[Primer/Deck] Pox

[OmniStrata]

A Sinkhole perhaps...

A Bojuka bog for gy hate could be an idea.

It's not a new archetype. It's still got 13 symmetrical effects from Innocent Blood to Liliana herself. I used to think Bokuja Bog would work too but the B/G Poxers have better use of it with Crop Rotation at instant speed. My Dredge using Magic Coach also mentioned that Bokuja is best triggered in response to a Dread Return's announced target so Knight of the Reliquary also works. I'll accept game 1 GY losses for a super powered game 2 after boarding.

[talkingfawn]

Red is known for 2 things. Direct Damage and Land Destruction. Blightning, Raze, Stone Rain, Pain/Suffering (lol), Lightning Bolt, Bump in the Night (:laugh:), Backlash, Dreadbore, Terminate, Fire Covenant, Fulminator Mage, Rakdos Charm, are probably good starts. You could use Veinfire Borderposts to recover from hard Poxing. Ultimately, since you're saccing lands and the like, I'd still say stick to mono-black. I'm posting my 'Ultimate' build in a minute.

I’ve actually being thinking that I’d love to use Slaughter Games in the board. I can’t tell if it’s a decent idea, or just my love of cards like Extirpate, Cranial Extraction, and Sadistic Sacrament. I had never heard of Veinfire Borderposts before, but it seems like a great card for the deck, if one wanted to splash red.


I have been successful lately vs miracles.The trick is to keep up the pressure and Pox a lot (I run four).
Possibly my easiest match-up now.

My going to 4 Lilianas and 3 Pox was a recent thing. I’m going to do some testing, but if I find that it’s not as good, I’ll go back to 4 Pox. Thanks!


Miracles is like the 'anti-Pox' since it's duty is to topdeck a Miracle as it were. It can function as hellbent well since it's strength is casting off the cheap top deck so cards like Hymn to Tourach and Inquisition of Kozilek lose value since they can't hit cards newly drawn. I'd recommend incorporating more land destruction effects. To that end, Hardcore has the right idea by casting Pox more often since it's the 3rd best LD spell in the universe :eek: with Smallpox in 2nd and Sinkhole as first. Wasteland isn't a spell and can't hit basics :tongue: but is an auto-include due to lack of Stifles vs. Miracles.

I deal with Miracles by using Underworld Dreams and Pithing Needles on Tops. Night of Souls' Betrayal, Engineered Plagues naming Soldier or Angels and even Ensnaring Bridge can stall long enough for the Black Enchantments to kill them off. You could also consider Gloom (laugh) or Dread of Night or Desolation if you can recover from it somehow.
Another angle is to wreck their top 3 cards somehow after they're done spinning the top. Ghost Quarter and Misinformation are probably your strongest plays to kill their Miracle activation attempt (Ghost Quarter most likely they'll just let the land get nuked and not replace it ^_^). Another one would be Extirpate. Dimir Machinations could make or break games methinks.

Excellent information. Underworld Dreams and Ghost Quarter are definitely going to get some testing.

Does anyone have any advice on Extirpate or Surgical Extraction targets? Extirpate seems better, due to split second of course. I’m sure all I’m going to see in the yard for the first two or three turns against Miracles is Brainstorm. Maybe I’ll get lucky with an Inquisition or Thoughtseize and nab a Counterbalance or Terminus :cool:

[Hardcore]

Against miracles your artifacts are better. Counterbalance is not that big problem, but the Sensei's divining tops are.

[beez]

Finally got Japanese foil Nether Spirit and Sensei's Divining Top, added both to my G/B Loam Pox build, went 4-0 at local weekly Legacy event. Nether Spirit being able to block did save me one game, a one of SDT was amazing. Every time I drew it I loved it, between fetchlands, crop rotation, entomb, and loam there are a ton of ways to clear the top of the deck and get a fresh look.

I like Sylvan Library better than Top in most instances but I've started using it in Loam Pox too because of the very handy ability in Loam Pox to protect your Loam from anti-graveyard by Loaming in response with Top ability and putting Top on the deck. I like two in the G/B and one in Mono Black versions, though making space is always tough.

[beez]

Here is what I am testing now. I am also working on a more lands-y approach, but this one is more versitile and benefits from some of Joshua's insights I've seen in his builds.



Loam Pox

1 Nether Spirit
2 Bloodghast

1 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Liliana of the Veil

3 Life from the Loam
2 Entomb
3 Crop Rotation
4 Smallpox
3 Inquisition of Kozeliek
3 Thoughtseize
3 Innocent Blood
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Wasteland
1 Dark Depths
2 Thespian's Stage
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Urborg,Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Maze of Ith

Side
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Raven's Crime

[zebhillard]

So, the time has come where I can pick up another Legacy item to continue my ever-progressive quest to have Pox where it feels right in my hands. I've listed what I'm currently putting in sleeves below, but my big question is this...should I be more focused on a Tabernacle in the maindeck (removing one Swamp), or two more Chains for the sideboard (likely removing the Trinisphere and either Gloom or a Leyline)?

Main Deck:

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
12 Swamp

1 Nether Spirit
2 Cursed Scroll
1 The Rack

1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Nether Void
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Infernal Tutor
3 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 Toxic Deluge


Sideboard:

2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle
1 Trinisphere
2 The Abyss
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Engineered Plague
1 Gloom
4 Leyline of the Void

[Hardcore]

Chains Sound cool, but If you want to stop blue cantriping then chalice of the void works equally well for less money. So I guess my advice is go for tabernacle. Besides it's nice with nethervoid.

[zebhillard]

Chains Sound cool, but If you want to stop blue cantriping then chalice of the void works equally well for less money. So I guess my advice is go for tabernacle. Besides it's nice with nethervoid.

Unfortunately, Chalice also stops the decks 13 1-drops. Granted, some can come out, but being shut off of removal for the rest of the game hurts quite a bit.

[Hardcore]

True, true.

[zenitramleirdag]

Unfortunately, Chalice also stops the decks 13 1-drops. Granted, some can come out, but being shut off of removal for the rest of the game hurts quite a bit.
i agree..
chalice on 1 and a pithing needle either on factory or scroll is very back-breaking against a list that runs a lot of :b: cc spells..thats exactly what happened to me last sunday..with 4 innocent bloods, 4 IOKs, 3 cursed scrolls and 4 dark rituals, chalice on 1 really got me..
i missed ratchet bomb in that match-up..

[jredelstein]

I like Sylvan Library better than Top in most instances but I've started using it in Loam Pox too because of the very handy ability in Loam Pox to protect your Loam from anti-graveyard by Loaming in response with Top ability and putting Top on the deck. I like two in the G/B and one in Mono Black versions, though making space is always tough.

I have also tried Sylvan library and never liked it, I absolutely love the one Sensei's Top, I may have to try out a second. I have played barren moor is previous version for the loam protection as well.

I find that I play the deck with a lot less reliance on the graveyard now, in matches without obvious dead cards I tend to trim all the graveyard cards. Opponents tend to bring in graveyard hate against me and be very sad when the surgical my loam and don't find anymore.

Your list seems very familiar, Thoughtsieze over hymn or 4th inquisition or cabal therapy seem a bit weird but thoughtseize is a great card so I guess you can't go wrong. I've never been able to get myself to want the extra selection over saving 2 life. I also like bojuka bog main over maze of ith, but that is dependent on your meta(could also be karakas or cabal pit). Tabernacle is also amazing I run one main and one side but I know they are prohibitively expensive.

[beez]

I have a hard time with Barren Moor as Loam protection because it always feels a little clunky to have to hold a black open in a deck that needs double black and a green as well, and it itself is Loam dependant to have any use. Meanwhile, Top is pretty useful anyway and can protect your Loam at the cost of no mana whatsoever. It can be needled but they are probably more likely to name Liliana or maybe even Thespian Stage.
I find a loop with Loam/Stage/Glacial Chasm to be a bit unreliable to set up, in this version, but still have it as a break glass in emergency against some degenerate decks. This works better in a deck that has more Stages and Crop Rotations and a faster clock with more Dark Depths to end it while they are Chasmed out faster than the pinging away at 2 a turn while Chasm goes exponential.
I have also come to the same sideboarding strategy of going a little less graveyard beyond the first game. Unless there are obvious dead cards I tend to side out one Loam, one Entomb and one Crop Rotation (Loam allows you to use CR more aggressively, and Smallpox too for that matter) and side in three from the board something like +2 Deed and +1 Deluge vs heavy creatures and permanents. Combo tends to gravehate less in boarding and I have the Innocent Bloods to side out there first, and Raven's Crime is very good there.
In a grindy deck the two life of Thoughtseize does add up as do the one life of the six fetches, but Thoughtsieze is such the better card it is hard to try and not use it in Legacy. Catching a Jace and Batterskull and Force can be key. But I have taken out one Thoughtsieze and maindecked the Raven's Crime now as I can Crime fearlessly in game one other than the occasional Deathrite Shaman, and side it out with a Loam and Entomb against many decks for the following games.
Hymn has always been amazing, but in a deck that really needs the double black and a green and has a bunch of colorless lands and just 3 Urborg, I felt the need to reduce the need for so much double black. Also, pinpoint discard can help clear the way for a sure Marit Lage and more reliable naming with Therapy. I have the Therapies in the side as I hate blind naming with Therapy in game one against unknown opponents.

[zebhillard]

i agree..
chalice on 1 and a pithing needle either on factory or scroll is very back-breaking against a list that runs a lot of :b: cc spells..thats exactly what happened to me last sunday..with 4 innocent bloods, 4 IOKs, 3 cursed scrolls and 4 dark rituals, chalice on 1 really got me..
i missed ratchet bomb in that match-up..

The single Rack in my main is constantly flipped back and forth with a Powder Keg, I never can seem to make up my mind on which way I want to go with it.

[OmniStrata]

The single Rack in my main is constantly flipped back and forth with a Powder Keg, I never can seem to make up my mind on which way I want to go with it.

Anti-hate isn't as productive as alternate spells. Some cards are too strong to change out, like I wouldn't remove Liliana of the Veil to 'blank' their Pithing needle. Chalice at 1 means you're fighting a slow grinder too and your sideboard shouldn't really be filled with 1 cmc spells aside from your own Pithing Needles.

Chalice @ 1 means you won't need Dark Ritual to power out since your enemy isn't running a fast nutz draw deck. It also means Innocent Blood's speed isn't needed since they'll be playing creature threats later than 'the usual'. The people running 4 copies of the Big Pox probably scoff at Chalice @ 1. My sideboard is chock full of spells that cost more than 1 cmc aside from a single Rack and 2 Pithing Needles. I'm thinking of swapping that Rack for Skullcage now. I don't see Chalice in my meta often. My meta likes high speed.

I think the only deck proven to need an 'anti-sideboard' sideboard [:eyebrow:] is Dredge since it really only has 1 weakness. We attack from all directions so if 1 cmc spells are your problem, changing to slightly slower more effective spells could work. I got my Ratchet Bomb pithed on once. It wasn't cool... :frown:

[talkingfawn]

Forgive the newb-assed questions here, but when you would use Ratchet Bomb against Chalice (for 1, let's say)... would you charge it to 1, or 2?

Also, what are good sideboard cards versus Storm and Dredge? What Extirpate and Needle targets would I use for each? My own lack of experience playing against them tells me I'd side out all my creature hate, and put in Trinisphere for both. Reckon I'd needle Lion's Eye and Polluted Delta against Storm, but I have no idea what to Extirpate. Dredge I'd Extirpate Bridge from Below and Dread Return, and then Engineered Plague for Horrors and Illusions.

[Megadeus]

Forgive the newb-assed questions here, but when you would use Ratchet Bomb against Chalice (for 1, let's say)... would you charge it to 1, or 2?

Also, what are good sideboard cards versus Storm and Dredge? What Extirpate and Needle targets would I use for each? My own lack of experience playing against them tells me I'd side out all my creature hate, and put in Trinisphere for both. Reckon I'd needle Lion's Eye and Polluted Delta against Storm, but I have no idea what to Extirpate. Dredge I'd Extirpate Bridge from Below and Dread Return, and then Engineered Plague for Horrors and Illusions.

If you are attempting to destroy a chalice with the ratchet bomb (which I am assuming is your goal by the way you posed your question), then you want to blow up ratchet bomb with 0 (none) counters on it. When chalice is on the battlefield its Converted Mana Cost is 0. When it is being cast (where X=1) then the converted mana cost on the stack will be 2, but right when it hits the battlefield anything that would destroy or get rid of something that is CMC 0 will take care of chalice.

As for your second Question: Storm and dredge can be hurt by Extirpate. Needle against these decks is marginal as it cannot be used to stop mana abilities, which lion's eye diamond is. So naming LED with needle will do nothing. Against Dredge the best Needle target I can think of would probably be Cephallid Colosseum. I'm not sure how effective that would be against them however. Against Dredge Extirpate is kind of tricky and depends on the situation. You could always Extirpate their Narcomeoba after it hits the GY with the trigger on the stack, or hit their Ichorids possibly since you may have a tough time dealing with those yourself. I'd say hitting bridge is alright, but you can get rid of Bridge many ways such as animating your mishras factory and killing it via, smallpox, wastelanding it, or even innocent blood. Dread Return is an option if they end up on that plan, but I think in that case you would rather them flash back the Dread Return and simply extirpate their target.

[talkingfawn]

If you are attempting to destroy a chalice with the ratchet bomb (which I am assuming is your goal by the way you posed your question), then you want to blow up ratchet bomb with 0 (none) counters on it. When chalice is on the battlefield its Converted Mana Cost is 0. When it is being cast (where X=1) then the converted mana cost on the stack will be 2, but right when it hits the battlefield anything that would destroy or get rid of something that is CMC 0 will take care of chalice.

As for your second Question: Storm and dredge can be hurt by Extirpate. Needle against these decks is marginal as it cannot be used to stop mana abilities, which lion's eye diamond is. So naming LED with needle will do nothing. Against Dredge the best Needle target I can think of would probably be Cephallid Colosseum. I'm not sure how effective that would be against them however. Against Dredge Extirpate is kind of tricky and depends on the situation. You could always Extirpate their Narcomeoba after it hits the GY with the trigger on the stack, or hit their Ichorids possibly since you may have a tough time dealing with those yourself. I'd say hitting bridge is alright, but you can get rid of Bridge many ways such as animating your mishras factory and killing it via, smallpox, wastelanding it, or even innocent blood. Dread Return is an option if they end up on that plan, but I think in that case you would rather them flash back the Dread Return and simply extirpate their target.

Awesome, thanks for the effort of writing that up. I had totally forgotten about LED being a mana effect, and misremembered the second part of Bridge. Is Flame-Kin Zealot the better target than Dread Return? I'm guessing if I managed to Extirpate their Narco or Icorids that Dread would not be super useful, nor Cabal Therapy.

Edit: I also have a couple of Null Rods in my SB for Sensei's, which would take care of LED and Lotus Petal in Storm. Good idea, poor idea?

[Megadeus]

Awesome, thanks for the effort of writing that up. I had totally forgotten about LED being a mana effect, and misremembered the second part of Bridge. Is Flame-Kin Zealot the better target than Dread Return? I'm guessing if I managed to Extirpate their Narco or Icorids that Dread would not be super useful, nor Cabal Therapy.

Edit: I also have a couple of Null Rods in my SB for Sensei's, which would take care of LED and Lotus Petal in Storm. Good idea, poor idea?I'd say Null Rod is definitely good since you will be attacking their lands and cutting off the fast mana from petal and LED is excellent along with the fact that storm generally runs a top or two which are great against your strategy of discard. Shutting all of that down with a single card is powerful.

As for fighting dredge, I'd say that attacking their Narcs/Ichorids is best since you lack things like swords to kill Ichorids and your removal is highly useless against them. I think they are one of the better targets for your extirpate.

[OmniStrata]

Awesome, thanks for the effort of writing that up. I had totally forgotten about LED being a mana effect, and misremembered the second part of Bridge. Is Flame-Kin Zealot the better target than Dread Return? I'm guessing if I managed to Extirpate their Narco or Icorids that Dread would not be super useful, nor Cabal Therapy.

Edit: I also have a couple of Null Rods in my SB for Sensei's, which would take care of LED and Lotus Petal in Storm. Good idea, poor idea?

If you're truly terrified of Dredge (as a Pox player, I sure am), then your most powerful GY hate, undisputed in my coach's opinion, is Leyline of the Void. This means flashing back an Ancient Grudge isn't an option (unlike say, Tormod's crypt, which has to be popped immediately upon seeing that card). They need the removal in their opening hand, or they need to top deck it. What's more, an opening Leyline gives massive weight to your discard spells, should you be crazy enough to keep them.

When I fight Dredge, I run 4 Engineered Plagues, 3 Ensnaring Bridge, 3 Relic of Progenitus, 2 Extirpate, and 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal.

Suffice it to say, Liliana actually has to be boarded out, which makes me weep, but when the smoke clears, I almost never lose games 2 and 3. I find it best to Extirpate their non-creature disruption spells like Cabal Therapy or any of their flashbackers. My creature hate is so strong that it's the triggered abilities and the stack that I fear from them.

If you're running 12+ discard spells, Storm is a joke. Only bad draws should kill you at that point.

[talkingfawn]

advice

Excellent, thanks man. I'll stick to the plan for Dredge (I don't use Leyline in my SB), and concentrate on discard and go with Null Rod, Extirpate, and Trinisphere for Storm.

[jredelstein]

Excellent, thanks man. I'll stick to the plan for Dredge (I don't use Leyline in my SB), and concentrate on discard and go with Null Rod, Extirpate, and Trinisphere for Storm.

Trinispere is also great against dredge. I love Extirpate, I play G/B Pox with 2 Extirpate and 2 Bojuka Bog(1 main 1 side) and 3 crop rotations main. I have never had an issue with Dredge and can regularly win game 1.

The best way to know what to extirpate is to actually play games with dredge, sometimes it is right to attack their first dredgers sometimes it is better to go after ichords and narcomebas sometimes it is better to go after bridge from below and dread return. It is hard to give advice on which is better because it is situational but I would recommend sticking to the pairs above. for example going to ichords and bridges still leaves them dread return a fatty with narcomebas.

Also don't forget you can kill bridges with Mishra's factory and wasteland, and liliana can target yourself for the creature sac.

Another interesting interaction is smallpox, because of the wording/order on smallpox, if they discard bridge then sac a creature they get the token.

[Ancestral]

Trinispere is also great against dredge. I love Extirpate, I play G/B Pox with 2 Extirpate and 2 Bojuka Bog(1 main 1 side) and 3 crop rotations main. I have never had an issue with Dredge and can regularly win game 1.

The best way to know what to extirpate is to actually play games with dredge, sometimes it is right to attack their first dredgers sometimes it is better to go after ichords and narcomebas sometimes it is better to go after bridge from below and dread return. It is hard to give advice on which is better because it is situational but I would recommend sticking to the pairs above. for example going to ichords and bridges still leaves them dread return a fatty with narcomebas.

Also don't forget you can kill bridges with Mishra's factory and wasteland, and liliana can target yourself for the creature sac.

Another interesting interaction is smallpox, because of the wording/order on smallpox, if they discard bridge then sac a creature they get the token.

Can you post your gb pox?

[jredelstein]

Can you post your gb pox?

I tried sharing a pic of all the Japanese Foils but it wasn't working.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-8OCUAl6mxsVkZsTWVBSWMwRnkxcjFzNlRaR3VheDNtYTA0/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-8OCUAl6mxsVkZsTWVBSWMwRnkxcjFzNlRaR3VheDNtYTA0/view?usp=sharing

4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Entomb
3 Crop Rotation
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Life from the Loam
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Senei's Divining Top
1 Raven's Crime
1 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit

4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Thespian Stage
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Swamp
1 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

SB:
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Extripate
2 Duress
2 Disfigure
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Golgari Charm
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
1 Garruk Relentless

I really like the Mainboard right now, I may try swapping the 3rd Entomb for the 2nd Sensei's Divining Top. The Sideboard could change depending on Meta, the Night of Soul's Betrayal is less necessary without Young Pyromancer around same could be said of the second Tabernacle. I would want another Maelstrom Pulse for Jaces, Karakas or Maze of Ith could also fill a slot.

[beez]

I like your oversized Marit Lage token. Have you used the maindeck Bog to clear out an opponent s grave for keeping them off Delving? I imagine it is a surprise factor in games against grave abusing opponents game one, and good enough in other matchups to keep it main.

How is Garruck been for you? I like him too, but its been awhile since I've given him any run in Loam Pox. What matchups do you like to bring him in most for?

[jredelstein]

I like your oversized Marit Lage token. Have you used the maindeck Bog to clear out an opponent s grave for keeping them off Delving? I imagine it is a surprise factor in games against grave abusing opponents game one, and good enough in other matchups to keep it main.

How is Garruck been for you? I like him too, but its been awhile since I've given him any run in Loam Pox. What matchups do you like to bring him in most for?

I have used the main deck bog against delve, dredge, storm, snapcaster, gofy, mongoose.

I really like garruk against Miracles, sometime I'll bring it in against slower creature decks. It can really muck up the ground against shardless or stoneblade.

[beez]

That sounds like it would be good against Stoneblade and Miracles. I'd like to try it, maybe I could replace a Krosan Grip with a Garruck if two Grips are overkill, but they help with Miracles quite a bit.

[Hardcore]

I will run this tomorrow

CREATURES (13)

4 Bloodghast
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Pack Rat
1 Filth

SORCERIES (12)

4 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach

INSTANTS (4)

4 Diabolic Edict

PLANESWALKERS (4)

4 Liliana of the Veil

ARTIFACTS (6)

3 Ratchet Bomb
2 The Rack
1 Sensei’s Divining Top

LANDS (22)

2 Mishra’s Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 Swamp
3 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire

SIDEBOARD (15)

4 Engineered Plague
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void

I removed the Cabal Therapies and Gitaxian Probe.
Somewhat reluctantly i have bought Bloodstained Mire. i'll get the last two this week.

[OmniStrata]

I removed the Cabal Therapies and Gitaxian Probe.
Somewhat reluctantly i have bought Bloodstained Mire. i'll get the last two this week.

Don't forget your Badlands. :cool: I would like to see a B/R Pox that wins due to B/G being the other common Pox and Vaka B/W has dropped off the face of the Earth. You also get the mighty Dreadbore.

[Hardcore]

There are not any BR spells that look hot to me.
Mono-red spells perhaps, but i haven't looked through any burn list yet for inspiration.

[beez]

Devestating Dreams would be good if you could figure out how to make it work.

[jredelstein]

There are not any BR spells that look hot to me.
Mono-red spells perhaps, but i haven't looked through any burn list yet for inspiration.

Definitely some great red cards, Lightning Bolt, Fork Bolt, Pyroclasm, Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast, Hellspark Elemental, Devastating Dreams, Sulfuric Vortex, Smash to Smithereens

Dreadbore and Blightning are the best R/B cards I can think of. Rakdos Charm? Is Young Pyromancer/Cabal Therapy worth running?

Blood Moon and Sinkhole seem good together.

[Hardcore]

mm, blood moon. Would wreck Lands decks.
Pyroclasm may be the best card red can offer. Evil in conjunction with Engineered Plague.

Faithless looting and recurring creatures. ( i tend to run a few. Tombstalker.

[OmniStrata]

Definitely some great red cards, Lightning Bolt, Fork Bolt, Pyroclasm, Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast, Hellspark Elemental, Devastating Dreams, Sulfuric Vortex, Smash to Smithereens

Dreadbore and Blightning are the best R/B cards I can think of. Rakdos Charm? Is Young Pyromancer/Cabal Therapy worth running?

Blood Moon and Sinkhole seem good together.

Blood Moon works in a mono-red stompy deck. Don't want to shut off your own Wastelands, fetchlands, Urborgs, etc. Young Pyromancer would work if you had a token to sac to your Poxing. As far as red goes, it's got inferior copies of black stuff. Skullscorch, Stone Rain, Sirocco, are quick suggestions. A Wildfire-based Pox would be awesome to behold.

I like Blightning (Mind-rotting Lightning Bolt), Forked Bolt (2 for 1 Card Advantage), Rakdos Charm (synergizes and protects against all of Pox's weaknesses), Army Ants (infinite LD with Dakmor Salvage or Crucible), Ashenmoor Gouger/Shambling Remains/Goblin Deathraiders (great Power to CMC), Exava (for teh SEXAY), Fire Covenant (just awesome, especially with Spinning Darkness), Sanity Gnawers (couple with Ravenous Rats and Pack Rat for a vermin mousey Pox?) with Nezumi Shortfang (a Rack you can block and kill things with AND generate CA?)

