mention its also strong against other decks like DnT, merfolk and maverick..

yes, i am running sinkholes..

[OmniStrata]

I've had good result with Cursed Scroll as a wincon and with liliana
the board control is great. Scroll a small creature, tick lily up.
Scroll to the face, tick lily down a big creature
Scroll at upkeep if need be, before the draw if you have a card in hand and don't want to reveil the wrong card.

And with Night of Souls' Betrayal it's even better.
NoSB may be replaced with Ensnaring bridge or Trinisphere/void if NoSB is not a lock appropriate for the matchup.

My maindeck has Night of Souls' Betrayal AND Trinisphere. :cool: Only one 3sphere though. I didn't think it'd be that relevant late game but since I'm packing 17 land killing cards, I can keep someone below 4 lands almost indefinitely.

People tend to use Liliana incorrectly in my opinion. One person I observed had her put 2 creatures in one pile and all the land in another (8 land). You should almost NEVER have an 'all lands' pile with her (unless you're winning so hard that that's the only permanent they control :laugh:). I would have put as close to half as I can. For instance, 2 creatures and 3 basics, and then the non-basics in another pile.

Against my friend who uses Crucible of Worlds, I will put the crucible in one pile and all the lands/permanents in the rest. He'll go ahead and sac everything except the crucible and that helps him recover. Those are very rare circumstances however where you NEED to stop the GY enabling card. Unfortunately, I don't have any big threats due to Ensnaring Bridge in my 75. :frown:

Leyline of the Void ftw.

[OmniStrata]

Spinning Darkness seems a good idea, the burn matchup is a struggle.

For burn, your most efficient sideboard is Sun Droplet. For Black enchantments, Bloodchief Ascension is all you have I guess, unless you're aggro pox with a Basilisk Collar or Vampiric Link :eek:. I've found spinning Darkness to be better vs. creature strategies than a single Bolt detterent.

[zenitramleirdag]

@coricho
yes, sun droplet seems like another good tool we have against burn, i personally haven't tried it but many people attest to it so i suggest you also give it a shot..

[jroharo]

For burn, your most efficient sideboard is Sun Droplet. For Black enchantments, Bloodchief Ascension is all you have I guess, unless you're aggro pox with a Basilisk Collar or Vampiric Link :eek:. I've found spinning Darkness to be better vs. creature strategies than a single Bolt detterent.

I run Zuran Orb, personally.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Why don't you guys play Choke in this deck?

[pettdan]

Why don't you guys play Choke in this deck?

It's not very synergetic with smallpox, one of the core cards of this archetype. If the opponent has a tapped island and you have a choke in play, a resolved smallpox will not affect the opponent's gamestate landwise since he/she will sac the tapped island. It's a great card, choke, but not at its best next to smallpox.

Similarly I'd imagine that most of the opponent's duals will be blue and thus useful only once with choke in play, so wasteland may also be less usefull than ordinarily when you are wasting his non-untapping lands. Choke seems to offer an entirely parallell mana denial route to that of the pox decks. Sideboard space is better used to compensate for weak areas in the deck's defenses/offenses.

[Qweerios]

Is it me just being delusional or would this deck benefit from a blue splash for Treasure Cruise, and perhaps even Brainstorm and/or Daze? I can't think of a better way to fuel a TC than with cheap discard spells, Smallpox, and Liliana. TC is also a great way to stay on top of your opponent and to never let him recover.

[OmniStrata]

TC is also a great way to stay on top of your opponent and to never let him recover.

Liliana of the Veil is a great way to stay on top of your opponent and to never let him recover. :tongue: Pox is too busy forcing top deck mode to be wasting a card/turn drawing cards. If you're going to delve, kill something with it (Murderous cut) or you kill your opponent REALLY FAST (Tombstalker).

Why make your deck vulnerable to most of the format's sideboard (anti-blue) when you can just let the Queen of Planeswalkers do her thing? :cool:

[Qweerios]

Liliana of the Veil is a great way to stay on top of your opponent and to never let him recover. :tongue: Pox is too busy forcing top deck mode to be wasting a card/turn drawing cards. If you're going to delve, kill something with it (Murderous cut) or you kill your opponent REALLY FAST (Tombstalker).

Why make your deck vulnerable to most of the format's sideboard (anti-blue) when you can just let the Queen of Planeswalkers do her thing? :cool:

So if I get this right, if Treasure Cruise was black, you still wouldn't play it because Pox doesn't have time to spend one mana to draw 3 cards. If Pox is really good at putting both players in topdeck mode, I guess drawing 3 cards is a poor way of getting ahead.

Also, your opponents would have to be pretty bad to bring in Pyroblasts against a Pox deck only because of Treasure Cruise.

Why play Goyf in a RUG Delver deck when you can just let Delver do his thing, right?

To be honest, I would rather read a story about the relationship between Underground Seas and your mortgage than this crap.

[Blastoderm]

I was also thinking about Treasure Cruise in pox. Your graveyard seems to be huge when playing this deck. Maybe Stifle would be a good fit as well?

As of now, Pox is pretty terrible as a deck due to it feeding treasure cruise and dig through time (I mean more terrible than before). However, it does have potential if it stopped being recognized as a budget option. Add 2-3 Tabernacle, Treasure Cruise, Stifle or maybe a couple Loams / Tops to add consistency and you've got yourself a better deck.

There's no reason to restrict yourself to one color in this deck. This thread would be better off if it wasn't saturated with people who can only afford 20 swamps.

[Scott]

Is it me just being delusional or would this deck benefit from a blue splash for Treasure Cruise, and perhaps even Brainstorm and/or Daze? I can't think of a better way to fuel a TC than with cheap discard spells, Smallpox, and Liliana. TC is also a great way to stay on top of your opponent and to never let him recover.

The list below got 8th (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15231&iddeck=113061) in a November SCG Invitational Qualifier in Monroeville, PA. I searched for something like it a week or two ago after a guy at my LGS said he'd been playing Pox with Cruise and that the card was nuts in it. I don't know if his blue splash was just for Cruise.

// Sorceries
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Treasure Cruise
2 Innocent Blood

// Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Stifle

// Planeswalkers
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Creatures
4 Snapcaster Mage

// Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Watery Grave
3 Swamp
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Underground Sea
1 Rishadan Port

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Bitterblossom
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Treasure Cruise

[OmniStrata]

So if I get this right, if Treasure Cruise was black, you still wouldn't play it because Pox doesn't have time to spend one mana to draw 3 cards. If Pox is really good at putting both players in topdeck mode, I guess drawing 3 cards is a poor way of getting ahead.

Also, your opponents would have to be pretty bad to bring in Pyroblasts against a Pox deck only because of Treasure Cruise.

Why play Goyf in a RUG Delver deck when you can just let Delver do his thing, right?

To be honest, I would rather read a story about the relationship between Underground Seas and your mortgage than this crap.

If treasure cruise is the only blue card in the deck, that's kind of odd to splash for it. Just run say, Phyrexian Arena? Yes, if TC was black, I still wouldn't play it. If properly designed, your opponent could draw 50 cards and you'd be ok, not that it's possible if you're disrupting hard enough.

Yes, opponents would be bad to bring in Pyroblasts to stop only Treasure Cruise. But if you're only splashing JUST for Treasure Cruise, is 3 cards going to save you from their now useful Wastelands and Stifles? You're running fetchlands now I assume if you're splashing. I'd run more than just 1 off color card if I splash, but that's just me.

RUG Delver has Tarmogoyf as a default card. Pox does not have Treasure Cruise as a default card. You must be easily amused if you'd rather read about my mortgage. :laugh:

Bottom line: I've veered away from the original "Pox" commandments in the past. "If a card doesn't disrupt my opponent, add mana, or deal damage, it shouldn't be included in Pox decks". I've splashed Green for Life from the Loam and tried White with Lingering Souls and Vindicates. Mono Black has always done better. I ran Crucible in the past as well, but I've abandoned it.

The 'if we can't beat 'em, join 'em' attitude is something I think is a bad idea. And the crap I've posted has been proven. Treasure Cruise has not been. And I don't think it ever will be due to the nature of the deck. If you're going to put faith in a splash, I'd say go Green. It's proven tested, and still testing.

Scott's post looks like a hybrid 'Tempo Thresh Pox' as it's using standard blue control cards mixed in with Black. Jace, Lili, Sinkhole, Daze, Stifle? Mana Denial blue. Brainstorms? Team America Pox? :confused: I respect that build, but the weakness to Graveyard hate is something I'd rather not have. Remember everyone, to recover from a Smallpox, you have to Brainstorm 3 times. Treasure Cruise? Well, if you draw exactly a 1 cmc creature, a land to cast said creature, and a spell. Let's not assume 1 tournament victory is the be all end all ok?

[OmniStrata]

I was also thinking about Treasure Cruise in pox. Your graveyard seems to be huge when playing this deck. Maybe Stifle would be a good fit as well?

As of now, Pox is pretty terrible as a deck due to it feeding treasure cruise and dig through time (I mean more terrible than before). However, it does have potential if it stopped being recognized as a budget option. Add 2-3 Tabernacle, Treasure Cruise, Stifle or maybe a couple Loams / Tops to add consistency and you've got yourself a better deck.

There's no reason to restrict yourself to one color in this deck. This thread would be better off if it wasn't saturated with people who can only afford 20 swamps.

With Daze, Stifle, Sinkhole, and Smallpox, you have yourself a solid Mana Denial base. The problem with splashing is a shakier mana base. I'll never say it's wrong to splash Pox. Wait, I'll say it's wrong to splash Pox, but not Smallpox decks. (BBB won't work and neither would dark ritual in a splash deck).

I will say it's wrong to be counter productive. We should not focus on recovering from our own disruption. That's what Pox/Smallpox is. We should be able to function under said disruption. Mono-B can't be budget if you're running Sinkholes, Wastelands, Liliana's, and Chains of Mephistopheles and Nether Voids etc. Granted, it's cheaper than 3 color decks, but to say it's budget just because it's mono color isn't fair to people who do shell out the cash for dem $200 pieces of black mana cardboard.

Stifle + Sinkhole makes sense. Brainstorm + Smallpox doesn't make sense. Smallpox + Daze sounds backwards as well since you're popping your own land, and THEN setting yourself back again. Liliana + Jace are the most at odds couple I've seen.

I think it'd be better card advantage wise to simply drop Smallpox and just make it UB control. Then you get to keep your own creatures, keep all your cards in hand, and amass a TON of land.

[disgustipated]

With Daze, Stifle, Sinkhole, and Smallpox, you have yourself a solid Mana Denial base. The problem with splashing is a shakier mana base. I'll never say it's wrong to splash Pox. Wait, I'll say it's wrong to splash Pox, but not Smallpox decks. (BBB won't work and neither would dark ritual in a splash deck).

I will say it's wrong to be counter productive. We should not focus on recovering from our own disruption. That's what Pox/Smallpox is. We should be able to function under said disruption. Mono-B can't be budget if you're running Sinkholes, Wastelands, Liliana's, and Chains of Mephistopheles and Nether Voids etc. Granted, it's cheaper than 3 color decks, but to say it's budget just because it's mono color isn't fair to people who do shell out the cash for dem $200 pieces of black mana cardboard.

Stifle + Sinkhole makes sense. Brainstorm + Smallpox doesn't make sense. Smallpox + Daze sounds backwards as well since you're popping your own land, and THEN setting yourself back again. Liliana + Jace are the most at odds couple I've seen.

I think it'd be better card advantage wise to simply drop Smallpox and just make it UB control. Then you get to keep your own creatures, keep all your cards in hand, and amass a TON of land.

This BUG control list (standstill) is the closest thing I've found to blue splash Pox. Looks fun.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8314&d=247812&f=LE

[TheYoungster]

I don't understand why people are talking about treasure cruise being the worst card for Pox. A lot of the time pox doesn't care about you drawing 3 cards if you already have an answer to the cards their drawing (cursed scroll, cabal pit, liliana, etc). The reasons that pox has trouble right now is the fact the young pyromancer is a card and miracles is a deck. If you're in mono black then there isn't really a good way to answer counterbalance, which is a big problem. You have plenty of ways to kill a pyromancer and its buddies but you don't always draw it or they have an answer to it. That's one of the big reasons I like the green splash, it gives you an answer to counterbalance, a lategame draw engine to help you out muscle decks and just punishing greedy manabases.

[BTY]

I was also thinking about Treasure Cruise in pox. Your graveyard seems to be huge when playing this deck. Maybe Stifle would be a good fit as well?

As of now, Pox is pretty terrible as a deck due to it feeding treasure cruise and dig through time (I mean more terrible than before). However, it does have potential if it stopped being recognized as a budget option. Add 2-3 Tabernacle, Treasure Cruise, Stifle or maybe a couple Loams / Tops to add consistency and you've got yourself a better deck.

There's no reason to restrict yourself to one color in this deck. This thread would be better off if it wasn't saturated with people who can only afford 20 swamps.

There are a couple things in this post I want to touch on.

Firstly the problem with pox has never really been them drawing cards, they draw cards every turn, it's something that you have to prepare for. I know that sounds obvious and condescending but the point is it doesn't matter what they are drawing a lot of the time because you already have answers to it (cursed scroll, liliana, factory, etc). Treasure cruise and Dig through time actually help pox a lot more than they hurt it because because of those two cards Jace, the Mind Sculptor is seeing a lot less play, which has always been the best card against us when it is cast. A lot of the cruise decks run fragile creatures that are easy to answer, though there is young pyromancer which is its own problem I will touch on later. We can answer a lot of the cards the cruise decks draw into just based on the fact that Pox is built the way it is. Dig Through Time out of combo is the only thing that frightens me since one dig can undo everything we tried to do and gives them the chance to untap and kill you, but that is what sideboards are for since we were always weak to combo.

On Young Pyromancer, this is the worst card for the deck to play against, this card is a nightmare. Edicts almost never kill it, it has a pretty easy mana cost, and a lot of the times cursed scroll is too slow unless you're really lucky. We have ways to deal with it but not nearly as much ways of effectively killing it as something like Delver or TNN. Swiftspear is also a problem since sometimes they can do enough damage and just burn you out of the game, it gets worse the later the game goes against us, Nether Spirit doesn't care how big it gets, but early it is worse than delver for us.

Now onto a blue splash. The main weaknesses of Mono Black Pox is Miracles (sensei's divining top is great against us and we cannot interact very well with counterbalance) and a flood of creatures, which is why Young Pyromancer is a big problem. What does the blue splash solve that we don't have in black? Black already has plenty of playable sweepers and blue doesn't give us the ability to kill enchantments or artifacts while also giving us worse mana. We get stifle but what do we really want to stifle? All I can think of are fetchlands. A lot of planeswalker abilities don't matter (opposing Liliana's [with the exception of the ultimate]) or don't solve the problem (JTMS, Elspeth Knight Errant, etc). I don't know about you but that sounds like a very narrow card to me, so I can't think of a reason that stifle is something that we want to splash for. Do we want Treasure Cruise? I don't know, drawing 3 cards for 1 mana is great and all but we aren't a blue deck so just jamming it into the deck could be a terrible idea. If you want to splash for a color that then I suggest green. Green gives you Life from the Loam to generate card advantage while also solving some of the decks problems because of cards like abrupt decay to deal with pretty much all of the permanents we care about. Loam also gives us a better mana denial plan in recurring wastelands.

I don't want to seem like I am just resisting change and just shooting down innovation blindly but when we already have a splash that not only improves mana denial, kills permanents we have a hard time interacting with AND generates card advantage then I just don't see the point of a blue splash that just gives us a mediocre card (stifle) that polarizes being on the play vs. draw even more and does nothing for us when the opponent isn't cracking fetchlands or doesn't have them at the time. This isn't a RUG Delver deck where stifle is actually a reasonable answer to cards they care about (and even then some decks cut it because sometimes it just doesn't do enough) and we have a lot less use for the card than RUG. If you are just splashing blue for card draw than I suggest that you rethink your approach since there is more to this game than just drawing cards. All in all I don't think that splashing blue for cruise really has any merits because we already have a card draw engine in another color while also solving other problems, which is the main reason why I think the BG loam pox is the way to go, at least right now.

P.S. Sorry this is long winded, I just had a lot to say and I'm sorry if this sounds condescending or insulting. I'm not trying to come across that way but I just wanted to state the various reasons why (in theory) that the blue splash just for a card like treasure cruise and stifle seems suspect, to me at least.

[OmniStrata]

There are a couple things in this post I want to touch on.

"Lots of well written text".

Um, you don't sound insulting to me at least. I like how you justify the Green Splash. I ran it but I failed with it. Doesn't mean I'm going to say it's terrible but I respect those who can pull it off since I have problems doing so.

I actually don't have issues with Young Pyromancer since I'm a Night of Souls' advocate. But that idea about Miracles being REALLY hard for us is totally true. My outs involve Pithing all over his Top and then Plague Boiler or even Culling Scales. I no longer run Ratchet Bomb due to people Pithing all over it. At first, I used to think stopping my sideboard card with a sideboard card was being foolish, but when they know I have no other out, it's pretty good planning. 3 cmc is harsh, but the 'blow up everything' benefit is great. :laugh:

My magic coach gave me a starting idea with a Blue Splash for Pox including Stifle and Zombie Infestation with Ancestral Vision. Shadow of Doubt was Gold. Stifle and Shadow really hurt multi colored mana bases and combo decks. Unfortunately, I found myself top decking non-disruption and that kind of screwed me over :( This was a long time ago before Liliana but it was worth a shot.

[disgustipated]

Um, you don't sound insulting to me at least. I like how you justify the Green Splash. I ran it but I failed with it. Doesn't mean I'm going to say it's terrible but I respect those who can pull it off since I have problems doing so.

I actually don't have issues with Young Pyromancer since I'm a Night of Souls' advocate. But that idea about Miracles being REALLY hard for us is totally true. My outs involve Pithing all over his Top and then Plague Boiler or even Culling Scales. I no longer run Ratchet Bomb due to people Pithing all over it. At first, I used to think stopping my sideboard card with a sideboard card was being foolish, but when they know I have no other out, it's pretty good planning. 3 cmc is harsh, but the 'blow up everything' benefit is great. :laugh:

My magic coach gave me a starting idea with a Blue Splash for Pox including Stifle and Zombie Infestation with Ancestral Vision. Shadow of Doubt was Gold. Stifle and Shadow really hurt multi colored mana bases and combo decks. Unfortunately, I found myself top decking non-disruption and that kind of screwed me over :( This was a long time ago before Liliana but it was worth a shot.

Has anyone considered integrating Counterbalance Top with Pox? Seems like it could be good since Pox often wants/has an empty hand.

[apple713]

Has anyone considered integrating Counterbalance Top with Pox? Seems like it could be good since Pox often wants/has an empty hand.

trying to produce :u::u: in a deck that sometimes has trouble producing :b::b: is going to be an issue...

[disgustipated]

trying to produce :u::u: in a deck that sometimes has trouble producing :b::b: is going to be an issue...

Run more Sunken Ruins ;-)

[Blastoderm]

There are a couple things in this post I want to touch on.

....

Which is exactly why I'm playing GB pox and having success. I'm just saying limiting yourself to one color is pointless.

[OmniStrata]

Which is exactly why I'm playing GB pox and having success. I'm just saying limiting yourself to one color is pointless.

There are multiple advantages to running only one color which also includes a slightly lower price tag. The deck by design nukes its own land so being mono-color is good under that scenario. I run 1-2 Pox so BBB is not going to work well in splash. You also lose Dark Ritual in a splash color. You become susceptible to Wasteland lock and Ghost Quarter Lock when you run out of basics. Golgari Pox is also very very weak to GY hate. Once that Loam engine is gone due to Extirpate or what have you, your combat ability goes down hard.

The advantage you have for adding that color are more outs vs. artifacts and enchantments. By strengthening your GY use, you get more mileage out of your discards since now all your lands in the yard are technically in your hand (woot loam). You also get access to Goyf as a win-con and Tempting Wurm if you can discard them fast enough.

Saying we who choose the Mono-B route are pointless is just ignorance. :tongue: You must be in a meta where Wasteland and Stifles don't exist. Damn I wish I had it that good. :cry: *cries bitter tears*

[BTY]

@Omnitstrata: Like I said there are plenty of playable answers to Young Pyromancer, right now in my mono black build I'm running a 1/1 split of NoSB and Toxic deluge, mainly because I don't see much UR delver when I play but I have been bouncing around from 3-4 Engineered plague in the board to help with the match up. The main problem I see with a blue splash for card draw is even if we are casting ancestral recall, we still have a lot more land in our deck than others (I believe the only ones that have more are 12 post and life from the loam variants) and we have cards like hymn to tourach and other discard spells, and just generally more air than other decks so drawing 3 is worse than it is for other decks. This is the main reason I think a deck like pox wants card selection over pure card advantage. We already have a lot of card advantage in the core of the deck so I find it hard to justify wanting to play more. I'd probably rather have sensei's divining top with fetches than something like cruise strictly because we really don't need to draw 3 cards a lot of the time because we already do a good job of 2-for-1'ing the opponent with the cards that we unanimously want to play in Pox anyway.

Now that might sound counter intuitive with me advocating Loam Pox but Loam gives the deck another angle of attack so to speak and opens up new angles that the mono black version previously didn't have. It does this at a cost, being reliant on the graveyard and having a slightly worse mana base, but in this meta I think it is a better choice because of cards like abrupt decay and tabernacle seems pretty good in this meta, and wasteland is seeing less and less play because of UR Delver and UWR Stoneblade pretty much absorbing all the non miracles blue decks. I think once miracles becomes less popular the reasons for the green splash diminish but as of now I think it is the way to go.

@ Blastoderm: I am in no way meaning to say that the mono black version is strictly worse or better. What I was trying to say is that you need to be careful about what you splash into the deck because it already has a solid base to work with and adding too much can just lead to you getting too fancy. I used the green splash as an example strictly because it solves a big problem for the deck in 3 cmc or less non creature/non land permanents while also giving you a way to draw into more answers/mana denial etc. I don't think abandoning the mono black version is a good idea, though I do feel loam pox is the way to go based on the meta right now, but things can easily change. For example if the meta shifts back to BGx midrange decks like summer of 2013 then Mono Black is just fine in that meta and I think the benefits of Loam pox are actually out weighed by the drawbacks (using graveyard, worse mana) but with miracles still being one of the big players in the metagame then you have to take a good look at the mono black version and think what you are gaining against the field to warrant giving up game against miracles by playing mono black.

@ Omnistrata again: Those are the exact reasons why I think that you have to take a long look at what you want to splash and more importantly why you are wanting to splash. Loam Pox isn't just strictly better but it does have its advantages, mainly abrupt decay or other sideboard cards and different things like worm harvest or raven's crime.

Right now I think that loam pox is the way to go just because miracles is still pretty popular, though I think its popularity is waning so Mono black could be the way to go. I personally play mono black the most just because I love the elegance of it but I have played Loam Pox in the past. There is a definite trade off and every knows that. It shouldn't be a question of "which version is better?" but the question should be "which one is better in the given meta game?" or "is it time to just go back to the basics and stop getting too fancy?" Right now I think the answers to those questions favor Loam Pox but that could easily shift if things begin to change.

[OmniStrata]

Just got my friend sets of Entreat the Angels and Terminus for X-mas. Now I'll try testing my current decklist against Miracles, UR Delver, Madness (lol oldschool), and Mono-U Counterbalance. Currently my mono-B Pox is undefeated against Combo (non-dredge) and Tribal. Got to overcome these control deck hurdles.