Lots of the above are 3 cmc or less but yes, B/R Pox is most likely for the direct damage backed by big Pox life chunking.

[OmniStrata]

mm, blood moon. Would wreck Lands decks.
Pyroclasm may be the best card red can offer. Evil in conjunction with Engineered Plague.

Faithless looting and recurring creatures. ( i tend to run a few. Tombstalker.

Aether flash with Engineered Plague and/or Night of Souls' Betrayal sounds like just plain sadism. Blood Moon means you can't run Mishra's Factories though :frown:.

[jredelstein]

Blood Moon works in a mono-red stompy deck. Don't want to shut off your own Wastelands, fetchlands, Urborgs, etc. Young Pyromancer would work if you had a token to sac to your Poxing.

I am 98% sure that Young Pyromancer makes a token on cast, and Smallpox you sac on resolution so we are ok there.

The loss of wastelands to bloodmoon does suck which is why I suggested it with sinkhole, 2 basic swamps would allow us to cast anything through bloodmoon and since we are using bloodmoon as a Armageddon I guess losing wasteland is not that bad.

Direct burn can also help with planeswalkers which can be a weakness for pox.

Some of these ideas don't work well with each other but I definitely think there is a deck here and a metagame where this would be the correct choice.

30 sec pass at it:

4 Young Pyromancer
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fork Bolt
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Faithless Looting
2 Blightning
2 Dreadbore
4 Sinkhole
1 Boom//Bust
4 Smallpox
2 Bloodghast
1 Blood Moon

4 Wasteland
1 Urborg
4 Bloodstain Mire
4 Badlands
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Polluted Delta
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Ghost Quarter
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

SB:
2 Bloodmoon
3 Pyroclasm
2 Boom//Bust
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Dreadbore
2 Gamble
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast

I forgot about Boom//Bust until half way through typing list, the interaction with your own fetch lands or wasteland is amazing. This is just a quick shot at a B/R list definitely need testing.

[Hardcore]

Many nice suggestions. Thanks!

[Hardcore]

I played the decklist yesterday and it was so-so. Too controlish. Lost to infect, miracles and goblins.
Ofc, made an error or two sideboarding, but still.
I really want to play chalice in the main, and have less conflicting stuff in the deck. Liliana, for example, is hard to use as i often have valuable cards in hand like smallpox.

[Hardcore]

Rakdos Riteknife looks fun. It fits the overall theme, but i wonder how practical it is.

[Ralf]

I played Pox during a very long time. Among the thousand games I played with it, only one thing bothered me:
The false synergy between Liliana & SmallPox/Pox.

I can't recall how many games where I was stuck @ 2 swamps and 2 cards in hand being unable to play my Pox or Smallpox because discarding Lili away was too detrimental for the game course. Or the other way round, I just played a lili and can't use the +1 because I don't want to discard the Pox or the Smallpox.
Also, I can't recall how many games liliana's ultimate was "less powerful" than it could be if I were not playing Pox/Smallpox.



@ Hardcore: "deja vu" feeling ! but, I'm still searching the solution to the equation.

[jredelstein]

@ Hardcore: "deja vu" feeling ! but, I'm still searching the solution to the equation.

I really don't have this issue with G/B Pox, I have more cards that I am happy to discard than other pox builds (Bloodghast, cabal therapy, life from the loam, lands, Nether spirit, etc)

I don't see the problem you are having with Liliana and Smallpox, if they have no creatures then plusing Lily and losing smallpox is fine bc lily will just answer the next creature they play, if not make them sac with Lily and ultimately there may be times where it is correct to play Liliana and pass then next turn play smallpox and use Liliana. It is not an anti-synergy it is redundancy.

As far as using Lily's ultimate I almost never do it, I would rather just keep ticking up. There is one exception to this, I use the ultimate all the time against Miracles (I have won several games against miracles when they count the number of mana producing lands in their graveyard and realize they can't win)

[jredelstein]

Rakdos Riteknife looks fun. It fits the overall theme, but i wonder how practical it is.

Rakdos Riteknife is just begging to be brewed with Goblin Sharpshooter

That is definitely a fun brew more than a practical deck or addition to a Pox deck though.

[OmniStrata]

I really don't have this issue with G/B Pox, I have more cards that I am happy to discard than other pox builds (Bloodghast, cabal therapy, life from the loam, lands, Nether spirit, etc)

I don't see the problem you are having with Liliana and Smallpox, if they have no creatures then plusing Lily and losing smallpox is fine bc lily will just answer the next creature they play, if not make them sac with Lily and ultimately there may be times where it is correct to play Liliana and pass then next turn play smallpox and use Liliana. It is not an anti-synergy it is redundancy.

As far as using Lily's ultimate I almost never do it, I would rather just keep ticking up. There is one exception to this, I use the ultimate all the time against Miracles (I have won several games against miracles when they count the number of mana producing lands in their graveyard and realize they can't win)

Amen to this^ :cool:

We are not a blue deck and we need to stop behaving as such. "I will need this for later..." is a blue mage's way of thinking. So you cast Lily and have a Smallpox in hand. Do they have a threat? Use Liliana's -2. Do they have multiple threats? Just cast Smallpox and discard Liliana because she's not going to live and you'd have hit 3 of your opponent's cards anyway. Your threats shouldn't care about being binned and you have 24+ mana sources.

Blue mages hoard resources and useful cards 'just in case'. To live with Pox is to live "in the now". We are tempo decks. Spells we cast need to have an effect on the board right now. This is why I board out Dark Ritual 90% of the time because I usually don't fight decks that turn 1-3 kill me. But when I do I'm glad it's main decked.

Actually, for more redundancy, I could run 4 smallpox, 4 Pox, and 4 Liliana of the Veils. I'd be losing my Crucible, Engineered Plague, and Night of Souls' Betrayal for it. My meta has more creatures in it than combo or control so I can't do so. However, in a meta where creature hordes are few, that configuration would be Godly. Build for your meta and build for redundancy, then you'll have more 'expendable' cards that you won't mind discarding.

Are you going to hold that Liliana of the Veil while your other copy is on the field? Nah, +1 it away. I've discarded Smallpox to Smallpox before. It's not a hard decision. You need to make life or death decisions like choosing brands of beer. :laugh:

[OmniStrata]

Rakdos Riteknife looks fun. It fits the overall theme, but i wonder how practical it is.

If you let the game drag on, a 6/2 Nether Spirit would be a sight to behold. Even moreso where after damage, you sac the knife and they lose 4 permanents... :eek:

[Hardcore]

It is best for control i guess, but i wouldn't mind a fifth pox effect. (Especially if it is not symmetrical...)
I will have closer to twenty creatures in my next configuration so i will have place for one riteknife to test. Should help against white.

[OmniStrata]

It is best for control i guess, but i wouldn't mind a fifth pox effect. (Especially if it is not symmetrical...)
I will have closer to twenty creatures in my next configuration so i will have place for one riteknife to test. Should help against white.

Wouldn't Smallpox be fine as the 5th Pox effect? I remember your builds posted before with 4 Pox but no Smallpoxes. In any case, I'm curious if you're running that many creatures what they'd be. Red's low cmc trampling Bolt Elementals like Spark Elemental and Hellspark elemental would be good for the knife too I think midgame.

Pox plays hellbent a lot. I think Gobhobbler Rats would be a hilarious addition to an aggro suite. 2 mana for a 3/2 regenerator is insanity.

[Hardcore]

Nihilith will see play, again, and Nether Spirit. Necroplasm, maybe one of. Buried alive.

BR creatures will wait. I need more red mana sources yet. Besides it is a higher priority integrating chalice of the void in the deck.
So far it seems best to just make a standard build including 1cc spells and add like three chalices.
Ie. probes+ therapies+ chalice, rather than chalice+ hymn.

[OmniStrata]

Nihilith will see play, again, and Nether Spirit. Necroplasm, maybe one of. Buried alive.

BR creatures will wait. I need more red mana sources yet. Besides it is a higher priority integrating chalice of the void in the deck.
So far it seems best to just make a standard build including 1cc spells and add like three chalices.
Ie. probes+ therapies+ chalice, rather than chalice+ hymn.

Cutting off your own 1cc spells isn't needed. Chalice + Hymn + Wrench Mind + Blightning will do some heavy disruption on decks that revolve around speedy 1cmc spells. Which is most of the legacy Meta. I however don't know your meta so if you're in a slower environment, maybe Chalice won't be a good idea.

[Hardcore]

Lands is popular, but combo less so.
You are right: i worry overly much about the speed of midrange decks. A pair of delvers can beat down hard, but that won't happen every game.

[Hardcore]

I played the decklist yesterday and it was so-so. Too controlish. Lost to infect, miracles and goblins.
Ofc, made an error or two sideboarding, but still.
I really want to play chalice in the main, and have less conflicting stuff in the deck. Liliana, for example, is hard to use as i often have valuable cards in hand like smallpox.

Note: was talking about my own mono B list here.

[Hardcore]

How much red mana do i need for splash? I got myself four Bloodstained Mire and one Bloodcrypt. Add a mountain and that is six sources.

[jredelstein]

How much red mana do i need for splash? I got myself four Bloodstained Mire and one Bloodcrypt. Add a mountain and that is six sources.

Depends on how many red spells you want to play and on what turns, I play 4 verdant, 2 misty, 4 bayou, 1 forest for my GB pox. I play 3 crop rotation 3 abrupt decay, 2 pernicious deed, 2 life from loam for main board green spells. I still sometimes have issues getting color screwed but I don't think I'd add another green source.

[Hardcore]

Thank you! I can use that and work from there.

[hpl324]

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16492&iddeck=123419

There are people who try this version ??

[OmniStrata]

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16492&iddeck=123419

There are people who try this version ??

Adachi's deck I took and hybridized with Reid Duke's old builds and ended up with a Lands Spells Pox. Empty the Pits is probably the strongest win con in a Pox that doesn't use the GY for anything and can clean out space for a 'clogged' Nether Spirit, but won't work in my Crucible deck since each land I bring back takes away from the zombie count. I guess he just makes the call and 'empties' when he knows the enemy will die in one strike?

[kombatkiwi]

I guess the idea is to use Crucible of Worlds and the high number of lands in order to enable the more powerful 4-drops, (Empty the Pits, the enchantments) but this is fairly at odds with the overall Pox strategy.

Only playing 2 Hymn to Tourach seems awful. 0 copies of Nether Spirit with 0 other creatures? 4 Thoughtseize and 0 Inquisition maindeck?

Beseech the Queen seems reasonable (especially with maindeck utility lands) but overall I think this is a sub-optimal list. Coming 46th in a 72 man event isn't exactly something to write home about.

[OmniStrata]

I guess the idea is to use Crucible of Worlds and the high number of lands in order to enable the more powerful 4-drops, (Empty the Pits, the enchantments) but this is fairly at odds with the overall Pox strategy.

Only playing 2 Hymn to Tourach seems awful. 0 copies of Nether Spirit with 0 other creatures? 4 Thoughtseize and 0 Inquisition maindeck?

Beseech the Queen seems reasonable (especially with maindeck utility lands) but overall I think this is a sub-optimal list. Coming 46th in a 72 man event isn't exactly something to write home about.

Yes, 2 Hymns is BLASPHEMOUS in Poxing strategy. It's the ultimate Card Advantage for 2 mana, I did experiment with a more LD form using Rancid Earth alongside Sinkhole and Wasteland but it just can't be beat. Nothing works better than a turn 2 Hymn and your foe has to Force of Will to save his precious hand. Daze is funnier cause I then do Sinkhole on Turn 3...

I do like the idea of the spell lands though and after testing the sexy Maze of Ith, I've never looked back. Cabal Pit with Maze of Ith and Crucible is true cruelty. :cool:

[Hardcore]

My latest decks have not been good at beating miracles. I suspect the reason could be moving away from chalice and towards therapy.
(1cc discard is not that great versus decks with blue cantrips.)

So, my latest build is therefore a chalice deck and the innovation is to run Dark Ritual instead of Chrome Mox.
While that may sound questionable, since the plan is to play chalice on one, the card loss of the mox ramp is worse. It is guaranteed, while the ritual is useful whenever there is no chalice in play.
Also, rituals help cast tombstalker, which is a creature that helps getting upper hand over decks playing decay, and sideboard cards like engineered plague.



4 Bloodghast
4 bloodsoaked champion
2 nether spirit
3 pack rat
3 tombstalker

4 Pox
4 smallpox
4 dark ritual
4 hymn to tourach
4 chalice of the void

15 swamp
4 bloodstained mire
1 blood crypt
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3 wasteland

[OmniStrata]

My latest decks have not been good at beating miracles. I suspect the reason could be moving away from chalice and towards therapy.
(1cc discard is not that great versus decks with blue cantrips.)

Things will shine brighter once you get that 4th Wasteland. The real reason Chalice has issue is because it's execution is like a combo deck really. [wait what?] Yes, if you do not have Chalice on turn 1-2 to 'Stompy' your opponent's early game spells, they become dead when you draw them late. Pox wants to play with cheap spells due to the sacrificial nature of Wasteland, Smallpox, Pox, etc. Chalice in Pox is working against you since you have Wastelands.

1cc discard is amazing vs. blue cantrips. You're still ripping them down one card since blue cantrips only replace themselves and 1cc discard still hits what you need it to hit. Hymn to Tourach and Smallpox are the ultimate Brainstorm killers. Even better when they try to hide their good cards only to get slapped by my 1-of Ghost Quarter or Extirpate.

My match with my friend's fully powered Miracles deck is now closer to even instead of lose. He has a different approach in that he runs 12+ counter spells on top of 3 SDT, 4 Counterbalance and no creatures.

[Hardcore]

he really should play four SDT.

[Hardcore]

Sorry for the brief reply, but it was late. I'll play today and will keep an eye on the interactions you discussed.

[OmniStrata]

he really should play four SDT.

I was thinking that too, but we've both discovered that there is such a thing as too many SDTs... :laugh: When I ran Counterbalance as part of my Threshold deck a long time ago, I also ran with 3 SDT cause drawing multiple SDTs are time walks that jam the top of your library at the worst times.

Mono-B Pox can run just 1-2 SDT since it has no way to shuffle the top garbage away. Personally, I'd rather run one Crystal Ball.

[PirateKing]

I have a pretty 'standard' Pox deck that's been collecting dust that I'd like to take more seriously. Serious as in the inclusion of cards like Chains of Mephistopheles, The Abyss, Nether Void & The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. For reference the list as it is right now:

11 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 Pox
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Innocent Blood
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Cursed Scroll
2 Nether Spirit
1 Trinisphere
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard
3 Engineered Plague
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Duress
3 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void

So beyond the obvious comparisons, like replacing Trinishpere with Nether Void and Toxic Deluge with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, I'm not familiar enough with these cards to correctly place them main deck or sideboard, especially since I anticipate having access to between 0 and 1 copies for reasons.
My first instinct would be to focus on Chains of Mephistopheles first, since the card is cheap and it's effect isn't easily replicated from other cards, but I may be wrong.
Looking for guidance and advice from those here who have experience in 'powered' Pox lists. Thanks

[beez]

That's serious as a heart attack. Most have Chains in the board but a few run it main. Most who have them run Nether Void and The Abyss in the main, but a few choose to run them out of the board depending on the matchup.

[Sara_Anderson]

I run 2 neither void main and 2 chains in the side. I got 33rd out of 151 at scgdfw this past weekend. My losses were to omni show. I feel like once I get a couple of the abyss for my sideboard my matchup will be better.

[Hardcore]

if they run omniscience nether void will screw them already, but for emrakul something like the abyss would be nice.
I recall getting a simple Thorn of Amethyst in play vs omniscience, and that was sweet:-)

[OmniStrata]

There's only 2 reasons you'd lose to a combo deck. I've fought Omni-Show, Sneak-show, ANT, and Dredge (this is the exception). I haven't fought TES yet but I look forward to it. I've only ever lost to dredge combo. I think Charbelcher might beat me, but turn 1 wins are highly unlikely in any case.

1. Your opening draw isn't 'fast disruption'. If you can't do something turn 1 to mess with their spells (1 cmc discard/Dark Ritual Trinisphere, etc.) then they decide to go-off turn 1, you're pretty much dead in the water without any way out.

2. You built your Pox deck with less than twelve 1 cmc spells. We need to be wrecking brains on turn 1-2. This equates to both bad luck and poor counter meta thinking. My meta always has combo decks. If you have so many spells that destroy hands (mind crushing Hymn to Tourachs off of Dark Rituals) then a combo deck really should be a bye auto-win for you.

Emrakul is a joke, unless he has haste or is 'hard-casted' with OmniScience. Innocent Blood, Smallpox, Pox, Liliana, Edicts, etc. Unless your enemy can cast 2+ creatures in a turn, you should be fine.

Granted, these are 'best case' scenarios but I'd also like to think they are the most likely since turn 1 da nutz just doesn't happen often enough. If they did, then everyone would just play turn 1 win decks and walk away with awards. :laugh:

[OmniStrata]

if they run omniscience nether void will screw them already, but for emrakul something like the abyss would be nice.
I recall getting a simple Thorn of Amethyst in play vs omniscience, and that was sweet:-)

I don't run thorns, but I'd be dropping a Trinisphere/Nether Void for that Show & Tell. I'd also be laughing maniacally as their Omniscience gets reduced to shat :cool:

[Hardcore]

Right. Forgot about that manic laughter.

[Hardcore]

For the first time in ages i ran the same deck in two consecutive tournaments. A week ago
i entered with this one:
4 Bloodghast
4 bloodsoaked champion
2 nether spirit
3 pack rat
3 tombstalker

4 Pox
4 smallpox
4 dark ritual
4 hymn to tourach
1 wrench mind
4 chalice of the void

15 swamp
4 bloodstained mire
1 blood crypt
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3 wasteland

4 Leyline of the void
4 Engineered plague
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Ratchet Bomb


Because i didn't faced opponents that played cantrips the chalices were of marginal value. I lost horribly to reanimator. Partly because of inexperience i think.
Also it would have been nice with 1cc discard against it. (he forced my chalice)

Yesterday i picked up the deckbox, that had been on a shelf since last week, exchanged two chalice for engineered plague and went down town.

It worked better this time. I won first round vs burn by heavy poxing. The opponent got mana screwed. The second duel it didn't helped him at all that i played chalice on one.

i was happy with this good start for once, but next lost to a twelve post deck:-( Again. I shouldn't have that persistent problem really and need tune my build now.
Sure, he drew his candelabra both duels but since he could buy more of them there is no point entering games hoping he wont draw them.

i also defeated a goblin deck, partly thanks to main deck plague:-) (drew it as third card, iirc, first duel)

Lastly i lost to a GBW natural order deck. Annoying. Lots of counters messed up my game.

Changes should be small overall,
and i won't do all i am considering below.
Dark ritual have not been of much use. Actions like turn one plague have not been necessary.
Replacing rituals with lands would free up two slots.

Fleshbag Marauder would be nice against show and tell, which the twelve post use to get a titan in play.
It wouldn't be bad main deck either because of all the dudes i have that want to die for me.
I would replace the Pack Rats.

Lastly that 1cc i needed. Perhaps i should go for probe and therapy? (Again.)

[Hardcore]

I think contamination could replace chalice main deck.
For fun there is also Worms of the Earth to put into sideboard.

[OmniStrata]

I think contamination could replace chalice main deck.
For fun there is also Worms of the Earth to put into sideboard.

I had a Contamination build once a long time ago. In the right meta (no other black decks) it's THE mana denial card. Only weird decks like Elves or what not can withstand the pollution! Getting the combo with N. Spirit was tough. Feeding it will be difficult.

I was VERY close to considering Worms of the Earth but I've found 3 things need to happen.
1. You need to keep their land counts to less than 3 150% of the time.
2. People will just pay the damage. It's only playable when they're at 5 life. Or you have a threat in play that hits them down to 5 or less. Other cards that force life pay, like Pillar tombs of Aku or Browbeat are better for the mana.
3. Since you're Poxing, you'll need to have a signifcant advantage before you cast Worms of the Earth yourself.

From a cost standpoint, 5 damage and 2 lands for 5 cmc is actually not that bad since it is technically card advantage and massive tempo gain. I run Dark Rituals so perhaps I could make room for 1. I'm sure you'd never want to see this card till absolute late game.

On a minor news front, I'm changing my Pox deck. More tempo, more aggro, almost resembling Threshold. More to come when I can test it further. Also much faster. I'm not a fan of the stress that comes with going to time in tournaments. Long games NO MORE! :cool:

[OmniStrata]

After dozens and dozens of games with traditional "Prison" Pox, I've taken it to an older, different turn. My prior deck only had 8 threats, took a LOONG time to defeat my opponent, and it was tough to recover from since I had much more strangling elements. However, it was very mana intensive and demanded my enemies play games quickly. If I was facing another control deck, either counterspell based or otherwise, they had a tendency to draw out and inevitably win.

I didn't think it was a big deal until I entered 2-3 tournaments that had time limits. Those games were quite stressful and my own Magic Coach, "Dread Return" we'll call him, said the time burnt into said games could be used for more productive things, like walking around and watching other people's games.

My other fav deck, though caged within a budget, was RUG Delver (Threshold). It had the idea of playing a threat, choking the opponent's spells/resources, and simply winning with that single threat. If that threat died, you just played another one. Any sweepers the opponent had were effectively over priced removal. I thought to myself, what if I could try that approach with Pox? It had a much more effective suite of LD, generated real Card Advantage instead of virtual, and Black threats were more offensive than the Blue / Green ones. I only played 2 games but had favorable results. They were against home brew aggro though and I have yet to try it against my more 'hard core' Magic comrades. Behold... Arctic HORROR Pox!

Threats (12)
4 Epochrasite
4 Oona's Prowler
4 Nihilith

Spells (18)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
2 Pox

Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

Mana / Lands (26)
4 Dark Ritual
11 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter

Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
1 The Rack
1 Underworld Dreams
2 Funeral Charm
4 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
3 Relic of Progenitus

Pros - Much much faster than my old Deck. After Nihilith resolves, preferably after a Poxing style spell, it'd just punch to victory. More offensive nature causes play errors to occur. Enemies are busy looking for a way to deal with massive threats instead of playing their own game. Each threat in deck can be Suspended or cast on turn 2 which is like a time bomb to doom. Evasion through flying and Fear was very effective

Cons - Less 'fancy'. No Crucible longevity and Mishra's Factories. No Cursed Scroll makes swarms tougher to deal with until game 2. The Funeral Charms are placeholders. I'm thinking of making them Rack and Underworld Dreams #2 instead. Being less disruptive means you are now more into a slugging match with players vs. strangling them slowly. This can be more or less fun depending on your personality but that's just subjective observation.

Every card shown is old school and explained before but the strategies aren't as obvious:
Oona's Prowler: it's an Unconditional Delver that generates Card Advantage! Most players need their precious cards so by discarding useless cards to this guy to buy time, you play your Hymns with more devastating effect.
Epochrasite: 4/4 with Haste after being suspended. Can't be responded to upon suspension. When this thing is ticking down, you want to cast every spell in your hand ASAP. Can also be used to chump or to protect your other threats from your own Poxing.
Nihilith: Ah, an old favorite, nothing like Dark Ritual on turn 2 with a Nihilith suspension followed by a Smallpox. Can hit the field and smash VERY fast depending on how quickly you rip their spells, threats, and lands down.

Will report more when I can join my local card shop tourney.

[Fox]

I run a deck fairly similar to pirate king's list [proxy lillys so no official matches], though sometimes add in green off the bayous. Anyways, just wanted to see if anyone else has experimented with 1-2 mainboard copies of Gibbering Descent, using Liliana's discard to protect from Force while initiating lower madness cost (the only way it's getting cast). It's a fairly miserable way for them to lose, might justify a Lake of the Dead in the main (for old time's sake), and can be an outlet for a turn 4+ Dark Ritual draw.
The skipping upkeep part can lead to some interesting possibilities: Crop Rotation for Glacial Chasm or perhaps one of the worst wordings of cumulative upkeep in Wave of Terror - which for some reason triggers in the draw step allowing for permanent bury cmc x=0 or 1 gamestates.
Here's the relevant oracle text: At the beginning of your draw step, destroy each creature with converted mana cost equal to the number of age counters on Wave of Terror. They can't be regenerated.

[jredelstein]

experimented with 1-2 mainboard copies of Gibbering Descent, using Liliana's discard to protect from Force while initiating lower madness cost (the only way it's getting cast).