The Madness deck is just for kicks. :laugh:

[draugr]

Hey folks, I've been brewing and came up with this list. I'll be honest, haven't had time to test this list yet, but it has a certain aesthetic to it I can dig:

[28 Sorceries and Instants]
4 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Inquisition
4 Innocent Blood
4 Dark Ritual

[2 Creatures]
2 Nether Spirit

[5 Artifacts]
3 Cursed Scroll
2 Trinisphere (Nether Void)

[25 Lands]
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Dust Bowl
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
15 Swamp

[Sideboard]
4 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
2 Ensnaring Bridge (The Abyss)
2 Powder Keg
2 Dystopia
2 Sphere of Resistance

The most glaring thing missing in this list is a source of permanent discard, Liliana of the Veil/Bottomless Pit. As I was thinking up this list, I honestly didn't feel Liliana required inclusion. Curious, how wrong am I? Do you folks see this list working out? I'll have some time on Tuesday to test on Cockatrice, but until then, opinions?

Take care,
Draugr.

EDIT: A few additional points of discussion I'd like to bring up:
1. Is Ensnaring Bridge the appropriate budget replacement for The Abyss
2. Are the Sphere of Resistances in my SB sound? The intention for SoR is for Affinity and Storm decks. The interaction between Trinisphere and SoR isn't too synergistic, but it's no non-bo either.

[Hardcore]

1.Yes

2. Yes

[coricho]

If your meta is infested with UR Delver, Death and taxes or lots of x/1 Creatures, Night of Souls' Betrayal maindeck is a great lock

I like the 4 Pox and 4 Smallpox configuration in Rack build mostly.
The game then become a race and Rack takes care of the opponent while
you disrupt him with spells.

In prison Pox you need engines that stick on the board, thing that do repeatable things like Cursed scroll, Liliana.
+ thing that put pressure on the opponent like 3sphere, Void, NoSB, crubible, e plague.

[OmniStrata]

EDIT: A few additional points of discussion I'd like to bring up:
1. Is Ensnaring Bridge the appropriate budget replacement for The Abyss
2. Are the Sphere of Resistances in my SB sound? The intention for SoR is for Affinity and Storm decks. The interaction between Trinisphere and SoR isn't too synergistic, but it's no non-bo either.

1. Ensnaring Bridge is >>> The Abyss. Bridge stops Show and Tell to some degree and turns off Sneak Attack and any horde deck, even Dredge. The Abyss works against control decks that only play 1 creature most of the time. It's not a replacement for the Abyss, it's better.

2. I'm going to main deck SoR for a way to get around Miracles. When a player is immune to targeting (Leyline of Sanctity), Permanent field destruction suddenly looks more appealing. I'll be working on it now and will be rebuilding my deck from the ground up.

What's more, the original reason I made Pox was to make a viable land destruction deck in Legacy. Now with this new 'problem' (lucky top decks), I think I've found it. Time to build... :cool:

[zebhillard]

My local gaming store had a playset of Sinkholes for a fairly reasonable price, and I had been looking into a deck to play in the Legacy format, so I made the splurge and picked them up along side some Liliana's, Smallpox's, and a few other staples to go with the other cards I already had in my rather small reestablished collection (Hymns, Rituals, Racks, and Factories). While I don't have Wastelands yet, I'm definitely looking into getting back into Pox since it's been 15 years since I sleeved up the BBB power. There's a Legacy Local here this weekend, so hopefully I'll be able to get the random few other cards I need put together and have some news for you fine folks come the new week.

[OmniStrata]

Fought Miracles a few times, it's probably without a doubt the most difficult match for this deck. What's REALLY nasty I noticed is that Leyline of Sanctity turns off most of the deck. :cry: However, not only did that deck demand a lot of mana, my Night of Souls' Betrayal and Engineered Plagues hurt, a lot... A new deck is in order!

Objective: Imprison their mana base and tax them to the point where they can't play anything they top deck. Utilize more spells that don't target players

Mana [17]
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 Snow-covered Swamp
1 Cabal Pit

Frost Engine [flex 2]
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Scrying Sheets

Discard [8]
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

Mana Denial [10]
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Sinkhole
1 Rancid Earth

Pox FX [13] - THAT'S RIGHT THIRTEEN!!
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
1 Pox
4 Sphere of Resistance - This is truly a double edged Sinkhole that violates combo decks.

Singles [4]
1 Murderous Cut
1 Smokestack
1 Engineered Plague
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal

Win Conditions [6]
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nether Spirit

Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
2 Plague Boiler
3 Engineered Plague
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Extirpate
3 Relic of Progenitus

As you can see, I mostly just replaced Hymn with Sphere of Resistance. I was going to squeeze in Rancid Earths as Sinkhole 5-8 but a 5th Sinkhole is enough. Sphere demands more lands be run that behave like spells hence the Cabal Pit & Ghost Quarter additions.

The Frost Engine as you can see do not have to be there since they're Flexy cards. :laugh: They go against my Pox 'covenant' lol but it was just an idea from a long time ago. Adding more lands with abilities or perhaps even dredgers like Necroplasm can go here as well.

UPDATE! This is the current list. After some Control testing (vs. Counterbalance Miracles ugh :frown:) the updates are unusual. The lack of Hymn felt strange to say the least but emptying his hand still occurs due to Liliana. :eek:

[draugr]

My local gaming store had a playset of Sinkholes for a fairly reasonable price, and I had been looking into a deck to play in the Legacy format, so I made the splurge and picked them up along side some Liliana's, Smallpox's, and a few other staples to go with the other cards I already had in my rather small reestablished collection (Hymns, Rituals, Racks, and Factories). While I don't have Wastelands yet, I'm definitely looking into getting back into Pox since it's been 15 years since I sleeved up the BBB power. There's a Legacy Local here this weekend, so hopefully I'll be able to get the random few other cards I need put together and have some news for you fine folks come the new week.

Hey Zeb,

I'm glad you got back into a Pox-groove! I'm somewhat suprised Dust Bowl isn't mentioned more often as a substitute for Wasteland, not even budget replacement, I mean as a viable alternative! Pox is notorious for it's poor topdecks mid-late game. Why not turn all top-deck lands into a non-basic only Rain of Tears?

Maybe you can use Dust Bowl until you get enough funds for Wasteland. Who knows, maybe you'll like Dust Bowl even more.


1. Ensnaring Bridge is >>> The Abyss. Bridge stops Show and Tell to some degree and turns off Sneak Attack and any horde deck, even Dredge. The Abyss works against control decks that only play 1 creature most of the time. It's not a replacement for the Abyss, it's better.

2. I'm going to main deck SoR for a way to get around Miracles. When a player is immune to targeting (Leyline of Sanctity), Permanent field destruction suddenly looks more appealing. I'll be working on it now and will be rebuilding my deck from the ground up.

What's more, the original reason I made Pox was to make a viable land destruction deck in Legacy. Now with this new 'problem' (lucky top decks), I think I've found it. Time to build... :cool:

Hey Omni,

Curious to get your opinon on my lack of Liliana. Do you think her inclusion absolutely necessary in a LD strategy?

Also, with regard to the list you posted above: Think -1 NoSB (or Engineered Plague) -1 Smokestack +2 Withering Whisps would be good? I'm not sure if you have the infrastructure to support Smokestack :o

Take care,
Draugr.

[OmniStrata]

Hey Omni,

Curious to get your opinon on my lack of Liliana. Do you think her inclusion absolutely necessary in a LD strategy?

Also, with regard to the list you posted above: Think -1 NoSB (or Engineered Plague) -1 Smokestack +2 Withering Whisps would be good? I'm not sure if you have the infrastructure to support Smokestack :o

Take care,
Draugr.

Liliana's still great in that her ultimate can cut down on lands, her +1 is always card advantage and she can kill creatures with protection. The fact that she doesn't nuke lands fast doesn't make her any weaker. It's not that she's absolutely necessary in a LD strategy, she's absolutely necessary in Pox period. If you go anti-hand, anti-creature, or anti-land, she'll help with all 3.

I used to run Withering Wisps build in the past. That was my Ice Queen Liliana Pox, but once I got Cursed Scroll, the restrictions of the wisps and my tendency to kill myself with it have been lowered. It's still good, but with Engineered Plague and NoSB, the Wisps won't have anything to kill.

2 Nether Spirits let me get Smokestack running and at worst, I can just sack the Stack. Another idea that comes to mind is Culling Scales, but that won't hit most Leylines which screw me up. Still moving cards around. Will have more later this week.

[draugr]

Liliana's still great in that her ultimate can cut down on lands, her +1 is always card advantage and she can kill creatures with protection. The fact that she doesn't nuke lands fast doesn't make her any weaker. It's not that she's absolutely necessary in a LD strategy, she's absolutely necessary in Pox period. If you go anti-hand, anti-creature, or anti-land, she'll help with all 3.

I used to run Withering Wisps build in the past. That was my Ice Queen Liliana Pox, but once I got Cursed Scroll, the restrictions of the wisps and my tendency to kill myself with it have been lowered. It's still good, but with Engineered Plague and NoSB, the Wisps won't have anything to kill.

2 Nether Spirits let me get Smokestack running and at worst, I can just sack the Stack. Another idea that comes to mind is Culling Scales, but that won't hit most Leylines which screw me up. Still moving cards around. Will have more later this week.

I'm running Dystopia in the SB for Leyeline of Sanctity and other probelm enchantments (which tend to be green or white). Honestly never had a chance to board it in, but it always seemed like it could work. *Shrug*

[zebhillard]

Hey Zeb,

I'm glad you got back into a Pox-groove! I'm somewhat suprised Dust Bowl isn't mentioned more often as a substitute for Wasteland, not even budget replacement, I mean as a viable alternative! Pox is notorious for it's poor topdecks mid-late game. Why not turn all top-deck lands into a non-basic only Rain of Tears?

Maybe you can use Dust Bowl until you get enough funds for Wasteland. Who knows, maybe you'll like Dust Bowl even more.

I was considering Ghost Quarter, since most Legacy lists I have gone over only run 3 or 4 basic land, if that. If they don't start off well, I'll be moving to a Dust Bowl build to bide time (if keeping four land in play turns out to not be an issue. )

Edit: This is what I'm currently planning on sleeving up. I know I have several obvious slot exclusions (Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth for one), but I'm just starting to put all the pieces back together. Thanks for any input!

[29 Sorceries and Instants]
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition
3 Pox
1 Black Sun’s Zenith
1 Duress
1 Extirpate

[1 Creatures]
1 Nether Spirit

[4 Planeswalkers]
4 Liliana of the Veil

[4 Artifacts / Alt Win Conditions]
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Haunted Plate Mail
1 Powder Keg

[22 Lands]
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Ghost Quarter
16 Swamp

SB
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pithing Needle
2 Powder Keg

[Hardcore]

Leyline have never been more than a nuisance, but then i don't run cursed scroll.

[zebhillard]

I like the idea of four independent win conditions, just in case of Pithing Needle/Null Rod overload. With a minimal creature build, is there anything else you would suggest?

[OmniStrata]

SB
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pithing Needle
2 Powder Keg

You should add a 5th GY hate like Relic of Progenitus or Nihil Spellbomb. Should your foe inevitably destroy a Leyline, you need a way to kill whatever would make it's way into your enemy's GY till your next Leyline can hit. What I mentioned cantrips and so are my favorite GY hate #5.

Lots of cards have weird abilities that occur after they land in the yard. Leyline is the ultimate GY hater and we must not give any GY decks mercy. :mad:

[Hardcore]

How good is plague boiler? Is just realised it is not color dependent and can be run in mono B.

[zebhillard]

How good is plague boiler? Is just realised it is not color dependent and can be run in mono B.

If it was "You may remove all counters" I think it would be fair, but not solid. As it is, you're waiting thee turns after you play it to kill everything. I'm sure there's better ways.

Part of me wants to run a single Liliana Vess to tutor with, for the slog of midgame in case no win solutions happen to make themselves apparent. But, 5cmc and the fact that she replaces a better Liliana makes me horribly hesitant.

[OmniStrata]

How good is plague boiler? Is just realised it is not color dependent and can be run in mono B.

People are looking at this thing at the wrong context. First it nukes everything and works in mono-color and it can't be pithed on like Ratchet bomb or Powder Keg and even Pernicious Deed. What's more, it's not CMC dependent like Engineered Explosives.

"But it takes too long to go off" exclaims the ignorant people who'd recommend Pernicious Deed in a mono color deck. You are Pox and if you're dealing with Artifacts and Enchantments like Leylines or Counterbalance or what have you, the power to clear the entire board for 3 mana in 3 turns which can't be pithing needled is superior.

If you're looking for a way to kill many creatures at once, Drown in Sorrow, Mutilate, or Infest or Toxic Deluge to your heart's content. The Plague is designed to deal with things you normally can't deal with, not creature swarms. Your main deck should already be prepared to handle creatures in any case.

As for it's effectiveness, I found it superior to the Ratchet Bomb, Powder Keg, and even the old school Nevinyyral's Disk. Of course, it can be killed by Abrupt Decay, but so can everything else in Legacy really. Pithing Needle? psh yeah right. Don't use it to kill enemy pithing needles, but things like Batterskull and Swords of X&Y are great.

[OmniStrata]

If it was "You may remove all counters" I think it would be fair, but not solid. As it is, you're waiting thee turns after you play it to kill everything. I'm sure there's better ways.

Give me a hand then cause I can't find anything that generates this much card advantage for the cost and is unstoppable short of Stifle. Don't ask me to splash for Abrupt Decay cause I need to clear the field with a single card and be immune / resistant to needles, stifles, and wastelands

[kravkenov]

Hi folks, what do you think about Adachi Ryousuke list who made 2nd over 140 players on 07.12.2014 :


//Instant [5]
1 Empty the Pits
4 Dark Ritual
//Sorcery [18]
1 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
1 Beseech the Queen
4 Sinkhole
4 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize
//Artifact [3]
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Crucible of Worlds
//Enchantment [3]
1 The Abyss
2 Nether Void
//Land [27]
9 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Spawning Pool
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Rishadan Port
1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Planeswalker [4]
4 Liliana of the Veil


//Sideboard
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Smokestack
1 Zuran Orb
1 Underworld Dreams
1 Engineered Plague
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Bitterblossom

I personally really like all the Legends inside :)

[OmniStrata]

Time to buy me a Spawning Pool (I had my suspicions but this new LD list is amazing. Crucible Waste-lock ftw!) Empty the Pits now has my attention, I need to delve harder. The one-of Hymn feels strange though. Double Nether Voids... :cry: Instead of using Crucible, I'll probably be using more Tax fx. (Sphere of Resistance) and a one-of Ghost Quarter.

[kravkenov]

Only one Hymn to Tourach feels also strange to me I will rather play a second Beseech the Queen instead of the single Hymn to Tourach. Trinisphere can be a soft remplacement in case of lack of Neider Void. I just ordered a couple of The Abyss for my next tournament (february 2015), but I dont know yet if I will stay with my Land control deck, or if I will give a try to Pox. But with my new Abyss on the road, I will probably want to play with it ;)

[draugr]

Hey folks,

I was curious to see what type of mana base is required to be able to have three black mana after two draws. Meaning being able to cast a BBB spell (Pox), on a third land drop. I decided to write a script to run simulations of opening hands + 2 additional draws. The method used is to first count the number of swamps in the opening hand, then Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Each Urborg is counted once, as the card is legendary. Next, if there was an Urborg in hand, I then count the number of non-basic lands as black mana producers. After the initial 7, I draw a card, and evaluate that card. Note that if the initial hand had no Urborg, and the first drawn card is an Urborg, then previous non-basics in the opening hand are NOT retroactively counted as black mana producers, since a player couldn't have known that information from an initial draw of cards.

With that said, here are some numbers for 23, 24, and 25 lands. The horizontal values increase with number of Urborg, the vertical values increase with the number of non-basics. The remainder cards are taken to be swamps. Note that this is NOT initial 7 draw, but rather the expected black mana for initial draw + 2 additional draws. Excuse the shitty formatting of the tables.

23 Lands
0 1 2 3 4
0 3.450 3.450 3.428 3.386 3.341
1 3.304 3.318 3.310 3.284 3.234
2 3.144 3.184 3.195 3.178 3.157
3 2.998 3.053 3.077 3.076 3.058
4 2.849 2.915 2.954 2.969 2.964
5 2.698 2.775 2.829 2.861 2.867
6 2.549 2.650 2.715 2.757 2.772
7 2.402 2.514 2.598 2.657 2.684
8 2.246 2.385 2.477 2.541 2.581

24 Lands
0 1 2 3 4
0 3.606 3.600 3.580 3.537 3.488
1 3.457 3.468 3.458 3.436 3.399
2 3.299 3.332 3.352 3.329 3.298
3 3.150 3.192 3.219 3.222 3.209
4 2.996 3.070 3.111 3.121 3.114
5 2.850 2.935 2.979 3.011 3.016
6 2.698 2.800 2.867 2.909 2.928
7 2.553 2.668 2.749 2.808 2.832
8 2.398 2.532 2.630 2.687 2.738

25 Lands
0 1 2 3 4
0 3.750 3.749 3.723 3.690 3.632
1 3.604 3.617 3.608 3.586 3.547
2 3.455 3.470 3.497 3.481 3.455
3 3.307 3.344 3.365 3.375 3.355
4 3.145 3.210 3.252 3.266 3.260
5 2.999 3.082 3.137 3.170 3.168
6 2.852 2.951 3.014 3.054 3.069
7 2.702 2.812 2.890 2.949 2.978
8 2.543 2.680 2.771 2.837 2.872

Each trial consisted of 100,000 "games".

Hope you folks get something out of this. I learned that I'll probably stick with 17 swamps, 3 Urborg, and 5 nonbasics, if I want to run 3 Pox :-)

Take care,
Draugr.

[Hardcore]

Useful. Thanks!

[kravkenov]

Yes, thank you Draugr !

[draugr]

No worries! Let me know if you folks are curious about any manabase scenarios, land counts, or want to see just opening hands. The script is written in python. If anyone wants it, I don't mind sharing. I can spend some time later and make it more user friendly.

Also, note that I wasn't sure how to model Dark Ritual, so I left that out. If you have other suggestions to how I modeled Urborg, feel free to share. It's reassuring to see that the expected black mana decreases with running too many Urborgs and not enough non-basics to get value out of them.

[Hardcore]

I wonder if presenting result to only three decimals would reduce the utility? Otherwise it would make for less clutter.

[draugr]

I wonder if presenting result to only three decimals would reduce the utility? Otherwise it would make for less clutter.

Edited post :-)

[Hardcore]

Very nice! :smile:

[Hardcore]

So, 23 lands, running four mishras should work well with just two urborg? Or 3/1.

[Chatto]

Hey folks,

I was curious to see what type of mana base is required to be able to have three black mana after two draws.

(...)

Each trial consisted of 100,000 "games".

Hope you folks get something out of this. I learned that I'll probably stick with 17 swamps, 3 Urborg, and 5 nonbasics, if I want to run 3 Pox :-)

Take care,
Draugr.

Thanks for this information, Draugr. One remark; I probably play a wooping number of 10-12 nonbasics, being a mix of Tabernacle, Wasteland, Urborg and Mishra's. In Bg Pox that total even increases. What are your 5 nonbasics?

[draugr]

Thanks for this information, Draugr. One remark; I probably play a wooping number of 10-12 nonbasics, being a mix of Tabernacle, Wasteland, Urborg and Mishra's. In Bg Pox that total even increases. What are your 5 nonbasics?

Oops, I should have used a better word than non-basic. I meant colorless/no mana producing land when I was saying "non-basic". That chart should be read as...

If you are considering 24 lands table, the 7 "non-basic" and 3 Urborg cell would correspond to a manabase like:
14 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth

The five colorless producing lands I run are 2 Dust Bowl and 3 Mishra's Factory, alongside 3 Urborgs.

[Hardcore]

Iron Maiden look nice in deck that utilise 3sphere, chalice AMD nethervoid.

[Hardcore]

No good black cards in Fate Reforged set, yet. It seems all colors get their own mechanic, but the black one, delve, sucks big time.

[OmniStrata]

No good black cards in Fate Reforged set, yet. It seems all colors get their own mechanic, but the black one, delve, sucks big time.

So they're just recycling Delve? bummer. :really:

On the other hand, to incorporate Spawning Pool means I may have to ditch Night of Soul's Betrayal, or I just treat it as just another 'swamp' that CIPT. I suppose it's a Mishra's Factory that never dies. :laugh: On the other hand, I've now incorporated a single Crucible and stuffed in a Cabal Pit to deal with creatures that my Cursed Scroll may not be able to hit due to say a Pithing Needle or Leyline of Sanctity. Since I like creatures, I'm not going to get a Tabernacle, though Smokestack I find to be just as good as The Abyss if I can hammer down their lands.

[OmniStrata]

Iron Maiden look nice in deck that utilise 3sphere, chalice AMD nethervoid.

One of the older posts in the thread mentioned getting killed by a hard LD deck using Sinkhole, Wasteland, Smallpox, Pox, Blight and/or Rancid Earths. I think for sheer speed, only Chalice and Sphere of Resistance can 'jam' the opponent's hand quick enough for the Iron Maiden to do her violating. Trinisphere and Nethervoid seem like they'd take too long or demand a Dark Ritual in opening hand.

Now if there was a way to punish them for playing lands, say, Ankh of Mishra, then the hand would be clogged quite badly. The problem is consistently doing it. What's worse, Liliana can't be in a deck with the Iron Maiden since they'd hate each other. :laugh:

[beez]

I have added a couple of Trinisphere maindeck for extra ball crushing but paradoxically have dropped the Sinkholes for now. With Daze and Treasure Cruise it has been harder to get a lot of value out of it as a one for one. The addition of a couple of Trinispheres has been great - I don't want tax my Lillianas and other 3cc spells any more so I have accepted a bit of slower drop than Sphere of Resistance or make my Loams cost 5 with Nether Void. Of course Sinkhole works great with Trinisphere, but honestly if Trinisphere resolves against those same decks it is pretty crippling on its own.
I've upped it to 4 Loams so I can Smallpox with near impunity earlier, and assure a quick recovery from a token bounce or exile. If they have more than one land out they can't Daze their way out of Smallpox as easily as Sinkhole. A Ghost Quarter in the board can help mitigate the loss of Sinkholes by being a Wish target when the only thing keeping you from comboing into Marit Lage is an open basic Plains.
My current bit of spiciness is the Nightmare Void, which can be pitched to Liliana and Smallpox and sometimes Loamed into which is pretty cool. The main purpose is to be assured of clearing the way for a Marit Lage activation.
Treasure Cruise and Young Pyromancer are still a pain in my ass but I'm still doing well with this.

Chalice Loam Pox Depths



1 The Abyss
2 Trinisphere
2 Sylvan Library

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish
4 Smallpox
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Nightmare Void


4 Wasteland
3 Dark Depths
3 Thespian's Stage
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Urborg,Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Side
1 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Cabal Pit
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Necroplasm
1 Reclaimation Sage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Plague
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal

[Hardcore]

Black get some new useful dudes in the new set. The Mardu Shadowspear is nice. The Mardu Strike Leader and Brutal Hordechief are good too, but may cost to much to cast. Still, the strikeleader and packrats in the same deck would be awesome.

[Chatto]

Just when SCG stops with Legacy-coverage (why!?!?!?), Mono Black Pox (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78242) goes top10...

Really would like to see this deck in action! Anyway, congrats, mister Kurtis Frazier!

[zenitramleirdag]

Just when SCG stops with Legacy-coverage (why!?!?!?), Mono Black Pox (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78242) goes top10...

Really would like to see this deck in action! Anyway, congrats, mister Kurtis Frazier!

kurtis?! i see that father pox strikes again! you can almost guess his thought processes looking at that list..i'm sure those 3 spinning darkness is for the tc delver/burn decks..he probably figured treasure cruise makes hymn ineffective so he removed them in lieu of the chains, i can't help but feel amazed knowing he owns 3, just wow..
i personally think this list is meta'ed for treasure cruise decks..

[P-E]

what happened to chains's price ? :eek:

happy to see pox top16
i'm trying the version of the japanese guy that finished 2nd on 100+ it's funny

[zenitramleirdag]

what happened to chains's price ? :eek:

happy to see pox top16
i'm trying the version of the japanese guy that finished 2nd on 100+ it's funny

noticed that too, it sure has sky rocketed..again, i think its because of the ubiquity of treasure cruise..its the most efficient answer to every blue deck in legacy..

[zenitramleirdag]

what happened to chains's price ? :eek:

happy to see pox top16
i'm trying the version of the japanese guy that finished 2nd on 100+ it's funny

Adachi Ryousuke, 2nd/140, Eternal Party on 7 dec. 2014,

Spells:
1 Empty the Pits
4 Dark Ritual
1 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
1 Beseech the Queen
4 Sinkhole
4 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Crucible of Worlds

1 The Abyss
2 Nether Void
4 Liliana of the Veil

Land:
9 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Spawning Pool
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Rishadan Port
1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard:
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Smokestack
1 Zuran Orb
1 Underworld Dreams
1 Engineered Plague
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Bitterblossom

[Chatto]

noticed that too, it sure has sky rocketed..again, i think its because of the ubiquity of treasure cruise..its the most efficient answer to every blue deck in legacy..

That, and probably also because it's a pretty rare card... Being a 20+ years old card, from Legends...

[slylie]

Iron Maiden look nice in deck that utilise 3sphere, chalice AMD nethervoid.


I would much rather play Underworld Dreams than Iron Maiden. Making them take 3 damage for every brainstorm, treasure cruise, plus damage from their cantrips sounds good. I've seen some european pox lists running it.

[Chatto]

I would much rather play Underworld Dreams than Iron Maiden. Making them take 3 damage for every brainstorm, treasure cruise, plus damage from their cantrips sounds good. I've seen some european pox lists running it.

I was thinking about that card, Underworld Dreams, as well. Ok, it's a bit harder to cast and a bit slower than Chains, but it does damage! So it's a wincon on it's own. It might be too slow tho.

[zenitramleirdag]

I would much rather play Underworld Dreams than Iron Maiden. Making them take 3 damage for every brainstorm, treasure cruise, plus damage from their cantrips sounds good. I've seen some european pox lists running it.

i used to prefer racks over underworld dreams but now that treasure cruise is everywhere, i think the meta would favor dreams over the doll(rack) in pox..i think its also worth taking note that the damage caused by underworld dreams can also be redirected to an opposing planeswalker..

[OmniStrata]

i used to prefer racks over underworld dreams but now that treasure cruise is everywhere, i think the meta would favor dreams over the doll(rack) in pox..i think its also worth taking note that the damage caused by underworld dreams can also be redirected to an opposing planeswalker..

It is this 'ancestral recall' that has caused me to drop the almighty Hymn for more land kill. Sinkhole, Crucible, Ghost Quarter, Big Pox, Wasteland and Rancid Earth come to mind. Yay waste locking. I'd rather not use Rishadan Port as it doesn't quite 'destroy' mana.

Anyone else know of efficient LD to clog the Treasure Cruisers? If only Rancid Earth wasn't so pricey mana wise lol. :laugh: I don't want to splash for Vindicate. Losing Dark Ritual is not an option for me.

[zenitramleirdag]

It is this 'ancestral recall' that has caused me to drop the almighty Hymn for more land kill. Sinkhole, Crucible, Ghost Quarter, Big Pox, Wasteland and Rancid Earth come to mind. Yay waste locking. I'd rather not use Rishadan Port as it doesn't quite 'destroy' mana.

Anyone else know of efficient LD to clog the Treasure Cruisers? If only Rancid Earth wasn't so pricey mana wise lol. :laugh: I don't want to splash for Vindicate. Losing Dark Ritual is not an option for me.

in casual games, i had fun using misinformation and desolation against them:cool:..desolation renders our scrolls ineffective though:frown:..

[P-E]

Never thought about the redirected damage of dreams.to walkers good catch so maybe i ll play one dreams one chains in side.
at least dreams isn t too much expensive ahah

[OmniStrata]

in casual games, i had fun using misinformation and desolation against them:cool:..desolation renders our scrolls ineffective though:frown:..

Desolation may be just the excuse I need to bring back Chimeric Idol! [lolz] I forget that I got copies of misinformation lying about and it will time walk your opponent for 3 turns if you land nuke hard enough. I also forgot it was instant and can be used to stuff Dredge when they try to dread return a target. :eek:

[zenitramleirdag]

seems like this treasure cruise-scare has subsided..i almost panicked when i thought that that card will totally push pox out of the picture..it is actually good to have it around since it keeps miracles in check, an arguably tougher match-up for us..treasure cruise delver decks are also easier to hate out with cards like night of soul's betrayal, spinning darkness, etc..

i encourage everyone on this thread to play more tourneys with pox..we need more results..

[zenitramleirdag]

treasure cruise just got the banner, seems like in the end it was too good for its own good..it actually made me a little worried wondering what decks would re-surge post banning.."miracles" comes to mind..

[Chatto]

Elves, Rug, Bug, Shardless, Jund... Jup, it's going to be fun-times!

[OmniStrata]

treasure cruise just got the banner, seems like in the end it was too good for its own good..it actually made me a little worried wondering what decks would re-surge post banning.."miracles" comes to mind..

Whoa. Suddenly I have the urge to return Hymn to Tourach and chuck Crucible/Waste-locking options from the deck. This is good news. :laugh:

[Charon666]

I'm going to play in a small tourney on Sunday.
Here is my current list: Any suggestions, especially for the sideboard? I don't really know what kind of meta I have to expect.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/senseis-divining-pox/

Land (25)
2x Cabal Pit
4x Marsh Flats
4x Mishra's Factory
6x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Enchantment (2)
1x Nether Void
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal

Creature (1)
1x Nether Spirit

Sorcery (21)
1x Beseech the Queen
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox

Artifact (6)
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Sensei's Divining Top

Instant (1)
1x Empty the Pits

Planeswalker (4)
4x Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
3x Duress
3x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Extirpate
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Spinning Darkness
2x Toxic Deluge

[zenitramleirdag]

Whoa. Suddenly I have the urge to return Hymn to Tourach and chuck Crucible/Waste-locking options from the deck. This is good news. :laugh:

what made you suddenly wanting to run crucible of worlds? i was under the impression that you didn't like it that much since it doesn't make much of an impact the first time you plop it down..just curious since we are running an almost similar list..

[hpl324]

-1Beseech the Queen for a cruel tutor is a better choice for me

[zenitramleirdag]

-1Beseech the Queen for a cruel tutor is a better choice for me

hmm, why do you think so? as someone who used to run a singleton infernal tutor i'm just curious to hear your assesment because i'm toying with the idea that it might actually be better..

[Charon666]

I can see why hpl324 would say, Cruel Tutor is better.
Its because of mana and Liliana.
Tutor costs 3 (or 2 if you run Infernal Tutor), the cards you most likely will tutor cost 3 or 4. That makes it impossible to play both tutor and the card you searched, in the same turn (mostly)
If you have Lili out, you can't +1 that turn (except if you searched for a gy card)
At least, that are the reasons I think, why Cruel Tutor would be better.
I should grab one when I can :D

[OmniStrata]

what made you suddenly wanting to run crucible of worlds? i was under the impression that you didn't like it that much since it doesn't make much of an impact the first time you plop it down..just curious since we are running an almost similar list..

Wastelocking an enemy who is drawing cards faster than you will clog their hand. Players can cast multiple spells in a turn, but by the rules, you can only play one land a turn. A single of crucible gives a late game lock and can drain a deck of land in 3-5 turns through Ghost Quarter/Wasteland spam. Most decks I've fought have very few basics so 4 turns of G. Quarter is enough to stuff them rest of the game.

When Pox goes dedicated LD, Crucible recurrsion is key. Hymn actually loses in that case since it overlaps with Sinkhole and for about 2 months I had a Pox deck with more Land toys and crucible and no Hymn, it felt weird, but using lands for spells gets you under the CounterBalance and only stifle can slow you down a bit.

I've grown fond of Maze of Ith. :eek:

Update - Instead of Nether Void/Trinisphere, I'll just keep a single Crucible. 2 Cabal Pit, 1 Ghost Quarter, 4 Wasteland, and 4 Mishra's Factory become quite devastating and can mana-lock/creature lock an opponent out of the game more efficiently than Nether Void. Mishra's becomes Nether Spirit so to speak. I could probably replace Cursed Scroll with something that has more punch if Cabal Pit can carry the weight. I'm starting to have games where I think the Scroll becomes pointless due to no Liliana on field/pithing needled.

[beez]

Update - Instead of Nether Void/Trinisphere, I'll just keep a single Crucible. 2 Cabal Pit, 1 Ghost Quarter, 4 Wasteland, and 4 Mishra's Factory become quite devastating and can mana-lock/creature lock an opponent out of the game more efficiently than Nether Void. Mishra's becomes Nether Spirit so to speak. I could probably replace Cursed Scroll with something that has more punch if Cabal Pit can carry the weight. I'm starting to have games where I think the Scroll becomes pointless due to no Liliana on field/pithing needled.

I like this move a lot. Maybe a second Ghost Quarter to make sure you get it, can always use it for Smallpox/Lilly fodder. 2 Cursed Scrolls would be fine for this build.

[Hardcore]

Once it was possible to run 4 wasteland and 4 stripmine. Why not do that again?

[zenitramleirdag]

Once it was possible to run 4 wasteland and 4 stripmine. Why not do that again?

what do you mean?

you're aware strip mine is banned right?

or are you suggesting running a 4-of of both wasteland and ghost quarter?

[Hardcore]

Yeah. I realised only today why 4+4 was so good back then. The number of real lands in many decks is very small. When delver and blade runs like six dual lands and two basic then eight LD lands + plus pox effects would be brutal.

I am thinking crucible may be countered, destroy or slow to cast because of mana cost. That's why i was thinking eight cards. It is not much more cards than a crucible+GQ, WL package after all.
(BTW, IF running crucible then it would make sense to switch the ratio of GQ and WL in the list above.)

Also, we got URBORG today😸

[Hardcore]

Something like this

4 Bloodghast
4 bloodsoaked champion
2 nether spirit

4 gitaxian probe
4 cabal therapy
4 smallpox
4 Pox

3 liliana of the veil

4 chalice of the void
4 chrome mox

3 wasteland (i only got three ATM)
4 ghost quarter

1 dakmor salvage
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
13 swamp

[zenitramleirdag]

Something like this

4 Bloodghast
4 bloodsoaked champion
2 nether spirit

4 gitaxian probe
4 cabal therapy
4 smallpox
4 Pox

3 liliana of the veil

4 chalice of the void
4 chrome mox

3 wasteland (i only got three ATM)
4 ghost quarter

1 dakmor salvage
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
13 swamp


i like the idea of running at least 2 ghost quarters together with the 4 wastelands for a more LD build, this is one avenue i wouldn't mind venturing in.. i'm not sure if i'd run 4 GQ's though..

the rest of your list seems too fringe for me to understand which direction you're trying to bring the deck to..

can you explain your thought processes involved in your card selection? namely the gitaxian probe, chrome mox, and the lack of innocent bloods?

[Chatto]

Personally, I would go with Rack Pox... I tried it before, but then TC came...

[zenitramleirdag]

Personally, I would go with Rack Pox... I tried it before, but then TC came...

go ahead chatto, its the best time to give it a shot now that treasure cruise is no more..i also think it has good game against popular decks in the format..
unfortunately, my modern 8rack deck got stolen last month, he he he..too bad, i could've ported it in legacy.. :laugh:

[Hardcore]

Maybe i am too focused on early game. Probe/Cabal Therapy is a good information/disruption package which i can play using a chrome mox only, leaving my 'one land a turn' drop for LD.

Chrome mox is quite all right. The casting cost is far more affordable than Mox Diamond. It give only one mana vs that of Dark Ritual. Also, as they stay in play they can replace lands in the list on a one-for-one basis.

The list is just a draft. I will have creature kill somewhere, but probably not IB.
I need something that is not bothered by Chalice of Void.

[Captain Hammer]

Almost every single competitive deck in the format plays atleast a handful of basic lands.

The few that don't likely will now that Treasure Cruise got the boot and thus Wasteland makes a resurgance.

Ghost Quarter seems like a bad idea because of this.

[hovercraft]

Almost every single competitive deck in the format plays atleast a handful of basic lands.

The few that don't likely will now that Treasure Cruise got the boot and thus Wasteland makes a resurgance.

Ghost Quarter seems like a bad idea because of this.

I just run 2x Sinkhole for extra/Basic land destruction

[OmniStrata]

Yeah. I realised only today why 4+4 was so good back then. The number of real lands in many decks is very small. When delver and blade runs like six dual lands and two basic then eight LD lands + plus pox effects would be brutal.

I am thinking crucible may be countered, destroy or slow to cast because of mana cost. That's why i was thinking eight cards. It is not much more cards than a crucible+GQ, WL package after all.
(BTW, IF running crucible then it would make sense to switch the ratio of GQ and WL in the list above.)

Also, we got URBORG today��

The problem with GQ is that you are at card disadvantage when you use it if your enemy has at least 4 basics in deck. It is hilarious to use against a deck that attempts to hide cards from a hymn to Tourach using Brainstorm. Counterbalance Decks can get screwed up if you GQ them in the middle of a trigger, though it depends on how much mana they have at the time. Crucible won't be countered if your enemy is in top deck mode due to countering your 16 other spells that 'must be countered'.

By including Crucible, I'll need more 'spell lands'. I've squeezed in Maze of Ith and Ghost Quarter and Cabal Pit into my current build. Hymn is back and my land count has dropped back to my 'usual' 24. Went from 2 Nether Spirit to 1 pre TC ban to 2 again. :eyebrow:

The Singleton crucible still gives me the freedom to ignore enemy graveyard hate. It's just an option, not a core method to this Pox flavor. Older lists I remember run 2-3 crucibles.

[zenitramleirdag]

I just run 2x Sinkhole for extra/Basic land destruction

are you on mono black hovercraft? i can justify 3 sinkholes but 3 seems amiss to me..can you explain your numbers?

[Hardcore]

Omni, tnx for that info! I had completely missed that use for GQ. Sounds like I have some fun times to look forward too! 😸

[hovercraft]

are you on mono black hovercraft? i can justify 3 sinkholes but 3 seems amiss to me..can you explain your numbers?

I'm on B/g loam pox. Not sure what your question is asking since you said 3 both times. Right now I have 3 hymn, 2 sinkhole and 2 smallpox at BB I believe

[zenitramleirdag]

I'm on B/g loam pox. Not sure what your question is asking since you said 3 both times. Right now I have 3 hymn, 2 sinkhole and 2 smallpox at BB I believe

are you on mono black hovercraft? i can justify 3 sinkholes but 2 seems amiss to me..can you explain your numbers?
and only 2 smallpox?


-there, fixed that..sorry, i was too tired to realize that i typed it wrong..
haven't tried the green splash..so i'm a bit green about splashing green(no pun intended).. :laugh:

[Charon666]

I played a 67 player tournanemt on sunday. Went 15th place with 4-1-2.
This is the list I ended up playing:

Land
1x Cabal Pit
4x Marsh Flats
4x Mishra's Factory
6x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Enchantment
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal

Planeswalker
4x Liliana of the Veil

Sorcery
3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
Artifact
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Cursed Scroll
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Creature
1x Nether Spirit

Instant
4x Dark Ritual
1x Empty the Pits

Sideboard
1x Duress
1x Hymn to Tourach
3x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Extirpate
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Spinning Darkness
2x Toxic Deluge
1x Trinisphere

I did not play Nether Void, as I didn't want to borrow one, and I could not get my hands on a Haunted Plate Mail before the tourney.
Ended up playing 4 Rituals and 24 lands instead of 3 Rituals and 25 lands, just because ^^ Couldn't say it made much of a difference.
Playing Rituals felt good, and I will keep them in my deck for a while again.

Round 1
Sneak & Show 1-1-1
Game 1: I manage to disrupt quite a bit, but he then Show and Tells Grieselbrand, draws 14 cards going down to 4, plays some mana and passes. I cant deal 4 damage but I can kill Grieselbrand.I put him at 2 life and have to pass. He drops Sneak Attack, and attacks for lethal with another Grieselbrand and Emrakul.

-1 NoSB, -1 Crusible, -3 SDT
+3 Ensnaring Bridge, +1 Duress, +1 Hymn to Tourach

Game 2: I have all the disruption I need and can put my opponent into top deck mode, without anything usefull on the board. And then I take ages to find a wincon and beat him.

Game 3: I know I cant win this anymore, because its not enough time, so I just mulligan to a save hand that can stall the game out. Show and Tell into Ensnaring Bridge is enough to not lose.

Round 2:
UWr Miracle 1-2
I know this deck quite well, as it is played by a good friend of mine. I hate playing against him (but he's not very happy about playing against me either). He ended up 2nd place.
Game 1: I manage to lock him out of having more than 3 lands in play. Most of the time he was on 2 lands. Factory beatdown does the rest. Sinkhole is amazing in this matchup, and small poxing a board with no creatures, if you know he has few lands, seems worth it (at least it worked for me in this game)

+1 Duress, +1 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Trinishpere (+1 NoSB, cant remember if I did this or not. He plays Snapcaster and Vendillion, so I might have boarded it in)
-3 (4) Innocent Blood

Game 2: He gets an early Countertop online, and I am mana screwed. I concede in order to have enough time for game 3.

Game 3: I can't disrupt him as much as I did game 1, but manage to keep his lands at 3. He has a Counterbalance in play, that shows me an Entreat the Angels. In his turn he casts Entreat for X=1. That lone Angel token kills me as I cant resolve any removal. I think he found a Top in addition to the Balance too while the Angel was beating me.

0 - 1 - 1 so far... not looking good.

Round 3:
UG Enchantress Pile 2-0
I know this deck a little. The guy playing it is from my local playgroup. It's a strange list, using Cloud of Faries and Seal of Removal in order to untap his lands. I have no idea how his deck is supposed to win ^^; But I know he doesnt win against me.

Game 1:
Discard and Sinkhole rip him appart. Just playing Pox by the book.

-1 Crucible, -2 SDT, +1 Duress, +1 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Trinisphere

Game 2:
Much the same as game 1. He had quite a strong hand, and could have started comboing turn 2, but IoK took his Enchantress.

2 - 0

Standing 1 - 1 - 1 now. Maybe I can still climb the ranks :D

Round 4:
UB ToporNought 2-0

Game 1: He starts his turn with USea into Gitaxian Probe. I put him on a combo deck. I have no 1cc discard, so I have to hope he doesnt combo turn 2. He doesnt, just plays a cantrip. My turn 2 I start casting small poxes, in order to keep him from going off. He is still just casting cantrips. After my 2nd Smallpox he discarded a Phyrexian Dreadnought, leaving me a bit confused. On his turn he then casts Topor Orb, and I finally get his deck. An IoK shows me a Daze and Spell Pierce in addition to more fatties. I know I have to get a Liliana out, in order to not be overwhelmed. Next turn he casts Dig through Time and Dreadnought, leaving him with no mana. Because of this mistake I can Dark Ritual my Liliana through his Daze, kill his Dreadnought, and win the game on the back of Lili.

Game 2:
+3 Ensnaring Bridge, -3 SDT
He lands an early Nought, I can kill it. I think he FoW'd my first Liliana, and he manages to go into top deck mode much faster than I do. Pox does its thing, and I win. Having Ensnaring Bridge in play was a nice bonus :D

Round 5:
Maverik & Taxes.. or Death & Maverik, dunno :D 1-1-1

Game 1: This was an exausting game. I could disrupt him early on, but he could get some damage through. I had NoSB in hand, but couldnt play it, becaus he had a Qasali Pridemage. I managed to get rid of it, and of all his lands, going down to 2 in the process. NoSB gave me some freedom (and my opponent some headache, as he threw 3 creatures into it everytime forgetting, they have -1/-1). I had Liliana in play, and felt quite save, but he found an Aether Vile that eventually led to me loosing.

+1 NoSB, +2 Spinning Darkness, +2 Toxic Deluge, -4 Dark Ritual, -1 X (I guess SDT or Crucible, cant remember)

Game 2: As exausting as game 1, but I cant remember much of this game. Smallpoxes and Sinkholes did much work, and Factories finished it.

Game 3: We had 3 Minutes left. I knew I would not win this, but neither could my opponent. Extra turns started turn 3. Nothing much happened. My opponent tried to get a win via Knight of the Reliquary + Dark Depth/Tespian Stage combo, but he didnt have the time.

Standing 2 - 1 - 2 now.

Round 6: RUG Delver 2-0
Game 1: On the play I keep an explosive hand, and start with Swamp, Dark Ritual, Liliana. He FoW's. He drops a Volcanic and passes. I play Wasteland, kill his Volcanic. He floats U, I go to combat in order to empty his pool. Second mainphase I Dark Ritual my Crucible. He looks unhappy. Wasteland/Crucible lock win the game.

+2 Spinning Darkness, +1 NoSB, -3 SDT
Game 2: He plays it save, just dropping lands and keeping his creatures in hand. Also he had a Pithing Needle in play, naming Liliana. When he finally had two creatues to play, I happened to have a Spinning Darkness, to deal with both of his creatures. Spinning Darkness his delver, so he has to sacrifice his Nimble Mongoose to Smallpox. He looks unhappy again. After I drop NoSB, he concedes.

3 - 1 - 2

Round 7: RIP/Helm Miracle 2-1
Game 1: Another Miracle list.. I hate it. I do what I can to disrupt him. He drops an early RiP, following up with Counterbalance and Top. I concede, in order to win game 2+3 in time.

+1 Trinisphere, +1 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Duress, -1 Empty the Pits, -1 Crucible, -1 Dark Ritual

Game 2: Sinkhole and Wasteland do amazing work, and keep him from doing much. He plays Pithing Needle naming Wasteland. I guess he was afraid of Crucible, because I already played 2 Wastelands. Naming Liliana or Mishras Factory would have been the better play. I get Liliana into play, and I can use her -6 two times, before I finally managed to kill him with Factories.

Game 3: He plays land + pass. I 1cc discard him, he brainstorms in response and shows me a hand with 6 lands.. *sigh* Unfortunally he never really drew anything else but lands. I attacked him with two factories. He managed to StP one of them, but the other finished the job.

Standing 4 - 1 - 2 resulting in 15th place of 67.
I'm quite happy with my result. If I had managed to get a win out of one the draws, I might even have gotten a price ^^
I really want to try Haunted Plate Mail instead of Empty the Pits, and I guess I'll use a 1 of Trinisphere main deck until I can get a Nether Void.
Senseis Divining Top is amazing in grindy matchups, but gets boarded out in a lot of matches where I dont need to prepare for late game, because my opponents dont have one.
Ensnaring Bridge did a lot for me. I got them a few days before the tournament, and this was the first time I played with them. Putting an Ensnaring Bridge into play with my opponents Show and Tell feels very satisfying :D

[hovercraft]

are you on mono black hovercraft? i can justify 3 sinkholes but 2 seems amiss to me..can you explain your numbers?
and only 2 smallpox?


-there, fixed that..sorry, i was too tired to realize that i typed it wrong..
haven't tried the green splash..so i'm a bit green about splashing green(no pun intended).. :laugh:

My List deviates a bit from a traditional Pox plan. I use Dark Depths as a win con with Living Wish and Loam to assemble it. I am also playing Mox Diamond and Chalice of the Void to get that Chalice on 1. Because of this I don't play any 1 drops myself. Exact numbers I am constantly tinkering with, but I actually only own 2 Sinkhole. I was kinda looking at Sinkhole/Smallpox as 4 cards in the same spot. I am open to any suggestions or comments though :)

1 Barren Moor
3 Bayou
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
4 Mox Diamond

2 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

2 Sinkhole
2 Smallpox
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Beast Within
1 Powder Keg
1 Toxic Deluge

3 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard:
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
1 Sphere of Resistance

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dark Depths
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Maze of Ith
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Tombstalker
1 Vampire Hexmage

[OmniStrata]

My List deviates a bit from a traditional Pox plan. I use Dark Depths as a win con with Living Wish and Loam to assemble it. I am also playing Mox Diamond and Chalice of the Void to get that Chalice on 1. Because of this I don't play any 1 drops myself. Exact numbers I am constantly tinkering with, but I actually only own 2 Sinkhole. I was kinda looking at Sinkhole/Smallpox as 4 cards in the same spot. I am open to any suggestions or comments though :)

CARDINAL SIN! :eek: YOU never say Sinkhole and Smallpox can be in the same spot! :mad: BB to kill a land or BB to kill a Land, creature, and Hand... omg! BB S.Pox also says screw your fetchland :laugh:

Seriously though, if you only have space for it, go 4 Smallpox, don't worry about the Sinkhole. :cool:

[zenitramleirdag]

Seriously though, if you only have space for it, go 4 Smallpox, don't worry about the Sinkhole. :cool:

same thing as what i have in mind..