The skipping upkeep part can lead to some interesting possibilities: Crop Rotation for Glacial Chasm.

As far as the discarding goes, Gibbering Descent seems kinda useless, if you have a Liliana on the field they should be hellbent by then or soon. Id rather have more discard for the more crucial early turns. I feel like for a 4 mana or less permanent there are a ton of cards I'd rather play(NoSB, Nether Void, Garruk Relentless, Abyss, Chains of Mephistopheles, Ensaring Bridge)

That said, the interaction of skipping your upkeep could be relevant against some decks. It is a non-bo with Tabernacle which GB with crop rotation should play but as you point out it is great with Glacial Chasm. I do not know is there are any other things to abuse the no upkeep clause, and then it probably becomes too cute. It could make it harder to flip a Delver. I think that it may mean there is no priority passing in the turn before the draw step(feel free to correct me on rulings but I believe the upkeep is the first priority pass in a turn if there is no upkeep then it would be at the end of the draw-step for next chance) which I guess could be relevant(no cliqueing, or toping during upkeep).

[zebhillard]

Only 8 people made it to the Legacy night at the LGS, which means an entertaining (albeit short) 3 rounds. I ended up 2-1 with a loss to Goblins because of horrid draws and mulligans, but wins over RU Delver and Death and Taxes using the following list:

4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Cursed Scroll
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 The Rack

2 Shrieking Affliction
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Waste Not
4 Dark Ritual
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
3 Smallpox

12 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

The SB was a mess and hodgepodge of things, and the only cards that proved relevant over the entire night were 3 Engineered Plague. T1 ritual into Plague on Humans in both the Delver and D&T match pretty much won it for me, and a fun g1t1 play against D&T was Rit into Waste Not and Raven's Crime, with them discarding a Land and then me using the BB generated to hit a Hymn to Tourach and get 2 zombies from it.

I'll likely tinker with it a little and tune some things to see if it plays a bit better than my previous version of Pox.

[Hardcore]

After dozens and dozens of games with traditional "Prison" Pox, I've
Behold... Arctic HORROR Pox!
.

Um yes. Why snow lands?

[Hardcore]

so, this is the latest iteration of my deck.

4 Bloodghast
4 bloodsoaked champion
2 nether spirit
3 tombstalker
3 fleshbag marauder

4 Pox
4 smallpox
4 dark ritual
4 hymn to tourach
2 engineered plague
2 the rack

16 swamp
4 bloodstained mire
3 wasteland


Away with Pack Rats and chalice. In goes the Rack and Fleshbag Marauder. This is only 59 cards however. Maybe card #60 should be a Divining top. Hmm.
Any other ideas?

[OmniStrata]

Um yes. Why snow lands?

Question is, WHY NOT snow-covered swamps?! :tongue: They're prettier.

It also opens up 2 possibilities with Withering Wisps and Scrying Sheets + Sensei's Divining Top, though I'm not going to take that path yet. I do however have beefy enough creatures to survive a wisp activation of 3, but I'm leaning to more control by that point.

[beez]

I've started to test this build out. It is more grave/Loam dependant than I normally like, but I've looked at a lot of lands type deck lists that have been successful recently and it has a similar level as them, by design. Basically, it's more "All In" and is explosive enough that if the opponent doesn't have the answer soon it will be lights out. A topdecked extraction effect is the biggest speed bump, or an early DRS with no early Lilly or Decay or Smallpox on my part, but there are twelve of those plus Toxic Deluge in the board, and extraction isn't always the most common grave hate. Sideboard is mostly to combat combo and anticipated grave hate by opponent. The Spirit is to Entomb for early Goyf blocks and a very desperate backup win con rather than a second Maze of Ith.



1 Nether Spirit

4 Mox Diamond
3 Exploration

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Life from the Loam
4 Entomb
4 Crop Rotation
4 Smallpox
4 Raven's Crime
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Wasteland
3 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Urborg,Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Maze of Ith

Side
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Cabal Pit
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Barren Moor
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
3 Toxic Deluge

[jredelstein]

I've started to test this build out. It is more grave/Loam dependant than I normally like, but I've looked at a lot of lands type deck lists that have been successful recently and it has a similar level as them, by design. Basically, it's more "All In" and is explosive enough that if the opponent doesn't have the answer soon it will be lights out. A topdecked extraction effect is the biggest speed bump, or an early DRS with no early Lilly or Decay or Smallpox on my part, but there are twelve of those plus Toxic Deluge in the board, and extraction isn't always the most common grave hate. Sideboard is mostly to combat combo and anticipated grave hate by opponent. The Spirit is to Entomb for early Goyf blocks and a very desperate backup win con rather than a second Maze of Ith.



1 Nether Spirit

4 Mox Diamond
3 Exploration

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Life from the Loam
4 Entomb
4 Crop Rotation
4 Smallpox
4 Raven's Crime
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Wasteland
3 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Urborg,Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Maze of Ith

Side
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Cabal Pit
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Barren Moor
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
3 Toxic Deluge



Innocent Blood or Cabal Pit main could help with early Deathrite Shaman. I would also recommend playing more Crop Rotation targets main(The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Bojuka Bog). Are you running enough lands for a Mox Diamond, Exploration build? I run 27 lands main in my GB pox and I feel much less reliant on my graveyard and don't need extra lands early for Exploration, or Mox Diamond. Also if you are playing a more combo oriented finish is it worth it to play Vampire Hexmage?

I would also play at least 2 Barren Moor main deck because with Life from the Loam it will dig you really fast. It is also nice to be able to both draw and dredge every turn, and provides protection from Surgical Extraction for your Loam.

[beez]

After a little testing I think that the Exploration may be surplus to requirements. As a deck that still likes to use Smallpox and Lilliana to clear the path first, I don't always want to be comboing out to Marit Lage at first opportunity. Hexmage is more marginal with a Pox strategy. Exploration is nice, but this deck has less lands than Land decks, and in fact removing them would leave a couple of slots for more lands as you suggest, like another Urborg or Barren Moor.

[OmniStrata]

What I've suspected has come true...

My more aggro design has a tendency to generate a LOT of pressure for enemy control decks (Pox's bane). But my ability to fight other aggro decks takes a dip. Ah, trade offs! :rolleyes:

One of my test games was against a friend who built a G/W Pauper slivers deck. An extremely effective one I might add. I won a game due to dropping an Ensnaring Bridge, building up to four cards in my hand, then slamming him with Nihilith (love fear!) and then discarding a card to Liliana since his Slivers were all 5/6 :cry:

I found myself with a metric ton of threats (12 total in deck) which was a lot more than I desire. With my Threshold deck, though it had 12 threats as well, I found it would flood me less due to Brainstorms and Fetchland activations. Needing only 1 threat to carry, I may as well make sure it's the best one. I'll trim my new build down to ten win conditions and 'summon' the cards of ancient times... :eek:

It'll still be more offensive than not, but I won't be using Cursed Scroll or Crucible so the deck's flavor is still mid range instead of traditional control's long game. No Cabal Pit or Maze of Ith for now.

Worms of the Earth is on my radar right now. After Wastelanding, Sinkhole, and a Smallpox or two, this would be a nail in the coffin once they're health totals are in the sink. Even if not, that's a 2 for 1 and 5 damage for 5 mana. Not bad as a one of. Damping Engine is also on my mind as well for a stabilizing piece.

[kombatkiwi]

Worms of the Earth is literally worse than the card Lava Axe
- Both cards are sorcery speed 5 mana
- Lava Axe is always 5 damage
- Worms of the Earth is usually 5 damage unless the opponent
a - Is happy with the number of lands they have
b - Is happy to sac 2 lands to have the ability to play more lands

If they pay 5 life to get rid of it it's not a 2 for 1, it's a neg 1 (Lava Axe). You don't want to play Lava Axe in your Thoughtseize deck.

There's so much weird shit in this thread lately
- Nether Spirits in a deck with 16 creatures
- Oona's Prowler in a deck with Smallpox in it
- Cutting disruption for junk like Shrieking Affliction

What are the problems people have found with the Reid list such that they feel the need to make these pretty big changes?

[OmniStrata]

Worms of the Earth is literally worse than the card Lava Axe
- Both cards are sorcery speed 5 mana
- Lava Axe is always 5 damage
- Worms of the Earth is usually 5 damage unless the opponent
a - Is happy with the number of lands they have
b - Is happy to sac 2 lands to have the ability to play more lands

If they pay 5 life to get rid of it it's not a 2 for 1, it's a neg 1 (Lava Axe). You don't want to play Lava Axe in your Thoughtseize deck.

There's so much weird shit in this thread lately
- Nether Spirits in a deck with 16 creatures
- Oona's Prowler in a deck with Smallpox in it
- Cutting disruption for junk like Shrieking Affliction

What are the problems people have found with the Reid list such that they feel the need to make these pretty big changes?

Point taken. I misread the 'or' part in the card [facepalm]. Reid's list is slow. I think for some, excrutiatingly so. One of his Pox edition decks did come with Tombstalkers in the Sideboard which would help with the speed I'm sure. I'm dialing back the clock to something a bit older. 10 threats, most of which hit quite hard, and I'm messing with the land a bit. Even Reid himself admits that Pox is unable to deal with everything the longer the game goes. "Sometimes it's much easier to just kill your opponent." Instead of winning for twenty turns.

The challenge is now given. What I'd like to know is what would make a good sideboard card vs. decks that want to go past the 20 turn mark, like Miracles control. I've got Underworld Dreams, which is a solid threat in the face of slowness and punishes B-stormers. It's hard to come up with others.

[kombatkiwi]

Point taken. I misread the 'or' part in the card [facepalm]. Reid's list is slow. I think for some, excrutiatingly so. One of his Pox edition decks did come with Tombstalkers in the Sideboard which would help with the speed I'm sure. I'm dialing back the clock to something a bit older. 10 threats, most of which hit quite hard, and I'm messing with the land a bit. Even Reid himself admits that Pox is unable to deal with everything the longer the game goes. "Sometimes it's much easier to just kill your opponent." Instead of winning for twenty turns.

The challenge is now given. What I'd like to know is what would make a good sideboard card vs. decks that want to go past the 20 turn mark, like Miracles control. I've got Underworld Dreams, which is a solid threat in the face of slowness and punishes B-stormers. It's hard to come up with others.

I like some combination of The Rack and Pithing Needle:
- The Rack is normally faster than Underworld Dreams, easier to cast, and you can redirect the damage to Jace. If you're in a situation where Underworld Dreams is damaging them but The Rack wouldn't then you're probably losing that game anyway
- Pithing Needle is great because when they can fix their draws every turn it breaks the symmetry of card exchanges in their favour, so disabling top is very important. It also can disable Jace.

What I think the deck needs atm is a way (either mained or sided) to disrupt DTT, because it's a natural foil to this type of extreme attrition strategy. I think either Relics or Bogs could be worth using

[Chatto]

so, this is the latest iteration of my deck.

4 Bloodghast
4 bloodsoaked champion
2 nether spirit
3 tombstalker
3 fleshbag marauder

4 Pox
4 smallpox
4 dark ritual
4 hymn to tourach
2 engineered plague
2 the rack

16 swamp
4 bloodstained mire
3 wasteland


Away with Pack Rats and chalice. In goes the Rack and Fleshbag Marauder. This is only 59 cards however. Maybe card #60 should be a Divining top. Hmm.
Any other ideas?

I like this! How does it perform?

[wuberg]

Worms of the Earth is literally worse than the card Lava Axe
- Both cards are sorcery speed 5 mana
- Lava Axe is always 5 damage
- Worms of the Earth is usually 5 damage unless the opponent
a - Is happy with the number of lands they have
b - Is happy to sac 2 lands to have the ability to play more lands

If they pay 5 life to get rid of it it's not a 2 for 1, it's a neg 1 (Lava Axe). You don't want to play Lava Axe in your Thoughtseize deck.

There's so much weird shit in this thread lately
- Nether Spirits in a deck with 16 creatures
- Oona's Prowler in a deck with Smallpox in it
- Cutting disruption for junk like Shrieking Affliction

What are the problems people have found with the Reid list such that they feel the need to make these pretty big changes?

Thank you, sir! Weird, unfocused brews with old, sub-par cards will certainly not take Pox to the next level. Pox is my absolute favorite deck in Legacy, but fact is that the deck is pretty much established by now and Pox will not become a deck-to-beat unless there is a huge meta shift or some new crazy card is printed.

[OmniStrata]

Thank you, sir! Weird, unfocused brews with old, sub-par cards will certainly not take Pox to the next level. Pox is my absolute favorite deck in Legacy, but fact is that the deck list is pretty much established by now and Pox will not become a deck-to-beat unless there is a huge meta shift or some new crazy card is printed.

What would be the 'flex slots' in this established deck you speak of?

For my opinion, the 'must have' cards in traditional Pox would be:
Innocent Blood
Inquisition of Kozilek
Hymn to Tourach
Sinkhole
Smallpox
1-2 Pox
Liliana of the Veil
Wasteland

That's half a deck right there. Are we even allowed wiggle room anymore? :cry: I think the reality of a Pox deck's strength ultimately lies in the Sideboard's ability to heal a game's problems vs. the 'band aids' that others use. (one - shot temporary effects)

[Ralf]

What would be the 'flex slots' in this established deck you speak of?

For my opinion, the 'must have' cards in traditional Pox would be:
Innocent Blood
Inquisition of Kozilek
Hymn to Tourach
Sinkhole
Smallpox
1-2 Pox
Liliana of the Veil
Wasteland

That's half a deck right there. Are we even allowed wiggle room anymore? :cry: I think the reality of a Pox deck's strength ultimately lies in the Sideboard's ability to heal a game's problems vs. the 'band aids' that others use. (one - shot temporary effects)

Back to September 2013 when I was actively playing Pox in my LGS, I would not have said that Pox is required in a traditional list. I still don't think it is mandatory.
We have all the tools to beat any kind (except grave based strategies) of deck.
But the deck is not consistent enough to attract the minimal required threshold of players to start putting up results on big tournaments.

A couple of top 16 was the best I could get with it. Because during 6+ rounds, you'll lose at least once because of your "draws" if not twice.
I cannot recall how many "under control" games I lost because I successively drew 5 lands when my opponent was drawing gas.

Until we get something that "win the top deck war for good", Pox will remain an established deck or until having access to a lock and not a soft one.

The other aspect of Pox is that this archetype does not allow ANY misplay, like a lot of control deck but even further. Discarding/Sac'in the wrong card (land) on a smallpox is the best shortcut to lose a game on the spot. The Pox decision tree might be one of the most complicated one through all legacy because you don't have to think only about the board & your hand but also about your statistical chances to draw the card you need to establish your soft lock/deal with a threat WITHOUT any ability to filter your draws or to draw more than one card per turn.

It's been quite a long time since Liliana's printing and Pox renewal and we didn't get any new lock piece or any new very strong card to keep up with the rest of the format since then.

[kombatkiwi]

The other aspect of Pox is that this archetype does not allow ANY misplay, like a lot of control deck but even further. Discarding/Sac'in the wrong card (land) on a smallpox is the best shortcut to lose a game on the spot. The Pox decision tree might be one of the most complicated one through all legacy because you don't have to think only about the board & your hand but also about your statistical chances to draw the card you need to establish your soft lock/deal with a threat WITHOUT any ability to filter your draws or to draw more than one card per turn.


This is a gross exaggeration, Pox is probably one of the easiest decks to play in the entire format.
The entire gameplan revolves around denying both players access to resources and being forced into 'topdeck mode' removes like 90% of the room to make strategic decisions. I'm not saying you can't misplay with the deck but of all the archetypes in legacy that I've seen or tried this one comes the closest to playing itself.

With respect to the idea of a 'stock list' I reference the Reid article from 2012

Creatures (2)

2 Nether Spirit
Planeswalkers (4)

4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (25)

13 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Spells (29)

3 Cursed Scroll
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 Thoughtseize

I would consider:
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Innocent Blood
2 Pox
1 Thoughtseize
1 Nether Spirit
To be 'flex slots', I probably wouldn't cut anything else

[OmniStrata]

The biggest reason I'd never suggest excluding Big Bro Pox is due to the threat density and clock speeds. Granted, you can say 'play 2 threats! then you get double the clock speed!' There's also time limits to consider. We don't run 12 threats, usually 6-9 I'm seeing in newer lists so hitting with that 2nd threat wouldn't statistically be that common place. That and blockers, I hate blockers.

Awesome sauce occurs when you're at 3 lands, 1 recurrable threat, and 3 cards in hand. Happens often enough. And always faster than your opponent can balance their hand/resources. When you lose 1-2 cards to Pox and they lose 3-6 cards, there's ultimate card advantage to be had.

The idea that Dig Through Time is one of our worst issues is a real one. "Skipping" 7 turns to get 2 cards you need is crazy over powered. Chains of Mephistopheles is probably our strongest weapon against this thing, though it's prohibitive wallet cost doesn't help many. Thankfully, it's not a staple and we've got land destruction to deal with top decked spells. I'm bringing back my 1-of Crucible to Waste/Ghost Quarter lock.

[Ralf]

The biggest reason I'd never suggest excluding Big Bro Pox is due to the threat density and clock speeds. Granted, you can say 'play 2 threats! then you get double the clock speed!' There's also time limits to consider. We don't run 12 threats, usually 6-9 I'm seeing in newer lists so hitting with that 2nd threat wouldn't statistically be that common place. That and blockers, I hate blockers.

Awesome sauce occurs when you're at 3 lands, 1 recurrable threat, and 3 cards in hand. Happens often enough. And always faster than your opponent can balance their hand/resources. When you lose 1-2 cards to Pox and they lose 3-6 cards, there's ultimate card advantage to be had.

The idea that Dig Through Time is one of our worst issues is a real one. "Skipping" 7 turns to get 2 cards you need is crazy over powered. Chains of Mephistopheles is probably our strongest weapon against this thing, though it's prohibitive wallet cost doesn't help many. Thankfully, it's not a staple and we've got land destruction to deal with top decked spells. I'm bringing back my 1-of Crucible to Waste/Ghost Quarter lock.

I'm not saying Pox is bad. I'm saying it is not mandatory.

Chains is/was a good "hate" card against drawing engine, but DTT IS NOT affected by Chains. How unfortunate...

[wuberg]

What would be the 'flex slots' in this established deck you speak of?

For my opinion, the 'must have' cards in traditional Pox would be:
Innocent Blood
Inquisition of Kozilek
Hymn to Tourach
Sinkhole
Smallpox
1-2 Pox
Liliana of the Veil
Wasteland

That's half a deck right there. Are we even allowed wiggle room anymore? :cry: I think the reality of a Pox deck's strength ultimately lies in the Sideboard's ability to heal a game's problems vs. the 'band aids' that others use. (one - shot temporary effects)

I should have simply written "deck" rather than "deck list" in the post above* since we're not RUG Delver with 54 fixed slots, but Ralf (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25713-Primer-Deck-Pox&p=886847&viewfull=1#post886847) and kombatkiwi (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25713-Primer-Deck-Pox&p=886955&viewfull=1#post886955) have pretty much answered the question and expressed my thoughts already.

I also wouldn't say that the card Pox is mandatory, but I would definitely add a playset of Mishra's Factory and a few Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to the list above. Furthermore, I can't come up with a good reason for not including both 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and 1-3 The Abyss and in your 75. The irony with the deck is that although a fairly good version can be built on a budget, a fully powered Pox deck certainly should have access to the not so budget-friendly stuff from Legends, including Chains of Mephistopheles and possibly Nether Void (I usually prefer Sphere of Resistance or Trinisphere here).

* Edited now.

[Hardcore]

the new planeswalkers in the Origins set are cool. Unfortunately it is not to blacks advantage. (Green ramp will be silly)

[Ralf]

Any tips for miracle / Omni as sideboard choices ?

I'm struggling right now to settle on a proper sideboard and I'm asking for help from mono black players.

I won't lie I'm not playing Pox but a mono black (home brew) which I'm very happy with so far.

Here is the list (for those interested):

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
10 Swamp
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Geralf's Messenger
2 Empty the Pits
2 Funeral Charm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Geth's Verdict
4 Soul Spike
2 Cruel Bargain
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Infernal Contract
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

SB: 1 Spinning Darkness
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Extirpate

[mykatdied]

Any tips for miracle / Omni as sideboard choices ?

I'm struggling right now to settle on a proper sideboard and I'm asking for help from mono black players.

I won't lie I'm not playing Pox but a mono black (home brew) which I'm very happy with so far.

Here is the list (for those interested):

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
10 Swamp
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Geralf's Messenger
2 Empty the Pits
2 Funeral Charm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Geth's Verdict
4 Soul Spike
2 Cruel Bargain
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Infernal Contract
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

SB: 1 Spinning Darkness
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Extirpate


Against miracles they are likely to baord out terminus because pox doesn't really run creatures. Run empty the pits, which late game can give them the 1-2 punch EoT

[OmniStrata]

I should have simply written "deck" rather than "deck list" in the post above* since we're not RUG Delver with 54 fixed slots, but Ralf (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25713-Primer-Deck-Pox&p=886847&viewfull=1#post886847) and kombatkiwi (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25713-Primer-Deck-Pox&p=886955&viewfull=1#post886955) have pretty much answered the question and expressed my thoughts already.

I also wouldn't say that the card Pox is mandatory, but I would definitely add a playset of Mishra's Factory and a few Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to the list above. Furthermore, I can't come up with a good reason for not including both 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and 1-3 The Abyss and in your 75. The irony with the deck is that although a fairly good version can be built on a budget, a fully powered Pox deck certainly should have access to the not so budget-friendly stuff from Legends, including Chains of Mephistopheles and possibly Nether Void (I usually prefer Sphere of Resistance or Trinisphere here).

* Edited now.

I say Pox is mandatory due to the slow clocks. 1/3 life means your enemy has less time to play. That and for BBB, it's a great early bomb [kills hands] or late bomb [kills lands]. Of course, if your enemy has 4 creatures on the board, Smallpox isn't 'better' but you still get the card advantage. 4 of Pox is too much though. Did you choose those two artifacts due to their mana costs or the 'can't' clauses?

Also, with the cards you've mentioned, the 'list' is effectively 40+ cards or so. I argue against Tabernacle due to traditional lists running Nether Spirit. That 1 mana upkeep is precious. :eek:

With this in mind, I guess my best top-deck killers in the sideboard will remain as 2 pithing needles and 2 of 'that other thing' which I'm still searching for. I suppose it's time to save up hard for them Chains of Mephistopeles. :cool:

[PirateKing]

The idea that Dig Through Time is one of our worst issues is a real one. "Skipping" 7 turns to get 2 cards you need is crazy over powered. Chains of Mephistopheles is probably our strongest weapon against this thing, though it's prohibitive wallet cost doesn't help many. Thankfully, it's not a staple and we've got land destruction to deal with top decked spells. I'm bringing back my 1-of Crucible to Waste/Ghost Quarter lock.

Against decks like Blade Control and other heavy users of Dig Through Time and also using Snapcaster Mage, is siding in Leyline of the Void overkill? Assuming that we're running no other graveyard hate. I'm on the fence if it's too much dedication to a card that isn't a straight up threat, but also causes us so much misery.

[Hardcore]

Better to try wreck their game plan instead.

[Kanti]

Against decks like Blade Control and other heavy users of Dig Through Time and also using Snapcaster Mage, is siding in Leyline of the Void overkill? Assuming that we're running no other graveyard hate. I'm on the fence if it's too much dedication to a card that isn't a straight up threat, but also causes us so much misery.

I would definitely bring these in against an opponent sporting Snapcaster Mage and DTT. Relic is another great option here, as it cantrips and keeps them off of DTT without having you crack it.

edit: DTT is part of their game-plan. If you can close them off of an entire game zone, then why not?

[PirateKing]

I've considered Relic, since I wouldn't run a full four in the side, there'd be one or two open slots, get some room for more variety. Not convinced totally yet, because that turn zero feels so good and it dodges Decay, I feel it's the safer card. But maybe stepping out of the comfort zone every once in a while is good, no?

[glowparty]

I've considered Relic, since I wouldn't run a full four in the side, there'd be one or two open slots, get some room for more variety. Not convinced totally yet, because that turn zero feels so good and it dodges Decay, I feel it's the safer card. But maybe stepping out of the comfort zone every once in a while is good, no?

the cantrip on relic is nice if you see draw an unwanted second. also, if it's not in your opener, it comes online a lot faster and a late leyline won't stop them from dtt. i'm playing zombies and am trying 2 relic 1 leyline of the void for now.