[hovercraft]

CARDINAL SIN! :eek: YOU never say Sinkhole and Smallpox can be in the same spot! :mad: BB to kill a land or BB to kill a Land, creature, and Hand... omg! BB S.Pox also says screw your fetchland :laugh:

Seriously though, if you only have space for it, go 4 Smallpox, don't worry about the Sinkhole. :cool:

The main reason I haven't gone 4 smallpox is that I can't cast it after I make a ML token, but I guess that should usually end the game anyway

[BigPhil86]

Good job man! Way to rock our pox!






I played a 67 player tournanemt on sunday. Went 15th place with 4-1-2.
This is the list I ended up playing:

Land
1x Cabal Pit
4x Marsh Flats
4x Mishra's Factory
6x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Enchantment
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal

Planeswalker
4x Liliana of the Veil

Sorcery
3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
Artifact
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Cursed Scroll
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Creature
1x Nether Spirit

Instant
4x Dark Ritual
1x Empty the Pits

Sideboard
1x Duress
1x Hymn to Tourach
3x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Extirpate
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Spinning Darkness
2x Toxic Deluge
1x Trinisphere

I did not play Nether Void, as I didn't want to borrow one, and I could not get my hands on a Haunted Plate Mail before the tourney.
Ended up playing 4 Rituals and 24 lands instead of 3 Rituals and 25 lands, just because ^^ Couldn't say it made much of a difference.
Playing Rituals felt good, and I will keep them in my deck for a while again.

Round 1
Sneak & Show 1-1-1
Game 1: I manage to disrupt quite a bit, but he then Show and Tells Grieselbrand, draws 14 cards going down to 4, plays some mana and passes. I cant deal 4 damage but I can kill Grieselbrand.I put him at 2 life and have to pass. He drops Sneak Attack, and attacks for lethal with another Grieselbrand and Emrakul.

-1 NoSB, -1 Crusible, -3 SDT
+3 Ensnaring Bridge, +1 Duress, +1 Hymn to Tourach

Game 2: I have all the disruption I need and can put my opponent into top deck mode, without anything usefull on the board. And then I take ages to find a wincon and beat him.

Game 3: I know I cant win this anymore, because its not enough time, so I just mulligan to a save hand that can stall the game out. Show and Tell into Ensnaring Bridge is enough to not lose.

Round 2:
UWr Miracle 1-2
I know this deck quite well, as it is played by a good friend of mine. I hate playing against him (but he's not very happy about playing against me either). He ended up 2nd place.
Game 1: I manage to lock him out of having more than 3 lands in play. Most of the time he was on 2 lands. Factory beatdown does the rest. Sinkhole is amazing in this matchup, and small poxing a board with no creatures, if you know he has few lands, seems worth it (at least it worked for me in this game)

+1 Duress, +1 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Trinishpere (+1 NoSB, cant remember if I did this or not. He plays Snapcaster and Vendillion, so I might have boarded it in)
-3 (4) Innocent Blood

Game 2: He gets an early Countertop online, and I am mana screwed. I concede in order to have enough time for game 3.

Game 3: I can't disrupt him as much as I did game 1, but manage to keep his lands at 3. He has a Counterbalance in play, that shows me an Entreat the Angels. In his turn he casts Entreat for X=1. That lone Angel token kills me as I cant resolve any removal. I think he found a Top in addition to the Balance too while the Angel was beating me.

0 - 1 - 1 so far... not looking good.

Round 3:
UG Enchantress Pile 2-0
I know this deck a little. The guy playing it is from my local playgroup. It's a strange list, using Cloud of Faries and Seal of Removal in order to untap his lands. I have no idea how his deck is supposed to win ^^; But I know he doesnt win against me.

Game 1:
Discard and Sinkhole rip him appart. Just playing Pox by the book.

-1 Crucible, -2 SDT, +1 Duress, +1 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Trinisphere

Game 2:
Much the same as game 1. He had quite a strong hand, and could have started comboing turn 2, but IoK took his Enchantress.

2 - 0

Standing 1 - 1 - 1 now. Maybe I can still climb the ranks :D

Round 4:
UB ToporNought 2-0

Game 1: He starts his turn with USea into Gitaxian Probe. I put him on a combo deck. I have no 1cc discard, so I have to hope he doesnt combo turn 2. He doesnt, just plays a cantrip. My turn 2 I start casting small poxes, in order to keep him from going off. He is still just casting cantrips. After my 2nd Smallpox he discarded a Phyrexian Dreadnought, leaving me a bit confused. On his turn he then casts Topor Orb, and I finally get his deck. An IoK shows me a Daze and Spell Pierce in addition to more fatties. I know I have to get a Liliana out, in order to not be overwhelmed. Next turn he casts Dig through Time and Dreadnought, leaving him with no mana. Because of this mistake I can Dark Ritual my Liliana through his Daze, kill his Dreadnought, and win the game on the back of Lili.

Game 2:
+3 Ensnaring Bridge, -3 SDT
He lands an early Nought, I can kill it. I think he FoW'd my first Liliana, and he manages to go into top deck mode much faster than I do. Pox does its thing, and I win. Having Ensnaring Bridge in play was a nice bonus :D

Round 5:
Maverik & Taxes.. or Death & Maverik, dunno :D 1-1-1

Game 1: This was an exausting game. I could disrupt him early on, but he could get some damage through. I had NoSB in hand, but couldnt play it, becaus he had a Qasali Pridemage. I managed to get rid of it, and of all his lands, going down to 2 in the process. NoSB gave me some freedom (and my opponent some headache, as he threw 3 creatures into it everytime forgetting, they have -1/-1). I had Liliana in play, and felt quite save, but he found an Aether Vile that eventually led to me loosing.

+1 NoSB, +2 Spinning Darkness, +2 Toxic Deluge, -4 Dark Ritual, -1 X (I guess SDT or Crucible, cant remember)

Game 2: As exausting as game 1, but I cant remember much of this game. Smallpoxes and Sinkholes did much work, and Factories finished it.

Game 3: We had 3 Minutes left. I knew I would not win this, but neither could my opponent. Extra turns started turn 3. Nothing much happened. My opponent tried to get a win via Knight of the Reliquary + Dark Depth/Tespian Stage combo, but he didnt have the time.

Standing 2 - 1 - 2 now.

Round 6: RUG Delver 2-0
Game 1: On the play I keep an explosive hand, and start with Swamp, Dark Ritual, Liliana. He FoW's. He drops a Volcanic and passes. I play Wasteland, kill his Volcanic. He floats U, I go to combat in order to empty his pool. Second mainphase I Dark Ritual my Crucible. He looks unhappy. Wasteland/Crucible lock win the game.

+2 Spinning Darkness, +1 NoSB, -3 SDT
Game 2: He plays it save, just dropping lands and keeping his creatures in hand. Also he had a Pithing Needle in play, naming Liliana. When he finally had two creatues to play, I happened to have a Spinning Darkness, to deal with both of his creatures. Spinning Darkness his delver, so he has to sacrifice his Nimble Mongoose to Smallpox. He looks unhappy again. After I drop NoSB, he concedes.

3 - 1 - 2

Round 7: RIP/Helm Miracle 2-1
Game 1: Another Miracle list.. I hate it. I do what I can to disrupt him. He drops an early RiP, following up with Counterbalance and Top. I concede, in order to win game 2+3 in time.

+1 Trinisphere, +1 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Duress, -1 Empty the Pits, -1 Crucible, -1 Dark Ritual

Game 2: Sinkhole and Wasteland do amazing work, and keep him from doing much. He plays Pithing Needle naming Wasteland. I guess he was afraid of Crucible, because I already played 2 Wastelands. Naming Liliana or Mishras Factory would have been the better play. I get Liliana into play, and I can use her -6 two times, before I finally managed to kill him with Factories.

Game 3: He plays land + pass. I 1cc discard him, he brainstorms in response and shows me a hand with 6 lands.. *sigh* Unfortunally he never really drew anything else but lands. I attacked him with two factories. He managed to StP one of them, but the other finished the job.

Standing 4 - 1 - 2 resulting in 15th place of 67.
I'm quite happy with my result. If I had managed to get a win out of one the draws, I might even have gotten a price ^^
I really want to try Haunted Plate Mail instead of Empty the Pits, and I guess I'll use a 1 of Trinisphere main deck until I can get a Nether Void.
Senseis Divining Top is amazing in grindy matchups, but gets boarded out in a lot of matches where I dont need to prepare for late game, because my opponents dont have one.
Ensnaring Bridge did a lot for me. I got them a few days before the tournament, and this was the first time I played with them. Putting an Ensnaring Bridge into play with my opponents Show and Tell feels very satisfying :D

[Chatto]

@ Charon: nice job! Haunted Plate Mail should be ok... I've never tried it myself, but people have tested it with positive results. One question: what is Mav & Taxes?

[Charon666]

@ Charon: nice job! Haunted Plate Mail should be ok... I've never tried it myself, but people have tested it with positive results. One question: what is Mav & Taxes?

Mav & Taxes was a funny deck. The guy that played it, said he tried to combine Death and Taxes with Maverik. He played DnT stuff like Aether Vile, Thalia, Mother of Runes, but also Knight of the Reliquary, Dark Depth/Tespian Stage and Qasali Pridemage.

[jhhdk]

Round 3:
UG Enchantress Pile 2-0
I know this deck a little. The guy playing it is from my local playgroup. It's a strange list, using Cloud of Faries and Seal of Removal in order to untap his lands. I have no idea how his deck is supposed to win ^^; But I know he doesnt win against me.


He wins by forcing conceit by bouncing your board or hard casting Emry. Pox pretty bad MU for him. Enchantress engine doesn't dodge Edict effects and that makes his engine break down.

[Hardcore]

I'd like to play Bitter Ordeal..
Unlike Extirpate it can remove cards not yet n play, and pox feed the gravestorm.

[hovercraft]

I'd like to play Bitter Ordeal..
Unlike Extirpate it can remove cards not yet n play, and pox feed the gravestorm.

Definitely interesting after a Smallpox, or even a Wasteland

[Hardcore]

Fetch land, play cabal therapy, sacrifice recuring creature to flashback therapy, play wasteland, play Bitter Ordeal.

For decks like miracles it would be GG:tongue:

[beez]

That would be so funny. Hope you get it to work.

[OmniStrata]

Sideboard update:

Leyline of Sanctities getting you down? Are free brainstorms from Jace getting on your nerves? Do you feel helpless when an enemy just shuts off your best abilities and Liliana with a God darned Pithing needle? Normally sideboard is best for things like extreme combo. Either they Dredge rush you with 50 zombie tokens, you get stomped by Empty the Warrens, or they SneakShow your skull.

Control is an issue for me since they can go long games and it's hard for a Pox shell to have a 'safe' form of inevitability. TC getting banned does help. New sideboard for my meta.

2 Pithing Needle
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 The Rack
1 Underworld Dreams

If I find Liliana getting pinned by an enemy Jace backed by Pithing Needle, I may change out one Relic for Oppression/Bottomless Pit. Against control, having more 'hard to kill' win conditions seems the right call. We can't really increase our killing speed with things like Tombstalker and I can't build an effective 'Aggro' Pox. Game against combo is good, but having more ways to kill my control deck enemy seemed to work better than board nuking.

Know of any other alt-win cons that don't target players below 3 cmc? :mad: Rack is superior to Shrieking Afflictions due to the Planeswalker killing ability.

[beez]

Chimeric Idol @3. Haunted Plate Mail if you can swing 4.

[Hardcore]

Death Pulse is not bad. Could be played through a Nether Void too.

[OmniStrata]

Chimeric Idol @3. Haunted Plate Mail if you can swing 4.

I did try Haunted Platemail before but the 4 cmc hurted much. :eek: Despite that, I have Nether Spirit on the field often and equipping the spirit with the PM is pricey as well.

Idol effectively nullifies Cursed Scroll and Mishra's Factory (CS I've found is always best used on enemy's turn, but if you're Chimeric slapping him, the Scroll can't work and you burn mana on your turn making it hard to disrupt using whatever you top decked)

I think if I ran 62 cards, I could fit in the Idol, though I'm uncomfortable going above 60. OCD and all that lol.

I don't want my threat suite to drop below 8 cards. Though I really do miss that Idol. I'd probably end up having to remove Crucible and would need to carve bit of the deck from an angle to make it work. I think the reason Mishra's is one of the staples in Pox archetype is solely due to the extremely high number of disruption spells and all we have 'left to work with' is land, hence man-land threats and land-spells like Bokuja bog and Wasteland.

You think removing my 'bombs' that are Night of Souls' Betrayal and Engineered Plague maindeck would work? NoSB has pulled heavy weight in games. Best top deck in the universe I had was against a Thopter Foundry/sword of the Meek deck [laugh] that recovered and had lethal on board AND WHAM, NoSB, he scooped laughing his ass off when it hit.

http://www.mtgtwincast.com/Articles/ChrisH/PoxPrimer.html

Very old 'classic' list, but making room for Liliana is easy. I do appreciate his old school sideboard. Warning* Nostalgia rush! :laugh: He runs Mishra's and Idol... :eek:

[hovercraft]

If you really need more cheap threats, could just up the manland count? Add Mutavault maybe? I still like Tombstalker too, but I know you said you wanted something different

Phyrexian Totem is kinda like chimeric idol, but with a different drawback.

Mimic Vat as long as your opponent has creatures

[OmniStrata]

Thanks for the inputs everyone. Behold, Ancient Pox. Some pros and cons follow...

Win Conditions (8)
2 Nether Spirit
2 Chimeric Idol
1 Phyrexian Totem
3 Mishra's Factory

Pox FX (9)
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
1 Pox

Targeted Disruption (17)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter

Planeswalker (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

Utility and Nukes (3)
1 Engineered Plague
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Crucible of Worlds

Mana and Land (19)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Maze of Ith
1 Cabal Pit
9 Snow-Covered Swamp

Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
1 The Rack
1 Underworld Dreams
3 Engineered Plague
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Extirpate
3 Relic of Progenitus

Pros: Deck is Pithing Needle resistant, can cast disruption and deal damage with less lands on field. Faster clocks. Extra SB threats for Planeswalkers, draw engines, and no 'target' clauses. Maze of Ith is great for threats too big to handle otherwise.
Cons: Less recurring removal in Cabal Pit/Crucible combo instead of Cursed Scroll/Liliana combo. Threats are blockable game 1 vs. old Cursed Scroll builds which are "unblockable" so to speak. Can't attack with Mishra & Chimeric simultaneously.

At first glance, the lack of a cursed scroll could be problematic, but being able to stomp their skulls with a Phyrexian Negator instead of a miserable 2 damage is satisfying. :laugh:

[beez]

I just like Haunted Plate Mail out of those. Like Mishra's more than Idol and HPM is safe from Lightning Bolt while one of those against Totem is bad. You have to have a Swords. I know what you mean about the 4 mana though. It is a problem for Abyss, Nether Void and NoSB too. I find Diving Top is usefull here as you can keep it floating a couple cards deep in the draw and then draw and play it when you can and draw business or something you don't mind discarding. Here is my current Mono-black Pox.



Pox

1 Nether Spirit

4 Liliana of the Veil

1 The Abyss
1 Haunted Plate Mail
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Crucible of Worlds

3 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozaliek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 Pox

24 land
4 Wasteland
10 Swamp
2 Cabal Pit
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory

Side
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Pithing Needle
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
2 Engineered Plague
2 Trinisphere
4 Leyline of the Void



What was interesting when I played it last it was against a Deadguy type build and I ended the game with a Crucible of Worlds in play 5 lands and a Cabal Pit -Crucible holding off Bitterblossom tokens as they entered play and a Cursed Scroll picking away for the win. I feel like I could use a third Scroll for the occasional Abrupt Decay.

[Hardcore]

4 Bloodghast
4 gravecrawler
4 mardu shadowspear
4 bloodsoaked champion
1 filth
2 geralf's messenger
1 withered wretch
2 death's shadow

3 inquisition of kozilek
4 Pox
4 gitaxian probe
4 cabal therapy
1 buried alive
1 snuff out

2 mishra's factory
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3 wasteland
9 swamp
1 dark ritual
4 chrome mox


With the new 1cc creature, Mardu Shadowspear, i thought i should make a fast aggro deck.
Play creatures, play discard and play Pox. In that order

[AnvilOfCrom]

Hey Guys,

i´m pretty sure this has been discussed before, but since I'm new to Pox, i have to ask about Bitterblossom as a WinCon? It´s hard to remove, cmc 2 and even without Equipment, it provides us with an endless stream of faeries.

Furthermore, i´m surprised that i see so few copies of The Abyss in Pox Decks, even in Sideboards. Isn´t this a viable card for sideboards or even maindecking since it only hits our recurring Nether Spirit?

Same goes for the god ol`Nether Void. Always thought this is a must for this kind of Deck.

[BTY]

Hey Guys,

i´m pretty sure this has been discussed before, but since I'm new to Pox, i have to ask about Bitterblossom as a WinCon? It´s hard to remove, cmc 2 and even without Equipment, it provides us with an endless stream of faeries.

Furthermore, i´m surprised that i see so few copies of The Abyss in Pox Decks, even in Sideboards. Isn´t this a viable card for sideboards or even maindecking since it only hits our recurring Nether Spirit?

Same goes for the god ol`Nether Void. Always thought this is a must for this kind of Deck.

I've never tried bitter blossom but because of abrupt decay and councils judgement a lot of decks can remove it reasonably easily. The life loss is also a concern, a deck like RUG delver might just be able to burn you out before you kill them because of it.

As for the Abyss and Nether Void not seeing play, in the dark I'm going to guess it is because of price. Both are very expensive and see play in almost no other decks so I can't imagine a lot of players out there really want to fork over a collected $600 for 1 of each of those two cards.

[AnvilOfCrom]

I've never tried bitter blossom but because of abrupt decay and councils judgement a lot of decks can remove it reasonably easily. The life loss is also a concern, a deck like RUG delver might just be able to burn you out before you kill them because of it.

As for the Abyss and Nether Void not seeing play, in the dark I'm going to guess it is because of price. Both are very expensive and see play in almost no other decks so I can't imagine a lot of players out there really want to fork over a collected $600 for 1 of each of those two cards.

Thanks for the quick reply. I will test them. Especially one copy of The Abyss in the Sideboard could be worth running.

[OmniStrata]

I've never tried bitter blossom but because of abrupt decay and councils judgement a lot of decks can remove it reasonably easily. The life loss is also a concern, a deck like RUG delver might just be able to burn you out before you kill them because of it.

As for the Abyss and Nether Void not seeing play, in the dark I'm going to guess it is because of price. Both are very expensive and see play in almost no other decks so I can't imagine a lot of players out there really want to fork over a collected $600 for 1 of each of those two cards.

$ price tags should never be discussed or mentioned in this forum. That's for budget building. What matters is a card's usefulness. The problem with the Abyss is both the casting cost and it's weaker power level. Pay 4 cmc to kill one of their threats, or use NoSB to kill many if not all of their threats? Streams of creatures usually mean a bunch of 1/1s or 2/2s hitting. NoSB halves or stops all the damage. After proxy testing Nether Void, I realize that Crucible Waste-lock (and G. Quarter for basics) is actually more mana friendly and frustrating to deal with. I could run Nether Void with Crucible locking but I'm VERY tight on space as is. N. Void has no immediate effect. Crucible, if I didn't play my land that turn instantly gives me back my C. Pit or W.land and blam, more disruption.

The fact that bitter blossom can be killed by Abrupt Decay is a moot point. So can Crucible, so can Liliana, so can Cursed Scroll. So does that mean we should NEVER run cards that can be killed? Why's Tarmogoyf so damn popular? He can be killed for 2 or less mana as well. A card isn't 'unplayable' just because it can be killed or countered. It's real problem is that it puts the caster on a clock for very little return. You going to put Umezawa's Jitte for your faeries to use? When I see 1/1 swarm decks, I laugh maniacally inside. However, Pox historically has problems being an aggro-control hybrid, of which I gave up on. I don't advocate Bitterblossom, but hey, maybe you'll go further? I've tried, failed, and don't want to waste my energy on it.

I've decided on removing 'nuke everything' sideboard cards to simply dodging the problem. Player can't be targeted? Pick threats that don't care. Pithing needle me? Pithing this, fool! (plays The Rack) But they're drawing too many cards! Chains of Mephistopheles stalls, Underworld Dreams KILLS! It's quite the predicament. :cry:

[OmniStrata]

Are any of you aggro playing Poxers hyped about Tasigur, the Golden Fang? A black Legendary Tarmogoyf for 1 cmc sounds good. He may shrink enemy goyfs as well. His ability is solid for Loam Poxers I'm sure.

[Ralf]

Hello, I played against a MBC this week end.

Not sure about the entire list, but he was doing pretty well. As I met him on the last round at (we were both at 3 wins - 2 losses).

4 liliana

4 Innocent blood
4 Smallpox
4 HTT
4 TS
4 Infernal contract

4 Geth's verdict
4 Soul spike

3 Gate keeper of Malakir
3 Demigod of Revenge

14 swamp
4 Cabal Pit
2 Barren Moor
1 Urborg, Tomb of yawgmoth
1 Lake of the Dead

It is not a pure traditional pox list but don't fool yourself it was 3 games of pure attrition war.
Those infernal contract + soul spike are insane... And I died G2 on a resolved Demigod which brought back his brothers...
If anyone is interested in trying something new, I thought I should share what I saw.

[jimmythegreek]

So I imagine with the banning of treasure cruise pox is better positioned in today's meta. A while back I was successful with "eight rack" pox and I'm planning on bringing it to my lgs in the next couple weeks. Most recently I saw a lot of 12post and rwu nemesis type decks along with other random delver decks. Deck list is as follows.

Artifacts:8
The rack x 4
Ensnaring bridge x 4

Discard spells:13
Inquisition of kozilek x 4
Thoughtseize x 4
Hymn to tourach x 4
Ravens crime x 1

Pox effects:5
Small pox x 4
Pox x 1

Other stuff:12
Liliana of the veil x 4
Innocent blood x 4
Shrieking affliction x 4

Land:22
Swamp x 19
Tomb of yawg x 3
(Would like some advice on other utility lands)

Sideboard: 15
Torpor orb x 2
Chains x 1 ( I think this should be two.)
Lotv x 4
Toxic deluge x 2
Unmask x 2
Ratchet bomb x 2
Pithing needle x 2

Board is up in the air, again the meta was a lot of post and lame delver/nemesis rwu boringness. All comments are appreciated and considered, thanks!

[Bosaapje]

Why no Wastelands?

[jimmythegreek]

Why no Wastelands?

In my thinking I want the opponent to be able to play spells to lessen the cards in their hand. Pox, innocent blood type stuff should clean up the remaining mess. Also, I don't know of any non-basics that sway my game plan. Never have I really wanted wasteland when playing this deck in my experience, I may be wrong though in my philosophy though.

[Bosaapje]

In my thinking I want the opponent to be able to play spells to lessen the cards in their hand. Pox, innocent blood type stuff should clean up the remaining mess. Also, I don't know of any non-basics that sway my game plan. Never have I really wanted wasteland when playing this deck in my experience, I may be wrong though in my philosophy though.