[Hardcore]

i have tried nihil spell bomb, which does the same thing. The reasoning was to take advantage of the combination of gy hate and cantrips, making the deck leaner and more efficient.

[wuberg]

I say Pox is mandatory due to the slow clocks. 1/3 life means your enemy has less time to play. That and for BBB, it's a great early bomb [kills hands] or late bomb [kills lands]. Of course, if your enemy has 4 creatures on the board, Smallpox isn't 'better' but you still get the card advantage. 4 of Pox is too much though. Did you choose those two artifacts due to their mana costs or the 'can't' clauses?

Also, with the cards you've mentioned, the 'list' is effectively 40+ cards or so. I argue against Tabernacle due to traditional lists running Nether Spirit. That 1 mana upkeep is precious. :eek:

With this in mind, I guess my best top-deck killers in the sideboard will remain as 2 pithing needles and 2 of 'that other thing' which I'm still searching for. I suppose it's time to save up hard for them Chains of Mephistopeles. :cool:

I would never run less than four Smallpox, but have tried zero big Pox with reasonable results which is why I don't consider it 100% mandatory. However, I do agree that it's a very powerful card and 1-2 main is pretty sweet. The reason for why I usually prefer Sphere of Resistance and/or Trinisphere over Nether Void is that they drop earlier and effectively do the same job against e.g. Storm. Nether Void does have benefits since it creates a harder lock and can't be destroyed by Abrupt Decay, but it's also trickier to time with your own resources, not to mention that it destroys The Abyss due to the World supertype.

Not running Tabernacle because you have a Nether Spirit main is silly, the same line of argument would prohibit The Abyss as well. Given that the opponent have more creatures than you, she/he will be more severely affected. Furthermore, you can stack the triggers so that you have Nether Spirit in play every second turn and Mishra's Factory is still alive and kicking.

Pithing Needle is indeed great in Pox since it can adress both artifacts and planeswalkers that are otherwise problematic for us. I've been running one main and it seldom disappoints. Oppression is a pretty fun card until you've gotten your hands on Chains. It's a somewhat different effect of course (best in a discard heavy build in my experience), but it wrecks some of the decks that you would want Chains against.

[Kanti]

i have tried nihil spell bomb, which does the same thing. The reasoning was to take advantage of the combination of gy hate and cantrips, making the deck leaner and more efficient.

I can see the reasoning for this. Relic being a two-way effect sucks.

[glowparty]

I can see the reasoning for this. Relic being a two-way effect sucks.

relic's first ability can be really useful though when it comes down early game.

[Kanti]

Yeah, when I posted that I was thinking about my Loam Pox build. I don't think I'd like Relic too much in there, but in Mono-B Pox there is no reason to run Nihil Spellbomb, Crypt, or any other cheap artifact gy hate. It keeps opponents off delve, blows up if you need it to, and cantrips.

[VonHannemark]

Newish magic player (5 years off and on) new to Legacy (a few months.) Like many others I saw Reid Duke play this deck and fell in love with it. Here's my current list and some results.



1x Nether Spirit
1x Bloodghast

4x Lilliana
4x Dark Ritual
4x Thoughtseize
4x Smallpox
3x innocent Blood
1x Pox
1x Toxic Deluge
4x Sinkhole
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Cursed Scroll
3x Crucible of Worlds

4x Mishra's Factory
2x Bojuka Bog
1x Cabal Pit
3x Urborg
4x Wasteland
10x Swamp

SB

3x Leyline
1x Gate to Phyrexia
3x Extirpate
2x Pithing Needle
3x Engineered Plague
1x Sudden Spoiling
1x Memoricide
1x Tombstalker



My overall impression of the deck so far is very positive. I will be the first to admit I'm not an amazing magic payer, still making a lot of mistakes and need to put in more reps with the deck. It does however fit my play style and every win with it is very satisfying. Sideboard is very up in the air which I'll talk about later. I've played two events so far

SCG Worcester 5/23

Game 1 Omni-Tell
My first game at a legacy tournament - was obviously nervous. Match 1 I drew crap and mulled to 6 on the play. Opened up with thoughtseize saw double show and tell. Tried to beat up his hand as best I could but he hid is show and tell with brainstorm. Hard casted Emerakul sucks, and not instant speed removal is one of the biggest problems with my build currently.

Match 2 I sided in Extirpate. Didn't really help and I was pretty lost went pretty much like game 1.

Game 2 - ANT.

I don't remember much of this match up because it went really fast. Nice opening hands both matches beat up his hand quickly and got 2 quick scoops when he had 0 cards in hand.

Game 3 UW stoneblade
Match 1 drew good opening hand turn 1 lili w/ no force to stop it. Got down stoneforge and got batterskull in hand but was never able to cast it. Recurred wasteland, he no lands in play for 5-6 turns, multiple mishra's factory beatdown.
Match 2 no SB, didn't need it got him in a pretty early lili/Crucible lock and cursed scrolled him for literally 20 damage. This guy was not happy lol.

Game 4 MUD

This was a deck I'd heard of but never really looked into. Match 1 I was lucky enough to get a nuts draw, turn 1 lili followed by sinkhole, hymn etc etc.
Match 2 I was too cocky I was 2-1 at my first Legacy event and was playing against a deck with no blue in it! I don't think I boarded anything in. Mulled down to 6 on the draw with an OK hand. turn 1 chalice set to 1, then turn 2 trinisphere. Metal worker showed up and not far behind it was Blightsteel.
Match 3, I think I boarded here but not sure what it was. Looking back should have been pithing needle for metal worker, but anyway went a lot like match 2 with a bit of a grind turns 3-6ish.

Game 5 RWU stoneforge/delver (does this have a name?)

I felt good going into this with how badly I stomped on UW stoneblade and my friends RUG delver deck I played a few days before casually. Match 1 was pretty grindy but I ended up dying to a topdeck Clique and didn't draw an answer for several turns. By the time I did he was able to get out Jitte and blitzed out a snapcaster during my endstep.
Match 2 I was feeling a little defeated here and made a huge playmistake. I saw his hand turn 1 with thoughtseize, had 2 spell pierce. Turn 2 drew dark ritual and tried to play engineered plague naming wizards... oh yeah about those spell pierces.

I played another small tournament at my local store lost game 1 to omni show, and game 2 to Lands I won't go into as much detail but I think omni is a tough matchup and lands is winnable but I drew crap both games and had him on the ropes game 2 but didnt draw a 3rd land (2nd on board after smallpox) forever!

So things I lost to the most other than poor playing on my part - hardcast Emerakul and end of my turn Marit Lage. I think I need more instant speed edict effects in the board, I like sudden spoiling too because it has split second. If they have to pass the turn back to me I should be able to do a sorcery speed sac effect.

Sorry for the long post, will check back with changes, and any suggestions on my SB!

[mykatdied]

Newish magic player (5 years off and on) new to Legacy (a few months.) Like many others I saw Reid Duke play this deck and fell in love with it. Here's my current list and some results.



1x Nether Spirit
1x Bloodghast

4x Lilliana
4x Dark Ritual
4x Thoughtseize
4x Smallpox
3x innocent Blood
1x Pox
1x Toxic Deluge
4x Sinkhole
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Cursed Scroll
3x Crucible of Worlds

4x Mishra's Factory
2x Bojuka Bog
1x Cabal Pit
3x Urborg
4x Wasteland
10x Swamp

SB

3x Leyline
1x Gate to Phyrexia
3x Extirpate
2x Pithing Needle
3x Engineered Plague
1x Sudden Spoiling
1x Memoricide
1x Tombstalker



My overall impression of the deck so far is very positive. I will be the first to admit I'm not an amazing magic payer, still making a lot of mistakes and need to put in more reps with the deck. It does however fit my play style and every win with it is very satisfying. Sideboard is very up in the air which I'll talk about later. I've played two events so far

SCG Worcester 5/23

Game 1 Omni-Tell
My first game at a legacy tournament - was obviously nervous. Match 1 I drew crap and mulled to 6 on the play. Opened up with thoughtseize saw double show and tell. Tried to beat up his hand as best I could but he hid is show and tell with brainstorm. Hard casted Emerakul sucks, and not instant speed removal is one of the biggest problems with my build currently.

Match 2 I sided in Extirpate. Didn't really help and I was pretty lost went pretty much like game 1.

Game 2 - ANT.

I don't remember much of this match up because it went really fast. Nice opening hands both matches beat up his hand quickly and got 2 quick scoops when he had 0 cards in hand.

Game 3 UW stoneblade
Match 1 drew good opening hand turn 1 lili w/ no force to stop it. Got down stoneforge and got batterskull in hand but was never able to cast it. Recurred wasteland, he no lands in play for 5-6 turns, multiple mishra's factory beatdown.
Match 2 no SB, didn't need it got him in a pretty early lili/Crucible lock and cursed scrolled him for literally 20 damage. This guy was not happy lol.

Game 4 MUD

This was a deck I'd heard of but never really looked into. Match 1 I was lucky enough to get a nuts draw, turn 1 lili followed by sinkhole, hymn etc etc.
Match 2 I was too cocky I was 2-1 at my first Legacy event and was playing against a deck with no blue in it! I don't think I boarded anything in. Mulled down to 6 on the draw with an OK hand. turn 1 chalice set to 1, then turn 2 trinisphere. Metal worker showed up and not far behind it was Blightsteel.
Match 3, I think I boarded here but not sure what it was. Looking back should have been pithing needle for metal worker, but anyway went a lot like match 2 with a bit of a grind turns 3-6ish.

Game 5 RWU stoneforge/delver (does this have a name?)

I felt good going into this with how badly I stomped on UW stoneblade and my friends RUG delver deck I played a few days before casually. Match 1 was pretty grindy but I ended up dying to a topdeck Clique and didn't draw an answer for several turns. By the time I did he was able to get out Jitte and blitzed out a snapcaster during my endstep.
Match 2 I was feeling a little defeated here and made a huge playmistake. I saw his hand turn 1 with thoughtseize, had 2 spell pierce. Turn 2 drew dark ritual and tried to play engineered plague naming wizards... oh yeah about those spell pierces.

I played another small tournament at my local store lost game 1 to omni show, and game 2 to Lands I won't go into as much detail but I think omni is a tough matchup and lands is winnable but I drew crap both games and had him on the ropes game 2 but didnt draw a 3rd land (2nd on board after smallpox) forever!

So things I lost to the most other than poor playing on my part - hardcast Emerakul and end of my turn Marit Lage. I think I need more instant speed edict effects in the board, I like sudden spoiling too because it has split second. If they have to pass the turn back to me I should be able to do a sorcery speed sac effect.

Sorry for the long post, will check back with changes, and any suggestions on my SB!

you can't needle metalworker. Mana ability. Needle doesnt stop those.

[glowparty]

uwr delver / stoneforge is called patriot aggro

[OmniStrata]

I would never run less than four Smallpox, but have tried zero big Pox with reasonable results which is why I don't consider it 100% mandatory. However, I do agree that it's a very powerful card and 1-2 main is pretty sweet. The reason for why I usually prefer Sphere of Resistance and/or Trinisphere over Nether Void is that they drop earlier and effectively do the same job against e.g. Storm. Nether Void does have benefits since it creates a harder lock and can't be destroyed by Abrupt Decay, but it's also trickier to time with your own resources, not to mention that it destroys The Abyss due to the World supertype.

Not running Tabernacle because you have a Nether Spirit main is silly, the same line of argument would prohibit The Abyss as well. Given that the opponent have more creatures than you, she/he will be more severely affected. Furthermore, you can stack the triggers so that you have Nether Spirit in play every second turn and Mishra's Factory is still alive and kicking.

Pithing Needle is indeed great in Pox since it can adress both artifacts and planeswalkers that are otherwise problematic for us. I've been running one main and it seldom disappoints. Oppression is a pretty fun card until you've gotten your hands on Chains. It's a somewhat different effect of course (best in a discard heavy build in my experience), but it wrecks some of the decks that you would want Chains against.

Excellent points. I think the biggest point I see with The Abyss is that it won't save you from a bad board position. If they have a lot of damage on the field [3+ creatures], unless your HP is high, you're more than likely dead. Tabernacle on the other hand can hit the field and BLAM, that Dredge player lost all his threats. Night of Souls' Betrayal is my high impact card that is combination board wipe and 'extirpator' for weaklings. I suppose you would find it silly, but since I like Smallpoxing/Poxing with 4 or less land, I'm paranoid with my open mana. Though Tabernacle would be more epic in a non-creature Pox deck. I've tried Uba Mask in place of Chains since it is a replacement effect, and absolutely awkward against a dredger. However, it's high mana cost does hurt a bit.

I'm glad you mentioned Oppression, though I'm not sure how it affects someone who's drawing more cards. My ultimate bane is SDT since it allows a player to essentially play with the 3 top cards in their deck in their hand (or more depending on how many open fetchlands there are). High impact permanents are the name of the game here and Pithing needle is probably my strongest weapon here. Maybe I should just go out and buy more and run 4 in my sideboard. There's always targets a plenty to needle.

[VonHannemark]

you can't needle metalworker. Mana ability. Needle doesnt stop those.

Thank you, I definitely would have made that mistake in game!

[OmniStrata]

Starcity Games Chicago is coming up mid-July. I've reverted back to my Reid-Duke flavored deck with 8 threats instead of 9, 1 Big Pox, and have swapped out my 'spell lands' and Crucible for a very special card I've found to be the ultimate top-deck killer for most of the decks in the deck-to-beat sections.

Both here and MTGSalvation.

My only hope is that luck won't force me to fight a stream of Dredge and Burn since both those deck archetypes, though rare, are 'anti-Pox' as it were.

I'll bring out my trusty gaming notepad and record all the nasty details and will post tournament report here when I can. If you're going to be there, I hope to see ya there.

[PirateKing]

I've found to be the ultimate top-deck killer for most of the decks in the deck-to-beat sections.

Spicy! Any hints?

[beez]

Are you going to bring Underworld Dreams? That seemed like it was working wellagainst Miracles for you.

[OmniStrata]

Spicy! Any hints?

The only hint I can give out:

My deck is Mono-Black Pox... :tongue: This will be my first like, 'big big' tourney so I don't want prying eyes. For Underworld Dreams, I won't be bringing it. It really doesn't matter what you draw if you can't cast it. :eek:

If you figure it out, please no talking... shhh. ^_^

[Hardcore]

Reading Carsten kotter's latest article i feel vindicated. Over a month ago i claimed at the lgs that dig though time was far better than treasure cruise. It is an insane card: you can dig for both an answer AND a threat! Discard is pretty useless against that.

My thinking is that graveyard hate in main is not good enough.
Mana denial otoh should be good. If you have few land then dtt will not be as effective.

[OmniStrata]

Reading Carsten kotter's latest article i feel vindicated. Over a month ago i claimed at the lgs that dig though time was far better than treasure cruise. It is an insane card: you can dig for both an answer AND a threat! Discard is pretty useless against that.

My thinking is that graveyard hate in main is not good enough.
Mana denial otoh should be good. If you have few land then dtt will not be as effective.

Dig through time can't be far better than treasure cruise. :tongue: If it was, it would be banned instead of Treasure Cruise. :eek:

Whoa, in magiccards.info (http://magiccards.info/query?q=treasure+cruise&v=card&s=cname), TC is banned only in Modern. :confused:

GY hate works if you can keep it empty indefinitely, so Leyline of the Void would be a mainstay. But I agree with your mana denial statement. You'll just have to draw 2 land instead of a threat/answer.

[zenitramleirdag]

The only hint I can give out:

My deck is Mono-Black Pox... :tongue: This will be my first like, 'big big' tourney so I don't want prying eyes. For Underworld Dreams, I won't be bringing it. It really doesn't matter what you draw if you can't cast it. :eek:

If you figure it out, please no talking... shhh. ^_^

i could be wrong but...
did you just buy what i think you did?! awesome!! :eek:

[echofish]

i could be wrong but...
did you just buy what i think you did?! awesome!! :eek:

Tell us, already.

[OmniStrata]

Tell us, already.

I can tell you what it's not. It's not symmetrical. It's not Nether Void, though I do wish to get it sooner or later. :tongue: I need to test it at the tourney. It's less than a month away! Have some patience. :wink:

[Charon666]

Tell us, already.

Yes, Please! :)

[Amfibolos]

Hi guys

I have recently joined the ranks of Pox players. Two years ago when I first encountered Liliana's Caress I have immediately fallen in love with discard mechanic. And the time came when I started to become interested in Legacy. Then I found Pox and you know the rest ;]

The deck I have managed to put together so far looks as follows:

Mainboard

2x Cursed Scroll
3x Dark Ritual
2x Tombstalker
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Innocent Blood
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Liliana of the Veil
2x Nether Spirit
2x Nether Void
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
2x Pox
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox

Lands

11x Swamp
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland

Sideboard

2x Chains of Mephistopheles
2x Engineered Plague
2x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Leyline of the Void
3x Pithing Needle
3x Surgical Extraction

Regarding the mainboard I, as many other players, have tried to find something that could speed things up. And for now I find Tombstalker to be quite effective.
I used to run one nether spirit but recently I've decided to find some space for a second one, mostly because many a time I was in a dire need of him, and he simply didn't show up. With one copy amongst 59 other cards he just rarely shows up to the point I felt I didn't have him at all. I have experimented with Sensei's Divining Top and I must say it helped quite a bit but only when it hit the board very early in the game. In the mid/late game it had very little impact on the game. On the other hand I'm extremely satisfied with Nether Void. This card really works wonders.
Sideboard is strictly meta dependant and the one above is my universal list. I've been thinking about a few changes as recently at my local shop I haven't had any real need to use leyline of the void. My idea is to - 3 Leylines and + 1 Engineered Plague + 1 Ensnaring Bridge + 1 The Abyss. And one more thing I've been considering to include is Black Sun's Zenith. It can wipe the board, even though it may not be able, at times, to kill goyfs or butterskuls it is still easier to defend against 1/2 goyf etc. And additionaly it serves as a shuffle effect and above all it's a recurring removal.

I will try to post any interesting things that can contribute to the topic. Let's spread the disease!

Cheers!

[OmniStrata]

Hello Amfibolos! What do you do if your GY gets jammed with creatures and you have Nether Spirits begging to come back? Old tech was Spinning Darkness to control the top 3 of your Yard but I've found Murderous Cut to be even better at keeping your GY creature free for Nether Spirit's attendance. Granted, Tombstalker can do it too. :cool:

10 win conditions. A faster clock is never bad, unless it eats into your disruption to the point where you're not disrupting enough. Why only 3 hymn to tourach?

[Amfibolos]

It is really difficult to squeeze all those useful cards in just 60 slots ^^. I have Spinning Darkness but I didn't want to swap it for cards like Innocent blood or others. I had one plus 3 IB but later I inserted Big Pox instead of SD for obvious reasons. With 2 Tombstalkers and 1 Nether spirit I had only once encountered a match where I couldn't reanimate NS. And it was a second game against miracles. The first one was quite quick cause even without Sensei's DT my opponent drew angels twice in a row :/, so for the second game we had plenty of time and it so happened that we put each other in a prison situation. My tombstalker got countered and I had enough cards to not include the spirit in the delve cost, but no tombstalker and reanimation. But for half an hour we drew and discarded thanks to Liliana. If it hadn't been for the long game, such situation wouldn't occur. It has never been an issue for me, at least so far, that is why I want to try second Nether spirit to see how this is going to work for me. The reason for only three copies of hymn is that I wanted to have 2 big Poxes, I had to find space for 2 tombstalkers, Night of Souls' Betrayal and there is one flexible slot where I had Spinning Darkness, then SDT, now I have Nether Spirit and I would also like to test Black Sun's Zenith. I could exclude Dark Rituals but the explosivness it provides sometimes is ineffable. It can speed up Nether Void or under its effect I can still cast some more expensive spells. It was rather onerous to leave one behind but I will not cut Sinkhole or smallpoxes which have greater synergy with Nether Void as a mana denial sources.

[Redkid43]

Hey all, getting back into Pox after some time.

Decided to make a pretty standard list, albeit with some flair:

1 Nether Spirit

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Dark Ritual

4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Word of Command

1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Maze of Ith
1 Rishadan Port
1 The Tabernacle at PV
1 Spawning Pool
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, TOY
4 Wasteland
8 Swamp


Word of Command has been a pet card of mine and I'm always trying to find ways to play it. It's very good against 1 card enabler decks, like Show and Tell, and cards that search libraries--Natural Order their best guy, fail to find, etc. it's good at getting cards out of their hands and tripping up their mana for a turn. You can't tap them out like Slaver, but you can make them pay the cost of the spell awkwardly or not efficently, which FEELS like a Mana Short and more denial.

Ghost Quarter lock is a favorite of mine. :)

Suggestion and comments welcomed.

[Hardcore]

wizards are fucking stupid in the head. In the Magic Origins we don't get good cards to build our decks around, but hate cards for their previous mistakes. This is
how we are supposed to handle emrakul griselbrand etc:
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/140/480/635711388819981952.png



White got a better card for that purpose by the way:http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/140/481/635711406693541737.png
Adding insult to injury

[Hardcore]

Hallowed moonlight is is playable even in main deck for all who play white. In fact it would make perfect sense to go BW pox since the card is a better diabolic edict that hit dredge, show and tell, reanimator, vial natural order etc etc etc. very hard. It is also rare and i will get a set or two least for money investment...

[OmniStrata]

wizards are fucking stupid in the head. In the Magic Origins we don't get good cards to build our decks around, but hate cards for their previous mistakes. This is
how we are supposed to handle emrakul griselbrand etc:
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/140/480/635711388819981952.png



White got a better card for that purpose by the way:http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/140/481/635711406693541737.png
Adding insult to injury

LoL. Why does blue get one of the best aggro creatures in the game?! I say we get a Liliana that's BB with two loyalty to start and a +1 that says target player sacrifices a creature! :laugh:

I agree with you though, their R&D must be on some good stuffs.

[Hardcore]

I would prefer they used the banhammer. These new cards feels like wizard CHEATS, or unwanted charity.

[Hardcore]

A pre-order listing on ebay ask 60$
for a set...

[Hardcore]

Goblingoblin warrens, lingering souls, entreat the angels...

[Charon666]

Hardcore:
I don't mean to be rude, but could you please stop posting one rant after another?
We all got your point, I guess. Spamming the Pox thread will get you nowhere.

[Hardcore]

well, it is a card that will change the meta more than anything have for a long time. It well be a boost for midrange decks, and maybe indirectly for pox?

[OmniStrata]

The only thing that'll ever help Pox indirectly is if a card pushes tempo decks to the forefront.

Our best thing to see is a turn one creature and nothing else. Threshold and other tempo style decks come to mind. Pox won't be able to devour the meta unless we end up with more players wanting to play using a minimalist style of one threat, low land count, and a few cards in hand (taking advantage of brainstorms to filter, not REAL card advantage).

For me, being greedy as I am, i want to see a 4 or less cmc permanent, either enchantment or artifact that goes along the lines of "when this on the field, players can't generate mana".

Ah, the pinnacle of land destruction! I've always loved the mechanic. It allowed me to tick people off and helped me filter the champs from the chumps... "Land kill is so stupid/cheap". I'm not a fan of playing with people who have made up rules as if it's their game. Like fighting video games where "throws are cheap" etc.

Ah, Worms of the Earth would be Godly if it was BBBBB and you couldn't pay life lolz. :laugh:

The other thing that could push Pox further would be a better Liliana, but how would they do that I wonder.

[PirateKing]

A reprint or similarly costed re-imagining of Chains, Abyss, Nether Void and Tabernacle would also assist us, as I feel lots of Pox players reach that ceiling and are unwilling to devote the capitol into narrow use cards like that.
Something like if you would draw a card other than the first on your draw step, instead you don't. Make it 2 or 3 mana, black or artifact, whatever.
Though we're talking about when MaRo dies or retires or Hasboro steps up and sees how much money they could make and rearranges WotC.

[glowparty]

A reprint or similarly costed re-imagining of Chains, Abyss, Nether Void and Tabernacle would also assist us, as I feel lots of Pox players reach that ceiling and are unwilling to devote the capitol into narrow use cards like that.
Something like if you would draw a card other than the first on your draw step, instead you don't. Make it 2 or 3 mana, black or artifact, whatever.
Though we're talking about when MaRo dies or retires or Hasboro steps up and sees how much money they could make and rearranges WotC.

its a lot worse against combo if it costs 3 mana, especially when they can still win with it out. chains of mephistopheles costs 2 mana and doesn't seem overpowered by any means. to print a card costing 3 in the vein of chains or spirit of the labyrinth, I don't see that as having an impact. i'm not sure how this variety of card could be worth a slot in my sideboard if its nature is to allow the blue mage to freely cantrip all through their turns 1-3.

maybe:

Chains of Purification
BB
enchantment

Cards can't be drawn by players except the first during his or her draw step.