I always saw Pox as a resource denial deck, so destroying their hand with discard and their mana base with land destruction. Running Sinkhole isn't necessary in my opinion but Wasteland + Smallpox can destroy a deck so hard, especially if you're on the play. I think it's worth it to run the Wastelands, it's not about utility land which you can destroy (which also can be nice but not the reason why you run it). You run it so that they can never carry out their game plan. Either their hand is destroyed or they can't cast anything. And it's not like the Wastelands would go into the spell spot in this deck, you can just run 13 Swamps, 4 Urborg, 4 Wasteland.

[jimmythegreek]

I always saw Pox as a resource denial deck, so destroying their hand with discard and their mana base with land destruction. Running Sinkhole isn't necessary in my opinion but Wasteland + Smallpox can destroy a deck so hard, especially if you're on the play. I think it's worth it to run the Wastelands, it's not about utility land which you can destroy (which also can be nice but not the reason why you run it). You run it so that they can never carry out their game plan. Either their hand is destroyed or they can't cast anything. And it's not like the Wastelands would go into the spell spot in this deck, you can just run 13 Swamps, 4 Urborg, 4 Wasteland.

I'll give them a try. Thanks. I'm thinking another ratchet bomb in the side might be necessary for decks packing chalice.

[Bosaapje]

I'll give them a try. Thanks. I'm thinking another ratchet bomb in the side might be necessary for decks packing chalice.

If Chalice is of frequent occurance in your meta then I would do it. It's also a solid answer against other enchantment and artifacts so it's going to be useful in other match ups as well.

[gusccs]

Have you guys tried 4 surgical extraction maindeck?

With discard and LD i think we could use it two ways: Aiming for the lands or the cards in the grave that are important for the opponent.

Against combo we can make them discard a piece of the combo and surgical it

Against control we can get rid of a card or try to disrupt the lands targeting fetchs or duals in the grave after a smallpox

Against aggro it can remove troublesome creatures after they hit the graveyard

What do you think?

[jimmythegreek]

Have you guys tried 4 surgical extraction maindeck?

With discard and LD i think we could use it two ways: Aiming for the lands or the cards in the grave that are important for the opponent.

Against combo we can make them discard a piece of the combo and surgical it

Against control we can get rid of a card or try to disrupt the lands targeting fetchs or duals in the grave after a smallpox

Against aggro it can remove troublesome creatures after they hit the graveyard

What do you think?

I believe alot of these lists to be too tight and wanting to draw pox effects or (as in my list discard spells) to warrant surgicals main. What would you remove for the extractions?

[Chatto]

I am brewing a Rack Pox list, with 2-3 Surgical Extractions main, accompanied with 7-8 discard spells. I dropped Sinkhole for obvious reasons, so it was pretty easy to incorporate. I don't have a full list to show; still in the brewing-state :smile:

[Bosaapje]

Have you guys tried 4 surgical extraction maindeck?

With discard and LD i think we could use it two ways: Aiming for the lands or the cards in the grave that are important for the opponent.

Against combo we can make them discard a piece of the combo and surgical it

Against control we can get rid of a card or try to disrupt the lands targeting fetchs or duals in the grave after a smallpox

Against aggro it can remove troublesome creatures after they hit the graveyard

What do you think?

The problem that I have with mainboard Extractions is that they do nothing against the current boardstate and they're pretty bad topdecks late game. Yeah sure, you could waste their land and extract it but I would rather have something that could destroy a thing that they casted or destroy their hand. That way they also can't do nothing with their mana, just the same way if they didn't have mana.

And of course, it could be good sometimes and I think that you'll win a few games because of the Extractions but it's just not good enough.

[OmniStrata]

The problem that I have with mainboard Extractions is that they do nothing against the current boardstate and they're pretty bad topdecks late game. Yeah sure, you could waste their land and extract it but I would rather have something that could destroy a thing that they casted or destroy their hand. That way they also can't do nothing with their mana, just the same way if they didn't have mana.

And of course, it could be good sometimes and I think that you'll win a few games because of the Extractions but it's just not good enough.

^this^

GY hate game 1 serves almost no purpose unless you live in a Dredge only meta. Or you're a Helm of Obedience deck. :laugh: Game 1 is best served controlling the board state. Game 1 against combo should be auto win for us who pack Duress/Inquisition of Kozilek and Hymn to Tourach.

Update: On second thought, an excellent way to kill their mana base and future draws would be Extirpate on their Fetchlands. 2 Extirpates would wreck 8 of their lands which could be more than half their mana base right there depending on the deck. Extirpate on their Wasted dual lands would also work forcing them to fetch basics. Last I checked, no deck runs less than four of a dual so you'd really be mana strangling them. :cool:

[beez]

My latest list. I played to 6-3 is last SCG Worchester and 7-3 at Legacy Champs, lost my last round at Legacy Champs to a friend I felt I would normally beat, would have liked to win that one for the top 16 finish. Any thoughts, comments, suggestions, or questions are welcome.

2 Bloodghast
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Life from the Loam
3 Entomb
4 Crop Rotation
4 Small Pox
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Raven's Crime
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquizition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy

1 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest

SB:
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
2 Disfigure
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Extirpate
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Chains of Mephistopheles

Have you changed your list any after Treasure Cruises banning?

[jredelstein]

Have you changed your list any after Treasure Cruises banning?

I unfortunately have not had much of a chance to play Magic lately since I am getting married next month.

That list is actually mostly from before treasure cruise, the biggest changes I made for treasure cruise/UR Delver was to add the NoSB and second Tabernacle to the sideboard.

I still really like my list from July but I felt I need to add the dark depths combo to have a faster win condition as I was taking too many draws against slow Miracles players. The rest of the changes all stemmed from getting crop rotation main board with dark depths
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69791

I may try going back to the July list for SCG Invitational in Richmond since there are 55 mins rounds and then see if I want the velocity dark depths offers for the following SCGs in Providence and Worchester in the coming months

[Bosaapje]

I unfortunately have not had much of a chance to play Magic lately since I am getting married next month.

That list is actually mostly from before treasure cruise, the biggest changes I made for treasure cruise/UR Delver was to add the NoSB and second Tabernacle to the sideboard.

I still really like my list from July but I felt I need to add the dark depths combo to have a faster win condition as I was taking too many draws against slow Miracles players. The rest of the changes all stemmed from getting crop rotation main board with dark depths
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69791

I may try going back to the July list for SCG Invitational in Richmond since there are 55 mins rounds and then see if I want the velocity dark depths offers for the following SCGs in Providence and Worchester in the coming months

Congratulations on getting married!

How are the Bloodghasts for you? I never liked them because they can't block and I would rather have some removal or just a one off Spirit.

[jredelstein]

Congratulations on getting married!

How are the Bloodghasts for you? I never liked them because they can't block and I would rather have some removal or just a one off Spirit.

Thanks!

I really like Bloodghast, though a one of Spirit is probably better, blocking is a nice advantage though the haste clause has won me a lot of games. Bloodghasts and Factories are mostly for killing Jaces, but there is so much utility with Entomb and Cabal Therapy. Making land drops is easy with this deck so a 1-1 or 2-1 split should work nicely. I also don't own a Japanese Foil Nether Spirit so that is part of why I haven't run it yet :)

[jimmythegreek]

Anybody know where I can find some footage of Kurtis Frazier playing black pox. Im really digging his list, especially the three chain of mephistophles main (something im definetly gonna try). Also, its apparent that pox loses in top deck battles. Whats the verdict on phyrexian arena, why is it never found in any decklists?

[OmniStrata]

Anybody know where I can find some footage of Kurtis Frazier playing black pox. Im really digging his list, especially the three chain of mephistophles main (something im definetly gonna try). Also, its apparent that pox loses in top deck battles. Whats the verdict on phyrexian arena, why is it never found in any decklists?

Deck eats your own life and destroys your own hand. Arena is helping your opponent win and your Liliana and Smallpox is helping your opponent 'discard your hand' so to speak.

Where did you hear that Pox loses top deck battles? :eyebrow: If your permanents on the field are geared toward defeating anything they draw, how would you lose?

Now if you say Pox loses extremely long games of 20 turns or more, that is more likely to happen if your enemy is a traditional control deck with tons of lands and hard card draw spells. But if you're of the Prison Variety Pox that likes to Crucible Waste-lock/Ghost Quarter lock, you probably have nothing to fear.

[jimmythegreek]

Deck eats your own life and destroys your own hand. Arena is helping your opponent win and your Liliana and Smallpox is helping your opponent 'discard your hand' so to speak.

Where did you hear that Pox loses top deck battles? :eyebrow: If your permanents on the field are geared toward defeating anything they draw, how would you lose?

Now if you say Pox loses extremely long games of 20 turns or more, that is more likely to happen if your enemy is a traditional control deck with tons of lands and hard card draw spells. But if you're of the Prison Variety Pox that likes to Crucible Waste-lock/Ghost Quarter lock, you probably have nothing to fear.

I should have prefaced by saying im on the 8 rack version and that losing in top deck battles have been primarily to blue decks who rip a cantrip to find answers to my strategy. I still believe that phyrexian arena wouldnt be bad especially how fast this deck seems to empty its hand. After too long we are drawing ( maybe business) one spell and our opponents hand keeps getting larger. I often feel its extremely difficult when having to play catch-up.

[gigapatrick]

Anybody know where I can find some footage of Kurtis Frazier playing black pox.

Hey, everyone. I've been buddies with Kurtis since high school (we're both in our thirties now) and we've been playing magic for about as long. Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of videos of Kurtis playing. In fact, there are only two that I know of: one against Chris Andersen playing Tezzeret, and another done at our LGS a little while ago. The links to both follow. It sucks, but the truth is that, while Kurt is a serious grinder, his success on the SCG circuit has been limited. He did have that tenth place listing not too long ago, which was awesome, but he doesn't have any wins or anything like that (though I root for him every time). In addition to that, the SCG team has some serious bias against Pox. More than once Eric Rill, who Kurtis is friends with, has asked them to put him on camera, since he's at a bunch of opens and is the only one consistently piloting Monoblack. A refusal has answered each of these requests, usually accompanied by the excuse that no one wants to see Pox on camera because it is boring to watch. Not too boring if Reid Duke decides to take it for a spin, but too boring otherwise. As a consolation prize, I'd like to provide a link to my blog on MTGSavlation, which has links to about thirty MTGO videos I recorded piloting Monoblack. Keep in mind, before you watch, that I'm in no way a pro player, nor do I pretend to be on these videos. I'm just an enthusiast of the deck (though, I have to admit, I no longer pilot it, due to a hard decision I made after a string of failures with the deck.) Anyway, enjoy the videos.

Kurtis at our LGS. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OskXGkXRmyk&index=1&list=PL37fccruerTZssv2UDImBsFyK29kgAipb)

Kurtis makes a huge mistake in this video. Good thing his opponent doesn't see.

Kurtis against Chris Andersen. (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgnash-legacy-rd-3-chris-andersen-vs-kurtis-frazier-6590989)

Notice the heinous comments about Pox from the commentators. Interesting sidenote: in the third game, Andersen borrows Kurtis' huge green 20-sided. Pretty fun.

My MTGO videos. (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/my-content/userblogs/gigapatrick-blog)

The videos are under the title "Spreading a Plague." The other entries are written tournament reports.

Enjoy, friends.

[OmniStrata]

I should have prefaced by saying im on the 8 rack version and that losing in top deck battles have been primarily to blue decks who rip a cantrip to find answers to my strategy. I still believe that phyrexian arena wouldnt be bad especially how fast this deck seems to empty its hand. After too long we are drawing ( maybe business) one spell and our opponents hand keeps getting larger. I often feel its extremely difficult when having to play catch-up.

With cards like Liliana of the Veil, Bottomless Pit, Necrogen Mists, Hymn to Tourach, Wrench Mind, and Ensnaring Bridge, I'm not sure how they can draw enough and keep enough in their hand. Oh there's also old school Oppression. If they're drawing too much, punish them with Underworld Dreams. I used to run an 8 rack version till I discovered the joy of Wasteland and Sinkhole. Rack can't kill creatures and makes for a great offense, but is poor on defense, hence probably why you're losing the topdeck wars. If you really need a permanent on the field to help with that, I'd suggest Sensei's Divining Top and a Dredger like Dakmor Salvage or Darkblast. Pox doesn't want to burn life on fetch lands and some dredging spells are great for getting rid of chaff that'll build otherwise.

I don't like it, but I'm not a Rack runner, I'm a Prison Warden... :mad: Another option that's pricey on mana but works better than top is Crystal Ball. No fetchlands needed, I used to run 2 of them till I learned burning mana to disrupt gave me better results. But since you're a Rack pilot, perhaps it'll do better and you can spare the mana? [you're not using wasteland to kill your own mana base]

[OmniStrata]

Has anyone tried using Extirpate as a way to ruin a Miracle's 'escape plan'? Recently, my last game against my friend's fully powered Miracles deck had us down to low library counts and when he used SDT to place Council's Judgement on top of his deck, I decided to Extirpate one of his Counterspells.

It saved my Underworld Dreams, which was killing him in 3 turns and two turns later, after top spinning like a madman, he dies. I'm beginning to think shuffle effects like Ghost Quarter + Extirpate + Surgical Extraction are REALLY strong in Pox vs. decks that like to cheat their best cards to the top of the deck. Think: SDT + Combo Tutors + Brainstorm. Any other goofy ways to deal with problem decks?

[beez]

Apparently Mikokoro, Center of the Sea is good in some applications against certain combo decks and can also mess up a Miracle top deck. Mainly it can keep Omni-tell from winning the "fight" with the last card in the deck, and against Storm can make them draw a card in response to a hellbent Infernal Tutor. I haven't decided if I think this is too narrow, but could be better in a deck that uses Crop Rotation, but even with mono black you could use it to have them discard the card they were Brianstorm hiding from your Liliana.

[OmniStrata]

Apparently Mikokoro, Center of the Sea is good in some applications against certain combo decks and can also mess up a Miracle top deck. Mainly it can keep Omni-tell from winning the "fight" with the last card in the deck, and against Storm can make them draw a card in response to a hellbent Infernal Tutor. I haven't decided if I think this is too narrow, but could be better in a deck that uses Crop Rotation, but even with mono black you could use it to have them discard the card they were Brianstorm hiding from your Liliana.

Holy crap, old school. I have 1 copy of Mikokoro, though I didn't realize it can royally screw up Miracle Counterbalance and Infernal Tutor. Then again, I don't fight those decks often. What I do like is how it flies well in the face of Liliana and since I'm a Crucible user, discarding top decked lands is a boon, not a curse.

[darkhelmet709]

Hey, everyone. I've been buddies with Kurtis since high school (we're both in our thirties now) and we've been playing magic for about as long. Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of videos of Kurtis playing. In fact, there are only two that I know of: one against Chris Andersen playing Tezzeret, and another done at our LGS a little while ago. The links to both follow. It sucks, but the truth is that, while Kurt is a serious grinder, his success on the SCG circuit has been limited. He did have that tenth place listing not too long ago, which was awesome, but he doesn't have any wins or anything like that (though I root for him every time). In addition to that, the SCG team has some serious bias against Pox. More than once Eric Rill, who Kurtis is friends with, has asked them to put him on camera, since he's at a bunch of opens and is the only one consistently piloting Monoblack. A refusal has answered each of these requests, usually accompanied by the excuse that no one wants to see Pox on camera because it is boring to watch. Not too boring if Reid Duke decides to take it for a spin, but too boring otherwise. As a consolation prize, I'd like to provide a link to my blog on MTGSavlation, which has links to about thirty MTGO videos I recorded piloting Monoblack. Keep in mind, before you watch, that I'm in no way a pro player, nor do I pretend to be on these videos. I'm just an enthusiast of the deck (though, I have to admit, I no longer pilot it, due to a hard decision I made after a string of failures with the deck.) Anyway, enjoy the videos.

Kurtis at our LGS. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OskXGkXRmyk&index=1&list=PL37fccruerTZssv2UDImBsFyK29kgAipb)

Kurtis makes a huge mistake in this video. Good thing his opponent doesn't see.

Kurtis against Chris Andersen. (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgnash-legacy-rd-3-chris-andersen-vs-kurtis-frazier-6590989)

Notice the heinous comments about Pox from the commentators. Interesting sidenote: in the third game, Andersen borrows Kurtis' huge green 20-sided. Pretty fun.

My MTGO videos. (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/my-content/userblogs/gigapatrick-blog)

The videos are under the title "Spreading a Plague." The other entries are written tournament reports.

Enjoy, friends.
Hi Patrick,

I enjoyed your videos on youtube and watched almost all of them. What made you stop playing pox?

[gigapatrick]

Hi Patrick,

I enjoyed your videos on youtube and watched almost all of them. What made you stop playing pox?

I'm glad you enjoyed them. I had a great time making them.

To answer your question: I stopped playing Pox for a couple of reasons. First, though I didn't post all of them, I recorded about ten or so MTGO videos in which I lost horribly--and while losing ten matches is one thing, losing ten in a row (which is what happened) is another. I got very discouraged with the online matchups for Pox and felt like the deck wasn't really competitive online. Second, I went to two SCGs in my area--and did very poorly. The last time I piloted Monoblack, I think my record was something like 3-4-2. It was pitiful. Ultimately, I always felt like I was taking an underpowered deck to these tournaments, that I was playing from the start at a disadvantage, and that matchups I always thought were good (Stoneblade decks, Jund, miscellaneous midrange decks) were not in fact good at all. To be competitive in this heavy Miracles meta, I think either Monoblack needs a serious overhaul or you should pilot Loam Pox instead, at which point you should just be playing the best Loam deck there is, which is Lands. In any case, I still love the deck, still sometimes think about playing it, and look out from top sixteens from Pox every time there's an open. Good luck to you and everyone else with the deck.

[zebhillard]

I just finished a small 4 round legacy event here which was my first chance to actually sleeve up the black devil and give it a go. Going to get some sleep and then post a report tomorrow.

[zebhillard]

I ended up going 1-2-1 last night in a store run 12 person with the following, but discounting a misplay or two on my part I likely could have brought it up to 3-1 or at the least 2-2.

Here's what I played.

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Sinkhole
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Bloodghast
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nether Spirit
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Powder Keg
1 Extirpate

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
15 Swamp

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pithing Needle
1 Ebony Charm (I wasn't paying attention and grabbed the wrong charm on the way out the door
1 Dismember

I still haven't been able to get my hands on Wastelands or my final two IoK's (likely going to end up buying one of the Modern Masters decks just to assure I snag the IoK's at least). I ran the 2/1 Surgical/Extirpate split in hopes of making up for it is games ended up going long.

Round 1: Ian with Mono-Red Burn (2-1)
Game 1 he wins soundly, burning me out before I'm able to really get things locked down and stay at a level safe enough where his topdeck doesn't automatically kill me. Games 2 and 3 I end up stabilizing at 9 in both. Game 2 I first turn Liliana'd and dropped a Nether Spirit to hide behind for his initial rush, and ripped all of his sideboard cards out of his hand over turn 2 and 3. Game 3 was almost exactly the same.

Round 2: Charles with Oops, All Spells (0-2)
He took game 1 on turn 1 and I didn't have a Surgical in hand. In went the Leylines and Trinispheres. I proceed to mull to 4 and keep a Swamp-3xRitual hand and he Belchers me out on turn 2 when I don't see a Trini (my needed answer)/Leyline (my expected answer) on either of my draws.

Round 3: Joshua with Red Goblins with Thalia (1-0-1)
I go to 18 from a goblin before putting him in topdeck mode and killing his land, then kill him with a Nether Spirit / Bloodghast pair that occasionally does their duty as Innocent Blood targets. Liliana ultimates once in this game. After it's over he mentions he's never played against Pox before. He gets a lesson in how bad it can go. Game 2 he starts with turn 2 Rest in Peace and goes to time with me hiding behind triple Ensnaring Bridge (he brought in no Artifact hate). I ritualed out turn 1 Lili, turn 2 Innocent Blooded his Lackey, and turn 3 Bridged into an empty hand. Then I proceeded to sit behind the bridge and ultimate Liliana twice to keep him out of Sharpshooter win range and not draw a Cursed Scroll until turn 5 of extra time. It's why I'm considering a Worm Harvest or a third Cursed Scroll as an alternate/additional win con when I have to turtle under Bridge. Bo, who I will play in the fourth round, tells the guy to not worry. That's about as bad as Pox will get and if he can suffer through that kind of match without losing his mind, he's good to go in the future. Thoughts on an alternate win con, though?

Round 4: Bo with BUG Delver (1-2)
I manage a quick lock in game one, killing off multiple Tarmogoyf after a few hits to the dome by them. Mishra's Factory puts in all the work here over 7 rounds after he goes to 14 from fetch lands. Game 2 he drops an early Deathrite Shaman and protects it through various cheap counters after stopping another turn 1 Liliana. Deathrite goes all the way in this one. Game 3 I keep a questionable hand and end up paying for it, with Urborg getting Wastelanded and me having to Ghost Quarter a Ghost Quarter to end up with another source of black to continue. Double 'goyf does all the work for him in this one.

All in all I had a great time, easily one of the best I've had playing Magic recently. The group was excellent without a single person being cold or annoyingly unfriendly to a new guy showing up to play. My plan is to pop three or four cards out between now and next Saturday and take a more complete and solid version of the deck since they go weekly.

Edit/Update: I've made the full commitment to fleshing out the deck and I already know the following changes will happen.
MD
-2 Bloodghast
-1 Extirpate
-2 Surgical Extraction
-1 Swamp
+2 Nether Void
+1 Inquisition of Kozilek
+1 Nether Spirit
+1 Spinning Darkness
+1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB
+3 Engineered Plague
-1 Dismember
-1 Ebony Charm
-1 Trinisphere

Wastelands are going to have to wait a little while, but I think this is a solid start to getting the deck where I'd like it to be. I need to figure out where in the SB to make room for a Surgical Extraction or two, though.

[Hardcore]

Better luck next time!

[lyracian]

More than once Eric Rill, who Kurtis is friends with, has asked them to put him on camera, since he's at a bunch of opens and is the only one consistently piloting Monoblack. A refusal has answered each of these requests, usually accompanied by the excuse that no one wants to see Pox on camera because it is boring to watch. Not too boring if Reid Duke decides to take it for a spin, but too boring otherwise.
It is a shame to here they do not want to show more decks on camera.


IUltimately, I always felt like I was taking an underpowered deck to these tournaments, that I was playing from the start at a disadvantage, and that matchups I always thought were good (Stoneblade decks, Jund, miscellaneous midrange decks) were not in fact good at all. To be competitive in this heavy Miracles meta, I think either Monoblack needs a serious overhaul or you should pilot Loam Pox instead, at which point you should just be playing the best Loam deck there is, which is Lands.
I always find it is the consistency issues that make is seem under powered. When you have the correct cards it does well it is just the lack of deck manipulation that causes problems. As for Lands, while I know it has been promoted to DTB, without discard like Raven's crime the deck seems to suffer in a combo-heavy meta.

[OmniStrata]

Edit/Update: I've made the full commitment to fleshing out the deck and I already know the following changes will happen.
MD
-2 Bloodghast
-1 Extirpate
-2 Surgical Extraction
-1 Swamp
+2 Nether Void
+1 Inquisition of Kozilek
+1 Nether Spirit
+1 Spinning Darkness
+1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB
+3 Engineered Plague
-1 Dismember
-1 Ebony Charm
-1 Trinisphere

Wastelands are going to have to wait a little while, but I think this is a solid start to getting the deck where I'd like it to be. I need to figure out where in the SB to make room for a Surgical Extraction or two, though.

You should get the Wastelands first, then Nether Voids. Unless you own them already, in which case, I are jealous. :cry: I'd definitely recommend a Night of Souls' Betrayal if you're going to be hiding behind a bridge and removing Bloodghast.

[zebhillard]

You should get the Wastelands first, then Nether Voids. Unless you own them already, in which case, I are jealous. :cry: I'd definitely recommend a Night of Souls' Betrayal if you're going to be hiding behind a bridge and removing Bloodghast.

They're Italian, but I do have them. Wastelands will be replacing Ghost Quarter within the week, though.

D'oh. I knew I forgot something. I /do/ want either a NoSB or BSZ in the main. Suggestions on what to take out?

[Hardcore]

I am curious about the potential of Darkness.
It is a time walk vs creature decks. Sometimes one extra turn is all i need.

[zenitramleirdag]

I am curious about the potential of Darkness.
It is a time walk vs creature decks. Sometimes one extra turn is all i need.

did somebody say darkness??!! :eek:
yay!! turbo fog!!
now all i need are howling mines, font of mythos, temple bells, etc..
now i can fog my way to victory!! :laugh:

[gigapatrick]

I always find it is the consistency issues that make is seem under powered. When you have the correct cards it does well it is just the lack of deck manipulation that causes problems. As for Lands, while I know it has been promoted to DTB, without discard like Raven's crime the deck seems to suffer in a combo-heavy meta.

I agree about Pox's consistency issues. Without library manipulation, every draw is a hope and pray draw, and that's just not going to cut it for a big tournament.

[OmniStrata]

You should get the Wastelands first, then Nether Voids. Unless you own them already, in which case, I are jealous. :cry: I'd definitely recommend a Night of Souls' Betrayal if you're going to be hiding behind a bridge and removing Bloodghast.

Powder Keg. Unless Affinity makes a comeback, Night of Souls' Betrayal will auto win you. Once I fought Thopter Foundry and that topdeck literally won me a losing game. I'd never run less than 1 or more than 2.

About consistency, if your board position is good, you shouldn't have to worry about your next draws. When you get Liliana, and Cursed Scroll, you've practically locked the game unless your foe can draw 3 cards and cast 2 of them, in which case, you didn't disrupt hard enough and should have mulliganed.

If consistency is key, may as well go Blue Pox with Brainstorms and fetch lands and etc. Though we're not a traditional control deck, I wouldn't try it. I did use that before using cool things like Shadow of Doubt [the black cantrip stifle]. In that case, going Force of Will becomes too tempting and then you're no longer Pox... :tongue:

[jimmythegreek]

I agree about Pox's consistency issues. Without library manipulation, every draw is a hope and pray draw, and that's just not going to cut it for a big tournament.

Very few decks in legacy exist tier 1 without card draw or manipulation. I really dont think phyrexian arena is so terrible to test, I unfortunately am on the eight rack version and dont own wastelands or sinkholes. Turn one ritual into arena > turn one lilianna.

[zebhillard]

If consistency is key, may as well go Blue Pox with Brainstorms and fetch lands and etc. Though we're not a traditional control deck, I wouldn't try it. I did use that before using cool things like Shadow of Doubt [the black cantrip stifle]. In that case, going Force of Will becomes too tempting and then you're no longer Pox... :tongue:

While I wasn't considering Brainstorm + Fetch Lands...part of me was thinking about 2xSDT + a single Thawing Glaciers, or two copies of Infernal Tutor, for the games that you're empty handed and just need one card to turn a soft lock into a hard one.

[OmniStrata]

Turn one ritual into arena > turn one lilianna.

:eek:SACRILEGE!:eek: In any case, what you have effectively done is say, "Mono-back control is > Pox control". Normal control decks want to draw more cards, but as Pox, we're not 'normal control'. Our job, nay, duty and obligation, is to function under a self induced worst case scenario. :cool: Wasteland, Smallpox, Pox, Liliana, and Innocent Blood all destroy our own resources and our opponent's. Control decks traditionally want to function with as many resources as possible. 1 massively gigantic threat that's near impossible to kill and lots of mana on field and lots of cards in hand. As Pox, we poke you to death with 2 weenies in the form of Mishra's factories and Nether Spirits while you try to figure out how to play with no cards, blockers, or lands.

If you think about the overall objective, we are almost a tempo deck looking to do the most influence with the least resources, hence Dark Ritual. I say almost in that we don't play threats first then disrupt like RUG Tempo Thresh. We disrupt and use threats that cost no mana (Nether discarded and Mishra's land drop).

For me, when I first joined magic, and I still love it, I wanted a deck with the most effective form of Land Destruction possible. That, is my favorite Pox deck type. And it's the only deck that has effective LD as far as Legacy can tell.

[zebhillard]

Whenever I'm playing, I find myself really wanting a way to institute a hard lock against an opponent. Land Destruction, Liliana, and a cost increase like Trinisphere or Nether Void all set up the game to be able to force the opponent to top-deck, but leaves that as a potential avenue for their victory unless we can completely shut them out of one resource (land) or control their draws (even fateseal isn't enough, a discard effect that can take place inside their draw-step is the only action I can think of).

Without these two capabilities, Liliana Pox will always have a weakness that can be hoped for. The issue is minimizing this weakness in one form or another (raising the cost of casting spells above their available mana, perhaps), which can be difficult at times. So, brainstorming on that has been my time-killer for the last few days and I'm still trying to work on something. The only things that come to mind are a form of Necrogen Spellbomb recursion, or an instant discard attached to Isochron Scepter? This still leaves them the ability to cast in response to the activation...which is something I don't think we'll be able to escape.

[OmniStrata]

Whenever I'm playing, I find myself really wanting a way to institute a hard lock against an opponent. Land Destruction, Liliana, and a cost increase like Trinisphere or Nether Void all set up the game to be able to force the opponent to top-deck, but leaves that as a potential avenue for their victory unless we can completely shut them out of one resource (land) or control their draws (even fateseal isn't enough, a discard effect that can take place inside their draw-step is the only action I can think of).

Without these two capabilities, Liliana Pox will always have a weakness that can be hoped for. The issue is minimizing this weakness in one form or another (raising the cost of casting spells above their available mana, perhaps), which can be difficult at times. So, brainstorming on that has been my time-killer for the last few days and I'm still trying to work on something. The only things that come to mind are a form of Necrogen Spellbomb recursion, or an instant discard attached to Isochron Scepter? This still leaves them the ability to cast in response to the activation...which is something I don't think we'll be able to escape.

You're thinking about Isochron Scepter on Funeral Charm, which is also a nasty way to kill weenies, give your guys unblockable [yay Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth], or add more power to your attacks. However, it is mana hungry. There is no instant aside from a Miracle that is worth worrying about as a Pox player. Our targets are supposed to be hard to kill due to the sacrifice protocols we've induced upon ourselves. Your spellbomb recursion is a 3 card 'combo'. Crucible of Worlds, Buried Ruin, Necrogen Spellbomb. I find Liliana alone to be enough. I used to run Trisphere in my Crucible's spot, but running a 1 of Ghost Quarter with 4 Wastelands and Crucible is just true evil... :tongue: There are no 1 cmc spells that I fear and if they're a greedy mana deck, it's auto win for me.

[jredelstein]

There is no instant aside from a Miracle that is worth worrying about as a Pox player.

I agree with Omni that worrying about a hard lock is not worth the deck space, I play G/B Pox so maybe my take is a little different but that is why when we get out opponent into topdeck mode (Exactly where pox wants to be as soon as possible) we need to present a threat and answer to their draws. Liliana is probably the best answer as it keeps them from holding cards and answers creatures.

If you are really in the market for a hard lock piece why not run Anvil of Bogardan and Chains of Mephistopheles? Chains is already a great card in pox and Anvil will do double duty for you since you can discard things like Bloodghast, Nether Spirit, or untility lands (with crucible in play, or Life from loam for GB builds)

I personally think that adding a convoluted hard lock is just diluting your deck. You will lose more games to drawing hard lock pieces when you need disruption than you would have lost to players getting out of a soft lock.

[zebhillard]

I took revised Pox (with the changes listed in the previous e-mail) to the LGS last Saturday and ended up doing a bit better, finishing the night at 2-1. We only had 8 players because there were plenty of other things going on, but I felt good about the rounds as they happened.

Round 1 - Sneak & Show (2-1)
He took game 1 in short order, as I didn't have enough disruption to keep him off a Show and Tell, and my best answers to a giant beast entering play aren't valid with Show and Tell. Game 2 he conceded when I put in an Ensnaring Bridge into play off of his first turn Show and Tell then proceeded to play Swamp, Scroll, Ritual, Liliana leaving me with a hand of one card. Game 3 was similar, but included turn 1 Pithing Needle on Grislebrand, Turn 2 Pithing Needle on Sneak Attack and Ritual into Liliana, Turn 3 Ensnaring Bridge.

Round 2 - Reanimator (2-0)
Two quick games without much of note happening. I respond to his turn 2 Exhume with double Surgical Extraction on Elesh Norn and Iona, then proceed to Bojuka Bog the rest of his grave a few turns later as he tries to rebuild; and game 2 I start with a Leyline in play and then go full on land destruction after putting a Nether Void in play.

Round 3 - Goblins (0-2)
This one was upsetting. Game 1 I mulligan to 5 and keep a hand that's "meh" but couldn't get any better if I went to 4, and slow him with with a Night of Soul's Betrayal and some disruption, but he eventually Vial's through my kill and takes it. Game 2 I board in the Bridges and Engineered Plagues and hold him off for a short while after a t1 Pithing Needle on Vial and t2 Ritual -> Nether Void, but I'm reduced to topdecking and he starts cranking out Goblins through back to back Cavern of Souls that I can't blow up fast enough to allow me to manage his creatures.

I feel much better this week than last week, a few of the control options worked great and I was never upset to see a Nether Void hit my hand. I still think the deck needs a way to "topdeck better" though. In several games if I drew into a tutor or other effect I think they could have ended quicker or differently.

[OmniStrata]

Losing to Goblins when you've needled the Vial and have Ensnaring Bridges and Night of Souls' Betrayal is ultimately just bad luck. You had Engineered Plague too right? :frown:

As far as deck manipulation is concerned, if you're really that desperate for it, the best one I've found in a mono-B config is Crystal Ball. Unlike, SDT, it doesn't cause garbage draws after 4 turns and we don't need to run fetchland effects. If you want to draw more cards, I suppose Bottled Cloister will be a solid choice for you since you run bridges, but Liliana won't love you for it.

I was tempted to test Druidic Satchel since it turns all top decks into a resource of some sort, but it's mana cost is steep.

[zebhillard]

I had boarded in 3 Bridges and 3 Plagues, but saw 0 of either in game 2. Just bad luck on that one, I don't really chalk it up to anything else.

Edit Update and Such: I've decided to go all in, since a windfall has just been gifted upon me. The Abyss and a pair of Chains of Meph will be heading my direction in short order, and the Wastelands will be arriving tomorrow. Next week when I'm finally able to make it back, Pox will be in full force with all of the traditional powerful old school flavor. I just can't decide if I want to run 1xAbyss + Nether Void main with 2 Infernal Tutors and one of each of the enchant worlds in the SB, or 2 of each in the Main.

[Themucher]

Hey everybody. i was just introduced to thesource a few weeks ago and have been perusing the forums for a while and i found this primer. while i have seen pox in action i have never played the deck myself, played a version in modern called 8rack but not quite the same when you cant run the fun cards.

I had two question about this decks matchups. the gamestore that i play at has a higher count of death and taxes and elves decks running around along the normal amount of wonderful jank that is legacy. how is the death and taxes and elves matchups? is there any big sideboard cards that you would recommend?

[zebhillard]

How is the death and taxes and elves matchups? is there any big sideboard cards that you would recommend?

I have yet to play against D&T, but I did run through a few games against Elves over the last two weeks. Game one is a toss up, with you needing to be on the ball to keep their creature count low enough so that they can't drop a Cradle and do the Crop Rotation dance to pop out a Craterhoof when you have no instant speed removal. After sideboarding when the Engineered Plagues, Night of Soul's Betrayals, and Ensnaring Bridges come in though...they have a much more difficult time. You just have to make sure their hand stays free of Abrupt Decay and Malestrom Pulse if they're splashing black, and you keep them from getting enchant/artifact hate elves active, then sit and tear away at all of their resources. Unlike Goblins, I've actually yet to lose a game to elves post-board.

[OmniStrata]

Hey everybody. i was just introduced to thesource a few weeks ago and have been perusing the forums for a while and i found this primer. while i have seen pox in action i have never played the deck myself, played a version in modern called 8rack but not quite the same when you cant run the fun cards.

I had two question about this decks matchups. the gamestore that i play at has a higher count of death and taxes and elves decks running around along the normal amount of wonderful jank that is legacy. how is the death and taxes and elves matchups? is there any big sideboard cards that you would recommend?

Fought a Craterhoof combo elves and D&T. My modified version of Reid Duke's Mono-B Pox has never lost to D&T. A vast majority of D&T involves humans and several tax creatures that have 1 toughness. If you can stall long enough to hit your 1-2 of Night of Souls' Betrayal, it's a bye. I also maindeck a single Engineered Plague.

Combo Elves game 1 is extremely hard since all my Ensnaring Bridges and extra Plagues are in my board. I just side out my Inquisitions and Hymns for 8 creature stalling permanents. Key to elves match is to deal with their board presence and worry about their hand later. If it's in their hand, it's not breaking your jaw. :laugh:

[jredelstein]

how is the death and taxes and elves matchups? is there any big sideboard cards that you would recommend?

I play G/B Pox and find Death and Taxes to be a very favorable match-up. Elves is favorable but less than D&T. I feel like any opponent that Smallpox gets them on every mode is a good match-up. Elves can flood the board so if you can't get 2 for 1s you'll fall behind too fast, keep this in mind sideboarding, take out cards that 1 for 1 for the 2-1s even if they are slower, Example: I'd rather have Golgari Charm and Night of Soul's Betrayal than Inquisition of Kozilek and Abrupt Decay.

Tabernacle is amazing against Elves, I also like Cabal Therapy against both because it hits equipment searched by SfM and Glimpse and Natural Order are the most important cards from Elves (Remember with therapy name the card that beats you not the card you think they might have).

[zenitramleirdag]

i too run a slightly tweaked reid duke list with night of soul's betrayal main deck and some engineered plagues, toxic deluge and spinning darkness at the side..they are usually enough to keep creature swarm strategies in check..but if your meta is specifically full of elves and DnT..then i'd try perish and dread of night instead..

[Hardcore]

Trying a rational approach to deck building i have made some radical changes.*
The effect of discard is too temporary and does not have any synergy with my creatures. i am thinking of a switch to permanent based disruption.


4 avatar of discord
4 bloodghast
4 bloodsoaked champion
1 nether spirit
4 pack rat
2 necroplasm

4 chalice of the void
4 chrome mox
4 pox
3 engineered plague
3 ratchet bomb
3 leyline of the void

2 mishra's factory
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
16 swamp
1 dakmor salvage

With all the Dark Depths and DtT some gy hate in main seem worthwhile.
*I tend to do so after reading Karsten kötter's latest article.

[OmniStrata]

Trying a rational approach to deck building i have made some radical changes.*
The effect of discard is too temporary and does not have any synergy with my creatures. i am thinking of a switch to permanent based disruption.


4 avatar of discord
4 bloodghast
4 bloodsoaked champion
1 nether spirit
4 pack rat
2 necroplasm

4 chalice of the void
4 chrome mox
4 pox
3 engineered plague
3 ratchet bomb
3 leyline of the void

2 mishra's factory
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
16 swamp
1 dakmor salvage

With all the Dark Depths and DtT some gy hate in main seem worthwhile.
*I tend to do so after reading Karsten kötter's latest article.

That is radical. No smallpox? :eek: What happens when you topdeck Avatar of Discord? Chalice is an interesting way of dealing with combo/Brainstorm. Is Leyline a wasted turn if you draw it vs. a deck that doesn't use it's graveyard? Does Necroplasm shut off Pack Rat? or do you simply not cast it once the Rat is board swarming (dead card)? Will Nether Spirit ever get 'jammed' if Avatar of Discord gets Bolted (assuming the Chalice got removed)? That's a high mana curve with 21 lands and no Dark Rituals.

I looked over the article you mentioned. Was it "Finding your Deckbuilding style"? Permanent based disruption is awesome. It's the key to nullfying topdecks. What's the gameplan with this deck?

[beez]

I've only had a chance to play with my Chalice Loam Pox deck in a couple of tournaments since TC banning, going 3-1 and 2-2. Here are some reports best as I remember.

Casual Friday night Legacy
First up:Burn. Yuck, heart starts racing from the start. Price of Progress, ouch. Lavamancer and Eidelon and Fireblast end me turn 3 or 4
Game two I get an early Chalice out, but that only shuts off part of the deck. A couple Smallpox and a very painful but necessary Toxic Deluge with Eidelon out get me very low, but his land is too suppressed to Fireblast me as I hover above 4. I make the Marit token early, because he can't do anything about it and block a Goblin Guide with it before swinging for the win next turn.
Game 3 I have the natural draw, as happens occasionally, including Stage, Depths and Urborg. Against a helpless burn in this regard I luckily roll out those three lands on consecutive turns for a turn 3 Marit Lage. Burn can't really do anything about that.
(1-0)

I have never considered Death and Taxes as the best matchup either and they are typically pretty grindy and could go either way, if not slightly in their favor, and this was no different.
Game one I got The Abyss out and it was many turns till he drew the Councils Judgement, but by that time I was too far ahead for him to catch up.
Game two I was hurting for mana and had my Mox Diamond Flickerwisped away. Watch out for that one against DnT. After a couple of turns of drawing no land I scooped.
Game 3 He started off with a Vial, a Thalia and a couple of Ports and even a Karakas. I thought I was in real trouble, but as it turned out I was just so absurdly flooded with land that I could pay the Port and Thalia taxes enough to Decay the Vial and Smallpox away the Thalia and a land. Meanwhile he was having trouble drawing land and his Ports were committed to keeping me at bay. A Life from the Loam later and those Ports and Karakas were at the mercy of my Wastelands and he didn't draw much more land.
(2-0)

The next match was against The Gate (!!) I love that deck and was happy to see it though not happy to be playing against it. The Gate has a ton of sac effects, but aside from the couple of Diabolic Edicts he brought in game two, they are fortunately not at instant speed. The Bitterblossom tokens made it tough for Marit to get by and subjected him to sorcery speed saccing. Toxic Deluge and Abrupt Decay on the Blossom were key. The Cabal Therapies with Bitterblossom and Bloodghast were very vicious too. Somehow I kept enough pressure on to win, but it was tough. I seem to remember having to block an Abyssal Persecutor with a Marit Lage token. I still think the Gate is a good deck. I may break it back out to give it a run as well soon.
(3-0)

Last round. Aaargh more Tokens! I thought Treasure Cruise was banned. After this run I thought it would be easier to beat the reduced strength UR Delver, which even during TC heyday I managed to keep somewhat even with. But that's Magic. The clock was fast, nip and tuck all games. Sometimes you win these, sometimes you don't. Submerge can be an issue against tempo, but I still don't think it is worth changing the mana base since I don't play it as an all in combo anyway.
(3-1)

Legacy side event during a larger Standard tourney.

The first game was against another deck packing Chalice and Trinisphere. I sided all that out and ended up Wishing for a Reclamation Sage to get rid of a Blood Moon lock and was able to combo off.
(1-0)
Next up was Dark Maverick. This is a tough one. They have all the Wasteland and Karakas and the ability to tutor for them with Knights as well as Deathrite Shaman, thorn in the side of Loam decks in general, and the ability to Green Sun through a Chalice@ 1 to play him anyway, and Swords for the Marit token. Even with all that I had some chances and had him on the ropes chaining Smallpoxes, but mulligans, never drawing any of my Wastelands or Loams and him drawing Knight after Knight proved too much in the end.
(1-1)

The next game was against Oops All Spells. It was actually the first time I ever faced it and by the time I figured out what was going on it was over. The second game I tried to mull for a Chalice@ 0 for the Mox Opal but couldn't find it and that was it. The Bojuka Bogs proved to be way too slow in this matchup especially without Crop Rotation.
(1-2)

I think I may add back in the Leylines of the Void. They take up an extra precious sideboard slot and are not as versatile, but they just shut some degenerate stuff down completely. I find I wasn't Wishing for Bogs or Fareie Macabre outside of strictly grave decks anyway. Though I was really hoping for a Bojuka Bog against Maverick with Knights. The downside of Leyline is that it suffers from bounce with Chain of Vapor, difficult to replay and Natures Claim , but the upside is that Chalice@ 1 shuts that out too and they are just dead in the water. Abrupt Decay can't touch it either. Living the dream is starting with a Leyline in play and then Mox Diamond into Chalice against Dredge first turn. It happened once awhile back and was the easiest win I ever had in magic .

The last match was against Jund, which I beat like a red headed stepchild as usual in this matchup.
(2-2)

Another thing I thought of, as I've been playing around with a Cloudpost deck that uses Hickory Woodlot to ramp is to include a Peat Bog to complement the Mox Diamonds and help accelerate into turn 2 Lillianas and Trinisphere or to play an early Chalice around Daze, or to fix two black mana to play a Lilly, Smallpox or Hymn asap. It of course can be fetched back by Loam. I think the deck could support a second one but tough to know what to take out. Go with just 3 legendary Urborg, maybe, but I like fixing the black mana with colorless lands as much as possible. As it is, I took out the basic swamp for the first Peat Bog. It turns out the basic Forest mattered more to me in the games where I felt I needed to fetch basics. Price of Progress is a beating, but it is not going to lose you the game on the spot like Blood Moon and to some extent,Back to Basics. With an opposing Wasteland out I'd get the Forest to protect the ability to get back my fetchlands with Loam to out fetch any opposing Wasteland damage, but primarily because the ways of dealing with the enchantment involve green, the sided in Krosan Grip, the ability to Living Wish for Reclamation Sage for it and hope to draw or already have a Mox Diamond out to play Abrupt Decay.

In the side I've had some debate for this slot of fetchable creature. Tombstalker vs Nether Spirit vs Necroplasm . Tomby was my beater I won many games in an alternate fashion with, But during the Treasure Cruise era I switched to Necroplasm, with cheap creatures and tokens running rampant. Recently I have gone with the more defensive Nether Spirit and the ability to Wish for him and put him in play next turn with a Smallpox or Liliana tic (and blocking for Liliana too). It may be too duplicate to have both him and Maze of Ith to Wish for in those circumstances, but the point of the Pox- Depths rather than all-in combo is that defence and resiliancy wins championships.

So this is what the decklist looks like now with just a couple of minor changes.



1 The Abyss
3 Sylvan Library

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish
4 Smallpox
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Wasteland
3 Dark Depths
3 Thespian's Stage
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Urborg,Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Side
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Nether Spirit
1 Reclaimation Sage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Trinisphere
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Leyline of the Void



The Maelstrom Pulse slot could be a third Toxic Deluge, a Golgari Charm or a Night of Soul's Betrayal or even a Perish. Not sure yet, but it is close to being tuned for now. Going to work on my non-Chalice Loam based on Joshua's, want to try the Bloodghast-Cabal Therapy thing, and shore up my mono-black build based on Omni's. To me they are good enough and different enough decks to play and enjoy in their own right.

[OmniStrata]

https://www.facebook.com/MTGatTCGplayer/photos/a.126338520782353.31802.117422515007287/807107896038742/?type=1

8 Liliana Pox? This form of Lili is not only hot and full of flavor, but the ones who want to run a more aggro Pox or even, Land Destruction centered Pox should most definitely look into her. Would I run 8 Liliana? Don't know. Would I get a play set of her cause of the hawtness? No question.

I mention LD because for LD to work, it wants fast threats and Liliana in this form now let's you recycle any creature in your deck. Though now I wonder, are we allowed the Liliana Creature and Planeswalkers in play at the same time? Probably a rules change for that to work since they're different.

Time to consider Hypnotic Specter backed by Sinkholes and Rancid Earth and Wastelands and heck, Icequakes? Choking Sands would work if I didn't run Urborgs.

[Hardcore]

That is radical. No smallpox? :eek: What happens when you topdeck Avatar of Discord? Chalice is an interesting way of dealing with combo/Brainstorm. Is Leyline a wasted turn if you draw it vs. a deck that doesn't use it's graveyard? Does Necroplasm shut off Pack Rat? or do you simply not cast it once the Rat is board swarming (dead card)? Will Nether Spirit ever get 'jammed' if Avatar of Discord gets Bolted (assuming the Chalice got removed)? That's a high mana curve with 21 lands and no Dark Rituals.