Sacrifice Chains of Purification, pay 5 life: Destroy target artifact or enchantment.

[OmniStrata]

its a lot worse against combo if it costs 3 mana, especially when they can still win with it out. chains of mephistopheles costs 2 mana and doesn't seem overpowered by any means. to print a card costing 3 in the vein of chains or spirit of the labyrinth, I don't see that as having an impact. i'm not sure how this variety of card could be worth a slot in my sideboard if its nature is to allow the blue mage to freely cantrip all through their turns 1-3.

maybe:

Chains of Purification
BB
enchantment

Cards can't be drawn by players except the first during his or her draw step.

Sacrifice Chains of Purification, pay 5 life: Destroy target artifact or enchantment.

That would never fly. Black is 'by flavor design' unable to deal with artifacts and even less so with enchantments. Granted, there are a tiny few cards that could, but they require other mana. Or nastier color hosing.

[PirateKing]

Point is, the slice of black that Pox uses is all but abandoned in current card design. It'll take some serious shake ups at Wizards before anything potential useful gets printed.

[zenitramleirdag]

Point is, the slice of black that Pox uses is all but abandoned in current card design. It'll take some serious shake ups at Wizards before anything potential useful gets printed.


i agree with this..
R&D perceives land destruction as bad for the game as they think it promotes non-interactive gameplay and prevents the player on the other end from even participating in the game..
i'm just keeping my fingers crossed that someday in the future they'll give us a card that we can really use..
4 years ago, they gave us lili, and oh boy, was it helpful!!

[echofish]

The Pox community designed its own card some time ago. It was called Waste Not. What a waste...

[Macky984]

Here's my Pyro-Pox Brew... Seems decent

//Planeswalkers
3 Liliana of the Veil

//Creatures
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Bloodghast

//Spells
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Innocent Blood
1 Slaughter Games

//Other
3 Blood Moon
2 Crucible of Worlds

//Lands
8 Swamp
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Boil
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Slaughter Games

[OmniStrata]

The Pox community designed its own card some time ago. It was called Waste Not. What a waste...

I suppose the Pox community overlooked the fact that with Liliana out, smart opponents will purposely keep their hands empty in topdeck mode, not that they have a choice.

If I had a vote on the god darn card, I'd have it say more on the lines of, during your upkeep, if an opponent's hand is empty, "shit" happens. Make it BB casting cost. Or even better, on each opponent's upkeep, if their hand is empty, they sacrifice a permanent, then make it BBB :mad:

Like Skullcage, but Godly.

[Hardcore]

the new mulligan RULE will be a help.

[Chiptoon]

Has anyone thought about trying out something like Lux Cannon in the 75? Dark Ritual means it could come down as early as the second turn and it plays along with the resource denial plan of Pox.

[Hardcore]

even using DR it is turn five before you destroy any permanent, and turn nine to destroy a second one.

[zenitramleirdag]

i have to go with hardcore on this one, i think lux cannon doesn't have a place in legacy, it seems fun to use in EDH though..

for the same cost, i'd rather run serrated arrows, though i still won't..

[Hardcore]

lol, yeah, serrated arrows:-) That was long long time ago.

[zenitramleirdag]

lol, yeah, serrated arrows:-) That was long long time ago.

and so are most of the cards in our deck.. :laugh:

[OmniStrata]

the new mulligan RULE will be a help.

SCRY 1?!
Whoa. Me and my crew always scryed as we mulliganed just to see if it was worth it. Most of the time, we're like "bah, good thing I'm gonna mulligan" and we therefore shuffled. Now we get to scry for realz... 0_0.

Bye bye Schrodinger's cat!

[Kanti]

Check it out, in the trial winner's list. Pretty cool stuff, though I'd be tempted to fit a Horizon Canopy in there for powered draws.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplil15/trial-winners-grand-prix-lille-2015-2015-07-04

Planeswalker (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

Creature (2)
1 Vengeful Pharaoh 1 Nether Spirit

Sorcery (16)
4 Smallpox 3 Inquisition of Kozilek 3 Life from the Loam 2 Innocent Blood 2 Hymn to Tourach 1 Thoughtseize 1 Raven's Crime
Instant (9)

3 Entomb 3 Crop Rotation 3 Abrupt Decay
Artifact (1)

1 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantment (2)
2 Pernicious Deed
Land (27)

4 Verdant Catacombs 3 Bayou 3 Wasteland 3 Mishra's Factory 2 Thespian's Stage 2 Swamp 2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale 1 Cabal Pit 1 Forest 1 Marsh Flats 1 Windswept Heath 1 Bojuka Bog 1 Dark Depths 1 Barren Moor
60 Cards

Sideboard (14)
1 Sensei's Divining Top 1 Barren Moor 1 Extirpate 1 Coffin Purge 2 Massacre 2 Chains of Mephistopheles 1 Engineered Explosives 1 Krosan Grip 2 Sphere of Resistance 2 Trinisphère

[beez]

That's a nice deck. Good to see a Loam Pox pop up again. I've always wanted to use Vengeful Pharaoh, but I guess I never had it tuned right in testing I guess, opting for a Bloodghast instead, but maybe I should give the Pharaoh another run.

and a Coffin Purge sighting! That looks pretty nice with Loam.

[pettdan]

I can actually tell you where that list started out. Late November last year Beez and JrEdelstein posted some similar decklists (browsing the thread it seems like it should be them), I built one and shortly after lent it to a friend who liked it, built it himself and have been playing and tweaking it ever since. I think the Pharoah tech may come from here too..

[kombatkiwi]

and a Coffin Purge sighting! That looks pretty nice with Loam.
It has a bit of value when you randomly mill it but don't forget you can instant-bin it with Entomb too.

[jredelstein]

I can actually tell you where that list started out. Late November last year Beez and JrEdelstein posted some similar decklists (browsing the thread it seems like it should be them), I built one and shortly after lent it to a friend who liked it, built it himself and have been playing and tweaking it ever since. I think the Pharoah tech may come from here too..

It was not me playing but it seems like a very familiar list and almost definitely was inspired in part by this thread. I'd be interested to hear from the player on their thoughts. I want to make sure I have a solid list for Legacy Champs next month and GP Seattle in November.

I have tried Vengeful Pharaoh in the past as it is a great entomb target and not having to draw it because of Loam is great but the fact that you have to take damage from the attacking creature was too big of a down side for me but at the time sneak and show was huge so taking a hit from Emrakul or Griselbrand is not really what pharaoh would be good for. (Maybe I'll have to buy a Japanese Foil Vengeful Pharaoh :)

[echofish]

The only hint I can give out:

My deck is Mono-Black Pox... :tongue: This will be my first like, 'big big' tourney so I don't want prying eyes. For Underworld Dreams, I won't be bringing it. It really doesn't matter what you draw if you can't cast it. :eek:

If you figure it out, please no talking... shhh. ^_^

Are you going to tell us now? Also do we get a report?

[Chiptoon]

Are you going to tell us now? Also do we get a report?

My guess would be Chalice of the Void if Nether Void has already been ruled out. A turn one consisting of Dark Ritual into Inquisition into Chalice for 1 seems pretty nasty.

EDIT: Actually after thinking about it now I'm leaning towards Contamination.

[Toxboy]

It was not me playing but it seems like a very familiar list and almost definitely was inspired in part by this thread. I'd be interested to hear from the player on their thoughts. I want to make sure I have a solid list for Legacy Champs next month and GP Seattle in November.

I have tried Vengeful Pharaoh in the past as it is a great entomb target and not having to draw it because of Loam is great but the fact that you have to take damage from the attacking creature was too big of a down side for me but at the time sneak and show was huge so taking a hit from Emrakul or Griselbrand is not really what pharaoh would be good for. (Maybe I'll have to buy a Japanese Foil Vengeful Pharaoh :)

Hi, I'm the person who actually played the list (Teodor sundberg and not suntberg) and it is Correct that i got inspiration from this Thread by proxy and i can say there been some mistakes in writing down the sideboard, the Two things are 1 enginered plague instead of enginered explosives, the other is that i have a third hymn to tourach in the sideboard.

The matches i hand in the trial was, grixis delver, 12 post, mud, jund and deathblade. Out of which i would say 12post and deathblade are my best match ups. I went 4-1 later in the tournament and after that IT went downhill and i droped after 5-3. I had Two Losses vs storm which i wouldn't count as a bad match up but i could have kept better hands and maybe gone lighter on my sideboard vs DnT since the current lists at my local meta has adapted to my deck and at the tournament it didnt Even feel close.

My third loss was vs miracles which I'm uncertain still if it's a bad matchup but i definetely need to tune my board vs IT and for the moment I'm thinking going for up to 4 hymn in my 75 and a null Rod in side in favor of the sensei's top there and swapping out a massacre for a maelstrom pulse.

In hindsight i would say the card Im most dissapointed with is chains of mephistopheles which should at most be a 1 of, IT simply doesn't do enough, quickly enough vs combo and i already have a good matchup vs decks that it punishes the most, which is blade and delver, dig being the best card doesn't really help Either.

I would love to have some feedback on the list and i can give further explanation for some card choices if people want me to, vengeful pharao, singelton top and maybe some tweaked Numbers.

[Kanti]

Can you see yourself dropping a Crop Rotation? 3 seems a high number, so I would like some explanation here. Also the obvious how was Pharaoh?

What changes, if any, other than Chains would you make? And if you are bringing down Chains to a 1-of might you be better off running something else? Also, something I don't get is the Top in the sb. I figure two Tops is better vs Miracles and other grindier matches, but this deck is so grindy already it might be worth it to main-board it. 1-of Top seems in the main-board seems obvious though, very nice choice.

Basically, based on reading what you wrote, how would you feel on -1 Crop Rotation, +1 Top, and in the sb -1 Chains, -1 Top, +2 TBA? Also, what do you think off adding a 1-of Horizon Canopy for late-game draw action?

[Hardcore]

In mono-B my experience is that two, or more, tops lead to excessive use early game. Or in other words: mana is spent on top activation rather than spell casting.

[Kanti]

Mono-B versions don't run 27 lands though. Very different lists we are talking about.

[Toxboy]

Can you see yourself dropping a Crop Rotation? 3 seems a high number, so I would like some explanation here. Also the obvious how was Pharaoh?

What changes, if any, other than Chains would you make? And if you are bringing down Chains to a 1-of might you be better off running something else? Also, something I don't get is the Top in the sb. I figure two Tops is better vs Miracles and other grindier matches, but this deck is so grindy already it might be worth it to main-board it. 1-of Top seems in the main-board seems obvious though, very nice choice.

Basically, based on reading what you wrote, how would you feel on -1 Crop Rotation, +1 Top, and in the sb -1 Chains, -1 Top, +2 TBA? Also, what do you think off adding a 1-of Horizon Canopy for late-game draw action?

I have tried the Numbers and i liked the 3 crop the best, basicaly all lands are eligable to fetch and IT gives much better game vs reanimator game 1, the 5 Biggest targets are, a fetch just to get value with loam, in response to wasteland or getting one to blow up key lands, mishra's factory, bojuka bog and lastly parts for the dark depths combo, I usually feel you can board out 1 though vs decks with 4 fow and no Wastelands.

The pharao was in the sideboard but i noticed IT worked Much better in the Main, since i all but given up a fair amount of game 1 vs combo and in most matchups you usually kill two dudes and then cast it which almost no nonwhite deck can handle(i think the sideboard gives you an edge and i usually win vs storm but i was pretty unlucky in the tournament), some decks also pack exesscive gravehate and boarding it out can usually be pretty nice Even vs some fair decks.

I don't like the double top Main, since it just there to give you a small chance to draw IT vs miracle since IT will usually go 20 draws into the deck before the end. Also null road would be more awkward if i had more tops, but i think the number of tops will be more of a meta call, i would say its all but worthless vs combo in your opening but if miracle stays as big And combo goes away more IT could be very nice. Will look further into it.

For the Canopy i think barren moor is a superior choice since without mox diamonds and exploration to cheat more mana into play, land drops is a serious resorce for the deck, Moreso than Cards in hand.

The Main changes are null Rod, maelstrom and more 1 mana Discard to give more %vs combo and control, since i after this weekend believe fair matchups to be what this deck will always beat if you play correctly, i easily beat many decks on the back of decent 4-5 card hands. I beat DnT on a 7 land start hand as well.

[Kanti]

What are the benefits of Vengeful Pharaoh over say Darkblast? Do you use Pharaoh to beat in the late game?

Also, have you though of going something like -1 Loam, +1 Entomb, coupled with a change of -3 IOK, +3 Cabal Therapy for Entomb>Nether Spirit + Therapy fun? Might make the discard package a little bit stronger. Also, since the deck is 2-colors why not try to squeeze in the 4th Wasteland?

[Toxboy]

What are the benefits of Vengeful Pharaoh over say Darkblast? Do you use Pharaoh to beat in the late game?

Also, have you though of going something like -1 Loam, +1 Entomb, coupled with a change of -3 IOK, +3 Cabal Therapy for Entomb>Nether Spirit + Therapy fun? Might make the discard package a little bit stronger. Also, since the deck is 2-colors why not try to squeeze in the 4th Wasteland?

I like the cabal Therapy package, i am not sure if it's better the 3 inqusition though, When i become a better legacy player i might be up for it but just now i think i need to be better with it before i play it.

Darkblast simply doesn't kille x/2+ and you can't underestimate the Power of it killing a creature if it hits liliana, its rarely stuck in your hand as well and it can also just sit in your graveyard for a long time and you're not obligated to point it out until neccessary i.e. you or liliana are dealt damage and yes, a usally 3 turn clock is very good in the format so i get to beat down with him.

I like the 3 loam and 3 entomb, it's usally correct to get life from The loam but to slog though allt of counters the best way is to draw it naturally, not to mention entomb is Card disadvantage until you actually resolve your loam.

The mana Base is
Black
6 fetch, 2 urborg, 2 basic, 3 utility Lands 3 bayous
Giving you 16 black sources
Green
6 fetch, 1 basic, 3 bayou
Giving you 10 green
You also have 2 thespian's stage which Will fix mana in a pinch (usally double black)
I think this is the minimum amount to have since you watt to use your mana Every turn and if you only got bayou as color producer in the Dark you can keep it knowing you wont Lively run out of black. We can't skimp more without adding blue.
So i think the 4th wasteland would randomly lose us more games the win it

[jredelstein]

I like the cabal Therapy package, i am not sure if it's better the 3 inqusition though, When i become a better legacy player i might be up for it but just now i think i need to be better with it before i play it.

Darkblast simply doesn't kille x/2+ and you can't underestimate the Power of it killing a creature if it hits liliana, its rarely stuck in your hand as well and it can also just sit in your graveyard for a long time and you're not obligated to point it out until neccessary i.e. you or liliana are dealt damage and yes, a usally 3 turn clock is very good in the format so i get to beat down with him.

I like the 3 loam and 3 entomb, it's usally correct to get life from The loam but to slog though allt of counters the best way is to draw it naturally, not to mention entomb is Card disadvantage until you actually resolve your loam.

The mana Base is
Black
6 fetch, 2 urborg, 2 basic, 3 utility Lands 3 bayous
Giving you 16 black sources
Green
6 fetch, 1 basic, 3 bayou
Giving you 10 green
You also have 2 thespian's stage which Will fix mana in a pinch (usally double black)
I think this is the minimum amount to have since you watt to use your mana Every turn and if you only got bayou as color producer in the Dark you can keep it knowing you wont Lively run out of black. We can't skimp more without adding blue.
So i think the 4th wasteland would randomly lose us more games the win it

I agree with a lot of what you've said in the last couple posts. I will point out that Chains of Mephistopheles is very similar to Mother of Runes in that you don't realize how good it is. All we know is that our opponent has cards in hand but that fact that it is brainstorm or ponder or they can't draw with their top when they want to we usually never know.

I really like Cabal Therapy as an entomb target, The first entomb usually gets a Loam but being able to entomb for a discard spell be it cabal therapy or a bloodghast to flashback cabal therapy has won me a lot of games. I have also gone turn one Inquisition into turn 2 cabal therapy, play Mishra factory activate and flashback cabal therapy to get 3 or more cards of my choice from my opponents hand by turn 2. I also don't play thoughtseize because I find that the 2 life is more important than the extra card selection.

I agree Maelstrom Pulse is a good card against Miracles but the card I have liked the most lately for that match-up is Garruk Relentless. Council's Judgment is usually their only answer and they tend to use that on Liliana. I do play both Maelstrom Pulse and Garruk currently.

I will also point out the darkblast does kill x/2s it is just harder usually involving darkblasting during your upkeep and then dredging to do it again. Cabal Pit can also help there.

I actually like 2 Sensei's Tops we have so many ways to get a fresh top 3 with Loam, Entomb, Crop Rotation, Fetchlands and I find that games with top are so much easier than games without that I am ok with sometimes drawing a second (the second top can always be cashed in for a card before a shuffle). OmniStrata likes to say that if it isn't a threat or killing something than it doesn't belong in Pox (usually in reference to tutors) but that could be an argument for less Tops.

[Toxboy]

I agree with a lot of what you've said in the last couple posts. I will point out that Chains of Mephistopheles is very similar to Mother of Runes in that you don't realize how good it is. All we know is that our opponent has cards in hand but that fact that it is brainstorm or ponder or they can't draw with their top when they want to we usually never know.

I really like Cabal Therapy as an entomb target, The first entomb usually gets a Loam but being able to entomb for a discard spell be it cabal therapy or a bloodghast to flashback cabal therapy has won me a lot of games. I have also gone turn one Inquisition into turn 2 cabal therapy, play Mishra factory activate and flashback cabal therapy to get 3 or more cards of my choice from my opponents hand by turn 2. I also don't play thoughtseize because I find that the 2 life is more important than the extra card selection.

I agree Maelstrom Pulse is a good card against Miracles but the card I have liked the most lately for that match-up is Garruk Relentless. Council's Judgment is usually their only answer and they tend to use that on Liliana. I do play both Maelstrom Pulse and Garruk currently.

I will also point out the darkblast does kill x/2s it is just harder usually involving darkblasting during your upkeep and then dredging to do it again. Cabal Pit can also help there.

I actually like 2 Sensei's Tops we have so many ways to get a fresh top 3 with Loam, Entomb, Crop Rotation, Fetchlands and I find that games with top are so much easier than games without that I am ok with sometimes drawing a second (the second top can always be cashed in for a card before a shuffle). OmniStrata likes to say that if it isn't a threat or killing something than it doesn't belong in Pox (usually in reference to tutors) but that could be an argument for less Tops.

I think pharao is better entomb target as well, since Darkblast technically can kill a delver or similar x/2 i think it's better to use it and take damage than to use 3 Cards, Entomb, Darkblast, darkblast.

I have Come to like garruk less Ever since miracles starten playing more creatures, since he randomly does nothing vs clique and they got council's Judgment he sometimes doesn't impact the board which we can't afford.

I think cabal therapy is fine as a 1 of but i almost always rather entomb raven's crime.

I think your point about chains of mephistopheles is True, but it doesn't do enough vs miracles to constitute a 2-of and The delver and bladen match-up is already very much in out favor for it to matter.

The change i currently made to the trials list is.

-1 innocent blood from main to sideboard, take in vs fair matchups.
+1 hymn to tourach main

Sideboard
-2 chains of mephistopheles
-1 top
-1 massacre

+ 1 thoughtseize or cabal therapy (probably thoughtseize)
+ 1 null rod
+ 1 Maelstrom pulse
+ 1 innocent blood

I will probably look into moving Maelstrom main and fittting in another top, but for the moment i think null rod is better also having 1 chains inspelad of the 4th hymn in sideboard

[OmniStrata]

The tournament is July 18, 2015. The Legacy event is Starcitygames Chicago on July 19 (Sunday). I'll be bringing my trusty notebook for da details. Yes, of course I'll provide my tournament report. For now:

Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
2 (secret tech topdeck killer/the autoscooper) :tongue:
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
3 Relic of Progenitus

I've decided to return Crucible of Worlds to my maindeck and reduce my total *secret tech* cards to 2 instead of 3. That Crucible should help and I can remove my Night of Souls' Betrayal and 1-of main deck plague if my enemy is not trying to swarm me. Like RUG Threshold or Combo decks or Omni-show. My favorite learning experience with this deck is figuring out the Sideboarding. :cool:

[Kanti]

I think pharao is better entomb target as well, since Darkblast technically can kill a delver or similar x/2 i think it's better to use it and take damage than to use 3 Cards, Entomb, Darkblast, darkblast.

I have Come to like garruk less Ever since miracles starten playing more creatures, since he randomly does nothing vs clique and they got council's Judgment he sometimes doesn't impact the board which we can't afford.

I think cabal therapy is fine as a 1 of but i almost always rather entomb raven's crime.

I think your point about chains of mephistopheles is True, but it doesn't do enough vs miracles to constitute a 2-of and The delver and bladen match-up is already very much in out favor for it to matter.

The change i currently made to the trials list is.

-1 innocent blood from main to sideboard, take in vs fair matchups.
+1 hymn to tourach main

Sideboard
-2 chains of mephistopheles
-1 top
-1 massacre

+ 1 thoughtseize or cabal therapy (probably thoughtseize)
+ 1 null rod
+ 1 Maelstrom pulse
+ 1 innocent blood

I will probably look into moving Maelstrom main and fittting in another top, but for the moment i think null rod is better also having 1 chains inspelad of the 4th hymn in sideboard

But Darkblast can help you Dredge. I was testing the list with Therapies instead of IOK, with -1 Innocent Blood, -1 Crop Rotation, +1 Darkblast, +1 Entomb, though after seeing the GP list and reading the Aggro Loam thread I really want to try to cut down to 2 LftL, especially when I run 4 Entombs. I would probably test the 3rd Hymn in this slot, which would leaves tons of room in the sb.

Anyways, the discard worked out just like I imagined. t1 I hit off an EOT Entomb>Nether Spirit, and I untapped into Therapy>sac Nether Spirit>Therapy on t2, which just neutered his hand. I know it might seem like Magical Christmas Land, but it's really just two cards so I imagine it to come up often enough. It's not the ability to fetch the Therapy with Entomb, because yeah, at that point Raven's Crime might just be better, but more the ability to set up double-Therapy turns with Nether Spirit.

If you were to keep Innocent Blood main, what do you think of the 1/1 split with Darkblast, keeping Pharaoh in the main? More dredge, and more ways to keep pesky tokens off the board? Also the obvious Darkblast, dredge, Darkblast for x/2's, like you mentioned.

[Toxboy]

But Darkblast can help you Dredge. I was testing the list with Therapies instead of IOK, with -1 Innocent Blood, -1 Crop Rotation, +1 Darkblast, +1 Entomb, though after seeing the GP list and reading the Aggro Loam thread I really want to try to cut down to 2 LftL, especially when I run 4 Entombs. I would probably test the 3rd Hymn in this slot, which would leaves tons of room in the sb.

Anyways, the discard worked out just like I imagined. t1 I hit off an EOT Entomb>Nether Spirit, and I untapped into Therapy>sac Nether Spirit>Therapy on t2, which just neutered his hand. I know it might seem like Magical Christmas Land, but it's really just two cards so I imagine it to come up often enough. It's not the ability to fetch the Therapy with Entomb, because yeah, at that point Raven's Crime might just be better, but more the ability to set up double-Therapy turns with Nether Spirit.

If you were to keep Innocent Blood main, what do you think of the 1/1 split with Darkblast, keeping Pharaoh in the main? More dredge, and more ways to keep pesky tokens off the board? Also the obvious Darkblast, dredge, Darkblast for x/2's, like you mentioned.

It could all work, i think the cabal Therapy is better against a known meta but in the Dark i rather always have the IOK i Believe in playing with the numbers but you always want to hit something and it's not that important what it actually is. I don't Believe the darkblast to do nearly enough in the matchups its supposed to be good against and what tokens are you actually afraid of as a Pox deck the 3 crop rotation will leave you with 4 tabernacle available. If I have tabernacle and they have pyromancer i will win that match 70-80% unders they get out fast under it. The mentor is very similar except if they have enough Lands.

This is my philpsiophy at least, i completly discarded the card since i think cabal Pit is better and is also a land.