I looked over the article you mentioned. Was it "Finding your Deckbuilding style"? Permanent based disruption is awesome. It's the key to nullfying topdecks. What's the gameplan with this deck?

Thanks for showing interest! You have a very good eye for points that would cause worry!

*What's the gameplan with this deck?
To use disruption to allow for a weaker form of win condition. Few decks, if any, are good at handling permanents like enchantments and artifacts.

First turn land, chrome mox, chalice on one. Go. This mean i build to avoid cc1 spells, of course.

My inspiration comes from a Semi-God of Revenge deck someone recently described on MTG Salvation, IIRC. It also ran an Infernal Contract + Soul Spike combo. Very interesting, but I am not sure about how well that works agains aggressive decks. The God was obviously to expensive, but I found the Avatar could have place in a deck that actually is built for discard.

*No smallpox?
No, i found it is best against DRS mainly, and is really not good for the mana curve.
Still, if I ran control pox the play set would of course be part of the 75!

*What happens when you topdeck Avatar of Discord?
Not much. Testing will show if this a problem.

*Is Leyline a wasted turn if you draw it vs. a deck that doesn't use it's graveyard?
Those types are in minority. Lots of Loam and Dig through time around. (DtT is even more sick than TC!) It looks like KotR got a come back too.
Any i draw late can be fed to a chrome mox, or a Rat. I would rather play Relic of Progenitus, of course, but you know, Chalice on one.

*Does Necroplasm shut off Pack Rat?
Necroplasm fill the functions of feeding Pox, Avatar and Rats, while dredging up more ghasts.
Its secondary use is to kill the creatures of delver decks, including tokens.
Note that the Rats are not tokens but copies.
Thus they are safe, to a degree, from kegs, explosives and Necroplasm. Not everyone knows this, but they learn😸

*Will Nether Spirit ever get 'jammed' if Avatar of Discord gets Bolted (assuming the Chalice got removed)?
Maybe. No big deal to me.

*That's a high mana curve with 21 lands and no Dark Rituals.
The chrome moxes are ok, and a neccesssary evil.
It's wash between mox and ritual, but mox work better with chalice.

I would have played it last tuesday but overslept and missed the tourney😾

This decklist is a draft and i welcome all suggestions for improvements!

[beez]

https://www.facebook.com/MTGatTCGplayer/photos/a.126338520782353.31802.117422515007287/807107896038742/?type=1

8 Liliana Pox? This form of Lili is not only hot and full of flavor, but the ones who want to run a more aggro Pox or even, Land Destruction centered Pox should most definitely look into her. Would I run 8 Liliana? Don't know. Would I get a play set of her cause of the hawtness? No question.

I mention LD because for LD to work, it wants fast threats and Liliana in this form now let's you recycle any creature in your deck. Though now I wonder, are we allowed the Liliana Creature and Planeswalkers in play at the same time? Probably a rules change for that to work since they're different.

Time to consider Hypnotic Specter backed by Sinkholes and Rancid Earth and Wastelands and heck, Icequakes? Choking Sands would work if I didn't run Urborgs.

I haven't looked it up yet, but I think you could have the creature out at the same time as the Planeswalker, since it just says "Legendary Creature" , but when it flips it would be a "Planeswalker- Liliana" and you would have to choose which of your Liliana Planeswalkers to keep.
It certainly looks like a cool card, but would be hard to slide into an existing LD control Pox, as you don't have enough creatures to reliably die and flip the Lilly. It would be better with a much more creature-y Pox build, maybe like some of Hardcore's. It would be most reliable and have synchronicity with a deck with Bloodghasts and Cabal Therapies and the like, but the problem there would be that the minus ability on her would be weakened if you were using recurring creatures anyway.
It fits well into the curve but needs a different crrature mix. I hope it is not more useful for Jund and BUG. As to how many you could play with Lilliana of the Veil, it would seem hard to play all 8, but maybe some kind of build could support it. Maybe with a bunch of Pack Rats, since as Hardcore points out, they are copies, not tokens.

[zebhillard]

I've done some swaps, some tinkering, and some fidgeting with numbers over the last week. My only test games have been against Dragon Stompy, Death & Taxes, and Reanimator, but post board they've all ended up fairly positive. With that said, here's the new list of what I'm running.

4 Smallpox
4 Dark Ritual
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
3 Sinkhole
1 Spinning Darkness
2 Infernal Tutor
2 Nether Void
1 The Abyss
1 Night of Soul’s Betrayal

1 Nether Spirit
4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Cursed Scroll

4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 Swamp

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Plague
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 The Abyss
1 Powder Keg
1 Gloom

As for the new Liliana, she's going to definitely be in my Tiny Leaders deck, at the front. But, as for traditional resource denial Pox, my thoughts echo beez. There aren't just enough creatures to trigger her reliably, or to get use out of her other two Planeswalker powers, to justify her inclusion over other cards in the deck.

[OmniStrata]

Actually, some discussion on the page brought me to think about it not just creatures, but creature spells. Mesmeric Fiend, Brain Maggots, Viscera Seer (note Liliana's Emblem would pretty much be a tutor for infinity), etc. Any of the cheaper threats that generate some form of card advantage. Creatures that get bigger with counters, like Carrion Feeder or Bloodthrone vampire, what not.

I do get the paradox, Pox vs. many creatures. On the other hand, if you're running 'creature spells', you probably won't need as many sorceries. The goal ultimately is to stall till Liliana ultimate goes off, and this Liliana's ultimate goes off much faster than Chain Veil's ultimate. Then you can just Seer to your kill, which is one of the Carrion Feeders or something and then swing for death.

Ultimately, I'll need to test this myself, but the cards around the mechanic are quite cheap on the wallet and the mana, but I do like me some card advantage :wink:

The -x/-x ability can work for long game if you want to try winning spectacularly, like with a Grave Titan, lolz.

I think my favorite reason to run this Liliana is the immunity to Leyline of Sanctity. My current build runs into trouble if that is on the field, but Underworld Dreams and the Rack usually manage to strangle out a win.

[beez]

Thinking outside the box with utility crratures like that would probably be key to utilizing the new Lilly the best.

[Hardcore]

Any advice on Sideboard strategy? If i play Leyline of the Void vs a deck that play DtT, should i replace game two?

[zebhillard]

I suppose it would depend on how good your Game 1 is, honestly. If it goes well and you don't need to slot out the Leyline's for any other hate, I couldn't see a reason to not pull them out.

[Hardcore]

Yeah, i was thinking about outthinking the opponent. Should i play LotV game one they may board out their Dig through Time for game two. Or not.

[OmniStrata]

Any advice on Sideboard strategy? If i play Leyline of the Void vs a deck that play DtT, should i replace game two?

Delve is, fall all intents and purposes, a graveyard mechanic that can't be responded to, so your ultimate choice to keep Leyline of the Void (my favorite leyline :cool:) is a sound one. They have to bounce/kill the Leyline.

"Strength lies in action. Let the weak react to me!" - Kahmahl, Pit Fighter

It's better to force the opponent on the defensive with your cards, then to react and 'hope' you get the card you need to get out of a sticky situation. In the past, I used to run Ratchet Bombs or Plague Boiler or other nukes to deal with problems like Leyline of Sanctity, Jace, or enemy Pithing Needles. Now I just drop a Sideboarded Rack, or Underworld Dreams and say "phark your defenses". :wink:

[Hardcore]

Oh, yes! I wholeheartedly agree to that. Offence is the best defence.While LotV, Engineered plague and Chalice are defence cards the very act of running them in main deck is aggressive.

However, I wonder if it pays to try outsmart my opponents at Sideboard. Will he replace his DtT, or board in enchantment removal?
IF he replace them then my LotV are dead cards.
IF not, but i do, my replacement cards need be equally good in my deck as LotV.

[OmniStrata]

Oh, yes! I wholeheartedly agree to that. Offence is the best defence.While LotV, Engineered plague and Chalice are defence cards the very act of running them in main deck is aggressive.

However, I wonder if it pays to try outsmart my opponents at Sideboard. Will he replace his DtT, or board in enchantment removal?
IF he replace them then my LotV are dead cards.
IF not, but i do, my replacement cards need be equally good in my deck as LotV.

My magic coach and friend mentioned this strategy. If you win your game one, fake-shuffle your sideboard into your deck and remove it for game 2. This way, you can hide your board, should you win, and you can react to their SB game 3 if you get stomped. It prevents 'bad guessing' I think. Like, I may guess that my foe isn't playing a combo deck so I side out my Dark Rituals, but then game 2, I get stomped in 3 turns due to a 'transformational' sideboard. It's happened before, but not like that example.

Technically, nothing is as good as LotV at what it does, deny GY strategies. But, since Delve is a payment option, Trinisphere and Sphere of Resistance and Nether Void can slow it down drastically.

[Ralf]

My inspiration comes from a Semi-God of Revenge deck someone recently described on MTG Salvation, IIRC. It also ran an Infernal Contract + Soul Spike combo. Very interesting, but I am not sure about how well that works agains aggressive decks. The God was obviously to expensive, but I found the Avatar could have place in a deck that actually is built for discard.

Actually I think the inspiration comes from the development section of the Source as I was the one who suggested first such deck.

I've done a lot of testing and so far the deck is very promising.

Here is where I am at the moment:


6 Swamp
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Lake of the Dead
2 Bojuka Bog
4 Cabal Pit
4 Wasteland

3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Demigod of Revenge

4 Liliana of the Veil

2 The Rack

3 Dark Ritual
2 Geth's Verdict
4 Soul Spike

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Infernal Contract


Sideboard

2 Phyrexian revoker
2 Braids, Cabal Minion
2 Engineered Plague
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Oppression
1 Night of Souls' betrayal
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Pack Rat

I am still in between 4/5 fetchs and 3 or 4 dark ritual.
22 or 23 lands or another black card for soul spike; that's the main dilemma. If you wanna stretch it, play 22. If you wanna play it safe, 23 is a good number.
I guess the lake could be considered as your DR n°4.

This is rather a Mono Black Control deck than a Pox one.
Nonetheless, you'll get to play the attrition war.

For now results are quite astonishing. Infernal contract is a hell of a card and is at his best when you are below 10 life.
I can't recall the number of games where your opponent thinks he will get you and you draw 4 cards @ 2 or 4 life to jump back out of bolt range thanks to soul spike.

There are only 8 kills in the MD which is low & enough most of the time.
Jace is no longer an issue as you have multiple ways to deal with him (Soul spike, Rack, Demigod).
Control decks tends to die to the Rack.
Midrange decks tends to die to the Demigod.
Tempo decks are usually a piece of cake.

If anyone is tempted to get some fresh air, try it. There are a lot of synergies and tricks we don't see without practicing the deck.

And maybe we can even make it better !

Happy testing.

[Amunshax]

http://mythicspoiler.com/dtk/cards/pitilesshorde.html

this would fit pretty good in Pox, if u want to play Creatures...

[Hardcore]

@Ralf, is fetchlands neccessary?

[Ralf]

@Ralf, is fetchlands neccessary?

Well, actually, they are.

1) They let you "adjust" your life pool for infernal contract (like "cabal pit")
2) Reaching your "threshold" could be a matter of life or death (for cabal pit)
3) Considering that you could be "on par" with other attrition based deck, it is also important to "draw" a bit less "lands" when using infernal contract.
The difference could be minor but even if it nets you just another active card instead of another swamp, it is huge. Nothing is worse than dying because your infernal contract give you too many lands instead of active cards.

Your life pool must be used as a "ressource" once you get use to it.
You don't have to wait to play "infernal contract". Sometimes, I go for it as soon as I can. It is extremely dependent of the matchup you are facing, though.

The list I shared is, by no means, a finished one. I'm pretty sure MD can still be adjusted (a 5th draw spell and another wincon for example are a few things I would want to include). Sideboard could certainly be improved by a very large margin.

[OmniStrata]

No smallpox, no Pox, draw more cards, leave your enemy's resources alone? Trade 1 for 1? That's not Pox anymore... :mad: Demigod of Revenge? No Reanimation with low CMC? Yeah, that's mono-black control, that's not Pox.

Mono-black control is fine, but we're about ripping you down to nothing using the most efficent cards. Smallpox is that card. Heck, in my opinion, removing big Pox completely is the edge of sanity. We don't need card draw when we can cast 1 spell to wreck 3 of your cards. We don't care about our cards since we're designed to function under Pox winter.

You're not playing attrition when your threats are 5/4 flyers.
"Attrition - the military strategy of wearing down the enemy by continual losses in personnel and matériel". This MBC is built to do a little bit of disruption and then win before you can come back. Nukes aren't used for attrition.

That being said, it's a good looking deck, but in the wrong thread. :smile:

As for Pox itself, the 'original' super LD form of Pox runs Vindicate. I'll be putting together a slightly faster LD Pox using cheap 'hard to kill' threats and speed up my games a bit. The LD philosphy that works efficiently is to play threats in turns 1 or 2, and then nuke lands for the rest of the game. If you wreck lands first then play threats, your enemy may recover their game since you weren't damaging them early. A more tempo oriented Pox Winter is coming, at least for me, along with use of that new Liliana healer. :eek:

[Ralf]

You're not playing attrition when your threats are 5/4 flyers.
"Attrition - the military strategy of wearing down the enemy by continual losses in personnel and matériel". This MBC is built to do a little bit of disruption and then win before you can come back. Nukes aren't used for attrition.

That being said, it's a good looking deck, but in the wrong thread. :smile:


Actually, I already said it was Mono Black Control and not Pox.
I have posted in the Development section but since Hardcore mentioned it, I made a quick post here.
After all we also are a mono black control deck !!! Don't hate us. :smile:

But I disagree. There is a lot of attrition stuff in there but not as much as in a traditional Pox list.
Pox and Smallpox were just replaced by draw cards or virtual card advantages.
The core is nearly the same. Kill cons are just different. Yet the goal is the same:
- attack your enemy by every possible angles
- deplete their hands
- control the board
- play the top deck mode
- find a kill (be it a slow or a quick one)

I played Pox during a very long time. Among the thousand games I played with it, only one thing bothered me:
The false synergy between Liliana & SmallPox/Pox.

I can't recall how many games where I was stuck @ 2 swamps and 2 cards in hand being unable to play my Pox or Smallpox because discarding Lili away was too detrimental for the game course. Or the other way round, I just played a lili and can't use the +1 because I don't want to discard the Pox or the Smallpox.
Also, I can't recall how many games liliana's ultimate was "less powerful" than it could be if I were not playing Pox/Smallpox.

Yeah. I'm talking about synergy.

In this mono black control shell, Liliana is nearly at her best:
1) Your opponent is still navigating under limited resources (through discard/wasteland)
2) Lili's ultimate will, on average, always catch more permanents than in a traditional Pox list BECAUSE there is no POX in !
3) Infernal contract also creates asymmetry with lili's first ability as there is no other strongest draw cards in legacy for its mana cost (save Meditate)

Land denial & soft lock is nice and all. Beating blue decks because I can almost match their draws is a completely different story and feeling.
F. Yeah !

[OmniStrata]

I played Pox during a very long time. Among the thousand games I played with it, only one thing bothered me:
The false synergy between Liliana & SmallPox/Pox.

I can't recall how many games where I was stuck @ 2 swamps and 2 cards in hand being unable to play my Pox or Smallpox because discarding Lili away was too detrimental for the game course. Or the other way round, I just played a lili and can't use the +1 because I don't want to discard the Pox or the Smallpox.
Also, I can't recall how many games liliana's ultimate was "less powerful" than it could be if I were not playing Pox/Smallpox.

Yeah. I'm talking about synergy.

In this mono black control shell, Liliana is nearly at her best:
1) Your opponent is still navigating under limited resources (through discard/wasteland)
2) Lili's ultimate will, on average, always catch more permanents than in a traditional Pox list BECAUSE there is no POX in !
3) Infernal contract also creates asymmetry with lili's first ability as there is no other strongest draw cards in legacy for its mana cost (save Meditate)

Land denial & soft lock is nice and all. Beating blue decks because I can almost match their draws is a completely different story and feeling.
F. Yeah !

Actually, the reason you run 4 smallpox and pox and Lilianas is so that you can afford to discard them. I've not run into a situation where I couldn't use her +1 or -2 the moment Liliana of the Veil hit the field. Truth be told, if my enemy has 3 creatures on the field, there's really nothing you can do, but if your foe has 1 threat, I'll just -2 and make them sac and just save the Smallpox next turn 'just in case'. If you have to cast Smallpox on turn 2 and discard Liliana, I wonder what the heck is up with the rest of your hand.

Liliana of the Veil does what Pox does. Discard, Sacrifice, and LD (with ultimate). Pox needs to disrupt 'now' not later, so if you have to chuck a Liliana to your Smallpox to stop their Phyrexian Dreadnought cause you're stuck at 2 lands, then do it. Saving cards for later and drawing more cards to cast them later is for traditional control.

Pox isn't traditional and the challenge is making it work, not making it traditional. :cool: Need that crazy bum rush forward mentality at times, hence why we play Pox. Beating blue decks by almost matching their draws make me think you should just play a blue deck. I beat blue decks because they use Force of Will vs. Hymn to Tourach. Black's card advantage is much cheaper than blue if you consider the mana.

My meta has burn and an Infernal Tutor is auto lose for me vs. them :(

[Ralf]

Pox isn't traditional and the challenge is making it work, not making it traditional. :cool: Need that crazy bum rush forward mentality at times, hence why we play Pox. Beating blue decks by almost matching their draws make me think you should just play a blue deck. I beat blue decks because they use Force of Will vs. Hymn to Tourach. Black's card advantage is much cheaper than blue if you consider the mana.

My meta has burn and an Infernal Tutor is auto lose for me vs. them :(

I am not trying to convince anyone that MBC > Pox or the other way round.
I just try to improve mono black strategy as a whole.
Thus, I am just sharing and proposing new ideas with a good amount of play testing.

Pox/Smallpox are "good" cards in the right MU.
Against creatureless decks, they are "poor" because you don't get to take advantage of the asymmetric effect they provide (save Pox under some circumstances).

I do feel that Mono Black main deck should be filled with "good" cards in every matchup. Not conditional ones because we are already fighting hard against variance.

I think you meant 'Infernal Contract' not 'Infernal Tutor'. And you could be very surprised against burn with such a deck. Soul spike is a hell of a card and you lose half your life total (rounded up) AFTER drawing 4 cards. That makes the whole difference.

@ thread: Happy poxing, guys ! Wish you luck and if someone is interested in MBC, PM me !!!

Cheers,

[Hardcore]

Yeah, cards that are relevant against most decks, most of the time, are preferable. Regretably they are blue.

[zebhillard]

Played against a very stubborn D&T guy tonight who only finally scooped when my board was 6 lands, 2 Cursed Scrolls, Liliana at 4 (after an ultimate), Gloom, Nether Void, Night of Souls Betrayal, Engineered Plague on Cats, and Pithing Needle on Aether Vial.

It was a slog, to be sure.

But a fun slog...for me.

[OmniStrata]

Played against a very stubborn D&T guy tonight who only finally scooped when my board was 6 lands, 2 Cursed Scrolls, Liliana at 4 (after an ultimate), Gloom, Nether Void, Night of Souls Betrayal, Engineered Plague on Cats, and Pithing Needle on Aether Vial.

It was a slog, to be sure.

But a fun slog...for me.

When Pox frustration causes your foe to scoop, ah da awesomez. Overkill and well done. ^_^

@Ralf. Yep, I meant Infernal Contract. Tutor is the more commonly known Infernal 'card' (doh facepalm*). Pox and Smallpox still work against creatureless strategies. Heck, they are even better since you can just cast them faster and you don't have to worry about your enemy saving their best creature. Creatureless decks however are few and far between in the Legacy meta from what I can tell. If the Decks to Beat are any indication, Pox will never be 'shut out' when competing in a large tournament. How many creatureless decks are viable that people can trust? Only ANT in the current DtB list can really be called 'creatureless'. Combo lands tries to murder you with a single 20/20 flier. Times like that make you want to bring in that Diabolic Edict eh? ^_^

Remember everyone, Pox is the 'legal' form of Balance in Legacy. Balance 2.0 I believe it's called. I think the hardest thing for this deck to truely overcome is the creature hurdle. For us Pox traditionalists who run 4 Innocent Blood and 1-3 copies of the Big Pox, our win condition selection has to get trimmed down quite a bit. No surprise that practically all the tournament winning Pox decks pack 4 Mishra's Factories and 2-3 Cursed Scrolls. It's a strong cage, but it's proven to protect us at the same time it limits our builds.

What's all this 'blue draw' people are talking about? The only workable 'hard draw' blue cards in legacy I'm aware of are Jace TMS and Dig Through Time. Are people running into Concentrate and Divinations?

[Hardcore]

I like to build around chalice. The faster the format gets the more it hurts. The question is if it is worth play it and shut myself out from 1cc spells? Black has lots of those but i think they are inferior to blue.
Still, inferior or not, the 1cc spells allow some lines of deck construction that can't be replicated by Möre expensive cards.

[zebhillard]

Its card selection more than draw. Brainstorm, Ponder, Serum Visions, Dig, Jace, etc. Piling those up turn after turn leads to some decent hand sculpting if you don't have enough disruption.

[OmniStrata]

Its card selection more than draw. Brainstorm, Ponder, Serum Visions, Dig, Jace, etc. Piling those up turn after turn leads to some decent hand sculpting if you don't have enough disruption.

Card selection I don't really care about. Since it's not real card advantage. Pox without 'enough disruption' is blasphemy! :laugh: I thought people were actually drawing 2-3 cards at the cost of 1. If you do the math, you have to Brainstorm, Ponder, etc. 3 times to get back what was lost to a Smallpox. Dig Through Time gives you 2 cards you didn't have to wait 7 turns for. That's scary. And we all know Jace is free BS.

@Hardcore's Chalice of the Void. For my play group, heavy on creatures, not having access to Dark Ritual and Innocent Blood and Inquisition of Kozilek is too backbreaking for me. Pox Stompy Chalice definitely has promise since all the favorite removal cost 1 cmc and far fewer people I know run things like Smother and Terminate and Diabolic Edict. Your games however, I'm guessing get rough if you don't start with a Chalice in hand. Top decking a Chalice on turn 6 however is probably still good since you shut off any future brainstorms they may have.

[Hardcore]

I am thinking cheap removal = Snuff out, rather than IB if running chalice. Or Contagion.
Ideally i should not have to make any compromises for running chalice, but it does make discard seem unneccessary.

[OmniStrata]

I am thinking cheap removal = Snuff out, rather than IB if running chalice. Or Contagion.
Ideally i should not have to make any compromises for running chalice, but it does make discard seem unneccessary.

I think that with Chalice, your removal at that point would be Smother and Diabolic Edict. Snuff seems like a really hefty price and Contagion, despite being a 2 for 1, is like a black themed Force of Will. The card disadvantage seems too steep. If you're running 4 big poxes, the life loss and land nuking is to the extreme. Not that I don't mind that but I suppose they're the best replacements for Dark Rituals.

At least as a Chalice based deck, that list you posted has some great damage win condtions. Pox stompy? :eek:

[Hardcore]

Yeah, it is the quest for better win cons that can end the game faster:/ Some decks, like miracles, are best to just run over as fast as possible.
Against others it wouldn't hurt to have bigger dudes, like when resolving Tombstalker vs BG decks.
I have started to assemble a second pox deck that will be control Pox. Or perhaps Prison pox with Ankh of Mishra etc. Would be fun to experiment with that!

[zebhillard]

Well, time to rework the deck and free up another single slot, my Chains of OH LORD THATS A LOT OF TEXT WHAT DOES IT TO ANYWAY just shipped out. Decisions, decisions.