[kingsmooch]

The tournament is July 18, 2015. The Legacy event is Starcitygames Chicago on July 19 (Sunday). I'll be bringing my trusty notebook for da details. Yes, of course I'll provide my tournament report. For now:

Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
2 (secret tech topdeck killer/the autoscooper) :tongue:
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
3 Relic of Progenitus

I've decided to return Crucible of Worlds to my maindeck and reduce my total *secret tech* cards to 2 instead of 3. That Crucible should help and I can remove my Night of Souls' Betrayal and 1-of main deck plague if my enemy is not trying to swarm me. Like RUG Threshold or Combo decks or Omni-show. My favorite learning experience with this deck is figuring out the Sideboarding. :cool:

First time posting, I'm running Pox at SCG Chicago as well. Sounds like you have a secret weapon, excited to see what that turns out to be. Get Pox to top 8:cool::cool::cool:

[rlesko]

The tournament is July 18, 2015. The Legacy event is Starcitygames Chicago on July 19 (Sunday). I'll be bringing my trusty notebook for da details. Yes, of course I'll provide my tournament report. For now:

Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
2 (secret tech topdeck killer/the autoscooper) :tongue:
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
3 Relic of Progenitus

I've decided to return Crucible of Worlds to my maindeck and reduce my total *secret tech* cards to 2 instead of 3. That Crucible should help and I can remove my Night of Souls' Betrayal and 1-of main deck plague if my enemy is not trying to swarm me. Like RUG Threshold or Combo decks or Omni-show. My favorite learning experience with this deck is figuring out the Sideboarding. :cool:

Is the tech card from Tempest Block?

[OmniStrata]

Is the tech card from Tempest Block?

Even better, it's from the most overpowered block ever! :eek: Just give it two weeks, I'll have a tourney report asap. Since this is going to be a giant event, it'll probably be more annoyingly large if anything.

[jredelstein]

Even better, it's from the most overpowered block ever! :eek: Just give it two weeks, I'll have a tourney report asap. Since this is going to be a giant event, it'll probably be more annoyingly large if anything.

Annoyingly large? it is a 5k IQ not a GP

[rlesko]

Even better, it's from the most overpowered block ever! :eek: Just give it two weeks, I'll have a tourney report asap. Since this is going to be a giant event, it'll probably be more annoyingly large if anything.

Ah, I think I know the card ;)

[Maikhell]

Ah, I think I know the card ;)

Oh man, this guessing game is contaminating the thread... totally contaminating it. Am I right? :wink:

[beez]

Urza's was most powerful block.

Cantrip decks could find your tech rather Oppressive.

[Hardcore]

Thanks to Omnistrata for making me look at Urza block again.

Rain of Filth seem just outright better than Dark Ritual.
I will lose my lands but that may be what i want to do. For example when playing Delve effects like Empty the Pits.

[Maikhell]

Dark Ritual already is one of the worst cards in a control/midrange shell of pox. Rain of Filth is even worse. I don't think you would like to put all your eggs in a (fragile) basket called Empty the Pits.

[OmniStrata]

Annoyingly large? it is a 5k IQ not a GP

You'll have to excuse me if my sense of scale isn't as grand as yours... :frown:

Rain of Filth would be for that Empty the Pits combo finish, sorta, but I highly doubt developed decks would refuse to sideboard out GY hate for you. I still like the fact that Pox doesn't need to focus on GY to be effective.

Though cutting off the GY will lead to some minor injuries: no wasteland loops, no Nether Spirit usage, but unlike Dredge, Loam, etc., Pox won't become useless.

[jredelstein]

You'll have to excuse me if my sense of scale isn't as grand as yours... :frown:


I am glad you are so excited for the 5k! I have mostly been disappointed by them because it means I get to play less Legacy on a larger scale.

We are definitely spoiled in the North East with more large legacy events than anywhere in the world other than Europe. It just surprised me because SCGs new Open Schedule has reduced the number of good sized legacy events each year. 5k IQs are almost always smaller than the Legacy Opens that would happen weekly last year.

I would highly recommend travelly to a Legacy GP if you can afford the time and money. GPNJ last year and GPDC the year before were 2 of the most fun events I've been to (even if I had horrible luck at both). The North American Legacy GP this year is in Seattle in November I believe, I am doing what I can to fly out for that one. (that is my wife's birthday though so that makes it even harder)

[Hardcore]

Rain of filth would be a one ,or two, of cards.
Should i have it in hand when playing heavy spells then it's a bonus.
As for gy hate then that is getting rarer these days. Dredge is not a common encounter.

[rlesko]

Oh man, this guessing game is contaminating the thread... totally contaminating it. Am I right? :wink:

Nope ;)

[Hardcore]

i have occasionally been toying with the idea of running four each of Extirpate and Surgical Extraction, in main deck.
(I would use a [Dromars] discard shell for this, of course.) There is some community experience of running one or two occasionally. It seems these experiments show them flawed by not affecting the board state (and eventually being deleted from the list).
That is an important point to consider in deck building. otoh there are other cards with the same draw back, like all pure discard cards and mana boosts.
So, what would a barrage of exile spells do? I am not sure and welcome input.

[PirateKing]

There was a UB deck I saw in new & developmental that was just Surgical Extraction, Extirpate & Snapcaster Mage plus discard and counterspells. It was Poxy in the way it neutered your opponent so your 10 turn clock could get you there. Also seemed Poxy in that I'm sure it was absolutely no fun to play against. I haven't played with or against it personally, but it showed there are those who are.

[Claymore]

Secret tech is likely

Damping Engine
Noetic Scales
Oppression
Smokestack


Of those, I like Noetic Scales a lot (Goodbye Entreat and Marit Lage, but I think Pox wins with Lage anyway), but my guess is Smokestack to play fantastically alongside Crucible of Worlds. Some fringe Lands decks are playing Smokestack to troll the Miracles matchup. None of these really play that great against Omni besides Oppression, but I don't know the Pox-Omni matchup well enough to say one way or the other.

I don't think it's Damping Engine but it's a pretty lol card.

[Hardcore]

There was a UB deck I saw in new & developmental that was just Surgical Extraction, Extirpate & Snapcaster Mage plus discard and counterspells. It was Poxy in the way it neutered your opponent so your 10 turn clock could get you there. Also seemed Poxy in that I'm sure it was absolutely no fun to play against. I haven't played with or against it personally, but it showed there are those who are.
Thanks! I'll check it out for inspiration.

[Hardcore]

I am not afraid of life loss, and could play Death Wish. The question is: are there any potential SB targets worth wishing for?

[Toxboy]

Also curious, since I'm playing the loam version of pox and the match ups I find to be the hardest are really fast combo decks and maveric with Miracles being a tight matchup where you have the edge if you don't make mistakes or if they play the new mentor version.

what's the hard match-ups for the monoblack version? what do you have the most sideboard against? are there any match-ups you have just given up on?

[OmniStrata]

i have occasionally been toying with the idea of running four each of Extirpate and Surgical Extraction, in main deck.
(I would use a [Dromars] discard shell for this, of course.) There is some community experience of running one or two occasionally. It seems these experiments show them flawed by not affecting the board state (and eventually being deleted from the list).
That is an important point to consider in deck building. otoh there are other cards with the same draw back, like all pure discard cards and mana boosts.
So, what would a barrage of exile spells do? I am not sure and welcome input.

Multiple exiles spells help you overpower control decks that run less than 3 different win conditions. If a control deck is running like, 12+ different win conditions, something's amiss. It also lets you ruin tutor decks that smirk as they set their deck with their winning card on top, only to cry delicious tears after an Extirpate removes a fetchland from their yard and their 'game winner' is shuffled elsewhere.

It is true they are flawed in that they don't affect the board state, but if your opponent is running say, 8 win cards consisting of 4 "game winners" each, then 2 extirpates and blam, they can't win.

[OmniStrata]

Also curious, since I'm playing the loam version of pox and the match ups I find to be the hardest are really fast combo decks and maveric with Miracles being a tight matchup where you have the edge if you don't make mistakes or if they play the new mentor version.

what's the hard match-ups for the monoblack version? what do you have the most sideboard against? are there any match-ups you have just given up on?

NEVER GIVE UP! :mad:

Mono black traditionally can't deal with artifacts or enchantments. Some whip out the Powder Kegs and Ratchet Bombs to deal with problems or even Dystopia can help destroy those darn Detention Spheres and Leyline of Sanctities. In my case, my board is designed to deal with GY strategies and creatures. I love my Hymn to Tourachs. Ensnaring Bridge is awesome in that it stops Show and Tell to a degree, all tribals, and even Dredge.

Burn is a problem, but if you can prevent them from casting their spells, you should be fine. Initially, I ran Sun Drop in the anti-burn slot for my Sideboard, but then I realize, SB real estate is too valuable to place a card useful only against 1 deck.

[Hardcore]

Also versus Burn cards drawn, and turns played, are much the same thing. A hymn to tourach is a two turn timewalk when you force discard of two burn spells, same with an healing salve. This is what make casting pox viable vs burn. Consider situation where the opponent is on the draw, playing land and goblin guide with haste. Next turn you play land, dark ritual, pox. You go from 18 to 12 life, kills his guide, land, and force discard of two of his five cards in hands.
You yourself will have 3-4 cards left in hand depending on the result of the GG attack. A discarded nether spirit or bloodghast gives you the edge now.
Granted there are better times to pox but this was an illustration on the effectiveness of discard vs burn.

[Countertoplol]

Just curious, what's your list look like Hardcore?

[Hardcore]

it is too much in flux to be of any help.
What is there always are four pox and bloodghasts. Almost equally untouchable are Hymn to tourach and Bloodsoaked champion.

[Charon666]

Sorcery (24)
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Pox
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
2x Thoughtseize

Instant (1)
1x Empty the Pits

Land (24)
1x Cabal Pit
4x Marsh Flats
4x Mishra's Factory
6x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Planeswalker (4)
4x Liliana of the Veil

Artifact (7)
2x Cursed Scroll
1x Haunted Plate Mail
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard (15)
3x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle
3x Ratchet Bomb
2x Toxic Deluge

New iteration of my list. I'm trying to find a more consistent list. I cut Dark Ritual and Crucible of Worlds. Running 6 1cc discards and our beloved deck's namesake again. Also I opted for a 4th top.
I'm unsure about Haunted Plate Mail and Empty the Pits. I don't know if I can afford the 4cc with 6 pox effects and no dark ritual/crucible. I need to write a programm to calculate this for me :D

Edit:
I did some math (well my computer did it):
here are some results:


4cc cards
pox effects
lands
avg turns till cast
deviation


2
6
20
19
11


4
6
20
14
8


8
6
20
11
6


4
8
20
15
8


4
6
24
12
7


4
8
24
13
7



Personally, I don't like those numbers.
Now I'll add Dark Ritual into the deck, lets see, what the numbers do



4cc cards
pox effects
lands
rituals
avg turns till cast
deviation


2
6
20
4
17
12


4
6
20
4
10
7


8
6
20
4
7
4


4
8
20
4
11
8


4
6
24
4
10
7


4
8
24
4
10
7



The numbers suggest, that dark ritual count and pox count have a small effect, when running only 2 big cards.
when running 4 or more big cards (like 2 nether void, 1 NoSB and 1 HPM) using dark ritual theoretically enables you to cast those cards more consistently (4 turns early)
Important: those numbers do not take into account using top and shuffles, or holding back on pox effects, in order to keep lands alive, or discarding cards with poxes and lili, or even keeping a good starting 7.

for me, this means, I'll cut my 2 4cc cards. without rituals and a consistent way to find those 2 copies, the deck is just too random.

btw: I have some more numbers, you might be interested in:


cards to find
avg turns till found
standard deviation


2
19
14


4
11
10


8
6
6


12
4
4



this data shows, on what turn on average and with what deviation you'll find specific cards/effects. eg: when running 8 pox effects, you'll draw at least 1 after 6 turns, with a standard deviation of 6 turns.
might help you chosing sideboard options, or cards in general, when trying to build a consistent deck.
consider this: if you run less than 4 of a specific effect, those cards need to win you the game if you draw them. if their effect is too weak, it might not be worth to reduce the consistency of your deck.

maybe all this information is already known. If not: I hope it helps you. It did help me.

[Hardcore]

"if you run less than 4 of a specific effect, those cards need to win you the game if you draw them. if their effect is too weak, it might not be worth to reduce the consistency of your deck"
When i run two of one card it is often because they are not fun finding in the starting hand.
otoh, this is like saying just what you did above, right?
We cannot beat blue for consistency, because of... you know,
and have to rely on other strategies to achieve that result. Playing four of relevant cards is one way. (This is the overloaded principle applied to card access.)

Another good tool is flexibility.
This is what you get when, for example, you cut 1cc cards number five and six, with something like ratchet bombs.
This leads us to the point of diminishing returns, for each card. Three tombstalkers is probably what is viable (even in a deck with cantrips). Number four is better cut for something else. Not necessarily
ratchet bombs:-)
Underlying my thinking here is the desire to have proper mana base and enough of good threats. Thus i think about blocks.

[Hardcore]

Just curious, what's your list look like Hardcore?

Latest draft is this one. Braids for fun!

3 tombstalker
3 geralf's messenger
3 bloodsoaked champion
4 bloodghast
3 the rack
4 dark ritual
3 chalice of the void
4 Pox
4 hymn to tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 braids, cabal minion
3 gitaxian probe
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
11 Swamp

[Sibelius]

Thought I would add my tuppence worth. This is the listIi was using when I last played pox, Just after TC was axed if I remember correctly.
I felt the maindeck was pretty much perfect

4 Dark Ritual
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Liliana
4 Innocent Blood
2 Surgical extraction
2 Chains of mephestopholies
1 Nether Spirit
3 Cursed Scroll

2 Urborg
4 Mishras Factory
4 Wasteland
14 Swamps

I may have cut 1 swamp for another Surgical, cant remember

Side
3 Nethervoid
2 EPlague
2 Perish
1 Surgical
1 Diabolic Edict
some other stuff

The maindeck was pretty well thought out. It is slow yes but is very resilient and redundant.

[OmniStrata]

The SCG Chicago Legacy IQ is OVER! And with it, some of my dignity! However, I've finally experienced 8 rounds of swiss [yark! :cry:] in a very large open field over my smaller local legacy tourneys.

Some of you guessed correctly, "CONTAMINATION!!" is correct. How did it fare? IT DID BEAUTIFULLY! It does NOT need a tutor, it will save your ass when you're getting your skull rocked on the ropes, and it can be maintained with man-lands, Crucible, and 2x Nether Spirits only.

Right now I don't have my tournament play notes on hand as I'm not currently at home, but though my experience was depressing, it was through no fault of the deck, but my own insecurities and nervousness in a LOOONG high pressure environment (8 rounds of swiss is mentally taxing and I noticed it on everyone I faced after the 5th round. My foes and I all complained at the same time.). The minor rundown, I faced OmniShow, Burn, MUD Metalworker, Exploration + Thespian + DD combo (FARKING HELL that matchup), a no show (woot free win), BUG control, homebrew Stoneforge, and High Tide (fought to time, his combo kill was amazing game two).

My short explanation: the meta had far less black decks and this was a good thing for my Contamination Sideboard. My worst and deadliest play error (which would have been a sound decision for any other deck) was letting my Contamination sacrifice itself instead of sacrificing my Mishra's factories to it. I top decked my single Crucible THE SAME TURN it died due to my Nether Spirit getting Surgically extracted. It was in the burn match up WHICH I COULD HAVE WON!! [facepalm, cries bloody tears]

record: 2 wins, 5 losses, 1 draw to time.

The good: the deck didn't mana screw me or flood me, and I got to play magic, not twiddle my thumbs with bad draws as an excuse.

The bad: 8 rounds of swiss vs many unfair decks using a deck that was designed to murder fair decks, I however do not regret this as Pox is my pet deck and after experiencing an exhilarating Burn match, I have more confidence in it than ever before. My first combo loss [after 20 tests vs. many different non-dredge combo] was this tournament which made me quite sad. :frown:

The ugly: the look on my enemies' faces when they have to sideboard game two. :laugh:

I'll have the long details in a post later in the week, probably tommorow or Wednesday at the latest

[Hardcore]

We look forward to that report!

Contamination is a cool card, and, many have tried to make it work.
Crucible + man-lands may be the required mechanic.

[Countertoplol]

Latest draft is this one. Braids for fun!

3 tombstalker
3 geralf's messenger
3 bloodsoaked champion
4 bloodghast
3 the rack
4 dark ritual
3 chalice of the void
4 Pox
4 hymn to tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 braids, cabal minion
3 gitaxian probe
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
11 Swamp


I can't imagine that you don't want to run wasteland in a deck like this... Do you own them and actually opt to not play them or is this a budget list?

[OmniStrata]

I can't imagine that you don't want to run wasteland in a deck like this... Do you own them and actually opt to not play them or is this a budget list?

He's not running smallpox or sinkhole and his creature base has a very high cmc. Wastelands in a build like this I'm guessing would string up his hand with dead cards. The build appears like it will attempt to kill you before you get the chance to do anything worth while. With such a thick threat count, even bombs like Jace won't be able to cope with 3-4 high power threats punching him in the jaw. In which case, let them have the land. The only sweeper I'd be afraid of with a deck like this is Terminus.

[Countertoplol]

He's not running smallpox or sinkhole and his creature base has a very high cmc. Wastelands in a build like this I'm guessing would string up his hand with dead cards. The build appears like it will attempt to kill you before you get the chance to do anything worth while. With such a thick threat count, even bombs like Jace won't be able to cope with 3-4 high power threats punching him in the jaw. In which case, let them have the land. The only sweeper I'd be afraid of with a deck like this is Terminus.

Makes sense, thanks for clarifying.

[Hardcore]

Yeah, that is correct. The only thing black is good at is disruption, but that doesn't win games. Our creatures that are powerful enough to compete cost more than those of of other colors. Annoying.

[OmniStrata]

Starcity Games Chicago: OmniStrata deck - Traditional Pox.

Creatures (2)
2 Nether Spirit

Spells (34)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
1 Pox
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Engineered Plague
1 Crucible of Worlds

Land (24)
12 Snow Covered Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Contamination (da little secret!)
3 Engineered Plague
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Extirpate
3 Relic of Progenitus

The report next Post...

[OmniStrata]

Round 1 Game 1: I thought it was BUG at first, but turned out to be Omni-tell. I never lost that match up before.
Turn 1 - I'm on the play and start with a Dark Ritual, Crucible of worlds. He's Island, Ponder.
2 - I attempt a Sinkhole that eats Force of Will. He Thoughtseizes my Smallpox
3 - I wasteland his next Underground Sea. He Brainstorms in response, but passes his turn.
4 - Mishra's Factory. He plays another Underground Sea.
5 - I Wasteland his Underground Sea. He casts Lim Dul's Vault, checks 10 cards, loses 2 life.
6 - I punch with Mishra's. He's on Island pass the turn
7 - Swamp into Inquisition of Kozilek. He Brainstorms in response and I see Emrakul, Omniscience, Boseiju who Shelter's All. I need to kill him 2 turns ago!
8 and 9 - I punch with my lone Mishra as often as I could but he drops a Misty Rainforest, fetches an island, Show and Tells. I fail to get my Innocent Blood, and get my sideboard ready.

Round 1 Game 2: I'm somewhat angry in that my disruption didn't show up, but I'm still confident. He Leyline of Sanctity's me before we start.
1 - We both play basic swamp and island
2 - I Sinkhole. He Brainstorms in response. After his land sinks he Gitaxian Probes me.
3 - Smallpox, discarding Nether Spirit. He sacs his Island and fetches another with Misty Rainforest
4 - I play Mishra's. He plays a Polluted delta and Brainstorms after it.
5 - I punch him. He fetches end of turn an Island and passes.
6 - Nether Spirit's been out now so I rock his head with Mishra and Nether. He Ponders and plays an Underground Sea.
7 - THE KILLING BLOW! I wasteland his Underground Sea and punch him again for 4 damage. He Digs Through Time in response, but scoops. I'm deadpan, but celebrating on the inside.

Round 1 Game 3: He's on the play, double Leyline, I laugh inside :laugh:.
1 - He drops an Underground Sea. I Swamp and Relic of Progenitus, the intention to eat as much of his GY as possible for the damn Dig Through Time.
2 - He's on an Island. I Wasteland his Underground Sea.
3 - He Ponders and I Relic him after playing my 2nd land.
4 - CoF (Shit I forgot what this stood for *facepalm*). I hard cast Lilliana of the Veil
5 - Show & Tell :frown: I Swamp and he plays Omniscience. He casts Dig Through Time for Free for Cunning Wish, Eldamri's Call, Emrakul, I die.

The Good: I learned something. Instant Speed removal like Diabolic Edict could have helped me here, but other than that nothing else.
The Bad: I've tested against all form of Combo decks. The only one that consistently killed me was Dredge and I've never lost... until now! :frown:
The Ugly: My Disruption didn't come up as often as I'd hoped, but I chalk that up to bad luck.

Round 2 Game 1: BURN! I SHOULD HAVE WON!!! GAH!
Turn 1 - I'm on the play. I open with Dark Ritual, Lilliana and he says "Whoa, haven't seen that play in a while". He suspends a Rift Bolt from a Mountain. I quiver with fear.
2 - I activate Liliana discarding Pox and then Sinkhole him. He Rift Bolts my skull and plays Wooded Foothills.
3 - Liliana discards my Nether Spirit which I top decked. He fetches a mountain and plays Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 - I activate Liliana. He punches me with Goblin guide and Eidolon of the Great Revel.
5 - I Liliana -2 him while Nether Spirit stands as her invincible Bodyguard. He plays a mountain.
6 - I Lili -2 his other threat and let Nether Spirit have his way with him. He's now in Draw - Go state. YAY
7 - I Inquisition something out of his hand and my Mishra's played prior attacks with NS. He Searing Blood's Nether Spirit. He's Draw - Go
8 - I attack with Mishra's and he Lava Spike's Lilliana.
9 - Cursed Scroll is played. He fetches a Mountain
10 - Cursed Scroll and Nether Spirit cut him down. I'VE WON AGAINST BURN?! :really:

Game 2: Here comes CONTAMINATION! He's of course, on the play.
1 - He's Wooded Foothills, fetch mountain, Suspend Rift Bolt. I play a swamp.
2 - He plays Eidolon of the Great Revel. I play my 2nd swamp, Dark Ritual DOUBLE Hymn to Tourach!
3 - His Eidolon punches me. I hard cast Nether Spirit as a guard.
4 - I play Mishra's Factory and cast Contamination. He facebutts Nether Spirit and passes turns until turn 8. I've been Mishra punching him this whole time.
8 - Nether Spirit gets Surgically Extraction. I had a 2nd Mishra's on the field. On my turn, I sac the Contamination and draw... (drumroll) CRUCIBLE OF WORLDS! *facepalm* :really:
9 - He plays 2 Goblin Guides, attacks, and Fireblasts me to death.

Game 3: My thought processes are in a state of chaos
1 - I'm swamp. He's mountain, Goblin Guide punch, I find nothing.
2 - Dark Ritual, Innocent Blood, Sinkhole. Feeling great! He plays another GG and punches me, I see no land.
3 - Engineered Plague on Goblins. He Lava Spikes me.
4 - I Smallpox and punch him with a prior Mishra's factory. he plays Mountain, Eidolon of the Great Revel.
5 - Crucible of Worlds, Swamp. Eidolon bleeds me. He plays mountain, Grim Lavamancer
6 - I punch him with Mishra's. He Grim Lava's me, Fireblast, and Lava Spikes me into the dirt. I couldn't recover. :frown:

Round 3, Game 1 - MUD Metalworker. A ramping deck. Pox doesn't like mana cheaters... :mad: He's on the play. Oh yeah, he mulligans twice!
1 - He's Cavern of Souls, naming Construct. I Urborg, Dark Ritual, Cursed Scroll, Sinkhole. *feeling saucy*
2 - Another Cavern of Souls. I Sinkhole AGAIN!
3 - He plays an Ancient Tomb. I cast Liliana and we both discard.
4 - He plays City of Traitors. I activate Liliana.
5 - I activate Lili, discarding Dark Ritual and he discards Staff of Domination. Top deck mode!
6 - He plays Kuldotha Forgemaster and Grim Monolith. I make him sac the Forgemaster and Cursed Scroll his dome.
7 - Lodestone Golem. I cast Smallpox and then Lili +1
8 - He plays Coercive Portal. I activate Lili.
On turn 10 with nothing eventful happening, he scoops due to missing multiple Portal triggers. I shrug and say better luck game 2.

Game 2 - He's playing first
1 - He's glimmer post. I swamp.
2 - Ancient Tomb, Crucible of Worlds. I seek raging doom! I smallpox him.
3 - He plays another Glimmerpost and I play Mishra's and let my Nether Spirit hit the field (previously smallpoxed)
4 - He crucibles a Gpost and I punch him with Nether Mishra tag team.
5 - He casts Witchbane Orb. I activate Liliana after casting and he dumps a Wasteland, myself a Swamp.
6 - Ancient Tomb, Wurmcoil Engine. I use Liliana to make him sacrifice and Cursed Scroll his skull.
7 - He plays a Cloudpost and attacks with Wurm Tokens, one of which is equipped with a Batterskull he casted.
8 - He casts Karn Liberated. My NS gets exiled. Wurm and Batterskull defeat me.

Game 3 - Contamination of course, I REALLY thought I had this one... We both mulligan to 6
1 - Swamp, Dark Ritual, Crucible (I autowin inside my head). He plays Wasteland.
2 - I Wasteland his Wasteland. He plays a Glimmerpost
3 - I Wasteland his Glimmerpost. He plays Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith, Metalworker. I realize this deck is truly Godlike.
4 - Without removal or my Pithing Needle, I play a Mishra's. He activates the metalworker and reveals 5 artifacts for 10 mana. He drops Trinisphere and Wurmcoil engine.
5-6-7-8 For the next turns, he drops Chalice of the Void on 2, Lodestone Golem, and murders me with Wurmcoil. If I had pithing turn 1, I realize now my error...

The Good: Some decks function on 1 colorless mana. Learned something. Pithing the damn Metalworker next time.
The Bad: How to sideboard against this aside from Pithing and Contamination is beyond me. Stalling it is very difficult since most of its abilites are mana abilities and land that makes 2 mana.
The Ugly: My Record...

Round 4 Game 1 - AUTOWIN NO SHOW!

Round 5 Game 1 - I'm on the play, he's too fast for me.
1 - I play swamp. He plays Wooded Foothills, fetching Taiga, Exploration, Grove of the Burnwillows.
2 - I Wasteland his Grove and he responds with a Crop Rotation into Forest. He casts Life from the Loam. I scoop knowing full well what I'm up against, almost.

Game 2 - I forget about Dark Depths, this hindsight shall haunt me.
1 - Swamp into Relic of Progenitus. Forest, Exploration, wooded Foothills. I HATE THAT CARD.
2 - Smallpox, relic activation. He draws, and plays a Wasteland and Thespian Stage. I facepalm inside.
3 - I drop Mishra's and he drops a Dark Depths. I'm dead at the end of my turn 4.

The Good: Nothing. Wasteland did nothing this fight and I have to say it was probably a 'worst case' matchup.
The Bad: I wish I had diabolic edict, again.
The Ugly: My record... more disfigurements! :frown:

Round 6 Game 1 - I think BUG and I'm correct. On the play.
1 - Swamp, Dark Ritual, Crucible. He plays a Polluted Delta.
2 - Swamp. He's Bayou, fetch Underground Sea, Hymn to Tourach
3 - Swamp, Sinkhole his Underground Sea. He fetches another Underground Sea and Abrupt Decays my Crucible.
4 - Cursed Scroll. He Wastelands Urborg and Hymns me again.
5 - Swamp. He casts Tarmogoyf.
6 - I Wasteland his other Underground Sea. He Goyfs my head and casts Deathrite Shaman.
7 - I cursed Scroll his Deathrite Shaman and Goyf punches me.
8 - Here's the nasty luck. I cast 2 Lilianas I top decked for two turns in a row and he Force of Wills both of her using Daze twice! Goyf murders me. :eek:

Game 2 - hindsight lesson, a Needle on Deathrite Shaman and Contamination WOULD HAVE DESTROYED HIM... Of course, I side in neither cause my mind is hurting.
1 - I Inquisition his DRS. He plays a Misty Rainforest.
2 - Mishra's Factory, Relic of Progenitus. He fetches an Underground Sea and Ponders
3 - I Wasteland his U. Sea and Mishra his knees. He fetches a Tropical Island, Brainstorms, Wastelands my Mishra, and plays Goyf
4 - I cast Inquisition, which he Force of Wills, exiling Brainstorm, and he punches with Goyf and casts Life from the Loam.
5 - I blast relic, draw my card. I'm glad I waited that turn to hit that Loam. Innocent Blood, goyf is bye bye. He casts Baleful Strix and fetchlands
6 - I cast Liliana and make him Discard a dead FoW. He Wastelands my Mishra's and Strix punches Liliana. Drops a Fetchland, fetches and casts Deathrite Shaman
7 - Cursed Scroll. He draw go's
8 - I attack with Nether Spirit I discarded to Liliana turns ago and he blocks with Strix. DRS hits me for 2 life loss and he casts another strix
9 - Smallpox. He Brainstorms in Response. Draw go
10 - Cursed Scroll kills his DRS (woohah!). He uses DRS in response before it dies and passes.
11 - I cast Liliana. He Digs Through Time for a Force of Will and a Daze to exile with it. He Brainstorms on his turn.
12 - I cast a 2nd Cursed Scroll and play my 2nd Urborg, killing my previous one leaving me with all untapped land. He casts Null Rod. I realize Mishra can still do it's pump thing as a land.
13 - I punch with Mishra's. He cracks a Fetch end of turn. He gets Underground Sea, plays Wasteland and summons a Tarmogoyf.
14 - Liliana appears and sacs his goyf. He casts Jace and Jacestorms. At this point, I realize he has to die at any and all costs.
15 - I punch Jace with Mishra's. He Brainstorms with Jace.
16 - Liliana + 1. Jacestorm
17 - I liliana +1 again. He top decks Dig Through Time and Brainstorms with Jace. He abrupt decays my Mishra as I tried to attack him.
18 - I liliana +1 as Mishra dies. Jacestorms, Abrupt Decay on Liliana
19 - Pithing Jace YAH!. He cast Tarmogoyf.
20, 21 - I sinkhole him and I top deck Hymn to Tourach as Goyf kills me. Jace gave him too much and Liliana wasn't enough.

The Good: The game as a whole was fine. Jace is as strong and OP as everyone makes him out to be and I dealt with him as best I could.
The Bad: I know I could have won had a Nether Spirit appeared to stop that ending Goyf game 2.
The Ugly: Me realizing I let Jace do too much work.

Round 7 - There was a lot of blah blah to this game cause it was a Stoneforge Homebrew that had too many elements and no removal at all to speak of. I'm on the play
1 - Dark Ritual, Liliana, discarding Smallpox. He discards Jace (I :eek: inside). He fetches an Underground Sea, and Thoughtseizes away my other Smallpox.
2 - I top deck and Wasteland his Underground Sea. I activate Liliana +1. He plays an Island.
3 - Things get very nasty here. I Hymn his hand and activate Liliana +1. He Brainstorms in response. After my turn, he plays an Island.
From turn 4 - 18, Liliana counts up something FIERCE and the gamer next to me says, "That's a lot of Loyalty on Liliana." I reply with, "Yeah, it's like I married her in 3 religions..." I ultimate with her 3 times [that's right, 22 loyalty!] and Mishra's kills the hapless victim by turn 19.

Game 2 - more of the same. It plays out much like game 1, but the short list, 21 turns of mediocrity.
1 - He fetches a Tundra and Brainstorms. I wasteland it.
2 - He thoughtseizes my Smallpox after playing an Underground Sea. I Inquisition his Stoneforge.
3 - Mishra's factory. Hymn to Tourach. He plays a Fetchland.
4 - My Mishra punches, I cast Cursed and he reads the card, and Force of Will's it. He fetches an Island and casts a Stoneforge getting a sword of Feast and Famine.
5 - Innocent Blood. Mishra Punches. He's Draw-Go mode.
6 - Punch. He casts a Plains and hard casts Sword of Feast and Famine.
7 - I Mishra punch him again. He casts Lingering Souls from his yard. (remember the Hymn?)
8 - I Smallpox him before Mishra Punches him. He swings with his single Token.
9 - I punch him with Mishra's. He plays and equips Jitte, and swings with the token.
10 - I cast Ensnaring Bridge (oh yeah!) and he casts Meddling Mage, naming Smallpox. The Mage is equipped now, but for no good reason really.
11 - I cast Engineered Plague on Humans. He casts another Lingering Souls
12 - I top deck a Plague on Spirits, they wipe out the Spirits forever. Draw go is his game plan.
13 - I play swamp. He's draw go agian.
14 - Crucible hits the field from a top deck. I Wasteland loop him from my Fortress of Solitude that is my Ensnaring Bridge.
15 - 21, from that point onward, I drop a Night of Souls' Betrayal, a Cursed Scroll, and then Scroll his skull to victory. I felt really sorry for the guy...

The Good: Too much disruption? NAH, I love it! It's better to just disrupt them to nothing and lock them down, then to play threats first and let them play their game.
The Bad: His spirit must be in pieces after that fight. We had the same points score when I looked at the pairings.
The Ugly: LONG LONG ass game.

Round 8 - HIGH TIDE! This post is getting stupid long so I'll make this quick. This match ended in a draw but I know I would have won. I'm on the play.
1 - I inquisition and hit Meditate?! He drops an Island. I realize it's High Tide.
2 - I swamp, Inquisition, discard his only counter, I think it was Daze, I'm not sure, and my 2nd swamp is Dark Ritual Liliana.
3 - I inquisition him a 3rd time with Liliana's ability afterward. He plays a Candelabra of Tawnos. I have this game in the bag.
4 - 16 I cursed scroll him to death while Lilliana keeps his hand totally empty.

Round 8 Game 2
A game that went much longer than was needed. i realize he may have done it on purpose to force a Draw and if I were in his shoes, I'd do the same.
1 - He's on the play with an Island after a fetchland. I Needle his Candelabra.
2 - I drop a Mishra's. He draws and drops Island.
3 - I hard cast Nether Spirit [fark]. He drops an Island and Passes.
4 - CONTAMINATION! gets force of willed after he Meditates in response. He skips turn 5
5 - Mishra punches with Spirit.
6 - I die to a fantastic combo loop involving time spiral and 6 High Tides and 2 Meditates in 1 turn and he makes me draw 67 cards with Blue Sun Zenith.

Game 3
I disrupt him to the point of nothing after Pithing his Candelabra and Liliana hits the field turn 3 after a Hymn to Tourach on Turn 2. He tried to bluff me by Merchant Scrolling a Force of Will 'in my face' but with two Liliana's in my hand, I called his Bluff. DRAW GAME!!

On the whole, despite 2 wins, 5 losses, and 1 Draw, I had a better time at the end of the day. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts as it were. I'm DEFINITELY keeping Contamination as the meta is very low on Black decks and even if splashed, I understand that it becomes VERY difficult to function if you cut off that other color. Relic was too weak and so I'm replacing it with the BOMB of Leyline of the Void. Wastelands feed Dig Through Time!

I hope you enjoyed this report more than I did typing it. It's been almost an hour! :cry: 11 smilies only?! darn.

[PirateKing]

OmniStrata we were there at the event looking for you, only found you at the end where is was clear the day had taken its toll. After reading the bad beats,, I can empathize. I have a few notes after reading your report:

Round 3 Game 2 - You say he cast Witchbane Orb, which should shut off Liliana of the Veil's -2 & -6 ability, but you say you used this the turn after the Orb was played.

Metalworker is a mana ability, it can't be turned off with Pithing Needle. You'd need Phyrexian Revoker to do that.

Round 6 Game 2 - You say your opponent cast Abrupt Decay targeting your Mishra's Factory. That isn't a legal target, you should have been able to continue the beats into Jace's dumb face.

Beyond that a good read and some tough breaks for you. My wife was there running Pox and did even worse, facing two OmniShow decks as well as the mirror. We used to have 4x Leyline of the Void in the side, but recently swapped them for 2x Relic of Progenitus and Extirpate. It offers us a better range of hate and the flexibility of not always needing to bring in 4 copies to maximize the opening hand. We're playing without library manipulation, so our deck is our deck, and putting in cards that do nothing when drawn is a really dangerous prospect. Yes our set up is weaker against DTT, sometimes Relic just isn't enough to keep them off Delve, and since you can't respond to paying a cost, it's too late once they can. But I think it makes the deck stronger as a whole, as well as giving us better game against RG Lands and OmniTell. (My wife hit Show and Tell with an Extirpate, though the opponent had anticipated this and had brought in Young Pyromancer, her Engineered Plagues were still in the side, and couldn't kill them faster than he was making them and died, but still, good play that was potentially game over against that deck) If DTT continues its rise and becomes a serious issue, then maybe we will reconsider, but for us locally, casting a wider net has more benefit than crushing just one card.

[OmniStrata]

OmniStrata we were there at the event looking for you, only found you at the end where is was clear the day had taken its toll. After reading the bad beats,, I can empathize. I have a few notes after reading your report:

Round 3 Game 2 - You say he cast Witchbane Orb, which should shut off Liliana of the Veil's -2 & -6 ability, but you say you used this the turn after the Orb was played.

Metalworker is a mana ability, it can't be turned off with Pithing Needle. You'd need Phyrexian Revoker to do that.

Round 6 Game 2 - You say your opponent cast Abrupt Decay targeting your Mishra's Factory. That isn't a legal target, you should have been able to continue the beats into Jace's dumb face.

Beyond that a good read and some tough breaks for you. My wife was there running Pox and did even worse, facing two OmniShow decks as well as the mirror. We used to have 4x Leyline of the Void in the side, but recently swapped them for 2x Relic of Progenitus and Extirpate. It offers us a better range of hate and the flexibility of not always needing to bring in 4 copies to maximize the opening hand. We're playing without library manipulation, so our deck is our deck, and putting in cards that do nothing when drawn is a really dangerous prospect. Yes our set up is weaker against DTT, sometimes Relic just isn't enough to keep them off Delve, and since you can't respond to paying a cost, it's too late once they can. But I think it makes the deck stronger as a whole, as well as giving us better game against RG Lands and OmniTell. (My wife hit Show and Tell with an Extirpate, though the opponent had anticipated this and had brought in Young Pyromancer, her Engineered Plagues were still in the side, and couldn't kill them faster than he was making them and died, but still, good play that was potentially game over against that deck) If DTT continues its rise and becomes a serious issue, then maybe we will reconsider, but for us locally, casting a wider net has more benefit than crushing just one card.

My notes were in shorthand as taking my time wasn't an option. I may have transposed some of the 'turn numbers'. Ah, I remember now, that was an illegal move and the -2 had to be taken back (of course, I didn't write that down). The BUG player actually Abrupted Decayed Mishra before damage, I most likely miswrote that note. Right on about that Pithing Needle, I forgot that mana abilities don't need targets. Cursed Totem comes to mind, but ultimately, killing the Metalworker outright would have given me the time I needed.

[Hardcore]

I note you had little use of sinkholes, and could have use for a couple of the Rack.

[PirateKing]

My notes were in shorthand as taking my time wasn't an option. I may have transposed some of the 'turn numbers'. Ah, I remember now, that was an illegal move and the -2 had to be taken back (of course, I didn't write that down). The BUG player actually Abrupted Decayed Mishra before damage, I most likely miswrote that note. Right on about that Pithing Needle, I forgot that mana abilities don't need targets. Cursed Totem comes to mind, but ultimately, killing the Metalworker outright would have given me the time I needed.

Mishra's Factory is never not a land, it should never be a valid target for Abrupt Decay.

[OmniStrata]

Mishra's Factory is never not a land, it should never be a valid target for Abrupt Decay.

Good point. I remembered Liliana gets Abrupt Decayed a lot in that match, AH, I must have gotten the Wasteland swapped up in there and misread my scribbles. I distinctly remember him Wastelanding the Factories as the BUG player's way of stopping the man-land damage and Abrupt Decay is for Liliana. Grr, notes mix-ups! [facepalm :tongue:]

As far as Sinkhole is concerned, it does heavy work vs. non combo and with Smallpox, Pox, and Wasteland backup, I'm very grateful for it when my Wastelands are dead in my hand to a mono color.

[Hardcore]

As far as Sinkhole is concerned, it does heavy work vs. non combo and with Smallpox, Pox, and Wasteland backup, I'm very grateful for it when my Wastelands are dead in my hand to a mono color.

If you are on the play, perhaps. Otherwise it does not much when opponent goes: turn one land, Delver, go!

Also, seems contamination didn't win any game for you. Misplays may be cause for that, but i wonder...

[Hardcore]

Thanks for the report! I am sorry that i sounded like a jerk, but it was fatigue. (i have not slept well the past months, which is also a reason i haven't played in a local tourney. )

Ps. since you are so geared toward land destruction i wonder have you tested Psychogenic Probe and Ankh of Mishra?

[OmniStrata]

Thanks for the report! I am sorry that i sounded like a jerk, but it was fatigue. (i have not slept well the past months, which is also a reason i haven't played in a local tourney. )

Ps. since you are so geared toward land destruction i wonder have you tested Psychogenic Probe and Ankh of Mishra?

Conditional damage is bad. When the conditions are not met, you can't get your damage in. Cursed Scroll is my borderline for conditional damage threat. I did test Ankh before and Psychogenic sounds like a great idea for tutors as well as fetch lands.

If I'm on the draw, I simply Innocent Blood the Delver. Discard has the same application as Land Destruction, early game only. However, late game, I find my Sinkholes more useful in that I can get the full effect. Hymn is only half as good if your enemy decided to keep 1 card in the face of Lilianas. Sinkhole, will always have a manland or even a basic land target later on.

You shouldn't play using Contamination as a win con, though as I said, play error was what screwed me up. How many blue decks will have to spend counter spells on your hymns and Smallpoxes? You think they'll hold on to those 'just in case' I play Contamination? It's truly the ultimate in mana denial, especially now that I know Black is relgated to a minor color in the meta. I'm somewhat surprised since BUG is contending as Deck to Beat but I only ran into 1 deck with Deathrite Shaman.

I'm actually not geared toward LD in the sense that I've got more Discard cards than LD cards. If we don't count Smallpox and Pox since they do both, I only have 8 LD in Wasteland and Sinkhole, but 12 Discard in Inquisition, Hymn, and Liliana.

As far as Delvers are concerned, Engineered Plague preflip is Extirpate and with Night of Souls' Betrayal, only biggies like Tarmogoyf can stick to the field. I didn't get a chance to fight tribal at the IQ but I'm certain if I did, my record would have been stronger.

[Hardcore]

Probe and Ankh are more lock pieces in my thinking. There comes a point where the opponents can't play anymore lands because it kills them.
Still, there is a reason i don't play these cards myself. You need to have them i hand at the right moment. That is not exactly what pox is good at.
I did have a proxy list, three years ago, that upset a local Zoo player. Regrettably it is lost in time and space now :'( It was controlish and included Ankh, but not the probe.

[OmniStrata]

Probe and Ankh are more lock pieces in my thinking. There comes a point where the opponents can't play anymore lands because it kills them.
Still, there is a reason i don't play these cards myself. You need to have them i hand at the right moment. That is not exactly what pox is good at.
I did have a proxy list, three years ago, that upset a local Zoo player. Regrettably it is lost in time and space now :'( It was controlish and included Ankh, but not the probe.

The problem is black doesn't really have any direct damage and there's no point in 'locking' your enemy at 2 hp when you can just kill them. Now in my Burn fight, I was down to around 5-6 hp when Contamination showed up and my enemy got 'stuck' with those Goblin Guides in his hand. I had Mishra's on the field and should have just kept drawing cards and feeding them to Contamination. Sometimes I feel I need to lessen my threat count as an opening with many threats and no disruption is bad for my flavor of Pox.

I should just Mulligan too. Derp.

[Hardcore]

On the subject of mulligan...
Warm-up games before the tourney is a good thing. People tend to say no when i ask though: p
Getting enough quality sleep is vital too.

[BigPhil86]

Hi guys, I' ve been playing the follwing build based on my local meta, full of omni tell, storm, and miracles. I would like to take it to the nationals down here in Brazil, and would like some input.
The deck has been running well although I do have some trouble with shardless.

LANDS: 25

11 Swamp
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Misrha's Factory

CREATURES: 1

1 Nether Spirit

ARTIFACTS: 4

2 Cursed Scroll
2 Crucible of Worlds

ENCHANTMENTS: 4

2 Nether Void
2 Chains of Mephistopheles

PLANESWALKERS: 4

4 @Lillana of the Veil

INSTANS AND SORCCERIES: 22

4 Dark Ritual
4 Smallpox
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Pox
3 Sinkhole
3 Innocent Blood
1 Extirpate

SIDEBOARD:

3 Pithing Needle
1 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Night of Soul's Betrayal
2 The Abyss
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Hymn to Tourach

[zebhillard]

LANDS: 25

11 @Swamp
1 @Maze of Ith
1 @The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 @Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 @ Wasteland


You seem to be missing a few lands.

[OmniStrata]

I'm guessing he's running 4 Mishra's Factories otherwise he has too few win conditions.

No Hymn to Tourach? In a combo meta, I'd say that's a mistake. I'd recommend going 4 Sinkhole, 2 Pox just so your disruption can happen faster. With miracles, your land destruction will suffice. Love the 4 enchantments. :wink:

[Hardcore]

He runs three Hymn in sideboard.
Should they be in main deck? Hard to say. Suppose they could replace pox.

[BigPhil86]

You seem to be missing a few lands.

Hi, i forgot to type 4 Misrha = )

[BigPhil86]

I'm guessing he's running 4 Mishra's Factories otherwise he has too few win conditions.

No Hymn to Tourach? In a combo meta, I'd say that's a mistake. I'd recommend going 4 Sinkhole, 2 Pox just so your disruption can happen faster. With miracles, your land destruction will suffice. Love the 4 enchantments. :wink:

Hi Omni, thanks for the input.

I agree with the fact that Hymn is overall a better card than pox.
The thing is, I was so frustrated with having to deal with counterbalance, less three mana options in miracles for it to get countered, and Omni Tell with White Leyline coming up in all games, that hymn became a dead card in those matches.

Thanks for the enchants hehe!

[BigPhil86]

He runs three Hymn in sideboard.
Should they be in main deck? Hard to say. Suppose they could replace pox.

Hi Hardcore,
btw, i dig ur aggro builds!

I do get in doubt about that, always going back and forth.
In my testing, Pox did better against combos and miracles. Hymn against burn, aggros.

Trying to figure out what's best.

[Hardcore]

I can relate to that "Back and forth" thing. Pox is the best card in the deck, but not against everyone.

I tried last times having Wrench Minds in the sideboard, in addition to hymn in main, for match-ups that doesn't have blue cantrips.
To few games played to say if that works:/

[hpl324]

hello everyone I am an old fan pox and I would reconstruct the first version which was built using I ask the players if you would know what was the deck list i know is Mr martin huemmerich

[Hardcore]

hard to find.
Here is an article on early pox
http://www.casualplayers.org/article/get.php?action=getarticle&articleid=351

[Chatto]

hard to find.
Here is an article on early pox
http://www.casualplayers.org/article/get.php?action=getarticle&articleid=351

Nice find! I like how elegant and to-the-point those early builds were.

[Hardcore]

An interesting creature for my more aggro pox is Dusk Urchins.
Nice card advantage. Blocking or attacking turn him into a cantrip, and an Ancestral if he lives un-interrupted. Cost three which is a bit much, so i must cut small pox i think.

[hpl324]

I found a version of pox type 2 1997 😀
Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Quicksand
12 Swamp
2 Volrath’s Stronghold
Creatures (7)
4 Abyssal Gatekeeper
3 Bottle Gnomes
Spells (32)
4 Funeral Charm
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Bottomless Pit
4 Pox
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Paupers’ Cage
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Phyrexian Furnace
3 Charcoal Diamond

http://www.spekkionu.com/2005/06/history-of-mono-black-control/

[Hardcore]

I saw that one too. wonder if it is playable today.

[OmniStrata]

I saw that one too. wonder if it is playable today.

I think it definitely stands a chance with a few "this card is better" upgrades. Liliana instead of Bottomless Pit, the Rack instead of Pauper's Cage. Looks like it'd be worth it in an aggro meta. No Inquisition or Hymns mean auto-lose in combo matches. Phyrexian Furnace?! :eek:

[Nik842]

Question for OmniStrata, but anyone is more than welcomed to answer it.
I've been playing Pox for a few months now, and currently I'm using Duress. I'm looking to upgrade it to a better card and saw that you're using Inquisition of Kozilek. Is there a reason you're using that instead of Thoughtseize, or maybe a 2/2 split between the two?

My reasons for not starting out with Thoughtseize is the price, but I'm looking to get one at a time till I have the set.