[Charon666]

I attended another small tournament this Sunday. We were only 49 players this time, and I made 13th [Edit: 15th, my bad] place with a record of 3-2-1.

Sorcery (20)
1x Cruel Tutor
3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
1x Thoughtseize

Instant (3)
3x Dark Ritual

Planeswalker (4)
4x Liliana of the Veil

Land (24)
1x Cabal Pit
4x Marsh Flats
4x Mishra's Factory
6x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Enchantment (1)
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal

Creature (1)
1x Nether Spirit

Artifact (7)
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Cursed Scroll
1x Haunted Plate Mail
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard (15)
3x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle
3x Sphere of Resistance
2x Toxic Deluge



Match 1: Oops! All spells. 2 - 1
Game 1:
He killed me before I even got to my turn 1. At least the deck is nice enough to show its full list, when going off. No LED, and Alchemist's Apprentice as the card draw for the win with Laboratory Maniac

-4 Sinkhole, -3 SDT, -1 Crucible of Worlds, -2 Innocent Blood, +4 Extirpate, +3 Pithing Needle, +3 Sphere of Resistance

Game 2:
I keep a hand with Extirpate. Drop a land, say go. He tries to go off unprotected and runs into Extirpate, exiling Narcomoeba. He scoops.

Game 3:
I keep a hand with Pithing Needle, Extirpate and 2 IoK. He mulliganed to 6 I think, and didn't go off turn 1. I IoK him and see 2 Lotus Petal, a Cabal Ritual, Cabal Therapy and I think that white Angel they play and a Narcomoeba. I take a Petal. He then still needs a mana and one of his 8 mill creatures to go off. Turn 2 and 3 I drop another IoK (taking the second Petal. He somehow didn't play it on his turn), a Thoughtseize and a Pithing Needle naming Alchemist's Apprentice. He doesn't play anything and starts discarding while a Factory goes to work on his life total. Not much happening from there.

1 - 0

Match 2: White Weenie with lots of Equipment. 2 - 0
Can't remember much of this Match. My opponent was a flooded both matches, and he never could keep a creature in play. I think he played about 5 creatures in both games.. with a deck that runs 21 creatures. Bad luck I'd say.

2 - 0

Match 3: DnT 1 - 1 - 1
Game 1:
Game 1 played out like most pre board games against DnT for me. He is on the play and drops a Vial turn 1. Not much to do here, I am at 0 6 or 7 turns later.
-3 Hymn to Tourach, -3 IoK, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Dark Ritual, +2 Toxic Deluge, +3 Pithing Needle, +3 Ensnaring Bridge

Game 2:
I kept a somewhat greedy hand. Wasteland and Factory, Pithing Needle, SDT, Liliana, Innocent Blood and Smallpox it was (I think). He drops a white Leyline turn 0. I played Wasteland into SDT, he dropped Vial again. In my upkeep I looked at the top 3 and found 2 Swamps. I needle his Vial. He drops a Stoneforge Mythic and finds a Jitte. I find another Needle for the Jitte. He lands a Batterskull that hits me two times, bringing me down to 6 and him up to 28. From there on I could stablize and start to eat his life total with a Nether Spirit, Factory and Cursed Scroll. Well... then we remembered his Leyline a turn later. Be both got a warning for game rule violation. I'm quite unfocused at this time and drop a Ensnaring Bridge, that leads to another warning for me. I attack with Factory and Netherspirit with one card in my hand. I could have drawn a card with top, to attack anyway, but I didn't do it. I manage to get him to 0 anyway. We have 3 minutes on the clock left and agree to draw the 3rd game.

2 - 0 - 1

Match 4: UWR Delver 0 - 1 - 1
Game 1:
Longest game 1 ever, for both of us. Smallpox, Wasteland and Lili do their thing, and I manage to take him down to 1 life. He dropped an early Jitte, that ended up killing me. He somehow managed to get a Stoneforge Mythic to stick and started beating me with jitte. I don't really know what I did wrong, but it must have been my fault. I had Nether Spirit, Factory, Crucible and Cursed Scroll. I know I forgot 1 or 2 Nether Spirit triggers, but I can't explain why I couldn't (didn't) kill the Stoneforge before he got counters with Jitte.

-3 Dark Ritual, -1 SDT, +4 Extirpate
Game 2:
I keep a hand with Wasteland, 2 Extirpate and more good stuff, and hope for him to drop a Tundra. I drop a Swamp and say go. He drops fetch, gets Tundra and plays Ponder. I waste his Tundra, and extirpate it. He is screwed. His had ins FoW, 2 Daze, Brainstorm, Stoneforge and Delver. I love this move, and he didn't seem to know this was possible Grin
From there on it would have been easy to win, but I didn't have the time. Factory manages to beat him down to 15, and thats it :/ If I had only played better game 1. When I managed to lock my opponent, and proceed to widdle down his life, I somehow go into autopilot mode, and I guess thats what cost me this match.

2 - 1 - 1

Match 5: Shardless BUG 0 - 2
Game 1:
Ouch. He generated so much card advantage with 2 Shardless and 2 Ancestral Visions and I just die.

-3 Dark Ritual, -3 Hymn to Tourach, -2 I forgot. +3 Sphere of Resistance, +2 Toxic Deluge, +3 Ensnaring Bridge
Game 2:
I kept a hand with Toxic Deluge, Sphere of Resistance, 2 Wastelands and SDT.
The game was over fast. He drops a turn 2 Goyf and I have to kill it using Toxic Deluge. The Sphere of Resistance keeps his Agent somewhat in check, but also blocks me from playing NoSB and Haunted Plate Mail. And just to add insult to injury, I fail to find any more removal. That was depressing.

2 - 2 - 1

Match 6: Mono U StifleNought
Game 1:
I played against this guy at the last event when he was running a similar UB list. He switched to Mono U but still plays like a combo deck, using Lotus Petals to drop a turn 1 Dreadnought. The only thing I'm afraid of is his Vision Charms, as it prevents me from killing a Nought for 1 turn.
I kept an ok hand for this matchup and had plenty of time. He brainstorms and ponders for the first 3 turns. When I found a 1cc discard I saw this hand: Stifle, Stifle, Stifle, Stifle, Trickbind, Vision Charm. I kill him with factory and Haunted Plate Mail.

-1 SDT, -4 Sinkhole, -1 Crucible, +3 Sphere of Resistance, +3 Ensnaring Bridge

Game 2:
I kept another solid hand with Sphere of Resistance,2x Inquisition of Kozilek, Hymn to Tourach, Innocent Blood 2 black producing lands.
He Ponders on his first turn, and I IoK him. He has Stifle, Misdirection, Brainstorm, some counter magic and mana. I need to play around his counters to get my sphere to stick, and I also can't play Hymn, because he'll just misdirect it to me. Next turn I IoK him again, which he then Misdirects. I show my hand, and discard one of my two Hymn to Tourach. I manage to drop my Sphere of Resistance. It takes him a while to get to 4 mana, to even be able to cast Nought/Stifle, and then he can't find his combo. he dies to factory beatdown.

3 - 2 - 1

First tournament where I could test Haunted Plate Mail and Cruel Tutor. HPM performed well, when I had it. Cruel Tutor stuck in my hand most of the time. Once I did use it, but whatever I was looking for wasn't very important. I'm thinking about running 3 Leyline of the Void and a Helm of Obedience instead of Extirpate. I feel Leyline does more in matchups that use the graveyard, and Helm can be used in conjuction as alternative win condition, or even as a suprise win against decks that play RiP. Extirpate is nice against 3 color decks, but that matchup is already in our favor. I'm still wanting something to close out games faster when my opponent is on the ground. I feel I could have played better. I think my sideboarding is good, and the deck plays well, but running on autopilot when I'm trying to finish the game. It seldomly screwes me over since I included SDT.

[Hardcore]

Well, time to rework the deck and free up another single slot, my Chains of OH LORD THATS A LOT OF TEXT WHAT DOES IT TO ANYWAY just shipped out. Decisions, decisions.
I feel so sorry for you. :tongue:

[zebhillard]

I feel so sorry for you. :tongue:

Of all the problems to have, right?

It is a little annoying though, because I'm currently really in favor of how the deck is running (despite a 2-2 last week, I was playing on the borderline of heading to the emergency room and lost to bad matches anyway) and I'm not quite certain what to drop so I can slot the Chains into the 75.

[Hardcore]

Well, you can run 76 cards while figuring it out.

[OmniStrata]

Yeah, it is the quest for better win cons that can end the game faster:/ Some decks, like miracles, are best to just run over as fast as possible.
Against others it wouldn't hurt to have bigger dudes, like when resolving Tombstalker vs BG decks.
I have started to assemble a second pox deck that will be control Pox. Or perhaps Prison pox with Ankh of Mishra etc. Would be fun to experiment with that!

It's actually very difficult to run Ankh as a win con. I fell into the trap of "hey, 5 life for your fetchland? Be my guest". And then for some stupid reason, overloading on LD meant I never could draw it. Bad luck i guess? not sure. I found it a nuisance to run win cons based on an enemy's decisions. They'll obviously stall for the better if they're near death, like holding cards for The Rack or not playing lands once they hit their 3rd land drop vs. Ankh. Dingus Egg would be epic if I could pay 3 mana for it instead of 4. :cry:

[Hardcore]

Yeah, If there was a SFM for artifacts maybe...
Still, I frustrated a zoo player when running a proxy deck a few years ago.
Regrettably I can't remember the deck list.:frown:

[OmniStrata]

Tutoring isn't necessary when stalling is what Pox should do best. I'm guessing it ran 4 Ankhs, 4 Smallpox, 4 Pox, and maybe 4 Rancid Earths? Desolation (lol)?

[Hardcore]

Since it was proxy probably wasteland, maybe sinkhole. Anyway I doubt it is necessary to run any additional LD. While it is disruption I figure it would be an adjunct much like The Rack.

[Hardcore]

4 bloodghast
1 netherspirit

4 ankh of mishra
4 innocent blood
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 pox
4 smallpox
4 hymn to tourach
4 Liliana of the veil

4 dark ritual
18 swamp
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3 wasteland


This is how it would look using my resources.

[zebhillard]

Well, you can run 76 cards while figuring it out.

I'm thinking about cutting a Scroll from the main since I've added the tutors to fit it in. Not sure if that's trimming it down to far or not, though.

[Hardcore]

Keep the scroll and cut the tutors. People seems to find those underwhelming.

[sampi]

What do you guys think of this list as a starting point in pox?

4 Bloodghast
3 Tombstalker

4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymm to Tourach
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cursed Scroll
1 Empty Slot

21 Swamp

My concerns with this list is Delve and Bloodghast don't have great synergy. And I think to make bloodghast better I need to add fetchlands and possibly crucible/Mox Diamond/Wasteland

[zebhillard]

What do you guys think of this list as a starting point in pox?

I would go -7 Swamp, +4 Fetchland (Minimum), +3 Urborg. I would also cut Big Pox -3 for +4 Inquisition of Kozilek (filling your empty slot) and -4 Duress for +4 Funeral Charm.

[Chatto]

On Salvation people were talking about Myth Realized as part of a new strategy in 'Holy Pox' (Bw Pox) or even three-coloured Pox. Opinions?

[Hardcore]

What do you guys think of this list as a starting point in pox?

4 Bloodghast
3 Tombstalker

4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymm to Tourach
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cursed Scroll
1 Empty Slot

21 Swamp

My concerns with this list is Delve and Bloodghast don't have great synergy. And I think to make bloodghast better I need to add fetchlands and possibly crucible/Mox Diamond/Wasteland

I have run Tombstalkers but moved away from them.
Lot of effort to get them in play, and then they get usually get sworded.

To play Bloodghast you do not need fetchlands.

[OmniStrata]

What do you guys think of this list as a starting point in pox?

4 Bloodghast
3 Tombstalker

4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymm to Tourach
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cursed Scroll
1 Empty Slot

21 Swamp

My concerns with this list is Delve and Bloodghast don't have great synergy. And I think to make bloodghast better I need to add fetchlands and possibly crucible/Mox Diamond/Wasteland

Liliana of the Veil is the starting point for competitive Pox. I admit it's a shame but it's something I've come to accept. She feeds Tombstalker's Delve as well. 10 threats is a lot, but not 'too much' as you've got enough disruption. I'd drop 1 Cursed Scroll and squeeze in some Dakmor Salvage to keep those Bloodghasts rushing. Crucible is best used for Waste-locking your enemies, not bringing back a 'ghast. That and a Crucible 'forces' you to go land 'spells' hard. Mishra's becomes more Nether Spirits, Wasteland and Ghost Quarter becomes long game mana denial, and you get access to Cabal Pit spamming.

In the absence of Liliana, 4 big Pox will work. Great way to make games fast in a long tournament field. 2 Pox = 12 life lost. ^_^. That being said, you don't want to lose something like Tombstalker to it so I'd suggest more 'sac-immune' win conditions like Chimeric Idol (you don't use lands for spells so it'd be a great win con with no drawback). Or 2 Nether Spirits and 1 other disrupt spell like Contamination (lol).

[sampi]

Thank's for the feedback guys

I've changed the list a bit

-4 Duress
-3 Scroll Rack
-3 Tomstalker

+4 IoKozilek
+3 Funeral Charm
+4 Chimeric Idol (and filled Empty Slot)

[Hardcore]

if you run big Pox the you really should have the Rack in your deck. Good synergy with your spells, and it cannot be sworded.
Mishra's Factory is probably better than idol, btw.

[OmniStrata]

if you run big Pox the you really should have the Rack in your deck. Good synergy with your spells, and it cannot be sworded.
Mishra's Factory is probably better than idol, btw.

Depends on your disruption suite, but personally, I think Chimeric Idol has 4 advantages over the Factory. More damage, doesn't use a land drop, no mana needed to activate which lets you tap out for spells AND punch for 3, and can defend as a 3/3 instead of a 2/2 with summoning sickness.

However, with Mishra's being a land drop, it's really only needed if your spell count is insanely high. I'd run Chimeric Idol if I wanted to run 64-68 cards in my deck, lol. In a 4 Pox build, Chimeric hits REALLY hard. (4 turn clock after a Smallpox+Pox right? :eek:)

[Ralf]

if you run big Pox the you really should have the Rack in your deck. Good synergy with your spells, and it cannot be sworded.
Mishra's Factory is probably better than idol, btw.

+1.

The Rack is the one-of that should be in every Pox list, just because it also deals with opp's planeswalker without having to spend ressources (like cursed scroll) and it hits harder.

[OmniStrata]

+1.

The Rack is the one-of that should be in every Pox list, just because it also deals with opp's planeswalker without having to spend ressources (like cursed scroll) and it hits harder.

I keep it in my sideboard. It's great in that it's a hard target that doesn't target anything so it ignores Leyline of Sanctity [HATE THAT CARD] and Pithing Needles. I'm starting to consider an unknown gem called Skullcage. Not only is it a badass name, but it can fit in any Pox type be it discard or hand clogging Land Killer. Unlike Rack, it also dodges counterbalance very well.

In a situation where my Liliana is needled and my foe is hiding behind a Leyline of Sanctity [ouch], I think packing more Pox may be the answer.

[Hardcore]

wheel of torture is a card I have been considering myself. iron maiden would work with chalice in your deck.

[Chatto]

On Salvation people were talking about Myth Realized as part of a new strategy in 'Holy Pox' (Bw Pox) or even three-coloured Pox. Opinions?

Just throwing it back in, seems like a decent beatstick. Sure, it would ask for a different built, would like to hear some opinions.

[Ralf]

Just throwing it back in, seems like a decent beatstick. Sure, it would ask for a different built, would like to hear some opinions.

I played, long time ago, a BW Pox list but ended giving up because you are adding even more variance because of the mini color splash.

If I were to be playing BW Pox again, I would not consider "Myth Realized" as a decent beatstick because it is an awful topdeck. It can be great early on but that's all. To be honest, this card feels the same as "Waste Not" as it does not impact the game state the turn you land it but might be a little better as the game drags on (less conditional).

The main reasons for me to splash W are:
- Swords to plowshare
- Flagstones of Trokair
- Vindicate
- Sorin, lord of Innistrad
- Sideboard options when dealing with artifact & enchantment

But after considering all this, just play Pikula (Deadguy Ale).

[OmniStrata]

I played, long time ago, a BW Pox list but ended giving up because you are adding even more variance because of the mini color splash.

If I were to be playing BW Pox again, I would not consider "Myth Realized" as a decent beatstick because it is an awful topdeck. It can be great early on but that's all. To be honest, this card feels the same as "Waste Not" as it does not impact the game state the turn you land it but might be a little better as the game drags on (less conditional).

The main reasons for me to splash W are:
- Swords to plowshare
- Flagstones of Trokair
- Vindicate
- Sorin, lord of Innistrad
- Sideboard options when dealing with artifact & enchantment

But after considering all this, just play Pikula (Deadguy Ale).

Don't forget Ghostly Prison. With that, Sinkhole, Wasteland, Vindicate, Smallpox, and Pox, you've got yourself a 3 mana moat. Free Tombstalking for all!

[Hardcore]

Any ideas for red splash?

[OmniStrata]

Any ideas for red splash?

Red is known for 2 things. Direct Damage and Land Destruction. Blightning, Raze, Stone Rain, Pain/Suffering (lol), Lightning Bolt, Bump in the Night (:laugh:), Backlash, Dreadbore, Terminate, Fire Covenant, Fulminator Mage, Rakdos Charm, are probably good starts. You could use Veinfire Borderposts to recover from hard Poxing. Ultimately, since you're saccing lands and the like, I'd still say stick to mono-black. I'm posting my 'Ultimate' build in a minute.

[OmniStrata]

Liliana's Crucible of Souls! :cool:

Lands (24)
1 Maze of Ith (w00h00 price drops :laugh:)
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Cabal Pit
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
9 Swamps

Spells (28)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
1 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Engineered Plague
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal

Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

Win Conditions (4)
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Nether Spirit

Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
1 The Rack
1 Underworld Dreams
3 Engineered Plague
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Extirpate

I've tested in a casual meta full of home brew and super decks. MUC, Counterbalance, Show and Tell, Red Deck Wins (burning...), Elves, Affinity (budget), Merfolk, Slivers (Pauper, this thing is actually very scary), Thopter combo and derivatives, Dredge (hate it, a lot), Jund Junk, The Rock, and Threshold (both budget and fully powered)

It is a hybrid of Reid Duke's old and newer designs and this design (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25713-Primer-Deck-Pox&p=857545&viewfull=1#post857545)

Initially my friend and testing partner thought the Crucible was a weird choice considering it doesn't do anything compared to the rest of the deck but once he lost 4 basics to Ghost Quarters, top decking land became a problem. That and my Ghost Quarter games in response to his Sensei's top spins pissed him off :mad:.

My best game winning play was vs. his Counterbalance where he needed a Council's Judgement to stop my Underworld Dreams from killing him. He SDT and puts it on top and before his draw phase, I Extirpate some random card from his graveyard. My Underworld Dreams got him. :laugh:

I haven't tested this in my local tournament but I feel like this is probably the most dangerous form of Pox where even going long long game is bad due to Crucible's staying power. I'm tempted to squeeze a 2nd one in. Usually I always get to cast that 1-of Pox so the life smash doesn't make the game go to time. Ah, if I could sensibly run 62 cards! :frown:

Dropping a Maze of Ith when faced with a Show and Tell'ed Grizzlebrand was epic. If only I could figure out to get either a Nether Void (replace Crucible) or Tabernacle (replace swamp #9)...

[Hardcore]

Omnistrata, thanks for the help I sort of have a black core but the other card slots need good candidates.

Looking at your deck I think it is a new archetype.
That which make Pox a Pox is all the suicide-like destruction of both mine and thine stuff.
Liliana-control perhaps?

[beez]

I think to get a second Crucible in you could drop the second Nether Spirit.

[Hardcore]

A Sinkhole perhaps...

A Bojuka bog for gy hate could be an idea.

[talkingfawn]

I've been using this version for awhile, found it more successful and more fun than Prison Pox. From my local shop, I've found it whoops High Tide, Punishing Jund, Prison Pox, and rogue decks frequently. Has trouble beating Shardless. I'm going to start going to a weekly that has a more competitive metagame and am not looking forward to going against Miracles. Any advice for that matchup?

Deck: MonoBlack Pox (http://deckstats.net/decks/18413/189611-monoblack-pox-/en) http://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif

//Main
2 Sensei's Divining Top (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Sensei%27s+Divining+Top)
4 The Rack (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=The+Rack)

1 Nether Spirit (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Nether+Spirit)
4 Bloodghast (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Bloodghast)

1 Raven's Crime (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Raven%27s+Crime)
2 Thoughtseize (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Thoughtseize)
2 Inquisition of Kozilek (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Inquisition+of+Kozilek)
3 Pox (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Pox)
4 Smallpox (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Smallpox)
4 Hymn to Tourach (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Hymn+to+Tourach)

2 Entomb (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Entomb)
2 Disfigure (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Disfigure)
2 Smother (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Smother)

4 Liliana of the Veil (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Liliana+of+the+Veil)

1 Dakmor Salvage (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Dakmor+Salvage)
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Urborg%2C+Tomb+of+Yawgmoth)
4 Bloodstained Mire (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Bloodstained+Mire)
4 Mishra's Factory (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mishra%27s+Factory)
11 Swamp (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Swamp)

//Sideboard
3 Engineered Plague (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Engineered+Plague)
2 Ratchet Bomb (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ratchet+Bomb)
2 Null Rod (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Null+Rod)
3 Pithing Needle (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Pithing+Needle)
2 Extirpate (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Extirpate)
1 Toxic Deluge (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Toxic+Deluge)
1 Vengeful Pharaoh (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Vengeful+Pharaoh)
1 Necroplasm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Necroplasm)

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display deck statistics (http://deckstats.net/decks/18413/189611-monoblack-pox-)

[Hardcore]

I have been successful lately vs miracles.The trick is to keep up the pressure and Pox a lot (I run four).
Possibly my easiest match-up now.

[jredelstein]

Thanks!
I also don't own a Japanese Foil Nether Spirit so that is part of why I haven't run it yet :)

Finally got Japanese foil Nether Spirit and Sensei's Divining Top, added both to my G/B Loam Pox build, went 4-0 at local weekly Legacy event. Nether Spirit being able to block did save me one game, a one of SDT was amazing. Every time I drew it I loved it, between fetchlands, crop rotation, entomb, and loam there are a ton of ways to clear the top of the deck and get a fresh look.

[OmniStrata]

I've been using this version for awhile, found it more successful and more fun than Prison Pox. From my local shop, I've found it whoops High Tide, Punishing Jund, Prison Pox, and rogue decks frequently. Has trouble beating Shardless. I'm going to start going to a weekly that has a more competitive metagame and am not looking forward to going against Miracles. Any advice for that matchup?


Miracles is like the 'anti-Pox' since it's duty is to topdeck a Miracle as it were. It can function as hellbent well since it's strength is casting off the cheap top deck so cards like Hymn to Tourach and Inquisition of Kozilek lose value since they can't hit cards newly drawn. I'd recommend incorporating more land destruction effects. To that end, Hardcore has the right idea by casting Pox more often since it's the 3rd best LD spell in the universe :eek: with Smallpox in 2nd and Sinkhole as first. Wasteland isn't a spell and can't hit basics :tongue: but is an auto-include due to lack of Stifles vs. Miracles.

I deal with Miracles by using Underworld Dreams and Pithing Needles on Tops. Night of Souls' Betrayal, Engineered Plagues naming Soldier or Angels and even Ensnaring Bridge can stall long enough for the Black Enchantments to kill them off. You could also consider Gloom (laugh) or Dread of Night or Desolation if you can recover from it somehow.

Another angle is to wreck their top 3 cards somehow after they're done spinning the top. Ghost Quarter and Misinformation are probably your strongest plays to kill their Miracle activation attempt (Ghost Quarter most likely they'll just let the land get nuked and not replace it ^_^). Another one would be Extirpate. Dimir Machinations could make or break games methinks.