Here's my deck list, if that makes any difference:

My current list, if it makes a difference:

// Lands - 25
1 Cabal Pit (looking on possibly cutting this)
4 Mishra's Factory
12 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

// Creatures - 1
1 Nether Spirit

// Instants - 4
4 Dark Ritual (looking to cut to 3)


// Sorceries - 21
4 Duress (I'd either like 4 Thoughtseizes or a 2/2 split with IoK)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
1 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox

// Artifacts - 9
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 The Rack (I keep wanting to cut this, but it has helped wittle down a lot of my opponents life)

// Planeswalkers - 2
2 Liliana of the Veil (I would like to run 1 more)

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Helm of Obedience
SB: 2 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Raven's Crime
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Vengeful Pharaoh
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin

***I can't decide on a solid 15***

What is everyone's thoughts on Diabolic Edict in either the MB or SB?



Edit: Added my deck list

[jredelstein]

Question for OmniStrata, but anyone is more than welcomed to answer it.
I've been playing Pox for a few months now, and currently I'm using Duress. I'm looking to upgrade it to a better card and saw that you're using Inquisition of Kozilek. Is there a reason you're using that instead of Thoughtseize, or maybe a 2/2 split between the two?

My reasons for not starting out with Thoughtseize is the price, but I'm looking to get one at a time till I have the set.

Inquisition of Kozilek over Thoughtseize is usually because the life loss is very critical. I have won a lot of games at 3 or less life that I would have lost if IoK was Thoughtseize. IoK is also great for Pox because we are attacking their mana base so if you are smallpoxing, sinkholeing, and wastelanding them they will probably never get to play a 4 mana spell. Especially with Liliana and Hymn to clean up the rest of their hand. If you are looking for an additional 1 mana spell may I suggest Cabal Therapy. It interacts favorably with Bloodghasts or Nether Spirits and even Mishra's Factory. I play G/B Pox and have even more awesome interactions because of Entomb.

[kombatkiwi]

Inquisition of Kozilek over Thoughtseize is usually because the life loss is very critical. I have won a lot of games at 3 or less life that I would have lost if IoK was Thoughtseize. IoK is also great for Pox because we are attacking their mana base so if you are smallpoxing, sinkholeing, and wastelanding them they will probably never get to play a 4 mana spell. Especially with Liliana and Hymn to clean up the rest of their hand. If you are looking for an additional 1 mana spell may I suggest Cabal Therapy. It interacts favorably with Bloodghasts or Nether Spirits and even Mishra's Factory. I play G/B Pox and have even more awesome interactions because of Entomb.

This is an excellent explanation.
In the past I have also used Mire's Toll due to card availability issues but Inquisition is definitely the best 1-mana discard for this deck.

[OmniStrata]

Question for OmniStrata, but anyone is more than welcomed to answer it.
I've been playing Pox for a few months now, and currently I'm using Duress. I'm looking to upgrade it to a better card and saw that you're using Inquisition of Kozilek. Is there a reason you're using that instead of Thoughtseize, or maybe a 2/2 split between the two?

My reasons for not starting out with Thoughtseize is the price, but I'm looking to get one at a time till I have the set.


Here's my deck list, if that makes any difference:

My current list, if it makes a difference:

// Lands - 25
1 Cabal Pit (looking on possibly cutting this)
4 Mishra's Factory
12 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

// Creatures - 1
1 Nether Spirit

// Instants - 4
4 Dark Ritual (looking to cut to 3)


// Sorceries - 21
4 Duress (I'd either like 4 Thoughtseizes or a 2/2 split with IoK)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
1 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox

// Artifacts - 9
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 The Rack (I keep wanting to cut this, but it has helped wittle down a lot of my opponents life)

// Planeswalkers - 2
2 Liliana of the Veil (I would like to run 1 more)

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Helm of Obedience
SB: 2 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Raven's Crime
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Vengeful Pharaoh
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin

***I can't decide on a solid 15***

What is everyone's thoughts on Diabolic Edict in either the MB or SB?



Edit: Added my deck list

Thoughtseize isn't worth it for a deck that hacks its own life totals down. Not even a 2/2 split. In fact, I rather you 2/2 Inquisition with Duress. Duress is still good in that it hits counterspells, combo win conditions, and exiling removal, but it won't hit crucial cards like mana dorks. God I hate mana dorks. After my prior tourney, I'm thinking of squeezing in Duress since a combo/control meta has a lot of 4+ cmc spells that are cheated in. Only time will tell...

Ditch the Pithing Needles for 4 Liliana of the Veil. You won't regret it. Ensnaring Rack combos too well if your Liliana is left alone. In which case, I'd consider a Bottomless Pit or 2 when they stick a Pithing Needle up her !@#$. Cabal Pit could be kept with Crucible. Having Cabal, Mishra's, Wasteland and Tabernacle come back each time they are sacced/destroyed is awesome. If you're cutting Cabal, I'd suggest cutting Crucible too.

For your sideboard, Pox's greatest weapon (lol), I'd recommend 4-6 swarm stoppers, 4-5 GY hate, and the rest would be a mix of Pithing Needle and your meta guess. Diabolic Edict could save your ass when an Emrakul gets hardcast with Omniscience. Happened to me enough times to make me mad. :mad:

[Stroggi]

Hi everyone,

Long time lurker, first time poster. I was hoping to get some feedback on a black/red pox list I've been messing with.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/06-08-15-burning-plague/

// Lands - 22
4x Badlands
2x Blackcleave Cliffs
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Polluted Delta
2x Mountain
4x Swamp
4x Wasteland

// Creatures - 7
3x Bloodghast
4x Young Pyromancer

// Instants - 4
4x Lightning Bolt

// Sorceries - 22
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Innocent Blood
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Smallpox

// Planeswalkers - 4
4x Liliana of the Veil

// Enchantments - 1
1x Sulfuric Vortex

//Sideboard
3x Pyroblast
2x Pyroclasm
3x Rakdos Charm
1x Sulfuric Vortex
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Terminate

//Maybeboard
1x Blightning
1x Electrickery
1x Forked Bolt
1x Hound of Griselbrand
1x Kolaghan's Command
1x Lavaclaw Reaches
1x Leechridden Swamp
1x Mishra's Factory
1x Rakdos's Return
1x Shambling Remains
1x Spinning Darkness
1x Sudden Shock
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Bloodmoon

I think the main deck is pretty self explanatory. Pyromancer and Cabal Therapy are best friends, and Bloodghast plays along nicely as well. Bolt because it's so good, and Vortex as a non-creature wincon that helps us a lot against Miracles. Probes are there to make Cabal Therapy even better, and trigger Pyromancer, although it might not be worth the life loss.

I'm really not sure about the sideboard. I just threw in the next best black and/or red cards that came to mind.

The maybe cards are all ones that I considered. Some of them are powerful cards from traditional Mono-black like Mishra's factory and Spinning Darkness, which maybe could be worked back in, but it might be too hard with red. Others are cards that only this version would have access to, like Blightning, Shambling Remains, or Forked Bolt. Leechridden Swamp seemed like a really cool idea, since Pox has a problem drawing its win conditions, and this version would be able to fetch them up. Maybe too slow though.

I guess the mission statement behind this deck is to provide Pox with better disruption in Cabal Therapy, better threats in Pyromancer, Bloodghast and Sulfuric Vortex, and access to a wider range of Sideboard cards thanks to the red splash.

I've done little testing, a few games against goblins and UWR stoneblade, and it seems as competent as traditional Pox, but maybe not better.

Also, I'm not sure how to make the manabase. Should I just play more fetches?

I'm curious to see what people's thoughts are!

[kombatkiwi]

I guess the mission statement behind this deck is to provide Pox with better disruption in Cabal Therapy, better threats in Pyromancer, Bloodghast and Sulfuric Vortex, and access to a wider range of Sideboard cards thanks to the red splash.


The only part of this that I can really agree with is that Cabal Therapy is possibly improved disruption.

You aren't going to be generating many tokens with 4 Probes as your only cantrips meaning YP is really just like 3 power worth of guy that doesn't die to your symmetrical edicts, so it's like a slight Chimeric Idol upgrade. The therapy interaction is quite good I guess.

Bloodghast is an aggressive card and Pox is not an aggressive deck. There is a real opportunity cost to playing 7 creatures because you can't play Nether Spirit. You support your decision to play Bloodghast by saying it's a 'better threat', while simultaneously cutting all of the Mishra's Factories, which also attack for 2, add mana, and can block.

Bolt is a good card but why play 4 Bolt and only 3 Innocent Blood? You aren't really killing any PWs with Bolt. You're rarely ever going to be burning out your opponent and if you want solutions to things like YP or Mentor that edicts are bad against then monoblack has answers to those already with Disfigure/Dismember.

Sulfuric Vortex is awful in Pox, it's a 3 mana version of The Rack / Shrieking Affliction that also damages yourself. If you're confident in your ability to get to 3 mana then play Cursed Scroll, which only hits your opponent for 2 and also acts as removal.

The only thing red gives you in your sideboard is artifact hate. Red Blasts are extremely lackluster in this deck because you have infinite hand disruption already anyway and you also have a bunch of edicts to make sure that True-Name Nemesis doesn't stick. When plan A is jam a Liliana and keep using the +1 ability you don't want to be trying to hold reactive cards in your hand. Pyroclasm can be replaced by Dread of Night or Engineered Plague and Terminate is not significantly better than the mono-black options available.

The downside to Leechridden Swamp is not the fact that it isn't tutorable but the fact that you need to control 2 black permanents to activate it. Also Mishra's Factory exists so why not just play that instead.

[Stroggi]

You aren't going to be generating many tokens with 4 Probes as your only cantrips meaning YP is really just like 3 power worth of guy that doesn't die to your symmetrical edicts, so it's like a slight Chimeric Idol upgrade. The therapy interaction is quite good I guess.

By my count there are 19 instants/sorceries that are not edicts and net me a token. But I see what you mean. I can't chain cantrips to really abuse Pyromancer. I guess I figured I wouldn't need to if my Pyromancers are the only things surviving on the board, but it's definitely not as impressive as other Pyromancer decks.


Bloodghast is an aggressive card and Pox is not an aggressive deck. There is a real opportunity cost to playing 7 creatures because you can't play Nether Spirit. You support your decision to play Bloodghast by saying it's a 'better threat', while simultaneously cutting all of the Mishra's Factories, which also attack for 2, add mana, and can block.

The main reason I wanted Bloodghasts in the deck was because they offer another good interaction with Cabal Therapy, and fetchlands. I kind of figured instant speed removal (Lightning Bolts), and Pyromancers' tokens would cover the defense. So with that in mind, I don't think I miss Nether Spirit. The only reason I cut factories was because I'm unsure how to work out the Manabase. Also getting factories killed in traditional lists feels pretty bad, so it's nice that Bloodghasts get to come back sometimes.


Bolt is a good card but why play 4 Bolt and only 3 Innocent Blood? You aren't really killing any PWs with Bolt. You're rarely ever going to be burning out your opponent and if you want solutions to things like YP or Mentor that edicts are bad against then monoblack has answers to those already with Disfigure/Dismember.

I didn't want to play as many Innocent bloods because of Pyromancer, but I still wanted to play it because it is still really good. But yeah, I think you're probably right on this one. The more I think about it, the more Spinning Darkness just seems better than bolt in the Mono-black builds.


Sulfuric Vortex is awful in Pox, it's a 3 mana version of The Rack / Shrieking Affliction that also damages yourself. If you're confident in your ability to get to 3 mana then play Cursed Scroll, which only hits your opponent for 2 and also acts as removal.

The card I cut for Sulfuric Vortex was Pox. I think it's more realistic to compare it to something like that, due to its casting cost and symmetrical effect. A comparison to Cursed Scroll doesn't really seem fair, since Vortex is set it and forget it, and it's not nearly as conditional as Rack/Shrieking Affliction. I was kind of hoping adding bolts would not only skew the Vortex race in my favor, but fill in the spot removal void left from Cursed Scroll. Activating Cursed Scroll every turn isn't even always easy, and just dropping a 3 mana enchantment once and then having mana open to cast other cards you draw seems somewhat better than scroll.


The only thing red gives you in your sideboard is artifact hate. Red Blasts are extremely lackluster in this deck because you have infinite hand disruption already anyway and you also have a bunch of edicts to make sure that True-Name Nemesis doesn't stick. When plan A is jam a Liliana and keep using the +1 ability you don't want to be trying to hold reactive cards in your hand. Pyroclasm can be replaced by Dread of Night or Engineered Plague and Terminate is not significantly better than the mono-black options available.

Everything you said about Red Blasts makes a lot of sense. I guess I wasn't thinking of the overall proactive gameplan of Pox when I put those in. Pyroclasm still seems pretty good to me though if you just need to emergency reset the battlefield, but I suppose it alone is not worth splashing red.


The downside to Leechridden Swamp is not the fact that it isn't tutorable but the fact that you need to control 2 black permanents to activate it. Also Mishra's Factory exists so why not just play that instead.

I guess I was thinking they can't hit Leechridden Swamp with creature/artifact removal, so that's somewhat of an upside. If I did play any, it would just be 1 to fetch up when I needed it. But yeah, the 2 black permanents is actually nearly impossible to make happen in this deck. I didn't even test any to see if it was good, so I'm glad you pointed that out so I don't waste time testing it.

Alright, well I appreciate you having a look! I've been testing Mono-Black for the Grand Prix in Seattle in November and I got an urge and gave this a try. I meet with a group and play Legacy on Sundays, so I'm gonna take it to that and see how it does. I'd like for it to do well, but I am skeptical. You raise a lot of good points as to why Mono-Black is better, and I'm inclined to mostly believe you. I still think Cabal Therapy is worth playing and threats like Young Pyromancer and Bloodghast, while maybe individually worse than cards like Nether Spirit or Mishra's Factory, push Therapy over the top. I'm still not even completely convinced that they're any worse than the threat suite in Mono-Black Pox. I suppose there's nothing stopping me from just playing Bloodghasts and Cabal Therapy in a Mono-Black deck.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to look at it!

[bruizar]

By my count there are 19 instants/sorceries that are not edicts and net me a token. But I see what you mean. I can't chain cantrips to really abuse Pyromancer. I guess I figured I wouldn't need to if my Pyromancers are the only things surviving on the board, but it's definitely not as impressive as other Pyromancer decks.


You don't need self-mill cards and tribal sorceries to make Tarmogoyf good either. YP is enabled by playing the game, that's good enough. You don't have to jump through hoops to enable YP man.

[kombatkiwi]

I really like your response

One thing I really want to reiterate is how bad Vortex is though. You can't compare Vortex with Pox because Pox shreds a bunch of both players' resources and Vortex is the complete opposite, not trading with any of the opponent's cards and burning out life points instead. When you play Sulfuric Vortex in your Liliana deck you end up being pulled in 2 very different directions gameplay-wise:


A common pitfall that I see among newer deckbuilders is a draw towards B/R decks that feature both a lot of burn and a lot of Thoughtseize effects. This is natural because black and red are a likely pair according to Magic's flavor and those are among the most iconic effects that each color has to offer.

However, the reality is that Thoughtseize is exactly what a burn deck does not want. The strength of burn is that it's difficult for the opponent to interact with through ordinary means, so if you add Thoughtseize to the deck in the place of a card that would otherwise contribute to your game plan, you're really just giving your opponent exactly what they want—a way to trade off cards against you.

In my experience, such decks are excellent at getting the opponent down to five life but are not the best at actually winning games.
[Reid Duke 2013]

Edit: @bruizar Yes you're right, I just wanted to be clear that it isn't as good in decks that have ponder/brainstorm and without the Therapy interaction YP would not be a card that this deck wants to play.

[jredelstein]

Hi everyone,

Long time lurker, first time poster. I was hoping to get some feedback on a black/red pox list I've been messing with.
...
I'm curious to see what people's thoughts are!

I have been toying with the idea of a red/black pox deck. I recall having a conversation with Hardcore a few months back. I really like the idea of Boom//Bust (I really like blowing up lands) I also remember listing a bunch of potential R/B card to play. I have also really like Sudden Demise as a sideboard card lately

I think the manabase seems fine, even though you don't have as many colorless lands I may still want to play Urborg over Blackcleave. I like that it allows you tap your fetches for mana and save them for a later bloodghast.

I read a comment that you didn't want to play too many innocent bloods because of Young Pyromancer, just want to make sure you realize that Pyromancer triggers on cast and you sacrifice a creature on resolution so you can sac the newly created token. I still like 4 lightning blots as they are great instant speed removal that clears the way for innocent blood or small pox to kill the bigger guys.

The thing I dislike the most about this list in the creature count, Pox blanks opposing removal by not playing creatures until after they are hellbent, young pyromancer does not fit that bill.

I agree with the comment made that Cursed Scroll is probably better that Sulfuric Vortex, but I don't dislike Vortex entirely I just think it is probably better suited to the sideboard(unless you meta is a bunch of Miracles)

[OmniStrata]

The reason why you want Pox style to be monocolor is 4 fold. [whoa, that's a lot :eek:]

Are you running Wasteland? If so, combined with Smallpox and 1-2 Pox effects means you'll be mana strung a lot if you're playing properly. If you get to land #6, you're not disrupting enough. Unless it's turn 22. Low land counts is bad for a multicolor style. Threshold has Brainstorms and Ponders, we don't.

Fetchlands? You want to blow your own land up with Wastelands, Mishra trades, and Poxes and you DON'T want to draw more lands? :laugh:

BB. Lots of your spells have multiple B requirements. Big Pox being my favorite one. If your enemy is also running Wastelands, your deck becomes that much more vulnerable. Threshold tends to Stifle your fetch and now they've effectively Sinkholed you for U. Getting to that second Swamp to cast your spells becomes harder, in theory.

This one is less important, budget. Some of us may not have the money for Bayou and the like. I've proxied BG, BR, BW, and BU 'forms' of Pox and the chances of winning are not massively increased by splashing a color. That's just the nature of the beast. Even with things like Crucible and Life from the Loam, these cards don't disrupt on their own and have conditions that must be met to really start to generate massive card advantage.

I've always liked the old 'laws' of the original thread. If it doesn't generate mana, deal damage, or disrupt your enemy, it shouldn't be in Pox. Though, I broke that law with a single Crucible of Worlds in my build, which I'm tempted to remove for a 3rd Nether Spirit (he gets to field plowing a lot) or Spinning Darkness/Murderous Cut to keep 2 Nether Spirits from stacking my yard.

That B/R list looks fun though.

[bruizar]

A long time ago I was running a pox deck I called Stormpox. It consisted of Storm World, The Rack, Lightning Bolt, Blightning and a Burning Wish board. From what I remember it splashed one Bayou for a SB Reverent Silence, Life from the Loam and Maelstrom Pulse. Other Burning Wish targets I remember were Chain Lightning (Blightning #5), Pox and Pulverize. The deck worked pretty nice but this is years ago.

[Stroggi]

I read a comment that you didn't want to play too many innocent bloods because of Young Pyromancer, just want to make sure you realize that Pyromancer triggers on cast and you sacrifice a creature on resolution so you can sac the newly created token. I still like 4 lightning blots as they are great instant speed removal that clears the way for innocent blood or small pox to kill the bigger guys.

What I meant by that comment was that I didn't want to max out on Innocent Blood, not because I would have to sacrifice Pyromancers to it, but because it does not net me a token when it is cast. Regardless, YP's interaction with Innocent Blood is one of the main reasons it is in the deck.


The thing I dislike the most about this list in the creature count, Pox blanks opposing removal by not playing creatures until after they are hellbent, young pyromancer does not fit that bill.

Yeah, through my testing this has been one of the biggest flaws in the deck. Having Pyromancers killed really sucks, so in that regard, Bloodghasts are better. All in all, I don't feel like the high creature count is a problem since I can pitch Ghasts to Smallpox/Liliana when I can't cast them and get them back later. I also try to think of the creatures as a little bit of extra disruption since they work so well with Cabal Therapy. Regardless, I feel much more confident in my ability to expediently close out the game once I have them locked down with Liliana. I can simply do much more damage per turn with these creatures than with the Mono-Black deck I was playing.


I agree with the comment made that Cursed Scroll is probably better that Sulfuric Vortex, but I don't dislike Vortex entirely I just think it is probably better suited to the sideboard(unless you meta is a bunch of Miracles)

I think I've been convinced by yourself and kombatkiwi to cut Vortex to the sideboard. I'm gonna keep testing it, but in a lot of games I've played so far, I can't pitch it to Liliana fast enough! Probably cutting Probes would make Vortex more manageable, but for the time being I'll test a 1-1 split between the main deck and the sideboard, and then 2 in the board.

[Hardcore]

Playing BR for Burning wish is not a bad plan, even for non-controlish pox builds. Problem is, as always, that to find that tutor when we need it is hard. Especially when our opponent use cantrips to do so, and is looking not for a tool, but a win-con.
The best option is
probably to use fetchlands for purposes of deception.

[Hardcore]

I have run Gurmag Angler a few times now. He is easier to cast but can be blocked. The drawback is not that critical against non-token decks.

[coricho]

Hi guys, I played a lot of pox two years ago and ended up trading the cards after that despite having some kind of success with it.
But now I want to get back Poxing, as it is the funniest deck ever to play.

I like the mainboard but I am not 100% sure yet on thing like dark ritual/hymn vs the 7 1cmc discard spell
I am uncertain about the sideboard too. How do you deal with counterbalance, what is your graveyard hate of choice and why ,etc.

My meta consist of basically no delver deck, not many stoneblade, a lot of goblins, lands, sneak and show, reanimator, dredge, MUD.

Here's the list I ran back then, is it still viable today?

4 Dark Ritual
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Innocent Blood

4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Pox

4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Cursed Scroll
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Nether Spirit

13 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

Sideboard

2 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Plague
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Trinisphere
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Leyline of the Void

Peace.

[Hardcore]

no new cards have been released so your list is up to date.
Only thing is it need to be tweaked for the meta. Many of those decks would be vulnerable to things like maindeck surgical extraction.

[jredelstein]

Hi guys, I played a lot of pox two years ago and ended up trading the cards after that despite having some kind of success with it.
But now I want to get back Poxing, as it is the funniest deck ever to play.

I like the mainboard but I am not 100% sure yet on thing like dark ritual/hymn vs the 7 1cmc discard spell
I am uncertain about the sideboard too. How do you deal with counterbalance, what is your graveyard hate of choice and why ,etc.

My meta consist of basically no delver deck, not many stoneblade, a lot of goblins, lands, sneak and show, reanimator, dredge, MUD.
...


Delver and stoneblade is our bread and butter. If I was to play Mono-Black Pox against a meta of one of each of those decks I'd move the 4 Innocent Blood to the side board and maybe a Night of Souls Betrayal to make room for main deck graveyard hate and maindeck pithing needle. This would not be a traditional build but this is not a traditional meta. Lands/Reanimator/Dredge relie heavily on their graveyards and pithing needle should help with Sneak and Show and Lands which are probably your 2 worst match-ups listed. I'd also want to have access to both Night of Souls Betrayal and Engineered Plague in the sideboard both are good against goblins and if you can get one of each down against dredge it should be game over.

I play G/B pox and my graveyard hate is 1 Bojuka Bog with 3 crop rotations main and a second bojuka bog and 2 extirpates sideboard. I also have access to Abrupt Decay and Pernicious Deed for Counterbalace I also have Golgari Charm but I don't use it against Miracles

[zenitramleirdag]

Hi guys, I played a lot of pox two years ago and ended up trading the cards after that despite having some kind of success with it.
But now I want to get back Poxing, as it is the funniest deck ever to play.

I like the mainboard but I am not 100% sure yet on thing like dark ritual/hymn vs the 7 1cmc discard spell
I am uncertain about the sideboard too. How do you deal with counterbalance, what is your graveyard hate of choice and why ,etc.

My meta consist of basically no delver deck, not many stoneblade, a lot of goblins, lands, sneak and show, reanimator, dredge, MUD.

Here's the list I ran back then, is it still viable today?

4 Dark Ritual
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Innocent Blood

4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Pox

4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Cursed Scroll
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Nether Spirit

13 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

Sideboard

2 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Plague
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Trinisphere
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Leyline of the Void

Peace.

i can see that you're still running the old reid duke list, you're list is almost exactly like mine..
doesn't seem like a good environment for pox to me, remember that we prey on tempo and creature strategies like delver and elves..
sneak and show, reanimator, dredge, MUD are tough matchups for pox..especially reanimator and dredge..
but your sideboard seems to cover all decks that you mentioned so i guess you'd be fine..